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有請秘書長好 請秘書長好 高秘書長早你剛剛的報告我有仔細聽不過我有些議題還是想跟您做一些確認秘書長依照法院組織法第91條法庭上的秩序是由審判長來負責維持那麼我想再請問法警在現場的作用是什麼"},{"start":32.245,"end":42.655,"text":"他要不要接受審判長還有法官的指揮呢請你簡單回答 謝謝法警在法庭上絕對是要接受審判長的指揮"},{"start":44.591,"end":67.436,"text":"那當然剛剛你也提到什麼法警因為有不明確他的職責還是規範不明確那法官有時候過於保守等一下我們就是下面會衍生這些問題秘書長因為大多數人都認為這個司法是正義最後一道防線所以依照這個概念來說法庭無論是這個刑而上的秩序或是這個刑而下的一些"},{"start":68.116,"end":71.859,"text":"建築、牆體等等基本上我們認為這個地方應該是要最安全最有法律尊嚴的地方那建台中這個地震發生了尤其是最近這一次這個等於是這個被告女性被告毆打這個全國律師公會理事長加上民眾這個事件那大部分人會先疑惑會先想說那為什麼法警在現場"},{"start":91.092,"end":108.261,"text":"但是卻沒有進行逮捕就是我先提出幾個問題就是說這個是大部分人會這樣想法警在嘛沒有進行逮捕那我要先請問的是由誰來啟動這個指揮法警在現場要進行逮捕但是在法院包括庭內或庭外麻煩秘書長說清楚 謝謝"},{"start":111.91,"end":126.569,"text":"簡單的回答 庭內鋼工委員報告絕對是庭總審判長的指揮那庭外的部分也就是其實罰警他負有維持秩序可是這一件裡面當然"},{"start":127.229,"end":142.929,"text":"其實現場這位女士她等同於現行犯老實說我必須承認我們法警任何人都可以逮捕現行犯只是她真的遲疑了那另外一個如果除了現行犯以外的強制"},{"start":143.59,"end":148.874,"text":"謝謝秘書長 因為有關現刑犯部分我稍後再跟你繼續討論因為大家對現刑犯可能在定義上有質疑那難道會因為當時如果沒有法官或是說院內的長官來指揮所以他就不能制止 就不能進行逮捕嗎因為我想這部分要請您說清楚因為如果說是法定的不明確也不能推給法警那這個部分還是請秘書長再回答"},{"start":170.592,"end":184.007,"text":"如果沒有人去啟動這個指揮法警不能主動來做嗎其實如果依照我們現行的做法法警是可以自己就可以啟動他當時是真的是過於遲疑"},{"start":185.809,"end":211.672,"text":"是因為你的規範不明確呢還是因為剛剛你也報告到這一點沒有強制等等沒有沒有最重要是說因為法警會受到外界一致質疑在法庭以外我講法庭以外法庭以外的部分他必須要因我們規定是自己要啟動可是因為外界對於法組法的質疑真的讓我們法警們所以這個就是我們要討論的地方嘛他除了現行犯以外他都會有質疑"},{"start":212.933,"end":233.018,"text":"就是在這個地方就是因為法源的關係然後外界的質疑的關係造成法警他對自己的質疑這個是最大的因素我瞭解你現在的說法那請你稍後我是不是請這個張司長這個檢察司長來說明如果說同樣的事情發生在地檢署你們會怎麼處理"},{"start":234.417,"end":235.538,"text":"檢察官指揮"},{"start":265.658,"end":284.395,"text":"現在就是有關現行方就請你稍微我再來請教秘書長秘書長請你看一下這個台中地院事後及時的澄清新聞稿台中地院說什麼呢因傷害罪屬告訴哪論罪第一個理由且供給日無理事長已經立即報警第二個理由第三事發當下法警無法判斷他是否受傷"},{"start":285.396,"end":305.355,"text":"第四所以還是以維持法院秩序為先請問秘書長你能夠接受這個說法或辯解嗎真的很抱歉我自己也不太能夠接受所以對於這件事情我們也跟台中地院那個王院長我有很跟他的仔細的講清楚可能他"},{"start":306.036,"end":319.95,"text":"可是我必須跟委員報告他這個新聞卡這種寫法是他問了法警說你為什麼沒有當場這個制止強力制止他說法警認為這樣他寫的是法警認為這樣"},{"start":322.651,"end":335.68,"text":"衛醫線行為 這是放在你們的官網上喔那個秘書長 這個是很嚴重因為如果是這樣的方法 又灌在官網上的這個澄清稿那以後大家就可以告訴你來論罪大家先打一場啊 只要沒有鬧出人命啊 沒有人提告"},{"start":336.534,"end":363.832,"text":"那是不是就是說也沒有人指揮這個法警那法院指揮大家就在一旁觀看就變成這樣啊所以這一次這是蠻嚴重的我們是非常的抱歉說當初我對王院長他這個新聞稿他這個協法我希望他不是只有在台中地院啦我們希望這個檢討還是要全部的啦那我再請教秘書長請你明確的說在法律上他是現行犯嗎在法律上"},{"start":365.671,"end":367.033,"text":"那我先請秘書長看這個回歸法理"},{"start":382.125,"end":409.277,"text":"請看司法院32院第2505號解釋這邊解釋文寫得非常清楚告訴乃論罪的現行犯適用刑訴第88條是現行犯逮捕規定換言之告訴乃論罪的現行犯一樣是現行犯適用現行犯逮捕的規定這就不關是對照律師有沒有受傷問題喔而是法庭本來就有逮捕的權利但是司法院跟台中紀念好像忘記了這號解釋是嗎"},{"start":411.439,"end":434.371,"text":"報告委員還是平常都沒有在用不需要用沒有沒有沒有絕對要用當初真的我要跟委員報告因為王院長說他的寫法是法警的想法所以我們接受了他這個想法法警的想法正如官網上的一個澄清稿如果是這樣引起大家的誤會我很抱歉真的是任何現行犯不問何人都可以代表真的是這樣"},{"start":436.853,"end":452.54,"text":"請教張司長 法務部是司法行政最高主管機關告訴乃論罪的現行犯 法院的長官或法官到底能不能指揮法警來進行即時逮捕只要是現行犯的話 不論任何人都可以逮捕"},{"start":457.939,"end":475.448,"text":"這市長你現在說可以齁但是沒錯但是現在齁連你們家的高檢署啊2025年10月發布的法律宣導也是直接打臉遞願嘛你看過這個文宣嗎高檢署說得很明白告訴哪論罪的陷阱犯可以逮捕因為告訴哪論只是判決中的訴訟要件這個市長"},{"start":477.589,"end":493.778,"text":"那到底要不要逮捕一個現行犯我們回歸到當初立法的理由一個是保全證據一個就是防止行為人逃亡那再來就是維護公共秩序那當然其中這個維護公共秩序應該是適用本案的一個理由逮捕是為了維護公共秩序並保護人身的安全"},{"start":494.378,"end":508.371,"text":"結果高檢署的法學嘗試好像還勝過地院的應變能力所以市長如果地檢署發生同樣事情那地檢署署長或是檢察官如果他沒有去指揮法警抓人那您會不會懲處"},{"start":510.895,"end":527.091,"text":"我想那個相關的現場狀況都要依照現場的這個市政來做一些判斷那有關這個台中地院的這個回應那我們是尊重台中地院的回應那至於本部的話呢就是都有強化這個法警的相關教育訓練"},{"start":528.332,"end":555,"text":"就是如果沒有人去指揮的時候法警能不能做一些採取一些行動這個部分請你們要釐清這個責任當然我強調法國要明確也不能讓基層的法警受到委屈那我再請問秘書長為什麼台中紀念長官法官可以袖手旁觀那法警不敢抓人那還用這個荒謬的理由你剛剛有盡量解釋說他是用這個法警的說法但是這樣也不對啊對不對你現在在官網就是代表司法院的立場"},{"start":556.34,"end":585.047,"text":"最令人生氣 不好意思 我再講一下這不是突發 剛剛你在報告中也有提到這是蓄意攻擊 為什麼我這樣講呢因為這個女生是 這個女性她是有前科的她攻擊過其他的女律師喔這不是秘密 因為你從大眾 一般新聞就查得到那既然該名當事人他有這個前科啦 有暴力傾向而且對法律 法律專業人有敵意喔很深的敵意那為什麼這次開庭 財中地院毫無做預防措施也沒有這個足夠的警力 也沒有預先警示"},{"start":585.567,"end":605.534,"text":"就現場一塌糊塗應變一塌糊塗你剛剛稍微報告報告到了但是事實上應該都沒有落實啦你雖然有講到這個部分對跟委員報告確實沒有落實他們都有規定可是確實沒有落實但是事實上就沒有嘛就沒有嘛就讓事情就這樣發生沒有沒有跟委員報告"},{"start":606.935,"end":628.133,"text":"沒有事先防範是他們沒有落實可是現場的警力是有到他就是沒有逮捕所以警力是足夠的喔警力是足夠的對於這個有前科的有前科的這個暴力被告已經有發生了是不是說這個那這還是讓它發生嘛所以這個要檢討的事情蠻多的台中立院真的沒有落實"},{"start":628.513,"end":644.44,"text":"因為在法院上如果我們說談司法改革如果連律師的人身安全身邊都沒有辦法收到保障那真的要談未來其他的事就是太遙遠了可是可以跟委員報告台中法院發生這件事以後應該是三天後就連續連續連續大概就是在積極的"},{"start":649.662,"end":654.505,"text":"教導法警 安全管理機制 職務訓練應變原則他們就是一定要落實是最重要的謝謝秘書長還有司長"}]}},{"id":"167997","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167997","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d0265d86f2f18c67af1de975ddefa0847f5bc5cff238b3be44e2a508d436923215f377d25edfc7d75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳俊宇","委員發言時間":"09:09:05 - 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求那我們要納入首批的採購的序列那我們如果能夠落入納入首批的採購序列的話那近期有美方統一向合約商預約的話那就會儘早啟動這個採線的生產那越早預約當然越早交貨好那也請我們國防部"},{"start":248.906,"end":265.981,"text":"能夠掌握相關的期程後續條例通過之後的預算審查審議可能還需要一段的時間國防部是否能夠確保一旦預算順利通過後能夠加速撥款的程序表示我們對此案的重視"},{"start":267.583,"end":285.781,"text":"我們要因為要能夠撥付那款項要預算能夠通過預算如果不能夠通過可能在戶款上就會有問題所以我們當然希望"},{"start":287.135,"end":301.284,"text":"現在是條例案嘛條例案通過以後我們還要送預算案進來那當然就希望預算案能夠儘速通過等預算通過了好那其他三項已經簽署發價書的這個購案包括這個自走炮還有脫勢飛彈標槍飛彈並沒有獲得這個展援"},{"start":305.146,"end":333.522,"text":"那什麼時候會遇到這個相同的問題我們有沒有這個先預期我們現在已經同意那個授權簽署所以現在簽署的部分沒有什麼太大的問題那接下來當然就是也看跟美方爭取是不是一併能夠在那個跟合約商預約之後再來付首期款這樣子好"},{"start":334.349,"end":349.916,"text":"那假使我們未來遇到重要的這個軍售案件預算通過之前美方無法同意給我們展延的狀況那我們國防部和行政院是否有嚴理支付款項避免這個預約時間延宕的一個做法我們有一個"},{"start":360.275,"end":386.591,"text":"幾個可能,如果真的不行,第一個就是說如果特別條例能夠通過那我們就提預算進來,那如果預算案還沒有過但我們是不是能夠獲得一個等於說依照獲得授權在預算法的84條,讓我們能夠先行支付這可能是一個方法,就是說條例通過但預算案還沒有過"},{"start":387.857,"end":401.603,"text":"讓我們同意讓我們先行支付,這是第一個第二個當然如果要動用到第一、二預備金的話這可能現在有一個問題因為我們一百一十五年的總預算"},{"start":403.565,"end":416.501,"text":"還沒有互為審查所以依照預算法的54條在總預算沒有審查通過的情況之下沒有辦法動之第一、二預備金所以還是要等預算通過"},{"start":422.02,"end":437.474,"text":"就這個特別預算的部分有一個方法當然就是條例通過預算案馬上會送進來預算案送進來的時候預算案沒有通過的情況之下是不是可以同意我們動資先行動資一部分這樣子"},{"start":438.895,"end":451.882,"text":"那這樣就比較不會延誤到所以當然我們還是希望預算案能夠儘早通過那預算案如果沒有通過我們就條例通過以後提出預算案的時候就請求能夠先行動之這樣好"},{"start":454.043,"end":468.318,"text":"另外我想跟部長您討論在院版條文當中有一款是強化作戰持續量能相關的裝備說明當中包括有寫到防範共軍海空封鎖切斷補給"},{"start":469.739,"end":483.649,"text":"快速提高各式戰備的存量以及我們興建各式軍備產線等等這也結合到我們先前討論的這個暫時很有可能遭遇到航道封鎖或是陷入長期消耗戰的這種"},{"start":484.97,"end":510.632,"text":"情境當中那我們必須在國防自主的這個量能上有一定的韌性來應對這部分我想請教部長如果我們沒辦法透過特別預算一次性的來提高我們本土軍備的這個產量和存量那必須改以年度公務預算分年來籌建那實際上會有多少多大的一個這個差距"},{"start":511.786,"end":537.74,"text":"跟委員報告主要就是說我們這次會把它編入特別預算來一次性的投資建制武器裝備彈藥跟火炸原料還有滑射藥的這個14條生產線來能夠擴大生產的能量主要就是因為我們如果按照我們現在我們上次有報告按照深湖基金來編列那一年只有4億這個要幾十年才能夠"},{"start":540.882,"end":560.935,"text":"要符合才能夠符合我們現在要建設14條產線的規模那另外一個方法當然就是說我們用這個年度預算來編列那年度預算我們在今天的報告裡面事實上也有提到就是說在我們的持續案裡面我們未來三年的"},{"start":564.377,"end":587.646,"text":"預估這個需求案大概是五千七百億就是說持續案總共有一百六十三我們大概列舉了幾些重要的案件那如果就這個未來三年面臨這個要付五千七百億那一年平均下來是一千九那我們以一百一十五年為例我們的軍頭的預算是一六"},{"start":589.707,"end":604.458,"text":"那可以納尾新增案是84那84案裡面我們又有很多新增案是還沒有沒有把它納入特別預算的那就是用年度預算那這些年度預算有"},{"start":605.438,"end":620.75,"text":"把他納入了這些相關的新增的案項,那個部分就要700,那沒有含,這是沒有含我剛剛提到那些就是我們要一次來籌措特別預算來建的各式的生產線,14條的生產線的話那這樣子勢必會排擠到這個生產線的建制的年這個"},{"start":628.436,"end":645.037,"text":"這個我們的急迫性那如果又把它擺入年度預算,那除非我們的國防預算要大幅的增加,那這個大幅增加今年的比例已經到達百分之十八了,一百一十五年度嘛"},{"start":645.758,"end":658.108,"text":"雖然還沒有審議,但是已經到18%所以在年度預算這樣子,我們一方面又有新增的軍事投資那如果再把整個彈藥的14條市場線擺入的話,我想這空間會幾乎是沒有"},{"start":664.133,"end":684.396,"text":"好,那謝謝部長您的這個回答,那我們這個國防安全不應該是有這個所謂的冷凍期尤其行政院在去年11月底就提出這個特別條例,那美方也在去年12月中就知會他們的國會,我們在3月初才付為審查"},{"start":685.737,"end":699.673,"text":"那即便已經先授權簽署四項的這個發價書程序上仍然就和時間在賽跑那這部分我也請我們國防部在協商期間持續和在野黨和社會大眾來做溝通希望能夠讓這個"},{"start":701.835,"end":718.584,"text":"特別條例還有預算審查的程序 競速的推進也確保後續內容能夠通過的完整性讓我們強化這個防任性的相關規劃都能夠包含在內以建構我們可以嚇阻共軍所需的相關戰力"},{"start":719.804,"end":744.27,"text":"這邊也特別因為剛剛委員問到這一個彈藥的部分因為台美雙方不但在討論這些事情的時候我們一直要落實這個實戰化的訓練我們實戰化訓練結果實彈射擊的訓練的品質跟數量不斷增加那我們也要提高我們的戰備存量因為這美方我想我們台美雙方都一再認為我們可能會面臨一些"},{"start":747.952,"end":766.91,"text":"我們道義國家面臨一些封鎖的環境之下我們一定要不斷提升我們的戰備的一個存量那另外就是暫時會有高消耗所以這些都是希望能夠把它編入我想這個都是大家根據作戰的需求做一個整體的規劃就這個部分也要請"},{"start":770.694,"end":773.578,"text":"所有委員、部分朝野人都能夠予以支持好,謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168007","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168007","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d0265d86f2f18c6749c0544eff234c575334e86b5f84e1ac97994c33887c7127326b0209a3ccd1cb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭國文","委員發言時間":"09:48:45 - 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所以說但是其實在這一次的房價過程當中其實有一個政策其實會變成推波助揚的效果也就是新青安新青安的這一個2.0 1.0討論了很多過去總裁也有講過因為新青安一開始太過於寬鬆造成許多負面的影響央行也付出了很多代價來刪後這是總裁你自己說的新青安的1.0到7月的時候就要到期接下來2.0要上路那過去你認為太寬鬆的部分是什麼"},{"start":128.007,"end":134.149,"text":"是不是他那個寬限其實從3年改做5年應該不是800變成1000或是那個貸款還款的時限從30變40到底是哪一個太寬鬆哪一個你會擔心如果說2.0出現的話會不會重蹈覆轍"},{"start":146.292,"end":166.883,"text":"有沒有什麼呼籲事實上委員也點到了問題了啦你也點到了問題啦不過呢我在想以財政部還有相關的部會來看就是說包括內政部啦 中央銀行啦 金管會啦這些都有在 你要不要喊話一下在那央行的高度你認為是不是要縮短"},{"start":167.973,"end":196.823,"text":"寬限期寬限期如果說據我了解就是說財政部的資料顯示就是說很多一部分都是在三年以下就75%以下都是在75%以下25%在炒作25%是在五年我現在請教你的看法不是財政部的說明那我是總覺得就是說當然啦"},{"start":198.884,"end":207.513,"text":"就一個弱勢者來看的話他五年也許對他是好的不過呢我說我個人的看法我覺得就是說"},{"start":213.598,"end":232.267,"text":"一個寬限期如果太長的話不好一個寬限期太好的時候呢就這個借款人如果你如果說寬限期太長的時候不好五年太長嘛我們現在慢說五年是不是太長我們要說如果太長的話呢會導致他的一個財務的規劃呢比較鬆散"},{"start":236.789,"end":241.012,"text":"會鬆懈那如果說我們讓他縮短一點的時候也許他的一個財務的規劃呢會比較謹慎那這樣的話呢對他也很好對銀行也很好你實在太客氣了總裁我想你大概已經點到說那個寬限期確實是造成你困擾一個很重要的原因因為以前講過很困擾啦這個確實會有造成這種現象拉回來說"},{"start":262.33,"end":276.469,"text":"剛剛在講說你把第二戶放寬到六成的這個部分普遍社會反應是好的一來很重要的關鍵原因是因為今年已經陷入這個交屋潮你如果沒有的話你可能會造成違約潮"},{"start":278.25,"end":292.717,"text":"違約草的話一般的購買方他可能會造成違約金會被拿走之外也會造成許多的困擾所以你現在的這個反應是好的我想你用意可能是怕造成這樣的結果但是我必須說"},{"start":294.337,"end":322.899,"text":"從房貸的這個平均利率的部分 販款利率的部分從2024年的這個8月就是您在實行第七波的管制的2.5%到2.88%到今年的部分已經到2.60%到3.30%喔可是你去看銀行這兩年的販款那個利率利率不用講啦 存款利率不用講販款的部分大宗的周轉金的販款是下降的消費的貸款利率是下降的唯獨購屋的貸款利率是上升的對"},{"start":323.88,"end":337.445,"text":"而且是平均上升的0.16這代表什麼因為銀行嚴格審查這個房屋的貸款案件之後呢變造成啦是一個貸方的市場借方的市場也就是消費者自願提高利率來爭取這個貸款的成數"},{"start":339.266,"end":357.55,"text":"有這種現象那同樣的問題啊現在房價高居不下的情況底下你即便讓他那個比較喘一口氣五成變六成可是你利率的負擔沒有下降啊對不對你看看喔央行所做的統計喔去年的部分呢本國銀行賺了6175億比前年呢增加了773億成長了14.3%喔"},{"start":363.231,"end":378.878,"text":"那就是說銀行現在再加上今年是交通潮會不會姿態更高會不會把這個利率拉得更高你結果買第二戶的人他承受的壓力就會更大莊太第二戶的人是什麼樣的人你們報告中也寫得很清楚嘛"},{"start":379.298,"end":399.144,"text":"你們肯定多數的第二戶都是屬於自己或家人自住嘛也就是所謂換屋啦、就學啦、就業啦、需求啦或鄉下老宅不能住的情況底下才巴不得已再買第二戶嘛不是嗎總裁這種情況底下這樣的利率負擔總裁你要不要跟銀行喊一下話不要趁火打劫可不可以"},{"start":401.151,"end":428.571,"text":"我想就是說就銀行他的一個放款的一個practice他的一個實務來看的話第一個他的定價還是以風險為考量啦每次都說風險管理但是我就問你嘛同樣的放款有兩個下降的一個是上升嘛現在這就是信用管制的後遺症啊銀行就是藉由你的大刀"},{"start":429.752,"end":444.212,"text":"來砍向老百姓啊這個我也跟委員報告你不殺柏仁 柏仁是因你而受傷或死亡啊不不不你不想要這樣子 結果就這樣子了總裁因為就是說你要約束一下這些銀行啊"},{"start":445.794,"end":451.018,"text":"不然那個承擔罪過是在你身上啊總裁我在做善意的提醒我不是在做譴責啦委員我們針對委員這個議題啊我們再來深入的跟銀行來了解對有道理嘛"},{"start":460.945,"end":484.21,"text":"你應該找他來喝個咖啡 喝個茶 喝個白開水都好不要造成那個購買方的壓力第二戶就相信報告的第二戶大部分都自助你自己寫的啊 對不對那如果第二戶都要自助的話第一個原因就是利息你不應該負擔過重嘛不是嗎第二個原因是什麼這個六成有沒有機會再變成七成有沒有可能"},{"start":485.393,"end":508.609,"text":"假以時日啊如果等同一支柱的話就跟第一戶差不多啦如果您的判斷是如此的話還是要保留一個戰略彈性空間將來以後再說我想委員的這個意見我們來深入來跟銀行來討論因為每一家銀行的practice是不大一樣的普遍是增加您的報告就講了獲利率增加14.3%這是你寫的"},{"start":511.851,"end":537.779,"text":"所以說他很清楚嘛他獲利的來源在哪裡嘛銀行 你很溫柔的對待他吧這個貸款的比例增加但是貸款的利息卻更加的沉重總裁 我是跟您分享民間的一些看法我不希望你在執行國家政策當中負有太多的一個不必要的罪名啦好不好 謝謝啦"},{"start":538.579,"end":558.431,"text":"結果是銀行在受利 結果你在背黑鍋對總裁不公平嘛 不是嗎對啊 這第一點嘛第二點 那個該放的時候你如果適當的時候六成有沒有可能變七成總裁你心裡頭有一個底嘛 對不對 好不好既然你認定他是自助好 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因為外面在修繕 所以你內心也在修繕?蛤?"},{"start":22.674,"end":27.397,"text":"不會 不會喔?外面是亂的 我們新的是靜的你不會睡不著覺?"},{"start":27.397,"end":31.259,"text":"不會?應該不會吧?台北這樣一直發生這麼多呢?"},{"start":31.259,"end":32.699,"text":"北的這麼厲害你是不是會丟一下丟一下?"},{"start":37.163,"end":52.242,"text":"我們要了解情況我們要了解情況但是呢在做決策的時候一定心要很平靜要很定可是現在已經匯出去外資賣了匯出去才八千多億了一直出力一直出力現在不堅定"},{"start":54.791,"end":75.616,"text":"我想這個事件導致資金的外流到目前為止我覺得這是可控的而且我覺得股市如果說上漲到某一個程度來做某種程度的correction的調整應該也是正常的"},{"start":75.976,"end":102.221,"text":"所以你的意思好像百貨文講啦台股漲太多啦藉這個機會拉回來整理很正常啦我們不用怕啦跟你說的意思就這樣子對吧到目前為止我覺得台灣的經濟的成長各個層面來講都是還是很穩健的我問你喔台股有沒有被低估有沒有超低有沒有"},{"start":103.773,"end":109.597,"text":"有沒有超跌如果說我們從去年的2800多點上漲到35000多點然後現在是collection到33000 32000的話我覺得還是正常的"},{"start":120.786,"end":128.949,"text":"所以跌的很正常就對了 是不是還算正常的所以你說跌的很正常 洋洋總裁點兩點 台灣股市跌的很正常我現在講話可以嗎當然啦 我跟委員報告啦 我不是股市的專家啦 但是呢"},{"start":142.074,"end":156.572,"text":"價格 包括規律 對這個股市 對什麼的一個金融資產喔上上下下那都是正常的那只是說喔 比較怕說喔 它上漲得太高啊 結果跌下來跌得太重我們前一陣子有沒有上漲太高"},{"start":160.814,"end":167.356,"text":"我個人我不是股市的專家我也不要在這邊做某種的一個那這樣的話有些股民有些時候他聽了不爽快我想我還是不要發表意見好了"},{"start":179.673,"end":205.999,"text":"你剛才已經發表很多了 不用了這個楊金榮總裁頂兩頂現在股市向下是修正 正常狀況什麼都不怕 你的意思是什麼我的意思是說什麼都不必怕不是 還是要謹慎啦投資這種每一個人的投資的動機都不大一樣所以我在這邊講的時候我沒辦法對每一個人的投資的動機"},{"start":207.239,"end":209.041,"text":"你今天現在講說我們央行估算優價一年85塊錢一桶"},{"start":224.361,"end":226.704,"text":"現在我們了解大部分的機構都是他現在的中位數大部分都是說85塊可是萬一漲到150"},{"start":240.744,"end":269.065,"text":"那到時候再重新再做一百五十什麼概念啊找到一朋友就代表打仗啊那個委員我也可以這麼說啦那如果漲到兩百塊呢那漲到兩百五十塊呢我總覺得這種機率呢都不是很高以目前來講的話都不我也可以說那漲到一千塊啊那這個機率就幾乎近乎零啊"},{"start":270.516,"end":278.898,"text":"所以這個還是要看機率啦你要小心喔 你要假設賺了一千塊 怕死喔我說機率是零 一年只會賺到一千塊所以我的意思就是說 在這邊講說他要賺到哪裡 要有依據不要隨便就說我是會兩百塊啦 會升百塊啦因為現在已經有一百多啦 沙烏地阿拉伯的官員講說會一百八啊"},{"start":297.423,"end":321.571,"text":"我想他在講這句話的意思是說可能會漲到這個某一個時點會漲到這個點但是全年的平均有可能嗎會那這個就是說他的機率是怎麼樣所以這個是要用機率去如果打仗打到年底就可能啦怎麼不可能打仗一直打到年底就可能不過這個機率也不高"},{"start":325.177,"end":344.144,"text":"這個機率也不高因為從我剛剛在講我剛剛是要從歷史的經驗來看然後第二個我就說美國的副總統他也就說可能是四桌到六桌我覺得美國的態度可能我們會稍微應該要比較相信一點"},{"start":345.046,"end":373.066,"text":"所以就是再兩個禮拜再進出我也不敢這麼說因為他也沒辦法做他也沒辦法做這樣的一個所以這個是兩兆之間這個油價一直漲會產生全球性的通膨這句話對吧他會上全球的通膨看他第一個他漲的幅度是怎麼樣這是第一個第二個呢每一個國家的漲幅可能就不一樣"},{"start":374.465,"end":389.148,"text":"每一個國家的帳戶就會不一樣為什麼因為每一個國家他的對石油的需求對石油的需求他就不一樣啊我們台灣的需求相較相較韓國相較日本我們需求是相較比他們還低"},{"start":391.067,"end":404.582,"text":"我們都進口的相較低對對對我們有進口但是呢他進口的量還是比我們高你講另一邊 你講絕對值但是比例我們是很高的那央行我看你這裡要說你們隨時準備銀子就是要維持在32塊錢對不對"},{"start":409.913,"end":426.34,"text":"你說我們要維持在32塊錢什麼32塊錢 匯率匯率我們還一直都說匯率是由供需來決定你們是在表面說什麼我們供需決定 沒有確實就是這樣子 市場就是供需但是如果說對於市場有影響到我們金融的秩序"},{"start":437.185,"end":455.422,"text":"那是什麼時候?那就是他逼迫32塊去試啦沒有 這32塊 我覺得第一個 中央議員一直都不會就說我們升的防線是在哪裡 我們貶的防線是在哪裡都沒有 所以沒有陽性的防線就丟了都沒有 甚至我要跟委員報告 就說"},{"start":461.568,"end":478.082,"text":"剛剛我也一直在強調中央銀行在現在目前這個通膨的一個議題上第一個我們要比較注意的是輸入性通膨輸入性通膨到目前沒有輸入性通膨的話就跟我們的會員有關"},{"start":486.433,"end":492.442,"text":"這個台幣的改版喔全部一百塊 兩百塊 五百塊 一千塊 兩千塊 都不要改嗎"},{"start":494.584,"end":499.508,"text":"我們現在還是在考量不過跟其他的先進國家它的鈔票的張數不是張數就是說幾張幾張像有的都有8張的有7張的有6張的有5張的也有4張是比較低4張也有但是大部分都是在5張以上我們是5張"},{"start":524.324,"end":530.529,"text":"可是我給你算一下100塊錢的市佔率大概25到35%200塊錢小於1%2000塊3到5%1000塊40到50%500塊15到25%200跟2000就不要了"},{"start":544.608,"end":551.57,"text":"不過每一個國家他有幾張幾張他也不是說哪一張比較低他就把它淘汰掉沒有 這個是一個搭配剛剛委員就說那這張不要 這個就你個人來看啦整體來看的話 這個搭配起來是很好的啊"},{"start":572.294,"end":599.631,"text":"兩百塊那個市場的效益一拍那我跟你 我跟委員報告事實上呢 很多國家的二字頭他的那個流通率也都很低但是呢 他們也有說說流通率低很低然後他就把它拿剔除掉沒有你總共要花多少錢做改版花多少錢做改版我們也已經講得很清楚啊如果說如果改版的話呢一張大概會增加成本1.5塊錢"},{"start":601.032,"end":602.175,"text":"那現在就要看總量嘛因為總量現在50億"},{"start":610.018,"end":637.145,"text":"不一定不一定啦不一定先讓我跟委員報告啦就是說我們反正都用張數來計算1.5下一次你們就講是50億啊沒有那大概就是說那是但是呢說實在說現在50億很多還有很多是多少多少第七波的信用管制啊從打草房其實房市現在幾乎已經硬著陸了在硬著陸之後現在有硬著陸嗎"},{"start":640.066,"end":657.314,"text":"在運作路的路上所以你現在我們很密切的注意所以你現在維持市場穩定力放寬第二戶可以貸款次數增加就是想要不要讓他一直運作路要他變成運作路這樣講對嗎"},{"start":658.674,"end":661.898,"text":"我們還是在強調要軟著陸啦這個就是我們的基調就軟著陸啦要讓它軟著陸現在我們就說黃價是在反轉的開端而已啦開端而已"},{"start":675.694,"end":696.848,"text":"我來跟你提醒一下多少的專家說現在房市是正在走向運走路所以央行才出手讓它變成走路我們密切的關注我們密切的注意好謝謝謝謝賴委員下一位請郭國文委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"168003","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168003","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d0265d86f2f18c6754525c1e035870a67f5bc5cff238b3be44e2a508d4369232f2e44bbea44e61d05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳永康","委員發言時間":"09:32:56 - 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1,Lock 2,Lock 3這個序列去做那我們的部分當然也跟過去的軍購案一樣是在我們的交易完了之後沒有任何衍生的法律問題以及財務問題的時候做結案的動作"},{"start":127.273,"end":149.247,"text":"我們希望能夠掌握這個因為過去監察院曾經在這上面因為看到我們雖然是裝備交運完了那個尾款還有結餘但是因為跟美方的溝通過程中間其他國家還沒有結案所以那個錢還不能夠從我們在美國的帳戶回到我們國內這個希望我們也能夠跟監察院這部分做溝通"},{"start":149.987,"end":167.213,"text":"這個部分跟委員做個說明,我們在109年的建案作業規定裡面,針對結案的條件的這個部分,我們已經跟在先前就已經跟審計部達成一個基礎共識,就是我們在最後一批只要不是遇到法律問題的"},{"start":168.413,"end":183.368,"text":"那我們會要求美方在最後一批的時候把錢一併匯回那如果是遇到法律問題的時候則依照美方法律問題處理的方式來界定後續的時間但是這個案子就會在那個時候做一個現況結案"},{"start":184.955,"end":206.487,"text":"很好我们肯定我们对美方的沟通因为过去在审计监察中间常常把这个认为是我们国家就是我方要单一承担责任其实这个是涉及到美国内部这个管制的管理的方法下面这张图片我们是对整个我们军事投资计划与财政负担能力的评估那还是前提一下"},{"start":207.523,"end":235.132,"text":"这个编列特别预算一次性统筹建立战力那么115年的国防预算到达GDP的3.32百分比我们的预算需求的本质是建立韧性及不对称战力那么十年建军武林兵整过去在这个贵部的说明中间也讲得很清楚那我们希望在而后聚焦就是给我们一点弹性的时间并不仅仅止于一直强调LOA"},{"start":236.152,"end":260.834,"text":"其实如果我们在军总提出这个构想经过国防部的同意报到行政院获得肯定也就是说LOR for PNA或者是LOA这个过程的时间将来可以纳入让我们立法院的同仁了解这是一个弹性的时间而不是等到最后看到美方国会通过LOA签署这个时候拨款付款的时间非常短"},{"start":261.334,"end":289.331,"text":"那下面这个我就不做下面因为昨天下午这个部内才送来的这个资料就是我们讲到后续公务预算全售其零件维持费我们看到一个有潜在的风险这个我下去后会跟这个组织局长做一个沟通在这边我们不做延迟上说明或解读的认差这个年度预算维持被压缩会产生什么结果"},{"start":290.111,"end":304.208,"text":"那么现有装备的战备水准有没有直接影响到或是后续后勤整个的料配件一次发现短缺的现象那么降低年度预算弹性跟规划的品质"},{"start":305.069,"end":320.136,"text":"延後壓縮新裝備後來因為我們的裝備一定有個重疊期並不是新裝備一到舊的就太足所以在新舊裝備重疊過程不只是人員轉換訓練轉換料配件的消耗會比較大像這個"},{"start":322.299,"end":336.828,"text":"M1A2坦克车到了但是Oshkosh的拖车平板拖车还没到那将来还有一些料配件这个都我们关注希望支持让陆军能够在这个接装训练的过程中能够顺利完成立刻提升战备"},{"start":337.668,"end":360.01,"text":"那下面这个呢就是我们如何解除潜在风险我们是列出了一些这个都是需要大家进一步的讨论我相信啊我们在野德同仁啊跟主计局也好在站规室也好我们欢迎啊我们大家一起啊共同做一点沟通我们也希望在这个政党协商过程中间能够把一些认知"},{"start":360.99,"end":374.373,"text":"有解释落差或者是贵单位还有地方可以强化把时间压缩这个空间我们大家一起努力我现在把这个时间留给这个足迹局长您做一点回复是"},{"start":376.175,"end":395.497,"text":"我也好 感謝委員的指導有關國防財力資源的從我們爭取到後面的運用我們會盡可能的在讓它發揮的最大的效益剛剛委員特別提到說包含作業維持費與軍事投資到底它要一個怎麼樣的一個比例其實我們最近幾年"},{"start":396.178,"end":425.676,"text":"不管是在作業維持費不管在軍事投資我們都有一些的成長我們在編列的時候也會特別考慮到作業維持費它的預算需求也不能被壓縮所以我們在軍事投資新增建案的同時我們會去檢討汰除一些舊的裝備我們把這些額度能夠釋放出來加上我們新增建案也會併案去檢討兩年期的備份料件所以整體的從軍投案的建案到作業維持費的一個預算的編列我們都會整體去做一個考量"},{"start":425.976,"end":433.953,"text":"我們也感謝委員的指導我們下去後會跟委員共同來討論看如何來把它做得更好謝謝委員好 謝謝 鮑布長你有沒有指導"},{"start":435.566,"end":455.37,"text":"剛剛委員有提到了,我了解沒有錯,委員也是認為如果說等到發價書來的話,因為相關簽署跟付款的時間相當的急迫所以我們過去在做預算的時候,我們都是在先前有美方有供售意願的時候,那我們拿到初步報價"},{"start":457.931,"end":479.091,"text":"同時我們有,我們的相關的建案程序完成之後,我們都是先行送進來那大家都有時間來審議這個案子那這個案子到最後等到美方、智慧國會或者是發家署來的時候,我們預算案已經通過了所以我們預算案通過,我們就簽署發家署付款,這個都沒有問題"},{"start":480.185,"end":503.483,"text":"那今天遭逢的困境就是我們現在有很多案子發酵出來但是因為案子還沒有過那我們就會有剛剛所講的這些問題不斷的會浮現我們也了解部內同仁努力跟承受的壓力那麼這邊也再次提出建議就是說如果我們提出這個所謂的LOR的過程中間"},{"start":504.284,"end":526.697,"text":"如果已经获得共识建议部内同仁先到立法院不一定要真到委员会里面也就是跟部分的委员先做沟通这样子我们在横向沟通的时候大家对部里面的需求跟限制因素更了解更清晰就是说比较容易内部的协商我想以上提出这个建议好谢谢委好谢谢部长"}]}},{"id":"168001","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168001","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d0265d86f2f18c676ae4bb73867eaaae5334e86b5f84e1ac44e2a508d4369232b00dc349e71b59095ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李彥秀","委員發言時間":"09:25:13 - 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那我們有沒有預估過 如果當然這不是我們預見 希望預見到的但是很多事情不是掌握在我們身上如果油價是後續持續的就是說戰爭持續的變成是區域性的戰爭因為現在看到的不只是荷姆茲海峽的問題"},{"start":82.758,"end":93.428,"text":"萬一如果曼德海峽也遭到封鎖的話這個是連接紅海亞丁灣跟印度洋整個歐洲跟亞洲重要的航道也就是全世界"},{"start":94.744,"end":117.515,"text":"非常重要兩個運輸油的航道都受到衝擊跟影響所以身為央行的總裁我們就不可能只有一種劇本去做預估對不對 總裁你了解我的意思不是掌握在我們身上油價在一百塊以上在一百二十塊以上在一百五十塊以上"},{"start":118.755,"end":124.442,"text":"我們都要有不同的版本去做準備波動這些不只是價格的問題而是波動超大這個波動太大的話隨時波動再大後續可能會隨時再飆升這個衝擊影響總裁你有沒有去做這樣內部的預估跟因應"},{"start":137.077,"end":141.42,"text":"因為這個後續對於我們的利息要不要升息都會有衝擊影響是 我想中央銀行也不會就是說一開始的時候我們的預測的情境就是用非常的就是說把它假設說它是中東全面的戰爭而且持續的時間到九月"},{"start":160.535,"end":185.254,"text":"到今年年底 我想一個預測的機構呢不可能做這樣的一個情境的分析所以你沒有說是 如果說有這樣所以有委員在講就是說 會這樣 當然會我們現在就是說 所以我剛剛也有在談就是說我們3月的時候呢 我們是用85塊 全年85塊來做情境的分析那"},{"start":186.334,"end":193.081,"text":"你這個85塊的標準現在都已經到100了所以你那85塊的標準是用我們預計油價 政府預計油價委員 我跟你們報告就是說80現在都 您的意思是說現在都已經到100多了 110幾了不 那個是暫時 現在目前"},{"start":204.471,"end":209.455,"text":"那如果說以整年來看的話從當時的58.3%我們的預測58.3%現在把它調升到85%的話那已經是上漲45%了全年所以你是整年的預估你用整年預估所以你的判斷就是說中東的局勢會在短時間之內獲得控制也不會"},{"start":228.071,"end":233.314,"text":"我們也不需要去預估120塊萬一油價剩下120或150的版本不需要不是因為隨著時間的經過那我們的情景的分析呢就必須要做調整也許啊也許就是說你現在85的那如果說它的發展呢是很快的就結束了以後它往下的話那也有可能到70啊"},{"start":253.044,"end":275.562,"text":"因為我今天時間有限我要提醒的是我當然希望局勢可以盡速獲得控制這大家都不希望看到但是那個局勢是什麼樣的變化沒有人可以掌握不是掌握在我們手中到底會是一個什麼樣的狀態跟變化所以未來油價假使是120 150"},{"start":278.144,"end":281.985,"text":"會是一個什麼樣的狀態?我們有沒有什麼樣的因應的工具?有啦!當然有!當然有!中央銀行不會就坐在那邊,我們不會就去...所以這就是我要問你的嘛!所以這就是我的重點!我想呢,第一個,政府的一個穩定油價的一個措施這個平穩的機制呢,它是不是也會考量到加大?"},{"start":302.651,"end":308.418,"text":"如果說郵價一直往上的話這是第一個那第二個中央銀行呢我們中央銀行的一個職責呢有兩個第一個職責呢就是說我們要防止這個輸入性的通貨膨脹"},{"start":317.25,"end":338.901,"text":"輸入性通膨膨脹跟我們的匯率有關所以呢也就是說我們的匯率一定要讓它穩定這是第一個那第二個呢如果物價持續的在往上漲的時候呢那麼可能市面上的一個通膨的預期呢它可能就會形成那這個時候那中央銀行可能就必須要朝緊縮的貨幣政策來執行"},{"start":342.159,"end":359.368,"text":"緊縮貨幣政策 升息也是總裁 那我要請問你 這個戰爭持續的拉長就是引發最近有一個塑膠之亂我想你應該有聽 因為所有的東西都在漲所有東西都在漲 包括醫療手套什麼都在漲那這個塑膠之亂後續衍生的問題"},{"start":364.53,"end":386.335,"text":"這個就不是只有政府我們控油控油就是油電不漲動漲電價重漲油價或來做補貼可以去做後續的處理那這些因應的政策跟方法你有什麼建議包括我們現在包括現在我先提一個比較具體我們這一次全球的尿素跟硫磺漲了35%跟45%其實這些都是從荷末茲海峽運輸進來"},{"start":392.056,"end":415.506,"text":"戰爭一旦拖長下一波農產品價格會不會也是持續的上漲我跟委員報告行政院的一個穩定物價小組它有包括了農業部它有包括了公平會它有包括了經濟部相關的部會包括我們中央銀行所以也就是說"},{"start":416.646,"end":437.103,"text":"我剛剛所說的它的穩定的油價還有穩定其他相關物品的原料的物價行政院相關的部會都會去關注它那中央銀行的部分我剛剛也已經說明了我們中央的部分就是剛剛我所說的在匯率方面 在利率方面我們如何來配合政府的維穩的一個措施"},{"start":443.297,"end":466.439,"text":"所以總裁就是說我剛才提到的就是說原油的漲幅後續整個原物料的上漲其實都是帶動所有的各行各業可能都會漲我剛才講包括醫療手套塑膠藥罐藥師也預估說這些醫材未來的漲幅會高達三成"},{"start":467.6,"end":492.968,"text":"我最近有聽到今年要選議員的朋友跟我講今年刊版帆布已經公告所有帆布要漲兩成所以所有的東西都在漲那這些能源價格上漲對國內物價的傳導的效果影響程度其實是非常大的所以我擔心的不是只有今年1.9%CPI只有1.9有無聊你剛剛預估有可能會超過1.9%"},{"start":497.685,"end":519.402,"text":"這個我就說 我也認為就是說第二季這是一個關鍵不過呢 我講說第二季是我們禮監事會的第二季的時候呢那這是一個關鍵 不過我也跟委員報告事實上呢 我們每個月我們都對這個情境的分析做不同的一個的蒐集資料然後做不同情景來做分析"},{"start":522.079,"end":537.008,"text":"那你有沒有給行政院萬一如果CPI超過2的話行政院就要很多的工具進場我想行政院你看看行政院也非常大動作的就是說你看沒多久他就有一個聯合的一個穩定小組的一個會議那我也跟那個委員報告那個二屋戰爭的時候"},{"start":544.292,"end":549.876,"text":"那二溫戰爭的時候那是供給面跟現在的是一樣的二溫戰爭現在這也是美伊戰爭這個戰爭所導致的供給面呢一定是要供給面的措施來比較有效因為我覺得這是一個跨部會的合作是是是沒有錯穩定物價包括你手邊可以的工具財政部可以的工具我覺得是不是都要硬硬做好準備因為我今天議題很多"},{"start":567.649,"end":586.164,"text":"我想問一個新青安2.0的事情2.0你的看法過去新青安1.0在實施的時候很多人認為說跟你的央行打房的政策事實上是相互衝突的那我們現在2.0要上路而新的2.0有幾個政策就是包括5年縮短成3年取消部分利息的補貼還有年齡限制成為80條款"},{"start":588.746,"end":610.238,"text":"你對於這個新政案2.0行政院其他包括財政部有沒有找你溝通過你的看法對於2.0應該做什麼樣的調整如果2.0要上路的話你有什麼看法我想第一個我要跟委員回答的就是說第一個就是說是不是他新政案跟我們的選擇新政案是不是有衝突我覺得事後來看的話是一致的"},{"start":610.638,"end":634.907,"text":"因為我們都對對手過足對弱勢者給他一個信用所以你支持新西蘭2.0目前我在媒體上看到2.0政策你全部都支持沒有沒有沒有當然所以也就是說他有一些的副作用但是現在副作用在要到7月的時候呢這個部分呢行政院那有也有找我們中央議員溝通那現在正是大家正在討論的時候"},{"start":636.027,"end":652.234,"text":"好所以目前看起來就你的說法星期二2.0我在媒體上看到新的三個勝策跟方向基本上看起來你好像應該是支持的他那個是我不知道那個他的消息來源是從哪裡來的不過我跟委員報告現在他的final他的最終的版本還沒有出來"},{"start":657.932,"end":679.602,"text":"目前我看到都有找你溝通過就對了而且呢幾次幾次大家都有在溝通好就是目前在媒體上看到新千安2.0政策方向上是找央行溝通過的而且看起來是央行跟行政院跟財政部的版本是一致的沒有衝突的對好謝謝林委員到最後應該是一致的好謝謝林委員下一位諮詢委員請賴世寶委員"}]}},{"id":"168000","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168000","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d0265d86f2f18c670524e39a87afc5a05334e86b5f84e1ac44e2a508d4369232b00dc349e71b59095ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"09:13:18 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PE PP等宣告不可抗力並同步減產那本席關心通膨的問題請央行說明如果中東戰爭的持續弱物價壓力持續的擴大進而"},{"start":227.811,"end":240.12,"text":"影花第二輪的通膨效應央行四月份你認為要如何去因應呢我想就是說現在目前大家都非常的關心通膨"},{"start":242.282,"end":246.945,"text":"那以目前來講的話通膨我們認為就是說到目前我們把它上修到1.8那這個情景是用85塊從我們原先就是說油價是從58.3我們把它調高到85塊那這個調補就45%85塊是全年不是說某一個時點是全年"},{"start":266.655,"end":277.78,"text":"那如果說這個它的油價現在85塊呢全年85塊大部分的機構大部分都是用85塊那要是再往上呢往上的話呢那通膨率就會往上如果說到100塊100塊左右的時候那通膨率就會往上調"},{"start":288.664,"end":297.667,"text":"不過呢我們有初步的這個做一個情景假設說全年到100的話那這樣的話通膨大概會在1.9左右1.9會到1.9那個莊財因為"},{"start":304.93,"end":331.865,"text":"關於主權基金設立的問題總裁在不同場合做過很多的說明我想這一點我就不要再追問本席想了解央行對AI人工智慧運用在投資的看法以挪威的主權財富基金為例利用人工智慧AI管理投資組合曾多次也揪出投資組合中可能涉及強迫勞動"},{"start":333.106,"end":353.677,"text":"腐敗或詐欺等等這些問題的公司使其能先行的邁出避免人受潛在的損失那如果未來設立主權基金央行是否贊成主權基金管理應用AI人工智慧來輔助行政院官員的決策我想"},{"start":355.878,"end":377.688,"text":"這個挪威的這個做法我覺得也是值得去參考不過現在目前我們的主權基金還是在正在發展當中那當然我想這個主管基金現在目前是國安會在歐元來我希望央行能夠為許籌謀是是好謝謝"},{"start":380.089,"end":407.302,"text":"因為近期我們受到中東戰爭的影響許多原物料波動過去央行曾表示新版鈔票單張印製成本由現在的差不多3.5元提高到5元如果鈔票及原物料採購成本異常飆高央行是否會暫緩整個鈔票的改版我想是不會啦"},{"start":408.462,"end":436.235,"text":"那絕對一定要做就對了是是是那你絕對一定要做你等於是變成3.5元飆到5元你認為老百姓人民怎麼看3.5元到1.5元你看看齁就是說以24年24年從3.5漲到5元我如果是用直覺的來計算的話應該是不算高不算高對 應該算不算高如果1.5元"},{"start":437.415,"end":454.982,"text":"如果鈔票的紙及原物料採購成本異常的飆高這個其實像央行你們應該要考慮暫緩因為本席齁我請教總裁這個印製新鈔成本五元是地板價還是天花板價"},{"start":457.864,"end":475.155,"text":"我想再看後續的發展是怎麼樣委員一直在關心這個成本改版的招券的紙張的成本但是我也要跟委員報告"},{"start":477.216,"end":493.286,"text":"金融安全就是說這個金融安全應該比我們所想的這個成本的高呢還要重要對應該是這樣子不然的話如果說到時候因為現在科技現在說起來是科技是非常的發達"},{"start":494.167,"end":521.818,"text":"我知道啊我們二月四年來改版算是在其他先進的國家來看的話算是非常慢的非常慢的所以我們應該要就是說應該要加快進步那個總裁嗯央行舉辦新操改版的網路票選結果前五名分別是島嶼生態保育動物之美民俗捷徑還有和諧共榮保育植物之美對"},{"start":522.858,"end":543.512,"text":"那目前發行的鈔票共五款是否就責定這五個主題來進行設計還是另有其他的考量我想這個十名甚至十二名之內我們都可以考量那個另外因為你正面正環正環就不少的那個總裁因為這個"},{"start":548.442,"end":565.607,"text":"央行有負責中央印製廠負責外交部的護照印製護照內的內頁的景點包括台北101、淡水漁人碼頭、復工博物院、龜山島等等"},{"start":566.747,"end":590.612,"text":"那鈔票改版圖案何不就沿用護照內頁的圖案主題來設計圖案爭議也比較低而且總裁你有什麼看法事實上那些是以前我們護照我也看過我覺得那時候設計得非常好那如果鈔卷鈔卷的話也可以來參考一下我是認為應該可以納進去考量是可以參考那個"},{"start":594.386,"end":614.741,"text":"總裁 是鈔票改版央行說將研究採用更環保的紙張或複合材料並強化這個印製流程中的這個潛能減碳那新鈔印製能兼顧環保當然是好事啊但本期提醒未來如果新鈔改版"},{"start":615.987,"end":630.892,"text":"必須要預先做好材料的測試鈔票的耐用度絕對不能比現在的鈔票來的差不然新鈔改版就是製造民眾使用的麻煩委員說的沒有錯那個央行那個總裁"},{"start":635.854,"end":662.753,"text":"會後也請總裁提供書面資料讓北京人了解紙鈔跟塑膠鈔的優缺點因為跟全世界各國使用的整個狀況好不好最後一點對於新鈔改版央行說改版主要是因應舊版台幣還尾已經過時需要更新讓科技日新月異尾鈔技術也以時俱進光靠鈔票改版"},{"start":664.433,"end":686.178,"text":"事不足以防範偽鈔流通那媒體報導偽鈔的這些教護啊只要他們入監以後服刑過後他們一般都從超就業對此央行應該要審慎的考慮這些妨害國幣懲治條例的修法加重處罰這些印製偽鈔的人"},{"start":689.497,"end":707.37,"text":"好 那個委員的意見呢 我們都會納入參考好 我希望如此好 謝謝好 謝謝林委員請問各位委員對上次議事錄有意義沒有意義 議事錄確定現在請第二位諮詢 李彥秀委員諮詢"}]}},{"id":"167999","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167999","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d0265d86f2f18c670de75f9492dba7577f5bc5cff238b3be44e2a508d4369232db33f131730d363f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅美玲","委員發言時間":"09:22:15 - 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有請顧部長顧部長是 羅委員部長早 部長全國人民所關注的這個海馬式多款火箭系統的首期款的展演昨天終於是傳來的這個好消息那我想國防部應該是盡了很大的努力所以美方終於同意要來展演"},{"start":28.195,"end":51.748,"text":"那當然剛剛我有聽這個陳俊宇有提到其實除了海馬仕之外其實還有我們的M109A7自走炮啦還有標槍跟這個托士飛彈等等其實這些也是在這個月底呢其實都是要來支付這個首期款其實就是在明天了嘛就是在明天嘛發價入簽署之後那現在如果都以"},{"start":52.328,"end":77.873,"text":"引用這個緊急條款的話那現在如果能夠展延到跟美國跟廠商一約之後我們就還有一個時間對 目前我們所知道就是只有海馬市就是剛剛部長你有提就是引用這個安全援助手冊的緊急生效然後可以延到這個五月下旬可是其他的到目前為止因為明天其實也要來做這個支付手續盤的"},{"start":78.473,"end":98.564,"text":"其他的部分我們也跟他一起商量有商量其實有通過嗎?他有答應嗎?後面這三項報告委員我們在協商這一次emergency case implementation的時候美方表示另外幾個必須要等到他們處理完之後才會跟我們做討論"},{"start":100.054,"end":126.212,"text":"所以您是意思說目前他只同意的是只有海馬市只有海馬市對 像其他的M109A7自走炮等等這些到目前為止都還沒有訊息嘛 是不是他還沒有說要在3月30日以前付款啦就這個部分的管項我們跟他簽署以後我們現在還在跟他商量所以看看是不是還在跟他商量 就這三項的話其實在月底還沒有說押在押在月底要付這樣"},{"start":126.832,"end":145.603,"text":"OK 那如果是說這個我們的國防特別條例沒過然後預算案沒過後續呢會影響到的這個軍購的這個進度到底會影響到還有哪些項目啊 請問除了我們現在所知道的目前這些之外還有沒有其他的項目會受到影響"},{"start":147.511,"end":155.56,"text":"您是說軍購的部分嗎?軍購的部分現在公布的我們拿到四項的發價數碼那現在還有一項是那個Artist的700"},{"start":159.707,"end":188.242,"text":"IM跟RTX6500的ISR那這個部分還沒有拿到發價數拿到發價數之後我們當然還是希望授權我們簽署授權我們簽署以後關於首期款的部分我們也是再跟他商量總共大概跟委員報告一下大概整個現在這個應該是四個案四個案加起來大概是需要七千"},{"start":190.708,"end":193.096,"text":"900萬,900多萬的美金大概是有幾款"},{"start":195.675,"end":219.323,"text":"這四個案要七千九百萬美金我們計算結果差不多是七千九百二十幾萬我在請教部長剛剛部長有提到說我們舉海馬仕好了目前的話大概會讓我們會延到這個五月底如果到那個時候條例沒過預算沒過美方還會再讓我們一再延嗎?有可能嗎?"},{"start":220.303,"end":236.99,"text":"如果沒有辦法延的話,到時候會有怎麼樣的後果?這個部分就要跟委員會比較困難他如果已經跟這個他的合約上預約了之後那這個基本上完成預約以後,因為為了要有相關的備料啦相關的這些初級準備"},{"start":239.031,"end":253.303,"text":"那這個部分可能展現的可能性就不高那所以我們大概預估他大概完成在五月下旬所以我剛剛有提到就是說如果能夠通過特別條例那我們送進預算之後雖然預算還沒有過"},{"start":254.471,"end":278.458,"text":"即使預算還沒有過我們倆是不是能夠授權我們先行支付這個部分的款項這樣可是這還是不確定性嘛對不對是我們希望希望能夠先行支付可是到時在審查的時候是不是又有一些意見那還有款源的部分就是說因為有七千九百多萬差不多和二十五億台幣的這個"},{"start":280.543,"end":306.844,"text":"款項 那這個款源要從哪裡來這可能我們也要思考一下是 所以這都是一個蠻複雜的工程我也希望說在野黨能夠了解國防部的這個難處就算說我們現在展延到五月底可是如果五月底以前我們國防特別條例沒有順利通過的話其實受的影響是非常大的因為美方不可能讓你再次的展延"},{"start":307.364,"end":311.287,"text":"好那在上個禮拜的時候呢我們花了三天的時間來審查國防特別條例其實那時候呢我有看到是在野黨的他刪除了很多的這個項目他說其實這些其實可以編列到這個公務預算裡面比如說我看到就是說我們的防空反彈道這些全部都沒有了然後還有這個AI跟這個C5"},{"start":330.802,"end":337.965,"text":"ISR系統也全部被刪掉了所以該部長其實在回答陳俊宇委員的時候其實說得很清楚我們的這個公務預算其實空間並不大那說實在我這邊有做了一個圖像這個國防部115年最初編列了5614億那5614億是分配到人員維持軍事投資跟作業維持"},{"start":356.992,"end":384.833,"text":"雖然人員維持的話我們比114年度那最初預算是增列了192億那其實包含了114年度核定的調整的各項軍職人員加急在原黨口口聲聲說要照顧這個軍職人員可是到目前為止已經214天了這個預算案到目前為止都還沒有審議所以這些都是被卡住的那再來還有作業維持我們編了100"},{"start":386.854,"end":390.995,"text":"1990億其實就是為了要因應這個敵情的威脅增列這個彈藥跟臨附近的這個籌補等等而且是比去年增加了514億那再來就是提到這個軍事投資的部長剛剛有說是我們編列了1616億其實黃文綺中將在上個禮拜一直在強調這個東西一直在強調這個東西"},{"start":412.481,"end":420.367,"text":"那我們除了配合軍購案付款期程我們建立了232億之內之外其中我們扣除優先支應已經簽約的持續案1532億之後其實我們真的只剩下84億那84億如何去承載我們這個國防特別條例裡面這些在野黨認為應該要編列到這個國防預算國防這個"},{"start":438.161,"end":456.398,"text":"一般的公務預算裡面真的是做不到你只是讓這個整個這個我們建軍準備的這個時程整個是延後了所以這個部分我剛剛也有聽部長再提為什麼沒有辦法列入這一般的公務"},{"start":457.139,"end":463.584,"text":"公務預算裡面那再來我們要提到的就是說好那在3月中的時候其實我們二讀通過了這個718億的這個總預算可是這718億的總預算裡面根本不含一毛錢是跟國防預算有關係的"},{"start":475.493,"end":494.178,"text":"所以等於就是說,國防特別條例卡住了,然後這個呢,總預算也卡住了,根本是沒有辦法動。習近平就說好,我們已經送到委員會來做審議,實際上我們很清楚,在野黨東挑西撿,說實在的。"},{"start":494.958,"end":519.062,"text":"整個國防的這個軍事投資目前是完全是看不到一毛錢這個部分的話我在想國防部應該也要很清楚的讓國人知道那甚至我們最近有接到一些支持者他們就說其實上個禮拜三天的這個國防特別條例的這個審議很多人都在看直播"},{"start":519.582,"end":538.739,"text":"很多人都看直播他說看了這個三天都很清楚都很清楚為什麼我們需要國防特別條例可是再也打好奇怪他們到現在還是認為說這個部分國防特別條例你這個部分可以挪到這個一般的公務預算連一般的民眾幾乎都"},{"start":539.78,"end":559.42,"text":"經過三天都很清楚到底怎麼一回事可是我們就覺得很奇怪在野黨一直都不是很清楚到底怎麼回事為什麼我們要國防特別預算我們為什麼沒有辦法編到這個一般的公務預算清清楚楚已經講了三天了那我今天呢我也把它把這個稍微做了一個整理這次的跟"},{"start":560.461,"end":575.107,"text":"在野黨的委員這邊再拜託因為時間真的非常的緊迫國家是我們自己的我們投資國防其實就是投資和平這是一個大家都都有的這個"},{"start":576.648,"end":587.136,"text":"觀念全世界都在增加這個國防預算唯有我國的在野黨用盡所有的力氣來東挑西撿故意拖延造成這個整個的這個建軍整備的這個過程其實是整個是延宕的其實全民都在看啊"},{"start":599.606,"end":623.404,"text":"國防部真的是非常地辛苦 三個禮拜用盡了講到已經 我看黃文綺中將講到整個很沮喪都沒有辦法讓在野黨了解的這個狀況 說實在的全民都在看大家都覺得說真的不需要這樣子 台灣只有一個好 以上謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168009","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168009","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d0265d86f2f18c67eace25ec66fc2cba117671a01da40a1397994c33887c7127c358bed1a557d1e65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林倩綺","委員發言時間":"09:50:19 - 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資訊失控的時候呢那第一線的反應竟然是報警處理我想大家從這整個畫面或者是看到的資訊都還蠻難以想像的那我想社會大眾對於這個警政的這個概念或者是對於警察的想法或者是所謂的法警"},{"start":75.255,"end":99.955,"text":"我想在這個過程當中大家都蠻難理解的所以這樣講起來就是對司法的這個威信本身是一種傷害那今天呢其實剛才有幾位委員也有提出一些建議也就是說那這整個我們對於地檢署內部維護秩序跟安全的基本上就是法警人員但是關鍵時刻沒有辦法來發揮效用那很重要的核心就是法警職權的這個問題"},{"start":102.077,"end":115.59,"text":"那剛才也有警衛委員談到法警的這個法制的一個依據那麼警察人員在執行這個執法的時候有警察職權行使法與警察勤務條例來作為依據"},{"start":117.552,"end":144.926,"text":"那涉及人民自由與權利的措施都有明文的一個規定還有法律的一個程序的保障但是法警它基本上在執行拘提、解送那麼甚至限制人身自由等高度介入基本權利的行為的時候呢主要的依據竟然是法警執行職務、陰刑注意事項等行政規則那其實有像剛才這個秘書長您這邊所講的"},{"start":146.653,"end":174.543,"text":"我們從這件事情看到的真的是規定沒有用規定多如牛毛可是真的要用的時候卻使不上力所以呢如果法院地檢署的秩序需要積極來介入那法警會面臨可能會面臨被質疑或者是逮捕不合法甚至會遭到民事的一個責任的追究那這樣法源不明也不敢執行那麼法院地檢署的功能是不是有一點虛設"},{"start":176.532,"end":192.179,"text":"這樣的制度沒有辦法保障法警的情務安全然後也讓法官跟檢察官跟到場的民眾其實有在一個潛在風險當中本席也注意到法警的穿著跟警察的穿著還蠻高度一致的"},{"start":192.679,"end":210.392,"text":"但是職權跟法源卻完全不同我想這樣子的一個外觀跟實際的落差會造成社會上的一個誤解那對於整個執法體系的執行也沒有很實質的一個幫助所以接下來我想要請這個司法院法務部來做一個說明"},{"start":211.733,"end":236.973,"text":"那對於制定法警職權行使法來明確規範法警的職權範圍程序要件跟救濟的一個機制那麼司法院跟法務部的立場是如何那本席也有注意到在2017年其實這樣一個議題有被提出來過那本黨有一些委員其實有提到有關於法警職權行使法的相關法案但是當時"},{"start":239.295,"end":263.906,"text":"司法院跟法務部可能就覺得應該在法院組織法裡面去做處理就好了但是幾年過去了我們從這個事件看到當時你們的見解似乎在實務上是有一些落差的所以本席再次提出來這樣一個法制的訂定法源的一個比較強力性所以在相關立法"},{"start":265.086,"end":292.658,"text":"在可能完成之前那麼司法院跟地檢署有沒有短期的精進措施來強化法警來執行的法律保障跟現場的應變能力應變能力我相信你們應該會從這次的這個個案來做一些檢討但是我想幾年來還會發生這樣一個狀況可能我們真的要就這個法源跟法治層面去做一個制度性的處理那不曉得您對這個部分各位對這個部分的一個看法"},{"start":293.338,"end":320.916,"text":"跟委員報告我們那個法組法其實司法院是認為關於法警的行使職權就是說對強制力有這個妨礙到民眾人身的部分人身自由的這個我們認為是規定在法組法因為我們法組法裡面已經有規定關於法警職務其實現在只要"},{"start":321.536,"end":325.732,"text":"把這個法警的職務罵入關於這個沒有另外一個"},{"start":327.245,"end":353.435,"text":"不是基本上這還是一個行政規則就是一個規定嘛這樣法院組織法是法律我們就是要增加它的法源就規定在地方法院我們可以規定法警為了維護這個可以行使各種比如說可是你這樣定定的可是這一次是不是後來你們還要叫外面的警察來協助"},{"start":354.435,"end":382.793,"text":"因為最重要是就是說我們先講罰處罰部分罰處罰部分因為沒有訂定所以這個法警對於實施強制禁止可是我必須說其實對於現行犯的逮捕是不需要罰處罰的如果在法庭法院內部剛剛委員提到的這種暴力行為的發生根本不要用罰處罰就有了解這次發生這樣子的個案的原因是什麼嗎"},{"start":384.97,"end":398.355,"text":"當然有了解啊他就是這個整個案情我們都非常清楚真的必須說我們這個法警太客氣了其實並不是所有法警都要這個樣子啦其實很多法警"},{"start":399.015,"end":418.49,"text":"絕對會幫他或許他可能知道的也很多然後考量的也很多就如同剛才我們所講的這個部分那這一些或許是他知道這一些規定跟實務上的落差那不能說量多的就一定是對量少的就可能有問題不能說這樣子所以這個個案不會讓我們看到整體性的一個制度是有問題嗎"},{"start":419.23,"end":441.206,"text":"也就是這個依據是不是不夠強讓大家能夠直接這樣去執行他被賦予的權利或許在執行權利之後可能還有某一些空間會讓他陷入麻煩那搞不好這個法警可能有他各方面都了解了一些認知也說不定跟委員報告其實這一件真的是現行法不用法組法也可以做其實法警最難操作的是"},{"start":441.886,"end":458.695,"text":"我要檢查 我要禁止 這個是沒有法律規定譬如說 進法院的檢查 我強制檢查 強制收身那種防範危險發生的 這個是法警最難做的其實剛剛講的陷阱算是絕對沒問題的"},{"start":463.658,"end":484.188,"text":"具有權力的人很多時候我們可以這樣講但是權力可能有落差的人他在執行上可能會有很多的考量我覺得這個部分是不是我們可以在這個制度缺口是不是不要再透過這樣一個行政規則來做點綴那如果回到法律未接是不是可以某種程度的來"},{"start":485.568,"end":501.625,"text":"因應這樣子的一個問題我想今天很多人也指出來就是說一個法律未接的這樣一個法是不是應該在這次事件裡面可以被考量跟討論對 沒有錯所以說我們才會說在因為法院組織法它是一個法律"},{"start":502.666,"end":529.945,"text":"那法院組織法也有法警我們要把法警的職權行使利益賦予法警一個很明確的這個法賦予法警一個很明確的法法警職權行使法這個我們待會去考慮我們會斟酌看到底法警是因為畢竟它在法組法裡面這一次所產生的狀況是如此那所以是不是可以再考量法警職權行使法在實際執行上的一個可能性"},{"start":530.325,"end":548.524,"text":"可以 我們可以考量 謝謝接下來本席要請教的其實還是對司法信賴度的一個問題也就是說這次這個懲戒法庭的這個院長的這個案件李院長這個案件已經有判決了"},{"start":549.585,"end":565.764,"text":"那這個判決其實也引發社會的高度關注啦因為最重要的不是只有行為本身的惡劣那最重要的是行為人也身居高位但是呢卻成為違法失德的一個主體我想很多人都沒有辦法接受"},{"start":566.445,"end":579.873,"text":"那這樣從監察院的調查看來那相關的這個霸凌的行為長期是存在的但是內部機制也沒有辦法及早發現跟介入甚至可能在有介入的一個情況下其實還是有一些權宜的"},{"start":582.895,"end":598.846,"text":"這個做法也就是說也等到這個院長這邊退休了之後那整件事情才做了一個處理所以這個案子所暴露的制度缺口司法院是不是有啟動一個全面的檢討那目前在性騷跟霸凌的一個防治上"},{"start":599.386,"end":619.911,"text":"你們有沒有什麼具體的精進措施那第二個部分是那針對高階官員的一個行為監督有沒有一個獨立或有效的申訴跟調查的機制那我們怎麼樣來避免權力的不對等那導致被害人投訴無門或者是投訴的時候可能沒有辦法及時有一些回應"},{"start":620.931,"end":636.85,"text":"那這個案子不僅是個案的一個處理啦我覺得借這個機會也可以做一個強化內部的治理跟人權保障機制的一個檢討讓司法的體系也能夠讓大家多一點信任那您的看法是如何"},{"start":638.271,"end":652.638,"text":"對於發生這種事情真的是對社會大眾我們也很抱歉可是關於霸凌的處理其實是完全尤其是現在因為公務人員職場安全及衛生防護法他這一次再修正"},{"start":653.579,"end":668.033,"text":"他已經有外部委員的參與那其實內部程序也是更積極了就是因為這次修正以後所以各個我們各法院都有相關的調查處理辦法我們第一個一定要讓同仁"},{"start":669.15,"end":691.562,"text":"勇於提出這個霸凌申訴那我們當然希望不要發生可是發生的話另外我們也要求各科室主管是要主動觀察當然主動觀察這個東西就大家去衡量那對於霸凌事件的發生我們整個除了通報以外後續的處理是完全依照程序來的"},{"start":692.662,"end":720.384,"text":"那當然這個事件的發生可能前面遭到各界質疑我們是處理的太慢其實在這個事件以後我們是強力規定整個程序是一步緊接著一步一定要不管這個霸凌有沒有成立一定要讓我們申訴的人他知道說我們這件事情怎麼處理另外霸凌一旦提出在有沒有成立之前我們也會做一個"},{"start":721.445,"end":745.572,"text":"隔開或者是職位的移動最少要讓霸凌人他心情是平靜的好的 那咪師傅如果您覺得這個部分在規定上或SOP上面你們已經有做一些處理那我同樣的一個建議也就是像您剛才講的罰警那是不是在SOP的一個訓練上我想也是應該平常就要做一個訓練跟處理的"},{"start":747.212,"end":767.924,"text":"最後本席這邊要請教警政署關於警計的一個問題目前我們知道有爆發新聞裡面爆發出遠景勾結詐騙集團利用公務系統來查詢車手的通緝資料甚至到洩密跟偽造文書雖然已經深壓獲准"},{"start":771.386,"end":793.509,"text":"這也看到我們警政系統被濫用那甚至呢現在大家知道的詐騙猖獗結果我們竟然還成為一個助力所以雖然你們在警政系統這邊已經做了一些警示的機制但本席認為單純的一個查詢警示其實還是有某種程度的被動所以要請教你們"},{"start":794.13,"end":818.425,"text":"那針對這個個案警政署現在有沒有全面來檢視歷史的調閱記錄有沒有其他的異常行為那第二部分是那同步是不是有同步追查其他員警涉入的一個可能性那目前對員警查詢資料的監督機制有沒有建立一個定期回溯集合或是異常行為的一個分析還是大部分都是事後發現那"},{"start":820.126,"end":843.009,"text":"接下來是在查詢警示之外呢那警政署會不會更積極主導這個監督的一個措施那除了針對高風險的一個查詢的立即的預警那跨單位的比對不知道你們有沒有做比如說督察單位的主動抽查像這樣子的情形是不是可以請你這邊簡單做一個回應"},{"start":846.212,"end":859.98,"text":"我想警政署對於這些違法犯規的同仁我非常痛心所以好幾次的經驗以後我們警政署由督察室主導的我們大概會把所有"},{"start":860.8,"end":878.346,"text":"查詢的異常流量的同仁都把它列印出來讓主管去主動集合這是主動式的而不是被動的那被動式的很多被動式的當然就是很多都已經發現這些異常了違法亂紀了那所以你們有沒有做一些跨單位的這個比較分析呢"},{"start":880.187,"end":905.969,"text":"有有有 異常的部分我們都控管甚至我們有些單位會自己研發一些電腦把一些參數設定出來出來以後 跑出來以後交給主管可是我們因為有7萬人那怪異肉案所以很多時候事實上這也是我們目前在整個風紀的部分查緝的一個重點那不管是我們每一週還有晚報等等這些都一再的去宣導"},{"start":906.77,"end":928.343,"text":"那這個部分當然是我們的大忌我們現在打詐是我們的重點工作那發生一樣一個案件跟詐欺集團勾結事實上我們就自己覺得臉上很慌那個影響就很大 是是是所以我們會深切檢討這部分那我們會積極來查緝好 最重要就是我們應該主動讓民眾安心是 是 有這部分我們在做OK 好 謝謝那這也提出了這個國家資訊權利被濫用的一個問題"},{"start":931.405,"end":944.28,"text":"那很重要一點就是說我們掌握越多的權力我們有越多的責任那這個責任就是如何讓權力相對不對等的民眾感到安全我想這也是很重要的好 謝謝好 謝謝喔這邊的話你可能要提醒剛剛秘書長這裡"}]}},{"id":"168005","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168005","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d0265d86f2f18c67532c5951d105e0347f5bc5cff238b3be44e2a508d43692327b10ae65e3cca9285ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王安祥","委員發言時間":"09:42:00 - 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有請顧部長請顧部長也請詹貴司司長 侯司長請詹貴司 黃司長"},{"start":11.124,"end":40.384,"text":"部長好 市長早上禮拜我們連續三天在討論這個預算不是預算 是我們這個條例的部分因為我剛好坐在市長對面我也在觀察市長的狀況前幾天媒體大幅報導市長表情的狀況還好啦 昨天晚上看起來是好消息我想我們也透過很多方法跟美方大家透過一些民間的方法告訴他們說我們其實"},{"start":41.184,"end":68.337,"text":"不是 再來一檔其實基本上也是贊成軍購的部分我們也事先授權給國防部先去預約基本上我想這個是好消息市長應該是吧 有暫時心情稍微舒緩了一點幫我們全力以赴好 他跟我說他下次在立法院的時候他的姿態管理要關掉"},{"start":70.268,"end":75.536,"text":"不過我想大家都一樣都是非常努力的在促成這件事情"},{"start":76.434,"end":104.231,"text":"那我想我今天主要基本上因為那天應該是禮拜三的時候我有提到一些我們在做討論那個不管是名稱啦或是裡面具體的內容的部分其實有講到這個飛鴻的部分啦當然有些人是說這個什麼供應鏈啦更進一步不過基本上那天有特別提到大家比較肯設的就是無人機的部分啦那看起來好像我們過去已經買了這個大概市面都要大概八家嘛不曉得市長這個數字是不是正確大概現在的狀況"},{"start":107.055,"end":123.106,"text":"這軍用的啦現在講的是無人機您是講前面的4000多架對對對 之前的啦 之前的是那我們也很關心現在那個飛紅的狀況所以部長或市長可以告訴我們一下有關於過去這個無人機的採購我們現在飛紅的程度大概是怎麼樣"},{"start":125.997,"end":140.552,"text":"我們飛鴻的原則是一貫的那前面的4700多架從微型一直到幕後型無人機的這個部分那也是要求國內廠商必須以國內自己的技術或是國外可以取得的飛鴻技術來產製這些無人機"},{"start":143.419,"end":171.83,"text":"是 因為我們過去都在機關裡面我們過去國安法跟國防長的條例還有我們最近有一個新的自動安全審查辦法去年12月基本上要求都會越來越嚴格我們也受到很多的管制我們接下來可能還會有一些所謂的商購的部分不曉得無人街這個部分我們要怎麼確保這個非紅的狀況尤其大家很多聽過什麼洗產地或者一些基本上的零件的部分是不是可以再跟大家說明一下"},{"start":178.542,"end":178.785,"text":"對 加速了"},{"start":180.865,"end":208.107,"text":"跟委員說明第一個我們原本是特別預算通過我們要公告的我們就設定了我們的20萬家然後分成疊代的問題我們就分成兩個年度大概115跟116大概要買了四萬八千多家我們已經召開了兩次的說明會尤其在去年11月國內兩三百家都來我們也跟他們說明了我們這個四萬八千多家一定要在台生產在台組裝"},{"start":209.068,"end":235.32,"text":"杜絕紅色供應鏈而且我們的無人機是要整機拆驗並且要經過資測會相關的資通的檢驗我們要杜絕這個紅色供應鏈那這個部分我們一定會落實在地化的生產你這樣說明是不是可以提供我更多一些資料就你們現在預備要我們可以把一些說明會的資料提供給委員辦公室我想大家都非常關心因為那天在講名稱的時候或一些說明的時候我想在座大家都非常非常關心這個問題"},{"start":237.062,"end":262.639,"text":"那另外就是我上次其實有特別提到這件事情就是在那個特別預算裡面有提到一些作為費的部分作為費的部分那我們也這個光輝也來跟我做一些說明不過我想這次我們又增購了一些武器我想這個作為費的部分一定會慢慢就會一直來增加那尤其是現在這次我們新買的一些武器包含這個是I3海馬4"},{"start":263.88,"end":283.645,"text":"那我們當然知道這個有新的武器基本上它的一些cost model可能都會有一些不一樣的狀況不曉得國安部對這個部分尤其新式採購跟舊的部分有沒有做過這樣的評估啊那我們那個作為飛行會不會在哪一個年度會達到高峰那會影響到我們的一些我們今天主要的議題就是有關於我們的預算的部分財政的部分"},{"start":284.91,"end":302.625,"text":"發委員,作為費是沒有高峰的這個問題,作為費只有依照需求我們去籌編,那當然像過去這幾年來,敵情威脅陡峰的狀況導致我們的油料零件等大幅增加之後,我們會適度的去調整我們作為費的預判額度"},{"start":304.446,"end":329.451,"text":"那我們在這次特別預算裡面,您剛剛問到會不會成為常態,基本上我們不希望它成為常態。目前我們在這次特別預算裡面,編列的兩大重點是我們要快速的提高我們的基本的戰備量,尤其是關鍵彈藥的那個部分,以及各式系統有必要的部分,我們才會在這個地方放進來。"},{"start":330.911,"end":350.538,"text":"我有看到那個115年的預算裡面這個後勤通知系統大概就編了1500多億嘛580幾億我的意思說未來我們general budget裡面這些部分會不會可能因為我們有新式的這些武器進來會影響到可能會變成會變得更高或是跟過去會有很明顯的一個差異報告員這個要看他的武器裝備的性質我們"},{"start":352.199,"end":379.093,"text":"目前所有的武器裝備裡面作為耗費最高的是航才就是各式飛機包含直升機之內它佔的比例是最高的那您可以看得到在這一次我們特別預算裡面編列的項目絕大部分是屬於彈藥類或是屬於地面的武器系統的這個部分它的那個佔比以及它的消耗額度就相對的會低很多尤其是彈藥類的部分"},{"start":381.328,"end":405.61,"text":"那我上次的質詢裡面其實有提到了大概一個概念就是我們發現很多的這個文號的字號其實它那個年跟月其實好像有點順序不是非常一致的狀況那很感謝國安部也跟我們做了一些說明不過我對於這個大家看到這個投影片上面就有關於這個像是擴增這個產線的部分這個好像做了一些調整國安部的意思也說好像做了那個產線的一些調整"},{"start":406.491,"end":423.938,"text":"那不過大家可以看到這個的年份他的月份是在114年12月跟115年的1月大家都知道特別預算送進來的時間是114年11月送進來的那我不知道這個狀況到底是怎麼樣是因為有做一些調整其實budget應該會改變吧"},{"start":427.411,"end":447.026,"text":"對,包委員我們這個部分在確定這個上限額度之前我們就依照2500億的這個部分數量的部分在平行的部分我們是有做了一些修調所以我們是控管在它的這個範圍之內是在預算內做了一些調整對"},{"start":448.226,"end":465.145,"text":"所以結論就是說他的數量或者他的金額可能都不會受到影響就後面調整我們現在已經框了1.25兆了嘛對不對那可是後端這個部分有一些調整可是不會影響到1.25兆的總預算不會所以增加也不會增加或減少都不會影響"},{"start":466.892,"end":482.525,"text":"包委員這個不是增加或減少不會有影響我剛剛已經講了這是我們在確保財政紀律法的前提之下不讓我們的這整個軍購案造成國家財力太大的負擔所以"},{"start":483.386,"end":502.107,"text":"針對那個個案裡面它的數量如果說我們要維持在一定的預算額度的部分我們就會做一個平行的調整比如說A案它目前的迫切性沒有那麼高我們會稍微降低一下它的數量B案如果目前我們認為它可以獲得而且迫切性比較高所以您的調整的是在這一項裡面"},{"start":503.268,"end":529.025,"text":"像室內做調整所以包委您看到那個文號必須要看到整個序列因為我們整歸書的部分做任何一點維修條包括裡面的標題甚至某一些文字的修訂我們就會賦予他一個新的文號所以事實上我的意思是說我已經接納你們上次跟我說的一些解釋啦我只是說最後這個部分我還是不是非常了解因為最後作為調整我們如果是1.25兆的總"},{"start":530.726,"end":551.287,"text":"框了這麼大一塊嘛有些調整我覺得應該會有一些調整沒關係我們再來再來做一些溝通啦那另外就是我們其實還是比較擔心這個所謂軍用衛星啦我們整個通訊的部分啦我不知道因為那天有特別提到這個Link16的部分啦就是有一些戰艦的部分不曉得現在是不是所有我們的戰艦上那個Link16都是OK的"},{"start":554.81,"end":581.545,"text":"包委員另一個16是美製系統對所以只適用於美製的裝備是那所以我們這次看到那個伊朗的部分其實他這個通訊的部分有受到一些這個軟性的攻擊不曉得我們現在整個對通訊系統的部分我們這個整個這個韌性的部分是怎麼樣做調整包委員這個部分可能屬於高度敏感疾病是是是不方便在這邊說好沒關係我們私下在"},{"start":582.832,"end":599.823,"text":"對 LINK-16相關這個部門應該是屬於機密案件我們私下再跟委員做說明好 沒有問題那天有特別提到這個 LINK-22有特別提到這個事情因為美方應該也有做一些Promise"},{"start":601.485,"end":618.156,"text":"這個部分我想也私下再跟委員長說那這一次我其實這一次有特別提到上次有一些主責廠商的部分這一次的那個公告好像沒有特別看到那這部分再請跟國防部做一些溝通那感謝好 謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"168004","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168004","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d0265d86f2f18c67fda60c9f08966fab117671a01da40a1344e2a508d436923294175fee1b8a1d2e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林沛祥","委員發言時間":"09:38:01 - 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我們接下來請林沛翔委員好 主席 有請高秘書長 你慢慢來好 請高秘書長"},{"start":22.992,"end":49.63,"text":"好 高明署長我今天主要談兩個議題一個發生在法院裡面一個發生在社會上面其實都同時都指向同一個問題我們的司法制度到底有沒有跟上現實呢先講我們今天最主要的主題就是有關法警的事情那台中地方法院一位當事人當場甩了律師公會理事長一巴掌重點不是在巴掌本身而是旁邊有法警啊"},{"start":50.33,"end":55.394,"text":"那罰警的反應不是制止而是也不是壓制而是安撫"},{"start":57.306,"end":80.912,"text":"這畫面有點讓人錯亂我必須這樣說法院裡面發生暴力行為最冷靜的不是制度是打人的人最溫柔的反而是法警那我就想請教司法院現在法警的SOP是什麼是先勸再說還是先安撫再評估還是要看對方情緒穩不穩定決定要不要執法甚至一個比較現實的問題如果今天被打的不是律師"},{"start":81.952,"end":104.412,"text":"是法官是檢察官那縣長的處置會不會還是如此的溫馨呢還是說司法體系裡面有所謂的身份的排序這問題不回答清楚外界很難不懷疑我們的執法標準是一致的還是有彈性的講得更直接一點現在法警的問題是不能處理還是不敢處理"},{"start":105.788,"end":122.622,"text":"如果是不能就表示制度設計是有問題如果是不敢就是訓練跟授權出了問題那兩者都非常嚴重法院是最後一道防線如果連法院裡的基本秩序都守不住那人民走進來是尋求正義還是參加風險體驗勒"},{"start":126.465,"end":144.789,"text":"所以我這邊具體請教三點第一是否該全面檢討法院的維安機制第二是否強化法警現場的應變跟執法訓練第三是否建立可以明確執行的現場處理標準而不是靠臨場感覺請秘書長回答"},{"start":149.989,"end":167.968,"text":"其實跟委員報告其實所有標準都已經訂立我剛剛就講了第一個我們一定要預防危險發生第二個在現場的時候法警應該第一個維持秩序的時候當有這種暴力發生的時候"},{"start":169.87,"end":188.529,"text":"應該我們撇開法組法的法源依據就我們內部的規定法警是可以制止的我們內部規定法警是可以制止的那這一件發生我們真的就是司法院還有這個各法院都是深深的在必須檢討"},{"start":189.75,"end":208.36,"text":"最重要的檢討就是一定要落實執行其實法警我們給他教育訓練很多了可是為什麼他不能把它當成他的DNA來當場反映出來為什麼會有這種遲疑是我們現在請各院務必要"},{"start":210.508,"end":238.046,"text":"讓法警要有這種本能的反應當然要依照比例原則所以跟委員報告那當然我們現在最重要的強化就是一定要落實再多的規定都沒有用其實我們真的規定多如流毛可是很可惜在這個事件裡面竟然沒有把規定落實出來這是我們最要檢討的地方所以因為規定多如流毛所以第一線的人員有點是用猜的在執法"},{"start":238.186,"end":265.499,"text":"不是不是不是 是這個意思嗎不是不是 他們也知道那老實講一巴掌直接轟過去了然後法警說不要這樣好不好這個你覺得如果是在我們的法我記得我們的法律體系好像常常採用在美國那美國的法律體系如果這個嫌犯還是當事人直接給律師一巴掌那法警會坐在那邊完全說你不要這樣嗎我想不太會吧"},{"start":265.959,"end":285.182,"text":"不是真的 這個有點全國民眾都在看 這個聽到感覺哪裡怪怪的不是嗎我就說真的沒有讓法警我不知道這位是不是剛剛進來法警不管是你剛進來或老法警都要知道"},{"start":285.783,"end":303.26,"text":"一定要維護所有走進法院裡面甚至在這個我們院語內的秩序的安全跟人身的安全其實這個是我們一直規定一直講一直講一直講可是在這個世界我們就看到確實沒有落實"},{"start":305.999,"end":333.914,"text":"我會認為秘書長我還是還是剛那句話不要讓第一線人員用猜的在指法明確可執行的現場處置標準這一次案子是個很明顯的一個案子剛剛不只松小林委員剛剛陳昭芝委員也都質詢過了今天是遇到一個女性的女性的當事人有過激的反應如果明天遇到的是一個雄壯威武比較而且比較有攻擊性的人那罰警是否"},{"start":334.81,"end":356.453,"text":"能夠保護到您剛剛講的目的保護到所有人呢這個明確而且可執行的現場處理標準這個最簡單的SOP我期待說我們司法院能夠盡快來去促成這件事情因為這是司法院的責任第二個案子我想要談就是社會上關注度非常高的新北哥口案"},{"start":357.691,"end":379.946,"text":"案子已經定驗了但是社會的不滿並沒有定驗這件事讓人不安的不是判決結果而是人民開始懷疑這套制度到底接不住風險我想這個案子全國都很注重被害人家屬講了一句很重的話司法接不住孩子要被害人來接"},{"start":381.107,"end":408.096,"text":"那這句話其實要問一件事我們的制度到底是在保護人還是賭運氣呢我要請教司法院面對這麼重大的案件你認為現行制度特別是這個邵氏法還符合現實嗎其實大家心裡都知道制度還停在30年前但是犯罪形態已經是2026的版本已經跟1996年1986年不一樣了現在的問題不是現在的問題不是沒有方向而是沒有速度"},{"start":409.176,"end":429.266,"text":"社會再問修法什麼時候來怎麼改誰負責讓我這邊提出三個方向也請司法院正面回應立場第一個重大暴力犯罪是否限制假釋對於故意殺人重傷致死這種案件是如果判刑十年以上是否明定不得假釋"},{"start":430.707,"end":450.721,"text":"現在的制度是時間到了就可以申請但是我的感受是傷害還沒結束人權可能就先出來了這個落差要怎麼解釋呢好 跟委員報告委員講一句話講得我個人也非常贊成就是說我們受試法是不是可以因應現代的"},{"start":452.463,"end":464.352,"text":"其實對於這一件新北戈口案因為他是當就是因為少子法的關係而造成很多中間的缺陷的出現其實我們對於假釋已經"},{"start":465.612,"end":481.059,"text":"左手嚴厲,應該草案已經出來了,應該要分階層還有相關的少年問題,還有被害人的參與,我們都已經嚴厲草案出來我們會在最快最快的本會期送出來"},{"start":481.57,"end":503.386,"text":"既然司法院已經正面回應這件事情那本席也就特地提我第二個主張直接提高假釋的門檻啦對於這種重傷事實這種重大這種故意殺人這種案件目前是服刑三分之一就可以申請假釋那是不是可以直接提高到二分之一那不要讓刑期看起來很重但是執行的時候卻被直接打折啊"},{"start":504.126,"end":526.232,"text":"我們有提供三分之一、二分之一、三分之二都有就依照他再次犯罪的罪職來做不同的處置第三點我希望我的意見司法院能夠真正能夠納入因為很多現在民眾對於法律對於司法是有極度的不信任因為有太多太多原因不管是我們看到的其他案件還是目前這一個案子"},{"start":526.972,"end":541.986,"text":"其實被害人的意見納入審查在於殺人跟重傷致死的時候被害人的意見納入審查現在很多家屬的感受是什麼判決已經很難接受後面假釋的過程那個聲音都沒有"},{"start":544.674,"end":561.014,"text":"蘇長你想想看如果說您當然是以一個專業公務員專業體制內的人去講一句話可是如果一般家屬苦民所苦一般家屬我自己有兩個小朋友那如果我的小朋友出事我一定"},{"start":562.659,"end":585.898,"text":"那個怒氣跟悲傷我是不知道怎麼去發洩的但是如果說這個人出來假釋過程之內我連個聲音都沒有那我想請問我們現在先談法我們不談雖然這是個案但是我們直接從制度希望能夠把個案來去做一定程度的改善我們那個假釋是不是可以假釋是要納入被害人的陳述我們的草案裡面也規定了禁打"},{"start":586.118,"end":594.54,"text":"還有另外一個 審查結果必須說出具體的理由你不能說審查結果它可以了就這樣拼拼拼拼拼拼拼拼拼拼拼拼拼拼拼拼拼拼拼拼拼拼拼拼拼"},{"start":612.004,"end":627.407,"text":"對 沒錯 我想任何理由都是要具體的我想這個是我們草案裡面一定是努力的方法我們很擔心的一句話叫做黑箱讓程序透明 不要讓民眾直接認為司法就是在黑箱這點我覺得司法院必須要再做到"},{"start":628.615,"end":647.677,"text":"最後面我在幫民間團體這個還想陪你長大聯盟講一句話他們提的不是情緒是很務實的問題高風險家庭是誰在接社工跟保護官人力夠不夠心理輔導矯正體系有沒有接軌校園安全是誰在負責"},{"start":649.339,"end":666.301,"text":"這些問題的共通點只有一個不是單一機關而是要跨部會來解決所以我想請教司法院現在是否有這跨部會的整合機制還是各做各最後責任也是各自切割沒有 跟委員報告就是在家事部分我們講保護令各方面"},{"start":667.301,"end":689.431,"text":"或者是在少年部分其實跟什麼衛福部啦還有教育部啊我們是各機關一定要跨部會的因為這個少年的有教育的部分有醫療的部分甚至就是我們司法部分我們全力的是所有一定是跨機關的結合那我也跟可以跟委員報告其實其他機關"},{"start":691.574,"end":701.333,"text":"警政署他們也是全力因為這件事件啟發我們很多的必須要進步的地方現在是全力跨部會"},{"start":702.932,"end":728.692,"text":"本席至少對於秘書長今天講說這個會期會提出版本這件事情本席給予肯定但是我期待的是說版本出來之後我們能夠好好開始討論不要讓這件事情已經發生的事情變成這個案變成未來的通案制度有錯就要改有不好的地方就要改要與時俱進這是我希望司法院能夠在這個案子上繼續做到的地方以上好 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的社攤事件另外一個就是民眾黨的徐春英他涉嫌這個共諜案的部分"},{"start":39.346,"end":59.059,"text":"那麼其實根據這個案子我想這個柯文哲他的這個有關於是不是社攤這個他個人誠信跟這個司法的部分但是有關於徐春英這個共諜案我想其實讓國人最感到恐怖的是過去我們都說這個匪諜就在你身邊但是呢好像"},{"start":59.719,"end":64.443,"text":"感覺不出來在哪裡現在這樣的共諜的滲透根據起訴書的話徐春英跟這個集資公司的負責人透過我們現在正常的所謂貌似正常的這個商業往來跟交流然後讓一個叫孫憲他本人是這個所謂上海的市委的所謂祖國統一會的副主委也就是說負責統戰"},{"start":86.801,"end":114.86,"text":"那麼結論就是徐車英跟這個羅穎集資公司的名義把中國統戰的幹部帶到了台灣來那麼為什麼我會提到這一個是因為呢我上網去查了這個集資公司大家都會認為說他應該只是一個正常交流的公司沒想到他還真的這個資金破風而且接了很多政府的標案而這個標案當中也包含了國防部跟國防大學的兩個標案"},{"start":116.261,"end":141.154,"text":"那分別是在2019跟2021年金額不高但是我們看到的是他第一個是國防大學的除聯管理學術研究系統另外一個是國防部的資訊安全防護教育訓練其實當然這兩個案子我看大概都已經執行完畢了但重點就來了在這樣的過程當中這個把"},{"start":142.615,"end":169.814,"text":"中共的統戰官員以假商務真滲透的方式帶進來台灣的同時他也標了我們國防部跟國防大學相關的尤其是資安資訊安全非常重要的這樣的一個標案那麼我想請問3月23號宣判到今天剛好一個禮拜這一個禮拜的過程中國防部有沒有"},{"start":170.675,"end":186.732,"text":"去了解到這個所謂起訴書上面特別標示的國防部的資安的標案是韋游這一間極致公司那麼有沒有做一個回溯因為我們知道的是像這樣的資安通常它有系統的問題有帳號安全密碼的問題還有就是人員接觸的問題"},{"start":193.078,"end":218.457,"text":"既然這間公司都可以用商務的名義讓他以商務交流的名義讓這個叫孫縣的進來之後那麼有沒有啟動清查去回溯這個標案做完了可是過程當中到底這間公司接觸了什麼部長跟委員報告有請這個廣東大學了解那現在主要"},{"start":219.917,"end":235.592,"text":"我了解的事項先跟委員做報告,如果有補充再請他們,主要這是一百零八年的一個九十七萬五千元的一個案子那他這個是在做那個有關庫主管理,主要是對那個教職員的服裝教職員的服裝的供補,所以他是在由這個應該是總務處"},{"start":243.089,"end":267.403,"text":"在總務處裡面來做,那所以他是在民網的執行系統來做一些開發那沒有跟我們的軍防系統有做連結,那另外就是說他這個案子在因為110年的時候陸海空軍的服裝站成立之後這個國防大學所有的人都是依照他的"},{"start":268.305,"end":277.618,"text":"他的軍種就回到各軍種去做那個供補所以他這個有關服裝的這個補給回歸到各軍的服務站去做供應以後這一個這一個軟體本來要掌握這個補給狀況的這個"},{"start":284.079,"end":299.676,"text":"部分就停用了就沒有再用所以目前這個系統是停用的狀態是好我要提醒的就是就像部長您所說的他掌握的是一個補給系統我們知道不論是暫時或平時補給系統非常的重要而另外國防部的這個資訊安全防護教育訓練裡頭那麼"},{"start":305.221,"end":331.216,"text":"這一個公司他又負責了哪一個部分因為我要提醒的是必須要啟動回溯系統因為包括他碰到哪些系統哪些資料哪些流程有沒有接觸帳號的權限然後教材內容又是什麼系統的後台還有哪些資料其實他們都可能遇到哪些的介面這個部分有關於國防部這個案子目前有回去回溯嗎知通電軍的這塊是"},{"start":334.238,"end":351.975,"text":"早上是110年的一個資訊安全防護教育訓練那他主要是針對網路安全的管理有一個基礎的訓練那老師大部分都是那個微軟公司派遣的一個老師所以他是屬於一種我們對於"},{"start":353.12,"end":368.754,"text":"他們應該要取得專業證照的一個培訓那這裡面沒有涉及到我們國軍軍內的一些事務這樣子好 但是因為會有出席名單會有來上課的名單所以本席還是這一點跟我很不好意思我特別有問他們他們有說明說因為這個是當時是"},{"start":373.098,"end":376.561,"text":"因為新冠疫情影響所以是遠端授課遠端授課的結果訓練的名冊由中電經自存所以因為這樣所以沒有對外提供所以反而因為COVID的關係所以人員名單沒有外流"},{"start":388.911,"end":404.685,"text":"好 那表示國防部跟國防大學有做了一些清查啦那麼我想整體來說部長包括其他的單位我們還是做一個提醒跟提示包括這一間公司未來的合作的狀況建議你們要把它放進黑名單裡面"},{"start":406.266,"end":409.927,"text":"因為這個他們確實有時機那我也知道在標的過程當中時機很重要時值的績效啦就經驗所以這個部分就是我做一個提醒另外呢部長我知道今天我們其實重要的是針對有關於我們國防軍事計畫及財務負擔能力的動態平衡評估報告"},{"start":431.815,"end":455.732,"text":"其實今天報紙也都講了這一份報告當中有特別點出來的就是在說出的部分如果把我們的國防特別預算為什麼要用特別的原因就是因為擔心對於社會福利啦年金給付啊健保補助還有教育支出等等造成所謂的排擠效應所以本席包括我們民進黨民進黨團都非常同意放在特別預算喔"},{"start":459.895,"end":468.823,"text":"但是剛剛主席也特別提到了說這個因為報告交的晚所以還要再排一次那本席是特別建議啦就是說如果是這樣這個題目的話應該要把財政部還有主計處相關的單位找來因為說實話這個國防部只管國防安全"},{"start":478.371,"end":485.833,"text":"有關於這個社會福利預算啊年金給付啊健保補助跟教育支出其實這個不是你們管的啦齁啊這個錢該怎麼用其實也不是你們來說說明所以這個部分我認為啦齁這個說實話今天我想問的時候我比較想要問的是財政部跟主計處但是有一個最新的訊息當然就是今天自由時報的頭版也刊登了台中市長劉秀燕她的專訪"},{"start":507.379,"end":526.492,"text":"裡面他特別提到了就是有三點那麼包括現在呢已經跟美方拿到這個所謂發價書的還有就是美方已經跟我們在做溝通的加起來大概八百八千億這個部分他同意然後呢他說八千億到一兆啊"},{"start":526.812,"end":544.983,"text":"是 八千億到一兆來 我還沒有講完喔那 然後它有關於說是這個政府民間委託我們台灣商購的這個部分它也加進來所以會有一兆所以看到這個報導部長您覺得是不是在野黨可能同意會有轉圜"},{"start":546.024,"end":566.337,"text":"你怎麼看我第一個我還是要強調我們這個是一定敵情威脅跟整體戰力的一個需求所做的一個系統性跟完整性的規劃是所以我們的七大能力的建構我們認為缺一不可那當然還是要感謝盧市長他沒有侷限於說這是一定要軍購他認為只要是"},{"start":568.538,"end":595.732,"text":"符合戰力所需的看起來應該是說他都可以來支持不一定要侷限於某一個管道這樣這是那第三個就是他他有提到說這個有如果有非軍用的我是看到新聞但是我們這個的特別預算都是拿來做軍用的所以我在這邊也說明我們這個是有一個系統性跟整理性的規劃那希望我們"},{"start":596.912,"end":615.92,"text":"有一些有納入年度預算有困難的情況之下在尋求我們的預算穩定然後資源集中的這樣子的一個需求之下我們當然希望這個不分朝野還是支持我們這個一兆2500億的這樣子的一個整體的一個"},{"start":617.882,"end":621.967,"text":"這個特別預算的一個需求的規劃好 部長雖然說這個看起來這個頭版像是一個好消息啦但是我其實還是強烈的質疑尤其是提到這個有關於還是有部分要回歸到所謂年度預算"},{"start":634.284,"end":642.729,"text":"一旦上回公年度預算那就會有剛剛您報告所說的這個排擠的部分所以我強烈懷疑甚至於擔心這會不會是一個國民黨的唱雙簧因為從我們這個軍購特別條例出來到現在國民黨的黨內就一直有不同的聲音"},{"start":651.775,"end":675.392,"text":"但是回到後來都屈服在黨主席底下啦所以我是強烈的懷疑啦這會不會是一個黑白臉的唱雙簧啦因為畢竟還是有一塊部分他認為還是要回到年度預算喔那回到年度這個所謂公務預算的時候他一樣會存在有排擠的部分所以部長你是不是覺得這個預算就可以這麼順利的可以通過"},{"start":676.62,"end":680.484,"text":"我們持續努力跟朝野的各政黨來溝通好 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謝謝秘書長我想這次我們安排 市委會安排有關於法警職權形式還有法院安全秩序的專題報告呢 當然也是"},{"start":26.018,"end":40.642,"text":"因為先前才發生在台中地院這個不幸的事件這個台中律師公會的理事長被當時人掌撥那其實這個影片畫面大家看了之後都覺得很震驚那麼怎麼可能會發生這樣的狀況而且當時法警都在旁邊那麼有沒有適時的應該要"},{"start":46.363,"end":51.466,"text":"這個採取警棍來制止這樣的行為或是有更積極的這個作為那麼可是大家看到的其實狀況就是說法警基本上沒有太多的積極的作為剛剛秘書長其實也講了認為說這次可能是法警在遲疑他在面對這樣的狀況的時候遲疑所以沒有辦法緊急的應變所以呢在這邊的話本席也想要提出的就是事實上我有去查過一些資料"},{"start":74.201,"end":87.169,"text":"那麼立法院在第九屆的委員的時候就是第四會期當時也曾經辦過一場叫做法庭安全的公聽會那當時為什麼會辦理這個法庭安全公聽會呢是因為在106年那時候其實陸陸續續也發生了好幾起在法院裡面發生的一個暴力的事件所以當時那時候的主辦的召委應該是蔡易瑜委員所以召開了這個法庭安全公聽會"},{"start":103.758,"end":114.805,"text":"那也邀請了很多的專家學者然後以及法警工會的代表都有在現場那麼都有在談到有關於法警的一些職權行使的問題那包含譬如說編制員額不足職權"},{"start":120.268,"end":136.627,"text":"的依據不明還有法警的申請制度也僵化法警的人力組成老化還有法警的值班報酬過低等等這些問題那麼事實上到現在已經10年了那不知道司法院在這段時間裡面到底有沒有一些"},{"start":137.948,"end":156.844,"text":"這個更積極的作為怎麼樣去改善現在法警職權行使不明的狀況那麼因為呢如果說法警的這個他的整個能力沒有辦法提升的話那當然一定會影響到法院的安全所以是不是可以請秘書長來告訴我們就是這十年來到底司法院做了些什麼"},{"start":157.965,"end":171.772,"text":"首先跟委員報告謝謝委員非常關心我們法警都會非常高興其實我們在108年就曾經就在法組法就這個法警職權行使把它明定"},{"start":172.873,"end":197.825,"text":"可惜那次就送進大院因為屆時不連續就退回那當然我們後續就沒有再提出來那另外一個這是第一個法治部分那另外一個關於法警的職等陳儒委員剛剛所說在公定會大家也提出來了其實我們也很努力可是這會牽涉到整個政府職等的問題老實說我們也蠻挫折的"},{"start":198.325,"end":221.655,"text":"那同樣的薪資也是一樣就好像書記官的薪資一樣要提高又牽涉到全國公務人員的薪資問題所以我們也很挫折我們真正最精進的方法罰警確實不夠各位如果去法院看只有刑庭有罰警民庭絕對沒有罰警可是我們不能說民庭沒有危險會發生可是"},{"start":222.575,"end":249.147,"text":"因為刑事案件他的張力比較大我們還是所有法警要投注在這個區塊所以民庭的部分老實說啦就是見警慮讓法警出出入入讓民眾看到知道法院有法警老實說民庭沒有警力那我們唯一能夠用的就是保全因為我們人力真的不足我們就用保全可是保全他只能單純的"},{"start":251.128,"end":257.151,"text":"維護秩序好 了解了 那麼其實呢 我想這個罰警人力不足的問題這一定是要解決啦 這個就像是剛剛秘書長講的在每個法庭裡面他可能都會有遇到就是有他的行為或他情緒不穩定的當事人發生了這個不管是暴力的行為或是有一些緊急應變的狀況的時候真的是需要罰警來維護"},{"start":274.5,"end":292.71,"text":"那剛剛有講到其實因為一般的老百姓其實對於法警跟警察其實搞不清楚大家會以為法警是警察但其實法警不是警察那麼法警如果說按照你們現在法院組織法的規定的話它是歸屬於司法行政職務它更類似於像是一個司法行政"},{"start":293.57,"end":303.038,"text":"在性質的公務員而且法警目前的受訓看起來只有四個月不管是專業訓練加實務訓練事實上只有四個多月然後你們平時訓練實施計畫目前只要求至少四十個小時我有去看了你們所列的訓練計畫的項目事實上這樣子目前的規劃夠嗎"},{"start":316.448,"end":324.674,"text":"而且對於整個緊急應變還有就是整個法警他在面對這樣有暴力的狀況緊急應變狀況的時候呢他的這個實際上的擒拿的技能或是他反制的技能這個部分的話平常是由誰來指導是由我們的警政署的教練去指導嗎"},{"start":334.961,"end":361.598,"text":"跟委員報告當然最主要是法院自己要去指導那我們會請警政署的人員來協助就是請拿這種專技部分可是我可以跟委員報告其實各法院都會要求法警一定要就像我講的要常常運動他要維持他的體力一定要維持體力不好意思我先打斷一下我是不是待會可以請那個林副局長"},{"start":362.793,"end":366.795,"text":"主席跟委員報告我在警大服務的時候我們罰警班都會到警大安排正常的課程來訓練訓練的話像有勤拿、柔道、警技這些都會加以訓練"},{"start":389.128,"end":414.096,"text":"那他們的標準就是他們的訓練的程度要達到什麼樣的標準呢如果說今天有一個身體強壯的一個當事人或是他可能本身也學一些功夫的話有可能制服嗎法警有可能制服嗎跟委員報告啦當然我們在警大四年四年全部都要上樓刀而且每個禮拜四小時那個程度當然是不一樣所以為什麼司法警察跟我們的法警"},{"start":415.376,"end":436.406,"text":"我們在111年的時候因為這種問題司法機關跟我們警政署簽訂一個受理的一些進入司法機關的程序通常就是我們跟法警室還有我們線上巡邏跟我們勤務中心大概通報了以後我們110接受報案了以後我們勤務中心會馬上跟法警室聯繫不過就是說你們這樣的聯繫中間還是會有一段時間是耽擱的"},{"start":441.028,"end":469.308,"text":"現在就是說也有另外一種想法就是說有沒有可能法警未來全部都是改由像是由警政署這裡編制專門的警察然後就直接擔任在法院裡面駐守的法警就像是立法院我們有諸位警隊也是由警政署派保六等等來有這個編制"},{"start":470.967,"end":497.507,"text":"所以我們尊重司法機關最後的決定我們請求權力配合好 我認為說這個其實可以去思考一下有沒有這個可能性另外就是說是對於這個法警職權行使法的立法看起來我覺得還是有這個必要性否則的話現在因為蠻多專家學者有提到嘛就是對於法警的職權目前是不清楚的"},{"start":497.867,"end":514.771,"text":"因為他職權不明所以至於罰警他在真的什麼時機他必須要去制止他也覺得很惶恐萬一他做不好可能又會被懲戒等等的所以這部分話可能也請司法院在思考是不是應該要盡速的也要提出"},{"start":515.171,"end":530.542,"text":"法警的職權行使法還有本席也希望能夠了解近十年來就從106年之後到現在到底在法院有發生多少起的暴力事件之後也可能要請司法院再提供給我一份相關的資料好嗎好的請林副局長可以先回座那接下來本席還有一個"},{"start":538.488,"end":549.875,"text":"事情我們知道其實大法官在上禮拜五他又做了一個新的憲法判決好115年的憲派制3號判決這次的憲法判決是針對邵氏法第15條的後段而違憲那麼我想就是這個五人大法官他們到現在已經做成了四項憲法判決"},{"start":562.742,"end":582.327,"text":"那另外三位沒有參與的大法官基本上他們都在歷次都有提出所謂的不同意這個憲法判決的意見書那麼面對而且一再的主張這個五人大法官他們的憲法法庭組成是違法的有缺陷的"},{"start":583.967,"end":607.999,"text":"面臨到這樣的一個狀況我想請問司法院院長到底有沒有請總統儘速提名大法官因為現在司法院院長是大法官兼司法院院長那現在司法院院長代理院長是謝明陽大法官他有沒有曾經請求我們賴慶德總統要儘速提名大法官"},{"start":609.318,"end":636.287,"text":"那因為大院長有沒有請求他個人的事情我也不便回答那可是我整體上可以回答委員的就是說因為提名權是在總統而且這是憲法保留的那以我們大院長的職務職位來講對於這個總統是不是要行使憲法賦予的提名權以及何時行使我們本院是應該要尊重的"},{"start":637.054,"end":656.928,"text":"是 可是這已經是構成一個憲法的危機了嘛對 它竟然是一個憲政的危機那麼更何況現在這個大法官是兼任司法院的院長那麼在院長一直不出缺的情況之下那又是由大法官來代理司法院院長那事實上會影響到整個司法院的院務的運作包含人事的安排啊 調動的等等啊所以呢 事實上我覺得憲法法庭然後呢 至於司法院"},{"start":664.833,"end":691.488,"text":"都應該要正式的行文或是正式的公開要發表公開的聲明請求賴清德總統要儘速提名大法官依照我們憲法訴訟法的規定本來他的要求就是要三個月之內吧兩個月之內必須要提名新任的大法官那麼大法官現在接二連三連三連四連五然後陸陸續續又做出了這個看起來是有明顯"},{"start":693.61,"end":712.926,"text":"違憲違法瑕疵的憲法判決這也會影響到未來基層的法院是不是應該要遵守大法官所作的憲法判決這真的是一個嚴重的憲政僵局那本席是希望民主黨可以把本席的期許或要求那待會給"},{"start":714.512,"end":739,"text":"謝明洋代理院長請他一定要盡速的請賴清德總統來提名大法官現在不是說立法院沒有審而是他根本沒有提名人選這造成這樣的憲政僵局其實國人看不下去對於法界來講其實也是造成非常非常嚴重的影響這觀感非常的不好好不好 可以請秘書長把本席的意見帶回去"},{"start":740.866,"end":748.753,"text":"好的OK那就謝謝好那我們就是請司法院提供的資料就麻煩大概一個禮拜之內提供給本席好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168013","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168013","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d0265d86f2f18c67f950e5cc77a1e6e55334e86b5f84e1ac97994c33887c7127165d56d12b5959f05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉書彬","委員發言時間":"10:11:32 - 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有請楊總裁請中央銀行楊總裁"},{"start":8.411,"end":28.944,"text":"劉仁早總裁早我們現在首先來討論一下台幣改版的問題在看到現行的台幣它的偽造率是非常低的數位化的支付也在提升我想你們這次要改版的一個很重要的原因可能是防衛技術要升級還有數位跟綠色轉型是嗎這是你們最主要的目的嗎"},{"start":35.797,"end":58.104,"text":"我想呢最主要的目的呢也是在於這個議題我來是不是請我們的發行局來回答這個問題不過我想因為時間這個是應該從你們報告當中拿出來的這是其實這兩個目的是最重要的嘛對不對這個您說哪兩個是最重要的防衛技術升級的需求還有數位跟綠色轉型的需求"},{"start":59.605,"end":84.3,"text":"這個我想一個改版也不是就只有這兩個目的當然當然也不是這兩個目的我跟委員報告台灣二十幾年二十四年我知道我知道二十四年我們才改版事實上我們裡面的design我們的設計說實在跟我們台灣目前在經濟社會文化方面都已經是"},{"start":85.88,"end":101.804,"text":"我知道總裁我知道這個議題我都看過你的報告我現在想問的下面是說這個改版看起來有24年沒啦所以有些需求對不對那我現在的問題是你們在規劃呢是應該是2026年訂稿之後經過設計的他會置版跟試印嘛最快是2028年117年要去編列預算起來說立法院通過順利的話就會開始首批印製嘛對不對對那請問一下齁那這樣子會因為現在"},{"start":112.586,"end":120.936,"text":"中東的這樣的情勢我們的預算什麼的中油啊台電都大幅增加了支出等等你們還有動漲嘛對不對那這樣子你們會不會延後了這樣一個執行不會好不會那沒關係我再繼續問下去那不會齁這個時候應該只能增加十幾億嘛對不對每年大概要增加十幾億"},{"start":131.529,"end":137.256,"text":"我們會就是說每張到目前為止我們評估還是會就是說會增加成本1.5塊了解好現在問題重要的是有特別性就是說你們會增加二字頭例如說200 2000個新超比例對不對那這樣的一個情況就是說這個比例增加大概會多少"},{"start":148.291,"end":155.658,"text":"會不會增加通膨或是說你每當會節省預算因為你印製的成本每次都不用再換叉我想這個兩百兩千會不會增加通膨節省這個不會增加通膨吧 應該不會"},{"start":167.29,"end":169.651,"text":"應該不會啦你的感受讓民眾感覺尤其現在呢我以每次兩百塊的比例兩百塊的拿出來如果變得比較多每次有兩百塊那變成說呢我的物價可能就說剛好有兩百塊本來從一百塊出頭變成接近到兩百塊啊那當然有這個需求啊不會啦"},{"start":184.5,"end":203.617,"text":"形式上面就有這樣的一個狀況嗎不會因為這個超卷就是說一百兩百五百一千兩千這都是一個搭配啦不會我們就說我們兩百就增加了兩百的話呢那會不會就是導致通膨不會中央銀行在"},{"start":203.817,"end":203.877,"text":"我...我..."},{"start":226.443,"end":245.051,"text":"你所謂的硬體增加改版對不對對 會啦但是他一share了以後應該就不會很多啦因為我們如果說就硬體來更新的話大概就是說全部要46億是不是"},{"start":247.13,"end":252.134,"text":"那你16億元那是由民間來支出嗎那你是不是要做一下補貼民間是民間對啊是民間但是你增加他的預算啊你增加16億的支出你不需要幫他支付一些費用嗎"},{"start":265.322,"end":270.707,"text":"總裁你必須要苦民所苦就算是銀行或是點鈔機等等的啊我想是這樣子啦就是說他如果說就廠商來講的話廠商去ATM調整的話呢那是廠商賺錢反而是他賺錢啦而不是他負擔啦"},{"start":286.004,"end":296.594,"text":"沒有我說 你說光學 識別鏡 硬體等等的這個不是增加負擔嗎 你的角度看起來很奇怪這個大概就是說是銀行要負擔銀行要負擔那銀行負擔的話 我總覺得如果說以16億來講的話銀行那麼多"},{"start":306.963,"end":314.087,"text":"賺的錢很多可以支付起來就對了是不是我總覺得 銀行來講那超商的部分怎麼辦啊 點等的部分齁在這邊你要從民間的角度去看你現在應該是一個 我想齁 我跟委員報告像這種調整齁 像這種調整以前都調整過了啦那以前調整過的話 它在調整的過程都很順利那這些的問題 以前也都面臨過啦"},{"start":333.556,"end":351.468,"text":"所以在經驗上應該就說它不是一個大問題好 那我們繼續往下看這部分有沒有包括紅色的部分應該是您的個人喜 接下來的這個有十二項然後您的個人喜這部分當然已經知道是保育生態那這邊您自己的喜好呢"},{"start":353.211,"end":362.58,"text":"你說如果在那個16項12項當中您的喜好這部分您的選項是什麼我個人的是不是我個人選項我剛剛也都在講啊他我們那個我們不會說按照1234這樣來排列啦這些都可以做參考啦"},{"start":370.587,"end":387.359,"text":"您的選項沒有 我的選項 我總覺得這都很好這都很好我們繼續 終於看到一個重要的問題央行這邊在19號的時候呢他做了一個國際原物料的原油價的這個因為有預測從58.3元變到85塊錢然後CPI變成1.8可是這個1.8其實是因為有了這個還漲的機制嘛 對不對然後才變 本來應該是2.15對不對那現在問的是說CPI"},{"start":400.288,"end":413.855,"text":"超過多少央行才會準備要升息我們一般來講都說2%是一個警戒線不過我總覺得2%它不是C0它不是那個最高點因為就是說2%就中央銀行來看的話2%是中長期的目標"},{"start":424.421,"end":433.844,"text":"對 可是總裁 你當初我們看到了 你在報告上面就出現了 實際上如果真正加進去沒有這樣的專案緩漲基礎的話就是2.15了嘛 對不對那過去大概2.5的時候大概就會調升了嘛 對不對這個到時候再說啦 現在也不能說我們2.5我們就一定要升啦"},{"start":444.548,"end":447.009,"text":"那如果其他國家的央行 包括歐洲央行跟聯準會施卡了呢我跟委員報告你看看現在美國的PCE 他的通膨他都2.8還有扣還3.1但是他說當然他的計畫是要下降的 要降息的"},{"start":467.737,"end":471.939,"text":"他要降息了那個是美國總統他去干預他們的聯準會啊不不不這個是聯準會他自己說的不是美國總統要指示他在這麼做的不是他的2.8跟3.1現在他的通膨率但是呢他還是在講說他可能要到2028年才能夠達到所以呢他的降息他現在在講的降息"},{"start":494.327,"end":504.269,"text":"楊朗總裁你剛說你可以知道你這個資料是從什麼時間出的因為三月二月底時間沒有啊他最近而已喔好如果是這樣的情況之下你可以看到國際趨勢你們看還不只是美國那跟還歐洲這一部分各國差異有差異我們就繼續再往下看那另外一個部分是看到的是中油現在累計的虧損到去年年底就804億對不對財務有緊繃那您知道他已經有提出3500億的四年增資計畫嗎不是"},{"start":520.912,"end":522.574,"text":"那請問從523章2022年開始到現在中油增資央行有沒有關注到經濟部或是中油的能源原物料的避險的事情"},{"start":539.253,"end":552.503,"text":"這個是他的職權而且我跟委員報告他們中友跟他們台電他們自己內部如何來避嫌我覺得中央銀行是"},{"start":553.984,"end":570.177,"text":"是沒有這個沒有啊總裁你要講得清楚你雖然看起來是看起來是經濟部的職權但是物價是由您在決定它的穩定度通貨膨脹是您來決定它如果有問題的話是不是你要決定不 這委員我跟您報告一下就是說"},{"start":574.62,"end":598.129,"text":"我們二五戰爭的時候 包括現在中東戰爭它這個都是原物料 都是供給面都是供給面的因素所造成的那供給面的因素所造成的 就要讓供給面的政策去對付它那供給面的政策對付它 這個行政院它就有一個物價穩定的小組中央銀行我剛剛也已經報過過了"},{"start":600.29,"end":603.232,"text":"我們中央銀行有兩個有兩個職責在這裡面呢第一個我們是涉及到匯率的問題涉及到利率的問題對然後想到匯率的問題我想到那現在美金需求就變得很多的時候不會影響到我們匯率現在匯率其實我們已經今天就已經出現這樣是不是要增加到三二十三三十二塊的這個標準啊"},{"start":623.486,"end":635.798,"text":"所以我就說啦匯率我們會一定會裝這是我們的職責這是一片連動的啦我想最後再最後一個問題就是經濟部跟中央的這個能源物料原物料必顯的這部分您有了解嗎我們基本上"},{"start":639.301,"end":656.349,"text":"基本上他們的那個避險的一個措施我們基本上我們也都會有注意他啦不過呢這是他們自己內部所做的一個避險的我知道那是你有知道因為你才做到後面的這個物價穩定的部分嘛包括做過匯率的部分去做一些改變嘛對不對是這個是他們的職權啦那這個是經濟部主要的那我們中央銀行也可以當然委員在講也沒有錯啦我們中央銀行也可以做一個advice啦"},{"start":666.873,"end":685.632,"text":"這只是說advice而已是一個對 就是你們互相有商量那我知道中央營養跟部會事實上是要做很好的在溝通是是是 委員這樣說也沒有錯啦OK 好 謝謝謝謝林委員下一位請賴會委員 委員質詢先宣告等到本席質詢完畢之後休息五分鐘謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168012","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168012","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d0265d86f2f18c67cc7be3cf7bd591485334e86b5f84e1ac97994c33887c71277ddab3ead9da41ef5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林岱樺","委員發言時間":"09:59:41 - 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油價"},{"start":54.071,"end":75.407,"text":"原物料與藥品價格被匯率波動放大的風險第二個呢這個保障是金融跟就業的穩定保障企業與銀行的外幣調度若更穩金融市場就較不容易因為突發的震盪而緊縮對投資融資就業當然有幫忙"},{"start":76.267,"end":84.995,"text":"那第三個呢這樣的穩定的一些政策呢也讓國際貿易與企業競爭力成為國際貿易跟企業競爭力的後盾外匯存底及黃金儲備會穩定新台幣對外匯率與確保國際支付的能力為企業在國際貿易中提供這個"},{"start":99.028,"end":116.652,"text":"安定的貿易基礎我講到這個啊其實當然外匯的台灣的外匯存體跟黃金庫存配置是否合理那在這邊呢我講到這三點保障其實是我要給央行說聲讚啦其實在外匯存體6029億的美金當國際金融震盪兩岸局勢緊張尤其現在"},{"start":122.834,"end":147.981,"text":"全球油價蕩漲的時候我們這筆錢確實是用來穩定新台幣穩定物價保護我國民生開支的最後一道防線美伊戰爭之下台幣匯率目前是穩定的所以在這邊也感謝總裁跟各位同仁的用心那當然我還是會提到這個台幣穩定台幣價值的兩大支柱的對比到底黃金儲備跟債券"},{"start":148.681,"end":177.619,"text":"那黃金呢還是硬通貨啦這個價值基礎具有內在的價值而且是避險之王不會隨著國家的信用消失而歸零如果現在真的發生債券要貸的話會是貸黃金不會是貸鑽石其實理由就在這邊那債券呢這個是本席的這個對於為什麼本國持有這麼高比例的美債我是有疑慮的還是在於債券它是他國的信用保證"},{"start":178.479,"end":184.366,"text":"它的價值基礎完全取決於發行國的幣值跟主權債性也就是會面臨發行國的通膨與信用貶值所以當美元在貶的時候我們國家也可能會跟著貶"},{"start":196.801,"end":200.903,"text":"它在美元漲的時候我們台灣的台幣也會跟著連動性的漲這就是一個我們要注意所以財務操作的基本原則是風險規避我想這個是基本常識"},{"start":213.669,"end":236.443,"text":"財務操作的基本原則是風險規避所以美債持有將近外匯存底的八成甚至八成五為什麼把雞蛋全部放在同一個籃子裡有沒有評估增持其他工業國家的債券呢以間接強化外交的影響力比如說我想目前我們最"},{"start":239.245,"end":255.631,"text":"一個事件在美中的這個加稅的競爭當中中國他就曾經喊出說好啊如果美國你再繼續對我中國做不合理的加稅的話那我就要拋售美債"},{"start":257.612,"end":286.767,"text":"這就是對於在只有當一個債券的持有是對於外交的影響力我是不是也可以對其他的工業國家本國我們對於德國日本的債德國他也可以發行美債啊英國也可以發行美債啊日本也可以發行美債啊當然他們國家的債券我們當然也可以評估啊有沒有可能這樣的這也間接的在我們影響外交影響力當中我們的貨幣政策是可以盡一點心力的"},{"start":287.367,"end":301.305,"text":"另外在投資學的三大原理流動性跟獲利性跟安全性當我國過渡只有這麼多的美債這個安全性又在哪裡呢好 這個總裁你先暫時先把這個我的問題先放下我們再看黃金"},{"start":305.61,"end":331.021,"text":"黃金在各國 這個是我調出來的資料這個各國持有美國公債的比例跟黃金的比例我就看後面這五年2020年3月到2025年3月這當中國際上持有美債其實是最後的2020到2025是持平的甚至也緩慢下降但是黃金是升值的"},{"start":331.821,"end":333.242,"text":"這個是一個國際趨勢這個是你們提供給我的我們從78年一直到115年2月我整個黃金的存庫38年來是持平的"},{"start":347.632,"end":356.922,"text":"這跟國際上的一個局勢上那所以這也要救教總裁那為什麼黃金不增持呢這兩年來的黃金價格從2176美元超到現在5200、1100"},{"start":365.47,"end":392.703,"text":"五千兩百一十一美元漲幅高達百分之一百四當然這一兩週有下降但是你不可以去否認一件事實這樣的一個是呈現一個上升的趨勢黃金作為實質保證的戰略價值當全世界央行都在這個曲線上獲利避險的時候台灣央行的黃金石油量卻是一條死魚幾十年沒有成長好我在這邊有一個具體針對"},{"start":396.284,"end":412.429,"text":"這兩個這樣的訴求總裁你可以一併的表達您的看法在降低資產配置高風險的策略提出如何解決主要債券過度集中的風險的說明是否評估增持其他工業國家的債券來分散風險並間接強化外交影響力"},{"start":414.87,"end":431.66,"text":"另外也提出黃金持有策略的評估報告為新台幣提供更強大的實質支撐對應全球的在信貨幣的貶值潮總裁您回應一下我覺得"},{"start":433.281,"end":451.352,"text":"委員分析得很好你分析得很好不過我想因為你時間也有限所以你也要我們做功課那我非常贊同就是說我們也來就是說做個功課來看看能不能來說服我們委員所提出來的這個"},{"start":455.675,"end":467.583,"text":"都不調整啊當然啦當然啦就是說這個這個我所謂的說服的話呢表示就是說我們的做法是什麼也不是說就是硬梆梆的就NO也不是這個意思"},{"start":470.885,"end":499.222,"text":"好 那兩週內提供出來好嗎是是是 一定會那另外本席要針對這個當然了外匯存體是可以穩健但不能過度集中這是本席一再強調其他工業國家的債券是否也予以評估黃金可以不追高但是不能沒有策略來維持國內物價跟獲利的穩定央行必須具備與時俱進的合理外匯存體跟黃金資產的配置"},{"start":499.802,"end":515.111,"text":"那這是本期的還是一個最終的期待那另外我針對信用管制的無差別性那這個台灣房價的所得比就是衡量購屋壓力的指標呈現的是區域分化"},{"start":516.431,"end":533.177,"text":"這個六都跟其他縣市即使是六都 北 中南 高雄市跟台北市整個在這個購屋的壓力的指標就已經有很大的不一樣所以央行是否考慮分期管制"},{"start":533.817,"end":559.837,"text":"譬如說針對特定的房屋過熱區淡黃區實施高強度的管制但給予非六都或基礎建設發展中的地區或者是北中南東我們的區域發展是不平衡的那是不是給予非六都或者是北中南東不同的區域或者是在基礎建設發展中的地區有較大的信貸彈性"},{"start":561.698,"end":584.929,"text":"那給予支持地方創生跟人口回流所以在這邊是不是您願意來評估滾動式的檢討納入區域差異指標在你做信貸的時候因為就我一個直轄市高雄市我就覺得我跟台北市的資源長期以來就分配不均了我不要說六度光是六度我就覺得北中南"},{"start":585.689,"end":607.21,"text":"就已經有很大的差別了我們跟台南跟高雄跟台北我就覺得差別很大包括新北也是一樣我都覺得我們都覺得相關的資源基礎建設我們南部高雄就有一條快速道路你很難想像你在台北新北基隆桃園"},{"start":608.692,"end":627.214,"text":"幾十條的幾十條一二十條的這個快速道路你很能想像喔快速道路我們高雄只有一個八八屏東高雄一條現在要增建第二條叫做國七你看北部台北新北桃園基隆包括他的這個捷運的綿密度"},{"start":627.995,"end":648.353,"text":"所以光是這樣的基礎建設 包括 只是說你在做信貸的時候我希望你能夠納入區域指標 針對六都與非六都 這是一個指標你針對區域的發展 北中南東 也是一個區域指標能夠呢 這個 以及呢 在基礎建設發展地區需要較大的 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它是發生在法庭外嘛 對不對所以我們有關發生在法庭內的這個在法庭內的這個安全秩序跟法庭外的安全秩序它其實有不同的法源依據法庭內它其實很清楚就是法院組織法"},{"start":137.702,"end":160.038,"text":"這個第88條跟89條審判長在法院這個有關於開閉審理訴訟他都有指揮之權第89條就是說這個法庭開庭的時候審判長有維持秩序之權這個所有法源大概就在這一條所以整個法庭內基本上他的執行這個法庭內法庭安全的秩序執行基本上就是由審判長進行訴訟指揮"},{"start":162.259,"end":186.462,"text":"這在法庭內就是審判長負權責那法警就是輔助的執行而已但在法庭外呢法庭外的在這個簡單講就是法院裡面但是在法庭外如果在法院外面當然就屬於一般的警察啦但在法院裡面但是在法庭之外的這個安全維護呢這個目前是沒有法律的依據的"},{"start":187.583,"end":211.905,"text":"目前我看到的我們的法院依據就是法條依據大概就是各個法院大家自己制定的安全維護實施要點對不對是不是這樣就有關法院內但是法庭外就這次發生事情的這樣子的這個狀況它沒有法律依據它就是各個法院大家自己制定的所謂安全維護實施要點這就是他們的法條依據而已這個"},{"start":215.138,"end":230.944,"text":"這個整個法條依據最好它的執行就是由法警負責依這個要點來執行所以它的依據就只有這樣子這個說起來是我個人認為說這個是在法源上面有點不足這個部分這個"},{"start":233.151,"end":255.106,"text":"我希望司法院這個部分就這個法院內法庭外的安全維護的法源依據的部分能夠是不是在法院組織法或是相關的修法裡面把它做一個制定讓它具有一個真正法律的依據而不是依照實施要點這是第一點第二點我看你們剛剛講到這個書面報告你們針對這個我們剛剛講的第一點就是針對這個案子你們已經採取了相關措施"},{"start":262.642,"end":287.118,"text":"你們在講說,其實在鑑於114年,也就是去年7月間發生的法庭內外的暴力滋擾事件你們在去年7月就發函要求各法院確實落實法院安全維護改善方案對不對你們去年發文是要求落實那這個改善方案,法院安全維護改善方案是在什麼時候制定的呢"},{"start":294.502,"end":315.728,"text":"在105年9月30號制定這個法院安全維護的方案這個方案我等一下後續跟你討論這個方案其實所謂的這個法院安全維護改善方案其實跟這次的個案幾乎沒有關係因為他的這個改善方案是什麼?他其實規範的就是第一個法庭外面的"},{"start":316.812,"end":342.879,"text":"入口處他就規範入口處的安全檢查而已喔還沒有你剛剛講的收身啊調查這是對你們所以所以這個這個所謂所謂安全改善方案就是有關於法院的入口處的安檢這是第一個另外一個就是有關於人犯在法庭內的相關規範以及他的在法院裡面人犯的動線大概就這個規定而已在這一次的案子"},{"start":344.073,"end":358.824,"text":"他並不是人犯 他還是訴訟主體他並不是在押人犯所以並不在你們的這個安全維護改善方案裡面所以其實你要求他落實這個安全維護改善方案也跟這次的案子無關 對不對是不是這樣 秘書長"},{"start":361.698,"end":375.974,"text":"其實要跟委員報告這個其實那個是強化法院安全維護方案其實剛剛委員提到的對於這個法警在法庭外"},{"start":376.815,"end":405.211,"text":"怎麼一個處理其實我們都有規定沒有沒有剛剛那個改善方案沒有啊改善方案是沒有可是這個是就像委員剛剛提到的各法院他們對於法庭以外法院內的秩序安全的維護都有自己的辦法我知道我現在就可以討論你們接下來你們在第三點你們提到後續的經營作為裡面你們第一個說"},{"start":406.252,"end":428.126,"text":"你們就是說第四點 你們說要研議制定標準化的指引 要優化訴訟指揮的效能這裡面你們提到 第一個要制定法院安全維護指引也就是相關的SOP 目前沒有 這目前沒有 所以你們要制定第二個你們要強化法庭內脫序行為訴訟指揮指引你為什麼寫強化 就是現在已經有了"},{"start":429.062,"end":444.733,"text":"就法庭內的這個指引其實你們已經有了但是在法庭外就是這次發生事情的法庭外的部分你們目前沒有指引對我們對於這就是真的是各法院在我們並沒有制定指引這個我們要改進所以這個部分你們要制定是是是"},{"start":445.453,"end":467.12,"text":"那這個部分我是希望說我們把這個法源依據大家都搞清楚在哪個部份我們需要加強哪個部份的指引法庭內法庭外我們把它分清楚才有辦法才不會說整間的喇喇就會住像今天有的在談法庭內的秩序然後再談這個然後把他拉來這個個案其實都不是這次的個案很簡單就是法庭內"},{"start":468.362,"end":480.649,"text":"在法院內但是在法庭外這個是目前法治上面的漏洞這部分我希望說能夠做補強那我們今天的第二個主題是有關法警的職權行使"},{"start":482.117,"end":504.83,"text":"剛剛大概也有委員整個討論就是有委員大家就著重在這個法警職權刑事法的部分但是其實我們目前我們這些法警法警的任用資格其實他的任用資格的法源就跟一般警察不一樣他的任用資格是按照司法人士條例"},{"start":506.156,"end":528.814,"text":"的這個第四條第一項第九款他所制定那他的任用資格也跟一般警察一般警察是用警察人員任用條例但是我們這個法警他是用司法人員人事任用條例的這個第26條有關這個這個其任用資格有法律定資那有法律定資之後呢我們這個這個這個就就"},{"start":531.716,"end":537.484,"text":"定在哪個法律裡面呢 定在法院組織法裡面對不對 就定在法院組織法裡面那所以這個"},{"start":539.755,"end":562.056,"text":"目前大家所認為說現在法警執行上面他們的法源依據不足這個法警執行職務的法源依據不足確實是法源依據不足那要如何改善這個法源依據不足過去其實司法院並不是沒有做司法院在108年就提出了法院組織法的這個修法草案而且受到立法院來審查"},{"start":563.357,"end":579.286,"text":"但在立法院審查的時候就分成不同的意見有的意見是支持盡快的由法院組織法修法來明定這個法警的這個職權行使但是有的意見就認為說不應該在法院組織法裡面訂定他應該要另訂這個法警職權行使法對不對"},{"start":584.429,"end":606.858,"text":"好 那我個人認為這樣子啦 你要訂在哪裡都可以但是你就是要把現在目前法警執行這個執行職權他的這個法律上面目前的缺漏的部分在法制上面趕快把它補足 對不對所以你們認為應該訂在法院組織法也很好那時候因為屆期不連續沒有送是不是再送經濟法院來"},{"start":607.938,"end":635.77,"text":"好不好 是什麼時候送進來我們在這會期這會期 要送進來這會期把法對 看是我們就回去你現在要訂定你要重新訂定一個法警職權刑事法可能又要經過一個一個你們內部的程序又要這個匯嫌匯嫌各個單位但是我們其實108年的法院組織法修正草案它已經是都經過這些程序了你只要送進來就可以了是對不對"},{"start":636.89,"end":649.787,"text":"所以這個部分先送進來大家我們委員會來討論我們立法院大家來討論有意見的話大家再來決定是不是要通過你們的法院組織法你看你們法院組織法的修正草案完不完備嘛對不對非常謝謝委員那這個部分齁其實"},{"start":654.921,"end":678.739,"text":"現在的這個警察跟這個法警他職權行使實在是警察你有警察職權行使法法警現在目前執行的依據都是一個行政規則而已啊所以當然是這個法律位階不足啦那最後一點點再一點點時間就是說談到法警了我們就來談法警人力的問題啊我們法警人力現在目前法警人力的配置這個秘書長你看這個這個"},{"start":681.004,"end":707.728,"text":"我按照我們的統計每年的案件量我們目前法警的配置最多的是台北地方我拿這個資料是檢察署不好意思可能請法務部法務部其實法院你一樣我們法院也是一樣我這個統計資料目前這個法警的配置台北地方台北地檢署"},{"start":708.867,"end":711.369,"text":"台北地院法警的人數是最多"},{"start":727.38,"end":748.771,"text":"高等法院這裡104台北地方法院是104人最少的金門分院一個法警而已我們剛剛前面的那些安全指引甚至人犯的押解要求兩個有相關案件要求兩個法警押解但是在金門只有一個法警要哪裡生第二個法警來押解公務員報告應該是七個"},{"start":751.557,"end":779.086,"text":"現在已經有七個法警了但是你看看台北地方法院一百零四個法警他一年的案件有多少案有六十一萬個案件六十一萬個案件有一百零四個法警來負擔那顯然再加上法警其實除了維持法庭的資訊他還有巡邏還有值班還有等等還有很多的其他的職務"},{"start":779.986,"end":794.291,"text":"我個人認為說法警這個量是絕對人力是絕對不足這部分我希望說你們能夠有一個改善的規劃現在我們有點依賴說要依賴保全人員那保全人員完全沒有法律依據"},{"start":795.543,"end":811.013,"text":"保全人員的法律指責完全沒有任何法院在法院裡面保全人員說要輔助法警他連輔助法警的法律依據都沒有這部分我希望說我們司法院把這部分都把這些漏洞把它補起來好不好是是是好 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其實還是中東站是影響最大啦對對對 所以也就是說我們就是說它持續的時間它的強度 還有就是說它涵蓋的範圍這個都是我們密切注意的對啊 因為你們這個預測是說當時的油價是每桶85美元嗎是是是 不是每桶 是全年是全年好 那現在就是說看起來油價大概85大概 這個價格有點低估了啦"},{"start":128.556,"end":139.307,"text":"不一定現在我跟委員報告現在大部分的國際的機構大概也都是用全年85塊來做一個情境的分析當然他也有用70用80用100他也有但是普遍大部分都是用85"},{"start":152.419,"end":180.535,"text":"那所以總裁是對於這個7.28%7%以上的經濟成長率有信心就對了以目前來講的話因為我們在強調的就是說美國的四大CSP就是國際雲端服務供應商去年我們的出口很好就是跟美國的科技業是連在一起的這些的科技業它的投資如果說很好的時候"},{"start":181.704,"end":207.643,"text":"我們來出口就好所以總裁認為是台灣的基本面沒問題我基本上以目前來講的話我們的基本面還是穩健的所以消息面短暫會受到影響那當然是長期拉到比較久的時間就今年來講你對7%以上的經濟成長率還是有信心就對了到目前為止我們還是做這樣的一個預測那一個是經濟成長率一個就是CPI那CPI我看"},{"start":208.343,"end":212.845,"text":"總裁的這個報告還是說維持溫和的1.8%也跟國外的評價起來稍微低了一點我們高一點我們有高一點嗎我們高一點那不是有到2點多的嗎他們是1.76我們1.8"},{"start":226.373,"end":244.93,"text":"也有機構平均到2.2%因為每一個機構是不太一樣我們就是說這些著名的機構平均起來它是1.7%同樣的啦就是說油價在漲那當然我們現在油有讓它動漲或是說稍微吸收第二個就是電價也希望能夠維持這個動漲"},{"start":247.993,"end":275.01,"text":"這個油電的雙轉機制現在我們稍微把它稍微減緩了一下那可是呢這個會不會影響到說這個實質壽星階級的這個實質的薪資還是會受到影響勒是 會啦會啦還是會應該也會不過以目前1.8來講的話我認為他們還是可以吸收的啦還是可以吸收對 還是可以吸收的啦好"},{"start":275.492,"end":299.532,"text":"那現在有關房價的部分嘛然後這個房價這個房市信用管制部分這個央行現在把這個自然第二戶的購屋的貸款成數呢從五成放寬到六成那大家有在有在有在想就是說因為你們的報告也提出來就是說這個可能是會因為現在有這個大量新建住宅提出所以呢這個要持續呢"},{"start":300.776,"end":325.633,"text":"這個有這個推薦代售新成物的壓力所以適度調整把五成呢提高到六成有助於消化代售的新成物是不是大概是這個用意就希望說房市能夠軟著陸是啦當然是說希望他軟著陸啦不過呢就是說剛剛講的這個預售屋的這個問題只是其中一點而已啦最主要的我總覺得應該是最重要的就是說要呼應民間對第二戶的需求啦"},{"start":329.696,"end":348.74,"text":"因為我們在報告裡面我們有談就是說第二戶的需求其實一直都有可是我們之前沒有放範但是我們第二戶呢都是要必須要就是說我們是把它認為就是說如果說你是自住的自住的因為如果說我第一戶我給我的兒女我的太太或是我的父母但是我第二戶我是要我自己的"},{"start":356.121,"end":377.328,"text":"對 那你先就是說因為你從五成放寬到六成嘛對啊所以就是說呼應他們的需求啦真正的用意在哪裡對 呼應他們的需求啊第二個呢就是說我們的信用管制也有一定的成效了啦不能就是硬梆梆的在那邊啦這也是啦"},{"start":377.828,"end":387.335,"text":"那所以這個要預防或是說要讓希望讓這個房市軟著陸除了這個信用管制稍微放鬆之外還有其他的方式嗎"},{"start":389.872,"end":411.166,"text":"我想當然也許我們的產業也會因為我那個時候我也是覺得就是說要供體時間軟著陸的意思就是說你有些時候在價格上也應該要做一些給一般大眾的一個讓利供體時間"},{"start":418.431,"end":446.429,"text":"因為你如果說一直在硬在那邊會累積那個能量會累積到時候呢他的Supply太大的時候你這個就是說有點像那個是指價格希望能夠再往下應該就是說他可以在他的允許維持在一定的利潤的情況之下可以讓這個那總裁認為說大概讓多少是合理的讓利"},{"start":447.21,"end":447.278,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":448.434,"end":469.324,"text":"我也一直在想因為說實在的我對因為每一個廠商每一個廠商他的獲利是多少我都不曉得我們也沒辦法去知道啦只有建商他知道啦那這個呢就是要他自己評估啦那你如果評估的話假如說假如說他的我就說產業總長你對於這些這些每個我們說產業好了啦這個產業不要講說建商就這個產業來講"},{"start":477.427,"end":497.587,"text":"那總裁認為說大概是讓利多少是一個也可以讓房市能夠軟縮不過我跟委員報告啦說實在的啦在前幾年的時候他們我個人也許我講了他們不高興啦就是說事實上他們在前幾年他們賺的很多啦"},{"start":498.287,"end":515.472,"text":"賺的比較多那現在呢就是說慢慢的釋放出一些的話我總覺得在允許的範圍之內我覺得也可以讓所以總裁認為說稍微讓利其實是可以達到雙贏就對了讓利如果說讓利這個是供需嘛一樣的嘛這是供需啊"},{"start":516.052,"end":519.074,"text":"你的價格如果說能夠下降需求者覺得就是說這個是他符合他的需求的話那他當然他就會買啊你如果說硬梆梆的在那邊的時候價格抬那麼高的話那當然需求者他就不會進去啊那那個量就不會出來啊"},{"start":534.701,"end":556.509,"text":"最後我再問總裁就是說總統他有指示希望擴大自主都更這個政策然後卓議院長也希望說自主都更的時候要讓地主不要付大的成本來重建那因為現在《影安法》的第72條之二已經排除了都更危老的適用"},{"start":557.649,"end":575.737,"text":"但是呢你們還有一個對於各個銀行有這個不動產貸款集中度的自主管理那因為這一條會變成說讓這個自主都跟業者他們去申請貸款的時候其實是受到一些限制啦那其實過去內政部也有一個"},{"start":577.358,"end":591.613,"text":"也有跟央行有開過會嘛那也希望說是不是能夠放寬這個自主都更裡面那這個不要把這個自主都更的這個借貸的部分呢納入不動產這個貸款集中度裡面"},{"start":593.234,"end":620.407,"text":"這個謝局長好像也有來開過會嗎我跟委員報告說實在的啦事實上在我們選擇性信用管制的時候呢自主都更的這個部分都是我們排除的對象我們第一個排除在銀行法是有說排除在你的不公產集中管理啦那集中管理那我跟委員報告事實上我們集中管理對於那些就是說不必要你銀行不必要給他信用的"},{"start":621.189,"end":622.62,"text":"我們做這樣的反而對這個"},{"start":624.848,"end":642.222,"text":"自住的都更反而是有利所以我跟委員報告事實上從2021年他的本國銀行都更這個我們報告裡面都有我知道可是你這我現在是特別指說自主都更的部分沒有自主性都更跟這個都是包含在這裡面事實上你在講這個的時候我也跟委員報告事實上我們也跟有內政部開過會"},{"start":653.911,"end":679.102,"text":"開國會他就說你這個要換刊事實上我們跟他解釋了以後他就接受了所以當你現在有沒有納入普通產的集中的管理的額度裡面都已經就是說他都接受我們的說法也就是說都更的這個部分我們都把他排除在外了有排除在外就對了他不會影響到他所以他也一直就是說後來他就接受了"},{"start":679.562,"end":680.506,"text":"OK 好 謝謝謝謝主席 謝謝總裁 謝謝坤臣接著我們請吳秉瑞召委質詢"}]}},{"id":"168017","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168017","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d0265d86f2f18c67cec0058c3b72820c117671a01da40a1397994c33887c712701cee844413abcda5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"10:34:19 - 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有請我們司法院高秘書長好 請高秘書長還有我們司法行政廳吳廳長法務部檢察司司長"},{"start":29.612,"end":47.347,"text":"那今天我看我們翁小玲召委今天排這樣的一個專題的一個報告其實代表我們立法院對於整個法庭實務所發生的事情其實都表達及時的一個關心整個制度怎麼樣來建制 這個其實是非常重要的一件事情"},{"start":47.947,"end":74.442,"text":"那我想這次台中地院這樣的一個發生暴力事件那雖然是這個打得耳光的是這個律師公會的一個理事長那只是這個是剛好對象讓社會引起注目那其實不管是不是打到這個律師公會的理事長或者是律師或者一般民眾這個都必須要來特別來做一個看看制度上需不需要如何來做一個精進的一個問題"},{"start":75.603,"end":94.058,"text":"那我看這次大家看到這樣的一個事件爆發以後本席的看法就有點不太一樣應該是從整個制度的一個根本來看我一直都認為說這個法警這個法警到底以現在來看的話"},{"start":95.479,"end":124.931,"text":"這一次大家的評論是在說律師批評現場法警沒有用現行犯去逮捕那後續的開刑就變成一個不公開的一個審理了那律師公會全聯會也呼籲司法院去正式建立對律師人身安全防護的一個機制是對律師的安全防護必須要這個機制要去建立對一般進入到這個法庭的人身的一個防衛機制都必須要去做一個建立啦那光去譴責我看意義不大"},{"start":125.691,"end":144.665,"text":"那基層的法警會講說我只是穿著警察的制服而已但是我的職權跟法源跟警察完全都不一樣我不曉得秘書長怎麼去看待這件事情以現在法警的定位跟職權來看的話"},{"start":147.861,"end":175.176,"text":"我三十年前也開始就在這個法院裡面這樣在行使律師的一個職務但是呢我相信法警它其實它真正的一個職務其實在支援整個審判的一個工作那支援這個審判工作呢也就是說它的角色其實跟它在服務整個審判秩序的一個維持那跟一般的警察那是完全不一樣的"},{"start":175.876,"end":179.182,"text":"那你警察是負責治安的維護啊犯罪偵查啊收集證據啊那我看這三個你認為會跟法警會有所異樣嗎我請教秘書長"},{"start":187.946,"end":205.399,"text":"謝謝委員提到這個法警的工作當然跟一般警察是完全不一樣就像陳茹這個委員所說的他重要是在法院的審判所以我的意思是你司法院跟法務部這邊的間諜其實是一樣的法警跟警察"},{"start":205.999,"end":215.641,"text":"他的職權是完全是不同的啦那你制度上來講的話你說他不是警察但實務上的話你看這次大家就要求你就必須要用警察的一個標準來看待這件事情了在要求這些法警這個我看起來也是不通你說一般法院跟檢察署會發生一些突發的狀況被告會脫逃或者是你在候審室裡面可能會產生一些衝突或者被告他也有可能自傷啊他也有可能去傷人啊"},{"start":235.026,"end":254.638,"text":"那甚至於就大家擔心的結球的問題那這一些你說全部要要求我們現在的法警去在現場做第一線的處理如果站在法警的立場來看的話那他到底有沒有足夠的法定權限可以處理這第一個要去思考的地方那第二個就是說"},{"start":256.661,"end":264.475,"text":"我看你法務部跟司法院你們其實應該好好去回答社會的是說如果沒有明確的司法授權的話"},{"start":266.325,"end":269.767,"text":"你這個法警發生這種事情的話,搞不好他還要打110,還要等警察來幫忙處理,那這個空窗期的責任到底誰來負的問題。所以這個職權的部分,法務部跟司法院這邊你們的看法到底是什麼,有什麼樣的法源依據,來要求我們這些法警。"},{"start":290.167,"end":305.539,"text":"其實就關於維持法庭秩序這個部分像執庭執行警衛解送人犯還有那個司法警察事務這是刑事訴訟法其實在解送人犯這個整個過程就涵蓋了"},{"start":306.434,"end":335.661,"text":"那個候審室的維護安全那解送人犯中秩序的維持他是有有授權的唯一其實最大沒有授權就誠如委員所說的在那個法院法庭外的空間這一塊是都沒有所以我們必須要這個部分要讓在希望能夠在法院組織法明確規定讓法警有法院依據不要再遲疑"},{"start":336.383,"end":361.894,"text":"那我相信你這樣 我看你可能到立法院來出燈板嘛其實很誠懇啦那翁委員其實他弄這樣一個專報的話我相信他也會支持你啦立法院也會去支持但是碰到一個問題喔你說立法院我們朝野我跟翁委員我們兩個來支持你們大部分大家應該比較不會有反對的一個意見這個沒有黨派之分嘛但問題有一個就是說"},{"start":365.296,"end":388.771,"text":"我全部給你的職權達到跟一般警察一樣啦或者維護整個法庭的一個秩序這個民眾也認為該去做一個確保可是你看現在缺員的問題啊你這個欠人你不要跟他說是我以前剛在當小律師的時候我看到以前那個台北地檢那個是光頭警長嘛對吧我想說他多大你知道嗎"},{"start":390.434,"end":417.059,"text":"結果他是委任還是五職等還是六職等而已六到六職等那也就是說呢法警長到七我的意思是說你法警的人力其實是不足啦是穿衣服衫好看而已啦真的是穿衣服衫好看而已啊你的待遇跟一般警察也不能比啊你的位階關節也不能比啊那你說你要留住人力那所以呢你這個喔"},{"start":418.086,"end":429.428,"text":"工作量也會增加啦你檢查機關或者是法院你這個人力調度多你必須要去大幅的增加我看你們這幾年是好像請了保全了嗎"},{"start":430.644,"end":457.061,"text":"對,跟委員報告,真的委員指到我們的痛點剛剛委員是講法源,說講法源其實同樣的,人力,法警的人力絕對不足那為什麼人力不足?我們受到總原額法控制住是對,根本我們剩不到一百個餘額可以用了其實各法院如果這樣算起來的話你法警要增加,真的是我們是抓金劍走的"},{"start":458.358,"end":486.977,"text":"總原額法的一個限制這當然是你們現在碰到一個最大的一個問題啦那其實喔我看整個從2016年整個刑事訴訟法的一個變革以後啊你說夜間不詢問制度上路以後啊你法院本來就比較長的時間你必須要去戒護這個羈押的一個被告那還有你看現在社會發生了這麼多集團性的一個犯罪以後人也人數也越來越多"},{"start":488.839,"end":504.668,"text":"那監察院又去糾正你們不能用借物為理由對被告任意施用借據否則就是違反公民跟政治權利國際公約的一個人權保障監察院講這個有他的道理可是會增加你們在整個實務上的一個困難"},{"start":505.649,"end":528.352,"text":"那你看大法官會議解釋785號他就講說你工作時間的上限加班的一個上限輪班間隔的部分這個輪班的一個公務員更換次序至少要連續11個小時的休息的一個時間從刑事訴訟法的制度的變革到整個社會集團性案件的一個暴增然後再"},{"start":529.85,"end":549.902,"text":"監察院再踢你們一腳,然後在整個大法官會議又跟你講說,有這樣的一個限制以後,讓你們更難去做人力的一個調配啦。但是,總原額法裡面,它當然是框住的。再來看看怎麼突破。但是呢,現狀之下呢,其實裡面還是可以有一些作為啦。"},{"start":550.382,"end":569.692,"text":"像譬如說訓練啊一般的專業訓練的方式你要怎麼去做一個提升讓法警雖然他本個工作性質跟警察不同不能畫上等號可是總是讓他對於整個勤務的流程突發的狀況該怎麼處理你們這些訓練的部分譬如說特定的訓練啊平常的訓練啊你們會說有"},{"start":576.736,"end":595.056,"text":"有的你也沒有一個規定出來,沒有一個制度出來,像譬如說我訓練的目的到底要幹什麼,時間要多長,去做一個規劃的話,把他們整個訓練把它給提升了,我相信對你們還是有幫助的,尤其是人不夠,心碎的部分。"},{"start":597.378,"end":624.446,"text":"像這一些 如果沒有去做一個妥善的一個因應的話人要因緣 你要救母 我不拿秘書 阿媳 法務部你們的看法是怎麼樣是辛苦 沒錯當然訓練 我們是剛剛已經都講 一定是加強再加強那薪水部分能夠提高 當然希望大院 還有我們行政院能夠支持這個是最好的這個 你看一般來看的話 你如果訓練不足的話"},{"start":626.883,"end":632.359,"text":"你這個實在是這種狀況你要避免它發生也很困難可是本席的看法是這樣"},{"start":633.618,"end":661.978,"text":"我跟汪委員對不管是各行政部門裡面人手的部分其實我們大部分都是在支持你們因為你常常你讓你一個制度喔讓一個在這邊從事這個工作的人對他的職業我看不到前景啊我看不到前景那你就變成你要讓他如何去看到那個前景然後降低那個流動率喔這個是行政部門在缺人手你首先要去解決的啦你這個如果沒有去解決的話說其他的喔"},{"start":663.539,"end":691.338,"text":"不好了 是那個官等那麼低啦薪水就是這樣子啦工作時間還是那麼還是那麼長啦啊 大家要做的事情要是一樣這麼多啦你說 這樣要怎麼維護整個法庭的一個安全品質原木求魚你做一個總結看看 我要聽聽你的看法第一個 當然訓練措施我們剛剛一直提 一直提 一直提我們絕對要做到那再來委員提到的 怎麼"},{"start":692.739,"end":716.276,"text":"讓法警願意投入這個工作只等薪水真的是我們是要求各機關來共同達成一個士氣的維護薪水一定是最重要的那訓練部分是司法院該做的我們絕對務實讓各法院一定要照一個環節一個環節一個環節的仔細去落實"},{"start":719.518,"end":738.518,"text":"這樣你安提出來嗎?你不能在這邊答覆啊剛剛跟那個報告說我們那個給各法院的強化措施是我們下禮拜就頒布給各法院那剛剛另外一個委員質疑的我們的各項的小節的精進方法我們一個月內那個是訓練那很好"},{"start":741.081,"end":757.518,"text":"我相信 翁委員跟我所關注的就是說你人 素質要體性 人要有膏你那個官等 穿著衣服看起來像警察他只是法定職權 又不是警察你怎麼樣留住這些人 讓他們看到他們整個職業的一個前景這你要有補啊 不然在這裡隱隱的 回去補啊"},{"start":760.34,"end":777.138,"text":"我們會跟著法處法修正他的法源希望能夠在這個職等上面也跟著突破你K出來我們兩個招委盡量來跟你們幫忙啦好不好那像這一次啊本席也參與整個律師法的共同的一個提案強化這個司法跟相關職場"},{"start":781.282,"end":807.324,"text":"這個職業場所的安全防護的一個義務你去明定禁止妨礙律師執行職務規範的刑事責任我們也期望說朝野之間大家共同來支持來保障律師職業安全不受非法的一個干擾但是本席剛所提出的秘書長你也很正面的一個回應我們也希望趕快你送到立法院大家好好來你們各個機關哪一個地方該去突破不然"},{"start":807.904,"end":823.262,"text":"不用幾年 因為這個馬上又爆發出來你這個人撈不住啦一個工作看不到願景的這個你說要限制降低他的流動率很困難的啦要加油一下 好不好好 謝謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝莊瑞雄委員的發言我跟莊昭偉我們兩個都有共同"}]}},{"id":"168016","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168016","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d0265d86f2f18c678337ddef66800695117671a01da40a1397994c33887c7127da94560aa36cc40e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"10:20:44 - 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t":"然後無法預見的個案它是一個具有高風險的對象2月10號才在法院炒過價3月17號開庭的時候竟然完全沒有完善的預防措施我想我們現在其實是有事前風險評估的機制對不對那到底這個風險評估是為什麼會失靈呢可以針對於我們事前已經發生那麼多次的訊息警告視而不見是不是可以請秘書長簡單說明一下"},{"start":72.54,"end":87.639,"text":"我真的很抱歉,我這件事其實真的事前就知道訊息那就是,要怎麼說呢,他就是沒落實明明知道了,那應該要怎麼處理,都應該要做了那我只能說,他就是沒做"},{"start":89.459,"end":109.113,"text":"但是我想這一件 因為已經不是第一次被打 也不是只有這個地方失靈而是整套系統在各個地方的落實都失靈可是我可以跟委員報告啦 真的這一件在台中地院發生因為我當過院長 其實在我的法院是不會發生"},{"start":110.92,"end":133.234,"text":"我一定是落實我們出乎意料之外其實王院長也被我重重的責備了一下怎麼會失靈這個是各法院的SOP啊真的是SOP啊不應該失靈竟然失靈真的跟全國抱歉真的是我只能這樣說而已"},{"start":135.868,"end":143.733,"text":"我想這個應該是要充分的檢討我們到底是這個訓練不落實沒有落實訓練還是我們的事前風險評估的機制不夠完善我想這個是需要"},{"start":156.961,"end":175.289,"text":"這個司法院來好好的檢討不然說我覺得如果我們事前風險評估我就必須釐清真相問題在哪裡我們才能夠去確保我們的法院內的一個安全那再來就是說司法院其實事後已經對外表示未來會依案件性質還有當事人的身心狀況及相關情資強化事前風險評估"},{"start":178.79,"end":195.946,"text":"並演繹更明確的法院安全指引也會考慮動線增派罰金等措施那我想問一下現在的指引進度到哪裡應該我們私刑廳對我們這個我想我們下個禮拜下個禮拜"},{"start":197.407,"end":220.66,"text":"應該就會把指引公告給讓各法院能夠明確的他應該要各個點我想斷點一定要把它做好這個是我們希望下個禮拜能夠把它發佈出去發佈出去但是我想剛剛有講到我們事前風險評估這個機制以前都有但是沒有落實所以接下來這一套你要如何落實呢"},{"start":221.34,"end":229.817,"text":"老實說啦因為公佈我想可能沒有什麼用啦所以落實的方法是什麼其實要落實其實不難"},{"start":231.576,"end":254.422,"text":"第一個一定要告知其實這個SOP都有當事人提出對啦以前也都有嘛對不對所以我現在要問的是說以前也都有現在你的精進措施是什麼嗎我們才能夠確保說這不是只是一份文件嘛而是真的能夠保障我們法院內的人員的安全嘛對不對對所以老師我最簡單的方法"},{"start":255.322,"end":267.087,"text":"你既然前面已經有評估這個訊息一定是送到院長室跟政風室這兩個單位一定就是立刻啟動那有時候就是在這邊有個斷點斷掉"},{"start":270.851,"end":283.838,"text":"那竟然這斷點是什麼意思就是說其實這一件就指到行政廳長那行政廳長他我必須說有時候有些人對於風險的意識度"},{"start":285.979,"end":305.197,"text":"沒有那麼高他交給法警去執行的時候他沒有再度的去check其實這個各法院應該要做到的其實就是他那個緊密度一定要維持住所以我們這個指引一定要每個等於是一節一個環節一個環節一個環節要告訴他們都要落實到"},{"start":309.415,"end":329.054,"text":"我想這個就是回應到我剛剛講的啦我想一個完善的檢討然後還有再簡單一個報告給我們讓我們知道說接下來你如何針對這一些落掉的地方你們如何在這一次的風險評估指引出來之後如何的落實精進那再來還有就是說我也想請教法務部"},{"start":330.035,"end":346.278,"text":"就是說這類的個案的精神評估狀況以及預防性的處置問題像它過去其實已經一再的出現了傷害恐嚇甚至在司法場域有反覆脫序暴力的傾向那其實檢察官在偵查的過程之中就應該不只一次處理過了那而是"},{"start":347.299,"end":375.714,"text":"所以我想是不是應該要整體來評估這個人到底有沒有持續的危險性那如果已經有相當的跡象的顯示的時候呢其實制度上不是完全沒有工具可以使用嘛我們其實是可以申請暫時申請暫行安置或是採取更積極的強制處分理論上都應該要納入評估啦所以終結後來也認定這個被告有這個反覆犯罪之餘並向法院申請羈押而且獲准喔既然最後都能夠認定到這個程序那為什麼案發前呢我們沒有對這類的"},{"start":376.795,"end":397.93,"text":"反覆傷害脫序的個案更早的做完整體性的危險性評估呢跟委員報告因為那個場域是發生在法院的所以我們現在講的就是說類似一個市警的案的提醒啦給到我們的司法院啦這個部分如果相關的那個被告"},{"start":398.45,"end":425.471,"text":"有這樣子的一個記錄那可能有一些風險存在的話那事實上檢察官不管在公訴立庭的時候也都會有跟法院一些相關的聯繫來做提醒那在偵查的部分也都會有一些依照這個他的風險來做這個相關後續的處置作為所以意思聽起來是法務部其實有把應盡該做的事情都做了對不對相關的風險我們都會在所有的案件去做相關的考量"},{"start":426.38,"end":451.911,"text":"好 了解好 謝謝好 那我想還是這個就是司法院的那個精進報告啦聽起來是這樣子謝謝 法務部可以請回了那我繼續回到司法院那我接下來就是要問這個法警的問題那剛剛其實審法會委員也有問一樣的問題就是說我們在法院組織法其實是應該要去明定他的一些職長啦因為他畢竟要有明確的授權他才能夠去做事情那剛剛也有聽到說這個會期會送進來"},{"start":454.232,"end":477.61,"text":"那我想還有另外一個問題就是說因為其實我們在法警他有充分授權但是他能不能去判斷這個時候他可以做那這個部分應該也是要充分的之前訓練他才能夠做到這個判斷他才敢下這樣子的決定去做這件事情可是我們看了一下剛剛講的是人力的問題剛剛審發會委員講的是人力的問題現在我要講的是之前訓練的問題"},{"start":482.915,"end":505.36,"text":"我們現在它的原則上訓練只有1到3週連同食物訓練合計4個月而平時的訓練目前則是至少40小時可是因為他們現在面對的風險狀況其實不是只是秩序維持包含剛剛講的那個突發暴力應變然後疑似精神狀況不穩定的這個情緒失控的個案他們都要處理所以我認為我們的之前訓練的內容跟時間"},{"start":508.701,"end":538.384,"text":"是不是也應該要評估一致的去調整或者是延長呢不曉得女書長的看法是什麼是的從這件事件其實我們早期都過於重非常重視大部分時間其實會花在體力上的訓練比較多還有一些就是法規上的了解對於這個緊急應變這種概念的訓練真的我們是不足我們必須要承認所以這個事件以後也讓我們看到我們一定要讓法警去了解"},{"start":539.104,"end":563.279,"text":"去訓練就說除了這個訓練以外其實我也強定非常的強力要求各法院其實每天都有值錢要跟法警談話其實每天在值錢談話的就說那應該叫名字叫做早上的那個勤務宣導勤務宣導每天早上都有"},{"start":564.318,"end":585.48,"text":"其實那個時候應該就要有做得出來因為我們看了一下過去好像似乎也沒有真的罰警去執行過去你們現在可以授權他們使用的一些工具上面有警棍我不是說警棍而是在那些判斷那些情況下他可以執法我覺得這件事情是罰警他並不清楚"},{"start":586.141,"end":611.897,"text":"所以我認為其實不是職勤務訓練這件事情而是說到底哪些狀況下要非常的明確讓他知道這種情況他是可以做的他可以執行的我覺得這才真正是可以維護我們法庭內的秩序那當然法庭外剛剛其實審判會委員也有提到我認為這也是我們現在缺乏的一塊因為現在出手的現場已經延伸到這個走廊這個通道的地方這個也是"},{"start":613.097,"end":632.837,"text":"請一併放在我剛剛講的這個經濟報告裡面一起提供給我那想要知道大概什麼時候可以提供給我我們在指引發布的時候同時就會寫出但是經濟措施包含對於罰金這些所有的所以就是一個禮拜嗎還是兩個禮拜兩個禮拜兩個禮拜好不好謝謝"},{"start":637.361,"end":656.008,"text":"那最後一題我想要再延伸一下就是這幾天網路上針對柯文哲案的判決結果出現了一些討論那有些人因為不滿判決結果不管是先回到法律程序啦不是談上訴談救濟而是直接把矛頭指向法官檢察官本人甚至喊出要人民直選法官直選檢察官要用"},{"start":656.828,"end":676.23,"text":"選票把這些人淘汰掉那我今天其實我們要討論這個判決的結果我要講的是說在法治國家不服判決的正當程序就是上訴、抗告是循審及就據而不是由群眾的壓力去逼迫司法讓步更不是威脅檢察官、司法官去對他們發起政治動員或是網路霸凌"},{"start":676.61,"end":701.577,"text":"所以我現在要考慮的其實是法官檢察官的人身安全因為現在已經社群上出現了對這個受命的法官許芳瑜的點名已經說記得給這位法官愛的關照這樣子的話其實就已經有非常明顯的一個威嚇的意味所以我認為現在講法院的秩序已經不是只有這個實體空間包含虛擬的空間都應該要一起的來考量"},{"start":702.097,"end":728.158,"text":"因為這樣子的法官被網路上面點名霸凌不是只有他自己包括他的家人可能都有風險那我們看了一下美國有一些針對於高風險的案件上面他們對於法官其實是有一些保護措施那我不曉得說我們現在是不是也可以針對像一些比較高風險的案件把它盤點出來那我們也有一些相對應的保護措施來保護這些法官"},{"start":728.658,"end":747.677,"text":"是的其實我們院內對於法官就個案除了有一個矚目案件的這個列表以外也會主動法官其實沒有說提出來也會主動詢問他需要有哪些保護措施我們甚至會派專員"},{"start":748.818,"end":768.376,"text":"一段時間的可能上下班尤其是我們在公共空間送他上車或者是哪個階段他認為需要被保護我們也會跟警政單位聯繫這個我們一定要盡到最大的保護所以謝謝委員"},{"start":769.537,"end":794.994,"text":"了解 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這一次的戰爭會打多久我們看起來就講不定 那如果我們一樣又是用補貼 又是用這個減增貨物稅 又是用調價可是我今天告訴你的就是說 我今天我的蛋回物價的一個波動不是跟酒油一樣 酒油是馬上去的"},{"start":244.213,"end":260.812,"text":"我這是要半年後才會去啊所以一個平穩物價的一個措施不是現在才開始啊那怎麼辦呢你要告訴我就是說這可能這個淡回的一個那個波動他可能是半年後"},{"start":261.753,"end":277.875,"text":"是,不過委員我也很誠實的告訴你跟您報告啦,事實上我總覺得這個是農業部必須要來處理這個事情說實在的,我在這方面,農業方面我不是專家"},{"start":278.556,"end":293.532,"text":"所以我也沒辦法來跟委員報告就是說這個蛋肥這個上漲了以後我們怎麼樣來處理讓你的後面的這個後面的這個物價可是央行不是要對於全面的中東戰爭受到的一個物價的影響也必須要是全方位的嗎我們所謂的全面的是"},{"start":299.83,"end":322.265,"text":"就總體的物價來看的我們不是對每一項每一項每一項來看的如果說每一項每一項都來看的話那總理黨的這個物價我們的利息要來上升調整的時候我們就沒有依準以你的經驗你一定會告訴我說這個我也不知道你認為這個中東的一個戰事會打多久"},{"start":324.211,"end":338.11,"text":"然後從數一四那個經驗裡頭就是過去我們長榮有一台船卡在這個數一四運河結果這個船隻卡住了結果物流延誤了一段很長的時間"},{"start":339.392,"end":366.818,"text":"那它也造成了這個也是在後面那也在半年以後才造成這個供應鏈的斷面然後全球的通膨那現在一樣就是橫浦之海峽它把它鎖定了然後就是說你不准走那不准走的時候油價就是上漲了況且好再請教一下總裁你現在認為一桶原油到未來不要說很空的一百億你覺得一桶的多少錢"},{"start":369.69,"end":389.884,"text":"你說什麼我說你的原油價錢一桶會多少錢一個禮拜以後你不要回答我說你的戰爭戰爭會那個打多久這個你不知道這個委員我不是一個預測專家所以我就說你不是一個預測專家可是起碼你要有這種能量你也可以算命"},{"start":395.527,"end":398.848,"text":"這個就考倒我了我們只能就說情境的分析我們只能就說我從58.3塊錢那時候當時我們就說一年這一年58.3塊錢"},{"start":420.174,"end":422.535,"text":"現在一個禮拜以後我的原油一桶會多少錢你的情境中不 我們是說這一年呢那你也講不準我們是85塊啊"},{"start":437.161,"end":450.805,"text":"從58.3%增加到85%那我們的85%不是說某一個時點的85%是全年的平均那近期呢近期的話大概我如果說我們現在來看的話近期應該是90到110"},{"start":454.446,"end":474.321,"text":"近期是90到110你的近期會是一個禮拜還是兩個禮拜我再想到3月底到4月中以前3月底到4月中我在3月底到4月中90應該不會那麼低應該是至少95到115左右"},{"start":479.485,"end":483.51,"text":"95到115這個短時間是可以這樣但是長期的話我覺得長期是應該不會那麼長應該不會那麼高因為如果說他在短暫之間在比較短的時間結束的話後面那邊油價應該是會下來的"},{"start":498.237,"end":523.331,"text":"好那我想從你的報告裡頭你還是特別在提到了你在安撫大家這個疫情就是會通膨那你告訴大家說其實你的疫情通膨是溫和的因為政府採取了很多的評價那個評估那個物價的一個措施不管是補稅還是那個就是調降還是補貼"},{"start":526.076,"end":538.32,"text":"總裁已經這麼久了我們老是用這幾招有沒有想到你那個國安基金是來平價股市那有沒有辦法就是用一個主權基金來穩定你的物價呢"},{"start":544.422,"end":565.696,"text":"一個基金一個基金他有他特定的目的那你的特定的目的你一個基金他要提供那麼多的目的的話要辦理那麼多的功能的話不大事物價穩定基金我們現在面對的未來最多的地緣政治風險"},{"start":572.28,"end":594.787,"text":"我們是應該要提早準備的你的看法是怎麼樣委員這個概念我覺得好像也很合理啦譬如說你剛剛講到國安基金國安基金就是穩定股市嘛那以前你提了這個概念事實上以前我們都有物價穩定基金啦"},{"start":595.627,"end":619.384,"text":"平穩基金它叫做平穩基金那這個地緣政治的一個風險是我們必須要去面對嗎是那個平穩基金啊但是呢對啦這個平穩基金我覺得這個概念是以前沒有討論看看啦研究看看啦是是是不要講說這個跟你沒有關係這個絕對跟你有關係你是總裁耶你們進來的都是叫董事長而已耶是是是是謝謝賴委員"},{"start":623.727,"end":625.789,"text":"下一位諮詢委員請李坤澄委員諮詢"}]}},{"id":"168022","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168022","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d0265d86f2f18c6719ac91e13cc79b6b7f5bc5cff238b3beb7080941cab810cc716be6cd68217e7c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃建賓","委員發言時間":"10:54:14 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主席我們有請部長好 有請部長是 方偉部長早安 部長這樣國家的財政就像家庭財務一樣我們支出增加就會面對資源要重新分配的這個問題當某一項的支出快速的成長那其他的支出勢必就會受到影響"},{"start":28.815,"end":51.375,"text":"那這幾年其實我國的國防預算大幅的增加那2026年接近9500億已經超過GDP的3%我們的賴總統也明確的宣示說未來我們要達到GDP5%的目標那如果未來要達到賴總統承諾的這個5%的GDP的這個目標行政院是不是有給我們國防部穩定的裁員保證穩定的裁員保證"},{"start":52.792,"end":61.032,"text":"跟委員報告,我先說明一下以115年度為例,國安部本身的年度預算是五六一四"},{"start":62.128,"end":90.57,"text":"五六一四,那您剛剛講的九千多億應該就是說我們參照北約的這個不,不,就是說未來我們要達到GDP五百來講啦有沒有穩定的財源給我們我們總統宣示嘛,未來我們的GDP要占五百嘛我只是先說明一下我剛剛講的,就是說年度預算是五六一四嘛那當然還有一些其他基金預算等等那因為我們用NATO來算,所以還有這個海巡署的,還有退伍會的"},{"start":91.491,"end":107.445,"text":"那這個先說明一下那第二個當然我們在報告裡面也說明了我們未來三年所一個付款高峰期的持續案的部分大概要有五千七百億的一個預算的需求那另外還有新增案如果我們沒有"},{"start":107.845,"end":121.444,"text":"將特別預算擺進來的話大概新政案有700多億的這個案項還要獲得滿足所以我們才會提出8年的新興急迫需求一照2500億的特別預算"},{"start":122.125,"end":144.782,"text":"那我的意思是說如果在有沒有穩定的財源的保證如果在沒有穩定財源的情況之下這筆錢要從哪裡來如果按照我們現在我們國房預算的增加速度遠遠高於我們的年度的稅入嘛那如果在未來不加稅然後不去排擠其他預算情況下看來好像也只有常態性的舉債這個部分嘛那"},{"start":146.181,"end":155.468,"text":"這個我們要擔心的就是說難道我們因為要這些讓像下一代去備債嗎這件事我要問更具體的問題就是說目前公共預算的這個大幅的成長除了"},{"start":157.472,"end":184.344,"text":"年度的預算除了一部分來自舉債以外特別預算大概都是用在這個採購大量的新式武器那新式武器買了之後我們養不養得起這是我的重點那我們未來面對交付的這個高峰期新式裝備陸續的服役本行要請教說未來這些新式武器的作業維持費包括你的維修養護跟訓練經費總體規模的推估是多少那是不是有納入長期的財政規劃"},{"start":186.905,"end":191.128,"text":"市長 委員報告這個都在我們的規劃範圍之內那詳細的部分要看這個相關的武器裝備"},{"start":195.766,"end":222.959,"text":"我們這個區分兩個部分來講我們作為費的部分針對未來五年所需要的那個額度就是新的武器裝備的這個部分會納到我們在建案作業階段的時候就會把它納入那另外一個部分是我們還要配合舊式武器裝備的汰除會兩個一起並同考量然後去衡量這些新式武器裝備未來的預算需求然後做一個年度的一個編列"},{"start":224.195,"end":240.035,"text":"所以我們有做這樣的規劃?對有啊現在就是這樣做那如果說我們現在維持我們現在是成本會持續的增加對不對那會不會未來會排擠到我們國防部內部的自己的軍事投資跟人員維持的預算阿梅"},{"start":242.288,"end":269.902,"text":"委員的意思是說我們的軍頭的預算帶動了作業維持費的增加那我剛剛已經講過了就是說他在軍頭建案的時候他至少要一開始的時候他就會把兩年的備份料件都會納入進去那之後還要再看這個武器裝備的性質我們會納入全受理的管理來了解這樣的全受理管理之下他的這個維持費會占到多少那不同的武器裝備會有不同"},{"start":270.182,"end":289.51,"text":"所以這個本來就要做長年期的規劃所以部長未來是不會影響到嗎那另外還有一個舊裝備還要汰除啊所以這個不斷的是在一個滾動的一個修正當中啊那沒有說我們去籌購一個新的裝備就會使作業維持會一定會"},{"start":290.49,"end":301.415,"text":"一定會或一定不會我們本來就要做一個整體的規劃嘛那本是意思說我們買了新的裝備之後未來它養護費會增加嘛新裝備不一定它的維持會比舊裝備高啊譬如說你現在新的裝備你M1 A2進來"},{"start":308.291,"end":320.852,"text":"那跟你維持一個CM11的作業的維持費這個屬於我們要汰除的部分哪一個維持費會高所以本身問題是會不會影響到會不會這樣所以以後勤來講"},{"start":323.376,"end":349.797,"text":"委員好我是侯思思次長向委員報告我們舉CM111例子他進入中售期之後他的維持費比在前售期的時候double所以新的裝備包含我們的備份零附件包含回來之後依照寄令我們去準備的後續的維修料件未必會比老裝備更耗錢這是第一點第二個很多事情都是要推陳出新嘛是我們把新的裝備買進來之後更符合我的作戰需求"},{"start":350.097,"end":377.05,"text":"我老裝備不符合專案需求或是裝備老舊耗更多的作為費我就必須要貸出這中間一定會有一個這個要平衡您問說會不會一定比新裝備買回來之後你要多花錢或是說一定會影響到這沒有辦法做保證因為所有的裝備我們現在還沒有通通都獲得那在獲得之後一定的額度之內我們必須要貸出老裝備把錢投入在新裝備的維護上好"},{"start":379.98,"end":406.777,"text":"因為本協會這樣問就是說我們會好奇說我們買了新的裝備勢必你日後的維護費會增加那我們現在是用特別預算採購對不對 採購新的裝備那這些裝備日後他是不是還有他的維護費要用那是不是變在一般的預算裡面所以嘛 是不是那我要問的是說這些會不會增加那你增加之後你會不會影響到你原本你國防部內部的這些你的規劃 你的人事費 你的作業費跟你的投資會不會影響到其實主要是問這一塊"},{"start":408.218,"end":429.109,"text":"所以這個部分是要了解到,我們的影響就是這樣但是委員的意思好像先提會有一個命定就是說一個命定的一個假設說現狀要進來,然後維持會不會增加然後會大幅的增加,這一個講法我想是不對的"},{"start":430.382,"end":446.356,"text":"這個講法是不對的部長我們想要了解到就是說我們都支持要買新的武器新的裝備符合我們未來的國防的趨勢來保護這個國家安全但是我們也不希望說買這些東西之後你未來都沒有編列相關的維護費用的時候我們會造成這種情況我們就一直在講我們會編列"},{"start":450.619,"end":463.931,"text":"我們這邊有未來10年這個維持那個作業維持費的這個推國服務我們全受期我們在做這個分析的時候都會將全受期的這些維護都全部都要放進來所以這些在做我們的作業文件裡面就有一項是專門在做這個的"},{"start":465.572,"end":493.118,"text":"因為本系統的報告裡面並沒有看到所以要了解說我們到底有沒有做些東西如果沒有的話我們擔心的是什麼我想我們可以下去以後跟委員詳細的就每一個建案的文件包括從作戰需求系統以及騎乘工項到整體的獲得規劃的每一個項目跟委員做一個報告部長本席想要了解就是說我們擔心的是我們有錢買新的武器我們會不會養不起新武器就像你有能力去買超跑可是你沒有錢去換輪姿"},{"start":494.218,"end":505.035,"text":"作為環防部長我最擔心的是養一切維修費用很高但是沒有任何作戰能力的所以重點是在他能不能發揮我們整體的作戰"},{"start":506.597,"end":520.287,"text":"需求的能力啦會問這個問題就是說我們在擴張軍備的同時其實我們還是要考慮到後期的規劃成本我們就是有規劃所以包括人力和資源的部分我們會很願意來跟委員做一個充分的溝通謝謝部長的說明 謝謝"},{"start":528.472,"end":557.134,"text":"那部長其實大家其實擔心的是這樣身為民意代表最重要因為專業是國防的部分但民意代表我們身為立法委員我們主要是監督整個財政的狀況這也是為什麼大家在討論這件事情我們擔心的是不只是日後兩會還有包括我們的財政會不會受到衝擊這是我們在考慮的那好 那我們也時間也差不多了我再問一下另外一個問題就是說在今年1月1號發生台中外F16的這個失事的事件"},{"start":558.345,"end":576.08,"text":"我們有軍事雜誌在推斷說是不是跟我們奉產計畫沒有變更老舊的線數有關導致整個戰機飛行的先老化影響我們電路的系統那不曉得我們現在已經撈到這個黑盒子了吧對不對是那現在我們整個交召美方關係的進度是怎麼樣"},{"start":577.942,"end":598.723,"text":"報告委員一般這個黑盒子的判讀大概是需要30天左右但是還是要看黑盒子裡面的狀況因為要看他的資料完整性跟他的這個裡面資料存儲有沒有受到破壞所以說30天這個是至少要30天目前掌握的狀況是這樣那我們也在撈到之後隔天就直接送到美國"},{"start":599.315,"end":623.868,"text":"如果說真的像這個雜誌寫的未來這個查到這是跟線路老化有關的話我們國防部是不是有啟動全機隊的這個的特檢跟改善的計畫有嗎報告委員這個已經在112年全數完成我們原本的block兩棟的提升它包含所有限速的更新這個都已經做完了好 謝謝是謝謝主席 謝謝部長 以上"}]}},{"id":"168021","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168021","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d0265d86f2f18c67f32b41c34546112e117671a01da40a13b7080941cab810cce391b23e5ee14c115ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許宇甄","委員發言時間":"10:48:28 - 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我們請司法院高金正秘書長以及我們的檢察司張司長好 請秘書長跟張司長"},{"start":24.901,"end":53.162,"text":"MU長還有市長好我想今天我們排這個專報專題報告最主要就是針對在台中地議院所發生的這個律師被這個女子這個國長的這個事件那當然這個部分我在剛剛在你們的報告裡面你們有提到說其實你們有做了一些教育訓練包括你在7月起就有事前預警高風險通報還有警力盤點跟教育訓練"},{"start":54.443,"end":67.51,"text":"但是同時間你們也自己檢討說事實上是因為自己法源不足執法遲疑還有因為警力不足的關係所以還有法官的訴訟只會過於保守"},{"start":69.631,"end":82.241,"text":"但是呢同樣的這個法務部對於高風險案件的分流退庭跟安全陪同還有這個機關的區內現行暴力的處置其實寫得很詳細就是刑事訴訟法第88條的現行犯的規定法警的"},{"start":85.703,"end":104.652,"text":"依法逮捕那所以我想請教一下秘書長針對這個刑事訴訟法第88條是問何人都可以進行逮捕所以說當時為什麼我們在這個司法院的在台中地院的這個法警卻沒有用這樣的方式而是用隔離的方式呢"},{"start":104.912,"end":128.462,"text":"這個我剛剛有一次報告,其實真的是我們這位法警真的是遲疑了他自己對於這個,其實我必須跟委員報告有時候法警他們很害怕說,我一個強制的行為是不是造成更大的騷擾只要這個念頭在他腦子裡面,他就沒有勇敢的去,不能說勇敢"},{"start":129.102,"end":150.976,"text":"沒有很盡職的去達成現刑犯是任何人可以進行逮捕的這個法治觀念不過這個已經不是言語囉這直接有行動了這個應該對應該是現刑犯的這個標準應該就已經是已經落實那為什麼對這法警做這樣的表示說可能平常的教育訓練"},{"start":154.018,"end":167.365,"text":"對,我必須承認,可能我們對於他,應該什麼時候,不能講什麼時候,你應該把這種現行犯,應該要進行逮捕的這種,要把它變成一個DNA,因為你這樣才有辦法維持"},{"start":167.705,"end":192.337,"text":"那請問一下你剛剛有提到說是因為法警遲疑他認為可能造成更大的騷擾那請問一下那當法警做這樣遲疑的時候他有沒有可以譬如說請示上級機關或是請示法官或是相關的人員可以請示有有有其實可以的這一件事件我必須講真的是整個都法警都遲疑其實他們後面還有四個法警真的還有四個法警"},{"start":192.557,"end":211.434,"text":"所以總共有五個罰警結果都沒有人認為應該要當庭逮捕所以我們要深自檢討所以表示說我覺得這個相關的啦就針對這個部分的教育訓練因為其實我們剛剛我想秘書長都一直有提到現在的罰警是人力不足可是依當天的這個案件好像也不是人力不足的問題"},{"start":212.555,"end":230.807,"text":"只要這樣講一個女子在現場然後有五個法警在現場所以絕對不會是人力不足的問題所以這個可能我覺得是我們的教育訓練出了很大的問題那尤其是剛剛講到說這個要積極修正這個法院組織法因為覺得法源不是那麼的明確"},{"start":232.108,"end":246.856,"text":"那請問一下到底是哪裡你覺得法源不夠明確呢其實像關於現行犯這根本不用法處法的法源重點就是說法警你在維護法院秩序的時候我可能要檢查"},{"start":248.636,"end":272.742,"text":"像我們其實我們現在進門的檢查那個法源是稍微有點灰色地帶還有在法庭裡面我要禁止行為如果那個審判長他是忙著他的開庭而沒有注意到旁邊沒有指示法警是不能動的可是有些事情光在法庭裡面其實可以事先制止"},{"start":273.582,"end":293.591,"text":"罰警沒辦法那再罰這個當然秘書長我想你們有相關的SOP但是以這一次的案件來說顯然是都沒有落實所以這也就是招委為什麼今天會排這個專報所以這個部分的話我想秘書長可能要回去要好好的來去研究相關的我們的教育訓練的如何落實"},{"start":295.012,"end":299.593,"text":"未來真正在面臨這樣的狀況的時候我們要怎麼樣去做因為其實有法源但是我覺得是在怎麼判斷方面出了問題所以邀請秘書長針對這個部分因為這邊台中地院就是所謂的首要任務迅速隔離"},{"start":311.477,"end":333.064,"text":"就是事實上他既然都隔離了那為什麼不能做現情況的逮捕那還是說司法院其實是法警是不能這樣子有要求法警不能做這樣的作為嗎絕對沒有絕對沒有絕對沒有嘛不過因為這次這個行為事實上是沒有落實事實上是蠻離譜的啦所以說大家會有這樣的一個狀況那"},{"start":336.286,"end":347.121,"text":"剛剛您也提到就是說人力不足的問題那請問司法院這邊有沒有針對人力不足的問題有提出什麼樣子的一個具體方案如何解決當然除了"},{"start":348.976,"end":376.553,"text":"這個願意讓我們增援是最好在沒有增援之前我們會把法警的職務有強度比較高的一定是在法警身上強度比較弱的單純的維持一條線的秩序我們就會放在保全來協助就分散一下法警的工作量可是我必須報告還是不夠因為我們民庭"},{"start":378.666,"end":398.053,"text":"就是沒有法庭所以說具體的我想這個人力要怎麼改善的方案也雙元村你們有個具體的報告然後送到立法院送到我們司法法治委員會讓我們能夠了解那剛剛昭偉也特別提到的就是針對這部分我們也會非常的支持只要是有必要但重點是"},{"start":399.574,"end":425.149,"text":"法警如何訓練讓他們真正能夠執行他們的勤務我覺得那個才是重點人力就像當天有五個警力在那五個法警在那邊可是卻沒有辦法執行這樣的行為所以說未來請問一下如果再有這樣的狀況發生的話那他們是可以這個還是一樣其實要迅速隔離還是可以依法控制現場代理人員然後移交警方呢"},{"start":426.055,"end":448.617,"text":"如果是現行犯本來就是可以當場代表送行方本來就可以了我覺得這個部分可能就是麻煩要具體的落實那當然我這邊還想請教張司長一些問題就是針對我們這個經貿辦的顏富新副總談判代表的這個英言早逝那他因為有一個請辭他的請辭書裡面有很清楚的寫到"},{"start":449.338,"end":477.584,"text":"他對CPTPP推動消極敷衍缺乏具體的計畫跟時程深感憂慮他多次的提出建言卻沒有被採納甚至提出遭到嚴厲的駁斥那針對這個部分其實現在大家一些媒體都指出應該是有這個相關的霸凌的事情產生那請問這個部分就是檢察官可不可以因為就是我們知道有相關的情勢可以主動這個展開調查"},{"start":479.126,"end":479.147,"text":"那"},{"start":480.479,"end":509.338,"text":"跟委員報告那檢察官是只有犯罪嫌疑才會來做主動的偵查那一般的這個霸凌的情形到底是什麼樣程度那通常在機關內會先做一個霸凌是否有霸凌事件的一個調查之後那如果其中有涉及到犯罪嫌疑的話機關就會向檢察機關因為其實我看你們之前有很多的案件其實都是看媒體有介入之後你們就主動介入偵辦嗎因為這是符合這個只有其他情勢有犯罪嫌疑者嗎"},{"start":509.838,"end":529.708,"text":"所以就是說還是要看那個他媒體不管是媒體或者是說相關的人員他所揭露的一些霸凌的行為是不是已經達到有犯罪嫌疑的一個程度那才會有檢查機關來做一個偵辦那所以如果有這樣犯罪嫌疑程度你們就會積極的這個介入偵辦如果有犯罪嫌疑的話"},{"start":530.228,"end":552.192,"text":"那目前的話因為現在這個案子還在調查當中嘛所以說我們也可以看到他也提到就是說他多次的建言遭到這個嚴厲的駁斥所以說如果主管沒有知道問題存在卻長期不處理是不是已經這個涉及公務員這個廢持職務代乎職守的犯罪嫌疑呢那這個部分檢察官是不是要查"},{"start":553.455,"end":579.358,"text":"公務員廢食植物的罪責其實是相當重的那跟霸凌之間的一個關係這個可能還是要看具體的個案來做一個判斷那這個案子就是說這個部分是不是有到達廢食植物的情形可能也是要先因為以這個案子的話就是說我們可以看到就是說這個我們顏慧欣當然現在我們有很多的資訊出來啦就是"},{"start":579.798,"end":601.129,"text":"他其實也針對這個部分他其實在身心各方面其實都已經受到很大的一個煎熬所以他才會提出辭呈那裡面也都特別講出可是我們可以看到他提出辭呈的前一個月喔那還是呢這個就是這個我們的經貿辦呢還是要讓他獨立去面對所有立委的質詢所以這個針對這個"},{"start":603.55,"end":621.446,"text":"大齡的疑雲那是不是有可能導致他最後離世是因為這樣的原因那所以這個部分我們還是希望說這個我們的這個檢查機關還是要針對這個部分能夠主動的調查不要等到說到最後就是官官相護到最後就不了了之"},{"start":622.831,"end":640.781,"text":"跟委員報告因為本案依照這個媒體所揭露的大概已經在進行內部的行政調查那如果相關的調查結果出來假設裡面有犯罪嫌疑的話檢察官也會來助理我們希望這樣的事情不要再發生在我們的所有的官員身上謝謝好 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王老爺部長跟國安部各位同仁大家辛苦我請教一個問題就是說昨天晚上的媒體好消息82套的海馬士發價書在3月30號到期他同意展延到他跟承包商簽約的時候嘛我看到訊息是這樣子這個展延期到底多長"},{"start":37.731,"end":47.959,"text":"就我們只能推估對大概多長因為如果展延的過程當中我們在委員會在立法院條例冷凍期還有一個月"},{"start":49.025,"end":75.396,"text":"冷凍期完了通過之後縱使通過之後邊預算還要回到委員會審查這個延長到底有沒有效果目前我們預估是目前美方表達大概是在五月底到六月初附近會完成意願因為以往正常的做法是我們發價書到時間到之前45天30天內簽約嘛付頭期款嘛美國因為這是軍售美國就會去跟他的承包商簽約嘛"},{"start":76.576,"end":96.809,"text":"那簽完約就委制開始生產後面是按批次喔所以上次我們講年底如果這一批錯過的話移到年底那個是簽約移到年底可是我們的批次量移到後面去就非優先那個交貨期程會大幅的往後拖啦這對戰力的構成是不利的所以我現在要跟你確定這個事情就是"},{"start":97.549,"end":125.745,"text":"美方在最後一刻同意展現到他跟他的承包商簽約這個是破例還是常態都可以這麼做這是破例我們引用的是他的那個6.2.1的emergency case 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等於是簽約款嘛那付簽約款海馬斯會有遇到的問題其他的品項應該也會遇到那些問題怎麼解決"},{"start":247.745,"end":267.604,"text":"那個簽署的這個部分因為已經進入程序所以美方他已經把簽署的這一段的作業已經完成那接下來就支付首期款的這個部分原則上我們在這個週末協調當中也針對另外三個案子去做討論美方的回應是"},{"start":268.345,"end":283.563,"text":"他們會再確定這三個案的契約時間然後再來跟我們討論後面我們首席款支付延後的時間點會落在什麼時候所以目前已知的四項"},{"start":284.844,"end":303.809,"text":"放在特別預算的至少首期款要籌措25億台幣那我印象去年底川普通過的那幾項軍售案有的不是放在特別預算耶當然有的政黨把它寫錯了有的放在年度預算可是我們年度預算到今天都還沒有審那個有沒有影響那個部分跟委員報告"},{"start":306.23,"end":320.606,"text":"H1W跟魚叉飛彈的那個定件保修的那個部分它是從114年開始的案所以這兩個案子它是所以科目在了對 他們前面其實已經就年度一戰以後因為H1W影響到我們我們飛訊部歸人的這些飛官"},{"start":325.151,"end":339.68,"text":"你大量汰除將來要再這是人才的浪費嘛所以讓他研議讓人才可以留下一個飛行員培養是不容易的所以那一塊沒有問題那我請教部長當然現在在野黨的態度特別國民黨的態度是有發酵素我就給啊"},{"start":341.104,"end":357.475,"text":"有沒有可預期的我覺得我們在國會裡面先面對困難那也讓在野黨的朋友了解如果有有沒有可預期的新的軍售案發價書在近期會發生以免以免我們在那邊討論半天協調半天冷凍期一個月"},{"start":358.075,"end":381.446,"text":"一過那邊又多新的發價書了我們剛過的東西又不夠用了你懂我意思嗎因為現在看起來在野黨要的那個條文第八條是沒有在這個預算給你一個上限匡列他要你重啟特別條例另外再送個法案可是這樣子坦白講我們認為那根本就不是特別預算也不是好的做法那在近期內有沒有可能有新的發價書就是新的均收案"},{"start":382.347,"end":395.187,"text":"12月19那個時候是會國會的有五個案項是預計要擺入特別預算的嘛那其中一個還沒有發現的時候還沒有到就是Artis 700M跟Artis 600ISR這兩個"},{"start":396.492,"end":406.655,"text":"這是一個案那這個的發價書應該也是近期可能會拿到所以可預計的RTS是700跟那一個夾艙它是700公斤那600是ISR這兩個是一個案所以這個案子"},{"start":415.057,"end":435.343,"text":"已經送交國會了 巴加蘇還沒送交國會智慧國會已經完成了預期他應該是很快 其實智慧國會一般就應該要開始作業了否則真的會來不及那還有沒有其他可預期的案 包含媒體揭露的我想這個可能沒辦法在這裡做公開的說明那我接下來請教"},{"start":437.03,"end":455.916,"text":"我們今天樂見看到國民黨的台中市長盧秀燕盧市長她表態支持一兆到八千億的特別條例而且認為不應該等發架書這個講的就內行話了等發架書那個作業來不及那個流程應該要按照這幾十年來建立下來的制度來處理"},{"start":457.659,"end":481.415,"text":"那當然這到底是宣誓有沒有行動我們就看看國民黨的要角盧秀燕盧市長他能影響到的國民黨委員中部的國民黨委員願不願意支持國家的安全支持國家的國防從宣誓到行動那我要請教部長齁你有沒有打個電話給他沒有感謝一下嗎 沒有沒有"},{"start":483.432,"end":512.481,"text":"我想我們還是來大院裡面做報告這裡是你們的本務啦這裡國會需要聯繫要怎麼樣我建議行政部門未必有國防部我建議行政部門其實大家對國家安全的想像是一致的這是最好的我們政黨有很多不同政黨可以有很多競爭但是攸關國家安全攸關國軍要使用的武器裝備我覺得這沒有什麼黨派之分有一致的想法"},{"start":513.717,"end":535.839,"text":"我們就可以以正面的肯定當然一兆還是離我們1.25兆那個是詳實的計畫有點落差這可以溝通但我建議就是透過這些意見領袖的表態化為行動也許我們在國會裡面討論這個案子可以慢慢收容減少一些政黨上的不管是意氣用事或惡鬥所以有關這一個"},{"start":537.601,"end":554.947,"text":"盧秀燕盧市長他對軍購表態我個人建議國防部或者行政院適度的適度的我覺得這是一個正向的發展雖然金額還是有落差但是總是往前又走了一點點部長你覺得怎麼樣我想因為我們"},{"start":556.877,"end":583.995,"text":"就這個特別預算要面對的就是大院嘛我想我們會跟所有草野各界來做溝通不過我們想我們主要會來進行溝通就大眾還有像各位委員那我想跟盧市長之間的部分我如果要或者不要這個部分我想我們再跟我印象你有跟他同事過我們第九屆的時候他是立委嘛你也是立委嘛"},{"start":584.455,"end":610.15,"text":"是 我在金管會他在財政委員會所以應該是有認識的當然為了國家大義我覺得我們就盡最大的努力不過特別預算特別條例是經過不管是我們國防部內部詳實的會議跟盟友之間的討論它是一個非常紮實科學準備的過程才有這1.25兆裡面不管是對外採購"},{"start":611.291,"end":629.91,"text":"台美建立在台灣的供應鏈或者是不對稱戰力或者整合我們的防空體系形成T-DOM這是一個完整的使用的用途所以除了金額以外8年期 它是8年1.25兆8年期的這個特別預算在使用用途上不能去"},{"start":630.931,"end":650.462,"text":"把台灣自己內部要建立供應鏈啊或者相關的不對稱戰力的誘因等等把它拿掉這是有點可惜所以我建議國防部在溝通的時候除了金額以外其實用途也很重要我昨天還是前天看到古立言他直接講不是只有對美軍購喔在台灣建立這一個供應鏈等不對稱戰力"},{"start":652.043,"end":675.498,"text":"非常重要所以這盟友也這樣提了所以部長我建議多方溝通立法院有時候直走有牆壁有時候繞著走會有樓梯所以我覺得這個為了國家大義要一起來努力真件兵工產線還有無人機的產制落地化然後形成國防任性這確實是非常"},{"start":676.178,"end":687.029,"text":"非常重要 那很重要 那個金額也許佔比沒那麼大 但是其實對台灣的防衛眾生 軍備 軍需的眾生很重要我最後建議一件事情 有關扣除額的事情"},{"start":688.683,"end":717.602,"text":"我現在還有其他但來不及了我建議好請夜館參謀存餐然後看怎麼回覆我就是說我們現在後備軍人我們2.3就是230萬的後備軍人那參加教召我們現在14天的教召越來越紮實這是好事那演訓漢光演習有編了一個是一個後備軍人的後備旅這都是好的方向那我建議多一個配套誘因像美國國民兵後備部隊"},{"start":719.263,"end":745.073,"text":"參加離開家鄉160公里以上的他除了可以扣差旅費以外呢他可以有一些所得稅的扣除額也就是說當會當後備軍人的一定是年輕力壯年齡在就業範圍內所以當他來投入14天的教召或者漢光演習的時候呢對於他一些所得可以不記錄科稅所得"},{"start":745.632,"end":767.691,"text":"或者呢列一些扣除額這其實不僅是一個鼓勵這其實是一個尊崇就是你作為一個軍人哪怕你是後備軍人國家願意向你致敬雖然扣除額也許不會很多額不會相當高但是這一個會讓我作為一個後備軍人我現在14天叫招我這些報的錢不用報稅然後另外呢我在"},{"start":768.371,"end":793.242,"text":"公司裡面一些所得呢還可以有抵扣額甚至於雇主也可以有抵扣額這個除了增加誘因以外是給軍人一個尊重這個我給部長跟我們夜餐這些參謀大家做參考那我們一起來努力這個方向這可能需要跟財政部做財政部管錢管很緊啦但我覺得這個是一個可以推動方向而且美軍有美國有這樣的情形好不好那以上給國防部做參考 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168014","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168014","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d0265d86f2f18c67c615a72273b7e8137f5bc5cff238b3be97994c33887c7127789215d5dfcb6ad05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"10:18:07 - 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要稍微了解一下就是不知道為什麼這一個盧秀燕市長有這樣那麼大的一個轉變因為畢竟從去年這個條例就已經被提出了"},{"start":80.473,"end":105.84,"text":"那這個條例從去年提出到現在過了很長一段時間他們一開始的講法是一毛都不要給然後後來講說可能可以三四千然後現在後來又一陣子說可以到八千那今天說可以到一兆我覺得他到底坐哪一個班機那個班機上面放什麼電影是不是可以稍微了解一下不然的話就為什麼坐一趟飛機人可以做那麼大的一個改變我覺得這是一個很奇異的事情"},{"start":106.42,"end":130.837,"text":"當然我們期待這樣的事情發生我們也期待他跟國民黨的黨團跟傅坤祺或者說跟他們的主席來好好討論這件事情不然這個延宕其實對我們來講會是一個很大的問題接下來因為今天的題目雖然是在講整個預算的平衡但我相信在上個禮拜協商禮拜三禮拜四的過程當中已經討論很多所以我幾個小的問題我想先問一下"},{"start":131.557,"end":145.885,"text":"第一個就是去年年底的時候去年年底的時候呢這個有兩千艘中國的漁船集結成這個倒L型的一個隊伍那這個這邊有一個很簡單的一個影片他有去秀出來說他的異常的狀況那可能幫我按一下"},{"start":152.884,"end":169.72,"text":"這些是漁船,漁船在移動的方式應該是屬於比較凌亂我們可以看到漁船慢慢形成這個道L形形成的過程對任何有在關心海事的事情都會認為這是一個異常的現象"},{"start":173.564,"end":197.119,"text":"我們看到就是說它的縱深大概是200英里的一個長方形而且長達大概30個小時所以這是一個軍事有這絕對是帶有一個軍事色彩的一個漁船線條的一個操演那我相信海巡有一定程度的對應那我想問一下國防部現在對這樣的一個事情這樣已經過了一段時間了嘛那目前的對應是什麼我們的分析是什麼我想這個活動的海域主要是位於"},{"start":203.919,"end":222.067,"text":"我們可以看到是中日間敏感的海域這個行為當然看起來是有高度的組織化因為我們都知道中共有運用海上民兵就是用漁船來作為海上民兵所以他的這個企圖"},{"start":224.432,"end":247.058,"text":"是不是在演練對特定海域的控制能力這是我值得我們關注那我們當然更值得關注的是應該是在台海周邊的部分那有沒有會運用相關的相同的這個模式在我們的台海周邊進行一個大規模的集結這個部分是我們要注意的所以我們會運用我們的相關的"},{"start":248.024,"end":273.112,"text":"所有的這個勤奸症的這個系統來全程掌握這個動態那來瞭解他是一個灰色地帶的洗澡還是他有準備要做再做進一步的後續這個部分的徵喉是我們要密切關注的對 因為他這個當然會不會出現在這個西南方我們還不知道"},{"start":273.592,"end":289.818,"text":"因為就最近嘛就三月初的時候呢那其實在這邊往更偏東的位置也有發生過一樣的事情那我覺得這是一個值得密切關注啦那國防部不一定要把這個到底我們是怎麼分析啦我們認為應該怎麼做全盤的透露但總之這是一個值得注意的現象"},{"start":290.918,"end":316.164,"text":"另外我想問一下全棟鼠因為我看到波蘭現在有一個全民自願國防訓練計畫這個計畫裡面它就講到說有急救、應對的機制什麼之類的畢竟波蘭現在跟我們面臨到的威脅非常類似它就做了兩個它自己取的名字一個叫任性之路一個叫後備之路"},{"start":316.784,"end":328.156,"text":"我相信後備這個部分大概台灣有做跟他雷同的事情太多了而且我們的兵役的制度跟他不太相同所以但他有一個叫韌性之路這個韌性之路他裡面就特別提到說比如說要增強這個社會的韌性這個有幾門課可以選擇然後這個團體的訓練然後要怎麼去搭配新的專案的要求"},{"start":340.768,"end":359.295,"text":"我稍微整理了一下就是呢它有安全的課程有急救的課程有生存的課程有資安的課程那因為在台灣這一個部分有一些是衛福部在做有一些是內政部在做但畢竟我們這邊有一個權動署算是一個有點像是指揮協調整個的單位那我相信"},{"start":359.855,"end":382.906,"text":"可能因為波蘭這個計畫很新我看波蘭最近的國防預算也是一直增加他已經要到4%了然後他2026年4月然後最近才開始這一系列的課程所以他到底效益如何這個也是我們可以去評估那目前來講我們因為民間有很多這個我以前在民間我最熟民間有很多這種課程但是我的期待一直都是這不應該是民間"},{"start":384.988,"end":401.37,"text":"這應該就是政府來做那今天政府如果要來做這件事情跟內政部的協調還有國防部這邊的大戰略的策略到底是什麼現在國際看起來都在往這個方向走所以是不是權動署可以先做一個簡單的說明然後我待會再問一小部分跟後備有關的"},{"start":404.099,"end":426.858,"text":"首先剛剛就聽了委員的說明大概跟我們了解的是一致的他這個訓練的計畫不管是任性之路或者是後備之路他最主要的目的就是有兩個第一個就是提升全民的一個國防防衛意識第二個就是要來強化這個後備軍人的一個作戰能力"},{"start":427.498,"end":453.82,"text":"那他最終的目的呢就是要來備戰因為他看到烏克蘭被俄羅斯入侵的這個那我們看了他的這些課程就是安全、生存、急救這些治安的這些課程其實跟我們的全社會防衛任性現在正在推的各種這些計畫或者是訓練民間的訓練是不謀而合的比如說這個"},{"start":456.861,"end":480.989,"text":"這個內政部他在108年就開始有這個這個防災式的訓練那從去年開始他又擴大擴大除了這些我們各層級的這些消防人員他要做之外還有替代役跟這19個民間的這些團體比如說慈濟紅十字他都一起來搭配來做那去年他本來是要"},{"start":482.349,"end":503.253,"text":"10萬人他已經超過了11萬人那我們國防部也搭配內政部在所有的義務役的義難不管四個月或一個月的一年的在這個入伍的就有這個戰傷急救那到了下部隊之後兩週之內要完成這個防災防災式的這個訓練那這個訓練一樣都是在強化我們的社會韌性強化我們的社會韌性"},{"start":510.914,"end":529.081,"text":"至於後備的這一部分其實委員剛才也提到我們在今年開始都14天那也都在戰術位置報導首席作戰計畫希望這樣子的一個訓練模式將來我們的後備動員之後它就是一個集戰你可以馬上投入作戰我先這樣補充"},{"start":530.141,"end":548.489,"text":"那這個就是我稍微很快速的問一下就是說後備這個部分就他們在講後備的時候他們有這個無人機的預備版那因為當然我們現在當然我們一直在討論無人機我們在我們年度的預算也有無人機然後我們在這一個特別預算那特別預算那一個不是我們一般可以操縱的無人機"},{"start":549.349,"end":569.979,"text":"那關於這一個無人機的軍事預備班他們最主要是重量不超過5公斤的非常小型的然後我看他在16所學校也有先做一些示範從今年4月開始然後另外一個就是網路團這個我在之前質詢有提過因為在烏克蘭他們也有這樣做就是他除了原本比如說像我們的直通電本來就有專長的人嘛"},{"start":570.499,"end":591.244,"text":"他去跟民間原本的去開啟這個協作的關係這個協作的關係指的是說如果今天有任何災害發生的時候今天國軍跟這些所謂民間的這一個懂網路的能夠做這個網路的預備的能夠做攻擊防守的這一些人有沒有一個協調跟運作的機制"},{"start":593.505,"end":620.383,"text":"那這個在烏克蘭它是形成一個非常大的它是由國防部來主導那這個看起來並不是在我們現在直接的計畫所以那如果他們現在開始這樣做我知道我們有做一些簡單的這個無人機的訓練那我們的人才我們的能不能夠有適當就是那個充足的這個飛手跟我們有沒有夠多的比如說網路站的人才可以從民間做吸納這方面現在的規劃大概如何簡單的跟國人說明一下"},{"start":620.643,"end":639.14,"text":"跟委員報告一下現在有關無人機的這些非操守他在就是他以前在民間有這個專長那他如果退伍之後我們先把他列入邊管那後續在他就是進入教育召集的時候我們可能把這些人納入這個訓練的一個範圍跟範疇那加強他的在職的訓練這邊跟委員做簡單的那網路這一個部分呢"},{"start":648.834,"end":671.426,"text":"這個部分都是,跟委員報告,這個都在我們的子民申選的那一塊跟委員報告,我當然要說明一下就是說這些有特殊專長,而且是我們一定要,我們會把它放入子民所以它即使是,就是說它一個兵退伍那如果它是具有這樣我們認為急需的專長,我們把它納入子民"},{"start":671.986,"end":697.443,"text":"那現在後備的部分我們會把鞭屎動員做為後續第一個項目所以將這個常備部隊的鞭屎部分立即集戰化這個也是第二個重點大致上我們會按照一個順序然後接下來當然是首備旅後面再來是後備旅所以您剛剛講的這些專長包括他有一個重要的比如說無人機的專長或者是網路站特別是網路站我們會把這些人做一個"},{"start":698.638,"end":724.398,"text":"完全的管制然後把它納入指名召集的部分那最後一點就是說呢當然就是除了我們能夠找到人才我們開始有這樣的一個編組之外我們也要給一定的誘因所以這剛剛定語文有提到的這個或許我們來跟財政部真的是可以來討論一下我們去增強那個誘因我覺得對他們來講的話他們更願意來加入是 這個要跟財政部溝通對 這跟財政部溝通好 謝謝部長因為時間差不多謝謝主席 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"17309","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17309","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b41997f390c3528e84a0a9d3ab318e792042dc10dca826773e07a0549bf20b5143af424687d436d55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2026-03-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期財政委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2026-03-30","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2026-03-30T08:31:02+08:00","end_time":"2026-03-30T12:13:00+08:00","duration":13318,"影片長度":"03:41:58","委員發言時間":"08:31:02 - 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報告及詢答完畢二 委員質詢未為及答覆及或請補充資訊請財政部於一周內以書面答覆委員另邀請期限者從期鎖定三 委員王世堅 蘇清泉 楊秋英 邱志偉所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報並請財政部以書面答覆通過臨時提案留案宣讀完畢"},{"start":1843.656,"end":1870.256,"text":"議事部暫不確定請議事人員宣讀今日議程邀請中央銀行楊總裁金榮率所屬單位主管暨財經資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告並備諮詢宣讀完畢現在介紹在場委員林德福委員與會政府官員中央銀行楊金榮總裁業務局謝鳳英局長"},{"start":1872.957,"end":1889.761,"text":"發行局 鄧炎達局長外匯局 蔡炯明局長國庫局 吳亦娟局長金融業務檢查處 潘雅惠處長經濟研究處 曹體仁處長秘書處 龍瑞祥處長"},{"start":1897.784,"end":1920.781,"text":"會計處 郭淑慧處長資訊處 陳功處長人事室 張淑慧主任法務室 謝家文主任中央印製廠 林忠謀總經理中央造幣廠 葉木欽廠長財經資訊股份有限公司 林國良董事長"},{"start":1928.601,"end":1933.216,"text":"今日一時安排邀請中央銀行楊總裁金榮列席業務報告現在請楊總裁進行業務報告"},{"start":1945.802,"end":1975.222,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士先生今天呈邀前來貴委員會報告本行業務自感榮幸本行經營目標在於促進金融穩定健全銀行業務維護對內及對外幣值穩定兼顧協助經濟發展以下緊究國內外經濟金融情勢以及大院上議會期以來本行執行貨幣信用與外匯政策等主要業務提出報告進行會事指教"},{"start":1976.722,"end":1999.691,"text":"第二月 國際經濟金融情勢告一預期本年全球經濟成長率下滑本年3月S&P Global Market Intelligence假設戰爭於本年4月中旬前和緩預測本年全年經濟成長率由上年的2.9%降至2.6%較戰前"},{"start":2004.233,"end":2025.783,"text":"預估值下調0.3% 主要經濟體預測值亦都下調國際油價高漲 全球通膨壓力升溫因近期能源價格大漲推升通膨壓力 本年3月S&P Global預測本年全球通膨率為3.2% 與上年持平 為較戰前"},{"start":2029.565,"end":2057.817,"text":"預測值上調0.4個百分點主要經濟體預測值逾多上調第四頁二 上年10月以來FED兩度降息AECB維持政策利率不變BOJ升息 人行則延續寬鬆貨幣政策三 近期主要經濟體公債殖利率多走高美元指數回升 全球股價指數至歷史高點回落"},{"start":2060.933,"end":2089.852,"text":"第七 全球經濟前景面臨諸多不確定因素預期本年全球經濟前景面臨地緣政治風險升溫美國貿易政策發展及其影響主要央行貨幣政策調整路徑AI發展之經濟效益及其影響中國大陸內需疲弱與產能過剩等問題等諸多不確定因素仍需持續關注後續發展及影響"},{"start":2091.113,"end":2117.15,"text":"第八頁國內經濟金融情勢一上年台灣經濟成長率創近15年新高預期本年經濟成長穩健成長上年全年經濟成長率為8.68%則系近15年的新高掛二隨AI需求超乎預期本年國內經濟仍可望高度成長本行預測本年台灣經濟成長率為7.28%"},{"start":2121.834,"end":2139.326,"text":"機構對本年台灣經濟成長率預測平均值為6.4%目前本行評估美國新關稅政策對本年台灣經濟成長之影響因素有限中東暫時增添全球經濟下行風險其對台灣經濟影響程度取決暫時持續期間強度以地理換為請翻開第十四頁"},{"start":2151.427,"end":2169.332,"text":"三、上年通膨率反步回降,本年通膨展望溫和本行將持續密切關注中東戰事對台灣通膨值影響二、上年CPI年增率由2024年至2018續降為1.66%,系2021年以來最低且系2022年以來首度低於2%"},{"start":2176.934,"end":2196.843,"text":"不含蔬果及能源之核心CPI年增益,亦由2024年至1.88,細降為1.66%。14月 本年1至2月平均通膨率平穩,1至2月平均CPI及核心CPI年增益分別為1.23%、1.93%。15月 本行上修本年台灣通膨預測力,並將持續關注。"},{"start":2203.886,"end":2214.833,"text":"中東戰事對台灣通膨值影響本行將本年台灣CPI及核心CPI年增率預測值由上年12月預測之同為1.63分別上修為1.80、1.75%國內外主要機構對本年台灣CPI年增率預測值介於1.5至2.22%平均為1.74%通膨展望人數溫和"},{"start":2232.228,"end":2256.403,"text":"第十九月一本行維持政策利益不變有助整體經濟金融穩健發展告一本年三月本行禮監事維持政策利益不變二本行適度調整選擇性信用管制措施將全國資產人第二戶過戶代管制程序上限由五成調升為六成維持無寬限期"},{"start":2261.892,"end":2261.912,"text":"請翻開25頁"},{"start":2265.457,"end":2294.312,"text":"事 掛無事儘管當前國內房市交易降溫因銀行不動產貸款成長趨緩不動產貸款集中度緩降為尚不宜大屋放寬信用管制因國內房價衰以反轉維修正有限民眾過屋貸款負擔人重若大屋放寬信用管制恐導致民眾看漲房價預期心理在即將使本行七度信用管制成效功虧一簣"},{"start":2296.688,"end":2311.236,"text":"二十六月二 近一年來台股高漲之財務效果以及近期中東戰勢帶動油價上漲恐推升通膨預期兩者均可能使資金轉潤防勢二十八月"},{"start":2311.696,"end":2336.146,"text":"三上年新來幣兌美元升值為相對主要貨幣匯率穩定掛五一上年國內匯市美元供給大於需求本行淨買匯76.9億美元三十一月掛五三上年十月期間新來幣兌美元貶值4.64%貶乎低於韓元及日元新來幣波動幅度則相對穩定三十三月"},{"start":2337.707,"end":2352.905,"text":"4.本年2月底本行外匯存底較上年底增加,主要反映本行外匯存底投資運用收益。1.本行外匯存底系用於調節國際收支、穩定金融及外匯市場。本年2月底本行外匯存底為6,055億美元。"},{"start":2357.951,"end":2377.649,"text":"上年12月底本行外幣流動性約為7,244億美元包括官方準備資產為6,075億美元其他外幣資產310億美元以及其他未來一年內可使用之外幣流動性858億美元"},{"start":2383.13,"end":2402.617,"text":"三十六月四 新台幣鈔券改版推動進度及官民參與辦理情形告一本行已籌組並召開新台幣鈔券改版主題資訊委員會且達成多項具體結論及建議作為本行後續相關規劃之重要參考"},{"start":2407.46,"end":2428.178,"text":"四十月國內重要支付系統盈利概況掛戶二持續督促財經公司協助推廣行動支付四十一月本行持續穩步推動CPTC研究計畫四十二"},{"start":2429.474,"end":2451.006,"text":"四十二月 掛五一 建立零售型CPTC之數位經由平台掛五二 以批發型CPTC支持資產代幣化之創新發展並試驗建構未來代幣化金融基礎設置可行性三 改善跨境資物規劃四十三月 掛五四 舉辦CPTC面對面溝通活動"},{"start":2453.211,"end":2472.675,"text":"44月結餘以上僅就國內外經濟金融情勢與本行主要業務提出檢要報告至於本行調節金融通貨發行外匯管理及經理國庫等業務外礦則置於賦入進行著參本行捐付促進金融穩定健全銀行業務維護對內及對外幣值穩定兼顧"},{"start":2476.356,"end":2497.362,"text":"協助經濟發展之法定職責隨時密切注意國內外經濟金融形勢發展妥適運用各種政策工具以達成政策目標本行業務促成各位委員頂住與支持請藉此機會表達衷心感謝之意今後仍請各位委員實事指教謝謝"},{"start":2500.753,"end":2520.168,"text":"謝謝楊總裁現在開始詢答先做一下宣告每位出席委員發言時間8分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘每位列席委員發言時間5分鐘今日上午10點截止發言登記現依登記順序請登記第一位林德福委員質詢"},{"start":2536.504,"end":2542.098,"text":"謝謝主席楊總裁還有與會各列席官是不是請楊總裁請中央議員楊總裁"},{"start":2554.108,"end":2566.663,"text":"因為先前央行理監事聯席會議的資料來指出整個標普全球公司假設中共的戰爭將在四月中旬前來和緩"},{"start":2568.846,"end":2580.176,"text":"那央行預測今年的經濟成長率為7.28%是繼以中東戰爭可望在4月中旬結束你認為可不可能"},{"start":2582.691,"end":2599.343,"text":"如果說我們如果說看那個美國的副總統的談話好像是這個會在四週到六週的樣子當然我們也希望如此那今天的經濟成長率真的你認為有這麼樂觀嗎"},{"start":2601.404,"end":2627.847,"text":"以目前來講的話如果說戰事是短期的話呢那麼如果他沒有這個戰事沒有影響到美國的這個AI他的CSP就是他的那個他的那個他這些好像Amazon的這些公司他的投資的一個投資的一個的金額的話那麼台灣的出口"},{"start":2628.447,"end":2642.811,"text":"他的動能還是會跟去年會差不多所以說總裁你認為這個很樂觀是不是目前來講是審慎樂觀那個因為台積運預測只有4.05%那央行你這個怎麼來看待這個"},{"start":2652.272,"end":2679.021,"text":"數據的落差因為4.05跟7.28差將近一半就是三點多我想就是說它的情境的分析情境的分析有的機構他會認為說他就會把那個情境的分析把它用比較嚴重的一個情境分析來分析所以我認為他是用比較嚴重的一個情景"},{"start":2679.321,"end":2700.059,"text":"那對照目前各方的說法,如果不信啊,中東的戰爭持續到九月,那我請問央行對我國經濟的成長,你認為有如何的影響?我想我們會,第一個我們會密切的注意,這是第一個,我們密切注意而且收集資料。"},{"start":2700.76,"end":2718.222,"text":"第二個因為我們每年的理事會3月6月9月12月所以這三個月的時間到下一次的6月的理監事會足夠時間讓我們去掌握更足夠的數據來做下一次的一個預測"},{"start":2719.904,"end":2733.874,"text":"總裁啊因為中東戰爭影響整個國際原油供應出現了嚴重的缺口那也帶動油價上漲直接推升尤其是塑膠品的生產成本物價紛紛的涵罩那"},{"start":2736.916,"end":2752.207,"text":"石化上游的供應鏈吃緊國內的整個石化產業相繼針對PVC PE PP等宣告不可抗力並同步減產那本席關心通膨的問題請央行說明如果中東戰爭的持續弱物價壓力持續的擴大"},{"start":2761.77,"end":2774.079,"text":"影花第二輪的通膨效應央行四月份你認為要如何去因應呢我想就是說現在目前大家都非常的關心這個通膨"},{"start":2776.261,"end":2780.924,"text":"那以目前來講的話通膨我們認為就是說到目前我們把它上修到1.8那這個呢請請是用85塊從我們原先就是說油價是從58.3呢我們把它調高到85塊那這個呢調5就45%85塊是全年啦不是說某一個時點是全年"},{"start":2800.618,"end":2811.77,"text":"那如果說這個它的油價現在85塊呢全年85塊大部分的機構大部分都是用85塊那要是再往上呢往上的話呢那通膨率就會往上如果說到100塊100塊左右的時候那通膨率就會往上調"},{"start":2822.621,"end":2831.646,"text":"不過呢我們有初步的這個做一個情景假設說全年到100的話那這樣的話通膨大概會在1.9左右1.9會到1.9那個莊財因為"},{"start":2838.909,"end":2865.844,"text":"關於主權基金設立的問題總裁在不同場合做過很多的說明我想這一點我就不要再追問本席想了解央行對AI人工智慧運用在投資的看法以挪威的主權財富基金為例利用人工智慧AI管理投資組合曾多次也揪出投資組合中可能涉及強迫勞動"},{"start":2867.065,"end":2887.653,"text":"腐敗或詐欺等等這些問題的公司使其能先行的邁出避免人受潛在的損失那如果未來設立主權基金央行是否贊成主權基金管理應用AI人工智慧來輔助行政院官員的決策我想這個"},{"start":2889.854,"end":2910.938,"text":"這個挪威的這個做法我覺得也是值得去參考不過現在目前我們的主權基金還是在正在發展當中那當然我想這個主管基金現在目前是國安會在歐比萊我希望央行能夠為他籌謀是是好謝謝"},{"start":2914.059,"end":2941.278,"text":"因為近期我們受到中東戰爭的影響許多延誤料波動那過去央行曾表示這個新版鈔票單張印製成本由現在的差不多3.5元提高到5元那如果鈔票及延誤料採購成本異常飆高央行是否會暫緩整個鈔票的改版我想是不會啦"},{"start":2941.578,"end":2970.213,"text":"不會喔那絕對一定要做就對了是是是那你絕對一定要做你等於是變成3.5元飆到5元你認為老百姓人民怎麼看3.5元到1.5元你看看齁就是說以24年24年從3.5漲到5元我如果說用直覺的來計算的話應該是不算高不算高對因為算不算高如果1.5元"},{"start":2971.374,"end":2988.954,"text":"如果鈔票的紙及原物料採購成本異常的飆高這個其實像央行你們應該要考慮暫緩因為本席我請教總裁這個印製薪鈔成本5元是地板價還是天花板價"},{"start":2991.823,"end":3009.131,"text":"我想在看後續的發展是怎麼樣委員一直在關心成本改版的招券的紙張的成本但是我也要跟委員報告"},{"start":3011.172,"end":3027.262,"text":"金融安全就是說這個金融安全應該比我們所想的這個成本的高還要重要對應該是這樣子不然的話如果說到時候因為現在科技現在說實在是科技是非常的發達"},{"start":3028.123,"end":3055.774,"text":"我知道啊我們二月四年來改版算是在其他先進的國家來看的話呢算是非常慢的非常慢的所以我們應該要就是說應該要加快進步那個總裁嗯央行舉辦新操改版的網路票選結果前五名分別是島嶼生態保育動物之美民俗捷徑還有和諧共榮保育植物之美對"},{"start":3056.834,"end":3078.229,"text":"那目前發行的鈔票共五款是否就責定這五個主題來進行設計還是另有其他的考量我想這個十名甚至十二名之內我們都可以考量那個另外因為你正面正環正環就有不少的那個總裁因為這個"},{"start":3082.418,"end":3099.597,"text":"央行有負責中央印製廠負責外交部的護照印製護照內的內頁的景點包括台北101、淡水漁人碼頭復工博物院、龜山島等等"},{"start":3100.717,"end":3124.35,"text":"那鈔票改版圖案何不就沿用護照內頁的圖案主題來設計圖案爭議也比較低而且總裁你有什麼看法事實上那些是以前我們護照我也看過我覺得那時候設計得非常好那如果鈔卷鈔卷的話也可以來參考一下我是認為應該可以納進去考量是可以參考"},{"start":3128.343,"end":3148.725,"text":"總裁 是鈔票改版央行說將研究採用更環保的紙張或複合材料並強化這個印製流程中的這個潛能減碳那新鈔印製能兼顧環保當然是好事啊但本期提醒未來如果新鈔改版"},{"start":3149.946,"end":3164.884,"text":"必須要預先做好材料的測試鈔票的耐用度絕對不能比現在的鈔票來的差不然新鈔改版就是製造民眾使用的麻煩是委員說的沒有錯所以說那個央行那個總裁"},{"start":3169.83,"end":3196.732,"text":"配合啊你也請總裁提供書面資料讓北京人了解紙鈔跟塑膠鈔啊優缺點因為跟全世界各國使用的整個狀況好不好最後一點喔對於新鈔改版央行說改版主要是因應舊版台幣還尾已經過時需要更新讓科技日新月異啊尾鈔技術也以時俱進光靠鈔票改版"},{"start":3198.413,"end":3220.152,"text":"事不足以防範偽鈔流通那媒體報導偽鈔的這些教護只要他們入監以後服刑過後他們一般都從超就業對此央行應該要審慎的考慮這些妨害國幣懲治條例的修法加重處罰這些印製偽鈔的人"},{"start":3223.473,"end":3241.784,"text":"好 那個委員的意見呢 我們都會納入參考好 我希望如此好 謝謝好 謝謝林委員請問各位委員對上次議事錄有無意義沒有意義 議事錄確定現在請第二位質詢 李燕秀委員質詢謝謝張偉 國務卿總裁 謝謝請莊義航 楊總裁"},{"start":3257.473,"end":3265.744,"text":"早安總裁我想今天大概財務會的委員大概都還是關注在整個中東的局勢跟後續對於油價通膨跟民眾消費的影響這整個局勢從2月28號到現在"},{"start":3274.595,"end":3280.92,"text":"我們看到從今年年初的油價每桶從60塊漲到現在90到110區間這樣的一個區間漲幅已經超過50%總裁你在會議上李監事會議後提到根據歷史的經驗這場中東的局勢不會拖延太長"},{"start":3294.589,"end":3305.539,"text":"這樣子的預估這是根據你過去的判斷但是會不會太過樂觀剛才你也回答林德福委員說如果油價持續在100塊以上的話通膨可能會到達1.9對不對是 沒有錯"},{"start":3311.084,"end":3331.282,"text":"中餐 那我們有沒有預估過 如果當然這不是我們預見 希望預見到的但是很多事情不是掌握在我們身上如果油價是後續持續的就是說戰爭持續的變成是區域性的戰爭因為現在看到的不只是荷姆茲海峽的問題"},{"start":3332.723,"end":3361.289,"text":"萬一如果曼德海峽也遭到封鎖的話這個是連接鴻海、亞丁灣跟印度洋整個歐洲跟亞洲重要的航道也就是全世界非常重要兩個運輸油的航道都受到衝擊跟影響所以身為央行的總裁我們就不可能只有一種劇本去做預估 對不對總裁你了解我的意思嗎是是是 沒有錯不是掌握在我們身上委員講得沒有錯"},{"start":3361.829,"end":3382.876,"text":"油價在100塊以上在120塊以上在150塊以上我們都要有不同的版本去做準備波動這些不只是價格的問題而是波動超大這個波動太大的話隨時波動再大後續可能會隨時再飆升這個衝擊影響總裁你有沒有去做這樣內部的預估跟因應"},{"start":3388.398,"end":3407.118,"text":"因為這個後續對於我們的利息要不要升息啊都會有衝擊影響是 我想呢 中央銀行也不會就是說一開始的時候呢 我們預測的情境呢就是用非常的就是說把它假設說它是中東全面的戰爭而且呢 持續的時間到九月"},{"start":3410.481,"end":3435.202,"text":"到今年年底 我想一個預測的機構呢不可能做這樣的一個情境的分析所以你沒有做 如果是有這樣所以有委員在講就是說 會這樣 當然會我們現在就是說 所以我剛剛也有在談就是說我們3月的時候呢 我們是用85塊 全年85塊來做情境的分析那"},{"start":3436.302,"end":3443.027,"text":"你這個85塊的標準現在都已經到100了所以你那個85塊的標準你是用我們預置油價真的預置油價委員我跟你們報告就是說80現在都您的意思說現在都已經到100多了110幾了不 那個是暫時現在目前"},{"start":3454.415,"end":3456.495,"text":"那如果說以整年來看的話從當時的58.3%我們的預測58.3%現在把它調升到85%的話那已經是上漲45%了全年所以你是整年的預估你用整年預估所以你的判斷就是說中東的局勢會在短時間之內獲得控制也不會"},{"start":3477.58,"end":3483.422,"text":"我們也不需要去預估有120塊萬一油價升到120或150的版本不需要不是因為隨著時間的經過那我們的情景的分析呢就必須要做調整也許啊也許就是說你現在85的那如果說它的發展是很快的就結束了以後它往下的話那也有可能到70啊"},{"start":3503.01,"end":3525.531,"text":"因為我今天時間有限我要提醒的是我當然希望局勢可以儘速獲得控制這大家都不希望看到但是那個局勢是什麼樣的變化沒有人可以掌握不是掌握在我們手中到底會是一個什麼樣的狀態跟變化所以未來油價假使是120 150"},{"start":3528.093,"end":3531.957,"text":"會是一個什麼樣的狀態 我們有沒有什麼樣因應的工具有啦 有 那當然有 當然有中央銀行不會就坐在那邊 我們不會就說去說所以這就是我要問你的嘛 所以這就是我的重點我想呢 第一個政府的一個穩定這個油價的一個措施這個平穩的機制呢 它是不是也會考量到加大"},{"start":3552.596,"end":3558.383,"text":"如果說油價一直往上的話這是第一個那第二個中央銀行呢我們中央銀行的一個職責呢有兩個第一個職責呢就是說我們要防止這個輸入性的通貨膨脹"},{"start":3567.213,"end":3588.727,"text":"輸入性通膨膨脹跟我們的匯率有關所以呢也就是說我們的匯率一定要讓它穩定這是第一個那第二個呢如果物價持續的在往上漲的時候呢那麼可能市面上的一個通膨的預期呢它可能就會形成那這個時候那中央銀行可能就必須要朝緊縮的貨幣政策來執行"},{"start":3592.108,"end":3609.312,"text":"緊縮貨幣政策 升息也是總裁 那我要請問你 這個戰爭持續的拉長就是引發最近有一個塑膠之亂我想你應該有聽 因為所有的東西都在漲所有東西都在漲 包括醫療手套什麼都在漲那這個塑膠之亂後續衍生的問題"},{"start":3614.493,"end":3639.78,"text":"這個就不是只有政府我們控油就是油電不漲 動漲電價 重漲油價或來做補貼可以去做後續的處理那這些因應的政策跟方法你有什麼建議包括我們現在我先提一個比較具體我們這一次全球的尿素跟硫磺漲了35%跟45%其實這些都是從荷莫茲海峽運輸進來"},{"start":3642.021,"end":3665.472,"text":"戰爭一旦拖長下一波農產品價格會不會也是持續的上漲我跟委員報告行政院的一個穩定物價小組呢他有包括了這個農業部他有包括了這個公平會他有包括了經濟部相關的部會包括我們中央銀行所以呢也就是說"},{"start":3666.592,"end":3691.759,"text":"我剛剛所說的它的穩定的油價還有穩定其他相關物品的原料的物價行政院相關的部會都會去關注它那中央銀行的部分我剛剛也已經說明了我們中央的部分就是剛剛我所說的在匯率方面 在利率方面我們如何來配合政府的維穩的一個措施"},{"start":3693.246,"end":3696.297,"text":"所以總裁就是說我剛才提到的就是說"},{"start":3700.473,"end":3723.269,"text":"原油的漲幅後續整個原物料的上漲其實都是帶動所有的各行各業可能都會漲我剛才講包括醫療手套 塑膠藥罐藥師也預估出這些醫材未來的漲幅會高達三成我最近有聽到今年要選議員的朋友跟我講今年刊版反部已經公告"},{"start":3723.709,"end":3739.726,"text":"所有帆布要漲兩成所以所有的東西都在漲那這些能源價格上漲對國內物價的傳導的效果影響程度其實是非常大的所以我擔心的不是只有今年1.9%CPI只有1.9%有可能會超過1.9%"},{"start":3747.633,"end":3769.191,"text":"這個我就說 我也認為就是說第二季這是一個關鍵不過呢 我講說第二季是我們理監事會的第二季的時候呢那這是一個關鍵 不過我也跟委員報告事實上呢 我們每個月我們都對這個情境的分析做不同的一個的蒐集資料然後做不同情景來做分析"},{"start":3772.048,"end":3793.676,"text":"那你有沒有給行政院 萬一如果CPI超過2的話行政院就要很多的工具進場我想行政院你看看行政院有非常大動作的就是說你看沒多久他就有一個聯合的一個穩定小組的一個會議那我也跟那個委員報告那個二屋戰爭的時候啊"},{"start":3794.236,"end":3799.841,"text":"那二溫戰爭的時候那是供給面跟現在的是一樣的二溫戰爭現在這也是那個美伊戰爭這個戰爭所導致的供給面呢一定是要供給面的措施來因為我覺得這是一個跨部會的合作準定物價包括你手邊可以的工具財政部可以的工具我覺得所有事都要硬硬做好準備因為我今天議題很多"},{"start":3817.595,"end":3837.071,"text":"我想問一個新青安2.0的事情2.0你的看法過去新青安1.0在實施的時候很多人認為說跟你的央行打房的政策事實上是相互衝突的那我們現在2.0要上路新的2.0有幾個政策就是包括5年縮短成3年取消部分利息的補貼還有年齡限制成為80條款"},{"start":3838.712,"end":3860.2,"text":"你對於這個新政案2.0行政院其他包括財政部有沒有找你溝通過你的看法對於2.0應該做什麼樣的調整如果2.0要上路的話你有什麼看法我想第一個我要跟委員回答的就是說第一個就是說是不是他新政案跟我們的選擇新政案是不是有衝突我覺得事後來看的話是一致的"},{"start":3860.6,"end":3884.975,"text":"因為我們都對對手過足對弱勢者給他一個信用所以你支持新西蘭2.0目前我在媒體上看待2.0政策你全部都支持沒有沒有沒有當然所以也就是說它有一些的副作用但是現在副作用在要到7月的時候呢這個部分呢行政院那有也有找我們中央銀行溝通那現在正是大家正在討論的時候"},{"start":3885.976,"end":3906.425,"text":"好所以目前看起來就你的說法星期二2.0我在媒體上看到新的三個勝策跟方向基本上看起來你好像應該是支持的他那個是我不知道那個他的消息來源是從哪裡來我從媒體上看不過我跟委員報告現在他的final他的最終的版本還沒有出來"},{"start":3907.901,"end":3929.551,"text":"目前看來都有找你溝通過就對了而且呢 幾次幾次大家都有在溝通好 就是目前在媒體上看到新千二二點零政策方向上是找央行溝通過的而且看起來是央行跟行政院跟財政部的版本是一致的沒有衝突的好 謝謝林委員到最後應該是一致的好 謝謝林委員下一位諮詢委員請賴世寶委員"},{"start":3949.665,"end":3952.467,"text":"謝謝主席 一起更新進有請央行的楊總裁"},{"start":3966.83,"end":3995.169,"text":"亂中有序亂中有序 因為外面在修正 所以你內心也在修正蛤 不會 不會喔外面是亂的 我們新的是靜的你不會睡不著覺 不會應該不會吧台北這樣 一直發生這麼多呢北的這麼厲害你 會不會心肝要丟一丟我們要了解情況我們要了解情況 但是呢在做決策的時候 一定心要很平靜 要很定"},{"start":3995.882,"end":4002.315,"text":"可是現在已經匯出去 外資賣了匯出去才八千多億了 一直出力 一直出力 那你不緊張"},{"start":4004.796,"end":4022.493,"text":"我想這個事件導致資金的外流到目前為止我覺得這是可控的而且我覺得股市如果說上漲到某一個程度來做某種程度的調整應該也是正常的"},{"start":4025.956,"end":4052.227,"text":"所以你的意思好像保衛文講啦台股漲太多啦藉這個機會拉回來整理很正常啦我們不用怕啦跟你說的意思就這樣子對吧到目前為止我覺得台灣的經濟的成長各個層面來講都是還是很穩健的我問你喔這樣台股有沒有被低估有沒有超低有沒有"},{"start":4053.756,"end":4059.58,"text":"有沒有超跌如果說我們從去年的2800多點上漲到35000多點然後現在是collection到33000 32000的話我覺得還是正常的"},{"start":4070.789,"end":4077.152,"text":"所以跌的很正常就對了所以你說跌的很正常 央行總裁點兩點 台灣股市跌的很正常我想當然啦 我跟委員報告啦 我不是股市的專家啦"},{"start":4092.059,"end":4108.835,"text":"價格 包括匯率 股市 金融資產上上下下都是正常的只是說 比較怕他上漲得太高結果跌下來跌得太重我們過去有沒有上漲太高我們前一陣子有沒有上漲太高"},{"start":4110.798,"end":4117.346,"text":"我個人我不是股市的專家我想我也不要在這邊做某種的一個那這樣的話有些股民有些時候他聽了不爽快我想我還是不要發表意見好了你剛才已經發表很多了"},{"start":4129.676,"end":4156.338,"text":"你剛才已經發表很多了 不用了這個楊金龍總裁頂兩頂現在股市向下是修正 正常狀況什麼都不怕你的意思就是這樣我的意思是說什麼都不必怕不是 還是要謹慎啦投資這種每一個人的投資的動機都不大一樣所以我在這邊講的時候我沒辦法對每一個人的投資的那個動機"},{"start":4157.219,"end":4159.021,"text":"你今天現在講說我們央行估算優價一年85塊錢一桶"},{"start":4174.361,"end":4176.923,"text":"現在我們了解大部分的機構都是他現在的中位數大部分都是說85塊可是萬一漲到150呢"},{"start":4190.735,"end":4219.054,"text":"那到時候再重新再那個再重新再做一百五十什麼概念啊講到一百五十就代表打仗啊代表打仗啊那個委員我也可以這麼說啦那如果漲到兩百塊呢那漲到兩百五十塊呢我總覺得這種機率呢都不是很高以目前來講的話都不我也可以說那漲到一千塊啊那這個機率就幾乎近乎零啊"},{"start":4220.496,"end":4245.396,"text":"所以這個還是要看機率啦你要小心喔 你要講說賬一千塊 大家怕死喔沒有沒有 我說機率是零 我說機率是零一千塊 一年只會賬到一千塊所以我就說 我的意思就是說在這邊講說他要賬到哪裡 賬到要有依據不要隨便就說我是會兩百塊啦 會升百塊啦因為現在已經有一百多啦 沙烏地阿拉伯的官員講說會一百八啊"},{"start":4247.417,"end":4271.571,"text":"我想他在講這句話的意思是說可能會漲到這個某一個時點會漲到這個點但是全年的平均有可能嗎會那這個就是說他的機率是怎麼樣所以這個是要用機率去如果有打仗打到年底就可能了怎麼可能打仗一直打到年底就可能不過這個機率也不高"},{"start":4273.699,"end":4294.127,"text":"你認為什麼時候可以這個機率也不高因為從我剛剛在講我剛剛是要從歷史的經驗來看然後第二個我就說美國的副總統他也就說可能是四桌到六桌我覺得美國的態度可能我們會稍微應該要比較相信一點"},{"start":4295.029,"end":4323.069,"text":"所以就是再兩個禮拜再進出我也不敢這麼說因為他也沒辦法做他也沒辦法做這樣的一個所以這個是兩兆之間這個油價一直漲會產生全球性的通膨這句話對吧他會上全球的通膨看他第一個他漲的幅度是怎麼樣這是第一個第二個呢每一個國家的漲幅可能就不一樣"},{"start":4324.468,"end":4335.445,"text":"每一個國家的帳戶就會不一樣為什麼因為每一個國家他的對石油的需求對石油的需求他就不一樣啊我們台灣的需求相較韓國相較日本我們需求是相較比他們還低"},{"start":4341.032,"end":4353.5,"text":"我們都進口的相較低對對對我們有做進口但是呢他進口的量還是比我們高你講絕對值但是比例我們是很高的那央行我看你這裡要說你們隨時準備銀子就是要維持到32塊錢對不對"},{"start":4359.914,"end":4386.588,"text":"你說是我們要維持在32塊錢什麼32塊錢 匯率匯率我們還一直都說匯率是由供需來決定我們供需決定 沒有確實就是這樣子 市場就是供需但是如果說對於市場有影響到我們的金融的秩序"},{"start":4387.188,"end":4391.952,"text":"那是什麼時候?那就是他逼迫32塊就是了啊沒有 這32塊 我覺得第一個 中央議員一直都不會就說我們升的防線是在哪裡 我們貶的防線是在哪裡都沒有 所以沒有揚金的防線就對了都沒有 但是我要跟委員報告 就說"},{"start":4411.568,"end":4428.062,"text":"剛剛我也一直在強調中央銀行在現在目前這個通膨的一個議題上第一個我們要比較注意的是輸入性通膨輸入性通膨到目前沒有輸入性通膨的話就跟我們的費率有關"},{"start":4436.413,"end":4441.68,"text":"這個台幣的改版喔全部一百塊 兩百塊 五百塊 一千塊 兩千塊頭部要改嗎"},{"start":4445.308,"end":4458.457,"text":"我們現在還是在考量不過跟其他的先進國家它的鈔票的張數不是張數就是說幾張幾張像有的都有8張的有7張的有6張的有5張的也有4張是比較低4張也有但是大部分都是在5張以上"},{"start":4472.006,"end":4477.108,"text":"我們是五張我們是五張啊可是我給你算一下100塊錢的市佔率大概25到35%200塊錢小於1%2000塊3到5%1000塊40到50%500塊15到25%200跟2000就不要了如果接這個改就不要了不夠 2000還用啊"},{"start":4498.609,"end":4511.834,"text":"不過委員每一個國家他有幾張幾張他也不是說哪一張比較低他就把它淘汰掉沒有這個是一個搭配剛剛委員就說那這張不要這個就你個人來看啦整體來看的話這個搭配起來是很好的啊"},{"start":4523.138,"end":4549.631,"text":"200塊那個市場的效益一拍那我跟委員報告事實上很多國家的二字頭它的流通率也都很低但是他們也有說流通率低很低然後他就把它剔除掉沒有你總共要花多少錢做改版花多少錢做改版我們也已經講得很清楚啊如果改版的話一張大概會增加成本1.5塊錢"},{"start":4551.032,"end":4552.236,"text":"那現在說看總量嘛因為總量現在50億"},{"start":4560,"end":4587.148,"text":"不一定不一定啦不一定先讓我跟委員報告啦就是說我們反正都用張數來計算1.5下一次你們就講是50億啊沒有那大概就是說但是說實在說實在很多還有很多是多少多少第七波的信用管制從打草薄其實房市現在幾乎已經硬著陸了在硬著陸上現在有硬著陸嗎"},{"start":4590.071,"end":4607.317,"text":"在運作路的路上所以你現在我們很密切的注意所以你現在維持市場穩定力放寬第二戶可以貸款次數增加就是想要不要讓他一直運作路要他變成運作路這樣講對嗎"},{"start":4609.959,"end":4624.379,"text":"我們還是在強調要軟著陸啦這個就是我們的基調就軟著陸啦要讓他軟著陸現在呢我們就說房價是在反轉的開端而已啊開端而已"},{"start":4625.691,"end":4630.495,"text":"我們密切的關注我們密切的注意好 謝謝 謝謝賴委員下一位請郭國文委員質詢"},{"start":4658.873,"end":4660.357,"text":"謝謝主席 有請楊總裁請中央議員楊總裁"},{"start":4667.873,"end":4691.969,"text":"國務院長總裁我想我也是來問一下房市的問題這一次的集中度相對有大幅的下降從37.6%降到36%但是顯然這一次看起來央行雖然非常注重這個集中度但關鍵還是在於說房價的漲幅所以還不到放鬆的時刻民眾的購屋都是主要國家當中最高的"},{"start":4692.449,"end":4721.082,"text":"所以關鍵還是房價嘛就如同你在溫暖的喊話說只要建商讓利的話交易量就會出現這一說法其實說來說去關鍵就是房價可是這樣房價的情況底下呢目前為止啊我們一直想要去做這個信用管制從2020的12月到2024的9月第7波以至於到今天為止其實那個央行啊處理這個信用管制已經也長達4年之久"},{"start":4721.762,"end":4735.311,"text":"就叫前一波的六年其實已經相近不遠那是不是代表著說房價只要沒有朝向這個所謂的軟著陸的這個跡象或到一定的幅度的情況底下這信用管制會持續進行是不是這樣子總裁"},{"start":4737.694,"end":4759.691,"text":"我想這只是其中的一點而已不是說那一點很大點吧這一點這個也是其中一點另外一個就是說現在以現在來講的話譬如說中東的戰事中東的戰事中東的戰事沒有中東戰事我們就有信用管制對所以我們也是必須要非常小心"},{"start":4760.011,"end":4788.732,"text":"對 所以說但是呢其實在這一次的房價過程當中呢其實有一個政策其實會變成推波助揚的效果也就是新青安新青安的這一個2.0 1.0討論了很多過去總裁也有講過因為新青安一開始太過於寬鬆造成許多負面的影響央行也付出了很多代價來刪後這是總裁你自己說的喔新青安的1.0到7月的時候就要到期接下來2.0要上路那過去你認為太寬鬆的部分是什麼"},{"start":4789.986,"end":4804.7,"text":"是不是他那個寬限其實從3年改做5年應該不是800變成1000或是繳那個貸款還款的時限從30變40到底是哪一個太寬鬆哪一個你會擔心如果說2.0出現的話會不會重蹈覆轍卓財"},{"start":4808.263,"end":4828.861,"text":"有沒有什麼呼籲事實上委員也點到了問題了啦你也點到了問題啦不過呢 我在想以財政部還有相關的部會來看就是說包括內政部啦 中央銀行啦 金管會啦這些都有在 現在都有在你要不要喊話一下 在那央行的高度你認為是不是要縮短"},{"start":4829.953,"end":4858.806,"text":"寬限期寬限期如果說據我了解就是說財政部的資料顯示就是說很多一部分都是在三年以下就75%以下都是在75%以下都是25%在炒作25%是在五年我現在請教你的看法不是財政部的說明那我是總覺得就是說當然啦"},{"start":4860.847,"end":4869.494,"text":"就一個弱勢者來看的話他五年也許對他是好的不過呢我說我個人的看法我覺得就是說"},{"start":4875.58,"end":4892.806,"text":"一個寬限期如果太長的話不好一個寬限期太好的時候呢就這個借款人如果你如果說寬限期太長的時候不好五年太長嘛我們現在慢說五年是不是太長我們就說如果太長的話呢會導致他的一個財務的規劃呢比較鬆散"},{"start":4898.848,"end":4903.092,"text":"會鬆懈如果說我們讓他縮短一點的時候也許他的一個財務的規劃會比較謹慎這樣的話對他也很好對銀行也很好你實在太客氣了總裁我想你大概已經點到說那個寬泉期確實是造成你困擾一個很重要的原因因為以前講過很困擾這個確實會有造成這種現象拉回來說"},{"start":4924.312,"end":4938.451,"text":"剛剛在講說你把第二戶放寬到六成的這個部分普遍社會反應是好的一來很重要的關鍵原因是因為今年已經陷入這個交污潮你如果沒有的話你可能會造成違約潮"},{"start":4940.214,"end":4954.694,"text":"違約草的話一般的購買方他可能會造成違約金會被拿走之外也會造成許多的困擾所以你現在的這個反應是好的我想你用意可能是怕造成這樣的結果但是我必須說"},{"start":4956.296,"end":4984.862,"text":"從房貸的這個平均利率的部分 販款利率的部分從2024年的這個8月就是您在實行第七波的管制的2.5%到2.88%到今年的部分已經到2.60%到3.30%可是你去看銀行這兩年的販款那個利率利率不用講存款利率不用講 販款的部分大宗的周轉金的販款是下降的消費的貸款利率是下降的唯獨購屋的貸款利率是上升的"},{"start":4985.842,"end":4999.408,"text":"而且是平均上升的0.16這代表什麼因為銀行嚴格審查這個房屋的貸款案件之後呢變造成啦是一個貸方的市場借方的市場也就是消費者自願提高利率來爭取這個貸款的成數"},{"start":5001.229,"end":5019.533,"text":"有這種現象那同樣的問題啊現在房價高居不下的情況底下你即便讓他那個比較喘一口氣五成變六成可是你利率的負擔沒有下降啊對不對你看看喔央行所做的統計喔去年的部分呢本國銀行賺了6175億比前年呢增加了773億成長了14.3%喔"},{"start":5025.194,"end":5040.84,"text":"那就是說呢銀行現在再加上今年是交付潮會不會姿態更高會不會把這個利率拉得更高你結果呢買第二戶的人他承受的壓力就會更大莊太第二戶的人是什麼樣的人你們報告中也寫得很清楚嘛"},{"start":5041.26,"end":5061.11,"text":"你們肯定多數的第二戶都是屬於自己或家人自住嘛也就是所謂換屋啦就學啦就業啦需求啦或鄉下老宅不能住的情況底下才巴不得已再買第二戶嘛不是嗎總裁這種情況底下這樣的利率負擔總裁你要不要跟銀行喊一下話不要趁火打劫可不可以"},{"start":5063.11,"end":5090.527,"text":"我想就是說就銀行他的一個放款的一個practice他的一個實務來看的話第一個他的定價還是以風險為考量啦每次都說風險管理但是我就問你嘛同樣的放款有兩個下降的一個是上升嘛現在這就是信用管制的後遺症啊銀行就是藉由你的大刀"},{"start":5091.707,"end":5106.173,"text":"來砍向老百姓啊這個我也跟委員報告你不殺柏仁 柏仁是因你而受傷或死亡啊不不不你不想要這樣子 結果就這樣子了總裁因為就是說你要約束一下這些銀行啊是"},{"start":5107.754,"end":5117.206,"text":"不然那個承擔罪過是在你身上啊總裁我要做善意的提醒我不再做譴責了好 委員我們針對委員這個議題我們再來深入的跟銀行來了解對 有道理嘛"},{"start":5122.913,"end":5146.189,"text":"你應該找他來喝個咖啡 喝個茶 喝個白開水都好不要造成那個購買方的壓力第二戶就相信報告的第二戶大部分都自助你自己寫的啊 對不對那如果第二戶都要自助的話第一個原因就是利息你不應該負擔過重嘛不是嗎第二個原因是什麼這個六成有沒有機會再變成七成有沒有可能"},{"start":5147.352,"end":5170.094,"text":"假以時日啊如果等同一支柱的話就跟第一戶差不多啦如果您的判斷是如此的話還是要保留一個戰略彈性空間將來以後再說我想委員的這個意見我們來深入來跟銀行來討論因為每一家銀行的practice是不大一樣的普遍是增加您的報告就講了獲利率增加14.3%"},{"start":5172.556,"end":5197.568,"text":"這是你寫的所以說他很清楚嘛他獲利的來源在哪裡嘛你看起來看他你很溫柔的對待他吧這個貸款的這個比例增加但是貸款的利息卻更加的沉重總裁我是跟您分享民間的一些看法我不希望你在執行國家政策當中負有太多的一個不必要"},{"start":5197.568,"end":5199.749,"text":"最後一個問題我想問一下總裁的部分我們之前有對話過黃金的問題"},{"start":5222.634,"end":5243.245,"text":"房金起起伏伏啦大概我們現在大概總用了房金的存量全球排名第13名然後大概有兩兆之多目前在外匯的比例大概佔一成現在呢大概過去的話大概5%是因為價格增高但是我想問一下當初你說你如果說呢可以的話你也不排除要買進最近有買嗎"},{"start":5244.566,"end":5263.535,"text":"最近沒有買三個月都沒有買沒有你也不管他起起伏伏沒有可是你整個整個外匯儲備的這個配比的部分的話難道黃金就是固定到5%或10%還是要全部都壓在這個美債嗎沒有一個固定匯率的政策嗎央行的一個政策是一個我們會試時機啦"},{"start":5266.696,"end":5284.923,"text":"timing現在不是timing,好的timing即便戰爭打成這樣子也不是好的timing我想也不是都不考慮現在還沒有還在看適當的時候還沒有,時機好的時機還沒有到所以說配比事實上是可以拉高的"},{"start":5286.323,"end":5301.913,"text":"我們也有想要就進場但是這個不是timing也有想要進場但是還不是好的timing所以配比是可以拉高的不是固定的好謝謝總裁謝謝主席謝謝來謝謝國委下一位執行委員請林黛樺委員好主席有請總裁有請莊議員楊總裁"},{"start":5317.466,"end":5330.601,"text":"本席也是針對這個台幣匯率的穩定不應單靠美債就我們這個我們本國央行美債尤其是供應國家的債券跟黃金的配比的策略也是要救教這個總裁"},{"start":5332.443,"end":5355.316,"text":"那我想在外匯存體的部分的治理不過有這個三層保障當然貨幣政策以穩定為優先外匯存體是台幣實質購買力的核心支撐這也就是為什麼我一塊麵包可以用30元台幣而不是用3000元台幣來購買所以這也是穩健的外匯存體跟貨幣政策保障了人民台幣購買力"},{"start":5356.697,"end":5370.328,"text":"那外匯存底的這個穩定的外匯存底跟黃金儲備人民也得到三個保障那第一個匯率與物價的緩衝保障當外部衝擊來的時候央行更有能力來穩定市場減少進口物價 油價"},{"start":5372.049,"end":5393.376,"text":"原物料與藥品價格被匯率波動放大的風險第二個呢這個保障是金融跟就業的穩定保障企業與銀行的外幣調度若更穩金融市場就較不容易因為突發的震盪而緊縮對投資融資就業當然有幫忙"},{"start":5394.236,"end":5402.959,"text":"那第三個呢這樣的穩定的一些政策呢也讓國際貿易與企業競爭力成為國際貿易跟企業競爭力的後盾外匯存底及黃金儲備會穩定新台幣對外匯率與確保國際支付的能力為企業在國際貿易中提供這個"},{"start":5417.003,"end":5434.358,"text":"安定的貿易基礎我講到這個啊其實當然外匯的台灣的外匯存體跟黃金擴存配置是否合理那在這邊呢我講到這三點保障其實是我要給央行說聲讚啦其實在外匯存體6029億的美金當國際金融震盪兩岸局勢緊張尤其現在"},{"start":5440.803,"end":5465.966,"text":"全球油價蕩漲的時候我們這筆錢確實是用來穩定新台幣穩定物價保護我國民生開支的最後一道防線美伊戰爭之下台幣匯率目前是穩定的所以在這邊也感謝總裁跟各位同仁的用心那當然我還是會提到這個台幣穩定台幣價值的兩大支柱的對比到底黃金儲備跟債券"},{"start":5466.647,"end":5495.59,"text":"那黃金還是硬通貨啦這個價值基礎具有內在的價值而且是避險之王不會隨著國家的信用消失而歸零如果現在真的發生債券要貸的話會是貸黃金不會是貸鑽石其實理由就在這邊那債券呢這個是本席的這個對於為什麼本國持有這麼高比例的美債我是有疑慮的還是在於債券它是他國的信用保證"},{"start":5496.451,"end":5502.335,"text":"它的價值基礎完全取決於發行國的幣值跟主權債性也就是會面臨發行國的通膨與信用貶值所以當美元在貶的時候我們國家也可能會跟著貶"},{"start":5514.762,"end":5519.067,"text":"它在美元漲的時候我們台灣的這個台幣也會跟著連動性的漲這就是一個我們要注意所以財務操作的基本原則是風險規避我想這個是基本常識"},{"start":5531.64,"end":5554.407,"text":"財務操作的基本原則是風險規避所以美債持有將近外匯存底的八成甚至八成五為什麼把雞蛋全部放在同一個籃子裡有沒有評估增持其他工業國家的債券呢以間接強化外交的影響力比如說我想目前我們最"},{"start":5557.228,"end":5573.381,"text":"一個事件在美中的加稅的競爭當中中國他就澄清喊出說如果美國你再繼續對我中國做不合理的加稅的話那我就要拋售美債"},{"start":5575.582,"end":5594.18,"text":"這就是對於在只有當一個債券的持有是對於外交的影響力我是不是也可以對其他的工業國家本國我們對於德國日本的債德國他也可以發行美債啊英國也可以發行美債啊日本也可以發行美債啊"},{"start":5594.6,"end":5622.601,"text":"當然他們國家的債券我們當然也可以評估有沒有可能這樣的這也間接的在我們影響外交影響力當中我們的貨幣政策是可以盡一點心力的另外在投資學的三大原理流動性跟獲利性跟安全性當我國過渡只有這麼多的美債這個安全性又在哪裡呢總裁你先暫時先把這個我的問題先放下我們再看黃金"},{"start":5623.582,"end":5648.99,"text":"黃金在各國 這個是我調出來的資料這個各國持有美國公債的比例跟黃金的比例我就看後面這五年2020年3月到2025年3月這當中國際上持有美債其實是最後的2020到2025是持平的甚至也緩慢下降但是黃金是升值的"},{"start":5650.09,"end":5672.344,"text":"這個是一個國際趨勢好那在這個是你們提供給我的我們從78年一直到115年2月我整個的黃金的存底的存庫38年來是持平的這跟國際上的一個局勢上好那所以這也要救教總裁那為什麼黃金"},{"start":5672.944,"end":5681.009,"text":"不爭持呢這兩年來的黃金價格從2176美元超到現在5211美元漲幅高達110%當然這一兩週有下降但是你不可以去否認一件事實這樣的一個是呈現一個上升的趨勢黃金作為實質保證的戰略價值當全世界央行都在這個曲線上獲利"},{"start":5702.964,"end":5717.986,"text":"避險的時候台灣央行的黃金石油量卻是一條死魚幾十年沒有成長好我在這邊有一個具體針對這兩個這樣的訴求總裁你可以一併的表達您的看法"},{"start":5718.567,"end":5740.241,"text":"在降低資產配置高風險的策略提出如何解決主要債券過度集中的風險的說明是否評估增持其他工業國家的債券來分散風險並間接強化外交影響力另外也提出黃金持有策略的評估報告為新台幣提供更強大的實質支撐對應全球的債信貨幣的貶值潮總裁您回應一下"},{"start":5748.926,"end":5771.181,"text":"我覺得委員分析得很好你分析得很好不過我想因為你時間也有限所以你也要我們做功課那我非常贊同就是說我們也來做個功課來看看能不能來說服我們委員所提出來的這個"},{"start":5772.022,"end":5774.263,"text":"說服啊 表示都不調整啊當然啦 就是說這個我所謂的說服的話呢表示就是說我們的做法是什麼也不是說硬梆梆的就NO 也不是這個意思好 那兩週內提供出來好嗎是是是 一定會"},{"start":5792.512,"end":5819.553,"text":"那另外本席要針對這個當然了外匯存體是可以穩健但不能過度集中這是本席一再強調其他工業國家的債券是否也予以評估黃金可以不追高但是不能沒有策略來維持國內物價跟獲利的穩定央行必須具備與時俱進的合理外匯存體跟黃金資產的配置那這是本席的還是一個追蹤的期待"},{"start":5822.175,"end":5851.147,"text":"另外我針對信用管制的無差別性台灣房價的所得比就是衡量購屋壓力的指標呈現的是區域分化六都跟其他縣市即使是六都 北 中南高雄市跟台北市整個在購屋壓力的指標就已經有很大的不一樣所以央行是否考慮分期管制"},{"start":5851.787,"end":5877.807,"text":"譬如說針對特定的房屋過熱區淡黃區實施高強度的管制但給予非六都或基礎建設發展中的地區或者是北中南東我們的區域發展是不平衡的是不是給予非六都或者是北中南東不同的區域或者是在基礎建設發展中的地區有較大的信貸彈性"},{"start":5879.668,"end":5902.901,"text":"那給予支持地方創生跟人口回流所以在這邊是不是您願意來評估滾動式的檢討納入區域差異指標在你做信貸的時候因為就我一個直轄市高雄市我就覺得我跟台北市的資源長期以來就分配不均了我不要說六度光是六度我就覺得北中南"},{"start":5903.661,"end":5925.18,"text":"就已經有很大的差別了我們跟台南跟高雄跟台北我就覺得差別很大包括新北也是一樣我都覺得我們都覺得相關的資源基礎建設我們南部高雄就有一條快速道路你很難想像你在台北新北基隆桃園"},{"start":5926.661,"end":5945.168,"text":"幾十條的幾十條一二十條的這個快速道路你很能想像喔快速道路我們高雄只有一個八八屏東高雄一條現在要增建第二條叫做國七你看北部台北新北桃園基隆包括它的這個捷運的綿密度"},{"start":5945.968,"end":5966.327,"text":"所以光是這樣的基礎建設 包括 只是說你在做信貸的時候我希望你能夠納入區域指標 針對六都與非六都 這是一個指標你針對區域的發展 北中南東也是一個區域指標能夠呢 這個 以及呢 在基礎建設發展地區需要較大的 譬如說特別一些農業區"},{"start":5967.888,"end":5983.285,"text":"等等你應該採取差異化的管制標準例如差別的貸款陳述避免信用管制變成區域歧視總裁您怎麼看這樣的一個建議呢您的建議我們會考量"},{"start":5984.406,"end":6010.611,"text":"好您這個也可以兩個禮拜評估一下我覺得這很嚴肅喔在這個信貸當中你的一個打房政策跟我們這個新清安的這樣子當然是很矛盾我在總諮詢都有提出來那當然現在是對於本身你要做再持續的做信貸的一個這個放寬或加嚴的時候我相信我要請託你在區域的均衡上這個一定值標一定要納入好謝謝 以上好謝謝林委員下一位請劉書斌委員質詢"},{"start":6030.051,"end":6031.601,"text":"好有請楊總裁請中央銀行楊總裁"},{"start":6038.415,"end":6059.533,"text":"劉仁早總裁早我們現在首先來討論一下台幣改版的問題在看到現行的台幣它的偽造率是非常低的數位化的支付也在提升我想你們這次要改版的一個很重要原因可能是防衛技術要升級還有數位跟綠色轉型是嗎這是你們最主要的目的嗎"},{"start":6065.777,"end":6088.104,"text":"我想呢最主要的目的呢也是在於這個議題我來是不是請我們的發行局來回答這個問題不過我想因為時間這個是應該從你們報告當中拿出來的這是其實這兩個目的是最重要的嘛對不對這個您說哪兩個是最重要的防衛技術升級的需求還有數位跟綠色轉型的需求"},{"start":6089.585,"end":6114.062,"text":"我想一個改版也不是就只有這兩個目的當然當然也不是這兩個目的我跟委員報告台灣二十幾年 二十四年我知道我知道二十四年我們才改版事實上我們裡面的design我們的設計說實在跟我們台灣目前在經濟 社會 文化方面都已經是"},{"start":6115.863,"end":6131.827,"text":"我知道總裁我知道這個議題我都看過你的報告我現在想問的下面就是說這個改版看起來有24年沒了所以有些需求對不對那我現在問題是你們在規劃呢是應該是2026年訂稿之後經過設計的他會置版跟試印嘛最快是2028年117年要去編列預算起來說立法院通過順利的話就會開始首批印製嘛對不對對那請問一下那這樣子會因為現在"},{"start":6142.569,"end":6151.8,"text":"中東的這樣的情勢我們的預算什麼的中油啊台電都大幅增加支出等等你們還有動漲嘛對不對那這樣子你們會不會延後的這樣一個執行不會好不會那沒關係我再繼續問下去那不會齁這個之後應該只能增加十幾億嘛對不對每年大概增加十幾億"},{"start":6161.511,"end":6172.735,"text":"我們會就是說每張到目前為止我們評估還是會就是說會增加成本1.5OK了解好我現在問最重要的是有特別性之後你們會增加二字頭例如說200 2000個新超比例對不對那這樣的一個情況就是說這個比例增加大概會多少"},{"start":6178.217,"end":6186.843,"text":"那會不會增加因為通膨或是說你每當會節省一些預算因為你印製的成本每次都不用再每次再換鈔我想這個兩百兩千會不會增加通膨節省這個不會增加通膨吧應該不會"},{"start":6197.53,"end":6206.717,"text":"應該不會啦你的感受讓民眾感覺尤其現在呢我以每次兩百塊的比例兩百塊的拿出來如果變得比較多每次有兩百塊那變成說呢我的物價可能就說剛好有兩百塊本來從一百塊出頭變成變成接近到兩百塊啊那當然有這個需求啊不會啦"},{"start":6214.483,"end":6232.649,"text":"形式上面就有這樣的一個狀況嗎不會因為這個超卷就是說一百兩百五百一千兩千這都是一個搭配啦不會我們就說我們兩百就增加了兩百的話呢那會不會就是說導致通膨不會"},{"start":6233.689,"end":6251.146,"text":"那你要隨時追蹤喔 你到時候要追蹤喔那另外我們繼續再往下看喔光學識別系統跟硬體的更新你們看到這樣子的一個圖上面很像政府的政策都有民間負擔這邊部分會不會有些會不會有些差異性政府要做一些幫忙在光學識別設計上面還是都一樣嗎"},{"start":6256.427,"end":6275.067,"text":"你所謂的硬體多要更新 明天你增加改版對不對對對對會啦 但是呢這個是他一share了以後呢就應該就是說就不會就很多啦因為我們如果說就硬體來更新的話大概就是說全部是16億是不是"},{"start":6277.13,"end":6291.801,"text":"那你16億元那是由民間來支出嗎那你是不是要做一下補貼民間是民間對啊是民間啊但是你增加他的預算啊你增加16億的支出你不需要幫他支付一些費用嗎"},{"start":6295.322,"end":6300.688,"text":"總裁你必須要苦民所苦就算是銀行或是點鈔機等等的啊我想是這樣子啦就是說他如果說就廠商來講的話廠商去ATM調整的話呢那是廠商賺錢是反而是他賺錢啦而不是他負擔啦"},{"start":6315.984,"end":6326.654,"text":"沒有我說 你說光學 識別鏡 硬體等等的這個不是增加負擔嗎 你的角度看起來很奇怪這個大概就是說是銀行要負擔那銀行負擔的話 我總覺得如果說以16億來講的話如果說16億來講 銀行那麼多"},{"start":6336.963,"end":6343.847,"text":"賺的錢很多可以支付起來就對了是不是我總覺得對銀行來講那超商的部分怎麼辦 點等的部分你要從民間的角度去看你現在應該是一個我想我跟委員報告像這種調整像這種調整以前都調整過了那以前調整過的話它在調整的過程都很順利那這些的問題以前也都面臨過"},{"start":6363.559,"end":6381.451,"text":"所以在經驗上應該就說它不是一個大問題我們繼續往下看這部分有沒有包括紅色的部分應該是您個人喜,接下來的這個有十二項你們個人喜這部分當然已經知道是保育生態那這邊你自己的喜好呢"},{"start":6383.211,"end":6392.762,"text":"你說我的喜好你如果在那個16項12項當中您的喜好這部分您的選項是什麼我個人的是不是對我個人選項我剛剛也都在講啊他我們那個我們不會說按照1234這樣來排列啦這些都可以做參考啦"},{"start":6400.39,"end":6416.882,"text":"那您的選項沒有我的選項 我總覺得這都很好這都很好我們繼續 終於看到一個重要的問題央行這邊呢在19號的時候呢他做了一個國際原物料的原油價的這個因為有預測從58.3元變到85塊錢然後CPI變成1.5 1.8可是這個1.8其實是因為有了這個還漲的機制嘛 對不對不然本來應該是2.15對不對那現在問題是說CPI"},{"start":6430.291,"end":6443.838,"text":"超過多少央行才會準備要升息我們一般來講都說2%是一個警戒線不過我總覺得2%它不是C0它不是那個最高點因為就是說2%就中央銀行來看的話2%是中長期的目標"},{"start":6454.404,"end":6463.854,"text":"對 可是總裁 你當初我們看到了 你在報告上面就出現了實際上如果真正加進去沒有這樣的專案緩漲基礎就2.15了嘛 對不對那過去大概2.5的時候大概就會調升了嘛 對不對這個到時候再說啦現在也不能說我們2.5我們就一定要升啦"},{"start":6474.565,"end":6477.226,"text":"那如果以其他國家的央行包括歐洲央行跟聯準會齊高了呢我跟委員報告你看看他現在那個美國的PCE他的通膨他都2.8還有扣還3.1但是他說他當然他現在他的計畫是要下降的要降息的"},{"start":6497.637,"end":6501.918,"text":"那個是美國總統他去干預他們的聯準會啊這個是聯準會他自己說的不是美國總統要指示他在這麼做的不是他的2.8跟3.1現在他的通膨率但是他還是在講說他可能要到2028年才能夠達到所以他的降息他現在在講的降息"},{"start":6524.324,"end":6534.471,"text":"楊洋總裁你剛說你可以知道你這個資料是從什麼時間出的因為三月二月底沒有啊他最近而已喔好如果是這樣的情況之下你可以看到國際趨勢你看還有不只是美國那跟還有歐洲這部分各國差異有差異我們就繼續再往下看那另外一個部分是看到的是中油現在累計的虧損到去年年底就804億對不對財務有緊繃那您知道他已經有提出3500億的四年增資計畫嗎"},{"start":6550.901,"end":6552.562,"text":"那請問從523章2022年開始到現在中油增資央行有沒有關注到經濟部或是中油的原物料的避險的事情"},{"start":6569.256,"end":6582.486,"text":"這個是他的職權啦而且我跟委員報告他們中友跟他們台電他們自己內部如何來避嫌我覺得中央銀行是"},{"start":6583.987,"end":6600.157,"text":"是沒有這個沒有啊總裁你不要你要講的清楚你雖然看起來是看起來是經濟部的資訊但是物價是由您在決定和穩定度通貨膨脹是您來決定他如果有問題的話是不是你要決定我跟妳報告一下就是說"},{"start":6604.6,"end":6628.132,"text":"我們二五戰爭的時候 包括現在中東戰爭它這個都是原物料 都是供給面都是供給面的因素所造成的那供給面的因素所造成的 就要讓供給面的政策去對付它那供給面的政策對付它 這個行政院它就有一個物價穩定的小組中央銀行 我剛剛也已經報過過了"},{"start":6630.293,"end":6633.235,"text":"我們中央銀行有兩個有兩個職責在這裡面呢第一個我們是涉及到匯率的問題涉及到利率的問題對然後想到匯率的問題我想到那現在美金需求就變得很多了所以不會影響到我們匯率現在匯率其實我們已經今天就已經出現這樣是不是要增加到32塊的這個標準啦"},{"start":6653.489,"end":6666.059,"text":"所以我就說了匯率我們會一定會抓這是我們的職責這是一片連動的啦我想最後再最後一個問題就是經濟部跟中央的這個能源物料原物料必顯的這部分您有了解嗎我們基本上"},{"start":6669.281,"end":6686.811,"text":"基本上他們的那個避險的一個措施我們基本上我們也都會有注意他啦不過呢這是他們自己內部所做的一個避險的我知道 但是你有知道因為你才做那個後面的這個物價穩定的部分嘛包括做過匯率的部分去做一些改變嘛對不對是 這個是他們的職權啦那這個是經濟部主要的那我們中央銀行也可以當然委員在講也沒有錯啦我們中央銀行也可以做一個advice啦"},{"start":6696.876,"end":6716.409,"text":"這只是說advice而已是一個對 就是你們互相有商量那我知道中央營養跟部會事實上是要做很好的在溝通是是是 委員這樣說也沒有錯啦OK 好 謝謝好 謝謝林委員下一位請賴會委員 委員質詢先宣告 等到本席質詢完畢之後休息五分鐘謝謝謝謝主席 請央行總裁 楊總裁請周一郎 楊總裁"},{"start":6729.548,"end":6729.95,"text":"那有人找"},{"start":6730.974,"end":6756.945,"text":"總裁早安本席來自於農業的險區在這一次中東的戰事其實不只是能源的問題其實也跟農業有相當大的受影響中東的戰事其實我們都知道美國是我們台灣最主要的農產品進口的國家"},{"start":6760.286,"end":6783.834,"text":"那這樣子的一個過程裡頭其實不是只有這個石油漲價所有台灣高度以來進口的各項產業其實都非常非常的辛苦尤其是說股物價格的波動還有今天要跟你探討的就是蛋回價格的一個波動蛋一頓從美金500漲到一頓美金700"},{"start":6787.535,"end":6808.211,"text":"那你看我們有很多農作物其實我們就需要養葬這個氮煤有氮煤的話我們的植物才會長得好這植物長得好的話那基本上就是說我們的畜牧產業才可以把這個牛羊還有我們的豬把它養胖養足"},{"start":6809.372,"end":6825.661,"text":"那可是我們看到央行在報告中有特別提到了從伊朗戰爭開始 燃油那個價格還有穀物的價格還有氮毀的價格都上漲了可是你在這裡你還是特別提到了就是說"},{"start":6826.961,"end":6852.326,"text":"這一個蛋回出口受影響那美國的農產品成品那個整個生產的這個成品也上升了那該用什麼樣的一個方式那顯然你在這一個看到你的報告裡頭你還是認為你還是認為就是說我們CPI溫和溫和的一個上漲那你甚至就是"},{"start":6853.88,"end":6868.837,"text":"這個其實我想很多委員今天一直在跟你抗議的就是說怎麼會是你的評估是這麼溫和呢你可不可以解釋一下我比較在乎的當然石油是最重要的可是我的蛋回就是影響到我的農產品"},{"start":6872.079,"end":6895.825,"text":"我跟委員報告基本上這些的因素就是說會影響到各種各種的一個像委員所列出來的這些的原物料的一個上漲那這個所以我就說第一個我們的行政院的穩定物價小組他就是有做一些的立即有做一些的因應"},{"start":6897.225,"end":6918.741,"text":"那我跟委員報告在俄烏戰爭的時候政府也是用這樣這一個供給面的措施來緩和我們國內的物價的上漲那在當時說實在的我跟委員報告那時候我們台灣用這樣的穩定的措施是"},{"start":6919.421,"end":6927.869,"text":"是我個人評估最有效是最強的是最好各個國家的物價都漲得很厲害但是我們台灣那個時候那個時候的那個漲價的那個我們算是溫和的有的時候那個時候美國跟歐洲他的物價都漲到10幾%但是我們最高才3點幾%而已"},{"start":6945.785,"end":6952.349,"text":"可是看起來顯然這一次的戰爭會打多久我們看起來就講不定那如果我們一樣又是用補貼又是用這個減增貨物稅又是用調價可是我今天告訴你的就是說我今天我的蛋回物價的一個波動不是跟酒油一樣 酒油是馬上去的"},{"start":6972.601,"end":6986.768,"text":"所以平穩物價的一個措施不是現在才開始那怎麼辦呢你要告訴我就是說這個可能這個淡回的一個那個波動他可能是半年後"},{"start":6987.708,"end":7003.827,"text":"是,不過委員我也很誠實的告訴你跟您報告啦,事實上我總覺得這個是農業部必須要來處理這個事情說實在的,我在這方面,農業方面我不是專家"},{"start":7004.528,"end":7019.494,"text":"所以呢我也沒辦法來跟委員報告就是說這個蛋肥這個上漲了以後呢我們怎麼樣來處理啊讓你的後面的這個後面後面的這個物價可是央行不是要對於全面的中東戰爭受到的一個物價的影響也必須要是全換位的嗎我們所謂的全面的是"},{"start":7025.802,"end":7048.237,"text":"就總體的物價來看的我們不是對每一項每一項每一項來看的如果說每一項每一項都來看的話那中央銀行的這個物價我們的利息要來上升調整的時候我們就沒有依準以你的經驗你一定會告訴我說這個我也不知道你認為這個中東的一個戰事會打多久"},{"start":7049.643,"end":7068.278,"text":"然後從數一四那個經驗裡頭就是過去我們長榮有一台船卡在這個數一四運河結果這個船隻卡住了結果物流延誤了一段很長的時間那它也造成了這個也是在後面"},{"start":7069.239,"end":7092.794,"text":"那也在半年以後才造成這個供應鏈的斷面然後全球的通膨那現在一樣就是荷姆茲海峽他把它鎖定了然後就說你不准走那不准走的時候油價就是上漲了況且好再請教一下總裁你現在認為一桶原油到未來不要說很空的一百億你覺得一桶的多少錢"},{"start":7095.646,"end":7118.213,"text":"你說什麼我說你的原油價錢一桶會多少錢一個禮拜以後你不要回答我說你的戰爭戰爭會那個打多久這個你不知道我不是一個預測專家所以我就說你不是一個預測專家可是起碼你要有這種能量你也可以算命這個就考倒我了"},{"start":7123.915,"end":7124.916,"text":"我們只能就說情境的分析啦我們只能就說我從58.3塊錢那時候當時我們就說一年這一年58.3塊錢"},{"start":7146.131,"end":7148.294,"text":"現在一個禮拜以後我的鹽油一桶會多少錢你的情境中我們是說這一年我們是85塊啊"},{"start":7163.113,"end":7176.76,"text":"從58.3%增加到85%那我們的85%不是說某一個時點的85%是全年的平均那近期呢近期的話大概我如果說我們現在來看的話近期應該是90到110"},{"start":7180.402,"end":7197.993,"text":"近期是90到110你的近期會是一個禮拜還是兩個禮拜我再想到3月底到4月中以前3月底到4月中我在3月底到4月中90應該不會那麼低應該是至少95到115左右"},{"start":7205.458,"end":7209.483,"text":"95到115這個短時間是可以這樣但是長期的話我覺得長期是應該不會那麼長因為應該不會那麼高因為如果說它在短暫之間在比較短的時間結束的話後面那邊油價應該是會下來的"},{"start":7224.209,"end":7249.307,"text":"好 那我想從你的報告裡頭你還是特別在提到了你在安撫大家這個疫情就是會通膨那你告訴大家說其實你的疫情通膨是溫和的因為政府採取了很多的評價那個平穩那個物價的一個措施不管是補稅還是那個就是調降還是補貼"},{"start":7252.049,"end":7266.521,"text":"總裁已經這麼久了我們老是用這幾招有沒有想到你那個國安基金是來平價股市那有沒有辦法就是用一個主權基金來那個穩定你的物價呢"},{"start":7269.924,"end":7291.683,"text":"一個基金一個基金它有它特定的目的那你的特定的目的你一個基金它要提供那麼多的目的的話就是說要扮演那麼多的功能的話不大事物價穩定基金我們現在面對的未來最多的地緣政治風險"},{"start":7294.865,"end":7320.54,"text":"其實我們是應該要提早準備的我們是應該要提早準備的你的看法是怎麼樣委員這個概念我覺得好像也很合理啦譬如說你剛剛講到國安基金國安基金就是穩定股市嘛那以前你提了這個概念事實上以前我們都有物價穩定基金"},{"start":7321.6,"end":7337.553,"text":"平穩基金它叫做平穩基金那這個地緣政治的一個風險是我們必須要去面對的是那個平穩基金但是這個平穩基金我覺得這個概念是以前我們也有討論看看啦研究看看啦不要講說這個跟你沒有關係這個絕對跟你有關係你是總裁耶進來的都是叫董事長而已謝謝賴委員"},{"start":7349.682,"end":7368.286,"text":"下一位諮詢委員請李坤成委員諮詢謝謝主席我們請楊總裁請莊議員楊總裁總裁慢慢來沒關係先喝口水再上來沒關係李委員早"},{"start":7374.247,"end":7391.936,"text":"總台長辛苦了謝謝你早上我也聽到很多委員都很關心第一個就是我們的經濟成長率第一個就是我們CPI那我先問這個經濟成長率好了那央行是預測經濟成長率今年有7.28%的成長率那其實都是高過外國的機構的預測他們預測大概6.4%左右"},{"start":7401.92,"end":7424.126,"text":"總裁是對於台灣的產業是非常有信心包含AI的產業我們這些應用科技持續的有出口但是其實黑天鵝也蠻多的像關稅的影響或是說中東戰事的影響中東戰事也不知道何時才能確定結束當然川普是希望說四月中旬之前能夠結束但是現在油價也還在漲"},{"start":7426.647,"end":7452.761,"text":"這個大概就像總裁剛才講的嘛短期間大概就是90到110這個區間那難道這些不會影響到說這個總裁對於我們全年度的經濟成長率的評估嗎會我跟委員報告所以就是說事實上呢我們我就一直在強調中央銀行的一個禮監事會我們是3月6月9月12月嘛正常的事"},{"start":7453.021,"end":7463.162,"text":"這是三月的評估就對了這是三月的評估那我們在六月呢我們會再次的評估為什麼這中間呢一定是要發生很多的事情"},{"start":7463.84,"end":7467.423,"text":"其實還是中東戰事影響最大所以我們就是說它持續的時間它的強度還有就是說它涵蓋的範圍這個都是我們密切注意的因為你們這個預測是說當時的油價是每桶85美元是是是 現在是全年"},{"start":7485.217,"end":7509.652,"text":"現在就是說看起來油價大概85這個價格有點低估了啦不一定喔現在我跟委員報告現在大部分的國際的機構大概也都是用全年全年全年85塊來做一個情境的分析當然他也有用70用80用100他也有"},{"start":7512.694,"end":7539.531,"text":"但是呢普遍大部分都是用85那所以總裁是對於這個7.287%以上的經濟成長率有信心就對了以目前來講的話因為我們在強調的就是說美國的四大CSP就是國際雲端服務供應商去年我們的出口很好就是跟美國的科技業是連在一起的"},{"start":7540.331,"end":7558.928,"text":"這些的科技業它的投資如果說很好的時候我們來出口就很好所以總裁認為是台灣的基本面沒問題我基本上以目前來講的話我們的基本面還是穩健的所以消息面短暫會受到影響長期拉到比較久的時間就今年來講"},{"start":7564.433,"end":7587.43,"text":"7%以上的經濟成長率還是有信心就對了到目前為止我們還是做這樣的一個預測那一個是經濟成長率一個就是CPI那CPI我看總裁的這個報告還是說維持溫和的1.8%也跟國外的這個評價起來稍微低了一點我們高一點我們有高一點嗎我們高一點那不是有到2點多的嗎他們是反而是比較他們是1.76我們1.8"},{"start":7590.352,"end":7609.187,"text":"也有機構平衡到2.2%因為每一個機構是不太一樣的我們就說這些著名的機構平均起來它是1.7%同樣的啦就是說油價在漲那當然我們現在油有讓它動漲或是說稍微吸收第二個就是電價也希望能夠維持這個動漲"},{"start":7611.949,"end":7638.966,"text":"這個油電的雙轉機制現在我們稍微把它稍微減緩了一下那可是呢這個會不會影響到說這個實質壽星階級的這個實質的薪資還是會受到影響勒是 會啦會啦還是會應該也會不過以目前1.8來講的話我認為他們還是可以吸收的啦還是可以吸收還是可以吸收的啦好"},{"start":7639.448,"end":7663.489,"text":"那現在有關房價的部分嘛然後這個房價這個房市信用管制部分這個央行現在把這個自然第二戶的購屋的貸款成數呢從五成放寬到六成那大家有在有在有在想就是說因為你們的報告也提出來就是說這個可能是會因為現在有這個大量新建住宅提出所以呢這個要持續呢"},{"start":7664.735,"end":7689.312,"text":"這個有這個推升代售新成物的壓力所以適度調整把五成呢提高到六成有助於消化代售的新成物是不是大概是這個用意就希望說房市能夠軟著陸是啦當然是說希望他軟著陸啦不過呢就是說剛剛講的這個預售屋的這個問題只是其中一點而已啦最主要的我總覺得應該是最重要的就是說要呼應民間對第二戶的需求啦"},{"start":7693.655,"end":7719.737,"text":"因為我們在報告裡面我們有談啦就是說第二戶的需求其實一直都有可是你們之前沒有放寬但是我們第二戶呢都是要必須要就是說我們是把它認為就是說如果說你是自住的自住的因為如果說我第一戶我給我的兒女我的太太或是我的父母但是我第二戶我是要我自己的"},{"start":7720.097,"end":7741.287,"text":"那你先就是說因為你從五成放寬到六成嘛對啊所以就是說呼應他們的需求啦真正的用意在哪裡這也就呼應他們的需求啊第二個呢就是說我們的信用管制也有一定的成效了啦也不能就是硬邦邦的在那邊啦這也是啦"},{"start":7741.787,"end":7751.292,"text":"那所以這個要預防或是說要讓希望讓這個房市軟著陸除了這個信用管制稍微放鬆之外還有其他的方式嗎"},{"start":7753.828,"end":7775.077,"text":"我想當然也許我們的產業也會因為我那個時候我也是覺得就是說要供體時間軟著陸的意思就是說你有些時候在價格上也應該要做一些給一般大眾的一個讓利"},{"start":7780.879,"end":7785.742,"text":"那總裁你所謂的那個讓利是指什麼是指價格希望能夠再往下應該就是說他可以在他的允許維持在一定的利潤的情況之下可以讓這個那總裁認為說讓多少是合理的讓利"},{"start":7810.879,"end":7811.082,"text":"哈哈哈哈"},{"start":7812.411,"end":7833.286,"text":"我也一直在想因為說實在的我對因為每一個廠商每一個廠商他的獲利是多少我都不曉得我們也沒辦法去知道啦只有建商他知道啦那這個呢就是要他自己評估啦那你如果評估的話假如說假如說他的我就說對總長你對於這些這些每個我們說產業好了啦這個產業不要講說建商就這個產業來講"},{"start":7841.392,"end":7861.549,"text":"那總裁認為說大概是讓利多少是一個也可以讓房市能夠軟縮利不過我跟委員報告啦說實在的啦在前幾年的時候他們我個人也許我講了他們不高興啦就是說事實上他們在前幾年他們賺的很多啦"},{"start":7862.269,"end":7879.45,"text":"賺的比較多那現在呢就是說慢慢的釋放出一些的話我總覺得在允許的範圍之內我覺得也可以讓所以總裁認為說稍微讓利其實是可以達到雙贏就對了讓利如果說讓利這個是供需嘛一樣的嘛這是供需啊"},{"start":7880.011,"end":7884.913,"text":"你的價格如果說能夠下降需求者覺得就是說這個是他符合他的需求的話那他當然他就會買啊你如果說硬梆梆的在那邊的時候價格抬那麼高的話那當然需求者他就不會進去啊那那個量就不會出來啊"},{"start":7898.66,"end":7920.605,"text":"最後我再問總裁就是說總統他有指示希望擴大自主都更這個政策然後卓議員長也希望說自主都更的時候要讓地主不要付大的成本來重建那因為現在影安法的第72條之二已經排除了都更危老的適用"},{"start":7921.605,"end":7939.693,"text":"但是呢你們還有一個對於各個銀行這個有這個不動產貸款集中度的自主管理那因為這一條會變成說讓這個自主都跟業者他們去申請貸款的時候其實是受到一些限制啦那其實過去這個內政部也有一個"},{"start":7941.314,"end":7955.569,"text":"也有跟央行有開過會嘛那也希望說是不是能夠放寬這個自主都更裡面那這個不要把這個自主都更的這個借貸的部分呢納入不動產這個貸款集中度裡面"},{"start":7957.19,"end":7984.366,"text":"這個謝局長好像也有來開過會嗎我跟委員報告說實在的啦事實上在我們選擇性信用管制的時候呢自主都更的這個部分都是我們排除的對象我們第一個排除在營養法是有我說排除在你的不公產集中管理啦那集中管理那我跟委員報告事實上我們集中管理對於那些就是說不必要你銀行不必要給他信用的"},{"start":7985.147,"end":7986.573,"text":"我們做這樣的 反而對這個"},{"start":7988.807,"end":8006.181,"text":"自住的都更的反而是有利所以我跟委員報告事實上從2021年他的本國銀行都更這個我們報告裡面都有我知道可是你這我現在是特別指說自主都更的部分沒有自主性都更跟這個都是包含在這裡面事實上你在講這個的時候我也跟委員報告事實上我們也跟有內政部開過會"},{"start":8017.45,"end":8043.059,"text":"開戈他就說你這個要換刊事實上我們跟他解釋了以後呢他就接受了所以到底現在有沒有納入這個不中產的集中的管理的額度裡面都已經就是說他都接受我們的說法也就是說都更的這個部分我們都把他排除在外了有排除在外就對了他不會影響到他所以他也一直就是說後來他就接受了"},{"start":8044.219,"end":8045.66,"text":"主席麻煩請中央議員楊總裁總裁"},{"start":8066.48,"end":8072.467,"text":"前年度台灣對美國的出超743億元去年度你有跟我說過說你預估是1200億"},{"start":8086.789,"end":8100.573,"text":"那最後大概是一千兩百零幾億嘛沒有 最後到一千五百多億的樣子是喔 有到一千五百多億對 一千五百多億那就幾乎又增加了一倍啦那從這個觀點來看這個國際貿易其實它的原則是講究平衡嘛對台灣東西出鈔那對於台灣賺"},{"start":8112.711,"end":8129.233,"text":"美金這個外匯非常有幫助可是站在美國的立場他一定會覺得說應該盡量平衡那所以從提高一年度就提高到1500億那假設今年度照你的報告"},{"start":8131.375,"end":8158.971,"text":"因為AI的關係你知道我今年度台灣的出口還是會暢旺所以很有可能今年度對美國的出招還會再更高是不是應該應該應該也是差不多啦不會就是說再更高啦不會再更高啦我覺得1500億就已經算是很高那現在再來就是因為這樣子的現象產生的後果要如何承擔呢現在是因為"},{"start":8161.815,"end":8176.334,"text":"這個國際在地緣衝突嘛美國以色列跟伊朗現在在衝突那另外烏克蘭跟俄羅斯侵略烏克蘭也還沒有結束所以現在很多資金是進入美元去避險"},{"start":8178.149,"end":8190.255,"text":"使得美元最近在國際間超強勢不然來講如果從國際貿易角度來看台灣對美國這麼多的粗糙台灣台幣對美金在國際貿易理論上應該是要貶值的"},{"start":8192.267,"end":8210.208,"text":"是不是啦 理論上應該是要貶值但是因為現在地緣衝突所以升值嘛對啊 那在這樣子的狀況之下將來台幣要如何避免要升值呢在地緣衝突結束了之後那台灣對美金那麼多的粗糙"},{"start":8212.17,"end":8237.564,"text":"我擔心台幣會快速升值欸我跟委員報告啦就是說市場都認為市場都認為就是說我們對美國的粗糙那麼多按照道理呢就是說我們的台幣要升值對啊他認為就是說我們台幣要升值不過我也跟委員報告那為什麼國際的貨幣最近在中東戰爭之後"},{"start":8239.565,"end":8253.765,"text":"每個貨幣都對美元貶值就大家避險跑到美國去 大家認為美元可以保值但是啊 因為避險 我用我們台灣的例子來看來跟委員報告就是說"},{"start":8255.604,"end":8272.903,"text":"如果說戰事一發生了以後美元在國際上它是搶的新台幣也貶值那新台幣為什麼會貶值新台幣貶值是因為外資在我們台灣的股市它抽出去了"},{"start":8273.868,"end":8291.778,"text":"他跑出去了那為什麼他抽出去抽出去他有吃虧嗎他沒有吃虧因為外資在我們台灣的股市呢他賺很多所以這個就是一個概念我必須要跟委員報告就是說我們的"},{"start":8293.739,"end":8306.029,"text":"經常帳或是我們的貿易帳即使是對他粗糙很多的話按照道理我們是應該要升值的但是他在我們的股市賺很多錢"},{"start":8307.597,"end":8335.049,"text":"所以那就是貿易帳的平衡了那個是對嘛也就是說你的經常帳你的貿易帳我賺你的錢但是他在我們的股市賺我們的錢啊是那在這個他跟我們賺我們的錢的時候呢這個外界都一直沒有考量到這一點他們都一直認為就是說我們賺多了錢所以新台幣一定要升值但是呢他都沒有考慮到他在我們的股市賺很多錢站在"},{"start":8337.47,"end":8360.006,"text":"這個是從國際貿易的理論上面來看那他從我們的股市賺了很多錢現在是因為國際地緣衝突所以大賣東亞的各國的股市把資金抽回美國他獲利了結嘛對但是獲利了結另外一個角度來講台灣的股票市場是一個健全的市場的話他將來還是會再大幅的回來沒有錯"},{"start":8360.606,"end":8385.382,"text":"他還是要倒可能回來 因為他要繼續賺更多那所以這個資金美金因為股市交易或是其他的交易來往往的這個資金是一時的現在走如果衝突穩定假設真的是四月五月結束他有可能六七八月的時候資金又過來台灣那時候台幣是不是就會大幅升值對啊 就有可能啊"},{"start":8386.162,"end":8404.144,"text":"所以就是說我跟委員報告基本上事實上台灣的一個外匯市場是由資金的移動來主導的而不是由出口的多寡來主導你講的這個我接受但是你如果長年的這樣子的累積"},{"start":8405.145,"end":8430.461,"text":"每一年用這個速度在累積對美的粗糙這個壓力還是一定都在的所以這個就是說我們在溝通的過程當中我們也要告訴他我跟你的粗糙不是因為我壓低我的匯率不是因為我們不公平的貿易的手段而是你真正需要我的產品"},{"start":8431.401,"end":8433.543,"text":"另外一點我們台灣的努力譬如說現在要跟阿拉斯加購買天然氣將來有可能購買石油等等"},{"start":8446.055,"end":8467.888,"text":"那在對美國對大宗物資的採購另外一方面說有一些台灣的企業去美國投資等等這些的作為稍微做一點平衡政府的作為嘛是是是我也非常贊同那個委員的這種看法這個貿易這個商品帳還是要互惠啦"},{"start":8468.548,"end":8476.812,"text":"也就是說你多買我的東西那我也要多買你的東西要付費貿易就是這樣子我非常贊同這幾年美國對我們是不是這個"},{"start":8482.711,"end":8504.45,"text":"外匯管制的作為這些事情把我們列為觀察國家因為我們一直有在跟他做很好的溝通所以他不會把我們列入操縱國但是還是長期把我們列為觀察國所以要拜託總裁還是要繼續努力跟美國溝通因為如果被列入操縱國那就不得了了"},{"start":8506.611,"end":8527.244,"text":"我想我也趁這個機會跟委員報告就是說事實上我們長久以來我們跟美國財政部的一個溝通都是非常順暢的他也理解我們的說法現在在全球戰略美國把台灣列為他的準盟有關係整個東亞建構整個"},{"start":8530.005,"end":8551.691,"text":"戰隊的關係 台灣是跟他站在同一隊所以他對我們當然也會有比較客氣一點啦好 那最後在剩下兩分鐘我問一個問題啊剛剛有委員提到 我覺得那個也有點道理啦有一個名詞叫地方創生 你知道嗎這個從日本過來的他就因為在地方本來他們人口很多後來一直外流 因為全球都都市化嘛"},{"start":8552.191,"end":8569.529,"text":"所以有一些鄉村或是比較淡白區的人口都外流到這個大都會那使得他地方人口一直減少地方的經濟各樣的特色都一直衰減所以希望人口回流然後希望地方的產業能夠發達把地方再重新"},{"start":8570.45,"end":8591.953,"text":"繁榮恢復起來一部分這個叫地方創生日本是這樣的概念剛剛其實也有委員提到你選擇信息用管制如果是全國一致信的時候那大都會跟剛剛講到那個蛋白區管制是一樣的那這個對於地方創生這個觀念來講是不利的因為"},{"start":8592.654,"end":8607.547,"text":"都會化這是這一百多年來全球的趨勢那如何讓原來的地方的特色能夠維持原來人口跟這個經濟區域的經濟能夠繁榮其實它有的時候反而需要鼓勵啦"},{"start":8608.448,"end":8626.419,"text":"所以剛剛有委員提到說那是不是要來考慮差別的對待在已經很都會很淡白很淡黃區的房價很高漲地區的管制跟如果今天一個年輕人我願意返鄉勿農我願意回到我的鄉下我願意在這個地方買房子"},{"start":8627.299,"end":8645.76,"text":"你如果貸款的層數全部都是一樣的那對於地方創生是最不利的事情我覺得委員講的沒有錯不過我也稍微借幾秒鐘跟委員報告當時我們的管制就只有那幾區在大都會那為什麼會變成全國"},{"start":8648.883,"end":8652.606,"text":"因為那個時候草房已經是從都會一直炒到全國都會在發燒的時候它傳染到其他的非都會區整個都在發燒的時候當然我們就會把它就整個來控管委員現在講的沒有錯如果到達某一個程度的時候我們必須要把它reverse回來對 那種我也是要跟你"},{"start":8678.184,"end":8705.593,"text":"為什麼我會提這個問題呢因為本席的故鄉是台東台東那個地方你說要多少房地產產作當初的渲染可能有啦現在的這個機會已經不大了那如果有年輕人願意返鄉那願意希望能夠在台東買一個房子來住我覺得那個管制不應該跟這個大多數地方是一樣的我覺得我非常贊同那是不是請您考慮看看將來如何調整這個政策好 謝謝"},{"start":8709.757,"end":8713.324,"text":"好謝謝秉瑞召委那主席在這邊宣布休息五分鐘"},{"start":9037.301,"end":9040.964,"text":"好我們現在開始開會請下一位資訊委員林思明委員好謝謝主席請我們央行楊總裁麻煩請中央央行楊總裁"},{"start":9066.677,"end":9066.859,"text":"總台找"},{"start":9068.647,"end":9078.835,"text":"林委員早總裁我想我國的經濟成長率是去年是高達8.63%創下15年的新高紀錄對主計總署在2月份上修今年的經濟成長率預測大概7.71%對我們央行也同步上修預測值為7.28%對利率也連發動對"},{"start":9096.889,"end":9116.48,"text":"所以請問這個總裁啊隨著現在中東戰爭的爆發看起來短期內不會結束喔是那油價持續上漲那物價連著也被帶動一直上漲喔全球停滯性的通膨恐怕會來臨啊總裁你認為經濟成長率還有您現在預估的這麼樂觀嗎"},{"start":9122.243,"end":9139.149,"text":"我跟委員報告事實上我一直認為以目前來講的話我們的經濟應該來講都是很穩健的目前還是很穩健目前還是穩健的你看看我們1月2月當然1月2月那是戰事以前的"},{"start":9141.15,"end":9156.659,"text":"那要戰事以後啦那我們就是必須要觀察它就是說觀察我們的3月我們的4月5月6月那我們3月我們做這樣的預測的時候是在3月的時候也就是說它戰爭剛好就是只有一半的時候"},{"start":9157.519,"end":9173.393,"text":"所以在很短的時間呢我們的scenario呢我們是說那個油價呢大概在全年從58.3%上漲你剛提到你大概是從3月3月中3月看的嘛 推出出來的嘛但是面對現在的情勢"},{"start":9181.88,"end":9198.825,"text":"因為我看今天的不管是媒體都大幅報導暫時會繼續升溫會帶動油價的上漲我們看股市 今天的股市今天也在下跌今天下跌了700多點所以你原來預測未來的經濟的成長動能會持續強勁向上"},{"start":9209.512,"end":9225.728,"text":"民間的消費能力與熱錢也會增加但是目前中東暫時進入第五週情勢繼續升溫大幅的推升全球的這個這個油市航運業"},{"start":9226.969,"end":9243.487,"text":"及供應鏈陷入不確定性尤其是我們的加工產業鍛煉加劇這個氦氣肥料化學品的起漲低價石油已成過去世全球面臨停滯性的通膨風暴"},{"start":9244.948,"end":9263.075,"text":"經濟學者與金融機構高度擔憂啊油市供應遭遇的兩大壓力啊會遭遇兩大壓力啊就是那個荷姆治海峽被封鎖所以經濟的加速成長是無望的目前的局勢的演變是這樣所以央行"},{"start":9264.736,"end":9285.149,"text":"您怎麼能夠這個到目前為止還該總裁我聽你講好像你還是講很樂觀我們也不是說很樂觀我們是審慎樂觀但是呢 我想我們也不會就是說我們的這個情境的分析就一直停留在這個 85塊"},{"start":9287.45,"end":9307.442,"text":"那如果說就像委員現在戰爭好像也不是說很短時間就會結束啦而且油價可能會上升所以這個都是在我們關注的主題當中是啦 那個總來說你應該提到嘛一定要審慎的去因應是是是沒有錯沒有錯 看起來就是持續在升溫短期沒有那麼快結束嘛對對對"},{"start":9315.166,"end":9339.586,"text":"我們看到伊朗對於中東能源基礎設施的攻擊使得波斯灣石油、天然氣以及其他重要的原物料出口受阻荷莫斯海峽是全球能源運輸的關鍵通道所以它現在被封閉起來不僅推高能源價格也提高企業生產的成本抑制消費需求尤其是非必要支出"},{"start":9340.747,"end":9367.734,"text":"進而拖累了經濟的成長甚至可能引發衰退同時同盟的壓力升溫使得各國央行被迫放棄降息計畫甚至轉向升息加劇經濟壓力蘇總裁請教你央行未來是否也會適度的跟各國的央行一樣因應中東的戰事去採取升息的措施"},{"start":9370.617,"end":9384.602,"text":"我在我們的記者會裡就是說李監事會完之後的記者會裡面我也有同樣的就是說中央銀行目前的態度是比較朝向緊縮的一個態度緊縮對緊縮的態度還是繼續動展"},{"start":9387.843,"end":9391.008,"text":"那繼續緊縮所以要傾向了但是採取緊縮的一個政策這個現在還不是時候是"},{"start":9403.384,"end":9427.232,"text":"目前這個情勢那麼緊張啊通膨的壓力一直來所以也就是說我們focus的是1.8%1.8%應該還是在我們融整的範圍之內總裁我接下來跟你討論通膨風險值的問題物價穩定向來是我們各國央行尤其我們中央雲南也是最重要的核心目標"},{"start":9428.952,"end":9442.589,"text":"在中東歧視的升溫下全球經濟不確定性持續升高預測短期的通膨風險掌握驅動物價變動的關鍵因素已成為我們貨幣政策的重要課題"},{"start":9444.071,"end":9470.72,"text":"因此本席看到央行最新的研究指出未來可建構通膨風險值作為輔助工具從整體的分布角度分析未來通膨可能的區間與發生的機率有助提升貨幣政策判斷的精準度與簡單性所以請問這個總裁通膨呈現高度不確定甚至具有跳躍式的上升風險"},{"start":9472.261,"end":9476.572,"text":"這個時候還能用平均數來決策嗎會不會有落後現實的情況"},{"start":9478.099,"end":9505.667,"text":"我跟委員報告事實上您說的也沒有錯因為現在現在大部分現在大部分都是用那個什麼都是用一個平均數就是都是用一個不是說基本就像說我們58.3把它提升到85那如果說把這個概念放進去的時候呢這個就是一個機率的分配的一個問題"},{"start":9506.967,"end":9532.67,"text":"那也就是說最差的一個scenario可能是100那最佳的一個optimistic的scenario是什麼是70那這樣的話它就有一個range就是說在這一段期間可能它的通膨可能就會在這個range裡面那它所發生的機率大概是多少"},{"start":9533.712,"end":9538.459,"text":"他是把機率這個是比較科學啦比較統計統計的方法那這個是比較那這個呢我們都是正在你現在研究還在研究中嘛那是否有已經有具體的數據啊"},{"start":9548.493,"end":9577.078,"text":"因為我們說我們在最壞的環境下通膨可能是多少機率的分佈是怎樣是是是有沒有這樣的數據我們只能說我們只能說這個還在研究階段也有100的那個的scenario但是呢它的probability是到底多少因為probability啊這個可能有一部分那個總裁我是要問你啦你現在已經在走手研究了對但是你現在的研究是已經"},{"start":9578.498,"end":9596.509,"text":"已經完備沒有 我們準備把它納入我們未來的決策的階段都還沒有啦 只是一個在內的行程而已啦我想過去幾年我們全球發生最大的錯誤就是低估極端通膨的發生機率啦疫情後的通膨爆衝 到現在戰爭與能源的衝擊"},{"start":9599.731,"end":9620.269,"text":"都是典型的尾端風險成真所以目前央行的政策模型中是否有納入比如說油價暴漲的情境比如說煤桶現在可能會漲破超過150美元區域戰爭擴大全球供應鏈可能會再度中斷"},{"start":9621.73,"end":9643.799,"text":"所以我們的政策模型中有沒有納入這樣的一些情境的分析啊我想喔 委員我們也會有這樣的一個在概念上我們的我們Focus裡面也有這樣的一個概念啦但是呢我們不便在這邊講說如果說到200塊的時候250塊的時候呢它會怎麼樣怎麼樣怎麼樣"},{"start":9650.161,"end":9661.014,"text":"我覺得這個不適合在這種沒有就是說你用這種沒有發生 你是不用講出來的但是你這個模型中會納入這種情境分析吧應該會納入吧但是我們不會就說就把它公開出來的因為那個不成熟最後一題我再請教你"},{"start":9669.984,"end":9692.411,"text":"我關美國政府近期又再啟動新一輪的301條款的調查我國也被列入為調查國家之一行政院表示台美已簽署台美對登貿易協定就是ART不會受這樣調查的影響總裁我想請問你這次被列入調查名單對於未來我們台幣匯率的走向可能會有怎樣的影響"},{"start":9693.471,"end":9707.505,"text":"匯率操縱也是美國的調查終點這次我國再次被列入是否表示對美國而言仍然認為我們可能有事在操縱匯率不會啦我跟委員報告絕對不會所以也不會影響我們台美對待貿易的協定也不會影響"},{"start":9715.733,"end":9739.575,"text":"就是他即便我們被進入這個沒有就匯率的這個部分呢這個匯率的部分是我們跟財政部而且匯率的這個部分不是商務部的所管轄的範圍而是財政部管轄的範圍我們是跟財政部一個溝通我也跟委員報告我們歷年以來"},{"start":9740.376,"end":9749.499,"text":"跟美國財政部的溝通都非常的順利謝謝林委員下一位質詢委員請閻寬恆委員質詢謝謝主席主席有請我們央行楊總裁請央行楊總裁"},{"start":9775.989,"end":9793.3,"text":"首先先跟你探討利率的問題中東戰爭打到現在已經快一個月了但是依舊沒有緩和的趨勢國際油價一度飆漲甚至於創了四年來的新高同時也帶動了食品跟糧食價格的飆漲"},{"start":9794.561,"end":9821.568,"text":"所以引發了市場擔憂那除了擔心中東戰勢升溫那也怕會出現通膨升高經濟成長減緩的停滯性通膨的問題那雖然目前全球央行就是美國加拿大日本英格蘭歐洲等他們接續做出維持利率不變的決定但同時對未來通膨升溫也提出警告"},{"start":9822.228,"end":9839.99,"text":"那你們有建構一個通膨風險值作為觀察通膨的一個補充指標那將有助於央行依照這個預測結果那請教一下目前預測的結果是怎麼樣 可不可以說明一下"},{"start":9841.738,"end":9857.185,"text":"現在還是在研究當中不過這個概念我們以前我們都有只是說沒有到目前為止還沒有一個具體化而且全球的中央銀行很少數的國家除了英國 英國我知道"},{"start":9857.765,"end":9861.066,"text":"英國的通膨的scenario的分析就有點類似我們現在所講的IMF的風險值的概念"},{"start":9874.373,"end":9891.931,"text":"不過到目前為止呢我們有以前基本上我們以前就有這個概念只是說我們再深入再探討它只是說到目前為止我們還沒有就是說有做這樣的就像英國的這樣的一個上行的一個range的一個預測到目前為止我們還沒有"},{"start":9894.314,"end":9914.952,"text":"還沒有做完一個完整的報告還沒有不過我也跟委員報告事實上雖然就是說這個也是一個學術探討的一個主題不過我以前我對英國的這種它的一個預測方法我也不會覺得就是說是非常的先進"},{"start":9916.448,"end":9929.094,"text":"我也不會認為它是很先進台灣作為一個小型開放的經濟體是那挑戰跟應對措施需要考核綜合考量多方面的因素是尤其是中東戰爭還有能源飆漲的問題"},{"start":9931.815,"end":9950.579,"text":"那我們是一個高度依賴進口能源的一個開放型的經濟體對 沒有錯那命名的一個嚴峻的挑戰尤其是能源跟海運的成本對那對台灣的經濟成長跟民生造成了絕對的壓力對所以央行在這一塊你要面對這一些挑戰對那"},{"start":9953.36,"end":9976.556,"text":"是否會選擇升息或者是用升息來應對持續的物價壓力我跟委員報告就是說對於台灣目前中東所產生的原物料價格的上漲事實上一方面政府的穩定措施是有效的 我覺得"},{"start":9977.276,"end":9997.797,"text":"另外一方面中央銀行必須要做的第一個我們要阻止防止這個輸入性的通膨的問題的疑慮這是第一個就是說那所謂的要防止這個輸入性通膨的一個壓力的話呢第一個我們的匯率一定要穩定這個是中央銀行這是我們的職責"},{"start":9999.238,"end":10022.17,"text":"輸入型通貨因為油價高你又匯率如果說大幅貶值的話就雪上加霜這是第一個點那第二點呢你剛剛所講的利率的問題利率呢是屬於需求面的一個控管的一個工具在供給面的一個問題上呢用需求面去解決它比較不方便比較不好但是呢"},{"start":10022.87,"end":10040.704,"text":"他在第二輪也就是說在通膨的一個預期在上升的時候呢也就是說通膨的預期在形成的時候呢總理必須要注意除了我們的匯率的政策以外呢我們的利率政策也必須要stand by我們就是要必須要準備在那邊這個就是說為什麼"},{"start":10043.706,"end":10063.314,"text":"全球的中央銀行對這一次的一個中東的戰爭他們的態度從以前的一個寬鬆的態度變成現在是要緊縮的態度台灣的中央銀行也是一樣的我們是要stand by就是在適當的時機我們的貨幣政策我們的利率政策也必須要做政策我們長期的觀察銀行在貨幣操作上"},{"start":10071.758,"end":10097.012,"text":"是採這個非對稱性的嘛就是俗稱的說這個匯率政策這個生不足貶阻擋的阻生不足貶所以說當新台幣有升值壓力的時候那我們央行會積極的干預為了要保護我們這些出口業嘛出口產業但是當面對貶值所引發的我們的進口通膨干預力道就相對保守"},{"start":10097.392,"end":10127.032,"text":"所以您從A30一直到現在A30不過委員你講這個的時候啊我才要再藉這個機會跟委員報告事實上呢市面上這種政說法呢是完全完全他沒有那個什麼實務上的一個實務上的一個實務上的一個一個一個一個就是說實務上他不知道實務上中央銀行是怎麼運作的"},{"start":10127.592,"end":10143.529,"text":"所以說中央銀行主生不足貶這個確實在實務上是說不通的在理論上是好像在市場上好像很容易接受就是說主生不足貶現在美台利差持續擴大所以台幣貶值壓力很大"},{"start":10148.774,"end":10166.125,"text":"那這種偏弱所以說我們現在央行持續這種偏弱貨幣的一個隱性政策那你一手中央銀行沒有中央銀行沒有我們一手就是說要控制通膨嘛但另外你就放任匯率貶值沒有放任啊所以要積極的作為啊積極的作為"},{"start":10172.348,"end":10191.151,"text":"也是說建議啦 建議總裁 是不是我們要用力說來放棄 也不是放棄整個考量 是不是說出口利率的考量跟讓我們匯率適度的升值來抵消我們國際聯運漲價的這樣子的壓力我跟委員報告啦"},{"start":10191.771,"end":10202.583,"text":"就是說在三月以後啊在三月以後啊就是說美元獨強那美元獨強的意思是什麼所有的貨幣都對美元都貶值"},{"start":10204.516,"end":10230.499,"text":"都對美元貶值那好那如果說所有貨幣都對美元貶值的時候呢中央銀行就是說新台幣呢他在這個貶值的過程當中只要我們中央銀行的新台幣貶值的幅度低於我們就是說鄰近的國家像韓國跟日本如果說我們他貶值的幅度比我們大的話那表示什麼表示新台幣也是升值啊"},{"start":10232.27,"end":10252.31,"text":"是不是因為相對的 相對的 這是相對的每年獨搶的情況之下因為時間有限 我再請教那19日舉行第一季禮監事會然後這個將全國資安人的第二戶購入貸款 乘數由五成調升到六成"},{"start":10253.231,"end":10281.583,"text":"那這樣子一個這個維福的放寬信任管制是不是因為央行已經預見了這個房市已經緩和的這個這樣子的情況嗎是這樣子嗎你可以監督回答我想有兩個第一個就是說我們在我們的選擇信任管制到目前我們也有得到一些的成效但是這個成效是不是符合我們我們是不是我們完全滿足"},{"start":10282.563,"end":10291.629,"text":"不見得啦這是第一個就是說我有一定的成效第二個呢我們最主要的就是說對於第二副那些他是自助的"},{"start":10292.608,"end":10314.068,"text":"他是自住的那你要滿足他的一個需求對於那個自住的話我想我們跟他限制的太嚴格的話也不必要總算你在媒體上有回應說這一次的放寬就是為了要回應父女幫兒女買房的需求那是強調說是針對自住"},{"start":10316.77,"end":10329.517,"text":"那但是現在房價依然是高掛在那邊那新成一的價格持續在上漲我們選在這個年八季這個凍息的同時來放寬這個新的管制那"},{"start":10331.069,"end":10358.109,"text":"我想這個訊號會不會給我們這些建商或者是投機客來把它解釋成說成是我們央行是變成說支持房價這樣子的一個作為一個政策我們要如何保證這一層的鬆綁不會變成推升房價的一個兇手"},{"start":10359.45,"end":10361.193,"text":"所以我們也一直在強調我們這一次的鬆綁是一個微調"},{"start":10367.839,"end":10393.367,"text":"是一個微調所以呢也就是說微調所以呢我們呢非常的謹慎我們也不希望就是說場上那個什麼我們的市場謝謝總裁我們就務必說要盯緊市場不要讓政策變成投機客的工具讓我們最終希望讓房價能夠回到這個回歸合理的一個市場基礎沒有錯謝謝總裁謝謝原委員"},{"start":10397.888,"end":10400.468,"text":"下一位諮詢委員 請羅明財委員諮詢主席 各位委員 朱列席 官員 大家好可否請央行 楊總裁"},{"start":10428.63,"end":10436.674,"text":"還有是不是中央印製廠林總請中央印製廠林總經理林總經理總裁你好那個外匯存底是"},{"start":10449.394,"end":10460.064,"text":"很高啊 是不是一個秀肌肉的好機會我們沒有這個意思我們發現說我們外匯存體持續在高升可是為什麼全世界很多國家外匯存體不升還減"},{"start":10478.215,"end":10494.292,"text":"有的國家的外匯存底不升還減也有一些的國家是確實是因為因為他的資金流出去太多第二個呢他的外匯存底投資的成效不夠好"},{"start":10497.207,"end":10522.281,"text":"黃金跟我們的儲備是這樣有不同的幣別黃金等等大概這五年前到現在產生了若干的變化很多人看在買黃金你看全世界我們講這五年來黃金購入買最多的是哪幾個國家"},{"start":10524.491,"end":10545.731,"text":"大概是Russia跟中國大陸的中國大陸跟Russia德國有沒有買?沒有,德國沒有買,美國沒有買,英國也沒有買這些先進的國家都沒有買,日本也沒有買法國好像也沒有買南韓?"},{"start":10546.852,"end":10570.02,"text":"南韓沒有買最近沒有買好像他前一波有買他前一波的時候有買不過那一次他買的時候據我了解他買的時候是低但是他有上漲但是後來下來他嚇了一跳"},{"start":10571.451,"end":10596.353,"text":"結果後來他就不敢買但是後來黃金的價格一直上去黃金漲了那麼多央行有沒有買我們沒有買我們跟其他主要的國家來比較的時候我們都沒有買所以總裁你對美元是不是有很大的信心"},{"start":10599.994,"end":10622.053,"text":"也不是說我對美元有特別的信心所以對它沒信心那也不是說對它沒有信心我們是比較了各個幣別來講的話相對的那也不是說因為我們對美元有絕對的信心然後我們的外匯存底美元的部位才會比較大不過我跟委員報告了"},{"start":10622.85,"end":10646.092,"text":"我們的進出口廠商百分之九十到九十五它的報價都是用什麼它都是用美元那如果說在這種它的報價都是在百分之九十到九十五都是用美元來報價的時候呢那我們的外匯存體是不是也要因應它那所以呢如果說我們把它降到百分之八十"},{"start":10647.217,"end":10673.189,"text":"你也不能就說我們對美元特別有信心這是第一點也就是說我們的進出口廠商他大部分的報價都是用美元的時候那當然我們的存底就是以美元為主這是第一點第二點以整個全球的一個貨幣制度來看的話呢美元他就是共同的貨幣現在全世界你的說法最強就是美元"},{"start":10674.049,"end":10691.344,"text":"所以我們外匯存體持有美元的比重也很高啊那當然啊我剛剛在說第一個我們的進出口廠商的報價大部分90%到95%都是用美元啊那我看你也很聰明啊你美元大概我們持有有沒有65%什麼"},{"start":10693.82,"end":10704.292,"text":"美元的持有 佔我們的外匯存底有沒有65%應該有有沒有接近七成應該有有啊 現在比重又變高了應該有啊"},{"start":10706.402,"end":10732.665,"text":"那占七成那其他百分之三十是什麼這就我們diversify啊我們把它那個多元化第二比重最高的就是持有人民幣啊第二比重的話我們要看情況啦就是看昨天的情況啊我們就要看情況有的時候是歐元有些時候人民幣有些時候是其他的貨幣"},{"start":10734.594,"end":10758.505,"text":"為什麼你會想持有人民幣因為我跟委員報告啦人民幣是因為我們台灣跟跟中國大陸的一個貿易呢他的這個要清算的時候呢人民幣就是本身他就因為我們跟他的貿易很大所以也就是說我們也必須要握有部分的人民幣作為"},{"start":10759.565,"end":10783.25,"text":"我們的廠商跟中國大陸的一個廠商的清算人民幣的持有有沒有佔百分之五上上下下那Range大概多少Range有沒有超過3%我現在忘了啦 待會底下的時候我再告訴你我跟委員報告你會不會再加持人民幣"},{"start":10784.77,"end":10799.885,"text":"你會不會再增加持有人民幣我跟委員報告人民幣以前我們會多持有它有兩個因素第一個因素就是說我們跟中國大陸的一個貿易的往來大"},{"start":10800.526,"end":10816.146,"text":"而且我們的廠商有一些它的收支有一部分是用人民幣 這是第一點第二點 當時的人民幣的利率非常高好像甚至都比美銀高"},{"start":10817.447,"end":10831.397,"text":"所以在這種情況之下我們都有一個比重就是歐元人民幣後來就下降下來為什麼會下降下來現在下降多少下降下來我現在不太曉得今天有沒有剩大概5%"},{"start":10832.998,"end":10848.348,"text":"應該是低一點歐元的持有大概有多少歐元的持有也大概是差不多我們大部分第二個就是說我們第二個幣幣我同事告訴我我們第二個幣幣就是歐元第二個是歐元第三個是人民幣第四個"},{"start":10850.409,"end":10858.174,"text":"我們第四個的話就是說英鎊、澳幣、日元這些都是有加幣也有也蠻多元化的啦你會不會考慮說現在全世界變化很快美伊戰爭、俄烏戰爭打完以後"},{"start":10877.762,"end":10900.907,"text":"美金會不會變弱?因為全世界都在贊成啊這個委員做這樣的一個預測我記得啊不知道對不對我記得啊就是說去年初去年初或是去年中以後大家就說美國要降息所以美元都會弱但是呢好像也沒有這麼一回事"},{"start":10903.488,"end":10917.937,"text":"從最近來看的話它的指數呢是降到96但是最近都又跑到100以上所以呢我跟委員報告啦匯率的預測很難啦你要在這邊叫我來預測說美元會強啊會弱啊誰知道美元發行的基礎它是用"},{"start":10927.41,"end":10947.444,"text":"黃金來做發行準備對不對也不是那美國發行美金是用什麼做準備我跟委員報告等一下 那我們新台幣的發行是用什麼來做準備我們是用黃金做準備黃金還有我們的外存底黃金很好啦 因為一閃一閃亮晶晶黃金有多少噸我們黃金有480幾噸"},{"start":10953.7,"end":10960.068,"text":"423噸好像是一個護國神山我們台幣的護國神山有沒有減少我們沒有減少有沒有增加沒有增加"},{"start":10972.282,"end":10987.258,"text":"我們手上都是美金美債那你會不會考慮說萬一萬一美元來一天因為走強以後就必定會走弱嘛你會不會把手上"},{"start":10987.939,"end":11001.211,"text":"的外匯存底來轉化來買一些黃金我們也有考慮只是說現在有考慮還沒做是還沒有做而已考慮那個點大概什麼時候會做我怎麼會曉得只是說我們認為"},{"start":11004.053,"end":11017.803,"text":"我們認為就是說我們覺得是一個很好的時機是很好的時點的時候呢中央銀行會進去我從來沒有聽過你講這句話但是我跟委員報告黃金貴不貴黃金貴不貴以現在來講的話我總覺得它是貴現在貴喔所以你覺得現在貴貴與不貴事實上跟現在我們都是靠美金美元可是"},{"start":11034.034,"end":11060.844,"text":"總裁啊美國他的黃金儲備啊他黃金還在不在啊他在啊你有見過嗎我看過啊你到哪裡看的我看過我在美國看的美國有四個地方你在哪個地方看到我在紐約看的紐約紐約他是因為聯邦銀行的這個說黃金放那邊嗎對啦那個不是最大宗對啦最大宗是在肯特基吧"},{"start":11062.686,"end":11077.103,"text":"這個我就不曉得啦反正我看過啦肯特基那個量是最大的連那個川普啊他Elon Musk上去的時候說50年沒人去看過黃金木曉還在不在是啦 應該在啦應該在喔"},{"start":11079.947,"end":11096.279,"text":"眼見為憑 改天你可不可以帶我們去看一下我想中央銀行 全球的中央銀行都是很謹慎的啦所以你們懷疑中央銀行黃金還在不在啊那當然在啊我們台灣的我應該覺得我有去看過啦我們這個主席也去看過"},{"start":11097.318,"end":11118.528,"text":"可是美國的我沒去看過啊總裁你也沒看過啊不過我將心比心啦中央銀行都是很優勝的啦謝謝榮民財委員那個總裁最後一句話萬一如果去看黃金不在對美元會產生什麼樣的變化下期分解下次再跟我說這個機率是零啦好 謝謝"},{"start":11123.9,"end":11132.788,"text":"我因為對他們非常有信心所以我在財政委員會14年了但是我沒有去過他們新店文員來 下一個諮詢委員請陳玉珍委員質詢謝謝主席 我們請央行總裁請中央醫療的央行總裁"},{"start":11147.348,"end":11149.569,"text":"我們現在預計就是說我們五個面額我們現在是初步"},{"start":11165.214,"end":11189.392,"text":"初步我們也聽聽那個諮詢委員的一個意見初步他們也認為就是說五個面額多改版應該沒有問題五個面額喔你說紙幣喔 兩千啊 一千啊那硬幣不改版兩千 一千兩千 一千 五百 兩百 一百五個面額全面要改喔對 因為我跟委員報告"},{"start":11192.154,"end":11219.566,"text":"要花多少錢要花多少錢多少預算我們這樣的話呢每張大概成本會增加1.5塊總共要花多少預算這個還不曉得大概有沒有個Range沒有沒有是指三千萬五千萬因為有時候網路流量很大的因為現在總量是什麼樣都還不曉得所以你沒有一個預算嗎改版沒有一個預算嗎三千萬五千萬三億五億三十億五十億我們還沒有編預算三百億五百億你有沒有一個概念"},{"start":11220.487,"end":11227.353,"text":"有概念嗎我想我這個謹慎一點大概 哪個範圍100億到500億1億到500億我一講的時候到時候又順順不是 你沒有概念怎麼要那個什麼要改本要花那麼多錢然後就又再做文章來 這個第一個你心裡要有概念嗎我認為這是適當的沒有 你如果打算要做你要知道"},{"start":11241.947,"end":11270.382,"text":"沒關係 這個還沒嘛到時候反正要提出來啦對對對第二個那個內容我看到前一陣子有在做什麼調查什麼的那我們國家是中華民國對吧中華民國就有台澎金嘛對不對 台澎金嘛台澎金嘛對不對 台澎金嘛你們做改版不只做防衛技術還要重新定義喔這個台澎金嘛所以代表台澎金嘛沒有啦 我們就中華民國就好了有台灣嘛 有台灣島的一些東西啦"},{"start":11271.102,"end":11294.891,"text":"那個金門的這個意象你看一下立豪豐富金門的閩南燕尾建築這些東西要跟我們思考一下這是金門的台澎金馬嘛不要只注意台灣有什麼東西不要只注意台灣島有什麼東西離島不要忘記我們是生命共同體我們是一個國家嘛"},{"start":11296.471,"end":11314.035,"text":"這個金門的水灘也很漂亮對啊我都沒有看你們選項裡面有這些東西啊全部都是台灣的一些對不對來看你有些什麼你們票選嘛有19萬人民去票選島與生態這個島這個圖上面沒有看到我們的島啊我的島在哪裡我們金門在哪裡"},{"start":11316.936,"end":11338.491,"text":"對吧 保育都有民族結晶這個還有一點感覺你做這個到時候不要改版出來那個地圖那個新台幣改版只剩下一個台灣島澎湖金門馬祖都不見了中華民國啊 台澎金嘛我希望這個央行要幫我們審慎的這個注意這一點你看你們現在的這個"},{"start":11340.761,"end":11358.309,"text":"這個地圖上你們打算做這個以後的新台幣只有台灣島沒有離島沒有金門沒有馬祖有澎湖啦整個設計都是台灣島101啊什麼地質我們都沒有啊我們有那個水灘啊"},{"start":11359.509,"end":11382.314,"text":"是不是你要讓我們離島覺得說我們真的是同一個生命共同體嘛如果加一點點離島的元素可以嗎那馬祖的意向在哪裡金門的意向在哪裡是不是要幫我們思考一下不然難道以後我們台幣上面都要印的跟以前一樣現金門地區使用你們這個現台灣地區使用你知道我們金門以前的紙鈔啊你知道嗎我知道啊"},{"start":11385.595,"end":11410.461,"text":"什麼寫 限金門必須使用我知道啊所以金門也出現了所以金門也出現了就金門兩個那你後來要印新的改版後要再印出限金門必須使用沒有嘛對不對 那個以前戰略中的時代所以我們希望你們在考慮這個新的改版的時候一定要把離島考慮進去我們也有很多意向嘛那我們才會覺得我們是生命共同體嘛對不對 不要只有台灣的與會台灣島的與會嘛好嗎"},{"start":11413.443,"end":11431.703,"text":"請你幫我們慎重考慮我們有水撻、有保育、有生態我們有麗河豐湖你們那個是地質什麼我們是麗河豐湖我們有銀城房我們有閩南的建築非常好看這個一定要記得共同的這個概念"},{"start":11435.867,"end":11451.602,"text":"這我的助理弄出來的澎湖的玄武岩啊這個馬祖的藍眼淚啊金門的這個水撻這樣是不是把台澎金馬都加進去請你考慮領導人的這個想法展現中華民國是有台澎金馬才可以"},{"start":11452.362,"end":11455.605,"text":"才不會讓李導覺得這個我們現在請財經公司 請慎重考慮考慮李導人的想法才不會覺得所有東西我們都好像沒有被畫在一起來 財經公司 謝謝"},{"start":11470.614,"end":11489.299,"text":"董事長 我們這裡面要去考察貴公司要去考慮智慧金門的事情 數位振興以前發行資本券有很多高行政成本 場所受限 房位各方面現在走向數位經濟"},{"start":11492.1,"end":11502.273,"text":"有很多的好處那我要跟您探討一下請您這個我現在講這些想跟您探討那當然禮拜四的時候也希望 歡迎喔可以幫我們做相關的這個研究現在你們有這個TWQR嘛 台灣碼嘛"},{"start":11507.339,"end":11523.95,"text":"一碼通 對吧我看這個做得不錯就是有可以讓 而且有讓商家升級那我看財政部也有說如果用電子支付的話數位支付的話可能在稅的方面 在小額商家的 小的小規模營業額上面可以給一點這個"},{"start":11525.671,"end":11546.605,"text":"稅務上的優惠但是這時候後面的你們這個系統就相當重要了那當然如果用電子稅務支付的話會有很多很多好處那我來跟你講一下金門現在的情形我們金門現在有很多社會的福利社會福利就包括您看一下包括觀光"},{"start":11550.908,"end":11561.656,"text":"這個金門希望以後要做這個數位券我們現在有券嘛 你知道我們金門有很多的券我們有感恩券 就配酒的酒券 就是三結酒都有那個 您知道嗎"},{"start":11563.683,"end":11566.005,"text":"55歲到64歲我們每一年會發三萬六千元每一節都會發錢每一節都還會"},{"start":11579.221,"end":11596.1,"text":"配壽酒是賣的但是用酒券然後還有當然基本上很多社會福利措施不管這個那個各方面的非常多的社會福利措施這個從現在開始講到下午可能講不完但是這個東西要走向數位化所以我們希望"},{"start":11597.401,"end":11601.823,"text":"藉由我們財經公司的專業人力幫我們做一個整合的數位平台我們有醫療長照的補貼我們有交通觀光基本有交通觀光的補貼像台灣在講這個什麼營養午餐免費我們30年前就可以做了還有我們有公車免費 船免費兩塊 沒有免費 保險"},{"start":11616.83,"end":11637.307,"text":"還有各式各樣的補貼 交通 敬老的津貼比如說一百多歲領七千 九千 救學每一個學期 學生都發交通券 圖書券然後感恩券 就是這個酒 還有預算我們希望財經公司可以幫我們思考一下後面整個這個部分"},{"start":11638.027,"end":11663.205,"text":"那金門是一個很好實驗這個數位化的地方您知道我的意思嗎那你們做這麼多 財經這個公司做這麼多研究那我感覺上在現在台灣整個普遍市面上好像也沒有用的很普遍啦就是有 但是還不夠普遍那是不是在這個部分 財經公司可以特別幫忙思考一下事實上你可以做一個類似一個實驗的地方"},{"start":11664.886,"end":11689.599,"text":"是 我們再跟委員請教我們對金門的這個如果要發這個券的話怎麼跟我們的數位這個平台結合然後做一個研究對 因為各式各樣的政府的支出給民間在來的福利不管是哪一類的福利因為政府本身就註下了很多資源在這個裡頭然後民間普遍不管食衣住行方面以後說不定還更多"},{"start":11690.379,"end":11704.813,"text":"這些方面如果有這個讓它導入數位化然後地區的金門地區的商家從這邊開始實驗我想財經公司是可以扮演一個很重要的角色你們可以幫我幫我們金門做個相關的研究嗎"},{"start":11705.653,"end":11724.879,"text":"是的因為本身也很有基礎的嘛是是是那我們禮拜四去考察的時候可能會麻煩這個相關的這個準備包括後端還有包括可能遇到什麼問題啊然後怎麼樣包括你看消費上然後請款上面管理上面民眾好消費商家好請款政府好管理這個"},{"start":11726.619,"end":11739.747,"text":"研究出來後也來跟我們地方政府來做一個對接啦這個也可以讓財經公司扮演一個蠻重要的角色沒問題吧我們禮拜四過去考察的時候麻煩提出相關的報告啦好 謝謝您好 謝謝下一位質詢委員請王世堅委員質詢"},{"start":11759.694,"end":11763.523,"text":"謝謝主席,我請央行楊總裁請坐,央行楊總裁"},{"start":11770.146,"end":11795.826,"text":"楊總裁辛苦了謝謝你鼓勵尤其這幾年來你堅持一些看法堅持你們專業的分析你們對於房市的管制一直都持著很嚴謹的態度並沒有妥協這一點社會大眾對你是非常肯定也感謝的"},{"start":11796.667,"end":11814.568,"text":"只是我最近有一事不解也是關於房市的問題前年啊你那時候是有動作先機當時你針對不動產放款的集中度來做管制這是對的"},{"start":11817.85,"end":11824.633,"text":"前年六月當時不動產放款集中度是高達37.61%那當時你就開始宣布要管制目標是35%這也都很正確很好"},{"start":11835.999,"end":11860.679,"text":"那到了這個去年的9月去年的9月是已經降到36.71所以我們仍然繼續管制這個多好但是啊到了這個去年12月底貴航第四季的禮監事會議的時候當時就鬆綁了集中度的管制當時是"},{"start":11863.274,"end":11885.862,"text":"降0.01而已當時是從36.71降到36.7結果只降0.01那你們突然間就把這個管制就放鬆了那尤其在今年十天前十天前你們第一季的禮監事會的時候你們竟然是說要放寬"},{"start":11887.683,"end":11911.578,"text":"自然人第二戶購屋貸款放寬從五成放寬到六成這一點我就百思不解啦這一點我就不解現在我們房屋放款的集中度並沒有再大幅下降啊離目標35%也還一段距離為什麼在此時此刻放寬"},{"start":11912.719,"end":11928.767,"text":"而且放寬這個第二戶齁那個總裁應該你也曉得啊第二戶會購買第二戶以後甚至第二戶以上好幾戶的大多數都是投資客"},{"start":11929.824,"end":11947.791,"text":"那我們如果放寬第二戶房貸的限制的話等於就是也放寬了讓投資客他們可以繼續去藉由炒作去獲利去炒高房價那我為什麼這麼不懂"},{"start":11949.249,"end":11963.442,"text":"除了房屋放款的集中度以外集中度沒有降跟現在民眾的感覺也都息息相關我就舉這幾個大筆的比方說我就舉三大好了"},{"start":11965.126,"end":11974.589,"text":"購屋痛苦指數好了購屋痛苦指數在我們台灣在我們國內台北市最高他超過60%高達65.41新北市其次56.77痛苦指數台中也破50%"},{"start":11987.637,"end":12009.561,"text":"那在購屋痛苦指數依然居高之下第二點房價所得比房價所得比竟然平均平均國內房價所得比9.71啦9.71倍也就是說不吃不喝要9.71年才有辦法來買房子那第三"},{"start":12016.738,"end":12041.432,"text":"就是房貸負擔率房貸負擔率我們多數國人把整個家庭收入啊比方說在台北市的部分有將近七成房貸負擔率將近七成高達七成之多全國平均房貸的負擔率是42%這都很高啊"},{"start":12045.571,"end":12066.376,"text":"大家辛苦工作所得 結果都成了烏奴啦都成了烏奴所以在這三大面向的分析之下都是全民感受得到的痛苦之下結果我們突然間3月份好不容易堅持這麼久的"},{"start":12068.257,"end":12091.594,"text":"根據這個我們這麼久的這個根據這個房市的管制結果這次鬆綁了 你看法為什麼為什麼是 我覺得那個委員的分析都非常的正確至於就是說要我們來說一個理由我想我很簡單的 第一個就是說"},{"start":12095.978,"end":12105.247,"text":"37.6%下降到36%這個是也有一定的成效了當然剛剛委員是說我們的目標是35%不過我們也沒有對外講究說我們的目標就是一定35%"},{"start":12113.394,"end":12139.885,"text":"這要看情況啦不過呢35就是說是從你的圖形上看上去的話35是確實是從低點往上的嘛所以呢我想36到目前為止我們只有說我們有一定的成效我們沒有說我們很滿意這是第一點第二點呢我們之所以會放我們就是說一定的成效第二點我們為什麼會放寬第二戶最主要的就是說"},{"start":12140.825,"end":12156.75,"text":"我們剛剛委員分析的也沒有非常正確就是說第一戶跟第二戶是草房的最大最大宗嘛那第一戶呢在第一戶跟第二戶裡面呢是第一戶的草房的比重更大"},{"start":12157.847,"end":12183.83,"text":"第二戶草房的比重比較小根據我們的資訊第一戶的草房的大概是七成第二戶的大概是兩成最多兩成我記得是15%到20%這是第二個第三個就是說在我們管制的這一段期間裡面第二戶下降的速度非常快"},{"start":12184.79,"end":12195.659,"text":"它下降會速度非常快所以呢也就是說是從從多少呢從這個從它是減少了跟同期間是從它是減少了分別為24.7 18.3你說集中度減少"},{"start":12204.386,"end":12228.409,"text":"不是 就是說第二戶的減少 減少的幅度非常大第二戶的減少的幅度非常大他減少了多少呢 減少了8.6跟6.5那我們是覺得就是說 以草房的七成 大部分是說第一戶那第二戶呢 他只有占15%到20%那但是呢 他下降的速度比較快"},{"start":12229.17,"end":12245.975,"text":"那我們是覺得就是說如果我們因為第三個就是說他對第二戶呢就是說他是自住的那我是總覺得這個自住我們如果說微調的話呢對於整個我們的管制的那個的impact應該是不會有多大的影響"},{"start":12246.835,"end":12263.1,"text":"你認為說不會太大影響這個我們尊重但是你剛剛講它第二戶構設的我們放寬但是你說它是自住自住這一點我希望在這一個部分我們可以加強去稽查去瞭解可以透過銀行去瞭解"},{"start":12266.721,"end":12290.252,"text":"至於你說的第一戶的炒房率遠高於第二戶這個當然我們再研究一下啦你們可能那邊有研究的我看的資料我自己分析的是沒有差那麼多啦可能就是建商因為他們會現在大舉的用這個公司的人頭戶去把這個"},{"start":12294.283,"end":12309.551,"text":"他們當初的土榮建榮要轉成分屋貸款這可能也是個原因啦要不然往往都是第二戶投資客最多啦我第二個問題要請教你的就是關於我們這個主權基金主權基金"},{"start":12318.335,"end":12321.078,"text":"你支持還是不支持就是說如果"},{"start":12344.474,"end":12361.187,"text":"我們不用外匯那改用其他這兩種管道財政部發特定的公債那這個稅收我們用財政盈餘來做主權基金那這樣你支不支持我當然我也支持啊"},{"start":12361.747,"end":12389.473,"text":"也是支持我也是支持在我看我是認為我們一定要用外匯存底當作基底我想總裁你也應該心知肚明這是我們國家最大筆的來源也最穩定鄰近的國家韓國 馬來西亞 香港他們都是所以我希望說是不是再來你針對說要有長波用要有一定"},{"start":12390.553,"end":12412.909,"text":"固定一個利潤以上才肯那你再研究一下要怎麼樣的利潤才肯因為我們大家把話挑明尤其中央銀行你帶頭財政部、經濟部、金管會跟隨之下我們趕快來促成主權基金好不好因為主權基金我們到現在為止我們台灣確實有點慢了應該要積極下去推動落實好不好好 謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":12421.212,"end":12449.629,"text":"再來下一位諮詢人員請葛如君委員質詢好 謝謝主席有請央行楊總裁請中央央行楊總裁"},{"start":12455.053,"end":12470.618,"text":"總裁早首先要感謝央行在去年底提供給我們比特幣是否作為央行儲備資產有一份正反並程的報告這一點我們真的是要給你肯定裡面有提到捷克央行已經投入100萬美元來購買加密資產"},{"start":12472.899,"end":12493.396,"text":"同時我們也感謝行政院感謝法務部也協助我們調查了我們沒收扣押的比特幣台灣目前大概為止大概210顆目前已經可以排到全球將近前十的一個狀態雖然那個東西跟資產還有儲備還是有很長的距離但是我想我們開始理解這件事情是健康的"},{"start":12494.156,"end":12510.907,"text":"各國其實非常關注這個也跟總裁介紹一下這是美國的參議員的幕僚辦公室的同仁之後去建立的一個比特幣戰略儲備的智庫所建立的台灣應該考量比特幣戰略儲備的一份報告"},{"start":12512.688,"end":12531.735,"text":"那這個之後我們有機會再分享給總裁裡面說台灣相當適合持有一定程度量的比特幣原因在於我們的地緣政治的環境無論可能是要面對海上的封鎖或者全面的入侵的情況之下相較於純正的美元跟黃金比特幣"},{"start":12532.395,"end":12559.623,"text":"是唯一一個可以在兩種情況下都完全可以存取的狀態使得世界上已經有40個以上的國家透過不同的方式來持有比特幣美國薩爾瓦多已經建立戰略儲備不單俄羅斯透過挖礦中國大陸英國透過保留查扣沒收的虛擬資產來建立這個部位盧森堡則是用主權基金來投入比特幣的交易所"},{"start":12560.343,"end":12586.16,"text":"烏克蘭更不用講是接受比特幣作為戰爭的捐款那瑞士央行則是持有依賴比特幣價值的股票等等那完整的結論有建議啦台灣我們在一個所謂的國家論述裡面多次提到韌性resilience那要擁有韌性我們也要有創新的精神和勇氣早期的去思考將比特幣作為其中一種選項的可能性"},{"start":12587.04,"end":12596.307,"text":"不過既然央行有點曾經會提到過比特幣的這個價格波動等等暫時我相信可能沒有這個立場有改變嗎"},{"start":12598.372,"end":12617.959,"text":"你就說是比特幣的價格波動還是比特幣戰略儲備的計畫央行的態度有沒有轉變到目前為止我們還是沒有轉變了解但是相關的報告我想已經很棒了這個持續在研議但我想要提供一個想法給總裁參考虛擬資產有它的便利性"},{"start":12618.659,"end":12633.684,"text":"流動性比較方便流動速度也快那我們能不能考慮假設沒有比特幣在內儲備我們有沒有可能考慮穩定幣的儲備就是把我們的外匯或者我們的某一些儲備部分小額的"},{"start":12635.605,"end":12653.7,"text":"轉為穩定幣的方式來儲存那去年穩定幣的總交易量高達46兆美元流通性也非常的健康總裁有沒有辦法考慮看看我們的外匯現在可能是以美債或者是以這個其他的形式來存放在極端狀況發生的時候可能會有流動性的問題"},{"start":12654.962,"end":12663.819,"text":"烏克蘭也是用穩定幣比特幣在做這個防衛的這些採購總裁能不能參考一下這個概念穩定幣的儲備"},{"start":12665.632,"end":12693.849,"text":"是啦 我想這個議題都是一樣的就是說比特幣也好或是穩定幣也好我們一併來考量一併考量但是就是說我們的決定是怎麼樣以目前為止 到目前為止我還是要跟委員講就是說穩定幣跟比特幣作為戰略儲備在我們的外存體裡面的一小部分這個到目前為止我們的態度"},{"start":12694.449,"end":12721.882,"text":"都還沒有改變但是呢時空會改變嘛時空會改變的時候呢我們的那個決定呢也必須要做某些的調整啦不過這個我也不能就是說我們以後就是一定會這樣子啦這個總裁我想大破大立的角色希望您可以來承擔啦因為您剛剛也提了嘛一小部分啦因為我們也要分散風險目前我們看到穩定幣或RWA在美國已經合法化了"},{"start":12722.422,"end":12744.95,"text":"未來我們持有的美債也說不定可以有一部分用RWA的方式代幣化的存放極端狀況發生的時候我們要來交換能源我們要來交換這些武器相對的有可能會更加的方便來降低我們的外匯在現在的狀態的整理風險那我想接著想要跟你討論一下近日在美國這個穩定幣的議題就非常熱門其實穩定幣的利息"},{"start":12749.771,"end":12764.657,"text":"目前對穩定幣的發行人不得向用戶支付利息這個我們都理解但是像平台商交換商這樣的二級市場並沒有明確規範但是前幾天銀行業者在美國已經退一步了"},{"start":12766.138,"end":12794.339,"text":"說僅禁止餘額型的收益對於有行為的獎勵則是維持開放的也就是你有主動性的部分就可以有第三方去提供利息那我們的VASP專法裡面的穩定幣的篇章不管是穩定幣發行運用費值金管會都要洽商央行的意見想請問一下央行對於非發行商提供穩定幣的存放利息主動型的或者被動型的央行的態度是什麼"},{"start":12794.839,"end":12811.395,"text":"我想這個議題還是因為還是在演繹當中那這個今晚會跟我們討論至於就是說我們態度目前為止我想我也不便在這邊講得很細節基本上我們彼此會互相討論好不好"},{"start":12813.016,"end":12827.134,"text":"就彼此尊重尊重專業也尊重金管會還有尊重相關虛擬資產服務業者的意見好不好好那我們就一起來商討謝謝各位委員下一位諮詢委員請洪育翔委員諮詢"},{"start":12844.11,"end":12847.317,"text":"好 謝謝主席我請這個總裁請周一黃楊總裁"},{"start":12859.49,"end":12875.406,"text":"我是把央行的業務報告整個看完我想在第14頁來講的話根據央行的報告我們去年的CPI是1.66%今年大概是預估1.8%"},{"start":12877.128,"end":12891.687,"text":"但是我們在同一份報告也承認整個去年拉高這個物價的主因大概就是外食跟房租它其實動線了我們CPR上升大概1.35個百分點也就是大概佔比是81%"},{"start":12893.149,"end":12914.987,"text":"那我們再看今年的話其實核心的CPI大概也是1.93最有感的還是外使房租大概還有最近的因為油電這些上漲那可能我們還有交通費這些東西那所以呢我們在看的是說整個央行會不會是說在這整個我們這個通膨的溫和"},{"start":12917.509,"end":12936.068,"text":"比較是存在報表上就是人民的生活的感受是不是因為我們可能會低估所以基本上來講就是說想請教這個總裁從我們小老百姓到底這樣子的央行的政策有沒有辦法去減輕我們一些的痛點"},{"start":12938.589,"end":12952.439,"text":"委員問得也很好這個就是說一般的百姓跟我們中央銀行的這個數據來對比的時候總覺得好像是有落差"},{"start":12953.86,"end":12971.596,"text":"那當然就是說從這三項來看的話就跟我們的民生的問題很有關聯而且都漲得比較高但是整體來講的話沒有那麼高那我們中央銀行的決策都是按照整體的來做決定"},{"start":12974.861,"end":12989.784,"text":"那我想第一個我必須要說明的是全球的中央銀行基本上都是以整體的通膨來看的他沒辦法針對某一項某一項那跟民眾比較有關係的第一個我們看就是說"},{"start":12990.645,"end":13000.389,"text":"主計總署他也有發布除了就總部全部的CPI的總指數以外的通膨率以外他也編列了這個賜互有的還有就是說比較所得比較低的他的通膨怎麼樣他也是會反映出低所得者的通膨率比較高明白"},{"start":13015.814,"end":13041.624,"text":"因為央行的政策還是總體的控制但是說如果總裁有一些高見也可以影響一些部會如果會商一下因為我覺得苦民所苦還是很重要但我們每次調查民眾都覺得你講這個都聽不懂是沒有錯就是說另外在央行的報告裡面國際的油價預測從每桶58.3到上修到85可能還會再增加對"},{"start":13043.665,"end":13065.331,"text":"這樣子的話大概就是拉高了我們CPI大概0.52個百分比但是我們靠著比如說台電中油這樣的吸收專案還漲甚至減稅我們把它壓到影響大概0.17個百分比所以你會看出來這個是現在的溫和大概是靠政府的吸收跟國營事業虧損出來的一個幻象"},{"start":13066.806,"end":13086.454,"text":"那我的意思是說如果我們油價繼續攀漲這個雙環漲的機制我不曉得還能撐多久因為最終你這電價調整財政的補貼或國庫的稅收最後還是要回到我們人民的身上嘛或者納稅嘛所以我想說看這個央行總裁有沒有什麼樣的高見"},{"start":13088.135,"end":13108.569,"text":"我跟委員報告 基本上政府用這樣的 所以我跟委員在我回答這個議題之前 我先跟委員報告一下就是說在俄烏戰爭的時候 台灣行政院也用這樣的一個機制來控制我們的通膨"},{"start":13111.031,"end":13127.567,"text":"這個也不是新招 以前我們的穩定的物價這個就是說供給面的問題就必須要用供給面的政策來對付它中美銀行的利率政策是要抑制需求反而是不好的所以應該是政府來做這件事那我們就用俄烏戰爭的這個例子來說明"},{"start":13134.053,"end":13157.067,"text":"當時呢就是說用這樣的來政府用管帳的一個機制的時候呢你看看2020年到2025年呢我們台灣的平均的這個通膨率是1.85好沒關係那個總裁因為時間有限所以可能在報告上面所以我的意思就是說"},{"start":13158.087,"end":13185.118,"text":"政府是還是必要的好還是要必要的明白最後一個我只有最後一個小問題就是因為我們產業發展的事因為我也來自資訊產業我們經濟成長率大概8.68%反正就是我們AI資訊半導體一個人的50%但是也從你的報告看到我們其他服務業的薪資的增長是差了2.81%所以我們這種薪資停滯的痛苦總和有沒有什麼高見這樣子是"},{"start":13186.339,"end":13200.157,"text":"如果說我們的薪資停滯基本上這幾年來講相對前幾年來講的話我們現在的我知道 我知道我們科技又很好 但服務又不好是對啦 當然啦"},{"start":13201.538,"end":13227.351,"text":"所以我們有廣大百分之七十幾的民眾是覺得跟我沒關係不好是相對的啦跟製造業來比較跟電子業來比較它是比較不好但是相較它還是我不耽誤其他的時間我想央行總裁也可以就這樣子的東西給我們一些見解最後這個我就請書面報告就是請這個財經公司的"},{"start":13229.352,"end":13245.898,"text":"就是去年1月的質詢這一個過濾費15塊我想要知道進度如何再跟我提供書面報告好不好好謝謝謝謝謝謝委員謝謝洪委員再來請林楚瑜委員質詢林楚瑜委員林楚瑜委員不在"},{"start":13247.218,"end":13266.171,"text":"請洪孟楷委員 洪孟楷委員 洪孟楷委員不在請林倩琦委員 林倩琦委員 林倩琦委員不在請陳冠廷委員 陳冠廷委員 陳冠廷委員不在請葉元芝委員 葉元芝委員 葉元芝委員不在本次會議做如下決定"},{"start":13273.701,"end":13299.533,"text":"今日發言登記委員均已詢問完畢本次會議做如下決定一 報告局詢問完畢二 委員質詢會及答覆或請補充資訊請中央銀行於週內已書面答覆令委員另要求期限者從其所定本次會議議程已進行完畢堂友不在場委員補庭書面質詢一併列入紀錄刊登公報並請議事人員協助處理現在散會"}]}},{"id":"168037","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168037","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d0265d86f2f18c67000297529a190c5c5334e86b5f84e1ac36fc5662b4090cd642b2a9aabf465d0c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葛如鈞","委員發言時間":"11:58:24 - 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謝謝主席有請央行楊總裁請中央央行楊總裁各位早總裁早首先要感謝央行在去年底提供給我們比特幣是否作為央行的儲備資產有一份正反並程的報告這一點我們真的是要給你肯定裡面有提到捷克央行已經投入100萬美元來購買加密資產"},{"start":32.933,"end":53.413,"text":"同時我們也感謝行政院 感謝法務部也協助我們調查了我們沒收扣押的比特幣台灣目前大概為止大概210顆目前已經可以排到全球將近前十的一個狀態雖然那個東西跟資產還有儲備還是有很長的距離但是我想我們開始理解這件事情是健康的"},{"start":54.033,"end":70.941,"text":"那各國其實非常關注啦這個也跟總裁介紹一下這是美國的參議員的幕僚辦公室的同仁之後去建立的一個比特幣戰略儲備的智庫所建立的台灣應該考量比特幣戰略儲備的一份報告"},{"start":72.702,"end":91.772,"text":"那這個之後我們有機會再分享給總裁那裡面他說台灣相當適合持有一定程度量的比特幣原因在於我們的地緣政治的環境無論可能是要面對海上的封鎖或者全面的入侵的情況之下相較於純正的美元跟黃金比特幣"},{"start":92.412,"end":119.643,"text":"是唯一一個可以在兩種情況下都完全可以存取的狀態使得世界上已經有40個以上的國家透過不同的方式來持有比特幣美國薩爾瓦多已經建立戰略儲備布丹俄羅斯透過挖礦中國大陸英國透過保留查扣沒收的虛擬資產來建立這個部位盧森堡則是用主權基金來投入比特幣的交易所"},{"start":120.363,"end":146.174,"text":"烏克蘭更不用講是接受比特幣作為戰爭的捐款那瑞士央行則是持有依賴比特幣價值的股票等等那完整的結論有建議台灣我們在一個所謂的國家論述裡面多次提到韌性resilience那要擁有韌性我們也要有創新的精神和勇氣早期的去思考將比特幣作為其中一種選項的可能性"},{"start":147.054,"end":156.327,"text":"不過既然央行有點曾經會提到過比特幣的這個價格波動等等暫時我相信可能沒有這個立場有改變嗎"},{"start":158.411,"end":178.012,"text":"你就說是比特幣的價格波動還是比特幣戰略儲備的計畫央行的態度有沒有轉變到目前為止我們還是沒有轉變了解但是相關的報告我想已經很棒了那個持續在研議但我想要提供一個想法給總裁參考虛擬資產有它的便利性"},{"start":178.673,"end":191.157,"text":"流動性比較方便流動速度也快我們能不能考慮假設沒有比特幣在內儲備我們有沒有可能考慮穩定幣的儲備就是把我們的外匯或者我們的某一些儲備部分小額的"},{"start":195.619,"end":213.717,"text":"轉為穩定幣的方式來儲存那去年穩定幣的總交易量高達46兆美元流通性也非常的健康總裁有沒有辦法考慮看看我們的外匯現在可能是以美債或者是以這個其他的形式來存放在極端狀況發生的時候可能會有流動性的問題"},{"start":214.979,"end":223.856,"text":"烏克蘭也是用穩定幣比特幣在做這個防衛的這些採購總裁能不能參考一下這個概念穩定幣的儲備"},{"start":225.666,"end":253.868,"text":"是啦 我想這個議題都是一樣的就是說比特幣也好或是穩定幣也好我們一併來考量一併考量 但是就是說我們的決定是怎麼樣以目前為止 到目前為止我還是要跟委員講就是說穩定幣跟比特幣作為戰略儲備在我們的外存體裡面的一小部分這個到目前為止我們的態度"},{"start":254.468,"end":278.317,"text":"都還沒有改變但是呢時空會改變嘛時空會改變的時候呢我們的那個決定呢也必須要做某些的調整啦不過這個我也不能就說我們以後就是一定會這樣子啦這個總裁我想大破大立的角色希望您可以來承擔啦因為您剛剛也提了嘛一小部分啦因為我們也要分散風險目前我們看到穩定幣或RWA在美國已經合法化了"},{"start":282.439,"end":304.987,"text":"未來我們持有的美債也說不定可以有一部分用RWA的方式代幣化的存放極端狀況發生的時候我們要來交換能源我們要來交換這些武器相對的有可能會更加的方便來降低我們的外匯在現在的狀態的整理風險我想接著想要跟你討論一下近日在美國穩定幣的議題就非常熱門其實穩定幣的利息"},{"start":309.808,"end":324.674,"text":"目前對穩定幣的發行人不得向用戶支付利息這個我們都理解但是像平台商交換商這樣的二級市場並沒有明確規範但是前幾天銀行業者在美國已經退一步了"},{"start":326.175,"end":354.353,"text":"說僅禁止餘額型的收益對於有行為的獎勵則是維持開放的也就是你有主動性的部分就可以有第三方去提供利息那我們的VASP專法裡面的穩定幣的篇章不管是穩定幣發行運用費值金管會都要洽商央行的意見想請問一下央行啊對於非發行商提供穩定幣的存放利息主動型的或者被動型的央行的態度是什麼"},{"start":355.073,"end":377.242,"text":"我想這個議題還是因為還是在演繹當中那這個金管會會跟我們討論至於就是說我們態度目前為止我想我也不便在這邊講得很細節基本上我們彼此會互相討論好不好彼此尊重尊重專業也尊重金管會還有尊重相關虛擬資產服務業者的意見好不好那我們就一起來商討謝謝各位"},{"start":384.105,"end":387.149,"text":"下一位質詢委員 請洪玉祥委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"168036","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168036","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d0265d86f2f18c676d76e51c04d17c8a7f5bc5cff238b3be36fc5662b4090cd60e7e88b7d6e8a5905ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"12:00:49 - 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顧部長有請請顧部長"},{"start":11.955,"end":38.587,"text":"部長辛苦了我們今天的主題是年度軍事投資計畫跟財政負擔能力的平衡評估那當然這個在質詢前我特別看了一下這一次這個部裡面的報告這個在裡面的篇幅裡面當然還是花了很大的篇幅跟空間去說明特別預算的一些必要性那也講了在公務預算編列的時候的一些困境這些東西本席都看到了但我想今天排這樣子的議程的重點應該是總體財政能力的負擔"},{"start":39.827,"end":66.223,"text":"所以今天把這個我覺得也不能單看特別預算嘛你應該是看整體台灣的國防支出嘛跟整體台灣的財政狀況有一個綜合性的評估這樣子比較容易能夠消除社會大眾的疑慮也能夠在各黨分歧的狀況之下去找到一定的共識我想部長應該不會反對我這樣的說法吧對 我們事實上在討論這個專案報告要怎麼寫的時候特別是就那個財政負擔能力的部分"},{"start":67.443,"end":86.376,"text":"我們國防部是提需求啦那最後其實要看那個組織總署是的所以我們也沒有辦法在這個報告裡面直接去寫得非常的清楚沒關係組織總署就只能給我多少問題是這不是我的權好如果我講的那個那我國防部的需求我可以提"},{"start":87.441,"end":104.22,"text":"但是不見得能夠被實行 這個我完全理解國防部的危難之處不可能都擺入年度預算嘛這是我們過去這麼多年以來跟的一些狀況 這我想我們在在上禮拜的法案審查討論的時候其實也都有交換過意見 我們都非常的清楚這次大家在討論這個特別預算等等的時候這個淡江的"},{"start":104.981,"end":118.348,"text":"大學的戰研所的助理教授接種他有一篇投書大概把幾個警示我姑且講他是提醒善意的提醒做了一些提醒那今天就討論一下因為我蠻好奇國防部要怎麼樣回應這些問題他說"},{"start":120.729,"end":141.798,"text":"這個連年編列高額的採購特別預算雖然你用特別預算的方式可以直接避免去排擠一般的正式支出也就是說你面對主計總署的壓力但他同時會造成他提醒了三個副作用第一個叫做國防支出的結構失衡第二個是資源力的人力不足的問題第三個是舉債金額的增加我們就一個一個來探討我蠻好奇國防部對於這件事情的意見這個有關於國防"},{"start":143.499,"end":171.115,"text":"支出的結構失衡 概念是這樣子我們國防的支出就全部國防部正常預算大概就三大類人員維持費 人事費用作業維持費 也就是我武器要保養有時候要合理的更新等等那第三個才是大家比較常態比較直觀了解的就是說軍事的投資也就是說購買武器或者是投資新的產線等等大概分成是三塊那麼從國防部的公務預算的表格裡面預算中心整理的"},{"start":172.296,"end":194.561,"text":"大體上你可以看出來近年來是增加增加幅度這我們都不討論了這個大家都很清楚的總是有必要的這個我們都理解但是你要看我今天想要點的是比例的問題也就是在過去的時候原則上這個作業維持費跟軍事投資費用它大概是一個平衡的狀況彼此之間的金額不會差太多越多的武器就代表你未來有越多的維護管養的這樣子的一個需求那從"},{"start":195.681,"end":221.502,"text":"過去這幾年國防部的公務預算來講它是一個相對平衡 相對穩定的一個狀態好 但現在問題來了我們今天提出了新的所謂的特別條例這依照2500億當然它是分年來編列那當然這表示著我們未來武器的採購會大幅的增加那麼武器採購的增加但我沒有看到目前國防部針對武器增加之後未來的作業維持費用的增加做出財政的預估跟說明"},{"start":222.322,"end":245.428,"text":"所以我想這也是這個接種教授有提到的這個會不會造成支出結構的嚴重失衡呢因為現在看起來是一比一啊可是你如果把未來好幾年大概都要加一千多億兩千億的軍事投資的預算那麼這一比一它可能變成一比1.5甚至變成1.2就是大量的採購但是作為維持費我們現在看不到未來的變化趨勢嘛對不對那麼請問這一段國防部的說明是什麼呢"},{"start":245.868,"end":261.86,"text":"那委員我們這個要跟委員報告一下接種教授他裡面提的資訊裡面因為他沒有辦法拿到我們完整的沒關係我都理解你們就回應吧那太除舊裝備是節約我們作為非常重要的一環我舉這次的海馬斯為例"},{"start":262.921,"end":286.571,"text":"海馬士是準備汰除目前我們現役的M118吋流自走炮跟M109A2自走炮那目前這兩個自走炮它的那個年度的作為費的額度都已經佔了相當高的部分到時候等到我們海馬士進來這兩個舊型裝備之後汰除之後就可以節約大量的那個作為費"},{"start":287.952,"end":316.592,"text":"那目前當然我們要解決的主要還是航財的問題因為作為費裡面因應中共敵情威脅的提升航財的消耗事實上一直在提升應該是很高的嘛對不對我們也有一個完整的規劃在我們新機進來之後我們會做一個調控機制讓作為費能夠維持在一個比較可控的狀況您今天答應今天質詢的時間其實是非常短的當然也沒有辦法透過三言兩語把話講清楚我的意思是說我想今天大家想要看到的報告裡面其實是包含一個"},{"start":317.132,"end":336.448,"text":"相對長期的作業維持費就是你如果有合理增加的狀況那你如何避免這一段去做正式的排擠如果你講因為有部分的太主所以你可以有做部分的節約你也要有一個年度非常清楚的表格也就是說預估未來的你特別預算都是要大家授權八年為這樣子的一個規模這本身就很有爭議的事情"},{"start":337.369,"end":362.979,"text":"如果這部分沒有辦法說明清楚 那疑慮就會在所以我今天講的是善意提醒 我想教授寫這個也是善意提醒我們希望看到 會後吧 你就提供吧這八年來有關於作業維持費 未來八年的財政預估哪些項目增加了 哪些項目減少了 每年的數字大概是怎麼樣會不會排擠到 我軍事投資特別預算沒關係啊可是作業維持往上 你是不是還是會面對我國防部扣打不夠啊主計總書又有意見 然後造成一些執行上的困難"},{"start":363.579,"end":377.284,"text":"是不是可以請國防部在會後提供完整8年有關於人員維持、作業維持跟軍事熟知的完整的財務規劃報告提送資料沒問題那給我10秒鐘跟委員報告可以的請委員看一下這個表裡面114年度的作業維持費是1476億是的那我跟委員報告115年我們的作業維持費額度是1990億我們成長的幅度已經"},{"start":387.088,"end":411.435,"text":"差不多34%所以我們在增加軍事投資的同時我們一定會去同步考量作業維持費的預算需求這個先跟委員做個報告所以我才講未來8年增加的不會只是1.25兆或者是不管到最後通過多少數字這個相關的採購的增加一定會上升採購支出會上升作業維持費上升這8年的預估也是要很明確的這樣說明才會清楚這是本席的提醒"},{"start":413.315,"end":435.568,"text":"我們在每一年上五年的兵力整建計畫的時候同時我們會上五年的兵力汰除的規劃我們也考慮到這個橫平性他要如何利用作為費來支撐我們後續新式武器裝備而且現在的武器裝備他的能力可能都比傳統的武器裝備他的效率可能會更高的所以我覺得你資料提供越完整他其實是有助於溝通的好不好"},{"start":436.068,"end":463.435,"text":"第二個他的質疑當然就是有關於志願役人力嘛因為新的編裝新的專業新的什麼但我們的編線筆這個是老問題了嘛待遇增加如果大家又各執一執也沒意思但我想他的質疑不無道理我們也希望國防部在人力調度的方面比如說之前無人機加急卡了好久對不對這些問題你要能夠做減少啊現在如果真的有這個特別預算的編列新式武器的再支出我們的人力的部分要怎麼樣來跟上呢是不是可以請部長簡單回答"},{"start":464.563,"end":491.585,"text":"我們人力的部分在114年度來看我們的邊縣比已經達到80%然後我們資源人數增加了4000人然後我們的流運力也增加我想這個部分我們會來實際來努力那另外也跟委員報告我們現在因為實施一年期的義務役所以一年期的義務役對我們整個相關人力的充實也很重要那當然義務役的部分我們比較有一個"},{"start":493.025,"end":513.471,"text":"長時間的一個從事一個從這一個新訓到駐地到基地到這個聯合作戰的這個能力的整個訓練所以這個能力的部分在EWE他們在他們一般高峰會在他們大學畢業的那一年會形成一個比較穩定的EWE的來源所以我們一方面增加我們的志願役"},{"start":514.271,"end":531.594,"text":"的能力然後志願役的高端的人才然後一方面我們對於151要做一個充足的訓練那當然志願役也要做完全的實戰化的一個訓練所以我們不斷的結合這兩部分那我們希望來因應我們持續未來人員的需求"},{"start":532.034,"end":551.053,"text":"這個本席一路以來都是主張啦就是說隨著戰爭形態的改變專業性的提升科技元素的導入等等未來的專業性其實是很重要的所以志願役我認為是絕對不可或缺的在這一段為什麼我們那麼強化那麼強調相關的待遇的一個提升而且是總體的大幅的提升其實不外乎就是希望國防部有充足的人員"},{"start":551.673,"end":575.323,"text":"那當然這個我們未來有機會討論這個人力擴充的專案報告的時候,我們再來詳細的去談幾個方向,再來跟部長來討論。那我們就一樣,這個提醒,這個人力的部分請國防部,如果可以的話你也可以提供一下報告啦。就是說我配合你的這個軍購,你現在的這個很大的這樣一個構想之後,我的人員,這個相關的配套措施,我希望國防部可以提供更多的資料來以利說明喔。那最後一個部分當然是有關於財政支出的部分嘛。"},{"start":575.663,"end":592.158,"text":"像我們前一段時間通過的這個關稅因應國際歧視的特別預算裡面它其實還有一部分是可以用所謂的稅計剩餘來做處理那當然國共部會員講這幾年經濟成長率不錯啊等等收稅都不錯了那現在如果按照院版這1.25兆我們舉債的比例大概會是多少我...有稅計剩餘"},{"start":599.452,"end":614.816,"text":"外交局外交委會報告的時候 其實包含財政部跟主席總統都有說明我們目前的國家的稅率剩餘大概應該沒有剩多少大部分可能就還是要透過舉債的 但是會遵守財政具體法相關規範來辦理"},{"start":616.164,"end":634.044,"text":"所以特別條例裡面已經就已舉在的這個額度還是不能夠總量不能夠超過那個公共債務法的相關的規定已經有在這裡面有做過因為我們一照2500億是分成八年不是一年編列所以這還在我們可以符合財政紀律的這個"},{"start":636.687,"end":655.303,"text":"這個我要提醒一下部長我們從再大一點的角度來總體考量其實舉債它到最後它也是會有互相排擠的狀況因為很多的重大正式支出比如說國家的重大建設或者是今天也許我們要因應少子女化有大額的投資這些到了最後它都有可能也要思考透過舉債的手段來做處理嘛"},{"start":656.063,"end":677.654,"text":"那同樣如果今天舉債的額度被大量的佔用的時候它到最後還是一樣它只是排擠的項目不一樣以前叫公務預算的排擠或者是特別預算的排擠甚至未來是債務的排擠這也是未來大家會關心的一點這就是為什麼本期今天特別去強調整個今天的主題也好或者是本期今天的質詢的主題也好就是希望它有一個長期的總體的財政評估包含舉債包含人員"},{"start":679.522,"end":700.648,"text":"增補包含作業維持這樣一併的清楚的又說明才比較容易讓大家比較能夠接受國防預算大幅增加的狀況當時在提八年依照兩千五百億的時候就已經有確實在跟院裡面就有做過這樣的評估啦因為部長你講的就只是講說我們會符合財政紀律法的總體規定不夠詳細嘛所以我想逐年的數字嘛"},{"start":700.848,"end":720.829,"text":"總要有一些詳細的數字來做一些討論跟別人到底每一年會佔用多少會不會大額的增加如何從其他的地方檢審這些其實都是解決事情的手段跟方式嘛那國防部提供的越詳細大家才有機會比較容易收束這個大家現在是立場不一樣啊但我們要想辦法解決問題嘛所以在收束共識的過程之中提供很多資料我想是很有必要的啦"},{"start":721.434,"end":740.253,"text":"報告委員這邊補充一下如果說牽扯到國家總體財政包含了以前年齡稅金剩餘以及取債的額度多少我想公安部這邊可能沒辦法提供比較具體的資料因為我們可以就1.25兆的部分我們每年我們可能會跟主席總書做個說明看看他那邊能不能做個"},{"start":740.794,"end":755.976,"text":"我們做一下研究我想這是國家大事這麼大一筆的支撐跨部會的合作總是有必要的對不對我們會跟主委總書討論討論一下嘛因為每一年的狀況都要預估了嘛他們會有一個有一個有一個概算好歹要有預估的東西啦"},{"start":757.017,"end":773.5,"text":"那我再提醒一下因為剛剛很多委員在質詢的時候都有提到比如說發架書啊等等這我們在討論的過程中其實本席有講得非常的清楚嘛我一直在問國防部的是你們自己有心理有把握的時間表是什麼對吧那當然我因為不為難大家所以你講這總會有一個溝通的一些過程但是我也提醒啦有善意提醒嘛"},{"start":773.9,"end":801.46,"text":"如果這些東西時間表可以非常的明確有更清楚的一些輪廓的時候它其實也是有助於達成共識的我覺得今天我們就不要再講立場了但是我們要一起講方法所以本席今天提出的一些這樣的要求希望國防部盡快的整理相關財政負擔的這樣子的一個報告來有助於未來法案也好預算也好的討論可以嗎我們財政負擔的部分我們跟主席總署來討論好不好OK好那就麻煩國防部希望大家可以大家可以最終可以達成共識啦謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168034","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168034","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d0265d86f2f18c6777009b2cc75caa5d5334e86b5f84e1acb7080941cab810ccdae08b56ec4be6015ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王世堅","委員發言時間":"11:47:01 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結果都成了烏奴啦 都成了烏奴所以在這三大面向的分析之下 都是全民感受得到的痛苦之下結果我們突然間 三月份 好不容易堅持這麼久的"},{"start":310.271,"end":333.608,"text":"根據這個我們這麼久的這個根據這個房市的管制結果這次鬆綁啦 你看法為什麼 為什麼是 我覺得那個委員的分析都非常的正確至於就是說要我們來說一個理由我想我很簡單的 第一個就是說"},{"start":337.972,"end":346.92,"text":"37.6%下降到36%這個是也有一定的成效了當然剛剛委員是說我們的目標是35%不過我們也沒有對外講究說我們的目標就是一定35%"},{"start":355.407,"end":381.899,"text":"這個要看情況啦不過呢35就是說是從你的圖形上看上去的話35是確實是從低點往上的嘛所以呢我想36到目前為止我們就是說我們有一定的成效我們沒有說我們很滿意這是第一點第二點呢我們之所以會放我們就是說一定的成效第二點我們為什麼會放寬第二戶最主要的就是說"},{"start":382.839,"end":398.766,"text":"我們剛剛委員分析的也沒有非常正確就是說第一戶跟第二戶是草房的最大最大宗嘛那第一戶呢在第一戶跟第二戶裡面呢是第一戶的草房的比重更大"},{"start":399.861,"end":425.819,"text":"第二戶在草房的比重比較小根據我們的資訊第一戶的草房的大概是七成第二戶的大概是兩成最多兩成我記得是15%到20%這是第二個第三個就是說在我們管制的這一段期間裡面第二戶下降的速度非常快"},{"start":426.803,"end":437.672,"text":"它下降會速度非常快所以呢也就是說是從從多少呢從這個從它是減少了跟同期間是從它是減少了分別為24.7 18.3你說集中度減少"},{"start":446.38,"end":452.566,"text":"它減少的幅度非常大它減少了多少呢 減少了8.6跟6.5那我們是覺得就是說 以草房的七成 大部分是說第一戶那第二戶呢 它只有占15%到20%那但是呢 它下降的速度比較快"},{"start":471.184,"end":488.006,"text":"那我們是覺得就是說如果我們因為第三個就是說他對第二戶呢就是說他是自住的那我是總覺得這個自住我們如果說微調的話呢對於整個我們的管制的那個的impact應該是不會有多大的影響"},{"start":488.847,"end":505.121,"text":"你認為說不會太大影響這個我們尊重但是你剛剛講他第二戶構設的我們放寬但是你說他是自住自住這一點我希望在這一個部分我們可以加強去稽查去瞭解透過銀行去瞭解"},{"start":508.924,"end":532.249,"text":"我們至於你說的第一戶的炒房率遠高於第二戶這個當然我們再研究一下啦你們可能那邊有研究的我看的資料我自己分析的是沒有差那麼多啦可能就是建商因為他們會現在大舉的用這個公司的人頭戶去把這個"},{"start":536.278,"end":551.833,"text":"他們當初的土榮建榮要轉成分屋貸款這可能也是個原因啦要不然往往都是第二戶投資客最多啦我第二個問題要請教你的就是關於我們這個主權基金主權基金"},{"start":560.345,"end":585.411,"text":"去年總裁你有鬆口了啦但是你認為說假使要用外匯你是說要有一定的利潤有長波用你才肯就對了那你對國家基金的主權基金的看法到底是這樣你支持還是不支持就是說如果"},{"start":586.488,"end":603.203,"text":"我們不用外匯那改用其他這兩種管道財政部發特定的公債那這個稅收我們用財政盈餘來做主權基金那這樣你支不支持我當然我也支持啊"},{"start":603.763,"end":631.486,"text":"也是支持我也是支持在我看我是認為我們一定要用外匯存底當作基底我想總裁你也應該心知肚明這是我們國家最大筆的來源也最穩定鄰近的國家韓國馬來西亞香港他們都是所以我希望說是不是再來你針對說要有長波用要有一定"},{"start":632.567,"end":654.901,"text":"固定一個利潤以上才肯那你再研究一下要怎麼樣的利潤才肯因為我們大家把話挑明尤其中央銀行你帶頭財政部、經濟部、金管會跟隨之下我們趕快來促成主權基金好不好因為主權基金我們到現在為止我們台灣確實有點慢了應該要積極下去推動落實好不好謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":663.226,"end":665.919,"text":"再來下一位諮詢人員請耿如軍委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"168029","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168029","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d0265d86f2f18c6776ab73c3e4dae4d37f5bc5cff238b3beb7080941cab810cc1e0ef36d357a05ce5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"11:26:25 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商購案 違制案它是缺一不可但是它可以在預算的時候我們再把它的這個如果覺得哪一條或者是說哪一個款項認為說它有不穩之處或者是有不妥之處"},{"start":278.078,"end":286.455,"text":"那是可以來做商討的是可以進監督的那如果沒有條例的話那我們接下來做的每件事情都會去拖慢那第二個部分我請這個權動署署長"},{"start":300.294,"end":326.86,"text":"署長好 署長你們有包含這個管理災害這個防救的這種協調嘛對不對有協調好那是這樣我發覺到說我們現在不管是在我們的選區嘉義縣也好或者是各個縣市也好那每一個活動中心它在重大的不管是風災或者是天然災害的時候或者是未來可能我們不知道地區性衝突的時候它都會有扮演重要的角色因為必須它緊急狀況它要容納災民嘛"},{"start":329.341,"end":348.832,"text":"那我們遇到一個問題就是基本上我看過的所有的活動東西各個鄉鎮的大概十之八九都沒有發電機都沒有發電機就是柴油的也好這種緊急臨時的發電機那過去在風災的時候不管是雲嘉南地帶就大量的時間是停電的就是甚至有十天十二天甚至十三天的"},{"start":349.272,"end":369.8,"text":"那這個狀況之下活動中心裡面的這個發電機它是對整個穩定民心是很重要的那前天也是在這個場地我們跟這個烏克蘭的軍人還有一些相關的團體在這邊召開這個關於我們防禦任性的會議那對我們一個很重要的建議就是"},{"start":370.74,"end":385.143,"text":"把發電機盡可能的配備在所有可能民生或者是重要基礎設施需要的地方那我現在看起來是沒有啦那當然這個決鬥署可能是負責協調啦但是我覺得這個是一個極端重要的事情因為"},{"start":386.064,"end":409.944,"text":"一再的講這件事情 我們要講我們的韌性韌性最重要的是水跟電沒有水跟電就沒有辦法穩定民心沒有辦法穩定軍心那對於他們的士氣就會打擊烏克蘭是有冬天的 我們是有夏天的那這個東西都是很嚴峻的狀況希望全動數可以跨部會的盡快來去協調我們全台的幾個活動中心現在有百分之多少有發電機 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其實各法院都會有相關資料只是我手邊一下子沒辦法告訴委員說總共大概會有幾件因為我們比較難理解的是說法院照理講它就是一個最公家機關而且它是一個這個執法機關那在這裡面都沒有辦法維持秩序可是另外一點"},{"start":91.977,"end":103.264,"text":"換過頭來講 您剛剛也有提到委員諮詢講是說畢竟是兩兆雙方都在那邊所以說可能難免情緒的一個部分所以現在到底哪一些法院的這個妨礙法庭秩序的狀況是比較嚴重的"},{"start":105.206,"end":123.747,"text":"我相信各法院妨害法庭秩序應該都不會很嚴重只是說我們不容許有一件法庭這是最重要剛剛委員提到戴維敬平出入法院其實是很多所以我們第一線法警在門口是非常落實在檢查這個維敬平的吸入"},{"start":125.006,"end":145.592,"text":"是 所以那這樣子是不是能夠給本席一個相關資料就是說過去一年或過去三年裡面我們這個違禁的行為或是危害秩序的行為這邊有一個統計再來本席也想要跟您就討論一下就是說因為在法院上面這個是另外本席在"},{"start":146.679,"end":168.095,"text":"聽到很多的陳情這也是過去到現在很多團體要求的就是說在法院上面其實在被害者的角色就加害者他當然他就是坐在這個然後這個檢察官跟他來做一個審理嘛但被害者不管是被害者或被害者家屬其實他都沒有一個固定的座位甚至說被害者或被害者家屬沒有辦法去做一個"},{"start":169.035,"end":169.956,"text":"關於刑事訴訟法 關於被害人參與的部分"},{"start":192.37,"end":206.669,"text":"其實很多人不管律師不管是法律學者也都有相關的建議我想這已經不是第一次了但是本席因為我們也正式提出了案件也有很多的委員共同的參與連署也因此我今天特別利用這個機會來就教一下秘書長"},{"start":207.73,"end":230.311,"text":"其實在這個刑事訴訟法裡面是有規定在科刑程序前就像委員所說的一定要讓這個被害人參與但現在唯一就是剛剛委員也提到我們在法組法上面關於被害人在法庭的席位我們是沒有規定所以我們這次也要把它列入讓被害人他們有個"},{"start":232.502,"end":247.396,"text":"有席位不是專用席位被害人的專用席位是 就被害人的專屬位不是說他跟著這個旁聽席坐在那邊不是旁聽席 他是會坐在那個"},{"start":256.215,"end":279.652,"text":"我們是沒有把他列出一個專用席可是會請他跟檢察官坐在一起如果他到庭的話會請他坐在因為那邊剛好有空位那就請他坐我們是沒有一個名牌的專用席這樣子而已來 民務長我想確認一下是現行就已經這樣做了還是說你們預計要做這樣的修法"},{"start":283.675,"end":302.011,"text":"各個法官請秘書長可以把麥克風靠近一點這個細節可不可以請我們私行聽來檢要說明一下沒有問題檢要說明一下跟委員報告其實就是因為法院組織法授權司法院應該訂立一個法院席位的佈置規則"},{"start":303.072,"end":319.723,"text":"那確實我們現在在法庭的以刑事法庭為例他會有設一個區域是給刑事的被害人跟告訴人做的那我們當時盡量是把他安排在比較接近這個檢察官的位置就是不是接近被告的那一端"},{"start":320.123,"end":337.253,"text":"那剛剛秘書長說的確實沒錯就是因為有時候被害人比較多的時候那那個席位可能會不太夠所以就會稍微往旁邊做一些但是基本上我們還是法官的訴訟指揮還是會盡量讓被害人跟被告這邊會有區隔好來 那秘書長"},{"start":337.993,"end":352.667,"text":"既然我們已經有往這個方向來邁進了那本席也講是說那就是不是能夠有法治化或說更明確的一個規範那以及就是說在這個案件的審理過程當中被害人或是被害人家屬的意見表達其實也是相關重要"},{"start":353.368,"end":381.176,"text":"因為來你麥克風可以按開沒關係沒問題其實刑事訴訟法已經規定了法官在訴訟指揮上面本來就是要讓這個被害人要去陳述意見但我們現在看到很多的實際的狀況會是到最後已經都審理完畢法官可能再給被害人或是被害人家屬一個說明的機會但這個時候也許早已經有自由心證也許早已經判決就已經差不多了"},{"start":382.62,"end":401.633,"text":"所以我想是說這個部分就會變成是說到底他的重要性跟他的一個位置意見表達的時候到哪裡其實這也是很多的被害者有很多的一些民間團體他們一直在陳情的狀況我想現在其實在柯行陳述的時候應該會有可能他對於被害影響陳述這個區塊我們如果說"},{"start":405.856,"end":420.904,"text":"各界還是質疑法官在審判程序上是不是給這些被害人更多的陳述機會我們會在教育上再次提醒其實法規是有的"},{"start":421.904,"end":436.87,"text":"我們會再次的來提醒法官所以我想民主黨其實你回答蠻正向的就是說也認為是說應該要參照如果一個案件裡面被害者最直接的他的意見其實表達也算是重要"},{"start":437.29,"end":460.835,"text":"所以未來本席如果說我們提出相關修法的時候我們會進一步救教那針對這部分我們也希望司法院是一個比較開放的態度能夠往我們審理更好的公平正業方向來邁進那最後一點我只簡單提醒一下因為也是很多的陳情跟抱怨是說我們現在書記官的人數確實不足尤其是現在新收案2022年357萬件這全國法"},{"start":465.336,"end":478.926,"text":"到2025年也許會突破425萬件但是書記官的報導率只有50%左右而且全國缺額超過400人哪一個法院缺額最多"},{"start":480.356,"end":497.393,"text":"我們前三名是應該是就是沒有報到最多他就是北三院就案件量也最大最大的然後可能案件的複雜性也最高然後可能他的相關的這個內容也最繁瑣然後他的"},{"start":498.599,"end":518.51,"text":"缺席率就是沒有報道率最高那我們要怎麼樣因為這已經不是冰凍三尺非一日之寒這不是第一次的問題那其實司法法治委員會幾乎每個會期都會有委員提醒但到目前為止感覺缺口是越來越大是跟委員首先當然要謝謝這個趙偉還有我們委員會"},{"start":523.272,"end":539.685,"text":"支持我們讓書記官的專業佳績提高了到六千多塊雖然不多也是用感覺可是跟委員報告其實以書記官現在的業務量跟早期的他的工作量來講其實我個人認為一股的法官應該有兩個書記官"},{"start":541.927,"end":564.536,"text":"因為我們一個是書面處理 卷證是書面處理一個是電腦處理 其實就是兩份工作其實這也是為什麼書記官會不來報到是最大的原因他等於是一個人做兩份工作 是的 是的那再過來 那當然後續是一樣工作 可是就是兩份工作那我們還有"},{"start":566.537,"end":582.288,"text":"薪水很低 職等很低其實書記官剛進來4萬塊那如果一進來就是這麼恐怖的工作的話所以我們常常會有第二天報到完第二天就不來了是 本期也看到 董事長當然您的"},{"start":584.649,"end":601.833,"text":"第一線同仁的委屈我們都理解但是您是會秘書長這不能變成是抱怨大會所以我現在本席提出來是說能夠協助我們都願意來協助但重點是第一 援俄的問題嘛第二是待遇的問題那待遇司法法治委員會已經有協助加這個津貼了"},{"start":602.293,"end":623.458,"text":"好 那我們現在要問的是原額問題有沒有計畫來去爭取以及怎麼解決這才是我們想要看到的這也是才能讓第一線的書記官放心是說真的司法院有在動作好 公委員報告原額部分我們是一直在爭取一直被拒絕被誰拒絕人總啊人總 那人總上面是誰"},{"start":630.458,"end":654.83,"text":"不是 這很心酸啊對啊 就這樣啊 可是我們真的是那另外 老實說啦 求人還是要求進來 那這樣子 我說實在話每年五院不是我們新春開春的時候總統都召集五院院長查序嗎除了立法行政院長有去的時候我們司法院院長他去的時候也應該跟總統反應一下"},{"start":655.59,"end":684.596,"text":"我們希望 對不是希望啦所以我要邀請妳妳要幫我們第一線的我們努力沒有這樣 我今天真的 我很持平的講是因為我們也有很多同的這種法律相關的這一些科系的從業人員或是書記官的朋友那確實第一線的辛苦如同您剛剛講的您剛剛講的都算保守你說兩份工作你說這一些行政都需要但我們現在要看的是中華民國政府是一體的要拿出辦法"},{"start":685.436,"end":710.941,"text":"而不是你推我我推你那到最後不然就是請招委我們再排一次請人總跟司法院一起來然後兩項對質另外還有一個總員額法其實這邊如果突破人數的話就突破那是不是能夠提出來我覺得這個本來就是司法院本來就行這個本來也可以提的我們讓一起來努力但重點在於是說不要我們這個變成是我們變成是一個考古題變成是一個這個"},{"start":713.344,"end":739.931,"text":"這樣講比較抱歉啦 就是會期題啊月經題 會期題就變成是每一次會期開始之後我們就一直又問這個問題但本席為什麼今天還特別感謝趙偉多給我一些時間但本席為什麼多提出來就是因為如果再不動作的話缺口只會越來越大那您剛剛也已經講到了書記官現在的工作根本就是兩人工作那一股只有一個書記官的話那根本做不來根本的問題連我們自己的子女可能都不想讓他去當書記官"},{"start":740.731,"end":743.523,"text":"跟委員報告 中研合法我們不是主管機關"},{"start":744.69,"end":771.993,"text":"那也是要溝通啊 也是要突破啊對啊 我們就要突破 本席 本席今天點出這個問題我希望看到司法院積極的態度不管是跟其他行政部門的溝通 積極態度我們這邊立法院一定會幫忙推一把但重點是司法院要有積極的態度因為你們身為主管機關就應該要來為第一線的書記官發聲 好不好我一定會再繼續追這個議題 我們一起努力 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},{"start":326.155,"end":340.926,"text":"但他被告知說他是加配德援所以他也沒有領導加級所以這個部分可不可以回應一下就是說除了憲兵之外可能其他的軍種是不是也要一併的一起來研究看看有沒有類似的情況 來說明一下"},{"start":341.386,"end":357.948,"text":"海軍參訪報告 報委員這個我們再下去了解但是因為叫召的情形要看他的正式的位置是不是屬於領導職務才有當然啊當然啊那這個部分我們下去了解那你看因為他講說他是做的是上市執行官嘛應該就是背個他可能就部隊集合其他的詳細的事情"},{"start":358.769,"end":371.54,"text":"所以你們要講得很清楚嘛就是說誰能夠誰能夠有誰沒有這個要講很清楚那你的這個界定是怎麼界定的這個不是對我說明這個是對來參加教招的招員們要做說明"},{"start":373.599,"end":391.706,"text":"我是權動署署長謝謝你這麼關心那我先跟委員報告所謂加配得援他為什麼要多選這個百分之十或百分之二十就是為了避免有些我們已經選到的這些招援他因為事故生病或者是入監服役"},{"start":392.586,"end":421.362,"text":"他不能來那我們已經把他和免掉要來補充這些人所以應該是在在我們把他和免了那我們用加倍得圓的這些人來補充的時候他就會有一個編制如果他補充到這個主觀的職務領導的職務那我們將來在薪資上就可以給他有領導加緊照你講的話根本不會出現剛剛的錯誤啊因為你在一開始的時候就已經把大家都分配好了這麼還會有一梯裡面有三個人沒有領導的"},{"start":422.262,"end":445.684,"text":"所以報委員 那我們也發覺可能有一些基層的幹部比如說連長 營長 他們可能不知道這樣子所以我們 你這樣講不太對我跟你講 因為你是講說 你現在變成是說你前面 就是你前期作業他來之前就已經把大家的這些任務 然後誰是領多少這些都已經分配好嘛 對"},{"start":446.084,"end":463.199,"text":"那說騙人是說基層的幹部那他按照你的這個指示下去發那怎麼還會弄錯呢?加配德援他是沒有在編制裡面那把這些和免的人和免掉之後那把加配德援這些人再來充實這些和免掉的職務這些缺"},{"start":464.941,"end":493.4,"text":"所以說可能有一些幹部對這個不了解那我們也要求後備縣市後備責務部他在每一梯叫召的時候都會成立一個事故處理小組我們把這個列為務必要去了解到底有沒有加配德援這樣的現象我跟您說這一梯是因為裡面有對於國軍薪資結構了解的招援在裡面所以他才反映出這個事件"},{"start":494,"end":522.674,"text":"如果今天因為只有三個人嘛如果今天剛好那三個人裡面他沒有對於國軍的薪資結構了解的人這個事情就吵吵過去了那就有一些人他根本應得的待遇沒有得到但是卻沒有人為他發聲所以這件事情就像顧部長講的請你們要好好檢討是再來我要問一下一樣是縣執部齁那這個縣訓中心叫招的人員的軍種就我了解齁像以這個梯子來說只有三分之一是憲兵而已啊是嗎"},{"start":524.318,"end":541.847,"text":"是的剩下三分之二哪來的其他因為憲兵專長屬於不是高階專長所以說稍微不足的話會統一有後備責務來做同階的專長調配所以人不是原單位編組也是另外一層"},{"start":543.087,"end":562.025,"text":"這樣子我們在訓練作戰能力還是只是集合演練我可以理解對於憲兵人員來說是不足的我們人數上是比較少所以去找了其他的軍種湊合去做教召可是這個大前提是不是要一一明確的告知他們戰時本來應該要動員的去處跟編制"},{"start":564.207,"end":570.113,"text":"因為這個事情發生之後我就有去找這一梯次的一些的交易員去詢問他們在這14天的這個叫招的狀況結果很多人告訴我們說呢他原本的專長跟他叫招的專長第一個完全不一樣"},{"start":579.682,"end":604.132,"text":"第二個他要來如果在戰時要去哪裡在做準備的地點也都有變動那在這種情況之下如果我們每一次叫招的時候那都給的指令是不同的那我們就會很懷疑說現在這樣的叫招他有沒有符合我們國軍整體的叫招的作戰需求報委員跟你說明一下就是"},{"start":605.302,"end":620.591,"text":"因為我們之前並沒有這麼多的一年期的我們當然都知道可是你們今天上路了就要做好我們現在動員的優先順序就是常備部隊優先把它"},{"start":621.491,"end":642.784,"text":"尤其是把它鞭死而且是這個沒有啦因為我時間有限你直接回答我的問題好不好我剛剛的問題很簡單就是你的這個軍種這樣子湊然後呢來的時候的地方你當初的專長到現在又改變然後又重學然後呢你要去的這個地點當初講的跟現在來教授的時候又不一樣這件事情要不要解決要不要討論啊怎麼處理啊"},{"start":647.887,"end":668.027,"text":"我們編時當然就是優先滿足然後再來是擴編動員然後他最後才是戰號梯隊那他這個這個後勛重心他是屬於擴編動員所以說編時選完的他剩下的並沒有那麼多那麼多原本是這個單位的原本是這個單位的所以說我們就擴大選員來重拾這個擴編動員的這個部隊"},{"start":672.631,"end":700.243,"text":"也就是說跟委員報告啦現在就是說國安部的我這邊的政策很簡單就是說第一個指名指名的部分那是屬於最需要的指名的他不一定要原兵歸原位那接下來辨識動員的部分原則上原兵歸原位因為就是主戰部隊或者是這個常備部隊裡面他要辨識動員讓他形成集戰力擴編動員的部分我必須誠實的跟委員報告擴編動員的部分現在還有很多努力的空間尤其是要結合這一個"},{"start":701.084,"end":714.278,"text":"過去我們四個月我們現在看的是過去的四個月軍事訓練役他確實的訓練的不足以及未來一年期義務役如何能夠真實的編到擴編動員不管是手臂旅的部分還是後臂旅的部分我們這些部分"},{"start":715.8,"end":723.245,"text":"手臂理的部分我們也要利用一年期一物一把它編實那後續還有一些相關的擴編動作所以這些部分我必須承認我們還有很多進步的空間這個進步的空間是源自於我們過去長期的四個月的軍事訓練的訓練不足"},{"start":732.811,"end":737.478,"text":"的情況之下所造成的而我們必須要利用一點時間去逐步的透過這個政策的改進然後執行的經時然後再能夠透過實戰化的訓練才能夠達到真正的後備的即戰力我同意你的說法但是因為現在教招已經上路了"},{"start":748.915,"end":760.889,"text":"這些招員也是已經都14天14天的都去了那如果是有這個狀況的話你們在一開始在召集大家的時候也應該在一開始的時候要把整體就是說現在面臨的這個情況跟大家說清楚因為很多的招員他是覺得很疑惑就是說我的編組我先前的專長跟我未來被分到的地點"},{"start":769.619,"end":792.556,"text":"那不斷的調動他自己都搞得很混亂了所以當然有努力的空間這個也需要時間我們都願意給國防部時間但對於實際上已經參與的叫招的招員而言這個部分還是需要跟他們做說明的最後因為我剛講三個部分待遇部隊編制最後一個是個人裝備我們現在叫招的公發的野戰戰棚因為我時間不夠的關係我直接講"},{"start":795.618,"end":805.554,"text":"在175公分以上的身高躺在這個野戰帳篷裡面他的腳是無法伸直躺平的請問各位長官知道這件事情嗎"},{"start":810.359,"end":832.759,"text":"有修改的空間嗎沒有也可以直接告訴我我就是了解一下因為蠻多招員在反映說身高稍微你不要說比較高啦一般高的175公分的這個招員他們在公發的野戰帳篷裡面14天當中他這個整個過程齁那基本上都是腳沒有辦法躺平的這個狀態"},{"start":837.59,"end":858.384,"text":"市長這個部分我們下去了解完之後請你們下去了解好嗎因為針對這一梯次的因為有這個這個招員他提出薪資問題之後那當然我們對於這一次包含是他的薪資部隊編制以及他的個人裝備我們都去做了一個了解台灣男性成年平均的身高是172.1公分"},{"start":860.265,"end":876.559,"text":"如果175公分的男性他就沒有辦法在帳篷裡面躺平那我們的整個設備上面可能是有需要調整的所以這個部分麻煩齁我知道你們需要時間去調查了解但請給我一個時間然後給我確切的回覆好嗎因為我時間也不是很夠了"},{"start":877.119,"end":895.57,"text":"報告委員兩週之內可以回覆好 謝謝那這個就招的部分部長您也提到了有一些需要精進的空間那我們會給國防部時間但是招員向我們反應的事情我也有責任在這裡幫招員向我們的國防部去反應希望國防部能夠越做越好好 謝謝委員謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168033","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168033","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d0265d86f2f18c6739e4a1d955de643b7f5bc5cff238b3beb7080941cab810cc8618b4638536ef0d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王義川","委員發言時間":"11:37:20 - 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謝謝主席 我們請顧部長請顧部長是 王偉部長就在我們這個執行的這個當下這個美國的參議院的跨黨派的議員現在正在總統府跟總統在討論相關的事情這個事情官部瞭解他們最主要執行的目的為何"},{"start":32.176,"end":59.935,"text":"我想參議員來訪這個跨黨派的這個議員來訪表示對我們的台灣的支持我想這個是幾乎是在我看起來是不分黨派那對我們要增強我們的這個國防的實力然後來在印太參與這個集體嚇阻然後增強我們的防衛的實力我想他們也應該是要表達的就是要支持我們"},{"start":60.935,"end":84.651,"text":"不斷的持續增強我們的防衛實力來共同在印太地區不要形成破口能夠有效的來維持印太區域以及台海的和平穩定好,那就在這一個同時國民黨的主席鄭麗文宣布4月7號要上北京去討論"},{"start":87.283,"end":112.038,"text":"這個不管什麼事情啦齁東西就對了有美國的議員來啊國民黨說要串團啊去這個北京按照現在立法院的時程啊這個禮拜三可能會召集國防特別條例的朝野協商啊因為大陣子拜五啊大清明節、兒童節、放假嘛齁所以最快分隊啊"},{"start":113.908,"end":126.472,"text":"我們這是後禮拜五你歡迎就得利,就應該通過國防特別條例啦那叫大家花時間就是這樣啊國民黨剛才曾立文又要撤退了,沒關係沒關係,這一定又拖下去啦我算過時程最快最快啦啊我們知道國民黨,國民黨去,董主席去,不可能這立委不去啦這立委一定會去,啊這立委如果去,哇這你歡迎"},{"start":143.356,"end":166.039,"text":"要二讀三讀,這我看困難,我算過差不多四月十七,到可能通過四月十七通過後,你們就再上議程那如果按照這個時程,剛剛部長有提到,這一個海馬仕這事情可能五月底,你們有一個退論的時間,差不多五月底你看這個有越來越緊急"},{"start":168.567,"end":178.379,"text":"有沒有覺得這個事情,因為我們這個市長啊,說我們有算過差不多五月底嘛,市長這段時間啊,這麼辛苦,讓美國人在抄襲的事情,我看這個美國人,叫我們台灣人講話就是說,還給你最好一道機會啦,還給你最好一道機會"},{"start":187.813,"end":198.221,"text":"你看這個五月底如果按照立法院這個時程國安部可能要花更多力跟這個國民黨溝通喔市長啊部長你有什麼看法"},{"start":200.976,"end":226.53,"text":"我們只能說有一些關鍵的包括能力的那個建構的項目還有那個上限的這個金額看起來是現在還沒辦法得到交集那我是期望能夠盡快進行這個協商的時候這個部分能夠有所交集那我還是在這邊呼籲說"},{"start":228.551,"end":242.701,"text":"條例的一兆兩千五百億這個條例案能夠通過那我們等預算報上來之後那大家再跟各位持續溝通那我們當然希望希望能夠在"},{"start":244.793,"end":261.139,"text":"最好能夠在四月就會有一個好的結果因為剛才你說一般花架書的事情一開始兩邊如果有這個初步的討論那基本上立法院就有可能開始審議,就開始變以上,以上通過之後花架書才會來"},{"start":265.741,"end":280.714,"text":"發家書來大家簽約納籍嘛大概是這樣的一個順序嘛我們對那個建案的程序是先建案建案建案之後我們把建案文件送行證核定之後送醫生等禮拜禮拜之後"},{"start":282.376,"end":307.038,"text":"你看他先選,選後看過程當中,如果涉及軍購的部分,看他有沒有智慧國會,如果有智慧國會,預算也可以公開,如果沒有智慧國會,就用經營預算來審所以意思是說,普通都是預算先過後,才有發價數你講的是過去的做法?正常的這次拖延的是國防部嗎?"},{"start":308.717,"end":311.76,"text":"你怎麼知道要上什麼條例?我們已經11月就上了所以拖延的不是你們?我們是希望說,本來是希望說上禮拜後就可以...那我這樣問好了,過去如果像你們11月送進來,過去相關的這些東西,你差不多幾個月內立法院議程就會通過?跟之前的經驗?"},{"start":340.414,"end":361.402,"text":"如果以前面那個海空戰力提升跟F16V BLOCK擺動的這兩個案子通常在八月底左右條例送進來十月底到十一月初之間那個預算會通過三個月這樣子看起來大概是三個多月接近四個月三四個月嘛對 條例加預算轉播啦轉播就是說從你們"},{"start":365.771,"end":387.743,"text":"送進立法院開始大概四個月應該預算會完成然後後面這個相關包括發價書也是在那個後面因為重點還是後面的那個預算書表因為裡面有很多項目在過去審議的過程當中委員會非常認真的針對每一個項目去有項目有數量有金額嘛對全部"},{"start":388.223,"end":411.45,"text":"所以這次算李煥宜有托到啦不過這個還是要請部長跟市長再多費點心啦阿不然沒辦法啦,你像今天盧秀恩講的,盧秀恩講的都假的啦盧秀恩講的你要收驚很多啊我們上禮拜三、四天,九一日我委員講八千一百一九九千一一日就沒有啦"},{"start":412.503,"end":419.933,"text":"那些都是假的,那些都是以前假的,重點是他們八千億、百億、九千億,經歷百三天,連一個人說就沒有,所以你們要預作一個準備,就是說林煥英如果真的通過實行,只有三千八百億,看你們要怎樣"},{"start":430.387,"end":435.51,"text":"施長你看你什麼,不是說回去你說,你如果叫美國人通電話的時候,人家說你不是跟我講的很多,要3800億,施長你這樣沒誠信這事情可能要想想看,我想你叫美國人講的時候,應該是一直拜託,說我們有些時間,我們國內有我們國內"},{"start":452.84,"end":478.413,"text":"審查的這個過程,快了快了快了,應該快了,我們要溝通可能有這樣的對話出現,但是真的通過3800億這市長你跟美國人說話,我看有多麻煩這可能對我們國家,搞美國之間的誠信問題因為我知道你們很期待立法院趕快把這個事情"},{"start":480.374,"end":507.252,"text":"條例通過預算送進來然後審議然後完成這個預算的這個書表都通過之後你們才有辦法跟美國跟其他國家有後續的商討嘛應該是這樣啦好最後啊請這個部長跟相關的單位啊可以有人問到這個極致顧問的事情這個公司當然對在國安部相關的單位裡頭啊"},{"start":508.683,"end":535.86,"text":"得標的案子只有兩件啦可是他們投標的案子不是只有兩件啦有投公報相關的投標的啦,不是投標的啦他們也投了法務部的案子他們也投了榮總的案子他們也投了高速公路局的案子這些案子的案名看起來啊大部分都跟資料庫有關"},{"start":538.078,"end":560.88,"text":"所以尤其顧問簿,有些小額的,一百萬一人,一百萬一十萬的不要輕忽尤其後面如果要讀到我們裡面相關的資料庫的這個大家都要特別注意一下,因為你是顧問簿所以這一些在提醒裡面要特別的注意不要說這間公司啦,就是說"},{"start":562.722,"end":575.803,"text":"有時候你們用最低標啦,有時候有評選啦,看起來那個薪額對共和國相關的單位來說,也沒有多啦就不要輕忽,因為那個都會進去處理到資料庫的問題好,義雄謝謝好謝謝,謝謝委員提醒"}]}},{"id":"168032","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168032","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d0265d86f2f18c67a0ca52f4d24345565334e86b5f84e1acb7080941cab810cc8618b4638536ef0d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳玉珍","委員發言時間":"11:36:52 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兩千啊 一千啊那硬幣不改版兩千 一千兩千 一千 五百 兩百 一百五個面額全面要改喔對 因為我跟委員報告"},{"start":44.167,"end":71.58,"text":"要花多少錢要花多少錢多少預算我們這樣的話呢每張大概成本會增加1.5塊總共要花多少預算這個還不曉得大概有沒有個Range沒有沒有是指三千萬五千萬因為有時候網路流行很大的現在總量是什麼樣都還不曉得所以你沒有一個預算嗎改版沒有一個預算嗎三千萬五千萬三億五億三十億五十億我們還沒有編預算三百億五百億你有沒有一個概念"},{"start":72.501,"end":79.367,"text":"有概念嗎我想我這個謹慎一點大概 哪個範圍110到510110到510我一講的時候到時候又順順不是 你沒有概念怎麼要那個什麼要改本要花那麼多錢然後就又再做文章來 這個第一個你心裡要有概念嗎我認為這是適當的沒有 你如果打算要做你要知道"},{"start":93.961,"end":115.88,"text":"沒關係 這個還沒有到時候反正要提出來啦第二個那個內容我看到前一陣子有在做什麼調查什麼的那我們國家是中華民國對吧中華民國就有台澎金嘛對不對 台澎金嘛台澎金嘛 你們做改版不只做防衛技術還要重新定義喔 這個台澎金嘛"},{"start":116.661,"end":134.262,"text":"所以代表台風金馬喔沒有啦有台灣嘛有台灣島的一些東西啦那個金門的這個意象請問我你看一下立豪豐富金門的閩南燕尾建築這些東西喔你要跟我們思考一下是是是"},{"start":134.682,"end":160.667,"text":"這是金門的來幹嘛台澎金馬嘛不要只注意台灣有什麼東西不要只注意台灣島有什麼東西離島不要忘記我們是生命共同體我們是一個國家嘛對不對這個金門的水泰很漂亮對啊我都沒有看你們選項裡面有這些東西啊全部都是台灣的一些對不對來看你有些什麼你們票選嘛有19萬人民去票選島嶼生態"},{"start":163.187,"end":190.392,"text":"這個島這個圖上面沒有看到我們的島啊我的島在哪裡我們金門在哪裡對吧保育東民族結晶這個還有一點感覺喔對不對你做這個到時候不要改版出來那個地圖那個新台幣改版只剩下一個台灣島澎湖金門馬祖都不見了中華民國啊台澎金嘛我希望這個央行要幫我們審慎的這個注意這一點你看你們現在的這個"},{"start":192.775,"end":210.323,"text":"這個地圖上你們打算做這個以後的新台幣只有台灣島沒有離島沒有金門沒有馬祖有澎湖啦整個設計都是台灣島101啊什麼地質我們都沒有啊我們有那個水灘啊"},{"start":211.523,"end":235.363,"text":"是不是你要讓我們離島覺得說我們真的是同一個生命共同體嘛如果加一點點離島的元素可以嗎那馬祖的意向在哪裡金門的意向在哪裡是不是要幫我們思考一下不然難道以後我們台幣上面都要印的跟以前一樣現金門地區使用你們這個現台灣地區使用你知道我們金門以前的紙鈔啊你知道嗎我知道啊"},{"start":237.605,"end":262.48,"text":"什麼寫 限金門必須使用我知道啊所以金門也出現了所以金門也出現了就金門兩個那你以後要印新的你改版後要再印出限金門必須使用沒有嘛對不對 那個以前戰略中的時代所以我們希望你們在考慮這個新的改版的時候一定要把離島考慮進去我們有很多意向嘛那我們才會覺得我們是生命共同體嘛對不對 不要只有台灣的與會台灣島的與會嘛好嗎"},{"start":265.462,"end":283.72,"text":"請你幫我們慎重考慮我們有水撻、有保育、有生態我們有麗和豐湖你們那個是地支我們是麗和豐湖我們有銀城房我們有閩南的建築非常好看這個一定要記得共同的概念"},{"start":287.884,"end":303.596,"text":"這我的助理弄出來的澎湖的玄武岩啊這個馬祖的藍眼淚啊金門的這個水撻這樣是不是把台澎金馬都加進去請你考慮領導人的這個想法展現中華民國是有台澎金馬才可以"},{"start":304.376,"end":307.619,"text":"才不會讓李導覺得這個我們現在請財經公司 請慎重考慮考慮李導的那個想法才不會覺得所有東西我們都好像沒有被畫在一起來 財經公司 謝謝"},{"start":322.648,"end":341.313,"text":"董事長 我們這裡面要去考察貴公司需要考慮一個智慧金門的事情 數位增新以前發行資本券有很多高行政成本 場所受限 房位什麼各方面現在走向數位經濟"},{"start":344.114,"end":349.502,"text":"有很多的好處那我要跟您探討一下我現在講的這些想跟您探討那當然禮拜四的時候也希望歡迎可以幫我們做相關的研究現在你們有TWQR 台灣碼"},{"start":359.356,"end":375.944,"text":"一碼通 對吧我看這個做得不錯就是有可以讓 而且有讓商家升級那我看財政部也有說如果用電子支付的話數位支付的話可能在稅的方面 在小額商家的 小的小規模營業額上面可以給一點這個"},{"start":377.685,"end":398.479,"text":"稅務上的優惠但是這時候後面的你們這個系統就相當重要了當然如果用電子稅務支付的話會有很多很多好處那我來跟你講一下金門現在的情形我們金門現在有很多社會的福利社會福利就包括您看一下包括觀光"},{"start":402.922,"end":413.67,"text":"這個金門希望以後要做這個數位券我們現在有券嘛 你知道我們金門有很多的券我們有感恩券 就配酒的酒券 就是三結酒都有那個 您知道嗎"},{"start":416.379,"end":419.723,"text":"五十五歲到六十四歲每一年會發三萬六千元每一節都會發錢每一節都還會"},{"start":431.235,"end":448.134,"text":"可以售酒是賣的但是用酒券然後還有當然基本上很多社會福利措施不管這個那個各方面的非常多的社會福利措施這個從現在開始講到下午可能講不完但是這個東西要走向數位化所以我們希望"},{"start":449.415,"end":452.977,"text":"藉由我們財經公司的專業人力幫我們做一個整合的數位平台我們有醫療長照的補貼我們有交通觀光基本有交通觀光的補貼像台灣在講這個什麼營養午餐免費我們30年前就可以做了還有我們有公車免費 船免費兩塊 沒有免費 保險"},{"start":468.604,"end":489.32,"text":"那還有各式各樣的這個補貼交通 敬老的津貼比如說一百多歲領七千 九千這些就學每一個學期學生都發交通券 圖書券然後感恩券就是這個酒還有預算我們希望這個財經公司可以幫我們思考一下後面這個整個這個部分"},{"start":490.04,"end":515.637,"text":"那金門是一個很好實驗這個數位化的地方是的您知道我的意思嗎那你們做這麼多財經這個公司做這麼多研究那我感覺上在現在台灣整個普遍市面上好像也沒有用的很普遍啦就是有但是還不夠普遍那是不是在這個部分台積金公司可以特別幫忙思考一下事實上你可以做一個類似一個實驗的地方是"},{"start":516.897,"end":541.612,"text":"是 我們再跟委員請教我們對金門的這個如果要發這個券的話怎麼跟我們的數位這個平台結合然後做一個研究對 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是不是一個秀肌肉的好機會喔 是事實上我們沒有這個意思我們沒有這個意思我們發現說我們外匯存體持續在高升可是為什麼全世界很多國家外匯存體不升還減"},{"start":50.228,"end":66.308,"text":"有的國家的外匯存底不升還減也有一些的國家是確實是因為他的資金流出去太多第二個他的外匯存底投資的成效不夠好"},{"start":69.221,"end":94.293,"text":"黃金跟我們的儲備是這樣有不同的幣別黃金等等大概這五年前到現在產生了若干的變化很多人看在買黃金你看全世界我們講這五年來黃金購入買最多的是哪幾個國家"},{"start":96.505,"end":117.745,"text":"大概是Russia跟中國大陸的中國大陸跟Russia德國有沒有買?沒有,德國沒有買,美國沒有買,英國也沒有買這些先進的國家都沒有買,日本也沒有買法國好像也沒有買南韓?"},{"start":118.866,"end":142.034,"text":"南韓沒有買最近沒有買好像他前一波有買他前一波的時候有買不過那一次他買的時候據我了解他買的時候是低但是他有上漲但是後來下來他嚇了一跳"},{"start":143.465,"end":168.365,"text":"結果後來他就不敢買但是後來黃金的價格一直上去黃金漲了那麼多央行有沒有買我們沒有買我們跟其他主要的國家來比較的時候我們都沒有買所以總裁你對美元是不是有很大的信心"},{"start":172.007,"end":194.061,"text":"也不是說我對美元有特別的信心那也不是說對它沒有信心我們是比較了各個幣別來講的話相對的那也不是說因為我們對美元有絕對的信心然後我們的外匯存底美元的部位才會比較大不過我跟委員報告了"},{"start":194.864,"end":218.103,"text":"我們的進出口廠商百分之九十到九十五它的報價都是用什麼它都是用美元那如果說在這種它的報價都是百分之九十到九十五都是用美元來報價的時候呢那我們的外匯存體是不是也要因應它那所以呢如果說我們把它降到百分之八十"},{"start":219.251,"end":245.203,"text":"你也不能就說我們對美元特別有信心這是第一點也就是說我們的進出口廠商他大部分的報價都是用美元的時候那當然我們的存底就是以美元為主這是第一點第二點以整個全球的一個貨幣制度來看的話呢美元他就是共同的貨幣現在全世界你的說法最強就是美元"},{"start":246.063,"end":263.358,"text":"所以我們外匯存體持有美元的比重也很高啊那當然啊我剛剛在說第一個我們的進出口廠商的報價大部分90%到95%都是用美元啊那我看你也很聰明啊你美元大概我們持有有沒有65%什麼"},{"start":265.834,"end":283.876,"text":"美元的持有,占我們的外匯存底有沒有65%?應該有有沒有接近七成?應該有有啊,好像比重又變高了應該有啊那占七成,那其他百分之三十是什麼?這就我們diversify"},{"start":284.577,"end":285.798,"text":"第二比重的話我們要看情況有的時候是歐元 有些時候是人民幣 有些時候是其他的貨幣"},{"start":308.249,"end":330.521,"text":"為什麼你會想持有人民幣因為我跟委員報告啦人民幣是因為我們台灣跟中國大陸的一個貿易呢他的這個要清算的時候呢人民幣就是本身他就因為我們跟他的貿易很大所以也就是說我們也必須要握有部分的人民幣作為"},{"start":331.562,"end":355.283,"text":"我們的廠商跟中國大陸的一個廠商的清算人民幣的持有有沒有佔百分之五上上下下上上下?那Range大概有多少Range有沒有超過3%我現在忘了啦 待會底下的時候我再告訴你我跟委員報告你會不會再加持人民幣"},{"start":356.784,"end":371.902,"text":"你會不會再增加持有人民幣我跟委員報告人民幣以前我們會多持有它有兩個因素第一個因素就是說我們跟中國大陸的一個貿易的往來大"},{"start":372.54,"end":388.157,"text":"而且我們的廠商有一些它的收支有一部分是用人民幣這是第一點第二點當時的人民幣的利率非常高好像甚至都比美銀高"},{"start":389.458,"end":403.411,"text":"所以在這種情況之下我們都有一個比重就是歐元人民幣後來就下降下來為什麼會下降下來現在下降多少下降下來我現在不太曉得今天有沒有剩大概5%"},{"start":405.012,"end":420.361,"text":"應該是低一點歐元的持有大概有多少歐元的持有也大概是差不多我們大部分第二個就是說我們第二個幣幣我同事告訴我我們第二個幣幣就是歐元第二個是歐元第三個是人民幣第四個"},{"start":422.422,"end":427.285,"text":"我們第四個的話就是說英鎊、澳幣、日元這些都是有加幣也有也蠻多元化的啦你會不會考慮說現在全世界變化很快美伊戰爭、俄烏戰爭打完以後"},{"start":449.775,"end":465.824,"text":"美金會不會變弱?因為全世界都贊成啊這個委員做這樣的一個預測我記得啊不知道對不對我記得啊就是說去年初去年初或是去年中以後大家就說美國要降息所以美元都會會弱"},{"start":470.566,"end":479.252,"text":"但是好像也沒有這麼一回事從最近來看的話它的指數是降到96但是最近都又跑到100以上所以我跟委員報告匯率的預測很難你要在這邊叫我來預測說美元會強會弱誰知道美元發行的基礎它是用"},{"start":499.421,"end":520.096,"text":"黃金來做發行準備對不對也不是那美國發行美金是用什麼做準備我跟委員報告等一下那我們新台幣的發行是用什麼我們是用黃金做準備黃金還有我們的外存底黃金很好啦因為一閃一閃亮晶晶我們黃金有多少噸我們黃金有480幾噸"},{"start":530.44,"end":537.668,"text":"423噸423好像是一個護國神山我們台幣的護國神山有沒有減少我們沒有減少有沒有增加沒有增加"},{"start":544.295,"end":559.271,"text":"我們手上都是美金美債那你會不會考慮說萬一萬一美元來一天因為走強以後就必定會走弱嘛你會不會把手上"},{"start":559.952,"end":574.606,"text":"的外匯存底來轉化來買一些黃金我們也有考慮只是說有考慮還沒做是還沒有做而已考慮那個點大概什麼時候會做我怎麼會曉得只是說我們認為"},{"start":576.067,"end":589.993,"text":"我們認為就是說我們覺得是一個很好的時機是很好的時點的時候呢中央銀行會進去我從來沒有聽過你講這句話但是我跟委員報告黃金貴不貴黃金貴不貴以現在來講的話我總覺得它是貴現在貴喔所以你覺得現在貴貴與不貴事實上跟現在我們都是靠美金美元可是"},{"start":606.048,"end":632.857,"text":"總裁啊美國他的黃金儲備啊他黃金還在不在啊他在啊你有見過嗎我看過啊你到哪裡看的我看過我在美國看的美國有四個地方你在哪個地方看到我在紐約看的紐約紐約他是因為聯邦銀行的這個說黃金放那邊嗎對啦那個不是最大宗對啦最大宗是在肯特基吧"},{"start":634.719,"end":649.115,"text":"這個我就不曉得啦反正我看過啦肯特基那個量是最大的連那個川普啊他Elon Musk上去的時候說50年沒人去看過黃金部長還在不在是啦 應該在啦應該在喔"},{"start":651.957,"end":668.288,"text":"眼見為憑 改天你可不可以帶我們去看一下我想中央銀行 全球的中央銀行都是很謹慎的啦所以你們懷疑中央銀行還在不在啊那當然在啊我們台灣的我應該覺得我有去看過啦我們主席也去看過"},{"start":669.332,"end":690.541,"text":"可是美國的我沒去看過啊 總裁你也沒看過啊不過我將心比心啦 中央銀行都是很謹慎的啦謝謝 榮民財委員那個總裁最後一句話萬一如果去看 黃金不在對美元會產生什麼樣的變化 下期分解下次再跟我說 這個機率是零啦好 謝謝"},{"start":695.914,"end":704.333,"text":"我因為對他們非常有信心所以我在財政委員會14年了但是我沒有去過他們新店文員來 下一個諮詢委員請陳玉珍委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"168038","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168038","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d0265d86f2f18c6711a075a2bf9aeb0c5334e86b5f84e1ac36fc5662b4090cd642b2a9aabf465d0c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪毓祥","委員發言時間":"12:05:03 - 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謝謝主席我請這個總裁請周一航楊總裁"},{"start":19.525,"end":35.418,"text":"我是把這個央行的業務報告整個看完我想在這個第14頁來講的話根據央行的一個報告我們去年的CPI是1.66%今年大概是預估1.8%"},{"start":37.159,"end":51.705,"text":"但是我們在同一份報告也承認整個去年拉高這個物價的主因大概就是外食跟房租它其實貢獻了我們CPR上升大概1.35個百分點也就是大概佔比是81%"},{"start":53.186,"end":75.004,"text":"那我們再看今年的話其實核心的CPI大概也是1.93最有感的還是外使房租大概還有最近的因為油電這些上漲那可能我們還有交通費這些東西那所以呢我們在看的是說整個央行會不會是說在這整個我們這個通膨的溫和"},{"start":77.526,"end":96.092,"text":"比較是存在報表上就是人民的生活的感受是不是因為我們可能會低估所以基本上來講就是說想請教這個總裁從我們小老百姓到底這樣子的央行的政策有沒有辦法去減輕我們一些的痛點"},{"start":98.606,"end":112.476,"text":"委員問得也很好 這個就是說一般的百姓跟我們中央銀行的這個數據來對比的時候總覺得好像是有落差"},{"start":113.897,"end":131.615,"text":"那當然就是說從這三項來看的話就跟我們的民生的問題很有關聯而且都漲得比較高但是整體來講的話沒有那麼高那我們中央銀行的決策都是按照整體的來做決定"},{"start":134.898,"end":149.785,"text":"那我想第一個我必須要說明的是全球的中央銀行基本上都是以整體的通膨來看的他沒辦法針對某一項某一項那跟民眾比較有關係的第一個我們看就是說"},{"start":150.445,"end":174.291,"text":"那主計總署他也有發布除了就總部全部的那個CPI的那個總指數以外的通膨率以外呢他也編列了這個負有的那個次負有的還有就是說比較比較所得比較低的他的通膨怎麼樣他也是會反映出低所得者的通膨率比較高明白"},{"start":175.851,"end":202.962,"text":"因為央行的政策還是總體的控制嘛但是說如果總裁有一些高見也可以影響一些部會啦如果貴商一下因為我覺得苦民所苦還是很重要但我們每次調查民眾都覺得你講這個都聽不懂是是是沒有錯沒有錯就說另外呢在央行的報告裡面國際的油價預測從每桶58.3到上修到85可能還會再增加啦對那"},{"start":203.682,"end":225.362,"text":"這樣子的話大概就是拉高了我們CPI大概0.52個百分比但是我們靠著比如說台電、中油這樣的吸收專案還漲甚至減稅我們把它壓到影響大概0.17個百分比但是你會看出來這個是現在的溫和大概是靠政府的吸收跟國營事業虧損出來的一個幻象"},{"start":226.82,"end":246.491,"text":"那我的意思是說如果我們油價繼續攀漲這個雙環漲的機制我不曉得還能撐多久因為最終你這電價調整財政的補貼或國庫的稅收最後還是要回到我們人民的身上或者納稅所以我想說看這個央行總裁有沒有什麼樣的高見"},{"start":248.152,"end":257.618,"text":"我跟委員報告 基本上政府用這樣的 所以我跟委員在我回答這個議題之前我先跟委員報告一下就是說在俄烏戰爭的時候 台灣行政院也用這樣的一個機制來控制我們的通膨"},{"start":271.068,"end":290.144,"text":"這個也不是新招 以前我們的穩定的物價這個就是說供給面的問題就必須要用供給面的政策來對付它中美銀行的利率政策是要抑制需求反而是不好的所以應該是政府來做這件事那我們就用俄烏戰爭的這個例子來說明"},{"start":294.327,"end":301.951,"text":"當時就是說用這樣的來政府用管帳的一個機制的時候你看看"},{"start":303.98,"end":322.748,"text":"2020年到2025年呢我們台灣的平均的這個通膨率是1.85沒關係那個總裁因為時間有限所以可能在報告上面所以我的意思就是說政府是還是必要的還是要必要的明白最後一個我只有最後一個小問題"},{"start":325.069,"end":344.17,"text":"就是因為我們產業發展的事因為我也來自資訊產業我們經濟成長率大概8.68%反正就是我們AI資訊半導體一個人的50%但是也從你的報告看到我們其他服務業的薪資的增長是差2.81%所以我們這種薪資停滯的痛苦有沒有什麼高見"},{"start":346.373,"end":359.69,"text":"如果說我們的薪資停滯基本上這幾年來講相對前幾年來講的話我們現在的我知道 我知道我們科技也很好 但服務也不好是對啦 當然啦"},{"start":361.552,"end":387.365,"text":"所以我們有廣大百分之七十幾的民眾是覺得跟我沒關係不好是相對的啦跟製造業來比較跟電子業來比較它是比較不好但是相較它還是我不耽誤其他的時間我想央行總裁也可以就這樣子的東西給我們一些見解最後這一個我就請書面報告就是請這個財經公司的"},{"start":389.366,"end":408.015,"text":"就是去年1月的質詢這個過濾費15塊我想要知道進度如何再跟我提供書面報告好不好好謝謝謝謝謝謝委員謝謝洪委員再來請林祖義委員質詢林祖義委員林祖義委員不在請洪孟楷委員"}]}},{"id":"168023","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168023","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d0265d86f2f18c67ec71d6933509ef1a117671a01da40a13b7080941cab810cc17444451dbb786d95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"10:59:24 - 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我們近年來 尤其是這三年來 狼醫事件不斷發生我這裡的三個新聞 左邊這個就是陳情人那他們找我一起來開記者會因為台大婦產科名醫 他被這些人控訴性侵性猥褻至少六位女性 你看這個照片中 就是"},{"start":67.204,"end":91.781,"text":"我這邊有出奇的就是有三位女性那她們是藥廠的業務那事實上這位醫師至少性侵跟性猥褻的至少六位女性那是就是在酒中下迷藥然後醒來的時候她們已經在旅館中全身赤裸那這麼嚴重的事情那當時一直有非常多的問題"},{"start":92.501,"end":119.787,"text":"那不只是這件你可以看到中間這個2024同樣是台大的名醫那有六位就是包含政壇大樓的媳婦還有台大的女醫師控訴他們被性騷擾然後在最右邊又是台大醫院性侵性騷案那後來一審判刑三年而且這都是有非常多受害者的"},{"start":120.387,"end":143.658,"text":"那我要講的事情是喔那這件事情之後那其實我們有質詢衛福部衛福部一直表達說民眾有他們同意民眾有資的權利所以要有一個所謂的狼醫平台那可是我們看到這件事情其實還沒有結束剛剛會上新聞可能他們因為是台大的醫生那這裡呢才今年二月上個月"},{"start":144.418,"end":161.505,"text":"新北也出現婦科的狼醫那他居然藏兒少性影像而且包含病患的私密照而且外流的時間長達九年後來被求重刑兩年兩個月以上我想請問"},{"start":163.018,"end":177.344,"text":"高秘書長 如果您是病患或是病患家屬應該覺得有權利要知道我們可以上網查一下就是我的家人要去看的醫師是不是狼醫吧民眾有權知道吧可以簡單答嗎"},{"start":180.815,"end":197.953,"text":"當然我們希望民眾有權知道可是重點是說你個資方面要怎麼去衛福部就這個部分個資方面他到底要怎麼去完整的呈現你的個資是說狼醫的個資要保護嗎"},{"start":199.394,"end":218.903,"text":"判刑確定的其實是會牽涉到不是只有狼醫各種犯罪我現在講的就是醫生就是說如果他是一般人我們並沒有要處理我現在講的是性侵性騷病患的這種狼醫判刑確定後"},{"start":220.103,"end":246.867,"text":"那如果判刑確定是有判決的那我們判決裡面對於被告姓名是不會遮掩的我們現在不是講被告啊我的狼醫平台是說民眾能不能夠被告當然要保護嘛我現在問妳是狼醫對狼醫是被告他的姓名一定出現的一定要不能保護他嗎他不能遮掩的民眾他如果後來繼續職業或者是借了別人的什麼就是說我們應該要讓民眾有知的權利嘛"},{"start":249.169,"end":268.35,"text":"就我們法院這邊的判決來講背後的名字是公佈的我現在問的是那個性侵的狼醫判刑確定之後衛福部要做狼醫平台您同意民眾有權去查我要看的這個婦產科醫師有沒有在那個平台上嗎"},{"start":269.051,"end":291.429,"text":"有沒有記錄嗎我不能夠替衛福部這個回答你不用替衛福部回答你從一個公民的角度 民眾有沒有權利知道我當然希望我知道啊好 你先讓你知道嘛那我先要告訴你問題在哪裡就是民眾民團跟你一樣覺得應該要公開資訊我們有權利不被狼醫看診我們的家人有權利不要去狼醫嗎"},{"start":292.97,"end":315.36,"text":"對那現在呢衛福部依照醫師法應該要就是說它有兩個部分一個是地方的衛生局就要啟動懲戒然後可以把它停業廢照廢證等那我們看得出來衛福部畫出了依照衛福的做法我們辦公室畫出了這個流程看起來很完美事件發生"},{"start":316.741,"end":344.336,"text":"行政調查或者是司法程序行人調查就是譬如說台大的醫師他是台大的教授台大自己就可以調查就是那理論上調查確定就要啟動懲戒司法程序確定也要啟動懲戒那司法程序確定那個狼醫專區就是資訊專區衛福部已經做出來了有很大的新聞告訴大家可是呢你如果去看這個部分的話你會發現"},{"start":347.098,"end":361.089,"text":"這裡面關於司法程序的兩條線是有問題的因為衛福部的專區裡面他們告訴我們他們僅能夠就新聞有報導的找出有公開的判決書"},{"start":362.33,"end":379.705,"text":"如果今天不是台大名醫可能某個地方的醫生沒有人告訴他們媒體沒有報導咦 諮詢專區就沒有欸那那個高秘書長你覺得這會不會是個問題難道只有上新聞的狼醫民眾有權利知道嗎"},{"start":380.965,"end":398.973,"text":"如果就民眾來講當然希望全部都知道當然希望所以從民眾的角度如果是你家人你也希望都知道那我們現在看一下這個是我的辦公室把衛福部弄的狼醫平台這位西醫師你看他的受害者就是相關的醫事人員然後這個就有這麼多人"},{"start":402.894,"end":417.44,"text":"這邊圈起來的是有判決書的因為衛福部的人找得到的然後沒有圈起來的就沒有判決書而且也還沒有懲戒因為相關的資訊是不完整的"},{"start":418.2,"end":433.394,"text":"那這是不是一個問題我們跟衛福部為了這件事情溝通衛福部表示正在和司法院溝通資訊借接因為剛剛也只有2023年後的資料因為他們無法取得請問司法院"},{"start":434.275,"end":457.604,"text":"你們可不可以協助啊這個衛福部好像覺得很為難因為司法院很大跟你們溝通很困難既然您作為秘書長都同意民眾有知的權利我現在講的不是一般人講的是跟病患有不對等權利關係會接觸到很多人的醫師所以不要跟我說這個太麻煩增加你們負擔"},{"start":459.705,"end":475.225,"text":"其實我們都有做你們都有做所以是衛福部講錯了所謂資訊借接這句話我不太了解他的意思可是我們判決如果跟衣食有關的都會送給各地方"},{"start":476.306,"end":499.719,"text":"都有送?政府的衛生局都有送衛生局?對,都有送衛生局那衛生局說他們都沒有收到,現在是哪方面出問題?至於他們要不要公開,那我就沒辦法替他們發言就是我現在並不知道是誰推給誰那比較重要是,既然你說都有做,那也可以一起送給衛福部吧"},{"start":501.104,"end":517.509,"text":"可不可以加一個衛福部如果你說都有送地方衛生局可以啊 如果是我們該送衛福部也可以可以啊 就可以再送給他們而且我們現在也在進行他們所謂的直接借借平台而不是用判決去傳送的這個事項"},{"start":519.81,"end":536.564,"text":"好那反正我現在得到你看監察院都就是說有調查報告那過去光是勞動局北市勞動局就沒有告訴衛生局不過當然那個是另外一個問題所以現在我想講的事情是因為衛生主管機關"},{"start":537.645,"end":562.035,"text":"他們給我的答覆是說他們只能知道從新聞上知道的看起來司法院沒有跟他們借街好那我們認為不能夠像這個案子就是非台大醫院的其他地方的部長說盡速從嚴處理可是也是因為這個事情上新聞所以部長才會被問嘛那我想既然您都已經提到了你們的借街"},{"start":563.803,"end":580.67,"text":"那個高秘書長有承諾會告知不是 我們在109年就已經他們建立相關刑案資訊借接系統那他們現在是希望能夠更好撈取我們也正在做精進的109年更好撈取不是不是 109年就把資訊送給他們"},{"start":583.391,"end":607.289,"text":"妳說他們是衛福部嗎衛福部啊還有台北各地方政府的衛生局所以妳是給他整批資料叫他自己去撈沒有沒有沒有 判決一份一份判決都要送出去啊那他們為什麼會有撈取的問題我的意思是說他們現在要更精進的是希望打這個ID就可以在這個網路裡面直接這個"},{"start":610.111,"end":629.275,"text":"能夠什麼挑出來可是這牽涉到因為我們是給資本嘛那我們將來怎麼用電子檔去建立資料庫然後能夠方便的選出來這是他們現在希望要的對 那我想細節的部分我現在沒辦法釐清到底衛福部講的問題是不是你已經解決的"},{"start":631.576,"end":643.124,"text":"不管怎麼樣那法務部跟司法院這邊可不可以承諾我跟衛福部再次研商如何在醫師起訴跟判決後確實達成資訊流通與借接以確保我們民眾就醫安全這個秘書長您剛講起來聽起來是很願意的可以承諾嗎再開一次會好不好"},{"start":654.911,"end":680.496,"text":"是跟衛福部開會嗎跟衛福部延伸我們現在刑事廳都跟他們積極的就這件事情因為他們給我的不是這樣好不好那法務部也可以吧應該有相關的部分法務部也可以跟委員報告如果那個衛福部他有提出這個要求的話那法務部都會配合跟他們協商看要怎麼樣的一個資訊戒指因為我跟衛福部問他就是說好像這個進度是在跟你們戒接中就是聽起來"},{"start":681.556,"end":706.452,"text":"有剛講這是這兩天我們才上網查的裡面很多判決書是空的嘛因為只能到什麼2023年之後就之前就沒有好那這樣子可以在開示會會議記錄可以給本席一份跟我們司法法治委員嗎好那那個那相關的報告除了會議記錄之外也給我一份報告好嗎好那謝謝好一起加油啊好謝謝范委員"}]}},{"id":"168018","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168018","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d0265d86f2f18c6709221cde9dc821f37f5bc5cff238b3be97994c33887c7127ac6f5c410dd661785ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"馬文君","委員發言時間":"10:30:26 - 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麻煩請部長"},{"start":10.955,"end":30.246,"text":"部長早部長我們今天就是大家關切的重點其實不只是支持國防因為其實我覺得在近幾年我們看得出來因為民進黨委員一直說在野黨好像不夠去支持我們國家的國防"},{"start":30.806,"end":33.089,"text":"或者罔顧國家的安全可是我們回顧這幾年來其實在很多在預算上面或者大家在監督上面其實如果更慎重我想對我們的國防安全"},{"start":45.982,"end":60.173,"text":"還有我們的國家的需求還有軍人的福利其實可能在野黨比執政黨更到位這個部分必須在這裡說明一下因為今天關切的重點我們在於一個更根本的問題"},{"start":61.707,"end":65.928,"text":"目前國防預算的編列是不是仍然建立在作戰需求或者系統分析與實戰驗證之上還是已經變成由預算規模反向去主導建案的配置因為我們在幾次的這些建案裡面我們看到有些狀況已經不是像過去因為我們的作需細分我們的實戰驗證這一次在報告裡面"},{"start":89.375,"end":103.743,"text":"也特別有提到說是因為我們相關的規劃都是這樣逐步形成的而且兼顧我們財政負擔的能力同時報告也明確的提出來未來8年新興急迫需求達到1兆2500億宣稱可以帶動4000億元的產值而且創造大概9萬個"},{"start":110.046,"end":120.541,"text":"就業機會這些內容都寫在國防部自己的專案報告裡面我們看到過去其實我們也常常看到就是我們的國際國照我們的國建國照可以創造好幾萬個就業機會然後我們可以讓我們的"},{"start":126.53,"end":140.888,"text":"國內的產值可以提高可是我們卻都沒有看到那我們在野黨執政黨很多委員一直口口聲聲說只有支持預算才是真正的支持國防這是錯的"},{"start":141.869,"end":144.39,"text":"會有很多發生問題的狀況他們卻過了以後從來都沒有再提過一次我們剛剛講的國機國造我們剛剛講的國艦國造我們剛剛講的很多我們戰機的採購還有包括我們彈藥的來源還包括我們飛彈我們所有"},{"start":160.974,"end":185.271,"text":"像我們常常提的包括國防部自己提現在目前至少承認的這三項延宕的這個部分其實它對我們國內的戰力都造成非常大的影響當時都說這個可能會產生如果沒有及時去獲得的話它大概都會對我們造成安全上非常大的一個傷害可是現在呢沒有人在乎"},{"start":186.312,"end":202.001,"text":"只在乎未來要用的錢可是在這個部分所以我們這裡要特別提出來說明我們監督我們只是讓國防部更有條件去做談判過去的國防部其實都是這樣做的而且成效不錯"},{"start":202.921,"end":215.788,"text":"反而近幾年我們什麼都不敢講然後只是一味的付錢這個才是我們最擔心的我們認為在這個部分裡面好像有一些部分其實是錯誤的當然總預算還沒有審查通過我們說在預備金上面沒有辦法動吃可是我想請教的是我們有很多在延宕的一些軍購案裡面其實它有很多的"},{"start":230.676,"end":242.782,"text":"預算你們說都沒有付出去嗎不管是在我們自己手上可控的資金或者已經轉到美國聯邦儲蓄銀行裡面的像這些都不可以用嗎"},{"start":244.219,"end":272.225,"text":"這就涉及審計部門的那個意見了這一點如果委員應該要問到是我們在美的資金帳戶的部分那在美的資金帳戶的部分我們確實也有思考到但是這個部分我想一定要審計單位要能夠同意那當然如果有立法院因為他就是一筆歸一筆的我想這個主計可以再做一個衝突因為過去我們被"},{"start":275.242,"end":281.685,"text":"包委員我主席局局長我先跟委員報告有關你們剛剛部長其實已經有點到了就是這個部分如果審計單位有意見你們又覺得那麼重要因為你們在要這筆預算的時候非常的強力的訴求這是很重要的所以我們有那麼多的錢放在那裡不能用不能動用那框死在那裡這個也是我們現在要談的"},{"start":300.336,"end":319.964,"text":"今天如果我們過去有這麼多的錢放在那裡然後你連動都不能動那些已經框死在那裡的再加上我們現在又要框死一大筆預算然後如果他真的沒有到位他沒有辦法及時提供的時候我們有更多的錢是框死在那裡這是第一點如果你們連那個都不能用那你來告訴大家說這個錢"},{"start":323.906,"end":329.45,"text":"還可以活用然後我們不會有其他的疑慮如果未來八年你這麼大筆真的通過你的一兆兩千五百億到時候真的沒有到位而且又拖了很長的時間不要在這裡跟我們說那個一定可以如期如質因為我們看到的所有的很多都沒有如期如質如實所以如果像這個你們都沒有辦法保證那你自己的錢又不能動用雖然還沒有全部付給美國可是你就卡死在那裡這是第一點"},{"start":353.308,"end":372.355,"text":"第二點 3800億裡面 或者民眾黨的4000億不管是國民黨的版本 或者民眾黨的版本其實這一次美國第一階段通過的111億美元他其中 這是八項 111億美元是八項同意的軍售案 對不對這是八項嘛 111億啊"},{"start":378.42,"end":392.741,"text":"對啦111億你說那個匡列在國民黨黨版的那個8項不是不是我說美國這一次同意的111億美元就是同意8項嘛對那有5項我們是要列入特別預算嘛部長"},{"start":393.542,"end":408.42,"text":"我們現在來看111億美元五項放在特別預算其中有三項放在我們的公務預算裡面在特別預算裡面的這五項其實它只有九十幾億如果換算下來它至少還有600億的可用"},{"start":410.823,"end":418.072,"text":"的金額其實是可以去使用的假設如果像你們剛剛在質疑的說萬一他第二階段突然在很快的時間然後公告了以後我們的頭期款又付不出來錯如果這個部分很快你們可以在時間內大家如果協商同意"},{"start":430.259,"end":435.306,"text":"我們沒有反對它只是它的程序的問題我們現在要的是更務實的去掌握我們的預算支出剛剛你們有提到就是我們質疑的部分嘛如果你沒有辦法有效的運用那你框死在那裡對我們是不利的第二個"},{"start":447.042,"end":467.908,"text":"如果通過不管是國民黨或民眾黨的版本第一階段沒有人說不支持後續的啊可是你一步一步的來因為大家還沒有共識的情況之下最快的就是你通過以後其實它至少有六百億以上的可用的餘額之間您講的六百億是在美國的那個不是不是所以您剛剛講的六百億是指"},{"start":470.009,"end":477.03,"text":"我們現在有三千八百億或四千億對不對那你說你現在列的那個三千八百億貴重的擋板的裡面這個三千八百億就是說如果現在其實我們放在那個特別預算裡面其實只有五項那五項其實只有九十幾億美金算你九十幾億的美金大概三千"},{"start":493.914,"end":494.314,"text":"國會授權是授權我們動用哪一筆錢因為你預算案還沒過啊"},{"start":515.41,"end":522.433,"text":"你可以把預算通過我現在講的就是如果你預算通過部長你們聽清楚我現在講的是我現在講的是那個金額裡面包含的部分其實已經放大很多不會是剛剛夠的因為你們之前在那裡算匯率算什麼其他的就這個部分我想其實也要理清楚所以不是他沒有辦法如果他來不及不要怪在野黨其實堅持過不了"},{"start":543.743,"end":548.965,"text":"的版本其實才是真正去擋美國的軍購對於對美的軍購或者對美採購的武器項目或者我們應該合理獲得的這些武器裝備我們都沒有意見可是我們希望是在合理透明的監督之下對於國家才是真正有利的我們看到很多過去的案例"},{"start":567.29,"end":569.651,"text":"因為我們檢視近年的建案跟採購實務看到一個值得高度警惕的現象就是說我們通過很大筆的預算可是它不完全是有作戰需求去推導出來的而是感覺像先確定預算規模然後再回頭去把它填一些項目內容這個是我們比較擔心的"},{"start":588.936,"end":592.199,"text":"那我們這一次在推出的八年期的一兆兩千五百億的內容裡面我們看到的大概就是彈藥或者其他可能還要雙邊合作或者還有什麼其他的內容有些不清不楚太模糊所以我們沒有辦法去做這樣子的一個審視可是這個內容"},{"start":608.274,"end":617.46,"text":"大部分都是屬於長期而且可預期而且是跨年度的支出我們卻用特別預算的方式處理特別預算本來應該用在緊急而且不可預測的重大事項裡面如果把長期規劃性的支出放在特別預算雖然可以減輕年度的預算壓力可是也削弱我們審查跟監督的強度為什麼審查跟監督那麼重要"},{"start":634.77,"end":649.844,"text":"因為他對於我們的國防預算有限的國防預算他其實是很重要的因為我們在具體的案例上面就可以看到那個問題的所在我們之前在國防認清特別條例裡面就很簡單的採購上面"},{"start":653.027,"end":667.734,"text":"社會上已經看到很多讓人民一聽就有感的例子比如說我們一瓶水可以買到一百二十塊錢我們一張椅子可以買到五萬元人民之所以會憤怒不是因為一瓶水或一張椅子這些錢八億多或者像這樣兩千多萬就會拖垮我們的財政國家的財政而是因為這一類案例很清楚的傳達一件事情"},{"start":680.299,"end":703.918,"text":"如果你沒有好好的監督連最基礎最日常最容易比價的這樣子的一個採購內容都會失真的時候我們人民要怎麼相信上千億元的軍事投資不會出現更大的失真這是我們要討論的一個部分這個也是大家為什麼而且剛剛還有一點"},{"start":705.919,"end":723.984,"text":"我們國防部在報告裡面還有對外也很清楚的說我們在未來的三年是付款的高峰期不管我們的次增飛彈或者我們的魚砂飛彈或者我們其他的M1A2或者我們其他的死神無人機或者我們其他的一些相關的採購支出未來三年是高峰期"},{"start":729.125,"end":744.143,"text":"所以可見三年以後我們高峰期過了其實我們的公務預算上面其實是有空間跟餘裕的所以我們是不是應該要一步到位全部都把它用在特別預算上面然後就"},{"start":745.799,"end":753.701,"text":"避免比較省慎的一個監督還有失去它的透明度我覺得這就是我們現在要提出來討論的因為時間的關係我們剛剛講的其實大家應該你今天既然要說明財政的狀況你就應該把它更清楚的說明第一你把它特別預算常態化了第二我們的公務預算不是未來全部都只有84億的上限而是你在"},{"start":773.766,"end":786.091,"text":"付款高峰期過後其實他會有其他的又重新開始那你相對的如果比較重要的其實你甚至都可以放在公務預算上面這也是我們的態度我們也非常支持我們的國家安全跟我們的國防那另外在這裡借一點點時間我想要請教國防部我請教部長這個ARTIS 600這個部分我們對美因為這一次對"},{"start":801.557,"end":804.46,"text":"對美的那個軍售項目裡面其中也有這個案子那ARTIS是我們提出需求或者是美國軍方的建議當時我們會買因為我們第一批已經來了嘛在專案裡面"},{"start":816.673,"end":820.475,"text":"原來我們編115億後來美方同意的價格其實只有55億其中高達60億的價差我想要請教的是ALTIS 600這是我們提出的需求或者是美方"},{"start":834.639,"end":858.569,"text":"提供的建議包委員這是我們提的需求這在前年的時候我們年底在討論列銷案的時候所以是我們提出的需求所以我們是直接指商所以我們要買這一家那時候我們有做了一個專報就是我們真正這個反甲無人機飛彈的需求是兩千多具那所以上一次我們已經採購了大概兩百九十幾套的那個ALTIS 600M型"},{"start":859.409,"end":872.004,"text":"那因為我們依據最近跟美方討論的結果他們RTS600M型它已經在做性能的升級所以在這一波裡面我們把前面那個需求的部分把它補足"},{"start":872.95,"end":875.112,"text":"我們比較特別感興趣的就是說為什麼不是感興趣啦我們比較懷疑關心的是為什麼我們會選擇這一款因為我們看到媒體報導上面Artist 600M在實彈測試當中五架衰掉三架雖然陸軍有回應說這個報導不屬實"},{"start":895.828,"end":902.17,"text":"可是我們卻沒有辦法有具體的實證說它是好的事實上它就是掉了三架那你要做其他等我把它講完因為時間比較有限那我們在本席你說獲得的武器規劃要做年度的重大演訓或實戰化的驗證可見它還沒有做好驗證那本席查證美安和舉的網頁也發現除了台灣以外世界各國都沒有大量採購Artis無人機"},{"start":925.998,"end":933.001,"text":"這個部分不管是美軍信義的他們包括海空軍其實他們測試的結果都不好所以其實他們也沒有採購那另外還有媒體也報導美方曾經送一批到烏克蘭實戰驗證可是發現他會墜毀而且沒有辦法集中目標而且會遭遇俄羅斯電戰攻擊的時候他表現狀況也不好所以2024年他就已經停止使用沒有再部署過那就"},{"start":955.291,"end":976.98,"text":"還包括美國的海空軍的驗證他會高空俯衝或螺旋式的墜落這個指揮控制軟體的表現也不如預期美國的海軍報告更嚴厲的指責系統不斷出現作戰安全違規承包商更有誤導行為顯示這款無人機在控制軟體上面還在發展測試修改的這個階段我們國軍為什麼持續購置沒有驗證"},{"start":983.943,"end":995.669,"text":"的這樣的裝備剛開始你們花了五十幾億去採購這樣子是我們提出需求今天有得到這樣的答案那為什麼我們會提出這樣的需求甚至在過去其實它的戰場的時機並不好的情況底下那現在又要很快的又要去採購這些"},{"start":1004.079,"end":1020.357,"text":"報委員 我就您剛才的提詢我做幾點回應第一點我再一次的報告並沒有如媒體報導所謂五架在我們的實際的涉及當中並沒有媒體報導所謂五架摔掉三架這個情勢那摔幾架 第二個"},{"start":1021.819,"end":1043.514,"text":"這整個的我要報告的是說他符合我們陸軍的需求那什麼樣的需求這我不單獨的為這個安德里這家公司去做背書但是我為什麼講他符合我們的需求因為無人機是一個高度迭代的一個彈藥或是一個武器那他可以依照我們的需要他"},{"start":1044.375,"end":1062.516,"text":"不斷的去針對我們防禦作戰的要求做韌體軟體的一個提升跟延改那第三個也就是說在未來我們採購的Altitude 700跟這個600的ISR這個當中它其實它是運用了一個高度迭代的模型不斷的針對抗干擾還有它的導控"},{"start":1065.018,"end":1075.147,"text":"還有它的這個項的飛鈔以及它的穿透能力去依照我們的需求去做提升跟延改所以這這幾兩項委員做說明常委長你講的是矛盾的我們剛剛講我們提出需求的時候我們已經花了55億去採購可是我們剛剛講的先例就是不管烏克蘭也好不管美國也好它自身其實都沒有做到採購另外"},{"start":1090.441,"end":1104.769,"text":"另外你小額的不要拿來講因為他拿來做他的驗證還沒有過你那個是小量我剛剛說大量使用包括美國自己都還沒有用而且他也不用而且美國的報告裡面產品"},{"start":1105.769,"end":1117.678,"text":"都是由美國的軍種對於合約商對他進行認證那個跟合約商沒有問題嘛你們剛剛說這是你們自己提出的需求啦所以我先是說為什麼會提出這個需求剛剛你也提到他必須要迭代的進步可是當我們都還沒有確切的掌握到他的實證驗證裡面他可以有提升的效果我們現在又急著買後續的我們前面已經買55億了那在"},{"start":1134.831,"end":1157.281,"text":"M跟ISR差在哪裡我就兩點報告第一個我們前面買的685架的那個台灣刀300跟291架的Altius 600雖然我們是這個291架都已經到貨了但是他仍然還在依照我們的需求去幫我們做軟體跟韌體的提升這是第一點"},{"start":1159.622,"end":1169.085,"text":"那為什麼你在買的時候不是就已經要符合我們的需求你才買你花了高達五十幾億甚至原來他疊帶都還沒有出來你第一代就這麼差然後疊帶也還沒有經過驗證而且我們"},{"start":1176.087,"end":1182.312,"text":"他不可能用未來的規格去做現在的驗證他也就是實際上在他遭遇到各項的干擾你現在的驗證就已經是大家都沒有通過的你怎麼會是未來我們現在要的不是未來我們現在要的是現在而且是可以即時發揮戰力他是通過美國LT600是通過美國海軍的測試的啊"},{"start":1199.304,"end":1201.246,"text":"請把相關的資訊提供給我們不要只看PTT就是公司的PTT然後去做這樣的採購如果有然後他非常好請提供相關資訊"},{"start":1216.963,"end":1239.822,"text":"我們希望國防部提供相關的驗證的或者已經測試他一定有他一定是有驗證的或者測試的那個相關資料如果有請提供那另外因為我們要就一點時間在尖針型的無人機的部分因為M是攻擊的嘛ISR是尖針我們為什麼又要買尖針"},{"start":1243.73,"end":1266.764,"text":"因為它基本上這個就有ISR有1導多的功能也就是說一個ISR它大概它可以導600它可以導這個600M也可以導700M那線型的600M它只是一個依照我們的設定去攻擊目標那ISR它基本上至少是達到1導3以上的一個性能"},{"start":1268.643,"end":1272.847,"text":"我們你測試過了嗎這個未將來我們在報我們到美國的專案這個這個專案會議的時候我不是將來就說他已經測試過了嗎我現在要說的是不是你已經測試過了嗎到預算獲得之後到美國去實際的見這個去做這樣的一個性能的"},{"start":1292.535,"end":1309.394,"text":"會是我們陸軍未來必要做的一個項目所以你是已經編了預算以後你才要去美國做這樣的測試而不是他經過測試以後驗證可以然後你才買這個軍售他不是商售我們的對象就是美政府也就是美國的專責軍長"},{"start":1312.498,"end":1316.439,"text":"我們可以買現在因為無人機在很多戰場上面都經過實戰的測證的驗證不管在烏克蘭也好不管在現在中東也好其實它有很多的來源它有很多經過實戰驗證然後我們偏偏挑一個還沒有實戰驗證測試通過的這個部分而且你一次買非常大量而且在很短期的時間我們現在後續我們再可能有一些時間請如果"},{"start":1339.406,"end":1343.189,"text":"因為你們會指定這樣的廠商然後指定買採購這樣子的一個裝備而且是我們對美國提出要求美國軍售沒有錯可是他是因為因應我們的要求有時候他會建議所以剛剛你說這是我們提出的需求為什麼我們提出這個需求我們希望有比較確切的然後比較好的因為那攸關我們的國家安全今天我們如果花很多的錢然後買到的可能是不好的"},{"start":1365.603,"end":1393.8,"text":"台灣就這麼大的面積耶它如果上空有這麼多的無人機然後它很容易掉下來它打到的可能不是敵人它打到的是我們自己然後它有很多的風險我們卻還是採購這樣因為它說垂直降落啊螺旋式的這些失敗的案例我們到底有沒有考慮這個部分也放在我們的特別預算裡面所以我們希望可以省省的評估每一筆預算我們支持你可以買"},{"start":1394.54,"end":1400.384,"text":"可是你要買至少不合我們作戰需求的這是我們的重點好不好謝謝謝謝馬委員發言"}]}},{"id":"168024","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168024","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d0265d86f2f18c67e36525f079a770e9117671a01da40a13b7080941cab810cc4e85fd41815b697d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"11:11:19 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最後到一千五百多億的樣子是喔 有到一千五百多億對 一千五百多億那就幾乎又增加了一倍了那從這個觀點來看這個國際貿易其實它的原則是講究平衡嘛對台灣東西出鈔那對於台灣賺"},{"start":46.755,"end":63.277,"text":"美金這個外匯非常有幫助可是站在美國的立場他一定會覺得說應該盡量平衡那所以從提高一年度就提高到1500億那假設今年度照你的報告"},{"start":65.359,"end":93.005,"text":"因為AI的關係 你看我今年度台灣的出口還是會暢旺所以很有可能今年度對美國的出招還會再更高是不是應該應該應該也是差不多啦不會就是說再更高啦不會再更高啦我覺得1500億就已經算是很高了那現在再來就是因為這樣子的現象產生的後果要如何承擔呢現在是因為"},{"start":95.84,"end":110.375,"text":"這個國際在地緣衝突嘛那美國以色列跟伊朗現在在衝突那另外烏克蘭跟俄羅斯侵略烏克蘭也還沒有結束所以現在很多資金是進入美元去避險"},{"start":112.193,"end":118.278,"text":"使得美元最近在國際間超強勢不然來講如果從國際貿易角度來看台灣對美國這麼多的粗糙台灣台幣對美金在國際貿易理論上應該是要貶值的"},{"start":126.311,"end":144.253,"text":"是不是啦 理論上應該是要貶值但是因為現在地緣衝突所以升值嘛對啊 那在這樣子的狀況之下將來台幣要如何避免要升值呢在地緣衝突結束了之後那台灣對美金那麼多的粗糙"},{"start":146.215,"end":171.612,"text":"我擔心台幣會快速升值欸我跟委員報告啦就是說市場都認為市場都認為就是說我們對美國的粗糙那麼多按照道理呢就是說我們的台幣要升值對啊他認為就是說我們台幣要升值不過我也跟委員報告那為什麼國際的貨幣最近在中東戰爭之後"},{"start":173.613,"end":187.809,"text":"每個貨幣都對美元變質就大家避險跑到美國去大家認為美元可以對嘛但是啊 難道就是說因為避險我用我們台灣的例子來看來跟委員報告就是說"},{"start":189.648,"end":206.915,"text":"如果說戰事一發生了以後美元在國際上它是搶的新台幣也貶值那新台幣為什麼會貶值新台幣貶值是因為外資在我們台灣的股市它抽出去了"},{"start":207.915,"end":225.825,"text":"他抽出去他跑出去那為什麼他抽出去抽出去他有吃虧嗎他沒有吃虧因為外資在我們台灣的股市呢他賺很多他賺很多所以呢這個就是一個概念我必須要跟委員報告就是說我們的"},{"start":227.767,"end":240.062,"text":"經常帳或是我們的貿易帳即使是對它粗糙很多的話按照道理我們是應該要升值的但是它在我們的股市賺很多錢"},{"start":241.641,"end":269.074,"text":"所以那就是貿易帳的平衡了那個是對嘛也就是說你的經常帳你的貿易帳我賺你的錢但是他在我們的股市賺我們的錢啊是那在這個他跟我們賺我們的錢的時候呢這個外界都一直沒有考量到這一點他們都一直認為就是說我們賺多的錢所以新台幣一定要升值但是呢他都沒有考慮到他在我們的股市賺很多錢站在"},{"start":271.515,"end":294.048,"text":"這個是從國際貿易的理論上面來看那他從我們的股市賺了很多錢現在是因為國際地緣衝突所以大賣東亞的各國的股市把資金抽回美國獲利了結嘛對但是獲利了結另外一個角度來講台灣的股票市場是一個健全的市場的話他將來還是會再大幅的回來沒有錯"},{"start":294.648,"end":319.426,"text":"他還是要倒個人回來 因為他要繼續賺更多那所以這個資金 美金因為股市交易或是其他的交易來來往往的這個資金是一時的現在走如果衝突穩定假設真的是四月五月結束他有可能六七八月的時候資金又過來台灣那時候台幣是不是就會大幅升值對啊 就有可能啊"},{"start":320.066,"end":321.948,"text":"所以就是說我跟委員報告基本上事實上台灣的一個外匯市場是由資金的移動來主導的而不是由出口的多寡來主導你講的這個我接受但是你如果長年的這樣子的累積"},{"start":339.206,"end":364.5,"text":"每一年用這個速度在累積對美的粗糙這個壓力還是一定都在所以這個就是說我們在溝通的過程當中我們也要告訴他我跟你的粗糙不是因為我壓低我的匯率不是因為我們不公平的貿易的手段而是你真正需要我的產品"},{"start":365.44,"end":367.603,"text":"另外一點我們台灣的努力譬如說現在要跟阿拉斯加購買天然氣將來有可能購買石油等等"},{"start":380.097,"end":401.929,"text":"那在對美國對大宗物資的採購另外一方面說有一些台灣的企業去美國投資等等這些的作為稍微做一點平衡政府的作為嘛是是是我也非常贊同那個委員的這種看法這個貿易這個商品帳還是要互惠啦"},{"start":402.589,"end":410.852,"text":"也就是說你多買我的東西那我也要多買你的東西要付費貿易就是這樣子我這樣贊同這幾年美國對我們是不是這個"},{"start":416.755,"end":438.491,"text":"外匯管制的作為這些事情把我們列為觀察國家因為我們一直有在跟他做很好的溝通所以他不會把我們列入操縱國但是還是長期把我們列為觀察國所以要拜託總裁還是要繼續努力跟美國溝通因為如果被列入操縱國那就不得了了"},{"start":440.653,"end":461.288,"text":"我想我也趁這個機會跟委員報告就是說事實上我們長久以來我們跟美國財政部的一個溝通都是非常順暢的他也理解我們的說法現在在全球戰略美國把台灣列為他的準盟有關係整個東亞建構整個"},{"start":464.05,"end":485.735,"text":"戰隊的關係 台灣是跟他站在同一隊所以他對我們當然也會有比較客氣一點啦好 那最後在剩下兩分鐘我問一個問題啊剛剛有委員提到 我覺得那個也有點道理啦有一個名詞叫地方創生 你知道嗎這個從日本過來的他就因為在地方本來他們人口很多後來一直外流 因為全球都都市化嘛"},{"start":486.235,"end":503.573,"text":"所以有一些鄉村或是比較淡白區的人口都外流到這個大都會那使得他地方人口一直減少地方的經濟各樣的特色都一直衰減所以希望人口回流然後希望地方的產業能夠發達把地方再重新"},{"start":504.474,"end":525.961,"text":"繁榮恢復起來一部分這個叫地方創生日本是這樣的概念剛剛其實也有委員提到你選擇信息用管制如果是全國一致信的時候那大都會跟剛剛講到那個蛋白區管制是一樣的那這個對於地方創生這個觀念來講是不利的因為"},{"start":526.701,"end":541.589,"text":"都會化這是這一百多年來全球的趨勢那如何讓原來的地方的特色能夠維持原來人口跟這個經濟區域的經濟能夠繁榮其實它有的時候反而需要鼓勵啦"},{"start":542.489,"end":560.46,"text":"所以剛剛也有人提到說那是不是要來考慮差別的對待在已經很都會很淡白很淡黃區的房價很高漲地區的管制跟如果今天一個年輕人我願意返鄉勿農我願意回到我的鄉下我願意在這個地方買房子"},{"start":561.34,"end":587.17,"text":"你如果貸款的成數全部都是一樣的那對於地方創生是最不利的事情我覺得委員講的沒有錯不過我也稍微借幾秒鐘跟委員報告當時我們的管制就只有那幾區在大都會那為什麼會變成全國因為那個時候炒房已經是從都會一直炒到"},{"start":587.99,"end":594.855,"text":"全國都會在發燒的時候呢他傳染到其他的非都會區整個都在發燒的時候呢當然我們就會把他就整個來控管那委員現在講的沒有錯如果到達某一個程度的時候呢我們必須要把他reverse回來對那種為的是要跟你"},{"start":612.228,"end":639.637,"text":"為什麼我會提這個問題呢因為本席的故鄉是台東台東那個地方你說要多少房地產做當初的渲染可能有啦現在的這個機會已經不大了那如果有年輕人願意返鄉那願意希望能夠在台東買一個房子來住我覺得那個管制不應該跟這個大多數地方是一樣的我覺得我非常贊同那是不是許你考慮看看將來如何調整這個政策好 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可不可以說明一下"},{"start":75.766,"end":91.218,"text":"現在還是在研究當中不過這個概念我們以前都有只是說到目前為止還沒有一個具體化而且全球的中央銀行很少數的國家除了英國 英國我知道"},{"start":91.798,"end":95.102,"text":"英國的通膨的scenario的分析就有一點類似我們現在所講的IMF的風險值的概念"},{"start":108.4,"end":125.958,"text":"不過到目前為止呢我們有以前基本上我們以前就有這個概念只是說我們再深入再探討它只是說到目前為止我們還沒有就是說有做這樣的就像英國的這樣的一個上行的一個range的一個預測到目前為止我們還沒有"},{"start":128.34,"end":148.966,"text":"還沒有做完一個完整的報告還沒有不過我也跟委員報告事實上雖然就是說這個也是一個學術探討的一個主題不過我以前我對英國的這種它的一個預測方法我也不會覺得就是說是非常的先進"},{"start":150.475,"end":163.121,"text":"我也不會認為它是很先進的台灣作為一個小型開放的經濟體是那挑戰跟應對措施需要考核綜合考量多方面的因素是尤其是中東戰爭還有能源飆漲的問題"},{"start":165.842,"end":184.609,"text":"那我們是一個高度依賴進口能源的一個開放型的經濟體對 沒有錯那面臨的一個嚴峻的挑戰尤其是能源跟海運的成本對那對台灣的經濟成長跟民生造成了絕對的壓力對所以央行在這一塊你要面對這一些挑戰對那"},{"start":187.39,"end":213.621,"text":"是否會選擇升息或者是這個應對持續的用升息來應對持續的一個物價壓力我跟委員報告就是說對於就是說台灣目前就是說中東所產生的這個原物料的價格的上漲事實上一方面政府的穩定措施是有效的我覺得另外一方面中英郎必須要做的第一個"},{"start":214.221,"end":231.741,"text":"我們要阻止防止這個輸入性的通膨的問題的疑慮這是第一個就是說那所謂的要防止這個輸入性通膨的一個壓力的話呢第一個我們的匯率一定要穩定這個是中央銀行這是我們的職責"},{"start":233.783,"end":256.217,"text":"因為油價高你又匯率如果說大無貶值的話就雪上加霜這是第一個點那第二點呢你剛剛所講的利率的問題利率呢是屬於需求面的一個控管的一個工具在供給面的一個問題上呢用需求面去解決他的比較比較不方便比較不好但是呢"},{"start":256.897,"end":274.726,"text":"他在第二輪也就是說在通膨的一個預期在上升的時候呢也就是說通膨的預期在形成的時候呢總理必須要注意除了我們的匯率的政策以外呢我們的利率政策也必須要stand by我們就是要必須要準備在那邊這個就是說為什麼"},{"start":277.748,"end":297.221,"text":"全球的中央銀行對這一次的一個中東的戰爭他們的態度從以前的一個寬鬆的態度變成現在是要緊縮的態度台灣的中央銀行也是一樣的我們是要stand by在適當的時機我們的貨幣政策我們的利率政策也必須要做政策我們長期的觀察銀行在貨幣操作上"},{"start":305.786,"end":331.037,"text":"是採這個非對稱性的嘛就是俗稱的說這個匯率政策這個生不足貶阻擋的阻生不足貶所以說當新台幣有升值壓力的時候那我們央行會積極的干預為了要保護我們這些出口業嘛出口產業但是當面對貶值所引發的我們的進口通膨干預力道就相對保守"},{"start":331.557,"end":361.077,"text":"所以你從A30一直到現在A30不夠委員你講這個的時候我才要再借這個機會跟委員報告事實上市面上這種政說法是完全完全他沒有那個什麼實務上的一個實務上的一個就是說實務上他不知道實務上中央銀行是怎麼運作的"},{"start":361.617,"end":377.546,"text":"所以說中央銀行主生不足貶這個確實在實務上是說不通的在理論上是好像在市場上好像很容易接受就是說主生不足貶現在美台利差持續擴大所以台幣貶值壓力很大"},{"start":382.809,"end":400.164,"text":"那這種偏弱所謂說我們現在央行持續這種偏弱貨幣的一個隱性政策那你一手中央銀行沒有中央銀行沒有我們一手就是說要控制通膨嘛但另外你就放任匯率貶值沒有放任啊所以要記起的作為啊記起的作為"},{"start":406.385,"end":425.175,"text":"也是說建議啦建議總裁會說是不是我們要用力說來放棄也不是放棄整個考量是不是說出口利率的考量跟讓我們匯率適度的升值來抵消我們國際領域漲價的這樣子的壓力我跟委員報告啦"},{"start":425.795,"end":436.885,"text":"就是說在三月以後啊在三月以後啊就是說美元獨強那美元獨強的意思是什麼所有的貨幣都對美元都貶值"},{"start":438.543,"end":464.523,"text":"都對美元貶值那好那如果說所有貨幣都對美元貶值的時候呢中央銀行就是說新台幣呢它在這個貶值的過程當中只要我們中央銀行的新台幣貶值的幅度低於好我們就是說鄰近的國家像韓國跟日本如果說我們它貶值的幅度比我們大的話那表示什麼表示新台幣也是升值啊"},{"start":467.279,"end":486.358,"text":"因為相對的每年獨搶的情況之下因為時間有限 我再請教19日舉行第一季禮監事會將全國自然能的第二戶購入貸款 層數由五成調升到六成"},{"start":487.259,"end":515.627,"text":"那這樣子一個這個維福的放寬信用管制是不是因為央行已經預見了這個房市已經緩和的這個這樣子的情況嗎是這樣子嗎你可以監督回答我想有兩個第一個就是說我們在我們的選擇信用管制到目前我們也有得到一些的成效但是這個成效是不是符合我們我們是不是我們完全滿足"},{"start":516.607,"end":537.019,"text":"不見得啦 這是第一個 就是說我有一定的成效第二個呢 我們最主要的就是說對於第二副那些 它是自住的它是自住的 那你要滿足它的一個需求對於那個自住的話 我想我們跟它限制的太嚴格的話也不必要"},{"start":538.92,"end":562.615,"text":"你在媒體上有回應說這次的放寬就是為了要回應父母幫兒女買房的需求那是強調說是針對自住嘛但是現在房價依然是高掛在那邊那新成一的價格持續在上漲而你選在這個年八季這個凍息的同時來放寬這個信用管制"},{"start":565.117,"end":592.396,"text":"我想這個訊號會不會給我們這些建商或者是投機客來把它解釋成說成是我們央行是變成說支持房價這樣子的一個作為一個政策我們要如何保證這一層的鬆綁不會變成推升房價的一個兇手"},{"start":593.497,"end":597.261,"text":"所以我們也一直在強調我們這一次的鬆綁是一個微調所以我們非常的謹慎"},{"start":608.614,"end":627.545,"text":"我們也不希望就是說廠商那個什麼我們的市場打點謝謝總裁我們就務必說要盯緊市場不要讓政策變成投機客的工具讓我們最終希望讓房價能夠回到這個回歸合理的一個市場基礎沒有錯謝謝總裁謝謝原委員下一位諮詢委員請羅明財委員諮詢"}]}},{"id":"168026","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168026","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d0265d86f2f18c67708ae16714c073f75334e86b5f84e1acb7080941cab810cc05516ffde792dc4e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林思銘","委員發言時間":"11:01:57 - 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事實上我一直認為以目前來講的話我們的經濟應該來講都是還穩健的"},{"start":78.036,"end":102.666,"text":"目前還是很穩健的你看看我們1月2月當然1月2月那是戰事以前的戰事以後我們就是必須要觀察它就是說觀察我們的3月我們的4月5月6月那我們3月我們做這樣的預測的時候是在3月的時候也就是說它戰爭剛好就只有一半的時候"},{"start":103.526,"end":130.215,"text":"所以在很短的時間呢我們的scenario呢我們是說那個那個油價呢大概在全年呢從58.3上漲你剛提到你大概你是從3月你這個預測3月中3月看的嘛預測推出出來的嘛但是面對現在的情勢我有看今天的這個不管是媒體啊"},{"start":130.895,"end":145.769,"text":"都大幅報導 戰事會繼續升溫喔會帶動油價的上漲喔那我們看股匯市啊 今天的股市啊今天也在下跌 今天下跌了700多點喔所以你原來預測未來的經濟的成長動能會持續強勁向上"},{"start":154.017,"end":171.731,"text":"你聽我講完啦民間的消費能力你熱錢也會增加但是目前中東戰事進入第五週情勢繼續升溫大幅的推升全球的這個這個油市航運業"},{"start":172.992,"end":189.491,"text":"及供應鏈陷入不確定性尤其是我們的加工產業鍛煉加劇這個氦氣肥料化學品的起漲低價石油已成過去世全球面臨停滯性的通膨風暴"},{"start":190.952,"end":209.102,"text":"經濟學者與金融機構高度擔憂啊油市供應遭遇的兩大壓力啊會遭遇兩大壓力啊就是那個和睦之海峽被封鎖所以經濟的加速成長是無望的喔目前的局勢的演變是這樣喔所以央行"},{"start":210.743,"end":231.173,"text":"您怎麼能夠這個到目前為止還該總裁我聽你講好像你還是講很樂觀我們也不是說很樂觀我們是審慎樂觀但是呢 我想我們也不會就是說我們的這個情境的分析就一直停留在這個 85塊"},{"start":233.454,"end":253.465,"text":"那如果說就像委員現在戰爭好像也不是說很短時間就會結束啦而且優價可能會上升所以這個都是在我們關注的主題當中所以你應該提到嘛一定要審慎的去因應是是是沒有錯沒有錯這戰爭看起來就是持續在升溫短期沒有那麼快結束嘛對對對"},{"start":261.169,"end":285.574,"text":"我們看到伊朗對於中東能源基礎設施的攻擊使得波斯灣石油天然氣以及其他重要的原物料出口受阻培莫斯海峽是全球能源運輸的關鍵通道所以它現在被封閉起來不僅推高能源價格也提高企業生產的成本抑制消費需求尤其是非必要支出"},{"start":286.754,"end":313.758,"text":"進而拖累了經濟的成長甚至可能引發衰退同時同盟的壓力升溫使得各國央行被迫放棄降息計畫甚至轉向升息加劇經濟壓力蘇總裁請教你央行未來是否也會適度的跟各國的央行一樣因應中東的戰事去採取升息的措施"},{"start":316.621,"end":330.128,"text":"我在我們的記者會裡就是說李監事會完之後的記者會裡面我也有同樣的就是說中央銀行目前的態度是比較朝向緊縮的一個態度緊縮對緊縮的態度還是繼續動載"},{"start":333.85,"end":336.554,"text":"那繼續緊縮所以要傾向但是採取緊縮的一個政策這個現在還不是時候是"},{"start":349.288,"end":373.258,"text":"目前這個情勢那麼緊張通膨的壓力一直來所以也就是說我們focus的是1.8%1.8%應該還是在我們的總整範圍之內總裁我接下來跟你討論通膨風險值的問題物價穩定向來是我們各國央行尤其我們中央雲南也是最重要的核心目標"},{"start":374.959,"end":388.593,"text":"在中東歧視的升溫下全球經濟不確定性持續升高預測短期的通膨風險掌握驅動物價變動的關鍵因素已成為我們貨幣政策的重要課題"},{"start":390.074,"end":416.747,"text":"因此本席看到央行最新的研究指出未來可建構通膨風險值作為輔助工具從整體的分布角度分析未來通膨可能的區間與發生的機率有助提升貨幣政策判斷的精準度與簡單性所以請問這個總裁通膨呈現高度不確定甚至具有跳躍式的上升風險"},{"start":418.268,"end":422.581,"text":"這個時候還能用平均數來決策嗎會不會有落後現實的情況"},{"start":424.346,"end":451.687,"text":"我跟委員報告事實上您說的也沒有錯因為現在大部分現在大部分都是用平均數就是都是用一個不是說基本就像說我們58.3把它提升到85那如果說把這個概念放進去的時候呢這個就是一個機率的分配的一個問題"},{"start":452.988,"end":478.681,"text":"那也就是說好那最差的一個scenario可能是100那最佳的一個optimistic的scenario是什麼是70那這樣的話它就有一個range它就有一個range就是說在這一段期間可能它的通膨可能就會在這個range裡面那它所發生的機率大概是多少"},{"start":479.721,"end":493.153,"text":"他是把機率這個是比較科學啦比較統計統計的方法那這個是比較那這個呢我們都是正在你現在研究還在研究中嘛那是否有已經有具體的數據啊"},{"start":494.494,"end":523.082,"text":"因為我們說我們在最壞的環境下通膨可能是多少機率的分佈是怎樣是是是有沒有這樣的數據我們只能說我們只能說這個這個也有100的那個的scenario但是呢它的probability是到底多少因為probability啊這個可能我一部分那個總裁我是要問你啦你現在已經在走水研究了對但是你現在的研究是已經"},{"start":524.522,"end":542.533,"text":"已經完備沒有 我們準備把它納入我們未來的決策的階段都還沒有啦 只是一個在內的行程而已啦我想過去幾年我們全球發生最大的錯誤就是低估極端通膨的發生機率啦疫情後的通膨爆衝 到現在戰爭與能源的衝擊"},{"start":545.735,"end":566.267,"text":"都是典型的尾端風險成真所以目前央行的政策模型中是否有納入比如說油價暴漲的情境比如說煤桶現在可能會漲破超過150美元區域戰爭擴大全球供應鏈可能會再度中斷"},{"start":567.748,"end":590.945,"text":"所以我們的政策模型中有沒有納入這樣的一些情境的分析啊我想喔 委員我們也會有這樣的一個在概念上我們的那個我們Focus裡面也有這樣的一個概念啦但是呢我們不便在這邊講說如果說到200塊的時候250塊的時候呢它會怎麼樣怎麼樣怎麼樣"},{"start":596.168,"end":613.1,"text":"我覺得這個不適合在這種沒有就是說你用這種沒有發生你是不用講出來的但是你這個模型中會納入這種情境分析吧我們這個情境應該會納入吧但是我們不會就是說這樣就把它公開出來的最後一題我再請教你"},{"start":615.982,"end":638.438,"text":"我關美國政府近期又再啟動新一輪的301條款的調查我國也被列入為調查國家之一行政院表示台美已簽署台美對登貿易協定就是ART不會受這樣調查的影響總裁我想請問你這次被列入調查名單對於未來我們台幣匯率的走向可能會有怎樣的影響"},{"start":639.478,"end":653.592,"text":"匯率操縱也是美國的調查終點這次我國再次被列入是否表示對美國而言仍然認為我們可能有事在操縱匯率不會啦我跟委員報告絕對不會所以也不會影響我們台美對待貿易的協定也不會影響"},{"start":661.74,"end":689.918,"text":"就是他即便我們被進入這個沒有就匯率的這個部分呢這個匯率的部分是我們跟財政部而且匯率的這個部分是不是商務部的所管轄的範圍而是財政部管轄的範圍我們是跟財政部一個溝通我也跟委員報告我們歷年以來跟美國財政部的溝通都非常的順利OK 好"},{"start":691.079,"end":694.044,"text":"好謝謝林委員下一位資訊委員請嚴寬恆委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"168030","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168030","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d0265d86f2f18c67671f3d37e175c7bf117671a01da40a13b7080941cab810ccf3397ef17cf3074c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","委員發言時間":"11:36:39 - 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我一樣跟孟愷委員一樣要關心某一位地院的書記官所謂全數陣亡意思就是新到任的書記官待不滿一年的事情我想你們已經非常了解了可是可以看一下很多的書記官他們講說說老實話 我希望事情鬧得越大越好法院與檢察署的書記官工作越來越繁雜繁重"},{"start":46.259,"end":65.731,"text":"這種管考卻沒有減少同事呢每天加班做到八點還做不完為了接小孩只好趕五點下班再去加五六個小時的班幾乎沒有什麼時間陪孩子司法院的長官如果再不重視這個問題呢那就司法體系乾脆就是崩潰雖然他們很期待這一天"},{"start":66.431,"end":83.452,"text":"我講這個事情是剛才講說人不夠那但是呢你也提到了就是要自立自強嘛那這個無論如何能夠處理的內部處理的要處理那像這樣子的情況就是我們的書記官他的工作繁重到"},{"start":85.214,"end":95.641,"text":"送完小孩還要回來週末再加五六個小時的班以及呢各種管考沒有減少這是不是在我們管理上面也可以做一些改變讓留才這件事情變得有可能好跟委員報告"},{"start":101.125,"end":125.318,"text":"就是因為如果人員能夠到期一切節節就是因為人員沒辦法到期其實我們各法院都很努力把書記官的工作後續比較那個束縛型的工作能夠有這個委外人力來協助讓書記官的工作就完全在前階段的法庭筆錄跟前階段的卷證處理"},{"start":126.498,"end":152.971,"text":"這個是我們希望讓書記官工作能夠切一塊出去讓他減少另外我們努力的是我們當然書記官我們要讓他不要無心加班所以我們也在提高他的加班費然後另外我們也是運用我們可以用的這個二等書記官三等升二等二等升一等的原額的配套讓書記官能夠看到明天"},{"start":154.011,"end":169.18,"text":"那您剛講的是一回事可是我們在實際上面遇到另外一個狀況是您剛一直強調說希望人能夠增加但是在原本的員額上面那大家都一直在走那就是另外的管理問題了那就是另外的問題我們來看一下這個數據從112年到114年書記官員額以及到離職的人數調查表無論台北或新北的地院"},{"start":181.266,"end":186.43,"text":"離職的人數都多於倒職的人數我們看112年這個數據我們一個一個來看112年的時候呢這個倒職21人這個台北地院離職20人然後呢新北地院112年倒職24人離職28人也就是說你今天所謂的人數不只是說你想說人總給你的員額不夠多就算給你的員額多了離職的人還是比倒職的人多啊"},{"start":208.763,"end":215.445,"text":"113年一模一樣台北地院倒值28離職28新北地院倒值25離職28114年這個更誇張喔倒值的台北地院倒值50人離職52人114年倒值59離職56所以連續的三年112 113 114你原額在那個地方但是你倒值的人數跟離職的人數"},{"start":237.532,"end":255.578,"text":"相减之后要么等于0甚至是负数的情况那想要请问一下你们有没有了解为什么从112到114会有这样的情况发生以及检讨要怎么做能够让到值跟离值的人数不要进来的人跟出去的人一样甚至超过呢"},{"start":256.218,"end":271.388,"text":"好 跟委員報告 當然我必須要說 第一個是薪資薪資真的是你跟外部的工作量來比較 留不住他第二個 為什麼倒置他馬上離開 因為我一進來就是兩份工作 我看了我就走"},{"start":272.088,"end":287.791,"text":"那我們現在要努力的就是說 讓他的兩份工作 中間的有一份工作能夠讓其他的委外人員來處理 這是我們最努力的方向讓他進來覺得說 我就是只有一份工作 我才會留職"},{"start":288.932,"end":303.883,"text":"這個是我們最努力的方向另外一個要讓他看到明天我們希望加薪 加班費 加職等這個我們能夠用的全力都是在用這個方面115年有信心做到"},{"start":305.458,"end":325.516,"text":"反轉嗎沒有信心那我們再看一下您剛剛講的這個加班的事情加班絕對不是只要提高加班費大家就願意加班沒有人是願意的應該是我原本的工作到哪裡我就做到哪裡加班那是叫做例外而例外本來就該給加班費"},{"start":326.997,"end":344.284,"text":"所以就算你把加班費調高如果你的工作沒有讓他在一個合理的範圍裡面就算有加班費人家也不一定願意做這個工作來看一下新北地院的工作史書我把台北跟新北的都拉出來給你看你可以特别看我時間有限我們看新北地院的就好"},{"start":344.764,"end":366.028,"text":"新北地院的加班時數從112年的39小時到114年變成了44小時在114年的12月平均喔來到53小時所以我的意思是說你們現在一直告訴我說你們要調整你們要讓大家的工作的loading變小可是也從數據上看來並不是這樣子啊從數據上來看是增加的耶你看"},{"start":370.589,"end":373.872,"text":"從台北地院112年一路到114年從本來30等等的一直平均開始到42114年幾乎台北地院都40幾欸 114年12月新北地院到53個小時欸這個簡直就是過勞的情況嘛所以我的意思是說你們如果長時間有關心這些書記官他們的加班時數狀況你們有盡可能去掌握的話那不是說提高加班費"},{"start":398.951,"end":426.559,"text":"是你要盡可能去降低大家的加班時數的問題請問最後這一點要怎麼樣的去改善就跟委員剛剛報告其實我們從114年就開始要把書記官一部分工作移給委外人員那這一段其實從114年什麼時候開始要做這件事的我們114年最早在我高本院院長任內我們二月就開始做二月開始那顯然成效不高啊"},{"start":427.455,"end":447.864,"text":"沒有啊 我們高本月會長 我現在要推行到各地院你們要去落實這一件 另外 老實說啦案件量太大 即使切一半出去 老實說為什麼加班這麼多同樣的法官加班也這麼多 除非我們要把法官受案量減少"},{"start":448.704,"end":465.514,"text":"如果法官收案量不減少書記官永遠是這樣是沒有錯啦但是你弄到最後都沒有書記官了那也是那也是一樣啊那你都沒有書記官了那你一樣你這個庭怎麼開呢所以無論如何我知道面對這樣一個挑戰你們是辛苦的"},{"start":466.014,"end":482.98,"text":"但是你問題還是得解決的你問題一天沒有解決你讓大家到職離職每年到職離職的人數是一樣的然後那你說希望人總在開多少圈你們那有用嗎你開了這麼多圈要到職的人要又離職的人然後到職減離職等於零那跟沒有是一樣的嘛"},{"start":483.72,"end":495.053,"text":"所以這以上幾個重點要請你們一定要去理清今天非常多的委員都在關心這件事情那希望這個我們希望可以再多去想想還有沒有其他的辦法能夠再做調整謝謝"}]}},{"id":"17311","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17311","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc84a0a9d3ab318e796149170e17472c733e07a0549bf20b511a80eafa5f58a6c85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2026-03-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、內政部警政署就「法院安全秩序維護與法警職權行使」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2026-03-30","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2026-03-30T08:33:43+08:00","end_time":"2026-03-30T11:46:00+08:00","duration":11537,"影片長度":"03:12:17","委員發言時間":"08:33:43 - 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法警職權行使與全域的維安法警受檢察官的指揮維護鎮下庭的秩序在法警的器械使用部分是依照台高檢署訂定的疫情注意事項由法警平時佩戴警棍遇有執行職務遭受到威脅等事由時的使用警棍若因解送中二人犯或執行特殊任務得簽准佩戴槍械與防衛他人生命身體遭受危害"},{"start":2269.554,"end":2288.904,"text":"非使用槍械不足以保護之必要時的依法的使用之那有關現行犯逮捕的部分若偵查區域發生暴力行為在符合刑事訴訟法現行犯的規範下法警得依法進行逮捕場域危安部分各地檢署也落實門禁的管制從源頭阻絕危險物品的進入第四在研議"},{"start":2289.764,"end":2318.467,"text":"与侧镜作为部分本部已于115年3月26日发函要求各检察机关确实检视机关的空间配置上下点的动线规划及现场安全维护措施并提出以下进行作为第一提升预警能力针对高风险的案件进行标注主动增派法警的随停戒护并留意开庭前后的场域安全第二确实落实安全保障开庭时若有相关威胁事项法警受检察官指挥会立即介入处理"},{"start":2319.534,"end":2346.228,"text":"提醒結束必要時啟動安全的陪同機制第三有關證據保全依法嚴辦若發生暴力衝突一定迅速截取影像保全證據有檢察官從嚴從速偵辦捍衛法治的尊嚴司法場域不容暴力侵犯每一位所有參與者的人身安全都應獲得充分保障本部隊以藐視公權力公然在司法機關行使暴力者絕對採取零容忍態度將依法追究刑事責任以上報告進行主席及各位委員指教謝謝"},{"start":2349.431,"end":2373.997,"text":"好 謝謝張次長的報告那機關代表都報告完畢了那相關書面內容請各位參閱並且列入公報記錄那現在我們就開始進行詢答那本會委員詢答的時間為8分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘那非本會委員詢答時間為5分鐘並不再延長那上午10點半截止發言登記但是我們就先請登記第一位的陳昭志委員"},{"start":2380.384,"end":2382.384,"text":"謝謝主席 有請秘書長好 請秘書長好 高秘書長早你剛剛的報告我有仔細聽不過我有些議題還是想跟您做一些確認秘書長依照法院組織法第91條法庭上的秩序是由審判長來負責維持那麼我想再請問法警在現場的作用是什麼"},{"start":2410.231,"end":2420.637,"text":"他要不要接受審判長還有法官的指揮呢請你簡單回答 謝謝好 謝謝委員法警在法庭上絕對是要接受審判長的指揮"},{"start":2422.594,"end":2445.442,"text":"那當然剛剛我們現在剛剛你也提到什麼法警因為有不明確他的職責還是規範不明確那法官有時候過於保守等一下我們就是下面會衍生這些問題因為大多數人都認為這個司法是正義最後一道防線所以依照這個概念來說法庭無論是這個刑而上的秩序或是這個刑而下的一些"},{"start":2446.122,"end":2449.866,"text":"建築啦 牆體等等基本上我們認為這個地方應該是要最安全最有法律尊嚴的地方那建台中這個地怨發生了尤其是最近這一次這個等於是這個被告女性被告毆打這個全國律師公會理事長加上民眾這個事件那大部分人會先疑惑會先想說那為什麼法警在現場"},{"start":2469.102,"end":2486.547,"text":"但是卻沒有進行逮捕就是我先提出幾個問題就是說這個是大部分人會這樣想法警在嘛沒有進行逮捕那我要先請問的是由誰來啟動這個指揮法警在現場要進行逮捕但是在法院包括庭內或庭外麻煩秘書長說清楚 謝謝"},{"start":2489.916,"end":2508.959,"text":"簡單的回答 庭內鋼工委員報告絕對是庭總審判長的指揮那庭外的部分也就是其實罰警他負有維持秩序可是這一件裡面當然其實現場這位女士她等同於現刑犯"},{"start":2509.54,"end":2527.086,"text":"老實說我必須承認我們法警任何人都可以逮捕現行犯只是他真的遲疑了那另外一個如果除了現行犯以外的強制力的謝謝秘書長因為有關現行犯部分我稍後再跟你再繼續討論因為大家對現行犯可能在定義上有遲疑"},{"start":2531.607,"end":2551.777,"text":"那難道會因為當時如果沒有法官或是說院內的長官來指揮所以他就不能制止就不能進行逮捕嗎因為我想這部分請您說清楚因為如果說是法定的不明確也不能推給法警那這個部分還是請秘書長再回答如果沒有人去啟動這個指揮法警不能主動來做嗎其實如果"},{"start":2554.958,"end":2570.063,"text":"依照我們現行的做法法警是可以自己就可以啟動他當時是真的是過於遲疑那這個過於遲疑是因為你的規範不明確呢還是因為剛剛你也報告到這一點沒有強拘等等沒有沒有 最重要是說"},{"start":2570.703,"end":2590.489,"text":"因為法警會受到外界一致質疑在法庭以外我講法庭以外法庭以外的部分他必須要因我們規定是自己要啟動可是因為外界對於法組法的質疑真的讓我們法警們所以這個就是我們在討論的地方他除了現行犯以外他為什麼會質疑就是在這個地方"},{"start":2592.33,"end":2611.04,"text":"就是因為法源的關係然後外界質疑的關係造成法警對自己的質疑這個是最大的因素我瞭解你現在的說法那請你稍後我是不是請這個張司長這個檢察司長來說明如果說同樣的事情發生在地檢署你們會怎麼處理"},{"start":2612.421,"end":2613.902,"text":"檢察官指揮檢察官指揮"},{"start":2643.662,"end":2662.401,"text":"現在就是有關現行犯案就請你稍微我再來請教秘書長秘書長請你看一下這個台中地院事後及時的澄清新聞稿台中地院說什麼呢因傷害罪屬告訴哪論罪第一個理由且供給日無理事長已經立即報警第二個理由第三事發當下法警無法判斷他是否受傷"},{"start":2663.402,"end":2683.328,"text":"第四所以還是以維持法院秩序為先請問秘書長你能夠接受這個說法或辯解嗎真的很抱歉我自己也不太能夠接受所以對於這件事情我們也跟台中地院那個王院長我有很跟他的仔細的講清楚可能他"},{"start":2684.028,"end":2695.655,"text":"可是我必須跟委員報告他這個新聞卡這種寫法是他問了法警說你為什麼沒有當場這個制止他說法警認為這樣他寫的是法警認為這樣"},{"start":2700.174,"end":2715.35,"text":"衛一線行為 這是放在你們的官網上喔那個秘書長 這個是很嚴重因為如果是這樣的方法 又灌在官網上的這個澄清稿那以後大家就可以告訴你來論罪 大家先打一場啊只要沒有鬧出人命啊 沒有人提告那是不是就是說"},{"start":2716.031,"end":2741.835,"text":"也沒有人指揮這個法警那法院大家就在一旁觀看就變成這樣啊所以這一次這是蠻嚴重的所以這個希望真的我們是非常的抱歉說當初我對王院長他這個新聞稿他這個協訪我希望他不是只有在台中地院啦我們希望這個檢討還是要全部的啦那我再請教秘書長請你明確的說在法律上他是現行犯嗎在法律上"},{"start":2743.678,"end":2745.019,"text":"那我先請秘書長看這個回歸法理"},{"start":2760.137,"end":2787.264,"text":"請看司法院32院第2505號解釋這邊解釋文寫得非常清楚告訴乃論罪的現行犯適用刑訴第88條是現行犯逮捕規定換言之告訴乃論罪的現行犯一樣是現行犯適用現行犯逮捕的規定這就不關是對到律師有沒有受傷問題而是法警本來就有逮捕的權利但是司法院跟台中紀念好像忘記了這號解釋 是嗎"},{"start":2789.424,"end":2812.374,"text":"報告委員還是平常都沒有在用不需要用沒有沒有沒有絕對要用當初真的我要跟委員報告因為王院長說他的寫法是法警的想法所以我們接受了他這個想法法警的想法正如官網上的一個澄清稿如果是這樣引起大家的誤會我很抱歉真的是任何現行犯是不問何人都可以代表真的是這樣"},{"start":2814.855,"end":2833.301,"text":"請教張司長法務部是司法行政最高主管機關告訴乃論罪的現行犯法院的長官或法官到底能不能指揮法警來進行及時逮捕只要是現行犯的話不論任何人都可以逮捕這個就非常清楚現行犯就是"},{"start":2835.943,"end":2853.451,"text":"這市長你現在說可以但是沒錯但是現在連你們家的高檢署2025年10月發布的法律宣導也是直接打臉遞願嘛你看過這個文宣嗎高檢署說得很明白告訴哪論罪的陷阱犯可以逮捕因為告訴哪論只是判決中的訴訟要件這個市長"},{"start":2855.592,"end":2871.785,"text":"那到底要不要逮捕一個現行犯我們回歸到當初立法的理由一個是保全證據一個就是防止行為人逃亡那再來就是維護公共秩序那當然其中這個維護公共秩序應該是適用本案的一個理由逮捕是為了維護公共秩序並保護人身的安全"},{"start":2872.385,"end":2886.374,"text":"結果高檢署的法學嘗試好像還勝過勝過地院的應變能力所以市長如果地檢署發生同樣事情那地檢署署長或是檢察官如果他沒有去指揮法警抓人那您會不會懲處"},{"start":2888.899,"end":2905.108,"text":"我想那個相關的現場狀況都要依照現場的這個市政來做一些判斷那有關這個臺中地院的這個回應那我們是尊重臺中地院的回應那至於本部的話呢就是都有強化這個法警的相關教育訓練"},{"start":2907.47,"end":2933.011,"text":"如果沒有人去指揮的時候法警能不能做一些採取一些行動這個部分請你們要釐清這個責任當然我強調法國要明確也不能讓基層的法警受到委屈那我再請問秘書長為什麼台中紀念長官法官可以袖手旁觀那法警不敢抓人那還用這個荒謬的理由你剛剛有盡量解釋說他是用這個法警的說法但是這樣也不對啊對不對你現在在官網就是代表司法院的立場"},{"start":2934.352,"end":2963.05,"text":"最令人生氣不好意思我再講一下這不是突發剛剛你在報告中有提到這是蓄意攻擊為什麼我這樣講呢因為這個女生是這個女性她是有前科的她攻擊過其他的女律師這不是秘密因為你從大眾從一般新聞就查得到那既然該名當事人他有這個前科有暴力傾向而且對法律法律專業人有敵意很深的敵意那為什麼這次開庭台中議員毫無做預防措施也沒有這個足夠的警力也沒有預先警示"},{"start":2963.57,"end":2983.538,"text":"就現場一塌糊塗應變一塌糊塗你剛剛稍微報告報告到了但是事實上應該都沒有落實啦你雖然有講到這個部分對跟委員報告確實沒有落實你說醫院他們都有規定可是你剛剛說標示但是事實上就沒有嘛就沒有嘛就讓事情就這樣發生沒有沒有跟委員報告"},{"start":2984.939,"end":3006.115,"text":"沒有事先防範是他們沒有落實可是現場的警力是有到就是沒有逮捕所以警力是足夠的對於這個有前科的有前科的這個暴力被告已經有發生了是不是說這個那這還是讓它發生嘛所以這個要檢討的事情蠻多的台中立院真的沒有落實"},{"start":3006.515,"end":3022.44,"text":"因為在法院上如果我們說談司法改革如果連律師的人身安全身邊都沒有辦法收到保障那真的要談後未來其他的事就是太遙遠了可是可以跟委員報告台中法院發生這件事以後應該是三天後就連續連續連續大概就是在積極的"},{"start":3027.682,"end":3038.111,"text":"教導法警安全管理機制啦 職務訓練啦應變原則他們就是一定要落實是最重要的謝謝秘書長還有司長"},{"start":3053.55,"end":3074.348,"text":"那麼由於議事錄先前已經去宣讀完畢了還沒有確定那麼現在我們就先確定議事錄那麼請問各位上次會議的議事錄有沒有遺漏或錯誤沒有遺漏或錯誤的話我們議事錄就確定謝謝再來請那個林沛翔委員代替我當主席"},{"start":3091.087,"end":3093.549,"text":"好 有請翁曉琳委員開始質詢好 那麼首先有請那個高祕書長好 有請祕書長好 謝謝祕書長我想這次我們安排 市委會安排有關於法警職權形式還有法院安全秩序的專題報告呢 當然也是"},{"start":3120.014,"end":3134.65,"text":"因為先前才發生在台中地院這個不幸的事件這個台中律師公會的理事長被當時人掌撥那其實這個影片畫面大家看了之後都覺得很震驚那麼怎麼可能會發生這樣的狀況而且當時法警都在旁邊那麼有沒有適時的應該要"},{"start":3141.637,"end":3155.129,"text":"這個採取就是警棍來制止這樣的行為或是有更積極的這個作為那麼可是大家看到的其實狀況就是說法警基本上沒有太多的積極的作為剛剛秘書長其實也講了認為說這次可能是法警在遲疑他在面對這樣的狀況的時候遲疑所以沒有辦法緊急的應變所以呢在這邊的話本席也想要提出的就是事實上我有去查過一些資料"},{"start":3168.2,"end":3194.793,"text":"那麼立法院在第九屆委員的時候就是第四會期當時也曾經辦過一場叫做法庭安全的公聽會那當時為什麼會辦理這個法庭安全公聽會呢是因為在106年那時候其實陸陸續續也發生了好幾起在法院裡面發生的一個暴力的事件所以當時那時候的主辦的召委應該是蔡易瑜委員所以召開了這個法庭安全公聽會"},{"start":3197.754,"end":3210.828,"text":"那也邀請了很多的專家學者然後以及法警工會的代表都有在現場那麼都有在談到有關於法警的一些職權行使的問題那包含譬如說編制員額不足職權"},{"start":3214.252,"end":3230.621,"text":"的依據不明還有法警的申請制度也僵化法警的人力組成老化還有法警的值班報酬過低等等這些問題那麼事實上到現在已經10年了那不知道司法院在這段時間裡面到底有沒有一些"},{"start":3231.941,"end":3250.833,"text":"這個更積極的作為怎麼樣去改善現在法警職權行使不明的狀況那麼因為呢如果說法警的這個他的整個的能力沒有辦法提升的話那當然一定會影響到法院的安全所以是不是可以請秘書長來告訴我們就是這十年來到底司法院做了些什麼"},{"start":3251.953,"end":3265.774,"text":"首先跟委員報告謝謝委員非常關心我們法警都會非常高興其實我們在108年就曾經就在法組法就這個法警職權行使把它明定"},{"start":3266.875,"end":3290.797,"text":"可惜那次就送進也送進大院因為屆時不連續就退回那當然我們後續就沒有再提出來那另外一個這是第一個法治部分那另外一個關於法警的職等陳儒委員剛所說在公聽會大家也提出來了其實我們也很努力可是這會牽涉到整個政府職等的問題老實說我們也蠻挫折的"},{"start":3292.318,"end":3315.648,"text":"那同樣的薪資也是一樣就好像書記官的薪資一樣要提高又牽涉到全國公務人員的薪資問題所以我們也很挫折我們真正最精進的方法罰警確實不夠各位如果去法院看只有刑庭有罰警民庭絕對沒有罰警可是我們不能說民庭沒有危險會發生可是"},{"start":3316.568,"end":3343.177,"text":"因為刑事案件他的張力比較大我們還是所有法警要投注在這個區塊所以民庭的部分老實說啦就是見警慮讓法警出出入入讓民眾看到知道法院有法警老實說民庭沒有警力那我們唯一能夠用的就是保全因為我們人力真的不足我們就用保全可是保全他只能單純的"},{"start":3345.118,"end":3365.096,"text":"維護秩序好了解了那麼其實呢我想這個罰警人力不足的問題這一定是要解決了這個就像是剛剛秘書長講的在每個法庭裡面他可能都會有遇到就是有他的行為或他情緒不穩定的當事人發生了這個不管是暴力的行為或是有一些緊急應變的狀況的時候真的是需要罰警來維護"},{"start":3368.499,"end":3386.722,"text":"那剛剛有講到其實因為一般的老百姓其實對於法警跟警察其實搞不清楚大家會以為法警是警察但其實法警不是警察那麼法警如果說按照你們現在法院組織法的規定的話他是歸屬於司法行政職務他更類似於像是一個司法行政"},{"start":3387.543,"end":3397.046,"text":"在性質的公務員而且法警目前的受訓看起來只有四個月不管是專業訓練加實務訓練事實上只有四個多月然後你們平時訓練實施計畫目前只要求至少四十個小時但是我有去看了你們的所列的訓練計畫的項目事實上這樣子目前的規劃夠嗎"},{"start":3410.43,"end":3428.113,"text":"而且對於整個緊急應變還有就是整個法警他在面對這樣有暴力的狀況緊急應變狀況的時候呢他的這個實際上的擒拿的技能或是他反制的技能這個部分的話平常是由誰來指導是由我們的警政署的教練去指導嗎"},{"start":3428.954,"end":3455.584,"text":"跟委員報告當然最主要是法院自己要去指導那我們會請警政署的人員來協助就是請拿這種專技部分可是我可以跟委員報告其實各法院都會要求法警一定要就像我講的要常常運動他要維持他的體力一定要維持體力不好意思我先打斷一下我是不是待會可以請那個林副局長"},{"start":3456.784,"end":3460.785,"text":"主席跟委員報告我在警大服務的時候我們罰警班都會到警大安排正常的課程來訓練訓練的話像有勤拿、柔道、警技這些都會加以訓練"},{"start":3483.141,"end":3508.066,"text":"那他們的標準就是他們的訓練的程度要達到什麼樣的標準呢如果說今天有一個身體強壯的一個當事人或是他可能本身也學一些功夫的話有可能制服嗎法警有可能制服嗎跟委員報告啦當然我們在警大四年四年全部都要上樓刀而且每個禮拜四小時那個程度當然是不一樣所以為什麼司法警察跟我們的法警"},{"start":3509.386,"end":3530.438,"text":"我們在111年的時候因為這種問題司法機關跟我們警政署簽訂一個一個受理的一些進入司法機關的程序那通常就是我們跟法警室還有我們線上巡邏跟我們勤務中心那大概通報通報了以後我們10接受接受報案了以後我們勤務中心會馬上跟法警室聯繫線上巡邏不過就是說你們這樣的聯繫中間還是會有一段時間是耽擱的那其實呢"},{"start":3535.021,"end":3563.279,"text":"現在就是說也有另外一種想法就是說有沒有可能法警未來全部都是改由像是由警政署這裡編制專門的警察然後就直接擔任在法院裡面駐守的法警就像是立法院我們有諸位警隊也是由警政署派保六等等來有這個編制"},{"start":3564.96,"end":3586.447,"text":"所以我們尊重司法機關最後的決定我們請求權力配合好 我認為說這個其實可以去思考一下有沒有這個可能性另外就是說是對於這個法警職權行使法的立法看起來我覺得還是有這個必要性否則的話現在因為蠻多專家學者有提到就是"},{"start":3587.487,"end":3603.019,"text":"對於法警的職權目前是不清楚的因為他職權不明所以至於法警他在真的什麼時機他必須要去制止他也覺得很惶恐萬一他做不好可能又會被懲戒"},{"start":3603.82,"end":3631.22,"text":"等等的所以這部分話可能也請司法院再思考是不是應該要盡速的也要提出法警的職權行使法還有本席也希望能夠了解就是近十年來就從106年之後到現在到底在法院有發生多少起的這樣的暴力事件之後也可能要請司法院再提供給我一份相關的資料好嗎好的請林副局長可以先回座接下來本席還有一個"},{"start":3632.481,"end":3655.675,"text":"事情我們知道其實大法官在上禮拜五他又做了一個新的憲法判決好115年的憲派制三號判決這次的憲法判決是針對邵氏法第十五條的後段而違憲那麼我想就是這個五人大法官他們到現在已經做成了四項憲法判決"},{"start":3656.736,"end":3676.339,"text":"那另外三位没有参与的大法官基本上他们都在例子都有提出所谓的不同意这个宪法判决的意见书那么面对而且一再的主张这个五人大法官他们的宪法法庭组成是违法的有缺陷的"},{"start":3677.94,"end":3701.989,"text":"面臨到這樣的一個狀況我想請問司法院院長到底有沒有請總統儘速提名大法官因為現在司法院院長是大法官兼司法院院長現在司法院院長代理院長是謝明揚大法官他有沒有曾經請求賴清德總統要儘速提名大法官"},{"start":3703.291,"end":3730.268,"text":"那因為大院長有沒有請求他個人的事情我也不便回答那可是我整體上可以回答委員的就是說因為提名權是在總統而且這是憲法保留的那以我們大院長的職務職位來講對於這個總統是不是要行使憲法賦予的提名權以及何時行使我們本院是應該要尊重的"},{"start":3731.047,"end":3759.063,"text":"是 可是這已經是構成一個憲法的危機了嘛對 它竟然是一個憲政的危機那麼更何況現在這個大法官是兼任司法院的院長那麼在院長一直不出缺的情況之下那又是由大法官來代理司法院院長那事實上會影響到整個司法院的院務的運作包含人事的安排啊 調動的等等啊所以呢 事實上我覺得憲法法庭然後來自於司法院都應該要"},{"start":3760.003,"end":3785.481,"text":"正式的行文或是正式的公開要發表公開的是個聲明請求賴清德總統要儘速提名大法官依照我們憲法訴訟法的這個規定本來他的要求就是要三個月之內吧兩個月之內就要必須要提名新任的大法官那麼大法官現在這個接二連三連三連四連五然後陸陸續續又做出了這個看起來是有明顯"},{"start":3787.602,"end":3806.908,"text":"違憲違法瑕疵的憲法判決這也會影響到未來基層的法院是不是應該要遵守大法官所作的憲法判決這真的是一個嚴重的憲政僵局那本席是希望秘書長可以把本席的期許或要求那待會給"},{"start":3808.488,"end":3833.004,"text":"謝明洋代理院長請他一定要盡速的請賴清德總統來提名大法官現在不是說立法院沒有審而是他根本沒有提名人選這造成這樣的憲政僵局其實國人看不下去對於法界來講其實也是造成非常非常嚴重的影響這個觀感非常的不好好不好 可以請秘書長把本席的意見帶回去"},{"start":3834.844,"end":3847.492,"text":"好的OK那就謝謝好那我們就是請司法院提供的資料就麻煩再來一個禮拜之內提供給本席好謝謝好謝謝翁小玲委員好我們接下來請林沛翔委員"},{"start":3864.915,"end":3875.023,"text":"好主席有請高秘書長慢慢來好請高秘書長"},{"start":3880.066,"end":3905.603,"text":"高明署長我今天主要談兩個議題一個發生在法院裡面一個發生在社會上面其實都同時都指向同一個問題我們的司法制度到底有沒有跟上現實呢先講我們今天最主要的主題就是有關法警的事情那台中地方法院一位當事人當場甩了律師公會理事長一巴掌重點不是在巴掌本身而是旁邊有法警啊"},{"start":3906.303,"end":3911.383,"text":"那罰警的反應不是制止 也不是壓制 而是安撫"},{"start":3913.278,"end":3936.884,"text":"這畫面有點讓人錯亂我必須這樣說法院裡面發生暴力行為最冷靜的不是制度是打人的人最溫柔的反而是法警那我就想請教司法院現在法警的SOP是什麼是先勸再說還是先安撫再評估還是要看對方情緒穩不穩定決定要不要執法甚至一個比較現實的問題如果今天被打的不是律師"},{"start":3937.924,"end":3960.365,"text":"是法官是檢察官那縣長的處置會不會還是如此的溫馨呢還是說司法體系裡面有所謂的身份的排序這問題不回答清楚外界很難不懷疑我們的執法標準是一致的還是有彈性的講得更直接一點現在法警的問題是不能處理還是不敢處理"},{"start":3961.758,"end":3978.592,"text":"如果是不能就表示制度設計是有問題如果是不敢就是訓練跟授權出了問題那兩者都非常嚴重法院是最後一道防線如果連法院裡的基本秩序都守不住那人民走進來是尋求正義還是參加風險體驗呢"},{"start":3982.455,"end":4000.793,"text":"所以我這邊具體請教三點第一是否該全面檢討法院的維安機制第二是否強化法警現場的應變跟執法訓練第三是否建立可以明確執行的現場處理標準而不是靠臨場感覺請秘書長回答"},{"start":4005.962,"end":4023.938,"text":"其實跟委員報告其實所有標準都已經訂立我剛剛就講了第一個我們一定要預防危險發生第二個在現場的時候法警應該第一個維持秩序的時候當有這種暴力發生的時候"},{"start":4025.84,"end":4044.502,"text":"應該我們撇開法組法的法源依據就我們內部的規定法警是可以制止的我們內部規定法警是可以制止的那這一件發生我們真的也是司法院還有這個各法院都是深深的在必須檢討"},{"start":4045.723,"end":4064.358,"text":"最重要的檢討就是一定要落實執行其實法警我們給他教育訓練很多了可是為什麼他不能把它當成他的DNA來當場反映出來為什麼會有這種遲疑是我們現在請各院務必要"},{"start":4066.481,"end":4094.018,"text":"讓法警要有這種本能的反應當然要依照比例原則所以跟委員報告那當然我們現在最重要的強化就是一定要落實再多的規定都沒有用其實我們真的規定多如流毛可是很可惜在這個事件裡面竟然沒有把規定落實出來這是我們最要檢討的地方所以因為規定多如流毛所以第一線的人員有點是用猜的在執法"},{"start":4094.158,"end":4121.469,"text":"不是不是不是 是這個意思嗎不是不是 他們也知道那老實講一巴掌直接轟過去了然後法警說不要這樣好不好這個你覺得如果是在我們的法我記得我們的法律體系好像常常採用在美國那美國的法律體系如果這個嫌犯還是當事人直接給律師一巴掌那法警會坐在那邊完全說你不要這樣嗎我想不太會吧"},{"start":4121.929,"end":4139.384,"text":"不是 真的 這個有點 民主黨這個有點全國民眾都在看這個聽到這感覺哪裡怪怪的不是嗎我就說真的沒有讓法警我不知道這位是不是剛剛進來法警不管是你剛進來或老法警"},{"start":4139.844,"end":4159.223,"text":"都要知道一定要維護所有走進法院裡面甚至在這個我們院語內的秩序的安全跟人身的安全其實這個是我們一直規定一直講一直講一直講可是在這個世界我們就看到確實沒有落實"},{"start":4161.968,"end":4189.886,"text":"我會認為秘書長我還是還是剛那句話不要讓第一線人員用猜的在指法明確可執行的現場處置標準這一次案子是個很明顯的一個案子剛剛不只松小林委員剛剛陳昭芝委員也都質詢過了今天是遇到一個女性的女性的當事人有過激的反應如果明天遇到的是一個雄壯威武比較而且比較有攻擊性的人那罰警是否"},{"start":4190.782,"end":4212.441,"text":"能夠保護到您剛剛講的目的保護到所有人呢這個明確而且可執行的現場處理標準這個最簡單的SOP我期待說我們司法院能夠盡快來去促成這件事情因為這是司法院的責任第二個案子我想要談就是社會上關注度非常高的新北哥口案"},{"start":4213.663,"end":4235.916,"text":"案子已經定驗了但是社會的不滿並沒有定驗這件事讓人不安的不是判決結果而是人民開始懷疑這套制度到底接不住風險我想這個案子全國都很注重被害人家屬講了一句很重的話司法接不住孩子要被害人來接"},{"start":4237.079,"end":4264.089,"text":"那這句話其實要問一件事我們的制度到底是在保護人還是賭運氣呢我要請教司法院面對這麼重大的案件你認為現行制度特別是這個邵氏法還符合現實嗎其實大家心裡都知道制度還停在30年前但是犯罪形態已經是2026的版本已經跟1996年1986年不一樣了現在的問題不是現在的問題不是沒有方向而是沒有速度"},{"start":4265.149,"end":4285.259,"text":"社會再問修法什麼時候來怎麼改誰負責讓我這邊提出三個方向也請司法院正面回應立場第一個重大暴力犯罪是否限制假釋對於故意殺人重傷致死這種案件是如果判刑十年以上是否明定不得假釋"},{"start":4286.68,"end":4306.692,"text":"現在的制度是時間到了就可以申請但是我的感受是傷害還沒結束人權可能就先出來了這個落差要怎麼解釋呢好 跟委員報告委員講一句話講得我個人也非常贊成就是說我們受試法是不是可以因應現代的"},{"start":4308.433,"end":4337.052,"text":"其實對於這一件新北哥口案因為他是當就是因為少子法的關係而造成很多中間的缺陷的出現其實我們對於假釋已經著手嚴厲已經應該草案已經出來了就說應該要分階層還有就說相關的少年問題還有被害人的參與我們都已經嚴厲草案出來我們會在最快最快的本會期送出來"},{"start":4337.543,"end":4359.351,"text":"既然司法院已經正面回應這件事情那本席也就特地提我第二個主張直接提高假釋的門檻啦對於這種重傷事實這種重大這種故意殺人這種案件目前是服刑三分之一就可以申請假釋那是不是可以直接提高到二分之一那不要讓刑期看起來很重但是執行的時候卻被直接打折啊"},{"start":4359.531,"end":4380.668,"text":"是是是 我們有提供三分之一 二分之一 三分之二都有就依照他再次犯罪的罪職來做不同的處置第三點我希望我的意見司法院能夠真正能夠納入因為很多 現在民眾對於法律對於司法是有極度的不信任因為有太多太多原因不管是我們看到的其他案件"},{"start":4381.228,"end":4397.956,"text":"還是目前這一個案子其實被害人的意見納入審查在於殺人跟重傷致死的時候被害人的意見納入審查現在很多家屬的感受是什麼判決已經很難接受後面假釋的過程那個聲音都沒有"},{"start":4401.41,"end":4416.983,"text":"秘書長你想想看如果說您當然是以一個專業公務員專業體制內的人去講一句話可是如果一般家屬苦民所苦一般家屬我自己有兩個小朋友那如果我的小朋友出事我一定"},{"start":4418.632,"end":4441.814,"text":"那個怒氣跟悲傷我是不知道怎麼去發洩的但是如果說這個人出來假釋的過程之內我連個聲音都沒有那我想請問我們現在先談法我們不談雖然這是個案但是我們直接從制度希望能夠把個案來去做一定程度的改善我們那個假釋是不是可以假釋是要納入被害人的陳述我們的草案裡面也規定了禁打"},{"start":4442.094,"end":4450.521,"text":"還有另外一個 審查結果必須說出具體的理由你不能說審查結果它可以了就這樣拼拼拼拼拼拼拼拼拼拼拼拼拼拼拼拼拼拼拼拼拼拼拼拼拼拼拼拼"},{"start":4467.974,"end":4483.381,"text":"對 沒錯 我想任何理由都是要具體的我想這個是我們草案裡面一定是我們很擔心的一句話叫做黑箱讓程序透明不要讓民眾直接認為司法就是在黑箱這點我覺得司法院必須要再做到"},{"start":4484.594,"end":4503.247,"text":"最後面我在幫民間團體這個還想陪你長大聯盟講一句話他們提的不是情緒是很務實的問題高風險家庭是誰在接社工跟保護官人力夠不夠心理輔導矯正體系有沒有接軌校園安全是誰在負責"},{"start":4505.309,"end":4522.27,"text":"這些問題的共通點只有一個不是單一機關而是要跨部會來解決所以我想請教司法院現在是否有這跨部會的整合機制還是各做各最後責任也是各自切割沒有 跟委員報告就是在家事部分我們講保護令各方面"},{"start":4523.271,"end":4540.923,"text":"或者是在少年部分其實跟什麼衛福部啦還有教育部啊我們是各機關一定要跨部會的因為這個少年的有教育的部分有醫療的部分甚至就是我們司法部分我們全力的是所有一定是跨"},{"start":4541.543,"end":4557.406,"text":"跨機關的結合那我也可以跟委員報告其實其他機關就是警政署他們也是全力因為這件事情啟發我們很多的必須要進步的地方現在是全力跨部會的"},{"start":4558.905,"end":4584.653,"text":"本席至少對於秘書長今天講說這個會期會提出版本這件事情本席給予肯定但是我期待的是說版本出來之後我們能夠好好開始討論不要讓這件事情已經發生的事情變成這個案變成未來的通案制度有錯就要改有不好的地方就要改要與時俱進這是我希望司法院能夠在這個案子上繼續做到的地方以上好 謝謝林沛翔委員"},{"start":4591.585,"end":4612.147,"text":"接下來我們有請林倩琦委員發言現在請我們司法院秘書長還有法務部的代表有請秘書長還有張司長"},{"start":4617.282,"end":4643.767,"text":"秘書長您好還有我們法務部的代表您好我想今天你們應該會碰到很多人都針對近期那個台中地院發生的事情然後提出很多的問題然後跟檢討那我想這件事情跟我們的司法專員還有人民的基本權利的一個保障的問題我想碰到一個很大的衝擊那本席今天要針對法警職權的法治化問題來跟您做請教"},{"start":4644.767,"end":4670.044,"text":"那麼這樣看起來這個事件我想剛才很多人做了一些說明那也就是說當整個法庭失控 資訊失控的時候呢那第一線的反應竟然是報警處理我想大家從這整個畫面或者是看到的資訊都還蠻難以想像的那我想社會大眾對於這個警政的這個概念或者是對於警察的想法或者是所謂的法警"},{"start":4671.245,"end":4695.865,"text":"我想在這個過程當中大家都蠻難理解的所以這樣講起來就是對司法的這個威信本身是一種傷害那今天呢其實剛才有幾位委員也有提出一些建議也就是說那這整個我們對於地檢署內部維護秩序跟安全的基本上就是法警人員但是關鍵時刻沒有辦法來發揮效用那很重要的核心就是法警職權的這個問題"},{"start":4698.047,"end":4712.703,"text":"那剛才也有警衛委員談到法警的這個法制的一個依據那麼警察人員在執行這個執法的時候有警察職權行使法與警察勤務條例來作為依據"},{"start":4713.544,"end":4740.747,"text":"那涉及人民自由與權利的措施都有明文的一個規定還有法律的一個程序的保障但是法警它基本上在執行拘提、解送那麼甚至限制人身自由等高度介入基本權利的行為的時候呢主要的依據竟然是法警執行職務、陰刑注意事項等行政規則那其實也像剛才這個秘書長您這邊所講的"},{"start":4742.645,"end":4770.523,"text":"我們從這件事情看到的真的是規定沒有用規定多如牛毛可是真的要用的時候卻使不上力所以呢如果法院地檢署的秩序需要積極來介入那法警會面臨可能會面臨被質疑或者是逮捕不合法甚至會遭到民事的一個責任的追究那這樣法源不明也不敢執行那麼法院地檢署的功能是不是有一點虛設"},{"start":4772.526,"end":4788.168,"text":"這樣的制度沒有辦法保障法警的情務安全然後也讓法官跟檢察官跟到場的民眾其實有在一個潛在風險當中本席也注意到法警的穿著跟警察的穿著還蠻高度一致的"},{"start":4788.669,"end":4806.381,"text":"但是職權跟法源卻完全不同我想這樣子的一個外觀跟實際的落差會造成社會上的一個誤解那對於整個執法體系的執行也沒有很實質的一個幫助所以接下來我想要請這個司法院法務部來做一個說明"},{"start":4807.722,"end":4832.928,"text":"那對於制定法警職權行使法來明確規範法警的職權範圍程序要件跟救濟的一個機制那麼司法院跟法務部的立場是如何那本席也有注意到在2017年其實這樣一個議題有被提出來過那本黨有一些委員其實有提到有關於法警職權行使法的相關法案但是當時"},{"start":4835.288,"end":4859.893,"text":"司法院跟法務部可能就覺得應該在法院組織法裡面去做處理就好了但是幾年過去了我們從這個事件看到當時你們的見解似乎在實務上是有一些落差的所以本席再次提出來這樣一個法制的訂定法源的一個比較強力性所以在相關立法"},{"start":4861.053,"end":4888.645,"text":"在可能完成之前那麼司法院跟地檢署有沒有短期的精進措施來強化法警來執行的法律保障跟現場的應變能力應變能力我相信你們應該會從這次的這個個案來做一些檢討但是我想幾年來還會發生這樣一個狀況可能我們真的要就這個法源跟法治層面去做一個制度性的處理那不曉得您對這個部分各位對這個部分的一個看法"},{"start":4889.325,"end":4914.86,"text":"跟委員報告我們那個法組法其實司法院是認為關於法警的行使職權就是說對強制力有這個妨礙到民眾人身的部分人身自由的這個我們認為是規定在法組法因為我們法組法裡面已經有規定關於法警職務其實現在只要"},{"start":4917.521,"end":4921.586,"text":"把這個法警的職務罵入關於這個沒有另外一個"},{"start":4923.234,"end":4949.422,"text":"不是基本上這還是一個行政規則就是一個規定嘛這樣法院組織法是法律我們就是要增加它的法源就規定在地方法院我們可以規定法警為了維護這個可以行使各種比如說可是你這樣定定的可是這一次是不是後來你們還要叫外面的警察來協助"},{"start":4950.422,"end":4978.78,"text":"因為最重要是就是說我們先講罰處罰部分罰處罰部分因為沒有訂定所以這個法警對於實施強制禁止可是我必須說其實對於現行犯的逮捕是不需要罰處罰的如果在法庭法院內部剛剛委員提到的這種暴力行為的發生根本不要用罰處罰就有了解這次發生這樣子的個案的原因是什麼嗎"},{"start":4980.943,"end":4994.332,"text":"當然有了解啊他就是這個整個案情我們都非常清楚真的必須說我們這個法警太客氣了其實並不是所有法警都要這個樣子啦其實很多法警絕對會"},{"start":4995.593,"end":5014.459,"text":"或許他可能知道的也很多然後考量的也很多就如同剛才我們所講的這個部分那這一些或許是他知道這一些規定跟實務上的落差那不能說量多的就一定是對量少的就可能有問題不能說這樣子所以這個個案不會讓我們看到整體性的一個制度是有問題嗎"},{"start":5015.219,"end":5037.19,"text":"你覺得這個依據是不是不夠強讓大家能夠直接這樣去執行他被賦予的權利或許在執行權利之後可能還有某一些空間會讓他陷入麻煩那搞不好這個法警可能有他各方面都了解了一些認知也說不定跟委員報告其實這一件真的是現行法不用法組法也可以做其實法警最難操作的是"},{"start":5037.87,"end":5055.224,"text":"我要檢查 我要禁止 這個是沒有法律規定譬如說進法院的檢查 我強制檢查 強制收身那種防範危險發生的 這個是法警最難做的其實剛剛講的陷阱算是絕對沒問題的"},{"start":5059.648,"end":5080.178,"text":"具有權力的人很多時候我們可以這樣講但是權力可能有落差的人他在執行上可能會有很多的考量我覺得這個部分是不是我們可以在這個制度缺口是不是不要再透過這樣一個行政規則來做點綴那如果回到法律未接是不是可以某種程度的來"},{"start":5081.718,"end":5097.607,"text":"因應這樣子的一個問題我想今天很多人也指出來就是說一個法律未接的這樣一個法是不是應該在這次事件裡面可以被考量跟討論對 沒有錯所以說我們才會說在因為法院組織法它是一個法律"},{"start":5098.635,"end":5125.934,"text":"那法院組織法也有法警我們要把法警的職權行使例如賦予法警一個很明確的這個法賦予法警一個很明確的法法警職權行使法這個我們待會去考慮我們會斟酌看到底法警是因為畢竟它在法組法裡面這一次所產生的狀況是如此那所以是不是可以再考量法警職權行使法在實際執行上的一個可能性"},{"start":5126.314,"end":5144.511,"text":"可以 我們可以考量 謝謝接下來本席要請教的其實還是對司法信賴度的一個問題也就是說這次懲戒法庭的院長的這個案件李院長的這個案件已經有判決了"},{"start":5145.572,"end":5161.741,"text":"那這個判決其實也引發社會的高度關注啦因為最重要的不是只有行為本身的惡劣那最重要的是行為人也身居高位但是呢卻成為違法失德的一個主體我想很多人都沒有辦法接受"},{"start":5162.441,"end":5191.23,"text":"那這樣從監察院的調查看來那相關的這個霸凌的行為長期是存在的但是內部機制也沒有辦法及早發現跟介入甚至可能在有介入的一個情況下其實還是有一些權宜的這個做法也就是說也等到這個院長這邊退休了之後那整件事情才做了一個處理所以這個案子所暴露的制度缺口司法院是不是有啟動一個全面的檢討"},{"start":5192.27,"end":5215.903,"text":"那目前在性騷跟霸凌的一個防治上你們有沒有什麼具體的精進措施那第二個部分是那針對高階官員的一個行為監督有沒有一個獨立或有效的申訴跟調查的機制那我們怎麼樣來避免權力的不對等那導致被害人投訴無門或者是投訴的時候可能沒有辦法及時有一些回應"},{"start":5216.903,"end":5232.823,"text":"那這個案子不僅是個案的一個處理啦我覺得借這個機會也可以做一個強化內部的治理跟人權保障機制的一個檢討讓司法的體系也能夠讓大家多一點信任那您的看法是如何"},{"start":5234.245,"end":5248.643,"text":"對於發生這種事情真的是對社會大眾我們也很抱歉可是關於霸凌的處理其實是完全尤其是現在因為公務人員職場安全及衛生防護法他這一次再修正"},{"start":5249.564,"end":5264.02,"text":"他已經有外部委員的參與那其實內部程序也是更積極了就是因為這次修正以後所以各個我們各法院都有相關的調查處理辦法我們第一個一定要讓同仁"},{"start":5265.14,"end":5287.534,"text":"勇於提出這個霸凌申訴那我們當然希望不要發生可是發生的話另外我們也要求各科室主管是要主動觀察當然主動觀察這個東西就大家去衡量那對於霸凌事件的發生我們整個除了通報以外後續的處理是完全依照程序來的"},{"start":5288.634,"end":5316.374,"text":"那當然這個事件的發生可能前面遭到各界質疑我們是處理的太慢其實在這個事件以後我們是強力規定整個程序是一步緊接著一步一定要不管這個霸凌有沒有成立一定要讓我們申訴的人他知道說我們這件事情怎麼處理另外霸凌一旦提出在有沒有成立之前我們也會做一個"},{"start":5317.415,"end":5341.342,"text":"隔開或者是職位的移動最少要讓大齡人他心情是平靜的好的 那咪師傅如果您覺得這個部分在規定上或SOP上面你們已經有做一些處理那我同樣的一個建議也就是像您剛才講的罰警那是不是在SOP的一個訓練上我想也是應該平常就要做一個訓練跟處理的"},{"start":5343.202,"end":5363.909,"text":"最後本席這邊要請教警政署關於警計的一個問題目前我們知道有爆發新聞裡面爆發出遠景勾結詐騙集團利用公務系統來查詢車手的通緝資料甚至到洩密跟偽造文書雖然已經深壓獲准"},{"start":5367.37,"end":5389.48,"text":"這也看到我們警政系統被濫用那甚至呢現在大家知道的詐騙猖獗結果我們竟然還成為一個助力所以雖然你們在警政系統這邊已經做了一些警示的機制但本席認為單純的一個查詢警示其實還是有某種程度的被動所以要請教你們"},{"start":5390.12,"end":5414.414,"text":"那針對這個個案警政署現在有沒有全面來檢視歷史的調閱記錄有沒有其他的異常行為那第二部分是那同步是不是有同步追查其他員警涉入的一個可能性那目前對員警查詢資料的監督機制有沒有建立一個定期回溯集合或是異常行為的一個分析還是大部分都是事後發現那"},{"start":5416.115,"end":5438.435,"text":"接下來是在查詢警示之外呢那警政署會不會更積極主導這個監督的一個措施那除了針對高風險的一個查詢的立即的預警那跨單位的比對不知道你們有沒有做比如說督察單位的主動抽查像這樣子的情形是不是可以請你這邊簡單做一個回應"},{"start":5440.663,"end":5455.963,"text":"主席 委員好我想警政署對於這些違法犯紀的同仁我非常痛心所以好幾次的經驗以後我們警政署由督察室主導的我們大概會把所有"},{"start":5456.784,"end":5474.333,"text":"查詢的異常流量的同仁都把它列印出來讓主管去主動集合這是主動式的而不是被動的那被動式的很多被動式的當然就是很多都已經發現這些異常了違法亂紀了那所以你們有沒有做一些跨單位的這個比較分析呢"},{"start":5475.994,"end":5501.956,"text":"有有有 異常的部分我們都控管甚至我們有些單位會自己研發一些電腦把一些參數設定出來出來以後 跑出來以後交給主管可是我們因為有7萬人那怪異肉案所以很多時候事實上這也是我們目前在整個風紀的部分查緝的一個重點那不管是我們每一週還有晚報等等這些都一再的去宣導"},{"start":5502.757,"end":5524.996,"text":"那這個部分當然是我們的大忌我們現在打詐是我們的重點工作那發生一樣一個案件跟詐欺集團勾結事實上我們就自己覺得那個影響就很大 是是是所以我們會深切檢討這部分那我們會積極來查緝好 最重要就是我們應該主動讓民眾安心是 是 有這部分我們在做OK 好 謝謝那這也提出了這個國家資訊權利被濫用的一個問題"},{"start":5527.398,"end":5539.986,"text":"那很重要一點就是說我們掌握越多的權力我們有越多的責任那這個責任就是如何讓權力相對不對等的民眾感到安全我想這也是很重要的好 謝謝"},{"start":5543.83,"end":5573.03,"text":"好 謝謝這邊的話你可能要提醒剛剛秘書長這裡因為林慶琪委員有特別提到司法院的工作場所性騷擾防治措施申訴及處理要點那這部分的話因為本席其實今天也有做一些study然後有發現你們似乎在外部的外聘委員的部分會不會有不足的地方因為好像沒有很清楚的公告揭示所以相關的資訊的話希望之後可以在司法院的網站上面都可以揭露好嗎"},{"start":5573.77,"end":5579.774,"text":"好 謝謝接下來我們請審發會委員巡大主席 我們請祕書長好 請祕書長"},{"start":5604.446,"end":5621.123,"text":"民進黨早安我想我們今天本委會所安排的這個主題這個當然剛剛前面委員都提到了之所以會安排這樣子的專題報告最主要就是因為兩個禮拜前發生在台中地院的案件引起社會的矚目"},{"start":5622.488,"end":5651.748,"text":"但是這個案件基本上我們今天的主題設定也把這個案件列出其實是兩個不同的面向第一個面向是有關法院安全維護的問題這是第一個面向另外一個獨立的面向就是有關於法警職權行使的問題剛才大概很多委員都是針對這些問題有的混雜在一起談把法院安全維護跟法警職權行使兩個混在一起談"},{"start":5652.388,"end":5674.369,"text":"那我覺得我們還是把它分開來談比較清楚我們把這個案子分開來所以我先就這個法院安全維護的部分來就教於秘書長我看我們今天司法院的專題報告其實很簡單只有幾頁但是你們大概就分成三大點第一點就是針對這個製造事件你們已經採取的相關措施這是你們第一點"},{"start":5675.33,"end":5704.317,"text":"第二點是針對這個個案你們的處置跟檢討這是第二點第三點就是你們後續要精進的作為因為這個案件你們後續要做什麼事情大概就是三個主題而已那我就針對這三個主題大概跟第一個部分我先針對這三個主題來討論有關於法院安全秩序的維護其實它的法源依據大家現在討論其實這個案件它是發生在法庭外"},{"start":5705.339,"end":5720.144,"text":"對不對 它是發生在法庭外嘛 對不對所以我們有關發生在法庭內的這個在法庭內的這個安全秩序跟法庭外的安全秩序它其實有不同的法源依據法庭內它其實很清楚就是法院組織法"},{"start":5721.684,"end":5743.997,"text":"這個第88條跟89條審判長在法院這個有關於開閉審理訴訟他都有指揮之權第89條就是說這個法庭開庭的時候審判長有維持秩序之權這個所有法源大概就在這一條所以整個法庭內基本上他的執行這個法庭內法庭安全的秩序執行基本上就是由審判長進行訴訟指揮"},{"start":5746.238,"end":5770.439,"text":"在法庭內就是審判長負全責那法警就是輔助的執行而已但在法庭外呢簡單講就是法院裡面但是在法庭外如果在法院外面當然就屬於一般的警察啦但在法院裡面但是在法庭之外這個安全維護呢這個目前是沒有法律的依據的"},{"start":5771.56,"end":5795.878,"text":"目前我看到的我們的法院依據就是法條依據大概就是各個法院大家自己制定的安全維護實施要點對不對是不是這樣就有關法院內但是法庭外就這次發生事情的這樣子的這個狀況它沒有法律依據它就是各個法院大家自己制定的所謂安全維護實施要點這就是他們的法條依據而已這個"},{"start":5799.114,"end":5814.9,"text":"這個整個法條依據最好它的執行就是由法警負責依這個要點來執行所以它的依據就只有這樣子這個說起來是我個人認為說這個是在法源上面有點不足這個部分這個"},{"start":5817.128,"end":5839.082,"text":"我希望司法院這個部分就這個法院內法庭外的安全維護的法源依據的部分能夠是不是在法院組織法或是相關的修法裡面把它做一個制定讓它具有一個真正法律的依據而不是依照實施要點這是第一點第二點我看你們剛剛講到這個書面報告你們針對這個我們剛剛講的第一點就是針對這個案子你們已經採取了相關措施"},{"start":5846.616,"end":5872.647,"text":"你們在講說,其實在鑑於114年,就是去年7月間發生的法庭內外的暴力滋擾事件你們在去年7月就發函要求各法院確實落實法院安全維護改善方案對不對你們去年發文是要求落實那這個改善方案,法院安全維護改善方案是在什麼時候制定的呢?"},{"start":5878.479,"end":5899.71,"text":"在105年9月30號制定這個法院安全維護的方案這個方案我等一下後續跟你討論這個方案其實所謂的這個法院安全維護改善方案其實跟這次的個案幾乎沒有關係因為他的這個改善方案是什麼?他其實規範的就是第一個法庭外面的"},{"start":5900.785,"end":5926.869,"text":"入口處他就規範入口處的安全檢查而已喔還沒有你剛剛講的收身啊調查這是對你們所以所以這個這個所謂所謂安全改善方案就是有關於法院的入口處的安檢這是第一個另外一個就是有關於人犯在法庭內的相關規範以及他的在法院裡面人犯的動線大概就這個規定而已在這一次的案子"},{"start":5928.049,"end":5944.321,"text":"他並不是人犯 他還是訴訟主體他並不是在押人犯所以並不在你們的這個安全維護改善方案裡面所以即使你要求他落實這個安全維護改善方案也跟這次的案子無關 對不對是不是這樣 民主黨"},{"start":5945.675,"end":5959.95,"text":"其實要跟委員報告這個其實那個是強化法院安全維護方案其實剛剛委員提到的對於這個法警在法庭外"},{"start":5960.791,"end":5989.21,"text":"怎麼一個處理其實我們都有規定沒有沒有剛剛那個改善方案沒有啊改善方案是沒有可是這個是就像委員剛剛提到的各法院他們對於法庭以外法院內的秩序安全的維護都有自己的辦法我知道我現在可以討論你們接下來你們在第三點你們提到後續的經營作為裡面你們第一個說"},{"start":5990.231,"end":6012.099,"text":"你們就是說的第四點你們說要研議制定標準化的指引要優化訴訟指揮的效能這裡面你們提到第一個要制定法院安全維護指引也就是相關的SOP目前沒有這目前沒有所以你們要制定第二個你們要強化法庭內脫序行為訴訟指揮指引你為什麼寫強化就是現在已經有了"},{"start":6013.038,"end":6028.689,"text":"就法庭內的這個指引其實你們已經有了但是在法庭外就是這次發生事情的法庭外的部分你們目前沒有指引對我們對於這就是真的是各法院在我們並沒有制定指引這個我們要改進所以這個部分你們要制定是是是"},{"start":6029.429,"end":6051.101,"text":"那這部分我是希望說我們把這個法源依據大家都搞清楚在哪個部份我們需要加強哪個部份的指引法庭內法庭外我們把它分清楚才有辦法才不會說整間的喇喇做回住像今天有的在談法庭內的秩序然後再談這個然後把他拉來這個個案其實都不是這次的個案很簡單就是法庭內"},{"start":6052.355,"end":6064.625,"text":"在法院內但是在法庭外這個是目前法制上面的漏洞這部分我希望說能夠做補強那我們今天的第二個主題是有關法警的職權行使"},{"start":6066.094,"end":6089.024,"text":"剛剛大概也有委員整個討論就是有委員大家就著重在這個法警職權刑事法的部分但是其實我們目前我們這些法警法警的任用資格其實他的任用資格的法源就跟一般警察不一樣他的任用資格是按照司法人士條例"},{"start":6090.124,"end":6112.794,"text":"的這個第四條第一項第九款他所制定那他的任用資格也跟一般警察一般警察是用警察人員任用條例但是我們這個法警他是用司法人員人事任用條例的這個第26條有關這個這個其任用資格有法律定資那有法律定資之後呢我們這個這個這個就就"},{"start":6115.695,"end":6121.441,"text":"定在哪個法律裡面呢定在法院組織法裡面對不對就定在法院組織法裡面那所以這個"},{"start":6123.735,"end":6146.032,"text":"目前大家所認為說現在法警執行上面他們的法源依據不足這個法警執行職務的法源依據不足確實是法源依據不足那要如何改善這個法源依據不足過去其實司法院並不是沒有做司法院在108年就提出了法院組織法的這個修法草案而且送到立法院來審查"},{"start":6147.333,"end":6166.761,"text":"但在立法院審查的時候就分成不同的意見有的意見是支持盡快的由法院組織法修法來明定這個法警的這個職權行使但是有的意見就認為說不應該在法院組織法裡面訂定他應該要另訂這個法警職權行使法對不對"},{"start":6168.402,"end":6186.633,"text":"好那我個人認為這樣子啦你要定在哪裡都可以但是你就是要把現在目前法警執行這個執行職權他的這個法律上面的目前的缺的缺漏的部分在法治上面趕快把它補足對不對所以你們要定你們認為應該定在法院組織法也很好"},{"start":6187.313,"end":6206.825,"text":"那時候因為屆期不連續沒有送是不是再送進立法院來 是好不好 是什麼時候送進來 我們在周會期周會期 周會期把法 你們看是我們就回去你現在要訂定 你要重新訂定一個罰警職權行使法可能又要經過一個一個你們內部的程序又要這個會"},{"start":6210.427,"end":6233.765,"text":"會賢各個單位但是我們其實108年的法院組織法修正草案它已經是都經過這些程序了你只要送進來就可以了啊對不對所以這個部分先送進來大家我們委員會來討論我們立法院大家來討論有意見的話大家再來決定是不是要通過你們的法院組織法你看你們法院組織法的修正草案完不完備嘛對不對那這個部分齁其實"},{"start":6238.9,"end":6262.719,"text":"現在的這個警察跟這個法警他職權行使實在是警察你有警察職權行使法法警現在目前執行的依據都是一個行政規則而已啊所以當然是這個法律位階不足啦那最後一點點再一點點時間就是說談到法警了我們就來談法警人力的問題啊我們法警人力現在目前法警人力的配置這個秘書長你看這個這個"},{"start":6264.983,"end":6291.69,"text":"我按照我們的統計每年的案件量我們目前法警的配置最多的是台北地方我拿這個資料是檢察署不好意思可能請法務部法務部其實法院你一樣我們法院也是一樣我這個統計資料目前這個法警的配置台北地方台北地檢署"},{"start":6292.843,"end":6295.347,"text":"台北地院法警的人數是最多"},{"start":6314.338,"end":6332.75,"text":"台北地方法院是一百零四人最少的金門分院一個法警而已我們剛剛前面的那些安全指引甚至人犯的押解要求兩個有相關案件要求兩個法警押解但是在金門只有一個法警要哪裡生第二個法警來押解公務員報告應該是七個"},{"start":6335.533,"end":6363.062,"text":"現在已經有7個法警了但是你看看台北地方法院104個法警他一年的案件有多少案有61萬個案件61萬個案件有104個法警來負擔那顯然再加上法警其實除了維持法警的秩序他還有巡邏還有值班還有等等還有很多的其他的職務"},{"start":6363.962,"end":6388.469,"text":"我個人認為法警這個量人力是絕對不足啦這部分我希望說你們能夠有一個改善的規劃現在我們有點依賴說要依賴保全人員那保全人員完全沒有法律依據保全人員的法律指責完全沒有任何法院在法院裡面的保全人員說要輔助法警他連輔助法警的法律依據都沒有"},{"start":6389.67,"end":6393.823,"text":"這部分我希望說我們司法院把這部分都把這些漏洞都把它補起來好不好"},{"start":6397.331,"end":6418.8,"text":"謝謝沈委員的詢答那麼剛剛沈委員提醒就是說其實司法院在108年當時有提出法院組織法的修正草案我也希望說是請你們盡速回去討論好看看是不是再重提法院組織法的修正草案因為我覺得這個很重要好不好好那接下來再請張雅琳委員發言"},{"start":6428.845,"end":6433.353,"text":"謝謝主席有請司法院秘書長好有請秘書長"},{"start":6437.825,"end":6466.384,"text":"謝謝秘書長那我想今天大家其實都一直不停的在討論有關於台中定院律師在法院內遭施暴的案件那其實呢這位這位林姓被告呢他其實已經是累犯了在2024年2025年就已經多次對不同的律師有傷害恐嚇的行為甚至在2025年11月高人法院台中分院開庭的時候也曾經違反法官維持法庭秩序的命令也就是說他並不是一個毫無徵兆"},{"start":6467.865,"end":6491.199,"text":"然後無法預見的個案它是一個具有高風險的對象2月10號才在法院炒過價3月17號開庭的時候竟然完全沒有完善的預防措施我想我們現在其實是有事前風險評估的機制對不對那到底這個風險評估是為什麼會失靈呢可以針對於我們事前已經發生那麼多次的訊息警告視而不見是不是可以請秘書長簡單說明一下"},{"start":6492.54,"end":6507.616,"text":"我真的很抱歉,我這一件其實真的事前就知道訊息,那就是要怎麼說呢,他就是沒落實,明明知道了,那應該要怎麼處理,都應該要做了,那我只能說他就是沒做。"},{"start":6509.442,"end":6529.154,"text":"但是我想這一件 因為已經不是第一次被打 也不是只有這個地方失靈而是整套系統在各個地方的落實都失靈可是我可以跟委員報告啦 真的這一件在台中地院發生因為我當過院長 其實在我的法院是不會發生的"},{"start":6530.903,"end":6553.855,"text":"我一定是落實我們出乎意料之外其實王院長也被我重重的責備了一下怎麼會失靈這個是各法院的SOP啊真的是SOP啊不應該失靈竟然失靈真的跟全國抱歉真的是我只能就只能這樣說而已"},{"start":6555.851,"end":6561.234,"text":"我想這個應該是要充分的檢討我們到底是這個訓練不落實沒有落實訓練還是我們的事前風險評估的機制不夠完善我想這個是需要"},{"start":6576.943,"end":6597.21,"text":"這個司法院來好好的檢討不然說我覺得如果我們事前風險評估我就必須釐清真相問題在哪裡我們才能夠去確保我們的法院內的一個安全那再來就是說司法院其實事後已經對外表示未來會依案件性質還有當事人的身心狀況及相關情資強化事前風險評估"},{"start":6598.77,"end":6615.916,"text":"並研議更明確的法院安全指引也會考慮動線增派罰金等措施那我想問一下現在的指引進度到哪裡應該我們私情聽對我們這個我想我們下個禮拜下個禮拜"},{"start":6617.396,"end":6640.644,"text":"應該就會把指引公告給讓各法院能夠明確的他應該要各個點我想斷點一定要把它做好這個是我們希望下個禮拜能夠把它發佈出去發佈出去但是我想剛剛也有講到我們事前風險評估這個機制以前都有但是沒有落實所以接下來這一套你要如何落實呢"},{"start":6641.325,"end":6649.804,"text":"老實說啦因為公佈我想可能沒有什麼用啦所以落實的方法是什麼其實要落實其實不難"},{"start":6651.559,"end":6674.425,"text":"第一個一定要告知其實這個SOP都有當事人以前也都有嘛對不對所以我現在要問的是說以前也都有現在你的精進措施是什麼嗎我們才能夠確保說這不是只是一份文件嘛而是真的能夠保障我們法院內的人員的安全嘛對不對對所以我最簡單的方法"},{"start":6675.305,"end":6687.072,"text":"你既然前面已經有評估這個訊息一定是送到院長室跟政風室這兩個單位一定就是立刻啟動那有時候就是在這邊有個斷點斷掉"},{"start":6692.158,"end":6703.616,"text":"斷點是什麼意思其實這一件就只到行政廳長行政廳長我必須說有時候有些人對於風險的意識度"},{"start":6705.979,"end":6725.17,"text":"沒有那麼高他交給法警去執行的時候他沒有再度的去check其實這個各法院應該要做到的他其實就是他那個緊密度一定要維持住所以我們就在指引一定要每個等於是一節一個環節一個環節一個環節要告訴他們都要落實到"},{"start":6729.395,"end":6749.037,"text":"我想這個就是回應到我剛剛講的啦我想一個完善的檢討然後還有再簡單一個報告給我們讓我們知道說接下來你如何針對這一些落掉的地方你們如何在這一次的風險評估指引出來之後如何的落實精進那再來還有就是說我也想要請教法務部"},{"start":6750.018,"end":6766.245,"text":"就是說這類的個案的精神評估狀況以及預防性的處置問題像它過去其實已經一再的出現了傷害恐嚇甚至在司法場域有反覆脫序暴力的傾向那其實檢察官在偵查的過程之中就應該不只一次處理過了那而是"},{"start":6767.285,"end":6795.675,"text":"所以我想是不是應該要整體來評估這個人到底有沒有持續的危險性那如果已經有相當的跡象的顯示的時候呢其實制度上不是完全沒有工具可以使用嘛我們其實是可以申請暫時申請暫行安置或是採取更積極的強制處分理論上都應該要納入評估啦所以終結後來也認定這個被告有這個反覆犯罪之餘並向法院申請羈押而且獲准囉既然最後都能夠認定到這個程序那為什麼案發前呢我們沒有對這類的"},{"start":6796.775,"end":6797.636,"text":"如果相關的那個被告"},{"start":6818.43,"end":6840.016,"text":"有這樣子的一個記錄那可能有一些風險存在的話那事實上檢察官不管在公訴立庭的時候也都會有跟法院一些相關的聯繫來做提醒那在偵查的部分也都會有一些依照這個他的風險來做這個相關後續的處置作為所以意思聽起來是法務部其實有把應盡該做的事情都做了對不對"},{"start":6840.922,"end":6856.153,"text":"嗯 相關的風險我們都會在所有的案件去做相關的考量好 了解好 謝謝好 那我想還是這個就是司法院的那個精進報告啦聽起來是這樣子謝謝 法務部可以請回了那我繼續回到司法院"},{"start":6857.114,"end":6882.155,"text":"那我接下來就是要問這個法警的問題那剛剛其實審法會委員也有問一樣的問題就是說我們在法院組織法其實是應該要去明定他的一些職長因為他畢竟要有明確的授權他才能夠去做事情那剛剛也有聽到說這個會期會送進來那我想還有另外一個問題就是說因為其實我們在法警他有送份授權但是他能不能去判斷"},{"start":6883.857,"end":6897.591,"text":"這個時候他可以做那這個部分應該也是要充分的之前訓練他才能夠做到這個判斷他才敢下這樣子的決定去做這件事情可是我們看了一下剛剛講的是人力的問題剛剛審發會委員講的是人力的問題現在我要講的是之前訓練的問題"},{"start":6902.898,"end":6925.343,"text":"我們現在它的原則上訓練只有1到3週連同食物訓練合計4個月而平時的訓練目前則是至少40小時可是因為他們現在面對的風險狀況其實不是只是秩序維持包含剛剛講的那個突發暴力應變然後疑似精神狀況不穩定的這個情緒失控的個案他們都要處理所以我認為我們的之前訓練的內容跟時間"},{"start":6928.684,"end":6955.362,"text":"是不是也應該要評估 一致的去調整 或者是延長呢不曉得 林署長的看法是什麼是的 從這件事件其實我們早期都過於重 非常重視大部分時間其實會花在體力上的訓練比較多還有一些就是法規上的了解對於這個緊急應變這種概念的訓練真的 我們是不足 我們必須要承認所以這個事件以後也讓我們看到"},{"start":6959.084,"end":6983.279,"text":"去訓練就說除了這個訓練以外其實我也強定非常的強力要求各法院其實每天都有值錢要跟法警談話其實每天在值錢談話的就說那應該叫名字叫做早上的自己那個勤務宣導勤務宣導每天早上都有"},{"start":6984.301,"end":7004.473,"text":"其實那個時候 應該就要有做得出來因為我們看了一下過去好像似乎也沒有真的罰警去執行過去你們現在可以授權他們使用的一些工具上面有警棍我不是說警棍而是在那些判斷那些情況下他可以執法我覺得這件事情是罰警"},{"start":7004.693,"end":7031.862,"text":"她並不清楚的所以我認為其實不是職勤務訓練這件事情而是說到底哪些狀況下要非常的明確讓她知道這種情況她是可以做的她可以執行的我覺得這才真正是可以維護我們法庭內的秩序那當然法庭外剛剛其實審法會委員也有提到我認為這也是我們現在缺乏的一塊因為現在出手的現場已經延伸到這個走廊這個通道的地方這個也是"},{"start":7033.082,"end":7052.755,"text":"請一併放在我剛剛講的這個經濟報告裡面一起提供給我那想要知道大概什麼時候可以提供給我我們在指引發布的時候同時就會寫出但是經濟措施包含對於罰金這些所有的所以就是一個禮拜嗎還是兩個禮拜兩個禮拜兩個禮拜好不好謝謝"},{"start":7057.338,"end":7075.263,"text":"那最後一題我想要再延伸一下就是這幾天網路上針對柯文哲案的判決結果出現了一些討論那有些人因為不滿判決結果不管是先回到法律程序啦不是談上訴談救濟而是直接把矛頭指向法官檢察官本人甚至喊出要人民直選法官直選檢察官"},{"start":7075.803,"end":7096.213,"text":"要用選票把這些人淘汰掉那我今天其實我們要討論這個判決的結果我要講的是說在法治國家不服判決的正當程序就是上訴、抗告是循審及就據而不是由群眾的壓力去逼迫司法讓步更不是威脅檢察官、司法官去對他們發起政治動員或是網路霸凌"},{"start":7096.593,"end":7124.713,"text":"所以我現在要考慮的其實是法官檢察官的人身安全因為現在已經社群上出現了對這個受命的法官許芳瑜的點名已經說記得給這位法官愛的關照這樣子的話其實就已經有非常明顯的一個威嚇的意味所以我認為現在講法院的秩序已經不是只有這個實體空間包含虛擬的空間都應該要一起的來考量因為這樣子的法官被網路上面點名罷名"},{"start":7125.673,"end":7148.121,"text":"霸凌不是只有他自己 包括他的家人可能都有風險那我們看了一下美國有一些針對於高風險的案件上面他們對於法官其實是有一些保護措施那我不曉得說我們現在是不是也可以針對像一些比較高風險的案件把它盤點出來那我們也有一些相對應的保護措施來保護這些法官"},{"start":7148.621,"end":7166.09,"text":"是的其實我們院內對於法官就個案除了有一個矚目案件的這個列表以外也會主動法官其實沒有說提出來也會主動詢問他需要有哪些保護措施我們甚至"},{"start":7167.631,"end":7188.362,"text":"會派專員一段時間的可能上下班尤其是我們在公共空間送他上車或者是哪個階段他認為需要被保護我們也會跟警政單位聯繫這個我們一定要盡到最大的保護所以謝謝委員"},{"start":7189.503,"end":7214.98,"text":"了解 但我想因為現在聽起來好像比較是針對於上下班的部分據我們了解也是上下班的部分但是美國好像有更擴充那我不曉得說我們是不是也可以參考一下這部分我尊重你們的專業判斷我們是不是可以針對其他國家對於這些注目案件上面提供給我們的法官這些司法人員更安全的保障那是不是也可以評估一下那大概可不可以再大概評估多久時間給我們一個評估的結果那我們應該也是兩個"},{"start":7219.534,"end":7220.454,"text":"接下來我們請莊瑞雄委員發言"},{"start":7246.265,"end":7257.021,"text":"謝謝主席 有請我們司法院高秘書長好 請高秘書長還有我們司法行政廳吳廳長法務部檢察司司長"},{"start":7265.603,"end":7283.343,"text":"那今天我看我們翁小玲召委今天排這樣的一個專題的一個報告其實代表我們立法院對於整個法庭實務所發生的事情其實都表達及時的一個關心整個制度怎麼樣來建制 這個其實是非常重要的一件事情"},{"start":7284.023,"end":7310.416,"text":"我想這次台中地院這樣的一個發生暴力事件雖然打得耳光的是律師公會的一個理事長只是這個是剛好對象讓社會引起注目其實不管是不是打到律師公會的理事長或者是律師或者一般民眾這個都必須要特別來做一個看看制度上需不需要如何來做一個精進的一個問題"},{"start":7311.596,"end":7330.028,"text":"那我看這一次大家看到這樣的一個事件爆發以後本席的看法就有一點不太一樣應該是從整個制度的一個根本來看我一直都認為說這個法警這個法警到底以現在來看的話"},{"start":7331.469,"end":7360.924,"text":"這一次大家的評論是在說律師批評現場法警沒有用現行犯去逮捕後續的開刑就變成一個不公開的一個審理了那律師公會全聯會也呼籲司法院去正式建立對律師人身安全防護的一個機制是對律師的安全防護必須要這個機制要去建立對一般進入到這個法庭的人身的一個防衛機制都必須要去做一個建立光去譴責我看意義不大"},{"start":7361.844,"end":7380.652,"text":"基層的法警會講說我只是穿著警察的制服而已但是我的職權跟法院跟警察完全都不一樣我不曉得秘書長怎麼去看待這件事情以現在法警的定位跟職權來看的話"},{"start":7383.851,"end":7411.166,"text":"我30年前也開始就在這個法院裡面這樣在行使律師的一個職務但是呢我相信法警它其實它真正的一個職務其實在支援整個審判的一個工作那支援這個審判工作呢也就是說它的角色其實跟它在服務整個審判秩序的一個維持那跟一般的警察那是完全不一樣的"},{"start":7411.866,"end":7415.172,"text":"那你警察是負責治安的維護啊犯罪偵查啊 蒐集證據啊那我看這三個你認為會跟法警會有所一樣嗎我請教秘書長"},{"start":7423.919,"end":7441.369,"text":"謝謝委員提到這個法警的工作當然跟一般警察是完全不一樣就像誠如委員所說的他重要是在法院的審判所以我的意思是說司法院跟法務部這邊的間諜其實是一樣的法警跟警察"},{"start":7441.989,"end":7461.476,"text":"他的職權是完全是不同的啦那你制度上來講的話你說他不是警察但實務上的話你看這次大家就要求你就必須要用警察的一個標準來看待這件事情了在要求這些法警這個我看起來也是不通你說一般法院跟檢察署會發生一些突發的狀況被告會脫逃或者在後審室裡面可能會產生一些衝突或者被告他也有可能自傷啊他也有可能去傷人啊"},{"start":7470.999,"end":7490.969,"text":"那甚至於就大家擔心的結球的問題那這一些你說全部要要求我們現在的法警去在現場做第一線的處理如果站在法警的立場來看的話那他到底有沒有足夠的法定權限可以處理這第一個要去思考的地方那第二個就是說"},{"start":7492.651,"end":7500.625,"text":"我看你法務部跟司法院你們其實應該好好去回答社會的是說如果沒有明確的司法授權的話"},{"start":7502.315,"end":7505.737,"text":"你這個法警發生這種事情的話搞不好他還要打110等警察來幫忙處理這個空窗期責任到底誰來負的問題所以這個職權的部分法務部跟司法院這邊你們的看法到底是什麼有什麼樣的法源依據來要求我們這些法警"},{"start":7526.16,"end":7541.532,"text":"其實就關於維持法庭秩序這個部分像執庭執行警衛解送人犯還有那個司法警察事務這是刑事訴訟法其實在解送人犯這個整個過程就涵蓋了"},{"start":7542.423,"end":7571.65,"text":"那個候審室的維護安全那解送人犯中秩序的維持他是有授權的唯一其實最大沒有授權就誠如委員所說的在那個法院法庭外的空間這一塊是都沒有所以我們必須要這個部分要讓在希望能夠在法院組織法明確規定讓法警有法院依據不要再遲疑"},{"start":7572.352,"end":7596.563,"text":"那我相信你這樣 民主黨這樣有一個答案我看你可能到立法院來 叫初登板嘛那你第一次嘛 其實很誠懇啦那翁委員其實他弄這樣一個專報的話我相信他也會支持你啦 立法院也會去支持但是碰到一個問題喔你說立法院我們朝野 我跟翁委員我們兩個來支持你們大部分大家應該比較不會有反對的一個意見這個沒有黨派之分嘛但問題有一個"},{"start":7599.224,"end":7624.755,"text":"就是說我全部給你的職權達到跟一般警察一樣啦或者維護整個法庭的一個秩序這個民眾也認為該去做一個確保可是你看現在缺員的問題啊你這個欠人你不要跟他說是我以前剛在當小律師的時候我看到以前那個台北地檢那個是光頭警長嘛對吧我想說他多大你知道嗎"},{"start":7626.404,"end":7653.052,"text":"結果 蛤 他是委任好像是五職等還是六職等而已六到六職等那也就是說呢法警長到七我的意思是說你法警的人力其實是不足啦是穿衣服衫好看而已啦真的是穿衣服衫好看而已啊你的待遇跟一般警察也不能比啊你的位階關節也不能比啊那你說你要留住人力那所以呢 你這個喔"},{"start":7654.076,"end":7665.418,"text":"工作量也會增加啦你檢查機關或者是法院你這個人力調度多你必須要去大幅的增加我看你們這幾年是好像請了保全了嗎"},{"start":7666.634,"end":7693.022,"text":"對,跟委員報告,真的委員指到我們的痛點剛剛委員是講法源,說講法源其實同樣的,人力,法警的人力絕對不足那為什麼人力不足?我們受到總原額法控制住是對,根本我們剩不到一百個餘額可以用了其實各法院如果這樣算起來的話你法警要增加,真的是我們是抓金劍走的"},{"start":7694.331,"end":7722.99,"text":"總原額法的一個限制這當然是你們現在碰到一個最大的一個問題啦那其實喔我看整個從2016年整個刑事訴訟法的一個變革以後啊你說夜間不詢問制度上路以後啊你法院本來就比較長的時間你必須要去戒護叫這個羈押的一個被告那還有你看現在社會發生了這麼多集團性的一個犯罪以後人也人數也越來越多"},{"start":7724.191,"end":7740.638,"text":"那監察院又去糾正你們不能用借物為理由對被告任意施用借據否則就是違反公民跟政治權利國際公約的一個人權保障監察院講這個有他的道理可是會增加你們在整個實務上的一個困難"},{"start":7741.638,"end":7764.33,"text":"那你看大法官會議解釋785號他就講說你工作時間的上限加班的一個上限輪班間隔的部分這個輪班的一個公務員更換秩序至少要連續11個小時的休息的一個時間從刑事訴訟法的制度的變革到整個社會集團性案件的一個暴增然後再"},{"start":7765.82,"end":7785.871,"text":"監察院在踢你們一腳然後在整個大法官會議又跟你講說有這樣的一個限制以後讓你們更難去做人力的一個調配啦但是總原額法裡面它當然是框住的再來看看怎麼突破但是呢現狀之下呢其實你們還是可以有一些作為啦"},{"start":7786.331,"end":7805.42,"text":"你像譬如說訓練啊一般的專業訓練的方式你要怎麼去做一個提升讓法警雖然他本個工作性質跟警察不同不能畫上等號可是總是啊讓他對於整個勤務的流程突發的狀況該怎麼處理你們這些訓練的部分譬如說特定的訓練啊平常的訓練啊你們會說有"},{"start":7812.723,"end":7830.95,"text":"有的你也沒有一個規定出來沒有一個制度出來像譬如說我訓練的目的到底要幹什麼時間要多長去做一個規劃的話把他們整個訓練把它給提升了我相信對你們還是有幫助的尤其是人不夠 薪水的部分"},{"start":7833.371,"end":7861.232,"text":"像這一些 如果沒有去做一個妥善的一個因應的話人要因緣 你要救母 我不知道秘書長 阿喜 法務部你們的看法是怎麼樣是辛苦 沒錯當然訓練 我們是剛剛已經都講 一定是加強再加強那薪水部分能夠提高 當然希望大院 還有我們行政院能夠支持這個是最好的這個 你看一般來看的話 你如果訓練不足的話"},{"start":7862.873,"end":7868.327,"text":"你這個實在是這種狀況你要避免它發生也很困難可是本席的看法是這樣"},{"start":7869.608,"end":7897.961,"text":"我跟汪委員對不管是各行政部門裡面人手的部分其實我們大部分都是在支持你們的因為你常常你讓你一個制度喔讓一個在這邊從事這個工作的人對他的職業我看不到前景啊我看不到前景那你就變成你要讓他如果去看到那個前景然後降低那個流動率喔這個是行政部門在缺人手你首先要去解決的啦你這個如果沒有去解決的話說其他的喔"},{"start":7899.542,"end":7919.067,"text":"不好了 是那個官等那麼低啦薪水就是這樣子啦工作時間還是那麼還是那麼長啦啊 大家要做的事情放過要是一樣這麼多啦你說 這樣要怎麼去維護整個法庭的一個安全品質原木求魚你做一個總結看看我要聽聽你的看法"},{"start":7919.887,"end":7942.197,"text":"第一個當然訓練措施我們剛剛一直提一直提一直提我們絕對要做到那再來委員提到的怎麼讓法警願意投入這個工作值等薪水真的是我們是要求各機關來共同達成一個士氣的維護薪水一定是最重要的"},{"start":7944.478,"end":7952.183,"text":"訓練部分是司法院該做的我們絕對務實讓各法院一定要照一個環節一個環節一個環節的仔細去落實"},{"start":7955.287,"end":7974.493,"text":"這樣你硬拿得出來嗎?你不能在這邊答覆啊剛剛跟那個報告說我們那個給各法院的強化措施是我們下個禮拜就頒布給各法院那剛剛另外一個委員質疑的我們的各項的小節的精進方法我們一個月內那個是訓練那很好"},{"start":7977.054,"end":7994.514,"text":"我相信翁委員跟我所關注的就是說你人受盡要貼心人要有膽你那個官等穿著衣服看起來像警察他只是他法定職權又不是警察你怎麼樣留住這些人讓他們看到他們整個職業的一個前景這個你要有保安不然你這樣一年而已回去沒了"},{"start":7996.316,"end":8013.124,"text":"我們會跟著法處法修正它的法源希望能夠在這個職等上面也跟著突破你K出來我們兩個招委盡量來跟你們幫忙那像這一次啊本席也參與整個律師法的共同的一個提案強化這個司法跟相關職場"},{"start":8017.265,"end":8043.291,"text":"這個職業場所的安全防護的一個義務你去明定禁止妨礙律師執行職務規範的刑事責任我們也期望說朝野之間大家共同來支持來保障律師職業安全不受非法的一個干擾但是本席剛所提出的秘書長你也很正面的一個回應我們也希望趕快你送到立法院大家好好來你們各個機關哪一個地方該去突破不然"},{"start":8043.911,"end":8058.66,"text":"不用幾年 因為這個馬上又爆發出來你這樣人流不掉啦一個工作看不到願景的齁這個你說要限制降低他的流動率很困難的啦要加油一下好不好好 謝謝委員 謝謝"},{"start":8060.489,"end":8082.357,"text":"好 謝謝莊瑞雄委員的發言我跟莊昭偉我們兩個都有共識會支持司法院提出的法警的人力員額的增加還有職等的提高希望司法院回去能夠盡速的提出相關的修正法案好 謝謝接下來我們請徐宇珍委員發言"},{"start":8092.381,"end":8100.349,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請司法院高金正秘書長以及我們的檢察司張司長好 請秘書長跟張司長"},{"start":8108.877,"end":8137.135,"text":"MU長還有市長好我想今天我們排這個專報專題報告最主要就是針對在台中地議院所發生的這個律師被這個女子這個國長的這個事件那當然這個部分我在剛剛在你們的報告裡面你們有提到說其實你們有做了一些教育訓練包括你在7月起就有事前預警高風險通報還有警力盤點跟教育訓練"},{"start":8138.416,"end":8151.506,"text":"但是同時間你們也自己檢討說事實上是因為自己法源不足執法遲疑還有因為警力不足的關係所以還有法官的訴訟只會過於保守"},{"start":8153.627,"end":8172.502,"text":"但是呢同樣的這個法務部對於高風險案件的分流退庭跟安全陪同還有這個機關的區內現行暴力的處置其實寫得很詳細就是刑事訴訟法第88條的現行犯的規定法警的依法逮捕那所以我想請教一下秘書長針對這個"},{"start":8174.924,"end":8193.144,"text":"刑事處分法第88條是問何人都可以進行逮捕所以說當時為什麼我們在這個司法院的在台中地院的這個法警卻沒有用這樣的方式而是用隔離的方式呢這個我剛剛有一支報告其實真的是我們這位法警真的是"},{"start":8195.006,"end":8221.049,"text":"他自己對於這個其實我必須跟委員報告有時候法警他們很害怕說我一個強制的行為是不是造成更大的騷擾只要這個念頭在他腦子裡面他就沒有勇敢的去不能說勇敢就沒有很盡職的去達成現行犯是任何人可以進行逮捕的這個法治觀念"},{"start":8221.169,"end":8234.954,"text":"不過這個已經不是言語了這直接有行動了這個應該對 應該是現行犯的這個標準應該就已經是已經落實那為什麼對 就罰警做這樣的表示說可能平常的教育訓練對"},{"start":8236.394,"end":8251.378,"text":"是不夠的我必須承認可能我們對於他應該什麼時候不能講什麼時候你應該把這種現行犯應該要進行逮捕的這種要把它變成一個DNA因為你這樣才有辦法維持"},{"start":8251.678,"end":8276.31,"text":"那請問一下你剛剛有提到說是因為法警遲疑他認為可能造成更大的騷擾那請問一下那當法警做這樣遲疑的時候他有沒有可以譬如說請示上級機關或是請示法官或是相關的人員可以請示有有有其實可以的這一件事件我必須講真的是整個都法警都遲疑其實他們後面還有四個法警真的還有四個法警"},{"start":8276.55,"end":8295.262,"text":"所以總共有五個罰警結果都沒有人認為應該要當庭逮捕所以我們要深自檢討所以表示說我覺得這個相關的啦就是針對這個部分的教育訓練因為其實我們剛剛我想秘書長都一直有提到現在的罰警是人力不足可是依當天的這個案件好像也不是人力不足"},{"start":8295.722,"end":8314.8,"text":"沒有人力不足的問題只要這樣講一個女子在現場然後有五個法警在現場所以絕對不會是人力不足的問題所以這個可能我覺得是我們的教育訓練出了很大的問題那尤其是剛剛講到說這個要積極修正這個法院組織法因為覺得法源不是那麼的明確"},{"start":8316.101,"end":8330.886,"text":"那請問一下到底是哪裡你覺得法源不夠明確呢其實像關於現行犯這根本不用法處法的法源法警你在維護法院秩序的時候我可能要檢查"},{"start":8332.632,"end":8356.755,"text":"像我們其實我們現在進門的檢查那個法源是稍微有點灰色地帶還有在法庭裡面我要禁止行為如果那個審判長他是忙著他的開庭而沒有注意到旁邊沒有指示法警是不能動的可是有些事情在光在法庭裡面其實可以事先制止"},{"start":8357.555,"end":8377.59,"text":"罰警沒辦法那再罰這個當然秘書長我想你們有相關的SOP但是以這一次的案件來說顯然是都沒有落實所以這也就是招委為什麼今天會排這個專報所以這個部分的話我想秘書長可能要回去要好好的來去研究相關的我們的教育訓練的如何落實"},{"start":8378.991,"end":8394.008,"text":"未來真正在面臨這樣的狀況的時候我們要怎麼樣去做因為其實有法源但是我覺得是在怎麼判斷方面出了問題所以邀請秘書長針對這個部分因為這邊台中地院就是所謂的首要任務迅速隔離"},{"start":8395.47,"end":8417.034,"text":"就是事實上他既然都隔離了那為什麼不能做現情況的逮捕那還是說司法院其實是法警是不能這樣子有要求法警不能做這樣的作為嗎絕對沒有絕對沒有絕對沒有嘛不過因為這次這個行為事實上是沒有落實事實上是蠻離譜的啦所以說大家會有這樣的一個狀況那"},{"start":8420.255,"end":8431.088,"text":"剛剛您也提到就是說人力不足的問題那請問司法院這邊有沒有針對人力不足的問題有提出什麼樣子的一個具體方案如何解決當然除了"},{"start":8432.949,"end":8460.527,"text":"這個願意讓我們增援是最好在沒有增援之前我們會把法警的職務強度比較高的一定是在法警身上強度比較弱的單純的維持一條線的秩序我們就會放在保全來協助就分散一下法警的工作量可是我必須報告還是不夠因為我們民庭"},{"start":8462.642,"end":8483.861,"text":"就是沒有法警所以說具體的 我想這個人力要怎麼改善的方案也希望你們有個具體的報告然後送到立法院送到我們司法法治委員會讓我們能夠了解那剛剛昭偉也特別提到了就是針對這部分我們也會非常的支持只要是有必要但重點是法警"},{"start":8484.341,"end":8509.14,"text":"如何訓練讓他們真正能夠執行他們的勤務我覺得那個才是重點人力就像當天有五個警力在那五個法警在那邊可是卻沒有辦法執行這樣的行為所以說未來請問一下如果再有這樣的狀況發生的話那他們是可以這個還是一樣只要迅速隔離還是可以依法控制現場代理人員然後移交警方呢"},{"start":8510.031,"end":8522.796,"text":"如果是現行犯本來就是可以當場再送行方本來就可以了我覺得這個部分可能就是麻煩要具體的落實那當然我這邊還想請教張司長一些問題就是針對我們這個經貿辦的顏富新副總談判代表的這個英言早逝那他因為有一個請辭他的請辭書裡面有很清楚的寫到他對CPTPP推動消極敷衍缺乏具體的計畫跟時程深感憂慮"},{"start":8538.982,"end":8561.701,"text":"他多次的提出建言卻沒有被採納甚至提出遭到嚴厲的駁斥那針對這個部分其實現在大家一些媒體都指出應該是有相關的霸凌的事情產生那請問這個部分檢察官可不可以因為我們知道有相關的情勢可以主動展開調查呢"},{"start":8564.475,"end":8593.334,"text":"跟委員報告那檢察官是知有犯罪嫌疑才會來做主動偵查那一般的這個霸凌的情形到底是什麼樣程度那通常在機關內會先做一個霸凌是否有霸凌事件的一個調查之後那如果其中有涉及到犯罪嫌疑的話機關就會向檢察機關因為其實我看你們之前有很多的案件其實都是看媒體有介入之後你們就主動介入偵辦因為這個符合這個知有其他情事有犯罪嫌疑者"},{"start":8593.814,"end":8613.697,"text":"所以就是說還是要看那個他媒體不管是媒體或者是說相關的人員他所揭露的一些霸凌的行為是不是已經達到有犯罪嫌疑的一個程度那才會由檢查機關來做一個偵辦那所以如果有這樣犯罪嫌疑程度你們就會積極的這個介入偵辦如果有犯罪嫌疑的話"},{"start":8614.198,"end":8636.168,"text":"那目前的話因為現在這個案子還在調查當中嘛所以說我們也可以看到他也提到就是說他多次的建言遭到這個嚴厲的駁斥所以說如果主管沒有知道問題存在卻長期不處理是不是已經這個涉及公務員這個廢持職務代乎職守的犯罪嫌疑呢那這個部分檢察官是比較差"},{"start":8637.428,"end":8661.73,"text":"公務員廢食植物的罪責其實是相當重的那跟霸凌之間的一個關係這個可能還是要看具體的個案來做一個判斷那這個案子就是說這個部分是不是有到達廢食植物的情形可能也是要先因為以這個案子的話就是說我們可以看到就是說這個我們顏慧欣當然現在我們有很多的資訊出來就是"},{"start":8663.792,"end":8685.885,"text":"他其實也針對這個部分他其實在身心各方面其實都已經受到很大的一個煎熬所以他才會提出辭呈那裡面也都特別講出可是我們可以看到他提出辭呈的前一個月那還是呢這個就是這個我們的經貿辦還是要讓他獨立去面對所有立委的質詢所以這個針對這個"},{"start":8687.546,"end":8705.422,"text":"霸凌的疑雲那是不是有可能導致他最後離職是因為這樣的原因那所以這個部分我們還是希望說這個我們的這個檢查機關還是要針對這個部分能夠主動的調查不要等到說到最後就是官官相護到最後就不了了之"},{"start":8706.804,"end":8731.412,"text":"跟委員報告因為本案依照媒體所揭露的大概已經在進行內部的行政調查那如果相關的調查結果出來假設裡面有犯罪嫌疑的話檢察官也會來做我們希望這樣的事情不要再發生在我們的所有的官員身上 謝謝好 謝謝許委員我先做一下程序的宣告"},{"start":8733.7,"end":8761.362,"text":"等會在李坤誠委員詢答完畢之後我們就休息五分鐘好然後呢接下來我們就先請范委員發言好有請我們司法院高秘書長跟法務部的張司長好有請高秘書長跟張司長"},{"start":8768.552,"end":8781.567,"text":"兩位好今天要跟兩位請教關於就是遭起訴或判刑的醫師懲戒法務部跟司法院能不能協助衛福部借資料不知道兩位"},{"start":8783.629,"end":8783.91,"text":"你看這個照片中"},{"start":8807.167,"end":8831.763,"text":"我這邊有出奇的就是有三位女性她們是藥廠的業務事實上這位醫師至少性侵跟性猥褻的至少六位女性在酒中下迷藥醒來的時候她們已經在旅館中全身赤裸這麼嚴重的事情當時一直有非常多的問題"},{"start":8832.503,"end":8859.77,"text":"那不只是這件你可以看到中間這個2024同樣是台大的名醫那有六位就是包含政壇大樓的媳婦還有台大的女醫師控訴他們被性騷擾然後在最右邊又是台大醫院性侵性騷案那後來一審判刑三年而且這都是有非常多受害者的"},{"start":8860.51,"end":8880.179,"text":"我要講的事情是這件事情之後其實我們有質詢衛福部衛福部一直表達說他們同意民眾有資格權利所以要有一個所謂的狼醫平台可是我們看到這件事情其實還沒有結束剛剛會上新聞可能他們因為是台大的醫生這裡才今年2月上個月"},{"start":8884.401,"end":8901.493,"text":"新北也出現婦科的狼醫那他居然藏兒少性影像而且包含病患的私密照而且外流的時間長達九年後來被求重刑兩年兩個月以上我想請問"},{"start":8903.001,"end":8916.966,"text":"高秘書長如果您是病患或是病患家屬應該覺得有權利要知道我們可以上網查一下就是我的家人要去看的醫師是不是狼醫吧民眾有權知道吧"},{"start":8918.479,"end":8945.832,"text":"可以簡單答嗎當然我們希望民眾有權知道可是重點是說你個資方面要怎麼去衛福部就這個部分個資方面他到底要怎麼去完整的呈現你的個資是說狼醫的個資要保護嗎判刑確定的其實是會牽涉到不是只有狼醫各種犯罪"},{"start":8946.532,"end":8971.075,"text":"我現在講的就是醫生就是說如果他是一般人我們並沒有要處理我現在講的是性侵性騷病患的這種狼醫判刑確定後那如果判刑確定是有判決的那我們判決裡面對於被告姓名是不會的我現在不是講被告我的狼醫平台是說民眾能不能夠"},{"start":8972.296,"end":8986.847,"text":"被告當然要保護吧我現在問你是狼醫對狼醫是被告他的姓名一定出現的一定要不能保護他嗎他不能這樣民眾他如果後來繼續職業或者是借了別人的什麼就是說我們應該要讓民眾有知的權利嘛"},{"start":8989.149,"end":9008.33,"text":"就我們法院這邊的判決來講背後的名字是公佈的我現在問的是那個性侵的狼醫判刑確定之後衛福部要做狼醫平台您同意民眾有權去查我要看的這個婦產科醫師有沒有在那個平台上嗎"},{"start":9009.031,"end":9031.409,"text":"有沒有記錄嗎我不能夠替衛福部回答你不用替衛福部回答你從一個公民的角度 民眾有沒有權利知道我當然希望我知道啊好 先讓你知道嘛那我現在告訴你問題在哪裡就是民眾民團跟你一樣覺得應該要公開資訊我們有權利不被狼醫看診我們的家人有權利不要去狼醫嗎"},{"start":9033.431,"end":9055.343,"text":"現在衛福部依照醫師法應該要就是說它有兩個部分一個是地方的衛生局就要啟動懲戒然後可以把它停業、廢照、廢證等我們看得出來衛福部畫出了依照衛福的做法我們辦公室畫出了這個流程看起來很完美事件發生"},{"start":9056.724,"end":9085.297,"text":"行政調查或者是司法程序行人調查就是譬如說台大的醫師他是台大的教授台大自己就可以調查就是那理論上調查確定就要啟動懲戒司法程序確定也要啟動懲戒那司法程序確定那個狼醫專區就是資訊專區衛福部已經做出來了有很大的新聞告訴大家可是呢你如果去看這個部分的話你會發現"},{"start":9087.098,"end":9101.072,"text":"這裡面關於司法程序的兩條線是有問題的因為衛福部的專區裡面他們告訴我們他們僅能夠就新聞有報導的找出有公開的判決書"},{"start":9102.313,"end":9119.707,"text":"如果今天不是台大名醫可能某個地方的醫生沒有人告訴他們媒體沒有報導諮詢專區就沒有欸那那個高秘書長你覺得這會不會是個問題難道只有上新聞的狼醫民眾有權利知道嗎"},{"start":9120.947,"end":9147.626,"text":"如果就民眾來講當然希望全部都知道當然希望所以從民眾的角度如果是你家人你也希望都知道那我們現在看一下這個是我的辦公室把衛福部弄的狼醫平台這位西醫師你看他的受害者就是相關的醫事人員然後就有這麼多人這邊圈起來的是有判決書的因為衛福部的人找得到的"},{"start":9148.466,"end":9173.358,"text":"然後呢沒有圈起來的就沒有判決書而且也還沒有懲戒因為相關的資訊是不完整的那這是不是一個問題我們跟衛福部為了這件事情溝通衛福部表示正在和司法院溝通資訊借接因為剛剛也只有2023年後的資料因為他們無法取得請問司法院"},{"start":9174.258,"end":9197.604,"text":"你們可不可以協助啊這個衛福部好像覺得很為難因為司法院很大跟你們溝通很困難既然您作為秘書長都同意民眾有知的權利我現在講的不是一般人講的是跟病患有不對等權利關係會接觸到很多人的醫師所以不要跟我說這個太麻煩增加你們負擔"},{"start":9199.685,"end":9225.506,"text":"其實我們都有做你們都有做所以是衛福部講錯了所謂資訊借接這句話我不太了解他的意思可是我們判決如果跟衣食有關的都會送給各地方都有送政府的衛生局都有送衛生局那些衛生局說他們都沒有收到現在是哪方面出問題"},{"start":9227.007,"end":9239.701,"text":"那至於他們要不要公開 那我就沒辦法替他們發言好 就是說我現在並不知道是誰推給誰那比較重要是 既然你說都有做那也可以一起送給衛福部吧"},{"start":9241.067,"end":9256.052,"text":"可不可以加一個衛福部如果你說都有送地方衛生局可以啊 如果是我們單送衛福部也可以可以啊 就可以再送給他們而且我們現在也在進行他們所謂的直接借借平台而不是用判決去傳送的這個事項"},{"start":9259.793,"end":9276.573,"text":"好那反正我現在得到你看監察院都就是說有調查報告那過去光是勞動局北市勞動局就沒有告訴衛生局不過當然那個是另外一個問題所以現在我想講的事情是因為衛生主管機關"},{"start":9277.634,"end":9302.029,"text":"他們給我的答覆是說他們只能知道從新聞上知道的看起來司法院沒有跟他們借街好那我們認為不能夠像這個案子就是非台大醫院的其他地方的部長說盡速從嚴處理可是也是因為這個事情上新聞所以部長才會被問那我想既然您都已經提到了你們的借街"},{"start":9303.786,"end":9331.269,"text":"那個高秘書長有承諾會告知我們在109年就已經看建立相關刑案資訊借接系統那他們現在是希望能夠更好撈取我們也正在做精進的109年更好撈取109年就把資訊送給他們你說送他們是衛福部嗎衛福部啊還有台北各地方政府的衛生局所以你是給他整批資料叫他自己去撈"},{"start":9332.33,"end":9347.271,"text":"沒有沒有沒有判決一份一份判決都要送出去啊那他們為什麼會有撈取的問題我的意思是說他們現在要更精進的是希望打這個ID就可以在這個網路裡面直接這個"},{"start":9350.095,"end":9363.73,"text":"能夠什麼挑出來可是這牽涉到因為我們是給資本嘛那我們將來怎麼用電子檔去建立資料庫然後能夠方便的選出來這是他們現在希望要的對"},{"start":9364.551,"end":9384.747,"text":"那我想細節的部分我現在沒辦法釐清到底衛福部講的問題是不是你已經解決的不管怎麼樣那法務部跟司法院這邊可不可以承諾我跟衛福部再次研商如何在醫師起訴跟判決後確實達成資訊流通與借接以確保我們民眾就醫安全這個秘書長您剛講起來聽起來是很願意的可以承諾嗎再開一次會好不好"},{"start":9394.894,"end":9413.046,"text":"是跟衛福部開會嗎跟衛福部我們現在刑事廳都跟他們積極的因為他們給我的不是這樣好不好那法務部也可以吧應該有相關的部分法務部也可以跟委員報告如果那個衛福部他有提出這個要求的話那法務部都會配合跟他們協商看要怎麼樣的一個資訊"},{"start":9413.786,"end":9443.064,"text":"因為我跟衛福部問他就是說好像這個進度是在跟你們借街中就是聽起來有剛講這是這兩天我們才上網查的裡面很多判決書是空的嘛因為只能到什麼2023年之後就之前就沒有好那這樣子可以在開示會會議記錄可以給本席一份跟我們司法法治委員嗎好那相關的報告除了會議記錄之外也給我一份報告好嗎"},{"start":9443.904,"end":9451.306,"text":"好那謝謝好好一起加油啊好謝謝范雲委員那接下來我們有請李坤城委員發言謝謝主席那我們請司法院的高秘書長那還有這個法務部的張市長好秘書長張市長有請"},{"start":9479.146,"end":9484.731,"text":"秘書長好 市長好我想今天的專報題目跟三月份發生的"},{"start":9485.799,"end":9505.945,"text":"台中的這個律師公會理事長在這個法院裡面被掌裹的這個事件有關係可是我看了這個司法院的報告其實你們在114年7月其實就有這個強化安全的這個措施有事前預警高風險通報的SOP警力盤點跟訓練包含這個罰警的訓練課程等等這個114年就已經有開始這個未雨綢繆結果"},{"start":9514.187,"end":9540.127,"text":"三月份還發生這種事情所以到底是落實的不夠徹底還是相關的法規還要再做修改如果就單純這個事件是落實的不夠徹底那哪些方面落實的不夠徹底就是第一個他事先其實知道資訊可是你在事先預防其實我們都有說有給他們事先預防的方法一定要隔絕其實當天如果隔絕就不會有事情發生"},{"start":9541.328,"end":9552.853,"text":"現場沒有隔絕這是第一個再過來就罰警在執行職務的時候過於遲疑其實這個就現行犯嘛就是逮捕嘛他就是遲疑了對 罰警訓練也不夠必須說對於他這個警覺意識的訓練"},{"start":9558.735,"end":9568.561,"text":"還是我們現在給他的一些法令讓他在執行勤務的時候不是不是我覺得就是因為有時候可能會讓法警認為說我只要把大家維持好安安靜靜就好了這種觀念是不是太強了而讓他以為說法警不是當核四老法警是要執行公權利嘛對不對"},{"start":9580.169,"end":9595.286,"text":"所以現行犯就是應該要抓起來這個部分我們真的是深深檢討中我想說這個114年你們就有相關的規定出來了沒有落實所以這個包含本席在內我們有提出這個律師法的修法"},{"start":9595.826,"end":9617.041,"text":"那律師法的修法其實是參照這個醫療法的修法啦那我們希望說這個增訂不得已非法的方法 妨害律師執行業務然後刻以刑責啦 那而且對法院地檢署及其他執行職務的場所採取必要的安全防護措施 那我想請教一下這一個我們秘書長或是我們司長對於這一個律師法的修法你們的態度咧"},{"start":9617.421,"end":9642.057,"text":"我們樂觀其成因為律師他在執行業務上我必須說啦其實律師是為被告辯護那被告的行為有時候可能會讓社會群眾反感那就會把這個恨氣放到律師身上所以律師是應該被保護的我們非常贊成"},{"start":9643.1,"end":9671.205,"text":"那 再請教一下就是說 少年事件處理法那現在 因為它要修法的部分很多那我現在就只針對這個塗銷制度來請教一下這個秘書長那 現在的少年事件處理法你只要執行完畢 刑事案件紀錄一律自動除消嘛 對不對那我們現在呢這個司法院有這個修正法它就是說 你有三年的觀察期三年觀察期就是說你有期間內再犯罪一律不准塗銷"},{"start":9672.305,"end":9686.984,"text":"但是呢 如果期間內未犯的話呢 一律徒消前科啦你們就是單純用時間啦 用時間來做一個評量標準但是呢 包含這個民進黨 我們有立委包含民間團體有提案 就是說"},{"start":9687.685,"end":9713.491,"text":"用這個時間來講的話這個其實你也沒有分這個大概是輕罪還是重罪那是不是應該我們要分這個輕罪跟重罪如果它是這個是屬於重大刑案的話我們改採就是禁止自動塗銷改採這個動態註記的方式就是我們至少分輕罪跟重罪嘛那不是說時間一到你也不管他之前犯的是輕罪還是重罪我一律塗銷"},{"start":9714.673,"end":9733.382,"text":"是其實我們前面提出來版本是沒有因應到最近割喉案所發生其實社會對於肇事法這個老不是講蠻舊的法這個要求我們現在已經在對於要把它層級化分成五級五級對那有說"},{"start":9736.083,"end":9759.703,"text":"確定塗銷 有一年塗銷 有三年塗銷 五年塗銷 跟七年塗銷看他的再犯的罪值 來做一個階層式比較符合比例原則可是你們還是按照年嘛 那我剛意思是說 是不是按照說他之前犯的罪他犯的罪如果是屬於重罪的話 不是說我一年到了 三年到了 五年到了 然後就把他塗銷掉這樣子"},{"start":9759.983,"end":9764.673,"text":"我讓我們那個細節我請我們稍事聽中廳長回答可以嗎"},{"start":9767.546,"end":9792.717,"text":"是 委員好剛剛委員的槌詢確實是我們這個觀察期是一個條件之一另外我們會加上他再犯的一個犯罪值的輕重去審查基本上這個年限只是一個條件之一而已如果重罪他所犯都是五年以上的那麼這種"},{"start":9794.317,"end":9819.799,"text":"又再換那這個時候要看他再換的最值我們在這七年的觀察期會有不一樣的一個審查條件我們會設計好那可是這個是你們送來版本沒有的嘛對不對對即將要再送進來即將要再送進來是是好不好那這個那會後再把資料再給我一下好了好不好因為現在民間團體也很重視這件事情就是說之前你們就連線"},{"start":9821.261,"end":9835.953,"text":"靜態你沒有去區分說到底是輕罪還是重罪那說再犯的這個可能性是怎麼樣那我覺得要用動態的方式來做處理啦我覺得對於被害者來講這個會比較就是說站在他們立場來考慮這件事情啦好不好好 謝謝"},{"start":9838.477,"end":9857.931,"text":"好 謝謝李委員那麼有關於這個對於防害律師執行職務的相關處罰以及科與刑責的部分現在民進黨委員以及包含本席在內我們其實都有提了相關的修法那麼當然也很希望法務部還有司法院能夠支持那我也會在近期之內有機會的話就會來排"},{"start":9860.699,"end":9868.68,"text":"這個法案來主導審查那麼如果說法務部這邊也有提案的話也請可以儘速提出好 謝謝那我們中間休息五分鐘"},{"start":10187.216,"end":10204.365,"text":"好 我們現在繼續開會 那麼接下來有請洪孟楷委員謝謝主席謝謝 麻煩請那個司法院秘書長好 請高秘書長好 秘書長"},{"start":10211.496,"end":10235.163,"text":"我想我們今天感謝周偉排這個專報那最主要也是因為看到三月中的這一個法院律師受到攻擊的一個事件但這個應該不會是一個個案啦我覺得我們應該要整體的檢討是說到底我們現在在各法院開這個開庭的時候有沒有這種治安或說秩序沒有辦法維持的一個狀況也因此我想要講的是說"},{"start":10236.55,"end":10263.544,"text":"就是從2018年其實也有調查新竹地院的人犯逃脫事件當時也有看到是三名法警輪值而造成說沒有加派戒護而有這個狀況那可不可以現在比較明確的讓我們知道過去一年或過去三年裡面到底我們在法院上面有多少這樣子的一個不管是攻擊事件 攜帶違紀品或者是說妨礙法庭秩序的一個狀況"},{"start":10264.704,"end":10284.11,"text":"我們有沒有做相關的統計有 其實各法院都會有相關資料只是我手邊一下子沒辦法告訴委員說總共大概會有幾件因為我們比較難理解的是說法院照理講它就是一個最公家機關而且它是一個這個執法機關那在這裡面都沒有辦法維持秩序可是另外一點"},{"start":10285.951,"end":10297.257,"text":"換過頭來講 您剛剛也有提到委員諮詢也有講 畢竟是兩兆雙方都在那邊所以說可能難免情緒的一個部分所以現在到底哪一些法院的這個妨礙法庭秩序的狀況是比較嚴重的"},{"start":10299.202,"end":10317.715,"text":"我相信各法院防害法庭秩序應該都不會很嚴重只是說我們不容許有一件法庭這是最重要剛剛委員提到戴偉晉平出入法院其實是很多所以我們第一線法警在門口是非常落實在檢查這個偉晉平的吸入"},{"start":10318.979,"end":10339.565,"text":"是所以那這樣子是不是能夠給本席一個相關資料好不好就是說過去一年或過去三年裡面我們這個違禁的行為是違禁的行為或是危害秩序的行為這邊有一個統計是好來那再來本席也想要跟您就討論一下就是說因為在法院上面這個是另外本席在"},{"start":10340.645,"end":10362.08,"text":"聽到很多的陳情這也是過去到現在很多團體要求的就是說在法院上面其實在被害者的角色就加害者他當然他就是坐在這個然後這個檢察官跟他來做一個審理但被害者不管是被害者或被害者家屬其實他都沒有一個固定的座位甚至說被害者或被害者家屬沒有辦法去做一個"},{"start":10363.001,"end":10384.891,"text":"案件的一個陳述可能最後法官要判決的時候會請被害者或被害者家屬來講述一下意見但實際上他都已經走完整個這個程序了好那我們現在也有人講是說是不是應該要針對這個部分來修法我想請教一下秘書長您的看法呢關於這個刑事訴訟法關於被害人參與的部分"},{"start":10386.332,"end":10400.929,"text":"其实很多人不管律师不管是法律学者也都有相关的建议我想这已经不是第一次了但是本席因为我们也正式提出了案件也有很多的委员共同的参与联署也因此我今天特别利用这个机会来就教一下秘书长"},{"start":10401.249,"end":10424.3,"text":"是其實在這個刑事訴訟法裡面是有規定在科刑程序前就像委員所說的一定要讓這個被害人參與但現在唯一就是剛剛委員也提到我們在法組法上面關於被害人在法庭的席位我們是沒有規定所以我們這次也要把它列入讓被害人他們有個"},{"start":10426.118,"end":10441.344,"text":"不是有席位不是專用席位被害人的專用席位是就被害人的專屬位就說不是說他跟著這個旁聽席坐在那邊不是旁聽席他是會坐在那個"},{"start":10446.505,"end":10473.625,"text":"我們是沒有把他列出一個專用席可是會請他跟檢察官坐在一起如果他到庭的話會請他坐在因為那邊剛好有空位他就請他坐我們是沒有一個名牌的專用席這樣子而已南邊部長我想確認一下是現行就已經這樣做了還是說你們預計要做這樣的修法"},{"start":10478.988,"end":10495.995,"text":"各個法官請秘書長可以把麥克風靠近一點這個細節可不可以請我們私行聽來 檢要說明一下沒有問題 檢要說明一下跟委員報告其實就是因為法院組織法授權司法院應該訂立一個法院的席位的佈置規則"},{"start":10497.055,"end":10513.719,"text":"那確實我們現在在法庭的以刑事法庭為例他會有設一個區域是給刑事的被害人跟告訴人做的那我們當時盡量是把他安排在比較接近這個檢察官的位置就是不是接近被告的那一端"},{"start":10514.099,"end":10531.232,"text":"那剛剛秘書長說的確實沒錯就是因為有時候被害人比較多的時候那那個席位可能會不太夠所以就會稍微往旁邊做一些但是基本上我們還是法官的訴訟指揮還是會盡量讓被害人跟被告這邊會有區隔那秘書長"},{"start":10531.972,"end":10546.638,"text":"既然我們已經有往這個方向來邁進了那本席也講是說那就是不是能夠有法治化或說更明確的一個規範那以及就是說在這個案件的審理過程當中被害人或是被害人家屬的意見表達其實也是相關重要"},{"start":10547.338,"end":10575.175,"text":"因為來你麥克風可以按開沒關係沒問題其實刑事訴訟法已經規定了法官在訴訟指揮上面本來就是要讓這個被害人要去陳述意見但我們現在看到很多的實際的狀況會是到最後已經都審理完畢法官可能再給被害人或是被害人家屬一個說明的機會但這個時候也許早已經有自由心證也許早已經判決就已經差不多了"},{"start":10576.617,"end":10595.63,"text":"所以我想是說這個部分就會變成是說到底他的重要性跟他的一個位置意見表達的時候到哪裡其實這也是很多的被害者有很多的一些民間團體他們一直在陳情的狀況我想現在其實在柯行陳述的時候應該會有可能他對於被害影響陳述這個區塊我們如果說"},{"start":10599.833,"end":10614.88,"text":"各界還是質疑法官在審判程序上是不是給這些被害人更多的陳述機會我們會在教育上再次提醒其實法規是有的"},{"start":10615.881,"end":10630.863,"text":"我們會再次的來提醒法官所以我想秘書長其實你回答蠻正向的就是說也認為是說應該要參照如果一個案件裡面被害者最直接的他的意見其實表達也算是重要"},{"start":10631.383,"end":10654.811,"text":"所以未來本席如果說我們提出相關修法的時候我們會進一步就教那針對這部分我們也希望司法院是一個比較開放的態度能夠往我們審理更好的公平正業方向來邁進那最後一點我只簡單提醒一下因為也是很多的陳情跟抱怨是說我們現在書記官的人數確實不足尤其是現在新收案2022年357萬件這全國法"},{"start":10658.652,"end":10672.902,"text":"法院到2025年也許會突破425萬件但是書記官的報導率只有50%左右而且全國缺額超過400人哪一個法院缺額最多"},{"start":10674.332,"end":10691.379,"text":"我們前三名是應該是就是沒有報到最多那就是北三院就案件量也最大最大的然後可能案件的複雜性也最高然後可能他的相關的這個內容也最繁瑣然後他的"},{"start":10692.572,"end":10712.499,"text":"缺席率就是沒有報道率最高那我們要怎麼樣因為這已經不是冰凍三尺非一日之寒這不是第一次的問題那其實司法法治委員會幾乎每個會期都會有委員提醒但到目前為止感覺缺口是越來越大是跟委員首先當然要謝謝這個趙偉還有我們委員會"},{"start":10717.24,"end":10734.011,"text":"支持我們讓書記官的專業佳績提高了到六千多塊雖然不多 也是用感覺可是跟委員報告其實以書記官現在的業務量跟早期的他的工作量來講其實我個人認為一股的法官應該有兩個書記官因為我們一個是書面處理"},{"start":10739.674,"end":10758.531,"text":"卷證是書面處理一個是電腦處理其實就是兩份工作其實這也是為什麼書記官會不來報到是最大的原因他等於是一個人做兩份工作那再過來那當然後續是一樣工作可是就是兩份工作那我們還有"},{"start":10760.513,"end":10776.104,"text":"薪水很低 職等很低其實書記官剛進來4萬塊那如果一進來就是這麼恐怖的工作的話所以我們常常會有第二天報到完第二天就不來了是 本次也看到 董事長當然您的"},{"start":10778.625,"end":10794.604,"text":"第一線同仁的委屈我們都理解但是您是衛秘書長這不能變成是抱怨大會所以我現在本席提出來是說能夠協助我們都來願意來協助但重點是第一源額的問題嘛第二是待遇的問題那待遇司法法治委員會已經有協助加這個津貼了"},{"start":10796.246,"end":10817.441,"text":"好 那我們現在要問的是原額問題有沒有計畫來去爭取以及怎麼解決這才是我們想要看到的這也是才能讓第一線的書記官放心是說真的司法院有在動作好 公委員報告原額部分我們是一直在爭取一直被拒絕被誰拒絕人總啊人總 那人總上面是誰"},{"start":10824.451,"end":10848.803,"text":"不是 這很心酸啊對啊 就這樣啊 可是我們真的是那另外 老實說啦 求人還是要求己來 那這樣子 我說實在話每年五院不是我們新春開春的時候總統都召集五院院長查序嗎除了立法行政院長有去的時候我們司法院院長他去的時候也應該跟總統反映一下"},{"start":10849.563,"end":10874.26,"text":"我們希望 對我們會努力 真的我很持平的講是因為我們也有很多同的這種法律相關的這一些科系的從業人員或是書記官的朋友那確實第一線的辛苦如同您剛剛講的您剛剛講都算保守你說兩份工作你說這一些行政都需要"},{"start":10875.08,"end":10889.546,"text":"我們現在要看的是中華民國政府是一體的要拿出辦法而不是你推我我推你那到最後不然就是請召委我們再排一次請任總跟司法院一起來然後兩項對質另外還有一個總緣額法其實這邊如果突破人數的話就突破"},{"start":10891.107,"end":10904.922,"text":"那是不是能夠提出來我覺得這個本來就是司法院本來就是行政院本來也可以提的我們一起來努力但重點在於是說不要我們這個變成是我們變成是一個考古題變成是一個這個"},{"start":10907.32,"end":10933.907,"text":"這樣講比較抱歉啦就是會期題啦月經題會期題就變成是每一次會期開始之後我們就就一直又問這個問題但本席為什麼今天還特別感謝趙偉多給我一些時間但本席為什麼多提出來就是因為如果再不動作的話缺口只會越來越大那您剛剛也已經講到了書記官現在的工作根本就是兩人工作那一股只有一個書記官的話那根本做不來根本的問題連我們自己的子女可能都不想讓他去當書記官"},{"start":10934.707,"end":10945.177,"text":"跟委員報告 中研合法我們不是主管機關那也是要溝通啊 也是要突破啊對啊 我們就要突破 對 我們一定是溝通突破"},{"start":10946.007,"end":10974.595,"text":"本席今天點出這個問題我希望看到司法院積極的態度不管是跟其他行政部門的溝通積極態度我們這邊立法院一定會幫忙推一把但重點是司法院要積極的態度因為你們身為主管機關就應該要來為第一線的書記官發聲好不好我一定會再繼續追這個議題我們一起努力 謝謝好 謝謝秘書長 謝謝好 那麼接下來我們請徐巧欣委員發言"},{"start":10984.651,"end":10989.422,"text":"謝謝主席那我們一樣是請這個司法院高秘書長好請高秘書長"},{"start":10994.316,"end":11020.593,"text":"欸 秘書長好我一樣跟這個孟愷委員一樣要關心就是某一位這個地院的這個書記官所謂全數陣亡意思就是呢新到任的書記官待不滿一年的這個事情喔那我想你們已經非常了解了可是呢可以看一下就是很多的這個書記官呢他們講說說老實話我希望呢事情鬧得越大越好法院與檢察署的書記官工作越來越繁雜繁重"},{"start":11022.234,"end":11041.704,"text":"這種管考卻沒有減少同事呢每天加班做到八點還做不完為了接小孩只好趕五點下班再去加五六個小時的班幾乎沒有什麼時間陪孩子司法院的長官如果再不重視這個問題呢那就司法體系乾脆就是崩潰雖然他們很期待這一天"},{"start":11042.404,"end":11059.41,"text":"我講這個事情是剛才講說人不夠但是你也提到了就是要自立自強這個無論如何能夠處理的內部處理的要處理像這樣子的情況就是我們的書記官他的工作繁重到"},{"start":11061.19,"end":11086.746,"text":"送完小孩還要回來週末再加五六個小時的班以及各種管考沒有減少這是不是在我們管理上面也可以做一些改變讓流財這件事情變得有可能跟委員報告就是因為如果人員能夠到期一切就是因為人員沒辦法到期其實我們各法院都很努力把書記官的工作後續"},{"start":11087.867,"end":11113.425,"text":"比較那個束縛型的工作能夠有這個委外人力來協助讓書記官的工作就完全在前階段的法庭筆錄跟前階段的卷證處理這個是我們希望讓書記官工作能夠切一塊出去讓他減少另外一個我們努力的是我們當然書記官我們要讓他不要無心加班"},{"start":11114.065,"end":11141.912,"text":"所以我們也在提高他的加班費然後另外我們也是運用我們可以用的這個二等數據官三等升二等二等升一等的原額的配套讓數據官能夠看到明天好 那您剛剛講的是一回事可是我們在實際上面遇到另外一個狀況是您剛剛一直強調說希望人能夠增加但是在原本的原額上面那大家都一直在走"},{"start":11142.392,"end":11162.429,"text":"那就是另外的管理问题了那就是另外的问题我们来看一下这个数据从112年到114年书记官原额以及到离职的人数调查表无论台北或新北的地院离职的人数都多于到职的人数我们看112年这个数据我们一个一个来看"},{"start":11163.95,"end":11184.333,"text":"112年的時候呢這個道指21人這個台北帝院離職20人然後呢新北帝院112年道指24人離職28人也就是說你今天所謂的人數不只是說你想說人總給你的元額不夠多就算給你的元額多了離職的人還是比道指的人多啊"},{"start":11184.753,"end":11191.156,"text":"113年一模一樣台北地院倒值28離職28新北地院倒值25離職28114年這個更誇張倒值的台北地院倒值50人離職52人114年倒值59離職56所以連續的三年112 113 114你原額在那個地方但是你倒值的人數跟離職的人數"},{"start":11213.525,"end":11218.31,"text":"相減之後 要嘛等於零甚至是複數的情況那想要請問一下 你們有沒有了解為什麼從112到114會有這樣的情況發生以及檢討要怎麼做能夠讓道指跟禮指的人數不要進來的人跟出去的人一樣甚至超過呢"},{"start":11232.405,"end":11247.38,"text":"跟委員報告 當然我必須要說 第一個是薪資薪資真的是你跟外部的工作量來比較 留不住他第二個 為什麼倒置他馬上離開 因為我一進來就是兩份工作 我看了我就走"},{"start":11248.061,"end":11263.764,"text":"那我們現在要努力的就是說讓他的兩份工作中間的有一份工作能夠讓其他的委外人員來處理這是我們最努力的方向讓他進來覺得說我就是只有一份工作我才會留職"},{"start":11264.905,"end":11279.859,"text":"這個是我們最努力的方向另外一個要讓他看到明天我們希望加薪 加班費 加職等這個我們能夠用的全力都是在用這個方面115年有信心做到"},{"start":11281.428,"end":11301.609,"text":"反轉嗎沒有信心那我們再看一下您剛剛講的這個加班的事情加班絕對不是只要提高加班費大家就願意加班沒有人是願意的應該是我原本的工作到哪裡我就做到哪裡加班那是叫做例外而例外是本來該給加班費"},{"start":11302.97,"end":11323.164,"text":"所以就算你把加班費調高如果你的工作沒有讓他在一個合理的範圍裡面就算有加班費人家也不一定願意做這個工作來看一下新北地院的工作時數我把台北跟新北的都拉出來給你看喔你可以特地看我時間有限我們看新北地院的就好新北地院的加班時數從112年的39小時到114年變成了44小時"},{"start":11328.968,"end":11342.379,"text":"在114年的12月平均喔來到53小時所以我的意思是說你們現在一直告訴我說你們要調整你們要讓大家的工作的loading變小可是也從數據上看來並不是這樣子啊從數據上來看是增加的耶你看"},{"start":11346.782,"end":11349.604,"text":"從台北地院112年一路到114年從本來30等等的一直平均開始到42114年幾乎台北地院都40幾欸 114年12月新北地院到53個小時欸這個簡直就是過勞的情況嘛"},{"start":11364.571,"end":11378.642,"text":"所以我的意思是說你們如果長時間有關心這些書記官他們的加班時數狀況你們有盡可能去掌握的話那不是說提高加班費是你要盡可能去降低大家的加班時數的問題請問最後這一點要怎麼樣的去改善"},{"start":11383.665,"end":11402.534,"text":"就跟委員剛剛報告其實我們從114年就開始要把書記官一部分工作移給委外人員那這一段其實從114年什麼時候開始要做這件事的我們114年最早在我高本院院長任內我們二月就開始做二月開始那顯然成效度高啊"},{"start":11403.434,"end":11423.52,"text":"沒有啊 我們高本院我想 我現在要推行到各地院你們要去落實這一件 另外 老實說啦案件量太大 即使切一半出去 老實說為什麼加班這麼多同樣的法官加班也這麼多 除非我們要把法官受案量減少"},{"start":11424.68,"end":11441.503,"text":"如果法官收案量不減少書記官永遠是這樣是沒有錯啦但是你弄到最後都沒有書記官了那也是那也是一樣啊那你都沒有書記官了那你一樣你這個庭怎麼開呢所以無論如何我知道面對這樣的一個挑戰你們是辛苦的"},{"start":11441.983,"end":11454.47,"text":"但是你問題還是得解決的你問題一天沒有解決你讓大家到職離職每年到職離職的人數是一樣的然後那你說希望人總在開多少圈你們那有用嗎你開了這麼多圈到職的人然後又離職的人然後到職減離職等於零那跟沒有是一樣的嘛"},{"start":11459.693,"end":11472.642,"text":"所以這以上幾個重點要請你們一定要去理清今天非常多的委員都在關心這件事情那希望這個文明市長可以再多去想想還有沒有其他的辦法能夠再做調整謝謝謝謝許曉欣委員的發言好那接下來我們再請林楚英委員林楚英委員林楚英委員不在"},{"start":11485.796,"end":11501.672,"text":"好的那麼今天所有登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢然後詢答結束那麼委員質詢的時候所要求提供相關資料或是已書面答覆者就請相關機關盡速送交個別委員以及本會好"},{"start":11503.789,"end":11528.848,"text":"那麼委員蔡奇昌吳宗憲所提的書面質詢就列入記錄刊登公報並且請相關機關以書面答覆好的那麼我們今天的會議就到此結束然後也辛苦了這個高明署長今天算是第一次來我們司法委員會然後接受備詢那麼也謝謝您好那我們就今天的會議到此結束現在散會謝謝大家謝謝大家辛苦了"}]}},{"id":"17310","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17310","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/7a505bc1fba11f2d84a0a9d3ab318e79913e19dfee376f063e07a0549bf20b519796a9fc50ca624b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2026-03-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期外交及國防委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告「國軍年度軍事投資計畫與財政負擔能力之動態平衡評估」，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2026-03-30","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2026-03-30T08:34:58+08:00","end_time":"2026-03-30T12:21:00+08:00","duration":13562,"影片長度":"03:46:02","委員發言時間":"08:34:58 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宣讀完畢我們現在介紹在場委員以及與會的官員首先介紹陳永康陳委員國防部顧立雄顧部長"},{"start":1660.563,"end":1663.944,"text":"副參謀總長執行官黃志偉黃上將朝務次長楊基榮楊長次全民防衛動員署廖建新廖署長總督察長是盧建忠總督察長石文龍石參事政務辦公室孫立芳孫主任"},{"start":1688.806,"end":1713.806,"text":"政治作战局胡瑞迅胡副局长军备局林文祥林局长主计局谢祺贤谢局长军医局陈元浩陈局长战略规划司黄文祺黄司长资源规划司蓝静婷蓝司长"},{"start":1715.814,"end":1744.414,"text":"法律事務司吳義聖吳司長整合評估司苗慧芬苗司長國防採購司趙雅萍趙主任人事參謀次長是侯嘉倫侯次長情報參謀次長是謝日昇謝次長作戰及計劃參謀次長是連志威連次長後勤參謀次長是李鳳翔李次長"},{"start":1746.718,"end":1758.926,"text":"通信電子資訊參謀次長是謝俊山謝次長訓練參謀次長是郭俊德郭次長陸軍司令部陳建義參謀長海軍司令部邱俊榮參謀長空軍司令部李慶然參謀長後備指揮部薛淵權參謀長"},{"start":1774.179,"end":1800.125,"text":"憲兵指揮部文念忠參謀長入軍後勤指揮部梁永坤梁參謀長資通電軍指揮部周文祥周參謀長軍事情報局李永康李執行長電訊發展室林振維林執行長國防大學教育長李承忠李教育長"},{"start":1802.077,"end":1822.52,"text":"國家中山科學研究院副院長羅益中羅副院長補充介紹陳俊宇委員請問在場委員對於上次會議事錄有遺漏錯誤或需要更正之處沒有 我們議事錄確定"},{"start":1826.806,"end":1833.732,"text":"本日會議邀請國防部長顧立雄報告國軍年度軍事投資計畫與財政負擔能力之動態平衡評估並被質詢現在請顧部長上台報告"},{"start":1855.019,"end":1876.167,"text":"主席、各位委員先進今日應邀向大院貴友委員會就國軍年度軍事投資計畫與財政負擔能力之動態評估實施專案報告感謝各位委員對各項國防施政推動的側面與支持面對印太區域安全情勢劇烈變動"},{"start":1878.328,"end":1896.468,"text":"及中共對我軍事威脅日趨嚴峻,強化國防有其必要與急迫性國軍軍事投資計畫細菌整備的評估,並依循行政院中層施政計畫作為未來財力需求的依據除每年的公務預算外,也會視當前"},{"start":1898.632,"end":1919.976,"text":"急迫性戰備時需,循預算法第83條,遍列特別預算。國安部本與中央政府行政一體理念,在積極妥慎規劃國安政策之際,基於兼顧政府施政與財政前提下,尋求橫貧。見請大院長點力支持"},{"start":1920.854,"end":1930.684,"text":"接續由主席局局長謝啟賢中將就今天的專報主題延期與現況實施報告,進行各位委員不吝指教,謝謝"},{"start":1933.76,"end":1955.357,"text":"就等一下的報告我想今天的報告有書面的資料我們請各委員可能參照我們的書面報告那另外我們今天會定這個題目很重要的一個因素是因為我們對於軍事投資計畫尤其在近期我們因應周邊區域局勢的變化我們希望"},{"start":1956.138,"end":1969.029,"text":"如何在這個部分跟我們整體的財政負擔的這個能力希望可以有動態平衡的評估專報所以除了主計單位以外非常重要的還有站規師還有整評師然後還有"},{"start":1973.228,"end":1996.618,"text":"相關的單位可是我們今天看到的報告內容第一他應該在規定的期限是禮拜五就要提出來可是我們到禮拜天的中午11點才拿到這一份報告第二我們需要的這些詳細的這個規劃因為我們都說我們做了非常多的縝密的規劃所以如果這個沒有辦法提出來"},{"start":1997.298,"end":2011.049,"text":"今天提出來的講的還是可能我們的特別預算或者在相關的預算這樣是以偏概全所以我們還會另外安排時間再次安排專報那今天就請主計局長請回我們等一下就開始進行"},{"start":2021.915,"end":2036.783,"text":"現在開始詢答本會委員8加2分鐘非本會委員5分鐘10點30分截止發言登記如果有臨時提案請於10點30分前提出11點左右處理現在請陳俊宇委員上台質詢好謝謝趙偉有請顧部長請顧部長"},{"start":2056.263,"end":2082.139,"text":"部長早上禮拜我們針對國防特別條例進行了三天密集的審查各黨的委員都提出了寶貴的意見來作為交流國防部也盡可能就可公開的部分進行了說明但比較遺憾的是我們全案幾乎是沒有辦法達成共識法案現在進入一個月的協商冷凍期"},{"start":2083.18,"end":2103.379,"text":"那條例和預算什麼時候能夠通過都還是未知數但是我們國防建軍是有系統性和完整性的一個規劃即便我們授權國防部先行簽署是向個案的這個發架書那也是代表程序往前進行了一步那今天我想再就其中兩個議題來和部長您相加"},{"start":2108.163,"end":2127.694,"text":"討論那也請您說明他其中的一個急迫性首先我們這幾天最關心的還是我們所面臨的這個發家書危機其中最關鍵的這個海馬仕多館火箭系統他的這個首期款支付期限原本是明天3月31就到期了那"},{"start":2129.212,"end":2156.521,"text":"美方恐怕也很難給我們延期支付的一個彈性所以首先在我們雙方密切的這個協調之下昨天晚上傳出美方同意讓我們展延的這個消息但現在這個條例和預算案都還沒有通過一旦錯過了這個窗口我們在程序成本甚至在產線排序上可能都還是會受到一定的影響"},{"start":2158.382,"end":2174.841,"text":"有關海馬市首期款支付的一個問題,美方是什麼依據給我們例外處理?實際上我們可以爭取到多久的時間?跟委員報告,美方這一次是最後同意引用那個"},{"start":2178.172,"end":2197.006,"text":"安全援助管理所冊裡面有關緊急生效的條款緊急生效?對,他同意引用緊急生效條款,然後展延至美方跟合約商預約之後我們大概可以爭取到多久的時間?"},{"start":2199.725,"end":2224.773,"text":"現在要看他跟合約商預約的一個狀況那現在只能夠預估啦,預估應該可以到五月下旬五月下旬,好那目前這個展延支付所期款的這個做法是否能夠確保我們在交裝期間還有購置成本乃至於後續的這個訓練排程上不會受到影響"},{"start":2226.4,"end":2250.552,"text":"現在另外有一個重點,就是因為美商一月之後的五天之內我們就要付這個日子是比較緊的,也就是說美方跟他的合約商一月之後五天內就要付款我們是在推估這個日期,剛剛講的五月下旬所以手機款如果不能夠獲付的話,那當然就會影響到那個"},{"start":2251.921,"end":2263.026,"text":"整個我們的排成因為我們相關的這些排成如果能夠納入到我們整個"},{"start":2264.901,"end":2294.201,"text":"整個跟因為現在全球都譬如說以海馬斯為例這個全球目前都有在遞送這個需求那我們要納入首批的採購的序列那我們如果能夠落入納入首批的採購序列的話那近期有美方統一項合約上預約的話那就會儘早啟動這個產線的生產那越早預約當然越早交貨好那也請我們國防部"},{"start":2294.921,"end":2312.004,"text":"能夠掌握這個相關的期程那後續條例通過之後的預算審查審議可能還需要一段的時間那國防部是否能夠確保一旦預算順利通過後能夠加速撥款的程序表示我們對此案的一個重視"},{"start":2313.607,"end":2329.945,"text":"我們要因為要能夠撥付款項要預算能夠通過預算如果不能夠通過可能在戶口上就會有問題"},{"start":2333.142,"end":2347.288,"text":"現在是條例案嘛條例案通過以後我們要送預算案進來那當然就希望預算案能夠儘速通過等預算通過了好那其他三項已經簽署發價書的這個購案包括這個自走炮還有脫勢飛彈標槍飛彈並沒有獲得這個展演"},{"start":2351.149,"end":2378.568,"text":"那什麼時候會遇到這個相同的問題我們有沒有這個先預期我們現在已經同意那個授權簽署所以現在簽署的部分沒有什麼太大的問題那接下來當然就是也看跟美方爭取是不是一併能夠在那個合約上預約之後再來付首期款這樣子好"},{"start":2380.356,"end":2395.93,"text":"那假使我們未來遇到重要的軍售案件預算通過之前美方無法同意給我們展延的狀況那我們國防部和行政院是否有嚴理支付款項避免這個預約時間延宕的一個做法我們有一個"},{"start":2406.302,"end":2432.578,"text":"幾個可能,如果真的不行,第一個就是說如果特別條例能夠通過那我們就提預算進來,那如果預算案還沒有過但我們是不是能夠獲得一個等於說依照獲得授權在預算法的84條,讓我們能夠先行支付這可能是一個方法,就是說條例通過但預算案還沒有過"},{"start":2433.88,"end":2447.62,"text":"讓我們同意讓我們先行支付,這是第一個第二個當然如果要重用到第一、二預備金的話這可能現在有一個問題,因為我們一百一十五年的總預算"},{"start":2449.572,"end":2462.502,"text":"還沒有互為審查所以依照預算法的54條在總預算沒有審查通過的情況之下沒有辦法動之第一、二預備金所以還是要等預算通過"},{"start":2468.03,"end":2483.483,"text":"就這個特別預算的部分有一個方法當然就是條例通過預算案馬上會送進來預算案送進來的時候預算還沒有通過的情況之下是不是可以同意我們動資先行動資一部分這樣子"},{"start":2484.904,"end":2497.919,"text":"那這樣就比較不會延誤到所以當然我們還是希望預算案能夠盡早通過那預算案如果沒有通過我們就條例通過以後提出預算案的時候就請求能夠先行動之這樣好"},{"start":2500.061,"end":2514.341,"text":"另外我想跟部長您討論在院版條文當中有一款是強化作戰持續量能相關的裝備說明當中包括有寫到防範共軍海空封鎖切斷補給"},{"start":2515.763,"end":2531.325,"text":"快速提高各式戰備的存量以及我們興建各式軍備產線等等這也結合到我們先前討論的這個暫時很有可能遭遇到航道封鎖或是陷入長期消耗戰的這種情境當中"},{"start":2531.986,"end":2559.599,"text":"那我們必須在國防自主的這個量能上有一定的韌性來應對這部分我想請教部長如果我們沒辦法透過特別預算一次性的來提高我們本土軍備的這個產量和存量那必須改以年度公務預算分年來籌建那實際上會有多少多大的一個這個差距跟委員報告主要就是說"},{"start":2561.226,"end":2589.205,"text":"我們這次會把它編入特別預算來一次性的投資建制武器裝備彈藥跟火災原料還有滑射藥的這個14條生產線來能夠擴大生產的能量主要就是因為我們如果按照我們現在我們上次有報告按照深湖基金來編列那一年只有4億這個要幾十年才能夠要符合才能夠我們現在要建設14條產線的規模"},{"start":2590.926,"end":2606.945,"text":"那另外一個方法當然就是說我們用這個年度預算來編列那年度預算我們在今天的報告裡面事實上也有提到就是說在我們的持續案裡面我們未來三年的"},{"start":2610.388,"end":2633.669,"text":"預估這個需求案大概是五千七百億就是說持續案總共一百六十三我們大概列舉了幾些重要的案件那如果就這個未來三年要付五千七百億那一年平均下來是一千九那我們以一百一十五年為例我們的軍頭的預算是一六"},{"start":2635.711,"end":2650.461,"text":"那可以納尾新增案是84那84案裡面我們又有很多新增案是還沒有沒有把它納入特別預算的那就是用年度預算那這些年度預算有"},{"start":2651.461,"end":2667.554,"text":"把他納入了這些相關的新增的案項,那個部分就要700那沒有含,這是沒有含我剛剛提到那些就是我們要一次來籌措特別預算來建的各式的生產線,14條的生產線的話那這樣子勢必會排擠到這個生產線的建制的這個我們的急迫性那"},{"start":2676.701,"end":2691.037,"text":"那如果又把它擺入年度預算,那除非我們的國防預算要大幅的增加,那這個大幅增加今年的比例已經到達百分之十八了,一百一十五年度嘛"},{"start":2691.838,"end":2704.131,"text":"雖然還沒有審議,但是已經到18%所以在年度預算這樣子,我們一方面又有新增的軍事投資那如果再把整個彈藥的14條生產線擺入的話,我想這空間會幾乎是沒有"},{"start":2711.659,"end":2730.5,"text":"謝謝部長您的回答,我們國防安全不應該是有冷凍期,尤其行政院在去年11月底就提出特別條例,美方也在去年12月中就知會他們的國會,我們在3月初才付為審查。"},{"start":2731.741,"end":2745.667,"text":"那即便已經先授權簽署四項的這個發價書程序上仍然就和時間在賽跑那這部分我也請我們國防部在協商期間持續和在野黨和社會大眾來做溝通希望能夠讓這個"},{"start":2747.848,"end":2764.604,"text":"特別條例還有預算審查的程序 競速的推進也確保後續內容能夠通過的完整性讓我們強化這個防任性的相關規劃都能夠包含在內以建構我們可以嚇阻共軍所需的相關戰力"},{"start":2765.825,"end":2790.277,"text":"這邊也特別因為剛剛委員問到這一個彈藥的部分因為台美雙方有不斷在討論這些事情的時候我們一直要落實這個實戰化的訓練我們實戰化訓練結果實彈射擊的訓練的品質跟數量不斷增加那我們也要提高我們的戰備存量因為這美方我想我們台美雙方都一再認為我們可能會面臨一些"},{"start":2793.959,"end":2814.295,"text":"我們道義國家面臨一些封鎖的環境之下我們一定要不斷提升我們的戰備的一個存量另外就是暫時會有高消耗所以這些都是希望能夠把它編入我想這個都是大家根據作戰的需求做一個整體的規劃就這個部分也要請"},{"start":2816.697,"end":2821.601,"text":"所有委員部分草原都能夠予以支持好 謝謝謝謝部長好 謝謝我們接下來請羅美玲委員上台質詢謝謝主席 我請顧部長顧部長"},{"start":2846.966,"end":2863.562,"text":"是 羅委員部長早 部長全國人民所關注的這個海馬式多管火箭系統的這個首期款的展演那昨天終於是傳來的這個好消息那我想國防部應該是盡了很大的努力所以美方呢終於呢同意要來展演了"},{"start":2864.182,"end":2887.737,"text":"那當然剛剛我有聽這個陳俊宇有提到其實除了海馬仕之外其實還有我們的M109A7這艘炮啦還有標槍跟這個托式飛彈等等其實這些也是在這個月底呢其實都是要來支付這個首期款其實就是在明天了嘛就是在明天嘛發價入簽署之後那現在如果都以"},{"start":2888.317,"end":2913.882,"text":"引用這個緊急條款的話那現在都如果能夠都展現到跟美國跟廠商一約之後我們就還有還有一個時間對目前我們所知道就是只有海馬市呢就是剛剛部長你有提就是引用這個安全援助手冊的緊急生效然後可以延到這個五月下旬可是其他的到目前為止因為明天其實也要來做這個支付手續卡的最後"},{"start":2915.002,"end":2934.553,"text":"我們也跟他一起商量有商量其實有通過嗎?他有答應嗎?後面這三項我們在協商這一次emergency case implementation的時候美方表示另外幾個必須要等到他們處理完之後才會跟我們做討論"},{"start":2936.047,"end":2962.202,"text":"所以您是意思說目前他只同意的是只有海馬市只有海馬市對 像其他的這M109A7自走炮等等這些到目前為止都還沒有訊息嘛 是不是對 但是他還沒有說要在3月30號以前付款啦就這個部分的管項我們跟他簽署以後我們現在還在跟他商量所以看看是不是還在跟他商量 就這三項的話其實在月底還沒有說押在押在月底要付這樣"},{"start":2962.822,"end":2981.593,"text":"OK那如果是說這個我們的國防特別條例沒過然後預算案沒過後續呢會影響到的這個軍購的這個進度到底會影響到還有哪些項目啊請問除了我們現在所知道的目前這些之外還有沒有其他的項目會受到影響"},{"start":2983.5,"end":2988.142,"text":"您是說軍購的部分嗎?軍購的部分現在公佈的我們拿到四項的發價數現在還有一項是Artists的700"},{"start":2995.68,"end":3020.579,"text":"IM跟RTX600的ISR那這個部分還沒有拿到拔價書拿到拔價書之後我們當然還是希望授權我們簽署授權我們簽署以後關於首期款的部分我們也是再跟他商量總共大概跟委員報告一下大概整個現在這個應該是四個案"},{"start":3021.701,"end":3029.098,"text":"四個案加起來大概是需要七千九百多萬的美金大概是有幾款"},{"start":3031.645,"end":3055.315,"text":"這四個案要七千九百萬美金的稅我們計算結果差不多是七千九百二十幾萬我在請教部長剛剛部長有提到說我們舉海馬仕好了目前的話大概會讓我們會延到這個五月底如果到那個時候條例沒過預算沒過美方還會再讓我們一再延嗎有可能嗎"},{"start":3056.275,"end":3074.157,"text":"如果沒有辦法延的話,到時候會有什麼樣的後果?這個部分就要跟委員會比較困難他如果已經跟這個他的合約上預約了之後那這個基本上完成預約以後,因為為了要有相關的備料啦相關的這些初期準備"},{"start":3075.018,"end":3095.059,"text":"那這個部分可能展現的可能性就不高那所以我們大概預估他大概完整在五月下旬所以我剛剛有提到就是說如果能夠通過特別條例那我們送進預算之後雖然預算還沒有過即使預算還沒有過我們那樣是不是能夠授權我們先行支付這個部分的款項這樣"},{"start":3096.761,"end":3114.461,"text":"可是這還是不確定性嘛對不對是我們希望希望能夠先行支付可是到時在審查的時候是不是又有一些意見那還有款源的部分就是說因為有七千九百多萬差不多合二十五億台幣的這個"},{"start":3116.536,"end":3141.407,"text":"款項 那這個款源要從哪裡來 這可能我們也要思考一下是 所以這都是一個蠻複雜的這個工程我也希望說在野黨能夠了解國防部的這個難處就算說我們現在展演到五月底可是如果五月底以前我們國防特別條例沒有順利通過的話其實受的影響是非常大的因為美方不可能讓你再次的這個展演"},{"start":3143.348,"end":3156.592,"text":"好那在上個禮拜的時候呢我們花了三天的時間來審查國防特別條例其實那時候呢我有看到是在野黨的他刪除了很多的這個項目他說其實這些其實可以編列到這個公務預算裡面比如說我看到就是說我們的防空反彈道這些全部都沒有了然後還有這個AI跟這個C5"},{"start":3166.975,"end":3184.601,"text":"ISR系統也全部被刪掉了所以該部長其實在回答陳俊宇委員的時候其實說得很清楚我們的這個公務預算其實空間並不大那說實在我這邊有做了一個圖像這個國防部115年最初編列了5614億那5614億是分配到人員維持軍事投資跟作業維持"},{"start":3192.964,"end":3220.825,"text":"像人員維持的話我們比114年度那最初的預算是增列了192億那其實包含了114年度核定的調增的各項軍職人員加急喔在聯黨口口聲聲說要照顧這個軍職人員可是到目前為止已經214天了這個預算案到目前為止都還沒有審議所以這些都是被卡住的那再來還有作業維持我們編了100"},{"start":3222.847,"end":3226.949,"text":"1990億其實就是為了要因應這個敵情的威脅陣列這個彈藥跟零附件的這個籌補等等而且是比去年增加了514億那再來就是提到這個軍事投資的部長剛剛有說是我們編列了1616億其實黃文綺中將在上個禮拜一直在強調這個東西一直在強調這個東西"},{"start":3248.479,"end":3266.087,"text":"那我們除了配合軍購案付款期程我們建立了232億之內之外呢其中我們扣除優先支應已經簽約的持續案1532億之後呢其實我們真的只剩下84億那84億如何去承載我們這個國防特別條例裡面這些在野黨認為應該要編列到這個國防預算國防這個"},{"start":3274.151,"end":3292.383,"text":"一般的公務預算裡面真的是做不到你只是讓這個整個這個我們建軍準備的這個時程整個是延後了所以這個部分我剛剛也有聽部長再提為什麼沒有辦法列入這個一般的公務"},{"start":3293.123,"end":3303.215,"text":"公務預算裡面那再來我們要提到的就是說好那在3月中的時候我們其實我們二讀通過了這個718億的這個總預算可是這718億的總預算裡面根本不含一毛錢是跟國防預算有關係的"},{"start":3311.485,"end":3330.187,"text":"所以等於就是說國防特別條例卡住了然後這個呢總於上也卡住了根本是沒有辦法動美其名就說好我們已經送到委員會來做審議實際上我們很清楚在野黨東挑西剪說實在的"},{"start":3330.948,"end":3355.032,"text":"整個國防的這個軍事投資目前是完全是看不到一毛錢這個部分的話我在想國防部應該也要很清楚的讓國人知道那甚至我們最近有接到一些支持者他們就說其實上個禮拜三天的這個國防特別條例的這個審議很多人都在看直播"},{"start":3355.572,"end":3374.732,"text":"很多人都看直播他說看了這個三天都很清楚都很清楚為什麼我們需要國防特別條例可是再也打好奇怪他們到現在還是認為說這個部分國防特別條例你這個部分可以挪到這個一般的公務預算連一般的民眾幾乎都"},{"start":3375.773,"end":3395.411,"text":"經過三天都很清楚到底怎麼一回事可是我們就覺得很奇怪在野黨一直都不是很清楚到底怎麼回事為什麼我們要國防特別預算我們為什麼沒有辦法編到這個一般的公務預算清清楚楚已經講了三天了那我今天呢我也把它把這個稍微做了一個整理這次的跟在野黨"},{"start":3397.093,"end":3413.566,"text":"的委員這邊呢再拜託因為時間真的非常的緊迫國家是我們自己的我們投資國防其實就是投資和平這是一個大家都都有的這個觀念全世界"},{"start":3414.266,"end":3422.791,"text":"都在增加這個國防預算唯有我國的在野黨用盡所有的力氣來東挑西撿故意拖延造成這個整個的這個建軍整備的這個過程其實是整個是延宕的其實全民都在看"},{"start":3435.178,"end":3459.383,"text":"好 國防部真的是非常的辛苦 三個禮拜用盡了 講到沒出聲講到已經 我看黃文綺中將的這個講到整個很沮喪都沒有辦法讓在野黨了解的這個狀況說實在的全民都在看啦大家都覺得說真的不需要這樣子 台灣只有一個好 以上謝謝謝偉"},{"start":3463.327,"end":3466.408,"text":"謝謝 接下來請陳永康委員上台質詢主席有請顧部長請顧部長"},{"start":3486.571,"end":3509.924,"text":"部長早安是陳委員長剛才主席講昨天中午才收到我們部裡的報告實際上部內的修正版是下午3點58分才到所以我們也不得不配合部裡的同仁把內部的資料重新再做了一點修正剛才部長提到了就是海馬斯這個確實是對我們國家是很重要的但在2026年"},{"start":3512.345,"end":3535.456,"text":"在这个国际上对美国采购海马斯的国家只有一个就是瑞典那么数量不大那请教一下我们的海马斯的下单呢如果是美方对这个制造厂商谈我们是单独单一国家采购还是美方会考虑未来还有其他国家合并采购因为这里面有一个时间的弹性"},{"start":3541.119,"end":3547.786,"text":"我們海馬仕的這個案子目前跟安和局在協調的時候他們告訴我們是我們還跟其他六個國家一起預約"},{"start":3553.319,"end":3576.248,"text":"所以說是跟其他六個國家一起預約嘛那在這裡面也就是說預算是有一個彈性的空間那因為是共同預約所以很多的就是研發成本是要分攤的嘛是不是這樣子那同樣就是結案要一起結案並不會單獨交完以後我們的預算就是付的款就可以直接結案的"},{"start":3578.068,"end":3602.234,"text":"報員您知道我們雖然是一起預約但是它的生產是依照它的各批去分配它的額度也就是我們經常知道的Lock 1,Lock 2,Lock 3這個序列去做那我們的部分當然也跟過去的軍購案一樣是在我們的交易完了之後沒有任何衍生的法律問題以及財務問題的時候做結案的動作"},{"start":3605.26,"end":3627.237,"text":"我們希望能夠掌握這個因為過去監察院曾經在這上面因為看到我們雖然是裝備交運完了那個尾款還有結餘但是因為跟美方的溝通過程中間其他國家還沒有結案所以那個錢還不能夠從我們在美國的帳戶回到我們國內這個希望我們也能夠跟監察院這部分做溝通"},{"start":3627.977,"end":3645.219,"text":"這個部分跟委員做了說明,我們在109年的建案作業規定裡面,針對結案的條件的這個部分,我們已經跟在先前就已經跟審計部達成一個基礎共識,就是我們在最後一批只要不是遇到法律問題的"},{"start":3646.4,"end":3661.378,"text":"那我們會要求美方在最後一批的時候把錢一併匯回那如果是遇到法律問題的時候則依照美方法律問題處理的方式來界定後續的時間但是這個案子就會在那個時候做一個現況結案"},{"start":3662.942,"end":3684.476,"text":"很好我们肯定我们对美方的沟通因为过去在审计监察中间常常把这个认为是我们国家就是我方要单一承担责任其实这个是涉及到美国内部这个管制的管理的方法下面这张图片我们是对整个我们军事投资计划与财政负担能力的评估那还是前提一下"},{"start":3685.529,"end":3713.116,"text":"这个编列特别预算一次性统筹建立战力那么115年的国防预算到达GDP的3.32百分比我们的预算需求的本质是建立韧性及不对称战力那么十年建军武林兵整过去在这个贵部的说明中间也讲得很清楚那我们希望在而后聚焦就是给我们一点弹性的时间并不仅止于一直强调LOA"},{"start":3714.156,"end":3738.804,"text":"其实如果我们在军总提出这个构想经过国防部的同意报到行政院获得肯定也就是说LOR for PNA或者是LOA这个过程的时间将来可以纳入让我们立法院的同仁了解这是一个弹性的时间而不是等到最后看到美方国会通过LOA签署这个时候拨款付款的时间非常短"},{"start":3739.324,"end":3767.318,"text":"那下面这个我就不做下面因为昨天下午这个部内才送来的这个资料就是我们讲到后续公务预算全售其零件维持费我们看到一个有潜在的风险这个我下去后会跟这个组织局长做一个沟通在这边我们不做延迟上说明或解读的认差这个年度预算维持被压缩会产生什么结果"},{"start":3768.098,"end":3782.194,"text":"那么现有装备的战备水准有没有直接影响到或是后续后勤整个的料配件一次发现短缺的现象那么降低年度预算弹性跟规划的品质"},{"start":3783.055,"end":3798.122,"text":"延後壓縮新裝備後來因為我們的裝備一定有個重疊期並不是新裝備一到舊的就太足所以在新舊裝備重疊過程不只是人員轉換訓練轉換料配件的消耗會比較大像這個"},{"start":3800.285,"end":3814.835,"text":"M1A2坦克车到了但是Oshkosh的拖车平板拖车还没到那将来还有一些料配件这个都我们关注希望支持让陆军能够在这个接装训练的过程中能够顺利完成立刻提升战备"},{"start":3815.655,"end":3837.993,"text":"那下面这个呢就是我们如何解除潜在风险我们是列出了一些这个都是需要大家进一步的讨论我相信啊我们在野的同仁啊跟主计局也好在站规室也好我们欢迎啊我们大家一起啊共同做一点沟通我们也希望在这个政党协商过程中间能够把一些认知"},{"start":3838.996,"end":3852.359,"text":"有解释落差或者是贵单位还有地方可以强化把时间压缩这个空间我们大家一起努力我现在把这个时间留给这个组织局长您做一点回复是"},{"start":3854.181,"end":3873.467,"text":"委員好 感謝委員的指導有關國防財力資源的從我們爭取到後面的運用我們會盡可能的讓它發揮最大的效益剛剛委員特別提到說包含作業維持費與軍事投資到底它要怎麼樣的一個比例其實我們最近幾年"},{"start":3874.167,"end":3894.92,"text":"不管是在作業維持費不管在軍事投資我們都有一些的成長我們在編列的時候也會特別考慮到作業維持費它的預算需求也不能被壓縮所以我們在軍事投資新增建案的同時我們會去檢討汰除一些舊的裝備我們把這些額度能夠釋放出來加上我們新增建案也會併案去檢討"},{"start":3896.181,"end":3911.956,"text":"兩年期的備份料件所以整體的從軍頭案的建案到最維持費的一個預算的編列我們都會整體去做一個考量我們感謝委員指導我們下去後會跟委員來共同來討論看如何來把它做得更好謝謝委員好謝謝 鮑部長您有沒有指導"},{"start":3913.553,"end":3933.372,"text":"剛剛委員有提到,我了解沒有錯,委員也是認為如果說等到發價書來的話,因為相關簽署跟付款的時間相當的急迫所以我們過去在做預算的時候,我們都是在先前有美方有供售意願的時候,那我們拿到初估報價"},{"start":3935.914,"end":3963.797,"text":"同時我們的相關的建案程序完成之後,我們都是先行送進來那大家都有時間來審議這個案子那這個案子到最後等到美方、智慧國會或者是發價書來的時候,我們預算案已經通過了所以我們預算案通過,我們就簽署發價書、付款,這個都沒有問題那今天遭逢的困境就是我們現在有很多案子發價書來了,但是因為案子還"},{"start":3965.175,"end":3981.466,"text":"還沒有過那我們就會有剛剛所講的這些問題不斷的會浮現我們也了解部內同仁努力跟這個承受的壓力那麼這邊也再次提出建議就是說如果我們提出這個這個所謂的LOR的過程中間"},{"start":3982.287,"end":4004.264,"text":"如果已經獲得共識建議部內同仁先到立法院不一定要真到委員會裡面也就是跟部分的委員先做溝通這樣子我們在橫向溝通的時候大家對部裡面的需求跟限制因素更了解更清晰就是說比較容易內部的協商我想以上提出這個建議好謝謝委好謝謝部長謝謝各位"},{"start":4008.769,"end":4013.113,"text":"好 謝謝接下來請王安祥委員上台質詢主席好 有請顧部長請顧部長也請詹貴司司長 侯司長請詹貴司 黃司長"},{"start":4033.124,"end":4062.364,"text":"部長好 市長早上禮拜我們連續三天在討論這個預算不是預算 是我們這個條例的部分因為我剛好坐在市長對面我也在觀察市長的狀況前幾天媒體大幅報導市長表情的狀況還好啦 昨天晚上看起來是好消息我想我們也透過很多方法跟美方大家透過一些民間的方法告訴他們說我們其實"},{"start":4063.184,"end":4090.326,"text":"不是 再來一檔其實基本上也是贊成軍購的部分我們也事先授權給國防部先去預約基本上我想這個是好消息市長應該是吧 有暫時心情稍微舒緩了一點要掛給我們全力以赴他跟我說他下次在立法院的時候他的姿態管理要關掉"},{"start":4092.266,"end":4097.52,"text":"不過我想大家都一樣都是非常努力地在促成這件事情"},{"start":4098.433,"end":4126.271,"text":"那我想我今天主要基本上因為那天應該是禮拜三的時候我有提到一些我們在做討論那個不管是名稱啦或是裡面具體的內容的部分其實有講到這個飛鴻的部分啦當然有些人是說這個什麼供應鏈啦更進一步不過基本上那天有特別提到大家比較肯設的就是無人機的部分啦那看起來好像我們過去已經買了這個大概市面上大概八家嘛不曉得市長這個數字是不是正確大概現在的狀況"},{"start":4129.052,"end":4145.106,"text":"這軍用的啦現在講的是無人機您是講前面的4000多架對對對 之前的啦 之前的是那我們也很關心現在那個非紅的狀況所以部長或市長可以告訴我們一下有關於過去這個無人機的採購我們現在非紅的程度大概是怎麼樣"},{"start":4147.995,"end":4162.539,"text":"我們飛鴻的原則是一貫的那前面的4700多架從微型一直到幕後型無人機的這個部分那也是要求國內廠商必須以國內自己的技術或是國外可以取得的飛鴻技術來產製這些無人機"},{"start":4165.399,"end":4193.827,"text":"是 因為我們過去都在機關裡面我們過去國安法跟國防長的條例還有我們最近有一個新的自動安全審查辦法去年12月基本上要求都會越來越嚴格我們也受到很多的管制我們接下來可能還會有一些所謂的商購的部分不曉得無人街這個部分我們要怎麼確保這個非紅的狀況尤其大家很多聽過什麼稀產地或者一些基本上的零件的部分是不是可以再跟大家說明一下"},{"start":4200.515,"end":4200.857,"text":"再送給你們"},{"start":4202.864,"end":4230.103,"text":"跟委員說明第一個我們原本是特別預算通過我們要公告的我們就設定了我們的20萬家然後分成疊代的問題我們就分成兩個年度大概115跟116大概要買了四萬八千多家我們已經召開了兩次的說明會尤其在去年11月國內兩三百家都來我們也跟他們說明了我們這個四萬八千多家一定要在台生產在台組裝"},{"start":4231.044,"end":4257.305,"text":"杜絕紅色供應鏈而且我們的無人機是要整機拆驗並且要經過支撤會相關的支通的檢驗我們要杜絕這個紅色供應鏈那這個部分我們一定會落實在地化的生產你這樣說明是不是可以提供我更多一些資料就你們現在預備要我們可以把一些說明會的資料提供給委員辦公室我想大家都非常關心因為那天在講名稱的時候或一些說明的時候我想在座大家都非常非常關心這個問題"},{"start":4259.059,"end":4283.978,"text":"那另外就是我上次其實有特別提到這件事情就是在那個特別預算裡面有提到一些座位費的部分座位費的部分那我們也這個光輝也來跟我做一些說明不過我想這次我們又增購了一些武器我想這個座位費的部分一定會慢慢就會一直來增加那尤其是這次我們新買的一些武器包含這個是I3 海馬斯"},{"start":4286.34,"end":4305.641,"text":"我們當然知道有新的武器基本上它的一些coast model可能都會有一些不一樣的狀況不曉得國安部對這個部分尤其新式採購跟舊的部分有沒有做過這樣的評估我們作為飛行會不會在哪一個年度會達到高峰會影響到我們的一些我們今天主要的議題就是有關於我們的預算的部分財政的部分"},{"start":4306.786,"end":4324.623,"text":"發布委員,作為費是沒有高峰的這個問題作為費只有依照需求我們去籌編那當然像過去這幾年來敵情威脅陡峰的狀況導致我們的油料零件等大幅增加之後我們會適度的去調整我們作為費的預判額度"},{"start":4326.431,"end":4351.448,"text":"那我們在這次特別預算裡面您剛剛問到會不會成為常態基本上我們不希望它成為常態目前我們在這次特別預算裡面編列的兩大重點是我們要快速的提高我們的基本的戰備量尤其是關鍵彈藥的那個部分以及各式系統有必要的部分我們才會在這個地方放進來"},{"start":4352.909,"end":4372.543,"text":"我有看到那個115年的預算裡面這個後勤通知系統大概就編了1500多億嘛580幾億我的意思說未來我們general budget裡面這些部分會不會可能因為我們有新式的這些武器進來會影響到可能會變偷變得會更高或是跟過去會有很明顯的一個差異報告委員這個要看他的武器裝備的性質我們"},{"start":4374.184,"end":4402.334,"text":"目前所有的武器裝備裡面作為耗費最高的是航才就是各式飛機包含直升機之內它佔的比例是最高的那您可以看得到在這一次我們特別預算裡面編列的項目絕大部分是屬於彈藥類或是屬於地面的武器系統的這個部分它的那個佔比以及它的消耗額度就相對的會低很多尤其是彈藥類的部分好"},{"start":4403.325,"end":4426.783,"text":"那我上次的質詢裡面其實有提到了大概一個概念就是我們發現很多的這個文號的字號其實它那個年跟月其實好像有點順序不是非常一致的狀況那很感謝國安部也跟我們做了一些說明不過我對於這個大家看到這個投影片上面就有關於這個像是擴增這個產線的部分這個好像做了一些調整國安部的意思也說好像做了這個產線的一些調整"},{"start":4428.604,"end":4445.513,"text":"不過大家可以看到這個的年份它的月份是在114年12月跟115年的1月大家都知道特別預算送進來的時間是114年11月的時候送進來的我不知道這個狀況到底是怎麼樣是因為有做一些調整其實預算應該會改變吧"},{"start":4449.407,"end":4469.019,"text":"對,包委員我們這個部分在確定這個上限額度之前我們就依照2500億的這個部分數量的部分在平行的部分我們是有做了一些修調所以我們是控管在它的這個範圍之內是在預算內做了一些調整對"},{"start":4470.225,"end":4487.112,"text":"所以結論就是說它的數量或是它的金額可能都不會受到影響就後面調整我們現在已經框了1.25兆了嘛對不對那可是後端這個部分有了一些調整可是不會影響到1.25兆的總預算不會所以增加也不會增加或減少都不會影響"},{"start":4488.888,"end":4504.501,"text":"包委員這個不是增加或減少都不會有影響我剛剛已經講了這是我們在確保財政紀律法的前提之下不讓我們的這整個軍購案造成國家財力太大的負擔所以"},{"start":4505.381,"end":4524.091,"text":"針對那個個案裡面它的數量如果說我們要維持在一定的預算額度的部分我們就會做一個平行的調整比如說A案它目前的迫切性沒有那麼高我們會稍微降低一下它的數量B案如果目前我們認為它可以獲得而且迫切性比較高所以您的調整的是在這一項裡面"},{"start":4525.611,"end":4551.002,"text":"像室內做調整所以包委您看到那個文號必須要看到整個序列因為我們整歸書的部分做任何一點維修條包括裡面的標題甚至某一些文字的修訂我們就會賦予他一個新的文號所以市長我的意思是說我已經接納你們上次跟我說的一些解釋啦我只是說最後這個部分我還是不是非常了解因為最後做的調整我們如果是1.25兆的總"},{"start":4552.723,"end":4573.28,"text":"框了這麼大一塊嘛有些調整我覺得應該會有一些調整沒關係我們再來再來做一些溝通啦那另外就是我們其實還是比較擔心這個所謂軍用衛星啦我們整個通訊的部分啦我不知道因為那天有特別提到這個Link16的部分啦就是有一些戰艦的部分不曉得現在是不是所有我們的戰艦上那個Link16都是OK的"},{"start":4576.786,"end":4603.521,"text":"方委員另一個16是美製系統對所以只適用於美製的裝備是那所以我們這次看到那個伊朗的部分其實他這個通訊的部分有受到一些這個軟性的攻擊不曉得我們現在整個對通訊系統的部分我們這個整個這個韌性的部分是怎麼樣做調整方委員這個部分可能屬於高度敏感機密方便在這邊說明好沒關係我們私下在"},{"start":4604.809,"end":4621.816,"text":"對 LINK-16相關這個部分應該是屬於機密案件我們私下再跟委員做說明好 沒有問題那天有特別提到這個 LINK-22有特別提到這個事情因為美方應該也有做一些Promise"},{"start":4623.466,"end":4640.877,"text":"這個部分我想也私下再跟委員長說那這一次我其實這一次有特別提到啦上次有一些主責廠商的部分啦這一次的那個公告好像沒有特別看到啦那這部分再請跟國防部做一些溝通那感謝好 謝謝委員好 謝謝接下來請林楚英委員上台諮詢"},{"start":4667.756,"end":4672.522,"text":"呃謝謝主席主席有請顧部長呃請顧部長指通電軍指揮部參謀長指通電軍參謀長國防大學呃國防大學教育長好國防大學好"},{"start":4682.168,"end":4704.536,"text":"部長早首先呢我想要先針對一個時事題來請問一下國防部上個禮拜其實有兩個宣判其實是社會關注都跟民眾黨有關一個是他們黨主席的社攤事件另外一個就是民眾黨的徐春英他涉嫌這個共諜案的部分"},{"start":4705.356,"end":4726.906,"text":"那麼其實根據這個案子我想這個柯文哲他的這個有關於是不是社攤這個是他個人誠信跟這個司法的部分但是有關於徐春英這個共諜案我想其實讓國人最感到恐怖的是過去我們都說這個匪諜就在你身邊但是呢好像感覺不出來在哪裡"},{"start":4727.866,"end":4732.27,"text":"現在這樣的共諜的滲透根據起訴書的話徐春英跟這個集資公司的負責人透過我們現在正常的所謂貌似正常的這個商業往來跟交流然後讓一個叫孫憲他本人是這個所謂上海的市委的所謂祖國統一會的副主委也就是說負責統戰"},{"start":4752.805,"end":4780.841,"text":"那麼結論就是徐車英跟這個羅穎集資公司的名義把中國統戰的幹部帶到了台灣來那麼為什麼我會提到這一個是因為呢我上網去查了這個集資公司大家都會認為說他應該只是一個正常交流的公司沒想到他還真的這個資金破風而且接了很多政府的標案而這個標案當中也包含了國防部跟國防大學的兩個標案"},{"start":4782.262,"end":4808.004,"text":"那分別是在2019跟2021年金額不高但是我們看到的是他第一個是國防大學的除聯管理學術研究系統另外一個是國防部的資訊安全防護教育訓練其實當然這兩個案子我看大概都已經執行完畢了但重點就來了在這樣的過程當中這個把"},{"start":4808.624,"end":4835.821,"text":"中共的統戰官員以假商務真滲透的方式帶進來台灣的同時他也標了我們國防部跟國防大學相關的尤其是資安資訊安全非常重要的這樣的一個標案那麼我想請問3月23號宣判到今天剛好一個禮拜這一個禮拜的過程中國防部有沒有"},{"start":4836.681,"end":4852.734,"text":"去了解到這個所謂歧視書上面特別標示的國防部的資安的標案是韋游這一間極致公司那麼有沒有做一個回溯因為我們知道的是像這樣的資安通常它有系統的問題有帳號安全密碼的問題還有就是人員接觸的問題"},{"start":4859.079,"end":4884.444,"text":"既然這間公司都可以用商務的名義讓他以商務交流的名義讓這個叫孫縣的進來之後那麼有沒有啟動清查去回溯這個標案做完了可是過程當中到底這間公司接觸了什麼部長跟委員報告有請這個廣大了解那現在主要"},{"start":4885.906,"end":4901.602,"text":"我了解的事項先跟委員做報告,如果有補充再請他們,主要這是108年的一個97萬5千元的一個案子那他這個是在做那個有關庫儲管理,主要是對那個教職員的服裝教職員的服裝的供補,所以他是在由這個應該是總務處"},{"start":4909.079,"end":4933.384,"text":"在總務處裡面來做,那所以他是在民網的執行系統來做一些開發那沒有跟我們的軍網系統有做連結,那另外就是說他這個案子在因為110年的時候陸海空軍的服裝站成立之後這個國防大學所有的人都是依照他的"},{"start":4934.304,"end":4943.792,"text":"他的軍種就回到各軍種去做那個供補所以他這個有關服裝的這個補給回歸到各軍的服務站去做供應以後這一個這一個軟體本來要掌握這個補給狀況的這一個"},{"start":4950.086,"end":4968.646,"text":"部分就停用了就沒有再用所以目前這個系統是停用的狀態是好我要提醒的就是就像部長您所說的他掌握的是一個補給系統我們知道不論是暫時或平時補給系統非常的重要而另外國防部的這個資訊安全防護教育訓練裡頭那麼"},{"start":4971.208,"end":4997.223,"text":"這一個公司他又負責了哪一個部分因為我要提醒的是必須要啟動回溯系統因為包括他碰到哪些系統哪些資料哪些流程有沒有接觸帳號的權限然後教材內容又是什麼系統的後台還有哪些資料其實他們都可能遇到哪些的介面這個部分有關於國防部這個案子目前有回去回溯嗎知通電軍的這塊是"},{"start":5000.245,"end":5017.965,"text":"找到是110年的一個資訊安全防護教育訓練那他主要是針對網路安全的管理有一個基礎的訓練那老師大部分都是那個微軟公司派遣的一個老師所以他是屬於一種我們對於"},{"start":5019.127,"end":5034.761,"text":"他們應該要取得專業證照的一個培訓那這裡面沒有涉及到我們國軍軍內的一些事務好 但是因為會有出席名單會有來上課的名單所以本席還是這一點跟我很不好想我也有特別有問他們他們有說明說因為這個是當時是"},{"start":5039.085,"end":5042.668,"text":"因為新冠疫情影響所以是遠端授課遠端授課的結果訓練的名冊由中電經自存所以因為這樣所以沒有對外提供所以反而因為COVID的關係所以人員名單沒有外流"},{"start":5054.918,"end":5071.055,"text":"好 那表示國防部跟國防大學有做了一些清查啦那麼我想整體來說部長包括其他的單位我們還是做一個提醒跟提示包括這一間公司未來的合作的狀況建議你們要把它放進黑名單裡面"},{"start":5072.256,"end":5075.938,"text":"因為這個他們確實有時機那我也知道在標的過程當中時機很重要時值的績效啦就經驗所以這個部分就是我做一個提醒另外呢部長我知道今天我們其實重要的是針對有關於我們國防軍事計畫及財務負擔能力的動態平衡評估報告"},{"start":5097.828,"end":5125.425,"text":"其實今天報紙也都講了這一份報告當中有特別點出來的就是在碎書的部分如果把我們的國防特別預算為什麼要用特別的原因就是因為擔心對於社會福利啦年金給付啊健保補助還有教育支出等等造成所謂的排擠效應所以本席包括我們民進黨民進黨團都非常同意放在特別預算喔"},{"start":5125.905,"end":5134.651,"text":"但是剛剛主席也特別提到了說這個因為報告交的晚所以還要再排一次那本席是特別建議啦就是說如果是這樣這個題目的話應該要把財政部還有主計處相關的單位找來因為說實話這個國防部只管國防安全有關於這個"},{"start":5146.059,"end":5172.206,"text":"社會福利預算、年金給付、健保補助跟教育支出其實這個不是你們管的啦這個錢該怎麼用其實也不是你們來說說明所以這個部分我認為啦這個說實話今天我想問的時候我比較想要問的是財政部跟主計處但是有一個最新的訊息當然就是今天自由時報的頭版也刊登了台中市長劉秀燕她的專訪"},{"start":5173.366,"end":5192.482,"text":"裡面他特別提到了就是有三點那麼包括現在呢已經跟美方拿到這個所謂發價書的還有就是美方已經跟我們在做溝通的加起來大概八百八千億這個部分他同意然後呢看到說他八千億到一兆啊"},{"start":5192.822,"end":5210.931,"text":"是 八千億到一兆來 我還沒有講完喔那 然後他有關於說是這個政府民間委託我們台灣商購的這個部分他也加進來所以會有一兆所以看到這個報導部長您覺得是不是在野黨可能同意會有轉圜"},{"start":5212.011,"end":5232.376,"text":"你怎麼看我第一個我還是要強調我們這個是因敵情威脅跟整體戰力的一個需求所做的一個系統性跟完整性的規劃是所以我們的七大能力的建構我們認為缺一不可那當然還是要感謝盧市長他沒有侷限於說這是一定要軍購他認為只要是"},{"start":5234.536,"end":5261.758,"text":"符合戰力所需的看起來應該是說他都可以來支持不一定要局限於某一個管道這樣這是那第三個就是他他有提到說這個有如果有非軍用的我是看到新聞但是我們這個的特別預算都是拿來做軍用的所以我在這邊也說明我們這個是有一個系統性跟整理性的規劃那希望我們"},{"start":5263.6,"end":5285.02,"text":"有納入年度預算有困難的情況之下在尋求我們的預算穩定然後資源集中的這樣子的一個需求之下我們當然希望這個不分朝野還是支持我們這個一兆2500億的這樣子的一個整體的一個這個特別預算的一個需求的規劃"},{"start":5286.381,"end":5308.84,"text":"部長雖然說這個看起來這個頭版像是一個好消息啦但是我其實還是強烈的質疑尤其是提到這個有關於還是有部分要回歸到所謂年度預算一旦要回歸年度預算那就會有剛剛您報告所說的這個排擠的部分所以我強烈懷疑甚至於擔心這會不會是一個國民黨的暢雙簧因為從我們這個軍購特別條例出來到現在國民黨的黨內"},{"start":5315.825,"end":5341.373,"text":"就一直有不同的聲音但是回到後來都屈服在黨主席底下啦所以我是強烈的懷疑啦這會不會是一個黑白臉的唱雙簧啦因為畢竟還是有一塊部分他認為還是要回到年度預算喔那回到年度這個所謂公務預算的時候他一樣會存在有排擠的部分所以部長你是不是覺得這個預算就可以這麼順利的可以通過"},{"start":5342.613,"end":5349.254,"text":"我們持續努力跟草野的各政黨來溝通好 謝謝好 謝謝接下來請王地瑜委員上台質詢好 謝謝主席 麻煩顧部長請顧部長"},{"start":5376.915,"end":5403.303,"text":"是 王老爺部長跟國安部各位同仁大家辛苦我請教一個問題就是說昨天晚上的媒體好消息啦82套的海馬士發價書在3月30號到期他同意展延到他跟承包商簽約的時候嘛我看到訊息是這樣子這個展延期到底多長"},{"start":5405.997,"end":5415.971,"text":"我們只能推估對大概多長因為如果展延的過程當中我們在委員會在立法院條例冷凍期還有一個月"},{"start":5417.031,"end":5443.38,"text":"冷凍期完了通過之後縱使通過之後邊預算還要回到委員會審查這個延長到底有沒有效果目前我們預估是目前美方表達大概是在五月底到六月初附近會完成意願因為以往正常的做法是我們發價書到時間到之前45天30天內簽約嘛付頭期款嘛美國因為這是軍售美國就會去跟他的承包商簽約嘛"},{"start":5444.58,"end":5464.812,"text":"那簽完約就委制開始生產後面是按批次喔所以上次我們講年底如果這一批錯過的話移到年底那個是簽約移到年底可是我們的批次量移到後面去就非優先那個交貨期程會大幅的往後拖啦這對戰力的構成是不利的所以我現在要跟你確定這個事情就是"},{"start":5465.532,"end":5493.745,"text":"美方在最後一刻同意展現到他跟他的承包商簽約這個是破例還是常態都可以這麼做這是破例我們引用的是他的那個6.2.1的emergency case implementation在我做了27年的軍售案的過程當中這是我們第一次引用這個條款罕見用到這個方式所以這其實是很有風險的他也可以不同意你我已經把你作為盟友把你放在最優先了啊"},{"start":5494.79,"end":5522.005,"text":"你們自己編輯出來但是好所以我現在聽到期程是五月份預估是五月份所以我們的預算的籌措最慢最慢要到五月份之前要完成這一件事那我就要請教我不知道這方不方便講投期款的預算需要多少金額剛剛我有回答就我們現在既有的這個四項四個案子已經拿到吧大概是"},{"start":5527.46,"end":5548.186,"text":"7900餘萬美金大概折合新台幣25億左右OK這就是所謂的開辦費啦就是簽約的開辦費他要跟他們的偽製廠商落馬啦各廠商要去做這個簽約款嘛所以大概需要籌款至少要25億所以你剛才部長就回答我後面要問的問題因為這個時候發價書到期的不是只有海馬仕啊"},{"start":5549.315,"end":5558.27,"text":"M109A7也到期啊還有其他不管是托兒B啦 標槍都到期嘛有的是3月16號就到期了那個有沒有簽約"},{"start":5559.756,"end":5571.581,"text":"我們現在因為經過授權了,所以我們現在已經提出發下書簽署的那現在之後也同樣會面臨投棄款的問題授權簽約不給半毛錢能不能簽?就簽署的同時當然要開始討論這個能不能往後延的問題"},{"start":5583.747,"end":5598.773,"text":"我印象A7是3月16日到期的沒有 我們授權發價書之後我們有再跟他講簽署發價書的時間授權之前我們跟他有講到要發價書簽署自己要延後我問的問題的癥結就是發價書到期我們要簽約嘛簽約要付deposit money 等於是簽約款"},{"start":5608.197,"end":5627.067,"text":"那付簽約款海馬斯會有遇到的問題其他的品項應該也會遇到那些問題怎麼解決?那個簽署的這個部分因為已經進入程序所以美方他已經把簽署的這一段的作業已經完成那接下來就支付首期款的這個部分"},{"start":5628.067,"end":5651.57,"text":"原則上我們在這個週末協調當中也針對另外三個案子去做討論美方的回應是他們會再確定這三個案的契約時間然後再來跟我們討論後面我們首期款支付延後的時間點會落在什麼時候所以目前已知的四項"},{"start":5652.831,"end":5671.834,"text":"放在特別預算的至少首期款要籌措25億台幣那我印象去年底川普通過的那幾項軍售案有的不是放在特別預算的有的政黨把它寫錯了有的放在年度預算可是我們年度預算到今天都還沒有審那個有沒有影響那個部分跟委員報告"},{"start":5673.876,"end":5689.254,"text":"H1W跟魚叉飛彈的那個定件保修的那個部分它是從114年開始的案所以這兩個案子它是所以科目在了對 他們前面其實已經就年度預算因為H1W影響到我們我們飛訊部歸人的這些飛官"},{"start":5693.138,"end":5707.699,"text":"你大量汰除將來要再這是人才的浪費嘛所以讓他研議讓人才可以留下一個飛行員培養是不容易的所以那一塊沒有問題那我請教部長當然現在在野黨的態度特別國民黨態度是有發酵輸我就給啊"},{"start":5709.11,"end":5725.461,"text":"有沒有可預期的我覺得我們在國會裡面先面對困難那也讓在野黨的朋友了解如果有沒有可預期的新的軍售案發價書在近期會發生以免我們在那邊討論半天協調半天冷凍期一個月"},{"start":5726.061,"end":5749.429,"text":"一過那邊又多新的發價書了我們剛過的東西又不夠用了你懂我意思嗎因為現在看起來在野黨要的那個條文第八條是沒有在這個預算給你一個上限匡列他要你重啟特別條例另外再送個法案可是那樣子坦白講我們認為那根本就不是特別預算也不是好的做法那在近期內有沒有可能有新的發價書就是新的軍售案"},{"start":5750.33,"end":5761.348,"text":"12月19那個時候是會國會的有五個案項是預計要擺入特別預算的嗎?那其中一個發現說還沒有到就是Artis 700M跟Artis 600ISR這兩個?"},{"start":5764.498,"end":5774.651,"text":"這是一個案,那這個的發價書應該也是近期可能會拿到所以可預計的RTS是700跟那一個夾艙它是700公斤,那600是ISR,這兩個是一個案所以這個案子"},{"start":5783.061,"end":5803.339,"text":"已經送交國會了 巴加蘇還沒上單智慧國會已經完成了所以是預期他應該是很快其實智慧國會一般就應該要開始作業了否則真的會來不及那還有沒有其他可預期的案包含媒體揭露的我想這個可能沒辦法在這裡做公開的說明那我接下來請教"},{"start":5804.577,"end":5823.996,"text":"我們今天樂見看到國民黨的台中市長盧秀燕盧市長她表態支持一兆到八千億的特別條例而且認為不應該等發架書這個講的就內行話了等發架書那個作業來不及那個流程應該要按照這幾十年來建立下來的制度來處理"},{"start":5825.646,"end":5848.906,"text":"那當然這到底是宣誓有沒有行動我們就看看國民黨的要角盧秀燕盧市長他能影響到的國民黨委員中部的國民黨委員願不願意支持國家的安全支持國家的國防從宣誓到行動那我要請教部長齁你有沒有打個電話給他沒有感謝一下嗎 沒有沒有"},{"start":5851.415,"end":5880.487,"text":"我想我們還是來大院裡面做報告這裡是你們的本務啦這裡國會需要聯繫要怎麼樣我建議行政部門未必由國防部我建議行政部門其實大家對國家安全的想像是一致的這是最好的我們政黨有很多不同政黨可以有很多競爭但是攸關國家安全攸關國軍要使用的武器裝備我覺得這沒有什麼黨派之分有一致的想法"},{"start":5881.701,"end":5889.696,"text":"我們就可以以正面的肯定當然一兆還是離我們1.25兆那個是詳實的計畫有點落差這可以溝通但我建議就是"},{"start":5890.39,"end":5919.662,"text":"透過這些意見領袖的表態化為行動也許我們在國會裡面討論這個案子可以慢慢收容減少一些政黨上的不管是意氣用事或惡鬥所以有關這一個盧秀燕盧市長她對軍購表態我個人建議國防部或者行政院適度地我覺得這是一個正向的發展雖然金額還是有落差但是總是往前又走了一點點部長你覺得怎麼樣"},{"start":5922.147,"end":5940.262,"text":"我想因為我們就這個特別預算要面對的就是大院我想我們會跟所有朝野各界來做溝通不過我們想我們主要會來進行溝通就大眾還有像各位委員那我想跟"},{"start":5941.383,"end":5955.059,"text":"盧市長之間的部分我如果要或者不要這個部分我想我印象你有跟他同事過我們第九屆的時候他是立委嘛你也是立委嘛是我在金管會他在財政委員會所以應該是有認識啦當然啦"},{"start":5959.904,"end":5978.154,"text":"為了國家大義我覺得我們就盡最大的努力不過特別預算特別條例是經過不管是我們國防部內部詳實的會議跟盟友之間的討論它是一個非常紮實科學準備的過程才有這1.25兆裡面不管是對外採購"},{"start":5979.295,"end":5997.913,"text":"台美建立在台灣的供應鏈或者是不對稱戰力或者整合我們的防空體系形成T-DOM這是一個完整的使用的用途所以除了金額以外8年期 它是8年1.25兆8年期的這個特別預算在使用用途上不能去"},{"start":5998.914,"end":6018.448,"text":"把台灣自己內部要建立供應鏈啊或者相關的不對稱戰力的誘因等等把它拿掉這是有點可惜所以我建議國防部在溝通的時候除了金額以外其實用途也很重要我昨天還是前天看到古立言他直接講不是只有對美軍購喔在台灣建立這一個供應鏈等不對稱戰力"},{"start":6020.029,"end":6043.501,"text":"非常重要所以這盟友也這樣提了所以部長我建議多方溝通立法院有時候直走有牆壁有時候繞著走會有樓梯所以我覺得這個為了國家大義要一起來努力真件兵工產線還有無人機的產制落地化然後形成國防任性這確實是非常"},{"start":6044.161,"end":6055.029,"text":"非常重要 那很重要那個金額也許佔比沒那麼大但是其實對台灣的防衛眾生軍備軍需的眾生很重要我最後建議一件事情有關扣除額的事情"},{"start":6056.667,"end":6085.967,"text":"我現在還有其他但來不及了我建議好請夜館參謀存餐然後看怎麼回覆我就是說我們現在後備軍人我們2.3就是230萬的後備軍人那參加教召我們現在14天的教召越來越紮實這是好事那演訓漢光演習有編了一個是一個後備軍人的後備旅這都是好的方向那我建議多一個配套誘因像美國國民兵後備部隊"},{"start":6087.247,"end":6110.778,"text":"參加離開家鄉160公里以上的他除了可以扣差旅費以外呢他可以有一些所得稅的扣除額也就是說當會當後備軍人的一定是年輕力壯年齡在就業範圍內所以當他來投入14天的教召或者漢光演習的時候呢對於他一些所得可以"},{"start":6111.678,"end":6126.425,"text":"不記錄科稅所得或者呢列一些扣除額這其實不僅是一個鼓勵這其實是一個尊崇就是你作為一個軍人哪怕你是後備軍人國家願意向你致敬雖然扣除額也許不會很多"},{"start":6127.205,"end":6150.342,"text":"不會相當高但是這一個會讓我做一個後備軍人我現在14天叫招我這些你報的錢不用報稅然後另外呢我在公司裡面一些所得呢還可以有抵扣額甚至於雇主也可以有抵扣額這個除了增加誘因以外是給軍人一個尊重這個我給部長跟我們夜餐這些參謀大家做參考那我們一起來努力這個方向"},{"start":6151.042,"end":6177.927,"text":"是 這可能需要跟財政部做財政部管錢管很緊啦但是我覺得這是一個可以推動的方向而且美軍有 美國有這樣的情形好不好好 那以上給國安部做參考 謝謝我們現在請沈博洋委員做質詢好 謝謝"},{"start":6189.131,"end":6192.454,"text":"今天發生比較多大事我剛剛看到新聞稿說習近平跟鄭麗文有可能要見面"},{"start":6214.073,"end":6240.493,"text":"我覺得這是很令人悲傷的事情就是說我們在上個禮拜我們不斷地在協調這些軍購相關的事項看起來都無法達成共識這個無法達成共識造成我們國防整個進度的拖延這其實就是中國想要的一旦造成了拖延結果現在發布這樣的一個消息說兩邊要見面我覺得這個是一個國之不幸"},{"start":6241.474,"end":6267.956,"text":"但另外一方面我們也看到就是剛剛定遠也有提到就是這一個盧秀燕市長還有特別提到說她贊成這樣的一個國防預算這個8000到1兆這個她特別接受轉訪那這個我覺得也請國防部可能要稍微了解一下就是不知道為什麼這一個盧秀燕市長有這樣那麼大的一個轉變因為畢竟從去年這個條例就已經被提出了"},{"start":6268.476,"end":6293.841,"text":"那這個條例從去年提出到現在過了很長一段時間他們一開始的講法是一毛都不要給然後後來講說可能可以三四千然後現在後來又一陣子說可以到八千那今天說可以到一兆我覺得他到底做哪一個班機那個班機上面放什麼電影是不是可以稍微了解一下不然的話就為什麼坐一趟飛機人可以做那麼大的一個改變我覺得這是一個很奇異的事情"},{"start":6294.441,"end":6318.828,"text":"當然我們期待這樣的事情發生我們也期待他跟國民黨的黨團跟傅坤祺或者說跟他們的主席來好好討論這件事情不然這個延宕其實對我們來講會是一個很大的問題接下來因為今天的題目雖然是在講整個預算的平衡但我相信在上個禮拜協商禮拜三禮拜四的過程當中已經討論很多所以我幾個小的問題我想先問一下"},{"start":6319.568,"end":6333.901,"text":"第一個就是就去年年底的時候去年年底的時候呢這個有兩千艘中國的漁船集結成這個倒L型的一個隊伍那這個這邊有一個很簡單的一個影片他有去秀出來說他的異常的狀況那可能可以幫我按一下"},{"start":6340.887,"end":6357.719,"text":"這些是漁船,漁船在移動的方式應該是屬於比較凌亂我們可以看到漁船慢慢形成這個道L形形成的過程對任何有在關心海事的事情都會認為這是一個異常的現象"},{"start":6361.562,"end":6390.852,"text":"我們看到就是說它的縱深大概是200英里的一個長方形而且長達大概30個小時所以這是一個軍事有這絕對是帶有一個軍事色彩的一個漁船鹹調的一個操演那我相信海巡有一定程度的對應那我想問一下國防部現在對這樣的一個事情這樣已經過了一段時間了嘛那目前的對應是什麼我們的分析是什麼我想這個活動的海域主要是位於"},{"start":6391.923,"end":6410.079,"text":"我們可以看到是中日間敏感的海域這個行為當然看起來是有高度的組織化因為我們都知道中共有運用海上民兵就是用漁船來作為海上民兵所以他的這個企圖"},{"start":6412.435,"end":6435.095,"text":"是不是在演練對特定海域的控制能力這是我值得我們關注那我們當然更值得關注的是應該是在台海周邊的部分那有沒有會運用相關的相同的這個模式在我們的台海周邊進行一個大規模的集結這個部分是我們要注意的所以我們會運用我們的相關的"},{"start":6436.028,"end":6461.118,"text":"所有的這個勤奸症的這個系統來全程掌握這個動態那來瞭解他是一個灰色地帶的洗澡還是他有準備要做再做進一步的後續這個部分的徵喉是我們要密切關注的對 因為他這個當然會不會出現在這個西南方我們還不知道"},{"start":6461.578,"end":6477.824,"text":"因為就最近嘛就三月初的時候呢那其實在這邊往更偏東的位置也有發生過一樣的事情那我覺得這是一個值得密切關注啦那國防部不一定要把這個到底我們是怎麼分析啦我們認為應該怎麼做全盤的透露但總之這是一個值得注意的現象"},{"start":6478.704,"end":6504.185,"text":"那另外我想問一下全棟鼠就是說這個因為我看到波蘭現在有一個全民自願國防訓練計畫那這個計畫裡面他就講到說有這個急救啦應對的機制啦什麼之類的那因為畢竟波蘭現在跟我們面臨到的威脅非常類似那他就做了兩個他自己取的名字啦一個叫任性之路一個叫後備之路"},{"start":6504.685,"end":6516.148,"text":"那我相信後備這個部分大概台灣有做跟他雷同的事情太多了而且我們的兵役的制度跟他不太相同所以但他有一個叫韌性之路這個韌性之路他裡面就特別提到說比如說要增強這個社會的韌性那這個有幾門課可以選擇然後呢這個團體的訓練然後呢要怎麼去搭配新的專案的要求"},{"start":6528.792,"end":6547.315,"text":"我稍微整理了一下就是呢它有安全的課程有急救的課程有生存的課程有資安的課程那因為在台灣這一個部分有一些是衛福部在做有一些是內政部在做但畢竟我們這邊有一個權動署算是一個有點像是指揮協調整個的單位那我相信"},{"start":6547.856,"end":6571.25,"text":"可能因為波蘭這個計畫很新我看它因為波蘭最近的國防預算也是一直增加它已經要到4%了然後它2026年4月然後最近才開始這一系列的課程所以它到底效益如何這個也是我們可以去評估那目前來講我們因為民間有很多這個我以前在民間我最熟民間有很多這種課程但是我的期待一直都是這不應該是民間"},{"start":6573.01,"end":6588.994,"text":"這應該就是政府來做那今天政府如果要來做這件事情跟內政部的協調還有國防部這邊的大戰略的策略到底是什麼現在國際看起來都在往這個方向走所以是不是權動署可以先做一個簡單的說明那我待會再問一小部分跟後備有關的委員好"},{"start":6592.112,"end":6614.861,"text":"首先剛剛就聽了委員的說明大概跟我們了解的是一致的他這個訓練的計畫不管是任性之路或者是後備之路他最主要的目的就是有兩個第一個就是提升全民的一個國防防衛意識第二個就是要來強化這個後備軍人的一個作戰能力"},{"start":6615.501,"end":6641.811,"text":"那他最終的目的呢就是要來備戰因為他看到烏克蘭被俄羅斯入侵的這個那我們看了他的這些課程就是安全 生存 急救這些治安的這些課程其實跟我們的全社會防衛任性現在正在推的各種這些計畫或者是訓練民間的訓練是不謀而合的比如說這個"},{"start":6644.864,"end":6668.993,"text":"這個內政部他在108年就開始有這個這個防災式的訓練那從去年開始他又擴大擴大除了這些我們各層級的這些消防人員他要做之外還有替代役跟這19個民間的這些團體比如說慈濟紅十字他都一起來搭配來做那去年他本來是要"},{"start":6670.353,"end":6692.63,"text":"10萬人他已經超過了11萬人那我們國防部也搭配內政部在所有的義務役的義難不管四個月或一個月的一年的在這個入伍的就有這個戰傷急救那到了下部隊之後兩週之內要完成這個防災防災式的這個訓練那這個訓練一樣都是在強化我們的社會韌性強化我們的社會韌性"},{"start":6698.935,"end":6717.104,"text":"至於後備的這一部分其實委員剛才也提到我們在今年開始都14天那裡都在戰術位置報到首席作戰計畫希望這樣子的一個訓練模式將來我們的後備動員之後它就是一個集戰你可以馬上投入作戰我先這樣補充"},{"start":6717.884,"end":6736.51,"text":"好 那這個就是我稍微很快速的問一下就是說後備這個部分就他們在講後備的時候他們有這個無人機的預備版那因為當然我們現在當然我們一直在討論無人機我們在我們年度的預算也有無人機然後我們在這一個特別預算那特別預算那一個不是我們一般可以操縱的無人機"},{"start":6737.37,"end":6757.985,"text":"那關於這一個無人機的軍事預備班他們最主要是重量不超過5公斤的非常小型的然後我看他在16所學校也有先做一些試辦從今年4月開始然後另外一個就是網路團這個我在之前質詢有提過因為在烏克蘭他們也有這樣做就是他除了原本比如說像我們的直通電本來就有專長的人嘛"},{"start":6758.505,"end":6779.366,"text":"他去跟民間原本的去開啟這個協作的關係這個協作的關係指的是說如果今天有任何災害發生的時候今天國軍跟這些所謂民間的這一個懂網路的能夠做這個網路的預備的能夠做攻擊防守的這一些人有沒有一個協調跟運作的機制"},{"start":6781.508,"end":6808.383,"text":"那這個在烏克蘭它是形成一個非常大的它是由國防部來主導那這個看起來並不是在我們現在直接的計畫所以那如果他們現在開始這樣做我知道我們有做一些簡單的這個無人機的訓練那我們的人才我們的能不能夠有適當就是那個充足的這個飛手跟我們有沒有夠多的比如說網路站的人才可以從民間做吸納這方面現在的規劃大概如何簡單的跟國人說明一下"},{"start":6808.663,"end":6827.131,"text":"跟委員報告一下現在有關無人機的這些非操守他在就是他以前在民間有這個專長那他如果退伍之後我們先把他列入邊管那後續在他就是進入教育召集的時候我們可能把這些人納入這個訓練的一個範圍跟範疇那加強他的在職的訓練這邊跟委員做簡單的那網路這一個部分呢"},{"start":6836.836,"end":6859.246,"text":"這個不都是 跟委員報告 這個都在我們的子民甄選的那一塊跟委員報告 因為我當然要說明一下就是說這些有特殊專長 而且是我們一定要 我們會把它放入子民所以它即使是 就是說它一個兵退伍那如果它是具有這樣我們認為急需的專長 我們把它納入子民"},{"start":6859.986,"end":6885.441,"text":"那現在後備的部分我們會把鞭石動員做為後續第一個項目所以將這個常備部隊的鞭石部分立即集戰化這個也是第二個重點大致上我們會按照一個順序然後接下來當然是首備旅後面再來是後備旅所以您剛剛講的這些專長包括他有一個重要的比如說無人機的專長或者是網路站特別是網路站我們會把這些人做一個"},{"start":6886.641,"end":6912.404,"text":"完全的管制然後把它納入指名召集的部分那最後一點就是說呢當然就是除了我們能夠找到人才我們開始有這樣的一個編組之外我們也要給一定的誘因所以這剛剛定宇文有提到的這個或許我們來跟財政部真的是可以來討論一下我們去增強那個誘因我覺得對他們來講的話他們更願意來加入是 這個要跟財政部溝通對 這跟財政部溝通好 謝謝部長因為時間差不多謝謝主席 謝謝"},{"start":6916.616,"end":6930.013,"text":"謝謝沈伯陽委員的發言下面我們請馬文君委員質詢馬委員好謝謝主席 麻煩請部長好 請部長"},{"start":6938.945,"end":6958.216,"text":"部長早部長我們今天就是大家關切的重點其實不只是支持國防因為其實我覺得在近幾年我們看得出來因為民進黨委員一直說在野黨好像不夠去支持我們國家的國防"},{"start":6958.776,"end":6965.861,"text":"或者罔顧國家的安全可是我們回顧這幾年來其實在很多在預算上面或者大家在監督上面其實如果更慎重我想對我們的國防安全還有我們的國家的需求還有軍人的福利其實可能在野黨比執政黨更到位這個部分必須在這裡說明一下因為今天關切的重點"},{"start":6989.676,"end":6998.918,"text":"目前國防預算的編列是不是仍然建立在作戰需求或者系統分析與實戰驗證之上還是已經變成由預算規模反向去主導建案的配置因為我們在幾次的這些建案裡面我們看到有些狀況已經不是像過去因為我們的作需細分我們的實戰驗證這一次在報告裡面"},{"start":7017.341,"end":7031.795,"text":"也特別有提到說是因為我們相關的規劃都是這樣逐步形成的而且兼顧我們財政負擔的能力同時報告也明確的提出來未來8年新興急迫需求達到1兆2500億宣稱可以帶動4000億元的產值而且創造大概9萬個"},{"start":7038.021,"end":7048.513,"text":"就業機會這些內容都寫在國防部自己的專案報告裡面我們看到過去其實我們也常常看到就是我們的國際國照我們的國建國照可以創造好幾萬個就業機會然後我們可以讓我們的"},{"start":7054.499,"end":7068.904,"text":"國內的產值可以提高可是我們卻都沒有看到那我們在野黨執政黨很多委員一直口口聲聲說只有支持預算才是真正的支持國防這是錯的"},{"start":7069.684,"end":7074.629,"text":"因為有很多發生問題的狀況他們卻過了以後從來都沒有再提過一次我們剛剛講的國機國造我們剛剛講的國艦國造我們剛剛講的很多我們戰機的採購還有包括我們彈藥的來源還包括我們飛彈我們所有"},{"start":7088.943,"end":7113.26,"text":"像我們常常提的包括國防部自己提現在目前至少承認的這三項延宕的這個部分其實它對我們國內的戰力都造成非常大的影響當時都說這個可能會產生如果沒有及時去獲得的話它大概都會對我們造成安全上非常大的一個傷害可是現在呢沒有人在乎"},{"start":7114.301,"end":7129.991,"text":"只在乎未來要用的錢可是在這個部分所以我們這裡要特別提出來說明我們監督我們只是讓國防部更有條件去做談判過去的國防部其實都是這樣做的而且成效不錯"},{"start":7130.891,"end":7157.302,"text":"反而近幾年我們什麼都不敢講然後只是一味的付錢這個才是我們最擔心的我們認為在這個部分裡面好像有一些部分其實是錯誤的當然總預算還沒有審查通過我們說在預備金上面沒有辦法動之可是我想請教的是我們有很多在延宕的一些軍購案裡面其實它有很多的"},{"start":7158.642,"end":7170.751,"text":"預算你們說都沒有付出去嗎不管是在我們自己手上可控的資金或者已經轉到美國聯邦儲蓄銀行裡面的像這些都不可以用嗎"},{"start":7172.008,"end":7200.222,"text":"這就涉及審計部門的那個意見了這一點如果委員應該要問到是我們在美的資金帳戶的部分那在美的資金帳戶的部分我們確實也有思考到但是這個部分我想一定要審計單位要能夠同意那當然如果有立法院因為他就是一筆歸一筆的我想這個主計可以再做一個衝突因為過去我們被"},{"start":7203.225,"end":7209.709,"text":"包委員我主席局局長我先跟委員報告有關局長你們剛剛部長其實已經有點到了就是這個部分如果審計單位有意見你們又覺得那麼重要因為你們在要這筆預算的時候非常的強力的訴求這是很重要的所以我們有那麼多的錢放在那裡不能用不能動用那框死在那裡這個也是我們現在要談的"},{"start":7228.303,"end":7247.933,"text":"今天如果我們過去有這麼多的錢放在那裡然後你連動都不能動那些已經框死在那裡的再加上我們現在又要框死一大筆預算然後如果他真的沒有到位他沒有辦法及時提供的時候我們有更多的錢是框死在那裡這是第一點如果你們連那個都不能用那你來告訴大家說這個錢"},{"start":7251.875,"end":7257.419,"text":"還可以活用然後我們不會有其他的疑慮如果未來八年你這麼大筆真的通過你的一兆兩千五百億到時候真的沒有到位而且又拖了很多很長時間不要在這裡跟我們說那個一定可以如期如質因為我看到的所有的很多都沒有如期如質如實所以如果像這個你們都沒有辦法保證那你自己的錢又不能動用雖然還沒有全部付給美國可是你就卡死在那裡這是第一點"},{"start":7281.277,"end":7298.284,"text":"第二點 3800億裡面 或者民眾黨的4000億不管是國民黨的版本 或者民眾黨的版本其實這一次美國第一階段通過的111億美元他其中 這是八項 111億美元是八項同意的軍售案 對不對這是八項嘛 111億啊"},{"start":7306.381,"end":7320.711,"text":"對啦111億你說那個框列在國民黨黨版的那個8項不是不是我說美國這一次同意的111億美元就是同意8項嘛對但有5項我們是要列入特別預算嘛部長"},{"start":7321.531,"end":7345.8,"text":"我們現在來看111億美元五項放在特別預算其中有三項放在我們的公務預算裡面在特別預算裡面的這五項其實它只有九十幾億如果換算下來它至少還有600億的可用的金額其實是可以去使用的假設如果像你們剛剛在質疑的說萬一它第二階段突然再"},{"start":7347.361,"end":7372.986,"text":"很快的時間然後公告了以後我們的頭期款又付不出來錯如果這個部分很快你們可以在時間內大家如果協商同意我們沒有反對它只是它的程序的問題我們現在要的是更務實的去掌握我們的預算支出剛剛你們有提到就是我們質疑的部分嘛如果你沒有辦法有效的運用那你框死在那裡對我們是不利的"},{"start":7374.346,"end":7397.192,"text":"第二個如果通過不管是國民黨或民眾黨的版本第一階段沒有人說不支持後續的啊可是你一步一步的來因為大家還沒有共識的情況之下最快的就是你通過以後其實它至少有六百億以上的可用的餘額資金您講的六百億是指在美國的那個不是不是不是所以您剛剛講的六百億是指"},{"start":7397.972,"end":7404.274,"text":"我們現在有三千八百億或四千億對不對那你說你現在列的那個三千八百億貴長的檔板的裡面這個三千八百億就是說如果現在其實我們放在那個特別預算裡面其實只有五項那五項其實只有九十幾億美金算你九十幾億的美金大概三千多億出頭啦所以如果通過任何一個版本其實它都是有"},{"start":7427.662,"end":7440.426,"text":"多餘的這樣的資金其實是可以做這樣的使用因為只要國會肯授權我覺得那是沒有問題所以就這個部分我想如果國會授權是授權我們動用哪一筆錢因為你預算案還沒過啊"},{"start":7443.379,"end":7469.784,"text":"你可以把預算通過我現在講的就是如果你預算通過部長你沒聽清楚我現在講的是我現在講的是那個金額裡面包含的部分其實已經放大很多不會是剛剛夠的因為你們之前在那裡算匯率算什麼其他的就這個部分我想其實也要理清楚所以不是他沒有辦法如果他來不及不要怪在野黨其實堅持過不了"},{"start":7471.724,"end":7476.949,"text":"的版本其實才是真正去擋美國的軍購對於對美的軍購或者對美採購的武器項目或者我們應該合理獲得的這些武器裝備我們都沒有意見可是我們希望是在合理透明的監督之下對於國家才是真正有利的我們看到很多過去的案例啊"},{"start":7495.268,"end":7500.631,"text":"因為我們檢視近年的建案跟採購實務看到一個值得高度警惕的現象就是說我們通過很大筆的預算可是它不完全是有作戰需求去推導出來的而是感覺像先確定預算規模然後再回頭去把它填一些項目內容這個是我們比較擔心的那我們這一次在推出的八年期的一兆兩千五百億的內容裡面我們看到的"},{"start":7523.626,"end":7528.128,"text":"大概就是彈藥或者其他可能還要雙邊合作或者還有什麼其他的內容有些不清不楚太模糊所以我們沒有辦法去做這樣子的一個審視可是這個內容大部分都是屬於長期而且可預期而且是跨年度的支出我們卻用特別預算的方式處理特別預算本來應該用在緊急而且不可預測的重大事項裡面"},{"start":7550.757,"end":7577.815,"text":"如果把長期規劃性的支出放在特別預算雖然可以減輕年度的預算壓力可是也削弱我們審查跟監督的強度為什麼審查跟監督那麼重要因為它對於我們的國防預算有限的國防預算它其實是很重要的因為我們在具體的案例上面就可以看到那個問題的所在我們之前在國防認清特別條例裡面就很簡單的採購上面"},{"start":7581.017,"end":7601.514,"text":"社會上已經看到很多讓人民一聽就有感的例子比如說我們一瓶水可以買到一百二十塊錢我們一張椅子可以買到五萬元人民之所以會憤怒不是因為一瓶水或一張椅子這些錢八億多或者像這樣兩千多萬就會拖垮我們的財政國家的財政而是因為這一類案例很清楚的傳達一件事情"},{"start":7608.28,"end":7631.886,"text":"如果你沒有好好的監督連最基礎最日常最容易比價的這樣子的一個採購內容都會失真的時候我們人民要怎麼相信上千億元的軍事投資不會出現更大的失真這是我們要討論的一個部分這個也是大家為什麼而且剛剛還有一點"},{"start":7633.906,"end":7651.73,"text":"我們國防部在報告裡面還有對外也很清楚的說我們在未來的三年是付款的高峰期不管我們的刺針飛彈或者我們的魚砂飛彈或者我們其他的M1A2或者我們其他的死神無人機或者我們其他的一些相關的採購支出未來三年是高峰期"},{"start":7657.091,"end":7672.104,"text":"所以可見三年以後我們高峰期過了其實我們的公務預算上面其實是有空間跟餘裕的所以我們是不是應該要一步到位全部都把它用在特別預算上面然後就"},{"start":7673.769,"end":7682.214,"text":"避免比較審慎的一個監督還有失去他的透明度我覺得這就是我們現在要提出來討論的因為時間的關係啊我們剛剛講的其實大家應該你今天既然要說明財政的狀況你就應該把它更清楚的說明第一你把特別預算常態化了第二我們的公務預算不是未來全部"},{"start":7698.323,"end":7713.156,"text":"都只有84億的上限而是你在付款高峰期過後其實它會有其他的又重新開始那你相對的如果比較重要的其實你甚至都可以放在公共預算上面這也是我們的態度我們也非常支持我們的國家安全跟我們的國防"},{"start":7718.34,"end":7722.084,"text":"那另外在這裡借一點點時間我想要請教國防部 請我請教部長這個ARTIS 600這個部分我們對美因為這一次對美的那個軍售項目裡面其中也有這個案子那ARTIS是我們提出需求或者是美國軍方的建議當時我們會買 因為我們第一批已經來了嘛"},{"start":7743.243,"end":7761.181,"text":"在專案裡面原來我們編一百一十五億後來美方同意的價格其實只有五十五億其中高達六十億的價差我想要請教的是ALTIS六百這是我們提出的需求或者是美方"},{"start":7762.608,"end":7786.555,"text":"提供的建議包委員這是我們提的需求這在前年的時候我們年底在討論列銷案的時候這也是我們提出的需求所以我們是直接指商所以我們要買這一家那時候我們有做了一個專報就是我們真正這個反甲無人機飛彈的需求是兩千多具那所以上一次我們已經採購了大概兩百九十幾套的那個Otis 600M型"},{"start":7787.395,"end":7800.177,"text":"那因為我們依據最近跟美方討論的結果他們RTS600M型它已經在做性能的升級所以在這一波裡面我們把前面那個需求的部分把它補足"},{"start":7800.936,"end":7803.078,"text":"我們比較特別感興趣的就是說為什麼不是感興趣啦我們比較懷疑關心的是為什麼我們會選擇這一款因為我們看到媒體報導上面Artist 600M在實彈測試當中五架衰掉三架雖然陸軍有回應說這個報導不屬實"},{"start":7823.797,"end":7830.159,"text":"可是我們卻沒有辦法有具體的實證說它是好的事實上它就是掉了三架那你要做其他等我把它講完因為時間比較有限那我們在本席你說獲得的武器規劃要做年度的重大演訓或實戰化的驗證可見它還沒有做好驗證那本席查證美安和局的網頁也發現除了台灣以外世界各國都沒有大量採購Artis無人機"},{"start":7853.644,"end":7859.166,"text":"這個部分不管是美軍現役的他們包括海空軍其實他們測試的結果都不好所以其實他們也沒有採購那另外還有媒體也報導美方曾經送一批到烏克蘭實戰驗證可是發現他會墜毀而且沒有辦法集中目標而且會遭遇俄羅斯電戰攻擊的時候他表現狀況也不好所以2024年他就已經停止使用沒有再部署過那就"},{"start":7883.275,"end":7904.948,"text":"還包括美國的海空軍的驗證他會高空俯衝或螺旋式的墜落這個指揮控制軟體的表現也不如預期美國的海軍報告更嚴厲的指責系統不斷出現作戰安全違規承包商更有誤導行為顯示這款無人機在控制軟體上面還在發展測試修改的這個階段我們國軍為什麼持續購置沒有驗證"},{"start":7911.932,"end":7929.739,"text":"的這樣的裝備剛開始你們花了五十幾億去採購這樣子是我們提出需求今天有得到這樣的答案那為什麼我們會提出這樣的需求甚至在過去其實它的戰場的時機並不好的情況底下那現在又要很快的又要去採購這些"},{"start":7932.049,"end":7948.343,"text":"報委員 我就您剛才的提詢我做幾點回應第一點我再一次的報告並沒有如媒體報導所謂五價在我們的實際的涉及當中並沒有媒體報導所謂五價摔掉三價這個情勢那摔幾下 第二個"},{"start":7949.785,"end":7970.983,"text":"這整個的我要報告的是說它符合我們陸軍的需求什麼樣的需求我不單獨的為安德里這家公司去做背書但是我為什麼講它符合我們的需求因為無人機是一個高度迭代的一個彈藥或是一個武器那它可以依照我們的需要"},{"start":7972.364,"end":7975.746,"text":"不斷地去針對我們防禦作戰的要求做韌體軟體的一個提升跟延改那第三個也就是說在未來我們採購的Altus 700跟這個600的ISR這個當中它其實它是運用了一個高度迭代的模型不斷地針對抗干擾還有它的導控"},{"start":7992.996,"end":8003.122,"text":"還有它的這個項的飛鈔以及它的穿透能力去依照我們的需求去做提升跟延改所以這這幾點要向委員做說明參議長你講的是矛盾的我們剛剛講我們提出需求的時候我們已經花了55億去採購可是我們剛剛講的先例就是不管烏克蘭也好不管美國也好它自身其實都沒有做到採購另外"},{"start":8018.43,"end":8034.944,"text":"另外你小額的不要拿來講因為他拿來做他的驗證還沒有過你那個是小量我剛剛說大量使用包括美國自己都還沒有用而且他也不用而且美國的報告裡面產品都是由美國的軍種"},{"start":8035.965,"end":8045.652,"text":"對於合約商 我知道啦 那個跟合約商沒有問題嘛你們剛剛說這是你們自己提出的需求啦所以我現在是說為什麼會提出這個需求剛剛你也提到他必須要迭代的進步可是當我們都還沒有確切的掌握到他的實證 驗證裡面他可以有提升的效果我們現在又急著買後續的我們前面已經買55億了那在"},{"start":8062.803,"end":8087.362,"text":"M跟R跟ISR差在哪裡我只有兩點報告第一個我們前面買的685架的那個台灣刀300跟291架的Altius 600雖然我們是這個291架都已經到貨了但是它仍然還在依照我們的需求去幫我們做軟體跟韌體的提升這是第一點"},{"start":8087.882,"end":8097.067,"text":"為什麼你在買的時候不是就已經要符合我們的需求你才買你花了高達十幾億甚至原來他跌貸都還沒有出來你第一代就這麼差跌貸也還沒有經過驗證而且我們"},{"start":8104.071,"end":8110.277,"text":"他不可能用未來的規格去做現在的驗證他也就是實際上在他遭遇到各項的干擾你現在的驗證就已經是大家都沒有通過的你怎麼會是未來我們現在要的不是未來我們現在要的是現在而且是可以即時發揮戰力他是通過美國Otis-600是通過美國海軍的測試的啊"},{"start":8127.293,"end":8129.235,"text":"請把相關的資訊提供給我們不要只看PTT公司的PTT然後去做這樣的採購如果有然後他非常好請提供相關的資訊"},{"start":8143.169,"end":8167.803,"text":"數據跟驗證資料沒關係參謀長我們希望國防部提供相關的驗證的或者已經測試他一定有他一定是有驗證的或者測試的那個相關資料如果有請提供那另外因為我們要就一點時間在尖針型的無人機的部分因為M是攻擊的嘛ISR是尖針我們為什麼又要買尖針"},{"start":8171.679,"end":8194.753,"text":"因為它基本上這個就有ISR有1導多的功能也就是說一個ISR它大概它可以導600它可以導這個600M也可以導700M那線型的600M它只是一個依照我們的設定去攻擊目標那ISR它基本上至少是達到1導3以上的一個性能"},{"start":8196.65,"end":8209.543,"text":"我們你測試過了嗎這個為將來我們在報我們到美國的專案這個這個專案會議的時候我不是將來就說他已經測試過了嗎我現在要說的是不是你已經測試過了嗎到預算獲得之後到美國去實際的見這個去做這樣的一個性能的"},{"start":8220.505,"end":8240.081,"text":"測試會是我們陸軍未來必要做的一個項目所以你是已經編了預算以後你才要去美國做這樣的測試而不是他經過測試以後驗證可以然後你才買這個部分這個軍售他不是商售我們的對象我們的簽約對象就是美政府也就是美國的專責軍政你可以美這個是有我們是"},{"start":8240.481,"end":8244.424,"text":"我們可以買 因為無人機在很多戰場上面都經過實戰的測證的驗證不管在烏克蘭也好 不管在現在的中東也好其實它有很多的來源它有很多經過實戰驗證然後我們偏偏挑一個還沒有實戰驗證測試通過的這個部分 而且你一次買非常大量而且在很短期的時間我們現在後續我們再可能有一些時間 請如果"},{"start":8267.381,"end":8271.424,"text":"因為你們會指定這樣的廠商然後指定買採購這樣子的一個裝備而且是我們對美國提出要求美國軍售沒有錯可是他是因為因應我們的要求有時候他會建議所以剛剛你說這是我們提出的需求為什麼我們提出這個需求我們希望有比較確切的然後比較好的因為那攸關我們的國家安全今天我們如果花很多的錢然後買到的可能是不好的台灣就這麼大的"},{"start":8296.421,"end":8321.766,"text":"他如果上空有這麼多的無人機然後他很容易掉下來他打到的可能不是敵人他打到的是我們自己然後他有很多的風險我們卻還是採購這樣因為他說槌子降落啊螺旋式的這些失敗的案例我們到底有沒有考慮這個部分也放在我們的特別預算裡面所以我們希望可以審慎的評估每一筆預算我們支持你可以買"},{"start":8322.506,"end":8328.672,"text":"可是你要買至少不合我們作戰需求的這是我們的重點好不好謝謝謝謝馬委員發言黃建斌委員質詢"},{"start":8356.448,"end":8358.013,"text":"好謝謝主席主席我們有請部長好有請部長"},{"start":8366.195,"end":8391.263,"text":"是 方偉部長早安 部長這樣國家的財政就像家庭財務一樣我們支出增加就會面對資源要重新分配的這個問題當某一項的支出快速的成長那其他的支出勢必就會受到影響那這幾年其實我國的國防預算大幅的增加那2026年接近9500億已經超過GDP的3%我們的賴總統也明確的宣示說未來我們要達到GDP5%的目標"},{"start":8396.805,"end":8415.926,"text":"那如果未來要達到賴總統承諾的這個5%的GDP的這個目標行政院是不是有給我們國防部穩定的財源保證穩定的財源保證跟委員報告齁我先說明一下以115年度為例國防部本身的預算在年度預算是55614"},{"start":8418.117,"end":8446.56,"text":"五六一四那您剛講的九千多億應該就是說我們參照北約的這個不 反正就是說未來我們要達到GDP五百來講啦有沒有穩定的財源給我們我們總統宣示嘛未來我們的GDP要占五百嘛我只是先說明一下我剛講的就是說年度預算是五六一四嘛那當然還有一些其他基金預算等等那因為我們用NATO來算所以還有這個海巡署的還有退伍會的"},{"start":8447.481,"end":8463.417,"text":"那這個先說明一下那第二個當然我們在報告裡面也說明了我們未來三年所一個付款高峰期的持續案的部分大概要有五千七百億的一個預算的需求那另外還有新增案如果我們沒有"},{"start":8463.817,"end":8477.428,"text":"將特別預算擺進來的話大概新政案有700多億的這一個案項也還要獲得滿足所以我們才會提出8年的新興急迫需求一兆2500億的特別預算"},{"start":8478.117,"end":8500.772,"text":"那我的意思是說如果在有沒有穩定的財源的保證如果在沒有穩定財源的情況之下這筆錢要從哪裡來如果按照我們現在我們國房預算的增加速度遠遠高於我們的年度的稅入嘛那如果在未來不加稅然後不去排擠其他預算情況下看來好像也只有常態性的舉債這個部分嘛那"},{"start":8502.17,"end":8511.457,"text":"這個我們要擔心的就是說難道我們因為要這些讓像下一代去備債嗎這件事我要問更具體的問題就是說目前國防預算的這個大幅的成長除了"},{"start":8513.442,"end":8540.331,"text":"年度的預算除了一部分來自舉債以外特別預算大概都是用在這個採購大量的新式武器那新式武器買了之後我們養不養得起這是我的重點那我們未來面對交付的這個高峰期新式裝備陸續的服役本行要請教說未來這些新式武器的作業維持費包括你的維修養護跟這些訓練經費總體規模的推估是多少那是不是有納入長期的財政規劃"},{"start":8542.893,"end":8547.119,"text":"市長 委員報告這個都在我們的規劃範圍之內那詳細的部分要看這個相關的武器裝備"},{"start":8551.756,"end":8578.771,"text":"我們這個區分兩個部分來講我們作為費的部分針對未來五年所需要的那個額度就是新的武器裝備的這個部分會納到我們在建案作業階段的時候就會把它納入那另外一個部分是我們還要配合舊式武器裝備的汰除會兩個一起並同考量然後去衡量這些新式武器裝備未來的預算需求然後做一個年度的一個編列"},{"start":8580.188,"end":8596.025,"text":"所以我們有做這樣的規劃?對有啊現在就是這樣做那如果說我們現在是成本會持續的增加對不對那會不會未來會排擠到我們國防部內部的自己的軍事投資跟人員維持的預算阿梅"},{"start":8598.256,"end":8625.892,"text":"委員的意思是說我們的軍頭的預算帶動了作業維持費的增加那我剛剛已經講過了就是說他在軍頭建案的時候他至少要一開始的時候他就會把兩年的備份料件都會納入進去那之後還要再看這個武器裝備的性質我們會納入全受理的管理來了解這樣的全受理管理之下他的這個維持費會占到多少那不同的武器裝備會有不同"},{"start":8626.172,"end":8645.483,"text":"所以這個本來就要做長年期的規劃所以部長未來是不會影響到嗎那另外還有一個舊裝備還要太儲啊所以這個不斷的是在一個滾動的一個修正當中啊那沒有說我們去籌購一個新的裝備就會使作業維持會一定會"},{"start":8646.483,"end":8657.397,"text":"一定會或一定不會我們本來就要做一個整體的規劃嘛對 本席是說我們買了新的裝備之後未來它養物費會增加嘛新裝備會不會影響它的維持會比舊裝備高啊譬如說你現在新的裝備你M1 A2進來"},{"start":8664.264,"end":8676.842,"text":"那跟你維持一個CM11的作業的維持費這個屬於我們要汰除的部分哪一個維持費會高所以本事問的是會不會影響到會不會這樣所以以後勤來講"},{"start":8679.366,"end":8705.789,"text":"委員好我是侯時事次長向委員報告我們舉CM111例子他進入中售期之後他的維持費比在前售期的時候double所以新的裝備包含我們的備份零附件包含回來之後依照寄令我們去準備的後續的維修料件未必會比老裝備更耗錢這是第一點第二個很多事情都是要推陳出新嘛是我們把老新的裝備買進來之後更符合我的作戰需求"},{"start":8706.089,"end":8733.045,"text":"我老裝備不符合專業需求或是裝備老舊耗更多的作為費我就必須要貸出這中間一定會有一個這個要平衡您問說會不會一定比新裝備買回來之後你要多花錢或是說一定會影響到這沒有辦法做保證因為所有的裝備我們現在還沒有通通都獲得那在獲得之後一定的額度之內我們必須要貸出老裝備把錢投入在新裝備的維護上好"},{"start":8735.97,"end":8762.744,"text":"因為本協會這樣問就是說我們會好奇說我們買了新的裝備勢必你日後的維護費會增加那我們現在是用特別預算採購對不對採購新的裝備那這些裝備日後他是不是還有他的維護費要用那是不是變在一般的預算裡面所以嘛是不是那我要問的時候這些會不會增加那你增加之後你會不會影響到你原本你國防部內部的這些你的規劃你的人事費你的作業費跟你的投資會不會影響到主要是問這一塊"},{"start":8764.205,"end":8785.101,"text":"所以這個部分是要了解到,我們會影響到這樣沒關係,我意思不一樣,對不對不是,但是委員的意思好像先提會有一個命定,就是說一個命定的一個假設,說現狀被禁來,然後維持會不會增加然後會大幅的增加,這一個講法,我想是不對的"},{"start":8786.371,"end":8803.001,"text":"這個講法是不對的部長我們想要了解到就是說我們都支持要買新的武器新的裝備符合我們未來的國防的趨勢來保護這個國家安全但是我們也不希望說買這些東西之後你未來都沒有編列相關的維護費用的時候我們會造成這種情況我們就一直在講我們會編列"},{"start":8806.363,"end":8819.92,"text":"我們這邊有未來10年這個維持那個作業維持費的這個推國服務我們全受期我們在做這個分析的時候都會將全受期的這些維護都全部都要放進來所以這些在我們的作業文件裡面就有一項是專門在做這個的"},{"start":8821.562,"end":8848.444,"text":"因為本系統報告裡面並沒有看到所以要了解說我們到底有沒有做這些東西如果沒有的話我們擔心的是什麼我想我們可以下去以後跟委員詳細的就每一個建案的文件包括從作戰需求系統及其成功向到整體的獲得規劃的每一個項目跟委員做一個報告部長本席想要了解就是說我們擔心的是我們有錢買新的武器我們會不會養不起新武器就像你有能力去買超跑可是你沒有錢去換軍資"},{"start":8850.205,"end":8861.016,"text":"作為環防部長我最擔心的是養一切維修費用很高但是沒有任何作戰能力的所以重點是在他能不能發揮我們整體的作戰"},{"start":8862.369,"end":8875.918,"text":"的需求的能力啦會問這些問題就是說我們在擴張軍備的同時其實我們還是要考慮到後期的規劃的成本我們就是有規劃所以包括那個能力跟資源的部分我們會很願意來跟委員做一個充分的溝通謝謝部長的說明 謝謝"},{"start":8884.462,"end":8913.121,"text":"那部長其實大家其實擔心的是這樣身為民意代表最重要因為專業是國防的部分但民意代表我們身為立法委員我們主要是監督整個財政的狀況這也是為什麼大家在討論這件事情我們擔心的是不只是日後兩會還要包括我們的財政會不會受到衝擊這是我們在考慮的那好那我們也時間差不多了我再問一下另外一個問題就是說在今年1月1號發生台中外F16的這個私事的事件"},{"start":8914.315,"end":8932.07,"text":"我們有軍事雜誌在推斷說是不是跟我們奉產計畫沒有變更老舊的線數有關導致整個戰機飛行的先入老化影響我們電路的系統那不然我們現在已經撈到這個黑盒子了吧對不對是那現在我們整個交召買方關係的進度是怎麼樣"},{"start":8933.932,"end":8954.699,"text":"報告委員一般這個黑盒子的判讀大概是需要30天左右但是還是要看黑盒子裡面的狀況因為要看他的資料完整性跟他的這個裡面資料存儲有沒有受到破壞所以說30天這個是至少要30天目前掌握的狀況是這樣那我們也在撈到之後隔天就直接送到美國"},{"start":8955.345,"end":8980.045,"text":"如果說真的像這個雜誌寫的未來這個查到這是跟限入老化有關的話我們國防部是不是有啟動全機隊的這個的特檢跟改善的計畫有嗎報告委員這個已經在112年全數完成我們原本的block兩棟的提升它包含所有限數的更新這個都已經做完了好 謝謝是謝謝主席 謝謝部長 以上好 謝謝委員好 謝謝"},{"start":8983.291,"end":8990.035,"text":"我們先宣告等一下許巧欣委員質詢完畢以後休息5分鐘現在請許巧欣委員上台質詢現在主席我們有請顧部長請顧部長"},{"start":9010.465,"end":9032.714,"text":"部長我們今天要問的是有關於這個教召的部分那國防部在111年7月呢將後備指揮部那一下是編給陸軍114年2月又把這個交給屬性是幕僚單位的權動所來指揮那我先想請問一下現在目前我們這個動員教召的目的可不可以簡要的說明一下"},{"start":9033.624,"end":9054.233,"text":"各位有沒有第一個我們是將後備旅的部隊部隊本身移回給陸軍後備指揮部還在這個權動署底下因為權動署成立之後那後備跟這個權動署結合嘛那屬於動員教召的部分就是屬於權動署的權責範圍內所以委員要問的是指教召的"},{"start":9059.795,"end":9086.852,"text":"沒有 我是剛剛請你簡要說明我的問題在後面就是說教招的部分呢無論是待遇 編制或是裝備都相當的重要這一點國防部還是要注意那所以說呢 在最近在這一次3月14到27號到憲兵這邊14天的教招裡面我相信您應該都有看到相關的新聞了就是呢 發生了這個同工同街 不同酬職務加急 有或沒有的欠薪案例"},{"start":9087.552,"end":9114.574,"text":"那請先說明一下這個案情因為有具體的陳情人他就是表示說他們這個發薪資的時候用先跟他當事人同一個級數的階級比對了一下薪資發現雙方的薪資是不一樣的那所以想請問一下這個案情到底是如何你們了解的狀況目前是怎麼樣以及加配人員補發後續改善的進度為何"},{"start":9115.831,"end":9137.993,"text":"委員好,我是憲民參謀長,針對您所述的案情,我做三點說明第一個就是有關於該飲食是加配德援的規劃,在計劃作業階段有10%是加配德援那加配德援的人力主要是作為在報到之後,因為和民未到其他因素影響整體人力,有所的一個預備兵力的規劃"},{"start":9139.935,"end":9161.339,"text":"那他在邊管系統上這些人也不過不論是幹部或士兵他是沒有領導家籍的就在系統的初始的編程的狀況是如此那第二點就是在3月14號實施動員教召報到之後的確我們幹部有因為報到人力的現況將加推德演的幹部納入領導幹部的編制來實施執行等領導工作"},{"start":9166.4,"end":9184.22,"text":"但是就少做了一個程序就是要完成職務名冊的調整以及同步修訂動員邊管系統一個職務系統的管制所以說在發薪資的時候也造成了薪資以他實際工作的太陽是不符的狀況影響個人的權益"},{"start":9186.542,"end":9201.959,"text":"那第三個,針對上訴的人等我們這一部也全部的清查目前掌握有三位的立案當事人我們都有聯繫來說明我們會按照程序在一週內就是本週,完成所有薪資的撫發"},{"start":9203.14,"end":9224.782,"text":"另外針對這個作業疏失本部也在今天召開了檢討會會針對作業的流程以及對流的不熟悉除了來究責相關檢討幹部之外並加強教育所俗一定要完備相關的程序以避免而後的劣害以上報告好 非常好但是我在想就是說這次是因為有人去反映了"},{"start":9225.362,"end":9240.319,"text":"那但是你們有沒有想過就是說在這一題之前有沒有類似的狀況就是這是第一次發生嘛當然在這一題裡面您剛提到了有三期啦那我當然合理的會覺得說那前一題呢那在上一題呢我們要如何去"},{"start":9241.622,"end":9267.069,"text":"各位報告十四天教召對我們來講是年度第一批那去年呢去年沒有去年沒有今年是第一次第一次十四天官士兵同時報到第一次實施的十四天的官士兵的同時報到我想我會請他們檢討就是說發生這個錯誤的這個原因是什麼那我們因為現在實施十四天的教召會有這種狀況那"},{"start":9269.35,"end":9296.38,"text":"要如何讓他這個錯誤不會再發生這可能是我們要去檢討好那因為你說是第一次嘛好不過因為除了這個憲兵之外那另外我們可以看一下這個陳情仁的說法我剛剛念過了那剛剛您有解釋說這個佳佩德遠沒有領導佳姐的這個部分但我覺得啊因為很多的這個招援他們對於剛剛您所述的這個部分可能不是很清楚"},{"start":9296.92,"end":9313.995,"text":"就如同說你們也是第一次辦所以很多事情可能在沒有很清楚的狀況之下做了一些疏失所以說像這個待遇的部分除了憲兵之外其他的比如說像因為其實在這個新聞底下我去看了滿多的留言又表達他們對於"},{"start":9315.636,"end":9338.929,"text":"這個之前接了這個教召之後比如說你看這個他是陸戰隊的教召那他接了14天的上市的執行官但他被告知說他是加配德援所以他也沒有領導加級所以這個部分可不可以回應一下就是說除了憲兵之外可能其他的軍種是不是也要一併的一起來研究看看有沒有類似的情況來說明一下"},{"start":9339.389,"end":9351.536,"text":"海軍參訪報告 報委員這個我們再下去了解但是因為叫召的情形要看他的正式的位置是不是屬於領導職務才有當然啊當然啊那這個部分我們再下去了解那你看因為他講說他是做的是上市執行官嘛應該就是背一個他可能就部隊集合其他的詳細的事情對 所以你們要講得很清楚嘛"},{"start":9358.72,"end":9369.541,"text":"就是說誰能夠有誰沒有這個要講很清楚那你的這個界定是怎麼界定的這個不是對我說明這個是對來參加教招的招員們要做說明"},{"start":9371.607,"end":9389.708,"text":"我是權動署署長謝謝你這麼關心那我先跟委員報告所謂加配得援他為什麼要多選這個10%或20%就是為了要避免有些我們已經選到的這些招援他因為事故生病或者是入監服役"},{"start":9390.569,"end":9419.545,"text":"他不能來那我們已經把他和免掉要來補充這些人所以應該是在在我們把他和免了那我們用加配得援的這些人來補充的時候他就會有一個編制如果他補充到這個主觀的職務領導的職務那我們將來在薪資上就可以給他有領導加緊照你講的話根本不會出現剛剛的錯誤啊因為你在一開始的時候就已經把大家都分配好了還會有一梯裡面有三個人沒有領導的"},{"start":9420.245,"end":9443.67,"text":"所以報委員 那我們也發覺可能有一些基層的幹部 比如說連長 營長 他們可能不知道這樣子所以我們 你這樣講不太對我們跟你講 因為你是講說 你現在變成是說你前面 就是你前期作業 他來之前就已經把大家的這些任務 然後誰是領多少 這些都已經分配好嘛"},{"start":9444.07,"end":9461.183,"text":"那變成是說基層的幹部按照你的指示下去發那怎麼還會弄錯呢?加配德援他是沒有在編制裡面那把這些和免的人和免掉之後那把加配德援這些人再來充實和免掉的職務這些缺"},{"start":9462.183,"end":9490.782,"text":"所以說可能有一些幹部對這個不了解那我們也要求後備縣市後備責任部他在每一梯叫召的時候都會成立一個事故處理小組我們把這個列為務必要去了解到底有沒有加配德援這樣子的現象我跟您說這一梯是因為裡面有對於國軍薪資結構了解的招援在裡面所以他才反映出這個事件"},{"start":9491.983,"end":9520.661,"text":"如果今天因為只有三個人嘛如果今天剛好那三個人裡面他沒有對於國軍的薪資結構了解的人這個事情就吵吵過去了那就有一些人他根本應得的待遇沒有得到但是卻沒有人為他發聲所以這件事情就像顧部長講的請你們要好好檢討是再來我要問一下一樣是縣執部齁那這個縣訓中心叫招的人員的軍種就我了解齁像以這個梯子來說只有三分之一是憲兵而已啊是嗎"},{"start":9522.321,"end":9539.833,"text":"是的剩下三分之二哪來的其他因為憲兵專場不是高階專場所以說遭援不足的話會統一有後備職務來做同階的專場調配所以人不是原單位編組也是另外一層"},{"start":9541.074,"end":9558.753,"text":"這樣子我們在訓練作戰能力還是只是集合演練我可以理解對於憲兵人員來說是不足的我們人數上是比較少所以去找了其他的軍種湊合去做教招可是這個大前提是不是要一一明確的告知他們戰時本來應該要動員的去處跟編制"},{"start":9562.196,"end":9568.1,"text":"因為這個事情發生之後我就有去找這一梯次的一些的交易員去詢問他們在這14天的這個叫招的狀況結果很多人告訴我們說呢他原本的專長跟他叫招的專長第一個完全不一樣"},{"start":9577.685,"end":9602.115,"text":"第二個他要來如果在戰時要去哪裡在做準備的地點也都有變動那在這種情況之下如果我們每一次叫招的時候能夠給的指令是不同的那我們就會很懷疑說現在這樣的叫招他有沒有符合我們國軍整體的叫招的作戰需求報委員跟你說明一下就是"},{"start":9603.305,"end":9618.576,"text":"因為我們之前並沒有這麼多的一年期的我們當然都知道可是你們今天上路了就要做好我們現在動員的優先順序就是常備部隊優先把它"},{"start":9619.477,"end":9640.768,"text":"尤其是把它鞭死而且是這個沒有啦 因為我時間有限你直接回答我的問題好不好我剛剛的問題很簡單就是你的這個軍種這樣子湊然後呢來的時候的地方你當初的專長到現在又改變然後又重學然後呢你要去的這個地點當初講的跟現在來教導的時候又不一樣這件事情要不要解決要不要討論啊怎麼處理啊"},{"start":9645.871,"end":9665.757,"text":"我們編時當然就是優先滿足然後再來是擴編動員然後他最後才是戰號梯隊那他這個這個後勛重心他是屬於擴編動員所以說編時選完的他剩下的並沒有那麼多那麼多原本是這個單位的原本是這個單位的所以說我們就擴大選員來充實這個擴編動員的這個部隊"},{"start":9670.618,"end":9698.26,"text":"也就是說跟委員報告啦現在就是說國安部的我這邊的政策很簡單就是說第一個指名指名的部分那是屬於最需要的指名的他不一定要原兵歸原委那接下來辨識動員的部分原則上原兵歸原委因為就是主戰部隊或者是這個常備部隊裡面他要辨識動員讓他形成激戰力擴編動員的部分我必須誠實的跟委員報告擴編動員的部分現在還有很多努力的空間尤其是要結合這一個"},{"start":9699.08,"end":9711.294,"text":"過去我們四個月我們現在看的是過去的四個月軍事訓練役他確實的訓練的不足以及未來一年期義務役如何能夠真實的編到擴編動員不管是首備旅的部分不管是後備旅的部分我們這些部分"},{"start":9713.797,"end":9728.745,"text":"手臂理的部分我們也要利用一年期一物一把它編實那後續還有一些相關的擴編動作所以這些部分我必須承認我們還有很多進步的空間這個進步的空間是源自於我們過去長期的四個月的軍事訓練的訓練不足"},{"start":9730.806,"end":9739.815,"text":"的情況之下所造成的而我們必須要利用一點時間去逐步的透過這個政策的改進然後執行的經時然後再能夠透過實戰化的訓練才能夠達到真正的後備的即戰力我同意您的說法但是因為現在教招已經上路了"},{"start":9746.921,"end":9757.794,"text":"這些招員也是已經都14天14天的都去了那如果是有這個狀況的話你們在一開始在召集大家的時候也應該在一開始的時候要把整體就是說現在面臨的這個情況跟大家說清楚因為很多的招員他是覺得很疑惑就是說我的編組我先前的專長跟我未來被分到的地點"},{"start":9767.625,"end":9790.919,"text":"那不斷的調動他自己都搞得很混亂了所以當然有努力的空間這個也需要時間我們都願意給國防部時間但對於實際上已經參與的叫招的招員而言這個部分還是需要跟他們做說明的最後因為我剛講三個部分待遇 部隊編制最後一個是個人裝備我們現在叫招的公發的野戰戰棚因為我時間不夠的關係我直接講"},{"start":9793.601,"end":9803.558,"text":"在175公分以上的身高躺在這個野戰帳篷裡面他的腳是無法伸直躺平的請問各位長官知道這件事情嗎"},{"start":9808.345,"end":9830.75,"text":"有修改的空間嗎沒有也可以直接告訴我我就是了解一下因為蠻多招員在反映說身高稍微你不要說比較高啦一般高的175公分的這個招員他們在公發的野戰帳篷裡面14天當中他這個整個過程齁那基本上都是腳沒有辦法躺平的這個狀態"},{"start":9835.575,"end":9856.227,"text":"市長這個部分我們下去了解完之後請你們下去了解好嗎因為針對這一梯次的因為有這個這個招員他提出薪資問題之後那當然我們對於這一次包含是他的薪資部隊編制以及他的個人裝備我們都去做了一個了解台灣男性成年平均的身高是172.1公分"},{"start":9858.248,"end":9874.545,"text":"如果175公分的男性他就沒有辦法在帳篷裡面躺平那我們的整個設備上面可能是有需要調整的所以這個部分麻煩齁我知道你們需要時間去調查了解但請給我一個時間然後給我確切的回覆好嗎因為我時間也不是很夠了"},{"start":9875.106,"end":9895.361,"text":"報告委員兩周之內 您可以好 謝謝 那這個叫招的部分部長 您也提到了有一些需要精進的空間那我們會給國防部時間但是招員向我們反映的事情我也有責任在這裡幫招員向我們的國防部去反映希望國防部能夠越做越好好 謝謝委員好 我們先休息五分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":10212.213,"end":10215.835,"text":"我們現在開始開會不好意思 招委已經站到台上了我們請部長請顧部長"},{"start":10235.217,"end":10256.434,"text":"是 陳偉業部長好 其實部長我們上個禮拜這個整個特別條例的審議的時間我們足足加上答辯總共有三天那我們把所有整體的軍購委制跟商購的部分它的重要性跟它的迫切性那其實不僅是跟在野黨來表示也是跟全國的國人同胞來表示"},{"start":10257.199,"end":10273.964,"text":"那我必須還是要強調因為在上一次的整個討論的過程當中因為我是這個會議的主持人比較沒有時間把這一個的重要性來去講述那其中有包含的幾個戰場上面的提示我覺得透過這次的集會也要跟全民來報告"},{"start":10275.154,"end":10288.137,"text":"那在討論過程中在黨有提到說在中東伊朗的無人機他突破以色列的鐵穹那對於伊朗的這個攻擊能力基本上他們是是肯定的"},{"start":10288.939,"end":10306.896,"text":"那一方面他們說以色列的這個防空鐵穹它是有缺陷的那這不就正代表著說我們的國防特別條例一定要儘速通過嗎因為如果它的無人載具是有用的那我們委資跟商購的三千多億元那就必須要被包括"},{"start":10307.777,"end":10327.533,"text":"如果以色列的鐵穹是有用的 那我們的T-Dome 台灣之盾也要被包裹如果以色列從中被無人載具所突破的 那我們必須要去精進所以不論如何軍購 偽製 商購 它都同時必須迫切要獲得的能力"},{"start":10328.334,"end":10343.395,"text":"那這三千多億裡面的無人載具其實也包含著這種不對稱戰力我們常常在看到烏克蘭戰場上看到的在伊朗戰場上看到的在以色列突破他們的防空系統上也看到的我們同時要具備矛跟盾不是矛與盾的這個問題而已"},{"start":10345.097,"end":10372.91,"text":"同時我們必須要把對方的他們的遠程投射火力必須要給予移除不然他們會持續對台灣輸入火力同時我們要有完整的防空體系所以這樣的狀況之下我們不能夠單純的去說過去因為這個軍購怎麼樣所以我們沒有辦法我們必須要來去把這個商購維持然後來去排除等等的那另外一方面我們也聽到這一檔也有提到一點就是說那美方的這個延宕怎麼辦那我們又不能夠給予罰款"},{"start":10374.051,"end":10387.55,"text":"那這不是代表說我們更要商購嗎因為在商購裡面是不是可以增加一些這個罰款或者是相關的這些條例是這樣子嗎部長因為你是法律專家商購的部分確實比較可以設計這個部分那因為經過"},{"start":10388.695,"end":10417.278,"text":"是屬於政府對政府那美國的軍購的這些內容它都是全球統一的所以剛剛關於有關違約的這個事項的這個罰則的部分當然就沒有辦法在軍購裡面做當然在商購裡面就可以設計我們可以在商購裡面設計嗎所以這一方面也回應在野黨的擔憂嘛就是說如果你覺得說那軍購會有延宕的話那我們可以在商購上面在條約的應該說在契約的設計裡面我們可以把它包含這些懲罰型的契約是不是可以這麼做是"},{"start":10418.559,"end":10443.655,"text":"那這樣的話我們是不是取得戰力的這一個方式就是更多更彈性那所以我們必須把這1.25兆我們要整體這七大項裡面把它我們不是說缺一不可而是說你把這個條例通過之後我們可以在預算裡面再來討論就剛剛其實在野黨委員有提到說有一些過去不管是在軍購或者是商購裡面的這些缺陷或者是有為師的部分"},{"start":10445.205,"end":10463.021,"text":"那我們就可以在預算上面來討論所以條例這一個架構過去之後未來在預算上面在野黨的委員們要嚴審這其實是本來就是在野黨委員的職權我們是絕對是尊重的而且我們認為這也是必要的這是對整體的國防也是會能夠增進的"},{"start":10464.284,"end":10490.536,"text":"但是如果沒有這個條例的話我們怎麼樣把這些預算包裹進去呢所以剛才也有提到預算法的這個第84條或者是緊急動用一部分來去補足說我們之前跟人家簽約軍購必須要先把這個第一部分的款項先給的部分那就代表說我們這些急迫性已經非常趕了所以在整個軍事條例裡面我們有看到國民黨的版本未來我們希望可以在朝野協商的時候再討論一下"},{"start":10491.636,"end":10504.55,"text":"就不必分成兩次軍購嘛因為你分成兩次條例的話那我們不是又要再重來一次又要重審一次條例這還是會有時間的那每一次的時間差我看是從這個發價書整個時間差大概是35天左右"},{"start":10506.892,"end":10535.189,"text":"那我們每次都要這樣子很被迫要快速的再去審條例再重新再去審條例不能在一個條例裡面就把這個整個包裹的辦法做完那未來在預算審查的時候是不是更加的有便利性是不是更加的能夠來去面對嚴峻的國防的挑戰所以這個部分我是想要先先把我上個禮拜沒有回應在野黨委員的時間想在這個地方再跟國人說明一下如果你覺得軍購它有延宕那我們把上購包含進去"},{"start":10535.689,"end":10561.944,"text":"如果你覺得商購裡面沒有軍購嚴謹跟可以輸出這種比較大型的這種只有這個透過政府跟政府能夠更完整的來包括的話那也請支持軍購不要把它一分為二所以這次我還是要強調這一個軍購案 商購案 委資案它是缺一不可但是它可以在預算的時候我們再把它的這個如果覺得哪一條或者是說哪一個款項認為說它有不穩之處或者是有不妥之處"},{"start":10564.085,"end":10572.456,"text":"那是可以來做商討的 是可以進監督的那如果沒有條例的話那我們接下來做的每件事情都會去拖慢那第二個部分我請這個權棟署署長"},{"start":10586.298,"end":10612.886,"text":"署長好 署長你們有包含這個管理災害這個防救的這種協調嘛對不對有協調好那是這樣我發覺到說我們現在不管是在我們的選區嘉義縣也好或者是各個縣市也好那每一個活動中心它在重大的不管是風災或者是天然災害的時候或者是未來可能我們不知道地區性衝突的時候它都會有扮演重要的角色因為必須它緊急狀況它要容納災民嘛"},{"start":10615.347,"end":10634.836,"text":"那我們遇到一個問題就是基本上我看過的所有的活動東西各個鄉鎮的大概十之八九都沒有發電機都沒有發電機就是柴油的也好這種緊急臨時的發電機那過去在風災的時候不管是雲嘉南地帶就大量的時間是停電的就是說甚至有十天十二天甚至十三天的"},{"start":10635.296,"end":10655.827,"text":"那這個狀況之下 活動中心裡面的這個發電機它是對整個穩定民心是很重要的那前天也是在這個場地我們跟這個烏克蘭的軍人還有一些相關的團體在這邊召開關於我們防禦任性的會議給我們一個很重要的建議就是"},{"start":10656.767,"end":10671.15,"text":"把發電機盡可能的配備在所有可能民生或者是重要基礎設施需要的地方那我現在看起來是沒有啦那當然這個群眾署可能是負責協調啦但是我覺得這個是一個極端重要的事情因為"},{"start":10672.071,"end":10695.954,"text":"一再的講這件事情 我們要講我們的韌性韌性最重要的是水跟電沒有水跟電就沒有辦法穩定民心沒有辦法穩定軍心那對於他們的士氣就會打擊烏克蘭是有冬天的 我們是有夏天的那這個東西都是很嚴峻的狀況希望全動數可以跨部會的盡快來去協調我們全台的幾個活動中心現在有百分之多少有發電機 簡易型的發電機至少要我們"},{"start":10696.514,"end":10713.531,"text":"先度過24到72小時好不好跟委員報告他現在就是說我們要有一個類似微電網這種概念的一個設計讓他能夠維生的系統能夠自我維持那學校的部分因為之前他有在上面有那個光電的一個設備"},{"start":10714.492,"end":10731.479,"text":"所以如果說他有一個發電機那他可以在白天有電的時候他可以然後用儲能的部分把它儲下來到晚上的時候那如果不足再用發電機如果因為一直用發電機的話這個我們都同意就是部長你講所以他就會有一個"},{"start":10732.439,"end":10747.512,"text":"利用這個再生能源利用儲能的系統利用一個發電機做一個自我維持的一個那我想這個部分在過去就我從在我國安會的時候就已經在討論那現在國安會也有在相關做這樣的一個討論不過"},{"start":10749.634,"end":10763.732,"text":"我必須說現在相關的這些設備,這個還需要第一個要有預算,第二個可能要做一些示範第三個就是說國民要逐步的能夠接受這樣子的一個"},{"start":10765.713,"end":10782.543,"text":"設施然後在那裡最主要就是儲能系統那一塊謝謝部長這個是我們必須要做的我們該做的那但是就是時間不會等人因為2014年發生第一次的這一個烏克蘭的衝突的時候那大家都沒有準備好那我們已經看到他們在做什麼樣的事情"},{"start":10784.004,"end":10809.362,"text":"摧毀關鍵基礎設施摧毀他們所有的電網有微電網當然是最好的如果沒有的話快速的應變的方式是什麼我們自己要先想清楚因為老實說上次我在我們西口鄉它是西口鄉公所的備用的發電機是完全沒有辦法用的在風災的時候所以點檢每一個各個鄉鎮公所或者是區公所或者是我們看重要的節點它一定要定期的去維護那最後部長我還是講一下"},{"start":10811.483,"end":10831.957,"text":"我們看到盧秀燕市長她首度表態她是支持通過八千億到一兆元那我認為在野黨的這一個重要的領袖開始有釋放出這樣的善意我是覺得這是一個進步那當然我們還是希望說能夠盡量包含所有的項目不是多少錢 重點是包含這七大項"},{"start":10832.958,"end":10853.767,"text":"那所以如果有機會的話我們是更希望能夠跟在野黨的領袖再去溝通不管是現任的領袖或者是卸任的領袖我們還是希望說這1.25兆它是條例預算的時候作為在野黨的立法委員當然是可以監督而且是可以強力監督的但是如果沒有這個條例沒有這1.25兆這七大項的話"},{"start":10856.408,"end":10871.631,"text":"那我覺得這可能對我們未來的國防會有一些挑戰也是很嚴峻的挑戰那其實時間是不會等的我們現在看到說各個區域的衝突不斷地在擴大當中甚至是在重疊當中那我們沒有辦法保證說下一個"},{"start":10872.532,"end":10886.653,"text":"我們會不會遇到同樣的這個衝突那如果遇到這樣的衝突的話我們有沒有準備好就包含我們剛剛跟權動署講的這些部分我們現在看起來還沒有盡快當然知道預算上面有它的問題但是電力還是重中之重再請"},{"start":10887.714,"end":10904.628,"text":"是 我想盧市長的講話裡面有一個是說不需要等待發酵數這個部分我覺得非常同意就這個部分是大家要能夠理解我們的整個建案成績第二個就是說盧市長好像也提到就是說不要只限於軍購也包括商購跟國內"},{"start":10906.242,"end":10927.232,"text":"採購的部分 我看到他的新聞上面專訪是這樣用的那我覺得這次也打造費用供應跟在地化產線讓我們有國航任性一個非常重要的部分我們希望建立在這個善意上面在這個部分我們希望也能夠來盡量跟各委員在持續溝通好 那我們就努力好不好 謝謝接下來請王逸川委員上台質詢"},{"start":10942.389,"end":10971.483,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們請顧部長請顧部長是 王偉部長就在我們這個執行的這個當下這個美國的參議院的跨黨派的議員現在正在總統府跟總統在討論相關的事情這個事情官部了解他們最主要執行的目的為何"},{"start":10974.189,"end":10998.976,"text":"我想參議員來訪這個跨黨派的這個來訪表示對我們的台灣的支持我想這個是幾乎是在我看起來是不分黨派那對我們要增強我們的這個國防的實力然後來在印太參與這個集體嚇阻然後增強我們的防衛的實力我想他們也應該是"},{"start":11000.136,"end":11026.678,"text":"要表達的就是要支持我們不斷的持續增強我們的防衛實力來共同在印太地區不要形成破口能夠有效的來維持印太區域以及台海的和平穩定好 那就在這一個同時國民黨的主席鄭麗文宣布4月7號要上北京去討論"},{"start":11029.299,"end":11051.611,"text":"這個不管什麼事情,東西就對了,有美國的議員來,國民黨說要串團去北京按照現在立法院的時程,這個禮拜三可能會召集國防特別條例的朝野協商因為大陣子拜五啊,大清明節、兒童節、放假嘛"},{"start":11052.509,"end":11078.961,"text":"所以最快本地啊 本地是後禮拜五你歡迎就你 就應該通過這個國防特別條例啦就這個大家要花時間就是這樣啊 國民黨剛才鄭麗雯又要撤退了 我說要緊要緊 這一定又拖下去啦我算過時程最快最快啦我們知道國民黨 國民黨去 董事會去 不可能這麼久沒去啦"},{"start":11080.121,"end":11107.504,"text":"這兩位一定會去,這兩位如果去,我這就反而二讀三讀,這我看困難我算過差不多四月十七,才有可能通過四月十七通過之後,你們就再上議程那如果按照這個時程,剛剛部長有提到這一個海馬斯這事情可能五月底,你們有一個退論的時間,差不多五月底你看這有越來越緊急"},{"start":11110.58,"end":11120.574,"text":"有沒有覺得這個事情,因為我們這個市長啊,說我們有算過差不多五月底嘛,市長這段時間啊,這麼辛苦,讓美國人在抄襲的事情,我看這個美國人,叫我們台灣人講話就是說,還給你最好的一道機會啦!"},{"start":11128.456,"end":11139.271,"text":"最後一個機會,你看這個五月底如果按照立法院這個時程國安部可能要花更多力,跟國民黨溝通,市長部長你有什麼看法"},{"start":11142.99,"end":11168.541,"text":"我們只能說有一些關鍵的包括能力的那個建構的項目還有那個上限的這個金額看起來是現在還沒辦法得到交集那我是期望能夠盡快進行這個協商的時候這個部分能夠有所交集那我還是在這邊呼籲說"},{"start":11170.562,"end":11184.712,"text":"條例的一兆兩千五百億這個條例案能夠通過那我們等預算報上來之後那大家再跟各位持續溝通那我們當然希望希望能夠在"},{"start":11186.806,"end":11204.158,"text":"最好能夠在4月就會有一個好的結果因為剛才你有說一般花架書的事情一開始兩邊如果有這個初步的討論那基本上立法院就有可能開始審議就開始變議帳議帳通過之後花架書才會來花架書來大家簽約納期大概是這樣的一個順序"},{"start":11213.064,"end":11227.292,"text":"那個建案的程序是先建案,建案之後我們把建案文件送行證,核定之後上議席等禮拜,禮拜之後立法院先審,審之後看過程當中,如果涉及軍購的部分"},{"start":11229.933,"end":11249.183,"text":"就是要看有智慧國會,如果有智慧國會預算可以公開,如果沒有智慧國會就改經營預算來審所以意思就是說,普通都是預算先過後,還有發價書你講的是過去的做法?正常的這次拖延的是國防部嗎?你不知道要上什麼條例?我們已經11月就上了"},{"start":11257.441,"end":11277.574,"text":"所以拖延的不是你們?我們是希望說,本來是希望說上禮拜之後就可以...那我這樣問好了,過去如果像你們11月送進來,過去啦,相關的這些東西,你差不多幾個月內,立法院這議程就會通過了?跟之前的經驗?這不一定"},{"start":11282.419,"end":11294.248,"text":"如果以前面那個海空戰力提升跟F16V BLOCK擺動的這兩個案子,通常在八月底左右條例送進來,十月底到十一月初之間,那個預算會通過?"},{"start":11298.745,"end":11315.778,"text":"這樣子看起來大概是三個多月接近四個月三四個月嘛對,條例加預算轉播啦轉播就是說從你們送進立法院開始大概四個月應該預算會完成然後後面這個相關包括發價書也是在那個後面"},{"start":11318.2,"end":11337.066,"text":"因為重點還是後面的預算書表,因為裡面有很多項目在過去審議的過程當中委員會非常認真地針對每一個項目去有項目有數量有金額嘛對,全部所以這次算李煥儀有拖到不過這個還是要請部長跟市長再多費點心不然沒辦法,你像今天盧秀恩說的,盧秀恩說的都假的"},{"start":11345.267,"end":11358.333,"text":"如秀恩說的,你們要收緊聽聽,我們上禮拜三、四天,到一個日子,我委員說八千億、百億、九千億,一個就沒有了,那些都是假的,那些都是以前假的,重點是他們八千億、百億、九千億,上禮拜三天,你們一個人說就沒有,一個人說,所以你們要預作一個準備,就是說立法院如果真的通過實行,只有三千八百億,看你們要怎麼樣,"},{"start":11372.401,"end":11377.524,"text":"施長你看你什麼,不是說回去你說,你如果叫美國人通電話的時候,人家說你不是跟我講的很多,要3800億,施長你這樣沒誠信這事情可能要想想看,我想你叫美國人講的時候,應該是一直拜託,說我們有些時間,我們國內有我們國內"},{"start":11394.854,"end":11420.424,"text":"審查的這個過程,快了快了快了,應該快了,我們要溝通可能有這樣的對話出現,但是真的同歸3800億這市長你跟美國人說話,我看有多麻煩這可能對我們國家,搞美國之間的誠信問題因為我知道你們很期待立法院趕快把這個事情"},{"start":11422.385,"end":11436.438,"text":"條例通過預算送進來然後審議然後完成這個預算的這個書表都通過之後你們才有辦法跟美國跟其他國家有後續的商討嘛應該是這樣啦好最後"},{"start":11440.589,"end":11468.114,"text":"請這個部長跟相關的單位,可以有人問到這個極致顧問的事情這個公司當然對在國安部相關的單位裡頭得標的案子只有兩件可是他們投標的案子不是只有兩件有到國安部相關的投標的,不是投標的他們也投了法務部的案子他們也投了這個榮總的案子"},{"start":11469.178,"end":11477.869,"text":"他們也投了高速公路局的案子這些案子的案名看起來啊大部分都跟資料庫有關"},{"start":11480.071,"end":11502.896,"text":"所以尤其國安部有些小額的 說一百萬一人 一百萬幾十萬的不要輕忽尤其後面如果要讀到我們裡面相關的資料庫的這個大家都要特別注意一下 因為你是國安部所以這一些在提醒裡面要特別的注意不要說這間公司啦 就是說"},{"start":11504.756,"end":11528.782,"text":"有時候你們用最低標啦,有時候有評選啦,看起來那個薪額對共和國相關的單位來說,也沒有多啦就不要輕忽,因為那個都會進去處理到資料庫的問題好,義雄謝謝好,謝謝,謝謝委員提醒好,謝謝接下來,請劉許廷委員上台質詢"},{"start":11535.521,"end":11535.966,"text":"謝謝主席 顧部長有請請顧部長"},{"start":11545.962,"end":11572.594,"text":"部長辛苦了我們今天的主題是年度軍事投資計畫跟財政負擔能力的平衡評估那當然這個在質詢前我特別看了一下這次這個部裡面的報告這個在裡面的篇幅裡面當然還是花了很大的篇幅跟空間去說明特別預算的一些必要性那也講了在公務預算編列的時候的一些困境這些東西本席都看到了但我想今天排這樣子的議程的重點應該是總體財政能力的負擔"},{"start":11573.835,"end":11600.236,"text":"所以今天把這個我覺得也不能單看特別預算嘛你應該是看整體台灣的國防支出嘛跟整體台灣的財政狀況有一個綜合性的評估這樣子比較容易能夠消除社會大眾的疑慮也能夠在各黨分歧的狀況之下去找到一定的共識我想部長應該不會反對我這樣的說法吧對 我們事實上在討論這個專案報告要怎麼寫的時候特別是就那個財政負擔能力的部分"},{"start":11601.451,"end":11620.394,"text":"我們國防部是提需求啦那最後其實要看那個主機總署是的所以我們也沒有辦法在這個報告裡面直接去寫得非常的清楚主機總署就只能給我多少問題是這不是我的權如果我講的那個那我國防部的需求我可以提"},{"start":11621.457,"end":11638.228,"text":"但是不見得能夠被實行這我完全理解國防部的危難之處這是我們過去這麼多年以來跟的一些狀況這我想在上禮拜的法案審查討論的時候其實也都有交換過意見我們都非常的清楚這次大家在討論這個特別預算等等的時候這個淡江的"},{"start":11638.988,"end":11652.358,"text":"大學的占研所的助理教授接種他有一篇投書大概把幾個警示我姑且講他是提醒善意的提醒做了一些提醒那今天就討論一下因為我蠻好奇國防部要怎麼樣回應這些問題他說"},{"start":11654.739,"end":11675.768,"text":"這個連年編列高額的採購特別預算雖然你用特別預算的方式可以直接避免去排擠一般的正式支出也就是說你面對主計總署的壓力但他同時會造成他提醒了三個副作用第一個叫做國防支出的結構失衡第二個是資源力的人力不足的問題第三個是舉債金額的增加我們就一個一個來探討我蠻好奇國防部對於這件事情的意見這個有關於國防"},{"start":11677.509,"end":11705.125,"text":"支出的結構失衡 概念是這樣子我們國防的支出就全部國防部正常預算大概就三大類人員維持費 人事費用作業維持費 也就是我武器要保養有的時候要合理的更新等等那第三個才是大家覺得比較常態比較直觀了解的就是說軍事的投資也就是說購買武器或者是投資新的產線等等大概分成是三塊那麼從國防部的公務預算的表格裡面預算中心整理的"},{"start":11706.306,"end":11728.571,"text":"大體上你可以看出來近年來是增加幅度這個我們都不討論了這個大家都很清楚的總是有必要的這個我們都理解但是你要看我今天想要點的是比例的問題也就是在過去的時候原則上這個作業維持費跟軍事投資費用它大概是一個平衡的狀況彼此之間的金額不會差太多原來越多的武器就代表你未來有越多的維護管養的這樣子的一個需求嘛那從"},{"start":11729.711,"end":11755.509,"text":"過去這幾年國防部的公務預算來講它是一個相對平衡 相對穩定的一個狀態好 但現在問題來了我們今天提出了新的所謂的特別條例這一照2500億當然它是分年來編列那當然這表示著我們未來武器的採購會大幅的增加那麼武器採購的增加但我沒有看到目前國防部針對武器增加之後未來的作業維持費用的增加做出財政的預估跟說明"},{"start":11756.329,"end":11779.453,"text":"所以我想這也是這個接種教授有提到的這個會不會造成支出結構的嚴重失衡呢因為現在看起來是一比一啊可是你如果把未來好幾年大概都要加一千多億兩千億的軍事投資的預算那麼這一比一它可能變成一比1.5甚至變成1.2就是大量的採購但是作為維持費我們現在看不到未來的變化趨勢嘛對不對那麼請問這一段國防部的說明是什麼呢"},{"start":11779.878,"end":11795.851,"text":"那委員我們這個要跟委員報告一下接種教授他裡面提的資訊裡面因為他沒有辦法拿到我們完整的沒關係我都理解你們就回應吧那太除舊裝備是節約我們作為非常重要的一環我舉這次的海馬斯為例"},{"start":11796.932,"end":11820.602,"text":"海馬士是準備汰除目前我們現役的M118吋流自走炮跟M109A2自走炮那目前這兩個自走炮它的那個年度的作為費的額度都已經佔了相當高的部分到時候等到我們海馬士進來這兩個舊型裝備之後汰除之後就可以節約大量的那個作為費"},{"start":11821.963,"end":11842.151,"text":"那目前當然我們要解決的主要還是航財的問題因為作為費裡面因應中共敵情威脅的提升航財的消耗事實上一直在提升我們也有一個完整的規劃在我們新機進來之後我們會做一個調控機制讓作為費能夠維持在一個比較可控的狀況"},{"start":11842.791,"end":11870.46,"text":"您今天質詢的時間其實是非常短的當然也沒有辦法透過三言兩語把話講清楚我的意思是說我想今天大家想要看到的報告裡面其實是包含一個相對長期的作業維持費就是你如果有合理增加的狀況那你如何避免這一段去做正式的排擠如果你講因為有部分的太儲所以你可以有做部分的節約你也要有一個年度非常清楚的表格也就是說預估未來的你特別預算都是要大家授權八年為這樣子的一個規模這本身就很有爭議的事情"},{"start":11871.4,"end":11896.992,"text":"如果這部分沒有辦法說明清楚 那疑慮就會在所以我今天講的是善意提醒 我想教授寫這個也是善意提醒我們希望看到 會後你就提供吧這八年來有關於作業維持費 未來八年的財政預估哪些項目增加了 哪些項目減少了 每年的數字大概是怎麼樣會不會排擠到 我軍事投資特別預算沒關係啊可是作業維持往上 你是不是還是會面對我國防部扣打不夠啊 主計總書又有意見然後造成一些執行上的困難"},{"start":11897.592,"end":11902.968,"text":"是不是可以請國防部在會後提供完整八年有關人員維持、作業維持跟軍事熟知的完整的財務規劃報告"},{"start":11904.344,"end":11930.219,"text":"提送資料沒問題那給我10秒鐘跟委員報告可以的請委員看一下這個表裡面114年度的作業維持費是1476億是的那我跟委員報告115年我們的作業維持費額度是1990億我們成長的幅度已經差不多34%所以我們在增加軍事投資的同時我們一定會去同步考量作業維持費的預算需求這個先跟委員做個報告"},{"start":11931.019,"end":11946.519,"text":"對 所以我才講這未來8年增加的不會只是1.25兆或者是不管到最後通過多少數字這個相關的採購的增加一定會上升嘛採購支出會上升作業維持費上升這8年的預估也是要很明確的這樣說明才會清楚這是本期的這個提醒"},{"start":11946.94,"end":11969.598,"text":"報告委員我可以借也是一樣十秒鐘可以沒問題請我們在每一年上五年的兵力整建計畫的時候同時我們會上五年的兵力汰除的規劃我們也考慮到這個橫平性它要如何利用作為費來支撐我們後續新制武器裝備而且現在的武器裝備它的能力可能都比傳統的武器裝備它的效率可能會更高對所以我覺得你資料提供越完整它其實是有助於溝通的好不好"},{"start":11970.078,"end":11997.461,"text":"第二個他的質疑當然就是有關於志願役人力嘛因為新的編裝新的專業新的什麼但我們的編線筆這個是老問題了嘛待遇增加如果大家又各執一執也沒意思但我想他的質疑不無道理我們也希望國防部在人力調度的方面比如說之前無人機加急卡了好久對不對這些問題你要能夠做減少啊現在如果真的有這個特別預算的編列新式武器的再支出我們的人力的部分要怎麼樣來跟上呢是不是可以請部長簡單回答"},{"start":11998.573,"end":12025.59,"text":"我們人力的部分在114年度來看我們的邊縣比已經達到80%然後我們資源人數增加了4000人然後我們的流運力也增加我想這個部分我們會來持續來努力那另外也跟委員報告我們現在因為實施一年期的義務役嘛所以一年期的義務役對我們整個相關人力的充實也很重要那當然義務役的部分我們比較有一個"},{"start":12027.031,"end":12045.318,"text":"長時間的一個從事一個從這一個新訓到駐地到基地到這個聯合作戰的這個能力的整個訓練所以這個能力的部分在EWE他們在他們一般高峰會在他們大學畢業的那一年會形成一個比較穩定的EWE的來源"},{"start":12045.798,"end":12058.143,"text":"所以我們一方面增加志願役的人力,志願役高端的人才,一方面我們對於151要做一個充足的訓練。當然志願役也要做完全實戰化的訓練,所以我們不斷的結合。"},{"start":12061.665,"end":12077.297,"text":"這兩部分那我們希望來因應我們持續未來人員的需求這個本席一路以來都是主張啦就是說隨著戰爭形態的改變專業性的提升科技元素的導入等等未來的專業性其實是很重要的所以志願役我認為是絕對不可或缺的"},{"start":12077.677,"end":12096.504,"text":"在這一段為什麼我們那麼強化那麼強調相關的待遇的一個提升而且是總體的大幅的提升其實不外乎就是希望國防部有充足的人員那當然這我們未來有機會討論這個人力擴充的專案報告的時候我們再來詳細的去談幾個方向再來跟部長來討論那我們就一樣這提醒這人力的部分請國防部如果可以的話你也可以提供一下報告啦"},{"start":12096.704,"end":12125.954,"text":"就是說我配合你的這個軍購你現在的這個很大的這樣一個構想之後我的人員這個相關的配套措施我是希望國防部可以提供更多的資料來以利說明那最後一個部分當然是有關於財政支出的部分像我們前一段時間通過的這個關稅因應國際歧視的特別預算裡面它其實還有一部分是可以用所謂的稅計剩餘來做處理那當然國防部也講這幾年經濟成長率不錯啊等等收稅都不錯了那現在如果按照院版這1.25兆我們舉債的比例大概會是多少"},{"start":12131.797,"end":12148.823,"text":"在下一期在外交局外交委會報告的時候其實包含財政部跟主席同事都有說明我們目前的國家的稅率剩餘大概應該沒有剩多少大部分可能就還是要透過舉債的但是會遵守財政具體法相關規範來辦理"},{"start":12150.174,"end":12168.05,"text":"所以意思是說特別條例裡面已經就已舉在的這個額度還是不能夠總量不能夠超過那個公共債務法的相關的規定已經有在這裡面有做過因為我們一照2514分成八年不是一年編列所以這還在我們可以符合財政紀律的這個"},{"start":12170.712,"end":12189.313,"text":"這個我要提醒一下部長我們從再大一點的角度來總體考量其實舉債它到最後它也是會有互相排擠的狀況因為很多的重大正式支出比如說國家的重大建設或者是今天也許我們要因應少子女化還有大額的投資這些到了最後它都有可能也要思考透過舉債的手段來做處理嘛"},{"start":12190.073,"end":12211.659,"text":"那同樣如果今天舉債的額度被大量的佔用的時候它到最後還是一樣它只是排擠的項目不一樣以前叫公務預算的排擠或者是特別預算的排擠甚至未來是債務的排擠這也是未來大家會關心的一點這就是為什麼本席今天特別去強調整個今天的主題也好或者是本席今天質詢的主題也好就是希望它有一個長期的總體的財政評估包含舉債包含人員"},{"start":12213.533,"end":12234.658,"text":"增補包含作業維持這樣一併的清楚的又說明才比較容易讓大家比較能夠接受國防預算大幅增加的狀況當時提八年依照兩千五百億的時候就已經有確實在院裡面就有做過這樣的評估因為部長你講的就只是講說我們會符合財政紀律法的總體規定不夠詳細嘛所以我講逐年的數字嘛"},{"start":12234.858,"end":12254.763,"text":"總要有一些詳細的數字來做一些討論跟別人到底每一年會佔用多少會不會大額的增加如何從其他的地方檢審這些其實都是解決事情的手段跟方式那國防部提供的越詳細大家才有機會比較容易收束這個大家現在是立場不一樣啊但我們要想辦法解決問題嘛所以在收束共識的過程之中提供很多資料我想是很有必要的"},{"start":12255.445,"end":12274.263,"text":"報告委員這邊補充一下如果說牽扯到國家總體財政包含了以前年齡稅率剩餘以及取債的額度多少我想公安部這邊可能沒辦法提供比較具體的資料因為我們可以就1.25兆的部分我們每年我們可能會跟主席總書做個說明看看他那邊能不能做個"},{"start":12274.804,"end":12289.97,"text":"我們做一下研究我想這是國家大事嘛這麼大一筆的支撐跨部會的合作總是有必要的對不對我們會跟主委總書討論討論一下嘛因為每一年的狀況都要預估嘛他們會有一個有一個有一個概算好歹要有預估的東西啦"},{"start":12291.03,"end":12307.513,"text":"那我再提醒一下因為剛剛很多委員在質詢的時候都有提到比如說發價書啊等等這我們在討論的過程中其實本席有講得非常的清楚嘛我一直在問國防部的是你們自己有心理有把握的時間表示什麼對吧那當然我因為不為難大家所以你講這總會有一個溝通的一些過程但是我也提醒啦就善意提醒嘛"},{"start":12307.893,"end":12335.464,"text":"如果這些東西時間表可以非常的明確有更清楚的一些輪廓的時候它其實也是有助於達成共識的我覺得今天我們就不要再講立場了但是我們要一起想方法所以本期今天提出的一些這樣的要求希望國防部盡快的整理相關財政負擔的這樣子的一個報告來有助於未來法案也好預算也好的討論可以嗎我們財政負擔的部分我們跟主席總署來討論好不好OK好那就麻煩國防部希望大家可以大家可以最終可以達成共識啦謝謝謝謝"},{"start":12337.689,"end":12343.251,"text":"好 謝謝接下來請賴氏寶委員上台質詢謝謝主席有請國務部的顧部長請顧部長"},{"start":12361.897,"end":12367.299,"text":"是 賴委員部長 這個說這兩天有美國幾個參議員來你又跟他們見面吧我我因為要上綠花園所以總是要跟他們見面啊有通知你嘛 對不對"},{"start":12385.038,"end":12401.807,"text":"計劃是有 但是因為這個行程上面的衝突喔 可是他來幾天總是會見到你啊我就所以問這個就是說他來不要只有說就叫我們通過什麼錢錢錢貨貨貨 我沒有交貨啊我就跟你舉例啊我們向美國採購976架彈簧刀300型的無人機"},{"start":12413.066,"end":12421.255,"text":"按照規劃114年要全數交貨去年底全數交貨現在已經是今年的第一季了總金額多少錢啊 總金額55億55億啊"},{"start":12429.266,"end":12432.448,"text":"55億到現在為止一價都沒有交你來跟人家說不要來只有push我們要給錢你要push到給貨啊跟委員報告你這裡講的那個台灣刀300是685價976價是含RTX600的M那個已經交了那個已經完成交運了那剩下來是台灣刀300的這個部分台灣刀300沒有交嘛"},{"start":12459.446,"end":12464.248,"text":"對 但LRT600的部分已經291架已經交完了好 那所以剩下600多架剩下300的685685架沒有交 什麼時候可以交完"},{"start":12476.694,"end":12492.319,"text":"在第二季第二季什麼時候啊第二季從四月開始到六月到底什麼時候目前我們持續的掌握確切就是第二季那我要跟委員報告他其實所謂沒有交貨他是因為我前面也跟召委報告過了"},{"start":12494.119,"end":12510.848,"text":"這些案子裡面他都會隨著迭代幫我們去做一個晶片跟相關軟體還有飛超模組的更新以符合這些避免遭受到戰場上的干擾對啦 這個不管什麼理由都是沒有交卷啦現在大家老百姓只在意這桿子就說來 今天要叫人來騎它的全案期程是到116年所以基本上目前都還是算在整個的計畫節點裡面你講的來 我看還有"},{"start":12523.214,"end":12536.659,"text":"海軍委託國內造船廠建造兩艘的輕型巡航艦的原型艦本來規劃115年要交捐現在呢 美國核A3已經告訴我們要delay了跟委員報告 這是我們國艦國造要delay了但主要就是因為那個主機的部分"},{"start":12550.559,"end":12563.293,"text":"主機有問題嘛因為我們國建國造都會碰到一些有關這個比如說像主機啊這些關鍵的設備這個計畫總共是多少錢啊您是說這個清洗房的園園建嗎"},{"start":12572.303,"end":12588.84,"text":"總共是245億245億喔 是什麼時候開始交貨不管跟美國買跟自己做都可以啦什麼時候可以交貨報告委員 這是因為主機延誤那其他的部分主機延誤什麼時候可以到貨主機延誤 那目前整個交件是在116年"},{"start":12590.922,"end":12596.326,"text":"主機是跟美國買的嘛對不對是的是嘛所以我講的沒錯啊還是會跟美國買的啊那就是這次美國參議員來但是說他可能對我們軍國問題啊這個會有些意見等等之類的但是我們我們要講一個東西說我都給你錢了你貨沒有給我啊一直delay delay剛才那個不管是"},{"start":12613.92,"end":12617.262,"text":"900多價 600多價 說是600多價也是沒有給貨然後這個也是主機沒有貨 還是一樣啊還是美國不給我們貨那個 部長 我剛一開始為什麼問你這個就是參議員還 你一定有機會跟他見面要不要跟他反映一下我們立法院的意見在這裡啊"},{"start":12633.393,"end":12648.477,"text":"跟委員報告 您剛剛講的那個台灣刀300跟ATIS600的這個部分剛剛已經說明了ATIS600它提前交易那台灣刀300還沒有過這個交易的節點然後它還要幫我們做迭代的更新 然後軟體的更新節點沒有過是沒有過 可是本來你規劃114年就要全數交貨啦"},{"start":12655.245,"end":12674.471,"text":"有沒有報告你這個要先說明一下本來就這樣寫這兩個案子事實上是預約時間就已經往後延他知會他知會國會之後給發價書跟預約的時間往後延那就產製的整個進度而言如果您去看一下那個時間他並沒有產製進度落後的狀況來部長"},{"start":12678.651,"end":12699.374,"text":"然後Artist 600他已經提前交了我也要報告一下相對的委員也不會希望我們接收已經過了那些迭代的舊的東西所以基本上這些我們在議約是非常嚴謹透過美軍來幫我們跟廠商做要求相關的迭代的更新"},{"start":12700.015,"end":12704.258,"text":"對啊 不管怎麼樣 我們就是發現到說你來這裡就一直要push要預算通過 可是呢你該倒過來跟參議員 你給他反應一下我就是部長 一開頭我就問你嘛你一定會跟參議員見面嘛 對不對 會吧"},{"start":12716.411,"end":12729.963,"text":"應該會我剛剛已經講了原規劃是要見面那後來因為這個一方面是立法院的行程一方面有後續的他們的訪問的時間的緊迫我想我們會由這個副部長來幫我來來"},{"start":12734.495,"end":12753.324,"text":"來進行相關行程的這個就是你沒辦法跟他們見面但是但是 副部長跟他們見面就這個意思 是不是呃 我國防部的部門是由副部長好 那就拜託你交代副部長跟他講一下我們的東西要趕快給我們啦要不然的話你在這裡很難撐下去啊對不對然後你 你今天又講了你說1.25兆欸 副部長按照你的意思是1.25兆一毛錢都不能刪喔"},{"start":12764.295,"end":12771.997,"text":"我們國安部的立場認為這個都是一向的都不能少我們看幾個喔 李文宗前退伍外的副主委他就講了把那個無人機的這一部分通通放到年度預算所以9000億左右今天盧秀燕市場講了9000億、8000億到一兆"},{"start":12790.15,"end":12805.585,"text":"盧市長好像說希望把無人機放進來好啦 這個可能不同的角度啦那我的看法就是三千八加N其實盧市長講的跟曾立文講的沒有什麼矛盾啦因為我們是三千八加N所以你要告訴拜託你告訴胡部長"},{"start":12811.699,"end":12836.814,"text":"請參議員轉告美國那裡 趕快出現NN不見得是發酵數N就是說 能不能美國政府正式都要announce要第二批對台灣這個軍售 140億美金他只要這個聲音出來 行政部門出來國會通過 發酵數晚一點沒有關係 我們都支持這時候 將8000例到1兆是OK的"},{"start":12839.508,"end":12850.056,"text":"是OK的這個老實講大家都有公約書為了這個國家好為了我們提升我們整體防衛能力其實這個部長不要一定要踩那麼緊啊"},{"start":12855.1,"end":12866.662,"text":"因為好不容易才有收斂收斂到八千億、九千億你要討厭啦不然不然這樣你給他動一動說唉唷這個不過我相信你嘴巴講啦心裡不是這樣想啦我在猜啦你心裡能夠通過九千億你就要討厭啦你就很高興才對啦就是說Morning Happy啦九千億一天澳造你嘴巴講講我會了解啦"},{"start":12881.136,"end":12885.599,"text":"我們還是希望能夠通過1.25兆好 謝謝委員好 謝謝接下來請林倩琦 林倩琦 林倩琦委員不在請洪孟愷委員上台質詢好 主席謝謝 麻煩請顧部長請顧部長"},{"start":12917.392,"end":12943.11,"text":"好 部長好本席一向的立場就是支持我們中華民國不管是國軍 國防部但把錢花在刀口上又買到我們真的合用的武器 設備 系統 裝置這點大家應該是都一樣的想法但今天本席不禁看到有個媒體報導講是說我們的機場安全AI影像分析系統而且那媒體是用很大的很聳動的標題啊"},{"start":12944.431,"end":12960.599,"text":"大翻車然後又說我們花了四千四百萬變成是豪華的擺設我想先請教一下部長我想今天上午這樣子應該也都已經有初步做個了解了嘛第一到底這個系統是什麼時候驗收完畢我想請空軍來簡單回答"},{"start":12962.628,"end":12990.547,"text":"委員好 我是工進參謀長 跟委員報告這個原起還是跟委員報告一下我們在111年11月25號的時候E2K這架兩五動三號機這個媒體都已經寫了我們就是因為這樣所以說才要去編列4400萬來購AI系統那立法院也支持所以說去年的8月招標也絕標了所以我們大家都理解但我現在要確認的是說什麼時候驗收完畢在12月10號的時候去年12月10號驗收完畢去年12月10號驗收完畢"},{"start":12992.968,"end":13008.115,"text":"我看到媒體報導空軍一直強調跟回應就是已經驗收完畢了柯委員強調的不是驗收不驗收完畢這個事情那有沒有報導講的這些事情持續的提升悲哀這是空軍第一次運用這樣的一個系統導入"},{"start":13009.515,"end":13026.273,"text":"能夠提升飛安降低飛安的機率來減輕人力的負荷所以說我們在去年也是用創新的方式來請廠商設計因為以前從來沒有人這樣做過這個系統它是第一次結合攝影機跟一些大數據演算國外也沒有沒有"},{"start":13026.813,"end":13049.78,"text":"國外也沒有沒有那我們自己去想了一個系統然後我們自己去想設計一個方法我們是希望提升飛安提升飛安的這個我們跟美國那麼好美國他們的一些經驗沒有讓我們來做一個分享美國也沒有用AI這個國企真的差異很大他們在跑道上面就是機場裡面連飛撫室就是說在機場裡面監控的人都沒有這個"},{"start":13051.48,"end":13066.364,"text":"國情真的大不同我們在飛安的角度上來講是比較嚴謹的今天看到的是我們要為人民的納稅錢來把關所以說我們現在想要強調的跟確認的地方是到底有沒有如同報導這樣講的4400萬好像變成是豪華設備豪華裝備報告委員沒有驗收完畢之後有沒有再出包"},{"start":13071.936,"end":13097.094,"text":"驗收完畢還是有一些狀況還是有一些狀況比在驗收初期少了很多我們到目前為止什麼時候狀況現在狀況解除了沒因為報導裡面還有提到是有我們的群組賴群組的對話賴群組的對話是不是這樣的因為這個會造成今天的梅波事件是因為他在設計的初期因為他系統會警告說期貨架沒放所以人員就要趕快拿起來看"},{"start":13097.754,"end":13119.727,"text":"那因為他的判斷會因為天氣的不同下雨天陰霾天霧天他會判斷會有誤差所以說我們也是一直在教育這個系統讓他能夠收集更多的數據什麼長你這樣講的好像你是廠商的代表我們現在要要的是空軍弟兄的安全為第一優先順位嗎是你自己剛就一開始開宗明義就講說2021年因為跑出"},{"start":13122.429,"end":13144.556,"text":"跑道的一個事故而造成說我們想要精進這個本席完全理解也同意啊所以我們現在才講就是說現在這個系統有沒有把錢花在刀口上以及能不能實際運用那你剛剛本席問的他在12月10號這個報導你有看到嗎都已經通過在12月10號已經通過就是就已經通過還是持續出包這也是你剛剛講的嘛本席剛剛要問的地方是說這個群組裡面對話是不是真的"},{"start":13148.993,"end":13165.78,"text":"其實裡面有些粗暴是我們的人員不熟悉系統去按錯東西粗暴的我們的人員也有問題在裡面所以說我們不斷的教育系統也教育我們的操作人員參謀長 冷息怎麼越來越覺得你是在我好像在跟廠商代表講話"},{"start":13168.001,"end":13169.963,"text":"今天一個系統我們要用結果反而變成媒體報導講是說讓人眼辨識如果說我們這樣依照沒有這個系統引入的時候我們用肉眼辨識人眼辨識可能還不會出現這個問題"},{"start":13182.52,"end":13199.726,"text":"那今天這個系統來不是增加我們的安全反而變成是我們的人要double check要兩倍的時間是AI系統先判斷了之後然後之後我們人再判斷確認AI判斷有沒有問題那這樣子就變成是一個人做兩份工啦這個我們會再繼續的改善我們今天"},{"start":13202.869,"end":13228.45,"text":"參謀長我今天就是看到媒體報導我也不知道說為什麼媒體今天報導會再挑今天國防會教委員會有國防部來質詢的但是重點這已經不是冰凍三尺非一日之寒啊那如果說裡面的群組的對話也都是真的我們也看到甚至報導直接就講是說我們有負責的中將還是負責的這個上校直接打電話嚴正的要求系統不能再出這樣的包"},{"start":13229.19,"end":13250.627,"text":"我們會持續的要求 其實這樣子我是肯定這樣的態度是因為我們付了錢我們就應該把錢花在刀口上就沒有想到不是那就你今天跟我一直在講你還講到反而是推給我們一直到二月單月都還是有持續請廠商來一直持續的在是嘛那現在所以說你也承認現在這個廠商設計這個系統到目前為止還沒有辦法百分之百可以運用的良好"},{"start":13251.428,"end":13270.663,"text":"所以我們原本是希望能夠取代人力我們原本是希望能夠精進安全結果現在變成是沒有辦法取代人力我們的人還要double check那你不覺得這樣子反而沒有把錢花在刀口上嗎我們會持續的檢討這個案子因為在整個大數據AI的過程中我們必須要持續的去教育這個系統"},{"start":13273.445,"end":13300.43,"text":"如果說可以出包連剛剛參謀長都已經承認了就出包完驗收完之後都還有持續有狀況那驗收他也是怎麼驗收的因為這個系統是第一次我們建置這個系統不管第一次第二次如果說他沒有辦法上限率合格率沒有辦法那麼大你就不應該讓他驗收啊那以前可以怎麼做以前都是用人眼辨識 肉眼辨識那你為什麼急著要在去年的時候來驗收"},{"start":13302.435,"end":13329.127,"text":"按照合約是12月2號驗收這不是按照合約你的合約是到今年的年底啊你的合約到今年年底如果說換言之你到今年年底以前驗收都可以但重點在於是我們花了錢怎麼會變成是買到這樣子的一個系統而現在嘉義還在做對不對也是同一個廠商同一個系統是不是嘉義的水上靶場是嘛水溪靶場"},{"start":13331.061,"end":13341.01,"text":"水上水溪靶場是靶場的AI這個是另外一個也是同一個廠商同一套系統同一套系統是那會不會有一樣的狀況我們會持續的檢討是來部長"},{"start":13348.371,"end":13363.251,"text":"本席講了那麼多其實我們都站在的是你要用我們支持你要錢給錢但花錢要買到好東西可以減輕我們官兵弟兄負擔跟提升我們官兵弟兄安全而不是變成說"},{"start":13364.517,"end":13378.699,"text":"好像我們自己我們變成是我們來幫廠商測試剛剛參謀講到這第一次那結果我們幫廠商測試我們拿我們的官兵弟兄當成是試驗品 實驗室等到我們測試良好之後他可以再賣給其他人是不是"},{"start":13381.442,"end":13393.37,"text":"所有的AI他都會有要有一個自主學習的一個過程所以我想我們給我們的廠商變成是自主學習的實驗場我們買的不就是要已經是可以上線的AI作為一個輔助的一個系統那麼他會不斷的進進我們當初的標案講的是我們要的是一個學習的系統還是是可以合格使用的系統"},{"start":13410.121,"end":13437.92,"text":"就這麼簡單我們的標案書到底是怎麼寫的你4400萬如果跟我講是說你們是什麼中研院中科院還在學習還在什麼研發那我不怪你啊但如果說你今天的標案書跟我們講是說你是要一個合格上線的系統那就不應該存在還有所謂的學習啊那個反應是在系統第一次跟第二次驗收不合格的時候我們的操作人員反應的那現在已經大幅的降低這樣的一個狀況"},{"start":13441.209,"end":13461.081,"text":"來啦 部長一次的意外都不應該發生我們現在還沒有意外真的是我們中華民國弟兄官兵福大命大那我是不是可以要求國防部這邊針對這一個部分給外交國防委員會跟本席一個檢討報告可以多久時間可以拿出來"},{"start":13463.103,"end":13478.949,"text":"看我們大概三個禮拜嗎 三個禮拜 本席等你三個禮拜我再一次強調 這個廠商我也不認識 這個報導我是今天看到但我覺得一個報導用一個很嚴厲的言辭大翻車 4400萬變豪華設備這對我們官兵弟兄也是一種羞辱"},{"start":13483.826,"end":13491.951,"text":"如果說不是事實也要予以駁斥但更重要的是我們把錢花在刀口上這才是我們共同應該要一起的態度以上 謝謝"},{"start":13500.241,"end":13511.971,"text":"創新小組推薦的廠商因為我們的國軍不能拿來當成試驗我們剛才提到了有些產品它並不是成熟的不是我們提供相關的試驗資訊"},{"start":13514.293,"end":13535.326,"text":"這樣的數據資料尤其是AI它是需要它成熟以後再來賣給我們我們買的產品應該是這個如果使用者都已經認為它會造成悲安的風險可能對他們來說生死一瞬間所以這個部分我們強烈要求一定要嚴格的去執行也謝謝部長要提供的那個檢討報告"},{"start":13537.407,"end":13565.24,"text":"那接下來請羅明財 羅明財委員不在請葉元芝 葉元芝 葉元芝委員不在已登記質詢的委員除了不在場以外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議有黃人委員提出書面質詢請列入記錄並刊登公報委員書面及口頭質詢未及答覆的部分或要求補充資料者請國防部兩週內以書面答覆委員有約定期限者從期鎖定"},{"start":13566.3,"end":13568.933,"text":"本日會議到此結束 散會謝謝大家"}]}},{"id":"168040","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168040","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d0265d86f2f18c67920a04fecb9c5c067f5bc5cff238b3bed9b660ba8c2013ea0c81ff874c24f3695ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"11:25:34 - 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其實部長我們上個禮拜這個整個特別條例的審議的時間我們足足加上答辯總共有三天那我們把所有整體的軍購委制跟商購的部分它的重要性跟它的迫切性那其實不僅是跟在野黨來表示也是跟全國的國人同胞來表示"},{"start":21.26,"end":38.038,"text":"那我必須還是要強調因為在上一次的整個討論的過程當中因為我是這個會議的主持人比較沒有時間把這一個的重要性來去講述那其中有包含的幾個戰場上面的提示我覺得透過這次的集會也要跟全民來報告"},{"start":39.215,"end":52.19,"text":"那在討論過程中在黨有提到說在中東伊朗的無人機他突破以色列的鐵穹那對於伊朗的這個攻擊能力基本上他們是是肯定的"},{"start":53.001,"end":70.977,"text":"那一方面他們說以色列的這個防空鐵穹它是有缺陷的那這不就正代表著說我們的國防特別條例一定要儘速通過嗎因為如果它的無人載具是有用的那我們委制跟商購的三千多億元那就必須要被包括"},{"start":71.818,"end":91.594,"text":"如果以色列的鐵穹是有用的 那我們的T-DOM 台灣之盾也要被包括如果以色列從中被無人載具所突破的 那我們必須要去精進所以不論如何軍購 偽製 商購 它都同時必須迫切要獲得的能力"},{"start":92.395,"end":107.617,"text":"那這三千多億裡面的無人載具其實也包含著這種不對稱戰力我們常常在看到烏克蘭戰場上看到的在伊朗戰場上看到的在以色列突破他們的防空系統上也看到的我們同時要具備矛跟盾不是矛與盾的這個問題而已"},{"start":109.139,"end":137.014,"text":"同時我們必須要把對方的他們的遠程投射火力必須要給予移除不然他們會持續對台灣輸入火力同時我們要有完整的防空體系所以這樣的狀況之下我們不能夠單純的去說過去因為這個軍購怎麼樣所以我們沒有辦法我們必須要來去把這個商購維持然後來去排除等等的那另外一方面我們也聽到這一檔也有提到一點就是說那個美方的這個延宕怎麼辦那我們又不能夠給予罰款"},{"start":138.095,"end":151.611,"text":"那這不是代表說我們更要商購嗎因為在商購裡面是不是可以增加一些這個罰款或者是相關的這些條例是這樣子嗎部長因為你是法律專家商購的部分確實比較可以設計這個部分那因為經過"},{"start":152.759,"end":181.42,"text":"是屬於政府對政府那美國的軍購的這些內容它都是全球統一的所以剛剛關於有關違約的這個事項的這個罰則的部分當然就沒有辦法在軍購裡面做當然在商購裡面就可以設計我們可以在商購裡面設計嗎所以這一方面也回應在野黨的擔憂嘛就是說如果你覺得說那軍購會有延宕的話那我們可以在商購上面在條約的應該說在契約的設計裡面我們可以把它包含這些懲罰型的契約是不是可以這麼做是"},{"start":182.601,"end":207.719,"text":"那這樣的話我們是不是取得戰力的這一個方式就是更多更彈性那所以我們必須把這1.25兆我們要整體這七大項裡面把它我們不是說缺一不可而是說你把這個條例通過之後我們可以在預算裡面再來討論就剛剛其實在野黨委員有提到說有一些過去不管是在軍購或者是商購裡面的這些缺陷或者是有為師的部分"},{"start":209.266,"end":227.077,"text":"那我們就可以在預算上面來討論所以條例這一個架構過去之後未來在預算上面在野黨的委員們要嚴審這其實是本來就是在野黨委員的職權我們是絕對是尊重的而且我們認為這也是必要的這是對整體的國防也是會能夠增進的"},{"start":228.325,"end":254.597,"text":"但是如果沒有這個條例的話我們怎麼樣把這些預算包裹進去呢所以剛才也有提到預算法的這個第84條或者是緊急動用一部分來去補足說我們之前跟人家簽約軍購必須要先把這個第一部分的款項先給的部分那就代表說我們這些急迫性已經非常趕了所以在整個軍事條例裡面我們有看到國民黨的版本未來我們希望可以在朝野協商的時候再討論一下"},{"start":255.697,"end":270.355,"text":"就不必分成兩次軍購嘛因為你分成兩次條例的話那我們不是又要再重來一次又要重審一次條例這還是會有時間的那每一次的時間差我看是從這個發價書整個時間差大概是35天左右"},{"start":270.956,"end":299.076,"text":"那我們每次都要這樣子很被迫要快速的再去審條例再重新再去審條例不能在一個條例裡面就把這個整個包裹的辦法做完那未來在預算審查的時候是不是更加的有便利性是不是更加的能夠來去面對嚴峻的國防的挑戰所以這個部分我是想要先先把我上個禮拜沒有回應在野黨委員的時間想在這個地方再跟國人說明一下如果你覺得軍購它有延宕那我們把上購包含進去"},{"start":299.756,"end":326.005,"text":"如果你覺得商購裡面沒有軍購嚴謹跟可以輸出這種比較大型的這種只有這個透過政府跟政府能夠更完整的來包括的話那也請支持軍購不要把它一分為二所以這次我還是要強調這一個軍購案 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麻煩請顧部長請顧部長"},{"start":11.383,"end":37.093,"text":"好 部長好本席一向的立場就是支持我們中華民國不管是國軍 國防部但把錢花在刀口上又買到我們真的合用的武器 設備 系統 裝置這點大家應該是都一樣的想法但今天本席不禁看到有個媒體報導講是說我們的機場安全AI影像分析系統而且那媒體是用很大的很聳動的標題啊"},{"start":38.433,"end":54.599,"text":"大翻車然後又說我們花了四千四百萬變成是豪華的擺設我想先請教一下部長我想今天上午這樣子應該也都已經有初步做個了解了嘛第一到底這個系統是什麼時候驗收完畢我想請空軍來簡單回答"},{"start":56.641,"end":76.073,"text":"委員好 我是國際參謀長 跟委員報告這個原起還是跟委員報告一下我們在111年11月25號的時候E2K這架兩五動三號機這個媒體都已經寫了我們就是因為這樣所以說才要去編列4400萬來購AI系統那立法院也支持所以說去年的8月"},{"start":76.653,"end":91.637,"text":"招標也決標了所以我們大家都理解但我現在要確認的是說什麼時候驗收完畢在12月10號的時候去年12月10號驗收完畢去年12月10號驗收完畢因為我看到媒體報導空軍一直強調跟回應就是已經驗收完畢了"},{"start":92.597,"end":120.263,"text":"柯委員強調的不是驗收部驗收完畢這個事情因為沒有持續的提升飛安持續的提升飛安這是空軍第一次運用這樣的一個系統導入能夠提升飛安降低飛安的機率來減輕人力的負荷所以說我們在去年也是用創新的方式來請廠商設計因為以前從來沒有人這樣做過這個系統它是第一次結合攝影機跟一些大數據演算國外也沒有沒有"},{"start":120.803,"end":143.792,"text":"國外也沒有沒有那我們自己去想了一個系統然後我們自己去想設計一個方法我們是希望提升飛安提升飛安的這個我們跟美國那麼好美國他們的一些經驗沒有讓我們來做一個分享美國也沒有用AI這個國企真的差異很大他們在跑道上面就是機場裡面連飛撫室就是說在機場裡面監控的人都沒有這個"},{"start":145.493,"end":160.361,"text":"國情真的大不同我們在非安的角度上來講是比較嚴謹的今天看到的是我們要為人民的納稅錢來把關所以說我們現在想要強調的跟確認的地方是到底有沒有如同報導這樣講的4400萬好像變成是豪華設備豪華裝備報告委員沒有驗收完畢之後有沒有再出包"},{"start":165.929,"end":191.107,"text":"驗收完畢還是有一些狀況還是有一些狀況比在驗收初期少了很多我們到目前為止什麼時候狀況現在狀況解除了沒因為報導裡面還有提到是有我們的群組賴群組的對話賴群組對話是不是真的因為這個會造成今天的梅波事件是因為他在設計的初期因為他系統會警告說期貨架沒放所以人員就要趕快拿起來看"},{"start":191.747,"end":211.739,"text":"那因為他的判斷會因為天氣的不同下雨天陰霾天霧天他會判斷會有誤差所以說我們也是一直在教育這個系統讓他能夠蒐集更多的數據陳班長你這樣講的好像你是廠商的代表我們現在要的是空軍地胸的安全為第一優先順位嘛是"},{"start":212.079,"end":241.333,"text":"你自己剛剛就一開始開宗明義就講說2021年因為跑出跑道的一個事故而造成說我們想要精進這個本席完全理解也同意啊所以我們所以我們現在才這樣就是說現在這個系統有沒有把錢花在刀口上以及能不能實際運用那你剛剛本席問的他在12月10號按照議員標準都已經通過在12月10號已經通過就是就已經通過還是持續粗暴這也是你剛剛講的嘛粗暴有幾個原因那本席剛剛要問的地方是說這個群組裡面的對話是不是真的"},{"start":242.987,"end":259.79,"text":"其實裡面有些出包是我們人員不熟悉系統去按錯東西出包的我們的人員也有問題在裡面所以說我們不斷的教育系統也教育我們的操作人員參謀長 冷息怎麼越來越覺得你是在我好像在跟廠商代表講話"},{"start":262.01,"end":281.848,"text":"今天一個系統我們要用結果反而變成媒體報導講是說讓人眼辨識如果說我們這樣依照沒有這個系統引入的時候我們用肉眼辨識人眼辨識可能還不會出現這個問題那今天這個系統來不是增加我們的安全反而變成是我們的人要double check"},{"start":282.108,"end":293.721,"text":"要兩倍的時間是AI先系統先判斷了之後然後之後我們人在判斷確認AI判斷有沒有問題那這樣子就變成是一個人做兩份工啦這個我們會再繼續的改善我們今天"},{"start":296.863,"end":322.44,"text":"參謀長我今天就是看到媒體報導我也不知道說為什麼媒體今天報導會再挑今天國防會教委員會有國防部來質詢的但是重點這已經不是冰凍三尺非一日之寒啊那如果說裡面的群組的對話也都是真的我們也看到甚至報導直接就講是說我們有負責的中將還是負責的這個上校直接打電話嚴正的要求系統不能再出這樣的包"},{"start":323.2,"end":344.621,"text":"我們會持續的要求 其實這樣子我是肯定這樣的態度是因為我們付了錢我們就應該把錢花在刀口上就沒有想到不是 那就你今天跟我一直在講你還講到反而是推給我們一直到二月三月都還是有持續請廠商來一直持續的在是嘛 那現在所以說你也承認現在這個廠商設計這個系統到目前為止還沒有辦法百分之百可以運用的良好"},{"start":345.422,"end":364.673,"text":"所以我們原本是希望能夠取代人力我們原本是希望能夠精進安全結果現在變成是沒有辦法取代人力我們的人還要double check那你不覺得這樣子反而沒有把錢花在刀口上嗎所以我們會持續的檢討這個案子因為在整個大數據AI的過程中我們必須要持續的去教育這個系統"},{"start":367.455,"end":394.423,"text":"如果說可以出包 連剛剛參謀長都已經承認了就出包完 驗收完之後都還有持續有狀況那驗收他也是怎麼驗收的因為這個系統是第一次我們建置這個系統不管第一次第二次 如果說他沒有辦法上限率合格率沒有辦法那麼大你就不應該讓他驗收啊那以前可以怎麼做 以前都是用人眼辨識 肉眼辨識那你為什麼急著要在去年的時候來驗收"},{"start":396.448,"end":423.135,"text":"按照合約是12月2號驗收這不是按照合約你的合約是到今年的年底啊你的合約到今年年底如果說換言之你到今年年底以前驗收都可以但重點在於是我們花了錢怎麼會變成是買到這樣子的一個系統而現在嘉義還在做對不對也是同一個廠商同一個系統是不是嘉義的水上靶場是嘛水溪靶場"},{"start":425.071,"end":434.998,"text":"水上水溪靶場是靶場的AI這個是另外一個也是同一個廠商同一套系統同一套系統是那會不會有一樣的狀況我們會持續的檢討是來部長"},{"start":442.38,"end":456.987,"text":"本席講了那麼多其實我們都站在的是你要用我們支持你要錢給錢但花錢要買到好東西可以減輕我們官兵弟兄負擔跟提升我們官兵弟兄安全而不是變成說"},{"start":458.51,"end":472.687,"text":"好像我們自己 我們變成是我們來幫廠商測試啊剛剛參謀講的這第一次那結果我們幫廠商測試我們拿我們的官兵弟兄當成是試驗品 實驗室等到我們測試良好之後他可以再賣給其他人是不是"},{"start":475.429,"end":487.357,"text":"所有的AI他都會有要有一個自主學習的一個過程所以我想所以我們現在屏東市場當成是自主學習的實驗場我們給我們的廠商變成是自主學習實驗場我們買的不就是要已經是可以上線的AI作為一個輔助的一個系統那麼他會不斷的進進我們當初的標案講的是我們要的是一個學習的系統還是可以合格使用的系統"},{"start":504.108,"end":531.894,"text":"就這麼簡單我們的標案書到底是怎麼寫的你四千四百萬如果跟我講是說你們是什麼中研院中科院還在學習還在什麼研發那我不怪你啊但如果說你今天的標案書跟我們講是說你是要一個合格上限的系統那就不應該存在還有所謂的學習啊那個反應是在系統第一次跟第二次驗收不合格的時候我們的操作人員反應的那現在已經大幅的降低這樣的一個狀況"},{"start":535.2,"end":555.095,"text":"來啦 部長一次的意外都不應該發生我們現在還沒有意外真的是我們中華民國弟兄官兵福大命大那我是不是可以要求國防部這邊針對這一個部分給外交國防委員會跟本席一個檢討報告可以多久時間可以拿出來"},{"start":557.099,"end":585.956,"text":"看我們大概三個禮拜嗎 三個禮拜 本席等你三個禮拜我再一次強調 這個廠商我也不認識這個報導我是今天看到但我覺得一個報導用一個很嚴厲的言辭大翻車4400萬變豪華設備這對於我們官兵弟兄也是一種羞辱如果說不是事實也要予以駁斥但更重要的是我們把錢花在刀口上這才是我們共同應該要一起的態度以上 謝謝"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}