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我們有請部長好 我們請林部長"},{"start":12.609,"end":41.334,"text":"萬委員早安部長早3月31號晚上LINE出現了大規模的登錄異常帳戶也被盜用那這些被盜用對象大概比較多是台灣大哥大的用戶那主要現在了解是有一些不肖人士利用台灣大哥大語音信箱的功能跟LINE的一個驗證機制的一些漏洞去盜取民眾的帳戶那顯然部長是知道這件事的那這個是發生到現在一個禮拜部長有沒有講過我們現在目前有多少民眾受害"},{"start":43.091,"end":65.059,"text":"目前台灣大哥大他接獲的那個客訴事實上只有16件但是我們所瞭解的其實受到影響的民眾應該是更多遠超過這個數字那只是說正式跟那個台灣大哥大提出客訴的只有16件因為其實我相信有很多的民眾有的自認倒楣有人嫌麻煩有人覺得算了這個應該很多"},{"start":65.959,"end":92.275,"text":"那但是這件事情呢我們除了人數要去掌握一下之外有沒有去考慮過說這到底是賴的問題呢還是台灣大哥大的問題這個責任歸屬是什麼是我想委員問到一個重點事實上在這種資安或者是這種詐騙的時候常常是很有趣的是什麼他個別來看很有趣喔我沒有覺得很有趣呢好啦抱歉啦我講錯話了OK就是說個別來看的話都是一個小問題就是說"},{"start":93.976,"end":120.549,"text":"因為台哥大他提供了他就是提供了一個語音信箱的遠端可以操控的功能這個本身是一個正面的事情只是說他有一個小問題是他從台灣之星那邊接收過來的這個背景上面我想我們都知道了那現在你認為應該是誰的責任還是雙方都有責任兩邊的話你來講都不是很大的問題但是結合起來就是一個漏洞很多的資安問題都是這個樣子"},{"start":121.79,"end":128.612,"text":"所以我們現在最重要的問題兩兆都有問題是趕快把這個漏洞給補助好 那當然我覺得您說得非常的好那現在看起來LINE它針對這件事情所以提供了一些補救的方式那它有提到說這個帳號如果已經有綁定了Apple或者Google的帳號它可能可以幫你找回帳號那如果沒有綁定的話它可能只能協助你重新建立一個帳號但我們都知道LINE對於民眾的依賴度其實就是民眾依賴它很高"},{"start":150.797,"end":173.432,"text":"那你現在一個新的帳號其實有很多的困擾那他現在就是說那你如果有這個購買這個付費的商品那可能回補這個經費不過帳號盜用之後還會衍生一些這個法律問題這才是最可怕的就拿這個帳號去詐騙那我們有沒有去了解一下說如果這個帳號被盜那被盜了之後又拿去做詐騙的工具甚至於得逞了那這個法律的責任應該是誰要來負"},{"start":176.004,"end":203.981,"text":"我覺得那個萬有緣你提的這個問題就是這個問題的核心其實這個LINE帳號被盜用其實很大的一個可能就是詐騙集團拿去做下一次的詐騙所以這個詐騙事實上是一個產業鏈它是一個階段一個階段來做的然後它利用各種小小的這個資安漏洞湊合起來就變成一個很大的資安漏洞那這個法律的這個事情我想這個可能得上法院才能釐清因為你說這個事情"},{"start":205.802,"end":213.764,"text":"我同意後端當然就是來到司法雖然說司法其實對於現在的詐騙我看起來蠻束手無策所以我們才會有個速發部才會想要從源頭來想辦法去遏止這個事情的發生所以剛剛我同意你說的一部分但是我覺得發生這樣的事情以後速發部其實應該要跟平台跟LINE或者跟台灣大哥大我覺得應該我不知道你們開過會了沒有針對這個案子"},{"start":233.395,"end":254.786,"text":"應該對不起我自己沒有開過會但是應該我們同仁都有跟他們都跟他聯絡因為現在我覺得不是單項聯會而已事實上是應該要把電信業者跟平台業者找來我們去看一看說到底這些所謂的這個可以杜絕的一些機制啊或者加強茶葉有沒有到高一尺磨高一丈那不能他們一直在進步我們留在原地嘛所以這個部分"},{"start":256.166,"end":284.151,"text":"會後讓我知道一下就這個案子我們有沒有跟兩方去談一談怎麼樣去加強這個機制怎麼樣去防堵看到這次的漏洞作為下一次不要再發生這樣OK嗎這個沒問題啊那這跟委員說一下因為這個治安的特性就是什麼這個漏洞在發生發現以後就叫Zero Day Vulnerability這個發現以後我們把它堵住以後它事實上就不會再發生了像這兩案子其實就堵住了但是它會尋找新的漏洞而不是舊的漏洞這個我當然知道這又是另外一個議題"},{"start":284.891,"end":294.775,"text":"那我的意思說不然連這個都堵不住就不好看了嘛不會啦 這個當然就是我們在最短的時間之內就是說這個事情還沒有擴散我們就已經通知這兩個業者把它堵住了一個禮拜內給我一下就關於這個案子發現的漏洞然後目前怎麼去加強那給我一個資料好不好沒有問題來接下來呢我想繼續我們看到就是剛剛講的是LINE嘛跟這個台灣大哥大部分但是電信業者目前看起來他們沒有提出任何的補償的一個"},{"start":314.602,"end":340.623,"text":"做為出來啦所以我想是不是部長應該我在這裡提醒您您也可能要提醒一下在我們台灣大哥大的部分我們依據現在的個資保護法第28條第29條可以去看一看被害人雖非財產上是損失但是還是得請求賠償相當之金額那同時如果被害人就算不能證明他實際損失的時候他一樣可以跟法院依照侵害的情節每一個人大概500到200兩萬塊錢的這個請求的"},{"start":344.206,"end":362.98,"text":"這個損害賠償所以呢我是這個提供給你們你們在跟平台跟這個電信業者在談的時候也要讓他們知道其實啊今天是因為有很多的民眾我們現在呼籲很多民眾受害了其實是應該要站出來講的那很多民眾可能不知道他有這個權益喔我認為速發部有這個責任把這樣的訊息這個弄出去好不好"},{"start":363.98,"end":386.127,"text":"接下來我想再談一件事情我們一直在談海底電纜韌性的加強可是本席看到蘇發部在昨天的時候有公佈114年台灣海底通訊電纜損害的原因其中提到台灣海纜斷線的次數大概去年前大概都是在7次左右這個數據是正確的嗎"},{"start":388.088,"end":403.965,"text":"是你們發布的應該是正確的嘛但是呢 本席又看到在速發布轄下的台灣網路資訊中心有一位黃聖雄董事長他在接受您剛剛所說很有公信力的台灣事實查核中心網路節目上面有說到他說全球現在約有500條的海底電纜"},{"start":406.007,"end":423.229,"text":"每一條平均每一年斷線是0.1次到0.2次換言之可能就是每10年有一次會斷的一個機率可是台灣國內的這個海欄尤其是馬祖這個台馬這一條它平均斷欄的比例是一年一條海欄大概5到6次是"},{"start":425.071,"end":442.436,"text":"本席就看啦 我們台馬海纜就談這個就好大概有三條 沒有錯嘛那如果按照這個算數來算的話那一年不是就是要差不多每一年的斷纜次數大概就在15次左右喔所以呢 你看速發部你自己再給我一個資訊說113年跟114年喔 國內的海纜斷線都是4次但事實上你光台馬這算起來就已經15次了到底這個差 落差是為什麼"},{"start":451.698,"end":472.999,"text":"我想這個落差主要是在於說24海裏之內還是24海裏之外這個是不是形容我們任性四次的海裏這個不管24海裏之內24海裏之外我覺得這個你速發布自己在公布的時候你就要說清楚嘛本身今天所有持續的東西都是從你上面去講來的嘛所以呢你看你自己發布的是這個四次但落差其實是非常的大的不是嗎"},{"start":473.479,"end":502.518,"text":"是跟委員報告基本上台馬海嵐自蘇發部成立以來到目前為止到今年3月總共斷了21次今年斷了兩次所以意味著就有19次在歷來就發生那全國的來講大概就三十幾次所以馬祖海嵐確實它的斷人頻率偏高那第二個就是跟委員報告基本上國際海嵐在做評估的時候目前的資訊有不同的資訊以ITU的資訊目前500根裡頭每年發生次數是200次以上"},{"start":503.439,"end":524.959,"text":"好 我理解 而且這個背景我也知道所以我是建議速發部啦 你在公布這個相關次數的時候啊背景條件它的基礎是在哪個地方 我覺得要講清楚是 沒有問題否則在我們看起來就是說 如果你連這個海嵐斷線的這個次數 落差都那麼大數據都弄不清楚 何來談韌性啦有啊 我們有講得很清楚啦"},{"start":525.663,"end":544.882,"text":"報告委員確實如此可能你自己很清楚啦但你公布的是不清楚的確實委員講這件事是一個我們為什麼要公布這個這樣子好不好你在會後今天就給我一份你認為最正確的資料再補一份上來那最後我想在一分鐘的時間您剛剛說到我們現在有一個數位憑證皮夾APP對不對我覺得很棒"},{"start":549.346,"end":576.409,"text":"這是一個很好的構想 也是一個很好的行動那我看到你的網站上介紹說不管是超商取貨 辦理政府業務拿出手機點一點就搞定了使用數位憑證憑假 辦理政府業務的時候只需要這個攜帶手機不需要一些繁瑣的證件手續 對嗎那我請教一下 那現在哪一些政府業務可以辦理目前 因為我們才剛剛在推出 那我們現在就是哪一些 現在可以辦理哪一些政府業務"},{"start":583.193,"end":597.423,"text":"今天報告我是哪一些政府業務目前的部分我們可以用的部分包含公務局的駕照 駕照相關的應用那後續在4月底會有工商名證也就是公司行號的生產推薦沒有 我就說目前嘛 我今天等一下要辦的話"},{"start":598.343,"end":624.52,"text":"跟你們報告一下 政府的角色主要是發證然後在應用的話 我們現在是民間應用譬如說我用政府發的那個駕照去用民間去租車所以就是說直接政府的應用這個上面我們目前部長啦 我建議你網路上去修正啦不要在這邊在這邊胡說八道了啦我今天拿出來看 本身剛剛就上去看看了以後就是兩個問問看是不是要去什麼便利超商是要到全家便利還是7-11去取貨沒有別的功能啦"},{"start":627.262,"end":631.083,"text":"沒有啦 我剛才要咨詢你之前我才看過啦我們接下來馬上會有台大 成大教大學生證跟畢業證我再重申一次你這個數位憑證皮夾我覺得很好但是我覺得身為速發部你最主要的功能我們現在都認為打詐嘛但不能左手打詐右邊詐騙啊你現在還沒有做到嘛"},{"start":650.828,"end":675.967,"text":"還沒有做到事情就不要好大喜功拿來寫這樣民眾上去看了以後會失望啊會對政府失望明明說可以辦很多政府業務結果他們一上去看什麼都不能辦只能去取貨我建議你啦如果是後面後面才要來可以執行的部分的話就不要在這上面去把它寫出來這是另外詐騙的一種啦好不好如果說有詐騙的話麻煩那個委員就明確講出來哪一句話不對我已經講出來了你是聽不懂喔"},{"start":676.747,"end":691.823,"text":"我講得這麼清楚嘛你說辦理政府業務那你現在又說政府業務要後面啊馬上要怎麼樣連結啊就還沒有嘛那本席好意提醒你說這個APP這個做法很好但是還沒有做到不要好大喜功對民眾來講這就是一種欺騙好不好所以這個部分請你嚴謹啦"},{"start":696.007,"end":721.659,"text":"那再來最後 我想現在我們在各部會有一些文化幣 運動幣 客家幣等等那我希望部長能夠跟其他部會的部長去研究一下說能不能把它整合起來這樣不要說一種數位幣就可以一個APP其實會 各機關是成本浪費也很麻煩這個部分研究一下好不好是 現在客家幣已經是使用我們的共同平台所以已經有開始了對好 那文化幣 運動幣也拜託好不好了解看看有沒有可能可以整合一下"},{"start":722.54,"end":744.016,"text":"是 因為他們已經launch了所以這個時候要拿回來再改的話比較麻煩但是如果說政府其他部會有新的這種幣要發行的話現在我們也都跟各個部會去溝通希望他們盡量利用速發部所開發的這個共同發放平台那不發現金事實上也是利用這個共同發放平台去發的好 OK 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有請吳主委好 有請主委各位好主委好請問主委知道我們賴總統的名字英文名字裡面有哪兩個英文字母是您應該要非常關注的嗎"},{"start":32.677,"end":59.587,"text":"AI很好賴總統應該也是最重視AI我想要跟您請教一件事去年年底我們千辛萬苦的一起努力共同通過了AI基本法我們總統也在1月份也正式把它簽署完成你的報告裡面也都有提到在第6條有提到行政院要成立AI戰略特別委員會剛剛也有委員有問到"},{"start":61.618,"end":74.504,"text":"那我們也非常關注這件事那因為這個您應該也在裡面扮演很重要的角色所以請問主委從去年底到現在四個月了這個委員會辦理的進度怎麼樣有沒有開會"},{"start":76.124,"end":90.95,"text":"AI戰略委員會的規劃從總統公布以後我們就開始就進行了有沒有開會?有 左院長都主持會有開過幾次會?不是委員會 就是籌備的對 籌備會開過了幾次?什麼時候?"},{"start":94.891,"end":112.706,"text":"好多次了 這個算不清了我們發文請教你們的同仁AI基本法鎖定戰略小組織辦理進度是怎麼樣 機密不能分享嗎為什麼這個竟然說複製貼上完全把法條複製貼上 您看一下"},{"start":114.11,"end":141.161,"text":"那幾次會議為什麼不能分享 這不是辦理進步嗎內部還在規劃會議有沒有會議記錄你說無數次的會有沒有會議記錄無數次是包含很多就碰面 傳個LINE也是無數次嗎不是啦 工作層級的會議因為這是跨部會的 我們有三政委的會議還有那個副院長主持的會議 院長主持的會議那能不能會後提供這些會議的日期記錄 可以嗎"},{"start":143.403,"end":157.897,"text":"都提供出來可以嗎相關規劃過程我們做哪些事我們會提供那日期呢 會議記錄日期呢我們這個政務系統不是用LINE在開會沒有日期的吧哇 三政委什麼時候討論哇 我們現在在國會裡要問都沒有答案嗎幕僚傳來的訊息給我法條複製貼上"},{"start":165.084,"end":192.254,"text":"我們一定會按照這個法在立法院通過的決議事項會辦理時程我們也會這樣所以提供資料好不好好不好因為主委我想其實非常簡單因為我們現在已經過了三分之一的時間法條裡面有提到一年內要開會嘛對吧認知嘛那我想卓院長一定也認為很需要那國客會是幕僚單位我想不要到時候卓院長要開會了"},{"start":193.134,"end":220.896,"text":"幕僚作業還沒有完成這個我想不是我們希望看到的吧謝謝委員 只派國客會來做這個事誰 蛤謝謝委員啦欸 主委我想我們這個是一個民主制度我們立法院113位委員共同的完成第六條有沒有表決第六條有沒有表決第六條有沒有表決主委知道嗎我不知道"},{"start":221.596,"end":250.783,"text":"第六條沒有表決啊第六條是共識啊所以是感謝委員們好不好感謝委員們不分黨派嘛所以我想這一點也是希望能夠持續關心那本席要在這裡特別提醒主委AI變化真的很快速啊剛剛我在台下聽有委員質詢說您的回應是什麼南部有一個新的算力中心是多少MW您可以再說一次目前第一階段建置5.15.1嘛那第二階段呢"},{"start":251.69,"end":259.627,"text":"因為這要看後續的預算是嘛那我告訴您您應該知道現在在美國建算力工廠的單位是多少您知道嗎唉"},{"start":264.758,"end":282.11,"text":"美國那麼大的國家他們服務的他們的市場那麼大我們國科會建的只是為了服務我們的學員但是我們會引起民間的投資所以民間投資主委 剛剛這個問題很科學啦美國的單位到底是多少啦Gigawatt對嘛Gigawatt是Megawatt的幾倍啊"},{"start":291.414,"end":311.306,"text":"科學的問題不要不好意思我們要有自信嘛不是說不講就是沒有嘛來 主席GigaWatt是MegaWatt幾倍您停這麼久我想我們全國學員單位會覺得很憂心喔是幾倍GigaWatt是MegaWatt幾倍這個我大一的"},{"start":312.628,"end":339.522,"text":"那個計算機概論對嘛所以我們要所以可以回答嘛是幾倍講那個沒有意義啊台灣不可能做這麼大的啊多幾倍嘛這個科學的問題我們在這裡不能回答嗎1024倍很好就是1000倍左右啦對不對1024不是10001024好1024那請問馬斯克剛成立的要做一個算力工廠的叫做什麼名字"},{"start":342.628,"end":356.56,"text":"叫Terawatt又是GW的幾倍?我想也不用問啦,再1024倍嘛,對不對?所以我想主委,您剛剛說美國很大,晶片生產最多的地方是哪裡?"},{"start":362.372,"end":375.737,"text":"是哪裡 台灣嘛台灣嘛 對嘛 全世界先進製程最好的地方在這裡嘛沒有這些先進製程 他們有辦法蓋這些G瓦有辦法蓋這些T瓦嗎 沒辦法嘛 是吧"},{"start":377.716,"end":393.961,"text":"所以我想主委有能力的人找解方沒能力的人找藉口我想在這裡我們在台灣我們要很驕傲的說出來我們也可以談GWR我們也可以談TIWA我們不一定要蓋在台灣啊我們可以跟人家合作啊"},{"start":394.821,"end":413.888,"text":"是吧我們可以跟這些產業談好一些合作的機制這個其實就是我們期望在國家戰略委員會裡面要討論的因為我理解這很可能不是完全是主委的權責但是幕僚機構早一點推進我們可以從立法院的角度來說誒院長"},{"start":415.58,"end":433.265,"text":"幕僚已經完成作業你怎麼還不召開可以理解嗎 主委我想我們的意識是一致的啦希望主委把這個事情放在心上那另外這個最近很紅啦 小龍蝦這個我們我很崇拜李鴻毅老師有一個解剖小龍蝦的影片主委有看過嗎"},{"start":436.523,"end":451.508,"text":"你說影片 影片我沒看過這個陳副主委應該有看過李宏毅老師的影片我在這邊幫李宏毅老師廣告一下因為這部影片很長 大概兩個小時但他非常精準的拆解了最近的這個風潮Open Club這個風潮我想這一點為什麼我要問"},{"start":456.149,"end":481.449,"text":"是因為有很多媒體或者是一些人會擔心這個agent很危險但是我們還是要講一個新的技術出來風險的觀測是正常的但是要看機會啦所以呢我們也希望國科會能夠早一點去討論這個agentic應用在科學科研這裡面的用途那也謝謝主委副主委都很認同啦這個副主委尤其一直點頭"},{"start":482.19,"end":492.325,"text":"那我想要問那剛剛我們提到不管是OpenClock或者是這些AI Agent其實會需要消耗什麼AI Token請問主委知道AI Token是什麼嗎這運算的輸出啊"},{"start":496.816,"end":516.51,"text":"運算的輸出的某一種計量的單位嘛或者一種概念啦那我想要請教主委說您支不支持科學研究去使用更多的AI工具跟AI的token支持啊支持嘛那我想我能不能提一個建議就是我們在延攬國外人才的時候啊"},{"start":517.35,"end":535.826,"text":"我們能不能提供更多的AI Token來當作誘因為什麼因為全世界都知道台灣有很多晶片嘛沒有這些先進製成的晶片沒有AI Token可以產出也沒有辦法輸入對吧那我們能不能去評估台灣可以成為一個我們不一定有自己"},{"start":536.646,"end":558.725,"text":"很多的Gigawatt、Terawatt的這個功能可是我們可不可以跟別人合作我可不可以跟別人談條件美國川普都可以說你要出口多少我要扣10%、扣20%我要入股這些比較激進的想法我們留給戰略委員會但是我們能不能去提供說第一個像國外的科技人才來台剛剛您提到嘛說什麼人口的問題啦我覺得這都不是問題我們能不能提供更多的AI Token"},{"start":564.87,"end":583.187,"text":"同時如果教授做研究有需要用到AI Token國科會能不能針對這些Token用得多用得好的教授我們給予多一點的補助跟支持這個沒問題 這個建議很好其實我們也是朝這個方向在走太好了 那一個月內可不可以提供相關的行動的可能性方案給我們參考 可以嗎"},{"start":584.528,"end":608.098,"text":"好 那我們陳副主委好 這個我覺得大家都會非常認同的這也會是您的一個得證好不好那這個主席已經站起來讓我爭取一點點時間請問主委還有一件事剛剛我們都講英文AI Token請問Token這個詞在我們繁體中文你剛剛一直講主權AI嘛文化主權嘛請問繁體中文怎麼翻譯繁體中文怎麼翻譯我還沒有翻譯過 我還不曉得"},{"start":619.904,"end":630.612,"text":"我想全國民眾看到這段重播都會非常難過啦我們行政單位不要把主權AI當成一個招牌名詞掛在頭上"},{"start":633.869,"end":661.025,"text":"它比較接近應該是磁源因為它是用智源去生出來的東西但很不幸的磁源是中國政府公告的翻譯方式我們目前還沒有我們還沒有正式的翻譯是啊我們不是應該走在前面嗎台灣的晶片沒有這些晶片沒有這些Token的這些速度我們能不能我們主委作為AI的大家長我們能不能整理一下目前AI上面相關翻譯的問題不只是Token"},{"start":663.446,"end":691.6,"text":"還有非常多的什麼智慧體啦代理人啦相關的這些機制我想我們要有主權AI沒有這種文化性的定義不會有主權AI喔因為科學的進展很快啦科技的領域不見得能夠很即時的所有的名詞都有各種語言的翻譯不見得但是如果英文是通用的話像我們講AI也變通用啦大家都習以為常的話不會被誤解這樣應該是OK啦"},{"start":692.961,"end":700.796,"text":"主委我想我們有能力的人我們來做事我們有能力的人來找解方我相信主委您是有能力的人對嗎"},{"start":701.889,"end":725.737,"text":"當然如果token這個字已經用得非常頻繁那需要有中文的翻譯反正如果大家最後都習以為常我們產業上很不幸啦現在是在使用中國大陸的翻譯啦也許那不是最好的也許那個是我們可以接受的我們國客會可不可以有一個相關的定調啊可以嗎可不可以一個月夠不夠"},{"start":727.915,"end":743.61,"text":"我們不能指定說這個詞應該怎麼翻啦因為這民間不見得會接受所以這個可能有個程序過去這種程序就是外語翻成中文的這個程序那關於這個程序可不可以提供一些演繹的結果啊"},{"start":745.231,"end":769.164,"text":"我想这个真的是为了我们国内的科研一起在做事不好意思让主席这么麻烦我最后就希望说主委多协调一下我们战略特别委员会是一个很重要的平台提到了这个主旋的文化这种语汇的这种正式的翻译我也希望我们主委一起来努力还有包含科研的单位教授使用AI token的这些激励好不好好谢谢好谢谢好谢谢我们各位委员"}]}},{"id":"168213","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168213","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/70d8fc05dcd8abb0d6f67de6a46e070301ae777e4c72867e413b5cd1255e9444f0c0b32b082070385ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"09:29:25 - 09:40:52","影片長度":"00:11:27","會議時間":"2026-04-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、經濟部、衛生福利部、農業部就「穩定供給與減塑並進：因應國際原物料波動之原物料穩定供應及我國減塑治理進程」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n\n討論事項\n一、審查「廢棄物清理法條文修正草案」9案：\n（一）委員馬文君等17人擬具「廢棄物清理法第五條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員顏寬恒等19人擬具「廢棄物清理法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員顏寬恒等17人擬具「廢棄物清理法第五條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員林淑芬等22人擬具「廢棄物清理法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員張宏陸等17人擬具「廢棄物清理法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員邱議瑩等21人擬具「廢棄物清理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員許智傑等29人擬具「廢棄物清理法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員劉建國等19人擬具「廢棄物清理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「廢棄物清理法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查「資源回收再利用法修正草案」2案：\n（一）委員許智傑等28人擬具「資源回收再利用法修正草案」案。\n（二）委員盧縣一等16人擬具「資源回收再利用法修正草案」案。\n【專題報告及法律案綜合詢答，法律案僅詢答】\n【4月8日及9日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-04-08","start_time":"2026-04-08T09:29:25+08:00","end_time":"2026-04-08T09:40:52+08:00","duration":687,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":5,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-5-26-5"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.14409375,"end":5.414093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.578468750000001,"end":7.574093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.51909375,"end":8.535968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.535968750000002,"end":9.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.231593750000002,"end":12.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.99096875,"end":22.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.007843750000003,"end":13.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.41971875,"end":35.83971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.143468750000004,"end":48.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.360968750000005,"end":50.976593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.330968750000004,"end":66.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":66.85596875,"end":104.26784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.22159375000001,"end":106.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.18721875,"end":129.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.49596875,"end":140.19471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.49846875,"end":141.35909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.64596875,"end":142.54034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.81034375000002,"end":145.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.59471875,"end":147.04596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.36659375000002,"end":149.89784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.93159375000002,"end":182.44971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":182.77034375000002,"end":220.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.67596875,"end":230.07096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.15534375000001,"end":232.14659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.32409375,"end":230.45909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.34909375,"end":244.85346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":245.00534375,"end":266.11596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.22971875,"end":269.13659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.55846875000003,"end":287.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":287.29409375,"end":310.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.71659375,"end":312.48846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":312.70784375,"end":337.27784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.71659375,"end":355.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.28346875,"end":356.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":356.16096875,"end":366.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":367.01159375000003,"end":377.52471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":377.82846875,"end":401.33534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":401.33534375000005,"end":427.23846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":403.52909375,"end":403.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":427.28909375,"end":445.10909375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":444.46784375000004,"end":462.45659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":445.75034375,"end":445.98659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":457.27596875,"end":458.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":462.77721875000003,"end":463.55346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":463.67159375000006,"end":465.20721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":467.73846875000004,"end":478.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":478.94346875,"end":496.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":485.71034375000005,"end":486.16596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":497.23596875000004,"end":510.04409375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":505.30221875,"end":505.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":506.85471875,"end":507.22596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":508.60971875,"end":513.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":513.55409375,"end":528.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":529.14659375,"end":532.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":532.97721875,"end":537.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":538.14096875,"end":544.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":545.34659375,"end":550.3415937500001},{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今天我覺得把這個專題排進雙法來做詢問我認為事實上非常有必要因為這次國際局勢的一波動大家看到的是不只是我們的塑膠袋變貴而是臺灣的市場零售對一次性的一個塑膠的依賴事實上是非常的深習近平這次要求我們要先穩原物料 穩供應鏈"},{"start":38.263,"end":66,"text":"也特別的要求醫材原料事實上是不能出問題這個方向我非常的支持也因為民生跟醫療一定要先穩住那我要請教部長的是因為因我們國際情勢的一個變動現在這些代代相傳的做法還是在示範 示範鼓勵的性質比較多所以部長你認為這樣的強度真的足以打破我們現在這個高度依賴一次性塑膠的系統嗎"},{"start":67.98,"end":93.366,"text":"其實這個有這個念頭因為我們在建國化市已經試驗成功了所以這次是完全升級擴大辦理所以包含了像那天上禮拜我們在建國化市就有一個第一銀行他們就主動捐了一萬六千個二手袋來那我們就開始在做分配所以建國化市現在如果去看的話當有大量的這種二手袋來說他們就可以選擇不用塑膠袋所以我們認為這是成功的而且跟委員報告"},{"start":94.266,"end":119.756,"text":"有些縣市這個東西以前有做過只是沒有那麼全面那我們會再發動各個縣市一起來推動所以這個已經不是一個這種示範型的是一個全面型的我希望環境部把這次的事件當成一個警訊因為讓台灣的檢縮不是靠我們的景氣的平穩的時候的一個宣導而事實上是即使碰到國際風險的時候還是有能力撐住的那個治理系統我覺得這"},{"start":121.044,"end":138.805,"text":"你們一定要去做因為否則像這次來的時候那你們怎麼去因應因為如果大家相傳如果做的事實上是只是那個量體事實上是不夠的話基本上你還是沒有辦法真正解決問題所以部長我當然先肯定你願意面對政策執行的落差從過去的單純我們的純"},{"start":141.707,"end":162.583,"text":"近現用那現在調整成精準減碩跟那個循環經濟這個方向我支持可是我現在擔心的是什麼外界會不會把這個精準減碩解讀成方向有了可是真正執行的時候只剩下少數的示範少數的場域小範圍的KPI最後社會看不到進度的時候也沒辦法監督所以我要來問部長說"},{"start":164.645,"end":182.124,"text":"環境部接下來會不會訂定這六個品項因為你從四個品項變成六個那你會不會訂這個六個品項的一個基準量跟年度的減量值以及六大優先推動場域的分工跟進度是什麼"},{"start":183.125,"end":210.904,"text":"包委員這個其實齁因為這個每一個都涉及到每一個營業場所他的這個使用所以如何以我們的經驗如何去說服每一個業者有這個環保的理念這個比一切都重要所以像我們在去年1月1號推動旅宿業檢授六小品的時候我們就發現大的都沒有問題但是就是有一些會反彈所以我們認為在訂定這個限制之前我們要一定要完整的教育清楚讓他們知道而且不要造成他們經營上的負擔有一點過渡期"},{"start":212.685,"end":229.934,"text":"所以就我們的認知來說的話一定要把它變成是一個規範就像歐盟一樣不用講大家都知道那這個就會有機會成功部長我剛剛問齊成你的進度怎麼因為如果沒有這些中繼的KPI的話你到了2030年2035年目標就還是容易停留在懸殖而已"},{"start":230.394,"end":244.15,"text":"所以為什麼剛剛問你說要講清楚來說明白了另外針對於電商跟我們的零售通路跟品牌商環境部下一步會不會建立年度的揭露跟那個分級的評比"},{"start":245.271,"end":265.892,"text":"在我們這個資源循環推動法裡面我們要把綠色設計放進去那近期我們也在跟那個金管會在討論這個議題就是說循環綠這種循環綠要把它寫進去它的永續報告裡面要把它變成一個強制性的所以這個就會造成說一個更大質變不然的話我們現在推的東西對它來說沒有任何法規可以去限制它"},{"start":267.287,"end":287.046,"text":"而且既然你的零售商品的包裝也已經進入到你的政策的重點了所以我要追問2025年到2030年我們的零售商品的包裝循環永續指引未來會不會有更明確的法制化的啟程而不是永遠停留在指引而且你會如何跟經濟部合作"},{"start":287.926,"end":314.314,"text":"這個部分其實是一定要定義一個規範我們會從這個他如果要用塑膠他的這個再生的循環的力量要定到一個比例來做那第二個是我們因為他有定這個比例我們會定義他是不是綠色的商品所以我們兩條用商業機制的手段來逼迫他們大家鼓勵大家往這個地方邁進那這個部分一定會定出相關因的指標因為還是期待你們不要"},{"start":314.79,"end":324.59,"text":"因為我們問題來的時候你前面的這些做的做法到底能不能去因應真的問題能夠解決問題所以部長再來想從我們的環境治理的觀點來看臺灣檢縮最有意義的指標"},{"start":327.369,"end":354.759,"text":"我認為不應該只是剩下少用了幾個那個塑膠袋所以要問部長是說環境部現在最核心的是減塑指標到底是後端最是後端的一次性的石化塑膠產品的總量下降還是源頭的原生塑膠的使用量下降包含產能管你的那個產能的控管以及透過再生料的一個使用"},{"start":355.479,"end":377.161,"text":"到底是哪一個其實全世界我們也比較了全世界減塑的時程都是第一個一次性的石化塑膠的產品總量那像我們完全這個部分是跟歐盟去做對齊的可是相較於未定案的那個塑膠公約喊出來我們就是未來2040年的減量75%不然你覺得現有的目標值會不會太低如何估算出來"},{"start":378.144,"end":401.137,"text":"因為這個是末端 塑膠公約他訂的是末端的原生塑膠的使用量那我們上面第一次性的是各個國家或是整個歐盟訂出來的塑膠的用量這兩個意涵不大一樣 但是是有點共通性那我們會認為是說 我必須說原生的塑膠使用量下降這是必然的 必須的 但是我們要有一定的方法跟做法才能達到"},{"start":401.477,"end":426.028,"text":"可是民間團體都一直在提醒就是說如果上游的石化產能持續擴張原生塑膠持續便宜的話那民眾再努力少拿一個袋子再努力回收都可能被新增的那個產量來抵銷所以我還是要直接問部長說如果一次性的用品有減量可是但是原生塑膠產能的那個控管沒有下降環境部認為這樣是成功嗎"},{"start":427.529,"end":440.964,"text":"基本上還是要從一次性的就原生性的這個塑膠的產量不過也跟委員報告因為我們臺灣其實有些的原生塑膠已經不在臺灣產了有些是靠進口有些是別的地方傾銷過來所以這個已經不是單純的環保問題是一個經濟的問題這個我們也必須去重視所以我希望部長在會後提供我"},{"start":448.732,"end":463.198,"text":"就各自的那個基準年還有年度的KPI和品項的一個範圍和我們公開揭露的方式這個要麻煩部長這邊好沒問題謝謝部長接下來我們請經濟部代表那個產發署的副署長陳副署長來請陳副署長"},{"start":467.762,"end":496.719,"text":"副總統已經公開要求我們的政府推動循環經濟跟產業的國際化打造一個綠色的台灣品牌行政院也把綠色成長跟淨零轉型列為重要的施政方向這個大方向我認為經濟部大家一定不能缺席所以這次的應急穩工的我能理解可是我想問的是經濟部在中長期上不會只剩下說缺貨就增產的這一套解法吧"},{"start":497.484,"end":513.099,"text":"不會這個真的是一個短期的一個因應措施那長期的話我們在循環經濟從源頭開始來做綠色設計這個是我們在可是如果上游的乙烯產能還是在擴張甚至新"},{"start":513.779,"end":542.465,"text":"至輕的這種投資案還沒有用在我們的減塑循環經濟碳排跟市場需求一起檢驗的話那臺灣很容易就一邊談源頭減塑一邊又讓塑膠上源的那個上游的原物料繼續往上加所以我覺得這個提醒我不會把它簡化成反對產業可是我認為經濟部有責任回答說未來國營事業跟石化投資的決策會不會納入減塑循環材料跟市場需求跟"},{"start":543.045,"end":563.767,"text":"碳排風險的整合評估我想這個長期的目標應該是我們一定會去做一個遵循的可是我最在意的是石化投資決策在產能評估是否有盤點必要的物質還有我們像譬如衣材基礎建設等用途明確替代性成本比較高的項目有嗎"},{"start":565.573,"end":593.779,"text":"這個必須要做一個長期的研究跟一個規劃那現在有在處理嗎這一塊的話我是不是容我在那個會後再補充資料我覺得要真的要跟環境部一次性那個塑膠偵測那個減量來聯動 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沒錯那個委員講的沒錯其實像這類的詐騙最困難的地方就是我們要認定它是不是詐騙那像這個結緣還有風媽祖的這些活動裡面事實上我們知道一定還是會有一些比例是真實的訊息但是有些假的訊息那現在最難的就是我們政府必須在保護言論自由跟打詐中間我們必須取得一個平衡點"},{"start":136.025,"end":150.518,"text":"那以這個台灣事實查查中心來講的話這個單位他做的查核是非常非常嚴謹的但是有一個問題是他的速度非常慢他通常要到一兩個禮拜他才辦法去確定一個訊息是不是詐騙那在這個過程中一兩個禮拜之間其實詐騙都已經發生了是所以我們現在詐騙都已經騙完了沒錯沒錯對不對通常"},{"start":156.784,"end":180.163,"text":"很多現在的詐騙是24小時內他可能已經收集一定的個資詐騙集團他們現在也想的是說他不會一個帳號細水流長就可以騙所以他可能一個帳號假帳號裡面騙24小時甚至12個小時收集一定的個資他就馬上利用這些個資去做詐騙轉變手法那我們現在也看到本席剛剛也特別看了一下我們是這個"},{"start":181.604,"end":210.041,"text":"通訊我們速發部的這個通報網裡面其實過去七天喔我們過去印象中是臉書詐騙是大宗沒錯但在過去七天我看到你們的統計其實萃已經比我們的臉書還要來的多兩倍你看這個是過去七天剛剛抓的資料萃上面有一萬三千多件而臉書上面只有五千多件所以換言之我們過去以往會覺得是說"},{"start":211.402,"end":234.558,"text":"臉書上可能年長者使用比較多翠可能相對年輕比較多可是現在反而是翠的詐騙訊息比較高是有沒有注意到這樣一個情況是我們有注意到這個現象那就是如同我們之前常講的就是打詐就是好人跟壞人之間不斷的攻防我們把原來的這個漏洞把它堵住了以前我們覺得最大的問題是Meta Facebook"},{"start":234.958,"end":257.424,"text":"那現在就是說我們把那個漏洞補得比較好的時候這時候詐騙集團就轉移了就轉移到那個上面然後那個以前的訊息譬如說是很多都是仿冒名人那仿冒名人我們用的各種科技還有非科技的手段我們已經把他擋得差不多的時候他這時候他就是用那個線上銷售我們還是我們現在重點還是說我們必須縮短時間所以"},{"start":259.925,"end":276.325,"text":"應該講 對不起 兩個方面一個是我們想辦法縮短時間那我們現在通知那個Meta他們的下架速度已經很快一個半小時 當然還有改善空間但是另外一個就是Meta包括臉書 IG跟Trade所以說臉書 IG跟Trade都可以在1.5個小時平均可以下架嗎"},{"start":276.826,"end":294.416,"text":"是是同一個系統那我們現在最還是就是問題就是在於說判斷是不是那個詐騙那這個地方我們就是必須跟其他部會去合作因為那個依照法令我們就請人家下架還是必須有法律的依據那另外一部分就是"},{"start":295.936,"end":308.323,"text":"我們除了說要加強這個速度以外我們去找那個請那個Meta他們去找到這個根源因為我們現在這個在Meta上面他這個詐騙的生態是這樣子第一個他們會養賬號養賬號以後他們會去開那個粉絲頁然後粉絲頁以後在下面放廣告"},{"start":315.007,"end":332.719,"text":"這就是本席想要提出來的問題因為過去臉書上面是可以投放廣告所以我們用廣告實名制就可以找出源頭 比較容易有管理但現在粹上面到目前為止訊息的散播他比較沒有辦法說用下廣告的方式來去做散播所以這就是新型態的詐騙手法那我們要怎麼樣預防因為現在你的數據告訴我們來我們上一頁下一頁"},{"start":339.865,"end":349.71,"text":"這個是三十天內的統計這也是速發部的統計三十天內的統計其實TRADE跟臉書已經是不相上下都是六萬多則可是如果說我們再看七天內的統計是"},{"start":352.491,"end":381.471,"text":"萃有一萬三千多則而臉書只有五千多則換言之現在詐騙集團可能也知道是說過去這些手法我們常講磨高一尺道要高一丈那我們現在過去有防堵的繼續防堵但未來的部分這就是本席今天要跟你討論的重點就是說萃上面他沒有辦法廣告實名制的情況可是他有辦法有擴散還有就是他用一些關鍵字那可能搭配Meta他們的演算法會比較容易去散播那我們在這一塊要怎麼管理這才是重點"},{"start":382.051,"end":390.918,"text":"是 OK那這個部分第一個就是我們就是請那個Meta他從後台去觀察這些帳號開設的狀況因為通常這些詐騙帳號他譬如說如果說是用E-mail帳號去開設的話同樣的那個帳號E-mail帳號可能開很多帳號"},{"start":398.684,"end":427.166,"text":"那我們只要找到其中有一個是詐騙帳號的話那Meta那邊就可以去推論說其他他開設的帳戶Thread帳戶也可能是詐騙帳戶那這個事情Meta已經有在做那另外一點我們就希望說結合我們這個數位憑證起筆夾的技術我們以後去標示說哪些人是真人哪些帳戶是真人開的哪些帳戶是台灣人開的其實就是確定時線上線下共同嘛"},{"start":427.366,"end":447.327,"text":"你不是說一個人可以開很多的分身而是最理想的狀態應該是一個人他有一個虛擬的帳戶那他才可以這樣相對應嘛所以過去是用不管是用手機認證不管是用E-mail認證那未來怎麼樣加強這一塊好 因為時間的問題是不是請速發部再給本席相關的資料就是說你們要跟Meta怎麼樣因應"},{"start":448.448,"end":466.673,"text":"脆上面的這種新型態的一個詐騙而不要認為說年輕人不一定比較不容易被騙有些時候年輕人可能他比較熱血或是說他看到這個免費捷冤品他可能就信以為真反而他容易上當所以這個部分我必須要求速發部重視脆的詐騙那再來"},{"start":468.653,"end":481.468,"text":"最近有一個YouTube上面可能很多人也瘋傳就是說我們看到AI的影片但他已經被確認他也是假訊息就是他講說60歲以上長者搭飛機有幾大優惠甚至65歲以上長者搭高鐵有幾大優惠"},{"start":486.073,"end":507.487,"text":"而它已經被認定這是一個AI生成的影片而且它裡面的內容其實大多數也都是不是事實那我只是想要請教因為到目前為止還沒有形成一個詐騙的騙金額可是會有人去做AI的生成影片然後講不是事實的一些優惠有沒有掌握這個狀況以及背後的成因是什麼"},{"start":508.047,"end":531.775,"text":"事實上這個問題會越來越嚴重因為AI的影像生成工具越來越便宜越來越普及所以我們現在就是跟Google還有Meta這些平台我們就跟他談就是說希望以後這個AI生成的這個影片都必須做標示那第一個就是說他們本身這種大廠事實上美國的這些大廠他所生成的這個AI影像事實上裡面都有浮水印可以用那個"},{"start":532.835,"end":550.922,"text":"用軟體的方式技術的方式我們就可以檢查出來它是不是AI生成了那這時候這些平台應該要把它標示出來那這個事情我們努力在跟這些大型的平台在溝通因為他們大部分都是美國公司那他們現在看起來是願意往這個方向去配合那另外就是"},{"start":551.762,"end":575.907,"text":"如果說是另外一些小廠或者就是沒有這個標示的那我們就希望說以後我們去通知如果有人譬如說有人仿冒我的影像做了AI影像的話我通知這些平台那AI這些平台他會有三個選項他會要求這個作者三個選項第一個移除這個影片第二個是做標示第二個是第三個是自負法律責任那現在這些好"},{"start":576.607,"end":604.907,"text":"OK 是部長你講到重點在於是一般百分之八十九十的人其實接收訊息管道還是從YouTube如果說影片的話從YouTube從臉書社群媒體平台所以百分之八九十的管道如果說這些公司願意配合其實就可以減少很多誤判的一個形式所以還是要從源頭管理嘛你如果說你從這些細微末節譬如說要求每一個人用不同的AI工具生成之後然後都來做一個辨識"},{"start":606.448,"end":631.077,"text":"是不一定這個直接但是如果說上傳到這些平台上面平台他就有責任要揭露出說他到底是不是AI生成是沒錯我相信以現在科技現在技術也可以辦得到是所以現在重點在於是對就是本席剛剛講的因為本席剛剛提到有很多鄉親還甚至傳LINE給我問我說這是不是真的高鐵有現在的優惠"},{"start":631.717,"end":661.017,"text":"明顯一看第一他是AI生成影片第二這些高鐵上的優惠其實不是事實那他為什麼背後的成因為什麼要這樣做我們這還要釐清可是在重點在於是說YouTube上面能不能針對這樣子的一個影片尤其是我看了一下他的點閱率高達21萬次他不是只是幾百次幾千次21萬次的一個影片還持續在轉傳也因此是不是針對這個部分應該要求不管YouTube應該Meta"},{"start":661.477,"end":690.249,"text":"他們針對播放次數比較多而AI生成的影片他就有責任應該要先標示說這個就是AI生成以讓觀眾在點閱的時候可以有更清楚的一個判斷是 我原來這個建議非常好我們會朝這個方向進行跟YouTube那邊去商量他可能是一個全球性的一個政策但至少我們政府有責任就要率先提出來我們也要要求這樣部分什麼時候可以再跟他們溝通也給我們一個時間表吧"},{"start":691.249,"end":708.19,"text":"OK 事實上我兩個禮拜前才去那個美國那個Google的總部跟他談過然後一個禮拜前他們又來台灣就拜訪我就是要談這件事情談好幾個議題 這其中一個重要的議題是 但是把這個議題列為是一個重要項目並且有時間表讓我們知道"},{"start":708.57,"end":726.519,"text":"OK 好 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署長早 董事長早今天的題目包括了要去購買能源 原油還有發電設備來 我的題目就是這樣來 天然氣吃緊居然在昨天的媒體報導說要一度考慮恢復藍莓機組我們知道目前在台塑的麥寮它本身它的運轉許可是還有餘裕但是它跟台電的"},{"start":56.027,"end":64.166,"text":"購電約已經中止了那麼有考慮因為中東的戰士營養天然氣供應會去要用它來作為我們緊急補我們發電的不足嗎有沒有考慮過為什麼報紙這樣寫"},{"start":69.775,"end":84.813,"text":"那個跟委員報告就是中東的戰事一發生就只是媒體的報導還是真的有這樣的一個提供請問我說明一下中東的戰事一發生事實上我們就把所有手上可以作為緊急應用的所有的機組都做的盤子所以藍媒也是選項之一"},{"start":85.734,"end":101.166,"text":"那沒事選項之外 現在全世界很多國家都在做這個選項我了解 很多國家都重啟了這個 好但是有人提到也是一樣 最近的媒體報導說有人提到說儲能系統也可以上場救援 為什麼因為用電的尖峰改用儲能設備來供電我們知道目前的儲能是它被綠電 綠能在它的這個離風時間的發電量可以存起來給尖峰用可是事實上目前並沒有"},{"start":109.793,"end":135.675,"text":"那有人說我們只要少用 監控室用少用燃氣機組這樣呢我們可以降低對天然氣的消耗而且維持安全儲量 台電支持嗎那個報告委員喔 儲能是用來挪移低尖峰的它不會產生電能我們現在需要燃料是要產生電能這是完全兩個不同的問題我知道 但是呢如果說有人說目前儲能裡面就是有電"},{"start":136.916,"end":155.298,"text":"有離峰時候存的電在我們尖峰的時候呢我們是不是降低對LNG的發電量改用儲能的電它是個容易沒錯但是總發電量記在我們的度數當中它是離峰時候產生的綠電用儲能存起來我們在尖峰的時候加進去對不對那目前如果這樣的做法有沒有在考慮"},{"start":156.889,"end":182.597,"text":"跟委員報告就是說我們現在儲能設施就已經在用在做那個離間封調度而且我們現在已經超過兩個GIGA來我們看一下實情啦過去我們繼續架構考量台電的電力交易平台根據儲能業者說因為成本價格嘛我們採定了設定採購的需求因為目前的儲能的裝置容量大於我們調度所需要常態的調度"},{"start":183.519,"end":206.892,"text":"所以費率是零啊所以設備上我就退場了我幹嘛我去除了這些尖峰時候的發電量離峰時候的發電量那我等著要給你們用你們尖峰時候不來調度但是目前如果短期的緊急支援它可以增加我們天然氣存量啊可以增加韌性啊我先請教一下如果用除能供電會增加多少購電的成本那除能供電又能增加多少供電量"},{"start":209.004,"end":236.705,"text":"儲能的狀況是這樣就像委員螢幕上面顯示的他是一個競標但是他標的是容量費率他投零元他依然會有能量費率等等的費用可以收所以實務上目前這些儲能業者說他們要退場因為他們除了能基本上台電基於價格的定價不會去跟他買好那表示說如果LNG價格繼續高漲是不是他的成本值得跟儲能業者來調度"},{"start":239.517,"end":258.335,"text":"我跟委員報告就是說如果我們在尖峰的時候遇到有需要的時候我們還是會一定都會調好那麼就把過去實質上我們調度用儲能的電來調度在尖峰的時候的用電需求的部分列出來好不好我們看一下實況案會如何業者的說法是不是有他的道理往下看其實啊 部長"},{"start":259.156,"end":271.25,"text":"其實颱風天我從小到大我們颱風天來之前大樓的水塔就會提前儲水每個人家的家裡會裝水桶也備水這是減少分散風險降低缺水危機 是不是這樣子"},{"start":272.142,"end":287.702,"text":"那我們家人會這樣國人要怎麼樣面對能源危機是不是我們要擴建跟增建LNA的儲槽就像我們在大樓的水塔多做幾座提高整體的安全存量您同意嗎我同意那另外呢這個儲能設備就像每個人家裡的什麼的水桶一樣"},{"start":289.364,"end":303.201,"text":"分散的這個供電系統當中我用儲能的把一些電先存起來以便不時之需大概就是這個概念那請問目前國家經濟部有訂定LNG儲槽擴建的目標未來的期程有沒有參考其他國家LNG的安全準量"},{"start":303.939,"end":315.993,"text":"有 我們現在大概是法定是11天那原則大概都可以到12天日本是多少明年希望可以達到14天14天 日本是多少天日本沒有定韓國是9天所以我們還優於鄰近國家但是我們的風險也高於鄰近國家"},{"start":321.94,"end":340.757,"text":"我們希望明年可以達到14天很好 那你的進程有沒有辦法趕得上我們的擴建增建的期程要趕得上這14天是 就是說這個LNG的除潮我們還是希望盡快來擴建好 那往下看喔能源韌性除了儲能之外還有多元供應你們天然氣已經分散採購了嘛剛剛你也答詢嘛說中東之外趕快跟美國集團買對不對"},{"start":342.398,"end":370.956,"text":"好 但是電力的供應那時候我也問過董事長我說是要繼續推動再生能源像地熱的發電是要增加我們的多元選項是 地熱是我們的選項但是也有人說新能 新型核電也是選項囉有沒有這樣的考慮那個是 那是未來我們未來好 可是未來就開始講了SMR這個小型的模組化供電的反應爐這個居然啊在前幾天呢有一個叫做國家原子科技研究院有沒有聽過這個單位"},{"start":373.273,"end":395.075,"text":"他是在國科會以下的財政法人 核安會的財政法人結果盤點有三種SMR基礎可以讓高階核廢大減奇怪了 我從來不曉得這個單位有在做這個研究你認為他們的研究目前的成果可以讓我們達到總統所承諾的核廢有解 核安確保 社會共識SMR目前的研究成果可以達到這三個標準要求嗎"},{"start":396.261,"end":412.998,"text":"我們現在還在觀察因為全世界的希望你們不是觀察你們要去深入掌握好不好好那我問一下其實很多人在談SMR其實它的商業價值就是以豬代壽SMR這個小型模組化核反應爐它的技術就來自於什麼來自於像美國這樣的核動力潛艦"},{"start":414.807,"end":438.309,"text":"你有聽過核動力潛艦只要加一次燃料棒它的退役之前除役之前它都不用再添加你知道這個技術吧核潛艦一燒可以用三四十年它不用添加燃料棒它一次到位那它的體積小容易移動對不對其實這就是SMR的原始模型SMR它提供的是奏電服務你用它的電力目前的商業構想是什麼樣你不用處理它"},{"start":439.59,"end":465.709,"text":"機組以後的廚藝的問題 合費的問題 通通帶回去處理就像你們辦公室的影印機啊 以前我買影印機買了之後放在辦公室裡 他買墨水匣壞掉了要找人來維修 故障了或者報廢了 我要找人來處理這個SMR的概念就像你不是買影印機 你是要求什麼租賃服務 他給你算章數計價的這是不是SMR目前所了解的商業模型"},{"start":467.441,"end":482.326,"text":"現在為止我們看到的是各國還是各做各國的這個您剛才講我是說SMR的商業模式的理解是不是這樣子那是未來但是現在還沒有看到目前沒有嘛 目前可能80還沒有半撇嘛來 我們來用傳統核電跟SMR來比重啟核電跟機載用電傳統核電用牛棚的投手"},{"start":487.048,"end":511.336,"text":"遇到了天然氣吃緊 我們上來投個兩球中繼投手 救援投手 是不是這樣子但是你不會拿它來作為機載的電力但是現在業界在期待SMR市場像指定打擊啊它每一場九個人它都固定上場打擊 它是個強棒你這樣瞭解嗎 因為兩者不同一個是電力吃緊 短缺的時候緊急備援另外一個是成本高 但是供應穩定的電力你認為對於SMR有期待的是哪一些產業"},{"start":513.445,"end":537.212,"text":"為什麼這些產業會期待SMR?SMR因為它有一點像傳統核電它規模比較小那是可以比較分散式重點在於說你不用去處理核廢啦我們再跟你分析一下主席站起來了不好意思跟趙偉再拜託一下傳統產業因為他們毛利率低他們希望能夠得到便宜的電力維持競爭力核電如果加上核後端不便宜"},{"start":538.072,"end":550.315,"text":"但是高科技產業他毛利率高他要求是穩定供應穩定供電但是呢他可以接受高電價請問你們知道目前可預期的未來SMR如果商業化他的供電價格跑出來了嗎"},{"start":552.211,"end":578.08,"text":"現在很高啦很高根本沒有啦很高是多少錢就是比他成本高非常多高非常多所以還沒有辦法商業化不是技術上做不到是商業化目前沒有辦法被產業納入考量所以請經濟部跟台電協同國科會的國研院還是原能會我也搞不清楚然後去評估一下未來你們對人家在倡議SMR的時候你要問他價格是多少"},{"start":578.78,"end":603.786,"text":"服務內容有沒有包括核報端簽約有沒有簽約對象 好不好簡單講啊 不要再隨著這些媒體的報導起舞SMR根本就是八字還沒有半撇 空中羅格這三個項目沒有出來之前 談都免談所以結論第一 請經濟部要責成台電納入儲能設備的供應電力把它納入去做個評估第二 擴建我們天然儲槽 提高供電韌性 可以嗎好"},{"start":605.326,"end":619.719,"text":"第二個你們去責成這個協同國科會或者是跟這個國語園院去請他委託他如果那麼喜歡在媒體上講SMR請他把這三個ABC提供給經濟部不然就請他閉嘴可以嗎"},{"start":622.068,"end":641.42,"text":"他是我們平行單位啦這是啊 不然他每天放這個假消息也沒有價格 也沒有服務內容 也沒有簽約對象再說要仔細評估 這樣給產業錯誤的憧憬對經濟部 你們產業發展是不利的 你同意嗎不好意思 那個 那個這個能源署 署長"},{"start":643.29,"end":662.857,"text":"你會期待SMR有這個ABC還沒出來之前你對它有什麼期待我們基本上還是會持續去了解這個資訊就是說未來到底要怎麼使用或者是說好 所以你們要掌握資訊 部長你們要掌握這個資訊不要放任這樣的錯誤的訊息 四處流傳 好不好好 謝謝 謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"168216","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168216","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/70d8fc05dcd8abb0a34a21894e8d5ba401ae777e4c72867e413b5cd1255e9444b5955a0c0d9861e65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳菁徽","委員發言時間":"09:40:59 - 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謝謝委員還有謝謝官員彭部長 謝謝麻煩彭部長這邊好"},{"start":12.952,"end":38.264,"text":"部長我先講就是我接到的一個陳情案在我們辦公室也就是有人在描述環關署呢裡面有兩個案子分別是兩位不同的科長但是他檢舉的是去年的八月中那今年已經到了三月我還持續收到陳情那我大概跟部長簡述一下這兩個案子第一個是在講一位環關署的孫姓科長"},{"start":40.284,"end":66.055,"text":"這個數位執法科的科長他在這個稽查同仁的外套採購案的時候因為經費控管的問題主管會議直接大罵同仁但是他們檢舉說跟我們澄清說居然還讓他出來選一個模範的公務員另外一案是環平的科長因為公文超過4個小時所以在下班的時候傳訊息這樣子的簡訊"},{"start":68.696,"end":93.71,"text":"來做霸凌那我想問從去年8月這個看起來是有成立的時間檢舉的時間那到現在處理的狀況如何了因為這個是黃管署我們是他是獨立機關那這個案子我是事後才會才有知道那他們也有去調查不過因為那個當事人他並沒有認為他被霸凌所以這個問題要成案還要一定的一個程序"},{"start":94.21,"end":108.811,"text":"所以這個案子已經結案了嗎我會再繼續再追查因為報告委員其實這個有時候在公務機關這種有時候主管嚴厲一點點那種不舒服的那種案件還蠻多的所以我們有一定的一個程序在做處理"},{"start":109.352,"end":133.456,"text":"您的意思是說這兩個案子分別是兩位科長但是經過調查這兩位科長所辱罵或者是說您說言語比較嚴厲的當事人兩位並沒有感受到應該是其中有一位不過因為這個是不是請我們署長因為這是獨立機關沒關係我是想請部長回覆說大概多久以內可以給我們進度您的調查進度"},{"start":134.165,"end":162.585,"text":"報告委員這一個陳情人他本身不是被霸凌的人他是看到別人所以他有反應那因為他沒有具名那所以我們就有啟動相關的霸凌的相關的會議或者是教育那這些被他講到的人我們也都有去調查他你有沒有被霸凌如果有有什麼管道可以來陳述他們都"},{"start":163.666,"end":177.905,"text":"以致說我們沒有被霸凌啦如果有的話他們會反應那我也有請外部的人來做教育訓練那訓練另外在9月16號我們也有再做一次全"},{"start":178.846,"end":204.393,"text":"全組的調查那所有的同仁都反應沒有那這是一個比較特殊的這一個組確實他是做反應執法的那這些同仁他的特性就是講話比較大剌剌的互相之間都是比較這個樣子那或許在這個部分我們在內部的教育訓練也在提醒以後講話的時候要客客氣氣要互相尊重"},{"start":205.513,"end":224.313,"text":"部長您請回所以這個案子目前目前的案子是到這個地方我先請部長回答部長因為他們是一個比較封閉看得出來署長都已經說講話比較大剌剌好像跟我接到的陳情不太一樣我可不可以請部長一個月內可以給我報告"},{"start":224.994,"end":251.952,"text":"好 這個我們會再了解啦因為假使兩位科長沒有錯我們也應該還兩位科長清白嘛 對不對那就請部長一個月給我這兩個案子的調查報告謝謝也請委員放心因為本部過去也經歷過嚴重的性騷擾事件這個我們清得很乾淨我們有一定的程序但是有時候同仁的這個心裡面的感受會不大一樣所以那個都有一個程序來界定的啦好 那再來我們就看一段影片不過我相信部長也蠻熟悉的"},{"start":254.974,"end":259.441,"text":"很多人開始在網路上流傳他們去找這些塑膠袋等等的比原本的售價已經多了兩倍了"},{"start":271.328,"end":290.18,"text":"那當然這是短期戰爭的因素可是我們不知道這件事情到底會持續多久那目前經濟部呢他有發布一個記者會他說他們會推出塑膠袋的評價專案具體的做法是等這個中油四清啊等等台塑啊企業去生產大量的這個5000噸的增產的乙烯讓下游的塑膠袋產量增產每個月會增加約12.5億個一斤的塑膠袋"},{"start":301.147,"end":321.212,"text":"那這個跟您剛的報告看在環境部的眼裡你覺得經濟部這樣子來反映你的感受是如何包委你不能夠用這樣比喻他們是穩定這個民生的習慣讓國人不會民生不要受到影響那我們是要推動減碩所以這個基本上他有他的這個這個交叉點是不大一樣的"},{"start":322.691,"end":347.937,"text":"但是它跟你的檢數是相違背的基本上委員如果說市場上我們現在買什麼東西都沒有任何的塑膠袋那個其實民眾的習慣的改變這個是衝擊是很大的我們也必須理解但是我們限塑的這個作為減少使用所以我們是用鼓勵用二手循環袋要讓民眾因為其實會用環保袋的就會自己用了但是我們覺得不夠多所以我們環境部主要是推動這個"},{"start":348.737,"end":371.315,"text":"好沒關係那等一下我就具體跟你討論一些國外的案例那這邊呢您是推了一個代代相傳剛剛你有做講解嘛這個代代相傳的活動請問現在你過去配合的業者應該蠻多的就是不管是循環杯啊等等的現在已經發布了一陣子了請問大概媒合的廠家有幾家"},{"start":371.955,"end":397.507,"text":"目前因為打電話來還有網路來的都蠻多的所以他們正在記錄那也跟我有報告那個是上禮拜四推出的在一個多禮拜的時間而已一個多禮拜大概幾家我們想知道一下精度因為我們會用量例如說現在有幾萬個了但是我們現在遇到一個挑戰就是說有些傳統市場他找不到那個人所以都要一個一個去連結所以我們一直還在討論說這個平台怎麼去建立"},{"start":397.867,"end":418.551,"text":"但是委員可以放心因為我們現在企業的ESG我們收到的認同的蠻多的他們都願意來做這個事情那我問一下剛剛您講到第一銀行跟建國華市這個第一銀行的塑膠袋他們是怎麼募集來的透過同仁二手袋他們是二手袋我們沒有募我們沒有募塑膠袋我們是募二手袋例如說它是紙袋或是環保袋"},{"start":419.456,"end":439.808,"text":"所以他們在把它捐到建國花市去使用我跟你稍微講一下這個問題點在哪裡說不定你可以想出解決的方法你現在其實就是做兩個這個表單嘛一個是提出需求的表單另外一個是可以填寫供應那當然您剛剛講到說夜市攤商可能會需要可是呢"},{"start":441.068,"end":464.641,"text":"剛剛有提到啦經濟部都已經說他會做一個月12.5億個好第一攤商會覺得說經濟部會做啊第二他也要在意顧客的感受嘛他今天可能他響應你這個政策可是要由他去說服顧客這個是很困難的這個是你遇到的痛點啊所以你會覺得你這個東西你幫自己病多久的時間以內你想媒合多少長假"},{"start":465.661,"end":483.066,"text":"委員這個是需要大量的推當社會的脈動希望委員一起來響應就會更多目前我們是很有自信目前這個媒合因為當時是趕快上線現在我們有新的做法像是一個撮合的平台甚至有一個Map一樣在哪裡可以取得我們都會做出來"},{"start":483.806,"end":488.029,"text":"那這個Map我就想跟你討論一下因為你已經推出了三個Map也是要稱讚比如說循環杯的介面這個服務是做得是不錯但是呢很少人用了點我在想你是不是考慮檢討那就去測點可是我覺得你不需要三個Map因為你現在已經有循環杯你有抗高溫糧食地圖"},{"start":503.558,"end":530.029,"text":"那現在你又有推出代代相傳這個地圖你要不要考慮把它全部整合在一起專屬於環境部的地圖這樣所有跟你們環境部相關的東西他都可以在上面找到我們現在就是往這方面去進行那你預計多久以內會達成這個現在要看他們的這個城市的進度啦因為同仁被我抄的蠻兇的所以我也不好意思給他們很大的壓力所以其實這個是我們已經列入一個計畫要趕快推動的"},{"start":531.69,"end":546.764,"text":"可能半年 三個月半年之類應該是一兩個月內就可以推動了那當然這個你剛剛有自己承認嘛你上任的時候說要啟動40處的減速事辦但是你上任是五月嘛那你六月遇到阻力所以又說要一步一步來"},{"start":547.244,"end":568.164,"text":"但是到2024年的年底你又說2030年禁用的這個目標是不變可是呢到現在2026年年初了似乎是原地踏步那當然如果說你中間有點作為的話現在可能就不會爆發這麼荒謬的一個塑膠袋之亂可是你中間剛剛你有講你遇到五個瓶頸嘛對不對對所以"},{"start":570.902,"end":581.608,"text":"不過委員這個我都去蹲點過委員你下次來跟我去蹲點你就知道遇到了什麼樣的問題但是我知道你現在幫自己設定一個新思維新目標變成2030年減量5%2035年減量10%但是我給你看一下這個是經濟部的數據"},{"start":588.431,"end":600.67,"text":"關於塑膠帶它的生產紫色的線是關於生產量因為有的是外銷的嘛關於粉紅色的線它是內銷量如果這個線的趨勢是這樣子你是如何幫自己可以訂出這個5%跟10%的KPI"},{"start":604.495,"end":621.044,"text":"那個是我說的是一個塑膠的原料的使用量不是塑膠袋那你也知道說我們這當中過去這幾年遇到一個疫情整個台灣社會結構性包含網購或是外帶的這個整個量大幅度的一個增加所以那個就是塑膠袋增加的一個很大的原因"},{"start":621.204,"end":648.295,"text":"那我具體的舉一個例子給您因為比如說台灣新加坡或者是馬來西亞或者是香港可能大家在這個夜市啊攤商消費的習慣是差不多的有一些做法我是希望你不要遇到事情是修改你的目標修改目標你可以修改你的做法不是委員你剛剛說的那個是2018年訂的那個其實社會的沒有經過充分的社會的驗證那香港呢是比我們多了三倍"},{"start":649.295,"end":675.316,"text":"香港比我們多了三倍我不用回香港當然我現在沒辦法去香港啦但是我不知道他們現在做的怎麼樣像新加坡他們其實是超市說一樣的限量沒關係我先幫你找資料我們不一定人要到那邊好不好我先跟你討論一下香港他們怎麼樣他在減速的過程他就下了法規那當然他有正痛期嘛他需要二到三年或者是最後呢最終他們需要四到五年他們才真的開始限速跟減量那"},{"start":675.936,"end":705.636,"text":"當然比如說你講的一次性備品一開始很多人也不習慣啊他去外面旅遊的時候突然都要開始自備牙膏牙刷可是現在你做了一陣子這經過震動期之後現在每個人出去旅遊都知道了那我是舉香港的例子看您要不要參考這樣子的做法他一開始呢他是規定說他知道大家買東西很不方便所以你剛有提到的湯湯水水生鮮的會滴水的比如說魚或是肉他會提供你沒有提袋的品口的袋子"},{"start":706.096,"end":714.738,"text":"可是一開始大家就會發現不管我有沒有買生鮮的或是會滴水的我就是想去拿那個袋子這個是人性所以他們反而這個提袋的減量了可是蘋果的塑膠袋大幅的上升因為不管去買菜或是買蘋果大家也去拿這個蘋果袋子用所以後來他們就發現這樣子的問題他們又再把法規收緊就規定說如果你這一單交易是生鮮的或免他就給你一個蘋果袋子"},{"start":734.542,"end":752.109,"text":"但是如果呢你最後需要這些乾貨或是水果他是不需要那就才需要到手肥或者是你就自備環保袋所以看你要不要這樣階段性的因為你剛剛提出來很多原因他不一定是每一個東西都使用他有的是乾的他不需要袋子"},{"start":752.506,"end":778.437,"text":"包委員因為香港的這種所謂的攤商夜市還有零售的沒有像我們那麼多這個香港做的我們早就做了我們的所有開發票的都必須用這個付費取得所以我們比他更前面我懂但是你會遇到一個痛點現在你怎麼好意思他們大部分都是現金交易所以你不會讓這個要收錢付費的塑膠袋的這個責任流落到攤商的老闆的身上所以委員那個我也特別"},{"start":779.037,"end":794.138,"text":"我清明年假花了很多时间去看每一个国家的详细的政策日本韩国新加坡香港甚至中国他们对于最后一里路的零售其实都没有去做直接的影响因为它是微型经济有很多的因素在里面"},{"start":794.318,"end":811.328,"text":"好那我就提出一個建議啦好第一比如說您剛提到的費這個太陽能光電把它回收那業者他就要預先繳一個大約1000元的回收清潔處理費嘛好再來環境部非常驕傲的四合一資源回收基金他就是這些"},{"start":812.108,"end":835.58,"text":"查理王這些瓶子他就必須要繳交這個空瓶的處理費這是擴大生產者的責任還有汽汽車燃油的空污費你不可能去攔下每一台車子然後跟阿伯收錢所以你會直接向中油台樹這樣子的財團有品生產者來收空氣污染防治費所以在這邊是具體跟您建議因為剛剛講了很多源頭源頭所以我們是不是要從源頭來"},{"start":836.741,"end":859.669,"text":"科稅讓生產者來延伸責任比如說我們用這個稅金來輔導塑膠袋工廠轉型為生產環保的包材同時讓傳統的塑膠袋在市場的批發價自動提高攤商自然就會減少使用他可能就會去輔導我們購買的人說你可以把這些東西全部放在一個袋子裡面你覺得這樣子可能我不是在吹現在就要做到這一波"},{"start":860.49,"end":877.71,"text":"這一波塑膠袋之亂這一波石化業成本上漲這一波結束之後你覺得環境部有沒有辦法跟經濟部一起動起來啟動對塑膠袋源頭瞌睡的可行性評估好 這個我們會來研究不過也跟委員報告我們針對有開發票的早就已經使用者付費了"},{"start":878.451,"end":888.535,"text":"現在大家爭議的是市場上最末端攤商不開發票的很多的微型經濟全台灣很多人都在靠這個工作我知道啊所以我在跟你說我在跟你說從源頭兩分鐘謝謝馬上所以這個部分不可能永遠從末端去做"},{"start":894.517,"end":914.009,"text":"去做開刀嗎這個很多的庶民他的生活行為雖然我環境部長我是認為是能夠自己帶環保帶我們也不會用塑膠袋可是很多民眾的行為當他不了解的時候他還是很依賴所以這個部分是需要文化的轉變那我們會跟經濟部來討論說如何去做得更好請問這個可行性評估大概多久以後可以去"},{"start":914.389,"end":934.682,"text":"因為這是一個很長期的因為這個是庶民經濟很多的弱勢的人或是一般的人都是在市場上工作的所以你要他成提高大幅提高的成本像這次增加一點成本他們就受不了所以基本上我是認為是要再討論那我們也也會再觀察因為這些每一個我找出那個問題就直接提供好這請環境部提供報告因為已經超過好謝謝好"}]}},{"id":"168215","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168215","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/70d8fc05dcd8abb0a1af40e033bb9c69a7afadf2dd1952ec413b5cd1255e9444642409915d7b18685ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張嘉郡","委員發言時間":"09:41:02 - 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LDPE這些看來用來製造這個民生用品的原物料也都漲了將近50% 46%等等那基層攤商反映"},{"start":55.818,"end":71.992,"text":"現在不只是袋子難買供貨商甚至不寫標價改為用實價來販售這已經不是合理的市場波動了部長經濟部目前掌握到的供應情況跟價格的波動您可不可以先說明一下呢"},{"start":73.684,"end":94.664,"text":"包委員那個實際上當然就是上油的部分因為直接反應那個原料來源會長比較多但是他會遞延事實上現在到了塑膠袋看起來我們昨天有跟這個這個就是廠商有一些座談商圈的廠商有一些座談大概差不多的確是有漲到30%漲到30%至45%左右"},{"start":98.927,"end":110.111,"text":"這個當然我們現在提出的就是說因為現在我們塑膠袋使用的這個乙烯的量大概是2.2萬噸那我們從今這個月開始會增加5500就變成27.5萬噸那這個增加了這個5000噸它可以製造的大概是12.5億個塑膠袋"},{"start":120.075,"end":134.264,"text":"所以你覺得說應該透過這個方式可以平息這個塑膠袋之亂因為呢我想請教部長部長應該也非常了解每天消耗塑膠袋封膜最大的族群是誰您知道嗎"},{"start":135.385,"end":138.208,"text":"我們知道的現在稍微比較吃緊的當然就是商圈跟夜市是 就不是一般的民眾是全台灣傳統市場裡面的這些攤商小吃然後夜市裡面的這些飲料店 小吃店 便當店等等"},{"start":154.284,"end":161.548,"text":"那對他們來說這是跟他們生計相關的剛性需求所以本席要希望說部長要為他們趕快穩定這個供應啊否則他們如果沒有這些包材的話他們連做生意都沒辦法做了"},{"start":171.354,"end":194.074,"text":"是所以昨天我們開這個座談會全台灣的商圈代表有出席那哪一部分有問題的部分我們馬上去處理解決那短期間透過一些調度的方式就是稍微長一點我們剛才提到的那個料源增加以後我們盡快增加生產出來以後然後分配給他們而且這一批我們是採用平價的"},{"start":195.215,"end":220.382,"text":"那這個部分我覺得可能也要適度的宣導因為目前本席收到的消息是經濟部你們高調宣布的是有關於協調小北百貨鎮宇五金行等等的這些塑膠袋供貨但這兩家都是末端零售大多服務的是散客對每天大量消耗成本壓力最大的這些夜市攤商來說他們"},{"start":222.222,"end":225.385,"text":"不會在那裡買啊所以我希望的是你要能夠全台呼籲因為你有呼籲的話才不會有一些不肖業者從中在壓迫一些不曉得資訊的攤商 您知道嗎 我在講什麼嗎所以現在法務部跟我們有稽查小組聯合那也去"},{"start":242.8,"end":256.916,"text":"各地的這些包括攤商您剛才提到的去了解實際的狀況那我們希望就是說不只是呼籲啦甚至有就是說法律上最好是不要有囤積跟烘焙是 這就是我下一個要講的一定要加強查緝確認說這個缺貨"},{"start":261.994,"end":279.436,"text":"不是有人在囤貨然後是能夠讓基層的這些攤商跟這些等於是這些小職業者能夠用合理的價格買到否則他們的成本不斷的拉高最後也是要投射到這個消費者端來啊"},{"start":280.597,"end":300.291,"text":"所以這個也是我們最主要的目的所以我們從這個料園的源頭然後一直到中間的生產製造商然後到通路端我們大概有分成幾個部分來做一些調度跟協調的一些工作這方面我也很相信部長有專業也一定能夠協調成功但是我也想要提醒部長的是"},{"start":301.572,"end":306.934,"text":"這個塑料供應緊張我們藥當然要減塑盡量少使用但是有一些狀況是必須的包括我們藥局的藥袋包括食品的封膜還有我們農業的這個包膜那這個幾乎都是跟食安跟醫療有關沒有替代品那經濟部有沒有針對這些民生必須的特殊包材進行盤點呢"},{"start":326.719,"end":341.647,"text":"我們有一個跨部會的協調機制就是其他部會您剛才提到衛福部還有其他部會他需要的部分我們會優先供應給他畢竟這個衛福需要的相關器材那個是比較重要的那個跟生命安全比較重要我們會優先供應"},{"start":342.327,"end":358.96,"text":"那這部分就拜託部長繼續高度關注那我想要繼續請教部長您應該很清楚說中油目前的財務狀況為了配合政策穩定物價吸收的金額聽說已經快要將近百億了"},{"start":360.837,"end":366.159,"text":"那個油價的部分目前累計吸收虧損多少大概90億左右90.6億那這個負債比我目前看起來負債比已經高達92%了那隨著這個中東的衝突如果繼續持續的話進口的油氣成本繼續墊高那這樣子的話經濟部"},{"start":383.903,"end":389.589,"text":"有沒有一個設一個虧損的上限否則這樣繼續無限制的吸收下去的話中油負擔得起嗎對所以我們當然就是吸收的部分一定是在中油它可以承受的範圍那所以這個範圍是對另外我們多少您內心有一個底是所以我們另外"},{"start":405.666,"end":423.122,"text":"也從另外一方面資金的挹注來協助中油包括有三個面向一個就是用專案融資的部分來協助它第二個就是說用撥補的方式預算撥補的方式第三個就是增資的方式三個同時並行那現在已經在運作當中啟動當中"},{"start":424.423,"end":441.258,"text":"因為本席的確是非常擔心中油的財務那我們當然都希望中油能夠以穩定民生物價為首要考量但是面對這個成本不斷的飆漲我們也不能只是靠他們不斷的吸收我們還是希望說除了這個開源之外我們也要節流"},{"start":445.802,"end":450.866,"text":"就是說能不能有效減少石油跟能源的消耗然後減輕中油的負擔就像上週本席質詢的減少公務車的使用啊是不是有一些政策可以讓我們政府帶頭能夠減少實際的這個能源消耗我不曉得部長有沒有注意到包括其他國家馬來西亞政府從4月15號起他就讓"},{"start":473.143,"end":501.236,"text":"符合條件的聯邦公務員每週最少三天居家辦公目的就是減少燃料的使用那如果公務員大規模的響應他們希望可以省下730億的燃油開支那包括泰國的總理他也決議說居家辦公甚至是隨處辦公那這個是一個具體的節流措施不曉得說部長有沒有考慮過這一點"},{"start":502.99,"end":514.703,"text":"報告委員那個泰國還有馬來西亞他們狀況比我們嚴峻那如果到需要這樣我們會跟行政院來反映如果真的需要這樣現在暫時間好像還沒有那麼樣的嚴重"},{"start":518.367,"end":525.712,"text":"我當然希望說這個戰爭趕快有一個能源危機短期之內可以有一個明確的盡頭但是這可能是一場長期抗戰本席建議我們經濟部甚至行政院應該還是要未雨綢繆參考一下國際經驗然後是不是可以開始做一些盤點甚至說一些政策的規劃否則到時候逼到眼睛來了"},{"start":547.226,"end":547.246,"text":"好"}]}},{"id":"168214","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168214","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/70d8fc05dcd8abb053b79c9b5652fe4bb9b76447cfe948db413b5cd1255e94446367c9c5a82321895ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"09:39:55 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助經濟部做這個矽光子的技術跟產業的推動那最後我們希望能夠協助我們整個社會能夠進到全民智慧生活圈好 非常謝謝主委"},{"start":63.786,"end":86.517,"text":"那世界各國都將AI視為影響未來國安國利經濟前景的關鍵那前年啊2024年本席諮詢主委的時候那對當時我國的AI準備度跟總算力的排名下滑那時候本席諮詢主委那主委那時候承諾說未來四年"},{"start":87.757,"end":109.822,"text":"2028年要讓台灣的AI準備度達全球前十名總算力達到亞洲前三名以及全球的前十名那我們先來看一下剛好這是我第二次針對這個題目來質詢主委四年還沒有到那我想問主委目前台灣的AI準備度跟總算力的排名如何"},{"start":113.943,"end":132.89,"text":"這個排名各個機構做的其實差異都蠻大的但是我們從去年到今年我們有一個很重要就是在去年的年底在台南科學園區我們國安中心也新建的一個算力中心也開幕"},{"start":133.59,"end":146.622,"text":"那我們大概會增加大概5MW的這個算力的設備但是今年我們要啟動新的Data Center的建置我們也希望那個預算能夠通過啦"},{"start":149.724,"end":175.132,"text":"如果沒有預算其實我們這個算力的增加是非常困難主委我來說一下當然這個也謝謝政府部門在整個硬體的籌備上來開始去努力那至於國際的指標當然是作為參考可是參考其實也是一個非常有所謂的指標性跟所謂的可參性就讓政府的幫忙檢驗我們政府哪些地方還要加強"},{"start":176.352,"end":197.266,"text":"那我看到資料在TOP500的超級電腦算力排名的話目前我國總算力是來到亞洲第四那接近全球前十名那這部分我覺得是給予我目前的整個方向給予肯定但是在牛津大學發布的政府AI準備度台灣從2023年的19名2024年上升為16名但是現在卻下降到2025年的26名"},{"start":205.552,"end":219.05,"text":"那去年是16名今年掉到26名掉了10名那我想請問主委因為當時主委是對於所謂全球指標部分你蠻有信心的嘛那我想請問你還有信心在後年就可以達到全球前10名嗎"},{"start":220.714,"end":246.743,"text":"我們在TOP的排名大概現在大概在13左右是那這一部分我們一一我們現在規劃努力的方向應該進到前10名應該是沒問題因為我跟主委說一下這個總名是包含民間啦那我現在談的是政府的AI準備度那政府AI準備度當然可以作為我們產業的支撐那這個排名的下滑我覺得可能"},{"start":247.583,"end":262.049,"text":"還是需要主委這邊來多加注意一下是 這個我們還是要努力的好 那這個排名它是從政府能力科技產業及資料與基礎建設三大面向評估各國政府的AI準備度"},{"start":262.609,"end":287.821,"text":"那剛剛有聽到主委有講到實際上在很多基礎建設上國會也現在在加緊努力嘛那這一點給予肯定但是在AI治理政策整合跟公共應用能力上他指出我們是相對不足所以2025年才會排名下降到26名那這一點我覺得就是打出一個警訊就是在AI治理政策整合跟公共部門應用能力上"},{"start":288.661,"end":294.126,"text":"主委你現在看到我們的困境在哪裡為什麼這個地方在國際上的評鑑覺得是相對不足的呢"},{"start":295.011,"end":323.763,"text":"台灣因為以往其實到目前為止我們都是AI硬體的製造的強國那在應用上面的確我們正在努力我們在這個剛剛提到AI新十大建設我們要推動到全民智慧生活圈的話是必須要去把那個應用的產業要建立起來所以這一部分我們今年啟動了一些計畫希望能夠逐步的展現成效未來幾年是比較樂觀的好"},{"start":325.043,"end":351.258,"text":"那除了前面兩項評比我看到國科會過去提供的資料當中還有一個是有英國的TOTOIS顧問機構所發布的全球人工智慧指數那2025年最新評比結果我們台灣在93個國家當中排名第16美國跟中國大陸是第一名跟第二名而新加坡是排名第三韓國第五日本第十一都是領先我國"},{"start":352.279,"end":380.462,"text":"那雖然在這個評比當中AI基礎建設排名是第七 屬前段班但一樣是在AI人才開發能力跟商業生態系這些部分都比前一年相較它得到的分數比較低啦那這個我覺得也是一個警訊那我想請問主委你怎麼去看待這份報告那台灣是全球半導體你剛才講到最重要的生產基地我們在硬體尤其在民間的部分我們是非常的強"},{"start":381.903,"end":392.831,"text":"而且我國的經濟規模財富水準都不輸人但是在整體AI發展還沒有辦法進到全球實名之內這點是不是低於你的預期你覺得要不要再努力一下"},{"start":393.727,"end":415.503,"text":"我們的確是要朝這個方向努力沒有錯謝謝委員的提醒我們過去在硬體的製造基本上都是提供給國外這些大廠但是從去年開始我們也台灣民間的廠商也大幅的投資他們大幅的投資的原因也是因為政府提出AI新十大建設以後他們覺得將來我們會推動這個應用"},{"start":418.385,"end":433.624,"text":"因為算力的設備建置完不應用的話它是浪費掉的,是非常龐大的投資所以除了政府的投資,引導民間也投資我們希望未來這幾年大幅度的來提升我們的應用讓這個排名可以"},{"start":434.665,"end":456.399,"text":"往正面的發展那另外我覺得裡面有一個我覺得特別值得我們大家來參考的就新加坡嘛新加坡在AI國力排名第三僅次於美國跟中國大陸那事實上我們也看到新加坡對於AI也是投入了非常多的一些心力那政府到民間對於AI的應用也做得很徹底"},{"start":457.159,"end":482.604,"text":"那我也看到相關的一些資料新加坡有70%的公司用AI75%的人民用AI那全國動員鋪天蓋地就是要藉AI提高生產力然後政府也推動相關的人才培訓我想問一下我們的主委我們有針對台灣我們現在目前這個AI使用的狀況比如新加坡有70%的公司用AI那我們現在這個"},{"start":484.204,"end":508.29,"text":"大中小各型企業使用AI的比例的調查或是我們全國人民現在開始使用AI大概有多少比例您知道嗎台灣的比例應該是蠻低的那我同意新加坡不管政府還是民間在AI的使用其實是比例是蠻高的我有一個具體建議給主委啦就是說你剛也承認說我們台灣這兩項比例相對較低但是我覺得"},{"start":509.37,"end":526.735,"text":"這是一個直觀的說法我覺得國科會現在既然AI作為你們重要的一個業務的話你國科會也考慮發佈類似的所謂的一些調查進行類似的調查來去看看台灣人民針對所謂AI的使用以及企業針對AI的使用的狀況"},{"start":527.555,"end":542.848,"text":"但如果建立逐年的比較的話國會會員就會比較知道說到底我們哪些地方進步了哪些地方是我們弱勢可以補強不知道主委可以做這件事情嗎好 謝謝委員這個建議很好啦對我們會採納好那最後還是要"},{"start":544.028,"end":570.958,"text":"請主委思考一下事實上從入礦巡邏 社區報休超市用AI智慧推車人民用AI偵測炸機出入境通關醫療流程到知識服務交通管理這些在AI在新加坡的民眾的日常生活已經都可以看到那裡面甚至有一樣東西我覺得主委你也可以跟各部會來協調就是地鐵站甚至引用AI的手語翻譯虛擬的人他可以用把即時廣播變成手語"},{"start":572.218,"end":592.677,"text":"能夠來服務聽障人士也就是說他對於所謂的我們的所謂的身心障礙人士的透過AI的輔助應用這一點也開始加強去應用那這一點我覺得國科會這邊的話也可以跟各部會一起來協調怎麼樣讓AI更方便的讓台灣人民進入到這個智慧生活跟便利生活謝謝主委"}]}},{"id":"168204","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168204","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/70d8fc05dcd8abb0252c47c948c5ff5aa7afadf2dd1952ec413b5cd1255e94440be9ff9e72e124835ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱議瑩","委員發言時間":"09:21:59 - 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長你們可以回答一下3500億能撐多久如果中油這次增資不成功的話中油還可以撐多久"},{"start":164.795,"end":192.39,"text":"来董事长中油公司可以称多少其实看这个中东事件它所影响的期间到达什么样一个范畴我想说明就是说增资三千五百亿的考虑当然中东这个事件是临时发生在月初我们提出来的三千五百亿主要的原因是两项第一个就是去填补在去年年底我们的累计亏损"},{"start":193.342,"end":197.184,"text":"第二個就是114年的累計虧損另外一個就是為了天然氣對能源轉型來講天然氣相關計畫的韌性的提升為了未來的韌性提升所需要的資金做一個統整提出3500億的需求"},{"start":215.843,"end":240.755,"text":"這個這個董事長你還是沒有完全回答我的問題那這三千五百億夠不夠你花你現在講的這一些包括任性的需求能源轉型的需求 你可以講一下嗎這三千五百億要花多久那現在不知道立法院會不會通過喔藍白的委員不曉得會不會支持這個增資案喔所以增資案如果沒過立法院沒通過的話 中油還能夠撐多久"},{"start":242.089,"end":264.722,"text":"因為行政院現在協助中油的部分大概有三個面向一個是專案融資專案融資也謝謝行政院秘書長在幫我們做這個跟香港還有其他的銀行來做協商第二個就是撥補的部分用預算來撥補是用特別預算還是怎麼樣的預算來撥補填補這個就是吸收的這個部分"},{"start":265.302,"end":288.26,"text":"那增資的這個部分主要還是用來未來投資之用剛剛董事長有特別提到了將來有很多的設備需要投資下去部長你講到的這些錢還是都要立法院通過不管是不是用特別預算對今年度的總預算都沒過了你的特別預算要編在哪裡要編在哪一年度特別預算要怎麼處理如果"},{"start":289.605,"end":318.102,"text":"立法院藍白主導的立法院持續不通過預算持續不給錢中油能夠撐多久這個你們都一直不敢正面回答這個問題喔第二個我要談的就是說中油現在講的都是進口我們一直在談進口能源嘛包括要跟美國採買包括這個ART要去跟美國採買你的強化韌性還是都是在進口中油其實過去自己是有投資的"},{"start":320.013,"end":342.421,"text":"包括你們投資的其他的礦田 印尼 厄瓜多 甚至查德你們其實都是有投資的那我不知道從什麼時候開始過去的投資事業 合約到期之後 一個一個都收起來了你們現在唯一還有持續在投資的也是現在在幫你們賺錢的是查德的油田 對不對董事長 是不是這樣"},{"start":343.322,"end":359.524,"text":"是的一個公司一個完整的能源公司的營運其實你是不是應該透過上游有一些開採下游有一些進口其實你的開採跟進口不能說它比重是相同但是你還是要有一些比例上的分配"},{"start":360.505,"end":372.696,"text":"現在看起來中油大概仰賴進口的比重已經超過90%你們自己的碳採你們自己的開採投資海外礦區的投資是不是已經完全停滯"},{"start":374.127,"end":393.922,"text":"那現在中東戰火這樣子過去投資查德的錢投資查德的這個計畫目前看起來算是短暫有幫中油有獲取到的一些利益喔但是未來呢在整個能源公司在中油整個能源配置"},{"start":395.592,"end":404.619,"text":"的計畫裡頭你們有沒有什麼新的想法或者是更精進更積極的作為這個是董事長要回答嗎謝謝邱委員的指導確實我們在國外的礦區裡面這幾年查的礦區是給我們帶來收益"},{"start":415.543,"end":434.175,"text":"那麼對於這個國外礦區的部門發展目前是訂出來在119年我們所謂的國外的自由遊園要達到10%那現在大概不到5%了後續我們會加倍努力那麼我們也訂出一些優先順序"},{"start":435.496,"end":461.152,"text":"所謂優先順序就是以權益併購為主要因為它比較快速就可以取得遊園同時對於政經環境比較優良的地區也當成首選譬如說美國北美地區或是澳洲這個當成是一個首選那麼第二個順位就是像東南亞這些國家這些也當成第二個選擇總之我們在119年要達到10%的目標"},{"start":465.667,"end":481.907,"text":"119年能夠達得到嗎我現在看起來中油第一個你已經快要破產快要沒錢了你連自己國內的營運都已經快要成問題了更何況你是要去併購或者是要去海外做投資你的錢在哪裡如果增資不成功"},{"start":483.072,"end":493.843,"text":"如果特別預算的撥補不成功我很擔心中油會撐不下去這個也是經濟部應該這是迫在眉睫要去處理的問題部長這個可能"},{"start":496.625,"end":512.005,"text":"可能還是要請你們跟立法院的委員們多多拜託啦那這個也要讓大家了解到整個戰火整個這個戰爭影響到了國際的能源的議題包括中油你不能一直叫中油這個吸收成本中油連續虧損七年"},{"start":514.601,"end":539.529,"text":"那這個虧損政府其實早就應該要做一些政策性的調整來協助中油包括我剛剛講的你們的海外探勘海外的礦區的配置這一些投資其實應該都要納在你們未來的年度計畫裡頭這個可能要重新去思考整個中油未來的營運好不好謝謝委員指教"}]}},{"id":"168212","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168212","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/70d8fc05dcd8abb0db7978df47f35d01a7afadf2dd1952ec413b5cd1255e9444f0c0b32b082070385ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪毓祥","委員發言時間":"09:31:05 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MOU的正式文本所以經貿行政院經貿臺灣代表也沒有送給我們任何正式officially的"},{"start":55.339,"end":66.29,"text":"我總結就是美國在這一個ARTIK NO MORE EURO是打出全壘打我們台灣就犧牲打犧牲得很徹底為什麼這麼說我把這一個時間總整理一下為了讓各位看一下"},{"start":76.212,"end":100.492,"text":"在過去之前我們的產業大佬童子賢提出核二核三研議分燃模式等等核能是乾淨能源郭志輝也講了但總統府他說我並沒有授意童子賢談這樣的事情2024年的9月4號AIT就提出三個核心要務其中韌性明確的指導能源合作是一個關鍵議題"},{"start":102.507,"end":125.839,"text":"當AIT談完之後我們的立場就開始有點鬆動我們的卓榮泰院長就說了立法院質詢時核能三原則核安核廢跟社會共識這三個議題國發會也補了一刀說AI產業會讓我們的電力需求30%所以不排斥作為核能源的選項到了2025年的3月10號"},{"start":128.547,"end":146.569,"text":"AIT再發表一個談話美國準備好供應核能技術跟LNG可以作為台灣可靠的能源這能源包括了核能好了2025年3月11號行政院就講不排除在核能有安全共識底下開始"},{"start":147.236,"end":169.725,"text":"中油3月20號2025年3月20號就簽署了阿拉斯加液化天然氣的投資意向書投資意向書沒有說你一定要投資我知道你等一下方董事長會這樣回我明白在2025年的話一直下去了這邊就開始巴拉巴泰度開始做一些的調整整個包含行政院中油"},{"start":171.192,"end":182.884,"text":"一直到了2026年2月13號我們簽的ART MOU其中擴大採購的天然氣跟原油部分是444億電力設施是252億美元對不對金貿代表沒錯吧"},{"start":190.512,"end":215.403,"text":"在2026年3月20號AIT就準備好各種能源技術面向滿足台灣的需要說我美國準備好了可以供應你台灣的需要3月21號2026年3月21號就在AIT的隔天總統府賴總統就是宣布可能我們可以評估核二核三的重啟講了一個很好的話"},{"start":216.723,"end":240.809,"text":"我們要因應未來的AI的算力需求以上這些都是新聞大事記就很奇怪美國AIT講的話之後我們的配合的發言跟這個言論你就會讓大家覺得說奇怪了我們一切好像不是你們所講的我的虧損我的中東戰爭這個在中東戰爭發生之前就在鋪陳"},{"start":245.091,"end":260.888,"text":"當然我知道你們也不敢回答我也沒有讓你回答我只是把這個羅列出來讓全國的民眾去看得到這整個世界我就覺得奇怪我們回到中油這邊我們請中油的方董事長"},{"start":264.141,"end":283.654,"text":"就是剛剛講的這些的採購我其中有一塊阿拉斯加的這個採購他的一個預算如果按照中有過去持股這個所謂的卡達NFE大概5%我如果抓你們6.5%的話大概你們可能需要28.61到45.5億"},{"start":287.13,"end":312.919,"text":"也就是說民間對你阿拉斯加的評估總投資金額440億到700億那如果我們用這個第一種方案就是你們台美日韓四國去軍攤大概平均就是110億所以如果你把它乘以30點多我們匯率就算30大概就3000多億所以當時你提出來的增資3500億跟這有沒有關係"},{"start":318.365,"end":344.314,"text":"三千五百億增資跟阿拉斯加這個案沒有關係一點關係都沒有沒有關係好那你說沒有關係我覺得還是有關係啊你現在說我沒有啊我只核准你一千六百多億啊我如果把它分四期第一期的話大概就八百七十五億啊那我四期乘下來還是三千兩百多億如果說你這個都不是阿拉斯加油田的增資那你阿拉斯加油田的那些的拆採如果將來要開採那你的錢哪裡來"},{"start":348.192,"end":357.345,"text":"首先對於阿拉斯加投資案目前中國公司還沒有收到美方提供的一些詳細資料明白但是你要準備好資金啊"},{"start":358.345,"end":382.128,"text":"所以現在來講沒辦法去做確認要不要投資我是幫你算啦如果你現在的1687億的增資經濟部核准的話大概阿拉斯加第一期大概是858億你的累計quotient按照你報告是792加起來大概是1650億也蠻接近的那你日後再做增資嘛"},{"start":383.652,"end":409.941,"text":"是不是應該是這樣子不是方案一就是方案二我想不出你還有什麼其他東西應該就是說第一個投資的總額還會確定第二個投資的比例也會確定第三個它整個開發的自有資金跟貸款的比例也都不確定好沒關係這是我合理的懷疑我知道你也不敢承認也不敢說特別說不考慮這樣子的狀況"},{"start":411.201,"end":433.83,"text":"因為我們增資的目的就如同剛剛我們部長講增資的目的絕對不是打虧增資的目的是為了要什麼改善然後創造更多的盈餘收入但是我真的想不出你的改善為什麼要花那麼多錢我想不出來因為我也開過公司我也做過產業所以我幫你想的方案是這樣你不承認也沒關係再來我們請台電再給我一點時間"},{"start":438.668,"end":461.285,"text":"這裡頭電力設備的採購是252億美金大概7560億那我也幫台電算了一本帳假設我把核二核三的重啟的費用抓一下對不對包含你西路的檢查設備的汰換然後一座核三大概600億假設核二也差不多好了我們就算他是1200億到1300億"},{"start":463.607,"end":491.185,"text":"然後我也幫你把天然發電器的這些機組採購算進來大概包含你的協和興達大應該是大塔那邊對不對關於那邊大概我抓一下2024億加起來大概也才差不多3600多億所以我們250億的美金電力設備採購如果我這幾個加起來你也會飽滿核電的重啟跟燃料棒包含我們燃氣機組我們假設都這樣沒採購好了"},{"start":493.151,"end":520.023,"text":"那這樣子還剩4300多億我就想問台電當時在ART簽這一個250億美金電力採購你有被人說要採購什麼項目嗎我跟委員報告那個上面寫了好多項目不是只有台電250億不是只有你你看那個上面內容寫了很多還有什麼設備等等的一大堆東西不是那台電的項目會是什麼"},{"start":520.779,"end":536.011,"text":"那個台電的項目是這樣我們提供的資訊就是接下來因為我們要蒸汽減煤嘛所以我會增加天然氣的基礎採購我預計要做的天然氣基礎的採購那這大概是占多少"},{"start":536.491,"end":552.642,"text":"包含大齡的機組通宵的機組等等這些都要用依據採購法來辦公開採購那已經採購的像剛才我要講的大齡跟通宵那通宵機組就不是美國得標啊通宵機組是日本我們現在沒有得標我現在問你說採買項目跟這個你到時候再列一個報告給我因為我想要問的是經貿談判代表"},{"start":559.286,"end":584.441,"text":"就當時這252億啊 到底要買什麼你不要又給我變成是1.25兆的國防軍購啊我也不曉得要買什麼東西啊這是我擔心的啊 我不反對你們買啊但買的要有價值嘛 對不對那這個錢 我就算出來就是4300億台幣不知道多少一度好 那我最後 再不太用時間了後面就是從這邊開始 好不好 謝謝這樣可以嗎"},{"start":586.55,"end":586.57,"text":"好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168211","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168211","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/70d8fc05dcd8abb01d4e4c3ce3fbc3c8b9b76447cfe948db413b5cd1255e9444252e743352ce73015ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"柯志恩","委員發言時間":"09:28:34 - 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你自從上任之後呢其實對這個學界也是愛之深責之切不過你現在很顯然是三罵學界那當然可以 我們來看一下第一個你認為花這麼多錢沒有諾貝爾得助很丟臉"},{"start":24.801,"end":51.749,"text":"第二个呢你说像目前的陆文达就是看他的数量案件记仇也蛮丢脸的第三个呢你认为学术界因为每个人在骂说政府投资资源太少那你认为政府做了很多所以这种说法很看不起我知道那个主委你很想投好球可是以这种说法来说真的就是像抱头一样那你自己也曾经在清大当副校长成大副校长也在南台科大担任校长"},{"start":52.429,"end":79.98,"text":"在当行政主管的时候你其实有权利来做这些的改变那你觉得那个时候你的学校有没有这些的规项有在我任内都有改变你在的时候都有改变所以说呢你到目前为止接任国科会的时候面对这些问题来说的话你又做了哪一些的改变跟成效你认为你讲的这些话里面对于学术界里面有一些的微词你有需要做一些修正吗"},{"start":81.985,"end":102.296,"text":"這個方向還是一樣那國科會已經做了很多的改變我們在所有的這個計畫的申請獎勵的評量等等我們是依照這個方向什麼樣的方向你是說標論目前還是說你是標去寫太多的論文的數量不考慮數量考慮質量我從來沒有講過不要寫太多論文"},{"start":105.848,"end":132.689,"text":"不是用论文的数量来评量老师的成就所以不要扭曲我的意思我从来没有说不要写太多论文 从来没有讲我也没有说你说不要写太多论文你刚刚讲了我刚刚讲说 拜托我刚刚讲说是隐居你的说法很多论文上论见忌仇 实在丢脸诸位 我是引用你的说法"},{"start":133.069,"end":151.314,"text":"我也试图让你有澄清希望人家不要去扭曲你的意思这个事情我是绝对反对的我当然也反对啊但是我只是来告诉我们不要正面这个我只是告诉你说目前学界对于你这样的一个说法丢脸这个说法他们是有意见的我只是告诉你连我也丢脸不是只有他"},{"start":152.094,"end":173.506,"text":"所以你现在已经到了一个学界的程度里面我们就来看一下这个部分来说以基础科学来说完全同意你的这个部分来到我们一直强调基础研究是非常的重要基础研究跟应用研究跟技术发展来说的话基础研究其实在这个比例上面其实还是低于其他两个这个层面"},{"start":174.329,"end":191.672,"text":"那很多人我们基础研究我们台湾的学者的数量是在减少的是我们的经费年年在增加所以每个人平均得到的研发的经费都在增加当中那目前为止论的数目不断在减少你觉得这个问题在哪里"},{"start":192.233,"end":208.21,"text":"是人口在减少啊还是我们对基础研究投入的这个学者专家会越来越少因为整个国家的政策对于所谓的技术还有对应用科学里面来说他们认为可以获得的比率比较高会不会是因为这个缘故"},{"start":209.062,"end":232.625,"text":"我們的學者平均得到的計畫補助的件數在提高得到的計畫每個計畫補助的金額都在提高當中但是我們的博士生在減少委員都知道了所以我們未來在這基礎研究部分裡面有沒有辦法跟其他應用或在這個跟所謂的技術的層面裡面等量其關這是我們要的因為我們都認為基礎研究是一切研究的一個基礎"},{"start":233.186,"end":251.175,"text":"我們只是不想讓他這個論文書不但在減少的過程當中讓投入基礎研究的人會越來越少這是本席質疑的重點我覺得主委我剛說是抱頭我現在是試圖讓你有一個可以澄清的一個機會不要扭曲我的想法同樣都是來自一個學界我不會認為你說論文是如何所以說你不要用這樣的態度來面對本席我覺得這不是討論事情的方式我還是強調"},{"start":256.337,"end":272.084,"text":"不能只用论文的数量我也同意啊因为太多学者专家太多太多亲近的人员因为论文数不够让他们在未来学术界当中受到非常大多很多没有办法这点我完全同意啊所以在我任职的学校"},{"start":273.206,"end":289.243,"text":"我盡量再修改辦法用比較公平的評量當然是啊我們也認為應該用多元的評量的方法嘛這個我們得到一個共識嘛我只認為說大家這種這件事情上面不需要再說什麼不斷在評論我是讓你有誠信的你反而誤解我的意思因為他們沒有改我才會講啊他們沒有改什麼"},{"start":289.924,"end":306.018,"text":"改這個憑良的辦法那你現在當國會主委你再給大家做這個部分你改的部分裡面有沒有一直得到所謂成效上面的改進嘛現在就是慢慢引導這個是需要時間的國科會已經改了因為國科會也是以前也曾經使用"},{"start":306.578,"end":330.259,"text":"是五年来之后你如果说是部分你要把过去五年你的paper的产量弄因为你可以加权多少以至于有很多的人在这个过程里面因为过去的学术量不够让他每次申请国科会的时候都受到非常大的阻碍这是事实嘛对不对过去是这样嘛这个评量全部也都是全国的学者一起在互评嘛是啊所以国科会已经把这个规则已经改了我们去年就改了"},{"start":330.879,"end":340.07,"text":"去年嘛 對不對嘛所以我們就來看看嘛你未來這個部分裡面有沒有因為這樣的一個改變讓更多的人來去看待嘛這是我們共同的期待嘛這點共識沒有問題嘛 對不對我們就花時間我們就看看會不會改變"},{"start":345.856,"end":368.106,"text":"所以说大家都知道你要投好球但是很多话讲的太直我觉得这就是个抱头我们来看一下这个第三园区这个有关于我们高雄的部分因为这属于南科的这个范围当中目前来说我们是不是有已经很确定我们的P6台积电的扩敞因为我们看到这个南科有一个扩敞的一个计划很显然很像是P6是要在南子区来建厂嘛"},{"start":369.706,"end":388.833,"text":"P6台積電已經提出它的需求現在高雄市政府也很努力我們都很希望能夠在這個地方但是還是要經過我們二階環評當然是 而且最重要的是我們跟水跟電的問題因為那時候為了要友善環境也符合你剛剛說的永續所以我們希望能夠用到再生水的這個層面"},{"start":389.773,"end":417.191,"text":"但是我们检视一下目前来说整个再生水的这个层面来说平均大概10万CMD嘛那我们也希望高雄市政府也推动的桥头再生水厂的这个层面但是你这样怎么加加减减来说我说实在的这个水如果你在这个P6再进来的话真的是用水上会有很大的一个问题哦以再生水来说的话所以我现在只是问说南科有没有考虑自己能够来盖这个再生水厂"},{"start":417.771,"end":427.637,"text":"報告委員高雄市政府在國會協助之下已經把楠梓的再生水廠也加進來了所以楠梓跟橋頭兩個所以這個水目前來說的話面對P6廠目前這個水量"},{"start":433.84,"end":463.5,"text":"你认为是没有问题然后也不会也不会影响到我们的民生用水吗因为量的那电的部分我们再来看一下因为你可以看得出来台电在过去的时候呢它有供电还有跟需求量这个部分里面他们之前有可是呢在修正完之后目前我没有看到规划用电的需求我没有看到规划因为水跟电是非常重要的所以我们强烈要求这一块也要盯紧因为这一块盯紧的话我们才有办法不然的话没有电目前为止我没有看到这个电的规划"},{"start":463.82,"end":473.291,"text":"沒問題我們對這個部分你一定要來做這樣的一個處理水電的處理大家都希望但是這個水電就重點是不要因為這麼用水用量大度的這個廠影響到民生所以這個要保證絕對是有最後一個我們來問一下有關AI"},{"start":478.857,"end":504.116,"text":"AI的导入我也刚刚也看到了那目前为止我们也经过国际的一个认证包括台湾2号3号跟创建1号目前为止我们在有关于这个建构的大共同的模型算力基础的建设上面这个部分是没有问题的那我想请问目前我们各单位特别是国防部有跟你们讨论要把这个AI应用到这个里面他们的计划当中吗"},{"start":504.841,"end":532.787,"text":"目前目前没有目前没有为什么我要问这个问题因为像现在目前在中东战争当中美国是大力的用他们的算力来去做而且他们建构了非常多的中心但是呢他也常常会变成因为是一个非常的精准的这个层面来说的话所以也让很多人把他当做是一个破坏的一个很大的一个基地因为怕他太过精准然后会会会对他们伊朗的本土造成很大的损害那我们高雄其实也有"},{"start":533.487,"end":544.203,"text":"因應這樣一個需求也有所謂的AI算力的專區那我其實比較擔心在這個民用跟軍用的這個層面AI到底要怎麼樣它的倫理怎麼樣為什麼呢為什麼要提出這個部分因為美國來說的話有一個美國的AI公司叫Anthony Pick"},{"start":549.731,"end":575.55,"text":"因为他目前为止完全的不要让这个这个美国的国防部来跟他们做这样的一个合作所以是川普非常的不高兴他甚至把他当作是一个国家安全构成供应链风险因为他们认为这个AI用在国防还是有它伦理的这个层面所以它会引起国防跟商业的伦理这个层面我们AI基本法已经通过了主委你有没有在这个层面上面去做一些的规范"},{"start":575.99,"end":593.549,"text":"否则把AI放在未来的战争当中其实对人类来说是一个相当大的挑战有没有这样的一个规划我们AI基本法已经通过了对那在AI基本法里面我们没有讨论到这一块我们没有讨论这一块但是我们明确地讲我们政府的这个施政"},{"start":594.834,"end":623.817,"text":"一定要依照这个AI基本法的规范没有我个人认为说你这一块其实还应该再做一些界定因为在全世界当中都已经面临了军事应用跟商业伦理很多人认为说AI把它用在国防特别是在做一个攻击的层面上面是有伦理的问题这是未来可能会发生的所以我说即使是通过但是这方面的拟定跟这方面的未来的一个可能再进去更明确一点否则这个部分来说会造成非常大非常大的一个问题不过国"},{"start":624.697,"end":649.828,"text":"國防的這個議題不在國科會的主政範圍啦這是當然是但是你們在AI的這個部分所以我才剛你課跨部會裡面有沒有來跟你們做更大的一個研商因為這畢竟未來都會是來全面性的來去做這樣子的一個處理跟應用的如果國防部要跟國科會來討論這個事我們會跟所以目前沒有目前沒有那目前AI基本法裡面也還沒有上位要有"},{"start":650.388,"end":673.147,"text":"是否可以广泛的运用目前为止也都还没有做这样的一个规划跟处理目前没有因为AI基本法里面其实是对保障人权是已经很明确的讲出来有七个项目在人权的保障上所以这部分我认为是没有问题的我们就来看看吧不过还是把它放在这个部分因为未来可能你都会应用得到好不好好 谢谢 谢谢委员"}]}},{"id":"168209","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168209","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/70d8fc05dcd8abb0ec43762381ea7afb2d46cf68b7d09b75413b5cd1255e94447f0c5e2542c48c5b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李貞秀","委員發言時間":"09:16:29 - 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釋憲是需要有標的所以立委能釋憲的標的就是修法後的結果所以我們"},{"start":146.687,"end":161.565,"text":"先努力這個推進進行18歲公民權的相關修法後面才有釋憲的門票所以希望朝野委員共同來支持18歲公民權的修法提案讓我們有申請這個憲法法庭"},{"start":162.906,"end":184.701,"text":"來裁判18歲是否合憲的機會那把憲法的層次的議題交由憲法法庭去來定奪它的合憲性當然我也覺得這個議題我們要需要通過公聽會來整密的討論這個當然也有可議的空間期待大家通過公聽會再做詳細的討論也請主席未來再召開公聽會來處理這個議題以上 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168205","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168205","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/70d8fc05dcd8abb0d857ffee239e4e9ea880c499b9dfae52413b5cd1255e9444ce33abcfce886a825ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳昭姿","委員發言時間":"09:27:28 - 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影響案件的走向的工具這不是紀律問題喔 而是對於司法最根本的一個破壞因為一旦檢查體系開始用媒體來辦案那麼法官還沒有判 社會已經先定罪證據還沒有出來 輿論已經形成了程序正義完全被輿論操作所取代"},{"start":144.673,"end":159.146,"text":"沒有人可以否認的是檢查總長的權利如果沒有界限的話就是政治武器所以刑事法學者很早就講得非常清楚檢查一體制度是為了統一法律適用不是為了讓權力集中影響個案但現在最大的問題是檢查總長的職務成績權職務移轉權是否有備用來影響敏感案件是否存在 對"},{"start":169.515,"end":180.883,"text":"誰來辦案這個本身就很有政治的意義如果這個問題不能被正面來回答那麼檢察總長就不再只是司法官而是案件分配的政治決策者"},{"start":181.912,"end":200.839,"text":"最危險的不是辦錯案而是選擇性辦案各位司法最可怕的不是偶爾辦錯案而是同樣的事情有人被辦有人不被辦同樣的標準套在不同人身上結果完全不同這才是真正摧毀人民信任的原因今天柯文哲案所以引起巨大的爭議不是因為他是誰"},{"start":202.139,"end":216.401,"text":"而是因為人民開始懷疑是不是顏色不同標準就不同檢察總統現在面對的已經不是法律問題而是信任危機我們必須誠實面對一件事現在的問題不是制度寫的好不好而是人民信不信"},{"start":217.888,"end":239.041,"text":"當人民開始感受檢察機關會配合政治節奏偵查資訊可以被操作案件可以被選擇性的處理那麼再完美的法律條文都沒有用了我覺得今天的人事案本質是一次對司法信任的投票所以今天立法院的責任不是單純審查一個人而是要問這個被提名的人能不能讓人民重新相信"},{"start":240.106,"end":248.058,"text":"檢察機關不是執政者的工具能不能做到面對政治壓力時不低頭不配合不選擇性辦案檢察總長這個位置不是為了服務任何一個政黨而存在"},{"start":255.131,"end":280.707,"text":"它存在的唯一目的是讓人民相信法律對所有人都是一致的都是一樣的如果做不到這一點 再多的改革 再多的口號都是沒有用的都只會讓人民更加不信任司法我想大家都知道 根據任何民調目前台灣人民對司法的信任度已經一直在遠離及格分數 甚至是死當大家都知道吧 大概只有三四成嘛"},{"start":282.152,"end":299.994,"text":"當司法被死當了我們還奢談民主嗎所以這是今日檢察官人事案公聽會最重要的省思如果司法被死當了如果司法的信任度被人民死當了我們台灣還奢談民主嗎以上 謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"168210","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168210","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/70d8fc05dcd8abb0e7e7d2eb9479da532d46cf68b7d09b75413b5cd1255e9444252e743352ce73015ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"09:20:18 - 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廉潔性"},{"start":208.484,"end":225.283,"text":"也不是屬於黑金槍毒的特定重罪也不是第八款的一般刑事犯罪的被判處重罪的情形所以基本上相較之下都是輕罪的那現行的規定是嫌疑人如果經檢察官為還起訴處分就可以參選"},{"start":229.628,"end":257.284,"text":"所以不要說這是為了幫蘇清泉脫罪老實說蘇清泉以前的是緩起訴所以他不是緩刑其實緩起訴就沒有受規範了本來就可以選了雖然他後來緩起訴被撤銷但是呢我請大家來講這不是為某個人量身定制我的意思是這樣即便他是國民黨的我仍然還是跟大家講不要這樣子直接就"},{"start":258.565,"end":272.586,"text":"認為說他得到好處啦 老實說那還起訴的本來就可以參選那被檢察官起訴以後如果法官判六個月以下的徒刑一顆罰金的話也可以參選"},{"start":273.467,"end":302.143,"text":"那第九款現行在三年前把它改成說只有在法院判決緩刑的時候就不能夠參選所以由法官和檢察官來控制人不能參選的資格這個狀況其實是老實說也有一些風險的從檢察官緩起訴案法院給緩刑的角度來說都是認為犯罪情節輕微而且不需要入監服刑"},{"start":303.183,"end":309.988,"text":"而且連罰錢都不用所以相較於要去關的相較於可以議科罰金的就是法官認為他連罰錢都不用是罪行最輕微不需要的那這個罪行的最輕微的不需要的結果不能參選再從法院判決的角度來看給緩刑其實是要給他自新的機會的必要結果變成"},{"start":328.681,"end":332.246,"text":"沒給緩刑的可以參選給緩刑的反而不能參選這個是完全不合理法官認為說給你自薪都不用處罰也不用繳錢也不用關結果這種人不能參選然後法官判說一定要關的或者是"},{"start":345.643,"end":360.579,"text":"去要繳錢的罰錢的這種人可以參選從第八款案第九款來看的話你會覺得這裡面真的很不合理再對照第八款來講同樣是犯第一到六款以外的罪名"},{"start":361.88,"end":390.859,"text":"第八款是一到六款以外的罪名但是是最輕本刑最低是七年以上是重罪的但是要經法院判處十年以上有期徒刑才確定不能參選也就是說如果法院判決九年可以參選八年可以參選九八七六五四三二一通通都可以參選結果第九款的是輕罪的判了緩刑的結果他是不能參選的"},{"start":392.18,"end":419.445,"text":"那這個是從第八款和第九款來比較如果從第九款本身來比較的話光是第九款的規定裡面結果反而是法院判決兩年以下的喔然後呢可以同意宣告緩刑的不能選但是呢一顆罰金的可以選同一種罪行然後輕罪的判一顆罰金的可以選判那個緩刑的不能選"},{"start":420.245,"end":435.676,"text":"所以這次的修法 上一次的修法就是這樣 讓他輕重失衡那違反了比例原則 憲法規定的你要符合公共利益結果我們上一次的修法是判9年的可以選 判緩刑的不能選判一顆罰金的可以選 判緩刑的不能選 判重的人可以選 判輕的人不能選"},{"start":444.642,"end":450.869,"text":"所以這次的修法不是要幫誰去解套不是也不是什麼鬆綁在上一次修法以前"},{"start":455.732,"end":476.351,"text":"緩刑本來就可以選是上次才給他改成緩刑不能選是上次才改成九年可以選緩刑不能選是上一次的修法把一哥罰金可以選緩刑不能選把重罪可以選輕罪不能選是上次修法改成這樣子的"},{"start":477.452,"end":499.613,"text":"所以這一次其實只是要單純的改正不合理的有可能會違憲的讓這個法律的制定條文自相矛盾的輕重失衡的違反比例原則的給它改回來而不是我們是要改正這樣的一個不合理也不是說"},{"start":502.15,"end":519.018,"text":"只是只要不是犯特定列舉的罪名的不是第一款到第六款的也不是被判重罪的當法官給他緩刑的時候沒有理由說你限制他不能參選修法的目的是在兼顧被選舉權憲法保障的被選舉權還有公共意義之間的維護的平衡這樣子"},{"start":526.881,"end":541.247,"text":"所以我再一次的請求大家如果你覺得某一種罪判了這樣子還可以選有時候是問題是出在司法院有時候問題不是在於選罷法有時候是你覺得說為什麼蘇委員還起訴有問題的可能是檢察官那你說高鴻安貪污治罪條例"},{"start":550.73,"end":564.912,"text":"貪污治罪條例的本來就不能選第二款而我們修的是一到六款以外的一般刑事犯罪的會變成什麼狀況 會變成說譬如說我在馬路上跟人商賣然後你的公然侮辱罪 判你你這沒什麼好吧 緩刑三個月如果你剛好定驗的時候是參選權你就沒有資格 你就沒有資格去登記參選"},{"start":579.881,"end":607.259,"text":"就好像是說你發生車禍 輕傷 但對方也告你了但你們後來和解了 但也給你緩刑六個月或是一年啊你也不能參選 可是你說當然邱梅發生車禍就不能參選然後那個犯七年以上重罪的 然後那判九年的可以參選這個也有恐怕有一點不公平之處啦"},{"start":608.86,"end":618.527,"text":"所以我們就這個本意來講所謂的緩刑就是法官認為你不用關不用嚴格給你處分然後也罰錢也不用就是給你自新的一個機會讓你改過這種狀況你說完全剝奪他的參選資格和權利我想這個可能就是矯枉有點過正了因為在三年以前在上一次的修法以前並不是這樣子的謝謝"},{"start":638.267,"end":638.311,"text":"謝謝大家"}]}},{"id":"168202","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168202","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/70d8fc05dcd8abb0c4bbdc3b3dda4f3c01ae777e4c72867e413b5cd1255e944469b51f63c6f260655ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"09:07:06 - 09:11:03","影片長度":"00:03:57","會議時間":"2026-04-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、經濟部、衛生福利部、農業部就「穩定供給與減塑並進：因應國際原物料波動之原物料穩定供應及我國減塑治理進程」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n\n討論事項\n一、審查「廢棄物清理法條文修正草案」9案：\n（一）委員馬文君等17人擬具「廢棄物清理法第五條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員顏寬恒等19人擬具「廢棄物清理法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員顏寬恒等17人擬具「廢棄物清理法第五條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員林淑芬等22人擬具「廢棄物清理法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員張宏陸等17人擬具「廢棄物清理法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員邱議瑩等21人擬具「廢棄物清理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員許智傑等29人擬具「廢棄物清理法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員劉建國等19人擬具「廢棄物清理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「廢棄物清理法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查「資源回收再利用法修正草案」2案：\n（一）委員許智傑等28人擬具「資源回收再利用法修正草案」案。\n（二）委員盧縣一等16人擬具「資源回收再利用法修正草案」案。\n【專題報告及法律案綜合詢答，法律案僅詢答】\n【4月8日及9日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-04-08","start_time":"2026-04-08T09:07:06+08:00","end_time":"2026-04-08T09:11:03+08:00","duration":237,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":5,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-5-26-5"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.422218750000001,"end":76.42409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.09909375000001,"end":235.43721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.57221875000002,"end":238.37346875000003}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.452,"end":13.776,"text":"好 謝謝主席 各位委員今天我提出了廢棄物清理法第71條的提案說明是因為現行的廢棄物清理法第71條規定非法棄置廢棄物的業者主管機關可以代為清除處理再向業者求償費用但是實際上我們根本都求償不到我們面臨到很多不孝的業者"},{"start":37.733,"end":48.297,"text":"那為了閃躲法律的求償義務呢他在被追償以前就把公司解散掉或者是宣告破產或者是把資產給轉移掉政府根本就追不到錢最後這些買單的都還是我們人民全民買單"},{"start":56.42,"end":72.006,"text":"所以這個廢清法看起來好像有污染者付費的原則其實是無法執行的那在這種狀況裡面我們看一下我曾經大修過這個土壤及地下水污染整治法它第43條就不一樣土法第43條它講了"},{"start":77.368,"end":92.791,"text":"處理這個問題他明確的規定了公司負責人主要股東要負連帶責任那公司即便你消滅了責任還是在所以這個制度運作下來才會是有效的有恫嚇作用能夠遏阻的但是廢清法沒有一個相對應的規範形成了法律上的一個漏洞"},{"start":101.793,"end":108.095,"text":"所以在這次的修法裡面 我們就參考了土屋法的修立法的精神修法的重點有三個 第一個 擴大求償對象事業如果是公司組織 主管機關可以分別向公司的負責人持股過半的股東 或者是實質控制公司的人求償清理的費用"},{"start":124.159,"end":136.451,"text":"那公司就算合併分割或其他原因消滅了這些人的責任都不會跟著消失這樣子業者就不能夠再用把公司結束掉來逃避他的亂丟亂棄置廢棄物的責任特別是我們都知道"},{"start":144.499,"end":150.303,"text":"都是非常不是一般人丟垃圾而已都是事業廢棄物亂丟的居多第二個我們明定了連帶的清償責任如果這個繳納醫務人員有好幾個大家要負連帶責任你也不能夠相互踢皮球我政府可以向任何一個人求償全額"},{"start":166.815,"end":173.898,"text":"不管是負責人持股過半的股東或者是實質控制公司的人我可以向你任何人求償所以你別想要跑掉第三個要增訂這個滯納金和罰款費用與其未繳的"},{"start":183.621,"end":188.883,"text":"每天加徵千分之五的滯納金超過一個月你還是不繳的話還要繼續處20萬到100萬的罰款讓拖延繳納有實質的法律上的效果所以綜合這次的修法我們希望大家在這一次這個球場機制上把這個漏洞給補起來讓污染者付費的原則能夠真正的落實而且我們都知道土法不足以自行法要治到"},{"start":211.59,"end":216.493,"text":"能夠讓他不再閃躲責任要有恫嚇的作用如果這恫嚇的作用完全沒有的話我想這個法律就僅供參考而已所以我們與其讓汙染在那裡被汙染了然後達到再去整治不如讓防患未然先恫嚇讓他不敢輕易的汙染這才是正本清源的之道請大家支持 謝謝好 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謝謝張教授那歡迎大家來參加本次的一個公聽會那首先來說明立法院第十一屆第五會期第四次的會議決定交付司法法治跟內政兩委員會審查總統之請本院同意徐錫祥為最高檢察署檢查總長一案因此依據立法院職權行使法第29條的規定舉辦今天的公聽會"},{"start":1576.667,"end":1599.1,"text":"邀請各位學者專家來提供寶貴的意見來作為我們審查的一個參考那在邀請各位發言之前我們先就公聽會的程序來進行說明第一首先請學者專家先發言那發言的順序依照簽到的先後順序"},{"start":1600.08,"end":1626.513,"text":"那本院的委員按照登記先後順序發言如果陸續到場本席會穿插來做安排那請到場的委員來做發言原則上在兩位學者專家發言之後來穿插一位委員的一個發言第三在如果登記的委員人數比較多的時候我們將在上午10點30分以後登記的委員安排在所有專家"},{"start":1627.553,"end":1648.193,"text":"學者專家發言完畢以後再按照登記的順序發言這個是立法院一貫尊重學者專家的一個好傳統那學者專家及本院委員如果需要提前發言也請先來告知主席台我們再視情況來佐與調整那最後啊"},{"start":1649.254,"end":1669.099,"text":"請政府機關代表發言針對學者專家以及委員的意見來加以回應來做總和的一個回應這封城長賜對你來說都少數了學有專精那與會者請到我們發言台來做發言這在我的"},{"start":1669.719,"end":1686.684,"text":"主席在右手邊那由於公聽會主要是在聽取學者專家各界的意見所以每位學者專家發言時間是10分鐘本院委員發言時間就抱歉這個立法委員平常就已經很久了時間大部分我們就讓給學者專家立法委員就5分鐘就5分鐘"},{"start":1693.41,"end":1706.218,"text":"那我首先請學者專家來做發言我們歡迎第一位發言的是台灣高等檢察署陳宏達主任檢察官請主席 市長"},{"start":1722.233,"end":1747.864,"text":"各位委員各位先進大家早今天非常榮幸能夠來到立法院公聽會表達我個人的潛見今天審查檢查總長這個職位不只是審查一個職位他同時也是決定整個檢查體系檢查機關的未來"},{"start":1753.413,"end":1781.947,"text":"司法是要向上提升或者是向下沉淪都決定在大院委員的一個審查所以今天的審查會其實是非常重要的那我個人也非常榮幸我願意把服務檢查機關36年老兵的肺腑之言在這裡"},{"start":1783.339,"end":1811.622,"text":"毫無保留的提出來那首先談審查我們要先確認檢查中長的定位那我覺得定位清楚他的方向才會清楚我們審查的重點才會掌握那我覺得檢查中長應該是檢查體系的台積電"},{"start":1813.957,"end":1841.044,"text":"為什麼會這樣講呢台積電是護國神山它穩住了國家的核心競爭力它同時也是戲盾那我覺得檢察中長之於檢察體系它的真正價值並不在於位高權重而在於是否能夠成為檢察官"},{"start":1843.936,"end":1867.367,"text":"依法辦案的一個後盾也就是法治之盾如同台積電一樣是所謂的戲盾那講到為什麼要像是台積電一樣呢因為我們希望檢察中長是檢察體系的台積電主要的要求是他需要具有卓越領導者應該具備的四項特質專業"},{"start":1873.254,"end":1902.298,"text":"可信穩定抗壓檢察總長如果不能成為檢察官辦案的後盾那再高的職位也只是沒有靈魂的職銜那台積電為什麼可以成為世界的第一先進的半導體的公司呢它的成功主要在於長期專注"},{"start":1904.537,"end":1930.763,"text":"半導體製造的一個本業在他的說明裡面有提到堅守所謂的Pure Play Foundry模式他並沒有把他的公司的資源去分散到處理記憶體面板或者是組裝這些工作他是專注在他的本業"},{"start":1932.878,"end":1960.285,"text":"那所以造就了今天的世界第一那我們希望我們的檢查中長也是在專業領域達到最高的一個巔峰那這裡有客觀的一些審查標準包括他的領導力能否成為整個檢查體系制度的後盾包括是不是政治中立與獨立性能不能跟政治權力"},{"start":1961.67,"end":1985.05,"text":"保持必要的距離第三個就是人權理念跟司法改革的意識它能否成為司法自我糾錯的一個發動者我覺得過往包括現任的行總長也都在這方面有非常多的一個宣示"},{"start":1986.209,"end":2006.845,"text":"包括邢總長在上次受審查的時候就提到要成立跨級跨峽縱向橫向的一個聯繫平台那究竟我們受提名人未來的一個展望是怎麼樣我相信這一些也都是大院在審查時候的重要參考"},{"start":2008.666,"end":2037.313,"text":"那我想就被提名人的這些問題提出四個面向提供給大院的委員來參考我這些標題都是問號我不敢自我做決定還是要由大院的委員詳實的去審查那這裡當然也許出於我個人的一些潛見但是我們還是要尊重全體的民意的一個決定首先第一個"},{"start":2039.901,"end":2065.813,"text":"被提名人在行政履歷之外是不是留下可被檢驗的這些辦案貢獻那這個我覺得是檢察總長適格性非常重要的一點也就是說要看他是不是具備領導整個檢察體系維繫制度獨立以穩定運作的能力還有時機"},{"start":2069.11,"end":2089.562,"text":"因為檢察總長是整個檢察體系的定貓者示範者以及最後的一個承擔者那我看過受提名人的自傳自述我覺得最致命的弱點他並沒有拿出足以支撐檢察總長職位的核心戰績那檢察總長"},{"start":2096.755,"end":2126.338,"text":"不是只有宣揚理念就可以的而是要用最棘手的案件實戰的紀錄來證明自己能夠扛得住壓力擋得住政治權力的風暴如果這個資歷比較空白或者是相對薄弱那麼很難填補它適任性上的一些缺口"},{"start":2127.95,"end":2151.494,"text":"我們做歷任總長的一個資歷的一個對比這樣就可以很清楚了我們以最近三任的檢察總長包括嚴總長江總長還有現任的邢總長資歷可以說是非常的充沛他們不僅是三位都當過次長同時擔任次長之後"},{"start":2156.096,"end":2175.17,"text":"還在台北地檢署擔任檢察長與刑總長兩位包括嚴總長都在高檢署擔任過檢察長也就是他們經歷過辦理特殊重大貪賭重大經濟犯罪政治敏感案件複雜法律增添高壓輿論風暴種種的這些案件的千錘百鍊"},{"start":2179.966,"end":2207.029,"text":"所以他們登上這個大位我們相信他們有能力把這個檢察中長的工作做好不過回過來看我們的被提名人雖然他的行政資歷很豐厚但是如同我一開始所講的台積電如果今天魏哲嘉董事長一下子來做半導體一下子做記憶體一下子做組裝"},{"start":2208.766,"end":2236.345,"text":"一下子做面板他今天魏哲嘉就不是魏哲嘉了台積電也不是台積電我想這個答案各位先進都可以了解不一定要去問魏哲嘉董事長也不一定要問黃仁勳這個CEO另外被提名人自賺我們也看到有一些瑕疵那這個問題"},{"start":2238.168,"end":2262.39,"text":"我覺得也有必要提出來因為他所提的這些辦案事蹟都是過去曾經在辦過園林地區最大的密案件看守所辦過的這些命案那這個都是20年前30年前的我們今天所使用的是iPhone手機"},{"start":2264.107,"end":2289.354,"text":"他的晶片已經用到M5、M6了但是我們不能拿過去486、586的這些試機來加以填充那第二個我想比較嚴重的就是也值得重視的就是跟男人政務官的問題政務官就是要忠誠不只是對國家忠誠對政策也要忠誠那在這種換了一個"},{"start":2292.23,"end":2305.942,"text":"位置換了一個腦袋的情況之下將來他回來之後能不能再轉換回來我覺得這個都是問題將來能不能切斷他過去的這些人脈關係也都是問題那再來一個"},{"start":2307.612,"end":2330.721,"text":"國安副局長的這個身份是加分還是減分我們知道國安局是帶有濃厚的國安幕僚跟準軍事司法的一個屬性他強調的是指揮服從 機密維護這個跟司法的文化格格不符所以這些問題我想特別提出來請大院來加以審酌以上報告 謝謝大家"},{"start":2332.83,"end":2334.533,"text":"好謝謝陳鋒達主任檢察官來謝謝他寶貴的意見接下來我們老前輩這個開南大學法律學院掌櫃美教授"},{"start":2352.578,"end":2369.649,"text":"主席在座各位星星主席很客氣我很老沒有錯但是我很欽佩主席他算是比較公正的長期的形象時間有限所以我就"},{"start":2374.268,"end":2384.483,"text":"針對所謂的檢查體系的最高首長他大致來說整個的方向應該具備哪一些的不可或缺的條件"},{"start":2386.929,"end":2400.362,"text":"這是條件 可能不是要件因為跟法律上 實務上它有的時候會有出入第一個呢 在純司法體系很少人談這個問題但是我覺得這是目前我們現階段國內比較嚴重的問題也就是說"},{"start":2405.707,"end":2421.901,"text":"上次在國安法的時候我有特別提到我們常常在行政法制裡面加了很多行政刑法的部分不管是選罷法 國安法 很多的法裡面它都有行政刑法的部分"},{"start":2423.87,"end":2439.711,"text":"但是不管你放在哪一個法裡面不是放在刑法裡面那這些行政刑法的構成要件我覺得都要回到刑法裡面去探究不能違反所謂刑法的罪行法定主義"},{"start":2440.732,"end":2465.124,"text":"否則的話我覺得我們會看得眼花繚亂譬如說這個國安法或者是反滲透法甚至在去年底我如果沒有記錯的話去年12月10號內政委員會也開了一個針對這個所謂的詐欺犯罪危害防治條例的修法那裡面也是要罰什麼詐欺網站什麼網路平台業者等等等"},{"start":2470.376,"end":2496.043,"text":"那甚至包含我們說的這個官法最近也在修法那裡面也授予行政機關非常大的制裁權那不管怎麼樣當然事後追陳這是一個基本原則司法的基本原則那第二個行政權如果要動用到刑法的相關構成要件我覺得他是要退場的"},{"start":2497.223,"end":2521.838,"text":"這個是非常清楚的所以第一個重點就是說我們在目前很多的修法事實上我手邊資料很多這些行政 刑法裡面我覺得它的構成要件已經很多是超過了刑法上的構成要件它甚至有些基本的概念可能都會涉及到刑法的適用我覺得這是非常嚴重的所以這個第一個問題一定要處理"},{"start":2525.424,"end":2547.338,"text":"那第二個問題呢第二個問題我們在法務部的網站或者是相關的政府網站裡面看到非常漂亮的定罪率的數據高達96點多啦什麼的這每一年起起伏伏但是定罪率都非常高"},{"start":2548.7,"end":2574.318,"text":"我不知道在司法體系檢查體系檢討的時候定罪率高所代表的意義是什麼我隨便舉例你不同類型的案件譬如說我們在刑法185條之三譬如說你不能安全駕駛罪這種我覺得取締是非常簡單的現在科技執法一大堆你可能每天抓一大堆"},{"start":2576.703,"end":2599.222,"text":"這個 但是這一類定罪率高 你代表的意義是什麼那可是呢 其他譬如說貪污啦 性侵啦或者是這個所謂的洗錢防治啦等等那這個定罪率又是另外一種類型所以我覺得不要沉迷在數字裡面而自我"},{"start":2600.984,"end":2615.143,"text":"自我失去了進步的這個所謂的國家責任這一點是非常重要的那當然婉靜有一些案子呢似乎有點違背了所謂人民的法感情"},{"start":2616.941,"end":2639.863,"text":"在檢查體系呢當然我們392號講得非常清楚392號裡面有一段非常重要的概念他說呢實際上理由書裡面他說不許法院就是法官 法院當然是法官構成的不許法院以外的機關呢得長期拘束人民身體自由"},{"start":2642.106,"end":2663.846,"text":"為什麼 他說 該國家為了達成刑事司法救民案件真相的目的非未即可訴諸任何手段 即使犯罪嫌疑人呢他的人身自由也應該受到適度的保障那但是我們當然看到 這個穩定呢 很多的羈押打破了過去的標準"},{"start":2664.966,"end":2693.774,"text":"如果你要深入去追究的時候司法可以用一句非常簡單的理由告訴你說司法獨立檢查即使檢查一體檢察官也是獨立的啊那所以呢我們憲法這個裡面所規定的法官這個依據法律獨立審判甚至法官法裡面不能有所謂的政黨甚至司法檢查體系的退休制度很多制度它都是一體適用的"},{"start":2694.881,"end":2704.891,"text":"那為什麼到了這個所謂偵查階段中的申請羈押呢他就可以突破392號的實際的封鎖我覺得這一塊必須具體檢討也就是說證據法則是不是有真正落實"},{"start":2715.56,"end":2743.105,"text":"假設你的這個偵查階段我們當然要非常清楚的知道這個我們媒體都喜歡用壓人取共這句話我希望盡量用學術的概念也就是說你盡量壓一個人的時候在偵查階段它是最後最後不得已的手段有沒有達到必要性原則有沒有達到所謂的公平正義公正審判之下的所謂的獨立原則"},{"start":2744.605,"end":2766.473,"text":"我覺得這個是要去深究的而不是一個法律人的自傲很居傲的說這是司法專業不能對外那當然你背離了所謂的這個社會通念背離了所謂人民的法感情會造成你的民調支持度信任度一直下降那這一塊我覺得要嚴肅面對"},{"start":2773.61,"end":2790.28,"text":"那當然延伸出來的譬如說一再的抗告啦 延壓啦要不要有上限你已經交保了以後然後你還可以一直無限的抗告一直延壓那這個到底有沒有底線啊"},{"start":2791.792,"end":2807.535,"text":"我會認為過去也許我們運作上沒有那麼嚴重那這幾年看起來在某些個案裡面它是很嚴重的所以我常常認為有的時候不是數據的問題任何一個案子我們不能因為大案小案而有差別對待"},{"start":2808.436,"end":2831.285,"text":"都必須嚴肅面對所以這個交保後一再抗告原壓這塊是不是要認真面對的檢討它的關鍵原因到底在哪裡我們不能用一句老百姓聽不懂的話基於專業其他人都不能智慧我覺得這個是要檢討那第三個問題呢我覺得婉靜"},{"start":2836.852,"end":2864.841,"text":"這個偵查不公開常常出問題我自己在監察院的時候實務上就碰到我曾經辦過有一個空難案件辦了一半的時候因為監察院現在常常會有一些形容詞這個我們不管它但是我一直認為監察權彈劾權它是無可替代的在憲法裡面當然只有監察權有那至於有沒有認真盡責那是個別委員自己摸著良心的問題"},{"start":2866.181,"end":2885.519,"text":"在監察院的時候實際上我有些案子辦了一半呢資訊就出去了我們也是準司法當中是不能外洩的後來呢就發現奇怪媒體報的好像他身歷其境到今天這麼久了好像沒有解決那當然都可以推罪於是媒體"},{"start":2887.489,"end":2910.709,"text":"那當然也有些媒體人 曾經有一個媒體人說他已經養蟹養了多久了 這個我不管了這是媒體轉述的 我不是這個真正了解那所以呢 我們今天要檢討的時候 是不是第一些條文就解決掉了所謂的條文就是說 我們有一個什麼偵查不公開的作業辦法 對不對"},{"start":2912.735,"end":2919.498,"text":"幹法裡面呢當然他上位是有這個刑訴的245條的第五項去授權的那可是這個條文裡面所謂的什麼呢所謂的得勢度公開啊這個我們可能要認真檢討什麼叫得勢度啊那當內的那個主體指的是誰呢指的是偵查機關或偵查輔助機關"},{"start":2940.816,"end":2953.199,"text":"得釋度公開那這個得釋度公開跟所謂的媒體有沒有外洩我覺得這兩回事所以檢查體系不能動不動就推到媒體你自己的部分難道都沒有問題嗎所以這個得釋度我會認為這個權責機關當然我們人的部分立委自己會去質詢我會認為針對檢查權這塊一定要嚴肅面對不能延長了對不對"},{"start":2970.567,"end":2981.719,"text":"主席可以嗎?那我再三分鐘OK 那就把它結束了好 OK 那就一分鐘那最後有一個問題我覺得詐騙非常嚴重我過去在監察院的時候判過很多詐騙案"},{"start":2992.95,"end":3020.773,"text":"後來到現在完全沒有改善112年會是一個節點這個大家都非常清楚112年之後我們顯然在犯罪手法上做了重大的翻新過去都人頭賬戶現在人頭賬戶要查非常容易我相信檢查體系非常清楚人頭賬戶破壞率非常高可是現在的犯罪手法顯然不是這樣"},{"start":3022.366,"end":3042.167,"text":"那所以呢 我們那個刑法339條之四加重詐欺好 它有加重詐欺那關鍵是 這個第五條裡面它說凡在中華民國領域外犯罪者適用之那這涉及到兩岸多地 多國"},{"start":3043.86,"end":3057.11,"text":"這一塊在司法引渡我覺得非常薄弱始終沒有解決希望我們不要政治思考希望以人權思考認真面對突破的方法 謝謝謝謝那接下來我們請那個立法委員陳昭芝委員謝謝主席"},{"start":3074.502,"end":3097.465,"text":"主席與會先進以及關心檢查總長提名審查的國人朋友們今天這場公聽會我必須很直接的說我們在討論的不是一個檢查總長的人事案而是一個更嚴重的問題台灣的檢查體系是否正在一步一步走向政治辦案的危機呢制度本來是中立的但是現實卻非如此"},{"start":3098.499,"end":3113.429,"text":"依照法院組織法檢察總統擁有指揮監督全國檢察官的權利可以在職務上承繼案件移轉案件決定辦案方向綜合整個檢察體系這樣的設計本來是為了統一法律適用避免濫權但我要問"},{"start":3116.328,"end":3133.965,"text":"當這樣的權力如果被政治力影響會變成什麼呢答案很簡單就是變成可以決定誰被辦誰不辦的一個權力核心我今天不談立場只談現象在柯文的責案當中社會已經撫出幾個非常嚴重的疑問為什麼偵查資訊會在特定時間點外流"},{"start":3137.771,"end":3150.362,"text":"為什麼媒體可以提前掌握搜索跟約談的節奏為什麼案件偵辦過程呈現高度政治對立的解讀為什麼剪掉的動作與政治時程高度重疊"},{"start":3151.874,"end":3169.069,"text":"我要強調問題不是要不要辦柯文哲而是為什麼人民開始懷疑這是不是一個節奏已經被安排好的一個辦案的過程當人民產生這樣的懷疑的時候問題就不是個案喔而是在整個檢查體系的公信力"},{"start":3170.67,"end":3189.436,"text":"當偵查不公開已經變成選擇性公開會是什麼狀況2018年當時被提名的檢察總長江惠民他曾經公開承諾如果嚴重違反偵查不公開願意負責但今天的現實是什麼偵查不公開變成對人民不公開但對特定媒體公開"},{"start":3191.107,"end":3213.337,"text":"變成可以操作輿論影響案件的走向的工具這不是紀律問題喔 而是對於司法最根本的一個破壞因為一旦檢查體系開始用媒體來辦案那麼法官還沒有判 社會已經先定罪證據還沒有出來 輿論已經形成了程序正義完全被輿論操作所取代"},{"start":3214.653,"end":3229.125,"text":"沒有人可以否認的是檢查總長的權利如果沒有界限的話就是政治武器所以刑事法學者很早就講得非常清楚檢查一體制度是為了統一法律適用不是為了讓權力集中影響個案但現在最大的問題是檢查總長的職務成績權職務移轉權是否有被用來影響敏感案件是否存在"},{"start":3239.493,"end":3252.425,"text":"對誰來辦案這個本身就很有政治的意義如果這個問題不能被正面來回答那麼檢察總長就不再只是司法官而是案件分配的政治決策者作為選擇不是辦錯案而是選擇性辦案各位"},{"start":3255.468,"end":3284.11,"text":"司法最可怕的不是偶爾辦錯案而是同樣的事情有人被辦有人不被辦同樣的標準套在不同人身上結果完全不同這才是真正摧毀人民信任的原因今天柯文哲案所以引起巨大的爭議不是因為他是誰而是因為人民開始懷疑是不是顏色不同標準就不同檢察總統現在面對的已經不是法律問題而是信任危機我們必須誠實面對一件事現在的問題不是制度寫的好不好"},{"start":3284.87,"end":3309.044,"text":"而是人民信不信當人民開始感受檢察機關會配合政治節奏偵查資訊可以被操作案件可以被選擇性的處理那麼再完美的法律條文都沒有用了我覺得今天的人事案本質是一次對司法信任的投票所以今天立法院的責任不是單純審查一個人而是要問這個被提名的人能不能讓人民重新相信"},{"start":3310.109,"end":3324.002,"text":"檢察機關不是執政者的工具能不能做到面對政治壓力時不低頭不配合不選擇性辦案檢察總長這個位置不是為了服務任何一個政黨而存在"},{"start":3325.131,"end":3350.515,"text":"它存在的唯一目的是讓人民相信法律對所有人都是一致的都是一樣的如果做不到這一點再多的改革再多的口號都是沒有用的都只會讓人民更加不信任司法我想大家都知道根據任何民調目前台灣人民對司法的信任度已經一直在遠離及格分數甚至是死當大家都知道大概只有三四成"},{"start":3352.132,"end":3379.52,"text":"當司法被死當了我們還奢談民主嗎所以這是今日檢察官人事案公聽會最重要的省思如果司法被死當了如果司法的信任度被人民死當了我們台灣還奢談民主嗎以上 謝謝主席接下來我們有請李聖傑副教授 謝謝"},{"start":3390.169,"end":3402.852,"text":"大會長 與會的各位先進大家早今天我們在這邊做總長受提名人的諮詢我提出一些思考"},{"start":3404.213,"end":3424.006,"text":"首先我想依照法院組織法的第六條我們知道總長受到總統平民之後國會當然我們在這邊做一個聽證總長所檢附的相關資料受提名人所檢附的相關資料"},{"start":3425.267,"end":3449.753,"text":"在整個檢查體系的第一任職務上呢我們看到是非常完備的那當然這個之前也有先進提到那這個相關檢查體系的資歷完備呢那所存在的兩個面向思考在這邊時間的關係我就不再重複那我想把重點放在"},{"start":3451.158,"end":3461.614,"text":"我們對總長的期待啦那根據這個受提名人他所提出來的檢附資料呢我們看到這一個"},{"start":3463.587,"end":3489.926,"text":"宋廷銘人也曾經擔任了聯合國盤貪腐公約的審查的這一種整個細項的實行那就這個台灣在全球化發展的這一種脈絡下我覺得這樣的資歷基本上是提供了一個另外一個更高的視角來處理檢查事務那"},{"start":3491.488,"end":3519.904,"text":"如果說就這個相關的對總長職務的期待呢那我想在歷年來在檢查一體的這種適用上的關於偵查案件的偵辦那大概呢不外所謂的在檢查司法實務處理的中性就是不受政治干擾那我想這都是最基本的條件那"},{"start":3521.906,"end":3545.697,"text":"比較受到國人期待在過往曾經發生的事物上呢那我覺得在偵查體系一直沒有能夠改進那可能就是關於偵查不公開的這一種如何是不是有一個很具體的改善的辦法"},{"start":3547.165,"end":3564.898,"text":"當然這個問題涉及的面向很多,在過往我們相關的偵查體系面對有時候確實讓人民懷疑,在相關的偵查事件有洩密之餘"},{"start":3566.314,"end":3590.775,"text":"那如何去把這一個漏洞補足我想這是從人民對這個檢查體系有很高的期待那或許總統受提名人能夠在這個地方也提出來一個比較具體作為可能改善的方式"},{"start":3591.67,"end":3613.312,"text":"那接下來我想從這一個學界的視角那來談在檢查一體的這一種面向上總長的職務的所可能處理那是不是能夠去落實學界發展的應用所謂落實學界發展的應用呢那基本上"},{"start":3614.793,"end":3631.999,"text":"這個跟我們的長期食物跟學界的距離呢那當然確實在近年來有看到改善那可是呢就學界的觀察那我想利用這樣的一個"},{"start":3634.25,"end":3650.919,"text":"體系圖呢來說明學界對檢查總長職務的期待在這個體系圖呢基本上我大概這個我們在德國讀書的時候那基本上就刑法課程的第一堂課"},{"start":3652.601,"end":3666.481,"text":"教授就會給我們這樣的一種刑法所涉及面向的關注那當然這上面我寫的是德語不過我簡單的就把它跟大家說明一下"},{"start":3667.549,"end":3683.781,"text":"首先刑法是處理犯罪的問題那當然在檢查一體的這種適用上也是對於犯罪的偵辦那對於犯罪涉及的就是刑法的問題那在不同的刑法的"},{"start":3685.561,"end":3707.126,"text":"高度視角下呢基本上刑法所涉及的面向呢那就有不一樣的要素那通常呢我們談刑法說刑法就是處理犯罪那什麼是犯罪呢那受過基本法律的訓練的人就直接把它提到說那犯罪就是不法加"},{"start":3707.706,"end":3733.394,"text":"罪責或者我們說共產要件違法性罪責這樣的一個檢視犯罪的層次我想這個我們在實務界在處理犯罪偵查的時候一定具有這樣的一個面向的認識可是在我現在所提出來的這一個體系圖上面這樣處理犯罪的層次其實是最基本面的"},{"start":3734.494,"end":3763.404,"text":"那涉及犯罪如果說我們再去思考那涉及犯罪還會處理什麼問題呢那如果我們從另外一個視角來看我們從刑法往前提的話呢那這個在我的體系圖的第二層那涉及著四個V這個四個V分別是Fail-breaking, Fail-breakingFail-breaking, Controler, Victimology那這四個V呢第一個V所代表的就是"},{"start":3764.457,"end":3773.667,"text":"犯罪人 行為人 我想與會的相關做犯罪偵查 應該也對行為人都有認識"},{"start":3779.178,"end":3797.105,"text":"那這個沒有問題,如果第一個fabricating就犯罪,那如同我剛剛說的,從這個視角來看的話,其實除了面向很基層,我們很在乎構成要件要素的解釋如何,其實也就這樣子而已。"},{"start":3798.206,"end":3817.427,"text":"那從這個面向去處理犯罪其實是不足的啦那所以呢現在我們關懷犯罪的視角已經提不是處理犯罪的這個行為而已我們還在乎他為什麼做了這個犯罪那在台灣已經出現這一個受到社會矚目的"},{"start":3818.408,"end":3836.609,"text":"無差別性的殺人事件所以那我們會去關懷那這個行為人怎麼了所以這是第二個面向的視角然後就是行為人那當然在台灣的這一種學界處理裡面呢那確實"},{"start":3838.997,"end":3856.096,"text":"已經有這樣的一種關注的面向發展那我們的檢查體系知道嗎還是我們只處理後端的東西只處理犯罪然後不斷的去建構這一個構成要件要素然後去連結"},{"start":3857.53,"end":3883.16,"text":"這一個相關的證明的證據而已那其實我覺得說這個都是太怎麼樣太基本面而且如果我們的檢查體系以總長的職務的高度把這個面向只看在這個視角下是有一點可惜那第三個fabricating controller這個基本上就是所謂的我們說國家制度對於犯罪的反應"},{"start":3884.62,"end":3913.668,"text":"我舉例以這一個詐騙事件來說詐騙事件在台灣現在看起來已經是國安問題了那我們還把它定性在所謂的財產犯罪的視角嗎那國家對於這樣的一種犯罪的反應到底做了什麼事情那我這個都是在學理上被關注的那可是在"},{"start":3914.338,"end":3935.5,"text":"我們的檢查體系裡面他是不是真的有做到這樣的觀察那我想可能在這個受提名人在將來總長的職務上呢基於檢查一體的這一種怎麼樣更高的視角如果可以從這個面向的去做關注那是我們期待的"},{"start":3936.221,"end":3946.054,"text":"最後最後呢我想要講的是victimology那個victimology翻成中文就是被害者"},{"start":3947.728,"end":3975.483,"text":"就是說今天我們在看這一個偵查實務的時候其實我們常常把面向看在犯罪看在行為人可是對於被害者的關注其實也是重要的在我們處理犯罪的時候我剛剛說就學理的發展從這一個犯罪學來說的話犯罪學就是我把這一個刑法的視角提在"},{"start":3976.403,"end":4002.785,"text":"一個層面在一個最高的這種視角下呢這個字不是很好念這個我們翻成犯罪學犯罪學呢就是涉及四個V那我想就以這樣的一個體系總表呢對這個總統平民人呢做這樣的一個期待謝謝"},{"start":4006.691,"end":4022.907,"text":"謝謝老師,那我們接下來請劉芳玲副教授簡報沒有出來啊?"},{"start":4027.287,"end":4047.239,"text":"主席各位先進我是東海大學劉芳林很榮幸在這裡能夠跟各位分享我的意見因為我跟被提名人剛好在法務部的刑法研修小組有共識的經驗所以我是基於他提出的資料還有我跟他共識的經驗做出客觀的判斷"},{"start":4048.28,"end":4063.794,"text":"那就判斷他是否事任檢查總長一職會從五個面向來分析第一個是學經歷第二個是質押信仰第三個是人格特質第四個是特殊表現第五個是就任員警好那我們簡單來說"},{"start":4067.742,"end":4079.715,"text":"第一個關於學經歷我們可以說被提名人的學經歷是非常的豐富而且他比較特色的是他在任職檢察官之前他當過國小老師所以這也是為什麼我在行修的時候就覺得這位主席因為他在行修是擔任主席"},{"start":4089.466,"end":4118.789,"text":"是非常的有compassion就是很有同理心而且呢能夠迅速的解決爭議然後最令人激賞的是因為行修的各個專家學者非常多所以會提出非常多面向的見解那被提名的人總是非常迅速的可以把各個專家的見解立刻寧縮成假案 已案 稟案 定案然後很迅速的進入一個表決的程序所以我就覺得說他作為一個拍型人也就是跨域因為他是從"},{"start":4119.849,"end":4143.921,"text":"國小教職然後跨到法律系應該是一個非常成功的典範而且他還曾經擔任過律師然後他的本職當然是檢察官從3的部分諸位可以看到他檢察官的經歷是非常的完整他曾經在地檢當檢察官然後呢當過地檢的主任檢察官當過高檢的主任檢察官之後他還戒掉呢擔任海巡署政風處處長還戒掉擔任國安局副處長副局長"},{"start":4148.283,"end":4167.608,"text":"所以可以看得出來他的經歷是非常非常完整的就要擔任檢察總長而言我個人的評價是五星級就是五顆星然後第二個呢關於他的職涯信仰按照我們在刑法這個研修小組跟他共識的互動以及他自己所提出的資料"},{"start":4168.208,"end":4187.182,"text":"我個人是肯定他說他遵守法律程序確保人權保障我的評價是他確實是發自內心這麼想的尤其是他的資料的最後一段他自己自述寫了這段話那外界對他的期待有三個第一個不踢任何政黨辦案第二個捍衛專業與資歷第三個手術程序爭議斬斷解媒共生"},{"start":4193.547,"end":4211.225,"text":"那我個人認為以我與他共事的經驗還有他自己所提供的資料以顏色來分類我覺得是完全匹配的就紅色的部分呢就對應他會中立辦案綠色的部分呢就對應他會堅守程序正義然後藍色的部分呢就可以對應他會捍衛專業跟子女"},{"start":4215.097,"end":4243.328,"text":"那接下來關於他的人格特質當然這個被提名人他自己寫的是非常的多所以我大概呢以我跟他共事的經驗呢然後做了三點整理我對他的評價就是雷力風行幹練嚴謹中國保民不會強權千功有禮 領導有方那尤其是三個部分因為他在行修呢是擔任主席所以我確實認為他的領導能力呢是相當卓越的"},{"start":4243.948,"end":4263.204,"text":"他讓會議的進程非常的有效率那關於這個人格的匹配當然不能夠淪於被提名人的老盲賣瓜自賣自誇所以我們要看一下他有沒有具體的事實可以來跟他相批比就是肯認他的這個人格特質是實至名歸的一個評價"},{"start":4267.668,"end":4287.825,"text":"那他自己說他最驕傲的事情並不是他升官或是他有什麼樣被長官肯認他最驕傲的事情是當他還是檢查候補菜鳥的時候他幫了一個看守所的人犯他的妻子跟他喊冤說他的丈夫死於非命"},{"start":4288.837,"end":4312.339,"text":"那他就非常積極的為這個家屬喊冤這件事情追查到底然後最後他就發現原來那時候彰化看守所的契約醫院竟然是一個密醫所以那時候就發現是因為這個密醫他的診療有疏失才導致這個人犯死亡那最後那個案子也判決確定"},{"start":4313.92,"end":4340.515,"text":"這件事情最有特色的是他自己心中最驕傲的是是為了一個底層的甚至是社會一般通念所看不起的因為他是犯人一般的人民對於犯人的好感度非常的低可是他為了這樣底層的人他的妻子向他喊冤的時候他自己還只是一個菜鳥的時候他卻願意額外花心力去做"},{"start":4341.776,"end":4359.026,"text":"追案還有成冤的一個動作而這件事情待他日後高升之後啊還是藏在他的心裡面成為他最驕傲的事情所以我認為呢對於中國保民不畏強權這件事情我覺得在這個點上是可以得到肯認"},{"start":4360.006,"end":4376.479,"text":"那第二件事情我覺得他是做實事的人因為呢他在他的資料裡面還有我們在他共識閒聊的過程之中我可以肯認他曾經辦過重大經濟犯罪案件譬如說台中九姓的假買賣炒帶案然後他也辦過重大的貪賭案件譬如說這個"},{"start":4383.064,"end":4402.199,"text":"他擔任海巡署的時候政風處處長他查清了乍領檢舉獎金案那檢舉的金額被貪污的金額高達兩千萬那他也辦過呢政治敏感的大案譬如說有名的一百零七年九合一選舉新竹的這個案件"},{"start":4403.24,"end":4423.769,"text":"最令人震驚的是他在六天之內就詢問了一千名的這個被告所以從這一點來看也可以理解為什麼他的部署稱他為辦案型的檢察長因為看得出來他的效力確實很高然後關於他的這個就任的這個願景"},{"start":4425.512,"end":4450.757,"text":"我個人給他的評價也是五星級因為其實外界對他的期待就是一定要中立不可以有政黨色彩然後第二個要捍衛專業還要自律然後第三個要守住程序正義然後斬斷減煤共生那他在就任的願景裡面他提了八項那我大概也幫他"},{"start":4452.677,"end":4468.408,"text":"整理分類一下一樣也是用顏色來分啦這紅色的部分呢就是對應呢他不替任何政黨辦案我相信呢他能夠做得到而且我對他最大的一個期待在瓜浩山"},{"start":4469.349,"end":4488.31,"text":"也是優化檢查體制這件事情事實上這一點齁 各位都知道因為詐騙集團的關係啊這個 我們檢方啊 偵辦的案件是與日俱增啊依照媒體的報導是年增十萬件當然不知道這個數據是真是假不過基本上大部分的媒體都這樣報"},{"start":4489.651,"end":4512.984,"text":"那即便有灌水媒體灌水大概也去不了太遠所以可以理解檢查現在人力不足跟過老是非常非常的嚴重那也有很多檢察官不堪重賀所以就含淚飲退那這件事情我們在行修小組就是平常互動或是會後的閒談"},{"start":4514.545,"end":4525.333,"text":"他也就是被提名了呢也表達憂心也提出自己的想法那我對他的期許就是說呢希望他能把他自己的這個想法如果能順利就任的話能夠落實讓這個檢查體系的工作環境啊"},{"start":4530.257,"end":4550.633,"text":"可以回歸一個正常的負荷 因為我有這樣子啊 這個我們檢查才能真夠發揮啊 所謂最公正客觀的關屬也就是捍衛法律啊 然後保健安民所以這個3的部分 尤其是案件量 因為詐騙集團的關係啊導致大增的這個部分 希望能夠"},{"start":4551.994,"end":4569.242,"text":"它能夠落實然後第二個部分呢是關於綠色的部分就是捍衛人權跟平反冤錯保護被害人跟弱勢者權益我最期待的是五就是五的部分就是保護被害人跟弱勢者因為"},{"start":4570.462,"end":4586.513,"text":"在我國為什麼民眾會對司法信任度如此低這個原因是因為我們學法了都知道因為我們的刑法權收歸國有所以導致程序的角色變成是國家跟被告人的角色"},{"start":4587.193,"end":4607.529,"text":"那被害人在程序的角色一直是被忽視的近年當然有被害人參與制度等等不斷的努力可是我期許如果他能順利就任的話就這一塊能夠再大幅的提升我相信這樣子必然有助於我國對於我國人民對於司法的信任最後一個是藍色的部分"},{"start":4611.852,"end":4632.341,"text":"也就是他要穩妥的運用檢查議題那這個當然就是對應呢這個捍衛專業跟自律這一塊那按照我在行修呢對這位被提名人的觀察我相信呢他也是做得到的所以最後的結論就是我給他五顆星的評價以上是我的意見謝謝各位"},{"start":4640.098,"end":4643.455,"text":"謝謝那下一位是張立青專任講座教授謝謝"},{"start":4651.02,"end":4657.702,"text":"主席、各位先進、各位先生、各位女士我是實踐大學法學院張麗清今天很榮幸能夠受邀來參加這個公聽會以下是我自己的想法這是我自己簡單的簡介"},{"start":4672.355,"end":4686.659,"text":"那誠如這個剛剛我們劉教授所講的那我比這個劉教授擔任法務部刑法研究修正小組的委員呢已經將近20年那這樣子的一個經驗其實我陸續接觸到很多"},{"start":4696.562,"end":4716.058,"text":"傑出的實務界的這個菁英那我必須講 習主任檢察官是我印象深刻非常敬佩的一位這個主任檢察官那這是我今天想要跟大家分享的這個目次首先我要從這個為什麼我們認為說竹刊升任"},{"start":4720.822,"end":4746.078,"text":"檢查總長的這個理由那我從以下幾點跟大家分享首先呢 當然就是我長期參與法務部刑法研修會的這個觀察這個 呃 誠如剛剛我們劉教授也提到的第一點願意傾聽不同的意見我覺得這個是非常重要的尤其呢 如果在大家"},{"start":4747.478,"end":4771.845,"text":"這個意見不能夠統合有一些交鋒的這個時候能夠迅速整合觀點做出明快而且有說服力的這個意見我覺得這個是非常重要的第二點我們來看看如果不能夠掌握刑事立法政策的發展方向那麼這樣子也不行的所以呢在我的這個觀察"},{"start":4773.018,"end":4796.095,"text":"也就是我們的被提名人擔任主席期間對於整個刑事立法政策的發展方向以及整個制度的脈絡掌握得非常的精確所以他是兼具敏銳的判斷力、必要的堅持以及有適度彈性的一位法律人"},{"start":4796.895,"end":4821.716,"text":"第二點 我們從法律養成的歷程跟專業能力的展現來跟大家分享我們都強調跨領域 跨領域其實是最困難的我們的被提名人曾經是國小的老師他從那個時候就已經開始所謂的跨領域的起點"},{"start":4822.779,"end":4840.161,"text":"那白天當老師 晚上當學生 兼顧工作跟課業其實是一個非常艱辛的這個歷程那以第一名的成績畢業 尤其碩士班還沒有畢業 律師法官雙榜"},{"start":4840.962,"end":4864.86,"text":"那麼在當時其實律師法官的這個錄取率是非常低的所以呢我們可以看見就是說其實一個人的一個專業能力的背後往往是長時間不被看見的能力那這個他展現出很難得的毅力以及學習的這個成就第三點我們來看"},{"start":4867.283,"end":4887.283,"text":"剛剛我們劉教授也提到了從個案出發促成制度改善的這種實務的能力當時他只是一個候補檢察官他願意主動偵查然後查獲密醫體系的問題然後促成一個制度的改善"},{"start":4888.164,"end":4903.521,"text":"所以呢我們要跟大家分享的我們所謂的這個官為資助這個可以看出一位年輕的候補檢察官的一個負責任的態度以及他熱誠的一個感覺"},{"start":4904.762,"end":4932.462,"text":"所以呢這個促成制度的改善我覺得這個是非常不簡單的再來我們從人格操守跟社會評價來看長期以來我們被庭名人在整個法界或民間都沒有一些負面的評價我想這個是一個非常難得的因為對於一個從事司法職務很多年的這個人而言這個是非常難得"},{"start":4933.523,"end":4949.948,"text":"而且我們可以相信他是一個值得信賴的法律人再來他有完整的歷練跟跨領域的治理能力剛剛有很多的這個先進已經提到了他有非常豐富完整的這個歷練"},{"start":4952.329,"end":4976.523,"text":"這個長期擔任不同的這個職務而且呢他有溝通能力的這一個非常展現優秀的一面尤其呢我們在看到他從茶會毒品環境污染食品安全以及到新興犯罪的這個偵辦我們看到他的是什麼跨領域的一個治理的能力那麼尤其"},{"start":4977.421,"end":5001.742,"text":"他有國安級的任職的背景那我認為尤其在我們現在的這種當前國際以及兩岸趨於緊張局勢的情況之下這樣子的一個任職的背景對他而言其實是非常非常的重要的所以我的結論是他具有一種司法實務以及政策領導跨域領域的這個經驗"},{"start":5004.554,"end":5023.641,"text":"好再來呢我的小結是什麼因為我認為我們綜合他的法律的養成背景實務的歷練以及人格的表現我們可以清楚的看出被提名人他兼具了這個堅毅的毅力敏銳了這個判斷而且勇於負責"},{"start":5024.44,"end":5041.247,"text":"尤其他對弱勢的關懷我想呢這個不僅是一個對於所謂優秀檢察官的評價而已其實我們這個時候應該要想的我們是對於一個制度領導者的一個評價跟判斷"},{"start":5042.884,"end":5061.107,"text":"所以根據以上的幾點理由我認為他非常適合擔任檢查總長一職當然我們也希望從對檢查總長角色的期許我提出幾點個人的淺見跟大家分享"},{"start":5062.268,"end":5074.445,"text":"首先大家都知道強化檢查權的節制跟社會的信任這個是他未來必須要非常非常重要去遵守的一塊"},{"start":5075.359,"end":5102.734,"text":"因為檢查權的這個強大如果說他沒有堅守所謂運作的透明性跟可受監督性那尤其在重大的這個案件可以適當的回應民主正當性的要求這個是沒有辦法獲得社會的信任的再來確立政治的中立以及法律適用的一致性這個非常重要"},{"start":5103.194,"end":5120.543,"text":"我想不管委員還有所有的學者專家一定都非常期待我們的檢查中長希望他能夠有更制度化的方式確保檢查權的行使不受外力的干預"},{"start":5122.301,"end":5135.298,"text":"檢查體系應該要堅守政治中立還有法律適用的一致性再來深化人權的保障以及冤錯平反的機制這個也是我們對於未來檢查總長"},{"start":5138.082,"end":5147.312,"text":"應該要特別特別希望他期待可以達到的尤其是在這個整個刑事訴訟程序的運作過程當中必須要造成惡勢的傷害的避免同時應該要強化冤錯假案的檢視或平反的機制"},{"start":5159.644,"end":5172.671,"text":"還有檢查一體的優化團隊治理我們期待未來的檢查中長他能夠透過整個資源的整合分工協作然後提升整個檢查系統的這個效力"},{"start":5175.192,"end":5197.187,"text":"承擔外部的壓力這個讓所有的第一線的檢察官能夠怎樣專注的依法辦案其實這是非常重要的最後我們要知道因應AI時代的來臨數位化的司法轉型這個是我們大家都要共同去注意到的一環"},{"start":5197.987,"end":5211.278,"text":"因為未來的司法競爭不只是法律能力更是科技治理的能力所以呢我們期待未來的這一個徐主任檢察官能夠注意到可以帶領整個檢查體系建立"},{"start":5214.48,"end":5231.226,"text":"對人工智慧制度的意識我們從人工智慧基本法的規範我們就可以看到基本法實行之後影響整個刑事司法體系然後它整個的偵查工作是從經驗導向轉向所謂的數據以演算"},{"start":5236.428,"end":5253.339,"text":"好 所以我們最後是要期待的如果習主任檢察官真正成為我們的檢察中長我們期待他能夠憑藉他的專業信念以當當不畏艱難 捍衛司法正義尤其面對AI以及數位轉型的挑戰我們期望"},{"start":5262.105,"end":5273.078,"text":"整個未來檢查總長能夠帶領整個檢查體系能夠非常穩健的來加以因應那以上是我個人的淺見感謝大家 謝謝"},{"start":5287.441,"end":5309.737,"text":"好 主席好 各位大家好那這個一開始我還是先抱怨一下這個公聽會的問題就是說我手邊的那個資料只有就是上禮拜給我的就只有一些這個被提名人的一些基本資料又是自傳"},{"start":5311.098,"end":5334.754,"text":"然後就我所知因為我剛才一進來那個民眾黨給我他們的那個問卷的回答那我是覺得應該如果民眾黨有的話那應該不管是國民黨或民進黨應該也都有我是覺得如果真的要真的要聽取我們的專業意見的話我想立法院這邊也要尊重我們一下好不好"},{"start":5335.527,"end":5362.78,"text":"至少這個問卷要事前都給我們吧如果有的話啦那所以呢這個到底今天這麼短的十分鐘到底是要我們來幹嘛這是我先對這個公定位的一個質疑然後再來就是說我僅能就根據這個好像我因為每年大概四五月開始啊大學就要進入那個申請入學的面試"},{"start":5363.92,"end":5390.097,"text":"那至少目前我看起來這個基本資料感覺起來真的真的跟我在看那個高中生申請入大學的那個是蠻像的啦所以基本上我也只能從這個這麼片段這麼有限來講述我的一個不能說提供什麼專業意見就發出我的想法啦那有關的過往的經歷前面兩位教授講了很多啦確實是非常的豐富啦"},{"start":5391.617,"end":5406.587,"text":"但是我這裡提出一個問題而且貝提米爾在這段裡面他也宣示了自己的人格特質剛才梁惠教授講了不接受觀眾等等欲視果斷 待人待心那這種人格特質的自我描述"},{"start":5408.086,"end":5426.52,"text":"看起來是蠻豐富的啦而且好像感覺起來蠻感動的但是在我看來就是比較虛無縹緲啦然後而且這裡呢我先針對這個人的提議就過去學仰這麼完備這麼經驗我是不是代表未來他當檢察總長絕對能夠公正跟客觀"},{"start":5431.113,"end":5446.175,"text":"我想有的時候我們常常講換的位置換的腦袋 這個我不曉得啦這個只能看時間的考驗啦好 那在貝提米蘭這個未來的期許呢她也引用了德國的一個學者的話吧"},{"start":5447.196,"end":5470.243,"text":"那這裡看起來也都符合我們對未來檢察總統的期待比方說要有中立性、要有客觀性、要公平等等然後尤其是這裡看到第二點檢察官力求真實正義因為他明白片面打擊被告的狂熱將減損效用與威信這個聽起來我非常的感動"},{"start":5473.629,"end":5495.279,"text":"但問題來了 這個到底是空話還是真心我說我不曉得再來因為真的很有限 我再強調這真的很像看高中生在申請入學的書面資料我就針對這個被提名人他針對他的自取的核心任務裡面我來提一些問題"},{"start":5496.88,"end":5519.796,"text":"他首先第一個針對堅守正式中立捍衛司法那他提到了這些什麼人很平等我就不講了那但是現在普遍因為檢查體系他畢竟就在法務部他是屬於法務部那這個在行政體系之下他本來大家對他的公正性就會有質疑"},{"start":5520.676,"end":5545.14,"text":"那到底目前大家對檢查體系的這樣一個公正性質疑那你檢察總長你至少你能不能花數一下至少你現在怎麼扭轉尤其是現在很多像類似的案件那個數字的旗艦的問題有些是拖了很久甚至有中間被擋下來的等等等那這些就檢察總統你上任以後該怎麼解決那剛剛老師有提出這個牽結的問題這個我一直認為是一個很大的問題"},{"start":5549.921,"end":5554.342,"text":"這個簽結它不是行送的規定但是在檢查體系還蠻常用的那這個簽結因為它不是不起訴所以我雖然簽結以後我可以拿兩半這個我認為是很容易淪為政治的工具那你身為一個檢察總長面對這個簽結的問題我覺得他也有義務去表達這個意見然後再來就是有關這個非常重要的非常究極的問題"},{"start":5573.687,"end":5598.586,"text":"尤其是有關這個非常上訴因為全國只有檢察中長這個權利那這個標準就是說你提起申請非常上訴的標準因為只要你檢察中長願意提起非常上訴成功的機率很高同樣的為被告利益申請債審如果是被告本身去提我看即使是我們刑事法的債審已經有修正了很多但是還是很難"},{"start":5600.708,"end":5623.607,"text":"但是如果檢察官這邊去提起相對來講會比較容易那到底你這個標準到底在哪裡然後再來就是剛才很多人都提到優化檢查的問題這個部分我也很贊同就是說檢察官因為你是獨任辦案所以基本上你要精準打擊最好就是專注於所謂的重大的案件但現在問題來了"},{"start":5625.188,"end":5641.173,"text":"那到底什麼是重大案件在被提名人提到他只是宣示的這個原則但是我們要問啊我覺得這裡我比較會關注的是目前如果刑事案件這麼繁多的情況之下那你約好檢察官去做精準的打擊"},{"start":5642.193,"end":5669.705,"text":"那我反倒會覺得那你這個跟司法警察之間相互的互動關係如何有理是在剛才兩位學者都有提到這一點我也關注到這一點就是被提名人在是候補檢察隊的時候我看到的雖然張立新老師剛才提到健為之助他看的跟我不一樣我看到的是什麼他在候補的時候他就不相信警察"},{"start":5672.086,"end":5694.136,"text":"我看到了是不是 不知道後面這一路走來他應該常常要調動警察嘛對不對那他現在跟他的互動關係是怎麼樣所以在這個部分呢所以我講到這裡我就看到說這個被提到這些自我自我期許的核心核心任務好像都是點一下就沒有了"},{"start":5695.84,"end":5720.276,"text":"我不知道 我只要我能繼續提問題啦然後再來更重要的是 這個漢威南前編他提到那個 不能只追求定罪率因為我看到這個 實在是每次華部每年老師喜歡動不動就說我們的定罪率超過96%啦但是還不以這個為滿足啦要以日本的99.9%啦"},{"start":5722.626,"end":5731.231,"text":"這個我每次看到華為部在講這種話我就非常生氣啊因為各位要知道啊日本那個99.9%的定罪率它帶來什麼結果嗎冤罪嘛 冤錯假案嘛欸 可是喔 欸這個皮利門在這裡喔他有特別強調不能怎樣 一直去追求定罪率欸 這個是我贊同的可是問題來了你的上司啊 一直在強調這個東西啊那你怎麼跟你的上司啊 去泄露這件事情啊"},{"start":5753.868,"end":5780.501,"text":"我覺得這個是你敢這樣寫但是你未來敢不敢這樣做呢這個是我一個很大的疑問那再來就是剛才都有提到政察不公開這個政察不公開我每次在上課都會講說這個政察不公開走出法律系刑事綜合獎堂他的管弦會只有在法律系的刑事綜合獎堂之上走不出去"},{"start":5781.69,"end":5806.686,"text":"然後每次碰到這個問題我就發現到一個更慘的結果各位我有的時候會三不五時去台北地檢署他有一個偵查不公開的統計我發現他們陳案去進行調查的案件不少每一劑大概也都有兩三百件可是這幾年我發現到真正有被懲處的幾個人好像只有兩個人"},{"start":5809.693,"end":5836.009,"text":"而且這兩個人是不是檢查體系的不是啊 是司法警察所以倒楣的就是警察難怪我們這個貝提敏他在世俗還年輕的時候就不相信警察是這樣嗎檢查體系本身都沒有問題那乾潔點就在於說你自己人調查自己人嘛就算真的不是檢查體系這樣檢查體系裡面洩出來的但是你自己人調查自己人嘛所以呢"},{"start":5836.994,"end":5852.339,"text":"大家又會不相信嘛好 那因為時間的關係啦我呢 最後再提到直接跳到我這個 PowerPoint 的最後三章就是說 這個有關這個這一個自傳裡面最讓我驚訝的是有關適度公開這個偵查資訊的問題但一樣 它沒有繼續再寫下去那我現在就要問啦"},{"start":5863.029,"end":5878.358,"text":"這裡所謂的在偵查階段要適度公開到底是要公開什麼是對被告或者是對證人他的一個詢問的一個全程錄音錄影內容嗎"},{"start":5881.206,"end":5898.867,"text":"這個是一個很大的問題喔如果只是說 按照偵查罪犯法裡面為了要找追緝這個所謂的 譴詐的犯罪人的話那老實講不用特別寫嘛那有關這個部分呢 基本上呢就是呢 這個我直接的跳到這個最後 然後呢"},{"start":5899.688,"end":5916.691,"text":"這個因為時間也亮每次這個鈴聲一亮就開始就亂掉所以我趕快最後我自己的幾個總結我剛才那裡的提問就是說第一個因為這個被提名人他提到了很多的自我期許的任務老實講在我看來都跟華澳部長"},{"start":5917.512,"end":5932.995,"text":"之間的權責相互重疊那到底你怎麼跟你的防護部長做一個協調 這第一個第二個就是說 檢察中長因為那個蔡高潛退除掉特政組以後他的什麼 他手下沒兵啊"},{"start":5934.076,"end":5958.089,"text":"那他在前面提到的這些東西他到底呢我是要藉由高檢署去調兵還是我直接可以下去調這個部分檢察中長可能也要說清楚再來就是有關我剛才一直強調的檢查體系跟檢查體系尤其是有關酸政策主體我覺得檢察中長應該表達他的意見然後再來更重要的是避免自己人查自己人那是不是我們要成立所謂由人民組成的這個檢審會"},{"start":5960.35,"end":5985.208,"text":"所以呢 我最後啦 因為在最後這個報告裡面呢他提到啦 他說他的自我的期待就是真正服務於法律 正理人性跟和平 而不是只有空話但在我看來 事實上我也不能說完全是空話但是空話可能在我感覺是比較一半的那不過不管怎麼樣 就算是空話這個期許呢 我也是對檢察總長的一個期待"},{"start":5985.888,"end":6005.362,"text":"我是希望就是說不要我每次紅色標起來的不要每次我一直跟學生上課的時候講什麼罪行法定無罪推定罪以為清什麼證據裁判證查不公開只能在國家考試用永遠走不出法律學的牆壁這個是我對未來的檢察狀最真心的期待謝謝好 謝謝老師那接下來我們請葉慶元律師 謝謝"},{"start":6028.793,"end":6053.076,"text":"主席在場的各位學者專家還有政府的官員還有媒體的不知道有沒有媒體記者大家早安大家好今天還是很榮幸能夠到立法院來參與針對檢查總長提名人的這個公聽會其實也很習慣也很不習慣就是每次我們當學者專家來然後都是沒有委除了主席外大概都沒有委員其實我們也不知道要講給誰聽"},{"start":6054.639,"end":6076.826,"text":"那我覺得回過頭來,當我們在看檢察總長的這個提名案的時候那其實我覺得我們真的其實可以思考說我們需要的是什麼樣的檢察總長當我們在面對每年有數十位檢察官離開這個辭職尤其可能是10年到20年的資深檢察官離開檢察體系"},{"start":6078.967,"end":6103.163,"text":"決定去當律師或者是呢其實在我們統計書上常常另外看不到的是決定轉任法官那我們真正想要問的是說到底我們現在營造的是什麼樣的工作環境讓這些資深的檢察官覺得說我不要再當檢察官了這個工作沒有榮譽感了這個工作從大家要想喔從他們一開始當檢察官的時候案件壓力就是這麼大的"},{"start":6103.983,"end":6126.502,"text":"那個時候還沒有AI還沒有那麼多的東西來幫助檢察官辦案為什麼當他們做了十幾二十年以後覺得我不要跟你玩了只是因為當律師錢比較多嗎只是因為自己在市場上的價值增加了嗎還是說在現在的體系之下讓資深的檢察官覺得我在這個工作裡面已經找不到榮譽感了"},{"start":6128.104,"end":6145.121,"text":"在過去幾年我們其實看到一些狀況其實是讓我們很憂心的啦我們其實看到檢查體系跟媒體的關聯好像越來越緊密我們律師界在長安的法界有幾大笑話"},{"start":6146.122,"end":6169.144,"text":"就是有一天開庭,法官跟律師跟檢察官三個人在聊天,說我們來講講法界的笑話法官就講說無罪推定,大家覺得很好笑檢察官就說偵查不公開,大家也就哄堂大笑我們律師都說檢察官的偵查不公開,就是不對被告跟辯護律師公開"},{"start":6170.265,"end":6195.569,"text":"然後出去每次檢察官耳提念命三命五生跟被告說你出去不能講喔我們偵查不公開喔你這個勾串喔我們說好好好過兩天發現媒體全爆了那這個其實會營造什麼其實會營造檢察官透過特定的媒體大家現在把禁傳媒稱為禁檢我覺得這真的不能拿來當笑話這個其實是一件很悲哀的事情檢察官透過特定的媒體"},{"start":6196.309,"end":6212.577,"text":"去針對被告進行有罪的描繪去影響社會的輿論到最後去影響特定的被告被定罪的機率這個是不可以接受的事實那如果淨檢跟"},{"start":6214.858,"end":6238.449,"text":"淨傳媒跟地檢署的合作甚至還有政黨的考量如果是特定政黨的被告就會受到淨傳媒的好好妥善的全面的鉅細靡遺的照顧把偵查的內容拿來全部公開就算最後他被判了罪"},{"start":6239.289,"end":6260.894,"text":"如何能夠讓民眾覺得他就是活該他就是罪有應得而在這個過程裡面檢查體系跟媒體的合作已經使得人民對整個司法體系失去了信心在這個裡面我們有沒有看到檢查總長的被提名人"},{"start":6261.755,"end":6281.235,"text":"去針對這件事情真正的說他在他擔任檢察長地方檢察長的期間內怎麼去處理這個事情我們其實沒有看到那其實我看到陳宏達主任檢察官也有在他的書面意見提到就是呢我們的檢察總長被提名人其實在高檢"},{"start":6282.276,"end":6310.683,"text":"的資歷是不足的他沒有當過台灣高檢署的檢察長那這也沒有關係他如果曾經在高檢署擔任過長一段相當期間三年也好六年也好的主任檢察官那我們了解說他在這個體系裡面有長期的時間去檢視地檢署的起訴起訴或不起訴的處分不管是到高檢不管是到高等法院立庭論告也好"},{"start":6311.323,"end":6338.295,"text":"或是針對不起訴處分這個申請在意去進行檢視也好他可以從一個比較高的角度回頭去省思到底地檢署在起訴或不起訴這邊有什麼需要改善的地方高檢署其實定期也會針對地檢署的辦案去進行統計、去進行調查這個是會站在一個比較高的高度去重新思考地檢署的辦案的問題但是很遺憾這個"},{"start":6340.697,"end":6348.124,"text":"被提名人他其實在高檢署大家可以回去翻他的簡歷真正待的時間大概只有一年不到"},{"start":6349.263,"end":6376.42,"text":"另外還有一個到高檢署的本部大概只待了兩天馬上借調到國安局這樣到底是正常還是不正常妥當還是不妥當就是說他如果根本沒有在台灣高檢署待過足夠的時間沒有足夠的精力去了解說從高等檢察署怎麼去看地檢署的辦案"},{"start":6377.08,"end":6401.136,"text":"他是不是能夠妥適的擔任最高檢察署的檢察總長的角色我覺得這個是可以去思考的另外其實我們可以去想想就是說其實在這我們大家其實對檢察長這過去幾屆檢察長我們其實反而最懷念的是什麼是在有特偵組的檢察總長的時候檢察總長底下有兵可以真的辦案"},{"start":6402.497,"end":6431.463,"text":"可以真的去摒棄政治的干預去辦理重大貪毒案件那麼我們在被提名人他的簡歷、自傳他的自己期許裡面沒有看到相關的說明也許是避嫌吧可是我覺得這是非常可惜的檢察總長對自己的期許到底是什麼到底怎麼樣期待我們可不可以期待他未來能夠帶領檢察體系不受到政治力量的干涉"},{"start":6432.544,"end":6451.364,"text":"我們知道前一位檢察總長他是在台北地檢署檢察長的任內這個親自召開記者會公開宣稱我帶領專案小組的主任檢察官開了一百多次會議親自跟他們開會最後決定起訴馬英九"},{"start":6453.41,"end":6467.915,"text":"我那時候看到的時候下巴都快掉下來了我記得我們念大學的時候檢察官跳出來說我是司法官我不是行政官檢查一體應該是行政上的資源而不是帶領辦案而不是干涉辦案"},{"start":6468.695,"end":6483.714,"text":"那邢太昭檢察長後來因為起訴有功就升任台灣高檢署的檢察長最後又升任檢察總長那面對這樣子的一個狀況那我們的被提名人他有沒有不同的想法"},{"start":6484.346,"end":6509.512,"text":"他到底要怎麼樣去杜絕政治勢力進入檢查體系讓檢查一體變成高層指揮檢察官我看不到很具體的作為他說他拒絕關說有沒有具體的案例我沒有看到那我們其實更常看到的是在過去幾年裡面針對特定政黨就對執政黨提出的任何質疑剛剛其實吳景青老師在說牽結到底牽結是什麼"},{"start":6512.392,"end":6515.548,"text":"如果你覺得他無罪,根本不構成犯罪,你就不起訴嘛"},{"start":6516.653,"end":6544.679,"text":"為什麼要簽結這是在幹嘛你其實是受不了壓力然後所以你沒有辦法你又做不出不起訴處分所以你就把它簽結疫苗案這個口罩案快篩案然後再來我們的這個相關的肉品進口一些奇怪的小吃店這個做裝潢的到最後都掌握了高價的這個輸入的特許行業"},{"start":6545.679,"end":6563.524,"text":"為什麼做得到?為什麼檢察官都沒有查?為什麼最後都簽結?檢察總統要如何能夠確保檢察官真的有辦案的獨立性不受到政黨的干涉,該起訴就起訴該不起訴就不起訴,而不是最後要被迫簽結我看不到檢察總統針對這個地方去做處理"},{"start":6566.331,"end":6591.165,"text":"那我們要如何確保不會因為政黨而有差別的待遇當如果老百姓看到,我們現在都在開玩笑有沒有事,你看有沒有律師制黨證你如果辦了律師制黨證,就大事化小,小事化無,千劫不起訴你如果沒有律師制黨證,那你就可能會遭到非常悲慘的待遇"},{"start":6592.126,"end":6599.278,"text":"也許一省可以換你清白或是不幸到二省來換你清白但是中間這個過程的煎熬怎麼辦"},{"start":6602.031,"end":6622.189,"text":"另外其實我也很好奇啦我也很希望看到檢察中央我也期待立法委員可以再跟檢察中央討論的是在大法官將死刑改成全體法官一致決之後對於死刑犯的非常上訴機制會不會相對應的調整以前我們大家都知道死刑犯其實可能檢察中央不斷的透過非常上訴機制"},{"start":6622.97,"end":6647.739,"text":"去給予他延緩死刑的執行未來在已經改成全體自決之後還有沒有必要我覺得是可以思考的那以上這些是我粗淺的意見跟大家參考 謝謝謝謝那所有的學者專家跟登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢了那接著呢就請機關代表來發言發言時間會是五分鐘那有請這個法務部長或次長馮淳 謝謝"},{"start":6658.581,"end":6673.925,"text":"主席還有我們尊敬的各位專家學者有很多是我敬愛的之前的長官還有我們的好朋友還有我敬愛的教授們事實上今天非常感謝張昭偉能夠舉辦我們總長審查的一個公聽會"},{"start":6679.847,"end":6700.106,"text":"那這樣的一個機會 可以讓我們請聽一下各位專家 學者 我們教授的一個意見那大家在這樣的一個短短的時間裡面或許不能充分的表達但是也把重要的事項 其實都已經有提出來 各自對於"},{"start":6700.766,"end":6725.478,"text":"我們檢察總長的一個這樣條件的一個就是說看法以及對於我們檢方未來的一個這樣的一個期許或者是一些發展都有寶貴的一個意見那在一個部分上我們會帶回去就法務部這邊會作為珍貴的一個意見上的一個參考我們會回去對於我們的政策各方面來講再做一個就是研究看看有沒有更精進的一個部分"},{"start":6726.178,"end":6754.55,"text":"那至於檢察總長的這個職務 事實上我想全國都很重視因為如同我們幾位專家學者都有提到事實上檢察總長這一個工作 他不是僅僅就是一個職位他代表的是我們檢察官裡面整體性的一個未來那我們將來怎麼樣能夠領導我們的檢察官們就是說走到未來我們的工作上能夠有沒有帶走出我們的一個願景"},{"start":6755.41,"end":6774.251,"text":"那這個部分上是非常重要的那大家所提到的這些寶貴的意見我相信我們回去也會提供我們的被提名人許主任讓他了解那或許他在明天的審查的一個部分"},{"start":6775.152,"end":6789.268,"text":"那個委員提問中或許他自己在表達的時候他可以針對今天我們學者們提的一些寶貴的意見或者一些詢問 槌尋做一些更深入更仔細的一個回答那麼在這邊其實"},{"start":6790.809,"end":6817.884,"text":"也要特別感謝各位專家教授對於我們這個法務部很多這個等於算說我們的一些政策上的一些這樣的一個提醒事實上以我在廉政署擔任署長工作的一個期間事實上我們一直在追求的也就是說我們的一個貪污案件上我們能夠就是說盡量做到證據明確程序嚴謹跟保障人權"},{"start":6818.964,"end":6837.623,"text":"這個部分上事實上不是數字上的一個追求但數字它是客觀的一個檢視那我們也是作為一個提醒不會說作為說我們一個自瞞的一個部分所以說剛剛我們有幾位的這個學者們都有提到說這個我們的一個貪污的一個我們的一個案件的正確性96%"},{"start":6839.424,"end":6866.772,"text":"6%以上其實事實上那個部分只是做一個客觀上的一個數據的一個管理然後我們也會經如果說有不足有下滑我們會更深入的去檢視那但是事實上不會以此而自滿因為每一個案件都是最重要的我擔任檢察官這麼多年的一個時間我想我們那個崇達主任也都了解我們在辦任何一個案子在我們出手那一刻我們都是確信他是百分之百我們認為是無愧於我們自己的法律的專業"},{"start":6867.492,"end":6894.48,"text":"在這個部分上我會我們這個所有的檢察官體的同仁裡面其實事實上都有這樣的一個基本的素養那至於我們的被提名人我們很感謝我們剛剛有幾位共事過的這樣的一個教授方教授 劉教授都有針對他們在共事之間對於我們的這個徐主任檢察官的一個人格特質有做一個描述也針對跟他共事的一個經驗認為他是五星級的一個"},{"start":6897.221,"end":6926.541,"text":"總長的一個這個候選人那我覺得在這樣的一個情況之下其實事實上是表示說我們這一次提名的人選他的一個無論精力上或者是無論是在人格操守上都是非常的傑出的那另外就是說其實還有一些我們委員們對於說這個有一些資歷上是不是說還有一些不完美就是說還有一些欠缺的這個部分事實上沒有一個人的資歷是完美的"},{"start":6927.221,"end":6945.234,"text":"我想如果說在每一個資歷上說要去這個細究的話大概這個很困難我們只能從我們檢察官體系裡面的優秀的這個檢察官們中挑出一個最適合領導我們檢方未來希望能夠帶著我們檢方往前走那麼帶著檢察官能夠如同我們剛剛"},{"start":6946.107,"end":6969.265,"text":"我們這個葉律師講的事實上要有一個願景要能夠提升檢察官的一個驕傲跟使命感讓我們能夠更就是所有更驕傲的不是說驕傲啦更有自信的往前走那以上是我們法務部對於各位委員還有我們今天這個主席他們提供這個共聽會的一個意見謝謝大家 謝謝"},{"start":6972.093,"end":6994.633,"text":"謝謝次長那請問在場的學者專家是否要進行第二輪的發言如果想要進行第二輪的發言的話那我們現在可以到這邊來登進那第二輪發言的話每位發言時間是三分鐘好那如果沒有的話呢好那我們今日公聽會的發言就到此告一段落那感謝所有的與會者提供諸多的寶貴意見那今天各位所有的發言內容跟書面意見呢"},{"start":6996.124,"end":7014.742,"text":"以及委員等所提供的書面資料都會列入記錄刊登公報並製作成公聽會報告送交本院全體委員及本日初列席人員作為之後審查本人事同意案的參考那本次的公聽會到此結束謝謝大家 現在散會 謝謝"},{"start":7026.323,"end":7026.683,"text":"蕃茄"},{"start":7046.772,"end":7046.812,"text":"謝謝大家"}]}},{"id":"168224","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168224","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/70d8fc05dcd8abb08d2f7f2c03317228f747912251df0827212c5ce4660756d3fd79bbc0b0a3b3945ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"10:02:49 - 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尤其這個通膨症這個越來越嚴重的情況之下"},{"start":448.53,"end":469.711,"text":"那讓詐騙似乎更有機可乘在這樣的一個情況之下要怎麼樣有效的去遏止新型態的AI詐騙我想這個規範是非常的重要所以本席具體要請教你要怎麼樣明確這個法律責任跟這個監理的一個機制而不是只有靠平台的一個制律"},{"start":471.313,"end":484.092,"text":"這個在法律面來講分成兩部分來講第一個我們是希望所有AI生成的影像都必須標示明確標示它是AI生成的那這件事情我們那個你所謂的必須標示當然民眾希望啊什麼時候可以落實"},{"start":485.374,"end":509.924,"text":"這個因為我們必須跟美國的你現在談的進度怎麼樣請教你認為成功率如何兩個禮拜前我到Google在那個San Francisco的那個總部已經跟他們談過一次然後隔一個禮拜以後他們那個亞太區的總裁馬上就跑來找我我們在會談中都有談到這個事情有一個溝通那你認為你預估什麼時候可以讓民眾來放心有這個標誌"},{"start":511.204,"end":534.527,"text":"是我們現在先從那個勸說的方式希望他們去主動標示那在立法因為這個立法當然還有立法的過程那我們現在希望說就是說不用動到立法那個Google或者是Meta這樣的平台都能合作那目前我們已經得到Google的友善回應他們願意往這個方向去發展那你認為什麼時候可以開始讓我們民眾可以安心"},{"start":534.887,"end":563.278,"text":"我們是希望說可以有這個標誌一個月之內我們是希望六個月之內對 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請下林部長好 我請林部長"},{"start":14.161,"end":34.046,"text":"委員長 部長好打炸是蘇花部重要的工作跟責任之一今天我們就針對打炸的成效以及詐騙形態改變來進行相關的檢討我們看到2025年我們針對全台的炸器案件"},{"start":35.006,"end":61.586,"text":"其實它發生了大概19萬7595件那投資詐騙還是佔最大宗了佔了大概將近29%那但是它的發生率在蘇花部的努力之下它是有下降如果以這個2025年第四季來跟前一季的同一年的同季來做比較那下降了大概52%左右"},{"start":62.927,"end":69.893,"text":"但是這個時候我們就看到我們相關的這種詐騙已經逐漸從投資詐騙轉向到網拍網路的這種拍賣的這種詐騙那假網路的這種拍賣購物的這種詐騙2025年發生了35443件大概佔了詐騙的這個17%左右那受害者"},{"start":90.691,"end":98.165,"text":"年齡都是年輕人居多那以23歲以下的年輕族群為主那這樣類型的詐騙網路的這種購物的詐騙"},{"start":102.318,"end":124.409,"text":"以去年的第四季就已經創下這五季來的最高而且啊年增率達到百分之二十二以上那我們現在針對這種金額雖然比較低但是數量多的這種詐騙的新型態啊速發部的偵測跟下架的手段我認為必須要檢討跟加強我們現在有AI的這樣的一個掃描"},{"start":130.151,"end":153.897,"text":"來打擊這樣一個詐騙的狀況那成效如何來說明一下OK 事實上我們就是我們如同我們之前常常講就是打詐基本上是好人之間不斷的攻防我們把一些漏洞堵住以後這個詐騙集團就尋找新的漏洞那以前都是以高齡投資詐騙大金額的為主那現在變成說是比較年輕的族群然後是這種小的金額這種"},{"start":157.318,"end":179.454,"text":"拍賣的這種網路拍賣的這種詐騙為主好那這個事實上詐騙集團為什麼往這個方向發展其實有一個原因就是因為這類的詐騙我現在請教你的是AI掃描這種網路的詐騙成效如何啦是那我們現在每天就是可以那個找到那個"},{"start":180.802,"end":197.887,"text":"找到那五千到一萬筆的那個疑似詐騙的那個訊息那現在最大的問題是要判斷那我要判斷說這則那個詐騙訊息是真的還是假的那AI因為它本身的詐騙那個判斷有兩個問題第一個是它有所謂的那個偽陽性跟偽陰性的問題"},{"start":198.767,"end":212.395,"text":"這個是AI系統所不能克服的另外一個是法律責任的問題我如果直接用AI去判斷直接就要那個平台去下架的時候到時候會發生紛爭這個政府我必須負責任不是啊 我們現在刷布雖然有用AI來偵測這些相關的網路的詐騙但是啊"},{"start":215.637,"end":234.548,"text":"這樣的一個2025年第四季的這種假網拍的網路的這種購物詐騙卻是創下新高這顯示我們目前這種AI的偵測模型是過於僵化必須要有所改進我們對於相關的關鍵字以及它的樣態"},{"start":235.549,"end":262.926,"text":"是必須要去做調整因為過去都是以名人啊投資來做為一個偵測的一個重要的基礎但是形態已經改變了是我們說的完全沒錯部長另外就是說投資詐騙啊是單件的財損很高是而且政府投下大筆的預算啊去促使這一些下架的這種狀況那發生頻率現在最高啊而且"},{"start":264.262,"end":284.55,"text":"嚴重影響年輕人這種假網拍的這樣的一個狀況也不能因為他的單案金額比較低而放鬆他的一個警惕那我現在要請教你說我們面對這種低金額高數量的民生網拍的詐騙那數位部的這樣的一個人力跟預算"},{"start":285.47,"end":310.85,"text":"有沒有能力去承擔這樣一個長期的挑戰來簡單說明一下的確我們在那個經費上面會有相當大的壓力所以我們希望說立法院能多支持我們我們今年的預算趕快省然後趕快讓我們能投入新的研發那在那個AI的model方面我們每個月都會用最新的詐騙的資料去訓練黃天志跟楊太必須要做調整是我們每個月都會"},{"start":311.411,"end":315.956,"text":"而且必須跟教育部合作我們對於校園的宣傳針對23歲以下的年輕人對這種網路的詐騙購物的詐騙必須要作為教育宣傳的一個重點另外我們針對我們"},{"start":327.108,"end":349.31,"text":"台灣的海底電纜的安全必須要來討論一下我們的海底電纜目前台灣有15條的國際通訊海纜有10條的國內通訊的海纜那國內離島的這些電纜它容量有限而且備援不足而且容易被漁船或者是挖泥船來破壞"},{"start":350.891,"end":371.034,"text":"那當然我們為了強化離島的這種通訊的韌性政府有推動相關的台碼4號台澎4號以及澎金4號預計在2026年的New Year會全數的完工那我們現在必須要來討論就是說面對中共"},{"start":371.835,"end":380.179,"text":"用這種影子艦隊形式發動的這種混合戰啊政府雖然已經修正了海嵐棋法但實際上啊"},{"start":381.752,"end":405.719,"text":"我們還是面臨很大的一個實務的困境那我們看到以宏泰58號漁廠為例這個多戈級的這樣的一個貨輪宏泰58號雖然中華電信也對他們提起民事的一些求償而且法院也判定了判刑三年船長判刑三年而且需要賠償1822萬但是"},{"start":410.04,"end":434.471,"text":"這個執行你也知道執行難度非常的高那面對中共以這種影子艦隊來這種形式發動的混合戰實務上我們面臨到一些困境那我們數位部如何確保沒收這種犯罪的傳播這樣一個強而有力的執法工具能夠在2026年能夠確實發揮嚇阻作用來簡單說明一下"},{"start":439.113,"end":462.887,"text":"OK 這個首先就是說我們必須跟那個海巡署這邊合作就是說在發生這些事情的時候要收集各種證據那另外我們這邊我們在任信司這邊我們現在也訂出了就是明確的這個這個就是在事後如何鑑識說到底是那個實際上是那個是不小心割斷的還是說是人為破壞的這個我們有一些"},{"start":463.587,"end":486.824,"text":"部長我必須要提醒我們必須要對於平緩在海南周邊徘徊而且關閉這種自動識別系統就是AIS的這種無名船隻海軍署他們有說要做環島的智慧型的岸際的監控是沒錯這個什麼時候會跟數位部來進行合作跟對接"},{"start":491.146,"end":504.155,"text":"實踐真正的這種海陸空一體的這種韌性的強化來謝謝委員的詢詢委員非常了解這一題那基本上我們除了電液業者AS做監控以外另外就是海巡署岸基雷達"},{"start":504.875,"end":529.712,"text":"那安西雷達部分他們只要玩因為他現在在建設當中建設完成以後會立刻跟所有電信海欄的業者做分享另外海運署他們也運用所謂的空中的無人機也開始在做籌劃的動作那相關預算通過以後接下來那個等於海陸空整理防衛會更好問題的話是在總預算都還沒有處理啦那我們也必須去推廣我們國產的這種DAS的監控技術那"},{"start":533.442,"end":555.887,"text":"我們必須要補助海南業者在關鍵的上岸段的全面來安裝這種分散式的光纖感測的技術就是ADS來主動預警這些傳播異常下錨的這種行為我們必須要強化跟各機關的合作層級"},{"start":557.307,"end":579.046,"text":"我必須很嚴肅的提出我們要整合海巡 數位部 交通部 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10:10:31","影片長度":"00:13:44","會議時間":"2026-04-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、經濟部、衛生福利部、農業部就「穩定供給與減塑並進：因應國際原物料波動之原物料穩定供應及我國減塑治理進程」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n\n討論事項\n一、審查「廢棄物清理法條文修正草案」9案：\n（一）委員馬文君等17人擬具「廢棄物清理法第五條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員顏寬恒等19人擬具「廢棄物清理法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員顏寬恒等17人擬具「廢棄物清理法第五條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員林淑芬等22人擬具「廢棄物清理法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員張宏陸等17人擬具「廢棄物清理法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員邱議瑩等21人擬具「廢棄物清理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員許智傑等29人擬具「廢棄物清理法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員劉建國等19人擬具「廢棄物清理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「廢棄物清理法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查「資源回收再利用法修正草案」2案：\n（一）委員許智傑等28人擬具「資源回收再利用法修正草案」案。\n（二）委員盧縣一等16人擬具「資源回收再利用法修正草案」案。\n【專題報告及法律案綜合詢答，法律案僅詢答】\n【4月8日及9日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-04-08","start_time":"2026-04-08T09:56:47+08:00","end_time":"2026-04-08T10:10:31+08:00","duration":824,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":5,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-5-26-5"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.227843750000002,"end":16.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.34909375,"end":17.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.656593750000003,"end":21.512843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.816593750000003,"end":30.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.43971875,"end":37.172843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":37.814093750000005,"end":39.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.619718750000004,"end":58.24971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":58.63784375,"end":72.89721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":72.98159375,"end":89.50221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":89.92409375000001,"end":99.82971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":100.31909375000001,"end":100.89284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":102.05721875,"end":105.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":106.00596875000001,"end":107.42346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.99721875,"end":130.12034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.55909375000002,"end":137.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.93784375,"end":137.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.49034375000002,"end":181.52159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":181.58909375000002,"end":200.99534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.86659375000002,"end":188.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.90846875000003,"end":190.31346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.07971875,"end":207.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.03659375,"end":233.41221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":211.08659375000002,"end":211.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.21284375000002,"end":213.26346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":213.26346875000002,"end":213.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.48284375,"end":213.55034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":225.49784375000002,"end":225.93659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":233.71596875,"end":262.48784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.09534375000004,"end":287.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":268.83284375,"end":269.17034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":287.76659375,"end":317.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":318.44534375,"end":322.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.27159375,"end":330.98346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":327.38909375000003,"end":327.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":330.67971875,"end":334.17284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.27409375,"end":340.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":339.08346875,"end":339.31971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":340.31534375,"end":353.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.94346875,"end":344.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.29784375,"end":344.34846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":353.81534375,"end":405.40221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":405.40221875000003,"end":439.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":414.83534375000005,"end":415.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":417.06284375,"end":417.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":439.57409375000003,"end":455.23409375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":455.75721875000005,"end":455.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":455.77409375,"end":456.21284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":456.26346875,"end":460.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":460.27971875000003,"end":462.00096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":461.07284375,"end":466.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":466.37159375000005,"end":495.02534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":494.75534375,"end":513.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":513.01409375,"end":531.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":531.7959687499999,"end":555.9778437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":551.23596875,"end":551.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":555.9778437500001,"end":557.4797187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":557.4797187500001,"end":560.584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是有開罰是不是我們這個會後再把資料給委員這邊可以那所以聽起來是紙餐具有其他是沒有嗎紙餐具是一個就是他那個就是欠繳情形比較嚴重的是那其他也是有"},{"start":340.521,"end":364.93,"text":"也只有那可不可以一併的把資料完整的讓我們了解一下是好ok那接著呢我來問請回好那再請部長我想問你再接下來是想問光電板的回收那光電板呢他如同我們剛講的一般廢棄物他也是要跟業者也是要跟經濟部來繳納回收處理費用那使用的標準呢是每千瓦一千元"},{"start":365.51,"end":381.818,"text":"所以經濟部收取了這個費用之後他會把這筆錢納入再生能源基金然後經濟部從再生能源基金再拿一些費用出來補助環境部去進行光電板回收處理的業務那但是呢比較可惜的是行政院的主計"},{"start":382.438,"end":405.183,"text":"月刊提出來說如果你每千瓦收1000元的話其實到了2045年你只能夠收到173億但實際上支出成本是397億所以這當中有200億的落差那於是呢就會讓我們產生一個想法那這不就是如同我們剛剛所言的嗎又會出現入不敷出的情形那部長不知道您怎麼看"},{"start":405.563,"end":422.368,"text":"好委員因為這個光電板大量產出應該是在127、128還有10多年的時間那我們是從108年開始收那的確那時候訂的就是1000塊那當然現在如果像去年有大量的產出但是他沒有用到這個基金是他自己"},{"start":422.768,"end":439.428,"text":"必須去付費去處理掉當成廢棄物去處理掉所以基本上目前如果未來的量夠其實那個費用就會往下降現在因為量很少就一百多噸其實怎麼做都划不來所以相對的這個目前一年大概只有到目前為止只有支出七千多萬而已"},{"start":439.628,"end":466.177,"text":"您確定是100多噸嗎?因為我的辦公室有去函問環境部然後我們問說從108年5月到去年12月這些廢光電板的處理狀況如何?他們回答說總清理量是6074公噸那是天災天災是業者付的這個是自然到使用年限之後淘汰的天災是業者自己要去處理費用的"},{"start":466.477,"end":473.541,"text":"所以這裡的6074億當中你的意思是有些是天災所導致的太陽能板的耗損然後它的回收處理是業者要處理那可以讓我們知道比例嗎因為這裡就一個數字6074我們也無從監督說有多少是來自於業者自行處理掉有些是用我們的所謂再生能源基金去處理可能要資訊透明化我們才能夠進一步來做一些比較有效的監視"},{"start":495.251,"end":511.991,"text":"對委員這個其實是有一個長期的趨勢啦所以現在目前還沒有到當然未來我們的這個未來的這個志願循環推動法裡面我們希望這個部分是由我們環境部來處理做這個事就跟回收基金是一樣的就不用現在那麼麻煩我們要到能源署那邊跟他們申請經費來做處理"},{"start":513.612,"end":531.206,"text":"所以這也是我下面要問你的就是說在森林園基金我們很好奇說每年補助環境部多少錢那實際支出的費用又多少那會不會有這種入不敷出然後最後變成要從資源回收基金去挖泉來填補這我想這是我們人民比較關心的"},{"start":533.308,"end":550.502,"text":"目前在太陽能板的回收基金是由能源署這邊用它的法規徵收的現在累積是20億元我們現在把需要用的一個費用就跟能源署用申請計畫的方式然後跟能源署由他的經營來提供給我們"},{"start":551.543,"end":580.218,"text":"譬如說我是要補貼費或者有些行政管理費用是所以你說的21億是他給21億是他全部收的錢你說再生能源基金裡頭有20億對再生能源基金有20億對那我們這邊好奇的是那他補貼給你們的實際費用多少那你們有沒有足夠夠用或不夠用的問題因為我們擔心萬一不夠用挖東牆補西牆這可能也是我們要關切的地方是"},{"start":580.478,"end":601.563,"text":"那有資料嗎如果沒有資料就匯後給我盤整一下匯後給我那當然我有注意到部長您非常關心光電板回收的一個費用的問題您覺得也不夠高所以需要提升甚至如同你所說的可能都需要修法你剛剛有提到但是從您有這個態度一直到現在應該也快一年了"},{"start":601.903,"end":614.513,"text":"可是我們現在光電板的回收還是維持在每千瓦一千所以代表從過去一年到現在還是有點原地不動的感覺那當然今天早上我有提名的報告嘛你只想積極的推動把光電驗板納為因回收的廢棄物然後把它納進去廢棄物清理法的一個管理範圍那才能夠可與僱主回收處理的責任"},{"start":628.524,"end":635.809,"text":"我想我有聽到這個你的最新進度啦只是說因為當時你說第四會期就要處理結果我們現在第五會期雖然早上有聽到說已經行政院會通過了但是好像還沒進入立法院的大門嘛所以我們期待你趕快讓這部法進入立法院的大門因為據我了解很多立委真的是在幫環境部心急也要提出一個跟你們類似的版本那我覺得經過一年的漫長等待因為九月你們還發新聞稿心事旦旦"},{"start":658.824,"end":664.428,"text":"10月卓院長又指示了 長官指示下來那特別卓院長一直把行動內閣奉為規約嘛那你總不能說他號稱行動內閣啊你這邊不動內閣好像就有一點這個說不過去所以希望你們現在已經院會通過了行政院會還沒通過快要通過那請問一下送到立法院的時間表今天能夠呈現出來嗎"},{"start":686.421,"end":702.92,"text":"呃我必須因為行政院會還沒有開我不能說今天說什麼時候就怎麼樣但是目前已經呃最後一個程序了那目前呃委員跟委員報告因為這個這個呃循環法不是我們環境部的格局已經到達一個整個跨部會整個行政院的層級所以他的確比較複雜"},{"start":704.261,"end":722.49,"text":"要跨單位的協商而當中也遇到一些土石方的這個事情所以推出的時機我們也稍微考量了一下那剛好現在等於是水到渠成我們認為這時候我們希望盡快就到貴院你認為天時地利人和條件有了嘛有天使嘛有天使的條件嘛那我們希望"},{"start":723.01,"end":744.708,"text":"在不久的將來你可以給一個稍微思考給我們一個比較可以期待的數字比較可以期待的數字這就是我要這個呼籲我們的這個環境部就是說因為您這個訴求已經歷經了快一年了那我們都在等待讓我們期待政府不要開出來的支票就是跳票"},{"start":745.589,"end":758.192,"text":"特別是這個回收的這個基金已經有虧損的情形那如果再一天拖過一天可能財務黑洞就會越來越大那所以也希望經濟部環境部這邊積極一點消滅這些經濟上的一個赤字所以這邊有一些數據要請這個部長這邊來提供那當然剛署長嗎 請問是署長嗎"},{"start":768.715,"end":782.42,"text":"署長也有答應我們要給一些資料那除此之外可不可以把這些營業量短報嘴角跟裁罰的資料送過來還有就是我提到的就是每年補助多少錢經濟部補助多少錢給你們然後實際支出多少錢那再來就回應到部長你最後講的嘛"},{"start":787.822,"end":793.807,"text":"已經水到渠成了天時的條件已經出現了那現在就缺人和嘛人和就是你這邊加緊腳步一點不知道是三個月還是六個月會進入立法院的大門可以給我們一個答案嗎就盡快快要了請在書面報告裡頭再給我們一個比較詳細的數字好嗎一個任舉三到六個月或什麼不用不用就是委員很快就會看到了"},{"start":814.884,"end":818.852,"text":"OK OK 好 謝謝部長那我們就一起努力來為這個廢棄物的回收盡一份心力這樣子 謝謝謝謝 謝謝委員好 謝謝邱惠璐委員發言"}]}},{"id":"168220","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168220","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/70d8fc05dcd8abb0111463f4f60f9400a7afadf2dd1952ec212c5ce4660756d317444451dbb786d95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳亭妃","委員發言時間":"10:01:28 - 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我們請經濟部長陳委員早部長你知道現在台灣有兩個亂嗎一個是塑膠袋之亂一個是土方之亂"},{"start":28.775,"end":56.442,"text":"塑膠袋之亂我們上個禮拜在質詢公平會的時候公平會說他會配合你們他要怎麼配合你們公平會主要是看有沒有聯合行為是啊他說要有合意那什麼叫合意奇怪了現在有人那麼笨嗎明明知道說你公平會要處罰我就是以合意那我自己還跳入那個漩渦"},{"start":58.442,"end":84.225,"text":"他有那麼笨嗎他居然說他是配合你們好我就問他們那請問壟斷的部分呢還有我只要晚兩三天出貨供跟需產生了不同的平衡那是不是價格就跳上去了這個會有壟斷嗎也不會啊因為那是我出貨的問題"},{"start":85.916,"end":113.409,"text":"我說公平問你怎麼會活在自己的世界裡啊那你把責任都推給經濟部然後我問 部長你們有去查嗎我們有去了解 對了解的結果呢就是商圈的昨天我有跟那個商圈的全台灣的商圈代表有做了座談會是啊那大概來了30個商圈那比較有明顯的這個他說他比較買不到是有一個商圈就是嘉義地區"},{"start":114.289,"end":135.902,"text":"那他主要我們會後了解是說因為他習慣的通路商可能比較缺啦那我們現在是透過小北跟剩餘五金嘛那我們現在就幫他處理就是說他如果要用原來的通路商我們就來協助他的通路商如果他可以用新的通路商我們也來協助他好那經過你們這樣座談完之後你覺得會解決了嗎"},{"start":140.324,"end":163.965,"text":"對 我們是盡快的可以紓款源頭也有 我們增加那個料源料源的話從這個原來生產塑膠的乙烯2.2萬噸我們現在增加到2.75萬噸那希望這次增加大概百分之二十幾希望這個製造商你不用擔心你會有料源所以你認為你這樣子一輪溝通協調之後我們的塑膠袋之亂會解決嗎"},{"start":168.813,"end":196.454,"text":"至少商圈的这些代表或理事长们除了商圈还有小摊贩呢还有菜市场呢市场的部分我会下一轮就是明后天我会再做一个轮所以这些一层一层的这些每天都急需要用到塑胶袋的你们动作好像有点慢每天都在努力每天都在努力速度要加快否则"},{"start":197.755,"end":216.332,"text":"這些問題一個塑膠袋雖然過去我們都不會把它當一回事可是這一次中東的戰爭之後它變成一個大事耶超級大事耶大家曾幾何時會認為說我居然會買不到塑膠袋"},{"start":217.85,"end":236.899,"text":"所以大部分的商圈他们还是说可以啦所以部长我才会说啊但是价格是有稍微涨是啊那价格为什么会涨就是供需的问题嘛所以他只要晚个一两天出货基本上价格就跳上去了啊"},{"start":237.833,"end":253.76,"text":"何必像公平會說還要合議有這麼笨嗎所以部長你要跟公平會說既然要配合要給人民安心給消費者安心積極作為要到位"},{"start":254.969,"end":271.611,"text":"現在是法務部聯合我們經濟部包括公平會我們有一個聯合稽查的小組那現在也全台灣也少過一輪也少過一輪了好你認為這個塑膠袋之亂多久你有信心可以讓它比較穩定"},{"start":273.707,"end":298.615,"text":"我們只能盡快跟盡力啊盡快嘛 盡快到底是多久嘛 所謂盡快半個月還是一個月你所謂的盡快應該不用嘛 所以盡一個禮拜有可能就解決了 對不對希望嘛 好 拜託你這一拖 人民對政府的欣欣指數又下降了"},{"start":299.676,"end":317.738,"text":"所以越快處理越好另外一個部分就是我們的土方之亂部長你知道嗎現在台北很多工程都停擺因為了解原因之後就是土方沒的地方去啊"},{"start":319.187,"end":338.307,"text":"所以整個都停擺啊這怎麼辦還有自來水公司我不知道現在到底你們都解決了嗎來那個台電董事長解決了嗎你們公共工程最近大家都在追案子追案子之後問起來就是因為土方沒辦法堆置所以都停擺"},{"start":339.056,"end":361.162,"text":"那個跟委員報告就是說您這個表列出來我們大概全國各個縣市現在都在陸續在解決那當然我們土方的處理跟運送費用增加的非常的多這是我們現在面對到的難題那為什麼就是土方去劃的地點不管他是去掩埋堆置等等都需要"},{"start":362.403,"end":388.17,"text":"不同的縣市有不同的條件對 沒有啊 就是不夠量嘛你要去堆置的沒有地方去嘛好 那這個誰要去解決縣市政府嗎還是我們中央台電要去協調我們中央相關的國土署或是國福相關單位這該怎麼辦因為不是你們問題連自來水其實也發生問題了"},{"start":389.858,"end":400.148,"text":"這怎麼辦跟委員報告就是說我知道的狀況是行政院跟主辦的國土機關都有在處理這個問題很多地方也都陸續找到區劃的問題現在是問題越來越嚴重啊"},{"start":405.831,"end":431.937,"text":"沒有解決 沒有趨緩現在是越來越嚴重有那多久 多久來 董事長你認為這個要多久每個縣市都發生這個問題那個委員 我說明一下其實有很多縣市都陸續在解決當中那我這樣講就是好 那你 我不問其他縣市我們台南什麼時候要解決台南所有的工程 台電工程幾乎"},{"start":432.837,"end":446.986,"text":"很多的案子都在家因為當然是颱風的關係其實我們地下化的工程量最大所以我們也確實在台南真的是遇到最大的就是我們希望能夠有一定程度的解決好那怎麼辦嘛如果戰志或什麼其他中線誰要做平台去解決啦"},{"start":453.149,"end":478.947,"text":"誰在這個時候應該跳出來去解決這個問題因為你們會有排擠現在台南除了有我們的營造建設還有我們的公共工程還有我們的台電自來水你讓我光一念工程有多少在進行土方的堆置要有多少場"},{"start":480.461,"end":508.359,"text":"所以這該怎麼辦誰要出面去做這些協調因為裡面有一個平台那相關的單位也有一個平台好 那我拜託會後把這個平台跟你的進度跟我說一下看我們現在到底要怎麼處理這個土方之亂好不好另外一個很重要的拜託主席因為這是昨天發生的問題我讓大家先看一段影片來"},{"start":525.074,"end":539.918,"text":"請問一下今天停電的情況是怎麼樣?突然停電所以導致現在都沒有辦法工作?所有的員工都下班了嗎?老闆叫你們都直接下班,大概停電多久?"},{"start":541.035,"end":565.441,"text":"到現在兩個小時多了啊所以都沒有辦法工作老闆叫你們直接就直接下班了又不知道什麼時候恢復啊好的好的那我來反映看看謝謝你不好意思啊這裡什麼時候停電的?12點通啊12點兩分而已啊所以說這樣子的話你是不是就沒有辦法工作?對啊因為沒有電啊電車去沒得穿啊那通票也不會發啊"},{"start":568.322,"end":570.143,"text":"我讓你看這兩段影片這是在昨天麻豆工業區無預警停電長達兩個半小時"},{"start":587.308,"end":613.698,"text":"然後呢你也知道在工業區基本上只要一停電他所影響的這些生產還有他的機器可能影響的損失非常的慘重那董事長有沒有去了解為什麼會停電兩個多小時剛剛委員的簡報裡面有寫到確實是變電站出口的纜線劣化對好那這怎麼辦"},{"start":614.565,"end":628.815,"text":"我們會我們其實這幾年來都在加強做我們藍線劣化的一些查查那當然這個數量已經開始降低了就停電的數量降低那我們其實速度速度那個委員跟委員報告就是說我們有1500萬個用戶"},{"start":631.121,"end":655.503,"text":"好我想說這個事情不是我是說在工業沒有沒有不是董事長你誤解我的意思我想我們逐步都有在做一些調整跟修復或是說我們有在加強韌性可是我現在講的是我們有沒有針對所有的工業區去做盤整這個是發生在工業區所以我是要拜託董事長"},{"start":656.704,"end":661.208,"text":"我們希望的是你應該要把所有工業區的電纜韌性然後應該儘速做檢查"},{"start":666.029,"end":681.153,"text":"這個部分我們會加強來做這個倒是沒有問題的但是我們有很多如果你的用電是比較說是特高壓用電等等的我們基本上都有雙潰線那這一個部分我們再去了解工業區內部停多久那其實整個來看兩個小時我們是12點多停然後2點回復"},{"start":687.774,"end":714.629,"text":"所以這個部分停的時間非常長如果說讓你說有雙軌那應該不會停那麼久所以這個部分所以所以董事長這個部分我希望我們能夠針對麻豆工業區的整個電纜韌性趕快去做加強然後應該延伸檢視各個工業區它的電纜韌性因為工業區比較特別我發現一件好再拜託董事長好謝謝好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168229","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168229","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/70d8fc05dcd8abb06cbb3f48d19afaf901ae777e4c72867e212c5ce4660756d3913bf80977d0b5285ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王育敏","委員發言時間":"10:10:39 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我們有請彭部長有請彭部長王委員好部長好 部長我請教你全球塑膠公約它大概預計要減少多少的塑膠污染要減少多少的產量你們現在掌握到的訊息當然是 我記得有一個數字是75%產量是75%"},{"start":28.61,"end":44.301,"text":"污染是80%對對對就是說有一個這個數字但是因為過去這一年一兩年喔他們談都沒有談出一個結果尤其是產油國啊各方面所以我們但是他各國的這個協定可能是在年底或是明年應該會就會有一個方式出來對"},{"start":45.202,"end":49.164,"text":"這個是他訂出來我覺得是一個蠻高標的那在這樣的情況底下我們要跟國際接軌那我去看一下現在整個環境部你訂出來的目標2018年當時的環保署是要全面禁塑的他2030年是全面禁塑他其實是在亞洲他其實是喊的最前面"},{"start":67.933,"end":79.179,"text":"但是現在看起來這個部長你修正了你在去年底其實已經把這個全面禁售其實已經取消了你現在的目標是2030你的目標只有減量5%2035減量10%那我要請教部長的是如果按照你這樣的一個目標本席認為是過低啦齁對照全球塑膠公約他即將要減少的這個量跟污染的話我們差很大的距離耶"},{"start":96.989,"end":99.151,"text":"這樣我們跟國際接軌不了你可能沒有辦法去參加國際會議了包委員你可能對這個數據有點誤解這個是5跟10是10化的塑膠的量"},{"start":109.266,"end":137.476,"text":"那你 塑膠公約對 你可以換算成它的產量跟汙染你的比例是多少這個要去對照一下因為一個他們的強調是塑膠袋你們沒有對照嗎 你們要對照啊你們應該早就掌握這個全球塑膠公約它要求這個標準嘛那你自己現在已經估這一個你如果說是原生塑膠的量你把它換算成就是它的那個產量你這樣的占比大概是占比多少包委員這沒辦法 譬如說現在我這個螢幕這個也用到塑膠啊那這個就不是塑膠袋啊"},{"start":137.776,"end":156.972,"text":"那不知道你兩邊怎麼核對不一樣因為那個塑膠工業他訂的是我舉例塑膠工業他連那個耳棒用塑膠他都禁止他有很多的品項那他用那個品項弄起來跟生活有關的他會去禁他我知道我現在要問你的問題就是那你自己訂了一個你是這個原生塑膠的這一個百分比"},{"start":157.512,"end":165.038,"text":"你將來怎麼去跟國際接軌就是說這個全球塑膠公約他要求的是產量跟污染他已經定在那邊了你必須轉換成那個數據啊要不然你將來去參加國際性會議的時候你的報告跟他的要求你總是要轉換成說在你們的標準底下台灣目前譬如說我的產量我已經確保我可以達到50%或60%我的污染我可以達到譬如說60%或70%嘛那這樣子"},{"start":186.914,"end":203.312,"text":"你去出席國際會議跟國際評比起來人家才知道說你台灣我們的現況在哪裡嗎不是嗎報告委員我們說的是剛剛你那個5或10是一次性的石化的塑膠的用料那是整個例如說所有的東西都有我們是2030到5然後2035到10%那這個是完全是對盟歐盟"},{"start":207.877,"end":234.383,"text":"那這個塑膠工業它是針對某些產品例如說我剛才說的耳棒然後很多小小的東西我們看了也嚇一跳然後甚至的塑膠袋如何去用量都有定業限制這兩個是不一樣因為每個國家像我們台灣會產製出這樣的螢幕塑膠袋塑料的用量就特別多我們就希望這個比例一次性的能夠降低然後多用一個再生的回收的這個料來做處理所以這兩個意涵我們都會去遵守但是不大一樣"},{"start":235.154,"end":248.183,"text":"是啊 是不太一樣但是你總是要讓人家理解台灣我們現在做到什麼程度嘛 對不對所以你換算起來你要做的就是譬如說產量的部分你希望可以減量到多少因為像這個"},{"start":250.525,"end":269.678,"text":"環保團體他們都會有一些指標包括紙容器、塑膠袋或塑膠殘具這個是他們觀察我們有沒有減量的一些指標會有一些項目的那我覺得你現在你應該自己也要去把這一些設定出來比如說這一次我們看到因為這個美伊戰爭經濟部他就要增加5000噸的這一個最上游的這個原料"},{"start":275.862,"end":284.335,"text":"那我要問的是這五千噸它變成產品之後有沒有估算過它最終最想增加的是什麼就是塑膠袋對不對"},{"start":285.697,"end":312.798,"text":"就是塑膠袋那這一個我看到媒體問你你說這個跟你的減塑政策沒有背離我覺得在回答這件事你可能要先去問說因為這一波有一部分是恐慌性的囤積那你有沒有經濟部經紀有沒有代表有沒有估算過就是恐慌性的囤積加上現在的增產跟原來沒有美以易戰爭之前你的總塑膠袋的產量是增加還是減少有估算過嗎"},{"start":316.658,"end":338.058,"text":"跟委員報告因為之前的話有些是從進口過來那因為現在國際局勢進口那一塊現在很多都已經不進口了所以就會變成是台灣的內部自己要去生產所以你們有沒有評估過那個總量跟這個戰爭之前到底是增加還是減少還是一樣目前我沒有這個數據"},{"start":338.979,"end":360.989,"text":"你們沒有掌握嘛對不對那這個就是問題啊所以這個當部長你要說這個並行不備的時候恐怕不是喔如果他的總產量是增加的因為有些人是過度囤積了導致市場的缺貨在這樣的情況底下他就不是並行不備而是他的源頭坦白講是增量了所以這個部分我們來看一下我還有另外一個數據喔就是國內生產"},{"start":363.24,"end":392.433,"text":"跟那個進口量的這個比較就是我們的進口額這個經濟部要回答一下我們113年喔是4407百萬美元然後114年呢增加了11%那我要問這個經濟部的就進口的這一些塑膠到底是哪些用品就是在哪些類別可回收的佔比例多少然後會變成垃圾的佔比例多少這個你們有沒有掌握"},{"start":394.533,"end":419.489,"text":"這委員這個是不是容我那個會後再提供說明好所以也沒有掌握好那所以你可以看到我們從源頭經濟部是主管這一些我們的塑化原料還有生產製造的源頭端我們進口多少然後是什麼樣類的產品如果經濟部沒有掌握那環境部有掌握嗎你知道哪一種類別就是增加的很多嗎這增加11%增加哪些類別"},{"start":420.269,"end":446.768,"text":"包委我們對於這個因為這是上游是經濟部的工作我們是對於回收體系的衰退我們有注意到因為目前全世界因為這個永續的這個議題有受到一些波動簡單沒有影響但是這個回收的體系因為很多的例如說國際知名的大牌他不用添加的再生的力量的比例往後延了包含可溫可樂等等所以的確回收體系有受到很大的壓力"},{"start":447.068,"end":453.326,"text":"然後包含他的這個費用他可以回收的錢錢就沒有誘因了嘛所以就造成整個衰退這個是我們有注意到這個問題"},{"start":455.051,"end":459.514,"text":"對 所以我要講的是我們現在在整體的這個塑膠一個就是說我們跟全球國際的接軌我們這個部分我們要急起直追就是如果2040這個國際公約是要這樣定的話市長那個是非常高標的我覺得我們現在台灣距離這一步其實還非常的遙遠所以環境部責任重大另外一個就是說我們對於整體塑膠的源頭的管控"},{"start":479.304,"end":494.551,"text":"然後從自己生產也好或者是進口也好我們從源頭其實我們都沒有做一個很好的這個監督跟控制你根本不知道進口多少流向哪裡然後回收多少所以你總體的控制就是控制不了我覺得這一塊我要求這個環境部跟經濟部你們必須做出一個檢討報告"},{"start":500.273,"end":523.348,"text":"就是針對源頭我們到底總量減少多少然後我們到下游之後可以回收多少還有這個環境部還有努力的空間剛剛你一再回答委員說我們有我們的國企所以這個小吃店啊 攤商啊這個佔了六成的塑膠袋好像就一籌莫展了 沒有辦法但是有時候危機是轉機啊這一次剛好因為就是缺貨 有一些缺量"},{"start":523.928,"end":537.875,"text":"那所以你事實上在市場方面包括經濟部你可以請業者他就是做減量提供嘛減量提供這個是可以做到的啊鼓勵大家多用環保袋特別是那種塑膠袋塑膠袋沒有一定必要就那種手提的就市場最多這種然後就拿走這種拎著我們一方面鼓勵這個環保袋但是如果是那種類型的缺我個人覺得反而是你們去宣導那就是多用環保袋"},{"start":551.981,"end":576.389,"text":"減量那一塊的那一個一次性手提的那種塑膠袋嘛這個其實反而是一個推動的契機啊而不是說缺不管市場缺哪一樣我一律都提供這是不對的依裁一定優先提供包裝的你說醬油礦泉水那種一定要的包裁那也沒有辦法但是我個人認為市場上那一種塑膠袋真的本來就是我們減塑的目標不是嗎"},{"start":577.229,"end":605.634,"text":"這個應該好好去推動因為他們製作乙烯就我的了解是給這個食藥署醫材的部分這救命然後我們生活上譬如說吃東西吃個包子現在國內習慣還是必須用這個不用自己帶容器自己還是要一個塑膠袋所以他們是不要讓國人生活太大的衝擊那對我們來說就是全面的減我舉例像立法院委員你可以來推動立法院我們待會發便當多少個塑膠袋我們也可以來推我們環境部自己就來推"},{"start":606.294,"end":622.18,"text":"但是我們需要推的更多所以我們現在在社會整個風氣的轉變裡面我們的確訂了一些計畫來推動也希望委員可以支持我覺得我們檢縮的力道真的是差國際還有一段距離請大家加油然後要做一個檢討報告接下來我要問一個是垃圾的問題部長你曾經承諾兩年之內要移除全台48座垃圾山現在還有33座也就是你大概只有做了兩成五"},{"start":633.564,"end":660.178,"text":"那最近這個南投的議題看起來這個環團的抗爭還有地方政府的問題這個問題我沒有看到環境部的角色事實上當時看這個彭部長你也去過南投你當時講了一句話你說不能只要台積電不要焚化廠而且有一些焚化廠它是現代新型的再生能源焚化效率很好很乾淨這個都是你講的而且不會製造污染"},{"start":660.658,"end":672.146,"text":"但是現在看到南投的這個要設焚化廠 當時你也去看 你看起來像是支持的那現在你又說支持總統的雞尾酒療法但雞尾酒療法到底是什麼呢 它可以解決問題嗎到目前為止 環境部的態度是如何要支持地方政府去蓋嗎 還是就是要走雞尾酒療法 總統講的那如果是走總統講的雞尾酒療法 到底是什麼"},{"start":686.411,"end":711.232,"text":"到底是什麼第一個是說南投是全台灣沒有垃圾處理設施的地方所以這個是我們去看的草屯他們堆置如山那你剛才講到了33座垃圾山其實目前我們有信心但是南投現在大概有9萬多噸裸露在那個地方我們希望他們可以解決我們會督促他們要補助怎麼解決基本上目前本來不是你去看了也覺得可以有焚化廠嗎"},{"start":712.219,"end":735.055,"text":"我沒有說可不可以因為目前這個焚化廠要不要蓋是屬於地方自己環評自己的事務但是他因為用到一間農地所以他到時候送到內政部區委會的時候會到我們中央部會表達意見那我們當然態度會是嚴格審查會不會空污的影響等等這是我們的態度這是我們必要的一個程序農業部也會表達這個意見所以目前其實這個態度是地方的層次還沒有到我們這邊來"},{"start":736.616,"end":754.39,"text":"那所以中央你對於因為這個是在解決垃圾問題嘛中央的態度到底是支持他可以設立但是嚴格把關然後禁止污染的方向還是其實你們現在已經跟總統一樣就是反對就是覺得根本不需要有機會有療法就萬事OK了"},{"start":756.131,"end":771.743,"text":"肌胃酒療法是一個概念要很多元的處理例如說南投的源頭減量做的還可以再加強我也贊同這樣的一個做法其實我們也早就有提醒說他們應該源頭減量做好分類破帶檢查該做的都要做那目前來說的話他們的確還有一些進步的空間"},{"start":773.05,"end":800.792,"text":"雞尾酒療法不是其中也包含就是這個焚化廠嗎?甚至燃點中心嗎?也是其中的一環不是嗎?可能因為我不知道他們因為每個人講的是不大一樣你不知道總統講的是什麼?這是總統講的我看到那個候選人講的其實他有一些例如說他希望用到例如說SRF啊分類啊減碳啊這個等於是捲頭減量那個都是對的做法我相信南投縣政府也有在做所以你也不知道總統的雞尾酒療法是怎麼回事"},{"start":801.332,"end":826.58,"text":"基本上那個是候選人在推動在提出來的所以總統是候選人講出來的那是一個概念因為垃圾絕對不是只有單一個方法可以解決的部長這個我希望你可以堅持一些專業的原則你當時如果認為有一些再生能源中心它其實是更進步的也可以乾淨也不會製造污染我覺得作為中央主管機關你們有責任就提供給地方政府要蓋可以但是要蓋一個不會污染的"},{"start":828.26,"end":848.724,"text":"是符合世界標準的那這樣子可能也是一種解方那要不然就是你們必須輔導他進行所謂的雞尾酒療法一個候選人他不能去主導政策你是環境部才應該主導政策啊我希望這件事情不要成為政治攻防而是該怎麼做就怎麼做而環境部我相信你們的專業用你們的專業去輔導地方政府有效的解決垃圾問題可以嗎"},{"start":854.506,"end":870.059,"text":"對 這個垃圾處理本來就是地方事務當然我們在某些立場會表態但是到目前為止因為還沒有送到我們這邊我們不方便馬上表達任何意見好 我希望你們就秉持專業處理是 我們一直都是這樣好 謝謝好 謝謝王玉明委員發言接下來請廖偉祥"}]}},{"id":"168227","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168227","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/70d8fc05dcd8abb00e618a2e4dd1462fa7afadf2dd1952ec212c5ce4660756d3165d56d12b5959f05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭正鈐","委員發言時間":"10:13:27 - 10:23:09","影片長度":"00:09:42","會議時間":"2026-04-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長率台灣電力股份有限公司董事長及台灣中油股份有限公司董事長、行政院經貿談判辦公室首長、財政部首長、行政院主計總處首長就「台美關稅協定（ART）中關於『擴大採購及購買』（原油、天然氣、發電設備等）項目之評估、規劃及涉及之問題與工作，並就台灣中油股份有限公司之增資案」進行報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-04-08","start_time":"2026-04-08T10:13:27+08:00","end_time":"2026-04-08T10:23:09+08:00","duration":582,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":5,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-5-19-7"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":0.6722187500000001,"end":3.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.539718750000002,"end":15.184718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15.387218750000002,"end":15.775343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.505343750000002,"end":18.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.88034375,"end":24.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.12846875,"end":25.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.95096875,"end":28.887218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.089718750000003,"end":53.204093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.25471875,"end":62.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":56.73096875,"end":56.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.89034375000001,"end":70.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.48409375,"end":73.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.25034375,"end":83.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.41034375000001,"end":99.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.61284375000001,"end":84.23721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.50721875,"end":84.64221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.78534375000001,"end":87.42659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.11846875,"end":88.21971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.01534375,"end":111.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.36784375,"end":138.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":138.81096875,"end":141.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":141.19034375,"end":141.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":141.20721875,"end":141.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":141.25784375,"end":141.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":141.39284375,"end":141.42659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":141.42659375,"end":141.46034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":141.69659375,"end":142.79346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.09721875,"end":145.30784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":145.40909375,"end":145.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":145.96596875,"end":148.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":148.80096875,"end":149.13846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":149.10471875000002,"end":153.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":150.57284375,"end":150.82596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":154.04909375,"end":154.62284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":154.45409375,"end":160.02284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.02284375000002,"end":163.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":163.71846875,"end":166.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.40596875,"end":165.89534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.78971875000002,"end":167.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":167.05971875,"end":167.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":167.07659375,"end":167.09346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":167.11034375,"end":170.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.47721875000002,"end":168.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.05909375000002,"end":173.47221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.12659375,"end":171.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":171.17721875,"end":171.48096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.48096875000002,"end":171.49784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.47221875000002,"end":190.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.70159375,"end":192.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.28784375,"end":209.29784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.46659375000002,"end":210.63096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.78284375,"end":224.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":226.20659375000002,"end":233.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.63659375,"end":229.71659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.72034375,"end":232.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.78784375,"end":232.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":233.93534375000002,"end":235.97721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.84659375,"end":235.21784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":235.21784375000001,"end":235.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.36971875,"end":235.89284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":236.14596875,"end":239.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":239.31846875000002,"end":239.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":239.84159375000002,"end":241.91721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.91721875000002,"end":24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六六億然後整個決算數是三百零"},{"start":113.682,"end":139.497,"text":"8億齁整個相差112.3億其實非常的高齁將近快要六成的一個差額啦齁那這樣子這麼多的一個業外的一個費用的時候齁那我們看到它整個業外的結構就是資產減損這邊是最主要的一個部分我想請教一下部長齁或者是董事長這個資產減損的部分齁主要是用在什麼地方為什麼會有這麼高的一個金額就是以114年來講齁"},{"start":141.738,"end":156.534,"text":"那麼這個油價它是從高點往低點落那我們在國外有一些礦區它有一些油氣權益到年底的時候要重新去評估它的資產所以相對來講就做了一個資產的減損"},{"start":158.015,"end":170.522,"text":"所以這個減損部分是因為在對岸的一個投資當中的這個整個結算之後的一個結果對不對不是就是地底下的油跟氣那個還沒有拿出來這個部分的資產他有減損大概減損100多億這樣子"},{"start":173.764,"end":189.383,"text":"有100多億是在這個部分嗎好理解那我想說接下來我想問一下有關於阿拉斯加的部分因為中油這邊要怎麼樣子讓它的體質更健全我想說很重要那董事長剛剛有提到說我們大概119年希望說能夠"},{"start":190.885,"end":208.161,"text":"整個投資的部分能夠占到10%啦那目前都沒有嘛那我就特別關注到阿拉斯加這個部分因為阿拉斯加這個部分董事長剛剛是特別提到說我們阿拉斯加這邊的時候要不要投資投資多少錢都還沒有具體的一個東西出來對不對"},{"start":209.542,"end":220.658,"text":"OK那可是呢我看到了我們就是基本上就中油對於阿拉斯加這個部分已經有一個預估未來會從這邊採購每年600萬噸那這個數字是怎麼來的"},{"start":226.4,"end":241.615,"text":"首先報告委員首先我說明一下剛剛那個邱委員所質詢有關10%的部分那個是指礦產的理解阿拉斯加投資站跟這個礦產沒有關係那阿拉斯加投資的時候他是"},{"start":242.356,"end":259.945,"text":"那個油管的部分投資嘛 理解我們現在我想問的狀態為什麼會問到這個部分是因為中東這個事情讓我們看到我們的天然氣油源其實需要更多元化就像我們能源政策也必須要多元化是一樣的道理"},{"start":261.326,"end":279.54,"text":"部長之前有特別提到說我們目前對美國採購的天然氣大概是14%到15%那我們到2032年的時候希望能夠提高到27%這天然氣的部分油的部分的時候我們有沒有怎麼樣子去做一個多元化的一個配比重新配比的一個政策"},{"start":282.986,"end":304.373,"text":"目前我們跟美國採購的LNG是10%我們預估到因為中東那個情勢我想大家也了解他確實產生了一些影響所以對於LNG進口整體佈局中東公司必須要重新慎重思考"},{"start":305.333,"end":312.998,"text":"那麼當中對美國的採購LNG變成是我們主要的一個考慮對象我們預估到2029年我們的佔比我們希望能達到大概25%的一個從美國採購的LNG到25%"},{"start":322.677,"end":337.421,"text":"OK那對於阿拉斯加這個案子的時候目前進度大概到哪裡然後台灣是確定會去投阿拉斯加的油管採購他們的油源這個政策是確定的是不是"},{"start":340.563,"end":354.936,"text":"阿拉斯加這個案子就是從去年的3月20號的所謂MOU可以看出來主要是兩項一個是採購LNG一個是投資採購LNG的部分是列在ART裡面"},{"start":358.22,"end":387.254,"text":"那目前的進度呢目前進度就是說美方他的安排的進度呢是希望在今年年底以前呢能夠把這個採購簽約呢雙方都能夠談到談定希望在年底前把它談定所以今年年底的時候年底前的時候阿拉斯加這個案會確定然後台灣確實也有這個意願那再談這些細節了對不對我講的是採購案是那麼現在談一些主要的主要的條款"},{"start":387.674,"end":412.332,"text":"OK 理解那我最後這邊我想特別針對CPTPP這部分因為之前經貿談判辦公室閻惠欣副總談判代表的時候這事情我們大家都非常的難過不過因為他特別提到了針對CPTPP這邊的時候政府對這部分的一個消極跟敷衍然後卓院長也確實也"},{"start":414.193,"end":427.282,"text":"不諱言的表示過去一年我們對這部分確實沒有特別的一個著力所以卓院長也特別在3月27號的時候表示接下來定定CPTPP的一個目標時程我想請問一下執密跟部長我們目前這個針對CPTPP的一個目標時程定下來了沒有"},{"start":437.776,"end":448.736,"text":"像委員報告我們都配合院里長官的要求那我們會做全面的盤點然後具體的目標時程定下來了沒有有沒有進一步的內容"},{"start":450.731,"end":467.743,"text":"因為相關的工作還在進行當中請大概什麼時候可以給本席一個很具體的內容到本席辦公室來做一個說明 好不好是那另外一個部分 因為我們看到了就是台灣在整個"},{"start":468.624,"end":483.827,"text":"ECA跟FTA的一個入口網站當中我們看到台灣的一個貿易夥伴確實是少的卻不太夠那麼我覺得目前有幾個不同的做法我們對於有一些mini deals的部分一些比較零散式的一個協議"},{"start":484.708,"end":513.327,"text":"可以來彌補這樣的一個不足因為要進入到一個國際組織相關的部分我知道台灣有它現階段的一些難處那我們要怎麼樣透過一些mini deals的部分的時候來解決這個問題包括我們之前跟台美21世貿易倡議大概都是屬於類似的一個狀態還有包括台日的一個數位貿易協議還有台加投資促進及保障協議都算是這樣的一個mini deals的部分我想請教一下目前台灣"},{"start":515.088,"end":542.22,"text":"還有哪些正在進行當中要鎖定哪些國家哪些的議題是我們現在正在積極處理的mini deals的部分嗎可以請執秘這邊特別做個說明是 向委員報告就是說這些相關的經貿協議行政經貿談判辦公室都是跟相關部會一起在推動那至於說目前在進行談判中的deal"},{"start":543.1,"end":562.605,"text":"因為我們國際情勢的關係那我們的對手國通常都不希望我們在簽署之前理解 我在想說為什麼我特別提到這部分就是說我們要真正加入一些相關的經貿基金組織不容易所以我們希望針對這個部分能夠對於我們的產業有一些很具體的幫忙"},{"start":564.085,"end":580.864,"text":"那我們也像經濟部這邊的時候跟金華談判公司這邊能夠盡量的更合作的時候能夠讓產業從這個部分來解決現在的問題因為目前整個我們東亞的相關的國家在這個部分他們都很積極都跑得很快那我不希望台灣在這邊遠離踏步好不好好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168226","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168226","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/70d8fc05dcd8abb00991be9e8f6c108d1607b63c45e41aa0212c5ce4660756d315f377d25edfc7d75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳永康","委員發言時間":"10:12:18 - 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陳委員長主席 局長大家早安剛才聽取了局裡面的報告我個人深感有關國家安全以及我們國家的核心利益它是一體兩面它是沒有妥協的空間那麼今天在場的所有涉及國安的"},{"start":28.53,"end":50.82,"text":"部會首長也都在場那麼除了國防部部以外幾乎都在場了所以我今天會用幾個方法論提供一些建議做參考那大家現在實際上我們的人才濟濟但是在橫向整合的過程中間我們還有一些努力的空間提出一些頭像尤其是剛剛局長也提到了"},{"start":51.7,"end":67.539,"text":"国外的媒体也有时候是为了他的商业利益做出一些不正确的资讯的这个残破那也许会影响到我们国内明星士气的判断那我下面这张图这个刚才您提到了就是2015年"},{"start":69.882,"end":82.493,"text":"2025年的美國國家安全戰略它是11月出來的那麼接著就是國防戰略那下一個版本就等著軍事戰略那我們關注要看的是什麼就是印太戰略那"},{"start":83.43,"end":105.657,"text":"去年我曾经代表我们院里面接待了15个美国国会助理团,都是法案助理,资深的助理团,也跟他们做了很多意见交换,他们提出来了,就是说因为他们有一个完整的国家安全战略,所以你看到这上面四个面向,四个P,就是在军事的能力上面,他们是预做准备,"},{"start":106.477,"end":134.776,"text":"在这个外交事务上他是做预防措施那么在他的经济上面他是要追求经济另外就是对于他的高科技内部安全管制法律手他是要做一个保护所以四个批那实际上就是包括美国的国务院现在叫做战争部还有CIA还有他的国会他们都有一个专门的特别小组研究中国大陆所有的行政军事企图"},{"start":136.035,"end":156.429,"text":"他们因为是可以横向交流所以有很多资料的分享因为我们目前还没有一个我们国家版的国家安全战略就是官方版那两个面向第一个是对国际的国家来讲他看不到我们的官方版就是对我的核心利益的价值观在评估上面会跟现实面有点落差"},{"start":156.969,"end":181.258,"text":"第二个就是国内的人士看不到官方版的国家安全战略因为我们现在只有国防战略你看这个上次的印太战略他们因为把AI当作工具所以现在各部会用分享资料上速度非常快最下面一个就是他在那个上一个版本的印太战略讲就是说我们台湾保有做两岸交流的自我决定这是他讲的话"},{"start":182.418,"end":202.3,"text":"那下一个就看国家安全战略国防战略军事战略印太的下面的战略因为我们国家目前还没有没有国家安全战略那么QDR四年期国防总检讨美国在2017年就已经停止了现在是国防战略一样四年一本下面呢就是他的军事战略我们刚刚"},{"start":202.961,"end":231.988,"text":"发表了我们的国防报告书可是在去年十月国防报告书出来的时候还没有提到台湾之盾也就是说这个东西将来要做滚动的修正了要把这个理念倒进去那现在就是说我还是建议从国安的角色像我们政府希望在这个执政党的任内能够推出官方版的这个公开版当然有机密的内部这样子对其他的国际的学者智库有人来看的时候"},{"start":232.828,"end":234.654,"text":"就比較容易掌握我們的核心價值"},{"start":239.829,"end":262.516,"text":"剛剛您在提到就是最近這個美國日本以及菲律賓他們都在強化對這個東海南海整個的監控那我這個資料也是從不同的資訊裡面把剛才您那個簡報裡面部署的菲律賓還有日本部署的這些武器裝備Sensor涵蓋範圍也做了一個套疊以及日本"},{"start":263.436,"end":292.655,"text":"公開版的因為上次我在國防研究院也碰到日本來訪的學者他也說你們這個圖怎麼做我們說是利用GIS做個校正把圖套疊出去你就可以看到一個大範圍的圖共同圖像我們在作業過程中共同圖像需要有很多工程的背景不是光一般的行政幕僚會用的這個大家我們共同努力我也可以把資料跟局裡面做分享"},{"start":294.451,"end":319.966,"text":"这样才产生了一个叫JCAPJoin,Original Picture所以看到的范围不仅止于台湾防空识别区乃至于旁边到宫古海峡下面到这个巴丹岛到南海这个都可以显示那这个图各位看是一个大的防空识别区因为这个海委会主委在他的这个脸书上公布了说这个中共的这个船"},{"start":321.297,"end":332.862,"text":"我們把套疊上去這是今天早上的防空這是國防部公布的把這個圖套上去再比較周遭的環境這個時候看出來的東西就比較客觀一點"},{"start":334.756,"end":357.021,"text":"像這個圖就是大範圍涵蓋了朝鮮半島日本東海南海台海那這是最近中共部一個限航區對不對但是他並沒有真正向IKEA申請那我們國內對這個判斷上就心裡會產生壓力因為他的時間很長了1327到5月6號那我們怎麼做呢第一個你要把上海飛航航線"},{"start":358.837,"end":369.231,"text":"不是光台灣的飛航情報區不是防空識別區是飛航情報區裡面的航線套疊上去我這邊可以顯示給各位看這個大區顯示出來了"},{"start":371.506,"end":397.768,"text":"這是今天早上的民航機的線路背景再把上海的航線套疊起來你發現並沒有影響但是因為公開的資訊很有限在民間有時候會誤解可能會遭到心理上的誤判這個時候如果有人帶風向就變成你內心不安或是做出一些不是智當的反應這裡面都套成四層圖到五層圖了"},{"start":399.642,"end":423.771,"text":"用這種方法論這是台灣的這個國際航線所以我們要顯示說要把上海飛航情報局的航線也把它抓出來那去對應的軌跡圖就可以做出結果那剛才您的報告裡面提到中共對海欄的狀況像在海峽中間有很多的破壞那我們就把海欄的圖經過校正全部顯示出來那麼再去跟"},{"start":424.591,"end":435.559,"text":"不同的海揽跟不同的公司有中華電信有遠傳各自簽約的廠商了解到這個如果有意外的時候修復它要多少時間那這做一個參考"},{"start":439.008,"end":456.221,"text":"这里面比较一个新的问题就是您刚刚里面提到就是现在实际上在国际情势里面看的就是这个我讲心理战媒体战法律战它纠结在一起现在是用AI对抗AI那在这个科技进步下法条的规则要更新"},{"start":457.122,"end":479.853,"text":"要跟得上AI那治理競賽那這裡面就是法律戰的作為心理戰的作為媒體戰作為我們中間會發現產生很多的假信息還有就是所謂的deep fake那最後是什麼希望導致你對一個事情的看法誤判下了一個錯誤的決心做了一個錯誤的決定"},{"start":481.494,"end":504.436,"text":"然後全民買單付出一個很錯誤的代價這個是我們要預防的尤其是中共的這個心理戰上面這過程中間所以它是三個面向那現在AI的技術非常進步那這個東西要大家滾動修正那將來我們還有機會再互動那這只是顯示一個所有跟AI相關的議題最後我們要因為這個月份國防部也要做這個漢光演習"},{"start":505.737,"end":528.63,"text":"那这里面实际上把AI导入的技术从它的节奏性你的基础防卫流程你涵盖的范围不同的层次以及能源现在讲穿了能源就是国安运善能力也是国安所以我们建议就是未来不管是执政在野我们要团结一心国家安全是不可以妥协请这个局长您做个回应"},{"start":529.19,"end":548.756,"text":"好 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大概90%是"},{"start":31.67,"end":59.321,"text":"那它的使用滲透率就真正有在使用通訊軟體的大概有93%是就15歲到65歲是這個市佔率九成是就是大概壟斷了是那第二個使用滲透率93那幾乎是全民在使用是九成三每個人都在用那裡是"},{"start":60.785,"end":85.558,"text":"所以在台灣我可以說在通訊軟體LINE是絕對的主導的一個平台沒有第二第二離他非常遠所以台灣人很奇怪全民都愛用LINELINE如果出現安全的危機這個影響非常大這次大概有多少人受害"},{"start":86.618,"end":114.871,"text":"部長你有沒有掌握目前還有為什麼就是某一家電信公司的用者是好像是台哥大是他用者幾乎都是他的台哥大使用者被駭客盜取是為什麼目前台哥大他接貨的那個客宿只有16件但是據我們了解這個數目量受害的民眾遠超過16個人那很多人可能是發生這個問題以後他沒有去進行客宿那"},{"start":116.652,"end":144.505,"text":"這個事情就是基本上是兩個就是我們先講說那個台灣大哥大事實上發生這個問題的帳號大部分是來自於那個台灣之星的帳號因為之前台灣大哥大病了台灣之星然後台灣之星那些帳號原來他的設定他的語音信箱的密碼就是有一個固定的就是0000或1234所以駭客知道這個事情以後他們就是利用這個漏洞去表示這個就是有治安漏洞了是對不對"},{"start":145.98,"end":168.28,"text":"NINE如果出事情以它在台灣的壟斷地位那就影響到很多人所以我也想要跟部長提一件事如果客戶使用NINE受害了NINE能夠做哪些事情"},{"start":169.352,"end":181.286,"text":"或者說政府對於使用者的保護OK你知不知道其實使用者跟line他是有一個定型化契約是蘇團署有沒有來林署長來這個這個就是"},{"start":188.686,"end":213.81,"text":"我們消費者這應該是書端書寫的啦說不寫的電信化契約這個電信化契約裡面他就寫著任何這個是適用於任何的通訊平台不是只有那裡啦如果你招冒用就你的帳號被冒用了那麼這個平台應該要回復到該帳號的使用來保護使用者嘛第二個"},{"start":218.939,"end":248.282,"text":"如果你經營者的系統被突破不法入侵或破壞那麼你要採取合理的措施趕快給他回覆並且對於消費者所受的損害要負培養責任那這個定型化契約啊有啦這政府定的喔那根本啊沒有在執行也沒有辦法做到保護消費者就是使用者的權利啦"},{"start":249.448,"end":277.594,"text":"你如果被盜用了那麼你的帳號是沒有辦法完全回覆如果你沒有綁google沒有綁什麼line會叫你重新申請一個帳號這第一個啦第二個你的帳號被冒用以後那麼line它只能回覆你部分的功能就你有花錢買了一些東西啦"},{"start":278.947,"end":306.426,"text":"那其他的你的好友不見了你參加的群組都不見了你的好友你還要一個一個去加回來那你之前在跟好友之間的彼此之間往來的資訊還有你加入的群組全部都不見了這完全沒有達到我們速發部的跟業者以及消費者之間你所訂出來的這個定型化契約"},{"start":307.645,"end":336.257,"text":"是不是這樣子那署長你的意見是 跟委員回報NINE的部分在這件事情的處理他就是沉入委員剛剛講的不過他現在正在調查受損的使用者有多少所以我們還沒有跟他再洽談進一步的這個這個定期化契約的法律的問題你沒有回答我的問題啦OK 我來申請問NINE不是現在才發生使用者被冒用帳號被盜用從以前到現在"},{"start":337.15,"end":344.862,"text":"只要你的那出問題那公司都沒有辦法回覆你了是那他也不會賠償你了"},{"start":345.666,"end":373.184,"text":"那你的資料所有的東西通通不見了跟委員說明一下我們如果說以最近發生的這件事情來講的話這個事實上是兩家公司兩個不是很大的資安漏洞但是這兩個資安漏洞結合起來就變成一個大的資安漏洞那這個責任歸屬到底是在台灣大哥大還是在line上面我想這個可能就是說到時候會必須是我是消費者我是使用者你們之間的責任那關我什麼事情"},{"start":374.535,"end":387.227,"text":"你要回復我的權益啊按照這個契約寫的你的帳號要還我啊那我之前在這個通訊平台裡面的內容資料你要還我啊你要復原啊"},{"start":389.113,"end":407.293,"text":"否則你就不要訂這樣的一個契約嘛你訂這個契約喔這個是我們政府書發部書發部寫的定型化契約你現在寫了沒有辦法保護消費者現在就是說對於系統遭不法入侵或破壞齁那這個事情其實在解釋上面就是說對賴來講的話那是因為從你以前"},{"start":410.196,"end":421.472,"text":"你現在跟我講是最近發生的事我跟你說從以前到現在 現在都不是做這種事任何通訊軟體都沒有依照我們電信化契約去做回覆帳號還有他的內容從來沒有因為我們在那個"},{"start":426.96,"end":446.885,"text":"所以他有做一個叫做再次登入的功能就是你如果說帳號被盜然後在24小時之內你當部長你當部長你去了解清楚是沒有錯沒有問題這個事情你的耐使用者你的好友就全部消失了你要一個一個加回來你的群組就都沒了你買一個一個去找回來是"},{"start":447.999,"end":471.405,"text":"所以要嘛你就修改電信外企業你做不到你就不要下你如果寫出來你就要求通訊軟體業者你要做到這樣的事情我們會強烈監督一年來LINE的客戶投資有多少件這個我不知道這個要跟LINE才會知道你們的資料有啊大概有我掌握資訊大概五千多件一百多件"},{"start":474.4,"end":490.081,"text":"等一下這個是講的是說給倒數殘除的那個倒數殘除的客戶是不是還是倒賴的客戶五千多件啊那很多就是他的客戶的資料會消失所以我想說喔伯父既然"},{"start":491.042,"end":507.416,"text":"國人幾乎通訊軟體都是使用LINE市佔率也到達九成使用者滲透率是93%幾乎就是台灣的國民通訊軟體那麼我們就應該要求LINE啊任何系統都可能會發生類似這種"},{"start":510.401,"end":530.982,"text":"這種安全漏洞你要趕快把它補起來你要加強你的防護不要再發生如果萬一發生了那麼你應該做到至少按照我們契約上寫的你要維護消費者的權利因為帳號要行那人家原來帳號裡面的內容你要給人家恢復啊"},{"start":532.256,"end":548.885,"text":"是對不對不然我們政府這個進行外宣你你就改你就改做不到你就不要寫委員那個我們這個絕對會努力的但是這個因為個案每一個個案裡面都是通常會有些不少那我希望部長要特別重視這個事情因為LINE這個通訊軟體"},{"start":550.606,"end":575.163,"text":"特別不一樣全世界任何國家沒有一個通訊軟體示範率這麼高的是相對的喔這個已經有已經達到我們國安層級了我都是直接找他們台灣的董事長還有那個日本的那個團隊直接來談如果那有一天他整個掛掉了我們彼此之間大家都沒有辦法聯絡是喔是是是這樣好不好好 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我們請劉世芳劉部長好 麻煩劉部長"},{"start":8.557,"end":33.823,"text":"部長好 部長我其實蠻意外今天就又要開始來討論這個公職委員選舉罷免法的修正那因為其實在內政委員會這個法律案真的是修蠻多次的那其實在我在立法院的三屆裡面也討論過非常多次尤其是光是這個18歲的選舉權真的真的就是討論非常非常多次那今天大家可以看到我們這個我們的提案"},{"start":34.423,"end":56.244,"text":"不分潮也不分藍綠其實各黨團各個委員都有提案說哎呀現在世界的潮流啊等等之類的都是應該是18歲那可是我們的國家因為憲法的規定到20歲才能夠有選舉報名的權利所以我們應該要來修法是藍綠都有喔"},{"start":56.664,"end":80.817,"text":"可是你回過頭去看在2022年的時候當時在提出這個憲法的修正案的時候希望能夠降低年輕人的選舉罷免權利的時候其實在國民黨的基層當時我不敢說是全黨啦但是當時在國民黨的基層曾經有一種聲音是要說這個是公投在綁大選這是有政治的操作那所以我們要拒領公投票"},{"start":81.477,"end":105.439,"text":"那也很遺憾的其實在2022年的時候那一次的修憲公投雖然贊成要把選舉投票的權利這個年齡要下修到18歲的贊成票是多過於反對票的可是很可惜的投票門檻就沒有到所以當時修憲沒有成功那是我們最接近把選罷法的年齡下修的一次"},{"start":106.38,"end":122.662,"text":"那可是今天憲法依然還沒有被修正完成那我們今天要來修正選舉罷免法當中的投票年齡選罷的年齡部長你怎麼看這個事件謝謝委員的指教委員非常關心18歲的公民圈"},{"start":123.603,"end":139.693,"text":"確實沒有錯所有的委員呢對於在選罷法裡面修正下修投票年齡到18歲幾乎跨黨派都完全贊成但是會最主要是講他的程序剛剛委員有提到這個程序的話就是在包括在剛剛修正通過的"},{"start":140.313,"end":167.631,"text":"基本法裡面青年基本法裡面都有提到希望這個該法實行之日起兩年內要完備相關的法制但是呢他的指定對象並不是指包括行政院在內的其他部會而是大院也就是立法院那剛剛所提到的在上一次呢立法院幾乎是全院的委員通過把這個修憲版本送公民投票也是公民複決但是公民複決呢最主要是全部的選舉的那個人要過半"},{"start":171.694,"end":188.585,"text":"就修憲門檻嘛是 那就是修憲門檻太高但是我們不能因為修憲門檻太高然後就提到說那這樣子我們是不是不要管憲法了就直接管這個青年基本法跟管選罷法我想我們問過很多不同的意見的人包括憲法學者也有各種不同的說法"},{"start":189.065,"end":193.09,"text":"所以剛剛有幾位委員提到說有沒有可能在內政委員會再辦一下這樣的公聽會大家一起來辯論用什麼樣子的方式會最好我想這樣對於我們對於回應18歲的公民權可能會是最完善而且比較合乎我們台灣的憲法或是選罷法的相關規定"},{"start":207.586,"end":215.068,"text":"所以部長您是基於現在內政部長的身份您再一次的表示其實我們的選舉權年齡是否要調整因為憲法有規定所以如果要調整的話您個人認為是應該要從憲法來修正開始做起如果"},{"start":225.751,"end":244.99,"text":"不是這樣 不是從修憲開始的話 那麼至少也要先有公聽會大家來討論意見 拟據共識 然後才來決定是否在不動憲法的情況下 修正選罷法 您的意見是這樣嗎我不敢這樣子做判斷齁 但是我從這個青年基本法的附帶決議裡面 那當時是各個黨團協商的結果"},{"start":248.613,"end":273.605,"text":"是希望說立法院在完備的相關法制包括立法院應該研議進行修憲程序這兩個部分都要能夠完備所以修憲為什麼沒有態度不是沒有態度我的意思是因為你不敢這樣說我剛剛有提到了上一次修憲沒有成功最主要的理由是因為公投的門檻很高但是修憲的主要機關是在立法院"},{"start":274.105,"end":293.37,"text":"那我站在行政的立場我沒有辦法幫立法院說話所以我是覺得說立法院的各個黨團是否研議修憲的程序是怎麼樣的研議法或者是說要怎麼樣進行完備的相關法制包括修我們的選罷法我們都完全尊重"},{"start":294.17,"end":295.831,"text":"我們兩個的意見我們兩個的立場態度意見應該是一致的就是台灣的選舉罷免的權利其實應該是要把年齡下修因為我們可以看到我們其實在18歲我們再來複習一次在台灣"},{"start":312.225,"end":330.737,"text":"你看看我們的18歲可以做的事情有太多了我們18歲可以做的事情不管是民法刑法上面我們都是完全的行為能力人然後我們在各式各樣的這種條件上面也都可以甚至是我們在公投在決定重大的議題上面我們也通通都可以來做討論"},{"start":331.918,"end":354.725,"text":"連同性婚姻啊這個等等的這麼重大的價值的判斷我們都可以來做討論但是你要決定民意代表或行政首長竟然不行這就是一個非常有趣的矛盾點你已經被社會認可是一個完全的行為能力人甚至可以做價值的判斷但你不能夠決定你的行政首長你不能決定代表你的民意代表"},{"start":355.205,"end":366.233,"text":"好 那如果從世界的趨勢來看的話整個東亞也只剩下新加坡跟台灣是還維持在20歲其他的國家通通都已經是18歲了好 那所以我當然是贊成我們的選舉年齡可以選辦的年齡選舉不選舉的年齡可以下修到18歲所以我相信部長也是一樣"},{"start":375.64,"end":400.879,"text":"不過看起來部長你基於你的立場和身份所以你不便對立法院的程序還有立法院的進程多做表態那我剛剛第一個問你的是說其實在2022年的時候因為雖然大家各黨各派都提出了修憲案全院也都通過了但是在坊間進行推動是否修憲是否修正憲法規定的"},{"start":401.559,"end":419.544,"text":"投票年齡的時候其實各黨派的氣氛不一樣啊但我想部長也不適合也沒有打算在這個備詢台上面做表態我可以理解但我最重要的我今天利用這個時間就是再一次的跟社會大眾溝通我想全社會應該都同意"},{"start":421.425,"end":424.889,"text":"我們的選舉年齡其實應該要下修了那不管是哪一種程序要被啟動不管是從公聽會要啟動或者是甚至再啟動一次修憲的程序我想其實大家都應該要有共識才對所以我是希望啦"},{"start":438.667,"end":455.741,"text":"這個未來如果是部長這邊當我們在推動的時候或者立法院 不管是立法院啟動也好啦或者是內政部這邊還會想到其他的方式來啟動的時候我想我們這次應該是要積極一點用更積極的態度來處理這個長年多年的問題部長你同意嗎是 謝謝委員指教 我們樂觀其成好 謝謝部長"}]}},{"id":"168245","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168245","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/70d8fc05dcd8abb04f435b7dbe1dd15c2d46cf68b7d09b75ce185cfc45202cc03b92ca8a14ff0d395ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張智倫","委員發言時間":"09:44:26 - 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謝謝主席各位委員 各位官員大家早齁有請劉世芳部長以及中選會王小林處長我剛有 我剛有"},{"start":22.705,"end":47.6,"text":"好 謝謝喔好 今天我們內政委員會排審這個公職人選舉罷免法以及總統、副總統選舉罷免法等多項法案的修正草案那主要重點就是落實七年章政想要把選舉門檻的年齡下修到18歲以及檢討候選人的一些消極資格包含這個受緩刑宣告者是否可以參選"},{"start":48.641,"end":77.487,"text":"的一些規定當然要做討論以及多元參政原住民參選選區的彈性規則不過今天我首先還是要先請教就教我們中選會的部分因為立法院在3月14號已經完成審查通過中選會主委游盈隆等四人的人事案那三個禮拜過去了行政院公然行政帶墮現在還沒有完成這個交接跟就職程序我要請教中選會"},{"start":79.526,"end":93.319,"text":"現在目前已經從去年的11月3號到現在今年現在是116年的4月是不是中選會在這幾個月都沒有辦法到法定門檻來去開中選會的委員會議請回答"},{"start":98.141,"end":126.578,"text":"中選會代表報告那跟委員報告那中選會是依照中選會組織法以及會議規則的規定來辦理委員會的召開那從去年的11月到目前的確我們是以委員選務座談會的方式來辦理這個相關的事務的這個報告事項那有關說這個新任委員會就任那到底是什麼時候才能就任那這邊提供一些資料"},{"start":128.018,"end":152.811,"text":"那就是依照114年10月31日本會622次委員會議審議通過的今年年底的選舉工作進行程序表的規定那中選會要在今年的8月20號發布選舉公告那這個公告裡面要載明應選名額競選經費最高金額等等那8月27日要發布候選人登記公告那要載明候選人應備具的表件保證金數額等等"},{"start":153.271,"end":176.737,"text":"那這些公告的內容保證金的數額這些都要提請委員會議來討論後才能通過然後才能刊登在各種選舉公告上那所以在此之前應該要及早來召開委員會議那還有本會因為未召開委員會議目前有台北市等六個選舉委員會下屆委員的人選尚未確認"},{"start":178.557,"end":200.805,"text":"所以中選會期盼說新任的委員可以及早就任然後召開委員會議來審議各項重要的選務工作事項那以利年底的公職人選舉的選務工作可以順利進行以上好謝謝王處長王處長把我下一個問題也問過了所以的確行政院現在公然怠惰行政怠惰導致這個延遲了五個月"},{"start":201.725,"end":227.475,"text":"這個中選會的會議我們重要的委員會都沒有辦法開立那這個整個提名的作業這個任命的作業也延遲所以也會影響到中選會的一些作業包含明年度的選舉等等的事項你剛才特別提到包含是地方選委會的人事案無法任命以及這個今年度九合一大選今年度的很多這個地方的"},{"start":228.956,"end":235.744,"text":"這個選委會的人是無法任命 以及今年年底九合一大選很多的事項會無法進行 您說的是這樣的意思嗎"},{"start":237.47,"end":262.569,"text":"是若干的事物要經過委員會討論後有沒有明確一點的是大概什麼事物例如說這個競選經費最高金額那如果沒有辦法這個東西沒有辦法提出來的話那會不會影響到今年年底九合一大選這個應該是會影響到那請問中選會有沒有什麼的補償的措施還是一定要等到這些人事案都提名完畢那依照中選會的組織法的規定那應該是要召開委員會來討論"},{"start":267.556,"end":295.744,"text":"好 謝謝 那請得部長部長我知道中選會的業務非屬您的管轄範圍可是針對現在這樣子中選會影響到明年九合一大選的選務的相關的諸位不然人事提名或者是未來整整的選舉的事務您是不是有什麼樣的建議可以給行政院來去做執行報告委員因為中選會的業務確實非內政部所主管我想在這個地方我沒有辦法帶中選會來回應"},{"start":296.744,"end":322.898,"text":"好謝謝部長好那我再請處長處長所以你剛剛講到一個重點這個行政院這個沒有依照他應該要去做的來去做這個任命的部分其實會影響到明年的九合一的大選今年的九合一大選那我本席人在這裡要特別提醒其實還有就是有關於公投或者是未來我們很多這個立法委員如果去選縣市首長未來的補選"},{"start":325.559,"end":350.531,"text":"這兩件事情是不是未來也是需要中選會的委員會開會才能做出這樣的決議各位報告這兩個事項都是需要經過委員會來討論謝謝所以我必須要在這邊還是要嚴肅的講行政院現在不依照程序來去提名現在我們立法院所通過的人事案其實對今年的九合一大選會有非常嚴重的影響以及"},{"start":351.511,"end":365.058,"text":"會沒收我們大家人民所期待以及重視的公投以及未來如果這個地方民意代表的補選的問題喔都會有非常大的影響好謝謝謝謝組長然後接下來我再請教劉部長"},{"start":367.796,"end":387.405,"text":"部長那今天在討論的有關於這個我們的選罷法的一些問題那討論到這個選罷法裡面法官實務上會給予緩刑的一個宣告那就是說這個案情是輕微或是具備這個改過自新的可能"},{"start":388.385,"end":412.218,"text":"那我想要請教這個部長您剛有特別提到您對這個如果判緩刑不應該剝奪人民參政權應該符合比例原則你這邊您的看法是怎麼樣比如說是犯輕罪比如說可能就是剛剛很多委員講的只是一些吵架被判緩刑那是不是這個部分你是支持是可以未來是有參政權"},{"start":413.344,"end":436.73,"text":"報告委員我們剛已經表達過我們的意見就是我們考慮這個法律的橫平性還有它的穩定性所以現在如果現在就是要修正但是修正所謂的輕罪到底是多輕或者是緩刑到底是什麼叫做緩刑的這個規定它是不是仍然是屬於法務部或者司法院要來做解釋我們會比較清楚"},{"start":437.25,"end":454.711,"text":"否則它只是一個模糊的概念的話我們內政部或是中選會當成選政跟選務機關在執行層面上就會落入一個模糊地帶我想這樣反而不好所以我很支持剛剛幾位委員在發表意見的時候就是說是不是我們也可以請教一下這個法學界的代表"},{"start":455.151,"end":471.943,"text":"他們是不是可以就這樣的部分做一下公聽會的表達那這樣子我們未來在做比較好的修正條文的時候比較不會落入兩端那這個清跟眾之間的所屬我們反而不曉得如何做決定好 謝謝部長因為時間的關係我們還有最後一題最近非常重要的一個議題要來請教"},{"start":473.664,"end":492.229,"text":"最近這個在社會上發生非常多的獨駕事件那我看你有開記者會針對獨駕來去做要加強來查緝的部分那我特別提出來在從這個我們去年這個喪屍煙彈依託彌子我們把它提升到二級毒品以後其實獨駕的問題還是非常嚴重在去年的11月20號"},{"start":495.69,"end":522.962,"text":"這個我們現在獨駕的整個整個案件量其實有高達3000多件其實一天的獨駕大概就已經有這個二三十件了所以發生的頻率非常的高那本席想要來請教我們部長的就是說你有在新聞報導中有提到就是說你想要來把這個獨駕有相關的一些罰則或者是一些預防的措施來把它做加強所以我要想"},{"start":523.362,"end":551.659,"text":"我再請教部長是不是可以現在因為我覺得這非常重要就是未來有關於獨駕也是應該是要零容忍是不是有一些預防性羈押的一些的一些方式我們這個會期可以來討論或者是說如果是獨駕累犯的話的刑責不能一顆罰金或者是說獨駕的話同車的乘客就像酒駕一樣也要連坐連罰的像相關的規定是不是可以請部長"},{"start":552.8,"end":567.397,"text":"謝謝張委員的關心我們內政部的警政署跟法務部還有台灣高檢署有在研議更強力的法治作為所以我們的建議就是說法務部要修正刑法來提高獨家的刑責"},{"start":568.258,"end":583.685,"text":"然後同時對於累犯或者是獨家肇事者要制定一個強化申請羈押以及不得義科罰金等措施並且朝著不確定故意殺人罪方向來偵辦但是我們內政部的警政署只能提建議"},{"start":584.645,"end":604.436,"text":"所以我們也建議司法院要修訂這個刑事訴訟法的第101條之一將獨駕納入可預防性羈押的案例也就是說未來大概內政部跟法務部要跟司法院一起來努力才可以達到剛剛委員所提到的我們怎麼樣加重刑責然後來遏止獨駕"},{"start":606.397,"end":631.431,"text":"好 那我請教部長 這個法案您這邊會來協調各部會 這個會期有辦法還是說報告委員 我們剛剛有經提過了就是我們有召開一個跨部會的合作機制但是修法的機關呢 還是會以法務部為主因為法務部他們在刑法的這個提升獨駕的刑責或者是說對於獨駕的這個累犯的部分的話呢這個都是要法務部跟司法院一起來合作好 給部長我再簡單請教一下 你們有會議記錄嗎"},{"start":634.394,"end":642.494,"text":"我想會議紀錄是屬於內部的文書我們現在把結論已經跟委員報告了好 那我需要說這個會期我們盡快來把這個東西往前推行謝謝部長"}]}},{"id":"168243","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168243","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/70d8fc05dcd8abb0df84c616805cffe51607b63c45e41aa0ce185cfc45202cc0716be6cd68217e7c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王安祥","委員發言時間":"10:54:50 - 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有請蔡局長好 謝謝主席 翁國仁早局長早我想對國家安全來說因為我們現在受到中國很大的威脅我想美國對我們來說應該是非常重要的一個戰略夥伴所以在我們公開的報告裡面第一頁就看到美國他們基本上採用了"},{"start":30.481,"end":50.316,"text":"所謂實力追求和平不過這幾天我想大家都看到這個美國啊真的這個深不可測啊這個昨天晚上還說要這個打一副要打的樣子今天早上我們這個一覺醒來發現就這個好像可以演兩週今天早上剛剛我看那個股市又開始大漲所以對於美國這個"},{"start":52.518,"end":81.236,"text":"好像態度很特別不曉得國安單位對於跟美方的關係上有沒有什麼特別的看法今天早上還在跟媒體做說明中東的情勢是我們跟國際友盟交換情資一個重點的議題大概美方在過程當中他很強調實力為原則所以在第一波的軍事打擊幾乎把伊朗的海空軍都給做了癱瘓但是伊朗因為透過不對稱的方式持續的來對赫姆茲海峽的航運安全進行洗腦而增加他的一個談判的籌碼"},{"start":82.116,"end":111.258,"text":"那美國大概兩個重點跟委員做報告一個部分是軍事上的極限施壓因為他大概調派了這些兩棲攻擊艦、登陸艦集結到中東地區去那也給了最後的讓步的一個期限那第二部分他也透過外交穿梭的方式透過巴基斯坦還有其他中東國家在跟伊朗進行必要的一個相關的談判所以可能在極限施壓跟談判兩手策略之下那有今天早上的結果那在川普總統宣布之後伊朗外長也證實了未來兩週可能荷姆斯艾俠的"},{"start":111.878,"end":138.384,"text":"會OK嗎就是今天為什麼股市會大漲因為我也是同學界來其實我們都在查資料的時候都會看很多各個面向的狀況不過最近看美國這個除了它是為了和平有些不為了美國的利益也可能是它重要的一個考慮之一我也建議這個很多可能要納入考慮所以這個基本上這個可以看到我們在報告書裡面有提到這個是2026裡面的一些"},{"start":140.985,"end":165.638,"text":"他的一些戰略美國戰略的一個考慮不過在我們去查了這個2026這個版本裡面包含他的一些國家的戰略報告也有在第二頁安全戰略或者是國防戰略裡面其實我們最近好像發現美國的他的戰略好像有一些做一些改變好像慢慢慢慢過去這個2014 2018左右他們好像都是把那個中國的威脅"},{"start":166.759,"end":173.084,"text":"跟委員說明一下在國防政會裡面他確實有強調本土防衛跟西半球的防衛但他緊接著馬上又提到的是英泰安全的關注"},{"start":188.798,"end":206.649,"text":"畢竟我們看到是公開版可能也有在政治上他們做一些取捨因為後續還是有川習會的一個互動盡量沒有在文字上做一些相關不必要的一個強調不過實際上在戰略布局上委員假如有稍微看一下我們的報告有去說明到"},{"start":207.009,"end":233.96,"text":"美國在過程當中怎麼樣來加強跟印太友盟在安保議題防衛議題的合作那這部分不只是雙邊合作多邊的演訓也非常的綿密光這個月在菲律賓應該就有三個場次的美盟的大規模的演訓人數都快到兩萬人之多我瞭解就是感覺上跟美國的這個合作還是非常綿密啦不過就是有一些這種報告像我剛剛這個我現在在投影片上CSS這個部分好像看起來很多的用詞"},{"start":235.16,"end":252.897,"text":"真的都比較軟了 互相尊重啊然後這個中國保持互相尊重的關係減少一些不必要的對抗我想局長應該有看到這些報告那剛才郭委員說明因為他後續還有領導人的會晤所以也有鋪陳一些比較正面的外交氣氛那不過在安全"},{"start":253.638,"end":265.292,"text":"戰略上美國跟我們反制中國的一些作為具體的作為一直有在檯面下推動所以這個也是啦我想國內也非常關心這個川習會的狀況啦我想局長怎麼看現在大概的狀況"},{"start":266.743,"end":295.556,"text":"對 目前大概基本上他們彼此的爭議的議題都是結構性的那我們在報告當中也特別提到了這包括地緣政治的問題 軍事的競爭高科技管制的問題最重要的是還有經貿的議題 關稅的議題所以問題林林總總的那都涉及結構性所以結構性就是說短期要根本的解決不容易那但是現在美國所採取的策略跟方法是來管理這些爭議那他們認為跟中國要管理爭議的話一定要鎖定習近平"},{"start":296.076,"end":318.864,"text":"因為他是最大領導人你跟官僚溝通接觸沒有用所以一定要跟習近平之間有這樣的領導人會晤的機制所以我看美國方面也為了這次的川習會有做一些相關的一個準備那不過我們的判斷是因為這些結構性的問題都還在所以可能重點是在於看他們怎麼來管理爭議那可能這次川習會之後我們反倒更"},{"start":320.024,"end":346.606,"text":"關注的重點是在於習近平後續的回訪因為川習會他只是一個開場針對這些議題雙方去表述立場跟意見可是到了習近平回訪美國的時候可能又到了另外一個階段要檢視有沒有在川習會當中相關的承諾有去落實包括美國要開放希望中國開放相關美國農產品進入市場到時候會被檢驗所以我想這是一個動態的過程那我們會繼續來注重"},{"start":348.007,"end":377.687,"text":"因為這個軍購的事情我這個今年一月我也陪著我們的主席到美國去啦那我這一條影片就是美國情報社的一些這個就針對中國的威脅啦那看起來很多他都講到所謂這個2027嘛我們一直在討論這個事情這跟我們的軍購有關看起來其實他們很多現在內部這個情報社他們好像感覺上他們不覺得剛剛局長有說啦可能跟營造一個好的川習會會有關係啦所以我也希望局長對這個美國這邊的一些態度啦可能要有一些掌握啦"},{"start":378.627,"end":388.854,"text":"因為這個真的是川普他這個很多的策略其實看不大懂對 這一部分我們大概跟國際理念相近國家都有保持密切的溝通"},{"start":389.793,"end":409.251,"text":"那就是在我們的那個報告裡面其實有很多這個擾台的部分包括不論是空軍、海軍或者一些漁船或是它關閉一些訊號那這個局長是不是還是可以跟我們的國人講說我們那個國安單我們都有密切的掌握可以報告大家跟大家說一下就是我們大家都有掌握的"},{"start":409.871,"end":424.556,"text":"有這部分在涉密的報告閉門會當中有跟委員做充分的說明包括我們運用各種的親自來源來掌握中共包括共軍還有海上會在洗腦的整體的動態我想這個全民都非常非常關注"},{"start":425.256,"end":442.368,"text":"另外就是資安的部分就是這個這次報告裡面有一個就是一劑因為可能現在一劑而已大概一億七千多萬不過我們過去看過去的報告大概每天大概兩百八十萬次這樣乘起來好像最近還變比較少是不是數字上有一些不是那麼精準"},{"start":443.028,"end":462.478,"text":"我跟委員說明一下我們在今年的一月中旬有公布一個去年整年的中共對台資安侵擾的狀況對 平均每天嘛對 那個每天是兩百八十萬次因為它是一整年的一個數據的統計的結果那但是我們這一次在業務報告當中所公布的就第一季就這一季那特別第一季當中還有涉及到"},{"start":463.72,"end":479.438,"text":"年假我知道 我知道年假的部分會比較少對 會比較少所以我們只是針對第一季的總數來做一些呈現那到了年底我們會再把整年的狀況來做一個就是讓我們大概知道一下我們知道這個狀況蠻多的嘛就是這個數字可能還是請局長再出來的時候做一些那個"},{"start":480.178,"end":505.79,"text":"那當然我看到前面很多委員都非常關注這個東西啦就是這個共諜案的部分我想就是還是請因為發生非常非常多而且很多人都是蠻重要的位置啦不想局長這個其實剛剛那個金鵬仔裡面有提到一些啦現在我們是不是可以強化一些我們的相關的作為就可以跟大家報告的部分好那這部分中共對台的一些滲透啦還有前功活動大概都是系統性的"},{"start":507.035,"end":523.142,"text":"針對性的跟計劃性的那所謂的系統性的指的是它包括國安系統勤工系統統戰系統他們都有一個非常綿密的組織來推動對台的這些情收次密或發展組織的工作第二個它是計劃性的也就是它都有發展出"},{"start":523.582,"end":539.893,"text":"一套的網絡來接觸可能稱為他在台協力者的來自台灣各界的一個人士的一個脫交流來篩選特定的對象他是有計畫性的有時候只是統戰的活動但是從統戰活動當中又去發展出他的情搜的一個網絡"},{"start":540.994,"end":561.272,"text":"那第三個部分是針對性的那早期大概主要針對的會是軍中比較中階的軍官因為中階軍官比較會接觸到涉密的情資那但是現在我們感覺到他的接觸已經開始往基層的士官兵來做接觸所以委員可能也注意到一些共諜案大概這一部分感覺上的那個"},{"start":563.033,"end":590.611,"text":"就是最近我想全民都有這種感覺啦而且很多人是涉及到一些精免資料的啦那也是請這個局長這邊再多多的這個關照這個事情有有 剛剛蔡秉偉有跟委員長報告也建議立法院這邊可能可以有一個法治規範來推動相關的保防還有反情報的工作對對 因為也不只立法院啦因為有其他 當然當然所以希望這個局長能夠多加把勁能夠把這個地方 應該的能鞏固 維護這個台灣的國家安全好 這是我們工作 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主席有請蔡局長請局長"},{"start":8.854,"end":28.875,"text":"好 謝謝主席 林委員長主席好 局長好 這個有關於這個我想質詢的內容跟題目其實也不是新的 因為之前我在針對國防部的時候有質詢過那就是徐澄英的這個案子 昨天也開庭了那麼其實如果根據起訴書是看不出來 但是開庭的相關內容有"},{"start":30.536,"end":37.398,"text":"部分的時間點包括到2025年的10月孫憲這個人他都還進入台灣那麼我不講個案我想要請問一個通案的狀況就是我們知道現在中國人進來台灣尤其是像孫憲這種他有特殊的身份可能帶有特殊任務的其實移民署是會經過審查的可是我們發現到2025年的10月他都還進來台灣而最近我也收到了許多的朋友提醒"},{"start":59.466,"end":79.625,"text":"包括像有這個中國的網紅他呢穿著這個所謂中國的這種古裝到全世界甚至於進來台灣不斷的是宣傳說台灣是中國的一部分那像這樣的一個網紅為什麼他可以自由進出台灣那到底是用一個什麼樣的身份是不是說就是用這種所謂的"},{"start":81.787,"end":105.899,"text":"假商務交流但是實質上是在做統戰甚至於是現在已經進行像孫憲這種所謂滲透的實質任務那會不會變成是說根據我們現在兩岸人民關係條例喔如果你要進來的話必須要有一個審查而現在這個審查只是要給一個切結書是不是這個切結書現在都留於一種形式是不是這些所謂商業的公司都變成了"},{"start":106.94,"end":124.587,"text":"真的匪諜就在你我的身邊而且他們是假商務之名但是行滲透之時是不是這個過程現在國安局有發現而這樣的一個狀況那麼是不是要有嘉妍又或者是什麼樣的特殊的人物在這個審查不至於流於一種形式主義"},{"start":125.917,"end":140.321,"text":"跟委員說明一下謝謝委員長期對於國安共諜案件的關切那我剛才在跟媒體朋友做說明了就現在在媒體上看到的所有共諜案我可以跟委員報告全部都是由我們國安系統來發動的來立案查查的"},{"start":142.722,"end":162.477,"text":"那有涉及到違法的事證的話我們再細簡移交給司法單位來做整版那後續才會有委員所看到的起訴書的相關的內容這大概是不就個案來講就通案來講我們一個處理的過程大概第一部分那第二部分是委員關切到有沒有一些入籍的人士到台灣來那審查了機制的運作的狀況"},{"start":163.217,"end":184.942,"text":"那我們大概都有一個聯審的機制那在場的移民署也都會通報到國安局這邊來提供我們的國安意見那我們會注意的是他申請人他相關的一個黨政背景的一個狀況那或是他也許沒有黨政背景但是他很有可能是一個網紅的身份那以前在網路上也有曾經張貼比較異常的這個資訊我們都有在注意啦"},{"start":187.462,"end":204.873,"text":"有時候讓他們進來是必要的,我們才能夠了解大概活動跟交往的狀況所以有些的案子,我們整個的過程的處理可能都要蠻長的時間幾年時間可能都要所以局長的意思就是說,其實有的時候讓他們進來是所謂的放長線釣大魚"},{"start":208.672,"end":237.412,"text":"是這個意思嘛 對不對就是說你們查查的方法跟了解有的時候懷疑但是也會有做必要的這個在安全上面的防護了解對 然後另外會有兩個狀況第一個狀況是假如他進來之後的活動跟他申請來台目的不一樣的話我們會啟動我們的機制及時驅離出境第二部分 假如他來台的活動有涉及到異常的話我記得我應該是在前年啟動一個機制我們會進行必要的約談"},{"start":238.112,"end":263.582,"text":"那也會列入我們的名單下次要來可能就比較沒有那麼容易但我們會配合到相關的案情案況來判斷要不要讓他來那因為這是影響到我們的一些部署好那麼如果說是一個最新的訊息包括就是現在中國他會利用台灣的言論自由那麼以到台灣來進入落地採訪的方式原本是希望把台灣政治自由民主的部分報導回去"},{"start":263.962,"end":275.095,"text":"但是會以像最新的訊息現在包括像海峽島報的新聞中心主任王偉過去那就是以滲透的方式來買通就是朱正琦那麼像這樣的一個狀況媒體如果說已經報導了那像這樣的人"},{"start":278.899,"end":302.299,"text":"他在台灣這些年的活動那麼接下來還會繼續讓他留在台灣嗎那像這種的狀況以言論自由的方式其實是傷害台灣的自由民主以言論自由之名然後傷害台灣自由民主那像這樣的人的話會請他離開嗎又或者是說接下來他就像剛局長所說的會特別的來嚴厲的審查甚至於取消他的入台的資格"},{"start":303.82,"end":329.273,"text":"這大概兩個部分剛有各位說明進來一定都會經過審查的那有一個聯審的機制那第二個是他進來之後的言行包括言論跟行為那假如有設法的話包括鼓吹武統造成民眾的恐慌甚至有時候網民都已經檢舉到我們相關的單位了那這個我們就會很快速的處理我們也曾經很短的幾個小時之內透過市區的監視器掌握那個人的動態"},{"start":330.573,"end":345.981,"text":"及時的把他驅離出境,這個是有的,只要是違法的話那第二部分就是他假如沒有涉及到違法但是是違常、違異常、異常、違常的狀態的話那這個部分我剛有跟委員說明,我們也許會啟動約談或是列為下次拒絕入境的名單"},{"start":346.901,"end":371.955,"text":"好 所以對於這個相關的國安單位來說啦不只是國安局 包括調查局 移民署等等說實話在這樣的一個所謂聯合審查的國安體制當中你們的這個所謂業務只會越來越繁忙因為我們台灣畢竟是一個往來自由 然後言論自由的一個體制之下好 那麼另外當然我關注的這個部分喔"},{"start":372.355,"end":399.036,"text":"接下來是不是國安單位恐怕也要跟我們相關的包括工程會等等那就是對於像這個極致公司他事實上他不只是把這個孫憲帶進台灣甚至於他還承接了政府的多項標案我算了一下光2022年喔他承接的標案就超到2022年為止他承接的標案就高達1300萬"},{"start":401.258,"end":418.612,"text":"言下之意是用我們人民的納稅錢真正的在養共諜啊這個是完全我相信全台灣人民都不能接受的那像這樣的公司喔未來我相信絕對是黑名單但是負責人呢因為公司可以關了再開對不對"},{"start":421.933,"end":435.148,"text":"這樣相關的人士會不會有一個機制讓這樣的負責人就算未來他開公司這完全已經是傷害到國家了一個把共諜引進來的公司然後拿人民納稅的錢用政府的標案養共諜"},{"start":438.351,"end":455.491,"text":"這是絕對不能允許的那有沒有一個這樣的機制把它列為黑名單甚至於是這一個負責人或相關的負責人都應該成為黑名單絕對不能標正不標準尤其是你看他選的單位國防大學調查局國防部榮總"},{"start":457.333,"end":477.858,"text":"那像這些都是攸關到全民的全民防衛非常重要擁有角色的雖然我質詢的時候都說回去審查過了發現他們沒有接觸到核心機密資料或等等但是這也表示他選的單位非常的不一般所以我在這邊想要提醒就是國安局問一下局長你怎麼來看"},{"start":479.299,"end":487.649,"text":"謝謝委員的提醒那也正如委員的接收到的資訊我們也去了解各單位跟這家特定廠商"},{"start":489.636,"end":511.896,"text":"合作的一個狀況那因為廠商確實當時都有合格的因為委員也了解每個政府機構都有我們的政風系統去確認是不是合格廠商才能進入發包的程序所以程序看起來是沒有問題那但是委員提醒的是我們要注意的也就是說畢竟廠商還是有比較為異常的一個背景那他假如說又有承包到相關政府機敏單位的一些資"},{"start":513.538,"end":531.854,"text":"訓工程軟硬體的話那我們確實要注意雖然各單位在盤查過程當中發現不是有聯網的狀況的這些設備啦資安風險比較低那但是或許我們來注意不管是廠商或廠商背後的法人代表有沒有其他的新成立的公司這部分我們再來加強注意一下好 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素仁要請那個嗎對啊台電"},{"start":30.063,"end":34.924,"text":"剛剛我們廖偉強問的問題,我想他部長知道,他不太知道我補充一下,去年丹納斯颱風來,我們嘉義"},{"start":52.145,"end":61.618,"text":"台南、高雄那個光電的暗場受傷的有33個暗場那這些暗場上面那些光電板壞掉的"},{"start":62.406,"end":84.384,"text":"都沒到10年,都幾年了像我們去看那個最大的嘉義志鴻池那個64公頃,很蒸熟的到現在也沒辦法處理那弄上來這些你又不給他補那鄧副部長講的我們光電業者已經進入寒冬了現在要拖起來了所以"},{"start":85.365,"end":114.485,"text":"就坐在那裏,不幫忙也不行所以想這個案子來保護人家,讓他活著不過人家要不要再貸?人家會再貸給他嗎?二次貸款我還不清楚,不過那個還沒有動希望他可以起來啦不然的話,他也是死在那裏所以這個錯誤的能源政策我們屋頂的太陽能板,我們是絕對支持啦全世界都支持,但是成效不漲"},{"start":115.509,"end":130.863,"text":"那這些在農地的,在餘溫啊,像我們屏東搞了萬七八糟,這些真的是撒騙集團那現在已經搞成這樣了,那已經錯了,那多少對能源也有點幫忙所以現在是一陣風風颱颱來,但是我問銀行的人,銀行說他不跟台灣第二次,因為怕風風颱颱來,又燒一次,暗示又撤了現在要找什麼特質,要找模型要做,鋼管要做"},{"start":141.272,"end":159.647,"text":"所以這是問題,爭取也是所在那你能源署跟經濟部搞這個方案出來是要幫忙他們度過然後政府又不能拿錢直接有沒有拿錢直接補給他們,沒有吧沒有沒有啦齁你如果有你就我們死了,我告訴你一追下去你真的會出事啦好"},{"start":162.369,"end":181.84,"text":"我要問台電我在麥寮的朋友他說你們他們那個燃煤的廠本來要廢掉改成天然氣他現在經濟不清他不要動因為有可能馬上要頂上來燃煤我第一個問題是麥寮的燃煤有沒有現在有沒有在發電報告委員其實麥寮的燃煤目前是沒有發電的"},{"start":190.458,"end":216.369,"text":"那沒有發電怎麼我們今天早上抓到的今天早上8點抓到的PM2.5耐療是一直往上飆了目前耐療的三部機組其中二號機他已經拆掉了那一號機跟三號機都是停機當中所以沒有發電的對那他們本來是要把這個拆掉要改成天然氣是不是這樣不是你們現在叫他說不要動"},{"start":217.549,"end":230.676,"text":"旁邊在蓋 我說明一下他目前那個二號機拆掉跟他會再利用旁邊的空地他目前是在進行他一個燃氣機組的一個建置當中所以這個是持續在進行的所以會新建兩部燃氣機組現在麥寮在發電是客廳發電現在都停了 麥寮他沒有發電啊怎麼變2.5我們也是很認真在抓這個是環境部的monitor"},{"start":244.077,"end":265.063,"text":"空污不一定是發電廠的一個關係啊 對但是它實際上它賣的電廠是沒有在發電的 目前是沒有那他們 你們現在請他準備好 隨時要Stand by要上來因為是怕 怕那個 河木寺海峽那邊的東西進不來 是不是這樣"},{"start":266.306,"end":274.229,"text":"這個說明一下其實因為中東他整個情勢一個緊張所以各國他其實都已經在調整他的一個比如說他一個燃煤基礎的一個發電包括他可能開始啟動或者是說他有調整他一個發電的一個上限那其實以我們來講其實我們也是針對要針對這個天然氣的一個部分做一個彈性的一個能源的一個韌性所以這個是一個有備無患的一個做法所以經濟部長公"},{"start":293.655,"end":314.386,"text":"我們今年燃煤的用量一定比去年少講這個話 話中有話聽懂的人聽懂 聽不懂就所以如果我們目前對麥寮電廠我們是採用短期調度的方式來因應而且我們會秉持在今年的用煤量的水準不過超過去年的水準"},{"start":315.046,"end":321.47,"text":"所以水族準備要燃眉,因為其實各國都在調整我是覺得台電或經濟部要誠實的跟百姓講譬如說現在你天然氣,台電啊你們吸收了多少天然氣,有260億啦中油本來95、5000汽油,現在應該是如果"},{"start":339.642,"end":365.513,"text":"不吸收的話可能現在要四十幾塊了,照實講啊,讓百姓有感受啊所以不要都報喜不報憂,然後進講一些粉飾太平的話,那沒用啦現在變成大家都聰明,現在隨時都可以,我可以國文經常看人家環境部的monitor,他有五人啦,現在沒有五人啊嘛,好不好"},{"start":366.482,"end":376.059,"text":"部長,我昨天都在鄉村辦桌,台電、河山廠現在西湖公司的人已經都出去了,我也看到我們的賴總統這樣"},{"start":379.981,"end":404.072,"text":"轉彎,當然是最主要原因是來自美國的壓力美國國防部說我們至少要有兩座核能發電廠,才能保衛我們的基礎電力那些鄉村現在,博電你知不知道鄉村現在四個月了全部的民宿我們倒備了全部的餐廳大家都沒有,全部都吃土了但是歐克山莊將近400床的那個"},{"start":407.874,"end":414.116,"text":"四百個房間啦,不要講床,四百個房間的路貫都歸了現在有一些土木,水電都在核酸塘那邊開一天比這人,一天三千,所以不無小福,那些人很感謝那我看部長也很挺台電,還有總統這個"},{"start":432,"end":456.01,"text":"這個政策,所以我很肯定我們部長跟環境部這邊的用心那邊的人只要一提到那些光電板就咬牙切齒所以你怎麼彌補,最主要的是不然你要看我是怎樣,合兩家我覺得兩部機組太少了,應該用四部到六部"},{"start":457.558,"end":483.821,"text":"包委員 多元的能源如果可以減碳我們都會支持但是因為核電是屬於核安會在主管的也跟委員報告 因為目前環評的規定裡面這個是既有的機組 它目前不是不需要但是如果委員說要興建再多幾部那個就要再環評了 那個其實可能要花蠻多的時間要取得社會共識可能還要更多更多的"},{"start":484.781,"end":491.866,"text":"韓國的核能佔它總化電量57%30%法國70幾75%那德國號稱非核結果偷偷的跟法國買電那法國就用核能的電賣給它這個很諷刺"},{"start":503.473,"end":507.475,"text":"我看德國的電一度差不多14塊12到14塊我們負擔不起我們現在3塊8我們醫療的用電已經到7塊多很貴台電要漲價沒有人受得了所以"},{"start":523.803,"end":538.539,"text":"光電這邊你嚴格在管理,那我很肯定再來我要跟部長請教就是說,我們這一次的能源危機讓所有的塑膠業者,塑膠袋沒什麼,我講很好的啦,想要都買不到,要比較好,馬上大幅縮減,打標,否定?"},{"start":548.001,"end":565.926,"text":"現在我最大的問題,現在大家都穿環保帶,這樣很好啊但是你要讓人方便,還有誘因啦可不可以說你用小溜球,我們東郊去看,它有環保杯啊當時7-11你去買,買買要你贏贏的,你還要再購回來大家沒有什麼要贏什麼,一人贏過的東西"},{"start":571.363,"end":598.964,"text":"不要再高等,小小有錢錢沒有,小小有錢錢沒有怕恐懼嘛,所以你有沒有其他更好的方法,看這個機會看這個機會,用誘因來,譬如說煤啊,我是在想煤啊是不是有的用矽膠的,可以伸縮的,放下去比較好炸去買咖啡買什麼都可以水滴,冷凍的又赤赤的燒起來"},{"start":600.245,"end":603.667,"text":"有這種想法嗎?有啊,有包委員,有啦有包委員,像那個目前那個自己帶飲料杯自己的杯子然後去便利商店大概有兩成左右是可以折五塊嘛"},{"start":615.333,"end":641.238,"text":"啊這個誘因是最有效的啦誘因最有效啊之後我只能情感呼籲說啊你要環保貸有時候那個就相對的比較少有的人會做有人不會做那目前呢我們在那個建國花市喔那個悠遊卡如果你自己帶環保貸5塊啊我們是希望可以更多但是那個要花3萬倍也可以但是那個要花很多錢我們在測試這個市場上的這個接受程度我們是希望有經濟的誘因在裡面會比較快比較好啦"},{"start":642.478,"end":665.594,"text":"我是因為站在醫生的立場,這東西是自己會比較安心的,回去怎麼洗,這是你的事情嘛但是你這個東西,我們社會可以伸縮的啦,又不會老啦,好好走,不然一隻胖子站在旁邊也很奇怪所以這個要用點心啦,看看有沒有辦法,因為這一次探這個機會"},{"start":667.759,"end":672.965,"text":"塑膠袋一個人一天說你講的說一天用2.1個這真的假的一點多個這樣都可以減量這樣是好事因為那個還是汙染嘛那我最後一個問題我們的PE你說我們自己自給自足100%是不是"},{"start":688.782,"end":717.761,"text":"對那這些我們醫療也有用很多食藥署也是用很多你們現在是有問題嗎100%的自給自利然後又說不夠是到底出在哪裡不要又是缺點滴又是缺什麼又來了因為我們現在在單一的平台已經確定從藥廠藥商跟醫材商他的下游包括包材商跟樹立供應的商面"},{"start":718.422,"end":729.674,"text":"那這個部分前面這邊是衛福部食藥署後面的是產發署跟經濟部產發署協作所以雙方的協作我們現在藥廠通報說會缺的8家醫材通報目前有"},{"start":734.6,"end":748.668,"text":"加起來19家那我們實際上去評 去談要問細的 他們很緊張啊所以有缺12月的就已經來報了但是有缺6月5月的我們現在立即需要去支援的大概兩家"},{"start":750.629,"end":765.298,"text":"醫材商裡面總共有六家的所謂塑料的所謂醫材供應的部分有六家這六家我們都直接請產發署的同仁們直接對接所以我們做的兩邊就是食藥署跟產發署經濟部跟衛福部"},{"start":766.819,"end":783.928,"text":"雙方面往下走各自去對因為我們怕說我們對的傳導的是不一樣所以雙方對起來的目前是有兩家公司六家需要支持的部分目前都是直接對上了但是目前狀況是這樣都是PE嘛不只各項的都有各項的BVCTVC PE都有GEC的都有都有對對對目前是這樣"},{"start":791.672,"end":805.385,"text":"是啦這個我們也有協調因為這些原來很多都要靠進口啦現在那個地緣政治的關係沒辦法進口或是他們需要自己都不夠了所以你能掌控就是戰略上自己能夠100%的自己可以控制"},{"start":809.549,"end":830.67,"text":"目前這個跨部會都有在協調這個事情這部分我們有平起來一個月大概現在叫1200噸左右在醫材跟藥品箱包材那相對於整體的5萬噸來講是一小部分而已所以已經協調完優先供應大概在供應的部分你不要到時候連那個點滴瓶 點滴瓶也是PE嘛"},{"start":831.831,"end":841.376,"text":"對 現在是透析了洗聖瓶的那個也都是拼的那個都是拼 目前是那個到時候連那個缺的也有的有這個我們非常非常高度警覺好 謝謝好 謝謝蘇清泉委員發言"}]}},{"id":"168257","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168257","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/70d8fc05dcd8abb08fed7cd377f3f259a7afadf2dd1952ecce185cfc45202cc0e901f84a635eded85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"11:28:21 - 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周偉進行質詢謝謝主席 也請經濟部鞏部長請經濟部鞏部長鍾游芳董事長鍾游芳董事長主席總署李副署 黃副署長經貿辦徐志密邱志偉好這個第一個問題從你們的報告想請教經濟部鞏部長"},{"start":27.284,"end":50.758,"text":"就是說關於中油的這個增資案本部將依向金融機構辦理專案融資第二個用特別國安任性特別條例的預算的餘裕進行撥補然後規劃辦理增資能不能講得更清楚一點你用這三個方向要達成未來1.16到1.19四年3500億"},{"start":54.821,"end":63.84,"text":"用這三個來源我們說明更清楚一點沒有 3500億那個是編預算證資那第一年就是明年第一年我們會"},{"start":66.353,"end":90.061,"text":"編1687億然後後續會再編預算那你報告說這個緊急財這些營運基金就是為了要用三千五嘛三千五百億的這個增資那講到這三項像金融機構辦理專案農資還有用特別條例的特別預算還有辦理增資對 那個專案貸款的部分是充實這個"},{"start":92.181,"end":111.156,"text":"綜合公司的現金流啊那你專案融資你要融資多少現金流可能會有所不足啊那可能那個董事長比較清楚因為這你們報告裡面寫你還要跟金融機構辦理專案融資融資的額度是多少規模是多少目前我們提出來是3000億的融資3000億不包含3500億喔"},{"start":113.578,"end":128.146,"text":"這是兩件事情哇塞啦你要增資三千五在未來四年嘛你要跟這個金融機構要辦理專案融資又是三千億對不對那加起來六千五了喔好那你說的用這個特別預算的餘裕進行撥補要撥補多少"},{"start":131.243,"end":148.323,"text":"伯谷現在是行政院還在核算當中所以就有三個來源3500億是增資3千億是跟金融機構專案融資另外還有特別預算的這個伯谷這樣大概將近七八千億"},{"start":150.903,"end":165.639,"text":"波普我不曉得 這個要行政院看有多好的事你們報告寫 我看不懂金額不確定 那個就是波普的部分 現在還在討論所以你今年3月16號報行政院 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謝謝"},{"start":19.786,"end":38.426,"text":"主委好首先幾個問題先跟主委請教一下我想現在我們今天書面報告也特別寫到推動全民智慧生活圈善用我國在全球半導體及資通訊產業的優勢將AI從尖端科技的一個領域當中有效轉化普及"},{"start":39.066,"end":57.581,"text":"國民生活息息相關的一個面向促進整個科技驅動社會的一個全面進步交通醫療參儲製造為優先的一個示範生活領域先請問一下主委這四個領域的具體AI服務項目是什麼"},{"start":58.622,"end":78.298,"text":"譬如說我昨天才找我們的交通部跟經濟部一起來討論因為我們要推動智慧交通的話就是中央部會跟地方政府要一起合作在智慧化的十字路口的監控避免行人在路口因為駕駛的不小心"},{"start":80.86,"end":102.823,"text":"那行人因為在斑馬線上有這個優先權他就很放心的也不會去注意到可能有一些車輛會撞過來這種東西如果有AI的監控那主動的警告那也許就可以避免這種不必要的這種傷亡具體可以實際在運用在交通上的部分上大概有沒有一個期程"},{"start":103.886,"end":123.625,"text":"齊成啊,我們希望今年就可以開始因為智慧交通我們談論已經很久了細節有一部分已經有在落實但是能不能再廣泛的能夠有新的一個所謂的智慧交通運用在交通上我剛剛講就是新的就是因為入口的監控的影像所以我需要齊成"},{"start":124.886,"end":148.22,"text":"啟程是我們今年才要啟動啟動是實際去運用還是啟動?實際運用,不是研發啟動規劃研發我就擔心了啦不是不是那因為台中我們製造業也是非常非常的蓬勃那製造業的一個AI部分這個部分的運用呢可不可以跟我們說一下抱歉那個委員再問一次"},{"start":148.971,"end":171.401,"text":"我说制造业在台中蓬勃发展台中啊对对对对我们这个部分也很关切那AI的运用能够帮助制造业的部分能不能帮我们说一下在制造业我们一直谈就是智慧制造但是过去在智慧制造其实不会谈到说我们要用AI用云端的服务因为这在通常他的资料都非常的宝贵"},{"start":172.081,"end":195.791,"text":"但是未來我們發展的方向是希望說我們即使連製造業我們都希望能夠發展AI的模型因為曉得這個公司他沒有辦法自己去發展模型自己去發展智慧製造的雲端服務的系統所以他要仰賴我們要做主權AI確保這個資料的安全性那他自己在訓練他的這個優化的模型的時候他的資料不必送出來"},{"start":196.551,"end":215.027,"text":"這個其實我們之前也談論過就是希望說你們的這個AI部分還是要跟產業多溝通產業的需求嘛像我們看到有些認為資料庫非常的一個謹慎他可能就不希望運用雲端的部分那小的他沒有辦法建置這樣子一個大型成本的話"},{"start":215.247,"end":227.863,"text":"他可能就會覺得他先使用雲端他沒有關係所以我覺得中小企業跟大型企業有一些分門別列為他們來做一個客製化這部分能不能在未來能夠一起來納入呢"},{"start":229.09,"end":248.156,"text":"有,這個策略我們其實已經存在了今年在行政院科技顧問會其實也有這樣的一個決議,其中的一項就是要幫這些中小型的企業來打造主權AI的模型來協助他們把這個供應鏈把它串起來"},{"start":249.196,"end":276.35,"text":"當然我們剛剛也有委員提到AI部分目前的一個語料非常的堪憂但是我們對你有信心也希望這個部分能夠再加強那趕緊能夠運用在這個製造業上但是你剛剛說目前還在研發當中對不對我是說幫助製造業的部分製造業的部分是那個主權AI的模型還要建立但是這個模型就是各行各業的這個模型都需要對啊"},{"start":277.33,"end":289.786,"text":"包含金融现在已经在做了就是金管会那什么时候制造业可以帮忙那制造业也是一样各行各业其实需求都不一样我知道所以你在建制当中嘛"},{"start":290.849,"end":314.406,"text":"對 但是我們希望預算 我知道嘛但是你要給我一個期程 你要有信心啊你有信心我們給你預算才可以啊不要說我給了錢結果你們做不到嘛因為我一直在講說你要跟產業來做一個溝通協調我認為其實預算的審核啊這就是立法委員最神聖的一個我們該有的一個任務但這也是我們跟你談判的籌碼"},{"start":315.266,"end":334.842,"text":"你要怎麼樣讓產業更好要怎麼樣讓產業能夠得到這個預算直接的回饋這你要答應我我才會想想我下一步要怎麼做像我們在這個大健康領域健康照護的部分我們去年跟衛福部就啟動了現在效果很好我知道那我們今年要啟動就是智慧交通"},{"start":335.603,"end":343.689,"text":"那希望智慧制造如果預算通過的話我們今天希望也可以開始啟動那後面你能夠啟動機場跟產業再繼續溝通呢"},{"start":347.741,"end":374.862,"text":"我剛說產業的需求啊我們跟產業的溝通其實隨時都在進行那國會負責的是園區的產業經濟部負責的是所有其他產業我們是合作就是橫向聯繫啦這個部分那另外要跟你請教的就是你有一個啊點亮全民科學火花我們提升這個探究的這個實作體驗嘛也就是我們科普列車串聯全島嘛對不對我一直在講嘛啊來到台中嘛"},{"start":375.851,"end":397.683,"text":"那台中還有科博館嘛那是不是能夠多辦幾場嘛對啊台中這個部分呢你還沒有給我台中我們去年還特別優待都加了我說去年啊去年是去年啊今年是今年啊今年我們會在新烏路站還有嗎要不要加可是我們的預算"},{"start":404.805,"end":414.991,"text":"要加的話你不是剛剛說希望我幫你預算你現在不用給我一些幫忙我幫你你幫我啊你幫我是幫我們台中市不是幫我個人我不會去參加"},{"start":417.968,"end":437.191,"text":"我們盡量遵節預算多辦一場好了我們是希望說啦其實有時候不只是多場次啦孩子能夠多受惠的人數能夠增加也是我們的考量因為畢竟你的東西提供的蠻不錯的但是我們每次看人數有限"},{"start":438.352,"end":463.085,"text":"當然人數變多的時候有可能會影響到品質我都知道那是不是能夠兼具到這樣子的一個平衡點這是我今天要拜託的 好不好好 謝謝會長再來諸位 國科會自2022年一直從科技部改制以來針對專題研究的計畫審查制度進行調整強調降低主持人過往績效的一個配分提高研究計畫內容的一個重要性"},{"start":464.145,"end":490.587,"text":"我們現在期望促進學術創新並提升年輕學者的一個競爭機會質疑政策方向是利益良善但是本席關切的是制度調整以後是否已經實質轉化為研究績效跟審查公平性的一個提升而非只是制度的一個改變而已改制前後新進主持人啊他的一個申請通過率有沒有提升"},{"start":492.733,"end":512.739,"text":"你說申請通過率啊通過率跟這個無關通過率是依照我們的預算我們現在也關心就是新晉主持人他五年內的部分新晉主持人新晉的研發人員他們提的這個計畫通過率是比較高的我們是有特別優待"},{"start":515.946,"end":540.723,"text":"新進的話大概80%80%當然不可能全部你隨便納錢也會投當然啦也要看它有沒有意義嘛那有沒有你過往提高嘛我這是很高啦因為一般的即使很厲害的那個有經驗的也才不過六成左右而已啦那新進人員我們是保障他是比較那你有感受到首次的申請者啦這個核定的比例是否有顯著的成長"},{"start":542.861,"end":566.418,"text":"合併的比例首次的申請是首次我現在講的首次就新進的他大概是八成左右因為他如果沒有他如果寫的計畫都不好要確捏要確捏確確的意思就是要確定你的數據要確定啦要確捏不要隨便陰影我欸八成對我這個"},{"start":570.285,"end":575.139,"text":"改之後的一個資深研究者跟中生代的一個學者計劃通過率的情形呢"},{"start":577.401,"end":602.56,"text":"改造後改制後改制後不是改造改制後我們整個改制中生代的跟資深的他們的計畫通過率的執行他的通過率執行為何現在沒有這樣區分因為我們現在所謂的我們希望能夠改善改善就是說改善新進的但是我也要關注一下資深跟中生代的對不對"},{"start":604.794,"end":633.533,"text":"应该计划通过率这个比例应该没有什么改变没有什么改变因为我觉得资深的学者通常拥有较多的一个研究资源过去通过率的一个自然当然会比较高但在改制后我们希望国科会调整的配分的一个权重能够理应让年轻的学者通过率能够提高然而这个是否导致对中生代学者处境会不会有一些相对不利这个我们要关切"},{"start":634.053,"end":660.785,"text":"好這個我們會關切其實這一部分的這個包含申請計畫或申請獎勵補助等等我們是各個學門我們會一起來討論怎麼樣去做改善並不是我們一廂情願就把制度改了我們當然要照顧新生代啦但是也要注意那個平衡那我想那你剛剛說的這些是否存在學門之間的一個差異"},{"start":662.079,"end":686.567,"text":"有可能會有學門之間的差異所以國科會建立定期的一個檢視評估制度然後確保各學門審查標準以及資源的配置公平性我認為這很重要這我也同意所以我們會持續來關注這個我想整個制度的一個調整後計劃平均產出是否提升論文的品質或者是記轉專利的結果是否具體量化可以讓我們來檢視一下"},{"start":688.286,"end":715.105,"text":"我們當然是希望像委員講的希望他計劃的成果成果它的價值它的效益可以提升這個是我們的目標對啦那是目標啦我現在是想說制度調整以後啦整個計劃平均的產出然後還有技術移轉專利成果有沒有目前的量化資料可以讓我們參考一下量化資料可以給委員可以你累囉你累囉都正常一個題目要講兩次喔"},{"start":716.444,"end":743.636,"text":"國科會在這個學門之間資源配置的一個差異方法方面是否已經建立了長期的追蹤跟成效的評估機制我們希望能夠這樣子來掌握不同領域的一個計畫對於學術跟社會實質的一個影響那最後我要講的就是說請問主委國科會是否掌握近五年來女性主持人申請跟通過率的一個變化是否已經達到性別的平衡"},{"start":745.235,"end":774.275,"text":"我們應該都有掌握你要不要有嗎平衡好讓你回答大概都在一個跟委員報告女性主持人的計畫申請率通過率我們都有在關注那這幾年大概都沒有忽高忽低都在一個平衡的狀態好我掌握的部分目前都有相對的一個平衡但是我想跟主委探討的是女性計畫主持人她有一個多重角色家庭主婦媽媽上班族請問這些多重角色是否會影響她的通過率"},{"start":775.396,"end":799.316,"text":"不會 其實我對女性有特別優待的可以說一下嗎這我們各學門大家都有共識如果是在計畫的邊緣你是會優先通過女性計畫主持人的計畫那其他的當然就是照同儕審查我想針對女性計畫的主持人她們在生育的期間提供的一個支持我認為這不是優待"},{"start":800.585,"end":826.374,"text":"這個是一個知識他們在這個部分上有女性的專案計畫生育計畫這些措施我想請問一下主委當女性主持人她在生產計畫延長的一個計分年限後退回到一般性計畫有沒有辦法銜接上你們有沒有去了解從生育計畫延長計分的年限退回到一般"},{"start":827.335,"end":846.241,"text":"我們有氣氛嗎他不可能一直都在生嘛他會回歸到一般計劃他的銜接上有沒有困難跟其他女性的一般性的計劃通過率是否一樣不要小看這個產後有什麼產後還有可能有憂鬱的問題"},{"start":848.286,"end":868.553,"text":"產後也要支持你說計劃審查再打分數這個他原本我們現在不是有關心他生產的時候他的計劃有可能會延後嗎那我們給予一些支持的一些方案了嘛對不對那他回歸到一般的一般性計劃了他沒有要生了那產後的一個支持呢"},{"start":869.537,"end":896.525,"text":"我們對女性計畫主持人的生育的支援計畫是從她懷孕到小孩3歲這段期間所以這個部分上有沒有去了解她在這個產後以後0到3歲她的一般性的計畫通過率然後還有她的支持給予幫助以後她的通過率如何這個我們沒有特別去注意啦我今天會提到這個啦不好意思"},{"start":898.496,"end":916.201,"text":"比較龜毛啦但是我認為有必要性我關心的是如果國科會沒有這樣的統計數據就單純看大面相會發現男性跟女性的計畫主持人通過率是差不多的男性憂鬱的現在也蠻多的女性你說什麼男性也會有憂鬱的男性憂鬱喔也會有"},{"start":919.827,"end":936.205,"text":"好 我們一起加油照顧小孩照顧小孩是兩個都會有用但是我發現還是女生心事比較細膩我們要多給予一些關心但這方面我要講的是男性跟女性的計畫主持人通過率是差不多但這"},{"start":937.186,"end":955.682,"text":"這其實會掩蓋了一些生育對女性主持人她的科研的軌跡失職的影響也無法檢驗國科會的支持措施是否真正改善因生育中斷科研所造成的結構性處境所以我認為需要這樣子的一個數據"},{"start":957.826,"end":986.228,"text":"謝謝委員這一點我們以前沒有特別注意不過既然委員有提出來我覺得我們可以來研議一下所以最後我要講的是女性計畫主持人在生產後有沒有辦法銜接上一般性計畫剛剛你說0到3歲嘛對 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謝謝主席 我們請局長來 局長請"},{"start":10.6,"end":28.887,"text":"其實明天是我們針對國防的特別條例有朝野協商那在朝野協商部分當然有跟秦珍相關的部分因為這次的國防特別條例也都有所以這也跟國安局的業務是相關那我在這邊是很誠摯的希望我們所有在野黨的委員們能夠一同來參與這樣子的討論就算"},{"start":31.604,"end":47.294,"text":"這一次的協商沒有共識但下一次我們可以慢慢的一起摸索出對國家有幫助的道路所以我在這邊還是誠摯的呼籲特別是我們年輕的這個在野黨的委員們我相信他們也很願意跟我們來做討論那也是很誠摯的希望明天有這個機會"},{"start":48.254,"end":62.365,"text":"那再來想要請教一下這個局長關於政協會的部分在前夕政協會前夕中共突然有這個突破突然突然設定了這一個無限高的禁飛區40天你有沒有得到政官的資訊你覺得這是持續性作戰戰備的態勢嗎"},{"start":64.426,"end":75.172,"text":"這次劃設的空域保留區,大概是在江浙外海的空域時間是3月28日到5月6日我們注意到劃設有五個區塊,範圍蠻大的,時間也蠻長的判斷在軍事上可能有點用來反制外國的軍機在該空域的活動狀況"},{"start":84.797,"end":102.503,"text":"當然外國有能力軍機在當地活動主要還是以美國為主另外在政治上因為時間剛好截止到川習會的前一個禮拜所以也有可能在這段時間來測試跟試探美國在相關空域活動的一個狀況也做一些政治上的一個"},{"start":103.563,"end":130.414,"text":"試水溫跟試碳好 謝謝局長那第二個問題就是剛才我們不斷地在討論的關於就是共諜案很多不管是國會的有些是可能是在國會的助理有些可能是在行政的機關甚至是最高的機關那都有那我們一直想問的是說有沒有機會讓助理能夠有機會能夠接受這個安全查核但是需要有法源那這個法源的部分我們其實有提出的這個國家機密"},{"start":131.874,"end":154.415,"text":"保護法第十四條的修正草案那在裡面呢我還是要強調我們還是希望說有行政院 由行政院院板提出來一個跨部會的一個算是一個條例因為我們自己思考的方式可能沒有那麼完整那其實我們有邀請這個法規局立法院的法規局也來去做相關的討論那他不是只有政府人員"},{"start":155.436,"end":175.921,"text":"它已經擴大到約聘人員到這個國防的廠商廠商的承包人員到任何涉密的人員一般民眾它不是要傷害人民的權利而是說如果你想要接觸這些機密你就先要得到這些核可所以它是權利而不是義務而不是傷害到人民的這些權利"},{"start":176.521,"end":199.377,"text":"這個有點不太一樣 為什麼說美國他們拿到安全合格視為是一種榮譽就代表說你的忠誠有被合格了那你的財務紀錄 你的犯罪紀錄 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很多委員都在提醒這一點好不好 儘快一下 好 謝謝謝謝 兩位請回"}]}},{"id":"168254","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168254","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/70d8fc05dcd8abb04f9de2b37022d427a7afadf2dd1952ecce185cfc45202cc0fac1ac43399a4bcb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴瑞隆","委員發言時間":"11:19:15 - 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接下来有请赖若文委员咨询好 谢谢召委请工部长跟方董事长好 请工部长跟方董事长"},{"start":15.882,"end":31.662,"text":"部長 上個禮拜在連假第一天又發生了中油大林場的大火這一次燒了16個小時 部長有瞭解到真正原因跟起火原因跟整個未來怎麼預防嗎"},{"start":33.679,"end":59.654,"text":"對 我有隨時都跟蹤說明一下吧 是什麼原因發生的包國炎 那麼首先很抱歉在高雄地區發生這樣一個火災發生的原因就是管線裡面有一個短管它是一個溫度計的一個短管接出來那這個接頭的部分鬆脫了那麼所以裡面管線裡面的油氣就沖出來"},{"start":60.816,"end":76.807,"text":"那這個沖出來的過程中呢可能是接觸到管線上的本身的一個高溫而產生這樣一個火災當然目前是做這樣一個研判啦還需要去做更具體的一個檢視我先問一下多久可以有一個完整的調查報告出來"},{"start":77.421,"end":92.986,"text":"因為還要做一些金像上的一個檢測初步調查結果是這樣嘛對不對 多久的時間可以有一個完整的調查報告目前是只是在初稿還沒有定稿就算檢測的部分確立以後才能確立正確的"},{"start":95.867,"end":114.655,"text":"可不可以給我們一週的時間這個計畫報告要出來部長從發生4月3號到那個我希望從4月3號開始起算一週內提出完整的一個調查報告以及未來如何預防這件事情再次的發生好嗎部長可以嗎4月3號一週4月3號後一週就是從4月3號發生後一週那現在已經4月10號了"},{"start":120.768,"end":148.354,"text":"現在4月8號了對就是我希望在4月10號的時候提出這一份完整的報告發生事件過後一週可以嗎可以再給我們多一點寬容的時間比如說下週一好不好好下週一下週一給一份完整的報告發生事故原因以及未來如何預防發生好那我直接先問一下董事長這樣的事情怎麼樣預防發生最近已經發生多起了包括林園的大火包括這邊的這樣的事件怎麼樣預防它再次發生"},{"start":151.289,"end":170.705,"text":"我個人看法就是說還是在於我們在災害預防上要去落實要去加強譬如說假設是真正是這個原因的話就應該對於這個突出的短管的部分要更把這個檢測的週期還更縮短來確定這個任何使用的時候都是一個正常情況"},{"start":170.865,"end":193.41,"text":"所以檢測的週期要再縮短 甚至於如果發現它是可能已經有一些需要更換的時候就要進出來做更換嘛 對不對不要等到了出狀況的時候才做嘛對 要做預防性的檢測部長跟董事長可不可以請朝這個方向好不好立油廠每年為整個台灣也付出相當多但是不要讓當地的居民承受到這樣的一個恐慌"},{"start":194.81,"end":209.836,"text":"燒16小時光周邊的居民是相當擔憂的包括空污的影響相當重大罰了500萬這還不是最大的損失而是整個所有對周邊居民的信任我希望經濟部門終於有在這件事情上面要痛定思痛這該"},{"start":211.697,"end":237.159,"text":"該加速去更換的該做的作為都要去作為不要讓他等到那麼久我下禮拜一等你們的最後的調查報告我也希望從那邊也提到你們該有的檢討措施不要每次都為了這些什麼鬆脫什麼東西然後導致不管是所謂的什麼油氣的這個我收到兩次市議會上市議會上我收到兩次你們的報告油氣洩漏甚至石油腦的一個引發的火警"},{"start":238.369,"end":252.727,"text":"無論什麼我認為這個在第一時間就應該更之前就應該預防做處理每年的公安的經費這麼多就是要做這件事情好不好我希望這都會影響到人民的一個信任跟信心我希望進一步跟中友要持續來做這樣的努力好不好"},{"start":253.851,"end":277.624,"text":"部長可以嗎 這請全力接下來要講了 其實中油的增資我當然是支持的 特別是政見但是我也再次提醒部長跟董事長中油的增資裡面也要增加更多的經費在做公安跟做環保這一塊我希望也看到你們的增資裡面對這一塊更加的重視而不是把區域的這些的外部的成本全部讓當地去承擔"},{"start":281.586,"end":301.895,"text":"我知道你年度預算裡面都會做啦針絲不見的做這件事情但是我講的只是希望你們更加的重視這個問題會增編啦好不好 增編的計畫你要讓大家知道就是我在支持你的預算的同時我不是只是在支持你承受了國家損失的虧損同時間我也要求你做更多的公安的一些要求我相信這也是所有立委們"},{"start":302.635,"end":326.047,"text":"願意共同支持的一個關鍵原因 如果我們給你更多的增資 但是你的公安意外 你說的還是常在發生的時候 這個跟落差會相當大我還是要提醒 如果你前面每一個多做一點點的這些的巡檢或多縮短它的期間的話 它對於整個後面的事件也許就不會發生這個不發生同時可以幫中油省下非常多的一些成本 不管是這個"},{"start":327.668,"end":352.804,"text":"損失的成本或者你停工的成本甚至於周邊的外溢出來這些的人民的不信任甚至於引發有可能引發抗爭的成本都大幅的降低我認為這個是一件很重要的事情好不好我希望經濟部跟中油這邊把這件事情是列為一個重要事項我不希望再看到類似事件不斷的在發生可以嗎可以好 部長好 謝謝好 再來我也請教一下先也請台電董事長上來"},{"start":353.524,"end":371.974,"text":"最近高雄市也發生了非常多的董事長請先休息台電也發生很多次的跳電的一個事件我認為這個部分要加強做一些預防跟應變包括我在鳳山在小港甚至於包括在大樹甚至於在前京區很多我要講的是"},{"start":372.734,"end":396.283,"text":"高雄是發電的一個大區就是不管是大林電廠南部火力發電廠到興達電廠我們也增加了很多不管是燃氣的等等的一些那李老師在自己發電的區域常常在發生一些跳電的事件而發生跳電之後可能電梯受損可能周邊居民非常不方便甚至有的停電的時間久的話可能連家裡面都受到很多的一些影響我認為這個台電要"},{"start":398.504,"end":414.563,"text":"更積極的去做一些改善來 董事長 曾董事長好 那個跟委員報告確實我們現在對於整個停電的狀況處理的速度都在加快那也在更新我們的舊的設備我先問一下為什麼會最近的停電的頻率增加了你現在選出來的這幾個新聞"},{"start":417.987,"end":443.439,"text":"我想第一個就是 如果是清民節少 那顯然就是外力我想說這個這個不是啦 這當然不是那個 這我請他們拿掉前面包括豐山 小港 包括大樹 包括淺金的我跟委員報告幾個事 第一個事情是就是那個雷雨影響是最近 就是這個整個春假期間雷雨影響那個是一個事情就有雷雨你看雷雨影響有沒有可能去"},{"start":444.399,"end":471.798,"text":"我們現在在處理就是因為大宿那有一根高壓的電線其實它是比較難進去啦但是這個我們會來想辦法怎麼樣改善這件事鳳山小港大宿跟前京這幾個是不是也請台電這邊也給我一個你們的說明好不好我難以忍受的是說高雄做一個發電的大區然後自己發電那麼多的量然後整天停電的事情頻繁這個是我很難接受的我跟委員報告就是我們其實那個因為"},{"start":474.78,"end":497.001,"text":"範圍大啦 那有些地方比較接近丘陵或什麼 那個我們會儘快來想辦法改善 那個大樹的累積其實是一個問題 我們這次有發現大樹累積我跟曾董事長講 這是一個感受的問題啦 如果我們發電量那麼多的時候而我們常常發生停電 而我們的改善卻沒有比人家來得更多的時候 那個心理感受是不好的我希望曾董事長把這個列為優先的項目 好不好 不要再"},{"start":498.141,"end":526.017,"text":"發電區多的地方頻頻發生停電最後一個我請教一下部長這個伊朗的部分放行船隻的亞洲有六個國家大概都能夠協調出來台灣有做這樣的努力嗎報告委員因為今天的消息是兩禮拜的停戰所有的船隻都可以通過那因為我們是跟卡達買的是大案價格所以那個船是卡達的船並不是我們的船好"},{"start":526.437,"end":540.699,"text":"所以我也希望未來當然這兩個停火我們希望有更好的消息啦但是停火後如果還是有那個狀況下我希望還是要持續的溝通讓我們這個船隻能散盡我們的各項的溝通能力好不好跟外交能力去努力去突破好嗎好 謝謝好 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謝謝主席 麻煩局長好 問問 早好 早我今天想focus在一個案子"},{"start":16.66,"end":37.15,"text":"徐春英的這個案子已經起訴那根據地檢署揭露的新聞稿跟起訴的附錄我這邊看第一個圖這個大概都從起訴書的附錄表摘出來的裡面確實是駭人聽聞包含涉犯的洗錢的金額接近三千萬元"},{"start":38.371,"end":57.526,"text":"包含呢自備三萬元兩張假的證明一張假的薪資轉單就可以貸款2697萬去買了一間房子自備三萬新台幣而已貸了2697萬那另外呢要透過三個政黨"},{"start":58.877,"end":84.673,"text":"去爭取中國人士擔任立委發展政治實質影響力另外協助中國人士取得台灣國籍不管是六改四或者一些戶籍放棄的簡化這都他接受的命令在裡面的對話內容都會看到那我這邊特別不去提哪幾個政黨我都認為被滲透的政黨也許是受害者看他的態度啦那另外呢中共的官員"},{"start":85.553,"end":112.329,"text":"用偽裝的偽造的理由入境長期在台灣發展組織所以這是一個不擇不扣也許起訴的條文是反滲透法但對國安的威脅它就是一個中共的網絡諜報組織我第一個先請教局長你們看徐春英這個起訴書的內容當然國安局掌握全國的情攻你們看到了什麼有沒有什麼該提醒國人的我想"},{"start":115.373,"end":138.935,"text":"因為這個案子在司法偵辦但是我早上也在跟媒體朋友說明我原先看到所有共諜案幾乎都是我們發動偵辦的那有事證之後再移送到 花漢鎮對 再移送到司法機關來進行偵處還有進入起訴的過程所以大概整個過程我們都知道案件的內容你不便透露我的意思是說像這樣的案子其實"},{"start":140.356,"end":169.194,"text":"讓人家很害怕他已經發展到國會裡面來了他已經發展到實質政治的組織甚至於把所有中國籍的配偶的組織網絡串起來坦白講這對這些中國籍的配偶是很不公平的他在監控他們看他們的言行有沒有符合母國的要求他們的祖國的要求可是對台灣就產生實質的民主的破口所以我說國安局在這個案例上"},{"start":170.219,"end":194.439,"text":"你看到是個案還是通案?我想個案值得重視那主要還是通案的部分大概中共對台的這些勤工的部署跟滲透它都是有系統性的、有計畫性的、有針對性的挑選特定的對象那在針對這特定對象去發展它背後的一個網絡那所以這部分這個個案顯示大概就是這樣的一個中共對台勤工的一個手段"},{"start":195.854,"end":204.685,"text":"陸委會的副主委梁文傑說大家應該想讀這一個起訴書但是因為起訴書目前地檢署公佈的是新聞稿、摘要跟一些附錄"},{"start":206.089,"end":232.757,"text":"我認為官局可以建議這一個陸委會在符合法律的要求部分人士去識別化全文的PDF檔應該要提供出來我覺得這個是如果看到那個內容他的對話跟中國的壽命還有他拿到錢去做什麼事情還有中國籍配偶怎麼對待中國籍配偶其實看到的是一個不只是長臂管轄而是實質對台灣的一個破壞"},{"start":233.857,"end":250.914,"text":"所以你看到這個對話內容大概是從他的腹錄摘出來的那我們看到他相關的人物像孫憲是他們的民革上海市委以及他算是統戰部的高階的人員另外楊文濤是中國民政部的其實也是官員"},{"start":251.815,"end":271.817,"text":"然後呢,鍾景明呢,是促進會的會長,這個是同案的被告他是一個兩岸婚姻協調促進會的會長,有一個組織名稱在那邊那李貞秀也在那邊提到,有關詢問接班可能性以及相關的事情,這都在起訴書裡面那另外有一個污點證人叫羅穎"},{"start":273.098,"end":300.117,"text":"那這個我不知道名字有沒有保護起來啦他是徐春英的友人所以我們看到這相關的網絡呢我們就有一個體會我們看下一張其實我個人認為被共諜滲透的其實基本上我們先看他是受害者當年的蔣介石旁邊的共諜何其多連他的打字員秘書那個Holiday英國的一個作者寫的一個他被滲透的其實是非常嚴重"},{"start":301.218,"end":319.704,"text":"每一次他要幹嘛 中共都會先知道所以蔣介石可以說是中共滲透的受害者只是他採取 那我們怎麼判斷他是不是受害者呢他們甘願被他滲透 他沒有他會反制 他會逮捕 甚至於槍決可以耶所以做得過頭了變白色恐怖 那是另外一件事情也就是說"},{"start":320.464,"end":337.25,"text":"被共諜滲透不管是歷史上的蔣介石或者國內的主要政治組織或者政府機關基本上只要你不是甘願被他滲透的都可以把它定義為受害者我認為任何政黨政治人物都一樣但是你要有作為我被滲透了"},{"start":338.75,"end":359.195,"text":"檢舉移送法辦建立國安法制去把他逮捕出來你對共諜的滲透深惡痛絕那這個是受害者如果被滲透了還去阻撓國安法律的嚴謹或者被滲透了還幫被抓到的人講話那這是不是受害者就未必了會進到第二種類別"},{"start":360.615,"end":383.693,"text":"不知情卻動手協助共諜滲透的這有點像在地協力者但是如果知情還協助共諜滲透的那你根本就是共諜本人我不知道局長對我這樣的分類看法有什麼想法尊重委員有一個邏輯在尊重委員的一個分類不要隨便說這個誰誰誰被滲透了他就是共諜不一定因為從歷史上從蔣介石一直到現在"},{"start":385.134,"end":409.587,"text":"被滲透當然是敵人想要攻破的碉堡重要的是被滲透人士或組織的態度如果你被滲透了你認為應該強化應該隔絕那大概是受害者如果被滲透了還掩護他你可能是不知情的協作者如果你被滲透了發現你還幫他滲透幫他發展幫他講話維護那這可能就共諜本人了所以在這一個徐春英的案件我最後要問的一個邏輯是能夠"},{"start":413.214,"end":434.686,"text":"成就他的工作的就他滲透發展組織受上海那邊相關的命令甚至於地下會對兩千大概快三千萬這些過程當中能夠成就他的成績工作成績的人或政黨算是什麼角色有沒有在偵辦中"},{"start":436.371,"end":454.089,"text":"對,我想個案我不適合公開的討論,包括剛剛在機密報告當中也有委員提出一些共諜案,那我在那種場合比較會多做一些說明。那因為這案子已經在偵辦過程當中,那大概他都還是有一個網絡相關的案官關係人。那我換個方式問,徐孫英的起訴書是不是案件的全貌?"},{"start":460.469,"end":489.108,"text":"我不評論檢察官公布的一個狀況這一個部分我覺得這三種分類協力者典型的還繼續協力當然有法律問題如果是協助者知情而且協助的而且甚至於位居廟堂或者是位居高院不管什麼政黨我覺得該辦就要辦甚至該揭露就要揭露這個其實是對2300萬人的生存是很重要的一件事情我最後請教一下"},{"start":490.009,"end":508.111,"text":"在台灣的國防預算或國防特別預算或對美軍購,我推整了大概近半年來,也不到半年,近四、五個月,中國不管朱鳳蓮、張小剛、張晗,甚至習近平本人、毛寧等等,他針對的發言,其實不意外啦。"},{"start":508.832,"end":526.918,"text":"中共當然反對台灣國防預算反對國防特別預算反對對美軍購每次都講一堆啦他不講他自己的國防預算每年增加7%到8兆他也不講他每天用軍事威脅台灣他卻指著台灣說你要武裝自己這裡不對那裡不對就是"},{"start":527.518,"end":543.15,"text":"流氓在恐嚇別人刀槍都握在手上然後防衛自己的人拿起盾牌說你武裝自己呢什麼以武謀獨啊什麼的他的反對態度其實非常明確不意外也不是新聞我要請教局長的"},{"start":544.031,"end":560.722,"text":"就你們目前掌握中共如何遂行他的反對他反對嘛他反對台灣最好你都沒有國防預算嘛國防特別預算越少越好最好沒有嘛對美軍共每次都反對嘛還制裁要對台軍售的那些企業或者是實體好那我現在請問中國從口頭的反對"},{"start":568.067,"end":588.352,"text":"到實質運作讓他這樣的意志可以遂行他有沒有具體的執行的策略有有有這部分剛如美林委員也有在提問那我大概的說明就是說中共對台的政策大概一般都是合戰兩手一方面透過軍事的施壓來說造兵戰的氣氛讓台灣民眾心裡感到恐慌"},{"start":588.792,"end":608.551,"text":"但另外一方面他要透過一些兩岸的一些交流交往來推宣他所謂中國主導的兩岸和平以及這個中國主導兩岸和平所外溢出來的所謂的和平紅利來進行一些撕毀那用這個來鬆動那台灣對於軍購案的支持那另外也利用這樣子所謂兩岸存在這種合同的"},{"start":609.271,"end":628.89,"text":"聲音來弱化美國對於台議題的介入跟立場所以它有兩個目的一個是分化台灣內部那一個是分化台美的合作那這部分我想我們現在又在討論這個國防預算的部分那中共這方面的操作手法這一陣子看起來有比較加強一些操作那你們有沒有應對的方法"},{"start":630.209,"end":646.358,"text":"你讓情報掌握是一件事情嘛那你也講得很客氣嘛其實他們的反對在台灣他遂行的方法很多種啦民眾也都看得很清楚那如果踩到法律的紅線那是歸法律主義但在政治上的運作有沒有應對的方式"},{"start":646.778,"end":671.483,"text":"對 基本上我們特別在揭露的是中共對台的統戰的策略跟手法那剛剛在跟委員說明的也是把重點放在這個部分那來讓大家知道說我們可能國人在進行兩岸交流過程當中可能要注意到中共的這些推動交流過程背後還是有一個政治上跟統戰上的一個我最後請問你好 蒙哥馬利來台灣參加那個陳冠廷的研討會嘛"},{"start":672.563,"end":689.255,"text":"那他有提到如果持續阻擋這樣的國防預算不管特別預算或國防預算對川普政府來講他只看結果他可能會有一個collective就是他會有一個綜合性的打擊等於對台灣的處罰你自己都不重視自己的安全了"},{"start":690.322,"end":709.149,"text":"那你展現態度是這樣子那對川普政府來講他要做取捨或者做所謂的懲罰你們掌握的情報是什麼對這部分主要是我們在夜報過程當中有提到美國現在強調的還是以實力來追求和平所以也不斷的在鼓勵各個區域我們加強國防的投資那建構起"},{"start":710.71,"end":738.533,"text":"台灣國內持續被杯葛那你假如說台灣自己在這個部分比較沒有一些積極的作為的話那你當然就會弱化了人家願意來支持台灣的一個基本的立場那再邀請台灣參加雙多邊的一些軍事或安保合作議題的話也比較會質疑台灣在自己努力所投資的這個國防預算的部分那可能沒有達到大家的期待只會造成區域聯防會有一個破口變成安全網絡的一個破口這個等於是對國家全體人民的懲罰"},{"start":739.293,"end":765.589,"text":"那對於阻撓的實體它本身會做什麼樣的動作嗎?有沒有消息?這個部分基本上川普政府還是不斷地強調對台軍售是他們一貫的一個政策那我應該也注意到在去年年底所宣布的那個對台軍售案應該是史上最高後續還會有所以美方是一直希望台灣在這個部分能夠加強對自己的國防投資你提到後續還會有是before或after"},{"start":766.98,"end":787.749,"text":"對啊 那時間上當然就看台美溝通的結果跟後續的一個規劃那我剛剛也跟其他委員在做說明就今年來講 包括日本國防預算增加3.7% 韓國增加7% 菲律賓增加14%那大概都有呼應到川普政府這種以實力追求和平的一個基本的調適時間關係 我們其他部分我們可以私下交流好 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我請國科會吳承文主委有請主委"},{"start":14.836,"end":40.529,"text":"主委好 上一位吳思瑤委員提到說明年的國科會的預算那我在這裡要同樣表達我們非常支持我們的科研預算要持續的成長那我們也要拜託國科會可以多跟立法院裡面不同黨派的委員溝通當大家都在討論說我們的科研業務應該要做得更好做得更多的時候我們同樣要給予預算的支持那因為今年是迎來台灣75年以來最少降雨"},{"start":43.47,"end":63.106,"text":"那麼所以說整個國家對於水的節水跟調度不再關注那同時國人也在關心那這個水減少會不會影響到我們科學園區的用水那麼因為我們看到的現在水庫的量以我們新竹以南的水庫流量來說也已經甚至是低於我們2021年當時"},{"start":65.168,"end":89.363,"text":"遭遇到是百年大旱那这几天还好下雨所以我们水库的水有进账我们新竹的宝山水库蓄水量现在回升到31%那么宝山二水库也是回升到34%那么新竹科学园区又是我们国家科学园区里面重中之重大家就很担心说这个目前我们这个供水量有没有影响到产业的使用"},{"start":90.168,"end":117.278,"text":"目前的狀況就算穩定下來我們在上個禮拜其實還蠻擔心的那經過這幾天的降雨就算有緩解了再加上說政府過去幾年在這個珍珠川計畫我們在這個聯同館的建置那以及我們未雨綢繆我們現在在新竹的海淡廠的建設台南的海淡廠的建設都如火如土在進行當中"},{"start":118.158,"end":133.878,"text":"所以今年如果我們度過這個難關之後明年就會比較沒有這樣的這個疑慮了對沒錯因為我注意到包括我們國科會我們內政部我們水利署其實對於這個用水特別是我們用水也要來可以支持產業"},{"start":134.699,"end":140.024,"text":"因為台灣半導體產業全世界都是關係著命脈全世界在關心我們台灣的一條水管有沒有辦法來支援產業所以說這個我們其實這幾年都一直在做相關的韌性的供水那麼我們現在在做這些措施包括剛剛講到的我們珍珠串計畫這個其實就是說我們水庫之間要可以互相的調度"},{"start":160.141,"end":188.386,"text":"這個我們以我們跟新竹科學園區最相關的就是桃園新竹這一段的水庫調度來講在這一次光是調度的成果就有3.9億噸那麼這相當於是一座石門水庫的量那如果以全國來說我們這次調度是8.1噸相當於是四座的石門水庫我剛剛還忘了講還有再生水我們跟地方政府各地的地方政府結合我們再生水的這個使用量已經現在達到四成了"},{"start":189.144,"end":208.679,"text":"再生水的使用量有達到40%再生水然後我們有淡海廠等等這些都是過去持續在做的所以我要講的是說我們要支持我們台灣的科技我們也要支持我們半導體的產業那麼供水其實是很重要的那這個是平常就要來投入平常就要來做像我們剛剛講到這個真初創計畫它其實是2017年開始投入的前瞻基礎建設計畫"},{"start":216.926,"end":231.532,"text":"這是前瞻建設那麼當年在立法院也是引起很大的風波很大的爭議啊當時在野黨一再的擋這一筆前瞻建設的預算甚至丟水球丟麵粉但是如果我們當年沒有做這個珍珠串計畫的話哇現在對於產業真的會有很大的影響所以說這個我們立法院"},{"start":238.194,"end":253.206,"text":"要多加的來支持那真的就是拜託國科會可以多多的跟國人說明多的跟立法院來說明那除了這個產業用水之外接下來我要關心的是我們台美太空的援助法案這個因為上個週五我們蕭美琴副總統她有發一個祝賀文她祝賀NASA的阿提米茲2號順利升空那這個是NASA相隔53年之後第二次我們有火箭載人飛往月球"},{"start":266.457,"end":274.461,"text":"那麼我們很關切這個美國的太空發展因為台美的太空合作對於台灣的太空發展來說至關重要嘛這個3月通過了一個美國跨黨派的參議員所通過的推動的台美太空援助法案這個是委員會審議通過還要有院會但是2月的時候美國的眾議院也納入了NASA重新授權法案"},{"start":289.369,"end":293.615,"text":"可不可以請教一下這個剛講的這個台美太空援助法案簡稱就是TASA法案對我們台灣台美的這個雙方在太空領域的合作有什麼樣的突破"},{"start":302.426,"end":331.003,"text":"這個突破是非常大的因為過去我們並不被承認是一個美國合作的國家所以以往我們太空中心是無法直接跟NASA來洽談任何的合作但是透過美國國會現在的支持我們已經確定通過這個法案以後我們的國家太空中心可以跟美國的太空總署可以進行直接的合作我們非常感謝美國政府"},{"start":332.755,"end":340.842,"text":"對 這個是 這個因為過去是有一個一中的這個原則之下所以說會有一些限制但是這次美國參議員他們主動提出這個法案這個推動的參議員許密鐵他這樣子說他說因為太空已經是保障國家安全跟加強海外聯盟的關鍵"},{"start":351.05,"end":356.512,"text":"那麼台灣的地理位置對美國的國防跟區域安全都是至關重要所以他們也希望美國跟台灣在太空領域要有專業的合作這個不只是維護我們國際的夥伴關係更是共同抵禦中國的惡意影響"},{"start":369.778,"end":382.024,"text":"所以這個不只是在科技上面對安全也是非常的重要那我們很樂見看到這一個突破那接下來我要花很短的時間就是要來提醒主委是我們也看到國內太空領域也因為有跟美國的合作"},{"start":385.026,"end":407.88,"text":"跟日本也有交流我們成長非常的快速那隨著我們的逐漸發展呢這個現有的太空發展法因為它是基本法形式的架構性立法它有可能會開始有所不足以日本為例日本也是逐漸的擴充他們太空的法治範圍2006年的時候日本有宇宙基本法"},{"start":408.821,"end":424.256,"text":"2016年的時候他們有宇宙二法宇宙活動法跟衛星遙測法2021年的時候日本訂定了宇宙資源法那麼在台灣我看到學界像例如說像清大的這個黃旭正教授也都在討論說隨著我們太空台灣的太空"},{"start":426.398,"end":449.326,"text":"技術也開始移轉現在我們太空的商業領域也相當的發達那這個可能在所有權在它的保險在它的融資例如說軌道活動的範圍規範等等都可能會需要更進一步法制上的完備所以就開始有討論說我們的太空發展法它是不是需要不定是修母法也許是子法是不是需要逐漸的來擴充這個部分主委你有沒有來關注到"},{"start":454.677,"end":483.013,"text":"謝謝吳委員的提議我想我蠻認同這個方向因為現在國際跟台灣要合作的機會越來越大了我們的太空產業也積極在發展當中所以我會請我們太空中心來結合我們相關的學界以及其他的部會我們一起來討論看看是不是有必要我們也來關注這個議題看看要不要發展這些執法"},{"start":483.413,"end":487.377,"text":"是我想學界討論相當熱絡那產業界其實也有一些表達在務實層面可能你們也要去收集例如說我們現在太空發展法17條就是在訂定這個如果有損害賠償責任的時候這個最高限額是新台幣50億元可是問題是我們的衛星這個主任旁邊知道嗎"},{"start":502.833,"end":518.617,"text":"就是差異很大,你有立方衛星啊,你有中大型衛星,那成本從兩三千萬的到這個幾十億的也都有,結果保險的理賠金額竟然沒有分成的標準等等的,也要麻煩你們跟學界跟產業界都來多方的收集意見,然後一起來討論好嗎?好,謝謝吳委員。好,謝謝主委,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"168265","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168265","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/70d8fc05dcd8abb0ed8fea40c297fb552d46cf68b7d09b753efd812baa63ee58d4923c6205c677e65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"11:25:09 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有請部長好 麻煩部長部長好那我想今天就是想要跟部長來討論有關於18歲公民權這件事情就是說我們針對這個18歲的年輕人其實依照我國的法規他已經承擔了很多的責任包含刑事責任 納稅義務"},{"start":30.439,"end":49.04,"text":"甚至男性還有這個兵役的義務那所以今天我想要請教跟部長來討論的地方就是說為什麼他們可以對國家負責卻不能決定國家的方向這也是許多的青年團體他們提出來的一個質疑以及他們的訴求因為這非常明確的是一個制度不對等的問題幫我按一下"},{"start":51.223,"end":67.388,"text":"好所以我們來看一下各國的公民權來比較就是說像美國呢在1971年的時候呢他們國會就已經通過也批准了就是在這個憲法第26號的修正案來這個讓這個18歲的有這個公民權那英國是在1969年"},{"start":68.948,"end":91.576,"text":"日本是2016年開始試用那韓國2019年那德國也是所以我看這個縱觀歐洲、美國、亞洲其實許多的國家都已經把這個權力下降到18歲可是我們台灣的門檻還是比較高所以我想就是說我們今天應該真的是要來討論一個更關鍵的問題就是世代正義"},{"start":93.274,"end":117.508,"text":"今天政府不管是教育制度、房價、勞動環境甚至國家財政影響最深的其實就是年輕人可是這些人沒有投票權可是我們一方面又鼓勵青年參與公共事務那同時呢我自己也看了一下我們2022年的修憲案其實當時的同意票是大於不同意票的所以其實人民的想法其實也是支持的只是因為修憲的門檻比較高"},{"start":120.089,"end":147.039,"text":"那我想請教就是說這段時間其實我們也看到許多的法律的學者他們其實雖然也有一些學者認為修憲才是正軌啦幫我按一下好不好好就是有一些學者還是認為修憲才是正軌可是也有一些學者像是李念祖老師林佳和老師胡柏碩老師還有這個顏爵安老師林明熙老師及陳新明嚴大法官等等的"},{"start":148.772,"end":164.017,"text":"這些老師呢其實都已經公開的表態支持修法特別是他們主張憲法的解釋不應該只拘泥於制憲當時的歷史背景而是應該在文藝允許的範圍之內採取綜合的歷史綜合採取歷史解釋體系以及目的性的解釋"},{"start":165.577,"end":190.248,"text":"那他回到憲法的130條他的文藝其實可以理解為立法者至少必須滿20歲賦予選舉權但這並不代表立法權立法者不能夠提早賦予所以如果從憲法第17條所保障的參政權來說呢其實提前將選舉權下修到18歲是在擴張基本權的保障而不是違憲啦換句話說18歲公民權基本上呢就是"},{"start":190.948,"end":206.532,"text":"不論是透過青年基本法或是休選辦法來實現在這樣子的解釋架構應該都是符合憲法精神所以我想要請教一下部長您的看法您認為我們是不是應該要把這些學者主張納入考量還是您認為說我們應該要如何來進行呢"},{"start":208.059,"end":231.134,"text":"報告委員 委員對於18歲公民權的努力大家都看得到但是我也要跟委員講說我不是憲法專家所以我們才會主張說有沒有可能在內政委員會或是說在大院裡面請各種不同的憲法學者來就有關於學界的意見因為第一個反對修法的人會覺得說它是一個憲法保留"},{"start":231.374,"end":249.16,"text":"必須要透過修憲才能夠把這個條件年齡限制放寬那另外的支持修法的意見就是剛剛張委員所說的部分那所以我是覺得說既然說有各種不同的說法的話我們不如就是在這個民意代表的機關裡面把是不是修憲或者是我認為只是不合憲"},{"start":250.12,"end":269.609,"text":"不能講說是違憲的部分做一下比較好的充分的溝通那如果溝通的結果大家有一定的共識的話我也會建議按照我們在112年的大院裡面所通過的青年基本法裡面的這個附帶決議裡面就是完備整個的這個體制上的修法的部分的話"},{"start":270.389,"end":281.561,"text":"然後也請大院來決定說是不是要把這個修憲程序把它完備那如果修憲也完備然後在那個憲法的解釋上大家也都在大院同意的狀況之下的話那對於這個選舉罷免法下修20歲的這個公民全到18歲那我們當然是樂觀其成"},{"start":290.25,"end":306.742,"text":"就是說如果我們只單純就現在因為18歲在民法上面或是有一些法律上面已經通過了那現在只要修選罷法就可以了我是覺得這好像是缺了一塊為什麼我們從112年或者是在上一次上一屆"},{"start":307.623,"end":334.455,"text":"大院裡面的全部的立法委員都通過修憲希望把公民權下降到18歲那只是後來在公民投票的時候功敗垂成那樣子的修憲程序如果我們現在就跳過去讓他覺得說在主張憲法保留的人恐怕批評的聲音會比較大所以我們認為說是不是可以在就完備這個法律的限制上面或者是修憲的限制上面在能夠做充分的溝通跟討論我想這樣會更圓滿"},{"start":336.956,"end":339.398,"text":"報告委員我想大家都知道這個憲法裡面就行政、立法、司法"},{"start":352.546,"end":369.435,"text":"也就是立法還有司法的單位他們也要主張在修憲上面的是不是18歲的公民權符合修憲的程序或者是現在就可以不用修憲就可以擴張解釋要有其他的單位都同意的狀況之下不是只有一個內政部同意因為我剛剛有提到我不是憲法的專家"},{"start":369.855,"end":388.995,"text":"了解了解我只是想要了解一下部長的態度啦但看起來是非常的正面啦那我也是希望說呼籲我們的主席啦希望我想我們應該是來召開公聽會啦廣大各種不同的聲音讓這樣子的立法呢可以真的是得到大家的共識啊然後這樣子的立法也才能夠回應到民間的期待謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168263","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168263","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/70d8fc05dcd8abb0f26cb8a34ff75648a7afadf2dd1952ecce185cfc45202cc09c8b0e28f4b914155ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱慧洳","委員發言時間":"11:48:06 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好那沒有關係我想認同的人應該是寥寥可數啦那不認同的人應該佔大多數為什麼不認同的人會佔大多數因為這是簡單的邏輯問題什麼叫做簡單的邏輯問題"},{"start":56.408,"end":59.192,"text":"就是說謝謝的前提要有吸收虧損問題是有吸收虧損嗎第二個問題就是吸收虧損的前提要有虧損所以這是很簡單的邏輯第一個就是說說謝謝的前提是吸收虧損"},{"start":72.009,"end":77.674,"text":"吸收虧損的前提是要有虧損問題是有虧損嗎很重要問三次有虧損嗎完全沒有虧損為什麼完全沒有虧損我可以舉證我可以舉證三個地方因為你們的油價呢其實是低賣高賣高賣的證據在哪裡就是你們是用7D 3B在計算油價的成本這是一個過高的估價所以高賣的證據在這裡"},{"start":98.812,"end":125.333,"text":"低賣的證據在哪裡三個證據第一個證據呢你們2017年就跟美國買油了然後呢2024年呢因為有一個叫做第三家輕拖流廠停產你們又更擴大的跟美國買油美國已經變成是我國石油來源的主力國家第三個證據是什麼證據你量多跟美國買然後美國又是一個價少的一個國家我們看這個圖看這個"},{"start":128.736,"end":149.609,"text":"紅筐圈起來的地方就可以發現美國的油價是遠低於布蘭特遠低於杜拜的油所以從這三個證據三個低買的證據一個高賣的證據我們可以得出一個結論什麼結論呢就是你們低買高賣你們是超收你們沒有虧損沒有虧損何來吸收虧損沒有吸收虧損"},{"start":153.371,"end":165.12,"text":"卓院長怎麼好意思請大家跟忠祐道謝呢我覺得反而是卓院長欠我們國人一句對不起吧因為你誤導國民根本沒有所謂的虧損是有超收的問題那請問一下董事長你對我的推論認同嗎"},{"start":171.606,"end":196.923,"text":"我不完全認同等一下認同的地方在哪裡?不認同的地方在哪裡?提到的就是7D3B或者是最近提到的所謂4D6B這個計算的方式目前是用7D3B作為油價公司去計算所以中油公司按照油價公司計算本身沒有問題另外還有一個機制就是在雅林最低價也做了一個限制"},{"start":198.864,"end":216.836,"text":"因為我時間有限我先回答7D 3B如果沒有問題為什麼要去修正那就來到我第二個問題了一個公司要修正半年你們卓院長不是說你們是行動內閣嗎一個公司要搞半年才能夠把它弄好而且支票開半年半年能用好嗎不知道"},{"start":217.336,"end":222.978,"text":"所以現在呢 既然沒有問題為什麼要修正 那修正還要花半年你們左院長不是說你們是行動內閣嗎怎麼變成慢吞吞內閣 拖拖拉拉內閣那我呢 因為時間真的非常有限我接著想再請問你 請問你說這個增資 中友要增資 請問一下增資的財源從哪邊來"},{"start":240.586,"end":265.541,"text":"你們一手跟老百姓的身上超收有錢因為剛剛就是我說的低賣高賣你們是超收不是虧損請問一下你們一手從老百姓的身上扒皮那現在呢又要扒第二層請問是要從公務預算撥補嗎公務預算的來源不就是老百姓的稅收一隻羊到底要被你們撥幾次皮你們才會甘心請董事長回答"},{"start":266.281,"end":278.151,"text":"首先這個增資的部分跟這個吸收政策吸收金額沒有關係增資預算是為了加強天然氣所有的建設計畫的韌性計畫的建設"},{"start":281.434,"end":307.173,"text":"這是第一個原因第二個原因對於中油公司過去的累積虧損去做一個填補為了這個目的跟這個政策吸收本身沒有直接的關係我覺得你要爭執的前提是要確認你們有沒有隱喻你們已經是負債比92%已經快接近破產了你還爭執那就如同早上的委員問你們的到時候錢拿不出來請問中油要何去何從他的命運會如何的悲慘"},{"start":308.234,"end":311.916,"text":"那我這邊要請董事長給我幾個數字因為我就是覺得完全沒有虧損何來攜手直說我認為就是低賣高賣所以我現在這邊要請你提供幾個數字第一個數字就是到底你們跟美國買了多少"},{"start":324.421,"end":334.184,"text":"有然後付出的金額是多少然後他跟7D3B所計算出來的金錢落差是多少因為這個金錢落差就可以顯示出說是一個超收所以可不可以請董事長給我這個數據那第二個就是說可能你們要先確認好銀額才能夠有增值計畫所以可不可以給我你們的銀額 盈餘是多少然後根據這樣的盈餘你們提出所謂的增值計畫這是我這邊的訴求"},{"start":352.709,"end":377.051,"text":"我想这个数据我们可以提供但是我想再做个说明中东事件这个期间不管是7D3B或者4D6B这个增加的幅度到达70%但中油公司在国内的售价器材的售价只有增加17%所以可以很想象的我们的售价是没有足够反映这些进口原油的成本"},{"start":378.371,"end":388.354,"text":"你們跟美國買的就是綠線綠線就是跟橘線還有紅線有明顯的落差所以你們的經由成本就是低這才是我說的低價收高價賣你們有超額你們有超收所以假設"},{"start":394.756,"end":402.347,"text":"假設 我說的是假設你們有吸收虧損你們也只不過是把平常跟人民所超收的拿來這邊憑義有加而已這本來就是政府的責任啦這是我這邊的看法"},{"start":409.333,"end":436.15,"text":"WTI以最近來講它是比布蘭特還要高的所以不一定這些指標要不一定是一定是怎麼樣它有時候有很多因素會忽高忽低我知道你有你的說法但是其實人民會相信因為你們跳票或者是轉移焦點模糊焦點的行為太多了人民會相信嗎你要說服的不是我你要說服的是我們的國人2300萬的人民"},{"start":439.738,"end":447.383,"text":"好 這就請鍾游 方董事長再提書面報告那我記得總經理有來找我那游家公司還欠我啊還要記得啊好 謝謝再請鍾游這邊提供給我們資料 謝謝好 我們"}]}},{"id":"168262","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168262","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/70d8fc05dcd8abb0f14ad7ccc1a55c471607b63c45e41aa0ce185cfc45202cc0ac6f5c410dd661785ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"11:48:33 - 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在場委員 先進電席的政務機關首長 官員會長 工作夥伴 媒體記者女士先生有請國安局蔡局長跟法務部調查局的陳局長我們請蔡局長跟陳局長"},{"start":14.246,"end":33.435,"text":"好 謝謝主席 周委員長兩位局長好 共諜滲透管道樣太多樣防滲透 國安檢調需跟上最近網路上流行一個梗圖跟笑話他說如果共諜潛伏在民進黨立委身邊 那叫共諜如果潛伏在在野黨 那叫做不分區跟黨主席你覺得好笑嗎"},{"start":34.395,"end":56.374,"text":"我覺得一點都不好笑不過呢我覺得這可能反映出社會對於國會是否可能遭到滲透的一個關心我們往下看其實不是只有台灣各國的國會政府單位都會有他們間諜或者說共諜滲透的情況我們看到美國的聯儲它的共諜曝光了英國國會也有共諜那麼官員證實說這是中國是敵人"},{"start":59.477,"end":88.816,"text":"德國逮捕一名歐盟議會的工作人員指控他為中國從事間諜活動請問國安局對於這些中國或者說境外敵對勢力在其他國家國會的滲透狀況有所掌握嗎有 這也是我們跟國際友盟在交換情資跟經驗的一個重要的議題啦因為德國現在遭受到中國這種勤工的一個滲透越來越嚴厲那所以大家都有交換一些經驗好 但是因為我本身不是這個專業我們只會從電影跟小說上去瞭解往下看"},{"start":89.256,"end":118.411,"text":"就是說 供帖的滲透樣帶有什麼 用人員滲透就是說我們的工作同仁周邊是不是有人去接近他 請他帶走機密或者說利用這些工作人員的不正當關係去威脅他或者說利用政治獻金去提供要求對價來影響決策請問關於這些的間帖行動 國安局有去做一些初步的了解跟掌握嗎或者進一步我要請教一下陳局長 那如何防堵來 先請教蔡局長"},{"start":119.051,"end":141.532,"text":"我想基本上委員現在看到所有的共諜案都是我們的系統啟動正辦的才移送到司法機關來進行查處這是大概第一點說明那第二點說明是針對共諜的滲透的手法它非常的多元這也是為什麼我們在去年有公布共諜滲透的一個手法樣態的專題報告那它的目的就是希望國人能夠更了解到中共滲透的手法畢竟它滲透的對象"},{"start":141.732,"end":171.173,"text":"不是我們的公開的社會那因為國安局的職是情報跟反滲透可是陳局長不一樣了調查局要做偵辦對不對陳局長請過來來陳局長那你們也會去針對國安局所掌握的這些樣態也開始去進行反滲透的一些部限去調查去了解嗎我們會針對所有各方來的情資然後做那個跟案件有關的這些調查那主要就是focus在我們法辦的各個構成要件的面向"},{"start":171.533,"end":193.815,"text":"好 這個說得比較抽象啦假如說譬如說舉例啦譬如說你們調查局的聯絡國會的聯絡人偶爾來中嘉賓的國會辦公室看一看有沒有共諜潛伏是這樣嗎不會不會這樣子當然也不會你們的調查的時候一定不是這麼的粗糙但是我的意思是說雖然我們蔡局長說到過去有公布這些樣態但是國會啊我們自己本身我們也提高警覺但是我們不曉得該如何做"},{"start":194.355,"end":220.687,"text":"但是我們又不能請我們的監督對象比如我們監督行政院我不能請證書來給我指導啊我不能請調查局來給我指導啊為什麼因為你是我們的行政上的督導對象是那我們國會要如何防範自己被滲透呢這個我是一個難題蔡局長是不是可以請你們回去去反映一下有沒有可能研究出一套方法提供適當的方式提供過來其實我個人認為啊公民團體第三方"},{"start":224.128,"end":239.58,"text":"是比較公正客觀他可以來跟國會跟國會的立法委員我們來共同合作辦論壇辦研討會研擬這些方向必要的時候我們透過自己的立法法制化這樣子來落實我們國會自己我們的一個防滲透的一個處置您覺得怎麼樣"},{"start":242.941,"end":256.94,"text":"我想這一部分剛剛委員也有一些意見我們有做一些想法的交流我想第一部分還是立法院這邊要有一些法治的規範那相關的行政單位比如說行政部門現在是由調查局來進行人員的安查"},{"start":257.841,"end":262.824,"text":"那第二點是相關的保防的宣教我們也很樂意來提供必要的一個協助那還是要有一些立法院的規範才有辦法讓所有的職工或助理來參加這樣的一個宣教而不是不定期的這種宣教因為人員是不斷的在流動"},{"start":279.335,"end":299.47,"text":"第三個是假如委員辦公室有特別關注這樣的問題的話那我們也曾經提供一些保防或反情報要注意的事項給其他的委員參考包括陳冠廷委員、陳俊宇委員跟林俊憲委員所以委員辦公室有需要的話我們可以在沒有法治規範之前先提供一些資訊給委員來好 謝謝最後的兩個結論很快的結束就是就目前共諜深特政府機關跟國會的樣態"},{"start":300.791,"end":317.884,"text":"我希望你們有準備好的資料可以提供給我們參考另外國安局的掌握情況如何 系統上如何因應的對策您剛也提到了國會要加強自我的強化立法希望這樣的對策也可以提供給我們那在這裡有公開的請求 我們辦公室非常關注這個重要性絕對不亞於職場霸凌跟職場性騷擾一定要相同的程度來嚴正以待 您同意嗎"},{"start":324.95,"end":333.623,"text":"對,我認為要透過法制化的方式來處理這個問題因為中共的滲透是全面性的跟計畫性的好,謝謝,謝謝兩位局長,謝謝好,謝謝中委員,謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"168261","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168261","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/70d8fc05dcd8abb05ceabec80f3e6e1fb9b76447cfe948dbce185cfc45202cc05eb32057a8da52ca5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","委員發言時間":"11:38:48 - 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所以呢本席今天要求你立刻要提供給我相關的資料你也同樣是不可以給我是嗎今天在這個質詢台上面我接下來我還有另外一個所值"},{"start":249.879,"end":256.123,"text":"我可以提供但是我按照目前的規定我必須要經過行政院總之我現在曉得了就是主委您今天的這樣的發言就讓我認為你就是一個不能夠自己做主"},{"start":265.908,"end":283.267,"text":"只能够事事听从上面长官的命令然后等候上级指示的木偶人本席已经了解您的态度了而且本席根本压根认为你就是不敢告诉我们现在到底这个十二所顶尖国立大学里面到底拿了多少的专题研究计划"},{"start":284.108,"end":309.394,"text":"这里面是不是可能有特别图立某些大学本席已经听到非常多来自于学界的教授们大家非常惊讶这两年通过的比率非常之低但是本席有看到发现你们的研究补助经费基本上并没有缩减那就代表说非常有可能这些计划经费是图立了哪些学校"},{"start":311.334,"end":331.383,"text":"如果没有的话你就应该要公开的迅速的提供给本席否则本席基本上我就会有这样的疑虑我觉得这些就是你现在国科会的问题你事事都要请示这个行政院卓荣泰你根本不敢自己去做决定好但接下来本席要讲的就是说"},{"start":332.703,"end":355.985,"text":"大家一直在质疑啊就一直在在说现在台湾的基础科学研究经费基本上是远比韩国日本还有乃至于像是瑞士美国的这些国家有明显的不足那么吴主委您在去年二月的时候你也很感慨的说台湾的投入科研数十年却没有"},{"start":356.365,"end":357.486,"text":"本席基本上是暗蓝认同的"},{"start":381.718,"end":395.607,"text":"所谓巧妇难为无名之炊今天台湾的大学虽然说不是说没有经费做研究但是普遍的问题就是我们的研究经费不足特别是基础科学研究的经费"},{"start":397.435,"end":417.43,"text":"本心很在意的就说我们台湾我们政府是不是真正提供了一个足够可以让基础研究长成为世界级影响力的肥沃的土壤我们来看看的根据你国科会在去年10月底所公布的113年的全国科技动态调查"},{"start":418.87,"end":432.875,"text":"2024年台湾的公司部门的研发经费突破了一兆台币这个数字看起来很亮眼可是我们再看看如果把一兆的经费你拆开成为几个部分"},{"start":434.366,"end":457.304,"text":"我们发现几乎是两个世界这一兆经费里面14%是来自于政府部门还有公部门的投资其他的16%基本上就是民间私部门企业的技术开发而且这些民间企业的这个科研经费主要是投资在半导体的制程的精进以及与优化"},{"start":457.964,"end":479.797,"text":"那么对于这个台湾的基础投资对于台湾的基础研究的经费整体而言他投资的比例大概只有7.7%大概是在800大概就809亿左右所以呢事实上就是整个台湾的这个研究经费他挹注在基础科学研究的"},{"start":480.177,"end":501.412,"text":"项目是非常非常低的在整个一兆的科研经费里面只有800多800亿左右是投入在科学研究经费里面那么所以呢我们发现就看起来台湾好像是个研发大国但是实际上更像是个应用科技的巨人基础科学研究的侏儒所以我想请教"},{"start":503.191,"end":524.303,"text":"主委就是我國115年度的科研經費大概是1600億左右請問這1600億的科研預算當中有多少的比例是投資在基礎研究經費你說整個1600億裡面多少的比例這個數字我等一下請同仁查一下基礎研究"},{"start":530.84,"end":539.247,"text":"國科會的部分我們114年是408億只有408億114年去年今年我們成長一點本來要更高的一點是多少一點"},{"start":548.395,"end":573.472,"text":"427億就是因為我們財政收支方法使得我們今年的預算被迫要從1800億降到1600億所以剛剛委員提的議題其實就是我們預算的問題主委你不要再牽拖我們從去年到今年今年當然預算還沒有審去年的預算我們有像你們國會會任何一毛錢的預算嗎今年就是還沒有審"},{"start":574.724,"end":579.046,"text":"所以今年还没有审我现在讲是前面的事情你不要再讲说是今年的预算今年的预算确实是没有审但是你们还是可以去执行而且按照预算法的规定新增的没有办法你超出的怎么可以执行呢我们新增的计划我们来看看啦"},{"start":592.954,"end":604.582,"text":"你们新兴计划我们现在立法院已经通过了30几项计划委员如果支持基础研究就赶快通过预算我们明年还要再增加好了了解了所以主委您的意思说现在所有基础研究经费全部都是靠新兴计划吗你们在年度的预算里面你们没走吗既有的计划"},{"start":619.091,"end":626.835,"text":"你们年度的预算计划本来就有而这个计划你们就可以去执行所以你今天执行不能超出原来的额度啊执行不能超出原来额度啊"},{"start":631.459,"end":637.062,"text":"所以你要新興計畫我們也通過新興計畫問題是卓榮泰他有給嗎他不給我們現在的問題是說立法院通過新興計畫可是卓榮泰他不發給你是矛盾的你要支持基礎研究就要通過我們的預算好不好就這樣子盡快我現在要求你們要增編要增編"},{"start":656.857,"end":658.118,"text":"主委您今天這樣子嗆立法委員我覺得是非常不對的"},{"start":677.919,"end":691.289,"text":"我們所要求的所有資料都不給你還有什麼臉好意思在這裡講而且你根本就是亂扯我們去年的一百一十四年度的一百一十五年度的行政會的經費來來來兩邊先停一下休息一下"},{"start":699.794,"end":709.109,"text":"五秒五秒,兩邊平心靜氣我們討論事情,也希望大家有一方面講基礎研究重要對,不好意思我正在發言"},{"start":714.073,"end":730.11,"text":"我想諮詢議題有問有答是固然重要但是我們希望平心靜氣那不要用激烈的言語過當的態度來面對那也希望兩邊呢能夠繼續平心靜氣的來討論我們繼續"},{"start":735.694,"end":761.355,"text":"好 我現在要講的就是我也不要再浪費多的時間我就請主委你要提供給我115年度科研經費裡面大概有多少的比例是投資在基礎科學研究有多少比例是在應用科技及技術發展的部分金額比例是多少我希望國科會兩週之內就給本席一個報告請問我們主席是不是可以同意要求國科會要提供這份報告同時給我們所有的委員參考"},{"start":764.295,"end":783.265,"text":"好 主委如果在剛剛所提到的這個無關於任何機密的情況之下那本來就應該擁有相關的資料應該兩個禮拜可以完成吧沒問題可以嗎沒問題啊好 會後麻煩再提供給所有的委員一份好不好好 包含給我翁小林委員翁小林委員然後另外我最後要講一句話"},{"start":784.588,"end":807.739,"text":"因為曾經得到過諾貝爾生理醫學獎的日本東京工業大學教授大禹兩點曾經說過要想讓科學有利於社會可能需要一百年這樣的名言本席希望你國科會能夠更重視台灣基礎科學的研究該通過計畫就要通過該病例就要編列不要在那裡東扯西扯好 以上好 我們謝謝翁委員巡打"}]}},{"id":"168260","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168260","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/70d8fc05dcd8abb0f9f6e27b1908ac901607b63c45e41aa0ce185cfc45202cc0db08b1e8b7a4a0825ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"11:41:17 - 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主席謝謝 麻煩請我們國安局蔡局長我們請國安局蔡局長"},{"start":10.918,"end":37.11,"text":"謝主席 黃委員好好 局長好 局長本席引用一個委員的質詢我幾乎沒有引用過但這個我覺得是很重要的國安議題林俊憲委員在上禮拜他質詢的時候指出他說跟賴清德總統去亞太球場看棒球比賽整整三四個小時現場完全沒手機收訊連總統隨行助理手機都沒訊號那會不會造成是一個失聯的狀態"},{"start":38.482,"end":59.658,"text":"我覺得這相對來講嚴重喔所以說我想先確認一下說三四個小時賴清德總統到亞太球場看球有沒有沒有收訊因為這是林俊憲委員他直接點名整整三四個小時現場完全沒手機訊號然後他還特別舔到說連總統的隨行助理手機都沒訊號一直到總統離開總統車隊上車在室外手機還沒有訊號"},{"start":65.542,"end":93.397,"text":"嚴不嚴重我剛剛有了解一下我們這個現場並沒有開遮屏器故意去進行通訊的干擾沒有第二個是我們的了解是現場的收訊的條件比較不好可能因為人比較多人多嘛因為兩萬五千人在那邊但重點好重點是局長有沒有聽到重點重點就是總統在一個地點如果說連他的隨戶連他的隨行都沒有訊號那真的發生事情"},{"start":94.257,"end":113.314,"text":"怎麼聯繫委員放心啦因為我們的我沒有辦法放心是因為林俊憲委員講出一個大白話讓我們覺得說突然間總統在一個沒有收訊的地方三四個小時那結果你現在跟我講說委員放心我不知道我要怎麼放心對我要講的放心是我們特勤委員都還有其他的通訊裝備會掌握現場的狀況來對這就是本席想要詢問的"},{"start":114.275,"end":141.283,"text":"就是說其實我們現在看到連新聞媒體記者他們現在開直播都會背一個叫5G包啊那某種程度上它就是一個加強訊號那本席要講的是說現在總統的危安因為這個從這件事情看得出來我覺得這跟總統過去到現在他的一個出席的場合有很大的關係為什麼我們知道總統要出席一個場合事先會先有國安人員或是說相關的危安人員先去現場場刊"},{"start":142.583,"end":162.454,"text":"第二 那個現場到底是什麼樣的情況 場刊的時候跟現場的狀況可能不一定一樣因為場刊的時候沒有兩萬五千人的觀眾 但突然間在那邊有兩萬五千人的觀眾的時候那可能相對來講這些收敘 以及最重要是如果說真的發生什麼危難的時候 怎麼樣的逃脫路線 怎麼樣的路線都要規劃"},{"start":163.835,"end":185.807,"text":"是 所以本席現在在請教 局長 針對這一個議題跟這一個事件來講有沒有考慮未來總統的維安人員出去的時候 至少車上或說相關的配備有增加 譬如說5G包 或說相關的通訊設備 以及剛剛牛許廷委員所講到的無人機的攻擊"},{"start":186.887,"end":211.937,"text":"十年前有一部電影美國白宮拍那個攻擊白宮我想第三集你可以特別回去看一下他就講的是說美國總統被無人機攻擊而且他一次用風群的無人機那這已經是十年前好萊塢拍的影片本席現在不是危言聳聽但本席跟我們所有國人都一樣既然中華民國總統代表中華民國我絕對不可能"},{"start":213.117,"end":238.534,"text":"讓我們的總統放在任何的危險的一個狀況也因此國安局的任務跟責任就是要確保總統安全以及他的通訊是良好的美國總統他的野獸那個專車啊上面甚至還有美國總統的血液這個同類型的血或是說相關的飛彈設施怎麼干擾設備那就是防止說有任何的情況發生的時候第一時間總統可以獲得最好的醫療救護"},{"start":239.815,"end":256.895,"text":"所以我現在拉回來還是一樣針對這個事件有沒有考慮未來來做一些調整或是說更精進的方法請說明好 謝謝委員的關心那剛剛有稍微跟委員說明一下不好意思有點插話那主要的原因是要跟委員說明的是把安全做好最重要"},{"start":257.335,"end":283.331,"text":"那主要的原因是我們特勤這邊他有其他的通訊裝備以避免大家公用的這些通訊的頻段出現一些被干擾的狀況這大概是第一部分的說明那第二部分的說明是剛剛牛許廷委員也有提到了假如遇到中共的這種無人機不管是風群或軍規無人機的攻擊有沒有一些因應的做法那這部分假如是涉及到比較國家緊急情況的時候會讓中共的無人機能夠領導"},{"start":284.412,"end":314.012,"text":"接近到我們的相關空域的話那我們就會啟動我們相關軍事的我討論的跟這個比較不一樣我現在講的是說總統即便是在一個正常的活動出席在我們國內你剛剛講到中共可能是直接就是大規模但已經變成是軍力半台的層級但是本席現在講的比較是譬如說像那一天亞太球場開幕他可能會有無人機那如果說現場有民用無人機或說這個廠商業者的無人機但是他"},{"start":314.432,"end":327.578,"text":"突然間我們不知道是什麼狀況突然間他往總統靠近那是不是也應該要有必要的防護措施以及必要的譬如說是電子槍干擾器來去做相關的防範我覺得這一些部分是"},{"start":328.786,"end":355.646,"text":"因為這涉及可能是相關國安機密但本席要再一次提醒是我們從林俊憲委員的質詢裡面看到一個大白話是如果說連總統旁邊的助理都可以三四個小時沒有收訊即便你剛剛講的是說有特殊的管道但特殊管道跟特殊管道之間可能極少數的連結但如果今天總統是發生一個什麼樣的事情而需要趕快讓第一時間社會大眾知道"},{"start":356.564,"end":367.479,"text":"安全無虞或說要有什麼樣的聯繫方式的話我覺得相關的5G訊號還是必要的所以這也是為什麼我在提醒說連民間都已經有這樣的一個使用"},{"start":368.683,"end":389.993,"text":"不增加困擾的情況下但是能夠多增加安全的保障即便啊今天發生什麼事情管局局長要跟總統直接做報告你會採取的方式我相信最快的方式還是用手機或說用相關的一個系統來去跟總統旁邊的秘書來做聯繫這最快嘛所以一定要確保這樣的一個通訊是暢通無語的是吧"},{"start":390.573,"end":411.501,"text":"對 這個通訊韌性我們一直都有在注意那剛剛委員提到的通訊韌性問題以外還有涉及到無人機的突襲在成品的時候那這部分我們大概在總統地點的場所多部署一些反無人機的一些干擾的設備那也有一些比較高位置的一些部署來做相關的預警好啦 局長 所以這是兩件"},{"start":413.021,"end":423.32,"text":"本席提出來的重點不要再讓我們看到說連執政黨委員都講一個大白話說三四個小時失去通訊我覺得這是一個非常令人捏麻冷汗的事情好不好感謝"}]}},{"id":"168259","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168259","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/70d8fc05dcd8abb0af074a63312f6d33a7afadf2dd1952ecce185cfc45202cc0db08b1e8b7a4a0825ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"11:40:45 - 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越南 現在都是希望說能夠work from home就是居家辦公有些像菲律賓還說行政單位都要減少 盡量的去減少你的行政的天數那世界各國也都有 韓國是很早就說就是要節約能源 盡量少減少交通的耗油"},{"start":368.916,"end":372.437,"text":"那對台灣來說對台灣來講因為我們是採取油價的補貼當然這是必須的可是另外一方面我看不到我們現在在民間有任何的大家覺得應該要來節約能源所以我個人認為"},{"start":387.543,"end":411.881,"text":"如果現在能源的短缺以及價格的上漲會是一個趨勢我也認為我們政府不要因為我知道很怕說因為選舉到了我們採取這些措施可能會得罪選民可是我覺得大家應該要共體時間的時候就要共體時間至少像其他國家都有這些就是包含居家辦公還有一些交通節約我覺得我們應該也有這些具體的政策因為呢"},{"start":416.564,"end":433.653,"text":"這個我們主席站起來了中游有關於融資的部分請提供書面的資料給我好嗎我覺得這會更清楚因為我擔心的是這樣的疊加會使得這個財務的支出我們至少要了解到底我們要負擔到什麼樣的程度好不好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168258","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168258","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/70d8fc05dcd8abb057e2540e435ea1001607b63c45e41aa0ce185cfc45202cc01c0234b0a221b0dd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"11:32:01 - 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先請那個國防部政治作戰局使局長請局長"},{"start":14.841,"end":33.504,"text":"局長午安,今天針對國軍官兵的急難貸款跟你做一下討論,為什麼從這樣子的話題來切入呢?因為大家都講這段時間發生的部分的所謂的國安破口,其實是來自於部分的國軍官兵可能有經濟上的困難跟需求"},{"start":34.285,"end":51.331,"text":"那被這個老共逮到了空子他就用這個示意小惠用利用的這個方式然後要交換出賣國家機密嘛這因為這個很小條的東西然後造成情報的流失跟機密的外洩這我想對於我們國家安全來講當然是得不償失嘛那我想這除了"},{"start":53.132,"end":75.904,"text":"這個該懲治的要懲治該防堵的要防堵之外我們也要思考一下怎麼樣從源頭解決這個問題所以今天從這個角度來切入這時候國安局的報告裡面有講就是說用網路平台為媒介利誘尋求借貸的現退役軍人以稅刑交付機敏資訊換取資金以及拍攝效忠影片錄音檔事業書等等任務就有58人現退役軍人數32人佔比55%所以我想這是一個問題"},{"start":79.346,"end":106.488,"text":"那當然這個政戰局也提出了一些方案從今年的1月1號開始這個開辦國軍官兵的集單貸款也就是說我因應這個事國軍確實會有一些人經濟上的困難或短期的需求比照公教的方式做了一些這個制度上的設計去避免說因為小的經濟困難然後變找地下錢莊然後越滾越大然後被迫走投無路去處理這個事情所以現在是不管志願役、義務役都可以身帶然後10萬元以下免保人等等"},{"start":107.429,"end":130.274,"text":"那如果沒有辦法服役者,當然你要離英錢繳清嘛,這些狀況大概是這樣但我今天要提一個事情,就是國防部的版本裡面這個國軍官兵的急難貸款裡面的配套,裡面有一個剩餘役期啊如果沒有到六個月,他沒有辦法就使用這樣子的一個政策的優惠喔這個有沒有違德不足之處啊,這個局長要不要回答一下"},{"start":131.745,"end":146.881,"text":"謝委員有關於現在吉蘭貸款的部分主要我們還是得考慮到我們現在跟銀行的一個合作的機制那當然我們還是要考慮他還款的能力這是第一個"},{"start":147.341,"end":173.913,"text":"第二個我們針對國軍官兵他的財務失衡的一個狀況所以我們不僅僅是針對他財務可能有問題的一個情形我們另外也針對他財務失衡的狀況我們各級部隊都會有所掌握掌握之後我們了解他的一個原因除了跟他本人了解之外我們也透過家訪的方式了解他財務失衡的一個狀況"},{"start":175.453,"end":190.431,"text":"這些都是你現在在做的事嘛 是我今天就談為什麼我特別去提疫情不足六個月這件事情我為什麼會講說它叫違德不足原因是這樣嘛我想當初提這個東西除了照顧國軍之外也要防堵破口嘛但現在如果是剩餘疫情不足六個月的人不能身帶的話"},{"start":191.252,"end":212.199,"text":"我覺得它會形成所謂的雙重風險第一重我六個月之後我就要退役了我沒有要在國軍裡面發展等等我就沒有你講比較難聽一點可能就沒有包袱了嘛對不對我去做一些奇奇怪怪的事情大概也比較不會有顧忌對不對因為我沒有要繼續走這條路要繼續發展加上我如果真的遇到經濟困難我剛好又被這個六個月的條款排除在外經濟困難又沒有辦法解決"},{"start":213.86,"end":235.928,"text":"我覺得就會形成所謂的雙重風險就讓這一群人反而變得更容易被滲透的對象當然我們都希望不要發生這個事但它難免有可能有這樣的一個狀況那我有看到嘛因為我們的貸款的這個款源我們也有提撥相關的基金嘛讓銀行有更大的空間去擔保等等另外就我們國軍應該退退之後六個月退退理論上應該會有退五金嘛"},{"start":236.548,"end":261.729,"text":"會有一些相關的這樣的東西這能不能做一個綜合的考量然後把這個規範稍微放寬不要變成為德不足我請教一下政戰局的意見是 謝謝委員的指教我想第一步我們先做到可以先解決官兵急難能夠有可以跟銀行借一筆錢出來先解決眼前的問題那我想委員剛剛提到的這第二步也許我們在第一步檢討完了之後我們可以做進一步的一個討論"},{"start":262.87,"end":291.725,"text":"好 這有用開放的心態來看這件事情所以其實當然可以接受那就希望在一段時間你當然可以設定一段時間但我也要提醒我剛剛特別提這一段就是因為有雙重風險的問題如果在這一段你第一階段的試行的時候請你特別針對這個六個月以前的你可能要花更多的心力去了解那如果說制度修正比較有效率那就趕快來做制度的修正這本席給偵探局的這樣一個建議希望大家可以把這個破口把它堵起來好 謝謝偵探局長請回謝謝委員長那請國安局蔡局長"},{"start":301.525,"end":320.351,"text":"劉委員長局長你好今天討論一下維安相關的現在大家都針對比如說政府總統或者委員院長等等一些維安尤其是他們是政治人物難免出席群眾場合等等現在大家擔心比如說無人機它會不會是一個新的維安上的威脅或者是一個破口"},{"start":320.851,"end":349.647,"text":"那過去的時候我們要針對這種無人機的騷擾也好徵收也好有不同的反制手段比如說軟殺也就是用干擾的方式我讓你飛不起來我讓你落地那硬殺我當然就直接擊墜嘛大概是這樣子的兩個邏輯那如果是考量維安大部分應該不會在大庭廣眾面前把無人機擊落恐怕實務效果比較難處理所以大部分從維安的角度出發大家都採取訊號干擾的這樣的一個方式來處理沒有錯吧對目前是這樣目前是這樣好那現在"},{"start":350.487,"end":369.88,"text":"因為無人機的這個技術一直在更新啦那現在本期有了解到比如說在烏克蘭的戰場上出現的光纖無人機就看起來是無線它其實是有線的因為以前是無線訊號我只要打斷了無線訊號無人機它當然就必須要降落嘛或者是掉下來等等那現在的光纖無人機而且實體的有線的而且距離好像還蠻長的這個長達"},{"start":372.962,"end":395.797,"text":"數十公里 當然是媒體報導 姑且引用之那它優勢是什麼 它抗電子干擾我的軟砂效果可能會失效 然後它還不以前訊號不好 畫面傳不回來 塗床等等會有問題 現在沒有嘛 那光纖好像也不是特別特別難的技術啦也就是說這光纖無人機啊 已經出現 甚至我們自己國內這因應國防等等 也都有開始進行一些採購那現在"},{"start":398.824,"end":420.524,"text":"這樣的狀況在上一次國安局我們在內政委會以前有開過會在討論治安狀況跟強化維安的時候有講就我們針對無人機的徵收干擾等等我們還是用採購無人機干擾槍的方式來做處理那麼因應不依靠這種遙控不依靠這種訊號的所謂的光纖無人機現在國安局有沒有針對這樣的可能性進行一些研討或者是提出新的反制措施"},{"start":421.925,"end":435.884,"text":"謝謝劉委員的提醒跟關注這個涉及到元首為安的議題因為中共也有可能在對台的一個可能軍事的一個行動當中也會不排除有這種所謂的斬首的行動那當然這要"},{"start":436.405,"end":458.39,"text":"分不同的一個場景在平時就像我們在內政委員會跟委員報告說明的平時可能重視的是對於商規無人機這種訊號的干擾或迫降讓他回到原地那但是到了比較國家比較緊急的時候那可能我們要啟動的是針對軍規的無人機他可能可能發動了相關的攻擊那所以這部分可能出我們的"},{"start":459.25,"end":481.512,"text":"國安局的特勤中心以外我們要結合到國防部這邊整體的防空的位數那透過郭城的截擊來避免這些無人機迫近到元首的所在地活動的地點而造成對元首有危害所以這部分我們是有一些配置的當然你講的軍規當然是在有衝突的情況下戰爭的時候那當然就是通通擊落嘛這沒有什麼好講那我的意思是說這些"},{"start":482.473,"end":508.733,"text":"光纖無人機它有沒有可能它是軟性的方式我可能只是來蒐集情報啊偷拍啊有的沒的被這樣子應用的時候它就比較尷尬因為你講比如說在軍事要塞關鍵基礎設施那就很好處理嘛就擊落也沒有關係但是比如說維安人很多的時候它就有一些狀況那我希望我今天只是提醒啦就是國防部國安局也好國防部也好針對這種光纖無人機它如果被用在這種軟性的群眾場合的時候可能要提早做一下部署"},{"start":509.634,"end":530.165,"text":"怎麼針對這種光纖無人機也要進行反制的措施去確保大家的安全 可以嗎可以 這部分有在評估一些新的因應的方式那我們跟國防部 縣子部這邊大概都有做一些專欄的討論好 那如果討論有一些明確的進展的時候也要盡快的跟國會來報告讓我們去了解這些進展 可以嗎好 謝謝劉偉好 謝謝 辛苦了"}]}},{"id":"168239","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168239","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/70d8fc05dcd8abb0864828441a928473a7afadf2dd1952ec212c5ce4660756d301cee844413abcda5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"呂玉玲","委員發言時間":"10:44:27 - 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China雖然陳校長他們透過校方公開的說明說他不知情這件事情是有人刻意要抹黑但是我們已經啟動了調查目前我所知道的是我們已經在進行初審的部分了對不對"},{"start":83.971,"end":103.523,"text":"是 我們已經啟動調查程序會查證這個事那這個是初審的部分已經完成了嗎那副審什麼時候會進來還沒有 現在在學校在進行當中還在進行當中那有沒有預計什麼時候會完成然後或者是說我們的副審的部分是什麼時候會有一個比較確定的一個時程"},{"start":104.983,"end":123.474,"text":"我們預計四月底要學校要審查調查完畢要回函那如果這個調查是屬實那之前他所申請的這個研究的一個補助我們是會追回嗎還是說我們也會有後續的其他的一些處分"},{"start":123.914,"end":150.704,"text":"後續會依照我們倫理委員會審查審議的結果我們看情節的輕重看事實來決定那個懲處的部分那我想這個問題其實也凸顯了就是在這些所謂的這個補助不管是重複申請也好或是跨國的一個審查的一個困難度那我想這也凸顯了這樣的一個問題將來國科會要如何來勾擊而不是只有靠所謂的檢舉"},{"start":152.225,"end":170.102,"text":"因为这次这个事件是因为媒体就是检举然后媒体披露然后我们国科会进入调查那教育部目前是还没有回应那之后的比方说像跨国的一个期刊会补助的一些资料的一个比对的一个机制我们有没有想过这个部分我们可能要来做演绎跟改进"},{"start":170.851,"end":197.069,"text":"我們可以來研議看看看看有沒有更好的工具讓國科會在這一類的事情發生的時候我們不需要等待檢舉我們就可以察覺其實應該要同步趕快就先來補救因為同樣的這件事情發生可能之後也許還會有第二件那這個部分其實如果我們的機制能夠早點出來的話其實也可以防止這樣子的一個問題的產生 爭議的產生好"},{"start":200.291,"end":226.737,"text":"那接下來我想問一下就是關於我們的這個國家發射場的一個選址那目前我們已經確定了就是在屏東滿洲的這個九鵬村那我也看了大概是這個去年12月20號的這個第二場的一個公聽會但是針對這個選址的部分我還是想要請教一下這個主委那報告中其實有特別提到就是說預計這樣子的一個每年的觀光的效益會高達6萬人"},{"start":228.637,"end":246.106,"text":"這個是我們在報告當中有看到那另外就是會帶動這個地方的一個產業的發展創造120個間接或直接的一個跟太空相關的一個就業的一個機會但我想請教的就是說這個報告當中剛剛我提到的這個三項的一個正面的一個效果這個是"},{"start":247.347,"end":276.116,"text":"模型的推估還是我們已經有實證的一個基礎因為我們知道這個當地的人口只有378人378人而已喔那近10年來的人口的成長率它是負的它是負2.07%那這樣子的一個衝擊其實不只是這個發展的機會其實也會產生在當地的他們的一個生活的一個巨大的一個衝擊跟改變那這個部分我們想到底是模型的推估還是"},{"start":276.696,"end":300.134,"text":"我們有實證可以證明之後會有6萬人觀光有120個這個間接或直接的一個工作的機會的提供然後帶動地方的產業請教這個是依照過去我們觀察在美國在日本類似的這種建設它所帶動的一些效益是也不是我們憑空依側那再加上說我們的規劃將來是要搭配"},{"start":300.994,"end":324.028,"text":"很多的活動也不是只有我們才會發生的一個發射所以我們要建置太空科技博物館也要希望把跟當地的旅遊生態相關的文化活動等等做結合屏東縣政府其實也利用這個機會也做了非常完善的當地發展的一些規劃所以我們希望能夠朝這個目標前進"},{"start":325.049,"end":342.998,"text":"但是其實我看的那個第二份就是12月20號的那個報告其實我自己有一個感想就是說我們對於所謂的這個居民的影響的評估到底有沒有確實足不足夠因為為什麼因為報告當中我們看到就是發射的期間其實我們要進行海域跟陸域的一個管制對不對"},{"start":343.898,"end":358.669,"text":"然後再來我們也可能會影響到所謂的娛樂跟經濟的活動那再來還有就是我們要用補償跟回饋的一個處理那這個其實這個補償跟回饋是去交換他們的這個居民原本的一個日常的生活嗎"},{"start":361.036,"end":380.467,"text":"那個發射期間其實是很短暫的,所以那個管制的期間很短這個跟現在那個我們的演習等等比起來其實還要短得多但是我們相對的會對當地造成的額外的那種經濟繁榮其實是遠高於他們在短暫時間所損失的那個餘貨等等"},{"start":381.607,"end":408.996,"text":"應該是大得多 效益會大得多這個當然我們都會跟他們溝通溝通看看用什麼樣的方式另外我有看到一點就是說我們要安置的一個方式我們有一個安置的方案那是要協助他們入住這個社宅但是我們知道這個酒棚是偏鄉請問最近的社宅在哪裡 距離有多遠那生活機能是不是能夠跟他們原本的生活能夠等值我想這個部分我們有沒有考慮進去"},{"start":409.836,"end":436.134,"text":"這部分有 這部分其實是我們要仰賴那個屏東縣政府因為他們最了解當地的狀況那我們一定會讓那些居民能夠接受因為一定要比他們現在可能居住的地方更好那覺得不會影響到他的那個生計對這個文化的融入等等我們一定會希望能夠周全的考慮那屏東縣政府正在積極的跟我們一起合作"},{"start":437.174,"end":465.583,"text":"那現在其實我們是12月20號是第二次的公聽會然後是嗎還是會持續我們還是會持續持續到溝通到最完整的一個狀況對不對那實際的可以發射的時間點是什麼時候我可以問一下嗎因為我們很怕說我衛星做好了場域還在公聽會還在環評還在跟當地溝通可能還沒有共識我們當地的社宅可能也還沒有處理好"},{"start":467.571,"end":485.564,"text":"我們原來的規劃是10年內最快就是2030年希望能夠快一點但是也要看看溝通的狀況等等我們不會很粗糙的去進行一定會好好的溝通有沒有第三次公聽會預計的時間"},{"start":487.865,"end":510.078,"text":"目前是新辦事業的那個就是兩次那我們還是持續的在溝通當中我們兩個月其實會跟屏東縣府再做一次工作層次的討論好因為今天時間的關係其實我還有第三題就是我們的這個AI戰略落地的一個檢討那這個部分其實我們到時候看是請這個主委我們再用資料書面上的一個這個網版"},{"start":512.8,"end":515.321,"text":"来知道落地的一些关键的问题"},{"start":544.264,"end":547.872,"text":"好谢谢郭委员的询答谢谢诸位"}]}},{"id":"168237","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168237","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/70d8fc05dcd8abb0971bcb35216bb07b01ae777e4c72867e212c5ce4660756d36367c9c5a82321895ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖偉翔","委員發言時間":"10:25:14 - 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那美國在這個美國在相關的計畫研究像AbilityOne它也有顯示這種戰略性的採購模式呢每投入一美元能為政府跟公眾"},{"start":111.794,"end":134.266,"text":"創造高達2.66美元的社會投資報酬率那也大幅節省政府在這個身障福利上面的補貼支出所以我想問一下部長你願不願意仿效去研究這個所謂的相關的這種採購制度來落實制度性的這種雙效採購那目前的綠色採購跟這個優先採購系統剛剛你講了其實它是相互獨立的那"},{"start":134.986,"end":146.716,"text":"他也導致這個基層人員的相關的行政負擔那你是不是願意研議跟這個相關的部會進行系統的串接然後呢你可以針對同時具備所謂的環保標章或者是庇護工廠"},{"start":147.426,"end":158.994,"text":"生產的產品或在機關的綠色採購績效的平和中呢給予更高的權重譬如說加成1.5倍之類的讓這個機構呢和機關可以一次的採購就可以達到兩項的績效也實質帶動這個所謂的庇護工廠進入這個綠色供應鏈這部分部長怎麼看"},{"start":169.061,"end":195.217,"text":"謝謝委員 因為您剛才說的的確我們是綠色採購是強調永續環保的部分那沒有考慮到這種所謂弱勢或是庇護的功能那我也讓委員讓我們研究一下說國際上有沒有這樣的案例我們要提供對 像歐盟啊 美國他們其實都有在做這方面的推動這個我們可以來研究對 所以我要進一步深化跟你講這個為什麼是可以因為其實有很多許多庇護工廠也在積極的尋求轉型"},{"start":196.698,"end":215.637,"text":"比如說提議引進黑水盲的養殖或者是這種高效快速發酵的技術像我們之前去參觀的考察過這樣那因為他們是這類技術具有這種高度的規律性跟結構化的流程那也根據這個所謂的職能治療的研究也非常適合固定行為模式的相關的這種"},{"start":217.779,"end":226.546,"text":"比如說自閉症的學員啊他可以這個顯著的降低他的焦慮也提升他工作的穩定度喔那另外包含這種傳統碎紙作業啦產出的這個紙纖維較短然後回收價值有限但是如果引進這種專業的譬如說碎紙壓專機或者是"},{"start":236.993,"end":251.943,"text":"廢紙的纖維化的設備他可以讓這些廢紙呢直接壓成高品質的再生這個紙的漿原料再生紙漿原料可以讓百分之百的循環進入喔所以也參考我剛剛說的美國的Ability One的計畫他們其實是有"},{"start":253.364,"end":277.365,"text":"將這個機密文件銷毀列為他們標準勞務採購的項目那也讓這些資源回收跟身障的就業整合他們也在做這個事情喔那但是目前同樣的就是說邀請部長回去瞭解的事情是這樣喔因為你在做今天的循環經濟裡面其實他們是可以有角色但是這個角色他的困境也在於他的設備成本剛我有提到這個設備成本嘛"},{"start":277.825,"end":303.037,"text":"那雖然勞動部呢目前是有對於勞動部是有對於這種庇護工廠的這個構置一些單向的設備補助是有一些補助的額度啦可是他通常都是在10萬以下但是對於這種大型的構置這種相關的系統剛剛說的這種這個要壓紙回收的原料這種系統他可能都是數十萬到數百萬喔都有好那所以我覺得今天剛好這個題目是不是可以"},{"start":304.338,"end":323.234,"text":"我希望部長回去可以研議我這個方向你去跟相關的部會去討論比如說剛剛講到不管是黑水盲啦或者是碎紙作業啦你們是不是要有一個輔助機制然後把他們可以納入到你這個資源循環的系統裡面因為事實上有其他國家也在做這件事情那你同時可以貢獻這個循環經濟跟社會包容"},{"start":325.396,"end":340.766,"text":"這部分是不是可以請副長謝謝委員提供的意見這個是蠻好的因為我們現在是針對弱勢或是偏鄉或是地方創生或是相關的比較弱勢的去做處理這個庇護工廠我們的確過去沒有特別研究過那我們會來遵照委員的意見來研究"},{"start":341.607,"end":360.191,"text":"好那請部長是不是可以一個月內給本席辦公室一個相關的報告我們會先來去跟跨部會來進行討論對你要告訴我說你們有什麼進展然後你們有沒有相關的研究請提供報告給本席辦公室可以可以好那再來這題這個部長還是先請留著可是我還是想要請這個經濟部能源署的副署長副署長今天是這個經濟部能源署副署長對"},{"start":371.325,"end":376.305,"text":"或者是也可以請那個產業發展署的副署長那個副組長"},{"start":383.151,"end":403.137,"text":"我想要請教一下副署長或是副組長你們看是誰可以回答你們現在經濟部為了鼓勵既有的光電暗場轉換成高效模組好像你們在今年1月有公告在再生能源短購費率中有新增一個太陽光電太舊換新機制對不對"},{"start":406.946,"end":429.499,"text":"那根據規範只要換了新的太陽能板既有的發電量可以照以前的這個等購算那新增的發電量照新的算讓光電業者的其實在這部分他收益是可以增加那你們還說要現有盤點全台有這個800MW的既有暗場那想要請問一下那你預計未來五年會增加500MW對嗎如果說用這種換的方式"},{"start":432.501,"end":437.389,"text":"還是是嗎那你們預計今年有多少案場要淘汰預計會換多少量這個我們會再做盤點因為這個還有涉及到意願"},{"start":446.051,"end":474.01,"text":"立院什麼?議院但是你們當初在用這個規劃的時候你沒有去盤點過嗎?沒有去調查過嗎?應該是要有才會出現這個規劃吧我們是盤點就是超過10年的設置案那這些案件的設備基本上是比較老舊那效率可能有點衰退那這些就是未來可能會太久換新的一個那你們現在的方案是直接補助嗎?還是說費率的收益讓他們有一些費率收益的"},{"start":475.404,"end":483.062,"text":"呃誘因而已呃我們呃沒有沒有補助就是費率上面的誘因就是費率上面的誘因嗎好那接下來我就要再問了齁就是"},{"start":484.298,"end":512.692,"text":"我想要問我們彭部長啦所以剛剛其實業務委員提到可是他沒有提到這個論點就是說現在他們開始在鼓勵太舊換新但是這項政策其實無疑就是把很多原本你剛剛在講其實2035年以後才廢棄的模組提前可能提前到今年2026開始到2030年進入回收體系對不對那請教部長接下來的舊版你們的回收處理量能有準備好了嗎你們兩個單位有去溝通過嗎"},{"start":514.295,"end":525.847,"text":"因為這個就有嗎有有目前呃有現在有4家在處理嘛齁那我知道有幾家正在生澀當中因為他們看好未來的商機我想要請問一下經濟部在做這個事情的時候有沒有先跟你們溝通"},{"start":527.48,"end":554.097,"text":"有嘛對不對那你們有剛剛可是我剛剛問他說有多少量能你有掌握你有去盤點說如果他現在做這件事今年開始或是2026到2030年有多少量能會進來嗎他們現在這個提早淘汰的我們並不清楚因為我的量這是他們現在最新的政策我們並沒有去算這個淘汰的所以我剛其實問的是說你回收處理量能有準備好了嗎這個就等於是沒辦法回答囉有有有所以你們準備好他如果現在"},{"start":554.617,"end":581.119,"text":"你都不知道量能多少你怎麼可以確定你準備好我們現在有五家總共將近五千噸一個月可以處理五千噸的量能一個月可以處理五千噸所以你意思是說他淘汰下來五千噸你都可以就是都有辦法沒有問題好那好那我就要接下來再問那部長因為剛也有討論到你們其實你們環境部有這個資源回收管理基金那你們今天的會議三月份的會議資料有寫但目前的處理技術跟再生這個"},{"start":582.08,"end":611.132,"text":"的用途不同的用的方式不同那回收處理成本大概是每k瓦是一千六到兩千四那相較於能源署徵收的一千其實是尚不足以收支平衡請問部長那你現在已經收支不平衡了請問你們要怎麼處理因為現在的量很少所以他處理的成本相對的就會高那未來未來的這個均過他們的這個專業的有去估算未來的費用應該會慢慢的往未來是什麼時候然後你怎麼往下因為"},{"start":613.849,"end":632.599,"text":"127年什麼意思127年它的量就會起來127年對現在沒有這個量啊127年那我們剛剛說了你現在他們這個補助方案有可能是2026到2030就是115年開始就有這些量能出現了現在就有了"},{"start":632.919,"end":661.153,"text":"對嘛 現在又有了嘛所以你知道這裡會發生什麼事情嗎你現在每K瓦都是虧嘛你等於每K瓦你在回收的時候都虧嘛所以這不是我講的這是主計處的估算如果按照你這個每K瓦每K瓦的1000到2045年累積可收173億那估計處理成本是397億所以差額有224億耶那你現在在加速推動這個太陽能板的換新的時候這部分是不是就只會虧更多"},{"start":662.628,"end":676.654,"text":"因為你你也還沒到你也還沒到127年你的那個量體啦對不對包委員這個中間替換的部分這個模組回收費用是由業者出的你現在替換的部分你說你現在替換了然後那些下來的板"},{"start":677.248,"end":696.054,"text":"回收的成本咧你說他自己要再多拿一千六或是兩千四出來嗎就是給他們去處理所以這部分你可以保證不會影響到就是其他民眾要負擔的納稅錢嗎這個一千塊是屬於正常淘汰的二十年三十年之後正常淘汰的費用"},{"start":696.954,"end":725.056,"text":"所以你現在鼓勵的方式也就是說如果他們要提早這個十年到期的還要淘汰的這些成本都是確定不會由納稅人的錢買單是嗎就很像說去年那個可以保證嘛對不對對去年像嘉義有很多廢棄的光電板大量的那那個其實都是業者自己負擔沒有用到這個基金那所以我想問說那對於業者來講他說那我之前有繳這個一千塊的那你怎麼算最後他最後還是要除以"},{"start":725.592,"end":744.393,"text":"他最後除役的時候還是要用到那他現在就是提早要換了嘛那你換新的板當然是他自己要出啊我是說那個換下來的舊的板的回收的部分也是他們要出嗎是嗎是嗎就是說這2400是他要處理的好所以確定不會用到全民納稅人的錢你要確保喔這裡是有記錄的好那所以"},{"start":744.893,"end":755.286,"text":"因為我們擔心的就是說因為看到這個狀況這兩個機制如果你們兩個沒有溝通好的話就會變成是你本來就已經在虧了結果你現在突然又一大票進來要處理那你的成本還是這麼高"},{"start":756.57,"end":776.957,"text":"是不是部長你可以保證?因為現在是經濟部在代收這個錢,能源署在代收,那未來我們如果修的這個資源循環推動法裡面,那個所謂的太陽光電或風電的這種一開始就源頭管理就由循環署來管理,相對的這個機制或是費率可能會比較更有彈性。"},{"start":777.637,"end":791.802,"text":"因為你本來其實是為什麼本席這樣問是因為你本來上一年底的時候就有說可能要研議提高所謂的費率處理費率嘛對你本來說1000塊可能不夠你也要提高嘛對不對本來說上一年底就要處理但是你沒處理你你今天是說可能是因為"},{"start":792.702,"end":806.089,"text":"因為這個光電業者已經進入一個寒冬了所以基本上當我們提出這個想法跟溝通的時候我相信這個主力是非常大的我是要說因為你今年演到年底啦你年底不管你調你預計會調因為你剛剛說127年嘛"},{"start":809.951,"end":830.526,"text":"到現在是115年的情況之下還有12年的期間那你這中間等於所有都是在虧錢在處理所以你說你可能會你可能會年底會調那現在就會變成是說那今年年初他們有這樣子的一個方案出現了會不會導致大批的這些大批的業者他會想說那我就趕快提早在這個時候先回收因為這個時候處理是1000塊"},{"start":833.628,"end":860.162,"text":"會嗎不會 因為沒有人想要做這樣的事所以你覺得他這樣的鼓勵政策是不會造成不會造成的話那他鼓勵政策這樣不就有點自相矛盾嗎你說他們不願意做這個事那他們又推這個事那你有吸引到他們嗎他們是從那個發電效率可以提升可以多賺一點這個光電的錢這個角度就可以去算出來這是一個完全是一個財務模型我們算這個1000塊也是財務模型所以基本上不會有影響"},{"start":860.942,"end":874.726,"text":"好因為我要說的事情就是說你這個費用你要確保不會用到這個全民的納稅錢因為事實上我們不是說不鼓勵綠色能源發展要鼓勵可是我們現在看到這個機制我們很擔心"},{"start":876.847,"end":894.367,"text":"好不好不過我必須說這個可能寫的報告的人他不是很懂得這個財務模型的機制啦所以我們會去再做解釋你要回去再解釋喔好那請這個確保這件事情答應本席確保這件事情也給本席辦公室你解釋的給我們看一下你到底怎麼解釋這件事是好謝謝好謝謝廖偉祥委員發言"}]}},{"id":"168236","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168236","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/70d8fc05dcd8abb02b61d341fcf3b2f5f747912251df0827212c5ce4660756d36175e7c94f56e9555ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳素月","委員發言時間":"10:34:05 - 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謝謝主席 請主席邀請林部長好 我們請林部長委員長"},{"start":16.139,"end":35.634,"text":"部長早 現在資訊化的時代 尤其是AI的運用的技術真的是日新月異 進步非常的快可是AI我們也知道 它的運用如果是用在好的 正向的當然對整個國家的競爭力 產業的發展是有很大的幫助"},{"start":37.815,"end":58.831,"text":"不好的方面當然就是會造成社會的不安就是擾亂社會那我們也看到就是說最近國安局他有有一份報告就是揭露了中共認知戰的五大手法這五大手法第一個他當然就是說透過的數據分析來就是分析我們台灣社會的一個動態再透過這個分析來了解我們目前的"},{"start":63.795,"end":89.091,"text":"可能是社會的輿論的主題啦或者是社會的狀況然後再透過第二個就是建制多元管道投放爭議的訊息來擾亂社會或者是利用異常的帳號滲透輿論還有運用AI生成泥漿的影像或者是進行枉害盜用國人的帳號這些手法主要都是要來破壞我們社會的一個安定其實那他的這五大手法"},{"start":90.012,"end":112.383,"text":"基本上跟我們速發部也都是息息相關的所以今天就是要來請教一下部長就是說針對這樣子的一個威脅我們速發部可以有什麼樣的一個具體的作為我們先來看一下就是有關多元我們舉例這個多元管道投放爭議的訊息最近應該部長也有注意到吧就是一個"},{"start":113.638,"end":122.013,"text":"很受到注目的一個訊息就是在群組這是基層群組或者是網路平台就是有這樣子一個訊息"},{"start":122.745,"end":150.526,"text":"在被轉傳大量的轉傳說這個高鐵還有台鐵有一個新的規定有一個優惠的措施結果造成了這個就是高鐵的服務人員真的是不堪其擾那這樣子的一個狀況據我了解高鐵公司他們也有透過就是說希望我們抒發部可以來協助把這一則訊息下架那我們抒發部當時我們是怎麼來處理"},{"start":153.588,"end":172.017,"text":"像這類的那種假的那個訊息那通常我們這邊的做法基本上分成幾個方面如果說它是獨立的網站的話我們會透過DNS、RPG的方式把這個整個網域把它封阻掉那如果是一些在平台上譬如說是在YouTube或者在Meta上面的話那我們就會"},{"start":172.897,"end":194.686,"text":"收到這個譬如說交通部他通知我們以後我們就會通知這些平台也趕快把這個訊息下架那一個關鍵就是說這個判斷必須是由主管機關在以這個這件事情來講的話應該是交通部他只要通知我我們就盡快把去處理那這個我們想我們的目標就是縮短這個下架的時間防止這個訊息去擴散"},{"start":197.268,"end":218.91,"text":"據我所了解是說高鐵公司有跟我們速發部反映之後你們是要他們自己去檢舉要他們自己跟YouTube平台去檢舉所以他們也花了很大的功夫才把這個訊息下架可是也拖延了一段時間那據說好像舊的版本下架了又有新的版本產生所以這樣子"},{"start":221.132,"end":247.345,"text":"的狀況真的一直在循環真的也是會造成我們社會的一個不安尤其他的這個用語我覺得真的根本就是共產黨的用語說勇於爭取鼓勵這些長輩要勇於爭取不然你的福利就會喪失掉了所以我覺得這個真的對我們的社會民心影響很大所以我們也希望就是說如何阻斷假資訊的一個快速"},{"start":248.398,"end":267.033,"text":"傳播我想這個部分我們速發部應該要有所作為是沒錯那我們這邊現在在推動一件事情就是我們會要求各大平台上面如果有那個AI產生的影像那個或者影片的話他必須是標示明確的標示說這是AI產生的那這個在技術上"},{"start":268.214,"end":297.515,"text":"事實上是可以做到的那個幾個方面可以做到第一個是一些比較大的這個公司它所產生的AI影像事實上會有浮水印那這些浮水印也許我們眼睛看不到但是都是可以用軟體可以來偵測的到的那我們現在就是去跟Google跟那個Meta我們去跟他們去談那就是希望說以後這些影片它都要明確的表示這個是一個AI產生的影片那我想請教一下部長就是說剛剛我們秀的這張圖卡它有"},{"start":298.075,"end":300.361,"text":"AI的一個標示嗎 有一個提醒嗎這個"},{"start":303.107,"end":330.759,"text":"這個在YouTube 抱歉個案我不是那麼清楚這個在YouTube上面轉傳的 傳播的因為我們剛才講的就是Google跟YouTube跟Meta這個部分比較好處理比較難處理的是Line因為Line是個人通訊產品因為我們國家的憲法會保障個人通訊的自由秘密通訊的自由所以這個地方我們在要求Line去處理的話"},{"start":332.02,"end":346.939,"text":"沒有問題這個事情我們跟LINE想辦法去溝通我們也希望他做標示YouTube的平台啦這個影片是從那邊投出來的所以這個部分就是希望我們抒發部這邊應該要有很明確的具體的一個作為"},{"start":347.96,"end":368.615,"text":"好 謝謝委員提醒那我們現在跟那個YouTube平台我是兩個禮拜前去San Francisco跟他們的總部去那邊談然後一個禮拜前他們那個亞太區總台又來台灣跟我談他目前釋放的訊息是正面的但是看來他們速度還是不夠快我們會催促他們盡快把這些機制看能不能盡快把它弄上去是 好"},{"start":369.375,"end":397.61,"text":"那我們接下來看就是中共他也會利用這個假帳號來滲透我們的社群媒體的平台就是說在我們國內如果說有些什麼重大的活動或者是重大的一個爭議的一些遊行活動的時候就會有很多的這個假帳號在鼓吹就是大家來參與或者是什麼一些不實的言論之類的那針對這一些大量的假帳號我們到底可不可以"},{"start":398.092,"end":425.911,"text":"怎樣去阻絕不要造成我們就是影響到社會的一個民心這個問題又分成兩部分一個是有一些帳號那個機器人帳號他會發假訊息那另外一個其實可能更嚴重的是什麼一些所謂的殭屍粉就是一個訊息出來以後下面一大堆點讚可能一萬個點讚其中有九千個其實是機器人帳號的點讚那這個事情一樣我們也是跟這個大型平台我們在溝通我們希望他去認證說這是真人的帳號"},{"start":428.892,"end":447.479,"text":"因為在中國他們是用網路實名制那通常在民主國家我沒辦法直接做網路實名制但是我們希望透過類似像是我們現在數位憑證批加等這個科技的技術就是認證而且是自願性的認證說我這個帳號是不是一個真人是不是一個台灣人他所開設的帳號"},{"start":448.619,"end":462.447,"text":"那在這個技術上應該是可行的那同樣的我們也是努力的在跟這個Google還有Meta這種國際的大平台努力跟他們溝通希望就是說他們在為了他們自己的商譽著想他們趕快把這些功能把它加上去"},{"start":463.191,"end":491.14,"text":"是好那我們接下來看就是有關運用AI生成擬真影音影片的這個部分那我們看到這樣子的一個就是用AI生成的假影音的這個狀況真的也是層出不窮那最近兩個就是很經典的很指標性的有一個是他用偽造就是一群學生他自稱說是台北市立建國高中的"},{"start":492.881,"end":518.735,"text":"建國高中建中的學生然後自己標榜說他們說台灣是中國的那當然這樣子的影音因為以我們台灣人的認知知道說建中就是南校所以一看就會知道這個是假的那另外一則就是編造這個于北辰將軍說稱讚這個解放軍軍演這樣子的一個編造的一個影音那針對這樣子的一個AI"},{"start":520.597,"end":530.254,"text":"就是變造的假影像這部分我們速發布有沒有什麼就是手段可以去做一些反制啦或者是防範的"},{"start":531.578,"end":551.164,"text":"OK 除了我剛剛講的這個一般性的AI那個身為的影音之外那我們就是希望是用標誌的方式來處理那另外就是對於公眾人物像于北辰將軍的話我們會這個我們會想辦法把它加入我們這個網照通報查詢網裡面的公眾人物保護名單那我們會通知那個"},{"start":551.744,"end":566.107,"text":"Google YouTube的這個平台就是他們用AI的技術發現如果是假冒這個不是于北辰將軍的帳號而假冒他影片的話他們應該是可以主動去進行一些攔阻的那另外我們的網站通報查詢網我們會"},{"start":567.068,"end":589.614,"text":"我們接下來趕快通知那個於北陳將軍就是說如果他遇到這種狀況趕快利用我們的通報查詢網來通知我們我們就可以很快的把這些訊息給下架了我們很重要的一件事情就是我們要縮短這些詐騙或者是假訊息的上架時間然後時間越短受害人數越少而且這個詐騙集團他的成本就會越高"},{"start":590.234,"end":617.066,"text":"那其實就是最近這應該是半年來啦就是有關這樣子的一個變造AI變造影像的其實除了於北辰將軍之後我們也有看到變造賴清德總統的變造那個那個政務副院長的是這些影片那我不曉得說這些AI變造的就是有像部長剛剛說的就是說因為是公眾人物我們就主動去發炫的嗎有這樣的狀況嗎"},{"start":618.886,"end":647.394,"text":"通常公眾人物就是我們如果是本人確認的話我們收到這個通知的話那我們就是有這個有這個依據我們就可以很快的去處理事實上也必須講就是說依照這個各國的法律應該都是這樣就是說公眾人物的肖像權保護反而是比較弱的比一般民眾是比較弱的那這個地方我們會想辦法在那個言論自由跟那個保護我們國家的安全上面我們必須取得一個平衡那我們會努力往這個方向去處理"},{"start":648.134,"end":671.978,"text":"我們知道人工智慧基本法就是在2025年12月23號已經三讀通過了就是一個基本法那當然我們的法令的一個制定都是我們都是朝向正面的一個方向可是我們看到事實上我們面對這個中共這個邪惡的政權他們是利用這樣子的一個"},{"start":672.458,"end":695.291,"text":"科技來要破壞我們的民主然後擾亂我們社會的一個安定所以就是說對我們國內啊如果說面對這些AI技術的一個就是變造啦或者是不好的這種運用的話我們在未來的這個就是這個基本法之後的指引上我們會可以有什麼樣的一個方向"},{"start":696.445,"end":720.218,"text":"OK 我們這個人工智慧基本法其中就是很大的一個目的就是要控管AI的風險那我們現在就是速發部我們實際上是三層立法架構在人工智慧基本法下面我們速發部訂定的人工智慧風險分類框架指引然後在這個指引下面我們會讓各個部會去訂那個作用法"},{"start":720.778,"end":749.369,"text":"那這個事情我們已經啟動因為我們現在那個風險範圍框架已經做好現在已經在那個要等在行政院那邊等著他們審議然後但是我們為了爭取時間已經先啟動跟那個各個部會就討論這個事情那譬如說國安的方面我們一定會找那個陸委會或者是國安單位我們會跟他討論接下來我們要怎樣進行立法或者修法想辦法把各種漏洞"},{"start":750.689,"end":775.787,"text":"賭注然後我們速發部有很重大的職責就是提供技術的方法還有這個執行這個所有這個那個違法的訊息的下架跟封鎖的事情是好就是我在這邊也要建議速發部啦就是說因為AI的這個技術進步非常快速運用也會非常的廣泛那我們也希望速發部應該隨時去就是收集觀察就是說在"},{"start":776.628,"end":789.142,"text":"這個運用上呈現的一個樣態尤其是不好的那我們應該要來做我們未來有因應的就是一些措施的一個參考這樣子是好 謝謝謝謝委員的提醒跟支持"}]}},{"id":"168235","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168235","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/70d8fc05dcd8abb00ea4db89c6c27e43f747912251df0827212c5ce4660756d3faa2c62ee39d587a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"魯明哲","委員發言時間":"10:22:16 - 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現在主席有請我們社會部林部長好 我們請林部長部長早委員長好 直接進入主題資安及國安這個是現在全民都很了解這個問題特別看到你的業務報告針對於這個資安問題你有從多面向立體性的希望能夠架構資安的一個網包括建構資安"},{"start":33.61,"end":59.32,"text":"智慧化的資安資安防禦的生態系打造資安科研團隊跟資安人才的培育我覺得這中間最重要的是資安的人才的培力是非常非常重要的因為很多的不管系統在AI在資安的一個防守端面對每一天的一個變化你真的我覺得這樣的一個專家的人才培育是非常重要的那你現在整個資安"},{"start":60.06,"end":87.282,"text":"我們的數位部站在第一線我們資安人才守得怎麼樣我們現在那個資安人才坦白講非常的缺因為台灣事實上資安產業非常的強他們開出的薪資條件非常好所以我們在留才的方面我們的確是遇到不少的挑戰所以我們想辦法就是提高我們資安人員的這個家籍還有一些那個留任的獎金等等我們想辦法把好的人才留住好"},{"start":88.343,"end":113.277,"text":"這個部長 是資安人才這麼難找又少了三位又少了三位是所以發展部滿滿的資安的一個願景政策結果沒想到這個案子敵人就在本能市就是我們認為說資安是一堵牆我們不光是自己資安守得好是整個國家的單位協助他們甚至有能力對一個重大的一個民間單位這是大家的一個期待是結果我們這個城牆裡面居然這個是3月20號"},{"start":120.397,"end":141.369,"text":"這個進電視的報導 當然很多新聞都有出來了 是這個標題實在是很難聽啦 最強內鬼就出現在國家治安院研究員寫成是害自家的系統 社運端包括許願池啊 因為X Max計畫等等的都不管嘛下面講的 包括原來有分級制的機密"},{"start":142.329,"end":168.631,"text":"機密文件結果因為這個系統一些也跳脫了不能看的也看了然後一次這個全部下載我覺得這個東西很離譜就是我們在這邊從唐副部長一直到林部長我們從第一天跟我們保證說成立數位部也好 數發部不管你怎麼叫它最大的目的最基本的一件事你知道嗎 最基本的最基本的一件事就要做到的結果"},{"start":169.372,"end":191.164,"text":"我們沒有做到居然在治安院裡面請問一下你是幾月幾號知道的這件事情我們在部長你幾月幾號接到報告你是說我還是那個我大概是一個多月前知道的三月幾號我不記得確定我大概知道大概一個多月前知道但是確實的信息我講不出來請一下院長院長"},{"start":193.817,"end":212.808,"text":"院長你知道這件事情這個嚴重程度不光是這個事件那事件我就不再描述了新聞媒體都有不管他怎麼說這三個人反正已經被解職了移送法辦了我也理解你知道這個事情嚴重在什麼因為這些人才怎麼來的誰選的什麼時候來的"},{"start":219.412,"end":241.487,"text":"我跟你講 數位發展部是民國111年8月份才成立的帶著國人的期待 國家安全 資安及國安這樣的有你們多一層保障 這樣的運營而生的結果資安院呢 是在112年隔一年的2月10號才掛牌正式成立"},{"start":242.347,"end":263.492,"text":"我們治安署又得力的駐守了很多的部分研究發展最棒的治安院來了當時我幾世民的前院長也跟我們溝通現在我發覺他在跟我們講的過程中就有人在惡搞了我就回想那段時間跟笑話一樣這第一個"},{"start":264.69,"end":290.356,"text":"那第二個是這個人三個人中間有一個位階是總監他是一個中心的總監除了主任副主任第三個就是總監實務性的很多作物都是作業總監在操作那這個總監這個職務不是一般研究員一個總監帶頭在幹這件事情他不是在總理他是他在監守治道的總監"},{"start":292.316,"end":310.803,"text":"但是他是在治安院112年2月10號成立他的任用日期是112年的1月16號也就是他是創院員啦我跟你講不是唐東部長用的就是什麼眾中之眾人才請問一下這個人誰用的資歷是不是比你還早啊"},{"start":315.141,"end":331.046,"text":"這位是,這位主管是在資安院成立前就有一個資安卓越中心的成立那在兩年前,更早的兩年前的成立的時候就進來然後隨著資安院成立並入資安院"},{"start":331.926,"end":351.144,"text":"所以有人看到會是112年的1月中他直接就轉過來了嘛對不對好 重中之重但不管嘛因為人才你要講這麼多願景要找適合人才尤其在治安的部分你自己要做好嘛就一來你給一個會降的"},{"start":352.505,"end":369.967,"text":"寫爬蟲城市自己在裡面弄來弄去這樣的人做了總監做了總監第二個他任用日期等於你職在醫院從第一天開始就在一個不安全之下因為之前不是你啦我是覺得這個事情是真的有很多思考的部分"},{"start":371.519,"end":394.256,"text":"那我一樣問院長院長我請問一下這個去年12月你們內部巡查發現真的啦我不是治安專家啦內部巡查我問了一下你說例行性的結果後面剪掉一查已經搞了一年多請問一下例行性是多例行是每一天run一次還是一個月例行一次你說一下"},{"start":395.74,"end":418.261,"text":"我們有經常性的以及年度的那我們這個檢查是在年度的時候發現的一年度一次 平常不檢查平常就有檢查 但是年度的檢查是會所以他要持續在這裡的一個資訊你平常的前幾次在持續中你檢查不到是你巡查的方式 巡查的軟體 巡查的手段出了問題你是治安院"},{"start":420.923,"end":449.201,"text":"蠻可怕的他已經一年多了結果在他抓到了12月那他11月呢 10月呢你之前的巡查咧你的警覺度在哪裡你告訴別人要警覺這個東西出了很大的問題你查到之後最後叫這個調查局進場然後你們三月多為什麼這麼久我不知道你們兩個距離這麼遠部長你來回答一下好不好那時候那個"},{"start":452.177,"end":472.608,"text":"部長 他12月發現 其實是蠻嚴重的包括他2月11號 他知道報請調查局就已經報到外面的單位了我們知道當時還沒有報到部裡面你覺得這種制度好嗎這件事情是由資安院主動發現 然後他們主動找調查局"},{"start":475.973,"end":503.322,"text":"知會嗎這麼重要的事情當然要跟我知會他們在那個找調查局的時候就已經跟我講說他們去找調查局了因為這個事情的發生像這種資安事件因為必須收集那個機證那在收集機證的過程中事實上是非常保密的就是說只有那個負責這件事情的幾位資安院的主管知道這件事情然後他們在收集到足夠的證據以後他趕快來跟我報告等一下 部長你要保密的是所有資安的資料是"},{"start":504.4,"end":526.266,"text":"你現在跟我講說你要保密這個犯罪的人我叫他 他該不該針對這個犯罪事件有三個人發生什麼事 細節不一定要跟你講跟資料外洩有什麼關係啊我覺得你會被害到 你知道嗎是 我也很擔心啊哪裡別人問到你 你問三不知我覺得這不是面子的問題這件事情就是說在"},{"start":528.169,"end":553.858,"text":"應該就是一個多月以前他們已經來跟我報告了所以我都有掌握到這個狀況那因為一開始我們也不曉得說那個牽涉的範圍到底是多大所以這個當然是在這個調查的過程中當初是非常好 最後一個問題請教你那現在三位實質有涉及刑罰犯罪資安不管問題的人現在已經檢調在調查很清楚那你這個中心的主任副主任"},{"start":555.253,"end":576.985,"text":"主任副主任咖啡好喝嗎茶好喝嗎還要喝多久就跟我沒關係他的總監犯了一年多時間一年多治安的問題然後咧到總監犯這種事情所以你的主任副主任是擺設是沒有用的或者沒有技術能力的院長你說說看主任副主任要不要負行政責任"},{"start":579.798,"end":599.756,"text":"確實是有行政責任 我們內部也深切檢討那因為在資安的內部監控 這是我們資訊處資訊的同仁在負責 不是那個中心的主管在負責所以這一部分的督導不屬於他們的責任你知道嗎 你的員工在做什麼"},{"start":602.793,"end":627.695,"text":"他完全都不知道他裡面已經有很多傳來傳去說該怎麼樣去做麻煩你寫爬中程式你要該怎麼樣去做有兩個人是元老一個人是後面才來的整個體系在你眼前在那邊去做所以你就坐在辦公室嗎你什麼都不知道所以未來我們對於你這個七個中心的唯一期待主任副主任他"},{"start":630.632,"end":652.291,"text":"下面有任何重大的事情如果你要記得一件事喔這件事情可大可小還在查證中喔如果事情爆得非常大的時候你在處理的時候那不是這樣喔所以他這樣的一個行為主任副主任勢必是要負責他一個直屬主管監督的一個責任部長 部長你在最後再做個回答好了"},{"start":652.987,"end":670.901,"text":"是 當然部長你管的機構這麼多我想說一句話是你也經常要必須負一些行政的一個責任政治的責任去負責你根本不知道的事情是對不對 什麼院發生什麼事什麼署下面的什麼科什麼事到最後請問一下大家會不會來"},{"start":672.423,"end":683.987,"text":"向你找答案一定嘛你跑不掉嘛你是主管所以我也希望你跟治安院好好去講一下這件事情不能說誰犯錯就大家其他沒事大家繼續我覺得絕對不行這件事情有嚴重的管理問題要去處理管理上的問題絕對會處理這不管怎樣我們絕對會處理謝謝委員提醒"}]}},{"id":"168234","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168234","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/70d8fc05dcd8abb0d8628e72aeb1eb551607b63c45e41aa0212c5ce4660756d3f8e03f26c378850b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳俊宇","委員發言時間":"10:32:33 - 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謝謝主席 有請蔡局長我們請局長好 局長早局長 當前這個全球的地緣政治正處於高度的動盪那也包括這個中東的這個美伊衝突以及這個印太地區的軍事威脅那每天在持續變動的當中我們今天國安局的夜報裡也用了很大的篇幅說明有關"},{"start":30.389,"end":50.009,"text":"中共目前的這個情勢策略還有統戰手法那我想今天能夠就這個內容不管是中共對內或對外相關政策跟台灣的未來來跟局長做一個討論那首先就是中共在2026年的這個全國人大政協"},{"start":51.59,"end":72.762,"text":"會議的這個兩會也在這個三月上旬在北京召開也在日前剛落幕那從這個李強所提出的政府的工作報告當中除了把設立台灣光復紀念日列為工作亮點那我們也看到經濟年度增長的這個目標調降設定在這個4.5到5%之間那這也是從1991年來這個"},{"start":78.525,"end":100.612,"text":"中國最保守的一次的一個數字不但無法在維持在5%以上的這個經濟成長目標也顯示出去年這個中共的經濟是增速且逐漸下滑的然而在這個經濟承受壓力的同時中共的這個國防預算仍然維持在7%的這個高成長達到1.91兆的人民幣規模"},{"start":105.234,"end":114.503,"text":"而在這個他們內部統治秩序經濟發展還有防範社會秩序群抗等這種自發性運動的這種維穩的經費更高達兩兆以上的這個人民幣遠超過於這個國防"},{"start":121.95,"end":148.156,"text":"支出的預算顯示即便這個經濟成長的速度減緩可是中共的這個武力擴張仍然沒有放緩的這個跡象而且內部全方位的這個監控管高壓的這個態勢也更加的明顯那我想請教局長就是從這次的這個兩會的政府工作報告當中我們如何去解讀中共所要傳達的這個訊息那我們又如何來解讀這種"},{"start":149.339,"end":151.638,"text":"資源配置所代表的相關意涵是什麼"},{"start":152.11,"end":179.705,"text":"好 謝謝委員的提問我想這次中共的兩會大概幾個重點那第一個重點是在解決中共自己內部的問題那就像委員剛剛所提到的不管中共在經濟增長的速度或是在國內的社會問題來民生問題來講問題都非常的多所以這次的兩會有點提出他們政府的一個治理的方案那希望能夠安定國內的民心那這對中共政權的穩定非常的重要所以我想這大概是中共兩會的第一個重點"},{"start":180.285,"end":209.598,"text":"那第二部分是在委員所提到的涉台的部分那我們判斷第一個就是基本的主調沒有改變但是那些統戰交流的手法有微調那基本的主調沒有改變那就是它的主調還是維持反獨促統這是基本的主旋律那但是在對台統戰的手法有做一些微調大概有幾個重點第一個就是在促容的部分那有結合到十五五的規劃那希望能夠在促容過程當中聚焦在台灣的青年"},{"start":210.098,"end":229.797,"text":"台灣的企業以及台灣的基層那讓這些特別鎖定的交往的對象可以享有同等待遇那這是他們特別去推宣的一個概念同等待遇那另外也特別結合到他15的規劃有特別去鎖定到台灣比較高科技的產業像是AI半導體還有相關的經驗機械的產業"},{"start":232.64,"end":261.741,"text":"希望能夠透過這些園區的開放引起更多台商台資願意到當地來做投資不過我也知道那個成效沒有那麼好是因為以2025年去年來講那我們對大陸的投資大概只佔了我們對外總體投資的佔比3.7%而已所以看起來那個成效並沒有那麼好主要原因是因為中國大陸內部投資環境確實有比較不穩定跟惡化那也造成台商在投資過程當中有所卻步"},{"start":262.321,"end":283.85,"text":"那第三個大概對台的促宣的重點是在文化的交流那委員可能也知道他們也提出所謂的促進民族的這些相關的法案那希望來透過文化宗教的交流能夠讓台灣對於兩岸的宗教文化同源能有更進一步的統戰效果所以大概以上是他們這次兩會的主要重點"},{"start":284.87,"end":308.12,"text":"還有更優惠的這種會台政策這個都是現在中國所提出的相關一些宣傳的誘因我想在中共今年這個兩會除了在報告當中我們也看到這個複查案就這個八起文化總編輯的這個被列為維護國家安全的一個重要案例之一"},{"start":308.76,"end":335.32,"text":"那他也通過了一部這個民主團結進步的促進法在今年的七月一號正式實施那這一部法律存在的相當大的一個爭議不但表示將依法追究破壞民主團結的這種行為更將不表態支持統一等同破壞民主團結甚至把台灣同胞聯誼會這個相關的條文納入先前就有這個學者示警這部法律將會讓中共在"},{"start":336.26,"end":362.497,"text":"任何不配合的這種行為之下嫁接到既有的行政法或是刑法形塑一個對台治理的假象甚至揚言可以對境外的組織或個人執法不但讓這個法律的紅線變得極為模糊更可能逼迫民眾表態支持統一那我想請問局長這部法律是否會導致我們台灣的民眾在中國大陸甚至在第三國"},{"start":363.297,"end":389.366,"text":"的時候可能遭受到更大的一個風險那中共接下來這個跨境鎮壓還有這個長臂管轄的作為是否會變本加厲那政府對這個法律有什麼樣的因應的做法好那針對中共通過民族團結促進法那剛剛有稍微跟委員說明一下我再做一些補充那大概他在第21條有特別提到要去鼓勵台灣同胞對中華民族的認同"},{"start":390.006,"end":414.486,"text":"那在第61條又就提到了,假如是破壞民主團結的話可以依法來追溯那我們認為他這是有點在進行對台的一個法律戰還有輿論戰的一個操作那可能象徵意義還是大於實質的意義因為畢竟台灣是一個主權的國家那我們中華民國政府也不容許中華人民共和國的法律在我們國內來實行所以他主要還是有一種"},{"start":415.266,"end":432.492,"text":"心理或心理戰跟法律戰輿論戰操作的一個綜合的一個手法在裡面那但是第二部分是委員所提到的我們可能要注意一下假如有國人要到對岸去那可能要特別警覺那在他的這些相關法制規範之下那可能在進出海關"},{"start":433.172,"end":461.711,"text":"那他會檢查你的手機那特別他有很多的法律條文的定義跟解釋非常的模糊那這會讓第一線的中共的執法人員有很大的一個權限來讓我們的赴訪的國人無端入罪所以這部分也謝謝委員的提醒我們這部分也希望國人在到大陸訪問過程當中要注意一下個人的人身安全以及手機裡面是不是曾經有瀏覽一些批評中共的網頁或相關的通話留言"},{"start":464.814,"end":478.867,"text":"今年兩會的另外一個議場是解放軍代表團創下習近平上台以來最大的一個將輔減少了38人並且也未依循過去的慣例編制副團長"},{"start":480.569,"end":503.839,"text":"那我想這也與近年來中共大規模清洗軍方高層有關那去年跟局長您巡打討論過,今年的這個人數越來越多今年包括這個軍委的副主席張又俠還有聯參部的參謀長這個劉正麗等高階的將領甚至這個政治局的委員馬興瑞等人也遭受到這個查處"},{"start":505.14,"end":521.298,"text":"那原先的七個人組成的中央軍委會,現在只剩下習近平跟張勝明兩人已經實質走向軍委主席的負責制這不但會導致決策鏈的一個縮短,那已經實質的走向軍委"},{"start":524.321,"end":548.705,"text":"主席的相關的負責制會讓我們台海的情勢造成更大的緊張態勢我想這也是大家所關心的一個主要的議題我想請問局長目前中共的軍隊權力高度集中於習近平一人對於短期長期中共在台海的作戰能力與風險我們國安局如何去評估這第一點"},{"start":549.125,"end":575.259,"text":"第二點針對這個張又俠還有劉振利的這個查處情形我們國安局目前掌握的這個狀況是如何可能會有一路整肅到明年的21大的可能嗎謝謝委員長期都有關注這個問題那也在這一部分有跟委員做一些觀念跟資訊的交流那我再把最新的狀況跟委員做一些補充那第二部分就是中共這種手法比較像是絕對效忠的清洗模式"},{"start":575.939,"end":601.26,"text":"所以清洗的那個規模非常的大那上將的部分我跟委員報告過中共上將的員額有33名但是現在只有4名的上將那包括他的軍委副主席張生明國防部長董軍東站的司令員楊志斌跟中站的司令員韓勝炎那其他的都是以低代高的這種戰缺的方式那在這樣的情況之下我們認為可能會影響到中共的聯合作戰"},{"start":601.98,"end":619.222,"text":"還有後勤協調的鍛煉的一個現象的發生那我們也是實際上局裡面有盤點過啦上將以下的中將大概有100多位有上百位那上百位裡面我們有針對中共"},{"start":620.163,"end":640.655,"text":"中將要晉升上將的條件做一些盤點它有兩個條件第一個是要任滿兩年的中將才能升上將那再來是你在擔任中將期間要歷經兩個職務的歷練才能升上將我們盤點了上百位的中共的中將在今年2026年跟明年2027年符合晉升條件的今年可能不到五個明年也不到五個"},{"start":641.155,"end":667.964,"text":"所以你可以想像這個整個他的一個指揮鏈在這樣子上降大量懸缺情況之下可能發生在連戰或後勤協調指揮上鏈路的一個鍛煉的一個風險那另外可能要注意到的是在這種情況之下短期來講也許可以讓習近平更加的掌控軍權但中長期來講那可能他在軍事決策上會比較出現的問題是在於大家都"},{"start":668.504,"end":692.831,"text":"表態政治正確而不敢在軍事的專業意見上提出跟可能領導人不同的一個意見那這會讓他的一個決策的視野比較線索那我們會注意到可能對於台海安全意涵的影響那之前也跟委員有討論過了過程當中會不會比較年輕的將領也會有積極要表現的機會而在台海有冒進的動作那這部分我們再來加強關注好"},{"start":693.451,"end":698.395,"text":"謝謝局長 那也請我們管局這邊持續掌握相關的資訊以確保我們國家的安全"}]}},{"id":"168251","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168251","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/70d8fc05dcd8abb014ed23dab951d1042d46cf68b7d09b75ce185cfc45202cc010497944ed0372c35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"10:52:44 - 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的完整成人的義務他們都要負但是我們的法律卻沒有給他們相對的權利那我認為這個對18到20歲的青年來說非常的不公平因為他們的權利跟義務並不對等"},{"start":231.9,"end":259.793,"text":"等於是他們責任上是大人但是權力上我們卻視他們為孩子所以我希望這個權力義務對等這樣的目標我們要一同來努力那最後呢我也要請教一下部長關於老宅延壽的事情因為其實我這邊有接到說我們現在這個老宅延壽的政策已經要開始實施了嘛這個這個金額補助也準備要開始到地方去了"},{"start":260.433,"end":287.159,"text":"但是呢我這邊有接到一些地方的意見就是說他們真的已經也實際去看了但是發現他們的空間沒有辦法裝設相關的設備因為其實這些老宅他們當初設計的時候有一些像是樓梯間的寬度不足沒有辦法裝扶手或者是他的基地根本就不足也沒辦法裝設電梯所以雖然我們有這樣的美意但是老宅當初的設計其實就跟我們想要補足"},{"start":287.739,"end":313.806,"text":"的這個保護管是無障礙設施啊電梯啊扶手啊這一些是就我們裝不上去那像這樣子的狀況該怎麼處理呢是不是我們可不可以內政部回去多討論這一些這已經不是個案了像我的選區都是很多就是真的五六零年代就開始有的建築那他們也很希望可以申請到這樣的老宅延售的補助而且其實他們就是這個政策的TA"},{"start":314.366,"end":331.572,"text":"但是卻現在沒有辦法使用到這樣的我們政府提供的這個措施這個要拜託我們部長也回去讓地方的同仁可不可以實際解決他們的問題報告委員我們是預計在五月底的時候呢開始在地方政府受理申請"},{"start":332.532,"end":347.278,"text":"那我有要求就是內政部還要加上經濟部跟衛福部也就是衛福部針對比較老者的部分包括這個你講的扶手或者是說其他的相關措施那經濟部的話包括節能減碳措施那內政部包括說外牆的這個修繕等等這些但是呢我們會透過我們可能會全額補助協助的這個包括建築師公會"},{"start":360.183,"end":384.825,"text":"就是建築師工會做了一項這個案件的時候呢他所需要的服務費是由內政部來負擔不用找這個申請者,地方政府不要負擔那現在內政部的全國專任的這個輔導團呢已經招標結束沒有問題地方政府還沒有所以地方政府如果他們透過譬如說相關的建築師或者土木技師或者其他的修繕工會那他們可以到現場去看"},{"start":386.627,"end":414.422,"text":"代替這個屋主說哪個地方是合法可以裝修跟合法可以補助的範圍而不是自己想自己講那這樣子會確保第一個未來的居住修算之後是安全的然後合乎他們的所需或者是說他們在申請的時候有沒有合乎弱勢的部分因為如果他是弱勢的話他申請的補助費會加碼會比較高那這個部分呢我們也督促各個縣市地方政府趕快進行招標的作業"},{"start":415.162,"end":443.177,"text":"那這些專任的建築師而且他們是有經驗的我想委員如果有到各地的老宅研修說明會我們都是請建築師來講他們輔助已經成功的案例是哪一些所以我的意思就是說第一個我無法做個案上面怎麼樣幫助會最好但是未來我們會透過這樣的機關然後減少這個行政的流程會比較快可以達成好 謝謝部長我再補充一下其實我們那邊的案例都是看得到吃不到"},{"start":443.937,"end":451.785,"text":"所以我就 我覺得沒有 我覺得委員您這樣講不太公平第一個我們五月底會正式對外公佈第二個我們現在的補助項目有一些部分的話一定要是合法的建築如果它的建築是違章那當然我們不太可能補助但是可以補助哪一些項目會達到他們所需我是建議還是經過我們可以授權的"},{"start":468.6,"end":491.61,"text":"這個地方上面的專業技師來幫忙做評估跟申請我覺得這樣子最恰當而不是說看不到吃不到那如果說真的看不到吃不到是因為我們的這個立法院通過給我們三年的計畫就只有50億如果按照現在要有好幾十萬的老宅要處理的話當然是不夠OK當然需求量也很大沒錯這個也是要跟部長再拜託我們多編一點預算也拜託立法院我們多通過一點預算好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168250","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168250","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/70d8fc05dcd8abb01c395aab9e8be43b2d46cf68b7d09b75ce185cfc45202cc09d0dce7f622c2f575ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王美惠","委員發言時間":"10:37:30 - 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回答一下這個制度"},{"start":143.779,"end":160.362,"text":"報告委員,依照選罷法的規定,那個選舉公告發布前,發布後就要適用新法所以說這個條文如果是在選罷法發布後,那選舉公告發布後才施行的我現在就是,你說你們的立場,你們的選法啦不要緊張啦,今天是大家做參考,可以讓這個法"},{"start":169.564,"end":183.457,"text":"還好啦,因為我覺得選舉的時候,說實在,很神聖的,不能亂來,像我們說,整個都由中選會去做的時候,你覺得中選會有辦法去選擇嗎?像嘉義市就好了,嘉義市的中選會,"},{"start":194.246,"end":213.579,"text":"那最大的那個什麼人你知不知道主委 主任委員跟什麼人下去擔任的你知不知道主任委員一般都是由地方政府的三長就是縣長 副縣長或秘書長對啊 所以說齁處長 我要跟你談到的就是說我們如果有合作的時候地方政府的秘書會更順暢跟你如果跟你們單一你們獨立的"},{"start":222.544,"end":237.716,"text":"這個人數,你們要調配也好,台獨話也好,說我們將近六十八歲,可以在今年度,來算去將近四十幾萬人的時候,這也是需要調配餒,處長,這不是說我們中選委會說的,把我們給發動去承擔餒,你發動補充什麼沒有來,"},{"start":249.717,"end":273.409,"text":"報告委員那所有選舉從總統到村里長其實選務跟選政都是一體適用的那所以說我們才剛剛的報告裡面才會說我們也是同意內政部的意見就是說這依照內政部的組織法裡面選政是內政部來辦理那選務的部分是中選會辦理那這個選政選務的分立跟他的合作跟配合"},{"start":273.829,"end":286.279,"text":"那向來就合作的非常的良好所以我們才會建議說還是依照現行的制度規定來辦理因為我擔心的就是說未來如果都是你們去處理的時候你們的經費也有問題啦到你們目前為止你們有55個人在裡面的編制裡面"},{"start":294.625,"end":304.933,"text":"但萬一說 這樣分析的時候 評估的時候這會動人 立法會他們的想法會如何 主席你回答一下報告主委齁 報告委員齁沒關係 大家來 我是立法會 我們國會立法會慢慢來沒關係那就是說 就是那個中選會齁那除了說 因為我們中選會跟地方選會都是所謂的骨幹型組織啦"},{"start":323.328,"end":344.795,"text":"就是我們的員額都非常的精簡那除了說平時都有調用地方的人員當任長兼人員之外那選舉期間依法也會調用地方政府的人員來兼任選務那所以說在選務的負擔跟作業的辦理上有很大的部分是要仰賴地方政府的協助那所以這個選政選務分立的這種目前的狀況那我們還是建議說還是維持現行的規定"},{"start":351.517,"end":379.294,"text":"才可以有效的跟地方政府來協力合作 以上這樣好 處長在這禮拜來 麻煩你如果說有會合意怎麼做 怎麼規定的時候拜託送一份來內政部 好不好 委員會不是啦 我是真白的就委了沒有 遵照委員的指示辦理 謝謝"},{"start":380.239,"end":396.596,"text":"喔 我想說你也贏一個 再來 來 處長 壓制 來 我們的內政部部長喔在這個選舉裡面 我覺得很矛盾的啦 因為我覺得不管帶一黨都一樣啦"},{"start":401.821,"end":412.604,"text":"因為剛才我們有看到總統的情形,因為大家要選舉的心都會寫他的資料,來去選舉委員會報名,看你是要參選市長、參選館長、參選代表,還是議員,主要你都寫的,在這幾天的改變就是,"},{"start":426.875,"end":443.445,"text":"他的學歷,以前都有無窮的,所以我們規定說,在大學以上,一定要有他的比較正式,要不然在這個規定,我們最近的草草鬧鬧,白色也看不到什麼什麼"},{"start":445.954,"end":448.056,"text":"會覺得說,他就說算了,跟武家兩黨換一邊,幾黨換一邊的當中說實在,這審核的機制"},{"start":459.025,"end":464.15,"text":"報告委員審核學歷是嗎?審核學歷跟有雙重國籍嗎?那個是選務的部分,請中選會"},{"start":477.786,"end":489.239,"text":"報告委員,那關於說候選人的學歷的部分,那主要是依照選罷法47條的規定啦,就是大學以上的學歷不是啦,我現在啦,你說這個我知道,現在的學歷就是這幾年來,你們都沒辦法去選了嘛,有的才到高校,他的資料寫大學的"},{"start":500.151,"end":520.671,"text":"我建議你去說,大學的時候要有筆劃,只是日本不可以那樣,還可以認定它是大學筆劃,這我知道,我是說,再來我們的雙重國籍,不管你是哪一國的,包括大家有異性,"},{"start":523.271,"end":528.896,"text":"加二次出動營就位,人家都叫他出公道啦"},{"start":531.07,"end":548.984,"text":"他要開始做立法委員啦他雙重國籍他在美國的時候是終身的教授啦他為了愛台灣為了要台灣好呢為了他要信任他是中華民國台灣的立法委員他啦,他美國的國籍"},{"start":558.157,"end":561.339,"text":"是對啦,他才會當作台灣中華民國的立法委員啦那就是雙重國籍啦現在我要說雙重國籍的時候"},{"start":571.847,"end":580.298,"text":"報名安心讓他們自己寫這這樣才有誠意 才有努力我今天如果有跟我說你寫沒有 說實在的沒有你是要怎麼做啦你也沒有辦法查啦 你有辦法查嗎來 回答一下"},{"start":589.074,"end":607.61,"text":"報告委員那目前的公職人選舉裡面除了總統副總選舉他的效益資格有規定不得有雙重國籍之外那立委到村里長以下他都並沒有有列雙重國籍為這個消極資格那如果說他就職之後是應該依照國籍法規定"},{"start":609.391,"end":620.674,"text":"雙重國籍沒關係候選人登記的時候,他不是規定為消極資格?對啦,是依照國籍法20條的規定對啦,所以我要說喔,大家早早留留喔,要有時間喔,大家為了這個,在這裡爭執啦"},{"start":635.678,"end":643.541,"text":"我認為你們的法律要去修好,你們若說我沒有雙重國籍,我覺得真的有我剛才說的,我覺得有,但你寫沒有,不然你要怎樣辦就是像剛才這樣,我覺得這時候你不要因為這樣"},{"start":659.242,"end":681.444,"text":"這樣真的不好,我們應該去趕快找法律,看怎麼處理,不然內政委員會公裁也蠻辛苦的報告委員,有關國籍法20條的規定,那他是在就職的時候向他的任職機關提出是否有雙重國籍的這些切解,並不是由中選會來辦理,以上"},{"start":685.207,"end":696.497,"text":"我說實在我今天實在沒什麼脾氣也很奇怪我是如果你們說去登記的時候登記的時候你們要審核的時候我們後面是不是有一個條例可以說要審的時候就來審就好不用這麼麻煩啦"},{"start":707.671,"end":712.793,"text":"阿威沒資格,我們沒資格還可以做啦現在我說喔,如果這裡的時間浪費在這裡,真沒差啦我輸掉了,我再跟你說啦,來啦,去做啦來,主席拜託,跟兩分錢給我,我跟部長說一下"},{"start":725.777,"end":731.641,"text":"不好意思,說得氣死我了在這裡說實在的,最近你看到不管是電視也好、手機也好、網路也好酒駕和獨駕這個過程當中,我也看你發表意見不過說實在的"},{"start":750.325,"end":759.592,"text":"我在嘉義的黑服務衛生,我都騎著摩托車,有時在兩、三禮拜的進展,我看到獨家的人開車,在等紅燈前的摩托車給撞到"},{"start":766.837,"end":780.692,"text":"但是在這個過程當中,我都常常想說,我們一個志向人,一個守規矩的人,去做這些工作,或是做這些工作,我認為那個法,法律上過程,所以說未來,包括補助率也好,司法也好,"},{"start":788.24,"end":797.911,"text":"可以早日來拉這個法,稍微多一陣子,因為在這個過程當中,我也要來補充說,為什麼很多人說疫情大嗎?是怎麼我們的鹽吃毒的時候,沒有鹽大嗎?"},{"start":808.547,"end":829.939,"text":"我所了解,是因為我們的營業時的費用,所以保證,我問問,這個費用不能省,一定要營業給退退,我們才有辦法改變中華民國台灣的制度、的環境,所以保證,我問問,我們這個"},{"start":832.56,"end":860.627,"text":"酒醉也好,渡假也好,可以越來越久因為看現在的事情,可以這個家庭破碎所以我們不問我們的法,沒關係因為大家認為,跟這個天氣我們沒什麼要不然滴水這個家庭的時候,煙變很大所以普天我跟您在這邊,因為我不問,我們可以沒關係"},{"start":862.345,"end":883.171,"text":"如果這個法,整個單位來看要怎麼樣是,感謝委員的提醒委員剛才講到保安,包括獨駕跟酒駕,我們希望可以提高刑責那有關獨駕的部分如果是累犯的話,希望朝著就是預備殺人啦那但是這個我們需要跟法務部還有司法院一起來配合,那我們會盡速來辦理"},{"start":884.571,"end":890.057,"text":"因為我知道這幾天的單位了 是不過我們要趕緊 才有辦法去分支 再發生 再發生是 了解 以上 主席"}]}},{"id":"168249","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168249","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/70d8fc05dcd8abb004715cc1fd21e1572d46cf68b7d09b75ce185cfc45202cc09d0dce7f622c2f575ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李貞秀","委員發言時間":"10:27:34 - 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行政院算不算目無法紀擴增行政權力 影響己有的法令程序破壞了權力分立的原則處長能回應嗎中選會是獨立的選務機構欸"},{"start":187.694,"end":216.803,"text":"抱歉 這個我尊重每一位被尋觀言的發言的權利哇 民進黨大家有所有國人都在看齁今天中選會變成民進黨的中選會了嗎中選會不是一直要維持那個行政中立嗎今天 我先做那個我們質詢當中如果有程序發言的話應該是在詢答結束之後才有程序發言"},{"start":225.182,"end":247.356,"text":"現在已經在詢問當中了每一位行政官員無論有沒有發言或沉默都是一種意見的表達我充分尊重每一位官員發言的權利謝謝主席處長所以你認同行政院這樣的做法嗎?中選會還算不算獨立的選務機構?"},{"start":248.797,"end":278.017,"text":"人事令不發布所造成的影響你知道嗎這個問題不僅是程序問題更會實質影響中選會的運作影響人民基本權利的行使本市要進一步確認若中選會人士無法如期到任人民選舉權利和公民投票權等基本憲法保障的參政權利會遭遇到什麼樣的影響那中選會現在是不願意回答還是回答不出來"},{"start":279.485,"end":307.145,"text":"我繼續再請教處長目前在人事未定的情況下候選人保證金數額是否能夠在五月初前如期確定新提出的公投案審查及辦理程序會不會受到影響再來九合一選舉的選務有沒有什麼樣的應變機制來確保不受影響現在回答不出來可以會後給我書面答覆 謝謝"},{"start":308.871,"end":322.416,"text":"本席要呼籲中選會作為選務機關核心的職責是確保選舉與公投制度的穩定運作不能因人事或政治因素產生停滯"},{"start":323.755,"end":352.566,"text":"面對目前人事令遲未發布所造成的制度不確定中選會應該要責成行政院盡速完成法令程序確保選務正常推動保障人民憲法所賦予的參政及投票權利不受影響另外也要請教處長針對本次公職人員選舉罷免法第26條的修法方向內政部立場是什麼"},{"start":355.092,"end":360.82,"text":"中選會的立場 這個應該是要問內政部啦 內政部選舉 抱歉抱歉 選舉應該是要問那個處長才對 問中選會就是要請問內政部及中選會的那個立場是什麼這一次公職人員選舉罷免法第26條的修法方向"},{"start":372.876,"end":390.224,"text":"這次的修法不是單一政黨的主張是跨黨派的共識有民進黨的委員說明現行制度下出現判刑較重者反而可以參選緩刑者卻不能參選的情形確實存在制度上的不合理"},{"start":391.064,"end":416.422,"text":"本黨團所提出的版本也提出明確將受緩刑宣告或異刑處分者排除在限制之外使制度更具彈性與合理性這次修法不會放寬重大犯罪的規範是要處理現行制度過於僵化的問題特別是現行條文僅以刑罰執行狀態作為判斷標準"},{"start":419.344,"end":444.484,"text":"沒有區分犯罪性質也沒有檢視其與職務連結或選舉公正之實質關聯導致對部分人民參政權產生過度的限制社會上雖然有不同的修法意見但制度本身應該要保留合理的彈性避免對人民參政權有過度僵化的限制本席想問內政部是否支持這個也請書面回應 謝謝"},{"start":449.711,"end":477.082,"text":"這一次的修法並沒有放寬對重大犯罪的規範而是要將限制參政權的標準回歸憲法所要求的實質關聯以符比例原則唯有透過精準且合理的制度設計才能維護乾淨選舉的同時兼顧更生理念與基本權的保障確保我國民主制度的正當性與可持續性"},{"start":478.55,"end":505.297,"text":"最後本席要再次呼籲行政院應該要盡快通過中選會的人士請回歸正軌不要再違法違規然後再來我還要問那個再一次請教劉部長因為一直都沒有得到那個回應就是先請教中選會村里長的村里長 陸配村里長所有的村里長的單選證書是不是中選會發出的"},{"start":507.97,"end":537.561,"text":"是嗎 包括我本人 中選會的單選證書不是中選會發陸配村里長的不是啊對啊 應該都是你們發的吧 好像前面有確認那劉部長本席今天代表陸配族群 再一次OK 好好 反正就是說你們 我應該說呼籲你們去年苛扣陸配村里長的年終慰問金 拜託盡快就是依法補發 謝謝 以上 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部長 處長今天我們主要是聚焦在選罷法的修正那當然有不同的版本那其中有關於就是被判緩刑的期間是不得參選的部分剛才我們已經聽到民進黨的委員林淑芬委員做出了她的提案的說明"},{"start":34.873,"end":38.978,"text":"那剛才呢我也有仔細聆聽我們幾位民進黨委員大概都是聚焦在18歲以下的這個選舉權那比較沒有去觸及到這個緩行是不是要卡參選的問題"},{"start":51.391,"end":77.365,"text":"那所以有關於這個的修法現在看起來包含三黨都有提案那我也很仔細看了一下我們包含內政部跟中選會所提出來的報告以及剛才劉部長提出來的報告感覺上對這一部分我們內政部還是有保留的"},{"start":78.365,"end":82.188,"text":"但是呢我看到中選會所以在這一點我也請劉部長來聽聽看我有仔細看中選會的報告裡面的第四頁也許請處長可以做更詳細的說明那有關就是說我們在判處這個緩刑的部分到底可不可以說不能夠去登記為候選人"},{"start":102.884,"end":127.049,"text":"中選會提出了另外一個就是地方制度法也就是說我們現在地方制度法的規定因為第一個你可能是在被判緩席期間你不得去登記參選但是同時有一個狀況就是比如說以我個人來講我現在是民意代表我現在是立法委員"},{"start":128.169,"end":149.971,"text":"假使我被判緩刑的處分那我會不會因此而消失我這個公職人員的資格呢按照我們目前地方制度法的規定請問一下我有沒有就是我被判緩刑的話是不是就要被解除我的職權或職務"},{"start":153.015,"end":177.703,"text":"我們中選會中選會可不可以先做答覆因為這是你們的報告是 包委員那原本現行112年規定說緩刑不得參選是說為了端正罪行的一個觀念就是說對 這我知道我現在問你按照現在的地方制度法如果是依照地方制度法的規定民選的公職人員那如果說"},{"start":178.939,"end":188.388,"text":"判處這個79條第一項第四款前兩款那就是等於說第二款跟第三款以外之罪的話他如果說"},{"start":189.758,"end":211.851,"text":"如果說原本現行的規定是說如果未受緩刑宣告的話是要解除職權跟職務的那換句話說如果受緩刑宣告我就不必解除我的職務吧這個就是說當然緩刑宣告可不可以登記為候選人這是一個政策的選擇我知道我知道我剛才已經講得非常清楚嘛我只要以現行的地方制度法規定"},{"start":212.691,"end":242.251,"text":"我是現在民選的公職人員然後我被判這個宣告緩刑然後我會不會因此而必須去撤出我的職務現在的地方制度法非常明確的規定不會嘛對不對不會因為他如果受緩刑宣告的話他就不會被解除職務好這個我這個謝謝中選會的說明因為我剛才就是說你們的報告有提到現行的地方制度法"},{"start":242.551,"end":244.012,"text":"所以部長我為什麼提到我們中選會的報告也就是說這個提案我剛才講這是一個三黨都有相關的提案第二個中選會也提出來現在地方制度法的規定所以我覺得我們不可能一國兩制"},{"start":264.423,"end":293.578,"text":"也不可能一個民意代表或者民選的公職人員他有兩個制度也就是說他如果被判緩刑他就不能夠去登記參選但是我是現任的現任被判緩刑反而不用解除職務這個中間事實上確實有漢格的地方以及邏輯不通的地方那另外呢我也要特別提到除了林淑芬委員她剛才有"},{"start":294.578,"end":316.222,"text":"講到很多他的提案說明之外包含莊瑞雄委員他現在也是民進黨團的幹事長當時在修法的時候他有一段說法他說總統跟副總統有很多的特權在參選的限制上比較嚴格所以才會特別另立總統副總統的選罷法"},{"start":318.923,"end":341.261,"text":"否則的話他就按照選罷法就好啦大家一體適用就好啦那所以他說至於選罷法因為你規範的還下至村里長上至縣市首長立委那這些呢他跟總統和副總統的權利是沒有相對應的所以他覺得如果通通比照總統和副總統的選罷法他認為這樣的立法理由是說不通的"},{"start":346.986,"end":362.319,"text":"那當然莊烈雄委員因為他現在是幹事長他當然以他的身份他不適宜去提案但是我要講的就是說現在緩行卡參選其實有他諸多不合理之處這個並不是單一黨派去提出來的"},{"start":367.003,"end":380.879,"text":"另外我也想特別提到一個案例就是在之前立法委員選舉的時候台南市議員王家珍他當時是被助理費 辦助理費去辦他"},{"start":382,"end":401.874,"text":"可是後來其實法官發現他沒有把任何一毛錢放到自己的口袋當時王嘉臻的助理費是因為他有兩個助理因為他是被法院強制處分他為了要照顧他的助理的安家生活"},{"start":402.694,"end":425.434,"text":"所以呢他提高了另外的助理的費用然後去補貼這兩位的助理因為否則的話他所有的這個他的薪水會被做強制執行所以法官也認為說他其實沒有任何貪污的問題因為他沒有拿任何的一毛錢放到他自己的口袋那但是呢法官因為辦了嘛最後呢就"},{"start":427.176,"end":433.838,"text":"還是 就是判他緩刑 當時應該是用所謂的 就是偽照文書因為沒有辦法用助理費來辦他嘛 因為他沒有貪污好 結果呢 王嘉先生當時要去參選立法委員的時候就因為 他當時其實可以選擇 他可以去議科罰金他去找的罰金也沒事 可是他認為我無罪啊我為什麼要去找這個罰金 結果呢 他就因此"},{"start":455.046,"end":462.048,"text":"而被判這個就是判緩刑而且被剝奪了選舉權所以這事實上是非常不合理大家看起來是說喔對啊如果你貪污啊如果你有其他的這個相關的這個違法情形你就不應該登記參選但是王家臻這個就是一個例子你以為他是貪污結果他不是他是照顧他的助理但是呢他因為這樣卡了他參選權"},{"start":483.593,"end":505.188,"text":"所以我在這邊要講的就是說 我想中選會會去提防地方制度法 它已經發現這個問題了我們不可能兩個法律是有漢格的 同樣一個人只是一個是在他爭取參選之前被判緩刑 你就不能參選另外同樣的人 我在擔任這個民選公職人員 我就算被判緩刑我也"},{"start":505.988,"end":510.993,"text":"沒有傷害我任何的這個職務所以這個中間是有漢格所以我希望內政部把我剛才所講的這些不管中選會的意見或者各黨派的意見或者像王家珍這樣的一個案例"},{"start":523.485,"end":526.887,"text":"應該去做通盤檢討而不是面對這個修法的時候就是拒人於千里之外我想這個是必須要針對這個緩行的部分那個修法來做一個就是說希望我們內政部能夠從善如流"},{"start":543.197,"end":570.454,"text":"那另外就是剛才比較多委員去琢磨的就18歲以下的參政權這個部分剛才部長也一直說各黨派通通都支持那沒有錯在過去這個不管是修法或者公投各黨派通通都是支持的那這一次也有幾位委員有提案那其實我要再講一下就是說"},{"start":571.354,"end":573.014,"text":"比如說以國民黨內部來說確實有人跟我講說你們去做這樣的一個主張你們這樣主張國民黨的支持者可能年輕人不支持國民黨啊對你的選舉未必有利啊但是我覺得一個法治一個就是18歲的參政權"},{"start":592.879,"end":601.706,"text":"不應該去涉及任何的一個政黨或者任何一場選舉的利益這邊當然大家都講了就是說以現在國內來說我們在其他的各個這個相關的法律其實18歲都已經擁有很多權利但是呢現在呢看起來就只有投票是有限制的"},{"start":614.375,"end":617.216,"text":"那我要講我個人為什麼我強烈的支持18歲可以選舉因為我們這套憲法沒有錯我們這套憲法大概起碼是六七十年前所訂定的憲法當時規定20歲才能夠有選舉權大家想想看那個時候還有多少文盲啊當時的資訊"},{"start":640.865,"end":648.573,"text":"根本不普及當時的教育也不普及如果時隔六七十年我們還抱住這個憲法裡面規定的20歲才能夠去選舉我覺得華天下之大吉真的就是"},{"start":657.242,"end":659.082,"text":"很脫節跟時代太脫節了所以我個人我完全支持這個18歲的一個公民權18歲的選舉權剛才部長有講他說哎呀也不是各個政黨都有提案但是我相信這個提案會得到跨黨派委員的支持"},{"start":678.867,"end":699.437,"text":"這一點完全無庸置疑 我認為完全無庸置疑不管以現階段我們18歲的這個民眾他們所享有的權利之不對等或者是六七十年的憲法當時的整個的環境教育資訊的背景根本跟現在不可同日而語"},{"start":700.938,"end":715.245,"text":"當然18歲應該享有選舉權所以我想這一點也是希望不管是有關於就是判緩刑者 宣告緩刑者不應該去剝奪他的一個選舉登記權或者18歲的一個選舉權我認為以內政部來說應該都是去支持的 好不好"},{"start":726.951,"end":732.788,"text":"這點我想最後一點點時間部長就是我剛剛講在緩行的部分我剛剛已經講那麼多了"},{"start":737.898,"end":758.144,"text":"謝謝委員的指教有關18歲公民權的部分我想剛剛我已經表達過我也希望說大院能夠研議相關的法治程序那我們都會尊重那有關於緩刑的部分我也跟委員報告一下在中選會的報告裡面他們提到的是地方制度法但是我們今天討論的是有關選罷法所以有關選罷法的部分中選會的立場跟內政部是一樣的"},{"start":763.746,"end":787.441,"text":"在同樣的報告案裡面他有提到在緩刑期間是否限制其登記為候選人是仍有審慎斟酌餘地這是剛剛王委員在提問中選會的官員的時候他們所寫的書面報告那我們的書面報告也寫得非常的清楚就是本條文是貫徹青年參選的立法意旨"},{"start":787.941,"end":797.995,"text":"是否相符一再審酌那既然是有審酌跟斟酌的餘地的話呢我也會覺得說可能各個委員各個不同的面向我們還是有討論的餘地"},{"start":799.361,"end":818.432,"text":"醫院講說所謂青年參選我剛剛講以王家珍的案例他比如說他是助理費的話那當然可能涉及到這個貪污自罪條例但是後來他根本跟那個沒有關係連法官都認為他沒有任何的一毛錢進入他的口袋所以我的意思說今天就不應該有這樣的錯殺條款"},{"start":821.173,"end":831.002,"text":"我們在選政機關大概無法對個案來做任何的評析我擔心我用這個例子來做因為這個看起來好像是公平的但事實上未盡公平"}]}},{"id":"168247","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168247","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/70d8fc05dcd8abb05d09f6eb57a405a02d46cf68b7d09b75ce185cfc45202cc08403647dd55c224a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張宏陸","委員發言時間":"10:03:30 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如果你一直解決這些問題其實最根本的解決方法我們大家都知道 就是修憲修憲然後公投修憲後的 對 就是修憲後的 這個是最基本解決的我們今天如果只有處理這一塊還有很多的權力 他們沒有辦法拿到我簡單舉一個例子就好了"},{"start":94.619,"end":100.673,"text":"如果你修憲公投你修憲之後18歲可不可以參加國家考試"},{"start":103.556,"end":129.43,"text":"18歲可不可以參加國家考試 好像不行可以吧 可以啊 因為你已經下修18歲啦他有這些成年的資格啦就當公務員 對啊考試服公職 是可以啊對不對 如果你修憲過後你18歲 而且很多國家也是18歲就可以啦對不對 我舉這個就是一個很明顯的例子就是說我們都不反對18歲有公民權"},{"start":130.33,"end":139.981,"text":"但不是這樣子挖一塊補一塊挖一塊補一塊最主要的是我們如果修憲之後很多的權力他可以一次倒位對不對部長"},{"start":144.393,"end":161.681,"text":"應該是說除了選罷法以外你要把憲法下面跟18歲的公民權應該有的權利義務一致來考量那這樣子的話對於我們賦予年輕人他所有的整體的完整的公民權益的保障才會比較完整"},{"start":162.501,"end":191.36,"text":"對啦 我的意思就是這樣嘛你既然要18歲 你就是有公民權你應該要給他的權利優惠一次到位我的意思就是這樣嘛那我們都不反對啊那都不反對的情況下 你今天只處理這一個我覺得還是掛一漏萬 還有很多那我們當然不反對 但是我們還是要在這邊要講要走正途啦 做實事啦要嘛 就是修憲一次把它解決"},{"start":193.041,"end":206.848,"text":"我的看法是這樣啦不知道部長你覺得勒是 我想我們對於年輕人希望有18歲的公民權大概每個黨的立委都贊成但是這一次的這個選罷法的修正案"},{"start":208.068,"end":233.558,"text":"除了民眾黨黨團是異形的這個部分以外其他的國民黨黨團或民進黨黨團並沒有黨團的修正案出來所以我想說可能各個黨團在考量到是不是屬於憲法下面的要保障18歲公民權還有很多有待這個心格的部分有待商量所以我們才會建議說是不是可以透過公聽的方式來聽聽各種不同的法學者的意見"},{"start":234.654,"end":254.49,"text":"對啦 法律的程序的完備也是一件我們要考量的事情這是另外程序上的要考量那另外 部長如果啦 我們在這個會期如果啦 18歲就這個選八法我們如果修正18歲"},{"start":256.498,"end":282.977,"text":"預估啦 預估啦年底多出來的這個選舉人口大概好幾十萬吧應該四五十萬有吧報告委員你講的沒有錯齁選舉人預估增加四十一萬一千七百三十一人如果我們下修十八歲那其中六都所佔的比例非常的高也就是說我們考慮到說選舉年齡馬上下修然後馬上用到今年年底的選舉的時候呢其實對於每個黨"},{"start":285.519,"end":300.832,"text":"這個我覺得我要問的就是因為今天中選會有沒有但選政機構也是內政部嘛那選務當然是中選會跟地方選委會要去處理的但"},{"start":302.133,"end":313.379,"text":"我個人認為你忽然多出了這麼多這個選舉的作業期程來不來得及啊這個可能要問中選會那個中選會我剛請教的如果說一下子增加了那麼多好幾十萬 四十幾萬人那你們的造冊你們的這些東西來不來得及"},{"start":332.663,"end":354.562,"text":"報告委員 那個選舉人名冊造冊依法是在投票日的前20天要完成那前20天的話 那今年是在11月28日投票那如果是在這之前的話 應該是如果在戶籍登記資料上都有這些增加了選舉人的資料 這應該是可以完成的但是這個會增加了很多的選舉經費 例如說選舉票然後這些部分 還有選舉公報這些這些經費都會增加以上"},{"start":362.002,"end":369.06,"text":"除了經費等等增加之外你的投開票所的配置你不用重新檢討嗎"},{"start":370.693,"end":393.76,"text":"這個部分因為因應這個投票人數的增加那這部分都需要再檢討包括說投外票所是否要增設那投外票所裡面的工作人員是不是要增加這些都是要一併檢討以上不是啦這一併檢討所以我說啊這些增加的什麼這些你認為忽然這樣子的話地方選舉委員會有沒有能力負擔"},{"start":395.13,"end":410.311,"text":"這可能會比較倉促一些會比較倉促一些會比較倉促一些嘛對嘛其實有辦過實際選舉的人都知道如果忽然這樣這個整個民政體系的壓力會非常非常的大"},{"start":411.612,"end":438.53,"text":"這個造冊不是那個隨便寫一寫的然後你的選票運製你的投開票所的設置什麼要重新檢討耶甚至你的投票箱也有可能要增加設置是不是啊是這方面是是嘛所以在這種情況之下你們如果有遇見到如果有這種你們現在開始作業來得及嗎"},{"start":440.937,"end":464.431,"text":"何志強請問你不要到時候選舉有問題喔來得及嗎目前如果說能及早知道這個修法通過的與否的話那現在開始啟動檢討作業應該是還可以來得及你確定喔你有跟地方縣市選委會溝通過了嗎你有去問過他們的意見了嗎目前我們還沒有跟地方選委溝通過對啊那你幫人家回答"},{"start":466.719,"end":490.895,"text":"縣市選委會你都沒有問過你幫人家回答啊出了問題責任你要扛還是他們扛這個部分我們會再檢討不是啊你剛剛回答的你要檢討什麼啊是你剛剛回答的餒對不對啊如果有問題你要負責任喔這個部分我們會再重新做來評估你不能這樣講對不對我是在地方辦過選舉的人餒"},{"start":493.22,"end":510.34,"text":"對不對 我知道的那個複雜欸你這樣隨便一句話 你就丟給人家地方選務機構出了問題他扛 你就這樣一句話我覺得不對欸 對不對地方選務機關 中選會要求我們做什麼 我們一定全力以赴"},{"start":511.101,"end":538.389,"text":"但以我的經驗 像這種重大的事情或是要這樣事先都要請他們大家來開會來討論有什麼問題吧 是不是這是標準的吧是 是這樣子是嘛 對嘛所以在這裡立法院回答我認為不應該這麼草率 這麼隨便不能把責任推給別人到時候有問題 沒有我們公文上面都怎麼寫的是他們辦不好 我覺得這樣不負責任不對的啦"}]}},{"id":"168233","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168233","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/70d8fc05dcd8abb073000fdbf988f633a7afadf2dd1952ec212c5ce4660756d3dd317367dc2c47e45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"10:31:53 - 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本席告訴你的是原則他的財源要從哪裡來"},{"start":701.129,"end":728.352,"text":"行政院同意我們增長這個裁員要從哪裡來啦部長第一個是舉債嘛第二個是不確定性的稅收嘛我請問你不確定的稅收如果未達到的時候怎麼辦沒有不確定性的稅收啊你在補足資不是因為我們政府補足資對不對不是因為我們會編入明年的預算本身要告訴你的也就是說因為戰爭的問題那中油不能倒"},{"start":729.509,"end":732.013,"text":"一定要好好的協助我們的民生中小企業產業這非常的重要大家要好好的來協助嘛這才是讓我們的人民可以過生活嘛"}]}},{"id":"168232","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168232","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/70d8fc05dcd8abb019df684a79f85cbdb9b76447cfe948db212c5ce4660756d3da94560aa36cc40e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳秀寳","委員發言時間":"10:24:04 - 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首先我們先來關心國際間對AI機器人研發的進展3月份輝達在GTC大會中亮相機器人版學保讓AI機器人的討論度再度飆升近期中國的機器人是被評論為發展快速"},{"start":40.003,"end":55.115,"text":"那各种这个机器人的表演一直在各影音平台播放甚至华尔街日报也报道说美国即便是掌握了先进的芯片但如果没有中国的相关零组件机器人是动不了主委您觉得呢"},{"start":56.4,"end":81.357,"text":"目前的市場如果像這種人型機器人的確中國的發展是比較早也比較全面但是這種人型機器人要做什麼事情這是一個比較可以討論的地方其中台積電董作魏哲嘉在近日出席活動的時候就評論說中國的機器人表示說中國大陸的機器人跳來跳去沒有用那只是好看而已"},{"start":83.339,"end":100.211,"text":"主委您剛提到要看它本身研發出來它的作用對我們的需求度的幫助在哪裡您覺得說我們跟中國的機器人的發展是發展的方向不同還是發展的本質上有差異"},{"start":101.172,"end":119.708,"text":"我們方向還有本質都不一樣我們發展機器人的目的是要協助我們社會各行各業各個層面的需求也就是說我們把機器人當作人的助手因為現在有AI我們都知道有AI agent AI代理"},{"start":121.009,"end":146.767,"text":"你在电脑上面它可以帮你做很多事情可是我们不能够我们的生活上不是只有一天到晚都在接触电脑手机我们很多事情如果需要有形体的这种机器自动化的机器它可以来帮我们的话这种服务型的机器人它不一定是人形也可以是动物的形状或其他的只要跟人可以互相互动可以接触有自主性协助人类不管是危险性的出众的"},{"start":147.327,"end":160.71,"text":"不是人類的能力不足的主委您的表達就是說這個看是不是針對需求而來開發的針對需求開發 對那我們去年呢國客會有宣示要發展智慧機器人我想知道一下現在目前的進度在哪裡"},{"start":161.397,"end":182.835,"text":"我们智慧机器人的方案我们有编了总共有200亿的预算那个逐年在进行我们今年是第一年才刚要启动可是因为现在总预算还没有审查所以有些新的案子是启动不了所以真的还是卡在总预算的这个部分那关于人才培育的部分呢我们相关的规划呢"},{"start":182.875,"end":200.528,"text":"人才培育我們是一直都在進行當中不是只有今年我們每年都有預算各部會也不是只有國會國會負責的是研發人力的培育我們主力是在大學大學的研發的工作那經濟部也編了很多的預算是在培養在職在從業人員能夠再訓練"},{"start":203.57,"end":226.467,"text":"然後它還有各個行業需求端要使用AI的 教他們怎麼樣去使用這些工具所以我們從科技端提供AI跟使用AI的人才我們現在各部會都有一些所以我們在人才培育的進度上是有跟上來的那其實本席比較憂心就是說我們發展智慧機器人的進度"},{"start":228.329,"end":236.44,"text":"剛主委您提到的就是預算的部分我們在這個智慧機器的預算115年是匡列了有9.8億元但是115年的總預算被藍白擱置到現在還沒有審所以目前智慧機器的計畫可能會面臨停擺"},{"start":245.592,"end":257.188,"text":"面臨延宕的這個問題那主委您也會不會擔心說像這樣的狀況是不是會打擊到我們科研人員的信心包括整個產業界的信心"},{"start":260.708,"end":278.436,"text":"這一點的確是,因為9.8月是國會要編的,要第一要支持我們學界做研究第二我們要成立國研院,要成立一個國家機器人中心那因為案子還沒有辦法啟動,所以學界都在很焦急的在詢問"},{"start":279.577,"end":308.922,"text":"其实这不只是说相关的产业关心我们产业发展的国人会觉得很失望我想在国际间相关机器人产业想要跟我们合作有兴趣的一些都会觉得却步因为他们觉得我们是有这个能力的但是因为卡在预算我一直没有办法启动那我想这个不只是对国人在国际间也会对我们的整个的这个延旦这个停滞不前也是会有一些失望那其实我们国内的我们的"},{"start":309.562,"end":315.725,"text":"智慧機器人產業不只是因為說我們有半導體及機密機械的一個優勢我們也希望說通過產業人才的整合打造我們台灣的這個相關的產業鏈那也希望說未來國際間這個智慧機器人的高度發展下也可以帶動我國相關產業來前進"},{"start":327.15,"end":344.92,"text":"所以這個部分除了說現在是因為整個的預算卡住了有一些新興的相關的計畫沒有辦法推動但是我們原本有在做的也希望說我們要持續的來推動那這邊我先請教主委在去年底我們有發射第一個台灣自治衛星服務會8號"},{"start":346.221,"end":359.873,"text":"那我們第一顆這個光牙衛星發射之後目前的運行是非常的順利啦這個部分本席真的非常肯定也非常感謝我們太空中心的努力那後續我們剩下的衛星發射的期程請問我們有規劃了嗎"},{"start":361.946,"end":378.558,"text":"有 非常感謝委員的肯定其實我對太空中心過去這一年來所表現出來的這個成果我也非常非常的讚賞我請我們吳宗興主任跟委員報告一下最新的這個成果請吳主任"},{"start":380.76,"end":406.696,"text":"主要我們是福威八號有八顆然後基本上原的規劃就是一年一顆中間也有到2031要deploy總共八顆一顆上去所以中間有兩年大概會有兩顆上去基本上是這個樣子影像的品質非常的好第一顆呢我們衛星的關鍵元件有84%是國產的市率有來到84%那下一顆的衛星會不會提高"},{"start":407.136,"end":432.176,"text":"我們希望提高到九成可以提高到九成我們有這樣的信心那其實剛才主委您講的我們太空中心的第一波的取向成果是非常的好它那個影片的這個清晰度呢是優於我們原始設計而這點大家都覺得說非常的開心就是說我們應該是很順利的達到一個這樣的成果那也希望你們也其實太空中心也有表達就是說福衛八號呢"},{"start":433.217,"end":455.734,"text":"取得的全球解析度最高的红边波段影像可以应用于在不管是灾害防救国家安全或是说我们的国土绘制地表监测还有精准农业这个都可以应用到那我想请教目前我们取得的这些相关的数据有没有跟相关的部会来做一个横向的联系跟合作"},{"start":456.84,"end":474.129,"text":"有啊 譬如說我們在災害防救的部分我們在災害應變中心需要的話 很多的資料我們都會提供那我們在國安的需求 我們在這個社會的韌性這些都要 氣象當然不用講"},{"start":475.009,"end":486.052,"text":"所以很多的層面我們跨部會都有在使用這些太空的資料因為既然我們有這麼取得這麼優質的這樣子的相關的這個影像我們來協助其他相關的部會我們有更緊密更積極的橫向聯繫的話我相信這個提升各部門這個行政效率也會有很大的幫助那我們再回到我們剛才提到的這個很實際的這個問題"},{"start":500.615,"end":526.905,"text":"就是国科会目前有许多新兴计划预算都没有审那国科会没有办法推动相关的科研发展除了刚刚我们有提到的智慧机器的前瞻技术研发还有量子运算这个主机的建制就是算力的部分那还有太空中心台南沙伦整合测试研发基地这是攸关我国太空科研的这个部分了还有这个金创计划的加速细光子技术"},{"start":527.585,"end":555.348,"text":"自主以及產業鏈承行這個相關的計畫都是攸關各種重要科研領域的計畫那現在其實世界在大力的發展像我們剛剛討論這個智慧機器人還有AI的算力太空產業的同時我們卻還因為就是說我們的預算沒有審議而停滯不前那主委您覺得您會不會擔心說這樣子對我們科研會有造成很嚴重的不良的影響"},{"start":557.129,"end":560.18,"text":"我們當然會擔心雖然現在有一些"},{"start":561.673,"end":587.79,"text":"有一些新的這個計畫我們使用既有的這個計畫能夠先做一點準備的工作可是畢竟它無法真正的啟動的話所有的人都沒有辦法能夠全心全意來答應說要執行這個計畫所以它很多人我們現在就沒有辦法找齊所以"},{"start":588.951,"end":601.439,"text":"我們還是很希望這個真的是一個很嚴重很嚴重的影響到我們整個科研發展的一個阻礙所以真的我還是要在這邊呼籲在野黨其實為了我們台灣的科技發展我們應該盡速的來審議新興計畫預算不要延宕台灣的未來發展那其實科技發展設置協議幾乎是一日千里"},{"start":611.946,"end":612.686,"text":"謝謝陳委員謝謝主委 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有請國安局蔡局長請局長好 謝謝主席 羅委員長"},{"start":13.155,"end":31.869,"text":"局長您剛剛在報告裡面有提到川普政府是致力在推動以實力追求和平這個跟台灣政府的理念是一致的我們投資國防其實就是投資安全而且川普政府也將持續的推進區域聯防"},{"start":34.651,"end":44.414,"text":"局長你也提到我國也是以顧問的身份受邀參加印太產業韌性夥伴關係我們跟友盟是要來共同打造非紅產業鏈跟不對稱戰力所以行政院也提出了國防特別條例來後製我們的國防實力建構具韌性的國防體系可是我們卻發現國民黨在他們的"},{"start":63.659,"end":73.403,"text":"鄭麗文主席出訪中國以前的發布了很多部的這個比如說有和平才能夠躺平不要戰爭只要和平的這個宣傳影片很顯然他們在國家跟區域安全議題上只想要耍廢而且是充滿滿滿的這個投降主義那這跟國民黨版的削弱防衛任性跟國防自主的國防"},{"start":87.609,"end":106.941,"text":"特别条例呢其实是相呼应的我在想局长你应该也看过这个在野党的这个版本在野党其实呢在这个国防特别条例在他们的版本里面呢其实呢是把台美共同研发跟不对称战力这个部分呢这项目全部都拿掉了"},{"start":107.621,"end":136.479,"text":"他們全部都拿掉了那這其實也也坐實了國安局您在2025年中共對台認知作戰操作手法分析我有看你們這個分析報告裡面有特別示警中國將要削弱國人的抗敵意志跟影響有盟原台的意願這都是中國列為他的這個戰略的這個目標而且也很顯然的國內呢有協力者在全力在配合"},{"start":137.179,"end":152.708,"text":"那如果按照這個國安局的評估如果比照國重版本的國防特別條例通過的話對於我國跟區域聯防還有跟國家安全層面上面的後面有哪一些影響或是說有哪一些嚴重的影響請問局長"},{"start":155.766,"end":181.834,"text":"大概委員提到有幾個主要問題我簡單做個補充的說明那一個部分是區域裡面大家對於第一島鏈現在的一個主角防禦的概念都很積極的來推動單邊雙邊甚至是多邊的一個合作那所以才會有委員剛剛所說明到的區域國家不管是在聯演聯訓或是在武器裝備零組件的生產的供應鏈部分都發展出更綿密的一個合作的網絡"},{"start":182.694,"end":211.055,"text":"那第二部分是周邊國家的國防預算也確實不斷的在增加那以今年日本的國防預算跟去年同比來做比較的話也增加了大概3點多塊4%那南韓大概增加了7%那菲律賓增加14%所以在整體川普這種以實力追求和平的概念之下印太的美盟也確實在這部分的國防投資有明顯的增加跟去年來做比較的話那有提到的就是整個"},{"start":212.075,"end":224.93,"text":"可能中共在對台統戰策略的部分這部分剛剛媒體朋友也有在關切我有做一些說明那基本上大概他的策略就是核戰加壓的手法那一方面透過軍事的恫嚇還有揮帶的侵擾"},{"start":227.833,"end":251.981,"text":"那製造兩岸兵兇戰委的氣氛那讓台灣的社會跟民眾有感受到這種兵戰的心理的壓力跟不安那但第一方面他還透過兩岸的各種的一個交流活動來推出中共所主導所謂的兩岸和平以及中共主導所謂兩岸和平之下的和平紅利那用這種方式來分化台灣內部可能對美軍購的支持那另外也去分化可能台美的合作"},{"start":252.361,"end":268.289,"text":"所以基本上中共在對台操作它的脈絡還是有一個比較整體性跟系統性的一個政治目的跟統戰的手法在背後那所以在進行兩岸的交流我們也是提醒要注意到中共背後的一個政治操作的手法"},{"start":269.016,"end":286.961,"text":"是,那剛剛我有提到就是說像這個國防特別條例,其實它裡面很多項目很重點,重點是可能就是跟美國跟我們的友盟其實有關係的一些共同要在國防上後置實力的部分其實都被拿掉了。"},{"start":287.441,"end":308.795,"text":"所以像這個的話其實是一個可以說是一個很危險的一個警訊嘛對不對因為說實在的大家都知道說像局長你剛有所提到了全世界各國都在厚植自己的國防實力在這國防預算上面是不斷的增加連中國也都是那偏偏就是國內就是有"},{"start":309.976,"end":329.953,"text":"國內的就是國會議員在這個法律的這個審查或是預算審查在國防方面是多加的這個阻擾所以在這個國防安全上面是不是造成很大的這個國家安全上面有很大的這個危險的一些影響呢這個部分以您的分析來說的話"},{"start":331.014,"end":346.536,"text":"對 我想剛剛跟委員說明報告就是說整體印太的圖像那現在美蒙大家都加強在安保議題上面的一個合作那不管是單邊雙邊多邊都已經串成了一個我們把它稱為美蒙加N的一個合作的一個系統"},{"start":347.057,"end":367.729,"text":"那假如台灣在這一部分自己沒有去增加國防的投資或展現我們自我防衛能量的話那很容易在整個我們剛剛說到第一島鏈的主角防禦當中會出現一個破口或漏洞那這個過程當中也會去弱化了相關有門國家對我們的信任以及對我們的那個自我防衛能力的這種意識的質疑"},{"start":368.109,"end":388.199,"text":"那或許弱化了我們跟其他國家合作的一個重要的一個基礎那因為剛剛也提到不管在國防產業工業鏈的合作台灣都不要請參加了那假如我們自己在這方面投資又不足的話那當然國際我們就會比較擔心我們在這部分是不是有足夠的能量來推出相關的多邊的合作那我覺得應該要掌握這一個很難得的印太地區"},{"start":389.44,"end":406.292,"text":"相關區域我們重視安保議題的機會那把它連帶到我們對於台海核穩的一個基本的一個防線的確立那我想這一點非常的重要因為台海和平穩定的現狀已經變成是在確保全球安全秩序一個很重要的一個前哨戰"},{"start":407.493,"end":432.286,"text":"其實躺平並沒有辦法來得到和平而是要充實我們的國防軍備才能夠追求和平我想這個國民黨跟台灣的這個理念是相左的我想支持國家的國防預算支持充實國家的軍備其實是大部分台灣人目前共同的這個共識跟這個理念"},{"start":435.327,"end":459.523,"text":"所以我們是在想說我們也很擔心這個國防特別條例國防特別預算不順利的話確實真的就是妨礙國家的安全所以那當然其實今天其實有很多的議題要跟局長來做這個討論當然因為時間上的關係那也沒關係我想很多有關於國家安全然後中國如何滲透的這些認知作戰的這個手法"},{"start":465.447,"end":490.017,"text":"提醒我們的國人要隨時讓他們有所警惕尤其是他們這些認知作戰可能是在其他的社交平台像Trade或是臉書等等我們其實也發現了有很多的影片影片剛開始可能是讓大家覺得這是很好玩這是有娛樂性的可是之後你會發現說其實後來慢慢"},{"start":490.937,"end":515.877,"text":"當你在常在看這些訊息這些影片的時候其實他們就會加入了一些中共如何美好中國如何美好的一些意思進來所以我在想這個可能國安局跟相關的單位隨時都要做預警隨時都要做防堵讓我們的民眾隨時都有所警惕我想這個都是國家安全很重要的一部分OK"},{"start":516.317,"end":542.793,"text":"好 謝謝委員的提醒 這一部分也跟委員報告一下就我們除了在立院的詢答或是業務報告專案報告的過程當中會去提醒國人對於中共軍事還有會帶威脅的這種國安的一個挑戰以外那我們也不定期的發布專題的報告不管是認知桌戰還是資安清台或是共諜的滲透那透過這些報告來揭露中共對我們來進行滲透的一些手法那讓國人比較有警覺"},{"start":543.393,"end":565.846,"text":"那過去以往我們大概情資的分享報告對象是陳峰那我們現在開始跟社會大眾還有跟委員們來加強做溝通說明希望能夠縮小決策者跟社會對於國家安全議題的那個認知的落差那這樣子我們才能夠建立起全社會在國家安全上比較堅實的一個共識的基礎跟委員做以上的補充OK好謝謝局長謝謝委員謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168230","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168230","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/70d8fc05dcd8abb07d00a4c0faadce72a7afadf2dd1952ec212c5ce4660756d3c83aa5707098847e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝衣鳯","委員發言時間":"10:23:14 - 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向委员报告首先在药品的部分这个我国在跟美国已经签署的这个投资MOU跟ART里面是有在明选民药跟它的原料是豁免对等关税选民药这个部分那所以上个礼拜政府院长在记者会也是有强调说这个是选民药的部分"},{"start":113.653,"end":136.113,"text":"我是說專利藥因為過去你們對國人宣布的是說我們享有最惠國待遇但是現在我們看到了4月2號美國再次宣布的這個專利藥裡面我們沒有享有最惠國待遇但是未來會不會有其他項目我們也沒有享有最惠國待遇呢"},{"start":137.318,"end":159.693,"text":"像委員報告就是說在那個今天的書面報告也有提到就是說我們在這個投資MOU裡面是有享有這個在半導體方面是最惠國的這個待遇是確定的那其他的有一些產品我們也是有享有這個稅率的那個"},{"start":161.154,"end":183.547,"text":"比較低然後以及還有這個豁免的部分豁免的話在這個對等關稅裡面有豁免在MOU裡面有提到那至於說委員有提到說其他的項目那這個就是要看這個美方會不會再就所以有可能是不是但是我們的是不是有可能是不是有可能MOU裡面有提到說未來會不會有可能其他項目的時候雙方會再就這個部分會不會有可能還有其他項目"},{"start":189.451,"end":204.315,"text":"如果有其他項目的時候MOU有載明雙方要做磋商那未來如果進一步有其他項目的時候你怎麼磋商那你磋商的條件是就是按照沒有辦法按照原稅率喔現在是15%嘛對不對不疊加"},{"start":209.724,"end":235.68,"text":"因為就是說有新的項目的時候那按照MOU的規定雙方要再做磋商那我方一定是力爭能夠是相對優勢跟最佳的待遇那還有什麼其他的項目目前在你們清單裡面因為在其他項目還沒進入磋商的很多項喔他的規定是說 這樣子有很多項喔未來有新的項目的時候對 這樣子會有很多項喔所以那個是要看美方是不是有新的項目是不是未來會有很多項"},{"start":237.473,"end":259.565,"text":"我們會持續的密切注意美方是不是有新的項目要進行232的國安調查還有我想要請教一下就在於我們工部長現在我們提到了就是未來要提高美國的天然氣占我國天然氣的總體占比那是不是就是說未來長期來講"},{"start":262.399,"end":270.463,"text":"對於我們油價以及對於整體對煤採購的這個天然氣以及石油是不是會有結構性的轉變 會不會"},{"start":274.71,"end":294.835,"text":"結構會有變化因為它就是會長期對剛剛提到的現在是大概我們從那邊購的是大概佔10%那為了能源韌性跟安全的問題所以我們會提高到2029年會提高到25%那主要理由就是說因為要分散一下風險原來是比較集中在卡拔"},{"start":296.296,"end":318.116,"text":"所以對美的採購會提高到25%對 然後美國說老實話它的這個價格報價也比較穩定以目前來講的話所以對中國公司也是有幫助對我們也是有幫助的那對於整體的價格波動呢價格波動會比較穩定啊就是價格比較不會波動那但是整體的成本會不會提高"},{"start":319.017,"end":331.502,"text":"理論上應該是不會因為美國事實上它的這個生產器的成本比中東要低所以未來如果對美採購天然氣是不會不會提高整體的成本"},{"start":334.215,"end":360.81,"text":"跟委員報告中央公司採購LNG的話那一定是會根據國際市場的一個狀況來去議定這些合約當然包括這些價格所以應該就是在市場可接受的一個價格水平市場可接受的價格水平那所以現在目前中央公司虧損多少目前累積虧損是接近800億"},{"start":362.272,"end":382.778,"text":"800億嘛793嘛對不對快要接近800億那未來你們預計還會虧損多少如果這一次的就是說中東的衝突沒有在四到六個禮拜解決更長的時候中油必須要虧損多少我們要拿多少人納稅錢去補這個洞"},{"start":386.268,"end":410.024,"text":"跟委員報告當然就是說能源高漲進口成本增加所以在銷售端的部分如果說能夠某種程度的反應的話那這樣的虧損就會減緩那現在就是在於這個政策上對於照顧民生這個區塊後續的發展會是怎麼樣子中油公司就持續去關注這些事情"},{"start":411.57,"end":419.179,"text":"所以你也不確定是你們內部沒有評估就是中東的衝突到底多久會結束嗎"},{"start":421.448,"end":444.451,"text":"拱部長還有答案是不是拱部長有研究對不對拱部長有研究 你有研究對不對你知道中東的衝突有可能什麼時候結束今天是好消息就是說和緩了嘛 兩個禮拜那兩個禮拜期間這個船是可以通過赫姆斯海峽那我們希望當然有比較好的結果啦那我的意思就是說因為"},{"start":445.572,"end":462.576,"text":"油價的波動會根據這個形勢變化波動非常大所以他這個消息一出來以後他的這個合約價就是這個預期價格馬上降到了這個100塊以下那這個變化就很大所以綜合公司的這個狀況財務狀況就會根據這個可能要比較精算沒有辦法說"},{"start":467.077,"end":485.166,"text":"那麼確定去估算說未來很長遠的時間我們當然會有一些模擬但是那個只是一個模擬而已你沒有回答我問題你剛才好像你對那個中東衝突的這個有了解說有具體的了解說到底什麼時候會結束這個可能要問川普你給他打電話是不是好謝謝老師"}]}},{"id":"17331","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17331","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/7a505bc1fba11f2d676ba83bee9ba143ee340a96049781e67a9d5466ed3f814036fe003b6fae98a45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2026-04-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期外交及國防委員會第7次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長提出「國家情報工作暨國家安全局業務報告」，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2026-04-08","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2026-04-08T08:37:21+08:00","end_time":"2026-04-08T12:23:00+08:00","duration":13539,"影片長度":"03:45:39","委員發言時間":"08:37:21 - 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大家早首先感謝大院安排本人協同國安情報機關的首長跟委員會來提報今年上半年度的業務報告以下僅就國家安全情勢的分析還有我們今年工作重點的方向跟大家做以下的提報首先第一部分是有關於國家安全情勢的分析這部分我們大概有題列六個主要的重點跟大家來做逐一的說明第一部分是有關於美國推動以實力追求和平"},{"start":1702.129,"end":1715.981,"text":"川普政府致力推動以實力追求和平的一個施政的理念並且運用全球優勢的軍力還有情報作為來遂行他的戰略目標所以我們看到在今年的一月美國也突襲並且逮捕了委內瑞拉的前總統到美國來進行審判"},{"start":1717.702,"end":1746.682,"text":"那今年的2月28號也聯合到以色列對伊朗來展開空襲的行動那牽動了整體的中東地緣政治的發展以及全球能源安全的一個變化那另外我們也注意到美國不斷地在調整國內相關的政策跟法規來鼓勵技術的創新希望能夠確保美國國防產業持續在全球位居一個領先的地位那這大概是第一個重點那第二個部分是針對印太的美盟持續地來提升拒止嚇阻的一個能量"},{"start":1747.502,"end":1771.08,"text":"在去年12月以來,川普政府已經陸續的公布國家安全戰略跟國防戰略,強調維護美國本土還有西半球的安全,並且提出對於印太安全的高度重視。依照美方的評估,台灣在半導體製造的部分具有全球的主導地位,而且在地緣政治上位居印太戰略的一個樞紐,所以確保台海的核穩,對於美國的安全還有進化利益至關重要。"},{"start":1771.48,"end":1791.011,"text":"那另外美國也強調要建立所謂的拒止防禦的一個體系所以持續的深化美日加恩印太地區的一個安全合作的機制特別是在指揮整合、連演聯訓、島鏈惡控還有後勤支援等等的部分來加強友盟之間相互的操作性跟跨域作戰的能力以便來推進區域聯防的體系"},{"start":1793.132,"end":1809.077,"text":"那除此之外,美國區友盟包括到日本、南韓、澳大利亞等國也都積極地來籌建軍工產業的飛虹供應鏈那主要的目的是在儲備相關防衛作戰的一個能量強化美盟他們在導鏈一個協同作戰的一個能力"},{"start":1809.777,"end":1838.178,"text":"那第三個重點跟大家報告的是有關於中共目前所面臨到的國內外治理的風險那在政治的部分我們可以看到中國持續的擴大對於官員的打攤數據所以依照去年中共官方公布的統計數據那他們已經處分了有98萬3千名的黨政官員那創下習近平任內最高的一個紀錄那另外今年以來也查處了軍委副主席張又俠還有軍委連參劉振利兩名上將那其中也包括到了政治局的委員馬興瑞"},{"start":1839.099,"end":1868.539,"text":"那另外還有重慶市長胡恆華等17名的中管幹部遭到查辦那相關中管幹部查辦的狀況請大家可以參閱我們在報告當中所提供的一個副表那除此之外中共的中國科學院還有中國工程院也有8名的院士遭到了除名那檢視這些院士的專業背景幾乎都是跟武器系統研發包括匿蹤的戰機雷達導彈系統有密切的關係所以不排除可能這些人會遭到查辦"},{"start":1869.119,"end":1888.175,"text":"是因為中共的武器在實際的作戰效能表現不佳有它的一個關聯性那中共藉由整封樹攤來確保幹部的一個效忠但是它也加劇了相關的官員迎合上億盲目施政或是衍生形式主義等等的消極態度來制約到中共相關政策的一個有效的推動"},{"start":1889.056,"end":1906.047,"text":"那在經濟上可以看到中共的經濟成長的增速在過去這段時間持續的下滑那特別主要的問題是國內的消費比較疲弱那而且外資投資也呈現負成長的一個狀況所以我們看到在今年中共中央兩會所公布的經濟成長目標也略微調降為4.5%到5%的一個狀況那顯示中共保守的看待後續的一個經濟發展的一個前景"},{"start":1919.657,"end":1947.696,"text":"美国持续对中共来加征大概有百分之三十的一个关税那尤其中共重要的战略伙伴包括委内瑞拉伊朗也都相继遭到美国的武力打击影响到中共能源安全以及一带一路的一个布局那另外在美中领导人的峰会的部分那双方因为地缘竞争关系没有减缓那另外在经贸谈判的角力也没有退让的迹象所以我们预判未来的川习会可能的实际的具体的成果还是会面临到一些局限性"},{"start":1948.456,"end":1963.975,"text":"那第四點跟大家報告一個重點是有關於中共對台灣的複合式威脅那影響到台海的和平穩定那在今年第一季一到三月我們看到共機對台侵擾的架次大概有420架次那而且也共機也協同到共建執行的總共有"},{"start":1964.716,"end":1979.322,"text":"十次的聯合戰備警巡那另外在侵擾我們的金門金仙治水域的部分今年一到三月那總共侵擾的有十二次之多那也顯示了中共在這個揮帶侵擾的力道並沒有任何的減緩"},{"start":1980.362,"end":2007.554,"text":"那我們可以看到中共在這個同時也組織了影子艦隊來支應相關的戰訓的任務包括徵用滾裝輪、貨輪等等的民間船舶來參與沿海地帶的海上的一個軍事投送的一個訓練那另外我們在去年整年統計下來我們的離島海嵐總共發生有四次的故障的事件那配合到相關的一個資訊的掌握那其中有三次的事件疑似都是跟中共船舶導致"},{"start":2009.295,"end":2023.973,"text":"有直接的一個關係那另外中共的漁船也不定期的到台灣本島外島周邊海域來進行活動那同時會關閉或偽冒AIS的訊號或是混用MMSI的一個識別碼來對周邊海域進行侵擾的活動"},{"start":2024.594,"end":2047.884,"text":"那針對認知作戰的部分,那在今年一月到三月,國安情報團隊我們總共收報的有異常帳號一萬三千多組,正義訊息大概有八十六萬多則。那可以看到中共持續的透過各種官媒、網路水軍、異常帳號、內容農場等等的傳送管道,來加大這種徵訊的散佈,企圖來升高我們內部的一個對立的一個氣氛。"},{"start":2048.604,"end":2067.04,"text":"那在資安供給的部分我們的政府服務網GSN在今年第一季遭到侵擾大概有1億7千多萬次那不排除中共為了今年年底的選舉來預作鋪陳那並且來拓展相關的情收監控還有竊資等等的一個意圖"},{"start":2068.081,"end":2079.649,"text":"好 第一部分跟大家提報的是有關於中共對我們的壓拉兩手的一個策略的操作在國際的打壓的部分 中共持續的來策動國際上親中的國家附和扭曲聯大2758號的決議 形塑國際一中的一個框架"},{"start":2083.191,"end":2098.718,"text":"那另外在對台統戰交流的方面我們也注意到中共持續透過各種論壇或參訪活動的一個舉辦拉攏各界人士到中國大陸來進行訪問藉機來推宣對台的政策以及兩岸促容促統的一個成效"},{"start":2099.298,"end":2118.995,"text":"那在跨境鎮壓的部分中共主要的操作手法包括有三個部分一個部分是設立舉報的機制立案懸賞通緝我國國人那第二部分是利用協力者來散佈武統的證訊製造台灣社會內部的一個恐慌那第三部分是派人到台灣來進行滋擾進行所謂的落地威脅的一個操作"},{"start":2120.256,"end":2141.591,"text":"在滲透簽名的部分,中共為了吃收我們的國防還有政府的機敏資訊也引誘我們的退役人員接觸現役的軍人來收集相關的情資所以我們從去年到今年的3月為止,起訴的共諜案人數已經累積有58人其中現役跟退役的軍人總計有32人,佔比大概是55%"},{"start":2143.172,"end":2167.983,"text":"那在經貿融台的部分 中共依照到它十五五的規劃那把重點放在拉攏我國的AI半導體還有晶片機械等等高科技產業能夠到中國來投資設廠那另外也針對我們的人才的挖角 科技的切密還有收購相關的管制貨品 非常積極的來推動那目的就是希望能夠獲取我國先進製程的晶片等等關鍵核心的技術跟產品"},{"start":2168.863,"end":2194.724,"text":"那在對台借選的部分那我們從過去選舉期間中共的一些手法可以注意到那中共可能還是會持續的運用這些AI深圍的技術來傳扇真訊甚至發布假民調開設地下賭盤以及利用落地招待或開放團客的觀光農產品採購等等的手法來影響我們內部選舉的結果以及後續政府的一個政策的一個走向那第二部分是針對全球"},{"start":2196.866,"end":2223.098,"text":"有關經濟安全跟供應鏈韌性的一個關注的一個情形那這個部分因為大家也注意到中共以這個稀土當成一個對外經濟脅迫的一個主要的手段所以川普政府也持續的跟國際友盟來建立其供應鏈合作的一個機制包括強化稀土供應鏈的一個韌性那跟跨的國家簽署了關鍵礦產的倡議那另外也邀請了全世界有50國家的代表在華府來舉辦第一屆的"},{"start":2225.7,"end":2242.758,"text":"關鍵礦產部長的一個會議那另外也跟英國、日本、南韓等9個國家成立了細和平的一個聯盟那主要的目的就是在維持關鍵礦產AI供應鏈以及半導體技術的安全跟穩定那在這個部分今年1月台美也簽署了細和平的宣言"},{"start":2243.178,"end":2271.837,"text":"以及經濟安全合作聯合聲明另外美國也持續的來推薦印太產業韌性夥伴的關係邀請了日本、南韓、菲律賓、澳大利亞等16國家參加我們台灣也是用顧問的身份來受邀與會主要的目的就是透過這些合作機制包括現在跟大家報告到的印太產業韌性夥伴關係來強化美國盟友在國防產業的合作以及推升相關的不對稱戰力以便來共同維護印太地區的和平穩定"},{"start":2272.617,"end":2298.884,"text":"好 第二部分跟大家報告的是今年我們的一個工作重點的方向那大概分為五點來跟大家做提報第二部分是深化國際情報的合作及時的來掌收情勢的一個發展那我們剛剛在提報過程當中有去提醒那中共持續的來針對各種的一個軍演法律戰跟認知作戰來對我們國內進行各種的一個施壓那所以本局會持續的來掌收國內外綜合安全情勢的發展"},{"start":2299.744,"end":2318.265,"text":"那透過我們的雙多邊國際情報會議還有安全對話那聚焦在三個重點議題第一個是有關於中共對外行為模式第二個是有關於台海安全環境的變化第三個是有關於國際政經發展的趨勢那針對相關的一個議題的綜合研判來協助我們政府進行必要的風險管控跟應處的準備"},{"start":2319.907,"end":2337.663,"text":"好,第二工作重點是有關於拓展收情部件的一個管道那祕助涉及到我們國家安全威脅的各種的一個情緒那剛剛在提報過程當中也特別去提醒大家中共目前內外所面臨到經濟不振、地緣政治競爭等等的壓力內部的治理風險也持續的升高當中"},{"start":2338.183,"end":2358.397,"text":"所以本局會持續靈活地來調整對於中共情報搜捕的作為及時地來掌握中共情勢變化的一個趨勢以及對台灣威脅的各種預警情資同時也會透過我們跨部會的合作跟國際的交流來分享海域感知MDA的技術跟經驗完善我們的預警應處的一個能力"},{"start":2359.358,"end":2388.437,"text":"第三點是有關於遏制中共統戰的一個滲透精進我們徵處協作的一個成效那中共持續運用各種的管道跟手法那對我們各界來進行滲透跟攻堅那針對這個部分本局會持續的來精進我們國安情報團隊檢調機關軍中保防單位之間的聯合徵防協作的成效那也來發揮我們情報資源司法偵辦的一個效益以便能夠來遏制中共還有境外敵對勢力的滲透破壞等等不法的圖謀"},{"start":2389.498,"end":2414.489,"text":"那第四個重點主要是聚焦在後指我們網路防控的作為防止中共對我的認知作戰那在這個部分本局會持續的來整合我們國安情報團隊網路空間的資源以便來強化網路防控聯防的一個成效後指我國數位的韌性那同時我們也會快速的來掌搜通報以及澄清涉及到國安的相關的一個正義訊息以便來確實的維護我國輿論場域的純淨"},{"start":2417.17,"end":2440.315,"text":"第五點也是最後一點我們在工作重點的部分也會聚焦在統合情報安委的部署確保我們選舉平順的舉行我想大家都知道今年有九合一的選舉為了因應九合一的選舉的需要本局在今年的二月份已經統合我們在場的國安情報團隊來成立我們查處的專案主要的目的就是希望能夠發掘中共對我們進行滲透破壞各種的線索還有事證我們也會在這個過程當中"},{"start":2446.056,"end":2467.251,"text":"來加強選舉期間跨境金流的一個監控來防範各種賭盤或線上博弈的一個操作來影響我們的選情來查查中共各種借選的一個作為來確實維護我們選舉的平順跟安全那最後部分是結語那從剛剛報告當中我們可以看到一個完整的圖像"},{"start":2467.711,"end":2492.696,"text":"也就是當前中共對我們的各種的國安的威脅跟挑戰有增無減所以本局會持續與時俱進的來調整我們的工作部署擴大跟國際我們的情報合作那同時也會來統合善用國安情報團隊跟民間的資源還有能量以便能夠來穩健有序的推動國安情報工作即先掌握戰略預警的情資並且協同我們全職機關來做出必要的及時的應處"},{"start":2493.396,"end":2517.737,"text":"那在這邊敬盼我們大院各位委員先進可以持續的給我們指導跟支持以上報告 謝謝好 謝謝局長 公開報告結束我們接下來要進行秘密會議即將清場 因為今天出席人員動多我們移動的時候全部由前門出場然後參與秘密會議的人員由後門通過偵測檢測後才可以進入請議事人員協助清場"},{"start":5663.328,"end":5673.359,"text":"好現在登記公開質詢委員開始詢答那我們現在請陳永康委員上台質詢 沈委員質詢已在秘密會議質詢完畢"},{"start":5695.945,"end":5723.475,"text":"主席有請這個局長我們請局長謝謝主席 車禍委員長主席 局長大家早安剛才聽取了局裡面的報告我個人深感有關國家安全以及我們國家的核心利益它是一體兩面它是沒有妥協的空間那麼今天在場的所有涉及國安的"},{"start":5724.445,"end":5745.079,"text":"國防部會首長也都在場那麼除了國防部部以外幾乎都在場所以我今天會用幾個方法論提供一些建議做參考那大家現在實際上我們的人才濟濟但是在橫向整合的過程中間我們還有一些努力的空間那提出一些頭像尤其是剛剛局長"},{"start":5746.28,"end":5763.495,"text":"也提到了那个国外的媒体也有的时候是为了他的商业利益啊做出一些不正确的资讯的这个残破那也许会影响到我们国内明星士气的判断啊那我下面这张图这个刚才您提到了就是2015年呢"},{"start":5765.837,"end":5778.452,"text":"2025年的美國國家安全戰略他是11月出來的那麼接著就是國防戰略那下一個版本就等著軍事戰略那我們關注要看的是什麼就是印太戰略那"},{"start":5779.386,"end":5801.612,"text":"去年我曾经代表我们院里面接待了15个美国国会助理团都是法案助理资深的助理团也跟他们做了很多意见交换他们提出来了就是说因为他们有一个完整的国家安全战略所以你看到这上面四个面向四个P就是在军事的能力上面他们是预做准备"},{"start":5802.432,"end":5830.731,"text":"在这个外交事务上他是做预防措施那么在他的经济上面他是要追求经济另外就是对于他的高科技内部安全管制法律手他是要做一个保护所以四个批那实际上就是包括美国的国务院现在叫做战争部还有CIA还有他的国会他们都有一个专门的特别小组研究中国大陆所有的行政军事企图"},{"start":5831.994,"end":5852.384,"text":"他们因为是可以横向交流所以有很多资料的分享因为我们目前还没有一个我们国家版的国家安全战略就是官方版那两个面向第一个是对国际的国家来讲他看不到我们的官方版就是对我的核心利益的价值观在评估上面会跟现实面有点落差"},{"start":5852.924,"end":5877.225,"text":"第二个就是国内的人士看不到官方版的国家安全战略因为我们现在只有国防战略你看这个上次的印太战略他们因为把AI当作工具所以现在各部会用分享资料上速度非常快最下面一个就是他在那个上一个版本的印太战略讲就是说我们台湾保有做两岸交流的自我决定这是他讲的话"},{"start":5878.355,"end":5898.253,"text":"那下一个就看国家安全战略国防战略军事战略印太的下面的战略因为我们国家目前还没有没有国家安全战略那么QDR四年期国防总检讨美国在2017年就已经停止了现在是国防战略一样四年一本下面呢就是他的军事战略我们刚刚"},{"start":5899.054,"end":5927.8,"text":"發表了我們的國防報告書可是在去年10月國防報告書出來的時候還沒有提到台灣之盾也就是說這個東西將來要做滾動的修正要把這個理念導進去現在就是說我還是建議從國安的角色像我們政府希望在執政黨的任內能夠推出官方版的公開版當然有機密的內部這樣子對其他的國際的學者智庫有人來看的時候"},{"start":5928.781,"end":5930.609,"text":"就比較容易掌握我們的核心價值"},{"start":5935.785,"end":5958.472,"text":"剛剛您在提到就是最近這個美國日本以及菲律賓他們都在強化對這個東海南海整個的監控那我這個資料也是從不同的資訊裡面把剛才您那個簡報裡面部署的菲律賓還有日本部署的這些武器裝備Sensor涵蓋範圍也做了一個套疊以及日本"},{"start":5959.392,"end":5988.613,"text":"公開版的因為上次我在國防研究院也碰到日本來訪的學者他也說你們這個圖怎麼做我們說是利用GIS做個校正把圖套疊出去你就可以看到一個大範圍的圖共同圖像我們在作業過程中同同圖像需要有很多工程的背景不是光一般的行政幕僚會用的這個大家我們共同努力我也可以把資料跟局裡面做分享"},{"start":5990.407,"end":6015.928,"text":"这样才产生了一个叫JCAP所以看到的范围不仅止于台湾防空识别区乃至于旁边到宫古海峡下面到这个巴丹岛到南海这个都可以显示那这个图各位看是一个大的防空识别区因为这个海委会主委在他的这个脸书上公布了说这个中共的这个船"},{"start":6017.253,"end":6028.821,"text":"我們把套疊上去這是今天早上的防空這是國防部公布的把這個圖套上去再比較周遭的環境這個時候看出來的東西就比較客觀一點"},{"start":6030.692,"end":6052.977,"text":"像這個圖就是大範圍涵蓋了朝鮮半島日本東海南海台海那這是最近中共部一個限航區對不對但是他並沒有真正向IKEA申請那我們國內對這個判斷上就心裡會產生壓力因為他的時間很長是327到5月6號那我們怎麼做呢第一個你要把上海飛航航線"},{"start":6054.793,"end":6065.192,"text":"不是光台灣的飛航情報區不是防空識別區是飛航情報區裡面的航線套疊上去我這邊可以顯示給各位看這個大區顯示出來了"},{"start":6067.46,"end":6093.708,"text":"這是今天早上的民航機的線路背景再把上海的航線套疊起來你發現並沒有影響但是因為公開的資訊很有限在民間有時候會誤解可能會遭到心理上的誤判這個時候如果有人帶風向就變成你內心不安或是做出一些不是智當的反應這裡面都套成四層圖到五層圖了"},{"start":6095.598,"end":6119.729,"text":"用這種方法論這是台灣的這個國際航線所以我們要顯示說要把上海飛航情報局的航線也把它抓出來那去對應的軌跡圖就可以做出結果那剛才您的報告裡面提到中共對海欄的狀況像在海峽中間有很多的破壞那我們就把海欄的圖經過校正全部顯示出來那麼再去跟"},{"start":6120.549,"end":6131.514,"text":"不同的海揽跟不同的公司有中華電信有遠傳各自簽約的廠商了解到這個如果有意外的時候修復它要多少時間那這做一個參考"},{"start":6134.963,"end":6152.18,"text":"这里面比较一个新的问题就是您刚刚里面提到的就是现在实际上在国际情势里面看的就是这个我讲心理战媒体战法律战它纠结在一起现在是用AI对抗AI那在这个科技进步下法条的规则要更新"},{"start":6153.081,"end":6175.82,"text":"要跟得上AI那治理競賽那這裡面就是法律戰的作為心理戰的作為媒體戰作為我們中間會發現產生很多的假信息還有就是所謂的deep fake那最後是什麼希望導致你對一個事情的看法誤判下了一個錯誤的決心做了一個錯誤的決定"},{"start":6177.458,"end":6200.332,"text":"然後全民買單付出一個很錯誤的代價這個是我們要預防的尤其是中共的這個心理戰上面這過程中間所以它是三個面向那現在AI的技術非常進步那這個東西要大家滾動修正那將來我們還有機會再互動那這只是顯示一個所有跟AI相關的議題最後我們要因為這個月份國防部也要做這個漢光演習"},{"start":6201.693,"end":6224.586,"text":"那这里面实际上把AI导入的技术从它的节奏性你的基础防卫流程你涵盖的范围不同的层次以及能源现在讲穿了能源就是国安运善能力也是国安所以我们建议就是未来不管是执政在野我们要团结一心国家安全是不可以妥协请这个局长您做个回应"},{"start":6225.146,"end":6244.711,"text":"好 謝謝幾個重點跟委員做一些補充的說明第一部分是有關於國家安全戰略的部分那這部分委員先前也有多次的提醒我們內部會再來提出相關的討論那我知道委員也有相關的一個立法的提案那假如需要本局來提供意見的話我們很樂意來參與相關的一個意見的交流"},{"start":6245.151,"end":6269.168,"text":"那第二部分是有關於一些圖資的彙整怎麼樣用一個比較全面有系統的方式來呈現我們所面臨到比較複雜的國家安全包括海洋安全的一個圖像那這個部分我們跟委員辦公室也一直有在聯繫我們在這一部分也是我們努力的方向所以不管今天的公開版或機密版的部分我們都做相關的一個圖示的嘗試讓大家更能夠了解基本的一個樣態"},{"start":6270.009,"end":6284.63,"text":"那第三個部分是有關於中共所劃設的這個空域保留區那確實沒有影響到民航的部分因為我們第一時間就跟民航局有做過確認那他並沒有影響到民航的任何的航班航線也不用再跟上海飛航情報局做任何申請都不用"},{"start":6285.071,"end":6308.84,"text":"那我們判斷主要可能還是有點在測試外機在相關空域活動的狀況那因為有能力在當地空域活動的外機大概還是以美國為主所以我們後續再來注意美中在這一塊空域相關互動的情形那中共有沒有在相關的空域進行軍事演訓我們也會跟國防部合作透過聯合情監偵來做密切的一個助手謝謝委員"},{"start":6309.773,"end":6335.305,"text":"好謝謝局長我們大家共同努力好謝謝委員謝謝謝謝陳永康委員接下來我們請羅美玲委員謝謝主席有請國安局蔡局長請局長好謝謝主席羅委員長"},{"start":6337.131,"end":6356.028,"text":"局長您剛剛在報告裡面有提到就是川普政府呢是致力在推動這個以實力追求和平那這個跟台灣政府的理念是一致的我們投資國防其實就是投資這個安全而且川普政府也將持續的推進這個區域聯防比如說剛剛"},{"start":6358.61,"end":6368.397,"text":"局長你也提到我國也是以顧問的身份受邀參加印太產業韌性夥伴關係我們跟友盟是要來共同打造非紅產業鏈跟不對稱戰力所以行政院也提出了國防特別條例來後製我們的國防實力建構具韌性的國防體系可是我們卻發現國民黨在他們的"},{"start":6387.63,"end":6396.034,"text":"鄭麗文主席出訪中國以前的發布了很多部的這個比如說有和平才能夠躺平不要戰爭只要和平的這個宣傳影片很顯然他們在國家跟區域安全議題上只想要耍廢而且是充滿滿滿的這個投降主義"},{"start":6406.138,"end":6430.917,"text":"那這跟國民黨版的削弱防衛任性跟國防自主的國防特別條例其實是相呼應的我在想局長你應該也看過這個在野黨的這個版本在野黨其實在這個國防特別條例在他們的版本裡面其實是把台美共同研發跟不對稱戰略這個部分這些項目全部都拿掉了"},{"start":6431.577,"end":6460.435,"text":"他們全部都拿掉了那這其實也也坐實了國安局您在2025年中共對台認知作戰操作手法分析我有看你們這個分析報告裡面有特別示警中國將要削弱國人的抗敵意志跟影響有盟原台的意願這都是中國列為他的這個戰略的目標而且也很顯然的國內呢有協力者在全力在配合"},{"start":6461.135,"end":6476.71,"text":"那如果按照這個國安局的評估如果比照國重版本的國防特別條例通過的話對於我國跟區域聯防還有跟國家安全層面上面的後面有哪一些影響或是說有哪一些嚴重的影響請問局長"},{"start":6479.425,"end":6505.806,"text":"大概委員提到有幾個主要問題我簡單做個補充的說明那一個部分是區域裡面大家對於第一島鏈現在的一個阻絕防禦的概念都很積極的來推動單邊雙邊甚至是多邊的一個合作那所以才會有委員剛剛所說明到的區域國家不管是在聯演聯訓或是在武器裝備零組件的生產的供應鏈部分都發展出更綿密的一個合作的網絡"},{"start":6506.667,"end":6535.014,"text":"那第二個部分是周邊國家的國防預算也確實不斷的在增加那以今年日本的國防預算跟去年同比來做比較的話也增加了大概3點多塊4%那南韓大概增加了7%那菲律賓增加14%所以在整體川普這種以實力追求和平的概念之下印太的美盟也確實在這部分的國防投資有明顯的增加跟去年來做比較的話那有提到的就是整個"},{"start":6536.034,"end":6548.889,"text":"可能中共在對台統戰策略的部分這部分剛剛媒體朋友也有在關切我有做一些說明那基本上大概他的策略就是核戰加壓的手法那一方面透過軍事的恫嚇還有揮帶的侵擾"},{"start":6551.792,"end":6575.974,"text":"那製造兩岸兵兇戰委的氣氛那讓台灣的社會跟民眾有感受到這種兵戰的心理的壓力跟不安那但第一方面他還透過兩岸的各種的一個交流活動來推出中共所主導所謂的兩岸和平以及中共主導所謂兩岸和平之下的和平紅利那用這種方式來分化台灣內部可能對美軍購的支持那另外也去分化可能台美的合作"},{"start":6576.334,"end":6592.248,"text":"所以基本上中共在對台操作它的脈絡還是有一個比較整體性跟系統性的一個政治目的跟統戰的手法在背後那所以在進行兩岸的交流我們也是提醒要注意到中共背後的一個政治操作的手法"},{"start":6592.995,"end":6610.92,"text":"是 那剛剛我有提到就是說像這個國防特別條例其實它裡面很多項目很重點 重點是可能就是跟美國跟我們的友盟其實有關係的一些共同要在國防上後置實力的部分其實都被拿掉了"},{"start":6611.4,"end":6632.774,"text":"所以像這個的話其實是一個可以說是一個很危險的一個警訊嘛對不對因為說實在的大家都知道說像局長你剛有所提到了全世界各國都在厚植自己的國防實力在這國防預算上面是不斷的增加連中國也都是那偏偏就是國內就是有"},{"start":6633.935,"end":6653.912,"text":"國內的就是國會議員在這個法律的這個審查或是預算審查在國防方面是多加的這個阻擾所以在這個國防安全上面是不是造成很大的這個國家安全上面有很大的這個危險的一些影響呢這個部分以您的分析來說的話"},{"start":6654.973,"end":6670.495,"text":"對 我想剛剛跟委員說明報告就是說整體印太的圖像那現在美蒙大家都加強在安保議題上面的一個合作那不管是單邊 雙邊 多邊都已經串成了一個我們把它稱為美蒙加N的一個合作的一個系統"},{"start":6671.016,"end":6695.552,"text":"那假如台灣在這一部分自己沒有去增加國防的投資或展現我們自我防衛能量的話那很容易在整個我們剛剛說到第一島鏈的主角防禦當中會出現一個破口或漏洞那這個過程當中也會去弱化了相關有門國家對我們的信任以及對我們的那個自我防衛能力的這種意識的質疑那會去弱化了我們跟其他國家合作的一個重要的一個基礎"},{"start":6696.172,"end":6712.159,"text":"那因為剛剛也提到不管在國防、產業、工業鏈的合作台灣都不要請參加了那假如我們自己在這方面投資又不足的話那當然國際友盟就會比較擔心我們在這部分是不是有足夠的能量來推出相關的多邊的合作那我覺得應該要掌握這一個很難得的印太地區"},{"start":6713.399,"end":6730.249,"text":"相關區域我們重視安保議題的機會那把它連帶到我們對於台海核穩的一個基本的一個防線的確立那我想這一點非常的重要因為台海和平穩定的現狀已經變成是在確保全球安全秩序一個很重要的一個前哨戰"},{"start":6731.469,"end":6758.906,"text":"其實躺平並沒有辦法來得到和平而是要充實我們的國防軍備才能夠追求和平我想這個國民黨跟台灣的這個理念是相左的我想支持國家的國防預算支持充實國家的軍備其實是大部分台灣人目前共同的這個共識跟這個理念"},{"start":6759.306,"end":6783.482,"text":"所以我們是在想說我們也很擔心這個國防特別條例國防特別預算不順利的話確實真的就是妨礙國家的安全所以那當然其實今天其實有很多的議題要跟局長來做這個討論當然因為時間上的關係那也沒關係我想很多有關於國家安全然後中國如何滲透的這些認知作戰的這個手法"},{"start":6789.406,"end":6813.999,"text":"提醒我們的國人要隨時讓他們有所警惕尤其是他們這些認知作戰可能是在其他的社交平台像Trade或是臉書等等我們其實也發現了有很多的影片影片剛開始可能是讓大家覺得這是很好玩這是有娛樂性的可是之後你會發現說其實後來慢慢"},{"start":6814.899,"end":6839.676,"text":"當你在常在看這些訊息這些影片的時候其實他們就會加入了一些中共如何美好中國如何美好的一些意識進來所以我在想這個可能國安局跟相關的單位隨時都要做預警隨時都要做防堵讓我們的民眾隨時都有所警惕我想這個都是國家安全很重要的一部分OK"},{"start":6840.276,"end":6866.772,"text":"好 謝謝委員的提醒 這部分也跟委員報告一下就我們除了在立院的詢答或是業務報告專案報告的過程當中會去提醒國人對於中共軍事還有會帶威脅的這種國安的一個挑戰以外那我們也不定期的發布專題的報告不管是認知作戰還是治安侵害或是共諜的滲透那透過這些報告來揭露中共對我們來進行滲透的一些手法那讓國人比較有警覺"},{"start":6867.352,"end":6893.463,"text":"那過去以往我們大概情資的分享報告對象是陳峰那我們現在開始跟社會大眾還有跟委員們來加強做溝通說明希望能夠縮小決策者跟社會對於國家安全議題的那個認知的落差那這樣子我們才能夠建立起全社會在國家安全上比較堅實的一個共識的基礎跟委員做以上補充OK好謝謝局長謝謝委員謝謝謝謝謝謝魏美玲委員接下來我們邀請陳俊宇委員"},{"start":6910.916,"end":6917.77,"text":"好 謝謝主席 有請蔡局長我們請局長好 局長早"},{"start":6921.158,"end":6943.596,"text":"當前全球的地緣政治正處於高度的動盪也包括中東的美伊衝突以及印太地區的軍事威脅每天在持續變動的當中我們今天國安局的夜報裡也用了很大的篇幅說明有關中共目前的情勢、策略還有統戰手法"},{"start":6944.016,"end":6956.09,"text":"那我想今天能夠就這個內容不管是中共對內或對外相關政策跟台灣的未來來跟局長做一個討論那首先就是中共在2026年的這個"},{"start":6959.233,"end":6982.762,"text":"全國人大政協會議的這個兩會也在這個3月上旬在北京召開也在日前剛落幕那從這個李強所提出的政府的工作報告當中除了把設立台灣光復紀念日列為工作亮點那我們也看到經濟年度增長的這個目標調降設定在這個4.5到5%之間那這也是從1991年來這個"},{"start":6988.524,"end":7010.49,"text":"中國最保守的一次的一個數字不但無法在維持在5%以上的這個經濟成長目標也顯示出去年這個中共的經濟是增速且逐漸下滑的然而在這個經濟承受壓力的同時中共的這個國防預算仍然維持在7%的這個高成長達到1.91兆的人民幣規模"},{"start":7015.211,"end":7024.482,"text":"而在這個他們內部統治秩序經濟發展還有防範社會秩序群抗等這種自發性運動的這種維穩的經費更高達兩兆以上的這個人民幣遠超過於這個國防"},{"start":7031.95,"end":7058.139,"text":"支出的預算顯示即便這個經濟成長的速度減緩可是中共的這個武力擴張仍然沒有放緩的這個跡象而且內部全方位的這個監控管高壓的這個態勢也更加的明顯那我想請教局長就是從這次的這個兩會的政府工作報告當中我們如何去解讀中共所要傳達的這個訊息那我們又如何來解讀這種"},{"start":7059.342,"end":7061.618,"text":"資源配置所代表的相關意涵是什麼"},{"start":7062.093,"end":7089.708,"text":"好 謝謝委員的提問我想這一次中共的兩會大概幾個重點那第一個重點是在解決中共自己內部的問題那就像委員剛剛所提到的不管中共在經濟增長的速度或是在國內的社會問題來民生問題來講問題都非常的多所以這一次的兩會有點提出他們政府的一個治理的方案那希望能夠安定國內的民心那這對中共政權的穩定非常的重要所以我想這大概是中共兩會的第一個重點"},{"start":7090.268,"end":7119.584,"text":"那第二部分是在委員所提到的涉台的部分那我們判斷第一個就是基本的主調沒有改變但是那些統戰交流的手法有微調那基本的主調沒有改變那就是他的主調還是維持反獨促統這是基本的主旋律那但是在對台統戰的手法有做一些微調大概幾個重點第一個就是在促容的部分那有結合到十五五的規劃那希望能夠在促容過程當中聚焦在台灣的青年"},{"start":7120.084,"end":7141.94,"text":"台灣的企業以及台灣的基層那讓這些特別鎖定的交往的對象可以享有同等待遇那這是他們特別去推宣的一個概念同等待遇那另外也特別結合到他15的規劃有特別去鎖定到台灣比較高科技的產業像是AI半導體還有相關的精密機械的產業"},{"start":7142.64,"end":7164.406,"text":"希望能夠透過這些園區的開放引起更多台商台資願意到當地來做投資不過我也知道那個成效沒有那麼好是因為以2025年去年來講那我們對大陸的投資大概只佔了我們對外總體投資的佔比3.7%而已所以看起來那個成效並沒有那麼好主要原因是因為"},{"start":7164.966,"end":7193.836,"text":"中國大陸內部投資環境確實有比較不穩定跟惡化那也造成台商在投資過程當中有所卻步那第三個大概對台的促宣的重點是在文化的交流那委員可能也知道他們也提出所謂的促進民族的這些相關的法案那希望來透過文化宗教的交流能夠讓台灣對於兩岸的宗教文化同源能有更進一步的統戰效果所以大概以上是他們這次兩會的主要重點"},{"start":7194.876,"end":7218.139,"text":"還有更優惠的這種會台政策這個都是現在中國所提出的相關一些宣傳的誘因我想在中共今年這個兩會除了在報告當中我們也看到這個複查案就這個八旗文化總編輯的這個被列為維護國家安全的一個重要案例之一"},{"start":7218.76,"end":7244.422,"text":"那他也通過了一部這個民主團結進步的促進法在今年的7月要正式實施那這一部法律存在的相當大的一個爭議不但表示將依法追究破壞民主團結的這種行為更將不表態支持統一等同破壞民主團結甚至把台灣同胞聯誼會這個相關的條文納入先前就有這個學者事件這部法律將會讓中共在"},{"start":7246.263,"end":7272.48,"text":"任何不配合的這種行為之下嫁接到既有的行政法或是刑法形塑一個對台治理的假象甚至揚言可以對境外的組織或個人執法不但讓這個法律的紅線變得極為模糊更可能逼迫民眾表態支持統一那我想請問局長這部法律是否會導致我們台灣的民眾在中國大陸甚至在第三國"},{"start":7273.3,"end":7299.289,"text":"的時候可能遭受到更大的一個風險那中共接下來這個跨境鎮壓還有這個長臂管轄的作為是否會變本加厲那政府對這個法律有什麼樣的因應的做法好那針對中共通過民族團結促進法那剛剛有稍微跟委員說明一下我再做一些補充那大概他在第21條有特別提到要去鼓勵台灣同胞對中華民族的認同"},{"start":7299.989,"end":7324.469,"text":"那在第61條又就提到了假如是破壞民主團結的話可以依法來追溯那我們認為他這是有點在進行對台的一個法律戰還有輿論戰的一個操作那可能象徵意義還是大於實質的意義因為畢竟台灣是一個主權的國家那我們中華民國政府也不容許中華人民共和國的法律在我們國內來實行所以他主要還是有一種"},{"start":7325.269,"end":7342.474,"text":"心理或心理戰跟法律戰輿論戰操作的一個綜合的一個手法在裡面那但是第二部分是委員所提到的我們可能要注意一下假如有國人要到對岸去那可能要特別警覺那在他的這些相關法制規範之下那可能在進出海關"},{"start":7343.154,"end":7371.693,"text":"那他會檢查你的手機那特別他有很多的法律條文的定義跟解釋非常的模糊那這會讓第一線的中共的執法人員有很大的一個權限來讓我們的附訪的國人無端入罪所以這部分也謝委員的提醒我們這部分也希望國人在到大陸訪問過程當中要注意一下個人的人身安全以及手機裡面是不是曾經有瀏覽一些批評中共的網頁或相關的通話留言"},{"start":7374.795,"end":7388.865,"text":"今年兩會的另外一個議場是解放軍代表團創下習近平上台以來最大的一個將輔減少了38人並且也未依循過去的慣例編制副團長"},{"start":7390.546,"end":7413.822,"text":"那我想這也與近年來中共大規模清洗軍方高層有關那去年跟局長您巡打討論過今年的這個人數越來越多今年包括這個軍委的副主席張又俠還有聯參部的參謀長這個劉正麗等高階的將領甚至這個政治局的委員馬興瑞等人也遭受到這個查處"},{"start":7415.123,"end":7441.729,"text":"那原先的七個人組成的這個中央軍委會現在只剩下習近平跟這個張勝明兩人已經實質走向這個軍委主席的負責制這不但會導致決策鏈的一個縮短那已經實質的走向這個軍委這個主席的這個相關的這個負責制這個會讓我們台海的情勢造成更大的一個緊張態勢我想"},{"start":7444.029,"end":7469.958,"text":"這也是大家所關心的一個主要的議題我想請問局長就是目前中共的這個軍隊權力高度集中於這個習近平一人那對於短期長期中共在這個台海的作戰能力與風險我們國安局如何去評估這第一點第二點針對這個張又俠還有劉振利的這個查處情形我們國安局目前掌握的這個狀況是如何可能會有一路整肅到明年的21大的可能嗎"},{"start":7471.499,"end":7491.978,"text":"謝謝委員長期關注這個問題那也在這部分有跟委員做一些觀念跟資訊的交流那我再把最新的狀況跟委員做一些補充那第二部分就是中共這種手法比較像是絕對效忠的清洗模式所以清洗的那個規模非常的大那上將的部分我跟委員報告過中共上將的員額有33名"},{"start":7493.619,"end":7518.548,"text":"但是現在只有四名的上將那包括他的軍委副主席張生明國防部長董軍東站的司令員楊志斌跟中站的司令員韓勝炎那其他的都是以低代高的這種戰缺的方式那在這樣的情況之下我們認為可能會影響到中共的聯合作戰還有後勤協調的鍛煉的一個現象的發生那我們也是實際上局裡面有盤點過啦"},{"start":7522.81,"end":7544.219,"text":"上將以下的中將大概有100多位有上百位那上百位裡面我們有針對中共中將要晉升上將的條件做一些盤點它有兩個條件第一個是要任滿兩年的中將才能升上將再來是你在擔任中將期間要歷經兩個職務的歷練才能升上將我們盤點了上百位的中共的中將在今年"},{"start":7545.38,"end":7562.673,"text":"2026年跟明年2027年符合晉升條件的今年可能不到五個明年也不到五個所以你可以想像這個整個它的一個指揮鏈在這樣子上降大量懸缺情況之下可能發生在連戰或後勤協調指揮上鏈路的一個斷鏈的一個風險"},{"start":7564.614,"end":7591.156,"text":"那另外可能要注意到的是在這種情況之下短期來講也許可以讓習近平更加的掌控軍權但中長期來講那可能他在軍事決策上會比較出現的問題是在於大家都表態政治正確而不敢在軍事的專業意見上提出跟可能領導人不同的一個意見那這會讓他的一個決策的視野比較線索那我們會注意到可能對於台海安全意涵的影響"},{"start":7591.656,"end":7619.978,"text":"那之前也跟委員有討論過啦過程當中會不會比較年輕的將領也會有積極要表現的機會而在台海有冒進的動作那這部分我們再來加強關注好 謝謝局長那也請我們管局這邊持續掌握相關的資訊以確保我們國家的安全好 謝謝局長各位好 我們宣告一下待會王安祥委員資訊完畢後我們休息六分鐘"},{"start":7628.907,"end":7641.66,"text":"現在我們請林祖英委員 謝謝謝謝主席 主席有請蔡局長請局長"},{"start":7648.84,"end":7668.798,"text":"好 謝謝主席 林委員長主席好 局長好這個有關於我想質詢的內容跟題目其實也不是新的 因為之前我在針對國防部的時候有質詢過那就是徐澄英的這個案子昨天也開庭了那麼其實如果根據起訴書是看不出來但是開庭的相關內容有"},{"start":7670.519,"end":7690.528,"text":"部分的時間點包括到2025年的10月孫憲這個人他都還進入台灣那麼我不講個案我想要請問一個通案的狀況就是我們知道現在中國人進來台灣尤其是像孫憲這種他有特殊的身份可能帶有特殊任務的其實移民署是會經過審查的可是我們發現到2025年的10月他都還進來台灣而最近我也收到了許多的朋友提醒"},{"start":7699.432,"end":7719.588,"text":"包括像有這個中國的網紅他呢穿著這個所謂中國的這種古裝到全世界甚至於進來台灣不斷的去宣傳說台灣是中國的一部分那像這樣的一個網紅為什麼他可以自由進出台灣那到底是用一個什麼樣的身份是不是說就是用這種所謂的"},{"start":7722.671,"end":7745.885,"text":"假商務交流但是實質上是在做統戰甚至於是現在已經進行像孫憲這種所謂滲透的實質任務那會不會變成是說根據我們現在兩岸人民關係條例喔如果你要進來的話必須要有一個審查而現在這個審查只是要給一個切結書是不是這個切結書現在都留於一種形式是不是這些所謂商業的公司都變成了"},{"start":7746.926,"end":7764.589,"text":"真的匪諜就在你我的身邊而且他們是假商務之名但是行滲透之時是不是這個過程現在國安局有發現而這樣的一個狀況那麼是不是要有嘉妍又或者是什麼樣的特殊的人物在這個審查不至於流於一種形式主義"},{"start":7765.88,"end":7780.299,"text":"跟委員說明一下也謝謝委員長期對於國安共諜案件的關切那我剛才在跟媒體朋友做說明了就現在在媒體上看到的所有共諜案我可以跟委員報告全部都是由我們國安系統來發動的來立案查查的"},{"start":7782.702,"end":7802.462,"text":"那有涉及到違法的事證的話我們再細簡移交給司法單位來做整版那後續才會有委員所看到的起訴書的相關的內容這大概是不就個案來講就通案來講我們的一個處理的過程大概第一部分那第二部分是委員關切到有沒有一些入籍的人士到台灣來那審查了機制的運作的狀況"},{"start":7803.203,"end":7824.909,"text":"那我們大概都有一個聯審的機制那在場的移民署也都會通報到國安局這邊來提供我們的國安意見那我們會注意的是他申請人他相關的一個黨政背景的一個狀況那或是他也許沒有黨政背景但是他很有可能是一個網紅的身份那以前在網路上有曾經張貼比較異常的這個資訊我們都有在注意啦"},{"start":7827.15,"end":7840.113,"text":"那有時候讓他們進來是必要的我們才能夠了解大概活動跟交往的狀況那所以有些的案子我們的整個的過程的處理可能都要蠻長的時間幾年時間可能都要所以局長的意思就是說其實有的時候讓他們進來是所謂的放長線釣大魚"},{"start":7848.635,"end":7875.693,"text":"是這個意思嗎?對不對?就是說你們查查的方法跟了解有的時候懷疑但是也會有做必要的這個在安全上面的防護、了解對,然後另外會有兩個狀況第一個狀況是假如他進來之後的活動跟他申請來台目的不一樣的話我們會啟動我們的機制及時驅離出境第二部分,假如他來台的活動有涉及到異常的話我記得我應該是在前年啟動一個機制我們會進行必要的約談"},{"start":7878.095,"end":7903.545,"text":"那也會列入我們的名單下次要來可能就比較沒有那麼容易但我們會配合到相關的案情案況來判斷要不要讓他來那因為這影響到我們的一些部署好那麼如果說是一個最新的訊息包括就是現在中國他會利用台灣的言論自由那麼以到台灣來進入落地採訪的方式原本是希望把台灣政治自由民主的部分報導回去"},{"start":7903.945,"end":7915.038,"text":"但是會以像最新的訊息現在包括像海峽島報的新聞中心主任王偉過去那就是以滲透的方式來買通就是朱正琦那麼像這樣的一個狀況媒體如果說已經報導了那像這樣的人"},{"start":7918.882,"end":7942.282,"text":"他在台灣這些年的活動那麼接下來還會繼續讓他留在台灣嗎那像這種的狀況以言論自由的方式其實是傷害台灣的自由民主以言論自由之名然後傷害台灣自由民主那像這樣的人的話會請他離開嗎又或者是說接下來他就像剛剛局長所說的會特別的來嚴厲的審查甚至於取消他的入台的資格"},{"start":7943.803,"end":7960.131,"text":"這大概兩個部分,剛有各位說明,進來一定都會經過審查的,那有一個聯審的機制。那第二個是他進來之後的言行,包括言論跟行為,那假如有設法的話,包括鼓吹武統,造成民眾的恐慌,甚至有時候網民都已經檢舉到我們相關的單位了。"},{"start":7961.812,"end":7987.052,"text":"那這個我們就會很快速的處理我們也曾經很短的幾個小時之內透過市區的監視器掌握那個人的動態那即時的把他驅離出境這是有的只要是違法的話那第二部分就是他假如沒有涉及到違法但是是違常違異常異常違常的狀態的話那這個部分我剛有跟委員說明我們也許會啟動約談或是列為下次拒絕入境的名單加強審查所以對於這個"},{"start":7989.213,"end":8011.938,"text":"相關的國安單位來說啦,不只是國安局,包括調查局、移民署等等,說實話,在這樣的一個所謂聯合審查的國安體制當中,你們的這個所謂業務只會越來越繁忙,因為我們台灣畢竟是一個往來自由,然後言論自由的一個體制之下,好,那麼另外當然我關注的這個部分喔,"},{"start":8012.338,"end":8039.019,"text":"接下來是不是國安單位恐怕也要跟我們相關的包括工程會等等那就是對於像這個極致公司他事實上他不只是把這個孫憲帶進台灣甚至於他還承接了政府的多項標案我算了一下光2022年喔他承接的標案就超到2022年為止他承接的標案就高達1300萬"},{"start":8041.241,"end":8059.333,"text":"言下之意是用我們人民的納稅錢真正的在養共諜啊這個是完全我相信全台灣人民都不能接受的那像這樣的公司喔未來我相信絕對是黑名單但是負責人呢因為公司可以關了再開對不對"},{"start":8061.907,"end":8077.414,"text":"這樣相關的人士會不會有一個機制讓這樣的負責人就算未來他開公司這完全已經是傷害到國家了一個把共諜引進來的公司然後拿人民納稅的錢用政府的標案養共諜"},{"start":8078.314,"end":8095.474,"text":"這是絕對不能允許的那有沒有一個這樣的機制把它列為黑名單甚至於是這一個負責人或相關的負責人都應該成為黑名單絕對不能標正不標準尤其是你看他選的單位國防大學調查局國防部榮總"},{"start":8097.316,"end":8117.884,"text":"那像這些都是攸關到全民的全民防衛非常重要擁有角色的雖然我質詢的時候都說回去審查過了發現他們沒有接觸到核心機密資料或等等但是這也表示他選的單位非常的不一般所以我在這邊想要提醒就是國安局問一下局長你怎麼來看"},{"start":8118.544,"end":8127.618,"text":"好 謝謝委員的提醒那也正如委員的接收到的資訊我們也去了解各單位跟這一家特定廠商"},{"start":8129.619,"end":8151.87,"text":"合作的一個狀況那因為廠商確實當時都有合格的因為委員也了解每個政府機構都有我們的政風系統去確認是不是合格廠商才能進入發包的程序所以程序看起來是沒有問題那但是委員提醒的是我們要注意的也就是說畢竟廠商還是有比較為異常的一個背景那他假如說又有承包到相關政府機敏單位的一些資"},{"start":8153.53,"end":8171.818,"text":"訓工程軟硬體的話那我們確實要注意雖然各單位在盤查過程當中發現不是有聯網的狀況的這些設備啦資安風險比較低那但是或許我們來注意不管是廠商或廠商背後的法人代表有沒有其他的新成立的公司這部分我們再來加強注意一下好 就是"},{"start":8172.478,"end":8188.343,"text":"包括這個公司它一定絕對不可能再有機會標政府的標案但是公司的負責人或者是重要因為像這樣的公司它可能不會只有負責人有時候甚至於負責人可能都只是掛名負責人那麼包括它可能涉案的程序未來這樣的人"},{"start":8189.383,"end":8208.38,"text":"他如果說還要繼續開公司甚至於是借殼上市然後借屍還魂等等那其實他都沒有機會來標政府的標案而且不是只有機敏的我認為他來標政府的標案就是用人民的納稅錢然後讓這些共諜可以自由的行走在台灣"},{"start":8209.7,"end":8229.55,"text":"事實上我們局裡面是有比其他政府單位更嚴格的一套機制那也謝謝委員的提醒我們也先從我們國安情報機關開始包括我們局裡面的做法給各單位來做個參考針對這些比較為異常的廠商來加強把關避免他們來承攬相關的發報的業務謝謝委員提醒謝謝"},{"start":8236.212,"end":8236.633,"text":"主席長 有請蔡局長"},{"start":8260.785,"end":8277.69,"text":"我想對國家安全來說因為我們現在受到中國很大的威脅我想美國對我們來說應該是非常重要的戰略夥伴所以在我們公開的報告裡面第一頁就看到美國他們基本上採用了"},{"start":8278.45,"end":8298.283,"text":"所謂實力追求和平不過這幾天我想大家都看到這個美國啊真的這個深不可測啊這個昨天晚上還說要這個打一副要打的樣子今天早上我們這個一覺醒來發現就這個好像可以演兩週啊今天早上剛剛我看那個股市又開始大漲所以對於美國這個"},{"start":8300.484,"end":8329.109,"text":"好像態度很特別不曉得國安單位對於跟美方的關係上有沒有什麼特別的看法今天早上還在跟媒體做說明中東的情勢是我們跟國際友盟交換情資一個重點的議題大概美方在過程當中他很強調實力為原則所以在第一波的軍事打擊幾乎把伊朗的海空軍都給做了癱瘓但是伊朗因為透過不對稱的方式持續的來對赫姆茲海峽的航運安全進行洗腦而增加他的一個談判的籌碼"},{"start":8330.089,"end":8359.655,"text":"那美國大概兩個重點跟委員做報告一個部分是軍事上的極限施壓因為他大概調派了這些兩棲攻擊艦、登陸艦集結到總統地區去那也給了最後的讓步的一個期限那第二部分他也透過外交穿梭的方式透過巴基斯坦還有其他種種國家在跟伊朗進行必要的一個相關的談判所以可能在極限施壓跟談判兩手策略之下那有今天早上的結果那在川普總統宣布之後伊朗外長也證實了未來兩週可能荷姆斯海峽的安全"},{"start":8360.995,"end":8386.366,"text":"就是今天為什麼股市會大漲因為我也是同學界來其實我們都在查資料的時候都會看很多各個面向的狀況不過最近看美國這個除了它是為了和平有些不為了美國的利益也可能是它重要的一個考慮之一我也建議這個很多可能要納入考慮所以這個基本上這個可以看到我們在報告書裡面有提到這個是2026裡面的一些"},{"start":8388.947,"end":8413.616,"text":"他的一些戰略美國戰略的一個考慮不過在我們去查了這個2026這個版本裡面包含他的一些國家的戰略報告也有在第二頁安全戰略或者是國防戰略裡面其實我們最近好像發現美國的他的戰略好像有一些做一些改變好像慢慢慢慢過去這個2014 2018左右他們好像都是把中國的威脅"},{"start":8414.176,"end":8421.06,"text":"跟委員說明一下在國防戰略裡面他確實有強調本土防衛跟西半球的防衛但他緊接著馬上又提到的是英泰安全的關注"},{"start":8436.767,"end":8454.615,"text":"畢竟我們看到是公開版可能也有在政治上他們做一些取捨因為後續還是有川習會的一個互動盡量沒有在文字上做一些相關不必要的一個強調不過實際上在戰略佈局上委員長有稍微看一下我們的報告有去說明到"},{"start":8454.975,"end":8481.946,"text":"美國在過程當中怎麼樣來加強跟印太友盟在安保議題防衛議題的合作那這部分不只是雙邊合作多邊的演訓也非常的綿密光這個月在菲律賓應該就有三個長次的美盟的大規模的演訓人數都快到兩萬人之多我了解就是感覺上跟美國的這個合作還是非常綿密啦不過就是有一些這種報告像我剛剛這個我今天在投影片上CSIS這個部分好像看起來很多的用詞"},{"start":8483.146,"end":8500.886,"text":"真的都比較軟了 互相尊重啊然後這個中國保持互相尊重的關係減少一些不必要的對抗我想局長應該有看到這些報告那剛剛也跟委員說明因為他後續還有領導人的會晤所以也有在鋪陳一些比較正面的外交氣氛那不過在安全"},{"start":8501.627,"end":8513.261,"text":"戰略上美國跟我們反制中國的一些作為具體的作為一直有在檯面下推動所以這個也是啦我想國內也非常關心這個川習會的狀況啦我想局長怎麼看現在大概的狀況"},{"start":8514.709,"end":8543.542,"text":"對目前大概基本上他們彼此的爭議的議題都是結構性的那我們在報告當中也特別提到了這包括地緣政治的問題軍事的競爭高科技管制的問題最重要的是還有經貿的議題關稅的議題所以問題林林總總的那都涉及結構性所以結構性就是說短期要根本的解決不容易那但是現在美國所採取的策略跟方法是來管理這些爭議那他們認為跟中國要管理爭議的話一定要鎖定習近平"},{"start":8544.042,"end":8566.854,"text":"因為他是最大領導人你跟官僚溝通接觸沒有用所以一定要跟習近平之間有這樣的領導人會晤的機制所以我看美國方面也為了這次的川習會有做一些相關的一個準備那不過我們的判斷是因為這些結構性的問題都還在所以可能重點是在於看他們怎麼來管理爭議那可能說這次川習會之後我們反倒更"},{"start":8567.994,"end":8586.646,"text":"關注的重點是在於習近平後續的回訪川習會他只是一個開場針對這些議題雙方去表述立場跟意見可是到了習近平回訪美國的時候可能又到了另外一個階段要檢視有沒有在川習會當中相關的承諾有去落實包括美國要開放"},{"start":8587.346,"end":8603.133,"text":"希望中國開放相關美國農產品進入市場到時候會被檢驗所以我想這是一個動態的過程那我們會繼續來駐收因為這個軍購的事情我今天因為我也陪著我們的主席到美國去那我這一條影片就是美國情報社的一些"},{"start":8604.534,"end":8631.334,"text":"就針對中國的威脅啦那看起來很多他都講到所謂這個2027嘛我們一直在討論這個事情啦這跟我們的軍購有關看起來其實他們很多現在內部這個情報是他們的好像感覺上那個他們不覺得剛剛局長有說啦可能跟營造一個好的川習會會有關係啦所以我也希望局長對這個美國這邊的一些態度啦可能要有一些掌握啦因為這個真的是川普他這個這個很多的策略啊其實看不大懂啦"},{"start":8632.834,"end":8657.077,"text":"對 這一部分我們大概跟國際理念相近國家都有保持密切的溝通就是在我們的報告裡面其實有很多擾台的部分包括不論是空軍 海軍或者一些漁船或是它關閉一些訊號局長是不是還是可以跟我們的國人講說我們這個國安單我們都有密切的掌握可以報告大家跟大家說一下就是我們大概都有掌握"},{"start":8657.857,"end":8672.53,"text":"有這部分在涉密的報告閉門會議當中有跟委員做充分的說明包括我們運用各種的情資來源來掌握中共包括共軍還有海上會在洗腦的整體的動態我想這個全民都非常非常關注"},{"start":8673.231,"end":8690.534,"text":"另外就是資安的部分就是這個這次報告裡面有一個就是一劑因為可能現在一劑而已大概一億七千多萬不過我們過去看過去的報告大概每天大概兩百八十萬次這樣乘起來好像最近還變比較少是不是數字上有一些不是那麼精準"},{"start":8690.994,"end":8710.441,"text":"我跟委員說明一下因為我們在今年的一月中旬有公布一個去年整年的中共對台資安侵擾的狀況對 平均每天嘛對 那個每天是280萬次因為它是一整年的一個數據的統計的結果那但是我們這一次在業務報告當中所公布的就第一季就這一季那特別第一季當中還有涉及到"},{"start":8711.687,"end":8727.404,"text":"年假我知道 年假的部分會比較少對 會比較少所以我們只是針對第一季的總數來做一些呈現那到了年底我們會再把整年的狀況來做一個就是讓我們大概知道一下我們知道這個狀況蠻多的嘛就是這個數字可能還是請局長在出來的時候做一些那個"},{"start":8728.164,"end":8753.76,"text":"那當然我看到前面很多委員都非常關注這個東西啦就是這個共諜案的部分我想就是還是請因為發生非常非常多而且很多人都是蠻重要的位子啦不想局長這個其實剛剛那個金牌裡面有提到一些啦現在我們是不是可以強化一些我們的相關的作為就可以跟大家報告的部分好那這部分中共對台的一些滲透啦還有勤工活動大概都是系統性的"},{"start":8755.001,"end":8771.122,"text":"針對性的跟計劃性的那所謂的系統性的指的是它包括國安系統勤工系統統戰系統他們都有一個非常綿密的組織來推動對台的這些情收次密或發展組織的工作第二個它是計劃性的也就是它都有發展出"},{"start":8771.562,"end":8787.865,"text":"一套的網絡來接觸可能稱為他在台協力者的來自台灣各界的一個人士的一個透過交流來篩選特定的對象他是有計畫性的有時候只是統戰的活動但是從統戰活動當中又去發展出他的情搜的一個網絡"},{"start":8789.126,"end":8810.231,"text":"第三個部分是針對性的那早期大概主要針對的會是軍中比較中階的軍官因為中階軍官比較會接觸到涉密的情資但是現在我們感覺到他的接觸已經開始往基層的士官兵來做接觸所以委員可能也注意到一些共諜案大概這一部分感覺上的那個越來越多"},{"start":8811.011,"end":8838.942,"text":"對 就是最近我想全民都有這種感覺啦而且很多人是涉及到一些精免資料的啦那也是請這個局長這邊再多多的這個關照這個事情有有 剛剛在辯護會有跟委員長報告也建議立法院這邊可能可以有一個法治規範來推動相關的保防還有反侵號的工作對對 因為也不只立法院啦 因為有其他人所以希望這個局長能夠多多加把勁能夠把這個地方能夠鞏固維護這個台灣的國家安全好 這是我們工作 希望有人提醒好 謝謝"},{"start":8842.901,"end":8843.789,"text":"我們現在休息六分鐘"},{"start":9281.55,"end":9308.219,"text":"愿好我们继续开会接下来我们请王定云委员好谢谢主席麻烦局长好问问早"},{"start":9310.066,"end":9335.122,"text":"好 早我今天想focus在一個案子徐春英的這個案子已經起訴那根據地檢署揭露的新聞稿跟起訴的附錄我這邊看第一個圖這個大概都從起訴書的附錄表摘出來的裡面確實是駭人聽聞包含涉犯的洗錢的金額接近三千萬元"},{"start":9336.323,"end":9355.495,"text":"包含呢自備三萬元兩張假的證明一張假的薪資轉單就可以貸款2697萬去買了一間房子自備三萬新台幣而已貸了2697萬那另外呢要透過三個政黨"},{"start":9356.826,"end":9379.86,"text":"去爭取中國人士擔任立委發展政治實質影響力另外協助中國人士取得台灣國籍不管是六改四或者一些戶籍放棄的簡化這都他接受的命令在裡面的對話內容都會看到那我這邊特別不去提哪幾個政黨我都認為被滲透的政黨也許是受害者看他的態度啦"},{"start":9380.66,"end":9409.242,"text":"那另外呢中共的官員用偽裝的偽造的理由入境長期在台灣發展組織所以這是一個不擇不扣也許起訴的條文是反滲透法但對國安的威脅它就是一個中共的網絡諜報組織我第一個先請教局長你們看徐春英這個起訴書的內容當然國安局掌握全國的情攻啦你們看到了什麼有沒有什麼該提醒國人的"},{"start":9410.046,"end":9436.905,"text":"好我想因為這案子在司法偵辦但是我早上有在跟媒體朋友說明大概我原先看到所有共諜案幾乎都是我們發動偵辦的那有事證之後再移送到包含這個對就再移送到那個司法機關來進行偵處還有進入起訴的過程所以大概整個過程我們都知道案件的內容你不便透露我的意思說像這樣的案子其實"},{"start":9438.306,"end":9467.166,"text":"讓人家很害怕他已經發展到國會裡面來了他已經發展到實質政治的組織甚至於把所有中國籍的配偶的組織網絡串起來坦白講這對這些中國籍的配偶是很不公平的他在監控他們看他們的言行有沒有符合母國的要求他們的祖國的要求可是對台灣就產生實質的民主的破口所以我說國安局在這個案例上"},{"start":9468.171,"end":9492.393,"text":"你看到是個案還是通案?我想個案值得重視那主要還是通案的部分大概中共對台的這些勤工的部署跟滲透他都是有系統性的有計畫性的有針對性的挑選特定的對象那在針對這特定對象去發展他背後的一個網絡那所以這部分這個個案顯示大概就是這樣的一個中共對台勤工的一個手段"},{"start":9493.806,"end":9523.142,"text":"陸委會的副主委梁文傑說大家應該想讀這一個起訴書但是因為起訴書目前地檢署公布的是新聞稿摘要跟一些附錄我認為官局可以建議這一個陸委會在符合法律的要求部分人士去識別化全文的PDF檔應該要提供出來我覺得這個是如果看到那個內容他的對話跟中國的壽命還有他拿到錢去做什麼事情還有"},{"start":9523.562,"end":9544.407,"text":"中國籍配偶怎麼對待中國籍配偶其實你看到的是一個不只是長臂管轄而是實質對台灣的一個破壞所以你看到這個對話內容大概是從他的腹錄摘出來的那我們看到他相關的人物像孫憲是他們的民革上海市委以及他算是統戰部的高階的人員"},{"start":9545.507,"end":9569.789,"text":"另外楊文濤是中國民政部的,其實也是官員然後呢,鍾景明是促進會的會長,這個是同案的被告他是一個兩岸婚姻協調促進會會長,有一個組織名稱在那邊那李貞秀也在那邊提到有關詢問接班可能性以及相關的事情,這都在起訴書裡面那另外有一個污點證人叫羅穎"},{"start":9571.05,"end":9594.965,"text":"那這個我不知道名字有沒有保護起來啦他是徐春英的友人所以我們看到這相關的網絡呢我們就有一個體會我們看下一張其實我個人認為被共諜滲透的其實基本上我們先看他是受害者當年的蔣介石旁邊的共諜何其多連他的打字員秘書那個Holiday英國的一個作者寫的"},{"start":9595.985,"end":9610.787,"text":"一個他被滲透的其實是非常嚴重每一次他要幹嘛中共都會先知道所以蔣介石可以說是中共滲透的受害者只是他採取那我們怎麼判斷是不是受害者呢他們甘願被他滲透 他沒有"},{"start":9611.468,"end":9635.222,"text":"他會反制他會逮捕甚至於槍決可以所以做得過頭了變白色恐怖那是另外一件事情也就是說被共諜滲透不管是歷史上的蔣介石或者國內的主要政治組織或者政府機關基本上只要你不是甘願被他滲透的都可以把它定義為受害者我認為任何政黨政治人物都一樣但是你要有作為我被滲透了"},{"start":9636.702,"end":9657.167,"text":"檢舉移送法辦建立國安法制去把他逮捕出來你對共諜的滲透深惡痛絕那這個是受害者如果被滲透了還去阻撓國安法律的嚴謹或者被滲透了還幫被抓到的人講話那這是不是受害者就未必了會進到第二種類別"},{"start":9658.587,"end":9681.646,"text":"不知情卻動手協助共諜滲透的這有點像在地協力者但是如果知情還協助共諜滲透的那你根本就是共諜本人我不知道局長對我這樣的分類看法有什麼想法對 尊重 委員有一個邏輯在尊重委員的一個分類跟看法我不要隨便說這個誰誰誰被滲透了他就是共諜 不一定因為從歷史上從蔣介石一直到現在"},{"start":9683.087,"end":9707.548,"text":"被滲透當然是敵人想要攻破的碉堡重要的是被滲透人士或組織的態度如果你被滲透了你認為應該強化應該隔絕那當然是受害者如果被滲透了還掩護他你可能是不知情的協作者如果你被滲透了發現你還幫他滲透幫他發展幫他講話維護那這可能就共諜本人了所以在這一個徐春英的案件我最後要問的一個邏輯是能夠"},{"start":9711.167,"end":9732.7,"text":"成就他的工作的就他滲透發展組織受上海那邊相關的命令甚至於地下會對兩千大概快三千萬這些過程當中能夠成就他的成績工作成績的人或政黨算是什麼角色有沒有在偵辦中"},{"start":9734.324,"end":9756.025,"text":"對我想個案我不適合公開的討論包括剛剛在機密報告當中也有委員提出一些共諜案那我在那種場合比較會多做一些說明那因為這案子已經在偵辦過程當中那大概他都還是有一個網絡相關的案官關係人那我換個方式問徐淳英的起訴書是不是案件的全貌"},{"start":9758.438,"end":9787.077,"text":"我不評論檢察官公布的一個狀況這一個部分我覺得這三種分類協力者典型的還繼續協力當然有法律問題如果是協助者知情而且協助的而且甚至於位居廟堂或者是位居高院不管什麼政黨我覺得該辦就要辦甚至該揭露就要揭露這個其實是對兩千三百萬人的生存是很重要的一件事情我最後請教一下"},{"start":9787.958,"end":9806.06,"text":"在台灣的國防預算或國防特別預算或對美軍購我推整了大概近半年來也不到半年 近四五個月中國不管朱鳳蓮 張小剛 張晗甚至習近平本人 毛寧等等他針對的發言其實不意外啦"},{"start":9806.781,"end":9824.867,"text":"中共當然反對台灣國防預算反對國防特別預算反對對美軍購每次都講一堆啦他不講他自己的國防預算每年增加7%到8兆他也不講他每天用軍事威脅台灣他卻指著台灣說你要武裝自己這裡不對那裡不對就是"},{"start":9825.467,"end":9841.119,"text":"流氓在恐嚇別人刀槍都握在手上然後防衛自己的人拿起盾牌說你武裝自己呢什麼以武謀獨啊什麼的他的反對態度其實非常明確不意外也不是新聞我要請教局長了"},{"start":9842,"end":9858.673,"text":"就你們目前掌握中共如何遂行他的反對他反對嘛他反對台灣最好你都沒有國防預算嘛國防特別預算越少越好最好沒有嘛對美軍共每次都反對嘛還制裁要對台軍售的那些企業或者是實體好那我現在請問中國從口頭的反對"},{"start":9866.019,"end":9886.304,"text":"到實質運作讓他這樣的意志可以遂行他有沒有具體的執行的策略有有有這部分剛如美林委員也有在提問那我大概的說明就是說中共對台的政策大概一般都是合戰兩手一方面透過軍事的施壓來說造兵戰的氣氛讓台灣民眾心裡感到恐慌"},{"start":9886.744,"end":9900.056,"text":"但另外一方面要透過一些兩岸的一些交流交往來推宣他所謂中國主導的兩岸和平以及這個中國主導兩岸和平所外溢出來的所謂的和平紅利來進行一些撕毀那用這個來鬆動那台灣對於軍購案的支持"},{"start":9902.938,"end":9926.843,"text":"那另外也利用這樣子所謂兩岸存在這種合同的聲音來弱化美國對於台議題的介入跟立場所以它有兩個目的一個是分化台灣內部那一個是分化台美的合作那這部分我想我們現在又在討論這個國防預算的部分那中共這一方面的操作手法甚至看起來有比較加強一些操作那你們有沒有應對的方法"},{"start":9927.998,"end":9944.311,"text":"你讓情報掌握是一件事情嘛那你也講得很客氣嘛其實他們的反對在台灣他遂行的方法很多種啦民眾也都看得很清楚那如果踩到法律的紅線那是歸法律出來但在政治上的運作有沒有應對的方式"},{"start":9944.751,"end":9969.454,"text":"對 基本上我們特別在揭露的是中共對台的統戰的策略跟手法那剛剛在跟委員說明的也是把重點放在這個部分那來讓大家知道說我們可能國人在進行兩岸交流過程當中可能要注意到中共的這些推動交流過程背後還是有一個政治上跟統戰上的一個我最後請問你好 蒙哥馬利來台灣參加那個陳冠廷的研討會嘛"},{"start":9970.535,"end":9987.222,"text":"那他有提到如果持續阻擋這樣的國防預算不管特別預算或國防預算對川普政府來講他只看結果他可能會有一個collective就是他會有一個綜合性的打擊等於對台灣的處罰你自己都不重視自己的安全了"},{"start":9988.591,"end":10007.224,"text":"你展現態度是這樣子那對川普政府來講他要做取捨或者做所謂的懲罰你們掌握的情報是什麼對這部分主要是我們在夜報過程當中有提到美國現在強調的還是以實力來追求和平所以也不斷的在鼓勵各個區域我們加強國防的投資那建構起"},{"start":10008.785,"end":10036.485,"text":"台灣國內持續被杯葛被弱化那你假如說台灣自己在這個部分比較沒有一些積極的作為的話那你當然就會弱化了人家願意來支持台灣的一個基本的立場那再邀請台灣參加雙多邊的一些軍事或安保合作議題的話也比較會質疑台灣在自己努力所投資的這個國防預算的部分那可能沒有達到大家的一個期待所以會造成區域聯防會有一個破口變成安全網絡的一個破口這個等於是對國家全體人民的懲罰"},{"start":10037.265,"end":10063.562,"text":"那對於阻撓的實體它本身會做什麼樣的動作嗎?有沒有消息?這個部分基本上川普政府還是不斷地強調對台軍售是他們一貫的一個政策那我應該也注意到在去年年底所宣布的那個對台軍售案應該是史上最高後續還會有所以美方是一直希望台灣在這個部分能夠加強對自己的國防投資你提到後續還會有是before或after?"},{"start":10064.953,"end":10088.721,"text":"對啊 那時間上當然就看台美溝通的結果跟後續的一個規劃那我剛剛也跟其他委員在做說明就今年來講 包括日本國防預算增加3.7% 韓國增加7%菲律賓增加14%那大概都有呼應到川普政府這種以實力追求和平的一個基本的調戲好 時間關係我們其他部分我們可以私下交流好 謝謝局長謝謝王定一委員"},{"start":10104.517,"end":10114.077,"text":"好 接下來進行詢答的是陳冠廷委員的公開的部分好 謝謝主席 我們請局長來 局長請"},{"start":10123.603,"end":10140.855,"text":"其實明天是我們針對國防的特別條例有朝野協商那在朝野協商部分當然有跟秦箏相關的部分因為這次的國防特別條例也都有所以這也跟國安局的業務是相關那我在這邊是很誠摯的希望我們所有在野黨的委員們能夠一同來參與這樣子的討論就算"},{"start":10143.567,"end":10159.247,"text":"這一次的協商沒有共識但下一次我們可以慢慢的一起摸索出對國家有幫助的道路所以我在這邊還是誠摯的呼籲特別是我們年輕的這個在野黨的委員們我相信他們也很願意跟我們來做討論那也是很誠摯的希望明天有這個機會"},{"start":10160.208,"end":10174.329,"text":"那再來想要請教一下這個局長關於政協會的部分在前夕政協會前夕中共突然有這個突破突然突然設定了這一個無限高的禁飛區40天你有沒有得到政官的資訊你覺得這是持續性作戰戰備的態勢嗎"},{"start":10176.371,"end":10188.258,"text":"這次劃設的空域保留區,大概是在江浙外海的空域時間是3月28日到5月6日我們注意到劃設有五個區塊,範圍蠻大的,時間也蠻長的判斷在軍事上可能有點用來反制外國的軍機在該空域的活動狀況"},{"start":10196.743,"end":10214.468,"text":"當然外國有能力軍機在當地活動主要還是以美國為主另外在政治上因為時間剛好截止到川習會的前一個禮拜所以也有可能在這段時間來測試跟試探美國在相關空域活動的一個狀況也做一些政治上的一個"},{"start":10215.508,"end":10242.369,"text":"試水溫跟試碳好 謝謝局長那第二個問題就是剛才我們不斷地在討論的關於就是供電案很多不管是國會的有些是可能是在國會的助理有些可能是在行政的機關甚至是最高的機關那都有那我們一直想問的是說有沒有機會讓助理能夠有機會能夠接受這個安全查核但是需要有法源那這個法源的部分我們其實有提出的這個國家機密"},{"start":10243.83,"end":10266.361,"text":"保護法第14條的修正草案在裡面我還是要強調我們還是希望說由行政院院板提出來一個跨部會的一個條例因為我們自己思考的方式可能沒有那麼完整其實我們有邀請法規局立法院的法規局也來去做相關的討論它不是只有政府人員"},{"start":10267.401,"end":10287.894,"text":"它已經擴大到約聘人員到這個國防的廠商廠商的承包人員到任何涉密的人員一般民眾它不是要傷害人民的權利而是說如果你想要接觸這些機密你就先要得到這些核可所以它是權利而不是義務而不是傷害到人民的這些權利"},{"start":10288.474,"end":10311.335,"text":"這個有點不太一樣的為什麼說美國他們把拿到安全合格視為是甚至是一種榮譽嘛就代表說你的忠誠有被合格了那你的財務紀錄你的犯罪紀錄你的個人的等等的這些存活的紀錄都是經過合格的所以我也看到我之前有問說這個國安局針對這些在場區你們國安局內如果有一些設施維護的話"},{"start":10312.256,"end":10329.156,"text":"那這些進入營區的廠商人員是不是要經過安全查核那你們的回覆說明是可以的那這些人他既不是公務員他不是公務員的身份但他可以接受查核所以我認為是說最快的方法是思考到底有沒有哪些行政命令可以讓"},{"start":10330.057,"end":10344.31,"text":"包含像我們國會有一些志願想要接受安全查核因為他可能會接觸到一些機密的人能夠接受這樣子的查核這才可以避免說每次只要亦有相關的這個供點案件的話我們朝野就是互相指責你看你旁邊有"},{"start":10345.651,"end":10372.201,"text":"當然我也會做這是政治上的這個批判因為我認為說如果經過了三年四年五年六年那我們的這個各個的行政機關都已經有被滲透的跡象的話那我們除了法律上面的修法可能要曠日廢時之外有沒有可能在行政命令上面去思考一下去尋找一下有沒有已經可以的法源你們這邊就有啦你們有法源依據所以你們可以讓進來廠商的必須要接受"},{"start":10372.901,"end":10375.922,"text":"對這部分剛剛也在討論當中有去這樣的建議就是說只要立法院關切這個問題的話還是要有一個法制或是規範"},{"start":10389.969,"end":10417.962,"text":"那讓其他的行政部門可以能夠到立法院來進行相關的不是只有立法院我們現在講的是所有的院會一般民眾也都會跟這個政府的採購等等都會有關係那我說能不能提出一個院版那我當然知道說剛才君老師尊重立法院說這個可能會影響到立法院的這些人士那這樣不是 不是針對立法院而是一個普遍性的原則也包含立法院這個普遍性的原則也包含立法院不是針對立法院包含立法院"},{"start":10418.442,"end":10435.115,"text":"因為我們看到其實很多學術單位也會有啊接觸到基民基訓的也會有但假如是行政院相關的行政規範的話他沒有辦法延伸到沒有沒有我現在講說院版的修法的修法的好不好提出院版的修法行政秘密可能沒有辦法但是院版的修法"},{"start":10436.196,"end":10458.622,"text":"這個提出來我們立法院就可以來去審議我們立法院參與的話就沒有侵害到立法院的問題就是我們要參與審議因為這部分管局有些作業的機制我們再跟院方來討論看怎麼樣把現在的經驗做一些經驗的分享因為這個東西會層次不窮那我們都可能會遇到周遭我們遇到的人那麼多有有有 很多委員都在提醒這一點好不好好 盡快一下 好 謝謝好 謝謝 兩位請回"},{"start":10470.123,"end":10482.794,"text":"好 謝謝那我們請劉許廷委員謝謝主席先請那個國防部政治作戰局使局長請局長"},{"start":10492.827,"end":10507.908,"text":"局長午安今天針對這個國軍官兵的急難貸款跟你做一下討論為什麼從這樣子的話題來切入呢因為大家都講這段時間發生的部分的所謂的國安破口其實是來自於"},{"start":10508.708,"end":10529.294,"text":"這個部分的國軍官兵可能有經濟上的困難跟需求嘛那被這個老共逮到了空子他就用這個示意小惠用利用的這個方式然後要交換出賣國家機密嘛這因為這個很小條的東西然後造成情報的流失跟機密的外洩這我想對於我們國家安全來講當然是得不償失嘛那我想這除了"},{"start":10531.134,"end":10559.12,"text":"這個該懲治的要懲治該防堵的要防堵之外我們也要思考一下怎麼樣從源頭解決這個問題所以今天從這個角度來切入這時候國安局的報告裡面有講就是說用網路平台為媒介利誘尋求借貸的現退役軍人以稅刑交付機敏資訊換取資金以及拍攝效忠影片錄音檔事業書等等任務就有58人現退役軍人數32人佔比55%所以我想這是一個問題那當然這個政戰局也提出了一些方案"},{"start":10559.76,"end":10584.673,"text":"從今年的1月1號開始開辦國軍官兵的集單貸款也就是說我因應這個事國軍確實會有一些人經濟上的困難或短期的需求比照公教的方式做了一些這個制度上的設計去避免說因為小的經濟困難然後變找地下錢莊然後越滾越大然後被迫走投無路去處理這個事情所以現在是不管志願役、義務役都可以身帶然後10萬元以下免保人等等"},{"start":10585.413,"end":10608.28,"text":"那如果沒有辦法服役者當然你就要離英錢繳清嘛這些狀況大概是這樣但我今天要提一個事情就是國防部的版本裡面這個國軍官兵的急難貸款裡面的配套裡面有一個剩餘役期啊如果沒有到六個月他沒有辦法就使用這樣子的一個政策的優惠這個有沒有為德不足之處啊這個局長要不要回答一下"},{"start":10609.731,"end":10624.859,"text":"謝委員有關於現在集蛋貸款的部分主要我們還是得考慮到我們現在跟銀行的一個合作的一個機制那當然我們還是要考慮他還款的能力這是第一個"},{"start":10625.339,"end":10651.905,"text":"第二個我們針對國軍官兵他的財務失衡的一個狀況所以我們不僅僅是針對他財務可能有問題的一個情形我們另外也針對他財務失衡的狀況我們各級部隊都會有所掌握掌握之後我們了解他的一個原因除了跟他本人了解之外我們也透過家訪的方式了解他財務失衡的一個狀況"},{"start":10653.439,"end":10668.47,"text":"這些都是你現在在做的事嘛 是我今天就談為什麼我特別去提疫情不足六個月這件事情我為什麼會講說它叫違德不足原因是這樣嘛我想當初提這個東西除了照顧國軍之外也要防堵破口嘛但現在如果是剩餘疫情不足六個月的人不能身帶的話"},{"start":10669.23,"end":10691.246,"text":"我覺得它會形成所謂的雙重風險第一重我六個月之後我就要退役了我沒有要在國軍裡面發展等等我就沒有你講比較難聽一點可能就沒有包袱了嘛對不對我去做一些奇奇怪怪的事情大概也比較不會有顧忌對不對因為我沒有要繼續走這條路要繼續發展加上我如果真的遇到經濟困難我剛好又被這個六個月的條款排除在外經濟困難又沒有辦法解決"},{"start":10691.846,"end":10720.725,"text":"我覺得就會形成所謂的雙重風險就讓這一群人反而變成更容易被滲透的對象當然我們都希望不要發生這個事但他難免有可能有這樣的一個狀況那我有看到嘛因為我們的貸款的這個款源我們也有提撥相關的基金嘛讓銀行有更大的空間去擔保等等另外就我們國軍應該退退之後六個月退退理論上應該會有退五金嘛會有一些相關的這樣東西這能不能做一個綜合的考量然後把這個這個這個規範稍微放寬不要變得為得不足"},{"start":10722.006,"end":10739.695,"text":"是 謝謝委員的指教我想第一步我們先做到可以先解決官兵急難能夠有可以跟銀行借一筆錢出來先解決眼前的問題那我想委員剛剛提到這第二步也許我們在第一步檢討完了之後我們可以做進一步的一個討論"},{"start":10740.856,"end":10769.711,"text":"好 這有用開放的心態來看這件事情所以其實當然可以接受那就希望在一段時間你當然可以設定一段時間但我也要提醒我剛剛特別提這一段就是因為有雙重風險的問題如果在這一段你第一階段的事情的時候請你特別針對這個六個月以前的你可能要花更多的心力去了解那如果說制度修正比較有效率那就趕快來做制度的修正這本席給偵探局的這樣一個建議希望大家可以把這個破口把它堵起來好 謝謝偵探局長請回謝謝委員長那請國安局蔡局長"},{"start":10779.512,"end":10798.369,"text":"劉委員長局長你好今天討論一下維安相關的現在大家都針對比如說政府總統或者委員院長等等一些維安尤其是他們是政治人物難免出席群眾場合等等現在大家擔心比如說無人機它會不會是一個新的維安上的威脅或者是一個破口"},{"start":10798.849,"end":10827.632,"text":"那過去的時候我們要針對這種無人機的騷擾也好徵收也好有不同的反制手段比如說軟殺也就是用干擾的方式我讓你飛不起來我讓你落地那硬殺我當然就直接擊墜嘛大概是這樣子的兩個邏輯那如果是考量維安大部分應該不會在大庭廣眾面前把無人機擊落恐怕實務效果比較難處理所以大部分從維安的角度出發大家都採取訊號干擾的這樣的一個方式來處理沒有錯吧對目前是這樣目前是這樣好那現在"},{"start":10828.473,"end":10847.867,"text":"因為無人機的這個技術一直在更新啦那現在本期有了解到比如說在烏克蘭的戰場上出現的光纖無人機就看起來是無線 它其實是有線的嘛因為以前是無線訊號我只要打斷了無線訊號無人機它當然就必須要降落嘛或者是掉下來等等那現在的光纖無人機而且實體的 有線的而且距離好像還蠻長的這個長達"},{"start":10850.949,"end":10873.774,"text":"數十公里 當然是媒體報導 姑且引用之那它優勢是什麼 它抗電子干擾我的軟砂效果可能會失效 然後它還不以前訊號不好 畫面傳不回來 塗床等等會有問題 現在沒有嘛 那光纖好像也不是特別特別難的技術啦也就是說這光纖無人機啊 已經出現 甚至我們自己國內這因應國防等等 也都有開始進行一些採購那現在"},{"start":10876.81,"end":10898.533,"text":"這樣的狀況在上一次國安局我們在內政委會以前開過會在討論治安狀況跟強化維安的時候有講就我們針對無人機的徵收干擾等等我們還是用採購無人機干擾槍的方式來做處理那麼因應不依靠這種遙控不依靠這種訊號的所謂的光纖無人機現在國安局有沒有針對這樣的可能性進行一些研討或者是提出新的反制措施"},{"start":10899.894,"end":10913.869,"text":"謝謝劉委員的提醒跟關注這個涉及到元首維安的議題因為中共也有可能在對台的一個可能軍事的一個行動當中也會不排除有這種所謂的斬首的行動那當然這要"},{"start":10914.389,"end":10936.396,"text":"分不同的一個場景在平時就像我們在內政委員會跟委員報告說明的平時可能重視的是對於商規無人機這種訊號的干擾或迫降讓他回到原地那但是到了比較國家比較緊急的時候那可能我們要啟動的是針對軍規的無人機他可能發動了相關的攻擊那所以這部分可能除了我們的"},{"start":10937.236,"end":10959.498,"text":"國安局的特勤中心以外我們要結合到國防部這邊整體的防空的位數那透過郭城的截擊來避免這些無人機迫近到元首的所在地活動的地點而造成對元首有危害所以這部分我們是有一些配置的當然你講的軍規當然是在有衝突的情況之下戰爭的時候那當然就是通通擊落嘛這沒有什麼好講但我的意思是說這些"},{"start":10960.459,"end":10986.912,"text":"光纖無人機它有沒有可能它是軟性的方式我可能只是來蒐集情報偷拍有的沒的被這樣子應用的時候它就比較尷尬因為你講比如說在軍事要塞關鍵基礎設施那就很好處理就極弱也沒有關係但是比如說維安人很多的時候它就有一些狀況那我希望我今天只是提醒就是國安局也好國防部也好針對這種光纖無人機它如果被用在這種軟性的群眾場合的時候可能要提早做一下部署"},{"start":10987.632,"end":11010.531,"text":"怎麼針對這種光纖無人機也要進行反制的措施去確保大家的安全 可以嗎可以 這部分有在評估一些新的因應的方式那我們跟國防部 縣指部這邊大概都有做一些專欄的討論好 那如果討論有一些明確的進展的時候也要盡快的跟國會來報告讓我們去了解這些進展 可以嗎好 謝謝牛委員好 謝謝辛苦了好 謝謝牛許庭委員"},{"start":11011.252,"end":11037.851,"text":"因為這個刑事案件跟財務紀錄的瑕疵也可能會讓受查核者失去安全核可的資格在美國是這樣所以如果院版的這個安全查核如果可以提出來也包含這個部分的話我覺得會更加完整那接下來我們請洪孟凱委員好主席謝謝麻煩請我們國安局蔡局長我們請國安局蔡局長"},{"start":11044.911,"end":11071.106,"text":"謝謝主席 黃委員好好 局長好 局長本席引用一個委員的質詢我幾乎沒有引用過但這個我覺得是很重要的國安議題林俊憲委員在上禮拜他質詢的時候指出他說跟賴清德總統去亞太球場看棒球比賽整整三四個小時現場完全沒手機收訊連總統隨行助理手機都沒訊號那會不會造成是一個失聯的狀態"},{"start":11072.455,"end":11093.413,"text":"我覺得這相對來講嚴重喔所以說我想先確認一下說三四個小時賴清德總統到亞太球場看球有沒有沒有收訊因為這是林俊憲委員他直接點名整整三四個小時現場完全沒手機訊號然後他還特別舔到說連總統的隨行助理手機都沒訊號一直到總統離開總統車隊上車在室外手機還沒有訊號"},{"start":11099.518,"end":11127.399,"text":"嚴不嚴重我剛有瞭解一下我們在現場並沒有開遮屏器故意去進行通訊的干擾沒有那第二個是我們的瞭解是現場的收訊的條件比較不好可能因為人比較多人多嘛因為兩萬五千人在那邊但重點好重點是局長有沒有聽到重點重點就是總統在一個地點如果說連他的隨戶連他的隨行都沒有訊號那真的發生事情"},{"start":11128.239,"end":11147.291,"text":"怎麼聯繫委員放心啦因為我們的我沒有辦法放心是因為林俊憲委員講出一個大白話讓我們覺得說突然間總統在一個沒有收訊的地方三四個小時那結果你現在跟我講說委員放心我不知道我要怎麼放心我要講的放心是我們特勤委員都還有其他的通訊裝備會掌握現場的狀況來對這就是本席想要詢問的"},{"start":11148.271,"end":11175.276,"text":"就是說其實我們現在看到連新聞媒體記者他們現在開直播都會背一個叫5G包啊那某種程度上它就是一個加強訊號那本席要講的是說現在總統的危安因為這個從這件事情看得出來我覺得這跟總統過去到現在他的一個出席的場合有很大的關係為什麼我們知道總統要出席一個場合事先會先有國安人員或是說相關的危安人員先去現場場刊"},{"start":11176.556,"end":11196.45,"text":"第二 那一個現場到底是什麼樣的情況場刊的時候跟現場的狀況可能不一定一樣因為場刊的時候沒有兩萬五千人的觀眾但突然間在那邊有兩萬五千人的觀眾的時候那可能相對來講這些收訊以及最重要是如果說真的發生什麼危難的時候怎麼樣的逃脫路線 怎麼樣的路線都要規劃"},{"start":11197.831,"end":11219.783,"text":"是 所以本席現在在請教 局長 針對這一個議題跟這一個事件來講有沒有考慮未來總統的維安人員出去的時候至少車上或說相關的配備有增加 譬如說5G包或說相關的通訊設備 有有有以及 好 以及剛剛牛許廷委員所講到的無人機的攻擊"},{"start":11220.863,"end":11245.914,"text":"十年前有一部電影美國白宮拍那個攻擊白宮我想第三集你可以特別回去看一下他就講的是說美國總統被無人機攻擊而且他一次用風群的無人機那這已經是十年前好萊塢拍的影片本席現在不是危言聳聽但本席跟我們所有國人都一樣既然中華民國總統代表中華民國我絕對不可能"},{"start":11247.106,"end":11272.512,"text":"讓我們的總統放在任何的危險的一個狀況也因此國安局的任務跟責任就是要確保總統安全以及他的通訊是良好的美國總統他的野獸那個專車啊上面甚至還有美國總統的血液這個同類型的血或是說相關的飛彈設施怎麼干擾設備那就是防止說有任何的情況發生的時候第一時間總統可以獲得最好的醫療救護"},{"start":11273.792,"end":11290.865,"text":"所以我現在拉回來還是一樣針對這個事件有沒有考慮未來來做一些調整或是說更精進的方法請說明好謝謝委員的關心那剛剛有稍微跟委員說明一下不好意思有點插話那主要的原因是要跟委員說明的是把安全做好最重要"},{"start":11291.325,"end":11317.311,"text":"那主要的原因是我們特勤這邊他有其他的通訊裝備以避免大家公用的這些通訊的頻段出現一些被干擾的狀況這大概是第一部分的說明那第二部分的說明是剛剛牛許廷委員也有提到了假如遇到中共的這種無人機不管是風群或軍規無人機的攻擊有沒有一些因應的做法那這部分假如是涉及到比較國家緊急情況的時候會讓中共的無人機能夠領導"},{"start":11318.391,"end":11347.991,"text":"接近到我們的相關空域的話那我們就會啟動我們相關軍事的我修正一下我討論的跟這個比較不一樣我現在講的是說總統即便是在一個正常的活動出席在我們國內你剛剛講到中共可能是直接就是大規模但已經變成是軍力半台的層級但是本席現在講的比較是譬如說像那一天亞太球場開幕他可能會有無人機那如果說現場有民用無人機或說這個廠商業者的無人機但是他"},{"start":11348.411,"end":11361.573,"text":"突然間我們不知道是什麼狀況突然間他往總統靠近那是不是也應該要有必要的防護措施以及必要的譬如說是電子槍干擾器來去做相關的防範我覺得這一些部分是"},{"start":11362.759,"end":11389.622,"text":"因為這涉及可能是相關國安機密但本席要再一次提醒是我們從林俊憲委員的質詢裡面看到一個大白話是如果說連總統旁邊的助理都可以三四個小時沒有收訊即便你剛剛講的是說有特殊的管道但特殊管道跟特殊管道之間可能極少數的連結但如果今天總統是發生一個什麼樣的事情而需要趕快讓第一時間社會大眾知道"},{"start":11390.558,"end":11401.461,"text":"安全無虞或說要有什麼樣的聯繫方式的話我覺得相關的5G訊號還是必要的所以這也是為什麼我在提醒說連民間都已經有這樣的一個使用"},{"start":11402.657,"end":11423.969,"text":"不增加困擾的情況下但是能夠多增加安全的保障即便啊今天發生什麼事情管局局長要跟總統直接做報告你會採取的方式我相信最快的方式還是用手機或是說用相關的一個系統來去跟總統旁邊的秘書來做聯繫這最快嘛所以一定要確保這樣的一個通訊是暢通無語的是吧"},{"start":11424.549,"end":11444.584,"text":"對 這通訊韌性我們一直都有在注意那剛剛委員提到的通訊韌性問題以外還有涉及到無人機的突襲在成品的時候那這部分我們大概在總統地點的場所多部署一些反無人機的一些干擾的設備那也有一些比較高位置的一些部署來做相關的預警所以這是兩件"},{"start":11447.014,"end":11462.512,"text":"本席提出來的作為兩個議題不要再讓我們看到說連執政黨委員都講一個大白話說三四個小時失去通訊我覺得這是一個非常令人捏麻冷汗的事情好不好好感謝謝謝好我們謝謝黃委員我們接下來邀請鍾嘉斌委員謝謝"},{"start":11471.346,"end":11481.273,"text":"主席 在場委員 先進電視的政務機關首長 官員會長 工作夥伴 媒體記者女士先生有請國安局蔡局長跟法務部調查局的陳局長我們請蔡局長跟陳局長"},{"start":11484.229,"end":11503.415,"text":"好 謝謝主席 周委員長兩位局長好 共諜滲透管道樣太多樣防滲透 國安檢調需跟上最近網路上流行一個梗圖跟笑話他說如果共諜潛伏在民進黨立委身邊 那叫共諜如果潛伏在在野黨 那叫做不分區跟黨主席你覺得好笑嗎"},{"start":11504.375,"end":11526.305,"text":"我覺得一點都不好笑不過呢我覺得這可能反映出社會對於國會是否可能遭到滲透的一個關心我們往下看其實不是只有台灣各國的國會政府單位都會有他們間諜或者說共諜滲透的情況我們看到美國的聯儲它的共諜曝光了英國國會也有共諜那麼官員證實說這是中國是敵人"},{"start":11529.466,"end":11558.796,"text":"德國逮捕一名歐盟議會的工作人員指控他為中國從事間諜活動請問國安局對於這些中國或者說境外敵對勢力在其他國家國會的滲透狀況有所掌握嗎有 這也是我們跟國際友盟在交換情資跟經驗的一個重要的議題啦因為德國現在遭受到中國這種勤工的一個滲透越來越嚴厲那所以大家都有交換一些經驗好 但是因為我本身不是這個專業我們只會從電影跟小說上去瞭解往下看"},{"start":11559.236,"end":11588.391,"text":"譬如說供鐵的滲透樣帶有什麼用人員滲透譬如說我們的工作同仁周邊是不是有人去接近他請他帶走機密或者說利用這些工作人員的不正當關係去威脅他或者說利用政治獻金去提供要求對價來影響決策請問關於這些的間諜行動國安局有去做一些初步的了解跟掌握嗎或者進一步我要請教一下陳局長那如何防堵來先請教蔡局長"},{"start":11589.031,"end":11612.678,"text":"我想基本上委員現在看到所有的共諜案都是我們的系統啟動正辦的才移送到司法機關來進行查處這是大概第一點說明那第二點說明是針對共諜的滲透的手法它非常的多元這也是為什麼我們在去年有公布共諜滲透的一個手法樣態的專題報告主要的目的就是希望國人能夠更了解到中共滲透的手法畢竟它滲透的對象就是我們的公開的社會"},{"start":11612.978,"end":11641.156,"text":"那因為國安局的執事是情報跟反滲透可是陳局長不一樣調查局要做偵辦對不對陳局長請過來來陳局長那你們也會去針對國安局所掌握的這些樣態也開始去進行反滲透的一些部限去調查去了解嗎我們會針對所有各方來的情資然後做那個跟案件有關的這些調查那主要就是focus在我們法辦的各個構成要件的面向"},{"start":11643.777,"end":11663.781,"text":"譬如說你們調查局聯絡國會聯絡人偶爾來中嘉賓的國會辦公室看一看有沒有共諜潛伏是這樣嗎?不會這樣子當然也不會你們的調查的時候一定不是這麼的粗糙但是我的意思是說雖然我們蔡局長說到過去有公布這些樣態但是國會我們自己本身我們也提高警覺但是我們不曉得該如何做"},{"start":11664.341,"end":11690.702,"text":"但是我們又不能請我們的監督對象比如我們監督行政院我不能請證書來給我指導啊我不能請調查局來給我指導啊為什麼因為你是我們的行政上的督導對象是那我們國會要如何防範自己被滲透呢這個我是一個難題蔡局長是不是可以請你們回去去反映一下有沒有可能研究出一套方法提供適當的方式提供過來其實我個人認為啊公民團體第三方"},{"start":11694.105,"end":11712.084,"text":"是比較公正客觀他可以來跟國會跟國會的立法委員我們來共同合作辦論壇辦研討會研擬這些方向必要的時候我們透過自己的立法法制化這樣子來落實我們國會自己我們的一個防滲透的一個處置您覺得怎麼樣"},{"start":11712.941,"end":11726.94,"text":"我想這一部分剛剛委員也有一些意見我們有做一些想法的交流我想第一部分還是立法院這邊要有一些法治的規範那相關的行政單位比如說行政部門現在是由調查局來進行人員的安查"},{"start":11727.841,"end":11748.878,"text":"行政部門可是立法院 假如你沒有這個規範的話行政部門很難進來做相關的安查這在第一點那第二點是相關的保防的宣教我們也很樂意來提供必要的一個協助那還是要有一些立法院的規範才有辦法讓所有的職工或助理來參加這樣的一個宣教而不是不定期的這種宣教因為人員是不斷的在流動的"},{"start":11749.338,"end":11769.473,"text":"第三個是假如委員辦公室有特別關注這樣的問題的話那我們也曾經提供一些保防或反情報要注意的事項給其他的委員參考包括陳冠廷委員、陳俊宇委員跟林俊憲委員所以委員辦公室有需要的話我們可以在沒有法治規範之前先提供一些資訊給委員來討論好 謝謝最後的兩個結論很快的結束就是就目前共諜深特政府機關跟國會的樣態"},{"start":11770.774,"end":11783.223,"text":"我希望你們有準備好的資料可以提供給我們參考另外國安局的掌握情況如何系統上如何因應的對策您剛也提到了國會要加強自我的強化立法希望這樣的對策也可以提供給我們那在這裡有公開的請求我們辦公室非常關注這個重要性絕對不亞於職場霸凌跟職場性騷擾"},{"start":11790.788,"end":11815.925,"text":"一定要相同的程度來嚴正以待,你同意嗎?對,我認為要透過法治化的方式來處理這個問題因為中共的滲透是全面性的跟計畫性的好,謝謝,謝謝兩位局長,謝謝好,謝謝中委員,謝謝主席謝謝中委員,那其實我們有提出回應中委員他其實我們有提出國家經濟保護法第14條修正草案就是有包含中委員的關心的這個議題可是之前調查局跟我們說你們會用行政命令擴大"},{"start":11817.066,"end":11842.786,"text":"這個核查人員 所以這個東西 這個草案還是一直被擱置著所以這個部分我還是先回應一下接下來我們邀請李坤澄委員好 謝謝主席我們請蔡局長我們請蔡局長"},{"start":11848.962,"end":11864.692,"text":"好 謝主席 李文豪局長好 辛苦了那跟這個局長來談一下這個徐春毅這個案子因為徐春毅現在已經被起訴了那從這個起訴書的這個內容裡面這個或是在新聞媒體上面有披露的部分那我們可以發現說這個"},{"start":11866.073,"end":11885.726,"text":"徐春英他這個案子是一個複合性的滲透到台灣來他先用結婚的模式以中配的身份取得中華民國的身份證取得身份證之後他掩護中共的官員假借各種名義協助這些官員規避審查進入台灣還有地下會隊還有基層社會的滲透拉攏在台灣的"},{"start":11893.592,"end":11913.895,"text":"部分的中配然後甚至這個參與的這個政治的活動那我想請問一下這一個局長徐春英的這個案例是不是表示說這個中共因為過去你們這個國安局有一些滲透到台灣的一些一些圖記跟模式那是不是這個案子就是說他已經滲透到我們政黨的內部"},{"start":11915.55,"end":11934.915,"text":"對 因為我們對於中共對台的一個滲透的手法樣態那有不定期的對外發布一些報告來讓社會大眾更了解相關的狀況能夠提高警覺那就個案的部分就國安案件大概都是我們的國安情報系統來發動立案的那有市政之後再交給"},{"start":11936.615,"end":11951.161,"text":"檢方來進行偵辦的那委員剛剛所提到這個例子也不例外所以那整個過程當中都有在注意一些發展的網絡以及中共所定特定的對象還有他的一些金流人流發展的一個脈絡這部分我們都有掌握"},{"start":11952.821,"end":11980.231,"text":"凸顯了幾個問題啦那第一個就是說我就說這個中共的這個統戰的模式是伸到這個政黨裡面來那現在就是說看政黨怎麼去做處理嘛因為不是只有民眾黨他可能也到國民黨也有可能到民進黨那就看各個政黨怎麼去配合這個目前的這個不論是反滲透法或是國安法來做處理嘛那就這部分來講徐崔寧的這部分來講那您認為目前這個中共他的這一個統戰的這一個"},{"start":11983.521,"end":11988.47,"text":"這隻手伸到政黨裡面的情況嚴不嚴重有這樣的狀況那嚴重嗎"},{"start":11992.901,"end":12016.855,"text":"因為它有涉及到一些不同的案子啦那這個案子因為最近才被起訴引起社會的關注那確實中共接觸的對象有特定的族群那也有特定的政治團體那他們都會部署相關的人脈的網絡來進行接觸那也透過一些兩岸的交流那加強一些相關的一個互動那發揮一些影響力"},{"start":12017.876,"end":12044.604,"text":"那另外一個就是說他所接觸的對象比如說像孫憲或是楊文濤那他們也常常來就利用各種名義來到台灣來那這個是我們國安單位是在起訴這個就是說大概是哪個時候知道說他們其實已經在台灣趴趴走一段時間因為這個時間很長那我們處理這些案件的時間也非常的長我也可以跟委員這樣講"},{"start":12045.86,"end":12068.389,"text":"所以其實也都有做掌握就對了就我們來看啦 因為我們不知道說你們知道的時間有多長但是我們認為說 那這麼長的時間裡面那到底我們國內的 不論是國安局 調查局或是我們刑事局這方面 警政署這方面知不知道這些人的行蹤 或是說這些人來台灣做什麼"},{"start":12070.024,"end":12097.752,"text":"檢方能夠有這些起訴的相關的事證這是經過長期的部署才有這樣的結果我只能跟委員說明的是時間非常的長經過好幾年經過好幾年而且相關的人員我剛在跟林楚英委員做說明那他們在進來之後我們都有我們相關的部署那才能夠辦法有一個比較完整的資訊那讓違法的要件比較能夠成立那送到檢方正辦的時候才比較能夠彙整相關的一個事證來進行必要的法條的"},{"start":12098.232,"end":12107.766,"text":"因為這對於台灣人來講就覺得說那我們希望說政府是知道這些事情而且也是採取行動的那如果按照局長這樣講其實就是說整個"},{"start":12109.444,"end":12131.334,"text":"這個部件的這個時間當然當然因為這是我們在我們的義務報告特別有提到的我們國安情報單位檢調單位軍中保防單位我們是有一個完整的系統在處理這些共諜案的就是說當然不至於是說我們故意要這個放長線釣大魚但是我們的確有知道說他們在台灣的行動包含說這個見了誰做什麼樣的事情"},{"start":12132.294,"end":12156.326,"text":"這些市政不會是來一次入境之後就收集到了委員只要仔細看起訴書那是非常漫長的時間今年累月的累積的一些市政的狀況好那最後一個問題就是年底的這個大選這個三合一的選舉那這個在國安九合一對啊有的我們是三合一有的是九合一那國安局這邊"},{"start":12157.353,"end":12176.468,"text":"對於這個中共他們要利用這一個這次年底的選舉他們有可能會介入一定會介入不是有可能然後介入的模式也很多那有大概做了哪一些可以公開講的東西嗎這部分我們因為在今年的二月我們區裡面就成立一個針對今年九合一選舉的一個查查的專案機制"},{"start":12177.529,"end":12200.478,"text":"那啟動這樣的機制的話我們會針對國安情報機關來做必要的任務分工那今天國安情報機關的首長也幾乎都在現場那幾個重點的工作第一個是包括有沒有一些為異常的金流或是進行一些線上博弈或一些地下賭盤的操作來借選那另外也包括到有沒有一些背景比較異常的人士入境到台灣來"},{"start":12201.078,"end":12216.717,"text":"那這部分跟移民署也都有相關的專欄來做聯審的機制那進來之後 假如有違常的狀況的話那我們也會有的 假如是違法的話就會立刻驅逐出境那有的是會列入為下次要來台灣的一個禁止的名單"},{"start":12217.578,"end":12238.222,"text":"那另外可能在借權過程當中我們也特別著重到認知作戰爭議訊息的操作那這部分我們最近才啟動一個機制一個部分是透過平台業者去下架他有問題的貼文那另外一部分我們機制剛成立是我們有去封鎖境外的IP他只要傳散爭議訊息的話我們直接把境外IP封鎖掉"},{"start":12238.522,"end":12259.071,"text":"那這是最近才成立的機制那法規部分經過幾個月的討論也都非常地完備那再來就是要注意到有沒有一些包括槍械或是黑道的活動那會去干擾到選舉的一個正常的進行那這部分是跟檢政署張署長這邊我們都有討論都有一個專案在處理所以就"},{"start":12264.235,"end":12280.98,"text":"所以我們必須要透過相關的一個專案動員我們的整個國安情治機關可能我們這一場的國安情治機關人員加起來應該不下十幾萬人我們會動用我們的網絡來防止中共對台的竊選活動一定會的"},{"start":12301.928,"end":12325.285,"text":"接下來我們請鄭振淺委員鄭振淺委員不在接下來我們請蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在接下來我們請王建斌委員謝謝好 謝謝主席我想有請那個管局程局長好 請局長"},{"start":12330.578,"end":12336.561,"text":"今天是國安局的業務報告我們都曉得國安局負責的就是台灣跟國際間的情報的安全工作國安局也針對近期我們美伊戰爭的影響以及中國大陸對我國近期的威脅進行報告"},{"start":12351.347,"end":12365.639,"text":"尤其近期這個美伊戰爭導致全球能源石化供應鏈大亂我們台灣不僅石油漲價石化產業也因為雲霧物料的供應減少被迫停工導致全台缺塑膠袋"},{"start":12367.32,"end":12388.749,"text":"的這個亂象那影響我們台灣的民生經濟那今天早上八點是川普總統要求伊朗要重啟這個荷姆斯海峽最後的期限那索性每兩國同意停戰兩週然後約定在四月十號再重啟這個展開談判那未來兩國是否會停戰這個仍在觀察那如果戰爭持續"},{"start":12390.526,"end":12408.613,"text":"那對台灣能源跟我們的石化工業會影響到越來越嚴重那國安局既然都掌握到國際的這個情勢的變化那本席想要就教我們局長就是說那國安局內部研判我們每一戰爭是否會停止那如果戰爭仍然持續那國安局內部評估對我們國內經濟的影響會有多大"},{"start":12413.831,"end":12427.819,"text":"因為管局必須掌握國際情勢因為分析未來這個局勢的發展提供給我們行政院還有相關的部會他可以提早做應變像這次的塑膠袋之亂看起來就是經濟部沒有掌握好然後導致這沒辦法及時的啟動這個應變的機制"},{"start":12430.14,"end":12446.613,"text":"整個國際的變化又很快速那這部分我想請國安局務必要做好這個勤收的工作報告那適時的提供給行政院跟相關部會讓他們可以在第一時間盡快的做出這樣的措施好這部分謝委員的提醒跟關切"},{"start":12447.153,"end":12465.285,"text":"那因為中東的情勢在今年2月28號美國發動對伊朗的攻擊行動之後那它牽動到的就不只是中東地緣政治的變化也影響到荷姆治海峽航運的安全而影響到全球的一個能源供應的穩定性那造成的衝擊是全面性的全球性的"},{"start":12465.865,"end":12482.352,"text":"那在相關的情資收集的部分我們跟國際友盟都有在不斷的交換情資那也透過我們的國安首長會議有跟行政院的系統做相關的一個分析跟報告那我所知道的是行政院他有物價穩定跟油價穩定的小組"},{"start":12483.593,"end":12501.025,"text":"那應該定期的會對外做說明跟發佈那至於怎麼處理我想委員應該可以理解我們必須要尊重行政院的處理因為我們是比較像是上游的情資分析的一個系統那把這個情勢讓行政院部分可以來做必要的應酬我們尊重行政院的處理"},{"start":12501.625,"end":12517.573,"text":"那後續可能還是要注意的是因為這次的這種能源的供應的穩定性的一個衝擊委員剛剛的問題是在那個時間點那什麼時候停戰那停戰之後會不會有影響那我必須要跟委員報告的是即使停戰"},{"start":12518.473,"end":12544.284,"text":"可能那個衝擊的效應還是會持續的存在因為畢竟中東當地有一些煉油的設施確實是在戰事當中有受到迫擊那他必須要做一些復原的所以他有涉及到國際上各個國家都不斷的在調度相關的油跟氣的一個供應那所以這部分我們有把相關的資訊也希望行政院在看相關問題的時候可以用更不只是短期中長期的一個規劃"},{"start":12546.205,"end":12561.164,"text":"要有一些處置因為那個石油是民生之母所有東西都用得到包括還有醫藥也相關都會有所以這個部分提早讓他們做準備包括我們要怎麼應對接下來的情況我想這個是局裡面能夠第一時間掌握的情勢給他們做分析"},{"start":12562.205,"end":12579.904,"text":"那現在我想要在國安局在今天的報告裡面也在提到說今年的工作的重點就是防範中共透過各種管道的方式滲透乃至於介入今年年底的地方選舉就是我們所謂的中共借選那這個問題本來也要講一組就是說如果中共對台灣今年的選舉"},{"start":12581.145,"end":12598.962,"text":"進行借權那確實是對我國這三十幾年來辛苦建立這個民主制度是一個很大的威脅但是因為這個議題是高度的敏感然後嚴重影響那我想要問一個關鍵問題就是說國安體系在整個應對中共借權的同時它有沒有可能會反過來影響到我們國內"},{"start":12600.283,"end":12620.555,"text":"內部的選舉的風向那因為從國安局的報告裡面大概應該也剛剛局長也說嘛你也掌握大量的借權的情質包括說正義的訊息啦異常的帳號啦然後身為的內容還有就是金流以及地下賭盤種種我想請教這些資訊對外揭露的標準是什麼是全面的或者即時公開或者是選擇性的釋出"},{"start":12622.816,"end":12650.575,"text":"那如果是選擇性的話 那是由誰決定什麼時候講 講多少 要講給誰聽因為這些訊息啊 一旦在選舉期間釋出啊它本身就足以影響到整個社會氛圍跟選民的判斷甚至會影響整個大選的結果那我舉個例 我像我們前立委孔文吉他當年到大陸參加這個少數人民主的活動那後來被指控他違反了這個反滲透法而且他在競選期間被偵辦"},{"start":12653.216,"end":12679.136,"text":"結果後來結論是花蓮地檢署偵檢是全部不起訴處分但是他有沒有影響到選舉結果確實有影響嘛那另外還有前陣子才發生的我們這一屆發生的就是民進黨的前立委因為有疑似烏鴉的影片流出那為什麼叫疑似就是因為影片送到國安局他都沒有辦法去證明說這個影片到底是真的還是偽造的所以外界會質疑說這個是不是有不同的標準或在護航的過程"},{"start":12680.373,"end":12702.584,"text":"那我們先前吳宗憲委員其實在質詢的時候也提到說法務部的資料裡面統計我們2024年大選期間違反反滲透法還有選罷法的案件不起訴的人數高達416人就是將近八成八成的案件都不起訴或無罪喔我舉這些例子就是要說明說一件事情足以影響一場選舉"},{"start":12706.086,"end":12731.923,"text":"在選舉期間中共借選四個字它本身就具有高度的政治效果如果沒有嚴格的標準跟監督的話會不會把一般政治攻防解讀成借選的行為或者把特定的言論直接貼上認知作戰的標籤這樣的結果不只是防止外力它可能會壓手到我們國內的言論自由的空間"},{"start":12732.944,"end":12755.822,"text":"那這本席要強調就是說防範中共借權非常重要但是同樣重要的是我們不能在防範外部干預的同時也讓我們這個制度失去的中立性因為國安體系的權力越大他就更需要越透明或是更節制來監督他不然這個社會一旦產生這種反借權是不是也讓也在影響選舉的結果"},{"start":12757.923,"end":12786.442,"text":"會讓人有這個懷疑那傷害的不是選舉的結果而已它傷害的是整個民主制度的這個信任的基礎那所以我在這邊也要請管局也要大聲的人清楚地跟大眾說我們在做這件事是確保我們這些作為是確保防衛民主而不是在介入民主部長我想第一點跟委員說明的是我想委員應該可以同意那民主選舉大概就是我們中華民國最重要的一個憲政制度跟主要的"},{"start":12787.723,"end":12806.309,"text":"政治價值所以確保我們的民主選舉的過程跟結果不受外力的干擾那我覺得最核心的一個任務也是我們國安局的使命那第二個部分是在公布中共屆選的樣態委員可能也會注意到不管是在今天的夜報還是我們以前都有年度的轉報我們大概所呈現的都是基本的"},{"start":12807.95,"end":12828.3,"text":"樣態跟那些手法那在今天的詢答或是在各個場合當中我都不會去涉入到個案的部分這大概是我們在處理上的一個基本的原則講的是一種總體性的樣態跟手法不談個案好那第三個部分是在處理包括委員提到的爭議訊息或認知作戰的部分國安局出面的話一定是國安層級"},{"start":12829.341,"end":12853.491,"text":"我們不會去涉入到選區委員之間可能有這種選舉的攻防而去變成是我們自己在借選這個不會所以這道國安層級的是那個爭議的訊息它有可能會影響到國家安全或社會秩序的穩定那甚至是說在那個爭訊的過程當中有去傷害到我們跟友盟重要的合作關係或是去污蔑我們的國家元首"},{"start":12853.931,"end":12881.885,"text":"那我們有定位幾個主要的一種徵訊的類型有達到國安層級我們的系統才會啟動那所以我想跟委員說明的是國安層級的爭議訊息跟一般選舉期間可能選區的這一些選舉策略的攻防那還是有一個區隔在那這部分前委員可以放心我們會拿捏那個尺度好 謝謝局長非常清楚的說明那以上謝謝謝謝黃委員謝謝主席謝謝接下來我們請邱志維委員"},{"start":12898.866,"end":12901.665,"text":"謝謝主席是不是請國安局蔡局長我們請蔡局長"},{"start":12907.553,"end":12929.945,"text":"謝謝主席 邱委員好邱委員好 您今天的報告我想跟您請教幾個問題有關於這個美國在印太的這些戰略要建構拒止防禦的體系以美日鴻蒙為核心搭配美日加N大概很具體就是韓國 菲律賓 澳洲"},{"start":12932.17,"end":12956.344,"text":"澳飛這個建立起一個應待安全合作機制在四個面向指揮整合 臨演聯訓導練惡控跟後勤支援台灣有沒有可能成為N的部分但是不是四項都參與啦我意思說是不是指揮整合也可以跟美日來提出這個要求"},{"start":12957.964,"end":12973.48,"text":"後勤支援我們也可以扮演一定的角色你如果說要連演連訓可能目前階段有一定的難度可不可以從這兩個部分去切入國家有沒有這個戰略怎麼樣去融入美日加恩的這個安保體系"},{"start":12974.535,"end":13002.138,"text":"對 現在確實美國印太戰略很強調是島鏈的阻絕防禦的網絡雙邊的網絡 多邊的網絡那在過程當中委員有提到台灣怎麼樣切入這個網絡來串聯起我們跟友盟一個更堅強的一個防線那不過委員剛剛所提到的不管是連眼聯訊或後勤補給因為它比較涉及到的是國防部的業務啦我比較不適合在國防部 國防部很多同仁也在嘛對啊 比較不適合講給國防部聽啦現在是國防部來 我還在問"},{"start":13003.379,"end":13021.152,"text":"特別是針對指揮整合後勤資源這是比較相對不是這個實兵演練的這些工作可以循序漸進的來推動所以我覺得國安局應該統合國防部跟外交部"},{"start":13022.452,"end":13049.133,"text":"來推動這個台灣加入美日加N的這個體系裡面你一定要有做法你要有策略你才能想辦法去執行如果連想都沒有這永遠不可能達成另外我最近看到日本防衛大臣跟外務大臣跟法國的防衛大臣就是他們的國防部長跟外交部長2 plus 22 plus 2"},{"start":13052.298,"end":13069.93,"text":"台灣有沒有可能跟其他國家有官方政府間的2 plus 2針對國防外交的議題當然國會有 政黨也有國會跟日本有2 plus 2主要是針對安全跟外交政黨也有"},{"start":13071.434,"end":13086.171,"text":"國家間 台灣國家間能不能推動跟友好國家的2 plus 2有沒有可能我想任何可能性都存在那有一些這種雙多邊的合作也都有在推展那只是可能沒有辦法你確定有在推展"},{"start":13086.871,"end":13102.221,"text":"有在接觸也都有在推展我們剛剛也跟委員在EU報告有提到包括供應鏈的韌性防衛裝備的零組件的生產美國也邀請我們用顧問的身份來參加韌性夥伴會議不太可能一次到部長層級你可以到次長層級"},{"start":13104.164,"end":13117.839,"text":"循序漸進這個一定要做不是可能性而已可能性你要把它變成一個事實對台灣的安全至關重要另外這個日本南韓跟澳大利亞這個軍工產業的飛鴻供應鏈這個台灣有沒有這個積極去爭取加入"},{"start":13122.843,"end":13138.3,"text":"我剛有提到美國是用顧問的身份邀請我們參加那個任性夥伴關係的計畫裡面去那這部分就是有點在針對那個軍需產品的飛鴻這個不是美國是日本南韓跟澳洲我可以再翻到那個"},{"start":13140.111,"end":13143.294,"text":"另外你的報告裡面提到中國啊中國面臨國內外治理風險風險很多種超高風險高風險中路風險跟低風險"},{"start":13163.859,"end":13169.853,"text":"這個國安局的研判中共目前面臨的國內國外的治理風險是屬於哪一個層級的風險"},{"start":13172.098,"end":13193.336,"text":"有四個選項 超高風險 高風險 中風險 低風險委員有自己的四個風險的指標 不同風險指標的定義是什麼但是可以跟委員講的是風險在升高當中是由哪邊升到哪裡 從低升到中 還是中升到高持續升高當中"},{"start":13195.194,"end":13220.977,"text":"沒有天花板因為我不知道委員每個層級的定義是什麼我就沒有辦法針對目前的現況來符合到委員的定義三年之內他會垮台是高風險一年之內會垮台超高風險十年之後會垮台可能是主中風險二十年之後才會垮台是低風險治理住不好一定會垮台嘛對不對我剛剛講到我的標準"},{"start":13224.694,"end":13238.323,"text":"自理的風險在升高過程當中我們要注意但是中共也有它的一些因應內部問題的一些方式所以它是一個動態的過程他們因應的方式您知道嗎 您有掌握嗎"},{"start":13238.983,"end":13263.684,"text":"他們現在加強內部的內控內管那我再繼續請教你國外的治理風險能不能具體說明一下他們國外的治理風險在哪裡外部的治理風險我們在夜報當中特別提到的是美中的關係因為美國對中國不管是在地緣政治、科技管制、經貿還有關稅政策上都給中國蠻大的壓力所以這造成中國在有內部問題的同時還要因應到外部的一個美國的一個施壓"},{"start":13264.724,"end":13285.556,"text":"美國友盟也在進行這種非紅供應鏈的重組這也讓中國的產業在發展過程當中被排擠在非紅供應鏈之外內外交迫對 所以它外部確實有這些的問題內外交迫另外 FOIP 自由開放的印太這個當然是安倍首相所提出來的已經十年前提出來的每日都有相關的 FOIP 的戰略"},{"start":13286.197,"end":13297.131,"text":"我們有沒有FOIP這相關的戰略規劃對 那基本上是符合我們的國家安全利益也就是說維持一個印太自由開放我知道符合我們的利益 但是要有能夠有效參與"},{"start":13300.372,"end":13319.568,"text":"這對我們也很重要跟我們說明一下在印太的自由開放裡面台海的和平穩定應該是最重要的一個那你要怎麼去做這不是一個口號沒有口號這也是我們剛剛一直在呼籲可能在一些國防的投資上面也要注意到周邊國家在這方面都有相當緊急的建設我們目標是要POIP"},{"start":13320.248,"end":13329.041,"text":"要建立一個自由開放的印太要怎麼去建立要怎麼去達成一定要有相關的做法而且要去執行最後一個問題請問這個調查局陳局長年底"},{"start":13336.98,"end":13351.51,"text":"九合一的選舉年底九合一選舉非常複雜基層里長到縣市所長議員全部參選九合一是這個會影響選舉公平大概中國的屆選中國的屆選剛剛局長已經答了很多了"},{"start":13353.898,"end":13379.747,"text":"這個會選的部分就需要調查局所以住區 住縣 住處的所有同仁調查局的同仁都非常優秀是 謝謝他們在辦理各項業務都也很嚴謹所以查會是非常重要所以你要局長重視你這個局裡面的同仁就會重視每一個處 比方說高雄處 台南處什麼你只要下達這個嚴打 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邱委員好邱委員您今天的報告 我想跟您請教 討論幾個問題有關於這個美國在印太的這些戰略要建構拒止防禦的體系以美日同盟為核心搭配美日加N大概很具體就是韓國 菲律賓 澳洲"},{"start":34.197,"end":58.392,"text":"澳飛這個建立起一個應待安全合作機制在四個面向指揮整合 臨演聯訓導練惡控跟後勤支援台灣有沒有可能成為N的部分但是不是四項都參與啦我意思說是不是指揮整合也可以跟美日來提出這個要求"},{"start":60.014,"end":75.551,"text":"後勤資源我們也可以扮演一定的角色你如果說要連演連訓可能目前階段有一定的難度可不可以從這兩個部分去切入國家有沒有這個戰略怎麼樣去融入美日加恩的這個安保體系"},{"start":76.566,"end":104.155,"text":"對 現在確實美國印太戰略很強調是島鏈的阻絕防禦的網絡雙邊的網絡 多邊的網絡那在過程當中委員有提到台灣怎麼樣切入這個網絡來串聯起我們跟友盟一個更堅強的一個防線那不過委員剛剛所提到的不管是連眼聯訊或後勤補給因為它比較涉及到的是國防部的業務啦我比較不適合在國防部 國防部很多同仁也在嘛對啊 比較不適合講給國防部聽啦現在是國防部來 我還在問"},{"start":105.416,"end":123.218,"text":"特別是針對指揮整合後勤資源這是比較相對不是這個實兵演練的這些工作可以循序漸進的來推進所以我覺得國安局應該統合國防部跟外交部"},{"start":124.479,"end":151.321,"text":"來推動這個台灣加入美日加N的這個體系裡面你一定要有做法你要有策略你才能想辦法去執行如果連想都沒有這永遠不可能達成另外我最近看到日本防衛大臣跟外務大臣跟法國的防衛大臣就是他們的國防部長跟外交部長2 plus 22 plus 2"},{"start":154.346,"end":171.975,"text":"台灣有沒有可能有跟其他國家有官方政府間的2 plus 2針對國防外交的議題當然國會有 政黨也有國會跟日本有2 plus 2主要是針對這個安全跟這個外交政黨也有"},{"start":173.485,"end":188.219,"text":"國家間 台灣國家間能不能推動跟友好國家的2 plus 2有沒有可能我想任何可能性都存在有一些這種雙多邊的合作也都有在推展只是可能沒有辦法你確定有在推展"},{"start":188.899,"end":204.27,"text":"有在接觸也都有在推展我們剛剛也跟委員在EU報告有提到包括供應鏈的韌性防衛裝備的零組件的生產美國也邀請我們用顧問的身份來參加韌性夥伴會議不太可能一次到部長層級你可以到次長層級"},{"start":206.192,"end":223.01,"text":"循序漸進這個一定要做不是可能性而已可能性你要把它變成一個事實對台灣的安全至關重要另外這個日本南韓跟澳大利亞這個軍工產業的非紅供應鏈這個台灣有沒有這個積極去爭取加入"},{"start":224.875,"end":240.357,"text":"我剛有提到美國是用顧問的身份邀請我們參加那個任性夥伴關係的計劃裡面去那這部分就是有點在針對那個軍需產品的飛鴻供應鏈這個不是美國啊 是日本南韓跟澳洲我可以再翻到那個"},{"start":242.199,"end":261.839,"text":"你翻到哪裡?翻到第六項,第六項就講到全球對於供應安全的重視那一段你們有這個想法,而且有做法,而且是在做,這樣我就比較放心了另外你的報告裡面提到中國啊,中國面臨國內外治理風險風險很多種,超高風險、高風險、中路風險跟低風險"},{"start":265.91,"end":271.883,"text":"這個國安局的研判中共目前面臨的國內國外的治理風險是屬於哪一個層級的風險"},{"start":274.126,"end":295.378,"text":"總共有四個選項 超高風險 高風險 中風險 低風險委員有自己的四個風險的指標 不同風險指標的定義是什麼但是可以跟委員講的是風險在升高當中是由哪邊升到哪裡 從低升到中 還是中升到高持續升高當中"},{"start":297.225,"end":322.842,"text":"沒有天花板因為我不知道委員每個層級的定義是什麼我就沒有辦法針對目前的現況來符合到委員的定義三年之內他會垮台是高風險一年之內會垮台超高風險十年之後會垮台可能是主中風險二十年之後才會垮台是低風險治理住不好一定會垮台嘛對不對我剛剛講到我的標準"},{"start":326.743,"end":340.368,"text":"自理的風險在升高過程當中我們要注意但是中共也有它的一些因應內部問題的一些方式所以它是一個動態的過程他們因應的方式您知道嗎 您有掌握嗎"},{"start":340.828,"end":365.732,"text":"有啊,他們現在加強內部的內控內管,所以這部分...那我再繼續請教你,國外的治理風險能不能具體說明一下,他們國外的治理風險在哪裡?外部的治理風險我們在夜報當中特別提到的是美中的關係啦,那因為美國對中國不管是在地緣政治、科技管制、經貿還有關稅政策上都給中國蠻大的壓力,所以這造成中國在有內部問題的同時還要因應到外部的一個美國的一個施壓。"},{"start":366.072,"end":387.607,"text":"同時美國友盟也在進行這種非紅供應鏈的重組那這也讓中國的產業在發展過程當中被排擠在非紅供應鏈之外內外交迫對 所以它外部確實有這些的問題內外交迫另外 FOIP 自由開放的印太這個當然是安倍首相所提出來的 已經十年前提出來的每日都有相關的 FOIP 的戰略"},{"start":388.227,"end":399.159,"text":"我們有沒有POIP這相關的戰略規劃那基本上是符合我們的國家安全利益也就是說維持一個印太自由開放但要有能夠有效參與"},{"start":402.419,"end":421.618,"text":"這對我們也很重要跟我們說明一下在印太的自由開放裡面台海的和平穩定應該是最重要的一個那你要怎麼去做這不是一個口號沒有口號這也是我們剛剛一直在呼籲可能在一些國防的投資上面也要注意到周邊國家在這一方面都有相當緊急的建制我們目標是要POIP"},{"start":422.299,"end":430.751,"text":"要建立一個自由開放的印太要怎麼去建立要怎麼去達成一定要有相關的做法而且要去執行最後一個問題請問這個調查局陳局長年底"},{"start":439.008,"end":453.565,"text":"九合一的選舉年底九合一選舉非常複雜基層里長到縣市所長議員全部參選九合一是這個會影響選舉公平大概中國的屆選中國屆選剛剛局長已經答了很多了"},{"start":455.945,"end":481.674,"text":"這個會選的部分就需要調查局所以住區 住縣 住處的所有同仁調查局的同仁都非常優秀是 謝謝他們在辦理各項業務都很嚴謹所以查會是非常重要所以你要局長重視你這個局裡面的同仁就會重視每一個處 比方說高雄處 台南處什麼你只要下達這個嚴打 嚴查"},{"start":486.708,"end":502.813,"text":"這個會選他就不會那麼猖獗還是有會選會選會嚴重影響跟我們報告我已經在二月的時候召集所有的內外勤的主管已經下達了這個工作指令就已經開始在做這個規劃跟部署然後要有績效"},{"start":505.173,"end":528.002,"text":"這個要讓這個想要賄選的人不敢賄選之前的這些部署很重要是你不知道事後你全面展開的時候你的能力可能也不夠去去查事前的這些部署讓這些想要買票純粹運動的人不敢動這部分再拜託局長夾大力道好沒有問題謝謝委員支持"}]}},{"id":"168283","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168283","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/70d8fc05dcd8abb072ef284d606d787db9b76447cfe948db3efd812baa63ee58231dcb1897cc80d85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"12:06:50 - 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平心靜氣一下我想問一下現在這個中東戰事的關係讓大家開始擔憂我們國家能源的韌性什麼叫韌性 韌性應該就是說當國家面臨到特定的危機的時候應該有很強大的抵禦的能力這又有賴於超前部署跟及早的規劃但是現在台灣的能源韌性非常差你看中東一發生戰事"},{"start":53.737,"end":80.934,"text":"因為過去就是非常仰賴天然氣所以影響到天然氣的進口我們的政府大量去搶現貨然後增加了幾百億的錢去做這個事情然後讓大家很擔憂那更不用講其他的問題了我今天就Focus在能源因為我看到國科會也訂定了一個淨零科技的創新方案是2026年到2030年是四年編的五百億 沒錯好像之前才"},{"start":81.835,"end":109.723,"text":"那個主委也才宣布等一下我請主委來講一下你這個創新方案的內容但我想要先問一件事情因為我們國家其實很多單位都在做淨零碳盤的研究比如說中研院中研院它也有一個規劃它也是在說要針對比如說地熱、生殖能、海洋能高效太陽光電什麼去碳燃氫這些去做研究然後我們行政院"},{"start":110.823,"end":133.403,"text":"辦公室也有一個2050年的淨零碳排的目標我不知道國會主委你知道嗎行政院的目標我知道報告委員其實整個行政院整個國家我們的科技預算的編列是由國會來負責所以我們的這個淨零科技方案是涵蓋我們整個政府的不是只有國會但是目標不一樣就很怪我跟你講你聽我講"},{"start":135.324,"end":158.032,"text":"你現在行政院的網站都查得到你也可以去查你知不知道現在在我們行政院的網站上面2050淨零碳排的目標以能源這一塊你知道在2050年我們國家的能源超過一半六成以上是要什麼能源你知道嗎你知道在行政院上面的規劃你知道是什麼嗎是要綠能"},{"start":160.011,"end":183.553,"text":"對 60到70是再生能源對啊好 那你知道按照行政院的規劃60 70再生能源是以什麼為主嗎好啦 不為難你 我跟你講啦風力跟光電啦你覺得有可能嗎主委你覺得有可能嗎這個還要再努力啦這不可能的事嘛因為我們現在坦白說啦 我們現在的光電"},{"start":184.656,"end":212.612,"text":"我看得出來好像賴總統也不是很想推了啦因為他已經能放的地方都放了嘛水庫也放了高雄整個山頭砍掉也在放哪裡都在放光電板什麼漁電工生然後什麼農電工生所以他能夠發展已經很有限了好那我們講風力發電風力發電分兩種嘛陸域 海域跟陸基嘛海域的現在能放的我看也差不多了啦你再放就影響航道了啦陸域的話地方政府大概也都不會同意了啦"},{"start":213.172,"end":239.875,"text":"所以我覺得風力發電也都很有限結果你現在我們行政院的網站跟我們講說2050年淨零碳排60到70再生能源要以風力跟光電為主我這太脫離現實了吧那我現在跟主委講這件事情主要目的是說既然你剛剛也提到了嘛行政院整體來說只要是做能源方面的科研的計畫都是編在國科會"},{"start":241.018,"end":262.757,"text":"那你也要去跟不是編在國會是編在我們科技預算裡面但是是各部會在執行好啦我知道啦就是說跟你有關嘛那你是不是要去跟行政院講一下至少網站改一下或你訂一個新的戰略目標出來啊不然我覺得很好笑欸然後中研院院長喔上次他講啊他說去年我們大概台灣發電是2800億度"},{"start":265.458,"end":294.83,"text":"然後他的評估啦 2050年 你知道台灣大概用電量因為AI發展嘛 大家今天都在講AI 講那個半導體只要他的預估大概2050年大概需要多少電嘛5000億度 5000億度到6000億度換言之 2050年的發電量要去年的兩倍啦要兩倍 我真的很擔憂啦那個主委你覺得在這25年 今年2026啦在24年我們的發電量要到兩倍"},{"start":295.885,"end":313.112,"text":"有可能嗎?根據現在國科會你們的規劃是什麼?這個應該是整個經濟發展的需求估算出來的啦當然嘛,我們就是要以那個預估嘛不然大家在講什麼AI都沒有用嘛,因為你要有電啊"},{"start":314.238,"end":334.81,"text":"算力及電力嘛那大家都知道的事情我現在是問你說以國會你是做研究啊你一定要發展出新能源出來所以現在國會其實是我們在支持各種能源的開發的這個研究我們在支持我知道你會支持但你要有個方向嘛你去思考一下這24年就2026年到2050年20幾年間我們要怎麼樣讓我們的發電量變兩倍我問你"},{"start":342.939,"end":368.021,"text":"我們現在2026我們往前推二十幾年兩千年的時候我們那時候的發電跟現在發電有到兩倍嗎有到兩倍嗎二十幾年要增加兩倍要增加兩千多億度出來這個是很有挑戰當然啊那你覺得最有機會的是哪一項我看中研院他們是認為說是以地熱跟海洋能作為前瞻人員那國科會"},{"start":369.212,"end":378.98,"text":"你們主要是針對哪幾項比如說大家跟你申請錢嘛就像你剛剛講的大家跟你申請錢你針對哪幾項你覺得有機會發展你要特別重點補助去發展的是哪幾項"},{"start":380.031,"end":406.148,"text":"我們所有可能性都補助剛剛委員提到不管是地熱海洋能只要學生可以投入我們新的核能技術網民也投入所以各種可能性都有我覺得國科會也不能完全沒有戰略思考就是說只要你是發展跟能源有關的我就補助好像大家散彈打鳥你要先定出戰略能源發展方向出來我們所有不能所有啦你覺得最有機會是哪"},{"start":409.451,"end":430.237,"text":"舉前兩項每一個都有機會啦舉兩項啦兩項總是有嘛人家中研院都可以講出地熱跟海洋能的你國會主委你講不出來喔地熱跟海洋能是其中的兩個對對對那其他你覺得還有哪些是很值得發展我剛剛已經講了我們包含這個新的核能我們也投資啦那新的核能有沒有核廢料"},{"start":431.667,"end":448.402,"text":"核廢料現在要避免是很困難的但是大幅度的降低這是有可能的因為新河也是有核廢料你只要有核廢料民進黨就會問你說那核廢料放你煮回家嗎他接下來就會問這件事我們只是研究因為大幅度的降低你研究都不行"},{"start":448.942,"end":478.277,"text":"因為你只要提到像我們那時候在修核管法只是讓核電廠申請研議的時間放寬而已他就說核廢料要放我家了所以你去做研究他也說核廢料要放你家學術研究哪有核廢料學術研究只是在探討你不能做那件事啦你做那件事會被罵啦你要研究的話就是要研究出新核能沒有核廢料的不會被罵為什麼因為你不研究你也不知道它有沒有危險所以新核能是沒有核廢料很難沒有核廢料嘛很難沒有嘛"},{"start":479.481,"end":495.496,"text":"很難沒有嘛不是核廢料還有包含核廢料的活性它的半衰期它的輻射量你如果能夠降到這個核廢料的輻射量降到最低它的半衰期很短儲藏的時間可以縮短"},{"start":496.938,"end":518.54,"text":"確保安全 民眾可以接受的時候才會去進行嘛所以一定要做研究啦我是支持啦 我只是怕你被罵啦然後再來就是像國家原子能科技研究院他們的計畫是2035年要發第一度電SMR的 新核能的這個你們有補助10億元嘛 對吧我們有補助 對已經補助了嗎"},{"start":519.264,"end":544.264,"text":"所以這個就是現在正在審查所以這個東西就是你剛講的只要任何你是研究能源相關的新能源的你們都補助我們要投入你們都投入但我還是強烈建議主委你要有一個戰略的思考就是一個方向不要省在哪裡畢竟國家資源也是有限的而且時間也不多了謝謝委員委員心目中想的我們都有投入然後再來"},{"start":545.685,"end":570.604,"text":"問一下人才 因為我看主委你有接受媒體訪問你是希望新創矽谷的人才都可以回來台灣嘛投入我們的AI產業嘛是 我們希望能夠做那種創新應用的人才我是有看到說你的方法是你要編100億啦 投資基金啦去投資一些新創公司透過新創公司形成產業鏈然後讓他們在這邊有工作機會可以回來那我覺得"},{"start":571.525,"end":601.094,"text":"所以可能你可能要思考另外一個面向因為現在真正懂很多懂AI的其實是在國外的大型公司比如說像亞馬遜阿里巴巴這種那我們其實還蠻需要這種高階的AI人才可以回到台灣來加入台灣的AI產業那你現在用新創公司比如說你用100億投資那你投資一定是那種新創的就是說他也不知道能不能成功嘛你去支持嘛然後希望他們可以投入那以國外"},{"start":601.614,"end":628.691,"text":"已經在大公司很穩健工作的人對他誘因不大啦對他誘因不大所以你應該也要提一個方案出來就是說怎麼協助台灣的企業針對我剛剛講的那些就是已經在國外AI公司已經非常成熟的人要怎麼讓他回來我覺得要提出類似的方案出來我們的新創的方案其實包含這個就是吸引國外的人才回來那回來的"},{"start":630.812,"end":655.098,"text":"為什麼可以吸引他們就是因為新創是一個科技公司它有前景它有發展的這個機會你在一個大公司只是一個螺絲釘你就是拿薪水所以它有這樣的這個發展的機會但是對它來說有成本啊它等於是放棄一家大公司因為政府在支持政府在支持不是只有我覺得你可以試試看當然如果有機會有做得到當然很棒"},{"start":655.798,"end":678.273,"text":"可是很可能針對我剛剛講的那部分誘因是不大的所以可能還是要想別的方法出來我們會盡量提供還有其他的研發的補助還有我們要開拓我們自己的內需市場因為我們建的算力目的就是要應用如果沒有應用建的算力就沒有用了就浪費錢所以一定要發展各種各樣的應用這是創造未來新公司的一個機會讓年輕人"},{"start":681.516,"end":700.237,"text":"不必說一定要強迫自己進到既有的公司大公司當一個螺絲釘而已而是可以開創自己未來這種機會我們趕快放出來這個因為每個人都見仁見智有的人就喜歡去大公司所以我只是說提醒你啦透過新創公司要吸引人才我自己我覺得效果有限但也不想潑你冷水啊你可以試試看啦好 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油價有公司嘛有兩個公司那照公司來講應該不會虧錢啊"},{"start":232.279,"end":243.927,"text":"那個公司是現在來講吸收大部分所以現在來講他吸收的絕大部分一個公司制度如果有價你們有那個機制怎麼會處理到虧損目前從109年的累積虧損到現在絕對就是"},{"start":250.672,"end":278.467,"text":"有問題如果這個虧損是因為政策死難因為政策那你就明明白白跟我們講跟國人同胞講因為政策死難我中油啊吸收了油價就成本所以我的累積虧損現在就是藉由美國跟伊朗的戰爭我一次要政治我要彌補"},{"start":280.288,"end":297.373,"text":"填補我的虧損我的答案是這樣啊針織的部分是未來投資新的設備需要而定那吸收政策吸收的部分是我們希望用撥補的方式但是我們會僅限於這一次他針織1687億嘛那你撥補多少給他"},{"start":305.592,"end":320.704,"text":"波普現在行政院還在討論 還不曉得數字所以爭執歸爭執 爭執跟阿中有去投資阿拉斯加的遊艇軍有沒有關係沒有關係沒有 完全沒有關係 爭執跟這個沒有關係爭執跟我們戰爭 我們產生的累積虧損沒有關係主要來講的話還是為了將來接觸那就是用波普那就要創造另外一個台電了 對不對"},{"start":333.855,"end":338.319,"text":"台電為了一個電價動產那你去虧損我們撥補了3000億吧3000億我記得數字沒錯3000億那是增資啊那是增資那增資跟撥補撥補沒有那麼多"},{"start":351.789,"end":353.131,"text":"波普沒那麼多波普只有500億真資2500億您看到的這個3000億裡面2500億是真資500億是波普"},{"start":367.772,"end":388.398,"text":"所以我們在這邊有沒有了解為了物價的一個穩定中油就是犧牲台電因為你的LNG要跟中油買大家為了物價平衡大家都犧牲但是這個內部一定要讓全體的國人來了解中油的財務結構真的"},{"start":391.219,"end":407.902,"text":"極其可危台電的財務結構我們也要給它做防範所以在這樣的政策博譜之下還有政策的一個這個增資的一個情況之下我希望有一個更明確的說明給我們立法院也給我一個更明確的一個說明這樣好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168281","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168281","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/70d8fc05dcd8abb05719db7c946c5f57f747912251df08273efd812baa63ee58f8f891d2cf65ac865ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃健豪","委員發言時間":"12:03:36 - 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下一位請黃建豪召委好 謝謝主席 主席一樣我們請林部長請部長 謝謝"},{"start":15.669,"end":41.443,"text":"教委你好部長好辛苦了中午了繼續質詢部長我想一開始來討論一下其實大家注意到其實剛才談到這個數位任性的部分其實最近有個新聞前陣子有個新聞就是說這個兩岸有這個詐騙集團透過這個這個星鏈來做進行相關詐騙的工作那當然詐騙的部分這不是我們今天要討論的主題我要討論的主題是什麼討論星鏈這件事情"},{"start":42.483,"end":61.818,"text":"星鏈它在我們的就是這個Stalin它一樣在台灣的這個上空中這樣子有這樣相關的訊號能夠使用這樣子的訊號但是它沒有辦法落地嘛到目前為止沒有辦法落地所以我們就眼睜睜看著說這個樣子的一個客觀事實存在但是我們的法律或是我們的政府或是我們相關的這個技術面上沒有辦法直接的去"},{"start":62.999,"end":76.911,"text":"處理這件事情那我們看其他國家就是說其他國家包含說日本還有韓國他們過去當然有些限制當然說這個日本之前也是限制說有相關的法令不能直接來落地但日本之前也透過了這個他們的相關的集團"},{"start":78.532,"end":100.887,"text":"來授權Starlink能夠在日本做服務那韓國也是成立一個Starlink Korea LLC的公司的方式也讓Starlink在韓國也落地了那麼現在問題是說那台灣在這個部分因為包含部長剛剛一拆很多委員諮詢提到說海底電台會斷訊的問題那通訊任性會受到影響的問題那在這部分上面我們除了去"},{"start":102.928,"end":129.696,"text":"這種電纜的補救之外我們到底對於這種全球性這種星 像STARLINK這樣子這種衛星 第一個衛星這種訊號的這個的立場是什麼 現在的狀況是 那個對我們速發部或對整個政府來講我們當然是希望台灣能有越多的這個衛星通訊的那個選擇當然是越好那之前據我了解是因為那個STARLINK他堅持說他在台灣他希望是百分之百由他自己去"},{"start":131.536,"end":156.322,"text":"經營就設立那個分公司來或者是子公司100%來經營這個衛星的服務但是依照台灣的電信管理法第36條就是規定必須那個外資不能超過50%那因為這個事情就卡住了那後來就沒有談得很好那最近我們事實上是有主動的去問那個STARLINK就是說他們有沒有興趣來台灣結果他們給我們的回覆是說"},{"start":157.162,"end":184.162,"text":"因為台灣現在4G跟5G的那個普及率太高了人口覆蓋率已經超過99%了所以他認為說台灣的市場很小所以他認為說這個台灣對他們來講是low priority的市場所以他們不是很積極但是即使在這個狀況下我們還是我們資源師這邊還是會持續跟他們就是溝通一下看他們就是說有沒有哪些地方我們雙方可以共同討論共同合作的地方我想這樣部長當然喔"},{"start":185.783,"end":211.613,"text":"商業公司要不要來落地 要不要來開發 台灣這個市場是商業公司自己的佈局的問題但問題是說現在台灣就像部長提到 前面有法規問題就是我們在電信管理法的部分 有相關這樣的限制所以導致前面談得不是很順利 當然現在包含本席在內還有一些委員提單說可能在股權上放寬 或是用專案認定 或是用其他的方式包含說可能涉及到國家安全 或涉及到通訊認訊的問題用專案核可方式去做這樣子的變通"},{"start":212.353,"end":234.863,"text":"到這樣子的立場上 術衛部有沒有辦法去支持這樣的做法因為這方面我覺得委員說得非常對我們當然是希望說有更多的選擇但是我們也希望說對方要有意願要不然我們這邊主動修法 人家又不來到時候就覺得好像是我們去來部長我跟你說"},{"start":237.944,"end":249.739,"text":"其實我們一開始我給你舉日本跟韓國的例子是這樣就是說其實日本跟韓國他們當然他們的市區戶他們整個訊號的普及率也比我們差多少也是科技很進步的國家但他們也是"},{"start":250.945,"end":276.377,"text":"這樣落地將開放了 是那今天我們 包括說現在有台灣WEB然後剛剛部長也提到說你會可能跟Amazon去談相關的合作 是就我們還是希望說有更多的選擇嘛所以今天在站在有更多的選擇現象我們先不管這些商業公司他要不要進來 是應該是說在法令上我們要有這個空間 是未來有需要 假設或者他們評估或覺得台灣還是有潛在的空間潛在的市場 他們能夠來嘛那現在是因為法律上的限制 是導致他就算想來"},{"start":277.297,"end":304.943,"text":"或許他現在可能他可能此刻不願意來但我不知道可能下一季或明年有什麼狀況他們願意來等等的這種情況發生的時候或者真的萬一發生兩岸一些發生一些衝突狀況或是說我們的電纜被切斷了我們對外通訊被影響的時候是不是就有這個需求所以這部分我覺得是要大家你在世衛部我們應該要未雨綢繆去面對這件事情啦所以在法規上是不是應該去支持開放我現在問說你們會不會支持法規上要做一定程度的開放"},{"start":305.363,"end":330.856,"text":"如果他們有意願要來的話那我們這些都可以討論因為這個算再怎麼樣這也算是一個國際上的談判那因為牽涉到我們的那個國家當然我們還是可以顧那個國家主權當初電信法36條為什麼那樣設置我想一定有它背後的原因那背後的原因是不是已經消失了還是說繼續存在但是我們可以做調整這個都是可以討論的所以我們很希望就是說第一步我們先跟那個STARLINK那邊就是"},{"start":331.937,"end":357.584,"text":"你能明確的知道他們希望怎麼做再來我們在雙方再來坐下來談他們希望我們做什麼那我們希望他做什麼這個都是可以談的因為這種事情我們並不是說有什麼原因我們不喜歡他們或討厭他們不是這樣子我們就是在為了國家利益最重要的就是我們國家的利益我們必須去找到一個最好的方式"},{"start":357.864,"end":381.665,"text":"好 部長謝謝 因為像這個相關數據你們都知道包含說STARLINK MOBILE他們在這樣全球這麼多國家有覆蓋 有時候真的發生緊急狀況的時候很多地方他能夠對外通訊 甚至剛剛一凱提到連詐騙集團被斷訊的時候 他還是透過性聯繫去做詐騙當然後續他們有去做相關處置啦 我說代表說這個技術在各地已經開始應用了 所以我們希望台灣不要再落後在這個部分 好不好"},{"start":382.925,"end":402.391,"text":"接下來提到一個大家非常關心詐騙的問題今天一樣不是跟你談細節 要談一些管理的部分 責任歸屬的部分這個數位部的網路詐騙通報系統 當然你們能者多老啦感謝你們去做這樣的工作 去做相關通報讓大家能夠來通報 讓大家提早的警示但是如果我們從幾個數據上來看起來"},{"start":406.345,"end":416.993,"text":"在過去30天裡面是上代處理或重要性低的這個的這個比例大概佔17%那目前資訊上部署判斷的比例13%左右換句話說"},{"start":418.533,"end":445.003,"text":"除了確認是詐騙跟確認非詐騙以外的訊息大概有30%的比例它是不知道什麼狀況或是根本還沒處理的那這部分到底是誰的問題是數位部的問題是發布的問題還是是各機關所以目前顯示這個部分是各權責機關沒有去回應你們還是說你們在初步篩選的速度不夠還是說是平台業者去拒絕去做相關的回覆到底是什麼原因導致"},{"start":445.703,"end":473.417,"text":"我們還有衛生電還有百分之三十的這個這樣子的通報通報網上有了但通報資訊我們不知道它是什麼狀況是什麼原因造成的事實上那個委員講的兩個原因都有第一個就是說有些訊息我們的確是選擇不處理因為這個詐騙集團它用那個科技的方式用那個自動AI的方式它一直產生詐騙訊息如果每個訊息都去做人工判斷的話那會浪費我們大量的人力我們就是被它搞得那個貧民貧民奔命"},{"start":474.097,"end":488.54,"text":"所以我們對於那種就是它發布出來我們那個AI巡檢到但是根本沒有人閱讀到根本其他人也沒看到我們就擺在後面就先不處理那另外我們就是把這個分案分到各個部會的話他們也是用同樣的方式就是說"},{"start":489.321,"end":506.508,"text":"基本上我們分給他都已經是那個覺得說比較危險的他們要希望他們去處理但是有時候他們限於人力那現在那個像是內政部因為他們有警察系統他們是那個週末都有人在處理但是有些部會因為他週末沒有在上班所以他有時候處理會比較慢一點"},{"start":507.588,"end":530.996,"text":"因為之前你們在回覆審計部的時候是透過跨部會議去檢討各部會執行情形是 這個我們也有做對 那你們在檢討 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調查 以上報告"},{"start":304.982,"end":333.047,"text":"地檢署也沒說要幹什麼啊地檢署我也沒給他移送啊也沒幹什麼啊沒有沒有那除非你中華電力來告人家如果中華電力告人家的話那中華電力如果告人家這裡面牽扯國安的話哇那開會我去看那個開會參加的單位八九個勒七八個十個勒那麼多單位然後大陸又在關鍵這個事情大陸現在跟我們官方沒有來往"},{"start":334.349,"end":345.975,"text":"昨天晚上大陸又打電話給我說北京也非常關切這個事情你曉得馬祖跟對面的地緣關係是非常的敏感我們不希望因為你台灣有台灣海峽"},{"start":347.25,"end":366.695,"text":"我們馬祖近在咫尺,我們兩邊的關係都保持得良好我們也不希望有任何不好的事情發生所以他想說,能不能弄一個民間的團體,到這邊來有關漁船的糾紛能夠協助處理尤其是這個海嵐,現在動不動就扯到國安"},{"start":367.762,"end":394.815,"text":"是不是,那很多委員都擔心海南一段了是不是對面在搞一些軍方的事情啊等等都有疑慮嘛,是不是所以現在他們也擔心因為這個海鴻宮啊,是個工作平台船很貴耶,那一天不知道美金多少錢你現在給它綁在那邊我看了他們的報告復工計畫要到4月8號才提復工計畫"},{"start":396.084,"end":418.038,"text":"四月八號復工計畫他們也建議說船最好不要動那你平台船不動的話海嵐在平台船底下你動的話他就一拉扯一拉扯你本來斷了十三根好啦萬一再斷了一百多根那這個帳怎麼算是不是那你要賠這個一賠就幾百萬幾千萬的"},{"start":421.805,"end":446.792,"text":"這個你要把人家公司搞垮,我為了去救這個漁船你把人家公司搞垮,所以對方也是老公那邊也是很擔心這個事情那我們這裡呢地檢署說我沒管你啊,是你海巡啊然後你把那個船長又把他放在南竿這個船是在北竿,船員又在船上那如果浪大的話"},{"start":448.847,"end":477.808,"text":"這個平台船在上面沒有船長的狀況你看沒有船長飛機如果沒有駕駛員的話飛機在空中會發生什麼事這個亂飆亂撞的話那又是一個定時炸彈那萬一出了狀況誰負責啊那地檢署說你們也沒向我告狀啊我不告不理啊對不對那你海巡什麼態度呢海巡要看你們什麼速發部啦什麼中華貼信啊這單位可多了"},{"start":479.005,"end":486.676,"text":"那你們再不表示意見好了我看這個問題很大市長你有沒有辦法解決這個問題"},{"start":488.23,"end":515.868,"text":"因為當時的計畫施工是行政單位的一個計畫又多了一個海港局所以海港局應該跟海巡署會去做這方面的討論那至於速發部的部分的話我們就會根據中華電信的實際的海底勘查的狀況來做後續的應酬不是啊 海港局說海南關我海港局什麼事嗎我海港局只管港口還有海水海裡面的魚我也管不到是不是"},{"start":517.669,"end":541.789,"text":"這海嵐又不是我航港局管的我了解委員的意思我們抒發部會盡快的去協調讓這個事情一方面趕快修復而一方面趕快把這個事情處理好你這回答就有guess對不對你主任單位嘛你不要像高雄昨天出那個什麼事件那個吃那個什麼東西高雄啊潤餅潤餅潤餅潤餅說要"},{"start":548.034,"end":553.426,"text":"檢調單位去查我說你衛生單位在睡覺啊你主政單位是衛生局嘛這個也要調查局喔"},{"start":557.034,"end":584.016,"text":"檢察官檢察系統來喔沒道理嘛你是組政單位嘛怎麼叫海港去查咧怎麼叫什麼什麼什麼海巡去查咧好不好部長我想這個關於海嵐的管理事實上真的是分工相當複雜但是我們速發部如果沒這回事你不要去搞人家嘛你把人家弄成那個船在那邊幹什麼咧反正你是老共的船嘛我也不管你給他搞個30天50天搞個3個月5個月"},{"start":586.16,"end":611.055,"text":"好不好 不要留下不好的印象嘛是 好 沒問題部長這個弄完 牛市長那邊給我回報一下好不好是我想部長很忙啦 我不好意思勞動他市長這邊起碼去了解一下狀況 整合一下整合一下好不好是你不要推給海巡也不要推給什麼航港局他們那些單位不會有太多意見啦問題是中華電信啦 你給我弄清楚好不好是好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168279","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168279","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/70d8fc05dcd8abb016845f5e588725bef747912251df08273efd812baa63ee588974e5e652c6c4c95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐富癸","委員發言時間":"11:43:27 - 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有請我們林部長好 我們請林部長"},{"start":14.454,"end":34.923,"text":"院長來部長早部長是我想今天還是有幾個這個問題要請教部長也要請部長幫忙是部長我想上一次我在委員會有特別提到這個我們的這個海嵐防護的一個工作是那根據國安會最近的一個書面報告統計今年第一季中共對我們政府的這個網路的侵擾高達"},{"start":38.285,"end":60.594,"text":"1.7億次是非常的恐怖是等於平均一天就有超過190萬次部長你們有掌握這個狀況嗎有當然有是那我想另外一個我們比較擔心的問題這個中共這個無所不用其極這個用甲魚船徵軍艦的方式就是我們所謂的影子艦隊的方式是藉由這樣的一個軍事訓練"},{"start":62.034,"end":81.256,"text":"甚至是有可能是針對我們這個整個國際通訊的部分海南的部分做一個蓄意破壞的一個部分那我想這部分我上次也特別請部長我們不管是跟海巡署也好跟我們港港局也好我們應該保持這樣的一個互動互助的一個模式那這部分我們有目前的進度有掌握嗎"},{"start":82.759,"end":110.92,"text":"我們現在事實上我們那個任信司最近才出了一個報告就是講說我們這個關於海嵐的那個過去一年來那個發生那個斷纜的原因等提出報告那我們事實上我們任信司現在也訂出了一個那個指引就是告訴大家就是講說我們怎樣做分類然後發生這種海嵐斷裂的那個事情的時候我們怎樣追究責等等這個我們這個有一個報告事實上才剛發布那我們這個都有掌握到所有的狀況"},{"start":112.021,"end":132.039,"text":"我想就是說我們應該要防患慰藥就針對這個不管是這個中共的船隻也好或者是一些掛外籍的這個群也好我想我們應該都要掌握他們的位置甚至有些在那邊我們的這個訪山到航村海域部分這是我們最密集的地方"},{"start":133.039,"end":158.561,"text":"那過去也常常有他們就有在這邊出沒的一個跡象那有時候故意在那邊用什麼船隻故障的名義或是在做什麼等待要入高雄港的名義我想這部分我們確實必須要擔憂啦那除了這之外我上次也特別有提到您有談到針對這樣的一個入海空的一個多元通信的建置部分那我想屏東是我們這個很重要的一個基地"},{"start":159.221,"end":176.503,"text":"那我們未來針對這樣的一個實體的監控跟數位的一個預警我想跟國安單位跟海巡單位整合的部分是不是應該已經有做了一個合作的一個機制有因為那個關於那個衛星通訊這個事實上是牽涉到國安跟那個"},{"start":178.045,"end":201.784,"text":"就國防那當然是說有些事情是比較機敏性但是我們速發部這邊有很大的職責就是想辦法找到商業的解決方案像我們之前用的那個OneWeb像SES還有現在有一些那個同步衛星還有我們在持續在找比如說Amazon這個洽談就是我們有好幾個配套的一個部分我們希望有更多的選擇更好"},{"start":202.785,"end":220.728,"text":"好 部長那因為我知道現在目前當然剛剛有特別提到總預算的問題到目前為止你們今天的總預算還沒有通過所以其實對你們來講真的是很多業務執行商遇到很多的困難那加上我知道你們的人力的部分限援跟編制還是有一定的落差"},{"start":221.869,"end":239.337,"text":"那這個1.7億次的供給當然我想對中央政府來講我們比較有強大的一個治安系統跟人力的一個系統可以去維護但是我比較擔心我們包含目前我們許多的地方政府我們那麼多的鄉鎮市公所甚至很多的我們基層的這些國營單位在"},{"start":241.218,"end":259.841,"text":"我們比較所謂的非六度的一個系統裡面他們的設備他們的人力比你們更不足是要為了怎麼樣因應這樣的一個治安的恐攻是有沒有什麼防範的一個措施那我們這邊抒發部有幾項作為第一個當然是我們修那個最近修了那個"},{"start":260.822,"end":287.255,"text":"自通安全管理辦法那我們想辦法就是加強我們的監督的責任的那個力道那另外一方面我也在跟那個我們治安署還有治安院講就是說我們不能單單以那個監督的角度去做這些事情我們要想辦法主動去協助各級政府包含地方政府包含縣市包含鄉鎮那因為那個很多政府他本身並沒有這麼多的資源那這方面是不是請我們治安署署長補充說明一下謝謝"},{"start":289.729,"end":314.558,"text":"謝謝委員的關心那的確是地方政府的資安的確是我們最關心的一個部分因為的確是資源跟人力比較不足所以我們在去年底特別從我們的預算裡面我們自己本身有挪出一筆大概兩千多萬的經費然後我們也調查各地方政府他們所需要他們所欠缺的一些自動安全設備是哪些那我們也做了一些相關提供給他們採購然後提供給他們來先做使用"},{"start":314.998,"end":323.846,"text":"所以這個部分也補責一些比較欠缺在資安設施跟設備的部分的這些政府機關他們目前所缺的這樣的一些設備以上"},{"start":324.742,"end":345.536,"text":"我想這個部長跟署長還是要請你們多費心啊因為我知道尤其是我們很多基層的單位不要說設備啦這個你即使有設備也找不到人啦尤其我們的性質結構你一個月3萬多塊4萬塊誰都找專業的人士連你們在台北都找不到了所以我想怎麼樣去處理盤點喔真的還是要花一點時間來處理啦"},{"start":347.858,"end":369.754,"text":"是那個委員說的一點都沒錯所以我們為了解決這個問題我們現在想辦法就是提供一些那個大家可以各個縣市政府或者是地方那個鄉鎮政府可以用的一些軟體就是用那個產品化的那個譬如說資安方面的軟體讓大家可以直接採購就不用去找人了還有很多的工作可以雲端化雲端化等於說這個"},{"start":371.896,"end":381.463,"text":"雲端的這個治安當然就是由那些雲端的公司去處理那各個鄉鎮政府或者縣市政府就不用另外去請人來管這個他自己的伺服器了"},{"start":381.991,"end":409.819,"text":"不然這個我還是要建議因為即使你們把錢把預算撥到地方去但是你們有沒有去檢視第一個他們有沒有建構第二個建構之後他們在使用上面有沒有照我們的這個SOP去執行不然一開始沒那個效果我覺得你們還是要去做定期每季或是半年要去檢測他們到底有沒有去落實這樣的一個制度這個資安集合還是請我們那個資安署署長說明一下"},{"start":411.503,"end":434.618,"text":"謝謝委員的關心的確是我們治安法修法之後我們可以到地方去做集合我們除了集合之外我們會去仿視各地方政府他們對這種相關治安的資源的需求然後是他們所碰到的一些相關的問題我想委員剛所提示的這些我想我們都會來做我想這個恐攻不會只有從中央無孔不入我們要從每個環節都要去注意一下"},{"start":437.683,"end":455.194,"text":"我想針對AI的詐騙的一個問題我舉一個例子芬蘭從2014年對於俄羅斯的一個威脅資訊戰他們就把一個多元素養納入一個課綱我想尤其像我們最近屏東很恐怖的甚至連我們這個小農的產地直銷"},{"start":457.615,"end":473.343,"text":"都被詐騙 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謝謝主席那我們是不是請部長好 我請你部長"},{"start":15.274,"end":38.802,"text":"部長好我想我今天還是關心這個國際上我們台灣融入這個非紅供應鏈的問題我們台美直接有簽署細勝式宣言台美經濟安全合作聯合聲明深化台美高科技的供應鏈的信賴關係共同推動AI半導體以及無人機等產業的非紅供應鏈那我們跟法國也有"},{"start":41.603,"end":58.804,"text":"簽署一個產業創新的備忘錄跟英國日本我們也在簽訂數位貿易的一個協定希望能夠為企業跟消費者提供開放包容安全且公平的數位貿易環境所以呢賴總統有宣示我們要融入這個飛鴻供應鏈"},{"start":61.667,"end":75.155,"text":"我們引以為傲是什麼 台灣為系島之心要走向全世界那不僅僅是半導體的一個硬體AI的硬體我們要走向世界包括AI軟體更要拚 對不對好 接著下一個 我就要請教你"},{"start":78.377,"end":90.307,"text":"當我們長期在佈局走向AI人工智慧之島那我們有六大智慧的一個終端的關鍵技術這個當然都是以國家之力量在做佈局也剛剛我看到許志傑委員在問的當我們在佈局的同時我們如何向下扎根"},{"start":97.513,"end":118.42,"text":"在這個科技產業跟AI產業技術的一個教育人才之培育等等其實都在我們的布局策略之一對不對所以我們要軟硬堅持嘛我們不是只有製造這個半導體這個硬體不是只有製造AI產業裡面的相關的一個零組件硬體我們"},{"start":120.9,"end":131.285,"text":"軟體系統才是真正的這個核心嘛對不對那真正的核心軟體就跟數位發展部的角色很重要來下一頁為什麼會這麼講當我們在發展人工智慧產業的時候AI是我們引以為傲也是下一個台灣的下一個台灣的這個產業重心向全世界都能夠宣示台灣在這方面佔有優勢也願意投資願意"},{"start":150.474,"end":168.981,"text":"來讓我們台灣整體的產業都能夠跟著升級轉型但是也因為這樣子面臨了很大的一個挑戰國安單位已經有示警這是一份國家情報工作暨國家安全局的業務報告裡面就曾經指出中國共產黨那邊非常積極的拉攏國際上也好或是台灣也好AI產業的"},{"start":176.924,"end":202.521,"text":"相關的第一個人才的挖角科技的竊密還有收購管制貨品等等他為了就是什麼除了我們先進製程的晶片核心技術之外那他對於人的方面也是非常積極的在經營那再加上我們現在台灣的AI產業裡面所有產業升級在使用的軟體系統"},{"start":204.821,"end":225.45,"text":"部長 你有掌握過這些軟體系統 中國方面的技術第一個 先進嗎 第二個 影響台灣嗎第三個 台灣我們自己內部的各產業在運用 在使用的這些系統軟體哪些來自中國 你有掌握嗎"},{"start":226.01,"end":253.426,"text":"是因為我本身就來自於軟體產業那因為軟體產業的特性就是他開發成本非常高然後複製成本很低所以通常軟體產業都會盡量去尋找大的市場那因為中國的市場比台灣大很多所以在過去20年大概從工研2000年開始就是台灣的軟體公司通常都是在台灣跟中國大陸兩邊一起就是都是經營市場所以在這個公司裡面也會有很多的中國籍員工但是隨著這個在"},{"start":254.947,"end":271.483,"text":"COVID-19以後美中基本上已經脫鉤了然後因為中國他有一個叫做國家情報法然後國家情報法裡面第七條規定就是說那個中國的所有的公民還有組織都必須協助配合支持國家的情報工作"},{"start":272.003,"end":292.842,"text":"那這一點就讓全世界其他的民主國家都非常緊張不單是我們台灣緊張其實美國日本歐盟那邊都非常緊張所以現在就是說在這個軟體產業上也逐漸的脫鉤那我事實上最近才去參加那個在San Francisco的那個國際資安大會RSAC那裡面大家都提到這個問題然後顯然的就是說"},{"start":295.464,"end":322.872,"text":"大家都認為說這是很大的資安威脅所以我們現在也想辦法就是要去釐清就是讓台灣的這些這些產業軟體產業盡量把它就是機密的東西千萬不能讓中國的公司部長我當然知道你的這樣子的理念我們也認為在疫情過後美中的角力當中有一大部分的軟體系統產業也一定會做所謂的脫鉤"},{"start":323.952,"end":336.044,"text":"我們也期待這樣子的一個系統脫鉤但是我重點是後面的但是但是你到底掌握了多少就我所知台灣內部我們自己本身在產業在依賴這個系統軟體的一個部分"},{"start":344.893,"end":358.901,"text":"到底有沒有第一個有沒有意識到這是中國來的系統軟體第一個第二個因為您講的因為中國的市場大所以過去台灣中國在不管是人才或是技術的研發或者是系統軟體的應用方面"},{"start":361.291,"end":372.474,"text":"到底在現在能不能完全脫鉤這個是我們必須自己對國內要有掌握不管是在我們的AI產業的供應鏈的每一個環節裡面的系統軟體我們到底能不能掌握有盤點第二個我們如何協助這些系統軟體產業鏈裡面的每一環每一節都能夠成為我們強調的所謂的非紅供應鏈"},{"start":387.319,"end":398.852,"text":"這個包括我們現在在中小微型企業看到的當我們要輔導他們AI升級轉型的時候要他們應用數位科技的時候他們使用的軟體到底是不是紅色供應鏈"},{"start":401.175,"end":422.227,"text":"一般中小微型企業沒有概念那他們依賴的是什麼系統軟體業者那這些系統軟體業者就是我們數位發展部應該要有所掌握那甚至我們還要去主導宣示台灣要跟民主國家站在一起我們希望所有的系統產業都能夠"},{"start":425.049,"end":433.706,"text":"支持非紅供應鏈這個是必須要非常有自律而且必須要有自覺那這個部分我們數位發展部有沒有掌握"},{"start":435.126,"end":454.055,"text":"這方面基本上有兩種做法一種做法是我做實際的資安檢測另外一種就是我排除紅色供應鏈現在美國的做法以前都還會去檢查是不是有資安漏洞現在美國就直接很多地方就講說不能有紅色的供應商我們台灣自己國內數位發展部有直接講嗎"},{"start":458.693,"end":477.985,"text":"對 那我們現在就是有那個危害國家資通安全產品的清單那這個事情就是我們是不是請我們的資安署署長來說明因為我們發覺說這個產品就是說資訊產品它可以分成三個部分一個是具有計算能力的硬體第二個是不具計算能力的硬體第三個是軟體那軟體有很多的模組所組成的"},{"start":480.706,"end":500.654,"text":"然後我們會要求以後會要求就是說你在就是廠商都必須申報那如果由政府來進行採購的話你必須你這個申報必須誠實申報然後就看裡面如果有紅色供應鏈的那個軟體或者是那個具計算能力的硬體的話那我們依照我們的那個規定就是不能採購所以我才說當"},{"start":503.915,"end":522.27,"text":"當我們現在鄭麗君副院長前幾天也說過他今年也說過當我們宣示無人載具是2027的飛鴻供應鏈的目標我們要達到目標那我也期待AI產業的供應鏈也要訂出明確的目標為什麼即使是無人載具它上面也有"},{"start":523.083,"end":536.333,"text":"AI的系統 沒錯沒錯 這個是我們講的所以 對啊我們對這個國家大家對你的期待是什麼網路不能斷 系統不能讓駭客入侵資料不能丟失 剛剛你也提到大數據 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跟委員報告就是說在智慧城市方面其實通常各個計畫都是由各個縣市政府地方政府它自己提的但是我們速發部在中央的話我們有兩件很重要的事情第一個是要設定資料交換的標準然後另外一個是資料儲存的架構那資料儲存的架構就牽涉到以AI來講就是算力中心"},{"start":154.821,"end":177.288,"text":"我們希望說在這個AI算力中心裡面有足夠的算力而且這個算力都是提供好的那個API還有就是這些那個AI的算力它是不是那個有符合我們台灣主權AI的這種標準就是有台灣的價值觀然後是對繁體中文有足夠的了解對台灣社會有足夠的了解所以加入城市的已經有動作了嗎"},{"start":177.768,"end":203.877,"text":"是 我們現在跟那個台南市政府跟還有高雄市政府還有跟台北市政府等等我們都有各種不同的合作事實上我應該是明天就是我就會再到那個台南市就談一些智慧政府的一些合作所以就是說你這個已經加進去台灣主權這12億token裡面有包含這些城市的東西進去了嗎"},{"start":205.091,"end":226.896,"text":"這個可能要請我們副市長說明一下是 委員好 針對地方政府的部分我們在今年初也已經開過三場的這個說明會那接下來現在地方政府正在盤點所以預計大概在第三季的時候就會有地方政府的資料可以上線 以上所以第三季 也是今年的第三季才會一起進去我們台灣的主權AI裡面"},{"start":227.896,"end":250.885,"text":"好 這個希望能夠盡快啦 然後跟各縣市聯合我想台灣的聲音 就是尤其是黃文勳我講過一直誇獎我們是世界智慧暖身城市的典範嘛那這些東西應該都要進去所以也讓台灣 讓高雄我們所做的成績可以讓世界看到"},{"start":251.685,"end":265.877,"text":"也可以讓我們每次查資料真的是查到我們繁體制屬於台灣 屬於高雄 屬於各城市所組成的AI希望這個能夠盡快進去好 那我想整個AI未來的世界典範"},{"start":267.776,"end":292.37,"text":"我看韓國砸千億韓元推動AI校園計畫目的在10年之內培育1萬名人工智慧專家這個差不多台幣差不多30億左右然後日本他們也大概有1900億日元差不多7千億左右的預算就是在我們培養AI基本人才"},{"start":293.385,"end":306.805,"text":"那我們速發部當然也有做 速發基金差不多一百億左右嘛是是是普發會也差不多一百億左右嘛是但是這個針對人才培育有沒有特定出來"},{"start":307.87,"end":326.375,"text":"OK 關於那個人才培育因為現在AI的人才到底是怎麼定義這個是一個關鍵因為之前我們就是有提出一些AI人才的那個培訓的那個計畫那我那些業界的朋友都跟我開玩笑講說如果會用Chad GPT就叫AI人才的話那三分鐘就可以訓練一個所以我們聽到這種"},{"start":328.316,"end":343.515,"text":"這種講法以後我們速發部就訂定了AI產業人才認定指引明確的就是訂出各種人才譬如說那個AI那個應用AI來改善生產力的人才這是最基礎的然後中層是說利用現有的工具去"},{"start":344.736,"end":361.517,"text":"去建立那個AI應用的人才這是中等然後再來是AI基礎研究的人才那基礎研究的人才是那個國科會跟教育部的職責然後中間跟那個下面這個都是我們速發部的職責那我們就利用這個人才認定指引希望建立一個"},{"start":362.378,"end":383.413,"text":"那個好的人才AI人才訓練的生態系就是說你訓練的人認證的人他在做這些事情的時候他還可以賺到錢他一旦民間的這個產業賺到錢這個就像一個輪子一樣就會一直的滾動那我們希望用這種方法來大量來就是來訓練出台灣的人才我想提一個建議是"},{"start":384.318,"end":405.231,"text":"就是現在世界各國都在努力當中 也都在開始當中所以你要說等我們教育部 我們塑化部各司其職有時候其實可能這邊跟那邊互相不見得跟得上所以我覺得部會的整合非常的重要"},{"start":406.232,"end":429.235,"text":"那像韓國他有一個AI戰略十年計畫那就是由一個國家AI戰略委員會那對AI創新學院整體有一個長遠的佈局那這個部分速發部跟教育部有沒有這樣子一個AI戰略指導委員會或者是AI戰略十年計畫"},{"start":430.476,"end":454.478,"text":"就是說這個必須要兩個部會去合作思考是 關於那個國家整體的AI的戰略這個是在台灣是由國科會負責的那國科會那邊就是經常都會找我們就包含抒發部 包含教育部包含衛福部等等 我們都會一起來討論就是要如何進行我們AI的發展我舉個例子 就是說"},{"start":455.92,"end":475.053,"text":"國發會有100億的基金對不對是從去年3月到今年2月是一年的時間是它100億是打算10年嘛是從去年3月到今年2月已經一年了是總共合約訂了6個案子是投資了7556萬是 這個金額非常低還不到1億對這個速度事實上是相當慢是"},{"start":482.578,"end":494.866,"text":"所以我是覺得我們把錢擺在那裡結果使用力很低所以我在這邊有具體建立兩個方向一個方向就是說我今天是不是有可能吸收國外的"},{"start":496.514,"end":518.526,"text":"新創的表現良好的公司進來比如說新加坡他有吸收一個那個AI相機這個其實是台灣人創辦的結果因為他表現的很好所以新加坡就去吸引他們來吸引我們台灣人"},{"start":521.039,"end":549.137,"text":"創辦的公司到新加坡去設亞洲總部這個他現在在英國啦類似這樣子的案件就是說我們把很強的新創公司拉進來就跟我們現在世界各國都要拉我們的台積電去設廠一樣的道理那這個部分是不是在我們的國發基金或者是我們自己蘇發部的百億基金有沒有可能去做這件事"},{"start":549.825,"end":574.625,"text":"是 謝謝委員的提醒現在其實台灣有個特性就是台灣的人才常常是在台灣跟加州矽谷事實上是兩邊住的尤其AI這方面的人才那我們現在非常希望說能吸引一些這種就是在台灣跟加州矽谷之間這樣經常來往的這些AI人才我們要具體的成果比如說我AI的人才"},{"start":575.345,"end":601.967,"text":"或者是我AI的新創公司都屬於泰斗型的那我們把它吸收到台灣來 現在有嗎有 事實上有一些公司譬如說那個TX-1還有那個他們那個就業系列還有VIC-1等等這個都是一些大公司下面成立的一個新創公司那這個都是一些台美人他們在經營的那我們現在在想辦法在吸引他們回台還在努力當中"},{"start":603.028,"end":631.227,"text":"因為他們研發總部通常都是在台灣因為台灣有很好的人才但是他上市往往會選擇在國外上市所以在認定上有時候人家就講說你在國外上市就不能算是台灣公司其實這些公司老闆是台灣人然後裡面的研發人員大部分都是台灣的AI人才那我們現在非常努力在勸說這些公司至少他把他的研發總部留在台灣那如果他能選擇在台灣上市的話那當然會更好這是一個方向"},{"start":633.189,"end":650.326,"text":"我現在看到的是兩百億他發揮的效果不高啦那我們要怎麼樣讓他發揮更大的效果然後有個整體的專業佈局讓台灣可以走到AI軟體的前頭啦硬體的前頭我們已經有台積電了嘛"},{"start":651.507,"end":679.752,"text":"軟體的前途是不是有機會用這樣子投資的方式去吸收國外的新創公司優秀或突出的新創公司到台灣來這是第一第二就是人才的培育你如果先拔10億或是先拔20億你要先因為我這裡不知道看說高進用不一億啦這個當然我一起就是事務發布一起來思考就是部會之間的溝通一起來思考那比如說"},{"start":680.712,"end":695.088,"text":"高雄我希望說現在藝學的雇傭其實現在電也好 台積電也好這些都是比較足夠那有沒有可能設一個AI人才培育基地是"},{"start":696.13,"end":712.727,"text":"比如說高科大現在是全台灣最大的綜合性的科技大學它裡面的各方面的互相的資源的科系也比較充沛因為每個大學都會做人才培育基地但是有一個頭來帶動那個效果會比較好"},{"start":715.99,"end":729.98,"text":"那我們是不是有可能就是說讓這一個案子比如說在高科大或者是中山大學等等的我只是舉個例子但是我是認為說有一個頭比如說高科大當作我們"},{"start":731.181,"end":746.629,"text":"AI人才培育基地這樣子一個概念那速發部或國發會就可以多投入一些資源那你把它做成這一個AI的態度的學校那其他的各個學校就可以互相再做更多的交流至少有人在整合"},{"start":747.809,"end":775.445,"text":"這個可能性高嗎原本那個國科會就有這方面的想法就希望把一些那個頂尖的科技大學做為那個AI人才訓練的中心甚至於直接就開發產品去上市那這個我們會密切的跟國科會一起合作簡單的講就是說各個大學都會說我在培養AI人才這個都沒有問題但是你把資源或者是把注意力或者是要看到有具體的成果"},{"start":775.985,"end":798.852,"text":"在某一所或某幾所大學身上那你看到那個成果會比較具體所以我就具體建議就是說我們這200億啦包括國發會包括我們速發部那甚至速發部也主動主要是你的肉的最重嘛那能夠跟教育部那大家彼此做一個聯繫有一個AI的戰略的概念"},{"start":799.392,"end":816.609,"text":"所以在吸收國外人才吸收國外優良的新創公司這是其一其二就是我們國內的人才培育基地能夠focus在幾所大學比如說我們高雄至少一所類似這樣子的概念是不是會比較能夠發揮效果"},{"start":817.93,"end":842.931,"text":"是 這個事情我們會跟國科會密切的討論跟合作因為這些預算的這方面的預算是國科會那邊在分配的那我們當然是希望朝這個方向發展謝謝委員的提醒這個就拜託部長整合一下相關的部會你們自己互相聯繫都沒問題嘛把它整合得更好剛剛這兩點我希望能夠看到成果沒問題 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謝謝主席 我想有請那個國安局蔡局長好 請局長好 謝謝主席 黃委員好各位聽眾你好 局長好局長今天是我們國安局的這個業務報告那我們都曉得國安局負責的就是台灣跟國際間的情報的安全工作那剛國安局也針對近期我們美伊戰爭的這個影響以及中國大陸對我國近期的這個威脅進行報告"},{"start":31.381,"end":45.441,"text":"尤其近期這個美伊戰爭導致全球能源石化供應鏈大亂我們台灣不僅石油漲價連石化產業也因為雲霧物料的供應減少被迫停工導致全台缺塑膠"},{"start":47.042,"end":68.787,"text":"的這個亂象那影響我們台灣的民生經濟那今天早上八點是川普總統要求伊朗要重啟這個荷姆斯海峽最後的期限那索性每兩國同意停戰兩週然後約定在四月十號再重啟這個展開談判那未來兩國是否會停戰這個人在觀察那如果戰爭持續"},{"start":70.578,"end":88.835,"text":"那對台灣能源跟我們的石化工業會影響到越來越嚴重那國安局既然都掌握到國際的這個情勢的變化那本席想要就教我們局長就是說那國安局內部研判我們每一戰爭是否會停止那如果戰爭仍然持續那國安局內部評估對我們國內經濟的影響會有多大"},{"start":94.023,"end":107.852,"text":"管局必須掌握國際情勢 因為分析未來這個局勢的發展提供給我們行政院還有相關的部會他可以提早做應變像這次的塑膠袋之亂看起來就是經濟部沒有掌握好然後導致這沒辦法及時的啟動這個應變的機制"},{"start":110.194,"end":126.668,"text":"整個國際的變化又很快速那這部分我想請國安局務必要做好這個勤收的工作報告那適時的提供給行政院跟相關部會讓他們可以在第一時間盡快的做出這樣的措施好這部分謝謝委員的提醒跟關切"},{"start":127.208,"end":145.316,"text":"那因為中東的情勢在今年2月28號美國發動對伊朗的攻擊行動之後那它牽動到的就不只是中東地緣政治的變化也影響到荷姆治海峽航運的安全而影響到全球的一個能源供應的穩定性那造成的衝擊是全面性的全球性的"},{"start":146.216,"end":165.973,"text":"在相關的情資收集的部分我們跟國際有盟都有在不斷的交換情資那也透過我們的國安首長會議有跟行政院的系統做相關的一個分析跟報告那我所知道的是行政院它有物價穩定跟油價穩定的小組那應該定期的會對外做說明跟發布"},{"start":166.553,"end":181.07,"text":"那至於怎麼處理我想委員應該可以理解我們必須要尊重行政院的處理因為我們是比較像是上游的情資分析的一個系統那把這個情勢讓行政院部分可以來做必要的應酬我們尊重行政院的處理"},{"start":181.67,"end":197.619,"text":"那後續可能還是要注意的是因為這次的這種能源的供應的穩定性的一個衝擊委員剛剛的問題是在那個時間點那什麼時候停戰那停戰之後會不會有影響那我必須要跟委員報告的是即使停戰"},{"start":198.519,"end":224.688,"text":"可能那個衝擊的效應還是會持續的存在因為畢竟中東當地有一些煉油的設施確實是在戰事當中有受到迫擊那他必須要做一些復原的所以他有涉及到國際上各個國家都不斷的在調度相關的油跟氣的一個供應那所以這部分我們有把相關的資訊也希望行政院在看相關問題的時候可以用更不只是短期中長期的一個規劃要有一些"},{"start":227.349,"end":241.198,"text":"因為石油是民生之母所有東西都用得到包括還有醫藥也相關都會有所以這個部分提早讓他們做準備包括我們要怎麼應對接下來的情況我想這個是局裡面能夠第一時間掌握的情勢給他們做分析"},{"start":242.239,"end":266.542,"text":"那現在我想要在 國安局在今天的報告裡面也在提到說今年的工作的重點就是防範中共透過各種管道級方式滲透乃至於介入今年年底的地方選舉就是我們所謂的中共借選那這個問題本身也要講清楚就是說如果中共對台灣今年的選舉進行借選那確實是對我國這三十幾年來辛苦建立這個民主制度是一個很大的威脅"},{"start":267.463,"end":296.923,"text":"但是因為這個議題是高度的敏感然後嚴重影響那我想要問一個關鍵問題就是說國安體系在整個應對中共借權的同時它有沒有可能會反過來影響到我們國內內部的選舉的風向那因為從國安局的報告裡面大概應該 剛剛局長也說嘛你也掌握大量的借權的情質包括說正義的訊息啦 異常的帳號啦然後身為的內容還有就是金流以及地下賭盤種種我想請教這些資訊對外揭露的標準是什麼"},{"start":297.663,"end":322.259,"text":"是全面的或者即時公開或者是選擇性的釋出那如果是選擇性的話那是由誰決定什麼時候講講多少要講給誰聽因為這些訊息啊一旦在選舉期間釋出啊它本身就足以影響到整個社會氛圍跟選民的判斷甚至會影響整個大選的結果那我舉個例像我們前立委孔文吉"},{"start":322.739,"end":347.759,"text":"他當年到大陸參加這個少數人民主的活動那後來被指控他違反了這個反滲透法而且他在競選期間被偵辦結果後來結論是花蓮地檢署偵檢是全部不起訴處分但是他有沒有影響到選舉結果確實有影響嘛那另外還有就前陣子才發生的就我們這一屆發生的就是民進黨的前立委因為有這個疑似不雅的影片流出"},{"start":348.439,"end":359.593,"text":"那為什麼要用疑似就是因為影片送到國安局他都沒有辦法去證明說這個影片到底是真的還是偽造的所以外界會質疑說這個是不是有不同的標準或在護航的這些過程"},{"start":360.424,"end":382.729,"text":"那我們先前吳宗憲委員其實在質詢的時候也提到說法務部的資料裡面統計我們2024年大選期間違反反滲透法還有選罷法的案件不起訴的人數高達416人就是將近八成八成的案件都不起訴或無罪喔我舉這些例子就是要說明說一件事情足以影響一場選舉"},{"start":386.15,"end":411.958,"text":"在選舉期間中共借選四個字它本身就具有高度的政治效果如果沒有嚴格的標準跟監督的話會不會把一般政治攻防解讀成借選的行為或者把特定的言論直接貼上認知作戰的標籤這樣的結果不只是防止外力它可能會壓手到我們國內的言論自由的空間"},{"start":412.978,"end":435.87,"text":"那這本席要強調就是說防範中共借權非常重要但是同樣重要的是我們不能在防範外部干預的同時也讓我們這個制度失去的中立性因為國安體系的權力越大他就更需要越透明或是更節制來監督他不然這個社會一旦產生這種反借權是不是也在影響選舉的結果"},{"start":437.971,"end":466.49,"text":"會讓人有這個懷疑那傷害的不是選舉的結果而已它傷害的是整個民主制度的這個信任的基礎那所以我在這邊也要請管局也要大聲地很清楚地跟大眾說我們在做這件事是確保我們這些作為是確保防衛民主而不是在介入民主部長我想第一點跟委員說明的是我想委員應該可以同意那民主選舉大概就是我們中華民國最重要的一個憲政制度跟主要的"},{"start":467.771,"end":486.36,"text":"政治價值所以確保我們的民主選舉的過程跟結果不受外力的干擾那我覺得最核心的一個任務也是我們國安局的使命那第二個部分是在公布中共屆選的樣態委員可能也會注意到不管是在今天的夜報還是我們以前都有年度的轉報我們大概所呈現的都是基本的"},{"start":488.001,"end":508.354,"text":"樣態跟那些手法那在今天的詢答或是在各個場合當中我都不會去涉入到個案的部分這大概是我們在處理上的一個基本的原則講的是一種總體性的樣態跟手法不談個案好那第三個部分是在處理包括委員提到的爭議訊息或認知作戰的部分國安局出面的話一定是國安層級"},{"start":509.395,"end":533.545,"text":"我們不會去涉入到選區委員之間可能有這種選舉的攻防而去變成是我們自己在借選 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謝謝主席 那請我們彭部長 有請彭部長我們循環署賴署長循環署賴署長土耳其人好"},{"start":17.421,"end":41.324,"text":"好 部長那今天先跟您討論一下我們一般廢棄物回收清除處理辦法我們廢清法裡面回收業者針對分類行為及中間處理行為這一方面的界定那我們針對像我們鋁罐我們壓扁鋁罐這也是屬於我們的物理行為那我們壓扁鋁罐最主要目的就是"},{"start":42.285,"end":60.998,"text":"我們把它壓緊之後打包成一個立方體也讓我們回收業者方便運輸方便儲存那可是針對同樣的情況那為什麼像我們採檢鋼筋那這部分回收業者他可以處理嗎"},{"start":64.289,"end":84.466,"text":"謝偉 這個目前的法規是不行但是目前我們也了解到這個狀況有在了解說看怎麼樣來修改法規然後讓這些業者可以多做這些工作對 因為現在就面臨這個問題我相信署長針對這一部分很多業者也反映了鋼筋它拆解下來這麼長"},{"start":86.22,"end":105.917,"text":"他要怎麼載他要怎麼去運送那最後你還是要去採檢那回收業者採檢完之後他再去處理這樣子他也好運輸而且你重點他如果沒有採檢下來他到那個爐也是沒有辦法去熔煉對不對那針對這部分而且"},{"start":108.499,"end":122.266,"text":"奇怪的是好像我們中央的認定標準也不一有些縣市允許有些縣市不允許會開發所以我覺得這中央這個標準根本沒有說明清楚是不是這樣"},{"start":124.307,"end":144.999,"text":"因為過去像這些採檢室比較接種人力現在大部分都是用接種機器這個機器的形態就跟過去不同所以跟現在法規有些比較寫得不清楚的地方我們在前陣子就了解到這個情形有跟業者來座談也到現場去把它的每一種樣態弄清楚"},{"start":145.399,"end":171.353,"text":"那我們現在有兩個方案就是去修公告那這個修正的方式呢最近已經邀請要邀請環保局還有業者來討論要怎麼樣來修改那進行意見交換那等要收集他的意見我們就可以進行一個法規的調整對啊你看他現在工人在現場用洋語訣去把它截短這樣又可以可是反而用油壓機去把它剪短又說不行"},{"start":172.455,"end":186.614,"text":"同樣是物理的行為這個是不是難怪一般業者無所適從而且真的據我們了解他們現在都搞不清楚有些限制法有些限制不處理所以你這部分是要修改法規嗎還是怎麼樣"},{"start":187.855,"end":214.813,"text":"對這個地方因為執行的是地方環保機關那我們現在等於是了解到這樣的狀況那也會跟這個地方環保機關來溝通然後我們覺得溝通完了之後大概四月中的左右會溝通然後完了之後接下來就可能可以啟動法規修改的程序那這大概要多久如果是這個五月開始來進行法規那通常法規的程序大概要三個月就是要預告然後要延商"},{"start":216.38,"end":244.567,"text":"好那這個我希望是要盡快啦因為這已經造成我們基層業者無所適從啊對啊這個中央這個標準認定就不一而且確實如果照你們中央這樣根本就是讓他們完全沒有辦法達到運送儲存的問題而且最後他到到爐要去熔煉的時候他還是要去採檢啊所以與其這樣為什麼不一樣物理的行為前面採檢完"},{"start":246.387,"end":268.55,"text":"讓它好運輸到爐去溶解的時候馬上就可以去做不然這運送的過程中你要多長的車去載而且在路上造成更多我們用路人的安全的問題好這部分我相信署長應該也很了解啦可是因為業者一直認為說這個事情也反映那麼久沒有看到一個具體的作為"},{"start":270.191,"end":281.374,"text":"那這部分也希望部長居然已經這個問題已經發生那大家已經知道這問題確實去需要去修正希望能夠盡快來辦理沒問題謝謝委員好那我們再討論一下現在因為中東戰爭的問題也更加凸顯"},{"start":290.357,"end":313.409,"text":"我們關鍵原物料跟關鍵戰略金屬那其實在這部分本席在年前的時候在立法院有成立我們關鍵原物料與循環經濟促進聯盟那在上週我們未還委員會也特別到屏東去考察走訪這業者目的也是希望針對現在世界各國"},{"start":314.509,"end":326.323,"text":"對於我們關鍵原物料缺乏的問題也希望訂定相關的政策那之前我有詢問過部長你說有做初步的盤點那目前這部分都盤點好了嗎目前有兩個部分"},{"start":329.366,"end":351.193,"text":"一個是稀土的提煉是由經濟部在負責我們是負責內循環的一個部分所以這個部分我們大概有找了十幾家業者也了解他們的動態比較重要的是說未來的需求在哪裡例如說誰需要這個關鍵的貴氣金屬這個部分我們希望能夠了解的更多所以這個部分還正在進行當中"},{"start":352.293,"end":374.305,"text":"好那針對這部分喔其實我們盤點出來我相信部長應該也了解啦我們希望因為其實他這個金屬我們成立關鍵原物料四大國家隊那這個四個金屬我們單一金屬能源金屬基礎金屬還包含這個系統可是他每個金屬裡面即使又包含了"},{"start":374.865,"end":399.055,"text":"很多的金屬像我們能源金屬裡面有鋰有鋪有鎳那其實範圍非常非常的廣那我們現在也希望部長針對盤點出來部分你不可能每樣去做是不是應該針對有些重要的部分去聚焦像有些我們回收之後我們根本沒有技術可以去做加工"},{"start":399.795,"end":421.634,"text":"那可是台灣有些是有技術可以做加工的但是因為他量太少所以成本太高所以這部分是不是部長有別的方法去怎麼樣的去處理讓我們台灣本身有技術可以做加工的部分怎麼樣子讓他去增加他的原料降低他的成本才有辦法去做"},{"start":422.954,"end":450.121,"text":"這個部分這四大金屬裡面有的台灣是很強但是有的是需要國際的技術合作甚至我們還要考慮到他會不會有一些污染的一個情況所以這個狀況不一樣那我們現在有一個做法是我們也跟我們友好的國家有在洽談這個相關合作的一個細節還有包含了整個量能因為其實我們如果押寶某一個金屬其實在全世界的這個兩個供應鏈電體系的話另外一邊就會故意把這個價錢"},{"start":451.101,"end":470.531,"text":"拉下來就會造成整個產業的崩盤所以我們也在密切注意等於是說一個產業鏈的這個形成跨國的合作這個是必要的不然的話這個產業在台灣都是非常辛苦的所以目前的我們的確內部的在盤點他的量能他的技術還有我們的需求甚至還有國際供應鏈的問題現在正在進行當中"},{"start":471.451,"end":491.901,"text":"對啊所以剛才講說我們現在已經初步盤點之後那現在我說因為中東戰爭的影響特別又凸顯了這一方面問題因為各國對於稀土貴稀金屬這些出口都有嚴格的限制也導致現在這些原物料的成本相對的提高但是也確實我們尤其我們本身"},{"start":494.722,"end":519.746,"text":"臺灣自己本身針對這部分的需求也是非常非常的大我相信像我們循環署也跟我們經濟部產發署應該都有開會討論這些循環經濟這些原物料部分應該都有去討論過那像部長剛剛講當然你說有些原物料可能有污染的問題所以藉由這些你盤點之後所以我們說應該去做一些篩檢篩檢出來之後哪些"},{"start":523.347,"end":538.561,"text":"是我們有技術可以加工而且非常重要是不是找一些國家來進口來進口之後我們原物料這些量大之後成本就自然降低所以應該針對這部分應該部長應該是不是"},{"start":541.563,"end":565.873,"text":"這部分應該要好好的來規劃一下我們現在正在進行當中不過因為如果進口國外的電子廢棄物的話或是相關廢棄物的話其實還是有環保法規的共識的一個問題這個需要再溝通我們也要評估會不會對台灣的環境我們的廢棄物處理事業廢棄物都有一點困難的情況下能不能容許的更多這個都需要整體評估所以這些事情我們都同步在進行當中"},{"start":566.513,"end":581.823,"text":"那你有沒有預估大概要多久的時間怎麼去研擬有哪些國家的是可以開放讓他再循環利用這些再生料進口到我們這邊來然後讓我們這些業者有技術然後又能夠進這些"},{"start":583.504,"end":607.598,"text":"原物料之後讓他成本來降低來增加我們國防戰略金屬謝偉 因為這個其實這些的貴心金屬的公司並不是很多就集中在某些然後他的這個也有一些商業機密的問題所以我們要統計這個資料的時候都非常的謹慎小心那我們當然是希望業者跟我們說的多一點點我們可以掌握多一點點但是有些業者他有他的考量"},{"start":608.118,"end":637.402,"text":"所以我們如何能夠在幫助這個產業能夠順利的發展還需要一點點時間因為目前這個整個產業的結構我們需要跟經濟部密切的合作才能夠在內循環或在稀土裡面因為有些東西是稀土可以處理有些東西是內循環可以處理這兩邊如何做好一個融合還要跨部會再開會那我們內部已經開過幾次的會議還要再往前推進所以這個未來我們會跟經濟部有一個平台都在討論這個事情那我們是希望說是不是"},{"start":637.922,"end":659.394,"text":"我們是一季一季來看這樣的一個推動的速度啦那業者的聲音我們也會定期的掌握但是恐怕沒有辦法那麼快因為這個東西也要看國際局勢的一個演變對啊所以我說本來這個AI產業對於我們這些貴稀金屬大家各國都已經非常重視剛好現在因為中東戰爭又更加的凸顯這一方面問題"},{"start":660.274,"end":674.27,"text":"所以我們本身台灣這個產業這些金屬對我們來講都是非常重要而且也可以說是世界各國國防戰略非常重要的一些關鍵原物料那所以也希望我們"},{"start":675.431,"end":699.892,"text":"環境部針對這一部分也要更加的來重視而且居然我們已經有初步盤點那現在也有很多業者提出來說我們是有這個技術的只是真的成本太高所以希望我們環境部能夠礙於我們業者所提出的還有針對我們國家這些戰略關鍵物料部分我們好好的不單來盤點一下"},{"start":701.789,"end":718.57,"text":"然後怎麼樣子來評估怎麼去到其他的友好國家來進這些原物料讓我們的成本降低然後我們有技術來去加工好 謝謝我們正在進行當中好 那這部分也請部長盡快來處理OK 好 謝謝沒問題 謝謝好 謝謝圖權及委員發言人"}]}},{"id":"168273","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168273","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/70d8fc05dcd8abb0191a3adf291c3b422d46cf68b7d09b753efd812baa63ee58dff3bbbc96e0e24c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"丁學忠","委員發言時間":"11:09:50 - 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面並沒有那個儲戶證明這些的文件這一張是什麼那個是登記調查表"},{"start":417.873,"end":437.553,"text":"那我們審定的時候,因為他要講規定要...你沒有根據調查表去審定,所以李貞秀女士她提出她有儲戶的證明是在2025年也就是你剛講的,114年她在112年的時候簽的,還是她沒有簽名請全委會提供這一張證明出來如果她在"},{"start":442.029,"end":462.698,"text":"2023年參與民眾黨登記的時候,他就沒有簽名,或者是他也沒有儲戶他儲戶是2025年才交出來的,他也是詐騙民眾黨、詐騙中選會這樣是合法的立法委員嗎?時序還是要搞清楚,所以我上次就說"},{"start":464.059,"end":471.143,"text":"中華民國公職這個登記調查表比要去戶政事務所結婚還要寬鬆"},{"start":473.203,"end":496.913,"text":"口口聲聲說你已經離婚了,去到戶政事務所就被砍了啦但是你在選委會還是沒有檢查出來啦所以我們還是根據這一些國籍法或者是這個儲戶我們都認為他不具有中華民國立法委員的合法的身份所以包含在委員會裡面做過所有的紀錄未來都會變成事實"},{"start":498.934,"end":510.156,"text":"我也極力主張它不能變成事實所以包含在會議紀錄的確認我都主張行政院尊重行政院可以不必尋答李貞秀女士的發言謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168271","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168271","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/70d8fc05dcd8abb0a0e043405b8b3f33a7afadf2dd1952ec3efd812baa63ee58ff2541df1b7df3cd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"11:55:50 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那是不是有請經濟部鞏部長跟中油的方董事長好 請鞏部長跟方董事長蔡衍部長好部長 那美伊的這個衝突那赫默茲海峽遭到封鎖"},{"start":29.005,"end":44.606,"text":"那這個封鎖也是瞬息萬變因為從昨天川普跟這個伊朗的一個對話那看起來赫默茲海峽可能會在有條件的部分之下開放但是我們現在還是先因應未來因為赫默茲海峽被封鎖後"},{"start":45.327,"end":65.375,"text":"那伊朗也對外的去說他們下一個會去考慮去封鎖曼德海峽雖然這不在伊朗的領土但是他們有可能會不知道怎樣去做如果曼德海峽也被封鎖的話那我們知道因為我們從第一個海峽被封鎖我們已經把46%的這一個採購原油的採購那都把它轉到了從鴻海出口"},{"start":74.258,"end":80.163,"text":"那如果鴻海這一個出口的也被封鎖之後那對台灣的影響會怎樣那這個經濟部跟中友有針對這樣的一個沙盤演練嗎"},{"start":87.602,"end":109.869,"text":"是 說明一下 是有關原油的部分萬一這兩個地方都封鎖了那我們採購的地區我們目前已經在接洽在西非地區這個油源那麼另外在東南亞這邊譬如說澳洲這邊 美國這邊有接洽 有去做接洽那接洽有可能補得上嗎"},{"start":110.889,"end":128.12,"text":"當然我們做各種努力的嘗試對 因為還沒有發生 只是我想要告訴你看起來這件事並沒有辦法完全被排除所以你們一定要做最壞的一個打算好 那第二個就是說因應昨天的一個狀況那如果如同川普所說的 他跟伊朗現在談判兩個禮拜那這兩個禮拜有條件的開放赫姆茲海峽"},{"start":133.143,"end":142.133,"text":"那開放赫姆茲海峽這兩個禮拜我們可以對我們的原油或者是我們的天然氣的一個調度有怎樣的實質上兩個禮拜內我們可以馬上可以馬上獲得的一些補救嗎"},{"start":149.84,"end":177.022,"text":"目前中油公司在波斯灣裡面有一艘原油輪已經裝滿了但是出不來假設這兩週是可以出來的話那麼這一船大概有200萬桶的原油那麼對於國內的供應來講會有非常大的幫助所以這兩個禮拜內那如果這兩個禮拜假如整個大排長龍因為大家都想出來嘛擠得到嗎"},{"start":178.743,"end":192.399,"text":"你們有信心嗎 應該是照牌嘛照牌 如果說你認為的牌序我們擠得到那這一些原油這兩百萬桶進來可以舒緩很多我們現在國內面對的壓力是是是 沒有錯嗎 對沒有錯"},{"start":193.74,"end":210.889,"text":"好 那我們還是覺得因為每天瞬息萬變所以我剛剛講的兩個假設狀況一個是已經發生了所以這兩個禮拜我們要趕快積極的努力而且你們也許可以去嘗試看還有沒有可能在這一艘郵輪之外去爭取這兩個禮拜還有第二艘郵輪這應該是你們應該要去爭取的啊是不是好 那第二個我再請教一下經濟部長"},{"start":218.012,"end":245.693,"text":"因為現在好多業者在跟我反映除了我之前講的這個包材塑膠的一個問題現在看起來連這個瀝青因為瀝青咧它的原料還是來自於石油的後端產物嘛現在連瀝青感覺上也是一個不足那這個瀝青的供應不足造成很多工程單位他們現在沒有辦法去去實踐 是做他們的工程所以很多"},{"start":246.514,"end":257.356,"text":"我們公共部門的公共建設類因此會延宕那這件事情看起來部長如果在我們今天部長有可能在這件事情上去做怎樣的紓緩嗎"},{"start":259.242,"end":280.757,"text":"因為現在中國公司現在存貨還有大概2.3萬噸那如果再加上原來的台塑的這個存貨1.9萬噸現在總共還有4.2萬噸那如果剛剛提到的這個油的部分那一船可以過來的話那因為中東的石油是比較可以有力清的啦那那個又可以增加"},{"start":281.297,"end":308.784,"text":"所以本來的部分預估都可以到五月底啊如果那個船又進來的話因為你本來可以預估嘛如果那個船再進來所以這樣就一定要去大家的做店家跟親友的人去講啊因為他們不能動他們的腿嘛他們現在動他們的腿下游的這一些工程單位沒辦法施工然後你知道我們整個國家的很多建設會因此會受到嚴當會受到很大的影響這部分我覺得經濟部我們應該好好來面對這個問題好不好好的"},{"start":310.745,"end":314.887,"text":"好不好好那周遊可以請先回我是不是有請這個台電的董事長董事長你也知道說我長期都很關心我們店鋪我們店鋪我們台電的變電所變電站的一個遷移的一個問題因為畢竟他在鋪子的市中心是那我們"},{"start":339,"end":365.158,"text":"為了這個遷移我們做了好多努力包括在其他的外圍去蓋新的變電站來未來可以取代鋪子的變電站那我們知道在上個月也在董事長你的努力之下我們馬朝後的變電站也已經正式動土了所以看會不會進行那我現在想要很明確的去了解因為我們店鋪住的大家很期待就是這個變電站差不多三十年可以完成遷移"},{"start":369.46,"end":390.231,"text":"那個跟委員報告就是我們現在加速在蓋馬車後的便利商店如果我們可以找到其他的電源轉工我們就會馬上來進行那他其實他能夠停下來的最重要的關鍵是其他的便利商店蓋好具體的時間我會後給你一個具體的報告好不好你有花具體的時間啦我希望可以"},{"start":390.811,"end":406.881,"text":"至少進度沒有拖延到啦都還在你們當時候承諾萬的這個時間是沒錯都還在時間內所以我們希望就是變件站我們現在新的在興建嘛包括在貴色的貴色的在興建中在碼頭後的已經凍土了"},{"start":410.523,"end":423.852,"text":"所以都是在進度裡面嘛對 跟委員報告 只要地方支持的我們一定都會把握進度把他做好我們地方大家都有在倒下我們希望這個變電站地方是需要所以地方還是會盡量去去圓滿這一些工程的一個施作不然呢 台灣說那裡比較不適合要算的希望這個進度也是要倒筋的這樣好不好"},{"start":436.621,"end":444.946,"text":"好好那個我們可以就可以加快速度的我們都盡量再加快只要地方支持我們都會儘快好感謝兩組電話謝謝部長"}]}},{"id":"168270","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168270","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/70d8fc05dcd8abb0842b783d15990c5f1607b63c45e41aa03efd812baa63ee582cf89a319f4586af5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"11:54:42 - 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因為我們對於中共對台的一個滲透的手法樣態那有不定期的對外發布一些報告來讓社會大眾更了解相關的狀況能夠提高警覺那就個案的部分就國安案件大概都是我們的國安情報系統來發動"},{"start":93.092,"end":111.811,"text":"立案的那由市政之後再交給檢方來進行偵辦的那委員剛剛所提到這個例子也不例外所以那整個過程當中都有在注意一些發展的網絡以及中共所定特定的對象還有他的一些金流人流發展的一個脈絡這部分我們都有掌握那"},{"start":112.872,"end":137.996,"text":"凸顯了幾個問題啦那第一個就是說我就說這個中共的這個統戰的模式是伸到這個政黨裡面來那現在就是說看政黨怎麼去做處理嘛因為不是只有民眾黨他可能也到國民黨也有可能到民進黨那就看各個政黨怎麼去配合這個目前的這個不論是反滲透法或是國安法來做處理嘛那就這部分來講徐崔先生這部分來講那您認為目前"},{"start":139.382,"end":141.383,"text":"這個中共他的這個統戰的這個這隻手伸到政黨裡面的情況嚴不嚴重有這樣的狀況那嚴重嗎"},{"start":152.952,"end":176.906,"text":"因為它有涉及到一些不同的案子啦那這個案子因為最近才被起訴引起社會的關注那確實中共接觸的對象有特定的族群那也有特定的政治團體那他們都會部署相關的一個人脈的網絡來進行接觸那也透過一些兩岸的交流那加強一些相關的一個互動那發揮一些影響力"},{"start":177.907,"end":204.652,"text":"那另外一個就是說他所接觸的對象比如說像孫憲或是楊文濤那他們也常常來就利用各種名義來到台灣來那這個是我們國安單位是在起訴這個就是說大概是哪個時候知道說他們其實已經在台灣跑跑走一段時間因為這個時間很長那我們處理這些案件的時間也非常的長我也可以跟委員這樣講"},{"start":205.915,"end":228.429,"text":"所以其實也都有做掌握就對了 就我們來看啦 因為我們不知道說你們知道的時間有多長但是我們認為說 那這麼長的時間裡面 那到底我們國內的 不論是國安局 調查局或是我們刑事局這方面 警政署這方面 知不知道這些人的行蹤 或是說這些人來台灣做什麼"},{"start":230.075,"end":258.111,"text":"檢方能夠有這些起訴的相關的事證這是經過長期的部署才有這樣的結果那我只能跟委員說明的是時間非常的長 經過好幾年經過好幾年 對而且相關的人員我剛剛在跟林楚英委員做說明那他們在進來之後我們都有我們相關的部署那才能夠辦法有一個比較完整的資訊那讓違法的要件比較能夠成立那送到檢方正辦的時候才比較能夠彙整相關的一個事證來進行必要的法條的進行"},{"start":258.291,"end":267.799,"text":"因為這對於台灣人來講就覺得說那我們希望說政府是知道這些事情而且有在採取行動的那如果按照局長這樣講其實就是說整個"},{"start":269.495,"end":291.398,"text":"這個部件的這個時間當然當然因為這是我們在我們的義務報告特別有提到的我們國安情報單位檢調單位軍中保防單位我們是有一個完整的系統在處理這些共諜案的就是說當然不至於是說我們故意要這個放長線釣大魚但是我們的確有知道說他們在台灣的行動包含說這個見了誰做什麼樣的事情"},{"start":292.339,"end":316.38,"text":"這些市政不會是來一次入境之後就收集到了委員只要一看起訴書那是非常漫長的時間今年累月的累積的一些市政的狀況好那最後一個問題就是年底的這個大選這個三合一的選舉那這個在國安九合一對啊有的我們是三合一有的是九合一那國安局這邊"},{"start":317.407,"end":336.502,"text":"對於這個中共他們要利用這一個這次年底的選舉他們有可能會介入一定會介入不是有可能然後介入的模式也很多那有大概做了哪一些可以公開講的東西嗎這部分我們因為在今年的二月我們區裡面就成立一個針對今年九合一選舉的一個查查的專案機制"},{"start":337.563,"end":360.535,"text":"那啟動這樣的機制的話我們會針對國安情報機關來做必要的任務分工那今天國安情報機關的首長也幾乎都在現場那幾個重點的工作第一個是包括有沒有一些偽異常的金流或是進行一些線上博弈或一些地下賭盤的操作來借選那另外也包括到有沒有一些背景比較異常的人士入境到台灣來"},{"start":361.135,"end":389.823,"text":"那這部分跟移民署也都有相關的專欄來做聯審的機制那進來之後假如有偽異常的狀況的話那我們也會有的假如是違法的話就會立刻驅逐出境那有的是會列出為下次要來台灣的一個禁止的一個名單那另外可能在借權過程當中我們也特別著重到認知作戰爭議訊息的操作那這部分我們最近才啟動一個機制一個部分是透過平台業者去下架下架他有問題的貼文"},{"start":390.743,"end":419.125,"text":"那另外一部分我們機制剛成立是我們有去封鎖境外的IP它只要傳散正義訊息的話我們直接把境外IP封鎖掉那這是最近才成立的機制那法規部分經過幾個月的討論也都非常的晚備那再來就是要注意到有沒有一些包括槍械或是黑道的活動那會去干擾到選舉的一個正常的進行那這部分是跟警政署張署長這邊我們都有討論都有一個專案在處理所以就"},{"start":424.286,"end":441.256,"text":"所以我們必須要透過相關的一個專案動員我們的整個國安情治機關可能我們這一場的國安情治機關人員加起來應該不下十幾萬人我們會動用我們的網絡來防止中共對台的借權活動所以這個美政局那中國一定會借權活動?一定會的我正一直在關心那我也希望說就是可以公開講的就讓大家知道那有些人應該要做的"},{"start":451.161,"end":453.307,"text":"好,好,好,謝謝我的提醒喔,謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168269","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168269","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/70d8fc05dcd8abb061153bb80e99812cb9b76447cfe948db3efd812baa63ee584e59da5588efa9b45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"11:52:41 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就這一句呢要逐步進到跟世界來接軌所以本期我們繼續討論那面對了AI時代的來臨很多的企業大概都陷入在焦慮當中我到底該不該導入AI那我要怎麼樣去評估這個風險中小企業裡頭呢是我們台灣非常非常重要的經濟命脈跟根基"},{"start":162.677,"end":181.926,"text":"所以當個人到企業都在擁抱AI的時代每個人都在學習相關的應用的技能學校也在教學生怎麼去做但是我們的企業導入AI的速度似乎它的速度是落後的"},{"start":184.769,"end":198.866,"text":"這個主委本席要讚許你一句話因為你在接受媒體專訪的時候你曾經提到大家以為這個AI新十大建設是為了AI"},{"start":199.767,"end":227.377,"text":"其实我们更想要帮助台湾的传统产业这一句话我给你赞许因为在中部地区我们整个传统产业的根基几乎90%以上都在我们的中部地区尤其在台中不管是我们的手工具机械工具机零组件我们的扣件我们的木工机我们的脚踏车等等等都是在我们的中部地区也为国家"},{"start":228.677,"end":245.549,"text":"跟世界去接軌也幫助了國家很多的貢獻跟就業率所以你講的這一句話本席要請教國科會你未來你現在要怎麼樣協助我們的中小企業讓AI可以進入到傳統產業的這個領域 請做說明"},{"start":247.771,"end":261.607,"text":"我們現在正跟經濟部在合作希望協助我們的設備業者材料業者能夠進到我們高科技的供應鏈不是只進到傳統產業的供應鏈高科技的供應鏈因為台灣的高科技現在很強"},{"start":262.708,"end":288.246,"text":"那高科技需要非常強大的這個設備跟材料的業者我們正在協助協助他們導入AI導入AI可以跟高科技產業的需求端很緊密的結合在一起不需要再說增加大量人力才有辦法去拓展他的市場這一點我們會努力在進行AI端的工具這非常的重要像新加坡等很多的其他國家由政府"},{"start":288.866,"end":310.631,"text":"去做一個規範這個AI的工具讓所有的產業它可以節省八成以上的這個成本本期要跟你討論的就是站在你國會的立場因為我長期在經濟委員會我們特別也跟經濟部不管在硬體的部分在傳統產業的部分在ESG的這個部分我們全部導入"},{"start":311.551,"end":340.512,"text":"这也就是在我们传统产业我要向所有的业者给予最高的敬意跟肯定跟感谢他们努力的在做但是只有他们个人绝对是达不到必须要政府全力的来协助经济部努力在做这一块我本行希望在您说的这句话我给你赞许不是只有是为了AI而是更想帮助的是台湾的传统产业我们这句话一定要落实到"},{"start":341.818,"end":363.023,"text":"對不對是我們就是往這個方向在走所以經濟部跟國會是在合作我們編預算所以本席剛剛也特別說到其他的國家有怎麼樣的 AI 工具去協助他們節省他們的這個成本這一個部分我也希望盡快可以看到成效這是一個很重要的最後一個議題我們人力的問題AI 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謝謝主席 本席有請劉部長麻煩部長部長 本席就直接從你們內政部的報告開始來問你們有提到反對放寬緩刑參選的限制"},{"start":23.786,"end":38.351,"text":"那理由是端正罪行觀念貫徹清廉參選那所以本席要先問一個最基本的問題就是說如果一個人犯的是輕罪檢察官認為他有悔意不需要處罰給予他還起訴請問他可不可以參選"},{"start":43.841,"end":67.034,"text":"緩起訴跟緩刑不一樣對啊我現在就先問緩起訴嘛緩起訴可以吧報告委員這個部分因為我們在座有法律專家包括法務部跟司法院你可不可以請教他們會比較好因為緩起訴跟緩刑啊基本上也就是法官或者是起訴的檢察官因為我們在討論選罷法嘛我知道我知道我們的立場您剛說您看過書面資料了嘛所以我們的立場非常的清楚所以我所以你是照我的問題問嗎回答嘛緩起訴跟緩刑確實是不一樣啦"},{"start":72.045,"end":92.427,"text":"沒有 我沒有問一不一樣 我說他是這個 一個人如果他這個司法機關給他緩起訴 那他可不可以參選嗎可以嘛 對不對 答案是可以所以我還沒談到緩刑 你不用那麼急嘛緩起訴可不可以參選"},{"start":95.578,"end":120.803,"text":"你是選政機關吧你內政部目前你是選政機關緩起訴所以你看緩起訴可以參選啊,站在你們的立場是可以的,你答不出來我是不是請我們民政司長跟您回應一下好不好因為我的意見跟他相左,我想民政司長他會比較有實務經驗"},{"start":123.018,"end":144.227,"text":"不是 部長你要清楚知道還期數 一個人被還期數他有沒有參選資格嘛 部長你回答我這問題 我本席請教您啊可以有參選資格 但是我剛有提到說第一個我們並不因人設事 還有就是一定要完全三審定讞才算對嘛 對嘛 所以還期數的話有參選資格嘛"},{"start":147.809,"end":163.58,"text":"對 有參選那如果同樣是輕罪這個案件進入到法院法官審理後一樣認為他不需要入監不需要實際執行刑罰那給予他緩刑那請問他可不可以參選"},{"start":165.558,"end":194.292,"text":"依照現行的規定是不可以對依照現行規定是不行的所以這個就提到一個問題的核心了我們同樣是不用入監服刑的輕罪但是呢也同樣是司法機關認定的無需實體的刑罰但是因為這個程序不同一個是檢察官給他緩起訴他可以參選法院法官給他緩刑"},{"start":195.132,"end":215.198,"text":"他不能參選所以這個部分我們想知道他的正當性在哪裡在之前審查的時候因為考慮到緩刑他的罪行還是存在所以因為他罪行還是存在緩刑的期間還沒過的話但是他很輕很輕輕到可能去掃地啊去服務老人或罰個錢這樣"},{"start":216.778,"end":229.029,"text":"那因為基本上他有法律規定如果判刑確定他的行企業還在這個還沒有過期的這種情況應該是不得參選也就是說這依據什麼樣這是個人認定吧不是 法律是這樣規定法律有規定"},{"start":237.557,"end":261.533,"text":"他有罪在身,只要被判定有罪,他就不能參選,哪一條?法律哪一條有這樣規定?現在依照現行的規定,如果是判決所以我們現在在討論嘛,選罷法在討論嘛是在判決有罪確定的這種情況如果是有指鑼公權,這些也都不可以參選"},{"start":262.975,"end":268.148,"text":"所以我們現在就講他緩刑嗎緩刑期間不能參選這個標準感覺上"},{"start":272.511,"end":293.747,"text":"這個好像沒有一致的標準因為你們講貫徹清廉參選 那他緩刑期過了他也曾經有這個罪 他還是可以參選的嘛對 所以緩刑期間他的刑度還是在對 但是很輕微很輕微除非他已經過了緩刑的期間 那依照現行的規定"},{"start":294.167,"end":304.575,"text":"你過了緩刑的期間當然就可以參選但是你的這個刑期還沒有過緩刑期間還沒過的話他如果再犯那又有"},{"start":306.002,"end":332.849,"text":"這個要再度這個服刑的這種情況所以這個部分從這個參政的一個立場青年參政的立場希望說他完全那個罪行都沒有的這種情況來參政所以現在本席要問的就是說他一個人他可以在社會上生活他也可以就像正常人一樣工作納稅服務社會可是你們卻"},{"start":335.021,"end":362.463,"text":"這個我們現在的法條就認為他不可以參政這個就不合理因為法官都認為他的情節是非常非常輕微的可能有各種複雜的因素才造成這樣那他已經像正常人在社會上工作納稅服務社會做所有事跟正常人都一樣但是我們現在的這個規定是不行的"},{"start":362.85,"end":372.85,"text":"所以這一塊的限制的正當性在哪裡法院的判決或許有它的考量但這個有關參政的部分"},{"start":373.43,"end":391.987,"text":"那全民的期待應該是青年的參政所以我剛剛已經講了 青年的參政 那他行期過了對 他行期過了他還是可以參政嘛所以從頭到尾就是在緩行期間 其實他也無異於常人所以就變成你們等於是"},{"start":395.748,"end":423.375,"text":"做了一個不當的連結有一點過度限制他的基本權因為他的刑度還是在那因為這個緩刑有點是觀察期的這個概念所以你們認為在觀察期的期間已經過了他完全沒有問題當然可以參選現在這樣子啦我們也有一些人認為就是說所謂的排黑條款他是在對付重大的犯罪"},{"start":424.235,"end":452.404,"text":"他不是在對付那些他已經繳罰款然後現在在掃地服役服社會勞動的這種人所以這一塊當然這個可能也會進入討論那只是在質詢的時候本席特別提最後本席也要請教就是說那我們現在討論的這些譬如說他可不可以登記參選那是不是要剝奪他的參政權他的資格如何設計請教一下部長"},{"start":452.944,"end":454.108,"text":"這個是選務還選政 這個屬於選務還是選政我是請教部長 不好意思 部長"},{"start":461.081,"end":490.002,"text":"選政的部分大概是政策面啦那選務的話就在執行層面上面有關於要不要剝奪他的這個被選舉權的部分是屬於選政但是就是說他自己要去登記參選的時候要提供什麼樣的資料來確定他有沒有參選資格是選務那現在本席最重要要請教部長我們台灣的這個選務跟選政沒有合一你的看法"},{"start":491.53,"end":503.78,"text":"選務選政照理他應該合一但現在沒有現在你選政都在你內政部選務在中選會其實所以中選會他就不是一個獨立的一個機關一個獨立的選務選政合一的機關對此部長你怎麼看"},{"start":509.459,"end":527.19,"text":"我不清楚就是選務跟選政沒有合一產生什麼樣的弊端可以請這個委員明確指示方向那我們才能夠針對這個來因為選務選政合一已經多年來都是這樣子的執行選務選政沒有合一多年來都是這樣執行選務選政分開來多年來都是這樣執行所以我們一直在想說為什麼選務選政不能合一這個問題啊"},{"start":538.82,"end":551.804,"text":"那我也不清楚那個委員所提案說要選政選務合一他的優點在什麼地方我跟委員報告一下一條龍啊你看整個的選務是中選會辦那選政他應該要有獨立的整個的判斷各方面"},{"start":555.325,"end":573.857,"text":"中選會現在在獨立判斷啊因為中選會的委員是大院通過的啊中選會能夠通過的這些部分我們內政部沒有辦法影響到但是選政的很多決策內政部他甚至講很多事情他還要報請內政部那都還是內政部在掌握啊"},{"start":575.287,"end":591.255,"text":"有啦那個報告委員你現在講的可能是地方政府吧因為地方政府的選委會它幾乎都是有選舉的時候才會成立真正是屬於中選會的一個全職的人員比較少中選會現在也沒有任何選舉制度的權利那本席請教你現在中選會它有沒有任何針對選舉制度的權利"},{"start":597.128,"end":608.462,"text":"沒有啊 這個他可以提出說這個整個都在內政部手中所以這一塊本席今天質詢主要就是提出來其實這一塊我們大家也應該要來正視選務跟選政應該要合一"},{"start":613.134,"end":628.884,"text":"好 時間到了我們這個內政部應該很清楚現在選政還有整個選舉制度都你們在掌握但是中選會它就是選務而已它就只有選務這一塊有機會其實選務選政要合一好 OK 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168267","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168267","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/70d8fc05dcd8abb0ca7e21eddcd1f73a2d46cf68b7d09b753efd812baa63ee5882b6391befdefecc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳琪銘","委員發言時間":"11:40:42 - 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麻煩部長部長 部長 針對公職人員選舉罷免法今天大家都在討論尤其我們針對我們這個選罷法第26條的設計本來是重大犯罪者在立法院過去的條文應該都是沒什麼問題"},{"start":28.075,"end":46.648,"text":"但是他們今天我所聽到我們各位委員所講的就是重罪的話未達十年以上或是一顆滑金者都可以參選那另一方面只被判反省的不論是重刑罪還是輕刑罪一律都不得參選"},{"start":47.99,"end":63.184,"text":"這是一個比例原則啦這本席還是希望我們內政部今天所提的大家都謹慎的來研究因為有的是清醒的罪行罪者"},{"start":63.744,"end":92.768,"text":"那判反刑又不能參選這對當事者也是有不公平的地方但是重刑犯我們當然是危害到國家還是重大的不管是槍砲還是毒藥這一種都是我們內委重刑的這個本席都是非常的支持我們過去一貫我們所修出來過去的修改的條文但是本席是非常支持"},{"start":93.388,"end":117.556,"text":"那所以針對這一個問題本席還是尊重我們內政部那針對我們那個20歲比例下降到18歲這個本席是非常支持因為我們過去的選辦法都是18歲就可以來進行投票那未來我們公職人員的選舉"},{"start":119.257,"end":124.411,"text":"我也希望我本席支持下降到18歲請問部長是否支持"},{"start":127.932,"end":155.226,"text":"感謝委員對於18歲公民權的這個支持那我剛有提到這個憲法學者大概有兩派那我們很希望這兩派的憲法學者可以在公開的場合裡面來做比較好的這個論辯那如果說符合這個大院也就是立法院在完備所有的修憲程序以及所有的法治上面的話我們當然是很樂觀來看待這個18歲公民權的部分因為你18歲"},{"start":158.699,"end":177.31,"text":"現在18歲 大家所接觸到 不管外面的資訊重重都是非常成熟所以下降到18歲 我認為這是破撤性所以本市也是支持一定要下降到18歲報告委員 我們都完全贊成"},{"start":178.171,"end":200.328,"text":"但是也如果說是急著要把它通過在選務上面會相當的倉促那像剛剛我們已經有跟幾位委員報告過現在18歲到20歲可以如果有下降的話大概公民的人數是41萬那41萬的話假設在年底的921選舉的話會不會直接造成非常大的衝擊"},{"start":201.629,"end":220.222,"text":"那也是另外需要考量的部分所以我是說第一個我們希望審慎的評估在合憲合法的狀況之下我們一定是樂觀其成因為過去我們的公投就是已經下修到18歲那過去的公投應該不會造成整個投票的混亂性"},{"start":221.142,"end":246.306,"text":"公投呢因為是屬於國家級的公投比較沒有戶籍的限制但是年底九合一選舉就有戶籍的限制你的戶籍不在那邊就不能選那邊的里長、議員、市長這個有一點在處理上面的還是會有一點這個行政上面的一個比較困難度因為九合一選舉真的是九張選票說不定還更多因為有原住民的部分"},{"start":246.866,"end":254.822,"text":"那所以這個再處理起來呢可能會有一些困擾但是無論怎麼樣就是我們都是尊重大院最後的決定好的好"},{"start":256.448,"end":281.017,"text":"那還有針對一點就是政治先進化裡面所規定的就是我們在選舉的時候大部分地方選舉跟區域性的選舉應該都是十月份十月的最高好像是十月吧那是不是這個比例因為他現在大家各黨都有出現的問題是不是這個政治先進化可以把他拉長"},{"start":283.109,"end":311.765,"text":"我是不是請民政事長跟您回應一下 好的報告委員現在政治獻金法的一個規定可以收政治獻金的情況是你參選人而且已經開立專庫經過監察院的許可而且在這個可以收受的期間之內如果他的初選參加初選人他是在這個可以收受的期間之內的話是可以收受政治獻金 目前"},{"start":312.746,"end":330.749,"text":"收受政治獻金的期間總統是一年 立法委員是十個月那縣市長 直轄市的縣市長 議員等等是八個月那鄉鎮市民代表村里長是四個月那大概總體的一個情況是這樣子"},{"start":331.189,"end":347.388,"text":"那如果拉長政治獻金的話可能會跟在任者他的職權上跟收受政治獻金是不是永混合的這種情況這個對於青年政治的一個部分可能要再做一個考慮"},{"start":348.51,"end":368.984,"text":"好的好的 本席提出都是看能不能延長讓他們參選人他們在初選的時候也可以來用政治獻金法因為這樣他整個金錢的管控也比較符合整個政治大家投入的"},{"start":371.38,"end":393.022,"text":"大家都尊重正常的程序來做這是本期的看法是 這個部分內政部會針對就是說收受政治獻金的期間因為有在任者也會參與選舉那因為在任者收受政治獻金跟他職權上的"},{"start":394.062,"end":401.129,"text":"這個會不會有衝突的這個部分可能還是必須要再做思考這部分我們會深深來做研議好的好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168266","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168266","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/70d8fc05dcd8abb065d296a2c41ddd292d46cf68b7d09b753efd812baa63ee58d4923c6205c677e65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳雪生","委員發言時間":"11:32:09 - 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?"},{"start":25.089,"end":44.879,"text":"國家重要私地對,私地是我們管,但是要有國家型的還有地方型的國家級的啊國家級的當然是既然列為國家重要私地當然是,國家公允署那我們馬祖有個國家重要私地,你有沒有聽說過不要說看啦,有沒有聽說過我不只聽說過,我去看過看過?看過,那你一年編的多少錢預算?"},{"start":49.841,"end":79.462,"text":"很抱歉,今天我沒有把他帶過來但是報告委員,我們今年預算也都沒過啊所以我編多少預算一點意義都沒有去年有沒有過?去年當然有過啊前年有沒有過?你關心一下好不好?他用了幾塊錢啊?那個重要失利我是很反對的我當現場的時候啊搞出一個重要失利然後變成國家重要失利"},{"start":80.049,"end":108.713,"text":"但你一毛錢都不花啊 那個叫什麼重要私地啊私地有的時候是為了保存而保存 倒是不是加了很多人工的建築我告訴你 是為了選舉啦選舉啊 結黨結派啦把他搞成一個重要私地我擺在肚子裡面我沒說出來啦現在已經多少年了你既然重要私地有個背在那邊國家重要私地你不要鬧笑話好不好"},{"start":110.031,"end":131.393,"text":"那你就把它弄好嘛好不好既然內政部當然部長不是你啊已經換了好幾任部長既然有這麼一個師弟在那邊你就把它弄好嘛你不然就把那個牌子拆掉既然不是就拆掉嘛你擺在那裡丟人現眼幹什麼公告有公告的程序啦如果要撤銷有撤銷的程序"},{"start":133.627,"end":161.816,"text":"這個東西是你們內政部搞出來的我們來檢討一下不是我搞出來的,是你們弄出來的你如果要它繼續存在的話,你就把它維護好好不好,你就維護好這是一個問題第二個問題就是馬祖目前有大陸的有一些人士啊判過刑期屆滿啊人求啦齁那麼沒錢也沒地方住你們把它丟到馬祖去"},{"start":165.148,"end":187.375,"text":"移民署在管的,移民署在處理的都讓馬主席準備要遣返怎麼遣返?爹不疼娘不愛你遣返沒辦法遣返,上一次遣返了一個回去然後陸委會想借用這個圓球的模式因為那是福建省那邊同意的"},{"start":188.291,"end":214.088,"text":"那他的入境出入境只一次一次一次那想說這四十幾個十幾個也有十幾個啦並讓你們一起走後來也不行那後來我聽說透過紅石智慧那現在政府跟對面都沒有功能了嘛等於嘛你們這四十幾個人球丟在馬祖他不會賺錢啊他沒錢啊那也沒地方住啊"},{"start":218.203,"end":243.736,"text":"那你說會發生什麼事?這社會問題了嘛是不是製造社會問題?我們觀光商業那麼多,那這些人在那邊在幹什麼?他沒錢啊第一個社會觀感不好第二個,也會出狀況啊那你為什麼不擺在金門?或者擺在澎湖也可以啊你好的丟在金門,不好的放在馬祖能不能把他們送到金門去好不好?您看部長"},{"start":247.742,"end":269.876,"text":"如果那個金門的民意代表同意的話我們也當然考慮之列但是我想我想我想你了解遣返機制那遣返機制不能夠操之在我所以事實上確實會有一些觀感上面的問題或是在處理上面的問題但是我們盡量把它維持好"},{"start":270.322,"end":285.054,"text":"不是部長,你把他放在馬祖是什麼意思,我真的搞不懂你欸等待遣返吃飯移民署,移民署出來沒來?沒有,今天只有處理選罷法,我們只有民政司的你移民署你要不要給他伙食費?"},{"start":287.424,"end":308.949,"text":"這些人吃什麼?他已經不是屬於延長收容的部分那我們是請外面的類似紅十字會或是民間團體如果你們移民署沒管的話,那我就回去把他們買個機票,我帶他們到金門去玩玩了以後把他們丟在金門,你看怎麼樣?"},{"start":310.729,"end":336.349,"text":"你是說從馬祖帶到金門去玩,然後把他丟在金門我就不管他了我所了解馬祖到金門沒有直飛的班機我有辦法啊,我飛到台灣再飛到金門啊委員我想我們嚴肅的面對這個問題如果他有衍生其他的社會或治安的問題的話,我們來協助處理衍生的時候已經來不及了,是不是"},{"start":337.498,"end":348.384,"text":"治安問題出現的時候已經來不及了我是說未雨綢繆你們睜大眼睛把這問題解決好不好你跟對面沒辦法去解決"},{"start":350.132,"end":368.624,"text":"我們可能會來考量,是不是有這個在延長收容的機制但是在延長收容的機制的話,還要會同幾個機關一起同意的時候才能處理我沒有意見,但是這些人你要處理嘛,對不對你不處理,你要我們怎麼處理?你要我去處理嗎?還是馬祖的縣長去處理嗎?跟對面去談嗎?也不能談啊,協議也不能簽啊,是不是"},{"start":379.604,"end":395.118,"text":"鄭麗媛主席去那邊,又去唱紅啊,又來啊所以反正都是不好的嘛我去跟對面聊兩天,聊兩句,縣長去跟他縣長沒講話,對面講話回來你們內政部也要他做筆錄,做了老半天誰敢去啊我覺得住在台灣也蠻恐怖的現在,我覺得很恐怖你不覺得嗎"},{"start":407.677,"end":429.575,"text":"你說大陸那邊人權不好,我們這裡人權也好不了哪裡去我覺得報告委員,不能同日而已,我們就是常備管轄的跨境鎮壓的對象常備管轄,我們已經跟大陸來往幾十年了我們有被統戰了嗎?有被幹什麼了嗎?我去統匪了嗎?沒有嘛是不是,但是你不要把每個人都當作賊一樣啊"},{"start":430.729,"end":452.003,"text":"是不是?我們相信你看去那麼多人,有沒有哪些人滯留大陸不回來的?沒有啊有報告委員,現在有些宗教團體去那邊確實被留置,到現在還沒回來人家說不准做法輪功,你要到那邊去練功那有什麼辦法?不是法輪功好啦好啦,我今天跟你講這個40幾個人球的問題,你去處理好不好?你那個失利的請他們回報一下好不好?"},{"start":457.574,"end":485.233,"text":"我要了解你們對勢力怎麼處理,好不好?報告委員,現在馬祖的勢力目前的狀況是嗎?我雖然反對,當然啦我雖然反對,但是我很關心啊你要,你就把它好好保管好你不要,你不要就把那個牌子給我打掉是不是?你總要有個方式嘛,你不能丟在那裡啊,好不好?我希望這個事情給我回報一下部長謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168296","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168296","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/70d8fc05dcd8abb0b5546e4c28cb39cd01ae777e4c72867e3efd812baa63ee58af1408e11982b4235ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"盧縣一","委員發言時間":"12:33:51 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針對我們現在中東局勢跟國際油漆跟塑膠原料的價格明顯上升那現在國內的那個PVC漲了64%HDP漲了40%那我想請問一下國內民生跟醫療塑化原料的缺口的狀況現在政府的因應措施是什麼然後現在目前確實啟動了試鏡的提前運作4月以西提升到7.9萬噸"},{"start":41.571,"end":59.457,"text":"5月到9萬噸也協調20家加工業只增產那麼現在這套調度的一個機制到底是在穩定整體的關鍵物資還是在優先就一次性塑膠的用品那我想知道醫療農業包採食品包採各自的缺口跟優先順序"},{"start":61.186,"end":82.243,"text":"好跟委員做一個說明那這一塊的話確實是一個因應國際的一個短期的措施所以我們是從上鬆下游的話先把整個那個供應鏈的供應量全把它做一個監控然後也看一下市場的那個需求所以我們後面有所謂的一個專線"},{"start":84.344,"end":113.784,"text":"還有包括那個網路看到有什麼樣的需求我們上面上游的話來確保他的供應是沒有一個問題的那我還是強調這個東西的話像一些包括醫材啦包材啦這一些可以確定到一些商業性的發展還有醫療的相關的話我們會來優先那當成有一些是民生消費必需的話我們也要來做一個確保你確實是不會缺料就對了"},{"start":114.664,"end":137.444,"text":"我們現在的話會來做我們因為經濟部已經推了這個評價專案我們會來確保這個民生供應是沒有問題的好謝謝副署長那先請衛福部我們江署長想知道說現在的洗身帶我們的點滴軟帶這些成本他現在如果壓不住成本的話怎麼辦"},{"start":139.057,"end":159.305,"text":"委員好就剛才的提到的確這次中東戰事之後民生相關的議題原料部分上升了許多那衛福部食藥署跟健保署我們共同協作之下我們建立了一個單一的平台接受通報因為目前的狀況是有8家的藥廠跟19家的醫材廠"},{"start":160.265,"end":187.362,"text":"其中8家藥廠我們其實都已經確定聯繫完成那目前供貨的情形呢持續由前端的我們這邊調查由食藥署後端的供貨包括包材廠以及我們的更上游的原料塑化原料由產發署這邊協助所以從雙方面來進行之下目前這整個的藥品的部分8家的都供應無虞那"},{"start":188.263,"end":213.017,"text":"另外的包括醫材廠的部分我們最近評估起來有19家中呢最急迫的其實醫材的廠是有兩家兩家它下游裡面其實有包含了有7家的整個的塑料供應商這7家塑料供應商他們說4月份目前的狀況比較吃緊所以我們立刻把相關的訊息其實轉給了產發署這邊的所以我們從兩方面雙署"},{"start":217.619,"end":243.751,"text":"經濟部跟衛福部雙處之邊的溝通各自下去把我們的訊息傳達到我們的醫材廠跟我們的藥品廠以及供料的廠部分從原料端供進來目前整個7家的一個供料說要供料是完整目前是無缺的其他還有一大部分是發現的是整體是有5月6月甚至年底他們很緊張所以目前都我們持續關注中我們所謂的200億健保準備金還能用到"},{"start":247.172,"end":275.357,"text":"目前呢其實健保署特別在昨天我們協同食藥署這邊共同去研議裡面相關的需要做調價的部分目前藥廠的部分提到藥品供應需要的成本增加有50家那醫材廠的部分也有數十家所以目前我們持續在針對每個個案去做一些討論那我們希望的是更源頭啦源頭端能夠補助之後"},{"start":275.937,"end":301.716,"text":"其實後端的部分調價就會比較不是那麼困難的去達成我們就會更直接的可以讓我們藥品跟醫材的供給能夠更為穩固醫生我看到醫療廢棄物大概是12.1萬噸有害失業廢棄物再利用率卻只有22.66%我想知道說像我們現在醫療廢棄物其實是很多是高品質的一些PPPC塑膠那有沒有可能再提升它的再利用率"},{"start":303.317,"end":322.943,"text":"跟委員做進一步的說明這部分我們跟環境部可以共同的去研擬它的在利用因為牽涉到的就是有部分是接觸到血液這感染性的物質所以有一部分其實它是醫療廢棄物但是它並沒有接觸到所謂感染性的所以做這個區分在未來實際上是一個重要的方向"},{"start":323.183,"end":323.683,"text":"還有請原民會原民會 專委原民會"},{"start":345.526,"end":369.965,"text":"好委員好我先就一些地方的議題問一下我們原民會跟環境部那我其實在去年的7月1號還有去年12月4號有針對信義鄉的一些環保園區有做了相關跨部會的一個就是詢問跟看看是不是從各部會能夠有一些經費挹注所以我們我想知道現在信義鄉的環保園區的進度到哪裡了"},{"start":372.606,"end":396.007,"text":"呃現在環保園區信義鄉委員不好意思這個部分因為我不同處事這部分我們是不是事後再給我們一些進度因為他就我去其實已經召開過兩次會議也也親自去現地勘察其實他的相關所確實是很努力希望能夠就他們一個一個土地的規模去做他們已經很像那個"},{"start":397.148,"end":412.715,"text":"所謂的那個地方的他們的計畫都送到縣政府了那希望如果說真的看到的話希望環境部能夠加快動作讓他們實現他們所謂環保園區的一個這個願景跟願望啦好不好因為我們還沒有看到所以如果看到的話請委員再告訴我們"},{"start":412.975,"end":432.024,"text":"那今年的1月26號我有去出入鄉做實地的考察有提到優化回收處理的一些設施跟他的抓斗車那我想知道他們目前的進度到哪裡我知道很像去年部長有到馬家鄉也有允諾說要給抓斗車可是現在馬家鄉也是有跟我提議說到底車子什麼時候來"},{"start":435.083,"end":450.314,"text":"我們最近因為整個預算的關係整個都有點慢了下來所以這個誰要回應一下馬家鄉馬家鄉還有春月鄉回收車不是抓斗車抓斗車是春月鄉對那沒有關係我們沒有負責抓斗車有嗎"},{"start":459.602,"end":478.852,"text":"那個也是因為現在預算的關係是屬於地方事務就比較沒有現在我們就針對今天的議題再問一下部長關於我有提一個修法就是32到35這邊有提到我們至於循環的一個推動裡面希望我們在"},{"start":480.413,"end":500.467,"text":"在這個代表裡面三分之一外部代表不得少於三分之一裡面的要有一個原住民主代表然後希望我們這樣能夠給原住民地區法人或者是合作社從事回收在內那個實質建築跟營運的補助那也希望針對原鄉興建及破棄的環保設施應該也要放寬它的土地變更的限制這樣子"},{"start":501.368,"end":523.198,"text":"因為其實原住民想做這些資源回收其實是很努力我相信你有去一些地方做考察過那我希望這部分能夠全部的支持我們偏向的困境因為我們有一些沒有辦法很難運輸的一個問題我們的量也不足所以你如果說單就它的營運的這個利潤的話我相信就是很難去支撐這樣的一個環保設施"},{"start":526.366,"end":550.032,"text":"我們因為這個法案我們包含你說的資源循環推動會我們的確有在規劃那至於說給原鄉部落或是給原鄉的這個環保的設施的部分我們到時候等到這個法案進來的時候我們可以再來討論我是覺得原住民其實在整個環境的保護相對的有他一套的很好的邏輯我們都市人應該跟原住民學習的所以這個部分資源也應該要多一點才對"},{"start":550.672,"end":576.087,"text":"最多最後一個一個抱怨就是我們針對3月17號在林邊的一個就是等於是戰事場我們的太陽能板那大概他燃燒了4個小時然後他的面積大概是8000平方公尺那我其實去看了一下他的相關的新聞其實因為我在想是不是因為他是執政黨的縣市所以看起來很像在報導上面不僅只有一頁或者是說也沒有相關的一些後續報導"},{"start":577.008,"end":603.967,"text":"我們想知道他到底有沒有處處分然後其實看到一些報導說其實都是輕描淡寫比如說呢他只有講到pm2.5介於什麼多少一個值然後說他只是一個普通其實就燃燒四個小時然後其實然後再在那個四個小時當中其實他是很難撲滅然後呢他就算撲滅了他也再一次引起燃燒然後其實我們就大概都知道說你只有他"},{"start":604.767,"end":633.713,"text":"媒體大概就講到PR2.5可是其實我們看到是有重金屬污染的風險又看到這些固體廢棄物跟微粒這些可能會影響到我們的土壤跟水源那這些確實他可以自來的這些風險其實也是要告知告知當地或者是附近的民眾那你要也要讓民眾知道你們採法的結果因為他只有寫說可能會出可能會有十萬到五百萬的這樣的一個罰款可是後續完全沒有聲音也沒有看到"},{"start":634.795,"end":640.008,"text":"環境部這邊有什麼相關的一些回應或者是說你們對這件事情的一個有的處理態度"},{"start":642.021,"end":668.263,"text":"因為這個是屬於地方的一個案例的事情所以這個是通常是地方的環保局跟消防局在做處理它還不夠大但是其實我們是一直在關注這個事情火災的時候它的空污對附近的影響那的確那個因為佔離可能它的比較遠所以它的PM2.5相對的數值比較低看起來沒有影響但是這個問題我們會再來追蹤一下說後續如何去有沒有相關的一個調查報告"},{"start":669.203,"end":685.65,"text":"還是要把所謂的戰車廠說太陽能板的這些全國應該也要盤點一下如果以後再發生的話是不是大家會覺得說其實環境部其實對這些戰車廠沒有所謂的SOPOK好我們會再跟主管單位能源署再來做討論好謝謝部長好謝謝好謝謝我們的盧憲裕委員"}]}},{"id":"168295","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168295","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/70d8fc05dcd8abb019d2140353eb85c6a7afadf2dd1952ec3efd812baa63ee58f8e03f26c378850b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"12:38:44 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我們請吳主委有請吳主委主委好 主委好 主委國科會當然我們討論一下現在全球所關心AI的狀況前兩天英國觀察家報它有排名一個全球的AI指數台灣排名第幾 知道吧"},{"start":21.631,"end":37.302,"text":"觀察家報我不知道耶有沒有看到我沒有看到全球AI指數第一名那這樣子本時要問第二個問題說第一名到第五名有多少個國家是亞洲國家清楚嗎"},{"start":38.359,"end":53.418,"text":"也不清楚我想亞洲大概做得比較好的新加坡韓國日本韓國他前五名分別是美國第一名中國大陸第二名新加坡第三名"},{"start":54.721,"end":73.159,"text":"英國第四名 韓國第五名有三個國家在前五名是亞洲國家而且是鄰近我們所以說相對來講我們自己也要努力因為台灣排名第十六名對 我們也要努力那十六名裡面他這邊特別有講到是說人才產業跟商業生態相對是比較落後"},{"start":73.94,"end":96.622,"text":"所以我覺得在國科會這一塊其實我們可以比較細究的就是人才的培育的部分AI的人才相對重要嘛所以本席今天想要更釐清的狀況是主委你應該也理解是說為什麼新加坡為什麼韓國可以排在比較前面他們人才的培育可能也有投入大量的經費跟資源那我們想要看的是說到底國科會有沒有對於我們台灣的人才培育是"},{"start":97.202,"end":125.073,"text":"一條龍的留住人才的完整的政策還是說一段一段的計畫這一點是我們也希望能夠看到的因為現在看到的是說我們每一個階段每一個階段計畫譬如說有學生的研究計畫有碩博士的研究計畫有博士的研究計畫以及產業的研究計畫但我們有沒有做統計到底有多少的人才他是可以持續的在這個領域上面來研究或是深入的來做一個推進"},{"start":128.107,"end":146.469,"text":"这种追踪我们没有办法做得很完整因为人才的流动很难去追踪到每个人但是刚刚委员讲的各个阶段第一次我们都有投入前段在中小学的部分其实教育部投入很多大学也有"},{"start":146.969,"end":172.815,"text":"但是在研究所以後這個人才就是我們在國科會的這個投入之下培養這個相關的研發的人力這是主要是國科會努力的方向當然國際合作我們跟這個特別是在應用領域我們比較缺乏的這些國家我們來做相關的這個合作這也是我們現在努力的目標"},{"start":174.472,"end":194.312,"text":"本席現在的問題就是說你分階段分階段都有做相關的不管是我們的研究計畫的一個補助或說研究計畫的一個的協助但是他人才的部分他就是分類有大學生的有博士生的有年輕學者的有產業人才的然後還有就是說人設卓越計畫"},{"start":195.433,"end":204.13,"text":"那但是我們現在想問的是說我們投入了那麼多費用到底有沒有把它變成是人才的一個持續培育還是說它就變成是各階段的一個單點單點的一個補助"},{"start":207.663,"end":234.079,"text":"這個才是本席想要請教過去我們已經花錢也許一開始沒有辦法一開始我們草創階段只能每個階段每個階段給予但是現在也已經幾年過去了那也看到說我們感覺有一個瓶頸在本席現在都是以很客觀持平來講因為不管是我剛剛講的全球AI指數或是說其他的機構做的AI感覺起來台灣我們中華民國就是被排名在差不多10名到20名左右"},{"start":234.739,"end":239.928,"text":"所以我們怎麼有辦法是說往前邁進這才是本席今天關心的重點是 我了解"},{"start":241.439,"end":266.565,"text":"台灣歸根究底可能最大的問題就是因為台灣的硬體產業非常的強非常強不管是你在學校培育的是什麼樣的人才大多數好的人才最終都進到我們半導體還有AI硬體的產業因為那邊的獲利比較高比較能夠吸引人才所以反而我們在相關的創新應用系統的"},{"start":269.326,"end":296.107,"text":"那個社會的這個需求人才反而是比較不足這是我們要改善的是 但是現在我們講嘛有些時候站在風頭上連豬都會起飛啊有聽過這句話嗎所以也因此講是說如果說未來的這十年甚至未來的一個趨勢AI的軟體運用是一個很大的產業那我們就不能只是擁抱我們過去因為我們的台積電我們的半導體我們的晶圓相對來講是過去二三十年打下的基礎"},{"start":297.068,"end":312.37,"text":"那但是現在也看到了我們的台積電也往美國有些往美國往日本移動那我們現在要講的是說我們怎麼樣去培育下一個階段產業的趨勢脈動也跟我們來說相結合所以本市比較具體的建議主委你聽聽看"},{"start":314.488,"end":337.122,"text":"針對我們現在有做的不管是大學生、碩博士生或是說年輕的學者的這個有獲得補助的部分是不是定期的能夠追蹤他們到底後續續留在相關AI產業裡面以及他們的這個持續產出的一個可行性來做一個比較完整的趨勢讓我們能夠理解是說我們現在所投入的每一分錢"},{"start":337.762,"end":357.505,"text":"他都等於是打基礎打地基能夠持續的蓋把我們台灣AI人才給持續的留在這個領域並且持續能夠有做累積好謝謝委員這個建議這個其實對我們來講相當的困難因為困難學生離開學校以後他們去向我們"},{"start":358.886,"end":382.007,"text":"我們也很難去他獲得了國科會的研究補助然後後續他怎麼樣是不是有持續留在這個領域精進或者說他可以往哪一個方向發展這個沒有辦法做追蹤我們是沒有辦法追蹤人因為人是很自由在移動他最後會進到哪樣那這樣子他有沒有留在台灣或說甚至有沒有在這個產業持續的扎根"},{"start":383.028,"end":407.902,"text":"跟說我們一次性的補助這個就是本席現在想問的我們不能每過十年之後還做草創的事情嗎我們只能用後續的統計統計我們不會知道說哪個人因為我們沒有權去追蹤個人嘛後續這個產業的發展我們的人才的狀況來回過頭來推算看我們我們投資的是不是能夠產生效益本席現在沒有要的是個案"},{"start":410.723,"end":421.348,"text":"本質要的是說針對你的這樣計畫你至少你能了解是說我們後續你的追蹤是不是有效然後持續在這一個領域裡面能夠有人才的一個培育"},{"start":423.171,"end":438.531,"text":"也許部分是跟教育部有相關但是有許部分是還有經濟部我們會來努力看看來做一下相關的統計來看看那個成效當然我們現在的政策上我們也希望是能夠引導引導非"},{"start":441.175,"end":467.892,"text":"在這個專業領域非電資領域的這些人才這是另外一個階段嘛就等於是說他跨界或是斜槓能夠來參與希望他們能夠善用AI來發展各行各業的滿足他的需求我們現在會努力來做所以我知道這個議題是相對比較大的議題那但是我期待的是國科會他用的經費是能夠讓台灣的人才持續扎根這也是為什麼我會跟你提出來"},{"start":468.712,"end":483.932,"text":"要跨部會我也知道也因此本席才講說由國科會這邊來掌握至少因為未來的社會裡面這個人才的培育是重要的那本席從這個全球AI指數就看到連外國媒體都點出來台灣的困境在於是人才產業"},{"start":485.294,"end":507.572,"text":"那我们就是要想办法补足这一块不过我跟委员报告一个事实就是即使我们培养非常多的AI的人才他虽然最后不是进到AI的产业他是进到台湾的高科技的产业虽然是做半导体AI的设备但是因为这些人的加入让台湾的半导体AI的设备"},{"start":508.833,"end":534.445,"text":"設備的公司我們的智慧製造是全世界最厲害的我們這個產業會這麼強的原因也是因為過去有這種努力各種各樣好的人才都進到這個產業雖然它造成不平衡但是會讓台灣這個產業變成全世界第一名你講那個AI的排名你如果講AI我們過去到現在沒有否定台灣某些產業是第一但是本席現在在講的是其實"},{"start":535.385,"end":538.787,"text":"你不覺得這樣子溝通真的有點困擾你這樣的感覺好像說反正我們排名16無所謂啦18無所謂啦現在AI落後無所謂啦韓國走在前面我沒有這樣講我剛剛已經講過我們怎麼樣講不客氣的怎麼樣在AI產業上面我們也好想贏韓國"},{"start":552.193,"end":579.312,"text":"就这样一件事情所以我刚刚有跟委员报告那结果你现在跟我讲是说没关系反正我们的AI人才也去半导体那半导体不就是过去三四十年我们的竹科投入了然后才有现在的基础所以也许不是一两年有办法超越但是我们现在不做的话永远就没有办法起步不就这么简单吗我们如果没有培养这些AI人才我们的半导体产业没有办法做到今天这种智慧市场没有办法"},{"start":580.373,"end":602.296,"text":"所以這個不是說我們白費力氣培養這些人才我現在沒有講白費力氣我現在講的是人才要聚焦要培育如果說你認為說這一塊沒有那麼重要的話那也不會現在刷碼AI 駭馬AI甚至現在內閣還自詡叫AI內閣結果本席在問的是說連AI的人才到底去了哪裡有沒有好的培育"},{"start":603.016,"end":630.986,"text":"你也回答不出來我剛剛回答了大部分人才跑到我們強勢的產業因為那邊的收入比較高但是我不是說這樣是所以主委我們能不能努力在國科會的努力之下我們也讓台灣的AI產業可以變成是收入比較高比較好的一群讓我們的AI實力能夠比較好有我同意這個但是我剛剛已經解釋我怎麼做我已經剛剛講了我希望能夠協助其他的產業的發展"},{"start":632.768,"end":636.773,"text":"所以最基本的資料先拿出來我們拿數據來說話大家討論數據就是我剛講的現狀未來的發展是AI新時代建設我們要推動全民智慧生活圈"},{"start":648.388,"end":672.097,"text":"就是要做創新應用系統啊要協助其他的產業啊主委 本席都很那好你可不可以聽本席現在我們剛剛講了那麼多的東西其實最主要我要求的就是請國科會跟經濟部跟教育部來討論一下是不是在一定的時間內給我們相關到底你過去這幾年投入AI的人才培育的部分他們的走向"},{"start":672.757,"end":694.178,"text":"以及他們是不是有持續在這個行業還是即便是他到了半導體產業的時候他們怎麼樣去貢獻你至少拿出數據來說服國會說服國人而本期看到一個客觀數據今天不是我去做今天不是台灣排名16並不是我做的是英國觀察人觀察家報他們做出來的一個指標"},{"start":695.439,"end":714.032,"text":"我也沒有否定因為他93個國家我們排名16也有人講是說不錯但是有沒有能夠更好因為前五名有三個國家是亞洲國家我們不比韓國人差我們不比中國大陸人差我們不比新加坡人差我們怎麼樣能夠跟上這才是本席的重點我們在AI的應用我們一定會努力"},{"start":714.853,"end":743.512,"text":"但是在AI的硬體製造台灣是全世界第一的這你不能否認但是我們會努力把台灣的大內宣真的大內宣可以省一省本席要的是怎麼樣能夠一起努力看到我們同仁都在笑了本席要的是我們可以一起努力不是說我們今天關起門來大內宣所以16名怎麼樣能夠往前邁進拿出具體的辦法先從地部整理相關資料我們一起共同再來討論可以嗎"},{"start":744.753,"end":745.514,"text":"多久時間內可以根本息?這個統計齁"},{"start":761.656,"end":786.837,"text":"要跟教育部還有經濟部一起做這個可能要三個月三個月好本席等你三個月好本席要的是真真正正看到數據數據不會騙人數據很科學很理性數據大概會但絕對不是這種你自我感覺良好一直講台灣No.1我不是自我感覺良好台灣當然No.1但是有很多我們不足的地方我們要努力每天都在台灣No.1"},{"start":788.137,"end":813.949,"text":"我們要努力AI新時代建設就希望我們大院趕快把我們的預算通過謝謝 做好 自然我們會好好的來努力但是主委如果說用這種態度的話真的國人都看在眼裡了 拜託我們已經做得很好 台灣的經濟不會發展到這個程度你的數據是排名16 這客觀的事實這不是我的數據啊 拜託 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謝謝主席那邀請我們市華部我們林部長來 請林部長陳委員長安好 部長早那我在這邊先一個簡單的問題是 請問部長我們的這個治安院就是我們國家自動安全研究院嘛"},{"start":32.054,"end":47.95,"text":"這一個行政法人應該我們部長這邊管轄的到吧監督的到吧是我們今天院長也有來嗎不是 這個是我們專屬署長好 署長 那院長有來嗎有 也請院長好不好"},{"start":50.424,"end":75.48,"text":"院長好像上洗手間好 待會請他也培訓那我判斷我也可以很精確的來確認我們部長這邊對我們治安院絕對有監督的一個責任那治安院就我了解目前有兩個問題一個問題就是治安院本身內部"},{"start":77.401,"end":80.184,"text":"我們的同仁資安院的同仁有涉及我們院內的一個機密、敏感的文件"},{"start":92.478,"end":109.893,"text":"上傳到雲端啊然後讓各界自由的下載那這個案子啊那也經由我們的北檢去處理嘛那我們的同仁好像最後也都是"},{"start":112.834,"end":126.289,"text":"這個有交保嘛是這個案保證你知道嗎我知道先簡單的說明一下這個案是你了解嗎我們治安院院長說明這些事情分三個方面講第一個就是說這件事情是我們治安院主動發現主動找調查局來調查"},{"start":128.852,"end":143.344,"text":"然後第二點是說發現的事情是說那個院內有同仁他利用駭客的手法去閱讀他不應該閱讀的文件然後第三個部分是說他拿到這些文件以後是內部的同仁自己在看還是說外部在看嘛這件事情我們還在調查還在調查當中那其實我們檢調單位也出手了對不對這三位可能有三位吧這同仁現在也在交保候傳嘛"},{"start":157.555,"end":182.854,"text":"那這樣的案子在我們國家級的一個治安的一個單位產生這樣的一個狀況好 還好是你們內部發現了 主動報案了那我請問院長 這樣的事情會再發生嗎我們內部人員的管控 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可以給嗎"},{"start":437.881,"end":446.784,"text":"這個因為要看那個那個各個法人因為他是自然院士抒發部下屬的行政法人所以他說不給就不給那我你的預算該給我們也可以不給啊沒有這個有法律規定那個有哪些是"},{"start":459.589,"end":477.92,"text":"那我要資料你說不給就不給你部長也不敢講說應該要給這樣的資料的機密嘛我們今天要一個資料你一個治安院說不給就不給那你的人員的任用從你的調查報告看出來就是有瑕疵有問號"},{"start":481.863,"end":502.716,"text":"你也不處理那我請問我請問你們去做這個調查案這樣的一個報告完你們怎麼做有人要資料不給然後人員你們那部調查完之後認為沒事情但是從文字裡面可以發覺就是有狀況有問題怎麼處理"},{"start":505.78,"end":529.053,"text":"我們自己的內規在更早以前訂的內規我們檢討以後發現不合時宜所以我們做了修改是因為這件事情做了修改嗎有幾個case我們內部的幾個case會不符合那一個內規所以我們做了修正所以你們的內規一直在修正"},{"start":529.773,"end":547.249,"text":"所以委員辦公室要鎖這個內規來資料來瞭解你們不提供所以你們就是自己內部自己來調整自己來因人來辦理因人來調整這樣的規定對不對所以不敢提供給"},{"start":547.85,"end":552.074,"text":"因為那個內規定的時間比較久因為內規定的時間比較久那前面已經有幾個case是聘任的時候不符合就因人設施嘛因人把內規調整在我接任之前"},{"start":565.146,"end":569.268,"text":"在我之前因為在聘的時候沒有去注意到那個內規那後來發現聘了有幾位是不符合的然後就修正了那個內規我在這裡還是要跟專院院長來再次的告知"},{"start":584.977,"end":611.195,"text":"我們委員大家一視同仁 所知該給就給 不是提供資料第二個 既然你的內規任用人士可以因人而挑戰那就代表沒有制度 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常常有很多人就會覺得說運動就是運動 文化就是文化那主委你如何看待就是運動跟文化其實他們常常就是都有合作就是跨部合作那主委你能不能把這個運動文化這樣一個新的名詞做一個論述呢"},{"start":438.577,"end":453.315,"text":"把运动当作一个文化的元素这个在西方国家是非常普遍的当作一个元素它会变成我们日常生活的需求日常生活的需求其实是会促进产业的发展"},{"start":454.136,"end":475.761,"text":"那這個是正向的循環就不要說以後談到運動都是政府要編預算才有辦法辦活動啊辦比賽等等讓這個民間也會龐大力量也會帶進來所以我們希望把運動變成是文化的一部分所以也就是說未來文化部跟運動部他們是會結合在一起的這個是全民運動就比較能夠"},{"start":476.781,"end":482.125,"text":"謝謝主委我希望你這個牆內的一個論述來強化這個運動文化我也希望運動提升到進入融合到文化裡面去那最後我要再請教那個主委因您具備豐富的一個宗教步行宗教步行進香活動那民俗義正還有自然步道很多尤其在美人北起從苗栗沿海經過台中彰化"},{"start":507.385,"end":525.178,"text":"引領嘉義的這樣的一個媽祖廊道北港朝天宮更是台灣媽祖的一個信仰中心這是發展台灣的運動文化這裡面也寫的這是最好的一個實驗場所我也希望主委能夠支持迎林縣納入運動"},{"start":527.84,"end":548.58,"text":"運動領域跟人文社科領域的一個示範的一個縣市將運動、人文、信仰、人口移動還有社會變遷整合來做一個研究我們來看這樣的一個足跡帶動了一個運動還有一個文化的一個領域那這個主委請教你的看法"},{"start":550.694,"end":569.055,"text":"我以这个政委身份我也在督导运动部那从这个政委的角度来看我是非常非常欣赏委员这种看法就是说把台湾的这个民俗的文化结合我们的这个运动让它变成是融入我们的生活这个是我是支持的"},{"start":569.835,"end":587.9,"text":"因為我本身也在國科會所以以科技的角度來看將來科技引進以後協助運動、協助文化這個都是很必要的未來我們讓我們的生活變得更好文化進到文明的發展都更好我是很支持這樣的做法"},{"start":588.76,"end":616.368,"text":"那我們希望能夠做一套這樣的一個研究啦就是步行那個進箱步行了一兩百公里這樣的一個運動的一個效果還有就是足跡那個足探這個我們都可以做一個研究吧是不是也避免有傷害啦所以這個都需要研究那我們也鼓勵學者我國科會會支持如果相關學者願意進來做研究我們會支持好謝謝主委"},{"start":619.48,"end":620.709,"text":"好 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各位早安 三間政委辛苦了今天幾個議題跟您討論跟請教第一個是我們最近有看到這個新聞中科大學學倫案那我們上個禮拜問了教育部因為它一案多頭同時還有中國的補助我們從來沒有反對跟中國做學術文化經濟各式各樣的交流但是因為它違反學倫那目前教育部的說法說國科會針對這個案子也已經在立案調查那第二個我也想要問一下去年有一個台師大的這個女足抽血案"},{"start":47.894,"end":69.147,"text":"那一樣涉及學倫的問題那我知道國科會也已經展開調查目前這兩個案子我認為都是國人會積極關心的案子所以呢如果由這兩個案子往下看我想問一下主委目前關於學倫這個議題國科會有沒有更加積極的態度在未來的事件或者是過去已經發生的事件正在調查中的案件國科會會不會有什麼樣的機制"},{"start":71.002,"end":96.923,"text":"國科院在去年處理台師大學倫案後來也已經有結論也跟社會大眾也公布了那國科院也很積極的在宣導學術倫理的重要性我們也制定了這個研究人員學術倫理守則也公布在國科院的網站上這個去年已經公開了那我在大學校長會議也特別在提醒我們各校的校長"},{"start":97.944,"end":115.253,"text":"那我们在这个今年刚刚举办过的所有的学门的学门召集人的会议我也在重新这个学术伦理的重要性至于我们国会的学术伦理委员会我们也特别在修改了我们的处置的办法"},{"start":116.013,"end":138,"text":"對於這個學術倫理我們加緊這個宣導之外呢我們在處罰的部分也加重了這個也都已經在學術倫理委員會也通過修改這個辦法所以剛剛委員提到了這個案子我們接到檢舉以後我們馬上就進行了這個程序已經發展到該校"},{"start":139.58,"end":166.024,"text":"那循程序我們正在處理當中未來進到調查完畢進到會裡面我們會召開學術委員會來處置我花這麼多時間讓主委說明我覺得是一種像社會大眾報告的方法沒有錯那但是我也看到我們下一張我看到主委這邊有說到另外一件事情就說未來國科會審查計畫的時候將廢除以量來取勝這件事情希望納入專利產學合作績效社會貢獻跟影響力"},{"start":167.064,"end":186.517,"text":"確實這是國人會關心的事情但是我也想要往下問我們在設想有沒有一個可能剛剛我們所說的這些學輪案你剛說的不管是因為調查成果已經跟國人報告或者是相關的懲罰機制都已經在委員會裡面討論但是我們在想說有沒有機會在國科會的這個機制底下建立一個學輪案的查詢平台"},{"start":187.037,"end":216.637,"text":"因为事实上不会只有一般人关心或相关的学术单位关心例如说很多政府单位也会发包所谓的研究案对吗那如果过去有些教授曾经涉及学轮案我们要不要有个平台公开查询让各个政府单位或是学术机构单位大家可以第一时间当然在符合各资法保护的情况下我觉得要把这些学轮案平台建立起来然后让相关单位可以查询有没有这个机会这个可能我们先做相关评估报告"},{"start":218.438,"end":232.327,"text":"謝謝委員這個建議事實上我們目前的機制如果是比較嚴重的案件停權三年以上我們都會公開都會公布的至於是不是要特別建立一個查詢的平台我們可以研議一下這不違反人權"},{"start":237.17,"end":251.861,"text":"是 为不违反各自人权跟保障每一个人的这个学术研究权利的空间情况下我们可以如何去规划我们来研议是不是可以采用这个方式两个月内给我们相关报告好不好好 谢谢主委再来下一个比较困难"},{"start":252.321,"end":277.231,"text":"因為你同時身兼政委所以我想這一題我有必要好好跟您討論我在總質詢的時候也已經講過關於AI時代的主權台灣如何不要被邊緣化這件事情我相信主委我講到這裡應該知道我要講什麼來第一個目前呢我知道我們的書發部跟國發會呢急著而且非常積極的先之前因為有TED的模型我們發現模型非常需要大量的語料所以我們意識到台灣的內容產業所有的語料"},{"start":280.592,"end":305.436,"text":"是非常重要的工具跟资源否则台湾在未来云端的世界会被边缘化我想这个观点主委你一定是认同的来下一张那我们就试试看来玩一下现在坊间大家很常用像CHAP GPT我们就问他说从1990到2020台湾发生过哪些重要体育史拿过哪些奖杯哪些运动员参赛发生过什么样的事件结果AI不大知道"},{"start":305.856,"end":330.118,"text":"因為他沒有語料尤其是我們在國外這些大語言模型上個月呢參與委員他到部落去阿里山的鄒族部落頭目給他取了一個很美麗的名字象徵強壯跟勇敢可是他拿去問GBTGBT竟然跟他說這是山豬的意思那義語委員就說這是美麗的誤會因為AI語言大模型不認識我們台灣原住民語沒有這些語料背景資料"},{"start":330.518,"end":346.832,"text":"或者是我們再問他台灣的保肝藥品思思廣告我們從小看到大思思有保肝什麼什麼什麼之類的功能一樣問AI他什麼都不知道主委來下一張更可愛了我問他誰是吳承文他跟我說他是速發部部長"},{"start":348.697,"end":370.767,"text":"那我問他 他會打棒球嗎他說啊 很抱歉 目前公開資料中吳承文並沒有以棒球選手或是長期參與棒球活動聞名的記錄但主委啊 我想現場應該大家很多人不知道對不對你們知道吳主委曾經是威廉波特的選手嗎知道的舉手你們年紀大都知道 大家都比AI還要厲害"},{"start":372.408,"end":395.482,"text":"這不是年紀的問題柯委員關心台灣運動史的人都知道曾經台灣過去還有一個非常重要的報紙在我們年紀小的時候都看過叫做民生報那民生報在落幕之後呢他們的語料資料其實是台灣運動史發展上非常重要我剛剛只是舉了一些不管是參與委員個人的事情或者廣告的這些資料或者是"},{"start":396.563,"end":421.732,"text":"吳主委你的威廉波特這一段AI不知道我現在不是要講我們發生哪些問題所以我們辦公室非常積極我們做了幾件事情跟主委報告我們在去年的8月跟9月雖然我是黨團幹部但是因為我們來自內容產業我知道不是只有平面的內容需要被AI認識我們包含廣播的聲音的電影的報紙的還有過去的很多文史資料老照片台灣的故事這些"},{"start":422.412,"end":438.421,"text":"都需要被指导所以我们找了述发部文化部经济部制裁局还有来自很多内容产业的人我们甚至访问了很多不同产业的人他们产业知识其实也需要被指导所以我想要请教主委我们做了一些整理来往下"},{"start":439.349,"end":463.66,"text":"我們彙整一下如果現在來看台灣的主權AI各自的分工我知道國科會過往有做Tide然後我知道國科會有做台灣主權AI訓練的語料授權的條款當時是無償授權只有花了少少的錢跟中央社買了一些資料後來呢速發部接力往下做匯集政府資料收集無償資料開放AI語料庫然後呢希望整理公共領域的資料就超過著作權50年的這很棒"},{"start":465.481,"end":485.821,"text":"好 我讲了这么多其实我们心里都清楚我们至少需要1TB这只是至少1TB至少是百万本的资料但是我们如何打包这些资料跟国外的大语言模型公司合作而国内的打包它需要有偿的授权无偿的授权它需要去整理资料它甚至要上标签变成是机器可以判读的资料"},{"start":486.141,"end":509.367,"text":"他不是有一個編輯處理完就可以全部打包上去而這麼龐雜的工作如果沒有國科會為主來領導各個部會同時跨到行政院等級我認為未來兩到三年台灣在雲端真的會被邊緣化所以我很開心看到了主委你之前有宣誓要成立戰略委員會在行政院等級那我們幫你找的法源依據我們來看一下來"},{"start":510.307,"end":530.342,"text":"科學技術基本法裡面有提到第五條跟第六條有提到如果國家相關的補助研究發展成果必須要轉換實際可以生產跟利用的內容再往下在上一個會期通過了AI基本法裡面也說到政府應該建立資料開放共享跟再利用機制好我講這麼多我相信主委你都知道我在擔心什麼"},{"start":530.962,"end":552.23,"text":"那再来那人工智慧战略特别委员会来下一个人工智慧战略特别委员会即将成立我不确定主委这边有什么规划跟打算但是我就是就我一个在意台湾内容的人他不论是从产业从民间甚至我们知道文化部过去有做过所谓的台湾民间故事的这个数位网站"},{"start":552.99,"end":575.942,"text":"各式各樣的東西它有數位的沒有數位的有還活在放在圖書館裡面久久才會有人翻閱的那一種就像或是我剛剛舉例的民生報這些事情它只要沒有被數位化或是數位化後它沒有被標籤化其實AI都讀不到就如同主委你過去打棒球的故事也沒有人只有人知道但是AI機器人不知道那未來我們怎麼辦主委我想要請你說說看"},{"start":577.623,"end":600.752,"text":"非常感謝陳委員的建議其實我們已經啟動一個規劃現在是數化部在主政我們主權AI台灣自主語料庫的這個建制那剛剛委員提到這件事情我們的想法是希望能夠來協助我們的媒體把早期沒有數位化的這些"},{"start":602.353,"end":616.751,"text":"非常珍贵的这些算是史料媒体的这个资讯我们以国会来编列这个科技预算来协助可以把这些数位化数位化完以后可以进到"},{"start":617.372,"end":632.68,"text":"我們的語料庫那我們希望是擁有這個著作權的媒體他可以允許無廠的來授權我們來協助蘇維化以後他們還是擁有擁有他的這個著作權也可以自主的運用"},{"start":633.28,"end":653.841,"text":"但是要捐给我们主权AI的这个资料库能够做这个我们主权AI的模型的这个训练这个模型训练完以后我们可以公开来协助我们各行各业各个领域的这个发展这个机制我们现在正在演绎当中希望能够行这个方向创造共赢"},{"start":654.994,"end":683.072,"text":"我覺得主委你講的方向有一個是對的但是有一個我先有一個問號一個它確實需要被數位化所以過去擁有這些內容的人要如何跟國家政府合作協助建立這個餘料庫這個我沒有問題但是是不是無償授權我先打一個問號例如說我隨便舉一個例子台灣的紡織業非常的厲害到現在台灣的紡織業產出更多新的知識但是在業界之間這些知識都不見得願意交換喔所以當你到餘料庫的時候你就要無償授權"},{"start":684.012,"end":702.277,"text":"委員我講的是媒體已經發布公開資訊其實沒有什麼隱瞞的嘛這應該是全民可以共享的那我舉一個例子但是他要訓練他的應用的模型優化的時候他的資料不必公開他們自己去做優化訓練這是不會影響到生意的好"},{"start":702.917,"end":723.039,"text":"我要講的是因為他們現在很多人例如說以聯合報跟中國時報或者是以前的各大報他們現在都有數位資料庫在線上營運或者是連學術論文其實都要付費才可以下載所以我們一旦要這些擁有內容的人他願意釋出跟政府合作我認為需要大量的討論機制所以也期待"},{"start":723.419,"end":750.195,"text":"後續在國家員工智慧戰略特別委員會這邊我很好奇會有哪些產業共同來進到委員會然後在這個委員會裡面會有哪些部會接下來會有哪些學者專家他絕對不能只有AI科技產業的人他一定還有跨部會跨產業甚至是更多跟民生有關的事情才有機會建立一個更好的講台灣故事讓台灣在雲端不要被邊緣的AI餘料庫這個部分要拜託主委跟數法部也好或是跨部會來幫忙因為你是政委"},{"start":752.317,"end":754.061,"text":"這個部分我會直接再跟國科會積極的討論可以嗎好謝謝主委謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"168300","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168300","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/70d8fc05dcd8abb07ef4cfb629bf9733b9b76447cfe948dbb9fb3178c14150d94e59da5588efa9b45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐富癸","委員發言時間":"12:55:53 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鄭振淺 鄭振淺洪玉祥 洪玉祥 洪玉祥何欣淳 何欣淳 何欣淳許富奎謝主席 邀請我們吳主委 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12:59:27","影片長度":"00:13:53","會議時間":"2026-04-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、經濟部、衛生福利部、農業部就「穩定供給與減塑並進：因應國際原物料波動之原物料穩定供應及我國減塑治理進程」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n\n討論事項\n一、審查「廢棄物清理法條文修正草案」9案：\n（一）委員馬文君等17人擬具「廢棄物清理法第五條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員顏寬恒等19人擬具「廢棄物清理法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員顏寬恒等17人擬具「廢棄物清理法第五條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員林淑芬等22人擬具「廢棄物清理法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員張宏陸等17人擬具「廢棄物清理法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員邱議瑩等21人擬具「廢棄物清理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員許智傑等29人擬具「廢棄物清理法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員劉建國等19人擬具「廢棄物清理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「廢棄物清理法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查「資源回收再利用法修正草案」2案：\n（一）委員許智傑等28人擬具「資源回收再利用法修正草案」案。\n（二）委員盧縣一等16人擬具「資源回收再利用法修正草案」案。\n【專題報告及法律案綜合詢答，法律案僅詢答】\n【4月8日及9日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-04-08","start_time":"2026-04-08T12:45:34+08:00","end_time":"2026-04-08T12:59:27+08:00","duration":833,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":5,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-5-26-5"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.6172187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6.59534375,"end":10.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10.35846875,"end":14.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":15.235343750000002,"end":15.775343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16.46721875,"end":19.875968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":20.01096875,"end":23.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":24.63471875,"end":25.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":26.33909375,"end":27.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":27.28409375,"end":28.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":29.140343750000003,"end":37.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.17721875,"end":37.409093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":41.96534375,"end":46.21784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":47.01096875,"end":47.635343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":48.02346875,"end":54.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":54.486593750000004,"end":58.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":58.95846875,"end":61.658468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":61.962218750000005,"end":62.164718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":62.51909375,"end":63.565343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":64.30784375,"end":80.49096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":80.69346875000001,"end":84.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":84.49034375000001,"end":86.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":86.66721875,"end":94.27784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":94.75034375,"end":96.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":96.50534375000001,"end":97.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":97.83846875,"end":104.90909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":105.21284375,"end":109.29659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":109.44846875,"end":110.57909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":110.86596875000001,"end":114.10596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":114.46034375,"end":120.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":120.83909375,"end":122.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":122.67846875000001,"end":124.78784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":125.29409375,"end":127.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":127.50471875000001,"end":133.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":134.15346875,"end":138.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":138.94596875000002,"end":214.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":215.11971875,"end":217.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":217.33034375000003,"end":258.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":259.02846875,"end":274.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":274.77284375,"end":341.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":336.33284375,"end":336.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":341.19284375,"end":363.50159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":364.21034375000005,"end":397.74096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":398.06159375000004,"end":402.56721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":403.02284375000005,"end":408.45659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":407.42721875,"end":409.06409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":409.50284375,"end":414.41346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":411.76409375000003,"end":412.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":415.15596875,"end":427.17096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":427.94721875000005,"end":430.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":430.68096875000003,"end":431.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":432.09846875000005,"end":433.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":433.78596875000005,"end":434.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":435.87846875,"end":436.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":437.54909375000005,"end":437.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":439.89471875000004,"end":495.70034375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":496.34159375,"end":502.85534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":503.36159375000005,"end":505.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":505.45409375,"end":506.466593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謝謝主席今天排了這麼豐富的議題讓大家各位委員都可以好好的來救救我們的所有政府官員那針對今天的議題有幾個議題需要跟我們相關的主管機關來做一些對談包括這個關於藥品藥材的價格波動的部分"},{"start":29.178,"end":37.63,"text":"那另外就是塑膠的去化部分那我是不是先請我們的這個衛福部的食藥署江署長跟中保署的人部署長"},{"start":42.434,"end":61.467,"text":"剛剛很多委員都有提了相關的議題委員好市長好副市長好就是藥品的醫材塑化原料工業管缺造成的大家都很擔心我相信剛剛很多委員都有請教過兩位署長跟副署長其實"},{"start":64.509,"end":84.082,"text":"我們也了解這個最重要的部分就是要確保供應跟穩定價格這兩大重點那之前市部長也針對這個議題也希望透過目前所編列的特別預算就是國安任性特別條例裡面有包含了200億元的健保基金安全的"},{"start":84.742,"end":113.875,"text":"這也是準備金的部分那請教一下依照這個特別條例裡面在相關藥品或者是醫療器材有關本次的原料物波動至這些製劑成本增加的情形之下才能夠會動用到這200億的特別基金的準備那請問一下目前健保署跟這個食藥署能不能進一步說明幾戶調整跟特別預算"},{"start":114.522,"end":133.323,"text":"在挹注健保的具體模式就是到時候應該怎麼樣來動之這一筆的準備金那目前有沒有相關受影響的業者開始在申請那申請的這些概況還有相關流程是否通暢是否流暢是不是先請署長然後再請副署長好"},{"start":134.444,"end":153.651,"text":"謝謝委員委員特別提到這一次中東戰事之下影響整個的原物料的影響那我們在藥品醫材部分通報剛才提到陸陸續續有8家的藥品商加上19家的醫材相關的產業通報了許多的品項"},{"start":154.511,"end":181.36,"text":"那對於成本的增加呢我們其實總共接到72家業者包括50家藥品跟22家醫材目前的成本的增加我們預估起來接近是15億左右的的一個金額上面的調整需要能夠去討論那這個部分我們其實跟健保署這邊其實雙向是能夠通暢來進行我們彼此的調價的那目前已經有"},{"start":181.92,"end":209.281,"text":"而特定的家我就不特別講哪一家有提出了所謂希望能夠調價的特定的那也有一個醫材的部分也提出特定的醫材的部分那是特定一個疾病需要的一些管路那因為成本上面非常這樣直接的成本所以他們提出的相關的成本分析呢相對就是比較清楚更為完整在健保署這邊能夠共同來去擬定那因為我也不曉得戰事到底會延續多長的一個時間所以我們針對"},{"start":211.943,"end":223.536,"text":"整個的產業以及它所謂的藥品跟醫材的佔比我們藥品的包材我們算起來大概是8%它的成本那醫材的部分有些甚至可以達到1 1 2 25%"},{"start":226.86,"end":251.477,"text":"所以我們最整體的調降調整的一些預估成本的增加大約是在17億到33億左右的範圍跟空間所以目前針對整個成本的需求我們大概是按照這樣來做評估那後續的調整的部分呢我們也有不同的做法跟想法除了從健保以外我們也希望能夠從前面那一端的原料的部分"},{"start":251.897,"end":269.937,"text":"能夠給予支持的部分那這部分呢也是持續在跟COPWAY我們有一些溝通在進行當中以上好 謝謝那請問副署長就是針對之前石部長所認定的這些標準來看的話那這200億的健保基金的安全準備金將來是否會影響到"},{"start":271.378,"end":286.179,"text":"包括其他種的這些帶來的影響是 謝委員 雖然根據那個全民健康保險藥局付法那34小、35小在藥品的部分那其實常常是可以根據它的成本分析來調整它的支付項"},{"start":286.98,"end":314.214,"text":"那至於在課材的部分在五十三十二條也有規範是可以依成本分析來做調整的事調整他的事務下那目前跟健保署反映的現在有三個項目第一個主要是藥品的部分是一個乳膏劑的部分那個類固醇方面的藥膏第二個是兩項課材的部分一個長安醫材幾歲的引流管的那個課材的部分那目前都有替代產品那剛才"},{"start":315.154,"end":344.042,"text":"那個委員問到那200億基金的部分那目前的話如果評估這個不敷成本的可能藥品跟客服器的話目前跟食藥署在推估大概影響的部分大概會在7.5億左右那目前的話在藥品大概5.16那客服器的話有可能會影響到2.2所以在200億基金的部分實際上是有辦法來適應的OK 好 謝謝聽起來大家應該可以很安心"},{"start":344.862,"end":362.83,"text":"那再請一下請教署長就是有關基層藥局其實他們也受到衝擊那剛剛所提到都是針對200億的資金是用生產製造端的廠商的補助或者是幫忙那對於基層藥局他們所反映的事情目前有沒有相關的機制可以來協助"},{"start":364.969,"end":388.279,"text":"就這個部分因為基層藥局我們接到的一些訊息是特別是他們所謂的夾鏈的藥袋的部分提供的藥袋的部分因為他們是在交付處方給予我們的所以整個的經費的部分是在如果是整個健保的話就是另外健保的部分那藥袋的部分因為每一顆我們知道的訊息大概是0.2塊"},{"start":390.581,"end":409.811,"text":"對0.2塊的部分我們在想如何去反映這個部分那這部分其實因為計算起來錢不是很多但是每個藥局裡面還是會有一些影響我們持續在研議當中目前還沒有直接就是如接補到藥局去目前還沒有特別的好這部分讓阿文署長繼續來關注謝謝那就請署長副長回座"},{"start":415.599,"end":433.736,"text":"再過來要麻煩針對這個農業廢棄物的部分來請教農糧署陳主任秘書跟資源永續利用師的杜科長那麻煩我們的洪宏義那個組長還有杜科長是"},{"start":439.932,"end":462.231,"text":"那其實首先要很感謝也很恭喜農業部還有環境部中央跟地方政府共同在全民的努力之下在3月6日我們獲得世界動物衛生組織核可恢復為非洲豬瘟自我生命飛躍區這真的是得來不易真的很感謝所有大家共同的努力"},{"start":462.771,"end":475.289,"text":"那針對於今天農業部書面報告針對肥料穩定供應的情形其實大家也都非常的努力不管是透過台肥部分吸收漲幅還有適時的補助這個國內肥料業者讓所有的這個影響能夠影響到最低"},{"start":479.13,"end":491.597,"text":"不過今天想要跟兩位討論來有關於農業廢棄物的部分怎麼樣讓這個塑膠類別的去化模式可以更穩定的來做進步那我們看到的資料就是在這張113年的統計表裡面"},{"start":496.343,"end":499.847,"text":"將近500萬噸的這個農業廢棄物裡面有2%是屬於非生物性的這個部分那佔了將近12800公噸那請問目前這些廢棄物裡面的"},{"start":512.24,"end":528.621,"text":"所看到主要的回收模式是屬於資源回收這個資源回收在相關的做法裡面最重要的方式到底是什麼樣的方式讓這個資源回收可以再利用請問一下農業部的觀點"},{"start":530.905,"end":557.141,"text":"好 謝謝委員的指導那針對那個農業塑膠的一個部分那它是屬於一般的一個廢棄物那我們農業部跟環境部這邊是合作的關係那因為塑膠布或是那個農抹因為它可能在耕作的時候可能它會附著一些沙土所以說它如果沒有適當的一個清洗的話那可能在金融單位它"},{"start":558.101,"end":584.424,"text":"會不喜歡去做回收所以我們農業部這邊是有有輔導那個循環場域先做清洗之後再由再利用單位來回收再利用是的確因為我們看到資料裡面這12000噸幾乎希望都能夠再利用再回收可是就好像您所提到的那如何能夠讓這個回收可以做得更好"},{"start":584.904,"end":607.69,"text":"我們也看到目前的困境這就是我們在2025年12月份透過我們所知的書面報告裡面看到的那今天的書面報告有提到目前的這些傳統農業塑膠再利用的情形就如你所提到沙土的雜質啦這個產源分散這個勤勉成本太高等等"},{"start":608.79,"end":633.165,"text":"尤其是在這個儲存空間不足的情形下導致我們目前看到的很不希望看到的這種對農土污染造成的影響這個是我們持續還希望在可以努力的部分那剛剛提到推動使用這個可分解的農業資產裡面其實的確我們看到有相關的進步的情形就是農糧署這邊輔導"},{"start":635.206,"end":655.516,"text":"嘉義縣的東石合作廠農場他們推出相關的一些因應的做法讓這個清洗的部分可以進化能夠讓整體的這個資材回收還有這個部分都可以做得更好那也除了相關的作業支援讓未來的這個處理可以更為優化"},{"start":656.617,"end":665.568,"text":"剛剛我們提到的是一萬兩千噸可是呢這個相關的東石的合作廠他們能夠去化每一年才兩千噸"},{"start":666.727,"end":689.972,"text":"所以可以理解還是有很大量的這個資源回收是沒有做好的那請問未來有沒有計畫針對這個類似的這種合作農場的設置可以繼續擴大因為這個部分是屬於地區性的使用那將來是不是在各個相關的農業線都可以"},{"start":691.292,"end":716.963,"text":"擴增類似的這個處理模式跟委員報告那我們在去年也有埔島那個南河縣埔里這邊也是有一個針對農業塑膠的一個清洗場域目前還在設置中那後續如果說其他縣市如果相關的一個做設廠要來協助做這個塑膠農畝清洗的工作的話我們會繼續來做協助"},{"start":718.904,"end":743.411,"text":"因為這個看起來是蠻需要的請問一下本部長,針對這個部分環境部有沒有跟農業部有更多的合作方案?第一個是說我們有發現有一些農模是用bio的可以分解的方式一種是分解,第二個是他們可以回收這個部分我們也會想辦法,我們其實有跨部會談過這個問題"},{"start":745.051,"end":762.612,"text":"那我未來因為在減塑的趨勢之下我們會想辦法來跟他們加速這整個過程的進行因為他們現在是有一些點在設置可是整個循環體系如何收集的完整這個可能還需要一些經濟的誘因才可以完成我們會來想辦法"},{"start":763.373,"end":789.748,"text":"是謝謝因為我來自農村所以對這個農業農土的污染真的非常非常的關注希望兩個部會持續來努力那最後一個簡單的部分就是謝謝環境部這邊針對這個蔬果標籤貼紙去樹的話我們去年有提出了相關的質詢那謝謝包括部長很關心這個議題那也在12月去年12月1號召集了相關的部會針對這個蔬果標籤去"},{"start":792.569,"end":800.823,"text":"的貼紙去做的話有做一些努力相關的部會包括食藥署、農業部還有環境部本身也做相關的應驗"},{"start":801.857,"end":823.452,"text":"那最後想要請教一下就是針對這個議題如何持續推動那不知道部長能不能夠如果有相關的這個後面持續的這個延伸報告的話那可以提供給我們來做一個參考可以沒問題這個在進行當中那之前有跟委員有跟您這邊報告過那後續的我們會再來持續進行"},{"start":824.252,"end":827.661,"text":"好 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兩位處長好今天是談到國園院SMR初期報告誤導視聽國科會應關注能源並且延伸補助計畫來 我先請教一下主委最近大家都在談能源 再進行下一個來 除了我剛剛問經濟委員會問經濟部中東戰事天然氣吃緊結果經濟部說除了中東之外我們要採購來分散到美國或其他地方你同意嗎"},{"start":34.294,"end":56.287,"text":"同意但是除了這個之外呢有人說這個電力供應要多元化我們不能電燃氣要光電跟地熱要加強開發你同意嗎這個我們都還要再研究再看看他的可行性但是電子產業來說新型核能也是選項什麼是新型核能我們來看一下這是前天有一個中央社的說台灣的小型模組化"},{"start":59.051,"end":78.303,"text":"核整的供應圖呢它SMR研究今年啟動最快2035年會發出第一度電我嚇一跳啊喔 這個叫做國家原子科技研究院表示已經初步盤點了三檔SMR的技術可以讓高階核肺大減於七成請問 主委有沒有看到這個報導"},{"start":80.329,"end":107.57,"text":"媒體的報導我沒有注意到那你知道國原院這個是什麼東東嗎國家原子能科技研究院它是有接受你們的補助我們是編科技上因為這個是那你覺得他這樣的一個報導是不是又符合我們總統所說的核廢要而解核安要確保社會有共識有符合在上條件嗎目前看他的資訊他現在就是要研究他的資訊目前有沒有"},{"start":108.407,"end":133.436,"text":"有沒有達到這三項標準啊?SMR有沒有達到?目前是有機會有機會,好來我看一下我來看一下主委是不知道什麼是SMR所謂的小型化合反應爐它的技術是來自於核子潛艦為什麼?美蘇兩戰時間要長期的躲在水底下不用換氣不用換燃料所以呢SMR在軍事上一次裝填直到這個潛艦退役是不是這樣子?"},{"start":134.236,"end":148.093,"text":"所以它體積小容易移動所以就有人想到了那如果潛艦可以用那我們是不是可以把它拖來過其他的供電使用所以就有一個SMR的售電服務它只買電力供應服務你不用處理什麼"},{"start":149.141,"end":176.932,"text":"核廢跟電廠主義的問題沒有核貨的問題主委這是不是你所知道的是目前在倡議的SMR它的來由跟它的原因受青睞的原因我的了解不是這個樣子那請問這SMR是什麼它為什麼在商業上可以來應用它的源頭是不是跟美國的核動力潛艦是來自於同一個源頭可能想法從那個地方開始但是真正技術的發展現在有好幾個新的技術那它真的可以把核廢壓縮減少七成以上嗎"},{"start":179.304,"end":187.09,"text":"這是有機會的,但是還要進一步去研究2035年之前可以做到因為報紙上這樣寫啊那您自己評估有沒有可能"},{"start":191.855,"end":210.63,"text":"是有機會因為現在是還在試驗的階段美國在試驗階段國科會剛剛提到國科會審查國務院的計畫掌握了這個內容沒有來往下看其實傳統核電跟ASMR重啟核電跟VS我們的機載傳統核電像牛棚的投手"},{"start":211.651,"end":232.919,"text":"當我戰況吃緊的時候我趕快請中繼投手來投個五球三球解決一兩個打者這個你很熟對不對那個是緊急備援的但是呢SMR被搶的什麼指定打擊每一場都上而且真的是威力很大所以呢一個是吃緊缺少的緊急備援一個是成本高但是可以供應穩定的電力供應是不是未來的應用是這樣思考"},{"start":234.551,"end":254.328,"text":"包含它的成本目前還很高所以說因為它的成本很高所以不是很多的產業都用得起我們來看一下哪些產業會把它當作基礎原理傳產毛利低它希望平衡的電力維持競爭力但是高科技產業毛利高它只要空電穩定它可以接受高電價 是不是這樣子"},{"start":256.703,"end":279.405,"text":"如果電價高的話的確會有這種事是的,所以就SMR來講在國內是高科技產業在期待但是傳產的對他們意義不大因為你電價太高了所以我是說國科會對於國園院他所研究的內容有沒有辦法掌握到這個SMR的購電價格有沒有辦法確定他的服務內容和後段有沒有爆發在內是不是還有簽約的對象目前這三個東西跑出來了嗎"},{"start":280.905,"end":300.582,"text":"還沒有,因為我們就是要先進行可行性研究所以我們是做可行性研究,我們會是未來的供應商嗎?不是吧?不是應該是其他有這個能力儲存這些封存後退役的這些SMR,他的國家才會提供我們要評估我們適不適合用人家在製作那個腦塞的藥,我們想說我們有那個卡生糖要吃嗎?是不是這樣?"},{"start":303.519,"end":317.639,"text":"這個比較粗俗一點啦所以說當這三個條件還沒有浮現之前我們敢說SMR在台灣可以解決產業的藍莓之急嗎現在還沒有這個結論是所以沒有購電價格產業沒有我要不要用你沒有"},{"start":318.942,"end":333.107,"text":"服務的內容沒有確定核後端是不包含在我們的業者使用的範圍也就是說核後端你自己提供服務者你自己處理我們台灣沒有辦法處理核廢料或者說沒有供應的簽約對象如果這三者沒有半個"},{"start":334.207,"end":353.035,"text":"那SMR在台灣的商業應用幾乎是不可能的你同不同意同意好謝謝好我們現在看所以請我們國科會做這個事情請調查一下國園院對外發布SMR這是初期媒體寫的這麼樣的白天正大國科會跟核安會一周內就你們部分提出說明好不好"},{"start":354.21,"end":366.704,"text":"好第二個國科會未來應該加強化我們審查能源計畫包括國園院SMR中長期的研究計畫是要你們積極辦理但是請你們要審慎發布研究成果可以嗎是沒問題好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168297","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168297","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/70d8fc05dcd8abb0e3bb86224a0a7bf3b9b76447cfe948db3efd812baa63ee582ae69a5bbf2089335ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"12:44:27 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污水處理設備這些自容室都已經做好了 對不對"},{"start":105.313,"end":130.393,"text":"是是做好一下就是連外道路一定要通好不然呢這個廠商進駐啊他的產能或者他的這個運作會受到很嚴重的影響也會影響到當地居民的這個交通權益這部分請主委請鄭局長來這個大力的這個跟國土署市政府協調進駐把它開配完成好我們會努力好我有兩分三十秒"},{"start":132.216,"end":139.985,"text":"來 第二個議題在70頁裡面提到推動台灣特色跟價值運動文化研究其中有一項促進運動產業的社會創新你們在114到115補助了九件計畫"},{"start":147.915,"end":149.457,"text":"特别是运动产业的社会创新"},{"start":167.869,"end":187.442,"text":"運動產業一定要用政府資源政策協助運動產業才會發展十年前我們職棒的這個每場入場人數大概只有幾千人現在每一場都這樣您也是棒球選手對不對 諸位職棒是十幾年來透過政府成立運動部然後引進更多的這個資源球場改善"},{"start":188.462,"end":207.288,"text":"才會讓這個職業運動的產業能夠蓬勃發展所以職棒已經站好腳步了接著職籃 職牌是職足日本職足啊職業足大概是20年前才開始推動但是現在每一場職足的比賽入場人數都超過職棒"},{"start":209.049,"end":220.616,"text":"這個政策去引導資源去藝術然後用政府的力量扶持整個運動產業的發展我覺得國會做事相關的研究正規劃我覺得非常非常有意義"},{"start":222.069,"end":241.851,"text":"謝謝委員肯定那你的想法呢我是非常認同我們希望把運動變成我們文化一部分所以運動部成立以後其實國會也一直在協助運動部看看能不能發展相關的產業跟文化結合在一起讓這個產業發展以後政府的負擔就不用那麼高"},{"start":243.173,"end":269.452,"text":"產業發展讓民間自動自發改天啦 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現在任何一個鄉鎮其實我在想都會有所謂閒職的這個爭議的問題那以現在呢"},{"start":106.995,"end":122.394,"text":"類似去化來講的話是不是真的只有焚化物這一圖還是說其實我們還可以有多元的這個處理方式那尤其是像南投縣南投縣像過去的話說實在我們所看到的他每天每天的一般廢棄物的這個生產的這個總計其實是有635公噸"},{"start":127.219,"end":144.365,"text":"那其中呢這個資源回收呢是351公噸那除以16公噸那巨大再利用的是9公噸那要處理的一般垃圾呢其實是259公噸那我們所知道就是說其實外送到其他縣市去處理的每日處理能力呢其實只有161噸那每天的這個垃圾的這個處理缺口是高達98噸的那再加上呢現在全縣的站制總量呢是高達32.7萬噸"},{"start":156.249,"end":174.933,"text":"像這樣子的狀況那垃圾的這個處理我想請教部長我們有怎麼樣的一個建議除了焚化爐之外我們還有怎麼樣的一個處理方式尤其我本席所了解的就是說像我們南投縣的這個資源回收率是全國倒數第五的"},{"start":175.633,"end":189.103,"text":"而且是低於全國的平均量那廚餘的處理也是這樣子所以表示說過去南投縣政府環保局對於處理這個一般廢棄物的態度是消極的所以我想請教"},{"start":190.704,"end":217.9,"text":"部長那我們今天討論的是資源回收的這個議題在這個部分部長你有怎麼樣的建議我建議說其實南投在源頭減量部分真的可以再加強因為他如果說以當然台北市是最高的到67左右那如果他可以往上提升他就可以顯著的這個減少這個原來的這個垃圾的量這個是顯著的可能會少個幾十噸那另外一個部分就是說如果垃圾分類的好"},{"start":218.28,"end":241.255,"text":"或是說這個無法處理的垃圾再經過一些篩分處理有變成不一樣的熱值那很多人簡化成是SRF啦這也是一種方式無人頭減量最後末端的處理再精進當然要有沒有這個自己的自主處理設施那個可以再討論因為有選址的問題或方法的問題其實我是覺得都是可以有一種答案讓大家來做選擇"},{"start":242.702,"end":258.222,"text":"所以部長你也覺得說像這個源頭資源回收率我剛有提到就是說南投的資源回收率其實只有55.24%他是低於全國平均值的57.03%那如果是說比如說台北市的話其實他是比這個台北市呢"},{"start":258.622,"end":284.103,"text":"差了十幾個百分點這表示說這個部分其實還有努力的這個空間這表示說它過去它是做得不夠的是這個部分那我想請教一下環境部這部分的話有沒有要來做一個輔導南條縣政府環保局如果不知道怎麼做不會做那環保局算環保署像過去以來的話有沒有在這方面提供他們這個意見因為我知道說焚化爐的議題可能會是很漫長的"},{"start":288.106,"end":310.739,"text":"去到任何一個縣市大家其實都會有意見所以我們比較是希望朝向多元處理的這方式那環境部其實是可以提供很多的意見給南投縣環保局的那我不曉得說像過去的話至於他們的態度是什麼我想請教一下這過去因為長久以來這個我們補助給他們很多協助他們來做轉運的工作那其實這個部分"},{"start":312.02,"end":338.673,"text":"每年就幾千萬幾千萬過去那可能呢他就會養成了一個習慣就靠別人依賴性就夠了那如果說自己必須要去面對處理尤其是他現在還有32萬噸在那個地方我認為他可以再更積極一點那如果他們需要我們再大力的協助指導或是動員下去因為這個垃圾減量不是政府喊一喊而是全民縣民要全部動起來我認為南投的確還有那個空間可以再減少的"},{"start":339.338,"end":352.17,"text":"是 其實這個垃圾山我們也知道已經到了這個臨界點確實需要要去做處理可是我們所知道的就是說其實像過去為什麼會累積這麼多的生產量其實跟南投縣環保局的處理態度有很大的關係就是因為過去我們中央都會替他們來處理再運到別的縣市去照著他們其實是消極的"},{"start":363.601,"end":384.321,"text":"那既然這樣子的話我是希望說往後如果環保環境部這一邊的話可以提供這個專業的意見給他們因為我本身一直認為說其實焚花爐絕對不是唯一的途徑應該是用多元的方式來處理就像我們之前所討論的雞尾酒療法的這種多元的方式我想站在環境部的這個專業來講的話"},{"start":387.183,"end":409.428,"text":"應該給予南投縣環保局更多的建議跟意見是 沒錯 我們會來協助如果他們提出一個要求的話我們也會希望他們在這段時間溝通的過程當中能夠讓社會大眾能夠信賴能夠更充分的覺得如何去處置會更好要走出自己的一條路OK 好 以上謝謝謝謝部長好 謝謝羅美玲委員發言"}]}},{"id":"168289","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168289","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/70d8fc05dcd8abb0fa60e394ff55abc9a7afadf2dd1952ec3efd812baa63ee58c83aa5707098847e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐富癸","委員發言時間":"12:23:37 - 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抱歉抱歉你讓我嚇了一跳好 謝謝我們羅昭偉主席 謝謝我們請我們的吳主委 謝謝"},{"start":22.763,"end":42.565,"text":"好 主委好 謝謝本席今天因為在這個總質詢有提到原住民科技教育的這一個推動方向所以今天也就兩個層面來跟您這邊做個討論那第一個部分就是如何讓原住民在研究的這個部分呢從一貫的這個客體那成為一個主體"},{"start":43.286,"end":63.835,"text":"那第二個部分就是說如何透過國家的一個政策推動然後來培育在地的原住民的科學人才這個是今天兩個主題那本席還是非常感謝您到任的時候已經把在國科會裡面人文社會科學裡面原住民的一個研究原本只有整合型"},{"start":64.315,"end":86.706,"text":"那已經又讓個別型的這樣研究能夠來進行那但是因為在各大學的這個收穩常常在那個整合型跟研究型的一個方向上你們又希望大家做這個族群研究跟這個就是族群研究關係那所以我是希望這個部分能夠拿掉能夠讓大家更自由的在研究的層面能夠做一些發展"},{"start":87.947,"end":104.366,"text":"這個部分是本席希望你們能夠做的那在本席上期對於原住民族研究的理解其實我們都一直還是在人文社會的框架但是整個原住民族知識體系的科學內涵其實有它的一個價值"},{"start":106.028,"end":119.426,"text":"但這樣的情形其實原民會也有注意到在110年到114年在建構原住民族教育文化知識體系當中的中長城計畫也提到譬如說亞美族的這個海洋知識在他蘊藏的這個魚種的分類傳統的習慣"},{"start":123.351,"end":143.694,"text":"跟生產的技術都沒有被列入到關聯的生物學或漁業科學的研究領域裡面所以本期這邊提出一個在國際間原住民在科學研究領域裡面的一些例子來供你們參考在生態治理上生物科學期刊在Bioscience的2020年的文獻裡面其實有提到"},{"start":144.255,"end":164.125,"text":"那麼美洲原住民的傳統的一個捕魚方式能夠維持鮭魚的一個族群穩定那它的永續的效果呢也優於現代大規模的商業捕撈那這個是科學相關的這個研究另外在農業上那美洲原住民的這個三姊妹的混作系統那利用植物的互補關係也被"},{"start":166.968,"end":180.966,"text":"認為能夠提高產量跟土地的一個利用效率但是這裡面都不是只有文化研究而是已經到了自然科學的一個領域所以國科會在推動這個原住民族的研究計畫的時候是不是可以把這個知識"},{"start":182.308,"end":196.573,"text":"不要再一直定位在只有人文社會科學那在科學知識體系的角度也能夠來這樣看待它所以本席這邊來請教就第一個部分是就剛才我所講的人文社會科學領域在族群"},{"start":197.293,"end":216.743,"text":"只有研究族群關係這樣一個方向是不是能夠稍微解構讓大家在人文社會科學不管在整合型跟個別型都可以自由的來做相關的研究這是第一個部分那第二個部分是在你們的115年的整合性計畫有沒有明確的機制來鼓勵原住民族參與"},{"start":217.583,"end":244.64,"text":"自然科學的研究那比如說生態氣候變遷農業科技材料科學等等而不是只有在人文學科就比較具體一點然後在原住民的這個概念上也能夠被比較實務上的一個羅列那第三個部分是在推動跨領域的這個整合型研究上是不是有意識的能夠促進讓原住民族的知識跟現代科學來進行共同研究而不是單向的被研究"},{"start":245.18,"end":270.189,"text":"那這個部分是不是可以請主委給我一個回應委員剛剛提到的幾點我都蠻認同的所以第一點就是說有關原住民族學者的研究不一定要限定在只是在研究原住民的文化還是族群的問題那剛剛舉的這個例子我覺得很好所以我想我們人文處這邊應該"},{"start":272.41,"end":286.52,"text":"我想這個部分應該是相對很具體很簡單就是把那個方向是不是更開放一點把那個帽子不要一直蓋在那個研究的方向上但是如果是要保障我們原住民的學者的話我們還是得要在一個某種範圍之內"},{"start":288.021,"end":308.041,"text":"不然的話所有的學者 其實我們自然處各個領域大家都可以參與對 人文社會上應該是要這樣子一個保障但是那個自然科學我覺得是不是可以有一些機制就像本席所講的第二跟第三點如何讓原住民來參與而不是只有被研究所以這個是需要一點時間來做討論的"},{"start":309.963,"end":338.121,"text":"他們參與從來沒有限制過所有的學者都可以參與我們國會所有的領域的計畫所以為了促進這個科技人才的一個發展所以是不是可以再討論一些比較更細緻的方式來鼓勵原住民的學者在這一些內容上有更多更主體性的一個參與我們是可以從現在的這個機制來鼓勵他們也提醒他們說不是只有研究現有的這個範圍"},{"start":340.042,"end":361.737,"text":"也就是在生物跟科技上那都可以設計出來一些機制來做相關的獨立好不好自然科學包含物理化學生物等等那個領域另外一個就是剛剛委員有提到就是跨領域的這種合作一個是我們整合型計畫裡面也可以有這種跨領域這應該都沒問題"},{"start":363.098,"end":389.297,"text":"好那是不是就請那個會裡面就更具體的就這個部分來做一些討論好不好是是我跟委員報告就是說其實我們已經在會裡面包括邀請相關的專家還有我們會裡面跨處的協調我們預計在明年度我們就會整合自然處還有工程處還有生科處跟人文然後去回應剛剛委員所提到的規劃很具體的主題"},{"start":391.058,"end":404.748,"text":"這樣挺好的所以本席這邊也就做一個中整希望你們能夠設計專門支持原住民族的這個自然科學的一個整合型的計畫然後第二個部分是跨領域的機制要推動原住民的知識共同的一個生產"},{"start":405.689,"end":430.511,"text":"那第三個部分是那怎麼樣來將原住民的知識系統更具體的連結到生物氣候農業的科學這個領域那希望你們這個部分能夠有更具體的一些作為跟計畫還有會議的一些相關的資料本行會後也會再跟你們做一些索取那這個是第一個部分那第二個部分本行很快也就是你們目前有這個發射場"},{"start":432.433,"end":457.719,"text":"那目前應該是在南回屏東這邊那有沒有機會透過這樣一個太空發展的政策來落實在地人才培育跟區域的一個平衡也就是我們依據太空發展法的第十四條跟第七款那來結合在地的供應鏈營造更友善的一個環境那本席在這邊就為原住民來做一個發聲那我們知道你們的基地會在旭海附近"},{"start":458.339,"end":479.606,"text":"那麼我們有沒有可能在這個建立一個南回太空產業人才培育的基地然後從國中高中到科技技職教育做系統性的銜接本行業會在相關的不同的單位裡面來做嫁接跟這個媒合那我們希望能夠在國中的階段就可以透過國科會來補助"},{"start":481.506,"end":498.053,"text":"國家太空中心跟大學的團隊來擴大推動行動火箭的一個實驗室到原鄉的學校然後讓學生從小就有接觸太空的一個機會來培養興趣那高中呢就可以在平刻時鐘應該是你們目前會有一些連結的"},{"start":499.133,"end":527.347,"text":"在這個基礎上也來串接花東地區的一個學校讓課程能夠在這個複合的材料電子通訊跟無人機方面還有火箭維修我想原住民的技術層面也是蠻強的所以這個部分是不是就可以做這樣一個嫁接所以第一個部分是國會會可不可以依據太空發展法的一個授權來規劃類似像這樣一個區域型人才的培育基地而不是很零散的只有科普活動"},{"start":527.967,"end":549.074,"text":"那第二個部分是那你們在目前補助航太研究的計畫是不是有機制要求學界來回饋地方那這個回饋地方的方式就比如說讓教授或研究團隊定期的進入南回相關的學校來進行培育而不是只有留在大學體系那這個部分是不是可以請主委這邊做個回應"},{"start":550.494,"end":578.792,"text":"謝謝委員我想這個建議很好了我們人才培育是全國性的不會只限定在一個區域但是對於我們在花東地區因為南邊還有屏東也延續到花東地區因為有我們的火箭化石產業因為這個南回其實也有一些通路我會請我們的太空中心來思考一下怎麼樣結合當地的大學來帶頭然後擴散到中小學來培育其實也不一定當地的大學而已"},{"start":579.232,"end":603.222,"text":"就像國科會裡面的各處是研究的這個團體對 因為基地的關係啦 他們要帶頭去做這個然後我們的學者是全國性的全國性的學者跟那個團隊其實也都可以一起來做長期的合作然後跟地方政府的合作我們也會做我們太空中心也會做將來這個人才培育的基地因為如果需要編列相關的這個經費"},{"start":604.082,"end":625.534,"text":"我們也會來協助所以希望能夠藉這樣一個科技發展的這個計畫太空的計畫然後讓這個屏東 花東都有機會來參與我們國家最前端的一個科技 好不好相關的科普的部分我們科國處也會來協助不是只有科普也要更專業一點從小學一直到從小就是科普對 小朋友不可能專業一定是科普大學就是專業但是要帶動中小學科普的教育對對好 謝謝主委好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168287","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168287","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/70d8fc05dcd8abb00c42bf037786b68701ae777e4c72867e3efd812baa63ee58b328fc7562c8dfc65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"12:20:48 - 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難為 我盡量的能夠把握時間來有請我們環境部的彭部長有請彭部長委員好部長等一下 因為還沒上線等一下"},{"start":23.572,"end":48.357,"text":"統籌各部會穩工跟減瘦配合建立公尿順位及提升再生尿的循環我接下來的問題剛好可以滿足剛剛來不及跟紅委員回覆的我先請教部長你有沒有聽過這種瘦瘦針有打下去一針就見效一個月可以減一公斤那請問你可以控制他減哪裡嗎他整個壓抑你的食慾讓你強制減重對不對對這是個總量的減禮但是有人去健身他說什麼雕塑"},{"start":49.517,"end":71.946,"text":"該減的地方減,不該減的地方還是要擴張的機率,是不是?是好,所以我覺得我們的減瘦啊,不能從瘦瘦症的總量,要從什麼?健身雕塑來上,往下看來,平常減瘦跟非常瘦的線瘦,平常我們減瘦,你目前是採取總額目標管理嘛,5%、10%你們定目標嘛但是在非常時期的線瘦,我們有沒有提供一個配額給不同的需求者?"},{"start":72.964,"end":98.802,"text":"然後我再往下看你可能還在疑惑來我認為環境部應該跨部會趁著這次危機不要浪費任何一次危機農業部有沒有用資材農業的資材有沒有用塑有嘛衛生部有沒有用醫材有啊你的點滴你現在用玻璃瓶吊點滴還是用塑膠瓶吊點滴塑膠瓶嘛經濟部有沒有包材物流業者要什麼包裝嘛請問你覺得哪一個最重要如果要定優先順位的話"},{"start":99.602,"end":125.295,"text":"必要性跟急迫性必要性的話如果可以做的話應該是經濟部跟農業部經濟部跟農業部的包裁或是資產這個可以剪可以剪醫材要優先供應對醫材優先供應好請問衛福部環境部那你們平常有對這些使用塑料的這些材料有去進行一些用途別的管控跟用量的掌握以及它的急迫性跟缺口性的排序嗎"},{"start":126.415,"end":139.731,"text":"包委員 目前沒有很好 我這樣一句話就夠了目前沒有 以後要有來往下看其實我們塑膠原物料的管理應該有一個全社會防衛的一個韌性的概念非防時期我料進不來了本來需要100只進來了60那我要分配給誰"},{"start":143.596,"end":164.886,"text":"我不是叫他一律檢打六折欸我要有系列的去分配所以呢包括在美國在國防生產法在歐盟他有一個關鍵原物料法案他都對這些事情有所規範部長可不可以去參考一下好可以我們塑膠的確沒有放在這裡面你好所以呢我接下來要問的是接下來下一頁就是環境部的總量分配資材 醫材跟包材"},{"start":166.047,"end":188.366,"text":"不能夠是打瘦瘦針一樣我現在料不夠啦我全部都給我縮幾層不是 而是怎樣要有源頭的管制管制的內容還要很重要的甚至要鼓勵回收再生料 對不對進來的新的沒進來就得繼續用看怎麼回收使用所以目前這一次雖然是中共的戰火讓我們在進原料的部分受到"},{"start":189.066,"end":206.842,"text":"減工 但是你要穩工 還要怎樣 還要配合減塑所以剛剛集會委員知道 我認為部長講得很好 沒有衝突是併工的 是要穩工 但是要減塑但是你要什麼 你要不同用途類別的Priority優先順位的排序 跟他分別配合的管制思考"},{"start":207.202,"end":234.563,"text":"部長有沒有辦法做到這一點這個我們會來研究因為委員提到建議比較好因為我們現在全面性的做的確會遇到一些瓶頸那委員如果對症下藥譬如說減了一個那是有用的好所以我來跟你講我是來自農業縣其實我們農業在進行再生料的循環我們一方面減料一方面回收還要用什麼二次的使用的再生料其實農業部他要回收農磨要清洗要再利用這個有沒有得到環境部的支持"},{"start":236.943,"end":253.842,"text":"有沒有有 這個我們有在那個跟農業部一起推動是然後再生料的話現在有建立這個二次料的一個平台對 我跟你講一下署長 部長我上次有為了一個農藥的包裝我有提到農藥的包裝回收很困難再製的原"},{"start":254.543,"end":273.111,"text":"那個再生料它成本要高過去由於中國的經濟內捲它大量的塑膠原料低價傾銷所以進口的原生料比國內的再生料還要便宜很多結果再生料沒有人買資源回收做得下去嗎做不下去那請問環境部拿出什麼對策拿出什麼對策是不是你要有政策補貼是不是你要強制或鼓勵導入是不是這樣有沒有打算這樣做"},{"start":283.4,"end":308.511,"text":"我們是從這個 我們的一個回收基金的回收費裡面來做這個做法是 署長 這個我們都是要討論過了是 要讓部長知道 你要指示我們署長是有關於政策補貼跟強制或鼓勵導入環境部要拿出資源出來 才有辦法各部會聽你的啊你不能告各部會說 我給你總量管制 你配合多少 驗性是怎麼樣你同時要拿出什麼"},{"start":309.246,"end":328.975,"text":"棒子之外有胡蘿蔔 你的胡蘿蔔在哪裡可以 我們現在其實目前我們的循環法裡面未來的這個東西會統一的來管理所以這個部分我們贊同委員的看法可以蘿蔔的部分可以更多一點點好 那最後的結論時間到了來 結論結論就是請環境部會同經濟部 衛福部跟農業部"},{"start":330.029,"end":344.836,"text":"提供各部會塑膠原料的需求他的優先順位清單也請讓你們設定主動減速的目標以及被動危機時候來臨的配額兩道邏輯 可不可以去做可以 沒問題好 另外請農業部盤點農業再生資產的獎勵或補助計畫當他們提出來的時候請環境部也要去支持好不好好 沒問題那這兩個結論什麼時候可以給我"},{"start":355.705,"end":361.694,"text":"兩個月 兩個月沒問題 空白支票讓你們簽 兩個月就兩個月好 謝謝 謝謝部長 謝謝委員 謝謝好 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是不是有請中郵的方董事長有請中郵方董事長"},{"start":20.37,"end":48.711,"text":"董事長早剛剛前面很多委員都提到這個董事長非常辛苦因為現在累積的虧損其實蠻高的大家其實對這個中油現在為了要這個便宜物價的這個狀況做出一些可能你們的考量不過今天討論ART的部分你們這個好像要跟美國買400多億你們的報告上面寫的是444億美金的這個"},{"start":49.952,"end":74.061,"text":"LNG跟原油嗎?LNG的大概有多少?你們是寫跟原油嗎?186的樣子因為現在國的指數只有不少,大概不到一半不過因為現在國內等一下可能要談一下能源政策因為LNG對我們來說非常重要從這次美伊的戰爭就可以看出來"},{"start":75.501,"end":89.842,"text":"因為這件事情其實跟當初中油一直想要做投資這件事情其實一直大家覺得到底兩者有沒有關係因為當初本來說美國好像是要我們去投資嘛跟這個日韓不曉得這兩件事情也都是跟阿拉斯加嘛那不曉得這兩件事情有沒有關聯性"},{"start":91.619,"end":118.137,"text":"對 就是在去年3月20號我們跟美方簽了這個意向書嘛對這意向書裡面有兩項的主題一個是投資 一個是採購LNG對所以投資的部分也在這個內涵裡面是所以現在整個我們大概現在看起來是要買大概600萬最高600對 那相對來說當初好像說這條管線是大概2000萬噸對不對所以我們大概就佔了600嘛"},{"start":121.036,"end":142.06,"text":"對 它整個生產量是2000萬噸沒有錯對 所以現在投資的部分跟那個採購的部分到底狀況是怎麼樣目前就是採購的部分目前就這個採購簽約雙方在洽議當中美方那邊是希望能夠在今年年底以前能夠把這個採購簽約能夠談完"},{"start":144.921,"end":171.762,"text":"那投資還要繼續做嗎?那個MOU的部分投資的部分目前就是周圍公司還在評估啦但是現在問題就是在於說我們沒有收到他給我們的一些詳細的內容資料所以我們沒辦法去評估說這個投資有沒有他的一個效益目前還等待他最後的資料所以現在投資基本搞不清楚所以我們現在採購上是合乎效益的嗎?就是跟阿拉斯加買我們現在比例可以拉到好像30幾%嘛對不對?"},{"start":175.229,"end":184.976,"text":"到2029年跟美國買的天然氣我們希望能夠到達25%左右對 量會比較大一點這樣子對於中油的過去整個營運來說跟美國買LNG是經過成本的評估嗎還是因為要簽ART所以必須要做這樣的採購"},{"start":196.643,"end":219.163,"text":"在我想我们就是说我们中国是国营事业嘛采购任何东西都要依据采购法所以在做来源的选择上一定是要做一个评比那么如果说从美国来的天然气呢在当时的环境里面它是具有市场竞争力的话当然是我们一个很重要的一个考虑选项目"},{"start":219.403,"end":240.203,"text":"好 所以LNG我們現在看起來會慢慢的如果美國這個管道是OK的話會越來越充足嘛 是那這個能源上也就是說它可以提供不管是我們發電啦或是其他的用途啦會更有安全性的這個整個儲備是嗎不過現在是11天那未來採光的美國部分會提高我們的這個準備嗎"},{"start":241.965,"end":249.675,"text":"這個是跟國內的儲槽現有的儲槽的容積夠不夠有很大的關係所以目前來講國內的安全存在規定是11天那明年的話會提升到14天"},{"start":258.507,"end":286.636,"text":"所以就是因為這樣的採購所以我們國內的一些基礎建設變成要去新要去增加或是擴建所以這個基本上在LNG比較充足的狀況應該發電的狀況燃煤的話就會比較OK嗎台電的部分台電的董事長很簡單的因為今天這個麥寮這邊我想很多委員都在問是不是還有其必要"},{"start":288.021,"end":304.501,"text":"我們現在跟委員報告幾個時候第一個就是因應中東的狀況現在亞洲很多國家都在啟用燃煤機組甚至連德國也在做這件事那第二個事情我們就是做好準備因為因應所有的狀況我們就是把準備做好"},{"start":306.249,"end":332.765,"text":"所以這個麥良其實因為我也從中部來今天有人來開記者會其實大家對這件事非常非常關注我希望LNG在有中油的規劃之後是不是台電在燃煤的基礎上因為剛剛說還沒有招標也沒有還沒開始希望多一點為中部的我們居民的健康多一點考慮跟委員報告我們有一個規劃我們希望就是總燃煤量在不增加的狀況下把基礎來做開起來做調節好 感謝"}]}},{"id":"168285","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168285","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/70d8fc05dcd8abb00f4cff56266bf05d01ae777e4c72867e3efd812baa63ee584999303e8e406dd25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"12:08:17 - 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感謝主席 我們請彭部長有請彭部長"},{"start":12.242,"end":37.862,"text":"侯委好部長好部長兩個議題第一土方之亂從今年的一月開始到現在真的到現在大家還是覺得是說還是有沒有辦法去化的一個問題那尤其是土方處理費我們聽說是已經飆漲了五六倍之多那現在的問題點在於是你盤點了應該內政部負責還是應該環境部負責但你盤點了一些去化的地點到最後"},{"start":38.903,"end":61.843,"text":"找不到合格的土方回收場那就變成是說找相關的填海造陸的部分所以本席的台北港也被點名了那現在新北市府這邊說有規劃要做一個戰製場但地方的鄉親反彈會以及說懷疑說到底戰製場還是永久場未來會不會放在那邊戰製然後就變永久之後所有土方全部都來這邊來做一個去化"},{"start":62.563,"end":86.839,"text":"部長是不是可以說明一下因為其實土方做不行啦不然的話每天我們都一直看到氣質北部往中南部到中南部往南部到所以這個是一直國人的痛啦幾十年來沒有解決問題所以我們很認真的要去解決我們看到很多非法的土方氣質不管是高雄不管是台南地方政府當然要去追查啊不要說有包庇啊不要上下其手但是這一個部分我現在"},{"start":87.439,"end":109.998,"text":"非法的部分我們一定強烈要求要取締這沒有問題沒有人要掩護非法但現在是你們倉促上路的政策結果到最後變成是我們地方要來接收這些原本不在我們的土方好那來即便是來那你說戰制我有查到一個資料說你說一年內可以戰制完畢等於是說戰制場工程生退"},{"start":110.919,"end":131.002,"text":"我想請教因為我們到地方的時候問他沒有辦法有一個明確的保證是說戰事只有一年好包圍因為這個最主要是這個台北港喔他如果要填土方的話那個需要環評還有一些程序那個還有一點時間所以那個時間差裡面他先開了一塊可以做戰事場跟台北跟新北來做一個使用所以目前這是一個戰事而已"},{"start":132.423,"end":159.394,"text":"兩個部分台北港現在聽說有要再跟環境部申請環評還要再增加填海的量從原本的好像400萬噸要變成500萬噸這是台北港他們要去送可是另外一個部分是我們也看到那就變成是說量會集中會更大那我們要看到的另外一個部分是那戰制場到底要戰制多久戰制通常就是等那個環評過了他可以開始填埋的時候再行處理"},{"start":160.094,"end":171.799,"text":"所以如果說現在我那我這樣子我直接比較明確的講因為現在地方政府沒有辦法跟我們承諾那如果說我們這個戰制下去了那未來一年內有沒有辦法他就可以攻城深退"},{"start":174.35,"end":189.927,"text":"跟委員這邊報告那我想土方目前因為現在突然之間的量變大那我們現在已經努力他不是量變大是突然之間你們政策改了然後又沒有配套措施所以說土方沒地方去沒有因為說台灣突然間量"},{"start":190.808,"end":209.069,"text":"增出來量都是那麼多只是過去大家不願意處理那沒關係你要處理可是你也要想出配套措施而不是突然間1月1號開始執行然後就變成是大家要幫忙擦屁股那個不能這樣說我們廢棄物土方都有管制土方是沒有管制所以我們土方有管制合理"},{"start":210.29,"end":230.396,"text":"那就過去好不管是藍營有執政過綠營也執政過但綠營現在也執政10年了你突然間2026年1月1號是說你們換了一個新制度然後讓他變成是土方大家全部都要面對這個問題台灣是我們大家共同的土地但我現在要問的是原本他要"},{"start":230.936,"end":249.051,"text":"在其他地方處理合格的土地等等的那現在很大部分雙北至少第一階段雙北的公共工程的土方就要來台北港嘛那現在台北港外有一個戰制場一直講說戰制那我們要問的是戰制要戰制多久"},{"start":250.403,"end":269.011,"text":"跟委員這邊報告因為我們現在主要是穩定它的數量因為台北港進港的數量每天是有限量的一個有一個限量有一個上限那我們現在先而且現在台北港它的收土量也有增加的一個"},{"start":270.311,"end":290.112,"text":"額度進去了 那所以說慢慢的我們現在戰事場只是先讓土方突然就是目前正在開發的土方有一個先戰事的地方讓工程不要終止造成公共危害的情形所以戰事場只是一個臨時的一個功能而已 對吧"},{"start":291.072,"end":316.899,"text":"你講的都是我的問題我現在就說 臨時的公路我們都理解但是你那些土方原本不在那個地方那你現在在巴黎地區找了一塊空地而且那一塊空地以往還是算所謂的濕地喔但你們現在把它搞出來之後然後就現在要來做這個站制那站制還要在那邊破碎等於是有比較大塊的那些混凝土你要在那邊用怪手把它破碎所以也會造成飛塵跟噪音嘛"},{"start":317.939,"end":342.855,"text":"完了之後再送進台北港去做填土但我們現在要問的是好 臨時那為什麼不能說在港區裡面為什麼要在外面距離民宅比較近這是一點那選地本來就有問題那另外一點本期更要問的是那你臨時你可以多久因為部長之前有講過說有信心一年之內所有戰事場就可以退場嘛那我們現在要問是說這個承諾還算不算"},{"start":344.045,"end":353.97,"text":"還是你下去之後永久變成是巴黎民眾以後就要跟這個戰事場共存你就戰事就不叫戰事你就變成是永久土方處理廠"},{"start":355.927,"end":383.451,"text":"那只是名字好聽而已那這樣我們民眾怎麼有辦法接受目前雙北的部分就是台北港的部分目前是預計一年一年那一年到了好因為現在我知道四月雙北地區公共工程也有壓力所以說他們也希望能夠競速那如果假設這樣的話明年四月可以退場那我們要問的是說明年四月退場的機制在哪邊是以後明年四月就不用再破碎了可以直接就進台北港直接到"},{"start":384.934,"end":403.025,"text":"現在就是台北港的量如果足夠進去的話那當然這邊的戰資場的數量就可以慢慢的去化掉了那目前我們預估是一年因為我們現在都已經在尋求更多的土資場讓他可以收集更多的量好來那部長謝謝部長"},{"start":405.146,"end":427.245,"text":"這算是你的承諾嗎明年的這時候不用我再回來的時候還看到那個地方還在營運這個是國土署在處理的但是我們會密切注意這個東西因為他們現在是卡在環評環評大概要一段時間然後才能夠一年後才把那開出來誰卡在環評呃他的台北港要台北港卡在環評台北港的到因為本時有聽到消息是台北港現在也要送環評申請從400萬變500萬那假設"},{"start":430.908,"end":450.951,"text":"一樣是在我們環評委員的這個專業評估判斷下認為可行那這個土方的戰志場就可以退場 是 是不是好 所以本席現在先確認因為要讓我們地方知道是說這個戰志不是永久不要到時候變成是你設了之後 欸乞丐感妙工到之後變成是民眾要跟你這個忍受啊"},{"start":452.298,"end":472.464,"text":"本席一年的時間本席一定會追這個進度而且這個也算是我們中央部會的承諾請一定要繼續做到 包委員這個也要地方單位要很努力來支持所以新北市也有一個平台所以這個是中央跟地方協力在做的台北新北當然都支持所以說現在新北已經把 支持也要來做喔新北已經把地都貢獻出來還不算支持嗎"},{"start":473.504,"end":493.004,"text":"那個地 照理講那個地算是不管是中央也好 地方也好我們現在地方是承受台灣 北台灣的這個戰志嘛那我們現在要的是說你們的政策不能倉促上路之後到最後我們找一塊地然後要幫你變戰志的地方然後結果遙遙無期到時候這個地方就變成是永久的戰志區"},{"start":494.786,"end":509.776,"text":"這個是本席一定要提醒的來 那第二個部分因為本席剛剛講兩個問題 不好意思因為剛剛這個回答比較久一點我再點一下一個時間是 剛剛林淑芬委員講那麼久你這樣子 主席你真的是很大小眼"},{"start":511.377,"end":531.975,"text":"本委跟外委那都一樣我們都是委員同仁我們的問題那麼的重要如果說你連多一分鐘兩分鐘當然可以馬上沒有問題部長現在有反應是說民眾都買不到14公升的環保袋那我覺得這可能跟經濟部有相關"},{"start":532.836,"end":558.277,"text":"那我現在想要確認一下因為經濟部他現在要解決這問題明明一開始跟我們講說中東戰火或是說這個相關原物料都說沒有缺乏但現在經濟部想要解決問題反而是說要增量5000噸的平價塑膠袋那是不是又跟我們的這個減速訴求又有相抵觸那到底現在我們的塑膠袋有沒有缺有沒有人囤積有沒有這個相關供貨的問題對"},{"start":561.958,"end":576.555,"text":"目前這個雙北市的這個市府的這個付費的垃圾袋是沒有問題的但民眾有反應有買不到那個其實是在整個供應鏈裡面對好那另外一部分經濟部現在說要宣布增產5000噸的平價塑膠袋"},{"start":579.67,"end":593.743,"text":"那我們到底想問的是你一方面跟我們講說原料沒有問題一方面跟我們講供貨沒有問題但是你現在又說我要宣布要增加五千噸的平價塑膠袋那不就跟我們減數的政策又背道而馳沒有沒有那到底你們環境部跟經濟部兩個是怎麼樣來溝通"},{"start":595.905,"end":609.59,"text":"第一個是民眾的日常生活當中最後一里路這個攤販夜市等等他需要一種所提的塑膠袋那的確有些可能在供貨有預期心理之下他會搶購所以造成沒有是他們是安定人心那對我們來說當然是推動減塑啊"},{"start":611.502,"end":629.793,"text":"所以大力在推動啊所以我現在要問的是說像這個五千噸的塑膠袋它會是最後一波嗎還是說這未來變成是常態還是你要無限量五萬噸五千噸有多少呢12.5億個因為已經超過五分鐘了12.5億個跟委員說明因為過去除了有國內生產所以現在是為了要後面委員要趕行程"},{"start":636.917,"end":662.895,"text":"所以現在是委員敢形成我當然考慮啊所以說你如果說召委你要召委如果說你要這樣子控管的話那應該就是從源頭管理每一位委員都有一定的標準嘛我當然互相但是我現在是你看現在官員要講然後就被人打斷那其實官員這一些時間早就官員就可以講完咧不是嗎來一分鐘一句話簡單說明一下你們現在到底是跟委員報告現在"},{"start":664.575,"end":679.651,"text":"現在是那個短期在應急而已啦不是一個常態性的這跟委員說一個所以會不會還有再增加的一個政策目前的是這個狀況啦當然還要看國際局勢又看國際局勢又不是自由掌握"},{"start":681.172,"end":695.829,"text":"本席再次強調如果說要的話政府是一體的應該政策要一致性而不是每一次又跟我們講這一套但是做得又一套讓民眾無所適從我想這才是本席今天才提出的問題不會無所適從這是兩個不一樣政策的問題"},{"start":698.132,"end":723.235,"text":"本席想要結束這個質詢是因為本席還對你的專業有尊重但如果說你每一次都要用這種強化的方式或是說你每次都要因為本席現在就看到民眾的反應是最直接的嘛過去一個月就是有發生很多的塑膠袋之亂過去一個月就是有很多民眾都說買不到塑膠袋過去的一個月就是看到經濟部一方面又講是說沒有缺單一方面又說要增量"},{"start":724.298,"end":729.902,"text":"那我們到底想問的是說今天趙偉排那麼專業的一個報告就是要讓大家釐清這個狀況啊每次都是這樣在硬拗哎民進黨政府現在是硬拗誠信了然後連大白話都不能講就對了對因為他現在他好謝謝趙偉好謝謝洪文凱委員"}]}},{"id":"168305","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168305","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/70d8fc05dcd8abb0ce133ed241cd0808b9b76447cfe948dbb9fb3178c14150d917444451dbb786d95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"11:01:23 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有請朱偉 有請院長吳委員好"},{"start":17.285,"end":36.694,"text":"大家辛苦很開心可以回到教文會跟大家來互相交換意見互相交流那我是今天第十位質詢的委員那前面的九位委員每一位都談到AI所以AI最夯AI是王道但是台灣要打造AI的智慧島"},{"start":38.157,"end":59.254,"text":"法治跟預算是缺一不可的我們要支持科研要推動科研國會到底是國家的神隊友還是絆腳石呢這麼多委員都關心AI我們就要來懇求這些委員要支持我們的AI新十大建設要支持全力在做的大南方的矽谷計畫下一頁"},{"start":61.656,"end":91.239,"text":"首先呢我非常谢谢从过去科技部到国科会我一直我质询了之前的吴政中主委五次我也质询了廖俊智中研院院长三次所以我过去从那时候你看质询的照片还戴着口罩从疫情的期间2021年开始我就一直的听到科技界学界产业界大家的倡议我们要有全国科技会议打底"},{"start":91.999,"end":120.589,"text":"那国科会在中间整合更重要的是国家需要恢复科技顾问制度能够由上而下为我们的长远的科技发展的战略来定锚定方向所以我八次的质询我非常的感谢吴政中从部长到主委到政委在他手上我们让科技顾问制度恢复了那吴主委您也接棒接得非常好下一页我们是开了三次会议对不对"},{"start":121.509,"end":138.919,"text":"好制度恢復以後所以召開三次的全國科技顧問會議而且是重要的國內外專家我們都來聆聽意見我觀察到三度的科技顧問會議的關鍵字也都在半導體也都在AI還有淨零科技"},{"start":139.799,"end":168.49,"text":"而因應地緣政治的變化以及因應台灣國家安全的需求我們對於AI的應用淨零排放的目標也要跟著調整所以說最新的今年這一次的科技顧問會議我們做了五個重要的結論都是告訴我們所有的公司部門一起來努力用AI驅動台灣下世代的發展"},{"start":169.59,"end":192.398,"text":"從資料的治理環境從國際夥伴的共同開發從確保國安跟營業秘密之下來進行AI資料的open data以及人才人才人才最後一個要基礎的設施就是算力的投資這都是我們科技顧問會議定矛定方向我再支持也不過了下一頁"},{"start":193.68,"end":214.596,"text":"也因此立法院通過了AI基本法我印象非常的深刻那時候我擔任黨編所以我們雖然在政治上有攻防但是對於AI的國家發展的這個立法我們跨黨派都支持但我覺得非常的遺憾支持了立法卻反對了預算下一頁"},{"start":216.117,"end":232.071,"text":"總預算如果不省我們的AI新十大建設大南方的矽谷計劃從AI的智慧應用到關鍵技術到數位的基盤建設都會幾週還料料啦所以我說你法治過了AI基本法"},{"start":233.427,"end":251.159,"text":"但是預算不過不省 你就好事做半套 甚至是鬼走海寥寥所以現在在野黨委員放行的718億的新興計畫裡頭其實是放生了我們重中之重的AI新十大建設高達102億元"},{"start":254.581,"end":274.8,"text":"當然在野黨說這週五可能讓總預算可以付為審查我大大的期待本來總預算就是民生就是國家的科研就是台灣的需要但我今天一定要請您來說明也再一次對國會的喊話我們不要完成了AI基本法的立法但是對於AI新十大建設的預算卻卡關"},{"start":277.044,"end":285.404,"text":"102億嘛 主委如果新興計畫只放行718億我們AI新十大計畫預算是沒有編在裡面的就是沒有辦法被放行嘛 對不對"},{"start":286.948,"end":308.26,"text":"下一页我让您综合回复所以AI新十大建设政府民间都在拼国会要当神队友国会不要当绊脚石我下面mark出来就是我请这个国研院的院长在这里我们对于主权AI跟算力建设我们大方的做努力的做下一页"},{"start":309.778,"end":324.903,"text":"所以說我們有了金創26剛剛也有其他委員關心我們的超級電腦的排名要升了總體Top500的總算力台灣也大躍進了但是呢下一頁"},{"start":326.482,"end":341.222,"text":"我看到这个南科国网的云端算力中心正式启用而且不只政府民间我们结合一起来扩大公司协力成立了台湾算力联盟都在去年的12月12号"},{"start":342.506,"end":364.983,"text":"我相信您跟著賴清德總統在現場剪彩開幕的時候心中是百感交集所以我用一點時間讓主委您來喊話一下下一頁因為連台南沙崙智慧創新算力中心2029要上路的它的設計標用前瞻預算沒有問題"},{"start":365.563,"end":388.309,"text":"他的建築標也就是未來的基礎建設也會卡在總預算沒審新興預算沒有過所以說這個委員們口頭都說支持支持支持可是預算不審不審不過大南方新矽谷就受挫了我們的國家級的算力中心就卡關了所以下一頁第二222天總預算沒有審查"},{"start":393.905,"end":408.255,"text":"因為今天委員都在說AI很重要還要求你們台灣要進入全球10名以內還要求我們的大南方矽谷不能再拖大家都嘴巴講的哇我多支持可是預算不省"},{"start":409.176,"end":426.406,"text":"怎么办呢下一页主委我让您好好的来论述一下我们恳求我们恳求口口声声支持AI建设的不分党派的立委支持我们的AI预算吧来主委时间交给您"},{"start":427.466,"end":450.851,"text":"謝謝吳委員其實AI的發展非常重要對台灣一個我們做AI硬體的這個大國來講更是意義非凡我們要強調我們的應用應用就需要算力那除了這個我們新的這個資料中心要在沙崙啟動這個建設之外我們在南科的那個資料中心去年12月"},{"start":451.691,"end":467.69,"text":"开幕的现在建制5.1MW其实我们的目标还要更高我们将来还要结合量子运算这个对台湾非常非常重要除此之外在沙伦我们其实还有一个太空中心要建设的"},{"start":468.371,"end":495.722,"text":"火箭研發基地還有一個我們的國人院半導體中心要建設的台南我們半導體研究的基地這個都對國家的發展都非常重要政策都要做但你炒富難為五米之炊啊那我認為這些計畫如果不按期啟動的話我們會失去很多的人才因為人才不會等在那邊等我們"},{"start":496.801,"end":519.662,"text":"大家都在搶人才所以雖然規劃我們可以及早可是沒有啟動的話那失去的這個機會是難以想像的所以我很期待我們的國會各黨派如果週五能夠讓總預算復違我們就大家可以嚴格監督但是理性審查我也相信在場的委員們都支持AI發展"},{"start":520.643,"end":539.869,"text":"支持我们国家的智慧治理那么就反映在我们支持预算上我最后一个问题问你因为现在我们也在筹编明年度的概算了就去年编今年预算的时候好不容易我们在114年公司部门加起来的国家科研总经费首次突破一兆"},{"start":541.104,"end":549.215,"text":"我長期在教育文化委員會我真的覺得很難得我們拼到了然後呢近十年的以政府的科研預算成長56%那公司加起來國家總體的科研經費是總體成長93%才能破兆"},{"start":556.966,"end":577.435,"text":"那因为受了国民党版的才化法的影响我们本来要编今年的预算是1800亿的科技预算但是就被迫缩水因为排挤了嘛前地方政府分走了所以缩水了200亿我在这里问您我们现在在概算明年的预算是不是还能编出什么样子的数字呢"},{"start":578.315,"end":600.386,"text":"我們還是期望能夠再成長那目前是1850億左右目前有1850億但是這是概算嘛未來還要主計總數各部會那也很擔心持續的被其他的立法院如果再通過更多的乾坑法案我們的預算又被排擠所以我相信我今天的質詢"},{"start":601.607,"end":626.593,"text":"我认为AI从法制面谢谢立法院我们完成了难得的AI基本法但是在预算上请大家就全力支持AI新十大建设而且大南方的矽谷计划这就是我们院长在这里辛苦了我们也结合民间成立了算力联盟其实产业界都在看学术界都在等待"},{"start":627.113,"end":633.462,"text":"立法院真的要當台灣AI發展的神隊友好我們一起加油好嗎辛苦了謝謝"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}