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謝謝主席 本席要請我們工程會陳金德主委請陳金德主委主委好 主委我今天要跟你探討 第一個我們六都啊 唯一沒有捷運的就是台南"},{"start":26.53,"end":37.861,"text":"那台南目前捷運的進度最快的甚至渴望希望能夠在今年來完成發包正式動工的就是藍線"},{"start":42.616,"end":55.486,"text":"藍線在去年是要核定它的綜合規劃我在這邊要感謝我們工程會的同仁在去年一路以來給台南市捷運藍線這個綜合規劃的核定給我們很多專業的協助"},{"start":59.409,"end":64.194,"text":"但現在要進入最後一個最重要的就是經費的審議審定這個經費 全部經費總共327億那麼這條線 這條藍線是台南市的進度最快也渴望是第一條動工的捷運線"},{"start":82.267,"end":103.805,"text":"他一對永康到丹窟 到這麼多仁德這三窟都是人口稠密的行政區這三窟差不多五十萬人五十萬個人口數他最北邊大概從永康大橋就是我們說的永康齊美醫院對南來到台南市東區的平石營區"},{"start":105.166,"end":131.331,"text":"然後它有一個向東到臨北的中山樓那邊有設一個基站這個基站那麼總長大概8.5公里那麼這條路也很特殊因為它是在賴清德這市長的任內開始進行可行性研究賴清德這行政院長的時候核定這樣的路線他現在在做總統"},{"start":132.901,"end":159.283,"text":"任內也渴望即將動工啦所以這是階段性持續推動你看這樣已經經過十幾年的時間了那麼明天 剛好是明天啦4月14號我們工程會就要到台南現場去勘查這個捷運來作為接下來經費審定的一個開始進行最後一個一關"},{"start":160.744,"end":178.435,"text":"那麼這個部分是不是請我們工程會能夠再像過去一樣盡速的來協助我們處理經費一核定接下來就可以進行工程的發包希望能夠在今年如期的動工我們要請教工程會的陳主委"},{"start":178.855,"end":201.668,"text":"先以為的確是台南是最後一個要建制捷運的六都的一個城市那這個基本設計審查初步工程會有經過一些初審那明天上午會到縣地呢會邀集相關的委員到縣地去看然後現刊之後也在台南立即召開最後一次的審查會議"},{"start":203.129,"end":227.966,"text":"所以明天審查會如果委員大家都同意或有一些小修正那本案就算最後就核定了那核定之後那台灣市政府當然就可以依據這個核定的基本設計跟經費那麼進行相關發包作業因為現在才四月嘛那所以他應該可以盡速來辦理發包的這個工作好 感謝主委啦那明天是誰帶隊"},{"start":229.266,"end":240.693,"text":"我跟李副主委還有相關的主管都會下去好 非常感謝希望能夠儘速地做經費審議的核定因為這條線 藍線是第一條它接下來當然還有藍沿線因為這條做好之後 它就往藍"},{"start":246.937,"end":273.03,"text":"延伸到高鐵 把它擱堤現在台南稻棧的高鐵一年人次超過一千萬現在這麼多人出來都沒有大宗運輸就沒有捷運了但是只有剩下那種轉運的巴士而已希望能夠再增加捷運來讓旅客進出台南高鐵站能夠更方便那這條要先做這條大在市區的心臟地帶"},{"start":275.891,"end":293.7,"text":"所以我們寄予厚望 那也請工程會 謝謝工程會來繼續給我們協助啦那另外要注意探討一件事 是關於我們法規的一項前幾天 台南市的棒球場 亞太棒球場周邊的攤商 招標 引起很大的討論"},{"start":299.315,"end":322.211,"text":"我們現在討論的不是台南市這個亞太棒球場外這種攤商招標的個案我要講的是這個個案所引發的通案你這個個案為什麼要跟大家討論因為亞太棒球場外面的攤商一公告是4月4日4月4日就結標了那你4月2日一公告"},{"start":323.544,"end":346.558,"text":"那第二天就開始休假4月3號4號5號6號連續休4天的清明連假然後連假結束4月7號就結標就停止收標了4月8號開標我算一下他的天數啦是合法啦 合規啦但是我認為啊"},{"start":348.106,"end":356.626,"text":"有改善的空間啦因為你這個可能會形成公平性的問題啦你想說你四月四日你開廟回來休四天"},{"start":359.172,"end":384.921,"text":"廉價料理就要截止所以想要參與的投標廠商他幾乎沒有什麼可以準備的時間除非你事先知道有這個標案你就可能形成會有不公平的一個質疑我要是現在我準備好了以這樣的時間點當然我是最優先我事先已經知道有這個標案"},{"start":386.141,"end":406.389,"text":"否則的話一般的廠商大家都會被這樣的一個公告時間給壓縮到其實工程會也知道這種事情這種狀況所以工程會在今年春節期間我們工程會就有特別發文請各機關你那個等標期就是你開標到結標中間的這個期限你如果賭的廉價應該要延長"},{"start":411.756,"end":437.054,"text":"因為那時候春節 今年好像休了九天 十天所以工程會特別發這個文原因就是說 希望能夠跳過這個連假但是啦 很多單位啊接下來他就是以 只要合乎規定因為你是要低於公告金額的就是差不多一百五十萬以內你只要五天嘛 電子零標五天嘛"},{"start":437.901,"end":459.549,"text":"所以他就不會去考量你這中間有沒有廉價的問題所以我們工廠會是不是就這一點啊能夠做進一步的的一個改善如果以後遇到有廉價的狀況那麼是不是應該啊要來跳過去我請副主委好來請副主委"},{"start":461.095,"end":485.113,"text":"委員好 謝謝委員這個問題那因為上禮拜大概有接到這樣的一個個案那我就有特別去了解一下目前等標期的設計確實誠如委員所講的那原則上我們是訂一個最低的這個等標期的期間但當然它必須符合這個所謂的合理性"},{"start":486.434,"end":511.547,"text":"但是問題是這個就過於的這個有點概括啦每個機關的理解不太一樣所以目前那麼我在內部的研究上面原理的方向可能會是朝理論上應該是他實際上有在工作的時間來定這個等標題比較合線比較合理啦所以目前的檢討方向會是往這個方向來檢討"},{"start":513.618,"end":520.996,"text":"因為目前的規定我們這個招票期限標準他第11條他有寫到他這是大概考量到禮拜五"},{"start":522.584,"end":549.285,"text":"我們目前只規定到禮拜五如果是禮拜五公告那期算是你從禮拜一開始算你要跳過禮拜六禮拜天你是考量到這一點可是那個連假有時候更可怕台灣的連假他們假期非常多尤其盡量調的讓它連在一起我來看一下你今年清明節我想說為什麼會不會是個案你看有這麼多機關包括國防部軍醫局"},{"start":550.966,"end":562.189,"text":"經濟部產業管理局 台北分局 高雄農總 他們一樣都是4月2號公告 捷標路都是4月7號中間都卡到4月3 4 5 6 這四天連假都卡在這個標案這個等標期間啦 這個會造成"},{"start":570.218,"end":591.429,"text":"這個很多人的來不及備標或者是我會質疑除非你有內定廠商你已經首先有人在準備了不然你怎麼會有讓投標廠商來備標呢我希望這一點工程會在未來應該把它納入考量你這考量到禮拜五跳過禮拜六日從禮拜一開始算但這個廉價更嚴重好不好好 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這個叫寡占那這個寡占喔 尤其我們看到油價油價這兩家的這個關聯關係 雖然他們都講說沒有聯合壟斷但是他們之間的關聯是非常的強這國務委員每天都在看 都看得出來那這個中間"},{"start":105.385,"end":116.494,"text":"是不是有可能利用這樣的機會肌肉行銷啊 減少產量然後就去拉抬這個把這個價格給抬高呢你覺得有沒有這樣的可能性"},{"start":118.155,"end":144.441,"text":"這個部分為了穩定的物價行政院已經成立了物價的小組每週開會剛剛委員所說到的一個狀況是法務部包括各地的檢察司、廉政署、調查局都會有相關的稽查小組來稽查這個現象是否屬實若是有屬實的話他們會依法處置那以經濟部的立場的話我們除了在穩定"},{"start":145.041,"end":167.439,"text":"上游的這個物料的一個進口之外對於中游的產銷包括你剛剛講的塑膠粒的這個部分因為中游本來這個世青的這個廠沒有這麼早要開所以他3月31號就先開爐了那開爐的話他會多一個生產比如以稀為例的話其實一個月的一個需要量我們的需要量"},{"start":168.34,"end":194.41,"text":"是遠小於我們的供給量那為什麼會有現在的一個剛剛委員所提到的大家有一個恐慌的心理我們也希望說消費者這邊不要因為有預期的心理當然我們會努力在新聞報導上面都有說明都足夠的但是我跟你講這個因為台灣他的市場本身市場的維納量是小那之前"},{"start":195.35,"end":216.939,"text":"中國可以用很多非法的方法去取得一些原油啦譬如說他偷買伊朗的原油被美國制裁的啊俄羅斯的原油啊所以他的油就很低他在原來弄了一大堆的石化產業打到台灣中國本身就內捲所以全世界的這個塑膠的原料幾乎都被中國打趴嘛"},{"start":217.719,"end":234.873,"text":"那所以導致台灣的這個親友裂解之後所衍生的生產品它的生產意願因為我走得了緊啊所以它生產意願也不高那另外一點是人的心裡利用這個中東美伊的這個衝突"},{"start":238.214,"end":261.36,"text":"然後這個河母之海峽的封鎖 造成國際遊記要飆漲他利用這樣的危機 他自己本身也在要探這個機會探指我個人是覺得說 難免會給人家這樣的猜測因為台塑這個集團 過去一段時間是很賺錢但是去年前年是不太好"},{"start":263.614,"end":279.253,"text":"確實如委員所說,因為中國近幾年的經濟動能不足,他以石化業為例,他不但是內捲還外捲,然後造成很多的國家長期依賴中國的進口,但戰前就有這種狀況"},{"start":281.756,"end":298.534,"text":"對於說石化業的未來的加值化,甚至是說剛性需求的自我滿足的部分,終有演繹了包括新世青的一個改建的建設的一個計畫,就是希望說這些基本物資所需要的,我們國家必須要有一個足夠的韌性。"},{"start":300.077,"end":320.092,"text":"對 那問題是很可能為了要供給國內需求 中油被這個包袱很可能他甚至要虧本 也要生產因為如果從國際的這個物資生產這些原料的生產 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10月28號要投票"},{"start":454.499,"end":477.241,"text":"國營事業對民生非常有重要性所以剛剛委員所提到的問題不管是國營事業的一個事業預算甚至是我們公務機關的年度預算對於我們國家的經濟的發展都是非常的重要我們也藉此機會期待大院諸位委員來支持我們行政院包括經濟部所提的各項的一個預算"},{"start":478.542,"end":495.552,"text":"我們當然願意支持啊 我現在是問你說萬一在野黨不支持 還是不能過那你們中友跟台電還有經濟部會打算如何因應啊你們有沒有什麼想法要怎麼因應啊可不可以講出一個讓人家眼睛一亮的這個東西啊"},{"start":496.725,"end":524.465,"text":"國際油價上漲的真的是非常的高那中油跟中油目前所吸收的國際油價的一個上漲無論是在包括是石油的部分或是天然氣的部分市長我的問題是市長你聽清楚我的問題我很了解我也很願意支持我向來都支持都非常支持因為這個是為全民的付出那我是說如果本願"},{"start":525.851,"end":544.664,"text":"高高在上他不給你撥補他不給你增資那經濟部對於中油跟台電的未來有什麼想法基本上我們先從補考專案貸款專案貸款問題是你的負債比如果拿到銀行去能看嗎負債比都快要100%了"},{"start":547.103,"end":559.256,"text":"中有過去的一個性評因為在公司的治理之下有很好的性評那透過這個專案的最好的性評是很多人以為是郭文施又說後面有政府在撐腰了"},{"start":560.185,"end":579.786,"text":"那當然因為中油是對於我們國家如此重要而且中油也是百分之百由經濟部持有股份的一個公司所以我們對於中油理所當然也是支持的我知道那我現在跟你說我有兩個事情想要拜託你第一個要跟台電跟中油的員工加油打氣"},{"start":582.069,"end":589.345,"text":"這個狀況不是他們造成的他們都很努力認真的在自己的工作崗位上是為全國人民背這個包袱"},{"start":591.556,"end":619.215,"text":"所以這個說真的應該對台電跟中油的員工感覺到要鼓舞他們的士氣不要因為這樣說人家又說中油台電這個國營事業怎麼樣子這樣好不好這是第一個第二個技術要再精進這個世界現在這個時代你要技術精進才能夠超越才能夠繼續有領先競爭所以中油在提煉的方面在列解"},{"start":620.556,"end":635.311,"text":"這個技術 化學的體驗技術如果能夠再提升那是跟別的產業 跟將來甚至可以對我們電子業需要的這些非常精密的化學品能不能有這個產制 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謝謝主席我想我今天非常感謝主席今天針對我們社會大家非常關注的《通知條例》第12條以及《刑法》80條的修正案今天特別來排審我想我針對這兩個提案也做了兩個版本的修正"},{"start":32.074,"end":55.135,"text":"我針對貪污治罪條例第12條的修正草案我想我的版本跟大家比較不一樣我特別提出說明我想貪污治罪條例的立法目的在於嚴懲貪污、澄清勵志在司法實務上對於利用職務的機會榨取或領得小額財物的案件我們一律納入重罪的體系處理"},{"start":56.596,"end":81.802,"text":"致使部分案件在社會觀感以及法律的評價上出現失衡的情形凸顯我們現行制度於適用上的爭議與不足也違反我們人民的法律感情我想我們現行貪污自罪條例的規範架構對於情節輕微或圖得財務不正利益金額在新台幣五萬元以下的案件"},{"start":83.042,"end":108.931,"text":"實務上仍可能適用高額的法定刑度雖設有相關的檢刑規定但僅屬良形的調整並未改變其適用《貪污秩序條例重罪架構》的一個本質對於情節輕微的案件仍難以達到真正的分流與合理主義的一個效果整體刑責結構仍偏重"},{"start":111.072,"end":132.199,"text":"我們導致事務上已見基層或者廣義的公務員因涉入小額的不正利益卻遭受到重罪論處的情形造成小罪重罰與輕輕罰重的現象這顯然與比例原則以及罪行相當原則未竟相符亦有偏離本條例立法原因的"},{"start":133.581,"end":152.624,"text":"的這個本意所以有檢討修正的必要以使我們的法制更趨合理與橫貧所以刑法與貪污治罪條例與圖利詐欺侵占等犯罪類型上存有競合的關係依特別法又依普通法的原則據公園身份者"},{"start":155.049,"end":173.537,"text":"一旦涉案,通常優先是用貪污罪罪條例來處罰然然現行規範為救工人員的層級、權責範圍及行為輕重加以區分導致不同嚴正程度的行為均可能面臨相同嚴厲的法律評價、欠缺彈性以及細緻性"},{"start":174.637,"end":200.089,"text":"我本次修正其針對現行條文犯第四條第六條之罪情節輕微而其所得或所圖得的財物或不正利益在新台幣五萬元以下者減輕其刑意調整修正為犯第四條第六條之罪情節輕微而其所得或圖得的財物或不正利益在新台幣五萬元以下者依刑法內的罪名來處罰"},{"start":201.73,"end":221.823,"text":"以符合我們情節輕微且經而在5萬元以下的案件自貪污條例中來處罪避免小額的犯罪行為遭過度刑法評價來提升法治的公平性落實比例原則與罪行相當的原則"},{"start":223.084,"end":238.886,"text":"改善現行制度情形法重的問題使我們的法律適用更真合理所以我希望各位委員能夠支持另外針對刑法80條的修正這個草案我想剛才很多委員也提出了我想我們鑑於現行制度"},{"start":239.727,"end":257.841,"text":"刑事案件的追溯權從犯罪成立時起算並依犯罪的情節輕重是有不同的時效期間但是對於未成年的被害人而言在其受性侵或者猥褻的行為當下往往因為年齡上誘"},{"start":259.418,"end":283.777,"text":"認知不足無法立即辨識其自身權益遭受到侵害或因為畏懼加害人的權勢所以他沒有辦法立即的求助或報案事實上也常見被害人於成年後只有能力釐清過往的一個創傷並尋求法律的救濟但這個時候卻已經逾越追溯的時效致使案件無法進入司法的成立"},{"start":284.917,"end":312.764,"text":"這個司法的審理程序嚴重影響我們司法正義的這個實現所以我們這一次呢就增訂了提案八十條第三項明訂對於未成年人所犯的特定性侵及猥褻相關犯罪稅數全實下的計算與被害人未滿二十歲之前不予記錄我想這個也是都是大家共同的意見也希望各位委員還有我們行政部門大家及時廣益"},{"start":313.644,"end":315.989,"text":"共同來支持這些提案 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針對"},{"start":211.632,"end":231.3,"text":"一至三月其實狀況也還好差不多2.48也並沒有說非常的高這跟其他各國比較起來也是我是希望齁你們把這個整個三餐需要用的日常用的房租啦 外食啦 利用品等等獨立一個"},{"start":232.8,"end":250.681,"text":"對 要單獨列出來啊你不要用那300多項平均喔把它拉下去所以物價各方面都很溫和實際上落差是很大那是每天感受到的捏是 權重要改我們也會是每一年都會檢討我希望你能夠改出來讓我們了解啦好不好"},{"start":252.462,"end":271.802,"text":"根據衛福部統計去年健保幾戶藥會高達2536億元由於整個社會高齡化高血壓、高血糖、高血脂這三高的藥物民眾使用量最多排名第一為糖尿病用藥高達6.5億錠"},{"start":274.364,"end":285.668,"text":"那我請問衛護部針對民眾常使用接觸的傷膏藥品目前是否有受中東戰爭或是美國關稅影響有斷貨的風險目前沒有目前沒有因為有藥師認為受到美國關稅影響最快六月台灣會出現缺藥潮報告委員那個美國的藥品關稅是指進口美國的那台灣這邊台灣這邊進口美國的進來我們沒有打他關稅"},{"start":302.734,"end":315.919,"text":"出口去美國的那邊我們現在選民藥在這次是豁免一年的所以說像這個你們要去注意這個事情因為這次用特別預算來...所以謝謝委員借這個機會說明就是其實我們台灣從國外從美國進來的藥我們沒有打關稅所以不會影響價格不會影響特別預註這個健保200億元適合全數用於藥品補貼以利爭取藥品供應鏈的穩定不要讓它斷鏈"},{"start":331.385,"end":357.093,"text":"有沒有就剛剛委員報告這個東西就準備在那裡那當然現在因為就是中東戰爭的關係那塑膠類製品它影響我們包含一些藥品的包材或者是這個醫材那這個部分我們已經跟經濟部協作那也請經濟部產發署目前已經協助了20家廠商在能夠拿到原料那目前在價格的部分我們還在評估那如果真的有明顯的成本上漲那這200億我們可以拿來因應好"},{"start":358.974,"end":381.682,"text":"我希望這點要注意好你回去那現行中油浮動油價公視採七成杜拜三成布蘭特計算但中東戰爭爆發後中油原油來源整個結構出現變化來自美國比重達六成那中東戰比降至四成以下外界質疑現行"},{"start":382.902,"end":394.283,"text":"中油的公司不能反映實際的狀況應重新檢討那我請問經濟部跟中油油價公司研究標案交由哪一個智庫來研究"},{"start":397.124,"end":415.695,"text":"謝謝委員的指導不論是杜拜的油價杜拜的油價是國際間對於東亞市場最主要的一個定價的機制布蘭特更是全球最重要的一個定價的機制剛剛委員所說的一個狀況隨著這個戰事的一個發展油價的部分的起伏相當的高"},{"start":416.215,"end":435.59,"text":"甚至還有布蘭特原油比杜拜的原油價格還更高的一個狀況即便我們從美國進口的這個原油它的報價的系統也是針對東亞的報價的系統至於油價公司的這個檢討的部分終於已經承諾在半年內來完成相關的這個檢討太久了吧 半年內"},{"start":436.491,"end":447.219,"text":"本期希望早一點能夠看到研究報告半年真的太久油價公視研究報告因隨同中油撥補預算一併提出同時在立法院來討論請問賴次長有沒有辦法"},{"start":451.442,"end":478.682,"text":"好 感謝委員來支持未來中油的一個撥補的預算那我們的油價是全亞洲鄰近國家最低的那目前為止95千汽油是33.9塊我們看到南韓的這個5000汽油的這個價格甚至高達51.4塊那基本上對於穩定的物價我們對於亞林最低價還有專案平穩的機制持續的在執行之中謝謝委員知道好 一定要去重視"},{"start":479.242,"end":506.296,"text":"中東戰爭帶來各種的危機引發原物料斷鏈民眾生活受到衝擊在國內掀起塑膠之亂以醫療物資繃緊突然凸顯整個台灣石化產業在關鍵時刻的重要性石化產業是基礎型的產業廣泛應用在國人食衣住行育樂等這些居家生活中"},{"start":507.776,"end":536.175,"text":"帶動大量下游關聯的產業的發展以及就業的需求在節能減碳降低污染的前提下秉席是希望經濟部跟國發會應該藉由這個經濟部跟國發會應該藉由此次的危機要好好的盤點來支持石化產業發展的政策以促成石化業高值化的轉型讓石化業耕留台灣"},{"start":537.517,"end":538.9,"text":"達產業永續發展的環境永續的雙贏的一個境界"},{"start":545.031,"end":571.487,"text":"那個賴市長委員質詢的這個方向也就是我們現在在推動的因為石化產業對於我們國內是有一個剛性需求針對於石化產業的這個生產的部分比如說以短期內我們看到的這個波動的情況其實中油公司也在3月31號提前的開爐試清然後提供國內平價的這個石化的原物料那委員的指導我們會持續的來進行"},{"start":574.068,"end":590.662,"text":"像那個中東戰爭影響整個國內尤其是利菁的供應不穩影響交通安全與公共工程的運作延宕施工的期程那媒體報導台灣基礎建設道路工程主要的原料像利菁嚴重的缺貨價格飆漲"},{"start":592.503,"end":616.22,"text":"六都都有工程受到影響那我請問經濟部對於國內整個濾清穩定供應有哪些措施那哪些類型的公共工程又會優先來供應第一個針對於濾清的生產所需要的上游端的物料的一個進口的部分我們從3月2號開始成立的能源因應小組無論是中油公司跟台塑公司"},{"start":617.3,"end":643.738,"text":"進口的這個相關的這個原料我們都有掌握這第一個那第二個部分的話國內的濾清以中油公司為例的話它大概有2.2萬噸那台塑石的話大概有4.5萬噸那以中油公司定廠的一個破破的一個狀況穩定到6月是沒有問題的而中油公司也持續的透過產線的一個正常的運轉來提供國內所需要的公共建設材料"},{"start":644.378,"end":661.304,"text":"因為你看雙北市民也擔心專用一些垃圾袋會因為這個塑膠之亂而買不到新北市環保局以對外說明專用垃圾袋雙北互通使用整體生產供應無虞不因成本波動而漲價"},{"start":662.805,"end":677.843,"text":"而且有三個月的庫存量民眾不必恐慌那本市是希望說經濟部能夠主動協助新北市與台北市確保原料供應無虞一例廠商生產專用垃圾袋民眾不用煩惱買不到專用的垃圾袋"},{"start":679.625,"end":693.182,"text":"有沒有辦法這個沒有問題除了新北市台北市之外我們針對於全國一千多家的市場跟兩百多家的商圈每天都有群組跟電話來去進行相關資料的一個對齊好"},{"start":694.784,"end":718.386,"text":"那我最後一個議題是針對塑膠原料或製品尤其是華務部應該召開跨部會物價聯合計查小組啟動調查是否有異常囤積或聯合漲價等等不過今年因為是逢選舉年選舉小物花放很多塑膠製品為了年底選舉廠商會提早準備塑膠原料"},{"start":718.806,"end":736.237,"text":"以因應候選人訂單的需求本席提醒華務部華務部雖然沒有上來但提醒華務部不要抓錯對象造成選舉節外生枝我想也提醒我們各位官員 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謝謝主席主席 各位同仁與這個與會機關的官員兒少性侵害是我們社會必須正式的沉痛的問題本案修正刑法第80條考量創傷復原需要更長的社會支持我們以20歲作為門檻"},{"start":31.616,"end":43.582,"text":"主張被害人滿20歲以前追溯權時效不記錄確保被害人在擁有完全獨立人格後 能有完整的時效期間尋求救濟"},{"start":45.117,"end":53.204,"text":"澳洲皇家委員會經過長達5年的巡查聘請超過700位員工耗時超過澳幣3.4億元 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謝謝主席有請我們工程會陳主委請陳主委陳主委你好"},{"start":18.68,"end":45.259,"text":"這個請教一下 因為最近有看到你們這個修名發新聞稿但我想到在今年年初的時候特別在交通委員會針對你修法的一個內容曾經排過一個專案報告那我那時候也跟你討論這個我想所有的委員針對所有修法的內容尤其是這個刪除三家 這個第一次招標三家這樣的一個限制"},{"start":46.059,"end":66.778,"text":"我還記得你那時候是蠻多想法的也頗為堅持那當然因為我知道那不光是你啦在任何修法的過程中任何機關它都有很多醞釀的過程很多收集訊息的過程很多跟產業界溝通的過程但我覺得從今天我們1月5號到4月10號將近四個月的時間"},{"start":71.681,"end":94.387,"text":"聽到答案啦 答案就是 這個先不做了那我也覺得很奇怪 因為你當時講的說包括美國公文都沒這樣的一個標準包括很多很多的理由啊 是不是不見了那我也看到你的報告特別想 特別說這一陣子當然預告期嘛 聽聽大家意見 是第二階段聽嘛"},{"start":95.347,"end":115.992,"text":"那各界建設性的觀點我的天啊以前我們覺得你覺得那個建設性觀點形成了這個的改變它最主要你在業界凝聚了哪幾個建設性的觀點把你1月5號曾經得諸位說的一些論點把它改變了麻煩你簡要說明一下"},{"start":118.726,"end":146.045,"text":"其實我們採購法的修正過程醞釀很久了那也都含詢各機關就是辦採購的機關大致上都沒有什麼反對意見那麼也去拜訪跟這個相關的工協會這個相關工會大概除了少部分一些修正之外沒有什麼特別的意見所以我們嘗試去做預告"},{"start":147.186,"end":171.764,"text":"預告的部分回來也是贊成則居多啦但是後來沒想到這個被聚焦在三家改為一家認為這個是要圖利廠商甚至認為工程會這個叫放水那這個這個這個就太這個這個指責就太大了這個指責太大那我們認為與其這樣子的"},{"start":174.306,"end":196.556,"text":"跟部分人士的意見相左應推啊那不如我們這個再再更凝聚各界贊成的意見因為贊成的意見呢比聲音比較小這機關啊我們這個工程會修法的內容所以那另外呢我們的確很認真的在想是不是三家改為一家的確會造成某些這個缺口"},{"start":197.136,"end":225.212,"text":"或是某些執行上機關如果有些不肖的機關辦理採購人員造成他的方便所以我們也虛心的認為我們必須來認真思考陳主委其實這個各界的意見當天大概我聽到非常非常多的委員大概已經幫你蒐集了相關的意見我記得我那天特別說了三家如果變成一家第一次就可以招標"},{"start":226.735,"end":255.174,"text":"在效率上我覺得有兩種人非常開心第一個是優質廠商他不要被卡這麼久我就只有幾家可以做這樣的大的工程被卡到那個預算都要調幾倍那第二開心的就是劣質廠商哇以前要喬辦天華這一支一支搞定所以確實有困難啊是可以理解的但我想請問一下我看到你們4月10號你們的一個新聞稿回覆啊特別講了第二段最後幾個字"},{"start":257.756,"end":279.851,"text":"你會持續整合意見就整體影響進行長期的配套評估充分凝聚共識在這個推行修法的一個程序因為坦白講因為過去看到有任何單位新聞稿這個部分就是不是進入修法期就法律進入休眠期休眠期"},{"start":281.253,"end":297.229,"text":"你現在是包括其他的部分 你現在要長期評估你現在大概什麼時候會提出方案你們要先送行政院 你有沒有什麼樣一個三家這個部分排除掉這樣的一個情況之下有沒有一個時間表還是真的進入休眠期"},{"start":297.85,"end":326.877,"text":"因為這次修法條文非常多啦那有些要修法的內容也是來自於大院的建議啦在本委員會的這個建議那被聚焦在三家改為一家這個是相當可惜啦所以我們寧可把這個各界的意見凝聚好了之後再來辦理我們預計希望能夠在今年年底之前把這些工作做好之後那麼會重新預告啦"},{"start":327.762,"end":356.112,"text":"好這個主委其實剛剛我們平常一般人的擔心確實三家變一家因為現在你就覺得我們有很多的防弊機制有時候那個標案我們說真的我講真的大家全民都看不下去你看看這個3月26號27號一下出來兩個新聞我都覺得很離譜當然這中間到底有什麼採購法或者相關的一個採購制度法規面"},{"start":356.972,"end":385.383,"text":"是不是有缺漏第二個是到底人發生問題再來第四個是流程 檢核 集核 驗收到底是發生什麼問題警用房貸背心是拼裝貨我覺得這很離譜這不是個案它從2019年弄到2022年才發生那這個事情當然講說這是這個業管單位的事情 驗中單位的事情可是你知道嗎"},{"start":386.323,"end":400.962,"text":"警政署 移民署 校政署 台灣銀行 防彈備心全部跨單位 跨機構我坦白講工程會如果你沒有跨單位去用心的話你真的今天感覺說防彈備心"},{"start":403.044,"end":420.697,"text":"各位這個主委我們所有的員警同仁穿上了防彈背心他覺得很安心他這份信任不是來自於這個廠商他是信任這個國家的制度信任工程會採購法一定可以給我們"},{"start":421.698,"end":439.505,"text":"非常有Quality對不對Qualify很棒的能夠保護我們生命的結果你到最後答案一撥出來像現在有些案子正在準備起訴我說真的啊你還沒判決保固期已經過了準備換下一件了像這樣的真的很離譜欸可以"},{"start":440.245,"end":469.405,"text":"改製造日期可以沒有防水的功能可以提供假的檢測報告然後非原廠的一個證明書然後可以七稿八稿弄完這個我是覺得這個請問一下是哪一個處還是哪個單位我先問一下這個2019年他上網招標嘛那剛開始標了大家也穿了也不知道發生什麼事了我請問一下2020年2021年沒有東昌事發之前這個廠商的履歷"},{"start":470.526,"end":477.459,"text":"好不好啊在你們的1.3萬家這兩家廠商的履歷是不是優良廠商啊你們要注意這件事啊"},{"start":480.697,"end":502.369,"text":"我跟你講你們累積了10年1.3萬目前你們的資料庫有兩廠商像這個廠商你們回去查啦我回去自己查如果你這樣子搞一個大慕容大笑話你說那個是廠 結果後面的人看到2020年 2021年又要找這樣防彈背心哇 終於找到我們工程會認定的"},{"start":504.429,"end":525.831,"text":"優良廠商履歷很棒的我覺得這個你們要特別注意那下面像陸軍這個26套反制系統我都不知道為什麼這麼多渣男廠商他跟這些這麼厲害這麼厲害我講很多真的技術到位的一個廠商他也說根本不敢去飆你知道嗎他覺得很深啊"},{"start":526.431,"end":528.433,"text":"所以我們本來政府採購法修正裡面要擴大停權範圍就是要解決這些渣男廠商的問題"},{"start":549.195,"end":567.848,"text":"我們其中有一個修法是要針對比方說你去公司更名或者是同一個治安人他登記了很多家公司過去是沒有管制的我們再透過修法來擴大停權範圍就是要解決碰到這種渣男廠商的問題而且這個問題也是大院一再要求的"},{"start":568.348,"end":591.858,"text":"其實這個我想這真的非常嚴重因為你一件事情起頭根本沒有做好後面所謂的審計監察司法調查我覺得都是後面在補強重點是穿著這樣的完全不合格過期的這些遠景同仁你知道他們現在身上我想我們朝偉在這邊他們身上超多自己買的東西你知道嗎"},{"start":593.539,"end":598.512,"text":"我說奇怪我就問了警政署就有相關的配備你幹嘛要買這個買那個你知道嗎"},{"start":600.973,"end":626.283,"text":"唯一的特色啊 奇怪 我們招標的都是特別貴但是品質沒有特別好那我結論啦 就這樣的齁政府採購法 我覺得很多問題但是三大問題現在看到這麼多的一個情況你的檢核驗收的制度失靈這些假的證明 假的原廠證明到最後有沒有一個回溯追蹤的制度我拿那個證明 對不對 我不要等到"},{"start":627.083,"end":643.549,"text":"司法調查他發現嘛這證明是不是說 好 OK我怎麼看得懂他造假的他回溯到原廠寄給原廠或者我不太清楚現在在各個機關有沒有這種double check的一個制度也不能讓你行政院公共工程委員會說幫我判讀嘛"},{"start":645.37,"end":674.096,"text":"我倒是覺得已經招標完成了好一切照制度走但是有些相關重要的發生這麼多次對不對包括檢驗包括相關你覺得我覺得要一個回溯去跟原單位去追蹤的一個機制那包括你黑名單派出機制這個我已經說了很多次還有現在的罰則旅遊管理我看到你修法很多啦我們是希望你最後做個結論啦好不好修法之後你希望預期怎麼樣"},{"start":675.97,"end":694.515,"text":"我們把過去這些讓這些不好的廠商有機會一再的投機得標這些路都要把他把他這個擋起來了那相關的問題我們希望有機會在政府採購法裡面做修正而且獲得這個大院的支持好 謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"168443","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168443","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5655ee4938da65e17c6b8fed93760275413783e2c4a522d3291cfc8066c9e4d9fe107b1d166675e65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳素月","委員發言時間":"09:45:03 - 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可是這樣子一個系統的一個建制就是說對於工程人員的一個履歷的建制如果說他們有相關的比如說職災或者是懲戒紀錄那我們要怎樣去限制他參與未來工程的這個就是競標之類 有可能嗎"},{"start":492.823,"end":513.44,"text":"這個主要是公司啦 履歷這個公司 那麼廠商呢他在選商的時候 機關在選商的時候 比方說評選那評選他可以根據這個履歷來打分數嘛那至於個人 個人他如果在有這些慈安的事故他是否違反相關祭司法 那是可以懲處的是"},{"start":515.782,"end":539.544,"text":"那當然就是說我們對於職安的安全我們就是希望能夠盡量朝向這個零意外的一個方向那也希望就是說在任何可以達到目標的一個政策我們都予以肯定那當然也要去考慮到就是實務跟我們的政策的理想性是不是可以就是符合的一個地方這樣子好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168445","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168445","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5655ee4938da65e18e6fcdffed0ca094306a382356a5b219291cfc8066c9e4d9dff3bbbc96e0e24c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳昭姿","委員發言時間":"09:49:57 - 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有請馮次長好 請馮次長"},{"start":13.565,"end":34.575,"text":"市長這兩張截圖是來自法務部調查局和內政部的警政署的通緝犯的查詢系統那涉及88會館地下會對案的林秉文他在2024年的時候棄保潛逃了潛逃期間他還可以玩臉書PO文大家都很好奇這麼高調的通緝犯那背後到底是有多大的靠山在挺呢"},{"start":35.655,"end":60.356,"text":"但是這個調查局的系統上面寫的說可能潛逃的地點是洛杉磯我先請教次長通常法務部是如何去判斷可能潛逃的地點跟委員報告其實我們所屬的這個調查局或廉政署或者他們在偵辦案件之中他們會依照他們的權責去處理那法務部在個案上不會去做這樣的一個判斷"},{"start":63.035,"end":79.581,"text":"所以您不知道是怎麼樣去判斷他的潛逃力就是說我們在那個檢查機關裡面會針對各個案的一個狀況來做不同的一個好 次長 那我就繼續講就是說我相信所有人都看到今年3月下旬這一堆新聞那標題不外乎是洗錢教父林秉文在柬埔寨身中了29槍後身亡那臉孔還被這個砍到面目全非由於他背後牽扯的這個太多黨政人士了"},{"start":91.986,"end":112.496,"text":"而且關係複雜牽涉無數的高官跟顯貴並且他的犯行涉及巨大的金流因為他號稱零百億但是他中槍身亡臉部被砍到面目全非之後先前所涉及的詐欺洗錢案這些罪行人事物最後都可能一筆勾銷會去公訴不受理撤銷通緝所以我要請教次長在這樣的狀況下"},{"start":118.9,"end":123.635,"text":"這則訊息林秉文死亡他的真實性是否變得很重要呢"},{"start":124.791,"end":148.188,"text":"跟委員報告 當然我們法務部的這個政策他對死亡真實性是不是很重要非常重要非常重要 那次長林秉文在通緝期間高調的PO文那檢調依舊找不到人那以為他在美國逃亡嘛 剛剛跟檢調的這個資料結果他出現在柬埔寨欸那林秉文一死 人事實例五馬上被報導"},{"start":149.729,"end":154.931,"text":"這反差也太大了吧 這個反差留給大眾很多的想像空間所以我要請教次長 如果報導資訊是屬實 身中29槍而且面目全非 那真的能確定本人嗎台灣跟吉普賽之間並沒有司法互助合作請問警政署跟法務部要怎麼去查核通緝犯是否死亡 請簡單回答"},{"start":172.777,"end":185.563,"text":"那這個部分這個案件的相關的一個細節其實柬埔寨的這個警方都表示還在上代調查所以在這個部分上會很慎重的去處理是這個真實性的部分這邊回答委員的問題"},{"start":186.67,"end":215.375,"text":"那我先就請教有沒有比對過指紋跟DNA你曉得嗎這個部分柬埔寨的檢方他們會做進一步的一個去調查這就是我的重點因為我要下一個就要請教你到底是我們的警方檢方去做採樣的呢還是說完全仰賴柬埔寨警方提供的資訊而已柬埔寨不也是被視為詐欺王國之一嗎林秉文要買通人來詐欺有困難嗎市長你覺得柬埔寨資料就可以了嗎"},{"start":216.395,"end":236.93,"text":"你現在還在等 但是難道他們給你的資料你就全信了嗎跟委員報告 就是說我們國的這個駐胡志明市的這個辦事處兼轄這個柬埔寨的外管人員還有警政署的刑事局駐該地的聯絡官都共同的在瞭解 而且協助家屬處理指認跟後續的事宜"},{"start":237.37,"end":246.317,"text":"這部分會慎重處理請委員放棄市長這個我還有下面的要請教你通緝犯炸死不是沒有先例2000年前台銀箱裡陳守福他倒賣了10.2億的這個公債被通緝他的妻子還聲稱說接獲陳守福在中國車禍死亡的消息"},{"start":256.664,"end":278.633,"text":"但是陳守樸卻在中國把錢洗到美國最後他是因為超過這個追訴期給予不起訴處分那去年5月台中地檢署針對這個大川警署詹姓男子發布通緝隔月就收到他在柬埔寨新吉耿塞死亡的消息那為了防範這個炸死所以等待家屬他把遺體空運回台後那鑑識人員也到現場去採證指紋"},{"start":284.256,"end":297.47,"text":"檢體比對那確認他是本人之後才予以不起訴處分所以我接下來就要請教次長你剛剛都沒有回答到這個重點負責偵辦林秉文案件的新北地檢署是否也應該採取一樣的做法呢"},{"start":299.745,"end":317.117,"text":"跟委員報告地檢署有這個相關的一個作業我們法務部這邊會請地檢署慎重看待這個案件那在於說跟委員報告就是說警方的一個部分警政署對這個案件也會很重視那事實上真實性這個部分上一定會做強加的一個檢查這部分請委員放心"},{"start":318.682,"end":336.922,"text":"你就是要具體的方法啊就是人家是這麼做在做確認啊因為涉及到境外上的一個犯罪的一個偵查其實我們的警方在國外執法你也做得到啊而且這麼重大他牽涉的背景我剛剛一開始就把他的背景告訴你牽涉的這個黨政人士這麼多牽涉的金額這麼大是"},{"start":338.223,"end":357.482,"text":"然後面目全非你可以說他已經死亡了嗎這個東西不是這不是可以隨便可以做決定的你要確認是他本人喔市長這件事情我會繼續再追查下去那市長檢察總統被提名的徐錫強回答民眾黨的問卷你有看過他的問卷回答嗎我有看過你有看喔"},{"start":359.284,"end":367.39,"text":"請教次長 今天是次長代表徐貝提名回答到有一句話說在過去會看到的司法關說或上級施壓已經不太看到了請問這個次長徐貝提名所謂的上級施壓你認為具體內容是什麼是怎麼樣的施壓法"},{"start":377.008,"end":397.176,"text":"徐貝提名人他的一個說法白紙黑字他說過去的司法官說他上級施壓現在已經不太看得到了那你認為他講的上級施壓是什麼呢我認同我們這個徐貝提名人的一個說法因為我們在辦案上以我擔任檢察官的工作裡面我也從來沒有遇過上級長官的事情"},{"start":397.216,"end":419.603,"text":"你沒有遇過那你知道嗎他這樣子寫啊他在白紙黑字上這樣寫那你知道嗎有沒有上級我想徐備提名人他一定也是在當檢察官的過程中一定都是嚴守我們的證據我們看都是看證據啦也看程序然後也會注意保障人權文不會去看說什麼長官來施壓我們就改變我們的看法這是檢察官基本的注意好 次長次長那我們請暫停一下謝謝"},{"start":420.563,"end":443.246,"text":"你難道忘了彭坤業案嗎?當年黃國昌立委揭發時任高檢署長官、檢察官彭坤業在桃園地檢署期間接受前任法務部長那時候他擔任國安委諮詢委員邱泰山官說這個不法利益超過5億成為法界的一大醜聞市長你知道哪些機關曾提出就這個案子?我剛剛講這個案子有提出報告跟新聞稿嗎?你知道嗎?"},{"start":445.176,"end":457.929,"text":"你不知道?好,那我讓次長看次長你看高檢署有提出調查報告啊監察院有提出這個新聞稿啊但是最終怎麼樣呢法務部就讓彭坤業提早退休免罰官逃過一劫"},{"start":459.711,"end":477.817,"text":"這就是法務部處理的方式嗎?你能接受這樣的結果嗎?連承認法務部部長帶頭關說都來進行關說,那人民怎麼能相信檢調系統不存在上級施壓呢?所以面對這麼大的事件被護航,難怪人民對司法信任度一直都是三成多,我就形容的死當啦"},{"start":478.917,"end":498.727,"text":"那次長您今天是代表部長來行政司法最高的機關就是法務部那您今天代表次長部長我想請教你你是否願意真的認真去面對思考如何改變不要只求任內無事可以平安下莊好嗎我今天給你很具體的資料喔"},{"start":500.05,"end":527.031,"text":"我們是那個常務次長是文官沒有安全下莊的問題就是我們如果說要講的是政務官的部分其實以法務部的角度來看您今天就代表部長出席代表部長出席只能回答部裡面相關問題我們還是如果說談論到說安全下莊的話那我們這個次檢察官我是希望大家都沒有這樣的心態我今天就是把資料而且就一五一十的就分析給您聽"},{"start":527.831,"end":537.384,"text":"那我們希望很多事情要務必求真嘛那沒有上去 這個要把司法的這個低分嘛使到的分數要把它搶辦法把它贏回來嘛好 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本席要針對從年初開始全國有所謂的土方之亂要跟我們工程會來就教因為工程會日前有召集環境部、交通部、經濟部、內政部、農業部來討論就土方之亂要怎麼解決而最終把一些包括台北港、台中港、高雄港跟南新計畫的土地變成是土方的佔據區跟去化區"},{"start":41.232,"end":67.352,"text":"那但是在這過程裡面台北港在本期的選區可是從頭到尾巴黎的民眾以及我們地方的鄉親並沒有參與這個討論也因此現在爆發說原來台北港外他還不在台北港內在台北港外也就緊鄰我們的馬路旁邊要有一個土地來做一個土方置戰制區那地方民眾當然會群起華然跟反彈"},{"start":68.232,"end":91.011,"text":"會覺得是說為什麼突然間在這邊會有一個戰事區然後後續在這個戰事區上面還要做一個相關的處理而且所謂的戰事到底是戰事多久到目前為止各方單位沒有辦法給我們明確的答案我上一次質詢環境部 環境部部長講是說一年但一年之後會不會可以順利的退場這一點主委你怎麼看"},{"start":92.117,"end":112.688,"text":"包委員土方的業務是歸內政部主管那跟土方的產出源包括公共工程其實民間的建築是大宗那公共工程委員會當然希望包括公共工程的土方出租能夠有一個合理的"},{"start":113.769,"end":137.187,"text":"便利的去處 不會影響公共工程的進度但整個土方的處理是由內政部 協調交通部去台北港是呀 國土署也算是您督導嗎不是公共工程委員會的業務是呀 國土署也算您督導嗎那是政務委員的部份是 政務委員的部份嘛 沒錯啊但現在我們看到的是說 在這一次的土方之亂連前工程會主委吳哲成啊"},{"start":137.887,"end":145.358,"text":"他也直接就點名是說看不下去認為這次土方之亂問題在於末端土方出處沒有準備好就開始執行流量管制"},{"start":146.865,"end":174.491,"text":"土方業務報告委開宗明義講說你說國家共大公共工程我們要支持沒有問題啊但重點在於是說突然間沒有準備好然後就頒布一個政策所以說造成土方之亂土方之亂之後馬上急救張再去做去化所以到時候選擇到地方要有站置場那這不很草率嗎土方管理三十年了在這個過程裡面有沒有跟地方溝通過土方管理超過三十年了並不是今天才亂"},{"start":176.392,"end":198.147,"text":"就是今年最亂 歷任的主管他們都有進行那今年只是增加了GPS的裝置跟流向管制所以這就變成配套的措施有沒有做好 主委你也不需要開始召集環境部 交通部等相關單位來共同討論吧"},{"start":199.773,"end":225.367,"text":"不是嗎 那另外再來喔前環保署副署長律師詹順貴也稱土方之亂是行政院某政務委員惡搞那位政務委員是誰這個我不了解他講的是誰啦不過我對這位前政務官也知之甚明啦我們彼此了解就好彼此了解就好是什麼意思我了解他的說法至於他講誰你要問他"},{"start":226.567,"end":245.095,"text":"我要問他 你也不清楚是誰那你要問他不是 這不是我要問他 你在這邊反諮詢我現在在問的是說 某政務官員在惡搞嘛那也因此是說 兩位民進黨前朝官員都暗指在這次的土方之亂 事出必有因啊"},{"start":246.343,"end":265.646,"text":"必有妖啊你說30年過去那過去30年就沒有造成今年那麼的餘波蕩漾啊那還有過去如果說30年要處理的話那沒有在巴黎地區找一個土地來做戰志場那為什麼突然間今年這樣子那我只想問就是說巴黎地區的民眾他也給本席陳情"},{"start":266.627,"end":278.059,"text":"他也問我們之前在地方說明會也召集相關單位來之後發覺是完全沒有後續的配套到底你暫置要暫置多久是不是一年哪一個單位可以保證"},{"start":280.474,"end":303.63,"text":"我建議委員我建議委員到內政委員那去執行內政部這不是你建議我而是現在本席就在問的是說既然這已經是跨部會的溝通而有政務委員出來做跨部會的協調的時候那我們想問說到底這個決策的過程地方政府配合然後結果全部中央下來然後地方政府跟我們民間到最後來承受這樣的壓力報告委員誰來看看理解或是了解我們的"},{"start":310.516,"end":310.877,"text":"居民的壓力"},{"start":314.622,"end":342.671,"text":"主委 啊有沒有開過會我是基於這位委員召集相關法律的資訊 是嘛所以那一天的主席是誰什麼 開過很多次會那一天主席是誰哪一天 找相關本席剛剛講的來決定開了多次會議 開了多次會議我的 主委本席現在要的 這哪一次會議做了什麼決定我想問你說 你現在把整個這個土方的主委 本席現在要的是說要看到地方民眾的需求"},{"start":343.191,"end":363.854,"text":"而不是說我們開完會之後後續就變成沒有事所以本席這個陳情書能不能也給我們公共工程委員會一份讓我們公共工程委員會來去了解能夠做的部分請你再以政務委員的立場再召集相關部會甚至地方政府大家共同來討論怎麼樣降低地方的衝擊這樣做得到嗎"},{"start":364.835,"end":379.025,"text":"我基於尊重委員的這個要求啦那因為我身兼政務委員我是可以接受但是請不要把土方之亂灌在我陳金德身上我先 從頭到尾沒有 你要找去找那個詹順貴"},{"start":380.586,"end":403.232,"text":"那但是本席現在要問的是民進黨政府從上到下到底要解決問題要有配套要有措施要有辦法而不是丟出來之後後續讓地方來去吸收我覺得這樣子大家沒有辦法接受所以主委 這個陳情書主委我基於尊重委員的職權 樂意接受好 謝謝 主委等一下我就給我們相關單位來 再來"},{"start":405.473,"end":433.011,"text":"也請主委真的要重視我們中央跟地方溝通的一個部分即便你開會你沒有直接來跟地方溝通你也要要求相關部會應該要跟地方合理說明否則的話這樣子推動真的是讓大家地方滑爛再來另外一個部分公共工程委員會現在要做政府採購法的一個修法嘛齁那都還在這個公告以及相關的一個部分但是其中雖然刪除三家投標的一個限制引發爭議"},{"start":434.372,"end":450.385,"text":"那暫緩有現在是講說暫緩修法不知道什麼時候我們會再審到但另外一個部分草案新增國家安全跟機密採購有可能直接採取限制機招標或是選擇性招標那外界也會有聯想說這又會不會是開大開方便之門"},{"start":451.386,"end":465.821,"text":"謝謝文指教所以我們現在重新在整個在接受各界的法規意見會重新彙整在必要的時候再重新預告所以什麼時候會預告還沒有我們就是彙整之後再重新預告本已經預告過了是"},{"start":467.222,"end":486.922,"text":"預告過啦 就是外界 華蘭以及外界疑慮很多啊包括說因為 本席還是開宗明義談調如果一般的 一般的部分啦主委 如果說外界支持的話你就不會再拿回去重新再修正了啦講大白話 如果說你覺得外界支持很多那就硬推嘛"},{"start":487.563,"end":515.291,"text":"那就送進來嘛 但沒有啊你公告完畢之後你現在你剛剛自己就講是說你又再回去又再修正又再討論代表確實有反彈聲音但是本席現在想強調的是本席現在想強調的是如果說能夠讓一般基層公務同仁能夠更便捷節省他的行政流程讓他增加效率本席不反對這是一般的基層公務同仁但是請聽清楚如果說"},{"start":516.947,"end":539.862,"text":"動不動就拿什麼國安機密機密採購然後扣帽子然後直接就講是說這個東西就直接要進入選擇性招標然後完全沒有外界沒有辦法評估沒有辦法了解然後你就是指定招標的話本期沒有辦法接受為什麼因為過去我們就看到很多機密招標或是很多相關國安的部分什麼軍方買水120塊一罐5萬塊的會議椅"},{"start":543.459,"end":559.916,"text":"那這個部分我真的很擔心說以後如果說你這樣變你的修法通過之後軍方五萬塊會議以算不算是國安機密他認定了之後他就變成是選擇性招標那到最後變成是刷嘛國安機密 駭嘛國安機密"},{"start":561.308,"end":581.622,"text":"我覺得這個是一般民眾都沒有辦法接受的這個個案是確定有這個個案嗎買水用限責性招標嗎不是啊本席就講是說過去到現在有多少這一些都已經這個就是被我們立法院挑出來所以買水到7-11買就可以了啊主委買水到7-11買就可以了對"},{"start":583.203,"end":598.369,"text":"主委所以說你自己也覺得很荒謬嘛你覺得這個標案也很荒謬嘛這個標案就是之前在外交國防委員會外交部報出來的預算被我們外交國防的委員挑出來到最後顧立雄自己說回去的標案啊"},{"start":599.665,"end":621.629,"text":"所以本席現在講的是說什麼本席現在講的是說我們還是要有一個持平性不要什麼事情都打著國安機密的大旗來去做掩護的事實所以本席先提出當然你現在已經講了就是說你還會再做修正之後再做公告嘛對不對預計什麼時候會再公告"},{"start":621.949,"end":640.912,"text":"我們會中整各界一經再來辦理所以目前沒有時間表還沒有好本席還是一樣的態度跟一樣的原則預算當用則用 花在刀口上但是當審則審公共工程委員會是我們國家的主管採購相關標案的機關更應該以身作則以上 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請一下陳經的主委 請陳主委"},{"start":13.348,"end":38.725,"text":"委員長主委好有關於淨零碳排的議題我們屢屢在公共工程委員會的質詢上面多次的要求工程會要逐步的落實的執行那尤其是在淨零碳排的這樣一個議題早已經是世界各國的共識而且在經歷進來的這樣的一個國際局勢的動盪不安的狀況之下"},{"start":43.629,"end":58.609,"text":"這樣一個國家的面對這樣的一個局勢相關的碳排以及再生能源韌性的加強再生能源體系的建立更是國家未來重要的一個議題"},{"start":61.133,"end":82.56,"text":"國家也定定2050年進行碳排的這樣一個重要的目標但是我們看到綠色採購有關於相關的金額啊歷年來都不足1%那這個相關的成效不彰啊早已經是社會各界議論的一個主要議題來請主委簡單說明一下為什麼效果這麼不好"},{"start":86.715,"end":105.888,"text":"台灣每年碳排大概兩億六千萬噸或兩億七千萬噸其中能源使用包括發電佔了大概三分之一公共工程大概佔了百分之九那麼碳排這件事情因為能源使用所以必須排那本來就是一件很難處理"},{"start":107.389,"end":132.934,"text":"的工作所以台灣雖然小但是重視這個在全球要減少碳排這樣的一個需求上面進行的規劃所以管理公共工程方面除了我們現在在建置的碳排係數希望在設計階段納入考量之外未來我們再加強兩個部分一個在重大的公共建設的基本設計審議階段"},{"start":135.254,"end":162.388,"text":"工程會會要求設計主辦機關呢將這個碳補桌那麼納入考量或者是公共工程委員會受邀協審重大公共建設在國發會的階段也會提出相同的要求換句話說我們希望重大的公共建設那麼他在設計階段就要把碳補桌減少碳排的設計納入否則的話我們不會通過我想這個源頭來處理"},{"start":165.931,"end":183.849,"text":"針對2050年的淨營碳排 公共工程委員會也有公共工程節能減碳的計畫主要是分成三大部分來做一個實施第一個是收集公共工程各項排放係數這個部分初步已經完成"},{"start":184.429,"end":206.428,"text":"那第二個階段是碳排資料庫也預計要在今年底來完成那這個部分其實是分成三個部分第一個是收集各公共工程的這樣的一個排放係數那這個資料我看2024年5月之後就沒有再更新過了"},{"start":207.108,"end":233.686,"text":"第二個工作的重點是碳足跡的資料庫這是由環境部來主導那環境部主導之後他的資料驗證及導入再移到這個工程會就是我們的要建立試算的一個系統那這個2026年才招標系統什麼時候會建置完成什麼時候會開放使用 主委說明一下"},{"start":235.354,"end":254.358,"text":"我首先說明就是這個係數的統計是逐步的啦現在大概有2000多筆那麼將來系統會提供給主辦機關做設計使用那至於如何開始我想請副主委來說明我們這個排放試算系統預計要到2027年才要上線測試這個遠比荷蘭的落後10年了"},{"start":261.66,"end":274.969,"text":"來 副主委說明一下好 謝謝委員那剛剛委員提到那個碳排氣數的更新我想在大概一年以前我們的碳排氣數大概只有1030幾筆經過這段時間跟這樣收集各部會的資訊然後同時再去查證之後我們現在已經累積到2000多筆"},{"start":282.914,"end":301.327,"text":"那另外這個我們那個碳排的減碳的那個系統其實是要嫁接在我們目前的那個PCCES系統上就是價格估算系統那因為這個系統其實也有一定時間所以我們大概同步會做兩件事情一個就是把現在那個PCCES這個系統把它做一個進版升級版"},{"start":301.967,"end":330.666,"text":"讓他更好用讓他更準確度那同時因為這個PCCS就有相關的這些工項工項之後除了有價格之外我們就會再疊加那個我們所收集來之後驗證的這些碳排的係數那所以因此各單位到時候在起計畫的時候其實他就可以一方面算出他的那個預算的規模合理預算規模另外一個就是他可以知道說他那個碳排係數是多少那這樣來一起來控制預算相關的程序我們都清楚"},{"start":332.067,"end":351.424,"text":"相關的時期的建置我們也都清楚但是這樣的一個效率實在是太低了這個請陳主委必須要加緊的督促另外我們要建置這種排放的試算系統我認為就是應該要參考荷蘭的獨波克系統"},{"start":352.418,"end":378.775,"text":"那他們這樣的一個公共工程在荷蘭他們利用試算系統建立獎勵的制度不只是推動試算的這樣的一個計算的方式出來而且是要有獎勵的機制那荷蘭在2000年的時候開始使用這種突破課的系統2017年他們就導入線上的數位管理了"},{"start":379.892,"end":401.778,"text":"他們強制規定政府採購千萬歐元以上的工程都必須要採用而且試算的結果要納入投標的文件之中那工程排放來做分級的這樣的一個處理更重要他有一個虛擬折價的這樣的一個系統跟方式那"},{"start":403.393,"end":422.533,"text":"荷蘭它有一個部門叫基礎建設與水資源管理部他們2000年運用這個系統2017年開始導入這種排放的管理的數位管理那依照工程他們建立一至五級的這樣一個分級"},{"start":425.109,"end":428.974,"text":"分別可以虛擬折價1至5%就是說這種虛擬折價假設這種工程的業者他們投標金額是1億那"},{"start":436.997,"end":463.871,"text":"如果該業者能夠取得虛擬折價的一級那就可以減少投標金額的1%五級就是5%那有效的讓這種要建立排放減碳的這些業者能夠取得投標的一個優勢那這樣的一個公共工程委員會對於未來資料庫跟試算系統建立之後"},{"start":465.1,"end":483.694,"text":"如何要進行推廣以及運用有沒有初步的規劃來請說明一下目前公共工程委員會辦理金職獎的頒獎這個金職獎在押標金啊履歷保證等等都減少而且投標也會加分金職獎裡面有關於這個ESG的部分"},{"start":486.596,"end":505.054,"text":"是平分的那ESG裡面呢排碳是納入他的項目所以呢減碳這件事情如果具體做的話對他承攬相關工程是有優勢的是目前在進行的好這是一個重要的方向政策的方向那我必須要具體的建議了我們"},{"start":506.638,"end":526.275,"text":"在正式公開進行測試要採取這種逐步的而且是滾動檢討的方式來做實施的一個方向核算系統是本來就有提供給機關在基本設計審查的時候去規劃他的成本預算用現在是嫁接"},{"start":527.275,"end":548.232,"text":"另外就是說我們也要邀請業者來進行測試除了協助收集數據以及掀起輔導業者使用之外也可以同步的來收集業者使用的一個經驗提前來發現系統不良以及不足之處來進行相關的一個改善"},{"start":548.772,"end":576.27,"text":"好的這個我們會逐年那麼陸續跟業者呢就主辦機關互動然後來回饋一些意見來做修正另外最後的一些建議也就是2026年我們要進行相關的這些未來推動的規劃那包含系統的公開試用推廣以輔導到最後強制的這一種採用的期程規劃"},{"start":579.232,"end":605.951,"text":"強制採用的範圍對象金額規模的試行以及全面採用必須要分階段來實施那我們要逐步的來導入這種獎勵或者是剛才主委所說的金字獎或者是來研擬一下虛擬的這種折價或是其他相關的獎勵措施那而且我們要開放資料"},{"start":606.732,"end":606.832,"text":"好 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它是有侷限性的"},{"start":209.363,"end":238.285,"text":"他看各界的這個油氣源的一個不一樣需要做一個調查中油公司針對於全世界大概一百四十幾個有產油的這個地方他相關的這個原料的一個狀況包括他油品的一個狀況都有作為掌握那也感謝中油公司平常就是把這些基本功練好所以我們當遇到中東的戰事的時候我們很快的可以"},{"start":239.325,"end":248.009,"text":"國際油價漲了8%啦這個經濟破損中心是不是就繼續一直動漲不管漲多少8%、10%、20%我們都動漲是不是繼續動漲我每週都有固定的一個機制我問你是不是繼續動漲"},{"start":262.506,"end":290.136,"text":"我們現在看即時的油價的變化 比如說現在是賣房市場 現在是大家不管不計成本 不計價格搶到貨才是硬道理喔 全世界都這樣子喔無論是石油或是天然氣我們針對於未來數個月的所有的貨源都有掌握甚至是七月 八月 九月我們對現貨的部分都有掌握"},{"start":292.63,"end":308.358,"text":"現在因為美伊談判促交看起來油價要繼續漲我就問你一個問題是不是我們的政策不管它漲多少我們就繼續動漲我就問你 YES NO 就這樣我們每個禮拜檢討 每個月來檢討因為這個油氣的價格變動得非常的劇烈"},{"start":318.151,"end":345.569,"text":"這個話我做球給你不敢接喔你應該說越...我們就繼續動長啊怎麼會...對不對 按老百姓的心啊不然人家的物價 欸美國CPI已經漲了3.3%啦你現在台灣壓得這麼低就主要就是...感謝先生有相當多的一個鋪排包括物價的一個穩定到目前為止的話我們不像你剛剛所說的其他的國家有這麼大的一個物價的一個波動"},{"start":347.243,"end":362.706,"text":"嘴巴這樣講 我去旁邊的便利商店買的飲料都漲了10%這個東西就很奇怪 現在跟塑膠有關的都漲我看 請問石油存量到底是多少石油存量"},{"start":364.324,"end":385.174,"text":"10有存量的話我們目前都超過了法定的安全存量甚至有超過10有幾天啊?10有幾天?120天?法定的部分大概是90天90天?我們超過?我們都有超過天然氣咧?天然氣的話是11天11天?我們有超過?從開戰以來每天都超過何必什麼時候可以啟動?"},{"start":386.928,"end":400.98,"text":"去年11月27號台電公司提出了這個自主現況安全評估的部分經濟部已經核定了台電的一個現況的評估的作業台電公司在河山廠的一個再運轉計畫在今年的3月27號提出來明年可以嗎?2027可以嗎?"},{"start":412.874,"end":424.43,"text":"這個台電公司是一個電業的發言機關他提出了在用的總經理講一下嘛要需要核安會的審查我依照核安會的審查現在已經在審查了啦總經理你能不能講一下"},{"start":426.494,"end":447.104,"text":"報告委員那因為最樂觀啦 什麼時候可以重啟 最樂觀台電有一些東西是台電可能決定的就是在運轉計畫什麼時候送我們可以決定送了沒有我們已經送了合三的已經送了他們合安大概多久時間可以勝償團體這個就是要看合安會的委員正常過去多久時間"},{"start":449.608,"end":466.934,"text":"有啊 怎麼沒有 過去就半年到一年半啦 怎麼沒有呢我們也希望他們快一點 但是這不是我們能決定的所以只要一年 再一年 所以你們送了嘛 再一年那就是明年可以啦就這個意思啊會盡快啦 我想核安會會盡快回來我還是問市長啊 還有那個中央董事長啊三月份總共你補貼了多少補貼多少錢"},{"start":476.404,"end":502.337,"text":"到3月份的部分油價的部分大概是吸收了90億左右90億如果4月份繼續這樣子再90億是每個月補貸90億一直到10月是不是這個意思我們現在會依照油價的公式去看到目前為止累積的總有吸收了107.3億是關於油品的部分請教那個央行的副總裁好嗎"},{"start":504.088,"end":529.446,"text":"三位可以離開來專委董事長可以先丟手議員好議員好 你們原來總裁是要說全年的油價是85塊錢現在美伊談判不順利 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GDP怎麼看"},{"start":645.709,"end":672.295,"text":"因為一到三月呢其實三月它的影響是比較小所以我們三月的CPI是1.2整個GDP的影響因為也是第一季其實是整個狀況是不錯的到三月底嘛所以今年還是有時間到了今年渴望有七所以我們要看四月我們五月會重新做評估然後會有新的一個評估的數據出來總預算後天要協商嗎"},{"start":674.415,"end":689.942,"text":"你要不要承諾在這裡承諾我不過我看你承諾我都不可以院長打槍啊可不可以說我們省然後這個有關你軍人加薪案的部分我辦最佳預算可以嗎不是因為軍人加薪案涉及到制度的問題"},{"start":690.742,"end":710.056,"text":"他沒有說我從基層一次加三萬這樣子整個打破整個制度是整個迫害制度所以這不是我錢不錢的問題而是整個制度的問題所以必須在人事總署他這裡他做整個一個盤算去做一個改變所以你跟我講沒有用這不是我不要編的問題"},{"start":711.517,"end":713.139,"text":"我告訴你這個東西後天協商沒有各讓一步這個要讓啦我們總預算同時我們都希望總預算能夠順利來審查"},{"start":726.534,"end":741.931,"text":"承諾說未來可以追加預算按照去年的做法 這樣子就有順利了不是 拜委員 因為您也是這方面的行家所以到底是追加 怎麼追加 這是重點追加就300億就可以追加了 三一趴就300億啦三一趴就300億啦所以你如果說"},{"start":745.815,"end":773.137,"text":"統一加三萬我跟你講以後所有人人事制度全部垮了不會啦這個立法院全部垮了不要你光是說軍人的部分其他的公務人員的人事制度全部垮了不會啦人事總處的人事長但是我是主計長我必須要為這個制度整個的維持啊所以立法院通過了法案就你這環境是總統太院長的思維嗎就變成你們變成太上皇"},{"start":774.177,"end":799.347,"text":"民主國家就是依法行政 三讀通過的法律 你照做而執行卻有困難有困難事件 你可以提這個啊 你可以提復一啊復一提過啦 復一提啦不過啊 不過啊 不過你就照做啊 就變成這樣好啦 今天這部時間你插在哪裡謝謝 謝謝好天要有誠意就大家各讓一點啦我是跟你講 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是阿宅啊我们科技圈或者是非常多的职业的好朋友们其实也都把孩子们送到实验学校的环境实验教育的环境当中也都非常认同这样的一个发展方针那本席认为啊让每个孩子不受家庭社会经济条件的拘束都可以有平等的机会选择自己喜欢而且合适的教育方式是落实教育平权的唯一真谛"},{"start":58.288,"end":86.628,"text":"一样米羊百样人我自己小时候也是个怪咖那我非常有幸能够在一个良好的充满弹性的教育环境当中发展我们也相信每个孩子都能够找到最适合他的教育方式因此民国112年国民教育法大幅修正的时候针对六条新增第二项的未协助实验教育之发展主管机关应定定相关辅助规定"},{"start":87.898,"end":105.628,"text":"立法的意旨非常清楚,国家既然承认实验教育是教育体系当中的正当选项,就不能也不应该只在理念上支持,却在资源上放任它自生自灭,更不能让实验教育沦为只有特定家庭负担得起的选项。"},{"start":106.368,"end":124.849,"text":"那我们再说一次第6条新增第二项为协助实验教育之发展主管机关应订定相关补助规定然而三年的时间过去了我们看到教育部今天的书面报告还是指出114学年度全国实验教育学生人数已经高达27960人"},{"start":127.972,"end":143.501,"text":"而且人在稳定成长,这代表什么?代表实验教育不只是少数人的选项,而是越来越多家庭真实而且迫切的需求。但是令人遗憾的是,114学年度教育部对于实验教育的补助却只有3641万元。"},{"start":146.991,"end":175.52,"text":"换算下来相当于实验教育体系当中的学生每年每人一年只分配到1300元新台币平均一天不到4块钱本席在此要严肃的来请问教育部一天不到4元的资源投入究竟要如何协助实验教育的发展这样的预算编列是在回应法律的要求还是在敷衍法律的制度"},{"start":176.38,"end":193.206,"text":"是在落實教育平權還是在用象徵性的數字來掩蓋制度性的怠惰呢本席必須也希望能夠提醒教育部這不只是教育政策態度的問題更是憲法與人權義務的問題我國憲法第159條明確招式國民受教育之機會"},{"start":199.969,"end":221.568,"text":"一律平等而联合国的儿童权利公约所揭示保障及促进儿童及少年权利之规定在我国也具法律之效力儿童权利公约第28条明确规定缔约国确认儿童有接受教育之权利为使此项权利"},{"start":222.697,"end":247.525,"text":"能於機會平等之基礎上逐步實現締約國由因第一實現全面的免費義務小學教育第二鼓勵發展不同型態之中等教育包括普通教育職業教育使所有兒童均能進入就讀並採取適當措施諸如實行免費教育以及對有需求者提供財務協助"},{"start":249.626,"end":266.294,"text":"結果教育部現行對於實驗教育的補助對象仍然侷限於低收中低收以及身心障礙之學校教育形態的學生完全違背了憲法所揭示的國民有平等受教育的權利"},{"start":267.762,"end":291.216,"text":"教育部对于实验教育学生的差别待遇不只违法甚至有可能违宪最重要的是完全背离了教育平权的精神这样的补助设计实际上忽略了实验教育家庭所面临的普遍性负担也忽略了国家对多元教育选择本应承担的知识责任"},{"start":292.236,"end":320.386,"text":"此外本席也希望能够提醒教育部当实验教育逐步成长规模持续扩大之际国家关心的不能只有数量增加更必须正视品质的治理今天教育部的书面报告有提到各类型实验教育的数量都在增加这固然反映了社会的需求但数量成长绝不等于品质的提升近年来我们已经看到一些新设的实验学校"},{"start":321.366,"end":348.442,"text":"打着双语教育国际教育的旗号招生却被不少专家批评本质上更像是梅雨补习班一般补习班的延伸恐怕要变成超级补习班过度聚焦于特定技能的训练而忽略孩子的整体人格认知社会性与公民素养的完整发展这样的一种现象"},{"start":349.687,"end":372.788,"text":"已经偏离实验教育原本的精神实验教育的价值从来不是把教育商品化品牌化更不是用看似新潮的包装取代真正的教育理念与课程实践倘若主管机关对此缺乏足够的监督与把关任由补习班业者挂羊头卖狗肉"},{"start":374.209,"end":391.847,"text":"以實驗教育之名行補習教育之實那麼被侵蝕的不會只是教育的本質更是社會對整體實驗教育制度的信任還有我們的下一代在面對這樣類型的實驗教育的時候所受到的影響"},{"start":393.137,"end":422.034,"text":"因此本席希望能够在此明确提出三点要求第一教育部应紧述依国民教育法之立法一旨全面检讨并且提出更具实质意义的实验教育补助制度而不是用象征性的经费每人每天平均四块钱新台币这样子的一种平均分配的金额来象征性的编列敷衍"},{"start":423.254,"end":438.289,"text":"法律的責任第二教育部從真正落實平等受教權與教育選擇權的角度出發針對實驗教育建立更公平更合理更可禁用的知識體系第三"},{"start":439.622,"end":460.535,"text":"教育部应启动对于实验教育三法施行成效的总体检,尤其要强化品质监督,防止实验教育逐渐补习般化。如有必要,应该全盘来检讨实验三法是否有必要在未来可能成为专法的一种可能性。"},{"start":461.676,"end":489.886,"text":"最后本席想要再次强调实验教育从来不是教育体制的例外而是教育改革的试金石国家如何对待实验教育反映的甚是我们如何理解孩子如何理解公平如何理解国家的责任如果一个社会口口声声说尊重多元保障选择创造实验就让孩子的教育选择权取决于家长口袋的深度"},{"start":490.891,"end":507.542,"text":"如果一个政府一方面高谈教育的创新,另外一方面却用一天不到四块钱新台币的资源来对待接近三万名的实验教育的学生,那么我们所辜负的将不只是法律,更是下一代对国家的信任。"},{"start":508.402,"end":523.463,"text":"我們相信有今天這樣的一個公聽會我們也非常感謝我們五六R主席以及我們所有全體的立法委員都會一起來關注教育不該只有一種標準的答案但國家負有一個明確的責任"},{"start":523.843,"end":544.289,"text":"那就是不论孩子走的是哪一种学习的道路只要是合法正当符合教育本质的道路国家就有义务给予平等的尊重与实质的支持这才是真正的教育平权这才是我们今天讨论实验教育的时候应该共同守住的底线"},{"start":545.109,"end":567.315,"text":"再次感謝我們教委安排今天的實驗教育公聽會也非常感謝諸位的與會以及專家學者所提供的寶貴意見我們會後都會仔細的研讀現場我們會來聆聽同時我們也希望能夠我們跨黨團跨黨派的我們一起來研議如何能夠讓實驗教育做得更好謝謝大家"}]}},{"id":"168436","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168436","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5655ee4938da65e1742c02b33ca238aa306a382356a5b2195b9b854957482d50ed7291032b546b1c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"09:33:23 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謝謝主席今天我們要修正刑法第八十條之一條文這是一個非常重要的條文大家都知道這個未成年遭受到強制性的性侵這是非常嚴重的事情對他們身心都造成難以抹滅的傷害但是現在在實務上只要過了這個追溯期這些受到傷害的孩子"},{"start":33.151,"end":44.499,"text":"他們的正義完全沒有辦法被伸張所以今天本席提出來的修法就是要來解決這樣子的一個困境喔還給受害的這一些未成年人該有的司法正義那我的版本主要是"},{"start":52.185,"end":72.021,"text":"希望這個在第八十條之一明定對未成年人犯下各類妨礙性自主罪包含了對未成年使用暴力、脅迫的強制性交、利用對方年幼的猥褻行為以及利用私生親屬等權利關係或欺騙手段發生的性侵害行為"},{"start":72.902,"end":92.794,"text":"加害人將不再適用現行追溯時效的規範也就是如果你對未成年人做出這一些不當的性侵害的行為這個追溯期是沒有這個時效20年的時效它是沒有上限的可以一直追溯"},{"start":93.294,"end":118.521,"text":"只要受害的當事人他敢把這件事情講出來希望司法還給他正義的時候我們國家的司法就應該要追溯到底喔這個是我的版本那現在行政院提出來的版本他是等成年以後再去算20年但是民間團體也已經講了如果是這樣的算法的話如果是2006年這個發生的案子"},{"start":121.462,"end":148.184,"text":"恐怕在我們現在通過的法令裡面也得不到追溯期這個是既然我們要修法我認為不可以再出現有類似這樣的一個漏洞既然要還給這些孩子他當時在未成年所受到的傷害應有的正義那現在行政院這個版本恐怕是有漏洞的沒有辦法完全補足這樣的一個缺口所以我希望在這個法條討論的時候"},{"start":150.726,"end":153.867,"text":"行政院應該要針對你們現在所提出的這個修法版本民間團體已經指出來這個漏洞還是會有一些人2006年以前如果發生的案子恐怕就完全被排除在外那這樣的正義也不是完全的正義這個是現在民間團體也已經看出來行政院版本所存在的漏洞所以本席認為我提出來的這個版本"},{"start":176.696,"end":186.888,"text":"是可以完全回復這一些未成年人他們所受到的傷害與正義那也敬請大院各位委員大家共同來支持修法通過 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往往處於相對的弱勢地位權力不對等的一個關係未成年的被害人 常常因為他的年齡 他的知識 他的生長環境 心理狀態等等根本就沒有能力 更不敢對加害者提出刑事的告訴他們甚至因為恐懼或羞愧而未能在第一時間鼓起勇氣來站出來面對"},{"start":48.054,"end":53.897,"text":"這絕對不是個案 而是長期存在的問題因為根據法務部的統計從2015年到2024年之間因為追訴時效完成而無法起訴的性侵害案件高達248件而且數字逐年攀升 這代表什麼呢"},{"start":67.183,"end":92.732,"text":"這個代表有數百位的受害者在他們願意鼓起勇氣面對的那一刻法律卻已經將他們前往人生希望之門的內道希望之光的那扇門關掉了如果我們堅持時效必須從犯罪成立之日起算對那些在黑暗中等待長大的孩子們而言無疑是二次傷害那現行的中華民國刑法第八十條規定"},{"start":93.792,"end":106.476,"text":"追溯權的時效是從犯罪成立之日起算那麼對於未成年人性侵害性侵被害人而言這樣的設計事實上是等同懲罰被害人而不是加害人因此台灣民眾黨黨團針對這個刑法第八十條條文提出了修正草案我們參考了性騷擾防治法第十四條第二項有關未成年被害人與性騷擾案件提起申訴時效"},{"start":122.441,"end":141.957,"text":"特別規定我們也參考了性侵害犯罪防治法的第二條有關性侵害犯罪之定義明確的規定對於未成年人犯性侵害犯罪者其追溯權之時效自被害人成年之日起算對未成年人性侵犯"},{"start":143.496,"end":163.952,"text":"犯了性侵犯的犯罪者 其罪處審的時效自被害人成年之日起算這不只是單純的條文修正 更是補足制度上的漏洞 回應被害人的真實的處境並表達我們對兒少保護的一個堅定的立場 捍衛公平正義跟重視生命價值我們選擇保障"},{"start":166.013,"end":193.526,"text":"被害人權益而不是放任制度去造成被害人一輩子的身心受創守護未成年的受害者讓正義有機會發生讓傷害不再被時間掩蓋這就是我們提出修法的目的我也希望各位同事各位行政機關代表能夠支持刑法第八十條的修正草案修補法律的漏洞給未成年性侵害被害人一個遲來正義的修正草案謝謝 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謝謝主席那我想今天非常高興可以來這邊跟大家來討論有關於時間教育的部分因為我自己有兩個小孩其實在小學階段在五年級之前都是自學生那為什麼在五年級之後有人走上了他們都回到了體制呢那最主要是真的是小孩的選擇上面我的老大呢他自己是覺得他自己還"},{"start":30.341,"end":55.783,"text":"應該說在五年前的時候我們都會讓他們回到體制試試看接下來他們的選擇是在哪裡那現在都選擇了回到了一般的體制上面所以我想我在過去呢在兩個小孩都在自學的階段其實是將近非常長的一段時間所以今天也是可以看到許多在實驗教育在現場第一個現場的一些問題所以像特別就是有關於特教資源相當的不足"},{"start":56.924,"end":79.694,"text":"在教委委員會其實也積極的爭取了我們在實驗教育的一個特教資源的部分那也非常感謝教育部的支持讓這個新的資源呢一些申請都在去年年底上路了那今天我想要再跟大家來討論一些更明確的事情就是特別就是說我們現在從過去只有2000多人那在10年這10年蓬勃的發展已經將近3萬人"},{"start":81.415,"end":100.112,"text":"那這非常代表的很明確的一件事就是說家長對於教育的選擇上面是走向了更多元化的一個選擇大家是有更多的期待所以這條路其實是對的但是呢我想現在也必須要審慎的來去面對下一個階段因為我們有許多的配套沒有跟上首先第一個就是說我們在審議與評鑑的制度過於僵化就是說"},{"start":102.034,"end":120.568,"text":"实验教育的核心其实是多元跟弹性可是我们在许多的团体跟学校的反应是说可能相关的一些审查过程还是用一个传统教育的观点和标准来看待以我自己个人的经历我就曾经经过就是我们在审查的时候有委员跟我说你的课表没有完全排满"},{"start":122.603,"end":142.585,"text":"這是非常明確的他要求我每一個時間都要排滿這樣子所以我自己也非常了解就是說因為其實是一個非常應該彈性更多元的非標準化的教育可是還是用一個非常標準化的制度在檢視我的自學申請這樣子那這樣子的設計的本質上面就是有非常大的一個衝突那"},{"start":143.326,"end":173.026,"text":"第二个问题呢我想来就是今天许多团体都有提到的场地的问题这是最现实的一个瓶颈就是说法规上面看起来是开放的有可以使用公有空间跟闲置校舍可是实务上却是常常遇到借不到住不到流程卡关的问题就以我最近一直收到同心华德福的一个的一个陈情啦就过去他们从万华走到了文山区可是呢又因为台北市政府的一个规划开发他们又需要做千里那就是造成什么问题"},{"start":173.266,"end":186.983,"text":"是学生就学的稳定性受到一个影响那也就是说政府虽然鼓励了多元教育可是却缺乏了长期稳定的一个校地配置机制形成了一个很大的制度落差"},{"start":188.035,"end":214.444,"text":"而且同心华的福也不是唯一的个案像今天来的卢族的这个外设国小也有同样的一个问题那再来就是说我们针对于我们的资源配置的方式呢也还是用一个学生的人头数来去计算可是因为实验教育本身就是小班制个别化教学或者是有较高的辅导或是特教需求所以就变成是说如果是用传统的逻辑来去分配资源的话"},{"start":214.744,"end":239.494,"text":"那就是越有特色的教育反而越難能夠生存那第四個就是整體的制度上面我們還有整合不足的一個問題就是說我們現在跟國民教育法的關係其實並不清楚補助制度也不一致教師的權益也沒有明確的定位升學的銜接存在不確定性所以就是說我們的制度雖然存在但是不是一個非常完整穩定的系統"},{"start":240.294,"end":254.993,"text":"所以我想总结来说这个其实对于学生还有家长来说甚至我们的办学者来说都是产生了非常不必要的风险就例如说光找学校校地这件事情就变成是每隔几年就要奔波一次就要烦恼一次"},{"start":256.587,"end":280.883,"text":"所以我想我们接下来的政策应该要往三个方式来调整就是说我们的神异与贫贱的机制应该要回到多元教育的本质那第二个呢政府应该要真正的解决场地跟资源的问题那第三个呢就是我们要补强整体的制度的设计让实验教育成为一个稳定的教育体制因为我想每个人其实都不一定能够走同一条路那实验教育就提供了不同的选择"},{"start":281.263,"end":309.786,"text":"那最後我想要提一個也是大家可以一起來討論的就是說剛剛陳培源委員也有提到說有一些學校他們可能是提供了這個護學籍給我們的實驗教育的學生但是當這個學生這個實驗教育的學生發生了不管是學校的霸凌或是性侵性騷擾的事件的時候到底是誰來承接這個案件因為公立學校的校長也告訴我說照理來講應該是他們因為資源是配置到這個學校可是"},{"start":310.186,"end":330.28,"text":"這個學校的輔導體系跟這教老師跟這個孩子其實並沒有建立相關的連結跟情感其實他也很難去介入來處理所以我想這也是一個我們也必須要來接下來也必須要省上來討論的一個很細緻的問題如何來處理像這樣子的一個孩子的一個權益那這個就是我今天以上的發言謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168461","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168461","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5655ee4938da65e18599269d93253b79306a382356a5b219aa0fde58f0e31cf2c9a64353dbdea2ca5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"10:59:57 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麻煩有請我們的馮次長請馮次長次長早"},{"start":31.981,"end":52.445,"text":"法務部在去年8月12號就公告刑法80條的修正草案行政院在今年的1月29號通過讓當時幼年受到性侵害的兒少得以在成年後救濟我覺得這是值得肯定不過事實上要問的是為何刑法第286條的"},{"start":55.458,"end":69.568,"text":"防礙幼童的自然發育罪以及我們的兒少性剝削條例中的多項重罪並沒有同步的去比照修正因為這樣同樣在幼年的時候遭受到嚴重凌虐的時候"},{"start":71.149,"end":91.517,"text":"她因為於時效之後而不法就近因為最近我們收到的個案就是這些所以導致當時為了保護兒少身心健康健全的立法目的就不復存在我不知道這樣的修當初只有去處理我們的八十條的這個卻沒有去考慮到這個當時修法的考量是什麼"},{"start":92.912,"end":114.035,"text":"我們基本上針對這樣的條文的一個修正他還是針對說我們的一個追溯權希望能夠保障我們的這個遭到性侵害的這樣的一個對象的這樣的一個法例然後去做一個就是在時效上就是說往後從20歲以後就在這個不算就之前不算入的這樣的一個狀況他是希望是說追溯權能夠"},{"start":114.796,"end":139.743,"text":"理解說這個兒少他的這個等於是 可是同樣這個也是很嚴重在刑法286條 對然後針對兒少的主管的這個部會 因為他是衛福部嘛那我們的這個部分是針對於性侵害的國安局 次長也回去研議好不好因為我覺得這部分對我們來講蠻重要那謝謝次長那主席有請我們的刑事廳的許廳長跟民事廳的林廳長好 請許廳長"},{"start":144.824,"end":152.45,"text":"兩位聽長今年國家衛生研究院公布我們的私自流行病學的調查大家退估65歲去年達到38萬接下來130年的時候會達40萬那140年的時候可能會去達到了70萬以上"},{"start":161.236,"end":181.744,"text":"那也就是代表我們的持續事實上往上攀升而且相關研究也指出超過一半的失智症患者實際上是沒有被正確的辨識跟診斷的那依據我們的CRPD也就是新生權公約在司法程序上應提供的合理調整可是實務上當一名未被妥善診斷欠缺病識感的失智患者"},{"start":185.525,"end":199.421,"text":"進入到偵查或是審判程序的時候就會可能產生記憶的混亂 陳述的矛盾這些狀況那這些人可能會成為刑事的受害人甚至是證人 甚至是被告"},{"start":200.302,"end":219.037,"text":"那韓國最近就有新聞出來說專挑失智老人下手不罰金流高達40億元所以我們要的事實上是假設失智症患者今天不幸成為原告被告如果確保他們有一場公平的審判所以想問我們的許廷長實務上對這些到底法律上可以怎麼樣的協助"},{"start":219.901,"end":234.049,"text":"是 報告委員那關於失智症這個患者他的司法禁用權的部分其實有失智症他可能屬於身心障礙權利公約及我國身心障礙定義的包含範圍之內那他應該是身心障礙鑑定類別如果他明確的診斷"},{"start":235.41,"end":251.462,"text":"那他應該歸類為這個神經系統構造精神心智功能的障礙那如果在沒有明確有診斷的時候他也可能依照這個社會模式也可能被包涉入這個身心障礙範圍內那關於這些失智症這些心智功能障礙者他"},{"start":252.402,"end":278.339,"text":"司法院其實它有做一個CRPD的司法指引來指引法官如何照顧他們特殊的需求並作為合理調整比如說它必須提供多元的溝通輔具或者調整書面資料跟資訊的呈現或者是調整法庭訊問的方式與態度那允許陪同之時以盡力心愛關係那這部分或許沒有一個各個民事送法它有一個相關的讓它可以進入的條款比如說像刑事送法35條"},{"start":279.54,"end":292.918,"text":"他就有規定這個因精神障礙或其他心智缺陷無法完成的時候他有一個輔佐人 專業人員的制度我現在時間上的關係是不是 先問一下那個林廷長也是這樣嗎同樣的在民法上"},{"start":293.502,"end":322.017,"text":"是那個跟委員報告那個剛才許廷長講的實際上是一個司法禁用權司法行政的資源就是說這些弱勢者到司法法院來應訴的時候那個有關一些方法的部分但是委員剛才提到某些個案失智老人的問題那個涉及到個別案件如何認定比如說他在程序上有輔佐人或者實際上面他是屬於民法上的精神耗弱之人"},{"start":322.817,"end":349.343,"text":"等等這些會個別按進不同的請求權個別去適用因為現在目前就是民間團體跟我們講說他們接觸到非常多這樣的案子可是呢真的事實上是進入到被告的時候呢事實上他們之前就是沒有被診斷出來所以想續問是說司法院目前對於第一線的司法人員是不是有受過相關的身心障礙的專業訓練能不能在第一時間"},{"start":350.603,"end":354.451,"text":"知道這些病徵然後立即採取必要的一些協助來處理這個問題"},{"start":359.222,"end":385.12,"text":"關於這種如何去保障他的司法金融權他實體法上跟訴訟法上其實都有相應的機制那他如果有這樣的一個狀況他往往在訴訟程序上或是在相關的這個情況下會產生相關的這個現象那這部分通常必須要用鑑定制度來加以處理那委員可能會想說對 可是現在就是說因為很多我們就看現在很多而且私自事實上是有年輕化的狀態"},{"start":385.821,"end":389.754,"text":"可能第一時間都沒有辦法被診斷出來的時候你們有沒有更積極的一些作為"},{"start":392.638,"end":421.237,"text":"關於這個失智症的辨別確實是有相當困難那其實他的家人應該是能夠比法官更了解他那其實在這種狀況之下他家人或是說他親近信賴之人假設能夠陪同那是應該是可以協助法官來發現這樣的狀況並且啟動進一步的措施那在以刑事訴訟法來講那關於社工人員或其他專業人員都可以作為輔助人陪同到場而且他應該有主管機關或相關社福機公所指標"},{"start":421.537,"end":438.522,"text":"還是這一類人員最後我問一個問題許廷長未來是否有考慮將精神障礙的人比照我們的精神衛生法因為我剛剛問是這個我現在問是精神障礙的人比照我們的精神衛生法庭的一個制度"},{"start":438.982,"end":449.071,"text":"由精神科醫師進入一般法庭參與審判或是考慮我們設置精神障礙的專庭由專業知識的相關的法官來進行審判"},{"start":453.53,"end":469.779,"text":"提到一個怎麼樣讓專業引入司法他怎麼樣才是一個最適合的機制那以這個精神衛生法庭當然他是一個相當優良的一個制度但這個專業審判他就是他可以整合司法跟醫療但是如果是就是說針對這樣的狀況他要去做"},{"start":472.38,"end":499.557,"text":"擴及到所有這個在各種程序都有這一種鑽停的時候它可能會有一些挑戰比如說資源量的分布目前這個可能會面臨到說某一些偏遠地區或是說它的資源怎麼樣配置我們現在司法的人力是已經非常緊繃了有沒有辦法再負擔這樣子這個可不可以帶回去去研擬考慮為什麼因為現在已經是一個很嚴重的趨勢也是一個問題點尤其事實上"},{"start":500.097,"end":520.747,"text":"我們去年就有38萬而且事實上是沒有被發現的所以最後麻煩我們的司法院進駐我們研擬兒少保護立法不足的部分那要麻煩次長還有針對於研擬設置專庭跟專家參審的制度麻煩我們的司法院在一個月內可不可以給我相關的我們一個月內來研議並報告再麻煩謝謝主席 謝謝林好 謝謝林委員"}]}},{"id":"168460","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168460","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5655ee4938da65e1ca53f29eee913d9a81f6660fd2e34289aa0fde58f0e31cf2dff3bbbc96e0e24c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"10:56:24 - 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主席有請蔡明彥蔡局長請蔡局長好 謝謝主席 林委員好"},{"start":18.061,"end":34.476,"text":"我想有關於這個席政會的結束之後那麼這個中國方面的官媒新華社所發布的這個有關於十項對台十點剛剛前面其實有委員已經提到了不過我們來統整一下我昨天第一時間其實就跟媒體說了這個號稱大禮包其實是回鍋菜"},{"start":38.599,"end":65.714,"text":"很多的這個十項當中有九項其實都是舊的只是呢送給台灣他不開心就再要回去這是最沒誠意的送法沒有人送禮是說送回去之後我開心送你但我不開心不好意思還來那對於台灣民眾都看得非常清楚但是呢在上個禮拜的此時我們都還在討論我們的國防特別條例然後甚至於呢我們舉行了一場國民黨立委全部缺席的"},{"start":66.854,"end":81.921,"text":"朝野協商所以以至於延後到這個禮拜也就是禮拜四或禮拜五不一定現在還不知道但是就要看國民黨要不要出席不過這個很擺明了所謂實相的交流策略其實就是過去我們一直在講的統戰手法"},{"start":83.462,"end":88.984,"text":"但是如果說我們細拆來看不論是自由行或是金馬四通或是農漁產輸出或者是更多的兩岸航班包括廈門航線這個東西根據兩岸人民關係條例其實都是必須要官方對官方來做協商所以這也是為什麼"},{"start":103.628,"end":120.703,"text":"在席政會結束之後美國的國務院第一時間就罕見的用說希望中國也應該跟台灣的民選政府來做交流而不是只選特定的對象那麼雖然這個是故技重施是這個回鍋菜"},{"start":121.704,"end":121.764,"text":"嗯,好"},{"start":141.686,"end":162.52,"text":"謝謝委員提到這個問題,因為今天早上媒體朋友也在關心這個問題。我們認為說每次到了選舉的時候,中共都會提出所謂的會台措施來。像委員所提到的這些會台措施,包括是兩岸的觀光的交流,或是農漁產品的採購,大概在歷次台灣選舉之前都曾經被當成一個議題,來進行相關的操作。"},{"start":164.341,"end":192.692,"text":"那特別早上我們在討論的時候也特別提醒到中共在進行操作過程當中也會有一種所謂的區隔對待那這些所謂的會台措施會特別撕毀給特定的縣市團體產業或是個人那所以我們是在呼籲說假如中共要推動相關的兩岸的交流或經貿往來的話可能還是要循管到來跟政府來做相關的一個接觸那必須由政府來做相關的一個評估規劃跟推動才有可能來避免到"},{"start":193.692,"end":221.201,"text":"這種中共類似做這種區隔對待所產生的風險跟後遺症那所以這部分我們有做一些相關分析早上也跟王定委員在說明國安會這邊也有一個跨部會的機制所以我們這邊所看到的狀況都有做跟其他部會的分享所以可能委員會注意到昨天在第一時間應該各個部會在下午一兩點大概陸陸續續都有一個完整的政策說明來讓民眾更了解中共對台這種借權跟統戰的手法"},{"start":221.667,"end":242.239,"text":"好對於夏寶包括經濟部第一時間就有講到有關於台灣跟中國方面其實他們的經濟往下走而且的經濟GDP等等跟台灣是有很大的差異的這種會台很可能都是口會實不至但是過去其實一直以來不是我們不交流而是中共"},{"start":242.999,"end":263.418,"text":"以選擇性的方式的所謂的以讀不回那這個部分事實上我相信民眾有些人知道有些人不知道而現在他已經丟出了這個直球我要問的是那如果包括農產品的部分農委會的態度或者是有關於開放觀光交通部的態度"},{"start":264.879,"end":272.982,"text":"甚至於說有關於自由行的部分在相關的部會是不是乾脆就直球對決就問他們說我們現在要談了你們什麼時候要來談因為過去其實不是我們不談嘛是他們對我們以讀不回嘛那我們現在要不要就直接直球對決直接就說好啊來談啊"},{"start":285.025,"end":307.359,"text":"各部會的立場我想我不適合預舉去幫他們做說明不過整體上我剛才跟委員說明報告的重點是中共對台這種借選統戰操作的那個手法面對這樣的一個手法我們特別要警示的是他有點是指跟特別特定的政黨來釋放這樣的訊息而避開了兩岸既有官方的一些溝通的管道"},{"start":307.679,"end":330.173,"text":"那假如真的中方有意願來推動這些所謂的措施的話應該要尋管道來提出他們更具體的想法那否則初步來看很多的一個說法在之前提過之後又沒有實際的一些具體的跟政府的接觸的話那感覺上就有點口惠食不吃的好 所以衰本席也是希望啦透過這個國安局這邊包括今天的質詢啦我覺得這是一個好機會啦我們就是"},{"start":333.038,"end":339.16,"text":"球來就打 我們就直接接球也呼籲這個中國啊既然希望要交流 要溝通 要找對對象不要呢 就是只找特定的對象的時候然後又說我們不交流這個部分我認為其實我是覺得是一個好的直接來溝通的機會在對等的原則之下不要預設這個什麼非得要"},{"start":358.225,"end":382.54,"text":"台灣是中國的一部分在對等的情況底下我覺得這是一個交流的機會另外當然就是去年的10月15號的時候我也有質詢過就是有關於灰色侵擾那麼跟今天其實這個我們的主題是切合的那麼在去年質詢之後呢其實就沒有這個所謂的比較看得到的具體的就是說這個用橡皮艇啊或什麼來度"},{"start":384.682,"end":398.641,"text":"偷渡進來台灣那但是呢就像今天的報告所提出來的因為八月之後受到東北季風的影響當然就比較不利於像這種所謂小橡皮艇啊或什麼進入言下之意那就是三月到八月根據報告講的"},{"start":399.522,"end":407.063,"text":"就是一個再次有發生所謂小艇偷渡的狀況那也就是說從現在開始又會進入一個可能的高峰期或是可能的案例出現的狀況那麼對於從去年到現在因為我們的總預算被卡關的狀況底下那麼我們在國安單位跟海巡署當中有做了哪些加強的聯繫以防這個再有同樣的案例出現呢"},{"start":427.987,"end":455.122,"text":"我想今天大會這邊安排這樣的一個專題報告我覺得很及時因為接下來4月到8月本來就是這種小型艇侵擾的一個主要的告風季節那大概國安局這邊有兩個部分的工作推動跟委員做個報告第一個部分就是針對已經發生的這些侵擾的這些小船我們來釐清楚背後的一個可能的動機跟他的一個可能犯罪的一個手法所以國安局這邊我們是有發布一個非常明確的清詢的"},{"start":456.642,"end":480.715,"text":"詢問的一些題目讓我們一線的海巡單位的弟兄在抓到這些偷渡犯之後在進行清訊跟調查的時候那個是有一個問題的問卷那我們可以逐一透過這些問題來釐清可能犯罪的動機那第二部分我們這邊有成立專案那在查查的部分是由高檢署來指揮我們相關的國安情報機關包括海巡署、警政署、縣指部還有移民署"},{"start":481.095,"end":505.301,"text":"那過程當中我們也會分享相關的一個情資而且我們這邊也預定各種偷渡案件的通報它有通報的要項不是隨便通報 而是通報的要有哪些的重點要項那這樣子才可以達到我們橫向聯繫的一個目的那另外一個部分也跟委員說明報告的海巡署在今天的書面資料也提到他們後續有一些比較新的科技裝備或是監偵設備的建置"},{"start":506.641,"end":520.961,"text":"那這部分我上個月才到海巡署我們有做非常密切的一個討論怎麼樣運用比較新的科技或智能化的數據管理可以對於海上的動態能夠有更進一步的掌握那這部分我們來持續提升我們的量能"},{"start":521.596,"end":540.821,"text":"好但是這個又要馬好不能讓馬而不吃草我們都知道這個總預算當中其實是有部分是在這個所謂不能用原先的也是前一年度的來做執行的那這個部分不知道會不會有影響來剩下一點時間我是不是可以請海巡署主席我請海巡署"},{"start":544.008,"end":563.437,"text":"局長可以先請回好 那麼剛剛蔡局長有特別提到的那就是我們現在在一些設備跟技術跟科技上面希望做加強監測的部分那麼海巡署在這個部分這些器材是原有的嗎還是說其實必須是編列在新的項目裡面可以沿用舊的計畫的經費來做設備的更新嗎"},{"start":567.007,"end":595.698,"text":"根本幫助我們聯友的這個設備升級以外我們在特別預算裡面我們獲得預算然後未來我們會加強在新式的這個岸際雷達還有黃黃線熱影像以及環海諸位型監控部分來做處理那我想這個在116年之前會全部都建置完畢那就會變成一個完整的一個整個海域裡面的監控一個一個整個一個系統那我們會把這些相關的這些收整回來這些資訊會提供給國防部跟友軍來做參考"},{"start":596.766,"end":615.059,"text":"好不好意思我再問仔細一點您剛提到的是特別預算是放在哪裡的特別預算已經通過上次的那個國防政經特別預算裡面是好那麼在新的年度在115年度的預算當中有放進來嗎還是就是直接放在特別預算當中"},{"start":615.339,"end":642.298,"text":"在特別預算那115年預算有一部分是延續性的預算那也是在振作範圍裡面好那麼所以說既然有預算了那我希望接下來從3月開始從上個月開始到8月中間這個報告也特別提到了會有這樣的狀況出現的時候我希望這些設備預算跟人力上面都能夠增強我們在海防上面避免灰色侵擾是是好謝謝委員好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168453","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168453","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5655ee4938da65e121e8db0266265f72306a382356a5b219291cfc8066c9e4d9e08a2c5bfbd339ef5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許宇甄","委員發言時間":"10:36:05 - 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我們請法務部馮次長司法院許廷長好 請馮次長跟許廷長次長好 廷長好有關有一個案子要跟您這邊請教就是印尼籍的失聯移工就是以一萬元的代價將銀行的賬戶賣給詐騙集團導致三名台灣民眾受騙損失金額是11.9萬那法院的判決是判處"},{"start":39.037,"end":66.631,"text":"四個月的徒刑並克罰金一萬並要求服刑後驅逐出境但是被告呢早在判決前四個月就已經搭機離境導致判決書完全無法執行形同廢紙那請問許廷長這樣的一個狀況我們的判決還有什麼意義嗎就好像對著空氣判決因為他早在這個判刑前四個月就已經離境了那請問這是不是現行的普遍的現象呢請問許廷長"},{"start":68.736,"end":87.079,"text":"包委員這個部分應該是個案上有一些問題但不表示整體制度都有失靈的現象這個部分我來報告關於這一件案子其實當初這個被告他是經過通緝盜案後來他就是被收容"},{"start":87.6,"end":115.454,"text":"那移民署他台北收容所他是在113年6月12日他就發函給基隆地檢署而且告知他是依照移民法這個如果移民法來告知這個預定在6月25號執行遣返但是基隆地檢署他的6月25日起訴已審到基隆地院的時候他並沒有去註記或是給法院這個訊息那法院他收到這個起訴書那在113年7月1日收案那在7月4號改行檢疫判決處刑程序"},{"start":115.894,"end":127.594,"text":"那這段期間他都沒有在獲檢察署轉資那移民署他是認為說我已經依照法律規定告知司法機關而且請這個基隆地檢署在這個部分做適當的那所以這個是算基隆地檢署的措施嗎"},{"start":128.328,"end":150.796,"text":"如果當初基隆地檢署他在起訴的時候有所註記或許可以比較可以避免這個那當然不能說全部都是地檢署的疏失因為這個他在收容中那收容也可能被遣返所以那請問一下那次長最可靠的方式就是法官如果他也能夠限制出行出海那這個部分其實他就有一個司法的控制控制他能夠到庭來執行"},{"start":152.092,"end":167.465,"text":"那請問一下市長這個狀況我想就是委員講的這個部分我們法部真的是高度重視因為事實上我們的司法就是說在最終就是說要能夠像委員講的判下去要達到它的一個司法的效果"},{"start":167.825,"end":183.081,"text":"否則的話如果說是沒有辦法執行的話那這樣當然就會造成說民眾對於司法上面的一個信任度就會不足那這個部分上金融遞減的一個就有沒有剛剛的這個狀況或做法還有沒有辦法更進一步的部分我們回去會請金融遞減署這邊研究"},{"start":183.922,"end":205.534,"text":"因為這個部分我們不希望說事實上警方很辛苦的抓人然後檢察官可能起訴法官審理都耗費了這麼多的一個行政的一個時間跟資源說到最後卻抓不到人因為人早就遣返了其實這我覺得是在我們通報的上面事實上是有很我覺得有失靈的狀況那這個部分的話可能要請我們法務部跟司法局這邊"},{"start":206.494,"end":212.816,"text":"大家都要通靈合作 要怎麼樣才能夠杜絕這樣的狀況 否則的話這樣詐騙的這個案件這個頻傳喔 那只要大家就是想說詐騙集團就是我就找這樣的這個失聯義工來去那個帳戶來去做我們詐騙集團的這個這個掩護的話 那事實上等於抓到也沒事啊 因為他就遣返啊所以這個部分可能要麻煩一下 那尤其是喔"},{"start":230.743,"end":255.081,"text":"現在的入出國籍移民法第36條規定遣返前10日的通報屬於刑事的通知所以目前在司法案件爆量之下檢方跟法院根本沒有辦法在10天內看到通報而且在極短的時間內完成起訴或判決所以這樣的讓移工在台灣犯案非常的容易那所以針對這個部分有沒有什麼樣子的一個我們可以解決的方式"},{"start":258.086,"end":282.515,"text":"跟委員報告 其實利用移工還有一些公司的人頭賬戶這些來做詐騙的部分事實上我們現在都有注意到這個現象那針對這個部分上我們也會針對制度面以及我們的宣導面還有我們查緝面的部分來做落實那希望是說能夠杜絕掉就這樣子利用一些弱勢利用一些移工來做這樣的詐欺犯罪的一個行為"},{"start":283.459,"end":302.706,"text":"所以剛剛講到這個移工的部分剛好最近呢就是勞動部說要開放印度的這個移工來台那當然引起非常大的一個這個大概各界的一個質疑啦因為尤其在一個公共政策的網路參與平台才短短的幾天其實就有三萬多人表達反對的意見"},{"start":303.666,"end":328.066,"text":"那當然針對這樣子的移工的犯案之後尤其是這樣的一個案子移工犯案之後結果也就是這樣子就出盡了完全沒有受到任何的裁決那民眾會有擔心這樣子的一個問題那所以在現在的這個司法的一個狀況之下如果這個漏洞沒有把它補好的話事實上再開放移工來台灣會不會讓大家覺得非常的擔心台灣會不會變成這樣子的一個犯罪天堂"},{"start":331.741,"end":343.307,"text":"我想我們會就我們的部分就是說做好我們該做的那個部分就是說針對於說犯罪後是不是他們會有逃亡的這一個部分我們會跟司法院這邊做好一個這個聯繫"},{"start":345.164,"end":366.609,"text":"當然我想其實現在人民對司法的不滿不是因為這個個案而已而是因為標準明顯的失衡像現在大家非常反彈就是法務部對於我們的清潔隊員電鍋案表示因為貪污製作條例的法定行眾不屬於刑事訴訟法可以違罪不舉的空間所以呢我們的這個基層清潔隊員僅未轉送一個殘值32.56元的舊電鍋給一個實荒的婦人"},{"start":372.95,"end":392.184,"text":"但是還是遭到起訴判有罪那反觀我們的監察委員啊前監察院秘書長私用公務車接送寵物美容然後送家人接送機這些呢檢方最後卻以自付郵費順路使用等理由牽結認定無不法意圖這會讓人家看到的不是法律一致而是對基層從嚴對高官"},{"start":394.705,"end":422.719,"text":"從寬喔所以次長請教一下檢察官現在用自付油錢來幫監委護航這叫沒有損害國庫但是呢請問公務車司機的薪水加班費是誰付的是監委自己付的還是全民納稅人付的車子的保養費車子的折舊費不用花公務預算來支付嗎所以這難道不是侵佔公務資源為什麼到了監委手上就只要付了油錢就變成了私人的這個租賃車可以隨意接送寵物美容"},{"start":423.579,"end":447.794,"text":"送家人接送機呢?其實法務部當然我們對具體的各辦原則上我們是我們不會去做干預不介入也不會指導我們會尊重甲官的行使職權但是這個案子已經造成對社會的一個非常這個案件當然不會是指以說是不是支付油錢來做牽結啦他是依照刑法上面來講就是說針對考綜合的考量"},{"start":448.354,"end":465.789,"text":"是不是用車時間、頻率、實際支出等這個事件來去看說有沒有刑事上的不法那我要跟委員報告就是說刑事我們任何的一個事件裡面它可能會有刑事不法它也可能會有行政不法又或者是說這樣的觀感不好的問題它是有一個層次性的部分"},{"start":466.569,"end":492.961,"text":"那這件事是屬於什麼?針對於我們的部分我們檢察官是在評斷說我們這個案件到底中有沒有在刑事不法上來做一個判斷那請問一下市長就是說這兩案啦在人民的這個眼中其實就是明顯的這個輕重失衡一邊是32元的舊電鍋而且是要住石荒老的這個婦人一個是就是濫用公務車這樣子卻以牽結收藏那請問這兩案"},{"start":495.842,"end":520.719,"text":"法務部全部承認其實就是有明顯的這個輕重權衡其實因為每個案件它的狀況真的是不同我們就是委員提到的這個電鍋32元的這一個案子其實當時在台北市裡面他們的一個制度上就是說他們有一個就是洗物網就是你東西如果進去的話它事實上它是整個公用上那我們的這個清潔隊員他也知道這樣的一個狀況"},{"start":521.659,"end":541.318,"text":"所以事實上依照貪污罪條例的一個規定現在我們的法院也是判定是有罪的只是我們社會上會覺得說那侵佔這麼一個產值只有32塊這樣只要用那麼重的條文來去判斷它是不是合適我們也同意說在這個秦清法重的這個部分上要去做調整"},{"start":542.099,"end":562.152,"text":"但是不是代表說今天說這樣的一個犯罪這樣的一個行為它還是屬於犯罪嘛那所以這樣的一個行為我們在法令還沒有修之前我們還是要依法來判斷只是說跟委員報告您剛剛提到的那個很重要的部分說我們怎麼調整的話我們會針對說我們現在大概社會大界的委員也在講說這個"},{"start":563.112,"end":573.248,"text":"五萬塊以下那我們有就是說增加了這個免除期刑的一個規定就是說萬一真的法院認定在具體個案上看到說真的有那麼可憐所以法務部也是贊成這樣子一個說法的一個方向我們會我們會朝這個方向對我想要不然的話大家"},{"start":578.416,"end":604.107,"text":"都覺得每次都說尊重個案可是事實上民眾的反應是非常非常的沒辦法接受我覺得這是一個最基本的一個是非判斷的原則那也希望說針對這個部分我們要盡速的來修法不要再讓這樣子的一個讓大家覺得是非就看到基層呢就這個法就很重那看到高官呢就法輕希望不要再有這樣的現象發生不會這樣好 謝謝好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168448","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168448","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5655ee4938da65e1fb2832c8629d7250306a382356a5b219291cfc8066c9e4d98ce2492c85169a165ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","委員發言時間":"09:59:09 - 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首先要非常感謝我們文委員對於我們這個貪污之罪條例的這樣的一個就是看到了這個法重情輕的這一個部分那事實上前一陣子社會各界裡面像電鍋案還有一些案件都有一些這樣的一個聲音出來那本部也非常的重視因為事實上就如同委員所講的就是說五萬元以下然後有時候這樣子在一些"},{"start":167.612,"end":195.321,"text":"情节这个就是说很轻微的一个状况之中是不是都用贪污条例一律适用这个部分确实造成了大家一些的讨论那法务部这边也很重视那目前我们提出的相关的这样的一个也说免除期刑的部分跟委员的版本这也是相同的那我们这部分在本席是要请问就是为什么你们这么久都没有送到立法院法案出了行政院的原因是什么"},{"start":195.421,"end":212.135,"text":"我們現在目前的案子還是在行政院這邊你們經過審查了嗎已經審查完畢了嘛 對不對已經審查三次了審查三次都還沒有定論都還沒有定論是行政院不支持還是哪一個單位不支持我們會盡速來處理這事情"},{"start":212.816,"end":236.766,"text":"是你們現在處理的腳步真的是非常非常緩慢那麼其實這個本席已經也觀察到很多的這個相關的修法的草案還有辦法那都押在行政院那我不知道說這個行政院為什麼不尊重你們法務部的意見更何況我覺得這個案子是有社會共識草野也有個別委員都有提出來"},{"start":237.646,"end":256.876,"text":"這個沒有什麼太爭議的案子應該行政院就要儘速送出來那常常都是因為行政院沒有對案法務部沒有對案送到立法院然後呢我們大家在討論的時候當時看起來沒什麼問題結果等到三讀通過之後馬上又有外界可能有"},{"start":258.597,"end":285.513,"text":"人會攻擊說這都是某某委員的提案那其實法務本身有提案啊所以本席希望說法務部應該要盡速的去催一催行政院很多重要的法案不要壓在行政院那包含接下來我們要討論的這個刑法八十條的修正案也是一樣的其實你們行政院在二零二六年一月二十九號就已經通過刑法第八十條的修正草案了嘛"},{"start":286.053,"end":304.002,"text":"但是這個案子也沒有送到立法院來有嗎跟委員報告現在2月9號的時候會嫌司法院那所以現在問題是卡在司法院嗎可以請司法院廳長說明一下嗎這案子現在是卡在司法院嗎"},{"start":306.144,"end":322.114,"text":"是 報告委員那個行政院他在2月9號發文司法院在2月10號收到他彙嫌的函文那我們經過36個工作天已經在4月10號統一彙嫌並函附行政院所以這個部分本院已經統一彙嫌"},{"start":323.24,"end":347.713,"text":"那這36個工作天針對這個追逐權失效它所涉及的重要性以及相關爭議來講我認為是合理的時間比如說我們好了解了所以謝謝司法院已經在4月10號就回覆了因為這個基本上根據本席了解大法官其實現在也在受理相關的案子那麼如果說我們能夠加快腳步把這個所謂的比較不合理的條文修正的話那我想其實也就不勞"},{"start":348.633,"end":374.159,"text":"這些五人大法官要再去做出所謂的違憲的判決那麼這個部分的話希望行政院能夠盡速將刑法八十條的修正案提到立法院來因為我們今天只是第一次開始進行詢答等到之後進行審查的時候本席希望就已經能夠看到法務部的版本可以嗎 請問次長"},{"start":377.598,"end":396.023,"text":"會跟行政院這邊去報告這件事情一定要嚴正的反映這件事情那針對這個議題本身還有一個問題想請教就是因為我們知道其實證據的重要性但是在性侵案件裡面尤其是未成年的性侵案要求被害人陳述必須要有補強證據這時候可能會很困難尤其是我們現在等於說追訴權從"},{"start":401.845,"end":422.458,"text":"18歲以後才開始這個計算的話那麼事實上如果案件是發生在20年前常常這種監視器或是生物的樣本都已經消失了所以在這裡是不是有可能可以參考國外的經驗針對延遲揭露的案件延遲揭露的性侵案件可以調降補強證據的門檻"},{"start":425.936,"end":439.109,"text":"跟委員報告就是說補強證據的部分各體檢署的檢察官在偵辦的時候他會依照這個實際的一個情況來做一個判斷就在這一個部分上是不是要多強的補強他們在個案中會做一個審慎的一個判斷"},{"start":439.966,"end":461.455,"text":"是 那本席是希望說能夠借助就是參考國外的經驗然後另外一個就是可以調降補強證據的門檻還可以透過專業的司法心理鑑定來作為法庭上面有效的補強證據那這部分的話不曉得刑事庭庭長這裡是不是可以接受類似像這樣的一個國外的做法"},{"start":462.686,"end":481.551,"text":"是關於這個證據法則的部分呢這個尤其是關於性侵害被害人他所做的陳述不得作為唯一證據那確實有補強法則的適用那關於這個補強法則他同時也是實務上在適用上他常常會有一些寬延不等的這種認定那關於性侵害補強法則其實"},{"start":482.771,"end":508.938,"text":"我們很願意參考所有國外的見解以及大法官關於這個補強法則所揭示的適用那以及他對於被告所造成的影響來做綜合通盤的考量那這部分其實最高法院在補強法則的適用上也有相關的見解我相信他可以均衡的去保障這個被害人的訴訟權以及被告的訴訟權OK很好那我本是希望說這個刑法八十條如果順利通過的話相關的配套措施要請法務部還有"},{"start":512.28,"end":536.943,"text":"這個司法院法院這邊都能夠從被害人的角度出發然後給予更多的在證據上面的有利的一個判斷好那最後一個問題我想請教就是說是一個結構性的問題就是有關於檢察官的上訴權其實這個可能也是我們接下來立法院所要推動的這個有關於羈押抗告是不是要限定次數或者是說應該就直接由法院自為"},{"start":537.763,"end":553.244,"text":"裁定的這樣的一個修法的規定那麼我想請教次長你是不是支持限制檢察官的上訴權包括羈押裁定的抗告還是只是憲據就是程序違法才能夠上訴"},{"start":554.224,"end":574.965,"text":"跟委員報告跟委員報告其實我們的這個上訴的制度它是整套的那我們實務上也常常會發現說這個不乏說有時候一審他是判無罪二審有罪然後這樣有時候這個層級上雖然多但他最終會發現到真實所以我們在這個檢察官的甚至上訴權"},{"start":575.966,"end":602.874,"text":"這個部分也可能會這個產生就失去監督這個法院的一個裁判功能這個部分上就是說它有通盤性的一個考量所以上訴權這個我認為還是有必要所以你們到現在還是認為是有必要不過我想這個議題因為也引起社會的關注就是檢察官是不是有這個押人取供的情況而且同時呢不斷的這個針對羈押的裁定抗告"},{"start":605.332,"end":619.438,"text":"行使抗告這個其實相當程度也是對於被羈押人他的權益可能會造成一定的侵害一定的影響所以因為已經有不少委員有提案"},{"start":620,"end":644.115,"text":"那麼看是之後針對欺壓抗告的次數做一定的限制或者是說是由上級法院自行來決定那這個議題我覺得是接下來我們會要持續關注的而且重點關注的議題那也希望法務部能夠儘速的要針對這個議題提出你們的看法然後甚至修正版本好不好好 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有請主席長跟我們經濟部我們的次長賴次長主席長我想CPI的穩定非常重要但是CPI的穩定現階段幾乎都是政府方的責任去對抗市場方政府可以做的部分就是油跟電還有一些稅收的減免"},{"start":32.964,"end":49.972,"text":"可是這個部分我們看到目前中油的這個部分剛剛報告說已經有90億最高大概107億讓整個CPI只有上升到1.8%吸收掉0.3我有一個問題要問的是說那油的部分那電的部分限制"},{"start":50.592,"end":69.256,"text":"那個限動的部分4到9個月次長也在這邊你也可以問他再加上其他的這個稅收的減免整個優惠的這個部分穩定物價的措施延長到9個月的情況底下到底政府要付出多少錢才能減免多少CPI主席長你有沒有掌握"},{"start":71.725,"end":79.337,"text":"這個部分主要其實是經濟部的一部分是經濟部一部分是那個財政部稅收的減少對 財政部減少稅收嘛黃曉玉的部分這個部還沒有預估出來我是說那個 主委長"},{"start":87.068,"end":101.966,"text":"您站在主席兩個高位嘛那個經濟部也好財政部也好任何部門的一個那個行政措施減少了一些國家的一個income然後或者呢增加了國家的負擔總共多少才能去面對這個CPI本席想要知道這個數字啊"},{"start":103.227,"end":123.588,"text":"我們現在是講譬如說他中油他提出要增資那是事後那是拯救中油的部分增資融資6500億要如何救中油我都同意我也都贊成也應該包括台電都應要但是我們要去面對我們到底多少才會有效啊"},{"start":124.889,"end":151.459,"text":"在總量上啦沒關係 主席長妳會後再給本席妳算個數字給我對 經濟部還有財政部的部分還有財政部的部分因為關鍵是CPI就是整體的部會當中我們到底付了多少承擔了多少最後減少了多少因為我找不到這個相關數字嘛這樣也可以讓我們的百姓知道說政府到底付出了多少努力嘛不是嗎 主席長"},{"start":152.799,"end":180.584,"text":"他如果每個月的話油價的部分是九十億嘛對對對剛剛有講九十億我有聽到十二個月那就是九十億要這樣子的一個成熟對那我要知道你一個月的周期大概多少兩個月如果是這樣子但是有可能再疊加這樣子所以我們會再算一個那個就請那個次長麻煩跟主席長對一下好不好我大概要知道這個總額啦那政府有多少作為好不好那各位請回接下來我想請那個法務部法務部"},{"start":185.925,"end":186.307,"text":"請張師長有請那個這是張師長嗎"},{"start":197.925,"end":217.072,"text":"因為不論是之前的衛生紙之亂、雞蛋之亂、塑膠袋之亂政府部門大概透過兩個平台一個是法務部的物價聯合稽查小組另外就是我們地檢署設立一個打擊民生的犯罪聯繫平台用雙軌並行的方式去處理"},{"start":218.292,"end":237.082,"text":"那現階段 不論是衛生紙 雞蛋 或者塑膠之亂目前我看到的都是查無不法啦簡單的講是沒有囤積 沒有烘台但是沒有人相信因為在第一線當中呢大家拿到的塑膠袋都已經變五塊錢了到底是誰在烘台價格"},{"start":238.527,"end":248.578,"text":"很奇怪你們每一個查出來都是沒有囤積沒有烘台但是結果就是沒有人相信因為現實上很多民眾就說你看塑膠袋五塊"},{"start":249.656,"end":274.564,"text":"那個整個這個便當盒也五塊為什麼這種落差你們就去了解我去了解一下就置對面的部分囤積民生物資烘台物價行者主要根據刑法第251條可以處三年以下有期徒刑可是呢從109年2010年修法以來我沒有看到任何一件案件涉及到251條"},{"start":277.898,"end":298.195,"text":"251條當中呢 也就是說呢一 糧食農產品及民生必需之飲食用品或者是三 行政院公告之生活必需品你認為這三項是都不符合嗎還是出在哪裡或者是第一線的攤商的問題還是只是消費者的問題 你要講清楚嘛"},{"start":299.813,"end":309.243,"text":"跟委員報告喔有關那個刑法251條的那個案件數齁在去年114年度我們新收是有246件 增結234件那其中起訴的有47件幾件47件47件 對起訴之後呢"},{"start":317.452,"end":335.183,"text":"那起訴之後當然就是送法院去判決那有沒有判決那判決的情形我目前這邊手上是沒有資料如果委員有需要的話我們可以會合麻煩一下好不好起訴之後47件到底判決的結果怎麼樣這樣才能達到嚇阻的作用嘛是感受上司說好像都沒有都沒有都沒有"},{"start":335.843,"end":353.244,"text":"那結果呢大家感受都是有有有民間跟這個落差實在太大了麻煩你會後給本席一下那也請貴單位加強茶器讓民眾的感受能夠跟政府方相同謝謝接下來我想請那個央行的這個副總裁央行副總裁"},{"start":364.111,"end":384.15,"text":"因為最近外匯現在有一個新的狀況過往我們都希望外資如果賣了股之後如果不再買進的話要趕快匯出以前央行的態度這樣子就是避免這個炒匯可是最近徵取局有對外講說因為外資賣超不一定要急著匯進出"},{"start":385.751,"end":403.83,"text":"如果說呢這個匯進出的話台幣呢會有這個貶值的壓力那台幣一旦貶值的壓力的話就會有導入這個輸入性的通膨的這個可能那這裡頭出現第一個問題你要如何避免這個輸入性的通膨的可能"},{"start":404.491,"end":420.138,"text":"第二個呢可是我們現在外資持有台灣的股票債券跟現金目前已經高達1.2兆的美元又是我們外匯存底的兩倍以上你太多的外資放在台灣又有可能有炒匯的風險"},{"start":421.579,"end":437.869,"text":"或者一下子快速的匯出也會造成台幣的急速貶值在這種兩難的情況底下我很想問一下央行要怎麼面對譬如講還有一個問題儘管會在外資的這個部分談到外資大賣台股8306億可是到央行就變9682億差了1000多"},{"start":446.835,"end":472.596,"text":"另外金管會統計外資的匯出是30.5億可是央行的統計是240億差更多這種數字上的落差也會影響到你們判斷的一個結果副總裁你們回復一下本席你要怎麼去控制這個輸出性的通膨增加或者你要如何同時因應這個可能會造成炒匯的風險"},{"start":475.273,"end":494.635,"text":"我們會首先看一下就是到底那個以美元計價的進口物價的上漲情形我們會判斷就是說到底他是不是持續長期的但是中央銀行的匯率政策我剛才講到除了外資之外我們也受到外資也當然也受到"},{"start":495.716,"end":524.066,"text":"國際美元走勢外資他們判斷說到底未來的台幣的走勢是怎樣所以我們的基本政策是維持新台幣的相對穩定您剛才提到那個金管會和央行在外資匯出的統計上面是有差異的因為我們是用現金基礎那金管會是用權責基礎最大的差異就是我們外資在台灣賺到的盈餘我們我們視為他匯出我們視為他定義上不同啦所有數字上的差異啦好"},{"start":525.166,"end":547.249,"text":"那這個可能會有判斷上的落差不會 因為對央行來講我們看的是現金技術好 就是央行來做主導如果央行來做主導的話那本席就要請教於你了第一個現階段是不是有沒有說希望外資不要像以前短期的情侶賣掉股票以後趕快發出去而可以允許他們比較長的時間我先問你這一點好了"},{"start":547.749,"end":565.758,"text":"報告委員這個是有他的困難度因為外資的資金的流動在台灣是一個自由的我們只是限制他你賣完的錢你如果留在台灣你就必須投資在國內股市上面但是就是停留的時間也不管就沒有像以前說叫他趕快出去"},{"start":566.398,"end":581.524,"text":"我們沒辦法單向單向一下子要他暫緩出去一下子要他暫緩進來暫緩進來你是用單向讓他不要太近匯入我們沒辦法用單向的方式因為"},{"start":582.324,"end":587.208,"text":"那個資金的流動是一個相對自由的匯出跟匯入的問題嘛你要匯出太多的話它就會貶值嘛對不對我們有道德說服國內的廠商可以這樣配合輸入性CPI的可能性嘛那你不管輸入性的CPI嗎你不是在可控的範圍嗎這不是變成一個關鍵嗎"},{"start":603.561,"end":617.235,"text":"因為在外匯市場上面我們沒辦法用單獨的去限制外資的我沒有說用單獨的方式我是說這政策有沒有調整啊我想唯一的方式可能就是透過我們匯率的調整去誘導這樣子的一個"},{"start":619.097,"end":643.136,"text":"說到匯率的調整 本席就最後再問你一句匯率的調整的部分我一直發現央行在這個部分是在一個區間來去看待區間的部分就是30 31 32它其實是要如何維持出口的競爭力有時候主要輸出國家進口國的一個競爭力之外另外一個討論的部分是現階段需要避免輸入性的同盤應該是這兩個部分在做平衡"},{"start":643.917,"end":660.919,"text":"才會決定這個區間嘛出口競爭力一向不是我們關切的最主要的重點是那我們看的是整體對物價的影響是怎樣所以是第二項對關鍵還是第二項所以最近進場調節是在於要控制輸入性的同盤而不是在於出口的競爭優勢是好 謝謝副總長 謝謝好 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行程的時候我們很多的農民朋友跟市民朋友也跟我講說那些都騙人的啦"},{"start":156.067,"end":179.643,"text":"因為過去也有曾經開放過這樣的一個例子結果到最後空頭支票一張 把他撇一頂所以我覺得我們應該要審慎評估這樣的一個方案那陳儒剛剛主委講的 這個是一個高度政治的一個風險的一個工程那未來可不可行 我想工程會是不是有能夠做這樣一個專業的一個建議 有沒有這個思考"},{"start":181.24,"end":207.377,"text":"工程會是主管我們國內的公共工程這個外國的公共工程大概管不到管不到啦主委管不到但是你認為這個不過我可以舉一個例子啦就是金門的水它也是在福建、廈門那邊也不能來但我實際去看了之後那個水還是原水啦就是還沒有經過處理"},{"start":209.258,"end":231.843,"text":"所以金門的水基本上還是透過海水淡化或者是相關的這個水利設施那麼比較大部分啦那尤其是中國目前的政府制度之下呢那一切都是為政治啦不管是農業啦不管交流都一切都是以政治為目的嘛"},{"start":232.603,"end":258.901,"text":"主委比較客氣啦 我認為是統政為目的啦 這個不一樣好 主委 那撇開這個問題啦我想還是要麻煩主委來關心一下屏東的重大建設主委 我想我們的高屏二塊跟高鐵南沿這兩個案子也感謝主委的大力幫忙那過去 包含從交通部也好 國安會也好我想主委也都用這樣子的一個協調的一個角色能夠加快施程 主委"},{"start":259.201,"end":277.287,"text":"那高屏二塊目前原本預計今年要動工那因為卡在總預算的關係那目前工程會有沒有安排要擇期限刊審查或是有沒有相關的一個進入請主委說明一下他其中有一個優先要做的路段 西萬標 是不是"},{"start":277.947,"end":286.329,"text":"有一個是最近才把基本設計送到工程會我們會先建立審查委員還有做初審我們會儘速而且優先的來完成基本設計的審查"},{"start":298.53,"end":316.885,"text":"主委這個我還是要再提醒你一件事情因為我記得我們行政院主委院長有到屏東來視察這個工程的時候原本是預定今年的6月就要動工了那後來因為相關的一個審查的一個機制所以延到9月這個目標有沒有改變時間會不會影響"},{"start":319.008,"end":340.209,"text":"我們儘速來審查啦因為才剛送來而已那我們審查之後希望能夠讓這個施工能夠今年能是不是能夠上能夠進行招標作業啦注意這個拜託你啦我們加快期程好那另外針對高鐵的部分南沿屏東部分主委有沒有最新的一個進度"},{"start":342.769,"end":363.066,"text":"目前高鐵延伸屏東的部分在進行環評當中那這個環評的這個報告持續都會在追蹤那麼也會召會來了解我們希望能夠整個競速來推動高鐵延伸屏東的這件事情"},{"start":364.176,"end":378.999,"text":"我想這個也是我們過去一直以來我們大家一起來努力的一個目標那尤其謝謝諸位運營專業來協調扮演這個協調的一個角色所以這高鐵南岩宜蘭跟屏東一樣重要一起來推動"},{"start":381.29,"end":399.841,"text":"那另外我想針對一個這個目前我們這個公共工程還有我們工程專業人力缺工的問題我想這也是主委很在意的一個事情那我有最近有看到主委到花東地區為了這個土木工程學分班來揭牌那這也是工程會第一個辦的一個學分班"},{"start":400.621,"end":417.974,"text":"每個學分一千塊這個是市價的四分之一那取得學分之後並符合國考資格會再退一半的費用我想諸位的用心就是要解決我們目前土木專業人力的一個缺口那尤其我知道像我們現在很多高普考考試"},{"start":419.635,"end":445.461,"text":"這個開放名額之後就有報導 報導率很低啊尤其有的年輕人 像我們怡德那個副主委一樣 我們以前在縣政府的時候不得不三個月 會有民間後遺因為公務部門的工作繁重 民意代表壓力很大到民間薪水比較高 壓力沒那麼大主委 那有沒有可能在我們南部高民地區也來開這樣的一個分班 解決我們人的缺口因為土木"},{"start":446.621,"end":461.484,"text":"工程院很缺乏啦 而且高考 國考報到率很低那尤其是東部尤其是台東花蓮所以報到率也相對低 現在南部也很燦爛R5花東地區的大學都沒有土木系"},{"start":462.265,"end":487.644,"text":"所的設置啊所以我們才想到說會解決尤其是台東跟花蓮所以剛好在花蓮謝謝那個國營台灣鐵路公司借了一個場地在花蓮車站火車站這裡那跟宜蘭大學合作由宜蘭大學跟工程會來合辦這個學分班除了土木專利之外還有加上我們工程會也有一些採購啦或者是相關的"},{"start":489.005,"end":495.135,"text":"學相關的這個課程也在那裡那麼獲得很大的迴響那麼136個左右來報名那當然相關其他偏遠地區工程會也會持續來考量"},{"start":504.56,"end":531.981,"text":"主委那個南部部分再拜託這個優先來處理因為我們現在南部尤其我們郡縣委員我們台南以南現在很多重大工程你現在沒有專業人才工程是要做下去的金額不知道要多少對但是這個我們都有透過預算因為現在今年也沒有預算所以以後如果能夠編列的話我們當然樂意到偏遠地區來設置這樣的所以主委不好意思講總預算還是要趕快過才有錢可以用"},{"start":533.097,"end":550.247,"text":"好 那謝謝主席 我再最後一分鐘針對我想這個濾青的一個問題 我還是要拜託主委來幫忙那尤其目前我們有很多的這個道路的鋪設跟修補在進行但受到美伊戰爭的影響 濾青的價格嚴重飆漲從這個今年3月份 每公噸從16,200漲到25,000塊漲幅高達六成"},{"start":559.272,"end":576.413,"text":"那每公噸的濾清混凝土從2100套到2300那像台南高雄屏東都面臨這樣一個缺濾清的一個問題甚至有傳出濾清的存量不足主委這個有沒有人為的一個因素或者是你們有調查什麼原因嗎"},{"start":577.267,"end":593.839,"text":"因為做柏油的原油來源大概來自中東啦因為它是一種含環碗氫比較多的這個原油啦那因為中東戰爭嘛所以進來量就比較少所以能夠做柏油的就是台灣中油跟"},{"start":595.04,"end":616.528,"text":"台塑集團的台塑化那麼他們這個原油來得少那自然生產柏油就少那柏油少做瀝青就少那麼自然而然當然這個就缺料然後漲價就工程會而言我們認為如果是這種情形之下呢相關的公用工程可以有涉及物調的我們都認為應該這個"},{"start":620.389,"end":638.44,"text":"廠商跟再建工程的機關可以合一來物調那工期也可以展演不過我了解目前這個柏油的供應已經不是問題了因為台塑化它有兩條就是這個煉油的製程一個是煉製輕油一個是煉製這個"},{"start":641.562,"end":669.633,"text":"相關柏友這個製程他已經調高這個煉製的比例了調高煉製比例另外呢銷售銷售這個柏友的這個中塑公司中塑公司是台塑化的子公司那因為他本來在國外就有一些契約廠商固定每一個月一個月大概一萬公噸那我們這個卓院長也希望國內的這個廠商以供應國內的需求"},{"start":671.211,"end":699.147,"text":"優先啦謝謝台塑化跟中塑也非常配合那麼都採取這樣的一個動作那中油呢台灣中油陸續在市場上來採購這個現貨啦那採購現貨如果有了這個柏油啦那採購現貨之後呢也可以供應國內需求根據我目前三個禮拜所掌握的資料那麼力清的供應的原料柏油啊供應已經沒有問題"},{"start":700.35,"end":710.339,"text":"好這個這個案子也要麻煩我們主委來幫忙然後應該要進行跨部會的一個協調那確保我們國內的力清純亮不要讓我們所有的這個公共工程受到影響好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168452","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168452","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5655ee4938da65e111b9a8776cd36bd7306a382356a5b219291cfc8066c9e4d9b67cecec6b19759e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"10:23:57 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謝謝主席 我們有請法務部好 有請次長"},{"start":20.52,"end":45.086,"text":"市長好那首先我想先了解一個狀況因為兩個星期前我才在這個委員會裡面去質詢過司法院的法警制度但沒想過兩個禮拜之後法務部這邊也出了狀況就是最近台北地檢署發生了一件非常離譜的事情一名同時涉及毒品案件又被新北地檢署通緝的男子被送到北檢之後呢竟然因為"},{"start":45.946,"end":75.369,"text":"疑似因為這個罰警的交接沒有交接清楚直接在地檢署裡面被放走了我想一般民眾聽到這個新聞都會覺得非常的驚不可思議啦非常的驚訝因為大家會覺得說一個被通緝的人被帶進地檢署之後怎麼可能會被放走呢所以這件事情其實暴露了幾個很關鍵的問題這也是想要跟次長來討論的就是說人犯交接的流程通緝身份的確認還有最後放行的程序到底有沒有程度這個程序上的漏洞"},{"start":76.389,"end":104.626,"text":"我們現在在這個全國的各地檢署對於法警在交接人訓人犯後訓後保解送以及最後的放行流程到底有沒有一套一致而且明確的SOP請教次長跟委員報告就是說我們法務部這邊也會再加強教育訓練因為發生這種事情我想民眾也都就覺得不樂見因為這個確實是如果是法警在交接的時候有這樣的一個狀況那我們到底有沒有一個明確的SOP"},{"start":105.086,"end":126.942,"text":"我們有我們的相關上就是說這個就是說對接這個叫通緝犯然後以及就是說在罰金管控上我們有我們的制度北建也有他的制度所以說就是說有了制度之後還是要落實所以說針對這個事情上有沒有在環節上有些狀況的部分的話我們會請北建這邊就是再來注意然後再調好因為我想這個對民眾來說齁我覺得實在是"},{"start":130.585,"end":146.4,"text":"我覺得太驚訝了所以是不是可以說回去要好好的我想你們應該也在做檢討了啦這個到底上面為什麼沒有辦法落實所以這個部分的檢討報告是不是也可以提供給我們好嗎那大概什麼時候可以提供呢你們現在預估什麼時候會提出這個檢討報告可以一個月嗎"},{"start":147.287,"end":170.874,"text":"一個月是嗎好喔好謝謝好那接下來就回到我們今天的重點就是有關於這個刑法八十條那我想今天剛剛在這個發言的時候其實我也說明了為什麼這個兒少性侵的這個推唆期限呢應該有必要來去做一些調整因為最主要是因為大多數是發生在熟人性侵特別是家人家內性侵或是師長他相信的人等等的"},{"start":171.434,"end":195.195,"text":"這都會造成兒少要出來講這件事情是非常的困難那我現在看我們的立法院跟這個法務部其實已經有一個相當的共識但是我今天想要討論的是犯罪被害人的補償機制就是說在我們的犯保法第63條裡面其實是有一個請求時效那在這我們提出了這個請求時效過去經常被大家詬病"},{"start":196.796,"end":224.693,"text":"那現在我看到了就是說法務部提出了一個新的設計叫做障礙適由簡單來說就是說這個被害人在原本的身體期限快到之前的一年內因為可能是因為和加害人有共同生活或照顧關係或者是因為性侵造成嚴重創傷或者是受到了威脅控制那就可以在第一次向警察或檢察官說出受害經過的一年內再提出補償申請"},{"start":226.414,"end":250.675,"text":"我想我肯定這樣子的制度是有在前進我也理解法務部這樣子的設計的出發點但是因為這個兒少性侵犯和一般犯罪還是非常的不一樣因為很多孩子不是有權利而不主張而是在那個時間點還是沒有辦法說出來對不對所以我想請教就是法務部既然已經理解了孩子其實有說不出來的難處那為什麼還要做這樣子的限制呢因為他"},{"start":251.175,"end":274.828,"text":"孩子還是很難去說我因為當時被可能自己的家人性侵所以我才沒有申請他還是沒有辦法講出來啊能力上面就是做不到嘛所以我認為這樣子的設計還是太嚴苛了想請教次長這個是不是還可以做修正那第二個就是說如果我們法律只有列出這幾種障礙事由的時候未來在審查上會不會是變成另外一種高門檻"},{"start":277.237,"end":301.7,"text":"謝謝委員的這樣的一個提醒就是委員的這個對於我們這樣的這個這個性被性這個兒少的這個部分的保護其實我們跟法務部我們都是一樣那我們目前跟委員報告就是說我們的這個犯罪被害人的保障法的這個部分條文修正草案現在因為他的進度上就是公告就是說我們是就是說做那個法案的一個預告"},{"start":302.321,"end":325.25,"text":"那這個部分上都還可以有一些意見上我們這邊都還可以做一些調整好 那就是說我希望就是說在這件事情上面我想民間有許多的學者在主張說只要案件已經進入這個司法的機關調查或者檢察官已經起訴就不應該再讓被害人因為時效而被排除在這樣子的補償之外"},{"start":326.27,"end":354.569,"text":"這樣子的方向我希望就是說在我們這次預告之後收集完大家的意見之後我們可以再去做一個更細緻的調整讓我們的兒少被害人他的補償這件權利不會被消失可以嗎謝謝委員調整我們會盡速的就是收集各界的意見後報行政院做安整的審查好那再來最後一件事情就是我國的這個犯罪這個貪污治罪條例那接下來這個可能要請司法院抱歉"},{"start":361.86,"end":386.297,"text":"抱歉法務部還不能走 法務委員加請司法院兩個就是說我們長期受重刑化的一個思維影響容易把性質差異很大的案件放在同一個高刑度的框架來處理那我想如果沒有足夠的分流跟層次也可能違反比例原則讓法律失去一個精細評價的能力所以今天這個第12條的修法重點就是針對於金額已經是比較低的清潔比較輕微的個案"},{"start":387.978,"end":403.185,"text":"是不是可以有一些調整的空間而不是一律落入這個過重的刑罰那法務部其實也有提到這個12條的真定免除期刑也是在除了減刑之外有一個具體個案中可作免刑判決的一個條件"},{"start":405.706,"end":422.994,"text":"那但是呢我想今天跟大家先討論一下這個嚴格就過去在62年在8月7號修正案當時的條文是規定第4條到第6條各款之罪輕微而且所得或所圖得財物在三圈圓之下是適用有較輕處罰規定的刑法"},{"start":424.795,"end":450.67,"text":"所以在當時的立法思考其實不是在貪污治罪條例裡面調整刑度而是認為某些非常小而非常輕微的案件可以回到一般處罰比較輕的法律來處理可是可以看到在81年6月30號的修法制度又改了原本的3000被提高成5萬塊的新台幣而且法律效果也從適用較輕處罰規定之刑罰或其他法律改成"},{"start":452.111,"end":471.276,"text":"清其刑也就是說立法者當時是只針對情節輕微金額較低的案件在貪污之罪條例的架構中保留了減刑空間那所以在這個法律嚴格我們看到了兩件事情第一個就是這個金額的門檻是立法政策的選擇的結果不是一個不能討論也不能檢討的數字"},{"start":473.396,"end":482.994,"text":"那第二個既然當年可以從三千調整到五萬塊就表示立法者本身就承認了小兒案件的界限會隨著時代背景而有需要重新設定"},{"start":485.086,"end":504.762,"text":"所以我想了解就是說從過去我們可以看到法律的嚴格從當初不是五萬塊當初為什麼是五萬塊或是兩萬塊或是三萬塊其實我們看不到更明確的說明所以請教法務部啦針對這樣子多年的五萬元的標準你們有沒有重新檢討過它是否合理那原因又是什麼"},{"start":506.668,"end":534.942,"text":"那這個金額是不是那個提高這個部分會通盤的一個檢討啦那並考量個人的法律的情感去審查說這個部分是不是修正因為事實上五萬元這個部分到底是不是說夠高了那這個部分其實是一個非常不明確的非常判斷的問題那我們目前在這個部分上還是以五萬塊來做判斷所以我想這是在那我請教一下司法院好了好不好"},{"start":536.806,"end":565.039,"text":"好因為我想這一題如果說法通過之後最重要還是回到司法院這邊要做法院要做判決嘛但是大家都在談這個情節要怎麼去做評估這其實是非常的抽象那法官在實務上面要如何判斷情節輕微呢是只看金額還是要看這個被告的職位收受的利益的太陽還有對公務連結的損害是否反覆發生等等的所以我認為就是說這個在法院的實務上面"},{"start":565.839,"end":572.481,"text":"你們會不會認為這個是會有一些要說得更清楚的地方呢?"},{"start":573.484,"end":600.559,"text":"是 報告委員關於這個《貪污秩序條例》12條它的這個門檻金額到底是要多少那這個是一個高度就誠如剛剛市長所言它是一個高度價值判斷的問題那至於說依人民之社會通念如何才為最為適當這個部分尊重大院之決定那在司法實務上呢即使沒有這樣的條文其實我們也有實質違法性的理論來做一個具體的因應只不過關於實質違法性的"},{"start":601.019,"end":620.045,"text":"在怎麼樣的狀況下屬於情節行為如同委員剛剛所提到他必須綜合考量各種因素那也會涉及個別法官關於個案的這個情節以及這個審酌的這個情況不同而異那所以說如果這個本大院今天這個討論這個貪污罪條例第12條去訂出一個比較適當的一個門檻讓法院來統一適用那對於這個這個"},{"start":628.248,"end":641.819,"text":"整個法律適用的平等一致性會有比較好的效果以上報告所以我想這個是不是我們要有一個比較清楚的立法理由甚至是提供實務實用的方向才會讓我們在實務的判決上面有個比較清楚的issue呢"},{"start":643.693,"end":662.109,"text":"這個部分的立法理由它是可以補充這個相關的這個有關這個門檻那但是門檻我會建議就是說如果它是一個比較明確的門檻有利於法官來適用是比較好的選擇那至於說在具體的狀況那這個部分再由法官來做量刑的橫著"},{"start":663.339,"end":686.575,"text":"好 了解那我想最後就是再總結一下就是說我想站在我們的立場上面就是貪污其實是反貪污是不能退的一件事情是絕對要被捍衛的一件事情那根據聯合國反貪腐公約呢真正有說服力的反貪法制也不是說把所有的案件都用同樣的嚴厲的方式來處理而是讓重大的貪污要受到最嚴厲的譴責同時也讓情節顯然比較輕微的案件有一個合理的區分那這樣子的話我想這個"},{"start":692.119,"end":705.928,"text":"民眾就可以看到法律不是變鬆而是變得更穩更準更能夠服眾那也希望就是今天剛剛在說的一些細節的部分法務部也要再做審慎的處理這樣子謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168450","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168450","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5655ee4938da65e1315f1a85a5442260e63d9eaeca1783e3291cfc8066c9e4d97a26c39964b221c95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林岱樺","委員發言時間":"10:10:32 - 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這個只是因為是每個月都在變動那不是非常固定的好 本席告訴你930億所以從4月到12月那大概930億每個月平均100億台幣"},{"start":81.767,"end":101.302,"text":"因為河末之海峽封鎖那這是你的錯嗎本席不認為那既然今天次長來督導這個所有的這個人員的部分那我認為這是忠友的錯那忠友是不是這是現任董事長的錯那我也不認為是你的錯是誰的錯你們的一個副總主導全台灣天然氣的構置"},{"start":108.715,"end":130.828,"text":"董事長你應該知道我在說你哪一位副總天然氣女神業界是這麼樣瘋的他可以讓台灣現在此時此刻讓我們台灣多花了每天100億的每個月每100億台幣的天然氣成本好那我們來看這整個的始末"},{"start":133.662,"end":149.767,"text":"國際國運國管這是本期的主張台灣能源百分之九十有來自國外天然氣發電佔比已經達到百分之五十以上國際國運國管天然氣是我們自己買的我們也要自己運也要有自己的船隊來管理這是國安"},{"start":151.087,"end":156.009,"text":"生命線那這個歷次本席針對歷次的院長蘇院長陳院長到現在卓院長部長從王部長郭部長到現在的龔部長即使是國發會的龔主委的時候本席也都提出現在天然氣進口"},{"start":166.952,"end":185.838,"text":"合約跟運輸現在這個DES跟FOB這兩種模式在DES我就說它是自氣他運我們自己跟人家採購了就變成自己的天然氣了自給天然氣但是是他運由賣方礦組的船隻自己提供船隻到我方來"},{"start":186.938,"end":207.907,"text":"那FoB呢是自己的天然氣我們買了天然氣之後自己的船隻自己運我們的製器他運用他國的船隻來運的這樣採購模式佔了台灣的85%而我們自己的船隊來自己從礦產運到我們自己的國家這樣才達不到15%"},{"start":212.049,"end":230.353,"text":"那這樣的運費差多少呢其實最了解的就是中油董事長了DES如果用別的國家的船運回來跟我用自己的船運回來 長約來講將近四倍 這四倍是多少呢船租喔 每日DES的這個長約一天船租是40萬美金"},{"start":234.674,"end":240.838,"text":"我的FOB自己的船一天的船租是10萬主計長你要聽清楚你知道看國家損失了多少錢一趟的天然氣要28天我運一趟來28天你看我們現在都是DES的長約佔85%我們的採購"},{"start":254.648,"end":281.784,"text":"四十萬美金一趟一天我們二十八天算三十天好了一千兩百萬美金我們一年有幾百趟幾百趟的那個船次四百大概四百三十幾四百三十二趟次如果我沒有記錯大概四百趟次沒有那麼多好那多少趟次沒關係您說我們天然氣一年要幾趟次大約三百多"},{"start":284.95,"end":309.369,"text":"差不多340到350我們就340是吧 主計長您聽好一天的船隻40萬一趟我們要運一次回來28天40萬乘以28然後呢一年有340趟的船隻你知道我們85%的把船隻船隊是別的國家指望我們花了多少錢"},{"start":310.35,"end":328.562,"text":"然後我們的FOB自己的船隊四艘它的運量不到15%一天是10萬美元這就是我說中油的一個副總他主導全台灣的一個天然氣本期在什麼時候提出這個訴求呢這也是 來 我們下一頁"},{"start":333.564,"end":333.764,"text":"在2022、2023、2024、2025在2022的時候"},{"start":341.991,"end":350.853,"text":"二零二二十一月的時候我要求國企國運好 隔年的二月的時候台電中油各自回答台電說啊我們二零二五的時候我們台電也可以自己來買天然氣不需要像現在全部都有中油來跟中油架構它漲了我也必須全額吸收那中油呢就回答說啊不行啊我一定我不能改為長約我不能改為短約這個FOB喔的長約喔我要到二零三二年的時候我的船"},{"start":371.178,"end":373.839,"text":"DS的長約才改為FOP的長約2032年好 那到了這個隔一個月本席就要求國企 國運 國管我要自己的船隊啊因為現在海峽兩岸都在扣在軍演啊"},{"start":386.585,"end":393.794,"text":"好那軍演之後誰的船只有自己國籍的國家船我派了護艦隊我的船長會親密我們國人我們國家政府的政策他願意在我們國家的艦隊護航之下把天然氣運回來因為我們的發電百分之五十以上是靠天然氣"},{"start":405.709,"end":408.991,"text":"好所以呢我在這邊要求說DS的短單能夠提出來你的長單我不動你佔了70%的長單我就不動了你現在30%的短單跟現貨單"},{"start":421.296,"end":443.429,"text":"我們提出百分之十改為FOB的長單就是我們自己的船隊來運這樣分散風險向美澳採購培養自己的國籍船隊配合國家的政策以防止政治風險在2023年3月的時候提出2024本席再執行2025的時候呢經濟部你終於回覆交通部了好我們願意國企國運國管建立自己的船隊那有沒有作為 沒有"},{"start":444.589,"end":452.614,"text":"那很不幸的就在今年隔年的時候呢中東戰爭爆發河末之海峽封鎖天然氣全球搶單現貨坐地起價這邊我要講明搶單也就不是長約也不是短約而是現貨"},{"start":462.139,"end":476.407,"text":"主計長啊你知道現在的坐地起價我還用所知經濟部不敢回我我不需要商業機密你不要告訴我說你一趟多少不需要但是我想知道的到底你現在現貨搶單什麼叫搶單 化假啦"},{"start":480.169,"end":482.73,"text":"我現在是礦組啦你A國家、B國家、C國家你要來買我現在大家都在搶啊沒有長擋短擋了啦你搶其實要搶會對你真不錯啦但是你知道那個是天價我要的是你現在的搶貨的天的價格"},{"start":499.475,"end":519.235,"text":"跟你用正常FOB我們自己提供長約所的那個長單的價格我要的是這樣的一個比例你們沒有辦法給出來這個等一下我會要求我需要比例就好你就知道國人因為在2022年的時候本席提出國企國運甚至國管"},{"start":520.456,"end":546.353,"text":"你們漠視 其實2022、2023的在戰爭沒有時候陳平時期澳洲、美國都是願意賣的那也願意去談的啊你們不願意 好所以呢我們說國家主權獨立你們就只有在這個政治圖像當中去講主權獨立啊對我林戴華來講我怎麼主權獨立我要讓我國人的人員自主這也要獨立他的民生安全遇到任何的狀況他都能夠主權獨立啊"},{"start":548.875,"end":554.539,"text":"你們有沒有落實 沒有所以台電現在荷末之海峽這個封鎖之後你每個月幾乎增加一百億天然氣天然的這個燃料成本中油配合這個政策動漲民生跟工業企價但不好意思你台電全部就轉嫁給台電你全額漲足所以台電你真的是齁人家在放火燒燒你們家的房子啦你的房子你要自己付錢這樣啦現在中油和台電就是這樣啦好那這個呢在"},{"start":578.456,"end":594.668,"text":"拿國家的人員安全當賭注所以市長經濟我們現在每天台灣一天至少要一艘天然氣靠船港才能維持運作我一天就一定要一艘喔那這次你賭贏了嗎你賭了4月5月說好我們現在船期都已經OK了都穩固了6月"},{"start":601.053,"end":622.605,"text":"你說你們八成掌握在你們手中那你還要賭七月八月九月到年底你要賭什麼所以你們經濟部跟中油賭一定搶得到錢根本無計全球搶當的現況你經濟部跟中油賭所有的不穩定因素都不會爆發根本無視我地緣政治的風險你經濟部跟中油你賭船隻一定會準時靠港無視海運節點的阻礙"},{"start":627.438,"end":645.314,"text":"好這種地緣政治引發能源危機全球能源的焦慮這是赤裸裸的警訊什麼叫做處理這個危機就最高的境界就是不讓危機發生所以我當然對於台灣我不希望他有海域被封鎖但"},{"start":645.834,"end":648.577,"text":"我不讓這個危機發生的時候我怎麼來預防海域被封鎖的如果有這個狀況我們自己的船隊在哪裡目前就那四艘台達輪我們的能源自主權在哪裡現在叫做國際搶單"},{"start":660.948,"end":663.53,"text":"當中國真的封鎖台灣海域的時候你拿什麼去賭台灣2300萬人民的人員自主在哪裡你還要靠這場的賭博弈的邏輯來維持台灣的民生必須跟人員安全嗎好這我再講一下這種叫官僚惰性人員安全的雙面人"},{"start":680.6,"end":685.462,"text":"在承平時期的時候 經濟部終由你說要等到2032年才有機會重新招商改為FOB的模式但現在危機爆發的這個現況政府用緊急的採購方式搶得天價的現貨這證明了什麼 證明本席過往的主張不是不能做 而是你行政單元不願意做你平時不規劃 到了危機發生的時候到處搶單"},{"start":707.791,"end":708.372,"text":"提高了採購的成本這種採購的成本是幾百億幾百億美金啊"},{"start":715.419,"end":733.454,"text":"是跟讓台灣的人員暴露在極高的風險之下主席再兩頁就好地域政治引發人員危機現況是集中跟脆弱我單一依賴中東的企園在卡達百分百的依賴外籍船隻的調度我國慶國運國管的這是本席的這個訴求分散採購風險轉為跟澳洲美國採購強制運人的轉換立即提出10%的採購量改為FOP的長單國防防護網"},{"start":745.063,"end":749.167,"text":"培養國籍船長跟建立國籍船隊好那本席這邊的提出10%提出來你們現在現貨我回到剛才的那一頁我有比較高嗎我們還是日本韓國你看我們的長約謝謝 謝謝主席我們看長約這張表"},{"start":763.439,"end":764.861,"text":"長約跟短約我長約不動你說2032年改為FOP長約沒問題你的短約看右邊你的DES置氣他運跟現貨搶當現在佔80%我只要你這30%的短約其中10%改為長約"},{"start":779.743,"end":794.697,"text":"這樣長約的百分之十再加上你原有的FoB的自棄自運的百分之十五不過二十五的長約自己的船對自己來運日本韓國要求他們自己國家的自己自棄自運達到比例多少百分之三十"},{"start":795.669,"end":800.873,"text":"日本 韓國是這樣我這樣要求只不過從你的15%提高到25%而已好 我們看最後一頁我的主張就是經濟部要回答經濟部要主導落實國企 國運 國管的人才培育跟船隊你要協調相關的部會 交通部 教育部跟中油拒絕再用2032年延旦為藉口國安不能靠賭運氣拒絕 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但我們也大概經過了三次並沒有一個懈怠我知道三次有什麼樣的爭點為什麼會三次"},{"start":94.547,"end":115.92,"text":"針對於說貪污自罪條例上面來講就是說我們的一個部分已經漸漸的就是限縮到大家都能夠接受啦那所以這個部分上我們會盡速處理好這個這樣子啦齁因為你也沒有辦法也一直沒有回答說這三次到底有什麼樣的爭議啦那我個人我的理解齁就是其實你們的法案你們公告的法案其實並不是只單修12條你們是連11條一起修正對不對"},{"start":119.662,"end":139.132,"text":"所以你們的這個條文齁其實我看大部分的委員都是跟你跟你們這個法務部公告的條文是一樣的但是有一個地方很不一樣就是你們這裡你們的條文這個第二項你們第十二條修正第二項你們說犯前條第一項至第五項之罪但是事實上前條目前只有四項"},{"start":140.953,"end":163.513,"text":"跟委員報告我們當就是說剛剛講說我們的修正第四條到第六條之最我們還有一個徵定行會國際組織的官方我要講就是這個啦你們提出來的其實是兩條啦11條跟12條配套一起修那現在所有的委員提出來都是針對12條而已嗎那12條"},{"start":166.295,"end":184.723,"text":"他是12條所以他是前條的4項的條文但是你們因為有11條修正所以你們前條變成5項條文嘛一個是這個跟國際法跟這個國際公約來這個接軌嘛那另外一個是針對法人的這個罰金法的部分"},{"start":185.843,"end":213.337,"text":"這是增加了這兩個對不對我們還有那個布板裡面有第十一條跟六十一條所以說會比較就是討論的東西會比較多但是你們因為這個相關的討論而卡到這個第十二條事實上是會有高度共識的案子所以這個變成我們今天委員會先安排這個看起來今天可能要通過了那如果今天就要出委員會了那今天如果出委員會你們的條文未來十一條修正之後不是十二條還要再修一次"},{"start":216.404,"end":237.761,"text":"這個部分我們現在的問題你們敢敢看啦你們跟行政院這邊來反映說這個是不是你要怎麼樣因應這個問題你如果有這樣的空窗期就是我們今天修法過了前四條那你們未來還要再修第十一條你們十一條我們可能通過了還沒刪讀你們十一條條文出來了"},{"start":239.98,"end":262.468,"text":"所以我們還是希望說能夠給我們一點時間就我們針對這個東西這個等一下我們再大力討論的時候看委員會大家怎麼橫著因為已經等你們這麼久了這個是第一個第二個有關刑法八十條的部分刑法八十條這個其實這個我看大家也都有高度共識那在這個"},{"start":264.244,"end":269.086,"text":"事實上我113年我今天有秀出一個113年我們本委員會的會議紀錄這個那時候113年5月的時候質詢就我在這邊質詢那個時候也是針對這一條你們這個時候法務部的意見是說你們經過這個三次的這個行修會議"},{"start":285.433,"end":300.934,"text":"你們認為我們的刑法我們這個有關性侵害的法定刑已經比其他國家來得重了而且我們的時效也比其他國家來得長了所以那時候三次刑修會議是傾向於不修法不過這是那個時候啦"},{"start":301.835,"end":314.485,"text":"但是你們在113年的5月27號114年8月你們提出預告版本你們事實上也是修了跟大家一樣不過我想今天既然可能會進入逐條可能會討論這一條這個目前大概"},{"start":317.403,"end":343.314,"text":"有總共你們那時候我那時候質詢的時候其實只有兩個委員的版本那現在因為你們公告了出來之後就代出了29個委員的版本了大家都參考你的版本就趕快提案了提了29個版本那這29個版本呢這個其中有的這個變成有的人修80條有的人修修這個這個有人修80條有人修80"},{"start":349.369,"end":373.041,"text":"83條有人修83條有人修80條甚至還有加80條之一的啦這個大家的意思可能意思都一樣但是修的法條不一樣修的法條不一樣不是說只是法律放在不同條文而已它在法律結構意義上是不一樣的我們現在目前法務部的版本是修80條修80條的意思就是說"},{"start":376.67,"end":397.4,"text":"我們這個追溯時效它的起算時間去改變追溯時效的起算時間對不對但是追溯時效的這個起算期間按照這個一樣是在80條裡面它規定就是前向期間自犯罪成立之時起算"},{"start":398.781,"end":410.196,"text":"從犯罪之時 時間起算時效 這個是基本時效的基本原理如果是繼續犯的話 到行為終了是起算對 繼續犯到行為終了這個是基本原理你們去改變了這個起算點"},{"start":412.865,"end":439.74,"text":"一般這個像民間就有一些團體他們就認為還有也有委員的版本他們就認為說不應該去改這個起算期間應該是去暫停時效去把時效停止如果你要停止時效就是說我時效一樣從犯罪時期算但是你在未成年之前這個是停止計算的這個停止計算這個是民間現在一般主流意見如果是這樣就是應該修83條對不對"},{"start":442.401,"end":461.872,"text":"八十三條他就是有關追溯權時效他停止進行變成一種訴訟障礙的理由嘛對不對市長這八十條跟八十三條差別在這裡嗎是對那事實上國際的立法例上面有一些是像我們也有委員提到用八十條之一他完全沒有追溯時效這個"},{"start":464.335,"end":487.997,"text":"在國際立法例上面也有好像美國加拿大他們都是就是有關性侵害案件他就完全沒有追溯時效完全排除追溯時效這個這個的話就立法就八十我們有委員提了八十條之一的立法這三種立法例我們法務部現在目前採取的是八十條的八十條這是你們把改變這個起算起算的的的點啦齁那這個這個"},{"start":490.475,"end":513.789,"text":"跟一般民間團體大家認為說應該是要修83條才對應該修83條才對那不過如果我們在法理上面來爭執這個可能又延宕了我們的修法所以我們是如果說從80來修80條也是可以接受但是目前就是剛才大家也都一直關心我們行政院是在"},{"start":515.751,"end":539.662,"text":"在這個2月29號也就是兩個月前會前司法院那我們看到司法院的報告上個禮拜決定我們今天議程的時候我們看到司法院的報告司法院還沒有會前出來啊結果剛剛司法院回答說啊有我們4月10號已經函付4月10號就上禮拜五啦我們的議程出來之後司法院趕快函付給行政院那現在所以"},{"start":540.678,"end":547.185,"text":"對行政院來講是4月10日禮拜五收到到今天才收到所以我想先請司法院我只問一個啦你們韓服的結果是什麼 同意"},{"start":553.769,"end":577.418,"text":"報告委員 司法院經過4月10號下午開院會我們是同意會選同意會選 按照行政院的版本嗎是的好 謝謝請回 我就這個問題因為我沒有看到你們函附的文我不曉得你們函附的結果是怎麼樣所以現在簡單講 函附回行政院了行政院在多久之後可以送到立法院來報告委員 我們回去會跟行政院這邊"},{"start":578.26,"end":607.465,"text":"就要表達說委員的意見如果你們可以很快的送到這個立法院來那我等一下我們這個主要審查的時候我就會主張說那我們先保留協商即使就算出文會我們保留協商讓你們在協商期之間趕快把你們的案子送進立法院來這是一個辦法是不是可以讓我們回去因為司法院的會嫌才剛剛進來對 剛剛進來 上禮拜五才那我們也要看一下司法院會嫌的部分在行政院這邊我們再做一個"},{"start":608.274,"end":631.921,"text":"好那這個但是其實這29個版本裡面我剛剛講說29個版本裡面有各式各樣不一樣的修法那各國的立法也有各種不一樣但是這裡面有一個重點其他的這些我們都可以討論但是我們現在目前修了80條針對刑法裡面的性侵害犯罪那麼有關於兒少"},{"start":635.714,"end":642.628,"text":"而少性剝削條例裡面的其他的這些時效目前按照我們只修80條是沒有排除的喔時效沒有排除"},{"start":643.758,"end":672.069,"text":"衛福部針對這個部分會有他們的法條上他們會上我知道我們法務部的意見就是但這個其實其實你就法議衡量來講兒童少年性剝削防治條例他所保護的兒童跟少年的跟少年的這個性資主權這個是法議這是比成年人一般普遍的成年人他法議還更嚴重但是我們現在在刑法裡面有用80條把他排除時效了但是我們兒童跟少年性剝削防治條例沒有排除"},{"start":674.419,"end":700.654,"text":"這個應該是這個你們法務部的態度就是這樣法務部就說因為這個主管是衛福部所以我們有委員提案喔就在我們八十條裡面就直接把這個兒少性撥調條例的這些條文特別法把它列到刑法裡面來排除時效這樣子的立法例當然是你們不贊成嘛也不妥啦就是說用這個普通法來排除"},{"start":701.684,"end":721.842,"text":"排除特別法的時效 這個在立法會上非常奇怪啦沒有辦法這樣處理啦 對所以一定要在兒少條例裡面或是這個防治條例裡面來修改啦但是這個部分你們的態度就但這個很抱歉 這主管機關是衛福部對 這我們本部沒有辦法來衛福部今天有代表來衛福部"},{"start":727.935,"end":748.579,"text":"公委員報告依照這個兒少性剝削防治條例第31條70號規定跟未滿16歲之人有對價之性交會猥褻行為者依刑法之規定處罰所以原則上它有部分其實是跟刑法依照刑法的規定 你就說對價關係的部分了你那全部的這個整部整部的兒少這個我跟你講這個當然今天這個我們"},{"start":753.64,"end":770.585,"text":"這個只是一個副司長副司長來那要代表著但衛福部在這方面真的是動作太慢我們今天可能修法就刑法80條我們就修正通過了結果我們兒童跟這個少年性剝削防治條例裡面我們的時效卻沒有排除你們這個衛福部我最後啦很抱歉時間到其實你們衛福部"},{"start":779.795,"end":808.01,"text":"其實這樣是完全是真的是有待遇者你們連其他齁其他你們在這個性騷擾你們性騷擾防治法這個性騷擾防治法跟這個性別教育平衡法裡面你們都已經排除了都已經把成年人的那個時效排除了性騷擾都已經成年人的時效都排除了你們這個兒童少年性侵害這個性剝削防治裡面還沒有去排除"},{"start":810.031,"end":817.644,"text":"這部分請你回去反映給部裡面好不好好 我們以併納入來處理 謝謝好 以上 剩下的意見我就等一下主條的時候我們再來討論"}]}},{"id":"168451","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168451","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5655ee4938da65e184b55c1a95c3eeb0e63d9eaeca1783e3291cfc8066c9e4d908f75701a873fd4f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"顏寬恒","委員發言時間":"10:25:08 - 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謝謝主席各位列席官員大家好主席有請我們經濟部賴長賜還有中油公司方董事長方董事長委員好"},{"start":23.922,"end":39.206,"text":"中東戰爭原先協議停火但是昨天談判破裂所以再度面臨油價上漲的壓力那我們就從最民生的部分來檢討就是燃燒資金的塑膠袋短缺的問題"},{"start":41.407,"end":66.546,"text":"讓民眾不堪其擾主要原因就是因為原預料缺貨我們鞏部長上個月才說塑膠袋很好生產非常好生產所以供貨沒有問題結果馬上就爆發塑膠袋之亂這就代表說不夠了解市場雖然我們是希望說民眾能夠減塑減少塑膠但是不是說沒有塑膠袋"},{"start":67.527,"end":81.998,"text":"所以其實台灣全國各縣市都有非常多的傳統市場市場攤販現在都反應陳情說塑膠袋買不到連像我們路邊的這些早餐店他們都貼公告說不提供塑膠袋要自備"},{"start":82.839,"end":105.578,"text":"那所以目前請中油跟台塑生產這個量能增加但是還是難以解決短期的這些缺乏還有價格上漲的問題所以這一次是你們預判錯誤導致塑膠量大量缺貨那你們的因應對策是什麼有沒有這個加大力道去稽查是否有業者故意橫排物價還有這個違法囤積的問題"},{"start":108.641,"end":129.049,"text":"那預計的量能能夠提高 生產的部分能夠提高多少那我是希望說在永格機場這種如果有這些投機行為不管是紅牌物價 還有囤積物的這些部分因為攤販生存很不容易那有些為了要買這個塑膠袋一大早跑了五間店 結果發現說"},{"start":131.65,"end":141.268,"text":"早上去看他介紹 到下午介紹又差20% 又過兩聲所以說這是一種等於是趁火打劫的行為那所以可不可以請市長先回答一下"},{"start":142.743,"end":168.401,"text":"就如同剛剛委員講的預期的心理可能會造成產銷秩序的一個失衡但事實上經濟部為了解決這個問題從幾個方面著手第一個原料的穩定的供給中油的擴大的生產下油的加速的媒合我以塑膠袋生產的原料也就是我們做的塑膠力的這個產品以吸為力"},{"start":169.682,"end":191.762,"text":"乙烯大概一個月需要差不多11.8萬噸但是我們現在所有的國內的生產差不多將近超過16萬噸那遠大於我們這個需求那原料生產跟供應你現在說沒問題可是沒問題為什麼缺貨所以我們要把問題找出來啊紅茶物價囤積啊找到了沒有"},{"start":192.262,"end":218.911,"text":"所以這個部分由我們透過跨部會的一個聯合的稽查這個部分來執行看看委員有沒有你說的現象但是重點是說當現在民眾有一些的恐慌或是店家有略感不足的話我們經濟部也每天透過電話跟群組的方式針對於所有的商圈所有的市場來去看它的需求性是如何"},{"start":219.651,"end":220.932,"text":"到底缺了多少量?缺的量都是一些大家感到庫存不足的部分需要補貨的"},{"start":233.035,"end":259.032,"text":"那以我們的為例的話比如說我們部長也除了透過我們商發署每天透過群組跟電話關懷之外跟商圈去看事實上以高雄的這個商圈為例的話他的商圈的理事長也有提到說他的一個特殊的這個用品的存量事實上是夠的但是現在沒有不足但是當天的會議有另外嘉義的這個業者來提到說"},{"start":260.453,"end":286.36,"text":"市長 因為你講到高雄 講到嘉義 講到各縣市那產量是夠的 但是為什麼缺貨所以問題要找出來嘛 所以就囤積嘛這些投機行為 不法行為 你要找出來所以我希望你們趕快去落實啦 好不好趕快去落實 這第一個第二個就是說 這個中東局勢的能源安全問題啦我們這個目前美伊談判破局了嘛所以繼續封鎖這個赫姆茲海峽"},{"start":287.481,"end":297.291,"text":"因為地緣政治風險溢價攀升所以面對伊朗不願放行的僵局雖然短期內有稍微的雲流供給"},{"start":298.055,"end":325.026,"text":"那但是因為它這個赫芬茲海峽出口受阻中油在原油進口來源的多樣化上有什麼樣的應變方案那因為你也簽口證實說開戰以來沒有一桶原油來自於中東地區沒有一桶原油從中東地區運送出來那因此目前除了沙烏地美國或者是西非原油進口的比例是否能在第二季快速的挑戰"},{"start":325.746,"end":349.204,"text":"可以降低對於中東的依賴可以嗎第一個不是沒有一桶原油從中東進來景上面來講是通過和睦之海峽就和睦之海峽沒有一桶原油從那邊來但是我們透過繞道紅海的方式或是其他的這個區域來補足這一些因為受到和睦之海峽所影響的貨氣跟貨源"},{"start":351.266,"end":372.598,"text":"那目前我們的所有不管是現貨未來的排程都有掌握了那至於油價的這個走向事實上我們時時的去觀察我個人我也經常去看油價的變動任何一個國際的情勢或是一個國際的主要的領袖講一句話的話可能對於油價的一個"},{"start":372.978,"end":373.378,"text":"雖然說比"},{"start":388.334,"end":393.398,"text":"市長 如果說海峽封鎖長期沒有什麼樣可以解套的話那7D31這個指標油價往上衝嘛 現在120 130嘛 對不對120 130 那我們國內油價 因為你現在是環漲對不對 環漲嘛 那它下一季 或者更"},{"start":413.248,"end":420.534,"text":"到年底當然年底又牽扯到剛剛也有人提到其他有人提到說1月28號要選舉了油價不會漲肯定不會漲怕影響選舉但是我們什麼時候會面臨這個"},{"start":427.301,"end":447.877,"text":"跳躍式的調生這第一個第二個就是說他那邊伊朗有拋出一個計畫說要對於海峽的遊輪每桶徵收一美元的通行費就是通行費並要求要以加密貨幣來支付那"},{"start":448.755,"end":465.565,"text":"我國是我國油價採取7D3V的公司計算那請問這額外的1美元的通行費是被歸類於我們的原油採購成本還是中油的營運成本那如果是原油採購成本就代表說即便"},{"start":466.545,"end":494.555,"text":"原有的價格波動但是這屬於只要通行費存在通行費存在那國內的油價就無法調降嘛這又是另外一個無法不可預測的嘛是不是這樣子跟委員報告在戰事之前那國際的油價差不多每桶80塊左右最高來到122那你剛剛講的其實未來包括上個禮拜上個禮拜情勢稍微和緩馬上降到94那今天"},{"start":495.615,"end":521.471,"text":"那是差不多一百零二不管是布蘭特跟這個這個杜拜都是差不多是這個價格所以我們緊密的去關注啊國際的這個市場的一個報價的狀況那除此之外的話我們還是維持我們雙平穩的機制那至於你剛剛講的所謂的通行費的部分我們既然我們現在啊不需要從河本塵海峽沒有開放之前我們從其他的貨源來調貨自然沒有這個問題"},{"start":525.239,"end":544.893,"text":"伊朗更要求說要以加密貨幣的部分來做這樣子的支付我是說他拋出這樣子的說法如果說中友為了支付通行費未來我們必須要承受這樣子的一個情況因為加密貨幣的漲跌劇烈 難以估計這一筆金融風險就產生了額外的負擔"},{"start":554.759,"end":565.941,"text":"那這些負擔又是被我們國人必須要轉嫁到國內所以我們是否未來有能力去應付到這種高度不穩定的支付成本這是第一個第一個就是說"},{"start":569.453,"end":576.719,"text":"中友必須要針對未來加密貨幣通行費的方式去建立嚴謹的財務避險機制現在沒發生嗎未來不見得會發生嗎現在沒有"},{"start":587.868,"end":613.59,"text":"行政已經專案的核准了油品的貨物稅50%就是做這個因應那除此之外的話其實中油公司對於未來的採購的策略包括現在油品的這個價格都是密切的在緊盯那我們緊遵了我們現在的雙平穩的機制包括亞林最低價我們是希望把這個油的這個價格包括天然氣的價格"},{"start":614.711,"end":625.658,"text":"然後控制在不會造成我們國內經濟重大的影響的這個層面上面所以說我們一定要建立嚴謹的財務避險機制確保國內油價確保國內油價能夠確實反映國際情勢的一個緩解還有合理的回落啦好不好好 謝謝委員長"}]}},{"id":"168455","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168455","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5655ee4938da65e1ce4734a0b3e0bc4c81f6660fd2e34289291cfc8066c9e4d9e544a20d61f30db85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳永康","委員發言時間":"10:32:35 - 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traffic全部可以对应在领海基线以内12里24里这中间所有黄色的是商船红色的是邮轮但是这里面有上百计的灰色的不管是在毛破的或者是在行动通通把AIS关掉"},{"start":229.264,"end":251.227,"text":"那因此对于我们海海巡的同仁来讲我们举例来讲刚刚提了虽然有很多的投资未来在海岸监控不管设有多少定点雷达站或者是机动雷达站再加上未来的红外线的侦测因为对于这种RCS非常小的目的"},{"start":252.148,"end":274.475,"text":"基本上传统雷达就算先进雷达你的涵盖范围跟距离是很短的所以这个不能把它变成海巡署单一的责任那我建议是什么做呢第一个你把台湾周遭啊所有的海岸线1200公里长度去掉有些悬崖峭壁没有帘外的你每20公里你把一个卫星照片啊"},{"start":274.955,"end":303.007,"text":"把海滩、帘外道路配合road map全部套叠起来我们大概用50张图用国内的研究机制你不管是找学校合作或是大海局把你这个图做出来了海军、海巡共同分讲也就是说你雷达站的位置配合你往后无人机可以涵盖的范围现在无人机当然刚刚讲到了你的endurance持续力有多远"},{"start":303.942,"end":319.747,"text":"续航力有多长最主要就是你传输的距离有多少那这个传输的频道通讯频道是要花钱的并不是free的所以买了装备以后维持费跟使用费你要帮他纳入他的年度作为费里面"},{"start":320.447,"end":350.107,"text":"那这种情况下来如果今天海巡跟海军因为海军涵盖的范围是比较大的它的雷达是征收中大型的目标的我们讲的小型跟微型是不同的你如果今天一个RCS只有0.1个meter square这不是我们海军传统的那你对空看的话它可能是逆中的可能是无人机的那对空跟海面的搜索又是不同雷达的规格所以这个部分就是海巡跟海军将来有大家共同合作努力的空间"},{"start":350.727,"end":364.383,"text":"最主要就是說基本上現在的我們電子海圖是內政部在出但實際上海圖的校正是大氣海洋局在做那做出來的圖像海圖航圖經過校正套疊"},{"start":365.664,"end":389.216,"text":"這個時候他有一個不明目標出來的時候有沒有配合他的空中的飛機給他做導引這個未來我們在追蹤上面就是說他不只是工程的技術不只是我們的法規那這裡面還有說戰術思維的運用我們希望在這個未來將來跨域的單位第一個我們講的共同圖像並不是說開會的時候拿出來打的"},{"start":390.066,"end":408.609,"text":"我打比方来讲我们有很多地方的这个显示图像啊他并没有接入我们的每个地区的网络也就是说海巡是不是跟海军会立即通但是现在进步的是什么呢我如果今天我我现在有我有这个智慧型的手机那个眼镜啊我有两到三个"},{"start":409.721,"end":437.358,"text":"那么看到的雷达图像就进到手机然后用你的频道就传出去了而不是要你的装备的实体去网络因为执法并不是在暂时它成品时期它的压力就已经非常大了所以要不同的人在不同的location做监控这个时候可能人力的复合我们也建议未来给它提升那最主要就是共同图像从大区的战略图像到分区的小图像那"},{"start":438.098,"end":456.104,"text":"今天主要讲的是那个围形的目标那这个东西并不能用装备的规格来审视说一定抓得到所以这个责任是要分摊但是不要哪一个人摊那我把这个提出构想后面几个我把做一个流程给大家做参考就不要用太多的时间"},{"start":457.458,"end":479.292,"text":"像海巡署裝了這個寬頻的系統它有效支援範圍互通程度那麼速發部兩年前就是提升了將來警消對話的流程爭取這個閘道的在台建置能不能夠更高的頻寬流量利誘站這個都提供大家做參考"},{"start":479.992,"end":495.064,"text":"那速发部以前提供的就是低轨卫星我们现在能够用到什么程度这些通通都是我们在持续在努力精进的最后一个就是海上无人小型目标的监控这个部分我们提供国防部做一个参考"},{"start":495.484,"end":516.435,"text":"那我覺得這些細節不在這邊討論,我想聽一下局長跟副部長您的回應。好,跟委員大概提醒了有三個部分的重點。那第一部分就是針對中共對台灣的複合式威脅。那正如委員指出來的,特可能包括到的有軍事的恫嚇、經濟的脅迫、資安的侵擾、認知作戰的操作以及海上揮帶的侵擾。"},{"start":517.375,"end":537.802,"text":"那我想我們在日常每天都應對這些中共的複合式威脅那不能夠掉以輕心那很有可能這些複合式威脅也是未來中共要在台海新興續戰的一個前置的一個作業流程所以這部分我們國安情報機關這邊倒是有建立一個跨部會的情資整合的平台希望能夠掌握最新的海上的中共侵擾的動態"},{"start":538.582,"end":562.587,"text":"那第二部分是我有提到空域保留區的部分那確實像委員所提出來的我們在第一時間去查證就發現到他的那個空域保留區並沒有去重疊到相關的民航機的航線刻意避開那第二個我們跟民航單位確認也都不必再跟上海飛航情報局做任何的通報所以比較存在高的是一個政治上抱歉軍事上跟政治上的意涵"},{"start":563.027,"end":591.13,"text":"那這也是我們觀察狀況我說明一下就是說我們並不需要跟上海飛航局做通報我最主要是告訴你上海飛航情報區它的那個航線畫出來的圖啊我們需要有然後你去對應當時的那個飛行的路徑一比較就可以了 並不需要通報完全避開的 完全避開好 那第三點是委員有在提醒怎麼樣來透過多元情資的整合來彙整相關的情資那並且有一個共同的一個圖台圖像的一個展現"},{"start":591.69,"end":615.448,"text":"那事實上針對這個部分我本人在上個月也才到海巡署跟海巡署做一級主管來針對一些新的我們的一個通報的一個機制以及新的技術運用來做一些共同合作的一些努力那也引進一些民間的一些這方面的一些科技能量來提升我們的一個徵收量所以這部分我們繼續來努力副部長做一個簡單的回應"},{"start":617.009,"end":638.177,"text":"是 委員 三點第一點您的這個PowerPoint實在是我非常崇拜麻煩分享給我們我仔細閱讀跟學習一下第二點呢我非常贊成您所說的要跨單位的協助 協同那現在我們海軍跟海巡署實際上已經在協同他們親自是分享這個問題不是這個問題問題是"},{"start":641.276,"end":655.31,"text":"兩個第一個就您所說的關於ISR的增資的能力要興建剛才海巡署也說了我們也說了我們都在建無人機也好或者是衛星也好那另外一個是"},{"start":656.397,"end":673.931,"text":"AI因為你去收了大量的圖資你如果沒有AI是根本人是盼不過來的所以AI是非常非常重要的那我們本部的AI目前是在特別預算的裡面那最後一點就是這個未來我是希望"},{"start":676.053,"end":693.176,"text":"這個大家都具有AI能力以後彼此協助但是這裡我要跟委員報告我們國軍的徵收目標跟任務導向還是跟海巡不一樣所以可能到時候AI完了以後各自還是有各自徵收的對象以上"},{"start":694.96,"end":706.658,"text":"還有一個小問題請海巡署回答因為在您的報告中提到監控包括紅色海灘您的定義紅色海灘是什麼我們現在國防部定義的紅色海灘"},{"start":707.956,"end":729.868,"text":"那個不一樣紅色海灘是兩溪登陸正規的登陸但是現在都已經到迎擊以下了所以那個紅色海灘並不是你現在的重點我這邊提出個建議你最主要就是他滲透登陸滲透搶灘跟那個真正的兩溪正規的你看得到周波進行要登陸那個海灘那個倒不是您這邊的重點謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168465","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168465","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5655ee4938da65e198205379033423d4306a382356a5b219aa0fde58f0e31cf2463ad1f040b56f5c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"11:08:49 - 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案件 站在"},{"start":115.256,"end":134.023,"text":"法務部當然講我那立場打擊犯罪有時候我們認為常常就是除惡勿近但是法律這一套邏輯裡面又有法的安定性的一個問題我不曉得司法院你們的看法是怎麼樣你說這個法律有時候未成年人未成年人"},{"start":136.95,"end":162.877,"text":"或者說甚至於是兒少發生了這樣的一個性侵案件我們從衛護部也好從監察院也好這樣的一個統計的一個報告裡面監察院調查裡面76%加害者是詮釋上不對等啦不管是詮釋不對等或者是未成年人那衛護部剛剛統計是說性侵被害人一半是未成年人喔那以這樣來看的話這個對被害人來講的話"},{"start":164.517,"end":181.678,"text":"你這個時效,有一天我想告的時候,這個對被案人來講法律的規定,它太晚了,時間上它太晚了。可是有時候這個又不是它太晚的問題,是你這個制度又太早把它給關門了。我不曉得,廳長你的看法怎麼樣?"},{"start":183.044,"end":206.589,"text":"追溯權失效本身是要去平衡犯罪訴罪的要求國家刑法權的行使以及法律安定性這些衝突的利益如何去權衡的一個機制以未成年的性侵害被害人來講他會有幾個特徵跟一般的狀況可能不太一樣比如說他身心發展未成熟他可能受制於權力不對等"},{"start":208.149,"end":233.249,"text":"那所以說在他法律追逐權時效開始進行的時候他當下或是在一段的期間裡面法律有賦予他去告訴的這個機會或揭發這個犯罪的機會但是他事實上卻無法行使那以這個事實上的基礎來做立法權衡那我相信今天行政院跟司法院已經有一個會選版的草案"},{"start":233.709,"end":251.244,"text":"那今天委員總共提了29條的29案的這個草案那都是本於這樣的一個事實來做一個立法的規劃那我覺得依照這個事實基礎來做適當的制度權我相信這是一個合理而且可以期待的一個做法您也覺得合理"},{"start":251.744,"end":270.112,"text":"其實時效一般在講說時間經過了以後法律久了以後要讓他給安定性可是因為時間經過你如果沒有去做區分的話有的是基於權勢不對等有的是因為他還是小孩來不及告等到哪一天他長大了他要告的時候法律跟你說不好意思太晚了關門了"},{"start":272.23,"end":280.503,"text":"又有這樣的一個問題就變成整個正義的一個追求我們又覺得好奇怪所以我看廳長這邊的意識跟衛務部這邊的意識也認為說確實這個追溯權的一個時效是可以去做調整的"},{"start":286.943,"end":312.114,"text":"這部分是屬於立法形成的空間那當然要問問你們的意見 我也說沒有要立法形成現在就大家陷入 大家討論的都是幾位法律安定性啊然後跟整個被害者正義之間的一個平衡啊但是那個平衡 你如果講法律安定性沒有去做區分的話那個安定性只在講時間而已啊他沒有去區分說 權勢到底是不是不對等"},{"start":313.094,"end":332.08,"text":"這個個案裡面權勢是不是不對等然後被害人到底他是不是小孩子他整個心智的成熟方面來講的話那只因為時間經過了那基於法的安定性時效消滅檢察官只能不起訴處分哪怕你起訴了到法院去一樣不受理"},{"start":333.254,"end":360.393,"text":"會有這樣的問題啊是 兒少他這個身心發展未成熟那以及他可能跟大人之間因為年齡的差距跟實力的差距或是其他的關係他處於權力不對我相信這是大部這個幾乎是兒少的心情悲哀可能共同有的這個論述大家都知道了我說你們態度啦態度我們是肯定這樣的一個形成因為如果給他的時間他沒有辦法行駛那這個時間等於就是沒有給他的意思OK 阿哥很好 阿次長"},{"start":361.113,"end":383.491,"text":"那差不多要倒夢倒回來之後 這個修法裡面你們淘寶部的態度我們也是認為說跟大部分委員還有這樣我們司法院這邊的意見都是一樣肯定說我們這個未成年人遭到性侵害的部分上追溯權應該是讓他成年就20歲以後再開始所以這件事就是在向社會宣告這件事你不可以做"},{"start":384.972,"end":404.209,"text":"尤其是涉及到整個性侵的尤其是對這些未成年人的涉及到權勢不對等的哪怕有一天時效就已經經過了十年了經過了二十年了真不好意思因為當初權勢不對等可能你的下屬他不敢去跟你舉發小孩子因為心智不成熟他還沒有長大這樣我們就延長"},{"start":406.351,"end":416.419,"text":"所以這個其實是社會上有共識的你意思也是這樣嗎好 那我簡單在另外進入 那個衛務部請回那兩位先留著一下就是說我們這個小兒貪汙這個 我覺得今天是阿仲頭戲啦大案"},{"start":422.401,"end":442.417,"text":"涉及到整個結構性的一個問題啦有時候你說幾百塊、幾千塊、一萬塊那貪污罪名是很重法重但是很多就是情輕的一個問題啦那個確實是值得去做差別的一個待遇啦其實我到本席一直認為這個修法"},{"start":444.659,"end":465.486,"text":"不是什麼放寬的問題啦是在講行為人的責任跟他不法的一個內涵有沒有符合比例原則啦貪汙 命很難聽啊違背職務的行為那當然可惡啊 殺啊但是跟不違背職務的行為或者是金額很小有時候常常金額 你去跟那個證交法"},{"start":466.38,"end":492.81,"text":"那個規定金額本身就涵蓋了整個不法的一個內涵在裡面所以我是認為今天基於說整個清潔輕微的部分提出這樣的一個修法社會上其實本來就是可以來做討論但是我們也很怕誤解其實這一次的一個修法裡面你說犯第四條到第六條之罪其實它一樣就有13種不同的一個類型"},{"start":494.285,"end":508.875,"text":"這個過程要見還要加上情節輕微還有所得不法利益是在五萬元以下不是說不法利益五萬元以下這兩個很減輕免除其刑這個社會有時候常常會造成一個誤解啦也就是說你真正你要去減輕的話很抱歉喔也要通過法官那一關說情節它本身是輕微的就是它的動機啦危險性啦犯刑的強度啦外在的壓力啦"},{"start":524.265,"end":548.053,"text":"倒不是只有單純從整個財產所得的一個金額的一個大小所以這個方向喔 這個方向 我不曉得司法院跟法務部這個地方 你們簡單來做一個回應這樣三檔大家在這裡說的時候喔 比較不肖貼大家在那裡 沒來沒去啦 你知不知道 次長你的態度跟委員講 委員講的我們都很贊成 事實上"},{"start":548.693,"end":570.32,"text":"條文的這個部分四到六條他必須要這個情節輕微還要加上說所得個人不正利益在五萬元以下他不是說一旦到五萬元以下就一定是這樣子他要給法院再有一個比例原則的一個判斷我們也很怕社會上誤解說我們在貪污這件事情上竟然是放寬了就是說貪五萬塊錢沒事這樣我們不是這樣的一個意思"},{"start":570.7,"end":588.939,"text":"其實無論是法務部我還有我們還有各委員的意思都不是這樣子都是希望說在綜合評量上真正是有情節輕微然後又是五萬塊以下的我們才會有這樣的一個讓法官有一個多的一個判決的一個良心的一個上面的一個這樣的一個判斷"},{"start":590.4,"end":614.421,"text":"這樣講就很清楚了,你比如說我舉例啊,三萬塊好了,可是你收了三萬塊,你這個是違背職務的一個行為啊,法官可能會,旁邊的廳長可能會認為說,你這可惡啊,雖然是三萬塊,你就是違背職務,然後你這個不法內涵很高,你這個對於整個行為人的一個責任,然後分析整個綜合來判斷的話,雖然是三萬塊啊,還有可能是重判啊,廳長不是這樣子嗎?"},{"start":616.874,"end":635.033,"text":"就是剛剛我們在討論的這個問題基本上就是如何讓法官的裁量空間可以符合罪行相當怎麼樣定才是適當這樣的一個問題那其實判處制度條例四到六條它本來就是一個特別法它的量刑本來就是從重"},{"start":635.914,"end":654.742,"text":"那12條他不是說直接檢或免他是讓法官審酌他的情節是不是輕微審酌他所圖得的利益綜合來考慮要不要檢或免那檢的話因為這條條文同時已經增加了免除期刑這樣的規定依照刑法66條可以檢至剩下三分之一"},{"start":655.462,"end":679.57,"text":"那甚至他也可以再搭配59條再做減刑所以他基本上他是讓法官可以有裁量的空間那把他定清楚會比目前使用實質違法性這樣一個理論他能夠會有一個更一致的一個裁量的標準那這個對於整個罪行相當的這個理論的落實在實務上落實是有幫助的好 謝謝那今天就是綜合整個幾個版本的問題啦好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168464","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168464","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5655ee4938da65e13b8b058c5c2a455de63d9eaeca1783e3aa0fde58f0e31cf2463ad1f040b56f5c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李彥秀","委員發言時間":"11:08:08 - 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請李燕秀 李昭偉質詢謝謝主席 我是不是可以邀請陳淑珠 陳淑資主席長永陽行副總裁 法務部的張司長衛福部的林靜怡次長經濟部的賴次長 國發會的高副主委高副主委 請一併上台"},{"start":24.282,"end":43.688,"text":"大家好因為今天時間非常緊湊我們在最近針對聯合稽查的部分我們大規模的發動了好幾次的稽查目前稽查的結果其實很大的陣仗但是我們卻沒有任何一件涉嫌違法對不對幾乎都是合法的對不對稽查的結論"},{"start":51.028,"end":64.744,"text":"目前我們在稽查的情形裡面大概有兩件是有列入他治安在做偵辦的其餘的部分也有一些可能看起來是有異常情形也都在持續的釐清他的這個漲價的情形"},{"start":67.007,"end":72.43,"text":"目前看到的漲價狀況沒有異常囤積或不法的烘台情勢其他兩屆都還在調查當中物價上漲並不是聯合的壟斷而是我們現在國際原物料飆漲結構性的問題推升的一個結果"},{"start":87.461,"end":90.642,"text":"就是說現在的漲價都應該是輸入性通膨的問題就是說我們目前的結論就是漲價是真的但是沒有任何不法的狀況不是跟犯罪沒有關係我可以做這樣的結論嗎"},{"start":104.133,"end":118.813,"text":"根委員報告因為法務部我們主責的部份就是針對刑事的部份那有犯罪嫌疑的部份我清楚都在他站調查就是說漲價是真的但是這大致上都沒有囤積的事實那我們最近看到"},{"start":119.213,"end":126.397,"text":"到底漲了哪些東西包括現在近陣子大家討論到的塑膠袋之亂之外但現在漲價也進入了醫院根據醫院團的調查79%的醫院反映塑膠衣材的供貨上漲42%醫院訂貨受到了很大的影響包括我們大家都知道的次長"},{"start":141.105,"end":142.987,"text":"PVC的手套漲了35%到46%抽痰管漲了17%到24%導尿管漲了25%到21%氣管抽痰漲了21%細菌過濾器漲了10%到32%"},{"start":156.522,"end":163.404,"text":"超過一半的醫院都反映大量的這些狀況都訂貨42%的醫院訂貨受到影響29%的醫院庫存量也出現不足的狀況這個是整體目前漲價的狀況所以這不是夜市攤販買不到塑膠袋的問題"},{"start":178.408,"end":188.955,"text":"市長這不是買不到塑膠袋的問題這是現在醫院包括抽痰管跟保尿管手套都在漲價的問題這個漲價的狀況物價飆漲包括供貨有可能持續的惡化"},{"start":194.659,"end":218.953,"text":"也會影響到我們現在醫療院所業務維持的監控那包括後續我們更擔心的是醫療服務品質甚至會侵害到醫院病人就醫的權益這個是我們後續擔心的狀況當然我知道市長我們現在有四個具體的措施可以去做處理包括跨部會的協助供應通報還有支付標準的調整等狀況但是"},{"start":220.874,"end":235.275,"text":"我聽到很多醫療院所的陳情包括他們跟我溝通多數都不是缺貨的問題而是成本的飛漲這個成本的飛漲後續這就不是我們藥物平台可以去做處理的"},{"start":235.996,"end":247.682,"text":"那衛福部的剛才的書面報告我也讀到就是說你們有提到說可以申請調高相關的一些幾部的價格包括任性預算當中我們也編列了200億的安全準備金那我要請問次長我們目前有廠商提出申請嗎目前兩家"},{"start":255.686,"end":275.176,"text":"那他們拿出他們的成本的這個部分才能夠讓健保署這邊去做計算因為這個我想委員也很清楚長期在未還所以我們在健保給付的價格事實上要請廠商這邊拿出他們相關的成本價格然後重新來做討論市長但是我們知道我剛剛講這些狀況不會只有兩家會有成本的問題因為這個後面就是"},{"start":276.076,"end":294.358,"text":"醫院營運成本整個提高我跟您報告就是說第一個事情其實醫院這邊跟各家廠商多數如果是大型醫療院所他們在原先的供貨是有供貨的契約所以供貨的契約這邊他們不能自己去就是說自己去把它的成本做調整因為原來供貨的那個成本就有處理這是第一個事情"},{"start":294.878,"end":310.072,"text":"第二個事情我們現在其實在我們是從源頭端來做處理所以說我們也很感謝經濟部協助我們我們總共27家藥品跟醫材廠商有跟我們通報但是其中7家他們到今年年底都還有庫存的這個原料我要請教次長就是說我們後面會不會開會討論支付的標準要調整"},{"start":315.237,"end":329.97,"text":"成本提高了這個部分我們在支付標準的部分兩個事情第一個事情是因為如果醫院本身跟他的這個醫材或藥品廠商簽的約他簽了約那時候他的原來供給的那個價格其實他成本上面事實上回到的是廠商這裡不是醫院這裡"},{"start":332.172,"end":351.699,"text":"廠商成本提高他可能也會跟醫院溝通得好所以跟您報告說我們的方向事實上現在是請經濟部協助就是讓他的供貨這邊從供貨成本來做處理避免廠商這邊因為我們去調健保價事實上是醫院這邊可是健保價他的給付我們給付健保價對醫院來講他的成本他原先跟廠商這邊簽的約他影響不在這邊我再請問一個問題市長我們會比照輸益的方式處理嗎"},{"start":357.941,"end":376.52,"text":"所以現在是缺貨缺貨的時候我們是用專案進口全面我們自己來處理那你會編列專案的預算來去做後續的處理嗎委員現在全世界它都是在這個塑膠的原料的部分我知道這是世界性的問題但是在廠商這邊或者是在醫院端這邊我們會不會有專案的方式來協助我們現在就是說如果在"},{"start":376.84,"end":393.371,"text":"真的他就因為他的這個成本影響到他這個健保給付價格那就剛剛像剛剛跟委員報告的我們走健保的這個溢價的程序他回到我們供你會來做處理那如果有需求我們立法供你會就來開但是廠方這邊要那個成本的資料給我們那你錢從哪裡來就是那兩百億"},{"start":396.611,"end":412.808,"text":"兩百億 那個準備金如果兩百億準備金不夠的話呢我們現在估起來會夠因為估起來寬估跟窄估大概都在幾十億而已好 但是我們還是希望是說因為健保價的調整它影響很大我希望這個是短期的對 所以我們要做各式各樣model的"},{"start":414.21,"end":432.169,"text":"我們會從前端原料端來做處理那接下來我就要請問一下就是說在這段時間無論是塑膠袋的缺貨或相關的一些塑膠製品的缺貨這個差價我知道衛福部之前有請經濟部協調大型石化廠優先供應國人醫療所需"},{"start":434.011,"end":444.156,"text":"所以當時中油的專案提供了5000噸的平價乙烯那這個5000噸的平價乙烯這個價格是由誰吸收?中油吸收了嗎?"},{"start":445.663,"end":466.124,"text":"這個是由我們中油公司來協調包括它下油供應商台塑公司一起來讓這個所謂的不管是進料的價格或是出料的這個價格的部分維持一個平穩我知道 那這個價格是誰吸收 因為中間有差價嘛沒有嗎 還是你直接叫廠商就是一定要給你平價 不可能吧"},{"start":466.984,"end":486.457,"text":"中油供給台塑的生產塑膠力的售價部分就是平穩的專案平穩的一個措施這個價格的部分不會像外面坊間叫價你要漲到50%或是多少%以上"},{"start":488.059,"end":508.881,"text":"你跟台塑是用什麼樣的價格?跟過去一樣的價格嗎?這五千噸的平價乙烯,因為你叫平價乙烯,你是用什麼樣的價格?跟過去價格一樣嗎?他們現在已經有簽訂一個合約了我要問的就是,這個價格跟過去不一樣嘛,因為都在缺貨嘛所以這個價格是誰吸收了?"},{"start":509.603,"end":536.214,"text":"市長跟委員報告就是這個五千噸是一個專案的評價的專案那輸送的對象就是給台塑那我們給他以息這個產品那價格的部分的話呢就是評價所以在價格的部分有做一些特別的考慮那麼雙方互相吸收是他退一些你退一些但是還是有差距誰吸收中油吸收還是跟過去的價格一樣"},{"start":538.223,"end":556.993,"text":"現在乙烯的價格都比戰前要漲嘛我知道漲嘛那是它漲嘛所以差個這個部分是誰吸收因為你提供給五千噸的平價乙烯給所有的廠商嘛來解決我們現在價格是誰吸收 差價沒有它去做那個塑膠粒的部分它不漲啊"},{"start":565.845,"end":570.069,"text":"沒關係 我接下來問通膨的問題我想問一下經濟部跟國發會就是說剛剛中國董事長也說過了就是說我們目前油價要三到六個月才恢復中東的局勢談談停停 談談停停我們當然希望短期能夠恢復但這都不是我們能夠掌握的"},{"start":586.502,"end":608.618,"text":"那但是主席長我也要提醒主席長剛剛好幾位委員問說這個到底通膨1.8合不合理我們當然希望是維持在二底下但是很多東西一漲上去就回不來了我從來沒有聽到滷肉飯或那個大腸麵線一碗漲上去五塊之後就因為油價平衡不打漲又再回歸回來所以他外資會要高一點 外資會"},{"start":610.8,"end":626.05,"text":"外食會是比較高一點所以很多東西是漲上去就回不來了嘛但是水果蔬菜都回來了這個我知道但是在民眾普遍的感受上就是很多東西漲上去回不來我們薪水不可能因為油價關係什麼都漲我們也跟老闆講說我們要漲薪水嘛"},{"start":629.833,"end":632.615,"text":"所以我們現在用幾個工具包括我們現在調整貨物稅或者油電目前的動漲我們國發會的中長期政策到底還有沒有其他的工具"},{"start":648.726,"end":664.671,"text":"因為九月份之後我不知道我們還會不會持續的動漲這個當然是政府的決定我也都尊重但是我們還有什麼其他的工具去處理抑制通膨的問題如果是持續的油價一直漲中東局勢沒有短時間獲得解決的話後續怎麼做處理"},{"start":667.392,"end":691.665,"text":"我們研判目前的全球燃油市場如果不是中東戰爭的話是功過於求包括美國已經成為燃油的主要出口國所以我們認為中東這個戰爭應該是一個一段時間短期性的所以我們現在的措施基本上就像委員所說的如果一旦物價有僵固性一旦漲上去就很難回來所以我們現在短期的策略就是"},{"start":693.626,"end":717.918,"text":"你們現在都預估它是短期性的沒有人知道我們都希望它是短期的但是沒有人會預估我們都不知道下一刻會發生什麼事情所以我覺得你目前還是沒有回應到我們希望看到政府有各式各樣因應的措施而且很多東西3到6個月包括董事長也回應說能源的供應鏈需要3到6個月才能夠回復"},{"start":719.359,"end":737.455,"text":"如果到第二季末的時候中東局勢還沒有獲得解決的話那到三到六個月再往上加三到六個月才能回復那就到年底囉就台灣來說我們如果說影響油價的話一個是我們大宗商品跟石油跟天然氣是依靠進口的那這個是會由國際市場來決定"},{"start":739.817,"end":744.521,"text":"我們目前除了油電停漲之外我們還有貨物稅目前支援50%包括像韓國有發油價的支援金等等我的問題是我們中長期還有什麼樣的手段"},{"start":762.077,"end":788.315,"text":"就是控制我們CPI維持在這樣1.8或者2.0以下我想外在的國際的原油油氣跟大宗商品不是我們可以過程由國際市場來決定那我們基本上我們會不包括用央行的貨幣政策或者是我們的一些關稅的減免的相關措施我們儘量可以用我們的政策工具把外在的這些價格的阻斷在可以減輕對國內的"},{"start":790.256,"end":816.212,"text":"對 那至於國內的話我覺得影響比較大的是我們的譬如說蔬菜還有一些水果或者是一些我們一些農產品的價格那我想農業部也會有相關的這些產銷工具你還是沒有回答到我主要的問題你還是沒有回答到我的問題這些工具我都清楚還有什麼樣特別的手段來中長期來去做處理譬如說韓國它發油價的支援金等等我們現在說我們用凍漲"},{"start":817.573,"end":836.973,"text":"韓國是用油價的支援金那我們第二季第三季如果狀況不好通膨又一直往上的話你有什麼樣特別的手段其實你們要講清楚其實動漲其實剛剛的動漲是由國營事業來吸收政府預算來撥補跟韓國他直接補貼到民眾其實是異曲同工只是用不同的"},{"start":837.073,"end":861.577,"text":"所以我才問說那有沒有可能如果九月份我們如果要讓他講的話那會不會用類似像油價資源金來去做後續的取代式我想聽到你做不同的答覆我想我們到時候會再考慮大概兩者的措施哪一個利弊得失對台灣的經濟是比較好的所以不排除類似像韓國的油價資源金等等也可以是考慮的範圍我一直覺得我們台灣應該不會到需要用韓國的"},{"start":864.978,"end":872.343,"text":"當然希望情勢不要那麼糟糕但是我覺得各式各樣手段我覺得政府都應該做好積極的準備以上是我今天的質詢 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168454","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168454","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5655ee4938da65e123f1a72abe921b1fe63d9eaeca1783e3291cfc8066c9e4d9d3f0f74f1cb1674b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴惠員","委員發言時間":"10:35:52 - 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中油董事長 次長讓中油董事長先回答我我想問中油董事長因為前面好幾個委員已經跟你請教過了我簡單的就是室友我就不再跟你就是再繞了一個大圈我再請教你就是說我們的油價什麼時候會上升會調升你預計什麼時候要調升"},{"start":88.056,"end":110.738,"text":"跟委員報告我們現在油價下週的油價每一週的油價都是每一週去做個檢討根據這一週的油價原油價格的一個變化情形來去依據油價公式去做一個核算之後再做一個檢討對於下一週的油價要不要去做一些調整可能調漲可能調降"},{"start":111.018,"end":126.738,"text":"所以你也沒有辦法就是回答我 但看現階段你下個星期可能就是說你要自行吸收你那個107億還是說你要繼續就是用現有的一個狀況就該調了就調"},{"start":129.549,"end":155.361,"text":"報告委員我現在很難回答你這個問題因為你很難回答我這個問題因為這一周的原油價格還在好讓次長來回答中油已吸收超過了100億這個帳要算在誰身上要算在中央政府身上還是要算在中油身上是中油自己出還是中央政府自己出那我們講短時間中東的戰勢不會停止那如果我們再講的"},{"start":156.061,"end":168.656,"text":"就是說你中油的說法他其實船隻是卡在荷姆茲海峽上短時間國內的就是國際的油價有沒有可能下滑市長你的看法呢"},{"start":170.209,"end":191.601,"text":"第一個現在目前的這個狀況我剛剛有說明了上禮拜還94現在是102事實上每天變化非常的劇烈所以我們7D3B然後是針對於過去一週的平均的價格然後最後來做相關的核算那大概有兩個基準我們要維持雅齡最低價甚至是要專案"},{"start":192.301,"end":219.895,"text":"的這個部分來平穩我們的國內的油價的市場所以針對於說下一週會不會漲我們要靠近一點我們才比較能觀察出這個趨勢第二點委員剛剛質詢裡面有提到能源的部分要增加這個韌性減少地緣政治的影響總統上任了之後接觸了二次能源轉型不管是多元綠能或是科技的儲能那這個都是我們的努力還有包括深度節能"},{"start":220.535,"end":246.885,"text":"以3月為例的話 事實上我們現在的總用電量還比去年的同期還減少那這個就是因為 農業署的生活節能的那我知道困難非常多啦那我們從那個經濟部的書面報告裡頭我們也看到了就是5月底的調度已經全部準備好了那6月也完成了7成 那你甚至講到了9月9月的傳期都調度了很充足"},{"start":247.665,"end":269.691,"text":"那我在這裡再請教你,像剛才那個林鄭華委員講的國應、國企、國管這個政策有沒有機會天然氣的這一個整套的一個計畫,還有卡著你卡著的這個荷姆茲海峽的兩萬桶那個原油會不會把它拿去當談判的一個籌碼?"},{"start":271.363,"end":287.842,"text":"只要回答我這些問題第一個不論是DES或是FORB都是國際的能源這個貿易市場上面經常用的運輸的方式那這個當然要搭配我們看看所謂的合約的組成跟自己國家的一個狀況那我"},{"start":290.543,"end":309.728,"text":"以中東戰事剛開始為例當時2月28日之後因為整個市場比較大亂所以我們可以從亞洲地區來調貨那這些的調貨它並不是從FLV的這個船隻進來而DES的部分那你從哪邊調我們從東亞的一個市場東亞的一個市場那你這200萬桶的原油有沒有變成是一個談判的一個現貨徵購的一個籌碼"},{"start":321.297,"end":345.236,"text":"200萬桶是指現在還求在波斯灣裡面未通過荷姆茲海峽中油公司所專門的200萬桶的貨輪那現在在停泊之中那中油公司每天都去聯繫船東看看荷姆茲海峽的通行的狀況那一旦荷姆茲海峽情勢緩和可以和平的通過的時候這艘船就可以通過"},{"start":346.497,"end":368.467,"text":"不是他通過了你才可以用這些那國際談判的一個那個慣例的話事實上你迴避我好那不能講也沒有關係啦那個中央董事長你先請回那我請那個我們的主計總長還有我們央行的副總裁我想市長這個"},{"start":371.247,"end":394.827,"text":"過去幾年美國因為大量的開採鹽油所以在這一次的中東戰事裡頭油價沒有受到太大的一個衝擊那其實在這裡是要跟你討論到的就是說我們其實一直就是集中在中東就是我們的鹽油一直集中在中東裡頭採購鹽油"},{"start":398.41,"end":427.509,"text":"那所以就是說只要是中東有戰事的話我們的中油的價格就受到了受到了很大的一個影響反而是亞洲地區因為戰事的關係就是說他其實是分散了那我在這裡就是說經濟部有沒有考慮就是要把台灣的石油進口轉移到美國的一個採購那你剛才有講到了就是說在緊急的狀況其實我們還是有特別的辦法"},{"start":428.55,"end":450.785,"text":"那總統在去年也宣布了就是說台灣將採購更多的美國的天然氣顯然有意擴大了台灣天然氣的一個進口的來源這個是一件好事情那同樣原油呢是不是美國會添購更多的那個台灣會添購更多的美國的石油市長有沒有這樣的一個準備"},{"start":452.15,"end":475.783,"text":"謝謝委員的指導,確實荷姆治海峽的地緣政治的關係相當的敏感那我們近幾年來不管是現在受到中東戰事的影響我們也針對於美國的原油的量的部分也是有在增加那未來多元的能源的來源就是我們未來的方向不管是原油或是天然氣都是如此"},{"start":476.817,"end":477.478,"text":"平穩物價基金其實我們從2022年的那個"},{"start":497.263,"end":511.641,"text":"烏鴉戰爭開始到現在我們看到了歷年歷年就是說整體的一個地緣政治危機帶給台灣往往是物價就是高漲那高漲的時候你石油是馬上看得到了可是"},{"start":512.222,"end":535.296,"text":"如果是葵花油大豆這些大宗物資的話中央政府面對的這些物價的一個問題通常我們給的解方都是有限的所以說在這裡跟央行特別請教有沒有機會因為我一直在講說你這個平穩物價基金你是要成立的你不能老是靠你的一個護稅護稅減稅的一個方式去來解決這些辦法那我想聽副總裁的一個說法"},{"start":543.599,"end":561.566,"text":"報告委員因為所謂的物價平穩基金應該是由行政院來主導對那央行如果有需要的部分我們會再研議吧行政院來主導行政院一定會聽聽央行你有什麼樣的一個建議嗎"},{"start":562.446,"end":585.893,"text":"因為報告委員因為您今天剛扔出這個議題我自己對這個問題我上個上三頁的時候就問了你們總裁啦那你們總裁再跟總裁總裁講答這個問題不關央行的事情央行只管貨幣是嗎如果央行的責任只有這麼簡單的話只是那個機制的本身可能不合適由央行來主導啦好"},{"start":591.809,"end":607.665,"text":"就是再一次跟副總裁再提醒不斷的提醒那個央行是有這樣的一個責任的副總裁你請回我想就是行政院的解方還是從那個烏鵝戰爭那一套留下來的"},{"start":608.686,"end":626.667,"text":"就是持續的護稅的一個減徵在次長我想這個也是讓你提醒你啦倒是主計長這一個減徵都已經很久了可是有沒有平穩地那個物價的功能你自己憑良心講主計長你自己憑良心講已經做了這麼久了"},{"start":628.105,"end":656.704,"text":"以三月來講我們三月的整個物價才1.2所以它整個是影響不大所以真正要看四月那四月整個的部分我們整個的一個主席長我現在在提醒的就是說那如果我們用惡物戰爭在整體它的核心核心的一個CPI這樣子的一個算法來講的話其實在短期內它很快它很快它會超過2.0"},{"start":658.305,"end":665.85,"text":"每個禮拜都在討論每個物價都對於針對物價的一個波動的問題包括你所謂的塑膠袋的問題包括所謂的瀝青的問題這個我們都有研究都有在討論研究的一個解決方法所以我們不會讓它物價的通膨再往上漲"},{"start":684.682,"end":686.329,"text":"原則上是我們會有一些相關穩定的措施來做"},{"start":691.024,"end":713.919,"text":"我每一次都是要再重複一次是我們絕對不要重演2022年不會這個歷史的經驗告訴我們是我跟你講要準備雖然你一直出來信心喊話我還是要再跟你提醒主席長沒有那麼樂觀這是副院長親自召集的物價穩定小組我都親自參加每次都親自參加是我還是覺得沒有那麼樂觀謝謝主席 謝謝大家謝謝賴慧雲"}]}},{"id":"168459","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168459","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5655ee4938da65e1e5feb404bcd86c5837980a177b4730a7aa0fde58f0e31cf2ff2541df1b7df3cd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"10:55:53 - 11:03:41","影片長度":"00:07:48","會議時間":"2026-04-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期教育及文化委員會公聽會（事由：「實驗教育三法修法」公聽會）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-04-13","start_time":"2026-04-13T10:55:53+08:00","end_time":"2026-04-13T11:03:41+08:00","duration":468,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[22],"type":"公聽會","title":"立法院第11屆第5會期教育及文化委員會公聽會（事由：「實驗教育三法修法」公聽會）","id":"公聽會-2026040831","term":11,"sessionPeriod":5},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.320343750000003,"end":13.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.00346875,"end":17.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.36909375,"end":60.10596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.35471875,"end":124.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.61471875000001,"end":172.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.76346875000002,"end":194.16096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.39721875,"end":352.56659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.88721875000005,"end":466.15221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":466.77659375,"end":466.79346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":466.79346875000005,"end":466.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":466.87784375,"end":466.89471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":466.89471875000004,"end":467.97471875}],"whisperx":[{"start":11.712,"end":17.434,"text":"接下来我们邀请陈培余立法委员上台发言请"},{"start":23.41,"end":45.107,"text":"好各位來賓早安也非常先謝謝主席喔特別排今天這場立法院的公辦公聽會我們所有人的發言都會留下公報記錄這件事情非常重要在修法12年之後同時我要再一次公開感謝張亮萬劍次長今天親自出席我認為次長一定非常關心相關的議題喔尤其是次長來自於基層的選區所以我想今天幾個議題呢剛"},{"start":47.469,"end":59.829,"text":"剛剛幾位專家學者的發言我們也都聽到跟我們辦公室有蠻多的交集所以等一下我的發言可能跟各位有一些重疊但我想還是主要是因為來自於我們在第一線所收集到的聲音好 第一個"},{"start":61.431,"end":84.776,"text":"自從修法到現在確實實驗教育三法它滿足了很多學生還有家長對於所謂多元教育或者是教育選擇權的期待跟想像所以確實這十幾年來從所謂體制內到所謂大家認為的體制外的實驗教育人數倍增所以剛剛非常多專家學者也都說了人數的增加確實反映了許多的可能性"},{"start":85.256,"end":104.109,"text":"但也反映了很多第一線的問題必須要透過修法還有地方跟中央教育局處的合作讓學生跟家長可以受到更好的照顧所以第一個我們要談的是光是審議制度我們現在所看見的問題剛很多老師都有說現在的實驗教育三法對於審議委員會的規定"},{"start":106.07,"end":124.645,"text":"明明明文寫著規定要聘請熟悉實驗教育的相關人員擔任委員可是在第一線的操作實務上可能是因為地方局處對於實驗教育的不熟悉或者是對於實驗教育的偏見跟刻板印象常常所請來的人仍然停留在"},{"start":125.806,"end":143.739,"text":"對於傳統教育學校的想像的眼光來看實驗教育的審查所以導致於很多的審議過程當中其實對於實驗教育相對沒有那麼友善再來我要說程序搞得非常冗長很多偏鄉小校在現在少子化的過程當中"},{"start":144.179,"end":171.885,"text":"如果他想要透过实验教育三法转型成实验教育光是前期的评估公听会还有各种层级的审议过程耗时冗长可能长达一到两年对于偏乡小校的转型需求没有办法立即符合其实非常可惜还有就是实验教育的审议制度如何更贴近现场的需求同时又兼顾学生的权益这件事情我认为拿捏非常重要同时如何让熟悉实验教育的人员"},{"start":172.845,"end":193.747,"text":"在審議制度當中可以去落實很多的理想甚至我們認為增加很多實務代表的比例或者是適度的簡化實驗教育的申請流程我認為都是後續修法還有很多行政配套上我們會非常頭痛的地方第二個我要講辦學場地的取得其實剛剛很多老師也有講到目前在相關法規裡面其實都有明文的寫到"},{"start":194.528,"end":220.775,"text":"非常多地方教育局處必須要釋出公共的空間尤其是學校裡面的用地閒置的校地宿舍或者是公立學校的閒置空間公辦實驗教育的辦學者申請或者是租借可是理想的現實完全不是這樣很多實驗教育的辦學者在第一線在申請場地要租借也好就是申請也好常常被用不同的理由拒絕"},{"start":221.235,"end":235.692,"text":"可是相關的程序跟平台沒有公開透明好像就只能靠一些說不出來的理由說不出來的可能性才可以陳租那我們辦公室有接到非常多的陳情我認為地方教育局處在相關法規的情況底下"},{"start":236.172,"end":265.333,"text":"如何真的釋出誠意釋出場地這件事情也是需要教育部予以協助的可是在法規面我們到底還可以怎麼做或在實務面我都認為需要討論第三個其實剛剛很多人也有提到我們之前在教文委員會大修了國教法也大修了學輔法還有性平三法都是這過去三年當中立法院跟整個行政院所發生的事情而這三法不論是性平三法輔導法跟國教法還有特教法的大修都跟實驗教育的學生有關"},{"start":265.973,"end":278.024,"text":"但是我們在修相關法的時候大部分人是遺漏掉實驗教育的學生不論他是個人自學 機構自學 團體自學或是學校裡面的實驗教育因此我要說他可能是資源的問題可能是觀點的問題可能是政策視野的問題所以我要講"},{"start":281.007,"end":307.914,"text":"在特教端 其实很多特教学生他现在的状况不见得是我们过去所认识的特教因为现在特教的样态非常多元而当这些有特教需求的学生进到实验教育里头实验教育的机构跟老师可不可以承接可不可以承担或者是如同刚刚有一位老师所说的这些学生是挂在某个公立学校里头而公立学校有没有把这些特教孩子的需求放在他们心中认为是要主动协助还是认为我只是让他挂学籍就好"},{"start":308.314,"end":335.86,"text":"还有就是在学生辅导法里面我们强调三级辅导机制是这一次学辅法大学的重点但是对于很多实验教育的老师来说他原本对于三级辅导法的三级辅导机制有没有概念或是当他学生遇到身心健康议题的时候他如何寻求协助除了是机构内的协助之外他在地方学辅资中心有没有角色有没有资源可以转介给这些学生这也是我认为很多实验教育机构老师在面对的困境"},{"start":336.54,"end":352.294,"text":"還有就是專輔人員這件事情有沒有機會落到實驗教育裡頭當然在理想上我們希望每一個孩子在身心健康議題的第一天出現狀況的時候都有大人可以接觸他但是實驗教育的現場我們明明看見很多孩子是有需求的"},{"start":352.995,"end":375.43,"text":"但是却可能没有办法被接住所以相关的资源如何转介过去也非常的重要再讲的是性平三法修法的时候我们看到学校现场有很多性平的议题那这些议题在实验教育机构里面我认为也可能是日常但可能资源还没有到位所以不管是通报也好辅导机制也好都没有办法到位情况下我们如何协助实验教育的学生"},{"start":375.99,"end":391.735,"text":"他在特教輔導性品議題上真的法規範也可以協助到他們好 講了這麼多我要說我認為實驗教育的狀況跟這十幾年來的發展已經跟我們當年相差甚遠我想要站出來幫實驗教育的孩子說一段話"},{"start":392.675,"end":417.526,"text":"過去他們被認為是體制外的學生他們是不適應主流的學生他們是在學校適應不良的學生這是十幾年前當現場還有很多專家學者你們當年立促修法立促立專法的時候你們所看到學生的樣態但是十幾年來他其實是家長教育選擇權一個非常重要的出口他也是學生對於自主探索自己定位自己的學習教育發展當中一個很重要的選項"},{"start":418.326,"end":438.364,"text":"這些孩子不應該再是體制外的孩子他就是我們的孩子我要再次強調要拜託教育部他就是我們的孩子他在現行的法規底下他不應該再被視為體制外他不應該視為是額外要給予的東西所以我們剛剛提到的除了實驗教育三法要大修剛剛還有提到原住民教育的部分"},{"start":438.744,"end":465.8,"text":"甚至我們看到偏鄉跟城市的落差我們有看到有資源的孩子跟沒有資源孩子的落差這些我認為是實驗教育三法走了十幾年之後我們必須要公開討論的事情我們希望每一個台灣的孩子在做教育選擇權跟多元教育發展的時候尊重他的主體性讓他的選擇成為一個可以被政府看在眼裡的選擇實驗教育的孩子不是體制外的孩子要拜託未來大家一起努力謝謝好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168458","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168458","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5655ee4938da65e16724735442b141b3e63d9eaeca1783e3aa0fde58f0e31cf294bd1da7f89406e15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉書彬","委員發言時間":"10:48:12 - 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謝謝主席那有請央行副總裁還有經濟部賴次長跟中油的董事長上台"},{"start":21.943,"end":40.536,"text":"好 副總裁根據主計處公布的這個三月的CPI它的年增率僅到1.2%但是我們看到的是它是因為中油在檔還包括了水果物價下降但是總共在IPI的部分以美元計價的部分月增率到4.68%年增率還到8.53%我這次特別注意到中央銀行的報告當中他指出來說他引的這個IEA"},{"start":50.262,"end":69.49,"text":"還有OECD還有INF跟World Bank當中我指出來說這次中東的這個動盪呢比兩次石油危機加上沃爾戰爭的總和都還要嚴峻嘛對不對對好那這次呢我就想說那央行你們特別在後面有講到說會採取的是說對妥適的一個貨幣政策嘛那我就想說那你們的觀察點是在哪裡呢"},{"start":71.035,"end":72.916,"text":"我們基本上還是看我們對那個物價的 國內物價的通貨膨脹的情況而定"},{"start":86.104,"end":90.628,"text":"就只有這樣子通報膨脹在哪個區間哪個數據才會呈現出來嗎我們過去大概都會在2%的時候是我們的一個警戒線CPI是2%的時候對 但是已經有調整過的嘛"},{"start":103.34,"end":118.784,"text":"這是因為你們有這個評議物價機制啦不過你們現在既然不願意看的話我覺得你們應該是尊重還是國際間的這個趨勢嘛對不對其他的央行的趨勢當然整個國際的經濟金融情勢也會影響到整個國際的金融變化和物價變化我們也會當然會關注這個議題的發展"},{"start":121.601,"end":131.244,"text":"好 那我們在下面再請下一句再請的是信基部次長因為我們看到這是中東最大的這個動盪是因為這個進口能源的價格上升當然你採取的啞鈴最低價還包括一些緩漲的這個措施等等但是依然凸顯出我國的能源的依賴度非常高還有我的能源韌性很"},{"start":143.968,"end":147.629,"text":"具體一點是我們對比去年今年的3月跟去年的3月我們節電了1.68%"},{"start":166.397,"end":185.935,"text":"那除此之外這個是深度節能就是我們能源轉型提升韌性的一環另外一個部分非常的重要是多元的綠能老天爺給我們的我們的自給能源假如可以增加的話這樣子是很好的你會具體說有沒有什麼措施什麼之類的比如說我們的離岸風電現在併網數已經達到4.5G還有包括太陽能光電的話已經達到15.6G"},{"start":194.402,"end":218.991,"text":"這些都不需要進口的這是老天爺給予的那節能部分呢?因為有些這個空氣健康聯盟他們講到說我們的節能啊包括能源效率的提升是非常不好的事實上數據啊更顯示了我們針對於老舊的所謂的家電的這個設施汰換的部分大概今年都可以達到我們的目標除此之外 目標是多少?基本上好像是700多萬台"},{"start":221.377,"end":248.965,"text":"那我們分幾年就把這個今年大概是最後一年可以把我們統計的這個老舊的這個家電把它汰換完那除此之外的話最重要的是工業生產的一個部分那工業生產我們結合包括韌性的方案包括對於節能標章的一個補助我們協助我們的所謂的產業界然後針對於他生產的一個熱棒或是他的冷氣的設施來做一些的輔導跟汰換"},{"start":250.966,"end":254.168,"text":"我想這部分 次長你這邊是不是要匯後給我一個報告這樣子好 沒有問題那我們繼續再往下看 再請問一下中油因為這次的中油的部分的油價做二十幾年以稅前批售價的部分來看的話其實沒什麼大變"},{"start":267.176,"end":282.776,"text":"那最重要的變化最重要的就是還是以杜拜以7D3B就是加上布蘭特遊流的方式來進行但是現在中油的進口時有六成來自美國嘛四成來自中東地區那是不是呢如果你用7D3B的話呢這個漲幅是高達65%"},{"start":285.6,"end":301.005,"text":"那如果改革現狀是6W4D的方式呢再漲幅是54%了那這個存在的11%的這種差距是不是就可能可以改變掉那是不是這樣才能改變到成為更真實的去反映成本"},{"start":303.898,"end":324.798,"text":"首先澄清一下這所謂六成西德州原油事實上我們西德州原油買的還是用布蘭特計價所以它還是B並不是西德州原油這第一個澄清第二個就是所謂7D3B或6D4B來講在整個油價公司它其實是算漲幅它不是算那個絕對值"},{"start":326.465,"end":354.742,"text":"那麼當外界呢對於這個技嘉的公司比例上有所存疑那中央公司也答應了在半年內做出這個檢討好 但是這個半年之內我們想要再繼續看下去因為你們的版本當中是以過去是用在以運費啦然後還有匯率啊加油站等營運的這個費用等等是不是可以考要到不同來源地的這個運費啊還有地緣政治波動的保險費跟受店家跟員工薪資影響的成本都會不會算進去"},{"start":355.829,"end":375.44,"text":"這次這個油價檢討的話,我們有這個考慮,把一些以往沒有考慮進去的因素也一起納進來,一起做一個檢討那是不是到時候你們可以把這樣的一個因素放進來,讓本席也知道說你們到時候這半年,事實上半年還是太久了耶是,這部分我們會一起納入檢討"},{"start":376.66,"end":377.34,"text":"昨天看到的是中國提供十大會台措施的出爐"},{"start":393.465,"end":399.487,"text":"這邊包括大概第五項跟第七項、第八項當中有對於說要對台灣的農業產品包括以採取便利或是小微企業開拓大陸市場這些部分要提供一些便利方便但是這邊我們也看到中國曾經有說病蟲害或是註冊的問題對台灣的產品有做禁運的部分"},{"start":415.031,"end":426.756,"text":"經濟部的態度是怎麼樣那如何避免風險尤其是有些預警機制是不是要提出來甚至還有包括我們也看到說過去農業部分有這種好多項的這樣的國家核心關鍵技術他怎麼樣防止他外流"},{"start":428.482,"end":448.571,"text":"去年我們繳出12年來量力的成...積極成長率的成績單今年依照大家的預估也差不多7.6、7.7左右甚至比中國的4.6都還大幅的所以我們針對於五大信賴產業包括協助中小微企業的轉型傳統產業的轉型力主台灣"},{"start":452.173,"end":479.6,"text":"行銷全世界佈局全球這個就是我們的一個方向那至於你剛剛講農業產品的部分那因為那是屬於農業部的一個主管不過基本上我們看到幾個數據來看的話不論是三大的投資方案截到目前為止的話將近有差不多是2.6兆我們預估到明年可能也超過3.6兆元左右所以我們在既有的這個所謂的軌道上面"},{"start":480.18,"end":497.82,"text":"然後來協助我們國內企業的轉型還有包括他AI的運用甚至是對於我們所注意的維生的半導體還有包括AI的這個部分的發展這就是我們現在所做所以你們認為是對中國就不必特別去注意是嗎過去"},{"start":500.765,"end":520.926,"text":"有統計的數字啊但是台灣全世界各國的一個資金離開中國的一個狀況還是幾乎是一個天來勢的一個下降好 這個我就想繼續再問下去沒問題沒問題我們應該要依照我們自己的這個策略跟我們的步伐然後謹慎的一步一步來面對國際的經濟的一個挑戰"},{"start":523.548,"end":530.473,"text":"這也是看到經濟部的態度那我們繼續往下看到在韌性特別預算當中經濟部持續的提供了四項的產業四大措施嘛460億那這邊呢最重要是提升技術能量跟加強海外市場"},{"start":539.119,"end":553.842,"text":"但是呢我們就想問一下呢經濟部你這邊多元市場分散有增加一些比較多的國家的他們這些比例嗎那有沒有新增市場那我看到有那個報導就是他們做調查是說希望說經濟部這邊我國家這邊能夠在新簽訂的雙邊的貿易協定的規劃這樣會對我們的擴展外交市場有大幫助那請問這邊叫經濟部市長你們這邊的回答是怎麼樣"},{"start":564.195,"end":591.788,"text":"好 謝謝委員在我起初的報告裡面提到我們針對於強化海外的佈局的一個市場包括海外的拓銷的部分我們不但是結合了工協會而也給個別的廠商更多的補助讓他們用台灣的方式去 但是我要看效果啊那效果的部分我剛剛已經有提到了不管是我們的經濟成長實質的成長率我們都比過去的還更好"},{"start":592.128,"end":608.739,"text":"那個是有特殊原因我現在大家看一下市長你看一下這邊我們看到的情況是113年的時候美國是排名在出口值的第二個大市場那去年呢2025年的時候美國變成第一大市場那這個部分呢把它越高而且我們順差也變得越高那這邊對於說要去如果用"},{"start":611.161,"end":628.56,"text":"美國用關稅的上面來去做我們的一些協商來去做一些處理的話呢這又變成一個可能是很大的一個部分就是你們這邊其他的部分對東協啦歐洲日本這些部分呢有沒有再去增加它的一種比例因為看起來還是美國最大的一個集中度啊這樣其實對我並不是好事啊"},{"start":629.292,"end":658.122,"text":"那第一個不管是我們的海外的這個貿易中心不管是在波蘭或是日本我們都有設立那另外的話你剛剛講到這個數據因為AI的大幅的成長那當然他的這個部分這也是我們重要的生產的這個外銷的一個來源所以你會看到這個爭比是很大的但是我們在全球佈局上面不管你是你剛剛講的東亞東協甚至是包括菲律賓這些我們經濟部不管是貿易處"},{"start":659.162,"end":673.687,"text":"我們都有很多的一些相關的一些沒有我希望是看到這實際上有分散的效果不然你們當初的這個效果任性的這個條例的效果我們可能沒有達到那最後一部分就在好那這邊我就這樣相關的部分我再請這個請做書面報告因為反映出來一個問題就是說如果要組成一個國家還是說增加美國的部分的話可能是國家隊的意見必須要國家隊是希望政府能幫忙的部分那就請經濟部這邊再給我們後面一個報告好不好"},{"start":687.591,"end":689.135,"text":"我們後續就請經濟部用書面回覆劉淑冰委員好不好 謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"168457","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168457","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5655ee4938da65e1e503335c613609af81f6660fd2e34289291cfc8066c9e4d98a3d5adc657703f85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳俊宇","委員發言時間":"10:45:07 - 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謝謝主席 我們有請我們國安局蔡局長跟海委會的張副主委請國安局長以及海委會副主委副主委早"},{"start":17.46,"end":42.807,"text":"近年來我們看到這個中共不論是在台海或是東海還是南海有透過這個船隻的騷擾周邊海域的一個灰色地帶襲擾的問題那我相信這我們許多委員都一直在關心那他們目前已經從這個零星的偶發事件逐漸轉變成為高度的這種組織化規模化的這種軍事行動那中共試圖在不觸發"},{"start":45.387,"end":63.538,"text":"這個軍事衝突的情況之下,不斷的升級這個侵擾的行為,來試探我們這個防衛的底線那對我們的這個國家安全所產生的威脅,逐漸的升高對此我想針對這個部分,來這個中共的這個海上民兵的部分,來和兩位做討論"},{"start":64.699,"end":89.576,"text":"那過去一段時間中共在這個東海南海展現出他們在海上動員能力的這個提升尤其今年年初這個紐約時報有一篇報導引起大家的注意根據這個內容中共在去年的這個聖誕節還有這個今年的一月分別動員了兩千艘的還有一千四百艘的這個漁船在東海排成巨型的陣列這個隊形長達數百公里"},{"start":93.209,"end":106.925,"text":"這不像是漁業活動的樣態更像是帶有軍事意圖的編隊行動目的可能就是要在演練的海上築成一道具有阻擋效果的這種長城"},{"start":108.206,"end":135.361,"text":"那使得對手在軍事介入的這種行動還有他後勤補給的路線上產生這個必要的障礙那中共發展這個海上民兵行之有年那甚至可能已經參與到對台這個軍演當中在另外的一份這個智庫的報告當中也看到去年這個中共海上民兵的活動數量創下最高的紀錄那顯示他們在發展的這個腳步"},{"start":136.221,"end":163.086,"text":"似乎也沒有減緩的情形因此我想請教局長我們估算目前中共的海上民兵的規模有多大那中共有能力動員的民兵還有他的船隻大概有多少這第一點那另外我們觀察他在平時任務的性質所採取的手段或是部署的安排頻率上有沒有什麼樣的一個轉變的異狀"},{"start":165.402,"end":189.381,"text":"好 那就中共海上民兵的部分它大概在沿海的11個省市都有海上民兵的編制主要都是由中央軍委的國防動員部來進行相關的管理平時由海警來進行指揮 暫時就移交給三大戰區包括北戰、東戰、南戰來進行暫時的指揮這大概它基本的運作機制"},{"start":189.781,"end":213.379,"text":"那在整個相關的活動樣態來講第一個當然就是進行相關海上的徵收那第二部分這海上徵收有時候連外艦通過台海我們都可以看到有中共的民兵漁船在周邊進行相關的一個情資的收集那第二部分就是進行相關的灰色地帶的侵擾那有時候還進行所謂的假棋行動以及利用這些海上的民船"},{"start":214.82,"end":235.294,"text":"偽裝他的身份,甚至有時候來冒充所謂的三無漁船來進行各國海域的侵擾或是在爭議海域裡面來進行侵擾的活動那有時候還會甚至去破壞海底的電纜這樣的一個違法的一個活動這大概是第二個樣態那第三個樣態是他們也會支應軍事上的一個演訓活動那委員剛好提出來確實沒有錯"},{"start":236.255,"end":252.707,"text":"在2024年的聯合歷艦跟2025年的海峽雷霆我們都有看到中共動員到民兵漁船的船隻來參與相關的軍事演訓的活動所以可能未來這種中共民兵漁船在這種支應戰訓上的一個活動會是我們後續觀察的重點"},{"start":256.169,"end":275.127,"text":"這也是國際社會目前比較關注的焦點所以我們在國際情報交流合作也都有在分析這些民兵漁船運用的樣台來做比較在東海台海跟南海地區有沒有什麼共同性跟差異性好那我想我們國安局目前判斷中共的這個海上民兵他的體系"},{"start":276.028,"end":297.39,"text":"抱歉委員我打個岔因為剛剛忘了講數量數量部分大概有幾千艘那委員剛剛在圖上有提到東海調動數千艘漁船形成一個L型陣列那這個議題事實上在上個禮拜的業務報告機密會議當中我們有呃呈現國安局這方面的圖資跟分析那因為今天是公開會議就不適合做細部的討論好"},{"start":298.251,"end":326.374,"text":"他的這個船隻數量應該還是會逐漸的在提升是我們應該有掌握相關資料有,事實上我們相關跟海巡這邊列控的也都有幾千艘好,那另外我們國安局有沒有去判斷說目前中共的這個海上民兵他的體系是否已經成熟了那已經能夠隨時轉換為軍事資源的角色也可以配合海警海軍來執行相關的任務嗎"},{"start":327.294,"end":352.327,"text":"對,因為他的海上民兵已經變成是中共三合一的海上的兵力了指的是海軍、海警跟海上民兵那剛剛也跟委員報告過因為他的指揮體系裡面是由中央軍委的國防動員部來指導那平時又由海警來指揮那暫時交由各戰區來進行指揮那平時又透過這些戰訓活動來進行海軍、海警跟民兵漁船的相關的一個演練"},{"start":352.827,"end":370.905,"text":"所以它確實體系已經變得越來越完整那我們剛才也討論到它的數量越來越多的情況之下它侵擾的可能不只是台海而是周邊的東海、南海海域也都變成是大家關注的焦點也對於區域的和平穩定造成一個很重大的危害好那我想現在這個中共的海上民兵也不再是單純的這個"},{"start":372.65,"end":392.822,"text":"它可能也配備有加固的船體,也有可能有發射系統,甚至還有北斗衛星還有通訊系統的專業船隻那倘若又配合使用隱藏匿跡的手段,包括頻繁的關閉AIS系統或是更換呼號等等"},{"start":393.582,"end":417.365,"text":"這對於我們海巡在第一線這個監偵和辨識目標的工作上可能也會造成這個相當程度的負擔那這個部分我想請教副主委面對我們規模這麼龐大而且越來越專業化的這個海上民兵的船隻我們海巡目前在應處的裝備和對策上我們要如何來提升我們的反制能力"},{"start":418.756,"end":433.477,"text":"這邊特別跟委員包括那對於中共的海上民兵船我們是全部有列管的那常態性在從112年到現在曾經出現過在台灣周邊水域的民運船大概有一百多艘那這些我們都有列管"},{"start":433.977,"end":463.426,"text":"那剛剛蔡局長特別提到那全部的這個中東大陸的海警船大概有數千艘之多那他是有能力來做從事於剛剛這個蔡局長特別提到的部分那另外對於這個在周邊海域活動的漁船我們平常就是對越界漁船我們有採取六大的手段包括驅離扣壓然後這個留置調查等等的這些措施那有效的控管相關在台灣周邊越界的漁船的"},{"start":467.928,"end":492.201,"text":"像我們的這個反制能力我想在夜間還有這個海象比較惡劣的情況之下我們有沒有比較這個高等級的一個反制作用這邊跟委員報告那其實我們雷達這也取決於雷達的徵收範圍另外我們艦船艇上面也有高規格的這些徵收設備那對於海上的目標只要是在徵收範圍裡面的我們是可以全部的管控"},{"start":493.955,"end":518.822,"text":"那因為他不是這個民船也不是這個軍艦在海上可能也會負責做干擾的動作不會主動的來做攻擊這對我們在這個交戰或執行的這個依據上會產生什麼樣的一個困難跟委員報告 目前還沒有發現主動攻擊我們漁船的這部分倒是海警船會登檢我們的漁船 這曾經發生過"},{"start":520.117,"end":538.386,"text":"登檢我們的漁船對 海警船那我們要怎麼反制那這個部分我們第一個時間是那平常時候我們會通知漁船碰到海警船登檢的時候那拒絕他登檢然後趕快往台灣的方向開那第二個部分就是他會通知我們海警署那我們海警署在航的艦艇會趨權趕往去做介護"},{"start":540.58,"end":566.145,"text":"支援就對了是那對於這個海上民兵的這種提前預警他在這個出動前有沒有什麼樣的一個徵後或是前置作業能夠讓我們再快速精準的掌握他們的意圖那這部分是不是除了鄰近的這些有盟國家即時交換情資甚至我們再進一步主動公開偵測的數據和記錄給其他有盟國家一起來這個聯訪有沒有可能"},{"start":567.129,"end":581.286,"text":"根本包括 那其實我們跟有門國家包括我們的國內的情治單位我們的消息是非常互通 非常通暢的所以這部分我們互相提醒那另外有門部分會根據證書的範圍會通知我們這邊來做適度的對應跟處理"},{"start":584.923,"end":603.215,"text":"好,那從剛剛的這個討論我們可以看出來,中共對於這個海上民兵的發展,已經逐步轉型為極具戰略意義的這種侵擾手段。它在這個整體規模和組織化的這種程度,以及和正規軍的這種協同能力,都在不斷的提升當中。"},{"start":604.096,"end":629.65,"text":"那這不但會影響周邊海域的一個相關國家的安全態勢也對於我方不論在平時或是暫時的這種判斷執行執法上會帶來更多的這種壓力那面對這樣的這種挑戰我們除了要提升我們的這個硬體裝備更需要建立清除一致的一個硬處原則才能在這個不升高衝突的這種前提之下有效來防"},{"start":630.69,"end":658.078,"text":"守住我們這個海上的安全和國家的利益那這部分我想還是請我們的國安局還有我們的這個我們張副主委這邊齁能夠和友盟的合作緊密的交換請知讓我們在相關單位能夠及時的應處的這種情況之下來降低海上的這個民兵所帶來對我們國家的安全的一種威脅是 好 謝威以上 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168463","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168463","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5655ee4938da65e10258dc885b5dea1881f6660fd2e34289aa0fde58f0e31cf214d5e53a528fd4095ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃仁","委員發言時間":"11:07:26 - 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我們就討論針對政協會陸委會在今天特別召開了一個記者會強調將採取必要作為守護中華民國守護台灣的自由民主請問一下陸委會所謂的必要作為是什麼那政協會後有發現鄭主席有任何進行違法亂紀的施政嗎"},{"start":50.748,"end":77.245,"text":"你說明一下我們所說的必要作為其實是針對鄭主席那天他在正席會的時候所提出來的也就是說他要建立一個兩岸的和平框架要建立 要把這個兩岸和平的制度化然後讓這個成為一個不可逆的過程"},{"start":79.195,"end":102.7,"text":"那這些訴求在政府方面看來它很可能已經觸及到我們兩岸關係條例的一些規定也就是說如果沒有政府授權的話任何機關團體不得和對岸涉及政治性內容的合作行為"},{"start":104.045,"end":130.727,"text":"然後如果沒有政府授權的話也不得簽署涉及公權力或者和政治議題有關的協議那因為我們並不確定鄭主席他講這些話到底只是單方的意願表達還是實質上會有一些什麼作為所以我們這天在新聞稿裡面講的是如果"},{"start":136.024,"end":141.509,"text":"這個國民黨方面他觸及到兩岸關係條例的一些"},{"start":143.137,"end":165.891,"text":"禁地的話所以政府就會採取必要的措施但是目前看起來目前看起來鄭主席講的抱歉我先打斷你的話我想是你們陸委會先劃靶再來設建的那我想今天我們講一個很實際的畫面我們兩岸是不是要和平當然要和平"},{"start":166.431,"end":189.114,"text":"我們不要跟以色列跟烏克蘭一樣的一個角色台灣是需要什麼是一個共榮共和共平和平的一個制度裡面來生活下去的我們不挑釁也不挑戰那當然我們也希望對岸對我們台灣也是一個善意和平共"},{"start":189.795,"end":211.729,"text":"共處的一個兩國之間的一個相處所以本席看到民進黨在政府對於維護兩岸的和平毫無進步毫無作為但又見不得其他人促進兩岸和平只好對台灣人民進行了任職作戰那用暗示的方式"},{"start":212.509,"end":238.229,"text":"抹紅扣帽子這麼多年來始終拿不出國民黨賣台的證據倒是民進黨的核心出了不少的共諜上次我們在這個地方也提出很多共諜案的民進黨的這一些黨員所以副主委根據陸委會的新聞告國共兩黨主席會面將兩岸的關係國共化一中框架化"},{"start":238.829,"end":267.779,"text":"那請問一下ECFA是不是在一中政治前提下談的你來回答我這個問題ECFA就是兩岸之間的關於經貿方面的協議在我方的認知ECFA的談判跟什麼一中立場或九二共識是沒有關係的怎麼會沒有關係但是在中共他現在是咬定說他現在是咬定說跟在九二共識下才有怎麼會你副主委會講這種話呢既然我現在要講一句話"},{"start":268.539,"end":288.627,"text":"第二陸委會應該在政治歷史當年兩岸如果沒有共同的政治基礎根本就不可能簽署ECFA那這個政治基礎在大陸叫做一中原則在台灣是叫做一中各表這就是一個政治基礎這也是政治的前提啊"},{"start":289.187,"end":313.888,"text":"那陸委會是不是認為只要在大陸認為一中架構下兩岸互動就是將兩岸關係一中化如果這樣的話是不是只要涉及中共領導人的會面就構成國共化與一中化就按照陸委會的邏輯民進黨從蔡英文到賴清德持續適用的F法"},{"start":314.588,"end":341.582,"text":"是否也是在原系一中的框架那現在的事實就是民進黨執政在在野黨的兩套標準一邊罵一邊享受既然X法可以在一中正直的前提下被視為禁貿那為何民間與政黨交流就一定被定為一中框架內會要不要建議總統和行政院就立即的終止X法"},{"start":342.162,"end":370.256,"text":"不管陸委會打不打算建議即將終止ECFAECFA在民進黨執政那已延續了十年了代表民進黨政府默認該框架在特定情況下可享受這樣的一個邏輯和民進黨對國人的認知作戰模式民進黨就是台灣最大的賣台的一個集團所以你要解釋ECFA"},{"start":371.799,"end":376.675,"text":"是經貿的框架還是在意義中的框架下你來回答我這個問題"},{"start":377.935,"end":402.619,"text":"在我們政府認為ECFA當初是純粹談經貿議題但是中共的解釋是說是我們在一中的框架之下所以我們才給你ECFA才給你什麼34項農產品的免關稅等等然後只要你一偏離我就立刻把你取消所以剛剛委員講的都是對方的立場這個和台灣的立場是不同的"},{"start":402.619,"end":419.416,"text":"但是你們在賴政府在英文這個賴政府已經延續了十年啊到至今都在延續十年啊如果這樣的話如果這個剛剛你所說明的那你就宣布嘛終止ECFA"},{"start":420.698,"end":439.473,"text":"忠實ECFA進行我們現在的這個ECFA的會議嘛委員我跟您報告在我們看起來ECFA跟一中框架一中前提是沒有關係的所以我們沒有我們沒有必要去宣布什麼廢止反而但是他們認為這個是很有關係的他們認為這個是前提所以他們常常找麻煩"},{"start":444.697,"end":450.727,"text":"好不好 不要再說謊了不要再 不要再對進行人民的認知作善不要再說謊好不好 請回那有請國安局"},{"start":462.199,"end":483.738,"text":"好 謝主席 歡迎回頭好 主席好 本席注意到國安局近年來向中共的政經情勢原判都指出中共正面臨國內外壓力政治風險上升的一個狀況以官民矛盾不斷的一個加劇那所以我們都知道一個極權政權"},{"start":485.76,"end":498.216,"text":"最主要的工作之一就是依賴高經濟發展的維持掙錢的一個合法性在國安局看來中共似乎浮現治理的一個危機那局長認為對我們這個是正面的訊息還是一個機會"},{"start":504.873,"end":518.408,"text":"跟委員做個說明跟報告確實委員引用的數據我們在上個禮拜的業務報告有特別去提醒中國大陸目前正面臨到一些治理的風險不管是在政治面進行一些黨政要員的調查、訴談"},{"start":519.89,"end":547.009,"text":"或是在社會面那民眾因為經濟的下滑而有一些對現狀的不滿以及在經濟的數據面即使中共的經濟數據它經過美化但是我們收整各方面的資料跟評估可以發現到它現在經濟動能真的是在弱化包括國內的消費力還有外資的投資的狀況確實是處在比較低檔的狀況那就國安局的角度那我們覺得應該在跟貴院的議務報告當中把這樣的一個趨勢做一個呈現那也做一個警示"},{"start":547.884,"end":571.652,"text":"所以本身認為在其實中共面臨的內外的壓力對台灣而言反而是更危險國際政治上有一個非常典型的一個理論那叫做轉移性的一個衝突那意思是當一個國家政府或領導人面臨嚴重的國內的困境的話那政權穩定受到威脅的時候他們可能會"},{"start":572.492,"end":589.309,"text":"故意挑起或升起其他國家的外部的一個衝擊所以以轉移國內民眾的注意力那並製造這個團結的效應所以這是一個政治的一個求生的策略那最近中共經濟的這個"},{"start":592.264,"end":616.238,"text":"在近年來的一個經濟的下行下滑房地產與地方債權的問題嚴重外部又面臨美中競爭和科技封鎖的壓力這種情況中共反而更可能強化民族主義動員換句話說台灣的風險是不是下降是不是不穩定性的一個既然都會上升"},{"start":617.395,"end":644.651,"text":"對 謝委員剛剛的一個分析跟提醒那確實我們在注意中共的內部風險我們比較關注的也是這些議題會不會外溢到對台海安全有產生一些影響跟衝擊那尤其中共在歷史上也確實曾經在內部發生政治經濟社會不穩定的時候對外用兵這包括到有1969年的中俄邊界衝突就是在文革之後那1979年的中越邊界衝突又是在四個電現代化失敗之後"},{"start":645.091,"end":672.689,"text":"所以對於他現在內部的這種情勢那會不會有委員所提到的民族主義的操作我們會持續的注意那也是在上禮拜報告的時候我們特別去注意到中共的軍文關係因為這一次的大批的整肅涉及到很多上將33個員額現在只有4位上將在位那這樣子的一個軍文關係會不會有台海安全的意涵包括有些年輕的將領會不會為了要表示效忠而有在台海的相關演訓活動有更冒進的作為"},{"start":675.111,"end":692.75,"text":"好,在最後請問一下局長,國安局有沒有設定具體的一個風險的一個標準型,例如當中共經濟壓力到達什麼樣的一個程度,它會採取什麼樣的一個程度,在對軍事的行動,有沒有?"},{"start":692.97,"end":722.29,"text":"有 這部分我們確實有一個還蠻複雜的一個風險評估指標那不只是中共內部的政治經濟社會的形態還有包括他的對外關係以及他涉台政策的相關的一個動向還有各種的軍事活動以及在台海的複合式威脅的侵擾那我們有一個加總的一個分析的一個指標那來當成我們的一個風險判斷的模型那這部分假如委員有興趣對我們私下再跟委員做一些細部的說明好 謝謝好 謝謝委員指教"},{"start":723.436,"end":723.457,"text":"好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168475","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168475","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5655ee4938da65e17be1526c7c61d45de63d9eaeca1783e3aa0fde58f0e31cf20aec3227c6a1e6575ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅明才","委員發言時間":"11:22:59 - 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謝謝最近大家都很關心首先就是問一下是國安會副主委"},{"start":30.844,"end":43.719,"text":"我剛剛聽你講的有幾個地方好像還蠻精彩的請問一下高副主委還有相關的官員現在就是萬物飆漲請問副主委現在有什麼美漲"},{"start":50.375,"end":73.514,"text":"我覺得因為這個是世界各國都面對的問題因為石原油跟天然氣是所有產品生產的重要的原物料之一那它當然它價格上漲一定會導致幾乎所有產品都會影響到它的所以都一直漲不見得因為就台灣來說其實我們採取的"},{"start":78.678,"end":100.992,"text":"那個油價的這個雙平穩的制度包括我們啞鈴最低價我們設法把外在的衝擊儘量就是減輕對國內相關的油氣價格的一些漲幅的變動其實我是一個簡單的問題啦因為在民間如果年輕人對答講話A跟B講說哇現在萬物飆漲B會回答就是說有一個東西沒漲"},{"start":109.022,"end":130.558,"text":"你猜猜該是什麼兩個字叫做薪水所以這個民間的新生你剛講那麼多我們在聽啊而且你長你也可以講啊台積電也長啊台積電長我覺得是你也很開心嘛去年台積電的那個腳褲這個是多少"},{"start":133.486,"end":148.137,"text":"大概兩三百億那台積電放到現在已經漲到快兩千塊會不會賣基本上台積電是我們國發基金的核心持股所以咧不會釋出一張都不會賣"},{"start":151.958,"end":178.817,"text":"基本上我們最近幾年都一張都沒有賣那明年會不會賣?今年會不會賣?我們沒有,我們短期沒有釋出的計畫短期是指三天還是五天?近期近期是指一個月還是兩個月?我覺得我們的事股我們有國發經濟有事股的政策跟原則其實為什麼高的時候你們不要事股咧?"},{"start":180.132,"end":196.52,"text":"我覺得台積電是台灣的在半導體裡面因為非常重要的一個廠商然後半導體也是台灣在全球的供應鏈裡面占有非常關鍵的地位好 2000塊嘛 你的成本是多少"},{"start":198.951,"end":221.457,"text":"應該現在如果加上配股配息應該是幾乎零成本零成本哇 你看這塊多肥啊這樣子喔國家有難的時候年輕人現在很辛苦萬屋飆漲口袋裡沒什麼錢上次普發現金一萬你有沒有領到我想每個人都有領到大概百分之九十八現場有沒有人沒領到請舉手"},{"start":223.462,"end":244.587,"text":"全部都領了 這個政策很好 大家領了很開心所以現在遇到的問題就是石油飆漲 影響到萬物起漲那本席有提一個案 就是像韓國現在也在對石油的幫忙 補助"},{"start":246.867,"end":263.174,"text":"這個津貼啦 叫石油津貼我現在已經在提案了獲得大多數委員沒有個人反對啊我現在就要連署了可是他們就說錢那怎麼辦咧我大概還是一個就是大概一萬塊左右"},{"start":263.914,"end":275.38,"text":"那理由就是因為網路飆漲連手搖飲也開始漲滷肉飯 雞腿飯 蜘蛛餐你有沒有去吃蜘蛛餐我那一句他說親愛的顧客從即日開始每樣都漲十塊錢"},{"start":281.541,"end":296.445,"text":"所以因為這個石油漲錯不在民眾所以我們要幫助民眾特別是幫助年輕人所以再來一次今年就是石油津貼每一個人石油津貼一萬塊你贊不贊成"},{"start":299.528,"end":324.486,"text":"我想要跟委員報告我們今年的第一季的CPI只有1.23其實遠較於我們預估的1.38為低所以我想要糾正一次台灣並不是萬物齊掌這個事實我從CPI當然我覺得委員你說的外食費這一塊的確是比我們的CPI來得高可是我記得3月也降到3%以下了對不對"},{"start":328.768,"end":344.093,"text":"所以的確我們有一些民眾的那些小吃某個程度上的反應不見得是這次的美意戰爭包括我們其實我們台灣某個程度確保還有一些基本工資調升的問題你要講就是有些都沒講"},{"start":348.314,"end":375.527,"text":"但是現在民眾的反應就是那麼強烈那第二個我要另外這個時間關係我要問你的是就是說你剛剛講台積電兩千塊你們不會賣嘛短期不會賣那請問現在兩千塊你會不會買基本上我們是我們股票信託我們是不能進出的不是 你會不會再買啦就是說我以我現在以政務官的我們是沒有辦法購買單一的這些股票所以你不會再買台積電了"},{"start":377.723,"end":400.209,"text":"就是 我想 我不能買 目前我無法好 你不能買 就是不買就對了那你現在那個台積電部門你手上的持股價值總共多少市值 手上6.5%嘛你這樣算起來 你們手上持有的台積電市值是多少好幾兆吧好幾兆 別找啊 你說幾兆啊回答你 你在跑啊幾兆國化基金"},{"start":403.837,"end":415.224,"text":"就是我們現在有6.5%的台積電的持股市值多少我想我要查一下你要查 趕快查一下你旁邊查完這個回答數字下一位請經濟部那未來的 你是次長那次長 我一直想說你是快升部長了做得好就有機會升部長那現在萬物起漲 電會不會漲"},{"start":433.362,"end":458.61,"text":"我們在3月27號電價審議委員會已經決議今年上半年的電價不調整上半年不調整 那就7月開始就會調了根據電價審議委員的一個判斷跟他的評估這些狀況都是短期的現象的話因為油價上上下下油價電你先hold住嘛水會不會漲我們現在沒有這個計畫"},{"start":459.986,"end":478.768,"text":"水不會漲喔油電水氣天然氣漲了沒天然氣的話我們每個月檢討因為天然氣的一個定價那個瓦斯桶小吃店都是Gas LPG LPG有沒有漲沒有調整今天燒肉不好叫"},{"start":480.578,"end":492.484,"text":"因為每個人都想說 哇 都很忙啊 叫不到工送啊以前要送 哇 A不送 B就送現在又有點 嘶 就是啊 我沒錢啦 沒錢啦會不會有這樣的情況出現"},{"start":497.444,"end":510.539,"text":"統裝瓦斯,那夠用就好啦,事實上你家裡面儲存的太多,事實上也造成一些管理上面或是安全上的問題物價你們還是要看住啦,好不好,謝謝另外請那個央行好了"},{"start":512.998,"end":530.935,"text":"布總裁你好我很好現在那個全世界有經過伊朗現在都說要收那個虛擬貨幣比特幣央行現在計畫推出了央行的數字貨幣你們以後最大的一顆是價值大概多少錢"},{"start":533.362,"end":551.935,"text":"我們目前只是在研議研議的時候今年沒有推出就是下半年下半年不推出就是明年明年你說還沒好 那後年請問你比特幣現在一顆多少錢"},{"start":553.462,"end":575.729,"text":"我印象中應該是六七萬了吧六七萬 之前漲到十二萬那以後推出的央行的數字貨幣最大的一顆要價值大概多少錢報告委員 因為這個我們內部我們並沒有對外公布所以我也不方便你對外不要公布啊 你在立法院公布就好了"},{"start":577.059,"end":593.072,"text":"因為我們現在只是在研議我們並沒有對外研議中最大顆一顆大概是價值多少錢我們那個計價的定位其實是要思考的政府在推動的是穩定幣的問題現在有四家金控準備要介入虛擬貨幣交易所"},{"start":604.205,"end":624.897,"text":"那是虛擬貨幣交易但是跟穩定幣還是有一點距離你虛擬貨幣交易所你就要有東西啊如果央行推出的話就很多人會下去買啊而且你如果央行趕快推出了以後你再像中東這個事以後就用中華民國央行發行的數字貨幣大家都願意接受啊"},{"start":626.124,"end":648.934,"text":"報告委員因為新台幣不是一個因為現在有人不接受美金啊那你要現在台幣越來越強啊而且台幣我們現在那個上個月就是出口的部分也成長很多啊表示台灣越來越強啊而且兩岸政習會之後也變得比較感覺和平多啊兩岸只要和平那台灣"},{"start":650.407,"end":663.591,"text":"那個中華民國發的央行的數字貨幣那一顆可能都會超過比特幣啊趕快發好不好謝謝委員的指示好 現在那個主計 主計處是 委員這個主委長是剛本席講到那個就是齁現在民眾苦哈哈啦你來算一下"},{"start":677.574,"end":696.663,"text":"如果每一個人來發一萬塊的石油津貼韓國瑜發了發一萬塊的石油津貼大概要準備多少錢就跟現金一樣要簽兩千三百六十兩千三百六十億再一次啦拜託啦"},{"start":699.537,"end":716.26,"text":"今年要賣多少 今年很多人要賣多少啊我們先從動漲開始動漲如何 這樣就免得再發一些發放的成本你看看喔 上次那個不怕現金一萬塊對整個經濟的發展有了多少的幫助"},{"start":719.773,"end":733.644,"text":"2360億整個差不多你有乘數效應啊出去那個外面那個我看一些小吃攤啊什麼小朋友那個一點多0.415好了你就0.415再發一次就有0.415啊"},{"start":743.154,"end":759.501,"text":"努力想一下啦 我現在已經開始在連署了其實目前還沒有人反對的大家都贊成 所以你們要準備一下 2000多也不多嘛是不是很多嗎這個金額會不會很大很大 那個1.25兆大不大"},{"start":762.976,"end":779.69,"text":"1.25兆是國防它是我們的一個天頓那對我們來講是多重要所以我上次又問那個國防部長我說你不要說1.25兆很重要你講3兆、5兆你如果掛保證我們就叫美國好大賣兆啊給我們保好掉啊所以你說那個天頓1.25兆到底有沒有效"},{"start":789.261,"end":815.382,"text":"不是 這個要機器來了 用了才知道有沒有笑 這我們現在來講好啦 我要陪過今天來就是那個一萬塊每一個人的石油津貼你那邊也開始同步進行一下因為我們上次發過了這一次發的成本就會很低因為有一次經驗嘛一而再 第二次來的話就會更自在好不好 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11:35:17","影片長度":"00:08:11","會議時間":"2026-04-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查委員賴瑞隆等20人擬具「貪污治罪條例第十二條條文修正草案」案等6案。\n二、繼續併案審查委員洪孟楷等21人擬具「中華民國刑法第八十三條條文修正草案」案等29案。\n三、併案審查委員黃捷等19人擬具「中華民國刑法施行法增訂第八條之三條文草案」案等16案。\n四、併案審查委員王育敏等18人擬具「民法第一百九十七條條文修正草案」案等3案。\n【開會事由二至四僅進行詢答】\n【詳見議事日程】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-04-13","start_time":"2026-04-13T11:27:06+08:00","end_time":"2026-04-13T11:35:17+08:00","duration":491,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":5,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-5-36-6"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.30096875,"end":0.8240937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.08846875,"end":15.285968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.74971875,"end":97.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.97159375000001,"end":110.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.10159375,"end":125.53034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.24909375,"end":116.75534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.53034375000001,"end":138.74346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.34721875,"end":136.71846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.59596875,"end":145.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.02096875,"end":232.23096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.33221875,"end":252.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.68346875,"end":271.70159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.20784375,"end":316.15034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":316.84221875000003,"end":325.04346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.36409375,"end":362.55659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.31596875,"end":385.47284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.08034375,"end":458.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":418.85159375,"end":419.05409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":458.77784375000005,"end":486.43596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":486.43596875000003,"end":486.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":486.80721875,"end":486.82409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":486.89159375,"end":489.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":490.67159375000006,"end":491.70096875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.376,"end":10.622,"text":"有請馮陳次長請馮次長"},{"start":18.156,"end":31.505,"text":"次長早安我想先跟您說明一下我從2022年就持續關注未成年性侵的追溯期修法你可以看到我這邊提供的記者會、公聽會之外我2023年也對我們陳建仁院長還有當時法務部部長總質詢"},{"start":40.971,"end":58.97,"text":"請他們能夠啟動修法的工程我自己在2024年也提出我的修法版本所以我今天是蠻肯定行政院通過法務部的刑法80條的修正草案覺得這是一個被害人保護的開始"},{"start":60.231,"end":80.086,"text":"可是今天跟您直訊其實是想跟您提被害人保護除了這一步之外有更多的配套要努力我想這邊我自己比較關注的就是要努力的部分先跟您討論一下犯罪被害人權益保障法目前是重傷補償金是80萬元到160萬元"},{"start":84.169,"end":93.814,"text":"縣侵害補償金是10萬元到40萬元那想請問次長您覺得這中間的落實高達70萬到120萬這樣子合理嗎"},{"start":115.157,"end":144.56,"text":"是跟委員講我們這個犯罪被害人的部分這個草案好像在預告中所以我們在相關上的一個部分我們會針對大家的一個意見再來做一個判斷那我想那您次長您個人覺得這個差距性侵害到底是不是一個重傷害他為什麼跟重傷的補償金高達70萬到120萬的差距這個確實是說如果對性侵害的一個補償金的這個部分上是可以有不同的一個"},{"start":145.3,"end":173.181,"text":"因為性侵害事實上在心理生理上據說有各種的研究它其實是個嚴重的傷害我們知道刑法的重傷其實第六條有這個空間就是身體或健康前面講的比較是具體的就是說肢體器官等等但是第六條其實是有留下這個空間那我這邊給您看一個報導者的深入報導"},{"start":174.202,"end":196.039,"text":"就是也是童年時期遭遇性侵的那他會出現驚恐、易怒、自言自語及反覆思考死亡等嚴重創傷那這是我們所看到的其實如果用刑法第十條重傷來講的話那他事實上是符合的那甚至有些可能是很難治癒的傷害"},{"start":198.921,"end":217.331,"text":"這邊也想跟次長講未成年性侵案很多都是發生在國家機構裡面以我最近關切的不管是國小棒球教練的性侵案最近2026年的去年我有參與處理陳情案的國立戲曲學院的郎師性侵案"},{"start":217.911,"end":231.448,"text":"這些都是一對多還有國中資優班的2022年的還有南投俄紹所以我認為呢國家有責任為受害者做更多這句話次長應該可以認同吧可以認同好"},{"start":232.91,"end":251.504,"text":"那我想跟您提一下其他國家的例子以紐西蘭為例他們把性犯罪跟重傷害一視同仁國家就提供一樣高額的補償金你看紐西蘭2001年的這個意外傷害補償法就等於是我們的這個相關的法那它"},{"start":252.785,"end":270.43,"text":"最後這個定義這是我們辦公室自己從紐西蘭的據說立法院相關的資訊找出來的個人傷害就包含生理損傷與因性暴力而生的心理損傷那一次性補償金高達最高可達新台幣190萬"},{"start":272.67,"end":296.761,"text":"我想這個是紐西蘭的部分除了這個之外紐西蘭他們也涵蓋多方面我們剛講的是金額譬如說他的一次性補償金之外如果是職業有相關影響的話那還有每週獲得一些補償金職業復原計劃等如果是諮商服務的話特別提供給性侵害的受害者"},{"start":297.441,"end":315.715,"text":"就是國家會給付部分的資商費就是我們剛剛看到的一次補償金之外有些資商服務可能會高達好多年那國家也會部分給付那我想這個部分都是我們值得學習的那不是只有紐西蘭"},{"start":316.892,"end":335.761,"text":"我這裡還找了荷蘭跟澳洲荷蘭也針對心理創傷賠償最高可達新台幣130萬那你當然說荷蘭可能就是生活費用的比數是比較高的但是換算為就是就薪水各方面來講的話台灣還是低非常的多"},{"start":336.641,"end":361.281,"text":"那澳洲的話更高他的國家補償計畫就是針對就是兒少性侵案高達320萬因為在兒少的時候受傷的話其實對終身的影響更大那還有320萬台幣之外還有心理諮商跟資源服務那今年我跟在場的張雅玲委員我們有去拜訪這個皇家調查委員會後來"},{"start":363.523,"end":384.761,"text":"幫忙執行的那個教會機構他們有告訴我們就是他們所做的這方面是如何的就是希望能夠以受害者為中心那我想今天我的要求很簡單是不是可以去嚴寧提高好嗎就是一個月內可不可以給本席相關的報告"},{"start":387.282,"end":406.145,"text":"先要跟委員 先謝謝委員因為您長時期對於我們這樣的一個兒少的保護事實上本部隊委員這樣的一個關注我們也都很重視事實上您剛剛有提到很多的一些案件其實在我們看來我們也是覺得說"},{"start":407.166,"end":419,"text":"檢察官的角度 像台中的性侵害的狀況我們也都是要求要盡速 盡嚴的去處理事實上這個案件後來也是判了非常重在很多次這樣的狀況有期徒刑加起來是400多年"},{"start":425.848,"end":440.8,"text":"那我們在針對說這樣的一個案子上面我們都會要求檢察官在對於犯罪犯罪人這個的部分要嚴加這個禁訴禁言的處理對於犯罪被害人的這個部分上我們也一定要盡力的去保護他"},{"start":441.46,"end":459.017,"text":"委員剛剛提到的這一個有關於說重傷跟這個性侵害心理傷痛其實我想被性侵害而造的這種心理傷痛這可能是真的是非常的大家都知道那個是非常的嚴重很痛苦的這部分金額的部分我們會回去再做一個妥適上的一個研究再跟委員這邊做報告好嗎"},{"start":459.457,"end":486.099,"text":"那我想再補充一下就是整體的性侵害性暴力的傷害都應該要比現在得到的補償更高那針對兒少的話我們剛剛前幾位都有講到平均二十幾年才說的出口那二十幾年其實心理上的傷害是蠻大的好嗎那所以請就是法務部一個月內給我相關的報告那你們正好正在預告中我想這是一個很好的一個修正補充的時期可以嗎是"},{"start":487.06,"end":487.08,"text":"好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168473","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168473","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5655ee4938da65e1f3319f33d7b2cf2137980a177b4730a7aa0fde58f0e31cf2aa0123905ad953be5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳沛憶","委員發言時間":"11:24:51 - 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高中又一組所以其實同一個機構 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以及現在能不能去處理到我本來你本來提修法是因為解決現狀這些問題嗎那現在如果暫時沒有要修的話那這些問題要怎麼處理"},{"start":350.628,"end":365.188,"text":"這個修法已經醞釀了一段時間我們之前也因為參考過機關跟一些工協會比如說營建工會等等這些的意見所以提出預告"},{"start":365.99,"end":380.489,"text":"預告之後會有一些不同意見那大致上已經有收斂所以我們才準備要送行政院但是後來又出現了一些媒體的意見所以我們認為我們需要多思考"},{"start":381.05,"end":404.965,"text":"所以我們會打算在更進一步的了解機關跟相關的意見之後會再進行預告所以這個還持續在推動當中所以最快應該是今年年底之前能夠重新預告那在此之前我們會把所有各界質疑的一一來克服一一再來思考那麼的確是需要修改的就修改"},{"start":405.345,"end":433.593,"text":"如果說因為這個修改如果導致其他的相關的問題出來那我們會進一步來考量就不去動相關的條文來主委 我跟你分享啦當然這是我們的講法就是說到底問題卡在哪裡當然最大最大的這個爭點一定是說所謂的本來要三家那可能未來都類似採最有利標這個狀況那因為三家坦白講對辦這個採購的購入來講它某種程度上是一種保障那如果未來如果假設修好方向一樣是往這個"},{"start":434.933,"end":455.119,"text":"單一一家投標就可以的話我覺得對採購的公務員來講就對這些承辦人啦這種裁量的這種權利在他手上那未來如果發生爭議他一定會有法律風險我們這裡面有很多前提就是說你當你這個機關預算通過之後就必須對他公告相關預算內容就知道了"},{"start":455.479,"end":473.869,"text":"那政府採購在政府採購網上面都有都有公告那現在也是電子領標電子投標然後希望等標期長希望預告期長在這些前提之下呢那麼回到這個決標的三家改成一家才有這樣的這個修法"},{"start":474.449,"end":493.321,"text":"而且呢我們現在第二次開標第二次招標的事就第一次流標第二次第二次就不限三家也是在進行啦就是有一些配套在進行但是已經被外界誤解了那我跟委員報告越是巨額採購那個軌道啦重大工程動輒幾百億千億的能投標的"},{"start":494.461,"end":507.418,"text":"廠商不多嘛對不對那如果這些廠商呢他認為說不然再等一下啦那因為金額不夠再等一下啦所以那個就勢必預算金額就會提高那"},{"start":508.601,"end":529,"text":"如果說經常我們政府這些巨額採購都會面臨這樣問題所以說如果說整個等標期夠長然後呢這個決標的方法也明確比方說是選商嘛所以改成一家的話反而會造成有醫院投標人他不會親力的不投"},{"start":529.656,"end":546.922,"text":"好我想這個是業界的立場你如果去看我們的政府我知道我要跟主委講說其實重點還是說回到政府採購法本身是我們今天我今天提這個問題主要還是要擔心為公務人員去講這個事情就是說你要把相關的配套很明確化的未來萬一有"},{"start":548.522,"end":565.227,"text":"萬一有人沒得標去投訴去告圖利那你要讓這個承辦人員他在法律上能夠站住腳目前現實上對那是沒有問題這些前提都做到目前現實上就是有些機關金額不大不小的會造成他很大的困擾"},{"start":566.227,"end":591.765,"text":"就是一定要三家啦所以他這是造成很大的困擾然後也因此有一些這個案子已經發生我請副主委再跟補充說一下跟我再補充就是說有一點誤解說取消三家還要認了一家來就開票事實上不是這樣因為每個標案他有資格限制他可能會訂定基本資格他要訂定特定的資格還有他提供服務的規格"},{"start":592.546,"end":610.886,"text":"他必須這些都符合以後他才能進入要不要決標給他這是第一個啦那第二個當時會這樣的考量是因為很多機關的反應他是這樣子因為他有三家他有執行時效的問題所以在實務上最常看到的是機關請他去找三家"},{"start":612.582,"end":640.408,"text":"那他就會有一點變成是機關有一點讓他跳了一個陷阱他基本上面他以現在的環境他很難去微飆啊因為現在都是電子公告嘛他也不曉得有多少廠家會來他只是擔心假設說今天因為不足三家那我的備標成本都不見了他是基於這樣的心態可能為了讓他符合形式上面他並不是真的有辦法去微飆啦"},{"start":641.068,"end":664.953,"text":"那當然最有正反的意見我們都還在通盤的這個研議好因為時間差不多最後一個問題一樣是政府採購法就是說今天這個因為我們委員提到說三政條款如果它過去多次被政府列為所謂的拒絕往來的廠商名單那希望說未來這樣的廠商或這樣的營業人他就不應該繼續有這個投票的資格我不知道共產黨對這樣子的想法這樣的修法方向支持不支持"},{"start":666.218,"end":683.148,"text":"各位包括就是說目前對於停權的機制怎麼調整各方意見非常多包括要不要所謂的三振條件等於是永久發出他參與標案的資格那就這個議題目前我們在跟各個單位研討的狀況底下"},{"start":684.108,"end":702.327,"text":"絕大部分的意見認為這個有點違反比例的原則所以我們目前基本上的規劃是朝比較這個中間的就是說延長目前可以停權的把它數次的這個停權的時效還有在不同機關裡面去做一個盤整"},{"start":703.228,"end":726.284,"text":"那麼每一個機關原則上可以停到五年那如果他的停權是有再加上其他機關他有可能會停到五年十年十五年那取一個中間當然我目前並沒有排除說一定不要這一個所謂的三政條款但是就確實跟這個委員報告我們聽到目前為止法律界都反對啦"},{"start":726.744,"end":731.482,"text":"好沒關係最後那個這個主委副主委你們就把這個討論剛剛三振條款討論的這種討論給我們一份資料好不好好好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168470","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168470","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5655ee4938da65e13c9153a6630cafd7413783e2c4a522d3aa0fde58f0e31cf2a9dba0c141707bd85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"何欣純","委員發言時間":"11:00:46 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五大策略共同要推動無人機的國家隊為什麼我特別關注這一題"},{"start":33.982,"end":44.366,"text":"因為事實上無人機的一個 上一頁第一頁事實上無人機的一個零組件非常完整的供應鏈在台中那台中的這個產業是無人機的這個國家對的這個政策目標當作是我們的產業能夠轉型升級的一個重要的契機那當然在推動的過程裡面"},{"start":57.05,"end":81.068,"text":"我們五大策略裡面的最重要的是所謂的產業聚落的生態系以及那制定使用規範跟推動資安檢測那共同的來完成這個2027無人機要全部飛紅供應鏈的一個目標這個我想主委你知道啦那為什麼我要特別要在我們公共工程委員會的今天的業務報告裡面來談這一題下一頁"},{"start":84.734,"end":99.463,"text":"我事實上在2020是最早提出當時候在那之前2020之前我們政府各行政單位大部分的無人機有七成以上是中國製的"},{"start":100.96,"end":119.64,"text":"那一年我在總質詢的時候跟蘇院長提到這件事蘇院長才開始盤點我們各個機關裡面到底對於中國製的無人載具、無人機還有多少第二個"},{"start":121.136,"end":142.269,"text":"蘇院長當時也承諾從公務機關公務部門自身做起要盡速的來編列預算該淘汰要淘汰趕快責成副院長來盤點那目前呢我不知道各部會在採購無人機的一個中國製的一個比例"},{"start":143.63,"end":149.322,"text":"第一個 我們原則已經禁用第二個 那禁用了之後 我們要繼續編預算來採購採購這個"},{"start":154.232,"end":181.502,"text":"絕對不能有這個中國製的一個比例那還有這個整個非紅供應鏈的一個我們對於各部門各行政機關到底有沒有能力去檢視或者是呢他採購了之後要結標在採購的過程裡面到底能不能確認這一台他要買的無人機裡面有沒有紅色供應鏈的零組件這個部分主委你知道嗎"},{"start":183.264,"end":204.864,"text":"無人機當然首先是國防的需求不一定喔我先解釋給你聽因為面對中國一直文攻武嚇所以我們要短時間之內能夠國防有足夠能夠來防衛的無人機這個無人機我們希望能夠國內把它變成一種產業"},{"start":207.666,"end":214.931,"text":"軍用的是一種我今天講的2020我那時候提出來是我要告訴你喔內政部有無人機做什麼防災"},{"start":217.679,"end":243.897,"text":"或者是農業部有無人機 做什麼巡山 森林守護然後消防署也有無人機也是在做救護 或者是在災難發生的時候他們可以去使用無人機當為他們的輔助工具在那個當下不是只有軍用的無人機各部會裡面都有使用無人機的人以及採購無人機這個採購過去並沒有"},{"start":248.579,"end":271.125,"text":"並沒有規範過去都沒有規範所以在2020我才會告訴你各部會裡面有超過七成以上的使用的無人機是中國製那在那之後2020之後我才會跟人說為了防止資安風險因為每一台中國製的無人機裡面它的系統是不是有回報的後門"},{"start":272.725,"end":286.25,"text":"資訊是不是被直接嫁接到中國去這個都是資安的風險 也是我們國安的風險所以蘇院長在當年有承諾要競速的盤點跟汰換那接著我當然知道 來"},{"start":287.458,"end":309.128,"text":"下一頁我們公務機關要排除資安風險的時候政府採購全面禁用中國貨在前一任工程會主委吳哲成吳主委的時候曾經也有明確的態度表示公務機關呢頻頻報違規使用中國貨尤其地方政府地方政府也有在使用無人機"},{"start":310.749,"end":314.673,"text":"地方政府的無人機採購到底有沒有符合我們現在的一個原則全面禁用中國貨那個時候吳主委說不聽就要出分了啦那是在2022我從2020指出這件事情之後要政府來重視關注2022我們地方政府還有一些行政單位"},{"start":332.97,"end":336.252,"text":"持續違規在使用中國貨所以才會讓這個當時候的吳主委落下重話再講不聽就處分那我們的包括不是只有地方政府包括各大學包括他們在使用研究也好"},{"start":349.142,"end":371.907,"text":"或者是呢 他們的一個創新大學有沒有在使用無人機 很多 很多領域都在使用那我們還要求教育部跟大學端說要重研認定禁用入場的資訊產品這個當然是逐步的來禁用 逐步的來重研那我現在問的是 我們公共工程委員會"},{"start":373.587,"end":400.507,"text":"在政府採購你們是主管機關到底對於所謂的非紅供應鏈裡面無人載具無人機的整機的一個系統到底有沒有中國組件的piece在裡面那如何協助各地的公務機關的公務人員在採購的過程當中可以有一個規範協助跟認定我現在要問的主委是這一件事好 那我跟委員說明"},{"start":401.628,"end":416.106,"text":"從今年開始三年大概有一個351到400億各部會才是大量採購無人機過去是不多因為大陸的大疆市佔率太高了不只台灣其他國家也都是有大疆的"},{"start":416.707,"end":431.66,"text":"那為了因應未來三年這個各部會採購的無人機那工程會訂立一個無人機的採購指引跟共同供應契約那老師請我們負責的副主委或主任來講一下好 副主委來 下一頁我知道副主委要跟我講因為我有看到了因為飛鴻供應鏈"},{"start":433.482,"end":460.345,"text":"我們政府的大目標政策所以工程會終於從2020我開始在講這件事的時候到現在2026我們提出了一個採購指引那我只想問第一個這個採購指引今年的2月24號出來的那採購指引實施到現在有沒有碰到問題再來我們未來如何落實各部會的稽查 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將來我們變成一個產業要外銷的所以一定要培養自製的能力那這個自製能力就是要擺脫所有的中國製的產品 目的是這樣子所以我就希望公共工程委員會 因為你是政府採購的主管機關的最上位 那我們的未來在這一個飛泳供應鏈的一個這個建立之下 如何落實各部會的稽查 我最後一頁我為什麼會講到這個你現在今年才訂這個"},{"start":749.14,"end":774.076,"text":"這個指引那在訂指引之前過去採購的無人機如何集合這個請給我一個書面報告因為時間到了第二個那現在作業指引訂定了之後那我們的採購集合的能量所以我才問說你們有多少人啊對不對那你們集合的過程又是如何啊那發現問題又該如何解決那如何管控治安的風險這個再拜託這個很重要好不好"},{"start":777.418,"end":779.793,"text":"再給我一個書面的一個完整的一個答覆謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168487","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168487","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5655ee4938da65e119209ded58612140413783e2c4a522d3c80866d4b6cb3fd61052946088e6d4215ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪毓祥","委員發言時間":"11:59:38 - 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謝謝主席 有請工程會主委有請陳主委好 主委很早"},{"start":17.768,"end":41.936,"text":"我想今天大概兩個問題而已在前一陣子來講我們國防採購的大漏洞對不對室內裝修商福邁國際的話可以去標炸藥原料大石國際協商可以去做步槍的抵火更扯的是我們的茶行可以去標這些資安海軍的伺服器等等所以呢在我們過去的這段時間發生的時候我們就覺得"},{"start":45.438,"end":71.453,"text":"台灣的奇蹟很厲害從小本生意做到國安軍火那除了這個之外如果再把過去的歷史高端環球小吃店可以去標16.5億的快篩超市公司50萬資本一人公司可以去做超過這麼多資本額的一個案子那我們的結論就覺得說很厲害這些茶要配炸藥小吃配快篩"},{"start":73.46,"end":85.783,"text":"這是另類的台灣奇蹟比我們護國神山還要厲害我想要問主委是發生這些事情工程會有沒有什麼樣的做法作為"},{"start":87.734,"end":109.671,"text":"請教主委跟委員說明這個政務採購法裡面這個採購單位他本來就可以增訂他採購的項目設定禮約的能力跟他的資格那麼或者是相關的法規都有那採購單位他可以根據這個可以訂定所以你覺得這樣子是合理的嗎"},{"start":110.489,"end":136.53,"text":"不是合理的坦白講會不會怪怪的委員講的也言過其實啦所以言過其實啦所以說工程會打造台灣奇蹟這個是那算了那回到這個你不覺得看這個怪怪的嗎這就因為每個採購有他的這個訂定的這個採購的合約啦他的這個要採購的東西而且你舉的個案我的建議是這樣子啦你舉的個案有的是貿易"},{"start":137.691,"end":159.188,"text":"他有的是他是貿易並不是廠商今天如果說我如果一個做茶葉的廠商我要去投生產生產火藥那個當然這個是資格不符如果說他這個公司他的營業項目這個牽涉到這個就是我現在的要求就是說因為我自己也做過很多的政府採購案"},{"start":160.629,"end":178.754,"text":"基本上來講我是覺得公家部門在這個地方可能工程會可以去要求就是說它不見得是刑事審查商業登記那個我花了幾百塊就有了我勾一個資訊服務項目我就可以去標這樣子來講是代表是說我們的機關單位要去做到實質的審查"},{"start":180.376,"end":196.932,"text":"像這個像這個茶葉行去做這個資安的話也是啊他就是原本沒有得標的公司他是被停權的嘛所以我再找一個我友好廠商去標標完之後再轉包給他所以我派出去的員工也不是我這一個得標廠商的員工"},{"start":198.191,"end":220.506,"text":"所以我是要求的是說這些都過去沒有問題我們要解決問題嘛所以我是覺得要能夠要求或者是工程會去抽檢就是實質的廠商的資格的審查去包含他的專案時機嘛那第二個剛剛很多委員都問過的就是我們現在很多被停權的公司開一大堆子公司啦"},{"start":221.57,"end":237.922,"text":"負責人透過友好廠商去標的然後他可能也用他自己的這些以前的理監事再去登記一些不同的公司等等這些東西在你們現在工程會的這些不管是優質廠商 黑名單廠商有沒有這樣子的集合"},{"start":239.202,"end":264.832,"text":"我們當然可以集合啦包括這個廠商的履歷都會提供有個資料庫給這個集合準不準相關的這個採購機關甚至我們採購法的修正本來要防度這種停權了又換個公司或子公司這沒關係就是我希望是可以給我一個報告因為我覺得這個東西很重要因為二十幾年來都是這種問題啊好不好再來"},{"start":266.292,"end":290.118,"text":"接下來第二個問題這個是因為我從資通訊產業來這個我們資訊服務政府很多資訊服務系統的採購我們資服務業20幾年來包含軟體工會TCA台北市電腦工會電電工會各程式的這些的電腦工會等等其實IT資訊採購跟我一般造橋部是完全不一樣的同意吧 主委"},{"start":292.009,"end":315.171,"text":"這個當然是不一樣所以這裡頭我列了這幾個問題我相信各個工程會的主委應該都很清楚第一個 這個規格很難定然後我資安在合規一開始就要下去而不是等到最後再來去做資安的合規檢測因為你前面資格難定就是實施的機關單位他又沒辦法去控制這個規格的變化"},{"start":316.872,"end":339.478,"text":"所以需求一直變更然後廠商就覺得說你又變更規格我做下去我又沒有利潤所以慢慢的就是形成劣幣就驅逐良幣就一路一路做下去然後這個技術迭代又很快所以那時候我們就覺得說很棒啊這也是你們工程會前副主委葉澤良那時候找了速發部去訂了資訊服務系統採購指引後面113年還訂了雲服務的採購的範本"},{"start":346.223,"end":367.973,"text":"可是這些都是指引範本我們業界覺得不錯了有進步炒了20幾年但是我們希望是錄法可是我們就很期待你的這個修改修法但是沒有看到這一塊所以我們就覺得說你們的採購法修法是不是可以列入這一塊好好去思考可以嗎"},{"start":369.973,"end":398.612,"text":"跟委員報告坦白講有關資訊的採購確實陳如仁所講的他具有相當的專業性所以因為上面我們這一塊當然都是跟速發部還有跟速發部推給你知道嗎所以我們後來就是把它化為一個行政命令還有採購範本但是因為我們現在對他的理解因為他並沒有牽涉到整個採購法說哪一個條要去修改他基本上還是整個現有採購法的"},{"start":400.234,"end":426.816,"text":"我們是希望 你看我修改也可以我是可以幫你列一列專章如果委員有比較具體的到底是針對哪一條我們也很歡迎說可以提供給我們因為我們確實不是這方面的專家好 那我是覺得會後我們可以找個時間好好討論因為我也找了葉澤良我也找了當時我們寫這些因為當時我們資訊業界公會都有參與我是覺得這個東西指引沒有人要看"},{"start":427.758,"end":430.055,"text":"指引我假設我是一個執行單位不遵守會怎樣"},{"start":431.96,"end":461.019,"text":"這個就是我們採購法裡面這次要修的剛性契約的修訂所以我說拜託台灣是我們政府是AI行動內閣這一點要記住所以我的要求就是資訊服務採購的作業指引可以是入法的我們這個會後是可以討論的幫我們的產業做一點因為台灣是數位通訊數位資通訊的王國可是我們的軟體應用服務系統是很糟糕的政府的採購也很糟糕所以我們希望能夠把這一段補強"},{"start":461.84,"end":463.09,"text":"好不好好這可以嗎好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168486","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168486","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5655ee4938da65e10d62245497591db4413783e2c4a522d3c80866d4b6cb3fd61052946088e6d4215ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"11:52:21 - 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主席 在場委員 先進列車政局 讓所長 官員 會長 工作夥伴 媒體 記者 女士先生有請我們陳主委有請陳主委"},{"start":21.176,"end":36.778,"text":"委員長主委辛苦啦今天的題目都很接近進口營建原料漲幅超過物價指數那公共工程的物條跟工期怎麼協調來我們看一下來主委進口物價的漲幅高於CPI如果3月份來講以美元計價我們的物價呢"},{"start":38.019,"end":59.816,"text":"年增8.53%新台幣也有到4.83%但是我們的3月的CPI只有1.2那表示什麼呢CPI它會跟著進口物價進口替代型造成的影響會延後可能國內的生產成本已經增加到兩三成了但是國內的整個CPI物價指數會落後一兩季"},{"start":60.276,"end":80.994,"text":"那才會造成問題才會浮現可是呢實況上以餐宴來講現在喜宴新人啊包材上漲兩成啊這個餐宴也要多了兩三成好那我們工程會怎麼規定我們工程會來下一頁工程採購契約範本的物條方式就是什麼營建工程物價總指數不是CPI啦但是呢是要2.5%"},{"start":82.555,"end":93.701,"text":"是如果沒有規定就是2.5%啦那估驗完成後呢再來調整工程而且換機當院實施的數量那我請教一下目前有沒有已經超過2.5%了主委現在現在的物價往下一頁看"},{"start":100.782,"end":120.367,"text":"那我舉例 你再看一下 塑膠建材的實際漲幅遠高於紫素我們最近因為塑膠原料的價格持續上漲 塑膠水管PVC大概呢 原料端都漲幅到兩成到三成那我們如果看營造工程的物價指數的年增率到了三月 也從1.79 2.26到達2.7已經到達2.5%的範圍所以是不是根據工程採購契約的範本的物調方式廠商這樣調 只能調2.5嗎"},{"start":131.181,"end":159.98,"text":"我跟委員報告整個工程會的企業範本針對物條有很詳盡的規定那尤其是再建工程在再建工程當中現在遇到一些戰事或其他的狀況有調整那麼我們同意就可以物條那物條在企業範本裡面有很詳盡的規定那要看個案啦看個案就對了所以就是說看每個公共工程發包採購都是怎麼約定沒有約定就2.5%"},{"start":161.221,"end":181.776,"text":"那其實我們來看 其實工程會還是做了一件事情往下看齁其實呢大概主委很清楚啦 那一天是美麗的星期天 3月22號我特別打電話給你求助就是說我接到陳情 就是說力卿 剛剛很多人也在問力卿那因為中東情勢一定要力卿 供料的波動但是呢 結果您說有什麼 您剛剛的回答跟當天的回答很像"},{"start":182.336,"end":201.296,"text":"說如果個案的情況 我們工程會再來協助但是除了個案之外呢 工程會也在4月2號也發布了一個指引就是因應立新公調的波動工程會呢 發布了履約指引 啟動了跨部會協調全力穩定公共工程的推進那請問這個指引的主要精神是什麼"},{"start":203.533,"end":216.59,"text":"我剛提過了就是務條跟工期啦就是這個指引當中讓各個公共工程的發報單位可以據這樣的指引跟他的合約商來調整他的務條就算是原來的契約當中請他們趕快"},{"start":223.157,"end":242.511,"text":"啟動企業的機制或者企業的機制比較不夠完備的也可以設法去幫廠商減少他們遇到的困難是這個意思嗎沒有錯好那現在剛剛講到了這個裡面有包括了物條跟工期那如果廠商因為缺料無法如期完工這個工期的指引現在很多我們都接到啊那"},{"start":243.211,"end":268.148,"text":"主委都很貼心啊 說有個案你來問我們 我們幫你解決可是你都發布了一個指引了嘛這個指引當中 好像對於這些對工企的擔憂這些廠商 因為呢 剛剛講到塑膠我們剛剛前面講到的所謂的營造工程的物價 總指數 那是總的但是因為工工有不同的品項如果是道路工程可能力興障的比重很高 這時候怎麼辦"},{"start":269.885,"end":293.435,"text":"來龍副主委那個委員報告事實上我們的物條它是有分三級啦它是個別項目還有種植樹還有種植樹嘛那它有一個適用的一個這個順序最不得也是採用到種植樹它如果是個別項目本身已經達到跟就可以了所以不是說一定只能用種植樹那供給的部分呢"},{"start":294.042,"end":313.351,"text":"供期的部分當然因為理論上機關他會比較保守是因為他會覺得希望廠商能夠提出比較直接的證明因為譬如說今天發生戰爭或者發生什麼疫情那是不是一定會影響到這個供期有時候他涉及個案的認定那這一塊當然我們是希望機關可以站在比較同理的立場"},{"start":313.871,"end":326.398,"text":"但是因為他個案計算有時候很難說給他一個標準那只能說原則上如果說他以當時現在的狀況那具有相當的關聯性應該就是可以扣啦"},{"start":326.834,"end":344.005,"text":"好來那最後呢主委最後呢兩個結論往下看就是說剛剛你們發布的例清那是不是可以比照例清這次中東站影響了塑膠原料漲幅達7月標準的物價的調整的一個指引您之前發布的是例清嘛"},{"start":344.665,"end":357.827,"text":"那有沒有考慮評估一下這是塑膠的部分第二個也研議一下就是剛剛講到的副主委提到的如果因為物量短缺造成延宕的履約指引這個有沒有可能更明確一點"},{"start":361.356,"end":384.528,"text":"事實上整個工程會的合約換本裡面的物條不限於哪一個項目是 你們針對力清發布了啊力清是因為比較立即嘛 那塑膠呢那個我們當時的處理裡面就包括這個塑膠硬管等等的塑膠硬管也包含在內了 包含在裡面不是只有力清 當然當然"},{"start":385.529,"end":400.919,"text":"那恭喜的部分有沒有可能有更明確的去研議一下好那這部分可能要整體來到時候我們可能看看因為當時針對疫情有特別的處理啦那針對這一次的可能我們要再整體研究看看好那主委那就拜託了"},{"start":401.926,"end":425.356,"text":"好 那因為工期根據合約嘛 是那如果說對工期有爭議那可以到工程會來請求諮詢啦那諮詢的時候我們基本上態度是因為這次是中東戰爭的原因那麼所以比較同意那麼可以合理的調整工期很好 感謝我們主委這樣的一個開明的公佈 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168485","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168485","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5655ee4938da65e1033fb0fe92e25d3c413783e2c4a522d3c80866d4b6cb3fd6bb7f1b8e8d3d49e25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許智傑","委員發言時間":"11:38:59 - 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你現在反正來者不善嘛你什麼東西都不溝通嘛你在不溝通的狀況之下那最後幹什麼 就是打仗嘛是不是就是打仗嘛你無法溝通 無法在桌面上來談事情那就我們準備武器嘛 跟對面對幹就這個意思嘛 是不是是不是這個意思其實你金門馬祖太簡單了他把你所有的金元切斷物資切斷"},{"start":132.082,"end":159.02,"text":"是不是早上有人問,廈門那邊做的橋他們在兩年以前開始動工了要跟小金門要通橋你知道嗎已經真的在做了他這個橋他為什麼敢做你不通的話他改天把你圍起來,他一樣把你金門拿下來一樣通當然我們是政治上評估他大概不至於這樣做了那現在,好你講海水淡化"},{"start":160.697,"end":186.782,"text":"你喜歡喝海水蛋花的水嗎我們目前你看馬祖都是海灘機南竿你看六百噸的有兩座每天有一千噸的水淡水海水海水蛋花的水北竿有五百噸的水東營有五百噸的水東西局有差不多兩百噸的水這些水"},{"start":188.049,"end":203.422,"text":"海水淡化水喝下去你覺得健康嗎?你有沒有跟醫生有接觸過?你們行政院工程會老是在討論這些事情水裡面原水包含了一些鈣、鎂、鈉、鉀、鐵、矇、氯、矽很多東西在裡面我跟醫生聊過海水淡化的水喝了以後會怎麼樣?它會軟趴趴的骨頭"},{"start":216.755,"end":244.901,"text":"骨骼疏鬆對身體會有影響的我們目前老百姓的壽命還活得蠻長的如果跟中部一樣用廢塞發電那天閻光衡委員跟我講他最近出病出病的場合都是六七十歲的我們這邊都八九十歲他六七十歲你到北京去七十歲也是高壽為什麼"},{"start":248.07,"end":268.423,"text":"它只有一個出口嘛所以北京那邊都是霧濛濛、雨濛濛的那個空氣非常糟糕啦所以所以你有機會對水的問題我希望你到馬祖旭也順便考察一下好不好督導經濟部這水的問題我們目前水是夠記者問我水夠不夠我說夠電夠不夠?夠"},{"start":271.906,"end":299.515,"text":"但是有狀況,你不能長年喝這個海水氮化的水海水氮化水進來以後要跟原水要混合在一起金門的水有,我們政府有講你水資源不足的時候才同意讓它購水那是管碧玲委員現任的海委會主委,她反對最厲害後來我跟楊正文委員去陪著我陪楊正文委員去跟管碧玲委員溝通"},{"start":301.448,"end":302.755,"text":"金門才開放這個水啊"},{"start":303.666,"end":331.369,"text":"所以馬祖這個水的問題,我們未來的十年二十年,觀光科來了以後,要為這個來打算水啊、電啊,這些可以考慮主委好不好因為牽涉到其他部會的問題,不單純是供工程委員的業務所以我們了解委員的用心你不要一定要政黨輪替,你現在對共產黨沒有信心"},{"start":333.048,"end":358.136,"text":"對不對沒有人對共產黨有信心他過來跟你下跪了嗎你也不敢跟他聊啊你總是認為黃鼠狼給雞拜年嘛是不是報告主委你有這樣的想法那個很麻煩耶共產黨統治的國家沒有幾個啦所以你看看全世界主要的民主國家對共產黨的提議好啦現在你也看到老美嘛老美我要打你哪裡就哪裡嘛是不是我要打你伊朗美國總統講什麼"},{"start":362.383,"end":388.039,"text":"我打伊朗是鬧著玩的開玩笑的你懂不懂我想打他就打他大國現在就這麼回事嘛是不是今天美國有力量可以保護台灣我們所以台灣講話很強硬有一天美國沒這個能力來保護台灣的時候台灣講話還那麼大聲嗎我不相信好這個不談我們目前喔馬祖那邊你們有沒有去做施工的查核啊"},{"start":389.639,"end":411.395,"text":"我之前有請祖密去過馬祖一趟那是針對一個風災的個案不是光茶河公災,還有我們的公共工程我們最近本來在安排去看它的水資源處理中心因為馬祖是一個污水處理的典範在全國各縣市接管率,馬祖好像是第三名"},{"start":412.576,"end":437.121,"text":"接管率是全國第三名海水淡化是處理的很好我說是民生污水的處理接管率是全國第三名所以是非常認真在接管在做這些小型的污水處理廠所以我們是最近有時間會安排污水處理我們那時候我還當縣長的時候我們是全國第二名除了落後台北市我們是第二名高雄市"},{"start":440.447,"end":447.123,"text":"是第二還是馬祖是第二啦,大概是全國優先啦馬祖有個地方你們漏掉了,軍中啊"},{"start":448.568,"end":475.118,"text":"軍中都在山上那個汙水你們要注意到你不要只注意到民間所以軍方的汙水是沒有接管嗎他那個髒的水流下來會影響到我們平原我們找時間去看好現在就是說落實施工查核我們北竿的中山國中原定115年6月25號完工到現在工程紀錄多少2.49"},{"start":478.809,"end":481.951,"text":"你們工程會對這個事情怎麼處理?他們已經進入2.498委員這個個案是我們來瞭解,預定6月完工目前沒有很像在工程會,你們在跟縣政府跟他在你們那邊調組,在調組還有在調組喔?還可以調組嗎?"},{"start":502.147,"end":515.726,"text":"可能資料要回去查,如果說是他的在履歷當中施工進度達到一定的比例,機關當然可以罰他錢或者把他終止但我不知道這個個案的情況這個早就要列入101條了吧"},{"start":517.589,"end":531.106,"text":"那是另外一件事情 那是兩件事情你們現在在處理喔可能要回去查 因為案件很多啦 委員臨時問我不是案件很多 但是落得太嚴重了嘛今年要完工的東西才2.49"},{"start":533.776,"end":559.05,"text":"現在我們沒處理,你們沒處理,當然人家有一些人怪到縣長頭上去做管理的人也很麻煩工程會是負責申訴的部分,到底要不要停權是由機關來決定還有大邱遊客中心,也一樣大邱遊客中心當然啦,現在中央沒有錢給他"},{"start":560.755,"end":589.097,"text":"沒有錢給他所以進度落後你們了解一下好不好還有在缺工我們那裡失業率是0.1全國最低的沒有人失業啊他沒有工作的一些人什麼原因就是年齡老化還有身心障礙除了這些人都有工作做那我們缺工他怎麼辦呢缺工這裡面不只是工程的缺工"},{"start":590.407,"end":591.609,"text":"我們旅遊業、旅館、洗床單、備單還有廚師、炒菜、洗碗盤這些怎麼處理?"},{"start":603.12,"end":620.711,"text":"因為這是服務業的這個人力需求那勞動部也一直有在注意這些事情那我們會來跟勞動部來反映另外就缺工的問題就工程的問題因為離島所以他的人力缺乏包括"},{"start":621.952,"end":651.04,"text":"原料也缺乏所以需要運送所以基本上預算當然是可以比平常在本島的預算那麼可以再增加再多編啦 寬編這一直都有這樣的一個制度後邊我們有的標不出去耶你看一個工程標了18次主委你在台灣有聽說過標18次標不出去的嗎有標多次流標的是有啦是不是有標18次 好像這個標出去了"},{"start":652.484,"end":681.072,"text":"聽說這個廠商不只標這個工程,前面標這個工程不知道工程延宕多久已經一直給他工期了他有三個,阿兵哥還一個,還一個案子這個拿他沒辦法嗎?你這樣下去的話怎麼辦?當縣長也好,當指揮官也好,你說碰到這樣的工程這些業者你說怎麼辦?這不是我的問題嘛,不是從政者的問題嘛"},{"start":682.639,"end":705.717,"text":"所以這個法律上面 法規上面怎麼處理它受到你們工程會去調處你們要有一個標準的判斷好不好好 如果禮遇爭議的調解那工程會會指定委員來協助還有就是心事中的事情請主委認真一點對水資源的管理等等好不好你不能讓我們一直喝海水丹花茶"},{"start":707.261,"end":730.604,"text":"核和海水淡化,你起碼未來的十年二十年還是要未雨綢繆你不能光看眼前,眼前是沒有缺水沒有缺電問題我們很多的基礎建設完備以後,觀光客進來我們要供應這麼多人,那時候水跟電就不夠了你要從長計議,謝謝主委"}]}},{"id":"168483","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168483","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5655ee4938da65e1a57eb28a51804536e63d9eaeca1783e3c80866d4b6cb3fd69b0160faa0cdae515ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"12:06:14 - 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董事長好我想我們在這邊就是共同關心民生的物價以及不要受到衝擊這也是我們召委為什麼會排案的主要目的那現在中東戰事因為美國跟伊朗的談判又看面臨到破裂那不管怎麼樣大家預期的心理會多延後不知道但目前我們有沒有針對物價的部分有去做一個掌握說不要因為這一波而造成有物價漲價的一個狀況"},{"start":40.512,"end":69.726,"text":"是 跟委員報告就是我們每個禮拜它都由政府院長召開物價穩定小組然後本身就是有針對那個石油原油還天然氣還有包括電那所以目前就是油價有雙動漲還有一個專案動漲所以導致目前為止我們雖然油價整個是成長百分之七十幾但是我們實際上真正讓它有漲漲來就只有六點多"},{"start":70.086,"end":98.348,"text":"是這樣子所以整個三月份的一個物價指數來看三月份才1.2那整個1到3是1.23的一個百分比我預期的1.38還要低那現在就是說要看四月份那四月份我們就是五月中旬我們會再做評估然後再做一個然後也會因為這樣我們再調整我們整個一個穩定物價的一個措施的一個問題"},{"start":99.89,"end":120.972,"text":"主委長我簡單講你剛剛的意思就是說因為現在雖然原油進口的價格確實有漲但是我們用政府吸收的方式不管是中油吸收或是政府吸收已經吸收了超過百億我現在能不能再請教說我們有沒有合理的預估如果說這漲到什麼時間點我們沒有辦法吸收下去確實一定要反映到市場上"},{"start":122.545,"end":147.338,"text":"那個臨界點在哪邊所以我們一般我們像我們還是無止境動漲是到九月底為止包括所謂的貨物稅的一個減免包括相關稅捐的一個減免都是到九月底那所以我們每個禮拜都會討論然後整個會再做一個整體的評估所以如果說有什麼變動其實主要是重點是要看中東戰爭的一個戰事的一個情形狀況來做變動"},{"start":150.66,"end":164.311,"text":"主席長你還是沒有針對本席的問題回答所以如果說你真正到還是你講的意思是說到九月以前不管中東因為到九月還有四五個月嘛那我現在就是說如果照你剛剛的講法就是九月才動漲漲價才會再做調整"},{"start":166.713,"end":195.611,"text":"可是不是啊因為你講的是電啊可是我們現在講的是油啊油的部分有包含是說油包含說塑膠等相關所以這也是國人大家關心嘛那本席現在比較重視的是說到最基層的民眾因為這一些都反映成本我知道對 所以到多少的時間點裡面我們都會吸收還是說有一個臨界點就是政府無法吸收或中友無法吸收了有沒有討論過這個部分可能要請中友來回答因為這個部分要看他們"},{"start":196.133,"end":221.412,"text":"有關油價的部分目前採取的機制就是每週檢討所以都沒有討論過本席現在不是在挖陷阱但是本席是要的是超前部署以及了解說政府的決策現在的思考方向就是說我們已經補貼了百億這個是事實對不對從2月28號到現在我們吸收了多少成本"},{"start":222.562,"end":249.506,"text":"到整個3月底吸收90億90億嘛 好那如果說因為剛剛開宗明義主席長也講嘛就是說70幾%的這個漲幅然後我們未來如果說持續飆漲原油每桶現在破110塊那如果120、130、140持續上去這不是不可能但本身現在想問的是說到什麼時間點或什麼臨界點中油也認為是說你們沒有辦法了那一定要反映成本"},{"start":250.525,"end":277.066,"text":"報告委員我想有幾個關鍵的參數要去做一個綜合的評估第一個我們亞鄰國的國家他們對於汽柴油他們的售價是到什麼樣一個情境第二個對於這個民生物價來講它的衝擊會怎麼樣第三個對中油公司來講我們財務上是能不能夠去吸收可能要好多因素來做一個董事長這就是本席想要問這都本席的前提"},{"start":278.067,"end":307.552,"text":"其實本席現在問的問題就是考量這三個前提沒關係也許你我不知道是不是有苦難言或是說怕現在講了之後這個遷移法動全身但是本席很嚴肅嚴正地要提醒就是說中遊應該要思考這一個問題因為這個問題很實際也可能會發生那再來是說影響到民生物價的時候我們有沒有相關檢討因為本席甚至跟要求是說鄰近國家現在可能也要去觀察"},{"start":307.972,"end":328.426,"text":"有沒有因為這一波中東戰事而造成物價上漲調整的狀況要因應那真的最後為什麼本席這樣講因為主計長我還是要強調在財政委員會很著名的一個詢答就是我們有委員問主計長說到底歐阿米爽一碗多少錢結果主計長不知道還在講說20塊啊"},{"start":329.767,"end":349.872,"text":"那我不希望主計處也好或說我們相關單位是不死人間煙火所以本席才會提出說如果說這一波中東戰事而可能會造成物價上漲這個是全面的大事要提早因應而中油的部分因為我們已經看到航空業也已經在四月的時候調漲"},{"start":350.612,"end":375.546,"text":"票價嘛雖然他講的是說燃油費增加但是航空業的調漲是事實啊甚至人家講說一張飛機票這個要多五六千塊三四千塊那這都是事實所以已經用油大宗的航空業運輸業已經都在調漲了那我們不要因此而連帶的變成是民生的一個物價因為漲了回不去這才是關鍵"},{"start":376.957,"end":401.154,"text":"好我希望真的是隨時都要關注然後還有就是每個月檢討也要拿出具體的辦法每個禮拜都檢討也要拿出具體的辦法跟因應不要讓委員認為是說我們在這邊問不到答案或是說你們又重複把前提講出來答案要有好不好我們會持續關注也希望大家一起努力感謝好謝謝洪木凱委員的質詢每個禮拜都檢討"}]}},{"id":"168482","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168482","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5655ee4938da65e150429c108b03980381f6660fd2e34289c80866d4b6cb3fd68ce2492c85169a165ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王安祥","委員發言時間":"12:00:16 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有請這個國防部副部長還有這個海巡署請國防部副部長以及海巡署會後會我想《紐約時報》這個報導之後其實國人都非常關心今天這個議題我想這個時候做這個專報其實非常重要那我有再讀到這次的這個報告裡面其實國防部"},{"start":27.623,"end":55.311,"text":"跟這個海巡署都有提到這個事情那我知道因為不同部會他對這些多元的情資他要做這個徵收的目的都不太一樣因為兩個單位其實都有講到這個部分就是說資訊量很大然後我們需要用一些比較科技的方法就像AI這樣子因為那天其實國安局有跟國安局長做了一下這個意見的交換所以今天主要就是針對這個國安部"},{"start":56.731,"end":78.255,"text":"跟這個海巡署這邊有很多類似的部分啦就是剛剛其實前面我也有提到就是有關於這個所謂的整合啦不曉得這個整合的部分是不是先請這個副部長就是有一些也許是海巡那邊像剛剛他們用一些紅外線的一些資料那怎麼樣統合做一個徵收或勤收的一個工具"},{"start":80.023,"end":96.962,"text":"首先跟委員報告就是說我們的國軍的岸基雷達跟海巡的岸基雷達基本上是有一個分工的我們主要負責12海浬以外比較大型中型的目標所以禁岸其實不是我們的範圍但是"},{"start":99.335,"end":114.24,"text":"我們的雷情跟海巡的這個徵收系統是互通的所以我們看到的我們也會讓海巡通知因為現在假設要交給AI來處理可以減少人員的一些負荷所以我覺得這個可能整合的部分會比過去"},{"start":115.02,"end":131.805,"text":"用人工的方式要來得更重要包括他那個情質的判讀啦或者是他哪些訊號要怎麼做橫向的連結啦我覺得可能過去也許沒有這個問題因為人會做主觀的判斷嘛不過現在AI可能就是有關於這個所謂的整合的部分可能特別重要那是不是請海巡署這邊"},{"start":132.785,"end":156.414,"text":"再為說明一下就是有關於這個整合就你們那邊的情資跟委員報告我們海巡組雷情的整個海面偵測的這個資料都有跟國防部同步分享那國防部的海情部分也會在我們的雷情上面呈現所以我們在海面步伐管理上是銜接沒有漏洞的部分"},{"start":156.894,"end":180.584,"text":"另外國防部因為它主要是負責軍事的部分所以它還是以中大型的目標為主那我們海巡署是以中大型以外的中小型的目標為主那我們兩個群之是互通的所以我們在雷情的那個畫面上是可以看到國防部所有的海軍的目標那國防部也可以看到我們整個雷情上面的所有的海巡署的目標"},{"start":181.524,"end":208.173,"text":"是 我想這樣是沒有什麼問題我想大家應該都看得到只是我剛剛說過因為我們今天開這個專報基本上就是因為這兩件事情好像越來越模糊到底是軍還是民 搞不太清楚到底是誰他到底是帶有什麼樣的任務過來的其實常常搞不清楚但我想其實可能大家都看得到我的意思是說是不是要建立一個機制那到底是要做怎麼樣的處理我覺得這個非常重要尤其在你們報告裡面有講到就是要被動轉成主動"},{"start":209.874,"end":230.066,"text":"主動就不像過去看到只是看到那個畫面而已看到什麼事情在做什麼樣的處理也許要更有一些比較advanced就是更前面的一些舉措因為我們知道過去這些很多他都會把AS關掉然後造成我們很多判斷上的困難不知道這個部分海巡署這邊有什麼"},{"start":231.328,"end":245.35,"text":"因應的方案嗎?各位委員包括那有關這個海綿目標管理的部分就是我們現在發現以後都會標定它的目的那另外剛剛委員特別提到有關閉AIS部因為我們現在有另外一個系統可以去偵測"},{"start":246.391,"end":272.174,"text":"暗傳系統也就是說他從出港以後然後就開始關閉AS那我們可以從他的軌跡就可以查證他的後面的相關的軌跡也可以推斷他的位置所以這個部分特別跟委報我們現在有好幾個系統在做這個所謂的隔岡委員提到關閉AS暗傳系統的部分所以這個部分其實在珍州上面它相對一部分是彌補我們現在雷達珍州上面的盲點"},{"start":272.854,"end":295.825,"text":"所以這就是我今天提出這個資訊的最主要原因因為AI 既然用AI資訊量要大而且要正確不管他有沒有做什麼樣的預先的一些舉措那我這邊有收集到一個新聞資料就是今年四月的時候有一個漁船我們基本上在發現他有一些狀況有點奇怪"},{"start":296.525,"end":323.876,"text":"不過後來說 看到最後的結果是因為它上面裝了一些中國的這個發泡器是不是我不曉得針對這個還是...這是一艘 我們在發現以為我們是它是發泡中國的AIS 對但是我們的巡弘艇到現場以後發現它是東港級的漁船那上面的... 對不起 琉球系的漁船那上面的裝載的那一個發泡器是魚巨的AIS 是啊"},{"start":324.176,"end":336.322,"text":"就是我們現在有很多延伸掉啦 包括地庫房 都當AIS就讓我有點擔心啦像這種事情 我知道你們好像後面有做了一些訪查嘛我們想現在的狀況怎麼樣 後續應該要怎麼樣來處理把這個可能這樣子的因為它一句用個AIS沒有發折漁船的AIS如果關閉 或者是尾帽 它是有發折的"},{"start":347.688,"end":375.359,"text":"但是有魚巨的部分是沒有法則那這部分我們已經建立主管機關漁業署這邊來做改進那現在另外一部分就特別跟尾巴我們現在很多的定置漁網延伸掉他通通會用AIS去標定他的位置因為他放了以後人就離開嘛所以他就從AIS去所以說不會再有這樣的狀況因為我知道因為我們在那個那個所謂雷達上面最怕看到看到的搞不清楚到底是敵人還是自己"},{"start":375.919,"end":402.129,"text":"我覺得這個是一個很麻煩的一個現象所以那個我們現在那個Marine Travel裡面網站裡面去看然後如果各位如果有機會去上去看它就很多AIS的訊號其實它有一大部分是漁網漁具的AIS但是現在因為中國的AIS比較便宜所以我們現在也有很多的國籍的漁船會去採用AIS所以這個有辦法把它排除掉嗎或是請他們我看看你們"},{"start":403.61,"end":423.719,"text":"我們會去點選比較可一點選因為漁網漁具的AIS的前面的標碼跟我們漁船用的註冊用的AIS是不一樣的另外跟委員報告現在有一個比較嚴重的狀況就是AIS可以更換可以取代可以變造 偽造我們現在要用AIS嘛如果INPUT這一段的資訊是錯誤的我想後面我們再怎麼精進啊"},{"start":429.201,"end":449.969,"text":"或是買多少有算力的東西或多少軟體可能效果都不會太好因為AI的發展會越來越進步只要我們的資料庫夠大夠多AI判讀都越精準所以我們現在倒進到AI裡面去的資料庫我們現在慢慢一直在建立在充實"},{"start":451.169,"end":469.869,"text":"另外跟委員報告所有的海面目標我們對於台灣有威脅譬如說是中資的旋翼輪啊譬如說這一個這個那個後滾輪啊這些我們都有列管助計只要進到台灣水域他就會自動告解所以署長應該下次不會再有這個誤認或錯認的狀況出現吧還是說還是有可能會發生"},{"start":472.532,"end":497.822,"text":"因為他發報的時候我們不太清楚嘛所以我們還是會覺得很可疑他很靠近那在我們的聯合營業區裡面我們還是會派人去辨識啦所以還是請署長這件事情要keep in mind就是把他當作一些非常重要的事情因為我想我們今天在討論這件事情的時候這個是非常重要的事情好不好那請那個署長可以寫文請部長一下"},{"start":499.851,"end":515.079,"text":"因為我上次一直在很關心軍級人員照顧小孩的部分我那些有特別質詢中副那些有特別跟我做一些報告不過我再把我的問題再確認一下"},{"start":516.059,"end":543.052,"text":"因為這個很多人跟我反映其實這個我們比較care的應該是拖音那個部分就是0到2歲那個部分就很多軍職人員我上次主席的時候有特別提到就常常夫妻兩位其實都可能都是所以我們現在這個在不同的這個單位我們其實都在為了這個少子女化在做很多努力我當然也希望就軍方這邊來說也可以給這些軍職人員做一些這個實質上最拖音的這些支持"},{"start":543.832,"end":563.968,"text":"因為我們上次有去詢問國防部現在看起來這幾個提供我們的資訊大概都還是二到六歲以後的所以我還是強調希望能夠強化所謂的拖音的部分就是零到二分這個是不是請部長稍微大概說一下因為我後面可能時間來不及"},{"start":565.558,"end":579.47,"text":"好 鮑偉仁這個我手上沒有特別關於拖音的資料不過您講這個問題我們回去研究一下我再回覆您好不好我知道現在的確我們主要是兩到六歲配合政府政策這部分我們是有"},{"start":580.771,"end":596.248,"text":"對 所以因為很多後面這個因為現在大家其實都不是兩歲以後常常都是更小然後是因為軍職人員其實他散佈在很多我們這個不同甚至是離島我們都覺得這個可能他的資源配備更不足"},{"start":597.229,"end":615.79,"text":"沒有關係 因為今天可能時間上不是很來得及因為我們有收集到一些資料我們還是因為我原來都在勞政那邊我希望給這些軍事人員在工作上因為我們軍人也是工作給他們更多的協助讓他們都願意生小孩讓我們可以一起來解決這個少子女化的問題謝謝委員關心好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168493","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168493","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5655ee4938da65e1725c77fcefc4a4d081f6660fd2e34289c80866d4b6cb3fd6bb2b46c06798901d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"12:22:48 - 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海巡署有請親海巡署委員好"},{"start":14.349,"end":41.004,"text":"武安辛苦了這個監察院去年9月16號有一個內部調查報告指出就針對今天跟今天的主題相關的也就是說海巡署的岸際監控能力他做了一個這個內部的調查報告說由雷達紅外線熱顯像然後再到智慧的岸際監控系統然後最後是人力組成的守望哨大概是四個層面來進行組成但這段時間發生很多的橡皮艇啊就是走這種灰色地帶也好或怎麼樣"},{"start":42.164,"end":64.078,"text":"來做滲透登陸的事件而且其實都在本來海巡署的監偵範圍之內所以它當然是一個有待優化的這樣子的一個防衛的機制那監察院的報告顯示說原因包含第一雷達對於小型目標相比艇的掌控能力當然就有所不足第二是光學目獲系統的自動化跟共同作戰圖像的整合性有待加強"},{"start":64.878,"end":83.001,"text":"第三是守望哨跟雷達組成的尖針有的時候會有空窗的一個狀況所以海巡署應該要檢討跟調整那麼海巡署在報告裡面有講就是說配合國土安全的任性特別預算也就是我們之前通過的要規劃籌建最先進的雷達設備導入AN4能判讀等等那針對光學幕後系統也講也在積極規劃籌建熱顯像系統環島智慧暗記監控系統等等那麼就有這些"},{"start":94.723,"end":112.571,"text":"這樣子的一些說法那今天既然有排熱質詢相關專案報告我們當然就希望可以聽到比較具體的說法因為你當然每一次這個大家都講說我在積極籌備我在做規劃我在做整理但問題是具體的這個目標跟內容是什麼我想這個充分的說明是有必要的所以我今天要問海軍署"},{"start":113.471,"end":130.281,"text":"這第一個這個執行準備計畫你本來就應該要詳細說明首先我問有關暗記雷達系統你講說未來導入AI判讀那熱顯像系統跟智慧型暗記監控系統好像還是要人工方式判讀這個科技跟人力之間如何協調來降低漏判或誤判的風險請回答"},{"start":131.976,"end":157.942,"text":"各位報告非常感謝委員對於我們海巡組的特別預算有支持所以我們很順利的編列了284億的特別預算這中間裡面就是有剛剛委員講的那幾項第一個有關新制雷達的部分我們現在新制雷達是比舊的雷達還聰明我們現在這三個系統裡面我們全部會導入AI"},{"start":159.602,"end":178.238,"text":"去做然後我們有一個另外一個建案就是把整個海域的狀況一個COP整個海域狀況把它連結串聯起來也就是剛剛委員提到的部分就是後續的兩項沒有辦法整合的部分我們會利用這個建案裡面就全部把它整合起來就是全部導入A來做判別然後"},{"start":178.999,"end":194.284,"text":"彼此之間的連結跟這個資訊的互通那所以剛剛委員擔心的這個問題我們會在這一次裡面全部把它一次解決你這個跟你報告講就是一樣的概念嘛就是我們要導入AI我們要進行整備那我想今天要講詳細一點比如說你現在整備到什麼程度了"},{"start":196.384,"end":212.569,"text":"我們現在的岸基雷達我們現在開始在做標案116年雷達跟紅花仙熱影像還有環島智慧型監控跟港軍監控這四項所有的監控系統會在116年全部完成"},{"start":213.129,"end":239.227,"text":"所以116年 年初 年終 年底 全面建置完成那個因為預算結算是在到年底但是有一部分會在115年就會做結束因為它是階段性的因為還考慮到那個招標廠商的量能還有我們的基地的建置所以它不可能一次在一個年度把它做完我們分兩個年度把它全部做完沒關係 會有提供詳細書面報告因為其實既然我們都知道你會往這個方向做而且也應該往這個方向做"},{"start":239.927,"end":266.287,"text":"立法院也通過預算 支持你們往這個方向去做那現在大家在監督進度啊我的預算既然通過了 我執行總要有效果吧到115年年底 今年年底 大家可以做完哪些事116年年初年終年底 分別做完哪些事這個還是要詳細說明啦這免得監察院也提報告 立法院排列專案報告但都沒有進展 這樣是很可惜的事 好不好這我相信既然大家都有做 那就多交代讓大家比較安心第二個是圖資的部分啊"},{"start":266.847,"end":284.945,"text":"這個圖資的部分我們還有一位主委是很會做圖啊還PO臉書對不對但大家知道重點嘛是真正你這些真正掌握情勢的圖資你內部在防止滲透的各式各樣的圖資你能不能做有效的整合然後做大家看的其實是結果你有沒有辦法有效防堵圖資的部分核整備進度是不是說明一下"},{"start":285.405,"end":307.63,"text":"跟委員報告我們現在所有的海面監控的圖資包括國防部包括有軍給的圖資他本來就是那個我們勤職整個早上我們每天早上都會開都在做的嘛就都在做的都在做部分那另外那個剛剛委員有特別提到就是那個管株委員的這個圖資部分我這邊要特別跟說明很多次了不用再說明了啦我知道啦"},{"start":308.03,"end":333.021,"text":"就是說那是他自己在做的我知道但關鍵是你剛剛你講說你本來就有國防部的友軍提供的你自己整理的圖資都會做整合對不對但是今天之所以會被監察院提出來說要檢討就是因為這些圖資顯然掛一漏萬嘛這些特殊的滲透式的小型載具等等還有問題嘛所以我要問你的問題是你在最新的整備或者是升級的過程之中怎麼樣防渡這樣的狀況再次出現回答這個問題就好了謝謝"},{"start":334.454,"end":351.691,"text":"我您講的是說小目標沒有辦法 投資等等 或者說你怎麼整合去防堵可能的滲透風險嘛特別跟委員報告我們現在所有的包括海面 包括空中的情證這些東西都會進到平台裡面來那也就是我們的雷情會分享給國防部跟友軍單位"},{"start":353.212,"end":375.925,"text":"國安部的部分 海情部份 包括海面目標部份也會分享到海巡署來所以它的圖示是共用的 而且在平台上面可以完全呈現所以在剛剛講到有圖示錄像是沒有問題的現在是監察院提醒你的部分是這樣就是說你都有圖嘛 你有很多嘛但你怎麼去分類 然後怎麼精準掌握嘛去避免這樣的狀況出現嘛 這個才是現在的問題吧"},{"start":376.905,"end":396.592,"text":"對 跟委員報案 因為監察院調查那是兩年前的事我們現在已經慢慢的在改善 未來的部分 投資的部分會整合在一起不會有剛剛講的部分就是 這一個是歸這個 那個是歸那個未來會整合在一起 會整個呈現在一個COP整個平台裡面"},{"start":397.752,"end":425.358,"text":"就是說你在每個階段之後你做了哪一些的優化讓那個分裂可以清楚然後讓大家的掌握可以更明白一樣你就按照剛剛前面我們講嘛就是你雷達系統等等的升級有個時間表的改善方式一樣會做書面說明就可以了可以嗎好不好我們就要提醒這個事第三個我要補充一下就是說現在大家都講嘛這無人機可能是未來戰場上很重要的堅真嘛它是戰場上的眼睛一樣那同樣海巡署我在做岸際巡防等等的時候當然也需要無人機那無人機這個"},{"start":426.838,"end":445.34,"text":"如同剛剛您回答的就是說在特別預算裡面也編200多億148億是這個提升你的這個巡查量能無人機的部分40億基本上都通過只有少量凍結所以你該做的還是可以做的預算也都給了對不對但是我看到裡面有寫說你現在只用懸疑型的"},{"start":446.241,"end":460.437,"text":"舊型載具嘛那舊型載具的缺點是這樣第一個續航力50分鐘但是關鍵是抗風係數可能比較低一點這大家都知道無人機怕風嘛吹跑了就不穩了那海上作業那抗風係數是更重要所以是不夠的"},{"start":461.058,"end":477.653,"text":"所以你講說我要做新型的無人機懸疑事辦計畫提升續航力跟這個抗風可是後來引擎技術出了問題啊驗收不合格造成了沒有辦法處理的狀況所以解約了好啦那現在怎麼辦呢我的無人機第二階段我的升級我現在最新的招標狀況我目標新買的無人機的內容是什麼騎乘是什麼"},{"start":482.237,"end":499.433,"text":"這個也是要說明一下我們把它公布起來吧特別跟委員報告我們107年就建立就開始使用無人機我想應該是公共機關裡面最早使用無人機來做徵收跟救生救難但是那一代的無人機因為那個時空環境影響其實它的無人機的效能是很差的"},{"start":500.033,"end":517.036,"text":"這不是 但是現在因為無人機突圍猛進所以我們剛剛委員講的部分講的是我們二代機那二代機因為廠商沒有達到我們的要求所以他就解約但是我們那個案子已經解約完了以後我們重新起案那案子也順利的招標我們現在是有第二代機已經招標結束所以是可以同樣廠商做嗎"},{"start":517.797,"end":537.455,"text":"不一樣 不一樣 不一樣 完全不一樣那第二代的無人機的滯空 抗風 跟徵收效能比第一代好太多了好太多了所以我們已經 我們在今年的六月份會交機那目前是在做接機跟教育訓練接機 現在是四月 所以還有一個多月全部交完嘛 還是分批交機"},{"start":539.076,"end":567.102,"text":"全部交完還是分批全部交全部都交完OK有要補充說明的嗎可以補充說明沒關係是好是全部交機是我們希望這次引擎這些都沒有問題沒有問題那個規格非常好而且我們有做POC整個實際實測過了從嘉義飛到澎湖再回來OK也都測試過了測試過了我們希望這個東西如期如質的來進行整備跟處理是主要是這樣我想立法院對於這些東西基本上所謂是支持的是好海軍署請回謝謝好謝謝委員"},{"start":568.742,"end":595.567,"text":"這 國安局長有請請國安局長好 謝謝主席喔 劉委員好局長 辛苦了這個這個我 我請教一下啦這當然您比較專業 但沒有關係啦這監察院的調查報告裡面曾經有指出喔 這國防部啊這為了避免滲透嘛 我們今天討論的是這個主題嘛避免這個不提高這個對於滲透的警覺性所以國防部有設計 比如說天威測考 比如說不確"},{"start":596.647,"end":625.331,"text":"這自己派特戰部隊去做試驗嘛看看我們的平常的官兵在營舍裡面等等有沒有是否具備充足的這個警覺性那有做了很多次的這個做為一個考評的標準這當然都是很好的事情啊提升警覺性這是強化戰備的一部分那國安局長你從國安的角度就我們的政府機關等等這樣的一個角度你有沒有相關的這樣子一些機制或是測驗啊因為最近好多共諜一樣很危險對不對我們內部集合把控的這樣子的一些機制你的努力是什麼你要不要說明一下"},{"start":625.891,"end":648.412,"text":"因為這部分 因為國安局也是中共滲透的重要目標我們本身在不管是保防或反情報滲透都有一個機制在那包括有定期的進行移測那移測大概全中華民國政府裡面做的最積極最平面的應該是本局做測謊的概念另外只要有任何的出國回來也都還要再進行"},{"start":649.153,"end":670.17,"text":"相關的一個歸尋跟移測來避免到在海外有被接觸的一個狀況那另外我們的督察單位也都會有定期的來針對我們的同仁做必要的一個訪談跟清詢那來提醒同仁注意一下回憶一下最近有沒有被接觸所以我們是有一個機制在運作你剛剛提的都是有關於局裡面內部的"},{"start":672.191,"end":689.152,"text":"集合跟建設其實每一局都要有這樣的一個觀念就因應這樣的可能的狀況那你作為國安的這個主管機關那其他局處的針對內部的這樣子的一個反對滲透或者是防制滲透的這樣的各種措施啊政府各機關對不對因為他是無所不在嘛那你們的做法是什麼"},{"start":689.292,"end":707.078,"text":"所以我們大概分幾個部分一個部分是把我們自己本身局內的這樣的一個反滲透的機制把它完善好那另外就是跟我們的國安情報機關總共11個機關我們也把我們的經驗跟這11個機關來做分享那另外就是推展到政府的部分那因為調查局是負責我們政府整體的安查跟特查"},{"start":707.478,"end":725.605,"text":"那調查局也是我們的國安情報機關裡面的協同情報機關所以我們也會把這部分有些過去的一些案例的一些狀況讓調查局在進行政府的這些相關的反情報的滲透當中也能夠依照過去的一個經驗來做一個比較完善機制的建立"},{"start":725.925,"end":740.292,"text":"好 那本席提醒一下嘛 因為各 其實這應該是各個部會啦 甚至是其他都要有一些警覺性要有所提高那國安局這個地方作為 你可能是示範 或者是你內部有一些有做合理的分享 然後分不同的層次 警告的敏感度我們也有針對一些比較高風險的局處 可能要做部會啦"},{"start":746.034,"end":761.049,"text":"目標對象也是有一個高風險的名單我本期在這邊做一下提醒希望這個部分看看彼此之間借財一些情報防治的這些經驗能夠讓滲透的狀況可以降到最低謝謝 國安局長請回主席我可以再要一分鐘嗎我請陸委會副主委請陸委會副主委謝謝主席"},{"start":775.919,"end":804.668,"text":"委員好 副主委吳安這很多委員今天都趁機講一下這個政協會的一些狀況那我直接切入重點因為今天總統府說嘛這個實相措施以及等等相關的這個後續如果有誠意就要跟政府來進行協商那當然嘛這個世界各國也很多人都講樂於對話對話也不要只跟在野黨對話如果跟執政黨跟政府可以有效對話都對於緩解兩岸關係是有一定正面的一個幫助副主委你同意這樣的看法嗎"},{"start":806.127,"end":826.017,"text":"同意啊所有的兩岸之間的措施都是應該跟台灣民選政府對話的你講得真好現在總統府現在講說有誠意就要來協商你覺得這只是一個純粹的政治喊話呢還是有打算付諸實際行動我們其實已經跟對岸講了很多次了譬如說團客的觀光"},{"start":827.477,"end":847.791,"text":"這個部分我們希望能夠來協商小兩會的能夠來磋商但是他們到現在為止一直不肯回覆嘛所以就卡在這裡所以我今天問了嘛就是說今天既然大家都講對話這件事好像蠻重要的我們先不設大家彼此的政治立場或者是怎麼也好但是我現在要問的只有你現在陸委會介紹的只是要把它正式付諸行動了嗎"},{"start":849.193,"end":862.838,"text":"還是就只是今天講一講新聞對付過去就算了因為每一件事情他們單方面宣布之後我們就要看他有沒有要找我們討論然後或者是說他們希望他們要怎麼樣接下來進行那"},{"start":864.899,"end":890.178,"text":"所以譬如說他們昨天講說這個上海福建的自由行那這個部分我們就等他們提出來他們要有一個正式的東西不是說發個新聞稿發個新聞稿我們沒辦法處理事情這本席不反對啦就是說各個政黨執政也好債也好如果有辦法用對話的方式來降低兩岸衝突的風險我想對於國家安全都有一定幫助它不是唯一的方法但它是有效的方法之一"},{"start":890.748,"end":917.181,"text":"那我現在比較擔心的是因為這一連串的過程國內當然就草翻天了嘛對不對那我現在想的是這政府屢次喊話你們也希望跟中國大陸有一個穩定的對話管道但是好像一直都沒有辦法往前推進所以你的立場跟你的方法之間總要有總要可以對稱嘛就是我有你執政黨有執政黨要堅持的地方但是你在堅持這樣立場的時候你用什麼樣的方法可以既堅持你的立場又完成對話的目標陸委會針對這樣有沒有準備"},{"start":920.39,"end":943.465,"text":"如果對方還是堅持什麼九二共識反獨的立場才能夠對話協商那這個基本上可能性就不大但是我們希望說兩岸之間除了這個政治前提之外大家畢竟都還有很多往來的需求嘛那如果他們硬是要抓住這個前提否則其他什麼都不談的話那就沒辦法"},{"start":944.124,"end":954.842,"text":"所以你剛剛講的其實還是立場嘛就是說你政府有政府要守住這我完全尊重因為大家政治立場本來就可以不一樣民主社會是這樣但在立場跟方法出現衝突的時候你的選擇是什麼我們政府的選擇是什麼"},{"start":956.294,"end":983.295,"text":"政府的選擇是中華民國的生存啊中華民國如果不能生存下去那其他利益都不用談了所以某些政治前提如果你危及到中華民國的生存那其他的說你說能夠賣多少的鳳梨或是柑橘所以我就講眼下你現在面對這些狀況的時候你的選擇是什麼現在就是所謂有思想措施啊也沒有談到別的東西對吧"},{"start":984.667,"end":1008.135,"text":"這十項措施從我們的角度來看其實就是新瓶裝舊酒啦新瓶裝舊酒其實都不是什麼大禮包啦現在大家講的好像很了不起其實在我們看來是一碗甜不辣想要換到一盅佛跳牆大概就是這樣所以在這個過程中會選擇堅持立場方法就算了是吧"},{"start":1009.135,"end":1034.657,"text":"我們還是希望對方能夠如果你想要做什麼那你就可以直接跟我們政府來對話現在是溫情喊話看有沒有辦法成就這個事沒關係溫情喊話也是方法之一沒關係本席不做任何預設立場我們中華民國現在需要的是什麼需要很多方法大家都有不同立場我們已經很清楚了大家都知道但是我們需要有解決事情的方法這是我給陸委會你們的本職工作是促進交流這是本席的層次的提醒時間已經到了我們就不多談了謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168492","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168492","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5655ee4938da65e15a9b5fbe56b15a03e63d9eaeca1783e3c80866d4b6cb3fd63c3fe24fbfd0fd505ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳玉珍","委員發言時間":"12:25:00 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以前的署長水利啊什麼這些東西都是中央在花錢做的農民漁牧防疫都是中央衛福部也有你看檢疫這些都是這些單位做但是這些事情在金門都是金門縣政府做欸主席長你知道嗎"},{"start":190.182,"end":191.023,"text":"這個金門市有自來水廠誰的"},{"start":207.403,"end":235.517,"text":"那金門縣政府 誰出言 金門縣政府出錢啊但是委員 我跟你說 以前金門會缺水但是這幾年我們在金門投資了相當的金額你們投資很多做海淡廠 一天可以出多少水 你知道嗎一天啊 金門大概蓄水量差不多是2.6萬噸左右我們的供給量是海淡廠一天可以多少 你知道嗎4000噸 最多多遠的 水之遠哪遠 剩下水哪裡來的"},{"start":236.897,"end":253.493,"text":"剩下水哪裡來的 你在這邊回答剩下水哪裡來的今天不是要講水 今天不是要講水 今天不是要講水今天不是要講水 今天不是要講水今天不是要講水 今天不是要講水今天不是要講水今天不是要講水今天不是要講水今天不是要講水今天不是要講水今天不是要講水今天不是要講水今天不是要講水今天不是要講水今天不是要講水今天不是要講水今天不是要講水今天不是要講水今天不是要講水今天不是要講水今天不是要講水今天不是要講水"},{"start":255.214,"end":279.153,"text":"虎庫這個水哪裡來的?虎庫的水是天然的天然掉下來的喔?錯了除了你當然也知道還有說大陸飲水大陸來的嘛一天大陸來兩萬噸的水啊所以我現在講的是說我現在不是要跟你討論大陸來兩萬噸的水基本上百分之八十的水每一天都是大陸來的我不是要討論這個議題我要討論的是這些東西自來水供應啊什麼這些還有那個錢啊都是我們在出嘛你們連那個借錢不夠國發會跟你們經濟部的錢不夠我們投資了四十億喔"},{"start":284.938,"end":304.57,"text":"台電還包括電網設施在那個地方那是台電你現在講水就好了你以前水律師你講水就好台電等一下講水對不對所以我的意思是說剛剛主計長推說給國發會國發會上來一下我今天不是要提水水我們在總職群會來問來推給國發會說還有離島基金那我們來看離島基金你看請問今年的這個離島基金"},{"start":305.868,"end":324.066,"text":"那個 國發會 今年那個計畫你們給我們過了多少個案子我們提了36個案子 你們給我們多少個案子新興案子基本上我們4月20號我們會 工作小組會再討論那要等那個會議討論完以後我們才會出審通過只有兩個案子欸"},{"start":325.776,"end":349.985,"text":"36個案子只有給出審通過這我們跟你們要的資料應該不是正確的資料這是國發會提供的喔大概有36個提案20個具創新轉型域的20個新案的只有兩個通過原因是什麼來你們也給我們答案了這個是國發會給我們答案說因為請基金應該作為公務預算的助力是吧"},{"start":351.107,"end":360.712,"text":"基金請大家盡量利用公共預算這是國防會說的委員 幕僚給我的意見是我們初步建議至少21案"},{"start":362.188,"end":385.205,"text":"至少21案那你願意給我們立島多少錢就是那個金額目前還在那個大概跟上一期不會差太多大部分的錢要金門縣政府自己出吧這個數據就是我們立島基金撥補給地方政府的這一塊所以主計長我要講的是這樣子喔"},{"start":389.208,"end":415.837,"text":"我講的是這樣子喔就是說現在很多部會啊在給預算的時候都說要推給這個基金嘛推給國發會啦都要推給國發會但事實上很多錢本來各部會就應該要編您了解我的意思嗎你們把我們的財力分級往上提升變成第二級以後對金門我不否認我們這個就是財化法通過以後我們增加了增加了很多錢沒錯但是因為我們也負擔了很多中央應該做的事情"},{"start":418.924,"end":435.813,"text":"所以我們承擔了這麼久以後 原來就有後 就必須一直這樣忍受下去嗎我們幫你承擔了50年 原來就應該中央負擔的東西是不是 你有沒有想過我們都沒有講半句話 一直在中央業務 一直地方自己來做水的部分怎麼來做 你們就覺得這是原來就有負擔"},{"start":440.842,"end":469.742,"text":"是嘛 所以我又回頭來講我這邊講過很多次就是說財力來講我們基本也是離島嘛你就要把我們跟澎湖馬祖相同看待嘛財化法對離島有特別的用途你知道齁 就是那一題齁有特別 你那個辦法是不是可以幫我修一下你看一下這一題你沒有 我說按照那個辦法不然我們把第二集修成跟澎湖馬祖一樣啊要跟離島 難道你要把它變第一集嗎所有的公式都是公開透明是 但是財化法裡頭"},{"start":472.352,"end":483.244,"text":"中央對直轄市及縣市政府補助辦法第三條第一款有說原住民不受財力集資的限制你知道這一條吧中央對直轄市及縣市政府補助辦法第三條第一款"},{"start":494.332,"end":522.451,"text":"那按照中華民國憲法呢憲法第十條有規定喔這個國家要保障離島地區的居民生計與發展這是跟原住民一樣的保障那原住民既然可以明確的可以不受財力集赤的限制那按照憲法的這個權力平衡這個原則應該是離島要比照這個一樣的做法嘛與原住民同的做法嘛我們不要 我們沒跟原住民一樣金門沒跟原住民一樣也比澎懷馬祖還不好"},{"start":524.687,"end":532.846,"text":"我知道所有原因都是因為我們有金酒會賺錢我知道我們會賺錢那是我們很努力你應該要多一點鼓勵的機制"},{"start":533.826,"end":559.395,"text":"是 我們也希望能夠盡量來鼓勵啦但是以中央來講 中央沒有錢啦中央錢都分到地方去了中央沒有錢你不要幫他們採貨再沒有錢也比金門縣政府有錢啊中央應該做的事情 什麼水利啊 港務啊什麼防疫啊 全部都歸地方自己做 自己出錢那本來就是地方自治的"},{"start":559.975,"end":589.535,"text":"是 沒有 剛剛講的那些事情都不是地方制度我剛剛問過水利 那個以前 我們次長了他以前水利署署長 做得很好的署長那些是中央做的還是地方做的台灣自來水公司是地方的嗎是哪一個縣市的不是 像地方港舖 金門以前店都還自己的 醫院都還自己的那我們現在水 我們一直希望中央可以收回去中央也不收回去 我們全部都要自己做全部自己做就算了 你們給我們一點錢嘛或者 我們人借錢的利息都要我們自己出 對不對這個經濟部知道吧"},{"start":590.736,"end":608.268,"text":"那個利息也跟你們爭取那麼久,我們還幫你們墊錢,還要再墊利息,這樣有什麼意圖利?你知道我在說哪一筆對不對?我們對離島都是一視同仁啦,那客人基本上比較有錢啦,你看那個...你不要一直說我們有錢,謝謝相對於澎湖..."},{"start":609.696,"end":632.747,"text":"是 那是因為我們自己很努力嘛如果我們今天不努力呢 變敗家子咧不行嘛 對不對所以你們要鼓勵我們嘛所以財力的等級就是看地方政府他自有裁員的能力啊這是全國一致標準那至於我們帶水電的這個所謂的基礎設施的這個部分也是依照這樣子的方式來去做"},{"start":633.687,"end":639.353,"text":"像你剛說的海淡廠才4000噸對不對金門一天要來兩萬多噸的水兩萬二點需要兩萬三千噸的水其中有兩萬噸是從中國大陸來的是不是那如果說所以你是要幫我們多做一點韌性"},{"start":655.251,"end":676.825,"text":"水利署會跟金門縣政府一起來合作水利署會跟金門縣政府一起來合作這我上次就問過囉這是總執行會問這一題我告訴你我跟卓院長在治水的部分它有一些系統性的治水那這個計畫也是全國一致的標準如何協助地方就依照財力分子大家一起來努力"},{"start":678.186,"end":697.486,"text":"郭志慧在當部長的時候我上次總執行他就回答過了我們一天只有4000噸的自由水如果要海淡廠只有4000噸我們現在一天從大陸來2萬多噸你說要靠自己你就告訴我我在總執行要提供資料看你們到底一天可以讓我們有多少噸的自由水源假如今天大陸把水龍頭關起來的時候當時啊"},{"start":699.668,"end":724.745,"text":"這個大陸飲水的時候我們就是要求說我們事實上我們也協助把服務的菌蟹包括管蟹包括自來水包括海膽水我知道都做了但是老天爺沒有下雨就是沒有水起碼至少要保足7乘5以上的自有的需求量你今天就假定那個水門頭關起來的時候老天爺都沒有下雨 旱災因為常常都是沒有下雨這麼多人都有旱災如果沒有倒來水是都沒有水的"},{"start":726.827,"end":728.429,"text":"你可以把資料準備在下面 我們總之訓練的時候來討論 好嗎好 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抱歉我剛剛講錯了10%天然氣是10%對不對 對那其實最近我們上次訪美的時候也有聽到說未來我們是希望說跟美方特別是在阿拉斯加的合作要增加包含天然氣的合作可能性這個部分未來有沒有辦法擴張"},{"start":112.858,"end":134.755,"text":"多元的能源料源這是我們一直努力的方向以今年二月為例的話中油公司已經跟美方簽訂另外一個新的長約這個新的長約本來是下半年要提貨的而中油公司也提前到六月來提貨至於你談的阿拉斯加的狀況他還沒有進行到FID現在是意向書"},{"start":136.001,"end":146.488,"text":"他還沒有到FID的程序那中永公司會跟相關的阿拉斯加的開發商依照他的資料在進行評估之中"},{"start":147.486,"end":173.543,"text":"好 謝謝因為就我們看到的資訊2024年的到2024年的資訊那澳洲是38%左右那卡達大概25%那美方的部分大概是10%這個數字大概是這樣子所以因應風險我們可能未來一定要做一個全面性結構性的調整因為看起來這個狀況是已經會發生的那開源 節流特別是開源的部分我們會緊盯這個部分是不是可以請經濟部來"},{"start":175.564,"end":180.57,"text":"想辦法來檢討一下趕快在近期的部分我們就是針對於要通過赫姆茲海峽的部分"},{"start":181.638,"end":200.614,"text":"就假設他不進來了所以從其他的貨源來調印我們用低加90的方式 針對未來這個90天的所有的我們需要的這個貨氣的部分都已經有排成而我每天也在針對這個部分跟相關的單位來進行檢討比如說這幾天其實都有這個美國的這個貨氣來靠瀉還有其他的地方的貨氣來靠瀉"},{"start":207.119,"end":227.811,"text":"好 謝謝經濟部我們做最壞的打算 當然做最好的準備那剛才提到除了來源之外當然還有就是接收跟儲存的部分那目前我們有三座 只有三座那還在努力的去做市街的這個環評那我們當然知道說經濟部應該是有規劃說擴大浮動式接收站的部分是"},{"start":229.265,"end":244.085,"text":"我認為不動式接收站在緊急狀況之下它變成是可能要成為一個新常態因為如果我們實質上面的infrastructure的建設它可能都要數年甚至是數年都沒有辦法來完成的話那"},{"start":245.065,"end":273.518,"text":"緊急的應變可能要成為新常態所以擴大這一種浮動式的能力我想是這三年內的重中之重那這個部分經濟部是不是可以來考慮來擴大這樣子的這個部分我們已經在做了擴大儲運的方法有很多種那不管是你剛剛講的所謂的地面型的接收站或是你剛剛講的在這個浮運的這個方式那這個我們一直在緊盯中有的相關的準備作業"},{"start":275.151,"end":285.877,"text":"我是希望說浮動的部分可能在緊急的狀況之下它的需要它急迫性是比較高的因為我們等我們全部做完的話也都已經超過2027、2028、2029了這個部分可以思考一下好 謝謝謝謝陳冠廷委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"168490","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168490","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5655ee4938da65e184e4fb2c34369c0281f6660fd2e34289c80866d4b6cb3fd6fd79bbc0b0a3b3945ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"12:10:52 - 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謝謝"},{"start":139.839,"end":140.184,"text":"請副主委"},{"start":154.033,"end":173.825,"text":"這一次的這個習政會當然我覺得很重要的一個框架就是說這個堅持九二共識然後多了這個反對台獨這幾個字眼那當然現在我所比較擔心的事情就是現在當然這一個所謂國共之間的框架看起來其實跟這個之前的這一個蓮湖並沒有什麼太大的差別看起來沒有什麼實質的進展"},{"start":175.766,"end":193.695,"text":"但是如果說今天像這樣的一個框架它已經由這樣的一個會面決定之後比如說我們來看我們的立法院有沒有可能比如說我們去修發展觀光條例又或者說我們去動這個離島建設條例又或者說和平協議的話其實最主要是兩岸條例的修法"},{"start":194.355,"end":218.957,"text":"那我們這邊會不會發生這個不知道但至少我們現在看到已經發生的就是比如說我們的國防這個預算現在還實質上被卡在這裡嘛總預算其實也是那像這一些呢實質上去弱化我們台灣國防跟國安的事情這個是實質上已經發生了那我現在比較擔心的就是因為他們現在就是發出了這個所謂會台的這個政策"},{"start":219.657,"end":240.748,"text":"那我相信梁副主委一定很熟悉之前這個所謂的藍八線就是他們想要只跟這個藍營執政的縣市去發展不管是相關的農產品的交流啦或者說中客的交流啦等等那我們現在對於這一種因為畢竟我們跟中國之間的交流照理說這個都是由中央政府或者由中央政府授權來做"},{"start":241.989,"end":259.644,"text":"那如果說他們現在漸漸的開始由地方政府然後根據他們現在這個會台措施然後自行的不管是簽訂相關的合約啦或者說在根本沒有合約的狀況之下時時就已經展開了進展這個對我們中央政府來講我們要如何因應"},{"start":261.957,"end":287.467,"text":"其實委員所講的這個現象本來就已經在發生中了譬如說台東跟對岸去做一個特別的協議有關於鳳梨世家這個部分然後指定哪些包裝廠或是哪些農場可以它的鳳梨世家是可以過去的"},{"start":288.467,"end":315.338,"text":"所以大概類似的事情都會發生不過現在的狀況可能我們台灣的狀況可能跟過去來講我覺得是有一些比較進步的地方也就是說譬如說以鳳梨世家來講雖然當初談成了這個協議但到現在恢復的量不大那為什麼因為第一個中國方面的經濟不好內需不強"},{"start":316.394,"end":342.621,"text":"他現在的很多國營企業他以前都是叫直接叫國營企業來買這個台灣的某一個地方的農產品等於是大家這個要一個Quota要一個責任制他現在現在也很困難做這些事情那包括那你說像鳳梨世家現在在雲南在海南島他的整個種植的面積都比台灣大了五倍以上不止所以他現在種植的種植的又便宜其實"},{"start":344.906,"end":369.161,"text":"台灣的鳳梨石家其實在那邊已經競爭力是不高了那所以對於農產品這一塊我們倒不是特別擔心而且我覺得農民這幾年來已經學到教訓了那所以這個部分的話我們覺得還好也就是說總的看起來這一次的這個十項的所謂的十項的會台措施"},{"start":369.901,"end":388.761,"text":"大概都是過去的東西然後重新包裝一下新的東西不多但是他換到的東西確實是很多等於是用一碗甜不辣換到了一盅佛跳牆這個佛跳牆是什麼這個就是整個台灣最大在野檔"},{"start":391.075,"end":414.31,"text":"到了北京然後在政治上面做出一些承諾然後譬如說什麼和平框架等等這些在政治上做出一些承諾然後向國際社會發出了在我們看來是一個錯誤的訊息譬如說你說我們不要外力的介入或是等等這樣子這些說法都會影響到台灣在國際社會上面的人家對你的看法"},{"start":414.83,"end":438.536,"text":"以及人家對你一旦有事的時候他們到底要怎麼對待你因為你的最大在野黨已經說過不要外力介入了那人家要怎麼幫忙你或是軍售上面人家為什麼還需要賣武器給你這些事情我覺得這個是北京這一次宣傳上的最重大的勝利但是他付出的所謂的利多"},{"start":439.847,"end":459.622,"text":"就是這麼一點點而已對我覺得這個就是當然是一個算是加強版的這個所謂的九二共識那他給國際事務的訊息就剛剛跟梁副主委提到的其實是非常的不妙那另外呢剛剛有提到就是說這一個農產品確實我們的農民其實已經學到這個相關的養套殺的這個課程在之前都經歷過了"},{"start":461.103,"end":484.94,"text":"我們現在其實說真的我們非中國之類的外銷其實已經佔了四五十億那其實對中國來講是一直在往下降已經降到十億以下了所以照理說我們的農民知道這件事情但是宣傳上他們還是一直會不斷的講說你這個世家你這些世家到底是不是反對台獨是不是有支持一國兩制這個對他們來講才是重點能不能驗出什麼蟲等等之類的"},{"start":486.902,"end":504.845,"text":"對於當然說我們的農民的警覺性我覺得希望這個陸委會也還是能夠加強協助我們農委會去跟我們的農民來做宣導我覺得這樣當然是一個但第二個我現在比較擔心的就是觀光因為觀光一直以來也是他們就是適合他們拿來做宣傳的工具跟農產品類似那"},{"start":505.365,"end":525.736,"text":"這一個所謂的自由行因為中國的觀光客他就算要來到這一邊他其實也要向其實戶口所在地的公安機關出入進去辦理這個所謂的大陸居民往來台灣這個通行證個人旅遊的簽註所以像這種最終可以操縱誰過來這可能還是跟中國的公安是有一定程度的關聯"},{"start":527.037,"end":543.358,"text":"那這個對我們來講是一定程度的風險就是說對方的宣傳當然是一直不斷地強調可以為台灣帶來利益雖然到最後都是一條龍那利益也是回歸到中國去但另外一個對我們來講很大的一個風險是他的公安介入公安介入他來的人他又會有另外一個程度的風險"},{"start":544.119,"end":557.172,"text":"那針對這件事情我們現在就跟我剛剛提到的藍八線又是一模一樣的案例就是說我們這些城市我們先不要管說之前國共論壇講說什麼要什麼AI交流數據交流什麼醫療交流那個完全都是風險但"},{"start":558.956,"end":574.786,"text":"撇開國共亂談講的這些東西光是觀光這件事情所能夠造成的風險其實就已經非常巨大那我今天看到這個台中市長盧秀燕她也提到就是說希望盡快中央來做對決我覺得這都是很危險的事物"},{"start":577.889,"end":595.262,"text":"大陸人要來台灣本來他第一道程序就是他要向當地的公安局申請到進入台灣地區的證件這樣子那所以不管是團客也好或是自由行或者是一般商務旅客或者是等等其他專案的"},{"start":597.304,"end":621.38,"text":"都是一樣的也就是說大陸這邊他自己要先肯放行才可以所以不只是自由行在其他的部分其他用各種名義來台灣的大陸人其實都有同樣的他首先有一個他自己會審核然後會願意放哪些人不放哪些人那個是他們在決定"},{"start":622.721,"end":637.461,"text":"但是對我們來講自由行或是團客的部分其實都是兩邊必須要協商的那不能說你當初2019年自由行說斷就斷現在你說要恢復就又恢復這個"},{"start":640.505,"end":661.172,"text":"對我們來說的話世界上沒有這麼簡單的事情你要斷就斷你要說恢復就恢復那這個台灣政府有台灣政府的立場所以不管是自由行還是團客我們都希望說先經過小兩會的商討再說這樣子但是到目前為止我們之前談團客的問題他們並沒有回復我們的要求"},{"start":665.774,"end":691.369,"text":"那自由行的部分這個也是他現在說片面所講的所以我們還是在等他看看他們會不會回覆我們說雙邊協商的要求謝謝好那這邊就再請陸委會幫忙做把關那另外還有一個問題就是我想之後到內政委員會再來問就是報導者有報導一系列跟這個台北網紅節有關的這一些消網紅的這些統戰網路這個當然其實在我過往的研究已經也是看了很久"},{"start":691.909,"end":702.749,"text":"但看起來有一些新的跡象或有一個新的pattern那關於這個部分我想說就等到之後內政委會有機會的話我再來請教陸委會好謝謝謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"168489","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168489","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5655ee4938da65e119144de723f50fc7e63d9eaeca1783e3c80866d4b6cb3fd6e4b6af63088ab7755ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"12:13:03 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那所以我們往下看非常時期網路流量的分配跟設施使用使用關係要管定所以金管會曾經有一個金融資安任性發展藍圖所謂的兵推那時候金融業的暫時兵推台灣的資安大會也曾經推動一個這是民間辦的 他說要對什麼基礎關鍵設施的維運 數位海峽 資訊安全 去中心化 這麼多請問國發會"},{"start":312.259,"end":328.592,"text":"你們有沒有包括這些除了道路交通的使用的優先順位之外包括網路跟其他的基礎關鍵設施的使用你們也去訂定一個流量跟優先順位我想這個應該不是國發會的主意很好 我都沒有在場的人"},{"start":330.185,"end":351.11,"text":"我是說舉例好 你說是出發部 沒問題我接下來還是由你能事往下看最後呢我要請主席站起來請主席總書針對非常時期我國高度仰賴進口的原物料以及必須性做事前的預估必要的用量推估一個月給一個書面報告可以嗎這是主席總書啊主席長可以嗎"},{"start":354.77,"end":382.078,"text":"你們是統計嘛統計要做積極的統計不要做事後的統計而已但是問題是說他比較偏經濟部你可以跟經濟部會商今天你踢了兩個球一個踢到國發會一個踢到經濟部謝謝委員無論是針對於災害的預防我們有災害準備計畫包括動源物資包括油包括電的部分我們都有相關的對但是不只這些所以我要國發會不要我要主計總署對這些進行一個預估好再來請國發會輪到國發會了國發會"},{"start":384.919,"end":403.831,"text":"我們現在講的不是書發部的書會設施是包括關鍵基礎設施包括公路包括網路包括這些服務設施的使用宣會國發會後續用書面報告來做回覆好不好因為這個涉及的相關部會非常多國發會來彙整其他單位好不好委員希望我們提書面報告我們會請相關部會來提供給我們來彙整謝謝主席 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4,"text":"接著請油耗委員發言謝謝召委那有請陳主委有請陳主委"},{"start":22.438,"end":39.731,"text":"還是再次感謝工程會對南投許多災修的協助在這裡還是再次表達感謝在剛才的話今天的許多的議題通通環繞著不管是濾清還有包括許多原物料的目前制度性風險的問題"},{"start":41.292,"end":63.309,"text":"那其實目前來講公共工程那也是一個國家重大的一個建設發展的火車頭那同樣的在目前來講擔心的不管是缺錢缺人缺料那我相信在目前全球化的風險以及包括這次的美伊戰爭中東的這個衝突之下那其實大家需要做一些提前的預警跟預防"},{"start":64.15,"end":91.11,"text":"那在這裡的話除了我們在這個料的部分之前那我想要請教一下主委目前賴清德總統他有提到這個要引進這個印度的勞工來台灣從事這個相關的工作那在年底的話就要開放1000位那我想問一下對於目前這個引進印度外勞的這個部分公共城委員會是持什麼樣的立場跟態度"},{"start":91.704,"end":111.71,"text":"我這個尊重勞動部的政策我們因為不是我們主管業務所以工程會沒有特別意見就看整個中二政策或是勞動部他的政策那目前整體在國家中大建設工程或是這些公共工程的缺工狀況是沒有缺工還是都是順利的"},{"start":112.31,"end":136.107,"text":"如果說有個案缺工狀況尤其是公務工程的部分公務工程委內會協助業者跟勞動部專案來讓移工進來這是我們有潛力可循我們的角色就是在公務工程如果說個案有缺工那我們會去跟勞動部來協調"},{"start":137.668,"end":162.429,"text":"好 那今天來講勞動部當然是打算引進這印度的移工進來但是因為這個在台灣來講過去這樣子的一個不管是文化或者是宗教信仰或是包括他們生活習慣習性的部分都跟目前我們台灣的許多的一些生活形態是有蠻大的一個不同那我想問一下 那目前在移工工程的缺工狀況"},{"start":163.59,"end":174.964,"text":"那這樣子的引進對於我們台灣的這種公共城的就是勞動力的補充來講是真的有幫助嗎還是說反而實際上的效果不大"},{"start":175.803,"end":196.202,"text":"包委真的是引進來國的移工不是工程會的業務啦所以這個要尊重勞動部他的政策那主委回的保守啊因為缺工問題是事實但是沒有關係因為這個部分當然你才是尊重勞動部他們的立場跟業務啊那我能夠理解但是本席還是在這裡表達"},{"start":196.883,"end":221.823,"text":"那目前來講缺工問題確實嚴重那但是引進的這個移工還是不是跟本勞之間的相對的這個競合關係我覺得還是要去思考那如何能夠刺激誘因讓本勞還能夠投入在公共工程的一個勞動力短缺的部分的一個填補上那有時候如果是直接去開放的這個印度的外勞還移工來這邊台灣來進行"},{"start":223.644,"end":250.869,"text":"那是不是實際上對公共工程的缺工有幫助還是到最後反而衍生出更多的社會問題我覺得其實工程會主委可能也要跟勞動部這邊來表達還其實真的需求跟意見那不能夠直接賴總統或許是美意可是實際上如果照社會的環境跟整體的一個勞動力的市場來講造成更大的衝擊我覺得可能是不是這個移工來的狀況需要再做討論跟檢討"},{"start":253.615,"end":280.848,"text":"那同樣的那缺料的部分那在目前的這個美伊衝突在中東的石油危機卓偉你認為會越演越烈嗎這個也是國安的判斷可能要請教外交部會比較清楚 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我們工程會這邊管的大概是力清混泥土我們不直接去管力清油那力清混泥土的部分當然是有力清工會這邊有來函可是同時我們也都有詢問北中南東各個力清的這些公司去調查這個行情"},{"start":447.774,"end":461.752,"text":"那這個行情大概過去我們調查的時候大概是三月底四月初這個階段不過那個時候大概也從源頭這邊主委跟在行政院這些經濟部或是院長這邊大家副院長其實大家都一直在掌握這個狀況那所以現在"},{"start":465.436,"end":487.628,"text":"接下來大概確定說是供給會大於需求啦其實依照歷史經驗來講生產量供給量其實都會大於這個階段的需求量那價格上漲那是一時可能有一些市場的反應恐慌的反應當情接下來其實公平會也會持續去關心這個價格那因為時間有限那我大致上就補充一下"},{"start":488.268,"end":507.421,"text":"所以說目前來講的話其實原有主要這個能夠用這些例行的這種重有還是在中東啦那像美國俄羅斯的部分尤其是美國部分是沒有辦法去用在這一種的項目上那其實目前看得下國際震驚情勢在中東的戰爭會越演越烈那所以說在經濟部他們是不是了解到這個原料"},{"start":508.301,"end":533.189,"text":"石油是不是能夠真的來台灣的這個部分不能過於樂觀啦不能過於樂觀那同時現在來講是還在一個我們這邊沒戰事的一個狀況那是一般的基本需求還有原料上面的這種基礎建設那坦白講我們要肯定鄭麗文主席的和平之旅那能夠讓兩岸來講目前不交戰火的這種機率下降那不然假如"},{"start":534.309,"end":550.283,"text":"這個整個中東的一個戰爭火藥庫到時候燒到亞太地區的話那其實各種的戰備假如需要的這種存量的這種基礎建設的原物料那都是沒有大家在顧忌的 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付款金額約26.58億元在工地安全方面本會將職安納入查核重點並以勞動部盡力橫向通報機制針對常見重大職災辦理專案查核高風險工程則聘請具備職安專長或證照查核委員參與職安表現也列入金職獎評審標準重大職災案件不能參選"},{"start":1943.402,"end":1958.628,"text":"此外為補充花東地區土木工程人才本會補助宜安大學在花蓮車站開設土木工程學分班協助在地人員考取土木國考就近培養人才目前有一百多人報名"},{"start":1959.748,"end":1972.765,"text":"已經於115年3月23日開訓最後各界關注的政府採購法修法本會去年11月預告修法草案在兩個月預告期間收到很多工商團體機關及民眾的寶貴意見在確保"},{"start":1977.151,"end":1998.01,"text":"制度運作穩定並尊重社會共識原則下本會調整修法期程於凝聚各界共識後再提送大會審議其中三家廠商才能開標的規定是從民國39年稽查條例沿用至今當時招標尚未電子化"},{"start":1998.57,"end":2024.559,"text":"本會的修法初衷是考量時空環境改變且WTO政府採購協定GPA及美英歐盟日本等先進國家並沒有三加的限制本會基於加速行政流程及降低管制成本在強制採購資訊提早公開的前提下提出三次加速的建議不過各界陸續提出許多建設性的觀點認為現階段"},{"start":2026.92,"end":2053.26,"text":"仍有三家限制的必要以確保採購品質以透明度因此本會考量制度嚴格以實務需求後決定保留現行條文不做調整本會也了解任何制度調整都需要兼顧市場秩序機關管理能力及整體運作的穩定性因此後續將持續整合各界意見並就整體影響進行長期"},{"start":2054.941,"end":2066.986,"text":"的配套評估在充分凝聚共識後再依照程序推動修法本會將持續推動採購電子化去年電子公告招標與決標約458,000筆電子領標比例達99.57%電子投標財務以工程採購率達成率分別為58.9%及28.8%超過年度目標"},{"start":2079.98,"end":2105.636,"text":"本會也建立施工廠商及參與人員履歷制度協助各機關採購選商、履約管理目前累積超過1.3萬家廠商以16萬筆工程人員資料供各機關查詢運用採購爭議方面本會持續提供採購諮詢案情單純或有前例者會及時提供書面意見複雜案件則開會協處"},{"start":2109.278,"end":2115.922,"text":"截至今年3月底已召開136件諮詢會議其中7成3採納本會議件續辦禮約爭議方面110年至114年本會調解成立約8成為有效化"},{"start":2126.994,"end":2142.428,"text":"化解爭議並降低訴訟成本最後公共工程與民眾福祉及國家經濟發展密切相關本會將持續協助各機關排除困難確保工程順利並提升施工品質"},{"start":2143.169,"end":2159.996,"text":"促進區域均衡發展本會也會持續追蹤災後重建進度確保政策目標如期達成打造人本優質永續的生活環境為國家經濟注入持續的動能以上報告敬請主席及各位委員指教謝謝"},{"start":2168.971,"end":2187.215,"text":"好 我們謝謝工程會曾經的主委的報告接下來我們進行詢答我們先宣告以下事項第一 我們詢答的時間初席委員6加2分鐘 列席委員4加1分鐘委員發言登記請於10點30分截止"},{"start":2190.632,"end":2212.954,"text":"各委員如有臨時提案 請於10點前提出 以便議事人員會整我們暫定10點30分 休息10分鐘現在請登記第一位的委員 李昆哲委員發言謝謝召委 請一下陳經的主委請陳主委"},{"start":2219.338,"end":2244.955,"text":"委員長主委好有關於淨零碳排的議題我們屢屢在公共工程委員會的質詢上面多次的要求工程會要逐步的落實的執行那尤其是在淨零碳排的這樣一個議題早已經是世界各國的共識而且在經歷進來的這樣的一個國際局勢的動盪不安的狀況之下"},{"start":2249.619,"end":2264.715,"text":"這樣一個國家的面對這樣的一個局勢相關的碳排以及再生能源韌性的加強再生能源體系的建立更是國家未來重要的一個議題那"},{"start":2267.12,"end":2288.547,"text":"國家也定定2050年進行碳排的這樣一個重要的目標但是我們看到綠色採購有關於相關的金額歷年來都不足1%那這個相關的成效不彰早已經是社會各界議論的一個主要議題來請主委簡單說明一下為什麼效果這麼不好"},{"start":2292.708,"end":2311.878,"text":"台灣每年碳排大概兩億六千萬噸或兩億七千萬噸其中能源使用包括發電佔了大概三分之一公共工程大概佔了百分之九那麼碳排這件事情因為能源使用所以必須排那本來就是一件很難處理"},{"start":2313.379,"end":2338.924,"text":"的工作所以台灣雖然小但是重視這個在全球要減少碳排這樣的一個需求上面進行的規劃所以管理公共工程方面除了我們現在在建置的碳排係數希望在設計階段納入考量之外未來我們再加強兩個部分一個在重大的公共建設的基本設計審議階段"},{"start":2341.244,"end":2368.357,"text":"工程會會要求設計主辦機關呢將這個碳補桌那麼納入考量或者是公共工程委員會受邀協審重大公共建設在國發會的階段也會提出相同的要求換句話說我們希望重大的公共建設那麼他在設計階段就要把碳補桌減少碳排的設計納入否則的話我們不會通過我想這源頭來處理"},{"start":2371.919,"end":2389.83,"text":"針對2050年的淨營碳排 公共工程委員會也有公共工程節能減碳的計畫主要是分成三大部分來做一個實施第一個是收集公共工程各項排放係數這個部分初步已經完成"},{"start":2390.43,"end":2412.398,"text":"那第二個階段是碳排資料庫也預計要在今年底來完成那這個部分其實是分成三個部分第一個是收集各公共工程的這樣的一個排放係數那這個資料我看2024年5月之後就沒有再更新過了"},{"start":2413.098,"end":2439.679,"text":"第二個工作的重點是碳足跡的資料庫這是由環境部來主導那環境部主導之後他的資料驗證及導入再移到這個工程會就是我們的要建立試算的一個系統那這個2026年才招標系統什麼時候會建置完成什麼時候會開放使用 主委說明一下"},{"start":2441.343,"end":2460.35,"text":"我首先說明就是這個係數的統計是逐步的啦現在大概有2000多筆那麼將來系統會提供給主辦機關做設計使用那至於如何開始我想請副主委來說明我們這個排放試算系統預計要到2027年才要上線測試這個遠比荷蘭的落後10年了"},{"start":2467.649,"end":2478.978,"text":"來 副主委說明一下好 謝謝委員那剛剛委員提到那個碳排氣數的更新我想在大概一年以前我們的碳排氣數大概只有1030幾筆經過這段時間跟這樣收集各部會的資訊然後同時再去查證之後我們現在已經累積到2000多筆"},{"start":2488.906,"end":2507.319,"text":"那另外這個我們那個碳排的減碳的那個系統其實是要嫁接在我們目前的那個PCCES系統上就是價格估算系統那因為這個系統其實也有一定時間所以我們大概同步會做兩件事情一個就是把現在那個PCCES這個系統把它做一個進版升級版"},{"start":2507.959,"end":2536.658,"text":"讓他更好用讓他更準確度那同時因為這個PCCS就有相關的這些工項工項之後除了有價格之外我們就會再疊加那個我們所收集來之後驗證的這些碳排的係數那所以因此各單位到時候在起計畫的時候其實他就可以一方面算出他的那個預算的規模合理預算規模另外一個就是他可以知道說他那個碳排係數是多少那這樣來一起來控制預算相關的程序我們都清楚"},{"start":2538.059,"end":2557.417,"text":"相關的時期的建置我們也都清楚但是這樣的一個效率實在是太低了這個請陳主委必須要加緊的督促另外我們要建置這種排放的試算系統我認為就是應該要參考荷蘭的獨波克系統"},{"start":2558.427,"end":2584.765,"text":"那他們這樣的一個公共工程在荷蘭他們利用試算系統建立獎勵的制度不只是推動試算的這樣的一個計算的方式出來而且是要有獎勵的機制那荷蘭在2000年的時候開始使用這種突破課的系統2017年他們就導入線上的數位管理了"},{"start":2585.882,"end":2607.783,"text":"他們強制規定政府採購千萬歐元以上的工程都必須要採用而且試算的結果要納入投標的文件之中那工程排放來做分級的這樣的一個處理更重要他有一個虛擬折價的這樣的一個系統跟方式那"},{"start":2609.383,"end":2628.523,"text":"荷蘭他有一個部門叫基礎建設與水資源管理部他們2000年運用這個系統2017年開始導入這種排放的管理的數位管理那依照工程他們建立一至五級的這樣一個分級"},{"start":2631.101,"end":2634.967,"text":"分別可以虛擬折價1至5%就是說這種虛擬折價 假設這種工程的業者他們投標金額是1億那"},{"start":2642.984,"end":2669.858,"text":"如果該業者能夠取得虛擬折價的一級那就可以減少投標金額的1%五級就是5%那有效的讓這種要建立排放減碳的這些業者能夠取得投標的一個優勢那這樣的一個公共工程委員會對於未來資料庫跟試算系統建立之後"},{"start":2671.089,"end":2689.681,"text":"如何要進行推廣以及運用有沒有初步的規劃來請說明一下目前公共工程委員會辦理金職獎的頒獎這個金職獎在押標軍啊旅約保證等等都減少而且投標也會加分金職獎裡面有關於這個ESG的部分"},{"start":2692.583,"end":2711.041,"text":"是平分的那ESG裡面呢排碳是納入他的項目所以呢減碳這件事情如果具體做的話對他承攬相關工程是有優勢的是目前在進行的好這是一個重要的方向偵測的方向那我必須要具體的建議了我們"},{"start":2712.625,"end":2727.58,"text":"在正式公開進行測試要採取這種逐步的而且是滾動檢討的方式來做實施的一個方向核算系統是本來就有提供給機關在基本設計審查的時候去規劃他的成本預算用"},{"start":2731.604,"end":2754.221,"text":"現在是嫁接 另外就是說我們也要邀請業者來進行測試除了協助蒐集數據以及掀起輔導業者使用之外也可以同步的來蒐集業者使用的一個經驗提前來發現系統不良以及不足之處來進行相關的一個改善"},{"start":2754.761,"end":2782.259,"text":"好的 這個我們會逐年那麼陸續跟業者呢就主辦機關啦 互動然後來回饋一些意見來做修正另外最後的一些建議也就是2026年我們要進行相關的這些未來推動的規劃那包含系統的公開試用推廣與輔導到最後強制的這一種採用的期程規劃"},{"start":2785.221,"end":2811.961,"text":"強制採用的範圍對象金額規模的試行以及全面採用必須要分階段來實施那我們要逐步的來導入這種獎勵或者是剛才主委所說的金職獎或者是來研擬一下虛擬的這種折價或是其他相關的獎勵措施那而且我們要開放資料"},{"start":2813.702,"end":2839.814,"text":"讓民間參考或第三方來做一個檢視沒有問題那推動計算的方式要更新滾動的更新如果發現有什麼問題我們必須要滾動的更新那每一年我們來評選減排優秀的這些案例來進行推廣來促進業界的一個交流那請陳主委來督促好 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":2842.106,"end":2859.862,"text":"我們感謝李君哲委員我們現場有李君哲委員 洪孟楷委員請問各位委員我們對上次會議的議事錄有沒有意見謝謝 沒有意見的話讓我們議事錄確定接下來我們邀請洪孟楷委員發言"},{"start":2869.534,"end":2871.221,"text":"好主席謝謝麻煩請陳主委請工程會陳主委"},{"start":2878.573,"end":2903.05,"text":"委員長 主委好 本席要針對從年初開始全國有所謂的土方之亂要跟我們工程會來就教因為工程會日前有召集環境部、交通部、經濟部、內政部、農業部來討論就土方之亂要怎麼解決而最終把一些包括台北港、台中港、高雄港跟南興計畫的土地變成是土方的佔據區跟去化區"},{"start":2905.171,"end":2931.313,"text":"那但是在這過程裡面台北港在本期的選區可是從頭到尾巴黎的民眾以及我們地方的鄉親並沒有參與這個討論也因此現在爆發說原來台北港外他還不在台北港內在台北港外也就緊鄰我們的馬路旁邊要有一個土地來做一個土方置戰制區那地方民眾當然會群起華然跟反彈"},{"start":2933.035,"end":2954.976,"text":"為什麼突然間在這邊會有一個戰事區然後後續在這個戰事區上面還要做一個相關的處理而且所謂的戰事到底是戰事多久到目前為止各方單位沒有辦法給我們明確的答案我上一次質詢環境部 環境部部長講是說一年但一年之後會不會可以順利的退場這一點主委你怎麼看"},{"start":2956.076,"end":2976.63,"text":"包委員土方的業務是歸內政部主管那跟土方的產出源包括公共工程其實民間的建築是大宗那公共工程委員會當然希望包括公共工程的土方出處能夠有一個合理的"},{"start":2977.731,"end":2988.739,"text":"便利的去處不會影響公共工程的進度但整個土方的處理是由內政部呢協調交通部去台北港並非公共工程委員會的不是公共工程委員會的業務國土署也算您督導嗎"},{"start":2992.717,"end":3009.478,"text":"那是政務委員的部分是 政務委員的部分嘛 沒錯啊但現在我們看到是說在這一次的土方之亂連前工程會主委吳哲成啊他也直接就點名是說看不下去認為這一次土方之亂問題在於末端土方出處沒有準備好就開始執行流量管制啊"},{"start":3010.824,"end":3038.453,"text":"土方業務報告委開宗明義講說你說國家共大公共工程我們要支持沒有問題啊但重點在於是說突然間沒有準備好然後就頒布一個政策所以說造成土方之亂土方之亂之後馬上急救張再去做去化所以到時候選擇到地方要有戰事場那這不很草率嗎土方管理30年了在這個過程裡面有沒有跟地方溝通過土方管理超過30年了並不是今天才亂"},{"start":3040.054,"end":3062.089,"text":"歷任就是今年最亂歷任的主委歷任的主管他們都有進行那今年只是增加了這個GPS的裝置跟流向管制所以這就變成是配套的措施有沒有做好而造不然主委你也不需要開始召集環境部交通部等相關單位來共同討論吧"},{"start":3063.732,"end":3089.329,"text":"不是嗎那另外再來喔前環保署副署長律師詹順貴也稱土方之亂是行政院某政務委員惡搞那位政務委員是誰這個我不了解他講的是誰啦不過我對這位前政務官也知之甚明啦我們彼此了解就好彼此了解就好是什麼意思我了解他的說法至於他講誰你要問他"},{"start":3090.109,"end":3109.037,"text":"喔 我要問他 因為你也不清楚是誰因為不是我講的 所以你要問他你也不清楚是誰那你要問他不是 這不是我要問他 你現在不用反質詢我現在在問的是說 某政務官員在惡搞嘛那也因此是說 兩位民進黨前朝官員都暗指在這次的土方之亂 事出必有因啊"},{"start":3110.302,"end":3129.605,"text":"必有妖啊你說30年過去那過去30年就沒有造成今年那麼的餘波蕩漾啊那還有過去如果說30年要處理的話那沒有在巴黎地區找一個土地來做戰志場那為什麼突然間今年這樣子那我只想問就是說巴黎地區的民眾他也給本席陳情"},{"start":3130.586,"end":3157.974,"text":"他也問我們之前在地方說明會也召集相關單位來之後發覺是完全沒有後續的配套到底你暫置要暫置多久是不是一年哪一個單位可以保證主委你是身為公共工程的主管我建議委員到內政委員會去執行內政部這不是你建議我而是現在本席就在問的是說既然這已經是跨部會的溝通而有政務委員出來做跨部會的協調的時候"},{"start":3159.514,"end":3176.111,"text":"我們想問說到底這個決策的過程地方政府配合然後結果全部中央下來然後地方政府跟我們民間到最後來承受這樣的壓力誰來看看理解或是了解我們的居民的壓力主委 有沒有開過會"},{"start":3181.041,"end":3206.633,"text":"我是基於這位委員召集相關法律的事情是嘛所以那一天的主席是誰什麼 開過很多次會那一天主席是誰哪一天找相關本席剛剛講的來決定開了多次會議開了多次會議我的主委本席現在要的是哪一次會議做了什麼決定我想問你說你現在把整個這個土方的主委本席現在要的是說要看到地方民眾的需求"},{"start":3207.153,"end":3227.796,"text":"而不是說我們開完會之後後續就變成沒有事所以本席這個陳情書能不能也給我們公共工程委員會一份讓我們公共工程委員會來去了解能夠做的部分請你再以政務委員的立場再召集相關部會甚至地方政府大家共同來討論怎麼樣降低地方的衝擊這樣做得到嗎"},{"start":3228.777,"end":3242.964,"text":"我基於尊重委員的這個要求啦那因為我身兼政務委員我是可以接受但是請不要把土方之亂灌在我陳金德身上我先 從頭到尾沒有你要早去找那個詹順貴"},{"start":3244.545,"end":3267.171,"text":"那但是本席現在要問的是民進黨政府從上到下到底要解決問題要有配套要有措施要有辦法而不是丟出來之後後續讓地方來去吸收我覺得這樣子大家沒有辦法接受所以主委這個陳情書這個我基於尊重委員的職權樂意接受好 謝謝主委等一下我就給我們相關單位來再來"},{"start":3269.432,"end":3296.973,"text":"也請主委真的要重視我們中央跟地方溝通的一個部分即便你開會你沒有直接來跟地方溝通你也要要求相關部會應該要跟地方合理說明否則的話這樣子推動真的是讓大家地方滑爛再來另外一個部分公共工程委員會現在要做政府採購法的一個修法嘛那都還在這個公告以及相關的一個部分但是其中雖然刪除三家投標的一個限制引發爭議"},{"start":3298.322,"end":3314.327,"text":"那暫緩有現在是講說暫緩修法不知道什麼時候我們會再審到但另外一個部分草案新增國家安全跟機密採購有可能直接採取限制機招標或是選擇性招標那外界也會有聯想說這又會不會是開大開方便之門"},{"start":3315.348,"end":3329.763,"text":"謝謝文子教所以我們現在重新在整個在接受各界的寶貴意見會重新彙整在必要的時候再重新預告所以什麼時候會預告還沒有我們就是彙整之後再重新預告本已經預告過了是"},{"start":3331.164,"end":3350.861,"text":"預告過啦就是外界划然以及外界疑慮很多啊包括說因為本席還是開宗明義談調外界贊成的也很多外界支持的也很多主委如果說外界支持的話你就不會再拿回去重新再修正了啦講大白話如果說你覺得外界支持很多那就硬推嘛"},{"start":3351.522,"end":3379.253,"text":"那就送進來嘛但沒有啊你公告完畢之後你現在你剛剛自己就講是說你又再回去又再修正又再討論代表確實有反彈聲音但是本席現在想強調的是本席現在想強調的是如果說能夠讓一般基層公務同仁能夠更便捷節省他的行政流程讓他增加效率本席不反對這是一般的基層公務同仁但是請聽清楚如果說"},{"start":3380.906,"end":3403.804,"text":"動不動就拿什麼國安機密機密採購然後扣帽子然後直接就講是說這個東西就直接要進入選擇性招標然後完全沒有外界沒有辦法評估沒有辦法了解然後你就是指定招標的話本期沒有辦法接受為什麼因為過去我們就看到很多機密招標或是很多相關國安的部分什麼軍方買水120塊一罐5萬塊的會議椅"},{"start":3407.421,"end":3422.937,"text":"那這個部分我真的很擔心說以後如果說你這樣變你的修法通過之後軍方五萬塊會議以算不算是國安機密他認定了之後他就變成是選擇性招標那到最後變成是刷碼國安機密 駭碼國安機密"},{"start":3425.267,"end":3445.584,"text":"我覺得這個是一般民眾都沒有辦法接受的剛才我跟你講這個個案是確定有這個個案嗎買水用限責性招標嗎不是啊本席就講是說過去到現在有多少這一些都已經這個就是被我們立法院挑出來所以買水到7-11買就可以了啊主委買水到7-11買就可以了對"},{"start":3447.165,"end":3462.311,"text":"主委所以說你自己也覺得很荒謬嘛你覺得這個標案也很荒謬嘛這個標案就是之前在外交國防委員會外交部報出來的預算被我們外交國防的委員挑出來到最後顧立雄自己說回去的標案啊"},{"start":3463.624,"end":3485.588,"text":"所以本席現在講的是說什麼本席現在講的是說我們還是要有一個持平性不要什麼事情都打著國安機密的大旗來去做掩護的事實所以本席先提出當然你現在已經講了就是說你還會再做修正之後再做公告嘛對不對預計什麼時候再公告"},{"start":3485.908,"end":3513.88,"text":"我們會中整各界一經再來辦理所以目前沒有時間表還沒有好本席還是一樣的態度跟一樣的原則預算當用則用 花在刀口上但是當審則審公共工程委員會是我們國家的主管採購相關標案的機關更應該以身作則以上 謝謝好 謝謝好 謝謝侯孟侃委員發言完畢現在請林俊憲召委發言"},{"start":3520.941,"end":3525.984,"text":"好 謝謝主席 本席要請我們工程會陳金德主委請陳金德主委主委好 主委我今天要跟你探討 第一個我們六都唯一沒有捷運的就是台南那台南目前捷運的進度最快的"},{"start":3545.106,"end":3566.724,"text":"甚至渴望希望能夠在今年來完成發包正式動工的就是藍線藍線在去年是要核定它的綜合規劃我在這邊要感謝我們工程會的同仁在去年一路以來給台南市"},{"start":3567.685,"end":3576.25,"text":"捷運南線這個綜合規劃的核定給我們很多專業的協助但現在要進入最後一個最重要的就是經費的審議要審定這個經費全部經費總共327億"},{"start":3587.042,"end":3611.473,"text":"那麼這條線 這條藍線是台南市的進度最快 也渴望是第一條動工的捷運線它一對永康到東區 到這麼遠的仁德這三區都是人口稠密的行政區這三區差不多五十萬人 五十萬個人口數它向北邊 大概從永康"},{"start":3612.293,"end":3623.856,"text":"大橋就是我們說的永康齊美醫院對南來到台南市東區的平石營區然後它有一個向東到臨北的中山樓那邊有設一個基站那麼總長大概8.5公里那麼這條路"},{"start":3632.079,"end":3653.117,"text":"也很特殊 因為他是在賴清德做市長的任內開始進行可行性研究賴清德做行政院長的時候 何定這樣的路線他現在做總統 任內也渴望即將動工所以這是階段性持續推動 你看這已經經過十幾年的時間了"},{"start":3656.504,"end":3668.592,"text":"明天4月14日工程會就要到台南現場去勘查捷運作為接下來經費審定的最後一關"},{"start":3674.724,"end":3692.411,"text":"那麼這個部分 是不是請我們工程會能夠再像過去一樣 盡速的來協助我們處理經費一核定 接下來就可以進行工程的發包希望能夠在今年如期的動工我們要請教工程會的陳主委"},{"start":3692.831,"end":3715.661,"text":"先以為的確是台南是最後一個要建制捷運的六都的一個城市那這個基本設計審查初步工程會有經過一些初審那明天上午會到縣地呢會邀集相關的委員到縣地去看然後現勘之後也在台南立即召開最後一次的審查會議"},{"start":3717.122,"end":3741.954,"text":"所以明天審查會如果委員大家都同意或有一些小修正那本案就算最後就核定了那核定之後那台灣市政府當然就可以依據這個核定的基本設計跟經費進行相關發包作業那現在才四月嘛所以他應該可以盡速來辦理發包的這個工作好 感謝主委啦那明天是誰帶隊"},{"start":3743.24,"end":3754.667,"text":"我跟李副主委還有相關的主管都會下去好 非常感謝希望能夠儘速地做經費審議的核定因為這條線 藍線是第一條它接下來當然還有藍沿線因為這條做好了之後 它就往藍"},{"start":3760.911,"end":3787.005,"text":"延伸到高鐵 把它割掉現在台南稻棧的高鐵一年人次超過一千萬現在這麼多人出來都沒有大宗運輸就沒有捷運了但是只有剩下那種轉運的巴士而已希望能夠再增加捷運來讓旅客進出台南高鐵站能夠更方便這條要先做這條大在市區的心臟地帶"},{"start":3789.867,"end":3807.671,"text":"所以我們寄予厚望 那也請工程會 謝謝工程會來繼續給我們協助啦那另外要注意探討一件事 是關於我們法規的一項前幾天 台南市的棒球場 亞太棒球場周邊的攤商 招標 引起很大的討論"},{"start":3813.291,"end":3836.187,"text":"我們現在討論的不是台南市這個亞太棒球場外這種攤商招標的個案我要講的是這個個案所引發的通案你這個個案是怎麼應給大家討論的因為亞太棒球場外面的攤商一公告是4月4日4月4日就結標了那你4月2日一公告"},{"start":3837.52,"end":3858.933,"text":"那第二天就開始休假4月3號4號5號6號連續休4天的清明連假然後連假結束4月7號就結標就停止收標了4月8號開標我算一下他的天數啦是合法啦 合規啦"},{"start":3860.137,"end":3884.303,"text":"但是我認為啊 有改善的空間啦因為這可能會形成公平性的問題啦你想說你四月四日開錶 回來那四天廉價料你就要截止啦所以想要參與的投標廠商啊他幾乎沒有什麼可以準備的時間啦除非你事先知道有這個標案"},{"start":3886.351,"end":3892.28,"text":"你就可能形成會有不公平的質疑以這樣的時間點當然我是最優先我事先已經知道有這個標案"},{"start":3900.137,"end":3920.55,"text":"否則的話一般的廠商大家都會被這樣的一個公告時間給壓縮到其實工程會也知道這種事情這種狀況所以工程會在今年春節期間我們工程會就有特別發文請各機關你那個等標期就是你開標到結標中間的這個期限你如果賭的廉價應該要延長"},{"start":3925.729,"end":3951.019,"text":"因為那時候春節今年好像休了9天10天所以工程會特別發這個文原因就是說希望能夠跳過這個廉價但是啦很多單位接下來他就是以只要合屋規定因為你只要低於公告金額的就是差不多150萬以內你只要5天嘛 電子零不要5天嘛"},{"start":3951.874,"end":3973.553,"text":"所以他就不會去考量你這中間有沒有廉價的問題所以我們工廠會是不是就這一點啊能夠做進一步的的一個改善如果以後遇到有廉價的狀況那麼是不是應該啊要來跳過去我請副主委好來請副主委"},{"start":3975.074,"end":3999.349,"text":"委員好謝謝委員這個問題那因為上禮拜大概有接到這樣的一個個案那我就有特別去了解一下目前等標期的設計確實誠如委員所講的那原則上我們是訂一個最低的這個等標期的期間但當然他必須符合這個所謂的合理性嘛"},{"start":4000.43,"end":4025.523,"text":"但是問題是這個就過於的這個有點蓋鍋啦每個機關的理解不太一樣所以目前那麼我在內部的研究上面原理的方向可能會是朝理論上應該是他實際上有在工作的時間來定這個等標題比較合理啦所以目前的檢討方向會是往這個方向來檢討"},{"start":4027.594,"end":4045.809,"text":"因為目前的規定我們這個招票期限標準第十一條有下到他這是大概考量到禮拜五我們目前只規定到禮拜五如果是禮拜五公告對不對期算是你從禮拜一開始算你要跳過禮拜六禮拜天你是考量到這一點"},{"start":4046.71,"end":4067.636,"text":"可是那個廉價有時候更可怕台灣的廉價他們價值非常多尤其盡量調的讓它連在一起我來看一下你今年清明節我想說為什麼會不會是個案你看有這麼多機關包括國防部軍醫局經濟部產業管理局台北分局高雄農總"},{"start":4069.745,"end":4074.933,"text":"他們同樣都是4月2號公告結票日都是4月7號中間都卡到4月3、4、5、6這四天連假都卡在這個這個等標期間這個會造成"},{"start":4084.197,"end":4108.995,"text":"這個很多人的來不及備標或者是我會質疑除非你有內定廠商你已經首先有人在準備了不然你怎麼會有讓投標廠商來備標呢我希望這一點工程會在未來應該把它納入考量你這考量到禮拜五跳過禮拜六日從禮拜一開始算但這個廉價更嚴重啦好不好好 我們謝謝工程會的陳主委謝謝副主委"},{"start":4119.312,"end":4122.836,"text":"好 接下來我們邀請陳素月委員發言謝謝主席 請主席邀請工程會陳主委請陳主委"},{"start":4144.783,"end":4159.244,"text":"主委早安我想這個工程的這個安全施工安全非常的重要那我們看到在三個月底就是3月31號在新北市新莊的這個衛福部台北醫院"},{"start":4160.345,"end":4189.217,"text":"集中正大樓的新建工程五樓發生了一件這個墜落的工人失主墜落的一個意外那很不幸的也因為傷重不治所以這樣子的一個事件一再的發生讓我們覺得非常的遺憾所以對於如何落實公安的一個防護避免這樣子的意外一再的發生非常的一個重要那我們也看到工程會在今天的這個業務報告裡面也有針對就是說如何落實職安"},{"start":4189.83,"end":4205.127,"text":"又提出了四個面向就是聘任具職安專長的委員然後第二個是要求確實編制職安圖說集量化費用那第三就是與勞動部合作提升公共工程職安"},{"start":4205.748,"end":4222.515,"text":"以及第四個職業安全項目納入金職獎的規定那我想先請教主委就是說這樣子的四個面向就是說在你就任之後有比較創新的地方嗎還是說都是沿用過去的一些作為"},{"start":4226.939,"end":4240.053,"text":"關於職安的問題是跟勞動部都是相關主管機關那因為工程會是公共工程的職業安全也可以去集合那目前我們"},{"start":4241.991,"end":4255.722,"text":"工程會的金職獎部分有很嚴格的要求對職安的部分那麼會這個扣分甚至有重大職安事件那這個就金職獎還會追回那這個金職獎是牽涉到這個"},{"start":4260.786,"end":4288.249,"text":"這個這些廠商他承攬下一階段公共工程能不能加分能不能夠旅業保證減半等等所以我們是相當重視職安這件事情所以把金子獎的評分把職安納入重要考量那這一次呢我想這個徵聘具有職安專長的委員來做實地集合或者是做查核呢應該是我們是"},{"start":4289.774,"end":4317.049,"text":"過去有這樣做嗎謝委員跟委員報告我們今年除了原聘一般都是兩位外聘的委員那如果這兩位委員就相關的類別如果沒有子安專長我們都增加一位那另外跟委員報告因為實際上我想相關規定都有但是工程會這邊就藉由如果你原來有不良履歷的廠商或是我這一次查核是高風險的工程我們就加重查核"},{"start":4317.449,"end":4335.508,"text":"那對職安事件也加重扣點那另外就是有關危險場所我們去的時候都會看廠商就是你有沒有在請前確實告知所以我想規定都有就是落實的問題那工程會這邊會會同勞眾部加重就是有關查核的部分謝謝委員"},{"start":4336.178,"end":4339.641,"text":"跟委員報告我們在工程查的時候增加那個職安專長委員就是新創的這是今年才開始推動的"},{"start":4355.052,"end":4371.296,"text":"今年年初的時候年初就開始了今年是1月份才開始那委員檢報第4點那個職安的項目納入金職獎規定那是去年我們7月政治在金職獎的辦法裡面去做修正的那就是一個就是派專家去協助職安專家去協助"},{"start":4373.337,"end":4396.852,"text":"其實我們還是比較用積極性的態度去來去教這些工地的這些廠商那子彈項目這個其實也是算是一種肯定讓他如果他能夠做好那他會有一些加分但是如果他有一些過去的一些重大子彈他也會被予以扣分就讓他量化比較客觀化去處理我們當然希望工程會有更積極的一個作為然後確實來落實我跟委員報告"},{"start":4398.173,"end":4413.387,"text":"整個工作環境是否容易造成這個一些意外當然要投入成本他的相關的保護措施這些都需要成本所以工程會將來呢在比較重大的這些公共建設的"},{"start":4414.828,"end":4431.725,"text":"審查過程會建立主辦機關就這個職安環境所必須的費用來調高納入預算讓業者承攬這個工程之後他才有這個預算可以把整個工作環境職業安全的防護做得比較好"},{"start":4432.586,"end":4453.122,"text":"那這個環境呢跟會直接影響職安是不是會發生的比例啊所以我們願意將來會要求這個機關在做預算的準備的時候這部分要納入要納入考量是好那當然在這方面如果我們的目標就是希望讓這個意外能夠降低甚至超"},{"start":4454.002,"end":4480.618,"text":"這個零意外的一個目標所以對於任何積極性的做法我們都是給予肯定的那我們也來看一個統計表就是在去年度跟前年度的這個重大職災的死亡人數在去年度是有稍微降低了一些那當然我們就剛如同我剛所說的我們希望盡量朝向零意外的一個目標因為畢竟每一個"},{"start":4481.238,"end":4499.078,"text":"每一條人命都是非常的珍貴我們也不希望這樣的意外發生所以除了剛剛這些就是我們剛剛說的這四個面向之外就主委您的就是想法裡面還有沒有更好的做法或更積極的作為"},{"start":4500.447,"end":4529.566,"text":"這個我們工程會陸續都派我們的這個相關人員到比較關於這個工作環境比較完善的國家比方說歐洲、德國跟日本都陸續派員出去參考他們的制度跟方法那這些我們會逐步的納入相關的我們的這些工作指引包括我剛才所提的預算希望機關來寬列這部分那才能夠有效降低這個職安發生的比例啦"},{"start":4530.146,"end":4538.597,"text":"完全是一個工作的環境還有一些平常廠商是否具備這方面的重視這個都要逐步的來推動"},{"start":4539.662,"end":4566.492,"text":"是 那就你們今天的這個郵報告的這個書面資料裡面本席有看到你有提到就是說要擴大履歷制度納入工程參與人員就是為了提升施工品質與安全要進一步建立公共工程參與人員的履歷我想請教一下就是說你要如何去落實這個把這個履歷制度延伸到工程人員層面"},{"start":4571.177,"end":4597.209,"text":"這個會不會有點實際跟我們現在有兩個履歷系統一個是施工廠商我們已經建置一個就是廠商的履歷計分制度一個履歷系統第二個是針對你參與相關公共工程的人員包括建築師那專業工程的品管工程師或是相關的工地主任我們目前也建置了這個相關人員的一個履歷支應系統以上報告"},{"start":4597.645,"end":4616.853,"text":"是 可是這樣子一個系統的一個建制就是說對於工程人員的一個履歷的建制如果說他們有相關的比如說職災或者是懲戒紀錄那我們要怎樣去限制他參與未來工程的這個就是競標之類 有可能嗎"},{"start":4620.775,"end":4641.215,"text":"這個主要是公司啦 履歷這個公司 那麼廠商呢 他在選商的時候機關在選商的時候 比方說評選那評選他可以根據這個履歷來打分數嘛那至於個人 個人他如果在有這些職案的事故他是否違反相關祭司法 那是可以懲處的"},{"start":4643.735,"end":4667.488,"text":"那當然就是說我們對於職安的安全我們就是希望能夠盡量朝向這個零意外的一個方向那也希望就是說在任何可以達到目標的一個政策我們都予以肯定那當然也要去考慮到就是實務跟我們的政策的理想性是不是可以就是符合的一個地方這樣子好謝謝"},{"start":4674.704,"end":4680.565,"text":"好 我們感謝陳樹業委員好 接下來我們邀請魯明哲委員發言好 謝謝主席有請我們工程會陳主委請陳主委陳主委您好"},{"start":4702.673,"end":4729.235,"text":"這個請教一下因為最近有看到你們這個說明發新聞稿但我想到在今年年初的時候特別在交通委員會針對你修法的一個內容曾經排過一個專案報告那我那時候也跟你討論這個我想說的委員針對說修法內容尤其是這個刪除三家這個第一次招標三家這樣的一個限制"},{"start":4730.035,"end":4750.739,"text":"我還記得你那時候是蠻多想法的也頗為堅持那當然因為我知道那不光是你啦在任何修法的過程中任何機關它都有很多醞釀的過程很多收集訊息的過程很多跟產業界溝通的過程但我覺得從今天我們1月5號到4月10號將近四個月的時間"},{"start":4755.655,"end":4778.384,"text":"聽到答案啦 答案就是 喔 這個先不做了那我也覺得很奇怪啊 因為你當時講的說包括美國 歐盟啊 都沒這樣的一個標準包括很多很多的那個理由啊 是不是不見了那我也看到你的報告特別想啊 特別說這一陣子啊 當然預告期嘛 聽聽大家意見 是第二階段聽嘛"},{"start":4779.324,"end":4799.988,"text":"那各界建設性的觀點我的天啊以前我們覺得你覺得那個建設性觀點形成了這個的改變它最主要你在業界凝聚了哪幾個建設性的觀點把你1月5號曾經得諸位說的一些論點把它改變了麻煩你簡要說明一下"},{"start":4802.699,"end":4830.035,"text":"其實我們採購法的修正過程醞釀很久了那也都含詢各機關就是辦採購的機關大致上都沒有什麼反對意見那麼也去拜訪跟這個相關的工協會這個相關工會大概除了少部分一些修正之外沒有什麼特別的意見所以我們嘗試去做預告"},{"start":4831.176,"end":4855.758,"text":"預告的部分回來也是贊成則居多啦但是後來沒想到這個被聚焦在三家改為一家認為這個是要圖利廠商甚至認為工程會這個叫放水那這個指責就太大了這個指責太大那我們認為與其這樣子的"},{"start":4858.28,"end":4880.529,"text":"跟部分人士的意見相左應推啊那不如我們這個在在更凝聚各界贊成的意見因為贊成的意見呢比聲音比較小這機關啊我們這個工程會修法的內容所以那另外呢我們的確很認真的在想是不是三家改為一家的確會造成某些這個缺口"},{"start":4881.129,"end":4909.212,"text":"或是某些執行上機關如果有些不效的機關辦理採購人員造成他的方便所以我們也虛心的認為我們必須來認真思考陳主委其實這個各界的意見當天大概我聽到非常非常多的委員大概已經幫你蒐集了相關的意見我記得我那天特別說了三家如果變成一家第一次就可以招標"},{"start":4910.734,"end":4925.462,"text":"在效率上我覺得有兩種人非常開心第一個是優質廠商他不要被卡這麼久我就只有幾家可以做這樣的大的工程被卡到那個預算都要調幾倍那第二個開心的就是劣質廠商哇"},{"start":4926.042,"end":4940.091,"text":"以前要喬辦天華這一支一支搞定所以確實有困難是可以理解的但我想請問一下我看到你們4月10號你們的一個新聞稿回覆特別講了第二段最後幾個字"},{"start":4941.744,"end":4963.847,"text":"你會持續整合意見就整體影響進行長期的配套評估充分凝聚共識在這個推行修法的一個程序因為坦白講因為過去看到有任何單位新聞稿這個部分就是不是進入修法期就法律進入休眠期休眠期"},{"start":4965.249,"end":4981.223,"text":"你現在是包括其他的部分 你現在就要長期評估你現在大概什麼時候會提出方案你們要先送行政院 你有沒有什麼樣一個三家這個部分排除掉這樣的一個情況之下有沒有一個時間表還是真的進入休眠期"},{"start":4981.843,"end":5010.87,"text":"因為這次修法條文非常多啦那有些要修法的內容也是來自於大院的建議啦在本委員會的這個建議那被聚焦在三家改為一家這個是相當可惜啦所以我們寧可把這個各界的意見凝聚好了之後再來辦理我們預計希望能夠在今年年底之前把這些工作做好之後那麼會重新預告啦"},{"start":5011.758,"end":5033.003,"text":"好這個主委其實剛剛我們平常一般人的擔心確實三家變一家因為現在你就覺得我們有很多的防弊機制有時候那個標案我們說真的我講真的大家全民都看不下去你看看這個3月26號27號一下出來兩個新聞我都覺得很離譜當然這中間到底有什麼採購法或者相關的一個採購制度法規面"},{"start":5040.965,"end":5069.359,"text":"是不是有缺漏第二個是到底人發生問題再來第四個是流程 檢核 集合 驗收到底是發生什麼問題警用房貸背心是拼裝貨我覺得這很離譜這不是個案它從2019年弄到2022年才發生這個事情當然講說這是業管單位的事情 驗中單位的事情可是你知道嗎"},{"start":5070.299,"end":5084.958,"text":"警政署 移民署 校政署 台灣銀行 防彈備心全部跨單位 跨機構我坦白講工程會如果你沒有跨單位去用心的話你真的今天感覺說防彈備心"},{"start":5087.02,"end":5104.671,"text":"各位 這個 主委我們所有的員警同仁穿上了防彈背心他覺得很安心他這份信任不是來自於這個廠商他是信任這個國家的制度信任工程會採購法一定可以給我們"},{"start":5105.692,"end":5123.501,"text":"非常有Quality對不對Qualify很棒的能夠保護我們生命的結果你到最後答案一撥出來像現在有些案子正在準備起訴我說真的啊你還沒判決保固期已經過了準備換下一件了像這樣的真的很離譜耶可以"},{"start":5124.221,"end":5153.381,"text":"改製造日期可以沒有防水的功能可以提供假的檢測報告然後非原廠的一個證明書然後可以七稿八稿弄完這個我是覺得這個請問一下是哪一個處還是哪個單位我先問一下這個2019年他上網招標嘛那剛開始標了大家也穿了不知道發生什麼事了我請問一下2020年2021年沒有東昌事發之前這個廠商的履歷"},{"start":5154.502,"end":5163.62,"text":"好不好啊在你們的1.3萬家這兩家廠商的履歷是不是優良廠商啊你們要注意這件事啊"},{"start":5164.69,"end":5186.379,"text":"我跟你講你們累積了10年1.3萬目前你們的資料庫有兩廠商像這個廠商你們回去查啦我回去自己查如果你這樣子搞一個大烏龍大笑話你說那個是廠結果後面的人看到2020年 2021年又要找這輛防彈背心終於找到我們工程會認定的"},{"start":5188.4,"end":5214.06,"text":"優良廠商 履歷很棒的我覺得這個你們要特別注意那下面像陸軍這個26套反制系統因為我都不知道為什麼這麼多渣男廠商他跟這些這麼厲害這麼厲害我跟你講很多真的技術到位的一個廠商他也說根本不敢去標你知道嗎他覺得很深啊這個要去招標到驗收到領到錢這真不容易啊"},{"start":5214.66,"end":5216.142,"text":"所以我們本來政府採購法修正裡面要擴大停權範圍就是要解決這些渣男廠商的問題"},{"start":5233.191,"end":5251.848,"text":"我們其中有一個修法是要針對比方說你去公司更名或者是同一個治安人他登記了很多家公司過去是沒有管制的我們再透過修法來擴大停權範圍就是要解決碰到這種渣男廠商的問題而且這個問題也是大院一再要求的"},{"start":5252.328,"end":5276.055,"text":"其實這個我想這真的非常嚴重因為你一件事情起頭根本沒有做好後面所謂的審計監察司法調查我覺得都是後面在補強重點是穿著這樣的完全不合格過期的這些遠景同仁你知道他們現在身上我想我們朝偉在這邊他們身上超多自己買的東西你知道嗎"},{"start":5277.535,"end":5282.488,"text":"我說奇怪我就問了警政署就有相關的配備你幹嘛要買這個買那個你知道嗎"},{"start":5284.946,"end":5310.276,"text":"唯一的特色 奇怪我們招標的都特別貴但是品質沒有特別好那我結論就這樣子政府採購法我覺得很多問題但是三大問題現在看到這麼多的一個情況你的檢核驗收的制度失靈這些假的證明假的原廠證明到最後有沒有一個回溯追蹤的制度我拿那個證明對不對我不要等到"},{"start":5311.076,"end":5327.523,"text":"司法調查才發現嘛這證明是不是說好 OK我怎麼看得懂他造假的他回溯到原廠寄給原廠或者我不太清楚現在在各個機關有沒有這種double check的一個制度也不能讓你行政院公共工程委員會說幫我判讀嘛"},{"start":5329.364,"end":5358.086,"text":"我倒是覺得已經招標完成了好一切照制度走但是有些相關重要的發生這麼多次對不對包括檢驗包括相關你覺得我覺得要一個回溯去跟原單位去追蹤的一個機制那包括你黑名單派出機制這個我已經說了很多次還有現在的罰則旅遊管理我看到你修法很多啦我們是希望你最後做個結論啦好不好修法之後你希望預期怎麼樣"},{"start":5359.963,"end":5385.758,"text":"我們把過去這些讓這些不好的廠商有機會一再的投機得標這些路啊都要把他把他這個擋起來啦那相關的問題我們希望有機會在政府採購法裡面做修正而且獲得這個大院的支持好謝謝主席好好我們感謝魯明哲委員"},{"start":5387.591,"end":5404.47,"text":"接下來我們邀請徐富奎委員發言謝謝主席 邀請我們陳金德主委好 請陳主委"},{"start":5410.413,"end":5424.214,"text":"委員長主委我想這幾天新聞媒體的一個很重要的新聞就是我們國民黨的鄭麗文主席跟中共的國家主席習近平會面"},{"start":5425.996,"end":5447.095,"text":"那會面完之後大陸這邊馬上釋出善意說要給臺灣十項禮物包含推動福岸沿海地區金門馬祖通水通電通氣通橋增進金馬地區的社會福利還有相關的一些建設福利的福祉主委知道這個新聞嗎"},{"start":5448.483,"end":5477.348,"text":"我大概有稍微看一下好那主委那有一個很重要的議題就是金下大橋這個是中國大陸一直在倡議的一個建設那尤其廈門這一頭已經在2023年在中國已經片面的一個動工那這一次這個政協會又被拿出來炒作我想這個工程會是我們主管國家重要建設的一個重要的一個單位主委認為這個金下大橋可行性"},{"start":5478.268,"end":5490.145,"text":"是不是會造成國家安全的一個危害請主委說明報告委員那這個是一個高度政治性的議題那當然鋪橋造路"},{"start":5495.001,"end":5520.223,"text":"也是好事但是前提是要一個兩邊都是一個友善平等的互信互惠的國家跟國家之間的關係那如果對岸他是基於民眾的福祉那麼也確保這個兩岸這個對等主權的這樣的態度之下來做這件事情那當然是好事如果變成一個提供這個"},{"start":5522.125,"end":5551.54,"text":"目前這個軍機圍繞啦什麼這個武統這些都政策跟實際作為都還沒有改變的狀況之下那我想這個對國家安全必須慎重考量好因為我想除了這個之外啦他們也針對農業漁業開放我想也釋出了他們的認為的善意但是我昨天在跑行程的時候我們很多的農民朋友跟市民朋友也跟我講說那些都騙人的啦"},{"start":5552.02,"end":5575.618,"text":"因為過去也有曾經開放過這樣的一個例子結果到最後空頭支票一張 八拉票一頂所以我覺得我們應該要審慎評估這樣的一個方案那誠如剛剛主委講的 這個是一個高度政治的一個風險的一個工程那未來可不可行 我想工程會是不是有能夠做這樣一個專業的一個建議 有沒有這個思考"},{"start":5577.196,"end":5603.333,"text":"工程會是主管我們國內的公共工程這個外國的公共工程大概管不到管不到啦主委管不到但是你認為這個不過我可以舉一個例子啦就是金門的水它也是在福建、廈門那邊也不能來但我實際去看了之後那個水還是原水啦就是還沒有經過處理"},{"start":5605.234,"end":5627.815,"text":"所以金門的水基本上還是透過海水淡化或者是相關的這個水利設施那麼比較大部分啦那尤其是中國目前的政府制度之下呢那一切都是為政治啦不管是農業啦不管交流都一切都是以政治為目的嘛"},{"start":5628.716,"end":5654.871,"text":"主委比較客氣啦 我認為是統政為目的啦 這個不一樣好 主委 那撇開這個問題啦我想還是要麻煩主委來關心一下屏東的重大建設主委 我想我們的高屏二塊跟高鐵南沿這兩個案子也感謝主委的大力幫忙那過去 包含從交通部也好 國安會也好我想主委也都用這樣子的一個協調的一個角色能夠加快時程 主委"},{"start":5655.151,"end":5673.263,"text":"那高屏二塊目前原本預計今年要動工那因為卡在總預算的關係那目前工程會有沒有安排要擇期現勘審查或者有沒有相關的一個進度請主委說明一下那個他其中有一個優先要做的路段西萬彪是不是"},{"start":5673.903,"end":5682.305,"text":"有一個是最近才把基本設計送到工程會我們會先建立審查委員還有做初審我們會儘速而且優先的來完成基本設計的審查"},{"start":5694.506,"end":5712.838,"text":"主委這個我還是要再提醒你一件事情因為我記得我們行政院主委院長有到屏東來視察這個工程的時候原本是預定今年的6月就要動工了那後來因為相關的一個審查的一個機制所以延到9月這個目標有沒有改變時間會不會影響"},{"start":5714.98,"end":5736.169,"text":"我們儘速來審查啦因為才剛送來而已那我們審查之後希望能夠讓這個施工能夠今年能是不是能能夠上我能夠進行招標作業啦注意這些拜託你啦我們加快其成好那另外針對高鐵的部分南沿屏東部分主委有沒有最新的一個進度"},{"start":5738.745,"end":5759.042,"text":"目前高鐵延伸屏東的部分在進行環評當中那這個環評的這個報告持續都會在追蹤那麼也會召會來了解我們希望能夠整個競速來推動高鐵延伸屏東的這件事情"},{"start":5760.129,"end":5774.936,"text":"我想這個也是我們過去一直以來我們大家一起來努力的一個目標那尤其謝謝諸位運營專業來協調扮演這個協調的一個角色所以這高鐵南沿宜蘭跟屏東一樣重要一起來推動"},{"start":5777.263,"end":5795.797,"text":"那另外我想針對一個這個目前我們這個公共工程還有我們工程專業人力缺工的問題我想這也是主委很在意的一個事情那我有最近有看到主委到花東地區為了這個土木工程學分班來揭牌那這也是工程會第一個辦的一個學分班"},{"start":5796.577,"end":5813.927,"text":"每個學分一千塊這個是市價的四分之一那取得學分之後並符合國考資格會再退一半的費用我想諸位的用心就是要解決我們目前土木專業人力的一個缺口那其實尤其我知道像我們現在很多高普考考試"},{"start":5815.608,"end":5841.557,"text":"這個開放名額之後就有報導報導率很低啊尤其有的年輕人像我們怡德這個副主委一樣我們以前在縣政府的時候不得不三個月就有民間後遺了因為公務部門的工作繁重民意代表壓力很大到民間薪水比較高壓力沒那麼大主委那有沒有可能在我們南部高屏地區也來開這樣的一個分班解決我們人的缺口因為土木"},{"start":5842.597,"end":5857.424,"text":"工程院很缺乏啦 而且高考 國考報到率很低那尤其是東部尤其是台東花蓮所以報到率也相對低 現在南部也很燙耶然後花東地區的大學都沒有土木系"},{"start":5858.224,"end":5883.597,"text":"所的設置啊所以我們才想到說會解決尤其是台東跟花蓮所以剛好在花蓮謝謝那個國營台灣鐵路公司借了一個場地在花蓮車站火車站這裡那跟宜蘭大學合作由宜蘭大學跟工程會來合辦這個學分班除了土木專業之外還有加上我們工程會也有一些採購啦或者是相關的"},{"start":5884.978,"end":5898.904,"text":"學相關的這個課程也在那裡那麼獲得很大的迴響那麼136個左右來報名那當然相關其他偏遠地區工程會也會持續來考量"},{"start":5900.516,"end":5927.959,"text":"主委那個南部部分再拜託這個優先來處理因為我們現在南部尤其我們郡縣委員我們台南以南現在很多重大工程那你現在沒有專業人才工程是要做下去的金錢就沒得當了對但是這個我們都有透過預算因為現在今年也沒有預算所以以後如果能夠編列的話我們當然很樂意到偏遠地區來設置這樣的所以主委不好意思講總預算還是要趕快過才有錢可以用"},{"start":5929.07,"end":5954.485,"text":"好 那謝謝主席 我在最後一分鐘針對我想這個釐清的一個問題我還是要拜託主委來幫忙那尤其目前我們有很多的這個道路的鋪設跟修補在進行但受到美伊戰爭的影響 釐清的價格嚴重飆漲從這個今年三月份 每公噸從一萬六千二漲到兩萬五千塊漲幅高達六成"},{"start":5955.225,"end":5972.372,"text":"那每公噸的濾清混凝土從2100淘到2300那像台南高雄屏東都面臨這樣一個缺濾清的一個問題甚至有傳出濾清的存量不足主委這個有沒有人為的一個因素或者是你們有調查什麼原因嗎"},{"start":5973.24,"end":5989.795,"text":"因為做柏油的原油來源大概來自中東了因為它是一種含環碗氫比較多的這個原油啦那因為中東戰爭嘛所以進來量就比較少所以能夠做柏油的就是台灣中油跟"},{"start":5991.016,"end":6012.48,"text":"台塑集團的台塑化那麼他們這個原油來得少那自然生產柏油就少那柏油少做瀝青就少那麼自然而然當然這個就缺料然後漲價就工程會而言我們認為如果是這種情形之下呢相關的公共工程可以有涉及物調的我們都認為應該這個"},{"start":6016.341,"end":6034.398,"text":"廠商跟再建工程的機關可以合一來物調那工期也可以展演不過我了解目前這個柏油的供應已經不是問題了因為台塑化它有兩條就是這個煉油的製程一個是煉製輕油一個是煉製這個"},{"start":6037.521,"end":6065.604,"text":"相關柏友這個製程他已經調高這個煉製的比例了調高煉製比例另外呢銷售銷售這個柏友的這個中塑公司中塑公司是台塑化的子公司那因為他本來在國外就有一些契約廠商固定每一個月一個月大概一萬公噸那我們這個卓院長也希望國內的這個廠商以供應國內的需求"},{"start":6067.166,"end":6095.125,"text":"優先啦謝謝台塑化跟中塑也非常配合那麼都採取這樣的一個動作那中油呢台灣中油陸續在市場上來採購這個現貨啦那採購現貨如果有了這個柏油啦那採購現貨之後呢也可以供應國內需求那麼根據我目前三個禮拜所掌握的資料那麼力清的供應的原料柏油啊供應已經沒有問題"},{"start":6096.305,"end":6125.116,"text":"好 這個案子也要麻煩我們主委來幫忙應該要進行跨部會的一個協調那確保我們國內的力清純亮不要讓我們所有的這個公共工程受到影響好 謝謝好 我們謝謝徐副委員另外也先跟大家報告待會萬美玲委員發言完畢我們休息十分鐘好 接下來我們邀請陳清榮委員發言"},{"start":6136.869,"end":6142.734,"text":"好 謝謝主席 請我們陳經德陳主委好 請陳主委好 謝謝委員長好 主委長那這邊我們今天的一個報告我們最主要有很大的一個重點在討論到我們花蓮馬太安溪的財後重建"},{"start":6164.893,"end":6180.404,"text":"那這個部分我想在報告裡面 主委這邊有一個簡要的說明那也告訴了我們可以在我們災後戶員重建專區這樣的一個網頁網站裡面也可以來看到各項的計畫"},{"start":6186.755,"end":6205.571,"text":"那從去年招待到現在我們看到的產出招人看到民間的一個動力但是我看到我們的報告我們總共編列了270億的一個特別預算那目前八個部會提出了39項的計畫其實這些計畫"},{"start":6210.134,"end":6232.541,"text":"我們現在報行政院來核准從網站的資料從報告的資料是4月2號才陸續核定所以我們現在在這個網頁重建專區裡面看到的也只有核准的公文跟核准的計畫那這個部分我跟你講那個不用急主委很簡單我"},{"start":6234.642,"end":6259.539,"text":"需要我們工程會這邊把我們現在執行財後重建的各個計畫的進度可能目前碰到的一個狀況或困難需要怎麼樣來解決處理的這樣的一個報告一個資料能夠詳細的提供給本席就好好沒問題好不好一個禮拜之內好不好好沒問題好那就麻煩我們主委這邊"},{"start":6260.8,"end":6277.946,"text":"第二個我想主委不只是我們工程會的主委也是我們的政府委員那對目前內政部國土署有關土方這樣的一個措施其實從年初宣布到現在問題已止了"},{"start":6280.367,"end":6303.201,"text":"沒有解決 不解決啦 困難要趕快 困難要趕快那最重要的已經應用了我們地方的公共工程這個公共工程也包括我們中央這個營建的廢棄土 公共的廢棄土沒有出戶 沒有出戶它延伸了這些土房不曉得要到哪裡去第二個 能夠處理的價格"},{"start":6305.862,"end":6335.342,"text":"就飆漲價格飆漲那這個部分我想說影響到公共工程的一個部分那還有價格土方處理價格的飆漲這樣的一個部分我們公共工程委員會這邊有沒有任何的一個因應的一個方式你來協調內政部有沒有協調各個地方政府有沒有來協調怎麼來處理第一個因應價格的一個"},{"start":6336.883,"end":6353.497,"text":"第二個土方沒有地方去那怎麼來處理是不是請主委做個報告報告委員這裡面就是說長期以來營建剩餘土石化跟營建剩餘廢棄物被混著一起討論了"},{"start":6355.979,"end":6374.626,"text":"所以營建生意土磁窗它是可用的資源我認同我同意被誤解為廢棄物對因為有夾雜一些比方說在營建過程當中的木材 塑膠那個才是廢棄物廢棄物就按照室內廢棄物處理營建生意土磁窗分了V1到V6"},{"start":6375.686,"end":6404.725,"text":"那是有用的資料還是可以去化的我了解 所以我們才會有A B C嘛所以我們希望在B的一個戰車廠可以做一些處理過去的設計呢這個雲間剩餘土石房呢A到B嘛那它直接到C的時候那邊的相關規定比較嚴格現在就是A B C A到B B到C就是說它能夠直接去去化的去處啊那現在A到C C就有問題嘛"},{"start":6405.886,"end":6412.836,"text":"這在西的去處不足不夠嘛不足還有一些法規法規的問題 我在這啦重點是這整個去處的問題也困擾我們台中市嘛台中市最主要要放在台中港嘛比方說喔 報告員比方說台中的土方"},{"start":6423.51,"end":6429.452,"text":"那個地方大概都是土石 沙灘啦那根本就是 那個根本是有用的東西那是資材喔對 所以呢你如果把它當作是廢棄物來看待的話還要進土資場 然後再篩分 再出去是浪費一個時間所以那個是直接可以賣給砂石廠的對台中的了解 對台中土層的一個了解"},{"start":6447.176,"end":6463.755,"text":"我謙卑主意 暫時怎麼樣還是要有去處啦那目前的一個方案就是要放在台中港目前台中港的包括港務局跟台中市政府其實就港務局能夠 它是負責提供土地嘛"},{"start":6464.915,"end":6476.079,"text":"整個那個土方的一個區處管理還有港區有很多他自己本身的限制條件包括你車要賣給他才有的這個大型車輛不能進入啦還有他有"},{"start":6481.841,"end":6507.603,"text":"牽涉到南端跟北端嘛有的要換坪 等等很多崗位要注意這個部分 我們工程會這邊 內政部這邊跟港務局跟台中市政府 你們有好好去合作嗎目前全部大概有台北港啦 還有高雄高雄港這本來就一個南興計畫我現在問你台中港啦 你告訴我台中港 你不要告訴我台北港台中部的部分喔台中部的部分"},{"start":6509.224,"end":6510.065,"text":"台中港是一個新的天然氣接收站"},{"start":6526.359,"end":6549.365,"text":"填海 這個要經過相關的計劃對 如果要填海 這些廢棄土能不能填海 這些相關規則我今天問你大眾港這個問題就是說這牽涉到我們因為土方的處置新制的一個產生的影響現在推出來的方案就是暫除"},{"start":6550.505,"end":6568.556,"text":"暫存在台中港那目前完全沒有進度嘛完全沒有進度嘛所以在這樣沒有進度的時候我也提出一個方案就是這個方案就是是不是公部門跟私部門可以直接來交換"},{"start":6570.777,"end":6594.799,"text":"就是我們這裡有公共工程,我們也有民間的工程你曉得主要說,台中的土豐,除了營建、賣氣、物,不要說整個土豐開發下去都是好的歷史、好的材料如果我們公共工程有需要,民間的營建工程要有它的出入,是不是啊?"},{"start":6595.419,"end":6624.318,"text":"可以來中介來做這樣的平台就是公部門跟私部門 不用說是吸直接需求跟供給能夠直接來出平台公對私 公對公 私對私 一步一步來做這樣可以生很多興奮 而且直接來協助解決而且這樣的一個方案 就有從媒體的一個報導"},{"start":6625.439,"end":6642.262,"text":"我看到台南目前就這樣做因為有發布新聞報 因為這樣做如果台南這樣做 我們工程會也OK 大家都OK是不是專攻 有機會來這樣做這個就是去土跟虛土機關的交換了"},{"start":6642.622,"end":6663.652,"text":"所以這個交換本的制度就存在那各縣市政府呢他也可以成立土方銀行來收或者是去化這個是也是地方政府就台中市來講我有知道我們有公營的利益就是那個公營的土資廠對土資廠但是就沒辦法跟班解決問題嘛我現在提出的就是說有"},{"start":6665.373,"end":6672.45,"text":"由政府 地方政府 那跟我們中央這邊啊大家一起來推動 讓它變一個一個很好的制度化"},{"start":6675.427,"end":6698.328,"text":"我們期待是這樣嘛,台南都OK啊,我們潮州阿關、潮汐台南都做到這麼好,是不是有機會?好,另外一個重點就是,潮州阿關有聽到魯明哲議員有提到濾清的問題嘛,濾清的問題也牽涉到我們地方的公共工程,不是跟你同樣的"},{"start":6699.589,"end":6714.907,"text":"大型的公共工程 地方的小型工程啊 給人家齁我過去齁 我要不來日本營啊 兩國會前更衣的案 肯定更衣的案在台中市中更衣的案 真的不像剛才的問題都說欸 委員 真的你錢有問題啊 土方不只沒氣出"},{"start":6720.373,"end":6721.073,"text":"所有地方基層基礎的建設款"},{"start":6750.833,"end":6751.254,"text":"謝謝陳其農委員的質詢"},{"start":6778.05,"end":6788.774,"text":"接著我們請萬美玲委員來質詢 謝謝謝謝主席 我們有請陳主委有請陳主委 那萬美玲委員質詢 我們休息10分鐘 謝謝委員長"},{"start":6798.426,"end":6818.985,"text":"主委早主委我想根據花蓮馬太安溪艷澀湖災後重建特別條例我們很清楚知道主管機關是行政院公共工程委員會就您這裡那本席也看到在工程會的業報當中施政成果跟重點你第一點就寫到是統籌災後復建重建深入災區強化協調 對嗎"},{"start":6822.97,"end":6849.351,"text":"主委剛剛報告當中我也聽到馬太安西燕色湖災後重建中央協調匯報是由陳主委擔任執行秘書每個月都會定期操開這個協調匯報來統合跨部會的資源協力推動災後災區重建的工作而且您也說到說工程會已經依馬太安重建條例第十一條規定建置這個重建的專區那確保民眾可以及時因為大家都很關心嘛"},{"start":6849.771,"end":6867.092,"text":"即時獲取正確完整的資訊那麼公開的內容我想是不是請主委看一下這個就是專區嗎這個是專區的內容嗎我是不是請負責的主管沒有主委先回答一下沒有錯吧因為應該是啦我從你的官網上拉下來的嘛"},{"start":6869.714,"end":6888.876,"text":"就這一個 就這個部分 因為這是你官網就沒有意義啦所以你也不要那麼緊張喔 我們就來看一下喔你看喔 現在在這個光復堤防一標 二標 三標的部分 大家都完成了但是在導流堤保護工的這個部分 實際進度其實只有36%跟7%然後你看 你的預定完工要在4月18號 可能嗎"},{"start":6892.684,"end":6904.654,"text":"跟委員報告這個是水利署那時候資料填錯那我們同仁有發現之後已經請那個水利署水利署資料給錯好 主委他們登記錯誤所以我們同仁發現請他再不好意思喔 這個是你們的專區耶"},{"start":6906.4,"end":6916.324,"text":"這是你們的官網專區你賴到水利署去這樣有對嗎?業務是水利署在執行當然是業務是水利署在執行所以你看這個應該這麼講就是說你是要負責協調然後配合督導考核等等的可是在你的官網上面資料嚴重錯誤按照你講嚴重錯誤我們來看到你所提的這個水利署"},{"start":6928.849,"end":6944.526,"text":"你看訊息就要來了如果按照你剛剛所說的進度還這麼落後甚至於這個下游才7%這是很可怕的事情所以其實是本席去問了水利署說你們的進度怎麼會這樣水利署才說沒有我們的進度很好我們來看下一張簡報我們來看到這個導流題的進度下一張"},{"start":6952.734,"end":6976.026,"text":"現在這個進度在這個馬太安溪你們自己的官網上面有寫到上游是36.2%那下游是7.78%然後呢這個水利署給我們的這個資料是其實它已經在上游完成了85%下游是72%那水利署的部分也告訴我們說沒有啊它是這樣子跟你們回報的啊就你們資料現在弄錯在這裡答詢還要賴給水利署怎麼對啊"},{"start":6978.423,"end":6996.997,"text":"整個水利工程在第一二三標的堤防就是這個藍邊的這個主要的高規格堤防會如期來完成主委我跟您報告喔這個部分呢是因為我們發現了這個地方我們去跟水利署詢問才發現水利署很認真在做工程的進度現在也如期"},{"start":6997.637,"end":7012.522,"text":"但是我覺得既然我們工程會是一個協調、審核的機關你怎麼可以在官網上面的數字這麼隨便我覺得這個可能要請同仁再加強要用心一點這個我們來改進這是弄錯了對不對是不是至少要知道現在有沒有錯錯在哪裡如果本席提出這樣的數據你都還不知道這就更可怕了一點"},{"start":7026.451,"end":7054.117,"text":"正確的已經在官網上主委你知道正確的怎麼會在官網上嗎也是今天早上才改的啊你今天早上才改的也就是說你昨天的進度都還7%今天就可以今天就可以來到72%所以我請業務主管來跟你說明好不好不用說明了這很清楚就是弄錯了那我覺得主委如果有弄錯官網上面的東西其實很重要從這個小地方也可以看得出來其實大家嚴謹度謹慎度不夠所以我希望主委能夠督導一下那"},{"start":7055.017,"end":7055.617,"text":"主委 你自己剛剛在報告最後也有提到說"},{"start":7087.519,"end":7104.054,"text":"台灣鐵路地下化這個進度有的是過去有些改善有些跟原計畫有一些更動那麼有些修正計畫那主委知道為什麼有這些更動嗎這是地方提出來的不是啦 主委"},{"start":7105.075,"end":7126.809,"text":"我覺得你既然是要督導這些公共工程就要很了解到底發生什麼事情嘛你當然是地方提出來為什麼會提出來因為中央的工程延宕了嘛這個發包的工程是在中央那我們過去有各種問題不管是這個缺工缺料不管是疫情不管是我們看到有文資保存等等但是工程呢就是在中央督導之下去延宕了所以我們才會有變更計畫那變更計畫出來了以後呢我們現在有一個變更計畫的預算還躺在行政院啊"},{"start":7132.813,"end":7149.274,"text":"所以現在是預算沒有下來 地方當然就不能動嘛所以這個大概769億的預算始終沒有核定我是在想 這也是屬於我們現在最大的困難就在這個地方是不是主委可以跟行政院這邊趕快催促一下我們這個核定計畫可以趕快核下來給我們 可以嗎"},{"start":7151.842,"end":7163.996,"text":"行政院正在審核當中因為相關 八個月了 全國的軌道建設經費非常龐大那有些這個根據今年度的根據這個"},{"start":7167.02,"end":7180.341,"text":"財政收支方法的編列有牽涉到未來的計劃型補助跟一般型補助的比例所以行政院向來就是很慎重那麼在調解當中那我們會盡速那麼來完成這個審議"},{"start":7181.843,"end":7198.658,"text":"您剛剛說我們要解決幫忙各機關去解決困難就是要知道它困難在哪裡您說的其實本席不認同啦我想上一次院長在跟我提到財化法的時候我當場也有跟他講其實這個跟財化法並沒有很大的關係為什麼我要這樣子講第一個呢過去財化法還沒有開始的時候其實進度就是嚴重延宕那個延宕才產生了變更計畫當中多出來的預算這是第一個第二個我們都知道"},{"start":7208.947,"end":7236.05,"text":"這個中央鐵道的這個工程是歸中央來這個這個掌管喔那本來就是應該中央來協助地方嘛那再來呢我們財化法這件事情講到我都講嘴破不想再講了財化法這個東西不管是以前賴清德在做這個地方首長的時候或者是現在大家都知道要擬平地方跟中央財政的一個缺口或讓它更平衡所以這個財化法從以前到現在民進黨也好國民黨也好大家都認為是要修的所以不要把工程的延宕又講到財化法再來"},{"start":7237.651,"end":7243.313,"text":"再來我再告訴你一個問題再來我再告訴你一個問題再來我再告訴你一個問題你是要講還是要聽啊沒有修成這樣啊你不用聽喔不是我們在質詢你不要聽怎麼知道我要問什麼問題啊我有在聽那你現在要聽還是要講大家不要用這種方式來打詢好不好這種方式打詢不好啦我們要把問題聽清楚嘛"},{"start":7259.793,"end":7274.866,"text":"你認為是才化法但是這個問題呢院長提出來的時候我有跟他溝通他也沒有再這麼堅持那再來呢我剛剛提到鐵路這個軌道的這個建設尤其是我們鐵路地下化是中央需辦事項那你知道嗎你剛剛講到才化法那我們就來講嘛"},{"start":7276.087,"end":7302.654,"text":"我們現在那個萬大樹林線二期喔然後再來高雄小港陵園線它的追加經費的這個變更計畫也過啦不但過了 中央還分攤的比例還更多那這是怎麼樣 這是因為看黨派嗎我一直不想這樣子講欸對不對 建設是國家的建設啦誰都有可能來桃園做到鐵路地下化的成果嘛那為什麼我們這個萬大樹林線的二期跟高雄小港陵園線就可以合訂呢"},{"start":7304.268,"end":7326.184,"text":"這個整個鐵道建設軌道建設全國非常多啦這裡1000例那裡2000例那裡900億整個中央整個行政院必須統籌來評估啦那至於台灣鐵路地下化沒有什麼黨派他從過去就提出來嘛鄭文燦當八年台灣市長努力爭取調高了很多這個相關的預算這個都是歷史"},{"start":7326.664,"end":7330.011,"text":"所以行政院不會特別考量現在誰當市長或者是當市長所以我只是說錢的問題那行政院在審議當中"},{"start":7336.24,"end":7362.83,"text":"那跟過去誰提出來財化法要修沒有相關是嘛那財化法是你剛剛提的嘛現在你又說沒有相關我要講啦這個是鄭文燦市長當時啊也上來跟國發會很認真的去爭取希望中央的比例能夠負擔更多一點嘛所以我們也很謝謝鄭文燦市長啊所以沒有再分藍綠嘛但現在的問題就在於既然其他我們有重大的公共工程尤其是交通工程我們在變更計畫跟經費的增加上面我們都有核定"},{"start":7363.59,"end":7384.601,"text":"主委我們這個鐵路地下化這個追加預算已經提出來八個月了八個月了那到底是什麼情況你也幫我們關心一下嘛站在你的立場你幫我們關心一下可不可以這個我們會了解啦只是我跟您報告就是說全國的軌道竟然非常多然後有的修正計畫一再修正也有審議相當久的桃園並不是特例啦"},{"start":7384.821,"end":7398.872,"text":"哪一個比桃園8個月更久你告訴我我會去看哪一個我會去看你在這邊都提出來說有更久的表示你知道啊那如果你不知道就是在這邊亂說一通是不是所以哪一個嘛我不會亂說哪一項計畫比我們更久你告訴我我不會亂說啦哪一項計畫呢我會去查"},{"start":7400.304,"end":7424.958,"text":"怎麼可以這樣 你根本都不知道 你就在這邊搪塞全國重大預算 修正的不是 主委 應該這樣講嘛你自己跟我說 其實喔這個五月的預算 八個月不算久 有很多比我們更久那你胸有成竹的講出來 現在在備詢 你就應該要告訴我是哪一個更久 如果這是一個常態 那我們吞下來它如果不是一個常態 為什麼桃園要等待特別久呢你知道這種交通黑暗期 對我們桃園那真的是 我們所有的市民苦不堪言啊"},{"start":7426.872,"end":7439.341,"text":"所以哪一個呢 哪一個計畫比我們更久 你告訴我我會去了解再跟委員報告什麼時候什麼時候可以跟我回覆我們全國來這個整個調整 來整個來審全國現在才下去了解 然後你跟我講有"},{"start":7440.492,"end":7467.783,"text":"我們會提供給你啦到底有還是沒有嘛我們去查所以你不知道你剛剛還告訴我說其實有比我們更久的主委不可以這樣啦真的不可以這樣我建議把答詢的態度改變一下有就是有 沒有就是沒有要再查就是要再查你不可以告訴我說你桃園八個月不算久核定還沒下來也不算什麼你不可以這樣子啦我希望答詢的態度經費不算少啦所以不像說一般工程能夠立即的核定"},{"start":7468.823,"end":7484.376,"text":"所以行政院我們沒有立即合定啊八個月了我們沒有立即合定我們也是覺得應該慢慢談但是八個月了所以主委你願意為我們桃園鐵路地下化向行政院發聲一下嗎我一直在注意桃園鐵路地下化的工作我們一再同意修正計畫"},{"start":7486.172,"end":7505.709,"text":"那如果您再也同意而且一再的修正一再的增加修正已經最後計畫送出去了已經送出去了那時就是在行政院這麼久沒有再修正過了所以呢您剛也說您同意來協助那就拜託您是不是可以跟院長講一下到底問題在哪裡要不然趕快核定給我們好嗎好謝謝好謝謝萬美玲委員的資訊那我們現在休息十分鐘"},{"start":7530.748,"end":7538.936,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7558.308,"end":7561.333,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":8121.203,"end":8134.572,"text":"好 我們接著繼續開會 那接著有請我們秋若華委員來諮詢謝謝主席 主席有請我們陳主委有請我們陳主委"},{"start":8144.262,"end":8159.961,"text":"委員早 主委早 主委首先還是要和您討論和確認我們國家的基礎建設所需要的基礎關鍵資材剛剛有很多委員 包括徐副會委員也有提到也就是濾青它雖然看起來只是一般的材料可是也是關乎到國人的日常生活道路維護"},{"start":8161.042,"end":8175.488,"text":"那我們現在的情況是台灣正面臨國際原物料的波動還有國內產能供給調整的雙重佳績所以想要先請問主委那這樣子的雙重因素兩個因素加在一起會不會影響接下來的公共工程的正常執行呢這個"},{"start":8178.379,"end":8205.019,"text":"因為是戰爭嘛所以引起的原油進來台灣受限所以導致柏油減產那利清就少所以公共工程委內也發函那麼也發新聞稿像這樣的因素導致你的成本增加那麼雙方就主辦機關跟這個業者可以做物調主委您現在掌握到他漲幅的程度是多少實際掌握我請這個我們來說明"},{"start":8215.473,"end":8235.304,"text":"這個是之前的資料 是那麼北部漲幅大概14%中部漲幅10%那麼南部漲幅16%東部漲幅13%這個是 應該這個資料 您說到的這些漲幅都是在20%以內那目前他工會 立青工會他有表示已經上漲35%了嗎"},{"start":8237.085,"end":8253.864,"text":"那我也有特別看到經濟部說目前的存量可以到五月底如果後續順利的話就是可以延長至六月那行政院也有表示他會優先供應緊急重大的工程那這邊還是要請教主委喔那我們現行的處理方式還是事後才來申請嗎"},{"start":8257.049,"end":8283.822,"text":"我們先行的制度就是等廠商來申請然後等價格他反映了他的指數反映之後才再來調整這個就是禮約的過禮約的協調所以我們也同意說公共工程的方面是要能夠做物調我整個量我跟委員說明台塑化的紫光是中塑那邊還有四萬五千噸的庫存那"},{"start":8285.002,"end":8297.637,"text":"所以這個對工程會來說是安全的庫存量嗎對 中碩他也會停止就是國外契約供應商的需求會優先提供國內那台灣中油他會去採購現貨"},{"start":8299.859,"end":8318.05,"text":"所以根據我得到的資料 台塑化它也增加了生產的比例所以目前是沒有問題 柏油的供應是沒有問題的現在主委的說明 不過還是要請問主委一個問題你們有沒有去跨部會然後進行協商機制將公共工程用的力勤把它列為優先的配售物質力勤 是 公共工程用的力勤"},{"start":8324.609,"end":8349.663,"text":"這個就看合約啦所以我們初步了解是沒有問題那我下午也會再召集另外一次協商啦那比較確定各部會還有這個相關供應商那麼對於柏油濾青的供應的狀況是所以請主委去做深度的討論那這邊也想要請教主委是不是可以建立一個自動觸發的調整機制針對這些高波動向式濾青因為我也看到在去年114"},{"start":8350.703,"end":8367.054,"text":"在114年的時候 力清它的關鍵原料像是柏油還有它的燃料有受到國際能源的波動它曾經一度漲幅到20%那它每噸是1.25萬台幣那我這邊想請問你們最新在網站上面公告的價格是多少"},{"start":8369.943,"end":8391.089,"text":"那跟委員報告那我們濾清混凝土的價格那我們根據查的歷史資料來查的話應該是說一直到今年二月其實價格都差不多那唯一有一個波動是到那個就是我想問的問題因為你們最新公布的資料到二月二十八為什麼只有到二月二十八號但是三月份的話我們是最近才要公布最近什麼時候才會公布"},{"start":8392.909,"end":8413.6,"text":"我們大概最近這個禮拜就會這個禮拜就會公布這個禮拜才會公布三月那我們觀察到這個波動其實真的就是今年的三月相較於二月以前他的波動就是剛剛主委跟跟您說明的那幾個幅度確實是在20%那現在剛剛主委也曾經也說明過其實根據經濟部所掌握的這個瀝青油的"},{"start":8413.84,"end":8440.61,"text":"那沒關係 那我再來請教主委主委你應該說不會影響國內的重大公共建設嗎?還有工程嗎?所以供應量是沒有問題 那麼行政院呢副院長也是每個禮拜召開那麼這些有關的因為中油公司他也把他產能轉向高他高價值的油品那3月也對力勤開市進行管控了那這樣子也會導致地方政府的工程也會連帶送餘下因為我看到平均進場施工的時間拉到2到4週拉長到2到4週"},{"start":8443.536,"end":8472.482,"text":"就是我們把它簡單來區分了就是關於禮約的問題將來會到工程會來諮詢或者是協商那麼工程會都同意那麼支持物條那主委您要特別留意喔因為現在目前桃園就已經有工程包商他們表示因為買不到料而要他們就是說先申請暫時停工喔那我們不希望等到到時候全國的道路也連帶的受影響因為我跟委員報告就是目前掌握的狀況不會有供應沒有問題啦"},{"start":8473.522,"end":8477.346,"text":"國際情勢這個兩個來源台灣中油跟台塑化我們還是要以防萬一因為接下來進入汛期如果很不幸的風災還是颱風到路鋪面受到影響我們不希望到時候"},{"start":8497.965,"end":8516.847,"text":"所以行政院一直在掌控相關的民生物資的價格包括濾青每個禮拜都會開一次會主委這邊也在最後請問您一個問題大型的捷運工程它近年也淪為營造市場的高風險標案甚至是拒絕往來戶你有沒有意識到這個問題"},{"start":8520.294,"end":8544.396,"text":"土方是土方的這個方案已經30多年了那過去設置土資場然後到土資場之後篩分之後分成有加料去做其他使用或者是廢棄物或者是進行加工但是土資場的量事實上是現實上它是不夠容納那麼多土方的"},{"start":8545.319,"end":8546.664,"text":"土方也是集中一環所有的土自產環要加起來"},{"start":8550.456,"end":8578.556,"text":"所謂的土方根本量比那個超過很多那些東西到哪裡去了過去只是大家有一個灰色地帶土方是其中一環那我這邊也要跟主委提到本席舉例桃園的捷運工程延伸中立段它已經流標四次了今年又重新招標又流標已經總共第五次了那它的底價其實已經就是提高到將近八成可是還是沒有廠商願意投標你們在你們之前也有提到其實流標率是40%沒有錯吧那要怎麼來改善這個問題"},{"start":8579.497,"end":8605.18,"text":"如果是因為土方的問題那土方的戰志或填海等等那麼內政部一直在努力當中除了內政部努力當中那工程會這邊針對廠商然後他們的意願你們要怎麼來就是協助他們工程會當然會協助內政部那麼就土方的機制土方土方的機制跟去處相關法規那麼我站在"},{"start":8606.081,"end":8630.579,"text":"兼任政委的身份 讓某位持續在協調當中其實土方只是其中一個因素那當然就是缺工缺料 整大環境的因素下造成就是工程會延宕 然後還有流標那這邊也要特別提醒主委那現在工程會的問題你們不是沒有制度 而是你們的制度都是還是停留在低波動的時代那什麼時候你們會去正視這個問題就是把現在高波動的風險也納入你們的考量"},{"start":8634.266,"end":8661.142,"text":"我們兩個方案可以可以同意物調這是我們的主張另外就供期的部分也希望說這個機關跟這個業者可以合意那麼也可以這個增加供期這是要解決目前這樣子的一個招標遇到困難的問題好那謝謝主委您的說明那也再請把最新的價格趕緊放在公共工程網的網站上面好謝謝"},{"start":8664.002,"end":8680.575,"text":"好謝謝我們邱若驊委員的質詢我們接著有請我們何欣春委員好謝謝主席那我們請呃陳金德陳主任委員呃有請我們陳主委"},{"start":8686.311,"end":8688.353,"text":"委員長主委好我今天想談談的是無人機我想行政院我們中央已經宣布要建立無人機的非紅供應鏈三大政策 五大策略共同要推動無人機的國家隊為什麼我特別關注這一題"},{"start":8705.928,"end":8709.129,"text":"因為事實上無人機的一個零組件非常完整的供應鏈在台中台中的產業是無人機的國家對的政策目標當作是我們產業能夠轉型升級的一個重要的契機當然在推動的過程裡面"},{"start":8729.015,"end":8753.013,"text":"我們五大策略裡面最重要的是所謂的產業聚落的生態系以及制定使用規範跟推動資安檢測那共同的來完成這個2027無人機要全部飛紅供應鏈的一個目標這個我想主委你知道啦那為什麼我要特別要在我們公共工程委員會的今天的業務報告裡面來談這一題下一頁"},{"start":8756.499,"end":8771.442,"text":"我事實上在2020是最早提出當時候在那之前2020之前我們政府各行政單位大部分的無人機有七成以上是中國製的"},{"start":8772.905,"end":8791.588,"text":"那一年我在總諮詢的時候跟蘇院長提到這件事蘇院長才開始盤點我們各個機關裡面到底對於中國製的無人載具、無人機還有多少第二個"},{"start":8793.101,"end":8814.211,"text":"蘇院長當時也承諾從公務機關公務部門自身做起要盡速的來編列預算該淘汰要淘汰趕快責成副院長來盤點那目前呢我不知道各部會在採購無人機的一個中國製的一個比例"},{"start":8815.592,"end":8821.279,"text":"第一個我們原則已經禁用第二個那禁用了之後我們要繼續編預算來採購採購這個"},{"start":8826.178,"end":8853.45,"text":"絕對不能有這個中國製的一個比例那還有這個整個非紅供應鏈的一個我們對於各部門各行政機關到底有沒有能力去檢視或者是呢他採購了之後要結標在採購的過程裡面到底能不能確認這一台他要買的無人機裡面有沒有紅色供應鏈的零組件這個部分主委你知道嗎"},{"start":8855.206,"end":8876.822,"text":"無人機當然首先是國防的需求不一定喔我先解釋給你聽就是因為面對中國一直文攻武嚇所以我們要短時間之內能夠國防有足夠能夠來防衛的無人機這個無人機我們希望能夠國內把它變成一種產業"},{"start":8879.624,"end":8886.909,"text":"軍用的是一種我今天講的2020我那時候提出來是我要告訴你喔內政部有無人機做什麼防災"},{"start":8889.625,"end":8915.863,"text":"或者是呢農業部有無人機 做什麼巡山森林守護然後呢這個消防署有無人機也是在做救護或者是呢在災難發生的時候他們可以去使用無人機當為他們的輔助工具在那個當下不是只有軍用的無人機各部會裡面都有使用無人機的人以及呢採購無人機那這個採購過去並沒有"},{"start":8920.545,"end":8943.07,"text":"並沒有規範過去都沒有規範所以在2020我才會告訴你各部會裡面有超過七成以上的使用的無人機是中國製那在那之後2020之後我才會跟你們說為了防止資安風險因為每一台中國製的無人機裡面它的系統是不是有回報的後門"},{"start":8944.41,"end":8958.231,"text":"資訊是不是被直接嫁接到中國去這個都是治安的風險也是我們國安的風險所以蘇院長在當年有承諾要禁訴的盤點跟汰換那接著我當然知道 來"},{"start":8959.403,"end":8981.073,"text":"下一頁我們公務機關要排除資安風險的時候政府採購全面禁用中國貨在前一任工程會主委吳哲成吳主委的時候曾經也有明確的態度表示公務機關呢頻頻報違規使用中國貨尤其地方政府地方政府也有在使用無人機"},{"start":8982.694,"end":8988.239,"text":"地方政府的無人機採購到底有沒有符合我們現在的一個原則全面禁用中國貨那個時候吳主委說不聽就要出分了啦那是在2022我從2020指出這件事情之後要政府來重視關注2022我們地方政府還有一些行政單位"},{"start":9004.915,"end":9020.533,"text":"持續違規在使用中國貨所以才會讓這個當時候的吳主委落下重話再講不聽就處分那我們呢包括不是只有地方政府包括各大學包括他們在使用研究也好"},{"start":9021.093,"end":9043.872,"text":"或者是呢 他們的一個創新大學有沒有在使用無人機 很多 很多領域都在使用那我們還要求教育部跟大學端說要重研認定禁用入場的資訊產品這個當然是逐步的來禁用 逐步的來重研那我現在問的是 我們公共工程委員會"},{"start":9045.513,"end":9046.114,"text":"那我跟委員說明"},{"start":9073.574,"end":9088.074,"text":"從今年開始三年大概有個351到400億各部會才是大量採購無人機過去是不多因為大陸的大疆市佔率太高了不只台灣其他國家也都是有大疆的"},{"start":9088.655,"end":9103.586,"text":"那為了因應未來三年這個各部會採購的無人機那工程會訂立一個無人機的採購指引跟共同供應契約那我是不是請我們負責的副主委或主任來講一下好 副主委來 下一頁我知道副主委要跟我講因為我有看到了因為飛鴻供應鏈"},{"start":9105.427,"end":9132.285,"text":"我們政府的大目標政策所以呢工程會終於從2020我開始在講這件事的時候到現在2026我們提出了一個採購指引那我只想問第一個這個採購指引今年的2月24號出來的那採購指引實施到現在有沒有碰到問題再來我們未來如何落實各部會的稽查 稽核"},{"start":9133.408,"end":9148.486,"text":"首先跟委員報告就是說我們的指引出來以後原則上面我們是採用共約啦那我們是這一次是盤點所有中央部會地方政府有包括嗎大學端有包括嗎"},{"start":9148.826,"end":9172.782,"text":"他會透過譬如說教育部他就透過他們去盤點那內政部可能他也把地方政府的需求盤點進來那我們今年是委託台灣銀行做共約的採購所以在整個招標跟審標禮約將來驗收等等會有一套標準的作業就是針對委員剛剛關心的這個標準的作業什麼時候出來"},{"start":9174.051,"end":9200.454,"text":"現在已經有指引了就是靠這個指引問題是台穎的這個共同採購契約裡面他們呢對於這一套指引熟嗎他們可以認定在這個整機裡面的飛鴻供應鏈是不是他的零組件來自飛鴻供應鏈我們有派人員在整個那個採購的座位裡面去派多少人一個我們主任秘書就派一個而已我們是最熟悉"},{"start":9201.824,"end":9224.291,"text":"還有工作小組還有採購評選委會他有很多個不同的機制我們都有派人在裡面我們這邊這是特別我必須要問說那我還在核心的一句話啦那他們懂無人機嗎無人機裡面大大小小還有系統零組件的所謂的非紅供應鏈的定義跟認定標準又是什麼有那個原則上面整機不行嘛"},{"start":9225.351,"end":9249.862,"text":"那有去盤點說目前台灣自己比較欠缺的是哪一些項目那只有針對那一些被動的元件那目前盤點出來大概就是光學鏡啊磁鐵等等的這個我們現在做不到所以我們要求到明年開始要全面的嘛那在沒有辦法做到這個以前那其他的都不行啊"},{"start":9250.55,"end":9266.081,"text":"我必須要告訴主委副主委跟各位我們今天問這一題是因為第一個我們禁用中國貨那我們也不希望有資安疑慮的無人載具進入我們的政府體系這是國安問題"},{"start":9269.81,"end":9292.97,"text":"最終我們要怎麼替代替代就是行政院宣布這個無人機的產業整個供應鏈希望在台灣能夠自給自足可以自己供應那這個供應鏈呢對我們台中來講非常重要而且我們有完整的供應鏈我也非常希望我們台中的這個無人機的完整供應鏈它所生產出來的無人機可以"},{"start":9293.95,"end":9304.354,"text":"為政府所採購那在這個愛用國貨而且呢是在國防安全自主的一個情況之下我們希望把無人機產業能夠從外銷轉內銷啦我們希望我們自己的產業能夠獲得支持那政府的採購可以呢在地採購讓台中的傳統產業可以轉型升級我們有自信我們可以但是呢在這個"},{"start":9320.319,"end":9338.477,"text":"之前我就必須要請公共工程委員會在你的採購作業指引裡面那對於現在的採購的一個這個非紅供應鏈的認定那認定如果要重演也要重演重演之下我們如何引導政府各單位來做一個"},{"start":9341.448,"end":9366.236,"text":"好的採購啦合法合規而且呢是能夠在地自主的採購啦報告委員除了民間這些我們的國防需求量非常大在任性預算裡面有2000億我們希望在國內來來生產但國內目前還沒有那個量跟相關的技術還不夠的狀況之下會有國外的廠商來合作我們可以是啊是啊"},{"start":9366.576,"end":9386.175,"text":"除了供應國內國防需求所以當然不能有紅色我們除了供應自己國內的需求之外我成功了之後我還可以外銷到其他國家去啊所以這個就是賴總統講的民主供應鏈那既然是民主供應鏈就不能有大疆的產品就不能有大陸的所以我們要扶持自己的我們國家的品牌的廠商嘛不要說民用的"},{"start":9390.399,"end":9417.42,"text":"然後國防需求了 將來我們變成一個產業要外銷的所以一定要培養自製的能力那這個自製能力就是要擺脫所有的中國製的產品 目的是這樣子所以我就希望公共工程委員會 因為你是政府採購的主管機關的最上位 那我們的未來在這一個飛虹供應鏈的一個這個建立之下 如何落實各部會的稽查 我最後一頁我為什麼會講到這個你現在今年才訂這個"},{"start":9421.083,"end":9446.021,"text":"這個指引那在訂指引之前過去採購的無人機如何集合這個請給我一個書面報告因為時間到了第二個那現在作業指引訂定了之後那我們的採購集合的能量所以我才問說你們有多少人啊對不對那你們集合的過程又是如何啊那發現問題又該如何解決那如何管控治安的風險這個再拜託這個很重要好不好"},{"start":9449.363,"end":9478.142,"text":"再給我一個書面的一個完整的一個答覆謝謝好謝謝何欣存委員的質詢我們接著有請黃建豪召委來質詢好謝謝主席主席我們要先請工程會陳金德主委有請陳主委"},{"start":9483.932,"end":9505.968,"text":"委員長主委早主委我想棒球迷都非常的關切上週發生的這個亞太球場的事情那我們回到法規面來我想跟主委要個答案就是說這個台南那時候體育局的招標案件就說他是視為是這個收入性質的採購那所以他當初在公告的時候是4月2號公告那4月7號結標中間有廉價嘛"},{"start":9508.45,"end":9526.179,"text":"那扣掉廉價之後換句話說這個從這個辦公日大概只有兩天到三天左右的時間喔所以我想要確定一下像這樣子的狀況他未達公告金額標案最短等標期的七日這個法定下限這樣子的狀況到底是不是合法的我請副主委來跟你們說"},{"start":9529.696,"end":9552.31,"text":"首先跟委員報告就我們了解亞太球場它這個周邊攤商這一次它的那個標案事實上它採用的有點像是出租它的空間啦所以嚴格講起來它並不屬於政府採購法裡面所講的這個採購那當然如果要進一步問就是說"},{"start":9552.91,"end":9575.309,"text":"以他這種的情況他理論上他有三種方式可以處理一個當然是直接用類似財產的出租另外他可以走這個促餐就是這個OT另外一個當然就是說兩條路都走不通以後那麼政府採購法裡面他還有老物的一個採購那目前看起來他走的"},{"start":9575.99,"end":9590.322,"text":"比較像是把空間出租所以基本上面這個並不是機關付錢給他是他把錢繳回來所以第一個在程序上面那第二個在他的這個假設"},{"start":9591.443,"end":9613.926,"text":"它是政府採購的話那麼因為理論上政府採購這個雖然工程規定有一個等標期最低但是最低的期限並不表示說啊你只要扶那個基本上法規規定是要合理的期限啊它如果說這個等標期裡面絕大部分都是在休假理論上一看應該是不合理啦那會產生這樣的一個問題"},{"start":9615.612,"end":9642.161,"text":"副主任你剛剛講說這看起來沒有違法違規那我要確定如果你們今天這樣講的話那未來政府機關要辦理相關的這種把空間出租出去不管是球場不管是商場不管是公共空間他是不是都可以適用這樣正式的標準他就是公共告知當然他現在是廢標了當然廢標原因待會給你討論到底什麼原因廢標但是我要問說如果未來這個說法是合理是可行的話未來各地方政府"},{"start":9642.981,"end":9662.671,"text":"是不是都可以這樣我就是今天公告我下禮今天公告我後天就絕標可以這樣嗎我要確定這件事情跟委員報告如果是政府採購目前在檢討以現在雖然我們是法規講說合理期限那我們給他一個最低期限那機關他可能會覺得我只要符合最低就好他沒有去考慮合理性"},{"start":9663.371,"end":9689.563,"text":"那我們未來檢討的方向會是以說他這個廠商實際可以工作的天數來算比較合理啦那至於如果是屬於財產的出租等等因為不是工程會的職權那當然他如果願意比照將來整個調整以後也許就會整個程序上面比較合理啦所以未來這種所謂的這種所謂收入性質啦這種出租的收入性質採購"},{"start":9691.465,"end":9705.222,"text":"因為你剛剛講他可能你不符合傳統一般政府採購的這種什麼七天的或是電子開標五天的那種的這個場所空間出租並不是機關出錢是這個陳租人他繳錢給機關我們務實一點面對當然他不是政府出錢不過"},{"start":9711.857,"end":9734.713,"text":"我今天已經確定說如果我能夠標到這案子坦白說啦對廠商來講是大利多某種程度上是獨佔嘛所以他還是有這個程序上還是有盈利的問題啊所以現在才講說未來有沒有一個標準像這種所謂的收入性的採購他的等標期還有沒有這種有沒有這種要求還是就開放那我可以今天早上上班公告下午結標嗎"},{"start":9736.014,"end":9753.995,"text":"如果沒有標準的話因為他不屬於政府採購我沒有辦法太低其他機關但是我覺得啦就是說從本質上來講他既然是要公開讓各個廠商都來合理當然是說要讓所有可能參與的商家他有合理的準備嘛"},{"start":9754.455,"end":9767.775,"text":"但是法律的原則一定是這樣子啊那自己實際上他要怎麼操作也許如果說其他機關他沒有明確那麼他來參考工程會的對政府採購的規定那這個我們覺得是很樂見"},{"start":9769.335,"end":9790.767,"text":"好那接下來我想問一下我們這個政府採購法這個之前說要修法的部分這個本來說要修法那當然有很多原因嘛包含說這個希望改善工程照標的效率然後希望說這個加速我們這個行政上的這個效率不要說每次都這麼多常常有流標常常這個沒有人來標的狀況發生那我想問一下現在這個狀況"},{"start":9792.418,"end":9813.104,"text":"我們希望也希望說從第一個要提升政府效率第二個要說從源頭去解決這種過去有廠商去違法借標這種情況發生那現在暫緩修法那未來工程會會不會繼續往這個修法方向去做那以及現在能不能去處理到我本來你本來提修法是因為解決現狀這些問題嗎那現在如果暫時沒有要修的話那這些問題要怎麼處理"},{"start":9818.614,"end":9833.171,"text":"這個修法已經醞釀了一段時間我們之前參考過機關跟一些工協會比如說營建工會等等這些的意見所以提出預告"},{"start":9833.692,"end":9848.472,"text":"在預告之後呢會有一些不同意見那大致上已經有收斂所以呢我們才準備要送行政院但是後來又出現了一些媒體的意見所以我們認為我們需要多思考"},{"start":9849.033,"end":9872.951,"text":"所以我們會打算在更進一步的了解機關跟相關的意見之後呢會再進行預告所以這個還持續在推動當中所以最快呢應該是今年年底之前能夠重新預告那在此之前呢我們會把所有各界質疑的一一來克服一一再來思考那麼的確是需要修改的就修改"},{"start":9873.331,"end":9901.579,"text":"如果說因為這個修改如果導致其他的相關的問題出來那我們會進一步來考量就不去動相關的條文來主委 我跟你分享啦當然這是我們的講法就是說到底問題卡在哪裡當然最大最大的這個爭點一定是說所謂的本來要三家那可能未來都類似採最有利標這個狀況那因為三家坦白講對辦這個採購的購入來講它某種程度上是一種保障那如果未來如果假設修好方向一樣是往這個"},{"start":9902.919,"end":9923.102,"text":"單一一家投標就可以的話我覺得對採購的公務員來講就對這些承辦人啦這種裁量的這種權利在他手上那未來如果發生爭議他一定會有法律風險我們這裡面有很多前提就是說你當你這個機關預算通過之後就必須對他公告相關預算內容就知道了"},{"start":9923.462,"end":9941.855,"text":"那政府採購在政府採購網上面都有都有公告那現在也是電子領標電子投標然後希望等標期長希望預告期長在這些前提之下呢那麼回到這個決標的三家改成一家才有這樣的這個修法"},{"start":9942.435,"end":9961.305,"text":"而且呢我們現在第二次開標第二次招標的事就第一次流標第二次第二次就不限三家也是在進行啦就是有一些配套在進行但是已經被外界誤解了那我跟委員報告越是巨額採購那個軌道啦重大工程動輒幾百億千億的能投標的"},{"start":9962.445,"end":9975.404,"text":"廠商不多嘛對不對那如果這些廠商呢他認為說不然再等一下啦那因為金額不夠再等一下啦所以那個就勢必預算金額就會提高那"},{"start":9976.587,"end":9996.983,"text":"如果說經常我們政府這些巨額採購都會面臨這樣問題所以說如果說整個等標期夠長然後呢這個決標的方法也明確比方說是選商嘛所以改成一家的話反而會造成有醫院投標人他不會親力的不投"},{"start":9997.642,"end":10014.908,"text":"好我想這個是業界的立場你如果去看我們的政府我知道我要跟主委講說其實重點還是說回到政府採購法本身是我們今天我今天提這個問題主要還是要擔心為公務人員去講這個事情就是說你要把相關的配套很明確化的未來萬一有"},{"start":10016.508,"end":10033.213,"text":"萬一有人沒得標去投訴去告圖利那你要讓這個承辦人員他應該在法律上能夠站住腳目前現實上對那是沒有問題這些前提都做到目前現實上就是有些機關金額不大不小的會造成他很大的困擾"},{"start":10034.213,"end":10059.729,"text":"就是一定要三家啦所以他這是造成很大的困擾然後也因此有一些這個案子已經發生我請副主委再跟補充說一下跟我再補充就是說有點誤解說取消三家還要認了一家來就開票事實上不是這樣因為每個標案他有資格限制他可能會訂定基本資格他要訂定特定的資格還有他提供服務的規格"},{"start":10060.529,"end":10078.854,"text":"他必須這些都符合以後他才能進入要不要決標給他這是第一個啦那第二個當時會這樣的考量是因為很多機關的反應他是這樣子因為他有三家他有執行時效的問題所以在實務上最常看到的是機關請他去找三家"},{"start":10080.81,"end":10108.411,"text":"那他就會有一點變成是機關有一點讓他跳了一個陷阱他基本上面他以現在的環境他很難去微飆啊因為現在都是電子公告嘛他也不曉得有多少廠家會來他只是擔心假設說今天因為不足三家那我的備標成本都不見了他是基於這樣的心態可能為了讓他符合形式上面他並不是真的有辦法去微飆啦"},{"start":10109.051,"end":10132.942,"text":"那當然最有正反的意見我們都還在通盤的這個研議好因為時間差不多最後一題最後一個問題一樣是政府採購法就是說今天這個因為我們委員提到說三政條款的部分如果它過去多是被政府列為所謂的拒絕往來的廠商名單那希望說未來這樣的廠商或這樣的營業人他就不應該繼續有這個投票的資格我不知道共產黨立場對這樣子的想法這樣的修法方向支不支持"},{"start":10134.184,"end":10151.154,"text":"各位包括就是說目前對於停權的機制怎麼調整各方意見非常多包括要不要所謂的三振條件等於是永久不足他參與標案的資格就這個議題目前我們在跟各個單位研討的狀況底下"},{"start":10152.094,"end":10170.317,"text":"絕大部分的意見認為這個有點違反比例的原則所以我們目前基本上的規劃是朝比較這個中間的就是說延長目前可以停權的把它數次的這個停權的時效還有在不同機關裡面去做一個盤整"},{"start":10171.218,"end":10194.267,"text":"那麼每一個機關原則上可以停到五年那如果他的停權是有再加上其他機關他有可能會停到五年十年十五年那取一個中間當然我目前並沒有排除說一定不要這一個所謂的三政條款但是就確實跟這個委員報告我們聽到目前為止法律界都反對啦"},{"start":10194.847,"end":10200.014,"text":"好沒關係最後那這個主委副主委你們就把這個討論剛剛三政條款討論的這種討論給我們一份資料好不好好好謝謝謝謝黃健雅召委的質詢那我們接著請陳宣委員質詢"},{"start":10221.718,"end":10248.145,"text":"好 謝謝主席 請陳主委好 也請陳主委委員長主委這兩天啦這個中共習主席習總書記對金門馬祖釋出一些利多也就是這個新四通新四通裡面包含了通水、通電、通氣、通橋"},{"start":10250.22,"end":10268.336,"text":"早上我看也有委員在質詢這個問題嘛所以你認為因為你督導水利、電力都你們督導的嘛你認為在政黨還沒有輪替的情況之下有可能跟對岸談這個問題嗎?"},{"start":10271.918,"end":10286.648,"text":"包委員我是覺得所有的事情都可以談啦基於民生需要但是呢我們要了解我們的對岸對我們並不友善那麼他有一些企圖而且有時候呢也不一定"},{"start":10287.569,"end":10313.284,"text":"宣傳跟實際做的不一樣我舉金門供水而言反而金門我們現在做的所以供水供的很好啊對我說金門現在反而海水淡化或本身的水利設施慢慢的可以這個讓廈門供來的水是在一定比例以下所以我是認為說可以談但是呢我們必須很清楚這個還是有些前提的"},{"start":10313.424,"end":10341.75,"text":"沒有你現在反正來者不善嘛你什麼東西都不溝通嘛你在不溝通的狀況之下那最後幹什麼就是打仗嘛是不是就是打仗嘛你無法溝通無法在桌面上來談事情那就我們準備武器嘛跟對面對幹就這個意思嘛是不是是不是這個意思其實他讓你金門馬祖太簡單了他把你所有的金元切斷物資切斷"},{"start":10344.045,"end":10370.983,"text":"是不是早上有人問 廈門那邊做了橋他們在兩年以前開始動工了要跟小金門要通橋你知道嗎已經真的在做了他這個橋他為什麼敢做你不通的話他改天把你圍起來他一樣把你金門拿下來一樣通當然我們是政治上評估他大概不至於這樣做了那現在 你講海水淡化"},{"start":10372.657,"end":10398.988,"text":"你喜歡喝海水淡化的水嗎我們目前你看馬祖都是海灘機南竿你看六百噸的有兩座每天有一千噸的水淡水海水海水淡化的水北竿有五百噸的水東營有五百噸的水東西局有差不多兩百噸的水這些水啊"},{"start":10400.011,"end":10415.394,"text":"海水淡化水喝下去你覺得健康嗎你有沒有跟醫生有接觸過你們行政院工程會老是在討論這些事情水裡面原水包含了一些鈣、鎂、鈉、鉀、鐵、鎂、鋁、矽很多東西在裡面我跟醫生聊過海水淡化的水喝了以後會怎麼樣它會軟趴趴的骨頭"},{"start":10428.717,"end":10456.867,"text":"骨骼疏鬆對身體會有影響的我們目前老百姓的壽命還活得蠻長的如果跟中部一樣用廢塞發電那天閻光恆委員跟我講他最近出病出病的場合都是六七十歲的我們這邊都八九十歲他六七十歲你到北京去七十歲也是高壽為什麼"},{"start":10458.695,"end":10480.369,"text":"它只有一個出口嘛所以北京那邊都是霧濛濛、雨濛濛的那個空氣非常糟糕所以主委你有機會對水的問題我希望你到馬祖去也算來考察一下好不好督導經濟部這水的問題我們目前水是夠記者問我水夠不夠我說夠電夠不夠?夠"},{"start":10483.851,"end":10511.493,"text":"但是有狀況,你不能長年喝這個海水氮化的水海水氮化水進來以後要跟原水要混合在一起金門的水有,我們政府有講你水資源不足的時候才同意讓它購水那是管碧玲委員現任的海委會主委,她反對最厲害後來我跟楊正文委員去陪著我陪楊正文委員去跟管碧玲委員溝通"},{"start":10513.41,"end":10514.719,"text":"金門才開放這個水啊"},{"start":10515.629,"end":10543.332,"text":"所以馬祖這個水的問題我們為未來的十年二十年觀光科來了以後要為這個來打算水啊、電啊這些可以考慮主委好不好因為牽涉到其他部會的問題不單純是供工程委員的業務所以我們了解委員的用心你不要一定要政黨輪替你現在對共產黨沒有信心"},{"start":10545.512,"end":10570.108,"text":"沒有人對共產黨有信心他過來跟你下跪了嗎你也不敢跟他聊啊你總是認為黃鼠狼給雞拜年嘛是不是你有這樣的想法很麻煩耶共產黨統治的國家沒有幾個啦所以你看看全世界主要的民主國家對共產黨的提議你也看到老美嘛我要打你哪裡就哪裡嘛我要打你伊朗美國總統講什麼"},{"start":10574.346,"end":10599.999,"text":"我打伊朗是鬧著玩的開玩笑的你懂不懂我想打他就打他大國現在就這麼回事嘛是不是今天美國有力量可以保護台灣我們所以台灣講話很強硬有一天美國沒這個能力來保護台灣的時候台灣講話還那麼大聲嗎我不相信好這個不談我們目前喔馬祖那邊你們有沒有去做施工的查核啊"},{"start":10601.601,"end":10623.358,"text":"我之前有請祖密去過馬祖一趟那是針對一個風災的個案不是光茶河公災 還有我們的公共工程我們最近本來在安排去看它的水資源處理中心因為馬祖是一個污水處理的典範在全國各縣市接管率 馬祖好像是第三名"},{"start":10624.539,"end":10651.188,"text":"接管率是全國第三名海水淡化是處理的很好我說是民生污水的處理接管率是全國第三名所以是非常認真在接管在做這些小型的污水處理廠所以我們是最近有時間會安排污水處理我們那時候我還當縣長的時候我們是全國第二名除了落後台北市台北市高雄市我們是第二名高雄市"},{"start":10652.409,"end":10679.286,"text":"是第二還是馬祖是第二啦大概是全國優先啦馬祖有個地方你們漏掉了軍中啊軍中都在山上齁那個汙水你們要注意到齁你不要只注意到民間啦齁所以軍方的汙水是沒有接管嗎他那個髒的水流下來會影響到我們平原欸是不是好我們找時間去看好現在就是說落實施工查核啦"},{"start":10680.168,"end":10691.23,"text":"我們北竿的中山國中,原定115年6月25日完工到現在工程紀錄多少?2.49你們工程會對這個事情怎麼處理?他們的紀錄只有2.49欸?包委員這個個案是我們來瞭解,預定6月完工目前...沒有很像在工程會,你們現在跟縣政府跟他在你們那邊在調處還有在調處喔?"},{"start":10711.001,"end":10727.667,"text":"還可以聊足嗎如果說是他的在履歷當中施工進度達到一定的比例機關當然可以罰他錢或把他終止但我不知道這個個案的情況這個早就要列入101條了吧"},{"start":10729.568,"end":10743.052,"text":"那是另外一件事情那是兩件事情你們現在在處理喔可能要回去查因為案件很多啦那委員臨時問我不大知道不是案件很多但是落得太嚴重了嘛今年要完工的東西才2.49欸"},{"start":10745.738,"end":10771.021,"text":"現在我們沒處理,你們沒處理,當然人家有一些人怪到縣長頭上去你管六個人也很麻煩耶公審會是負責申訴的部分,到底要不要停權是由機關來決定還有大邱遊客中心,也一樣大邱遊客中心當然啦,現在中央沒有錢給他"},{"start":10772.714,"end":10801.043,"text":"沒有錢給他所以進度落後你們了解一下好不好還有在缺工我們那裡失業率是0.1全國最低的沒有人失業他沒有工作的一些人什麼原因就是年齡老化還有身心障礙除了這些人都有工作做那我們缺工他怎麼辦呢缺工這裡面不只是工程的缺工"},{"start":10802.369,"end":10803.571,"text":"我們旅遊業、旅館、洗床單、備單還有廚師、炒菜、洗碗盤這些怎麼處理?"},{"start":10815.083,"end":10832.673,"text":"因為這是服務業的這個人力需求那勞動部也一直有在注意這件事情那我們會來跟勞動部來反映那另外就缺工的問題就工程工程的問題因為離島所以他的人力缺乏包括"},{"start":10833.914,"end":10863.005,"text":"原料也缺乏所以需要運送所以基本上預算當然是可以比平常在本島的預算那麼可以再增加再多編啦 寬編這一直都有這樣的一個制度後邊我們有的標不出去耶你看一個工程標了18次主委你在台灣有聽說過標18次標不出去了嗎有標多次流標的是有啦是不是有標18次 好像這個標出去了"},{"start":10864.446,"end":10893.094,"text":"聽說這個廠商不只標這個工程,前面標這個工程不知道工程延宕多久已經一直給他工期了他有三個,阿兵哥還一個,還一個案子這個拿他沒辦法嗎?你這樣下去的話怎麼辦?當縣長也好,當指揮官也好,你說碰到這樣的工程這些業者你說怎麼辦?這不是我的問題嘛,不是從政者的問題嘛"},{"start":10894.602,"end":10917.661,"text":"所以這個法律上面 法規上面怎麼處理它受到你們工程會去調處你們要有一個標準的判斷好不好好 如果禮遇爭議的調解那工程會會指定委員來協助還有就是心事中的事情請主委認真一點對水資源的管理等等好不好你不能讓我們一直喝海水丹花茶"},{"start":10919.241,"end":10942.826,"text":"核核海水淡化你起碼未來的十年二十年還是要未雨綢繆你不能光看眼前眼前是沒有缺水沒有缺電問題我們很多的基礎建設完備以後觀光客進來我們要供應這麼多人那時候水跟電就不夠了好不好你要從長計議謝謝主委謝謝主席"},{"start":10951.364,"end":10972.303,"text":"好謝謝陳雪生委員的發言現在有請許智傑委員來咨詢好謝謝主席我們請主委有請陳主委"},{"start":10980.251,"end":10996.707,"text":"委員長主委辛苦剛聽了我們陳委員在講我也是有感而發習近平對李克強的態度對胡錦濤的態度現在張又小又不知道還在不在這種人"},{"start":10998.976,"end":11024.066,"text":"真的是無可相信啦所以這個會台措施其實今天給明天就禁掉啦這個都是對台灣養套殺的一貫的伎倆所以那個主委還是要三思啦這個要怎麼樣跟那邊交流尤其是金門馬祖又臨近嘛那他們都會用很多那個"},{"start":11025.563,"end":11052.671,"text":"利誘然後去壞了我們的立場所以該注意的還是要注意所以主委這部分剛聽到覺得你很辛苦所以特地跟你再慰問一下謝謝好那但是事實上世界的變局真的是很大那包括伊朗的戰爭中東戰火現在石油的問題包括現在很多工程界釐清的問題"},{"start":11054.765,"end":11069.931,"text":"現在我們可以撐到什麼時候?歷經目前供應已經逐步改善是沒有問題的就是供應商就是台灣中油跟台塑化的子宮是中塑"},{"start":11071.906,"end":11086.322,"text":"還有四萬五千萬四點五萬噸的庫存那台塑化呢他也調整這個生產線呢那麼比例生產柏油的比例提高那他供應國外的"},{"start":11087.063,"end":11102.368,"text":"契約呢減少優先供應國內這是左院長那麼在院會明確要求的那麼台說化也目前積極的做到這些那中油除了中油的生產線本來就是在生產柏油但是因為原油啊要從中東來"},{"start":11103.968,"end":11127.435,"text":"那中油呢也在市場上來購買現貨他們積極在趕辦採購所以在這些加起來呢對柏油的供應不會有問題量的供應希望說主委工程會這邊注意啦因為我之前你們大概到了六月沒問題那六月之後還是七月八月還是中通有什麼變化"},{"start":11129.299,"end":11158.439,"text":"這個有時候我們也很難100%控制那我要跟主委反映就是說你比如說像我們高雄有很多的建設都需要到立簽科技園區連外道路高雄機場跑道北移新建國道7號國道1號拓寬高屏幕二塊新建等等就有很多嘛我在思考其實還包括採購法就是說為什麼現在的工程界好像很多人越來越不喜歡做公共工程"},{"start":11159.699,"end":11185.787,"text":"那當公務工程的彈性或者是公務員他避免有圖利的狀況這個都要非常的注意啦所以就是說像這個履約彈性的時間比如說好我國際變化然後我現在供貨比較短缺那現在我有可能因此而延宕到時間或者是增加到成本"},{"start":11187.196,"end":11205.804,"text":"那這個在一開始簽約的時候沒有人會想到國際會有變化這麼大那像這個在履約的爭議的時候他們一定都會說最後本身的工程單位大概都沒有人敢自己做決定那最後都會說那請工程會調解"},{"start":11208.164,"end":11228.141,"text":"像這個部分國際局勢的變化產生這個不管是原料的成本的增加或者是原料的供應的延宕那影響到這個本來契約所訂定的條件那這個部分如果是國際變化我們工程會是不是有一個復案如果遇到這種情況的話我們應該要怎麼處理"},{"start":11231.235,"end":11249.658,"text":"工程會針對這些事有做過公告了就是關於成本的增加工期必須延長那麼都主張那麼這個可以做物調那麼工程延期呢可以雙方合一呢來做這個工期的展延"},{"start":11250.399,"end":11274.632,"text":"那如果說雙方有意見可以到工程會來諮詢那工程會也是採取這樣的態度應該很快可以解決那如果說合約裡面沒有明確規定那也可以做情勢變更的主張那工程會很明確正面的態度就是可以物調那工期可以展延我現在其實有一個比較大向的問題需要工程會統一去思考"},{"start":11275.973,"end":11301.196,"text":"就是說在所有的國家公關工程裡面有一些是不好的廠商有一些是少部分會刁難的公務員那我們相信公務員90%以上都是好的啦但是就是說有少數的小鬼難纏然後包括我以前當風篡市長的時候其實有個經驗可以讓主委參考"},{"start":11302.554,"end":11327.142,"text":"我那時候剛剛有一些採購還不太清楚那我會覺得說設計跟施工跟建造分開可能比較可以防弊但是後來發現有一家廠商他專門低價搶標建造低價搶標建造他就可以去跟施工單位要有的沒有的不順的話就刁難"},{"start":11329.969,"end":11355.557,"text":"像這個部分你好的廠商遇到這種不好的狀況不管是工部門的小鬼或者是其他一般業界的小鬼那遇到這種情況事實上有很多在地方機場都卡住有很多求速無門所以有一些會到我們這裡來但是像這個部分工程會"},{"start":11357.421,"end":11366.035,"text":"大件的 小件的都可以拜託你們處理嗎就是如果理業爭議可以到工程會來申訴調解"},{"start":11366.98,"end":11393.657,"text":"看完報告 如果是申訴 這調解案件因為本身牽涉到六都也有申訴 它有一個類似管轄的分配啦齁那所以調解的部分要看那個管轄到底是屬於六都的申訴還是中央現在其實 現在就是時間啦 時間啦 就是說效率啦有些齁 那有的公司可能卡到公司倒閉啦"},{"start":11395.988,"end":11408.467,"text":"這個部分我們聽起來就是情何以堪那我們如何去把這個速度讓他真的是受到委屈的要能夠加快"},{"start":11409.981,"end":11428.037,"text":"第一個就是說我們工程會的立場是認為你除了不能圖利廠商你也不能刁難嘛這個誰決定到最後還是工程會決定我們是有定叫做採購人員的倫理規則就是說有一些比較有擔當的行政部門"},{"start":11429.378,"end":11458.436,"text":"他如果專業夠 擔當夠 判斷是這個建造刁難他可能就可以處理了但是像這麼有擔當的公務員不好找因為他會怕被人家講到他圖利對 他除非說我非常的有擔當 而且我非常的專業我認為說這個部分其實人家真的沒問題 你是叼人家這個其實我看過少數有這種擔當的公務員也有啦但是畢竟不多啦"},{"start":11459.335,"end":11485.943,"text":"那在這個整個台灣各縣市這種小案子非常的多那這個我們工程會有沒有辦法想一個辦法去把它的速度加快我們這個第一個當然是一開始的那個合約抓的禮業期限要合理坦白講我覺得一開始就不合理啦沒關係我現在是這樣啦對時間的關係我們也不要偷太久原則上就是說這是個問題"},{"start":11487.813,"end":11513.706,"text":"那我請工程會做個思考那這個問題有時候到最後都是一直拖時間拖到最後公司倒閉沒有倒閉也傷了七八分了那有些這種狀況我們有沒有辦法把這個速度加快有一種狀況這個明明是機關可以決定的事情他的權責可以決定的事情"},{"start":11514.753,"end":11539.506,"text":"他還是會把他送到工程會來希望工程會去背書所以案件非常多所以自然人力非常缺乏我們這個申訴調解委員會這個人力非常缺乏所以每個月平均有八十件一個月平均八十件那你去檢視這些有的機關就可以自己做行政決定的 首長就可以決定的還有的首長就不決定所以"},{"start":11540.816,"end":11564.397,"text":"公務員我們都了解啦 公務員很怕被卡到圖裡叫他有擔當說他100%有擔當其實這個就牽涉到我之前也有跟指揮執訊過就是檢察官濫訴造成公務員不敢勇於認識所以他很公正 但是人家還是去捲起"},{"start":11565.797,"end":11591.142,"text":"那檢察官還是去調查 然後還是被起訴的時候他就覺得說 我這年有正義感 這年有擔當 也是受到很多的危困所以我為什麼說這個最有利標我們希望說那個政風阻擊能夠加入多一點那也謝謝工程會 事實上我大概要求五年以上了啦那這五年來從30%到50% 現在應該快50%了吧"},{"start":11596.21,"end":11615.681,"text":"超過50%了嘛 對不對所以這個都是我們工程會的努力的成果啦這個當然要感謝但是我的意思是說我們從整個採購法 事實上我到交通委員會其實除了其他的項目之外 其實採購法也是我要求的一個重要的項目啦"},{"start":11616.882,"end":11633.573,"text":"那比如說我們保護好的廠商不好的廠商我們也要處理啊比如說負責人換殼的問題這個我們本來這次採購法要修都會準備修進來嘛那包括就是政風主計加入審查的機制"},{"start":11634.997,"end":11655.404,"text":"那我聽說就是這個一家到三家三家改成一家這個有爭議這個大家再討論沒關係但是我聽說是說就這個案子所以整個採購法的修改都要再延後那這樣子我其他的部分可以先要求你我們要先處理"},{"start":11657.963,"end":11678.416,"text":"畢竟工程會提案經過行政院審議再送大院來審查所以我們依據大概各界意見在重整之後看年底之前能不能再重新依告年底之前你說一家跟三家這個會有定案我的意思是說現在一家跟三家有爭議嗎"},{"start":11679.758,"end":11703.092,"text":"那其他的我相信大部分都沒有爭議還有些人有提出蠻多見解的所以我們必須重新再看過一次還有其他的條文也有意見我是這樣具體建議啦就是說有爭議的該暫緩的我們就暫緩嘛那如果可以先行的我們就先行好我們盡速啦是不是主委可以用這個角度去思考"},{"start":11704.249,"end":11726.332,"text":"我們改很多條的啦 我也有提一個版本 我也改很多條的啦這個真的是對台灣採購的環境 要讓公務員有擔當 有政方主席照顧要讓好的情商不要受到這麼大的圍困 我們要比較快速去解決他的問題"},{"start":11727.455,"end":11748.941,"text":"要不然給不好的村鄉你自己要挖坑我也不可以給你外面挖坑像這一些東西都是採購法一併思考的問題對於國家的公共工程才會有具體的幫助所以我是建議就是說速度還是要快那如果可以分開的話也可以考慮分開該可以做的就先做這樣好不好好 我們盡數來預告好 謝謝"},{"start":11757.365,"end":11779.591,"text":"謝謝許智傑委員的發言接著有請我們鍾嘉斌委員來質詢好 主席 在場委員 先進列車政局 讓首長 官員 會長 工作夥伴媒體 記者 女士先生有請我們陳主委有請陳主委"},{"start":11787.813,"end":11802.751,"text":"主委辛苦啦今天的題目都很接近進口營建原料漲幅超過物價指數那公共工程的物條跟工期怎麼協調來我們看一下來主委進口物價的漲幅高於CPI如果3月份來講以美元計價我們的物價呢"},{"start":11803.992,"end":11825.789,"text":"年增8.53%新台幣也有到4.83%但是我們的3月的CPI只有1.2那表示什麼呢CPI它會跟著進口物價進口替代型會造成的影響會延後可能國內的生產成本已經增加到兩三成了但是國內的整個CPI物價指數會落後一兩季"},{"start":11826.249,"end":11846.889,"text":"那才會造成問題才會浮現可是呢實況上以餐宴來講現在喜宴新人啊包材上漲兩成啊這個餐宴也要多了兩三成好那我們工程會怎麼規定我們工程會來下一頁工程採購契約範本的物條方式就是什麼營建工程物價總指數不是CPI啦但是呢是要2.5%"},{"start":11848.51,"end":11859.654,"text":"是如果沒有規定就是2.5%啦那估驗完成後呢再來調整工程而且換機當業人實施的數量那我請教一下目前有沒有已經超過2.5%了主委現在現在的物價往下一頁看"},{"start":11866.915,"end":11886.32,"text":"來我舉例 你再看一下塑膠建材的實際漲幅遠高於紫素我們最近因為塑膠原料的價格持續上漲塑膠水管PVC大概呢 原料端都漲幅到兩成到三成那我們如果看營造工程的物價指數的年增率到了3月也從1.79 2.26到達2.7已經到達2.5%的範圍所以是不是根據工程採購契約的範本的物調方式廠商這樣調只能調2.5嗎"},{"start":11897.154,"end":11920.719,"text":"我跟委員報告整個工程會的企業範本針對物條有很詳盡的規定那尤其是再建工程在再建工程當中現在遇到一些戰事或其他的狀況有調整那麼我們同意就可以物條那物條在企業範本裡面有詳盡的規定那要看個案啦"},{"start":11920.879,"end":11929.473,"text":"看個案就對了所以就是說看每個公公可能發包採購都是怎麼約定沒有約定就是2.5%好 那其實我們來看其實工程牌是做了一件事情往下看"},{"start":11931.209,"end":11950.897,"text":"其實呢大概主委很清楚了那天是美麗的星期天3月22號我特別打電話給你求助就是說我接到陳情就是說力卿剛剛很多人也在問力卿那因為中東情勢一定要力卿供料的波動但是呢結果您說有什麼您剛剛的回答跟當天回答很像就是說如果個案的情況我們工程會再來協助"},{"start":11951.437,"end":11967.251,"text":"但是除了個案之外呢工程會也在4月2號也發布了一個指引就是因應逆行工要的波動工程會呢發布了履約指引啟動了跨部會協調全力穩定公共工程的推進那請問這個指引的主要精神是什麼"},{"start":11969.508,"end":11982.453,"text":"我剛剛提過了就是務條跟工期啦就是這個指引當中讓各個公共城的發報單位可以據這樣的指引跟他的合約商來調整他的務條就算是原來的契約當中請他們趕快"},{"start":11989.126,"end":12008.503,"text":"啟動企業的機制或者企業的機制比較不夠完備的也可以設法去幫廠商減少他們遇到的困難是這個意思嗎沒有錯好那現在剛剛講到了這個裡面有包括了物條跟工期那如果廠商因為缺料無法如期完工這個工期的指引現在很多我們都接到啊那"},{"start":12009.184,"end":12034.13,"text":"主委都很貼心說有個案你來問我們 我們幫你解決可是你都發布了一個指引了嘛這個指引當中好像對於這些對工企的擔憂這些廠商因為剛剛講到塑膠我們剛剛前面講到的所謂的營造工程的物價總指數那是總的但是因為工工有不同的品項如果是道路工程可能利薪這樣的比重很高這時候怎麼辦"},{"start":12035.87,"end":12059.396,"text":"來龍副主委那個我先報告事實上我們的物條它是有分三級啦它是個別項目還有種植樹還有種植樹嘛那它有一個適用的一個這個順序最不得也是採用到種植樹它如果是個別項目本身已經達到跟就可以了就可以了謝謝謝謝並不是說一定只能用種植樹好那恭喜的部分呢"},{"start":12060.014,"end":12082.601,"text":"供期的部分當然因為理論上機關他會比較保守是因為他會覺得希望廠商能夠提出比較直接的證明因為譬如說今天發生戰爭或者發生什麼疫情那是不是一定會影響到這個供期有時候他涉及個案的認定那這一塊當然我們是希望機關可以站在比較同理的立場但是因為他個案計算有時候很難說給他一個標準"},{"start":12084.702,"end":12109.998,"text":"那只能說原則上如果說他以當時現在的狀況那具有相當的關聯性應該就是可以扣啦好來那最後呢主委最後呢兩個結論往下看就是說剛剛你們發布了濾清那是不是可以比照濾清這次中東站影響了塑膠原料漲幅達7月標準的物價的調整的一個指引您之前發布的是濾清嘛"},{"start":12110.638,"end":12123.78,"text":"那有沒有考慮評估一下這是塑膠的部分第二個也研議一下就是剛剛講到的副主席提到的如果因為物量短缺造成延宕的履約指引這個有沒有可能更明確一點"},{"start":12127.329,"end":12150.501,"text":"事實上整個工程會的合約換本裡面的物條不限於哪一個項目你們針對濾芯發布了啊濾芯是因為比較立即嘛 那塑膠呢那個我們當時的處理裡面就包括這個塑膠硬管等等的塑膠硬管也包含在內了 包含在裡面不是只有濾芯 當然當然"},{"start":12151.502,"end":12166.888,"text":"那恭喜的部分有沒有可能有更明確的去研議一下好那這部分可能要整體來到時候我們可能看看因為當時針對疫情有特別的處理啦那針對這一次的可能我們要再整體研究看看好那主委那就拜託了"},{"start":12167.888,"end":12191.347,"text":"好 那因為工期根據合約嘛 是那如果說對工期有爭議那可以到工程會來請求諮詢啦那諮詢的時候我們基本上態度是因為這次是中東戰爭的原因那麼所以比較同意那麼可以合理的調整工期很好 感謝我們主委這樣的一個開明的公佈 謝謝"},{"start":12197.868,"end":12219.638,"text":"好 謝謝仲嘉斌委員的發言 接著有請我們洪玉祥委員來質詢好 謝謝主席 有請這個工程會主委有請陳主委好 主委很早"},{"start":12221.761,"end":12245.932,"text":"我想今天大概兩個問題而已在前一陣子來講我們國防採購的大漏洞對不對室內裝修商福邁國際的話可以去標炸藥原料大石國際協商可以去做步槍的底火更扯的是我們的茶行可以去標這些資安海軍的伺服器等等所以呢在我們過去的這段時間發生的時候我們就覺得"},{"start":12249.414,"end":12275.447,"text":"台灣的奇蹟很厲害從小本生意做到國安軍火那除了這個之外如果再把過去的歷史高端環球小吃店可以去標16.5億的快篩超市公司50萬資本一人公司可以去做超過這麼多資本額的一個案子那我們的捷運就覺得說很厲害這些茶要配炸藥小吃配快篩"},{"start":12277.456,"end":12285.707,"text":"這是另類的台灣奇蹟比我們護國神山還要厲害我想要問主委是發生這些事情"},{"start":12286.547,"end":12313.653,"text":"那工程會有沒有什麼樣的做法作為請教主委跟委員說明這個政務採購法裡面這個採購單位他本來就可以增訂他採購的項目設定禮約禮約的能力跟他的資格那麼或者是相關的法規都有那採購單位他可以根據這個可以訂定所以你覺得這樣子是合理的嗎"},{"start":12314.485,"end":12340.523,"text":"不是合理的坦白講會不會怪怪的委員講的也言過其實啦所以你剛才講說工程會打造台灣奇蹟那算了那回到這個你不覺得看這個怪怪的嗎這就因為每個採購有他的這個訂定的這個採購的合約啦他的這個要採購的東西而且你舉的個案我的建議是這樣子啦你舉的個案就是貿易"},{"start":12341.684,"end":12363.159,"text":"他有的是他是貿易並不是廠商今天如果說我如果一個做茶葉的廠商我要去投生產生產火藥那個當然這個是資格不符如果說他這個公司他的營業項目這個牽涉到這個就是我現在的要求就是說因為我自己也做過很多的政府採購案"},{"start":12364.62,"end":12382.761,"text":"基本上來講我是覺得公家部門在這個地方可能工程會可以去要求就是說它不見得是刑事審查商業登記那個我花了一百塊就有了我勾一個資訊服務項目我就可以去標這樣子來講是代表是說我們的機關單位要去做到實質的審查"},{"start":12384.352,"end":12400.897,"text":"像這個像這個茶葉行去做這個資安的話也是啊他就是原本沒有得標的公司他是被停權的嘛所以我再找一個友好廠商去標標完之後再轉包給他所以我派出去的員工也不是我這一個得標廠商的員工"},{"start":12402.185,"end":12424.484,"text":"所以我是要求的是說這些都過去沒有問題我們要解決問題嘛所以我是覺得要能夠要求或者是工程會去抽檢就是實質的廠商的資格的審查去包含他的專案時機嘛那第二個剛剛很多委員都問過的就是我們現在很多被停權的公司幾十多年子公司啊"},{"start":12425.703,"end":12441.157,"text":"負責人透過友好廠商去標的然後他可能也用他自己的這些以前的禮監事再去登記一些不同的公司等等這些東西在你們現在工程會的這些不管是優質廠商 黑名單廠商有沒有這樣子的機會"},{"start":12443.178,"end":12468.828,"text":"我們當然可以集合啦包括這個廠商的履歷都會提供有個資料庫給這個集合準不準相關的這個採購機關甚至我們採購法的修正本來要防度這種停權了又換個公司或子公司這沒關係我希望是可以給我一個報告因為我覺得這個東西很重要因為二十幾年來都是這種問題好不好再來"},{"start":12470.268,"end":12494.114,"text":"接下來第二個問題這個是因為我從資通訊產業來這個我們資訊服務政府很多資訊服務系統的採購我們資服務業20幾年來包含軟體工會TCA台北市電腦工會電電工會各城市的這些的電腦工會等等其實IT資訊採購跟我們一般造橋部是完全不一樣的同意吧 主委"},{"start":12495.988,"end":12519.107,"text":"這個當然是不一樣的所以這裡頭我列了這幾個問題我相信各個工程會的主委應該都很清楚第一個這個規格很難定然後我治安在合規一開始就要下去而不是等到最後再來去做治安的合規檢測因為你前面資格難定就是實施的機關單位他又沒辦法去控制這個規格的變化"},{"start":12520.848,"end":12543.474,"text":"所以需求一直變更然後廠商就覺得說你又變更規格我做下去我又沒有利潤所以慢慢的就是形成劣幣就驅逐良幣就一路一路做下去然後這個技術迭代又很快所以那時候我們就覺得說很棒啊這也是你們工程會前副主委葉澤良對不對那時候找了速發部去訂了資訊服務系統採購指引後面113年還訂了雲服務的採購的範本"},{"start":12550.199,"end":12571.983,"text":"可是這些都是指引範本我們業界覺得不錯了有進步炒了20幾年但是我們希望是錄法可是我們就很期待你的這個修改修法但是沒有看到這一塊所以我們就覺得說你們的採購法修法是不是可以列入這一塊好好去思考可以嗎"},{"start":12573.949,"end":12602.608,"text":"跟委員報告坦白講有關資訊的採購確實陳如文所講的他具有相當的專業性啦所以因為上面我們這一塊當然都是跟速發部還有跟速發部推給你知道嗎所以我們後來就是把它化為一個行政命令還有採購範本嘛但是因為以我們我們現在對他的理解因為他並沒有牽涉到整個採購法說哪一個條要去修改他基本上還是整個現有採購法的"},{"start":12604.23,"end":12630.792,"text":"我們是希望等一下我修改也可以我是可以幫你列一列專章如果委員有比較具體的到底是針對哪一條我們也很歡迎說可以提供給我們因為我們確實不是這方面的專家好 那我是覺得會後我們可以找個時間好好討論因為我也找了葉澤良我也找了當時我們寫這些因為當時我們資訊業界公會都有參與我是覺得這個東西指引沒有人要看"},{"start":12631.734,"end":12634.028,"text":"指引我假設我是一個執行單位不遵守會怎樣"},{"start":12635.953,"end":12664.995,"text":"這個就是我們採購法裡面這次要修的剛性契約的修訂所以說拜託台灣是我們政府是AI行動內閣這一點要記住所以我的要求就是資訊服務採購的作業指引可以是入法的我們這個會後是可以討論的幫我們的產業做一點因為台灣是數位通訊對不對數位資通訊的王國可是我們的軟體應用服務系統是很糟糕的政府的採購也很糟糕所以我們希望能夠把這一段補強"},{"start":12665.936,"end":12688.262,"text":"好不好這可以嗎好謝謝謝謝洪玉祥委員的發言我們接著有請林楚瑩委員發言林楚瑩委員林楚瑩委員不在接著請楊瓊瑩委員發言楊瓊瑩委員楊瓊瑩委員不在接著請游浩委員發言"},{"start":12702.157,"end":12703.604,"text":"謝謝趙偉 那有請陳主委有請陳主委"},{"start":12711.838,"end":12731.67,"text":"委員長還是再次感謝工程會對南投許多災修的協助在這裡還是再次表達感謝在剛才的話今天的許多的議題通通環繞著不管是釐清還有包括許多原物料的目前制度性風險的問題"},{"start":12733.251,"end":12755.274,"text":"那其實目前來講公共工程那也是一個國家重大的一個建設發展的火車頭那同樣的在目前來講擔心的不管是缺錢缺人缺料那我相信在目前全球化的風險以及包括這次的美伊戰爭中東的這個衝突之下那其實大家需要做一些提前的預警跟預防"},{"start":12756.115,"end":12783.07,"text":"那在這裡的話除了我們在這個料的部分之前那我想要請教一下主委目前賴清德總統他有提到這個要引進這個印度的勞工來台灣從事這個相關的工作那在年底的話就要開放1000位那我想問一下對於目前這個引進印度外勞的這個部分公共城委員會是持什麼樣的立場跟態度"},{"start":12783.669,"end":12803.691,"text":"我這個尊重勞動部的政策我們因為不是我們主管業務所以工程會沒有特別意見就看整個中二政策或是勞動部他的政策那目前整體在國家中大建設工程或是這些公共工程的缺工狀況是沒有缺工還是都是順利的"},{"start":12804.292,"end":12814.722,"text":"如果說有個案缺工狀況尤其是公務工程的部分公務工程委內會協助業者跟這個勞動部啊來專案來專案來這個就是讓移工進來這是我們有潛力可循"},{"start":12823.09,"end":12850.541,"text":"我們的角色就是在公共工程如果說個案有缺工那我們會去跟勞動部來協調好 那今天來講勞動部當然是打算引進這印度的移工進來但是因為這個在台灣來講過去這樣子的一個不管是文化或者是宗教信仰或是包括他們生活習慣習性的部分都跟目前我們台灣的許多的一些生活型態是有蠻大的一個不同"},{"start":12851.121,"end":12866.906,"text":"那我想問一下那目前在以公共工程的缺工狀況那這樣子的引進對於我們台灣的這種公共工程的就是勞動力的補充來講是真的有幫助嗎還是說反而實際上的效果不大"},{"start":12867.765,"end":12886.307,"text":"包委真的是引進來國的移工不是工程會的業務啦所以這個要尊重勞動部他的政策那主委回的保守啊因為缺工問題是事實但是沒有關係因為這個部分當然你才是尊重勞動部他們的立場跟業務啊那我能夠理解"},{"start":12886.707,"end":12913.782,"text":"但是本席還是在這裡表達目前來講缺工問題確實嚴重但是引進的這個移工還是不是跟本勞之間的相對的這個競合關係我覺得還是要去思考那如何能夠刺激誘因讓本勞還能夠投入在公共工程的一個勞動力短缺的部分的一個填補上那有時候如果是直接去開放的這個印度的外勞還移工來這邊台灣來進行"},{"start":12915.603,"end":12942.753,"text":"那是不是實際上對公共工程的缺工有幫助還是到最後反而衍生出是更多的社會問題我覺得其實工程會主委可能也要跟勞動部這邊來表達還其實真的需求跟意見那不能夠直接賴總統或許是美意可是實際上如果到社會的環境跟整體的一個勞動力的市場來講造成更大的衝擊我覺得可能是不是這個移工來的狀況需要再做討論跟檢討"},{"start":12945.578,"end":12971.693,"text":"那同樣的那缺料的部分那在目前的這個美伊衝突在中東的石油危機卓偉你認為會越演越烈嗎這個也是國安的判斷可能要請教外交部會比較清楚不行啦卓偉你自己判斷他應該會認為也是越演越烈你有在看政經新聞這方面我們的確是外行卓偉你太客氣了你以前在宜蘭縣都對地方那麼了解"},{"start":12973.734,"end":12998.689,"text":"那其實那個直接可以預判就是越演越烈啦那在談判破裂之下的話其實這個石油啊包括相關天然氣等等的還有各種的原料其實都是會更加的緊繃啦所以說這個是可以預期啦那我本席還是要在這裡表達因為目前來講的話不管是在濾清那濾清的部分短缺的部分剛才有提到這個目前的存量是都夠了嘛"},{"start":12999.679,"end":13024.581,"text":"荔青還有一些庫存庫存大概可以用多久我知道中碩那邊有四萬五千噸的庫存然後他們台碩化也在加緊生產那中油除了生產之外他也在採購現貨來補足這個需求那總之這個是沒有辦法因為做柏油原料大部分是來自於中東"},{"start":13025.922,"end":13048.053,"text":"就算要在中東採購柏油 那也有一些困難那個船隻也有一些困難 目前只是說我們因為台灣的確是資源匱乏 台灣的確什麼都沒有所以這方面是政府包括卓院長他也這個包括副院長也都開專案會議然後希望這些有能力的廠商以供應國內優先"},{"start":13049.614,"end":13077.883,"text":"那那個剛才所提到的這個濾清的他目前的這個目前的存量那的這個統計是數據是大概是什麼時候來確認的跟這些我大概是上個禮拜上個禮拜那大約目前在現行的這種這個搬挖工程的施作上大約幾個月的量還算充足根據經濟部的最初的說法是說到6月啦不過我想如果中縮化調整他的生產"},{"start":13078.843,"end":13103.844,"text":"程序之後那麼應該持續供應是沒有問題的所以現在來講是濾清供應不中斷嗎?濾清的供應是不中斷的?不會 不會有 這不是博弈喔這個公司供應給業者的博弈是不會中斷的而且他也就發出發出信函給工會的那在這個部分的話有沒有跟工會或者相關的業者有統計是不是有囤積的狀況?"},{"start":13107.706,"end":13117.034,"text":"如果是柏油的話就兩家而已而且是公開的資訊這庫存是供應那至於力清工會的部分"},{"start":13118.12,"end":13138.815,"text":"我們是不是有我請副主委來回答跟委員報告齁那個我們工程會這邊管的大概是力清混泥土我們不直接去管力清油那力清混泥土的部分當然是有力清工會這邊有來喊那可是同時我們也都有詢問北中南東各個力清的這些公司去調查這個行情"},{"start":13139.736,"end":13153.694,"text":"那這個行情大概過去我們調查的時候大概是三月底四月初這個階段不過那個時候大概也從源頭這邊主委跟在行政院這些經濟部或是院長這邊大家副院長其實大家都一直在掌握這個狀況那所以現在"},{"start":13157.398,"end":13179.614,"text":"接下來大概確定說是供給會大於需求啦其實依照歷史經驗來講生產量供給量其實都會大於這個階段的需求量那價格上漲那是一時可能有一些市場的反應恐慌的反應的行情接下來其實公平會也會持續去關心這個價格那因為時間有限那我大致上就補充一下"},{"start":13180.214,"end":13199.386,"text":"所以說目前來講的話其實原油主要這個能夠用這些濾情的這種重油還是在中東啦那像美國俄羅斯的部分尤其是美國部分是沒有辦法去用在這一種的項目上那其實目前看得下國際震驚情勢在中東的戰爭會越演越烈那所以說在經濟部他們是不是了解到這個原料"},{"start":13200.266,"end":13225.844,"text":"石油是不是能夠真的來台灣的這個部分不能過於樂觀啦不能過於樂觀那同時現在來講是還在一個我們這邊沒戰事的一個狀況那是一般的基本需求還有原料上面的這種基礎建設那坦白講我們要肯定鄭麗文主席的和平之旅那能夠讓兩岸來講目前不交戰火的這種機率下降那不然假如這個整個"},{"start":13227.125,"end":13241.066,"text":"中東的一個戰爭火藥庫到時候燒到亞太地區的話那其實各種的戰備假如需要的這種存量的這種基礎建設的原物料那都是沒有大家在顧忌的"},{"start":13242.768,"end":13263.997,"text":"所以說這個部分其實都應該要並如考量我們看到中東的戰事會需要這些原物料那在台灣假如未來亞太地區也發生類似的狀況的時候到底是不是有足夠的原物料來供給那至於中東的石油目前來講也不能夠過於樂觀那所以說原物料的相關的掌控還是有賴工程會這邊持續的跟進謝謝"},{"start":13273.864,"end":13300.705,"text":"好 謝謝油花委員的發言登記域諮詢委員均已發言完畢 作以下決定第一 報告及詢答完畢委員許新穎 林儲英所提書面諮詢列入記錄並刊登公報委員於諮詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答覆部分請公共工程委員會盡速以書面答覆本日會議結束 散會"},{"start":13305.22,"end":13305.444,"text":"谢谢观看"}]}},{"id":"17345","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17345","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/7a505bc1fba11f2d8268fc46ae4529b10d211a323d406f2a847b9569dcea103dead33ca8efb239cc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2026-04-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期外交及國防委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥、國防部副部長徐斯儉、內政部、海洋委員會報告「針對近期中國籍小型船隻非法侵入我國領海之偵搜漏洞檢討、科技監偵設備建置進度與精進作為」，併請大陸委員會、交通部列席，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2026-04-13","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2026-04-13T08:34:59+08:00","end_time":"2026-04-13T13:42:00+08:00","duration":18421,"影片長度":"05:07:01","委員發言時間":"08:34:59 - 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邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥 國防部副部長徐思簡內政部海洋委員會報告 針對近期中國級小型船隻非法侵入我國領海之爭收漏洞檢討科技兼徵設備建置進度與精進作為 並請大陸委員會交通部列席並備質詢 宣讀完畢"},{"start":1713.717,"end":1736.202,"text":"我們現在介紹在場委員以及與會的官員首先介紹陳永康陳委員黃建斌黃委員以及今天列席官員名單國家安全局蔡明彥蔡局長國防部徐思簡徐副部長陸軍副參謀總長李天龍李副參謀總長"},{"start":1744.955,"end":1751.936,"text":"戰略規劃司黃文綺黃司長情報參謀次長是謝日昇謝次長作戰及計畫參謀次長是需求處鄭永熙鄭處長電子資訊參謀次長是電站處徐存成徐處長陸軍司令部陳建義參謀長"},{"start":1775.083,"end":1786.312,"text":"海軍司令部朱惠民參謀長空軍司令部李慶然參謀長內政部警政署李文章副署長移民署謝文忠副署長海洋委員會副主任委員兼海軍署張忠龍張署長"},{"start":1805.165,"end":1808.306,"text":"海域安全處陳昭陽陳處長海巡署巡防組洪柏昇洪組長海巡署情報組蘇權成蘇組長海巡署通電資訊組林昇和林組長"},{"start":1832.162,"end":1839.405,"text":"海巡署特別行動中心主任林天佑林主任大陸委員會梁文傑梁副主委交通部船港局葉協榮葉局長航政司韓振華韓司長"},{"start":1878.723,"end":1890.792,"text":"本次會議邀請國家安全局、國防部、內政部、海洋委員會報告針對近期中國籍小型船隻非法侵入我國領海之徵搜漏洞檢討、科技監偵設備監制進度"},{"start":1894.855,"end":1898.099,"text":"與精進作為並備質詢我們今天有邀請國安局國防部內政部以及海洋委員會那目前內政部相關的主管還沒有到達現場所以我們等他到的時候我們再繼續開會我們現在先休息"},{"start":4397.728,"end":4423.527,"text":"我們繼續開會內政部長有請次長過來我們等一下希望大家尊重立法院然後也尊重我們所有出席的這些部會還有相關單位的大家互相尊重因為大家的時間都是時間讓我們整屋子的人等一個人非常離譜那我們現在首先請國安局蔡局長上台報告"},{"start":4435.72,"end":4455.203,"text":"主席、各位先進、各位女士、各位先生大家好感謝大院安排本局進行近期中國籍小型船隻非法入侵我國領海相關問題的專題報告本局僅以眾理國家安全情報工作立場提出說明跟意見如次主要包括有五大部分,主要跟大家來做說明"},{"start":4455.703,"end":4470.506,"text":"第一部分是有關於小型船隻侵擾的樣態那我們在這邊規整大概有三個主要的樣態那第一個樣態就是侵擾本島跟外島的方式不太一樣那我們縱觀對我外離島侵擾的一個查獲的案例大部分都是無動力的三板船閥"},{"start":4471.167,"end":4500.255,"text":"那但是在對我們本島地區的侵擾主要就是以小型船艇搭配懸崖機為主要的一個操作的方式那第二部分我們也注意到有些中級人士偷渡來台那他的時間點也剛好配合到中國對我國來發動相關的戰備的演訓那我們不排除這是中共刻意在台海遂行海上揮帶侵擾的一環那第三部分是在這些所謂的小型船隻的偷渡活動的同時也注意到"},{"start":4500.675,"end":4521.233,"text":"有些案例中共它有系統性的去運用相關的自媒體傳散證訊跟短影音那目的就在渲染我們海防監控失靈的一個狀況那第二部分跟大家說明跟報告的是有關於非法侵入的特點分析那我們大概重列了有五個特點我足以跟大家做個提報那第一部分是這些小型的船體比較容易取得"},{"start":4521.613,"end":4549.6,"text":"那中級的人士只要透過網路的電商平台就可以購得這些小型的船艇搭配到巡外機來進行偷渡的活動那第二部分是我們有盤點這些偷渡者的背景那主要都來自於像是廣西、廣東、福建、浙江、江蘇等等的中國大陸沿海的省份那在清巡的過程當中也都一貫的會去強調他們嚮往民主自由還有尋求政治庇護的這些說辭引以他們真實的犯罪動機那第三部分是"},{"start":4550.6,"end":4580.18,"text":"主要的侵擾是以我們的外離島特別是金門、馬祖為主那本島地區主要都集中在苗栗、淡水、林口、桃園等等的海域岸際那不排除中共是藉由這些侵擾來測試我們海防應處的能量那在後發的時間部分那我們重整相關的案例發現春季跟夏季是主要的中共侵擾的一個高峰期那因為這個季節我們周邊海上相對穩定那統計相關的侵擾事件可以發現大部分都發生在"},{"start":4580.62,"end":4604.473,"text":"每年的四月到八月之間那九月之後因為受到東北季風的影響案件就非常明顯的減少那另外一個特點就是這些小型的船體因為面積體積比較小對於水深的要求比較低所以他只要利用相關的礁岩區或防波堤的邊緣配合到漲潮就可以進行到灘頭的一個靠岸那第三部分跟大家說明的是目前海岸巡防主要遭遇到的一些"},{"start":4605.814,"end":4620.939,"text":"致愛了那我們也是列出有三點第一個部分就是台灣的本外島海岸線比較長所以河口灘灣比較多那也比較容易形成我們查查的盲區那這部分可能有待我們相關的海防單位持續來建置科技化跟系統化的監偵的設備"},{"start":4622.299,"end":4646.642,"text":"那第二部分的一個問題是在於我們所提到的這些小型的橡皮艇那它的材質比較特殊那可能在雷達的電磁波反射上面的訊號比較微弱不好偵獲所以這部分也涉及到我們後續怎麼來強化海上跟岸基目標的一個偵控的一個措施那第三部分是第一線的海防的人力是需要龐大的人力所以這部分可能由來我們第一線的海防單位"},{"start":4647.222,"end":4664.177,"text":"包括海巡警察跟國軍能夠建立起比較高效聯防通報的一個機制才能夠及時來掌握相關的海防的狀況那第四部分是有關於情報收援的重點那因為本局是國家情報機關所以我們大概列出了四個重點跟大家做說明"},{"start":4664.597,"end":4691.01,"text":"那第一部分是加強聯合情搜及時的應處那本局會透過專案的平台強化海域情搜研以及應處的能量那透由我們聯防的機制來進行必要的通報提供我們全責機關來進行相關的偵處以及追查犯罪的動機還有背後的網絡那第二部分我們會深化跟國際友盟的協作那我們國安情報機關會持續的來精進對於周邊海域情資的整合比對可疑威脅的目標"},{"start":4691.97,"end":4717.527,"text":"來強化增資、識別、應儲的一個效能並且跟我們的國際友盟來加強情誌的交流拓展對於中共海上灰帶侵擾的情收的一個深度跟廣度那第三我們會接觸到科技來消除相關的增防的盲區那本區會持續的跟國際友方來交流海域安全應儲的經驗那延續怎麼樣來運用科技的裝備加強目標的識別相關的策略跟做法"},{"start":4717.927,"end":4733.333,"text":"那另外也會依照國家情報工作法來指導統合協調國內相關的單位強化我們國家的案際監控的效能那第四點是我們會來溯源揭露相關的爭議訊息的操作那本局會持續的統合國安情報團隊"},{"start":4734.594,"end":4754.353,"text":"來註收中共跟他的協力網絡那怎麼樣來運用官宣或是自媒體傳散透露來台各種的微廠證訊那並且透過溯源查查揭露中共運用認知作戰操作對我複合式威脅的各種的手法那最後一部分是捷運那近年來中共利用小型的船艇頻繁的來侵擾我國的海域安全那已經"},{"start":4755.073,"end":4777.449,"text":"嚴重的影響到我們的國家安全那本局會持續的透過各種的專案機制密鑄各項危安預警的情資那並且來引進外國海防警備的經驗協助強化我國海域安全監控的能力防範境外敵對勢力滲透破壞卻為我國的海域安全跟社會安定那以上報告敬請各位委員先進持續給我們指導跟支持謝謝"},{"start":4785.44,"end":4807.111,"text":"接著請國防部徐副部長上台報告主席 各位委員先進 各位女士先生 大家好國防部整合國軍各勤監偵單位對重要目標進行偵查 辨識 勤傳 處理與分發作業"},{"start":4811.894,"end":4830.321,"text":"有效监控台湾周边各项活动提供国军各级部队预警及后续决策处置之依据今日报告将分成政策指导国军联合监侦作业国军应处作为及结语四个部分以下依序报告"},{"start":4831.363,"end":4847.984,"text":"二政策指導國軍以防衛國家安全為主要任務與海巡共同維護主權為原則一海巡需求及海上任務綜合支援協定書實施支援三國軍聯合監偵作業"},{"start":4850.93,"end":4876.269,"text":"國軍利用雷達、電子偵搜及開源情字等多元手段針對共艦、外艦、可移商船、岸船、大型民用船舶、公務船舶、滾裝貨輪及機魚船實施偵查、辨識及侵船作業透由海巡署及我國國級漁船通報機制共同執行海上目標查證"},{"start":4879.8,"end":4886.503,"text":"四國軍應處作為一海上任務支援協定書國軍戰備規定突發狀況處置規定及聯合勤監偵作業規定相關應處作為如下一"},{"start":4892.679,"end":4910.616,"text":"情資支援並用現行監偵手段持續掌握中共艦船動態並依現有機制通報海巡署應處另透過連程及雷情顯示資訊系統執行海上艦船情資動態分享"},{"start":4913.396,"end":4939.919,"text":"必利共同掌握海上动态二勤务支援并海军主要任务为海上作战海巡署负责海域执法支援则中共非军事舰船以海巡署应处为主当海巡署执行海上交通维持海难救助渔业巡护需向海军提出支援时一令前往支援二"},{"start":4941.155,"end":4958.214,"text":"国军凭战时作为一平时针对单一小型船只透过海巡署暗计雷达系统掌握其位置与活动情形由海巡署执行应酬而战时针对指向台湾各类舰艇"},{"start":4959.295,"end":4977.267,"text":"运用雷达电子侦搜及开源情资等管道结合海巡署暗计雷达系统与未来将建置各类监侦型无人机配合其他兵力建置重层警戒幕掌握船团动态事切应处"},{"start":4978.211,"end":4998.943,"text":"三国军针对小型目标掌握不易难以及时辨别未来将整合多元监侦手段结合AI技术分析建立预警与复判机制从被动监控转向主动预警及及早识别异常活动提升应变的效率"},{"start":4999.964,"end":5027.405,"text":"令透过共同图像协同海巡署先期完成态势掌握与抑制部署提前因应潜在威胁提升嚇阻效果四有关未来各类监侦型无人机与AI决策辅助系统均在强化防卫任性及不对称战力特别预算中规划筹构必利后续整体监侦能量提升也希望大院能及早竞速审议"},{"start":5028.786,"end":5055.441,"text":"五節與國軍秉持不升高衝突不挑起爭端原則持續與海巡署密切合作掌握中共灰色地帶襲擾樣態應對中共的威脅堅定捍衛國家主權及守護海域安全以上報告敬請各位先進指導 謝謝接下來請內政部董次長上台報告"},{"start":5065.39,"end":5087.609,"text":"主席各位委員各位先進大家好本部奉邀列席貴委員會質詢針對近期中國籍小型船隻非法入侵我國領海之徵收漏洞檢討科技監測設備限制進度與精進作為提出專案報告並備詢敬請各位委員與會議指導首先就現行執行作為"},{"start":5088.57,"end":5106.227,"text":"本部警政署及移民署定期參與行政院查緝走私偷渡聯繫匯報透過跨機關的勤職整合以及及時的聯繫機制那麼精進勤務的部署與執行策略必力協助海洋委員會與海巡署防堵偷渡等不法活動確保國際安全與社會治安"},{"start":5107.268,"end":5126.087,"text":"本部在查獲大陸地區人民偷渡案件時,系透過民眾檢舉或員警執行勤勞、民檢等勤務,於查證當事人身份時,使發現偷渡來台,原依違反《入出國及移民法》等第74條未進入許可入境來偵辦。"},{"start":5127.768,"end":5152.308,"text":"本部警政署持續督導各警察機關針對易發生偷渡的熱點以及治安顧慮場所積極規劃並落實加強查勤勤務例如在各港警總隊加強管制站人車的管制勤務並且針對港區偵查盲點可能偷渡的熱點加強巡防勤務並結合轄區的海巡機關實施聯合巡查勤務強化國境安全"},{"start":5153.129,"end":5168.505,"text":"各直轄縣市政府警察局也針對治安顧慮場所規劃勤務查緝等不法措施那麼我們的相關的特定作為包括說溯源提供海巡署的繼續查我們有要求我們的移民署及警政署"},{"start":5168.985,"end":5193.553,"text":"在查獲大陸地區人民偷渡來台時那麼確實掌握幕後不法動機了解其真實身份背景入境意圖以國內是否有聯絡人接應者兩岸人蛇集團背後操控偷渡方式偷渡地點聯繫方式偷渡價金支付方式來台後場域及工作地點等情資那麼提供海洋委員會及海巡署繼續做相關的處理"},{"start":5195.814,"end":5213.832,"text":"另外我們也強化情資的收集與分享本部警政署及移民署強化情資的收集,堂有具體的情資及通報相關代位藉由聯合查緝阻攔目標,即使堵絕外來人士偷渡案件的發生以維護社會治安以及國家安全"},{"start":5214.873,"end":5228.561,"text":"同時我們也強化大陸偷渡犯的收容替代期間的一些管理本部移民署針對收容替代之大陸偷渡犯以強化監控作為要求他們每日必須接受該署專情隊的電話聯繫每三日必須到專情隊報到並明確告知不得接受採訪"},{"start":5235.244,"end":5254.742,"text":"離峽前必須報備同意以及不得進入重要軍事設施及國家安全軍事機關等相關管制區域等規範另外該署也會試個案包括對外國人以及中國大陸人士評估風險必要時指定居住於適當場所強化監控管理"},{"start":5255.803,"end":5265.675,"text":"第四,我們也研修法令以制度面透過制度面來完善整個完整的配套本部名屬已均於112年修正入出國籍移民法"},{"start":5266.673,"end":5296.016,"text":"明定違反收容替代處分者可再次收容為進一步強化收容替代期間之管理作為該署於114年底再研修、增訂涉有危害國家安全之餘者再次收容等修正條例草案目前已循法治程序呈報行政院審查中現行大陸通渡犯如於收容替代期間違反相關法令移民署將依現行台灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例規定再與收容"},{"start":5296.576,"end":5306.189,"text":"堂有個案爭議將依情節 函請大陸委員會解釋後及繼續法辦以上報告恭請各位委員先進指教 謝謝接下來請海洋委員會張副主委上台報告"},{"start":5320.134,"end":5348.164,"text":"主席 各位委員先進 各位女士先生 大家好海委會緊就海巡署的所業館部分針對近期中國級小型船隻非法侵入我國領海之徵收程序以及科技見證設備建置以精進作為 摘要報告如下本會海巡署就防患小型目標偷渡侵入作為 整合科技設備跟能力有關強化三道見證目的能量運作說明如下"},{"start":5348.724,"end":5375.773,"text":"那第一個部分是雷達監控部分靈活應用船舶自動辨別系統漁船監控系統海情資訊系統以及雷情系統以及艦船艇的艇上雷達落實海上目標的增資第二個部分是守望的監控目標脫離雷達的監控守望服務儀增收設備充分掌握發揮護士監控的效能第三項是岸際巡邏部分掌握轄區特性以及治安違規熱區"},{"start":5378.214,"end":5404.333,"text":"規劃巡邏路線及巡邏點至重點於雷達盲區守望監控死角超前部署機動兵力及時查處另外為了彌補上述相關的這些缺漏有關海巡署就近期科技監偵設備的建置緊究岸際雷達系統防外線熱影像系統以及反彈智慧型監控系統說明如下海巡署岸際雷達可依照轄區特性以及天候海上狀況彈性調整偵測參數"},{"start":5408.096,"end":5422.331,"text":"來強化目標的增貨率另外配合國土安全防衛任性特別預算目前正在規劃建置最先進的雷達設備並導入AI自動判斷功能以利提升對小型目標的增資與識別並且減少人力的負擔"},{"start":5423.092,"end":5450.91,"text":"同時海巡組正積極規劃籌建黃岸線熱影相系統以及環島智慧型岸際監控系統以彌補雷達監控的下系紅色海灘大陸海警船滋擾海域大陸越界漁船聚集的熱區小型目標偷渡高風險的區域海濫的風險海域以及救生救難的熱區等區域以涵蓋不同距離岸海監控的熱區強化並且強化夜間徵收的能量"},{"start":5451.59,"end":5473.992,"text":"另外,針對小型目標偷渡威脅,業宇整合科技設備以及人力部署,全面提升徵收預警以及即時運輸的能力,並且落實勤務的紀律,密駐海面目標的動態,機動預置兵力,以達到攔截於海上,阻絕於岸際的目標,並持續強化防堵作為,以確保國際安全無力。以上報告,敬請委員執教。"},{"start":5483.052,"end":5499.196,"text":"我們現在開始詢答本會委員8加2分鐘非本會委員5分鐘10點30分截止發言登記如果有臨時提案請於10點30分前提出11點左右處理現在請王定宇委員上台質詢謝謝主席 麻煩國安局長跟陸委會副主委"},{"start":5511.492,"end":5513.86,"text":"請國安局長以及陸委會副主委"},{"start":5522.4,"end":5549.081,"text":"我先請教這個在台灣一個民主的台灣最大的在野黨國民黨去訪問中國跟中共的總書記習近平見面之後中國端出了所謂十大會台不過我昨天仔細看了啦這以前在什麼21會台啦15會台長得都很像啦這個十大會台它是加了兩它加了政治前提"},{"start":5550.47,"end":5559.845,"text":"弄了一個政治架構是單向的迴避台灣政府參與的我先請教國安會國安局有關這一個"},{"start":5561.466,"end":5588.126,"text":"我們台灣的在野黨訪問中國這件事情以及中國因應的局勢國安會有沒有進行討論過對 這部分早上跟媒體朋友在做說明這一次中共的操作大概有三個層面戰略面就強調台海的核戰是由他來主導來排除外力的介入另外一部分是在政治上強調所謂的中華民族的偉大復興還有兩岸和平的制度化發展"},{"start":5589.186,"end":5611.234,"text":"內容都只有中華人民共和國的語彙導到所謂的一中的政治框架那再來就是經濟上的一個吸納來增加我們對它的一個經濟市場力量有啊 它的金馬四通也好 或者公共國際市場當然那個議題要好好討論 而且應該是政府對政府那個是建立依存度把它內化進去我剛才問的是說我們國安會有沒有針對這個局勢因為後面還有川習會"},{"start":5612.214,"end":5626.052,"text":"有沒有針對這個進行討論我們都有在各部會交換相關的意見那也對於最新的發展由各部會來對外做完整的討論所以國安會有進行討論那我要請教啦就你們目前分析這個所謂十大會台會的是誰"},{"start":5627.671,"end":5649.953,"text":"對,我今天早上在跟媒體說明了,這種所謂會台措施大概每到台灣選舉期間就會被提出來討論那兩岸的觀光或是農漁產品的採購也是歷來都被拿出來做中方的一個操作那所以我們在解讀上認為這是一個統戰跟競選的一個手法我看起來不管叫中小企業去投資,現在中國的經濟下滑嘛"},{"start":5650.831,"end":5675.565,"text":"台灣的經濟還不錯去投資到底是匯到誰那比方說他又要開放農產品農產品我們吃的虧還不夠多啊2019年以前我們台灣的農產品80%其實是內銷的兩成左右外銷以前兩成左右外銷像我們關廟的鳳梨我們外銷大概有八成多以前依賴中國市場他莫名其妙沒有理由的一下鳳梨一下蓮霧一下鳳梨釋迦"},{"start":5678.083,"end":5700.924,"text":"他想要製造我們外銷的農產品出不去回來影響到我們國內市場以農逼政後來從2020年開始前政府蔡英文政府到現在我們的分散市場已經把對中國依賴的八成左右現在降到大概10%上下已經壓低了像鳳梨現在日本是我們第一大市場我請教陸委會副主委這是你的業務"},{"start":5702.205,"end":5722.782,"text":"有關中國的十大會台他有一個政治前提他的一中是沒有中華民國的啦他的反台獨中國的反台獨是台灣中華民國維持現狀任何主權形式的用途他都定義成台獨他加了兩個政治前提才要跟你隱世交流才要跟你中小企業等等等等"},{"start":5723.843,"end":5731.851,"text":"然後呢他這個過程是單向決定沒有我們政府的角色透過在野黨扶植在國內的附庸啦陸委會對這事情態度是什麼"},{"start":5736.309,"end":5759.546,"text":"陸委會的看法是這樣就是說這一次對中共來講的話它所獲得的不管在統戰上的效果在國際社會上面的宣傳的效果對美中台關係影響的效果然後對接下來可能美台軍售的影響效果都遠遠大於這十項所謂的會台措施"},{"start":5760.939,"end":5779.611,"text":"就是說中共整個他在宣傳上的這個得到的好處這個實相措施是根本是遠遠不能比的這實相措施其實你仔細看了他其實過去都是曾經有過的都講過的比較新的可能就是所謂遠洋漁船的這個部分"},{"start":5780.472,"end":5803.728,"text":"那這個部分我們還在研究但是其他的部分其實對台灣的不管是他其實其他是舊品裝舊酒不過你剛才講的翻譯起來是說這個十大會談以前都提過了對那對台灣有沒有什麼好處遠不如對中國的好處沒有錯甚至於對台灣的傷害有關對美軍購啦我們對外的相關的事情安全的事務那個傷害"},{"start":5804.488,"end":5822.95,"text":"弊大於利你剛才表達的是這個嗎沒有錯我請教他們說要開放自由行我們現在政府的態度是什麼自由行也是兩岸相關協議的其中的一個部分自由行跟團體行都是我們過去曾經有過的協議的一部分"},{"start":5823.47,"end":5848.631,"text":"那自由行他們是2019年就把它片面斷掉了那所以要再開的話這個就跟要重開這個團體行是一樣的也就是說我們還是希望說兩邊的小兩會能夠先做會談會談把一些東西敲定之後再來進行但是因為我們一直發出多次的呼籲希望對方能夠跟我們重新啟動小兩會的"},{"start":5850.992,"end":5872.569,"text":"這個協商但是目前對方是完全沒有回應所以團體型的部分一直都卡在這邊那現在又突然又要講說要自由行那我覺得狀況還是一樣就是說不管團體型自由行都是要他們的口頭表示是開放可是作為上根本是不處理對作為上沒有他完全不處理譬如說他說他幾個兩三個月前"},{"start":5876.095,"end":5896.731,"text":"宣布說什麼上海上海可以到上海居民可以到金門馬祖對但是到目前為止為止他們並沒有宣布具體的措施因為那個不是開放就開放我要去你家也要約時間啊對沒有錯要從門進去還是從窗進去那一樣的一個國家要入境有很多東西要處理所以他現在在實質的作為上沒有做法"},{"start":5897.331,"end":5919.222,"text":"恐會而實不至目前沒有看到目前阻擋的不是我們嘛我們是開放的態度大家可以來談他現在是不跟我們的官方談片面要放那上一次說上海可以到金門到目前為止也沒有實質的執行層次的磋商都沒有沒有錯因為大陸大陸人民他要到台灣來他必須當地的公安局他必須要說"},{"start":5920.843,"end":5940.811,"text":"大家可以來申請我可以批准你到我們講這個大同鎮批准你到台灣去那現在上海市的 不管是上海市的公安局也好福建市的公安局也好 福建省的公安局也好都沒有宣布說上海居民可以申請到台灣去的旅遊簽證"},{"start":5942.111,"end":5968.368,"text":"所以就是一個口頭宣示沒有實質做法不過他好像很刻意的就是迴避跟台灣民選的政府進行接觸這個是不切實際的啦公權力台灣是民主國家公權力的授權來自於人民選舉的結果你迴避公權力的授權怎麼處理入出境的問題好那個副主委先請回我繼續請教我們國安局局長那請國安部副部長上來啦"},{"start":5970.4,"end":5978.501,"text":"我現在這個是發想有關這一個掃雷的東西那個梁文傑副主委可以回座"},{"start":5980.832,"end":6009.01,"text":"現在我們從塑膠袋到石油到柏油AC其實都因為荷姆茲海峽鎖住了造成全球這個部分的需求量暴增供應量不足所以坦白講先不講大的經濟層面的影響其實對我們的民生各方面的需求其實有些影響那在地緣政治上你也看到了川普一直表達說你們都是我的好朋友都沒有來幫忙他還威脅要退出北約"},{"start":6010.572,"end":6028.01,"text":"那當然我們台灣在能參與的事務很有限美國也未必能接受所以我請教國安局跟國防部的副部長在安全無虞的前提下在物料後勤補給可以得到備援下"},{"start":6028.951,"end":6033.532,"text":"我們台灣適不適合表達 我們願意支援雷雷 掃雷雷雷雷雷雷雷雷雷雷雷雷雷雷雷雷雷雷雷雷雷雷雷雷雷雷雷雷雷雷雷"},{"start":6046.984,"end":6070.786,"text":"委員提的是一個假設性的議題這未必假設 你表達出去他接受了是一件事情 他不接受 感謝你的善意也是一件事情當現在荷姆茲海峽 其實現在因為水雷就算他們停戰協議停完了 兩邊不打了船也不好過去 就是因為水雷的問題裡面遍佈數千枚水雷"},{"start":6071.627,"end":6083.466,"text":"那我們如果向美方表達說我們願意支援列雷掃雷但是我們有一些顧慮安全啦後勤補給啦表達這樣的意願他不是假設而是說這樣表達適不適合"},{"start":6085.185,"end":6110.604,"text":"基本上因為我會講的是假設性問題是目前並不是一個議題那假如像委員的這樣一個推論的話那就國安局的角度我只代表國安局來做評估的話我們會注意到的是整體的中東的安全情勢那以及台灣畢竟跟其他的美國盟友不太一樣我們還必須要審慎的評估我們當面敵情的動態你才有辦法去做一些相關病例的調整跟調度那當然後續還有一個能量的評估畢竟"},{"start":6111.384,"end":6116.813,"text":"中東地區還是比較有一些後勤補給設施必須要處理的局勢也複雜所以這部分可能是比較複雜的我請教國防部副部長你從赫姆茲海峽其實就了解其實"},{"start":6126.562,"end":6151.755,"text":"水雷這個或者智慧水雷這種不對稱戰力其實你看伊朗伊朗跟美軍的實力那個沒辦法比較的可是他用水雷把赫姆斯海峽封住了所以我現在請教你請你簡短回答第一個就是我國當然我們前面造了幾艘布雷艇我們的布雷跟智慧水雷的進度第二個我們現在掃雷艦我在去年看到你們的報告要走向所謂的智慧排雷"},{"start":6153.256,"end":6169.768,"text":"無人載具的排雷這個進度如何第三個一樣的問題在安全後勤補給無餘下台灣去表達這樣的gesture說我們願意支援川普願意支援美國國防部的評估如何這三個題目請你回答"},{"start":6170.583,"end":6195.2,"text":"先回答委員第三個題目當然委員這個想法相當有創意我們是沒有這麼想過但是我想關鍵還是委員講的兩個前提就是後勤補給跟保障方面那我們那個船這您可以看到並不大要開到荷姆斯恐怕很難開過去了沒辦法可能要用船載的方式"},{"start":6195.92,"end":6209.545,"text":"那這個就恐怕要看這個條件具不具足另外剛才國安局局長也說了我們也非常同意其實我們台海周邊戰備的負荷是很重的所以這個"},{"start":6212.246,"end":6239.741,"text":"貢建常常在襲擾那我們這個非常有限的掃雷的戰力是不是合出去我們還要評估不過委員這個想法我們再回去評估這是那個前提很重要我只是說這個議題可以思考但是第一題跟第二題才是真正的命題我們自己的水雷智慧水雷的能力我們自己的排雷列雷掃雷的能力國防部現在有計畫因為我看我們預算都放在"},{"start":6240.663,"end":6252.415,"text":"主力艦一級艦二級艦三級艦那對於這一種其實老舊的船艦資源性的船艦其實蠻嚴重的啦國防部目前有什麼想法我們請海軍參謀長回答一下"},{"start":6256.69,"end":6274.399,"text":"韓軍常務長 針對委員的題目 我們這邊回答的狀況是第一個有關掃雷的建制 我們目前持續在做但是我們是重點在濱海作戰的區域裡面不管是掃雷或是蒸雷你們無人載具掃雷的部分開始做了嗎我們是後續在規劃"},{"start":6275.359,"end":6303.38,"text":"還在規劃當中嘛 是沒有持續的戰力啊 至於掃雷的載具的部分有關掃雷艇的部分我們就持續建案在執行的OK 好 所以你認為我們現在掃雷排雷的能力夠不夠部委我們在持續在做就是遠遠不夠嘛 是我們布雷的能力呢我們布雷的能力包含了整備的能力還有後續我們剛剛有關建造持續在建造這個布雷艇的部分我們數量會持續的增加目前在持續的建構中"},{"start":6304.896,"end":6319.457,"text":"有啦,前幾年在榮德那邊造了幾艘嘛那智慧水雷的進度呢?這個持續在車購中你這樣也沒有回答今年會弄出來嗎?目前是在努力中"},{"start":6320.441,"end":6348.615,"text":"因為我們之前看到某一個美商有提供一種型號嘛是那個有進行討論嗎有有討論是那有要做還是還在討論中我們是在討論中是我覺得荷姆斯海峽是一個很好的借鏡是那時間未必站在我們這邊啦是你們持續加油謝謝委員好接下來請羅美玲委員上台質詢"},{"start":6357.517,"end":6362.445,"text":"謝謝主席 有請海委會張忠隆副主委請海委會副主委"},{"start":6366.176,"end":6387.343,"text":"委員好副主委好副主委針對今天的這個題目我們從113年的6月到去年其實呢我們我國的西北海岸呢發生了多起的這個中國的小型船隻還有這個橡皮艇入侵的這個事件而且這個發生的地點呢都是在這個雷達的範圍之內"},{"start":6391.684,"end":6404.835,"text":"那之前我有看到這個海巡署有提到就是說因為橡皮艇因為它的目標比較小體積比較小然後再來材質反射也不容也比較弱那再加上這個浪竿的這個"},{"start":6407.317,"end":6410.52,"text":"跟這個浪竿呢其實會有一些雜訊的這個混雜所以造成我們這個雷達呢它其實是沒有辦法來做這個偵獲的那當然這也顯示表示說我們的這個行間針的這個系統其實是出了很大的這個問題"},{"start":6424.392,"end":6431.78,"text":"那當然我今天有看到這個報告就是說其實海巡署針對這些科技的這個系統其實我們有來做這個加強可是我想先問想針對這個113年6月9號"},{"start":6439.549,"end":6461.91,"text":"那這個中國的這個小船入侵的這個事件其實這些事件不單單是我們的這個監偵系統出了問題其實那個時候也有被這個監察院糾正有提出這個調查報告那有提到其實我們有人為的疏失甚至還有紀律的這個問題因為我有看到這個那個監察院的這報告裡面有提到就是說其實呢我們的海巡人員"},{"start":6462.691,"end":6489.814,"text":"相關的人員並沒有落實執行海岸巡防機關這個雷情傳遞作業要點跟海岸巡防機關雷情傳遞細部執行作業指導就是因為在沒有完全沒有按照這SOP來所以呢其實除了這個監偵系統有問題之外人為的這個疏失也很嚴重那我也看到海巡署這邊對相關的人員其實也有做出了一些懲處那之後呢我有看到"},{"start":6490.775,"end":6517.85,"text":"還清楚就是說未來在建置這個次世代雷達以前呢針對人員操作及後續通報等流程會先訂定雷達系統目標增或及延期功能操作指引我想請教這個部分目前我們到底有沒有在執行這個部分跟剛剛本席所提到的那兩個作業要點跟作業指導它們之間的內容的不一樣的點在哪裡"},{"start":6518.53,"end":6540.514,"text":"因為之前那兩個作業要點都沒有辦法來執行了那後續我們怎麼來操作這個雷達系統目標增貨及延續功能操作指引請問副主委我這邊特別跟委員報告那那個案子過以後我們在114年的6月17號有訂定一個雷達系統目標增貨跟延續功能操作指引"},{"start":6540.674,"end":6560.075,"text":"那這個指引除了提供給各單位依據小學特訓應用以外而且定期的針對重大案例跟請問為事樣態辦理專案的補訓那一直到今到今年的四月十號我們已經總共完成了七十二場次的這個講席還有我們四百九十七位的人做"},{"start":6561.136,"end":6587.609,"text":"這個教育訓練 另外為了要強化我們目標增後跟業階能力 那目前我們已經在國內防災認診的特別算裡面我們針對次世代的雷達 紅外線熱影像跟環繞直行監控系統然後而且這個計畫裡面導入AI的自動辨別功能減少人為的疏失那我想這個系統建置完在1146年全部完成以後可以大幅縮小這個小型目標創安的機率"},{"start":6588.729,"end":6609.158,"text":"而且可以對於小型目標增握是很有幫助的現在副主委講的其實是兩個部分一個部分其實就是關於這個AI智能我們未來的雷達設備會導入這個AI智能自動判讀這個設備的部分那另外提的就是人員訓練的這個部分可是這個訓練完之後會不會確實來做這個執行這個操作"},{"start":6612.68,"end":6634.665,"text":"我想這部分也是海巡署這邊要特別要去留意的部分因為我們之前就已經有所謂的作業指導相關的作業指導作業要點可是呢海巡的相關人員並沒有按照這個SOP來做執行來做操作尤其是這一個富士監看跟互相通報這個部分呢其實是在113年6月這個小船登陸的這個事件呢凸顯出來說這部分我們操作人員就是沒有確實來執行"},{"start":6641.147,"end":6666.96,"text":"所以我們如果訓練完之後如何去做監督如何要求這些操作人員一定要按照SOP來做處理那如果沒有的話應該是要做懲處尤其是這跟國土的安全有很大的關係我覺得這部分才是重要的我們除了訓練之外之後要求他們一定要確實來做執行我想這次海巡署就是要來未來就是要加強的這個部分"},{"start":6667.6,"end":6681.253,"text":"好那再來還有一點我想請教的就是說像我們現在也有設置紅外線熱影像跟智慧型暗記監控系統那之前我有看到就是說其實這部分的話其實我們還是需要高度的仰賴人員長時間的盯著這個海面來看"},{"start":6683.935,"end":6701.677,"text":"而且所以說我們這個還沒有完全做到充分的自動化那當然我今天在這報告裡面也提到說我們目前也在積極籌劃籌建紅外線影像系統跟環保智慧型這個暗記監控系統這跟先前我們的這個系統的差別在哪裡"},{"start":6703.625,"end":6719.056,"text":"我們次世代雷達跟環境熱影像以及環球資源監控那這個性能就比現有的性能高出非常多那另外一部分這個部分就全部都導入AI的整個判別然後可以自動辨別目標然後減少人為誤判"},{"start":6720.277,"end":6733.645,"text":"那這個部分特別跟委員報告那這個引進了相關的這些設備以後然後就可以減少剛剛我特別提到的部分就是減少任何的疏失然後可以自動判別然後另外一個部分就是預警的時間會提早"},{"start":6735.746,"end":6760.348,"text":"所以會比現階段我們現有的這個部分其實是會...就性能高度非常的高OK OK 了解那像過去的話我們海巡署也說在106年的時候我們盤點出有168處監偵的這個空隙可能目前我們已經有彌補109處那剩下呢剩下的59處的話我們現在是怎麼樣的處理方式畢竟這也是國安漏洞這個有辦法目前有補強嗎"},{"start":6761.617,"end":6791.037,"text":"跟委員報告我們這剩下來的這幾處我們就全部用我們現在的新採購的這些相關設備來做彌補那另外在還沒採購之前我們會用機動雷達車還有巡邏的部分還有相互左右邊的這個雷達互相覆蓋的方式以及劍環頂情務情務的調配的部分來彌補這個所謂的這個雷達盲區這個部分目前在這個針尖的方針尖的這個方式上面已經改善非常多"},{"start":6792.718,"end":6818.955,"text":"提到這個雷達盲區我們就會想到這個無人機像無人機的話它的機動性也比較高對於一些我們說地形有些地形的話它可能就是比較崎嶇的地方也許在雷達它可能沒有辦法監測到其實無人機它是一個很好的輔助工具可是我們所知道的就是說海巡署現役的這個無人機只有16架而且是地帶的那它續航力只有50分鐘"},{"start":6820.336,"end":6840.547,"text":"其實對現在的這個現行的監偵體系來講的話它的這個效應是有效的那我也了解像之前其實我們海巡署其實有要準備要來籌貨這個第二代的這個無人機可是因為廠商呢可能對某些系統是沒有辦法來做配合後來取消了這個契約那我在想請問海巡署這後續的這個無人機的籌貨我們有什麼樣的計畫"},{"start":6843.968,"end":6868.763,"text":"這邊跟委員包括其實我們很清楚應該是所有公共機關裡面第一個用無人機來執行侵入還有包括救生救難部分因為這個機器是在107年當時的環境背景下科技並沒有那麼先進現在的無人機其實它是非常先進的剛剛委員特別提到我們第二代的無人機我們在去年已經標出去了今年6月會交機"},{"start":6869.704,"end":6881.886,"text":"那這六架的無人機它的性能跟這個偵測範圍距離還有它的整個功能部分比現在強太多了所以這部分可以完全彌補這我們16架的不足"},{"start":6882.372,"end":6909.008,"text":"可以說明一下嗎這六架的性能跟這六架的那個滯空的時間可以長達十個小時可以長達十個小時十個小時滯空可以十個小時目前是六架那還沒有這是目前還在六月份會交機什麼時候六月份現在在做教育訓練OK好謝謝那當然這些設備一定要有"},{"start":6909.741,"end":6927.205,"text":"一定要有經費的支持一定要有這個預算的這個支持那剛剛我們張副主委剛剛提了很多就是說我們針對這些缺失我們會來做補強那可是我們所知道就是說114年度的總預算當中其中有3500萬涉及包含執法裝備籌補救生救難裝備的這個籌補那還有特勤武器籌補精進等預算呢其實都被在野黨凍結了"},{"start":6938.567,"end":6951.041,"text":"那115年的總預算呢到現在都還沒有付為審查那會不會影響到我們前面剛剛張副主委所提到的這些設備或者是裝備或者是這些科技這些勤奸證設備的一些補強這個會不會影響"},{"start":6954.164,"end":6979.559,"text":"我們115年總計的預算編列是294億那我剛剛講的這些科技增進設備裡面這個部分是在特別預算裡面已經通過了然後我們總共有284億那中間有一部分是做無人機紅外線跟雷達部分 台灣所以這個部分的增加我們的增收範圍跟增收能力的預算是不受影響的那另外在年度預算裡面當然有一部分會受一部分的影響"},{"start":6980.72,"end":6984.082,"text":"所以目前的話如果說總預算沒有過的話是會對這個裝備跟設備的補強其實是會有影響的那當然也就會影響到這個國土的安全那再來的話我有看到就是說像我們要汰換這個3G 4G M化偵查系統補強碼頭風化維安工程等等新計劃其實也是在我們的115年度的這個總預算裡面這些其實都會影響到"},{"start":7008.656,"end":7009.937,"text":"我們接下來請陳永康委員上台質詢"},{"start":7055.146,"end":7079.175,"text":"主席有請國安局局長跟國防部副部長請國安局長以及國防部副部長局長副部長兩位早安剛剛聽取了貴單位的報告我下面提出一些建議各位看這個圖表就是說"},{"start":7082.557,"end":7105.216,"text":"中共目前在进行的手法是武吓现阶段那实际上是采取灰色地带的行动这种采取灰色行动在国际情势上面来讲不管是邦交国非邦交国它基于它的利益着眼它通常是用这四个手法组合起来的这里面就包括了刚才您提到的"},{"start":7105.856,"end":7120.688,"text":"包括有媒體戰心理戰甚至法律戰那這種狀況下很容易導致國內在情勢上的一個判斷上的失焦因為有很多的錯誤訊息就像上次您提到的我們講deep fake這個"},{"start":7122.989,"end":7136.197,"text":"從開始叫做misinformation disinformation然後fake news最後組合起來變成一個deep fake那對國內的媒體的解說判斷形式上都是會產生很大的一個問題"},{"start":7137.523,"end":7160.272,"text":"那么至于他的具体行动灰色地带的行动本来就是一种消耗战就是说对你的民心士气对你的使用装备的妥善率因为你耗损很大两边的量值的数量上不对等所以说你要想用这个所谓的我们准备的不对称呢去抵消"},{"start":7161.272,"end":7180.083,"text":"站立的不对称用不对称站立抵消这中间我们解释要有调整的空间最主要我们要导入一个不对称的战略思维而不是用装备去对等说我可以offset你的所以这个图各位看一下就是说网络的活动实际的行动嚇阻外交信息作战"},{"start":7182.037,"end":7198.253,"text":"夾雜了剛才講的一個法律戰一個媒體戰一個心理戰這個東西對我們來講這是一個持續不斷的壓力跟挑戰那請看下一張圖這張圖就是說這個對國安跟國防部來講是需要涵蓋這個大幅度的"},{"start":7198.956,"end":7223.712,"text":"那么不只是涵盖台湾本身的防空识别区连周遭的比方讲东海大陆的东海防空识别区日本的防空识别区菲律宾跟我周遭相连的部分我们都要能够掌握到那上面这个图啊就是中共3月27到5月6号啊他讲的这个呃就是一个就是空中任务通告啊表示这个区域啊是受限的"},{"start":7224.272,"end":7249.489,"text":"那这个是早上今天8点40分的民航机的表示他虽然心理战划出这个区其实民航局的航线路径在上海飞航情报区的管制路线内并没有冲击对就上次我们提到过了那这个部分是因为国防部跟国安都在关注可是我们再看下面这张图这个就跟我们的这个"},{"start":7251.914,"end":7255.67,"text":"這個所謂的海巡署跟海軍就產生很大的壓力"},{"start":7256.758,"end":7284.246,"text":"这个是啊今天早上八点三十啊你你用啊用三个软体啊到四个软体用visual trackingmarine traffic啊那全部可以对应在领海基线以内十二里二十四里这中间呢所有黄色的是商船啊红色的是邮轮但是这里面有上百计的灰色的不管是在毛破的啊或者是在行动通通把AIS关掉"},{"start":7285.219,"end":7307.164,"text":"那因此对于我们海海巡的同仁来讲我们举例来讲刚刚提了虽然有很多的投资未来在海岸监控不管设有多少定点雷达站或者是机动雷达站再加上未来的红外线的侦测因为对于这种RCS非常小的目的"},{"start":7308.084,"end":7323.168,"text":"基本上傳統雷達就算先進雷達你的涵蓋範圍跟距離是很短的所以這個不能把它變成海巡署單一的責任那我建議是什麼做呢第一個你把台灣周遭所有的海岸線1200公里長度"},{"start":7325.049,"end":7352.055,"text":"去掉有些悬崖峭壁没有连外的你每20公里你把一个卫星照片把海滩连外道路配合road map全部套叠起来我们大概用50张图这个用国内的研究机制你不管是找学校合作或是大海局把你这个图做出来了海军海巡共同分讲也就是说你雷达站的位置配合你往后无人机可以涵盖的范围"},{"start":7353.669,"end":7375.703,"text":"现在无人机当然刚刚讲到了你的endurance持续力有多远续航力有多长最主要就是你传输的距离有多少那这个传输的频道通讯频道是要花钱的并不是free的所以买了装备以后维持费跟使用费你要帮他纳入他的年度作为费里面"},{"start":7376.403,"end":7406.043,"text":"那这种情况下来如果今天海巡跟海军因为海军涵盖的范围是比较大的它的雷达是征收中大型的目标的我们讲的小型跟微型是不同的你如果今天一个RCS只有0.1个meter square这不是我们海军传统的那你对空看的话它可能是逆中的可能是无人机的那对空跟海面的搜索又是不同雷达的规格所以这个部分就是海巡跟海军将来有大家共同合作努力的空间"},{"start":7406.663,"end":7420.339,"text":"最主要就是說基本上現在的我們電子海圖是內政部在出但實際上海圖的校正是大氣海洋局在做那做出來圖像海圖航圖經過校正套疊"},{"start":7421.62,"end":7445.155,"text":"這個時候他有一個不明目標出來的時候有沒有配合他的空中的飛機給他做導引這個未來我們在追蹤上面就是說他不只是工程的技術不只是我們的法規那這裡面還有說戰術思維的運用我們希望在這個未來將來跨域的單位第一個我們講的共同圖像並不是說開會的時候拿出來打的"},{"start":7446.021,"end":7464.562,"text":"我打比方来讲我们有很多地方的这个显示图像啊他并没有接入我们的每个地区的网络也就是说海巡是不是跟海军会立即通但是现在进步的是什么呢我如果今天我我现在有我有这个智慧型的手机那个眼镜啊我有两到三个"},{"start":7465.68,"end":7493.308,"text":"那么看到的雷达图像就进到手机然后用你的频道就传出去了而不是要你的装备的实体去网络因为执法并不是在暂时它成平时期它的压力就已经非常大了所以要不同的人在不同的location做监控这个时候可能人力的复合我们也建议未来给它提升那最主要就是共同图像从大区的战略图像到分区的小图像那"},{"start":7494.048,"end":7512.057,"text":"今天主要讲的是那个围形的目标那这个东西并不能用装备的规格来审视说一定抓得到所以这个责任是要分摊但是不要哪一个人摊那我把这个提出构想后面几个我把做一个流程给大家做参考就不要用太多的时间"},{"start":7513.413,"end":7535.225,"text":"像海巡署裝了這個寬頻的系統它有效支援範圍互通程度那麼速發部兩年前就是提升了將來警消對話的流程爭取這個閘道的在台建置能不能夠更高的頻寬流量利誘站這個都提供大家做參考"},{"start":7535.945,"end":7551.02,"text":"那速发部以前提供的就是低轨卫星我们现在能够用到什么程度这些通通都是我们在持续在努力精进的最后一个就是海上无人小型目标的监控这个部分我们提供国防部做一个参考"},{"start":7551.44,"end":7572.388,"text":"那我覺得這些細節不在這邊討論,我想聽一下局長跟副部長您的回應。好,跟委員大概提醒了有三個部分的重點。那第一部分就是針對中共對台灣的複合式威脅。那正如委員指出來的,它可能包括到的有軍事的恫嚇、經濟的脅迫、資安的侵擾、認知作戰的操作以及海上揮帶的侵擾。"},{"start":7573.328,"end":7593.76,"text":"那我想我們在日常每天都應對這些中共的複合式威脅那不能夠掉以輕心那很有可能這些複合式威脅也是未來中共要在台海新興續戰的一個前置的一個作業流程所以這部分我們國安情報機關這邊倒是有建立一個跨部會的情資整合的平台希望能夠掌握最新的海上的中共侵擾的動態"},{"start":7594.54,"end":7618.525,"text":"那第二部分是我有提到空域保留區的部分那確實像委員所提出來的我們在第一時間去查證就發現到他的那個空域保留區並沒有去重疊到相關的民航機的航線刻意避開那第二個我們跟民航單位確認也都不必再跟上海飛航情報局做任何的通報所以比較存在高的是一個政治上抱歉軍事上跟政治上的意涵"},{"start":7621.127,"end":7634.36,"text":"我們並不需要跟上海飛航局做通報我最主要是告訴你上海飛航情報區它的航線畫出來的圖我們需要有然後你去對應當時的飛行路徑一比較就可以了"},{"start":7635.041,"end":7655.5,"text":"他完全避開的完全避開好那第三點是委員有在提醒了怎麼樣來透過多元情資的整合來彙整相關的情資那並且有一個共同的一個圖台圖像的一個展現那事實上針對這個部分我本人在上個月也才到海巡署跟海巡署說一起主管來針對一些新的我們的一個"},{"start":7656.601,"end":7657.442,"text":"副部長做一個簡單的回應"},{"start":7672.964,"end":7694.132,"text":"是委員三點第一點您的這個powerpoint實在是我非常崇拜麻煩分享給我們我仔細閱讀跟學習一下第二點呢我非常贊成您所說的要跨單位的協助協同那現在我們海軍跟海巡署實際上已經在協同他們情志是分享這個問題不是這個問題問題是"},{"start":7697.216,"end":7711.275,"text":"兩個第一個就您所說的關於ISR的增資的能力要興建剛才海巡署也說了我們也說了我們都在建無人機也好或者是衛星也好那另外一個是"},{"start":7712.335,"end":7729.866,"text":"AI因為你去收了大量的圖資你如果沒有AI是根本人是盼不過來的所以AI是非常非常重要的那我們本部的AI目前是在特別預算的理念那最後一點就是這個未來我是希望"},{"start":7732.007,"end":7749.117,"text":"這個大家都具有AI能力以後彼此協助但是這裡我要跟委員報告我們國軍的徵收目標跟任務導向還是跟海巡不一樣所以可能到時候AI完了以後各自還是有各自徵收的對象以上"},{"start":7750.919,"end":7762.586,"text":"還有一個小問題請海巡署回答因為在您的報告中提到監控包括紅色海灘您的定義紅色海灘是什麼黃色海灘就是我們現在國防部定義的紅色海灘"},{"start":7763.892,"end":7785.826,"text":"那個不一樣紅色海灘是兩溪登陸正規的登陸但是現在都已經到迎擊以下了所以那個紅色海灘並不是你現在的重點我這邊提出個建議你最主要就是他滲透登陸滲透搶灘跟那個真正的兩溪正規的你看得到周波進行要登陸那個海灘那個倒不是您這邊的重點謝謝"},{"start":7791.991,"end":7821.452,"text":"好 接下來請陳俊宇委員上台質詢好 謝謝主席 我們有請我們國安局蔡局長跟海委會的張副主委請國安局長以及海委會副主委好 謝謝主席 副主委早副主委早"},{"start":7823.45,"end":7849.728,"text":"近年來我們看到這個中共不論是在台海或是東海還是南海有透過這個船隻的騷擾周邊海域的一個灰色地帶襲擾的問題那我相信這我們許多委員都一直在關心那他們目前已經從這個零星的偶發事件逐漸轉變成為高度的這種組織化規模化的這種軍事行動那中共試圖在不觸發"},{"start":7851.376,"end":7869.548,"text":"這個軍事衝突的情況之下不斷的升級這個侵擾的行為來試探我們這個防衛的底線那對我們的這個國家安全所產生的威脅也逐漸的升高對此我想針對這個部分來這個中共的這個海上民兵的部分來和兩位做討論"},{"start":7870.689,"end":7895.554,"text":"那過去一段時間中共在這個東海南海展現出他們在海上動員能力的這個提升尤其今年年初這個紐約時報有一篇報導引起大家的注意根據這個內容中共在去年的這個聖誕節還有這個今年的一月分別動員了兩千艘的還有一千四百艘的這個漁船在東海排成巨型的陣列這個隊形長達數百公里"},{"start":7899.199,"end":7911.114,"text":"這不像是這個漁業活動的樣態更像是這個帶有軍事意圖的編隊行動目的可能就是要在演練的海上築成一道"},{"start":7911.673,"end":7931.46,"text":"具有阻擋效果的這種長程那使得對手在軍事介入的這種行動還有他後勤補給的路線上產生這個必要的障礙那中共發展這個海上民兵行之有年那甚至可能已經參與到對台這個軍演當中在另外的一份這個智庫的報"},{"start":7933.181,"end":7945.907,"text":"報告當中也看到去年這個中共海上民兵的活動數量創下最高的紀錄那顯示他們在發展的這個腳步似乎也沒有減緩的這個情形因此我想請教局長"},{"start":7947.366,"end":7974.421,"text":"我們估算目前中共的這個海上民兵的這個規模有多大那中共有能力動員的這個民兵還有他的船隻大概有多少這第一點那另外我們觀察他在這個平時任務的性質所採取的這個手段或是部署的這個安排頻率上有沒有什麼樣的一個轉變的異狀好 那就中共海上民兵的部分"},{"start":7976.513,"end":7995.371,"text":"他大概在沿海的11個省市都有海上民兵的編制那主要都是由中央軍委的國防動員部來進行相關的管理那平時由海警來進行指揮那暫時就移交給三大戰區包括北戰、東戰、南戰來進行暫時的指揮這大概他基本的運作機制"},{"start":7995.771,"end":8019.369,"text":"那在整個相關的活動樣態來講第一個當然就是進行相關海上的徵收那第二部分這海上徵收有時候連外艦通過台海我們都可以看到有中共的民兵漁船在周邊進行相關的一個勤制的收集那第二部分就是進行相關的灰色地帶的侵擾那有時候還進行所謂的假棋行動以及利用這些海上的民船"},{"start":8020.81,"end":8041.284,"text":"偽裝他的身份,甚至有時候來冒充所謂的三無漁船來進行各國海域的侵擾或是在爭議海域裡面來進行侵擾的活動那有時候還會甚至去破壞海底的電纜的這樣的一個違法的一個活動這大概是第二個樣態那第三個樣態是他們也會支應軍事上的一個演訓活動那委員剛好提出來確實沒有錯"},{"start":8042.245,"end":8061.6,"text":"在2024年的聯合歷艦跟2025年的海峽雷霆我們都有看到中共動員到民兵漁船的船隻來參與相關的軍事演訓的活動所以可能未來這種中共民兵漁船在這種支應戰訓上的一個活動會是我們後續觀察的重點"},{"start":8061.92,"end":8081.123,"text":"那這也是國際社會目前比較關注的焦點所以我們在國際情報交流合作也都有在分析這些民兵漁船運用的樣台來做比較在東海台海跟南海地區有沒有什麼共同性跟差異性好那我想我們國安局目前判斷中共的這個海上民兵他的體系"},{"start":8082.024,"end":8103.26,"text":"抱歉委員我打個岔因為剛剛忘了講數量數量部分大概有幾千艘那委員剛剛在圖上有提到東海調動數千艘漁船形成一個L型陣列那這個議題事實上在上個禮拜的業務報告機密會議當中我們有呃呈現國安局這方面的圖資跟分析那因為今天是公開會議就不適合做細部的討論"},{"start":8104.241,"end":8132.364,"text":"他的這個船隻數量應該還是會逐漸的在提升是應該 我們應該有掌握相關資料有 事實上我們相關跟海巡這邊列控的也都有幾千艘好 那另外我們國安局有沒有去判斷說目前中共的這個海上民兵他的體系是否已經成熟了那已經能夠隨時轉換為軍事資源的角色也可以配合海警海軍來執行相關的任務嗎"},{"start":8133.284,"end":8158.323,"text":"對,因為他的海上民兵已經變成是中共三合一的海上的兵力了指的是海軍、海警跟海上民兵那剛剛也跟委員報告過因為他的指揮體系裡面是由中央軍委的國防動員部來指導那平時又由海警來指揮那暫時交由各戰區來進行指揮那平時又透過這些戰訓活動來進行海軍、海警跟民兵漁船的相關的一個演練"},{"start":8158.823,"end":8177.002,"text":"所以它確實體系已經變得越來越完整我們剛才也討論到它的數量越來越多的情況之下它侵擾的可能不只是台海而是周邊的東海、南海海域也都變成是大家關注的焦點也對於區域的和平穩定造成一個很重大的危害我想現在這個中共的海上民兵也不再是單純的漁船"},{"start":8179.485,"end":8198.812,"text":"也配備有這個加固的船體還有這個也有可能有發射系統甚至還有這個北斗衛星還有通訊系統的這個專業船隻那倘若又配合使用這個隱藏匿跡的手段包括這個頻繁的關閉AIS系統或是更換這個呼號等等"},{"start":8199.572,"end":8223.355,"text":"這對於我們海巡在第一線這個監偵和辨識目標的工作上可能也會造成這個相當程度的負擔那這個部分我想請教副主委面對我們規模這麼龐大而且越來越專業化的這個海上民兵的船隻我們海巡目前在應處的裝備和對策上我們要如何來提升我們的反制能力"},{"start":8224.746,"end":8239.458,"text":"這邊特別跟委員報告那對於中共的海上民兵船我們是全部有列管的那常態性在從112年到現在曾經出現過在台灣周邊水域的民運船大概有一百多艘那這些我們都有列管"},{"start":8239.958,"end":8269.435,"text":"那剛剛蔡局長特別提到那全部的這個中國大陸的海警船大概有數千艘之多那他是有能力來做從事於剛剛這個蔡局長特別提到的部分那另外對於這個在周邊海域活動的漁船我們平常就是對越界漁船我們有採取六大的手段包括驅離扣壓然後這個留置調查等等的這些措施那有效的控管相關在台灣周邊越界的漁船的"},{"start":8273.938,"end":8298.197,"text":"像我們的這個反制能力我想在夜間還有這個海象比較惡劣的情況之下我們有沒有比較這個高等級的一個反制作用這邊跟委員包括那其實我們雷達這也取決於雷達的徵收範圍另外我們艦船艇上面也有高規格的這些徵收設備那對於海上的目標只要是在徵收範圍裡面的我們是可以全部的管控"},{"start":8299.942,"end":8324.815,"text":"那因為他不是這個民船也不是這個軍艦在海上可能也會負責做干擾的動作不會主動的來做攻擊這對我們在這個交戰或執行的這個依據上會產生什麼樣的一個困難跟委員報告 目前還沒有發現主動攻擊我們漁船的這部分倒是海警船會登檢我們的漁船 這曾經發生過"},{"start":8326.107,"end":8344.376,"text":"登檢我們的漁船對 海警船那我們要怎麼反制那這個部分我們第一個時間是那平常說我們會通知漁船碰到海警船登檢的時候那拒絕他登檢然後趕快往台灣的方向開那第二個部分就是他會通知我們海警署那我們海警署在航的艦艇會趨權趕往去做介護"},{"start":8346.57,"end":8372.135,"text":"支援就對了是那對於這個海上民兵的這種提前預警他在這個出動前有沒有什麼樣的一個徵後或是前置作業能夠讓我們再快速精準的掌握他們的意圖那這部分是不是除了鄰近的這些有盟國家即時交換情資甚至我們再進一步主動公開偵測的數據和記錄給其他有盟國家一起來這個聯訪有沒有可能"},{"start":8373.879,"end":8387.265,"text":"其實我們跟有門國家 包括我們國內的勤職單位我們的消息是非常互通 非常通暢的所以這部分我們互相提醒另外有門部分會根據證書的範圍通知我們這邊來做適度的對應跟處理"},{"start":8392.453,"end":8409.198,"text":"從剛剛的討論我們可以看出中共對於海上民兵的發展已經逐步轉型為極具戰略意義的這種侵擾手段它在整體規模和組織化的程度以及和正規軍的協同能力都在不斷的提升當中"},{"start":8410.798,"end":8435.629,"text":"這不但會影響周邊海域的一個相關國家的安全態勢也對於我方不論在平時或是暫時的這種判斷執行執法上會帶來更多的這種壓力那面對這樣的這種挑戰我們除了要提升我們的自責硬體裝備更需要建立清楚一致的一個硬處原則才能在這個不升高衝突的這種前提之下有效來防"},{"start":8436.689,"end":8464.078,"text":"守住我們這個海上的安全和國家的利益那這部分我想還是請我們的國安局還有我們的這個我們張副主委這邊齁能夠和友盟的合作緊密的交換請知讓我們在相關單位能夠及時的應處的這種情況之下來降低海上的這個民兵所帶來對我們國家的安全的一種威脅是 好 謝威以上 謝謝"},{"start":8467.917,"end":8495.908,"text":"好謝謝接下來請林楚英委員上台質詢謝主席主席有請蔡明彥蔡局長請蔡局長好謝主席林委員好"},{"start":8502.023,"end":8518.478,"text":"我想有關於這個席政會的結束之後那麼這個中國方面的官媒新華社所發布的這個有關於十項對台十點剛剛前面其實有委員已經提到了不過我們來統整一下我昨天第一時間其實就跟媒體說了這個號稱大禮包其實是回鍋菜"},{"start":8522.561,"end":8549.67,"text":"很多的這個十項當中有九項其實都是舊的只是呢送給台灣他不開心就再要回去這是最沒誠意的送法沒有人送禮是說送回去之後我開心送你但我不開心不好意思還來那對於台灣民眾都看得非常清楚但是呢在上個禮拜的此時我們都還在討論我們的國防特別條例然後甚至於呢我們舉行了一場國民黨立委全部缺席的"},{"start":8550.81,"end":8565.88,"text":"朝野協商所以以至於延後到這個禮拜也就是禮拜四或禮拜五不一定 現在還不知道但是就要看國民黨要不要出席不過這個很擺明了所謂十項的交流策略其實就是過去我們一直在講的統戰手法"},{"start":8567.441,"end":8572.963,"text":"但是如果說我們細拆來看不論是自由行或是金馬四通或是農漁產輸出或者是更多的兩岸航班包括廈門航線這個東西根據兩岸人民關係條例其實都是必須要官方對官方來做協商所以這也是為什麼"},{"start":8587.588,"end":8604.665,"text":"在席政會結束之後美國的國務院第一時間就罕見的用說希望中國也應該跟台灣的民選政府來做交流而不是只選特定的對象那麼雖然這個是故技重施是這個回鍋菜"},{"start":8605.706,"end":8623.483,"text":"吃過的用過的甚至於送過的再送台灣一次但是國安局怎麼來看他們現在明顯用這個方式把一個設好的局但是要分化台灣社會國安局這裡有對其他的這些未來可能因應要面對的部會有給予什麼樣的建議嗎"},{"start":8625.644,"end":8645.956,"text":"謝委員提到這個問題,因為今天早上媒體朋友也在關心這個問題我們認為說每次到了選舉的時候,中共都會提出所謂的會台措施來像委員所提到的這些會台措施,包括是兩岸的觀光的交流或是農漁產品的採購大概在歷次台灣選舉之前都曾經被當成一個議題,來進行相關的操作"},{"start":8648.297,"end":8676.662,"text":"那特別早上我們在討論的時候也特別提醒到中共在進行操作過程當中也會有一種所謂的區隔對待那這些所謂的會台措施會特別撕毀給特定的縣市團體產業或是個人那所以我們是在呼籲說假如中共要推動相關的兩岸的交流或經貿往來的話可能還是要尋管道來跟政府來做相關的一個接觸那必須由政府來做相關的一個評估規劃跟推動才有可能來避免到"},{"start":8677.662,"end":8705.18,"text":"這種中共類似做這種區隔對待所產生的風險跟後遺症那所以這部分我們有做一些相關分析早上也跟王定委員在說明國安會這邊也有一個跨部會的機制所以我們這邊所看到的狀況都有做跟其他部會的分享所以可能委員注意到昨天在第一時間應該各個部會在下午一兩點大概陸陸續續都有一個完整的政策說明來讓民眾更了解中共對台這種借權跟統戰的手法"},{"start":8705.646,"end":8725.077,"text":"好對於夏寶包括經濟部第一時間就有講到有關於台灣跟中國方面其實他們的經濟往下走而且的經濟GDP等等跟台灣是有很大的差異的這種會台很可能都是口會實不至但是過去其實一直以來不是我們不交流而是"},{"start":8725.817,"end":8740.37,"text":"中共以選擇性的方式的所謂的以讀不回那這個部分事實上我相信民眾有些人知道有些人不知道而現在他已經丟出了這個直球我要問的是那如果包括"},{"start":8741.911,"end":8756.937,"text":"農產品的部分農委會的態度或者是有關於看放觀光交通部的態度甚至於說有關於自由行的部分在相關的部會是不是乾脆就直球對決就問他們說我們現在要談了你們什麼時候要來談因為過去其實不是我們不談嘛是他們對我們以讀不回嘛那我們現在要不要就直接直球對決直接就說好啊來談啊"},{"start":8768.981,"end":8791.344,"text":"各部會的立場我想我不適合預舉去幫他們做說明不過整體上剛剛在跟委員說明報告的重點是中共對台這種借選統戰操作的手法面對這樣的一個手法我們特別要警示的是它有點是只跟特定的政黨來釋放這樣的訊息而避開了兩岸既有官方的一些溝通的管道"},{"start":8791.644,"end":8814.132,"text":"那假如真的中方有意願來推動這些所謂的措施的話應該要尋管道來提出他們更具體的想法那否則初步來看很多的一個說法在之前提過之後又沒有實際的一些具體的跟政府的接觸的話那感覺上就有點口惠食不吃的好 所以崔本席也是希望啦透過這個國安局這邊包括今天的質詢啦我覺得這是一個好機會啦我們就是"},{"start":8816.994,"end":8823.116,"text":"球來就打 我們就直接接球也呼籲這個中國啊既然希望要交流 要溝通 要找對對象不要呢 這個就是只找特定的對象的時候然後又說我們不交流這個部分我認為其實我是覺得是一個好的直接來溝通的機會在對等的原則之下不要預設這個什麼非得要"},{"start":8842.181,"end":8866.506,"text":"台灣是中國的一部分在對等的情況底下我覺得這是一個交流的機會另外當然就是去年的10月15號的時候我也有質詢過就是有關於灰色侵擾那麼跟今天其實這個我們的主題是切合的那麼在去年質詢之後呢其實就沒有這個所謂的比較看得到的具體的就是說這個用橡皮艇啊或什麼來度"},{"start":8868.647,"end":8882.601,"text":"偷渡進來台灣那但是呢就像今天的報告所提出來的因為八月之後受到東北季風的影響當然就比較不利於像這種所謂小橡皮艇啊或什麼進入言下之意那就是三月到八月根據報告講的"},{"start":8883.482,"end":8889.567,"text":"就是一個再次有發生所謂小艇偷渡的狀況那也就是說從現在開始又會進入一個可能的高峰期或是可能的案例出現的狀況那麼對於從去年到現在因為我們的總預算被卡關的狀況底下那麼我們在國安單位跟海巡署當中有做了哪些加強的聯繫以防這個再有同樣的案例出現呢"},{"start":8911.966,"end":8939.075,"text":"我想今天大會這邊安排這樣的一個專題報告我覺得很及時因為接下來4月到8月本來就是這種小行艇侵擾的一個主要的告風季節那大概國安局這邊有兩個部分的工作推動跟委員做個報告第一個部分就是針對已經發生的這些侵擾的這些小船我們來釐清楚背後的一個可能的動機跟他的一個可能犯罪的一個手法所以國安局這邊我們是有發布一個非常明確的清詢的"},{"start":8940.596,"end":8964.674,"text":"詢問的一些題目讓我們一線的海巡單位的弟兄在抓到這些偷渡犯之後在進行清詢跟調查的時候那個是有一個問題的問卷的那我們可以逐一透過這些問題來釐清可能犯罪的動機那第二部分我們這邊有成立專案那在查查的部分是由高檢署來指揮我們相關的國安情報機關包括海巡署警政署縣指部還有移民署"},{"start":8965.074,"end":8989.26,"text":"那過程當中我們也會分享相關的一個情資而且我們這邊也預定各種偷渡案件的通報它有通報的要項不是隨便通報而是通報的要有哪些的重點要項那這樣子才可以達到我們橫向聯繫的一個目的那另外一個部分也跟委員說明報告的海巡署在今天的書面資料也提到他們後續有一些比較新的科技裝備或是監偵設備的建制"},{"start":8990.6,"end":9005.101,"text":"那這部分我上個月才到海巡署我們有做非常密切的一個討論怎麼樣運用比較新的科技或智能化的數據管理可以對於海上的動態能夠有更進一步的掌握那這部分我們來持續提升我們的量能"},{"start":9005.538,"end":9024.8,"text":"好 但是這個又要馬好不能讓馬兒不吃草我們都知道這個總預算當中其實是有部分是在這個所謂不能用原先的也是前一年度的來做執行的那這個部分不知道會不會有影響來剩下一點時間我是不是可以請海巡署主席我請海巡署"},{"start":9027.967,"end":9047.394,"text":"局長可以先請回好 那麼剛剛這個蔡局長有特別提到的那就是我們現在在一些設備跟技術跟科技上面希望做加強監測的部分那麼海巡署在這個部分這些器材是原有的嗎還是說其實必須是編列在新的項目裡面可以沿用舊的計畫的經費來做設備的更新嗎"},{"start":9050.966,"end":9079.938,"text":"除了我們原有的這個設備升級以外我們在特別預算裡面我們獲得預算然後未來我們會加強在新式的這個岸際雷達還有黃黃線這個影像以及環海諸位型監控部分來做處理那我想這個在116年之前會全部都建置完畢那就會變成一個完整的一個整個海域裡面的監控一個一個整個一個系統那我們會把這些相關的這些收整回來這些資訊會提供給國防部跟友情來做參考"},{"start":9080.725,"end":9099.015,"text":"好不好意思我再問仔細一點您剛提到的是特別預算是放在哪裡的特別預算已經通過上次的那個國防政經特別預算裡面是好那麼在新的年度在115年度的預算當中有放進來嗎還是就是直接放在特別預算當中"},{"start":9099.295,"end":9126.263,"text":"在特別預算那115年預算有一部分是延續性的預算那也是在政策範圍裡面好那麼所以說既然有預算了那我希望接下來從3月開始從上個月開始到8月中間這個報告也特別提到了會有這樣的狀況出現的時候我希望這些設備預算跟人力上面都能夠增強我們在海防上面避免灰色侵擾是是好謝謝委員好謝謝"},{"start":9130.691,"end":9150.231,"text":"好待會王逸川委員質詢完畢以後我們休息五分鐘現在請黃仁委員上台質詢謝謝主席有請陸委會副主委副主委"},{"start":9166.465,"end":9193.099,"text":"委員好副主委好我們就討論針對政協會陸委會在今天特別召開了一個記者會強調將採取必要作為守護中華民國守護台灣的自由民主那請問一下陸委會所謂的必要作為是什麼那政協會後有發現鄭主席有任何進行違法亂紀的事證嗎"},{"start":9196.701,"end":9223.237,"text":"你說明一下我們所說的必要作為其實是針對鄭主席那天他在正席會的時候所提出來的也就是說他要建立一個兩岸的和平框架要建立 要把這個兩岸和平的制度化然後讓這個成為一個不可逆的過程"},{"start":9225.165,"end":9248.698,"text":"那這些訴求在政府方面看來它很可能已經觸及到我們兩岸關係條例的一些規定也就是說如果沒有政府授權的話任何機關團體不得和對岸涉及政治性內容的合作行為"},{"start":9250.037,"end":9276.697,"text":"然後如果沒有政府授權的話也不得簽署涉及公權力或者和政治議題有關的協議那因為我們並不確定鄭主席他講這些話到底只是單方的意願表達還是實質上會有一些什麼作為所以我們這天在新聞稿裡面講的是如果"},{"start":9282.015,"end":9287.502,"text":"這個國民黨方面他觸及到兩岸關係條例的一些"},{"start":9289.407,"end":9311.867,"text":"淨地的話所以政府就會採取必要的措施但是目前看起來目前看起來鄭主席講的抱歉我先打斷你的話我想是你們陸委會先劃靶再來設建的那我想今天我們講一個很實際的畫面我們兩岸是不是要和平當然要和平"},{"start":9312.407,"end":9335.083,"text":"我們不要跟以色列跟烏克蘭一樣的一個角色台灣是需要什麼是一個共榮共和共平和平的一個制度裡面來生活下去的我們不挑釁也不挑戰那當然我們也希望對岸對我們台灣也是一個善意和平共"},{"start":9335.785,"end":9357.723,"text":"共處的一個兩國之間的一個相處所以本席看到民進黨在政府對於維護兩岸的和平毫無進步毫無作為但又見不得其他人促進兩岸和平只好對台灣人民進行了任職作戰那用暗示的方式"},{"start":9358.484,"end":9384.218,"text":"抹紅扣帽子這麼多年來始終拿不出國民黨賣台的證據倒是民進黨的核心出了不少的共諜上次我們在這個地方也提出很多共諜案的民進黨的這一些黨員所以副主委根據陸委會的新聞稿國共兩黨主席會面將兩岸的關係國共化一中框架化"},{"start":9384.818,"end":9406.87,"text":"那請問一下ECFA是不是在一中政治前提下談的你來回答我這個問題ECFA就是兩岸之間的關於經貿方面的協議在我方的認知ECFA的談判跟一中立場或九二共識是沒有關係的但是在中共他現在是咬定說跟在九二共識下才有既然我現在要講一句話"},{"start":9414.514,"end":9434.6,"text":"第二陸委會應該在政治歷史當年兩岸如果沒有共同的政治基礎根本就不可能簽署ECFA那這個政治基礎在大陸叫做一中原則在台灣是叫做一中各表這就是一個政治基礎這也是政治的前提啊"},{"start":9435.16,"end":9459.858,"text":"那陸委會是不是認為只要在大陸認為一中架構下兩岸互動就是將兩岸關係一中化如果這樣的話是不是只要涉及中共領導人的會面就構成國共化與一中化就按照陸委會的邏輯民進黨從蔡英文到賴清德持續適用的F法"},{"start":9460.578,"end":9487.572,"text":"是否也是在延續一中的框架那現在的事實就是民進黨執政在在野黨的兩套標準一邊罵一邊享受既然X法可以在一中正直的前提下被視為禁貿那為何民間與政黨交流就一定被定為一中框架內會要不要建議總統和行政院就立即的終止X法"},{"start":9488.132,"end":9516.408,"text":"不管陸委會打不打算建議即將終止ECFAECFA在民進黨執政那已延續了十年了代表民進黨政府默認該框架在特定情況下可享受這樣的一個邏輯和民進黨對國人的認知作戰模式民進黨就是台灣最大的賣台的一個集團所以你要解釋ECFA"},{"start":9517.77,"end":9522.64,"text":"是經貿的框架還是在意中的框架下你來回答我這個問題"},{"start":9523.905,"end":9548.572,"text":"在我們政府認為ECFA當初是純粹談經貿議題但是中共的解釋是說是我們在一中的框架之下所以我們才給你ECFA才給你什麼34項農產品的免關稅等等然後只要你一偏離我就立刻把你取消所以剛剛委員講的都是對方的立場這個和台灣的立場是不同的"},{"start":9548.592,"end":9565.408,"text":"但是你們在賴政府在英文跟賴政府已經延續了十年啊到至今都在延續十年啊如果這樣的話如果這個剛剛你所說明的那你就宣布嘛終止ECFA"},{"start":9566.67,"end":9585.445,"text":"忠實ECFA進行我們現在的ECFA的會議委員我跟您報告在我們看起來ECFA跟一中框架一中前提是沒有關係的所以我們沒有必要去宣布什麼廢止但是他們認為這是很有關係的他們認為這是前提所以他們常常找麻煩"},{"start":9590.689,"end":9599.883,"text":"好不好 不要再說謊了不要再 不要再對進行人民認知作善不要再說謊好不好 請回那有請國安局"},{"start":9608.171,"end":9629.731,"text":"好 謝主席 歡迎回頭好 主席好 本席注意到國安局近年來向中共的政經情勢原判都指出中共正面臨國內外壓力政治風險上升的一個狀況以官民矛盾不斷的一個加劇那所以我們都知道一個極權政權"},{"start":9631.753,"end":9644.187,"text":"最主要的工作之一就是依賴高經濟發展的維持掙錢的一個合法性在國安局看來中共似乎浮現治理的一個危機那局長認為對我們這個是正面的訊息還是一個機會"},{"start":9650.846,"end":9663.697,"text":"跟委員做個說明跟報告確實委員引用的數據我們在上個禮拜的業務報告有特別去提醒中國大陸目前正面臨到一些治理的風險不管是在政治面進行一些黨政要員的調查、訴談"},{"start":9665.879,"end":9693.002,"text":"或是在社會面那民眾因為經濟的下滑而有一些對現狀的不滿以及在經濟的數據面即使中共的經濟數據它經過美化但是我們收整各方面的資料跟評估可以發現到它現在經濟動能真的是在弱化包括國內的消費力還有外資的投資的狀況確實是處在比較低檔的狀況那就國安局的角度那我們覺得應該在跟貴院的義務報告當中把這樣的一個趨勢做一個呈現那也做一個警示"},{"start":9693.854,"end":9717.62,"text":"所以本心認為在其實中共面臨的內外的壓力對台灣而言反而是更危險國際政治上有一個非常典型的一個理論那叫做轉移性的一個衝突那意思是當一個國家政府或領導人面臨嚴重的國內的困境的話那政權穩定受到威脅的時候他們可能會"},{"start":9718.48,"end":9735.312,"text":"故意挑起或升起其他國家的外部的一個衝擊所以以轉移國內民眾的注意力並製造這個團結的效應所以這是一個政治的求生的策略那最近中共經濟的這個"},{"start":9738.257,"end":9762.234,"text":"在近年來的一個經濟的下行下滑房地產與地方債權的問題嚴重外部又面臨美中競爭和科技封鎖的壓力這種情況中共反而更可能強化民族主義動員換句話說台灣的風險是不是下降是不是不穩定性的一個既然都會上升"},{"start":9763.368,"end":9790.618,"text":"對 謝委員剛剛的一個分析跟提醒那確實我們在注意中共的內部風險我們比較關注的也是這些議題會不會外溢到對台海安全有產生一些影響跟衝擊那尤其中共在歷史上也確實曾經在內部發生政治經濟社會不穩定的時候對外用兵這包括到有1969年的中俄邊界衝突就是在文革之後那1979年的中越邊界衝突又是在四個電現代化失敗之後"},{"start":9791.078,"end":9820.197,"text":"所以對於他現在內部的這種情勢那會不會有委員所提到的民族主義的操作我們會持續的注意那也是在上禮拜報告的時候我們特別去注意到中共的軍文關係因為這一次的大批的整肅涉及到很多上將33個員額現在只有4位上將在位那這樣子的一個軍文關係會不會有台海安全的意涵包括有些年輕的將領會不會為了要表示效忠而有在台海的相關演訓活動有更冒進的作為那這部分我們再持續的來關注"},{"start":9821.098,"end":9838.722,"text":"好,在最後請問一下局長,國安局有沒有設定具體的一個風險的一個標準型,例如當中共經濟壓力到達什麼樣的一個程度,它會採取什麼樣的一個程度,在對軍事的行動,有沒有?"},{"start":9838.942,"end":9868.282,"text":"有 這個部分我們確實有一個還蠻複雜的一個風險評估指標那不只是中共內部的政治經濟社會的形態還有包括它的對外關係以及它涉台政策的相關的一個動向還有各種的軍事活動以及在台海的複合式威脅的侵擾那我們有一個加總的一個分析的一個指標那來當成我們的一個風險判斷的模型那這部分假如委員有興趣對我們私下再跟委員做一些細部的說明好 謝謝好 謝謝委員指教"},{"start":9870.383,"end":9893.511,"text":"謝謝黃榮委員的發言請喝口水下面請馬文君委員質詢謝謝主席 麻煩請官局局長還有內政部 國防部副部長還有內政部還有會副部長"},{"start":9901.145,"end":9910.61,"text":"就今天的議題不過剛剛其實有委員關切到所以我們也希望可以在這裡提一下因為台灣去年2025年跟大陸的貿易順差是1471億美元也就是說一年從大陸賺取4兆7千萬台幣"},{"start":9919.636,"end":9924.18,"text":"這對台灣有很多的產業來說其實是非常有利的這樣子的一個生意所以在這個部分因為我們看到現在台灣面臨有一些困難比如說像現在美國對世界各國的關稅那我們談的結果是非常差的"},{"start":9944.739,"end":9948.602,"text":"包括像我們原來說我們的藥品其實是可以跟大家一樣可能是在關稅上是比較低可是後來才發現原來我們是百分之百還有我們放寬了非常多的規則不管是可能來租農業的很多其他的殘留標準或者我們自己國內本來自主性很強的現在都被彈成沒有辦法由我們自我主導"},{"start":9974.879,"end":9979.18,"text":"那另外還有我們每年編列高爾的預算想要加入CPTPP或者甚至我們甚至沒有參加WTO等等我們現在的困境其實是非常多那如果離我們最近而且我們每年可以從大陸賺取四兆七千萬的這樣子的一個錢我想對我們所有的很多產業來說其實是非常重要的所以我們希望就"},{"start":10003.504,"end":10021.774,"text":"整個大家的政府的考量也好或者我們人民的立場下去考量也好我們應該要怎麼樣去找到一個平衡點這個可能是政府應該要負的責任可是今天如果有其他的單位因為像我們跟其他國家不管日本也好或者其他國家也好我們很多"},{"start":10022.914,"end":10029.219,"text":"也會透過NGO團體也有很多透過民間的合作社像農業產業其實甚至都是民間自主性的就可以做這些相關的交流所以如果為了人民的生活好然後我們可以有更好的一個互相的交流而且可以維持我們雙方的穩定我想這都是大家要努力的目標不要把政治放得太高所以這是我們今天要特別提出來的那"},{"start":10050.793,"end":10055.378,"text":"今天其實我們主要要探討的是近期中國籍小型船隻非法侵入我國臨海之徵收漏洞檢討還有科技監偵設備它建制的進度跟精進作為我們其實主要是從過去好幾年前從台中它就不只發生一起它從台中上岸結果人家是自己去自首的或者有些是人家檢舉"},{"start":10075.276,"end":10078.879,"text":"在前年113年6月的時候在台北淡水河口也同樣發生這樣的事情那最近在3月台南的鹿耳門又發生有這樣小型船隻可以登陸的這樣子一個狀況這個不明小艇搶探台灣海岸線這個都已經不是首招所以我們才認為說這個對我們的國安會不會造成影響局長您怎麼看有這麼多這些小艇它可以如入無人之境"},{"start":10104.459,"end":10125.025,"text":"現在像三越這個它也是 本來說是漂流物那個很大耶而且它是在我們的雷達站旁邊這個雷達站還不是無人的這是有人的雷達站那居然在旁邊就可以看到這一艘船那這也不是一般的那種橡皮艇小艇耶看起來它就是船所以這怎麼會我們"},{"start":10126.906,"end":10147.467,"text":"完全沒有辦法去掌握這個部分局長就這個部分對我們國安相關的這個有沒有影響跟委員做個說明啦就我剛才在講說謝委員會在這個時間點安排這樣的一個專題報告因為接下來真的是可能中共偷渡的高峰期這大概是第一點那第二點是我們對於這些偷渡案"},{"start":10148.007,"end":10168.992,"text":"就官的角度來講他確實有凸顯到我們海防安全上有一些不足的地方那也必須要有一些更具體的測定作為那所以就官局的角度來講我們大概有分兩個部分一個部分是舊案的釐清跟盤點我剛才在跟其他委員說明舊案發生之後怎麼釐清他的動機以及他偷渡的一個軌跡跟方法"},{"start":10169.212,"end":10195.02,"text":"那怎麼樣透過數位還原以及清詢過程當中來弄清楚那第二部分就是新案的預防那怎麼樣防止再有不斷類似的新案的發生所以這部分我們也跟海巡署有在做一些必要的提醒畢竟海域安全主要還是需要海巡海岸巡防單位能夠有更好的設備跟人力的編制那這個部分我們有做一些提醒那海巡在剛剛的業務報告當中也做了他們一些相關的測驗作為"},{"start":10197.062,"end":10201.524,"text":"我們完全看不到它的策進作為而且我剛剛提到是好幾年前就已經開始發生而且它是不斷的發生顯然我們到現在還沒有辦法抓住而且越來越嚴重為什麼我們今天要特別講到這個部分因為剛剛局長提到的那個部分我們有聽到可是我們現在要探討的是台灣的海岸警衛既然"},{"start":10218.331,"end":10234.413,"text":"在冬天的時候其實我們的風力太強大像這種小型的船隻其實是不容易在海上在這邊可以在這邊航行所以其實它也是很有限的時間點如果在這麼有限的時間點我們都還沒有辦法好好的把它"},{"start":10235.094,"end":10247.96,"text":"防衛做好那我們過去我們今天看到的報告內容各個單位都只是要錢而且還一直說我們的特別預算可能需要這些錢或者我們的總預算需要這些錢我們來回顧看看我們現在到底為了這些我們花了多少錢台灣的海岸警衛到底是誰負責的我們現在看到今天的報告裡面內政部說我們負責查緝"},{"start":10261.227,"end":10290.709,"text":"然後海巡署說我們負責海上國防部說那是灰色地帶所以結果就是這個相關的責任一分為三可是我們看到他風險持續都是存在而且一而再再而三的不斷的在發生內政部的報告裡面是寫說他們大概是抓抓人要靠民眾檢舉啊巡邏來臨檢而且偷渡犯每天會電話而且三天要報到我們要問的是道路小型船隻他進入他"},{"start":10291.249,"end":10312.755,"text":"既然是國安問題因為剛剛局長的報告裡面還有你的說明裡面其實也有提到就是說其實國安局明確的指出小型船艇它不易被雷打去爭貨那另外就是海岸線它存在查查的盲區還有就是可以利用地形直接靠岸那其實我們已經都知道這些相關的狀況我們看看這幾年"},{"start":10316.537,"end":10326.728,"text":"剛剛提到的就是我們在看到那個內政部他提的那個報告裡面那像這些你說都是靠這個臨檢報到電話聯繫這個看起來今天寫的報告這是治安處理人口管理"},{"start":10333.675,"end":10351.709,"text":"根本不是防止滲透所以內政部他如果這個是國安問題他怎麼可以拿這樣的內容來外交國防委員會來做這樣的報告這一份報告從頭到尾都沒有提到即使偵測能力系統攔截能力或者任何科學數據"},{"start":10353.03,"end":10367.623,"text":"所謂的科技兼徵到底在哪裡內政部花了很多錢之前還包括我們去年通過的防衛陣性的預算裡面當時要錢的時候也說因為有很多這種小艇的這些可能會有這樣清早的一個舉動所以我們也編了很多錢那更遑論之前還買過無人機雖然無人機到最後說我們出海以後不能飛因為風太強"},{"start":10380.794,"end":10385.928,"text":"那你還後來又編了更多的錢還買所以就內政部的時候有這樣的狀況對不對"},{"start":10390.611,"end":10405.862,"text":"簡單說明就好跟委員報告內政部基本上我們基本上是負責治安的行為那治安查查行為當然也負責包括國安的後續的偵查跟調查所以我們其實不是只有單純的就是海上我想要在這裡先提醒一個市長不用再上來因為時間的關係"},{"start":10411.726,"end":10440.321,"text":"內政部負責國土防衛當你要預算的時候你告訴我們說這些相關的防衛內政部都有權責所以你要了很多的預算我們今天要討論的就是這個部分所以我們就這些相關的國土防衛你去做一些檢討我們看不到今天的報告裡面我剛剛提到的你花的預算你沒有提到偵測能力攔截能力跟任何的科學數據這是針對內政部說的接下來請教海巡署"},{"start":10441.664,"end":10463.198,"text":"海巡署在我們今天的報告資料裡面有說有311個人這個大部分是海上攔截抓到的還是進來以後才被抓的311個人是內政部的統計那我們海巡署的統計就是針對海上偷渡進來的時候我們從112年到現在是208個人其中入籍的有47個人"},{"start":10470.023,"end":10498.958,"text":"有47個人我剛剛的問題因為內政部也提到了嘛這是你們的記錄所以相關的一些作為其實你們也都是有連帶關係的可是我現在的請教的問題是說他是進來以後才被抓還是在海上攔截的時候抓到的不管你是200多個還是300多個有一部分是在海上抓的一部分是在陸上抓的那大部分都是在離島地區抓的"},{"start":10499.858,"end":10525.458,"text":"離島 所謂離島是金門 馬祖跟澎湖所以其實也都是上岸以後才抓到的沒有 有的是在海上查因為我們的雷達針說不上因為金馬的地區的重症很短那進來以後就等於快靠岸了所以我們在岸邊等他就直接逮捕或者是用巡防艇去直接逮捕所以就今天我們看到的部分因為你之前在台北淡水河口已經發生過相關的事情台中也發生過那這一次在鹿耳門"},{"start":10526.298,"end":10529.58,"text":"發生這個小艇 而且你們剛開始還說這是漂流物那麼大的一個漂流物看起來就是船你會把它當成漂流物 後來才發現是通緝犯去搭乘的所以其實這個部分我們要討論的是台灣的海岸線有多少比例即使是可以偵測的我們通篇都沒有看到我們檢討雷打覆蓋率"},{"start":10549.494,"end":10553.196,"text":"夜間監控能力小型船隻辨識率沒有數字就沒有能力因為我們看到它不斷的發生你們已經要過很多錢你們之前像在很多的那個無人機監控預算就有數十億相關的單位還包括內政部還有岸際監控系統也花大錢去擴建反無人機系統的分級還有AI辨識失效"},{"start":10577.068,"end":10604.144,"text":"其實還要人工double check其實現在最近發生的事情我們花了很多錢可是它不斷的造成這樣的一個狀況小艇還是船隻還是直接進到我們的所有的海岸上面這邊跟委員說明其實我們現在就是因為前面發生這麼多案子那在雷達因為它有物理限制所以我們在偵查上面本來就有它的侷限那為了改善這些所以我們有在特別預算裡面有編列了"},{"start":10605.724,"end":10623.473,"text":"284億那中間有一大部分的是在做聯合情增針的這個部分那同時也防堵這個小型目標來進到我們國內來那我們現在正在做但是這案子還在進行當中還沒做完整那我相信我們整個做完成以後這個問題就會大幅改善"},{"start":10623.993,"end":10629.539,"text":"大幅改善是是您說的喔是因為其實在淡水河口事件以後不要說特別預算來你們之前已經編了預算那時候在預算上面你們也花了錢強調要補強包括安靜監控系統無人機的監偵還有科技徵收設備還有紅外線熱像椅這在之前的預算就有不是在去年的這個特別預算"},{"start":10647.757,"end":10672.833,"text":"國土防衛徵信裡面因為這是涵蓋預的問題所以我們在特別預算特別把整個剛剛那個委員提示的部分有缺漏部分那盲區的部分我們這次全部把它補齊全部都會把它補齊所以其實以後就不會再發生像這樣子的一個小型船隻可以進到我們的國土上面領土上面然後可以如入無人之境就不會發生這樣的事情我不敢跟委員保證百分之百但是會降到最低"},{"start":10677.276,"end":10700.949,"text":"什麼叫降到最低機率降到最低所謂的機率是怎麼樣因為如果這個都還是有人抓到的同樣都是小型船隻而且都是低可偵測的目標而且他還是可以持續靠岸如果到現在你們說花了這麼多的錢數十億甚至百億而且還有聯合勤監偵國防部也在這裡因為國防部的雷達我們說他沒有辦法偵測"},{"start":10701.869,"end":10706.674,"text":"小型的目標物所以我們還花了錢去建置像熱像椅紅外線等等那如現在還加上AI的辨識如果還有無人機你們花了這麼多錢告訴大家我們需要更多更多的錢然後如果他只是降低到現在你也不敢說可以有多好的效果"},{"start":10721.331,"end":10733.041,"text":"我覺得這個可能還是大家後續要探討的今天我們主要要談的是就這個部分因為我們看到的是你在這個部分內政部他負責的是人進來之後然後海巡署他是負責海上巡邏或者海岸的部分那國防部他負責戰爭以後才介入因為在灰色襲擾嘛你如果敵人在"},{"start":10745.572,"end":10754.014,"text":"所以我們看到是可嫌疑的像這樣子的一個對象其實他在進入之前是好像沒有辦法可以管跟我們報告那個全世界每個國家可以全部百分之百防堵偷退我們沒有說要百分之百可是當你們一直持續在發聲的時候而且也是非常離譜我剛剛提到的是你這個是有人的雷達站的旁邊他就已經上來了"},{"start":10772.458,"end":10775.879,"text":"然後你剛開始還是告訴大家說這是漂流物所以顯然這資訊的掌握或者你們整體的掌握你今天不是在盲區今天是在你的雷達站旁邊而且你的錢已經花了預算已經用了可是還是沒有達到這樣的目的然後你們還跟大家說我們還要更多的錢"},{"start":10791.943,"end":10816.616,"text":"因為我們不知道多少錢才夠我們沒有要求百分之百可是你不斷的台灣才多大人家很多其他的國家它的海岸線這麼長它的國土面積這麼大人家還是有做到你今天如果跟我們要了那麼多的錢而且還說特別預算的錢要過總預算的錢要過那你又沒有辦法把它做好那怎麼有辦法對我們人民交代這也是我們的職責剛剛瑋瑜講的那個雷達旁邊那個就是雷達的盲區"},{"start":10820.638,"end":10823.06,"text":"那個地面板就是雷達的盲區你有人對不對我們有人但是人在盲區我們發現時間很短雷達的盲區你今天人在那裡然後你都看不到他不是很小你看看照片上面的這個我們所謂的盲區今天如果你在偷渡飯可以上來或者我們可以這樣子都沒有發現到人"},{"start":10844.639,"end":10849.081,"text":"你會說它是漂流物表示你們剛開始是沒有發現到人所以你們用這樣子的一個方式去處置這一個事件那後來才發現有人我們今天跟你討論的不是這個部分而也盲區的部分我們也很清楚的知道可是我們希望你們就這個部分其實不是只要錢因為你們已經花了很多的錢我們要的是它的效果如果你不斷的在重複的發生像你們之前買的那個無人機其實"},{"start":10874.452,"end":10887.485,"text":"包括有一些你說跟美國合作到最後是拉脫維亞的像這樣子然後事情還是不斷的發生可是你買的都是同一家同一個品牌那到底是人的問題還是你的採購的問題這個部分還有時間的關係提供一些相關的書面資料"},{"start":10894.372,"end":10897.074,"text":"怎麼樣有精進的作為因為我們今天看不到大家提到的這個部分我們要的是大家可以怎麼樣去精進改善然後我們的錢應該要花在什麼樣的地方這個才是我們今天探討的重點而不是你說我們需要更多的錢"},{"start":10910.205,"end":10927.723,"text":"然後我們可以做到以後會什麼樣的結果不知道這不是我們今天要討論的一個重點所以就這些部分我們希望可以特別提出來那國安單位既然災傷相關的這些我們可能應注意而未注意或者我們做的不夠好的部分應該從哪裡去強化我們也請國安單位可以去深入的"},{"start":10931.887,"end":10955.241,"text":"再去探討然後再去做一些修正那剛剛其實也有委員提到利用一點點時間有在講水雷的部分與其要因為我們自己也沒有經驗就水雷的部分到底它多智慧我們不曉得因為都是自己講的而且都是實驗數據如果我們的防空飛彈"},{"start":10956.482,"end":10985.705,"text":"可以做實戰的一些驗證反而這個可能比較有效不要在媒體啊或者這些內宣外宣說我們的防空飛彈做得有多強多強甚至有洩密的這樣的疑慮可是他並沒有實戰的一些相關的驗證資料也不是不要說只要錢這個部分我相信副部長應該聽得懂我們講的內容還有國安局我們就這個部分希望也可以提供一些相關的建議"},{"start":10988.687,"end":11014.328,"text":"好不好謝謝謝謝馬委員的質詢各位首長請先回座喝口水下一位我們請王逸川委員質詢好我們請國安局海巡署跟內政部謝謝請國安局海巡署和內政部謝謝"},{"start":11017.884,"end":11042.681,"text":"好 謝謝主席 王委員好好 局長請問一下我們今天這個題目啊這些小艇你判斷會越來越多 還越來越少我們不排除它還會再發生啦這也是為什麼我們一直在跟海巡在討論怎麼樣來提升我們的一些應處的一些措施好 那我接著請教海巡署啊你如果看到這些船啊 這些小艇啊你看到後一步是什麼看到它之後"},{"start":11046.343,"end":11068.985,"text":"看到這小艇在跑的時候,你們的下一步是什麼?我們雷達偵測到以後,我們會去做必要的識別然後我們派遣情務,然後線上艇就直接去攔查然後在岸基部分,如果攔查...你是把他抓走,還是把他抓?抓,因為我們要去辨識啊因為我不曉得這小艇到底是我們自己的漁船,還是對方的漁船抓到了嗎?"},{"start":11070.171,"end":11097.551,"text":"抓到以後就按照程序來做處理 扣押然後扣押 留置調查那交給內進部我們現在的是要辨別你是非法入侵的漁船部我們就按照兩岸人民關係條例來做處理你那個魚如果是什麼 不管偷渡什麼 你如果抓到就都交給內進部嘛我們現在按照兩岸人民關係條例來做處理如果是漁民部分是我們做留置調查那如果是偷渡的部分當然是回歸到留置調查要讓他們吃便當嗎要"},{"start":11101.328,"end":11123.503,"text":"他就不許來跟你吃便當就好了我們調查了一段時間啦,就是留置調查,然後畢竟要做裁判你怎麼不把他關照就好因為他違法,不是國內的法律,當然要逮捕,因為他是違法行為啊啊怎麼會呢,逮捕之後啦逮捕之後就留置調查,然後...不然之後現在報告裡面,不想說不然之後他們都要投奔自由的嚮往台灣民主的"},{"start":11125.366,"end":11150.874,"text":"這是他的說法,但是我們會根據他的這就是中國人不吃小孩啦,一群臭小孩啦抓到就說要逃犯自由,不吃小孩啦抓到就說我們是來騷擾的啦,我們就要你測試的啦抓到就多乖乖的,必求,沒有啦,我們是要逃犯自由,臭小孩啊這種就要處理啊,每天在火神坊大人會人會,你們在海巡署會皮皮板面"},{"start":11152.298,"end":11163.284,"text":"這樣會不會通因為我們是按照相關的法律來做然後這一部分只要是偷渡不過我們是依給地檢處去做後續的調查後續的偵辦不是啊 他不是偷渡他就是來亂的啦"},{"start":11167.413,"end":11179.696,"text":"我們國內有完整的法治啊,我們就按照法律來處理它他們一直在亂,一天來給你一天去十台來亂他們來十台,我照理啊,我照法律啊你們的戰力就整個都耗損一下對不對我們海巡網這個能力只要發現有能力來做處理,沒問題沒問題,來國安局,你跟海巡署沒問題"},{"start":11193.722,"end":11205.546,"text":"委員比較擔心的是會有這種大規模啦 而且品質很高的一個簽名沒有大規模啦 他就直接把你攬下去 把你攬下去啦 你就每天都在批本命啦 啊如果早期吃一排就都要臭皮啦早期吃一排就說 好 我要登陸了啦 中華民國的台灣的海巡有夠弱的啦 我們剩下錢來開一排啦 怎麼樣"},{"start":11216.866,"end":11239.377,"text":"所以這也是為什麼我們要建立一些跨部會的聯訪跟通報的機制我們也是從很多的案例當中做一些改善知道他在那裡嘛 去找到他啊找他之後再開扁東西這樣會不會通不過就海防的立場來講當然是只要有這種違法的行為真的就是要逮捕啦那依照我們的法律來進行審判那他還必須要在這邊服刑所以如果上一大堆來服刑"},{"start":11244.719,"end":11267.358,"text":"對啊,依照法律我們就是要處理啊,你不能夠做事不管阿姨,我們就一直給他服刑就對了你一天兩天一百個,你就一百個都給他服刑就對了對,以目前來講要依照法律阿姨,這種的身份很假啊對,但還有一個可能是拉長我們的警戒的範圍啦那盡量不要讓他... 阿這你來注意啦對啊,這我們來注意因為他以前就比較大隻的,你雷達找到的,現在衝這種的"},{"start":11271.158,"end":11278.66,"text":"都會耗損我們,有時候他幫你做一些認知作戰,我們就要看他,我們就要對他淋水,好,這樣失敗整個台灣人說,愛純就這樣失敗,這樣都沒發現對我們的海巡署,這個威信應用算很大,對我們的國安的應用也很大民眾會覺得說,這愛純到底是在說什麼,愛純要開一百,開一百我們都不知道,那一百到裡面還要炒大"},{"start":11301.002,"end":11326.421,"text":"國安局我覺得這個柯林您要特別注意因為這種的喔對他們來說興奮吃雞啦對啦他們人也不用興奮啊 人那麼多人不用興奮再來捏便當還可以臭皮對 假如後續海巡的這一方面的徵收技術能量有提升的話啦那可能是盡量不要讓他進階到我們的岸際啦那這個接下來會在我們的相關的演習有這一條嘛"},{"start":11327.819,"end":11331.469,"text":"會 揮袋的清掃本來就是我們關注的一個重點我現在說的小庭接下來會有這種演習"},{"start":11335.563,"end":11346.906,"text":"這部份應該海巡也有做一些剛剛署長也在說明報告當中有提到有針對我們的情緣做必要的一個教育這種可能臨港有什麼演習的時候叫海有關的演習這種可能要特別納入因為這看起來有可能他們現在說什麼去淘寶要一些不好的東西當過來的東西就是爛,叫一些草薯,不太好人會人會,再來捏便當的"},{"start":11362.413,"end":11380.115,"text":"他們這個身分算假喔所以這我們可能要特別注意一下國安局長請教一下阿強阿曾發布十大毀台措施嘛要毀滅台灣的十大措施嘛有沒有哪一條是你意外的"},{"start":11381.714,"end":11408.002,"text":"呃 基本上 我剛才在跟其他委員說明啦大概到我們選舉之前都會有這些所謂的對待錯失哪一條你很意外對 那我要講的重點是大概之前都有提過啦以前都有提過所以沒有什麼意外對 大概都是他如果要選一個最意外的你國安局長你不好意思說你如果真的說意外你可能沒辦法做局長裡面有一條我最關心他說金門、廈門共用機場"},{"start":11412.937,"end":11436.385,"text":"今天梁文傑副主委接受媒體問的時候,他說太隆重,不知道那是什麼意思,說了回來,好沒關係局長,你看看事實上那個祥安機場,我們真的是沒有意外,是因為它本來在今年年底就要落成所以在它的機場興建過程當中,我們都有在注意它相關的動態另外,它也有做一些宣傳,對"},{"start":11437.165,"end":11458.645,"text":"還有做一些宣傳包括機場要開放一些攤位給台商來承租包括鼓勵我們外離島民眾運用祥安機場當國際機場所以他這部分的操作在之前中共的官宣媒體就已經有在進行那這一次只是有提出來重新再講一次你現在如果是說我現在看到一些民意代表不知道是什麼是替人說的還是什麼"},{"start":11460.246,"end":11483.359,"text":"他說因為金門,這個地方常常在吃農藥啦所以有時候飛機沒辦法降落金門,整個停到廈門啦這你國安局看還會不會通對啊,所以剛剛各位說明的是,這比較像是一個統戰的操作你說我們台灣對松山北的金門嘛,我們站成本很多飛機的嘛現在說金門就沒辦法降落,我看這幫利農的,我看這幫華信的,沒有辦法直接降落廈門啦"},{"start":11489.984,"end":11512.722,"text":"這樣會不會通沒有 這還是不太可行啦因為他也沒有跟我們有做過相關的討論委員看到應該是他在統戰過程當中釋放的一些訊息啦來讓台灣內部社會來針對這些議題不知道怎麼回應或是內部出現一些不同的意見所以這個問題事實上從大概一年多前就已經有在操作有關襄陽機場的問題那國安局的態度是什麼"},{"start":11514.295,"end":11530.849,"text":"那基本上我們認為香安機場在落成之後那不管是一些航線或是管制區還是要透過管道跟我們政府來做溝通跟討論所以他認定也是國際機場嗎他的機場他定位是在國際機場不是啦,一定是國際機場要給你開放一個叫做台灣的什麼航站啊"},{"start":11534.059,"end":11560.702,"text":"他現在確實在操作的宣傳上有特別提到同等待遇啦也就是讓我們外離島的民眾那在使用這些機場或中共的交通設施可以跟中國大陸的民眾一樣所以他整體後面有一個統戰策略的包裝那國安局的角度我們當然就是來揭露中共這樣的一個做法讓國人在討論的時候比較知道中共背後的一個政治的地圖你一定要提醒交通部跟民安局這不是在開玩笑的"},{"start":11561.262,"end":11572.25,"text":"對,有這坐飛機騎新聞機騎護照是沒用的這雙山機場要出門坐的行車也沒用你不可以在國內行車的車位,什麼下來變一個黑門,在裝車的你如果這樣做,像我們這種去阿京阿化要乘坐的那種我現在如果坐一間房子,飛機拿回去下門我就下車他現在說沒辦法降落,降落來下門"},{"start":11590.12,"end":11610.395,"text":"所以這國安局要提醒交通部局、民營局國內機場就是國內機場國際機場就是國際機場不能用奇奇怪怪的理由來用所以接下來這幾個重要的題目你今天也有說他們這阿強水池會收回去我們說要開放這個,我們又說農產品上面有糖,它又不行所以這個國安局要加油,還有海巡署"},{"start":11618.101,"end":11618.661,"text":"我們先休息五分鐘"},{"start":12306.923,"end":12311.245,"text":"好 我們繼續開會接下來請王安祥委員上台質詢謝謝主席有請這個國防部副部長還有這個海巡署請國防部副部長以及海巡署"},{"start":12327.611,"end":12354.29,"text":"我想《紐約時報》這個報導之後其實國人都非常關心今天這個議題我想這個時候做這個專報其實非常重要我有再讀到這次的報告裡面其實國防部跟海巡署都有提到這個事情我知道因為不同部會他對於這些多元的情資他要做這個徵收的目的都不太一樣"},{"start":12355.972,"end":12375.43,"text":"因為兩個單位其實都有講到這個部分就是說資訊量很大然後我們需要用一些比較科技的方法就像AI這樣子因為那天其實國安局有跟國安局長做了一下意見的交換所以今天主要就是針對國安部跟海軍署這邊有很多類似的部分"},{"start":12376.371,"end":12404.369,"text":"就是剛剛其實前面我也有提到就是有關於這個所謂的整合啦不曉得這個整合的部分是不是先請這個副部長就是說有一些也許是海巡那邊像剛剛他們用一些紅外線的一些資料那怎麼樣統合做一個偵搜或群搜的一個工具首先那個跟委員報告就是說我們的國軍岸基雷達跟海巡岸基雷達基本上是有一個分工的"},{"start":12405.217,"end":12430.47,"text":"那我們主要負責12海浬以外比較大型中型的目標所以禁岸其實不是我們的範圍但是我們的雷情跟海巡的這個徵收系統是互通的所以我們看到的我們也會讓海巡通知因為現在假設要交給AI來處理可以減少人員的一些負荷所以我覺得這個可能整合的部分會比過去"},{"start":12431.01,"end":12447.791,"text":"用人工的方式要來得更重要包括他那個情資的判讀啦或者是他哪些訊號要怎麼做橫向的連結啦我覺得可能過去也許沒有這個問題因為人會做主觀的判斷嘛不過現在AI可能就是有關於這個所謂的整合的部分可能特別重要那是不是請海巡署這邊"},{"start":12448.772,"end":12472.404,"text":"再為說明一下就是有關於這個整合就你們那邊的情資跟委員報告我們海巡組雷情的整個海面偵測的這個資料都有跟國防部同步分享那國防部的海情部分也會在我們的雷情上面呈現所以我們在海面步伐管理上是銜接沒有漏洞的部分"},{"start":12472.884,"end":12496.573,"text":"另外國防部因為他主要是負責軍事的部分所以他還是以中大型的目標為主那我們海巡署是以中大型以外的中小型的目標為主那我們兩個群之是互通的所以我們在雷情的那個畫面上是可以看到國防部所有的海巡的目標那國防部也可以看到我們整個雷情上面的所有的海巡署的目標"},{"start":12497.513,"end":12514.759,"text":"是…我想這樣是沒有什麼問題我想大家應該都看得到只是我剛剛說過因為我們今天開這個專報基本上就是因為這兩件事情好像越來越模糊到底是軍還是民搞不太清楚到底是誰他到底是帶有什麼樣的任務過來的其實常常搞不清楚但我想其實可能大家都看得到"},{"start":12515.399,"end":12536.429,"text":"我的意思是說是不是要建立一個機制那到底是要做怎麼樣的處理我覺得這個非常重要尤其在你們報告裡面有講到就是要被動轉成主動主動就不像過去看到只是看到那個畫面而已看到什麼事情在做什麼樣的處理也許要更有一些比較advanced就是更前面的一些舉措"},{"start":12537.87,"end":12556.27,"text":"因為我們知道過去這些很多他都會把那個IS關掉然後造成我們很多探討上的困難不知道這個部分這個海巡署這邊有什麼因應的方案嗎各位委員包括那有關這個海綿目標管理的部分就是我們現在發現以後都會標定它的目的"},{"start":12556.61,"end":12581.629,"text":"那另外剛剛委員特別提到關閉AIS因為我們現在有另外一個系統可以去偵測暗傳系統也就是說他從出港以後然後就開始關閉AIS那我們可以從他的軌跡就可以查證他的後面的相關的軌跡也可以推斷他的位置所以這個部分特別跟委報我們現在有好幾個系統在做這個所謂的剛剛委員提到關閉AIS暗傳系統的部分"},{"start":12581.809,"end":12597.543,"text":"所以這個部分其實在徵收上面它相對一部分是彌補我們現在雷達徵收上面的盲點所以就我今天提出這個資訊的最主要原因因為AI既然用AI資訊量要大而且要正確不管它有沒有做什麼樣的"},{"start":12599.364,"end":12621.316,"text":"預先的一些舉措那我這邊有收集到一個新聞資料就是今年四月的時候有一個漁船我們基本上在發現它有一些狀況有點奇怪不過後來說看到最後的結果是因為它上面裝了一些中國的這個發泡器是不是我不曉得針對這個這是一艘我們在發現以為我們是它是發泡中國的AIS"},{"start":12627.939,"end":12644.857,"text":"但是我們的徐鳳町到現場以後發現它是東港級的漁船那上面的 對不起 琉球系的漁船那上面的裝載的那一個發泡器是魚巨的AIS就是我們現在有很多岩層吊啦 包括地庫啦所以我剛剛一錄下來就讓我有點擔心啦"},{"start":12647.319,"end":12663.535,"text":"像這種事情我知道你們好像後面有做了一些訪查我想現在的狀況怎麼樣後續應該要怎麼樣來處理把這個可能這樣子的因為它魚巨用的AIS沒有發射魚船的AIS如果關閉或者是尾帽或者什麼它是有發射的"},{"start":12663.695,"end":12691.346,"text":"但是有魚巨的部分是沒有法則這部分我們已經建立主管機關漁業署這邊來做改進那現在另外一部分就特別跟尾巴我們現在很多的定制漁網延伸掉他通通會用AIS去標定他的位置因為他放了以後人就離開所以他就從AIS去所以說不會再有這樣的狀況因為我知道因為我們在那個那個所謂雷達上面最怕看到看到的搞不清楚到底是敵人還是自己"},{"start":12691.906,"end":12718.119,"text":"我覺得這個是一個很麻煩的一個現象所以那個我們現在那個Marine Traveling的網站裡面去看然後如果各位如果有機會去上去看它就很多AIS的訊號其實它有一大部分是漁網漁具的AIS但是現在因為中國的AIS比較便宜所以我們現在有很多的國籍的漁船會去採用AIS所以這個有辦法把它排除掉嗎或是請他們我看看你們"},{"start":12718.699,"end":12744.431,"text":"我們會去點選就是比較可點選因為漁網漁具的AIS的前面的標碼跟我們漁船用的注射用的那個AIS是不一樣的那另外跟委員包現在有一個比較嚴重的狀況就是AIS可以更換可以取代可以變造 偽造對 所以就是我現在說的這個如果我們現在要用AIS嘛如果INPUT的這一段的資訊是錯誤的我想後面再怎麼我們再怎麼精進啊"},{"start":12745.191,"end":12765.967,"text":"或是買多少有算力的東西或多少軟體可能效果都不會太好因為AI的發展會越來越進步只要我們的資料庫夠大夠多那AI判讀都越精準所以我們現在倒進到AI裡面去的資料庫我們現在慢慢一直在建立在充實"},{"start":12767.148,"end":12785.2,"text":"另外跟委員報告所有的海面目標我們對於台灣有威脅譬如說是中資的旋翼輪啊譬如說這一個這個那個後滾輪啊這些我們都有列管註記只要進到台灣水域他就會自動告解所以署長應該下次不會再有這個誤認或錯認的狀況出現吧還是說還是有可能會發生"},{"start":12788.522,"end":12813.017,"text":"因為他發報的時候我們不太清楚嘛所以我們還是會覺得很可疑他很靠近那在我們的聯合營業區裡面我們還是會派人去辨識啦所以還是請署長這件事情要keep in mind就是把他當作一些非常重要的事情因為我想我們今天在討論這件事情的時候這個是非常重要的事情好不好那請那個署長可以先我們請部長一下"},{"start":12815.841,"end":12831.066,"text":"因為我上次一直在很關心軍職人員照顧小孩的部分那些有特別質詢中副那些有特別跟我做一些報告不過我再把我的問題再確認一下"},{"start":12832.046,"end":12859.041,"text":"因為這個很多人跟我反映其實這個我們比較care的應該是拖音那個部分就是0到2歲那個部分就很多軍職人員我上次主席的時候有特別提到就常常夫妻兩位其實都可能都是所以我們現在這個在不同的這個單位我們其實都在為了這個少子女化在做很多努力我當然也希望就軍方這邊來說也可以給這些軍職人員做一些這個實質上最拖音的這些支持"},{"start":12859.821,"end":12880.303,"text":"因為我們上次有去詢問國防部現在看起來這幾個提供我們的資訊大概都還是二到六歲以後的所以我還是強調希望能夠強化所謂的拖音的部分就是零到二分這個是不是請副長稍微大概說一下因為後面可能直接來不及"},{"start":12881.547,"end":12895.466,"text":"好 鮑偉仁這個我手上沒有特別關於拖音的資料不過您講這個問題我們回去研究一下我再回覆您好不好我知道現在的確我們主要是兩到六歲配合政府政策這部分我們是有"},{"start":12896.46,"end":12912.24,"text":"對 所以因為很多後面這個因為現在大家其實都不是兩歲以後常常都是更小然後是因為軍職人員其實他散佈在很多我們這個不同甚至是離島我們都覺得這個可能他的資源配備更不足"},{"start":12912.941,"end":12933.151,"text":"那沒有關係 因為今天可能時間上不是很來得及因為我們有收集到一些資料那我們還是因為我原來都在勞政那邊我希望給這些軍事人員在工作上 因為我們軍人也是工作給他們更多的協助讓他們都願意生小孩讓我們可以一起來解決這個小子女化的問題謝謝委員關心好 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":12939.605,"end":12943.509,"text":"接下來我們請沈博洋委員上台質詢好謝謝主席那先有請這個海委會這個張副防制部主委海巡署謝謝請副主委"},{"start":12968.485,"end":12979.454,"text":"因為前陣子這個習政會在訪中前一天有中國軍艦的這個維台那我今天時間因素我可能就不問國防部說這個相關的一些訊息"},{"start":12980.655,"end":12985.58,"text":"但因為這個國台辦在這個4月8號的時候他有說這個海警巡護兩岸漁民那這個對我來講這個從我們2024年開始金門那一次的事件之後其實這種常態的騷擾已經變得越來越多那他們有可能想要把它常態化我認為說這可能也是屬於他們想要擴張法律權力的一環"},{"start":13005.599,"end":13028.487,"text":"所以從4月8日開始,這個海巡署對整件事情的處理跟掌握大概是如何?是否可以跟國人說明一下?從113年棟嶺二世案件以後,中國海警常態性的在我們金門跟麻竺做這個常態性的繞島的巡查"},{"start":13029.167,"end":13058.687,"text":"那每個月有四次會進到我們的限制水域裡面那這個部分我們全程都有掌握跟監控另外它進到我們的限制水域我們會以一對一的方式用水溫瓶把它驅離然後幹到這個外面那這個現象也持續到現在一直都是這樣那我們全程有監控那這一次所發生的就是從因為就從那個2024一直到現在嘛它一直持續不斷地做那就這一次它也沒有停止這樣的事情是嗎"},{"start":13059.627,"end":13086.428,"text":"沒有沒有所以這個就是說對我們來講不管是他們這個軍艦的一個騷擾或者說像他們的漁船的一個聚集又包含像這樣的他們稱所謂的他們海警要巡護這些騷擾其實一直都沒有停止那看起來並沒有釋出善意那我覺得這個對我們來講跟這個國家之間的交往其實應該是要打上一個很大的問號那接下來我想要請這個梁副主委請梁副主委 謝謝"},{"start":13091.8,"end":13092.146,"text":"請副主委"},{"start":13106.013,"end":13122.746,"text":"這一次的這個習政會當然我覺得很重要的一個框架就是說這個堅持九二共識然後多了這個反對台獨這幾個字眼那當然現在我所比較擔心的事情就是現在當然這一個所謂國共之間的框架看起來其實跟這個之前的這一個"},{"start":13123.685,"end":13145.687,"text":"蓮湖並沒有什麼太大的差別看起來沒有什麼實質的進展但是如果說今天像這樣的一個框架它已經由這樣的一個會面決定之後比如說我們來看我們的立法院有沒有可能比如說我們去修發展觀光條例又或者說我們去動這個離島建設條例又或者說和平協議的話其實最主要是兩岸條例的修法"},{"start":13146.328,"end":13170.133,"text":"那我們這邊會不會發生這個不知道但至少我們現在看到已經發生的就是比如說我們的國防這個預算現在還實質上被卡在這裡嘛總預算其實也是那像這一些呢實質上去弱化我們台灣國防跟國安的事情這個是實質上已經發生了那我現在比較擔心的就是因為他們現在就是發出了這個所謂會談的這個政策"},{"start":13171.613,"end":13192.725,"text":"那我相信梁副主委一定很熟悉之前這個所謂的藍八線就是他們想要只跟這個藍營執政的縣市去發展不管是相關的農產品的交流啦或者說中客的交流啦等等那我們現在對於這一種因為畢竟我們跟中國之間的交流照理說這個都是由中央政府或者由中央政府授權來做"},{"start":13193.966,"end":13211.62,"text":"那如果說他們現在漸漸的開始由地方政府然後根據他們現在這個會台措施然後自行的不管是簽訂相關的合約啦或者說在根本沒有合約的狀況之下時時就已經展開了進展這個對我們中央政府來講我們要如何因應"},{"start":13213.937,"end":13236.868,"text":"其實委員所講的這個現象本來就已經在發生中了譬如說台東跟對岸去做一個特別的協議有關於鳳梨釋迦這個部分然後指定哪些包裝廠或是哪些農場它的鳳梨釋迦是可以過去的"},{"start":13240.45,"end":13267.306,"text":"所以大概類似的事情都會發生不過現在的狀況可能我們台灣的狀況可能跟過去來講我覺得是有一些比較進步的地方也就是說譬如說以鳳梨世家來講雖然當初談成了這個協議但到現在恢復的量不大那為什麼因為第一個中國方面的經濟不好內需不強"},{"start":13268.376,"end":13294.597,"text":"他現在的很多國營企業他以前都是叫直接叫國營企業來買這個台灣的某一個地方的農產品等於是大家這個要一個Quota要一個責任制他現在現在也很困難做這些事情那包括那你說像鳳梨世家現在在雲南在海南島他的整個種植的面積都比台灣大了五倍以上不止所以他現在種植的種植的又便宜其實"},{"start":13296.865,"end":13300.66,"text":"台灣的鳳梨思佳其實在那邊已經競爭力是不高了"},{"start":13301.837,"end":13327.428,"text":"那所以對於農產品這一塊我們倒不是特別擔心而且我覺得農民這幾年來已經學到教訓了那所以這個部分的話我們覺得還好也就是說總的看起來這一次的這個實相的所謂的實相的會台措施大概都是過去的東西然後重新包裝一下新的東西不多"},{"start":13328.428,"end":13340.75,"text":"但是他換到的東西確實是很多等於是用一碗甜不辣換到了一盅佛跳牆這個佛跳牆是什麼這個就是整個台灣最大在野檔"},{"start":13343.052,"end":13366.27,"text":"到了北京然後在政治上面做出一些承諾然後譬如說什麼和平框架等等這些在政治上做出一些承諾然後向國際社會發出了在我們看來是一個錯誤的訊息譬如說你說我們不要外力的介入或是等等這樣子這些說法都會影響到台灣在國際社會上面的人家對你的看法"},{"start":13366.81,"end":13390.532,"text":"以及人家對你一旦有事的時候他們到底要怎麼對待你因為你的最大在野黨已經說過不要外力介入那人家要怎麼幫忙你或是軍售上面人家為什麼還需要賣武器給你這些事情我覺得這個是北京這一次宣傳上的最重大的勝利但是他付出的所謂的利多"},{"start":13391.826,"end":13411.607,"text":"就是這麼一點點而已對我覺得這個就是當然是一個算是加強版的這個所謂的九二共識那他給國際事務的訊息就剛剛跟梁副主委提到的其實是非常的不妙那另外呢剛剛有提到就是說這一個農產品確實我們的農民其實已經學到這個相關的養套殺的這個課程在之前都經歷過了"},{"start":13413.088,"end":13436.919,"text":"我們現在其實說真的我們非中國之類的外銷其實已經佔了四五十億那其實對中國來講是一直在往下降已經降到十億以下了所以照理說我們的農民知道這件事情但是宣傳上他們還是一直會不斷的講說你這個世家你這些世家到底是不是反對台獨是不是有支持一國兩制這個對他們來講才是重點能不能驗出什麼蟲等等之類的"},{"start":13438.88,"end":13456.808,"text":"對於當然說我們的農民的警覺性我覺得希望這個陸委會也還是能夠加強協助我們農委會去跟我們的農民來做宣導我覺得這樣才是一個但第二個我現在比較擔心的就是觀光因為觀光一直以來也是他們就是適合他們拿來做宣傳的工具跟農產品類似那"},{"start":13457.348,"end":13477.7,"text":"這一個所謂的自由行因為中國的觀光客他就算要來到這一邊呢他其實也要向其實戶口所在地的公安機關出入進去辦理這個所謂的大陸居民往來台灣這個通行證嘛個人旅遊的簽註嘛所以像這種最終可以操縱誰過來這可能還是跟中國的公安是有一定程度的關聯"},{"start":13479.001,"end":13495.217,"text":"那這個對我們來講是一定程度的風險就是說對方的宣傳當然是一直不斷的強調可以為台灣帶來利益雖然到最後都是一條龍那利益也是回歸到中國去那另外一個對我們來講很大的一個風險是他的公安介入公安介入他來的人他又會有另外一個程度的風險"},{"start":13496.098,"end":13509.143,"text":"那針對這件事情我們現在就跟我剛剛提到的南八線又是一模一樣的案例就是說我們這些城市我們先不要管說之前國共論壇講說什麼要什麼AI交流數據交流什麼醫療交流那個完全都是風險但"},{"start":13511.937,"end":13526.769,"text":"撇開國共亂談講的這些東西光是觀光這件事情所能夠造成的風險其實就已經非常巨大那我今天看到這個台中市長盧秀燕她也提到就是說希望盡快中央來做對決我覺得這都是很危險的事物"},{"start":13529.872,"end":13547.529,"text":"大陸人要來台灣本來他第一道程序就是他要向當地的公安局申請到進入台灣地區的證件這樣子那所以不管是團客也好或是自由行或者是一般商務旅客或者是等等其他專案的都是一樣的"},{"start":13550.471,"end":13573.217,"text":"都是一樣的也就是說大陸這邊他自己要先肯放行才可以所以不只是自由行在其他的部分其他用各種名義來台灣的大陸人其實都有同樣的他首先有一個他自己會審核然後會願意放哪些人不放哪些人那個是他們在決定"},{"start":13574.697,"end":13589.423,"text":"但是對我們來講自由行或是團客的部分其實都是兩邊必須要協商的不能說你當初2019年自由行說斷就斷現在你說要恢復就又恢復這個"},{"start":13592.484,"end":13613.132,"text":"對我們來說的話世界上沒有這麼簡單的事情你要斷就斷你要說恢復就恢復那這個台灣政府有台灣政府的立場所以不管是自由行還是團客我們都希望說先經過小兩會的商討再說這樣子但是到目前為止我們之前談團客的問題他們並沒有回復我們的要求"},{"start":13617.734,"end":13643.355,"text":"那自由行的部分這個也是他現在說片面所講所以我們還是在等他看看他們會不會回覆我們說雙邊協商的要求謝謝好那這邊就再請陸委會幫忙做把關那另外還有一個問題就是我想之後到內政委員會再來問就是報導者有報導一系列跟這個台北網紅節有關的這一些消網紅的這些統戰網路這個當然其實在我過往的研究已經也是看了很久"},{"start":13643.895,"end":13656.701,"text":"但看起來有一些新的跡象或有一個新的pattern那關於這個部分我想說就等到之後內政委會有機會的話我再來請教陸委會好謝謝謝謝主席謝謝接下來請牛許廷委員上台質詢謝謝主席海巡署有請請海巡署"},{"start":13681.685,"end":13708.981,"text":"武安辛苦了這個監察院去年9月16號有一個內部調查報告指出就針對今天跟今天這個主題相關的也就是說海巡署的岸際監控能力他做了一個這個內部的調查報告說由雷達紅外線熱顯像然後再到智慧的岸際監控系統然後最後是人力組成的守望哨大概這四個層面來進行組成但這段時間發生很多的橡皮艇啊就是走這種灰色地帶也好或怎麼樣"},{"start":13710.141,"end":13732.05,"text":"來做滲透登陸的事件而且其實都在本來海軍署的監偵範圍之內所以它當然是一個有待這個優化的這樣子的一個防衛的機制那監察院的報告顯示說原因包含第一這個雷達對於小型目標那個橡皮艇嘛這個掌控能力當然就有所不足第二這個光學目獲系統的自動化跟共同作戰圖像的整合性有待加強"},{"start":13732.83,"end":13751.144,"text":"第三是守望哨跟雷達組成的尖針有的時候會有空窗的一個狀況所以海巡署應該要檢討跟調整那麼海巡署在報告裡面有講就是說配合國土安全的任性特別預算就是我們之前通過的要規劃籌建最先進的雷達設備導入AN4能判讀等等那針對光學幕後系統也講也在積極規劃籌建熱線向系統環島智慧暗記監控系統等等那麼就有這些"},{"start":13762.692,"end":13780.32,"text":"這樣子的一些說法那今天既然有排熱質詢相關的專案報告我們當然就希望可以聽到比較具體的說法因為你當然每一次這個大家都講說我在積極籌備我在做規劃我在做整理但問題是具體的這個目標跟內容是什麼我想這個充分的說明是有必要的所以我今天要問海軍署"},{"start":13781.44,"end":13798.231,"text":"第一個執行準備計畫你本來就應該要詳細說明首先我問有關暗記雷達系統你講說未來導入AI判讀那熱顯像系統跟智慧型暗記監控系統好像還是要人工方式判讀這個科技跟人力之間如何協調來降低漏判或誤判的風險請回答"},{"start":13799.945,"end":13825.934,"text":"各位網友非常感謝委員也對於我們海巡組的特別預算有支持所以我們很順利的編列了284億的特別預算這中間裡面就是有剛剛委員講那幾項第一個有關新制雷達部分我們現在新制雷達是比舊的雷達還聰明我們現在這三個系統裡面我們全部會導入AI"},{"start":13827.575,"end":13846.209,"text":"去做然後我們有一個另外一個建案就是把整個海域的狀況一個COP整個海域狀況把它連結串聯起來也就是剛剛委員提到的部分就是後續的兩項沒有辦法整合的部分我們會利用這個建案裡面就全部把它整合起來就是全部導入A來做判別然後"},{"start":13846.969,"end":13862.257,"text":"彼此之間的連結跟這個資訊的互通那所以剛剛委員擔心的這個問題我們會在這一次裡面全部把它一次解決你這個跟你報告講就是一樣的概念嘛就是我們要導入AI我們要進行整備那我想今天要講詳細一點比如說你現在整備到什麼程度了"},{"start":13864.359,"end":13880.557,"text":"我們現在的岸際雷達我們現在開始在做標案116年雷達跟紅花仙熱影像還有環島智慧型監控跟港軍監控這四項所有的監控系統會在116年全部完成"},{"start":13881.098,"end":13907.193,"text":"所以116年 年初 年終 年底 全體建置完成那個因為預算結算是在到年底但是有一部分會在115年就會做結束因為它是階段性的因為還考慮到那個招標廠商的量能還有我們的基地的建置所以它不可能一次在一個年度把它做完我們分兩個年度把它全部做完沒關係 會有提供詳細書面報告因為其實既然我們都知道你會往這個方向做而且也應該往這個方向做"},{"start":13907.893,"end":13934.256,"text":"立法院也通過預算支持你們往這個方向去做那現在大家在監督進度啊我的預算既然通過了我執行總要有效果吧到115年年底今年年底大家可以做完哪些事116年年初年終年底分別做完哪些事這個還是要詳細說明啦這免得監察院也提報告立法院排列專案報告但都沒有進展這樣是很可惜的事好不好這我相信既然大家都有做那就多交代讓大家比較安心第二個是圖資的部分啊"},{"start":13934.816,"end":13952.911,"text":"這個圖資的部分我們還有一位主委是很會做圖啊還PO臉書對不對但大家知道重點嘛是真正你這些真正掌握情勢的圖資你內部在防止滲透的各式各樣的圖資你能不能做有效的整合然後做大家看的其實是結果你有沒有辦法有效防堵圖資的部分核整備進度是不是說明一下"},{"start":13953.371,"end":13975.599,"text":"跟委員報告我們現在所有的海面監控的圖資包括國防部包括有軍給的圖資他本來就是那個我們勤職整個早上我們每天早上都會開都在做的嘛就都在做的都在做部分那另外那個剛剛委員有特別提到就是那個管處委員的這個圖資部分我這邊要特別跟說明很多次了不用再說明了啦我知道啦"},{"start":13975.999,"end":14000.992,"text":"就是說那是他自己在做的我知道但關鍵是你剛剛你講說你本來就有國防部的友軍提供的你自己整理的圖資都會做整合對不對但是今天之所以會被監察院提出來說要檢討就是因為這些圖資顯然掛一漏萬嘛這些特殊的滲透式的小型載具等等還有問題嘛所以我要問你的問題是你在最新的整備或者是升級的過程之中怎麼樣防渡這樣的狀況再次出現回答這個問題就好了謝謝"},{"start":14002.403,"end":14019.703,"text":"我聽您講的是說小目標沒有辦法找到或者說你怎麼整合去防堵可能的滲透風險嗎特別跟委員報告我們現在所有的包括海面包括空中聯合勤政的東西都會進到平台裡面來那也就是我們的雷情會分享給國防部跟友軍單位"},{"start":14021.144,"end":14043.894,"text":"國安部的部分 海情部門 包括海面目標部門也會分享到這個海巡署來所以它的圖示是共用的 而且在平台上面可以完全呈現所以在剛剛講到有圖示落差的部分是沒有問題的現在是監察院提醒你的部分是這樣嘛就是說你都有圖嘛 你有很多嘛但你怎麼去分類 然後怎麼精準掌握嘛去避免這樣的狀況出現嘛 這個才是現在的問題吧"},{"start":14044.854,"end":14064.544,"text":"對 跟委員報案 因為監察院調查那是兩年前的事我們現在已經慢慢的在改善 未來的部分 投資的部分會整合在一起不會有剛剛講的部分就是 這一個是歸這個 那個是歸那個未來會整合在一起 會整個呈現在一個COP整個平台裡面"},{"start":14064.844,"end":14093.33,"text":"沒關係這個一樣嘛就是說你在每個階段之後你做了哪一些的優化讓它的分裂可以清楚然後讓大家的掌握可以更明白一樣你就按照剛剛前面我們講嘛就是你雷達系統等等的升級有個時間表的改善方式一樣會後做書面說明就可以了可以嗎好不好我們就要提醒這個事第三個我要補充一下就是說現在大家都講嘛這無人機可能是未來戰場上很重要的堅真嘛它是戰場上的眼睛一樣那同樣海巡署我在做岸際巡防等等的時候當然也需要無人機那無人機這個"},{"start":14094.81,"end":14113.307,"text":"如同剛剛您回答的就是說在特別預算裡面也編兩百多億其中一百四十八億是這個提升你的這個巡查量能無人機的部分四十億基本上都通過只有少量凍結所以你該做的還是可以做的預算也都給了對不對但是我看到裡面有寫說你現在只用懸疑型的"},{"start":14114.208,"end":14141.477,"text":"舊型載具嘛那舊型載具的缺點是這樣第一個續航力50分鐘但是關鍵是抗風係數可能比較低一點這大家都知道無人機怕風嘛就吹跑了就不穩了那海上作業那抗風係數更是更重要所以是不夠的所以你講說我要做新型的無人機懸疑事辦計畫提升續航力跟這個抗風可是後來引擎技術出了問題啊驗收不合格造成了沒有辦法處理的狀況所以解約了好啦那現在怎麼辦呢"},{"start":14142.057,"end":14167.405,"text":"我的無人機第二階段我的升級我現在最新的招標狀況我目標新買的無人機的內容是什麼騎乘是什麼這個也是要說明一下吧我們把它公布起來吧特別跟委員報告我們107年就建立就開始使用無人機我想應該是公共機關裡面最早使用無人機來做徵收跟這個救生救難但是那一代的無人機因為那個時空環境影響其實它的無人機的效能是很差的"},{"start":14167.985,"end":14185.005,"text":"這不是 但是現在因為無人機土地猛進所以我們剛剛委員講的部分講的是我們二代機那二代機因為廠商沒有達到我們的要求所以他就解約但是我們那個案子已經解約完了以後我們重新起案那案子也順利的招標我們現在是有第二代機已經招標結束所以是可以同樣廠商做嗎"},{"start":14185.746,"end":14205.424,"text":"不一樣 不一樣 不一樣 完全不一樣那第二代的無人機的滯空 抗風跟徵收效能比第一代好太多了好太多了所以我們已經 我們在今年的六月份會交機那目前是在做接機跟教育訓練接機 現在是四月 所以還有一個多月全部交完嗎 還是分批交機"},{"start":14207.045,"end":14235.071,"text":"全部交完還是分批票 全部交全部都交完 有要補充說明的嗎 可以補充說明沒關係全部交機 所以我們希望這次引擎這些都沒有問題沒有問題 那個規格非常好 而且我們有做POC整個實際實測過了 從嘉義飛到澎湖再回來也都測試過了 我們希望這個東西如期如質的來進行整備跟處理 只要是這樣我想立法院對於這些東西基本上都會是支持的好 海軍署請回 謝謝"},{"start":14236.711,"end":14263.539,"text":"這 國安局長有請請國安局長好 謝謝主席喔 劉委員好局長 辛苦了這個這個我 我請教一下啦這當然您比較專業 但沒有關係啦這監察院調查報告裡面曾經有指出喔 這國防部啊這為了避免滲透嘛 我們今天討論的是這個主題嘛避免這個不提高這個對於滲透的警覺性所以國防部有設計 比如說天威測考 比如說不確"},{"start":14264.619,"end":14279.048,"text":"這自己派特戰部隊去做試驗嘛看看我們的平常的官兵在營舍裡面等等有沒有是否具備充足的這個警覺性那有做了很多次的這個作為一個考評的標準這當然都是很好的事情啊提升警覺性這是強化戰備的一部分喔那"},{"start":14279.818,"end":14306.431,"text":"國安局長你從國安的角度就我們的政府機關等等這樣的一個角度你有沒有相關的這樣子一些機制或是測驗因為最近好多共諜案很危險對不對我們內部集合把控的這樣子的一些機制你的努力是什麼你要不要說明一下因為這部分因為國安局也是中共滲透的重要目標就我們本身在不管是保防或反情報滲透都有一個機制在那包括有定期的進行移測那移測大概"},{"start":14307.071,"end":14335.481,"text":"全中華民國政府裡面做的最積極最平面的應該是本局做測謊的概念那另外只要有任何的出國回來也都還要再進行相關的一個歸巡跟移測來避免到在海外有被接觸的一個狀況那另外我們的督察單位也都會有定期的來針對我們的同仁做必要的一個訪談跟清巡那來提醒同仁注意一下回憶一下最近有沒有被接觸所以我們是有一個機制在運作"},{"start":14336.061,"end":14357.107,"text":"你剛剛提的都是有關於局裡面內部的機合跟建設其實每一局都要有這樣的一個觀念就因應這樣的可能的狀況那你做國安的這個主管機關其他局處的針對內部的這樣子一個反對滲透或者是防制滲透的這樣的各種措施啊政府各機關對不對因為他是無所不在那你們的做法是什麼"},{"start":14357.327,"end":14375.047,"text":"對 我們大概分幾個部分一個部分是把我們自己本身局內的這樣的一個反滲透的機制把它完善好那另外就是跟我們的國安情報機關總共11個機關我們也把我們的經驗跟這11個機關來做分享那另外就是推展到政府的部分那因為調查局是負責我們政府整體的安查跟特查"},{"start":14375.447,"end":14393.574,"text":"那調查局也是我們的國安情報機關裡面的協同情報機關所以我們也會把這部分有些過去的一些案例的一些狀況讓調查局在進行政府的這些相關的反情報的滲透當中也能夠依照過去的一個經驗來做一個比較完善機制的建立"},{"start":14393.874,"end":14408.261,"text":"好 那本席提醒一下嘛 因為各 其實這應該是各個部會啦甚至是其他都要有一些警覺性要有所提高那國安局這個地方作為 你可能是示範 或者是你內部有一些 有做合理的分享然後分不同的層次 情報的敏感度我們也有針對一些比較高風險的局處 可能要做部會啦"},{"start":14414.003,"end":14429.018,"text":"目標對象也是有一個高風險的名單我本期在這邊做一下提醒希望這個部分看看彼此之間借財一些情報防制的這些經驗能夠讓滲透的狀況可以降到最低謝謝 國安局長請回主席我可以再要一分鐘嗎我請陸委會副主委請陸委會副主委謝謝主席"},{"start":14443.888,"end":14472.617,"text":"委員好 副主委吳安這很多委員今天都趁機講一下這個政協會的一些狀況那我直接切入重點因為今天總統府說嘛這個實相措施以及等等相關的這個後續如果有誠意就要跟政府來進行協商那當然嘛這個世界各國也很多人都講樂於對話對話也不要只跟在野黨對話如果跟執政黨跟政府可以有效對話都對於緩解兩岸關係是有一定正面的一個幫助副主委你同意這樣的看法嗎"},{"start":14473.46,"end":14493.989,"text":"同意啊所有的兩岸之間的措施都是應該跟台灣民選政府對話的你講得真好現在總統府現在講說有誠意就要來協商你覺得這只是一個純粹的政治喊話呢還是有打算付諸實際行動我們其實已經跟對岸講了很多次了譬如說團客的觀光"},{"start":14495.449,"end":14515.766,"text":"這個部分我們希望能夠來協商小兩會的能夠來磋商但是他們到現在為止一直不肯回覆嘛所以就卡在這裡所以我今天問了嘛就是說今天既然大家都講對話這件事好像蠻重要的我們先不設大家彼此的政治立場或者是怎麼也好但是我現在要問的只有你現在陸委會介紹的只是要把它正式付諸行動了嗎"},{"start":14517.162,"end":14530.79,"text":"還是就只是今天講一講新聞對付過去就算了因為每一件事情他們單方面宣布之後我們就要看他有沒有要找我們討論然後或者是說他們希望他們要怎麼樣接下來進行那"},{"start":14532.851,"end":14558.135,"text":"所以譬如說他們昨天講說這個上海福建的自由行是那這個部分我們就等他們提出來他們什麼叫有一個正式的東西不是說發個新聞稿發個新聞稿我們沒辦法處理事情這本席不反對啦就是說各個政黨執政也好債也好如果有辦法用對話的方式來降低兩岸衝突的風險我想對於國家安全都有一定幫助它不是唯一的方法但它是有效的方法之一"},{"start":14558.715,"end":14585.113,"text":"那我現在比較擔心的是因為這一連串的過程國內當然就草翻天了嘛 對不對那我現在想的是這政府屢次喊話你們也希望跟中國大陸有一個穩定的對話管道但是好像一直都沒有辦法往前推進就你的立場跟你的方法之間總要有總要可以對稱嘛就是我有你執政黨有執政黨要堅持的地方但是你要堅持這樣立場的時候你用什麼樣的方法可以既堅持你的立場又完成對話的目標陸委會針對這樣有沒有準備"},{"start":14588.359,"end":14611.44,"text":"如果對方還是堅持什麼九二共識反獨的立場才能夠對話協商那這個基本上可能性就不大但是我們希望說兩岸之間除了這個政治前提之外大家畢竟都還有很多往來的需求嘛那如果他們硬是要抓住這個前提否則其他什麼都不談的話那就沒辦法"},{"start":14612.096,"end":14622.794,"text":"所以你剛剛講其實還是立場就是說你政府有政府要守住這我完全尊重因為大家政治立場本來就可以不一樣民主社會是這樣但在立場跟方法出現衝突的時候你的選擇是什麼我們政府的選擇是什麼"},{"start":14624.264,"end":14651.264,"text":"政府的選擇是中華民國的生存啊中華民國如果不能生存下去那其他利益都不用談了所以某些政治前提如果你危及到中華民國的生存那其他的說你說能賣多少的鳳梨或是柑橘所以我就講眼下你現在面對這些狀況的時候你的選擇是什麼現在就是所謂有四項措施啊也沒有談到別的東西對吧"},{"start":14652.616,"end":14676.084,"text":"這十項措施從我們的角度來看其實就是新瓶裝舊酒啦新瓶裝舊酒其實都不是什麼大禮包啦現在大家講的好像很了不起其實在我們看來是一碗甜不辣想要換到一盅佛跳牆大概就是這樣所以在這個過程中會選擇堅持立場嗎方法就算了是吧"},{"start":14677.104,"end":14702.611,"text":"我們還是希望對方能夠如果你想要做什麼那你就可以直接跟我們政府來對話現在是溫情喊話看有沒有辦法成就這個事沒關係溫情喊話也是方法之一沒關係本席不做任何預設立場我們中華民國現在需要很多方法大家都有不同立場我們已經很清楚了大家都知道但是我們需要解決事情的方法這是我給陸委會你們的本職工作是促進交流這是本席的層次的提醒時間已經到了我們就不多談了謝謝"},{"start":14708.615,"end":14712.697,"text":"好 接下來請徐巧欽委員上台質詢謝謝主席 我們先請這個國安局長請國安局蔡局長好 謝謝主席 學員好"},{"start":14732.767,"end":14759.405,"text":"我想先問一下因為我最近在新聞上也看到了好幾起就是說有不具名的國安人士然後呢是表示說那就是有一些比如說像是可能戰爭相關的啊或是很多議題那這個中共他會用認知作戰的方式非常快速的把這個議題放到台灣的政論節目上面去討論請問一下這樣子的國安人士的說法那國安局這邊是"},{"start":14761.186,"end":14787.4,"text":"什麼態度啊對 中共大概在對台的認知作戰委員剛剛講到的那是一種方式所以你認為確實是有說透過台灣的政論節目去做認知作戰對 它可能會透過一些議題的操作跟傳散那也有可能會影響到我們包括平面媒體或政論節目以及各種網路社群的討論所以是中繼的影響還是直接跟政論節目的互動"},{"start":14788.63,"end":14807.408,"text":"之前有案例是有直接的互動 我應該也記得那個案例嘛那個案例不是後來沒了嗎 所以有喔沒有 那個案例後來已經運送偵辦司法機關在偵辦是喔 那他偵辦就也好久了也沒看到進度啊因為那個時候我知道我知道我知道 我沒有叫你回答這個偵查中的事情只是說"},{"start":14807.808,"end":14819.36,"text":"我只是很疑惑就是說當初不是電視台然後講說沒有這件事情然後主持人也出來講說沒有這件事情但是你們掌握是你們仍然認為說這是一個我們是有情知的你們認為有這樣的情知是不是那這個電視台可能今天沒有在但蠻尷尬的"},{"start":14825.526,"end":14853.038,"text":"那就讓他繼續進到這個對 我們尊重司法偵辦的情緒就讓他繼續去偵辦但是謝謝你告訴我說原來你們是認為有這個情資然後確實有有 當時我就公開這樣講了我們是有相關的情資我的意思是說當這個電視台他們都否認之後你們仍然認為你們情資掌握是無誤的嘛是這麼說嘛 對不對對 我們有情資好 那了解了可是問題是說我們在講認知作戰的時候是用什麼樣的一個觀察點這一點我覺得我要跟您做一個討論"},{"start":14854.158,"end":14870.39,"text":"比如說像最近有在討論印度移工的事情我想問一下印度移工的議題討論你覺得這是來自於中共的任職作戰嗎我的印象當中當初這個議題出來是曾經有一波的梅宣的處理"},{"start":14872.071,"end":14886.028,"text":"我問的是說是不是來自於中共的認知對 中共的有一些我應該知道了以我們的技術能量我們可以去進行相關的帳號的溯源IP的查找那有一些IP我們只要判斷大概就知道是境外或是來自於中共"},{"start":14886.408,"end":14902.472,"text":"我可以看一下當時公視有做這樣的一個報導然後也讓NHK做了一個報導他提到的是台灣民主實驗室是用裡面的留言或是文章的詞彙認定是認知作戰的比如說他提到了假設說這個"},{"start":14904.813,"end":14923.435,"text":"人認為呢 假如台灣政府真是缺心眼這個 word use for stupid is also one use in the mainland not in Taiwan所以這個當時民主實驗室是這樣子去做一個解釋我看下一張投影片 上面有寫 你可以看英文的部分"},{"start":14923.815,"end":14941.998,"text":"也就是說比如說盜竊跟竊盜這個用法或是如果你講的缺心眼像類似這樣子的一個詞彙的運用被用為說不是台灣常見的使用用語的話就會被界定為認知作戰嗎這樣的一個界定會不會太過於狹隘了"},{"start":14943.309,"end":14955.384,"text":"就這部分來講當然透過現在的一些爬蟲程式可以針對一些內容來做一些篩略那我剛才在跟委員說明我們可能除了內容以外我們還會判斷那個船上的管道是不是一個異常帳號"},{"start":14956.793,"end":14980.44,"text":"那這個也是一個輔助來判斷是不是中共傳善的一個依據您剛剛提到就是說有關於說所謂的印度移工的這個事情是當時你認為說有當時因為我們在講當時有這個中共的這個認知作戰在裡面可是呢我們可以看到像這樣子的一個報導他在2025年的10月的時候被公視揭露說他認為說當時有這個情況嘛"},{"start":14983.081,"end":14998.91,"text":"可是其實在討論的過程當中2024年勞動部確實就跟印度簽署了MOU那為什麼還是認定說這個叫做認知作戰就對一般民眾來說會覺得說確實這個你看確實當初本來說是假訊息這個勞動部在112年12月20號的時候說"},{"start":15009.127,"end":15028.081,"text":"引進印度移工當然有一個差別啦就是他有講到10萬名這個部分是假訊息他是一起講的這點我也要幫忙說明那但是呢這個事情沒過多久之後馬上的那就在100在這個很快你可以看到就馬上簽訂了這個MOU所以"},{"start":15031.443,"end":15051.787,"text":"這個事情只是因為要已經要簽署了然後還沒有公開那他就被認為說是政治作戰還是說呢你們用什麼樣一個標準跟方法去界定因為我們現在很擔心一件事情就是民眾有怨言的就你今天有一個議題就算他一開始呢他的溯源他可能你認為說有幾個中共的什麼IP在幹嘛的"},{"start":15054.548,"end":15074.301,"text":"但我們還是要區分說這個事情是不是台灣民眾所關心的如果這個訊息是台灣民眾所關心所建議然後呢認為說有問題的不能把民怨等同於認知作戰即便裡面或許有人在煽風點火我不排除也不否認裡面有人可能在煽風點火"},{"start":15075.242,"end":15089.071,"text":"但是它跟民怨之間就真的台灣有民怨對於是不是要開放印度移工這是一個事實那裡面小部分的人煽風點火就可能在任何的一個議題裡面都會出現中共它嘗試做這樣的方式可是民眾並不是因為中共做了認知作戰的煽風點火所以才對這個議題有意見那這個議題的整體討論它就不應該被列為所謂的是因為認知作戰這樣 您怎麼看對"},{"start":15103.881,"end":15127.771,"text":"委員舉這個例子我可以理解也就是說後來確實有簽署MOU但我剛剛一直在跟委員說明的是我們可能除了所謂的爭議訊息的內容以外我們會針對它的傳散的手法以及它的異常帳號的IP的浮動的狀況來判斷這是不是外力的操作那另外就議題來講當時比較引起我們關注的內容是在於有點去誇大"},{"start":15129.051,"end":15154.06,"text":"印度移工進來可能會對於台灣社會之安包括對於女性侵害那一部分的誇大所以我們重體分析起來認為是有一波中共比較有信心的操作因為現在台灣民眾也在討論這個議題重新在討論說印度的移工那要進到台灣來然後您剛剛所說的這一些內容也是在討論的這一些議題議程當中的"},{"start":15156.201,"end":15181.563,"text":"那請問你有觀察到大概最近對於印度移工是否要引進台灣這件事情有中共的認知作戰嗎最近我們看到是比較零星的那沒有像上次委員在提到一兩年前那一次比較有系統的所以你認為這一次確實是民怨而不是中共的認知作戰我們看到的境外的IP是比較零星的"},{"start":15181.983,"end":15210.779,"text":"因為討論這件事情他當然是針對反對因為我想講的是反對的意見嘛所以就說好我修正我的詞彙就反對引進印度移工現在不管在網路或是輿論甚至政論節目的討論裡面那國安局這裡在這一波判定裡面基本上不太有中共認知作戰的引進目前還沒有大規模的而是單純台灣人民的意志是這樣子的嗎"},{"start":15211.519,"end":15233.59,"text":"目前在原子能力當然會有不同的討論的角度就像委員講的我們是個多元的社會有不同的討論那就國安局的角度來講我們比較注意的是國安的狀況有沒有境外勢力的操作這一塊那我們在判斷的一些依準還有參據我剛有跟委員說明了有各種不同的指標那我再問你說這一波就是在大概一周來說的話因為討論"},{"start":15235.511,"end":15258.668,"text":"討論非常多它幾乎是包含在社群上面的最高關鍵討論度討論度最高的最近兩個議題一個是寵物用藥討論度更高的是印度移工因為上一次被界定為說是政治作戰所以這一次我很希望跟您確認一下這一波以來國安局所掌握的是中共來的認知作戰還是台灣內部的自行討論"},{"start":15260.209,"end":15276.764,"text":"到目前跟委員討論這個時間點為止我們還沒有看到數量非常龐大的異常帳號的操作但我們後續會再來注意那接下來我要問的事情是有一點時間了在今年二月底的時候因為這個台日在台北大巨蛋有這個台日棒球交流賽嘛"},{"start":15277.965,"end":15299.083,"text":"那賴清德總統他有親自觀賽那時候維安規格是非常高的結果我們的負責維安勤務的38歲的江姓現役軍人呢然後呢因為先去做安全檢查的關係呢就呢在地下室工作人員休息室裡面偷走了六顆紀念性的棒球裡面還有拉拉多多圓圈圈的這個簽名球那事後警方這個透過監視器就發現說是這個他順手牽羊"},{"start":15304.628,"end":15327.299,"text":"那後來呢他變成說是以為是沒有人要的垃圾雖然已經歸還了可是被依盜竊罪含送台北地檢署偵辦那這件事情他不只是涉及到個人的操守也破錄出總統維安人員的紀律漏洞那我請問一下就是維安人員他當初的他當天去的工作是幫總統"},{"start":15328.459,"end":15343.609,"text":"搜尋說有沒有哪裡有維安的問題哪裡有漏洞就它自己本身就是最大的維安漏洞因為它在裡面偷東西所以我想問一下國防部司法的部分那已經函送了那是司法的部分我在這裡我不討論但我要討論的是國安局我們在內部"},{"start":15347.612,"end":15366.414,"text":"裡面針對這件事情的紀律問題我們有沒有做出檢討檢討的內容檢討的方向以及後續的懲處未來的改善方法是什麼請您說明這部分跟委員說明一下第一個是他確實在第一時間就已經移送法辦了那另外因為這一位請願他是由國防部縣指部支援到"},{"start":15366.934,"end":15393.437,"text":"本局特勤中心來負責做總統行程之前的現場勘察的工作所以我們後來第一時間就解除他資源的職務那回到縣指部之後縣指部我沒有記錯的話他還立刻召開了人評會計量大過列優先汰除名單已經公布在案那我們國安局裡面也有擴大來進行這個案子的調查是不是只有一個情員資源的情員來涉案那跟委員報告後來還有兩位的情員也可能知情所以我們後來就是啟動我們的"},{"start":15394.818,"end":15400.701,"text":"知情的意思是說知道那個人去拿走幾顆球但沒說這樣子對 因為我們在法律的研究認為這也是涉及到共犯行為的一種所以我們就啟動我們的相關的那兩位他的單位是在一樣是記憶兩大過六圍有限太子名單"},{"start":15417.15,"end":15434.673,"text":"而是我們特勤中心和相關的人員所屬國安局的特勤中心的人員對 我們特勤中心的人員所以我們一樣做內部的調查 高大調查處犯他是從縣執部那邊來支援的然後知情不報者是國安局特勤中心的人員所以我們就做完整的處理 而且移送"},{"start":15435.694,"end":15445.701,"text":"因為案情大概的狀況是這樣因為當事人可能還在走刑證、訴願以及司法的程序細節不需要我只希望說未來我們在整體的勤務安排還有整體的這一些教育跟訓練上面還是要強化這個紀律因為總統去的地方他當然是一些一般人去不到的地方"},{"start":15458.769,"end":15483.628,"text":"他能夠觸碰到的東西跟接觸到的事物也是一般人接觸不到的事物那所謂的好東西那當然他是很容易都可以接觸到那我們今天要請這些特勤人員去是幫總統去檢查不是說哎呀有少好東西就順手牽羊喔這是一個非常糟糕的壞習慣所以希望國安局在之後這方面的相關的紀律我們一定要再嚴加看管好不好"},{"start":15484.048,"end":15496.482,"text":"委員提醒喔 因為在執行公務期間還有去佔有民間的財務那這當然是法律上不容許那我們才會不斷的擴大調查看有沒有案官人等 一併處理好的 謝謝謝委好 謝謝 接下來請黃建斌委員上台諮詢"},{"start":15515.278,"end":15537.676,"text":"謝謝主席我想沒有人喜歡戰爭 本席也希望世界和平 兩岸友好共存那這次正席會就是藉由意見交流 衝到兩岸友好的共榮的契機那中國大陸同時也公布對台灣的實相利多 例如恢復上海福建自由行食品輸入的解禁然後指甲師等等這些措施"},{"start":15538.837,"end":15552.765,"text":"那執政黨一直說這是國民黨跟共產黨的政治交易本期在強調其實沒有什麼叫政治交易我們只是打開交流的大門那現在大門打開了那中共也是隨便善意後續要怎麼做還是要回歸到兩岸的官方去來談"},{"start":15553.846,"end":15578.152,"text":"那昨天其實有媒體採訪台東的一個親農對這次政協會的看法他的回答很簡單他說我是想要養家糊口哪裡有市場就把農產品往哪裡賣他們不在乎政治的議題我所以希望也陸委會跟我們相關單位也能夠好好的跟中共大陸來談解決台東農產品銷售的問題讓農民可以活下去那我回到今天質詢的議題我們有請那個國安局局長請國安局蔡局長"},{"start":15583.032,"end":15604.78,"text":"好 謝謝主席 黃委員好局長好 局長 上個禮拜有跟您討論就是4月10號美伊停火談判的情況要求說國安局一定要確實掌握各項的變數那提供相關的訊息給各單位做提早的準備那很不幸美伊談判破局那川普說他在12號要表示他要封鎖赫姆茲海峽"},{"start":15605.62,"end":15620.136,"text":"那美軍也宣布說在美東時間13號的10點要針對進出伊朗港口所有海上交通實施封鎖但不阻礙來飛伊朗港口的船隻通過荷姆斯海峽的航行自由"},{"start":15620.777,"end":15642.835,"text":"那雖然說美軍表示他不會影響他國的船隻的航行但是是不是會影響石油的運輸還有待觀察那如果這個戰爭持續下去那絕對會影響我國的這個經濟所帶來的這個負面的影響那請國安局這邊也務必要確實掌握各項的情資讓我們行政院還有相關各部會能夠提早因應然後回復我國這個經濟能源的安全"},{"start":15643.536,"end":15656.472,"text":"有 這部分上次跟委員在交換意見委員有特別提醒那我也跟委員說明事實上過去這一段時間從2月28號美伊戰爭之後我們在跟國際情報交流的重點之一就是美伊戰爭情勢的一個變化"},{"start":15658.855,"end":15680.257,"text":"上禮拜跟委員還有媒體說明的時候也提到那美國政府現在的策略大概一方面是極限的施壓凋渡軍力來對伊朗施加相關的一個壓力那也跟以色列方面做非常縝密的軍事行動的協調那另一方面就是透過巴基斯坦來進行外交的磋商所以才會有委員所看到日前三方的一個談判的一個過程"},{"start":15681.198,"end":15700.352,"text":"那不過我覺得雙方事實上對於談判還是都蠻積極投入的那我會這樣的一個說明是因為美方派出來的談判團隊是陣容非常的堅強位階很高由副總統來帶隊那伊朗方面也是美方這邊大概有快兩三百人的談判團隊伊朗這邊有七十幾人的談判團隊由他們的國會議長帶外交部部長帶央行的行長那代表雙方是很願意去進行討論"},{"start":15707.677,"end":15727.713,"text":"只是雙方的一個基本的立場跟關切目前還沒有辦法完全聚焦包括伊朗能不能來生產濃縮鈾的這些原料那以及荷姆茲海峽後續是不是要開放以及可不可以收取通行費的問題也都還沒有具體的結論那另外對於伊朗要解除國際制裁的部分那美方也不願意在這個階段來讓步"},{"start":15728.914,"end":15755.774,"text":"所以我跟委員說明的是 他還是在一個過程當中那可能我們後續再看雙方磋商的一個變化以及美國在談判可能陷入僵局之下他的極限施壓手段有沒有來迫使伊朗做進一步的妥協好 謝謝局長非常詳細的說明 希望讓我們持續的關注會會 委員上次有提醒謝謝局長 接下來局長請休息接下來我想請國防部跟海委會一起上來培訓請國防部副部長還有海委會"},{"start":15763.788,"end":15777.012,"text":"9號跟10號金門沿海分別傳出中國籍的漁船入侵的消息那這兩個案件都是由海巡署來查緝海巡署請教副主委署長那海巡署目前查處的情況如何請簡短的說明就好"},{"start":15778.161,"end":15794.803,"text":"那艘船是因為那個海箱不好然後沒有細菌然後漂流到這個岸基那目前這個案子已經處理好了也就是對方放棄那個船然後以後我們用這個廢棄物的這個方法來做處理是"},{"start":15796.124,"end":15823.769,"text":"學長那個中國小型船隻或者是漁船入侵台灣海域已經不是單一事件那過去也發生過像2025年2024年都各別發生像中國人是搭乘橡皮艇從觀音海水域場上岸然後以及中國人民駕駛小艇從福州進入淡水河然後一直到他停靠在淡水碼頭才被民眾舉報那這些案件凸顯出我國針對這個小型漁船還有徵收的盲點那尤其是小型船隻他會藉由這個反"},{"start":15824.349,"end":15843.303,"text":"反雷達解的那個面積太小還有電磁波反射訊號太弱等等以及包括什麼海浪的這些干擾啊就是避開我們就是發現這不容易被我們我國的雷達所偵測到那也就是因為這樣穿過我國海岸的防線這不僅僅影響到我國海岸的安全"},{"start":15843.723,"end":15862.496,"text":"它更是侵害到我國的這個漁權那國安局今天包括也有指出這個弱點就是說針對這些必須建置科技化系統化的監偵系統然後也針對海上漁權海上的船隻的安全跟查緝那這個是海巡署有工作那本席今天看到海巡署有提到這個"},{"start":15863.357,"end":15879.315,"text":"要科正規劃籌建最先進雷達設備並導入AI智能自動判讀功能提升對小型目標之偵測跟辨識效能外也積極的規劃籌建紅外線影像系統及環島智慧型暗記監控系統"},{"start":15881.417,"end":15897.646,"text":"從2024年中國小型船隻入侵台灣本島以來已經快兩年那這段時間海巡署對於我們海洋防衛的弱點補強有哪些具體的成效還有殘棄的這個成效有哪些海巡署要花多久的時間可以建置完善我國海洋跟海岸巡防的工作簡單回答"},{"start":15898.567,"end":15915.048,"text":"跟委員報告那這種這種小案子發生以後我們除了在勤務上精進以外我們對雷達操作人員包括運用這些科技設備的人員我們有做一系列不斷的這個教育訓練那不斷的精進這些徵收技能另外對於雷達的運用"},{"start":15916.83,"end":15941.152,"text":"就現有的部分我們是持續在做優化那未來在那個國土防衛陣性的預算裡面就有編列我們這些優化的這些更高規格的這個雷達更高規格的紅外線跟更高規格的岸際監控系統那我們會在116年之前會全部建置完畢也就是目前對於徵收的效能會大幅度的這個優化"},{"start":15942.133,"end":15970.401,"text":"那我想未來對於這個小軍目標創案的問題我們會這一個會大幅度的減少讓海域更安全謝謝署長 署長 我要分析一下 請問您跟海軍的工作不一樣海軍他負責的是海上的作戰海巡是負責海域的執法那千萬不要因為這些防衛的漏洞影響到我國海上的安全跟漁民的權益那接下來我想要請教我們次長次長 我們在什麼樣的情況之下會打開AIS的訊號"},{"start":15972.901,"end":15987.029,"text":"市長簡單說明就好您是說什麼船隻在什麼情況之下軍艦會打開AIS的訊號我們請我們海軍參謀長回答喂好我是海軍參謀長參謀長你好參謀長軍艦基本上我們AIS是不開啟的不開啟不開啟他有沒有開啟的時候什麼情況他都不會開啟嗎不會"},{"start":15999.007,"end":16022.422,"text":"謝謝市長,我想軍艦的執行非常的特殊,因為你不開啟的原因是因為怕會洩漏行蹤,這是國防的安全問題,那你不開的話你要怎麼知道這是哪一種軍艦?我們是不是只有透過無人機或者是衛星混合合成的孔鏡雷達影像主動來證收,然後使用的是這樣子嗎?這是手段之一"},{"start":16023.243,"end":16037.584,"text":"那看起來我們手段其實也是很有限嘛就在這幾個方法對不對我們有很多多元的方法我們可以掌握解放軍的建設OK 謝謝三部長今天你報告公布有提到跟海巡署執行這個偵查有關的這個資料的互通那但共軍"},{"start":16038.806,"end":16054.915,"text":"海上的這個軍艦偵查應該是海軍負責吧那所以海委會主委管主委他PO這個海面態勢圖應該是國防部提供的那雖說過去我們會隱藏一些敏感的資料避免被共軍掌握到我國的偵訪的方式但"},{"start":16056.363,"end":16082.573,"text":"共軍他仍然可以透過我國既有的偵查武器去推敲你是怎麼進行那來進行這個反偵測的動作那國防部2024年其實我們2024年的時候有有一個改變中共解放軍進入台海周邊空域活動示意圖的公佈的圖資就是把那個共軍我們查到共軍的機型啊飛行的軌跡啊船艦的資料都給他去除那甚至在我們這個相關的影像上在進行重製"},{"start":16083.433,"end":16103.125,"text":"目的是為什麼就是我們要避免共軍會從這些資料裡面探測出我軍可能的徵收方式嘛那從中間獲得這個武器的參數的資料來演算出我反反制你的方法嘛是這樣子對不對 是這樣子沒錯對不對是不是這個意思 是 能不能回答委員好 我是情報次長次長是不是這樣子剛剛您所講的"},{"start":16105.902,"end":16119.532,"text":"大部分都是對的我們要做這些示意的圖主要的目的是一方面要滿足民眾知的權利另外一方面我們還是要兼顧到勤資的來源還有一些徵收的手段的機密性"},{"start":16121.033,"end":16147.991,"text":"其實本席非常支持適當的公佈我國周邊沿海空域的偵查資料我們同時也要恪恪我們要恪指周邊的國家你不要做違法的事情但是是不是要需要到詳細到連船艦的號碼選號都公佈我覺得這個都可以再斟酌啦應該是採取風險較小的方式來進行會比較好畢竟現在電子偵查的技術日新月異如果你相關的武器參數被敵軍掌握"},{"start":16151.373,"end":16179.074,"text":"反制的這個措施我覺得這對台灣的國防也不是好事情那這方面我是也請國安局國防部跟海巡署務必也做好這相關的這些防範措施我們不要因為這個急功耗力因小失大讓台灣安全產生黑洞嘛那另外最後我利用一點時間就是要跟海巡署反映一件事情就是組長台東有漁民來跟本席反映說有外縣市搭載大陸漁工的漁船在台東台東12海里內的範圍來捕魚"},{"start":16180.655,"end":16197.121,"text":"那這個部分我們也要請海巡署同仁多加留意然後查證倘若有這樣的事情也請海巡單位務必嚴格的查緝這些不肖的船隻然後維護這些守法於民的這些權益蘇緝武好沒問題我們會查證好謝謝署長謝謝是謝主席謝謝"},{"start":16204.349,"end":16210.532,"text":"接下來請賴士寶 賴士寶 賴士寶委員不在 請鍾嘉斌委員上台質詢阿主席 在下黨委員先進 列席政府專屬黨官員 會長 工作夥伴 媒體記者女士先生有請國防部徐副部長及海軍司令部朱參謀長和海委會張副主委兼我們海巡署的署長"},{"start":16233.126,"end":16234.19,"text":"請以上人員就被尋臺 謝謝"},{"start":16238.402,"end":16262.853,"text":"副主委好副部長好副主委好來引向加持無人艇應對海上滋擾無人艇建案訓練戰備足夠並行先請教副主委我國政府下一頁我國政府網路三個月照清老1.7億次那這裡面我們看到了什麼包括不只這個官方有什麼中共來的是戰機跟海警船灰色地帶有漁船相比艇網路滋擾人員受到等等等"},{"start":16263.893,"end":16271.4,"text":"請問一下我們副主委,除了攻擊擾台、海警船等官方手段,漁船橡皮艇、網路威脅,這個您覺得是不是也很嚴重?工委報案,這是值得關注的問題。好,所以我們今天都在關心。來,下一頁。我們小型船艇的入侵難偵測,用SAR還是用影像觀測?小型橡皮艇,雷達難偵測,暗記雷達很難,看到那麼小的。"},{"start":16288.636,"end":16306.63,"text":"高度目標體積又小漁船的話它可能關閉或AIS對不對所以難以查獲又可以製造假象又可以隱匿行蹤所以說我們海巡很吃重啊要靠你們海巡還有燈檢可是燈檢的皮膚分泌船隻老化請問一下有沒有更高效的應對方式譬如用SAR核心恐怖型雷達還是用影像觀測"},{"start":16307.651,"end":16325.465,"text":"副主任你怎麼看剛委員提到的都是方法之一另外我們現在用高科技的無人機部分也是一個方法之一另外我們優化我們的所有零二氰針針的相關設備也可以徵收到相關的設備可以建設建議你們除了無人機之外還有什麼無人艇來往下看"},{"start":16325.985,"end":16348.821,"text":"之前我跟您海巡都有建議過無人艇的運作模式無人艇的好處它不會累它可以在待命模式然後出去執行任務然後它還可以返航那這時候很重要的我們都知道目前的無人載具自動巡標自主導控很重要那就無人艇來講要訓練它就要影像識別要日間的夜間的這需要高階鏡面需要紅外線這個大概是無人艇的運作模式往下看"},{"start":16350.322,"end":16371.67,"text":"如果是搭配海軍也有這種做法比如說我們無人艇搭配無人機自動巡航那麼像這個辨識目標後它就接近驅離那如果以海巡來講我們主要是驅離哪些環節你覺得如果用無人艇來協助海巡對這些不明船舶或灰色滋擾您覺得有哪些地方可以加強的"},{"start":16372.622,"end":16393.617,"text":"我非常佩服委員 委員也經常提供先進的資訊給我我這邊特別要回答委員海巡組在這次特別任性條例裡面有編列了一筆預算也就是專門做水面的溫庭跟水下的溫宅局部分另外在空中的部分也都是並行在一起來處理"},{"start":16395.098,"end":16415.821,"text":"這三者來聯合起來就可以做成三維的立體的聯合性真正的部分那另外無人艇主要的好處就是它自來時間很長然後也可以維護我們人員在服務群上安全另外對於風險高風險的這些船舶譬如說是這個可疑的船舶那我們用無人艇先去先徵收然後也可以保護我們人員的安全是的"},{"start":16416.221,"end":16433.209,"text":"所以吳仁廷出任務可以透過AI加持他需要影像資料來加以訓練因為影像辨識跟自動尋標你要AI是自動化辨識需要大量的影像要有模型訓練要準確還能識破偽裝請問海巡組要如何取得大量的海上平面影像資料庫"},{"start":16435.356,"end":16455.556,"text":"除了我們平常聯合情爭爭以外還有國防部跟友軍提供的這些資訊以外另外我們從空中的這個偵搜的也可以做到很好 你講到空中那我們來看一下往下看跟蹤跟追蹤是不太一樣的文人挺訓練學校的影像呢如果說今天我們透過高空的偵蹤像瑞恩二行"},{"start":16456.337,"end":16474.64,"text":"上面往下俯瞰這時候看到的是一樣是一種資料但是無人艇如果它要自主導控它需要的是什麼它需要的是水平的圖像不然的話你要在瑞淵上面告訴你來船在哪裡 船在哪裡因為你分不出誰是誰所以呢無人艇它是需要水平的還是需要垂直的影像"},{"start":16476.249,"end":16495.252,"text":"水平水平很好所以目前我就往下走了好 那個水平影像我們給你一個參考的例子大家有聽過Google的街景車對不對它在隨著道路這樣走它可以把這個都市的3D影像測會出來但是也有人說那個計程車滿街跑啊"},{"start":16496.193,"end":16501.539,"text":"計程車上面有那個行車記錄器啊如果要知道的不是道路周邊的建築是道路上的車輛的話搞不好計程車上面的行車記錄器就會成為影像的取得來源您覺得如果以這兩個做比喻"},{"start":16511.21,"end":16515.892,"text":"您覺得未來海上的平面影像是要透過專屬的配置的船艦去取得還是可以用一些其他的作業的船隻幫我們順便取得海面上我們的手臂海域上相關的影像船舶的影像"},{"start":16527.711,"end":16555.347,"text":"跟尾巴這兩個都是方法之一那其實如果是針對特定的標的特定的地方特定我們還是建議用那個有目的性的專屬的船艦那另外如果廣域的部分這個部分我們有很多的方式譬如說我們的漁船譬如說我們其他在航的艦船艇還有其他的商務員都可以從事也幫我們做這件事情所以我知道從高空的影像現在影像資料庫有得買"},{"start":16556.192,"end":16571.97,"text":"但是那是很多國家他們通過衛星大量收集的但是我們海巡巡弋的防衛我們不用到歐洲 不用到北海我們就台灣附近的海域這個海域的空間有限我們集中取得這水平的影像資料這個我們請海巡去研究一下好 再往下走"},{"start":16573.972,"end":16596.632,"text":"那麼請教一下其實除了無人艇除了海巡之外的軍方也在可以使用我們看一下如果以FAA無人機跟無人艇來看的話大概無人機跟無人艇在我們軍事上的使用大概有幾個不一樣無人機是一次性的而且訓練都損耗很高無人艇就算他有攻擊型他在沒有攻擊後他還是可以平安返航無人機比較困難"},{"start":16598.055,"end":16619.671,"text":"無人機的迭代更新很快無人艇的迭代更新沒那麼快所以基本上我們無人機會用買的但是無人艇的部分其實有一種可能就是租賃無人艇應用場景多元是否應該全部買到我請問副部長您看法呢您覺得未來軍方在建置無人機跟無人艇它的一個取得的方式有沒有不同"},{"start":16622.129,"end":16647.85,"text":"現在的確如委員所講這個無人機不只FPV啦它這個因為疊帶有針尖型的不同的是的確是它的那個疊帶更新的確是很快所以我們像我們特別預算的話我們是逐年它都要改變標準分批逐年買對 一定要這樣子但是無人艇的基本上我來往下看其實無人艇呢我們就以永英高校機跟主力戰機來看好了我們的永英高校機我們是自製的"},{"start":16648.951,"end":16677.453,"text":"他的推力 相關的性能雖然較主力 但是消遣一點但最大的差別他的上面的電子偵控的電控系統呢他比較沒有那麼先進因為訓練的時候你不需要直接雷達射控都OK但是呢 如果我們用無人艇來說今天如果我們國家建置無人艇的一個部隊假設要一千艘那你要先什麼 先訓練人員嘛那這時候有沒有考慮過先要有一個用教育訓練為主的無人艇"},{"start":16679.175,"end":16692.613,"text":"用租賃的方式來提供給海軍包括說我們海軍有專長訓練中心無人機跟無人艇差別在無人機如果訓練不好掉下來就砸了無人艇不會但是無人艇要維修所以無人艇的艦軍"},{"start":16694.736,"end":16712.53,"text":"除了我們一線作戰用的軍備要用購買的之外有沒有可能考慮用本土來建立我們訓練就像永硬一樣用這種方式來用租賃的方式提供售後服務還可以迭代更新的方式來作為我們海軍建置我們無人艇部隊的一個方法我可不可以請海軍三分長回覆來 請"},{"start":16717.286,"end":16740.376,"text":"跟委員報告一下我們訓練的這個部分我們那個無人艇因為我們主要的目的是用來供洗所以就算要租賃的話也必須要廠商願意去產製那個跟我們自殺型無人艇一模一樣的艇才有辦法做我們訓練使用所以說永英跟我們的主力戰機難道不能相容嗎"},{"start":16741.701,"end":16748.482,"text":"對不對 所以我們空軍用無人 泳鷹 泳鷹做高校機它如果正在戰爭的時候 它裝上了最先進的射控雷達它裝上了武裝 它也是一個戰機啊所以無人艇它在 我只是說在無人艇因為它好處是什麼它訓練的時候的損耗跟無人機是不同的它浮在水上嘛 操作失誤也不會全毀嘛所以是請海軍思考一下未來我們海軍在建設無人艇建軍的時候除了購買先進 最先進的這種自殺性的無人艇"},{"start":16771.027,"end":16771.73,"text":"它有很好的反干扰很好的增光"},{"start":16775.694,"end":16799.471,"text":"一個控制設備,很好的電子反制設備之外那麼在訓練的時候不需要開這個嘛訓練的時候我們就需要它會操作它會,因為它會自主導航那麼這種情況之下是不是海軍在建置無人艇部隊的時候也應該參考空軍的主力戰機的方式自主研發我們本土型的類似永鷹的這樣的高校機讓我們的海軍的人才培訓可以跟著它使用的器材與時俱進可以嗎?對"},{"start":16801.232,"end":16802.013,"text":"請國防部就吳仁健您財固模式是我居足夠併行的可能提出說明報告可以嗎"},{"start":16825.245,"end":16841.597,"text":"是 謝謝謝謝委員指示好 那在最後一點時間在上週我們在場的召委我們的陳召委他舉辦了一個海上防衛無人論壇我去聽了一點小段我覺得非常的精彩內容非常豐富不曉得我們國防部有沒有請人去參考有沒有有沒有人請人去收集那邊的意見好像沒有受邀建議你們不是受邀沒有受邀要主動去關心瞭解如果你們有人去收集這些相關的意見"},{"start":16855.068,"end":16867.096,"text":"我是持肯定開放的態度我覺得這個論壇辦得非常好如果國安部有去多收集民間的聲音也可以參考如果你們參考的就讀還不夠你也可以提供給我一份讓我來參考一下可以嗎"},{"start":16868.919,"end":16888.373,"text":"好 謝謝委員那個 朝委不好意思我講錯了 我講錯了有來有來是不是因為我不知道 不好意思不好意思OK 有有有有來啦齁那如果你們那個報告除了內參濟民的部分以外的部分可以給我們也參考一下因為我覺得辦得很好我們希望未來我們國家建軍防衛的方向應該是軍民各方面重複來進行好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":16901.123,"end":16910.63,"text":"接下來請洪孟凱 洪孟凱 洪孟凱委員不在請洪玉祥 洪玉祥 洪玉祥委員不在請李昆城委員上台質詢謝謝主席我們請國安局蔡局長請蔡局長"},{"start":16930.643,"end":16952.162,"text":"好 謝謝主席 李委員好局長辛苦了 那這個行政會剛結束了然後這個國台辦就釋出了這個所謂的十大的這個利多的一個措施 會台的措施那包含我們這個局長你也提到這個它有這個三層意義那核心的宣示就是台海河根站由北京說了算"},{"start":16952.842,"end":16964.871,"text":"然後呢 這個陸委會這邊也有提到就是說中共將兩岸的交流武器化 工具化然後呢 政治目的化那我想請教一下這個局長剛好這個"},{"start":16969.226,"end":16994.048,"text":"這個我想北京也是有用心就是在這個可能在川習會五月川習會之前先提前辦了這個所謂的習政會那我想請教一下局長這個所謂的十大會台措施然後包含這個習政會那這個會不會影響到說這個五月份這個舉辦這個川習會的時候中共藉由拉攏台灣的反對黨"},{"start":16995.063,"end":17003.586,"text":"然後呢又藉由釋出這個十大的這個所謂的會台的措施那會不會這個中共試圖想要營造一個說那"},{"start":17004.059,"end":17030.329,"text":"反正這個台海的問題就是一個中國內政的問題然後現在跟台灣也處得還不錯然後希望美國不用賣這麼多武器給台灣有沒有想要營造類似的這種效果事實上早上在跟媒體朋友說明的時候也大概是用這個觀點來切入因為就管局來講我們比較重視的還是中共對台的統戰跟策略操作的手法"},{"start":17030.769,"end":17060.175,"text":"那特別在說明的是這一次利用跟國內在野黨的交流那有看到在戰略面確實去凸顯在台海的核或戰的議題上那北京是有主導權的那以這樣的一個論述跟敘事來排除外力介入台海的情勢那另外也操作到在野黨可能對於北京傳統的對台政策立場的一個呼應來增加北京後續在川習會過程當中去處理到涉台議題的一些政治操作的手法"},{"start":17061.296,"end":17079.395,"text":"那這個部分也是我早上跟媒體朋友在說明的一個重點那所以說 因為現在我們的軍購的特別條例也不知道這個何時會審查因為冷凍期是到4月底 可能也到5月份了然後也不知道說5月份能不能如期的審查"},{"start":17080.897,"end":17098.514,"text":"這個請教一下局長那你認為說在川習會之前那對於這一個第一個在台灣就是說我不知道軍工特別條例能不能順利審查那第二個會不會影響到說您的評估會不會影響到說下一波川普這個有可能再賣第二批的武器給台灣"},{"start":17099.972,"end":17126.497,"text":"對 大概在這部分跟委員簡單說明一下那就在川習會的過程當中我們當然不能夠排除那中共可能會在涉台議題上去提到對美軍購的這個議題那不過也跟委員做報告的是就我們所了解的一個狀況那在美國跟中國互動過程當中只要涉及到所謂台美軍購議題的話那美方的闡述立場事實上非常的明確那認為這是美國一貫的一個政策"},{"start":17126.937,"end":17142.678,"text":"所以可能在川習會過程當中不能排除在這議題上會有一些各自表述或交鋒的一個過程那就我們的理解美國在對台政策它還是有一個延續性的那這部分我能不能再請我們國防部我們徐副部長來做一個說明"},{"start":17145.003,"end":17161.94,"text":"市委好我剛剛請教這一個蔡局長的問題您剛剛有聽到嗎是您最後一個問題是就是說啊就是說因為這個川習會在五月嘛那不曉得會不會影響到未來如果有第二批這個美方有在賣武器給台灣的話會不會影響到這個進程"},{"start":17163.854,"end":17188.914,"text":"當然我們現在跟美方還是溝通是順暢的到目前為止美方給我們的訊息我是指戰爭部給我們的訊息就是一切仍然如常進行目前還沒有受到這個沒有受到進一步其他的那也有可能就是說不管這個國內在野黨跟中國是怎樣的互動那美方跟台灣的關係也不會受到影響"},{"start":17190.149,"end":17208.025,"text":"我們跟戰爭部的這個溝通是順暢那既有的那些已經國會知會的那些目前那個保證信函都已經拿到了然後目前都是順暢至於未來的我們也問過那戰爭部的立場是應該仍然會照常進行這是戰爭部的立場"},{"start":17212.489,"end":17234.361,"text":"好 謝謝徐副部長那請回到 接下來我請這個陸委會兩副主委那局長 還是繼續請教您因為這個所謂的十個措施裡面有一樣是所謂的共用廈門的這個祥安的機場我想請問一下這個局長這個所謂共用這個廈門的機場它的意義是什麼"},{"start":17235.515,"end":17249.369,"text":"這部分事實上中共官方在跟我們外離島的相關的互動過程當中都有在宣傳這一點也就是祥安機場因為今年年底可能要完成它的興建那中共提出來的一個"},{"start":17250.35,"end":17275.152,"text":"策略跟說法是認為說那祥安機場是國際機場那願意提供給台灣民眾特別是外地島的民眾同等的待遇可以盡量來使用祥安機場當成出國的一個機場那這樣的一個宣傳論述不是這一次才提到的事實上在過去這快一年的時間應該都有在談那第二個角度他們在宣傳的是祥安機場會開設很多的特殊的這種攤位"},{"start":17277.174,"end":17299.632,"text":"或店面那也歡迎我們的外離島民眾去申請租用所以它是有一套我們認為是對外離島統戰的一些宣傳的敘事在這一次的十項提議裡面有一個背後的一個圖像在這裡因為我更關心它是不是涉及到這個主權跟安全的問題那如果說祥安機場"},{"start":17300.475,"end":17322.347,"text":"那台灣的,比如說金門的居民,就是說你可以先到祥安機場,然後再回到金門,那會不會讓外界就認為說,那這個就是一個中國啦?就是說你就是在中國內部的同一個機場這樣繞來繞去?中國希望操作就是能夠有這樣的一個意向,確實它是往這方面在操作。那在安全這方面咧?"},{"start":17323.038,"end":17343.275,"text":"那安全的方面可能兩岸不管是未來祥安機場完成之後它的一些航線或是空域的管制可能還是要循跟我們政府的一個溝通的管道來進行必要的協調來避免產生這種可能飛航安全的問題那因為飛航安全它不應該是涉及到政治的雙方應該要好好來溝通討論"},{"start":17346.557,"end":17374.298,"text":"那這部分我再請教梁副主委就是涉及到說他們有特別提到說共用廈門機場那一樣我關心的是這個台灣主權跟安全的問題對所謂的共用就是他們現在就如同局長這樣講的就是說他們鼓勵或是號召廈門居民金門居民他以後可以不用再飛到桃園機場去出國他可以到祥安區長去走國際線"},{"start":17375.959,"end":17399.836,"text":"他們現在的主要宣傳是這樣但是我們比較考慮的是另外一個問題就是空域重疊的問題也就是說金門上義機場跟那個祥安機場是非常的近幾乎空域是可以重疊的但是當然如果說雙方有一個協調的話就是說在高度上面其實是可以在高度上面做協調的"},{"start":17401.597,"end":17412.593,"text":"雖然空域近但是因為高度可以有容受的空間是蠻大的所以這個部分我們希望說在安全上面這個才是我們主要的考慮"},{"start":17413.834,"end":17441.166,"text":"那到目前為止到目前為止我們的立場是這樣就是說上億機場它是先存在的一個機場那祥安機場他們是後來才興建的機場所以後來在國際上來講的話就是說後來興建的機場它在航線或是飛安高度上面等等它必須要尊重原來既有存在的機場這是我們的立場那我就是說再去轉位講就是說如果"},{"start":17442.066,"end":17452.843,"text":"金門的居民經由這個祥陽機場出入境沒有需要經過這個國境的檢查因為就從那邊出去了那我就以我想到的主權問題國際社會不會認為說台灣已經接受這個中國實質行政的管轄"},{"start":17458.016,"end":17484.159,"text":"對 在外離島民眾的出國的他的選擇那當然是民眾可以做這樣的選擇那也像委員所講的中共在政治操作上他就可以做這樣的一個操作所以他們一直在強調是同等待遇也就是認為說我們外離島民眾那跟中國大陸的民眾可以同等的來使用這個機場的權利那這是他的政治宣傳的操作對啊 因為我們出國是指從這一個"},{"start":17485.1,"end":17503.311,"text":"台灣出去嘛 出去其他的國家但是他們的出國是變成說你中國是同一個國家同一個國家出去那不一樣耶對這個要注意啦那那個剛剛那個安全的部分我再問一下最後再問一下兩副主委就是說因為你剛才講說金門機場是先於這個廈門機場那如果說我們這個未來啦未來放棄了這一個就是說未來這個"},{"start":17512.254,"end":17520.267,"text":"調度啦 空域的調度是由中方統一調度的話那是不是也會形成說我們也放棄了金門上空的這個航管的主權"},{"start":17521.024,"end":17542.965,"text":"我們不會由中方統一調度中方調度他們的我們調度我們的基本上不會有問題對 基本上不會有問題但是雙方必須要有一個默契就是說當雙方在航管上面它有一個高度的差要有一個高度的差異要出來它高度的差異出來的話它基本上安全上面就不會有問題但是如果說高度的差異沒出來"},{"start":17544.066,"end":17572.816,"text":"那當然就是這個會發生一些問題那目前為止這部分都還沒有討論到目前為止我想我們的立場就是對方要尊重先存在的機場那這個雙方要有一個默契謝謝局長 謝謝副主委 謝謝主席好 謝謝接下來請楊瓊英 楊瓊英 楊瓊英委員不在請徐富奎委員 徐富奎 徐富奎委員不在請陳冠廷 趙偉上台質詢"},{"start":17590.905,"end":17594.66,"text":"我們先請陸委會請陸委會梁副主委"},{"start":17608.094,"end":17622.314,"text":"副主委好今天稍早我們看到新聞裡面有提到巴西的駐台的代表他有提到說台灣是中國的一部分那不僅如此他說你們的鄭麗文主席不也是這麼說的嗎一次"},{"start":17622.794,"end":17648.07,"text":"作為藉口在媒體面前做出這樣子的表示外交部已經正式來去做嚴肅的抗議我想請教副主委對此有什麼看法要不要藉此機會也表達我國政府的看法這個就是我們所擔心的一些後果的其中之一可能對外國人來講他"},{"start":17650.554,"end":17664.188,"text":"他會看到說你們台灣最大在野黨在這個問題上面到底是什麼立場那對於中共來講如果能夠讓台灣最大在野黨能夠說出台灣問題是中國內政問題然後"},{"start":17668.431,"end":17687.6,"text":"不要讓外國人介入等等那個在政治上面就是非常非常大的勝利那所以他會對國際社會造成一個很錯誤的訊息那如果剛剛委員剛剛講的巴西代表這個事情我是沒看到新聞但如果有這樣的事情的話那就是"},{"start":17689.478,"end":17711.089,"text":"這個影響已經發生了影響已經發生了所以我剛剛一直講說所謂的什麼十項會台措施這十項會台措施基本上就是新平包舊酒而且總的算起來其實對台灣來說它的你說實質上的物質上的利益其實也不大"},{"start":17711.849,"end":17728.354,"text":"但是他所換得的卻是一個重大的宣傳勝利和統戰上面的勝利那這個對於台灣的國家生存是有重大影響的謝謝謝謝副主委我們請關局局長請局長"},{"start":17737.153,"end":17749.088,"text":"有沒有消息指出會不會他們用同樣的外交敘事模式跟這些傳統的金磚國家開始結成這樣子的情報的方式透過輿論來影響台灣的國際定位"},{"start":17751.752,"end":17780.637,"text":"我們有在注意也有在統整到底中共接觸哪一些國家那大概我們的關注重點有幾個面向第一個是哪些國家有跟中共在所謂的社中一中框架敘事配合到中共的立場這大概第一個面向第二面向是他們敘事的切入點是什麼那有的像今天早上委員提到的巴西他認為說台灣是中國的一部分那有的是他含蓄的表述他尊重所謂的一中原則或是各自的一中政策那有的表述是反對台獨"},{"start":17781.357,"end":17805.276,"text":"有的表述是引述到所謂2758號決議那其實有各種不同的作法那你知道一中原則跟一中政策歐洲國家有自己的一中政策那遵從一中原則的通常就是南南國家就是沙哈拉沙漠以南的國家或者是東南亞這些目前在開發中或者是比較未開發的國家那中國很常利用這種反殖民那種各種的"},{"start":17806.136,"end":17827.611,"text":"這種敘事模式來去促成他們這樣子的能量所以我剛才講的金鐘山各國我們要密切的注意哪幾個國家包含巴西南北俄羅斯特別是俄羅斯我們就不用多說了這些國家確實會有同樣的敘事模式包含這一次鄭麗文訪中的時候他特別提到日本的這個殖民的部分那也是同樣的同樣的一個敘事模式但是我必須要強調一件事情"},{"start":17828.351,"end":17849.836,"text":"德國日本過去在軍國主義專制主義之下他們對歐洲以及亞洲造成了巨大傷害我們都深在其中我們都理解這是錯的但也因此德國走向了民主的道路也因此日本放棄了軍國主義走向融入民主的道路那是文明的道路那是經濟改革之後的政治改革"},{"start":17850.276,"end":17874.58,"text":"同時我們也呼籲中國特別是中國在二三十年四五十年的這種高經濟成長之後他們的經濟成長確實是有很大的成就確實是讓很多人脫貧但他們需要的是政治改革就如同日本跟德國一樣如果不要造成區域的這種緊張的局勢升高如果他們要追求的是整體的國家的影響力增高首先他們要放棄武力犯台"},{"start":17875.14,"end":17903.299,"text":"我們都知道說任何的軍事干預會導致區域大國的整體的國力來衰退尤其是台灣海峽台灣海峽它必須扮演的這種航運運輸的角色是極端重要的傷害台灣同時也在傷害中國事實上傷害台灣就是在傷害整個印太地區這個是完全沒有一個人可以脫離的就連伊朗的這個戰爭它對我們世界的另外一端台灣 日本 韓國甚至菲律賓都緊急狀態"},{"start":17905.341,"end":17911.513,"text":"作戰戰爭是中國絕對不可以採取的做法我想我們對外的敘事也必須要思考要什麼樣的外交敘事"},{"start":17912.765,"end":17938.744,"text":"是要用憤怒的外交敘事還是有智慧的方式讓他們知道說我們跟他們不太一樣應該是說完全不一樣我正因為完全不同不代表說這就不能夠有對話我們還是鼓勵對話但是以實力作為基礎的對話那才是有效的對話沒有實力基礎的話你帶回來的是一張紙這張紙隨時都可以撕破就如同1930年代英國的前首相他說他帶回來這個時代的和平的隔年之後"},{"start":17939.845,"end":17959.708,"text":"二戰就全部的席捲歐洲只有實力才能夠達成和平只有國防的能量才能達成和平只有國防的能量加上對話才能達成和平缺一不可所以對於國民黨或者是在野黨想要跟中國對話我的態度也是一樣可以建立在國防自主"},{"start":17960.228,"end":17976.401,"text":"建立在國防的能力之上所以我們還是呼籲接下來我們的國防的特別條例裡面有許多就是像我們今天講的我們的海洋偵測等等的都必須要具備那這是我們的論述我也希望大家可以仔細思考一下是要每次只強調價值"},{"start":17977.802,"end":18005.126,"text":"或者是每次只強調利益台灣的價值跟台灣的利益到底是什麼要把它結合起來那這樣子的話我們在國際上面才會有說服力不要像過去這個就外交部斷交很多國家之後那一樣同樣一套那同樣一套證明沒有用新的做法包含新的外交部長他們就有他們新的做法出來了這其實都是可以做審閱都可以去思考的謝謝謝謝局長我們接下來請這一個國防部跟海委會"},{"start":18006.587,"end":18027.504,"text":"請國防部海委會委員好副部長好副部長這個剛才有幾位委員有提到說我們在識別這個船隻的這個狀況了那有些是當然是漁業署海委會可能會用AIS或者是VMS嘛那國防部有不同的系統我們這樣講這樣理解對不對"},{"start":18031.344,"end":18036.067,"text":"我們的雷達系統跟海巡是不一樣但是我們彼此分享雷型"},{"start":18060.704,"end":18073.483,"text":"是那在這樣的狀況之下我們到底要怎麼樣辨別目標物而且是特別我們今天有提到的報告物前面提到的這些目標非常的小那我怎麼知道我們看到它了那它是我們的還是對方的我們怎麼如何去知道"},{"start":18077.293,"end":18093.003,"text":"這邊跟委員報告我們對於海上目標掌握除了剛剛講的這幾個系統BMS IAS這些以外還有國防部提供的電偵措的所有的這些配套通通是納到我們這一個聯合勤捐針的範圍裡面聯合勤捐針不小心把友軍當成是對方的"},{"start":18096.38,"end":18117.773,"text":"另外這個對於小型目標的判別部分我們有幾個評估的標準第一個部分就是它是直接往這邊衝 航速超過我們的這個判斷標準另外一個部分它是不是直接衝案 另外一個部分它是從哪邊過來然後它過來以後它是朝哪個方向 這個都是我們的判別"},{"start":18122.134,"end":18145.579,"text":"這是我們判別的一個標準就算是不管是衛星也好或者是雷達也好或者是各種的監測體系我們必須要長時間不斷的堆疊你才能夠判別它的方向跟它的意圖嘛但是衛星的這個監測的時間有其局限性我們現在有沒有把這個東西克服了"},{"start":18147.201,"end":18170.641,"text":"跟委員報告,就是微光衛星影像部門,我們要大量的去採購相關的衛星的這個影像另外要建立長期要建立資料庫,如果這個目標進來以後我們沒有去識別,它在我們列達上面的顯示是沒有意義的所以要透過人工,透過相關的這些AI去判別說它對我是不是危險目標,我們再去做後續的做處理"},{"start":18171.201,"end":18188.8,"text":"那另外一部分的時候假設首先我們是做判別去做對目標的監測那有些時候可能不是對方做這樣子的做法可能也是我方 我們可能是友軍喔但是在友軍的部分我們現在有沒有完成去衝突化去衝突化的這個互操作性特別是對美國"},{"start":18189.821,"end":18216.96,"text":"我必須強調上次我們在開論壇的時候這些前海軍少將蒙哥馬利就有提到說台美的互相的這個操作區是糟透了他提到說這會導致無人載具沒有辦法有效識別而產生有軍的誤擊有軍的這種可能性的災難他說不僅僅是無人載具包含這個即時的就是說在我們的可能是我們的既得監跟對方的這個驅逐區他說他們要建立這種秘密通訊的話"},{"start":18218.061,"end":18236.346,"text":"如果是跟澳洲是完全整合的幾乎是可以及時的跟日韓數十分鐘可是跟台灣還要一兩天我必須要強調說我們現在想的所有的能力的獲得武器的獲得能力的獲得等等它是需要時間並且需要資金甚至是特別預算"},{"start":18237.186,"end":18252.397,"text":"但是這不是我們能夠我此時此刻我沒有辦法完全控制我必須還要說服在野黨但我們現在能夠控制的就是怎麼樣增強互相的可操作性那當然過去因為台灣的特殊的國際地位那美國可能會比較但是"},{"start":18257.46,"end":18284.61,"text":"現在此時不比以往了台灣的國際地位在增加台美之間的國際合作在增加是不是要思考首先從去衝突化到更好的整合讓台美之間的船舶也好或者是這些軍機軍艦全部都把它放在裡面能夠先從去衝突化開始再往上走這個是不是我們可以做的是不是請副部長可以簡單是謝謝委員的指教我們會往這個方向來努力盡快好吧因為"},{"start":18286.403,"end":18307.608,"text":"衝突可能是在明天 可能是在今天那如果沒有一個實現的話這個副隊長最近常去美國我想這個比任何武器的獲得都還要重要就是首先能夠確定敵我之間的這個去衝突的話跟友軍之間的這個秘密通訊的這個速度要提升這個應該是很具體的目標 好不好是好 謝謝謝謝"},{"start":18315.094,"end":18342.432,"text":"今天已登記質詢的委員除不在場以外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議有徐富奎委員、洪玉祥委員提出書面質詢請列入記錄並刊登公報委員書面及口頭質詢未及答覆的部分會要求補充資料者請相關機關兩週內以書面答覆委員有指定期限者從其鎖定另外也請國防部提供"},{"start":18345.855,"end":18357.866,"text":"中科院在吳彥廷的部分我們現在的初步的成果請提出書面資料那本日會議到此結束三會謝謝大家辛苦了"}]}},{"id":"168498","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168498","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5655ee4938da65e1f30737e179f7d5e581f6660fd2e3428908f0c425eaf037c410461491437e869a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"13:28:10 - 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日本 韓國甚至菲律賓都緊急狀態"},{"start":315.375,"end":321.547,"text":"作戰戰爭是中國絕對不可以採取的做法我想我們對外的敘事也必須要思考要什麼樣的外交敘事"},{"start":322.799,"end":348.768,"text":"是要用憤怒的外交敘事還是有智慧的方式讓他們知道說我們跟他們不太一樣應該是說完全不一樣我正因為完全不同不代表說這就不能夠有對話我們還是鼓勵對話但是以實力作為基礎的對話那才是有效的對話沒有實力基礎的話你帶回來的是一張紙這張紙隨時都可以撕破就如同1930年代英國的前首相他說他帶回來這個時代的和平的隔年之後"},{"start":349.888,"end":369.722,"text":"二戰就全部的席捲歐洲只有實力才能夠達成和平只有國防的能量才能達成和平只有國防的能量加上對話才能達成和平缺一不可所以對於國民黨或者是在野黨想要跟中國對話我的態度也是一樣可以建立在國防自主"},{"start":370.262,"end":386.475,"text":"建立在國防的能力之上所以我們還是呼籲接下來我們的國防的特別條例裡面有許多就是像我們今天講的我們的海洋偵測等等的都必須要具備那這是我們的論述我也希望大家可以仔細思考一下是要每次只強調價值"},{"start":387.836,"end":415.125,"text":"或者是每次只強調利益台灣的價值跟台灣的利益到底是什麼要把它結合起來那這樣子的話我們在國際上面才會有說服力不要像過去這個就外交部斷交很多國家之後那一樣同樣一套那同樣一套證明沒有用新的做法包含新的外交部長他們就有他們新的做法出來了這其實都是可以做審閱都可以去思考的謝謝謝謝局長我們接下來請這一個國防部跟海委會"},{"start":416.604,"end":437.521,"text":"請國防部海委會委員好副部長好副部長這個剛才有幾位委員有提到說我們在識別這個船隻的這個狀況了那有些是當然是漁業署海委會可能會用AIS或者是VMS嘛那國防部有不同的系統我們這樣講這樣理解對不對"},{"start":441.378,"end":446.101,"text":"我們的雷達系統跟海巡是不一樣但是我們彼此分享雷型"},{"start":470.738,"end":483.497,"text":"是那在這樣的狀況之下我們到底要怎麼樣辨別目標物而且是特別我們今天有提到的報告物前面提到的這些目標非常的小那我怎麼知道我們看到它了那它是我們還是對方的我們怎麼如何去知道"},{"start":487.328,"end":505.124,"text":"這邊跟委員報告我們對於海上目標的掌握除了剛剛講的這幾個系統PMS IAS這些以外還有國防部提供的電偵措的所有的這些配套通通是納到我們這一個聯合勤奸爭的範圍裡面另外對於不小心把友軍當成是對方的"},{"start":506.394,"end":527.792,"text":"另外這一個對於小型目標的判別部分我們有幾個評估的標準第一個部分就是它是直接往這邊衝航速超過我們的這個判斷標準另外一個部分它是不是直接衝案另外一個部分它是從哪邊過來然後它過來以後它是朝哪個方向所以說它的軌跡跟它的"},{"start":532.156,"end":555.616,"text":"這是我們判別的一個標準不管是衛星也好或者是雷達也好或者是各種的監測體系我們必須要長時間不斷的堆疊你才能夠判別它的方向跟它的意圖我們這樣來說吧對不對但是衛星的這個監測的時間有其局限性我們現在有沒有把這個東西克服了"},{"start":557.215,"end":580.414,"text":"跟委員報告,就是偽光衛星影像部分,我們要大量的去採購相關的衛星的這個影像另外要建立長期要建立資料庫,如果這個目標進來以後我們沒有去識別,它在我們列達上面的顯示是沒有意義的所以要透過人工,透過相關的這些AI去判別說它對我是不是威脅目標,我們再去做後續的處理"},{"start":581.235,"end":598.814,"text":"那另外一部分的時候假設首先我們是做判別去做對目標的監測那有些時候可能不是對方做這樣子的做法可能也是我方 我們可能是友軍喔但是在友軍的部分我們現在有沒有完成去衝突化去衝突化的這個互操作性特別是對美國"},{"start":599.855,"end":626.997,"text":"我必須強調上次我們在開論壇的時候這些前海軍少將這個蒙哥馬利就有提到說台美的互相的這個操作區是糟透了他提到說這會導致無人載具沒有辦法有效識別而產生有軍的誤擊有軍的這種可能性的災難他說不僅僅是無人載具包含這個即時的就是說在我們的可能是我們既得監跟對方的這個驅逐區他說他們要建立這種秘密通訊的話"},{"start":628.098,"end":646.368,"text":"如果是跟澳洲是完全整合的幾乎是可以及時的跟日韓數十分鐘可是跟台灣還要一兩天我必須要強調說我們現在想的所有的能力的獲得武器的獲得能力的獲得等等它是需要時間並且需要資金甚至是特別預算"},{"start":647.228,"end":665.454,"text":"但是這不是我們能夠我此時此刻我沒有辦法完全控制我必須還要說服在野黨但我們現在能夠控制的就是怎麼樣增強互相的可操作性那當然過去因為台灣的特殊的國際地位那美國可能會比較會re-locked但是"},{"start":667.474,"end":694.647,"text":"現在此時不比以往了台灣的國際地位在增加台美之間的國際合作在增加是不是要思考首先從去衝突化到更好的整合讓台美之間的船舶也好或者是這些軍機軍艦全部都把它放在裡面能夠先從去衝突化開始再往上走這個是不是我們可以做的是不是請副部長可以簡單是謝謝委員的指教我們會往這個方向來努力盡快好吧因為"},{"start":696.437,"end":717.646,"text":"衝突可能是在明天 可能是在今天那如果沒有一個實現的話這個部隊最近常去美國我想這個比任何武器的獲得都還要重要就是首先能夠先確定敵我之間的這個去衝突的話跟友軍之間的這個秘密通訊的這個速度要提升這個應該是很具體的目標 好不好是好 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李委員好局長辛苦了 那這個行政會剛結束了然後這個國台辦就釋出了這個所謂的所謂的十大的這個利多的一個措施 會台的措施那包含我們這個局長你也提到這個它有這個三層意義那核心的宣示就是台海河根站由北京說了算"},{"start":32.876,"end":44.915,"text":"然後呢 這個陸委會這邊也有提到就是說中共將兩岸的交流武器化 工具化然後呢 政治目的化那我想請教一下這個局長剛好這個"},{"start":49.243,"end":74.076,"text":"這個我想北京也是有用心就是在這一個可能在川習會五月川習會之前先提前辦了這個所謂的習政會那我想請教一下局長這個所謂的十大會台措施然後包含這個習政會那這個會不會影響到說這個五月份這個舉辦這個川習會的時候中共藉由拉攏台灣的反對黨"},{"start":75.1,"end":83.161,"text":"然後呢又藉由釋出這個十大的這一個所謂的會台的措施那會不會這個中共試圖想要營造一個說"},{"start":84.073,"end":110.363,"text":"反正台的問題就是一個中國內政的問題現在跟台灣也處得還不錯然後希望美國不用賣這麼多武器給台灣有沒有想要營造類似的這種效果事實上早上在跟媒體朋友說明的時候也大概是用這個觀點來切入因為就管局來講我們比較重視的還是中共對台的統戰跟策略操作的手法"},{"start":110.803,"end":140.212,"text":"那特別在說明的是這一次利用跟國內在野黨的交流那有看到在戰略面確實去凸顯在台海的核或戰的議題上那北京是有主導權的那以這樣的一個論述跟敘事來排除外力介入台海的情勢那另外也操作到在野黨可能對於北京傳統的對台政策立場的一個呼應來增加北京後續在川習會過程當中去處理到涉台議題的一些政治操作的手法"},{"start":141.313,"end":159.435,"text":"那這個部分也是我早上跟媒體朋友在說明的一個重點那所以說 因為現在我們的軍購的特別條例也不知道這個何時會審查因為冷凍期是到4月底 可能也到5月份了然後也不知道說5月份能不能如期的審查"},{"start":160.916,"end":178.545,"text":"這個請教一下局長那你認為說在川習會之前那對於這一個第一個在台灣就是說我不知道軍工特別條例能不能順利審查那第二個會不會影響到說您的評估會不會影響到說下一波川普這個有可能再賣第二批的武器給台灣"},{"start":180.01,"end":206.532,"text":"大概在這部分跟委員簡單說明一下就在川習會的過程當中我們當然不能夠排除中共可能會在涉台議題上去提到對美軍購的這個議題不過也跟委員做報告的是就我們所了解的一個狀況在美國跟中國互動過程當中只要涉及到所謂台美軍購議題的話美方的闡述立場事實上非常的明確認為這是美國一貫的一個政策"},{"start":206.972,"end":222.689,"text":"所以可能在川習會過程當中不能排除在這議題上會有一些各自表述或交鋒的一個過程那就我們的理解美國在對台政策它還是有一個延續性的那這部分我能不能再請我們國防部我們徐副部長來做一個說明"},{"start":225.017,"end":241.09,"text":"市委好我剛剛請教這一個蔡局長的問題您剛剛有聽到嗎是您最後一個問題是就是說啊就是說因為這個川習會在五月嘛那不曉得會不會影響到未來如果有第二批這個美方有在賣武器給台灣的話會不會影響到這個進程"},{"start":243.888,"end":268.948,"text":"當然我們現在跟美方還是溝通是順暢的到目前為止美方給我們的訊息我是指戰爭部給我們的訊息就是一切仍然如常進行目前還沒有受到這個沒有受到經營部其他的那也有可能就是說不管這個國內在野黨跟中國是怎樣的互動那美方跟台灣的關係也不會受到影響"},{"start":270.186,"end":288.045,"text":"我們跟戰爭部的這個溝通是順暢那既有的那些已經國會知會的那些目前那個保證信函都已經拿到了然後目前都是順暢至於未來的我們也問過那戰爭部的立場是應該仍然會照常進行這是戰爭部的立場"},{"start":292.509,"end":313.015,"text":"好 謝謝徐副部長那請回到 接下來我請這個陸委會兩副主委那局長 還是繼續請教您因為這個所謂的十個措施裡面有一樣是所謂的共用廈門的這個祥安的機場我想請問一下這個局長這個所謂共用這個廈門的機場它的意義是什麼"},{"start":315.53,"end":329.389,"text":"這部分事實上中共官方在跟我們外離島的相關的互動過程當中都有在宣傳這一點也就是祥安機場因為今年年底可能要完成它的興建那中共提出來的一個"},{"start":330.37,"end":348.722,"text":"策略跟說法是認為說那祥安機場是國際機場那願意提供給台灣民眾特別是外地島的民眾同等的待遇可以盡量來使用祥安機場當成出國的一個機場那這樣的一個宣傳論述不是這一次才提到的事實上在過去這快一年的時間應該都有在談"},{"start":349.983,"end":377.313,"text":"那第二個角度他們在宣傳的是祥安機場會開設很多的特殊的這種攤位或店面那也歡迎我們的外離島民眾去申請租用所以它是有一套我們認為是對外離島統戰的一些宣傳的敘事在這一次的十項提議裡面有一個背後的一個圖像在這裡因為我更關心它這個是不是涉及到這個主權跟安全的問題"},{"start":378.573,"end":402.384,"text":"那如果說祥安機場,那台灣的,比如說金門的居民就是說你可以先到祥安機場,然後再回到金門那會不會讓外界就認為說,那這個就是一個中國啦就是說你就是在中國內部的同一個機場下到而到去中國希望操作就是能夠有這樣的一個意向確實它是往這方面在操作那在安全這方面咧?"},{"start":403.052,"end":423.351,"text":"那安全的方面可能兩岸不管是未來祥安機場完成之後它的一些航線或是空域的管制可能還是要循跟我們政府的一個溝通的管道來進行必要的協調來避免產生這種可能飛航安全的問題那因為飛航安全它不應該是涉及到政治的應該雙方應該要好好來溝通討論"},{"start":426.574,"end":454.335,"text":"那這部分我再請教這個兩副主委就是涉及到說他們有特別提到說共用廈門機場那一樣我關心的是這個台灣主權跟安全的問題對所謂的共用就是他們現在就如同局長這樣講的就是說他們鼓勵或是號召廈門居民金門居民他以後可以不用再飛到桃園機場去出國他可以到祥安區長去走國際線"},{"start":455.976,"end":479.85,"text":"他們現在的主要宣傳是這樣但是我們比較考慮的是另外一個問題就是空域重疊的問題也就是說金門上義機場跟那個祥安機場是非常的近幾乎空域是可以重疊的但是當然如果說雙方有一個協調的話就是說在高度上面其實是可以在高度上面做協調的"},{"start":481.611,"end":492.625,"text":"雖然空域近但是因為高度可以有容受的空間是蠻大的所以這個部分我們希望說在安全上面這個才是我們主要的考慮"},{"start":493.871,"end":517.12,"text":"那到目前為止到目前為止我們的立場是這樣就是說上義機場它是先存在的一個機場那祥安機場他們是後來才興建的機場所以後來在國際上來講的話就是說後來興建的機場它在航線或是飛安高度上面等等它必須要尊重原來既有存在的機場這是我們的立場"},{"start":518.12,"end":536.775,"text":"好 那我就是說 蔡局長我要講就是說 如果啦 金門的居民經由這個祥陽機場出入境沒有需要經過這個國境的檢查 因為就從那邊出去了那 我就以我想到的主權問題 國際社會不會認為說 那台灣已經接受這個中國的實質行政的管轄"},{"start":538.053,"end":564.166,"text":"對 在外離島民眾的出國的他的選擇那當然是民眾可以做這樣的選擇那也像委員所講的中共在政治操作上他就可以做這樣的一個操作所以他們一直在強調是同等待遇也就是認為說我們外離島民眾那跟中國大陸的民眾可以同等的來使用這個機場的權利那這是他的政治宣傳的操作對啊 因為我們出國是指從這一個"},{"start":565.126,"end":583.338,"text":"台灣出去嘛 出去其他的國家 但是他們的出國是變成說你中國是同一個國家 同一個國家出去那不一樣耶 這個要注意啦那那個 剛剛那個安全的部分我再問一下 最後再問一下兩副主委 就是說因為你剛才講說金門機場是先於這個下面這個機場那如果說我們這個未來啦 未來放棄了這一個 就是說未來這個"},{"start":592.271,"end":600.299,"text":"調度啦 空域的調度是由中方統一調度的話那是不是也會形成說我們已經放棄了金門上空的這個航管的這個主權"},{"start":601.058,"end":622.979,"text":"我們不會由中方統一調度中方調度他們的我們調度我們的基本上不會有問題但是雙方必須要有一個默契就是說當雙方在航管上面他有一個高度的差要有一個高度的差異要出來他高度的差異出來的話他基本上安全上面就不會有問題但是如果說高度的差異沒出來"},{"start":624.081,"end":640.2,"text":"那當然就是這個會發生一些問題那目前為止這部分都還沒有討論到目前為止我想我們的立場就是對方要尊重先存在的機場那這個雙方要有一個默契謝謝局長 謝謝副主委 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謝謝"},{"start":16.041,"end":30.541,"text":"副主委好副部長好副主委好來引向加持無人艇應對海上滋擾無人艇建案訓練戰備足夠並行先請教副主委我國政府下一頁我國政府網路三個月"},{"start":32.803,"end":51.793,"text":"輕擾1.7億次那這裡面我們看到了什麼包括不只這個啊官方有什麼中共來的是戰機跟海警船灰色地帶有漁船橡皮艇網路深擾人員受傷等等等請問一下我們副主委除了攻擊擾台海警船等官方手段漁船橡皮艇網路威脅這個您覺得是不是也很嚴重"},{"start":53.895,"end":77.185,"text":"各位報案這是值得關注的問題好 所以我們今天都在關心來 下一頁我們小型船艇的入侵難偵測用SAR還是用影像觀測小型船艇雷達難偵測 岸基雷達很難看到那麼小的目標體積又小漁船的話它可能關閉或夜召AIS對不對所以難以查獲 又可以製造假象 又可以逆行蹤所以說我們海巡很吃重"},{"start":77.825,"end":101.741,"text":"要靠你們海巡 還有燈檢 可是燈檢的皮革分泌船隻老化請問一下有沒有更高效的應對方式 譬如用SAR核心攻擊雷達還是用影像觀測 副主任你怎麼看剛委員提到的都是方法之一另外我們現在用高科技的這個無人機部分也是一個方法之一另外我們優化我們的所有這個零二氰針針的相關設備也可以徵收到相關的設備"},{"start":102.501,"end":128.838,"text":"可以建設建議你們除了無人機之外還有什麼無人艇來往下看之前我跟您海巡都有建議過無人艇的運作模式無人艇的好處它不會累它可以在待命模式然後呢出去執行任務然後它還可以返航那這時候呢很重要的我們都知道目前的無人載具啊自動巡標自主導控很重要那就無人艇來講要訓練它就要影像識別要日間的夜間的這需要高階鏡面需要紅外線這個大概是無人艇的運作模式往下看"},{"start":129.679,"end":149.658,"text":"好 那麼如果是搭配海巡也有這種做法 比如說我們無人艇搭配無人機自動巡航 那麼像這個辨識目標後 它就接近驅離那如果以海巡來講 我們主要是驅離嘛 哪些環節你覺得如果用無人艇來協助海巡對這些不明船舶或灰色滋擾 您覺得有哪些地方可以加強的"},{"start":152.659,"end":173.634,"text":"我非常佩服委員 委員也經常提供先進的資訊給我我這邊特別要回答委員海巡組在這次特別任性條例裡面有編列了一筆預算也就是專門做水面的溫庭跟水下的溫宅局部分另外在空中的部分也都是並行在一起來處理"},{"start":175.115,"end":195.835,"text":"這三者來聯合起來就可以做成三維的立體的聯合性偵測的部分那另外無人艇主要的好處就是它自來時間很長然後也可以維護我們人員在服務群上的安全另外對於風險高風險的這些船舶譬如說是這個可疑的船舶那我們用無人艇先去先徵收然後也可以保護我們人員的安全是的"},{"start":196.235,"end":213.223,"text":"所以吳仁廷出任務可以透過AI加持他需要影像資料來加以訓練因為影像辨識跟自動尋標你要AI是自動化辨識需要大量的影像要有模型訓練要準確還能識破偽裝請問海巡組要如何取得大量的海上平面影像資料庫"},{"start":215.894,"end":235.573,"text":"除了我們平常聯合輕針針以外還有國防部跟友軍提供的這些資訊以外另外我們從空中的這個偵搜的也可以做到很好 你講到空中那我們來看一下往下看跟中跟追蹤是不太一樣的文人挺訓練學校的影像呢如果說今天我們透過高空的偵蹤像瑞恩二行"},{"start":236.354,"end":254.64,"text":"上面往下俯瞰這時候看到的是一樣是一種資料但是無人艇如果他要自主自主導控他需要的是什麼他需要的是水平的圖像不然的話你要在瑞淵上面告訴你來船在哪裡船在哪裡因為你分不出誰是誰所以呢無人艇他是需要水平的還是需要垂直的影像"},{"start":256.249,"end":275.269,"text":"水平水平很好所以目前我就往下走了好 那個水平影像我們給你一個參考的例子大家有聽過Google的街景車對不對它在隨著道路這樣走它可以把這個都市的3D影像測會出來但是也有人說那個計程車滿街跑啊"},{"start":276.21,"end":281.554,"text":"計程車上面有那個行車記錄器啊如果要知道的不是道路周邊的建築是道路上的車輛的話搞不好計程車上面的行車記錄器就會成為影像的取得來源您覺得如果以這兩個做比喻"},{"start":291.221,"end":293.463,"text":"您覺得未來海上的平面影像是要透過專屬的配置的船艦去取得還是可以用一些其他的作業的船隻幫我們順便取得海面上我們的守備海域上相關的影像 船舶的影像"},{"start":307.711,"end":335.341,"text":"跟尾巴這兩個都是方法之一那其實如果是針對特定的標的特定的地方特定我們還是建議用那個有目的性的專屬的船艦那另外如果廣域的部分這一個部分我們有很多的方式譬如說我們的漁船譬如說我們其他在航的艦船艇還有其他的商務員都可以從事也幫我們做這件事情所以我知道從高空的影像現在影像資料庫有得買"},{"start":336.192,"end":351.99,"text":"但是那是很多國家他們通過衛星大量收集的但是我們海巡巡弋的防衛我們不用到歐洲不用到北海我們有台灣附近的海域這個海域的空間有限我們集中取得這水瓶的影像資料這個我們請海巡去研究一下好再往下走"},{"start":353.692,"end":375.17,"text":"好 那麼請教一下 其實除了無人艇 除了海巡之外 軍方也在可以使用我們看一下 如果以FDA無人機跟無人艇來看的話大概無人機跟無人艇在我們軍事上的使用大概有幾個不一樣無人機是一次性的 而且訓練的損耗很高無人艇就算它有攻擊型 它在沒有攻擊後 它還是可以平安返航無人機比較困難"},{"start":378.072,"end":391.502,"text":"無人機的迭代更新很快無人艇的迭代更新沒那麼快所以基本上我們無人機會用買的但是無人艇的部分其實有一種可能就是租賃無人艇應用場景多元是否應該全部買到我請問副部長您看法呢您覺得未來軍方在建置無人機跟無人艇它的一個取得的方式有沒有不同"},{"start":402.146,"end":427.867,"text":"現在的確如委員所講這個無人機不只FPV啦它這個因為疊帶有針尖型的不同的是的確是它的那個疊帶更新的確是很快所以我們像我們特別預算的話我們是逐年它都要改變標準分批逐年買對 一定要這樣子但是無人艇的基本上我來往下看其實無人艇呢我們就以永陰高校機跟主力戰機來看好了我們的永陰高校機我們是自製的"},{"start":428.968,"end":451.271,"text":"它的推力 相關的性能 雖然較主力在於消訓一點但最大的差別 它的上面的電子偵控的電控系統呢 它比較沒有那麼先進因為訓練的時候 你不需要直接雷達射控都OK但是呢 如果我們用無人艇來說今天如果我們國家建置無人艇的一個部隊 假設要一千艘"},{"start":452.252,"end":473.732,"text":"那你要先什麼 先訓練人員嘛那這時候有沒有考慮過先要有一個用教育訓練為主的無人艇用租賃的方式來提供給海軍包括說我們有海軍專長訓練中心那無人機跟無人艇差別在嘛無人機如果訓練不好掉下來就砸了無人艇不會 但是無人艇要什麼 要維修所以呢無人艇的建軍"},{"start":474.753,"end":490.183,"text":"除了我們一線作戰用的軍備要用購買的之外有沒有可能考慮用本土來建立我們訓練就像永硬一樣用這種方式來用租賃的方式提供售後服務還可以迭代更新的方式來作為我們海軍建置我們無人艇部隊的一個方法各位請海軍三分長恢復來請"},{"start":497.303,"end":520.393,"text":"跟委員報告一下我們訓練的這個部分我們那個無人艇因為我們主要的目的是用來供洗所以就算要租賃的話也必須要廠商願意去產製那個跟我們自殺型無人艇一模一樣的艇才有辦法做訓練使用所以說永英跟我們的主力戰機難道不能相容嗎"},{"start":521.735,"end":528.497,"text":"對不對 所以我們空軍用無人 泳鷹 泳鷹做高校機它如果正在戰爭的時候 它裝上了最先進的射控雷達它裝上了武裝 它也是一個戰機啊所以無人艇它在 我只是說在無人艇因為它好處是什麼它訓練的時候的損耗跟無人機是不同的它浮在水上嘛 操作失誤也不會全毀嘛所以是請海軍思考一下未來我們海軍在建設無人艇建軍的時候除了購買先進 最先進的這種自殺性的無人艇"},{"start":551.044,"end":551.747,"text":"它有很好的反干扰很好的增光"},{"start":555.694,"end":579.626,"text":"一個控制設備,很好的電子反制設備之外那麼在訓練的時候不需要開這個嘛訓練的時候我們教學他會操作他會,因為他要自主導航那麼這種情況之下是不是海軍在建制無人艇部隊的時候也應該參考空軍的主力戰機的方式自主研發我們本土型的類似勇鷹的這樣的高校機讓我們的海軍的人才培訓可以跟著他使用的器材與時俱進,可以嗎?對,做我們的練習參考"},{"start":582.287,"end":603.721,"text":"好 謝謝 那我最後就是請副副長跟海委會 海委會請評估海象影像資料庫的建立方式最後一頁及內容形式 好不好回去評估一下除了高空的 水平的 水平的除了專船之外是不是也可以考慮其他船舶來提供 可以嗎可以好 副部長 那麼請國防部就無人艦艇採購模式是我居足夠併行的可能提出說明報告 可以嗎"},{"start":605.262,"end":621.614,"text":"是 謝謝謝謝委員指示好 那在最後一點時間在上週我們在場的召委我們的陳召委他舉辦了一個海上防衛無人論壇我去聽了一點小段我覺得非常的精彩內容非常豐富不曉得我們國防部有沒有請人去參考有沒有有沒有人請人去收集那邊的意見好像沒有受邀建議你們不是受邀沒有受邀要主動去關心瞭解如果你們有人去收集這些相關的意見"},{"start":635.085,"end":647.111,"text":"我是持肯定開放的態度我覺得這個論壇辦得非常好如果國安部有去多收集民間的聲音也可以參考如果你們參考的資料還不夠你也可以提供給我一份讓我來參考一下可以嗎"},{"start":648.936,"end":667.856,"text":"好 謝謝委員那個 朝委不好意思我講錯了 我講錯了有來有來是不是因為我不知道 不好意思不好意思OK 有有有有來啦齁那如果你們那個報告除了內參機敏的部分以外的部分可以給我們也參考一下因為我覺得辦得很好我們希望未來我們國家建軍防衛的方向應該是軍民各方面重複來進行好不好好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168495","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168495","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5655ee4938da65e1e1c746091bc6ea0881f6660fd2e3428908f0c425eaf037c42f230d750febacb15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃建賓","委員發言時間":"12:53:34 - 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本席也希望世界和平 兩岸友好共存那這次正席會就是藉由意見交流 衝到兩岸友好的共榮的契機中國大陸同時也公布對台灣的實相利多 例如恢復上海福建自由省食品輸入的解禁然後指甲師等等這些措施"},{"start":24.861,"end":38.789,"text":"那執政黨一直說這是國民黨跟共產黨的政治交易本期在強調其實沒有什麼叫政治交易我們只是打開交流的大門那現在大門打開了那中共也是隨隨善意後續要怎麼做還是要回歸到兩岸的官方去來談"},{"start":39.87,"end":64.136,"text":"那昨天其實有媒體採訪台東的一個親農對這次政協會的看法他的回答很簡單他說我是想要養家糊口哪裡有市場就把農產品往哪裡賣他們不在乎政治的議題所以希望也陸委會跟我們相關單位也能夠好好的跟中共大陸來談解決台東農產品銷售的問題讓農民可以活下去那我回到今天質詢的議題我們有請那個國安局局長請國安局蔡局長"},{"start":69.039,"end":90.804,"text":"好 謝謝主席 黃委員好局長好 局長 上個禮拜有跟您討論就是4月10號美伊停火談判的情況要求說國安局一定要確實掌握各項的變數那提供相關的訊息給各單位做提早的準備那很不幸美伊談判破局那川普說他在12號要表示他要封鎖赫姆茲艾俠"},{"start":91.644,"end":106.16,"text":"那美軍也宣布說在美東時間13號的10點要針對進出伊朗港口所有海上交通實施封鎖但不阻礙來飛伊朗港口的船隻通過荷姆斯海峽的航行自由"},{"start":106.801,"end":128.859,"text":"那雖然說美軍表示他不會影響他國的船隻的航行但是是不是會影響石油的運輸還有待觀察那如果這個戰爭持續下去那絕對會影響我國的這個經濟所帶來的這個負面的影響那請國安局這邊也務必要確實掌握各項的情資讓我們行政院還有相關各部門能夠提早因應然後回復我國這個經濟能源的安全"},{"start":129.56,"end":142.495,"text":"有 這部分上次跟委員在交換意見委員有特別提醒那我也跟委員說明事實上過去這一段時間從2月28號美伊戰爭之後我們在跟國際情報交流的重點之一就是美伊戰爭情勢的一個變化"},{"start":144.557,"end":166.345,"text":"我上禮拜跟委員還有媒體說明的時候也提到那美國政府現在的策略大概一方面是極限的施壓凋渡軍力來對伊朗施加相關的一個壓力那也跟以色列方面做非常縝密的軍事行動的協調那另一方面就是透過巴基斯坦來進行外交的磋商所以才會有委員所看到日前三方的一個談判的一個過程"},{"start":167.225,"end":188.32,"text":"那不過我覺得雙方事實上對於談判還是都蠻積極投入的那我會這樣的一個說明是因為美方派出來的談判團隊是陣容非常的堅強位階很高由副總統來帶隊那伊朗方面也是美方這邊大概有快兩三百人的談判團隊伊朗這邊有七十幾人的談判團隊由他們的國會議長帶外交部部長帶央行的行長那代表雙方是很願意去進行討論"},{"start":193.684,"end":213.154,"text":"只是雙方的一個基本的立場跟關切目前還沒有辦法完全聚焦包括伊朗能不能來生產濃縮鈾的這些原料那以及荷姆茲海峽後續是不是要開放以及可不可以收取通行費的問題也都還沒有具體的結論那另外對於伊朗要解除國際制裁的部分那美方也不願意在這個階段來讓步"},{"start":215.175,"end":241.497,"text":"所以根本說明是他還是在一個過程當中那可能我們後續再看雙方磋商的一個變化以及美國在談判可能陷入了僵局之下他的極限施壓手段有沒有來迫使伊朗做進一步的妥協好 謝謝局長非常詳細的說明 希望讓我們持續的關注會會 委員上次有提醒謝謝局長 接下來局長請休息接下來我想請國防部跟海委會一起上來配訓請國防部副部長還有海委會"},{"start":249.797,"end":263.033,"text":"9號跟10號金門沿海分別傳出中國籍的漁船入侵的消息那這兩個案件都是由海巡署來查緝海巡署請教副主委署長那海巡署目前查處的情況如何請簡短的說明就好"},{"start":264.426,"end":280.827,"text":"那艘船是因為那個海箱不好然後沒有細菌然後漂流到這個岸基來那目前這個案子已經處理好了也就是對方放棄那個船然後由我們用這個廢棄物的這個方法來做處理是"},{"start":282.148,"end":309.393,"text":"學長 那個中國小型船隻或者是漁船入侵台灣海域已經不是單一事件那過去也發生過像2025年、2024年都各別發生像中國人是搭乘橡皮艇從觀音海水域場上岸然後以及中國人民駕駛小艇從福州進入淡水河然後一直到他停靠在淡水碼頭才被民眾舉報那這些案件凸顯出我國針對這個小型漁船還有徵收的盲點那尤其是小型船隻它會藉由這個"},{"start":311.274,"end":338.272,"text":"反雷達解的這個面積太小還有電磁波反射訊號太弱等等以及包括什麼海浪的這些干擾啊就是避開我們就是發現這不容易被我們我國的雷達所偵測到那也就是因為這樣穿過我國的海岸的防線這不僅僅影響到我國海岸的安全它更是侵害到我國的這個漁權那國安局今天包括也有指出這個弱點就是說針對這些必須建置科技化系統化的"},{"start":340.593,"end":365.32,"text":"然後也針對海上漁權 海上的船隻的安全跟查緝那這個是海巡署的工作那本席今天看到海巡署有提到這個要科證規劃籌建最先進雷達設備並導入AI智能自動判讀功能提升對小型目標之偵測跟辨識效能外也積極的規劃籌建紅外線影像系統及環島智慧型暗記監控系統"},{"start":366.32,"end":383.672,"text":"那署長從2024年中國小型船隻入侵台灣本島以來已經快兩年那這段時間海巡署對於我們海洋防衛的弱點補強有哪些具體的成效還有扯棄的這個成效有哪些海巡署要花多久的時間可以建置完善我國海洋跟海岸巡邏員工作簡單回答"},{"start":384.593,"end":401.072,"text":"公務員報告那這種小案子發生以後我們除了在勤務上精進以外我們對雷達操作人員包括運用這些科技設備的人員我們有做一系列不斷的教育訓練那不斷的精進這些徵收技能另外對於雷達的運用"},{"start":402.854,"end":427.173,"text":"就現有的部分我們是持續在做優化那未來在那個國土防衛戰線的預算裡面就有編列我們這些優化的這些更高規格的這個雷達更高規格的紅外線跟更高規格的岸際監控系統那我們會在116年之前會全部建置完畢也就是目前對於徵收的效能會大幅度的這個優化"},{"start":428.154,"end":456.428,"text":"那我想未來對於這個小軍目標創案的問題我們會這一個會大幅度的減少讓海域更安全謝謝署長 署長 我要分析一下 請問跟海軍的工作不同海軍他負責的是海上的作戰海巡是負責海域的執法那千萬不要因為這些防衛的漏洞影響到我國海上的安全跟漁民的權益那接下來我想要請教我們次長次長 我們在什麼樣的情況之下會打開AIS的訊號"},{"start":458.925,"end":473.053,"text":"市長簡單說明就好您是說什麼船隻在什麼情況之下軍艦會打開AIS的訊號我們請海軍常務長回答我也好我是海軍常務長軍艦基本上我們AIS是不開啟的不開啟他有沒有開啟的時候什麼情況他都不會開啟嗎不會"},{"start":485.03,"end":508.448,"text":"謝謝市長,我想軍艦的執行非常的特殊,因為你不開啟的原因是怕會洩漏行蹤,這是國防安全的問題,那你不開的話,你要怎麼知道這是哪一種軍艦?我們是不是只有透過無人機或者是衛星混合合成的孔鏡雷達影像主動來證收,然後使用的是這樣子嗎?會不會這是手段之一?"},{"start":509.249,"end":523.611,"text":"那看起來我們手段其實也是很有限嘛就在這個幾個方法對不對我們有很多多元的方法我們可以掌握解放軍的建設OK 謝謝三豐今天你報告公布有提到跟海巡署執行這個偵查有關的這個資料的互通那但共軍"},{"start":524.833,"end":540.939,"text":"海上的這個軍艦偵查應該是海軍負責吧那所以海委會主委管主委他PO這個海面態勢圖應該是國防部提供的那雖說過去我們會隱藏一些敏感的資料避免被共軍掌握到我國的偵訪的方式但"},{"start":542.366,"end":570.2,"text":"共軍他仍然可以透過我國既有的偵查武器去推敲你是怎麼進行那來進行這個反偵測的動作那國防部2024年其實我們2024年的時候有有一個改變中共解放軍進入台海周邊空域活動示意圖的公布的圖紙就是把那個共軍我們查到共軍的機型啊飛行的軌跡啊船艦的資料都給他去除那甚至在我們這個相關的影像上在進行重置目的是為什麼就是"},{"start":570.74,"end":589.329,"text":"我們要避免共軍會從這些資料裡面探測出我軍可能的偵測方式嘛那從中間獲得這個武器的參數的資料來演算出我反反制你的方法嘛是這樣子對不對 是這樣子沒錯對不對是不是這個意思 是 人人回答委員好 我是情報次長次長是不是這樣子剛剛您所講的"},{"start":591.906,"end":605.556,"text":"大部分都是對的我們要做這些示意的圖主要的目的是一方面要滿足民眾知的權利另外一方面我們還是要兼顧到勤資的來源還有一些徵收的手段的機密性"},{"start":607.057,"end":634.015,"text":"其實本席非常支持適當的公佈我國周邊沿海空域的偵查資料我們同時也要恪恪我們要恪指周邊的國家你不要做違法的事情但是是不是要需要到詳細到連船艦的號碼選號都公佈我覺得這個都可以再斟酌啦應該是採取風險較小的方式來進行會比較好畢竟現在電子偵查的技術日新月異如果你相關的武器參數被敵軍掌握"},{"start":637.377,"end":665.097,"text":"反制的這個措施我覺得這對台灣的國防也不是好事情那這方面我是也請國安局國防部跟海巡署務必也做好這相關的這些防範措施我們不要因為這個急功耗力影響事大讓台灣安全產生黑洞嘛那另外最後我利用一點時間就是要跟海巡署反映一件事情就是蘇長台東有漁民來跟本席反映說有外縣市搭載大陸漁工的漁船在台東台東12海里內的範圍來捕魚"},{"start":666.678,"end":683.149,"text":"那這個部分我們也要請海巡署同仁多加留意然後查證倘若有這樣的事情也請海巡單位務必嚴格的查緝這些不肖的船隻然後維護這些守法於民的這些權益好 沒問題 我們會查證好 謝謝署長 謝謝謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"168494","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168494","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5655ee4938da65e1da115e44129f38b681f6660fd2e34289c80866d4b6cb3fd66eb0d0d8684cdce65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","委員發言時間":"12:40:18 - 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我們先請國安局局長請國安局蔡局長謝謝主席 薛恩好"},{"start":14.781,"end":41.421,"text":"我想先問一下因為我最近在新聞上也看到了好幾起就是說有不具名的國安人士然後呢是表示說那就是有一些比如說像是可能戰爭相關的啊或很多議題那這個中共他會用認知作戰的方式非常快速的把這個議題放到台灣的政論節目上面去討論請問一下這樣子的國安人士的說法那國安局這邊是"},{"start":43.202,"end":69.391,"text":"什麼態度啊對 中共大概在對台的認知作戰委員剛剛講到的那是一種方式所以你認為確實是有說透過台灣的政論節目去做認知作戰對 它可能會透過一些議題的操作跟傳散那也有可能會影響到我們包括平面媒體或政論節目以及各種網路社群的討論所以是中繼的影響還是直接跟政論節目的互動"},{"start":70.644,"end":89.395,"text":"之前有案例是有直接的互動我應該也記得那個案例嘛那個案例不是後來沒了嗎所以有喔沒有那個案例後來已經被送偵辦司法機關在偵辦是喔那他偵辦就也好久了也沒看到進度啊因為那個時候我知道我知道我知道我沒有叫你回答這個偵查中的事情只是說"},{"start":89.815,"end":101.74,"text":"我只是很疑惑就是說當初不是電視台然後講說沒有這件事情然後主持人也出來講說沒有這件事情但是你們掌握是你們仍然認為說這是一個我就是有情知的你們認為有這樣的情知是不是那這個電視台可能今天沒有在但蠻尷尬的"},{"start":107.543,"end":113.985,"text":"那就讓他繼續進到這個對 我們尊重司法偵辦的證據就讓他繼續去偵辦但是謝謝你告訴我說原來你們是認為有這個情資然後確實有有 當時我就公開這樣講了我們是有相關的情資我的意思是說當這個電視台他們都否認之後你們仍然認為你們情資掌握是無誤的嘛是這麼說嘛 對不對對 我們有情資好 那了解了可是問題是說我們在講認知作戰的時候是用什麼樣的一個觀察點這一點我覺得我要跟您做一個討論"},{"start":136.152,"end":152.404,"text":"比如說像最近有在討論印度移工的事情我想問一下印度移工的議題討論你覺得這是來自於中共的任職作戰嗎我的印象當中當初這個議題出來是曾經有一波的媒宣的處理"},{"start":152.964,"end":168.042,"text":"媒宣的處理,我問的是是不是來自於中共的認知作戰?中共的有一些,我應該知道以我們的技術能量我們可以去進行相關的帳號的溯源IP的查找那有一些IP我們只要判斷大概就知道是境外或是來自於中共"},{"start":168.422,"end":184.489,"text":"我可以看一下當時公視有做這樣的一個報導然後呢也讓NHK做了一個報導他提到的是呢台灣民主實驗室是用裡面的留言或是文章的詞彙認定是認知作戰的比如說呢他提到了假設說這個"},{"start":186.83,"end":205.448,"text":"人認為呢 假如台灣政府真是缺心眼這個 word use for stupid is also one use in the mainland not in Taiwan所以這個當時民主實驗室是這樣子去做一個解釋我看下一張投影片 上面有寫 你可以看英文的部分"},{"start":205.828,"end":223.247,"text":"也就是說比如說盜竊跟竊盜這個用法或是如果你講的缺心眼像類似這樣子的一個詞彙的運用被用為說不是台灣常見的使用用語的話就會被界定為認知作戰嗎這樣的一個界定會不會太過於狹隘了"},{"start":225.326,"end":237.358,"text":"就這部分來講當然透過現在的一些爬蟲程式可以針對一些內容來做一些篩慮那我剛才在跟委員說明我們可能除了內容以外我們還會判斷那個船上的管道是不是一個異常帳號"},{"start":238.547,"end":262.453,"text":"那這個也是一個輔助來判斷是不是中共傳善的一個根據您剛剛提到就是說有關於說所謂的印度移工的這個事情是當時你認為說有當時因為我們在講當時有這個中共的這個認知作戰在裡面可是呢我們可以看到像這樣子的一個報導他在2025年的10月的時候被公視揭露說他認為說當時有這個情況嘛"},{"start":265.094,"end":280.939,"text":"可是其實在討論的過程當中2024年勞動部確實就跟印度簽署了MOU那為什麼還是認定說這個叫做認知作戰就對一般民眾來說會覺得說確實這個你看確實當初本來說是假訊息這個勞動部在112年12月20號的時候說"},{"start":291.141,"end":310.075,"text":"引進印度移工當然有一個差別啦就是他有講到10萬名這個部分是假訊息他是一起講的這點我也要幫忙說明那但是呢這個事情沒過多久之後馬上的那就在100在這個很快你可以看到就馬上簽訂了這個MOU所以"},{"start":313.457,"end":333.821,"text":"這個事情只是因為要已經要簽署了然後還沒有公開那他就被認為說是政治作戰還是說呢你們用什麼樣一個標準跟方法去界定因為我們現在很擔心一件事情就是民眾有怨言的就你今天有一個議題就算他一開始呢他的社員他可能你認為說有幾個中共的什麼IP在幹嘛的"},{"start":336.562,"end":356.198,"text":"但我們還是要區分說這個事情是不是台灣民眾所關心的如果這個訊息是台灣民眾所關心所建議然後能認為說有問題的不能把民怨等同於認知作戰即便裡面或許有人在煽風點火我不排除也不否認裡面有人可能在煽風點火"},{"start":357.239,"end":375.551,"text":"但是它跟民怨之間就真的台灣有民怨對於是不是要開放印度移工這是一個事實那裡面小部分的人煽風點火這可能在任何的一個議題裡面都會出現中共它嘗試做這樣的方式可是民眾並不是因為中共做了認知作戰的煽風點火所以才對這個議題有意見那這個議題的整體討論它就不應該被列為所有人是因為認知作戰這樣 您怎麼看對"},{"start":385.878,"end":409.784,"text":"委員舉這個例子我可以理解也就是說後來確實有簽署MOU但我剛剛一直在跟委員說明的是我們可能除了所謂的爭議訊息的內容以外我們會針對它的傳散的手法以及它的異常帳號的IP的浮動的狀況來判斷這是不是外力的操作那另外就議題來講當時比較引起我們關注的內容是在於有點去誇大"},{"start":411.064,"end":439.681,"text":"印度移工進來可能會對於台灣社會之安包括對於女性侵犯那一部分的誇大所以我們重體分析起來認為是有一波中共比較有信心的操作因為現在台灣民眾也在討論這個議題重新在討論說印度的移工那要進到台灣來然後您剛剛所說的這一些內容也是在討論的這一些議題議程當中的那請問您有觀察到"},{"start":440.501,"end":463.576,"text":"大概最近對於印度移工是否要引進台灣這件事情有中共的認知作戰嗎最近我們看到是比較零星的那沒有像上次委員在提到一兩年前那一次比較有系統的所以你認為這一次確實是民怨而不是中共的認知作戰確實民怨我們看到的境外的IP是比較零星的"},{"start":463.996,"end":493.133,"text":"因為討論這件事情他當然是針對反對因為我想講的是反對的意見嘛所以就說好我修正我的詞彙就反對引進印度移工現在不管在網路或是輿論甚至政論節目的討論裡面那國安局這裡在這一波判定裡面基本上不太有中共認知作戰的影響目前還沒有大規模而是單純台灣人民的意志是這樣子的嗎"},{"start":493.513,"end":513.883,"text":"目前在原土產業當然會有不同的討論的角度就像委員講的我們是個多元的社會有不同的討論那就國安局的角度來講我們比較注意的是國安的狀況有沒有境外勢力的操作這一塊那我們在判斷的一些依準還有參據我剛有跟委員說明了有各種不同的指標那我再問你說這一波就是說大概這一周來說的話因為討論"},{"start":517.525,"end":539.858,"text":"討論非常多它幾乎是包含在社群上面的最高關鍵討論度討論度最高的最近兩個議題一個是寵物用藥討論度更高的是印度移工因為上一次被界定為說是認知作戰所以這一次我很希望跟您確認一下這一波以來國安局所掌握的是中共來的認知作戰還是台灣內部的自行討論"},{"start":542.219,"end":558.781,"text":"到目前跟委員討論這個時間點為止我們還沒有看到數量非常龐大的異常帳號的操作但我們後續會再來注意那接下來我要問的事情是有一點時間了在今年二月底的時候因為這個台日在台北大巨蛋有這個台日棒球交流賽嘛"},{"start":559.982,"end":582.698,"text":"那賴清德總統他有親自觀賽那時候維安規格是非常高的結果我們的負責維安勤務的38歲的江姓現役軍人呢然後呢因為先去做安全檢查的關係呢就呢在地下室工作人員休息室裡面偷走了六顆紀念性的棒球裡面還有拉拉多多人群群的這個簽名球那事後警方這個透過監視器就發現說是這個他順手牽羊"},{"start":586.641,"end":603.47,"text":"那後來呢他變成說是以為是沒有人要的垃圾雖然已經歸還了可是被依盜竊罪那這個韓送台北地檢署偵辦那這件事情他不只是涉及到個人的操守也破錄出總統維安人員的紀律漏洞那我請問一下就是維安人員他當初的他當天去的工作是幫總統"},{"start":610.453,"end":625.633,"text":"搜尋說有沒有哪裡有維安的問題哪裡有漏洞所以他自己本身就是最大的維安漏洞因為他在裡面偷東西所以我想問一下國防部司法的部分那已經函送了那是司法的部分我在這裡我不討論"},{"start":626.434,"end":643.813,"text":"那我要討論的是國安局我們在內部裡面針對這件事情的紀律問題我們有沒有做出檢討檢討的內容檢討的方向以及後續的懲處未來的改善方法是什麼請您說明這部分跟委員說明一下第一個是他確實在第一時間就已經移送法辦了"},{"start":644.734,"end":663.836,"text":"那另外因為這一位情員他是由國防部縣指部支援到本局特勤中心來負責做總統行程之前的現場勘察的工作所以我們後來第一時間就解除他支援的職務那回到縣指部之後縣指部我沒有記錯的話他還立刻召開了人評會計量大過列優先汰除名單已經公佈在案"},{"start":664.136,"end":686.163,"text":"那我們國安局裡面也有擴大來進行這個案子的調查是不是只有一個情員資源的情員來涉案那跟委員報告後來還有兩位的情員也可能知情所以我們後來是啟動我們的知情的意思是說我沒有進行法律上的一個法律單位的知情的意思是說知道那個人去拿走幾顆球但沒說這樣子"},{"start":687.544,"end":708.904,"text":"對 因為我們在法律研究認為這也是涉及到共犯行為的一種所以我們就啟動我們的相關局那兩位他的單位是在一樣是記憶兩大過列為遊行探索名單而是我們特勤中心的相關的人員所屬是所屬國安局的特勤中心人員對 我們特勤中心的人員所以我們一樣做內部的調查 高大調查處犯他是從縣執部那邊來支援的對"},{"start":710.285,"end":724.688,"text":"然後呢這個知情不報者是國安局特刑中心的人員所以我們就做完整的處理而且移送法辦因為案情大概的狀況是這樣因為當事人可能還在走行政訴願以及司法的程序那我就他們說"},{"start":726.189,"end":749.515,"text":"細節不需要 我只是希望說 未來我們在整體的勤務安排還有整體的這一些特許人的教育跟訓練上面還是要強化這個紀律因為總統去的地方他當然是一些一般人去不到的地方他能夠觸碰到的東西跟接觸到的事物也是一般人接觸不到的事物那所謂的好東西那當然他是很容易都可以接觸到"},{"start":750.575,"end":776.89,"text":"我們今天要請這些特勤人員去是幫總統去檢查不是說有啥好東西就順手牽羊這是一個非常糟糕的怪習慣所以希望國安局在之後這方面的相關的紀律我們一定要再嚴加看管好不好委員提醒因為在執行公務期間還有去佔有民間的財務那這當然是法律上不容許那我們才會不斷的擴大調查看有沒有案官人等一併處理好的 謝謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"168481","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168481","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5655ee4938da65e1f2148e79c87eeeb2e63d9eaeca1783e3c80866d4b6cb3fd659a766c9ad8cead35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"12:01:42 - 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謝謝主席先請主席長委員好主席長早主席長我想我今天還是要跟你討論一個國道基金的一個議題我想上次來辦公室也跟你請教過是"},{"start":29.946,"end":44.34,"text":"我想主席講國道基金主要的用途就是在於高速公路的養護還有國道的建設我想我們因應建設國道7號還有國一洋頭段的拓寬國一甲等陸續現在都要啟動迎來了3499億這樣龐大的一個支出"},{"start":50.848,"end":63.656,"text":"立法院的預算中心對115年的預算評估指出營運資金短缺在擴大所以首先我要問主委長國道基金的主要來源是什麼國道基金來自於哪裡"},{"start":68.73,"end":91.869,"text":"她有一些罰款的一些收入罰款還有我們政府循序依預算程序也有撥補還有國道車輛徵收的通行費的收入還有汽車燃料費使用的費用也有分配於國道公路建設之用"},{"start":92.97,"end":110.938,"text":"還有服務性的設施有關的收入區段徵收等等還有知習收入 授證收入其他有關收入我們法定的收入大概這幾個但是剛才主席講提到一個很重要的你說有罰款的收入"},{"start":112.359,"end":131.474,"text":"所以我們現在就很不解啊這個依照我們道路交通處罰這個交通違規罰款收入分配及運用辦法國道警察局啊似乎沒有獲得這個罰款的收入以協助該局支應該局執法的相關費用欸有沒有但是他有國庫他有撥補啊"},{"start":138.267,"end":152.701,"text":"國庫警政署是有撥補給他相關的一些設備的費用內政部警政署如果說你是從有保款收入直接去抽那國庫就不用撥補但是國道基金是有國庫去撥補"},{"start":154.616,"end":179.253,"text":"是所以他會有國庫撥補國道基金有國庫撥補給他嘛現在我的意思是說你有沒有聽懂我的意思就是說你國道基金裡面有沒有配就是讓我們這些辛苦的第一線執勤的這些國道檢察局這些同仁或者國道檢察局可以獲得一些我們罰款的一個補助去作為他們執勤的一個"},{"start":180.934,"end":205.303,"text":"購買設備啦 或者科技設備啦 或者它是這個一些安全的一個保障的一個相關的訓練費用有沒有給他們辛苦執勤 而且錢都沒有捐到這個部分它是透過公務部分來編列 並不是說從這個基金來編列那你如果要從基金來編列 以後我就是在公務預算的部分我就不編列 就是這樣子"},{"start":207.664,"end":232.976,"text":"其實這問題我很了解警政署撥補給國道檢察局的相關公務的預算它是並沒有包含我們我剛才講的他們在執行去取締這些違規者這些相關的罰款過去是有一定的比例會給他去採買一些他們必須要的裝備"},{"start":234.969,"end":247.885,"text":"以及訓練的費用啦來加強他們安全的保障最近有很多我們看到公務警察發生事故啊在國道直徑發生事故有編唸 編在哪裡"},{"start":249.363,"end":267.882,"text":"不是我現在跟委員報告就是說他這一個國道基金他是專款讓他專用但是公務預算的部分他只要是國道警察方面設備啦或者其他相關方面這個部分我們都有編列預算來做支應那委員您如果關心這個部分將來我們要加強來"},{"start":270.965,"end":288.44,"text":"因為等於是說罰款它是進公庫然後公庫裡面我們在遇上編列的一個情形以用這樣的一個情形來編列那如果說警察人員在國道方面這一個部分要加強的部分那他們提出需求我們再來做加強可以加強嗎其實我想這個過去也開過好幾次會"},{"start":293.484,"end":311.561,"text":"交通部的意見他說國道基金為專款專用性質無法支應本局經費國道執法為內政部的職權與國道基金業務支出性質不同所以他不同意說給國道檢察局一些相關的補助"},{"start":314.664,"end":339.856,"text":"交通部高速公路局他也說國道基金僅能用於國道興建維護安全管理及設施改善無法配合用於國道執法他的意見是這樣不能給你補助給你相關執法的一些比如我要買科技執法相關的一些設備他說我這國道基金不能給你國道公路總局這樣講"},{"start":344.239,"end":371.997,"text":"主席總書您的意見是講說國道執法與國道基金設置的目的未符所以兩個設置目的未符不予以國道基金致應所以我們現在就是要想辦法這些人也那麼辛苦這些錢都是他們去執勤他們冒著生命的危險去在高速公路執勤這比一般我們在公路上執勤更危險"},{"start":373.598,"end":392.071,"text":"所以這個錢到底如何來讓他們可以獲得更多安全的設備以及讓他們有更多的錢去教育訓練讓他們執行更安全我想我在意的是這個所以你要給他相關的一些錢去採買去做這些事"},{"start":395.834,"end":418.33,"text":"所以主席總統我希望你就是能夠來支持他們所以我們現在了解我現在了解我講一個法條給主席總統來參考就是說是不是可以研擬我們依照交通作業基金收支保管局任任辦法第十一條第二款第七目其他有關支出的規定"},{"start":419.631,"end":442.063,"text":"他有一個第七目有一個其他有關支出的規定來補助國道警察局執行的相關業務的一個費用由他們來申請然後你們依照這個規定由國道基金來這個去補助給他可不可以這樣啦就不要修法就透過這樣的一個目的呢我想交通部應該會支持啊"},{"start":443.134,"end":469.081,"text":"不是 這不是我能夠做決定 這交通部要去做決定就是說他是不是要修正萎縮他除了國道基金 除了建設基金之外是不是其他可以有一些的錢來做那個警察這些的一個裝備的一個貸款這些的支出那我們也樂見其成所以這個部分我們是不是請交通部來做檢討"},{"start":470.642,"end":498.244,"text":"檢討結果如果可以那這個部分將來要提撥百分比多少這是他們去提撥如果不行我們將來就還是從公務預算來做依註依註這樣這些那個國道的一個相關的設備我想這個總是要研擬一個方案啦我們不能就一直看了那麼多次會但是最後沒有一個結論出來好不好我希望主席總書妳要支持真的很辛苦啦我們支持這個"},{"start":498.624,"end":511.995,"text":"我覺得他們太辛苦了結果辛苦執法這些法源他們分不到半毛錢這很不公平謝謝您請回接下來請那個中流的方董事長"},{"start":520.233,"end":545.765,"text":"市長上週四月十號你說如果荷姆斯海峽開放中游有一艘游龍裝滿了兩百萬桶的原油兩週航程就可以抵達我們中華民國可供國內半個月的需求量但我們根據上週五的國外媒體報導伊朗又再度封鎖荷姆斯海峽"},{"start":547.206,"end":571.16,"text":"這樣看起來這200萬桶的原油好像似乎沒有辦法順利的運達我們台灣不知道什麼時候會到當然你也提到中流也有向沙烏地阿拉伯購買原油預計四月中旬裝船完畢航程大約兩週可以抵達台灣也就是說最快要到五月份也可以到達台灣"},{"start":572.461,"end":582.022,"text":"所以我想請問你這樣對我們國內油品的供應啊將會有什麼樣的影響是否能夠確保我們國內的油品供應無虞啊"},{"start":583.48,"end":611.792,"text":"因為這兩百萬看起來就不會來了我們在戰前的時候有一艘原油輪它裝滿了油但是停在波斯灣裡面沒辦法從赫姆斯海峽出來當然對於美國跟伊朗停火之後我們也期望這個船能夠經過赫姆斯海峽出來從最新的消息看起來還是要等"},{"start":613.032,"end":628.766,"text":"那替代的方案的話呢就是從沙烏地阿拉伯呢它有鋪一條管線拉到這個揚埔就是在鴻海這一側那鴻海這一側能夠裝有這一艘船呢已經在10月12號不是說兩個禮拜能夠到台灣確定嗎"},{"start":630.487,"end":653.635,"text":"4月12號已經裝船目前在航行回台灣的途中預估在5月份可以到所以後續的原油船從沙烏地阿拉伯大概如果沒有改變的話都會尋這樣一個模式把原油運到台灣我們目前石油的存量到底還能供應多久"},{"start":654.771,"end":669.029,"text":"現在7月我們國家來講這存量是90天發佈的事實上都存的都是超過100天但是目前中東戰事這樣發生我們看油價又會一直上漲"},{"start":670.31,"end":685.684,"text":"你還是跟沒有戰事一樣就是純油量你說純油量大概90天嘛但是現在看起來戰事一直在好像沒有停的就打一打然後講一講後來還是沒有停戰嘛"},{"start":686.901,"end":702.61,"text":"這種情況你以目前來講你可以很誠實的告訴我們目前大概存量還多少我想在量的部分做個說明雖然是中東這個戰事對於中油公司來講我們會尋求其他的油源"},{"start":703.769,"end":730.191,"text":"譬如說西非譬如說澳洲譬如說地中海這個區域另外當然很重要就是從美國美國這個原油它還是會佔蠻大的比例市長我想這個中油很辛苦我們都了解我想也因為動漲一直在虧損相關的預算相關到底我們石油未來要不要漲我想中油還在撐到底還能撐多久大家也很關心"},{"start":731.132,"end":748.335,"text":"我想中國還是要提早做好因應國際情勢做好各種財務分析到底我們油價未來要怎麼走很誠實的跟老百姓講清楚我想這個才比較是一個正確的做法好 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汪委員好局長請問一下我們今天這個題目這些小庭你判斷會越來越多還越來越少"},{"start":19.963,"end":35.656,"text":"我們不排除它還會再發生,這也是為什麼我們一直在跟海巡在討論怎麼樣來提升我們的一些應酬的一些措施好,那我接著請教海巡署,你如果看到這裡的船,這裡的小艇,你看到的後一步是什麼?看到它之後"},{"start":40.353,"end":62.984,"text":"看這小艇在跑的時候,你們的下一步是什麼?我們雷達偵測到以後,我們會去做必要的識別然後我們派遣情務,然後線上艇就直接去攔查然後在岸基部分,如果攔查的話,抓,因為我們要去辨識啊因為我不曉得這小艇到底是我們自己的漁船,還是對方的漁船抓到了嗎?"},{"start":64.181,"end":91.559,"text":"抓到以後就按照程序來做處理 扣押然後扣押 留置調查啊 交給內進部我們現在的是要辨別你是非法入侵的漁船部我們就按照兩岸人民關係條例來做處理你那個魚如果是什麼 不管偷渡什麼 你如果抓到都找去內進部嘛我們現在按照兩岸人民關係條例來做處理如果是漁民部份是我們做留置調查那如果是偷渡的部份當然是回歸到留置調查要讓他們吃便當嗎要"},{"start":95.339,"end":117.513,"text":"他就不許來教你吃便當就好了我們調查了一段時間啦,就是留置調查,然後畢竟要做採訪你怎麼不給他關照就好因為他違法,不是國內的法,你當然要逮捕,因為他是違法行為啊那怎麼會,逮捕之後逮捕之後就留置調查,然後...不然之後現在報告裡面,不想說不然之後他們都要投奔自由的嚮往台灣民主的"},{"start":119.379,"end":133.071,"text":"這是他的說法,但是我們會根據他的...這就是中國人不吃小孩啦,一群臭小孩啦抓到就說要逃免自由,不吃小孩啦抓到就說我們是來騷擾的啦,我們就要你測試的啦抓到就雞龜雞拐,鼻青,沒有啦,我們是要逃免自由,臭小孩啊這種就要處理啊,每天都在互相罵,大人會人會,你這海巡署人就皮皮板面"},{"start":146.311,"end":157.312,"text":"這樣會不會通因為我們是按照相關的法律來做然後這一部分只要是偷渡 不過我們是依給地檢處去做後續的調查後續的偵辦不是 他不是偷渡 他就是來亂的啦"},{"start":159.262,"end":173.705,"text":"來斷了你怎麼辦?我們國內有完整的法治啊,我們就按照法律來處理它他們一直在亂,一天來把你一天去十天來亂他們來十天,我照理啊,我照法律你們的戰力就整個耗損一下對不對?我們海巡有這個能力,只要發現有能力來做處理,沒問題沒問題,來國安局,你跟海巡署沒問題"},{"start":187.455,"end":193.781,"text":"委員比較擔心的是會有這種大規模而且品質很高的一個簽約大規模啦,他就這麼把你攔著,你就每天都在批本命啦,啊如果早一隻進來就大臭皮啦早一隻進來就說,好我們登陸了啦,中華民國台灣的海巡有夠弱的啦,我們趕快趕上去啦,怎麼樣"},{"start":210.856,"end":233.387,"text":"所以這也是為什麼我們要建立一些跨部會的聯訪跟通報的機制我們也是從很多的案例當中做一些改善知道他在那裡嘛 去找到他啊找他之後再開便當機這樣會不會通不過就海防的立場來講當然是只要有這種違法的行為真的就是要逮捕啦那依照我們的法律來進行審判那他還必須要在這邊服刑所以如果上一大堆來服刑"},{"start":238.732,"end":261.344,"text":"對啊,依照法律我們就是要處理啊,你不能夠做事不管阿姨我們就一直給他服刑就對了你一天三天一百個,你就一百個都給他服刑就對了對,目前來講要依照法律阿姨這種的身份很假啊對,但還有一個可能是拉長我們的警戒的範圍啦那盡量不要讓他... 阿這你們要注意啦對啊,這我們要注意因為他以前比較大隻的,你們就一直找他的現在創這種的喔"},{"start":265.168,"end":272.673,"text":"都會耗損我們,有時候他幫你做一些認知作戰,我們就要看他,他剛才在那裡喝水,好,這樣失敗整個台灣人就說,嗯,愛純就這樣失敗,都沒發現對我們的海巡署,這個威信應用算很大,對我們的國安的應用也很大民眾會覺得說,這愛純到底是在說什麼,愛純要開一百,開一百我們都不知道,那一百到裡面還要炒大"},{"start":294.993,"end":320.429,"text":"國安局我覺得這個可能你們要特別注意因為這種的喔對他們來說 身分很低啦對啦他們人也不用身分啊 人那麼多人不用身分再來捏便當還可以臭皮對 假如後續海巡的這一方面的徵收技術能量有提升的話啦那可能是盡量不要讓他進階到我們的岸際啦好 那這個接下來會在我們的相關的演習有這一條嘛"},{"start":321.83,"end":327.368,"text":"會 揮袋的清掃本來就是我們關注的一個重點不是 我現在說的小庭你講的會接下來會有這種演習嗎"},{"start":329.553,"end":340.557,"text":"這部份應該海巡也有做一些剛剛署長也在說明報告當中有提到有針對我們的情緣做必要的一個教育這種可能臨港有什麼演習的時候叫海有關的演習這種可能要特別納入因為這看起來有可能他們現在說什麼去淘寶要一些不好的東西當過來的東西就是爛,叫一些草薯,不太好,人會人會"},{"start":356.42,"end":374.12,"text":"他們這個身分算假喔所以這我們可能要特別注意一下國安局長請教一下阿強阿曾發布十大毀台措施嘛要毀滅台灣的十大措施嘛有沒有哪一條是你意外的"},{"start":375.724,"end":403.07,"text":"呃基本上呃我剛才在跟其他委員說明啦大概到我們選舉之前都會有這些所謂的錯失哪一條你很意外對那我要講的重點是大概之前都有提過啦以前都有提過所以沒有什麼意外對大概都是他如果要選一個最意外的啊你國安局長你抱歉說你如果真的說意外你可能沒辦法做局長裡面有一條我最關心他說金門廈門共用機場"},{"start":406.947,"end":430.392,"text":"今天梁文傑副主委接受媒體問的時候,他說太隆重,不知道那是什麼意思,說了回來,好沒關係局長,你看看事實上那個祥安機場,我們真的是沒有意外,是因為它本來在今年年底就要落成所以在它的機場興建過程當中,我們都有在注意它相關的動態另外,它也有做一些宣傳"},{"start":431.172,"end":454.866,"text":"還有做一些宣傳包括機場要開放一些攤位給台商來承租包括鼓勵我們外離島民眾運用祥安機場當國際機場所以他這部分的操作在之前中共的官宣媒體就已經有在進行那這一次只是有提出來重新再講一次他現在如果是說我現在看到一些民意代表不知道是什麼是替人說話還是什麼他說因為金門這個地方常常在吃農物"},{"start":458.408,"end":477.222,"text":"所以有時候飛機沒辦法降落金門,整個停在廈門這在國安局看來還不通對啊,所以剛剛各位說明的是,這比較像是一個統戰的操作你說我們台灣對松山北的金門嘛,我們站成雲井坐飛機的嘛現在說金門沒辦法降落,我看這幫利用的,我看這幫華信的,不然直接降落廈門"},{"start":483.995,"end":506.729,"text":"這樣會不會通沒有 這還是不太可行啦因為他也沒有跟我們有做過相關的討論委員看到應該是他在統戰過程當中釋放的一些訊息啦來讓台灣內部社會來針對這些議題不知道怎麼回應或是內部出現一些不同的意見所以這個問題事實上從大概一年多前就已經有在操作有關襄陽機場的問題那國安局的態度是什麼"},{"start":508.305,"end":524.86,"text":"那基本上我們認為香安機場在落成之後,那不管是一些航線或是管制區,還是要透過管道跟我們政府來做溝通跟討論所以他認定的也是國際機場嗎?他的機場他定位是在國際機場不是啦,一定是國際機場要給你開放一個叫做台灣的什麼航站啊"},{"start":528.069,"end":552.884,"text":"他現在確實在操作的宣傳上有特別提到同等待遇啦也就是讓我們外離島的民眾那在使用這些機場或中共的交通設施可以跟中國大陸的民眾一樣所以他整體後面有一個統戰策略的包裝那國安局的角度我們當然就是來揭露中共這樣的一個做法讓國人在討論的時候比較知道中共背後的一個政治的圖這你一定要提醒交通部跟民航局"},{"start":553.784,"end":566.25,"text":"這不是在開玩笑的這坐飛機騎升溫泉叫我騎火車是沒用的在松山機場要出門坐航車也沒用你不可以在那個高麗航車機位 什麼下來變一個黑門 裝傻的你如果這樣做 像我們這種去阿京阿發要乘坐的那種我現在如果坐一間房子 飛機拿回去下門 我就下車他現在說沒辦法降落 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謝謝主席那我們請主計長"},{"start":19.382,"end":27.984,"text":"我們在去年十月的時候有通過這個強化經濟社會及民生國安認証特別預算那這個預算應該是有這個5447億那這個預算通過之後呢 那其實我們有預留200億253億是屬於一個彈性的額度嘛 對不對"},{"start":41.887,"end":62.504,"text":"我現在就請教一下主席長因為現在我們面對中東戰事我們政府其實有很多處理的機制在有油價雙還帳的機制就是我們有亞林最低價 油價平穩措施中油目前也吸收了大概107億左右"},{"start":64.085,"end":93.104,"text":"然後我們還有稅負的減徵稅負減徵包含這個我們的汽柴油的貨物稅關鍵原物料的這個負稅還有這個桶裝瓦式的貨物稅減徵然後還有民生的這個價格也動漲比如說我們的這個電價還有這個天然氣等等還有包含這個公共運輸的票價等等那我是想請教就是說因為我們這個預算是這個韌性特別預算那這次遇到這個中東三十這個"},{"start":94.445,"end":108.537,"text":"你說253,257億,是不是?253,彈性運用的,那可以運用到這次的中東戰事嗎?比如說受到影響的各行各業,那我剛才講了這麼多政府的這些補貼的措施"},{"start":109.862,"end":126.328,"text":"我這個案子我也之前就因為這253可不可以用這個我們就做討論過然後我們也跟部會討論討論它裡面的一些項目可不可以容納他說不行所以如果說這些項目要放進去那必須辦理"},{"start":128.009,"end":142.406,"text":"這個條例的一個修正那條例修正之後呢我們再把這253億辦理追加預算因為這253億並沒有在預算裡面所以你要用也是要再透列預算第一個要修正"},{"start":143.366,"end":154.471,"text":"這253億不是就在我們這個整個特別預算裡面沒有 他就沒有編列預算他5,770他條例5,770但是編列預算只編列5,447億所以253億是沒有編列預算的所以這就是剩餘但是你如果要用還要再編列預算第二個還必須條例裡面有這相關的內容才可以這樣"},{"start":166.917,"end":194.797,"text":"所以就是說我們現在已經通過了這個預算裡面如果我剛才講的那些補貼措施也沒辦法用到就對了因為我們這次是應付美國的關稅嘛然後這次是運動中東的戰事嘛沒有辦法用目前只有那個衛福部表示他兩百億的部分可以其他單位大部分都不行尤其是經濟部我們請他去過濾他說這個不行所以必須要另外修改條例或者是辦追加減預算"},{"start":196.158,"end":218.494,"text":"好 那我現在請問一下這個主席長那我剛才講了這麼多政府的一些補貼的措施你有沒有想過到下半年度這些預算因為這個還是屬於這個政府的預算嘛你不管是董事長 那董事長你可能這個補貼最後還是要編預算嘛比如說終於他也編了這個這個增資預算等等你有沒有算過說這些預算大概需要多少錢有沒有 有沒有一個統計"},{"start":223.41,"end":241.793,"text":"我們目前目前就是請各單位統計如果繼續延長這樣子的話大概是他們提出需求是1292億那裡面有包括經濟部中油公司的741億 能源署的還有"},{"start":242.253,"end":249.517,"text":"台電公司的300億這些等等包括交通部85億 農業部56億這些等那加起來遠遠超過我們剛剛所說的不夠不夠所以我們如果要的話就必須第一個再弄一個特別條例然後再"},{"start":262.403,"end":289.101,"text":"辦一個特別的預算針對這一個部分來做一個辦理一個預算的一個部分條例通過之後我們就辦理預算然後第二個再籌措裁員所以我剛好就是要問主席講這件事情因為我們因應這個美國關稅我們有一個特別預算特別條例嘛五千多億嘛那現在因應中東戰事那我們剛剛政府也做了這麼多穩定物價或是補貼民生的一些這些措施那當然需要錢"},{"start":289.961,"end":314.756,"text":"那你剛算過說大概需要一千快將近一千三百億對那所以說是不是我們接下來為了因應中東戰事那我們是不是也提出類似這一種特別條例然後再編一個特別運算因為各行各業都受到影響啊是所以這個部門請願你來做財事好不好跟業務單位就是相關的部門提出需求然後由行政院來做財事所以"},{"start":315.848,"end":344.899,"text":"主計長你認為說有這個需要跟這個必須性就是說提出這一個特別條例然後不需要提出這樣或者是說我們直接辦追加預算直接辦追加預算好那辦追加預算總預算也還沒通過啊對追加預算就是卡在就是說總預算沒有通過所以我們才會說那是用還是用特別條例總預算沒有通過總預算沒有通過你怎麼辦追加預算所以難度就在這裡是好"},{"start":345.399,"end":370.775,"text":"那看起來就是說這個總預算不知道啦那可是就是說至少在總計在主席長的想法裡面也希望說因應這次的重重預算是我們再編一個特別條例然後編一個特別預算至少剛剛各部會會籍過來大概也需要一千三百億左右是好那我接下來再請教一下主席長請回我選這個經濟部經濟部今天是次長來嘛來次長好來謝謝"},{"start":378.714,"end":388.64,"text":"你們有一個塑膠袋的評價專案嘛那大家也很關心就是說我們希望每個月增加大概12.5億個塑膠袋所以說這個計畫現在已經開始做了嗎"},{"start":393.653,"end":412.673,"text":"已經開始做了,中油在3月31號釋清開爐生產而4月10號也把生產的這個乙烯送到下游的台塑公司因為台塑公司在生產塑膠粒,這些都已經在做了那所以這個12.5億個塑膠袋是哪時候會出來?"},{"start":415.575,"end":434.373,"text":"大概這禮拜因為他還要做品管混裝還有包裝這個部分那基本上還沒出來之前事實上我們的產發署已經媒合了差不多是20家的廠商針對於現有的所謂的他掌握到的塑膠力的部分已經在加量在生產"},{"start":435.194,"end":460.784,"text":"那次長這個請教一下因為現在這個媒體有質疑說這個塑膠袋就算你們做出來有增加12.5億那這個售價也會漲大概三成左右沒有我們透過我們經濟部的協調包括台塑公司以及上游的乙烯的供應者中游公司我們是用平價的專案所以塑膠袋也不會漲"},{"start":462.481,"end":479.577,"text":"現在的話我們用評價的專案來做供應所以這個跟現在市面上所大家謠傳的現在或是實質上面的那個實質上的漲幅是有很大的差距的這是一個評價那上游原料漲當然中游也有吸收啦"},{"start":480.998,"end":504.026,"text":"因為你如果原來有漲然後你現在送給中油請台塑台聚去做中油吸收最主要的是最上游的最上游原油包括氫油的這些進口重點就在於說塑膠袋不會漲就對了這個部分我們用評價的方式來供應因為契約的內容我們有看到是屬於那第二個就是買得到塑膠袋了"},{"start":505.509,"end":528.765,"text":"可以買得到,那買不到的話,我們所謂商發署,事實上它也有一個群組或是電話都訪談大概4月1號商發署就針對於全國350個商圈逐一的去訪視啊那若是大家也因為有些存貨不足啊,或是說有一些不足的狀況我們商發署很快的透過這些平台來補足貨源"},{"start":530.006,"end":547.996,"text":"好 就是要求經濟部第一個 塑膠袋不要漲價然後能夠供應給我們的這一個不管你是攤商或是說你是在這個店家等等塑膠袋不要缺那第二個 塑膠袋也不要漲價不要漲價不要缺 這經濟部能做到嗎"},{"start":548.943,"end":569.833,"text":"我們現在透過專案的增產的5000噸的這個部分用平價了那至於一般的這個塑膠袋它各個生產商很多這個部分我們還是會透過包括聯合的茶具的這個小組來去促進這個所謂你剛剛所謂的這個塑膠袋的這個穩定措施"},{"start":570.253,"end":573.675,"text":"好 那我有一個問題 剛剛這個委員也有提到這個因應這個油價 這個高漲 那其實我們就是採中油吸收的這個方式嘛"},{"start":581.923,"end":607.904,"text":"那韓國它是編了這個6.1兆韓元大概1356億的這個高油價受害資源金不過它這個是特別針對這個低收入戶啦它還有分這個首都圈非首都圈的區別等等那反正它不是全部啦它就是針對這個低收入戶然後次長您的說法就是說因為我們現在有亞聯最低價跟專案平穩的這個機制所以"},{"start":609.005,"end":612.093,"text":"這個不用韓國這一套我們現在這個機制就可以處理好就對了"},{"start":612.847,"end":641.503,"text":"在經濟部的立場是促進能源的進口的數量的穩定還有價格的這個平穩那過去的幾週我們都做到這一些那以目前為止的話綜合公司在油品的吸收107.3億元左右那我們持續的透過這些的機制來維持這個油價的一個穩定那除此之外的話事實上包括剛剛委員也提到了貨物稅的減徵甚至是液化石油器"},{"start":641.963,"end":645.564,"text":"我最後再問一個問題我請這個國發會我們的高副主委我簡短的問副主委有知道這個韓國的這個政策嗎是那國發會的評估勒"},{"start":663.071,"end":686.29,"text":"我覺得韓國的政策跟我們的政策事實上是不同的approach那我們先把國際油價 油氣價格的上漲我們先用我們中油吸收的方式來阻斷所以它其實到後面的對民生物價的影響其實是相對的微輕的從我們第一季的CPI可以看出來我們只有1.23原本1.3百來高"},{"start":688.211,"end":713.848,"text":"所以事實上他們在油價的吸收裡面他幾乎就是相對來輕微所以他用後面來補貼的方式來做所以我覺得因為物價有一個向下的僵固性我們希望從前頭阻斷了以後物價不會上來不要讓物價上來以後我們再用錢去補貼那些受害物價受害的一些群體跟群眾"},{"start":714.508,"end":716.336,"text":"OK 好 那我知道好 謝謝主席 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168476","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168476","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5655ee4938da65e1758d47bf924e869a81f6660fd2e34289aa0fde58f0e31cf27f0c5e2542c48c5b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"馬文君","委員發言時間":"11:19:44 - 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麻煩請官局局長還有內政部 國防部副部長還有內政部還有會副部長好副部長謝謝主席 包委好"},{"start":15.562,"end":26.515,"text":"謝謝局長就今天的議題不過剛剛其實有委員關切到所以我們也希望可以在這裡提一下因為台灣去年2025年跟大陸的貿易順差是1471億美元也就是說一年從大陸賺取4兆7千萬台幣"},{"start":35.645,"end":40.189,"text":"這對台灣有很多的產業來說其實是非常有利的這樣子的一個生意所以在這個部分因為我們看到現在台灣面臨有一些困難比如說像現在美國對世界各國的關稅那我們談的結果是非常差的"},{"start":60.746,"end":64.609,"text":"包括像我們原來說我們的藥品其實是可以跟大家一樣可能是在關稅上是比較低可是後來才發現原來我們是百分之百還有我們放寬了非常多的規則不管是可能來租農業的很多其他的殘留標準或者我們自己國內本來自主性很強的現在都被彈成沒有辦法由我們自我主導"},{"start":90.909,"end":95.212,"text":"那另外還有我們每年編列高爾的預算想要加入CPTPP或者甚至我們甚至沒有參加WTO等等我們現在的困境其實是非常多那如果離我們最近而且我們每年可以從大陸賺取4兆7千萬的這樣子的一個錢我想對我們所有的很多產業來說其實是非常重要的所以我們希望就"},{"start":119.508,"end":128.532,"text":"整個大家的政府的考量也好或者我們人民的立場下去考量也好我們應該要怎麼樣去找到一個平衡點這個可能是政府應該要負的責任可是今天如果有其他的單位因為像我們跟其他國家不管日本也好或者其他國家也好我們很多也會透過NGO團體也有很多透過民間的合作社像農業產業其實甚至都是民間自主性的就可以做這些相關的交流"},{"start":148.661,"end":151.023,"text":"所以如果為了人民的生活好然後我們可以有更好的一個互相的交流而且可以維持我們雙方的穩定我想這都是大家要努力的目標不要把政治放得太高所以這是我們今天要特別提出來的"},{"start":166.814,"end":174.817,"text":"今天其實我們主要要探討的是近期中國籍小型船隻非法侵入我國臨海之徵收漏洞檢討還有科技監偵設備它建制的進度跟監禁作為我們其實主要是從過去好幾年前從台中它就不只發生一起它從台中上岸結果人家是自己去自首的或者有些是人家檢舉"},{"start":191.303,"end":197.067,"text":"在前年113年6月的時候在台北淡水河口也同樣發生這樣的事情那最近在3月台南的鹿兒門又發生有這樣小型船隻可以登陸的這樣子一個狀況這個不明小艇搶探台灣海岸線這個都已經不是首招所以我們才認為說這個對我們的國安會不會造成影響局長您怎麼看有這麼多這些小艇它可以如入無人之境"},{"start":221.044,"end":240.719,"text":"現在像三越這個 它也是 本來說是漂流物那個很大耶 而且它是在我們的雷達站旁邊這個雷達站還不是無人的喔 這是有人的雷達站那居然在旁邊就可以看到這一艘船那這也不是一般的那種橡皮艇小艇耶看起來它就是船 所以這怎麼會我們"},{"start":242.921,"end":249.784,"text":"完全沒有辦法去掌握這個部分局長就這個部分對我們國安相關的這個有沒有影響跟委員做個說明啦就我剛才在講說謝委員會在這個時間點安排這樣的一個專題報告因為接下來真的是可能中共偷渡的高峰期這大概是第一點那第二點是我們對於這些偷渡案"},{"start":264.031,"end":285.016,"text":"就官的角度來講他確實有凸顯到我們海防安全上有一些不足的地方那也必須要有一些更具體的測定作為那所以就官局的角度來講我們大概有分兩個部分一個部分是舊案的釐清跟盤點我剛才在跟其他委員說明舊案發生之後怎麼釐清他的動機以及他偷渡的一個軌跡跟方法"},{"start":285.216,"end":311.525,"text":"那怎麼樣透過數位還原以及清詢過程當中來弄清楚那第二部分就是新案的預防那怎麼樣防止再有不斷類似的新案的發生所以這部分我們也跟海巡署有在做一些必要的提醒畢竟海域安全主要還是需要海巡海岸巡防單位能夠有更好的設備跟人力的編制那這個部分我們有做一些提醒那海巡在剛剛的業務報告當中也做了他們一些相關的測驗作為"},{"start":313.069,"end":317.553,"text":"我們完全看不到它的策進作為而且我剛剛提到是好幾年前就已經開始發生而且它是不斷的發生顯然我們到現在還沒有辦法抓住而且越來越嚴重為什麼我們今天要特別講到這個部分因為剛剛局長提到的那個部分我們有聽到可是我們現在要探討的是台灣的海岸警衛既然"},{"start":334.329,"end":350.421,"text":"在冬天的時候其實我們的風力太強大像這種小型的船隻其實是不容易在海上在這邊可以在這邊航行所以其實它也是很有限的時間點如果在這麼有限的時間點我們都還沒有辦法好好的把它"},{"start":351.101,"end":363.967,"text":"防衛做好那我們過去我們今天看到的報告內容各個單位都只是要錢而且還一直說我們的特別預算可能需要這些錢或者我們的總預算需要這些錢我們來回顧看看我們現在到底為了這些我們花了多少錢台灣的海岸警衛到底是誰負責的我們現在看到今天的報告裡面內政部說我們負責查緝"},{"start":377.233,"end":405.535,"text":"然後海巡署說我們負責海上國防部說那是灰色地帶所以結果就是這個相關的責任一分為三可是我們看到他風險持續都是存在而且一而再再而三的不斷的在發生內政部的報告裡面是寫說他們大概是抓抓人要靠民眾檢舉啊巡邏來臨檢而且偷渡犯每天會電話而且三天要報到我們要問的是道路小型船隻他進入他"},{"start":407.256,"end":428.677,"text":"既然是國安問題因為剛剛局長的報告裡面還有你的說明裡面其實也有提到就是說其實國安局明確的指出小型船艇它不易被雷打去爭貨那另外就是海岸線它存在查查的盲區還有就是可以利用地形直接靠岸那其實我們已經都知道這些相關的狀況我們看看這幾年"},{"start":432.541,"end":442.733,"text":"剛剛提到的就是我們在看到那個內政部他提的那個報告裡面那像這些你說都是靠這個臨檢報到電話聯繫這個看起來今天寫的報告這是治安處理人口管理"},{"start":449.682,"end":467.715,"text":"根本不是防止滲透所以內政部他如果這個是國安問題他怎麼可以拿這樣的內容來外交國防委員會來做這樣的報告這份報告從頭到尾都沒有提到即使偵測能力系統攔截能力或者任何科學數據"},{"start":469.056,"end":483.619,"text":"所謂的科技兼徵到底在哪裡內政部花了很多錢之前還包括我們去年通過的防衛陣性的預算裡面當時要錢的時候也說因為有很多這種小艇的這些可能會有這樣清早的一個舉動所以我們也編了很多錢那更遑論之前還買過無人機雖然無人機到最後說我們出海以後不能飛因為風太強"},{"start":496.801,"end":501.948,"text":"那你還後來又編了更多的錢還買所以就內政部的時候有這樣的狀況對不對"},{"start":506.638,"end":525.389,"text":"簡單說明就好跟委員報告內政部基本上我們基本上是負責治安的行為那治安查查行為當然也負責包括國安的後續的偵查跟調查所以我們其實不是只有單純的就是海上請我們副市長來做這邊比較完整的說明市長不用不用再上來因為時間的關係"},{"start":527.73,"end":553.681,"text":"內政部負責國土防衛當你要預算的時候你告訴我們說這些相關的防衛內政部都有權責所以你要了很多的預算我們今天要討論的就是這個部分所以我們就這些相關的國土防衛你去做一些檢討我們看不到今天的報告裡面我剛剛提到的你花了預算你沒有提到偵測能力攔截能力跟任何的科學數據這是針對內政部說的接下來請教海巡署"},{"start":557.671,"end":579.202,"text":"海巡署在我們今天的報告資料裡面有說有311個人這個大部分是海上攔截抓到的還是進來以後才被抓的311個人是內政部的統計那我們海巡署的統計就是針對海上偷渡進來的時候我們從112年到現在是208個人其中入籍的有47個人"},{"start":586.027,"end":614.965,"text":"有47個人我剛剛的問題因為內政部也提到了嘛這是你們的記錄所以相關的一些作為其實你們也都是有連帶關係的可是我現在的請教的問題是說他是進來以後才被抓還是在海上攔截的時候抓到的不管你是200多個還是300多個有一部分是在海上抓的一部分是在陸上抓的那大部分都是在離島地區抓的"},{"start":615.885,"end":641.465,"text":"離島 所謂離島是金門 馬祖跟澎湖所以其實也都是上岸以後才抓到的沒有 有的是在海上查那因為我們的雷達針說不好因為金馬的地區的重症很短那進來以後就等於快靠岸了所以我們在岸邊等他就直接逮捕或者是用我們巡防艇去直接逮捕所以就今天我們看到的部分因為你之前在台北淡水河口已經發生過相關的事情台中也發生過那這一次在鹿耳門"},{"start":642.325,"end":645.688,"text":"發生這個小艇,而且你們剛開始還說這是漂流物那麼大的一個漂流物,看起來就是船你會把它當成漂流物,後來才發現是通緝犯去搭乘的所以其實這個部分我們要討論的是台灣的海岸線有多少比例即使是可以偵測的我們通篇都沒有看到我們檢討雷打覆蓋率"},{"start":665.501,"end":669.203,"text":"夜間監控能力小型船隻辨識率沒有數字就沒有能力因為我們看到它不斷的發生你們已經要過很多錢你們之前像在很多的那個無人機監測預算就有數十億相關的單位包括內政部還有岸際監控系統也花大錢去擴建反無人機系統的分級還有AI辨識失效"},{"start":693.078,"end":719.951,"text":"其實還要人工double check其實現在最近發生的事情我們花了很多錢可是它不斷的造成這樣的一個狀況小艇還是船隻還是直接進到我們的所有的海岸上面這邊跟委員說明其實我們現在就是因為前面發生這麼多案子那在雷達因為它有物理限制所以我們在偵查上面本來就有它的侷限那為了改善這些所以我們有在特別預算裡面有編列了"},{"start":721.731,"end":739.5,"text":"284億那中間有一大部分的是在做聯合情增針的這一個部分那同時也防堵這個小型目標進到我們國內來那我們現在正在做但是這案子還在進行當中還沒做完整那我相信我們整個做完成以後這個問題就會大幅改善"},{"start":740.02,"end":743.664,"text":"大幅改善 是是您說的喔是 因為其實在淡水河口事件以後不要說特別預算來 你們之前已經編了預算那時候在預算上面你們也花了錢強調要補強包括安靜監控系統 無人機的監偵還有科技徵收設備還有紅外線熱像儀這在之前的預算就有 不是在去年的這個特別預算"},{"start":763.764,"end":788.858,"text":"國土防衛徵信裡面,而是你們支援裡面的因為這是涵蓋預的問題,所以我們在特別預算特別把整個剛剛那個委員提示的部分有缺漏的部分,那盲區的部分,我們這次全部把它補齊全部都會把它補齊,所以其實以後就不會再發生像這樣子的一個小型船隻可以進到我們的國土上面,領土上面然後可以如入無人之境,就不會發生這樣的事情我不敢跟委員保證百分之百,但是會降到最低"},{"start":793.3,"end":817.123,"text":"什麼叫降到最低機率降到最低所謂的機率是怎麼樣因為如果這個都還是有人抓到的同樣都是小型船隻而且都是低可偵測的目標而且他還是可以持續靠岸如果到現在你們說花了這麼多的錢數十億甚至百億而且還有聯合勤監偵國防部也在這裡因為國防部的雷達我們說他沒有辦法偵測比較小"},{"start":817.944,"end":822.286,"text":"小型的目標物所以我們還花了錢去建置像熱像椅紅外線等等那如現在還加上AI的辨識如果還有無人機你們花了這麼多錢告訴大家我們需要更多更多的錢然後如果他只是降低到現在你也不敢說可以有多好的效果"},{"start":837.355,"end":849.067,"text":"我覺得這個可能還是大家後續要探討的今天我們主要要談的是就這個部分因為我們看到的是你在這個部分內政部他負責的是人進來之後然後海巡署他是負責海上巡邏或者海岸的部分那國防部他負責戰爭以後才介入因為在灰色襲擾嘛你如果敵人在"},{"start":861.599,"end":869.182,"text":"所以我們看到是可嫌疑的像這樣子的一個對象其實他在進入之前是好像沒有辦法可以管根本報告那個全世界每個國家可以全部百分之百防堵偷懟我們沒有說要百分之百可是當你們一直持續在發聲的時候而且也是非常離譜我剛剛提到的是你這個是有人的雷達站的旁邊他就已經上來了"},{"start":888.49,"end":891.774,"text":"然後你剛開始還是告訴大家說這是漂流物所以顯然這資訊的掌握或者你們整體的掌握你今天不是在盲區今天是在你的雷達站旁邊而且你的錢已經花了 預算已經用了可是還是沒有達到這樣的目的"},{"start":904.628,"end":908.951,"text":"然後你們還跟大家說我們還要更多的錢因為我們不知道多少錢才夠我們沒有要求百分之百可是你不斷的台灣才多大人家很多其他的國家它的海岸線這麼長它的國土面積這麼大人家還是有做到你今天如果跟我們要了那麼多的錢而且還說特別預算的錢要過總預算的錢要過那你又沒有辦法把它做好"},{"start":928.024,"end":932.626,"text":"那怎麼有辦法對我們人民交代那個剛剛瑋瑜講的那個雷達旁邊那個就是雷達的盲區那個對面板就是雷達的盲區那你有人對不對"},{"start":940.253,"end":942.915,"text":"我們有人但是人在盲區我們發現時間很短你今天人在那裡然後你都看不到他不是很小你看看照片上面的盲區今天如果你在偷渡飯可以上來或者我們可以這樣子都沒有發現到人"},{"start":960.646,"end":966.468,"text":"你會說它是漂流物表示你們剛開始是沒有發現到人所以你們用這樣子的一個方式去處置這一個事件那後來才發現有人我們今天跟你討論的不是這個部分而也盲區的部分我們也很清楚的知道可是我們希望你們就這個部分其實不是只要錢因為你們已經花了很多的錢我們要的是它的效果如果你不斷的在重複的發生像你們之前買的那個無人機其實"},{"start":990.478,"end":995.883,"text":"包括有一些你說跟美國合作到最後是拉脫維亞的像這樣子然後事情還是不斷的發生可是你買的都是同一家同一個品牌那到底是人的問題還是你的採購的問題這個部分還有時間的關係提供一些相關的書面資料"},{"start":1010.376,"end":1013.099,"text":"怎麼樣有精進的作為因為我們今天看不到大家提到的這個部分我們要的是大家可以怎麼樣去精進改善然後我們的錢應該要花在什麼樣的地方這個才是我們今天探討的重點而不是你說我們需要更多的錢"},{"start":1026.212,"end":1043.728,"text":"然後我們可以做到以後會什麼樣的結果不知道這不是我們今天要討論的一個重點所以就這些部分我們希望可以特別提出來那國安單位既然災傷相關的這些我們可能應注意而未注意或者我們做得不夠好的部分應該從哪裡去強化我們也請國安單位可以去深入的"},{"start":1047.911,"end":1071.265,"text":"再去探討然後再去做一些修正那剛剛其實也有委員提到利用一點點時間有在講水雷的部分與其要因為我們自己也沒有經驗就水雷的部分到底它多智慧我們不曉得因為都是自己講的而且都是實驗數據如果我們的防空飛彈"},{"start":1072.486,"end":1101.723,"text":"可以做實戰的一些驗證反而這個可能比較有效不要在媒體啊或者這些內宣外宣說我們的防空飛彈做得有多強多強甚至有洩密的這樣的疑慮可是他並沒有實戰的一些相關的驗證資料也不是不要說只要錢這個部分我相信副部長應該聽得懂我們講的內容還有國安局我們就這個部分希望也可以提供一些相關的建議"},{"start":1102.444,"end":1102.669,"text":"好不好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168500","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168500","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5655ee4938da65e1ece4b794ec55972781f6660fd2e3428908f0c425eaf037c48406a17fcd3ca4bb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅美玲","委員發言時間":"10:20:46 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作業指導"},{"start":128.118,"end":142.883,"text":"就是因為在沒有完全沒有按照這SOP來所以呢其實除了這個經濟系統有問題之外人為的這個疏失也很嚴重那我也看到海巡署這邊對相關的人員其實也有做出了一些懲處那之後呢我有看到"},{"start":143.723,"end":170.916,"text":"海巡署就是說未來在建置這個次世代雷達以前呢針對人員操作及後續通報等流程會先訂定雷達系統目標增或及延期功能操作指引我想請教這個部分目前我們到底有沒有在執行這個部分跟剛剛本席所提到的那兩個作業要點跟作業指導它們之間的內容的不一樣的點在哪裡"},{"start":171.616,"end":195.944,"text":"因為之前那兩個作業要點都沒有辦法來執行了那後續我們怎麼來操作這個雷達系統目標增貨及延續功能操作指引請問副主委我這邊特別更為報告那那個案子過以後我們在114年的6月17號有訂定一個雷達系統目標增貨跟延續功能操作指引那這個指引除了提供給各單位"},{"start":196.784,"end":209.449,"text":"依據小學特訓應用以外而且定期的針對重大案例跟請問為事樣態辦理專案的補訓那一直到今到今年的4月10號我們已經總共完成了72場次的這個講席還有我們497位的人做"},{"start":214.211,"end":233.127,"text":"這個教育訓練 另外為了要強化我們目標增厚跟業階能力 那目前我們已經在國內防災認診的特別算裡面 我們針對次世代的雷達 紅外線熱影像跟環島智能監控系統然後而且這個計畫裡面導入AI的自動辨別功能 減少人為的疏失"},{"start":233.667,"end":259.477,"text":"那我想這個系統建築完在1146年全部完成以後可以大幅縮小這個小型目標創案的機率而且可以對於小型目標增握是很有幫助的現在副主委講的其實是兩個部分一個部分呢其實就是關於這個AI智能這個我們未來的雷達設備會導入這個AI智能自動判讀這個設備的部分那另外呢提的就是人員訓練的這個部分"},{"start":261.138,"end":272.811,"text":"可是這個訓練完之後會不會確實來做這個執行這個操作我想這部分你是海巡署這邊要特別要去留意的部分因為我們之前就已經有所謂的作業指導相關的作業指導作業要點可是呢"},{"start":276.215,"end":285.824,"text":"海巡的相關人員並沒有按照這個SOP來做執行來做操作尤其是這個富士監看跟互相通報這個部分其實是在113年6月這個小船登陸的這個事件突顯出來說這部分我們操作人員就是沒有確實來執行"},{"start":294.232,"end":316.774,"text":"所以我們如果訓練完之後如何去做監督如何要求這些操作人員一定要按照這是SOP來做處理那如果沒有的話應該是要做懲處尤其是這跟國土的安全有很大的這個關係我覺得這部分才是重要的我們除了訓練之外之後呢要求他們一定要確實來做執行我想這是海巡署"},{"start":317.375,"end":334.474,"text":"就是要來未來就是要加強的這個部分好那再來還有一點我想請教的就是說像我們現在也有設置紅外線熱影像跟智慧型暗記監控系統那之前我有看到就是說其實這部分的話其實我們還是需要高度的仰賴人員長時間的盯著這個海面來看"},{"start":337.017,"end":354.747,"text":"而且所以說我們這個還沒有完全做到充分的自動化那當然我今天在這報告裡面也提到說我們目前也在積極籌劃籌建紅外線這影像系統跟環保智慧型這個暗記監控系統這跟先前我們的這個系統的差別在哪裡"},{"start":356.696,"end":372.843,"text":"我們次世代雷達跟環線熱影相機環繞周圍監控那這個性能就比現有的性能高出非常多那另外部分這個部分就全部都導入AI的整個判別然後可以自動辨別目標然後減少人為誤判"},{"start":373.363,"end":386.715,"text":"那這個部分特別跟委員報告那這個引進了相關的這些設備以後然後就可以減少剛剛我特別提到的部分就是減少任何的疏失然後可以自動判別然後另外一個部分就是預警的時間會提早"},{"start":388.997,"end":413.44,"text":"所以會比現階段我們現有的這個部分其實是會...就現年高出非常多OK OK 了解那像過去的話我們海巡署也說在106年的時候我們盤點出有168處監偵的這個空隙可能目前我們已經有彌補109處那剩下呢剩下的59處的話我們現在是怎麼樣的處理方式畢竟這也是國安漏洞這個有辦法目前有補強嗎"},{"start":414.701,"end":433.695,"text":"跟委員報告我們剩下來的這幾處我們就全部用我們現在的新採購的相關設備來做彌補那另外在還沒採購之前我們會用機動雷達車還有巡邏的部分還有相互左右邊的這個雷達互相覆蓋的方式以及艦船艇前後的調派的部分來彌補這個雷達盲區"},{"start":438.439,"end":444.107,"text":"這個部分目前在這一個增監的方式上面已經改善非常多"},{"start":445.805,"end":471.907,"text":"提到這個雷達盲區我們就會想到這個無人機像無人機的話它的機動性也比較高對於一些我們說地形有些地形的話它可能就是比較崎嶇的地方也許在雷達它可能沒有辦法監測到其實無人機它是一個很好的輔助工具可是我們所知道的就是說海巡署現役的這個無人機只有16架而且是地帶的那它續航力只有50分鐘"},{"start":473.408,"end":493.619,"text":"其實對現在的這個現行的監偵體系來講的話它的這個效應是有效的那我也了解像之前其實我們海巡署其實有要準備要來籌貨這個第二代的這個無人機可是因為廠商呢可能對某些系統是沒有辦法來做配合後來取消了這個契約那我在想請問海巡署這後續的這無人機的籌貨我們有什麼樣的計畫"},{"start":497.061,"end":521.998,"text":"這邊跟委員包括那其實我們很清楚應該是所有公共機關裡面第一個用無人機來執行勤務還有包括救生救難部分那因為這個機器是在107年當時的環境背景下科技並沒有那麼先進那現在的無人機其實它是非常先進的那剛剛委員特別提到我們第二代的無人機我們在這個去年已經標出去了那今年6月會交機"},{"start":522.779,"end":534.973,"text":"那這六架的無人機它的性能跟這個增收範圍距離還有它的整個功能部分比現在強太多了所以這部分可以完全彌補這我們16架的不足"},{"start":535.464,"end":562.082,"text":"可以說明一下嗎 這六架的性能跟這六架的那個滯空的時間可以長達十個小時可以長達十個小時十個小時 滯空可以十個小時目前是六架 那還沒有這是目前還在六月份會交機什麼時候六月份 現在在做教育訓練OK 好 謝謝那當然這些設備一定要有"},{"start":562.822,"end":580.291,"text":"一定要有經費的支持一定要有這個預算的這個支持那剛剛我們張副主委剛剛提了很多就是說我們針對這些缺失我們會來做補強那可是我們所知道就是說114年度的總預算當中其中有3500萬涉及包含執法裝備籌補救生救難裝備的這個籌補那還有特勤武器籌補精進等預算呢其實都被在野黨凍結了"},{"start":591.656,"end":596.082,"text":"那一百一十五年的總預算呢到現在都還沒有負為審查那會不會影響到我們前面剛剛張副主委所提到的這些設備或者是裝備或者是這些科技這些勤奸證設備的一些補強這個會不會影響"},{"start":607.256,"end":632.643,"text":"我們115年總計的預算編列是294億那我剛剛講的這些科技增添設備裡面這個部分是在特別預算裡面已經通過了然後我們總共有284億那中間有一部分是做無人機、紅外線跟雷達部分、台灣所以這個部分的增加我們的增收範圍跟增收能力的預算是不受影響的那另外在年度預算裡面當然有一部分會受一部分的影響"},{"start":633.803,"end":637.405,"text":"所以目前的話如果說總預算沒有過的話是會對這個裝備跟設備的補強其實是會做會有影響那當然也會影響到這個國土的安全那再來的話我有看到就是說像我們要汰換這個3G 4G M化針偵查系統補強碼頭風化維安工程等等新計劃其實也是在我們的115年度的這個總預算"},{"start":658.118,"end":662.02,"text":"在這裏本期是希望說我們還是要繼續來加強科技的堅貞的執法再來還有相關人員這個訓練其實也是非常的重要我們也希望海巡署能夠繼續保護台灣海疆跟德國土的安全以上謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168499","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168499","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5655ee4938da65e17ead159bd56890e181f6660fd2e3428908f0c425eaf037c48406a17fcd3ca4bb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王定宇","委員發言時間":"10:06:38 - 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這部分早上跟媒體朋友在做說明這一次中共的操作大概有三個層面戰略面就強調台海的核戰是由他來主導來排除外力的介入另外一部分是在政治上強調所謂的中華民族的偉大復興還有兩岸和平的制度化"},{"start":90.222,"end":106.428,"text":"內容都只有中華人民共和國的語彙導到所謂的一中的政治框架那再來就是經濟上的一個吸納來增加我們對它的一個經濟市場力量有啊 它的金馬四通也好 或者公共國際市場當然那個議題要好好討論 而且應該是政府對政府那個是建立一程度"},{"start":107.348,"end":127.074,"text":"把他內化進去我剛才問的是說我們國安會有沒有針對這個局勢因為後面還有川習會有沒有針對這個進行討論我們都有在各部會交換相關的意見那也對於最新的發展由各部會來對外做完整的所以國安會有進行討論那我要請教啦就你們目前分析這個所謂十大會台會的是誰"},{"start":128.712,"end":150.991,"text":"對,我今天早上就跟媒體說明了這種所謂會台措施大概每到台灣選舉期間就會被提出來討論那兩岸的觀光或是農漁產品的採購也是歷來都被拿出來做中方的一個操作那所以我們在解讀上認為這是一個統戰跟競選的一個手法我看起來不管叫中小企業去投資現在中國的經濟下滑嘛"},{"start":151.872,"end":176.606,"text":"台灣的經濟還不錯去投資到底是匯到誰那比方說他又要開放農產品農產品我們吃的虧還不夠多啊2019年以前我們台灣的農產品80%其實是內銷的兩成左右外銷以前兩成左右外銷像我們關廟的鳳梨我們外銷大概有八成多以前依賴中國市場他莫名其妙沒有理由的一下鳳梨一下蓮霧一下鳳梨釋迦"},{"start":179.124,"end":201.965,"text":"他想要製造我們外銷的農產品出不去回來影響到我們國內市場以農逼政後來從2020年開始前政府蔡英文政府到現在我們的分散市場已經把對中國依賴的八成左右現在降到大概10%上下已經壓低了像鳳梨現在日本是我們第一大市場我請教陸委會副主委這是你的業務"},{"start":203.246,"end":223.983,"text":"有關中國的十大會台他有一個政治前提他的一中是沒有中華民國的啦他的反台獨中國的反台獨是台灣中華民國維持現狀任何主權形式的用途他都定義成台獨他加了兩個政治前提才要跟你隱世交流才要跟你中小企業等等等等"},{"start":224.884,"end":232.512,"text":"然後他這個過程是單向決定沒有我們政府的角色透過在野黨扶植在國內的附庸陸委會對這事情態度是什麼"},{"start":237.353,"end":260.561,"text":"陸委會的看法是這樣就是說這一次對中共來講的話它所獲得的不管在統戰上的效果在國際社會上面的宣傳的效果對美中台關係影響的效果然後對接下來可能美台軍售的影響效果都遠遠大於這十項所謂的會台措施"},{"start":261.98,"end":280.652,"text":"就是說中共整個他在宣傳上的這個得到的好處這個實相措施是根本是遠遠不能比的這實相措施其實你仔細看了他其實過去都是曾經有過的都講過的比較新的可能就是所謂遠洋漁船的這個部分"},{"start":281.493,"end":304.769,"text":"那這個部分我們還在研究但是其他的部分其實對台灣的不管是他其實其他是舊瓶裝舊酒不過你剛才講的翻譯起來是說這個十大會談以前都提過了對那對台灣有沒有什麼好處遠不如對中國的好處沒有錯甚至於對台灣的傷害有關對美軍購啦我們對外的相關的事情安全的事務那個傷害"},{"start":305.529,"end":323.974,"text":"弊大於利你剛才表達的是這個嗎沒有錯我請教他們說要開放自由行我們現在政府的態度是什麼自由行也是兩岸相關協議的其中的一個部分自由行跟團體行都是我們過去曾經有過的協議的一部分"},{"start":324.514,"end":349.672,"text":"那自由行他們是2019年就把它片面斷掉了那所以要再開的話這個就跟要重開這個團體行是一樣的也就是說我們還是希望說兩邊的小兩會能夠先做會談會談把一些東西敲定之後再來進行但是因為我們一直發出多次的呼籲希望對方能夠跟我們重新啟動小兩會的"},{"start":352.033,"end":373.211,"text":"這個協商但是目前對方是完全沒有回應所以團體型的部分一直都卡在這邊那現在又突然又要講說要自由行那我覺得狀況還是一樣就是說不管團體型自由行都是要他們的口頭表示是開放可是作為上根本是不處理對作為上沒有他完全不處理譬如說他說他幾個兩三個月前"},{"start":377.134,"end":397.772,"text":"宣布說什麼上海上海可以到上海居民可以到金門馬祖但是到目前為止他們並沒有宣布具體的措施因為那個不是開放就開放我要去你家也要約時間啊對沒有錯要從門進去還是從窗進去那一樣的一個國家要入境有很多東西要處理所以他現在在實質的作為上沒有做法"},{"start":398.372,"end":420.263,"text":"恐會而實不至目前沒有看到目前阻擋的不是我們嘛我們是開放的態度大家可以來談他現在是不跟我們的官方談片面要放那上一次說上海可以到金門到目前為止也沒有實質的執行層次的磋商都沒有沒有錯因為大陸大陸人民他要到台灣來他必須當地的公安局他必須要說"},{"start":421.884,"end":441.852,"text":"大家可以來申請我可以批准你到我們講這個大同鎮批准你到台灣去那現在上海市的不然是上海市的公安局也好福建市的公安局也好福建省的公安局也好都沒有宣布說上海居民可以申請到台灣去的旅遊簽證"},{"start":443.152,"end":469.414,"text":"所以就是一個口頭宣示沒有實質做法不過他好像很刻意的就是迴避跟台灣民選的政府進行接觸這個是不切實際的啦公權力台灣是民主國家公權力的授權來自於人民選舉的結果你迴避公權力的授權怎麼處理入出境的問題好那個副主委先請回我繼續請教我們國安局局長那也請國安部副部長上來啦"},{"start":471.44,"end":479.526,"text":"我現在這個是發想有關這一個掃雷的東西那個梁文傑副主委可以回座"},{"start":481.873,"end":510.051,"text":"現在我們從塑膠袋到石油到柏油AC其實都因為荷姆茲海峽鎖住了造成全球這個部分的需求量暴增供應量不足所以坦白講先不講大的經濟層面的影響其實對我們的民生各方面的需求其實有些影響那在地緣政治上你也看到了川普一直表達說你們都是我的好朋友都沒有來幫忙他還威脅要退出北約"},{"start":511.613,"end":523.644,"text":"那當然我們台灣在能參與的事務很有限美國也未必能接受所以我請教國安局跟國防部的副部長在安全無虞的前提下"},{"start":524.83,"end":546.963,"text":"在物料後勤補給可以得到備援下我們台灣適不適合表達我們願意支援雷雷掃雷雖然我們現在有的我們這個有的量人不高而且都是禁案的就是不管是永豐籍的永進籍的那表達我們的意願這個gesture國安局認為如何"},{"start":548.025,"end":571.827,"text":"委員提的是一個假設性的議題這未必假設 你表達出去他接受了是一件事情 他不接受 感謝你的善意也是一件事情當現在荷姆茲海峽 其實現在因為水雷就算他們停戰協議停完了 兩邊不打了船也不好過去 就是因為水雷的問題裡面遍佈數千枚水雷"},{"start":572.668,"end":584.505,"text":"那我們如果向美方表達說我們願意支援列雷掃雷但是我們有一些顧慮安全啦後勤補給啦表達這樣的意願他不是假設而是說這樣表達適不適合"},{"start":586.226,"end":611.645,"text":"基本上因為我會講的是假設性問題是目前並不是一個議題那假如像委員的這樣一個推論的話那就國安局的角度我只代表國安局來做評估的話我們會注意到的是整體的中東的安全情勢那以及台灣畢竟跟其他的美國盟友不太一樣我們還必須要審慎的評估我們當面敵情的動態你才有辦法去做一些相關病例的調整跟調度那當然後續還有一個能量的評估畢竟"},{"start":612.425,"end":625.912,"text":"中共地區還是比較有一些後勤補給設施必須要處理的局勢也複雜所以這部分可能是比較複雜的我請教國防部副部長你從赫姆茲在海峽其實就了解其實"},{"start":627.603,"end":652.802,"text":"水雷這個或者智慧水雷這種不對稱戰力其實你看伊朗伊朗跟美軍的實力那個沒辦法比較的可是他用水雷把赫姆斯海峽封住了所以我現在請教你請你簡短回答第一個就是我國當然我們前面造了幾艘布雷艇我們的布雷跟智慧水雷的進度第二個我們現在掃雷艦我在去年看到你們的報告要走向所謂的智慧排雷"},{"start":653.542,"end":670.82,"text":"無人載具的排雷這個進度如何第三個一樣的問題在安全後勤補給無餘下台灣去表達這樣的gesture說我們願意支援川普 願意支援美國國防部的評估如何這三個題目請你回答"},{"start":671.624,"end":696.244,"text":"先回答委員第三個題目當然委員這個想法相當有創意我們是沒有這麼想過但是我想關鍵還是委員講的兩個前提就是後勤補給跟保障方面那我們那個船這您可以看到並不大要開到荷姆斯恐怕很難開過去了沒辦法可能要用船載的方式"},{"start":696.804,"end":710.584,"text":"那這個就恐怕要看這個條件具不具足另外剛才國安局局長也說了我們也非常同意其實我們台海周邊戰備的負荷是很重的所以這個"},{"start":713.287,"end":740.782,"text":"貢建常常在襲擾那我們這個非常有限的掃雷的戰力是不是合出去我們還要評估不過委員這個想法我們再回去評估這是那個前提很重要我只是說這個議題可以思考但是第一題跟第二題才是真正的命題我們自己的水雷智慧水雷的能力我們自己的排雷 列雷 掃雷的能力國防部現在有沒有計畫因為我看我們預算都放在"},{"start":741.704,"end":753.456,"text":"主力艦一級艦二級艦三級艦那對於這一種其實老舊的船艦資源性的船艦其實蠻嚴重的啦國防部目前有什麼想法我們請海軍參謀長回答一下"},{"start":757.731,"end":782.931,"text":"韓軍常務長 針對委員的題目我們這邊回答狀況是第一個有關掃雷的建制我們目前持續在做但是我們是重點在濱海作戰的這個區域裡面不管是掃雷或是真雷你們無人載具掃雷的部分開始做了嗎我們是後續在規劃 是還在規劃當中嗎 是沒有實施的戰力掃雷的載具的部分有關掃雷艇的部分我們就持續建案在執行的"},{"start":784.391,"end":804.398,"text":"所以你認為我們現在掃雷、排雷的能力夠不夠?我們在持續在做就是遠遠不夠嗎?我們布雷的能力呢?布雷的能力包含了整備的能力還有後續我們剛剛有關建造,持續在建造布雷艇的部分我們數量會持續的增加,目前在持續的建構中"},{"start":805.937,"end":820.498,"text":"有啦,前幾年在榮德那邊造了幾艘嘛那智慧水雷的進度呢?這個持續在車禍中你這樣也沒有回答今年會弄出來嗎?目前是在努力中"},{"start":821.482,"end":841.191,"text":"因為我們之前看到某一個美商有提供一種型號嘛是那個有進行討論嗎有有討論是那有要做還是還在討論中我們是在討論中是我覺得荷姆斯海峽是一個很好的借鏡是那時間未必站在我們這邊啦是你們持續加油謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"168469","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168469","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5655ee4938da65e17558682b78e1e4ba413783e2c4a522d3aa0fde58f0e31cf28b382dd59e615ff75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱若華","委員發言時間":"10:51:41 - 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主委早 主委首先還是要和您討論和確認我們國家的基礎建設所需要的基礎關鍵資材剛剛有很多委員 包括徐副會委員也有提到也就是濾清雖然看起來只是一般的材料 可是也是關乎到國人的日常生活道路維護"},{"start":35.043,"end":49.487,"text":"那我們現在的情況是台灣正面臨國際原物料的波動還有國內產能供給調整的雙重佳績所以想要先請問主委那這樣子的雙重因素兩個因素加在一起會不會影響接下來的公共工程的正常執行呢這個"},{"start":52.389,"end":79.027,"text":"因為是戰爭嘛所以引起的原油進來台灣受限所以導致柏油減產那濾清就少所以公共工程委內也發函那麼也發新聞稿像這樣的因素導致你的成本增加那麼雙方就主辦機關跟這個業者可以做物調主委您現在掌握到他漲幅的程度是多少實際漲幅我請這個我們來說明"},{"start":89.486,"end":109.314,"text":"這個是之前的資料啦 是那麼北部漲幅大概14%中部漲幅10%那麼南部漲幅16%東部漲幅13%這個是 應該這個資料你們說到的這些漲幅都是在20%以內那目前它公會 立慶公會它有表示已經上漲35%了嘛"},{"start":111.095,"end":127.868,"text":"那我也有特別看到經濟部說目前的存量可以到五月底如果後續順利的話就是可以延長至六月那行政院也有表示他會優先供應緊急重大的工程那這邊還是要請教主委喔那我們現行的處理方式還是事後才來申請嗎"},{"start":131.059,"end":157.832,"text":"我們先行的制度就是等廠商來申請然後等價格他反映了他的指數反映之後才再來調整這個就是禮約的過禮約的協調啦所以我們也同意說公共工程的方面是要能夠做物調啦我整個量跟委員說明台穗化的紫光是中塑那邊還有四萬五千噸的庫存那"},{"start":159.012,"end":171.647,"text":"所以這個對工程會來說是安全的庫存量嗎對 中碩他也會停止就是國外契約供應商的需求會優先提供國內那台灣中油他會去採購現貨"},{"start":173.869,"end":191.882,"text":"所以根據我得到的資料,這個台塑化它也增加了生產的比例所以目前是沒有問題,柏油的供應是沒有問題的現在主委的說明,不過還是要請問主委一個問題你們有沒有去跨部會然後進行協商機制將公共工程用的瀝青把它列為優先的配收物質瀝青,是公共工程用的瀝青"},{"start":198.439,"end":212.458,"text":"這個就看合約啦所以我們初步了解是沒有問題那我下午也會再召集另外一次協商啦那比較確定各部會還有這個相關供應商那麼對於柏油力清的供應的狀況"},{"start":213.779,"end":241.078,"text":"請主委去做深度的討論那這邊美心也想要請教主委是不是可以建立一個自動觸發的調整機制針對這些高波動像是力清因為我也看到在去年114在114年的時候力清它的關鍵原料像是柏油還有它的燃料有受到國際能源的波動它曾經一度漲幅到20%那它每噸是1.25萬台幣那我這邊想請問你們最新在網站上面公告的價格是多少"},{"start":244.351,"end":265.1,"text":"跟委員報告 那我們濾清混凝土的價格那我們根據查的歷史資料來查的話應該是說一直到今年二月其實價格都差不多那唯一有一個波動是到那個就是我想要問的問題因為你們最新公布的資料到二月二十八為什麼只有到二月二十八號但是三月份的話我們是最近才要公布最近什麼時候才會公布"},{"start":266.92,"end":287.61,"text":"我們大概最近這個禮拜就會這個禮拜就會公佈這個禮拜才會公佈三月那我們觀察到這個波動其實真的就是今年的三月相較於二月以前他的波動就是剛剛主委跟您說明的那幾個幅度確實是在20%那現在剛剛主委也曾經也說明過其實根據經濟部所掌握的這個瀝青油的"},{"start":287.85,"end":315.992,"text":"那沒關係 那我再來請教主委主委您應該說不會影響國內的重大公共建設嗎還有公共工程嗎所以供應量是沒有問題 那麼行政院呢副院長也是每個禮拜召開那麼這些有關的那同時 因為中油公司他也把他產能轉向高他高價值的油品那三月也對例行開市進行管控了那這樣子也會導致地方政府的工程也會連帶送餘下因為我看到平均進場施工的時間拉到二到四週拉長到二到四週"},{"start":317.546,"end":346.492,"text":"就是我們把它簡單來區分了就是關於禮約的問題將來會到工程會來諮詢或者是協商那工程會都同意那麼支持物條那主委您要特別留意喔因為現在目前桃園就已經有工程包商他們表示因為買不到料而要他們就是說先申請暫時停工喔那我們不希望等到時候全國的道路也連帶的受影響因為我跟委員報告就是目前掌握的狀況不會有供應沒有問題啦"},{"start":347.532,"end":350.575,"text":"國際情勢兩個來源,台灣中油跟台塑化,台灣中油也在購買現貨接下來進入汛期,如果很不幸的風災還是颱風,道路鋪面受到影響"},{"start":371.973,"end":382.117,"text":"所以行政院一直在掌控相關的民生物資的價格 包括濾青每個禮拜都會開一次會大型的捷運工程他近年也淪為營造市場的高風險標案甚至是拒絕往來戶 你有沒有意識到這個問題"},{"start":394.304,"end":418.585,"text":"土方呢是土方的這個方案已經30多年了那過去設置土資場然後到土資場之後篩分之後分成有加料去做其他使用或者是廢棄物或者是進行加工但是土資場的量事實上是現實上它是不夠容納那麼多土方的啦"},{"start":419.327,"end":423.125,"text":"土坊也是集中一環嘛所有的土地產把它加起來"},{"start":424.466,"end":452.559,"text":"所有的土方根本量比那個超過很多那些東西到哪裡去了過去只是大家有一個灰色地帶土方是其中一環那我這邊也要跟主委提到那種本席舉例桃園的捷運工程延伸中立段它已經流標四次了今年又重新招標又流標已經總共第五次了那它的底價其實已經就是提高到將近八成可是還是沒有廠商願意投標你們在你們之前也有提到其實流標率是40%沒有錯吧那要怎麼來改善這個問題"},{"start":453.499,"end":479.191,"text":"如果是因為土方的問題那土方的戰志或填海等等那麼內政部一直在努力當中除了內政部努力當中那工程會這邊針對廠商然後他們的意願你們要怎麼來就是協助他們工程會當然會協助內政部那麼就土方的機制土方土方的機制跟去處相關法規那麼我站在"},{"start":480.311,"end":504.592,"text":"監證政委的身份讓某位持續在協調當中其實土方只是其中一個因素那當然就是缺工缺料整大環境的因素下造成就是工程會延宕然後還有流標嗎那這邊也要特別提醒主委那現在工程會的問題你們不是沒有制度而是你們的制度都是還是停留在低波動的時代那什麼時候你們會去正視這個問題就是把現在高波動的風險也納入你們的考量"},{"start":508.257,"end":535.155,"text":"我們兩個方案嘛可以可以同意物條這是我們的主張嘛另外就供期的部分呢也希望說這個機關跟這個業者可以合意那麼也可以這個增加供期這是要解決目前這樣子的一個招標遇到困難的問題好那謝謝主委您的說明那也再請把最新的價格趕緊放在公共工程網的網站上面好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168468","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168468","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5655ee4938da65e18db9642ec107fd1d413783e2c4a522d3aa0fde58f0e31cf28b382dd59e615ff75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"萬美玲","委員發言時間":"10:29:17 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謝謝主席 我們有請陳主委有請陳主委 那萬美齡委員資訊我們休息十分鐘 好 謝謝委員長"},{"start":16.069,"end":37.005,"text":"好 主委早主委我想根據花蓮馬太安溪艷澀湖災後重建特別條例我們很清楚知道主管紀萬氏行政院公共工程委員會就您這裡那本席也看到在工程會的業報當中施政成果跟重點你第一點就寫到是統籌災後復建重建深入災區強化協調 對嗎"},{"start":40.352,"end":67.337,"text":"那主委剛剛報告當中我也聽到馬太安西燕色湖災後重建中央協調匯報是由陳主委擔任執行秘書每個月都會定期操開這個協調匯報來統合跨部會的資源協力推動災後災區重建的工作而且您也說到說工程會已經依馬太安重建條例第11條規定建置這個重建的專區那確保民眾可以及時因為大家都很關心嘛"},{"start":67.777,"end":85.092,"text":"即時獲取正確完整的資訊那麼公開的內容我想是不是請主委看一下這個就是專區嗎這個是專區的內容嗎我是不是請負責的主管沒有主委先回答一下沒有錯吧因為應該是啦我從你的官網上拉下來的嘛"},{"start":87.72,"end":106.902,"text":"就這一個 就這個部分 因為這是你官網就沒有意義啦所以你也不要那麼緊張喔 我們就來看一下喔你看喔 現在在這個光復體防一標 二標 三標的部分 大家都完成了但是在導流體保護工的這個部分 實際進度其實只有36%跟7%然後你看 你的預定完工要在4月18號 可能嗎"},{"start":110.688,"end":122.663,"text":"跟委員報告齁 那個這個是水利署那時候資料填錯那我們同仁有發現之後已經請那個水利署水利署資料給錯 好 主委他們登記錯誤 所以我們同仁發現現在不好意思喔 這個是你們的專區耶"},{"start":124.401,"end":130.704,"text":"這是你們的官網專區你賴到水利署去這樣有對嗎當然是業務是水利署在執行所以你看這個應該這麼講就是說你是要負責協調然後配合督導考核等等的可是在你的官網上面資料嚴重錯誤按照你講嚴重錯誤我們來看到你所提的這個水利署"},{"start":146.852,"end":167.094,"text":"你看訊息就要來了如果按照你剛剛所說的進度還這麼落後甚至於這個下游才7%這是很可怕的事情耶所以呢其實是本席去問了水利署說你們的進度怎麼會這樣水利署才說沒有啊我們的進度很好啊我們來看下一張簡報那我們來看到這個導流題的進度下一張"},{"start":170.755,"end":191.648,"text":"現在這個進度在這個馬太安溪你們自己的官網上面有寫到上游是36.2%那下游是7.78%然後呢這個水利署給我們的這個資料是其實它已經在上游完成了85%下游是72%那水利署的部分也告訴我們說沒有啊它是這樣子跟你們回報的啊就你們資料現在弄錯在這裡答詢還要賴給水利署怎麼對啊"},{"start":196.425,"end":219.57,"text":"整個水利工程在第一二三標的堤防就是這個藍邊的這個主要的高規格堤防會如期來完成主委我跟您報告喔這個部分呢是因為我們發現了這個地方我們去跟水利署詢問才發現水利署很認真在做工程的進度現在也如期但是呢我覺得既然呢我們工程會是一個協調啦這個審核的一個機關啊你怎麼可以在官網上面的這個數字這麼隨便啊"},{"start":224.991,"end":230.456,"text":"我覺得這個可能要請同仁再加強要用心一點啦好 這個我們來改進這是弄錯了對不對是不是至少要知道現在有沒有錯 錯在哪裡啊如果本席提出這樣的書頂都還不知道這就更可怕了一點正確的已經在官網上主委你知道正確的怎麼會在官網上嗎也是今天早上才改的啊"},{"start":251.277,"end":274.069,"text":"你今天早上才改的 也就是說你昨天的進度大概7%今天就可以 來到72%你是弄錯了不用說明了 這很清楚就是弄錯了那我覺得主委 如果有弄錯官罰上面的東西其實也很重要從這個小地方也可以看得出來其實大家嚴謹度謹慎度不夠所以我希望主委能夠督導一下那更用心一點 可以嗎好 沒問題"},{"start":275.109,"end":302.517,"text":"那接下來呢 一樣喔 百姓問了非常多次在這個總諮詢的時候也跟這個院長交換過意見就是我們桃園鐵路地下化喔那主委你自己剛剛在報告最後也有提到說工程會始終致力於協助各機關解決在公共工程推動過程中遇到的困難跟障礙嘛你也特別提到這個部分確保公共工程可以順利進行喔但是主委啊 我們桃園鐵路地下化目前遇到的困難跟障礙你有掌握嗎"},{"start":305.54,"end":322.057,"text":"台灣鐵路地下化這個進度有的是過去有些改善有些跟原計畫有一些更動那麼有些修正計畫那主委知道為什麼有這些更動嗎這是地方提出來的不是啦 主委"},{"start":323.098,"end":344.931,"text":"我覺得你既然是要督導這些公共工程就要很了解到底發生什麼事情嘛你當然是地方提出來為什麼會提出來因為中央的工程延宕了嘛這個發包的工程是在中央那我們過去有各種問題不管是這個缺工缺料不管是疫情不管是我們看到有文資保存等等但是工程就是在中央督導之下去延宕了所以我們才會有變更計畫那變更計畫出來了以後呢我們現在有一個變更計畫的預算還躺在行政院啊"},{"start":350.834,"end":365.388,"text":"所以現在是預算沒有下來 地方當然就不能動嘛所以這個大概769億的預算始終沒有核定我是在想 這也是屬於我們現在最大的困難就在這個地方是不是主委可以跟行政院這邊趕快催促一下我們這個核定計畫可以趕快核下來給我們 可以嗎"},{"start":369.846,"end":382.022,"text":"行政院正在審核當中因為相關全國的軌道建設經費非常龐大那有些這個根據今年度的根據這個"},{"start":385.046,"end":398.342,"text":"財政收支方法的編列有牽涉到未來的計畫型補助跟一般型補助的比例所以行政院向來就是很慎重在調解當中那我們會盡速來完成這個審議"},{"start":399.864,"end":416.572,"text":"您剛剛說我們要解決幫忙各機關去解決困難就是要知道他困難在哪裡您說的其實本席不認同啦我想上一次院長在跟我提到財化法的時候我當場也有跟他講其實這個跟財化法並沒有很大的關係為什麼我要這樣子講第一個呢過去財化法還沒有開始的時候其實進度就是嚴重延宕那個延宕才產生了變更計畫當中多出來的預算這是第一個第二個我們都知道這個"},{"start":427.838,"end":454.054,"text":"鐵道的這個工程是歸中央來這個掌管喔那本來就是應該中央來協助地方嘛那再來呢我們財化法這件事情講到我都講嘴破不想再講了財化法這個東西不管是以前賴清德在做這個地方首長的時候或者是現在大家都知道要擬平地方跟中央財政的一個缺口或讓它更平衡所以這個財化法從以前到現在民進黨也好國民黨也好大家都認為是要修的所以不要把工程的延宕又講到財化法再來"},{"start":455.655,"end":461.462,"text":"再來我再告訴你一個問題 再來我再告訴你一個問題再來我再告訴你一個問題 你是要講還是要聽啊沒有修成這樣 你不用聽喔不是啊 我們在質詢 你不要聽怎麼知道我要問什麼問題啊那你現在要聽還是要講 大家不要用這種方式來打詢好不好這種方式打詢不好啦 我們要把問題聽清楚嘛"},{"start":477.796,"end":492.87,"text":"你認為是才化法 但是這個問題呢院長提出來的時候 我有跟他溝通他也沒有再這麼堅持那再來呢 我剛剛提到鐵路 軌道的這個建設尤其是我們鐵路地下化是中央需辦事項那你知道嗎 你剛剛講到才化法那我們就來講嘛"},{"start":494.091,"end":520.731,"text":"我們現在那個萬大樹林線二期喔然後再來高雄小港陵園線它的追加經費的這個變更計畫也過啦不但過了 中央還分它的比例還更多那這是怎麼樣 這是因為看黨派嗎我一直不想這樣子講欸對不對 建設是國家的建設啦誰都有可能來桃園做到鐵路地下化的成果嘛那為什麼我們這個萬大樹林線的二期跟高雄小港陵園線就可以合訂呢"},{"start":522.268,"end":544.202,"text":"這個整個鐵道建設軌道建設全國非常多啦這裡一千例那裡兩千例那裡九百億整個中央整個行政院必須統籌來評估啦那至於台灣鐵路地下化沒有什麼黨派他從過去就提出來嘛鄭文燦當八年台灣市長努力爭取調高了很多這個相關的預算這個都是歷史"},{"start":544.702,"end":548.531,"text":"所以行政院不會特別考量現在誰當市長或者是當市長所以我只是說錢的問題那行政院在審議當中"},{"start":554.264,"end":580.834,"text":"那跟過去誰提出來財化法要修沒有相關是嘛那財化法是你剛剛提的嘛現在你又說沒有相關我要講啦這個是鄭文燦市長當時啊也上來跟國發會很認真的去爭取希望中央的比例能夠負擔更多一點嘛所以我們也很謝謝鄭文燦市長啊所以沒有再分藍綠嘛但現在的問題就在於既然其他我們有重大的公共工程尤其是交通工程我們在變更計畫跟經費的增加上面我們都有核定"},{"start":581.594,"end":602.624,"text":"主委我們這個鐵路地下化這個最佳預算已經提出來八個月了八個月了那到底是什麼情況你也幫我們關心一下嘛站在你的立場你幫我們關心一下可不可以這個我們會了解啦只是我跟你報告就是說全國的軌道件非常多那有的修正計畫一再修正也有審議相當久的桃園並不是特例啦"},{"start":602.824,"end":614.771,"text":"哪一個比桃園8個月更久 你告訴我哪一個你在這邊都提出來說有更久的 表示你知道啊那如果你不知道就是在這邊亂說一通是不是 這哪一個嘛哪一項計畫比我們更久 你告訴我哪一項計畫呢"},{"start":618.304,"end":642.982,"text":"怎麼可以這樣 你根本都不知道 你就在這邊搪塞全國重大預算 修正的不是 主委 應該這樣講嘛你自己跟我說 其實喔這個五個月的預算 八個月不算久 有很多比我們更久那你胸有成竹的講出來 現在在備詢 你就應該要告訴我是哪一個更久 如果這是一個常態 那我們吞下來它如果不是一個常態 為什麼桃園要等待特別久呢你知道這種交通黑暗期 對我們桃園那真的是 我們所有的市民苦不堪言啊"},{"start":644.875,"end":657.344,"text":"所以哪一個呢 哪一個計畫比我們更久 你告訴我我會去了解再跟委員報告什麼時候什麼時候可以跟我回覆我們全國來這個整個調整 來整個來審全國現在才下去了解 然後你跟我講有"},{"start":658.496,"end":680.684,"text":"我們會提供給你啦到底有還是沒有嘛我們去查所以你不知道你剛剛還告訴我說其實有比我們更久的主委不可以這樣啦真的不可以這樣我建議把答詢的態度改變一下有就是有 沒有就是沒有要再查就是要再查你不可以告訴我說你桃園八個月不算久核定還沒下來也不算什麼你不可以這樣子啦金費不算少啦所以不像說一般工程能夠立即的核定"},{"start":686.826,"end":690.748,"text":"所以行政院 我一直在注意桃園鐵路地下化的工作我們一再同意修正計劃"},{"start":704.175,"end":722.261,"text":"那如果您這也同意而且一再的修正 一再的增加沒有 修正已經最後計畫送出去了已經送出去了那時就是在行政院這麼久了沒有再修正過了所以呢 您剛剛也說您同意來協助那就拜託您是不是可以跟院長講一下到底問題在哪裡要不然趕快核定給我們 好嗎好好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168467","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168467","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5655ee4938da65e1d2d8844bfb733699413783e2c4a522d3aa0fde58f0e31cf239431ddb69bbbff55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳清龍","委員發言時間":"10:18:23 - 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謝謝主席 請我們陳金德陳主委好 請陳主委好 謝謝委員長好 主委長那這邊我們今天的一個報告我們最主要有很大的一個重點在討論到我們花蓮馬太安溪的財後重建"},{"start":36.943,"end":52.44,"text":"那這個部分我想在報告裡面 主委這邊有一個簡要的說明那也告訴了我們可以在我們這個災後護院重建專區這樣的一個網頁網站裡面也可以來看到各項的計畫"},{"start":58.803,"end":77.735,"text":"那從去年災害到現在我們看到的產出著冷看到民間的一個動力但是我看到我們的報告我們總共編列了270億的一個特別預算那目前八個部會提出了39項的計畫其實這些計畫"},{"start":82.178,"end":104.595,"text":"我們現在報行政院來核准從網站的資料從報告的資料是4月2號才陸續核定所以我們現在在這個網頁重建專區裡面看到的也只有核准的公文跟核准的計畫那這個部分我跟你講那個不用急主委很簡單我"},{"start":106.696,"end":131.585,"text":"需要我們工程會這邊把我們現在執行財後重建的各個計畫的進度可能目前碰到的一個狀況或困難需要怎麼樣來解決處理的這樣的一個報告一個資料能夠詳細的提供給本席就好好沒問題好不好一個禮拜之內好不好好沒問題好那就麻煩我們主委這邊"},{"start":132.845,"end":149.994,"text":"第二個我想主委不只是我們工程會的主委也是我們的政務委員那對目前內政部國土署有關土方這樣的一個措施其實從年初宣布到現在問題已止了"},{"start":152.415,"end":175.246,"text":"沒有解決 不解決啦 困難要趕快喔 困難要趕快那最重要的已經應用到我們地方的公共工程這個公共工程也包括我們中央這個營建的廢棄土 公共的廢棄土沒有出戶 沒出戶它延伸的這些土房不曉得要到哪裡去第二個 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它是負責提供土地嘛"},{"start":336.967,"end":348.142,"text":"整個那個土方的一個區處管理還有港區有很多他自己本身的限制條件包括你車要賣給他才有的這個大型車輛不能進入啦還有他有"},{"start":353.889,"end":379.779,"text":"牽涉到南端跟北端嘛有的要換坪等等很多崗位要注意這個部分我們工程會這邊 政府這邊跟港務局跟台中市政府你們有合法的去合作嗎目前全部大概有台北港啦還有高雄 高雄港這本來就一個南興計畫我現在問你台中港啦你告訴我台中港 你不要告訴我台北港台中中部的部分喔"},{"start":381.36,"end":382.541,"text":"台中港是一個新的天然氣接收站"},{"start":398.387,"end":421.413,"text":"填海 這個要經過相關的計劃對 如果要填海 這些廢棄土能不能填海 這些相關規則我今天問你台中港這個問題就是說這牽涉到我們因為土方的處置新制的一個產生的影響現在推出來的方案就是暫除"},{"start":422.553,"end":440.601,"text":"暫存在台中港那目前完全沒有進度嘛完全沒有進度嘛所以在這樣沒有進度的時候我也提出一個方案就是這個方案就是是不是公部門跟私部門可以直接來交換"},{"start":442.822,"end":466.829,"text":"就是我們這裡有很多公共工程,我們也有民間的工程你曉得我主要說,台中的土豐,除了營建內置物,不要說整個土豐開發下去都是好的歷史、好的材料如果我們公共工程有需要,民間的營建工程要有它的出入,是不是啊?"},{"start":467.469,"end":496.368,"text":"可以來中介來做這樣的平台就是公部門跟私部門 不用說是吸直接需求跟供給能夠直接來出平台公對私 公對公 私對私 一步一步來做這樣可以生很多成本 而且直接來協助解決而且這樣的一個方案 就有從媒體的一個報導"},{"start":497.489,"end":514.045,"text":"我看到台南目前就這樣做 他們有發布新聞稿 他們這樣做如果台南這樣做 我們工程會也OK 大家都OK是不是專攻 有機會來這樣做這個就是去土跟虛土機關的交換"},{"start":515.205,"end":536.42,"text":"這個交換本的制度就存在那各縣市政府呢他也可以成立土方銀行來收或者是去化這個是也是地方政府就台中市來講我有知道我們有供應的利益就是那個供應的土資廠對土資廠但是就沒辦法根本解決問題嘛我現在提出的就是說由"},{"start":537.421,"end":546.422,"text":"由政府 地方政府 那跟我們中央這邊啊大家一起來推動 讓他變一個 一個很好的制度化"},{"start":547.475,"end":570.256,"text":"我們會期待是這樣嘛,台南都OK啊,我們潮州澳門、台南都做到這麼好,是不是有機會?好,另外一個重點就是潮州澳門,我們有聽到魯明哲議員有提到濾清的問題嘛,濾清的問題也牽涉到我們地方的公共工程,不是跟你同樣的"},{"start":571.637,"end":586.715,"text":"大型的公共工程,地方的小型工程啊,給人家齁,我過去齁,我以後來日本人啊,能夠爲成更野岸,肯定更野岸,在台中市中更野岸,真的沒想到多少問題都說,哎,委員,真的你錢有問題啊,土方,不只沒氣出,"},{"start":592.421,"end":593.222,"text":"所有地方基層基礎的建設全部停頓"},{"start":622.381,"end":628.066,"text":"現在我們工程會這邊可以跟各縣市政府來協助跟輔導啦從我們對衡的建設 需要的什麼 跟我們租住投放的問題都可以跟我們順利來開闊好 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123"},{"start":1352.95,"end":1371.863,"text":"我們今天開始我們第五個會期財政委員會第七次的全體委員會的會議程序請主任秘書報告出席委員的人數報告委員會出席委員與主法定人數好我們現在開始開會請議事人員宣讀上次的會議記錄"},{"start":1373.51,"end":1397.901,"text":"立法院第十一屆第五會期財政委員會第六次全體委員會議實錄時間中華民國一百一十五年三月三十日星期一九十至十二時十二分地點七仙樓九樓大禮堂出席委員林德福等十四人 第七委員葛如君等七人第七官員中央銀行總裁楊金榮暨所屬單位主管財經資訊股份有限公司董事長林國良主席吳昭吉委員秉瑞"},{"start":1399.739,"end":1427.649,"text":"報告事項 依宣讀上次會議事錄決定議事錄確定而邀請中央銀行楊總裁金榮率所屬單位主管及財經資訊股份有限公司董事長列協會報告並備資訊經中央銀行總裁楊金榮提出報告後即由委員林德甫等16人提出資訊均經中央銀行總裁楊金榮財經資訊股份有限公司董事長林國良及所屬相關人員予以答覆決定一 報告信訊答完畢二 委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資訊"},{"start":1429.309,"end":1440.557,"text":"請中央銀行一週內已書面答覆委立要期期限者從期鎖定三案委員陳冠廷所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報並請中央銀行已書面答覆宣讀完畢好請問各位委員對上次的議事錄有沒有意見好那我們就確定議事錄議事錄確定那請議事委員宣讀今天的議程"},{"start":1455.339,"end":1469.731,"text":"邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長出資中央銀行國家發展委員會經濟部率台灣電力股份有限公司董事長及台灣中油股份有限公司董事長衛生福利部法務部就中央"},{"start":1470.672,"end":1496.759,"text":"即作中東衝突對能源物價民生與醫療物資供應及市場秩序之中長期影響與因應檢討即因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安院性特別預算執行情形進行專題報告並備諮詢宣讀完畢好那我們就開始來介紹我們今天在現場的委員跟所有來參與的官員第一位吳秉瑞委員"},{"start":1500.387,"end":1520.493,"text":"第二位 林德福委員謝謝 因為我們今天的議題非常重要所以今天來練習的官員也非常多讓我一一來做介紹我們行政院主計總處的主計長 陳淑珠陳淑珠第二位 公務預算處的處長 許處長謝謝我們基金預算處的潘處長"},{"start":1527.08,"end":1539.125,"text":"歡迎您我們統計處綜合統計處的蔡處長謝謝我們會計決算處的許處長歡迎您我們央行的副總裁嚴中大嚴副總裁我們國發會的副主委高副主委歡迎您謝謝我們經濟發展處的副處長立副處長歡迎您"},{"start":1557.006,"end":1582.586,"text":"還有我們經濟部的賴長賜 歡迎您我們國營事業管理司的司長胡司長 歡迎您還有我們非常重要大家關注的能源署副署長今天也在陳副署長 謝謝 歡迎您我們綜合規劃司的許副司長 歡迎您我們產發署的陳副署長 歡迎您"},{"start":1584.571,"end":1612.642,"text":"我們國際貿易署的楊組長 歡迎您我們商業發展署的劉副署長 歡迎您我們產業技術司的周副司長 歡迎您 謝謝還有我們中小及新創企業署的戴副署長 歡迎您我們投資審議司的蘇代理司長"},{"start":1615.558,"end":1623.666,"text":"好這以上是經濟部的部分我們台電今天是總經理來參與我們今天的專案報告王總經理我們中油的董事長方董事長辛苦了方董事長還有我們衛福部的林靜怡政務次長"},{"start":1636.707,"end":1662.701,"text":"謝謝 歡迎您我們食藥署的副署長王副署長歡迎您 謝謝我們中央健保署的戴釵益歡迎您我們社家署的魏檢任視察歡迎您還有我們社會救濟司社公司的王檢任視察歡迎您還有我們法務部檢察司的張司長歡迎您 謝謝"},{"start":1664.102,"end":1688.475,"text":"好這以上是我們今天來參與列席的所有的官員以上我們等一下專案報告因為我們今天來的非常多但是有今天的議題關注的委員也非常多所以我們今天的專案報告我就邀請三位來做專案報告說明第一位是請我們陳主席長第二位是請我們"},{"start":1689.816,"end":1711.546,"text":"央行的副總裁第三位是請我們經濟部的次長賴次長那現在等一下的答詢每位委員是8分鐘必要時可以好那我們現在就開始做答詢好那我們現在先請我們主席長來做說明"},{"start":1722.601,"end":1740.717,"text":"主席、各位委員、女士、先生今天應邀到第十一屆第五會期貴委員會第七次全體委員會議就中通衝突對能源、物價、民生和醫療物資、供應和市場秩序之中長程影響"},{"start":1742.435,"end":1767.714,"text":"與因應檢調及因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及國民及民生國安任性特別預算執行請請提出專案報告自感榮幸請就本總處主管的部分提出簡要說明第一個中東衝突對物價的一個影響今年二月美伊戰爭以來三月OPEC的油價大幅上漲到116.4元"},{"start":1770.636,"end":1787.391,"text":"成長約7成增加廠商生產和物流的成本可能間次降價到終端產品提升通膨的壓力以本總署的模擬如果在其他因素不變國際油價上漲10%業者繼續完成完全轉嫁之下CPI將增加0.24個百分點"},{"start":1794.937,"end":1803.919,"text":"但是因為我們採行雅林最低價還有油價平穩的措施等採汽油雙緩漲機制減緩油價上漲對國內物價衝擊因此我們影響這是0.24是視為上限本身整個擴大油價平穩機制它有效減緩國際油價上漲對國內物價的一個衝擊所以如果持續"},{"start":1821.328,"end":1847.075,"text":"我們除了除息推行汽油酸仿藏機制之外並搭配專案的仿藏機制所以本身還有延長關鍵性5M物料的減增稅務措施擴大汽柴油的一個減增的貨物稅的減增幅度50%所以已經有希望降低國內物價所受的一個衝擊那以3月份的CPI比2月份成長的部分呢"},{"start":1850.458,"end":1861.973,"text":"6.5%僅國際油價漲幅71.4%的一個9%那所以第一季的CPI因政府擴大油價平穩機制及整體食物類價格走穩所以年增1.23%"},{"start":1863.735,"end":1887.565,"text":"低於二月份預測的1.38那我們將會後續關注後續的一個暫時的發展在五月下旬來更新更新我們新全年度的一個物價預測那第二個是中央政府因應國際強勢社會及民生民生國安任性特別預算執行情形那總經費是5,447億"},{"start":1890.746,"end":1901.25,"text":"那這個部分分配數是3042億好那到115年3月31日它執行數是2908億那佔96%那按照機關別預算的一個編列和執行數可以看後面的一個付表依內政部編列預算數112億執行15億元主要是辦理老宅延壽金融復興計劃等"},{"start":1920.131,"end":1934.285,"text":"國防部主管編列1081億執行數400億主要是辦理軍民之通作為環境韌性和設備一個效能提升的計劃等三財政部主管編列預算數2500億主要是執行數是2367億主要是辦理"},{"start":1939.91,"end":1948.413,"text":"補花現金還有一些企業貿易融資利息減息減息等那教育部補助編列預算數199億那執行數是16億元主要是辦理提升大專院校"},{"start":1955.447,"end":1970.012,"text":"效務經營補助等經濟部主管編列461億執行數65億主要是協助受美國關稅政策影響的製造業者調整體質提升產業競爭力等勞動部編列預算數250億執行數113億主要是撥補勞工保險基金然後辦理政府部門公共服務上工專案等"},{"start":1980.866,"end":1984.25,"text":"農業部主管編列19190億元執行數57億主要是強化農漁業外銷冷凍體系獎勵業者拓展美國高端外銷市場等"},{"start":1993.432,"end":2016.818,"text":"八 衛生福利部主管編列預算360億執行273億主要是撥補全體健康保險基金等九 海洋委員會主管編列預算數295億執行數1億元主要是辦理海域徵收及巡航裝備構建等那第二個我們會加速執行相關有關的計劃提升預算的一個執行績效"},{"start":2021.178,"end":2039.865,"text":"所以這個部分呢以上報告我們敬請各位委員女士先生指教祝福大家健康快樂萬事如意謝謝謝謝陳主席長做的專題報告接下來第二位邀請我們央行的副總裁嚴副總裁進行專案報告說明簡短謝謝"},{"start":2045.363,"end":2060.743,"text":"主席各位委員以下請就央行的部分提出報告那第一點我們看到受到中東戰事的干擾國際原油等大宗物產品的價格上漲全球通膨率上升的風險升溫請翻到下一頁"},{"start":2061.906,"end":2081.794,"text":"我們也列示了最近幾個國際機構均警示本次能源危機的情勢嚴峻我們要以審慎因應潛在的衝擊這邊有IEA OECD IMF和世界銀行的觀點提供大家參考第二點中東站是推升了國際原物料價格也帶動了國內進口物價走升"},{"start":2084.899,"end":2102.913,"text":"為目前我們看到輸入性通貨膨脹壓力仍屬可控今年1到3月以美元計價的進口物價年增率是4.31為受到去年同期新台幣對美元升值的影響以新台幣計價的進口物價增幅縮小為0.33輸入性通貨膨脹目前我們認為還屬可控中東戰事以來國際美元走強新台幣"},{"start":2115.206,"end":2123.052,"text":"對美元匯率趨變那央行有在外匯市場調節以穩定新台幣匯率將有助於減緩輸入性通貨膨脹下一頁"},{"start":2125.871,"end":2144.857,"text":"第三點我們要強調是政府以採取供給面的措施來緩解對國內物價的衝擊有助於減緩國內通膨壓力我們看到今年一到三月平均的CPI年增率是1.23顯示我們的目前通貨情勢仍屬溫和下一頁"},{"start":2145.757,"end":2169.027,"text":"第四點目前我們對今年的CPI年增率預測值為1.80國內通膨漲萬人數溫和不過未來若國際油價大幅度上升國內通膨漲萬上行的風險亦將升高下一頁最後是報告的結論部分本行將密切關注中東戰事相關的變化情勢適時採取妥適的貨幣政策因應謝謝"},{"start":2171.971,"end":2178.902,"text":"好 我們謝謝嚴副總裁的專題報告接下來我請第三位我們經濟部的次長賴次長"},{"start":2189.076,"end":2213.812,"text":"主席 主委委員 大家好今天承蒙委員會的邀請就本專案報告提出報告如下敬請各位委員不吝視教有關中東衝突對能源物價民生及醫療物資供應及市場秩序中長期的影響跟因應檢討首先看到能源的部分能源的供應是經濟部的重要工作而我國的能源多為進口"},{"start":2214.833,"end":2225.938,"text":"所以對氣柴油、天然氣、桶裝瓦斯、電力等我們目前採取的作為如下以氣柴油、天然氣、桶裝瓦斯的部分因應中東局勢"},{"start":2227.605,"end":2243.246,"text":"我們在今年的3月2日立即成立了能源應變小組追蹤國際油氣市場動態的變化並關注國內各項能源庫存跟使用狀況分析目前各項能源儲備均高於法規標準國內庫存充足"},{"start":2245.729,"end":2260.581,"text":"而經濟部也與國內兩大石油公司建立緊密的聯絡網全面盤點受影響的航班規劃改由鴻海出口貨至非中東地區增購現貨以補足缺口"},{"start":2261.82,"end":2290.263,"text":"那另外為穩定物價的一個政策中友已經啟動了啞鈴最低價跟專案平穩的機制力求汽柴油價格還漲同時在四月份民生用天然氣跟統裝瓦斯價格皆不調漲以照顧民生並穩定國內的物價在電力的部分經濟部也責成台電公司研擬因應方案強化機組的運轉維護合理調度跟需求面的管理"},{"start":2291.064,"end":2294.067,"text":"而為利民生物價的穩定及產業競爭力經濟部電價審議委員會已決議4月"},{"start":2299.632,"end":2321.833,"text":"的電價是不調整的那至於塑化產品的部分受美伊衝突的影響至今年的二月二十八號開始中東的情勢的升級所以引發相關國內塑化產業鏈的一個供需的平衡造成市場的一個疑慮那鑑於此種情勢我們採取幾項措施第一個"},{"start":2322.774,"end":2344.12,"text":"是擴大上中油業者的擴大生產中油公司為滿足石化下油業者對原料的緊急需求林園的第四青椰烈節廠已在3月31日提前開爐以息每月的供應量從原先的6萬公噸提升到4月的7.9萬"},{"start":2346.616,"end":2370.706,"text":"再加上台塑化4月份的產量9萬噸那4月份的總產量將達到16.9萬噸足供內需使用並優先滿足國內中下游廠商的需求至於在下游業者的擴大產量的部分經濟部推出了塑膠袋的評價專案由中游公司專案提供5000噸的評價乙烯再由台塑自產供應評價的乙烯"},{"start":2376.018,"end":2398.295,"text":"然後製造相對平價的這個塑膠袋這個專案可增加12.5億的一斤塑膠袋的一個產量快速的提供商圈跟市場的一個需求至於在通路業者的穩定供貨的部分我們已經協調了小北跟鎮宇五金通路全力的供應塑膠製品若有欠缺的狀況經濟部也會協調塑膠"},{"start":2402.038,"end":2420.815,"text":"帶的製造供應商供應並滾動式的檢討供需的狀況那除此之外經濟部也針對於1033次的市場跟350個商圈的需求緊急媒合附近的這個通路那就這個整個塑膠袋的供給"},{"start":2422.295,"end":2437.751,"text":"而促成平穩至於對於原物料供應的通報網跟缺料的這個煤核的專線的部分我們也設置了缺料的煤核專線然後以提供製造業煤核石化料源的供料服務"},{"start":2439.516,"end":2465.152,"text":"此外經濟部也透過跨部會的部分強化查處二指不法配合跨部會的物價聯合稽查小組的運作與法務部跟公平會等部會共同辦理違規稽查作業防範不法業者趁機囤積或荒台物價至於在因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國防任性特別預算的執行的狀況"},{"start":2467.06,"end":2484.585,"text":"為了協助國內產業因應美國關稅衝擊,編列了460億元相關特別預算支持產業的四項措施第一項措施是外銷貸款優惠加碼,目前中小企業每家可申請到6000萬元保證額度,保證成數達到9.5成"},{"start":2488.126,"end":2503.257,"text":"全額減免保證的手續會最長兩年到目前為止已經承保了57件承保融資的金額達到4.93億元此外對中小微企業多元發展專案貸款的這個需求提供最高3500萬的貸款額度"},{"start":2505.859,"end":2526.525,"text":"利率的上限在於2.22的百分點那其中貸款的金額在1000萬以內的那利率更是減少到1.5%那期間最長6個月到目前為止我們核貸的金額已經達到103.5億元已經核准了1153件此外第三個是促進產業的福島轉型的這個部分"},{"start":2535.779,"end":2561.395,"text":"然後提供受影響的製造業研發創新及設備汰換補助個案的補助最高500萬元產業的聯盟最高4000萬元到目前為止我們協助了787家的業者補助的金額34.3億元其中以金屬機電業最多歧視為民生化工業那最後我們在爭取海外的訂單的部分"},{"start":2563.291,"end":2575.1,"text":"單億企業補助最高500萬元兩家以上的聯合申請最高2000萬元補助的標的包括與海外設展示中心服務中心跟花貨倉庫等實體據點到目前為止我們已經協助了2750家的廠商"},{"start":2581.264,"end":2609.896,"text":"及290家工協會補助金額達到20.6億元依照行政組織總署在4月份公布的最新消費者物價指數年增率為1.23低於原來預測的1.38顯示政府實施各項平穩措施有效減緩國際油價上漲對CPI的影響以上報告敬請指教並祝各位委員身體健康萬事如意"},{"start":2612.11,"end":2635.363,"text":"好 謝謝我們經濟部的次長賴次長所做的專題報告我們現在開始答詢先做一下宣告每位初席委員發言時間8分鐘必要時的延長2分鐘每位列席委員發言時間4分鐘我們今天是上午10點截止發言登記現在請第一位林德福委員開始質詢"},{"start":2645.965,"end":2673.956,"text":"謝謝主席 議會各列席官員是不是請主席長還有國發會的高副主委還有經濟部賴長次還有中油方董事長衛福部的林次長還有食藥署王副署長以上 委員好"},{"start":2675.066,"end":2700.94,"text":"你好主席長我想我們要回顧自從COVID-19疫情爆發後全球整個供應鏈大亂一直到現在這四五年來國內的物價可以說是狂飆不管是買便當吃外食還是租房子老百姓的體感漲幅都是三到四成在跳"},{"start":2702.661,"end":2718.273,"text":"但每次看到主計總署公布的CPI整個消費者物價指數永遠都是百分之一多百分之二多左右那官員常拿著這個數據告訴大家台灣的通膨很溫和物價"},{"start":2720.535,"end":2743.125,"text":"有控制住那主席長本席了解你們是用300多項的商品去平均計算像電視機手機變便宜了剛好抵銷了便當的櫃變貴但是一般人你像五年買一次電視一天買三個便當"},{"start":2745.695,"end":2760.329,"text":"這種購買頻率它的落差讓現行的CPI數據沒有辦法反映在真實的民生痛苦上那本席想請教主計長面對這種長達數年的結構性物價上漲主計總署有沒有檢討過現行我們CPI的權重計算的方式"},{"start":2769.088,"end":2789.876,"text":"對不對 我們不能針對老百姓每天都要面對的外食 黃豬這個日用品 獨立拉出來做一個高價 高頻度的購買民生物價指數誠實來面對通貧 而不是用那種冷冰冰的平均數字來粉飾太平來 那個主席長你有什麼看法"},{"start":2790.296,"end":2807.379,"text":"是我跟委員報告一下我們每一年都會在變更那個全種就是所謂的譬如說如果是外食會偏種我們就要再調的話是這樣那今年的話因為水果水果和"},{"start":2807.939,"end":2809.58,"text":"那些蛋類等價格它回穩了所以我們3月的時候就會平穩那整個去年來講其實算平穩因為去年有一些的是因為豬肉的部分或者是蛋價外食會其實是2點多到3點"},{"start":2824.748,"end":2827.03,"text":"我們也有針對17項重要民生的物價做一個整個公佈那17項重要民生的一個物價目前譬如說針對"},{"start":2855.612,"end":2875.292,"text":"一至三月其實狀況也還好差不多2.48也並沒有說非常的高這跟其他各國比較起來也是我是希望你們把這個整個三餐需要用的日常用的黃豬、外食、利用品等等獨立一個"},{"start":2876.773,"end":2894.62,"text":"對 要單獨列出來你不要用300多項平均把它拉下去所以物價各方面都很溫和實際上落差是很大那是每天感受到的是 權重要改我們也會是每一年都會檢討我希望你能夠改出來讓我們了解好不好"},{"start":2896.421,"end":2915.761,"text":"根據衛福部統計去年健保幾戶藥會高達2536億元由於整個社會高齡化高血壓、高血糖、高血脂這三高的藥物民眾使用量最多排名第一為糖尿病用藥高達6.5億錠"},{"start":2918.323,"end":2943.392,"text":"那我請問衛福部針對民眾常使用接觸的三高藥品目前是我有受中東戰爭或是美國關稅影響有斷貨的風險目前沒有目前沒有因為有藥師認為受到美國關稅影響最快六月台灣會出現缺藥潮報告委員那個美國的藥品關稅是指進口美國的那台灣這邊台灣這邊進口美國的進來我們沒有打他關稅"},{"start":2946.693,"end":2969.563,"text":"出口去美國的那邊我們現在學名藥在這次是豁免一年的所以說像這個你們要去注意這個事情因為這次用特別藥做來藝助我們借這個機會說明就是其實我們台灣從國外從美國進來的藥我們沒有打關稅所以不會影響價格不會影響特別藝助這個健保200億元適合全數用於藥品補貼以利爭取藥品供應鏈的穩定不要讓它斷鏈"},{"start":2975.345,"end":3001.063,"text":"有沒有就剛剛委員報告這個東西就準備在那裡那當然現在因為就是中東戰爭的關係那塑膠類製品它影響我們包含一些藥品的包材或者是這個衣材那這個部分我們已經跟經濟部協作那也請經濟部產發署目前已經協助了20家廠商在能夠拿到原料那目前在價格的部分我們還在評估那如果真的有明顯的成本上漲那這200億我們可以拿來因應好"},{"start":3002.944,"end":3025.66,"text":"我是希望這點要注意好你回去那現行中油活動油價公視採七成杜拜三成布蘭特計算但中東戰爭爆發後中油原油來源整個結構出現變化來自美國比重達六成那中東戰比降至四成以下外界質疑現行"},{"start":3026.861,"end":3038.242,"text":"中油的公司不能反映實際的狀況應重新檢討那我請問經濟部跟中油油價公司研究標案交由哪一個智庫來研究"},{"start":3041.104,"end":3059.666,"text":"謝謝委員的指導不論是杜拜的油價杜拜的油價是國際間對於東亞市場最主要的一個定價的機制布蘭特更是全球最重要的一個定價的機制剛剛委員所說的一個狀況隨著這個戰事的一個發展油價的部分的起伏相當的高"},{"start":3060.186,"end":3079.549,"text":"甚至還有布蘭特原油比杜拜的原油價格還更高的一個狀況即便我們從美國進口的這個原油它的報價的系統也是針對東亞的報價的系統至於油價公司的這個檢討的部分終於已經承諾在半年內來完成相關的這個檢討太久了吧 半年內"},{"start":3080.47,"end":3091.198,"text":"本期希望早一點能夠看到研究報告半年真的太久了油價公視研究報告因隨同中油撥補預算一併提出同時在立法院來討論請問賴次長有沒有辦法"},{"start":3095.441,"end":3120.99,"text":"感謝委員來支持未來中油的一個撥補的預算那我們的油價是全亞洲鄰近國家最低的那目前為止95千汽油是33.9塊我們看到南韓的這個5000汽油的這個價格甚至高達51.4塊那基本上對於穩定的物價我們針對於亞林最低價還有專案平穩的機制持續的在執行之中謝謝委員"},{"start":3122.611,"end":3150.274,"text":"重視中東戰爭帶來各種的危機引發原物料斷鏈那民眾生活受到衝擊在國內掀起塑膠之亂以醫療這個物資繃緊突然凸顯整個台灣石化產業在關鍵時刻的重要性那石化產業是基礎型的產業廣泛應用在國人食衣住行育樂等這些這個居家在生活中帶"},{"start":3151.735,"end":3180.134,"text":"帶動大量下游關聯的產業的發展以及就業的需求在節能減碳降低污染的前提下秉席是希望經濟部跟國發會應該藉由這個經濟部跟國發會應該藉由此次的危機要好好的盤點來支持石化產業發展的政策以促成石化業高值化的轉型讓石化業跟流台灣"},{"start":3181.476,"end":3182.859,"text":"達產業永續發展的環境永續的雙贏的一個境界"},{"start":3188.991,"end":3215.443,"text":"那個賴市長委員質詢的這個方向也就是我們現在在推動的因為石化產業對於我們國內是有一個剛性需求那針對於石化產業的這個生產的部分比如說以短期內我們看到的這個波動的情況其實中油公司也在3月31號提前的開爐試清然後提供國內平價的這個石化的原物料那委員的指導我們會持續的來進行"},{"start":3218.024,"end":3234.623,"text":"像那個中東戰爭影響整個國內尤其是力軍的供應不穩影響交通安全與公共工程的運作延宕施工的期程那媒體報導台灣基礎建設道路工程主要的原料像力軍嚴重的缺貨價格飆漲"},{"start":3236.465,"end":3252.647,"text":"六都都有工程受到影響那我請問經濟部對於國內整個濾清穩定供應有哪些措施那哪些類型的公共工程會優先來供應第一個針對於濾清的生產所需要的上游端的物料"},{"start":3253.228,"end":3278.893,"text":"的一個進口的部分我們從3月2號開始成立的能源因應小組無論是中油公司跟台塑公司進口的這個相關的這個原料我們都有掌握這第一個那第二個部分的話國內的力清以中油公司為例的話他大概有2.2萬噸那台塑石化大概有4.5萬噸那以中油公司定廠的一個pull forward的一個狀況穩定到6月是沒有問題的"},{"start":3279.693,"end":3305.286,"text":"而中和公司也持續的透過產線的一個正常的運轉來提供國內所需要的公共建設材料因為你看雙北市民也擔心專用一些垃圾袋會因為這個塑膠之亂而買不到新北市環保局以對外說明專用垃圾袋雙北互通使用整體生產供應無虞不因成本波動而漲價"},{"start":3306.767,"end":3321.802,"text":"而且有三個月的庫存量民眾不必恐慌那本是希望說經濟部能夠主動協助新北市與台北市確保原料供應無虞一律廠商生產專用垃圾袋民眾不用煩惱買不到專用的垃圾袋"},{"start":3323.584,"end":3337.129,"text":"有沒有辦法這個沒有問題除了新北市台北市之外我們針對於全國一千多家的市場跟兩百多家的商圈每天都有群組跟電話來去進行相關資料的一個對齊好"},{"start":3338.749,"end":3362.345,"text":"那我最後一個議題是針對塑膠原料或製品尤其是華務部應該召開跨部會物價聯合計查小組啟動調查是否有異常囤積或聯合漲價等等不過今年因為是逢選舉年選舉小物花放很多塑膠製品為了年底選舉廠商會提早準備塑膠原料"},{"start":3362.785,"end":3384.013,"text":"以因應候選人訂單的需求本席提醒華務部華務部雖然沒有上來但提醒華務部不要抓錯對象造成選舉節外生枝我想也提醒我們各位官員 謝謝好 謝謝其他部分就用書面來回應接下來第二位邀請吳秉瑞委員"},{"start":3393.7,"end":3397.843,"text":"主席麻煩請經濟部賴次長請賴次長委員好次長早這個關於塑膠袋因為在我的選區新莊有認識一些塑膠袋的製造的工廠認識一些朋友我就有請教他們說為什麼會缺塑膠袋"},{"start":3424.469,"end":3450.254,"text":"當然這是一部分人的意見他說因為那個原料從過年到現在漲了三次那這個塑膠工廠他們平常就是專門在做這個塑膠袋的他就是隱隱的感覺就是那上游原料從過年到現在漲了三次他隱隱的感覺就是說這個就是要漲價所以"},{"start":3452.113,"end":3479.445,"text":"我如果以我個人來跟他講說那如果有商家說缺塑膠袋啊可不可以直接跟他買當然他礙於交情的關係他也是會賣但是問題是其實他工廠生產是大量你個別的商家需要的量對他來講是微不足道的那我就是從這個地方要請教一個問題因為台灣的親友列姐只有中油跟台塑化兩家"},{"start":3482.232,"end":3494.515,"text":"這個從經濟學的觀點來講 這個叫寡占那這個寡占喔 尤其我們看到油價油價這兩家的這個關聯關係喔 雖然他們都講說沒有聯合壟斷但是他們之間的關聯是非常的強這國務委員每天都在看 都看得出來那這個中間"},{"start":3503.354,"end":3514.464,"text":"是不是有可能利用這樣子的機會肌肉行銷啊 減少產量然後就去拉抬這個把這個價格給抬高呢你覺得有沒有這樣的可能性"},{"start":3516.125,"end":3545.337,"text":"這個部分為了穩定的物價行政院已經成立了物價的小組每週開會剛剛委員所說到的一個狀況是法務部包括各地的檢察司、廉政署、調查局都會有相關的稽查小組來稽查這個現象是否是屬實若是有屬實的話他們會依法處置那以經濟部的立場的話我們除了在穩定上游的物料的進口之外"},{"start":3545.937,"end":3565.409,"text":"對於中油的產銷,包括你剛剛講的塑膠粒的這個部分因為中油本來這個世青的這個廠沒有這麼早要開所以他3月31號就先開爐了那開爐的話,他會多一個生產,比如以稀為例的話其實一個月的一個需要量,我們的需要量"},{"start":3566.309,"end":3592.377,"text":"是遠小於我們的供給量那為什麼會有現在的一個剛剛委員所提到的大家有一個恐慌的心理我們也希望說消費者這邊不要因為有預期的心理那因為當然我們會努力在新聞報導上面都有說明都足夠的但是我跟你講這個因為台灣他的市場本身市場的維納量是小那之前"},{"start":3593.317,"end":3614.909,"text":"中國可以用很多非法的方法去取得一些原油啦譬如說他偷買伊朗的原油被美國制裁的啊俄羅斯的原油啊所以他的油價很低他在原來弄了一大堆的石化產業打到台灣中國本身就內捲所以全世界的這個塑膠的原料幾乎都被中國打趴嘛"},{"start":3615.689,"end":3632.847,"text":"那所以導致台灣的這個青油裂解之後所衍生的生產品它的生產意願因為我走得了緊啊所以它生產意願也不高那另外一點是人的心裡利用這個中東美伊的這個衝突"},{"start":3636.17,"end":3659.35,"text":"然後這個河母之海峽的封鎖 造成國際遊記要飆漲他利用這樣的危機 他自己本身也在要探這個機會探指我個人是覺得說 難免會給人家這樣的猜測因為台塑這個集團 過去一段時間是很賺錢但是去年前年是不太好"},{"start":3661.582,"end":3677.207,"text":"確實如委員所說,因為中國近幾年的經濟動能不足以石化業為例,不但是內捲還外捲造成很多國家長期依賴中國的進口,但戰前就有這種狀況"},{"start":3679.728,"end":3696.481,"text":"對於說石化業的未來的加值化甚至是說剛性需求的自我滿足的部分終有演繹的包括新世青的一個改建的建設的一個計畫就是希望說這些基本物資所需要的我們國家必須要有一個足夠的韌性"},{"start":3698.046,"end":3718.061,"text":"對 那問題是很可能為了要供給國內需求 中油被這個包袱很可能他甚至要虧本 也要生產因為如果從國際的這個物資生產這些原料的生產 搞不好現在國際的價格就比你這個生產的價格還要低啊"},{"start":3718.982,"end":3722.488,"text":"會有這樣的風險問題是我們台灣的國會又很不友善對於台電對於中油該撥補該要給你們的他們都不給啊"},{"start":3729.209,"end":3753.002,"text":"那怎麼辦咧?要拖垮台電跟拖垮中油嗎?其實台電跟中油是為了要抑制國內的通貨膨脹為全國人民背起這一個十字架,不是嗎?國營事業要服務全國的民眾,這是理所當然但是因為中油的一個狀況因為最近的中東的情勢的發展過去的虧損包括以"},{"start":3756.075,"end":3771.38,"text":"汽油為例的話到目前為止吸收了107.3億元而我國的這個汽油到目前為止是33.9塊我剛剛在報告裡面已經談到了韓國、日本甚至中國、香港"},{"start":3771.98,"end":3796.51,"text":"它的油價都遠遠高於我們的國家所以針對於外界有討論到甚至我們部長也有在立法院你說的都是事實啦但是問題是一般在外面的這個市場上面一般的消費者感受不到因為一般的消費者他沒有辦法去比較台灣的油價跟日本的油價台灣的油價跟韓國的油價台灣的油價跟中國的油價"},{"start":3797.83,"end":3809.348,"text":"你講了然後就有人反宣傳說台灣就民不聊生百惡非長所有人都活不下去他就是惡性宣傳這裡面就是包含了很多的說法是包含了政治的動機在誤導不然的話"},{"start":3812.764,"end":3836.765,"text":"請問這一個動漲那當然政府也有幫忙在貨物稅的部分也減了不少那但是這個動漲最重要的目的就是不要讓台灣通貨膨脹那這個付出的代價當然政府要承擔所以政府也願意編預算撥補甚至也願意給你們增資結果在野黨說因為我們國會人多就是不給你過啊不然你是要怎樣"},{"start":3838.061,"end":3846.192,"text":"他只是要逼你 你剛剛那個報告我看了很怕他這樣逼 你10月電價要漲我跟你講10月要漲電價你敢嗎?10月28號要投票"},{"start":3852.468,"end":3875.21,"text":"國營事業對民生非常有重要性所以剛剛委員所提到的問題不管是國營事業的一個事業預算甚至是我們公務機關的年度預算對於我們國家的經濟的發展都是非常的重要我們也藉此機會期待大院諸位委員來支持我們行政院包括經濟部所提的各項的一個預算"},{"start":3876.511,"end":3892.91,"text":"我們當然願意支持我現在是問你說萬一在野黨不支持還是不能過那你們中友跟台電還有經濟部會打算如何因應你們有沒有什麼想法要怎麼因應可不可以講出一個讓人家這個可以眼睛一亮的這個東西"},{"start":3894.715,"end":3922.431,"text":"國際油價上漲的真的是非常的高那中油跟中油目前所吸收的國際油價的一個上漲無論是在包括是石油的部分或是天然氣的部分市長我的問題是市長你聽清楚我的問題我很了解我也很願意支持我向來都支持都非常支持因為這個是為全民的付出那我是說如果本願"},{"start":3923.82,"end":3942.634,"text":"高高在上 它不給你撥補 它不給你增資那經濟部對於中油跟台電的未來有什麼想法基本上我們先從補考專案貸款 包括官委專案貸款問題是你的負債比如果拿到銀行去能看嗎負債比都快要100%了"},{"start":3945.29,"end":3957.225,"text":"終有過去的一個性平因為在公司的治理之下有很好的性平那錯過這個專案的最好的性平是很多營養會以為是國營事業說後面有政府在撐腰了"},{"start":3958.154,"end":3977.752,"text":"那當然因為中油是對於我們國家如此重要而且中油也是百分之百由經濟部持有股份的一個公司所以我們對於中油理所當然也是支持的我知道那我現在跟你說我有兩個事情想要拜託你第一個要跟台電跟中油的員工加油打氣"},{"start":3980.034,"end":3987.3,"text":"這個狀況不是他們造成的他們都很努力認真的在自己的工作崗位上是為全國人民背這個包袱"},{"start":3989.525,"end":4017.181,"text":"所以這個說真的應該對台電跟中油的員工感覺到要鼓舞他們的士氣不要因為這樣說人家又說中油台電這個國營事業怎麼樣子這樣好不好這是第一個第二個技術要再精進這個世界現在這個時代你要技術精進才能夠超越才能夠繼續有領先競爭所以中油在提煉的方面在列解"},{"start":4018.522,"end":4033.281,"text":"這個技術 化學的體驗技術如果能夠再提升那是跟別的產業 將來甚至可以對付我們電子業需要的這些非常精密的化學品能不能有這個產制 從另外一方面可以獲得利潤"},{"start":4035.563,"end":4059.736,"text":"謝謝委員指導我上個禮拜已經到工會去表達經濟部對於中油工會員工的投入的一個感謝那除此之外的話其實中油公司這幾年不管是低流、原油、高流、聯油的參配包括煉成綠的部分都有如委員所說的一直在精進之中我們也非常感謝所有公司及員工的一個付出"},{"start":4060.296,"end":4069.861,"text":"好 謝謝 請為中華民國 為台灣繼續加油謝謝好 謝謝吳秉瑞委員的發言接下來我請第三位賴世保委員謝謝主席以及各位先進有請經濟部的賴次長以及中友的董事長"},{"start":4090.555,"end":4091.576,"text":"兩位長官委員好兩位長官好我先問一下中油董事長我記得在經濟委員會有問你你講到說有四艘的郵輪、中船下裝了沒有"},{"start":4113.395,"end":4140.199,"text":"我在經委會所講就是說從四月份開始裝了沒有 開始裝了沒有四月份這一船已經裝了裝了 出來沒有現在在航行從曼德海峽過程中已經經過那個地方曼德海峽是不是從央部裝港了 從央部裝港然後已經往曼德海峽那第一艘什麼時候到台灣"},{"start":4141.935,"end":4164.346,"text":"應該是在五月初了五月初後面的三艘呢後面三艘就每個月一艘我不會受影響目前來講沒有影響伊朗不是炸因為你現在是荷姆斯在東邊這邊嘛對不對這邊曼德正在西邊這邊中間是沙烏地嘛對不對他買一個油管伊朗不是炸他油管沒有影響"},{"start":4165.236,"end":4194.12,"text":"目前他是有炸到他的加壓泡泡加壓泡泡就影響了啊那現在已經修復了修復了齁好我現在就問了這個川普因為這個美伊的談判不順利他要封鎖荷姆斯海峽這個現在看起來四十天大家都講說那個那個預備料四十天不足啊亞洲三個國家搶貨啊日本韓國跟我們呢我們搶到多少啊這個要不要解釋一下"},{"start":4194.954,"end":4221.687,"text":"這個部分從中東戰事開始以來經濟部每天開會不管是原油、氫油或是天然氣我們當時採用的策略是假設這個赫姆斯海峽完全封閉然後我們從其他的這個現貨市場跟非中東地區的油氣源裡面來調度目前都非常的正常比如說這兩天也有這個天然氣的一個靠港跟原油這個貨輪一個"},{"start":4226.35,"end":4235.334,"text":"從歐洲還有包括未來我們從美國不是有很多 去很多不跟美國都沒有一點我們這個都有美國增加多少"},{"start":4238.318,"end":4263.698,"text":"所有的因為美國的油大概是屬於低流的這個原油啦那我們大概是因為我們的石油的生產必須要高流的原油跟低流的原油來參配所以針對於低流的原油的部分我們自然就是從美國來進口美國現在照我們的進口比例多少現在6060%喔對啊可不可以再增加"},{"start":4265.391,"end":4284.702,"text":"這個要看 我們都有相關的排程 包括煉廠的一個煉量的狀況它是什麼 你看低還是高是什麼意思 低是輕石油還是重石油是不是 對所以它的美國油不是用在每一個地方 它是有侷限性的"},{"start":4285.353,"end":4314.275,"text":"他看各界的這個油氣源的一個不一樣需要做一個調查中油公司針對於全世界大概一百四十幾個有產油的這個地方他相關的這個原料的一個狀況包括他油品的一個狀況都有作為掌握那也感謝中油公司平常就是把這些基本功練好所以我們當遇到中東的戰事的時候我們很快的可以"},{"start":4314.895,"end":4318.998,"text":"國際油價漲了8%啦這個經濟破損中的這邊是不是就繼續一直動漲不管漲多少 8% 18% 28% 我們都動漲是不是繼續動漲我每週都有固定的一個機制我問你是不是繼續動漲"},{"start":4338.496,"end":4366.283,"text":"我們現在看即時的油價的變化現在是賣房市場喔現在是大家不管不計成本 不計價格搶到貨才是硬道理喔全世界都這樣子喔無論是石油或是天然氣我們針對於未來數個月的所有的貨源都有掌握甚至是七月 八月 九月我們對現貨的部分都有掌握"},{"start":4368.6,"end":4384.352,"text":"現在因為美伊談判促交看起來油價要繼續漲我就問你一個問題是不是我們的政策不管它漲多少我們就繼續動漲我就問你 YES NO 就這樣我們每個禮拜檢討 每個月來檢討因為這個油氣的價格變動得非常的劇烈"},{"start":4394.12,"end":4421.559,"text":"這個話我做全給你不敢接喔你應該說越是我們就繼續動長啊怎麼會對不對 按老百姓的心啊不然現在物價美國CPI已經漲了3.3%了你現在台灣壓得這麼低感謝先生有相當多的一個鋪排包括物價的一個穩定到目前為止的話我們不像你剛剛所說的其他的國家有這麼大的一個物價一個波動"},{"start":4425.819,"end":4438.696,"text":"我去旁邊的便利商店買那個飲料都漲了10%這個東西就很奇怪現在跟塑膠有關的都漲我看喔 請問石油存量到底是多少石油存量"},{"start":4440.314,"end":4461.163,"text":"10有存量的話我們目前都超過了法定的安全存量甚至有超過10有幾天啊?10有幾天?120天要法定的部分大概是90天90天我們超過我們都有超過天然氣咧?天然氣的話是11天11天我們超過從開戰以來每天都超過何必什麼時候可以啟動?"},{"start":4462.901,"end":4477.134,"text":"去年11月27號台電公司提出了這個自主現況安全評估的部分經濟部已經核定了台電的一個現況的評估的作業台電公司在河山廠的一個再運轉計畫在今年的3月27號提出來明年可以嗎?2027可以嗎?"},{"start":4488.864,"end":4500.419,"text":"這個台電公司是一個電業的發言機關他提出了在用的總經理講一下嘛要需要核安會的審查我依照核安會的審查現在已經在審查了啦總經理你也不講一下"},{"start":4502.484,"end":4523.102,"text":"報告委員那因為最樂觀啦 什麼時候可以重啟 最樂觀台電有一些東西是台電可能決定的啦就是在運轉計畫什麼時候送我們可以決定送了沒有我們已經送了合三的已經送了他們合安大概多久時間可以正常完畢這個就是要看合安會的委員正常過去多久時間"},{"start":4524.658,"end":4547.417,"text":"這個我們沒辦法有啊怎麼沒有過去就半年到一年半了怎麼沒有呢我們也希望他們快一點但是這不是我們能決定的所以只要一年再一年所以你會送了嘛再一年那就是明年可以啦就這個意思啊會盡快啦我想核安會會盡快回過來我還是問市長啊還有那個總董事長三月份總共你補貼了多少補貼多少錢"},{"start":4552.396,"end":4578.466,"text":"到3月份的部分油價的部分大概是吸收了90億左右90億如果4月份繼續這樣子再90億是每個月補貸90億一直到10月是不是這個意思我們現在會依照油價的公式看到目前為止累積的總有吸收了107.3億是關於油品的部分請教那個央行的副總裁好不好"},{"start":4580.054,"end":4580.875,"text":"現在每一談判不順利這個數字要不要修正"},{"start":4601.386,"end":4606.936,"text":"我們講的85塊是全年的均價未來一定都100多如果未來的均價到100的時候我們當然會上修我們CPI的預測值"},{"start":4614.989,"end":4641.256,"text":"依然要用比特幣計算荷姆治海峽的通行費過去央行一直對加密貨幣比特幣之類都是持之以比瞧不起所以認為它不是法定貨幣等等的可是現在越來越多的國家它這個要加密貨幣你們看要不要改變一下 央行"},{"start":4642.588,"end":4659.657,"text":"那個報告委員因為我們在那個虛擬資產服務法裡面我們對穩定幣我們是持正面的看法未來如果台灣發行這種不管新台幣或者是美元的穩定幣我們是持正面的看法所以你們瞧不起比特幣瞧不起以太幣瞧得起穩定幣就這個意思是不是"},{"start":4662.839,"end":4670.927,"text":"因為那個不是所謂的真正的貨幣有具有貨幣的那個功能的啊 穩定幣是貨幣的代幣穩定幣是一個代幣比較廣的代幣啊 加密貨幣其實也是啊"},{"start":4676.529,"end":4691.555,"text":"我們來看我們的挖掘存底已經減少了86億美金現在美國要對我們301這個看起來匯率應該走深可以減少301的對我們衝擊而且購入成本也降低這種狀況對不對"},{"start":4694.257,"end":4718.817,"text":"報告委員因為匯率走勢不是台灣自己決定的因為我們只是維持匯率的穩定匯率走勢也要看國際美元整個走勢和整個國內外經濟情勢的變化最後一個我請教主席長我覺得一個小題主席長這個一定要因為前面有人問了我還是要問一下這個到底你們今天怎麼看CPI GDP怎麼看"},{"start":4721.698,"end":4748.285,"text":"因為一到三月呢其實三月它的影響是比較小所以我們三月的CPI是1.2整個GDP的影響因為也是第一季其實是整個狀況是不錯的到三月底嘛所以今年還是有時間到了今年渴望有七所以我們要看四月我們五月會重新做評估然後會有新的一個評估的數據出來總預算後天要協商嗎"},{"start":4750.385,"end":4765.937,"text":"你要不要承諾在這裡承諾不過我跟妳承諾我都不願意院長打槍啊可不可以說我們省然後這個有關你軍人加薪案的部分我辦最佳預算可以嗎不是因為軍人加薪案涉及到制度的問題"},{"start":4766.718,"end":4786.048,"text":"他沒有說我從基層一次加三萬這樣子整個打破整個制度是整個迫害制度所以這不是我錢不錢的問題而是整個制度的問題所以必須在人事總署他這裡他做整個一個盤算去做一個改變所以你跟我講沒有用這不是我不要編的問題"},{"start":4787.509,"end":4789.111,"text":"我跟妳說這個東西後天協商要各讓一步 這個要讓啦我們很想讓啊 但是這個是很讓齊啊我們都希望總預算能夠順利來審查"},{"start":4802.526,"end":4817.263,"text":"承諾說未來可以追加預算 按照去年的做法 這樣子就有順利啦不是 賴委員 因為您也是這方面行家所以到底是追加 怎麼追加 這是重點追加就3%就可以追加啦 3%就3百億啦3%就3百億啦所以你如果說"},{"start":4821.808,"end":4849.11,"text":"統一加三萬我跟你講以後所有人人事制度全部垮了不會啦這個立法院三組總統我真的是全部垮了以後不要你光是說軍人的部分其他的公務人員的人事組全部垮了不會人事總處的人事長但是我是主計長我必須要為這個制度整個的維持啊所以立法院通過了法案就你這環境是總統派院長的思維嗎就變成你們變成太上皇"},{"start":4850.17,"end":4875.337,"text":"民主國家就是依法行政 三讀通過的法律 你照做 結果你們現在就是不可以執行卻有困難有困難事件 你可以提這個啊 你可以提復議啊復議題啦不夠啊 不夠啊 不過你就照做啊 就變成這樣好啦 今天沒時間你插插在那裡謝謝 謝謝浩天要有誠意就大家各讓一點啦不是跟你講這可以讓啦"},{"start":4877.332,"end":4884.137,"text":"好 那主席長的禮拜三好好來做後續的協商謝謝我們賴市保委員的質詢接下來請郭國文委員謝謝主席有請主席長跟我們經濟部我們的資格次長賴市長"},{"start":4905.999,"end":4917.873,"text":"主席我想CPI的穩定非常重要但是CPI的穩定現階段幾乎都是政府方的責任去對抗市場方政府可以做的部分就是油跟電還有一些稅收的減免"},{"start":4920.936,"end":4937.924,"text":"可是這個部分我們看到目前中油的這個部分剛剛報告說已經有90億最高大概107億讓整個CPI只有上升到1.8%吸收掉0.3我有一個問題要問的是說那油的部分那電的部分限制"},{"start":4938.564,"end":4957.225,"text":"那個限動的部分4到9個月次長也在這邊你也可以問他再加上其他的這個稅收的減免整個優惠的這個部分穩定物價的措施延遲到9個月的情況底下到底政府要付出多少錢才能減免多少CPI主計長你有沒有掌握"},{"start":4959.714,"end":4970.068,"text":"這個部分主要其實是經濟部的油電的部分一部分是經濟部油電的部分一部分是那個財政部稅收的減少對 財政部減少稅收嘛黃曉玉的部分這個部還沒有預估出來沒有 我是說那個 主席長"},{"start":4975.054,"end":4989.915,"text":"您站在主席兩個高位嘛那個經濟部也好財政部也好任何部門的一個政治那個行政措施減少了一些國家的一個income然後或者呢增加了國家的負擔總共多少才能去面對這個CPI本席想要知道這個數字啊"},{"start":4991.196,"end":5011.278,"text":"我們現在是講譬如說中油提出要增資那是事後那是拯救中油的部分增資融資6500億要如何救中油我都同意我也都贊成也應該包括台電都應要但是我們要去面對我們到底多少才會有效"},{"start":5012.879,"end":5039.448,"text":"在總量上啦沒關係 主席長妳會後再給本席妳算個數字給我對 經濟部還有財政部的部分還有財政部的部分因為關鍵是CPI就是整體的部會當中我們到底付了多少承擔了多少最後減少了多少因為我找不到這個相關數字嘛這樣也可以讓我們的百姓知道說政府到底付出了多少努力嘛不是嗎 主席長"},{"start":5040.788,"end":5068.553,"text":"她如果每個月的話油價的部分是九十億嘛對剛剛有講九十億我有聽到12個月那就是九十億要這樣子的一個成熟那我要知道你一個月的週期大概多少兩個月如果是這樣子但是有可能再疊加這樣子所以我們會再算一個那個就請那個次長麻煩跟主席長對一下好不好我大概要知道這個總額啦那政府有多少作為好不好那各位請回接下來我想請那個法務部法務部"},{"start":5073.831,"end":5073.932,"text":"請張師長有請 這是張師長"},{"start":5085.894,"end":5105.041,"text":"因為不論是這個之前的這個衛生紙之亂雞蛋之亂還有這個塑膠袋之亂政府部門大概透過兩個平台一個是法務部的這個物價聯合稽查小組另外呢就是我們地檢署設立一個打擊民生的這個犯罪聯繫平台用雙軌並行的方式去處理"},{"start":5106.261,"end":5125.064,"text":"那現階段 不論是衛生紙 雞蛋 或者塑膠之亂目前我看到的都是 茶無不法啦就是簡單的講說 沒有囤積 沒有烘台但是 沒有人相信啦因為在第一線當中呢大家拿到的塑膠袋都已經變五塊錢了那到底是誰在烘台價格"},{"start":5126.496,"end":5136.547,"text":"很奇怪你們每一個查出來都是沒有囤積沒有烘台但是結果就是沒有人相信因為現實上很多民眾就說你看塑膠袋五塊"},{"start":5137.625,"end":5162.531,"text":"那個整個這一個便當盒也五塊為什麼這種落差你們就去了解我去了解一下就制度面的部分囤積民生物資烘台物價的行者主要根據刑法第251條可以處三年以下有期徒刑可是從109年2010年修法以來我沒有看到任何一件案件涉及到251條"},{"start":5165.868,"end":5186.158,"text":"251條當中也就是說依糧食農產品及民生必需之飲食用品或者是3行政院公告之生活必需品你認為這三項是都不符合嗎還是出在哪裡或者是第一線的攤商的問題還是只是消費者的問題你要講清楚嘛"},{"start":5187.779,"end":5197.65,"text":"跟委員報告喔有關那個刑法251條的那個案件數齁在去年114年度我們新收是有246件 增結234件那其中起訴的有47件幾件47件47件 對起訴之後呢"},{"start":5205.779,"end":5223.152,"text":"起訴之後當然就是送法院去判決那有沒有判決那判決的情形我目前這邊手上是沒有資料如果委員有需要的話我們可以會合麻煩一下好不好起訴之後47件到底判決的結果怎麼樣這樣才能達到嚇阻的作用嘛是感受上司說好像都沒有都沒有都沒有"},{"start":5224.152,"end":5241.198,"text":"結果大家的感受都是有有有民間跟這個落差實在太大了麻煩你會後給本席一下可以那也請各位單位加強茶器讓民眾的感受能夠跟政府方相同謝謝接下來我想請那個央行的這個副總裁央行副總裁"},{"start":5248.994,"end":5272.14,"text":"委員好副總裁好副總裁因為最近外匯現在有一個新的狀況過往我們都希望外資如果賣了股之後如果不再買進的話要趕快匯出以前央行的態度這樣子就是避免這個炒匯可是最近徵期局有對外講說因為外資賣超不一定要急著匯進出"},{"start":5273.74,"end":5291.802,"text":"如果說呢這個匯進出的話台幣呢會有這個貶值的壓力那台幣一旦貶值的壓力的話就會有導入這個輸入性的通膨的這個可能那這裡頭出現第一個問題你要如何避免這個輸入性的通膨的可能"},{"start":5292.463,"end":5308.248,"text":"第二個呢可是我們現在外資持有台灣的股票債券跟現金目前已經高達1.2兆的美元又是我們外匯存底的兩倍以上你太多的外資放在台灣又有可能有炒匯的風險"},{"start":5309.568,"end":5325.856,"text":"或者一下子快速的匯出也會造成台幣的急速貶值在這種兩難的情況底下我很想問一下央行要怎麼面對譬如講還有一個問題儘管會在外資的這個部分談到外資大賣台股8306億可是到央行就變9682億差了1000多"},{"start":5334.821,"end":5360.767,"text":"另外金管會統計外資的匯出是30.5億可是央行的統計是240億差更多這種數字上的落差也會影響到你們判斷的一個結果副總裁你們回復一下本席你要怎麼去控制這個輸出性的通膨增加或者你要如何同時因應這個可能會造成炒匯的風險"},{"start":5363.242,"end":5382.624,"text":"我們會首先看一下就是到底那個以美元計價的進口物價的上漲情形我們會判斷就是說到底他是不是持續長期的但是中央銀行的匯率政策我剛才講到除了外資之外我們也受到外資也當然也受到"},{"start":5383.685,"end":5412.035,"text":"國際美元走勢外資他們判斷說到底未來的台幣的走勢是怎樣所以我們的基本政策是維持新台幣的相對穩定您剛才提到那個金管會和央行在外資匯出的統計上面是有差異的因為我們是用現金基礎那金管會是用權責基礎最大的差異就是我們外資在台灣賺到的盈餘我們我們視為它匯出定義上不同啦所有數字上的差異啦好"},{"start":5413.135,"end":5435.216,"text":"那這個可能會有判斷狀的落差不會 因為對央行來講我們看的是現金技術好 就是央行來做主導如果央行來做主導的話那本席就要請教於你了第一個現階段是不是有沒有說希望外資不要像以前短期的情侶賣掉股票以後趕快發出去而可以允許他們比較長的時間我先問你這一點好了"},{"start":5435.716,"end":5453.748,"text":"報告委員這個是有他的困難度因為外資的資金的流動在台灣是一個自由的我們只是限制他你賣完的錢你如果留在台灣你就必須投資在國內股市上面但是就是停留的時間也不管就沒有像以前說叫他趕快出去"},{"start":5454.388,"end":5469.524,"text":"我們沒辦法單向單向一下子要他暫緩出去一下子要他暫緩進來暫緩進來你是用單向讓他不要太近賄賂我們沒辦法用單向的方式因為"},{"start":5470.305,"end":5487.225,"text":"那個資金的流動是相對自由的匯出跟匯入的問題嘛你要匯出太多的話它就會貶值嘛對不對我們有道德說服國內的廠商可以這樣配合輸入性的CPI的可能性嘛那你不管輸入性的CPI嗎你不是就在可控的範圍嗎這不是變一個關鍵嗎"},{"start":5491.53,"end":5505.185,"text":"因為在在外匯市場上面我們沒辦法用單獨的去限制外資的我沒有說用單獨的方式我是說這政策有沒有調整啊我想唯一的方式可能就是透過我們匯率的調整去誘導這樣子的一個"},{"start":5507.087,"end":5531.103,"text":"說到匯率的調整本席就最後再問你一期匯率的調整的部分我一直發現央行在這個部分是在一個區間來去看待區間的部分就是30 31 32它其實是要如何維持出口的競爭力有時候主要輸出國家進口國的一個競爭力之外另外一個討論的部分是現階段需要避免輸入性的通膨應該是這兩個部分在做平衡"},{"start":5531.903,"end":5555.97,"text":"才會決定這個區間嘛出口競爭力一向不是我們關切的最主要的重點是那我們看的是整體對物價的影響是怎樣所以是第二項對關鍵還是第二項所以最近進場調節是在於要控制輸入性的通膨而不是在於出口的競爭優勢是好 謝謝副總長謝謝好 謝謝郭國文委員的發言接下來請林代化委員"},{"start":5560.693,"end":5568.48,"text":"有請經濟部部長台電中油次長今天是次長次長好委員好"},{"start":5575.899,"end":5591.361,"text":"好來台電先回答本席一個問題自從3月初我們這個荷末之海峽封鎖之後台電目前增加天然氣購置的成本是什麼狀況請回答"},{"start":5595.707,"end":5616.384,"text":"中東的情勢是在2月28號左右發生所以3月之後的天然氣的價格是沒有受到影響但是到4月的時候調漲了41.58%我如果用這個荷莫斯海峽封鎖之後你們所增加的天然氣購置的成本"},{"start":5617.372,"end":5633.246,"text":"那天然氣購置的成本你們預估4月到12月會增加多少的天然氣購置成本對 這個只是因為是每個月都在變動那不是非常固定啦好 本席告訴你 930億所以從4月到12月大概930億每個月平均100億台幣"},{"start":5641.733,"end":5661.288,"text":"因為河末之海峽封鎖那這是你的錯嗎本席不認為那既然今天次長來督導這個所有的這個人員的部分那我認為這是忠友的錯那忠友是不是這是現任董事長的錯那我也不認為是你的錯是誰的錯你們的一個副總主導全台灣天然氣的構置"},{"start":5668.68,"end":5690.791,"text":"董事長你應該知道我在說你哪一位副總天然氣女神業界是這麼樣瘋的他可以讓台灣現在此時此刻讓我們台灣多花了每天100億的在每個月每100億台幣的天然氣成本好那這來我們來看這整個的始末"},{"start":5693.648,"end":5709.733,"text":"國際國運國管這是本期的主張台灣能源百分之九十有來自國外天然氣發電佔比已經達到百分之五十以上國際國運國管天然氣是我們自己買的我們也要自己運也要有自己的船隊來管理這是國安"},{"start":5711.073,"end":5716.115,"text":"生命線那這個歷次本席針對歷次的院長蘇院長陳院長到現在卓院長部長從王部長郭部長到現在的龔部長即使是國發會的龔主委的時候本席也都提出現在天然氣進口"},{"start":5726.918,"end":5745.804,"text":"合約跟運輸DES跟FOB這兩種模式在DES我就說它是自氣他運我們自己跟人家採購了就變成自己的天然氣了自給天然氣但是是他運由賣方礦組的船隻自己提供船隻到我方來"},{"start":5746.904,"end":5759.008,"text":"那FoB呢是自己的天然氣我們買了天然氣之後自己的船隻自己運我們的自棄他運用他國的船隻來運的這樣採購模式佔了台灣的85%而我們自己的船隊來自己從礦產運到我們自己的國家這樣才達不到15%"},{"start":5772.012,"end":5790.436,"text":"那這樣的運費差多少呢 其實最了解的就是中油董事長了DES如果用別的國家的船運回來 跟我用自己的船運回來 長約來講將近四倍 這四倍是多少呢 船租喔 每日DES的這個長約一天船租是40萬美金"},{"start":5794.657,"end":5800.82,"text":"我的FOB自己的船一天的船租是10萬主計長你要聽清楚你知道看國家損失了多少錢一趟的天然氣要28天我運一趟來28天你看我們現在都是DES的長約佔85%我們的採購"},{"start":5815.249,"end":5840.989,"text":"40萬美金一趟一天我們28天算30天好了1200萬美金我們一年有幾百趟幾百趟那個船次400大概430幾432趟次如果我沒有記錯大概400趟次沒有那麼多好那多少趟次沒關係您說我們天然氣一年要幾趟次大約300多"},{"start":5844.933,"end":5869.335,"text":"差不多340到350我們就340是吧 主計長您聽好一天的船隻40萬一趟我們要運一次回來28天40萬乘以28然後呢一年有340趟的船隻你知道我們85%的把船隻船隊是別的國家指控我們花了多少錢"},{"start":5870.336,"end":5888.528,"text":"然後我們的FOB自己的船隊四艘它的運量不到15%一天是10萬美元這就是我說中油的一個副總他主導全台灣的一個天然氣本期在什麼時候提出這個訴求呢這也是 來 我們下一頁"},{"start":5893.547,"end":5893.727,"text":"在2022、2023、2024、2025在2022的時候"},{"start":5902.077,"end":5909.402,"text":"2022、21月的時候我要求國企國運好 隔年的2月的時候台電、中油各自回答台電說啊我們2025的時候我們台電也可以自己來買天然氣不需要像現在全部都有中油來跟中油架構它漲了我也必須全額吸收那中油呢就回答說啊不行啊我一定我不能改為長約我不能改為這個FOB喔的長約喔我要到2032年的時候我的船"},{"start":5931.155,"end":5933.817,"text":"DS的長約才改為FOP的長約2032年好 那到了這個隔一個月本席就要求國企 國運 國管我要自己的船隊啊因為像海峽兩岸都在扣在軍演啊"},{"start":5946.568,"end":5964.174,"text":"好那軍演之後誰的船只有自己國籍的國家船我派了護艦隊我的船長會親密我們國人我們國家政府的政策他願意在我們國家的艦隊護航之下把天然氣運回來因為我們的發電百分之五十以上是靠天然氣"},{"start":5965.695,"end":5968.957,"text":"好所以我在這邊要求說DS的短單能夠提出來你的長單我不動你佔了70%的長單我就不動了你現在30%的短單跟現貨單"},{"start":5981.262,"end":6003.412,"text":"我們提出10%改為FOB的長單就是我們自己的船隊來運這樣分散風險向美澳採購培養自己的國籍船隊配合國家的政策以防止政治風險在2023年3月的時候提出2024本席再執行2025的時候呢經濟部你終於回復交通部了好我們願意國企國運國管建立自己的船隊那有沒有作為 沒有"},{"start":6004.572,"end":6020.764,"text":"那很不幸的就在今年隔年的時候呢中東戰爭爆發河末之海峽封鎖天然技全球搶單現貨坐地起價這邊我要講明搶單也就不是長約也不是短約而是現貨"},{"start":6022.125,"end":6037.11,"text":"主計長啊 你知道現在的坐地起價 我還用所知經濟部不敢回我 我不需要商業機密你不要告訴我說你一趟多彩不需要但是我想知道的 到底你現在現貨搶單 什麼叫搶單 化假啦"},{"start":6040.131,"end":6042.712,"text":"我現在是礦主啦你A國家、B國家、C國家你來買我現在大家都在搶啊沒有長短短的啦你搶其實要搶的對你真是不錯啦但是你知道那個是天價我要的是你現在的搶貨的價格"},{"start":6059.461,"end":6079.221,"text":"跟你用正常FOB我們自己提供長約所的那個長單的價格我要的是這樣的一個比例你們沒有辦法給出來這個等一下我會要求我需要比例就好你就知道國人因為在2022年的時候本席提出國企國運甚至國管"},{"start":6080.422,"end":6106.344,"text":"你們漠視其實2022、2023在戰爭沒有時候陳平時期澳洲美國都是願意賣的那也願意去談的啊你們不願意好所以呢我們說國家主權獨立你們就只有在這個政治圖像當中去講主權獨立啊對我林戴華來講我怎麼主權獨立我要讓我國人的人員自主這也要獨立他的民生安全遇到任何的狀況他都能夠主權獨立啊"},{"start":6108.846,"end":6114.508,"text":"你們有沒有落實 沒有所以台電現在荷末之海峽這個封鎖之後你每個月幾乎增加100億天然氣天然的這個燃料成本中油配合這個政策動漲民生跟工業企價但不好意思你台電全部就轉嫁給台電你全額漲足所以台電你真的是齁人家在搬火燒燒你們家的房子啦你的房子你要自己付錢這樣啦現在中油和台電就是這樣啦好那這個呢在"},{"start":6138.437,"end":6154.653,"text":"拿國家的人員安全當賭注所以市長經濟我們現在每天台灣一天至少要一艘天然氣靠船港才能維持運作我一天就一定要一艘喔那這次你賭贏了嗎你賭了4月5月說好我們現在船期都已經OK了都穩固了6月"},{"start":6161.039,"end":6182.577,"text":"你說你們八成掌握在你們手中那你還要賭七月八月九月到年底你要賭什麼所以你們經濟部跟中油賭一定搶得到錢根本無計全球搶當的現況你經濟部跟中油賭所有的不穩定因素都不會爆發根本無視我地緣政治的風險你經濟部跟中油你賭船隻一定會準時靠港無視海運節點的阻礙"},{"start":6187.421,"end":6215.062,"text":"好這種地緣政治引發能源危機全球能源的焦慮這是赤裸裸的警訊什麼叫做處理這個危機最高的境界就是不讓危機發生所以我當然對於台灣我不希望他有海域被封鎖但我不讓這個危機發生的時候我怎麼來預防海域被封鎖的如果有這個狀況我們自己的船隊在哪裡目前就那四艘台達輪"},{"start":6216.363,"end":6218.864,"text":"我們的人員自主權在哪裡現在叫做國際搶單當中國真的封鎖台灣海域的時候你拿什麼去賭台灣2300萬人民的人員自主在哪裡你還要靠這場的賭博弈的邏輯來維持台灣的民生必須跟人員安全嗎"},{"start":6235.33,"end":6240.171,"text":"好 這我再講一下這種叫官僚惰性 人員安全的雙面人在陳平時期的時候 經濟部 中油你說要等到2032年才有機會重新招商改為FOP的模式但現在危機爆發的這個現況政府用緊急的採購方式搶得天價的現貨這證明了什麼 證明本席過往的主張"},{"start":6260.336,"end":6266.259,"text":"不是不能做 而是你行政單元不願意做你平時不規劃 到了危機發生的時候到處搶單提高了採購的成本 這種採購的成本是幾百億 幾百億美金啊"},{"start":6275.505,"end":6296.2,"text":"這更讓台灣的人員暴露在極高的風險之下主席再兩頁就好地域政治引發人員危機現況是集中跟脆弱我單一依賴中東的企園在卡達百分百的依賴外籍船隻的調度我國慶國運國管的這是本席的這個訴求分散採購風險轉為跟澳洲美國採購強制運人的轉換立即提出10%的採購量改為FOP的長單國防防護網"},{"start":6305.046,"end":6310.511,"text":"培養國籍船長跟建立國籍船隊好那本席這邊的提出10%提出來你們現在現貨我回到剛才的那一頁我有比較高嗎我們還說日本韓國你看我們的場面謝謝 謝謝主席"},{"start":6321.92,"end":6323.161,"text":"我們看長約這張表 長約跟短約 我長約不動你說2032年改為FOP長約 沒問題 你的短約看右邊你的DS 智氣他運跟現貨搶當 現在佔80%我只要你這30%的短約 其中10%改為長約"},{"start":6339.709,"end":6354.669,"text":"這樣長約的百分之十再加上你原有的FoB的自棄自運的百分之十五不過二十五的長約自己的船隊自己來運日本韓國要求他們自己國家的自己自棄自運達到比例多少百分之三十"},{"start":6355.652,"end":6360.853,"text":"日本 韓國是這樣 我這樣要求只不過從你的15%提高到25%而已好 我們看最後一頁我的主張就是經濟部要回答經濟部要主導落實國企 國運 國管的人才培育跟船隊你要協調相關的部會 交通部 教育部跟中油拒絕再用2032年延旦為藉口國安不能靠賭運器拒絕依賴"},{"start":6381.638,"end":6399.371,"text":"偶然的幸運國家人員安全需要制度化的長期保障跟自主權拒絕天價高額的應急平時不規劃暫時到處搶單的狼狽模式將使台灣人員暴露這個極高的風險一個月內交付國企國運國管的具體時針到本委員會來可以嗎"},{"start":6400.652,"end":6405.434,"text":"經濟部對於能源的安全從來不是用賭的我們設法消除了殘餘風險時間到了我們就直接用書面回應是在過油過氣的部分都是依照國際的行"},{"start":6427.435,"end":6452.347,"text":"好接下來因為我們今天時間的關係外文會也登記很多人喔等一下我要讓大家有時間上洗手間所以拜託大家時間稍微做一下控制謝謝來接下來請嚴寬恒委員好謝謝主席各位列席官員大家好主席有請我們經濟部賴長次賴長次謝謝還有中油公司方董事長方董事長"},{"start":6461.909,"end":6477.175,"text":"中東戰爭原先協議停火但是昨天談判破裂所以再度面臨油價上漲的壓力那我們就從最民生的部分來檢討就是延燒至今的塑膠袋短缺的問題"},{"start":6479.376,"end":6504.515,"text":"讓民眾不堪欺擾主要原因就是因為原料缺貨我們鞏部長上個月才說塑膠袋很好生產非常好生產所以供貨沒有問題結果馬上就爆發塑膠袋之亂這就代表說不夠了解市場雖然我們是希望說民眾能夠減塑減少塑膠但是不是說沒有塑膠袋"},{"start":6505.496,"end":6519.97,"text":"所以其實台灣全國各縣市都有非常多的傳統市場市場攤販現在都反應陳情說塑膠袋買不到連像我們路邊的這些早餐店他們都貼公告說不提供塑膠袋要自備"},{"start":6520.811,"end":6543.548,"text":"那所以目前請中油跟台塑生產這個量能增加但是還是難以解決短期的這些缺乏還有價格上漲的問題所以這一次是你們預判錯誤導致塑膠量大量缺貨那你們的因應對策是什麼有沒有這個加大力道去稽查是否有業者故意哄買物價還有這個違法囤積的問題"},{"start":6546.61,"end":6567.031,"text":"那預計的這個量能能夠提高就生產的部分能夠提高多少那我是希望說在永格機場這種如果有這些投機行為不管是虹台物價還有囤積物的這些部分因為攤販生存很不容易那為了有些為了要買這個塑料袋一大早跑了五間店結果發現說"},{"start":6569.614,"end":6579.234,"text":"早上去看他介紹 到下午介紹又差20% 又過兩聲所以說這是一種等於是趁火打劫的行為那所以可不可以請市長先回答一下"},{"start":6580.712,"end":6603.871,"text":"就如同剛剛委員講的預期的心理可能會造成產銷秩序的失衡但事實上經濟部為了解決這個問題從幾個方面著手第一個原料的穩定的供給中油的擴大的生產下油的加速的媒合我以塑膠袋生產的原料也就是我們做的塑膠粒這個產品以吸為力"},{"start":6607.654,"end":6629.734,"text":"乙烯大概一個月需要差不多11.8萬噸但是我們現在所有的國內的生產差不多將近超過16萬噸那遠大於我們這個需求那原料生產跟供應你現在說沒問題可是沒問題為什麼缺貨所以我們要把問題找出來啊紅柴物價囤積啊找到了沒有"},{"start":6630.234,"end":6656.88,"text":"所以這個部分由我們透過跨部會的一個聯合的稽查這個部分來執行看看委員有沒有你說的現象但是重點是說當現在民眾有一些的恐慌或是店家有略感不足的話我們經濟部也每天透過電話跟群組的方式針對於所有的商圈所有的市場來去看它的需求性是如何"},{"start":6657.74,"end":6680.167,"text":"有沒有得到一個真實的數據是甚麼缺的到底缺了多少量基本上缺的量都是一些大家感到庫存不足的部分需要補貨的以我們的為例的話 比如說我們部長也除了透過我們商發署每天透過群組跟電話關懷之外 跟商圈"},{"start":6681.258,"end":6696.984,"text":"去看事實上以高雄的這個商圈為例的話他的商圈的理事長也有提到說他的一個特殊的這個用品的存量事實上是夠的但是現在沒有不足但是當天的會議有另外嘉義的這個業者來提到說"},{"start":6698.425,"end":6724.346,"text":"市長 你講到高雄 講到嘉義 講到各縣市那個產量是夠的 但是為什麼會缺貨所以問題要找出來嘛 所以就囤積嘛這些投機行為 不法行為 你要找出來所以我希望你們趕快去落實啦 好不好趕快去落實 這第一個第二個就是說 這個中東局勢的能源安全問題啦我們這個目前美伊談判破局了嘛所以繼續封鎖這個赫姆茲海峽"},{"start":6725.446,"end":6752.733,"text":"因為地緣政治風險溢價攀升所以面對伊朗不願放行的僵局雖然短期內有騷擬的原油供給但是因為赫敦海峽出口受阻中油在原油進口來源的多樣化上有什麼樣的應變方案因為你也親口證實說開戰以來沒有一桶原油來自於中東地區"},{"start":6753.473,"end":6774.286,"text":"沒有一桶原油從中東地區運送出來那因此目前除了沙烏地美國或者是西非原油進口的比例是否能在第二季快速的挑戰可以降低對於中東的依賴可以嗎第一個不是沒有一桶原油從中東進來遠景上面來講是通過荷姆茲海峽"},{"start":6776.068,"end":6801.349,"text":"但是我們透過繞道紅海的方式或是其他的這個區域來補足這一些因為受到荷姆茲海峽所影響的貨氣跟貨源那目前我們的所有不管是現貨未來的排程都有掌握了那至於油價的這個走向啊事實上我們時時的去觀察我個人我也經常去看油價的變動任何一個"},{"start":6804.271,"end":6824.045,"text":"國際的情勢或是一個國際的主要的領袖講一句話的話可能對於油價的一個漲跌都有很大的一個影響但是我們對於油價的部分我們有特定的一個機制亞林最低價專案還漲的這個機制所以我們目前的這個油價雖然說比"},{"start":6826.306,"end":6831.369,"text":"市長如果說海峽封鎖長期沒有什麼樣可以解套的話那7D31這個指標油價往上衝嘛現在120 130嘛對不對120 130那我們國內油價因為你現在是環漲對不對環漲嘛那他下一季或者更"},{"start":6851.217,"end":6873.486,"text":"到年底當然年底又牽扯到剛剛也有人提到其他有人提到說1月8號要選舉了油價不會漲肯定不會漲怕影響選舉但是我們什麼時候會面臨這個跳躍式的調升這第一個第二個就是說它那邊伊朗有拋出一個"},{"start":6874.446,"end":6885.858,"text":"一個計畫說要對於海峽的郵輪每桶徵收一美元的通行費就是通行費啦並要求要以加密貨幣來支付那"},{"start":6886.704,"end":6903.536,"text":"我國是我國油價採取7D3B的公司計算那請問這額外的1美元的通行費是被歸類於我們的原油採購成本還是中油的營運成本那如果是原油採購成本就代表說即便"},{"start":6904.517,"end":6932.524,"text":"原有的價格波動但是這屬於只要通行費存在通行費存在那國內的油價就無法調降嘛這又是另外一個無法不可預測的嘛是不是這樣子跟委員報告在戰事之前那國際的油價差不多每桶80塊左右最高來到122那你剛剛講的其實未來包括上個禮拜上個禮拜情勢稍微和緩馬上降到94那今天"},{"start":6933.584,"end":6959.443,"text":"那是差不多一百零二不管是布蘭特跟這個杜拜都是差不多是這個價格所以我們緊密的去關注國際的這個市場的一個報價的狀況那除此之外的話我們還是維持我們雙平穩的機制那至於你剛剛講的所謂的通行費的部分我們既然我們現在不需要從赫姆斯海峽沒有開放之前我們從其他的貨源來調貨自然沒有這個問題"},{"start":6963.211,"end":6985.807,"text":"伊朗更要求說要以加密貨幣的部分來做這樣子的支付我沒有跟伊朗我是說他拋出這樣子的說法如果說中友為了支付通行費我們必須要承受未來我們必須要承受這樣子的一個情況因為加密貨幣的漲跌劇烈 難以估計這一筆金融風險就產生了額外的負擔"},{"start":6992.731,"end":7004.072,"text":"那這個負擔又是被我們國人必須要轉嫁到國內所以我們是否未來有能力去應付到這種高度不穩定的支付成本這是第一個第一個就是說"},{"start":7007.422,"end":7025.398,"text":"中友必須要針對未來 如果說這樣子的一個加密貨幣的一個通行費的這樣子的方式去建立嚴謹的一個財務避險的機制現在沒發生嘛 是不是這樣子未來不見得會發生嘛現在沒有對 現在沒有啊"},{"start":7025.838,"end":7051.556,"text":"行政已經專案的核准了油品的貨物稅50%就是做這個因應那除此之外的話其實中油公司對於未來的採購的策略包括現在油品的這個價格都是密切的在緊盯那我們緊遵了我們現在的雙平穩的機制包括亞林最低價我們是希望把這個油的這個價格包括天然氣的價格"},{"start":7052.677,"end":7072.621,"text":"然後控制在不會造成我們國內經濟重大的影響的這個層面上面所以說我們一定要建立嚴謹的財務避險機制確保國內油價確保國內油價能夠確實反映國際情勢的一個緩解還有合理的回落啦好不好好謝謝委員長好謝謝我們感謝嚴寬恒這個準時的質詢結束接下來請賴會員委員"},{"start":7088.521,"end":7091.534,"text":"好謝謝主席我們請賴次長還有鍾游董事長"},{"start":7097.592,"end":7119.866,"text":"兩位早安委員好我想前面有很多委員已經提到了就是說台灣目前面臨到的問題非常的多了尤其是中東的戰事這個升溫然後那個荷姆茲海峽的運輸受阻那我們碰到了更多的台灣能源高度的依賴進口"},{"start":7121.187,"end":7139.487,"text":"其實很多很多的一個困境都不是單一的一個事件是一個結構性的一個風險可是台灣的能源跟民生的體系是不是可以承擔同時承受外部的一個衝擊那在這裡我想先跟中油董事長請教一下"},{"start":7141.169,"end":7165.48,"text":"很多委員 中油董事長 次長讓中油董事長先回答我我想問中油董事長因為前面好幾個委員已經跟你請教過了我簡單的就是室友我就不再跟你就是再繞了一個大圈我再請教你就是說我們的油價什麼時候會上升會調升你預計什麼時候要調升"},{"start":7170.035,"end":7191.631,"text":"跟委員報告,我們現在油價,每一週的油價都是每一週去做個檢討根據這一週的原油價格的一個變化情形來去依據油價公式去做一個核算之後再做一個檢討,對於下一週的油價要不要去做一些調整可能調漲,可能調降"},{"start":7193.012,"end":7208.701,"text":"所以你也沒有辦法就是回答我 但看現階段你下個星期可能就是說你要自行吸收你那個107億還是說你要繼續就是用現有的一個狀況就該調了就調"},{"start":7211.525,"end":7237.341,"text":"報告委員我現在很難回答你這個問題因為你很難回答我這個問題因為這一周的原油價格還在好讓次長來回答中油已吸收超過了100億這個帳要算在誰身上要算在中央政府身上還是要算在中油身上是中油自己出還是中央政府自己出那我們講短時間中東的戰事不會停止那如果我們再講的"},{"start":7238.041,"end":7250.638,"text":"就是說你中油的說法他其實船隻是卡在荷姆茲海峽上短時間國內的就是國際的油價有沒有可能下滑次長你的看法呢"},{"start":7252.189,"end":7273.361,"text":"第一個現在目前的這個狀況我剛剛有說明了上禮拜還94現在是102事實上每天變化非常的劇烈所以我們7D3B然後是針對於過去一週的平均的價格然後最後來做相關的核算那大概有兩個基準我們要維持雅齡最低價甚至是要專案"},{"start":7274.281,"end":7301.875,"text":"的這個部分來平穩我們的國內的油價的市場所以針對於說下一週會不會漲我們要靠近一點我們才比較能觀察出這個趨勢第二點委員剛剛質詢裡面有提到能源的部分要增加這個韌性減少地緣政治的影響總統上任之後接觸了二次能源轉型不管是多元綠能或是科技的儲能那這個都是我們的努力還有包括深度節能"},{"start":7302.515,"end":7328.865,"text":"以三月為例的話,事實上我們現在的總用電量還比去年的同期還減少那這個就是因為農業署的生活節能的補導我知道困難非常多啦那我們從經濟部的書面報告裡頭我們也看到了就是五月底的調度已經全部準備好了那六月也完成了七成那你甚至講到了九月,九月的傳期都調度很充足"},{"start":7329.645,"end":7351.681,"text":"那我在這裡再請教妳,像剛才那個林鄭華委員講的國運、國企、國管這個政策有沒有機會天然氣的這一個整套的一個計畫,還有卡著妳卡著的這個荷姆茲海峽的兩萬桶那個原油會不會把它拿去當談判的一個籌碼"},{"start":7353.342,"end":7371.543,"text":"只要回答我這些問題第一個不論是DES或是FORB都是國際的能源貿易市場上面經常用的所謂的運輸的方式那這個當然要搭配我們看看所謂的合約的組成跟自己國家的一個狀況那我"},{"start":7372.523,"end":7391.708,"text":"以中東戰事剛開始為例當時2月28之後我們因為整個市場比較大亂所以我們可以從亞洲地區來調貨那這些的調貨它並不是從FLV的這個船隻進來而DES的部分那你從哪邊調我們從東亞的一個市場東亞的一個市場那你這200萬桶的原油有沒有變成是一個談判的一個現貨徵購的一個籌碼"},{"start":7403.276,"end":7427.218,"text":"200萬桶是指現在還求在波斯灣裡面未通過荷姆茲海峽中油公司所專門的200萬桶的貨輪那現在在停泊之中那中油公司每天都去聯繫船東看看荷姆茲海峽的通行的狀況那一旦荷姆茲海峽情勢緩和可以和平的通過的時候這艘船就可以通過"},{"start":7428.459,"end":7448.79,"text":"不是他通過了你才可以用這些那國際談判的一個那個慣例的話事實上你迴避我好那不能講也沒有關係啦那個中原董事長你請先請回那我請那個我們的主計總長還有我們央行的副總裁"},{"start":7449.95,"end":7465.271,"text":"我想市長,過去幾年美國因為大量的開採鹽油,所以在這一次的中東戰事裡頭,油價沒有受到太大的一個衝擊"},{"start":7466.813,"end":7491.533,"text":"那其實在這裡是要跟你討論到的就是說我們其實一直就是集中在中東就是我們的原油一直集中在中東裡頭採購這個原油那所以就是說只要是中東有戰事的話我們的中油的價格就受到了受到了很大的一個影響反而是亞洲地區因為戰事的關係"},{"start":7493.194,"end":7509.526,"text":"就是說它其實是分散了那我在這裡就是說經濟部有沒有考慮就是要把台灣的石油進口轉移到美國的一個採購那你剛才也有講到了就是說在緊急的狀況其實我們還是有特別的辦法"},{"start":7510.527,"end":7532.764,"text":"那總統在去年也宣布了就是說台灣將採購更多的美國的天然氣顯然有意擴大了台灣天然氣的一個進口的來源這個是一件好事情那同樣原油呢是不是美國會添購更多的那個台灣會添購更多的美國的石油市長有沒有這樣的一個準備"},{"start":7534.133,"end":7557.768,"text":"謝謝委員的指導確實荷姆治海峽的地緣政治的關係相當的敏感那我們近幾年來不管是現在受到中東戰事的影響我們也針對於美國的原油的量的部分也是有在增加那未來多元的能源的來源就是我們未來的方向不管是原油或是天然氣都是如此"},{"start":7562.338,"end":7575.262,"text":"再請教一下央行副總裁還是要回到在之前就是三月份的時候我有跟總裁討論到了一個平穩物價基金平穩物價基金其實我們從2022年的那個"},{"start":7578.463,"end":7593.619,"text":"烏俄戰爭開始到現在我們看到了歷年歷年就是說整體的一個地緣政治危機帶給台灣往往是物價就是高漲那高漲的時候你石油是馬上看得到了可是"},{"start":7594.199,"end":7617.174,"text":"如果是葵花油大豆這些大眾物資的話中央政府面對的這些物價的一個問題通常我們給的解方都是有限的所以說在這裡跟央行特別請教有沒有機會因為我一直在講說你這個平穩物價基金你是要成立的你不能老是靠你的一個護稅護稅減稅的一個方式去來解決這些辦法那我想聽副總裁的一個說法"},{"start":7625.579,"end":7643.546,"text":"報告委員因為所謂的物價平穩基金應該是由行政院來主導對那央行如果有需要的部分我們會再研議吧行政院來主導行政院一定會聽聽央行你有什麼樣的一個建議嗎"},{"start":7644.426,"end":7667.877,"text":"因為報告委員因為您今天剛扔出這個議題我自己對這個問題我上個上三頁的時候就問了你們總裁啦那你們總裁告訴我也是一樣啊說這個不關央行的事情央行只管貨幣是嗎如果央行的責任只有這麼簡單的話只是那個機制的本身可能不合適由央行來主導啦好"},{"start":7673.789,"end":7689.645,"text":"就是再一次跟副總裁再提醒不斷的提醒那個央行是有這樣的一個責任的副總裁你請回我想就是行政院的解方還是從那個烏鵝戰爭那一套留下來的"},{"start":7690.666,"end":7708.046,"text":"就是持續的護稅的一個減徵在次長我想這個也是讓你提醒你啦倒是主計長這一個減徵都已經很久了可是有沒有平穩地那個物價的功能你自己憑良心講主計長你自己憑良心講已經做了這麼久了"},{"start":7710.082,"end":7738.681,"text":"以三月來講我們三月的整個物價才1.2所以它整個是影響不大所以真正要看四月那四月整個的部分我們整個的一個主席長我現在在提醒的就是說那如果我們用惡物戰爭在整體它的核心核心的一個CPI這樣子的一個算法來講的話其實在短期內它很快喔它很快喔它會超過2.0"},{"start":7740.142,"end":7765.7,"text":"不會 因為現在你都每一次都跟我說不會那個通膨那我難道還要問你說額外增進萬萬多嗎每個禮拜都在討論每個物價都對於針對物價的一個波動的問題包括你所謂的塑膠袋的問題包括所謂的瀝青的問題這個我們都有研究都有在討論研究的一個解決方法所以我們不會讓它物價的通膨再往上漲"},{"start":7766.661,"end":7768.304,"text":"原則上是我們會有一些相關穩定的措施來做"},{"start":7773.004,"end":7795.478,"text":"我每一次都是要再重複一次是我們絕對不要重演2022年不會這個歷史的經驗告訴我們是我跟你講要準備雖然你一直出來信心喊話我還是要再跟你提醒是主席長沒有那麼樂觀這是副院長親自召集的物價穩定小組我都親自參加每次都親自參加是"},{"start":7797.239,"end":7818.476,"text":"我還是覺得沒有那麼樂觀謝謝 謝謝主席 謝謝大家謝謝賴慧雲委員我們待會在劉淑檳委員結束質詢之後我們休息五分鐘上洗手間因為今天時間發言的人是非常的多那請各位委員後續大家把時間稍微注意一下好不好好 來 接下來請劉淑檳委員"},{"start":7828.015,"end":7835.926,"text":"好謝謝主席那有請央行副總裁還有經濟部賴次長跟中油的董事長上台"},{"start":7843.939,"end":7862.632,"text":"好 副總裁根據主計處公布的這個三月的CPI它的年增率僅到1.2%但是我們看到的是它是因為中油在檔還包括了水果物價下降但是總共在IPI的部分以美元計價的部分月增率到4.68%年增率還到8.53%我這次特別注意到中央銀行的報告當中他指出來說他以這個IEA"},{"start":7872.259,"end":7889.869,"text":"還有OECD還有INF跟World Bank當中我指出來說這次中東的這個動盪呢比兩次石油危機加上沃爾戰爭的總和都還要嚴峻嘛對不對對好那這次呢我就想說那央行你特別在後面有講到說會採取的是說對妥適的一個貨幣政策嘛那我就想說那你們的觀察點是在哪裡呢"},{"start":7893.175,"end":7903.859,"text":"觀察這個貨幣的就是說趁貨幣政策要做一些調整的話你們觀察點是在哪裡在決定後面的措施呢我們基本上還是看我們對那個物價的國內物價的通貨膨脹的情況而定"},{"start":7908.103,"end":7912.527,"text":"就只有這樣子 對那通貨膨脹在哪個區間哪個一個數據才會呈現出來嗎我們目前我們過去大概都會在2%的時候是我們的一個警戒線CPI是2%的時候對 但是已經有調整過的嘛"},{"start":7925.319,"end":7940.648,"text":"這是因為你們有這個評議物價機制啦不過你們現在既然不願意看的話我覺得你們應該是尊重還是國際間的這個趨勢嘛對不對其他的央行的趨勢當然那個整個國際的經濟金融情勢也會影響到整個國際的金融變化和物價變化我們也會當然會關注這個議題的發展"},{"start":7943.598,"end":7953.204,"text":"好 那我們在下面再請下一位再請的是信基部次長因為我們看到這是中東最大的這個動盪是因為這個進口能源的價格上升當然你採取的啞鈴最低價還包括一些緩漲的這個措施等等但是依然凸顯出我國的能源的依賴度非常高還有我的能源韌性"},{"start":7965.951,"end":7968.652,"text":"具體一點是我們對比去年今年的3月跟去年的3月我們節電了1.68%"},{"start":7988.376,"end":8012.715,"text":"那除此之外這個是深度節能就是我們能源轉型提升韌性的一環另外一個部分非常的重要是多元的綠能老天爺給我們的我們的自己能源假如可以增加的話這樣子是很好的你會具體說有沒有什麼措施什麼之類的啊比如說我們的離岸風電現在併網數已經達到4.5這個一個GGA還有包括太陽能光電的話已經達到15.6"},{"start":8016.378,"end":8040.991,"text":"這些都不需要進口的這是老天爺給我的節能部分呢?因為有些這個空氣健康聯盟他們講到說我們的節能啊包括能源效率的提升是非常不好的事實上數據啊更顯示了我們針對於老舊的所謂的家電的這個設施汰換的部分大概今年都可以達到我們的目標除此之外 目標是多少?基本上好像是700多萬台"},{"start":8043.376,"end":8070.962,"text":"那我們分幾年就把這個今年大概是最後一年可以把我們統計的這個老舊的這個家電把它汰換完那除此之外的話最重要的是工業生產的一個部分那工業生產我們結合包括韌性的方案包括對於節能標章的一個補助我們協助我們的所謂的產業界然後針對於他生產的一個熱棒或是他的冷氣的設施來做一些的輔導跟汰換"},{"start":8072.722,"end":8074.904,"text":"我想這部分 次長你這邊是不是要匯後給我一個報告這樣子好 沒有問題那我們繼續再往下看 再請問一下中油因為這次的中油的部分的油價最後20幾年以稅前批售價的部分來看的話其實沒什麼大變"},{"start":8089.173,"end":8104.633,"text":"那最重要的變化最重要就是還是以杜拜以7D3B就是加上布蘭特有流的方式來進行但是現在的中油的進口石油六成來自美國嘛四成來自中東地區那是不是呢如果你用7D3B的話呢這個漲幅是高達65%"},{"start":8107.597,"end":8122.984,"text":"那如果改的現狀是6W4D的方式呢再漲幅是54%了它這個存在的11%的這種差距是不是就可能可以改變掉那是不是這樣才能改變到成為更真實的去反映成本"},{"start":8125.898,"end":8146.8,"text":"首先澄清一下這所謂六成西德州原油事實上我們西德州原油買的還是用布蘭特計價所以它還是B並不是西德州原油這第一個澄清第二個就是所謂7D3B或6D4B來講在整個油價公司它其實是算漲幅它不是算那個絕對值"},{"start":8148.462,"end":8176.724,"text":"那麼當外界呢對於這個技嘉的公司比例上有所存疑那中央公司也答應了在半年內做出這個檢討好但是這個半年之內我們想要再繼續看下去因為你們的版本當中是以過去是用在以運費啦然後還有匯率啊加油站等營運的這個費用等等是不是可以考要到不同來源地的這個運費啊還有地緣政治波動的保險費跟售電價跟員工薪資影響的成本都會不會算進去"},{"start":8177.826,"end":8197.416,"text":"這次這個油價檢討的話我們有這個考慮把一些以往沒有考慮進去的因素呢也一起納進來一起做一個檢討那是不是到時候你們可以把這樣的一個因素放進來讓本席也知道說你們到時候這半年之內事實上半年之內太久了耶是 這部分我們會一起納入檢討"},{"start":8198.776,"end":8199.777,"text":"昨天看到的是中國提供十大會台措施的出爐"},{"start":8215.442,"end":8221.528,"text":"這邊包括在第五項跟第七項、第八項當中有對於說要對台灣的農業產品包括以採取便利或是小微企業開拓大陸市場這些部分要提供一些便利方便但是這邊我們也看到中國曾經有說有病蟲害或是註冊的問題對台灣的產品有做禁運的部分"},{"start":8237.024,"end":8248.732,"text":"經濟部的態度是怎麼樣那如何避免風險尤其是有些預警機制是不是要提出來甚至還有包括我們也看到說過去農業部分有這種好多項的這樣的國家核心關鍵技術他怎麼樣防止他外流"},{"start":8250.479,"end":8270.571,"text":"去年我們繳出12年來量力的成...積極成長率的成績單今年依照大家的預估也差不多7.6、7.7左右甚至比中國的4.6都還大幅的所以我們針對於五大信賴產業包括協助中小微企業的轉型傳統產業的轉型力主台灣"},{"start":8274.153,"end":8301.579,"text":"行銷全世界佈局全球這個就是我們的一個方向那至於你剛剛講農運產品的部分那因為那是屬於農業部的一個主管不過基本上我們看到幾個數據來看的話不論是三大的投資方案截到目前為止的話將近有差不多是2.6兆我們預估到明年可能也超過3.6兆元左右所以我們在既有的這個所謂的軌道上面"},{"start":8302.159,"end":8319.796,"text":"然後來協助我們國內企業的轉型還有包括他AI的運用甚至是對於我們所注意的維生的半導體還有包括AI的這個部分的發展這就是我們現在所做的所以你們認為是對中國就不必特別去注意是嗎過去"},{"start":8322.762,"end":8343.149,"text":"有統計的數字啊但是台灣全世界各國的一個資金離開中國的一個狀況還是幾乎是一個天來勢的一個下降好 這個我就想繼續再問下去沒問題沒問題我們應該要依照我們自己的這個策略跟我們的步伐然後謹慎的一步一步來面對國際的經濟的一個挑戰"},{"start":8345.551,"end":8347.974,"text":"這也是看到經濟部的態度那我們繼續往下看到在韌性特別預算當中經濟部持續的提供了四項的產業四大措施嘛460億那這邊呢最重要是提升技術能量跟加強海外市場"},{"start":8361.095,"end":8376.16,"text":"但是呢我們就想問一下呢經濟部你這邊多元市場分散有增加一些比較多的國家的他們這些比例嗎那有沒有新增市場那我看到有那個報導就是他們做調查是說希望說經濟部這邊我國家這邊能夠在新簽訂的雙邊的貿易協定的規劃這樣會對我們的擴展外交市場有大幫助那請問這邊叫經濟部市長你們這邊的回答是怎麼樣"},{"start":8386.192,"end":8413.787,"text":"好 謝謝委員在我起初的這個報告裡面提到我們針對於強化海外的佈局的一個市場包括海外的拓銷的部分我們不但是結合了工協會而也給個別的廠商更多的補助讓他們用台灣但是我要看效果啊那效果的部分我剛剛已經有提到了不管是我們的經濟成長實質的成長率我們都比過去的還更好"},{"start":8414.107,"end":8432.712,"text":"那個是有特殊原因我現在大家看一下市長你看一下這邊我們看到的情況是113年的時候美國是排名在出口值的第二個大市場到去年2025年的時候美國變成第一大市場那這個部分呢把它越高而且我們順差也變得越高那這邊對於說要去如果用"},{"start":8433.152,"end":8450.538,"text":"美國用關稅的上面來去做我們的一些協商來去做一些處理的話呢這又變成一個可能是很大的一個部分就是你們這邊其他的部分對東協啦歐洲日本這些部分呢有沒有再去增加它的一種比例因為看起來還是美國最大的一個集中度啊這樣其實對我並不是好事啊"},{"start":8451.428,"end":8480.131,"text":"第一個不管是我們的海外的這個貿易中心不管是在波蘭或是日本我們都有設立那另外的話你剛剛講到這個數據因為AI的大幅的成長那當然它這個部分也是我們重要的生產的這個外銷的一個來源所以你會看到這個增比是很大的但是我們在全球佈局上面不管你是你剛剛講的東亞東協甚至是包括菲律賓這些我們經濟部不管是貿易處"},{"start":8481.152,"end":8497.561,"text":"我們都有很多的一些相關的一些沒有我希望是看到這實際上有分散的效果不然你們當初的這個效果任性的這個條例的效果我們可能沒有達到那最後一部分就在好那最後我就這樣相關的部分我再請這個請做書面報告因為反映出來一個問題就是說如果要組成一個國家還是說增加美國的部分的話可能是國家隊的意見必須要國家隊是希望政府能幫忙的部分那就請經濟部這邊再給我們後面一個報告好不好"},{"start":8510.608,"end":8523.834,"text":"我們後續就請經濟部用書面回覆劉淑冰委員好不好 謝謝主席那我們就先休息五分鐘我們等一下就五分鐘之後一定準時開始否則我們今天會拖到很晚 謝謝"},{"start":9020.828,"end":9040.127,"text":"繼續開會 請李燕秀 李昭偉質詢謝謝主席 我是不是可以邀請陳淑珠 陳淑資主席長永陽行副總裁 法務部的張司長衛福部的林靜怡次長經濟部的賴次長 國發會的高副主委高副主委 請一邊上台"},{"start":9042.248,"end":9061.674,"text":"大家好因為今天時間非常緊湊我們在最近針對聯合稽查的部分我們大規模的發動了好幾次的稽查目前稽查的結果其實很大的陣仗但是我們卻沒有任何一件涉嫌違法對不對幾乎都是合法的對不對稽查的結論"},{"start":9067.996,"end":9082.716,"text":"根委員報告目前我們在稽查的情形裡面大概有兩件是有列入他治安在做偵辦的那其餘的部分也有一些可能看起來是有異常情形也都在持續的釐清他的這個漲價的情形"},{"start":9084.178,"end":9097.264,"text":"也就是說目前看到的大的漲價的狀況沒有異常囤積或不法的烘台形勢其他兩件都還在調查當中就是說物價上漲並不是聯合的壟斷而是我們現在國際原物料飆漲結構性的問題推升的一個結果"},{"start":9105.447,"end":9108.628,"text":"就是說現在的漲價都應該是輸入性通膨的問題就是說我們目前的結論就是漲價是真的但是沒有任何不法的狀況不是跟犯罪沒有關係我可以做這樣的結論嗎"},{"start":9122.12,"end":9136.88,"text":"跟委員報告因為法務部我們主責的部分就是針對刑事的部分那有犯罪嫌疑的部分我清楚都在他站調查就是說漲價是真的但是這大致上都沒有囤積的事實那我們最近看到"},{"start":9137.18,"end":9158.177,"text":"到底涨了哪些东西包括现在前一阵子大家讨论到的塑胶袋之乱之外但现在涨价也进入了医院根据医院团的调查79%的医院反映塑胶衣材的供货上涨42%医院订货受到了很大的影响包括我们大家都知道的次长"},{"start":9159.077,"end":9161.619,"text":"PVC的手套漲了35%到46%抽痰管漲了17%到24%保料管漲了25%到21%氣管抽痰漲了21%細菌過濾器漲了10%到32%"},{"start":9174.508,"end":9182.591,"text":"超過一半的醫院都反映大量的這些狀況都訂貨42%的醫院訂貨受到影響29%的醫院庫存量也出現不足的狀況這個是整體目前漲價的狀況所以這不是夜市攤販買不到塑膠袋的問題"},{"start":9196.397,"end":9206.842,"text":"次長這不是買不到塑膠袋的問題這是現在醫院包括抽痰管跟導尿管手套都在漲價的問題這個漲價的狀況物價飆漲包括供貨有可能持續的惡化"},{"start":9212.645,"end":9225.004,"text":"也會影響到我們現在醫療院所業務維持的監控包括後續我們更擔心的是醫療服務品質甚至會侵害到醫院病人就醫的權益這個是我們後續擔心的狀況當然"},{"start":9228.729,"end":9246.578,"text":"我知道市長我們現在有四個具體的措施可以去做處理包括跨部會的協助供應通報還有支付標準的調整等狀況但是我聽到很多醫療院所的陳情包括他們跟我們溝通多數都不是缺貨的問題而是成本的飛漲"},{"start":9248.139,"end":9272.294,"text":"這個成本的飛漲後續這就不是我們藥物平台可以去做處理的那衛福部的剛才的書面報告我也讀到就是說你們有提到說可以申請調高相關的一些給付的價格包括任性預算當中我們也編列了200億的安全準備金那我要請問次長我們目前有廠商提出申請嗎目前兩家"},{"start":9273.675,"end":9293.163,"text":"那我們現在請他們拿出他們的成本的這個部分才能夠讓健保署這邊去做計算因為這個我想委員也很清楚長期在未還所以我們在健保給付的價格事實上要請廠商這邊拿出他們相關的成本價格然後重新來做討論市長但是我們知道我剛剛講這些狀況不會只有兩家會有成本的問題因為這個後面就是"},{"start":9294.043,"end":9312.328,"text":"醫院營運成本整個提高我跟您報告就是說第一個事情其實醫院這邊跟各家廠商多數如果是大型醫療院所他們在原先的供貨是有供貨的契約所以供貨的契約這邊他們不能自己去就是說自己去把他的成本做調整因為原來供貨的那個成本就有處理這是第一個事情"},{"start":9312.868,"end":9328.059,"text":"第二個事情我們現在其實在我們是從源頭端來做處理所以說我們也很感謝經濟部協助我們我們總共27家藥品跟醫材廠商有跟我們通報但是其中7家他們到今年年底都還有庫存的這個資料我要請教次長就是說我們後面會不會開會討論支付的標準要調整"},{"start":9333.123,"end":9347.936,"text":"我想成本提高了這個部分我們在支付標準的部分兩個事情第一個事情是因為如果醫院本身跟他的這個醫材或藥品廠商簽的約他簽了約那時候他的原來供給的那個價格其實他成本上面事實上回到的是廠商這裡不是醫院這裡"},{"start":9350.738,"end":9369.866,"text":"廠商成本提高他可能也會跟醫院溝通所以跟您報告說我們的方向事實上現在是請經濟部協助就是讓他的供貨這邊從供貨成本來做處理避免廠商這邊因為我們去調健保價事實上是醫院這邊可是健保價他的給付我們給付健保價對醫院來講他的成本他原先跟廠商這邊簽的約他影響不在這邊我再請問一個問題市長我們會比較輸益的方式處理嗎"},{"start":9376.108,"end":9394.487,"text":"蘇伊現在是缺貨缺貨的時候我們是用專案進口全面我們自己來處理那你會編列專案的預算來去做後續的處理嗎委員現在全世界它都是在這個塑膠的原料的部分我知道這是世界性的問題但是在廠商這邊或者是在醫院端這邊我們會不會有專案的方式來協助我們現在就是說如果在"},{"start":9394.827,"end":9411.522,"text":"真的他就因為他的這個成本影響到他這個健保給付價格那就剛剛像剛剛跟委員報告的我們走健保的這個溢價的程序他回到我們供你會來做處理那如果有需求我們立法供你會就來開但是廠商這邊要那個成本的資料給我們那你錢從哪裡來就是那200億"},{"start":9414.577,"end":9431.442,"text":"兩百億 那個準備金如果兩百億準備金不夠的話呢我們現在估起來會夠因為估起來寬估跟窄估大概都在幾十億而已好 但是我們還是希望是說因為健保價的調整它影響很大我希望這個是短期的對 所以我們希望只要做各式各樣model的"},{"start":9432.162,"end":9450.148,"text":"我們會從前端原料端來做處理那接下來我就要請問一下就是說在這段時間無論是塑膠袋的缺貨或相關的一些塑膠製品的缺貨這個差價我知道衛福部之前有請經濟部協調大型石化廠優先供應國人醫療所需"},{"start":9451.989,"end":9462.141,"text":"所以當時中油的專案提供了五千噸的平價乙烯那這個五千噸的平價乙烯這個價格是由誰吸收?中油吸收了嗎?"},{"start":9463.649,"end":9484.111,"text":"這個是由我們中油公司來協調它包括它下油供應商台塑公司一起來讓這個所謂的不管是進料的價格或是出料的這個價格的部分維持一個平穩我知道 那這個價格是誰吸收 因為中間有差價嘛沒有嗎 還是你直接叫廠商就是一定要給你平價 不可能吧"},{"start":9484.951,"end":9504.443,"text":"中油供給台塑的生產塑膠力的售價部分就是平穩的專案平穩的一個措施這個價格的部分不會像外面坊間叫價你要漲到50%或是多少%以上"},{"start":9506.044,"end":9526.853,"text":"妳跟台塑是用什麼樣的價格?跟過去一樣的價格嗎?這5000噸的平價乙烯,妳叫平價乙烯,妳是用什麼樣的價格?跟過去價格一樣嗎?他們現在已經有簽訂一個合約了我要問的就是,這個價格跟過去不一樣嘛,因為都在缺貨嘛所以這個價格是誰吸收了?"},{"start":9527.389,"end":9554.204,"text":"市長跟委員報告就是這個五千噸是一個專案的評價的專案那輸送的對象就是給台塑那我們給他以息這個產品那價格的部分的話呢就是評價所以在價格的部分有做一些特別的考慮那麼雙方互相吸收是他退一些你退一些但是還是有差距誰吸收中右吸收還是跟過去的價格一樣"},{"start":9556.21,"end":9574.939,"text":"現在乙烯的價格都比戰前要漲嘛我知道漲嘛那是它漲嘛所以這個部分是誰吸收因為你提供給五千噸的平價乙烯給所有的廠商嘛來解決我們現在價格是誰吸收 差價他去做那個塑膠粒的部分他不漲啊"},{"start":9583.812,"end":9588.056,"text":"沒關係 我接下來問通膨的問題 我想問一下經濟部跟國發會剛剛中國董事長也說過了 我們目前油價要三到六個月才恢復中東的局勢 談談停停 談談停停我們當然希望短期能夠恢復 但這都不是我們能夠掌握的"},{"start":9604.951,"end":9626.582,"text":"但是主席長我也要提醒主席長剛剛好幾位委員問說這個到底通膨1.8合不合理我們當然希望是維持在2底下但是很多東西一漲上去就回不來了我從來沒有聽到滷肉飯或大腸麵線一碗漲上去5塊之後就因為油價平衡不打漲又再回歸回來所以他外資會是要高一點 外資會"},{"start":9628.783,"end":9648.41,"text":"外食會是比較高一點所以很多東西是漲上去就回不來了嘛但是水果蔬菜都回來了這個我知道但是在民眾普遍的感受上就是很多東西漲上去回不來我們薪水不可能因為油價關係什麼都漲我們也跟老闆講說我們要漲薪水嘛所以沒有這個所以我覺得就是說因為"},{"start":9651.491,"end":9652.972,"text":"我們現在是我們用幾個工具包括我們現在的貨物稅調整貨物稅或者油電的目前的動漲那中長期我們國發會的中長期的政策到底是什麼還有沒有什麼其他的工具"},{"start":9666.716,"end":9682.64,"text":"因為九月份之後我不知道我們還會不會持續的動漲這個當然是政府的決定我也都尊重但是我們還有什麼其他的工具去處理抑制通膨的問題如果是持續的油價一直漲中東局勢沒有短時間獲得解決的話後續怎麼做處理"},{"start":9685.362,"end":9707.023,"text":"我們研判目前的全球燃油市場如果不是中東戰爭的話是功過於求包括美國已經成為燃油的主要出口國所以我們認為中東這個戰爭應該是一個一段時間短期性的所以我們現在的措施基本上就像委員所說的如果一旦物價有僵固性一旦漲上去就很難回來"},{"start":9707.563,"end":9735.924,"text":"所以我們現在短期的策略就是你們現在都預估它是短期性的沒有人知道我們都希望它是短期的但是沒有人會預估我們都不知道下一刻會發生什麼事情所以我覺得你目前還是沒有回應到我們希望看到政府有各式各樣因應的措施而且很多東西三到六個月包括董事長也回應說能源的供應鏈需要三到六個月才能夠回復"},{"start":9737.345,"end":9755.444,"text":"如果到第二季末的時候中東局勢還沒有獲得解決的話那到三到六個月再往上加三到六個月才能恢復那就到年底囉就台灣來說我們如果說影響油價的話一個是我們大宗商品跟石油跟天然氣是依靠進口的那這個是會由國際市場來決定"},{"start":9757.546,"end":9766.135,"text":"所以我剛講的就是我們目前除了油電停漲之外我們還有貨物稅目前減50%包括像韓國有發油價的支援金等等我的問題是我們中長期還有什麼樣的手段"},{"start":9780.069,"end":9806.276,"text":"就是控制我們CPI維持在這樣1.8或者2.0以下我想外在的國際的原油 油氣跟大宗商品不是我們可以過程由國際市場來決定那我們基本上我們會包括用央行的貨幣政策或者是我們的一些關稅的減免的相關措施我們儘量可以用我們的政策工具把外在的這些價格的阻斷在可以減輕對國內的"},{"start":9808.237,"end":9834.171,"text":"那至於國內的話我覺得影響比較大的是我們的譬如說蔬菜還有一些水果或者是一些我們一些農產品的價格那我想農業部也會有相關的這些產銷工具你還是沒有回答到我的問題這些工具我都清楚還有什麼樣特別的手段來中長期來去做處理譬如說韓國它發油價的支援金等等我們現在說我們用凍漲"},{"start":9835.551,"end":9858.606,"text":"韓國是用油價的支援金那我們第二季第三季如果狀況不好通膨又一直往上的話你有什麼樣特別的手段其實其實動漲其實剛剛的動漲是由國營事業來吸收政府預算來撥補跟韓國他直接補貼到民眾其實是異曲同工只是用不同的途徑我知道所以我才問說那有沒有可能如果九月份我們"},{"start":9859.326,"end":9879.575,"text":"如果要讓他講的話那會不會用類似像油價資源金來去做後續的取代式我想聽到你做不同的答覆我想我們到時候會再考慮大概兩者的措施哪一個利弊得失對台灣的經濟是比較好的所以不排除類似像韓國的油價資源金等等也可以是考慮的範圍我一直覺得我們台灣應該不會到需要用韓國的"},{"start":9882.756,"end":9891.621,"text":"我當然希望情勢不要那麼糟糕但是我覺得各式各樣手段我覺得政府都應該做好積極的準備以上是我今天的質詢 謝謝接下來請羅明財委員"},{"start":9916.724,"end":9943.624,"text":"主席各位很出列的習慣員主席柯某請你剛剛的質詢都上來好了好再一次啦好 謝謝因為這種最近大家都很關心嘛首先就是問一下是國安會副主委啦我剛剛聽你講的有幾個地方好像還蠻精彩的"},{"start":9944.409,"end":9955.817,"text":"我想請問一下高副主委還有以及周報相關的官員現在就是萬物飆漲那請問副主委那現在有什麼美漲"},{"start":9958.343,"end":9984.112,"text":"我覺得因為這個是世界各國都面對的問題因為石原油跟天然氣是所有產品生產的重要的原物料之一那它當然它價格上漲一定會導致幾乎所有產品都會影響到它的所以都一直漲那不見得因為就台灣來說其實我們採取的"},{"start":9986.633,"end":10006.064,"text":"那個油價的這個雙平穩的制度包括我們亞林最低價我們設法把外在的衝擊儘量就是減輕對國內相關的油氣價格的一些漲幅的變動其實我是一個簡單的問題因為在民間如果年輕人對答講話A跟B講說哇 現在外物飆漲B會回答就是說有一個東西沒漲"},{"start":10016.991,"end":10038.53,"text":"你猜猜看是什麼兩個字叫做薪水所以這個民間的新生你剛講那麼多我們在聽啊而且你長你也可以講啊台積電也長啊台積電長我覺得是你也很開心嘛去年台積電的那個腳褲這個是多少"},{"start":10041.435,"end":10056.093,"text":"大概兩三百億台積電放到現在已經漲到快兩千塊了會不會賣?基本上台積電是我們國泊基金的核心持股不會釋出一張都不會賣"},{"start":10059.93,"end":10086.789,"text":"基本上我們最近幾年都一張都沒有賣那明年會不會賣?今年會不會賣?我們沒有,我們短期沒有釋出的計畫短期是指三天還是五天?近期近期是指一個月還是兩個月?我覺得我們的事股我們有國發經濟有事股的政策跟原則其實為什麼高的時候你們不要事股咧?"},{"start":10088.101,"end":10104.472,"text":"我覺得台積電是台灣的在半導體裡面因為非常重要的一個廠商然後半導體也是台灣在全球的供應鏈裡面占有非常關鍵的地位好 2000塊嘛 你的成本是多少"},{"start":10106.901,"end":10129.551,"text":"應該現在如果加上配股配息應該是幾乎零成本零成本哇 你看這塊多肥啊這樣子喔國家有難的時候年輕人現在很辛苦萬屋飆漲口袋裡沒什麼錢上次普發現金一萬你有沒有領到我想每個人都有領到大概百分之九十八現場有沒有人沒領到請舉手"},{"start":10131.431,"end":10152.556,"text":"全部都領了啦這個政策很好大家都領了很開心所以現在遇到的問題就是石油飆漲影響到萬物起漲那本席有提一個案就是像那個韓國現在也在對這個石油的這個幫忙補助"},{"start":10154.816,"end":10171.343,"text":"這個 津貼啦 叫石油津貼我現在已經在提案了齁獲得大多數委員齁 沒 沒有人反對啊我現在就要連署了可是他們就說 錢齁 那怎麼辦咧我大概還是一個就是大概一萬塊左右啦齁"},{"start":10171.883,"end":10183.429,"text":"那理由就是因為萬物飆漲連手搖飲也開始漲滷肉飯雞腿飯蜘蛛餐你有沒有去吃蜘蛛餐我那天去他說親愛的顧客從即日開始每樣都漲十塊錢"},{"start":10189.494,"end":10204.414,"text":"所以因為這個石油漲錯不在民眾所以我們要幫助民眾特別是幫助年輕人所以再來一次今年就是石油津貼每一個人石油津貼一萬塊你贊不贊成"},{"start":10207.497,"end":10232.455,"text":"我想要跟委員報告我們今年的第一季的CPI只有1.23其實遠較於我們預估的1.38為低所以我想要糾正一次台灣並不是萬物齊掌這個事實我從CPI當然我覺得委員你說的外食費這一塊的確是比我們的CPI來得高可是我記得3月也降到3%以下了對不對"},{"start":10236.738,"end":10252.067,"text":"所以的確我們有一些民眾的那些小吃某個程度上的反應不見得是這次的美伊戰爭包括我們其實我們台灣有某個程度確保還有一些那個我都知道你要講就是有些都沒講"},{"start":10256.289,"end":10283.477,"text":"但是現在民眾的反應就是那麼強烈啦齁那第二個我要另外這個時間關係我要問你的是就是說你剛講台積電兩千塊你們不會賣嘛短期不會賣那請問現在兩千塊你會不會買呃 基本上我們是我們股票信託我們是不能進出的不是 你會不會再買啦就是說我以我現在以政務官的我們是沒有辦法購買單一的這些股票所以你不會再買台積電了"},{"start":10285.693,"end":10307.179,"text":"就是 我想 我不能買 目前我無法好 你不能買 就是不買就對了那你現在那個台積電部門你手上的持股價值總共多少市值 手上6.5%嘛你這樣算起來 你們手上持有的台積電市值是多少好幾兆吧好幾兆 別找啊 你說幾兆啊回答你 你在跑啊幾兆五萬幾千"},{"start":10311.809,"end":10323.177,"text":"就是我們現在有6.5%的台積電的持股市值多少我想我要查一下你要查 趕快查一下你旁邊查完你再給個回答數字下一位請經濟部那未來的 你是次長那次長 我一直想說你是快升部長了做得好就有機會升部長那現在萬物起漲 電會不會漲"},{"start":10341.331,"end":10350.622,"text":"我們在3月27號電價審議委員會已經決議今年上半年的電價不調整上半年不調整 那就7月開始就會調了啊"},{"start":10351.636,"end":10362.424,"text":"根據電價審議委員的一個判斷跟他的評估這些狀況都是短期的現象的話因為油價上上下下很快水會不會漲我們現在沒有這個計畫水不會漲油電水氣天然氣漲了沒"},{"start":10372.652,"end":10399.918,"text":"天然氣的話我們每個月檢討因為天然氣的一個定價是針對過去瓦斯桶小吃店都是醬片 鴿子LPG我們已經宣布沒有調整現在交都不好交因為每個人都想說哇 那都很忙啊 交不到工送啊以前要送 哇 A不送 B就送現在又有點就是啊 我沒營啦 沒營啦"},{"start":10402,"end":10418.492,"text":"會不會有這樣的情況出現統創法師那夠用就好啦事實上你家裡面儲存的太多事實上也造成一些管理上面或是安全上物價你們還是要看住啦好不好謝謝另外請那個央行好了"},{"start":10420.97,"end":10438.907,"text":"副總裁你好我很好現在那個全世界有經過伊朗現在都說要收那個虛擬貨幣比特幣央行現在計畫推出了央行的數字貨幣你們以後最大的一顆是價值大概多少錢"},{"start":10440.992,"end":10452.519,"text":"報告委員我們目前只是在研議我們並沒有要我現在就在研議研議的時候今年沒推出就是下半年下半年不推出就明年明年你說還沒好那後年請問你那個比特幣現在一顆多少錢"},{"start":10461.434,"end":10483.701,"text":"我印象中應該是六七萬了吧六七萬 之前漲到十二萬那以後推出了央行的數字貨幣最大的一顆要價值大概多少錢報告委員因為這個我們內部我們並沒有對外公布所以我也不方便你對外不要公布啊 你在立法院公布就好了"},{"start":10485.029,"end":10502.445,"text":"因為我們現在只是在研議我們並沒有對外研議中最大顆一顆大概是價值多少錢我們那個計價的定位其實是要思考的我們目前政府在推動的是穩定幣的問題現在有四家金通準備要介入虛擬貨幣交易所"},{"start":10512.154,"end":10532.848,"text":"那是虛擬貨幣交易但是跟穩定幣還是有一點距離你虛擬貨幣交易所你就要有東西啊如果央行推出的話就很多人會下去買啊而且你如果央行趕快推出了以後你再像中東這個事以後就用中華民國央行發行的數字貨幣大家都願意接受啊"},{"start":10533.973,"end":10556.907,"text":"包括我也因為新台幣不是一個因為現在有人不接受美金啊那你要現在台幣越來越強啊而且台幣我們現在那個上個月就是出口的部分也成長很多啊表示台灣越來越強啊而且兩岸政習會之後也變得比較感覺和平多啊兩岸只要和平那台灣"},{"start":10558.379,"end":10571.585,"text":"那個中華民國發的央行的數字貨幣那一顆可能都會超過比特幣啊趕快發好不好謝謝委員的指教好 現在那個主計處主委長剛剛本席講到那個就是現在民眾苦哈哈啦你來算一下"},{"start":10585.543,"end":10599.809,"text":"如果每一個人來發一萬塊的石油津貼韓國瑜發了發一萬塊的石油津貼大概要準備多少錢就跟現金一樣2360億再一次 拜託"},{"start":10607.486,"end":10624.213,"text":"今年還沒發啊 今年很多人還沒收到啊我們先從動漲開始動漲如何 這樣就免得再發一些發放的成本你看看喔 上次那個不怕現金一萬塊對整個經濟的發展有了多少的幫助"},{"start":10627.742,"end":10655.421,"text":"2360億整個差不多有乘數效應啊出去那個外面那個我看一下小吃攤啊什麼小朋友那個一點多0.415好了你就0.415再發一次就有0.415啊努力想一下啦我現在已經開始在連署了截至目前還沒有人反對的"},{"start":10657.387,"end":10667.486,"text":"大家都贊成 所以你們要準備一下 2000多也不多是不是很多嗎這個金額會不會很大很大 那個1.25兆大不大"},{"start":10670.926,"end":10687.639,"text":"1.25兆是國防它是我們的一個天頓那對我們來講是多重要所以我上次又問那個國防部長我說你不要說1.25兆很重要你講3兆5兆你如果掛保證我們就叫美國好大賣兆啊把我們保好掉啊所以你說那個天頓1.25兆到底有沒有效"},{"start":10697.23,"end":10722.951,"text":"不是 這個要機器來了 用了才知道 有沒有很像這我們現在來講 好啦 我要回到今天啦就是那個一萬塊每一個人的石油津貼你那邊也開始同步進行一下因為我們上次發過了這一次發的成本就會很低因為有一次經驗嘛一而再 第二次來的話就會更自在 好不好 謝謝"},{"start":10725.792,"end":10743.765,"text":"謝謝羅秘財委員的質詢油價支援金的部分在下半年有沒有可能發我覺得無論是1.25兆的國防預算跟油價支援金對民眾來說兩個都很重要所以這都是我們行政院可以主計總處這邊可以列入思考的範圍好 接下來請李昆成委員 謝謝"},{"start":10752.608,"end":10755.783,"text":"好 謝謝主席那我們請主席講"},{"start":10762.438,"end":10772.387,"text":"委員好主席長好我們在去年10月的時候有通過這個強化經濟社會及民生國安認証特別預算那這個預算應該是有這個5,447億那這個預算通過之後呢那其實我們有預留200億253億是屬於一個彈性的額度嘛對不對那我現在就請教一下這個主席長"},{"start":10789.703,"end":10809.183,"text":"因為現在我們面對中東戰事我們政府其實有很多處理的機制在有油價雙環漲的機制就是我們有亞林最低價 油價平穩措施中油目前也吸收了大概107億左右我們還有稅負的減增"},{"start":10810.444,"end":10837.074,"text":"稅負減徵包含這個我們的汽柴油的貨物稅啊關鍵原物料的這個賦稅啊還有這個桶裝瓦斯的貨物稅減徵然後還有民生的這一個這個價格也動漲比如說我們的這個電價還有這一個天然氣等等還有包含這個公共運輸的票價等等那我是想請教就是說因為我們這一個預算是這個韌性特別預算那這次遇到這個中東三十這個"},{"start":10838.423,"end":10852.514,"text":"你說253,257億,是不是?253253,談心運用的,那可以運用到這次的中東戰事嗎?比如說受到影響的各行各業,那我剛才講了這麼多政府的這些補貼的措施"},{"start":10853.839,"end":10870.307,"text":"我這個案子我也之前就因為這253可不可以用這個我們就做討論過然後我們也跟部會討論討論它裡面的一些項目可不可以容納他說不行所以如果說這一些項目要放進去那必須辦理"},{"start":10871.988,"end":10875.312,"text":"這個條例的一個修正那條例修正之後呢我們再把這253億辦理追加預算因為這253億並沒有在預算裡面所以你要用也是要再透列預算"},{"start":10886.184,"end":10889.986,"text":"這253億不是就在我們這個整個特別預算裡面沒有他就沒有邊內預算他5,770他條例5,770但是邊內預算只邊內5,447億所以253億是沒有邊內預算的所以這就是剩餘但是你如果要用還要再邊內預算第二個還必須條例裡面有這相關的內容才可以這樣"},{"start":10910.896,"end":10938.77,"text":"所以就是說我們現在已經通過了這個預算裡面如果我剛才講的那些補貼措施也沒辦法用到就對了因為我們這次是應付美國的關稅嘛然後這次是運動中東的戰事嘛沒有辦法用目前只有那個衛福部表示他兩百億的部分可以其他單位大部分都不行尤其是經濟部我們請他去過濾他說這個不行所以必須要另外修改條例或者是辦追加減預算"},{"start":10940.131,"end":10962.463,"text":"好 那我再請問一下這個主席長那我剛才講了這麼多政府的一些補貼的措施你有沒有想過到下半年度這些預算因為這個還是屬於這個政府的預算嘛你不管是董事長 那董事長你可能這個補貼最後還是要編預算嘛比如說終於他也編了這個這個增資預算等等你有沒有算過說這些預算大概需要多少錢有沒有 有沒有一個統計"},{"start":10967.386,"end":10983.525,"text":"我們目前就是請各單位統計如果繼續延長這樣子的話大概是他們提出需求是1292億那裡面有包括經濟部、中油公司的741億、能源署的"},{"start":10985.747,"end":10993.472,"text":"還有台電公司的300億這些等等包括交通部85億、農業部56億這些等那加起來遠遠超過我們剛剛所說的不夠不夠所以我們如果要的話就必須第一個再弄一個特別條例然後再"},{"start":11006.379,"end":11033.079,"text":"辦一個特別的預算針對這一個部分來做一個辦理一個預算的一個部分條例通過之後我們就辦理預算然後第二個再籌措裁員所以我剛好就是要問主席講這件事情因為我們因應這個美國關稅我們有一個特別預算特別條例嘛五千多億嘛那現在因應中東戰事那我們剛剛政府也做了這麼多穩定物價或是補貼民生的一些這些措施那當然需要錢"},{"start":11033.94,"end":11058.738,"text":"那你剛才算過說大概需要快將近一千三百億那所以說是不是我們接下來為了因應中東戰事那我們是不是也提出類似這一種特別條例然後再編一個特別運算因為各行各業都受到影響啊是所以這個部門請願你來做財事好不好跟業務單位就是相關的部門提出需求然後由行政院來做財事所以"},{"start":11059.827,"end":11088.872,"text":"主計長你認為說有這個需要跟這個必須性就是說提出這一個特別條例然後需要提出這樣或者是說我們直接辦追加預算直接辦追加預算好那辦追加預算總預算也還沒通過啊對追加預算就是卡在就是說總預算沒有通過所以我們才會說那是用還是用特別條例總預算就沒有通過總預算沒有通過你怎麼辦追加預算所以難度就在這裡是好"},{"start":11089.372,"end":11114.743,"text":"那看起來就是說這個總預算不知道啦那可是就是說至少在總計在主席長的想法裡面也希望說因應這次的重重預算是我們再編一個特別條例然後編一個特別預算至少剛剛各部會會籍過來大概也需要一千三百億左右是好那我接下來再請教一下主席長請回我選這個經濟部經濟部今天是次長來嘛來次長好來謝謝"},{"start":11122.69,"end":11132.716,"text":"你們有一個塑膠袋的評價專案嘛那大家也很關心就是說我們希望每個月增加大概12.5億個塑膠袋所以說這個計畫現在已經開始做了嗎?"},{"start":11137.629,"end":11156.649,"text":"已經開始做了,中油在3月31號釋清開爐生產而4月10號也把生產的這個乙烯送到下游的台塑公司因為台塑公司在生產塑膠粒,這些都已經在做了那所以這個12.5億個塑膠袋是哪時候會出來?"},{"start":11159.551,"end":11179.344,"text":"大概這禮拜因為他還要做品管混裝還有包裝這個部分基本上還沒出來之前事實上我們的產發署已經媒合了差不多是20家的廠商針對於現有的所謂的他掌握到的塑膠力的部分已經在加量在生產那次長"},{"start":11180.886,"end":11204.785,"text":"這個請教一下因為現在媒體有質疑說這個塑膠袋就算你們做出來有增加12.5億那這個售價也會漲大概三成左右沒有我們透過我們經濟部的協調包括台塑公司以及上游的乙烯的供應者中游公司我們是用平價的專案所以塑膠袋也不會漲"},{"start":11206.457,"end":11223.553,"text":"現在的話我們用評價的專案來做供應所以這個跟現在市面上所大家謠傳的現在或是實質上面的那個實質上的漲幅是有很大的差距的這是一個評價那上游原料漲當然中游也有吸收啦"},{"start":11224.974,"end":11248.002,"text":"因為你如果原來有漲然後你現在送給中油請台塑、台聚去做中油吸收最主要的是最上游的原油包括氫油的這些進口重點就在於說塑膠袋不會漲就對了這個部分我們用評價的方式來供應因為契約的內容我們有看到是屬於那第二個就是買得到塑膠袋了"},{"start":11249.485,"end":11272.738,"text":"可以買得到,那買不到的話我們所謂商發署,事實上他有一個群組或是電話都訪談大概4月1號商發署就針對於全國350個商圈逐一的去訪視啊那若是大家也因為有些存貨不足啊或是說有一些不足的狀況我們商發署很快的透過這些平台來補足貨源"},{"start":11273.979,"end":11291.969,"text":"好 就是要求經濟部第一個 塑膠袋不要漲價然後能夠供應給我們的這一個不管你是攤商或是說你是在這個店家等等塑膠袋不要缺那第二個 塑膠袋也不要漲價不要漲價不要缺 這經濟部能做到嗎"},{"start":11292.919,"end":11313.809,"text":"我們現在透過專案的增產的五千噸的這個部分用平價了那至於一般的這個塑膠袋它各個生產商很多這個部分我們還是會透過包括聯合的茶器的這個小組來去促進這個所謂你剛剛所謂的這個塑膠袋的這個穩定措施"},{"start":11314.97,"end":11317.653,"text":"剛剛委員也有提到 因應油價高漲我們就是採中油吸收的方式"},{"start":11325.899,"end":11351.877,"text":"那韓國它是編了這個6.1兆韓元大概1356億的這個高油價受害資源金不過它這個是特別針對這個低收入戶啦它還有分這個首都圈非首都圈的區別等等那反正它不是全部啦它就是針對這個低收入戶然後次長您的說法就是說因為我們現在有亞聯最低價跟專案平穩的這個機制所以"},{"start":11352.979,"end":11356.071,"text":"這個不用韓國這一套我們現在這個機制就可以處理好就對了"},{"start":11356.823,"end":11385.479,"text":"在經濟部的立場是促進能源的進口的數量的穩定還有價格的這個平穩那過去的幾週我們都做到這一些那以目前為止的話綜合公司在油品的吸收107.3億元左右那我們持續的透過這些的機制來維持這個油價的一個穩定那除此之外的話事實上包括剛剛委員也提到了貨物稅的減徵甚至是液化石油器"},{"start":11385.939,"end":11389.542,"text":"我最後再問一個問題我請這個國發會我們的高副主委我簡短的問副主委有知道這個韓國的這個政策嗎是那國發會的評估勒"},{"start":11407.05,"end":11430.178,"text":"我覺得韓國的政策跟我們的政策事實上是不同的approach那我們先把國際油價油氣價格的上漲我們先用我們中油吸收的方式來阻斷所以他其實到後面的對民生物價的影響其實是相對的微輕的從我們第一季的CPI可以看出來我們只有1.23原本有1.3百來高"},{"start":11432.178,"end":11457.807,"text":"所以那他們呢 事實上他們在油價的吸收裡面他幾乎就是相對來輕微所以他用後面來補貼的方式來做所以我覺得因為物價有一個向下的僵固性我們希望從前頭阻斷了以後物價不會上來不要讓物價上來以後我們再用錢去補貼那些受害物價受害的一些群體跟群眾"},{"start":11459.988,"end":11460.308,"text":"先請主席長"},{"start":11490.015,"end":11498.103,"text":"委員好書記長早書記長我想我今天還是要跟你討論一個國道基金的一個議題我想上次來辦公室也跟你請教過是"},{"start":11499.929,"end":11514.423,"text":"我想主席講國道基金主要的用途就是在於高速公路的養護還有國道的建設我想我們因應建設國道7號還有國一洋頭段的拓寬國一甲等陸續現在都要啟動迎來了3499億這樣龐大的一個支出"},{"start":11520.831,"end":11537.802,"text":"立法院的預算中心對115年的預算評估指出營運資金短缺在擴大所以首先我要問主席講國道基金的主要來源是什麼國道基金來自於哪裡"},{"start":11538.71,"end":11561.849,"text":"他有一些罰款的一些收入罰款還有我們政府循序依預算程序也有撥補還有國道車輛增收的通行費的收入還有汽車燃料費使用的費用也有分配於國道公路建設之用"},{"start":11562.97,"end":11580.941,"text":"還有服務性的設施有關的收入區段徵收等等還有知習收入、受證收入其他有關收入我們法定的收入大概這幾個但是剛才主席想提到一個很重要的你說有罰款的收入"},{"start":11582.362,"end":11601.455,"text":"所以我們現在就很不解啊這個依照我們道路交通處交通違規罰款收入分配及運用辦法國道警察局似乎沒有獲得這個罰款的收入以協助該局支應該局執法的相關費用但是他有國庫他有撥補啊"},{"start":11608.247,"end":11622.695,"text":"國庫警政署是有撥補給他相關的一些設備的費用內政部警政署如果說你是從有保款收入直接去抽那國庫就不用撥補但是國道基金是有國庫去撥補"},{"start":11624.616,"end":11649.254,"text":"是所以他會有國庫撥補給他現在我的意思是說你有沒有聽懂我的意思就是說你國道基金裡面有沒有配就是讓我們這些辛苦的第一線執勤的這些國道檢察局這些同仁或者國道檢察局可以獲得一些我們罰款的一個補助去作為他們執勤的一個"},{"start":11650.914,"end":11675.28,"text":"購買設備啦或者科技設備啦或者他是這個一些安全的一個保障的一個相關的訓練費用有沒有給他們啦辛苦執勤那個錢都沒捐到那個部分他是透過公務部分來編列並不是說從這個基金來編列那你如果要從基金來編列以後我就是在公務預算的部分我就不編列就是這樣子"},{"start":11676.86,"end":11702.981,"text":"其實這問題我很了解警政署撥補給國道檢察局的相關公務的預算它是並沒有包含我剛才講的他們在執行去取締這些違規者這些相關的罰款過去是有一定的比例會給他去採買一些他們必須要的裝備"},{"start":11704.912,"end":11717.868,"text":"以及訓練的費用來加強他們安全的保障最近有很多我們看到公務警察發生事故在國道執行發生事故有編練 編在哪裡"},{"start":11719.346,"end":11737.865,"text":"不是我現在跟委員報告就是說他這一個國道基金他是專款讓他專用但是公務預算的部分他只要是國道警察方面設備啦或者其他相關方面這個部分我們都有編列預算來做支應那委員您如果關心這個部分將來我們要加強來"},{"start":11740.948,"end":11758.203,"text":"因為等於是說罰款它是進公庫然後公庫裡面我們在遇上編列的一個情形以用這樣的一個情形來編列那如果說警察人員在國道方面這一個部分要加強的部分那他們提出需求我們再來做加強會加強嗎其實我想這個過去也開過好幾次會"},{"start":11763.487,"end":11781.565,"text":"交通部的意見 他說國道基金為專款專用性質無法支應本局經費國道執法為內政部的職權與國道基金業務支出性質不同所以他不同意說給國道檢察局一些相關的補助"},{"start":11784.655,"end":11810.136,"text":"交通部高速公路局他也說國道基金僅能用於國道興建維護安全管理及設施改善無法配合用於國道執法他的意見是這樣不能給你補助給你相關執法的一些比如我要買科技執法相關的一些設備他說我這國道基金不能給你國道公路總局這樣講"},{"start":11814.219,"end":11841.997,"text":"主計總署您的意見是講說國道執法與國道基金設置的目的未符所以兩個設置目的未符不予以國道基金致應所以我們現在就是要想辦法這些人也那麼辛苦這些錢都是他們去執勤他們冒著生命的危險去在高速公路執勤這比一般我們在公路上執勤更危險"},{"start":11843.599,"end":11862.074,"text":"所以這個錢到底如何來讓他們可以獲得更多安全的設備以及讓他們有更多的錢去教育訓練讓他們執行更安全我想我在意的是這個所以你要給他相關的一些錢去採買去做這些事"},{"start":11865.837,"end":11888.313,"text":"所以主席總副我希望你就是能夠來支持他們所以我們現在了解 我現在了解 我講一個法條給主席總副來參考就是說是不是可以研擬我們依照交通作業基金收支保管及任用辦法第十一條第二款第七目其他有關支出的規定"},{"start":11889.614,"end":11912.066,"text":"他有一個第七目有一個其他有關支出的規定來補助國道警察局執行的相關業務的一個費用由他們來申請然後你們依照這個規定由國道基金來這個去補助給他可不可以這樣啦就不要修法就透過這樣的一個目的呢我想交通部應該會支持啊"},{"start":11913.137,"end":11939.097,"text":"不是 這不是我能夠做決定 這交通部要去做決定就是說他是不是要修正萎縮他除了國道基金 除了建設基金之外是不是其他可以有一些的錢來做那個警察這些的一個裝備的一個開放這些的支出那我們也樂見其成所以這個部分我們是不是請交通部來做檢討"},{"start":11940.638,"end":11964.067,"text":"檢討結果如果可以那這個部分將來要提撥百分比多少這是他們去提撥如果不行我們將來就還是從公務預算來做依註依註這樣這些那個國道的一個相關的設備我想這個總是要研擬一個方案啦我們不能就一直看了那麼多次會但是最後沒有一個結論出來好不好"},{"start":11964.747,"end":11981.978,"text":"我希望主席總書你要支持這個很辛苦啊我們支持這個但是問題是要看交通部整個的一個錯誤結果辛苦執法這些法源他們分不到半毛錢是是是這很不公平啊是謝謝您請回接下來請那個中流的方董事長"},{"start":11990.236,"end":12015.746,"text":"市長上週四月十號你說如果荷姆茲海峽開放中游有一艘游龍裝滿了兩百萬桶的原油兩週航程就可以抵達我們中華民國可供國內半個月的需求量但我們根據上週五的國外媒體報導伊朗又再度封鎖荷姆茲海峽"},{"start":12017.206,"end":12041.153,"text":"這樣看起來這兩百萬桶的原油好像似乎沒有辦法順利的運達我們台灣不知道什麼時候會到當然你也提到中油也有向沙烏地阿拉伯購買原油預計四月中旬裝船完畢航程大約兩週可以抵達台灣也就是說最快要到五月份也可以到達台灣"},{"start":12042.461,"end":12051.989,"text":"所以我想請問你這樣對我們國內油品的供應啊將會有什麼樣的影響是否能夠確保我們國內的油品供應無虞啊"},{"start":12053.94,"end":12081.794,"text":"這兩百萬看起來就不會來了我們在戰前的時候有一艘原油輪它裝滿了油但是停在波斯灣裡面沒辦法從赫姆斯海峽出來當然對於美國跟伊朗停火之後我們也期望這個船能夠經過赫姆斯海峽能夠出來從最新的消息看起來還是要等"},{"start":12083.035,"end":12098.746,"text":"那替代的方案的話呢就是從沙烏地阿拉伯呢它有鋪一條管線拉到這個揚埔就是在鴻海這一側那鴻海這一側能夠裝有這一艘船呢已經在10月12號你是說兩個禮拜能夠到台灣確定嗎"},{"start":12100.487,"end":12123.635,"text":"4月12號已經裝船目前在航行回台灣的途中預估在5月份可以到所以後續的原油船從沙烏地阿拉伯大概如果沒有改變的話都會循這樣一個模式把原油運到台灣我們目前石油的存量到底還能供應多久"},{"start":12124.751,"end":12139.031,"text":"現在7月我們國家來講這存量是90天法定的事實上都存的都是超過100天但是目前中東戰事這樣發生我們看樓價又會一直上漲"},{"start":12140.313,"end":12152.507,"text":"你還是跟沒有戰事一樣就是純油量你說純油量大概90天嘛但是現在看起來戰事一直在好像沒有停的就打一打然後講一講後來還是沒有停戰嘛"},{"start":12156.881,"end":12172.594,"text":"這種情況你以目前來講你可以很誠實的告訴我們目前大概存量還多少我想在量的部分做個說明雖然是中東這個戰事對於中油公司來講我們會尋求其他的油源"},{"start":12173.749,"end":12200.161,"text":"譬如說西非譬如說澳洲譬如說地中海這個區域另外當然很重要就是從美國美國這個原油它還是會佔蠻大的比例市長我想這個中油很辛苦我們都了解我想因為動漲一直在虧損相關的預算相關到底我們石油未來要不要漲我想中油還在撐到底還能撐多久大家也很關心"},{"start":12201.121,"end":12226.726,"text":"我想中國還是要提早做好因應國際情勢做好各種財務分析到底我們油價未來要怎麼走很誠實的跟老百姓講清楚我想這個才比較是一個正確的一個做法好 謝謝我們結束林思敏委員的質詢接下來王世堅王世堅王世堅委員不在接下來請羅志強委員時間四分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":12237.697,"end":12238.181,"text":"現在先請經濟部賴次長"},{"start":12247.083,"end":12275.759,"text":"委員好市長好我今天想要先問一下經濟部上禮拜六我是陪我的助理要參選新北市議員的何元凱掃街結果到市場就有雜貨鋪的商家攤販拉著我陳情了很久你猜猜他陳情什麼市長猜猜看塑膠袋他說塑膠袋環保袋都缺貨"},{"start":12277.216,"end":12293.296,"text":"然後帶我看他們的貨架他指的一個貨架上面裝的都是玩具他說這貨架本來裝的是塑膠袋就環保袋因為沒有 他只好放玩具上去然後客人都跟他抱怨說怎麼會買不到他說沒有辦法解釋啊好的問題來喔"},{"start":12295.51,"end":12315.38,"text":"上個禮拜我也質詢經濟部經濟部說會解決我也相信經濟部會解決結果我自己實際在市場上去看到就有商家來跟我澄清我不知道經濟部這到底發生什麼事情經濟部說會解決但實際上到市場的商家攤販"},{"start":12317.162,"end":12338.202,"text":"他們下游端卻沒有辦法沒有看到所謂塑膠袋之亂疏解仍然缺塑膠袋我不知道次長你覺得這中間是什麼環節出問題啊好謝謝委員的指導那經濟部現在所做的是上游端的原物料包括生產端持續的供料包括擴大生產至於委員掃街的時候碰到的這些的問題啊"},{"start":12340.204,"end":12363.131,"text":"事實上我們部長不但是跟商圈還有市場的一些代表來座談之外我們商發組每天也會透過群組的部分還有包括電話的詢問來去媒合你剛剛所提到的有一些部分的這些商家他可能有一些獲補不到的一個狀況但是整體上面來講的話塑膠袋的生產從"},{"start":12364.731,"end":12377.885,"text":"供給端跟需求端這是沒有問題的那有一些可能會有預期或是過早的一個囤貨但是在這邊就有這個機會跟大家講事實上我們平價的所謂的"},{"start":12379.17,"end":12399.96,"text":"塑膠粒的專案從3月31號開爐到現在4月10號都已經鋪到塑膠袋生產的加工工廠我相信因為預期心理而增加囤貨的狀況可以慢慢的緩解當然我們還要持續去做這些美好的工作"},{"start":12400.697,"end":12424.173,"text":"好 我跟市長說一下因為我如果不是到市場上直接被選民陳情我今天也不會來問這一題啦因為上個禮拜我在質詢的時候你們就跟我講說這問題被解決了嘛你們已經在全部在處理就像你剛剛講的那些所有東西我都肯定能夠去解決 有行動來去紓解你想 你說供給端 這個需求端都沒什麼問題"},{"start":12425.595,"end":12446.352,"text":"囤貨的問題現在也在查,也在抑止可是我要看到的是結果端嘛那很簡單,走個市場就有攤販這樣去反應而且他真的很生氣啊,他覺得對他造成很大的困擾因為每天來買塑膠袋,尤其環保袋的民眾很多啊結果他賣不出去,大家就問說為什麼你買不到"},{"start":12447.873,"end":12462.929,"text":"那他就要一直去應付客人的這個問題所以還是要拜託我們經濟部你所有的一些你的行政的作為然後去解決塑膠袋之亂的作為他的檢驗唯一的標準就是民眾有沒有感覺嘛 對不對"},{"start":12464.386,"end":12491.346,"text":"商家第一線商家是不是真的他的貨源得到疏解這才是最重要的一個檢驗指標所以拜託再加把勁一下不要我們又去市場然後遇到癱瘓又來反應這個問題那我就不知道我到底要不要相信經濟部是積極在處理了請我們經濟部再努力一下好不好我們這個絕對會解決民眾的問題商家還有包括產業的問題一直是來我們經濟部需要努力的我們會持續精進謝謝委員指導好 謝謝"},{"start":12494.15,"end":12496.811,"text":"謝謝接下來請洪孟凱委員主席謝謝麻煩請主計長以及我們中油董事長請方董事長請陳主計長"},{"start":12516.498,"end":12542.98,"text":"主席長 董事長好我想我們在這邊就是共同關心民生的物價以及不要受到衝擊這也是我們朝委為什麼會排案的主要目的那現在中東戰事因為美國跟伊朗的談判又看面臨到破裂那不管怎麼樣大家預期的心理會多延後不知道但目前我們有沒有針對物價的部分有去做一個掌握說不要因為這一波而造成有物價漲價的一個狀況"},{"start":12544.505,"end":12573.705,"text":"是跟委員報告就是我們每個禮拜他都有政府院長召開物價穩定小組然後本身就是有針對那個石油原油還天然氣還有包括電那所以目前就是油價有雙動漲還有一個專案動漲所以導致目前為止我們雖然油價整個是成長百分之七十幾但是我們實際上真正讓他有漲漲來就只有六點多"},{"start":12574.085,"end":12602.311,"text":"是這樣子所以整個三月份的一個物價指數來看三月份才1.2那整個1到3是1.23的一個百分比我們預計的1.38還要低那現在就是說要看四月份那四月份我們就是五月中旬我們會再做評估然後再做一個然後也會因為這樣我們再調整我們整個一個穩定物價的一個措施的一個問題"},{"start":12603.852,"end":12624.932,"text":"主席長我簡單講就是說你剛剛的意思就是說因為現在雖然原油進口的價格確實有漲但是我們用政府吸收的方式不管是中油吸收或是政府吸收那已經吸收了超過百億嘛那我現在能不能再請教說我們有沒有合理的預估如果說真的漲到什麼時間點我們沒有辦法吸收下去確實一定要反映到市場上"},{"start":12626.524,"end":12651.918,"text":"那個臨界點在哪邊所以我們一般我們像我們還是無止境動漲是到九月底為止包括所謂的貨物稅的一個減免包括相關稅捐的一個減免都是到九月底那所以我們每個禮拜都會討論然後整個會再做一個整體的評估所以如果說有什麼變動其實主要是重點是要看中東戰爭的一個戰事的一個情形狀況來做變動"},{"start":12654.639,"end":12668.288,"text":"主席長你還是沒有針對本席的問題回答所以如果說你真正到還是你講的意思是說到九月以前不管中東因為到九月還有四五個月嘛那我現在就是說如果照你剛剛的講法就是九月才動漲漲價才會再做調整"},{"start":12670.689,"end":12685.717,"text":"可是不是啊因為你講的是電啊可是我們現在講的是油啊油的部分有包含是說油包含說塑膠等相關所以這也是國人大家關心嘛那本席現在比較重視的是說到最基層的民眾因為這一些都反映成本"},{"start":12687.092,"end":12705.239,"text":"對 所以到多少的時間點裡面我們都會吸收還是說有一個臨界點就是政府無法吸收或中油無法吸收了有沒有討論過這個部分可能要請中油來回答因為這個部分要看他們中油報告委員 有關油價的部分目前採取的機制就是每週檢討"},{"start":12708.601,"end":12725.371,"text":"所以都沒有討論過本席現在不是在挖陷阱但是本席是要的是超前部署以及了解說政府的決策現在的思考方向就是說我們已經補貼了百億這個是事實對不對從2月28號到現在我們吸收了多少成本"},{"start":12726.538,"end":12753.468,"text":"到整個3月底吸收90億90億嘛 好那如果說因為剛剛開宗明義主席長也講嘛就是說70幾%的這個漲幅然後我們未來如果說持續飆漲原油每桶現在破110塊那如果120、130、140持續上去這不是不可能但本席現在想問的是說到什麼時間點或什麼臨界點中油也認為是說你們沒有辦法了那一定要反映成本"},{"start":12754.501,"end":12781.042,"text":"報告委員我想有幾個關鍵的參數要去做一個綜合的評估第一個我們亞鄰國的國家他們對於汽柴油他們的售價是到什麼樣一個情境第二個對於這個民生物價來講它的衝擊會怎麼樣第三個對中油公司來講我們財務上是能不能夠去吸收可能要好多因素來做一個董事長這就是本席想要問這都本席的前提"},{"start":12782.043,"end":12811.546,"text":"其實本席現在問的問題就是考量這三個前提沒關係也許你我不知道是不是有苦難言或是說怕現在講了之後這個遷移法動全身但是本席很嚴肅嚴正的要提醒就是說中遊應該要思考這一個問題因為這個問題很實際也可能會發生那再來是說影響到民生物價的時候我們有沒有相關檢討因為本席甚至跟要求是說鄰近國家現在可能也要去觀察"},{"start":12811.946,"end":12832.422,"text":"有沒有因為這一波中東戰事而造成物價上漲調整的狀況要因應那真的最後為什麼本席這樣講因為主計長我還是要強調在財政委員會很著名的一個詢答就是我們有委員問主計長說到底歐阿米爽一碗多少錢結果主計長不知道還在講說20塊啊"},{"start":12833.743,"end":12853.851,"text":"那我不希望主計處也好或說我們相關單位是不死人間煙火所以本席才會提出說如果說這一波中東戰事而可能會造成物價上漲這個是全面的大事要提早因應而中油的部分因為我們已經看到航空業也已經在四月的時候調漲"},{"start":12854.591,"end":12879.517,"text":"票價嘛雖然他講的是說燃油費增加但是航空業的調漲是事實啊甚至人家講說一張飛機票這個要多五六千塊三四千塊那這都是事實所以已經用油大宗的航空業運輸業已經都在調漲了那我們不要因此而連帶的變成是民生的一個物價因為漲了回不去這才是關鍵"},{"start":12880.933,"end":12896.48,"text":"好 我希望真的是隨時都要關注然後還有就是每個月檢討也要拿出具體的辦法每個禮拜都檢討每個禮拜都檢討也要拿出具體的辦法跟因應不要讓委員認為是說我們在這邊問不到答案或是說你們又重複把前提講出來"},{"start":12897.677,"end":12911.566,"text":"答案要有好不好我們會持續關注也希望大家一起努力感謝好謝謝洪孟凱委員的質詢每個禮拜都檢討那後續怎麼去解決也希望組長可以提供給本委員會好接下來請鍾嘉斌委員"},{"start":12923.823,"end":12939.011,"text":"主席、在訪委員、先進、列席的政府機關首長、官員、會長、工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生這聲音比較大一點好,有請我們主計總署陳主計長、國發會高副主委、經濟部賴次長以及衛福部的林次長"},{"start":12940.953,"end":12966.403,"text":"委員好這個主席長好副主委兩位次長好我今天建供應鏈數據庫因材質量防炒作非常實習的網路流量分配跟使用順位來往下一頁其實就在上週我就質詢了經濟部長跟農業部長還包括了林次長加速改革重要物資的供應鏈現在人家說荷姆茲重啟難解燃煤之急那台灣準備好了嗎"},{"start":12966.923,"end":12986.569,"text":"是不是我們要建立一個跨部會的重要物資供應鏈的總點檢機制呢我那時候問的時候我說是不是可以就全國的物流業競銷或的資料服務什麼財稅資料呢建立一個競銷或數據資料庫部長比較謹慎他說這個要考慮到我們有沒有營業秘密但是我想請教一下來往下看這四位"},{"start":12987.689,"end":13012.605,"text":"這個跨部會盤點因材質量譬如說來請問林次長基層藥局拿不到包材你剛也說了醫材短缺那我請教一下你認為這幾個資材包材醫材哪一材比較重要沒有 報告委員我們在這個行政院所主持的品義物價還有因應中東的這個案子裡面其實長官有才識就是說希望請經濟部優先來供應醫材因為這個部分是就好謝謝"},{"start":13013.345,"end":13040.003,"text":"大家同意嗎 可以 那次長請回來 我們看一下其他三位我們的糧食如果短缺的話 老弱病障然後呢 在第二順位呢 軍營醫護農還有再來呢 才是糧食配給如果是電力的話 國防軍是優先 緊急料其實是還是基礎關鍵建設如果是暫時的物資 先軍需 再供需 再民需農業部在這次遇到的塑膠材料呢 他們有資材經濟部有包材 衛部有醫材 剛剛邱先生已經講了接下來請一下經濟部次長來 次長 下一頁"},{"start":13043.725,"end":13069.629,"text":"台灣哪些原物料高度洋溫進口?有沒有石化電燃氣?黃曉玉?鋼鐵原料?稀土金屬?原油煤炭?對不對?那這些狀況我問過你們部長我們政府有沒有掌握它的供銷的情況?那部長說這個要去評估來往下看但是資源有效你們是不是同意都要建立優先的順序譬如說緊急狀況原物料上漲短或缺到"},{"start":13070.609,"end":13096.356,"text":"或缺掉民眾的搶購那如果像以西部文我們有衣裁、有織裁、有包裁、有件裁這些可能都比塑膠的包裝提帶來的重要你同不同意同意對 可是呢 民眾直接感受到的我去菜市場沒有塑膠落架啦可是呢 其實這些才是我們政府啊不是只看到民眾感受的這些淺藏的才是我們要關注的 對不對很好 謝謝來 我們現在請下主計長來"},{"start":13098.917,"end":13116.506,"text":"主計長這邊我們看一下我們現在主計的統計是事後統計嘛我們統計需求嘛但是有沒有可能事前預估就剛剛講的那些我們需要洋外進口的它的必須性它的優先順位然後去決定配額主計總署有這樣的想法嗎這個部分不是你們的事情是國發會吧是國發會很好來國發會的"},{"start":13125.287,"end":13150.77,"text":"副主委舌頭都吐出來了來我們看一下來既然點名國發會來問國發會國發會來往下一題那個副主委在27年前的九一震災的時候呢沒有實施交通管制跟調波車道結果呢那時候啊很多的物資就原車把高速公路塞住了結果真正的工程搶救上不了高速公路這個你還有印象嗎還是那時候年紀輕年紀還小不記得了"},{"start":13152.337,"end":13173.564,"text":"所以後來我們的災防法我們都訂了7條27條跟30條在緊急狀況之下呢我們的交通管制跟很多的公共道路空間國家會自行優先指配對不對 副主委是的你同意這樣嗎那除了交通的運輸之外我們來看一下隔壁啦歐洲的烏克蘭啦烏克蘭"},{"start":13174.964,"end":13198.592,"text":"烏克蘭在戰時的時候,他網路的營運呢?貿易戰爭,他收到什麼?DDOS的攻擊他的機體的來摧毀,有干擾衛星,有電力停工於是他開源改用新鏈,設置一道國外他修復,趕快修復,建立備援跟節點同時他也管制了,除了新鏈的白名單之外其他的社群啊,聊天的啦,通通不要讓他上去使用你同意嗎?"},{"start":13200.192,"end":13221.803,"text":"我同意你同意,所以我們往下看非常時期網路流量的分配跟設施從使用觀念上要管定所以金管會曾經有一個金融資安任性發展藍圖所謂的兵推那時候金融業暫時兵推台灣的資安大會也曾經推動一個,這是民間辦的他說要對什麼基礎關鍵設施的維運、數位海峽、資訊安全、去中心化等等這麼多請問國發會"},{"start":13224.224,"end":13240.635,"text":"你們有沒有包括這些除了道路交通的使用的優先順位之外包括網路跟其他的基礎關鍵設施的使用你們也去訂定一個流量跟優先順位我想這個應該不是國發會的主管很好 我都沒有在場的人"},{"start":13248.371,"end":13263.058,"text":"主席總署 針對非常時期我國高度仰賴進口的原物料一期必須性做事前的預估 必要的用量推估一個月給一個書面報告可以嗎這是主席總署啊 主席長可以嗎"},{"start":13266.716,"end":13294.023,"text":"你們是統計嘛統計要做積極的統計不要做事後的統計而已但是問題是說他比較偏經濟部你可以跟經濟部會商今天你踢了兩個球一個踢到國發會一個踢到經濟部謝謝委員無論是針對於災害的預防我們有災害準備計畫包括動源物資包括油包括電的部分我們都有相關的對但是不只這些所以我要國發會我要主計總署對這些進行一個預估好再來請國發會輪到國發會了國發會"},{"start":13296.864,"end":13325.494,"text":"我們現在講的不是書發部的書會設施是包括關鍵基礎設施包括公路 包括網路包括這些服務設施都宣會後續用書面報告來做回覆好不好因為這個涉及的相關部會非常多國發會來彙整其他單位好不好委員希望我們提書面報告我們會請相關部會來提供給我們來彙整來彙整謝謝主席 謝謝召委謝謝專家賓委員接下來請洪立祥洪立祥 洪立祥委員不在"},{"start":13327.635,"end":13331.156,"text":"楊瓊英 楊瓊英 楊瓊英委員不在 接下來請陳冠廷委員你好 我們先請經濟部針對LNG的供應缺口跟替代方案"},{"start":13352.455,"end":13368.78,"text":"好謝謝委員你好根據我們這個國發會的有書面報告我看到它裡面說天然氣4月至5月的調度已經完成但到6月要調度15艘現在找到11艘所以現在還有試船的缺口那所以6月是沒有到還沒有完全到位"},{"start":13369.62,"end":13390.801,"text":"但是這個赫姆茲海峽它現在是實質關閉的狀態不管是從伊朗方或者是未來美國也來雙重封鎖的話這個狀況我們必須要做最壞的打算它可能不是一個月可能不是兩個月可能甚至三個月到五個月甚至到年底我們無法去預知接下來會發生什麼事情"},{"start":13391.522,"end":13411.662,"text":"所以想請教一下如果中油現在在積極的替代貨源那美國澳洲等來源目前主要來自他們比如說北美不是沒有貨那現在有講333佈局就是卡達澳洲美國各三分之一那目前實質上面美國的部分佔中油進口的實質比例大概是多少"},{"start":13412.444,"end":13441.423,"text":"在石油的部分大概是百分之六十左右百分之六十左右石油的部分那天然氣的部分 抱歉我剛剛講錯了10%天然氣是10%對不對 對那其實最近我們上次訪美的時候也有聽到說未來我們是希望說跟美方特別是在阿拉斯加的合作要增加包含天然氣的合作可能性這個部分未來有沒有辦法擴張"},{"start":13442.804,"end":13464.701,"text":"多元的能源料源這是我們一直努力的方向以今年二月為例的話中油公司已經跟美方簽訂另外一個新的長約這個新的長約本來是下半年要提貨的而中油公司也提前到六月來提貨至於你談的阿拉斯加的狀況他還沒有進行到FID現在是意向書"},{"start":13465.95,"end":13476.449,"text":"他還沒有到FID的程序那中永公司會跟相關的阿拉斯加的開發商依照他的資料在進行評估之中"},{"start":13477.452,"end":13503.549,"text":"好 謝謝因為就我們看到的資訊2024年的到2024年的資訊那澳洲是38%左右那卡達大概25%那美方的部分大概是10%這個數字大概是這樣子所以因應風險我們可能未來一定要做一個全面性結構性的調整因為看起來這個狀況是已經會發生的那開源 節流特別是開源的部分我們會緊盯這個部分是不是可以請經濟部來"},{"start":13505.531,"end":13510.551,"text":"想辦法來檢討一下趕快在近期的部分我們就是針對於要通過赫姆茲海峽的部分"},{"start":13511.607,"end":13530.583,"text":"就假設他不進來了所以從其他的貨源來調印我們用低加90的方式針對未來這個90天的所有的我們需要的這個貨氣的部分都已經有排成而我每天也在針對這個部分跟相關的單位來進行檢討比如說這幾天其實都有這個美國的這個貨氣來靠瀉還有其他的地方的貨氣來靠瀉"},{"start":13537.088,"end":13557.754,"text":"好 謝謝經濟部我們做最壞的打算當然做最好的準備那剛才提到除了來源之外當然還有就是接收跟儲存的部分那目前我們有三座只有三座有有有那還在努力的去做市街的這個環評那我們當然知道說經濟部應該是有規劃說擴大浮動式接收站的部分是"},{"start":13559.233,"end":13574.041,"text":"我認為不動式接收站在緊急狀況之下它變成是可能要成為一個新常態因為如果我們實質上面的infrastructure的建設它可能都要數年甚至是數年都沒有辦法來完成的話那"},{"start":13575.021,"end":13603.483,"text":"緊急的應變可能要成為新常態所以擴大這一種浮動式的能力我想是這三年內的重中之重那這個部分經濟部是不是可以來考慮來擴大這樣子這個部分我們已經在做了擴大儲運的方法有很多種那不管是你剛剛講的所謂的地面型的接收站或是你剛剛講的在這個浮運的這個方式那這個我們一直在緊盯中有的相關的準備作業"},{"start":13604.977,"end":13627.88,"text":"不過我是希望說浮動的部分可能在緊急的狀況之下他的需要他急迫性是比較高的啦因為我們等我們全部做完的話也都已經超過2027 2028 2029了對這個部分可以思考一下好謝謝謝謝陳冠廷委員質詢接下來徐富貴徐富貴徐富貴委員不在陳玉珍委員"},{"start":13633.141,"end":13655.25,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩請這個主計長跟國發會主委長先啦 國發會下一題啦好 委員好主委長我們這個金門的財力分級被升為第二級啊是這個竟然跟新北市一樣新北市有一百萬人口有這麼多的資源這完全是不一樣的這個"},{"start":13658.381,"end":13669.667,"text":"兩個這個不可以相比的竟然把金門劃到第二級新北的資源豐沛金門是一個資源受限的這個島嶼而且經濟規模差這麼多這個分級標準有反映真實的這個財政狀況嗎"},{"start":13671.781,"end":13700.371,"text":"是 我們是按照新的財務法法下去分的金門統籌分配稅他增加253%然後他這樣的一個金額增加127億沒有啦 他貨配127億什麼貨配127億分配100多億 本來就50幾億嘛 增加70幾億啊所以他就增加很多 他自有財源比例達到103億自有財源比例強是因為我們自己"},{"start":13700.911,"end":13717.485,"text":"也有金酒嘛金酒貢獻了很多錢當然財化通過對金門有幫助沒錯但是馬祖跟棚屋一樣也分配比例增加很多啊一樣的嘛那為什麼他們就第五級我們就第二級啊不是那你要看你整齊才有財源就是我們自由財源比較強因為馬祖馬祖酒館現在做不錯棚屋沒有自由財源嘛那就是因為金門酒廠會賺錢嘛對不對"},{"start":13728.073,"end":13745.119,"text":"我一直在跟你說的你一直在懲罰好學生嘛認真賺錢的縣市就是要求自己就要再出多一點我要再跟委員報告我們除了這個之外就像我上次跟委員報告的我們還有一個離島建設基金國發會主委請上來 離島建設基金請他上來那你看 你左手給我們錢 右手給我們錢那我們升級以後"},{"start":13753.002,"end":13777.46,"text":"還沒有輪到他 你還是講 離島建設基金在旁邊聽著國發會在旁邊聽著 因為他說因為還有國發會的離島建設基金嘛 對不對主席這樣 你是這麼說嘛所以才會說我們這個自主而自主財運又好 所以才把我們的升級嘛那你看我們統籌分稅稅款增加但是你這個配合款同步增加就我們每一年都要增加八千多萬的這個配合款然後呢離島基金來"},{"start":13780.643,"end":13794.273,"text":"國發會請上來來你看一下齁我們基本做多少事情是不屬於基本先應該做的事情你看這個原來台灣有個台灣省嘛台灣省被經省以後那些什麼港務運作什麼在台灣是交通部"},{"start":13795.113,"end":13815.373,"text":"中華民國交通部管這些自來水台灣有經濟部水利署 次長在這裡以前的署長水利這些東西都是中央在花錢做的農民漁牧防疫都是中央 衛福部也有檢疫這些都是這些單位做但是這些事情在金門都是金門縣在做耶主席這樣你知道嗎"},{"start":13820.185,"end":13820.585,"text":"金門市有自來水廠"},{"start":13837.403,"end":13865.457,"text":"那金門縣政府 誰出言 金門縣政府出錢啊但是委員 我跟你說 以前金門會缺水但是這幾年我們在金門投資了相當的金額去海淡廠你們投資很多做海淡廠 一天可以出多少水 你知道嗎一天啊 金門大概需水量差不多是2.6萬噸左右我們的供給量是海淡廠一天可以多少 你知道嗎4000噸 最多多元的水資源來源剩下的水哪裡來的"},{"start":13866.897,"end":13883.771,"text":"剩下水哪裡來的 你在這邊回答今天不是要講水 今天要提我們就來提金門一天要2.3萬噸的水對不對你們做的海蛋廠一天最多到4000噸 剩下水哪裡來的還有糊庫 糊庫的水哪裡來的"},{"start":13885.212,"end":13909.119,"text":"湖庫的水哪裡來的湖庫的水是天然的天然掉下來的啊 錯了你當然也知道還有說大陸飲水大陸來的嘛一天大陸來兩萬噸的水啊所以我現在講的是說我現在不是要跟你討論大陸來兩萬噸的水基本上百分之八十的水每一天都是大陸來的我不是要討論這個議題我要討論的是這些東西自來水供應啊什麼這些還有那個錢啊都是我們在出嘛你們連那個借錢不夠國發會跟你們經濟部的錢不夠我們投資了四十億喔"},{"start":13914.941,"end":13933.887,"text":"台電還有包括電網設施在那個地方那是台電你現在講水就好了你以前水利署你講水就好台電等一下講水對不對所以我的意思是說剛剛主計長推說給國發會國發會上來一下我今天不是要提水水我們在總職群會來問來推給國發會說還有離島基金那我們來看離島基金你看請問今年這個離島基金"},{"start":13935.851,"end":13954.049,"text":"那個國發會今年的計畫你們給我們過了多少個案子我們提了36個案子你們給我們多少個案子新興案子基本上我們4月20號我們會工作小組會再討論那要等那個會議討論完以後我們才會出審通過只有兩個案子"},{"start":13955.78,"end":13979.262,"text":"36個案子只有給初審通過這是我們跟你們要的資料應該不是正確的資料這是國發會提供的喔大概有36個提案20個具創新轉型意義的20個新案的只有兩個通過原因是什麼來你們也給我們答案了這個是國發會給我們答案說因為請基金應該作為公務預算的助力"},{"start":13981.087,"end":13990.713,"text":"基金請大家盡量利用公務預算這是國防會說的那個委員幕僚給我的意見是我們初步建議至少21案"},{"start":13992.168,"end":14015.188,"text":"至少21案那你願意給我們立島多少錢就是那個金額目前還在那個大概跟上一期不會差太多大部分的錢要金門縣政府自己出吧這個數據就是我們立島基金撥補給地方政府的這一塊所以主計長我要講的是這樣子喔"},{"start":14019.191,"end":14045.834,"text":"我講的是這樣子喔就是說現在很多部會啊在給預算的時候都說要推給這個基金嘛推給國發會啦都要推給國發會但事實上很多錢本來各部會就應該要編您了解我的意思嗎你們把我們的財力分級往上提升變成第二級以後對金門我不否認我們這個就是財化法通過以後我們增加了增加了很多錢沒錯但是因為我們也負擔了很多中央應該做的事情"},{"start":14048.907,"end":14065.823,"text":"所以我們承擔了這麼久以後原來就有後就必須一直這樣忍受下去嗎我們幫你承擔了50年原來就應該中央負擔的東西是不是 你有沒有想過我們都沒有講半句話一直在中央業務一直提倡自己來做水的部分怎麼來做你們就覺得這是原來就有我們負擔"},{"start":14070.842,"end":14099.745,"text":"是嘛 所以我又回頭來講我這邊講過很多次了就是說財力來講我們基本也是離島嘛你就要把我們跟澎湖馬祖相同看待嘛財化法對離島有特別的用你知道齁 就是那一題齁你那個辦法是不是可以幫我修一下你看一下這一題我說按照那個辦法不然我們把第二集修成跟澎湖馬祖一樣啊難道你要把它變第一集嗎所有的公式都是公開透明是 但是財化法裡頭"},{"start":14102.335,"end":14123.095,"text":"你看一下你們那個辦法裡頭 中央的那個辦法裡頭中央對直轄市及縣市政府補助辦法第三條第一款有說原住民不受財力集資的限制 你知道這一條吧中央對直轄市及縣市政府補助辦法第三條第一款"},{"start":14124.332,"end":14153.198,"text":"那按照中華民國憲法呢憲法第十條有規定喔這個國家要保障離島地區的居民生計與發展這是跟原住民一樣的保障那原住民既然可以明確的可以不受財力集資的限制那按照憲法的這個權力平衡這個原則應該是離島要比照這個一樣的做法嘛與原住民同的做法嘛我們不要 我們沒跟原住民一樣金門沒跟原住民一樣也比澎懷馬祖還不好"},{"start":14154.69,"end":14162.849,"text":"我知道所有原因都是因為我們有金酒會賺錢我知道我們會賺錢那是我們很努力你應該要多一點鼓勵的機制"},{"start":14163.806,"end":14189.378,"text":"是 我們也希望能夠盡量來鼓勵啦但是以中央來講 中央沒有錢啦中央錢都分到地方去了中央沒有錢你不要把我們的財務沒有辦法再沒有錢也比金門縣政府有錢啊中央應該做的事情 什麼水利啊 港務啊什麼防疫啊 全部都歸地方自己做 自己出錢那本來就是地方自治的"},{"start":14189.958,"end":14219.518,"text":"是 沒有剛剛講的那些事情都不是地方知識我剛剛問過水利以前我們次長了他以前水利署署長做得很好的署長那些是中央做的還是地方做的台灣自來水公司是地方的嗎是哪一個縣市的不是像地方港舖金門以前店都還自己的醫院都還自己的那我們現在水我們一直希望中央可以收回去中央也不收回去我們全部都要自己做全部自己做就算了你們給我們一點錢嘛或者我們借錢的利息都要我們自己出對不對這個經濟部知道吧"},{"start":14220.719,"end":14225.603,"text":"那個利息也跟你們爭取那麼久我們還幫你們墊錢 還要再墊利息這樣有什麼意圖利你知道我在說哪一筆對不對我們對離島都是一視同仁客人家金門比較有錢 你看那個你不要一直說我們有錢 謝謝相對於澎湖"},{"start":14239.696,"end":14262.721,"text":"是 那是因為我們自己很努力嘛如果我們今天不努力呢 變敗家子咧不行嘛 對不對所以你們要鼓勵我們嘛所以財力的等級就是看地方政府他自有裁員的能力啊這是全國一致標準那至於我們帶水電的這個所謂的基礎設施的這個部分也是依照這樣子的方式來去做"},{"start":14263.681,"end":14269.346,"text":"像你剛說的海淡廠才4000噸對不對金門一天要來兩萬多噸的這個水兩萬二點需要兩萬三千噸的水其中有兩萬噸是從中國大陸來的是不是那如果說所以你是要幫我們多做一點韌性"},{"start":14285.074,"end":14306.825,"text":"你現在就只能提供4000噸啊水利署會跟金門縣政府一起來合作這我上次就問過囉這是總執行會問這一題我告訴你跟卓院長在治水的部分有一些系統性的治水那這個計畫也是全國一致的標準如何協助地方就依照財力分子大家一起來努力"},{"start":14308.186,"end":14336.727,"text":"郭智慧在當部長的時候我上次總執行他就回答過了我們一天只有4000噸的自由水如果要海淡廠只有4000噸我們現在一天從大陸來2萬多噸你說要靠自己你就告訴我我在總執行的時候請你們要提供資料看你們到底一天可以讓我們有多少噸的自由水源假如今天大陸把水龍頭關起來的時候當時啊這個今天大陸飲水的時候我們就是要求說我們事實上我們也協助把服務的菌卸包括管卸包括自來水"},{"start":14337.587,"end":14358.359,"text":"我知道都做了 但是老天爺沒有下雨就是沒有水起碼至少要保足7乘5以上的自有的需求量你今天就假定那個水門口關起來的時候老天爺都沒有下雨 旱災因為常常都是沒有下雨 這麼多人都有旱災如果沒有倒來水是都沒有水的你可以把資料準備一下 我們總之訓練的時候來討論 好嗎好 謝謝"},{"start":14365.145,"end":14365.505,"text":"何欣淳議員"},{"start":14381.59,"end":14405.182,"text":"今天登記發言的委員都已經答詢完畢我們本次會議做如下的決定報告及詢答完畢委員質詢未答覆或請補充資訊請相關部會由一周之內以書面答覆另外委員要求期限者從期鎖定"},{"start":14406.479,"end":14432.616,"text":"委員的部分有徐副鬼委員洪義祥委員王世堅委員所提的書面質詢請用書面的補充資料均列入記錄刊登公報並請相關部會以書面來去做後續的答覆本次會議的議程已進行完畢為我不在場的委員補題書面質詢"},{"start":14435.498,"end":14443.35,"text":"一併列入記錄 刊登公報 並請議事人員協助處理那我們後續就做散會 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病案審查委員吳宗憲等十八人擬居"},{"start":1679.418,"end":1701.413,"text":"民法第1223條條文修正草案等二十案二審查委員吳宗憲等18人拟據民法繼承編釋行法增進增訂第12條條文草案案本次會議有委員吳宗憲等12人提出質詢委員蔡其昌張志倫提出書面質詢決議一報告及詢答完畢二民法第1223條條文修正草案等二十案"},{"start":1701.953,"end":1720.185,"text":"進行逐條審查第1223條保留送院會處理本案審查環境拟據審查報告提請院會公決須交由黨團協商院會討論時由文務召集委員小林出席說明三民法基層編釋刑法增訂第12條條文草案進行逐條審查增訂第12條保留送院會處理"},{"start":1721.025,"end":1735.194,"text":"本案審查完畢 擬繼續審查報告提請院會公決須交由黨團協商院會討論時 由我們召集委員小林出席說明四 委員執行時要求提供相關資料或以順便答覆者請相關機關盡速送交個別委員及本會宣讀完畢"},{"start":1742.145,"end":1769.431,"text":"好謝謝那麼接下來我就先介紹今天的到場委員以及應邀列席的官員首先先介紹在場的委員我們有洪孟楷委員王玉明委員王洪威委員還有陳昭志委員好謝謝另外我們今天這個列席的官員有法務部的常務次長馮次長司法院習事廳的許承州許廳長"},{"start":1771.187,"end":1779.207,"text":"還有民視廳的林俊廷 林廳長好 那其他沒有介紹的官員我們就列入記錄並且刊登公報"},{"start":1782.216,"end":1806.939,"text":"那本次議程討論事項共計排定四案分別為並案審查的貪污治罪條例第十二條條文修正草案共計六案還有第二案就是繼續並案審查中華民國刑法第八十三條條文修正草案共計二十九案第三案並案審查中華民國施刑法增訂第八條之三條文草案"},{"start":1807.399,"end":1832.616,"text":"共計16案第4案是併案審查民法第197條條文修正草案共計3案那麼因為我們第二案就是27到29案以及第三案15 16案經過向議事處詢問目前尚未收到各黨團簽署的不附議同意書所以依開會通知單所在就不予審查"},{"start":1839.093,"end":1843.455,"text":"那麼我們現在就先進行委員的提案說明那麼我們就依照到場的順序來每位發言時間三分鐘原則上我們今天因為有兩案所以一案的發言時間是三分鐘為限那如果說有兩個案子要同時提案說明的話那就麻煩請控制在四分鐘以內"},{"start":1859.224,"end":1874.857,"text":"完成好那麼我們接下來呢我們就依照委員到場的順序來進行提案說明首先我們先請第一位的陳昭芝委員來進行提案說明台灣民眾黨的黨團代表陳昭芝委員來進行提案說明"},{"start":1880.107,"end":1897.334,"text":"謝謝主席我代表台灣民眾黨黨團針對新法第80條的修正草案進行提案說明那本次修法的這個核心重點非常簡單但是也非常迫切就是為了讓未成年人遭受性侵害的時候不再因為時間的限制而失去了追求正義的機會"},{"start":1898.815,"end":1919.044,"text":"未成年人遭受性侵害的時候 往往處於相對的弱勢地位 權力不對等的一個關係未成年的被害人 常常因為他的年齡 他的知識 他的生長環境 心理狀態等等根本就沒有能力 更不敢對加害者提出刑事的告訴他們甚至因為恐懼或羞愧而未能在第一時間鼓起勇氣來站出來面對"},{"start":1922.013,"end":1927.6,"text":"這絕對不是個案 而是長期存在的問題因為根據法務部的統計從2015年到2024年之間因為追訴時效完成而無法起訴的性侵害案件高達248件"},{"start":1937.512,"end":1939.573,"text":"而且數字逐年攀升這代表什麼呢這個代表有數百位的受害者在他們願意鼓起勇氣面對的那一刻法律卻已經將他們前往人生希望之門的那道希望之光的那扇門關掉了"},{"start":1954.62,"end":1981.354,"text":"如果我們堅持時效必須從犯罪成立之日起算對那些在黑暗中等待長大的孩子們而言無疑是二次傷害那現行的中華民國刑法第八十條規定追溯權的時效是從犯罪成立之日起算那麼對於未成年人性侵害性侵被害人而言這樣的設計事實上是等同懲罰被害人而不是加害人"},{"start":1982.074,"end":2003.006,"text":"因此台灣民眾黨黨團針對這個刑法第八十條條文提出了修正草案我們參考了性騷擾防治法第十四條第二項有關未成年被害人與性騷擾案件提取申訴時效之特別規定我們也參考了性侵害犯罪防治法的第二條有關性侵害犯罪之定義明確的規定"},{"start":2005.507,"end":2012.433,"text":"對於未成年人犯性侵害犯罪者其追溯權之時效自被害人成年之日起算對未成年人性侵犯"},{"start":2017.455,"end":2037.911,"text":"犯了性侵犯的犯罪者其罪處懸的時效自被害人成年之日起算這不只是單純的條文修正更是補足制度上的漏洞回應被害人的真實的處境並表達我們對兒少保護的一個堅定的立場捍衛公平正義跟重視生命價值我們選擇保障"},{"start":2039.972,"end":2067.488,"text":"被害人權益而不是放任制度去造成被害人一輩子的身心受創守護未成年的受害者讓正義有機會發生讓傷害不再被時間掩蓋這就是我們提出修法的目的我也希望各位同事各位行政機關代表能夠支持刑法第八十條的修正草案修補法律的漏洞給未成年性侵害被害人一個遲來正義的修正草案謝謝 謝謝主席"},{"start":2070.197,"end":2083.889,"text":"好 謝謝陳委員因為我們現在委員在場的人數已經夠了所以我們由於議事錄之前已經宣讀完畢 尚未確定所以現在我們就先確定議事錄請問各位上次會議議事錄有沒有錯誤或遺漏"},{"start":2086.394,"end":2115.055,"text":"好 沒有的話 那麼我們就議事錄確定那接下來呢 我跟各位先報告一下就是接下來的提案說明的順序緊接著第二位是王玉明委員然後第三位是洪孟凱委員第四位是本席翁小玲然後第五位是王宏威委員第六位接下來是王振旭委員然後第七位是林思明委員然後第八位是張雅玲委員好 那接下來先請王玉明委員發言"},{"start":2119.005,"end":2145.847,"text":"好 謝謝主席今天我們要修正刑法第八十條之一條文這是一個非常重要的條文大家都知道這個未成年遭受到強制性的性侵這是非常嚴重的事情對他們身心都造成難以抹滅的傷害但是現在在實務上只要過了這個追溯期這些受到傷害的孩子他們的正義"},{"start":2148.369,"end":2157.579,"text":"完全沒有辦法被伸張所以今天本席提出來的修法就是要來解決這樣子的一個困境喔還給受害的這一些未成年人該有的司法正義"},{"start":2163.465,"end":2185.978,"text":"那我的版本主要是希望這個在第八十條之一明定對未成年人犯下各類妨礙性自主罪包含了對未成年使用暴力脅迫的強制性交利用對方年幼的猥褻行為以及利用私生親屬等權利關係或欺騙手段發生的性侵害行為"},{"start":2186.858,"end":2206.753,"text":"加害人將不再適用現行追溯時效的規範也就是如果你對未成年人做出這一些不當的性侵害的行為這個追溯期是沒有這個時效20年的時效它是沒有上限的可以一直追溯"},{"start":2207.253,"end":2232.491,"text":"只要受害的當事人他敢把這件事情講出來希望司法還給他正義的時候我們國家的司法就應該要追溯到底喔這個是我的版本那現在行政院提出來的版本他是等成年以後再去算20年但是民間團體也已經講了如果是這樣的算法的話如果是2006年這個發生的案子"},{"start":2235.433,"end":2262.464,"text":"恐怕在我們現在通過的法令裡面也得不到追溯期這個是既然我們要修法我認為不可以再出現有類似這樣的一個漏洞既然要還給這些孩子他當時在未成年所受到的傷害應有的正義那現在行政院這個版本恐怕是有漏洞的沒有辦法完全補足這樣的一個缺口所以我希望在這個法條討論的時候"},{"start":2264.705,"end":2289.275,"text":"行政院應該要針對你們現在所提出的這個修法版本民間團體已經指出來這個漏洞還是會有一些人2006年以前如果發生的案子恐怕就完全被排除在外那這樣的正義也不是完全的正義這個是現在民間團體也已經看出來行政院版本所存在的漏洞所以本席認為我提出來的這個版本"},{"start":2290.655,"end":2301.703,"text":"是可以完全回復這些未成年人他們所受到的傷害與正義那也敬請大院各位委員大家共同來支持修法通過 謝謝好 謝謝王委員那接下來我們請洪孟楷委員發言"},{"start":2312.987,"end":2339.262,"text":"主席各位在場同仁感謝大家我想今天主席特別排案我們針對本席所提案的刑法80條以及83條的提案來說說明喔也感謝剛剛主秘提醒其實本席是我們這29個委員提案裡面第一個提出來但不管是我們在2024年4月這一屆一開始的時候就先提出或是我們眾多委員大家共同關心以及行政院來做修法的草案"},{"start":2339.702,"end":2359.534,"text":"也已經先通過其實核心目的只有一個就是我們要補足現行法令的不足而現行法令在追溯其對於兒少性侵被害者保護不足的漏洞一定要在這個會期讓它給填補完畢因為過去到現在我們看到已經太多的一個真實個案"},{"start":2360.835,"end":2385.135,"text":"兒童或是少年在少年期間未成年期間受到性侵的時候往往他有可能是全是性侵家屬性侵或者是說有熟人性侵的一個情況而這樣的一個情況在他未成年之前很可能他是沒有辦法開口沒有能力開口或是不知道怎麼開口也因此我們不能讓現行的追溯期變成是一個緊箍咒綁住讓"},{"start":2387.037,"end":2400.508,"text":"未成年的被害者他在被性侵的時候而造成因為追溯期的時間而當他真的想開口真的想為自己以及社會大眾找回公道的時候卻發覺追溯期已過"},{"start":2401.738,"end":2427.923,"text":"所以我想在這個前提之下我們不分朝野藍綠我們共同要把這個漏洞給補齊最重要的就是我們不要再有憾事發生開宗明義當然對於任何人的性侵都不應該但如果說有人敢在中華民國犯罪我們也一定要讓被害者知道中華民國政府以及我們相關的法令是能夠保障你讓你隨時想要"},{"start":2428.983,"end":2443.58,"text":"對於你的加害者提出必要的法律訴訟以及必要的司法來保障你的一個權益也因此本席所提出來的80條跟83條的共同修法重點其實就是"},{"start":2443.72,"end":2465.272,"text":"明確排除被害者成年前期間對於追溯期期效的限制並且不再完全建立在犯罪史後發生的客觀點而是能夠合理回應兒少被害者何時真正具備認知自主以及程序參與能力的現實再來提出我們希望透過這次的修法一方面"},{"start":2466.332,"end":2491.768,"text":"再一次的強調任何人都不應該在中華民國我們國土境內犯罪另外一方面也避免法律宣示保護兒少卻在需要制度支持的時候讓追溯期先行耗盡而導致於保護落空還是再次感謝主席我們希望在這個會期裡面我們共同努力讓這個會期能夠三讀通過真真正正回應民意感謝大家"},{"start":2503.902,"end":2507.105,"text":"現在我們有請翁曉琳委員做提案說明謝謝主席本席今天待會有兩個提案說明那麼首先我先針對貪污治罪條例第12條條文修正草案進行說明我們知道去年這個曾經發生過一件就台北市一名清潔隊員將殘職指示"},{"start":2527.081,"end":2541.636,"text":"32元但仍然堪用的回收電鍋呢就轉送給一位拾荒的老婦人那麼沒想到呢竟然被認為她是一個侵占職務上持有財物而依照貪污治罪條例罪嫌起訴那這個案例其實引發了社會高度的關注"},{"start":2542.156,"end":2544.717,"text":"這個本案雖然後來經過法院法官絞盡腦汁努力的檢刑但是仍然判處了三個月有期徒刑緩刑兩年並且褫奪公權一年當然我想這絕對不是首件小額貪污的案件"},{"start":2557.563,"end":2563.466,"text":"其實在過往的數十年裡面我們不時會看到類似的案件譬如說曾經有警官因為虛報加班時數一領加班費而遭只有兩千多塊的事情而遭貪污治罪條例起訴判刑一年十個月緩刑三年"},{"start":2573.692,"end":2587.944,"text":"也曾经有位将军因为他招待他同袍弟兄的眷属吃饭用了军方的加菜金2800多块支付餐饮费用也是被依照贪污秩序条例所起诉那判处徒刑四年六个月退休分因此被腰斩那这些"},{"start":2591.047,"end":2594.73,"text":"案例都引起輿論的嘩然那我想這些案件其實凸顯出現行的貪污自罪條例的規範設計不當的問題也就是它不能夠去區分重大的貪腐以及情節輕微的小額貪污案件導致罪責與刑度是顯不相當已經違反了罪行相當原則"},{"start":2610.402,"end":2613.483,"text":"所以有出現這種秦清法重或是小罪重罰的問題那與國民的法律情感呢也有巨大的落差那麼我們知道現在的貪污自罪條例的本意其實是在嚴懲貪污雖然說他"},{"start":2625.629,"end":2628.69,"text":"希望原產貪污還有維護聯能的政治然而現行制度對於像這種小額貪污情節輕微的案件卻缺乏足夠的彈性因此本次修法是主張希望能夠在維持現在5萬元以下的維額門檻的前提之下能夠將現行的減輕期刑再修正為減輕或免除期刑"},{"start":2649.717,"end":2666.502,"text":"將一個原本僵硬的制度重新拉回理性與人性之間的平衡讓法院能夠在面對主觀意圖客觀損害輕微的案件的時候可以選擇免刑讓刑法能夠真正回歸到最後的手段"},{"start":2667.799,"end":2695.904,"text":"最後本席要再次強調本次的修正案絕對不是放寬貪污而是我們要讓法律更精準這不是在縱容違法的小貪而是要讓處罰更符合責任法律的力量不是在於它的嚴厲而是更在於它的分寸當法律過於僵硬它可能傷害的不只是違法者更是整體社會對於正義的信任我有合情合理有溫度的法律"},{"start":2696.344,"end":2707.41,"text":"方能真正實現社會正義所以還請委員們支持本項的修法那最後呢我還要再針對刑法第八十條的追溯權的提案修法再進行一個非常簡短的說明簡單來說就是其實"},{"start":2710.629,"end":2738.688,"text":"在过去19年我们看到我们台湾已经有超过成千的这个被害人他们即使选择进入司法程序但是仍然是因为追诉时效届满而遭不起诉换句话说他们不是没有证据而是没有勇气不是没有勇气而是没有时间所以呢在现行的刑法第80条里面的这个规定呢事实上并不是很合理那么尤其是对于被害人而言他时间经过了"},{"start":2738.968,"end":2752.916,"text":"他不見得代表他有能力可以行使權力所以在這一次本次的這個修法的核心非常明確我們就主張對於未滿18歲被害人的性侵案件在成年之前追溯時效應該要暫停計算並且從年滿18歲後重新起算那這項修正並不是要無限"},{"start":2760.02,"end":2760.2,"text":"謝謝翁委員"},{"start":2795.54,"end":2824.281,"text":"我们接下来有请王洪威委员发言好谢谢主席以及与会的官员和委员们我今天是主要针对我们贪污治罪条例第12条还有我们刑法第80条的条文修正我一并来做这个提案说明刚才我们欧晓琳委员特别提到了在104年的时候"},{"start":2825.662,"end":2837.22,"text":"當時曾經有在陸軍花東防衛指揮部的參謀長行政室因為他們違反加菜金相關的規定所以他們是被"},{"start":2839.407,"end":2855.385,"text":"触犯贪污治罪条例还有陆海空军刑法及刑法那当然这个案子当时也得到很多社会大众的大家的同情那么当时在社会大众的一个声音之下"},{"start":2856.346,"end":2883.578,"text":"蔡英文總統後來在2022年的4月份對這個案子決定特赦那這個案子當時在社會旗幟引起廣泛的討論但是後來也是如同剛才翁小玲委員所提到的也就是台北市清潔隊員她把一個回收的就電鍋送出去那麼一樣的就判她這個一審有罪"},{"start":2884.438,"end":2908.597,"text":"那雖然當時整個的社會的氛圍也是對他非常同情而且有關於修法的聲浪就開始在整個的社會上引起了非常多的討論而且也有很多人希望總統也能夠針對這個案子來做特赦所以在短短的幾年之間這兩個案子讓社會"},{"start":2911.9,"end":2936.901,"text":"民間團體還有讓我們的立法院去省思是不是我們現行的貪污治罪條例對於這些違罪是不是太過的嚴苛而且重點是我們也希望有限的司法檢調的人力應該放在追訴更嚴重的案子上而不是這些違罪結果引起社會很大的反彈"},{"start":2937.702,"end":2941.344,"text":"所以在這邊也提出相關的修正最重要的就是把這個條文可以改為減輕或免除期刑這讓法官他在量刑的時候他有一個選擇這絕對不是輕放貪污他這邊是讓我們的法官能夠有一個選擇"},{"start":2960.336,"end":2981.687,"text":"那另外在刑法第80條的部分剛才我們的很多委員也講得非常的清楚所以我這邊主要也是參考像奧地利的刑法日本刑事訴訟法相關的規範明定性侵害等犯罪成立日至被害人滿20歲以前所經過的期間不計入追訴權時效的期間"},{"start":2987.509,"end":3002.295,"text":"這個就是如同我們剛才很多委員所提到的希望讓像這種兒少被受到侵害的他那個時候可能他不了解或者他沒有去做追溯可是"},{"start":3003.115,"end":3026.822,"text":"持來的正義終究是正義所以我們經過這樣的修法能夠讓這些被害人能夠得到在法律上能夠得到更多的關照以及讓他們有機會可以透過這樣的修法能夠真正的去討回他們的公道所以在這邊有關於判污自罪條例第12條跟刑法第80條條文也希望"},{"start":3030.183,"end":3036.313,"text":"好 包含我們的行政部門以及我們各黨派的委員都能夠與你支持 謝謝好 謝謝王委員那接下來我們再請王振旭委員發言"},{"start":3056.612,"end":3075.757,"text":"好 謝謝主席主席 各位同仁與這個與會機關的官員兒少性侵害是我們社會必須正式的沉痛的問題本案修正刑法第80條考量創傷復原需要更長的社會支持我們以20歲作為門檻"},{"start":3077.597,"end":3089.548,"text":"主張被害人滿20歲以前追溯權時效不記錄確保被害人在擁有完全獨立人格後 能有完整的時效期間尋求救濟"},{"start":3091.089,"end":3099.177,"text":"澳洲皇家委員會經過長達5年的巡查聘請超過700位員工耗時超過澳幣3.4億、約新台幣70多億元在2017年12月份發表了總計17卷的最終報告"},{"start":3108.365,"end":3124.394,"text":"這個報告依據6875位倖存者的經歷進行分析從最終報告得知多個重點其中之一就是倖存者平均要花24年才能所次說出受害的經歷"},{"start":3125.334,"end":3145.696,"text":"根據外務部統計2024年性侵害的案件被害人一共有9230人其中未滿18歲的兒少為4793人佔比超過一半 到達51.92%所以性侵害具有高度的隱蔽性兒少被害人常因為身心未成熟與加害者之間的權益不對等"},{"start":3146.457,"end":3162.359,"text":"不理解法律的權利而無法及時的得到救助這包括三個重點第一個權力不對等的鎖鏈在未成年受害者案件當中有五分之一19.6%為家內的性侵而其中加害人為其直系親屬者"},{"start":3163.681,"end":3183.374,"text":"占到45.7%也就是說本應該對被害人負有保護義務的父母或祖父母被害人往往要等到經濟完全獨立甚至脫離原生家庭以後才有能力來處理這份的創傷第二點就是醫學上的創傷反應兒少被害人常出現壓抑或解離的機制"},{"start":3184.255,"end":3198.9,"text":"大腦為了生存會封存記憶導致他們無法在現行的追溯期裡面追溯第三點就是認知與污名而是要在案發的時候常常缺乏辨識權益受損的能力加上社會對性的污名化"},{"start":3200.1,"end":3218.605,"text":"讓揭露之路變得極其漫長在台灣當這些孩子成年終於有勇氣開口的時候現行法律卻告訴他們時效過了這不是正義這是立法制度上的失能目前憲法法庭正在處理相中關於溯及既往的法律爭議我表達支持的立場"},{"start":3219.845,"end":3246.875,"text":"並尊重憲法法庭最終的決定但在此之前今天我們要處理的修正案就是為了要補足當年司法的失誤目前行政院及我提出的20歲起算只是正義的及格限甚至是最低的目標法律不應該是加害人的保護傘讓這些帶著秘密長大的孩子給他們有足夠的時間再長出足夠的面對的力量的時候不要被司法拋棄請大家一起來支持謝謝"},{"start":3249.244,"end":3253.872,"text":"好 謝謝王委員那接下來我們就請林思敏委員發言"},{"start":3263.203,"end":3284.95,"text":"好 謝謝主席我想我今天非常感謝主席今天針對我們社會大家非常關注的《通知條例》第12條以及《刑法》80條的修正案今天特別來排審我想我針對這兩個提案也做了兩個版本的修正"},{"start":3286.05,"end":3309.108,"text":"我針對《貪污治罪條例》第12條的修正草案我想我的版本跟大家比較不一樣我特別提出說明我想《貪污治罪條例》的立法目的在於嚴懲貪污、澄清勵志在司法實務上對於利用職務的機會榨取或領得小額財物的案件我們一律納入重罪的體系處理"},{"start":3310.569,"end":3335.781,"text":"致使部分案件在社會觀感以及法律的評價上出現失衡的情形凸顯我們現行制度於適用上的爭議與不足也違反我們人民的法律感情我想我們現行貪污治罪條例的規範架構對於情節輕微或圖得財務不正利益金額在新台幣五萬元以下的案件"},{"start":3337.001,"end":3363.128,"text":"實務上仍可能適用高額的法定刑度雖設有相關的減刑規定但僅屬良刑的調整並未改變其適用貪污秩序條例重罪架構的一個本質對於情節輕微的案件仍難以達到真正的分流與合理主義的一個效果整體刑責結構仍偏重"},{"start":3365.009,"end":3386.158,"text":"我們導致事務上已見基層或者廣義的公務員因涉入小額的不正利益卻遭受到重罪論處的情形造成小罪重罰與輕輕罰重的現象這顯然與比例原則以及罪行相當原則未竟相符亦有偏離本條例立法原則的"},{"start":3387.537,"end":3406.567,"text":"的這個本意所以有檢討修正的必要以使我們的法制更趨合理與橫貧所以刑法與貪污治罪條例與圖利詐欺侵占等犯罪類型上存有競合的關係依特別法又依普通法的原則據公源身份者"},{"start":3409.025,"end":3426.975,"text":"一旦涉案,通常優先是用貪污罪罪條例來處罰然然現行規範為救工人員的層級、權責範圍及行為輕重加以區分導致不同嚴正程度的行為均可能面臨相同嚴厲的法律評價、欠缺彈性及細緻性"},{"start":3428.596,"end":3450.079,"text":"我本次修正其針對現行條文犯第四條第六條之罪情節輕微而其所得或所圖得的財物或不正利益在新台幣五萬元以下者減輕其行為調整修正為犯第四條第六條之罪情節輕微而其所得或圖得的財物或不正利益在新台幣"},{"start":3451.221,"end":3475.802,"text":"5萬元以下者依刑法內的罪名來處罰以符合我們情節輕微且經而在5萬元以下的案件自貪污治療條例中來處罪避免小額的犯罪行為遭過度的刑法評價來提升法治的公平性落實比例原則與罪行相當的原則"},{"start":3477.043,"end":3492.845,"text":"改善現行制度情形法重的問題使我們的法律適用更真合理所以我希望郭委員能夠支持另外針對刑法80條的修正這個草案我想剛才很多委員也提出了我想我們鑑於現行制度"},{"start":3493.706,"end":3511.8,"text":"刑事案件的追溯權從犯罪成立時起算並依犯罪的情節輕重是有不同的時效期間但是對於未成年的被害人而言在其受性侵或者猥褻的行為當下往往因為年齡上誘"},{"start":3513.394,"end":3537.753,"text":"認知不足無法立即辨識其自身權益遭受到侵害或因為畏懼加害人的權勢所以他沒有辦法立即的求助或報案事實上也常見被害人於成年後只有能力釐清過往的一個創傷並尋求法律的救濟但這個時候卻已經逾越追訴的時效致使案件無法進入司法的成立"},{"start":3538.873,"end":3566.756,"text":"這個司法的審理程序嚴重影響我們司法正義的這個實現所以我們這一次呢就增訂了提案八十條第三項明定對於未成年人所犯的特定性侵及猥褻相關犯罪稅數全實下的計算與被害人未滿二十歲之前不予記錄我想這個也是都是大家共同的意見也希望各位委員還有我們行政部門能夠大家及時廣益"},{"start":3567.617,"end":3576.738,"text":"共同來支持這些提案以上 謝謝好 謝謝林委員那接下來我們就請張雅琳委員發言"},{"start":3589.231,"end":3614.612,"text":"謝謝主席那我想今天就是針對刑法第八十條關於最授權的時效呢原則上是從犯罪時候的時候開始起算但是對於許多未成年的兒少受害者呢這樣子的規定非常的不合理也沒有反映兒少性侵的這些被害案件的特殊性因為我想大家都非常清楚的知道兒少在當下受害的當下他其實沒有足夠的能力去了解自己到底發生了什麼事情"},{"start":3615.333,"end":3644.343,"text":"也不一定有能力來去立刻的求助甚至報案或是進入司法程序因為最關鍵的原因是什麼是因為我們許多的兒少他面對的加害人都是他認識的人可能是他的家人是他的老師或是他相信的人所以在這樣子的狀況之下他常常是因為害怕他因為也不知道該怎麼求助甚至他可能在那個年紀還沒有辦法辨識自己已經受到侵害了"},{"start":3645.379,"end":3664.308,"text":"所以呢他等到他長大稍微有一點點覺得自己好像有點怪怪的時候呢他面對的又不只是要不要報案這麼單純的一件事情他還要面對的是說他講出來這件事情人家會不會相信他人家會不會覺得他的證據力不夠"},{"start":3665.228,"end":3688.413,"text":"等等等等的原因而造成他在這件事情上面會更加的擔心更加的恐懼那也延遲了整個這個報案的時間揭露的時間所以呢等到他有能力面對創傷整理經驗然後決定站出來說出來他的經驗的時候呢他又會遇到什麼他會遇到說我們的法律案是用"},{"start":3689.053,"end":3716.665,"text":"班案件的時間在計算所以就會讓這樣子一個非常脆弱在一個非常艱難處境的被害人他就會被排除在司法救濟之外所以這次的修法重點就是希望針對這些未成年的兒上受害人來調整他的追溯權計算追溯權時效的計算方式讓被害人在成年以前的那段時間不列入追溯權的時效"},{"start":3717.285,"end":3731.155,"text":"在制度中也加入對兒少被害案件特殊處境的理解讓我們的法律更貼近現實也更能夠保護這一些被害人特別是我們的兒少受害者 謝謝好 謝謝蔣委員那麼我們接下來就進行機關報告那麼麻煩請每位機關代表報告時間就以三分鐘為限好 那我們首先先有請法務部的馮次長"},{"start":3752.396,"end":3779.749,"text":"感謝主席還有各位委員並案審查本部主管的法規這次並案審查共分三大部分分別是貪污自罪條例第12條條文的修正草案及刑法施行法的第8條之一第8條之二第8條之三的修正草案第三個部分是民法第197條條文的修正草案197條之一的條文草案等相關的議題來向各位委員報告"},{"start":3780.953,"end":3807.466,"text":"那有關於貪污自罪條例第十二條條文的修正草案那針對社會各界都有注意到這個小額貪污的案件這個輕輕法重的問題本部也高度的重視那在已經拟據了貪污自罪條例部分條文的修正草案目前是呈報行政院審查中那關於五萬元以下的輕微案件草案第十二條第一項有增訂"},{"start":3808.146,"end":3820.363,"text":"得免除其刑的規定那依刑法第66條但書規定其所受有其徒刑之減輕得減至三分之二那獲法院可以就具體的個案為免刑的判決"},{"start":3821.448,"end":3839.656,"text":"那就各位委員提案的修法目的本部都競表贊同那請就各委員版的細節來進一步做說明首先在林倩琦委員王歐委員跟翁曉琳委員所提的草案與本部索尼的草案同樣都是增訂"},{"start":3840.416,"end":3857.166,"text":"得免除其刑的規定那這個部分本部都正面的看待第二個部分在賴瑞龍委員所提的草案文字用語雖然跟本部的草案有一點不同但是法律效果是相同有沒有必要另行明定具體的檢刑幅度這個部分也見請斟酌"},{"start":3858.647,"end":3886.486,"text":"那第三個在蔡易瑜委員所提的草案有細分金額的層次層級限制只有一萬元以下的部分才能免行恐過於聚焦單一良形的因素那一萬至五萬之間的個案之間仍然可能會出現一些勤勤罰重的困境那是不是有設立雙層的金額門檻的一個必要呢這個部分也請再斟酌那再來是林思敏委員所提的草案"},{"start":3887.366,"end":3910.935,"text":"提議將小額貪污案件全面的一個回歸刑法的論處那當然貪污自罪條例第四條至第六條的罪和刑法上的罪名事實上也不一定能夠完全精準的去應對那如果沒有通盤的去檢討刑法的規定就有可能會造成適用上的疑義甚至造成規範上的漏洞所以這一個部分也見請審慎的評估"},{"start":3912.956,"end":3935.071,"text":"那再來就是有關於刑法還有刑法施刑法修正草案這部分是針對延長兒少性侵害犯罪被害人的追訴權的實效的以及處理新舊法如何適用的問題鑑於未成年人性侵害犯罪被害人因為案發的時間身心發展其實尚未成熟沒有辦法充分理解法律上的這個權利"},{"start":3936.292,"end":3952.471,"text":"故這個追溯權的部分有特別的規定那這個部分上我們本部的那個說明都已經詳細說明了那民法第197條跟197條之一的部分對於各委員提案修正延長未成年人性自主受侵害"},{"start":3953.011,"end":3970.55,"text":"損害賠償請求權的消滅時效的修正方向跟精神本部也競表贊同那消滅時效的修正已有整體性的一個政策避免零星的個別修法造成的一個混亂那目前呢我們也都已經徵詢了中央機關地方政府跟全國律師聯合會的意見"},{"start":3972.532,"end":3993.961,"text":"然後在整理各界的意見中我們會盡速的完成草案的研議後來做法案的宣告那非常感謝大案審查上開的法案並於過程中給予我們非常多的寶貴的意見並期待盡速的完成修法的程序維護社會公義保障人民的權益 以上謝謝好 謝謝馮次長的報告那接下來我們再請司法院的許廳長"},{"start":4001.511,"end":4023.427,"text":"主席各位委員各位先進今天貴院司法及法治委員會全體委員會議並案審查四大主題共54案本院奉邀列席報告深感榮幸本院也非常重視此次的審議因此民事廳刑事廳廳長均列席報告我先就刑事部分簡要報告如下第一首先關於貪污自罪條例部分"},{"start":4024.908,"end":4047.354,"text":"我們認同這個委員這個有關這個使這個輕微的罪行符合罪行相當的修法意旨但關於這個私用上可能產生疑義想藉此指明首先關於委員賴瑞榮等20人拟據的這個修正草案那本條第一項是法律效果呢它規定這個得遣金期刑至期刑之三分之一或免除期刑部分"},{"start":4047.834,"end":4064.414,"text":"那這個部分如果這個依照一般的立法體例是不是可以再為得減刑或免除其刑那依刑法第66條去設定其減刑幅度這部分見請斟酌第二 關於委員林思明等17人擬拒貪污制裁條例第12條修正草案部分"},{"start":4064.834,"end":4093.619,"text":"那這個部分我們也肯定林思明委員關於想要把這個違罪部分回歸刑法適用那這個撇除特別刑法肥大化的現象這樣的用心但關於這個因以刑法本文之罪名論處這個部分在刑法的適用上可能有明確性的疑義這部分呢建請在這個說明欄再加以續名或舉例那其餘關於貪污之罪條例部分本院尊重全責機關及大院之審議及決定第二關於中華民國刑法部分的修正案"},{"start":4094.139,"end":4115.309,"text":"我們也同樣肯定各位委員保障未成年性侵被害人訴訟權的立法意旨我也想就適用上的一些問題可能的問題予以就教各位委員第一關於委員洪孟凱等21人拟據的草案這一條草案是修正中華民國刑法第83條"},{"start":4116.69,"end":4134.472,"text":"那83條這個第二項第四款所在有充分認識有意願及能力這些概念是希望能夠作為時效停止原因視為消滅之室友但他認定上可能有模糊的空間那第二關於王玉敏委員等21人你據之80條之1的條文草案那這一條立法原意是要避免這個"},{"start":4135.914,"end":4152.739,"text":"為成年信心悲哀人成年之後時有能力提起訴訟但是追訴權已消滅這一個情形那如果是這樣的話似乎可以採取成年前不進入追訴權時效期間是規範模式不完全排除追訴權時效規定是適用這個部分敬請斟酌第二 關於委員範圍"},{"start":4155.26,"end":4173.766,"text":"等22人委員李坤澤等17人委員李坤誠等21人所擬拒之刑法第80條條文修正草案部分那這一個部分本條第三項所列罪名並未列舉所有這個妨礙性自主罪名其範圍小於兩院會嫌版這個部分是不是有所遺漏或刻意的予以不依規定請再確認"},{"start":4175.006,"end":4189.955,"text":"再來關於委員郭玉琴等16人拟據這83條條文修正草案他同樣也有這個洪孟楷等21人所拟據條文的問題那另外關於這個部分也請斟酌關於王美惠等18人等這個關於83條修正"},{"start":4191.696,"end":4216.423,"text":"草案部分這個部分也可能有漏載部分的情況也請斟酌那在關於陳素月委員等擬拒之八十條修正草案他這個條文規定對十八歲以下之人這個部分呢漸行改為未滿十八歲之人以符合這個未成年之未成年人保護之意旨因為十八歲以下拒含本數包括十八歲再來關於委員翁小玲等十七人擬拒之八十條修正案"},{"start":4217.303,"end":4240.248,"text":"這個部分呢立法理由的部分這個有提及性騷案件但是本條的第三項所列罪名並不包含性騷而防治法之罪說明欄這個部分是否有所誤載也請確認再來關於委員林思明等20人你據之刑法80條條文修正案這個部分是不是有遺漏了刑法第224條之一的加重強制猥褻罪或是有意排除請予確認"},{"start":4240.928,"end":4263.217,"text":"那其餘關於這個八十條及八十三條部分本院尊重權責機關及大院之審議及決定那另外關於中華民國刑法施行法部分那黃婕委員等十九人林月琴等二十一人所擬據這個相關的八條之三的修正草案部分明定追溯權已完成者也適用修正後之規定那這個是學理上所謂的真正溯潔既往那這一種"},{"start":4263.957,"end":4282.697,"text":"真正溯及記網的規定有違法安定性原則在我國的立法體力上還沒有這種把人民基本權干預程度最大的刑罰效果也採用這種真正溯及記網的這種立法那本條說明欄所引司法院釋字793號解釋它也不涉及刑罰效果那縱使這個"},{"start":4284.258,"end":4307.541,"text":"刑法八十條第一項第一款徵定涉及法醫保護最高的生命法醫也直採不徵證溯及計謀那這部分請也請斟酌那其一部分本院尊重權責機關及大院之審議及決定那以上報告那如果民法部分我們如果還有時間是不是也容我們民視廳的這一個廳長來做報告好那就請那個民視廳廳長也是很快三分鐘好麻煩"},{"start":4311.85,"end":4327.33,"text":"主席各位委員還有各位縣長榮幸代表本院民事廳來報告有關民法各委員有關民法的修正案首先要跟各位委員說明的是說本院高度贊同各位委員要強化"},{"start":4328.351,"end":4351.285,"text":"未成年子女民事請求權的這一個立法政策方向那以下所提出來的只是單純針對修正條文的草案可能在未來試用上可能產生的疑義稍微做一點見解的釐清首先針對王玉民委員18人凝聚的197條的這個修正草案部分"},{"start":4352.225,"end":4374.197,"text":"我們的本院第一個意見是說要消滅時效完全這個草案完全排除時效的限制這個在立法例上是比較罕見的因為他會極端案例可能80歲到90歲這個是不是妥適見請斟酌另外第二點針對性侵害其他妨礙性自主行為這個具體概念在定義上可能要在於釐清"},{"start":4375.697,"end":4393.205,"text":"那關於王世堅等16位委員所提取的民法197條之一的條文查案那本院的第一點跟第二點意見跟剛才有關王玉明委員所提案的第二點意見大同小異也就是說對於性侵害"},{"start":4394.205,"end":4416.213,"text":"這一個內容他到底是包括性自主單純的刑法性自主或結合犯那有沒有包括性騷擾或兒童少年性剝削條例的這些特殊犯罪那另外關於說性騷擾是不是要完全等同性侵害犯罪一律適用所謂的20年的消滅時效有沒有輕重失衡這個也見請在座那第三點"},{"start":4417.933,"end":4444.382,"text":"針對這一個提案要從未成年從成年後才起算下面時效這個部分本院是認為說應該要再釐清兩種狀況因為剛才有很多委員都提到有一些是屬於家屬親密之人所謂的親愛那這個時候從未成年成年起算這個是比較有正當性但是在某一些案例因為這個法定代理人本身他就已經自習他也可以行使這個權利"},{"start":4445.442,"end":4462.774,"text":"那如果這個時候讓未成年從未成年成年後才起算那前面的法定代言的請求權要怎麼辦這會產生一些適用上的矛盾那針對第三個這個陳樹業委員等16人凝聚民法197條之一的鎮定案"},{"start":4464.856,"end":4488.175,"text":"這個第一個部分本院的意見是說本草案把民事跟刑事的追訴權時效跟消滅時效完全等同這個可能有一點疑義因為民事跟刑事的追訴權時效在概念上跟目的上都不太一樣譬如說刑事他有獨立告訴權民事沒有民事法定代言就是代這個被害人他是只有一個請求權"},{"start":4489.056,"end":4505.184,"text":"那另外刑事告訴權是限制國家來刑事偵審但是民事它是如果它只是個抗辯權也不太一樣那還有刑事來講它只有停止的室友民事比較複雜還有中斷不完整然後那個太陽非常復彈"},{"start":4506.184,"end":4532.662,"text":"那第二個第三點第二項有關陳委員的第二點跟第三點的意見就跟之前王世堅委員等提案第二點跟第三點的意見一樣本院不在最初那最後因為法務部目前正在修正民法消滅時效的規定有關消滅時效的長短計算時間涉及民法整體體系平衡那是不是尊重法務部權責託處以上"},{"start":4537.162,"end":4560.712,"text":"好 謝謝那麼其餘的練習機關有沒有要口頭補充的如果沒有的話那麼我們機關代表的報告就完畢相關書面內容就請各位參閱並且列入公報記錄那我們現在就開始進行詢答那麼由於詢答後還會繼續進行法案的審查所以一例我們本會委員詢答時間為六分鐘那麼必要時可以延長兩分鐘"},{"start":4561.872,"end":4574.877,"text":"非本會委員尋答的時間就為4分鐘並且不再延長那麼首先另外就上午10點30分我們就截止發言登記我們先請登記第一位的陳昭志委員進行尋答謝謝謝謝主席有請馮次長好請馮次長"},{"start":4587.558,"end":4608.568,"text":"市長這兩張截圖是來自法務部調查局和內政部的警政署的通緝犯的查詢系統那涉及88會館地下會對案的林秉文他在2024年的時候棄保潛逃了潛逃期間他還可以玩臉書PO文大家都很好奇這麼高調的通緝犯那背後到底是有多大的靠山在挺呢"},{"start":4609.648,"end":4634.349,"text":"但是這個調查局的系統上面寫的說可能潛逃的地點是洛杉磯我先請教次長通常法務部是如何去判斷可能潛逃的地點跟委員報告其實我們所屬的這個調查局或廉政署或者他們在偵辦案件之中他們會依照他們的權責去處理那法務部在個案上不會去做這樣的一個判斷"},{"start":4637.028,"end":4651.614,"text":"所以您不知道是怎麼樣去判斷他的潛逃力就是說我們在那個檢查機關裡面會針對這個個案的一個狀況來做不同的一個好 次長 那我就繼續講就是說我相信所有人都看到今年3月下旬這一堆新聞"},{"start":4652.594,"end":4657.057,"text":"那標題不外乎是洗錢教父林秉文在柬埔寨身中了29槍後身亡那臉孔還被這個砍到面目全非由於他背後牽扯的這個太多黨政人士了而且關係複雜牽涉無數的高官跟顯貴那並且他犯刑他的犯刑涉及巨大的金流因為他號稱這個林百億"},{"start":4675.811,"end":4690.006,"text":"但是他中槍身亡 臉部被砍到面目全非之後 先前所涉及的詐欺 洗錢案這些罪行人事物最後都可能一筆勾銷 會去公訴不受理 撤銷通緝所以我要請教次長 在這樣的狀況下 這則訊息林秉文死亡 他的真實性是否變得很重要呢"},{"start":4698.784,"end":4722.182,"text":"跟委員報告 當然我們法務部的這個政策他對死亡真實性是不是很重要非常重要非常重要 那次長林秉文在通緝期間高調的PO文那檢調依舊找不到人那以為他在美國逃亡嘛 剛剛跟檢調的這個資料結果他出現在柬埔寨欸那林秉文一死 人事實例五馬上被報導"},{"start":4723.703,"end":4728.926,"text":"這反差也太大了吧 這個反差留給大眾很多的想像空間所以我要請教次長 如果報導資訊是屬實 身中29槍而且面目全非 那真的能確定本人嗎台灣跟吉普賽之間並沒有司法互助合作請問警政署跟法務部要怎麼去查核通緝犯是否死亡 請簡單回答"},{"start":4746.77,"end":4759.561,"text":"那這個部分這個案件的相關的一個細節其實柬埔寨的這個警方都表示還在上代調查所以在這個部分上會很慎重的去處理是這個真實性的部分這邊回答委員的問題"},{"start":4760.663,"end":4785.57,"text":"那我先就請教有沒有比對過指紋跟DNA你曉得嗎這個部分柬埔寨的檢方他們會做進一步的一個去調查這就是我的重點因為我要下一個就要請教你到底是我們的警方檢方去做採樣的呢還是說完全仰賴柬埔寨警方提供的資訊而已柬埔寨不也是被視為詐欺王國之一嗎林秉文要買通人來詐欺有困難嗎市長你覺得柬埔寨資料就可以了嗎"},{"start":4790.391,"end":4810.904,"text":"你現在還在等,但是難道他們給你的資料你就全信了嗎?跟委員報告,就是說我們國的駐胡志明市的辦事處兼夾柬埔寨的外管人員還有警政署的刑事局駐該地的聯絡官都共同的在了解,而且協助家屬處理指認跟後續的事宜"},{"start":4811.364,"end":4820.854,"text":"這部分會慎重處理啦 請委員放棄市長 這個我還有下面的要請教你通緝犯炸死不是沒有先例喔2000年前台銀箱裡陳守福他倒賣了10.2億的這個公債被通緝他的妻子還聲稱說接獲陳守福在中國車禍死亡的消息"},{"start":4830.643,"end":4852.772,"text":"但是陳首璞卻在中國把錢洗到美國最後他是因為超過這個追訴期給予不起訴處分那去年5月台中地檢署針對這個大川警署詹姓男子發布通緝隔月就收到他在柬埔寨新吉耿塞死亡的消息那為了防範這個炸死所以等待家屬他把遺體空運回台後那鑑識人員也到現場去採證指紋"},{"start":4858.235,"end":4871.446,"text":"檢體比對那確認他是本人之後才予以不起訴處分所以我接下來就要請教次長你剛剛都沒有回答到這個重點負責偵辦林秉文案件的新北地檢署是否也應該採取一樣的做法呢"},{"start":4873.739,"end":4891.113,"text":"跟委員報告地檢署有這個相關的一個作業我們法部這邊會請地檢署慎重看待這個案件那在於說跟委員報告就是說警方的一個部分警政署對這個案件也會很重視那事實上真實性這個部分上一定會做強加的一個檢查這部分請委員放心"},{"start":4892.675,"end":4920.614,"text":"你就是要具體的方法啊就是人家是這麼做在做確認啊因為涉及到境外上的一個犯罪的一個偵查其實我們的警方在國外執法你也做得到啊而且這麼重大他牽涉的背景我剛剛一開始就把他的背景告訴你牽涉的這個黨政人士這麼多牽涉的金額這麼大然後面目全非你可以說他已經死亡了嗎這個東西不是這不是可以隨便可以做決定的你要確認是他本人喔"},{"start":4921.314,"end":4946.087,"text":"次長這件事情我會繼續再追查下去那次長那個檢察總統被提名的徐錫強回答民眾黨的問卷當中你有看過他的問卷回答嗎我有看過你有看不能那個請教次長次長今天是次長代表徐被提名的回答到有一句話說在過去會看到的司法關說或上級施壓已經不太看到了請問這個次長徐被提名所謂的上級施壓你認為具體內容是什麼是怎麼樣的施壓法"},{"start":4952.302,"end":4971.152,"text":"他在回答問卷的時候白紙黑字過去的司法官說上級施壓現在已經不太看得到了那你認為他講的上級施壓是什麼呢我認同我們許備提名人的一個說法因為我們在辦案上以我擔任檢察官的工作裡面我也從來沒有遇過上級長官的事情"},{"start":4971.212,"end":4993.597,"text":"你沒有遇過那你知道嗎他這樣子寫啊他在白紙黑字上這樣寫那你知道嗎有沒有上級我想徐輝迪明人他一定也是在當檢察官的過程中一定都是嚴守我們的我們看都是看證據啦也看程序然後也會注意保障人權我們不會去看說什麼長官來施壓我們就改變我們的看法這是檢察官基本的素養好 次長次長那我們請暫停一下謝謝"},{"start":4994.557,"end":5017.222,"text":"你難道忘了彭坤業案嗎當年黃國昌立委揭發時任高檢署長官檢察官彭坤業在桃園地檢署期間接受前任法務部長那時候他擔任國安委諮詢委員邱泰山官說這個不法利益超過5億成為法界的一大醜聞市長你知道哪些機關曾提出就這個案子我剛剛講這個案子有提出報告更新我們搞嗎你知道嗎"},{"start":5019.169,"end":5031.925,"text":"你不知道 我讓次長看次長你看高檢署有提出調查報告監察院有提出新聞稿但是最終怎麼樣呢法務部就讓彭坤業提早退休免罰官逃過一劫"},{"start":5033.707,"end":5051.829,"text":"這就是法務部處理的方式嗎?你能接受這樣的結果嗎?連承認法務部部長帶頭關說都來進行關說,那人民怎麼能相信檢調系統不存在上級施壓呢?所以面對這麼大的事件被護航,難怪人民對司法信任度一直都是三成多,我就形容的死當啦"},{"start":5052.91,"end":5072.72,"text":"那次長您今天是代表部長來行政司法最高的機關就是法務部那您今天代表次長部長我想請教你你是否願意真的認真去面對思考如何改變不要只求任內無事可以平安下莊好嗎我今天給你很具體的資料喔"},{"start":5074.043,"end":5101.024,"text":"我們是那個常務次長是文官沒有安全下莊的問題就是我們如果說要講的是政務官的部分其實以法務部的角度來看您今天就代表部長出席代表部長出席只能回答部裡面相關問題我們還是如果說談論到說安全下莊的話那我們這個我是希望大家都沒有這樣的心態我今天就是把資料而且就一五一十的就分析給您聽"},{"start":5101.824,"end":5112.088,"text":"那我們希望很多事情要務必求真嘛那沒有上去 這個要把司法的這個低分嘛 適當的分數要把它講辦法把它贏回來嘛好 謝謝市長謝謝謝謝主席好 接下來我們有"},{"start":5129.042,"end":5139.329,"text":"好 接下來我們有請翁委員 翁曉琳委員質詢是 謝謝主席我們首先請防務部的馮長次好 麻煩副長"},{"start":5143.552,"end":5160.625,"text":"風策長好我想剛剛大家委員們的提案說明這次為什麼要修小額貪污的這個相關的條文呢最主要也是有鑒於就是在去年的時候曾經發生那32元的二手電鍋案那麼這個案子其實也引發社會的廣泛的討論那麼而且又在"},{"start":5165.387,"end":5191.886,"text":"這個讓大家回憶起過去以往常常屢見不顯的這種非常非常小的這個金錢上面所謂的這種侵占財務的這個相關的案子那麼我們知道其實因為在現行的貪污之罪條例底下這個罪侵本行五年以上的侵占職務上的財務罪這樣子的一個條文規定其實就有點像是用大炮這個去打小鳥"},{"start":5192.986,"end":5198.429,"text":"這個尤其是五萬元以下對於國民的法律情感來講認為其實他這個相對來說他的惡性是比較低的那麼當初貪污自罪條例的制定就是為了要治貪腐用重點結果沒想到因為基層人員的這樣常常會不小心會可能觸犯這樣的罪而受到嚴重的處罰那麼我們剛剛之前也都說了其實大法官在"},{"start":5219.438,"end":5233.365,"text":"是自790號112年宪判自13號裡面都已經也指出了不論情節輕重一律可以重刑是違反罪行相當原則的但我們知道法務部事實上在先前"},{"start":5235.486,"end":5246.792,"text":"113年的時候其實當時也提出了修法至少這本席看到你們在114年9月份的新聞稿裡面就提出法務部針對貪污之罪條例第12條有進行修正草案那麼請問為什麼你們當時在113年5月31號就已經送到行政院去做審查114年的8月15號也完成審查了"},{"start":5261.32,"end":5268.691,"text":"那這個案子你們到現在都沒有送到立法院時隔將近兩年的時間這個原因是什麼"},{"start":5269.892,"end":5299.098,"text":"跟委員報告首先要非常感謝我們文委員對於我們這個貪污執罪條例的這樣的一個就是看到的這個法重情輕的這一個部分那事實上前一陣子社會各界裡面像電國案還有一些案件都有一些這樣的一個聲音出來那本部也非常的重視因為事實上就如同委員所講的就是說五萬元以下然後有時候這樣子在一些情節情為情節這個就是說很輕微的一個狀況之中"},{"start":5299.958,"end":5325.918,"text":"是不是都用貪污條例一律適用這個部分確實造成了大家一些的討論那法務部這邊也很重視那目前我們提出的相關的這樣的一個也說免除期刑的部分跟委員的版本這也是相同的那我們這部分在本席是要請問就是說為什麼你們這麼久都沒有送到立法院法案聽不了行政院的原因是什麼我們現在目前的案子還是在行政院這邊你們經過審查了嗎已經審查完畢了嘛 對不對"},{"start":5329.778,"end":5340.104,"text":"已經審查三次了審查三次都還沒有定論都還沒有定論是行政院不支持還是哪一個單位不支持我們會盡速來處理這事情"},{"start":5340.802,"end":5364.756,"text":"是你們現在處理的腳步真的是非常非常緩慢那麼其實本席已經也觀察到很多的相關的修法的草案還有辦法那都押在行政院那我不知道說這個行政院為什麼不尊重你們法務部的意見更何況我覺得這個案子是有社會共識草野也有個別委員都有提出來"},{"start":5365.436,"end":5384.843,"text":"這個沒有什麼太爭議的案子應該行政院就要儘速送出來那常常都是因為行政院沒有對案法務部沒有對案送到立法院然後呢我們大家在討論的時候當時看起來沒什麼問題結果等到三讀的通過之後馬上又有外界可能有"},{"start":5386.563,"end":5413.479,"text":"人會攻擊說這都是某某委員的提案那其實法務本身有提案啊所以本席希望說法務部應該要盡速的去催一催行政院很多重要的法案不要壓在行政院那包含接下來我們要討論的這個刑法八十條的修正案也是一樣的其實你們行政院在2026年1月29號就已經通過刑法第八十條的修正草案了嘛"},{"start":5414.039,"end":5431.994,"text":"但是這個案子也沒有送到立法院來有嗎跟委員報告現在2月9號的時候會嫌司法院那所以現在問題是卡在司法院嗎可以請司法院廳長說明一下嗎這案子現在是卡在司法院嗎"},{"start":5434.133,"end":5450.103,"text":"是 報告委員那個行政院他在2月9號發文那司法院在2月10號收到他彙嫌的函文那我們經過36個工作天已經在4月10號統一彙嫌並函附行政院所以這個部分本院已經統一彙嫌"},{"start":5451.226,"end":5470.144,"text":"那這36個工作天針對這個追訴權時效它所涉及的重要性以及相關爭議來講我認為是合理的時間比如說我們今天好 了解了所以謝謝司法院已經在4月10號就回覆了因為這個基本上根據本席了解大法官其實現在也在受理相關的案子那麼如果說我們能夠加快"},{"start":5470.924,"end":5488.841,"text":"腳步把這個所謂的比較不合理的條文修正的話那我想其實也就不勞這些五人大法官要再去做出所謂的違憲的判決那麼這個部分的話希望就是行政院能夠盡速將刑法八十條的修正案"},{"start":5489.962,"end":5502.154,"text":"提到立法院來因為我們今天只是第一次開始進行詢答等到之後進行審查時候本席希望就已經能夠看到法務部的版本可以嗎請問次長"},{"start":5505.564,"end":5514.487,"text":"會跟行政院這邊去報告這件事情一定要嚴正的反映這件事情針對這個議題本身還有一個問題想請教就是因為我們知道其實證據的重要性但是在性侵案件裡面尤其是未成年的性侵案要求被害人陳述必須要有補強證據這時候可能會很困難尤其是我們現在等於說追溯權"},{"start":5529.812,"end":5550.667,"text":"18歲以後才開始這個計算的話那麼事實上如果案件是發生在20年前常常這種監視器或是生物的樣本都已經消失了所以在這裡是不是有可能可以參考國外的經驗針對延遲揭露的案件延遲揭露的性侵案件可以調降補強證據的門檻"},{"start":5553.905,"end":5567.098,"text":"跟委員報告就是說補強證據這個部分各體檢署的檢察官在偵辦的時候他會依照這個實際的一個情況來做一個判斷就在這個部分上是不是要多強的補強他們在個案中會做一個審慎的一個判斷"},{"start":5567.935,"end":5589.424,"text":"是 那本席是希望說能夠借助就是參考國外的經驗然後另外一個就是可以調降補強證據的門檻還可以透過專業的司法心理鑑定來作為法庭上面有效的補強證據那這部分的話 不曉得刑事庭庭長這裡是不是可以接受類似像這樣的一個國外的做法"},{"start":5590.656,"end":5609.536,"text":"是關於這個證據法則的部分呢這個尤其是關於性侵害被害人他所做的陳述不得作為唯一證據那確實有補強法則的適用那關於這個補強法則他同時也是實務上在適用上他常常會有一些寬延不等的這種認定那關於性侵害補強法則其實"},{"start":5610.757,"end":5636.792,"text":"我們很願意參考所有國外的見解以及大法官關於這個補強法則所揭示的適用那以及他對於被告所造成的影響來做綜合通盤的考量那這部分其實最高法院在補強法則的適用上也有相關的見解我相信他可以均衡的去保障這個被害人的訴訟權以及被告的訴訟權OK很好那我本是希望說這個刑法80條如果順利通過的話相關的配套措施要請法務部還有"},{"start":5640.254,"end":5664.909,"text":"這個司法院法院這邊都能夠從被害人的角度出發然後給予更多的在證據上面的有利的一個判斷好那最後一個問題我想請教就是說是一個結構性的問題就是有關於檢察官的上訴權其實這個可能也是我們接下來立法院所要推動的這個有關於羈押抗告是不是要限定次數或者是說應該就直接由法院自為"},{"start":5665.729,"end":5681.214,"text":"裁定的這樣的一個修法的規定那麼我想請教次長你是不是支持限制檢察官的上訴權包括羈押裁定的抗告還是只是憲據就是程序違法才能夠上訴"},{"start":5682.213,"end":5702.935,"text":"跟委員報告跟委員報告其實我們的這個上訴的制度它是整套的那我們實務上也常常會發現說這個不罰說有時候一審他是判無罪二審有罪然後這樣有時候這個層級上雖然多但他最終會發現到真實所以我們在這個檢察官的甚至上訴權"},{"start":5703.936,"end":5730.843,"text":"這個部分也可能會這個產生就失去監督這個法院的一個裁判功能這個部分上就是說它有通盤性的一個考量所以上訴權這個我認為還是有必要所以你們到現在還是認為是有必要不過我想這個議題因為也引起社會的關注就是檢察官是不是有這個押人取供的這個情況而且同時呢不斷的這個針對羈押的裁定抗告"},{"start":5733.3,"end":5747.419,"text":"行使抗告這個其實相當程度也是對於被羈押人他的權益可能會造成一定的侵害一定的影響所以因為已經有不少委員有提案"},{"start":5747.97,"end":5771.555,"text":"那麼看是之後針對欺壓抗告的次數做一定的限制或者是說是由上級法院自行來決定那這個議題我覺得是接下來我們會要持續關注的而且重點關注的議題那也希望法務部能夠儘速的要針對這個議題提出你們的看法然後甚至修正版本好不好好 那我以上今天詢問就到這邊 謝謝好 謝謝歐文 謝謝司長"},{"start":5786.786,"end":5805.388,"text":"好 接下來我們有請審發會委員詢答主席 我們請法務部馮次長好 有請馮次長先生好 委員好"},{"start":5806.875,"end":5830.82,"text":"市長好今天我們議程是排了四個案子剛才大概委員大家比較集中關心的一個是貪污治罪條例第12條修正案另外就是有關於刑法第80條性侵害犯罪的追溯期限的問題我今天大概也是針對這兩個問題來跟就教市長"},{"start":5835.479,"end":5860.944,"text":"有關這個貪污制裁條例的修正條文草案剛才大家都說了這個事實上社會有共識而且事實上我們法務部也在這個113年的5月10號這個在兩年前就已經公告了那剛才這個翁委員有請教不過這個次長是沒有回答我不知道是次長到底為什麼在行政院卡這麼久"},{"start":5861.924,"end":5878.989,"text":"跟委員講有什麼樣的考量跟爭議事實上各機關還有我們的行政院他們在對法案上面來講其實都是會很慎重的看待我知道但是這個案子有點久了但我們也大概經過了三次並沒有一個懈怠我知道三次有什麼樣的爭點為什麼會三次"},{"start":5882.05,"end":5903.868,"text":"針對於說貪污自罪條例上面來講就是說我們的一個部分已經漸漸的就是限縮到大家都能夠接受那所以這個部分上我們會儘速處理這樣子啦 因為你也沒有辦法也一直沒有回答說這三次到底有什麼樣的爭議那我個人我的理解就是其實你們的法案你們公告的法案其實並不是只單修12條你們是連11條一起修正 對不對"},{"start":5907.991,"end":5927.299,"text":"所以你們的這個條文齁其實我看大部分的委員都是跟你跟你們這個法務部公告的條文是一樣的但是有一個地方很不一樣就是你們這裡你們的條文這個第二項你們第十二條修正第二項你們說犯前條第一項至第五項之罪但是事實上前條目前只有四項啦"},{"start":5928.939,"end":5951.499,"text":"跟委員報告我們當就是說剛剛講說我們的修正第四條到第六條之最我們還有一個徵定行會國際組織的官方我要講就是這個啦你們提出來的其實是兩條啦11條跟12條配套一起修那現在所有的委員提出來都是針對12條而已嗎那12條"},{"start":5954.281,"end":5972.709,"text":"他是12條所以他是前條的4項的條文但是你們因為有11條修正所以你們前條變成5項條文嘛一個是這個跟國際法跟這個國際公約來這個接軌嘛那另外一個是針對法人的這個罰金法的部分"},{"start":5973.829,"end":6001.324,"text":"這是增加了這兩個對不對我們還有那個布板裡面有第11條跟6之1條所以說會比較就是討論的東西會比較多但是你們因為這個相關的討論而卡到這個第12條事實上是會有高度共識的案子所以這個變成我們今天委員會先安排這個看起來今天可能要通過了那如果今天要出委員會那今天如果出委員會你們的條文未來11條修正之後不是12條還要再修一次"},{"start":6004.373,"end":6025.707,"text":"這個部分我們現在的問題你們敢敢看啦你們跟行政院這邊來反映說這個是不是你要怎麼樣因應這個問題你如果有這樣的空窗期就是我們今天修法過了前四條那你們未來還要再修第十一條你們十一條我們可能通過了還沒刪讀你們十一條條文出來了"},{"start":6027.967,"end":6050.437,"text":"所以我們還是希望說能夠給我們一點時間啦就我們針對這個東西這個等一下我們再大力討論的時候看委員會大家怎麼橫著啦因為已經等你們這麼久了這個是第一個啦第二個有關刑法八十條的部分刑法八十條這個其實這個我看大家也都有高度共識啦那在這個"},{"start":6052.23,"end":6057.212,"text":"事實上我113年我這邊有秀出一個113年我們本委員會的會議紀錄這個那時候113年5月的時候質詢就我在這邊質詢那個時候也是針對這一條你們這個時候法務部的意見是說你們經過這個三次的這個行修會議"},{"start":6073.419,"end":6088.92,"text":"你們認為我們的刑法我們這個有關性侵害的法定刑已經比其他國家來得重了而且我們的時效也比其他國家來得長了所以那時候三次刑修會議是傾向於不修法不過這是那個時候啦"},{"start":6089.821,"end":6102.486,"text":"但是你們在113年的5月27號114年8月你們提出預告版本你們事實上也是修了跟大家一樣不過我想今天既然可能會進入逐條可能會討論這一條這個目前大概"},{"start":6105.39,"end":6131.3,"text":"有總共你們那時候我那時候質詢的時候其實只有兩個委員的版本那現在因為你們公告了出來之後就代出了29個委員的版本了大家都參考你們的版本就趕快提案了提了29個版本那這29個版本呢這個其中有的這個變成有的人修80條有的人修修這個這個有人修80條有人修80"},{"start":6137.355,"end":6161.025,"text":"83條有人修83條有人修80條甚至還有加80條之一的啦這個大家的意思可能意思都一樣但是修的法條不一樣修的法條不一樣不是說只是法律放在不同條文而已他在法律結構意義上是不一樣的我們現在目前法務部的版本是修80條修80條的意思就是說"},{"start":6164.656,"end":6185.389,"text":"我們這個追溯時效它的起算時間去改變追溯期效的起算時間對不對但是追溯期效的這個時效的這個起算期間按照這個一樣是在80條裡面它規定就是前向期間至犯罪成立之時起算"},{"start":6186.767,"end":6198.185,"text":"從犯罪之時 時間起算時效 這個是基本時效的基本原理如果是繼續犯的話 到行為終了時起算對 繼續犯到行為終了這個是基本原理你們去改變了這個起算點"},{"start":6200.851,"end":6227.786,"text":"一般這個像民間就有一些團體他們就認為還有也有委員的版本他們就認為說不應該去改這個起算期間應該是去暫停時效去把時效停止如果你要停止時效就是說我時效一樣從犯罪時期算但是你在未成年之前這個是停止計算的這個停止計算這個是民間現在一般主流意見如果是這樣就是應該修83條對不對"},{"start":6231.007,"end":6249.852,"text":"83條他就是有關追溯權時效他停止進行變成一種訴訟障礙的理由嘛對不對市長這80條跟83條差別在這裡嗎是對那事實上國際的立法例上面有一些是像我們也有委員提到用80條之一他完全沒有追溯時效這個"},{"start":6252.321,"end":6275.968,"text":"在國際立法例上面也有好像美國加拿大他們都是就是有關性侵害案件他就完全沒有追溯時效完全排除追溯時效這個這個的話就立法就八十我們有委員提了八十條之一的立法這三種立法例我們法務部現在目前採取的是八十條的八十條這是你們把改變這個起算起算的的的點啦齁那這個這個"},{"start":6278.462,"end":6301.773,"text":"跟一般民間團體大家認為說應該是要修83條才對應該修83條才對那不過如果我們在法理上面來爭執這個可能又延宕了我們的修法所以我們是如果說從80來修80條也是可以接受但是目前就是剛才大家也都一直關心的我們行政院是在"},{"start":6303.737,"end":6327.657,"text":"在這個2月29號也就是兩個月前會前司法院那我們看到司法院的報告上個禮拜決定我們今天議程的時候我們看到司法院的報告司法院還沒有會前出來啊結果剛剛司法院回答說啊有我們4月10號已經函付4月10號就上禮拜五啦我們的議程出來之後司法院趕快函付給行政院那現在所以"},{"start":6328.664,"end":6335.17,"text":"對行政院來講是4月10日禮拜五收到到今天才收到所以我想先請司法院我只問一個啦你們韓服的結果是什麼同意"},{"start":6341.755,"end":6365.402,"text":"報告委員 司法院經過4月10號下午開院會我們是同意會選同意會選就是按照行政院的版本嗎是的對 好 謝謝請回 我就這個問題因為我沒有看到你們函附的文我不曉得你們函附的結果是怎麼樣所以現在簡單講函附回行政院了行政院在多久之後可以送到立法院來報告委員 我們回去會跟行政院這邊"},{"start":6366.246,"end":6395.468,"text":"就要表達說委員的意見如果你們可以很快的送到這個立法院來那我等一下我們這個主要審查的時候我就會主張說那我們先保留協商即使就算出文會我們保留協商讓你們在協商期之間趕快把你們的案子送進立法院來這是一個辦法是不是可以讓我們回去因為司法院的會嫌才剛剛進來對 剛剛進來 上禮拜五才那我們也要看一下司法院會嫌的部分在行政院這邊我們再做一個"},{"start":6396.26,"end":6421.531,"text":"好那這個這個齁但是其實齁這29個版本裡面我剛剛講說29個版本裡面有各式各樣不一樣的的這個修法啦齁那各國的立法例也有各種不一樣但是這裡面有一個重點了啦齁就其他的這些我們都可以討論但是我們現在目前修了80條針對刑法裡面的性侵害犯罪那麼有關於兒少"},{"start":6423.7,"end":6430.621,"text":"而少性剝削條例裡面的其他的這些時效目前按照我們只修80條是沒有排除的喔時效沒有排除"},{"start":6431.741,"end":6460.061,"text":"衛福部針對這個部分會有他們的法條上他們會...我知道我們法務部的意見就是但這個其實其實你就法議衡量來講兒童少年性剝削防治條例它所保護的兒童跟少年跟少年的這個性自主權這個是法議這是比成年人一般普遍的成年人他法議還更嚴重但是我們現在在刑法裡面有用80條把它排除時效了但是我們兒童跟少年性剝削防治條例沒有排除"},{"start":6462.386,"end":6488.643,"text":"這個應該是這個你們法務部的態度就是這樣法務部就說因為這個主管是衛福部所以我們有委員提案就在我們八十條裡面是直接把這個兒少性撥交條例的這些條文特別法把它列到刑法裡面來排除時效這樣子的立法例當然是你們不贊成也不妥就是說用這個普通法來排除"},{"start":6489.67,"end":6509.829,"text":"排除特別法的時效 這個在立法會上非常奇怪啦沒有辦法這樣處理啦 對所以一定要在兒少條例裡面或是這個防治條例裡面來修改啦但是這個部分你們的態度就但這個很抱歉 這個主管機關是衛福部對 那我們本部沒有辦法來衛福部今天有代表來衛福部"},{"start":6515.922,"end":6535.646,"text":"公委員報告依照這個兒少性剝削防治條例第31條70號規定跟未滿16歲之人有對價之性交會猥褻行為者依刑法之規定處罰所以原則上它有部分其實是跟刑法依照刑法的規定 你就說對價關係的部分了你那全部的這個整部整部的兒少這個我跟你講這個當然今天這個我們"},{"start":6541.627,"end":6558.572,"text":"這個只是一個副司長副司長來那要代表著但衛福部在這方面真的是動作太慢我們今天可能修法就刑法80條我們就修正通過了結果我們兒童跟這個少年性剝削防治條例裡面我們的時效卻沒有排除你們這個衛福部我最後啦很抱歉時間到其實你們衛福部"},{"start":6567.782,"end":6595.977,"text":"其實這樣是完全是真的是有待遇者你們連其他齁其他你們在這個性騷擾你們性騷擾防治法這個性騷擾防治法跟這個性別教育平衡法裡面你們都已經排除了都已經把成年人的那個時效排除了性騷擾都已經成年人的時效都排除了你們這個兒童少年性侵害這個性剝削防治裡面還沒有去排除"},{"start":6598.001,"end":6613.873,"text":"這部分請妳回去反映給部裡面好不好好 我們以併納入來處理 謝謝好 以上 剩下的意見我就等一下主條的時候我們再來討論好 謝謝申委員那麼接下來我們有請張雅琳委員發言"},{"start":6625.731,"end":6630.346,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們有請法務部好 有請次長"},{"start":6634.499,"end":6659.045,"text":"市長好那首先我想先了解一個狀況因為兩個星期前我才在這個委員會裡面去質詢過司法院的罰警制度但沒想過兩個禮拜之後法務部這邊也出了狀況最近台北地檢署發生了一件非常離譜的事情一名同時涉及毒品案件又被新北地檢署通緝的男子被送到北檢之後呢竟然因為"},{"start":6659.925,"end":6689.345,"text":"疑似因為這個法警的交接沒有交接清楚直接在地檢署裡面被放走了我想一般民眾聽到這個新聞都會覺得非常的驚不可思議啦非常的驚訝因為大家會覺得說一個被通緝的人被帶進地檢署之後怎麼可能會被放走呢所以這件事情其實暴露了幾個很關鍵的問題這也是想要跟次長來討論的就是說人犯交接的流程通緝身份的確認還有最後放行的程序到底有沒有程度這個程序上的漏洞"},{"start":6690.345,"end":6718.579,"text":"我們現在在這個全國的各地檢署對於法警在交接人訓人犯後訓後保解送以及最後的放行流程到底有沒有一套一致而且明確的SOP請教次長跟委員報告就是說我們法務部這邊也會再加強教育訓練因為發生這種事情我想民眾也都就覺得不樂見因為這個確實是如果是法警在交接的時候有這樣的一個狀況那我們到底有沒有一個明確的SOP"},{"start":6719.039,"end":6740.903,"text":"我們有我們的相關上就是說這個就是說對接這個叫通緝犯然後以及就是說在罰金管控上我們有我們的制度北建也有他的制度所以說就是說有了制度之後還是要落實所以說針對這個事情上有沒有在環節上有些狀況的部分的話我們會請北建這邊就是再來注意然後再調好因為我想這個對民眾來說我覺得實在是"},{"start":6744.664,"end":6760.379,"text":"會覺得太驚訝了所以是不是可以說回去要好好的我想你們應該也在做檢討了啦這個到底上面為什麼沒有辦法落實所以這個部分的檢討報告是不是也可以提供給我們好嗎 那大概什麼時候可以提供呢你們現在預估什麼時候會提出這個檢討報告可以一個月嗎"},{"start":6761.263,"end":6784.85,"text":"一個月是嗎好喔好謝謝好那接下來就回到我們今天的重點就是有關於這個刑法八十條那我想今天剛剛在這個發言的時候其實我也說明了為什麼這個兒少性侵的這個追溯期限呢應該有必要來去做一些調整因為最主要是因為大多數是發生在熟人性侵特別是家人家內性侵或是師長他相信的人等等的"},{"start":6785.41,"end":6808.805,"text":"這都會造成兒少要出來講這件事情是非常的困難那我現在看我們的立法院跟這個法務部其實已經有一個相當的共識但是我今天想要討論的是犯罪被害人的補償機制就是說在我們的犯保法第63條裡面其實是有一個請求時效那在這我們提出了這個請求時效過去經常被大家詬病"},{"start":6810.766,"end":6838.653,"text":"那現在我看到了就是說法務部提出了一個新的設計叫做障礙適由簡單來說就是說這個被害人在原本的身體期限快到之前的一年內因為可能是因為和加害人有共同生活或照顧關係或者是因為性侵造成嚴重創傷或者是受到了威脅控制那就可以在第一次向警察或檢察官說出受害經過的一年內再提出補償申請"},{"start":6840.393,"end":6864.531,"text":"我想我肯定這樣子的制度是有在前進我也理解法務部這樣子的設計的出發點但是因為這個兒少性侵犯和一般犯罪還是非常的不一樣因為很多孩子不是有權利而不主張而是在那個時間點還是沒有辦法說出來對不對所以我想請教就是法務部既然已經理解了孩子其實有說不出來的難處那為什麼還要做這樣子的限制呢因為他"},{"start":6865.151,"end":6888.786,"text":"孩子還是很難去說我因為當時被可能自己的家人性侵所以我才沒有申請他還是沒有辦法講出來啊能力上面就是做不到嘛所以我認為這樣子的設計還是太嚴苛了想請教次長這個是不是還可以做修正那第二個就是說如果我們法律只有列出這幾種障礙事由的時候未來在審查上會不會是變成另外一種高門檻"},{"start":6891.194,"end":6915.676,"text":"謝謝委員的這樣的一個提醒就是委員的這個對於我們這樣的這個這個性被性這個兒少的這個部分的保護其實我們跟法務部我們都是一樣那我們目前跟委員報告就是說我們的這個犯罪被害人的保障法的這個部分條文修正草案現在因為他的進度上就是公告就是說我們是就是說做那個法案的一個預告"},{"start":6916.297,"end":6939.235,"text":"那這個部分上都還可以有一些意見上我們這邊都還可以做一些調整好 那就是說我希望就是說在這件事情上面呢我想民間有許多的學者在主張說只要案件已經進入這個司法的機關調查或者檢察官已經起訴就不應該再讓被害人因為失效而被排除在這樣子的補償之外"},{"start":6940.235,"end":6968.529,"text":"這樣子的方向我希望就是說在我們這次預告之後收集完大家的意見之後我們可以再去做一個更細緻的調整讓我們的兒少被害人他的補償這件權利不會被消失可以嗎謝謝委員調整我們會盡速的就是收集各界的意見後報行政院做安整的審查好那再來最後一件事情就是我國的這個犯罪這個貪污治罪條例那接下來這個可能要請司法院抱歉"},{"start":6975.838,"end":7001.42,"text":"抱歉法務部還不能走法務委員加請司法院兩個就是說這個我們長期受重刑化的一個思維影響容易把性質差異很大的案件放在同一個高刑度的框架來處理那我想如果沒有足夠的分流跟層次也可能違反比例原則讓法律失去一個精細評價的能力所以今天這個第12條的修法重點就是針對於金額已經是比較低的清潔比較輕微的個案呢"},{"start":7001.94,"end":7017.177,"text":"是不是可以有一些調整的空間而不是一律落入這個過重的刑法那法務部其實也有提到這個12條的真定免除期刑也是在除了減刑之外有一個具體個案中可作免刑判決的一個條件"},{"start":7019.68,"end":7036.97,"text":"那但是呢我想今天跟大家先討論一下這個嚴格就過去在62年在8月7號修正案當時的條文是規定第4條到第6條各款之罪輕微而且所得或所圖得財物在三圈圓之下是適用有較輕處罰規定的刑法"},{"start":7038.771,"end":7064.646,"text":"所以在當時的立法思考其實不是在貪污制裁條例裡面調整刑度而是認為某些非常小而非常輕微的案件可以回到一般處罰比較輕的法律來處理可是可以看到在八十一年六月三十號的修法制度又改了原本的三千被提高成五萬塊的新台幣而且法律效果也從適用較輕處罰規定之刑罰或其他法律改成"},{"start":7066.087,"end":7086.092,"text":"清其刑也就是說立法者當時是只針對情節輕微金額較低的案件在貪污之罪條例的架構中保留了減刑空間那所以在這個法律嚴格我們看到了兩件事情第一個就是這個金額的門檻是立法政策的選擇的結果不是一個不能討論也不能檢討的數字"},{"start":7087.372,"end":7097.411,"text":"那第二个既然当年可以从三千调整到五万块就表示立法者本身就承认了小儿案件的界限会随着时代背景而有需要重新设定"},{"start":7099.065,"end":7118.741,"text":"所以我想了解就是說從過去我們可以看到法律的嚴格從當初不是五萬塊當初為什麼是五萬塊或是兩萬塊或是三萬塊其實我們看不到更明確的說明所以請教法務部啦針對這樣子多年的五萬元的標準你們有沒有重新檢討過它是否合理那原因又是什麼"},{"start":7120.645,"end":7148.876,"text":"那這個金額是不是提高這個部分會通盤的一個檢討那並考量個人的法律的情感去審查說這個部分是不是修正因為事實上五萬元這個部分到底是不是說夠高了那這個部分其實是一個非常判斷的問題那我們目前在這個部分上還是以五萬塊來做判斷所以我想這是在那我請教一下司法院好了好不好"},{"start":7150.765,"end":7178.998,"text":"好因為我想這一題如果說法通過之後最重要還是回到司法院這邊要做法院要做判決但是大家都在談這個情節要怎麼去做評估這其實是非常的抽象那法官在實務上面要如何判斷情節輕微呢是只看金額還是要看這個被告的職位收受的利益的太陽還有對公務連結的損害是否反覆發生等等的所以我認為就是說這個在法院的實務上面"},{"start":7179.798,"end":7186.46,"text":"你們會不會認為這個是會有一些要更說得更清楚的地方呢?"},{"start":7187.641,"end":7214.532,"text":"報告委員關於這個貪污資歷條例12條它的這個門檻金額到底是要多少那這個是一個高度就誠如剛剛次長所言它是一個高度價值判斷的問題那至於說依人民之社會通念如何才為最為適當這個部分尊重大院之決定那在司法實務上呢即使沒有這樣的條文其實我們也有實質違法性的理論來做一個具體的因應只不過關於實質違法性的"},{"start":7214.992,"end":7235.544,"text":"在怎麼樣的狀況下屬於情節輕微如同委員剛剛所提到他必須綜合考量各種因素那也會涉及個別法官關於個案的這個情節以及這個審酌的這個情況不同而異那所以說如果這個本大院今天這個討論這個貪污罪條例第12條去訂出一個比較適當的一個門檻讓法院來統一適用那對於這一個這一個"},{"start":7242.228,"end":7255.781,"text":"整個法律適用的平等一致性會有比較好的效果以上報告所以我想這個是不是我們要有一個比較清楚的立法理由甚至是提供實務實用的方向才會讓我們在實務的判決上面有個比較清楚的issue呢"},{"start":7257.673,"end":7276.068,"text":"這個部分立法理由它是可以補充這個相關的這個有關這個門檻那但是門檻我會建議就是說如果它是一個比較明確的門檻有利於法官來適用是比較好的選擇那至於說在具體的狀況那這個部分再由法官來做量刑的橫著"},{"start":7277.315,"end":7298.177,"text":"好 了解那我想最後就是再總結一下就是說我想站在我們的立場上面就是貪污其實是反貪污是不能退的一件事情是絕對要被捍衛的一件事情那根據聯合國反貪腐公約真正有說服力的反貪法制也不是說把所有的案件都用同樣的嚴厲的方式來處理而是讓重大的貪污要受到嚴厲的"},{"start":7299.498,"end":7318.252,"text":"對嚴厲的譴責同時也讓情節顯然比較輕微的案件有一個合理的區分那這樣子的話我想這個民眾就可以看到法律不是變鬆而是變得更穩更準更能夠服眾那也希望就是今天剛剛在說的一些細節的部分法務部也要再做審慎的處理這樣子謝謝"},{"start":7322.449,"end":7342.06,"text":"好 謝謝張委員我先做一個會議程序的宣告待會在盧志強委員選擇完畢之後我們就休息五分鐘那接下來我們先請林楚瑩委員 林楚瑩委員 林楚瑩委員不在鍾嘉斌委員 鍾嘉斌委員 鍾嘉斌委員不在好 我們有請徐宇珍委員"},{"start":7353.404,"end":7381.173,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請法務部馮次長司法院許廷長好 請馮次長跟許廷長次長好 廷長好有關有一個案子要跟您這邊請教就是印尼籍的失聯移工就是以一萬元的代價將銀行的帳戶賣給詐騙集團導致三名台灣民眾受騙損失金額是11.9萬那法院的判決是判處"},{"start":7382.994,"end":7410.57,"text":"四個月的徒刑並克罰金一萬並要求服刑後驅逐出境但是被告呢早在判決前四個月就已經搭機離境導致判決書完全無法執行形同廢紙那請問許廷長這樣的一個狀況我們的判決還有什麼意義嗎就好像對著空氣判決因為他早在這個判刑前四個月就已經離境了那請問這是不是現行的普遍的現象呢請問許廷長"},{"start":7412.698,"end":7436.346,"text":"報告委員 這個部分應該是個案上有一些問題但不表示整體制度都有失靈的現象這個部分我來報告 是關於這一件案子其實當初這個被告他是經過通緝盜案後來他就是被收容那營運署他台北收容所他是在113年6月12日他就發函給七龍地檢署"},{"start":7436.906,"end":7459.398,"text":"而且告知 它是依照移民法 這個如果移民法來告知這個預定在6月25號執行遣返但是基隆地檢診 它在6月25日起訴 疑審到基隆地院的時候它並沒有去註記或是給法院這個訊息那法院它收到這個起訴書 那在113年7月1日收案那在7月4號改行檢疫判決處刑程序"},{"start":7459.838,"end":7471.531,"text":"那這段期間他都沒有在獲檢察署轉資那移民署他是認為說我已經依照法律規定告知司法機關而且請這個基隆地檢署在這個部分做適當的那所以這個是算基隆地檢署的措施嗎"},{"start":7472.287,"end":7494.735,"text":"如果當初基隆地檢署他在起訴的時候有所註記或許可以比較可以避免這個那當然不能說全部都是地檢署的疏失因為這個他在收容中那收容也可能被遣返所以那請問一下那次長最可靠的方式就是法官如果他也能夠限制出行出海那這個部分其實他就有一個司法的控制控制他能夠到庭來執行"},{"start":7496.051,"end":7511.421,"text":"那請問一下市長這個狀況我想就是委員講的這個部分我們法部真的是高度重視因為事實上我們的司法就是說在最終就是說要能夠像委員講的判下去要達到它的一個司法的效果"},{"start":7511.781,"end":7527.04,"text":"否則的話如果說是沒有辦法執行的話那這樣當然就會造成說民眾對於司法上面的一個這個信任度就會不足那這個部分上金融遞減的一個就有沒有剛剛的這個狀況或做法還有沒有辦法更進一步的部分我們回去會請金融遞減署這邊研究"},{"start":7527.861,"end":7549.473,"text":"因為這個部分我們不希望說事實上警方很辛苦的抓人然後檢察官可能起訴法官審理都耗費了這麼多的一個行政的一個時間跟資源結果到最後卻抓不到人因為人早就遣返了其實這我覺得是在我們通報的上面事實上是有很我覺得有失靈的狀況那這個部分的話可能要請我們法務部跟司法局這邊"},{"start":7550.453,"end":7578.758,"text":"大家都要通靈合作要怎麼樣才能夠杜絕這樣的狀況否則的話這樣詐騙的這個案件這個頻傳那只要大家就是想說詐騙集團就是我就找這樣的這個失聯義工來去那個帳戶來去做我們詐騙集團的這個這個掩護的話那事實上等於抓到也沒事啊因為他就遣返啊所以這個部分可能要麻煩一下那尤其是現在的入出國籍移民法第36條規定遣返前10日的通報"},{"start":7579.438,"end":7599.023,"text":"屬於刑事的通知所以目前在司法案件爆料之下檢方跟法院根本沒有辦法在10天內看到通報而且在極短的時間內完成起訴或判決所以這樣的讓移工在台灣翻案非常的容易那所以針對這個部分有沒有什麼樣子的一個我們可以解決的方式"},{"start":7602.045,"end":7626.471,"text":"跟委員報告 其實利用移工還有一些公司的人頭賬戶這些來做詐騙的部分事實上我們現在都有注意到這個現象那針對這個部分上我們也會針對制度面以及我們的宣導面還有我們查緝面的部分來做落實那希望是說能夠杜絕掉就這樣子利用一些弱勢利用一些移工來做這樣的詐欺犯罪的一個行為"},{"start":7627.418,"end":7646.671,"text":"所以剛剛講到移工的部分,剛好最近勞動部說要開放印度的移工來台那當然引起非常大的各界的質疑尤其在一個公共政策的網路參與平台,才短短幾天就有三萬多人表達反對的意見"},{"start":7648.112,"end":7672.005,"text":"當然針對這樣子的移工的犯案之後尤其是這樣的一個案子移工犯案之後結果也就是這樣子就出境了完全沒有受到任何的裁決那民眾會有擔心這樣子的一個問題那所以在現在的這個司法的一個狀況之下如果這個漏洞沒有把它補好的話事實上在開放移工來台灣會讓大家覺得非常的擔心台灣會不會變成這樣子的一個犯罪天堂"},{"start":7675.683,"end":7687.255,"text":"我想我們會就我們的部分就是說做好我們該做的那個部分就是說針對於說犯罪後是不是他們會有逃亡的這一個部分我們會跟司法院這邊做好一個這個聯繫"},{"start":7689.083,"end":7711.01,"text":"當然我想其實現在人民對司法的不滿不是因為這個個案而已而是因為標準明顯的失衡像現在大家非常反彈就是法務部對於我們的清潔隊員電鍋案表示因為貪污製作條例的法定行眾不屬於刑事訴訟法可以違罪不舉的空間所以呢我們的這個基層清潔隊員僅未轉送一個殘值32.56元的舊電鍋給一個實荒的婦人"},{"start":7716.892,"end":7735.9,"text":"但是還是遭到起訴判有罪那反觀我們的監察委員前監察院秘書長私用公務車接送寵物美容然後送家人接送雞這些呢檢方最後卻以自付郵費順路使用等理由牽結認定無不法意圖這會讓人家看到的不是法律一致而是對基層從嚴對高官"},{"start":7739.202,"end":7766.681,"text":"所以次長請教一下檢察官現在用自付油錢來幫監委護航這叫沒有損害國庫但是呢請問公務車司機的薪水加班費是誰付的是監委自己付的還是全民納稅人付的車子的保養費車子的折舊費不用花公務預算來支付嗎所以這難道不是侵占公務資源為什麼到了監委手上就只要付了油錢就變成了私人的這個租賃車可以隨意接送寵物美容"},{"start":7767.521,"end":7791.739,"text":"送家人接送機呢其實法務部當然我們對具體的各辦原則上我們是我們不會去做干預不介入也不會指導我們會尊重甲官的行使職權但是這個案子已經造成對社會的一個非常他這個案件當然不會是指以說是不是支付油錢來做牽結啦他是依照刑法上面來講就是說針對考綜合的考量"},{"start":7792.319,"end":7809.731,"text":"是不是用車時間啊 頻率啊 實際支出等這個事件來去看說有沒有刑事上的不法那我要跟委員報告就是說刑事我們任何的一個事件裡面它可能會有刑事不法它也可能會有行政不法又或者是說這樣的觀感不好的問題它是有一個層次性的部分"},{"start":7810.531,"end":7836.92,"text":"那這件屬不屬於 屬於什麼?針對於我們的部分我們檢察官是在評斷說我們這個案件到之中有沒有在刑事不法上來做一個判斷那請問一下 請問一下次長就是說這兩案啦在人民的這個眼中其實就是明顯的這個輕重失衡喔一邊是32元的舊電鍋而且是要住石荒老的這個婦人一個是就是濫用公務車這樣子卻以牽結收藏那請問這兩案"},{"start":7839.801,"end":7864.68,"text":"法務部承不承認其實就是有明顯的這個輕重權衡其實因為每個案件它的狀況真的是不同我們就是委員提到的這個電鍋32元的這一個案子其實當時在台北市裡面他們的一個制度上就是說他們有一個就是洗物網就是你東西如果進去的話它事實上它是整個公用上那我們的這個清潔隊員他也知道這樣的一個狀況"},{"start":7865.601,"end":7892.417,"text":"所以事實上依照貪污罪條例的一個規定現在我們的法院也是判定是有罪的只是我們社會上會覺得說那侵佔這麼一個殘職只有32塊這樣只要用那麼重的條文來去判斷它是不是合適我們也同意說在這個刑侵法重的這個部分上要去做調整但是如何調整呢不是代表說今天說這樣的一個犯罪這樣的一個行為它還是屬於犯罪嘛"},{"start":7892.777,"end":7907.823,"text":"那所以這樣的一個行為我們在法令還沒有修之前我們還是要依法來判斷只是說跟委員報告您剛剛提到的那個很重要的部分說我們怎麼調整的話我們會針對說我們現在大概社會大界這個委員也在講說這個五萬塊以下"},{"start":7908.263,"end":7936.61,"text":"那我們有就是說增加了這個免除期刑的一個規定就是說萬一真的法院認定在具體個案上看到說真的有那麼可憐所以法務部也是贊成這樣子一個修法的一個方向我們會我們會朝這個方向對我想要不然的話大家都覺得每次都說尊重個案可是事實上民眾的反應是非常非常的沒辦法接受我覺得這是一個最基本的一個是非判斷的原則那也希望說針對這個部分我們要盡速的來修法不要再讓這樣子的一個"},{"start":7938.131,"end":7948.357,"text":"讓大家覺得是非就看到基層呢 這個法就很重那看到高官呢 就法清希望不要再有這樣的現象發生不會這樣好 謝謝好 謝謝徐委員那麼我們接下來有請羅志強委員發言有請法務部馮次長"},{"start":7967.386,"end":7993.925,"text":"好 有請馮次長然後刑事廳許廳長許廳長好 委員好次長 是台北市清潔隊員捐殘食32元的電鍋給十荒富人遭檢方以貪污治罪條例起訴然後士林地方法院判刑三個月"},{"start":7994.847,"end":8015.82,"text":"去年本席在司法法治委員會質詢我們的政部長的時候我說這是一個缺乏同理心沒有溫度的司法離國民情感太遠給人的感覺是捐鍋者豬詐騙者猴好人被懲罰壞人逍遙法外你知道當時部長怎麼回答我嗎"},{"start":8017.725,"end":8036.133,"text":"我告訴你 他說此案確實是秦清法重也是高年也有講到秦清法重承諾法務部會提出修法然後其實部長也不只是對本席承諾我幫您回憶一下去年12月3日陳培宇委員質詢的時候"},{"start":8037.745,"end":8047.18,"text":"部長說這個案子確實是情輕法重然後法務部已經提出貪污治罪條例第12條修正草案"},{"start":8048.188,"end":8076.864,"text":"因為貪污所得在五萬元以下情節輕微修法多一個免除期刑的選項可以讓法官及檢方在處理上能有一個更大的裁量空間我想請問次長部長在去年底的這個宣誓法務部現在還是認同嗎還是已經改變了我們的那個立場很像一致的還是一樣嘛 對不對好 我給我們次長一個肯定"},{"start":8077.674,"end":8091.629,"text":"那我來告訴您 其實部長不只是對陳培鈺委員是這樣回答事實上是對我們的翁小玲委員也是這樣回答對吳宗憲委員也是這樣回答所以這也是法務部非常清楚的立場"},{"start":8093.103,"end":8119.853,"text":"也不只是今天部長 法務部有這個態度喔我想請教您 知道嗎現在正要參選高雄市長的賴瑞榮委員他也提出了貪污自罪條例的修法版本版本是在新台幣五萬元以下者得減輕期刑至期刑三分之一或免除期刑這與法務部的修法方向也大致一致嘛對不對 效果相同也相同嘛"},{"start":8120.829,"end":8142.753,"text":"那我接下來想請教一下請問一下我底下說這句話你幫我想想看是誰說的在全民厭惡貪污期待廉政的同時在野黨正推動修法要讓五萬元以下的貪污免除刑責請問這句話是誰說的我告訴你賴清德總統說的"},{"start":8149.807,"end":8177.662,"text":"我想請問賴清德總統說要修正所謂的五萬元以下貪污免除行政賴總統你反對我沒有意見啊你不要扣在野黨嘛你正確的說法應該說法務部可務賴銳龍可務當然國民黨也可務因為提出了這個修法版本針對秦清法眾的狀況五萬元以下的貪污所得"},{"start":8178.837,"end":8203.475,"text":"今天可以免除洗刑的選項提出這個意見的不只在野黨法務部你也提出這個意見民進黨也提出這個意見怎麼變成今天在野黨支持貪污反對廉政法務部你們是賴總統的法律守門人賴政府法律守門人要不要去跟賴總統說一下"},{"start":8205.233,"end":8216.321,"text":"跟委員報告我們是國家的法治守門人非常好非常好國家的法治守門人所以今天我又問你嘛到底是賴總統對還是法務部對我想其實總統對於這個反貪暢聯這個部分是不遺餘力的啦謝謝 不遺餘力啊在各種場合上我告訴你"},{"start":8227.165,"end":8253.2,"text":"那也跟委員報告政部長也不遺餘力啦請容許我再多說一句事實上我們在這幾年我們的青年印象指數我想那個委員也非常清楚我告訴你我沒有否定今天法務部反貪促聯的努力我只講一個回頭一個最簡單的事情我也不為難你 你答不出來嘛部長講的清清楚楚 秦清法重"},{"start":8255.217,"end":8273.772,"text":"32元電鍋善心捐給石荒老夫竟然被判刑因為貪污自由條例就有不合宜的地方嘛法務部今天才想要提出修法在野黨才要提出修法民進黨才要提出修法大家都知道這不合理 秦清法重唯獨我們的賴總統竟然突然跳出來"},{"start":8275.1,"end":8302.969,"text":"挑出來沒關係喔 蘿賴總統真的是今天就是非常嚴苛你貪一塊錢你今天只要中一塊錢一樣重罰重判我尊重你的價值判斷但是呢扣給在野黨就沒意思了啦這個是朝野共識啊 在立法院朝野共識啊連行政院 連我們法務部都支持的案子竟然可以扣帽子說是在野黨來縱容貪污"},{"start":8304.502,"end":8324.318,"text":"回頭我還是跟法務部期待啦 真的也許我們賴總統對於台灣的現代法治狀況有一些不了解的地方回去告訴我們行政院院長請我們法務部長有機會幫賴總統上個課第一個了解現在是到底是多麼荒謬"},{"start":8325.779,"end":8340.71,"text":"多麼荒謬的狀況才會今天有朝野政黨加上法務部都想要提供修法第二個請賴總統學會不要去隨便抹黑別人要抹黑啊連法務部連民進黨連賴瑞榮一起抹黑謝謝您好 謝謝羅委員那我們現在就休息五分鐘"},{"start":8358.203,"end":8358.223,"text":"蝦子"},{"start":8397.841,"end":8408.763,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":8424.879,"end":8431.925,"text":"我來,我做踩硬,我做踩硬,對我好嗎?好,好,好"},{"start":8452.668,"end":8452.968,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8485.53,"end":8487.231,"text":"好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,"},{"start":8515.031,"end":8515.752,"text":"這裏有個大廈,這裏有個餐廳。"},{"start":8539.349,"end":8539.49,"text":"哦,好"},{"start":8554.939,"end":8560.502,"text":"今天為我介紹的廳長是我自己看過那麼多的廳長,所以就說他是廳長我也是很喜歡廳長,我也是很喜歡"},{"start":8581.347,"end":8584.491,"text":"這瓶是蜜蜂蜜蜂蜂蜂蜂蜂蜂蜂蜂蜂"},{"start":8600.791,"end":8601.031,"text":"蕃茄"},{"start":8623.752,"end":8623.772,"text":"蕙琦"},{"start":8637.689,"end":8658.161,"text":"我硬起這些硬紙紙吧但是我在看上禮拜對班的角度啊所以我還遇到那種非常痛苦的方法因為他們剛好就是把這個壓住了我那時候很累耶然後回去想怎麼回事啊我等一下一直在想為什麼一直跟人家說完這個"},{"start":8689.036,"end":8709.424,"text":"來吃一口"},{"start":8722.157,"end":8746.625,"text":"有什麼想要說的嗎?有,因為那個...我說我等一下就去要跟...報告...報告的,你要去要跟報告的你反正等一下就去...我都忘記了那也好,那也好,那也好,那也好,那也好,那也好,那也好,那也好,那也好,那也好,那也好,那也好,那也好,那也好,那也好,那也好,那也好,那也好,那也好,那也好,那也好,那也好,那也好,那也好,那也好,那也好,那也好,那也好,那也好,那也好,那也好,那也好,那也好,那也好,那也好,那也好,那也好,那也好,那也好,那也好,那也好,那也好,那也好,那也好,那"},{"start":8768.509,"end":8769.57,"text":"好我們現在繼續開會那麼接下來請林芮晴委員發言"},{"start":8791.258,"end":8794.599,"text":"法務部在去年8月12號就公告刑法80條的修正草案"},{"start":8813.274,"end":8813.754,"text":"為何刑法第286條的那個"},{"start":8829.414,"end":8843.568,"text":"防礙幼童的自然發育罪以及我們的兒少性剝削條例中的多項重罪並沒有同步的去比照修正因為這樣同樣在幼年的時候遭受到嚴重凌虐的時候"},{"start":8845.129,"end":8865.476,"text":"他因為於失效之後而無法就近因為最近我們收到的個案就是這些所以導致當時為了保護兒少身心健康健全的立法目的就不復存在我不知道這樣的修當初只有去處理我們的八十條的這個卻沒有去考慮到這個當時修法的考量是什麼"},{"start":8866.892,"end":8888.011,"text":"我們基本上針對這樣的條文的一個修正他還是針對說我們的一個追溯權希望能夠保障我們的這個遭到性侵害的這樣的一個對象的這樣的一個法例然後去做一個就是在時效上就是說往後從20歲以後就在這個之前不算入的這樣的一個狀況他是希望是說追溯權能夠"},{"start":8888.752,"end":8913.725,"text":"理解說這個兒少他的這個等於算是 可是同樣這個也是很嚴重在刑法286條對 然後針對兒少的主管的這個部會 因為他是衛福部嘛那我們的這個部分是針對於性侵害的國安局次長也回去研議好不好因為我覺得這部分對我們來講蠻重要那謝謝次長那主席有請我們的刑事廳的許廳長跟民事廳的林廳長好 請許廳長"},{"start":8918.802,"end":8926.505,"text":"兩位聽長今年國家衛生研究院公布我們的私自流行病學的調查大家退估65歲去年達到38萬接下來130年的時候會達40萬那140年的時候可能會去達到了70萬以上"},{"start":8935.207,"end":8962.516,"text":"那也就是代表我們的持續事實上往上攀升而且相關原因就也指出超過一半的失智症患者實際上是沒有被正確的辨識跟診斷的那依據我們的CRPD也就是新生權公約在司法程序上應提供的合理調整可是實務上當一名未被妥善診斷欠缺他欠缺病史感的失智患者進入到偵查或是審判程序的時候就會可能產生"},{"start":8963.596,"end":8992.996,"text":"記憶的混亂 陳述的矛盾這些狀況那這些人可能會成為刑事的受害人甚至是證人甚至事實上是被告那韓國最近就有新聞出來說專挑失智老人下手不罰金流高達40億元所以我們要的事實上是假設失智症患者今天不幸成為原告被告如果確保他們有一場公平的審判所以想問我們的許廷長實務上對這些到底法律上可以怎麼樣的協助"},{"start":8993.877,"end":9008.008,"text":"是 報告委員那關於失智症這個患者他的司法禁用權的部分其實有失智症他可能屬於身心障礙權利公約及我國身心障礙定義的包含範圍之內那他應該是身心障礙鑑定類別如果他明確的診斷"},{"start":9009.369,"end":9025.441,"text":"那他應該歸類為這個神經系統構造精神心智功能的障礙那如果在沒有明確有診斷的時候他也可能依照這個社會模式也可能被包涉入這個身心障礙範圍內那關於這些失智症這些心智功能障礙者他"},{"start":9026.381,"end":9052.298,"text":"司法院其實他有做一個CRPD的這個司法指引來指引法官如何照顧他們特殊的需求並作為合理調整比如說他必須提供多元的溝通輔具或者調整書面資料跟資訊的呈現或者是調整法庭訊問的方式與態度那允許陪同之時以盡力心愛關係那這部分或許沒有一個各個民事送法他有一個相關的讓他可以進入的條款比如說像刑事送法35條"},{"start":9053.499,"end":9066.875,"text":"他就有規定這個因精神障礙或其他心智缺陷無法完成的時候他有一個輔佐人專業人員的勢力我現在時間上的關係是不是先問一下那個林廷長也是這樣嗎同樣的在民法上"},{"start":9067.478,"end":9095.996,"text":"是那個跟委員報告那個剛才許廷長講的實際上是一個司法禁用權司法行政的資源就是說這一些弱勢者到司法法院來應訴的時候那個有關一些方法的部分但是委員剛才提到某些個案失智老人的問題那個涉及到個別案件如何認定比如說他在程序上有輔佐人或者實際上面他是屬於民法上的精神耗弱之人"},{"start":9096.796,"end":9123.31,"text":"等等這些會個別按進不同的請求權個別去適用因為現在目前就是民間團體跟我們講說他們接觸到非常多這樣的案子可是呢真的事實上是進入到被告的時候呢事實上他們之前就是沒有被診斷出來所以想續問是說司法院目前對於第一線的司法人員是不是有受過相關的身心障礙的專業訓練能不能在第一時間"},{"start":9124.571,"end":9128.805,"text":"知道這些病徵然後立即採取必要的一些協助來處理這個問題"},{"start":9133.038,"end":9154.375,"text":"關於這一 這種如何去保障他的司法經過權他實體法上跟訴訟法上其實都有相應的機制那他如果有這樣的一個狀況他往往在訴訟程序上或是在相關的這個情況下會產生相關的這個現象那這部分通常必須要用鑑定制度來加以處理那委員可能會想說對 可是現在就是說因為"},{"start":9154.975,"end":9163.734,"text":"很多我們就看現在很多而且失智事實上是有年輕化的狀態可能第一時間都沒有辦法被診斷出來的時候你們有沒有更積極的一些作為"},{"start":9166.614,"end":9195.216,"text":"關於這個失智症的辨別確實是有相當困難那其實他的家人應該是能夠比法官更了解他那其實在這種狀況之下他家人或是說他親近信賴之人假設能夠陪同那是應該是可以協助法官來發現這樣的狀況並且啟動進一步的措施那在以刑事訴訟法來講那關於社工人員或其他專業人員都可以作為輔助人陪同到場而且他應該有主管機關或相關社福機公所指標"},{"start":9195.356,"end":9212.518,"text":"派出這一類人員所以只是說如何去啟動這個可能是一個就是許廷長就是說未來是否有考慮將精神障礙的人比照我們的精神衛生法因為我剛剛問是這個我現在問是精神障礙的人比照我們的精神衛生法庭的一個制度"},{"start":9212.958,"end":9223.047,"text":"由精神科醫師進入一般法庭參與審判或是考慮我們設置精神障礙的專庭由專業知識的相關的法官來進行審判"},{"start":9227.509,"end":9243.738,"text":"提到一個怎麼樣讓專業引入司法他怎麼樣才是一個最適合的機制那以這個精神衛生法庭當然他是一個相當優良的一個制度但這個專業審判他就是他可以整合司法跟醫療但是如果是就是說針對這樣的狀況他要去做"},{"start":9246.359,"end":9273.508,"text":"擴及到所有這個在各種程序都有這一種鑽停的時候他可能會有一些挑戰然後比如說資源量的分布目前這個可能會面臨到說某一些偏遠地區或是說他的資源怎麼樣配置我們現在司法的人力是已經非常緊繃了有沒有辦法再負擔這樣子這個可不可以帶回去去研擬考慮為什麼因為現在已經是一個很嚴重的趨勢也是一個問題點尤其事實上"},{"start":9274.068,"end":9301.992,"text":"我們去年就有38萬而且事實上是沒有被發現的所以最後麻煩我們的司法院進駐我們研擬兒少保護立法不足的部分要麻煩次長還有針對研擬設置專庭跟專家參審的制度麻煩我們的司法院在一個月內可不可以給我相關的我們一個月內來研議並報告再麻煩 謝謝主席 謝謝林好 謝謝林委員"},{"start":9302.878,"end":9306.379,"text":"那接下來我們有請莊銳雄委員發言謝謝張偉有請我們法務部馮次長有請馮次長司法院我們許廳長刑事廳許廳長許廳長衛福部我們保護服務司的張副司長好不好來有請張副司長"},{"start":9332.423,"end":9358.723,"text":"我想要來請教三位對於這個兒少性侵追溯權的一個問題我想整個追溯權的實效大家很清楚其實就是要讓整個法律的一個安定性但是又涉及到這個被害人的一個正義的一個問題那我先來請教我們那個衛福部那個張副司長"},{"start":9360.069,"end":9386.962,"text":"你有沒有覺得兒少性侵的部分追溯犬失教你們的看法以現在的法治來看的話你們會不會覺得說好像是這樣的一個規定裡面跟現在所頻繁發生的一個案件因為性侵的案件常常兒少未成年人佔的是最多那你們又會不會認為說現行的一個制度來看的話有延長的一個必要或者說時效先讓它停止"},{"start":9387.722,"end":9409.299,"text":"相關的設計當然可以討論那你們看現在的一個規定有沒有辦法來銜接的上社會上發生的這些案件的一個統計數量站在衛福部跟保護被害人的立場我們當然是希望追溯權這個部分能夠做調整所以我們原則上尊重我們法務部的處理意見"},{"start":9410.253,"end":9416.724,"text":"嗯 所以你們沒有特別的看法我們支持你們支持 對那我想請那個 廳長喔 廳長是這有時候 案件 站在"},{"start":9421.246,"end":9440.008,"text":"法務部當然講我們的立場打擊犯罪有時候我們認為常常就是除惡勿進但是法律這一套邏輯裡面又有法的安定性的一個問題我不曉得司法院你們的看法是怎麼樣你說這個法律有時候未成年人"},{"start":9442.92,"end":9468.849,"text":"或者說甚至於是兒少發生了這樣的一個性侵案件我們從衛護部也好從監察院也好這樣的一個統計的一個報告裡面監察院調查裡面76%加害者是詮釋上不對等不管是詮釋不對等或者是未成年人那衛護部剛剛統計是說性侵被害人一半是未成年人那以這樣來看的話這個對被害人來講的話"},{"start":9470.51,"end":9487.668,"text":"你這個時效有一天我想告的時候啊這個對被案人來講法律的規定他太晚了時間上他太晚了可是有時候這個又不是他太晚的問題是你這個制度又太早把他給關門了我不曉得廳長你的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":9489.023,"end":9512.586,"text":"追溯權失效本身是要去平衡犯罪訴罪的要求國家刑法權的行使以及法律安定性這些衝突的利益如何去權衡的一個機制以未成年的性侵害被害人來講他會有幾個特徵跟一般的狀況可能不太一樣比如說他身心發展未成熟他可能受制於權力不對等"},{"start":9514.148,"end":9539.228,"text":"那所以說在他法律追逐權時效開始進行的時候他當下或是在一段的期間裡面法律有賦予他去告訴的這個機會或揭發這個犯罪的機會但是他事實上卻無法行使那以這個事實上的基礎來做立法權衡那我相信今天行政院跟司法院已經有一個會選版的草案"},{"start":9539.708,"end":9557.214,"text":"那今天委員總共提了29條的29案的這個草案那都是本於這樣的一個事實來做一個立法的規劃那我覺得依照這個事實基礎來做適當的制度權我相信這是一個合理而且可以期待的一個做法您也覺得合理"},{"start":9557.734,"end":9576.612,"text":"其實時效一般在講說時間經過了以後法律久了以後要讓他給安定性可是因為時間經過你如果沒有去做區分的話有的是基於權勢不對等有的是因為他還是小孩來不及告等到哪一天他長大了他要告的時候法律跟你說抱歉太晚了關門了就有這樣的一個問題就變成整個正義的一個追求我們又覺得好奇怪所以我看"},{"start":9584.717,"end":9586.478,"text":"聽長這邊的意識跟衛務部這邊的意識也認為說確實這個追溯權的一個時效是可以去做調整的"},{"start":9592.916,"end":9618.092,"text":"這部分是屬於立法形成的空間那當然要問問你們的意見啦 我也算沒有要立法形成現在大家陷入 大家都說是基於法的安定性啊然後跟整個被害者正義之間的一個平衡啊但是那個平衡 你如果講法的安定性沒有去做區分的話那個安定性只在講時間而已啊他沒有去區分說 權勢到底是不是不對等"},{"start":9619.072,"end":9638.062,"text":"這個個案裡面權勢是不是不對等然後被害人到底他是不是小孩子他整個心智的成熟方面來講的話那只因為時間經過了那基於法的安定性時效消滅檢察官只能不起訴處分哪怕你起訴了到法院去一樣不受理"},{"start":9639.366,"end":9666.372,"text":"會有這樣的問題啊是 兒少他這個身心發展未成熟那以及他可能跟大人之間因為年齡的差距跟實力的差距或是其他的關係他處於權力不對我相信這是大部這個幾乎是兒少心情悲哀可能遭通遊的一個現象這個論述大家都知道啦我是說你們態度啦態度我們是肯定這樣的一個立法行程因為如果給他的時間他沒有辦法行使那這個時間等於就是沒有給他的意思OK 阿哥很好 阿次長"},{"start":9667.092,"end":9688.924,"text":"那差不多了 我要回答這個修法裡面你們淘寶部的態度我們也是認為說跟這個大部分委員還有這樣我們司法院這邊的意見都是一樣肯定說我們這個未成年人遭到性侵害的部分上追溯權應該是讓他成年就20歲以後再開始所以這件事就是在向社會宣告這件事你不可以做"},{"start":9690.945,"end":9715.107,"text":"尤其是涉及到整個性侵的尤其是對這些未成年人的涉及到權勢不對等的哪怕有一天時效就已經經過了十年了經過了二十年了真不好意思因為當初權勢不對等可能你的下屬他不敢去跟你舉發小孩子因為心智不成熟他還沒有長大這樣我們就延長所以這個其實是社會上有共識的你意思也是這樣嗎好"},{"start":9716.548,"end":9722.4,"text":"那我簡單在另外進入 那個衛務部請回那兩位先留著一下就是說我們這個小額貪汙這個 我覺得今天是阿仲頭戲啦大案"},{"start":9728.391,"end":9748.23,"text":"涉及到整個結構性的一個問題啦有時候你說幾百塊幾千塊或一萬塊那貪污罪名是很重法重但是很多就是情輕的一個問題啦那個確實是值得去做差別的一個待遇啦其實我到本席一直認為這個修法"},{"start":9750.652,"end":9771.462,"text":"不是什麼放寬的問題啦是在講行為人的責任跟他不法的一個內涵有沒有符合比例原則啦貪汙 命很難聽啊違背職務的行為那當然可惡啊 殺啊但是跟不違背職務的行為或者是金額很小有時候常常金額 你去看那個證交法"},{"start":9772.352,"end":9798.789,"text":"那個規定金額本身就涵蓋了整個不法的一個內涵在裡面所以我是認為今天基於整個清潔輕微的部分提出這樣的一個修法社會上其實本來就是可以來做討論但是我們也很怕誤解其實這一次的一個修法裡面你說犯第四條到第六條之罪其實太陽就有13種不同的一個類型"},{"start":9800.258,"end":9814.868,"text":"這個過程要見還要加上情節輕微還有所得不法利益是在五萬元以下不是說不法利益五萬元以下這兩個很減輕免除其刑這個社會有時候常常會造成一個誤解啦也就是說你真正你要去減輕的話很抱歉喔也要通過法官那一關說情節它本身是輕微的就是它的動機啦危險性啦犯刑的強度啦外在的壓力啦"},{"start":9830.258,"end":9837.184,"text":"倒不是只有單純從整個財產所得的一個金額的一個大小所以這個方向我不曉得"},{"start":9839.443,"end":9861.532,"text":"司法院跟法務部這個地方 你們簡單來做一個回應這樣三檔大家在這裡說的時候 比較不太聽大家在那裡說 沒來沒去啦 你知不知道 次長你的態度跟委員講 委員講的我們都很贊成 事實上條文的這個部分四到六條他必須要這個清潔 清違 還要加上鎖鎖的跟不正利益在五萬元以下"},{"start":9861.932,"end":9884.531,"text":"他不是說一旦到五萬元以下就一定是這樣子他要給法院再有一個比例原則的一個判斷我們也很怕社會上誤解說我們在貪污這件事情上竟然是放寬了就是說貪五萬塊錢沒事我們不是這樣的一個意思其實無論是法務部我們還有各委員的意思都不是這樣子都是希望說在綜合評量上真正"},{"start":9885.131,"end":9901.848,"text":"是有情節輕微然後又是五萬塊以下的我們才會有這樣的一個讓法官有一個多的一個判決的一個良心的一個上面的一個這樣的一個判斷這樣講就很清楚啦你比如說我舉例啊三萬塊好啦可是你收了三萬塊你這個是違背職務的一個行為啊法官可能會旁邊的聽察可能認為說你這可惡啊"},{"start":9908.254,"end":9920.814,"text":"雖然是三萬塊你就是違背職務然後你這個不法內涵很高你這個對於整個行為人的一個責任然後分析整個綜合來判斷的話雖然是三萬塊啊還有可能是重判啊廳長不是這樣子嗎"},{"start":9922.847,"end":9947.688,"text":"就是剛剛我們在討論的這一個問題基本上就是如何讓法官的裁量空間可以符合罪行相當怎麼樣定才是適當這樣的一個問題那其實判決條例4到6條它本來就是一個特別法它的量刑本來就是從重那12條它不是說直接減或免它是讓法官審酌他的情節是不是輕微"},{"start":9948.789,"end":9967.567,"text":"審酌他所圖得的利益綜合來考慮要不要減或免那減的話因為這條條文同時已經增加了免除期刑這樣的規定依照刑法666條可以減至剩下三分之一那甚至他也可以再搭配59條再做減刑所以他基本上他是讓法官可以有裁量的空間"},{"start":9968.248,"end":9986.076,"text":"那把它定清楚會比目前使用實質違法性這樣一個理論它能夠會有一個更一致的一個裁量的標準那這個對於整個罪行相當的這個理論的落實在實務上落實是有幫助的好 謝謝那今天就是綜合整個幾個版本的問題啦好 謝謝好 謝謝鍾委員那接下來請楊瓊英委員"},{"start":9992.698,"end":10007.404,"text":"楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員不在王育民委員王育民委員王育民委員不在接下來我們有請洪孟凱委員發言謝謝主席謝謝麻煩請我們次長麻煩馮次長"},{"start":10013.888,"end":10036.022,"text":"市長好市長本席很欣慰也感謝我們召委排案那也看到行政院在之前針對刑法80條跟83條也做草案的一個修正跟公告也出委員會也出院會喔我記得2024年5月27號一樣的位置一樣的委員會本席就在這邊當時的徐次長本席就針對刑法80條來去做修法討論"},{"start":10039.245,"end":10059.384,"text":"當時也有媒體報導本席在今年的4月更是率先提出就刑法80條跟83條的一個修法最重要就是我們看到了未成年性侵的案件在過去確實層出不窮而很大的一個關鍵是因為追溯期的起算而造成說有些未成年性侵的被害者他"},{"start":10060.084,"end":10081.982,"text":"過了這個追溯期而造成說他真的理解的時候他想要提出來但已經過了追溯期當時本席也把相關的數據資料都調出來那現在我們共同面對就是我們行政院的版本是希望就讓這個追溯期未成年性侵的追溯期從成年之後開始起算對不對20歲來請用麥克風好不好麥克風打開"},{"start":10085.131,"end":10111.838,"text":"我們的那個就是追溯權的部分是說這20歲以前不計那本席跟我們很多委員版本也類似大同小異但是今天年齡上就有的用成年成年現在是18成年是18或是20其實我們現在是用20所以20就是更多兩年的保障基本上是這樣子那本席今天有看到因為在提案說明的時候也聽到王育民委員以及有某些委員版本他更是認為是說是不是能夠放寬"},{"start":10112.958,"end":10141.42,"text":"倒是說這個更長的一個時間那我想也就叫我們現在法務部有一個態度因為本席的版本是成年之後但是本席也聽到我覺得也不是沒有道理為什麼這樣講因為未成年性侵我們已經調出很多資料他有可能是全市性侵熟人性侵或是這個他的照顧者那其實某種程度上他對於他自己要提出來去做這樣的一個"},{"start":10142.481,"end":10165.455,"text":"控訴其實相對來講他要承擔的壓力更多所以之前的統計數據男性未成年男性被性侵平均是25.9年他才可以提出女性23.1年那不管25.9年或23.1年這都是一個數字但重點在於是說我們能不能在這次修法的時候含括更廣的範圍"},{"start":10166.315,"end":10192.567,"text":"您怎麼看跟委員講其實追溯權的這個時效它是整體上的一個法律上的一個概念那所以基本上面來講它是整體在規劃的那但是我們這一次就如同這個委員就是說對於我們的這個未成年的這個保護其實您多次的有提出這樣的一個部分事實上這個部分也是本部高度關注的所以我們著重的是在於他未成年的狀態他的心智上"},{"start":10193.527,"end":10210.136,"text":"確實有有別於一般人的這樣的一個這個情況所以說我們是希望說把這個時間然後拉到說20歲以前不記錄但20歲以後他就會回復到我們原來的一個這樣的一個追溯權的一個概念他還是必須要兼顧到說我們在追溯權的這個"},{"start":10211.636,"end":10235.981,"text":"設計上他就是要兼顧到法律上的一個安定性也要避免說證據上將來在修正上也要有一個就是說不能說隔了太久以後其實也會造成了將來辦案各方面的一個困難所以這個部分就也跟外界說明清楚因為今天我們有委員提案說明的時候有提到說有民間團體的意見既然如此我們也在修法的過程裡面把它給釐清這也是本席給您這個說明的一個機會"},{"start":10238.061,"end":10253.357,"text":"次長你剛剛提到一個更重點也是本席所關注的就是說我們不是只是把時間延長以外您剛剛提到一個重點就是因為未成年被性侵他時間相對來講如果說他真的勇於發生的時候可能已經過了"},{"start":10255.098,"end":10283.617,"text":"這個一段時間了那收集的證據以及還原當時的現場跟甚至說要真的讓這個犯罪者能夠把他入罪這都需要我們更謹慎的一個過程也因此我們想是說在現在這次修法以外有沒有針對就是未成年如果說被性侵的話能夠有增加更專業或是更隱密或是更有效的一個支持讓他能夠去"},{"start":10285.038,"end":10307.755,"text":"真的把這個事情給說明清楚或說讓他能夠去理解就過去也許小時候的時候他不一定知道說這個叫做性侵但長大之後懂事之後或說經濟自主之後他願意站出來來去揭發但是在這個過程裡面就變成是說他需要有更隱密有專人的窗口有專業的窗口能夠讓他去做"},{"start":10308.676,"end":10337.482,"text":"進一步的一個溝通或是說了解那這個部分能不能有一個配套措施是 跟委員報告您提到的這一個部分就是說有關於這個就是這個兒少的部分的保護事實上我們各部會都會來做那法務部這邊針對於說這類型的辦案案件其實我們有專屬的檢察官那針對於相關的一個怎麼偵辦這類案件上怎麼樣像是有一些要讓人家溫馨談話室各方面我們會有一個制定一個流程"},{"start":10337.862,"end":10366.103,"text":"那針對這個部分上委員提到這部分我們回去也會再宣導再去做更加溫暖已經制定了嗎還是本來就有本來就有那本席特別提醒就是說這個現在就是我們看到這次修法過程不是只是要把它延長而已更重要的是希望能夠透過這樣子的延長追溯期的就成年起算追溯期的過程能夠更有效而且更專業的能夠協助被害者把過去他所受到的"},{"start":10366.883,"end":10386.77,"text":"性侵經驗或者說受到性侵的這些相關的犯罪能夠怎麼樣把它給完整釐清變成是在法律這個檢察官起訴的一個關鍵的一個部分這一點就要再把它給做更詳細所以是不是也可以給本席相關的資料就是說我們目前正在做那以及有沒有不足的部分透過這次修法的時候再做一個檢視可以嗎"},{"start":10387.83,"end":10403.457,"text":"回去會把相關的一些資料的部分再提供委員這邊好那我們本席等到收到資料之後我們也再修法註挑審查的時候我們再來做進一步的討論好的謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝洪孟楷委員那接下來我們有請范雲委員發言"},{"start":10414.113,"end":10415.056,"text":"好 謝謝昭偉有請馮陳次長好 請馮次長"},{"start":10422.115,"end":10437.445,"text":"次長早安我想先跟您說明一下我從2022年就持續關注未成年性侵的追溯期修法你可以看到我這邊提供的記者會、公聽會之外我2023年也對我們陳建仁院長還有當時法務部部長總質詢"},{"start":10444.929,"end":10462.921,"text":"請他們能夠啟動修法的工程我自己在2024年也提出我的修法版本所以我今天是蠻肯定行政院通過法務部的刑法80條的修正草案覺得這是一個被害人保護的開始"},{"start":10464.202,"end":10485.586,"text":"可是今天跟您質詢其實是想跟您提被害人保護除了這一步之外有更多的配套要努力我想這邊我自己比較關注的就是要努力的部分先跟您討論一下犯罪被害人權益保障法目前是重傷補償金是80萬元到160萬元性侵害補償金是10萬元到40萬元"},{"start":10492.367,"end":10493.848,"text":"那想請問次長您覺得這中間的落實高達70萬到120萬這樣子合理嗎"},{"start":10519.116,"end":10548.516,"text":"是跟委員講我們這個犯罪被害人的部分這個草案好像在預告中所以我們在相關上的一個部分我們會針對大家的一個意見再來做一個判斷那我想那您市長您個人覺得這個差距性侵害到底是不是一個重傷害他為什麼跟重傷的補償金高達70萬到120萬的差距這個確實是說如果對性侵害的一個補償金的這個部分上是可以有不同的一個"},{"start":10549.276,"end":10577.126,"text":"因為性侵害事實上在心理生理上據說有各種的研究它其實是個嚴重的傷害我們知道刑法的重傷其實第六條有這個空間就是身體或健康前面講的比較是具體的就是說肢體器官等等但是第六條其實是有留下這個空間那我這邊給您看一個報導者的深入報導"},{"start":10578.166,"end":10599.993,"text":"就是也是童年時期遭遇性侵的那他會出現驚恐、易怒、自言自語及反覆思考死亡等嚴重創傷那這是我們所看到的其實如果用刑法第十條重傷來講的話那他事實上是符合的那甚至有些可能是很難治癒的傷害"},{"start":10601.593,"end":10621.284,"text":"那這邊也想跟次長講未成年性侵案很多都是發生在國家機構裡面那以我最近關切的不管是國小棒球教練的性侵案最近2026年的那去年我有參與處理陳情案的國立戲曲學院的郎師性侵案"},{"start":10621.884,"end":10634.883,"text":"這些都是一對多還有國中自由班的2022年的還有南投俄哨所以我認為呢國家有責任為受害者做更多這句話次長應該可以認同吧可以認同"},{"start":10636.866,"end":10655.463,"text":"那我想跟您提一下其他國家的例子以紐西蘭為例他們把性犯罪跟重傷害一視同仁國家就提供一樣高額的補償金你看紐西蘭2001年的這個意外傷害補償法就等於是我們的這個相關的法那它"},{"start":10656.744,"end":10674.404,"text":"最後這個定義這是我們辦公室自己從紐西蘭的據說立法院相關的資訊找出來的個人傷害就包含生理損傷與因性暴力而生的心理損傷那一次性補償金高達最高可達新台幣190萬"},{"start":10676.626,"end":10700.74,"text":"我想這個是紐西蘭的部分除了這個之外紐西蘭他們也涵蓋多方面我們剛講的是金額譬如說他的一次性補償金之外如果是職業有相關影響的話那還有每週獲得一些補償金職業復原計劃等如果是諮商服務的話特別提供給性侵害的受害者"},{"start":10701.4,"end":10719.671,"text":"就是國家會給付部分的資商費就是我們剛剛看到的一次補償金之外有些資商服務可能會高達好多年那國家也會部分給付那我想這個部分都是我們值得學習的那不是只有紐西蘭"},{"start":10720.851,"end":10739.72,"text":"我這裡還找了荷蘭跟澳洲荷蘭也針對心理創傷賠償最高可達新台幣130萬那你當然說荷蘭可能就是生活費用的比數是比較高的但是換算為就是就薪水各方面來講的話台灣還是低非常的多"},{"start":10740.6,"end":10765.24,"text":"那澳洲的話更高他的國家補償計畫就是針對就是兒少性侵案高達320萬因為在兒少的時候受傷的話其實對終身的影響更大那還有320萬台幣之外還有心理諮商跟資源服務那今年我跟在場的張雅玲委員我們有去拜訪這個皇家調查委員會後來"},{"start":10767.502,"end":10789.058,"text":"幫忙執行的那個教會機構他們有告訴我們就是他們所做的這方面是如何的就是希望能夠以受害者為中心那我想今天我的要求很簡單是不是可以去嚴寧提高好嗎就是一個月內可不可以給本席相關的報告"},{"start":10790.06,"end":10810.095,"text":"好 那個就是說跟委員 先謝謝委員因為您長時期就是對於我們這樣的一個這個兒少的一個保護事實上就是本部隊這樣委員的這樣的一個這樣的一個就是關注我們也都很重視那事實上您剛剛有提到很多的一些案件其實在我們看了以來我們也是覺得說"},{"start":10811.115,"end":10828.066,"text":"檢察官的角度 像台中的性侵害的狀況我們也都是要求要盡速 盡嚴的去處理事實上這個案件後來也是判了非常的重在很多次這樣的狀況 到有期徒刑加起來是400多年"},{"start":10829.807,"end":10844.756,"text":"那我們在針對說這樣的一個案子上面我們都會要求檢察官在對於犯罪犯罪人這個的部分要嚴加這個禁訴禁言的處理對於犯罪被害人的這個部分上我們也一定要盡力的去保護他"},{"start":10845.416,"end":10863.076,"text":"委員剛剛提到的這一個有關於說重傷跟這個性侵害心理傷痛其實我想被性侵害而造的這種心理傷痛這可能是真的是非常的大家都知道那個是非常的嚴重很痛苦的這部分金額的部分我們會回去再做一個妥適上的研究再跟委員這邊做報告好嗎"},{"start":10863.436,"end":10890.058,"text":"那我想再補充一下就是整體的性侵害性暴力的傷害都應該要比現在得到的補償更高那針對兒少的話我們剛剛前幾位都有講到平均二十幾年才說的出口那二十幾年其實心理上的傷害是蠻大的好嗎那所以請就是法務部一個月內給我相關的報告那你們正好正在預告中我想這是一個很好的一個修正補充的時期可以嗎是"},{"start":10897.604,"end":10911.214,"text":"今天所有登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢詢答結束委員質詢時所要求提供的相關資料或是以書面答覆者也請相關機關盡速送交個別委員及本會"},{"start":10914.734,"end":10927.59,"text":"委員蔡奇昌、黃潔、吳佩義、林倩琪、吳宗憲所提的書面質詢都列入記錄並刊登公報也請相關機關以書面答覆"},{"start":10930.609,"end":10946.245,"text":"那麼接下來我們就進行討論事項先於開會通知單第二到四案因為是進行詢答所以我們就請議事人員直接宣讀第一案的提案條文宣讀的時間大約一分鐘左右"},{"start":10948.195,"end":10971.764,"text":"如果有修正動議或是附帶決議提出的話也請儘速將書面送交主席台以利應發現場進行討論那麼審查法案的時候也請主要的列席機關代表就移到主席台的正前方首長席的位置就坐宣讀的時候如果有已經收到修正動議也請一併宣讀宣讀後我們就進行討論那麼現在先請宣讀條文"},{"start":10977.518,"end":10995.206,"text":"討論事項第一案 賓案審查委員賴瑞龍等二十人拟據 貪污治罪條例第十二條條文修正草案等六案 請參與條文對照表委員賴瑞龍等提案第十二條 犯第四條制第六條之罪 情節輕微而其所得或所圖得"},{"start":10995.966,"end":11016.275,"text":"之財務或不正利益在新台幣五萬元以下者得減輕其刑至其刑之三分之一或免除其刑其餘未修正委員您見其等提案第十二條除第一項墨具修正為減輕或免除其刑外其餘未修正委員蔡依瑜等提案第十二條除第一項墨具增列在新台幣"},{"start":11017.355,"end":11040.585,"text":"一萬元以下者減輕或免除其刑及第二項墨具增列其在新台幣一萬元以下者減輕或免除其刑外其餘未修正委員王洪蔚等提案第十二條及委員翁曉琳等提案第十二條均同委員林倩琪等提案委員林思敏等提案第十二條除第一項墨具修正為因疑刑法本文之罪名論處外其餘未修正宣讀案"},{"start":11043.387,"end":11065.596,"text":"好 那麼我們條文已經宣讀完畢那現在就進行討論事項第一案的並案審查貪污治罪條例第十二條條文修正草案總共有六個案那麼由於本案條文只是僅有一條而且我們經過上午的詢答請問在場委員我們是不是就可以審略大體討論然後直接進入逐條審查"},{"start":11066.896,"end":11094.458,"text":"好 謝謝那麼我們現在就審查貪污之罪條例第12條條文修正草案繼續進行逐條討論 妨礙修正總共是只有處理一條第12條有委員賴瑞龍等20人提案委員林倩琦等22人提案委員蔡易瑜等16人提案委員王宏威等17人提案委員翁曉琳等17人提案委員林思敏等17人提案"},{"start":11097.25,"end":11101.668,"text":"那麼現在我們就請在場委員看有沒有要再發表意見"},{"start":11107.307,"end":11128.667,"text":"我們看大家有沒有意見因為剛剛我們經過討論而且法務部跟司法院看起來是認為林倩琪委員 王宏威委員和翁曉琳委員因為我們三個版本是一致的只是增加了一個可以免除期刑這樣的一個版本"},{"start":11129.427,"end":11153.373,"text":"就司法院跟法務部他們基本上也都是支持這樣的一個修法所以如果說看看大家的意見如何還是我們請法務部跟司法院再表達一次意見就是我們現在針對這幾個版本是 謝謝那個剛剛就是委員講到的說我們本部的這個版本確實是跟這個"},{"start":11154.977,"end":11169.839,"text":"委員的這個是一致然後但是我們現在因為就是目前上面來講因為他是還跟第11條6-1的這個部分上同樣都在行政院這邊那因為那個司法院的這一個"},{"start":11170.82,"end":11193.762,"text":"就是會銜的部分在禮拜五才過去那事實上以本部的這樣的一個立場上是希望說能夠在行政院再給我們一個時間去行政院這邊做一個最終討論出來的院版這個部分會比較就是說這個詳盡跟完整那當然如果說要今天就要做這樣的一個討論的話當然我們也是尊重大院的一個立場以上"},{"start":11195.728,"end":11215.319,"text":"好 謝謝 那麼因為剛剛其實我們在詢答的時候司法院廳長也有回覆就說你們的4月10號的回函就回覆給行政院的意見基本上也都是支持原來法務部的版本並沒有有什麼特別不同的意見"},{"start":11216.423,"end":11244.712,"text":"是嗎 關於刑法八十條這個部分我們支持不是刑法八十條 貪污自罪條例第二條報告主席那關於貪污自罪條例的部分那本院書面意見部分針對委員賴瑞榮跟委員林思敏這個提據之修正草案我們有提出一些建議文字那其餘的提案我們都尊重大院的審議結果你們剛講的四月十號回覆的那是刑法八十條 是的但是那個刑法八十條我們今天並不處理"},{"start":11245.712,"end":11259.926,"text":"所以對於貪污自罪條例的這個案子的第十二條的修法案應該司法院也沒有什麼意見嗎對 只有針對就如同主席剛剛所述的這三個部分我們沒有意見好的報告我們這"},{"start":11261.628,"end":11281.08,"text":"貪污自罪條例第12條我們今天只討論貪污自罪條例第12條所以主席妳現在採的是妳跟蘇慶泉委員那個版本嗎沒有 跟林倩琪還有王宏威委員我們三個人的版本是一模一樣所以妳的提案就跟他們都一樣的所以聚焦在翁委員的這個版本"},{"start":11282.561,"end":11308.395,"text":"對 林倩琪王紅衛跟翁曉琳委員版本就都是只有增加減輕或免除期刑只有增加或免除期刑這個部分來 請我有一個小小的疑問啦就是說因為到底在減輕或免除期刑前面需不需要加一個德呢還是就是直接因為通常之前有些時候會看到德這樣子所以我想要請教法務部的意見這樣子"},{"start":11310.086,"end":11333.284,"text":"這個不用反覆喔 你的減輕跟免除即行是B如果德還有財良呢 這減輕沒有放德就是陰囉這怎麼好笑 這本來就是沒有沒有沒有 沒有寫德就是陰囉"},{"start":11339.668,"end":11340.288,"text":"沒有鷹也是鷹"},{"start":11353.148,"end":11377.35,"text":"好那看看有沒有其他委員有意見還是法務部還要再說明嗎就是因為我們剛剛就在講說這個第12條現在他是行政院在第三次的一個審議因為我們是以行政體系的立場上我們這個今天都還是希望說委員們能夠讓我們那個討論最後出一個最終版因為其實也是跟委員的版本是一樣的"},{"start":11377.81,"end":11385.536,"text":"那但是本部的立場是說如果說今天委員們大家因為都覺得說這事情是要今天的話那我們本部也是尊重大院的立場"},{"start":11389.056,"end":11417.427,"text":"好 那莊瑞雄委員也沒有意見那麼因為事實上其實版本都一樣而且保護部這個案子已經等了兩年到現在行政約會還沒有通過真的不知道要等到什麼時候既然大家都沒有意見的話那麼我們是不是就依照林倩琦委員 王洪威委員 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bwd6"},{"start":1912.637,"end":1935.668,"text":"大家早安今天很開心看到來自各個地方的民團組織或大學的學者專家老師們來到這裡參與我們的修法公聽會在這邊代表所有的教育文化委員來感謝大家我們現在開會進行實驗教育三法修法的公聽會"},{"start":1936.869,"end":1964.925,"text":"那我在這邊先做一個簡短的前言因為我們都知道學校型態實驗教育實施條例高級中等以下教育階段非學校型態實驗教育實施條例以及公立高級中等以下學校委託私人辦理實驗教育條例以上這三個法也就是所謂的實驗教育三法在2014年的年底三讀通過那當時它的立法目的就是希望把"},{"start":1965.325,"end":1983.204,"text":"体制外教育合法化法治化鼓励教育创新扩大家长教育选择权的同时也希望提供学生多元且适切的学习途径之后立法院有在2017年完成一次修法"},{"start":1983.704,"end":1999.353,"text":"进一步的延伸实验教育适用的阶段放宽办学的弹性并且强化学生权益的保障那根据教育部的统计参与实验教育的学生人数从103学年度的2823人成长到"},{"start":2003.495,"end":2029.225,"text":"113学年度的27,021人所以这个增幅是将近10倍那在少子化趋势下的整体学生数持续下降的背景中实验教育呈现了一个逆势成长不仅显示制度逐渐的成熟也反映到越来越多的家长与学生选择不同于传统学校的一个教育路径但是呢随着制度扩展"},{"start":2029.645,"end":2056.577,"text":"相關的問題也逐漸的浮現例如審議與評鑑機制場地取得的困難以及特教與輔導資源不足等等那為了這些原因那也有很多的教育文化委員非常的關心像是陳培鈺委員所以我們特別就舉辦了這一次的公聽會廣邀專家學者跟實務工作者來提供建言作為我們"},{"start":2057.597,"end":2083.722,"text":"即将要来修正的实验教育三法的重要参考那也跟各位专家学者来报告因为我们现在已经有版本在一读中所以呢今天特别安排了立法院教育文化委员会的修法公听会那如果可以的话我们也希望各位学者专家能够尽量的提供各位的"},{"start":2084.182,"end":2107.375,"text":"建議修法的條文或版本供我們來參考那我們也在這邊祝願公聽會之後能夠有機會開始來排審讓這個修法能夠儘速的通過那我在這邊先做這樣的一個前言提示那接下來呢我們今天會討論幾個提綱那不見得各位要按照這個提綱"},{"start":2108.556,"end":2128.305,"text":"就是任何的意見都可以提出那我們列的提綱有第一個審議與評鑑制度的合理化與專業化第二個辦學場地的取得與使用機制的改善第三個資源配置跟支持系統的強化第四個制度整合與其他待檢討的議題第五點"},{"start":2130.566,"end":2153.246,"text":"原住民族实验教育的制度转型从教育选择走向民族教育权的实现第六原住民族学校与教育体系的建构也就是制度衔接跟整体规划的可能性以上是今天委员会提供的几个提纲现在我们来介绍"},{"start":2153.826,"end":2181.155,"text":"委員以及與會人員首先我們來介紹學者專家那我在這邊就依照簽到的順序好第一位宜蘭縣教師職業工會蕭嘉怡理事長歡迎您謝謝您第二位台灣實驗教育聯盟魏坤彬理事長謝謝第三位"},{"start":2184.556,"end":2205.433,"text":"实验教育机构计划主持人李友诚老师谢谢您第四位黎明技术学院通识中心的李文奇主任谢谢第五位国教行动联盟的王汉阳理事长"},{"start":2208.24,"end":2215.404,"text":"第六位社团法人台湾继续前进原住民教育文化产业协会的陈慧勋执行长"},{"start":2218.732,"end":2240.04,"text":"第七位 國立政治大學教育學系的鄭同僚教授 謝謝您第八位 自主學習促進會的陳怡光理事 歡迎您第九位 社團法人中華民國全國教師會的專業發展中心 葉明正執行長"},{"start":2241.861,"end":2266.247,"text":"歡迎您第十位非學校型態實驗教育的王以凡畢業生代表歡迎您喔第十一位國立台北教育大學教育經營與管理學系的陳建志教授謝謝第十二位桃園市盧竹區外社國小家長會黃雅怡家長會長謝謝"},{"start":2269.248,"end":2289.923,"text":"第13位 國立東華大學人文社會科學院的Awi Mona院長謝謝好 那以上不知道有沒有在場沒有被介紹到的學者專家丁來 中華民國政奪學會丁志仁理事長"},{"start":2292.444,"end":2300.839,"text":"還有屏東縣馬家鄉北業國小陳惠美校長他叫Arriving Ru還有沒有"},{"start":2302.332,"end":2320.649,"text":"好都有了好謝謝那今天呢為了我們的修法相關的主管機關單位有兩個一個是教育部那另外一個是園民會我先來介紹教育部的長官我們的好朋友張廖萬堅次長"},{"start":2323.876,"end":2347.717,"text":"謝謝次長第二位是國前署的許立娟副署長謝謝副署長還有國中小組的張燕凱副組長國中小組的謝亞軍科長原民特教組的謝仲威專門委員"},{"start":2351.991,"end":2378.924,"text":"高中教育組的廖元祺專門委員高級中等教育組的杜宜嘉科長以及縱規司的魏仕哲檢任秘書那園民會這邊第一位是邱文榮教育文化處副處長第二位是黃明廷科長"},{"start":2380.799,"end":2387.809,"text":"好謝謝大家那現在呢我們要先請教育部的張廖萬堅政務次長來就現行規定執行的狀況相關的問題"},{"start":2395.039,"end":2419.035,"text":"不好意思我先说明一下发言时间为了让大家顺利表达意见我们先做以下的处理第一个每一位发言时间七分钟在第六分钟的时候会有铃声提醒七分钟结束的时候会有一个长铃再次提醒学者专家的发言顺序就以各位刚才的签到先后顺序为准"},{"start":2424.659,"end":2447.325,"text":"刊登公報另外如果有委員會隨時參與後他們必須在上午10點前到主席台前登記我們就會在會議中穿插安排所以各位的發言號次會隨時的做變動做以上的說明現在我們就請教育部張廖萬堅次長就現行規定執行狀況還有相關的問題做說明時間7分鐘請"},{"start":2457.333,"end":2479.02,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士先生大家好感謝各界對實驗教育發展的關心今天大院教育及文化委員會來召開實驗教育三法修法的公聽會本部應邀列席並得聆聽各位委員各界先進及學者專家的寶貴意見自感榮幸那麼實驗教育三法從103年"},{"start":2481.341,"end":2503.857,"text":"實施以來已經歷經十餘年的發展那麼從制度建制逐步邁向穩定的運作也逐漸成為我國教育體系中重要的多元學習選擇之一那麼本部僅就實驗教育三法之推動現況以及本次公聽會相關的議題來進行說明並請各位先進不吝指教"},{"start":2504.617,"end":2531.835,"text":"首先是有關實驗教育三法執行的情況說明第一在制度建構方面我國以一不同辦理型態建立了完整的法治架構分別就學校型態非學校型態及委託私人辦理三類型態來訂定專法並透過授權執法與行政措施來逐步形成制度行政及資源支持互相銜接的運作體系"},{"start":2532.876,"end":2546.811,"text":"那麼此一制度的設計呢是兼顧了教育創新多元選擇與公共責任也為實驗教育長期的發展奠定了穩固的基礎那麼第二在發展規模方面那麼實驗教育參與人數持續穩定發展"},{"start":2550.134,"end":2571.017,"text":"那麼依114學年度的統計整體參與的學生人數呢已經達到了兩萬七千餘人那麼其中以國小階段為主並逐步向國中及高中階段延伸那麼顯示了實驗教育已由初期的示範發展為具有一定規模與社會需求的教育形態那麼也反映了家長"},{"start":2571.798,"end":2585.085,"text":"及學生對多元學習選擇的期待與持續提升第三 在制度運作與品質確保方面現行的制度已建構審議、評鑑、訪視、續辦審查等機制並透過專業支持與補助措施協助各類實驗教育穩定推動在兼顧教育創新"},{"start":2596.631,"end":2620.655,"text":"彈性的同時也持續強化學生學習權益家長知情權以及辦學品質的保障那麼其次呢針對本次公聽會各界關切的議題本部簡要說明如下一在審議與評鑑制度方面那麼現行的制度已經納入了專家學者教育實務人員及家長代表"},{"start":2621.295,"end":2643.153,"text":"兼顾了专业性、代表性与教育现场经验也使审议的过程同时能够反映制度面与实务面的需求未来也会持续收整地方政府以及办学单位的实务经验透过制度优化与行政支持来强化审议及评鉴机制的友善性与专业性"},{"start":2644.073,"end":2651.251,"text":"那麼第二在辦學場地取得與使用方面現行的法規提供多元彈性那麼包括"},{"start":2652.503,"end":2673.61,"text":"公有校舍活化利用以及其他合法場地的一個使用方式未來會持續與地方政府合作強化閒置教育資產之資訊揭露與行政協調那麼在符合法規與安全前提下來協助辦學者穩定取得適當空間以支持教育創新持續來發展"},{"start":2674.83,"end":2701.779,"text":"那麼第三 在資源配置與支持系統方面本部已透過補助機制來支持地方政府、實驗學校及實驗教育機構來辦理課程與教學並針對弱勢學生提供學習與輔導資源未來也會持續結合跨體系的合作來強化特殊教育、學生輔導及相關支持的網絡使不同背景學生都能夠獲得適切的支持"},{"start":2702.765,"end":2723.253,"text":"第四 在制度整合及法治衔接的方面 實驗教育三法作為特別法以於國民教育法等一般教育法規來形成基本分工架構未來也會持續審慎研議精進的方向 以兼顧制度彈性與整體教育體系的穩定"},{"start":2724.033,"end":2749.25,"text":"那麼第五,在原住民族實驗教育方面本部將配合原住民族委員會之規劃就法規、制度、課程、師資培育等面向共同來推動原住民族學校法本部配合原住民族委員會之規劃逐步完善原住民族教育體系之制度、連結與發展條件與促進原住民族教育的穩定推展"},{"start":2750.168,"end":2773.66,"text":"那麼最後我們總結來看實驗教育三法的核心精神在於尊重家長教育選擇權回應學生多元學習需求並鼓勵教育創新與多元發展那麼同時在制度設計上也強調公共責任與學生權益的保障那麼使教育創新能夠在穩定且可持續的架構下來推動"},{"start":2774.62,"end":2802.725,"text":"未來本部將持續廣納各界意見在既有基礎上來精進有關審議評鑑補助場地運用及支持系統等機制讓實驗教育更增周延與穩健那麼以上報告敬請各位委員及各界先進不吝指教謝謝各位好謝謝張良文監事長的說明那接下來有"},{"start":2805.216,"end":2814.247,"text":"原民會提出書面報告還有沒有要做口頭補充好所以就不做口頭補充好謝謝那"},{"start":2817.728,"end":2840.379,"text":"接下来我们就机关代表说明完毕相关的书面资料请各位参阅并列入公报记录接下来我们要交请学者专家来发言第一位我们邀请宜兰县教师职业工会的肖嘉怡理事长请上发言台谢谢"},{"start":2846.956,"end":2855.801,"text":"主席好 委員好還有各位現場的教育先進然後我們的公部門的官員代表還有現場的記者"},{"start":2858.137,"end":2882.603,"text":"媒體大家好我是宜蘭縣教師職業工會理事長肖佳儀自己本身也是宜蘭縣裡面的教審會的委員跟非學的審議會的委員目前也是實驗教育學生的家長我想帶來一些我們在於現場的一些觀察然後來跟各位先進做一些討論跟分享"},{"start":2884.043,"end":2906.749,"text":"首先看到一些教育現場的實務現象包括在承辦單位對於實驗教育的理解這理解常常在於對我們的實驗教育現場會造成一些摩擦跟不諒解例如在義務教育的部分就是涉及學校"},{"start":2908.149,"end":2926.137,"text":"學校部分要提供一些就是相關的硬體設備的資源或者是特教學生的資源跟輔導諮商的資源但這部分呢其實學生在需求這些資源的時候會受到一些的困難那原因是因為在現場"},{"start":2928.859,"end":2952.862,"text":"涉及學校的學校他們已經有自己運作的模式包括課程的設計但是因為自學生他們的課程往往跟學校他是有一個不一樣的一個模式所以我們在提出這些申請跟需求的時候在學校方並不是很容易可以做一個配合所以在特教資源跟輔導資源的部分"},{"start":2953.382,"end":2973.027,"text":"常常就会是被漏接因为没有学校没有办法提供相对应的资源那这些孩子就会等于就是被被晾在一旁所以这是我们在教育现场一个一个看见那另外呢就是在承办单位或者是在委员会的时候就是"},{"start":2975.007,"end":2990.888,"text":"飛雪的審議委員會也好或者是訪視委員也好對於實驗教育的精神的掌握度沒有辦法那麼貼近現場的時候往往給的意見也會造成一些的衝突例如我們在進行飛雪的訪視的時候"},{"start":2992.23,"end":3014.097,"text":"那委員他可能不理解就是我們實驗學校實驗的參加實驗學習的學生他們在於對於自己的生涯的規劃或者是適性的探索方面其實是有別於一般的學校但是可能委員給的建議都是屬於是屬於一般學校裡面的建議因此在現場裡面就會"},{"start":3015.137,"end":3034.79,"text":"在對話的時候就產生蠻大的衝突所以這部分也是我們在現場會看到一個比較需要去調整的一個情況那再來就是在偏遠學校公辦公營的部分那這部分對於我們偏遠學校來講是解方"},{"start":3035.47,"end":3060.282,"text":"也不是解方那是解方的原因是因為學校他可能還是可以有繼續存續的一個空間但不是解方的部分就是當一個實驗教育的課程進入到公辦公營的學校裡面的時候公辦公營的學校他還是在既有的一個體制之下去做一個課程的運作但是呢需要這麼這麼少的偏遠學校的"},{"start":3061.162,"end":3088.974,"text":"這麼少的人力資源還要去運轉一個這麼龐大的實驗教育的課程的時候其實對學校來講是負擔很大所以這個公辦公營的部分在資源的部分或許是可以再做一些的調整那對於學校來講可能也會讓這個課程可以再持續的再去做一個延伸而不是就是在教育現場它變成是一個是解方也不是解方的一個困境"},{"start":3089.634,"end":3117.027,"text":"好那再來呢就是對於這個非學型態的學生來說目前呢在義務教育階段就是114學年度是有一個特殊生的一個補助但是呢這個特殊生的補助他有一個相關的一個限制他並不是就是可以加入這個團體之後就可以試用他還是必須要減負非常多的一個單據那其實對於這個非學的學生來講就是造成一個"},{"start":3118.562,"end":3140.939,"text":"滿大的一個困擾所以這部分是希望可以讓這個行政流程是更加的簡化當成是就是一般性常態的一個補助那再來就是要討論的就是閒置空間的一個媒合那目前在教學現場的狀況這個媒合的部分可能還是要看縣市政府的一個態度"},{"start":3141.9,"end":3163.503,"text":"那這部分我們是希望在縣市政府可以去盤點現場的一個教室的餘育空間之後可以主動來跟這個實驗教育的團體來做一個媒合那降低實驗教育團體在尋求這個場地的時候受到的一些困難跟一些阻礙"},{"start":3164.144,"end":3173.589,"text":"所以這部分也是希望可以在空間的部分先是政府可以主動媒合的一個態度來協助實驗團體來尋找這個空間最後我要談的就是在公辦民營的退場跟轉型"},{"start":3182.954,"end":3201.013,"text":"在公辦民營的一個學校的教育裡面在退場跟轉型這部分縣市政府也應該是提供更多的協助跟輔導讓這個課程可以在轉型的時候是有一個"},{"start":3203.296,"end":3226.898,"text":"专业的人才去进驻然后让学校的转型呢可以是更加的顺遂不然就是在原本的一个课程机制他要再去做一个变化的时候其实不管是对于学校的老师或者是学生跟家长都会充满了很多的困难跟不确定性那以上呢是我这边的说明谢谢大家"},{"start":3231.18,"end":3238.986,"text":"謝謝那接下來我們就有請第二位是台灣教育實驗聯盟的魏坤斌理事長發言請開始嗎"},{"start":3250.863,"end":3265.57,"text":"主席 吳立華委員 還有我們教育部的政事 還有我們國教署的許副署長非常感謝今天我們的召委 吳立華委員這麼有魄力的召開這樣的公聽會"},{"start":3266.71,"end":3287.393,"text":"那另外也非常感謝我們張亮政事不論從他議員時代立委時代一直到我們政事時代都一直在關心實驗教育那另外我們教文會裡面的陳培宇委員還有張雅玲委員葛如今委員都非常關心實驗教育的發展才有這場公聽會我是台灣實驗教育聯盟的理事長魏坤斌"},{"start":3288.374,"end":3314.149,"text":"我們從倡議立法一直到107年修法一直到這一段時間都一直在不斷的收集各個實驗教育的面向還有一些遇到的問題那如果今天一場公聽會就可以把所有實驗教育修法必須要的草案跟疑難雜症通通彙整7分鐘不要講說可以講的完即便70分鐘都講不完"},{"start":3315.63,"end":3341.073,"text":"一個簡單的修法可能在立法城市裡面少則半年多則一年那在民間的收羅跟意見收集少則是一年以上所以我想借這個機會先談一談如果我們要進行修法在整個概念上我們必須要先有什麼樣的想法所以我不會進入到具體的條文請問一下這個是跳不動"},{"start":3346.207,"end":3364.699,"text":"對不起 這時間可以暫停嗎對 時間暫停好 因為那個電腦筆太遠 所以我只能換位置 抱歉"},{"start":3383.434,"end":3395.226,"text":"谢谢各位的耐心等候趁这段时间我也做一个补充报告如果各位选择另外一个发言台也是可以的"},{"start":3408.837,"end":3409.578,"text":"非常抱歉技術問題"},{"start":3449.048,"end":3476.839,"text":"我想做實驗教育的人應該要有一些彈性那如果位置不適合我就站在這個地方看著我們主管機關跟我們召委大家關心的議題我們用這樣的方式來進行那如果說一個簡單的概念這句話大家都懂畢竟沒打好樓一定就歪掉那為什麼要提這件事我一直這十幾年來發現我們一定要有證明"},{"start":3478.449,"end":3495.87,"text":"實驗教育這個名稱是當時在時空背景下被創設出來但是它有造成了現在很大的困難所以我們應該要從最核心的地方從正名這個地方開始早期在一般課綱教育之外容許少許的實驗叫教育實驗"},{"start":3497.191,"end":3515.611,"text":"我們現在稱為實驗教育可是基本上這是教育基本法第八條的選擇教育也就是說它已經是課綱教育以外另外形態的形形色色的教育如果我們一定要看到我們的教育的變革這是一個新形態的教育那我們可能就要解構系統性的體制"},{"start":3516.412,"end":3540.077,"text":"所以我們今天要進行修法之前這個是技術問題必須要拉高層次去看如果立法院今天立法給了一把劍行政部門他才有辦法去斬斷現在糾結糾葛在一起的亂麻那請問各位可以看到這一窩蛋裡面有孔雀蛋有鴨蛋雞蛋煙醇蛋請問一下該是哪一隻鳥或者哪一隻雞鴨窩鴨來孵"},{"start":3544.002,"end":3570.259,"text":"一部非學條例 實驗三法它想要打包各種類型的教育選擇教育裡面的非學大家都知道表格裡面要去填我到底是屬於普高 技高 還是重高我都已經是自學我還要去填我到底是屬於哪一種普高 技高 重高是高級中等教育法裡面規範我們現在在全台灣的地方裡面有國教科 有學管科 有小教科 還有特教科"},{"start":3570.839,"end":3594.139,"text":"到底我們的實驗教育應該歸哪一科從這個管理模式我們就可以看到這個教育被對應的思維我們都很習慣稱為原住民族可是原住民族裡面還有各族各有自己的主體性我覺得不管是排安、排灣族、泰雅族、魯凱族他絕對不會只希望他被稱為原住民族就代表"},{"start":3594.759,"end":3620.296,"text":"那我們的非學型態也是一樣所有機構團體個人他的形形態態都一樣一個非學的名稱就能夠代表全部嗎因為這個非學校所以他沒有學籍沒有學籍就造成性平校安事件等等很多的問題他所有的體制都要去比照學校所以這個是一個非常不合理的名稱也是亂象的根源所以沒有人"},{"start":3621.196,"end":3650.656,"text":"縣市政府沒有人敢當承辦人一年換過一個大概都是可能戒掉教師我們一桶湯裡面既有飯有菜有牛排有麵組成一桶可是想吃牛排的怎麼辦想吃披薩的怎麼辦所以它會形成一個亂不適合大家的需要所以最好的方法就是要有專法把剛剛的那一窩蛋分槽各自去孵自己的蛋才能適得其所"},{"start":3652.477,"end":3668.031,"text":"實驗教育三法立法今年已經進入到第十一年了那所以呢所有的教育發展都長大就像一個人他還要穿著小時候的衣服去修修改改這個童裝一定會讓你的身體扭曲所以穿著西裝改西裝永遠不會合身"},{"start":3669.192,"end":3685.152,"text":"那我覺得在教育基本法選擇教育的架構底下應該要分類定定專法比如說原住民族的文化教育你現在再教他實驗他絕對受不了因為我不是短時間試試看所以應該要在"},{"start":3685.532,"end":3714.107,"text":"原住民族的文化教育裡面去上涉原住民族的學校專法那個人團體這種自學類別的最103年的時候是叫自主學習條例的草案機構學校這種學校或類學校的民間辦學組織應該他有另外的選擇教育的體系那如果公立學校因為他沒有要跳脫課綱太多他只是想要創新發展他想要去轉型做一些改變"},{"start":3714.787,"end":3731.389,"text":"所以另外可以在重新發展條例裡面或偏鄉或國教法裡面去處理另外現在大家都很需要的雙語國際等等也應該要有專法去引導所以呢我們要有對應的法治政策預算才能讓實驗教育各得其所"},{"start":3732.762,"end":3754.682,"text":"我們現在面臨最大的問題我舉個例子剛剛也提過沒有場域你再好的教育理念都沒辦法實現就很像主廚你是三星主廚沒有菜你也沒辦法做現在各縣市呢他把學校閒置用地餘育空間都給誰條例裡面明明規定要給實驗教育他卻拿去做運動中心文化社福"},{"start":3756.007,"end":3773.987,"text":"我們的升學路徑就很像很荒謬的找一個舉重的選手裁判規則去選一個游泳場所我們這些參與實驗教育的學生不受課綱限制大學學生就只能用課綱命題選材所以實驗教育走到一半就要換鬼"},{"start":3775.362,"end":3802.197,"text":"這是過去我大大小小從2017年一路一直提的修法建議跟意見這些我可以整理成一本書但是我們要做的是在同一個場合2021年8月14日也召開這樣的公聽會在座很多先進專家都在場我想要呼籲我們的決心願意有多大我們還要等幾個五年希望大家一起努力實現專法 謝謝"},{"start":3804.414,"end":3822.434,"text":"好 非常感谢台湾教育实验联盟魏坤斌理事长带来他多年的心得那继肖家宜理事长魏坤斌理事长之后我们第三位邀请的是五印实验教育机构计划主持人李友诚老师请"},{"start":3841.562,"end":3850.669,"text":"OK 大家好 我是實驗教育的工作者今天的內容針對的是非學校型態的實驗教育下一頁其實下一頁"},{"start":3852.113,"end":3869.336,"text":"其實一般人對實驗教育的認知還是很模糊他們認為都只是有錢人可以讀的或是都是在做精英教育那我們認為相關的宣導還有落實其實還是有相當程度的不理想近年來兩套數據其實大家都看過下一頁下一頁"},{"start":3870.618,"end":3890.568,"text":"下一頁那這些數據告訴我們的是呢政府需要正視這個持續在成長的教育需求它不是邊緣現象我們可以預知的是這兩個體制的人數會越來越接近它需要更清楚的定位還有長期的規劃否則就是教育資源的極大浪費下一頁"},{"start":3891.648,"end":3909.301,"text":"為什麼這麼說呢?每年教育改革都不斷被討論,可是要期待一個體制可以從內部進行改革實在是太難了。尤其是體制內的教育者每個都是專業人士,大半輩子都在鑽研同一個標準的做法,有固定的思維模式也是可以預見的。"},{"start":3910.823,"end":3926.762,"text":"這個就是實驗教育的價值還有機會所在應該要作為教育改革的有力貢獻者它不是體制的累贅反而應該被當作是為體制創造價值的一部分應該同樣被重視還有被支持下一頁"},{"start":3927.785,"end":3949.308,"text":"下一頁那除了原有的宗旨之外我們還認為實驗教育有另外一個使命就是要作為國家教育體系的研發還有創新引擎提供一個想像還有對話的跳板我們目前有很多顯著的結構性障礙讓實驗教育沒有辦法良好發展下一頁"},{"start":3952.551,"end":3965.441,"text":"以公共空間為例少子化讓許多學校出現了很多閒置空間我們可以看到有教室可能一天只用一次或是一個禮拜只用一次甚至有教室是用來被堆積舊的課桌椅還有雜物的"},{"start":3967.463,"end":3991.168,"text":"然而當我們想要申請這些公共空間的使用權的時候學校常常會回應教師會不同意家長會不同意甚至有荒廢超過一整個學年以上的空間也被宣稱為已有安排這不只是公共資源的浪費對於同樣身為國民也有在繳稅的實驗教育家庭來講是極大的不公平下一頁"},{"start":3992.308,"end":4012.063,"text":"當然有外來的單位想要進駐學校也是可能會帶來麻煩的理念還有做法的不同會帶來許多的摩擦除了事也有責任歸屬的問題那這樣子看來合作對於公立學校好像完全沒有好處只有額外的工作所以我們建議主管機關應該要建立一套"},{"start":4012.964,"end":4027.774,"text":"公立與實驗合作的評鑑加分機制對於那些積極合作案例要加以獎勵這樣子才能達到1加1大於2的效果實驗教育也才能為國家教育盡一份努力下一頁"},{"start":4028.874,"end":4046.161,"text":"在教學補助方面每年投入在每一名體制內學生的公共預算大約是22.5到25萬元之間大的城市可能還會更高相比之下一整家實驗教育機構可以申請的補助第一年是20萬第二年開始就是10萬"},{"start":4047.501,"end":4070.993,"text":"而且還會被砍到只剩下一半的預算有數十名整個實驗教育機構能得到的補助不到體制內學生的一半難怪大家都覺得實驗教育只有有錢人才可以讀大家同樣都在繳稅都是同樣的國民如果我們想要告訴自己我們的社會崇尚多元價值那麼我們的預算分配也應該要體現這樣子的價值觀下一頁"},{"start":4074.471,"end":4078.487,"text":"其實這個想法這個分配的事情有很多人也有提過"},{"start":4079.744,"end":4104.901,"text":"下一頁另外一個現況就是實驗教育的經驗還有創新成果是很難跟體制教育分享的事實上體制內的老師是沒有理由來進行交流的他們自己的工作已經夠繁忙了也看不出交流對他們來講有什麼好處這也是為什麼我們剛才提到需要建立一個獎勵機制特別是針對那些對實驗教育有興趣了解或是參與的老師"},{"start":4106.562,"end":4117.016,"text":"可能是進修的補助或是減輕他們的授課負擔要製造這個機會還有推力來造成合作下一頁我們真正希望看到的下一頁"},{"start":4118.106,"end":4135.823,"text":"就是這兩個體制的深度交流像是讓實驗教育的學生也可以收回於體制內的優勢像是特殊的教室或是設備或是特殊專業的老師體制的老師也會有機會在沒有課綱壓力之下進行自己想要嘗試的教學活動下一頁"},{"start":4136.684,"end":4154.372,"text":"同時實驗教育也應該把自己所開發在體制內課綱比較難見到的課程還有活動提供出來讓體制內的學生還有老師可以一起參加下一頁我們最期待的就是有機會和主流教育分享我們的成果還有創新的經驗帶來創新還有反思的機會下一頁"},{"start":4158.694,"end":4185.08,"text":"這種交流應該是推動教改最好的方式可是它不可能只靠由下而上個別的推動它需要的是主管機關成立一個大框架也要必須給支持還有獎勵下一頁最後實驗教育需要的是更確實的定義還有治理首先就是要釐清什麼才是實驗教育如果做的跟私校補習班甚至留學代辦一模一樣的事情也是實驗教育的話"},{"start":4185.74,"end":4210.996,"text":"那是誤導大眾,更是抹煞了原本的創新的使命再來,在現行的法規之下,現行的做法之下不符合學術誠心的狀況,像是成績造假或是幽靈學生的狀況很容易發生在財務方面也很容易有資金挪用不實報帳或是負責人的私人開支爆成營運支出等同背信還有業務侵佔的現象也是很容易出現的"},{"start":4212.738,"end":4234.028,"text":"我們可能會覺得違反設立宗旨財務不實、沉積造假只要家長沒有抱怨其實就沒有什麼大不了可是我們必須要記得這些機構負責的是台灣下一代的教育重任如果我們不針對這件事情去處理的話就是埋下未來混亂不守法治的社會種子"},{"start":4235.248,"end":4254.758,"text":"我想在此特別請主管機關一定要重視否則台灣這個創新教育的優質體系會被少數的不良分子所破壞實在是不值得我們有匯集一份多家實驗教育現場經驗的報告想要提供給各位長官"},{"start":4255.678,"end":4267.992,"text":"我們都是老師可能不太懂法律術語可是這都是我們真實的經驗還有請求也希望長官有機會可以來第一線來看看和我們進行直接的對話非常感謝各位謝謝"},{"start":4269.77,"end":4292.768,"text":"好谢谢无印实验教育机构的计划主持人有诚那他说有提出一个请求就是我们有机会去看看所以也许我们可以排一个教文考察如果有兴趣备看的机构或学校等一下会后留个资料好不好可以教育部圆明会"},{"start":4293.308,"end":4301.495,"text":"好谢谢那接下来我们有请黎明技术学院的通识中心李文琦主任来发言请"},{"start":4315.128,"end":4336.594,"text":"主席吳委員還有張立昊事監製長以及各位長官以及在座的專家學者大家早我是黎明基礎學院同事中心主任大家一定會覺得很奇怪實驗教育跟技術學院有什麼關係其實我先簡單介紹一下我的背景我之前是在最早是在烏來國中校擔任校長"},{"start":4337.634,"end":4365.863,"text":"然後接著到新莊的福音國中擔任校長那在擔任校長這十幾年當中其實很榮幸的有機會去接觸到實驗教育還有原住民教育所以剛剛看到吳遠站那邊因為以前吳遠在蒂摩爾擔任校長的時候我們就承接國教院的一個原住民跟實驗教育的研究計畫然後到全省各地去參訪原住民學校"},{"start":4366.523,"end":4384.567,"text":"還有實驗教育學校所以這十幾年來會一直在新北市的實驗教育審議會裡面擔任委員那今天很高興在這個場合當中跟各位長官先進來分享其中有關於今天所討論提綱的兩點比較我個人比較關心的"},{"start":4388.649,"end":4406.91,"text":"在實驗教育的一個參與過程當中我一直覺得說既然在2014年我們實驗教育三法已經入法之後那現在我去訪視很多學校那很多實驗教育的機構或是學校他都跟我講就是說很難找老師"},{"start":4407.971,"end":4431.91,"text":"很難找老師所以我今天就針對這個保障老師的一個實驗教育老師的一個保障跟誘因來跟大家提出我的看法現行的制度,實驗教育確實是面臨人才流失的一個危機現在實驗教育不管是機構或是團體老師一般都是所謂的勞工保險"},{"start":4432.998,"end":4450.567,"text":"那這些充滿熱忱的實驗教育的一個老師未來在考取公立學校正式教師之後他的實驗教育的服務年資卻無法併入敘薪來體恤可是相對的我們知道從這個學年度開始"},{"start":4452.648,"end":4478.598,"text":"代理老師的年資可以全面的提續結果我們就發現一個現象同樣是在中小學擔任教師代理老師可以併入正式年資的提續而實驗教育從事的教師卻不行那這樣的差別待遇就讓我們覺得說對實驗教育的一個專業就比較不重視好 下一頁"},{"start":4480.441,"end":4508.212,"text":"那我們覺得說既然我們的實驗教育三法已經入法了那為了保障留住我們優秀的實驗教育的師資我個人是覺得說實驗教育的參與教師年資的一個並續跟續薪的保障應該我們應該比照我們所謂不管是正式老師或是代理教師一樣來看因此我個人提出本身的建議好 下一頁"},{"start":4509.773,"end":4536.212,"text":"因為我又看了一下這次公聽會所提供的資料這邊裡面有原住民族學校法草案當中有幾位委員對於原住民族學校法草案提出了一些看法黃委員在第24條裡面他也明定說符合教育人員任用條例且具一般公立學校的各級原住民族學校教師的資格"},{"start":4537.072,"end":4555.054,"text":"他說後面與轉任學校核序資格的時候他的服務年資得併於採序那在高金委員的第29條裡面也一樣明訂服務年資然後在吳委員裡面第26條裡面也是有這樣的一個保障好 下一個"},{"start":4556.872,"end":4572.091,"text":"那所以說在這三份委員提出立法精神不約而同指出在原住民族學制跟一般學制之間流動的教師他的年資要保障還有續薪的依據"},{"start":4573.132,"end":4596.65,"text":"那我個人認為原住民族學校這樣具備獨立學制特殊教育理念的一個系統竟然可以做到年資並蓄同樣的我個人也是覺得說在實驗教育體制下的老師的年資我也認為說應該比照這樣的一個法理精神在實驗教育三法當中予以明文的一個保障好 以下 再來"},{"start":4599.602,"end":4620.107,"text":"那如何保障跟誘因我覺得有以下幾點的一個做法第一個確立實驗教育教師年資提序的一個機制我建議我們主管機關能夠比照原住民族學校草案學校法的草案的精神在學校形態"},{"start":4621.847,"end":4645.954,"text":"實驗教育實施條例跟非學校型態實驗教育實施條例的相關執法當中是不是能夠徵定凡在合法立案的實驗教育機構或是學校擔任教職的一個學校人員他後面如果取得公立學校正式教師資格者他在實驗教育的實際服務年資得予何序新給予合併採記下一頁"},{"start":4649.994,"end":4663.939,"text":"然後我們想說也為了避免過於腐爛所以希望能夠建立嚴謹的年資認證跟轉換的一個標準那在高經委員的草案裡面他有提到得經認證"},{"start":4665.62,"end":4692.669,"text":"那主管機關不管是教育部或是各縣市教育局可以訂定實驗教育服務年資認證的辦法明定在實驗教育的機構裡面應該是專任或全職的然後具有考核紀錄者經主管機關審核認證才可以發給年資證明這樣提升他的嚴謹度然後加碼誘因提供我們實驗教育教師公費進修的一個管道"},{"start":4693.337,"end":4712.696,"text":"讓他是不是能夠取得正式的教師資格好下一頁下一頁好所以總結我們是希望說原住民如教師或是實驗教育從事的教師都能夠對他們年資有所保障好下一頁"},{"start":4714.145,"end":4742.693,"text":"接下來有關於非學校型態時間教育條例的第四條建構金字塔型的一個招生結構那我個人也是覺得說非常非常贊成就因為現行的狀況是國中小加起來是250位可是常常教育局的一個審議委員也提出來說那如果小學多到國中少那這些小學生要怎麼辦也因此在這次的修法裡面明定國小"},{"start":4743.994,"end":4763.789,"text":"250人 國中跟高中各150人我個人是對於這樣的一個草案非常贊成好 以上謝謝好 謝謝黎明基數學院通識中心李文綺主任就師資還有年資銜接的部分去做一個修法的建言那接下來我們邀請"},{"start":4765.356,"end":4773.789,"text":"葛如君委員他也是我們教文上一期的教委那現在有請葛如君委員發言"},{"start":4782.25,"end":4796.739,"text":"主席各位列席的专家学者代表在场的教育部官员以及记者朋友们大家好本席自就任立委以来持续的关心实验教育的议题及我国实验教育的发展"},{"start":4798.134,"end":4826.973,"text":"那我自己是阿宅啊,我们科技圈或者是非常多的职业的好朋友们,其实也都把孩子们送到实验学校的环境,实验教育的环境当中,也都非常认同这样的一个发展方针。那本席认为啊,让每个孩子不受家庭社会经济条件的拘束,都可以有平等的机会选择自己喜欢而且合适的教育方式,是落实教育平权的唯一真谛。"},{"start":4828.234,"end":4856.576,"text":"一样米羊百样人我自己小时候也是个怪咖那我非常有幸能够在一个良好的充满弹性的教育环境当中发展我们也相信每个孩子都能够找到最适合他的教育方式因此民国112年国民教育法大幅修正的时候针对六条新增第二项的未协助实验教育之发展主管机关应定定相关辅助规定"},{"start":4857.867,"end":4875.594,"text":"立法的意旨非常清楚国家既然承认实验教育是教育体系当中的正当选项就不能也不应该只在理念上支持却在资源上放任它自生自灭更不能让实验教育沦为只有特定家庭负担得起的选项"},{"start":4876.334,"end":4894.815,"text":"那我们再说一次第六条新增第二项为协助实验教育之发展主管机关应订定相关补助规定然而三年的时间过去了我们看到教育部今天的书面报告还是指出114学年度全国实验教育学生人数已经高达27960人"},{"start":4897.938,"end":4913.475,"text":"而且人在稳定成长这代表什么代表实验教育不只是少数人的选项而是越来越多家庭真实而且迫切的需求但是令人遗憾的是114学年度教育部对于实验教育的补助啊却只有3641万元"},{"start":4916.96,"end":4945.466,"text":"换算下来相当于实验教育体系当中的学生每年每人一年只分配到1300元新台币平均一天不到4块钱本席在此要严肃的来请问教育部一天不到4元的资源投入究竟要如何协助实验教育的发展这样的预算编列是在回应法律的要求还是在敷衍法律的制度"},{"start":4946.346,"end":4969.278,"text":"是在落实教育平权还是在用象征性的数字来掩盖制度性的怠惰呢本席必须也希望能够提醒教育部这不只是教育政策态度的问题更是宪法与人权义务的问题我国宪法第159条明确昭示国民受教育之机会"},{"start":4969.918,"end":4991.514,"text":"一律平等而联合国的儿童权利公约所揭示保障及促进儿童及少年权利之规定在我国也据法律之效力儿童权利公约第28条明确规定缔约国确认儿童有接受教育之权利为使此项权利"},{"start":4992.665,"end":5017.492,"text":"能於機會平等之基礎上逐步實現締約國由因第一實現全面的免費義務小學教育第二鼓勵發展不同型態之中等教育包括普通教育職業教育使所有兒童均能進入就讀並採取適當措施諸如實行免費教育以及對有需求者提供財務協助"},{"start":5019.592,"end":5036.266,"text":"結果教育部現行對於實驗教育的補助對象仍然侷限於低收中低收以及身心障礙之學校教育形態的學生完全違背了憲法所揭示的國民有平等受教育的權利"},{"start":5037.728,"end":5061.187,"text":"教育部对于实验教育学生的差别待遇不只违法甚至有可能违宪最重要的是完全背离了教育平权的精神这样的补助设计实际上忽略了实验教育家庭所面临的普遍性负担也忽略了国家对多元教育选择本应承担的知识责任"},{"start":5062.188,"end":5090.341,"text":"此外本席也希望能够提醒教育部当实验教育逐步成长规模持续扩大之际国家关心的不能只有数量增加更必须正视品质的治理今天教育部的书面报告有提到各类型实验教育的数量都在增加这固然反映了社会的需求但数量成长绝不等于品质的提升近年来我们已经看到一些新设的实验学校"},{"start":5091.311,"end":5118.391,"text":"打着双语教育国际教育的旗号招生却被不少专家批评本质上更像是梅雨补习班一般补习班的延伸恐怕要变成超级补习班过度聚焦于特定技能的训练而忽略孩子的整体人格认知社会性与公民素养的完整发展这样的一种现象"},{"start":5119.653,"end":5142.737,"text":"已经偏离实验教育原本的精神实验教育的价值从来不是把教育商品化品牌化更不是用看似新潮的包装取代真正的教育理念与课程实践倘若主管机关对此缺乏足够的监督与把关任由补习班业者挂羊头卖狗肉"},{"start":5144.175,"end":5161.813,"text":"以實驗教育之名行補習教育之實那麼被侵蝕的不會只是教育的本質更是社會對整體實驗教育制度的信任還有我們的下一代在面對這樣類型的實驗教育的時候所受到的影響"},{"start":5163.083,"end":5191.983,"text":"因此本席希望能够在此明确提出三点要求第一教育部应紧述依国民教育法之立法一旨全面检讨并且提出更具实质意义的实验教育补助制度而不是用象征性的经费每人每天平均四块钱新台币这样子的一种平均分配的金额来象征性的编列敷衍"},{"start":5193.22,"end":5208.238,"text":"法律的責任第二教育部從真正落實平等受教權與教育選擇權的角度出發針對實驗教育建立更公平更合理更可禁用的知識體系第三"},{"start":5209.591,"end":5230.499,"text":"教育部应启动对于实验教育三法施行成效的总体检尤其要强化品质监督防止实验教育逐渐补习般化如有必要应该全盘来检讨实验三法是否有必要在未来可能成为专法的一种可能性"},{"start":5231.619,"end":5259.849,"text":"最后本席想要再次强调实验教育从来不是教育体制的例外而是教育改革的试金石国家如何对待实验教育反映的甚是我们如何理解孩子如何理解公平如何理解国家的责任如果一个社会口口声声说尊重多元保障选择创造实验就让孩子的教育选择权呢取决于家长口袋的深度"},{"start":5260.836,"end":5277.507,"text":"如果一个政府一方面高谈教育的创新,另外一方面却用一天不到四块钱新台币的资源来对待接近三万名的实验教育学生,那么我们所辜负的将不只是法律,更是下一代对国家的信任。"},{"start":5278.368,"end":5293.429,"text":"我們相信有今天這樣的一個公聽會我們也非常感謝我們五六R主席以及我們所有全體的立法委員都會一起來關注教育不該只有一種標準的答案但國家負有一個明確的責任"},{"start":5293.789,"end":5314.254,"text":"那就是不论孩子走的是哪一种学习的道路只要是合法正当符合教育本质的道路国家就有义务给予平等的尊重与实质的支持这才是真正的教育平权这才是我们今天讨论实验教育的时候应该共同守住的底线"},{"start":5315.074,"end":5342.095,"text":"再次感謝我們教委安排今天的實驗教育公聽會也非常感謝諸位的與會以及專家學者所提供的寶貴意見我們會後都會仔細的研讀現場我們會來聆聽同時我們也希望能夠我們跨黨團跨黨派的我們一起來研議如何能夠讓實驗教育做得更好謝謝大家謝謝葛如君委員那接下來"},{"start":5343.462,"end":5346.866,"text":"有請葛文君委員擔任主席 謝謝接下來有請伍麗華召委發言"},{"start":5363.03,"end":5379.17,"text":"謝謝葛維鈞主席在這邊要跟所有與會的專家學者說一聲感謝因為剛才我在前言中有提到在過去很多年以前我們都一起努力過"},{"start":5380.231,"end":5400.175,"text":"为了我们现在所看到的很多元的一个教育形态的方式一起的希望能够有法治来让这些事情变得更为制度化合法化那经过了10年也走了10年我们依旧看到有很多需要再努力"},{"start":5400.615,"end":5417.444,"text":"的部分那今天大家再次同台希望呢很快就會有好結果那我在這邊也要做一個發言這邊是我在2022年我已經是立法委員有一次我有受邀參加一個KAS"},{"start":5417.884,"end":5444.692,"text":"也就是德國的一個智庫他們做的一個亞太教育政策的交流工作方那我們是透過視訊的方式在那個當中計畫主持人是一位叫楊亦凡在那個會議之後其實他在這一次的公聽會之前都有提供很多的建言我也藉這個機會把他的意見也能夠表達出來"},{"start":5446.073,"end":5463.83,"text":"其實他是說我個人是常常在講我們都知道當時我們都說是依據特定的教育理念來辦理實驗教育特定的教育理念那當時我是代表原住民族群"},{"start":5464.651,"end":5486.692,"text":"那到底援助民族參與這個實驗教育是不是有特定的教育理念我想當然是有的但是這個地方的說法是說接住我們社會中的每一個孩子例如如果我們的孩子他有民族文化的需求我們可以來辦"},{"start":5487.893,"end":5514.278,"text":"有的是面對區域發展的需求或者階級與經濟條件的需求身心狀態不同的特質或者是教育系統研發社會前瞻各種教育典範我們都可以來辦理這個實驗教育所以在這個當中我們到底要築的是更高的牆還是更密的網那因此呢"},{"start":5514.818,"end":5529.227,"text":"我們就有如剛才魏坤斌理事長所說的他應該不是一個補丁的方式修修補補穿的衣服既不美觀也不合身那麼我們需要的是一個支持"},{"start":5529.827,"end":5550.84,"text":"更多的一個支持那希望可以讓制度內外的這個縫隙可以消失因此我們如果從守門人變成了陪跑員也就是以今天這幾個我們匡列的議題主題來看的話像是從審博制轉向支持治理我們不應該從審博他過還是不過對還是不對"},{"start":5556.824,"end":5580.764,"text":"应该是转向去评估他还缺少什么支持我们应该给予什么样的资源所以实验教育审议会的主要功能不仅仅是准博应该要协助去需求的厘清资源的媒合高风险个案追踪等等然后以身心与关系健康为共同的底线指标"},{"start":5581.505,"end":5609.914,"text":"那再來就是建立一個學習的基地網絡跟居場所所以這一次也有很多提供說要修法也是針對這個場域的部分那另外呢人文中學他們也特別特別借這個機會說針對公立高級中等以下學校委託私人辦理實驗教育條例他們也有幾個方向那各位其實前面幾位也都有談到"},{"start":5611.074,"end":5636.872,"text":"第一个他说植入实验的规范希望把碎片化排除转向一种制度性的授权赋予计划具备特别法的一个位阶那再来就是希望在财务审计的部分有一个革新建立单一水库的专账用绩效审计来取代明目合肖支持行动学习来收费"},{"start":5637.472,"end":5659.352,"text":"那再來是專業領證的防禦強化審議會專家的比例跟中央再審機制制衡地方的行政濫權因為我知道各位我們在地方辦學其實受地方政府的箝制非常的多那怎麼樣去排除這個部分那再來就是保障勞動尊嚴"},{"start":5661.033,"end":5690.218,"text":"授權現金加班費與實驗津貼留住第一線的專業教師我想大家辦學應該都很清楚師資是學校最重要的資產也是我們最希望能夠長久留任很重要的一個目標但是如果我們都沒有那個誘因那光靠熱忱我想這個是很多學校共同的一個困擾那在這邊我就自己"},{"start":5690.658,"end":5719.779,"text":"原住民教育的部分我也简短的说一下我的一个个人的修法方向意见因为我其实来到立法院是2020年那后来其实我们就马上提出原住民族学校法那为什么会有这个法我也让各位了解一下因为在1989年应该是1998年原住民族教育法立法"},{"start":5720.68,"end":5738.369,"text":"那其中有一個部分要訂定一個執法就是援助民族學校法那截至目前為止呢這個法還是沒有辦法那原因非常多但是我覺得最重要的原因是共識不足"},{"start":5739.372,"end":5765.68,"text":"其實我來到立法院我就立刻提出版本當時呢我們只有三個版本那這三個版本呢又長得完全不一樣也就是說到底什麼是原住民族學校目前呢也說不清那這個部分其實會比較麻煩可是呢我們現在來到這個2026我們有一個實驗教育三法的修法公聽會我們就是希望說與各位就是齊頭並進我們怎麼樣來"},{"start":5768.001,"end":5780.905,"text":"一方面修得更好二方面為原住民族學校法來去找到一個方向那更重要的是原住民實驗學校很多學校在第一年參與的其實到2028年"},{"start":5783.846,"end":5810.953,"text":"就滿了規定的補助12年的一個大限所以很多的實驗學校現在也很迷惘也不知道自己的下一步到底是什麼結束了政府的補助之後那自己到底要變成什麼樣的一個學校所以在這個很多方面其實都造成了很多的學校都希望我們的政府部門不論是園民會或教育部都能夠主動積極的來修法"},{"start":5813.174,"end":5835.969,"text":"或者是修辦法讓大家能夠在下一步有一個前進的方向那當然最後我想要表達的就是說其實對原住民學校來講我們有很多不同的族群每一個不同的族群他到底要長出什麼樣的一個學校師資到底有沒有辦法到位那麼會"},{"start":5837.47,"end":5865.107,"text":"使用一定语言比例的教师他到底要怎么培育他到底在哪里目前我们大概只专注在课程教材的研发但是师资他的一个民族语言文化的能力更是一个关键原住民族学校如果没有了这些称不上是原住民族学校所以这个部分希望我们透过今天的公听会都能够听到"},{"start":5865.487,"end":5879.781,"text":"大家給予政策上的建言在這邊再一次感謝大家也謝謝所有教育文化委員會的委員們能夠有這樣的一個共識決心一同的來促進這次的修法謝謝大家"},{"start":5893.746,"end":5899.37,"text":"好 接下來我們邀請國教行動聯盟理事長王漢陽理事長發言 請"},{"start":5901.994,"end":5924.881,"text":"好委員還有次長還有各位長官大家好那很高興在今天跟大家分享這個實驗三法的這個部分的修法公聽會那首先我們要稍微了解一下因為我們當我們在做這件事情的時候我們有做過內部調查研究還有包括一些訪談之後得到今天的一個會議資料那所有不足的東西我們後面有QR code我們裡面有一些相"},{"start":5925.461,"end":5952.147,"text":"相關的一些研究資料供大家去做一個更深度的一個參考那首先我們要先講一下實驗三法當時在修法的過程當中其實就是因為公立原本很多特色學校不足那所以有些很有理念的學校他想要來去做一個實驗創新那當然是一個非常鼓勵的動作也鼓勵了一個現象但是實質發展到現在的時候好像已經開始有些變化了怎麼說呢"},{"start":5953.347,"end":5958.531,"text":"第一個108年到113年學生人數是減少27.3萬人但逆勢成長實驗學校學生的人數竟然是27,021人那這種兩個對比我們就要去了解那結構性是不是有什麼不一樣呢"},{"start":5972.422,"end":5999.509,"text":"那深入了解結構發現一件事情就是公立成為了絕對的主體113年公立佔了92.7%114年佔了93.8%那公立佔的這個所謂的實驗學校差別在哪裡呢我們講的都是所謂的公辦公營的部分其實當時在訂所謂的公辦公營的一個實驗條例的時候其實大部分就是以私立的部分為主"},{"start":5999.969,"end":6023.256,"text":"而只有第23條當中是準用功力可是其實怎麼會發現一件事情大家把準用功力在第23條當中大量的變成實際上面功力轉型成實驗學校的依據這是目前現在22縣市正在看到的一個狀況那這不是零星的創新而是高度集中在偏鄉"},{"start":6023.956,"end":6049.442,"text":"第一個公立之外第二個高度集中偏鄉這是一個大家要去注意的問題學校型態有58所在什麼在公立學校佔了45.3%的實驗學校學校型態加尾辦有68校總共有68校佔了47.2在偏鄉那我們非常認同剛才坤彬理事長在講還有文啟理事長在講"},{"start":6050.262,"end":6079.355,"text":"你說公辦的部分公立本身就已經做得很好他當然不用去做實驗學校但是你公立有又是偏鄉那面臨到這些問題他去轉去做實驗學校會不會有老師續薪的問題會不會有各方面面臨到的問題但我們現在22縣市現在的縣市政府正在用這樣的一個制度跟法規來去做這件事情大家要去注意那為什麼會有這種情形第一個少子化"},{"start":6080.055,"end":6098.402,"text":"少校的压力有些学校真的很少我们能体谅说真的很少但真的很少在这届制度上他不是走公立委办的方式哦他不是哦而是公立直接转型实验学校这完全不合商时实验三法当中的一个条例"},{"start":6098.942,"end":6117.621,"text":"那少子化我們知道這個生存的問題第二個在偏鄉的鼓勵辦法當中偏鄉的法則當中其實在間接的在鼓勵這件事情那這個也是現在我們要去注意到的一個狀況包含說我們的一個偏鄉學校的一個教育發展條例"},{"start":6117.881,"end":6142.027,"text":"第17條包含說2017年25條當中的優先補助等等都是變相的讓我們現在的學校好我就利用這個方式在第23條準用當中去轉型成實驗教育第三個補助跟行政誘因的部分也出現了114年的一個行政條例那個實驗教育要點當中一年補助是82萬第二年42萬在補助這些"},{"start":6145.228,"end":6162.704,"text":"公立轉型公立又偏鄉轉型成實驗學校我還再加碼補助你覺得我今天快學校已經面臨危機了我的生存又會開始出現什麼一絲希望再來第四個財病政治成本高為什麼因為我們現有的"},{"start":6164.485,"end":6187.692,"text":"財化法過後不管財化法前後都有一個問題公公病公私病私事病現在暫時都不討論可是事實上少子化大家也都知道這件事情那原因是因為這綁了一些中央的一個補助計畫的部分所以大家不敢談這件事情縣市政府也不做這件事情第五個為什麼會有這種情形"},{"start":6188.192,"end":6215.702,"text":"當然就是親子階也有在講實驗品牌家長很喜歡聽到實驗感覺就很棒的那種感覺但事實上有些學校他並不是實驗譬如說華德蒙特梭利他本身就不需要實驗他國外就是百年的你為什麼要做實驗呢那有些其實在這個實驗當中台灣目前現階段現有的論文是一些包含一些直性的研究並不是那麼多那真的在我們在講實驗的背後"},{"start":6218.364,"end":6241.759,"text":"應該要證明或者調整我覺得可能會比較跳蕩否則真的會變成一個蠻大型的學生在被實驗的狀況之下出現那我們遇到了幾個風險我必須去提出來知道這些狀況之後有沒有一些風險呢有第一個就是特教弱勢底線不清楚第23條第4項當中容許部分的特教"},{"start":6242.559,"end":6256.707,"text":"是不是用這個規定但事實上我們已經有2021年我們有做過一些了解跟調查發現其實現階段的實驗學到當中他其實是隱性的在排擠特教生什麼意思他沒有資源嗎"},{"start":6257.287,"end":6274.703,"text":"所以你問他特教適不適合來他無法回答你打電話問他他也沒辦法回答你再來他比較去稍微引進排擠哪些學生我也可以直接跟各位去了解看就是情緒障礙的學生這方面其實是很弱勢在這個方面的所以底線不夠清楚"},{"start":6275.003,"end":6299.309,"text":"第三個家長選擇權可能形式化有些在偏鄉被迫轉型成實驗學校問請家長簽這個同意書的那請他簽這個同意書他說他不能不同意啊可是我原本有選擇的可是現在你逼著你要轉型那不然你就要載小孩子下山去什麼30分鐘50分鐘去什麼去公立學校去念你到底要不要哇他一時之間不知道怎麼辦啊"},{"start":6300.069,"end":6315.451,"text":"那你教他怎麼去選擇他很難選擇第三個成效的一個驗證跟退場的不足我們都談很快的開始開放但是實際的成效跟問責狀況是怎麼樣我們真的會很擔心說那接下來少子化人口再少"},{"start":6315.751,"end":6331.241,"text":"更多的情形之下這些實驗學校會成為一個什麼樣的情形我們就不知道了那幾個建議第一個是制度要拆分教教育創新跟到底是保校求生這件事情要去區分開來那也就是去把它分清楚"},{"start":6331.621,"end":6359.571,"text":"正常應該是公立委辦的部分去進行第二個是不能排除一些底線到底特教當中什麼是不能列入在特教當中什麼是不行的你可以有這樣的彈性要把它講清楚最後就是要有一個成效跟退場機制的一個驗證那後面兩個我們就來不及講了但是我稍微去講哪些不能排除的在特教當中要去明定清楚一個負面表現清楚到底哪些是"},{"start":6360.071,"end":6374.01,"text":"那最後各國的一些經驗其實告訴我們一件事情我們跟其他國家不一樣我們的鬆綁快但問責是慢的那國外當中很多是自治包含加持力問責是同時在做進行謝謝大家"},{"start":6375.571,"end":6390.376,"text":"谢谢国教行动联盟的王汉阳理事长接下来我们有请继续前进援助民族教文产业协会的陈慧勋执行长都可以谢谢"},{"start":6396.764,"end":6411.143,"text":"主席各位部會長官以及在場的專家先進大家好我是繼續前進教文產業協會的執行長陳惠勳族名是Vali Ismahasan來自高雄的布農族"},{"start":6411.704,"end":6432.249,"text":"那我覺得今天就是很高興可以在這邊跟各位分享我自己在針對這個議題的一個看見以及後續也提出一些相關的一些建議也可以讓各位就是專家學者各部會的長官做參考那我自己本身其實我們協會"},{"start":6433.869,"end":6461.424,"text":"其實也是在做實驗教育但是這個實驗教育的本位比較不像就是我們公聽法上面的三個所陳列的就是學校的部分以及非學校以及或者是委託士的名義的部分我們是做一個什麼樣的一個實驗教育大家都知道原住民一半以上的人口都已經在都會區那特別是你們知道三到六歲的小朋友有多少個嗎其實很多相關的數據在我的手機"},{"start":6463.185,"end":6481.655,"text":"我們現在除了現有的現行政策跟原文會正在推動的語言潮或者是曾經是保姆以及主語師圖字這些政策都非常的好但是在都會區我們反而發現就是因為已經到我這一代的這些家長我們都已經到都會區了"},{"start":6483.556,"end":6502.531,"text":"那我們如果這一代的語言都不會講我們要怎麼向下去傳承三到六歲所以我們做了一個實驗性的計畫開始在都會區多族多元共同的一個狀況之下我們怎麼樣的繼續去建構三到六歲的一個文化幼兒的一個認知說明我們有一個類似一個多元混零的一個族裔學習計畫"},{"start":6504.833,"end":6522.704,"text":"這個計畫的贅述呢我就因為時間的關係我不再去多贅述那另外一塊呢我們在偏鄉大家都知道原民的孩子一到五呢在學校有學校可以去可是假日呢他們往往是缺乏老師的或是缺乏陪伴的然後又沒有像所謂現在都會去有客服班安親班可以去學習"},{"start":6523.484,"end":6539.574,"text":"所以我們反而在假日媒合一群就是有專業技能的一些運動員或者是專家藝術者我們固定做長期的部落假日多元的一個藝術陪伴多元教育陪伴體育陪伴的一個部分去做"},{"start":6540.054,"end":6556.306,"text":"好為什麼前面我會先講這兩個所以就是要呼應到其實教育的本能本該就是創新本該就是多元我們怎麼樣提供多元的一個學習系統就如同我們現在的這個實驗教育法的這個重要性所以我非常就是肯定就是"},{"start":6557.367,"end":6584.345,"text":"立法委員這次呢召集呢各位專家學者呢我們呢一起來為這個實驗教育法呢後續的發展怎麼樣再做一個更精進所以我們聚集在這邊那我這邊有稍微看了一下就是像是原民會的這個書面報告回應其實都非常的完整那不過呢其中呢有一個小小的一個建議就是也分享給大家就是回應到所謂的民族教育本位的這個制度"},{"start":6588.468,"end":6611.781,"text":"更堅定更堅固的一個發展那怎麼樣我會提醒說可能在於後續的怎麼樣去建構一個部落在地化的一個評量指標系統我覺得會是在後續的一個指標上面的可能需要就是大家的再去多注目的部分大家都知道就是我們原住民族的語言發展模式形式的參考就是"},{"start":6612.681,"end":6630.221,"text":"我們現在奉為就是紐西蘭的毛利族呢他算是我們一直在學習進步的這一塊那大家都知道是什麼意思嗎就是成為一個毛利人那其實我是布農族布農的意思就是人"},{"start":6630.822,"end":6658.908,"text":"人的本位所以我希望就是未來說可能在於如果後續呢在實驗學校的相關的一個文化素養文化評量制度上面呢怎麼樣能夠呢就是去產出一個所謂的回應文化的能力例如說理解的能力運用的能力實踐的能力傳承的能力怎麼樣的讓這個評量的主體性能回歸到"},{"start":6659.608,"end":6682.154,"text":"部落當然透過一些專家學者的參與但是回歸到部落的制度 部落齊老讓整個實驗教育甚至到後面的原住民族學校怎麼樣能夠真正的屬於真正像個部落屬於整個部落的一個制度學校我覺得在於貧糧的部分可能要再麻煩就是園民會或者是教育部這邊後續要再更費心"},{"start":6684.815,"end":6703.306,"text":"那我這邊之後有一個最後一個小小的一個提醒會上剛教育部有提到說就是現行的審議教育制度委員跟評鑑制度如何納入更多的實務經驗或許後續能不能夠開放像是已經畢業的學長姐曾經的是加入過實驗學校的畢業的這些學長姐"},{"start":6705.888,"end":6727.725,"text":"他們也可以一起參與後續審議的一些建議跟給予我相信會更貼近教育的一個現場以及回到我們自己原住民族教育本位的師資培育我非常認同像委員剛講的我們怎麼樣從一個實驗教育轉型到後面的原住民學校的支持所以我認為說"},{"start":6728.826,"end":6745.318,"text":"整體的配套措施法制的定立我們各部會單位才能定位定位後呢向下到我們整個地方政策的延伸去發展我們整套系統的包含失智培育的一個建構跟困境才能夠有一個法源一步一步的去解決"},{"start":6746.158,"end":6774.157,"text":"那最后一个小小的建议其实师资的部分真的是很难找寻像我们自己也在推动一些相关的一些主语教育光是幼儿这一块的一个主语教育去推动找年轻化的部分就非常的少所以未来或许是不是鼓励各大专院校呢在于教育科系的时候有没有可能也可以开设一个实验教育科系因为其实实验科系教育它"},{"start":6774.577,"end":6795.705,"text":"不同于其他的一个本位教育就是因为回到我一开始七分钟前发展的教育本能是多元的是正向的是要给予更多的想象的教育本能就是多元的创新所以我们在科系的开设跟育才的培力也要跟着时代精进更加的具体创新谢谢以上的分享"},{"start":6800.567,"end":6815.058,"text":"提供非常多的一个建言那接下来呢我们邀请的是代表台湾另类技实验教育学会的政大教育学系郑同僚教授请上台发言"},{"start":6822.997,"end":6849.298,"text":"主席各位先進我從2014年就有榮幸參加台灣實驗教育的推動那這些年來我們在國際上包括面對日本、德國、荷蘭、澳洲這些所謂教育比較先進的國家當他們聽說我們實驗教育的體制的時候都非常的羨慕跟敬佩"},{"start":6850.339,"end":6874.461,"text":"所以這套制度我覺得很開心我們在台灣可以有這樣子的先進的方式特別是在AI時代我們是有機會在學習的這個路上給孩子一個更新的出發比較好的可能性我們讓孩子可以回到那個更本質性的學習上面"},{"start":6875.848,"end":6890.291,"text":"不過這些年我們也看到了一些問題所以我簡單的扼要來說明我現在看到一些問題另外會有書面的補充資料那第一個是我們四肢的問題所有的"},{"start":6892.125,"end":6916.536,"text":"機會開放之後如果沒有好的老師一切都是空談我現在特別要談的是公立學校的部分為什麼我們在公立的實驗學校看不到太勇敢的步伐是因為我們的師資依然是傳統的培育方式可是我們的法律允許的其實是根據不同理念來提供實驗教育"},{"start":6917.156,"end":6941.901,"text":"那所以我建議我們現在的師資培育體制應該真正的多元化所謂多元化就是包括像蒙特梭利、華德福、耶拿或是TFT等他們的老師只要他們的學員只要經過一個合可的程序之後就應該有資格來參加我們國家教師的初級的資格初檢"},{"start":6943.421,"end":6966.303,"text":"我們不是說他自動變成老師可是他應該有這個資格那當然這些機構的協會的這個師資培育我們可以有一個認證的過程那這樣子呢我們才有可能讓我們的公立學校引進更多的不同的師資這是第一個我的想法"},{"start":6966.863,"end":6988.757,"text":"第二個就是空間的部分剛剛很多先進也提了特別是在非學的我陪伴很多的機構他們或者是個人的家長他們非常的苦惱這件事情其實現在我們看到很多的大學或者是私立的高職在廢校"},{"start":6989.909,"end":7001.441,"text":"那最後的決定權這些校產最後的決定權其實都要報教育部那我建議教育部應該要有這樣的一個專案提高這些"},{"start":7003.017,"end":7028.497,"text":"廢校校地再利用的優先順位給各縣市的非學機構來優先使用而且用一個比較合理的價格我覺得這個是政府可以做得到也應該要做得到的不要老是讓鄰近的大學又併吞了但是大學其實他們的空間的善用本身未必那麼完整但是不要再跟那些資源匱乏的團體"},{"start":7029.498,"end":7051.325,"text":"私人非學的機構們去搶土地那第三個是我們現在要求非學的孩子在國中小的階段你必須要掛集在鄰近的國中小可是呢資源沒有跟著到位譬如說某A校他有一所"},{"start":7054.054,"end":7067.739,"text":"機構在他旁邊他機構的學生可能超過100人100個孩子掛集在一所公立學校可是這些孩子是被當成幽靈似的因為這些孩子進入這所學校"},{"start":7068.619,"end":7088.095,"text":"掛學籍在這裡可是沒有任何經費跟著這個是剛剛前面有幾位談到不公平我覺得包括這個角度來看都覺得很奇怪你叫要求我們的法律是要求學生要掛學籍喔可是掛了學籍之後卻視而不見我覺得這個不算是一個"},{"start":7089.771,"end":7112.056,"text":"負責任的制度那第四個呢我覺得公立學校實驗學校的比例應該現在要放寬了我們法律是5%每一個階段是5%那實際上現在有很多小校需要轉型超過500所以上50人以下的小校"},{"start":7112.976,"end":7138.378,"text":"這些學校如果我們用比較有彈性的方式讓他們來處理我們未必要眼睜睜的看著學校一手一手關常常公益學校的轉型是一個很好的契機但是我們現在名額限制使得很多的學校他沒有辦法走上這條路所以法制上面應該放寬像現在的5%我建議至少到15%"},{"start":7139.719,"end":7157.613,"text":"因為這種教育方式,實驗教育以自學為主要理念的這種教育是未來的一個趨勢那我們應該容納更多,而不應該在那邊猶豫第五個是公立學校校長遴選應該要專業化"},{"start":7160.051,"end":7183.479,"text":"我們過去這些年協助了一些公立學校轉型但是最後換了校長很可能就不見了因為他只是來當校長然後他不曉得要承擔那麼多事情或是承擔那麼多事情之前他們不知道這個問題有那麼嚴重他需要負擔很多的時間去做改變所以我建議"},{"start":7185.245,"end":7206.495,"text":"校長公立學校校長遴選要專業化就是要能夠獨招簡單的說就是這樣每一所實驗學校要聘校長的時候應該要單獨的招聘不要是大波潮然後最後可能沒有志願可填的填到公校那最後一個呢是我們"},{"start":7207.953,"end":7220.966,"text":"這些年也看到委員對實驗教育哲學的誤解會造成辦學者或者是行政干擾一個非常重要的原因那怎麼樣讓這些審議會"},{"start":7223.877,"end":7247.497,"text":"委員更能夠協助實驗教育機構或者是學校的現場這委員的培訓很重要我建議我們要強制的要求擔任委員必須要經過專業培訓而不是以前當校長我現在就可以出去指點實驗學校我覺得很荒謬我想很多人在現場看到謝謝"},{"start":7251.638,"end":7259.111,"text":"好謝謝鄭同僚教授那接下來呢我們請自主學習促進會的陳怡光理事發言請"},{"start":7260.728,"end":7287.966,"text":"好 主席 各位委員 然後各位實驗教育先進夥伴 大家好 我是宜光我是一個自學家長我的小孩都是自學的 從小學到現在 那已經畢業了他們現在都高中畢業了 然後 對不起 兩位已經高中畢業了 一位還在高中自學當中所以他們 我算是實驗教育的一個受益者啦 因為我"},{"start":7289.167,"end":7304.338,"text":"如果沒有實驗教育的話我覺得我的人生應該會蠻無聊的那因為有實驗教育以後我其實參與了非常多有關實驗教育的事情包含也在跟在座的幾位先進們一起辦過實驗教育機構等等之類的"},{"start":7305.663,"end":7320.392,"text":"我看到了就是說然後我現在住在日本所以我也在關心日本的這個不登校的情形還有就是他們日本也非常非常注意台灣怎麼樣發展他們對於我們的發展方式也非常非常有興趣"},{"start":7321.152,"end":7333.847,"text":"那我今天主要是要來強調三件事情啦就是說在我參與時間教育這22年裡面我看到了就是有些事情還可以再做得更好第一個就是說"},{"start":7336.87,"end":7364.309,"text":"我们需要有专责的单位来负责在地方上面负责实验教育那这个部分过去一直认为说我们其实有公立学校有学籍学校有教育局等等的他们会提供资讯给这些家长可是到目前为止的话我们看到就只有109年台北市有成立一个实验教育创新发展中心然后112年台中市的教育局的创新教育科这两个就是把"},{"start":7365.593,"end":7371.178,"text":"掌管時間教育的三法在地方上面會碰到問題全部集中在那裡"},{"start":7373.478,"end":7400.972,"text":"不這樣做的情形的時候會造成一個狀況就是說因為時間教育涉及的範圍非常非常大從小學中學高中大學然後高中還有分技術型跟普通型的然後還有就學校型態分學校型態等等在這麼多的東西都在有會分散在各個不同的傳統的教育的課程裡面那每個單位負責不一樣的東西那這樣的話對於"},{"start":7402.253,"end":7425.459,"text":"一個想要辦學或者想要申請時間教育的人來講的話其實非常困擾他不曉得要找誰談什麼事情那如果一個專責的單位的話其實可以讓學生家長還有就是辦學的夥伴們很容易的就知道說我應該要去找哪裡問到對的問題然後我可以得到答案所以"},{"start":7426.691,"end":7455.691,"text":"這個是我覺得國教署已經已經有通過了一個補助推動實驗教育要點然後地方也可以申請這個經費補助那其實是沒有理由不再成立專責機構來做這些事情啦那我是呼籲就是說中央主管機關應該要來督導地方政府趕快落實把實驗教育的這個專責機構給建立起來因為畢竟現在已經有上萬名學生了不再像我"},{"start":7456.691,"end":7482.439,"text":"22年前開始治學的時候就是幾百人而已這樣子用一些過渡性的方式來處理就好了然後沒有專責機構回答問題的結果會造成就是說家長會到處亂問那當然我們作為民間團體智慧促進會我們其實也很努力的在回答各位家長的疑問那可是我們還是覺得說專責機構的重要性是非常非常重要的"},{"start":7482.839,"end":7500.269,"text":"第二個就是我們要提醒就是說專業的審議剛剛鄭同學老師也有提到就是說審議委員需要受訓那我覺得在自學方面的話就是個人的非需要形態時間教育更重要的是應該要回到執行力而不是比文筆因為目前的"},{"start":7502.41,"end":7522.439,"text":"時間教育條例裡面寫的對於個人自學要求的提出來的計畫書的內容框架等等跟一個要辦20人的團體跟250人的機構甚至於上更大的學校型態的時間教育它其實要的東西都框架非常非常像可是我們知道說"},{"start":7524.013,"end":7538.862,"text":"真正能夠讓個人自學成功的其實是在於家長的執行力跟學生的恆毅力而不是比看誰的作文比賽所以我們希望說能夠這次修法的時候可以好好的來檢視一下說到底"},{"start":7539.742,"end":7568.561,"text":"個人自學也就是說個人的非學校型態實驗教育這一塊他的需要提供的文件因為目前這個框架是寫在法裡面的所以說地方政府也沒有辦法做太多的調整所以說我們要好好的來想一下把個人自學這一塊重新回歸到實際上到底是什麼樣的東西是我們在乎的我們要讓孩子家長能夠適性發展然後能夠而不是說在看他們的文筆"},{"start":7569.622,"end":7590.857,"text":"而且目前的這樣的框架其實對於有讀寫障礙的特殊教育學生來講的話又是學障加重他本來要申請自學就是因為他希望有自己的風格來學習結果我們要他用寫作文的方式來決定他能不能自學這是一個很奇怪的一個點"},{"start":7592.87,"end":7600.638,"text":"最後一個我想要再回到就是我們助學修經會我們其實有非常多的家長時間教育這個詞其實從"},{"start":7605.191,"end":7632.481,"text":"從88年開始就有了在國民教育法裡面所以說我們這這麼多人現在已經有上萬個時間教育家長畢業生等等的那我們都非常願意分享我們的經驗然後來跟所需要的家長們跟教育夥伴們來一起討論一起來分享可是因為目前的條例它的規定裡面就是說雖然說有五分之二的一定是要有時間教育相關經驗背景的人來擔任可是"},{"start":7633.061,"end":7653.955,"text":"每兩年就要輪替三分之一的審議委員造成審議委員就很容易的被有經驗的審議委員沒有辦法留下來那這個東西的話我們希望說在這次修法的時候能夠再來好好地來檢視一下有沒有這樣的必要性這麼大的一個輪替然後或者是說在除了審議委員以外"},{"start":7656.317,"end":7674.492,"text":"地方政府應該要善用譬如說政大實驗教育中心的一個實驗教育專家名單然後讓這些人能夠繼續發揮他們的經驗跟長才然後能夠繼續參與實驗教育 協助家長 協助辦學者一起來把實驗教育做得更好那我覺得"},{"start":7676.007,"end":7687.667,"text":"我還是要非常謝謝今天委員們幫我們辦這場公聽會這也不是我第一次來啦然後可是我還是覺得非常激動那我非常高興有這個機會跟大家分享我的經驗謝謝"},{"start":7690.28,"end":7716.589,"text":"謝謝陳怡光理事也是家長感謝您的激動給我們力量好那我在這邊先宣布就是等一下是葉明正委員葉明正執行長然後接下來是陳培余委員那等陳培余委員發言完畢之後我們休息五分鐘拍個大合照也給大家方便一下那因為剛好兩位委員都在"},{"start":7718.51,"end":7742.417,"text":"我想就趁這個時候等一下休息五分鐘我們拍大合照好 接下來請葉明正執行長發言請主席 次長還有各位在座的其他的陳委員跟張委員還有各位學者專家還有各位來賓大家好我是全國教師會專業發展中心執行長葉明正"},{"start":7745.798,"end":7761.191,"text":"很高興今天能夠來參加實驗教育修法的公聽會簡單介紹一下,我自己在地方有參與過三種類型實驗教育的審議跟評鑑的工作本身也在國教署的兩個實驗教育審議跟規範審查的委員會裡面擔任委員"},{"start":7767.276,"end":7779.373,"text":"那所以今天很高興有六個討論的議題那我會從這個角度六個裡面我選擇其中的四個議題我個人非常關心的來做一些意見上的交流"},{"start":7780.575,"end":7804.454,"text":"那首先我選擇的第一個議題是今天大會有第一次談到說評鑑跟審議制度要合理跟專業化那我有簡單幾個問題其實在部裡面的資料有其實現在的法規已經有可以有三類的跟實驗教育相關的人員可以參與而且比例也非常非常的已經有定到40%了"},{"start":7806.155,"end":7826.659,"text":"所以我覺得這個已經是如果還要再修法很顯然就是要再打破這個框架那第二個呢在評鑑的部分呢那個昆彬剛剛離開我記得我們當年跟昆彬有很努力的去突破了評鑑辦法不論在第二條或第三條都已經強調評鑑是一個協調溝通的精神去做引導的"},{"start":7831.5,"end":7852.554,"text":"所以它相對於一般學校所建的評鑑是相對非常非常友善我記得上個禮拜在國教署一場實驗教育評鑑的會議上有特別有學者專家還特別提到說原來現在學校評鑑可以這樣子做所以我個人認為目前的法律的規範制度的設計在這個兩個區塊"},{"start":7855.762,"end":7878.309,"text":"我覺得應該是蠻充足的那如果我們未來的修法方向要更去框定那個委員的來源或者是再把那個特定委員的門檻再提高的話我覺得可能能不能保障這個專業的品質是我們要去思考的那底下我舉一個我自己在實驗教育現場"},{"start":7880.951,"end":7902.652,"text":"審議的時候的實錄我曾經在一場實驗教育的審議的時候計畫主持人說實驗教育也有兩種一種是開創一種是套用他當場就宣稱他要套用國教署跟政府部門制定好的課綱就可以了他覺得他不需要去想教育哲學背景"},{"start":7903.561,"end":7918.769,"text":"他不需要有教育哲學的思考他只要好好去做實作的方面請問如果我們我們面臨到是這樣子的實驗教育計畫的主持人我想應該不管是任何背景的人都不應該讓他通過這個案子吧"},{"start":7920.661,"end":7938.479,"text":"應該大家都會同意的另外一個在一個實驗教育評鑑的會場一所實驗教育的學校他宣稱他是自編教材可是我們入校觀察的時候看到的他卻是影印公立學校的數學教科書來做"},{"start":7942.665,"end":7968.582,"text":"所以如果你要套用的你要套用原來的一般學校常見的套裝課程你就不需要去做這樣的宣稱啊接下來我們進一步去檢視他的一些課程資料的時候呢他會說我們的課程資料整理是非常要耗費很多心力所以我們就只有這樣子可是這個學校我們已經發現他長期以來在課程資料上他有非常多沒有辦法交代清楚的部分事實上"},{"start":7969.443,"end":7981.882,"text":"主管機關或者是評鑑單位已經給他非常多次的機會可是事實上我們發現好像都沒有辦法push他變成他真正去變革革新的動力"},{"start":7982.819,"end":8004.253,"text":"所以在這樣的情況下如果我們不只是去強調有實驗教育實驗的人進來審議但是他並不一定代表他是一定夠專業的所以對於主席所安排的第一個問題我們這裡的主張是其實應該要優先推動審議跟評鑑的透明化跟責任化"},{"start":8005.54,"end":8019.157,"text":"各個主管機關應該把目前的教育實驗教育的審議跟評鑑的結果公開接受公眾的檢視跟專業的問責建立起我們各個主管機關實驗教育的判準"},{"start":8020.407,"end":8048.524,"text":"大家剛剛講到那麼多的困難其實因為那個東西是模糊的雖然我們已經立法了11年所以我們的未來的修法是不是可以優先做這件事情那我們這邊也非常主張我覺得不是委員的來源不是委員的比例而是委員的專業度所以在專業審查這部分應該加以提高好然後第三題有特別提到的是特殊教育的問題不過我又很仔細的看了委員的提綱"},{"start":8049.929,"end":8075.689,"text":"主持是公辦民營學校他並不是指雖然大家前面幾個先進都在強調是非學的這個部分其實在非學的部分法規面已經有非常多有交集了我非常納悶為什麼主席會特別提綱裡面的主持放的是公辦民營學校的特教資源輔導資源不足那我剛好但是我本身剛好非常有經驗我處理過這樣的問題"},{"start":8078.47,"end":8105.344,"text":"事實上在教育部的特殊教育統計年報已經可以看到國家已經盡力的在為非學跟學校型態的學生引入輔導資源可是這個統計資料裡面剛剛好就是沒有標示公辦民營實驗教育學校有多少人他接受的特效服務那有多少的占別所以或許這個是主席安排的一個很重要的一個部分好 可是我要跟大家報告"},{"start":8106.364,"end":8115.655,"text":"我有經驗的去看過幾個公辦民營學校他反而是我個人觀察反而是主事者的態度才是關鍵因為他認為一旦接受了"},{"start":8119.673,"end":8147.355,"text":"特教服務、輔導服務是跟他的實驗理念是衝突的所以這個時候可能有一部分的現象跟大家所說的他沒有被照顧到他是一個相反的部分因為如果我要相信這個理念我要去接受這個理念的時候我反而有可能自己先築的一道牆把輔導跟特教的資源排除在外這個是我個人在現場很真實的一個觀察"},{"start":8148.223,"end":8166.191,"text":"接下來第二個接受輔導跟特教的那個的那個服務其實需要耗費非常多的行政資源這些辦學者有沒有這樣的行政能力也是一個很重要的關鍵好接下來主席我可不可以多講兩分鐘"},{"start":8168.066,"end":8181.628,"text":"好接下來如果真的要修法的時候我覺得今天因為我們總共有五份的法律文書其實我覺得個人我在現場我覺得最需要修的是有一份是大家沒有提到的是委託私人辦理條例"},{"start":8183.41,"end":8211.369,"text":"委託私人辦理條例的第五條有排除法規的適用裡面列出的是國民教育法的各個項條次可是國民教育法已經在112年修法了所以目前各縣市的委託私人辦理條例要在做排除法規適用提出地貸方案的時候就會發生了落差然後在我們現場造成非常大的困擾所以這一次應該會是下一波修法的重點但是衍生而來的就是下一波修法可能又要繼續討論這個排除適用法規"},{"start":8213.81,"end":8241.352,"text":"的範圍跟大小但是站在一個角度來思考我們辦學彈性的法規鬆綁是不是永遠沒有終點潘部長說過實驗教育是我們教育部門的RB如果這麼多年來11年12年辦學規範的那個突破的空間是OK的理論上它最重要一件事情它應該回歸給所有的公立學校共享"},{"start":8242.335,"end":8269.01,"text":"但是12年來我們從來沒有看到教育部做這件事我們不斷的去宣揚實驗教育學校它的學習是可以自主的它非常具有彈性時間安排的空間可是一個公立學校單單要調整一個校慶活動的休假日一天是要軍過非常多的公文所以我們非常想要提醒各位委員當我們要鬆綁法規的時候也要思考它的終點有沒有到"},{"start":8269.79,"end":8295.945,"text":"而且在思考重點之前要先想想看我們是不是先能夠反饋給所有我們的體制教育這個是一個蠻深刻的一個問題好那最後呢最後今天的問題五跟問題六我們希望要非常謹慎因為未來原住民學校的面向會非常非常的多然後呢各個界面界階一定會有衝突甚至形成了多頭馬車"},{"start":8297.694,"end":8307.652,"text":"因為在三個委員的提案裡面最後還有一個是要成立中央層級的原住民族課程審議委員會然後在那個框架之下又要再進行"},{"start":8308.652,"end":8332.475,"text":"原住民族實驗教育這個時候我們跟國定課綱已經新成立了原名的課綱然後又要在這個底下要進行這個好像彼此之間的體系沒有非常的清楚跟界定清楚那我們會提醒在這邊要這個剛剛在主席稍微有提到我們希望能夠在立法過之前能夠在盤點梳理一下好 以上意見 謝謝"},{"start":8333.396,"end":8357.444,"text":"好 非常感谢叶明正执行长带来很多宝贵的意见主席在这边请教一下陈培宇委员我们因为有一些委员要先行离席所以我们是不是把握时间先大合照然后您在上海发言好 谢谢陈培宇委员那我们先暂停休息五分钟那这段时间我们可以来拍照吗好 谢谢"},{"start":8371.938,"end":8374.803,"text":"吃啥吃啥 吃啥 吃啥"},{"start":8385.053,"end":8395.676,"text":"這個也配到第二排也配到第二排也配到第二排也配到第二排"},{"start":8419.401,"end":8431.765,"text":"實驗三法修法公定會在教育部在人民會在學者專家定位同仁一起加油"},{"start":8435.989,"end":8436.009,"text":"好,謝謝"},{"start":8459.175,"end":8467.118,"text":"兩次診斷,那不用我告訴你了,就讓你自己去做診斷診斷的時候,所有診斷都可以再去做好教育對,這個診斷可以讓更多人去做診斷,我們可以不再多在診斷的時候"},{"start":8477.898,"end":8480.121,"text":"這個以前是國教輔導嗎?對啊,以前他說他修法,不是修法"},{"start":8497.86,"end":8507.264,"text":"那是地址?地址是九岁。那是什么大堂?那是民俗教堂。民俗教堂。那是什么?民俗教堂。民俗教堂。"},{"start":8513.387,"end":8522.712,"text":"我自己覺得跟你很熟,因為我讀你很多文章但老師你們應該沒有見過面吧我常常看到你的關於你的努力的消息謝謝老師,謝謝那你剛講的啊,我們幾乎都...然後2017年,2017年打贏的時候我沒有宣傳所以老師我是不是可以,我待會去當時沒有來"},{"start":8540.742,"end":8547.224,"text":"有些是地方政府來的地方政府來的地方政府來的地方政府來的地方政府來的"},{"start":8563.15,"end":8577.362,"text":"坦白講就不麻煩了那對教育部來講地方就不用公價不麻煩我們待住的那幾十年來還有那個店子是玩水的坦白講對經營而言所以我現在有跟他們講其實我們住的我們要按照他們的合計合同"},{"start":8583.467,"end":8587.991,"text":"講對現在的困境,可是事實這麼嚴重你高中的實驗交易都有補貨都有兩點學費,都一樣都有補貨高中的誤判是三千塊"},{"start":8602.439,"end":8614.584,"text":"我的用戶可以,但是我也跟他們講現在沒有做事情的時候可以開始用創新教育機構就給那個真正的評定學校計畫的人譬如說我們可以分教漢組跟課程的組分組的組提出來我跟你們講我覺得不錯我覺得你們兩個合作就挺不錯明天我就給兩千塊給你來申請可以喔,對課程還好喔"},{"start":8626.889,"end":8651.434,"text":"就是那個我聽到的就是交流那個就是說他創評價出來他沒有跟主持人交流這個是我今天聽到的意思沒有這個早就有四個問題因為照理講我們實現要有一個程度然後分享那個分享的動作都有出來九十二年開始實施有啦我們每年論壇都會有所謂的分享是說公立的會來借用這些好的"},{"start":8654.895,"end":8675.269,"text":"一個實驗程序例如可能是制度 可能是課程教材因為水平全在地方 地方很多放水你這個實驗教育我們一看就是要不適合因為我們不能去跟地方你說要複合 我們要幹涉到地方自主公立學校如果沒有 譬如說要有一個有感染效率對 它都可以拿去"},{"start":8677.751,"end":8677.871,"text":"好 我們繼續開會"},{"start":8707.67,"end":8713.425,"text":"接下来我们邀请陈培宇立法委员上台发言请"},{"start":8719.383,"end":8741.105,"text":"好各位來賓早安也非常先謝謝主席喔特別排今天這場立法院的公辦公聽會我們所有人的發言都會留下公報記錄這件事情非常重要在修法12年之後同時我要再一次公開感謝張亮萬劍次長今天親自出席我認為次長一定非常關心相關的議題喔尤其是次長來自於基層的選區所以我想今天幾個議題呢剛"},{"start":8743.447,"end":8755.797,"text":"剛剛幾位專家學者的發言我們也都聽到跟我們辦公室有蠻多的交集所以等一下我的發言可能跟各位有一些重疊但我想還是主要是因為來自於我們在第一線所收集到的聲音好 第一個"},{"start":8757.403,"end":8780.766,"text":"自從修法到現在確實實驗教育三法它滿足了很多學生還有家長對於所謂多元教育或者是教育選擇權的期待跟想像所以確實這十幾年來從所謂體制內到所謂大家認為的體制外的實驗教育人數倍增所以剛剛非常多專家學者也都說了人數的增加確實反映了許多的可能性"},{"start":8781.226,"end":8799.899,"text":"但也反映了很多第一線的問題必須要透過修法還有地方跟中央教育局處的合作讓學生跟家長可以受到更好的照顧所以第一個我們要談的是光是審議制度我們現在所看見的問題剛很多老師都有說現在的實驗教育三法對於審議委員會的規定"},{"start":8802.04,"end":8820.615,"text":"明明明文寫著規定要聘請熟悉實驗教育的相關人員擔任委員可是在第一線的操作實務上可能是因為地方局處對於實驗教育的不熟悉或者是對於實驗教育的偏見跟刻板印象常常所請來的人仍然停留在"},{"start":8821.776,"end":8839.706,"text":"對於傳統教育學校的想像的眼光來看實驗教育的審查所以導致於很多的審議過程當中其實對於實驗教育相對沒有那麼友善再來我要說程序搞得非常冗長很多偏鄉小校在現在少子化的過程當中"},{"start":8840.146,"end":8867.619,"text":"如果他想要透過實驗教育三法轉型成實驗教育光是前期的評估公聽會還有各種層級的審議過程耗時冗長可能長達一到兩年對於偏鄉小校的轉型需求沒有辦法立即符合其實非常可惜還有就是實驗教育的審議制度如何更貼近現場的需求同時又兼顧學生的權益這件事情我認為拿捏非常重要同時如何讓熟悉實驗教育的人員"},{"start":8868.82,"end":8889.717,"text":"在审议制度当中可以去落实很多的理想甚至我们认为增加很多实务代表的比例或者是适度的简化实验教育的申请流程我认为都是后续修法还有很多行政配套上我们会非常头痛的地方第二个我要讲办学场地的取得其实刚刚很多老师也有讲到目前在相关法规里面其实都有明文的写到"},{"start":8890.498,"end":8916.748,"text":"非常多地方教育局處必須要釋出公共的空間尤其是學校裡面的用地閒置的校地宿舍或者是公立學校的閒置空間公辦實驗教育的辦學者申請或者是租借可是理想的現實完全不是這樣很多實驗教育的辦學者在第一線在申請場地要租借也好就是申請也好常常被用不同的理由拒絕"},{"start":8917.208,"end":8943.596,"text":"可是相關的程序跟平台沒有公開透明好像就只能靠一些說不出來的理由說不出來可能性才可以陳租那我們辦公室有接到非常多的陳情我認為地方教育局處在相關法規的情況底下如何真的釋出誠意釋出場地這件事情也是需要教育部予以協助的可是在法規面我們到底還可以怎麼做或在實務面我都認為需要討論第三個其實剛剛很多人也有提到"},{"start":8944.456,"end":8961.283,"text":"我們之前在教文委員會大修了國教法也大修了學輔法還有性平三法都是這過去三年當中立法院跟整個行政院所發生的事情而這三法不論是性平三法輔導法跟國教法還有特教法的大修都跟實驗教育的學生有關"},{"start":8961.943,"end":8976.374,"text":"但是我們在修相關法的時候大部分人是遺漏掉實驗教育的學生不論他是個人自學 機構自學 團體自學或是學校裡面的實驗教育因此我要說他可能是資源的問題可能是觀點的問題可能是政策視野的問題所以我要講"},{"start":8976.994,"end":9003.887,"text":"在特教端 其實很多特教學生他現在的狀況不見得是我們過去所認識的特教因為現在特教的樣態非常多元而當這些有特教需求的學生進到實驗教育裡頭實驗教育的機構跟老師可不可以承接可不可以承擔或者是如同剛剛有一位老師所說的這些學生是掛在某個公立學校裡頭而公立學校有沒有把這些特教孩子的需求放在他們心中認為是要主動協助還是認為我只是讓他掛學籍就好"},{"start":9004.287,"end":9031.847,"text":"还有就是在学生辅导法里面我们强调三级辅导机制是这一次学辅法大学的重点但是对于很多实验教育的老师来说他原本对于三级辅导法的三级辅导机制有没有概念或是当他学生遇到身心健康议题的时候他如何寻求协助除了是机构内的协助之外他在地方学辅资中心有没有角色有没有资源可以转介给这些学生这也是我认为很多实验教育机构老师在面对的困境"},{"start":9032.527,"end":9048.259,"text":"還有就是專輔人員這件事情有沒有機會落到實驗教育裡頭當然在理想上我們希望每一個孩子在身心健康議題的第一天出現狀況的時候都有大人可以接觸他但是實驗教育的現場我們明明看見很多孩子是有需求的"},{"start":9048.959,"end":9071.409,"text":"但是卻可能沒有辦法被接住所以相關的資源如何轉介過去也非常的重要再講的是性平三法修法的時候我們看到學校現場有很多性平的議題那這些議題在實驗教育機構裡面我認為也可能是日常但可能資源還沒有到位所以不管是通報也好輔導機制也好都沒有辦法到位情況下我們如何協助實驗教育的學生"},{"start":9071.949,"end":9087.729,"text":"他在特教輔導性品議題上真的法規範也可以協助到他們好 講了這麼多我要說我認為實驗教育的狀況跟這十幾年來的發展已經跟我們當年相差甚遠我想要站出來幫實驗教育的孩子說一段話"},{"start":9088.65,"end":9113.498,"text":"過去他們被認為是體制外的學生他們是不適應主流的學生他們是在學校適應不良的學生這是十幾年前當現場還有很多專家學者你們當年立促修法立促立專法的時候你們所看到學生的樣態但這十幾年來它其實是家長教育選擇權一個非常重要的出口它也是學生對於自主探索自己定位自己的學習教育發展當中一個很重要的選項"},{"start":9114.298,"end":9134.337,"text":"這些孩子不應該再是體制外的孩子他就是我們的孩子我要再次強調要拜託教育部他就是我們的孩子他在現行的法規底下他不應該再被視為體制外他不應該視為是額外要給予的東西所以我們剛剛提到的除了實驗教育三法要大修剛剛還有提到原住民教育的部分"},{"start":9134.717,"end":9161.623,"text":"甚至我們看到有偏鄉跟城市的落差我們有看到有資源的孩子跟沒有資源孩子的落差這些我認為是實驗教育三法走了十幾年之後我們必須要公開討論的事情我們希望每一個台灣的孩子在做教育選擇權跟多元教育發展的時候尊重他的主體性讓他的選擇成為一個可以被政府看在眼裡的選擇實驗教育的孩子不是體制外的孩子要拜託未來大家一起努力謝謝"},{"start":9163.388,"end":9180.085,"text":"好 謝謝陳培宇委員也跟大家說明這一次我們辦實驗三法修法公聽會最主要也是陳培宇委員力促他非常關心 謝謝接下來我們邀請張雅玲委員做發言 謝謝"},{"start":9187.18,"end":9206.609,"text":"好 謝謝主席那我想今天非常高興可以來這邊跟大家來討論有關於時間教育的部分因為我自己有兩個小孩其實在小學階段在五年級之前都是自學生那為什麼在五年級之後有人走上了他們都回到了體制呢那最主要是真的是小孩的選擇上面我的老大呢他自己是覺得他自己還"},{"start":9208.329,"end":9229.034,"text":"應該說在五年前的時候我們都會讓他們回到體制試試看接下來他們的選擇是在哪裡那現在都選擇了回到了一般的體制上面所以我想我在過去呢在兩個小孩都在自學的階段其實是將近非常長的一段時間所以今天也是可以看到許多在實驗教育在現場第一個現場的一些問題"},{"start":9230.794,"end":9258.662,"text":"所以像特别就是有关于特教资源相当的不足所以在过去我在教委委员会其实也积极的争取了我们在实验教育的一个特教资源的部分那也非常感谢教育部的支持让这个新的资源呢一些申请的都在去年年底上路了那今天我想要再跟大家来讨论一些更明确的事情就是特别就是说我们现在从过去只有两千多人那在十年这十年蓬勃的发展已经将近三万人"},{"start":9259.402,"end":9277.802,"text":"那這非常代表的很明確的一件事就是說家長對於教育的選擇上面是走向了更多元化的一個選擇大家是有更多的期待所以這條路其實是對的但是呢我想現在也必須要審慎的來去面對下一個階段因為我們有許多的配套沒有跟上首先第一個就是說我們在審議與評鑑的制度過於僵化"},{"start":9280.024,"end":9298.553,"text":"实验教育的核心其实是多元跟弹性可是我们在许多的团体跟学校的反应是说可能相关的一些审查过程还是用一个传统教育的观点和标准来看待以我自己个人的经历我就曾经经过就是我们在审查的时候有委员跟我说你的课表没有完全排满"},{"start":9300.57,"end":9320.571,"text":"這是非常明確的他要求我每一個時間都要排滿這樣子所以我自己也非常了解就是說因為其實是一個非常應該彈性更多元的非標準化的教育可是還是用一個非常標準化的制度在檢視我的自學申請這樣子那這樣子的設計的本質上面就是有非常大的一個衝突那"},{"start":9321.312,"end":9339.26,"text":"第二個問題我想來就是今天許多團體都有提到的場地的問題這是最現實的一個瓶頸就是說法規上面看起來是開放的有可以使用公有空間跟閒置校舍可是實務上卻是常常遇到借不到住不到流程卡關的問題就以我最近一直收到同心華德福的一個"},{"start":9341.141,"end":9364.974,"text":"的一个陈情啦就过去他们从万华走到了文山区可是呢又因为台北市政府的一个规划开发他们又需要做千里那这会造成什么问题是学生就学的稳定性受到一个影响那也就是说政府虽然鼓励了多元教育可是却缺乏了长期稳定的一个校地配置机制形成了一个很大的制度落差"},{"start":9366.004,"end":9392.411,"text":"而且同心华的福也不是唯一的个案像今天来的卢族的这个外社国小也有同样的一个问题那再来就是说我们针对于我们的资源配置的方式呢也还是用一个学生的人头数来去计算可是因为实验教育本身就是小班制个别化教学或者是有较高的辅导或是特教需求所以就变成是说如果是用传统的逻辑来去分配资源的话"},{"start":9392.711,"end":9417.463,"text":"那就是越有特色的教育反而越難能夠生存那第四個就是整體的制度上面我們還有整合不足的一個問題就是說我們現在跟國民教育法的關係其實並不清楚補助制度也不一致教師的權益也沒有明確的定位升學的銜接存在不確定性所以就是說我們的制度雖然存在但是不是一個非常完整穩定的系統"},{"start":9418.263,"end":9432.982,"text":"所以我想总结来说这个其实对于学生还有家长来说甚至我们的伴学者来说都是产生了非常不必要的风险就例如说光找学校校地这件事情就变成是每隔几年就要奔波一次就要烦恼一次"},{"start":9434.574,"end":9458.875,"text":"所以我想我们接下来的政策应该要往三个方式来调整就是说我们的神异与贫贱的机制应该要回到多元教育的本质那第二个呢政府应该要真正的解决场地跟资源的问题那第三个呢就是我们要补强整体的制度的设计让实验教育成为一个稳定的教育体制因为我想每个人其实都不一定能够走同一条路那实验教育就提供了不同的选择"},{"start":9459.235,"end":9475.485,"text":"那最後我想要提一個也是大家可以一起來討論的就是說剛剛陳培源委員也有提到說有一些學校他們可能是提供了這個護學籍給我們的實驗教育的學生但是當這個學生這個實驗教育的學生發生了不管是學校的霸凌"},{"start":9476.165,"end":9491.842,"text":"或是性侵性骚扰的事件的时候到底是谁来承接这个案件因为公立学校的校长也告诉我说照理来讲应该是他们因为资源是配置到这个学校可是这个学校的辅导体系跟这家老师跟这个孩子其实并没有建立相关的"},{"start":9493.223,"end":9508.249,"text":"連結跟情感其實他也很難去介入來處理所以我想這也是一個我們也必須要來接下來也必須要審上來討論的一個很細緻的問題如何來處理像這樣子的一個孩子的一個權益那這個就是我今天以上的發言謝謝"},{"start":9509.517,"end":9538.671,"text":"好 谢谢张亚林委员也特别说明因为今天来发言的委员大多是本委员教育文化委员但是张亚林委员他非常关心教育所以他现在虽然在司法法治他还是特地来发言给他一个掌声谢谢好好 接下来我们邀请的是非学的"},{"start":9539.591,"end":9566.649,"text":"学生代表我们特别高兴今天我们有学生代表来欢迎王以凡各位关心学生教育的伙伴们大家好然后我是以凡我自己是2024年才刚从就是非学校形态学生教育毕业那我现在在走的是参与教育部的那个青年体验学习计划那今天就会主要以我自己在家自学的"},{"start":9567.069,"end":9587.046,"text":"经验去针对提纲里面的内容有一些讨论跟分享那首先特别有感的地方是谈到那个辅导资源的部分那因为现行的实验教育其实因应多人的差异会有很多不同的细节划分就刚刚大家其实也有提到可能有翻水超形态啊飞水超形态等等的"},{"start":9587.526,"end":9602.357,"text":"那這邊想要先提到的是關於我自己是分學校型態實驗教育的學生所以我們會遇到的情況會是基本上我們沒有跟學校合作的話我們就已經脫離了學校的這個框架體系所以我們就沒有輔導室的存在"},{"start":9602.657,"end":9618.043,"text":"但各縣市又不一定有那樣子的輔導資源可以去接觸我們的需要所以很多時候在離開學校這個環境以後會發現有一些我們需要的輔導資源或是在知情跟取得上面就會變得比較困難"},{"start":9618.703,"end":9640.275,"text":"那多數時候其實也會非常需要仰賴縣市政府可能有公開的相關資源或者是需求者自己去想辦法找到相關的資源舉個說個小故事是我自己在兩年的時候剛好是我高三那一年然後我覺得我再面臨到一個是學生生涯的選擇就是我到底是要直接升大學呢還是我要走其他不一樣的選擇"},{"start":9641.556,"end":9665.259,"text":"那我記得很深刻的是當時候我覺得自己其實是需要有一個大人他除了是我信任的家人或者是師長之外然後是可以就是會期待有一個大人是可以懂青少年然後可能有相關的專業的背景然後專業的技巧可以用更有經驗的方式去跟我做討論跟陪伴我一起去面對一些所謂的青少年的煩惱"},{"start":9666.3,"end":9674.368,"text":"但是那時候我自己聯絡了那個學校就是縣市政府的主管機關因為非學主要是歸個縣市的主管機關去做"},{"start":9676.138,"end":9697.464,"text":"負責這樣然後很顯然的是可能當時候的承辦人員也不是那麼清楚也很少有非學的學生主動去提出這樣的需求所以當時候我被轉接到的是他們說學資中心的量能負荷上可能也沒有辦法應急所以只能提供給我是社區現有的跟大人一樣的心理輔導資源"},{"start":9698.544,"end":9724.449,"text":"那只是可惜的事情是我覺得適合大人的資源不一定完全適合孩子跟適合青少年所以這個部分呢我和其他自學生交流之後就是發現到現在這個情況其實還是有存在就是其實大家到了一定的階段都會有一些想要討論或者是想要做的選擇然後可能需要找一個大人去一起做討論除了是你自己計畫的主持人或者是陪伴你的師長之外"},{"start":9725.569,"end":9742.336,"text":"那其實提供給實驗教育的學生的輔導資源就沒有到那麼的平均跟各縣市的配套措施真的有蠻大的不同然後修法上面也都有差異所以會蠻期待就是看到接下來在修法過程中也許可以針對輔導機制這一塊"},{"start":9744.437,"end":9773.139,"text":"看看是要有什么样的讨论可以有一个更明确的资源的提供或者是也许可以有人力上面的编制那也会期待就也许可以邀集现在就是还在实验教育里面的孩子一起来讨论看看他们有遇到什么样的问题跟情况然后这样实验教育的孩子不管在什么样的形态都可以在需要辅导的资源的时候有找到适合的管道跟被好好接触然后再来的话是关于特教资源的部分"},{"start":9773.499,"end":9789.887,"text":"因为实验教育人数其实越来越多然后我身边因为自学升级彼此都会互相有一些一起讨论啊学习的机会那身边刚好有不少的伙伴也是就是因为特殊教育的需求可能自愿的走向自学或是由家长选择申请实验教育"},{"start":9790.327,"end":9804.506,"text":"那我相信這樣的趨勢其實不僅僅是就是對於正在努力學習的孩子或者是要陪伴他們學習的老師或者是家長這樣的教育合夥人的這個角色都會需要更多的資源跟裝備去準備跟適應"},{"start":9807.13,"end":9832.428,"text":"那所以其實在部分的實驗教育學生他們在離開學校這個網絡之後會面對到一個情況會是我身邊有些朋友他們會遇到的是特殊教育的這個相關的評鑑跟輔導介入的機會就會有一點沒有在點上或者是他們其實是因為自己去看醫生或是什麼樣的情況才發現自己可能是真的有一些特殊的需求這樣"},{"start":9833.359,"end":9852.174,"text":"那所以会期待就是接下来在修法面上可能可以有一个更明确的因应的措施吗然后就是适当的可以公开给家长或是申请人可以让他们知道说其实有一些相关的特殊教育现有的资源或是有一些什么样的方式是可以帮助孩子跟家长的"},{"start":9852.708,"end":9871.37,"text":"那另外因為我自己也有接觸到就是學校型態實驗教育學生他們有在分享一些關於實驗學校的日常然後輔導老師呢其實會因為法規上面的編制上的限制所以學校端在人力安排上就會變成說他特教老師同時也是專輔老師然後他日常需要負責很多很多的個案"},{"start":9871.71,"end":9893.404,"text":"然後他負責寫IEP啊寫生涯的輔導等等的所以在這些量能有限的情況下會影響到實驗教育學校裡面學生的特教資源的落實跟所謂的正常的輔導機制的運作所以這部分涉及的層面其實比較廣所以也許可以針對特殊教育的需求跟處境然後跟細緻的思考跟討論然後"},{"start":9895.475,"end":9914.716,"text":"再來最後一個部分是關於資源整合的部分就是在我自己的學習過程中其實我們經常會遇到很多時候活動的公佈或者是一些重要的升學的資訊包含學習歷程自學生有學習歷程的平台然後他們的時程規劃等等其實大多都是以公文系統去做統治"},{"start":9915.837,"end":9940.302,"text":"所以對於非學校型態時間教育的學生沒有跟學校合作的話其實很多時候我們要自己去掌握這些資源跟想辦法去把分散在各處的資源就是自己收集起來那也因此其實過程中會聽到蠻多學生可能錯失一些相關的機會或是可能所以在思考的地方是我們知道現在其實有時間教育推動中心在做全國性的推動那各地像"},{"start":9941.022,"end":9965.555,"text":"以我自己的現實台中為例其實我們也有實驗教育的推廣中心跟平台不知道有沒有一個可能是可以有一個什麼樣的規範或是什麼樣的方式去促進就是各地方其實可以有一個資源整合的平台讓這些資源不會是四散在各地因為有一些很重要的升學資源我們沒有學校網絡真的收不太到"},{"start":9966.575,"end":9984.992,"text":"所以会期待说在资源整合这一方面可以有一些多方的厘清然后再落实可以让更多的社会大众跟家长包含学生最重要的是学生可以怎么样去拉近实验教育跟公民的距离也可以让学生更了解这一切谢谢"},{"start":9986.233,"end":10005.715,"text":"非常感谢见到王以凡同学在立法院的发言台上可以侃侃而谈说出他的看见跟他的建言非常感动谢谢那接下来我们要邀请的是失陪的单位北教大的陈建志教授请"},{"start":10008.851,"end":10036.217,"text":"好謝謝我們的這個吳立華教育委員還有我們的這個各個立法委員還有我們教育部的蔣官同仁以及各位學者專家大家早安我是北交大教經系陳建志今天非常榮幸能夠有這個機會來跟各位報告一下就是有關於實驗教育三法的修法的相關公聽會的內容那也因為跟委員從以前在屏東國教輔導團的時候就認識我們也在屏東縣的公辦公營公辦民營的學校擔任過"},{"start":10038.699,"end":10042.215,"text":"國小的老師跟主任所以對這個議題也有一些相關的研究"},{"start":10043.459,"end":10071.61,"text":"因此今天能夠有這個機會來跟各位報告非常開心首先第一個還是要非常感謝也感動就是各位願意投入在實驗教育學校特別是在實驗教育學校現在我們常常就是在做一些實驗教育學校研究就會發覺如果說公辦公益或公辦民營的實驗教育學校不只老師的流動率高其中校長的流動率更是高因此我們想應該要給我們陳惠美校長一個掌聲因為我們來自我們"},{"start":10073.691,"end":10088.248,"text":"陳維美校長說在地盟服務了這麼多年現在又在北野國小繼續擔任實驗教育學校的校長我想這是什麼樣的熱情可以驅動她一直在實驗教育學校服務因為老師的流動力我想應該是非常不能講非常非常"},{"start":10088.768,"end":10108.823,"text":"有一點點需要大家一起來去思考的這部分我想我今天的報告就是剛剛大家談的非常多包含像是失陪場地原住民的學生等等但是我都非常認同那今天主要可能跟大家報告就是關於裡面時間教育三法裡面關於老師的這個留任以及老師的福利以及專業的經濟的這個區塊"},{"start":10110.865,"end":10135.702,"text":"我想是我最近幾年走訪實驗教育學校蠻多老師說說如果有機會是不是可以在一些場合幫他們來做一個發聲跟反應那實驗教育相關的背景等等相關的敘述說明我想就如同剛剛看大家報告的學生數成長班級數成長學校數成長那我相關的研究也有在進行一些相關關於實驗教育學校關於我們實驗教育學校裡面校長"},{"start":10136.442,"end":10151.593,"text":"他是怎麼樣在領導這個學校團隊運作職能相當的重要有好的團隊校長才能夠去施展他的全教因此怎麼樣讓實驗教育學校不管是在比如說機構型的或者是公辦公營公辦民營的學校"},{"start":10152.293,"end":10169.327,"text":"老師願意留在這些學校奉獻他的熱情這個是一個非常大的一個機制那現在我們的一些條例裡面好像對於老師的福利相關的保障可能有寫但是沒有寫得這麼清楚我想可能今天這個修法的一些內容"},{"start":10169.747,"end":10183.723,"text":"可以有一些的調整跟一些的反思這樣子那學校效能的多層次分析也是我去年跟李崇義現在的雲林的行政處長跟秦孟全老師一起研究對於30所公辦公益實驗教育學校的一些"},{"start":10185.084,"end":10204.563,"text":"老師來做一些調查可以發現校長的領導可以影響實驗教育學校的效能其中創新學習是實驗教育一個非常重要的一個機制因此怎麼樣讓老師可以在實驗教育學校機構裡面有更多創新學習的可能除了我們給他心靈的激勵以外"},{"start":10205.023,"end":10221.765,"text":"是不是有一些物質的條件或是我們Marcelo講的一些就是自我實現的可能性在實驗教育學校可以有更多的開展這個是後續要跟各位先進就教以及報告的地方然後一些相關的教師專業發展課程轉型等等我想"},{"start":10222.245,"end":10250.259,"text":"在我過往的研究裡面都有做一些的議題的討論那我今天主要知道包括就是議題三支援配置跟支持系統的強化我們常常都說我們要承接住實驗教育的學生我們要承接住實驗教育的家長但是我們真的有承接住實驗教育學校或是機構的老師嗎老師我們給他很多的增能但是他們幸福嗎他們快樂嗎他們會把在實驗教育服務當成他們畢生的志業嗎"},{"start":10251.7,"end":10274.264,"text":"惠美校長可以跟我們研究一下這可能要她親身說吧會更加的離析因此如果以我具體的建議而言我會覺得說可以思考一下是不是有所謂的教師專業發展基金或是所謂的教師久任福利這個機制是不是可以匡列在我們實驗教育三法裡面具體而言"},{"start":10274.704,"end":10295.251,"text":"比如說或許我們可以思考參酌偏遠地區學校教育發展條例其實雖然說有一部分的實驗教育學校它是確實屬於偏遠地區沒有錯但是也有很多在非山非市或者是都會地區的實驗教育學校比如說以屏東市為例像是富田國小KIDS的實驗教育學校或者是建國國小"},{"start":10296.371,"end":10315.538,"text":"他都是屬於市區或非山非市的他可能老師我們常常驅動他的就是熱情對於教育的承諾以及我們可以自己本身的成長但是有沒有一些其他的激勵措施在這一些學校可以推展的或許可以大家有一些共同的討論跟思考看看"},{"start":10316.567,"end":10339.544,"text":"也可以參考我們偏遠DG學校教育發展條約的精神比如說服務8年就發給一次性的獎金多少服務11年發給多少當然獎金是一種制度或許久任福利也不一定要是獎金可能就是因為會想要服務在實驗教育學校或機構他一定都是有一些熱情有一些憧憬有一些突破想要挑戰自己的"},{"start":10339.864,"end":10362.546,"text":"或許可以把獎金轉化為是一些福利機制例如可以安排老師們出國去實驗教育機構一起去學習互動參訪交流像我們的師奪獎等等相關的機構我覺得或許這樣子的一個條件或是激勵的制度可以讓我們的實驗教育的老師有更大的動力跟熱情繼續留在"},{"start":10364.848,"end":10374.638,"text":"實驗教育機構跟學校持續燃燒持續奮鬥持續奮進這樣子所以對六大議題的思考我都非常的同意跟非常的支持那其中有一個"},{"start":10376.078,"end":10403.872,"text":"校長年齡的放寬這個部分的議題我覺得這是一個非常好的議題因為好的人才繼續留在公部門繼續發揮他的專業我覺得是一個非常好的議題也值得去深思但是可能要思考蘋果一點就是說是不是只有實驗教育的校長他才是真正國家需要的人才因為全國的校長都是我們需要的人才所以如果說只有單純放寬實驗教育學校的校長的話"},{"start":10404.972,"end":10424.834,"text":"那全國的校長是不是要統一的放寬全國的老師全國的優秀的公務人員是不是要一起統一延逸來放寬退休年齡這個我覺得也是一個大家可以去思考的議題那當然原住民專法等等我們都非常的去樂見其成以上就是今天簡短的報告以上謝謝大家 謝謝"},{"start":10425.695,"end":10435.347,"text":"谢谢陈建志教授那接下来我们再邀请一位立法委员有请吴佩义委员上台发言"},{"start":10444.201,"end":10464.591,"text":"謝謝主席也謝謝陳培鈺委員來催生的今天的公聽會以及現場所有的參與者我想大家都是關心實驗教育的工作者那我今天也可以說是實驗教育畢業生的一員之一那我是在小學的時候當時我讀的是新店的北新國小"},{"start":10465.732,"end":10482.525,"text":"參加的是一個叫做410美療教育實驗班那一年是1992年所以實際上我參與實驗教育我當實驗教育的學生是比實驗三法來得更早那這個計畫呢我一直是到這個我念大學的時候"},{"start":10483.286,"end":10488.408,"text":"我才在讀資料的時候讀到410教改我忽然發現說我小學念那個班級名稱那麼長那個410這個神秘的密碼到底是什麼意思原來是410教改的410回頭去看我才知道說這是當時應當是教育部的一個計畫那是1992年由是林曼莉教授"},{"start":10505.316,"end":10508.838,"text":"然後帶領著國北師教大的這個美術的教授們跟北京國小的小學老師共同所組成的一個教育計畫那這個計畫總共為期六年那所有我們所學習的課程都是由國北師的教授跟國小的老師他們共同來討論"},{"start":10528.109,"end":10549.904,"text":"出來的所以我小學的時候是沒有念過正規的課本那我們也是同學之間也是六年沒有分班那我我透過了一個非常美好的國小的六年我的回憶起來我的時光我們待在教室裡面的時間非常的少那我們去哪裡呢老師帶我們去台灣各地"},{"start":10550.885,"end":10561.697,"text":"走訪台灣的廟宇我們蹲在地上去拓映去認識這一個地磚它的構成背後的歷史人文背景是什麼我們到海邊然後拿著一張宣紙"},{"start":10566.001,"end":10569.963,"text":"也是拓映臺灣的岩石去學習這個岩石是經過什麼樣的沖刷經過什麼樣的這個自然的形成而來然後我們跟著荒野保護協會上山認識臺灣我們本地太陽種的植物當然也有未來的物種"},{"start":10584.189,"end":10609.786,"text":"然後我印象最深刻的是我們的美療課程曾經有一堂課程是我們大家閉著眼睛然後桌上是這個陶土然後我們閉著眼睛聽著這個音樂老師引導我們從你所感受到的這個音律來去進行創作最後要打分數的時候我就非常緊張因為我自己認為我做的那個沒有很好看"},{"start":10610.646,"end":10615.269,"text":"但是最後我獲得了幾分獲得了100分因為我們全班同學都獲得了100分因為老師告訴我們說美是不能被評價的所以這帶我心裡留下了非常非常深刻的回憶以外"},{"start":10626.897,"end":10649.025,"text":"我認為也對我這個整個全人的行作造成了非常深刻的影響所以呢剛剛我們衛昆斌理事長所提到的這個我們實驗教育跟體制內的教育在銜接的時候特別是現在的孩子們可能是升大學之後會遇到與課綱之間銜接的問題這個我是相當的感同身受"},{"start":10649.605,"end":10656.03,"text":"因為我在度過了我剛所向各位描述的這個美好的國小六年的實驗教育時光然後走進了當時還是非常升學主義而且還有體罰的國中體制內的國中教育的時候我遇上了非常嚴重的失因不良因為這個我們次長在現場這個現在已經沒有體罰真是太好了我從進入國中的第一天就開始被打整整被打了三年"},{"start":10677.225,"end":10699.048,"text":"所以呢我是從天堂來到了地獄我從台灣的這個海邊最美麗的山海走進了一間每天都會被體罰的教室就是我遇上了這樣銜接的問題但事實上到後來因為你知道被打是會麻痺的到後來我的肉體似乎已經不再疼痛了但是我內心所受到最大的這個衝擊是"},{"start":10700.729,"end":10728.124,"text":"因為我在實驗教育階段我認為我學到最大的是教會我們如何思考所以這個進到國中教育之後我很長的時間都在跟我的家長討論說我需要知道人為什麼要讀書我們讀書是為了什麼常常就問很多問題但是我們過去的這種天壓式的教育不喜歡你問太多問題所以這可能是我當時遇上比較大的衍接的問題但是"},{"start":10731.026,"end":10752.848,"text":"還好就是還有家人的支持所以也是努力的繼續走下這個學習之路那所以說我要希望要特別拜託教育部教育部的司綱魏昆布尼社長所提到這個銜接的這個問題也許不是個別學生的困擾它只是整個制度性上面的問題我們要來給予支持"},{"start":10753.709,"end":10772.527,"text":"那第二個呢實驗教育三法從制定至今學生人數已經成長了10倍那最多又是在台北市所以呢他一定會去遇上這個需要行政的支持然後剛剛有提到這個場地的借用租金等等的問題然後呢我們有沒有一個專責的單位"},{"start":10774.629,"end":10787.237,"text":"然後例如說我們剛剛講到的這個新府的資源特教的資源它似乎散落在各處那我也是要感謝聯盟跟團體我過去在擔任台北市議員的期間因為當時有很多實驗教育的團體來和我們討論例如說可能同一個機構但其實它是由國小到國中"},{"start":10794.741,"end":10821.545,"text":"但是在我們教育局裡面因為國小國中一組 高中又一組所以其實同一個機構 同一個孩子但是他在學習的過程當中其實馬上就遇到承辦人會轉了好幾個甚至當中有不銜接的問題等等的所以當時也是台北市在聯盟跟團體大家共同努力的催生之下就成立了台北市實驗教育創新發展中心原則上是希望至少行政窗口要做到單一窗口"},{"start":10822.105,"end":10850.022,"text":"但是資源的整合我想還有很大的空間要繼續去努力那這一點也是我想各個縣市地方政府的狀況會不同也要拜託教育部是可以來跟各個地方政府更積極的來介入來討論我們希望實驗教育的孩子不管是在學校型態非學型態或甚至是自學生不能因為他所身上的縣市不一樣遭受到不平等的待遇這個"},{"start":10850.962,"end":10868.164,"text":"沒有違背了我們的這個教育的法規所以再拜託教育部來協助那最後因為其實今天公聽會主要還是想要聽大家在第一線遇到的這個狀況然後我們後續一起來監督我想不要再用太多時間但是最後我其實是特別想要感謝吳麗華召委"},{"start":10869.986,"end":10887.399,"text":"因為我知道今天現場有很多是我們援助民族教育的工作者那我也是在這個國小參加實驗教育的期間當時我們的老師就帶著我們到這個新店烏來的山上的烏來國小跟他們進行很長時間一個整個學期的交流"},{"start":10887.879,"end":10902.78,"text":"那個也是我認識原住民族文化的起點那在我們國小的這個美療教育實驗課程當中我們有很大的篇幅都是在學習原住民族的文化因為這是台灣美學的起源"},{"start":10904.302,"end":10921.975,"text":"所以我要非常的感謝所有的原住民族教育工作者因為你們所傳承的這些知識我覺得是整個體系建構很重要的一部分那同時也要感謝我也要呼應剛剛陳建志教授所說的這個所有的實驗教育的工作者"},{"start":10922.776,"end":10923.496,"text":"非常感謝你們"},{"start":10953.897,"end":10972.237,"text":"謝謝很感動謝謝佩儀委員她把她的親身經驗分享出來我們有自學的孩子成為中華民國行政院的部長我們也有實驗教育的孩子成為中華民國立法院的立法委員"},{"start":10973.078,"end":10982.164,"text":"好謝謝非常感動那接下來我們邀請的是家長的代表盧竹區外社國小家長會會長黃雅怡會長請"},{"start":10988.291,"end":11014.635,"text":"主席 各位委員 教育部的代表 還有以及在場關心台灣實驗教育的發展的先進同仁們 大家好我是桃園市盧竹區外社國小家長會會長黃雅怡首先我要感謝柯志恩的委員推薦 還有邀請然後以及張雅玲委員的關心讓桃園基層家長的新生有機會進入國會的電台今天我在這裡不僅是代表外社國小的家長會 更是代表一群在台北"},{"start":11014.955,"end":11028.088,"text":"桃園北區生跟認同華德福教育卻深陷教育斷然困境的家庭首先我來介紹一下我們外設國小是在桃園陸竹的北區在桃園北區陸竹區然後我們是在1917年"},{"start":11030.01,"end":11047.646,"text":"民國六年的時候創校是一座擁有百年歷史跟在地情懷非常連結深厚的學校那我們在創校的百年的時候2017年的時候外設國小正式始動華德福的實驗教育因應少子化開啟了學校轉型的新方向"},{"start":11048.874,"end":11067.526,"text":"那在2020年的時候對面的華德福幼兒園然後也正式成立了並採用華德福的理念經營這意味著桃園北區我們就成功的建置從幼兒園到國小的華德福教育聚落而且很多家長正是看重這一個連貫性才將小朋友送來這裡就讀"},{"start":11069.878,"end":11092.689,"text":"而台灣的教育宅在2004年的9月全面實施了9年一貫的教育目標就是讓國小到國中的學習可以無縫接軌到2014年然後更推動了12年的國民教育強調適性洋財同年也呼應主席剛才所說的我們在2014年也通過了實驗教育三法"},{"start":11093.109,"end":11117.522,"text":"但令人不解的是為什麼在政策實施的10年20年的今天外設國小華德福的教育卻走了一半我們到國中畢業之後就被腰斬那我們已經成功的建立了幼小的銜接但在小朋友最成長的關鍵青春期的國中階段我們卻面臨了教育政策的斷層導致我們的家長必須被迫有兩個很困難的選擇一個就是我們"},{"start":11118.582,"end":11136.589,"text":"必须要回到中断我们的教育理念回到了体制内去读国中就像刚才那个前一位委员说的他的经历这是对于小朋友来说是非常大的冲击还有心理压力我们必须要有一段的时间去适应那第二个痛苦的选择就是我们必须要跨区就读"},{"start":11137.689,"end":11163.942,"text":"那我们要远赴我们桃园的南区阳梅的华德福国中那上下班跟上下课的塞车时间往往都是超过单程就超过一个小时不仅是小朋友的体力的虚耗更是长途通行下面的隐藏的一些交通风险跟家长的经济负担这不仅是在教育上面的一些缺失这是对实验选择实验教育的家庭是一种变相的惩罚"},{"start":11164.522,"end":11188.009,"text":"政府宣稱支持實驗教育但卻讓我們桃園北區的家長們的孩子在畢業之後淪為了教育的難民事實上我們距離成功只有差一里路了外設國小我們的現有校舍在前校長的時期已經有規劃一處可以新增二層樓的教室的空間只要政府願意我們可以整合校區的教室資源"},{"start":11188.969,"end":11208.783,"text":"設立國中部即可達到九年一貫的實驗中小學再加上我們有對面的華德福幼兒園我們就可以建構一套完整的從幼兒園到小學中學根基扎實的華德福的實驗學校的部落身為家長的我們我們最看重的就是這一整套全年齡的階段的教育衍接"},{"start":11210.322,"end":11236.685,"text":"然後剛才我們有說過很多的就是我們的師資的部分實驗教育的核心師資的部分是很重要的那目前我們公辦的實驗小學我們的教師的增試主要分成我們有連招跟獨招但多半的體制老師都走的強調是專科跟行政標準的連招而我們的這些實驗教育的理念的學生學校多半都是要在各校辦理獨自招生"},{"start":11237.205,"end":11257.97,"text":"那目前中央对实验教育的读招缺乏一套明确全统一的规范那在各校在办理读招的时候往往都会陷入行政模糊或者理念考核的不一的困境我们建议中央可以制定统一的实验教育师资征询指引让理念专业和制度规范可以有机会可以结合"},{"start":11258.57,"end":11268.151,"text":"然後並不是讓各校在獨自在制度邊緣摸索我們不希望我們的實驗教育的孩子恐有實驗之名而沒有實驗支持的教育場所"},{"start":11271.001,"end":11295.956,"text":"那根據我們的實驗教育三法精神政府保障了我們孩子的受教權跟家長的選擇權那為了實驗教育可以永續發展下去我們在這邊提出了三個以下的具體的訴求第一個是落實九年一貫的玄接桃園市政府應立即規劃在桃園北區設立公辦華德府國中或將外設國小轉型為九年一貫的實驗學校"},{"start":11297.717,"end":11319.948,"text":"第二个诉求是打破师资聘用的僵局教育部应与地方政府协调建立实验学校专案教师聘用办法优先录取有实验教师资格相关的授训的老师进入学校而不应该让没有相关背景或者理念不合的老师随机进入我们的实验校园里面"},{"start":11320.988,"end":11340.49,"text":"第三個訴求是打破行政怠惰實驗教育不應該只是做半道教育部應該監督地方政府在核准國小實驗階段的時候必須同步配套評估國中端的銜接計畫和資質儲備避免造成學生的學習跟理念上面的斷層"},{"start":11342.148,"end":11356.235,"text":"最後我想對在場的長官跟委員說每一位孩子無論他選擇哪一種教育路徑都應該得到政府的公平對待教育的平等不應該是家長選擇了實驗教育而被打折而應該也是"},{"start":11357.856,"end":11385.362,"text":"也不应该因为行政的怠惰让孩子在国小毕业之后就面临无效可读的断层不要打断孩子好不容易建立好的教育的热忱我们的要求不是奢求而是希望小朋友能在一个熟悉的教育理念上面安稳的长大恳请各位委员各位长官听听北区桃园家长们的呼唤让外设国小的理念可以衍生让实验教育在桃园能真正的落地扎根谢谢大家"},{"start":11386.583,"end":11406.32,"text":"非常感谢今天的家长代表黄亚仪会长对于华德福教育实验教育的一个肯定支持那我们一同来努力接下来呢也是特别特别的邀请到东华大学人文社会科学院的院长Awi Monak"},{"start":11406.98,"end":11415.384,"text":"他長期以來因為他是學法律的所以長期以來在原住民族教育體制的建立也給我們非常多的一個指引來 請"},{"start":11436.721,"end":11454.372,"text":"本來韓國阿朗西德克阿朗古魯邦主席 各位委員 大家好我是阿威 來自賽德克祖親流部落剛剛用很簡短的問候語是我賽德克語"},{"start":11455.615,"end":11472.948,"text":"那我用這樣的一個語言想傳達一個訊息我想每個人都有自己最自然最自由的語言那可是很特別的是原住民主要使用自己的語言在現階段被放在實驗教育的環節跟概念裡面"},{"start":11474.069,"end":11491.351,"text":"這個我想對任何一個人來說當你自己的最自然跟最自由的語言沒有辦法在一個所謂的學校教育裡面來自由自然的使用的時候卻被放在是一個實驗的這樣的一個概念這真的是情何以堪"},{"start":11493.168,"end":11516.488,"text":"那當然還是非常感謝有這個機會來跟大家分享我自己的一些觀察那當然與會已經有非常多的這個專家先進都對整體的這個實驗教育的制度提出了非常深刻跟專業的看法那我僅就援助民主的一個實驗教育來提出我的一些想法"},{"start":11517.506,"end":11546.231,"text":"那但是整體來講我覺得我還是必須要從一個原住民族人的角度出發來跟大家分享原住民族跟國家的教育之間究竟一直以來是什麼樣的一種關係簡單來說我認為原住民族教育的一個發展的歷史其實我們是從一個過去國家的一個制度化的暴力轉向目前正在逐步的建構原住民族知識主權的這樣一個轉型路徑"},{"start":11547.918,"end":11571.156,"text":"特别是我们都非常清楚国家教育的体制对于原住民族来讲确实就是作为民族同化的工具那在过去很长一段时间对于原住民族文化的压缩透过教育的系统将原住民族知识边缘化也导致原住民族主体性以及知识智慧的一个断裂"},{"start":11572.53,"end":11590.78,"text":"縱然我們從90年代的憲法徵修到05年的原住民族基本法到後來的一個原住民族教育法到2014年之後的一個實驗教育三法看起來都給了在制度上讓原住民族教育有許多的一個法源的保障"},{"start":11591.42,"end":11601.961,"text":"但是食物的運作仍然陷於是一個同化教育的困境因為仍然是一個實驗的框架仍然是一個補貼式的這樣一種教育的一種結構關係"},{"start":11604.093,"end":11631.408,"text":"因此我想我们从原住民族教育放在不管是学校的教育的体制或者是实验教育的这样的一个环节里面我们看到的仍然是一个点缀式的点缀在预算的补贴点缀在入学的保障以及名额的加成非但没有造成一个实质上面的一个主体性的教育建构更造成了更多的是一个污名化标签化的一个结果"},{"start":11632.526,"end":11647.002,"text":"也因此我認為確立原住民族知識主權其實是我們在討厭不單純只是實驗教育更重要的是原住民族教育發展上面一個非常重要的一個這樣的一個契機"},{"start":11648.499,"end":11664.411,"text":"那我認為其實要落實原住民族教育權因為在憲法上給了非常明確的一個定位那也就變成說我們要如何能夠把原住民族知識視為是跟我們主流的一個學術對等的一個國家的文化資產"},{"start":11665.748,"end":11688.434,"text":"因此我認為如果我們能夠先確立原住民族知識主權的正當性那麼行政體系的結構性轉型就成為是一個首要之物那我今天比較想要強調的核心觀點其實就是原住民族的實驗教育不應該只是一個現行實驗教育制度當中的一種選項"},{"start":11690.035,"end":11707.696,"text":"它不單純只是一個選項而應該是被認為是原住民族的一個教育權文化權跟民族自覺權的一個重要制度的實踐從2014年以來的實驗教育的發展看到了幾個結構性的缺陷第一個就是學習階段的斷層"},{"start":11709.097,"end":11737.585,"text":"也就是说没有办法去衔接到从小学一直连贯到高等教育的这样的一种系统性的一个衔接第二个部分这个缺陷则是反映在资源的措置上那我的观察大部分的这个经费的补贴大多流向人事支出对于比较关键的援助民族知识体系的基础研究包括它的教学模式教材教法的开发其实相对来讲"},{"start":11738.465,"end":11753.14,"text":"是比較不足的地方那第三個部分當然還仍然是實驗教育的定位仍然是被認為是例外那從原住民族的立場來說我們其實要主張的是符合原住民族需求的獨立教育體系"},{"start":11754.521,"end":11779.413,"text":"回過頭來說為什麼實驗教育仍然是一個例外我想我們去看我們現有的法規其實法源是落在教育基本法第13條可是教育基本法第13條它書寫的是政府及民間得是需要進行教育實驗但是後面非常重要的是應該要加強教育研究以及教育評鑑去提升教育品質"},{"start":11780.453,"end":11802.165,"text":"那換言之所謂的教育實驗到底在實驗的是什麼教育實驗我們現在在做的是把一個學校的體制整體去做實驗那回過頭來講我覺得這是一個本末倒置本末倒置也因此就會讓我們這個實驗教會變成是一個例外可是教育基本法第二條很明確告訴我們人民才是教育權的主體"},{"start":11803.266,"end":11829.427,"text":"那也就代表了如果今天人民有這樣的一個教育權的一個主張他就應該是主位而不是一個例外那總的來說我想時間的關係我當然會把書面資料再提供給這個大院來做參考我覺得在未來的一個修法方向上當然前面我也是回應也呼應幾位專家學者所提的對於原住民族實驗教育的發展"},{"start":11829.847,"end":11848.525,"text":"应该要有一个实验的教育的一个专章或者是另外制定专法把原住民族教育的权利的性质跟制度能够更明确的定位第二个部分应该要赋予给学校更完整的人士跟课程的自主权包括教师职聘证的松绑"},{"start":11849.465,"end":11868.132,"text":"讓學校可以讓我們更多的一個部落場域當中的知識的保存者能夠進入到教育體系裡面第三個部分則是要把這個評鑑跟升學制度重新來加以建構我們除了現在已經納入了主語能力文化參與社群服務傳統知識成果"},{"start":11868.692,"end":11883.311,"text":"部落领导跟公共参与能力其实都没有很明确的放在整个这个品鉴跟升学的环节里面当然最重要的是确立部落它能够作为一个教育的一个治理主体的一个地位最后我想要强调"},{"start":11883.872,"end":11907.04,"text":"原住民族實驗教育改革的核心絕對不是設學校而已也不是單純的行政程序的調整真正的關鍵問題應該是我們願不願意承認原住民族擁有決定如何教育下一代的權利我想能夠做到這樣的一個環節才是真正的對於原住民族來講的一個教育轉型的正義那也謝謝大家"},{"start":11908.669,"end":11930.763,"text":"好 非常謝謝阿偉院長他所提供的一些政策上的建議那提供的 各位提供的書面資料其實都會列入立法院的公報記錄謝謝好 那我們下一位呢也是倒數第二位好 我們中華民國政奪學會的丁志仁理事長請上台發言"},{"start":11933.713,"end":11959.849,"text":"各位好我今天的意見分成五點第一點因為委員有提案沒有處理的話會出事情民眾黨團提案要把我們學校實驗教育國中小合計的名額給他分開計算對不對我建議從長計先不要這樣做因為提案委員他以為我們實驗教育有分五軌"},{"start":11961.53,"end":11976.224,"text":"但是他忽略掉事实上实验教育在现场他是混搭的比如说以诺亚来讲他的国小部他是公办理那他的国中部他就选择机构实验教育"},{"start":11977.004,"end":11996.901,"text":"那如果說你這個這個沒有去把那個現場混搭的情況釐清你都把它假定就是分軌的硬要把它分開拆算會害死很多現在已經受那個進行中的case那第二個耐市保委員提案說要對"},{"start":11998.222,"end":12024.993,"text":"那個優良辦學的那個實驗教育校長教師的年齡給他放寬限制這個也建議從長計議為什麼因為那個優良辦學很難定義尤其是目前實驗教育採取採取這種輔導型輔助型的評鑑那你要在這種性質的評鑑之下再去判定優良對不對很難那"},{"start":12025.913,"end":12046.279,"text":"而且還忽略掉一件很重要的事情就是台灣非常非常多的私立學校它後面是有家族背景的他們延長校長跟教師的服務年限在這種有家族背景的脈絡底下後遺症是很巨大的第三就是建議原民會"},{"start":12049.561,"end":12068.803,"text":"如果說實驗教育是我們台灣教育的RD那麼原住民實驗教育就是我們實驗教育的RD它應該是台灣所有實驗教育裡面放得最寬的譬如說我們普通的實驗教育是不允許部分班級辦理實驗教育但是我們"},{"start":12070.004,"end":12089.152,"text":"那個原住民實驗教育是可以的所以他放得最寬的那這一次如果我們要再去探討原住民實驗教育的進一步探索跟放寬那我建議有三個重點第一個就是辦學場地的擴充對原住民的實驗教育來講山林跟農事場地這個一定是"},{"start":12089.972,"end":12109.337,"text":"不可能是按照我们那个普通学校教育用地的概念去使用所以一定要在那个能修法最好不能修法修行任命令尽快尽快放缓他们办学场地那第二个建议就是生态系化我们很多的原住民实验学校已经都有很多很多了"},{"start":12110.756,"end":12138.295,"text":"但是他下一步他需要把这种很多的要变成一个生态系就如同袁明辉自己已经认知到他需要结合教育社政卫政很多很多但是你要把它生态系化他需要一个hub就是极限器的设计到目前为止关于整个原住民实验教育怎么样是一个良好的hub怎么样是一个好的极限器探讨还太少所以要赶快突破那第三个"},{"start":12139.075,"end":12154.142,"text":"是自主學習典範的引入因為我們台灣有了實驗教育之後非常大的成果之一就是什麼就是它造就了台灣的自主學習典範把老師的角色由傳道授業解惑改變成陪伴想導教練"},{"start":12155.242,"end":12172.825,"text":"而这个绝对是台湾教育要因应整个全球AI环境化对不对传统教育价值沉没必须要走的路但是在实验教育发展出整个自主学典范之后很快的"},{"start":12173.866,"end":12200.391,"text":"現在已經引入到中間學業領域很多社大開始引進這些這些概念跟作品但是原住民實驗教育對這邊自主學點範的理解不管是論述啦實踐方法啦還是陪伴者的陪理的理解還太少太少所以可能要趕快趕快就是引進這個部分讓那個原住民實驗教育原住民主體性跟自主學兩個相成"},{"start":12200.931,"end":12226.61,"text":"作為下一代下一代原住民RD的那個重點之一那第四個我要拜託教育部跟國教署做兩件事情第一個就是因為原住民族實驗教育是我們實驗教育放得最寬的那你們看一下就是哪一些已經有多年實踐經驗比較可以合理掌控你再調回來再進一步去放寬實驗三法中的那些規範例如說"},{"start":12228.672,"end":12239.487,"text":"像刚才讲的不管是办学场地的扩充或者已经在做的部分办理实验教育那我们参考在原住民教育里面的那些那些"},{"start":12240.68,"end":12266.699,"text":"那个实践经验回过头来放欢三法所规定的实验教育那第二个要拜托的就是就已经谈了很久很久了因为我们三法实验教育三法跟私教法有很多竞合的地方谈了快十年了这竞合的地方到底在哪一个脉络底下因为两边对某些事情都有规定应该优先适用于三法哪些地方要用那个准用或者是"},{"start":12267.159,"end":12296.839,"text":"适用于那个私校法那既然那个那现在呢现在可能要开始做一件事情你要去考虑除了私校法跟三法的竞合以外还要考虑到私校法三法以及原住民实验教育之间的竞合尤其是这一次委员提出来很多原住民主实验学校的法律它很多地方跟三法目前的规定不一致那到时候如果这样修法修过了之后那到底在现场要适用哪一边对不对那就很难讲这是第四个"},{"start":12297.139,"end":12312.283,"text":"那最後給我一點聲第五點我要拜託在座所有實驗教育的朋友以及委員們千萬不要延伸特教三級輔導機制到實驗教育這邊來這樣子會好心辦壞事因為實驗教育這邊他的輔導的那個"},{"start":12322.245,"end":12337.351,"text":"那个哲学跟那个做法跟我们体制学教辅导的哲学跟做法不一样在很多的例子里面在两岸实验教育的例子里面都看到非常多那些特殊学习去教学生到了实验教育领域里面不要而遇"},{"start":12339.061,"end":12353.093,"text":"但是你如果硬靠目前三级辅导机制到实验教育这边来那就会导致很可能那个辅导机制本身就是问题所以今天已经有多次委员在探讨所以"},{"start":12355.635,"end":12373.383,"text":"那我就建议大家立刻马上去探讨适合实验教育的辅导机制那初步线索他应该去组合法服模式跟长照模式的非常多的做法那个会更适合实验教育而不是目前的三级辅导机制谢谢大家"},{"start":12375.281,"end":12393.386,"text":"謝謝非常感謝丁志仁老師他長期以來都是在實踐的場域非常感謝提供非常多很具體的建議謝謝今天公聽會最後一位是來自山區的學校"},{"start":12394.767,"end":12409.649,"text":"是北業國小陳惠美校長那我先跟各位介紹一下陳惠美校長她其實是在蒂摩爾國小她是一個原住民實驗學校服務滿8年之後她又來到"},{"start":12410.169,"end":12430.984,"text":"隔壁另外一間原住民實驗學校北越國小所以他在原住民實驗學校服務的時間非常的長那可能蒂莫爾實驗學校也是第一代進入的實驗學校但是我想因為剛才很多老師有做說明包括丁丁老師所以我做一個補充其實"},{"start":12432.265,"end":12455.597,"text":"那個我們屏東是在98學年度 當時我是泰晤國小校長我們其實就已經開始想要走所謂的全族語幼兒園還有推動民族教育 那很高興這一些推動最後都被教育部還有園民會接納推廣補助到全國的原住民學校"},{"start":12456.437,"end":12476.891,"text":"但是其實我們花了很多的時間因為我們在103年有申請一個原住民族課程發展中心所以就著力在編輯台灣族盧凱族的族群本位的教材"},{"start":12478.393,"end":12493.013,"text":"可是後來因為跟著實驗聯盟各位一起推動實驗教育三法通過之後我們就變成可以叫做原住民實驗學校可是剛才阿威院長他有提醒"},{"start":12493.613,"end":12522.709,"text":"其实一开始我们没有实验学校的想法我们其实在走的是希望建立一个双轨正式的一个原住民族的教育体制只不过这条路不容易走因为要解决客服的难题很多因为我们必须要专注在语言的师资如何建立那如何让未来原住民的语言能够传承下去所以课程也好教材也好师资也好"},{"start":12523.129,"end":12551.974,"text":"其实就是为了要用援助民族学校法来去做一个建构所以在这个部分就是做一个前沿说明来 陈慧美校长请首先要感谢我们的召委五位员的邀约使我有机会在这个地方跟大家一起分享各位委员还有各位教育部长官人民会长官还有我们"},{"start":12553.094,"end":12576.67,"text":"專家學者行進大家好我是真的是來自教育現場的一個工作者目前在原住民民主學校實驗教育的學校服務也將近長達快10年了自己曾其投入在文化本位的一個課程來說自己是一個民主教育的一個推動的一個校長"},{"start":12578.991,"end":12595.066,"text":"那今天非常榮幸能夠藉這個實驗教育三法修法來提出我個人在教育現場的一個觀察跟一些建議那首先我真的是要肯定我們實驗教育三法從2014年的一個立法"},{"start":12595.546,"end":12613.195,"text":"然後到2017年的修法修法以來確實是為我們台灣教育帶來了很重要的一個改變那也從我們的文獻資料當中也知道說學生人數從2000多人增加到目前的一個2萬多人"},{"start":12613.675,"end":12638.432,"text":"也就是說顯示我們的整個社會對我們教育是多元化的一個期待也反映出我們的制度也越來越逐漸的一個成熟但是在這樣的一個成長之下我們必須要誠實面對一個問題現實的一個制度當中是否已經滿足了回應了不同族群的一個教育需求呢所以我們對一般的社會現況來說實驗教育是一個選擇"},{"start":12643.815,"end":12661.107,"text":"但是對我們原住民教育而言教育就是一個就如同馬爾維教授他所講的原住民教育是一個文化傳承的一個場域是我們足以復振的一個基礎民族自覺的一個實踐所以它是一個基本權利"},{"start":12661.747,"end":12678.472,"text":"保衛就是把這一個對實驗教育來講它是一個基本的權利或從整個原住民教育的一個從選擇的一個想法然後要變成是一個基本權利我們走向的一個民主教育所以民主教育"},{"start":12679.272,"end":12704.05,"text":"多半都是被納入在現行的實驗教育的體系當中我覺得這個本質上是一個非常矛盾我們應該要將這一個的權利當作是將一向的一個權利當作是一種選擇這樣的一個制度的一個設計設計來說對很容易讓我們這個整個原住民主教育長期的在一個邊緣的一個位置所以"},{"start":12705.905,"end":12716.591,"text":"所以在我這個服務的一個學校來說我們發展這個影迷族群文化為核心的一個課程比如說像部落歷史跟傳說還有一些傳統記憶跟我們的生活智慧"},{"start":12721.334,"end":12740.382,"text":"文化規範跟所有的一個價值的一個系統當孩子們在這樣的一個學習中成長的時候我們看到的不只是學習成效的一個提升而是我們開始帶著孩子去理解自己的文化認同自己的一個身份來做建立並建立他們的一個自信"},{"start":12740.982,"end":12768.27,"text":"但同時我們也面臨到許許多多的一個制度的一個限制比方像我們的評鑑制度仍然是一個主流教育的一個評鑑為標準那許許多多的一些資源分配的部分也還有一些支持性的一個系統我們真的也是需要更多的一個需求來去做更多的支持而推動相關的援助民主的一個教育所以這些問題等等"},{"start":12769.71,"end":12787.379,"text":"并非是个别学校可以解决的而是一个从整个制度的一个层次的一个问题来做解决所以我在政策的一个建议提出了一个四大项的一个建议第一个建立原制民主教育的一个专属法治的定位"},{"start":12788.28,"end":12804.461,"text":"這個已經是我們學者專家好幾位一直在提醒一直在能夠透過這樣的一個修法的一個機會是不是實驗教育三法中設立一個專章針對我們援助民主教育的一個專章的一個法則"},{"start":12805.282,"end":12831.075,"text":"或者是一個推動原住民主教育的一個特別法就是明確的定位民主教育的一個權利的一個實踐的一個機制這是我第一個部分那第二個部分就是轉化這個評鑑跟審議的一個制度那在評鑑的一個過程中我是希望能夠納入一個部落知識的一個體系"},{"start":12832.316,"end":12856.683,"text":"還有一些文化的規範還有一些社群的一個參與跟影響的部分從這樣的一個具體的一個納入評鑑的一些相關的一個制度的部分能夠增加比較有實務性的一些相關的委員避免單一的去標準衡量多元的一個教育這是在整個轉換評鑑跟審議制度的一個建議"},{"start":12859.944,"end":12876.793,"text":"那第三個建議的部分是部落強化強化這一個部落的一個主體性因為我們常常從制度上的想法當中許許多多的一個制度的一個建立我們是不是應該要保障部落參與的一個辦學的一個決策當中還有我們的課程內容的一個文化自主的部分還有我們的教育治理的一個共同參與"},{"start":12887.239,"end":12904.387,"text":"我覺得許許多多的教育應該要回到我們的教育真正要回到部落這是一個強化部落的一個主體性這是我第三個建議第四個建議是希望能夠建構完整的原住民主教育體系"},{"start":12905.467,"end":12929.677,"text":"因為目前的一個資源分散的一個整個教育的一個分散的體系當中我們可以看到能夠建議的話是從幼兒園到高等教育的一個體系那目前很高興就芭蘭花現在從幼兒園一直到高中是有這樣的一個潛力那是不是有可以在更多的一個這樣的一個體系能夠展出然後明"},{"start":12930.477,"end":12950.692,"text":"確的來未來的一個民主學校的一個法律的一個定位就是在整個建構完整民主教育體系當中是一個非常重要的一個很重要的一個建構的一個歷程所以為了要讓原住民主教育不再是依附而是能夠獨立發展"},{"start":12952.193,"end":12973.564,"text":"所以我建議了這樣的一個非常重要的完整的原住民主教育體系那最後我想說的是這次的修法不是一個制度的一個調整機會而是一個價值的一個選擇希望我們的原住民主教育不只是一個教育政策的一個部分而是我們台灣多元文化"},{"start":12974.424,"end":13001.297,"text":"跟歷史正義的一個重要的一個實踐也希望我們讓這個原住民族實驗教育它從一個替代性的一個教育走向一個真正的民族本位教育以上謝謝大家 謝謝好 非常感謝今天公聽會最後一位發言者陳惠美校長她代表所有的原住民族實驗學校來做這樣的一個發言那今天"},{"start":13002.137,"end":13026.037,"text":"所有参与的学者专家还有委员们的发言都已经完毕我们也希望很快能够就不论是实验三法的修法或援助民族学校法我们都能够尽速的来排审有机会往前进有机会二三读在这边谢谢大家的参与"},{"start":13026.437,"end":13036.421,"text":"那最後我們請機關代表今天有教育部跟園民會來做一個回應首先有請教育部我們張亮彎監事長謝謝好謝謝主席我想我今天從頭到尾聽了15位我們專家學者還有5位委員的發言一共20位那記錄相當多心情也非常複雜因為從"},{"start":13053.353,"end":13074.33,"text":"03年應該民國91年我在台中就竹林門跟華德湖的教育相關的一些專家學就來找我坤冰也是其中之一其實我非常了解那個過程那其實台灣能夠有這個在後來在立法院2014年的立法跟我在當立委的時候2017年的立法其實對於這個實驗教育來講已經往前一大步"},{"start":13076.972,"end":13095.285,"text":"那現在的法治問題是有的它已經有一些彈性但是我必須坦白講我剛才聽了這20位就是實驗教育分很多型態那其實也有很多問題是譬如說非學型態的實驗機構可能是它比較有理念比較小規模的"},{"start":13095.845,"end":13117.286,"text":"那這部分他們經營得非常辛苦那我也覺得應該要得到政府的正視就是說已經走了在法立法之後走了十多年立法以前走了更久那這些已經辦得相當有理念相當成熟我覺得政府的不能無視就是說在公務"},{"start":13118.688,"end":13135.181,"text":"這個公共資源的一個介入上面我有特別聽到說我覺得我們應該應該已經不只是實驗教育它是一個創新教育所以我覺得如果是這樣子的話那實驗教育如果已經很穩定在發展像我們台中華德府已經有從剛才陶遠說他們"},{"start":13136.607,"end":13153.983,"text":"只有9年沒有12年台中其實在當時我們早年的協助到現在其實在大概10年前10多年前他們就已經到12年一貫這條路其實是民間自發然後政府民意代表政府來協助然後他們走的還算健康但是"},{"start":13154.784,"end":13179.461,"text":"我們也不得不承認有些像公辦公營的一個學校形態它解決的地方政府的辦學不容易但是呢它的整個形態是不是像剛才我聽到的好像是教師會葉老師講的說有些是創新有些是套用那套用的話它所用的資資它所用的資源其實跟"},{"start":13180.422,"end":13205.8,"text":"我所了解的比較辛苦的非學型態的教學是不一樣的那因為我們那個審議實驗教育的審核權中央立法地方審核所以你會發現我們現在的兩萬七千多個學生一百多個學校型態或非學型態的教育機構其實又很不一樣"},{"start":13207.109,"end":13229.911,"text":"我不願意用說什麼是假的實驗教育什麼是真的實驗教育但是因為是地方審核每個縣市政府在審核的時候專家學者跟那個門檻有時候也有不一致那也有一些已經退場了那怎麼樣來真正的讓實驗教育走了那麼久之後讓那個創新教育精神留著我覺得是我們應該要思考的"},{"start":13230.231,"end":13253.331,"text":"所以我剛才也跟我們的同仁講說我們是不是今年就開始來想辦法用創新教育的一個計畫方式來對一些走得很辛苦走得很好的實驗教育機構透過一些審議的方式我們來給予資源的挹注而且這個資源挹注應該要快而且要有一些有效的方式"},{"start":13253.951,"end":13270.045,"text":"那第二點就是說剛才我也聽到了就是講說我們創新教育跟主流教育應該要有一些交流那他回饋才會讓我們的主流教育尤其現在是108課綱我們一直很鼓勵老師教學創新學生自主學習這某種"},{"start":13270.806,"end":13291.405,"text":"精神上是一致的可是我們主流教育跟實驗教育之間的聯繫跟那個反饋沒有建立好所以我剛才也只是說我們一定要從今年開始來做演繹我們明年呢開始來做這方面的交流一定要把這個東西留下來那第三點就是我聽到的很多是場地的問題那事實上"},{"start":13292.566,"end":13307.359,"text":"我要跟大家報告去年的9月行政院工工程委員會也有針對我們學校很多這個包括我們所謂的校舍餘育空間多元運用跟場地租借的相關規定其實在去年9月已經訂了就是說"},{"start":13308.18,"end":13332.581,"text":"他必須要每年調查定期清查而且納入我們的評鑑所以可能剛才我們那個實驗教育的那個系統裡面可能比較不了解有這樣子的一個我們那個是會有考評的我們將來會去定期了解每個縣市對於這個學校空間的使用行情他們按照這個規定來公告來讓"},{"start":13334.582,"end":13345.746,"text":"這個地方在辦學的這個實驗教育他們在找場地找得很辛苦找得很不固定常常搬來搬去像我講的那個那個最早的在台中那個從20幾年內搬了三次家現在還比較穩定那"},{"start":13350.848,"end":13365.255,"text":"另外就是最後有談到那個原住民族教育的部分我所了解是在原教法108年修法的時候其實在已經也納入相當多的彈性我曾經到博馬去考察過那個學校大概在"},{"start":13366.756,"end":13382.696,"text":"十年前我來當議員的時候他們就開始用泰雅語族來做教案教材完全是有考慮到用文化傳承就是他自己族群的那個文化所以他其實是大大超越原來實驗教育的一些基本的一個框架"},{"start":13383.197,"end":13396.112,"text":"所以我是認為說剛才有好幾位我們原住民的學校的那個代表我想吳委員也了解我們這個方面怎麼樣來合作然後來讓這個"},{"start":13398.994,"end":13416.48,"text":"那個原住民族地區的一些實驗教育或者說從原教法的觀點裡面來顧及他的主體性甚至就是他就是應該本來就不是實驗教育他就是他的那就是他的原住民族教育這個我想我們會尊重跟原住民族委員會一起來努力"},{"start":13417,"end":13440.902,"text":"那當然我還聽到我自己的筆記很多啦我對實驗教育其實也蠻關心的那也跟委員一樣就是說在資源投入不足的部分我們會立即我會立即回去跟同的研究就是我們在便利預算的時候就納入明年的預算然後來鼓勵真正已經走了這麼多年然後非常辛苦遇到一些問題譬如剛才"},{"start":13441.923,"end":13459.85,"text":"提到失智的問題那失智養成是真的很難有這個華德福系統有蒙特索里甚至有我們台灣自己TFT自己也出來的跟偏鄉教育一起來結合的其實我覺得真的很難但是我們要怎麼鼓勵剛才有專學提到"},{"start":13461.15,"end":13481.349,"text":"這些很有熱血的從事這個實驗教育的我們的老師們怎麼樣子我剛才提到說我們現在不是白衣青年的那個計畫35歲以下我們是不是去跟青年署講我們就鼓勵在實驗教育35歲以下年屆的老師能夠提出一些計畫他們也可以鼓勵他們"},{"start":13482.33,"end":13497.974,"text":"能夠去看看其他國家的實驗教育創新教育是怎麼樣子來實施回來再反饋給台灣的實驗教育讓我們的教育能夠走得更好這是我剛才聽到也很希望能夠來回應那這部分"},{"start":13498.434,"end":13523.912,"text":"我一定會努力回去爭取謝謝大家提供那麼多利劍第一位的那個老師我也記得你講其實我聽完你都知道我聽完你那個六點我就知道說你是相當的了解那我們同仁都有紀錄我們一定會來針對這些問題來想一想也許沒有辦法一下解決我們同仁也說一定會在修法前一定會找今天來的很多專家學者一起來研討要怎麼做比較好"},{"start":13524.733,"end":13540.818,"text":"那今年如果因為今年可能我坦白講今年可能都要省預算了過來省預算校會局省預算那我們開始收起意見也許在2017年2017年我們修過時間教育那明年是2027年在10年之後我們做一個比較"},{"start":13542.106,"end":13559.44,"text":"收集資源完整之後我們來做一個比較更進一步的修法我希望我相信台灣的實驗教育在大家的關心下一定會越走越好謝謝大家 謝謝好 謝謝次長給予了很多很正向的政策回應"},{"start":13560.18,"end":13574.993,"text":"包括給大家已經有一個2027年這樣的一個概念出來希望在那一年可以來完成修法謝謝次長那其實他傳來台中市議員一直到立法院立法委員"},{"start":13575.854,"end":13594.882,"text":"都是带领台中市还有包括实验三法的一个立法通过其实我们张亮万间次长都是在这个当中是很重要的一个推手谢谢他那另外一个机关代表是我们圆明会是不是也来做一些回应谢谢"},{"start":13601.448,"end":13626.389,"text":"謝謝吳立華召委那也謝謝在場的各位專家學者那今天有部分專家學者都有提到有關於原住民教育的一些提醒那召委其實一路都陪伴園民會尤其在原住民教育體系的完整建構這件事情包括原住民學校法的催生這件事情召委都要提醒那今天有些委員也提到"},{"start":13626.869,"end":13653.297,"text":"未来的整体的规划方向应该要特别注意的部分我们也会把它纳入到我们的未来的规划那我们现在推动的三支计划一个叫做学校形态的原住民主实验教育然后我们在推动的原住民知识的建构以及全民研教的部分还有要谢谢赵伟不断的催生之后我们在今年年初终于有第一间的原住民学校的试办计划"},{"start":13653.877,"end":13673.241,"text":"我们想从这些经验跟累积的一些经验去看看确实就像赵伟提醒我们的包括制度的设立师资的培育如何让原住民的主义变成教学语言回到那个为院长提到的原住民知识变成我教育的主体性这一块我们再去完整规划"},{"start":13673.661,"end":13701.153,"text":"那也會跟教育部一起來那也希望各位專家學者也陪同我們也希望召委持續來督促我們我們一起把原住民的教育體系能夠完整建構以上回應 謝謝好 謝謝那個邱文龍副處長他是教育文化那一路走來在園民會20多年都在接觸這個業務我們是希望說原住民族學校法可以推動啦這個要仰賴園民會制度的完全"},{"start":13701.713,"end":13716.485,"text":"让这些学校能够安心谢谢今天我们所有的发言跟回应均已完毕在这里真的很谢谢大家从9点"},{"start":13717.185,"end":13737.365,"text":"做到现在快要12点半了三个半小时的时间没有离开那今天所有的发言我们都非常的重视也请大家如果可以的话未来可以进一步的跟各个委员的办公室来交通甚至提供一个所谓的"},{"start":13738.345,"end":13754.461,"text":"提案的文字建議都沒有關係我想各個委員應該都會很高興我們今天的時間就到這邊結束如果會後大家還要繼續交流也是可以的在這邊我來宣布"},{"start":13757.401,"end":13772.781,"text":"本日公听会到此依据立法院职权新司法第58条规定委员会应于公听会终结后10天内依出席者所提供之正反意见提出公听会报告"},{"start":13773.261,"end":13793.88,"text":"送交本院全体委员及出席者第59条规定公听会报告作为审查该特定议案之参考那今天的公听会到此告一个段落感谢所有与会者从不同的面向提供诸多宝贵的意见今天各位的发言内容跟所有的书面资料"},{"start":13794.42,"end":13812.402,"text":"均列入记录刊登公报并制作成公听会报告送交本院全体委员及所有出席的与会人员参考再次感谢各位出席今天的公听会所提供的宝贵意见我们会审慎考量作为未来修法的依据谢谢大家现在散会"},{"start":13817.622,"end":13819.343,"text":"謝謝啊,謝謝啊,謝謝啊,謝謝啊,謝謝啊,"},{"start":13848.635,"end":13851.278,"text":"這間餐廳有很多不同的餐廳,有很多不同的餐廳"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}