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希望能夠達成共識第二題呢 就是大家都非常關切的軍購特別條例那我們現在依序進行來協商也要聽一下各黨團的法規意見好 請陳總召發言國民黨團請準備 好不好我在這邊先有一個問題 我想請教院長"},{"start":3718.226,"end":3734.474,"text":"我們的中央政府總預算會形成現在的僵局要由我們院長來主持協商我想所以我們也了解院長的用心但是今天我們對總預算的協商目前"},{"start":3735.959,"end":3763.289,"text":"行政院 院本部剛剛我聽到我們院長的介紹只有我們主計嘛 主計總署院本部行政院沒有派任何人員來練習來參與那我先請教今天我們的預算會形成這樣的僵局最主要是行政院賴政府的一切作為"},{"start":3764.54,"end":3786.805,"text":"所以我們才會有這樣的預算僵局那今天院長要協商我們台灣民眾黨我們也同意也很樂意院長願意來解決這樣的僵局但是行政院都沒有派人來那我們過去針對預算這樣的一個問題我們有提出了相當多的一個意見"},{"start":3788.291,"end":3809.566,"text":"那我不曉得今天在場任期的不管是部長或是主席處能夠做一些正面的回應嗎我在這邊先提出這樣的疑問我想陳主席長就是有在預算方面相當大的代表性您是希望是行政院的秘書長至少也要秘書長"},{"start":3813.208,"end":3831.407,"text":"行政院都不派人 那我們來協商中央政府總預算那我剛才已經表明了這樣好不好 親同學您意見表達完畢那我在想是說 你要不要把你現在最關切的問題很清楚 扼要講出來"},{"start":3832.208,"end":3850.265,"text":"除了一部分就是屬於行政院要派一個院本部的一個位階的第二部分才是真正的實質部分就是台灣民眾黨現在最關切的是什麼造成今天總預算的延宕這一點可能要講清楚好嗎好 針對第二部分由我來說明我想台灣民眾黨針對這個總預算的部分其實我們"},{"start":3853.628,"end":3873.903,"text":"也提過非常非常多次啦那也就是說基本上我們對於上次行政院提出來的這個預算基於我們上個會期通過的兩部法基本上包括軍人的這個待遇那個替代率的調整跟所謂的這個警察人員的退休的部分"},{"start":3876.001,"end":3891.06,"text":"這個基本上並沒有涵蓋在這個預算裡面所以基本上才造成這樣的僵局所以台灣民眾黨這邊還是重申今天在做協商的時候希望雖然這個行政院對於這個通過的法律有一些不同的見解"},{"start":3892.601,"end":3918.973,"text":"這部事情是有附屬的只是他們預計要去實現我想在這個還沒有確定之前我希望今天的協商還是可以達到一個共識就是行政院這邊可以把這個我們過去通過這兩個法令裡面通過了這個預算的部分能夠編在這個總預算裡面以上好 謝謝台灣民眾黨團比較清楚的列出來了關切的要點我們現在請國民黨團發言好嗎"},{"start":3922.401,"end":3944.234,"text":"好 林沛翔署長請發言好 院長 各位在場的委員們今天的討論其實指的不是預算問題而已其實是一個更根本的問題那我們到底還要不要依法行政 依法審查身為立法委員 我們當然有責任通過法案審查預算但也正是因為我們是立法委員我們更沒有資格違法"},{"start":3945.034,"end":3972.627,"text":"一份不符合法定程序的總預算案如果我們照單全收那不叫有效率那叫失職那不叫配合國政那叫破壞制度所以這真的不是黨派之間的問題這是憲政分際的問題是法治國最基本的底線問題從去年8月到現在時間已經過了這麼久行政院卻仍然不願意依法完整編列預算把立法院已經三讀通過的法案排除在外這不只是程序問題"},{"start":3973.627,"end":3999.377,"text":"這已經直接影響到人民的生活該有的民生預算被卡住該推動的政策被延宕然後現在反過來說是立法院在擋預算這有點像是說考試不交考卷然後怪老師不給分數還順便說隔壁同學影響他發揮那過去八年老實講完全執政或許讓某些人已經習慣了一些模式行政院怎麼提 立法院就怎麼過政策怎麼寫 立委就怎麼按"},{"start":4000.057,"end":4026.665,"text":"但抱歉著是今非現在時代已經時空背景不同立法院不是行政院的立法區立法委員也不是橡皮圖章如果我們今天連最基本的程序正義都守不住那我們有什麼資格談民生談改革談進步而且更遺憾的在這段協商的過程裡面在野黨的立場其實非常單純我們一再重申撇開黨派優先照顧民生我們並不是為了卡而卡"},{"start":4027.165,"end":4041.808,"text":"更不是因為反對而反對相反的我們提出了很多具體正面的建議啊譬如說我們可以先就已經符合法定程序沒有爭議的民生預算優先處理讓地方補助社福支出基礎建設都不受影響"},{"start":4042.609,"end":4059.254,"text":"或者說針對行政院尚未依法補正的部分定出明確的時程讓程序回到正軌而不是無限期拖延這些都是解方而且是可以立即執行的解方但是很可惜我們現在看到行政院我們執政單位的目前選擇比較像是說"},{"start":4061.815,"end":4082.181,"text":"把責任先丟出去我們再來談解決方案那甚至有一種奇怪的邏輯行政院可以不先依法編列預算但是立法院一定要先違法審查否則就是不顧民生這種說法如果成立那未來制度就變成說規則是參考用的責任是別人的那我們還需要法律做什麼"},{"start":4083.101,"end":4100.06,"text":"其實我們都很清楚我想三黨都很清楚人民要的很簡單不是誰輸誰贏而是事情能不能做生活能不能過所以我們今天的呼籲也很簡單第一請行政院回到依法行政的軌道儘速提出符合法定程序的總預算案"},{"start":4100.6,"end":4128.223,"text":"第二讓立法院可以回到應有的角色依法審查而不是在違法與背書之間做選擇第三朝野一起把民生擺在第一位用制度解決問題而不是用情緒製造對立我們總預算是可以討論的可以調整的甚至可以吵架的但依法這件事情不應該變成可以協商的選項不然哪一天連守法我們都要來表決通過的時候那我們好像真的太忙了一點以上"},{"start":4129.401,"end":4132.643,"text":"謝謝林書遠發言,我們接著請民進黨團蔡總召請發言謝謝院長我想一開始好像又進入到一些程序的問題其實"},{"start":4149.758,"end":4159.064,"text":"民進黨最贊成要依法行政、要依法審查、要依法編列預算所以其實我不是太了解林佩祥委員所提到"},{"start":4160.711,"end":4184.022,"text":"行政院哪裡沒有依法編列預算這個我不是太懂那如果我的理解根據民眾黨團剛剛所提到的理解應該是指說立法院三讀通過包括軍人待遇條例裡面要給軍人加薪包括對警消的這些福利待遇等等"},{"start":4185.302,"end":4211.764,"text":"那正如同我講的,憲法很清楚嘛立法院不得替行政院增加預算我想這個大家都清楚嘛所以立法院增加了預算要叫行政院去執行這個本身就違憲那我講違憲可能國民黨也不同意那沒有關係,我們就讓憲法法庭來做決定所以首先我們必須釐清它其實沒有叫違法編列"},{"start":4212.945,"end":4237.973,"text":"雙方在這個問題上面到底立法院可不可以替行政院增加預算民進黨認為違憲國民黨跟民眾黨認為沒有那沒有關係國家有憲法可以來解決兩院之間的爭端所以首先我們必須釐清或許他現在比較公允的講他正處於這樣的一個階段當中所以這個我想必須要來討論那民進黨態度也很清楚"},{"start":4239.619,"end":4263.051,"text":"特別是我一直在強調這幾個月來我一直在表達善意也就是說民進黨黨團也好行政院也好對於軍人的加薪或者對於警消的這些相關的福利其實是我們很願意支持的民進黨對於軍人的加薪各位如果翻開歷史都知道我想"},{"start":4264.943,"end":4290.844,"text":"從蔡英文總統一直到賴清德總統這十年來我們對軍公教我們是四次調薪調薪的幅度是14%那對於軍人遠的就不講了光114年我們的五項的這個職務佳績就它依照那個繁重程度啊或者是不是離島啦山區啦我們都給予繁重給予這個佳績這個就花了國家146.4億"},{"start":4293.886,"end":4323.115,"text":"的這個提高軍人的福利所以我的意思是說如果國民黨民進黨團覺得還是不夠本席其實也非常同意因為軍人太重要面對對岸的威脅怎麼樣讓軍人待遇更好怎麼樣讓他們在用實質在這個金錢上面福利上面給予他們保家衛國捍衛中華民國的這樣的一個辛苦我們給予他更多的福利其實民進黨團都是支持"},{"start":4323.835,"end":4343.878,"text":"行政院左院長他也表示跟賴總統都表示他們都是支持的那所以我們可不可以採取一個不要違憲的方式也就是說大家如果都覺得他們很辛苦在某一個程度上應該加薪或者增加他們的福利那我們應該做了一個這樣的決議然後我們請行政院提出版本"},{"start":4344.719,"end":4368.821,"text":"因為立法院不可以自己幫人家加預算嘛那行政院提了一個版本那我們朝野三黨大家再坐下來討論看這樣的版本適不適合或者哪裡該做調整的我想這個叫做善意這個是在合法合憲的情況底下民進黨團很誠懇的表達了這個善意所以對於這些加薪什麼的我覺得很簡單就我們把總預算付為"},{"start":4371.724,"end":4380.603,"text":"民進黨團也在這裡表達立場我們很願意很願意很願意講三次因為很重要來讓我們的警消"},{"start":4382.269,"end":4403.979,"text":"這個軍公教都一起在整個福利這個照顧他們的這個架構底下我們來增加他們的福利甚至速度來調心但這個都必須要跟行政院討論除了微信的問題之外我們也希望讓他不要有相對剝奪就盡量我們設計立法院來討論然後行政院提出案子我們來盡量讓"},{"start":4406.291,"end":4433.158,"text":"依照他們的勤務或者他們的性質的不同勤務的繁重不同性質的不同然後都一起來討論那也不要說只有處理軍人那你讓我們的公務同仁這麼多的公務人員他有這個產生相對好像這個國家只有對軍人比較好那其他的公務同仁也沒有得到這個相對的回應或照顧我覺得這個也不是太好"},{"start":4433.698,"end":4461.28,"text":"所以他必須要在國家財政預算可以吻合前提我們都要照顧軍公教或者警消然後呢這個合理性跟他的公平性都得到照顧這個情況底下我覺得大家都怎麼會反對做這個事情呢但是立法院自己決定這個就是我們都很清楚這個就是違憲嘛所以國民黨是國會最大黨民眾黨支持國民黨也形成了這個"},{"start":4462.646,"end":4490.412,"text":"執政必須要尊重嘛因為這是民意但是這個民意大家也不要忘記行政權的賴總統也是民意選出來的所以民意跟民意之間有衝突要嘛我們就請憲法釋憲第二個憲法規定要怎麼解決這個爭端這個爭端就是不然就要行政院我們大家對行政院提這個不信任案然後國會重新來改選回到問民意這個就是我們中華民國憲法時刻不管你支不支持、贊不贊成"},{"start":4491.872,"end":4505.745,"text":"你要維護中華民國憲法此刻解決爭端其實就是兩個方法嘛那所以我們在這兩個方法大家都不願意做那我們還是回到議場上就我們也釋出善意但同樣的我們也希望"},{"start":4507.77,"end":4522.643,"text":"這個國民黨跟民眾黨也釋出善意讓預算可以賦為審查否則大家在這邊炒這些東西此刻各地方政府所需要的預算人民所需要RR逮捕的這些預算其實都是卡在立法院嘛"},{"start":4523.303,"end":4549.277,"text":"所以我的具體就我的發言其實一開始我就很有誠意的提出民進黨團的想法那這個想法一定程度我也跟行政院長行政院溝通過他們也來支持我們跟黨團同樣的想法所以是不是請國民黨跟民眾黨我們就一起啦以蒼生為念大家共同來支持讓預算在禮拜五可以來復違那預算復違之後也不是通過嘛復違之後"},{"start":4551.319,"end":4570.6,"text":"這個兩黨可以再發揮強力監督的方式這個該可以做的我們緊迫讓他做不可以做的部分呢那我們該刪除那當然他就應該被討論被刪除所以我的想法是這個樣子所以在這個今天的這個朝野協商開始之前我先把我的立場跟想法跟我的善意把它提出來謝謝"},{"start":4571.621,"end":4581.262,"text":"好 謝謝蔡總統很清楚的說明立場那陳組織長請表達一下意見好嗎大家現在都眼巴巴看著你你講完之後我們三個黨團要用休息時間來開始進行討論 請"},{"start":4584.815,"end":4599.459,"text":"院長還有各位總召還有各位那個委員好那我們這裡是針對立法院115年度總預算案的一個說明那112年度沒有審議通過他有2992億不能動之那新興有1017億那在那個"},{"start":4608.061,"end":4630.916,"text":"就計劃延續的部分有1805億還有第一預備金第二預備金有170億那雖然立法院有先行同意動之718億但是因為他人據高度不確定性如果說同意暫時動之那行政部門將來有所刪減那就會有所顧慮所以立法院"},{"start":4631.976,"end":4658.843,"text":"這個部分沒有同意動資的2274億裡面呢我們有包括就是國防部的一個裝備維修、油料等的一個籌補還有重大的一個交通建設等那再來再談到就是說我們沒有編列軍人待遇和警察人員條例的這個部分因為人事總署也有派代表來是不是要請他再補充但是我們就整個一個來講的話"},{"start":4661.083,"end":4678.454,"text":"這個部分因為它整個涉及到那個軍警交職並用的一個機關薪資結構整個失衡對公務人員退休補習也出現不合理的一個差別大意所以為了顧及不同公務人員之間的深厚和公平還有橫貧性所以我們針對這個部分暫時"},{"start":4680.575,"end":4696.077,"text":"我們等到釋憲的結果再來編列並不是不編列那我們也支持院裡面也支持就是說能夠盡量能夠把總預算來付為讓我們整個預算能夠順利進行 以上 謝謝主委長容我提醒你一下剛剛蔡"},{"start":4697.879,"end":4714.3,"text":"蔡其昌、蔡總召所提出的那個解決方案,提出一個主決議的方式,您站在主席立場,您的意見是什麼?因為這個非常關鍵,他提出一個solution,您有沒有意見?我們接下來再請人事總署發言,您對這一點,這個是非常關鍵的,請表達看法好嗎?"},{"start":4718.546,"end":4742.059,"text":"解決方案必須在院裡頭裡面來做一個裁定那本身的並不是說金額的問題,而是整個結構的一個問題所以這個部分還是請任總來做解釋因為這並不是說,所以我們整個是針對這個部分我們還是請那個是不是可以先行復違然後再來研擬方案,大家共同來研擬方案"},{"start":4743.307,"end":4766.781,"text":"我感覺到卓院長上身的感覺很多那種跟卓院長講的都如出一轍沒關係 那個請人事總書以及權序部要表達一下意見好嗎陳慶榮總召你稍待一下我們請行政部門報告完好嗎好 請我們張副人事長請院長各位委員大家好那人事總書這邊就是其實剛剛這個"},{"start":4769.13,"end":4783.889,"text":"蔡總召其實也講了很多,我們仁總署之前我們在委員會的時候,我們蘇仁長也是有特別強調,幫共同爭取應該有的權利,其實是我們自己本身的職責"},{"start":4786.943,"end":4796.651,"text":"就是之前剛剛講的兩個條例因為行政院已經在釋憲當中當然最後會尊重這個憲法法庭的這個決定那該變的預算就應該要變那在"},{"start":4803.654,"end":4832.814,"text":"這個時刻我們還是會建議總預算先讓他復為蔡總剛剛說明的行政院如果有行政院相關的部會一般公務員的預算是我們人總處我們也一直在研擬我們之前也有講我們也在蒐集各種財經的指標我們方案也一直在研擬我們會按照正規的程序我們會提到行政院"},{"start":4834.835,"end":4852.969,"text":"對全面性的公務員的待遇 軍公教的待遇的調整的部分我們會處理在軍人跟警消的部分 我跟大家報告就是從105年到現在 軍人的部分其實已經年增預算大概210億光去年"},{"start":4856.471,"end":4871.938,"text":"光去年各種包括志願役的佳績包括其他各種類型的戰鬥佳績或者是電針佳績等等這些其實也增加了170.9億那是年增的預算"},{"start":4872.538,"end":4894.986,"text":"那警校的部分大家當然也都很清楚,因為各黨派的委員其實都很關心嘛那現在最近各地方政府也都有一直有在對外說明就是行政院這邊其實三月的時候已經核定了這個警察的這個繁重勤務的加成包括刑事加成都調高,包括消防的這個危險加成也都調高"},{"start":4897.948,"end":4900.734,"text":"總計大概一年會增加31億的經費年度就會增加31億的經費那其他各種類型的"},{"start":4908.179,"end":4933.58,"text":"淨彩的需要等等的其實包括工程人員包括這個學校老師等等其實我們各種不同的類別也都在持續在做這個調心的一個動作那如果今天大家有共識把總預算復違那接下來我們也會跟行政院各部會對這個公務員的這個薪資的調整的部分"},{"start":4934.381,"end":4962.586,"text":"能夠按照我們一般的程序來做處理 以上好 謝謝張副任市長我們請全序部的黃市長請表達一點 謝謝院長 各位委員全序部在這個案子跟我們部裡有關的就是警察條例的修正那我們是負責警察條例修正之後退休警消人員月退休金所得的差額的審定"},{"start":4963.286,"end":4992.706,"text":"那將近有四萬件要重新審定的部分我們全區部已經完成這些退休警消人員四萬件的重新審定那重新審定之後因為有一些退休金所得替代率的差額因為他是依照警察條例來的所以就是警察條例也寫說是行政院這邊編列預算來支應這個差額的部分那這個部分因為涉及預算的編列我們全區部就尊重行政院的權責以上報告"},{"start":4999.208,"end":5021.456,"text":"我剛剛有表達今天剛剛我聽到我們民進黨蔡其昌總召的發言如果剛剛他的發言內容是由行政院院長還是院本部的出席人員的發言跟我們蔡其昌總召發言是一致的"},{"start":5022.421,"end":5041.833,"text":"我覺得今天韓院長就跟我們台灣民眾黨國民黨一樣我們非常尊重院長大家一起願意來解決預算的這樣的一個僵局我們今天看到的剛剛包括我們全序部也提了主席總長也講了"},{"start":5046.007,"end":5061.44,"text":"718億的新增計畫新型的預算立法院已經三讀通過請行政院可以來執行土地總署也把公文都給各行政單位了"},{"start":5062.731,"end":5084.092,"text":"但是行政院院長不同意之用 不同意之用今天如果行政院院長還是行政院的代表在這裡說我們有什麼方案可以來趕快解決 趕快來處理讓民眾需要的TPAS這些"},{"start":5085.925,"end":5099.554,"text":"防水這些災害必須要緊急使用的這些預算可以來先行使用我想今天主席總書在這裡他都沒辦法決定能不能用了"},{"start":5100.629,"end":5118.959,"text":"我相信蔡奇昌總召我們的民進黨也沒辦法決定說可以用不可以用那今天行政院派人出席整個這個協商包括剛剛我們全序部所提我們的這個警校這個"},{"start":5122,"end":5148.099,"text":"所得替代重新審定他們也完成這個查爾德審定了那要不要變預算要不要做假預算來編列也不是全系不可以決定的也不是今天在場的主席總長可以決定的行政院呢行政院呢行政院長行政院的代表呢我們今天要來共同解決預算的僵局"},{"start":5149.659,"end":5167.712,"text":"我講得很難聽,行政院就跟我們立法院洗一眼啊,他連派員都不用啊院長,我們很尊重你,我們都願意一起來解決這樣的僵局但是行政院不出席,我覺得院長先休息我們討論一下,好不好"},{"start":5170.882,"end":5185.005,"text":"補充介紹一下除了黨團幹部之外有陳永康委員、桃園選區劉許廷委員、林柱英委員、嘉義選區陳冠廷委員一起來參加現在黨團幹部要二輪發言請稍微等一下,麻煩你再等"},{"start":5187.876,"end":5202.623,"text":"我只是回應一下他就好了 簡單 簡單這個沒問題那個青龍總召 跟你報告一下 也跟你做個回應這個院長的開會通知裡面 我們都很尊重院長"},{"start":5203.083,"end":5223.944,"text":"那院長的開會通知裡面是沒有行政院啦這一點跟你說明一下啦因為你一直罵我就一直替院長感到擔心因為看起來你都箭頭都指向他因為沒有啊不是行政院不來啦你看那個列席的單位裡面就是依照院長的指示該來的人都來了那第二件事情我也跟你講如果說剛剛我講的"},{"start":5226.468,"end":5256.028,"text":"青龍總召是同意的那會後我可以請行政院跟你打個電話來證明說是不是我在這裡說的這樣遵守啦這樣這兩項我先給你說明說明一下啦那第三個718億也就是我們立法院決議的先行動之新興計畫挑新興計畫部分出來湊起來叫718億可以先行之用如果總預算大家今天協商願意付尾"},{"start":5256.769,"end":5264.809,"text":"那這718億在星期五的時候 民進黨黨也會提議 提一個案子這個提案子就是 就是"},{"start":5266.007,"end":5291.715,"text":"要再寫明行政院未來用這個718億的時候我們不會刪啦這個邏輯大家就清楚知道說為什麼行政院不敢用原因就是因為我們通過了之後事實上總預算還沒有審我們只是叫他先用那他到底要用多少譬如說我們說718億那你用那結果他真的把718億全部用完了"},{"start":5292.421,"end":5309.828,"text":"那回過頭來我們有一天要審預算的時候我們把人家刪了30億那請問一下我們並沒有通過718我們是718再減30那請問一下那短差的30億誰要來負責所以公務同仁他不敢違法嘛所以我再一次跟"},{"start":5311.048,"end":5338.18,"text":"這個青龍總召表示啦 喔 抱歉 我跟你說明一下不是要跟你挑戰嘛 不是 我想說 大家都可以照這個規矩啦啊 大家如果同意附會 禮拜五我們就可以提嘛我們就可以提一個 再提一個主決議就是說 後來我們不會 不會去刪減這個那 行政院也同意 它就可以馬上用 它就可以馬上用所以呢 我今天很誠意的來跟大家拜託啦希望說 能夠損失啦 這樣 好不好 喔 謝謝好 謝謝 蘇貞雄署長您請發言"},{"start":5340.481,"end":5367.275,"text":"謝謝院長還有各黨團的代表齁其實我們今天在這個地方在講這個總預算啦希望趕快讓它復違喔所以大家也知道啦社會對我們認為不合理啦現在不想賠你知不知道這個史無前例嘛台灣民眾黨我是認為啦因為你們比較新興的一個政黨啦你們講這個理由我是認為不通啦為什麼會認為不通你跟你跟這個國民黨"},{"start":5368.991,"end":5392.844,"text":"你們差不多公開的理由就是才會說軍人跟警消加薪通過案所以行政院沒變理算所以總理選你們比重嘛青龍總統應該你們這意思才會是這樣嘛中國國民黨我看這個地方比較資深就副分子委員副分子委第五屆跟第七屆"},{"start":5394.212,"end":5406.401,"text":"那時候差不多是 阿扁這樣接近了 地北地高很可惜了我們兩個都要交錯 地北去到地高 那時候就跑去做館長我們再交錯的時候 我們是10跟11 各位你把它想想看"},{"start":5411.98,"end":5440.603,"text":"我為什麼說他史無前例啊等於說執政的他有執政的責任那在野的其實他也有他的角色立法院重不重要他太重要了全國所有的國政立法委員都可以表示他的一個意見可是是不是到最後全部都是立法院可以來做決定這個就有問號了我為什麼講說執政者有他的有他的責任在野黨有他的一個角色"},{"start":5442.106,"end":5446.27,"text":"韓院長他選過總統他以後也有可能選總統也有可能動選喔這不要跟他吵喔我是看他很武的你知道嗎但是有一個重點喔"},{"start":5453.761,"end":5473.973,"text":"沒有沒有有一個重點喔韓國瑜院長如果你今天當總統的話我如果是在野黨的話我就很簡單我就碼著每一張你韓國瑜在當競選總統的時候韓國瑜院長韓總統我叫你比較聰明你以前在選舉的時候你開過什麼支票你有十張支票我就是要求你來兌現這個我叫做在野黨來監督你"},{"start":5479.738,"end":5490.121,"text":"我總不能想說 二人一樣啊我看一看 咱這人算不少咧我插手在韓國瑜那裡去動損 咱就連續開20張韓國瑜院長 我們這20張支票 你要來兌現你要從台中給我弄一條高速鐵路 或者什麼樣的一個重大建設這全部都不在你的競選支票裡面的"},{"start":5506.567,"end":5529.915,"text":"就是說 國民兩黨現在就是一口氣給人家打 可不可以可以 但沒有決定權啦 沒有決定權啦所以 蔡七章總召剛提到的就是說 你的立法院去增加行政院的支出如果行政院主動 後來他覺得要賣他來提出 那我覺得可以喔"},{"start":5531.053,"end":5557.582,"text":"所以今天其實大家都有釋出善意啦有釋出善意的不用過度來大家這樣攻防我講話一向都不太好聽啦但是我是覺得我講話都還算講道理啦各位你把它想想看嘛每一個政黨在執政的時候他都有照顧國民黨在執政的時候有沒有照顧軍人跟警察也有不會說沒有人家馬英九八年執政的時候也照顧過一次3%"},{"start":5561.209,"end":5568.11,"text":"要不要給他拍手 當然要給他拍手那從蔡英文到賴清德這十年裡面四次 十四趴"},{"start":5569.181,"end":5582.21,"text":"幅度還是比國民黨多這個是代表什麼意思這個也不會說 如果國民黨在執政的時候立法院突然又開出好幾張支票說來來來 國民黨政府 馬英九總統你國民要加多少 經銷要加多少我相信執政者他也會覺得為難"},{"start":5592.256,"end":5608.579,"text":"就是執政黨有他的角色 那國會當然有國會的一個角色那去對所有的各個族群也好 各類的公職也好 公務人員也好或者人民來做更加的一個照顧 那是應該"},{"start":5609.68,"end":5635.796,"text":"但問題是說立法院可不可以定制定一個法律說所有的公務人員你們太辛苦了你們每一個人一個月加薪20萬哇嘻啊那這樣通過這樣的一個法律的話行政院長 行政院要不要買單要不要買單如果立法院今天通過的是所有的公務人員從委任開始或者說認為說是減任的實在是太辛苦了連莊獎金"},{"start":5640.635,"end":5664.388,"text":"法定以後變成是六個月 立法院可不可以立這樣的法立出來以後 現在你們說沒有照我的話去做的話我所有的總預算我連副委都不給你副委你們這叫做什麼 這酸酥料想要自己當家啦這個讓人很為難啦 每一個政黨都有機會執政啊你們台灣民眾黨你們太沒氣魄了"},{"start":5665.768,"end":5672.951,"text":"你們真的以為你們只有80而已嗎?你們沒有去票,你們在那裡亂衝嘛!你們自己衝到縮矮嘛!你們才比較大氣欸!說你們現在民進黨是來請自己去執政?我們知道啊,我們給你監督就好了,看你的支票,你有票票嗎?你們現在不是,你們現在給你酸書,你們被寫,你們要做勞動的?"},{"start":5684.776,"end":5694.905,"text":"你們就沒有機會做勞動,你們就靠國民黨,就這樣子而已嘛我講難聽就是這樣子而已,這樣賣,這樣你們永遠不會執行老百姓覺得你們這個來亂的而已啊是,是發揮關鍵的力量沒錯,但是那是關鍵破壞的力量那中國國民黨,我倒認為說照顧警察、警消這個部分,我認為那個金額不大"},{"start":5708.8,"end":5734.738,"text":"本席認為那個金額不當但是軍人的部分是大家再來討論看看所以要來增加對軍人的照顧的部分我們再想一下說對他照顧不夠請顧理事長 國防部長再來討論一下再來增加那這個才談的基礎嘛那也是國防部也是行政院自己來發動嘛不是你想說要安裝就安裝這也覺得把立法委員膨脹得太高啦"},{"start":5735.558,"end":5751.552,"text":"立法院我再講一次所有國家涉及到預算的立法院都可以管立法院都可以表示意見但不是做最後的那個做我來主張要怎麼樣行政它有它的一個主動性那立法委員說我們在這裡做這個的話你會解釋了半天啦你說沒有啦"},{"start":5756.196,"end":5763.664,"text":"那種預算沒過 都不會延宕老百姓的啦你看TPAS啦 治水啦 什麼啦我們新興預算 我先給他 覺得很重要的我們國民黨跟台灣民眾黨我們就先在立法院再提個案 決議給他過了不過有個問題 你那是一個民意燒到你們的屁股上啦何必這麼的一個迂迴呢"},{"start":5776.596,"end":5796.007,"text":"我們就大大風風 要貼老闆寫做事情 我們很大風嘛要打水的 要還是說民生真的會用到的總預算誰不會知道說它是一本的總預算你沒有副委 你說沒關係 副委你一直開就好那你剩下那兩千兩百億你怎麼辦那你怎麼辦所以我本席倒是認為 我跟院長這樣的一個建議就是大家都貼一個人"},{"start":5805.373,"end":5813.16,"text":"國家大家的啦,醫療大家都有機會接種啦,這就史無前例的醫療就不要再發生這個事情醫療有機會啊,不然你跟國民黨會比較拚命咧,運氣比較好,不然你跟一家台灣民眾黨去執政啊什麼人來用這個補,我怎麼替你趕走,那裡沒有你,有啊,有天"},{"start":5826.337,"end":5851.849,"text":"民進黨就算輸 算輸台灣民眾黨 台灣民眾黨在當家啊我們就用一些法律弄一些你們去當選總統的時候沒有提過的政見來幫你們做決定這哪通啊 算輸啦 要這麼老大那這個我是覺得 這個可能大家再想一下啦 好不好好 謝謝莊教授的發言那個 林耀廷我知道 你稍微等一下那我先見一下 我們就休息十分鐘大家來溝通一下"},{"start":5854.029,"end":5856.812,"text":"副總召 國民黨團還有簽議事發言 國民黨團請發言這個謝謝院長我看今天這個還是淪為雞同雞講我們人是坐在這一排 我是人所以我現在是聽不太懂 連我第幾屆都拿出來講"},{"start":5881.653,"end":5909.806,"text":"我想今天我們經過陳水扁的年代現在開始有點懷念了跟賴清德比起來真的是值得懷念當時雖然嘲笑也大但是在立法院三讀通過所謂民進黨所說的增加預算的提案在扁政府任內的八年通通執行了尊重國會三讀通過通通都執行"},{"start":5911.616,"end":5938.135,"text":"大家都是有商有量不是到現在這個政權到現在賴清德總統從來沒有跟我們有任何一次的協商包括跟在野黨的黨主席還是政黨從不協商所以我們現在真的很好奇齁這個新興計畫我覺得今天真的是聽起來本席實在不太想講話但是今天代表國民黨都是您念到我們國民黨上來我們不得不講齁"},{"start":5940.089,"end":5966.781,"text":"這個新計畫718例包括T-BUS等等的立法院都三讀通過完全依照預算法已經拿出來通過了我今天很意外的是這個審計突然尊重立法院我們審計長突然尊重立法院他說主計突然尊重立法院我很驚訝耶主計長你什麼時候尊重過立法院"},{"start":5968.104,"end":5991.635,"text":"記得說 哇 我們這個沒有做決議萬一到時候刪除怎麼辦 已經用了你還怕我們 還怕我們會刪除 所以不敢用立法院通過你都可以不編 還要怕我們不敢用那真的是 真的是 真的是雞同雞講的在講什麼那更重要的是"},{"start":5992.871,"end":6008.502,"text":"真的會不會刪掉你不能用嗎我們營業基金非營業基金哪一次審查不是說他們用完了同樣的場景都做在這裡啊哪一年不是這樣啊不是都給用了嗎那我說現在踢趴子我不敢用"},{"start":6010.151,"end":6037.377,"text":"所以都同樣的場景我們覺得真的是很奇怪更不要講2016到2024八成的案子都是碾壓通過的院外表決通過所以說剛剛說現在不是立法院表決就有用那過去不是立法院表決就有用嗎所以我們在這裡要特別強調我們這邊的協商不要再提憲法法庭五個人可以開會15個大法官的"},{"start":6038.41,"end":6066.314,"text":"大法大法庭會議五個人可以開會可以做決議另外三個大法官在外面罵他們違法開會這樣的憲法法庭在哪一個民主是全世界民主國家是經得起考驗這種東西還是一個合憲的法庭還要把國會的事情要推到所謂這種五人憲法法庭我們特別要強調一下為什麼"},{"start":6067.83,"end":6088.637,"text":"我們受到這麼多的工具的天天的重傷抹黑我們還是在忍耐因為我們的堅持是必須為這個國家留財我們必須要忍耐的我們今天強調的這三件我們主計都不編行政院都不編的立法院通過的公教停侃"},{"start":6091.448,"end":6117.324,"text":"物價長成什麼樣子這些一生奉獻給國家的人包括在座的各位政務官以外的事務官都是終身奉獻給國家的然後突然有一天告訴你我們沒有信賴保護原則我們讓你沒有辦法生活當一流的人都不進入國家來服務的時候三流的人進入國家"},{"start":6119.744,"end":6146.816,"text":"行政體系 這就是三流的政府所以這個要停侃 物價到底漲了多少七年了四年就應該調整了結果沒有 現在七年了再過來講軍人加薪我們的軍購案 天價軍購不斷的疊加但職業軍人的援援明顯不足三萬五千三起薪職業軍人要上戰場養家活口我們也是順應軍人不斷的反應"},{"start":6150.043,"end":6175.605,"text":"所以必須 三萬五千三所以我們必須要讓軍人能夠沒有後顧之憂能夠安家 能夠保護台灣這個本來就應該要來珍惜我們的軍人而且更重要的是買了這麼多武器我們沒有足夠 足夠的專業的軍人來操作也是恍然啊"},{"start":6177.216,"end":6199.569,"text":"現在根本 根本 邊線比根本就不足嘛買這麼多武器有多少人可以操作有多少專業的軍人更不要講警消這些都是最危險的工作上最危險的這些警消退休人員我們希望 如果他們能夠安養終老也會為國家"},{"start":6201.338,"end":6229.02,"text":"爭取更多人才願意投入我們政府所以給他有一套比較好的比較好的一個完整的退休計畫我想啊這個是我們該做的事情不過在這裡還是要強調當然在這裡有各個政黨不同的立場各自表述我可以講自己政黨的立場沒有問題但是呢我還是希望啊"},{"start":6230.927,"end":6258.573,"text":"這個韓院長既然已經出面了我想各個政黨還是能夠在可能 盡可能協調之下的情況之下讓整個國家預算可以來執行也希望 也希望包括主計長在內這些行政官員能夠依法行政能夠依法行政我想這個就是我們大家共同的期待也希望今天大家能夠盡量圓滿 好不好"},{"start":6259.906,"end":6269.222,"text":"好 謝謝我們休息十分鐘大家討論一下休息完畢之後劉雪婷委員如果有什麼意見我們到時候再說好不好因為第一階段都是黨團發言好 休息一下"},{"start":7252.532,"end":7277.402,"text":"謝謝各位黨團幹部非常感謝也謝謝各位行政官員謝謝啊那麼經過溝通之後目前達成兩項共識我來宣讀一下各黨團幹部跟各位行政列席的官員請大家仔細聆聽一為求行政立法和諧及順利將總預算案附為審查我把這個兩個"},{"start":7280.373,"end":7281.554,"text":"對不起,紙張太多了,抱歉抱歉"},{"start":7299.444,"end":7313.64,"text":"資料太多各黨團同意115年度總預算案附委事宜要求行政立法互動和諧同意要點如下一行政院應該於115年度總預算案附委後半年內"},{"start":7314.821,"end":7330.676,"text":"提出有關軍人待遇條例及警察人員人事條例之相關修正案及其他有關軍公教保障措施以展現回應立法保障軍公教權益之意旨"},{"start":7331.497,"end":7352.047,"text":"二令針對總運算案完成審查之前立法院已通過之新興計劃動之案行政院應該予以立刻先行執行立法院於審議上開新興計劃時同意如數照列免於凍結請問這兩點各位黨團幹部有沒有寶貴的意見"},{"start":7355.919,"end":7364.346,"text":"如果沒有請簽署好嗎那接下來陳金榮總召想要發言好請那劉許廷委員請準備我們先簽署好不好謝謝"},{"start":7366.372,"end":7385.77,"text":"好 謝謝院長的用心 真的我們也感受到我們韓院長為了我們總預算案的一個用心所以我們台灣民眾黨黨團也表達他的支持那在這裡 我還是要鄭重的跟民進黨黨團表示"},{"start":7388.012,"end":7405.979,"text":"今天我們一直談的我們所謂的軍人待遇條例警察人員人事條例我們立法院三讀通過的這樣的案子行政院視為是違憲那在這裡我還是要重申"},{"start":7407.706,"end":7434.747,"text":"預算案跟法律案不同預算案我們立法院不得作為增加預算之決議法律案我們立法院本身就有提案之權那我在這邊就舉一個簡單的例子如果立法院不能提案增加預算那我們腦中津貼我們來增加腦中津貼的預算怎麼會有我們立法院來增加"},{"start":7436.513,"end":7461.741,"text":"另外包括我們議員主理會的專家也是由我們立法院來提案所以所謂違憲跟不違憲我們應該法律案跟預算案要來說明清楚所以我們今天才會主張說我們行政院應該針對我們已經立法院三讀通過的"},{"start":7465.067,"end":7475.727,"text":"這個軍人待遇條例 警察人員人事條例這邊要來以執行那當然今天在韓院長的主持協商之下行政院"},{"start":7477.443,"end":7495.095,"text":"也同意在半年內也要提出這樣相關的一個保障軍公教的一個措施來回應我們立法院也回應台灣民眾黨立法保障軍公教權益的意志為我們總計算能夠順利互為"},{"start":7497.496,"end":7516.778,"text":"為了我們還是能夠來保障軍公教的權益所以我們也同意我們韓院長的一個協商的結果那也在這邊邀請我們民進黨黨團也要確定行政院能夠依我們的一個協商的要點來執行"},{"start":7518.612,"end":7543.722,"text":"好 謝謝陳青龍總統 林育晴委員請發言 簡短扼壓 謝謝謝謝主席 今天針對協商結論 因為這個結果叫政治處理所以本席不表示任何意義 我們當然就配合黨團的決議來做處理但我想幾個道理還是要講清楚啦第一個 這個我們在 之所以這個預算僵局會產生當然就是因為立法院三讀通過的法案沒有被合理的執行我想這違反了法治國的原則跟精神這個行政院當然可以認為它有違憲之餘"},{"start":7544.642,"end":7559.373,"text":"但是即便你要送去釋憲之前你也是應該先執行再釋憲我想這是法治國依法行政的基本原則在場都沒有人可以直接認定行政院有資格來判斷因為是違憲而不執行我想這個道理還是要說清楚這核心序名第二個"},{"start":7560.093,"end":7580.464,"text":"這談到雖然今天是用政治處理的方式來解決這件事情但是我也必須要講我們立法院修正這麼多的法案很多修正的法案就會影響國家政策影響國家政策的時候當然就會造成政府開支的改變如果按照今天民進黨黨團所主張的凡是有政府開支增加的時候都一定要有行政院的版本作為基礎的話"},{"start":7581.485,"end":7604.825,"text":"那我覺得那是變相閹割立法院提案的權利我覺得這件事大家應該要嚴肅看待我再說一次今天的協商結論叫政治處理但不表示我們是同意用這樣子的精神未來去處理立法院的事物我想這會立下一個不太好的範例所以我想這件事情也是要講清楚立法院有立法院提案的權利提案三讀通過當然因為這一段時間"},{"start":7605.686,"end":7630.777,"text":"這個嘲笑野大沒有辦法有效溝通要表決很多東西很困難但這不表示立法院應該自我閹割我覺得這是各黨各派都應該要有的這個觀念那第三這剛剛我們莊惠雄幹事長今天這個散播方法散播愛當然是很好的但是我必須要講這個過去的經驗嘲笑野大是一個很重要大家要務實考量的事情嘛今天大家的意見不一樣但是國會在野黨是多數"},{"start":7631.377,"end":7646.943,"text":"未來大家就是應該好好協商去達成共識我覺得這當然是一個很好的方法但是如果不能達成共識表決通過的也應該要尊重多數我想這樣的精神還是要被標舉的所以花一點點時間我覺得總是要把道理說個明白感謝主席給我時間 謝謝好 謝謝林委員"},{"start":7648.664,"end":7672.432,"text":"那各位黨團幹部各位列席的官員我想我今天宣讀一下我們立法院黨團協商的結論時間115年4月15號星期三下午3點半地點紅樓302會議室決定事項一各黨團同意4月21號星期二邀請行政院院長、主計長、財政部長列席報告115年度中央政府總預算案編制經過並備諮詢"},{"start":7674.873,"end":7701.745,"text":"含志願役軍人加薪及錦銷退休金等預算編制處理情形並與報告執訊人數由國民黨團推派五位民進黨團推派五位台灣民眾黨團推派一位進行執訊順序依例授權議事處進行處理名單於4月20日星期一中午12點前送交議事處會診議案詢答完畢後即交審查"},{"start":7703.123,"end":7731.854,"text":"各黨團同意不提出復議當次會議不處理臨時提案令台灣民眾黨團針對一百一十五年度中央政府總預算案之復議案予以撤回二請財政委會四月十六號星期四下午五點前將總預算案審查日程及分配表送交議事處以例四月十七號星期五院會報告三各黨團同意針對一百一十五年度總預算復委事宜邀"},{"start":7732.754,"end":7758.153,"text":"要求行政院立法為求行政立法互動和諧同意要點如下小一行政院應於一百一十五年度總預算案附委後六個月之內提出有關軍人待遇條例及警察人員人事條例之相關修正案及其他有關軍公教保障措施以展現回應立法院保障軍公教權益之意旨小二"},{"start":7759.093,"end":7774.056,"text":"另針對總預算案完成審查之前立法院已經通過新興計劃動之案行政院應該予以立刻先行執行立法院與審議上開新興計劃時同意如數照列並免於凍結請問各黨團幹部有沒有寶貴意見沒有寶貴意見麻煩請簽署謝謝我們開始好"},{"start":7786.963,"end":7812.615,"text":"我們開始進入第二案現在我們協商結論的簽字之中我們要進行第二案請幕僚跟行政官員就位我們開始第二案協商簽這一張真是不容易啊"},{"start":7835.033,"end":7837.015,"text":"謝謝各位練習官員 謝謝大家辛苦了 不好意思"},{"start":7855.077,"end":7879.397,"text":"好 謝謝各位列席官員請坐好 謝謝各位列席官員請坐退席的官員也請加快速度有寶貴的時間好 謝謝 謝謝"},{"start":7893.8,"end":7918.246,"text":"好 謝謝跟各位黨團幹部報告今天我們列席的有國防部顧部長 歡迎戰略更化師黃師長好 歡迎法律師黃吳師長好 歡迎中山科學研究院理院長好 歡迎您採購室趙主任好 謝謝 歡迎我們財政部國庫署陳署長好 歡迎財政部"},{"start":7922.847,"end":7942.727,"text":"行政院副主席長 蔡副主席長 歡迎您經濟部 產業發展署的周副署長 歡迎法國部料參事 歡迎審計部 林副審計長 歡迎林副審這麼年輕啊數位部 周副署長"},{"start":7944.76,"end":7956.648,"text":"更年輕衛福部政事長國家科學及技術委員會 郭副處長行政公共工程委員會 謝處長"},{"start":7967.82,"end":7985.048,"text":"1.我們今天的黨團協商要行政院罕見審議強化防衛任性及不對稱戰力計畫採購特別條例草案2.台灣民眾黨團凝聚保衛國家安全及強化不對稱戰力計畫採購特別條例草案3.國民黨團凝聚強化國防及對美軍事採購特別條例草案等三案"},{"start":7993.092,"end":8002.576,"text":"這三案經本院外交國防財政兩委會聯席已經審查完略並決議交由黨團協商115年4月9日上週四經過民進黨黨團總召由陳冠廷召集委員組織協商未能獲得共識在案"},{"start":8013.291,"end":8032.566,"text":"現在我們開始並案協商保留協商的部分有1.法律名稱2.保留條文有行政院提案第一條第三條至第七條2.台灣民眾黨團體第一條第三條至第八條3.國民黨團體第一條第四條至第九條3.以及附帶決議一項請各位參閱我們"},{"start":8034.948,"end":8057.24,"text":"會議桌上的議案關係文書及審查報告以及條文對照表與會黨團如果有修正動議及有或機關有建議內容請提出書面資料我們現場要來印發接下來我們要依照條文對照表上保留的部分繼續進行協商我首先我先請陳冠廷召集委員你先剪短扼要的報告一下好嗎好謝謝"},{"start":8059.07,"end":8073.907,"text":"好 謝謝院長還有我們在野黨的委員們大家午安其實我們這一次的特別條例裡面我們有共識的其實蠻少的大概除了主管機關跟國防部之外在就程序上面而已"},{"start":8074.668,"end":8089.25,"text":"那我是希望說今天至少我們有一個可以整理出一個方向那我們知道這一次整體來說就是軍購商購跟委制那軍購上面我們上一次在審理的時候包含徐曉新委員"},{"start":8091.092,"end":8104.298,"text":"應該林委員也有談到就是有一些條有一些文字你們會帶為黨團裡面去討論那其中包含就是施行的施行期間那施行期間其實我們跟民眾黨的部分都是提到說到122年12月31日因為這是"},{"start":8106.559,"end":8124.18,"text":"有辦法達到的但是在國民黨的部分是到117年12月31日這個好像是在技術上面是比較沒有辦法達到的所以這個部分我們希望今天能夠就這個實質的問題來討論那第二個部分就是國防特別條例裡面的軍事採購的部分軍事採購的裡面"},{"start":8126.002,"end":8150.108,"text":"在國民黨的第八條裡面它是提出來說要主管機關得債刑提出強化國防及對美軍事採購的第二階段特別條例那我們的立場是希望說不要分兩階段這樣我怕會還不積極而是直接在這一次的條例裡面就把它包括進來那我們是希望說至少這兩條上面當然我們還有包含甚至連特別條例的名稱還有這個"},{"start":8153.91,"end":8178.471,"text":"這個對美採購還是對其他國家採購等等一開始是有一些討論但是我認為說比較重中之重的我們可能或許會有今天可能會有一些初步共識的還是先從這兩條開始那之後我們就可以慢慢的進入到商購商購的部分我們知道說在野黨是希望說盡量是把它變成年度預算但我們是希望說這次把它放到這個特別條例裡面那不過沒關係我們先從軍購的部分是不是先開始來做討論"},{"start":8181.269,"end":8200.326,"text":"謝謝陳昭吉委員、冠廷的寶貴發言那接下來我們請三個黨團要依序發言那個別委員、列席委員有意見的話再請隨時表達意見三個黨團發言完畢以後我們請行政部門開始發言完畢我們要開始進入審查首先我們請台灣民眾黨團請提案的您先發表發言好嗎?國民黨團請準備"},{"start":8202.401,"end":8218.544,"text":"好 這個我非常感謝剛剛那個官邸總召我們其實那個前幾個禮拜花了非常多的時間稍微啦我們花了兩天時間來討論這個事情不過沒有 這個沒有錯基本上我們對於很多的內容"},{"start":8220.485,"end":8244.47,"text":"我們也同意可以先從軍購這邊來著手就是那天大家協商完其實我在回黨部我們也做了一些商討不過我們還是覺得我們這邊需要國防部這邊也許給我們更多有利於我們做考慮的一些資料也許有助於我們對一些比較明顯的一些項目可以有一些共識"},{"start":8245.51,"end":8256.204,"text":"那我想今天希望我們能夠義中求同能夠共同求的一些共同的結論以上謝謝王嘉祥市議長接下來國民黨團請發言民進黨團請準備"},{"start":8260.945,"end":8288.037,"text":"謝謝院長我想其實國民黨其實一向都非常支持國防但是我們要支持就必要而且有可以買得到而且能夠正當形成戰力的對美軍購所以我們覺得嚴格的這個把關然後審查把監督的這個職責是我們立法委員必要的責任所以我們其實在乎的是就是說採購一定要非常的公開透明絕對不能急迫而且制度不能失守這就是國民黨"},{"start":8288.757,"end":8309.925,"text":"我們要這個特別預算的特別條例的這個最核心的一個立場那當然我想國民黨團不是這個我們目前大概那天在審查法案的時候其實我們針對一些部分我們都表達了充分的意見包括說我們的3800億加N其實就是希望說能夠把未來可能對美"},{"start":8313.647,"end":8336.167,"text":"軍購的部分美國會提供OA的部分我們先把它預放進去那未來如果當美國提供軍購的發價出來的時候我們就可以馬上能夠編列預算那也可以達到實際上的一個效果所以在這邊我想這個部分其實我們非常的支持國防那也希望說今天能夠達到一個共識大家能夠往這個"},{"start":8338.188,"end":8360.453,"text":"怎麼樣能夠有把關嚴格而且不會延伸到未來因為其實針對軍購的部分我們也擔心說會不會有以前這樣子的這個不管是那個拉法葉案相關延伸的相關的問題所以針對這個部分我們覺得應該是要把這個商購的部分要放入到一般的年度預算比較不會有太大的疑慮謝謝"},{"start":8361.613,"end":8384.68,"text":"好 謝謝許議員發言 接下來請莊銳雄委員請發言謝謝院長 還有我們所有的協商的代表其實整個軍購 大家講真話啦不用在那裡說那些 如果要審軍購條例那你們真正的餘力到底是什麼啦因為台灣民眾可能剛才說希望提供更多的資料聽起來 第一天聽立法院說話都覺得很合理啦"},{"start":8390.64,"end":8402.049,"text":"你們這個都說得已經沒人說了 什麼都說不出來了3月5號大黨要副委我們這個軍購條例你們本來是你們聯手是連副委都不想讓他副委不是不想審喔"},{"start":8405.444,"end":8426.274,"text":"是連副委你都不愛?你現在說我要再加資料 好啊其實如果真的要審美書 講道理我是覺得都還好啦第一個 你說到底 其實行政院可以做什麼 七個條文而已嘛七個條文 我覺得國防外交委員會喔 大家聽到是都很好耶我就要給陳光霆額落一下 威斯康辛的學術"},{"start":8432.625,"end":8442.752,"text":"日本當怕替代黨的 這開玩笑 阿去留學 美國又留學日本的這聽頭感不錯 國民黨也不錯啊 民眾黨你們也不錯啊特別那些心肝壞 因為沒有心肝要過你不用擔心 你不用擔心這個條文真的你們國防外交委員會都不讀寫連那個草案名稱你們就有辦法寫到寫不出來"},{"start":8462.106,"end":8471.052,"text":"臺灣民眾黨跟民主政府我們宗教你不用跟我們懂我是看這個看得硬你知道嗎我先上廁所只有一個條例的名稱寵到這樣大家開花臺灣民眾黨跟民進黨差不多吧國民黨看看這第一條其實我看過你們的名稱其實要達到妥協達到一致不困難啦但是沒有什麼信嘛你們如果寵到三月的時候你們要開始去覆違"},{"start":8492.58,"end":8521.109,"text":"剛才過一條啦 主管機關叫國防部你們這會叫小學生手勢啦三棟都會叫小學生手勢啦你說這個看起來就知道說這個就是不想審所以當初連副委都不想副委那社會有沒有壓力 壓力來了就趕快審 審 審 審 審副董就給他全部都保留這樣出去了通過一個主管機關是國防部不然說軍過主管機關是內政部軍過主管機關是教育部那是不可能的事情啊"},{"start":8522.234,"end":8528.521,"text":"玩這一種 這個是對這個國家對我們整個身為立法委員的職責的一個不尊重"},{"start":8529.878,"end":8555.618,"text":"都不尊重那本席就是這樣認為啦我這樣認為啦剛剛國民黨跟台灣民政黨講了很多理由但那個都不是真正的理由啦那不是真正的理由啦你說要更多資料我說不對嘛你連副委都不讓他副委你前面都不會想到要資料怎麼突然現在想要更多資料這也不通啦七個條文其實很快全六個條文而已全六個條文而已就是說"},{"start":8558.22,"end":8573.632,"text":"大家各黨都大膽的講出來哪一些你不想要的你說我這個顧立雄這個國防部長我看他很討厭我想刪他三千億三千億你也可以啊你也跟他講出哪一個部分你是認為你說1.251.25兆"},{"start":8577.096,"end":8597.268,"text":"你就認為哪一些是不對的我們講給社會大眾聽說這個民進黨在執政的武器亂買這個不應該買的你也買那哪一些你認為不應該的你覺得不是因為我有了三千五就開始來看 看什麼看我們還敢擋不擋預算我看可能軍購來看的話 可能這樣來弄的話比較難去說服啦剛才說的你們台灣民眾黨我現在也要說一下國民黨"},{"start":8608.47,"end":8626.684,"text":"你們主席去跟習近平也要回廖野啦去完廖野啦也讓你們等這麼久啦當鄭麗文說要到中國去的時候我當初就跟大家預測了啦我就說鄭麗文沒有從中國跟習近平見完面回來以後連審都不會審啦我以為已經握完手了 回來了總要 總要大家好好來審啦三千五位齁"},{"start":8635.734,"end":8661.821,"text":"差不多到中國比較好的主張三千五啦你們國民黨裡面啦那你們的八千五的 差不多住在中部的啦住在比較中部的差不多主張八千多的啦那你如果說對整個國家都覺得不錯 都要防護的就像我們的一天二五兆的啦那三個有沒有道理講清楚都可以有道理啊但是我是覺得我們來做一個決定啦 因為我們做一個決定"},{"start":8662.881,"end":8681.369,"text":"就是前面都不是因為你沒有資料不是因為說你不了解 都不是前面是因為你們聯手不想審你們連讓他復違也都不讓他復違是這個原因 這個大家還是要講清楚但是身為執政黨的幹部我們也認為說"},{"start":8684.857,"end":8709.673,"text":"要對外的一個採購這錢都很大錢嘛可是不能浪費民脂民膏嘛要受到國會的監督至少在國會裡面必須要去透明這都合理啊這個都合理啊但問題就是說當我們覺得這是合理的時候那我們不要哪一些的時候也要講得合理啦好不容易喔總預算在院長的"},{"start":8711.274,"end":8717.776,"text":"剛剛的主持公立調和定內這樣通過了軍過我是覺得重中之重院長你相信你很注重國會外交你會想要帶大家來法國我也會說要怎麼去法國我去法國我如果去了人家會說你們在台灣為什麼那個軍過你們大家都連審都不想審"},{"start":8736.533,"end":8741.318,"text":"阿你們就敢跑出來玩 秋西郎我們要他去拜會 當作我們在外面 當作我們沒做事所以總預算案跟這個軍購 不是說我沒有把它綁在一起是說這個對國家是很重要外人來這樣問的時候 你不管是到法國啦 還是到哪一個國家去人家這樣問我們的國會議員的時候 院長你不覺得我們說不出來 很謙虛嗎"},{"start":8761.396,"end":8777.58,"text":"臺灣的這個政黨好爛喔七個條文而已 名稱也搞不定然後連那個主管機關 該國防部說這個還要討論說很怕把那個主管機關 規定到文化部去不會嘛 所以軍購條例 甘一定要做兩次說來 我先給你三千五 算完你要買完 再一次給你三千五"},{"start":8785.513,"end":8794.61,"text":"對於整個國家的一個建軍防衛能力的一個提升我看最有能力來做步劃的就是我們的國防部"},{"start":8796.994,"end":8802.138,"text":"民主進步黨 立法院黨團 零力跟國防部沒在一起我認為台灣民眾黨 應該你們也不敢講說我全台灣最懂國防 怎麼樣來提升戰力 部署哪些武器是你台灣民眾黨 你們最內行 我相信你們也不敢講那中國國民黨 你們再來講這一些的話 我相信你們也會值得汗顏啊"},{"start":8821.206,"end":8825.468,"text":"我覺得是一樣的,國家是大家的,今天我們可以,我們前陣子真的延宕太多了而且前面的延宕的理由都是不通,不是因為沒有資料,其實是因為大家彼此在政治上的攻防,難免,可是因為我們延宕的太久"},{"start":8842.957,"end":8847.419,"text":"不要說大家提升軍人待遇要照顧軍人照顧什麼結果連武器對整個國家的安全的一個條例連性都不需要這個可能會對我們國會來講的話對我們就變成會失職了啦以上謝謝莊院長你跟你講的話講得我們心情跟坐雲霄飛車一樣上上下下壓力很大國防部長 顧部長請簡單二要說明一下我們的開車精神查清"},{"start":8872.557,"end":8892.138,"text":"好,院長還有各位委員,我想關鍵在於我們現在要去格出一個條例跟預算的不同這個我還是一再的說明,我們現在條例就公布了版本,我想剛剛已經講了就是我們就是整個就七個條文"},{"start":8893.94,"end":8919.981,"text":"以民眾黨版本來看就是八個條文那麼國民黨版本就九個條文那所以條例跟預算不同那現在關鍵就在於說一個是第四條那第四條的我們就是提出我們七個要建構的能力項目這是我們的第四條那在民眾黨也是第四條那國民黨呢是第五條那"},{"start":8921.022,"end":8938.937,"text":"民眾黨跟國民黨團都將那個特定的那個採購的那個內容啊把它寫進去那事實上是將條例跟我們要採購的那個特定的案項其實是混淆了所以如"},{"start":8939.966,"end":8968.995,"text":"依照所有我們應該要訂的條例來跟預算案的不同來看的話那麼今天就是要看說各朝野黨團對第四條或者國民黨團的第五條我們要採購的這個項目我們行政院版所提出來的這個能力的這個部分有哪些能力的部分覺得是並不適宜擺在這個能力部分"},{"start":8970.287,"end":8978.981,"text":"那這樣才有討論的基礎而不是去討論那個具體要採購的案項因為具體要採購案項是要等到我們再提出預算的時候您可以就"},{"start":8980.305,"end":9007.203,"text":"立法院可以就那個具體案項可以決議不通過那這樣的我們就不能夠採購那個項目這是第一點那第二點當然另外金額的部分這是一個最高的上限的金額不代表這個所有的預算案進來之後都可以獲得支持因此可以達到這樣的一個金額但是我們行政院的版本還是堅持我們事實上在之前已經做過相關的專報"},{"start":9008.944,"end":9029.229,"text":"不管是機密的還是公開的已經將我們一照2500億所需要的籌購的每一個項目都做過報告如果今天有一些委員表示他沒有聽過這樣的專報的內容我們願意再來進行專報只是有一些涉及機敏的事項必須要"},{"start":9030.129,"end":9052.427,"text":"用機密專報的方式來進行那所以像第四條的這個項目也就是他的能力的建構搭配後面要要再放進來這個預算書表要不要同意才最後會決定最後通過的金額是多少嘛對不對所以我們今天是在討論條例所以"},{"start":9054.509,"end":9065.446,"text":"就麻煩各位就是說針對條例我們現在重點就是在於剛剛講的第四條的部分的哪些能力的建構大家覺得有"},{"start":9066.417,"end":9088.845,"text":"有什麼意見如果沒有意見的話我是覺得如果可以就這樣先就能力的部分建構這些七項的能力沒有意見的話那預算等到後續進來之後大家可以再來想審這個我想國防部的好謝謝顧部長的說明那各位黨團幹部我們就開始進入第一條好不好我們就開始進入法律名稱"},{"start":9090.151,"end":9110.011,"text":"那請各位黨團針對法律名稱行政院所提案的強化防衛韌性及不對稱戰力計畫採購特別條例有沒有意見好沒有意見我們第一條法律名稱照行政院版本我們通過啊好 林委員沒問題啊 有意見隨時不要急 林委員請表達一下請"},{"start":9112.028,"end":9135.906,"text":"哇 這個報告主席喔這個我還原一下當初在外交國防委員會大家討論的啦今天在這個黨團協商的場合大家可能是希望透過政治處理的方式加快相關的程序嘛因為我想這件事情不只是只有金額的問題它也有速度的問題嘛大家都希望這個東西可以趕快落板趕快開始來做執行嘛所以今天有 其實講白了這整包裡面大概就幾個爭點嘛"},{"start":9136.687,"end":9159.453,"text":"大概就是名稱大概就是金額還有執行的期程嘛剛剛這個陳冠廷委員有做說明其實我覺得可能要針對這幾項大家做一下討論比較容易達成共識啦要不然你這一條一條走其實跟國防外交委員會審查的時候一樣因為像第一條以名稱為例這個行政院就是說任性很重要所以我們要按照這個院版等等的說法台灣民眾黨講說我們講保衛國家安全跟不對稱戰力就已經涵蓋所有了"},{"start":9159.733,"end":9175.046,"text":"那我們的主張一直是我們要優先處理對美軍購嘛所以他既然是對美軍購我覺得也沒什麼好藏的就把對美軍購寫進去然後那一天光是這個名稱的條文在國防外交就搞一個多小時然後結論還是沒有意見沒有共識那今天也是一樣嘛"},{"start":9175.566,"end":9191.116,"text":"今天大抵上方向我們黨團的立場還是一樣我是覺得應該要先針對對美軍購的方式先來做處理其他不是不行但是我覺得要從長討論我順便藉這樣子的發言時間舉幾個例子這個很多時候不是說資料有沒有掉的問題我話說從頭啊這個案子"},{"start":9193.357,"end":9211.29,"text":"按照第一波發架數到的時間倒推啊因為美國也有一些相關的行政流程所以我們去做一下請教倒推其實在去年六月後來我問了國防部其實更早其實行政院就已經開始做研究跟規劃這當然都沒有問題但是如果大家都不認清楚現在的國會的生態跟狀況還有一個又一個的朝野僵局的話"},{"start":9212.091,"end":9241.233,"text":"然後你不提早溝通不提早處理然後你明明六月至少都有明確的目標開始往前走你都不講然後到11月的時候你也不是先跟國內社會溝通你跑去搞外媒投書然後回過頭來要內宣轉情了然後要求在黨一定要接受當然就會造成僵局嘛就已經很多僵局你多一個僵局所以才會出現那賴總統要不然來國會報告啊所以他就卡在那個地方其實耽誤了整體法案審查的問題嘛你就早一點溝通嘛再來我講"},{"start":9241.753,"end":9263.715,"text":"資料的提供 民眾長講的真的沒有道理嗎前一段時間外交國防委員會在針對最近這段時間的國防部的財務計畫的時候我提的資訊很清楚啊我說我們購買這麼多的軍備設備現在軍備設備跟維護館養的支出比例大概是1比1左右過去都是這個比例我現在大幅的增加了軍購採購的這樣子的量我維養的成本會不會跟著增加"},{"start":9264.435,"end":9292.134,"text":"換言之我未來要增加的豈止是這1.25兆的特別預算它會不會對我國家長線的財政造成一定的衝擊跟負擔總要有數字吧所以我請他們做了8年的財政規劃但我到現在我還沒收到資料啊所以我覺得中間還有本來就還有很多東西是可以被釐清的所以我想今天如果大家還是只是表達立場而沒有說我們今天暫時捐氣立場各黨都講說我們在哪些地方先願意讓步的時候那每一條每一條大家都還是各執一詞"},{"start":9293.055,"end":9300.287,"text":"結論也還會是沒有共識所以重上我想針對名稱因為沒有顯然沒有任何交集所以我們對名稱還是有堅持的以上"},{"start":9309.144,"end":9325.396,"text":"應該這樣講,我剛如果念大家對行政院那個名稱有沒有意見的時候,大家要提反對意見,那我們就開始進入討論嘛。反過來,那國民黨團如果提出來他們希望名稱變成對美軍事採購特別條例,那其他黨有沒有意見也可以提出來,所以我並不是說一定要。"},{"start":9326.457,"end":9339.922,"text":"直接這樣好像一意孤行這點我需要澄清一下立場第二個我也建議剛剛已經都非常多綜合性的討論情緒性發言我們就暫時降低回歸到理性拜託一下因為我們時間有限好不好好 發言人請準備"},{"start":9343.087,"end":9358.568,"text":"這個我去過外交國防委員會幾次那當然就是說我想大家在每一條上討論更多那以我對這個部分的理解我想對一般民眾來講大家已經越來越了解這一次的這個特別條例這個版本不是只有對美軍購"},{"start":9360.09,"end":9376.012,"text":"那部長也在總質詢的時候我也親自問他是一個很重要的系統升級因為要強化防衛韌性跟所謂的不對稱戰力因為台灣小中國大所以不對稱戰力很重要他是系統升級所以有一個台灣之盾"},{"start":9376.713,"end":9400.888,"text":"所以剛剛顧部長一直問大家說政院版的第三條哪一項覺得不好可以討論那國民黨跟民眾黨都只有針對軍購要什麼海馬士等等寫得太具體他說那個部分未來在預算提出的時候可以再討論那這個是一個條例所以我想軍購加上台灣之盾還有第三個"},{"start":9402.229,"end":9428.231,"text":"上次我有提到經濟學人都有提到台灣無人機的產業就是說潛力了那我們也看到相關的部分我們的無人機產業在這幾年發展得很快速已經可以賣到捷克、波蘭跟美國那經濟部提供的訊息我們也最近跟九國簽了MOU那所以它非常的重要是我們的不對稱戰力而且是防衛韌性"},{"start":9429.432,"end":9447.284,"text":"因為如果台灣沒有自產的時候那遇到一些緊急狀況的時候你就沒有一個防衛的能力那這個部分那你們在委員會的時候說為什麼不放在以後每年的預算中那對產業來講它必須是要穩定的所以這個1.25兆"},{"start":9449.145,"end":9474.756,"text":"我們已經告訴大家它是一個天花板的概念所以剛剛牛許廷委員擔心的財務的衝擊那個可以在每一年提出來的時候可以討論那現在我們講的是1.25兆民進黨這邊需要的事情是它是一個系統升級那是不是能夠一次就把這個空間做出來那我也特別想要友善的再提醒大家說這不只是"},{"start":9475.236,"end":9502.396,"text":"台灣就是國防部提出來的需求那國防部也講過很多次跟我們的盟友有相關的討論那這也是對盟友宣示我們有自我防衛的決心要強化它那我想美國參議院我們最重要的朋友台灣連線共同主席說1.25兆是台灣對自己自我防衛的重要投資"},{"start":9503.797,"end":9510.473,"text":"敦促各政黨以即時 即時就是要緊急 要團結而且前瞻的方式推進這項預算"},{"start":9512.618,"end":9533.03,"text":"那是台灣連線共同主席說的參議院軍委會主席更直接說在野黨他被在野黨大幅削減國防預算感到失望那是他講的他可能不知道我們的進度在哪裡還有參議員匡熙恆說最近說的我最顧慮的就是台灣低估了中國的意圖"},{"start":9534.071,"end":9547.022,"text":"你們眼前明明已經有了香港這個先例所以請不要再讓同樣的悲劇在台灣重演我們都希望和平但請千萬不要天真最了解台灣的處長AIT處長古麗妍說"},{"start":9549.224,"end":9575.89,"text":"美國能幫助朋友的程度終究取決於他們願意為幫助自己付出多少努力那我們民進黨團這邊要講的事情是這個1.25兆是天花板它有三塊那如果依照國民黨跟民眾黨的榜本只剩軍購那你們可不可以告訴我們為什麼台灣之盾這個系統的升級能夠像以色列的鐵穹"},{"start":9578.191,"end":9602.943,"text":"美國的金蟲一樣讓大家覺得防護是更多重更安全的為什麼不好那系統升級就是一次性的努力那分好多年能夠做出來那還有飛鴻供應鏈無人機的產業那為什麼不值得支持那我覺得以上說明希望能夠說服我們的藍白兩黨支持不打折好謝謝范議員"},{"start":9606.084,"end":9631.209,"text":"那個台灣民眾黨團這個名稱這個那國民黨團能不能接受台灣民眾黨團所提的這個名稱如果可以的話台灣民眾黨團的是保衛國家安全及強化不對稱戰力計畫採購特別條例這個講起來應該是非常中庸而且精確度也很夠台灣民眾黨團你不堅持一下自己名稱嗎"},{"start":9633.383,"end":9651.788,"text":"對啊 這個在我們委員會討論的時候其實大家看起來是比較支持我們台灣民眾黨的版本的那國民黨團 民進黨團我們支持台灣民眾黨團這個名稱有意見嗎沒有意見嘛我們其實在委員會的時候是覺得這個台灣民眾黨的版本是可以南瓜進來我們那時候是沒有意見的"},{"start":9652.688,"end":9677.903,"text":"那國民黨團這邊名稱能不能支持我們先開始起碼要進入名稱這邊請劉維廷議員我跟主席報告一下因為這名稱可能跟後續的一些條文都會掛鉤如果後續的實施條文的精神不被影響的話我對名稱是沒有意見的以上那我們就後面繼續探討的條文的時候啊我們到時候再小心注意一下好不好名稱我們先通過台灣民眾黨團版本大家有沒有意見沒有意見好謝謝我們通過名稱"},{"start":9684.025,"end":9713.317,"text":"國安部沒有意見吧國安部國安部尊重大家的意見如果支持民眾黨團台灣民眾黨團的名稱OK好好謝謝我們現在進入行政院提案民眾黨團提案國民黨團提案的第一條有關立法目的的條文來各位委員請發言要精確精要一點請問針對第一條條文大家有沒有寶貴的意見"},{"start":9728.449,"end":9744.573,"text":"那我就先針對第一條,我覺得我們大家聚焦那我就直接講我們在國防外交討論的這個結論,因為其實差異最大的大概是兩個一個是非紅供應鏈,還有一個是這個就是T-DOM,就是我們的防空系統"},{"start":9745.313,"end":9763.773,"text":"那因為這個就直接連結到第四條就是那個項目大家的意見是不同的那這邊呢我們還是一樣堅持啦就是說第一個就是TDOM就是對於這個防空系統的整合對台灣當然是特別的重要你不能夠有各式各樣的防空系統結果你不整合那就等於這個防空系統沒有意義"},{"start":9764.734,"end":9778.606,"text":"那第二個就是呢因為這一次打造這個所謂的非紅供應鏈它的重點是它不但是能夠扶植我們的國防自主那它呢也能夠就是增加台灣的工作機會那我相信呢在這邊呢不管是這個國民黨還是民眾黨應該對於"},{"start":9781.668,"end":9805.957,"text":"我們用特別條例的這樣的一個方式有國防自主然後又可以增加台灣的工作機會我想這個應該是大家比較不會有意見啦所以呢是不是可以把這個飛鴻供應鏈重新放回來我覺得這個應該是我們的重中之重那這就只針對第一條 發言到這邊 謝謝謝謝沈博言的發言 劉錫廷委員請準備你發言嗎你肯定你還要發言 你趕緊我就直接點你名好了 謝謝謝謝主席啊"},{"start":9810.597,"end":9838.718,"text":"這個我想我們第一條的寫法當然就是跟著條文的名稱一起啦就既然是以對美採購為重點而且優先處理的項目那我想在裡面把它寫明我想是有必要的當然在裡面怎麼樣大家可以這個互相達成共識這個我覺得可以再商量一下但我覺得至少這個對美國政府及授權體制之軍事裝備及相關服務採購建構防衛能力等等相關的語句應該是要被保留的這我覺得大家看看能不能兼容而不偏廢啦我覺得可以往這個方向思考一下以上"},{"start":9843.852,"end":9859.153,"text":"我補充一下雖然這個當然難免啦在這種場合到最後我不希望今天主席都已經希望大家不要少一點政治啦這個另外一個我們跟另外兩個版本差異的是另外兩個黨直接寫了因應中共的情勢威脅嘛那我們的版本是因應國際情勢我覺得可以加個因應國際情勢的變化"},{"start":9860.675,"end":9889.111,"text":"因為我想中共的威脅包含在國際情勢的變化裡面但是我覺得也沒有必要這個特別標舉這件事情就是總體的變化它是有涵蓋的也就是說並沒有說要漏掉刻意不講我覺得很奇怪所以我覺得如果大家可以在這個地方大家達成一個共識用寬一點的方式來處理我想我們不會都不抵觸這個條文的精神嘛也不會影響它的相關效果也許可以剛剛名稱好像有一點點眉目如果這個東西大家可以發揮一點智慧的話我也覺得"},{"start":9889.871,"end":9893.555,"text":"我也覺得是有修正空間的 以上這個現在問題變得"},{"start":9896.531,"end":9919.83,"text":"變得有一點 有一點麻煩了不過沒有關係 我們一步一步往前推進臺灣民眾黨團要不要發表意見是 院長 非常感謝這個院長 召開這個協商不過如果照這樣的方式的話可能像是委員會的情況會再發生一次啦因為大家其實都蠻堅持自己的這個版本尤其 我覺得名稱可能還好啦因為這個很多實際上你真的到了深水區到這些條文的內容上可能大家都還是蠻"},{"start":9920.991,"end":9937.796,"text":"覺得自己的版本是比較好的那這樣協商是不是會有進展啊這再請院長多多的這個考慮一下 以上您對於剛才牛喜廷委員所提那樣的一個意見 貴黨的意見是什麼"},{"start":9939.034,"end":9950.021,"text":"這個要表明 人不同意就不同意 保留就保留我們還是覺得應該是要使用台灣民主黨這個版本了解 好 林竹英委員請發言"},{"start":9951.107,"end":9971.772,"text":"好 謝謝主席我想今天其實大家都希望是在這個條例的部分能夠有一個往前推進所以才會在第一條的部分我們希望就是用台灣民眾黨版本也可以那麼我先講一下就是說行政院的版本其實特別有提到是國內廠商的採購主要就是除了非紅供應鏈以外"},{"start":9972.992,"end":9996.49,"text":"我相信台中市長盧秀燕在接受媒體採訪的時候她特別也提到她來自於台中她身為台中市長我們很多的機工具都是在這個商工的部分就在台中所以其實我們在推這個的時候我們當然也是希望扶植台灣的在這個產業上面那剛剛牛委員所特別提到的是不是就不要寫中共是把這個國際情勢的部分放進去我認為其實是不是要讓顧部長來回應一下因為我覺得如果我們爭執在文字"},{"start":10002.274,"end":10005.396,"text":"這個部分其實是無助於就像剛剛王委員也講了深水區其實是在等一下我們要討論的這幾個採購的方向那麼這個都是比較是屬於涵蓋性概念性因為我們現在討論的是條例院長也非常清楚我們接下來還有預算要進來"},{"start":10019.406,"end":10045.531,"text":"那個才是真正的重中之重所以如果可以往前推進的我都同意說在文字上可以做修正可以揣摩的我們都問一下國防部的意見如果可以多增加然後甚至於說台灣民眾黨的版本裡面可以多增加一些什麼樣的字句進去我覺得大家的目標應該都是一樣就是條例緊迫的能夠把旗艦劃整成大家的共識"},{"start":10047.272,"end":10061.623,"text":"謝謝林柱英委員的發言顧部長請你用那個非常清楚的頭腦再一次說明你的想法吧不敢那個鮑委員長還有各位我想大家在委員會討論已經"},{"start":10064.297,"end":10079.389,"text":"說出這個最關鍵的就是國民黨堅持一定是要透過對美國政府及其授權體系之軍事裝備及相關服務採購也就是它只限於對美的軍事採購但我們認為這個特別預算的包括"},{"start":10080.129,"end":10097.894,"text":"自治跟商購的這個部分的額度大概是三千餘億元這個部分沒有辦法以年度預算來進行編列那麼我們希望在編列在這一次的特別預算我想這個跟第四條的這個能力建構有很大的關聯所以也因為這樣子產生了連動性"},{"start":10100.054,"end":10109.858,"text":"這個要請各位能夠參佐,是不是大家的共識,我想文字是一個問題,但是不限於只是對美軍購的項目,就這一點"},{"start":10119,"end":10128.152,"text":"想請教這個在黨就是說如果說把你們的部分包含進去我行政院提案的部分有沒有辦法接受就是把這個條文擴充"},{"start":10134.116,"end":10162.055,"text":"我覺得狀況就會變成其實就是我們在委員會討論的狀況嘛因為這個就跟第四項等等掛鉤還是這一次乾脆我們先討論一下金額跟有沒有共識這一段先處理因為我覺得那些大的問題解決的這些細節上的東西速度就會很快我覺得可能是這樣要不然我們每次都會因為討論細節的東西然後說因為跟後面掛鉤而無法處理然後我們又花很多時間在討論文字細節上我覺得這樣也不太效率啦所以是不是要直接進到深水區先做一次大體的討論我覺得這是可以思考的 以上"},{"start":10162.295,"end":10162.445,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":10170.683,"end":10196.173,"text":"這關鍵 沈博洋請發言我很快速的回應就是說我也同意就是說當然我們可以先從金額來做討論不過因為討論到金額的時候又會討論到到底是對美軍工還是不是對就還是一樣 對對它其實還是會回到同樣一個問題啦所以但是剛剛冠廷委員提到的就是說能不能夠整合比如說因為其實在機密會議的時候我們就會去知道因為這公開的沒有辦法講但是就會知道它不是只有跟美國有關嘛"},{"start":10196.593,"end":10210.949,"text":"那所以說是不是能夠在這一個因為行政院的版本它的涵蓋很大所以我剛剛才講說至少有兩件事情我們可以討論一個是防空系統一個是非紅供應鏈嘛因為這兩個顯然是在其他的版本沒有被放進去的所以這是第一個可以討論的"},{"start":10211.71,"end":10239.445,"text":"那第二個就是說要不要把國家寫進去因為我還是要再度強調就是說我們今天提出這樣的一個條例是因為國防有需求那他有需求他要跟哪一國買這應該不是照理說不是條例的重點才對我們上一格最近通過的條例叫馬太安的救災的條例那馬太安救災條例裡面也不會講說因為我們要恢復光復鄉的農業這個農業的機具一定要跟日本的九寶田買"},{"start":10240.425,"end":10266.541,"text":"所以到最後我們的條例就叫做對日採購條例不會這個樣子所以照理說需求就是要強化國防的戰力是不是美國這個不會是這個條例的重點那所以我們回歸這件問題的話我們不要把這個美國強不需要強調在這邊因為你跟誰都可以買嘛那你的項目到底合不合格比如說防空系統大家有不滿意又或者說今天非紅工藝鏈大家有不滿意就可以聚焦在這邊談"},{"start":10267.701,"end":10291.262,"text":"談了之後就可以去確定說那到底金額我們的上限應該是多少以上 謝謝第四條 第五條那謝謝沈博洋委員發言那各位委員同仁 這個我是感覺是完完全全卡住我想我先休息十分鐘大概掌握這個黃金十分鐘趕快溝通一下好吧 溝通完畢我們來下達一下我們"},{"start":10294.939,"end":10297.695,"text":"初步的一個裁決 好不好好 休息十分鐘"},{"start":10518.68,"end":10519.508,"text":"確定下次是怎樣"},{"start":10674.292,"end":10686.731,"text":"好謝謝各黨團幹部各位列席官員請坐我們現在繼續開會時間已經到了五點半了好我們接下來請國防外交召委陳冠廷委員發言發言完畢之後我即將做宣告請陳委員陳召委請"},{"start":10689.195,"end":10717.346,"text":"院長還有我們在野黨的同事們那其實在幾週前我們跟很多參議員跟眾議員的這些國會的訪團我們都有見面過那在昨天這個夏興當初的參議員的訪團他有特別在致信給我們所有與會的同仁包含院長副院長還有牛委員跟王偉我們都有收到這個信那裡面不斷地強調說對於商購我們自主的能力的重視"},{"start":10718.266,"end":10734.751,"text":"那我們當然知道今天的爭點還是軍購跟加商購要不要那我們理解說在野黨他們的立場是要把商購放在其他的部分不是在這次的特別條例我們希望等一下院長做完宣告之後我們還是能夠"},{"start":10735.931,"end":10750.564,"text":"請院長發揮你的領導力盡量的可以跟在野黨的黨團的這些他們的總召們好好的來一方面也是說因為我們都理解到這個商購對國防預算的重要性它是我們自主的能力我們真的必須要擁有它所以"},{"start":10751.545,"end":10776.27,"text":"如果今天沒有結論的話是不是在非協商的時間可以請院長跟我們幾位年輕的委員能夠去跟貴黨的總召好好的討論一下商購到底有沒有機會可不可以盡量把它放進去這個是我們很誠摯的呼籲他現在還有一個總召叫陳金榮總召他也一樣非常重要好不好好 謝謝我們做一個宣告 顧部長請"},{"start":10777.652,"end":10795.658,"text":"我是有個提議啦不曉得大家覺得怎麼樣就是說因為現在條例跟預算有點卡在一起那我是說如果我們再排一個專報那我們把每個專報那大家就有點提前審預算的概念就是說覺得這樣子的案因為"},{"start":10796.533,"end":10816.988,"text":"因為現在國民黨說一定要軍購嘛 對不對那我們會提出一些自治跟商購的項目那麼在這個委員會裡面我們做個專報那大家就可以提前了解說這筆錢到底是用在什麼地方這筆錢用在什麼地方那麼這樣子是不是有助於大家最後有一些"},{"start":10818.271,"end":10834.588,"text":"我們講說有一點預審這個預算的概念然後最後大家要有一個共識這樣有沒有可能那有一些當然最後堅持說這個我一定要求要擺入年度預算有一些不能擺入特別預算最後當然還是要尊重這個"},{"start":10836.49,"end":10860.009,"text":"大院的這個表決嘛 對不對那這個時候也許國民黨跟民眾黨會比較更有這個全盤的了解來去了解這整個預算這個條例搭配預算的一個規劃的實際的內容好 謝謝顧部長這個提建議我們下禮拜就兵分二路一路就是陳昭偉這個地方您就排因為你是昭偉下禮拜輪值嘛你可以排啊"},{"start":10861.107,"end":10880.245,"text":"這是一路嘛第二路就是說我們下禮拜我這邊來負責就是黨團協商我們再一次來協商在這裡我誠懇要建議各黨團幹部我們今天是軍購相關條文進行的發言那我要特別拜託有兩個大象請大家一定要加強溝通一個採購項目另外一個經費"},{"start":10885.027,"end":10912.91,"text":"這兩個請大家一定要先行溝通那我會在下禮拜再一次來召開那今天因為中央政府總預算把它卡住了我們差不多四點多才開始討論時間實在是有點不夠所以下禮拜我可能會時間會稍微提早一點讓大家有充分的時間但為了有效發揮會議的主要的目的性跟宗旨希望大家能夠先行溝通那也請陳冠廷召委下禮拜就排一個顧部長所提的那個那時候大家"},{"start":10914.199,"end":10938.928,"text":"盡量踴躍參加,不要說到時候又沒聽到,這樣就沒有意思了好不好,國防部也釋出了善意,陳昭偉也排了那大家還是盡量踴躍參加,有問題可以在委員會那邊直接溝通,蔡董事長請院長講這個我補充一下啦,程序上第一個就是說,我剛剛已經請冠廷昭偉星期一就排"},{"start":10940.34,"end":10956.646,"text":"讓在野黨更加了解就是說為什麼條例我們可以先過有商購的這個項目但事先讓大家了解商購可能有哪些內容那這些內容如果大家覺得有一些其實是有必要"},{"start":10957.446,"end":10980.283,"text":"那有一些可能貴黨還有意見那至少有必要的他已經有這個法源可以來進行商購事先先讓大家了解商購的內容是什麼或許這個是有助於大家的溝通那星期一就排所以是不是院長我們星期四就再來召開超級新城這樣事先決定讓大家在排新城的時候拜喜"},{"start":10983.025,"end":10999.859,"text":"下禮拜一排報專報 禮拜四我們就來協商沒有 我不一定下禮拜四 說明禮拜三就排啦可以啦 我的意思是說 院長我意思是說你先有一個 如果大家都可以時間先定下來大家比較好 不然有等一下副總召又說他有什麼事情所以我就說兵分二路嘛"},{"start":11000.299,"end":11026.296,"text":"就陳昭偉這個地方先下禮拜一排我這個草野協商這邊立刻就來跟進來排但在這個排的之前要拜託大家針對項目跟經費問題還是溝通一下這一點要特別拜託大家好不好那我今天非常謝謝各位黨團幹部大家一起來參與謝謝各部會首長列席非常感謝大家我們就你放心我們私底下溝通"},{"start":11030.441,"end":11034.746,"text":"好 我們會擇期再來由我本人負責召集協商現在散會"}]}},{"id":"17357","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17357","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/16eb79f0bb3b77db0554717462f89e5b9d46ae8116e89c27847b9569dcea103de5be9d51fe53f4305ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2026-04-15T12:30:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院朝野黨團協商（事由：一、本院經濟委員會報告併案審查行政院函請審議「企業併購法增訂第五章之一章名及第四十四條之二、第五十二條之一、第五十四條條文修正草案」、委員王美惠等20人、委員沈發惠等17人、委員賴惠員等20人及委員賴瑞隆等18人分別擬具「企業併購法部分條文修正草案」案。二、本院委員邱志偉等21人擬具「企業併購法增訂第四十四條之二、第五章之一章名及第五十二條之一條文草案」案。三、本院委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「企業併購法部分條文修正草案」案。四、本院委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「企業併購法增訂第四十四條之二、第五章之一章名及第五十二條之一條文草案」案。）","type":"Full","date":"2026-04-15","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2026-04-15T12:00:15+08:00","end_time":"2026-04-15T12:43:00+08:00","duration":2565,"影片長度":"00:42:45","委員發言時間":"12:00:15 - 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洪玉祥召委那還有曾振淺委員那這個瓊英跟志偉他們剛剛都有到先到完 已經先離開那我已經有詢問過他們的意見他們都沒有意見"},{"start":1954.122,"end":1972.438,"text":"對 然後我也問過賴瑞榮委員 賴瑞榮委員也沒有意見了那我們現在介紹我們的列席單位列席人員 經濟部次長 姜文若姜次長法制司司長 羅翠玲羅司長商業署副署長 劉雅娟劉副署長國家發展委員會"},{"start":1974.5,"end":1978.386,"text":"我們的主委葉主委還有我們的產發處參事還有我們的財政部副署長還有我們法務部參事金管會我們的政企局的檢密謝謝了"},{"start":1991.124,"end":2004.552,"text":"然後我們現在進入進入了嗎現在開始進行協商那本案於114年11月10日本院第11屆第4會期的經濟委員會第10次全體委員會會議進行審查由本席擔任召委那委員會的審查結論增訂第44條之後的條文造行政院提案通過"},{"start":2020.06,"end":2047.106,"text":"徵訂第五章之一的章名照行政院提案通過徵訂第52條之一的條文所有提案均保留受院會處理第54條的條文照行政院提案通過那通過附帶決議四項院會交付協商的提案有邱志偉委員陳婷妃委員其楊瓊英委員三件的提案與本次會議"},{"start":2048.627,"end":2061.341,"text":"並按協商那增訂第44條之後的條文審查會結論是照行政院提案通過請問各位委員有無意見"},{"start":2063.117,"end":2077.879,"text":"那沒有意見的話我們就照審查會的審查結果通過增訂第五章之一章名審查會結論是照行政院提案通過請問委員有沒有意見"},{"start":2079.52,"end":2093.513,"text":"沒有的話我們就照審查會審查結果通過增訂52條之一的條文審查會結論是所有提案均保留送院會處理那我們先請經濟部進行說明謝謝"},{"start":2103.072,"end":2119.006,"text":"主席還有在座的兩位紅召委以及政委員我進一步來說明52條之一就是我們院版的所提的這個罰還的額度呢是參照產業創新條例還有生技醫藥發展條例"},{"start":2123.49,"end":2139.662,"text":"的這個相關的規定 因為這個這兩個條例跟產業有關 我們這次氣病法也是為了要提升我們產業的發展環境而且是希望能夠由中小企業能夠做相關的整併來擴大"},{"start":2140.863,"end":2159.126,"text":"他的規模然後呢能夠資源共享所以呢我們希望這個大院能夠同意我們因為已經尋利可以前面有產創條例還有生技發展條例這樣子的一個體力我們希望大院能夠支持院辦以上"},{"start":2159.967,"end":2187.24,"text":"那有跟所有的委員溝通過嗎?就是我們在當時候審查的時候有一些委員有意見都有溝通過了嗎?有那我剛剛為了慎重起見也有跟幾位委員當時候有發言的幾位委員有確認過他們都沒有意見基本上就照我們院版通過跟我們協商會議的所有委員報告那我們就"},{"start":2188.02,"end":2216.308,"text":"照行政院提案通過第54條條文審查會結論是照行政院提案通過請問各位委員有無意見沒有的話我們就照審查會審查結果通過那我們現在是針對附帶決議我們有四項附帶決議請問各位委員有無意見沒有的話我們就照審查會審查結果通過"},{"start":2219.704,"end":2235.04,"text":"好 來 我們曾振謙委員謝謝主席其實原則上我們針對這一次的修法的時候我們其實是朝向知識的角度不過因為當時在委員資訊的時候有提到修法有部分的一些要特別注意的地方比方說只針對大企業"},{"start":2236.141,"end":2251.191,"text":"那產業控股的租稅優惠方向正確但是對中小企業可能用不太齊所以這部分我們也希望特別去請經濟部這邊也特別去特別關注一下另外就推動產業控股公司本應成熟5年15家是不是"},{"start":2252.512,"end":2268.988,"text":"一成不變還是說有一定的一個什麼叫做一定的規模才可以進入這個部分那何必有沒有地緣瞌睡的機制那也希望說經濟部這邊能夠多加考慮然後進一步做說明 謝謝那我們請經濟部說明一下"},{"start":2271.951,"end":2292.848,"text":"謝謝委員的提問第一個我們並沒有限產業別所以不論是各類型的產業別都可以如果他們有這樣的意願我們都會進行相關的輔導至於加速這些KPI等問題這個還有後續的相關的這些規定我是不是可以請國發會來做說明請國發會"},{"start":2298.786,"end":2315.439,"text":"主席召委還有委員就這個部分來講就是規模以及那一個加速這個部分的話我們有跟那個財政部這邊有做過一些協商那財政部這一邊基本上應該表達的跟我們是一樣的想法嗎對不對"},{"start":2316.72,"end":2335.057,"text":"所以基本上就是說我們加就是5年15加這個部分當然這是我們的目標啦我們希望達到啦加就是那個3億的這個部分的話財政部也同意這個方向以上那曾委員OK嗎好謝謝那我們"},{"start":2337.509,"end":2360.546,"text":"我們補充一下就好就是說因為整個我們政府就要單位其實但是法規都這樣子訂其實我們也都是鼓勵啦那剛剛政委員問的問題當然就是像不管一些新興的產業尤其像我們在這種軟體支付產業的一些的併購或是控股就是說它在這個地方可能也需要去努力一下大概這是一個"},{"start":2361.346,"end":2386.347,"text":"那第二個我覺得是說因為你這邊國發會將來會認定哪些是產業控股公司嘛所以我覺得你的這一些的程序機制審議文件審查委員等等你最好是公開上網避免將來還有一些認定的糾紛啦好不好我覺得這是執行力的問題啦好不好也跟停車委員這樣做一個說明"},{"start":2388.208,"end":2409.574,"text":"公開上網這個部分的話,我想應該是可以的啦我們請主委這邊,因為其實我們在附帶決議的第三條就是針對我們委員所擔心的部分,就是說數家產業控股公司的部分到底它的規模,還有它的"},{"start":2411.695,"end":2425.443,"text":"這個樣態還有等等這個基本上我們有要求你們要送書面報告給立法院經濟委員會所以你就把我們兩位委員所擔憂的部分一併納入到我們的書面報告好不好好 謝謝這我們附帶決議裡面有好 謝謝"},{"start":2431.24,"end":2455.697,"text":"我們這個做一個結論企業併購法部分條文修正草案黨團協商玩具協商結論我們這個通過條文52-1就是當時保留的部分我們正式通過依照行政院我們的版本通過那其餘條文及附帶決議經照審查會審查結果通過謝謝大家 散會"}]}},{"id":"168515","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168515","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ec77822e2e6eae3dcb1b0bfb6fa3ef0354b0245b1feb432957eaa2632da1fa1789215d5dfcb6ad05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱議瑩","委員發言時間":"09:23:19 - 09:30:33","影片長度":"00:07:14","會議時間":"2026-04-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員會主任委員、運動部首長、教育部首長及財政部首長就「我國運動產業發展之政策規劃、人才培育、跨部會資源整合、相關租稅優惠執行成效、未來產值提升目標，及先進國家運動產業政策之分析比較」進行報告，並備質詢。\n【4月15日及4月16日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-04-15","start_time":"2026-04-15T09:23:19+08:00","end_time":"2026-04-15T09:30:33+08:00","duration":434,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":5,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-5-19-9"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.5572187500000005,"end":11.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.82659375,"end":12.704093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.189093750000001,"end":15.488468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.09159375,"end":18.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.926593750000002,"end":20.297843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.43284375,"end":21.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.17534375,"end":24.246593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.42784375,"end":26.625968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.17846875,"end":28.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.207843750000002,"end":35.21534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.00846875,"end":36.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.81846875,"end":38.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.59034375,"end":39.01221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.197843750000004,"end":43.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.58534375,"end":50.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.52096875,"end":57.15284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.37221875,"end":70.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.92284375,"end":71.61471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.96909375,"end":73.90971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.24721875,"end":79.41096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.86659375,"end":82.54971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.78596875000001,"end":89.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.73846875000001,"end":95.00346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.45909375000001,"end":100.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.92659375000001,"end":104.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.09471875000001,"end":110.56221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.40596875000001,"end":129.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.42846875,"end":161.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.06471875,"end":173.50596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.18096875,"end":176.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.92284375,"end":180.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.67346875,"end":182.44971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.37784375,"end":186.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.75284375,"end":193.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.78971875000002,"end":197.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.36721875,"end":202.15971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.31159375000001,"end":205.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.55159375000002,"end":209.83784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.77471875,"end":214.96784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.30159375000002,"end":213.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.69346875000002,"end":219.52409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.52409375000002,"end":219.94596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.16534375,"end":223.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.75971875000002,"end":224.06346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.81034375000002,"end":224.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.35034375,"end":229.10909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.34534375,"end":231.25221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.45471875,"end":234.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.82971875,"end":236.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.66909375,"end":241.74846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.08596875,"end":246.92909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.09784375,"end":250.28721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.40534375000001,"end":258.52221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.75846875,"end":259.39971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.68659375000004,"end":262.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.55534375,"end":265.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.69409375000004,"end":266.85846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.24659375000005,"end":280.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.35846875000004,"end":287.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.81721875,"end":290.61846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.22596875,"end":293.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.31846875,"end":302.22846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.53221875,"end":303.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.96659375,"e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謝謝主席我是不是請一下經濟部次長請經濟部何市長這個麥克風是不是換過啊對啊 這個Chairman好次長好 次長我想這個還是要請教一下你有關注到這個國民黨的主席鄭麗文正主席去訪問中國的期間"},{"start":36.072,"end":56.681,"text":"的這些相關報導來讓您review一下這個習政會的舉辦的這個當中4月7號到4月12號4月12號左右這個中國片面就宣布了他們有幾個會台的十大政策"},{"start":57.461,"end":73.554,"text":"但是你看一下,鄭麗文主席去到中國訪問的期間,尤其是4月10號當天,是她跟習近平主席會晤的日子,那一天的共機擾台的次數、架次特別多,相對幾天來講特別多。"},{"start":74.395,"end":88.924,"text":"我不知道這個是中國的習性還是說中國對待訪問他們的客人的禮貌性就是我去訪問你當天呢這個假賜要特別多表示歡迎之意嗎我不太懂"},{"start":89.844,"end":110.239,"text":"那在那一天 中國又宣布要黃海實彈射擊 不管他做什麼動作啦總之呢 做完這些軍事擾台 把你撩亂一半之後他就公布了一個所謂的十大對台政策次長你看了一下 你覺得這十大對台政策 你的看法為何"},{"start":111.46,"end":128.15,"text":"我看了一下這十個對台政策看起來好像跟過往他們的所謂的十大過往的所謂的會台政策沒有什麼太大的差別不過呢這一次的幾大政策的前提都必須要是堅持九二共識反對台獨"},{"start":129.511,"end":144.103,"text":"就是說你在做政黨交流要堅持九二共識這個我覺得這當然是合理啦青年平台也要反對九二共識比較讓我覺得匪夷所思的是農漁貿易漁業管理食品安全"},{"start":144.924,"end":161.006,"text":"是不是你未來在做這些貿易交流的時候我都要先在我的農漁產品上面寫說我堅持九二共識或者是我這一隻魚是反台獨我這一個芭樂是反台獨是不是要這樣子才能來做進行做交流"},{"start":162.393,"end":180.506,"text":"經濟部的看法是什麼經濟部未來對於這個所謂的十大對台政策經濟部的做法又會是什麼有什麼要提點的或者是說你們覺得台灣現在到目前為止面對中國的這一些"},{"start":182.061,"end":196.907,"text":"謊言台灣人民其實是已經習慣了嗎來市長根文報告那其實現在台灣的產業也已經走出自己的路了那過去這個台灣跟"},{"start":197.747,"end":213.44,"text":"這個中國的這個貿易的這個金額其實這幾年來是大幅下降那也就是說其實我們台灣的中小企業對這個分散市場的部分這幾年來已經大幅下降是大幅下降到多少你要把這個數字講出來嗎我現在有的數字2010年台商對中國的投資是佔比是84%到現在應該剩下不到4%"},{"start":224.029,"end":238.665,"text":"現在就是說其實這個投資已經大幅下降那貿易也是這個過去大陸是一向是我們最高最大的貿易的對象但是現在已經美國已經變成是我們最大的貿易對象"},{"start":240.026,"end":247.252,"text":"那另外我們在新南向的部分的貿易金額也是大幅的成長所以很顯然就是說它的這些匯來政策對台灣的中小微企業其實我是認為就是應該是不具任何吸引力尤其最近中美的貿易戰或科技戰"},{"start":259.742,"end":279.601,"text":"这样的一个费用供应链的这样的议题兴起那也许就是说大家在做市场脱销的部分也许就会在大陆的市场上面大家可能就会慢慢移转到其他民主的供应链的国家去做投资"},{"start":281.002,"end":309.582,"text":"這個次長根據亞洲開發銀行的預測2026年台灣的經濟成長率應該會到7.6%中國的經濟成長率大概只有4.6%如果中國的經濟成長率這麼低然後中國現在告訴你說我來這個開放台灣對中國的這些不管是農漁的進口啦這些投資啦交流啦等等在這個九二共識跟這個反對台獨的這個框架底下歡迎大家來做這一些交流"},{"start":310.582,"end":331.515,"text":"我不覺得台灣人有這麼笨中國的經濟成長率相對已經比台灣還要緩慢整個市場也在萎縮當中他們自己的內需市場也過於飽和甚至已經疲態化了那我想每一個投資人應該都會去斟酌甚至去思考是不是應該要去這裡投資但是過去"},{"start":335.057,"end":360.471,"text":"台灣依賴單一政治化的這個市場的習性現在已經大幅改變了我覺得像中國在前一陣子禁止中國人進入日本旅遊他覺得會對日本帶來一個非常重大的旅遊傷害結果沒有啊日本人拍拍手啊日本的旅遊業蓬勃發展啊日本的旅遊環境其實是受到蠻好的保護啊"},{"start":361.431,"end":384.21,"text":"所以中國的這一些政策就我現在看起來是笑話一樁啦但是呢還是有一些人緊抱著中國的大腿不放還是有一些人對中國懷抱著夢想甚至呢這個不被禮貌對待的這個在野黨的黨主席回來以後他們還要再組一個對中國的所謂的對應小組"},{"start":386.482,"end":410.495,"text":"在我看來這個真的是笑話一裝不過就台灣的整體的經濟發展或者是說對於警訊危機的警告提醒這件事情經濟部還是不能把它當成笑話一則來看待還是應該要嚴肅以對應該要適時的對國人對國內的企業或者是您剛剛講到的中小微企業"},{"start":411.616,"end":433.816,"text":"如果有危機存在的地方還是應該要適度的扮演好政府在監督管理或者是協助的角色應該對於他們提出警訊甚至來提出協助我想這一點還是我們經濟部應該要持續去做的事情好不好謝謝謝謝邱營委員市長先回座"}]}},{"id":"168513","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168513","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ec77822e2e6eae38407b3ec8f4ab0a8cf00c58ee6be6f7a957eaa2632da1fa1d6c0f0b264154b055ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳昭姿","委員發言時間":"09:12:03 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就是涉到自己的事情 怎能立案調查那媒體當時還提醒他 以前就發生過監察院秘書長被調查彈劾的情勢如果按照這個葉大華監委的邏輯 那監察委員如果濫權沒有任何人可以查嗎監察委員這麼大嗎 沒有任何法律或行政能夠究責嗎 秘書長事情是這樣的嗎"},{"start":63.552,"end":86.653,"text":"跟委員報告我們監察院本身對這個案子是真正有調查的我們是透過我們本院的紀律委員會進行調查所以我們這邊是有查查也有做出相關的決定所以葉大華的監委他講的話不是正確的他說涉及事件怎能調查呢他當時對媒體這麼講的"},{"start":88.474,"end":110.051,"text":"那沒關係秘書長我要特別說明一件事情去年當然你還沒有就任在審查監察院的追加預算的時候民眾黨黨團原本是要全書刪除的但是當時的那個代理秘書長也就是王貞華表示將針對公務車濫用的事情做積極的調查因此本黨就釋出善意就把那個案子撤了"},{"start":112.053,"end":126.481,"text":"當時這個代理秘書長也有明確表示說案件已經進入剛剛您談的這個紀律委員會那預期九月會有結果可是後來呢一直到延宕到今年二月才提出來而且最後的處分竟然是什麼 您知道嗎最後的處分是"},{"start":127.381,"end":140.592,"text":"最後處分是請這個林玉榮委員在院會那後來他是在院會以口頭來道歉他是口頭道歉處請注意完全沒有任何懲處啊請問秘書長您當時有參與這個公務車事件的調查嗎"},{"start":144.656,"end":165.408,"text":"這個是紀御委員會的組成是由委員來組成所以不是由幕僚來組成秘書長你認為這個處分妥當嗎這樣的結果你能接受嗎你會不會要求重新來過我們也沒這個職權要求重新來過但是我在這邊必須要很負責任的代表監察院向委員以及大院來報告相關的懲處我們也都是依據相關的法制"},{"start":171.412,"end":188.3,"text":"那這個紀律委員會有規定那我們做的一個決定是請林玉榮委員要口頭道歉那王滬章委員是處請注意那蘇麗瓊委員因為她是因為牙痛所以她去"},{"start":189.1,"end":202.871,"text":"緊急去看醫生所以我們就沒有履行懲處我的意思其實你們對別人的檢舉大概就是彈劾啦 糾正啦那對自己還有保留一個叫口頭道歉就可以啦我跟委員報告我們這個紀律委員會所規定的相關的這個權責就是說它的懲處"},{"start":208.015,"end":234.993,"text":"罪到了這個所謂的那個道歉再來就是彈劾了差別就是它差別很大所以留在口頭道歉啊對但是為什麼留在口頭道歉是有法律依據的為什麼呢因為我們一般來講對一般的公務人員的彈劾尤其是在公務車的濫用的情況之下都必須要有刑法追訴有刑事責任的時候才會進入到彈劾所以跟全國公務人員是一致我換另外一道題目謝謝"},{"start":236.594,"end":241.459,"text":"監察院在貶政府時期曾經空轉三年有數萬個案件都被擱置了但是很奇怪當時社會都沒有什麼明顯感受連陳總統事後都親自告訴我說沒有人指控他違憲那我要請問秘書長這樣的狀況是代表制度上是功能失靈呢還是本來就沒有被人民感受到說它存在的價值呢"},{"start":259.215,"end":278.242,"text":"事實上跟委員報告我們監察院的存在非常重要其實剛才我在報告的時候就已經提到了我們本院負擔彈劾的工作其實過去大院一直有一個質詢權可是就缺了我們這個調查權已經賦予在監察院調查之後我們再進入到彈劾然後才送工程會您的報告我有認真聽但是我剛剛在講當時的事實就這樣也沒有人提出違憲"},{"start":288.386,"end":308.137,"text":"社會也無感這是一個事實現象的部分秘書長有位民進黨政治人物說過過去監察院也曾經停止運作三年到頭來也是安然無恙你知道是誰講這句話嗎我對不起你不知道這就是前任監察院秘書長你的前任李俊逸在2015年擔任立委說過的話"},{"start":310.938,"end":339.426,"text":"那不久前辭職的陳菊院長也說希望自己是最後一任監察院長在憲改完成廢考監後光榮離開那2015年賴清德市長他拒絕走入議會被監察院彈劾的時候也說過台灣的監察院這幾十年來該辦的不辦反而成為政治的打手國人已經無法再支持這樣的機關了一定要廢掉監察院這個憲政怪獸我這都是引用的話那秘書長你我都知道過去民進黨多位政治人物"},{"start":340.166,"end":357.841,"text":"是主張廢除監察院並且認為監察權這個是可以回歸到立法院或其他的機制是是是這意思那說過要扮演末代監察院長的陳菊院長她辭職了但監察院還在嘛那請問秘書長您支持廢除這個監察院呢你會期許自己是末代的秘書長嗎"},{"start":359.45,"end":373.707,"text":"我沒有辦法以監察院秘書長的身份來回答我要不要做末代的秘書長但是我當然啦我過去身為一個當初是一個學者的時候呢我也有相關的主張"},{"start":374.428,"end":378.93,"text":"但是我沒辦法以秘書長的身份您過去也應該是一直 我們也曾經是戰友嘛大家都有一次的信念我的主張是廢除監察院但是監察權還是要回歸到立法院這是我當學者時候的意見"},{"start":391.374,"end":415.124,"text":"我再回來我們的這個責任的部分去年六月那個時候民眾黨先召開記者會我在記者會指出就六月之前的一些資料監察院過去三年的成績比過去三十年的工作成績還差每年地方巡查耗資一千八百萬元巡查的天數不到四十天監察員每位平均一年只處理十二個調查案到二零二四年的時候每位監務委"},{"start":416.004,"end":436.416,"text":"平均一年僅處理九件調查案全院全年僅有96個糾正案這個數字如果是你們要補充追加這樣是可以那我還要再講賴清德總統的愛將陳忠彥接受性招待的彈劾案在這個罪證明確之下竟然以2比11彈劾未過"},{"start":438.007,"end":447.732,"text":"所以這個相關爭議是慶祝難輸啊包括剛剛我提到這個濫用公務車沒有被處分那院長長期領病假雖然他不是願意生病的這個等等都是問題喔"},{"start":449.369,"end":479.112,"text":"那您還覺得這個監察院存在有非常大的價值嗎我覺得委員這邊先跟委員說明一個狀態就是說您有時候看到那個數字第一個我們那是有點片面其實我們的這邊有一個調查數字我可以在會後補充給委員我們的調查數字其實我們第五屆跟第六屆的比較來看我們本院的委員的職權心思並沒有跟第五屆有多相關的落差甚至有些"},{"start":479.452,"end":485.556,"text":"你願意給我書面一些資料補充我們想要了解監察委員有沒有努力在工作成效如何跟下來我要講的另外一件事警察院其實會被人家認為說案件選擇跟調查的強度沒有一致性一致的標準有時候會被批評只辦基層不辦大官而且好幾位請你看一下這好幾位都具有非常強烈的黨政背景那被形容是仇庸院"},{"start":507.051,"end":518.45,"text":"因為當一個機關在運作的時候爭議不斷當它不運作的時候社會又無感你看這兩件事加起來是不是代表國家其實不太需要這個機關呢"},{"start":521.28,"end":548.925,"text":"這是第一件事情就是說這個是個事實運作是有爭議但不運作大家又無感嘛過去有這個經驗那今年七月底第六屆的監委即將卸任現在面臨第一個朝野這個是對立的情勢是還是存在的第二個加上社會認為監察院好像沒有功能我剛剛舉這樣的例子那未來可能面臨監察院沒有監察委員的情況祕書長你有做好準備嗎如果監察院沒有監察委員你做好準備了嗎"},{"start":549.745,"end":575.43,"text":"其實我先回應一下那個委員覺得都只彈劾基層沒有高官這部分其實我們到3月底我們已經彈劾了132案總共217人到3月底為止因為任期到7月底那高階人員佔了八成法官13位檢察官11位是歷屆最高而且我們也有一個委託調查大概也委託調查了3809案那其中有"},{"start":579.591,"end":606.19,"text":"平反的案件有389就讓人民真正有感受的我們把它平反的有389所以監察院並不是委員說他都沒有職人這個是去聯合調查的資料他們做的非常多的內容我需要知道你們是不是確定你們是不是只辦只打蒼蠅不打老虎我們會把我們辦的官等分析給那至於這個監察院如果沒有監察員你準備好了嗎秘書長"},{"start":607.81,"end":630.538,"text":"我們從來不會去準備沒有監察委員的情況從來不會準備這樣我們做的目標一定是準備大院通過之後我們如何讓委員先任的委員來不過我還是建議秘書長您可以去請教一下前總統陳水扁總統當監察院沒有監察委員的時候那三年要怎麼樣來是如何運作的作為您的參考謝謝秘書長謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"168527","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168527","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ec77822e2e6eae36ffc0753c3fa76008ea785098ebfecd5957eaa2632da1fa18a3d5adc657703f85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉建國","委員發言時間":"09:43:52 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不管他將來的意願你還是沒有講重點啦 是部長不一樣了還是署長不一樣了"},{"start":548.112,"end":550.715,"text":"我們要解決的事還是事的部分你講一項還是物的部分你講一項你同樣講不出來了"},{"start":564.141,"end":584.792,"text":"我們還是務實的要解決這個當然是務實啊 總不務實 你們非常務實啊你們定的辦法是在讓相關的團體像讓所有的毛爸毛媽還有這些數位式的代表這個要事的代表用現場表決的多數不同意實施那就照這樣延期 然後你今天來講註銷然後你會定更好的一個方法出來 辦法出來"},{"start":591.94,"end":615.096,"text":"我就聽不太懂所以我才會那可不可以就是我們會快速的來處理這個問題那也會一個禮拜對應該是一個禮拜以後我不是說定辦法而是相關的程序對各界呼應最重要的這個一個的期待的部分我想我們都可以來做最快是什麼時候嘛"},{"start":615.976,"end":635.164,"text":"一個禮拜一個月應該是在這幾天應該如果是拍板定案應該就就會對外界的公告也就是說這個辦法不會實施那不會實施就不會有現在所產生的這一些的問題包括夜間包括你你事主要自行到要舉一次購買"},{"start":636.525,"end":652.343,"text":"一次性 一支性 然後一個這樣的一個束縛還有標籤的束縛 那還有這些像譬如說氧氣桶氧氣桶的供應的問題等等這些實務上的問題大概都可以解決今天張委在排這樣一個專報告 應該署長你來要叫做有備而來"},{"start":657.469,"end":679.668,"text":"可是我覺得你們有備而來反而會讓我覺得你們已經前面捅了一個窟窿這麼大了然後這麼大的一個讓外界對政府訂定的相關的這樣的一個管理辦法是用一個表決的方式來讓它予以延期之後然後又要再訂定一個新的辦法然後到現在"},{"start":680.929,"end":699.194,"text":"講的是會更加周全因為施工背景不一樣所以原有的辦法裡面主動願意把它廢棄掉把它註銷掉但是你還是一樣沒有辦法答覆委員會說那你新的辦法的範疇內容到底跟外務部的溝通會不會更加的順暢"},{"start":700.254,"end":714.132,"text":"然後引論而解的是在第幾條裡面的範圍是已經跟衛務部還有相關的單位相關的分局代表都已經溝通了所以訂這個辦法之後預告應該可以很盡快的就來做這個程序上的動作"},{"start":715.674,"end":735.847,"text":"包括委員我剛剛應該答覆的內容是肯定的也就是說剛剛所講說兩部之間的溝通的會議朝向的方向解決的目標其實這個都已經有快速的凝聚共識了所以我們就可以往這個更周延的辦法那我就聽你一句話叫你的快速是多快速一個禮拜兩個禮拜三個禮拜"},{"start":744.98,"end":745.803,"text":"好 謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"168526","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168526","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ec77822e2e6eae3cdc4d576d83ca88961f404ecbec9cddc957eaa2632da1fa19c8b0e28f4b914155ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃仁","委員發言時間":"09:42:38 - 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有請外交部次長請外交部次長"},{"start":13.049,"end":34.158,"text":"委員長本席有收到外交部一份公文表示台灣光華雜誌在東南亞三語版、印尼版、越南版、泰語停刊電子版也不再更新那光華雜誌過去裡面是五千年的歷史"},{"start":34.918,"end":60.292,"text":"那對於我們外交部專門向國際社會介紹台灣的軟實力的多元面貌的看護,見證台灣從經濟面的起飛,到民族的轉型,社會多元發展的一個歷程,東南亞一般也有十年的一個歷史。那所以光華雜誌也非常符合部長的雙軌外交的理念。"},{"start":60.832,"end":82.532,"text":"所以本縣很好奇的停刊的原因,外交部決定停刊東南亞三語版,最主要的政策目標是什麼?你來回答一下好不好?是,那個感謝委員的一個詮詢,因為很重要的是說我們要去調整今天在新的國際傳播的一個環境之下,那原來的這個紙本我們要衡量它的效益跟它的成本之間的一個考量。"},{"start":83.212,"end":102.481,"text":"所以在考慮我們的發行量的情況之下我們對於外的整個傳播策略有一些相對的調整同時我們現在有發現在國內有很多的其他的管道也能夠去發揮傳播台灣軟實力的一個效應比如說台灣Plus"},{"start":102.941,"end":125.803,"text":"比如說中央廣播電台,我想他們都有更廣大的受眾,我們覺得在這個考慮之下,我們在整個成本跟效益之間的考量之下,做一個新的調整。因為時間因素,你把我這些資料彙整一下,在東南亞三一版的一個平均的發量,讀者數,線上流量如何?"},{"start":127.584,"end":153.261,"text":"每接觸一名讀者的成本是多少那另外這一份把細節的部分來給我一份那其他的來其實如果以拓展市場的角度日本社會對台灣的認識已經夠充足了民眾對台灣本來就有相當的好感那資訊取得管道也比較多也是一個完善的市場那相對來說東南亞對台灣的認識有限"},{"start":156.323,"end":185.516,"text":"那語言隔閡相較於更重要是對中國大陸在當地宣傳力道很強反而是我們需要開拓開拓和經營的市場那外交部保留官罰雜誌日語版而停刊東南亞山語版是否在策略上已經有互相矛盾甚至可以代表外交部的策略將資源優先投在已經友好的國家而不是在"},{"start":186.116,"end":205.127,"text":"需要经营的国家所以本席请教次长外交部以光华杂志的定位是什么是文化外交还是对外宣传的工具那外交部有没有评估过如果东南亚三一版停刊了会不会影响到光华杂志所赋予的一个政策的目标你回答我"},{"start":206.388,"end":230.67,"text":"那個報告委員現在我們的整個調整語系的這個版本現在只剩下兩個就是中文跟英文而已沒有日語版日語版一樣在這一次跟這個東南亞有保留啊日語版對啊有保留啊我們現在沒有沒有日語版也沒有沒有保留沒有保留嗎對對沒有對那你報告裡面怎麼有寫保留呢"},{"start":234.582,"end":254.302,"text":"應該是沒有,我們現在就只留中文版跟英文版好,那這樣的話還算是你們有一個能見度的理解那另外就是,如果外交部打算退出東南亞生意的市場裡面,那本席也尊重"},{"start":255.923,"end":269.318,"text":"那如果還想要繼續經營本身希望了解停亢後的資源將如何重新的分配那對於東南亞受眾的溝通是否完整的有替代方案有沒有替代方案"},{"start":272.97,"end":278.514,"text":"報告委員就是這個停刊呢就是並不代表說我們那個新南向政策就沒有我們新南向政策呢各個相關部會他們都還是會繼續的執行那我們會停刊呢主要就是說我們就是看他過去這十年來不管是紙本還是線上都沒有達到預期的效益甚至呢"},{"start":298.251,"end":313.608,"text":"那現在沒有疫情的效果那你們有沒有重新檢討然後有沒有替代方案然後往哪個方向來走資源都還在那現在停刊了那你現在把那個資源要轉向哪裡替代方案是什麼你回答"},{"start":314.048,"end":330.692,"text":"我們人員都會做適度的一個規劃那另外一個東西我們會透過跟這個中央國民電台等等的這個新的這個媒體的這個合作透廣線上的一個資源由他們來專業來處理因為外交部畢竟人員有限"},{"start":331.512,"end":356.681,"text":"我們的資源也有限所以我們認為它應該做得更有限所以我們會透過跟像中央國民電台以及其他的國際發聲的管道尤其會著重於像東南亞國家的傳播上面這個我們外交部一定會持續的努力善用AI的持續的擴散力好不好那個委員說得很好我覺得我們會再努力的在本個AI的技術應用在我們的國際傳播上面"},{"start":357.961,"end":386.373,"text":"好那另外就是丹麥從2024年的3月左右開始對旅居的丹麥的台灣人居留證國際已出生地從台灣改為改成為中國那外交部近期祭出反制的一個措施取消丹麥駐台代表部分特權以禮遇那請問一下市長那過去兩年前丹麥改變措施的時候外交部為什麼開始進行"},{"start":387.974,"end":411.214,"text":"交涉了嗎?這個兩年前有沒有進行交涉?那為什麼最近才會祭出這樣一個反制的一個動作?那這樣的話是不是重矮化了我們,然後你們在兩年前有沒有進行交涉,為什麼兩年後你們才會祭出反制的一個動作?你回答這個問題"},{"start":414.214,"end":437.029,"text":"報告委員 我們事實上在兩年前就已經展開交涉而且這個交涉也是透過國會 透過行政部門以及透過他們的駐台代表都與嚴正的要求但是他們因為這段時間他都沒有任何的改善所以我們決定祭出更嚴格的限制所以這個我待會我就拿南非跟韓國的比較"},{"start":438.63,"end":460.782,"text":"南非在這樣的矮化我國的外交的時候你們就一到兩個月就取消了做提出一個反制韓國將近一年矮化我們外交事務的時候你們就取消在一年內就取消為什麼丹麥兩年以後才會做反制的動作那另外我還講一句話在賴總統在"},{"start":465.222,"end":479.61,"text":"我在同年,2024年同年的11月賴總統還接待了丹麥國會的議員訪問團並感謝他們對民主台灣的支持當時政府還沒警覺到丹麥未必真的這麼支持台灣有這麼支持嗎?"},{"start":482.532,"end":500.59,"text":"所以那個時候你們都還沒有反制的動作你們應該在之前賴總統在接待丹麥的國會議員的時候你們應該就應該告訴給賴總統說你們已經提出反制而不是在賴總統在當下告訴給丹麥的國會議員說"},{"start":506.036,"end":512.792,"text":"這個感謝他們對我們民主台灣的支持我說這個是不是相對的矛盾呢你回答我這個問題好不好"},{"start":514.211,"end":541.396,"text":"事實上我們有相當多的丹麥國會議員是有協助我們去跟他的政府溝通所以我想現在是他們丹麥行政部門的問題那事實上我們去年所以我們接待他們根本是浪費了我們國家資源嘛是不是你兩年前就要寄書然後表達對你們矮化了我們中華民國然後把我們丹麥的這一些在丹麥的這一些這個橋"},{"start":545.377,"end":569.499,"text":"我們的僑民變成了改為中國本來是台灣改為中國所以這個就是已經矮化了我們你們應該兩年前就應該有一個反制的動作現在你們才反制動作所以這個是一個你們要檢討的地方那另外就是我們一定都是對國家的立場非常的一個堅持所以我們的反應一定是第一時間會提出相關的對他們的教訓"},{"start":570.82,"end":598.733,"text":"你只要說檢討就好了不要再找理由因為這個是數據已經顯示出來是我們未來任何一個有邦交國是友好國家只要是矮化我們中華民國的時候你們就應該立刻祭出反制的動作而不是拖延你們對南非一到兩個月對南海就一年以內那為什麼單單一個丹麥你們就卻要用這樣的一個角度"},{"start":599.393,"end":620.107,"text":"現在我們要講一個反思一個動作那如果本席比較南非跟韓國和丹麥南非屬於典型的新興民主的國家經濟學人民主指數將其評為缺陷的民主民主應做正常但是品質中等邊下"},{"start":622.248,"end":633.173,"text":"那第二個,韓國同樣也被經濟學人民主指數評為切線的民主,且韓國民主政治長期受強人統治與財閥的一個影響。那我們講一個丹麥。"},{"start":637.395,"end":657.881,"text":"丹麥被長期評為完全民主那國家是非常典型且成熟的民主國家經濟發展也非常進步穩定所以這三個國家矮化我國的行為背後明顯都是與中國大陸有關那過去在我們被認知中民主制度缺陷於經濟發展對中國大陸依純度"},{"start":661.583,"end":684.365,"text":"純度高的但是丹麥顯然不屬於這樣的一個國家那外交部是否有研究為什麼丹麥會有這樣的一個舉動所以你們應該要重新思考哪一個缺陷的民主國家跟有完全民主的國家裡面我們應該努力作為我們友好邦交的國家才是啊第二個我們"},{"start":685.226,"end":702.286,"text":"部長一直推崇這個總和外交那我一直提到原民外交部長也認同所以你們要跟原民會做橫向聯繫如何要拓展在困境外交的情況之下把我們的"},{"start":703.667,"end":720.414,"text":"這個外交更能擴展要借用我們南東語系民主啊是不是是你們做了沒有你們跟原民會有橫向聯繫沒有我提到這一些你們總和外交你們部長也支持到現在沒有任何的進展把推未來的進展報告給我一份好不好"},{"start":720.894,"end":743.696,"text":"是 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就是一開始砍剩下4%而已4%而已後來近代大院有追加啦追加到最後足足的大概三成左右一點本來預算審查的時候你們那是被砍96%啦對對對如果沒有追加點預算的話沒有追加預算的話你們要用這4%的經費"},{"start":193.923,"end":211.287,"text":"維持去年一年,也就算了,今年你們還要照這4%下去運作是這個意思,謝謝委員,點出這個重大問題後來增加之後你們大概差不多要三成了,30%啦30%你看你們該做的齁,我看你們115年度你們所提出的預算是3億2400萬左右嘛"},{"start":218.069,"end":236.614,"text":"那但是你們按照這個預算法第五四條你們可以動資的剩下一億兩千一億零二萬是對不對三億變一億啊對只剩一億了一億多出頭而已這個吼這個包括你們的一般行政包括你們這個議事業務包括你們財產申報業務國家人權業務"},{"start":239.745,"end":267.948,"text":"這些我還不談資本門喔就光經常門就幾乎是動彈不得了啦動彈不得其實這裡面也包含很多我們的同仁的工作上的需要譬如說電費啦等等這些環境的維護啊我現在一向這些喔有一些東西大家辛苦我都要去很辛苦啦你們那些水電也什麼都沒得運作那這個都還是歧視你們有一些真正嚴重的"},{"start":269.67,"end":272.113,"text":"問題我今天就是要跟你談這些嚴重的問題第一個我們監察院齁我們按照這個"},{"start":282.373,"end":301.48,"text":"資通安全管理辦法按照資通安全管理辦法他授權的這個資通安全責任等級分級辦法我們監察院是是屬於什麼樣的機關哪一級的A級A級自安A級的機關自安A級為什麼我們監察院有什麼什麼重要我們的資訊安全的重要性在哪裡"},{"start":301.82,"end":324.059,"text":"跟大院報告我們監察人在調查這些案件的時候例如許多案件牽扯到國家的重要機密包括國防機密以及國安機密在內所以最後這些機密資料都以機密的方式傳遞給我們之後我們也必須要保存在院裡面尤其許多也是在電腦系統裡面"},{"start":325.88,"end":344.32,"text":"這就有資安上面我們要維護 如果沒有足夠的經費建立足夠的防火牆等相關的防護機制的時候在資安上面也會造成許多的 不只是這些防火牆等等這些問題我這邊法規我秀出來了 按照這個自動安全責任等級辦法第四條"},{"start":345.701,"end":359.349,"text":"資通安全等級你們是A級A級是什麼第一個你剛剛講的涉及業務涉及國家機密這是剛剛講的包括很多有國防機密等等另外業務涉及全國性民眾服務及跨公務機關共用性質"},{"start":362.671,"end":383.418,"text":"的資通系統陳情人的個資再來就是個資陳情人公務員所有的個資都在你們電腦裡面我們監察院的資安是被列為A級這是全國最重要的但是不只你剛剛講的防火牆你按照這個資通安全等級辦法他第11條的這個付表"},{"start":386.104,"end":397.046,"text":"他有要求你們這些A7機關有很多事情要做啊不只是防火牆啊你們要必須要全部核心自動系統要導入CNS27001或者是ISO的27001"},{"start":399.179,"end":424.16,"text":"你們必須要獲得這些軟硬體授權你們還必須做這個完成第三方驗證這是依法法定你們資通安全該做的事情委員非常專業這都是我們資安上面必須要去達標的但是這些都需要預算來協助同仁去建置起來那怎麼辦才有足夠的安全性那今年怎麼辦我們的資安長來跟您回應一下"},{"start":426.831,"end":440.472,"text":"報告委員其實就是向委員所秀出來的我們是A級機關我們有這樣子的法定義務那去年因為都沒有任何的預算所以本來我們應該做ISO認證的去年就沒有處理所以去年就沒有做了沒有處理"},{"start":440.953,"end":462.034,"text":"一年沒有做 今年有辦法做嗎我們就是因為有一點點的追加所以我們用追加的預算 趕快今年再把它處理可以全部處理嗎 我剛講認證第三棒 認證這些授權今年我們要做 我們一定要做你們這個齁 這個就是"},{"start":465.08,"end":486.815,"text":"我們法律要求我們監察院我們的治安必須要做到最高等級但是我們立法院卻給你們最低幾乎是零預算了簡單講幾乎是幾乎不給你們這個自動安全的預算我們即使是依照去年的執行數三成可是我們每個月的動資數也是有限所以在這個部分我們還是明顯不足"},{"start":489.036,"end":515.732,"text":"其他政府機關大家省吃儉用大家就維持基本運作可以是因為沒有像你們監察院被砍到剩下三成你們這三成 結果你們去年三成就已經已經幾乎無法營運了今年還要再維持這樣子的執行數資訊 我講這個資訊安全 另外這牽涉到我們所有所有我們監察院頭 不管我們"},{"start":516.912,"end":528.402,"text":"在野黨立委怎麼樣看待監察院監察委員的職權但是我們監察院有這麼多的公務人員在監察院裡面上班有關於消防安全消防安全的預算"},{"start":531.387,"end":556.64,"text":"對 我們這個消防設備已經大概是27年前的非常老 民國76年到將近60年的老舊 40年的老舊設備了所以這個設備本來是預計在去年要進行更新啦我看你們預算是4300萬被砍 被砍掉之後這個案子沒辦法做所以有時候就會產生一些消防上的疑慮這個齁"},{"start":559.501,"end":588.264,"text":"監察院非常特殊啦我們立法院你說中心大樓怎麼樣就算你們監察院還是古蹟啊是古蹟啊你們去年一年沒有經費維護這個古蹟一年兩年今年再按照去年的預算執行數還是沒有辦法維持這個古蹟再加上消防安全牽涉到所有在裡面工作的公務人員的這個性命安全結果我們立法院這樣子"},{"start":590.758,"end":614.356,"text":"這樣子在虐待我們這些在現場上班公務人員真的要請大院在預算上面來體恤到我們在現場工作的所有同仁他的業務上的需要 他的環境安全衛生的需要 請大院多支持辦公環境的安全 消防的防護 基本設施的維護更遑論你們是個古蹟"},{"start":616.486,"end":625.839,"text":"這種公共安全的需求它是有即時性的而且如果一發生任何的意外我們監察院真的是會非常的遺憾這個剛剛講資安消防這個都是你們監察院的人"},{"start":635.523,"end":641.848,"text":"秘書長,今年是選舉,去年有沒有選舉?去年沒有選舉今年是選舉年啊,選舉年你們多了多少業務?政治獻金還有所謂財產申報相關的業務按照政治獻金法你們就是受理政治獻金申報的機關啊"},{"start":657.813,"end":662.896,"text":"沒有選舉你們就沒有這個業務但是今年是選舉年按照過去的選舉我調了107年107年這個政治現金專戶就2305戶111年有2306戶"},{"start":678.544,"end":703.192,"text":"我們今年大概會有一萬多個候選人 預估啦一萬多個候選人對 一萬多個候選人 每個人都要但是你們只能按照去年的預算來執行 去年有這條預算嗎都砍掉了那怎麼辦 我們的這些政治獻金大家就可以隨便報在這裡先預告所有的候選人 今年監察院沒有預算可以審大家的政治獻金了大家隨便報也不會像柯文哲這種下場啦"},{"start":704.349,"end":729.404,"text":"是這樣嗎我們還是會盡力去維護但是要真的請大院給予支持讓這筆預算能夠通過讓我們能夠在今年年底大選的時候政治現金相關的審查能夠落實再加上還有就是所有公職人員的財產申報能夠落實那當然這就是屬於候選人以及公職人員的權利在這裡利用這個機會因為我們監察院"},{"start":733.286,"end":746.821,"text":"要來這個立法院列席的機會並不多所以我今天利用這個機會我事實上希望說我們委員會大家所有不分黨派的委員大家可以理解這不是你們政治立場上面你們"},{"start":747.996,"end":768.851,"text":"你們對憲政機關有什麼意見而是這裡面我剛剛所講的這些資訊安全這些消防安全甚至今年選舉年有關政治獻金跟這個財產申報的這些相關事務今年選舉年去年的預算去年就算預算完成百分之百通過今年還是要多這些業務結果現在只能動用預算的30%"},{"start":775.188,"end":790.048,"text":"所以我是在這裡成人也讓社會大家了解目前今年入的中央政府總預算到現在還不審查到現在還不審查連協商都不協商它所造成的後果"},{"start":791.857,"end":813.887,"text":"所造成的後果我們在監察院上面看得最最最清楚啦他對國家安全對於對於這個國家資訊安全對於這整個選舉的這些這些陽光法案的執行他的影響之大在這裡希望齁我們本委員會的委員齁大家能夠有共同有所提認啦齁大家黨派立場不同沒關係一切以國家為重啦齁謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168537","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168537","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ec77822e2e6eae390d6dd57f0a0277cba64134b0f452f2e25bca6d85ad377ffe4b6af63088ab7755ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"09:38:55 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主席謝謝 麻煩請交通部陳部長請陳部長好 部長好今天我們討論到是中東情勢國際油價飆升對於航空業者的這個衝擊那當然首當其衝就是說運輸這個衝擊絕對不要影響到民生但另外一方面因為整體你們報告不管是海陸空等相關的運輸現在"},{"start":32.08,"end":45.425,"text":"都面臨到一個問題就是都是政府不管是補貼或是中油來吸收那每個禮拜一這一個我也在財政委員會有問過但是沒有辦法得到答案就是說那我們如果說假設中東戰事持續延燒"},{"start":46.758,"end":60.625,"text":"沒有人說的準它什麼時候結束那我們能夠補貼或是說我們的臨界點到底在哪裡有沒有一個預期的心理不要讓社會大眾造成恐慌我們也不希望讓社會大眾突然間措手無措"},{"start":62.666,"end":90.301,"text":"守足無錯來請部長說明一下 像委員報告目前我們就是依照行政院的要求跟指示我們對於整體的國內的公共運輸的票價我們會做不調整的這個作為可以到什麼時候不調整到什麼時候像委員報告我們目前所規劃出來的除了到年底是一個版本之外另外針對明年的一整年就是116年的部分我們有提出我們的預算的需求如果要做兩年比如說到116年底"},{"start":90.881,"end":114.102,"text":"整體的這個補貼的措施的話要讓國內的公共運輸平穩的話其實我們有提出一個預算上面的需求那就看到時候行政院對於預算的安排怎麼去安排好所以我們先講因為現在四月嘛到今年年底不管油價怎麼樣飆升不管中東站是怎麼樣的演變我們都不會調漲我們的陸海公運輸的票價目前我們國內的公共運輸我們的政策上是不調漲的"},{"start":115.242,"end":143.613,"text":"確定因為部長其實國際原油的價格現在你的報告裡面以及我們各部會報告裡面都來到一桶132美金而這一次的中東戰士更創下了144美金也就是有國際原油價格交易以來歷史新高另外一方面現在看到的這個燃油的一個價格航空燃油的價格它是翻倍成長翻倍"},{"start":145.154,"end":173.813,"text":"所以說本席才會問的是說那到目前為止我們的因應規劃即便中東戰事持續的這個延燒我們都有信心能夠在今年年底以前國內的運輸不管是高鐵台鐵以及公路客運都不調漲像委員報告行政院的政策是這個方向沒有錯所以交通部會照這個方向來執行好那我們就是要看你那另外我們也要說那這樣子如果預估要多少成本"},{"start":174.993,"end":192.902,"text":"我們過去這一年過去這一個多月的時間已經花出了多少我們的預算我們到明年底如果估算到明年底的預算是差不多85億我先問的是這一個月這一個月就是2月28號到現在我們相關的補貼或是相關的吸收"},{"start":193.988,"end":221.067,"text":"目前我們有實際落實到補貼需要補貼的部分只有空運的部分空運的油價的部分因為我們請中油公司協助我們從44塊的油價調降到28塊所以目前都還是中油公司吸收大部分所以說中油公司才會想是說他過去這一個月已經破百億的一個成本吸收那未來我們交通部這邊會有跟中油公司還是全部都讓中油公司這邊來接收"},{"start":222.328,"end":237.663,"text":"在航空燃油的部分我們目前是拜託中油公司先幫我們調降那個價格但實際上我們到最後會編列預算來還給這個中油公司也就是說由交通部這邊來做補貼因為即便是國內線的航空燃油到目前為止也都是歷史新高"},{"start":239.205,"end":252.904,"text":"過去我看了中油的這個數據裡面國內線的航空的燃油到44塊以往沒有超過40塊的所以現在是歷史新高嘛所以未來交通部也會編列預算再給中油公司這個沒有問題 這個我們會做"},{"start":254.426,"end":274.365,"text":"那另外我們看到是韓國政府有祭出節能政策也就是說要現行公共機關的車輛並且頒布12項的節能行動之意那卓榮泰院長之前被問到的時候也有講是說政府應該帶頭開源節流就是要對外的車輛出入都要盡量精簡"},{"start":275.126,"end":295.641,"text":"我想請教那身為我們中央主管機關交通部我們對於公務部門體系說出入車輛盡量精簡我們具體措施跟要求跟辦法是什麼像委員報告目前沒有訂定這樣子的辦法但大家都有這樣的默契但是卓榮和院長就講是說要盡量精簡但是沒有任何的措施辦法"},{"start":296.277,"end":305.44,"text":"我們目前有盡量在精簡好來那我請教一下今天那麼多的部會但是大部分都是交通部的同仁嘛剛有沒有共成來的首長"},{"start":307.438,"end":332.352,"text":"首長有沒有共成來部長有沒有邀請哪一個司長跟你一起坐車司長他們都是共成來的現在都有要求要共成因為我出發的地點跟他們不一樣所以沒有辦法共成不是從交通部過來我剛剛不是從交通部過來所以本席要講的就是說現在就是卓榮泰院長講了一個說你要盡量精簡但實際上沒有相關的辦法跟作為"},{"start":333.453,"end":357.731,"text":"你身為中央主管機構我們看到韓國確實因為中東油價不是我們能夠控制但我們要的是說要大家可以盡量訂出辦法那我們已經看到韓國了他講是說頒布12項的節能行動指引縮短淋浴時間白天充電供部門車輛上路分流管制那我想請教交通部是不是應該也要對於這種全民運動的部分帶頭做起"},{"start":358.792,"end":383.264,"text":"以身作則是不是要訂立相關的政策研擬如果說中東再次持續延燒的話我們要怎麼做如果委員您所說的是交通部必須要自己先做的話這個部分我們正在執行當中那有沒有辦法由我們這邊來制定一個辦法要求整個政府機關或者是民眾大家來配合這個我也覺得委員的建議蠻好所以我們來研議這個方面看怎麼樣去呼籲大家盡量節能那這個部分我們會跟經濟部一起來做"},{"start":385.925,"end":411.037,"text":"公務車輛盡量精簡啦但是不要只有口號沒有具體的作為本期過去到現在都一直強調的是我們要務實不是務虛不是說只是喊口號所以說這一點是本期要提出來那你如果說要研議相關辦法給行政院來做參考甚至說廣泛的話什麼時候可以研議出來給我們一個月的時間我們來跟行政院這邊來一個月好本期看您一個月的時間最後部長"},{"start":412.097,"end":428.883,"text":"還是強調這個所謂的中國大陸對台的十個政策本席剛剛有看到您有在外面受訪有講到說感染者有可能會變成棒子所以你現在認為說這個中國大陸對台的十個政策他算是現階段算感染者還算棒子"},{"start":429.904,"end":456.781,"text":"是橄欖枝是棒子其實我看不太出來因為對於我們來說你不認為它是橄欖枝這樣說好了台灣目前到中國大陸要去做自由行的我們完全沒有限制我們的國民任何人要去都可以是嗎不管怎麼樣今天是中國大陸這邊提出來那本席沒有要我現在在強調的是說我是想確認交通部的態度因為我們看到很多的觀光旅遊住宿飯店餐飲運輸業者"},{"start":458.362,"end":485.494,"text":"也都很期待兩岸有春農花開的時候當然你一定會講的是說我們有多元市場我們有開放觀光但是很現實的層面過去我們觀光客能破千萬是有三四百萬名的入客那我現在想要請教的就是說有業者也認為是說近年我方各種推脫閃躲技術刁難簡而言之啊雙方是沒有互信想談也沒有辦法起頭這是業者"},{"start":486.704,"end":514.704,"text":"媒體報導直接就報導觀光旅遊飯店業者的這個說法那我只是想請教現在對方丟了一個球第一我們官方的態度認為這是感染之嗎我們我剛剛回到我剛剛所說的話題對於自由行台灣是沒有任何限制那我們目前看到中國開放了上海跟福建可以來台灣自由行那如果這叫善意的話那請問一下上海跟福建以外的他的限制算惡意嗎"},{"start":516.298,"end":528.328,"text":"會不會是另外一種而已 假設上海跟福建佔他們總體國民的十分之一那他目前還佔 禁了 禁止了 十分之九那到底是誰比較有善意 我看應該是我們比較有善意吧"},{"start":529.698,"end":546.633,"text":"對 部長你完全搞錯這個問題的重點我現在只想問的是說你認不認為說他現在的做法是感染之如果是的話可以進一步談我現在想要確認這是官方的立場跟態度就是說如果說因為這樣子的一個動作兩邊可以有譬如說丟球接球"},{"start":547.894,"end":555.718,"text":"對於觀光旅遊飯店住宿業者他們也有所期待但如果說今天官方的態度就是我們不願意接求或是我們認為說這不是橄欖枝的話那當然我們也可以直接讓我們的業者知道是說我們不認為嘛所以現在重點在於是說你覺得是不是橄欖枝要不要後續有溝通的程序啟動"},{"start":568.945,"end":580.37,"text":"因為過去他們時常把橄欖枝當棍子在用所以我現在無法判斷但您說的啟動其實我們早就啟動我講過好多次我們回到小兩會的談判現在資深的旅遊業者就講說小兩會是談團體的旅"},{"start":584.652,"end":610.662,"text":"但是大陸是開放自由行的旅客為什麼要透過小兩會是要談什麼根本就是開放就可以做到的事所以附入的集團力的理由根本就是什麼理由都有這個就是媒體報導如果說你認為媒體報導是錯誤的請你更正但我們現在看到的地方就是說對於七成或說第一線的旅遊人士來講他們當然希望"},{"start":611.602,"end":625.532,"text":"在我們捍衛中華民國主權立場的情況下能夠更開大門走大路過去2008年到2016年嘛政府時代可以做的事情為什麼民進黨政府沒有辦法做那還有就是我們為什麼沒有辦法能夠有更春暖花開的時候所以這一點才是官方的立場跟態度現在是讓我們覺得模糊不清讓夜神知道說有沒有機會有春暖花開的時候一定可以春暖花開"},{"start":640.624,"end":664.648,"text":"不要口惠食不至啦我真的只能講是說不要口惠食不至就如同剛剛講的不管是公務車的這個精簡政策到目前為止沒有落實任何辦法那現在不要口惠而食不至我今天代表是希望我們所有飯店旅遊住宿觀光餐飲業者真的能夠有開大門走大路的時候這是國內所有旅遊業者的期待謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168536","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168536","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ec77822e2e6eae384b529207de80545ba64134b0f452f2e25bca6d85ad377ffe4b6af63088ab7755ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李昆澤","委員發言時間":"09:25:57 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請一下中油公司董事長 方董事長 能源署有代理署長交通部陳士凱部長 以及林福山林局長請林局長我們請代理署長"},{"start":22.876,"end":41.071,"text":"我先請教一下中油公司方董事長針對我們燃料供應的穩定以及價格的問題當然是國人目前很關注的一個議題確保供應方面當然國際的處理的慣例大概就是尋找替代的路線"},{"start":42.112,"end":57.771,"text":"或是其他的國家的供應的來源那我記得方董事長在4月8號也說過中油也在處理相關的替代的路線在協調之中以及其他的供應來源那目前的進度狀況是如何來請說明一下"},{"start":59.319,"end":85.155,"text":"我也好說明一下替代的來源從非洲這邊以及在地中海區域或者是在澳洲都是我們尋找的一個替代的來源那這部分也有一些成就包含了就是從亞塞拜蘭包含了從阿曼這邊或者是澳洲這邊當然美國是我們原油進口的一個主要的來源"},{"start":86.297,"end":104.19,"text":"那麼替代的路線的部分,因為我們從沙烏地阿拉伯買的原油還佔了蠻多的比例,但是原油沒辦法出來,所以沙烏地阿拉伯就拉一條管線,它有管線是到鴻海這邊可以輸出的。"},{"start":105.191,"end":120.875,"text":"那這邊我們也跟他陸續在接洽看我們的原油輪能不能從紅海這邊裝運以後呢從曼德海峽這邊出來好 也要請黃董事長確保這些相關來源的穩定以及替代路線的一個協調的狀況必須要來穩定相關的這些狀況"},{"start":125.296,"end":144.745,"text":"那我請教一下能源署有待的署長我們相關的油價平穩機制以及天然氣的這種平穩機制目前的運作狀況以及具體的措施來說明一下跟委員報告一下這個中油公司它一直以來都是用我們所謂的亞林最低的價格"},{"start":145.325,"end":165.436,"text":"好那這一次因為中東事件發生以後也經過院理協調我們還另外發展出一個叫專案平穩的機制那專案平穩機制的部分中油供至少吸收60%以上那所以在這次以最近這幾次以來應該這幾週基本上都沒有做過相關的油價的調整那以上報告"},{"start":165.896,"end":180.414,"text":"好 這個要確保油價以及天然氣的來源的確定跟價格的一個穩定這個這個能源署責任是非常重大的好 我們會繼續持續的滾動兩位先請回座休息我請教一下陳士凱部長"},{"start":182.905,"end":203.716,"text":"當然受到戰爭的影響國際油價上漲有一定的趨勢雖然目前我們極力的穩定相關的價格以及確保來源的一個穩定但是戰爭的狀況在目前這種國際局勢多變的狀況之下仍然是呈現一個不穩定的狀況"},{"start":205.782,"end":230.684,"text":"目前中油跟能源署也進行相關的平穩機制來維持民生的油價我們在客運的部分 陸運的部分 包含公路客運以及計程車公路客運是大眾運輸 計程車是準大眾運輸工具尤其是計程車 大概全國有9萬多台"},{"start":232.325,"end":248.898,"text":"使用燃油的大概八萬九千多台我們看到相關的在過去我們相關的這些補貼的政策近年來總共啟動了三次包含2008年、2014年跟2016年都有啟動相關的這些補貼的這樣的一個做法"},{"start":255.023,"end":267.967,"text":"那其實在四年前的俄烏戰爭也有啟動相關的討論那當時最後是公路客運我記得是公路客運有補貼計程車這個方面因為還沒有到達一定的這樣的一個衝擊的狀態所以就沒有補貼那"},{"start":272.591,"end":300.146,"text":"公路客運的部分我記得我們考慮油價的這種上漲當然它有一個調整的機制就是準基本票價來做一個補貼就是要跟工會以及相關的這些部門大家討論之後來進行對票價的一個補貼來請林武山局長說明一下我們這次有做這樣的一個規劃"},{"start":305.28,"end":322.175,"text":"確實公路客運的部分 沉入剛剛委員所提的一個部分那因應油價的部分公路客運本身的費率裡面有內建這個因應油價臨時費率調漲機制就是CRF那這個CRF的部分是按照月平均的才有價格來做一個處理"},{"start":322.916,"end":349.813,"text":"那目前大概就是說以3月1號到3月底這個平均才有價格大概是28.3那但是目前這個CRF調整的這個門檻大概是29.6那相信大概這個如果以4月份的這個平均價格的話大概在5月就會碰到那這個部分的話我相信公會大概會啟動這個CRF這樣子的一個這一個機制那未來他們送進來的時候那我們會跟這個公"},{"start":352.194,"end":377.64,"text":"工會來做一個討論會依照程序來做處理他有一個匯率的調整機制當然啦是由政府來補貼相關的票價的這些落差那相關的我們預計啊如果說這半年公路客運相關的除了時程之外除了機制之外相關的經費來源啊你們有沒有做過評估大概需要多少錢"},{"start":379.361,"end":404.602,"text":"這個部分大概有試算過如果說以5月到今年12月按照這樣子這個因為我跟各位報告一下如果啟動的話大概就是超過29.6就要啟動但是下一次再啟動的話就要那個油價就要平均達到39點多那所以如果按照這個5月份這樣子來啟動到這個12月的話大概今年所需要的經費大概是1.21億"},{"start":406.684,"end":431.957,"text":"大概一億左右啦那現在我們討論到計程車計程車有八萬九千多輛都是燃油的這些汽車那他們也非常的辛苦他也是准大眾運輸工具那我們在過去都是採取油價責讓就是發行油卡讓他們直接來進行抵扣那相關的這一次的機制有沒有納入計程車"},{"start":432.737,"end":437.151,"text":"那相關的預算大概要多少 你有沒有先進行評估"},{"start":438.803,"end":462.628,"text":"像委員報告這個部分其實都在公共運輸的同一包包含說這個公路客運包含計程車的部分我們是整體都在做討論那公路的部分剛剛局長已經有回答過大概1.211一直到年底那計程車的部分我們如果以過去的這個補貼的方式1公升5塊錢的這個補貼的方式來試算的話大概一個月我們大概評估補貼400公升的這個油價"},{"start":464.608,"end":477.146,"text":"也就是一位計程車司機一個月差不多是兩千塊左右以過去 我說的是過去啦如果是以那個機制來推的話現在如果要來推行的話一個月大概是1.9億左右的這個預算必須要來質疑"},{"start":478.24,"end":496.026,"text":"那整體來說在今年如果從五月開始大概就需要大概十億以上的相關的預算大概就是接近這個數字所以我們現在整體都在估算因為包含這個公路客運包含計程車包含其他的公共運輸體系在內我們整體都在做檢討"},{"start":497.986,"end":526.499,"text":"另外部長我要提醒你我們是用海空運輸當然常常需要到他國來進行油料的一個補充那在油料價格跟供應穩定方面它其實更容易受到波動的一個影響導致運輸成本的增加那相關的運輸成本也會連帶的影響到進口的原料的原物料的這些價格所以在民生油料的補貼之外"},{"start":527.259,"end":544.074,"text":"我們也要針對海空運輸的成本要進行觀測來研究是否相關的成本補助我們有沒有可以協助的一個空間而且要確保這些國際原物料運輸的品質跟它的一個價格的穩定"},{"start":544.815,"end":570.838,"text":"那這個部分部長簡單說明一下我們有沒有做這樣的一個先期的規劃不管是空運或者是海運的部分我們都密切在關注整體油價對於運價的這個影響那委員剛剛所關心的例如說進口的這個原物料成本會不會因此而增加目前看起來進口的這個原物料的這個運費它提漲的這個幅度相當的低不高反而是出口的成長的比較高那空運的部分目前聽起來"},{"start":572.199,"end":600.737,"text":"不管是進口或出口啦空運的部分當然進口跟出口的量也不多但其實目前的這個調漲的幅度都是業者可以接受的範圍之內所以目前對於物價的影響應該不大部長我要提醒你要跟公共工程委員會密切的聯繫就是說讓物價的平穩機制能夠確實的落行之外要確保短期之內我們這些價格波動不要影響到公共工程的品質跟它相關的一個期程是"},{"start":601.437,"end":617.625,"text":"那最後我覺得我們要建立多元能源的一個供應的方式各交通領域直接受影響的程度當然不一直接影響的當然有私人運具或者是客戶運的部分"},{"start":618.365,"end":642.147,"text":"那間接影響當然是像電力台鐵高鐵等等的這些軌道設施但是國際燃料供應跟價格波動他當然會影響到電力的供需以及相關的價格那交通部其實應該是要減少燃料的供應依賴啦要減少依賴建立多元能源的一個供應的管道提高這種"},{"start":643.43,"end":668.443,"text":"承擔能源風險的一個能力那台電報告在這種場站要建立再生能源發電的系統跟搭配微電網可以在電力中斷的時候提供必要的這種電力的供應那目前交通部各場站的這種多元能源的這種供應進度交通部有沒有進行相關的規劃來說明一下"},{"start":669.904,"end":690.634,"text":"像委員報告這個部分其實我們都有做相關的討論跟規劃那目前委員在提的這個微電網的部分在能源有需求或中斷的時候可以再做電力供應像我們的電動巴士的這個場站他們大概有一些場站有做這樣子的設置有做這樣的設計那其他的部分我們還陸續在推廣當中"},{"start":691.815,"end":711.047,"text":"最後我有幾個建議就是說我們各交通系統的廠站在設計階段要納入節能的設計改建階段將建物的節能也要納入考量現有的廠站我們要如何增進這種能源自主例如很多廠站可以設置這種屋頂的"},{"start":712.228,"end":740.713,"text":"太陽能板以及都市熱能的回收等等那我們各運輸系統也要必須妥善的利用相關的廠站的空間這都是我們交通部跟各部門必須要全力的一個推動的一個政策方向最後讓部長再簡單說明一下是 報告委員尤其您所提到的這個太陽能板的部分其實我們都陸續在推動包含您看得到的我們交通體系的廠站幾乎能夠裝的盡量都裝那還有就是我們"},{"start":742.173,"end":759.274,"text":"高速公路的服務區服務區現在也開始大量在裝置這個太陽能板我們也要盡量朝向能源自主的部分這個我們正在努力要確保相關的對於公共運輸的這種穩定都是交通部重要的責任好 謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"168519","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168519","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ec77822e2e6eae36c20f9acc83fad5044e7435d00e85120957eaa2632da1fa1328f139af069e70d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡春綢","委員發言時間":"09:33:55 - 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制度到底有沒有被切實來執行 該做的有沒有及時去做也反映出目前在受理之後 要怎麼啟動 多久要處理 這些都是我們之後要來檢討的"},{"start":201.067,"end":221.767,"text":"第三就是教育部前次長葉秉成涉及到性平案件資訊揭露爭議葉秉成以2025年4月在社群平台發文評論性平事件因文中截圖涉及當事人可辨識資訊而引發爭議"},{"start":224.669,"end":237.821,"text":"其實最終被認定違反性平等教育法能遭台北市政府社會級認定違反性侵害犯罪環制法保密規定並裁罰這個案例提醒我們"},{"start":240.783,"end":256.906,"text":"在性平事件中知性要怎麼樣處理隱私要怎麼樣保護其實都有很大的一個改善空間綜合這三個案例可以整理出三個核心的問題第一就是處理程序是不是過"},{"start":258.027,"end":283.739,"text":"完整 過合法 經得起考驗第二 處理是不是能夠即時不會拖延 不會消極作為第三 當事人的資訊有沒有被好好的保護避免二次傷害因為看到這些問題我本人跟台灣民眾黨黨團這次提出修法我們希望能夠做到三件事情"},{"start":284.699,"end":300.676,"text":"一 讓性平事件處理程序更清楚 更公正二 讓處理時間能夠更明確 更避免拖延三 也讓文書跟資訊的一個隱私保護能夠更到位那性平"},{"start":302.811,"end":326.381,"text":"平等交易法的一個修法的目的是要讓制度更被信任而不是增加第一線的負擔更不是製造新的問題那在這裡也要跟各位來分享我本人本身是一位體育老師那體育老師在教學過程裡面有很多是要做示範動作的那在做示範動作的過程要保護"},{"start":329.402,"end":342.355,"text":"要讓學生來做這樣的一個技能的練習的時候常常會做一些比較技術性的一個動作的時候老師必須要做一個保護所以以我個人的教學的經驗我們就會研發一些"},{"start":348.8,"end":365.745,"text":"就是助教學效果一些功績來幫助同學能夠順利來學習這樣一個技能因為體育老師的風險最大因為有很多是必須肢體的一個接觸的所以呢在這個高風險的一個"},{"start":367.666,"end":392.925,"text":"的一个环境里面体育老师其实他也是要自保那我们希望呢不要让体育老师呢不敢教学那当然了我们希望说透过教育部能够研发更多的关于技能科的一些教学呢他需要很多有肢体接触的的一些教学呢有一些补助的一个教计来让体育老师能够"},{"start":393.325,"end":397.608,"text":"很多技能科的老師能夠用以來把他們的一個技能能夠發揮出來能讓我們的學生真正能夠學到技能這個我也想說希望教育部這邊能夠做一個研發最後也誠懇請在座的各位專家學者以及代表能夠提供專業的意見還有實務的經驗在未來在審查法案的時候本人跟台灣民眾黨團一定會把各位的建議"},{"start":423.385,"end":423.865,"text":"好 非常感谢"}]}},{"id":"168518","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168518","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ec77822e2e6eae3cc13891cf1d5e9a6354b0245b1feb432957eaa2632da1fa1bf58e434f61d1a005ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"09:30:46 - 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Gym健身中心四處開是不是這樣子所以我認為黃次長的答案比較接近跟我一樣我不是說你們另外兩個錯好所以經濟部跟國發會今天召委排了這麼重要的題目我相信召委心中也有他的答案"},{"start":126.954,"end":153.72,"text":"但是對運動產業定義為何涉及到我們的產業政策往下看來競技觀賞型的運動產業職棒很典型有觀眾入場有門票修路有球場營運舉辦賽事有周邊產業有紀念商品有運動產品好那哪一種是產業上面的是產業嗎上面是產業啊上面有收入嗎下面呢下面是製造業但是呢很多都不是台灣自己的還是運動產業不限定是觀賞型跟競技型的往下看"},{"start":154.48,"end":173.634,"text":"所以我們來看一下生病就醫全民健保那我們發展的是什麼醫療藥品醫材主委是不是這樣子如果我們生病就醫全民健保後我們後面這三個會出來嗎會但是如果我們要運動促進身體健康提升體適能弱方預防醫學是不是就跑出了另外一個叫做運動健康產業"},{"start":174.895,"end":198.022,"text":"我看後面黃次長點頭點得很用力請問就醫或運動哪一個是真正的健康主委如果給你選你要選擇就醫還是選擇運動運動當然啊所以就在這裡嘛好往下看所以呢我們要提高人口品質提高人口競爭力擴大發展運動健康產業提升我們的健康餘命就可以提高我們人口的健康品質對不對那如果我們的健康餘命提升我們全民的全生涯的生產力會不會提高"},{"start":199.371,"end":221.902,"text":"所以這是增加我們全國人口的生產競爭力所以如果運動產業可以變成運動健康產業提高健康餘命請問國安法有沒有做過統計可以提升多少競爭力減少多少醫療資源的損耗有沒有做過研究這個部分還沒有但是還沒有趕快做但是我們國發基金其實是有在想說預防醫學這一塊其實是可以推廣一下"},{"start":222.182,"end":242.037,"text":"但是今天呢我們不談醫學我們談運動這是我們召委排這個題目的意思所以我想把運動跟健康連在一起事實上是可以對國會來講是對國家的目標之一好不好好接下來往下看來我們請教一下何市長好我們運動健康產業製造跟服務兼顧你來看一下讓你來猜猜看何市長"},{"start":242.617,"end":256.846,"text":"如果我們擴大發展運動健康產業製造業是不是有一些穿戴裝置會有一些體能的監測儀器這是經濟部熟悉的產業面嘛對不對但是在服務面上會有健康管理的需求對不對會有專業教練服務對不對請問這個部分經濟部使得上利嗎"},{"start":258.604,"end":283.223,"text":"這個部分其實我們現在有一些業者好像比較是跟運動部跟教育部有關嘛是但是我們也有結合這些醫療機構做一些比方說健康管理平台是所以你發現如果在服務面上好像有點脫離了經濟部擅長的製造業的範疇進入到商業服務業的領域需要運動部跟教育部共同合作包括人才的培養包括一些標準的制定對不對"},{"start":286.965,"end":314.434,"text":"對後面廠長又點頭了因為標準的制定是他們運動部的好往下看所以呢我來請教一下你知不知道有個商業發展研究院對你知道他們有做過這個嗎運動健康產業的發展嗎他們去東京考察他們還提供了建言請問經濟部有沒有收到這份報告商業發展研究院他的運動健康的智慧服務研究所協助政府推動運動大健康產業有沒有我回去了解一下回去了解有啦有給經濟部只是呢很遺憾的往下看來請問一下"},{"start":316.638,"end":344.585,"text":"市長 你知道工研院一年的預算規模多少嗎294億我寫出來了嘛 應該跟你人人差不多嘛經濟部貢獻多少相當多嘛非常多啦沒錯 你知道商業院的預算規模多少嗎上面寫3億元零頭都不到啊可是我們看一下工業人口占全國多少 3乘5啊服務業人口呢 6乘5啊經濟部 你會不會覺得對這兩個你的智庫你是不是要稍微再多掐牆哪一個"},{"start":345.609,"end":351.911,"text":"所以我們今天談運動產業不要狹隘的定義在競技型觀賞型的運動要思考到對國家競爭力生產力有幫助的這個國發下去好我的結論兩位"},{"start":366.494,"end":387.612,"text":"國外評估 運動健康產業可以提升多少人口競爭力 減少多少醫療資源 可不可以評估可以嗎 國發會 來 大概可不可以給我一個報告 簡單的報告很快的給我 讓我知道你們有在進行研究好 我們那個會後我們大概多久 一個月 兩個月 三個月 一年 兩年 三年一個月好不好好 可以了 如果你三年的話就要偏年任了好 一個月 好 那拜託 來 何市長"},{"start":388.653,"end":403.284,"text":"那如果善用智庫除了公園之外你要不要好好的運用一下商園院好可以嗎 可以增加對他投資嗎我們回去再很簡單會就好了嘛你增加一塊錢我也接受啊是 我們當然就會對這些智庫單位都會做這個支持好 你說會我就會好 謝謝那謝謝黃次長給標準答案謝謝 謝謝主委時間掌握非常精確"}]}},{"id":"168522","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168522","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ec77822e2e6eae3b5045539de68235b8ea785098ebfecd5957eaa2632da1fa16b54fa05dac5ead05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳菁徽","委員發言時間":"09:29:51 - 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謝謝各位委員還有官員下一位我想請石部長還有杜署長請石總理部長 杜立華署長好 委員早"},{"start":18.859,"end":38.173,"text":"謝謝部長跟署長我想你們也注意到了4月10號你們在開會的時候外面有非常多這個爸爸媽媽帶他們的毛小孩直播看著你們的開會那我今天想問這一兩週引起這麼多的軒然大波有這麼多人在網路上發文串聯造成這一次這麼大的爭議還有民怨"},{"start":39.654,"end":52.354,"text":"最大的問題是你們所公布的這個管理辦法不夠貼近動物的臨床醫療那兩位是不是覺得這樣子7月1號貿然公布要上路兩位是否要為此而道歉呢"},{"start":55.132,"end":83.925,"text":"跟委員說明這個事實上是起源在102年的時候那麼一個檢舉案件開始那麼主要是涉及到這個藥事法裡面關於人用藥品的使用有一些規定供應也有一些限制那麼才引發這樣在這個人用藥品流到這個動物用藥它的使用安全跟管理"},{"start":84.645,"end":108.105,"text":"那麼才經過很多次的討論之後定出這個使用管理辦法當然這個那麼久之前這個又是兩年多以前那麼根據很多的團體大家一起討論出來的結果那麼結果在過去這兩年當中呢並沒有反應那麼到了最近才反應出來我也覺得訝異那不過呢我們即時的因應"},{"start":108.285,"end":114.5,"text":"我懂了所以你覺得最近大家在網路上吵得沸沸揚揚你覺得很訝異不需要道歉"},{"start":115.77,"end":131.783,"text":"這個不是道歉不道歉的問題這個是我們要回應到實際上的第一線的需要沒關係沒關係我們就是要一個答案而已因為可能很多關心這個議題的人也會看在眼裡啦那剛剛署長講得很清楚署長說到說主任長也關心這個議題所以現在是暫緩那我們想知道說4月10號你正式的會議記錄公文到底什麼時候會發出來這個暫緩的公文"},{"start":142.512,"end":158.445,"text":"那你們現在暫緩想要押多久的時間是一年兩年還是三年因為聽起來剛才石部長說經過兩年充分的討論結果這麼多人還是民怨沸騰你感到訝異嗎所以我想知道你下一次是要押多久"},{"start":160.278,"end":175.107,"text":"謝謝陳委員我首先先說明一下人用藥轉為保用藥那在過去來講確實是沒有一個有需求但是沒有個合法的一個位階所以這件事情一定是要正式而且去解決它那1302月26號的這個的辦法其實也是從104年開始"},{"start":179.79,"end":197.251,"text":"其實署長不好意思打斷你我也只是要問你說你們開會的結論什麼時候會出來然後你預計暫緩多久在4月10號的下午的時候我們就已經彙整了有逐字稿跟我們的重點的一個摘錄那所以說都已經開始依照我們的公文的程序在做呈報"},{"start":198.112,"end":214.019,"text":"那在這段時間 整個簽報准了以後其實對外就可以來轉送至少我想各界尤其開會的相關的利害關係的團體都收得到記錄不用到那麼久 這兩天應該就會記錄那裡面你們是壓暫緩多久"},{"start":220.401,"end":237.153,"text":"這個現在是逐一針對這個問題來做討論那現在有一個更新的版本就是這個的辦法直接用註銷那註銷以後用一個更確切實際的內容辦法跟合乎法規的位階"},{"start":239.055,"end":256.267,"text":"來做替代你的意思是說你們決定要把它註銷這件事情大概多久以內有可能會發生我想也是在這兩天因為昨天還要再開一次會其實不管行政院或是雙部長都相當重視這件事情所以大概都已經定案了"},{"start":256.727,"end":276.98,"text":"那現在就是針對這個註銷公文的文稿內容那等雙方確認以後對外就可以公告了所以等於是說你們兩個部門你們要再重新想出一個方法不用已經大致大致已經內容確認註銷以後你還是有要新的聽起來你們還是要有新的管理辦法是是是對"},{"start":277.6,"end":299.331,"text":"那這個就會針對所有的收集各界的意見都會有針對這個來做處理今天我們就稍微跟您兩位探討還有整理一下最近各界的意見這個是今天我們拿到的報告也就是農業部提出來的他說臨床動物治療長期存在需要使用人類的藥物人用的藥品"},{"start":300.311,"end":328.591,"text":"那現行藥施法規定動物診療機構並非人用藥物供應對象所以獸醫師臨床上雖有用藥需求缺合法的供應管道那因為藥施法的限制導致藥品供應中斷影響動物的醫療這個也是剛剛石部長有講到的所以我們就來探討其中的三條可能最相關的第六條它當然是對於藥品的定義所以它定義出什麼叫做人用藥品嘛"},{"start":329.051,"end":330.933,"text":"第三三條它是規定說可以賣給誰那裡面就排除掉了這些跟動物相關的機構第五十條是在講誰可以調劑 誰可以開處方這邊也沒有規範到有這個獸醫診療的機構所以這三項規就出來"},{"start":346.949,"end":369.755,"text":"就會引發剛剛杜署長所講的也是杜署長報告裡面講的空有這個急診深夜偏鄉醫用氣體注射劑等等供應情況取藥不便延誤動物的救治所以也有蠻多聲音導向說是不是要修藥事法這邊要請石部長給予您這邊的意見我的意見就是不宜不宜"},{"start":372.116,"end":388.383,"text":"在動保法這個動物保護法裡面寫得很清楚第4條他就提到在動物用藥不足的時候才以人用藥品補充之所以他是分流的那麼再從藥事法來看所有的規範都是在人用藥品這些藥品的開發是根據"},{"start":391.344,"end":402.712,"text":"人體的結構生理以及這個病理學的基礎之下所開發出來的並不是為動物設計所以從兩個法的基本精神來看"},{"start":403.826,"end":424.419,"text":"人用藥品用於動物只是不得已之措施我等一下跟您講一下世界上其他國家怎麼做但因為這個是農業部提出來的報告所以我現在也想要請杜署長講一下因為剛才石部長針對您提出來的報告您有提到說這是藥事法的限制但石部長認為說不宜修改藥事法這邊我想請問農業部的意見好 謝謝委員我首先先說明一下剛剛我們所討論的架構都是在原來的辦法之下"},{"start":433.655,"end":459.402,"text":"所以有它這個緊縮的一個地方所以可能要尋求到依照這個藥事法的相關的精神如何解就一定有一定的程序出來但現在我們討論的一個方向也就是說以目前過渡時期來講動物取得701項人品人用藥轉到動物用藥這個的部分就是可以用的這個部分那如果說"},{"start":460.362,"end":476.168,"text":"可以克服到藥事法第50條的束縛那我們就往這個方向來做處理就不一定要就是衛福部有困難的修法的部分就不一定來在藥事法第一條就寫得很清楚"},{"start":477.088,"end":495.954,"text":"那麼如果其他法律有規定者從其法律之規定所以藥事法是完整的規範人用藥品的製造、供應、使用所以這是一個完整的人藥管理所以動物用藥如果有不足要用人藥的部分要回到動物保護法去做規範我先跟您講一下"},{"start":498.655,"end":517.613,"text":"的問題並不是只有我們遇到這個其他國家有遇到那為什麼我們今天要來討論就是因為因應台灣的少子化超高齡化還有單身率等等的所以未來啊單身的人或是長者但他有一個陪伴動物會非常非常的"},{"start":518.857,"end":522.879,"text":"不罕見嘛就是常常會有這樣子的狀況所以對他們而言也許這個急診這個半夜需要就醫的需求一定會有的那這個需求你現在只會越來越大而已所以你必須要正面去面對他嘛那我們來看這些都知道了因為農業部的報告都寫了"},{"start":536.806,"end":544.089,"text":"你現在遇到的問題就是急救住院短缺這些藥品藥商的登錄意願低剛有講到了你現在登錄就只有兩成標示包裝跟成本問題這個業者不願意去承擔這個我們也可以理解因為其他國家也有發生還有偏鄉罕病藥物難取得然後還有石部長很關心的這個流向管理啊臨床效率啊等等等等的"},{"start":560.896,"end":584.812,"text":"好那我們就來看一下這邊想告訴您的是這個世界上都有這樣子的問題可是您剛說到的人用藥物大部分都已經經過動物實驗了所以允許人用藥在動物身上不管是美國歐盟或是日本就是這樣子好那美國他們怎麼做他們就是把陪伴動物跟經濟動物分開如果你是經濟動物的話他會列舉一些藥物擔心這個藥品殘留嘛這個也是農業部可能會擔心的"},{"start":591.377,"end":606.058,"text":"但是在這個陪伴動物的話他們就沒有這樣子的嚴格他們是採負面表列他們會尊重然後相信獸醫師在治療陪伴動物有高度專業所以他們負面表列就給他們彈性的空間然後尊重"},{"start":607.199,"end":633.287,"text":"世界上多數國家都是就是兩位都很懂就是off label use標籤外使用人用藥來治療動物還有經濟動物等等的所以石部長剛講的你一定要所有人都去登記成動物用藥其他國家他也沒有辦法做到他現在大部分的國家就是七成就是人用藥單純動物用藥就占三成先進國家的常態的藥物分布比例就是這樣子好那如果"},{"start":634.267,"end":658.372,"text":"署長部長很在意這個抗生素抗藥性等等的日本他就設計說日本的獸醫抗藥抗生素耐藥性的監控機制他規定所有的這些獸醫師不管你是治療經濟動物或是陪伴動物都一定要去回報使用的狀況來讓主管機關建立統計資料庫瞭解這個使用的狀況避免抗藥性那我已經告訴你"},{"start":659.292,"end":674.383,"text":"其他國家是這樣子做了所以最後具體也請您再回應一下這幾個建議都是從這個很多專家學者或是團體他們整理出來的第一個你應該是拒絕嗎調整藥師法這個沒有這個必要"},{"start":677.985,"end":689.609,"text":"剛剛提到只要從這個動保法的相關的規定去修正就可以供藥所以這個沒有問題所以不需要去修藥事法這樣這個邏輯上會那你們現在的管理辦法因為你說你們有可能要把它暫停再出一版新的"},{"start":694.81,"end":716.962,"text":"你們新的會參考這些意見嗎比如說把正面本業改成負面本業我想委員所提到的這些農業部都收集了足夠的這些相關的資訊他們會盡快的來嚴定那我們會積極來協助農業部訂定對 那你現在要改的就農業部啊 他的報告寫到三到六點你三到六點你要怎麼處理"},{"start":718.449,"end":719.13,"text":"那農業部這邊回應一下"},{"start":739.153,"end":744.239,"text":"謝謝委員 因為原來的報告是在之前就提供可是在這兩天的時候 因為政策的定已經拍板定案那都朝向你整個解決就是原來的這個法規註銷然後重新制定一個更貼切"},{"start":754.392,"end":759.154,"text":"那這些原先這個所擔心不管是市主或是公約所擔心的問題我們檢視出來應該都已經獲得解決了所以我們繼續把這個新的一個版本那你新的版本你可以稍微預告一下您新的版本最大的變革會如何我覺得在於目前來講的話大概"},{"start":775.26,"end":798.848,"text":"從藥商跟藥局的供應還是雙軌那藥商的部分已經由原來的144項已經可以提高到701項了那當然日後這個滾動階段還會再調升所以基本上所有的用藥乃至於特殊的用藥都有它的平台跟管道可以來做出所以你的意思是說未來藥品登入會到700多項那你還需要你原本在報告中提到的寄存備藥基準"},{"start":799.728,"end":819.544,"text":"是 所以這個計準原來是在原來辦法的架構之下那要有一個突破點但現在這個註銷以後那就沒有所謂的計準問題因為藥商可以直接供貨給我們的獸醫院跟獸醫師可以來做用藥好 那我們再來未來就期待你新的管理辦法版本好 謝謝署長 署長請回座請部長跟江署長"},{"start":826.189,"end":833.156,"text":"好好下次好謝謝那我們先回座因為劉昭偉好謝謝委員謝謝陳金輝委員發言"}]}},{"id":"168521","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168521","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ec77822e2e6eae3d6afe2fd4e1f109c354b0245b1feb432957eaa2632da1fa16b54fa05dac5ead05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"09:37:43 - 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運動部派遣確定的性侵教練可以回到場邊去擔任指導"},{"start":146.874,"end":168.788,"text":"那這該怎麼辦呢問題不在個案喔而是在整個制度方面背景查核是不是要列入在你的項目之內來保障這些人目前我們的規劃的確是往這邊來走我們在新版的國民體育法的修法當中明確的要求那些叫做非積極性的"},{"start":173.583,"end":182.45,"text":"消極資格的定義我們把它定義出來也就是這一些不是的人我們可以把它公佈出來這一步每三年要盤整一事"},{"start":184.923,"end":198.756,"text":"我們現在的狀況是我們的同仁會每天上去查不適任的人就把他拿掉那現在在公佈不適任的人當中目前在法院的授權上面還沒有到那個地方什麼時候要出來被警察列為所有的補助賽事跟場館使用的強制條件你認不認同"},{"start":207.163,"end":226.194,"text":"這個可以在未來的那個消極條件當中我們把它明定出來我們就可以執行同意這個方向嘛所以速度要盡快那國發會到目前為止我們發現了這些斷鏈漏洞那你國會會的立場要怎麼樣去整合這相關單位法務部"},{"start":228.316,"end":236.066,"text":"運動部教育部這些的單位你應該要有一個整合的一個機制啊不然你各司其長鍛鍊就出現啊請說明"},{"start":239.251,"end":265.192,"text":"這個部分我是不是可以讓我去跟其他督導的那個政委去協調一下你本來就應當要這麼做啊對對對因為運動部不是在我督導的那一個業務裡面但我會去跟督導業務的你的社會安全網從2018年到2030年你必須要去做這個整合的工作好不好趕快去努力不要再有斷鏈運動部本期再請教"},{"start":266.713,"end":281.979,"text":"因為有選手在閩南東澳的時候呢他發現他必須要打這個氣喘的藥但是水警醫師不在差一點讓他喪失資格像這樣的個案你們最後的處置是說因為個案"},{"start":283.019,"end":297.611,"text":"個案來處理但是本行認為是在整個制度方面這個對選手來講非常非常的重要那針對這樣的個案在整個制度你要怎麼去做調整在整個隨行醫療的部分要怎麼樣去做調整"},{"start":298.371,"end":319.959,"text":"目前這個案子並不是用個案來處理的確就當事醫師我們部長已經做很清楚的裁釋可是未來在國家對醫的選擇上面我們已經慢慢地在制定一個選擇的標準沒有平常在跟運動員有互動的一些醫師沒有平常去累積跟運動員互動的一些經驗我們是不會遴選他進來我們將會去制定一個遴選的標準讓他有經過培養跟訓練什麼時候會出來"},{"start":327.161,"end":347.112,"text":"這應該在今年的前半年就可以出來了一定要盡快讓我們的選手一定要安心前半年現在已經四月中旬什麼時候會出來在六月以前應該可以做得到六月底以前出來因為我們要避免這樣子的憾事發生這個非常的重要所以市長對於我們整個國家代表隊純對醫師的遴選"},{"start":349.913,"end":368.827,"text":"以及他初情的管理這很重要初情的管理這個才是精髓才是精神才是要執行那麼你們在6月底以前去完成整個明確的責任機制跟即時監督的制度包括本期建議在場的義務"},{"start":371.189,"end":394.689,"text":"交接的機制以及為師處分因為你要預估萬一他發生有事情那我們的人要怎麼樣有交接的這個機制才不會影響到我們的選手這三項的方向朝這個方向你認同嗎是的是的所以我們期待技術去把它完成是讓我們的選手都能夠安心的參加國際賽事是好 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如同委員關心的像因為我們因應未來天然氣的一個需求其實在短期之內還是有增加那同時也我們因應到因為目前天然氣佔我國的一個能源使用比例也逐漸增加所以我們針對天然氣包含像接收站然後這些接收站的一個腹地就可以去做相關除潮的興建"},{"start":260.72,"end":277.498,"text":"所以目前我們正在強化也加速這些相關設施的一個興建的一個進程那未來配合這進程的一個那個發展還有我們整個除接收站跟除潮能量的增加的話我們就可以來增加我們的安全存量的填數"},{"start":278.038,"end":299.253,"text":"現在就是接收站它必須要像過去我知道說我們有好幾個接收站其實都在建設當中其實我們要等到設備完善之後我們才能夠提升我們的安全量的這個天數嘛對不對所以我們也期待國人可以支持我們在天安氣接收站跟除透相關設施興建的一個那個協助"},{"start":299.775,"end":328.881,"text":"OK好謝謝好謝謝主秘那除了能源之外呢中東的這個戰爭呢對這個晶片產業的影響其實也是特別要做留意的那台灣呢就是呢全球半導體的這個市場像這個氦氣銹跟這個硫磺都是晶片的這個關鍵材料像這個氦氣的話像卡達他就供全球三分之一以上的氦氣那銹的話呢全球三分之二的產量是來自以色列跟約旦那硫磺的話呢他"},{"start":329.841,"end":343.808,"text":"其實它大部分它佔了這個像波斯灣地區它是佔了全球硫磺出口量的45%所以我想請教像我國的這個氦氣鏽跟這個硫我們有多少是從中東進口那對於我們半導體產業的影響是什麼"},{"start":348.222,"end":373.475,"text":"跟委員報告 其實氦氣目前在整個半熬體驗其實我們現在知道半熬體業業其實在相關的回收都做得非常的確實所以目前氦氣在半熬體大部分都是做鍍膜跟冷卻使用而且他們會有高度高比例的回收再利用所以它新料部分其實大部分都是做回收再利用過程當中的損耗的一個補充所以它的需求量其實相對比較少"},{"start":374.275,"end":400.495,"text":"然後目前那個整個我們跟氦氣進口的部分其實我們可以透過像轉向美國進口來做那個替代措施所以我們目前量的部分應該在我們掌握之中是比較沒有問題的OK 氦氣是沒有問題那像秀跟這個硫磺大部分都是來自於波斯灣地區那我們大部分都是從哪些國家進口到目前為止會不會受影響這兩個材料"},{"start":403.357,"end":427.11,"text":"這兩個材料如同委員資料顯示其實它有相當比例是來自於中東國家不過我們也會積極來協助產業尋找其他國家的替代來源那同樣的它其實也會目前我們掌控狀況是在半導體業在這幾個原料部分的來源其實都沒有反映說有缺料缺貨的一個狀況"},{"start":427.89,"end":441.501,"text":"目前是安全無虞的是所以我們其實還有其他的替代來源國就是了並不一定說我們要從這個中東地方來進口嗎對主要是廠商都可以回收再利用所以他的需求量沒有那麼大"},{"start":441.934,"end":466.287,"text":"OK 好 說實在的因為國際形勢的這個帶來的這個能源的這個風險其實我們要重新再去檢視這個能源的結構跟政策的這個方向那我也知道說這個美伊戰爭國際油價飆漲所以為了穩定這個物價終於有到目前為止已經累計吸收107.3億元那我們看到今年二月份中油最新的財報公司的淨值只剩下854億"},{"start":468.388,"end":495.179,"text":"那如果持續補貼的話如果暫時未歇那這些補貼政策如果要持續的話是不是會嚴重影響中油的這個財政的這個狀況是 如同委員所接受資料其實目前國際原油向布蘭特就漲了71%那向杜拜漲了77%然後我們的原油到暫時到現在其實漲了17%而已所以如同剛剛委員所說的中油其實大量的吸收中間的一個價差"},{"start":495.939,"end":515.712,"text":"那進一步也會考慮到整個國際原油的趨勢也會掌握國內物價的變動因為我們知道國內的原油品的價格其實對整個國內的CPI其實是會有連動性的一個影響所以我們也會每週跟每月來檢討國際情勢跟國內物價的一個變動狀況然後來適時來檢討整個油價的一個調動的一個"},{"start":525.057,"end":549.245,"text":"趨勢那這個當然就會影響中油的一個財務狀況所以基部已經提出包含像相關的在大家取得相關資金或是在尋求行政院可以給予相當的一個補貼的一個那個方案也都正在進行當中希望能夠中油有足夠的一個比較好的一個財務能力來因應包含現在中東跟"},{"start":549.505,"end":564.829,"text":"未來可能會有的一些一個變動國際整個油品市場的一個變動的壓力對 我在想這個部分我們應該還是在能源政策還是要有比較足夠的應變能力跟調整的空間這樣子才能夠維護我們產業跟這個國家的安全好 謝謝祖密 以上謝謝謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"168532","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168532","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ec77822e2e6eae301251cd9848e2bf8cf00c58ee6be6f7a25bca6d85ad377ffc9a64353dbdea2ca5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林沛祥","委員發言時間":"09:49:22 - 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謝謝主席有請黃秘書長有請黃秘書長"},{"start":19.361,"end":30.859,"text":"今天本席想用一個法學上很嚴肅但是其實很生活化的問題來開場當一個機關人民不相信他的時候權力還剩下多少"},{"start":32.814,"end":57.274,"text":"監察院身為我們國家最高的監察機關依照憲政設計負責糾舉彈劾違法失職的公務員並保障人民的權益這些職權在制度裡面都寫得很漂亮但是我想請問一個最根本的問題請問黃秘書長是否認同監察權最重要的基礎不是權力本身而是人民的信任當然 我認同"},{"start":59.235,"end":80.984,"text":"因為其實這不是哲學問題這是一個憲法實踐的問題沒有信任再完整的制度也只是紙上談兵那接下來我想問第二個問題而且可能會稍微比較務實比較尖銳一點監察院我們認證是一個事實就是為什麼現在社會對監察院的信任正在快速的流失呢"},{"start":82.765,"end":102.862,"text":"這個部分我跟委員有不同的意見就是所謂的信證的流失我們從我們的監察院的陳情數字來看事實上去年大概也是八萬兩千多件的數字一整屆卻不是去年上一屆第五屆但目前為止本院人民的陳情的案件已經高達八萬六千多件預計"},{"start":104.164,"end":122.544,"text":"這一屆截止的時候會飆到十萬件也就是說人民對監察院還是有所期待的等一下我們會談到說監察院這方面有關建樹的問題但是老實說現在目前社會的觀感上面很直接該查的不查不該查最查的很勤"},{"start":123.505,"end":139.076,"text":"這句話雖然不中聽但是如果我們不去面對它就會一直存在講更白話一點這其實就是一個法律的問題檢察院有沒有選擇性行使監察權的疑慮舉一個具體的案例來請教好了"},{"start":139.716,"end":161.715,"text":"我記得如果沒有錯的話應該是前年的4月24號吧針對侯友宜市長35年前的舊案羅易事案重新被啟動調查甚至要求本人到監察院說明那我也想從最基本的法律結構上面來說起第一侯市長在當年的案件中是不是專案負責人啊"},{"start":162.489,"end":183.356,"text":"第二他是不是這個案件裡面的決策者呢如果兩者皆非那麼請問他在法律他在案中的法律地位是什麼是違法失職的行為人還是僅僅是關係人委員這個這畢竟是個案我是不是請我們施議委員會的主任秘書來跟我們說明目前這個案子過了剛好快兩年那這個其實也蠻明確的如果只是關係人"},{"start":191.078,"end":211.087,"text":"那監察院動用調查權要求到場說明秘書長還有各位監察院所有的同仁們我們都知道公務人員四大法則合法 合理 必要 比例原則那我就想請問這個案子請侯友宜市長到監察院說明請問他的必要性跟比例原則在哪裡"},{"start":213.464,"end":231.509,"text":"我是不是請市議委員會的主秘來回答委員的問題讓我繼續講完好了 因為這個案子我那時候看的時候覺得有點 身為立法委員覺得有點匪夷所思那跟你插嘴不好意思那更有就是 檢察委員曾經表示 這個調查不追究個人責任 只是為了還原事實"},{"start":233.095,"end":249.452,"text":"聽到這句話我本席身為一個國會議員其實我蠻困惑的因為我要請教的是監察院現在的法定職權到底是彈劾違法失職還是負責還原歷史那如果說後者我們要把監察院考慮成為歷史研究院"},{"start":253.837,"end":281.351,"text":"那更關鍵的是在事實認定上面憲政分工上面本來就是所謂司法院所屬的司法權核心那我必須在這邊請教秘書長跟我們監察院的長官監察院在這種進行這類不為彈劾只為還原的調查時是否已經在邊界上跟司法權產生衝疊我們這個先就個案跟您說明"},{"start":283.368,"end":290.001,"text":"報告委員,這個案子是羅易市向本院提出陳情,羅易市是加拿大的"},{"start":291.395,"end":311.015,"text":"台籍人士他針對當時入出國移民法的時候他遭到非法的逮捕的一個案子那其中呢他指稱侯友宜當時作為中山分局的刑事組組長是有問題所以呢在程序上我們那我想請問還是回到剛剛問題請問侯友宜是這個專案的負責人嗎請問侯友宜是當時的決策者嗎"},{"start":314.658,"end":336.548,"text":"當初針對羅毅士先生的逮捕是侯友宜一手去設法規辦的嗎如果不是那他是關係人吧那關係人就必須要監察院受到監察委員的調查那我實在有點害怕因為甚至說未來各位所有的人只要有人舉報只要監察委員覺得可以那請來監察院說明請問一下這是為了還人還為了彈劾"},{"start":340.27,"end":364.841,"text":"好 謝謝 我想這個案我們已經討論到這邊了那我想請那我是不是就那個委員提到說我們有沒有跟司法權這個邊界清不清楚根據大法官會議解釋監察權監察院本身就是一個准司法的機關所以難怪會委員會有那樣的疑問說那我跟司法權是不是有涉事實上我們在准司法的過程當然有"},{"start":365.461,"end":389.098,"text":"第一個我們會運用司法的程序所以在過程都要獨立啦等等這些都是司法的程序來進行第二個在司法權上面我們等於是司法權的先行的一個機關所以才會有 譬如說我們談了之後就會所以兩邊的確有一點overlap對吧這個是整個憲政 對 兩邊是有overlap對吧不能叫 我們其實那個邊界還蠻清晰只是我們有 我們叫做準司法的概念"},{"start":391.42,"end":410.676,"text":"這個325號大法官會解釋我想繼續提另外一個剛剛您提到一個很有趣的問題就是今年的這個人民陳情案件會超過十萬件那我想請問一下每年大概多少那我想請問一下不是今年我們這一屆這一屆十萬上一屆大概是八萬二上一屆整屆大概是八萬二那這一屆我們預估會應該"},{"start":413.319,"end":421.855,"text":"所以一年兩萬件嘛對不對那我想請問一下每一年受理的差不多兩萬一千件左右嘛那想請問其中真正啟動調查的比例是多少"},{"start":423.247,"end":446.826,"text":"我請副秘書長統計上面請她說明跟委員說明我們的任期是六年所以每年大概是一萬五到一萬八左右那每年調查多少屆除了那個調查案我們六屆到現在為止是1564案那可是因為這一屆我們有監察法第30條的委託調查"},{"start":448.891,"end":464.238,"text":"那這個委託調查其實也是一種調查的方式不管是委託調查還是直接你說的1564件也好比例差不多十分之一我在說明一下那個委託調查的件數大概我們現在目前統計到3月底是3809件"},{"start":466.559,"end":488.317,"text":"所以加起來應該是大概是百分之如果說真的那種派查案的比例我說一千五百多的大概百分之二這個百分之二的派查率跟所有的國際上的國際監察組織比起來是一個合理正常而且不低的組織既然不是每一案都查那請問你們的選案標準是什麼"},{"start":490.228,"end":502.298,"text":"我具體請教三點第一個有沒有明確的篩選標準第二個這個標準有沒有對外公開過第三個還是實務上由個別監察委員自行判斷"},{"start":504.728,"end":532.268,"text":"我說明一下就是監察院有一個監察院的立案派查原則他在立案派查原則第三點有條列是出實款有說哪些案子是應該比如說有重大的違法失職比如說是有機關的維持等等的就是跟扣合監察職權我們有一個立案派查原則他是一個法規你現在已經回了我就覺得很疑惑那如果回到2024年4月24號侯友宜的案子請問是屬於哪一項啊"},{"start":536.597,"end":553.491,"text":"我現在講的是說全國民眾對這件事情甚至有時候法學界對這件事情有些疑慮的地方那如果沒有清楚一致可預測的標準是不是說裁量權是否過度擴張而缺乏外部監督呢"},{"start":557.285,"end":584.217,"text":"那甚至從人民的角度看更簡單了為什麼有些案件剛剛講說一年差不多一萬八嘛一萬五到一萬八嘛那每年去受審的差不多多少十趴還是五趴每年的案件你們現在列案的案件加起來如果每年這樣的話每年一萬五千件一般八千件那等於說每年平均分擔的話那個受審率是多少受審率的"},{"start":584.793,"end":608.121,"text":"就是說你們現在正式承擔立案要去調查的案子我們畢竟是來講監察院的功能我們不是來講數學那從人民的角度看起來那更簡單啦為什麼有些案件曾經多年沒有下文那為什麼有些案件甚至幾十年前的舊案卻可以重新啟動而且動作還很快這樣的差異請問是基於客觀標準還是主觀選擇"},{"start":616.886,"end":630.179,"text":"報告委員我們都是基於陳情人所提的證據有沒有對於案件事實加以聲明來決定立法與否所以基本上採用證據法則如果人民陳情的空犯那我們沒辦法立案謝謝"},{"start":632.62,"end":653.091,"text":"所以老實說問題從來都不是監察院有沒有在做事而是是不是用同一把矢來做事人民其實要求的不高他們在意的是我的案子有沒有被查到他們在意的是同樣的事情是不是用同樣的標準來對待如果監察院沒有辦法讓人民相信兩件事"},{"start":654.131,"end":681.191,"text":"監察院的行使權是政治中立的調查標準是前後一致可受檢驗的那我們今天問題就不是只有個案爭議而是整個制度性正當性的動搖最後面我想回到一個最基本的這個建設性的問題做總結監察院是否已經提出還是即將提出具體的改革方案來回應當前的信任危機呢"},{"start":686.561,"end":706.099,"text":"跟委員說明其實監察院每一年在法規上面都有要求要做年度的檢討所以我們每一年的檢討會對於這年度的狀況做檢討也會對未來做一些提示有沒有考慮建立所謂公開透明的案件篩選機制呢"},{"start":708.141,"end":729.371,"text":"是 那剛剛因為我有說明我們有一個立案派查原則它就是一個準則那有些順序的客標指關呢是 那原則上我們每一件人民陳情案件都會依法處理就絕對不會把它吃是否監察院應該本身開始強化對監察委員裁量權的內部跟外部監督呢"},{"start":731.119,"end":751.01,"text":"跟委員說明這個委員立案其實還是有一定的行政程序那委員提出調查報告也有委員會的審查程序所以雖然監察委員是依據法律然後依據法律超越黨派獨立行使職權可是還是有一些審查的機制"},{"start":753.474,"end":776.408,"text":"監察院的價值是在於監督權力但是當人民已經開始監督監察院的時候代表的絕對不是民主跟進步代表是警訊已經響起我期待監察院能夠用制度來回應質疑而不是用個案來解釋個案讓監察權回到它應有的位置不是讓人懷疑的權力而是讓人安心的制度"},{"start":777.829,"end":800.567,"text":"我們的準司法的制度當然一定就是秉持的立法的原則啦其實我們很多的相關的管制也是從立法原則而來例如說我們必須要行政中立獨立於黨派這當然就是從這個原則我們來進行在進行的過程我們也時時刻刻我看到所有的監委都兢兢業業在做這件事所有的同仁也依據這些原則在進行之中"},{"start":801.107,"end":822.615,"text":"所以我這樣大院真的可以放心我們的監察院真的有努力把行政中立等這個原則做到最好這樣子跟秘書長分享一下目前不是本席覺得現在我們監察院是有疑問的而是普遍人民對監察院都沒有什麼信心以上 謝謝謝謝您的指教"}]}},{"id":"168523","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168523","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ec77822e2e6eae34be930247589711744e7435d00e85120957eaa2632da1fa16175e7c94f56e9555ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭昱晴","委員發言時間":"09:41:15 - 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謝謝好 謝謝主席所有在場與會的先進 大家早安我想性平法的立法到現在為止已經是超過了20年了那我隨著這個時代的轉變那我們尤其是看到這個數位科技的日漸越異所以這個校園的這個關於性平的這樣子的一個事件的樣態其實已經產生非常巨大的一個變化了"},{"start":29.339,"end":45.482,"text":"那校園其實照正常的邏輯來說應該是要保護學生的一個最堅強的一個堡壘最安全的一個堡壘但是從這個近期我們看到關於這個校園性平的一些案件的一個通報數那是逐年在增加當中"},{"start":46.303,"end":58.992,"text":"那也就像剛剛我所說的因為我們的這個所謂的這個性平的世界已經開始樣態出現了一個劇烈的一個變化那我們看到這些數據從這個109年開始通報數已經破萬那再到了112年的時候呢其實也增加了兩萬已經破了兩萬到了113年的時候是兩萬四千多件這樣子的一個通報數所以其實在面對這樣子的一個數字它不僅僅只是一個數字"},{"start":75.583,"end":92.382,"text":"而是很多受害的學生其實在這一塊的地方是需要更多的一個安全的一個保護那我想在過去我曾經多次質詢我們的教育部那另外也關心這個校園當中的一些性平的事件那麼不管是從這個台大"},{"start":93.624,"end":110.542,"text":"社間的一個性平安然後另外呢像是這個台灣戲曲學院的狼屍的事件還有就是桃園特教助理員霸凌的一個性騷的一個案件喔那我用這兩個例子來做比喻喔那在台灣戲曲學院的一個狼屍案"},{"start":111.303,"end":128.071,"text":"那這位老師呢其實在整個我們的教育體系當中其實大家都知情但是他卻在這樣子的一個狀況之下還可以隱匿在校園當中甚至到出了校園可能到了這個自己所開設的所謂的訓練的學生的這樣子一個場域當中長達"},{"start":132.054,"end":155.536,"text":"15年的時間在涉及像這樣子的一個所謂的這個性侵的一個案件那他不但是長期性侵同時也霸凌學生但是呢另外就是在這樣子的一個長時間狀況之下其實凸顯了一個很嚴重的一個問題就顯示我們對於所謂的不適任的人員的稽查跟淘汰的機制其實還有很大的改革跟進步的空間"},{"start":156.417,"end":182.695,"text":"那另外呢在這個桃園特教助理員的這個霸凌跟性騷案那這個部分的是這一位特教的助理員他涉嫌就是看學生的內衣同時霸凌但是校方怎麼處理呢校方對於吹哨者他們是用所謂的秋後算帳這樣子的一個態度那這讓我們更堅定應該要強化對於所謂的特教生等弱勢的族群在性平的一個保障"},{"start":183.075,"end":198.982,"text":"因為他們往往這些受害者是更難以用我們一般人所知道的這些言語來表達他曾經受傷害的這樣子的一個過往跟經驗所以這個其實凸顯了我們的這個性平的部分其實還有很大的進步空間"},{"start":199.782,"end":213.264,"text":"那在這裡其實在我也要特別謝謝就是憲平學生倡議連線他也特別來跟我的辦公室那我們除了來訪以外同時在修法的部分我們也呼應了"},{"start":214.605,"end":241.932,"text":"他們的一些在校園現場的一些需求那我想這些訴求包含第一與時俱進我們要明確的定義新興的一個暴力那麼在修法當中其實我們也明確的要將所謂的這個親密關係暴力跟數位性別暴力納入我們的這個法定的一個定義那我想現在很多年輕人他們的這個約會的暴力通常是持續性的一個控制還有情緒勒索"},{"start":242.392,"end":258.771,"text":"那麼在數位空間當中的一些性影像的散佈那對於所謂的這受害者尤其是人格權是毀滅性的這樣子的一個打擊那這個時候我們應該要讓法律走在更前面尤其是要走在真的嚴重傷害之前"},{"start":259.392,"end":276.628,"text":"那第二個剛剛其實也有專家學者有特別提到就是說我們的課程是不是也應該要再更加的強化那我想針對這個工地會或者是我們的剛剛都有特別提到在所謂的情感教育的課程量到底足不足夠"},{"start":277.228,"end":295.257,"text":"那在修法的部分呢其實我是主張要在尤其是在高級中等學校每一個學期至少要四個小時的一個性平課程那當然這個性平的課程內容呢也含掛包含親密關係溝通那數位暴力防治跟情感的一個教育啊那我們"},{"start":295.697,"end":312.228,"text":"不僅僅是要教導學生要如何的防範那更重要的是要教他們如何建立正常健康的關係但是呢在結束這樣子的一個關係的時候也要有一個正面的態度這個其實是我特別在這個部分"},{"start":312.628,"end":331.303,"text":"要來就是修法的一個核心重點那另外的第三點就是建立全方位的防護網跟查核的一個機制那麼尤其是當這個錯位暴力發生的時候其實學校應該要及時的協助被害人他進行所謂的證據的保全跟線上影像的一個移除"},{"start":331.883,"end":345.49,"text":"那麼同時呢我們也應該要借接這個內政部的警政署同時還有衛福部的這個性影像處理中心的一些資料那麼強化對不適任人員的一個稽查那同時呢也不容許有前科的人員"},{"start":346.883,"end":365.46,"text":"換個學校出了校門他還要繼續傷害孩子那我想這也是我修法的一個三大核心重點那麼我想性平教育不應該只是填填數據就像我剛剛說的那些數據但是我們更應該要重視就是要重視校園當中的性平的一個專業的能量"},{"start":366.901,"end":392.866,"text":"也不应该会是所谓的大家在面对这样子的问题的同时也不应该把它视为所谓的烫手山芋应该要从制度面要开始给我们的受害者一个真正的保护希望今天能够透过这样子的一个公听会大家都可以凝聚共识交换意见同时让我们的性平教育成为守护孩子的很重要的一道光那以上谢谢非常感谢"}]}},{"id":"168514","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168514","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ec77822e2e6eae3e56235bc3b6d83e78ea785098ebfecd5957eaa2632da1fa1789215d5dfcb6ad05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"09:18:41 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一旦有這樣的訊息都是醫事師直接會發函衛生局都暫停醫事人員的臨床業務在調查期間就先暫停來完備後續的調查跟可能要一副懲戒或者是依法要提起起訴的這些過程當中"},{"start":301.567,"end":314.987,"text":"對 部長這是事後啦我覺得事前是不是可以做一些比較防堵的因為過去我們自己在處理不當對待很長這樣的辯解都說特殊孩子的需求而去做什麼樣的一個療程而以至於要做這樣的行為"},{"start":315.509,"end":335.118,"text":"可是事實上最後的見解並不是這樣那個基本上都是不當對待所以我的意思是說是不是應該讓家長能夠去知道這是我覺得在預防否則就是你們要提出更進一步的改善措施是怎麼讓家長知道因為今天如果醫生在看診的時候基本上都會有一個人在"},{"start":335.618,"end":338.741,"text":"理論上孩子在接受治療的過程當中都有家屬或家長的陪伴可是他們是在外邊"},{"start":358.564,"end":378.375,"text":"而且家長也誤以為這是療程因為是在外邊所以這部分還是要請你們把這個怎麼去積極作為提供我們來瞭解一下就是說如果在治療的過程當中需要隔離 單獨相處的時候就做出一些規範我認為那個並不是常態啦多數還是都是有家長跟家屬的那來 部長這"},{"start":385.129,"end":408.237,"text":"像剛剛這則新聞的話當然如果違法當然就會公佈在我們的醫事人員的性別事件的資訊專區那這是民國112年的性平三法當中修正通過的首設者專區根據你們的網站說明只要涉及到性別事件的刑事訴訟跟刑事訴訟裁判書我們就可以通過專區看到這個不適任的醫事人員部長"},{"start":409.757,"end":430.828,"text":"目前這個醫事人員的性別事件的資訊專區除了刑事訴訟跟行政訴訟裁判書還有什麼途徑可以對接到這個醫事人員的性別專區我們目前採用的除了公開的這個裁判書之外還包含了在衛生局醫事懲戒委員會或者是相關要是有懲戒委員會那麼懲戒委員會裡面做出的懲戒"},{"start":434.33,"end":457.853,"text":"如果做出懲戒結果我們也會PO在這個上面那另外現在也在借接那個CRC專區啦就是如果是涉及到那個兒童的這個相關事件我們也會把它連結進來我今天是還要問一個比較進一步的問題就是說因為我要強調一個重點如何縮短從事件發生到披露的時間點像我剛剛前面講的那個事實上是議員揭露的齁"},{"start":458.433,"end":482.32,"text":"那個時間點 時間差是對我來講是最在意的如果我們設想一個問題如果正名語言治療師沒有被羈押也沒有被我們的黃淑君醫院揭露的話那正名語言治療師就會持續在職業持續接觸耳騷那就會有下一個受害者所以我整個看這個流程首先是司法判決司法判決的時間的漏洞跟缺口是什麼因為"},{"start":483.9,"end":497.011,"text":"一定要三省定驗嗎不用 只要他有判決書就會上來那問題來了 只要一省就可以可是一省呢要自己 是你們衛福部要自己去撈資料來放專區 那就會有這個量的問題因為為什麼 這樣子一筆一筆的去核對 一筆一筆的看你覺得這個時間差 不會產生時間差嗎"},{"start":508.58,"end":518.993,"text":"這當然我們同仁做得很辛苦啦我們本來一直在請求這個司法院的協助啦但是這個到目前為止他都只是提供他只願意"},{"start":520,"end":540.184,"text":"逐批次的提供檔案然後我們在裡面自己撈啦所以我們現在就是這個透過用AI開發這個AI的技術來協助用人工搜尋的方式所以現在時間有縮短嗎或者是應該講說怎麼去縮短因為我們現在制度沒有即時通報只能被動搜尋的話我相信"},{"start":541.325,"end":560.133,"text":"這個時間差因為都是在搶時間不要讓孩子再暴露在風險當中那樣子的狀況所以我希望能夠持續精進縮短時間差像你剛剛講要求衛福部應該跟司法院去建立直接的通報機制一旦只要一審判決的話認定有罪"},{"start":560.68,"end":575.985,"text":"判決書一公開就要能夠主動連結到醫事人員性別平等的那個資訊專區我們不是等衛福部去查這個真的有時間如果孩子還暴露在這風險下我們國家何以去面對甚至我們事實上是有兒權公約國內法化的一個國家"},{"start":577.425,"end":591.5,"text":"所以我認為一審就應該開始去做這些事情那我不知道說這樣子的一個建議部長能不能做到我來努力跟司法院我們這邊也會要求司法院所以再拜託"},{"start":593.361,"end":610.031,"text":"最後接下來就是第二個問題就是除了司法判決行政調查你剛剛也講說有一個管道就是你們會登錄有刊登在地方公報的懲戒的決議書可是我仔細看了衛福部性平專區的18項類別裡面當然醫師啊藥師啊也有語言治療師可是部長你知道這18個類別當中有幾個類別是有懲戒制度的嗎"},{"start":616.587,"end":640.301,"text":"不是所有的醫師都有懲戒只有醫師跟藥師有而已 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麻煩秘書長好 請秘書長委員好"},{"start":15.888,"end":33.583,"text":"好 民主黨好我想我今天對於監察院主要是討論一個議題就是你們之前也有做過一些報告就有關移工部分的一個問題我想監察院自己在112年的7月曾經對於國家移工政策有啟動一個調查報告那當時他認為的一個問題就是"},{"start":38.081,"end":59.791,"text":"失聯移工它是一個結構性的問題 是監察院自己的報告他說因為背後牽涉到高額的仲介費 合法薪資所得跟勞動狀況不佳 勞動條件不佳還有黑工市場拉力 還有申訴跟管理機制失靈等等的因素所以監察院的新聞稿裡面有提到111年新增的失聯移工有4.1萬"},{"start":61.232,"end":81.949,"text":"那115年2月呢現在失聯的移工有93305人這是你們的報告失聯的比例達到10.2%也就是說有10個移工裡面就有一個目前失聯逃逸中我在這邊先跟秘書長報告10個移工就有一個失聯逃逸中"},{"start":83.85,"end":95.195,"text":"過往這個我們都還沒有找到一個解決的方式現在新的政策又要說對那個印度移工開放當然啦在我的立場我會覺得這個國家亂的套大家都在說謊總統選舉前說印度移工要進來叫做"},{"start":99.276,"end":125.765,"text":"認知作戰然後選完之後馬上就政策就立刻就出來有這件事情所以當一個國家高層都在說謊的時候那是不是要需要監察院來去監督行政機關不能夠亂搞嘛那連你們的報告在112年到113年之間你們做了非常多份調查報告我們都看過了裡面講得很清楚而且支聯逃逸的移工持續的在增加你們自己也說這個"},{"start":127.425,"end":152.945,"text":"甚至103年1月你們的報告是說目前我國的狀況變成邊抓邊跑 越抓越多移民署疲於奔命 人力不足這個都是你們的報告出來的那在這個基礎之下我想請教一下秘書長你們後續還有作出任何對於行政機關的建議或者是任何說明嗎"},{"start":165.149,"end":179.532,"text":"各位委員報告一下,有關失眠移工的部分我們都會請移民署來進行調查然後要求勞動部跟移民署一起來配合研究跟調查然後盡量讓移工可以減少他逃逸的狀況"},{"start":180.492,"end":204.268,"text":"阿你這是空話嘛我叫他調查有沒有減少那所以呢你們做了什麼我們要求養鳳部跟移民署他們要盡責阿要盡責負責他們的責任阿所以這就是你們這幾年調查那麼多份調查報告之後還有有些部分的法律的依據還有法律的規定都要求他們要進行改進阿你們有發什麼文開什麼會議或有任何"},{"start":205.369,"end":229.496,"text":"我們當然會要求勞動部跟移民署追究誰的責任 有沒有當然追究勞動部跟移民署要糾正他們喔好 那你們有正式的糾正出去了是不是當然有 當然有相關的公文那第一個這個資料給我們一份第二個他們改善的結論是什麼好的 我看到的是越抓越多越抓越多 那我們會再進行糾正那個要求移民署努力所以你們後續的追蹤呢後續還在追蹤中 然後我們會進行然後再來齁"},{"start":232.037,"end":242.893,"text":"你們必須把後續的追蹤資料再給我們一份啊我跟你講現在大家就是反正我開個會我有糾正它我有指示完就沒我的事了但是我看到的東西會越來越多那為什麼今天我們要提這個因為"},{"start":244.659,"end":271.452,"text":"行政院的新的政策要再大量開放印度移工那你前面的問題還沒有解決完啊你到115年2月給我的資料是10個人就跑掉一個失聯然後你要再開放更多進來那到現在沒有任何的改善跟委員補充報告一下就是說我們的糾正案所有的糾正案已經糾正之後我們都會繼續追蹤不會馬上就算是結案的內容然後會看到他有沒有依照我們的糾正結果"},{"start":272.892,"end":297.601,"text":"那你112年的報告裡面你們有提到一個語言溝通障礙是移工失聯的重要主因所以你們的報告但是我看一下日本韓國跟新加坡他們都有基本的溝通的能力他們都有做一些語言的要求基本能力的要求但是目前我國沒有因為這是你們的報告那請問一下這個部分你們後來是要求行政機關要怎麼做"},{"start":298.121,"end":314.615,"text":"我們國家人權委員會也有針對這種類似像同意的問題做出了許多的研究我是說你們監察院會把這個研究的內容要求我們目前有做任何要求了嗎目前有進行了嗎"},{"start":315.676,"end":331.933,"text":"在這個調查案裡面就有要求有關不是你們有做任何正式的要求不是我現在已經再講一次你們的調查報告已經講這個是最主要的原因之一嘛那你們後續對於你們研究報告的最主要原因之一你們做了什麼動作我來解釋"},{"start":333.434,"end":361.588,"text":"這部分跟委員報告一下我們有要求勞動部的1955專線設立四國語言所以勞動部他們也有依照我們的規定依照我們的糾正內容去做設立四國語言的翻譯不是不是 你們的研究並不是說1955有沒有辦法受理他們的申訴你們今天你們的報告是說日本韓國新加坡在於移工帶來的時候他們就有做基本的語言要求的標準嘛"},{"start":362.048,"end":378.024,"text":"你們的報告是這樣啊你說因為很多時候因為語言不通所以導致一些彼此的糾紛發生嘛那就這個對於外籍移工他們要有基本的語言要求這一塊你們做了什麼你們對於行政機關的要求是什麼"},{"start":379.105,"end":386.032,"text":"不好意思跟委員報告一下在這部分我們經過我們的報告裡面我們要求勞動部在這個外勞要進來之前呢要求他們能夠做基本的語言的測試他們能夠講基本的中文然後這是在他們在當地的國內進來台灣之前我們有要求勞動部做這樣的訓練那你們是用什麼樣的方式要求是會議上面的口頭"},{"start":403.087,"end":421.686,"text":"還是怎麼樣我們完全沒有看到這些資料今天你們講的說真的講真講假我也不知道就我講的現在政府我已經沒辦法信任因為一下講認知認知作戰印度移工進來是認知作戰改天又說就有這件事情所以這個國家已經誰講真話誰講假我不知道"},{"start":424.97,"end":449.69,"text":"112年份的這份報告你們有提到幾個重點第一個黑工市場的拉力巨大第二個高額仲介費讓移工變成是負債的勞工第三個申訴跟轉換機制的僵化讓移工跑的就跑掉了第四個查緝量能基層化的嚴重不足這幾個問題都是你們做出來的研究報告但是目前看起來也沒有一個明顯的改善"},{"start":451.277,"end":465.82,"text":"我還是希望啦一件事情這個你們要處理好然後再來喔還有我現在在跟跟你們說明一個審計部也有一份報告出來他說現在這些合法移工的帳戶也被柵團拿來利用那現在有很多"},{"start":466.901,"end":491.579,"text":"以前我在當檢察官的時候他們說這個叫坊間稱呼這個叫外勞卡或外勞帳戶因為勞工合法進來之後出境了就你並沒有把他契約的時間跟他們電信公司等等他們的電信合約做勾結所以他們人離開台灣了他們卡片就拿出去賣給詐團那現在也有一樣的狀況審計部他的審核報告有寫得很清楚"},{"start":495.942,"end":509.294,"text":"每年從111年到113年每年都是翻倍的我們的外籍移工涉犯詐欺案件都是翻倍喔從500多到將近1000人再從1000人跳到將近2000人會有這個問題那我們台灣"},{"start":511.676,"end":535.597,"text":"因為詐欺全國人民受害很慘重但是我們對於這些移工的相關帳戶跟電信的電話卡等等的管理又超級的隨便這部分我也蠻希望說監察院這邊要進行了解因為自願性的人頭帳戶這幾年越來越多為什麼我們國家的詐騙案件這麼的瘋狂的數量往上飆"},{"start":536.678,"end":559.73,"text":"因為我們這個最基本該做的行政管理都沒有做所以我今天看移工政策不是說失聯有沒有抓到而是合法的移工要管理 失聯的移工更要管理那這些移工的帳戶 門號核發 資料的借接這些跟詐欺有關的金流等等的管理我想監察院也必須要去了解一下這個狀況那我再跟監察院說明一個點"},{"start":561.468,"end":580.654,"text":"日本韓國新加坡他們對於這些移工的管理他們都是中央階級的在統一指揮但是我們現在台灣的做法是由內政部底下的移民署移民署底下的專勤隊我以前跟很多專勤隊合作辦過案件他們的人力嚴重不足這也是"},{"start":581.734,"end":601.769,"text":"貴院的歷次的報告都有提到但是我們現在看到的還是沒有就這一塊去改善所以導致目前的移工的管理失聯的查緝違法拘留其實專情隊量能是不足那你們做出這個報告之後請問一下你們就這個人力的部分你們有做什麼樣的處理嗎"},{"start":602.509,"end":614.116,"text":"委員今天你提的意見非常多議題也非常多是不是讓我們針對你這些議題我們有做糾正的部分先跟你報告因為沒有時間我不要太當我後面再來我要跟你們提一下你們有監察業務處你們有綜合業務處你們有秘書處我知道我今天問了很多問題你們一定會說監察委員獨立方案我們必須尊重他"},{"start":626.325,"end":632.785,"text":"歷次監察員都是這樣在回覆我但是我要跟你們說明一個點因為你們還是有行政的幕僚行政的單位"},{"start":634.4,"end":661.747,"text":"今天監察委員就像是裁判誰不對我要吹哨子但是他要吹哨錢你們還是要遞哨子給他啊你們還是要給他一些該他該知道的東西嘛新加坡因為印度勞工當年開放太快就是他們現在受到苦果他們現在一直在補這個洞我沒有說台灣跟新加坡一樣但是這是一個洞我們要拿來當作參考因為風險的邏輯會是一樣這個政策如果管理有問題會"},{"start":663.367,"end":686.253,"text":"會 將來會很難處理 所以最後請你齁 那個第一個 我請 那個監察院會不會依 112年通案研究的基礎對印度移工 或者是失聯移工惡化 再啟動專案調查 會不會有沒有辦法我沒辦法在這邊跟委員報告 因為我們這監察委員獨立 至少我一樣嘛 但是我可以跟你報告"},{"start":687.113,"end":696.797,"text":"那是不是至少提出建議我知道你一定會這樣回我我把立法院的質詢帶回去好 謝謝那第二個請秘書處 監察業務處 綜合業務處把這些相關數據包括我們今天的質詢 案情這些資料"},{"start":705.14,"end":713.384,"text":"能夠以行政資源這種案件管理這個概念你就交給監察委員讓他們是不是決定去立案好不好這就沒有問題嘛第三個希望在兩週內回覆目前有沒有這些我剛剛提到這些問題這些簽報列管啊議程啊所知陳情等等的這些動作好不好"},{"start":722.708,"end":738.657,"text":"因為我跟你講對好人更好對壞人更壞這國家施政的一個很重要的方向啦我們必須要保護人民我們會把責任擔起來我今天要求的不是要監察院表態這個異度移工要不要來的我不是要求這個我只是說麻煩啟動"},{"start":740.778,"end":764.924,"text":"監督因為目前你們給我的報告十個人就有一個失聯中這個越來越嚴重那我當過檢察官我最在意的是國內的治安問題移工在國內目前確實有造成一些治安上面疑慮以及譬如說有一些人家說三老鼠他們有一些團體現在都變成移工在組成這個都已經現在實務上面的事實麻煩這個要由你們督促一下行政機關趕快處理這一塊"},{"start":766.765,"end":767.429,"text":"把委員隊的建議帶回去謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝委員指教"}]}},{"id":"168516","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168516","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ec77822e2e6eae3dd772655f5bdd3f561f404ecbec9cddc957eaa2632da1fa195660381a021fc6f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳俊宇","委員發言時間":"09:23:02 - 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謝謝趙偉 我們有請陳次長請陳次長好 次長早早 委員長我想先就一個實事題跟次長您來做請教是 那我們先前已經討論過一段時間就是總統出訪的規劃現在總算有很明確的一個消息就是總統在下禮拜四月二十二將率團訪問我們的非洲友邦蘇瓦帝尼"},{"start":31.064,"end":49.819,"text":"那今年不但是雙邊建交58週年那也適逢死亡58歲的這個滑蛋還有登基40週年那擴大舉辦的這個雙慶典去年我們林佳永部長曾經以總統的特使身份去訪問死國那死亡也曾經在2024年來到我們台灣參加賴總統的"},{"start":53.362,"end":66.037,"text":"這個就職典禮可見我們台史雙方高層往來還是相當的頻繁那從政府的這個我們記者會所公布的相關資訊來看我們這次出訪定調為台史同慶攜手共榮之旅"},{"start":70.583,"end":94.818,"text":"我想這不但象徵著我們兩國之間的夥伴關係應該也是意涵著當前地緣政治快速變化的這種情況之下台灣在非洲外交佈局的一個思考那這部分我想先就教部長我們要如何去落實安全共榮、經濟共榮還有數位共榮這三大核心的目標那這種合作模式是否有機會讓我們台灣在"},{"start":97.42,"end":103.645,"text":"這個鄰近的這些國家能夠有外交尋求突破的機會是 感謝這個委員的這個質詢我當然我們這次很高興這個世馮這個死亡58歲的這個誕辰然後也是我們這個臺史的這個58他的這個58年的這個這個兩國的友誼的這個見證那麼這個"},{"start":123.283,"end":146.926,"text":"總統這次安排出訪也見證了我們跟台灣跟斯瓦帝尼的非常穩固的邦誼當然我們是希望外交部是替過實際的一個作為來給予像這樣一個重要的友邦實質的一個發展的機會像委員剛才提到的像這個相關的共榮那麼在各個方面那我們都有一些具體的作為"},{"start":147.366,"end":171.561,"text":"那這一次的總統的出訪也會參訪台時的一個工業發展園區那這就是我們雙方的一個發展所以我們跟其他的國家有一項中國在非洲的發展是不一樣的我們是要提供它一些真正的好的一個發展的機會我們同時在公共衛生、在醫療、在數位上面都有很好的合作這次還特別強調一個是我們也"},{"start":172.701,"end":190.047,"text":"關於他的整個戰備除油的這個部分除油廠的部分我們也那個協助他能夠來修復這也是增加他的一個能源的韌性但是種種的其實來說起來就是一個在綜合外交這個理念之下能夠繼續的鞏固發展台灣跟這個斯瓦帝尼的這個雙邊關係總統這次出訪就是這樣的一個見證好"},{"start":194.434,"end":220.808,"text":"那根據這個官方所公布的相關行程我們總統此行還會這個會晤死亡並舉行雙邊的這個會談也預計會簽署這個聯合公報並且這個建政兩國外交部長所簽署的這個官務互助協定那過去我們台時的這個合作以涵蓋農業還有公衛教育還有這個婦女的這個父權等等"},{"start":221.488,"end":247.051,"text":"那我想進一步了解是簽署這些文件的背後未來我們有沒有可能是雙方合作帶來這個更大的注意那是不是請市長您這部分說明一下這次要簽署的這個聯合公報還有關務這個互助協定對於提升雙邊的合作關係還有經貿的效率我們預計會帶來什麼樣實質的效果這我們是不是非洲市這邊幫忙"},{"start":250.87,"end":262.98,"text":"聯合公報當然就是去彰顯兩國元首的一些政治還有在經濟各方面的承諾也是彰顯賴總統第一次訪問非洲的友邦的承諾"},{"start":267.823,"end":285.588,"text":"至於說關稅互助協議基本上這個是要兩國的關稅機關就是就行政的協助還有一些打擊走私然後來以及貿易進出口的一些措施可以有更多深層的合作這也有助於我們這個"},{"start":287.749,"end":295.933,"text":"在使國要推動的產業創新園區未來我們台商會進去投資可以在貿易有更迅速更便利的一個服務"},{"start":299.383,"end":314.597,"text":"不過這重點是在於是說我們也希望透過跟這個使國能夠繼續的強化雙邊的經貿的這個關係透過像我們的官務合作等等的那同時我們也成立了這個榮邦經貿辦公室也能夠推廣那麼使國的這個產品"},{"start":319.722,"end":332.747,"text":"透過這個東西我們一方面是要來鞏固強化提升使國的經濟另外一個也是對於區域國家的一個示範的效果跟台灣密切的配合合作是帶來實質的好處"},{"start":334.888,"end":355.487,"text":"那始國不但是我們在非洲唯一的一個邦交國,它同時也是南部非洲關稅同盟還有非洲大陸自由貿易區的一個成員。那如果我們台灣的這個企業以這個始國為作基地,它的產品也可以以零關稅的方式進入廣大的非洲市場。"},{"start":356.508,"end":382.194,"text":"那在中國持續拉攏其他非洲國家壓力下鞏固我們跟死國之間的這個邦誼對我們在非洲的這個產業還有外交佈局相信會有非常關鍵的一個戰略意義那我想面對這個全球供應鏈重組的浪潮台灣的這個產業創新園區推動我們要如何能夠作為台灣連結非洲市場的一個據點而目前園區推動的這個其成為何"},{"start":382.574,"end":408.682,"text":"好 那個回答這個委員的質詢委員說得非常的正確那麼我們是希望在這個地方做一個重點然後透過這個非洲南部南部非洲它的這個共同的這個經濟圈能夠推廣出去所以台商也在這個地方看到了一個好的一個機會這是這個我們外交部的一個做法是說能夠強化鞏固這樣的一個園區對於區域的一個經濟的帶動的一個效果"},{"start":412.683,"end":433.041,"text":"所以我們是在這個著眼於這個上面,然後也積極的幫這個使國能夠招引更多的台商去那個地方。甚至是說在其他的這個相關的附近的、鄰近的國家,如果這個廠商有這個繼續的擴張、擴大它的這個運作的一個需求的時候,也能夠優先選擇我們的這個產業園區來做發展的一個跳板。"},{"start":437.401,"end":453.516,"text":"好那最後一個問題就是說中共在這個非洲的外交攻勢上沒有停過常常也有具體的這個針對性特別在這個經貿的手段上中方先前也這個宣布關稅優惠政策他將現行的政策"},{"start":454.457,"end":470.072,"text":"架構之下已經給33個非洲國家享有零關稅待遇那從今年的5月開始他將擴大給予非洲53個國家全面零關稅那就唯獨排除這個史瓦帝尼那針對這個部分中共"},{"start":471.092,"end":485.544,"text":"將死國排除在非洲零關稅的名單外,對於死國的經濟會不會產生什麼樣的壓力,或是會造成什麼樣的影響?是,謝謝委員的關心。那麼我們已經做過評估,對於其他的國家,中共對於非洲其他的國家實施零關稅,對於死國的經濟其實影響"},{"start":493.51,"end":515.541,"text":"很小,幾乎可以忽略主要的是說其實現在跟這個非洲國家中國跟非洲國家的一個經貿是一個極其不平等不對等的一個經貿的一個狀況其實是從非洲國家得到更多的原料等等的這個輸入然後大量的廉價的產品把中國的過剩的產能銷往非洲地區"},{"start":517.041,"end":535.687,"text":"所以說這樣一個不平等的貿易對於非洲國家的長期發展是有負面的影響所以我們一方面認為中國對於其他的國家對於始國的差別待遇第一個是不公平的但事實上效果其實是微乎其微的"},{"start":536.007,"end":559.918,"text":"那更重要的是說我們是積極的要來協助那麼蘇瓦帝尼能夠發展自己的經濟所以我們也著重於如何能夠把他們的產品農工產品引入到我們的市場以及協助他在這個整個非洲能夠去行銷我想這是我們的要務所以是說中國這樣的一個關稅上面的一個差別待遇當然對於我們的"},{"start":561.379,"end":578.032,"text":"這個非洲最重要的一個友邦一定會有一些心理上面的一個感受所以我們是能夠希望透過這次的賴總統的這個出訪能夠帶來一些更清楚的一個經濟上面的一個利益好 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跟大家報告我們初期委員已達法定人數現在進行開會請議事人員宣讀上次會議的議事錄"},{"start":1658.157,"end":1682.931,"text":"立法院第十一屆第五會期交通委員會第六次全體委員會議議事錄時間中華民國一百一十五年四月十三日星期一上午九時至十二時十七分地點本院紅樓二零一會議室出席委員李明哲等十四人列席委員羅明采等六人列席官員行政院公共工程委員會主任委員陳金德等主席林交集委員俊憲"},{"start":1684.568,"end":1703.887,"text":"報告事項 宣讀上次會議議事錄決定議事錄確定 邀請行政院公共工程委員會報告業務概況並備質詢本日會議由公共工程委員會主任委員陳金德報告後 既由委員李昆澤等16人提出質詢均經主任委員陳金德及相關人員分別予以答覆"},{"start":1705.028,"end":1721.257,"text":"決議一報告及詢答完畢二委員徐欣盈等二人所提書面質詢均列入記錄並刊登公報三委員於質詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答覆部分請行政院公共工程委員會盡速以書面答覆散會宣讀完畢好"},{"start":1727.004,"end":1754.543,"text":"好 那我們待會再處理意思如何好 那我們現在介紹在場的委員李坤哲委員那我們也介紹我們列席的交通部所有同仁我們陳世凱部長杭政事的韓振華司長我們公共運輸及監理事的胡迪奇司長"},{"start":1757.21,"end":1783.081,"text":"我們民安局的何淑萍局長鐵道局楊正軍局長公路局林蒲山局長我們航港局葉協榮局長觀光署今天是副署長黃和廷副署長好我們台鐵的鄭光源董事長"},{"start":1786.104,"end":1809.669,"text":"港務公司黃景榮總經理還有我們淘積樂總經理范孝倫我們高鐵的副總經理鍾瑞芳我們中華航空的高新黃董事長我們亞明海運的總經理李明輝"},{"start":1812.742,"end":1841.23,"text":"好 我們也介紹經濟部 我們今天列席的是能源署的代理署長吳志偉還有我們列席 還有我們國營事業管理師的副市長劉起孝我們台灣中有的方振能董事長還有我們的羅伯同副總經理好"},{"start":1843.308,"end":1872.156,"text":"另外有我們國安會的副主任委員高仙貴我們國安會的經濟發展處程美菊處長我們農業部略署黃茂誠署長我們農糧署老美菊副組長好那我們現在在我們現場剛到我們還有一位委員我們歡迎黃孟楷委員"},{"start":1874.875,"end":1903.641,"text":"好那我們現在也請教我們在場的委員對於我們上次會議的議事錄有意見嗎好如果沒有的話那我們議事錄就確定我們今天的會議來進行因應中東情勢國際油價飆升對於我國陸海空運輸的衝擊評估與因應策略專題報告那我們現在請列席的相關單位我們首先邀請交通部陳世凱部長進行報告"},{"start":1911.738,"end":1918.265,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位女士先生今天應邀之貴委員會就因應中東情勢國際油價飆升對於我國陸海空運輸之衝擊評估與因應策略進行專題報告 敬請各位委員指教"},{"start":1927.294,"end":1943.406,"text":"從今年的二月底美伊軍事衝突爆發以來中東局勢持續在升溫當中隨著赫姆茲海峽遭到封鎖國際的能源市場面臨到劇烈的波動跟變動原油的價格也大幅的上升對於高度仰賴"},{"start":1945.167,"end":1960.514,"text":"進口能源的我國而言不僅是衝擊到整體的經濟發展也對我們的陸海空運體系帶來重大的影響那陸海空的運輸體系主要的輸運都是靠能源所以我們對於能源的價格特別的敏感"},{"start":1961.074,"end":1982.671,"text":"交通運輸部門是國家運作的命脈從民生的物資的配送還有產業供應鏈的維繫到國際貿易的人員往來都高度仰賴著穩定的交通運輸油價上升會推升整體的運輸業者成本那對於運價也會衍生出一些波動"},{"start":1983.872,"end":2003.398,"text":"行政院在4月2號已經宣布大眾運輸的票價不調漲以確保穩定民生的安定本部依行政院的政策針對國內的航空部分協調中油公司先行吸收油價的漲幅本部在編列預算支應該公司吸收的油價成本"},{"start":2004.258,"end":2030.78,"text":"高鐵台鐵主要是以電力為主受到油價的影響比較小高鐵台鐵目前也沒有影響到他們的票價跟成本那公路運輸的部分終有已經配合政府穩定物價的政策吸收了部分的油價的漲幅那到目前為止運價的這個調整的門檻目前大部分都還沒有達到那國內海運則沒有調整整體的這個運價的這個規劃"},{"start":2033.254,"end":2058.619,"text":"本部將持續的觀察油價的變動並且審慎的因應而且適時的提供業者協助那以下比較細節的報告的部分我們將請本部的韓正華司長就因應中東情勢國際油價飆升對於我國陸海空運輸之衝擊評估與因應策略的辦理情形向各位委員報告 敬請各位委員指教"},{"start":2062.059,"end":2089.308,"text":"好 我們請韓市長主席 各位委員 各位女士先生今天嬰瑤智委員會進行報告進行各位委員指教衝擊評估部分近期中東戰事導致國際郵價飆高行政院宣布大眾運輸票價不調漲以穩定國內物價以下警告國內郵價飆升對我國陸海空運輸可能造成之衝擊與影響說明如下"},{"start":2091.149,"end":2109.694,"text":"公路客運部分本部於96年核定公路汽車客運路線費率臨時調整機制若柴油價格達基本運價調漲門檻公路局將依程序辦理臨時調整機制今年3月柴油加權平均價格為新台幣28.31億元尚未達公路客運運價調漲門檻票價維持不變"},{"start":2112.375,"end":2135.946,"text":"台鐵及高鐵部分台鐵及高鐵主要採電力運行油價波動影響不大現行票價維持不變海運部分國際航線三大國籍貨櫃航商由台灣至中東僅三條航線運量不高影響有限目前三大國籍航商皆已全面停收中東地區貨物目前全球貨櫃航線運價指數與戰爭前相較上漲約10%到32%"},{"start":2141.388,"end":2158.304,"text":"散裝航運部分 波羅的海乾散貨指數上漲1.1%與鴻海危機及疫情期間高點均上有一定的差距國內航線 目前高級柴油價格為新台幣30億元 每公升30億元較戰前漲幅約19%經洽詢國內客運航商短時間內暫無調整票價之規劃"},{"start":2165.911,"end":2185.876,"text":"空運部分目前國際航線航空油價已較戰前上漲122%國內航線航空油價亦上漲116%造成航空公司營運成本大幅增加令經民航局聯繫經濟部及航空燃油供應業者了解目前國內供油仍屬正常"},{"start":2186.616,"end":2202.022,"text":"少部分國家如緬甸、越南、菲律賓等國際廠開始實施公油限制違上非完全不得在該國加油因此現階段對航空公司營運而言系油價成本劇烈增加為主要影響因應策略錄音方面"},{"start":2202.742,"end":2217.478,"text":"第一個是依行政院的政策票價採動漲方式因應行政院為穩定物價宣布啟動專案平穩吸收措施由中油吸收汽柴油價格約六成漲幅本部將配合行政院政策採取動漲票價方式因應"},{"start":2218.519,"end":2241.032,"text":"二 公路客運將是油價變化 審慎因應目前柴油價格尚未達啟動門檻本部將持續關注油價變化情形 審慎因應海運方面第一 定期召開國際海運運輸平穩工作小組會議香港局已召開運輸平穩工作小組會議目前尚未有急單或缺艙缺櫃情形"},{"start":2242.082,"end":2257.549,"text":"二持續關注國內客運航線航商營運情形事實與協助目前中油已吸收部分高級柴油價格之漲幅國內客運航線航商現階段尚無調整運價規劃本部將持續關注油價波動影響情形事實給予協助"},{"start":2258.829,"end":2278.115,"text":"空運方面第一個持續召開因應會議要求航空公司研擬因應措施民航局召開相關會議要求航空公司掌握國內外供油情形及燃油價格波動狀況做好因應準備二國際航線有航空公司調整燃油附加費反映部分成本"},{"start":2279.136,"end":2287.887,"text":"國際航空公司已依規定自今年4月7日起調整國際航線客運燃油附加費短程線調整為45美元長程線調整為117美元國內航線票價以穩定為優先要務"},{"start":2293.954,"end":2322.713,"text":"今年2月至4月連續3個月的國內航空燃油價格均價已達每公升新台幣28.75元已超過27.25元的票價調整門檻本部已配合政策協調航空公司還漲為了降低業者的營運成本避免油價達票價調整門檻經行政院跨部會協調將由中油先行吸收油價漲幅油價差額將由本部編列預算給予相關補助四 督導航空公司保障消費者權益"},{"start":2323.894,"end":2350.763,"text":"民航局已要求航空公司應按照公佈班表執行如需調整航班則應主動告知旅客並應協助安排替代航班或給予免手續費的一個退改票的配套措施以維護消費者權益最後近期中東情勢升高國際油價大幅波動對我國陸海空運輸體系產生影響為現階段整體運作仍屬穩定尚未出現營運中斷或供需失衡情形"},{"start":2351.483,"end":2376.504,"text":"本部將優先維持大眾運輸運價穩定 以降低對民生及產業的衝擊本部並將持續滾動檢討各項應變措施 確保運輸服務穩定供給以上報告 敬請各位委員會議指教 謝謝好 我們謝謝韓政司的韓司長接下來我們邀請國發會的高先貴副主委進行報告"},{"start":2387.898,"end":2402.036,"text":"主席各位委員各位先進大家早安今天陳榮貴委員會邀請本會列席本會緊究行政部門相關的政策作為提出說明敬請各位委員不吝指教至"},{"start":2402.837,"end":2416.321,"text":"本年的二月美伊戰爭爆發以來行政團隊就立即啟動了專案的因應會議那左院長每週一會主持跨部會的專案會議政府院長每週三也會召開穩定物價小組的臨時會報"},{"start":2418.542,"end":2441.997,"text":"然後密切注意中東的情勢的變化你一定對策跟應變的措施來減緩國際變局對我國的衝擊那重整行政部門因應中東情勢的七大主軸包括穩定人員供應穩定民生物價穩定供應面運作等那我以下僅就交通運輸相關的措施說明如下"},{"start":2442.797,"end":2466.093,"text":"第一個呢政府會透過提前調貨亞洲調貨跟市場買貨的三個階段來積極辦理石油跟天然氣的存量的調度作業確保油氣的供應量足價穩那第二個呢就是美伊戰爭爆發以後呢國內呢就採行了亞林最低價的原則跟專案評論機制的用中油來吸收國際的漲幅所以我們"},{"start":2467.574,"end":2476.036,"text":"國際油價是在事實上到本年的4月7號有高達132.49美元所以相較前期漲幅達到84%可是經過我們的這些雙平穩的機制以後其實國內漲幅只有18%有效的降低對國內相關的"},{"start":2488.739,"end":2506.489,"text":"物價還有運費價的一些衝擊那第二個呢事實上剛才交通部也報告過了我們公共的運輸的票價是不調整的高鐵台鐵捷運公車等公共運輸票價是不會調整然後國內的航運也協調緩漲"},{"start":2507.99,"end":2532.409,"text":"那同時交通部也定期召開了國際的海運的運輸平穩的工作小組來確保航商跟進口業者他的沒有這些缺櫃的情況那最後呢我想其實目前的美伊雖然啟動了雙邊的談判那中東的情勢仍然詭譎多變所以行政團隊將持續密切的注意國際人員價格的走勢跟變化"},{"start":2536.171,"end":2554.418,"text":"適時採取相關的措施來因應然後減緩中東衝擊對台灣經濟的像衝擊那以上報告敬請指教我們感謝國發會高縣貴婦主委接下來我們邀請經濟部請能源署吳志偉代署長"},{"start":2565.449,"end":2580.537,"text":"主席 各位委員先進 各位先生女士大家早陳鵬貴委員會邀請就因應中東情勢 國際油價飆升對於我國陸海空機運輸之衝擊評估與因應策略進行報告 敬請各位委員先進不吝指正"},{"start":2581.977,"end":2603.666,"text":"我們台灣的自然資源貶富不足所以進口能源依存度大概佔了95%那政府高度的重視能源安全在政策上面已經採取了就是進口來源多元化跟建立安全存量的機制等策略來確保能源的穩定供應強化供給的韌性在這次中東衝突的這個"},{"start":2605.406,"end":2621.878,"text":"影響評估跟因應策略上面在2月28號這個中東地緣政治衝突急速升溫以來刺激了這個國際油價震盪走高那4月7號布蘭特原油曾經高到每桶達到132.5美元左右"},{"start":2622.839,"end":2649.536,"text":"相較於這個戰前2月27號每桶只有72塊左右大概上漲了84%那展望因為這個中東局勢的關係整體國際遊視的不確定性相當的高那為了因應這個中東情勢經濟部在第一時間就啟動了相關的這個能源應變小組那每天都會召開會議以下就我們這個穩定國內陸海空運輸用油的供應機制來向委員會說明"},{"start":2650.757,"end":2669.296,"text":"第一個我們會密切注意國內這個能源的存量那目前國內能源的存量天數都高於我們安全存量的法規那經濟部也確實掌握這個石油供銷機型短期受影響的船隻也找到了替代來源那我們也責成中央公司運營相關的替代調度方案"},{"start":2670.037,"end":2691.687,"text":"那在穩定價格 汽柴油價格的部分經濟部已經責成中國公司續行雅齡最低價的原則並視國際油價的變動的情況由專案平穩機制至少吸收60%的售價漲幅那同時政府也宣布有關汽柴油貨物稅減增的幅度也擴大至每公升3塊5及2塊2元左右"},{"start":2695.109,"end":2713.234,"text":"那同時配合交通部穩定航空燃油的部分那院已經請交通部依現行規定啟動國內航空燃油的補助那經濟部也責成中油公司增加航空燃油的採購的規劃確保穩定供應我國各機場的航空燃油"},{"start":2713.914,"end":2730.87,"text":"那最後由於目前我們的國內的能源安全存量居高於法規那經濟部也會持續掌握國內存量跟後續這個船隻抵港的情形來確保充分供應入海空運輸的用油後續也將滾動檢討相關的一些應變機制努力減緩國際容價漲幅"},{"start":2735.774,"end":2757.331,"text":"大幅上漲衝擊然後配合這個穩定物價的政策來照顧民生以上報告進行各位委員並指教 謝謝好 我們感謝經濟部農業署的吳志偉代理署長接下來我們邀請農業部的漁業署黃茂成署長進行報告"},{"start":2767.718,"end":2785.831,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位先進農業部應邀交通委員會列席來報告因應中東情勢 國際業務價飆漲對我國漁業的一些衝擊評估跟因應策略 敬請委員指教我們政府為了發展海洋漁業"},{"start":2787.672,"end":2806.947,"text":"我們在民國47年開始就針對漁業用油有實施優惠的一個補貼那相關政策一直有一些的調整跟變動那最終是在民國80年那由總統公布修正漁業法在我們漁業法裡面明定漁業動力用油免徵貨物稅"},{"start":2808.368,"end":2832.191,"text":"那優惠的油價標準是由行政院來定資那這一次因為我們海洋捕撈漁業的這一個部分油價佔我們的成本大概平均大概30到40%那對於中東情勢造成能源價格的一個提高對我們的漁業影響也非常大所以農業部也研擬相關的一個措施來協助我們產業"},{"start":2833.252,"end":2849.566,"text":"那目前我們海洋捕撈漁業裡面大概分成兩大類一部分是我們沿近海作業的漁船大概有兩萬艘那這些漁船作業漁區都在我國專屬經濟海域內那他們都會以台灣的基地港做母港"},{"start":2850.026,"end":2867.475,"text":"所以他可以在國內加油享有這些用油的一些的補貼那另外我們大概有900多艘的遠洋漁船那長期在公海作業那這一類的漁船的作業用油的一個成本大概佔整個經營成本大概28.5%這一類的漁船他就沒辦法享受國內的這個用油的一個補貼"},{"start":2872.657,"end":2891.284,"text":"那目前我們在國內的一個補貼措施裡面除了免徵營業稅還有定額補貼這一個貨物稅以外我們是依據中油公告的牌價在給予14%的一個補貼那目前我們的補貼情形一年大概"},{"start":2892.044,"end":2910.36,"text":"由我們漁業署編列大概15億元的經費來預註直接預註給中油公司那這一次中東情勢我們採取的措施針對我們沿近海的一個部分我們過去在102年有發生金融危機當時這一個油價來到我們在補貼後的歷史高點是一公餅2156"},{"start":2918.787,"end":2946.205,"text":"565元那我們就以這一個基準價如果我們這個油價推升到這一個基準的時候我們農業部會給予一公餅1000元的一個補貼由農業部直接歸電給中油那在公海作業這些遠洋漁船的部分我們也參考中油的海運燃油的一個排價如果在達到我們戰爭開始前也就是今年的2月26的兩"},{"start":2948.006,"end":2971.042,"text":"那2月26這一個中油公告牌價是每公噸793元只要達到這目前的這一個公告牌價已經達到兩倍所以我們已經啟動相關的補貼這一個產業支持措施包括這個海上的作業的一個獎勵靠港整補跟金融支持那分別定有相關的一些的申請條件跟獎勵金額"},{"start":2973.137,"end":2999.615,"text":"那另外這兩項措施是由我們漁業經營者折一來申請那如果有金融支持的部分我們也會提供一年期的貸款然後利息1%的一個補貼最高貸款金額是新台幣3000萬元那考量漁業是我們民生基礎產業也肩負了國家糧食安全的一個重任所以整個油價上漲會導致整個作業成本的一個增加"},{"start":3000.375,"end":3009.28,"text":"對於餘產品的供應跟糧食安全會產生影響所以為了達到穩定供應餘產的這樣的一個目標我們會持續關注國際油價的一個漲鐵情形來給產業給予協助謝謝以上報告請委員指導謝謝好"},{"start":3021.38,"end":3049.822,"text":"那我們現在就開始進行詢答也做以下的宣告我們詢答時間出席委員6加2分鐘列席委員4加1分鐘委員發言登記請於10點30分截止各位委員如果有臨時提案請於10點前提出以便醫事人員會診我們也暫定10點30分休息10分鐘現在我們邀請登記第一位的委員李坤哲發言"},{"start":3057.182,"end":3070.728,"text":"謝謝主席 請一下中油公司董事長 方董事長 能源署有代理署長交通部陳士凱部長 以及林福山林局長請林局長我們請代理署長"},{"start":3074.872,"end":3093.044,"text":"我先請教一下中油公司方董事長針對我們燃料供應的穩定以及價格的問題當然是國人目前很關注的一個議題確保供應方面當然國際的處理的慣例大概就是尋找替代的路線"},{"start":3094.085,"end":3109.731,"text":"或是其他的國家的供應的來源那我記得方董事長在4月8號也說過中油也在處理相關的替代的路線在協調之中以及其他的供應來源那目前的進度狀況是如何來請說明一下"},{"start":3111.315,"end":3137.125,"text":"我也好說明一下替代的來源從非洲這邊以及在地中海區域或者是在澳洲都是我們尋找的一個替代的來源那這部分也有一些成就包含了就是從亞塞拜蘭包含了從阿曼這邊或者是澳洲這邊當然美國是我們原油進口的一個主要的來源"},{"start":3138.277,"end":3156.169,"text":"那麼替代的路線的部分因為我們從沙布丁阿拉伯買了原油還佔了蠻多的比例但是他原油沒辦法出來所以沙布丁阿拉伯他就拉一條管線他有管線是到鴻海這邊可以輸出的"},{"start":3157.17,"end":3172.859,"text":"那這邊我們也跟他陸續在接洽看我們的原油輪能不能從紅海這邊裝運以後呢從曼德海峽這邊出來好 也要請方董事長確保這些相關來源的穩定以及替代路線的一個協調的狀況必須要來穩定相關的這些狀況"},{"start":3177.282,"end":3196.723,"text":"那我請教一下能源署有待的署長我們相關的油價平穩機制以及天然氣的這種平穩機制目前的運作狀況以及具體的措施來說明一下跟委員報告一下這個中油公司它一直以來都是用我們所謂的亞林最低的價格"},{"start":3197.324,"end":3217.424,"text":"好那這一次因為中東事件發生以後也經過院理協調我們還另外發展出一個叫專案平穩的機制那專案平穩機制的部分中油供至少吸收60%以上那所以在這次以最近這幾次以來應該這幾週基本上都沒有做過相關的油價的調整那以上報告"},{"start":3217.884,"end":3232.391,"text":"好 這個要確保油價以及天然氣的來源的確定跟價格的一個穩定這個這個能源署責任是非常重大的好 我們會繼續持續的滾動講好 兩位先請回座休息我請教一下陳世凱部長"},{"start":3234.885,"end":3255.696,"text":"當然受到戰爭的影響 國際油價上漲有一定的趨勢雖然目前我們極力的穩定相關的價格以及確保來源的一個穩定但是戰爭的狀況在目前這種國際局勢多變的狀況之下仍然是呈現一個不穩定的狀況"},{"start":3257.762,"end":3281.702,"text":"目前中油跟能源署也進行相關的平穩機制來維持民生的油價我們在客運的部分 陸運的部分 包含公路客運以及計程車公路客運是大眾運輸 計程車是準大眾運輸工具尤其是計程車 大概全國有9萬多台"},{"start":3284.304,"end":3300.776,"text":"使用燃油的大概八萬九千多台我們看到相關的在過去我們相關的這些補貼的政策近年來總共啟動了三次包含2008年2014年跟2016年都有啟動相關的這些補貼的這樣的一個做法"},{"start":3307,"end":3319.954,"text":"那其實在四年前的俄烏戰爭也有啟動相關的討論那當時最後是公路客運我記得是公路客運有補貼計程車這個方面因為還沒有到達一定的這樣的一個衝擊的狀態所以就沒有補貼那"},{"start":3324.571,"end":3352.154,"text":"公路客運的部分我記得我們考慮油價的這種上漲當然他有一個調整的機制就是準基本票價來做一個補貼就是要跟工會以及相關的這些部門大家討論之後來進行對票價的一個補貼來請林武山局長說明一下我們這次有做這樣的一個規劃"},{"start":3357.257,"end":3374.194,"text":"確實公路客運的部分 沉入剛剛委員所提的一個部分那因應油價的部分 公路客運本身的費率裡面有內建這個因應油價臨時費率調漲機制就是CRF那這個CRF的部分是按照月平均的才有價格來做一個處理"},{"start":3374.915,"end":3401.707,"text":"那目前大概就是說以3月1號到3月底這個平均才有價格大概是28.3那但是目前這個CRF調整的這個門檻大概是29.6那相信大概這個如果以4月份的這個平均價格的話大概在5月就會碰到那這個部分的話我相信公會大概會啟動這個CRF這樣子的一個這一個機制那未來他們送進來的時候那我們會跟這個公"},{"start":3404.188,"end":3429.639,"text":"公會來做一個討論會依照程序來做處理他有一個匯率的調整機制當然啦是由政府來補貼相關的票價的這些落差那相關的我們預計啊如果說這半年公路客運相關的除了時程之外除了機制之外相關的經費來源啊你們有沒有做過評估大概需要多少錢"},{"start":3431.341,"end":3456.58,"text":"這個部分大概有試算過如果說以5月到今年12月按照這樣子這個因為我跟各位報告一下如果啟動的話大概就是超過29.6就要啟動但是下一次再啟動的話就要那個油價就要平均達到39點多那所以如果按照這個5月份這樣子來啟動到這個12月的話大概今年所需要的經費大概是1.21億"},{"start":3458.681,"end":3483.515,"text":"大概一億左右啦那現在我們討論到計程車計程車有八萬九千多輛都是燃油的這些汽車那他們也非常的辛苦他也是准大眾運輸工具那我們在過去都是採取油價責讓就是發行油卡讓他們直接來進行抵扣那相關的這一次的機制有沒有納入計程車"},{"start":3484.716,"end":3489.148,"text":"那相關的預算大概要多少 你有沒有先進行評估"},{"start":3490.799,"end":3514.625,"text":"像委員報告這個部分其實都在公共運輸的同一包包含說這個公路客運包含計程車的部分我們是整體都在做討論那公路的部分剛剛局長已經有回答過大概1.211一直到年底那計程車的部分我們如果以過去的這個補貼的方式1公升5塊錢的這個補貼的方式來試算的話大概一個月我們大概評估補貼400公升的這個油價"},{"start":3516.605,"end":3529.248,"text":"也就是一位計程車司機一個月差不多是兩千塊左右以過去我說的是過去啦如果是以那個機制來回推的話現在如果要來推行的話一個月大概是1.9億左右的這個預算必須要來質疑"},{"start":3530.219,"end":3548.014,"text":"那整體來說在今年如果從五月開始大概就需要大概十億以上的相關的預算大概就是接近這個數字所以我們現在整體都在估算因為包含這個公路客運包含計程車包含其他的公共運輸體系在內我們整體都在做檢討"},{"start":3549.975,"end":3578.477,"text":"另外部長我要提醒你我們是用海空運輸當然常常需要到他國來進行油料的一個補充那在油料價格跟供應穩定方面它其實更容易受到波動的一個影響導致運輸成本的增加那相關的運輸成本也會連帶的影響到進口的原料的原物料的這些價格所以在民生油料的補貼之外"},{"start":3579.258,"end":3596.071,"text":"我們也要針對海空運輸的成本要進行觀測來研究是否相關的成本補助我們有沒有可以協助的一個空間而且還要確保這些國際原物料運輸的品質跟它的一個價格的穩定"},{"start":3596.792,"end":3622.818,"text":"那這個部分部長簡單說明一下我們有沒有做這樣的一個先期的規劃不管是空運或者是海運的部分我們都密切在關注整體油價對於運價的這個影響那委員剛剛所關心的例如說進口的這個原物料成本會不會因此而增加目前看起來進口的這個原物料的這個運費它提漲的這個幅度相當的低不高反而是出口的成長的比較高那空運的部分目前聽起來"},{"start":3624.198,"end":3652.736,"text":"不管是進口或出口啦空運的部分當然進口跟出口的量也不多但其實目前的這個調漲的幅度都是業者可以接受的範圍之內所以目前對於物價的影響應該不大部長我要提醒你要跟公共工程委員會密切的聯繫就是說讓物價的平穩機制能夠確實的落行之外要確保短期之內我們這些價格波動不要影響到公共工程的品質跟它相關的一個期程是"},{"start":3653.416,"end":3669.605,"text":"那最後我覺得我們要建立多元能源的一個供應的方式各交通領域直接受影響的程度當然不一直接影響的當然有私人運具或者是客戶運的部分"},{"start":3670.345,"end":3694.111,"text":"那間接影響當然是像電力台鐵高鐵等等的這些軌道設施但是國際燃料供應跟價格波動他當然會影響到電力的供需以及相關的價格那交通部其實應該是要減少燃料的供應依賴啦要減少依賴建立多元能源的一個供應的管道提高這種"},{"start":3695.427,"end":3720.722,"text":"承擔能源風險的一個能力那台電報告在這種場站要建立再生能源發電的系統跟搭配微電網可以在電力中斷的時候提供必要的這種電力的供應那目前交通部各場站的這種多元能源的這種供應進度交通部有沒有進行相關的規劃來說明一下"},{"start":3721.883,"end":3742.614,"text":"像委員報告這個部分其實我們都有做相關的討論跟規劃那目前委員在提的這個微電網的部分在能源有需求或中斷的時候可以再做電力供應像我們的電動巴士的這個場站他們大概有一些場站有做這樣子的設置有做這樣的設計那其他的部分我們還陸續在推廣當中"},{"start":3743.795,"end":3763.024,"text":"最後我有幾個建議就是說我們各交通系統的廠站在設計階段要納入節能的設計改建階段將建物的節能也要納入考量那現有的廠站我們要如何增進這種能源自主例如很多廠站可以設置這種屋頂的"},{"start":3764.204,"end":3792.693,"text":"太陽能板以及都市熱能的回收等等那我們各運輸系統也要必須妥善的利用相關的廠站的空間這都是我們交通部跟各部門必須要全力的一個推動的一個政策方向最後讓部長再簡單說明一下是 報告委員尤其您所提到的這個太陽能板的部分其實我們都陸續在推動包括您看得到的我們交通體系的廠站幾乎能夠裝的盡量都裝那還有就是我們"},{"start":3794.173,"end":3821.35,"text":"高速公路的服務區服務區現在也開始大量在裝置這個太陽能板我們也要盡量朝向能源自主的部分這個我們正在努力向委員報告要確保相關的對於公共運輸的這種穩定都是交通部重要的責任好 謝謝委員好 我們謝謝李君哲委員部長請先回座好那接下來我們邀請洪孟楷委員發言"},{"start":3833.426,"end":3860.679,"text":"主席謝謝 麻煩請交通部陳部長請陳部長好 部長好今天我們討論到是中東情勢國際油價飆升對於航空業者的這個衝擊那當然首當其衝就是說運輸這個衝擊絕對不要影響到民生但另外一方面因為整體你們報告不管是海陸空等相關的運輸現在"},{"start":3862.04,"end":3875.396,"text":"都面臨到一個問題就是都是政府不管是補貼或是中油來吸收那每個禮拜一這一個我也在財政委員會有問過但是沒有辦法得到答案就是說那我們如果說假設中東戰事持續延燒"},{"start":3876.741,"end":3890.608,"text":"沒有人說的準它什麼時候結束那我們能夠補貼或是說我們的臨界點到底在哪裡有沒有一個預期的心理不要讓社會大眾造成恐慌我們也不希望讓社會大眾突然間措手無措"},{"start":3892.649,"end":3920.284,"text":"守株無錯來請部長說明一下向委員報告目前我們就是依照行政院的要求跟指示我們對於整體的國內的公共運輸的票價我們會做不調整的這個作為可以到什麼時候不調整到什麼時候向委員報告我們目前所規劃出來的除了到年底是一個版本之外另外針對明年的一整年就是116年的部分我們有提出我們的預算的需求如果要做兩年比如說到116年底"},{"start":3920.644,"end":3944.068,"text":"的整體的這個補貼的措施的話要讓國內的公共運輸平穩的話其實我們有提出一個預算上面的需求那就看到時候行政院對於預算的安排怎麼去安排好所以我們先講因為現在四月嘛到今年年底不管油價怎麼樣飆升不管中東站是怎麼樣的演變我們都不會調漲我們的陸海公運輸的票價目前我們國內的公共運輸我們的政策上是不調漲的"},{"start":3945.208,"end":3973.573,"text":"確定因為部長其實國際原油的價格現在你的報告裡面以及我們這各部會報告裡面都來到一桶132美金而這一次的中東戰士更創下了144美金也就是有國際原油價格交易以來歷史新高另外一方面現在看到的這個燃油的一個價格航空燃油價格他是翻倍成長翻倍"},{"start":3975.134,"end":4003.773,"text":"所以說本席才會問的是說那到目前為止我們的因應規劃即便中東戰事持續的這個延燒我們都有信心能夠在今年年底以前國內的運輸不管是高鐵台鐵以及公路客運都不調漲像委員報告行政院的政策是這個方向沒有錯所以交通部會照這個方向來執行這個問題好那我們就是要看你那另外我們也要說那這樣子如果預估要多少成本"},{"start":4005.074,"end":4022.887,"text":"我們過去這一年過去這一個多月的時間已經花出了多少我們的預算我們到明年底如果估算到明年底的預算是差不多85億我先問的是這一個月這一個月就是2月28號到現在我們相關的補貼或是相關的吸收"},{"start":4023.974,"end":4051.112,"text":"目前我們有實際落實到補貼需要補貼的部分只有空運的部分空運的油價的部分因為我們請中油公司協助我們從44塊的油價調降到28塊所以目前都還是中油公司吸收大部分所以說中油公司才會想是說他過去這一個月已經破百億的一個成本吸收那未來我們交通部這邊會有跟中油公司還是全部都讓中油公司這邊來接收"},{"start":4052.313,"end":4067.629,"text":"在航空燃油的部分我們目前是拜託中油公司先幫我們調降那個價格但實際上我們到最後會編列預算來還給這個中油公司也就是說由交通部這邊來做補貼因為即便是國內線的航空燃油到目前為止也都是歷史新高"},{"start":4069.171,"end":4082.887,"text":"過去我看了中油的這個數據裡面國內線的航空的燃油到44塊以往沒有超過40塊的所以現在是歷史新高嘛所以未來交通部也會編列預算再給中油公司這個沒有問題 這個我們會做"},{"start":4084.389,"end":4104.328,"text":"那另外我們看到是韓國政府有祭出節能政策也就是說要現行公共機關的車輛並且頒布12項的節能行動之意那卓榮泰院長之前被問到的時候也有講是說政府應該帶頭開源節流就是要對外的車輛出入都要儘量精簡"},{"start":4105.109,"end":4125.61,"text":"我想請教那身為我們中央主管機關交通部我們對於公務部門體系說出入車輛盡量精簡我們具體措施跟要求跟辦法是什麼像委員報告目前沒有定定這樣子的辦法但大家都有這樣的默契但是卓榮和院長就講是說要盡量精簡但是沒有任何的措施辦法"},{"start":4126.243,"end":4135.39,"text":"我們目前有盡量在精簡好來那我請教一下今天那麼多的部會但是大部分都是交通部的同仁嘛剛剛有沒有貢城來的首長"},{"start":4137.423,"end":4162.322,"text":"首長有沒有共成來部長有沒有邀請來一個司長跟你一起坐車司長他們都是共成來的現在都有要求要共成因為我出發的地點跟他們不一樣所以沒有辦法共成不是從交通部過來我剛剛不是從交通部過來所以本席要講的就是說現在就是卓榮泰院長講了一個說你要盡量精簡但實際上沒有相關的辦法跟作為"},{"start":4163.083,"end":4181.169,"text":"那你身為中央主管機構我們看到韓國確實因為中東油價不是我們能夠控制但我們要的是說要大家可以盡量訂出辦法那我們已經看到韓國了他講是說頒布12項的節能行動指引縮短淋浴時間白天充電供部門車輛上路分流管制"},{"start":4181.929,"end":4210.41,"text":"那我想請教交通部是不是應該也要對於這種全民運動的部分帶頭做起以身作則是不是要訂立相關的政策研擬如果說中東再次持續延燒的話我們要怎麼做如果委員您所說的是交通部必須要自己先做的話這個部分我們正在執行當中那有沒有辦法由我們這邊來制定一個辦法要求整個政府機關或者是民眾大家來配合這個我也覺得委員的建議蠻好所以我們來研議這個方面看怎麼樣去"},{"start":4211.09,"end":4227.889,"text":"呼籲大家盡量節能這是左榮泰院長所講他要公務車輛盡量精簡但是不要只有口號沒有具體的作為過去到現在都一直強調的是我們要務實不是務虛不是說只是喊口號所以說這一點是本席要提出來"},{"start":4228.57,"end":4251.683,"text":"那你如果說要研議相關辦法給行政院來做參考甚至說廣泛的話什麼時候可以研議出來給我們一個月的時間我們來跟行政院這邊一個月好本期看您一個月的時間最後部長還是強調這個所謂的中國大陸對台的十個政策本期剛剛有看到您有在外面受訪有講到說橄欖枝有可能會變成棒子"},{"start":4252.682,"end":4278.741,"text":"所以你現在認為說這個中國大陸對台的十個政策他算是 現階段算橄欖枝還是算棒子是橄欖枝是棒子其實我看不太出來因為對於我們來說你不認為他是橄欖枝這樣說好了台灣目前到中國大陸要去做自由行的我們完全沒有限制我們的國民任何人要去都可以是嗎 不管怎麼樣今天是中國大陸這邊提出來那本席沒有要"},{"start":4279.341,"end":4296.094,"text":"我現在在強調的是說我是想確認交通部的態度因為我們看到很多的觀光旅遊住宿飯店餐飲運輸業者也都很期待兩岸有春龍花開的時候當然你一定會講的是說我們有多元市場我們有開放觀光但是很現實的層面"},{"start":4297.816,"end":4315.479,"text":"過去我們觀光客能破千萬是有三四百萬名的入客那我現在想要請教的就是說有業者也認為是說近年我方各種推脫閃躲技術刁難簡而言之啊雙方是沒有互信想談也沒有辦法起頭這是業者"},{"start":4316.687,"end":4344.77,"text":"媒體報導直接就報導觀光旅遊飯店業者的這個說法那我只是想請教現在對方丟了一個球第一我們官方的態度認為這是感染之嗎我們我剛剛回到我剛剛所說的話題對於自由行台灣是沒有任何限制那我們目前看到中國開放了上海跟福建可以來台灣自由行那如果這叫善意的話那請問一下上海跟福建以外的他的限制算惡意嗎"},{"start":4346.261,"end":4358.312,"text":"會不會是另外一種而已假設上海跟福建佔他們總體國民的十分之一那他目前還佔 禁了 禁止了十分之九那到底是誰比較有善意我看應該是我們比較有善意吧"},{"start":4359.664,"end":4376.593,"text":"對 部長你完全搞錯這個問題的重點我現在只想問的是說你認不認為說他現在的做法是感染之如果是的話可以進一步談我現在想要確認這是官方的立場跟態度就是說如果說因為這樣子的一個動作兩邊可以有譬如說丟球接球"},{"start":4377.854,"end":4385.701,"text":"對於觀光旅遊飯店住宿業者他們也有所期待但如果說今天官方的態度就是我們不願意接求或是我們認為說這不是橄欖枝的話那當然我們也可以直接讓我們的業者知道是說我們不認為嘛所以現在重點在於是說你覺得是不是橄欖枝要不要後續有溝通的程序啟動"},{"start":4398.911,"end":4427.167,"text":"因為過去他們時常把橄欖枝當棍子在用所以我現在無法判斷但您說的啟動其實我們早就啟動我講過好多次我們回到小兩會的談判現在資深的旅遊業者就講說小兩會是談團體的旅客但是大陸是開放自由行的旅客為什麼要透過小兩會是要談什麼根本就是開放就可以做到的事所以附路的進團力的理由根本就是什麼理由都有委員"},{"start":4427.907,"end":4453.328,"text":"這個就是媒體報導如果說你認為媒體報導是錯誤的請你更正但我們現在看到的地方就是說對於七成或說第一線的旅遊人士來講他們當然希望在我們捍衛中華民國主權立場的情況下能夠更開大門走大路過去2008年到2016年嘛政府時代可以做的事情為什麼民進黨政府沒有辦法做那還有就是我們為什麼沒有辦法"},{"start":4455.109,"end":4483.629,"text":"能夠有更春暖花開的時候所以這一點還是官方的立場跟態度現在是讓我們覺得模糊不清讓業者知道說有沒有機會有春暖花開的時候好 不要口惠食不至啦我真的只能講是說不要口惠食不至就如同剛剛講的不管是公務車的這個精簡政策到目前為止沒有落實任何辦法那現在不要口惠而食不至我"},{"start":4484.249,"end":4505.176,"text":"今天代表是希望我們所有飯店旅遊住宿觀光餐飲業者真的能夠有開大門走大路的時候這是國內所有旅遊業者的期待 謝謝謝謝 感謝洪孟楷委員接下來我們邀請萬美玲委員發言"},{"start":4514.622,"end":4516.664,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們有請陳部長好 請陳部長委員好"},{"start":4529.943,"end":4557.312,"text":"好 部長早這個空運的部分在國內航線我們現在是由中油先吸收油價的漲幅沒有錯嗎國內航線的部分是好 那國際的航線您好像有說到說會請航空公司盡力的來按照公佈的這個班表來執行如果要調整航班那有一些相關的配套措施提醒等等通通要出來對不對好 那帶我們來看國際航班的部分現在雖然已經調整了燃油附加費的這個部分"},{"start":4559.053,"end":4572.58,"text":"但是民航局的數據看到一個數字各航空公司在4月份現在每一週大概就取消了平均7.3班的班機那到了5月份更是取消的班機增加到了每週52.6班"},{"start":4574.841,"end":4588.152,"text":"那看到這個數字發現取消航班的狀況其實是越來越嚴重那我想請教部長我們國際航班的部分現在我們還有哪一些措施可以來因應不可能讓他們因為現在油價漲然後我們就一直減少這個班機嘛有沒有什麼因應的措施"},{"start":4592.395,"end":4620.548,"text":"燃油附加費當然是對於他們油價的一個補貼但是航空公司還是吸收了蠻大一個比例的燃油的漲價的成本目前為止是這個樣子所以有些航班他們希望能夠整併或者是精簡掉一些航班到目前為止我們掌握的數據昨天晚上有算出來整個夏季班表我們影響的是0.3%的航班目前看起來還不多但委員剛剛在提醒的是說擔心五月之後或者是六月之後影響會更大"},{"start":4621.268,"end":4640.088,"text":"其實你用這個0.3來講但我們要實際去看我們從4月到5月這個航班取消這個比例其實是增加非常的快的不是你口中看到0.3你就覺得很放心了而且你要看再過兩個多月我們的所謂的這個國外旅遊市場都忘記就要來了就暑假的時候"},{"start":4640.649,"end":4666.023,"text":"不管是在教育界老師放暑假孩子們放暑假的時間都會要出國去的如果班機再這樣一直減班的話我覺得對於國人出國旅行的衝擊是非常大的我記得就是在前幾年疫情的時候我們也有給航空業者一些相關營運紓困的方案包括有提出緩收場站使用費或者是噪音補償金 土地使用費等等"},{"start":4666.803,"end":4688.404,"text":"那現在如果按照現在來看來我想中東戰事誰也說不準會繼續多久那如果說我們這個油價還是拼命往上漲然後呢我也不知道中油的吸收能夠到什麼時候你準備了多少成本那航空業者像你所說的不管他自己的成本考量油價的考量那去把它整併以後影響了這個航班我們是不是有其他的配套的措施在這個國際航班上面"},{"start":4689.304,"end":4713.625,"text":"向委員報告這是一個國際上面各國都遇到的同樣的問題我知道但是你有沒有什麼應對的方式目前我們看得到的就是說目前他們整併掉的航班都是定位率比較相對低的那也就是說影響的民眾其實實際上沒有這麼多他們把定位率不好的航班把它拿掉那其他的會盡量來維持那我們會盡量鼓勵那部長是不是可以就是說"},{"start":4714.105,"end":4732.646,"text":"在這裡啊做一個保證說我們即將來臨的這個國外旅遊的旺季就七月八月齁這段時間我們的班次不會班級不會再減少因為現在已經診病了嘛五月都已經要減少每週五十幾班了這個可以保證嗎要不然現在其實很多的家長啊孩子啊大家在準備暑假的出遊其實都心裡就是很擔憂啦"},{"start":4733.527,"end":4760.201,"text":"是 向委員報告 這個部分其實交通部沒有這個力量去要求各國的航空公司不要去減班這當然不是要求 而是要跟航空業者多溝通看他們有什麼樣的困難嘛這個我們都會掌握啦就是說困難上面我們如果可以協助的部分台灣的交通部跟民航局一定會做更好的協助我想 我給你一個比較具體的建議啦因為就差兩個多月的時間而已了那我想航空業者其實就是用油大戶嘛"},{"start":4760.981,"end":4781.753,"text":"那面對中東戰事現在的狀況那我們沒有一個政府沒有一個政策可以補貼他他自己自救的想法就是覺得說第一個我趕快診病第二個呢那我就是縮減這個班級那我覺得是不是部裡面找一個時間跟航空業者坐下來聊一聊然後看看如果什麼樣的狀況的時候我們可以可以什麼樣的幫忙我覺得這個會可不可以盡速一個禮拜之內去跟他們做一個溝通"},{"start":4782.833,"end":4796.444,"text":"像委員報告之前其實民航局一直都有跟他們開過會所以才會有燃油附加費的增加我們會盡量協助他那委員再交代說希望再更密集來跟他們開會這個我們會做不要影響這個暑假暑期的出遊接下來呢這個本席要跟你討論的我想前不久你也才剛剛聽到本席在提出來嘛總諮詢的時候其實我就有提到桃園的鐵路地下化當時呢我跟卓院長在講這個事的時候您也在場"},{"start":4808.593,"end":4816.696,"text":"那大家都說會回來討論不曉得那天本席談完之後到現在你們有討論過了嗎我們的這個變更計畫追加了769億我有跟院長報告整體的狀況那他對於整體的經費當然他會覺得蠻大的"},{"start":4824.799,"end":4851.841,"text":"那這個部分我們還在討論就是說工程會那邊在討論說我們工程上面的經費看要怎麼樣去做更合時的一個作為那目前我們正在討論當中我們也希望他趕快進行怎麼會這個時候才來說要做更合時的一個作為或者是說再去看這個經費這個769億不是昨天核定這是8個月前經過很審慎的評估以後提出769億那大家各部會都同意了都蓋章了才到行政院去我們持續都在溝通"},{"start":4852.421,"end":4879.205,"text":"現在卡在行政院這個八個月的時間了我想部長你非常清楚知道我記得在昨天前天我們看到這個工程會的主委他提到一件事他說中東戰爭導致原油進口量減少間接影響柏油產量那麼進額就會導致濾清減少然後就會缺料接著就會漲價一樣的意思我們這個769億的變更預算其實就是以前因為工程延宕產生出來的費用那你看看"},{"start":4880.405,"end":4903.497,"text":"769億是8個月前提出來的你跟我現在嚴當有9個月10個月你覺得到時候如果萬物在起漲的時候769億還夠嗎那如果要不夠是不是要辦你第三次變更計畫那這個是不是還是一樣全民買單部長你有思考過這個部分嗎有都有思考過所以呢結論是什麼我們盡量努力希望進度可以再加快一點我們盡量再溝通那現在溝通的困難點是什麼呢"},{"start":4904.957,"end":4928.994,"text":"溝通的困難就是我剛剛有報告過就是經費其實還真的是蠻龐大所以要做更詳細的說明經費龐大不是這個時候拿出來講769億那個時候是大家已經都經過很多時候去討論去商榷就是769億而且你要說他的經費龐大不好意思那天在總諮詢我本席也跟你講過我們樹林萬大縣我們高雄捷運全部都合併下去啦那怎麼就我桃園提出來的經費叫龐大呢那難道這個"},{"start":4931.155,"end":4935.237,"text":"這個萬大縣跟這個高雄捷運小港零元縣這個經費都不龐大嗎對不對這也都是500多億啊也都700多億800多億啊怎麼他們就不龐大我們的769億就龐大呢可以給我一個說法嗎向委員報告您所提出來這個數據第一個萬大縣它增加220幾億那高雄的是增加303億也是500多億嘛對不對"},{"start":4956.108,"end":4983.406,"text":"個別啦 個別沒有那麼多那我們桃園這個增加的部分就700多億確實是比較龐大一點但是委員在急我也蠻急我們也希望說趕快能做溝通所以我們會盡量盡力來這個案子我覺得你說金額龐大這件事情本身是無法接受為什麼如果你覺得金額龐大意思是說其實沒有需要這麼多就可以做嗎不是嘛 對不對它是有急迫的需要當這個建設是有急迫需要的時候它沒有所謂龐不龐大的問題"},{"start":4985.207,"end":5000.978,"text":"當時大家都合訂一關一關蓋章送到行政院去的這代表大家都同意這個是需要的那結果你現在回頭說金額有一點龐大那你當時就不要合訂769億啊向委員報告我們會盡量來溝通交通部溝通目前可能溝通還不足但是我們盡量來溝通"},{"start":5003.737,"end":5025.655,"text":"真的不能這樣啦部長真的桃園啊這個鐵路地下化這麼多年了曾經有人說如果高價的話現在都通車了但是我們也尊重鄭文燦這個當市長當時的做的改變的決定全市也都配合像桃園市政府也都很配合但是工程延宕再講一次是延宕在中央啊不是延宕在地方嘛目前我們的工程上面沒有受到影響"},{"start":5026.275,"end":5048.842,"text":"目前還沒有受到影響怎麼會沒有受到影響你的這個金額沒有核定下來你今天我們桃園火車站動工了然後我們的國際站已經發包了但是我們的這個內地站我們的桃園醫院站就是沒有辦法發包啊所以而且呢這個不要去卡你卡這個八個月後面如果再多一個月兩個月就不是769億的事情了這個不會卡那到時候怎麼辦對不對我會盡量來溝通"},{"start":5050.362,"end":5057.15,"text":"所以部長不要盡量啦 盡全力好不好盡全力好不好 我相信你的能力就盡全力啦好不好好 謝謝委員好 非常感謝萬美玲委員那接下來我們邀請陳樹越委員發言"},{"start":5077.527,"end":5080.39,"text":"謝謝主席 請主席邀請陳部長請陳部長委員好部長早安那今天交通委員會是針對這個因應中東情勢那國際油價飆升對我國陸海空運輸之衝擊評估及"},{"start":5098.24,"end":5117.32,"text":"因應策略然後邀請江部做這個專題報告那本席想先請教就是部長就是我們知道這個荷姆斯海峽是波斯灣通往外海的一個唯一水道那中東盛產石油所以運油的這些貨輪都是幾乎要經過這個荷姆斯海峽所以現在因為戰爭那這個重要的"},{"start":5121.764,"end":5142.029,"text":"能源運輸的這個管道被封鎖了所以也造成了這個國際的一個能源供應的一個危機那我們當然台灣也沒有辦法就是避免所以目前因應這樣子的一個能源危機我們就是交通部對於會受到影響的陸海空那個交通的部分我們"},{"start":5146.011,"end":5156.697,"text":"短中長期的一些策略我先請教一下部長有關短期部分當然我們目前有看到的行政院希望交通部能夠針對高鐵、台鐵、捷運、公車、客運等運輸票價動漲"},{"start":5161.44,"end":5179.292,"text":"那江湖部也針對國內航線的航空用油有決定要進行補助嘛那在經濟部的部分當然就是針對中油的部分希望能夠動漲這個國內的一個油價這是目前我們可以看到的那未來長期的部分我不曉得江湖部這邊有沒有什麼規劃"},{"start":5180.553,"end":5209.127,"text":"向委員報告因為行政院已經有政策上面的指示希望我們國內的公共運輸的部分票價不來做調漲那所以我們目前正在規劃就是說如果假使我們油價一直維持高檔的話我們包含這個公路科運也好或者是說其他的公共運輸的體系那我們應該要怎麼樣來做補貼或者是來做支撐讓它可以在不調漲的狀況底下又可以順利來做運行那目前我們也有提出了到年底也就是說今年的5月到12月"},{"start":5209.887,"end":5226.646,"text":"我們所需要的預算跟所需要的作文那另外還有評估到明年底也就是116年底我們所需要的預算大概是多少這個我們都評估過例如說到116年底我們大概需要85億左右的這個預算那我們都有針對各個運具它的所需來做這樣子的評估"},{"start":5227.327,"end":5242.56,"text":"那目前國內公共運輸比較單純的會是在這個鐵路的部分因為我們的雙鐵包含台鐵跟高鐵那因為他們是用電的不是用油的所以受油價的影響比較不高除非電價有做調整所以這方面會比較單純"},{"start":5243.641,"end":5256.789,"text":"那另外針對用油的部分其實我們有針對各個運具入海空的部分其實我們都有做一個規劃都有做規劃出來那我們會看油價的整體的變化也會跟行政院這邊來配合看怎麼樣去評議整體的運輸的物價"},{"start":5259.39,"end":5265.297,"text":"目前雖然中油有吸收成本有吸收26塊多那還是有漲了3.3塊這樣子的價格所以對一些民生的百姓的支出還是有造成壓力"},{"start":5280.174,"end":5284.84,"text":"開車上下班的通勤族那也都會連帶就是影響到物價的一個上漲那甚至也是會影響到貨運的一個成本就是很多運輸業者就是一些貨運的運輸那也會造成他們成本的一個增加"},{"start":5297.714,"end":5319.655,"text":"所以我在這邊要請教部長就是說因為這個戰爭的變數很多到底什麼時候才會結束所以我們未來有沒有可能就是去思考說降低這個燃料稅負的部分來減輕我們民眾的一個負擔向委員報告燃料的稅負是不在交通部吧不在交通部是不是"},{"start":5322.168,"end":5341.498,"text":"氣燃費是在交通部那像貨物稅那些就不在我們這邊對氣燃費的部分我覺得這個部分要做討論因為到底戰爭會跑多遠不知道那另外一方面是說我們目前所需要去協助的其實是公共運輸的部分交通部目前正在著眼的是這個部分"},{"start":5341.878,"end":5354.432,"text":"那對於整體運輸的部分因為其實中油已經犧牲了蠻高比例的燃油的成本那到底整體的稅負的部分就看行政院這邊的政策上面有沒有做什麼樣子的討論或檢討我們都會來配合"},{"start":5356.775,"end":5375.694,"text":"是因為我想這也是息息相關的就是這個油價的一個上漲當然就是會連帶造成一些民生的支出就是造成這個民眾的一個經濟的一個壓力所以我們也希望就是說未來我們也是要未雨綢繆就是說要去思考一下就是萬一這個戰爭還是會"},{"start":5378.236,"end":5385.36,"text":"拖延很長的一段時間那我們要怎樣來因應來穩定我們這個民生委員剛剛所建議的這個棄燃費的部分我們來做討論我們內部先來做討論那也要看這個整體戰爭的時間大概是多長我們會來做討論我這邊再先請教一下經濟部就是說因為對於江東部目前的"},{"start":5398.886,"end":5425.062,"text":"短期的部分大概是這樣的作為那經濟部這邊當然就是要求中油就是動漲這個油價那剛剛我有提到就是說其實每一開站到現在我們有漲了兩次就是就是我們對民生的部分我們就是一般用油的油價漲了兩次那我們是大部分的成本是由中油來吸收那也吸收了一百多億了那不曉得說未來這樣子的一個狀況我們"},{"start":5428.164,"end":5448.633,"text":"還能夠撐多久我們不知道嘛因為這個戰爭的變數很多所以未來我們看到就是說我們台灣的這個進口的來源原有的進口的來源幾乎有68%是來自於中東那我們有沒有可能降低這個就是仰賴中東的這個來源有沒有可能開闢其他原有的一個進口管道"},{"start":5449.612,"end":5470.535,"text":"跟委員報告一下就是說基本上我們在分散這個就是進口國的工作我們一直在做那像那個天然氣的部分以前現在的佔比在中東大概只有大概差不多三成左右那我們會持續因為我們最近中油大概在六月份他會有一個美國新的約進來"},{"start":5471.716,"end":5499.765,"text":"那那個基本上以後中東的那個天然氣的部分就會慢慢慢慢下降那有的部分中油現在他在北美採購的那個量也是逐步在提高當中所以我們一直在努力分散這個不同的市場來源是是因為我們也希望就是說這個基站不要放在同一個欄子因為按照這個統計的數字我們看到這個天然氣的部分異化天然氣的部分仰賴中東的比例是比較低可是原油的部分就相當高嘛有18%的比例"},{"start":5501.545,"end":5512.694,"text":"所以我們也希望就是說盡量能夠分散這個風險好 我們會努力好 謝謝那接下來我最後一個問題再問一下交通部部長那我們署長就請先回去沒關係"},{"start":5513.618,"end":5535.127,"text":"就是目前我們就是因為這個整個國際能源的一個危機就是國際石油還有天然氣供應吃緊那對我們目前進行的重大交通建設是否會受到影響比如說我們目前彰化縣內重大的交通建設就是台76線延伸到方院的這個工程"},{"start":5536.127,"end":5562.223,"text":"因為我們知道很多工程的原料比如說釐清或者是一些成本的提高我剛剛有提到運輸的成本等等會不會造成工期的延長向委員報告我們盡量不要去影響到工期也很感謝公共工程委員會其實都有做原物料的協調包含釐清的部分也提供我們很大的協助目前為止是沒有受到影響但是如果長遠來看的話未來的戰爭發展到什麼樣的狀況"},{"start":5563.744,"end":5581.733,"text":"我們還不曉得不過我們會密切注意整體原物料的這個第一它價格的波動第二它原物料的來源有沒有辦法及時供應這個部分我們會注意是好就是說我們希望就是說在這個部分我們交通部也要有事先的因應的對策是沒有錯好我們會做對策謝謝好我們感謝陳書業委員接下來我們邀請魯明哲委員發言"},{"start":5601.441,"end":5627.228,"text":"好 謝謝主席有請交通部陳部長請陳部長部長好委員好其實今天在討論這個問題對我們的立場是我們根本像世界各國一樣無法控制這個問題的走向所以我們真的是只能談發生我們要如何去應變所以我們在今天整個專題的報告大概就是"},{"start":5628.428,"end":5647.969,"text":"所有委員跟大家來討論發生什麼樣的情況能夠多做什麼事情首先第一個很多委員都說了當然中東戰事發生到現在原油的價格在波動一個大幅成長之後隨著消息面隨著消息面是談還是不談是打還是不打"},{"start":5650.111,"end":5665.809,"text":"那不斷的造成原油一個波動當然相關的副產品也造成了非常大的挑戰然後海峽的一個封鎖讓很多的原油的船隻根本出不來那就台灣現在受到影響也謝謝中油我在這邊謝謝你們"},{"start":5668.331,"end":5686.362,"text":"中油現在超過100億台塑聽說有2、3十億自行吸收那我們整個台灣的一個油價相對的是漲幅吸收蠻多的不過還是漲目前看了無鉛汽油從3月初到"},{"start":5687.422,"end":5708.891,"text":"4月13號大概漲了17%那柴油的部分從3月1號26點幾到現在31塊也是漲了大概16%那整個造成了一個真的依靠加油這個油作為一個生財工具主要成本的這樣的一個產業包括很多公共運輸造成了非常大的一個"},{"start":5709.671,"end":5711.715,"text":"對於我們這個公共運輸面除了中油力挺之外我們有什麼樣的應變方案"},{"start":5719.798,"end":5741.829,"text":"向委員報告在公共運輸的部分行政院已經有指示在國內的公共運輸我們目前票價都盡量不要去影響到民眾所以也就是不調漲那不調漲他一定有他的條件除了說中油來吸收之外例如說以航空燃油來講的話我們拜託中油從44在國內航空的供給的這個油的價格調降到28那不過這個部分也是會由交通部這邊來編列預算來還給中油這個部分我們會來做努力"},{"start":5745.091,"end":5770.779,"text":"那另外對於公車的部分也是公路客運的部分目前已經快要碰到那個必須要調漲票價的點那如果真正碰到的時候業者會提出申請那我們也會讓他做成本上面的調漲但我們對民眾的一般的那個票價不會受到影響為什麼因為交通部會提出一個票價的補貼票差的部分由交通部這邊來吸收那貨運的部分目前他們也有在提出這個可能要調漲的這個想法"},{"start":5772.6,"end":5793.532,"text":"那這個部分我們正在審議跟討論當中那我們也希望說在我們整體的貨運的價格不要調整的狀況底下他在我們核定的貨運的價格下面來做浮動那這樣我們會准許的那另外對於海運的部分其實我們也在做這方面跟剛剛所講的其他公共運輸都一樣如果有需要票價的補貼都由交通部這邊來想辦法好"},{"start":5797.463,"end":5822.872,"text":"剛剛你特別也說到不管是陸海空運輸不管是屬於私人的或者我們公共運輸其實都一樣我們整個油品的一個上漲最近的一個消息航空來油上漲122%這我讓《京津日報》這樣報告我不知道這麼正確反正大家都知道漲了很多靠怎麼樣一個補貼怎麼樣一個吸收要想辦法"},{"start":5823.752,"end":5849.762,"text":"那在整個露營園區客運啊甚至遊覽車的一個部分啊他們主要是吃柴油那柴油的部分呢從3月1號到4月13號也大概上漲16%那這樣的一個遊覽車或大客車其實燃油的成本啊大概都超過三分之一啊事實上是蠻吃重的所以我也接到很多電話啦蠻辛苦的那海運的部分當然這個部分也持續的在上漲"},{"start":5850.862,"end":5867.083,"text":"那我就請教一下部長這國際的情勢說真的不要說其他大國都沒有辦法掌握啦所以來問大家說什麼時候可以結束我覺得沒有必要這樣問了那我們講在應變的過程中我要提醒幾件事第一個現在很多的"},{"start":5867.964,"end":5888.896,"text":"客運業者包括公車好了國道客運公路客運這些業者這個對於因為前幾年減班減路線已經減一大堆了民眾已經非常不方便了千萬不要因為在這一波你知道吧這個這個最後一波造成更大的一個影響首先第一個"},{"start":5890,"end":5913.422,"text":"了解一下我問了工會啊光國光啊國光客運啊因為本身就是在那個邊緣啊我們都覺得他很危險財務啊各方面有點欠東欠西的我很擔心啊對不對你最後一個危機如果沒有協助他處理的話可能會出大事國光客運我們就了解3月份啊3月1號到3月31號這一個月咧他的油錢啊"},{"start":5917.383,"end":5940.039,"text":"比平常的月份多了600萬差不多600萬每天多20萬那本身的他們的財務就不是很好所以我們了解了公衛說對他們的一個壓力非常大我相信你也知道但我只是舉個數字把反應到底發生了什麼事情那第二個要考量的問題就是說因為台灣的一個油品現在主要的除了中油"},{"start":5940.942,"end":5960.589,"text":"之外台塑台塑當然還好也謝謝他們不能光謝謝中油也謝謝台塑石油目前的政策都是配合配合不管是中油國家政策來做調整但是我們比較擔心因為什麼時間可以結束我們真的不知道如果它真的變成中期長期"},{"start":5961.969,"end":5980.965,"text":"在國家的工具預算可以調整的過程中我們要去思考一件事可能私人的油品公司他不見得到了中長期還可以跟你弄到尾這個部分會影響到不管台塑石油他的一個想法第二個台塑石油他的所有的加盟店他的一個做法"},{"start":5981.525,"end":5999.881,"text":"那很可能做法是什麼 就是減法嘛 減法就第一個好吧 我還是開了 我還是開了每一天我們就供應一點點像很多國外在排隊啊 排很久我就限量供應 這第一種第二種咧 我減少工時啊 我根本就不開了現在我們現在台灣有這種 這樣一個狀況嗎"},{"start":6001.562,"end":6030.994,"text":"有沒有加油站不開了暫停營業了向委員報告目前我們還是要中油有暫停營業了嗎有品不足的狀況目前是沒有了有沒有沒有好那我就請問一下今天高空局沒來關西加油站今天早上貼上了暫停營業關西休吉區的加油站今天早上貼上了暫停營業誰給我可以回答這是中油還是台塑的加油站"},{"start":6033.086,"end":6059.873,"text":"高速公路國道3號關西休息站裡面的加油站貼上了暫停營業是什麼意思等一下其實你中油的內在是不是你中油的報告委員這是不是我做確認一下再回答這個問題是不是不是啦是不是來喊一下就好了是中油的是不是查過是中油"},{"start":6060.816,"end":6065.66,"text":"喔 是 我中友沒錯 但是現在是整修 所以暫停整修喔什麼時候開始整修的啊是不是每一戰士一打就開始整修了是不是啊已經整修很久了嗎我跟你講 這個東西啊 這個東西剛剛的"},{"start":6083.036,"end":6099.983,"text":"這個遊覽車業者到那邊馬上回報說什麼因為什麼這個油價上漲啊加油站都不開了我覺得你們在現場要講清楚一點如果是已經整修加油站是整修整修什麼它是整個休業區整修是不是"},{"start":6103.948,"end":6118.396,"text":"是整個休息站整修是不是對應該是休息站的加油站整修他會維修到今年的7月就會開始到今年7月從去年開始是不是對去年7月1號去年7月要到今年7月好"},{"start":6119.016,"end":6139.232,"text":"那這個部分麻煩你們寫清楚一點因為剛剛在會前才跟我說那我也會去深度去了解但你不要整修一年之後跟整修之前一樣加上機器都一模一樣也沒長大也沒縮小到時候我們回去看那我想這樣的一個情況你要特別注意一下到時候如果有減量或者減工作日的問題都會"},{"start":6140.993,"end":6156.621,"text":"都會要特別注意最後 剛剛很多委員也提到了現在面臨一個情況如果 最擔心的是如果中東熱戰是持續 持續造成荷摩斯海峽持續的封閉現在本來是一層封現在變兩關 要過兩關"},{"start":6159.403,"end":6170.937,"text":"這個伊朗跟美國要過兩關我不知道什麼時候可以解決啦如果這個遊出不來的話對於全國 全世界全世界都影響當然台灣如果變成中長期影響我覺得勢必勢必要有個應變措施"},{"start":6174.281,"end":6190.706,"text":"情境二是增加通勤費啊如果增加通勤費通常通常這個運輸成本增加可能是不管是船公司或者進口的廠商誰會去付啊忠祐忠祐說明一下吧如果增加通勤費這個部分是誰會去吸收"},{"start":6192.651,"end":6210.736,"text":"目前沒有這種狀態沒有嗎 還沒付不是 也沒有討論這個事情是就沒有討論到所以可能要思考一下因為我看這個狀況以後會不會伊朗不收 美國也要收如果有這條增加通行費"},{"start":6211.856,"end":6239.911,"text":"到底是怎麼回事他未來的反應的情況是如何我覺得要追蹤一下因為這個事情還沒有確定那我想針對於這整個的一個郵品因為中東戰事不斷的一個波動甚至上升會不會馬上停那大家恢復一樣我們當然很期待啦那我們也希望交通部也好我們中永相關的把這個能夠掌握最新的情況能夠給相關的一個業者能夠最好的協助 謝謝"},{"start":6242.438,"end":6261.612,"text":"好 我們非常感謝許物可委員接下來不是 我們謝謝魯明哲委員那接下來我們特別感謝魯明哲委員剛剛的發言我們接下來就邀請到陳青龍委員好 謝謝"},{"start":6272.879,"end":6276.946,"text":"主席 請我們交通部 陳部長好 我們請陳部長謝謝 謝謝主席"},{"start":6283.188,"end":6307.208,"text":"委員好部長好我想油價雖然我們動漲油價還是上漲那我們很多通勤族還是以機車作為主要的一個通勤的工具尤其我們上班族但是我們現在"},{"start":6309.109,"end":6321.08,"text":"發現有一個狀況就是機車 口罩 靠騎車 靠腳腳我們現在全面改用網路預約結果現在機車 口罩人們去預約好像比這個要搶這個"},{"start":6330.047,"end":6357.466,"text":"這個演唱會的門票還要困難喔我可以報告這家店舖的機車口罩形成網路的一個關鍵字那我們民意代表的服務處現在竟然機車口罩竟然也會變成民眾到服務處尋求陳情協助的一個服務項目那我去了解一下我們從這個表格來看"},{"start":6358.507,"end":6379.464,"text":"我們採用全面的網路預約好那我們在2023年我們可以來提供給民眾來考照的一個預約的一個名額的額度35萬人左右但是啊到2024年就整個遞減2025更遞減到28萬人整個名額啊"},{"start":6385.991,"end":6402.782,"text":"像這樣讓民眾整個為了考驗照像我們要去一個月就要去抽要去預約然後又預約不到我們不是要鼓勵我們所有的國民"},{"start":6403.888,"end":6423.519,"text":"我們要安全駕駛我們要取得駕駛執照之後才能夠安全上路嗎但是這個考照為什麼會變成這麼困難保證你跟台亞地中民生最迫切的一個問題我最近其實也密集跟公路局在討論這個問題"},{"start":6425.18,"end":6438.811,"text":"因為確實民眾已經有反應而且不是一小段時間已經好幾個月都有反應這樣的現象那我們不應該讓民眾在考照的過程當中遇到這樣的困難不應該啊這事實就是存在像委員報告他其實預約制已經實行10年從105年到現在實行10年所以問題不在預約制"},{"start":6445.956,"end":6458.01,"text":"是我們這個供給的部分可能不符合現在的需求那我有要求這個公路局在短時間之內我們先做一個措施讓他可以成長10%的這個提供的名額過去的網路預約沒問題為何近兩年會產生這樣的問題"},{"start":6464.333,"end":6480.328,"text":"這個要檢討啊那我也有去了解喔最重要因為現在整個預約大家去搶那會變成就像搶門票一樣嘛大家都要搶喔大家都去搶你知道嗎那你一搶"},{"start":6481.269,"end":6508.34,"text":"你就會發覺他只要搶到他就登錄對不對但是時間到了他不去他不去考就是這樣的一個報名預約到的名額就變成被浪費掉了大家都是我們說明天我叫做先唱先贏先吃先贏嘛他就去站了站了到時候時間到了他就缺考結果這些名額"},{"start":6509.48,"end":6531.461,"text":"就沒辦法來適時的使用嘛我們從去年的一個報考人數我們來看28萬9千人的報考只有21萬8千人去真正的倒考有7萬1千人根本沒有去也就是啊 大家看不看得到四分之一的人根本沒去考"},{"start":6532.302,"end":6549.875,"text":"不去考,大家就出事,產生這麼嚴重的問題所以在這樣的情況,想考的人沒辦法去考,報的名的人不去考產生這樣的一個網路,這個預約的黑洞在那裡"},{"start":6550.995,"end":6559.821,"text":"這個部分我們有檢討要怎麼處理嗎謝謝委員關心您所關心的這個議題其實我們之前有檢討過那在之前1月之前今年1月之前報考率是75%我們檢討完換了新機制之後現在的報考率是到97%已經到97%了但是目前的情況能夠釋出的名額會更多"},{"start":6573.77,"end":6592.154,"text":"有能夠來提 讓道考慮啊整個提升就是我們的要求嘛對不對 因為我們的能量一直在低減我剛剛有講嘛我們提供的能量 民耳一直在低減那你道考慮一定要提升啊不然民眾的有一個埋怨啊"},{"start":6593.095,"end":6606.77,"text":"還是存在 像委員報告一方面倒考率提升那二方面我會讓整體的可以考的名額再提升 名額要增加我這邊就有提出建議了我希望倒考率的名額要釋出那要滾"},{"start":6608.532,"end":6633.73,"text":"滾動的一個檢討你讓民眾要考一個技巧的教學變成困難這個就一定要處理要檢討了好不好我們公務局也在這邊我們希望一起來讓民眾能夠有考個駕照能夠更方便好不好那接下來我在這邊也要討論提出一個"},{"start":6634.931,"end":6656.147,"text":"建議我們現在反正油價上漲我們通勤組運用大眾運輸工具的一個情況越來越多尤其高鐵台北台中南部台北這樣的一個用高鐵來通勤的一個比例人數越來越多"},{"start":6657.288,"end":6669.819,"text":"那我在這邊我有發覺我們高鐵這邊有一個這個票制彈性不夠彈性不夠它在郵費方面它只有兩種一個叫經期票一個叫回溯票"},{"start":6672.481,"end":6700.204,"text":"那前陣子我們高鐵有在討論這個票價的調漲嘛 要調整當然目前因為中東戰爭因素還有整個帕海這個漲價影響我們的一個通貨膨脹我相信高鐵是不會漲價 不會漲價但是啊 它過去我們在定期票的部分喔它過去喔 希望它就趕回省喔"},{"start":6700.965,"end":6726.552,"text":"那二十天下去算就是禮拜六禮拜天不算了一天兩天它的折扣算起來應該在一萬三千兩百三十塊後來現在就改成只有一種定期票一天二十天改成三十天存一張存一張那一張下去處理就變成了"},{"start":6727.432,"end":6753.506,"text":"他的定期票會變成啦我這個是以台中跟台北為例子台中跟台北一天兩座來說你該做三十天來算我的定期票一個月就要花到一千九百多啦一萬九千八百四十五塊以我台北台中這樣來算所以其實這裡就有變相的一個調漲價格就沖清楚來"},{"start":6757.668,"end":6778.425,"text":"原來的定期票我改中改半,我一公尺百分之一萬三現在都要變成一萬九另外一種優惠就叫做回溯票,我們來看回溯票回溯票你目前只有兩種,一種是三十天的十次八二折另外一種是六十天的八次九二折"},{"start":6779.165,"end":6796.712,"text":"所以我們剛才要跟國企說的就是定期票你調整成從20天的調整30天只有一種變相漲價第二個你的回溯票你只有一個30天做10趟的82折60天做8趟92折"},{"start":6800.353,"end":6821.979,"text":"那我在這邊我建議的 因為我每天也是一樣 台中台北這樣同情我們的建議就是 我在這邊提出建議 回溯票的制度 是不是可以來增加回溯票 你目前30天只有10趟 你能不能來研議啊"},{"start":6822.719,"end":6846.351,"text":"我比如說我一個月內40趟還是20天內40趟那個折扣數你可以從原來的92折82折去調整成類似我建議的65折讓這個彈性 優惠的彈性更多讓通勤組的民眾更方便來使用"},{"start":6847.752,"end":6860.878,"text":"這也是因應我們票價未來可能調漲的一個方案在這裡是不是請交通部長還是我們高鐵局這邊能夠做一個高鐵公司這邊做個回應"},{"start":6862.103,"end":6880.476,"text":"謝謝委員您剛剛說的那個條帳的部分目前都不是真正在落實的方案其實高鐵各種方案都在滾動檢討委員您現在在建議的這個20日40次的這個部分我們也請高鐵公司把它納入檢討的範圍裡面我們來討論看有沒有這樣的可能性您的說法沒有錯啦"},{"start":6881.116,"end":6887.961,"text":"讓他更有彈性更有彈性讓這個通勤組有更有彈性更多的選擇對對對有更多的應用讓我們的票價定期票回溯票這樣的一個優惠能夠更有彈性那目前其實也有其他的委員有其他的建議對包含30天跟60天中間再差一個"},{"start":6898.468,"end":6912.471,"text":"那彈性是正確的了所以現在高鐵公司也有在做檢查高鐵公司應該更加的靈活啦最優惠的一個制度更加的靈活這是我的建議好 以上 謝謝謝謝陳青龍委員的質詢接著我們請林俊憲召委發言"},{"start":6928.424,"end":6944.164,"text":"好 謝謝主席 本席邀請我們交通部陳部長有請陳部長我們中油方董事長請中油方董事長還有我們能源署的吳署長吳代理署長能源署歐代理署長 謝謝"},{"start":6946.65,"end":6973.629,"text":"委員好 部長好在這次的中東危機啊謝謝啦 我想我們政府相關部門大家都很合作那也很辛苦啦那至少第一個我們目前的一些物價的調漲啊都看起來跟其他國家來比啦台灣其實狀況都還控制得還不錯啦當然未來的危機還沒有解除啦"},{"start":6974.54,"end":6976.583,"text":"我們現在手裡掌握確定的量到多少"},{"start":6994.065,"end":7017.987,"text":"目前都掌握在維持在12天以上所以法定時我們到12天那4月本月份的供應量有沒有問題沒有問題5月份呢5月份沒有問題6月呢6月沒問題我們在佈局是7月以後的7月以後所以至少我們目前有三個月幾乎三個月4月5月6月天然氣的供應目前量"},{"start":7018.607,"end":7031.254,"text":"我們終有掌握住了嗎是 都掌握住另外就是油價現在我們大概漲了以95無限汽油來講漲了18%差不多那未來還會再調漲嗎未來會不會調漲就看我們現在的掌握的供應量你覺得是比上個月還要好了就是說狀況又緩和了還是更嚴重"},{"start":7045.188,"end":7055.857,"text":"在量的部分的話現在的一個掌握的情形是比上個月要好很多了那好很多的話那未來渴望不會再調漲了吧"},{"start":7056.702,"end":7084.62,"text":"這是量的部分但價格的部分的話就要看國際的油價國際油價它變化的情形再來做每週的一個檢討至少我們台灣第一個油價有的國家根本是漲翻天了漲一倍以上都有甚至根本買不到油所以加油站大排長龍至少我要肯定我們政府團隊就民心就是說這個安定你看到加油站"},{"start":7085.72,"end":7105.346,"text":"沒有人在排隊吧我想中油應該也特別注意到這種狀況嘛因為你有的國家是根本你有錢也交不到油所以加油站就出現恐慌性的大家這樣去排隊啦至少這個在台灣也沒有看到啦沒有目前都是加油站的機制都維持戰前都是一模一樣的"},{"start":7106.346,"end":7123.493,"text":"所以我們希望政府相關團隊的相關部會我們這個團隊大家未來要緊密的在合作至少在危機還沒有解除現在看起來不知道什麼時候可以解除這也沒有人知道了我們大家持續努力謝謝大家辛苦了兩位請回座兩位想要補充的"},{"start":7131.204,"end":7145.931,"text":"跟委員報告一下這個基本上該委員問的那個部分我們會持續去滾動檢討我們相關的機制那我們基本上就是我們還是秉持一個就是第一個就是量要足加要穩這兩個政策跟委員報告謝謝好謝謝兩位請回座請陳部長陳部長我另外再跟你關心一下我們一個民生問題"},{"start":7153.354,"end":7174.561,"text":"部長有沒有坐過多元計程車?你坐到寶庭我看不機會坐有啦 時尚座你坐寶庭還要坐幾乎每個禮拜都會坐那是我坐的我也會坐 我每個禮拜都會坐你說現在計程車大部分都已經是透過網路平台多元計程車多元計程車網路平台已經達到了72.5%"},{"start":7177.532,"end":7205.814,"text":"現在司機已經很少會巡迴覽客了大概只有台北市你還看得到其他很多地方空計程車在街上這樣跑已經很少了尤其現在油價這麼貴所以已經72.5%都是透過網路轎車了或者是招呼站 或者是熟客人家可以指定轎車 或者是定點排班那我們台灣的多元計程車登記的數量"},{"start":7207.711,"end":7235.927,"text":"我記得我剛到交通委員會的那一年台灣的多元計程車不到不到一千台八百多台到現在2025年台灣的多元計程車已經從八百部增加到三萬六千部這增加4.5倍所以這其中我就要跟部長討論一個問題那就是平台的問題"},{"start":7237.543,"end":7265.409,"text":"那前幾天有發生兩個新聞 你有沒有看到第一個很不幸的台64線發生多元車輛 多元計程車把一個年輕人強行丟包丟在快速道路上那這位年輕人就被後續的車輛給四台車把他給撞死了第二個就是有家長指控Uber的司機因為他把他43歲的女兒丟包因為他女兒好像是改變路線還是怎麼樣那駕駛就把他丟在路邊了"},{"start":7266.714,"end":7290.011,"text":"因為駕駛趕著要說他要接另外下一個單那這種狀況下你看未成年少女他43歲他身上一毛錢都沒有就站在路邊哭那在這裡出現一個問題如果出現了像這樣那消費者如果權益受損甚至發生 甚至有發生命案那平台有沒有負責任第一個"},{"start":7293.154,"end":7314.5,"text":"旅客被丟包撞死的這個平台說 不關我的事啊我只是負責媒介 他說他有些人叫這樣他拒絕 他認為說法律上他沒有任何責任那實際上現在平台 第一個他審核司機的資格第二個他派單邏輯是他決定的第三 價格機制"},{"start":7319.361,"end":7346.497,"text":"而且他有抽取佣金所以他透過對司機的平等 平價系統甚至可以影響司機的收入和他的生活我再告訴你平台現在是掌控了整個運輸服務的核心權利平台的權利很大 對不對這都是他的權利 一旦發生重大事故平台現在說 我只是媒合"},{"start":7347.898,"end":7371.496,"text":"然後把風險還有賠償的責任全部都丟給駕駛甚至我們整個社會要來承擔這種有權無責過去你不會感受到那現在台灣的多元計程車已經達到這麼高的數量了而且國人的使用習慣已經駕駛了他加入這個平台叫車已經達到超過七成了"},{"start":7372.716,"end":7386.262,"text":"這狀況下 我們對於平台的裁罰或管理你看 撞死了那一次 那個平台司機丟包害那個人被撞死我們只裁罰平台一萬多塊"},{"start":7390.489,"end":7406.907,"text":"他負的責任跟他長有的權利顯然不成比例我們再來看其他國家現在很多國家 現在幾乎全世界都是平台這平台在叫車 就多元車輛 計程車新加坡 你平台有很重的責任"},{"start":7407.932,"end":7437.222,"text":"你注意看那政府監理手段我也給大家參考政府是可以撤銷營運執照那英國也是啦澳洲也是韓國也是只有台灣第一個平台是沒有責任的那政府也沒什麼監理手段那請教一下部長你對現在平台對於多元車輛的平台是否應該要負起相關責任還有政府是否應該要有一定的監理手段來部長你的看法"},{"start":7437.99,"end":7465.025,"text":"像委員報告確實平台也應該要負起一些責任所以我們目前對於交通部來講平台跟車隊其實是綁在一起的對我們的角度來看他們都是要共同負起所謂的行政責任那民事責任的部分還有一塊除了車隊跟平台以外還有一個是車行車行必須負起民事責任所以之前所看到的案件他的民事的賠償大概車行就必須要負起責任那刑事的部分當然就在駕駛你看"},{"start":7465.805,"end":7484.92,"text":"上次那個丟包的事情平台你只罰他一萬多塊他第一時間說這不關我的事啊我只負責媒介我現在講的不是車隊我講的是平台是車隊跟這個平台其實是綁在一起的我們是罰車隊比較多因為要負起行政管理責任但是他們會綁在一起"},{"start":7485.64,"end":7506.95,"text":"車隊沒有辦法去做不是他在做這個媒介的工作啦很多國家我現在給你看啦我因為時間的關係啦你現在目前你根本沒有一個監理手段啦你去比較一下台灣跟新加坡英國澳洲韓國我們台灣幾乎是政府是完全沒有監理手段你這種事情其他國家這種平等他絕對不敢說這不關我的事"},{"start":7507.45,"end":7513.812,"text":"我們會盡量讓平台要負起責任你要去修改保障消費者權益 保障司機我們會盡量來保障消費者的權益 這個我們會來努力委員這個建議很好 謝謝謝謝林俊憲 張偉德發言那我們接著有請陳雪生委員發言"},{"start":7541.052,"end":7553.116,"text":"好 那陳委員稍等齁待會黃建華委員發言完我會處理民事提案齁那徐屋奎委員發言完我們休息十分鐘好 謝謝 請陳委員好 謝謝趙偉 是不是請部長好 請陳部長陳部長 陳部長 陳部長 陳部長公請陳部長部長今天 今天天氣很好"},{"start":7570.507,"end":7587.15,"text":"天氣還蠻溫暖馬祖霧很大這個季節 春天馬祖跟金門霧的機率比較高一些來個雨 太陽一出來 霧很大雲高也不對 能見度也不行所以"},{"start":7589.045,"end":7611.951,"text":"最近我們那個新台馬輪發揮很大的作用然後那個小船南北海運他的小船500噸也發揮很大的功能把一些旅客、觀光客、我們民眾都運過來還有那個是不是請一下那個誰華航董事長高董事長我們請華航的高董事長謝謝,謝謝召委"},{"start":7621.772,"end":7650.338,"text":"高董,我今天要讚美你,你真的好棒棒你當了董事長,我跟謝董很好,我跟你還不是很好後來當然現在也很好了你不但飛了馬祖,承載了我們的航空然後還要加班,還要再飛一架次禮拜一這個計畫成熟了沒有?現在就等第13架的ATR到了"},{"start":7651.343,"end":7668.682,"text":"我就可以了?好昨天我們副昆吉總召委很緊張你要把花蓮油價的因素是不是要停掉?有這個打算嗎?我目前是想說你麥克風拿起來講話"},{"start":7671.459,"end":7692.168,"text":"跟委員報告一下我們現在希望的就是說在某一些那個情況之下不要浪費掉那個運能那把這個運能放到在那個地面交通沒有辦法到達的像離島啊這個是比較對我們來講對民生來講是應該是比較重要的那個航線那目前都還在討論當中"},{"start":7693.683,"end":7712.824,"text":"不過基於對委員的尊重,區域委員有他的壓力,還是要溝通協調好不好?是尤其在油料上漲,我一直生怕說,當然你沒得停了啦,一個禮拜只有一班嘛對不對?利融的話我就怕他減班啊幹什麼的,當然利融是民間的航空公司啊"},{"start":7713.766,"end":7734.2,"text":"所以我覺得高董上來以後,對我們釋出很大的善意好不好?部長,你要不會保養他一下?當然當然好,請回部長講到航空公司,我再提一下昨天國發會有開會,對我們有關相關離島的一些補助很糟糕"},{"start":7744.352,"end":7772.361,"text":"昨天就已經否決了不同意了如果部長如果你站在我的角度你是立法委員你站在這裡然後你在那邊審預算那我們很多的預算已經被否決掉了你叫我審預算審什麼預算你叫我審預算審誰的預算我的預算都被你否決掉啦"},{"start":7773.803,"end":7801.138,"text":"那我一定全部都把他砍掉嘛一定是這樣嘛如果是你是不是這樣子如果你是立法委會不會這樣不一定啦不一定喔有嗎 你學佛的啊你是哪一教的天主教基督教我找不到這樣的信徒欸我昨天已經知道你把我地區的預算都已經全部砍掉廣東署有沒有來廣東署在這邊"},{"start":7801.963,"end":7827.603,"text":"國防署在哪裡副署長對不起你報預算全部都砍掉了國防署沒有砍有行銷活動行銷活動及智慧旅遊品質提升計畫離島基金你們要給五千六百萬昨天已經很相信沒了"},{"start":7829.205,"end":7854.636,"text":"現在中央是交通部公安署你們也沒辦法保證那這個契機中間就停擺了嘛停擺了那你要這個基金幹什麼?離島基金啊離島基金你國防會都不給不是只有金門馬祖耶金門馬祖是國民黨的還有澎湖,澎湖是民進黨籍的執政耶這個不能這樣搞嘛"},{"start":7859.485,"end":7859.988,"text":"你這樣審一審你家伙怎麼審"},{"start":7862.079,"end":7890.282,"text":"我連審都不審啊現在不是馬上要審預算了嗎你這種態度的話你叫我怎麼審得下去向委員報告您在說的這個行銷的部分是因為馬祖的這個縣政府連江縣政府他們提出計畫的時間有比較晚一點所以有點來不及不過我們觀光署已經有跟這個國發會這邊來協調過了現在送過來之後我們後續還是會來協助他來爭取到這個預算我們要審預算也是延後啦已經"},{"start":7891.002,"end":7914.489,"text":"多少天沒審啊報告委員這個部分不用擔心這個部分我們已經跟國發會已經有共識了是當時連江縣政府送的比較慢不是不用擔心我生不著覺啊你不用擔心你講不用擔心你看還有那個與神同行2.0媽祖海巡媽祖平安祈福你們給540萬我們這個60萬都被打回票了都沒有了"},{"start":7916.821,"end":7943,"text":"這沒有道理吧委員我剛剛有講過這個也包含在剛剛那個案子裡面我們已經跟國發會有共識了我們後面會來協助他把這個預算還有上一次我諮詢你大邱那個旅遊活動中心一億多都蓋好了現在第二期機會五千萬我現在蓋了一半蓋了一半房子在那邊等等進度等進度你現在五千萬你不撥那個是我們"},{"start":7947.847,"end":7972.469,"text":"我們縣政府代執行你知道嗎本來這個是官方所要去執行的啦大邱這個沒有問題啦這個部分沒問題總預算過了都不會有問題總預算過了不會有問題你說哪裡總預算這一次的大邱二期因為財化法的緣故啦其他的不會那等你們預算通過"},{"start":7973.769,"end":8003.092,"text":"沒通過就擺在那邊曬風吹日曬雨淋這好像不是一個政府的態度吧沒通過不能花錢沒通過錢就不能花你站在我的立場你如果是立法委員的話你面對你交通部的預算你怎麼樣去處理它怎麼樣去審它將心比心你想好以後你不要說我拿著刀子在砍你們在殺你們"},{"start":8004.72,"end":8028.479,"text":"這樣合理嗎報告委員您剛剛所關心的那個七期的部分那個行銷的費用我也跟您報告現在第三次這個沒有問題我們跟國發會已經有共識所以這個不會造成你只是講其中之一啊我剛才跟你講那個是蓋房子蓋一半還有航空機駐地備勤的經費補助這裡面牽涉到東影跟那個你們只補助了多少錢啊"},{"start":8030.626,"end":8048.017,"text":"很像只給了2153萬你這影響到舉官跟民眾的交通權益你回去查一下好不好好 報告委員這個部分我還第一次聽到那我回去了解一下沒關係 你回去查一下好不好報告委員這個也是因為財化法的因素啦"},{"start":8048.217,"end":8077.541,"text":"您剛剛在講大邱那個也是財化法的因素那這個也是一樣就是說錢都是政府的那現在多一些已經在地方政府了那地方政府就可以負起更大的責任那我們這邊也不會把錢留住我們能夠花的錢我們一定會補助到地方現在的財政部跟組織總處齁一直拿說財化法的問題來空我們欸 全國各縣市財化法都占到便宜欸唯獨馬祖是負的啊負的現在勒"},{"start":8079.441,"end":8099.353,"text":"財政部給一個正的正的也就幫你平衡而已好啦 那很多錢你們要地方政府去出我地方政府也只是打平而已我沒有賺到錢啊不像其他各縣市政府金門多了一百多億啊我們沒有多啊我們一兩億都沒多啊"},{"start":8101.118,"end":8123.075,"text":"不公平嘛報告委員其實交通部也沒有賺到錢交通部也是減少的那我們只要我們擁有的預算一定會全力來協助地方這個您放心不是我沒有去責難你的意思我是希望就是說你將心比心嘛你站在你也是立法委員的立場來看待這個交通部"},{"start":8124.366,"end":8145.982,"text":"好不好你不要一直站在交通部的立場來看來看我們立法委員有沒有在那邊胡扯亂扯我沒有欸我對你們是很有善的是委員都是為了地方在爭取這個我了解有啊我也為了你們交通部也在努力啊是不是每次審議算我們我們召委據監委員跟我你看同事多少年了"},{"start":8147.796,"end":8171.455,"text":"是不是這樣,好不好?謝謝委員那他在說我了,時間到了我就不講了好不好,謝謝了非常感謝陳雪生委員好,謝謝陳委員接下來我們要請黃建豪召委發言後面兩個在等"},{"start":8176.26,"end":8181.788,"text":"好謝謝主席我們要先請交通部陳部長請陳部長然後我們請鐵道局楊局長請楊局長"},{"start":8187.233,"end":8214.03,"text":"委員好部長早部長一開始還是要跟你就教一下我們台中捷運幾個問題當然我最關心當然是我們這個捷運綠線延伸的問題台中市在我們在我們在1月114年1月13號的時候我們有去現砍嘛那時候有一些現在現場一些結論那台中市政府在這個今年去年1百1百對不起今年115年2月26號的時候有提報相關的這個綜合變化到交通部那我想要肯定啦肯定什麼呢"},{"start":8214.91,"end":8236.989,"text":"4月8號你把他退回了肯定什麼 就是至少這個時辰沒有拖很久才退回2月26到4月8號終於過了兩個年假所以整個大概一個月內 看一看你們覺得不合適就把他退回那你們希望說 目的是希望說等到這個張東都市計畫內政部核定後再來提報審議這個我們討論過非常多次就是張華的都市計畫不在台中市這個"},{"start":8238.769,"end":8258.68,"text":"可以管轄的範圍裡面所以如果要要求到這個張東都市計畫提報審議才能審議的話我想這個捷運的進度會一直無限期的延長所以那裡面今天你們提到退回的理由提到說要等到張東都市計畫核定後才能去送可是當初我們談的應該說那個核定後才抱怨"},{"start":8259.537,"end":8275.214,"text":"才去報行政院那現在這個階段你把他退回那他市府一定想重送嗎那我們作為這個台中立委想問一件事情讓我重送給交通部的時候要怎麼樣符合什麼樣條件你才不會再把他退回才能進入正式的審議階段我請局長回答好 謝謝"},{"start":8277.105,"end":8298.958,"text":"跟委員報告因為當初院核定的時候可行性研究的時候就附帶這樣的一個核定的指示對也就是說希望張東都是要通過之後再來提報行政院那現階段交通部要進行審議的話顯然這個會變成是一個要件也就是說這個部分沒有達成就沒有辦法完成這一個行政上面的審查的程序"},{"start":8299.764,"end":8323.967,"text":"我們記得那時候在考察的時候也提到一件事情希望說這個同步進行嘛 你一邊審你審又不是今天 今天是我們那天就好我一邊審的時候搞不好張東都市計畫那邊會有些變數嘛會有些可能這個其他有關技術跟財務跟運量的部分我們可以來同步進行相關的審查動作但是如果我們要送出門恐怕這個行政院的要件必須要達成"},{"start":8324.728,"end":8346.001,"text":"對啊 那我說那現在 問題是現在我要我們不要花太多時間在這個事情上面 我是想說今天我要重新送到交通部來審你審完你才會抱怨嘛 終點還要經過國發會有的沒有的 很多行政的時間那我今天您退回了今天4月8號退回台中市政府之後台中市政府今天要重送 它一定要有一個什麼樣的改變"},{"start":8347.236,"end":8373.389,"text":"才有意義嘛好那你們明確指示一下他重送的話要怎麼樣您現在台中市政府送過來您剛所提到的包含他的經費包含他的技術層面等等的我們先做實質的審議啦真正來做討論那對於行政院所要求的那個大方向如果不符合我們沒辦法送出去但您所關心的這個希望就其他的面向我們來做實際上的審查那這個我們來做這個沒有問題"},{"start":8374.73,"end":8397.612,"text":"好那我知道了我們後面再來溝通那再來一樣是還是一樣捷運我們台中市太多捷運都還停擺的卡住那是停擺了這個藍線也是個問題我們在這個113年1月29號的時候當然行政原則同意藍線綜合規劃案那當初原則同意的公文裡面有一句話講說因為是原則同意所以有些條件那要報請一樣要報請行政院在計畫動作前抱怨核定"},{"start":8398.453,"end":8428.013,"text":"那這個計畫呢在5月21號的時候交通部幫我們在1月113年5月21號也就是兩年前的5月21號交通部有幫我們核轉核到行政院去但從那個時候到現在行政院還是一直沒有回市政府說到底後續怎麼樣就是包含說在這份公文裡面喔在後續我再跟你討論啦就是說台中市的藍線已經動工了但是當初公文裡面有一件事情是說動工前要抱怨核定這個新的計畫那這個東西如果沒有完備的話會不會影響到我們後續動工的流程"},{"start":8429.093,"end":8453.339,"text":"會吧各位報告這個程序我們有在follow那目前我們的觀察是應該不會影響好謝謝再一個局限局限在我們113年7月2號也是兩年也是兩年前交通部終於願意我們的這個可經濟化那中間經過幾個流程10月1號市府送到交通部那交通部後來合轉到行政院去那在114年8月1號"},{"start":8455.499,"end":8483.785,"text":"市府又重新送了一遍說要要要促餐嘛那後來促餐那邊說不用促餐所以115年這個2月2號交通部現在終於把這個可行性研究送到行政院審議了從113年7月2號到115年2月2號這個時間就這樣這個時間已經現在已經送出去行政院核定那送行政院核定到底什麼時候會回來給台中市政府有沒有這個預計的啟程這個目前是行政院在處理當中我想我們沒有辦法去預定他的啟程"},{"start":8484.793,"end":8499.595,"text":"好 部長我跟您報告我跟您拜託啦如果說台中市這個幾個重大的捷運建設我想對台中市的發展都非常的重要台中市人口現在真的是非常多嘛你看一個將近300萬的城市現在就一條捷運我想從台灣各大城市來講這個配比相對是比較少一點"},{"start":8500.296,"end":8526.363,"text":"所以我們希望說在行政流程上至少在部這邊在文書作業上我們能夠加快的好不好後續幾個問題交通部會來加速我也希望台中的捷運的速度可以再加快一點當然一定要這個再來一樣是一個政策問題但今天討論到這個這個能源上漲問題大家都很在意說這個未來的車輛未來的相關的這些新形態的這個汽車的補助或者它的研發能夠往節能的方向來走"},{"start":8528.303,"end":8535.856,"text":"那之前這個為了配合我們政府的2050近年關鍵戰略的這個運具電動化跟無碳化有一個這樣子的國產電動車的這個計畫那當然"},{"start":8541.271,"end":8565.71,"text":"這後來這個車子也演發出來的那交通部呢在去年5月6號的時候開了一個運輸部門檢探旗艦的這個社會溝通會議提出是好意啦說商用車商用車輛電動化跟無碳化的這個計畫裡面要針對電動小貨車每台50萬元的購車補助有這樣子一個計畫而這去年提出來去年9月30號核定114年9月30號核定核定完之後他現在因為錢沒有進來嘛"},{"start":8571.377,"end":8575.466,"text":"那搞出什么现在业界的问题是说我车已经准备好料都准备好"},{"start":8576.618,"end":8604.044,"text":"之前的造價 用之前的造價就準備好了可是因為市場上在等這個所謂50萬元的補助但是這補助一直沒有上路啊那所以導致整個市場停板報告委員 因為它去年9月核定也來不及編今年的預算因為去年我們在9月更早之前我們就已經編列了今年的預算所以來不及放進來但我們這個部分的計畫會放在明年的預算我們今年會把它編進來編到明年的預算所以明年就可以落實這個部分沒有問題"},{"start":8604.764,"end":8626.504,"text":"部長是這樣啦 我覺得要把這個實務面跟你說明一下啦今天這些車廠這些民間業者他們配合政府政策已經把相關的這些車子都已經準備好做好了也希望能夠順利的趕快上市趕快來進行這個商業上的這個行為但是因為大家市場上大家又在觀望所謂的50萬元的補助"},{"start":8628.286,"end":8644.896,"text":"有沒有一種可能性說既然如果這是確定要做的也是你們承諾要做的不管預算先強調這不是我們沒有審的沒有審預算的問題這個是本來就沒有編進去那既然這確定要做那是不是讓這個政策可以先上路你真的明年度編進來之後後續再去補嘛就跟你"},{"start":8645.796,"end":8656.004,"text":"報稅一樣啊就跟說這種房地合一稅要減稅一樣啊我後續再遞相關的文件來證明說我在這段期間買的車子我一樣可以適用這個50萬元電動車的補助要不然整個商業市場整個這種運氣就停下來了可以這樣做嗎"},{"start":8661.207,"end":8677.101,"text":"報告委員今年預算裡面沒有包含這一項那能不能這樣子指引我們回去再討論你什麼時候可以給大家一個說法我們今年一定會把這個細部的審查的計畫先把它提好明年只要時間一到提進來我們就有辦法順利來審查"},{"start":8678.883,"end":8695.471,"text":"這沒問題我是說當然如果你當然錢進來了預算都上路當然這沒問題但我現在說能不能先走我們的預算有沒有辦法這樣支應第一法規上行不行第二我們有沒有錢這也是很關鍵的目前交通部的預算不太足夠的狀況底下能不能做我們討論一下"},{"start":8696.331,"end":8723.263,"text":"因為我要跟你講 我要先講我肯定你們是好意 你需要補助50萬元讓大家能夠多多的去採購電動的貨車把過去舊的那種柴油或者是這種汽油的貨車來把它淘汰掉希望往電動車的方向來發展這個是OK的 我覺得是好的方向但問題是時間點今天市場上已經有這個東西了那大家也都準備好 也配合經濟部趕快把它弄出來準備要做了結果因為你丟出一個50萬元補助的這個"},{"start":8725.224,"end":8752.117,"text":"這個補助所以消費者覺得說那我如果現在買我就虧五十萬欸不是五萬是五十萬當然對這些這些自營商或中廠企業主來講這個影響非常大嘛委員在說是要解決今年的問題對啊我們來討論一下好不好好我們來討論一下OK謝謝好我們感謝黃建豪召委好各位委員那我們現在就處理臨時提案"},{"start":8754.924,"end":8756.855,"text":"請醫事人員一併宣讀第一案"},{"start":8758.978,"end":8785.056,"text":"臨時提案一 依據官方統計資料顯示114年高鐵嘉義站全年進出旅客670萬人次平均日運量達18000人次為因應嘉義市地方發展並保障民眾通勤權益請交通部會同高鐵公司研議增開嘉義站往返台北之快車與夜間班次以提供更為及時便捷的高鐵運輸服務"},{"start":8786.497,"end":8791.626,"text":"提案委員 陳素月 徐富奎 何新淳 王美惠"},{"start":8792.932,"end":8820.461,"text":"二有鑒於國內花蓮航線因近年天災不斷近期發生中東戰爭面臨油價成本上漲的困境航空業者出現停飛航班的聲音基於保障花東居民的基本交通權益及積極促進花東觀光發展要求交通部針對國內花蓮航線國家級的承諾備援生命線的持續運行以落實區域平衡交通平權"},{"start":8821.381,"end":8838.237,"text":"與二周內提出專案報告提案委員黃建豪、萬美玲、陳雪生、洪孟凱、魯明哲、布昆奇、鄭天才宣讀完畢好 謝謝我們各位委員及行政單位有沒有意見第一案"},{"start":8839.725,"end":8866.969,"text":"委員有意見嗎跟主席報告台灣高鐵公司這邊補充說明114年高鐵嘉義站確定進出旅客人次是671萬人次那後續高鐵公司會就委員的建議會進行後續的研議評估好感謝就是那個稍微修正一下那個進出站的人次有670改為671好各位委員如果沒有意見的話那本案就修正通過好第一案"},{"start":8868.373,"end":8871.808,"text":"各位委員有沒有意見好 行政部門來請發言"},{"start":8875.933,"end":8904.259,"text":"黃建華委員 不好意思補充一下這個當然大家都很關心我們這個花蓮這部分的這個對外聯絡交通所以說今天我們來也非常多黨籍委員也是一起來關心這個案子我們希望說還是要站在這個交通的角度就是這種花蓮它的地形它的氣候比較特跟我們西部城市還是不太一樣所以我覺得還是要考量到這個他們當地民眾的這個運具的需求我希望說這個提案能夠這個交通部能夠支持以上"},{"start":8905.68,"end":8908.321,"text":"各位委員如果對上述提案要補簽列入紀錄並且刊登公報"},{"start":8931.257,"end":8955.034,"text":"好 那我們現在就開始繼續進行詢問請徐祿魁委員發言徐委員發言完 我們就休息10分鐘謝主席 邀請我們陳部長請陳部長民調局何局長請何局長觀光署黃副署長黃副署長你好"},{"start":8961.13,"end":8984.59,"text":"是 部長部長我看了一下新聞您昨天有到中部是也幫我們交通部來行銷跟著馬祖走了一段路我們的氣象軍氣象軍會累嗎很熱 流很多汗 但不會累不會累我想應該馬祖會給你無比的一個力量讓你面對這樣的一個狀況是 謝謝"},{"start":8989.034,"end":9013.074,"text":"部長我想最近大家一直在討論隨著中東地緣局勢的影響當然國內國際的航空燃油價格大幅的波動民進黨局最近也發布了一個消息針對短期航線燃油附加費從每人7.5美元調漲為45美元長程的調幅更恐怖"},{"start":9013.935,"end":9032.062,"text":"從每人45.5調漲為117美元漲幅高達157%那不少的航空公司也跟著調漲了這個定位的服務費那我想針對這樣的一個機票的一個調整當然這個有兩極化的一個看法有人會說出國的人數會受到影響"},{"start":9035.683,"end":9060.04,"text":"那國旅的部分也會受到一個刺激會成長那部長個人的看法像委員報告我們國旅其實在這兩三年都穩定的在成長當中包含前一陣子我們看到墾丁的這個台灣季的部分也是人山人海那甚至是道路上面我們輸運的壓力也相當的大所以看得出來其實最近幾次的連假國旅的定房率其實都相當的高"},{"start":9060.62,"end":9075.579,"text":"那在交通的運輸的層面我們也是旅創新高啦所以國旅在這幾年都穩定的在上升那確實最近因為油價的這個推升啦會讓這個國際的旅遊來說的話成本會提高那我相信也會有一些國人就會選擇在國內旅行"},{"start":9077.401,"end":9092.881,"text":"因為畢竟國際的航空的油價提高之後整個票價提升他們出國民眾出國的成本也就提高了那民眾大家會去算現在油價整個高漲的狀況底下生活上的經費是不是留在台灣來遊玩會更有效率"},{"start":9094.127,"end":9110.859,"text":"部長那當然因為現在受到這個美伊戰爭的這個衝擊那到底這個戰爭什麼時候會結束 沒人知道那所以我們目前這個調整的一個方案是屬於一個短期的還是會怎麼樣的滾動解套我想這也是很多國人的一個關心的一個議題"},{"start":9112.279,"end":9136.242,"text":"是 報告委員這個油價我們要看它整體的變化那我們今天一直在報告的內容就是說針對公共運輸的部分我們除了提到今年底的整體的支應的預算之外我們也有提到明年的整體的預算所以至少我們的估算跟協助會到明年的116年的年底那這個部分我們正在做整體的估算但是要看行政院這邊它的整體規劃是什麼樣子"},{"start":9137.725,"end":9154.692,"text":"部長回過頭來我們還是要講到一個重點總預算的問題跟財化法的問題我想一樣屏東縣現在目前許多的中大交通建設我們都希望能夠加快來進行剛剛我聽到台中的黃金陽委員說台中現在有幾十條捷運我們羨慕的不得了我們現在連屏東連第一條都還沒有來"},{"start":9160.592,"end":9170.087,"text":"我想這樣子的一個城鄉差距我認為行政院跟交通部真的應該要去加快速度把一些溜度跟廢溜度的差距應該要來"},{"start":9171.772,"end":9193.375,"text":"努力一下啦跟屏東相關的捷運目前是在高雄市政府所提的計畫當中這個部分我們也是全力來配合在行政作業上盡量節省時間那另外我想昨天有一個很重要的新聞這個國民黨的鄭麗文主席跟中國的習近平主席碰完面之後中共也宣布了這個"},{"start":9194.236,"end":9208.932,"text":"一些會台的一些措施其中包含要恢復兩岸的一個直航讓入客重新回到台灣來重遊台灣部長這個對於我們整個國旅市場您的自己的評估是正面的還是一個毒藥"},{"start":9210.113,"end":9229.289,"text":"像委員報告您在說正面跟毒藥就是我早上在媒體朋友在問我的時候我有說過那時常都說他們遞出橄欖汁但是中國是比較特殊的國家時常會把橄欖汁當作棍子在使用那這個是我們非常擔心的那這幾年其實整個國家的發展我們在觀光業的部分已經朝向多元市場的發展"},{"start":9230.35,"end":9250.664,"text":"那這三四年裡面我們觀光的這個國際旅客的人數也不斷在成長當中速度也不算慢一年都有上百萬甚至幾十萬的成長那我會覺得台灣往多元市場發展是相對健康的因為我還是要再強調一次因為對岸在開心的時候遞出來的叫做橄欖枝"},{"start":9251.685,"end":9271.327,"text":"當他不開心的時候那這橄欖枝他會當棍子來使用那對於我們整體的國家的觀光業的發展不是一個健康的方向那不過我們還是歡迎中國的旅客到台灣不過中國提出的政治限制實在是好多因為一方面我們看到他現在說開放福建跟上海"},{"start":9271.767,"end":9292.541,"text":"那表示什麼表示除了福建跟上海其他的地方的他們中國的人民自由行是被限制的也就是說他們的政治上面的前提相當的多他們沒有全面性的一個開放嘛是那所以如果說福建跟上海叫做善意那其他完全沒開放的那十分之九是不是叫做惡意我覺得這個是我們應該要評估一下"},{"start":9292.901,"end":9321.68,"text":"部長這個我還是要提醒你我想這個未來面對這樣的一個兩岸情勢的一個變化變化萬千那尤其到底這個對岸到目前為止對我們還是非常的不友善那個飛鏈機不是我們一般的飛鏈機啦這個軍機啦軍艦在那邊繞我認為這個對我們來講都是要列入一個到時候邊境的一個管制人中的一個考量部長我想我們省省面對好那兩位請回謝謝"},{"start":9323.522,"end":9342.439,"text":"部長那我想前幾天我們也有特別提到這個退伍會旗下新興跟大南客運的電動公車有紅色供應鏈的一個問題那我這邊也要特別點到我們陶基陶基部長目前陶基第三航廈的進度做到哪裡了"},{"start":9344.691,"end":9359.405,"text":"細部設計正在進行當中已經到了細部設計進行那你們有察覺到我們的創意能源他們參與的標案裡面也有針對這樣的一個電動公車有一個大陸的紅色工業的問題嗎部長有注意到嗎"},{"start":9361.207,"end":9379.115,"text":"委員報告我們契約裡面其實都寫得相當清楚禁止使用中國的資通訊的產品那未來我們也會嚴格的來審核跟審查檢視它裡面到底有沒有中國的資通訊產品如果有的話就代表沒有依據我們的合約在走我們會不讓這件事情發生"},{"start":9380.014,"end":9401.383,"text":"部長我想這個陶基嘛 范總總經理你們的審查過程裡面有沒有問題你們說這個晶片是台灣製造但是而且有第三方的背書但是先被發現這個晶片確實是中國產製的你們有發現這個狀況嗎跟委員報告跟委員報告我們目前的旅客運輸系統"},{"start":9403.791,"end":9428.005,"text":"現階段的作業是在細部設計當中還沒有進入到執行所以委員提示的這個問題我們上週也得到這個訊息我們在上週五除了部長已經剛剛提到契約本身就有規定以外上週五在特別發函要求廠商確實依照契約的規範來執行我們也要求我們的顧問跟監照要確實把關來嚴格審查"},{"start":9432.049,"end":9445.806,"text":"我想第三行下是這個很多國人的一個期待也是陶磯也是我們的門面啦官方的門面部長我想交通部也應該要負起這個責任是 沒辦法陶磯就要往北部啦我是覺得這樣啦好我們一定要嚴格來檢視這個問題嚴格把關不會讓這樣的事情發生"},{"start":9449.11,"end":9473.554,"text":"好 那我想最後一個問題我還是要特別提到這個要請部長幫忙上個禮拜我特別針對這個機車考照的部分有邀集我們交通部相關的同仁來開會討論那果不其然引起了這個全國很多這個縣市相親的一個熱議的一個對立的一個討論那我想剛剛包含我們許多委員也有提到部長確實現在這個要上網登錄這個機車考照"},{"start":9478.655,"end":9500.085,"text":"比搶演唱會的門票還困難報告委員您有跟我提示過這件事啦那我也有關注到說確實我們在這兩年的這個提供的名額有下降那委員跟我提醒完之後我們有請這個公路局來做這方面的研議我們目前的規劃是每一天要增加10%左右的這個報名的名額這是第一點"},{"start":9500.925,"end":9519.091,"text":"那第二點針對尤其是屏東確實我們有看到有一些區域他的這個可以報名跟考試的這個額度確實是落差蠻大的尤其是在屏東的部分那我們公路局這邊也有做出一個計畫針對屏東的部分看怎麼樣協助讓他這個報考的名額可以提升那第三點就是針對過去在"},{"start":9521.413,"end":9539.026,"text":"預約報考的過程當中確實有一些缺考的一個狀況就是說實際有倒考的只有75%那我們也做過檢討在1月份有做過檢討到現在已經把倒考率提升到97%也就是說浪費的名額也減少所以這三個方向我們希望能夠解決民眾所關心的這個議題考照的一套"},{"start":9539.855,"end":9551.909,"text":"我想我也有特別提出當天有特別提出這三項的一個要求那我想我也希望我們交通部從善如流第一個增加每日機車考照的名額上限因為我們目前屏東有33個鄉鎮"},{"start":9554.434,"end":9575.069,"text":"有山地有原住民地區有平地也有離島目前只有恆春跟屏東兩個考照一個禮拜不到300個名額你給這個中培是多少年輕人他怎麼辦他不可能總是無照上路啊我們不可能叫他違規啊但是因為沒辦法趕快去考照所以我認為這要加快速度第二個針對這個監禮站當然"},{"start":9576.91,"end":9596.164,"text":"有些人會講說我們有一些民間的教訓場也可以考但問題是對很多鄉親來講他們還是信賴我們的建立這樣的一個考照系統所以能不能強化你們那個預約系統的增加後補預約功能那這一點那天我有跟你們同仁討論我們要主動積極一點啊不能說人不來課這個命令浪費掉我認為這個是不負責任的做法"},{"start":9599.867,"end":9621.599,"text":"你這個A不能考你總是在通知B通知C嘛把硬考慮可以再提高一點嘛要把名額浪費掉那第三個在還沒有整個增加名額能夠大幅提升的狀況之下能不能增加下鄉考照的一個頻率有些鄉鎮已經有在run了嘛部長這部分能不能再增加能不能給我們一個正面的答覆"},{"start":9623.062,"end":9644.457,"text":"報告委員 下鄉的部分我們會來規劃尤其我剛剛有提到屏東的部分確實落差蠻大的所以我們針對屏東的部分會來特別做處理跟協助那天我開完協調會之後我們的鄉親公號他們光是做因為沒有要去考照 早上5點要出門來到屏東營考你看因為距離很遠對 沒有錯部長 要麻煩你正視這個問題一下好 謝謝 謝謝委員"},{"start":9649.09,"end":9653.773,"text":"好 我們感謝徐副委員好 感謝部長好 我們休息十分鐘"},{"start":9676.638,"end":9679.821,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":9691.903,"end":9708.387,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":9718.092,"end":9729.855,"text":"謝謝大家。"},{"start":9760.711,"end":9761.292,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":9764.394,"end":9775.595,"text":"加油加油加油"},{"start":9787.756,"end":9805.302,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":9823.012,"end":9830.674,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":9854.07,"end":9865.981,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":9877.869,"end":9877.889,"text":"蝦仁"},{"start":9893.173,"end":9894.535,"text":"鸡蛋"},{"start":10296.74,"end":10303.522,"text":"好請就座那我們繼續開會接下來我們邀請何欣淳委員發言好謝謝最認真最英俊的趙偉"},{"start":10317.383,"end":10322.285,"text":"我們請最認真也最英俊的交通部部長好 我們請陳部長部長好 部長我看到你昨天有背著一個儀器然後去跟著白沙屯馬祖走路對不對是 那個是行動氣象儀行動氣象儀就是氣象軍啦我們氣象署說那個叫氣象軍那為什麼會特地背著那個去走"},{"start":10345.886,"end":10374.162,"text":"報告委員因為我們這次白沙屯媽祖跟著他走的人四十幾萬人那四十到六十萬人這麼多的人那我們希望說能夠提供每一分鐘最新的就是走的過程當中地面上面的濕度溫度跟他目前的曝曬指數就是說紫外線曬的指數對對對我們希望每一分鐘提供給所有的信徒那他們看到這個之後呢他們就知道什麼時候應該要想辦法避暑那什麼時候有可能會下雨這個部分我們也都會提供資料"},{"start":10374.502,"end":10396.04,"text":"所以是透過你身上背的那個行動氣象儀能夠得到這些我相信現在的科技包括AI包括數位包括這些相關的系統整合所有這個行動的氣象儀但是透過你背的那一個載具之外是我們沿途都有相關的這個行動車輛嗎沒有另外用車還是有建制"},{"start":10401.496,"end":10425.143,"text":"他目前就是透過這個可能有SIM卡之類的通訊的機制從那個機器會直接傳送出來那你今天沒有背著他跟著白沙屯媽祖走那現在跟著白沙屯媽祖走的這些46萬的信眾們那他又如何得知是 報告委員因為我們的氣象署的同仁真的大家很辛苦我昨天會下去是因為他們會全程跟著走"},{"start":10425.983,"end":10449.421,"text":"對 我就是要你講出這一句話我們是不是先給他們鼓掌一下好不好謝謝 真的這些同仁真的好辛苦 每一個都曬得非常的黑不過我相信白沙屯媽祖會保佑他們的因為他們有這份心而且我們行政單位可以這麼貼心的能夠提供這個措施這是今年第一次嗎 還是往年都有"},{"start":10450.154,"end":10464.535,"text":"往年我們是沿途來做氣象的報告跟報導但我們為了更貼近真正大家的體感的溫度跟感受所以我們今年是第一次用行動氣象儀跟著大家走好我也希望未來我們相關的其他單位能夠也能夠"},{"start":10465.757,"end":10486.739,"text":"第一個跟得上這個民眾的日常跟得上民眾的這個生活那能夠的透過這樣子的一個宗教的大盛事或者是其他領域的大盛事也可以讓大家感受到政府部門是很貼近民意的是很貼近"},{"start":10487.219,"end":10507.466,"text":"民眾的生活的政府部門是很貼心的好不好我覺得我今天一開始舉這個例子是因為我昨天看到新聞報導我是要先給我們交通部陳部長以及我們隨行的所有的人一個大大的鼓勵尤其是氣象署對不對好謝謝那第二個我今天要談"},{"start":10508.989,"end":10520.117,"text":"這個物價的問題因為燃油我看今天早上很多委員都在關心這件事這個4月7號的國籍航空的燃油附加費用有調漲所以國際線的票價有調漲是沒有錯"},{"start":10524,"end":10543.634,"text":"根據這個有調數的資料 燃油是佔了所有這個航空業的營運成本大概兩三成那所以呢 航空業因為油料的飆漲 所以它成本大漲票價飆漲 那一定是轉嫁給旅客那這個呢 當然因為它叫做國際線有很多的國際航空公司不在我們可以這個"},{"start":10545.836,"end":10565.106,"text":"道德勸說也好或是掌控也好也不再是我們的管轄之內但是我還是希望我們自己可以的國籍航空是不是也能夠盡量盡量的緩漲慢慢漲不要一次漲太大不過要先肯定什麼"},{"start":10566.467,"end":10585.421,"text":"為了穩物價我們的油電是動漲的中油吸收了破百億相對的其實就是政府吸收電我們也維持動漲下一頁那跟交通部有關什麼民航的國內票價首度宣布動漲對不對那請問要動到什麼時候預估"},{"start":10588.423,"end":10603.782,"text":"報告委員因為我們這個實際上它的戰爭會發生多久這個不曉得沒人知道那油價會調漲到多久也不曉得那我們目前除了說短期之內拜託中油來做這個油價的平穩那之後再由交通部編列預算給中油"},{"start":10604.202,"end":10627.598,"text":"我們目前的估算是兩個版本一個是估到12月我們大概要花多少錢那另外一個是估到明年的12月也就是2016年的一整年我們都希望能夠做這樣子的控制那目前預算已經有估算出來那不過這個部分還是要看行政院整體的政策我們的裁員要從哪裡來所以你有AB方案一個是估到今年的年底大概預估我們要"},{"start":10628.098,"end":10655.317,"text":"交通部要補助這個國內航線的用油量是多少預算第二個方案是估到明年的12月但是這個部分是叫做國內航線的用油我接著要跟您討論因為我看到現在上一頁我現在已經看到了4月5月大概不管是哪一個航站從桃園台中高雄已經有268班的國際航班"},{"start":10657.919,"end":10665.481,"text":"取消那我揣測啦我當然不知道是不是這個原因啦是不是跟油價飆漲有關係啦我為什麼會提到這個因為這個取消呢牽動到的是整個產業跟市場包括呢這個旅遊觀光等等都有相關性下一頁以台中來講5月就減少了18個航班那這個部分呢18個航班牽涉到的就是什麼"},{"start":10683.848,"end":10691.88,"text":"國內外旅客的觀光、參旅、住宿、運輸、接駁等各產業會受到影響這個部長你知道嗎"},{"start":10692.529,"end":10715.497,"text":"是 這個我們也都有掌握 包含整個全體就是台灣所有的國際機場 它的航班的變化狀況還有台中機場的變化狀況 我們都在評估當中那目前航空公司會優先減班或者是說把班次減少或合併的這個班次通常都是承載率比較低的也就是說訂票率不高的 他才會先做調整"},{"start":10716.437,"end":10722.383,"text":"我們希望是這樣子啦 希望是跟油價沒有關係有跟油價還是有關係 跟油價是有關係所以他會優先選擇把定位率相對低的把它減少那也就是說定位率高的影響就會很高那所以這個消費者的權益的部分我們也會來顧及就是說他該退費或者說該做這個年費的減免等等之類我們會來跟航空公司來溝通"},{"start":10741.583,"end":10765.996,"text":"對 因為就是這個不是只有這個航空減班的問題也不是只有他們航空公司的營運問題這牽涉到的還有旅客的消費者權益問題還包括了我們的觀光 餐旅 住宿 運輸 接駁等各個產業都會受到影響那這個我是希望提早提醒我們交通部我們民航局包括觀光局我們應該要針對這樣子的一個"},{"start":10769.837,"end":10788.046,"text":"趨勢要先提早做準備要有因應的方案因為我們現在對於這個剛剛講的國內的民航機的用油有補助我們也有對公共運輸的這個公共運輸業也有補貼政策那未來我想來下一頁"},{"start":10790.423,"end":10806.572,"text":"剛剛部長提到的有估兩個方案是針對民航機的國內線的一個用油補助可是我們現在看到您對外所講的穩物價的85億再加上整體的政府的穩定物價的代價是1292億那裁員帶籌措那這些85億裡面是交通部給出來的數字"},{"start":10814.677,"end":10832.426,"text":"預估哪些項目到什麼時候用在什麼何處可用到何時就如同我剛剛在問你的民航機的國內線的用油的補貼你有兩個方案一個是預估到今年年底一個方案是預估到明年的年底那你這個85億到底是怎麼估出來的"},{"start":10833.314,"end":10857.349,"text":"向委員報告我們其實有分陸海空運空運的部分大概是40億左右那陸運的部分我們目前估算也差不多接近40億那海運的部分目前估算是差不多6億所以是用整體的海陸空這樣子大概來抓用在何處都只有這個燃油的一個補貼嗎用油的補貼嗎我們都是在用油的補貼沒有錯"},{"start":10858.61,"end":10883.441,"text":"所以沒有其他受到影響的產業的一個評估跟未來可能需要補貼的政策嗎像委員報告我們初步因為戰爭發生到會走到什麼樣的階段我們不曉得所以我們目前的估算是針對公共運輸的部分我們先做公共運輸的規劃那其他的部分我們會預先來看如果有可能會發生比較長期的影響我們會來預作規劃我就先提一個例子來下一頁"},{"start":10884.682,"end":10894.316,"text":"針對公共運輸 你剛剛講 沒錯 你們現在針對公共運輸來來估預算那所以呢 行政院已經說 宣布動長但是呢 來剛剛"},{"start":10897.594,"end":10922.451,"text":"部長有提到 我們現在因為國外旅遊 燃油的成本高所以國外旅遊的團價 票價 成本高 很貴所以這應該引導做國旅所以我們現在4月份 政府有開始補助2026國旅補助 最高領3200所以你又鼓勵大家來國旅 但是國旅會牽涉到一個什麼問題公共運輸 你有補助了 但是遊覽車勒"},{"start":10924.895,"end":10941.505,"text":"客車咧那他們同樣的油料支出就大成本也會提高那他成本提高團費就會提高那你的補助3200會不會變相的也是在提高團費你有沒有想到這樣子的一個循環的一個加成的作用"},{"start":10942.408,"end":10961.83,"text":"報告委員謝謝你的提醒這個我們會來注意跟思考就是說這個補助到底有沒有真正的落實到讓民眾提高他的意願那真正的讓他這個消費的成本降低這個我們會來思考那不過這個國旅的補助目前因為總預算還沒過所以我們很希望4月可以起跑目前看起來是沒有辦法"},{"start":10962.23,"end":10972.193,"text":"目前總預算還沒過啦 希望可以趕快過趕快起跑啦但是我另外一個希望提醒你的是什麼剛剛那個遊覽車的 油料的成本增加那未來有沒有可能為了平穩物價平穩這個團 國旅的團價而有所謂的補貼油料政策跟未來的預算編列來補助他們這個是剛剛部長好像在"},{"start":10988.317,"end":11011.632,"text":"回答其他委員的時候有提到類似的說法向委員報告目前我們先針對基本民行的這個公共運輸的部分這是第一波那如果真的是有比較長期的影響那第二波委員在建議的這個我們會納入考量來第二波我就會開始提醒你我們現在民眾的生活裡面只要跟油有關係的因為這一次的油料成本提高"},{"start":11012.552,"end":11038.885,"text":"跟著物價會可能跟著提高的民眾生活中的網購 就是物流國旅 外送 貨運 產業相關的貨運我剛剛講的遊覽車 計程車等等這個呢 各個工協會也因為成本考量一定會跟交通部來報所有的收費的調漲計畫那這個呢 基於穩物價安民心未來第二波是否也能納入這個補貼的考量跟"},{"start":11041.306,"end":11055.817,"text":"估預算然後呢拍判定案來做這個穩物價的一個措施我是提供給部長來做這樣子的提醒跟建議啦好不好這些我們都會納入討論是好不好我們謝謝美麗的何委員謝謝你祝你心想事成"},{"start":11071.534,"end":11075.436,"text":"好接下來我們邀請許智傑委員發言謝謝我們帥氣的召委我們請部長請陳部長還有民航局民航局何局長"},{"start":11098.467,"end":11114.93,"text":"委員好謝謝應該部長跟局長也要加帥氣跟美麗謝謝好 謝謝其實這一次的我想中東的狀況大家都很難估計也希望說我們"},{"start":11116.092,"end":11134.025,"text":"就是不管是油還是這些票價問題交通部能夠盡量協助其他的我想該進步還是要進步我想謝謝我們民航局事實上也一直都很辛苦在我們高雄在努力"},{"start":11135.206,"end":11159.794,"text":"不過就是說我們整體的案件還是要注意之前那個虎航掌鍋事件 這個部長應該知道吧是 知道 有看到新聞那這個案件呢 我們從兩個角度來看一個就是機場 那個航空公司他們當然會處理就是說將來列入黑名單的部分這個是必要的一個動作"},{"start":11160.902,"end":11189.108,"text":"但是我們在想說整個飛航安全是不是應該一併做考量所以關於黑名單的問題現在是只有各個航空公司自己的黑名單還是我們民航局會有一個整體的思考像委員報告目前看起來航空公司他們會做自己的考量包含危險的客人或者是配合度比較低的客人會做限制搭船的部分目前民航局是沒有做這方面的限制"},{"start":11189.605,"end":11201.902,"text":"我現在有個具體建議事實上我們銀行局跟交通部可以做一個思考就是說在銀行的徵信大家都知道信用不好的會有一個聯合徵信中心"},{"start":11203.803,"end":11229.447,"text":"那這個信用不好的人事實上你今天在機場發生一個這個尤其是飛機上發生這個斬鍋事件一來就是要保護我們的飛行人員以及服務人員的安全之外另外就是會影響到顧客的品質所以就是說這個只要發生一件有可能你在今天坐這艘飛機的顧客心情都不太好"},{"start":11230.999,"end":11248.766,"text":"所以類似這樣子一個惡意打人的事件我覺得這個是在飛機上是非常嚴重的事那是不是我們從公部門的角度不只是航空公司個別的管理就是在整個民航的管理方面是不是有個不一樣的思考"},{"start":11249.526,"end":11273.545,"text":"向委員報告目前我們的民用航空法裡面其實有相關的罰則如果真的發生相關的事件那民航警局他們都會依法來處理那該處罰都會處罰所以我是這樣建議但是委員在建議的就是說有沒有可能航空公司跟民航局的所屬的一些航空工廠站也好大家來做協調這個我們後續來做討論就是說我今天"},{"start":11278.138,"end":11295.574,"text":"銀行的信用不好的聯證中心他都會互相可以去查閱然後當然銀行你要不要貸款給這個信用不好的人銀行自己要負責但是我至少查得到說這個人曾經在其他的銀行信用不好"},{"start":11296.928,"end":11321.4,"text":"那我的黑名單如果有一個類似聯合處理中心的話就是說我今天不管在虎航不管在華航任何航空公司發生這一種事件除了你個別航空公司把它定為黑名單之外是不是有一個聯合中心可以讓我查得到那當然你航空公司要不要讓它屬於黑名單的部分要不要讓它搭乘的部分航空公司自己會決定嘛"},{"start":11322.165,"end":11342.766,"text":"那我們是不是多一個這樣子的機制可以讓航空公司多一個參考那避免就是這一種人會更多這個對他會有嚇阻作用啦那我想不管是機上的安全跟乘客的品質這個是整體可以做一個思考的是不是交通部跟民航局可以做一個這樣子的思考"},{"start":11343.194,"end":11361.729,"text":"是謝謝委員您在關心的這個方向很有建設性也很好那我所知道是華航公司現在整個集團他們其實是聯合通報的就是我請高董來說一下華航集團所有的航空公司大家其實是聯合在一起通報的"},{"start":11362.931,"end":11375.104,"text":"對於這種類似在飛機上面會造成我們困擾的我們叫做不再提供服務的旅客那這名單我們集團裡面我們是所以就是華航華信"},{"start":11377.646,"end":11392.288,"text":"這三家跟其他航空公司就沒臉嘛對不對那有沒有機會民航局就是我們就是以民航的角度不是以單一航空公司的角度啦是不是可以做一個這樣一個整體的思考"},{"start":11393.136,"end":11414.829,"text":"跟維園報告確實如果是從在機上服務避免這些旅客有影響那當然有一個黑名單的制度就是說看起來是一個可行方向不過因為我想這個黑名單的制度如果擴及到所有的航空公司都一樣的話那涉及的就是我們台灣也是海島其實到有些地方一定要靠航空運輸"},{"start":11415.669,"end":11443.795,"text":"所以我想這個問題其實可能要從幾個面向再去思考那容我們後面我們再找學者專家然後來進一步思考我的意思是這樣局長你可以思考一下我不是說他全部都列為共同的黑名單不是啦就是剛剛我講為什麼聯合徵信中心會說這個人就信用不好信用不好是我查得到但是呢他航空公司那個銀行要不要借錢給他銀行自己做決定嘛"},{"start":11445.281,"end":11471.471,"text":"那航空公司說他曾經在其他航空公司也曾經打人的曾經這種表現不好的我就做一個例子的嘛那你今天航空公司彼此可以查得到嘛那你要不要把他列為黑名單航空公司有時候會自己去斟酌嘛甚至他要剔除黑名單要什麼方式以後要怎麼承諾要怎麼樣表現這個是航空公司跟他個別的事情那也就是說黑名單"},{"start":11472.825,"end":11497.875,"text":"是航空公司自己跟個人的事但是我有一個聯合的處理中心就是說我會記錄曾經在飛機上尤其是打過人這個算是嚴重的事件我要把它記錄下來那我在雖然他在其他航空公司在虎航打過人但是我今天是長榮航空也可以知道他曾經這一個人就是在虎航打過人類似這樣子的選擇他們會自己最後去做決定"},{"start":11499.21,"end":11515.679,"text":"那這只是一個參考我相信這個參考應該對於對於要求對於要求在飛機上再發生這種重複事件的案例就可以少很多 它會怕啦不然它拍了 雖然不能坐飛機對它來說也損失很大謝謝委員您的這個建議我們會來做參考也會來做討論這個再麻煩斟酌一下那再來就是這個行動電源行動電源我們現在4月1號有新制"},{"start":11526.385,"end":11550.186,"text":"那就是說將來行動電源可以帶上機場的就帶上飛機的就兩個嘛那禁止充電嘛那這個其實我們現在現在是宣導階段還是處罰階段剛剛委員報告已經4月8號開始直施了然後基本上就是如果有違反規定的話就依照民用航空法來執行"},{"start":11552.636,"end":11577.742,"text":"這個其實看起來是小事卻是大事啦你看韓國釜山航空曾經因為一顆行動電池造成整個飛機燒起來所以這是看起來是很小的事但是實際這影響飛案也很大所以我是建議就是說現在人民可能現在都不見得普遍有這個觀念所以希望民防局可以再多宣導"},{"start":11578.493,"end":11603.427,"text":"好 謝謝委員我們在各航空公站還有航空公司包含觀光署這邊我們都有全部在實施前就有一個宣導期甚至將來有沒有可能像韓國這麼嚴格這個也都是考量的範圍是 這個我們會持續這個非常很重要最後一個我簡單再問一下就是說謝謝我們民航局就是說我高雄現在安檢的部分有三條線嘛"},{"start":11604.508,"end":11624.169,"text":"那現在民航局打算四條先這個先謝謝部長跟局長這部分讓我們高雄將來可以更快速但是還有一個越快速的像那個美國那個Clear Plus他們這些它是年費蠻好玩的年費一年大概六千台幣"},{"start":11626.016,"end":11641.217,"text":"速度就快很多他就是照臉你所有的證件之前就先審核通過然後呢你通過之後你就是走過去臉一照你就可以快速通關了那這個部分台灣現在還沒有做是不是有這個規劃可以儘快"},{"start":11645.558,"end":11667.217,"text":"我想跟委員報告確實如果有這樣的一個通關快速的作業快速的通道然後讓我們一些安檢作業不用人工的去做處理是比較快的那基本上這個部分我們松山機場這個部分已經有跟這個航空公司還有這個建制的服務商其實有做一個一個招標案"},{"start":11667.657,"end":11689.799,"text":"那目前也剛好大概建置好可是在測試期間那對於整個系統因為高雄也有它的特性還有包含它的空間所以基本上我們也會請高雄來研究然後也會參考松山機場的案例所以現在松山機場已經招標出去了對 它基本上是已經出去了可是它是真的我聽到的是桃園機場"},{"start":11691.823,"end":11708.61,"text":"我們桃園機場也在配合T3航廈 未來也會建置所以 高雄的部分也會在研議當中所以松山現在是標出去了桃園機場現在在研議不是 我們T3就會做了現在T3就會做了那大概什麼時候開始使用"},{"start":11709.541,"end":11726.836,"text":"我們就是配合T3的營運來一起使用所以還要多久我們明年來完工明年T3是明年完工然後會經過營運準備以後來進入營運期那是不是高雄一起思考"},{"start":11728.396,"end":11744.473,"text":"高雄我們也會在未來的新航廈的部分來做規劃設計要等到新航廈那很久短期間的就是我們剛剛講就是說松山機場有先做他有他的一個條件那高雄機場我們也會同步來我希望不要等到新航廈啦"},{"start":11746.388,"end":11762.422,"text":"先規劃了因為這個真的是夠嘛又快速又方便新航廈一定會納入啦但是現在短期之間我們來討論一下看怎麼讓他可以先加速啦好不好等到新航廈我等不及希望能加速好 謝謝好 非常感謝許智傑委員好 接下來我們邀請邱若驊委員發言"},{"start":11780.222,"end":11783.267,"text":"好 謝謝主席 主席請邀請交通部陳部長 我們請陳部長"},{"start":11790.885,"end":11816.878,"text":"委員好 部長好 部長就今天的專題和部長討論那這一次的中東歧視帶動國際油價的飆升那這不只是經濟的議題它也同時涉及到能源能源的供應還有運輸的穩定那我有看到國發會在4月13號的報告指出政府已經啟動專案的會議那交通部身為運輸的主管機關針對海空運的落道所增加的燃料成本還有航運時間有沒有具體的來"},{"start":11819.601,"end":11836.891,"text":"來建立緊急航權的調度機制向委員報告目前我們在海空運的部分都有掌握那海運的部分其實目前在進口的這個貨櫃的這個成本的成長的幅度並不高在出口的部分可能有比較高那這個部分其實是由業者他們去做吸收"},{"start":11837.611,"end":11863.494,"text":"那空運的部分我們會透過燃油附加費的部分來做這個國際航線的這個調度上面的協助那國內的部分我們目前是動漲的那油價的部分我們交通部有拜託這個中油公司幫我們把這個國內航空的這個油價從44塊條降到28塊那這個差額的部分目前是由中油先吸收但之後交通部會編列公務預算來"},{"start":11863.834,"end":11864.374,"text":"空中航線沒什麼問題"},{"start":11883.631,"end":11905.085,"text":"跟委員報告因為這個中油給我們的國際燃油跟國內線的燃油它是每個月的1號會公佈那基本上這個月的油價就是我們會照這個標準去處理那如果是在國際線的燃油附加費的部分因為它已經先公告了所以我們原本就有一個燃油附加"},{"start":11905.305,"end":11926.921,"text":"局長因為您提到這邊提到的是附加費那這邊我待會也和您討論那部長我看到這次的報告有說國內的公油是正常的然後沒有中斷也穩定那報告也有提到其他國家像是越南菲律賓已經開始限制加油了嘛那我國目前法定的存油量是標榜140天那在這樣封鎖的情況下那交通部有沒有針對這樣大眾運輸然後還有運輸的服務系統有一個優先配給的順序"},{"start":11932.024,"end":11955.878,"text":"跟委員報告因為中油給我們的訊息目前的油量都還是足夠啦那這個部分我們沒有做相對的配給的作為因為目前國家看起來的油量剛剛中油董事長也有報告大概到6月7月目前正在找7月的油那也找的差不多了那所以最近這幾個月其實這個壓力沒有那麼大不過委員在提醒的部分我們會先預作準備跟討論那是不是"},{"start":11956.358,"end":11979.919,"text":"董事長剛剛有提到是到7月嘛那現在的955線汽油是維持在33.9這個禮拜那這個是政府調降50%貨物稅然後才有這個數字沒有錯吧這是其中一個原因是其中一個原因那減增50%的貨物稅預計會導致國庫每個月短縮數10億那你交通部跟中油這邊經濟部這邊有沒有精算過如果封鎖超過三個月的話那這樣子我們的庫存可以撐多久"},{"start":11981.525,"end":11988.376,"text":"我想這個沒有問題 在量的部分 中央公司都已經有掌握可以從其他的來源 董事長也請您說明是在什麼樣的前提之下呢"},{"start":11989.311,"end":12014.743,"text":"原油的部分的進口可以除了中東以外還有其他的油源可以從其他地方來找這個替代的油源譬如說像非洲譬如說像美國像澳洲您提到有其他國家啦那其實在111年的時候那時候吳俄戰爭的時候那交通部這邊有提到說要找其他的替代能源那三年過去了交通部這邊目前有沒有其他替代能源"},{"start":12021.672,"end":12038.822,"text":"我想那個整個國際上的油價的一個漲跌確實是對航空也造成影響不過我們都有燃油附加費那至於替代能源的部分國際上現在可行的就是我們所謂的這個航空永續燃油那這個部分的話我們中油跟台塑去年有5900噸"},{"start":12041.724,"end":12069.903,"text":"那今年也會有8000噸那我想全球來講因為可以用的就是我們講的這個航空燃油跟這個永續燃油那局長您這邊是提到航空附加費嗎那現在目前航空的燃油它成本是在航空大約30%到40%這個數字沒有錯吧那現在我們的航空的附加費調整是依據民航局你們核定的機制是隨著新加坡航空的燃油價格去做連動的嗎基本上是根據中油公告的油價"},{"start":12070.883,"end":12094.67,"text":"我們之前看到國際油價在短時間內就暴漲了71%那附加費他調升會直接衝擊到出口然後還有出國的民眾那你們這邊有沒有一個公式調整的公式跟委員報告我們基本上是這樣短程線我們是用國際線就是用一頭油10塊錢美金如果漲10塊美金我們短程線就加2.5美元"},{"start":12096.01,"end":12115.742,"text":"那長程線是加6.5美元所以原本短程線是17.5那因為它4月1號公告的我們換算回來大概是200一桶是203塊所以就要調到45塊直接直接那現在國際形勢的關係嗎那你們有沒有設定一個上限或是有一個緩衝的機制呢"},{"start":12117.063,"end":12141.201,"text":"基本上因為現在的油價已經算是過去以來的最高價那我想未來的油價的趨勢我們也會跟中油保持密切聯繫來做觀察那部長那這邊這一次的報告都是提到就是動漲動漲的部分然後補貼那像針對我們國內的大徐營的運輸大客車計程車還有貨物業有沒有其他的政策性的補助"},{"start":12141.801,"end":12162.679,"text":"向委員報告 針對公共運輸是我們第一波公共運輸的部分我們優先來處理那其他的部分可能到第二波因為戰爭到底發生多久我們不曉得再來油價的影響到底多長的時間我們不曉得那我們第一波會先處理公共運輸就是基本民行的部分那這個部分我們會先做討論那第二波委員剛剛在提醒的這些我們也都會納入討論"},{"start":12164.222,"end":12176.019,"text":"因為我這邊有看到報告裡面都是在講價格然後還有運能這一方面除了票價的動漲吸收油價還有附加費那航空公司接下來有沒有可能面臨減班或是航線的調整"},{"start":12177.353,"end":12202.308,"text":"在國內航線的部分比較沒有這方面的影響因為我們的這個票價那個油價的部分我們有做協助那國際的部分目前看到也是有一些航班確實在做整併他們定位率比較不高的航班跟航線那確實有些航空公司選擇先取消這些航班但整體來說它的影響只有千分之三的航班目前夏季班表看起來只有影響到千分之三所以影響並不大"},{"start":12203.442,"end":12222.999,"text":"我這邊提到航線的問題是因為我也是看到吳俄戰爭那時候附加費它的增加它的級數是好幾個級數這樣子在增加那當時就已經有引發民眾的反彈那這一次的附加費它的計算方式它的漲跌跟連動是不是可以更加透明呢 局長"},{"start":12225.034,"end":12245.653,"text":"我想剛剛我剛講的齁其實就是17.5它大概成長了11個應該是差不多11個級距乘以2.5短程線所以它會變45那另外一個一樣6.5直接乘所以基本上它這個燃油附加費在客運來講因為它是國際線它就是反映那國內線是剛剛講的環長"},{"start":12247.555,"end":12265.265,"text":"所以這個相關的公告航空公司也是公告了以後在7天後生效4月1號公告4月7號生效所以基本上這個機制也是從過去以來應該是從已經很早期大概96年以來97年以來就運作了這樣的機制也經歷了烏俄戰爭的一個高油價"},{"start":12268.146,"end":12292.943,"text":"那當然這一次又比烏鵝戰爭更加的嚴重 超為嚴重可是我們還會持續觀察整個油價剛剛中油所說的這個量足那價到底會在哪裡我們會跟中油這邊再保持密切聯繫這邊最後再請教部長一個問題因為有其他國家他的通膨率已經衝到4.1了嘛那他們也有提出考慮要調降燃料稅 燃料負稅那我們這邊會跟進嗎"},{"start":12295.104,"end":12312.731,"text":"對朝這樣的方向去做研議嗎後續如果朝這個方向如果影響很長遠的話我們針對棄燃費的部分我們會來做討論OK好這邊再向部長了解謝謝主席謝謝我們非常感謝邱樂華委員接下來我們邀請蘇清泉委員發言謝謝主席我請陳部長請陳部長"},{"start":12330.111,"end":12337.656,"text":"我時間都要4加1而已,所以我問你三個問題第一個就是屏東縣因為27876平方公里,你去久了所以台北人都騎摩托車比較多,現在你騎摩托車路口"},{"start":12357.062,"end":12373.028,"text":"只有屏東跟鄉村兩個店在賣嘛,對不對?屏東一天最多五十個名額,鄉村十五個所以一禮拜才有兩百五十個,很不方便,經常在歡迎,年輕人在賣,都要找個個用,否則你不知道這個事情"},{"start":12380.57,"end":12400.737,"text":"報告委員這段時間確實針對這個考照的部分大家從上網的這個預約的狀況來看確實最近的提供的量確實不足那尤其屏東我們有特別去關注到這個問題就是說我們希望能夠未來第一我們提高預約的名額讓大家報名比較容易一點才不會像現在那麼強"},{"start":12401.537,"end":12407.481,"text":"第二,如果可以下鄉的話,像委員在講的,鄉村一層、屏東一層,屏東這麼遠,百多公里的長途,我們有機會可以做這個下鄉考照的部分,我們盡量來合作,屏東的鄉親可以更加方便。對啦,現在年輕人在預約,常常抱怨的是,比廟宅演唱會票更難。"},{"start":12427.864,"end":12441.43,"text":"一天五十個實在太誇張了所以短期之內我們會要求監理站他們把這個考照的名額提高百分之十轉播轉購都提高百分之十讓大家比較有利就剛才兩個點了你跟人家說萬一是什麼都給十萬的"},{"start":12445.532,"end":12462.002,"text":"沒有 我先提高10%啦後續我也希望可以讓更多人來參加所以我們會看那個需求的比例譬如說我們剛才前一陣子有人在抱怨說報考率其實低所以造成很多的空額之前的報考率只有75%那我們經過1月份檢討完之後現在報考率已經到97%但是有報名的100個有97個會來扣農會長要存3個過去是農會長25個那太多了啦"},{"start":12474.269,"end":12494.082,"text":"我們現在把報考率提高,總額也提高有你很用心的,你這樣抵達你自己說的出來委員有在關心,我們一定要注意好,要加強啦,讓他們比較方便的啦今天的問題是,你現在70歲到74歲你去大院會給我回答說你要研究研究說,因為你賓東關70歲到75歲有三萬八千"},{"start":12503.695,"end":12509.019,"text":"75歲到4萬多人你現在叫這3萬多人你現在是要做體檢還是要做其他的信箱測驗等等跟委員報告我們現在兩項我們跟日本的制度一模一樣日本也是這樣做70歲到74歲這段我們是做提檢第一提檢第二我們免費提供他們兩小時的課程"},{"start":12532.236,"end":12538.862,"text":"讓他了解新的溝通規則跟新的號誌做什麼藝術因為現在我們的號誌跟標線常常在蓋有些東西他看不到我們要補充一下讓他了解所以這兩項做到我們就可以讓他新的體驗體驗是在哪裡做在醫療院所做還是企業做"},{"start":12548.973,"end":12574.739,"text":"醫療院所或衛生所或是醫療院所 衛生所都可以我做了那些合計的去啊你說有再做一個記憶的說十方水個那是認知測驗在日本也是一樣認知測驗那是75歲才開始做你是比照哪一個國家啊我心中外科醫生我不知道你這到底會不會去認知測驗其實是在測驗公有失智沒有啦在日本也是75歲開始做我們台灣的醫學會我們都有跟他們討論所以你70到70歲有要做"},{"start":12579.441,"end":12589.088,"text":"不用做認知測驗,但是75歲就要做認知測驗啦因為那個失智的風險比較高,我們要先檢查他有失智狀況你有要下森嗎?有要下森嗎?還是一樣可以找屏東市?本來說一個屏東市,一個店,你三萬五要怎麼去?大家叫我去哪裡呢?"},{"start":12597.591,"end":12598.211,"text":"75歲是現行高齡關懷換遭的制度"},{"start":12618.556,"end":12640.266,"text":"那另外針對即將在5月底要實施的這個提前到70歲關懷的這個部分的話原則上就是只有這個體檢跟這個免費這個相關這個講習的部分然後這一塊我現在請各區鑑定所就是按照委員剛剛所提到的部分他所寫的這個人數有多少"},{"start":12640.666,"end":12652.556,"text":"然後在規劃的一個據點 未來的據點會包括就是說我們會有這一個外派啦包括這個就是一些這個就是說高齡者可能比較常聚集的這些相關的 柳州啦 香港啦 鄉村啦你也要有一個店給這裡的老人家不然你經常去鄉村 你不知道鄉村有多遠喔"},{"start":12661.244,"end":12671.321,"text":"據點我們盡量去配合啦讓鄉親們方便委員在關心的就是這個啦保鄉親大家方便這我怎麼做啦你說四月份要有Data嘛要有刮症"},{"start":12674.284,"end":12694.321,"text":"所以這裡再問一回 有在整個 有在做我再補充一點就是比較這個鄉下地區的部分的話 一定會跟相公所做結合這些老人比較 這是高齡 長輩比較常聚會的場所我們就會透過陸老師 然後來做處理主席 我36歲了 我問最後一個問題"},{"start":12700.726,"end":12708.31,"text":"你剛才說我們的原油72%是從波斯灣來我們的液態瓦斯是32%從卡達來那現在那邊都歸零那你說這些液態天然氣現在掉一船來給富人10億喔"},{"start":12718.988,"end":12741.765,"text":"本來我就是不關 要給付全部 現在我們的經濟部門說他掉十倍損啊現在是都去退掉 我都很注意這個呢報告委員 你剛才講的那個油 未到未來 其實我不知道 那不是我報告的所以這個部門是不是 我們中油跟南元素有在這裡 要自己請教嗎我現在要問的就是說 你到底是去退掉"},{"start":12742.794,"end":12768.37,"text":"然後是多多少錢 再來就是說你現在說自己蓋燒你如果沒有蓋燒一L的957可能要40多塊 講這個事情跟委員報告跟那個油的部份就是電池船從哪邊調 跟回答委員就是主要現在是主要從美澳那邊來然後其他還有一些別的地區的那那個油價部分我是不是請中油的那個羅副總回答"},{"start":12769.079,"end":12790.956,"text":"說你蓋二百六十億,三百億,還有這個事情?向委員報告,這個新聞當然是有增加起來啦,但是政府也有在注意這個問題所以有一些專案融資貸款的這個部分,現在政府都在協調這個事情,其實台電跟電郵現在蓋二百六十億、三百億啦,這要怎麼來?剛才保地律說要用公務預算來報"},{"start":12796.881,"end":12800.444,"text":"蘇清泉委員像這個屏東鄉親考照問題看起來很嚴重今天已經連續兩位屏東的立委都針對這一點徐屋口委員跟蘇清泉委員都針對這一點有提出質詢"},{"start":12825.008,"end":12852.699,"text":"應該盡快來處理接下來我們來邀請鄭天才委員發言主席有請部長陳部長委員好部長好我也即將面臨那個考照"},{"start":12854.78,"end":12877.586,"text":"歡迎來考照這個對您絕對會有幫助早就有駕照了還要再考因為距離您上次考照大概已經五十年了快要五十年你才會面臨這個問題那五十年我們的軟體要更新一下但是我每天都還有開車是是是好人身體很健康沒問題今天的議題這個交通部的報告裡面提到這個"},{"start":12881.166,"end":12909.161,"text":"較戰前近一年平均油價公升26元漲幅約19%真的是戰爭很可怕尤其是戰爭的國家我們這麼遠距離伊朗、以色列、中東這麼遠還是受到很大的影響所以戰爭真的是要避免"},{"start":12910.866,"end":12932.205,"text":"這個空運的部分國內航線航空油價為新台幣40.2元每公升上漲了116%這個幅度真的是很大那我們看這個今年的2月1號每公升航空燃油排價國內限20.45"},{"start":12936.616,"end":12942.837,"text":"3月1號2月28號發生這個戰爭這個3月1號就戰爭了21.61現在這個4月份44.2真的是一個需要怎麼樣去協助我們的航空業者當然因為我們的"},{"start":12961.499,"end":12969.31,"text":"相關的這些剛中友有報告我們在經濟委員會也提了很多次了這個我們因為有"},{"start":12972.335,"end":12999.538,"text":"別人來在中東的我們有很早不是今年才開始之前就已經往美國澳洲去買油了所以這個有這樣的一個所以國內的油價都還好就是汽油汽車開的那個都還好那現在就是航空燃油這個所以這個部分我們怎麼樣去協助航空業者"},{"start":13001.702,"end":13029.253,"text":"協助航空業者也就是協助我們的人民大飛機就會不受到影響所以這個部分要請交通部還有民航局以及相關的機關那個機器的協助那我們再看這個偏遠的花蓮這個從台北到花蓮是立龍往返之間"},{"start":13030.134,"end":13043.106,"text":"那台中花蓮是華信高雄花蓮也是華信所以這樣的一個怎麼樣更要他們更需要這個協助啦讓這個航空業者能夠繼續"},{"start":13046.358,"end":13068.61,"text":"繼續飛行 讓民眾人民的票價也不要調高所以這個部分 今年有相關的這些附帶結議不是 一般的結議 臨時提案的結議所以要請交通部 民航局以及相關的機關"},{"start":13070.236,"end":13092.183,"text":"多多多的協助可以嗎我們來做整體的考量時間的關係最後雖然已經問過很多次了還是要謝謝交通部還有台鐵鐵道局提出台鐵宜花東及南迴鐵路"},{"start":13094.009,"end":13117.22,"text":"入段這個設施安全改善計畫今年3月16號行政已經核定了但是這個經費總是怎麼樣能夠循最快的速度因為3月才核定了嘛當然來不及編預算預算都有了"},{"start":13118.468,"end":13142.208,"text":"預算是編在哪裡今年本來就有編列一些預算那這個部分也在進行當中但是就是等這個總預算有過的話我們今年一些先期的工程就可以開始做你在總預算的部分是放在哪裡總預算的部分今年今年我是不是請台鐵跟鐵道局這邊來說好說明一下報委員這個案子是"},{"start":13143.612,"end":13162.74,"text":"今年三月行政院核定對那所以我們的預算在費用上面我們也會用我們的營業基金來先調度來指引那我們預算也照相關的預算法來編列所以也希望委員能夠支持這個案子因為委員一直都很重視能夠總預算通過我們計劃執行才會"},{"start":13166.141,"end":13194.281,"text":"所以你們會先用營業基金這個部分我們自己內部因為鑑於這個案子對安全性的提升很重要我們也會內部先把先期的作業先展開招標作業文件先進行營業基金的部分只可以做先期的作業啦有些行政作業是有辦法做的但實際的工程沒有辦法來大筆的沒辦法做啦等總預算進來之後就有辦法做第一個"},{"start":13195.868,"end":13222.363,"text":"你在書面這樣書面提供好了書面提供時間的關係第一個營業基金絕對可以用這是第一個這個我是老公也知道營業基金一定可以用第二個第二個就是說總預算一百一十五年度的總預算有沒有編列書面提供給我好我們謝謝鄭天才委員謝謝"},{"start":13226.837,"end":13227.778,"text":"主席 麻煩我們的部長請陳部長"},{"start":13253.626,"end":13265.353,"text":"委員好 部長午安 今天雖然是要講的事實上是中東 可是我比較關切的事實上也就是我過去曾經質詢過的一些課題先就要來跟你講一下是說"},{"start":13269.399,"end":13290.614,"text":"這陣子我們大家都也可以看到我們的交通部大安司公布的數據大家可以發現我們微型電動二輪車的數量十年內大概成長了五倍那其中我更關心的是耳哨的傷亡情形那17歲以下的111年佔整體的22%到現在114年已經佔整體的36%了"},{"start":13296.718,"end":13324.754,"text":"它事實上是一直在成長的所以就要問部長是說針對微型電動二輪車的事故防止到底交通部有沒有掌握跟委員報告這個部分確實是數據上看起來它的存在越來越多越來越多的這樣子的車輛大家在使用那第二事故率確實也因為使用的人多它事故率必然也會增加那這個部分其實交通部也都有注意到我們相關對策"},{"start":13327.623,"end":13351.183,"text":"委員在關心的是應該是未來是不是針對這一方面要不要再更加強管理或者是加強宣導的部分那這個部分其實我們有跟這個勞動部也好或者是教育部也好我們都有在討論說未來在這方面要怎麼這樣做教育上面的宣導那管制的部分在這段時間其實這幾年我們也有一定的這個作為我是不是請市長來向您回答我想時間關係我就不請市長"},{"start":13353.945,"end":13373.611,"text":"那因為我覺得更重要 當然你說教育宣導我相信也會去做 可是那個力道到底多強因為隨著這個上升 當然你剛剛講是說因為使用的人更多 可是我也要問就是針對改裝檢驗的規範 左邊是我打關鍵字你就看到一大堆的影片 隨便"},{"start":13376.359,"end":13405.212,"text":"點選就是教你如何怎麼改裝讓速度調掉了那右邊是記者去問公務局的同仁他說目前確實缺乏的就是召回臨檢的規範那我查到案規則過去有領牌的輕型機車過去就是50cc可是衛星電動二輪車過去也是期待是取代我們的50cc那可是我們卻對於這種類似的定位的一個微電車都沒有任何"},{"start":13405.911,"end":13429.602,"text":"的幾個機制就到底為什麼去獨露這個部分那有什麼考量嗎向委員報告微型二輪電動車的這個檢驗基準已經有防篡改速限的這個要求速限裝置的要求不能去改我們這個要求那未來為什麼一堆都是在叫你怎麼改那我覺得在路面上跑的應該也蠻多是改裝的"},{"start":13430.531,"end":13436.593,"text":"像委員報告我們會跟警方來聯合來做稽查那這個部分我們會加強來稽查跟查核"},{"start":13438.576,"end":13465.406,"text":"所以事實上國外就有一些經驗事實上是可以參考了ETSC的建議就是我們的機動車輛最好事實上是到16歲那過去我們自己在民間也倡議為什麼因為我們看到15到17是商網最高的時間點那如果事實上我們現在是14歲那就勢必是同意嘛就面對到那如果事實上是修改到16歲比照國外的話那個商網才不會事實上是坐任他"},{"start":13465.826,"end":13490.254,"text":"一直事實上是這麼高尤其他事實上是對青少年殺傷力事實上特別高甚至應該建立考訓跟我們的檢驗機制交通部是不是可以應該更積極地重新去檢視這個管理政策是什麼而不是等到問題發生了我們再來亡羊補牢我覺得有時候事實上是來不及的啦所以我希望交通部這個不知道是不是可以"},{"start":13493.372,"end":13496.435,"text":"給個時間點什麼時候可以去研議這個配套的措施"},{"start":13498.975,"end":13520.355,"text":"向委員報告目前微型電動二輪車的部分我們限制是在14歲可是我講15到17是傷亡最高的所以委員的建議是希望15到17當然第一個事實上是可以提高然後另外一個是我剛剛講配套的措施一定要做因為畢竟我們還有個17歲15到17最高可是你如果現在16可是我們還是有個17歲"},{"start":13522.917,"end":13549.863,"text":"我們青少年實在是經不起這樣的折損因為我們已經面對到少子化去年生10萬9那我們每個孩子都不能少的狀態底下委員的建議我們會納入討論您的建議是16歲希望界限在16歲還有我剛剛講的這些配套是不是可以考慮一個月內可不可以給我相關的這個報告那再來也就是個人行動器具這也是我過去質詢過的也同樣有這樣的問題我知道交通部現在很謹慎"},{"start":13551.903,"end":13578.303,"text":"希望也可以盡善盡美那也請了運營所來研究可是除了找地方跟廠商來開會可是去年7月31號開完會結束之後很多廠商都來問我說到底有沒有後續部長難道地方繼續不訂定這些行動器具的使用者每天都要面臨到違法然後被裁罰的風險嗎所以部長目前的整個交通部規劃是什麼從今年7月31號開完會之後就沒有下文了"},{"start":13582.446,"end":13600.111,"text":"報告委員我們在今年的3月13號已經有提供一個指引給各個地方政府了在今年的3月13號那你對地方的指引他如果不照做呢因為本來就是各地方要他們去訂規格那什麼叫做行動個人行動報告委員這是地方的權責"},{"start":13601.531,"end":13613.76,"text":"地方的權責那中央對於地方的權責到底有多少的強制性我們已經出了指引我們也會希望他趕快來做但是我們能不能很強制他去怎麼做這個要看各個地方他們自己的判斷"},{"start":13614.724,"end":13634.229,"text":"那你的報案考核是不是可以列入為一個考量的一個點所以對於新興運動器具的話我覺得希望你們能夠針對微型電動二輪車一個月內給我研究一個報告然後就是我覺得把個人行動器具的會議紀錄資料是不是可以提供這個沒有問題"},{"start":13635.089,"end":13650.857,"text":"那最後呢我想問一個因為今天報紙上整個大阪都在登的我從一進來就質詢到今天我都還在關心的也就是高齡駕駛這一塊我們記者會開了然後去年發生事情了我在開完記者會隔天"},{"start":13651.457,"end":13668.625,"text":"可是下一週就發生事情 在三峽時間很不幸那如果沒有動作快一點的話 那當然我就很擔心對 沒有錯 江部也很快就回應了就是要能夠70歲以下 可是我一直認為他不是年齡有沒有基於科學基礎的一個專業判斷一定要來讓他"},{"start":13672.166,"end":13694.861,"text":"能夠去做一些認知的測驗而不是說我定一個70歲然後只要體檢跟安全教育今天年齡真的不是一個問題最大的事實上是身體的能力到底如何而且我也希望能夠便民所以我不知道是不是可否這個部分我們有跟醫學會來做很專業的這個不是完全沒有依據這是絕對有依據的所以在日本也是70歲的患兆他們並沒有做認知測驗"},{"start":13697.625,"end":13723.073,"text":"我認為今天台灣事實上甚至失智都有往下的那個趨勢的時候我建議是不是可以找臨床心理師跟職能治療師來一起協助做認知判斷我們其實跟台灣的所有的這方面的醫學專家的認知功能的判斷的專家我們都有討論過所以他們討論完的結論是希望界限是放在75歲那是風險比較高但70到75中間這一段目前看起來風險沒有這麼高"},{"start":13724.273,"end":13737.463,"text":"不過我覺得地方政府有的已經開始做表示這事實上是有需要的我們不能再等下一件事發生的時候他們如果地方政府願意做我們相當歡迎對 那我覺得應該你這邊是不是應該也要想好 謝謝委員您剛剛在說的是要依據專業我們有專業的判斷跟討論好 請上去非常感謝接下來我們邀請楊瓊英委員"},{"start":13756.517,"end":13766.715,"text":"謝謝主席 陽泉發言 邀請交通部請陳部長委員好"},{"start":13768.394,"end":13785.987,"text":"我想大家都針對於這個戰爭的議題能源的樣態所以大家會緊張在整個成本的上升那但是對於民生的議題方面呢大家都非常的關心尤其要怎麼樣協助民眾在這一段時間能夠"},{"start":13787.808,"end":13814.544,"text":"安穩的度過那尤其是通膨的問題等政府密切需要好好的去應對那同時也關心整個的進程那同時我們要討論的今天本期要跟您討論的就是在這個票價的問題當然很多的同仁也關心不管是陸海空大家希望能夠平穩這個價格那我就特別針對於這個高鐵的部分"},{"start":13817.546,"end":13832.647,"text":"因為高鐵我們交通部每一年依據合約及最新的物價檢討高鐵的基本匯率在今年我們看到已經達到調漲的門檻匯率可由現在每人每公里的4.55億元"},{"start":13834.69,"end":13857.957,"text":"可以調升到4.728元那換句話說從台北到左營它的上限是可以調到1780元到目前為止呢我們是1490元換句話說增加是將近兩成290元那麼我們也看到交通部表示目前沒有調漲的這個時程"},{"start":13860.618,"end":13887.295,"text":"那但是在制度方面他已經有調漲的這個你們的合約裡面已經有調漲的這個條件所以民眾還是會緊張在這樣的情況之下呢我們看到高鐵現在的通勤月票是以30日為計算早期月票是以這個一個月20天那也因為有人反映說6日或許也有人上班"},{"start":13887.955,"end":13906.325,"text":"所以他會才從20天來調整現在的這個制度呢是30天的這個計量計價沒有去做分區實際使用的這個頻率那對於一般平日通勤為主的這個旅客呢他或許會產生這個負擔跟使用不對稱的這個樣態每一個人有每一個的這個面向"},{"start":13913.869,"end":13915.67,"text":"那所以在這種情況之下未來如果當然目前是不漲但是你的基本條件它是足夠的我們不知道戰爭的樣態是怎麼樣所以民眾他已經看到這個問題所以我們來做一個討論也就是在未來的票價"},{"start":13931.818,"end":13952.597,"text":"方面通勤組的負擔呢要怎麼樣去協助他們那使用者互惠這個是很公道的所以有人提出以新增分級回溯票的這個方式比如說10趟的20趟的40趟的這樣的一個基準因為10趟現在他是以82則20趟是以74則"},{"start":13955.66,"end":13969.752,"text":"那如果在40趟有增加這樣的一個取向的話呢那是不是40趟以六五折做平均值這樣可以融合20日跟30日也就換句話說10趟跟20趟的這個綜合點"},{"start":13973.735,"end":14003.095,"text":"是不是這樣子可以達到一個比較均衡點均衡點如果是以40趟的六五折的的樣態來計算是17550元那這樣子的樣態有人提出那我們也希望就是說交通部是主主機關單位合約是你們簽的那這樣的一個情況是不是有討論的一個方向讓使用者互惠達到一個更有效能的一個公平性"},{"start":14005.036,"end":14032.177,"text":"像委員報告感謝您在關心這個通勤組大家的這個需求那很多的客戶確實很多的旅客確實有很多的這個建議跟想法剛剛委員也講得很清楚這些我們都納入討論不過也跟委員報告我們目前的機制上面其實有好多種組合已經有好多種組合22天六七折22天六七折您剛剛在提的20天沒有但我們現在是22天六七折然後還有30天四九折的這個定期票"},{"start":14033.915,"end":14047.914,"text":"這個是一種然後還有回溯票的部分是60天8次92折還有30天的回溯票10次82折所以其實我們的那個彈性相當的大這是本席剛才所說的現在執行30日10趟是82折嘛"},{"start":14048.875,"end":14071.503,"text":"這個剛才本席已經告訴你很清楚也就是說如果以中間值來計算40趟20日40趟的這樣子的一個方式他是等於是六五折這個均衡所以本席提出選民民眾通勤族他們的建議我也希望納入在你們的這個討論的項目之內我們請高鐵公司來檢討"},{"start":14073.124,"end":14089.154,"text":"對對謝謝你一個目標也就是希望能夠在一個公平性上面可以達到均衡一點我想這樣子在消費者他尤其通信組我們一定要協助他嘛好不好你請他們來研討好謝謝那接下來本席要請教"},{"start":14090.655,"end":14116.966,"text":"因為我們一直關心也就是在關心的這個本席之前跟你討論過非法的旅館的這個部分那你們在4月12號也公布了2026年第一季旅館的稽查結果那全台非法的有達到這個1174家有查到的比去年又增加了42家那尤其台北市日租套房它增加了最多410家那換句話說你們有動作"},{"start":14119.847,"end":14148.249,"text":"或許是斷水斷電等這種強制手段但是我們用數字會講話你們採取目前的方案但是他的非法的是增加的他反而比去年同期還增加42家所以你現在是以茶季跟開法為主的機制那我們似乎看到他的嚇阻作用是不足的那所以要請教你要怎麼樣去強化呢因為消費者要求的是一個安全是一個合法"},{"start":14148.729,"end":14166.772,"text":"那政府有這個責任你們預計要怎麼去做呢報告委員其實目前法規上都有啦都有就是因為都有你這個重罰開罰但目前是增加的嘛數字是不漂亮的嘛所以消費者有碰到警訊了嘛那我們政府要怎麼做"},{"start":14167.433,"end":14191.859,"text":"我們還是會盡量去補助地方政府來做稽查因為稽查的方面是地方政府在做那官方署提供人力上面的補助跟協助讓地方政府有更多的資源去做更多的查緝你目前在走的方案就是以查緝跟開罰為基準你認為數字是反而增加你可以怎麼去做調整你把方案給本席好不好好謝謝非常感謝謝謝我們楊瓊英委員好"},{"start":14197.83,"end":14224.58,"text":"接下來我們邀請蔡春籌委員發言主席好有請交通部部長請陳部長還有農業部經濟部中油代表中油"},{"start":14227.254,"end":14241.003,"text":"經濟部 農業部委員好各位好"},{"start":14243.058,"end":14249.843,"text":"今天我們是在應應中東情勢的一個國際油價飆升對於我國的日海空運輸的一個衝擊評估在這裡要先跟部長提醒因為戰爭既然是啟動了但是我們沒有辦法預估戰爭什麼時候會結束"},{"start":14264.138,"end":14273.188,"text":"因此我們一定要做危機處理一定要到位危機處理一定要做到位我是來自於雲林雲林它是農業大縣目前會面臨很多的一個問題所以要請問交通部還有經濟部以及農業部"},{"start":14282.558,"end":14287.624,"text":"是否已經針對這個油價上升對於農產品的一個集貨、冷鏈還有批發以及末端的一個配送成本做一個區域比還有品項比的一個衝擊有沒有做這樣的一個評估"},{"start":14302.03,"end":14328.652,"text":"跟委員報告農業部說明那針對這一波的油價的一個大幅的調升的部分部裡面現在規劃針對我們農漁民特別是這個油電的部分不管是我們農機用油或是漁業的動力用油我們都有在關注也都設定的這樣的一個基準點這個基準點只要一到我們就啟動產業的支持措施那這裡面特別包括"},{"start":14329.472,"end":14351.925,"text":"像我們的肥料我們也都維持這個動長那我們這一個生產量庫存也都可以確保到年底沒有問題那資材的部分我們也都有在留意以上那我們希望你們這些措施真正能夠到年底還可以應付"},{"start":14353.155,"end":14368.854,"text":"跟委員報告沒問題特別是肥料跟資材這一個部分都沒有問題那在運輸的部分是屬於在運輸的部分因為這個物流的部分也是目前台灣算是很重要的一環嘛"},{"start":14369.655,"end":14392.74,"text":"那在這個油價的一個上漲啊那我們是不是就一定是也一樣同步都能夠把握到年底都不上漲跟委員報告我農業部負責是生產端的那現在我在問說運輸的部份油價的部份是交通部的一個權責"},{"start":14394.62,"end":14419.045,"text":"向委員報告運輸的部分我們對於整體的公共運輸的部分行政院已經有一個規定跟政策出來了我們希望公共運輸的部分不要去影響到民眾那針對貨運的部分目前貨運業者他們有提出申請那不過他目前的整體的貨運的那個價格啦還在我們本來之前核准的價格以下所以他自己去做調整就行所以我們交通部這邊的整體的貨運的這個價格我們並沒有要做調整"},{"start":14422.846,"end":14426.269,"text":"希望能夠穩定不要讓人民有感覺到因為這個戰爭這個衝動的影響讓民生感覺到就是很辛苦再來就是說我還是要請問交通部部長因為我還"},{"start":14441.519,"end":14462.746,"text":"因為來自地方我還是很關心 我們地方的客運還有就是偏鄉的街坊 幸福巴士還有尤其是學生的通勤 尤其我們是引領偏鄉我們來的學生大部分都是通勤的 都是要坐車來的那是不是也能夠保證我們的學生或者是我們這些巴士的這些油價這個票件都不會上漲"},{"start":14466.252,"end":14491.138,"text":"像委員報告我們是公路客運的部分我們已經有方案那也會來進行協助所以公路客運的部分不會受到影響那基本上我們國內的公共運輸我們也都希望說不要去受到影響那這個部分我們都有方案跟計畫那偏鄉的幸福巴士是完全沒有影響這個是我們交通部本來的編列的預算在支應所以偏鄉的幸福巴士完全沒影響"},{"start":14491.738,"end":14520.382,"text":"那萬一那如果是針對於學生的課運的這個交通的這個部分呢學生的部分呢因為學生有很多偏鄉的學生他是坐遊覽車來的應該是學校這邊會來做協助啦這個部分不是我們交通部但是我相信學校應該會來做協助這個就是有一點跨部嘛大家跨部來合作來關心嘛那再來就是"},{"start":14522.193,"end":14523.094,"text":"最後因為要提醒交通部就是因為我們國內民眾因為出國的機票變貴了轉向國旅因為台灣的國旅住宿太貴而且交通接駁不便所以我們的旅遊品質"},{"start":14547.717,"end":14562.446,"text":"不趁現在改善的話呢我們轉單效應只能短暫的是一個不得已的一個選擇所以呢對於這個觀光的部分啊那個觀光署有沒有什麼對於因為這樣的一個油價的一個提升然後影響了國外國內的一個觀光的影響有沒有什麼策略"},{"start":14572.596,"end":14598.49,"text":"我請副署長回答謝謝報告委員那我們這個部分我們其實對於住宿的部分其實八成以下八成以下都是在平均房價之下所以我們想要推動平日國旅這個部分讓民眾能夠享受平日國旅不管CP值或VP值都會比較高然後另外我們也會透過台灣觀光100亮點跟縣市政府合作來捲動國旅的一個市場"},{"start":14599.35,"end":14613.825,"text":"我們希望透過這一次的危機能夠變成轉機但是我還是要提醒如果台灣的一個房價整個國際來比台灣的房價還是太貴太貴了所以因此也影響到那個旅遊的意願"},{"start":14614.986,"end":14634.897,"text":"好 那我們希望我們往這個方向來努力最後因為很難得我要請教一下那個交通部長很難得能夠碰到交通部長那因為我來自於雲林縣北港那因為我們北港要到交通要到高速公路必須經過78線快速道路這中間要30分鐘但是我們北港朝天宮我們的相剋一年"},{"start":14643.121,"end":14651.729,"text":"在去年有一千一萬多人次來到我們北港但是呢我們北港竟然有一個我們一直希望有一個78甲這樣的一個快速道路我們申請了30年到現在都沒有下落那麼我們希望因為我們不要讓一千多萬人次來到北港這些鄉客能夠不要那個鄉客都舟車勞頓所以在這一個78甲這一個"},{"start":14668.946,"end":14670.713,"text":"建設呢 我請交通部部長你能夠給我一個承諾好不好"},{"start":14674.498,"end":14699.912,"text":"報告委員這個部分我是第一次聽到啦但是我們來做這方面的研議既然地方有這個需求我們就來討論一下看是不是真的有這個需求存在好的討論完之後能夠書面給我讓我可以跟我們的鄉親做一個交代因為我們這條路已經等了30年了我們已經等不下去了因為我們的鄉客的人數一年比一年成長那我們期待交通部好 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":14704.588,"end":14720.022,"text":"我們非常感謝蔡春草委員 謝謝你接下來接下來是王美惠 王美惠 王美惠委員黃婕 黃婕 黃婕委員"},{"start":14726.089,"end":14755.062,"text":"沒有到我們李博義李博義李博義委員不在我們鄭正前鄭正前鄭正前委員不在蔡易瑜蔡易瑜蔡易瑜委員不在林倩琦林倩琦林倩琦委員不在鍾嘉斌鍾嘉斌鍾嘉斌委員不在邱志偉邱志偉邱志偉委員也不在葉元之葉元之葉元之委員不在好接下來我們邀請林楚英委員發言"},{"start":14764.822,"end":14766.785,"text":"謝謝主席 有請交通部部長請陳部長"},{"start":14773.319,"end":14801.455,"text":"委員好部長好 耽誤大家用餐的時間其實這個題目我在國防外交委員會曾經質詢過退府會那就是在新興跟大南客運當中出現了中國的海思晶片而且它是用一個塗抹的方式我想部長非常清楚就是在我們的這個所謂公共客運被列為基礎建設那麼絕對是不可以有中國的系統在裡面而當時我發現的是說這個所謂的吹哨者"},{"start":14802.435,"end":14821.96,"text":"他所給我的資料是他企圖用塗銷的方式以至於這個中國的海思晶片就被植入在星星跟大南科運當中那麼現在我們都知道這個完全是不符合當初所簽下的切結書那麼這一家"},{"start":14823.36,"end":14850.089,"text":"新興承包新興跟燙男客運的這個創意他使用的是誠意的系統當時竊傑書清清明明白白的說這個絕對就是不會有中國製的晶片那麼我不知道這個訊息現在交通部是不是知道了因為我們電動大客車其實有兩個審查的主管機關交通部負責的是車輛安全及法規的部分"},{"start":14850.709,"end":14871.069,"text":"然後當然我知道經濟部的產發署會負責國有化跟技術但是在這樣的一個環節當中到底出現了什麼樣的問題呢再來是當我踢爆這個事情之後我要強調的是我相信這一家創意它使用誠意的系統絕對應該不會只做新興跟大難"},{"start":14875.114,"end":14880.719,"text":"他們的生意吧那麼言下之意是其他的客運當中有沒有這個"},{"start":14882.273,"end":14891.98,"text":"企圖利用塗抹消去的方式讓這個海思晶片能夠植入其中他的問題不只是我所講的這個間諜車啊然後因為他是環境系統他走在路上開他會把所有我們的車警放棄重點是他直接就違反了當初切結書的規定嘛就是不可以有中國的晶片跟系統那麼現在我把這個事情攤開來我想要了解的是"},{"start":14910.814,"end":14932.446,"text":"交通部在廠商如果提交不實資料的時候他把補助領走了現在該怎麼辦首先第一個因為時間有限我想問的是交通部是不是可以去徹查這個所謂創意跟他使用的誠意的系統除了新興大南客運新興跟大南客運之外"},{"start":14933.607,"end":14945.201,"text":"還有沒有別的客運業者也是同樣的方式離貓換太子啊偷天換日那再來就是我們都知道大客車是有所謂的補助那麼這會不會涉及到補助上面在這個所謂其他違法違規的部分來部長"},{"start":14952.95,"end":14980.576,"text":"感謝委員的關心您所關心的這個議題因為前幾天媒體也都有報導所以我們交通部也都有關注到這個議題那幾個部分一個部分是說針對他的晶片是否是國產是否是中國製的部分我們的查核的部分我們已經喊請經濟部因為不要兩個部都去調查了請經濟部去幫我們調查這個部分那目前他們也正在做那您剛剛有提到就是說針對如果有違規的廠商沒有照我們當時的規範跟規定下去做的話我們當然"},{"start":14982.097,"end":14996.69,"text":"當時給的補助必須要追回來那後續就不會有補助那不過這個部分還需要經過查核我們還會經過查核那我剛剛講的說除了經濟部的查核之外我們自己也請我們的車案中心去查明他的車的規格是不是有問題是"},{"start":14997.751,"end":15020.021,"text":"那這個部分我們也會來做這方面的查核而且針對未來啦您在關心的包含說剛剛也有其他委員關心到我們未來機場的這個車子會不會受到影響目前我們的契約裡面有明定那現在有這個案子出來未來在他要交車或者要落實我們的這個契約的時候我們會認真查核內容有沒有違規如果有違規我們一定不接受"},{"start":15020.441,"end":15031.324,"text":"好 那麼我們現在知道就是交通部113年所核定的補助一共是購置創意是299輛那已經撥了6億5273萬多元那114年呢還有197輛但還沒有撥款這個部分我就希望你們能夠謹慎我不知道這個數字對不對因為這個是我發文之後你們所提供的但是不論如何這個經費喔"},{"start":15049.389,"end":15074.85,"text":"出來是很驚人的喔這個也是人民的這個所謂納稅錢再來是他用這種所謂偷天換日 狸貓換太子的方式如果今天我沒有踢爆他可是拿了我們的補助然後呢又讓中國晶片暢行無阻這中間是不是有人謀不章或不法的部分我也希望交通部跟經濟部可以合作然後把這樣的事情把它查清楚好嗎"},{"start":15075.43,"end":15091.232,"text":"好 我們一定會查清楚 這件事情我們不能接受如果沒有符合我們的規定 我們一定會追回來好 謝謝好 謝謝委員好 非常感謝林楚瑩委員好 接下來游皓游皓 游皓委員不在"},{"start":15097.881,"end":15121.102,"text":"我們今天登記的諮詢委員都已發言完畢我們做以下決定第一報告及詢答完畢另外委員洪玉祥 李柏鈺 尤浩委員所提書面質詢列入記錄並刊登公報令委員於諮詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答覆的部分"},{"start":15122.414,"end":15128.35,"text":"請交通部及相關機關尽速與書面答覆我們本日今天的會議結束散會"}]}},{"id":"168588","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168588","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ec77822e2e6eae39bb8fce4b1ff028cba64134b0f452f2ee6b800412f8d870b6b1af878bc708cb15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"12:41:06 - 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耽誤大家用餐的時間其實這個題目我在國防外交委員會曾經質詢過退府會那就是在新興跟大南客運當中出現了中國的海思晶片而且它是用一個塗抹的方式我想部長非常清楚就是在我們的這個所謂公共客運被列為基礎建設那麼絕對是不可以有中國的系統在裡面而當時我發現的是說這個所謂的吹哨者"},{"start":42.469,"end":61.974,"text":"他所給我的資料是他企圖用塗銷的方式以至於這個中國的海思晶片就被植入在星星跟大南科運當中那麼現在我們都知道這個完全是不符合當初所簽下的切結書那麼這一家"},{"start":63.394,"end":79.569,"text":"新興承包新興跟燙男客運的這個創意他使用的是誠意的系統當時切傑叔清清明明白白的說這個絕對就是不會有中國製的晶片那麼我不知道這個訊息現在"},{"start":81.491,"end":93.08,"text":"交通部是不是知道了因為我們電動大客車其實有兩個審查的主管機關交通部負責的是車輛安全經法規的部分然後當然我知道經濟部的產發署會負責國有化跟技術"},{"start":97.023,"end":120.729,"text":"但是在這樣的一個環節當中到底出現了什麼樣的問題呢再來是當我踢爆這個事情之後我要強調的是我相信這一家創意他使用誠意的系統絕對應該不會只做星星跟大男他們的生意吧那麼言下之意是其他的客運當中有沒有這個"},{"start":122.31,"end":129.297,"text":"企圖利用塗抹消去的方式讓這個海思晶片能夠植入其中他的問題不只是我所講的這個間諜車啊然後因為他是環景系統他走在路上開他會把所有我們的車景放棄重點是他直接就違反了當初切結書的規定嘛"},{"start":143.59,"end":156.79,"text":"就是不可以有中國的晶片跟系統那麼現在我把這個事情攤開來我想要了解的是交通部在廠商如果提交不實資料的時候他把補助領走了現在該怎麼辦"},{"start":159.534,"end":172.627,"text":"首先第一個因為時間有限我想問的是交通部是不是可以去徹查這個所謂創意跟他使用的誠意的系統除了新興大南客運新興跟大南客運之外還有沒有"},{"start":174.269,"end":191.323,"text":"別的客運業者也是同樣的方式離貓換太子啊偷天換日那再來就是我們都知道大客車是有所謂的補助那麼這會不會涉及到補助上面在這個所謂其他違法違規的部分來 部長"},{"start":192.984,"end":220.616,"text":"感謝委員的關心您所關心的這個議題因為前幾天媒體也都有報導所以我們交通部也都有關注到這個議題那幾個部分 一個部分是說針對它的晶片是否是國產是否是中國製的部分我們的查核的部分我們已經喊請經濟部因為不要兩個部都去調查了請經濟部去幫我們調查這個部分那目前他們也正在做那您剛剛有提到就是說針對如果有違規的廠商沒有照我們當時的規範跟規定下去做的話我們當然"},{"start":222.136,"end":236.604,"text":"當時給的補助必須要追回來那後續就不會有補助那不過這個部分還需要經過查核我們還會經過查核那我剛剛講的說除了經濟部的查核之外我們自己也請我們的車案中心去查明他的車的規格是不是有問題"},{"start":237.785,"end":260.055,"text":"那這個部分我們也會來做這方面的查核而且針對未來啦您在關心的包含說剛剛也有其他委員關心到我們未來機場的這個車子會不會受到影響目前我們的契約裡面有明定那現在有這個案子出來未來在他要交車或者要落實我們的這個契約的時候我們會認真查核內容有沒有違規如果有違規我們一定不接受"},{"start":260.455,"end":267.583,"text":"好那我們現在知道就是交通部113年所核定的補助一共是購置創意是299輛那已經撥了6億5273萬多元那114年呢還有197輛但還沒有撥款這個部分我就希望你們能夠謹慎"},{"start":281.078,"end":285.182,"text":"我不知道這個數字對不對因為這個是我發文之後你們所提供的但是不論如何這個經費喔出來是很驚人的喔這個也是人民的這個所謂納稅錢再來是他用這種所謂偷天換日 狸貓換太子的方式如果今天我沒有踢爆"},{"start":301.516,"end":320.553,"text":"他可是拿了我們的補助然後又讓中國晶片暢行無阻這中間是不是有人謀不章或不法的部分我也希望交通部跟經濟部可以合作然後把這樣的事情把它查清楚好嗎好 我們一定會查清楚這件事情我們不能接受如果沒有符合我們的規定我們一定會追回來好 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估在這裡要先跟部長提醒因為戰爭既然是啟動了但是我們沒有辦法預估戰爭什麼時候會結束"},{"start":58.148,"end":63.254,"text":"因此我們一定要做危機處理一定要到位危機處理一定要做到位我是來自於雲林雲林它是農業大縣目前會面臨很多的一個問題所以要請問交通部還有經濟部以及農業部"},{"start":76.568,"end":81.733,"text":"是否已經針對這個油價上升對於農產品的一個集貨、冷鏈還有批發以及末端的一個配送成本做一個區域比還有品項比的一個衝擊有沒有做這樣的一個評估"},{"start":96.04,"end":122.643,"text":"跟委員報告農業部說明那針對這一波的油價的一個大幅的調升的部分部裡面現在規劃針對我們農漁民特別是這個油電的部分不管是我們農機用油或是漁業的動力用油我們都有在關注也都設定的這樣的一個基準點這個基準點只要一到我們就啟動產業的支持措施那這裡面特別包括"},{"start":123.483,"end":145.938,"text":"像我們的肥料我們也都維持這個動長那我們這一個生產量庫存也都可以確保到年底沒有問題那資材的部分我們也都有在留意以上那我們希望你們這些措施真正能夠到年底還可以應付"},{"start":147.165,"end":175.656,"text":"跟委員報告沒問題特別是肥料跟資材這一個部分都沒有問題那在運輸的部分是屬於在運輸的部分因為這個物流的部分也是目前台灣算是很重要的一環嘛那在這個油價的一個上漲那我們是不是就一定是也一樣同步都能夠把握到年底都不上漲"},{"start":176.736,"end":197.668,"text":"跟委員報告我農業部負責是生產端的這些那現在我在問說運輸的部分油價的部分是交通部的一個權責向委員報告運輸的部分我們對於整體的公共運輸的部分行政院已經有一個規定跟政策出來了我們希望公共運輸的部分不要去影響到民眾"},{"start":198.668,"end":214.453,"text":"那針對貨運的部分目前貨運業者他們有提出申請那不過他目前的整體的貨運的那個價格啦還在我們本來之前核准的價格以下所以他自己去做調整就行所以我們交通部這邊的整體的貨運的這個價格我們並沒有要做調整"},{"start":216.854,"end":218.216,"text":"希望能夠穩定不要讓人民有感覺到因為這個戰爭這個衝動的影響讓民生感覺到就是很辛苦再來就是說我還是要請問交通部部長因為"},{"start":235.532,"end":256.791,"text":"因為來自地方我還是很關心 我們地方的客運還有就是偏鄉的街坊 幸福巴士還有尤其是學生的通勤 尤其我們是引領偏鄉我們來的學生大部分都是通勤的 都是要坐車來的那是不是也能夠保證我們的學生或者是我們這些巴士的這些油價這個票件都不會上漲"},{"start":260.262,"end":285.149,"text":"像委員報告我們是公路客運的部分我們已經有方案那也會來進行協助所以公路客運的部分不會受到影響那基本上我們國內的公共運輸我們也都希望說不要去受到影響那這個部分我們都有方案跟計畫那偏鄉的幸福巴士是完全沒有影響這個是我們交通部本來的編列的預算在支應所以偏鄉的幸福巴士完全沒影響"},{"start":285.728,"end":314.389,"text":"那萬一那如果是針對於學生的客運的這個交通的這個部分呢學生的部分呢因為學生有很多偏鄉的學生他是坐遊覽車來的應該是學校這邊會來做協助啦這個部分不是我們交通部但是我相信學校應該會來做協助這個就是有一點跨部嘛大家跨部來合作來關心嘛那再來就是"},{"start":316.203,"end":317.103,"text":"最後因為要提醒交通部就是因為我們國內民眾因為出國的機票變貴了轉向國旅因為台灣的國旅住宿太貴而且交通接駁不便所以我們的旅遊品質如果"},{"start":341.733,"end":356.54,"text":"不趁現在改善的話呢我們轉單效應只能短暫的是一個不得已的一個選擇所以呢對於這個觀光的部分啊那個觀光署有沒有什麼對於因為這樣的一個油價的一個提升然後影響了國外國內的一個觀光的影響有沒有什麼策略"},{"start":366.607,"end":390.993,"text":"我請副署長回答謝謝報告委員那我們這個部分我們其實對於住宿的部分其實八成以下八成以下都是在平均房價之下所以我們想要推動平日國旅這個部分讓民眾能夠享受平日國旅不管CP值或VP值都會比較高然後另外我們也會透過台灣觀光100亮點跟縣市政府合作來捲動國旅的一個市場"},{"start":393.374,"end":407.82,"text":"我們希望透過這一次的危機能夠變成轉機 是但是我還是要提醒如果台灣的一個房價整個國際來比台灣的房價還是太貴太貴了所以因此也影響到那個旅遊的意願"},{"start":409.341,"end":427.067,"text":"那我們希望我們往這個方向來努力最後因為很難得我要請教一下那個交通部長很難得能夠碰到交通部長那因為我來自於雲林縣北港那因為我們北港要到交通要到高速公路必須經過78線快速道路"},{"start":430.868,"end":433.789,"text":"這中間要30分鐘但是我們北港朝天宮我們的鄉客一年在去年有1100多人次來到我們北港但是我們北港竟然有一個我們一直希望有一個78甲這樣的一個快速道路我們申請了30年到現在都沒有下落那麼我們希望因為我們不要讓1000多萬人次來到北港這些鄉客能夠不要那個鄉客都舟車勞頓"},{"start":459.474,"end":460.677,"text":"所以在這個78甲這個建設呢我請交通部部長你能夠給我一個承諾好不好"},{"start":468.511,"end":493.924,"text":"報告委員 這個部分我是第一次聽到但是我們來做這方面的研議既然地方有這個需求 我們就來討論一下看是不是真的有這個需求存在好的 那討論完之後能夠書面給我讓我可以跟我們的鄉親做一個交代因為我們這條路已經等了30年了我們已經等不下去了因為我們的鄉客的人數一年比一年成長那我們期待交通部好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168586","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168586","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ec77822e2e6eae3f265430c3566c6adba64134b0f452f2ee6b800412f8d870b5656869f75d93f9c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"12:24:16 - 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請楊全發言 邀請交通部請陳部長委員好"},{"start":18.411,"end":36.021,"text":"我想大家都針對於這個戰爭的議題能源的樣態所以大家會緊張在整個成本的上升那但是對於民生的議題方面呢大家都非常的關心尤其要怎麼樣協助民眾在這一段時間能夠"},{"start":37.842,"end":64.559,"text":"安穩的度過那尤其是通盆的問題等政府密切需要好好的去應對那同時也關心整個的進程那同時我們要討論的今天本期要跟您討論的就是在這個票價的問題當然很多的同仁也關心不管是陸海空大家希望能夠平穩這個價格那我就特別針對於這個高鐵的部分"},{"start":67.581,"end":82.666,"text":"因為高鐵我們交通部每一年依據合約及最新的物價檢討高鐵的基本匯率在今年我們看到已經達到調漲的門檻匯率可由現在每人每公里的4.55億元"},{"start":84.727,"end":108.012,"text":"可以調升到4.728元那換句話說從台北到左營它的上限是可以調到1780元到目前為止我們是1490元換句話說增加是將近兩成290元那麼我們也看到交通部表示目前沒有調漲的這個時程"},{"start":110.632,"end":137.33,"text":"那但是在制度方面他已經有調漲的這個你們的合約裡面已經有調漲的這個條件所以民眾還是會緊張在這樣的情況之下呢我們看到高鐵現在的通勤月票是以30日為計算早期月票是以這個一個月20天那也因為有人反映說6日或許也有人上班"},{"start":137.97,"end":156.359,"text":"所以他會才從20天來調整現在的這個制度呢是30天的這個計量計價沒有去做分區實際使用的這個頻率那對於一般平日通勤為主的這個旅客呢他或許會產生這個負擔跟使用不對稱的這個樣態每一個人有每一個的這個面向"},{"start":163.903,"end":173.308,"text":"那所以在這種情況之下未來如果當然目前是不漲但是你的基本條件它是足夠的我們不知道戰爭的樣態是怎麼樣所以民眾他已經看到這個問題所以我們來做一個討論也就是在未來的票價"},{"start":181.852,"end":197.022,"text":"方面通勤組的負擔呢要怎麼樣去協助他們那使用者互惠這個是很公道的所以有人提出以新增分級回溯票的這個方式比如說10趟的20趟的40趟的"},{"start":200.084,"end":219.771,"text":"這樣的一個基準因為10趟現在它是以82折20趟是以74折那如果在40趟有增加這樣的一個取向的話呢那是不是40趟以65折做平均值這樣可以融合20日跟30日也就換句話說10趟跟20趟的這個綜合點"},{"start":223.752,"end":253.112,"text":"是不是這樣子可以達到一個比較均衡點均衡點如果是以40.65的樣態來計算是17,550元那這樣子的樣態有人提出那我們也希望就是說交通部是主主機關單位合約是你們簽的那這樣的一個情況是不是有討論的一個方向讓使用者互惠達到一個更有效能的一個公平性"},{"start":255.073,"end":282.203,"text":"像委員報告感謝您在關心這個通勤組大家的這個需求那很多的客戶確實很多的旅客確實有很多的這個建議跟想法剛剛委員也講得很清楚這些我們都納入討論不過也跟委員報告我們目前的機制上面其實有好多種組合已經有好多種組合22天六七折22天六七折您剛剛在提的20天沒有但我們現在是22天六七折然後還有30天四九折的這個定期票"},{"start":283.949,"end":297.948,"text":"這個是一種然後還有回溯票的部分是60天8次92折還有30天的回溯票10次82折所以其實我們的那個彈性相當的大所以這是本席剛才所說的現在執行30日10趟是82折嘛"},{"start":298.909,"end":321.541,"text":"這個剛才本席已經告訴你很清楚也就是說如果以中間值來計算40趟20日40趟的這樣子的一個方式它是等於是六五折這個均衡所以本席提出選民民眾通勤族他們的建議我也希望納入在你們的這個討論的項目之內我們請高鐵公司來檢討"},{"start":323.141,"end":339.191,"text":"對對謝謝你一個目標也就是希望能夠在一個公平性上面可以達到均衡一點我想這樣子在消費者他尤其通信組我們一定要協助他嘛好不好你請他們來研討好謝謝那接下來本席要請教"},{"start":340.692,"end":366.053,"text":"因為我們一直關心也就是在關心的這個本席之前跟你討論過非法的旅館的這個部分那你們在4月12號也公布了2026年第一季旅館的稽查結果那全台非法的有達到這個1174家有查到的比去年又增加了42家那尤其台北市日租套房它增加了最多410家"},{"start":367.834,"end":394.191,"text":"那換句話說你們有動作或許是斷水斷電等這種強制手段但是我們用數字會講話你們採取目前的方案但是他的非法的是增加的他反而比去年同期還增加42家所以你現在是以茶季跟開法為主的機制那我們似乎看到他的嚇阻作用是不足的那所以要請教你要怎麼樣去強化呢"},{"start":394.711,"end":416.787,"text":"因為消費者要求的是一個安全是一個合法那政府有這個責任你們預計要怎麼去做呢是報告委員其實目前法規上都有啦那我們也都有就是因為都有你這個重罰開罰但目前是增加的嘛數字是不漂亮的嘛所以消費者有碰到警訊了嘛那我們政府要怎麼做"},{"start":417.467,"end":439.762,"text":"我們還是會盡量去補助地方政府來做稽查因為稽查的方面是地方政府在做那觀光署提供人力上面的補助跟協助讓地方政府有更多的資源去做更多的查緝你目前在走的方案就是以查緝跟開罰為基準你認為數字是反而增加你可以怎麼去做調整你把方案給本席好不好好 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那我請陳部長請陳部長我時間都四加一而已 所以我問你三個問題第一個就是屏東縣因為27876平方公里 你去久了"},{"start":31.321,"end":37.907,"text":"所以台北人都騎摩托車比較多現在在騎摩托車的路口只有屏東跟鄉村兩個店在購嘛,對不對?屏東一天最多50個名額,鄉村15個所以一禮拜才有200多個"},{"start":55.671,"end":62.748,"text":"很不方便,常常在歡迎,現在年輕人在打架,都要遭到割擁,否則你不知道這個事情"},{"start":64.581,"end":84.747,"text":"報告委員這段時間確實針對這個考照的部分大家從上網的這個預約的狀況來看確實最近的提供的量確實不足那尤其屏東我們有特別去關注到這個問題就是說我們希望能夠未來第一我們提高預約的名額讓大家報名比較容易一點才不會像現在那麼強"},{"start":85.547,"end":91.511,"text":"第二,如果可以下鄉的話,像委員在講的,鄉村一層、屏東一層,屏東這麼遠,百多公里的長途,我們有機會可以做下鄉考照的部分,我們盡量來合作,屏東的鄉親可以更加方便。對啦,現在年輕人在預約,常常抱怨的是,比廟宅演唱會票更難。"},{"start":111.874,"end":125.439,"text":"一天五十個實在太誇張了所以短期之內我們會要求監理站他們把這個考照的名額提高百分之十轉播轉購都提高百分之十讓大家比較有利就剛才兩個點了你跟人家說萬一是什麼都給十萬的"},{"start":129.96,"end":151.595,"text":"我先提高百分之十啦後續我也希望可以讓更多人來參加所以我們會看需求的比例譬如說我們剛才前一陣子有人在抱怨說報考率其實低所以造成很多的空額之前的報考率只有百分之七十五那我們經過一月份檢討完之後現在報考率已經到百分之九十七但是有報名的一百個有九十七個會來課農會長要存三個過去是農會長二十五個那太多了啦"},{"start":158.28,"end":178.094,"text":"我們現在把報考率提高 總額也提高有聽你很用心的 你這樣抵達你自己說的出來委員有在關心 我們一定要注意好 要加強啦 讓他們比較方便的啦今天的問題是 你現在70歲到74歲你去大院會給我回答 你要研究研究說 你要平等官70歲到75歲有三萬八千"},{"start":187.745,"end":197.971,"text":"八千多人七十五歲到四萬幾人你現在叫這三萬多人你現在是怕什麼要做體檢還是要做其他的信箱測驗等等跟委員報告我們現在兩項我們跟日本的制度一模一樣日本也是這樣做七十歲到七十四歲這段我們是做提檢第一提檢第二我們免費提供他們兩小時的課程"},{"start":216.243,"end":224.052,"text":"讓他了解新的溝通規則跟新的號誌 讓他做什麼藝術因為現在我們的號誌跟標線常常在蓋有些東西他看不懂 我們要補充一下讓他了解所以這兩項做到 我們就可以讓他新的體驗體驗不是大陸做大醫療院所做還是企業做"},{"start":232.984,"end":252.413,"text":"醫療院所或衛生所或是那個醫療院所 衛生所都可以我做了那些合計的企業你還有做一個記憶的說十方水個 那是認知測驗在日本也是一樣認知測驗 那是75回再開始做你是比照哪一個國家啊 我在想農學科醫生我不知道你們在這裡到底會不會認知測驗其實是在測驗公有失智沒有啦在日本也是75回開始做我們台灣的醫學會我們都有跟他們討論所以你70到70歲"},{"start":263.458,"end":273.55,"text":"不用做認知測驗 但是75歲就要做認知測驗啦因為那個失智的風險比較高我們要先檢查他有失智的狀況你有要下森嗎 有時候有要下森 還是一樣就要找病棟師本來說是一個病棟師 一個店 你三萬五你要叫他去 大家叫我去我家"},{"start":281.601,"end":300.758,"text":"來是不是 我請教中心回答跟我們報告一下 確實在屏東的部分的話就是就是我們那個屏東站跟這個這一個分站的部分啦那我跟我們報告就是說75歲的部分的話是現行的一個這個高齡換照關懷換照的一個制度"},{"start":302.58,"end":324.276,"text":"那另外針對即將在5月底要實施的這個提前到70歲關懷的這個部分的話原則上就是只有這個體檢跟這個免費這個相關這個講習的部分然後這一塊我現在請各區鑑定所就是按照委員剛剛所提到的部分他所寫的這個人數有多少"},{"start":324.696,"end":336.867,"text":"然後在規劃的一個據點 未來的據點會包括就是說我們會有這一個外派啦包括這個就是一些這個就是說高齡者可能比較常聚集的這些相關的 柳州啦 香港啦 鄉村啦你也要有一個店給這裡的老人家保證你常去鄉村 你不知道鄉村多忙喔"},{"start":345.255,"end":351.746,"text":"據點我們盡量去配合啦讓鄉親們方便委員在關心的就是這個啦讓鄉親大家方便這我怎麼做啦你說四月份要有data嘛要有刮症"},{"start":358.295,"end":380.032,"text":"所以這裡再問一回 有在整理的 有在做的有 我想再補充一點就是比較這個鄉下地區的部分的話一定會跟鄉公所做結合這些老人比較 這是高齡 長輩比較常聚會的場所我們就會透過陸老師然後來做處理主席 我36歲了 我問最後一個問題我很久沒來你們家了"},{"start":384.756,"end":393.302,"text":"你剛才說我們的原油百分之72是從波斯灣來我們的液態瓦斯是32%從卡達來那現在那邊都歸零那你說這些液態天然氣現在吊一船來給富人10億喔"},{"start":402.995,"end":425.79,"text":"本來我就是不關 要再給付全部 現在我們經濟部門說他掉十倍損現在是都去退掉 我都很注意這個你剛才說的那個油 未到未來 其實我不知道 那不是我報告的所以這個部門是不是 我們中油跟南元素有在一起 你要跟他們請教嗎我現在要問的就是說 你到底是去退掉"},{"start":426.804,"end":452.394,"text":"然後是多少再來就是說你現在說自己蓋燒你如果沒有蓋燒一L的957可能到四十幾坨有沒有這個事情跟文報告跟那個油的部份就是電池船從哪邊調的部分跟回答委員就是主要現在是主要從美澳那邊來然後其他還有一些別的地區的那那個油價部分我是不是請中油的那個羅副總回答"},{"start":453.087,"end":474.964,"text":"說你蓋二百六十億 三百億 還有這件事委員報告這個詢問當然是有增加起來啦但是政府也有在注意這個問題所以有一些專案融資貸款的這個部分現在政府都在協調這件事 其實台電跟電郵現在蓋二百六十億 三百億啦這個重點 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陽學文發言 邀請部長原始部長兩位人好 部長好等一下 等那個電腦"},{"start":28.595,"end":56.442,"text":"好 部長好你認不認識圖卡上面的這些人這是在11年前為了保護我們的下一代我們堅持修訂學校衛生法也就是禁止基改的食材進入校園藍綠大家一起努力去完成在11年前那所以呢這是我們非常重視的一個食安紅線"},{"start":58.092,"end":81.769,"text":"所以在美方2026年NTE的時候的這個報告當中他說 他實際上說 不會希望能夠放寬這個部分那本席要說的 如果在美方的要求我們任意的輕言退讓那同時就是面臨著朝野立委的政治反彈"},{"start":83.79,"end":88.692,"text":"所以本席要在這邊來請教基改食品因為當時民進黨告訴台灣的家長說基改食品是給豬吃的飼料及黃豆這句話那孩子在學校因為他沒有選擇權所以政府必須要代位的來把關那部長11年過去了"},{"start":109.384,"end":135.432,"text":"現在美國在2026年的NTE裡頭他報告一指責我們說是貿易壁壘那當時的飼料豆突然要變成了食品嗎請做說明跟委員說明在我們初步的這個ART裡面呢對於基改食品的措施的沒有改變所以仍然維持這個基改食品不進校園一定要確定"},{"start":136.252,"end":144.341,"text":"打這個關因為美國指令我們的是什麼呢他說缺乏科學證據但是我要再一次的強調我們當時通過這個法案最重要的最重要是基於學童無權選擇"},{"start":154.272,"end":169.409,"text":"他沒有選擇權所以政府必須代位的來管理這個責任就是當時我們通過最重要的學校衛生法已經是明定喔它是 約法是明定禁止四項"},{"start":170.61,"end":192.966,"text":"這個就是說我們通過的法律這是我們主權國家的一個法律根源並不是行政部門可以隨便的來妥協的行政命令所以因此2014年到2025年的時候呢政府跟我們的家長團體大家達成這個共識就是社會契約就是社會契約所以呢我們長期"},{"start":195.888,"end":199.53,"text":"對於國民認為這個還是有風險的疑慮的一個情況之下絕對不能不能貿然的退讓所以剛剛我要特別強調的美方的經貿報告是美方的立場"},{"start":213.576,"end":231.363,"text":"是美方的立場但是我們台灣學生的參和是我們主權國家的這個紅線所以我還是要再一次的強調部長一定要把關好這個政府一定要把關好不能有任何的退讓 對不對"},{"start":232.703,"end":241.565,"text":"跟委員說明 目前在ART簽訂的內容裡面呢那麼校園一樣是沒有基改絕對不能有基改使用的還是以國產豬 國產為主好 你講到的豬 我們繼續來講萊劑的內臟 全豬的開放他們也有這個要求 你的立場我們就是按照科學證據 那麼國際的標準然後再經過我們的健康風險評估來訂定"},{"start":261.448,"end":288.625,"text":"哇 那這個有疑慮喔因為它是要求全部未開放但是我們針對於是這樣牛的部分因為過去在這個BSE也就是狂牛症的風險等級變動了它本來美國是被歸類在風險可控制國家現在是風險可忽略國家所以這兩個在國際標準上它的管控"},{"start":290.045,"end":308.511,"text":"風險可忽略國家是全部都可以進口的它是沒有風險疑慮的所以這剛才本席說的好 不要咬人絕字了本席要強調的要求要 他們要要求全豬開放你們的立場到底是什麼也就是內臟的部分"},{"start":310.1,"end":336.348,"text":"如果照剛剛署長 部長你這麼說那個豬的內臟已經開放了所以依照你的說法是如果符合這個標準它是OK的 都OK的喔對對對 就是按照我們的安全容許量所以部長本席認為我們應該要嚴格的來把關因為我們一直強調要怎麼樣讓我們的食安安全我們不能自動的來過濾萊克多巴胺"},{"start":337.512,"end":352.938,"text":"我們一定是按照這個國際標準跟國人的健康來把關沒有問題國人的健康把關一定要全面的這個來管控好那現在本席手上拿的是馬鈴薯發芽的馬鈴薯好 發芽的馬鈴薯"},{"start":356.263,"end":366.174,"text":"有發芽的馬鈴薯照國人的食用也就是有發芽它因為它含有龍葵鹼它是有毒的所以一定會丟掉這個丟掉本身要請教回應美方技術性的貿易壁壘的一個關切"},{"start":376.4,"end":378.522,"text":"有要研議帶芽切片的馬鈴薯進口加工改由工廠自主篩選有沒有這回事不是這樣簡單的說就是過去在海關齁你這個整批裡面只要一顆發芽整批退啦"},{"start":393.514,"end":405.742,"text":"現在的做法是如果有發現有這個發芽的話整批封存然後到一個指定的加工地點再去做剔除而不是整批把它退加工去剔除誰把關你把這個有發芽的你讓他自主去把關他已經切片做成薯條薯片誰知道消費者誰會知道我知道的到底有沒有發芽的馬鈴薯"},{"start":421.792,"end":437.697,"text":"跟委員說明即使是國內的馬鈴薯也有同樣的情況也都需要做剔除在國內採收之後那麼他保存然後送到工廠一樣會出現有發芽的馬鈴薯所以也是要剔除所以作業上呢誰把關請教"},{"start":439.557,"end":443.841,"text":"這個就是我說的技術性的跪下嘛你原本是由政府來把關嘛你現在由工廠自行來把關嘛你不是技術性的跪下嗎對不對本期再一次強調當這樣子的一個情況當它變成薯片薯條的時候消費者誰會知道我吃下的這些切片式的到底有沒有發芽"},{"start":466.38,"end":469.145,"text":"對 所以 不論是進口 不論是本土我們都一樣的標準在把關一樣的標準所以 署長 部長"},{"start":476.198,"end":504.164,"text":"政府的風險管理應該由政府來把關而不是由廠商來自主去控管良心控管消費者要求的是我要知道的政府把關然後建立制度那麼這個加工業者呢也要自律所以我們都有標準在所以消費者你沒有問題民眾有問題啊我知道的你如果進口切片式的萬一他是有發芽的那消費者怎麼會知道請教"},{"start":505.444,"end":507.768,"text":"都是要剔除的 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徐殖密委員好"},{"start":30.458,"end":58.765,"text":"我想今天開宗明義還是要強調這個對外溝通談判大家都希望努力但是我們是務實不務虛那本席不知道說之前因為你也在這一個我們之前嚴慧心副代表那也在這個辦公室裡面已經很長一段時間本席想要先救教一下因為本席有看到一個新聞到底現在外界講說這個霸凌的源頭是直指是現在的一個我們的總代表楊真理啊"},{"start":59.545,"end":72.581,"text":"那2024年 嚴慧心報到的時候那有沒有發生過被我們的代表咆哮的事情是不是可以說明一下有沒有看到這個新聞"},{"start":73.895,"end":96.638,"text":"我有看到 有沒有看到嚴嘉仁講這個是嚴嘉仁所講嘛而且講說當時是有一位徐姓執密帶我們的嚴惠心副代表去他的辦公室坐那之後被楊真妮知道之後爆笑如雷然後之後要求他先出來然後事後特別提到說還跟徐姓執密直接逃銷"},{"start":98.78,"end":127.643,"text":"我們有幾位徐姓執密向委員報告那個裡面講的徐姓執密書應該就是我我們只有一位徐姓執密對 是的那這件事情在這個調查報告裡面在調查的過程當中我都已經有向這個外部委員有說明那如果允許的話我可以在這邊再公開的再說一次我對這個事情完全沒有印象"},{"start":128.143,"end":157.29,"text":"你對這個事情完全沒有印象所以報導裡面指出是說該殖密受楊真尼咆哮責罵你沒有印象是我沒有印象那有沒有在你這個同事的過程裡面到底有沒有看到我們經貿辦公室有霸凌的事件或是感覺到有霸凌的氛圍因為其實本席在未還委員會我覺得最重要的就是我們之前討論勞動部的霸凌事件我們討論相關霸凌事件其實目的只有一個"},{"start":158.05,"end":184.469,"text":"就是我們不希望有任何人用權勢霸凌來造成公務體系公務部門的不對等然後進一步的有人受到傷害但確實現在顏惠心女士她已經離世當然她離世的真的直接理由是不是跟霸凌有關要等調查報告但我想問的是到經貿辦公室他的遺書裡面寫的就是執行層面充滿消極敷衍的態度你有沒有感受到"},{"start":186.244,"end":196.925,"text":"像委員報告我個人是完全沒有感受到所以你覺得經貿辦公室是一個和樂歡樂充滿朝氣那嚴慧心的遺書裡面寫的都不是事實"},{"start":198.893,"end":225.689,"text":"我覺得在那個嚴副總在裡面所提到的就是像他講的CPTPP沒有實成沒有計畫CPTPP的部分我完全沒有聽到他有這樣的那樣的陳述然後在至於編制化的部分這個部分是我跟他一直有在討論過然後也都有努力過那只是因為後來因為對美談判比較密集那所以這個部分有點耽擱但是"},{"start":226.71,"end":244.346,"text":"院裡面也是有給我們六位編制內的人員徐志敏我不知道你是誰的人啊公部門有些時候會看說是誰的人啊但我覺得如果說今天已經一位副代表副總代表離世然後副總代表他是被媒體預稱說他是曾經服務過兩位總統來協助談判溝通"},{"start":247.851,"end":273.165,"text":"結果到目前為止這樣子然後你今天這樣講的好像是他的遺書裡面寫的都不是事實我不知道說你這樣子沒關係你有你的立場但現在調查還在進行當中嘛但本席現在在講的是說其實就是一個很重要的部分到底經貿辦公室過去到現在有沒有讓國人覺得說我明明有打CPTPP結果原來大白話是裡面根本沒有相關的一個計畫跟節奏"},{"start":274.446,"end":300.894,"text":"然後現在楊珍妮總代表我們不管是經濟委員會有邀請過吧今天也沒有來那我不知道說她還可以躲到什麼時候有關CPTPP的部分其實政府的內部都有討論然後相關的部會相關的單位其實都有在分工史無對證嗎所以說她的遺書裡面寫的不是事實也都有在這個史無對證也都有在進行當中"},{"start":301.874,"end":308.143,"text":"他沒有辦法再為自己發聲所以他遺書不是事實那如果說這樣的話我請教行政院長為什麼要重啟調查如果說照你這樣講金茂辦公室 和樂 龍恰"},{"start":314.943,"end":342.06,"text":"那行政院長為什麼第一時間還要重啟調查向委員報告有關於調查的事情那這次都是由外部委員在進行調查當中那本院的立場 院裡的立場就是說相關的進度以及調查的方式都是由外部委員來進行跳針式的回答就不用再繼續了對 因為您剛剛那我針對我個人所以就我個人知道的部分來回答你剛已經回答了嗎來請我們石部長好不好"},{"start":348.328,"end":369.387,"text":"來部長 簡單兩分鐘跟你請教因為剛剛我本席很重視這所謂的食安三十五條那源頭管理的部分因為食安法三十五條明確規定給主管機關可以有食安一律的時候源頭管理去做查場那你先講到是說去年三月有針對我們今年要開放的牛血牛脂等相關的部分進行查場"},{"start":370.918,"end":390.071,"text":"美牛的細節我請署長來說明因為我們現在要很明確的了解是說你們查了因為剛剛我覺得世報委員就是本席也想追問的就是說如果說真的ART通過之後我們什麼時候要去做查詳因為現在要開放的是美牛以及牛隻的副產品包括牛血牛脂等相關嘛"},{"start":391.306,"end":406.846,"text":"去年有查場到這個部分牛脂跟牛血它是要做飼料的是跟人食用是沒有關係的第一件說明第二件是去年三月份的時候我們其實已經出去去查場那去年三月的時候查是查什麼樣的一個"},{"start":407.106,"end":433.192,"text":"還有特別是美牛相關這個議題裡面在ART裡面有提到的一些相關議題那我們就針對那個議題高風險的部位的那我們就進行場的查去了一個禮拜查了四個場來我請教您是我是食藥署署長我是江署長江署長我們什麼時候關稅美國才跟我們做談判我們什麼時候是去年四月啊"},{"start":434.544,"end":456.957,"text":"川普總統是去年四月才提出說全球關稅提高百分之三十然後之後才開始一個國家一個國家過來做談判結果我們的食藥署超前部署去年三月就先去做針對這些開放的部分先做茶場那你們是已經打了 吃了聖駝鐵了是已經知道說要開放了是不是跟委員報告一下"},{"start":458.118,"end":481.434,"text":"因為每一年 你剛剛時序講的不對喔有相關的所謂National NTE但是你剛剛有沒有提到是說為了這一次ART去做茶廠這是你剛剛提到的喔為了這個相關的議題就是歷年來所謂NTE裡面就是為了相關的議題但是過去到現在我們有沒有討論過要開放美牛進一步美牛的相關副產品或是美牛更擴大開放其實並沒有"},{"start":482.648,"end":510.667,"text":"是因為這一次美國總統川普4月之後搞出了一個32%叫全世界大家來談所以我們的經貿辦公室我們的談判代表才去談所以才講是說談到了一個ART而迫於無奈因為我們從32%要調上成20%我們迫於無奈我們要跟日本韓國所以我們必須要開放美牛進一步更大擴大開放但你現在講到一個大白話是原來去年3月我們就在做超前部署啦"},{"start":511.007,"end":536.443,"text":"跟委員報告政府什麼時候做超前部署不是在做管控食安反而在做開放美牛超前部署跟委員報告歷年來的NTE你們對於美牛的議題其實長期都是重要的不覺得非常荒謬嗎所以在這個議題上面我們一直都持續的在做我們的是啊那你如果說沒有打算要開放的話你為什麼要去查一些還沒有開放的地方跟委員說來部長我覺得這一件事情喔"},{"start":538.255,"end":557.24,"text":"國人都在看因為現在感覺是全面失守當初怎麼樣罵美牛民進黨政府在野獸怎麼樣罵美牛講那是毒牛然後2021年要開放進口到現在因為ART你居然跟我們講是說沒有辦法因為我們要競爭力我們要什麼的"},{"start":558.22,"end":571.71,"text":"有沒有即視感啊那個時候要進口什麼美牛美豬說CPTPP CPTPP如果沒有進口的話會不對等不公平沒有辦法加入四年過去了在哪裡"},{"start":572.993,"end":600.755,"text":"跟委員說明那你現在又在一個超前部署應該是這樣講這個美牛的議題一直在進行當中因為呢這個世界動物健康組織重新發布對BSE的風險管控標準不同所以才需要一直在討論這個議題本席認為喔你們現在說一個謊話一百個謊來很難啦來兩個部分給本席一下去年三月你們去茶廠"},{"start":601.576,"end":618.774,"text":"的一個內容報告這可以提供吧那還有請剛剛本席一樣要求就跟賴世保委員一樣就是說如果說假設未來因為ART現在還沒有送進立法院那ART到底要不要我們現在馬上急著簽因為這一次美國從2月24號的關稅到現在"},{"start":622.518,"end":635.567,"text":"也一些國家也都還沒有去簽訂也因此如果說150天之後美國政府也要通過國會授權才能延長那我們有沒有解簽但是送進立法院未來如果說真的有確認相關的話農業部"},{"start":638.221,"end":667.401,"text":"衛福部一定要在生效之後即刻啟動查場這樣可以嗎應該是有新申請項目進來因為雖然有開放不見的有申請有申請的我們才會查有申請就一定要查是不是好那請提供相關資料謝謝另外一個委員補充就是去年3月份其實我們是美國每年都有例行性的查場你剛剛已經講了你來要不要回放一下為了ART所以說去年3月有最相關的查場"},{"start":668.802,"end":677.233,"text":"所以剛剛賴世保委員在質詢的時候才會問說你們要不要新做茶廠你剛剛還先搪塞講說已經去年查過了去年查過了不用"},{"start":680.777,"end":704.845,"text":"欸才十分鐘前欸我沒有要我跟你講今天我們有一說一有二說二你的時序是不對的而這個不對的時序所以本席才講說你請提供去年三月茶場之後的一個資料跟紀錄但我們要講的是為什麼現在開放美牛最正點是所以剛剛所以現在要承認是剛剛口誤是不是是例行性的茶場"},{"start":706.15,"end":729.416,"text":"為什麼會開放美牛為什麼我們要擴大開放為什麼今天專案報告為什麼會有那麼多國人的疑慮啊不就是因為你的ART不就是因為美國的壓力然後說我們要整個開放那沒有幫國人把關然後現在還要跟我們講所以我們現在才講是說站在衛福部站在我們主管機關的角度我們要嚴格把關不要沒有任何的配套好不好 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以及各位先進有請衛福部的石部長以及農業部的杜署長兩位總管好 賴委員好兩位總管好 辛苦了"},{"start":25.165,"end":50.145,"text":"我們看啦 因為今天討論這個Art之後的一個食安的相關的問題那現在看到這個剛才有委員關心 委員關心這個問題就是到美國這個根據我們的食安法第35條規定開放新的肉品以及高風險要擦場"},{"start":52.244,"end":63.371,"text":"35條固定很清楚對不對那現在要開放美牛的內臟裡面心啊肝啊腎啊等等都是高風險部內請問你們規劃要擦場有沒有"},{"start":69.537,"end":76.843,"text":"那個跟委員說明我們去年已經到美國查過系統性查核這個部分你為什麼要查這個啊 這個才我們奧約本才簽的啊奧約本才簽的啊另外跟委員說明的這是歸類的問題是"},{"start":85.51,"end":97.618,"text":"就是說我們在過去BS1的時候呢是把它認定在叫做風險可供國家所以它有部分的這個產品是屬於高風險沒有沒有我現在跟你講12法35條規定這麼清楚"},{"start":104.782,"end":113.609,"text":"那查場這個ART現在說要簽當然現在還沒有送到立法院但是你們應該要趕快就要去查那個到現在為止沒有你是講去年都已經跟你講是ART簽了以後現在就去簽了只是因為這個臨時美國的狀況所以暫時沒有送進來立法院否則已經簽了開了記者會了這時候你們要去查啊對不對根據史安法三十條"},{"start":134.585,"end":141.273,"text":"好那你生肖 後續的話我們都會那你承諾生肖完畢多久以內可以去擦傷"},{"start":144.228,"end":169.728,"text":"現在跟委員提一下因為對於美國相關的進口來台灣本來就已經在系統性查核下已經同意他們的廠的規格符合制度上面我們最近很少查不是嗎去年都還要查查幾次去年就特別有去查去年是特別有去一次一次 前年內前年內前年有沒有我問你前年有沒有"},{"start":172.73,"end":188.495,"text":"我們一直以來都是沒有啊你們查的很少啊這個這個這個現在我們一直開放不要忘了2021年找資料還是我問的那時候市長就叫石崇良石部長那個是什麼"},{"start":190.396,"end":216.176,"text":"那時候次長叫石崇良部長叫陳時中陳時中說2021年要開放30個月的月齡以上的美牛要進來以前是小牛現在是大牛30個月以上的陳時中就說這個新制上路簽一定要去美國查上他公開講的2020年Google一下然後次長叫石崇良"},{"start":217.44,"end":234.025,"text":"對 更遲長就是送糧 也是跟他說戰鬥就是要這樣去啊結果我查了一下你們都沒去啊你們中國去的就是比較有資料的是2014年到2018年查得比較清後面幾乎沒有啊 去年查一次去年查什麼 去年算什麼"},{"start":234.977,"end":251.88,"text":"報告委員我們去年的三月份我們特地去做美牛肉茶場那上次呢差幾家這次去的是我們差一家而已啊應該不止吧去的幾家我覺得應該是確定一下是幾家我們去年的時候是去去幾天去幾天"},{"start":253.517,"end":263.351,"text":"總共差不多約一個禮拜一個禮拜是一個月 差很多累我們同仁們有去跟房間署一起前去查場就去年的三月份已經這個啊這個啊 不懂啊"},{"start":266.633,"end":286.323,"text":"這個我問同樣的問題 上一次你問你的時候是社長 現在是部長 光路主路大了齁但是你不要一直倒退路啊 這個東西人家說啊就千萬大家多少的民主在電視上最擔心的是什麼 我們的食安防線全面撤手"},{"start":287.729,"end":308.444,"text":"這裡面我就跟你講這個到現在為止你沒有規劃你今天承諾只要ART生效多久以內可以去查詳你告訴我我們一定會按照這個食安法的規定來進行食安法規定規定這樣好不好你公開承諾就是只要ART正式簽訂立法院一通過之後半年內去查詳可以嗎"},{"start":312.822,"end":331.936,"text":"或者這樣的一個教授條件我們應該是對 就是說沒有 你要新開放的新開放的 新肝腎啊 新肝腎啊這高風險不會啊 很狡辣啊要有他要進來的我們才會查對啊 要進來的啊當然啊 當然啊 我現在跟你講因為有新開放的啊現在有新肝腎內臟呢新的我們才會查"},{"start":339.341,"end":352.329,"text":"不是啦 新的啦 新的場啦如果你之前就已經是舊的那個就不需要啦為什麼不需要 它以前有開放的部位啊新開放的部位要去啊 對不對"},{"start":357.032,"end":384.04,"text":"半年可以吧正式簽訂也要半年內可以吧其實每年都有固定一次的要查訪那大概都在年中每年至少一次去查幾家就是他核可的五到六家你們把報告給我因為我查資料都查不到我查資料說2018年以後你們都沒有去查沒有從民國九十幾年到"},{"start":385.18,"end":389.241,"text":"我跟委員報告好了謝謝不講了謝謝不講了來來我現在關心來來來部長還有跟那個農業部有關係的前年越南的華國麵包出問題今年的清明節高雄嫩餅嫩餅出問題上個禮拜新北便當上吐下吸"},{"start":403.146,"end":415.814,"text":"人家查出來一個農業部放水原來說規定強制要吸水彈結果呢你們說鼓勵強制改成鼓勵農業部來講一下為什麼這樣來講一下農業部為什麼這麼大的轉變為什麼原來要強制為什麼變成鼓勵咧你不知道怎麼回答"},{"start":433.226,"end":457.848,"text":"委員好 那個今天我代表薰姆斯出席但因為蛋的部分不是我這邊管理的那據我所知如果不是你管你就不要上來的是不是好 謝謝好啦 就沒有 部長啊我重點是部長啊 請問你不是 這個署長你不能回答就是 部長 那我們部長好不好 這個部長你不要去清楚喔這個農業部這樣的改編有沒有知會你 有沒有"},{"start":459.008,"end":477.935,"text":"有沒有告訴你說我們原來是強制現在變成鼓勵有沒有告訴你我們是一直是用鼓勵沒有啊各做各的啊沒有跟你們講啊現在變成是你要守爛攤子喔市部長因為現在走人死要數這裡了"},{"start":479.739,"end":508.862,"text":"在你這裡的食藥署這裡的OK現在責任在你這裡的所以這源頭管理就變成非常非常的重要這個現在來看現在來看我們這個根據實際有點舊了但是2021年也是better than nothing了台灣的民眾37%用非全熟的蛋比如說Sunny side一邊是生的一邊是熟的"},{"start":510.403,"end":537.124,"text":"當然你的拳手比較沒問題啦一扒的人用生蛋日本怎麼做 日本用生食級的 像是SASHIMI這樣來觀控沙門市郡韓國用殺蟲劑抗生素來檢測台灣這裡變成人家日本韓國都越來越鹹我們現在越來越爽那個食藥署要怎麼樣補這一塊不知道你在說什麼"},{"start":538.627,"end":542.533,"text":"食藥署今天來吧就是你就是來江蘇省"},{"start":544.318,"end":567.72,"text":"報告委員 針對整個洗選彈這個制度其實主要政策是在農業部的政策我知道 但是後面是你收尾啊我們對於整個政策上面能夠使用尤其這個大量使用的彈能夠用所謂的殺菌的彈 液彈來進行我覺得是最安全的那這部分未來會跟農業部這邊一起來合作"},{"start":568.741,"end":585.711,"text":"你們要跟樓部講一下啦拜託他們放這麼寬從原來強制變成一個鼓勵怎麼會這個樣子到底是什麼考慮啊是不是選舉考慮啊什麼考慮怎麼會這個樣子我們有三十幾趴的人吃不熟的蛋了這個其實風險非常高的對不對部長"},{"start":591.635,"end":604.823,"text":"我們會跟農業部再來討論看看這政策上怎麼去提高我們看到日本、韓國連加強加嚴格我們是放寬結果這個農業部從後這個衛福部十二署的負責人你要擦屁股變這樣子你不覺得委屈嗎我們會來強化這個兩部會之間的合作很委屈"},{"start":619.394,"end":621.259,"text":"謝謝勒斯董委員的諮詢 接下來請洪夢凱委員諮詢"}]}},{"id":"168599","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168599","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ec77822e2e6eae3bc27a6506f74ea958ea785098ebfecd5e98911b917ba40462f4a3623a33b8b275ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭昱晴","委員發言時間":"14:29:53 - 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那請問這貼標的成本你們有想過嗎 誰要來吸收誰決定吸收 誰願意吸收 這個很重要第三個 就是還是要回歸到我講的 獸醫師的用藥自儲權一個獸醫師 我請問部長 您知道要養成一個獸醫師他需要多久的專業的訓練嗎"},{"start":178.141,"end":205.712,"text":"我記得學智商是六年至少五到七年啊最不好是六七年以上他才可能會是所謂的獸醫師但是問題是我們現在美其名啊說因為藥事法因為我們的這個人類用藥我們人用藥的部分我可能要藥師進來請問這個藥師突然進來的尷尬的一個角色可以凌駕在獸醫師用藥自主權之上嗎"},{"start":206.872,"end":209.413,"text":"他們比較專業藥師比較專業還是獸醫師比較專業回歸到本質我們應該是要顧慮的是獸醫師用藥的自主權好 再來第四點"},{"start":221.411,"end":242.338,"text":"法律未接的不確定性啦雖然現在我們是延緩感覺上是放寬但是問題是一旦這個所謂的放寬的措施頂多就是仰賴所謂的韓式或者是用所謂的行政命令那一線的受益師還是會擔心啊我的位子在哪裡啊我今天不行"},{"start":243.476,"end":272.044,"text":"那或者是我今天可以我明天會不會不行我後天是不是真的就沒藥用了我想這個部分我們還是不要讓在一線的醫療的尤其是動物醫師獸醫師的身上處於長期法律的灰色的地帶在這裡我給這個兩個部會其實大家今天都有來我給幾項的建議第一我先確保獸醫師的用藥自主權我想呢在藥品"},{"start":273.284,"end":299.785,"text":"進入到所謂的動物醫院之前人用藥的部分當然是由衛福部來主管但一旦這個藥進入到了獸醫師的醫療現場麻煩把這個部分回歸到農業部去監管而不是兩邊對兩邊大家一直在站著自己的本位主義結果中間很大的一個空窗我要四組來負擔啊這不公平啊非常的不公平啊"},{"start":300.345,"end":315.105,"text":"好 第二點落實負面表列的過渡機制剛剛其實也有委員特別提到我想這是一個方向那雖然我們剛剛有提到說包含一些比較重要的管制的藥品或者是所謂的高風險的抗生素之外"},{"start":315.766,"end":338.731,"text":"那我們是不是能夠從所謂的逐向核准變成所謂的負面表列我想這個是一個參考的方向也是很多的我們的獸醫師他們提出來他們希望的我們可以學美國我們可以去看日本人家怎麼做用藥的自主權也很重要負面表列也是一個可行的方向第三點"},{"start":339.531,"end":359.605,"text":"明確的動物診療機構的法定地位我們讓他確定好嗎好嗎這個部分我想如果我們把所謂的動物診療的機構明確列為合法的藥品供應的一個對象他就不會因為各地行政的含釋不同而會有不同的偏差這也是要維持整個所有他們在醫療上面的一個穩定的一個效率再來第四"},{"start":368.308,"end":397.002,"text":"也是結論啦齁急重症還有偏鄉這個可敬性的配套啊一定要到位好嗎一定要到位沒有解決我剛剛所說的這些問題之前我想這不是只有暫緩讓人家還是一樣我還是心生恐懼啊你就算暫緩我很擔心我今天你會贏的明天不會贏的啊我會怎麼樣明天我沒有優堂醫醫我的毛孩子他是我的家人欸那怎麼辦"},{"start":397.902,"end":401.911,"text":"所以我說真正的問題沒有解決之前根本不能談上路這兩個字可以嗎"},{"start":405.369,"end":429.337,"text":"跟委員說非常認同剛剛委員所提的這幾個重要的重點跟方向這個我覺得很認同那麼為了讓大家不用擔心其實這個辦法還沒有上路根本還沒有上路那是7月1號那因為可能很多的業者開始擔心所以不敢出藥沒有啊那所以呢我們會依據在這個新的辦法還沒有"},{"start":432.318,"end":455.087,"text":"這個公布之前呢我們會由食藥署來發函給所有的藥商他們可以依據這個受醫師的請求那麼去出貨這個部分我們一定因為我們都知道目前現階段701項當中只有216項有登錄嘛真正的有登錄的這個系統當中我們看到的是140幾項而已嘛對不對"},{"start":457.768,"end":475.033,"text":"但是這個701項之後還會增加呢還會再增加呢我們現在第一步就是至少這個701項一定可以穩定供應不會受到困擾藥商就是可以直接提供給受醫師來使用不用繞過藥局"},{"start":476.933,"end":501.44,"text":"第二個呢 這個在獸醫的治療上面並沒有醫藥分業所以還是由獸醫師來主導所有的治療 診斷跟用藥包含藥物的調劑這些都是它並沒有跟人醫一樣有醫藥分業的制度這個我們也把它確認那麼第三個呢 未來在這個制度設計的時候"},{"start":502.58,"end":514.093,"text":"那一定會考量到剛剛您提到這幾個夜間那麼其實人藥也是一樣啊也有夜間也有偏鄉也一樣所以這個制度上呢也一定都會考量進來讓他的這個用藥的可敬性要能夠提高好"},{"start":518.157,"end":521.478,"text":"那也謝謝部長那謝謝農業部其實願意傾聽這個一線所有的市主他們的心聲動物不會講話但市主要幫忙他講話我是市主其中之一我也在這裡幫我的毛小孩講話可以嗎也幫一線的獸醫師加油打氣可以嗎好謝謝謝謝郭益群委的諮詢"}]}},{"id":"168598","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168598","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ec77822e2e6eae396caeb02639b5dbf8ea785098ebfecd5e98911b917ba4046bcaba41c2d3d6ba95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"14:21:29 - 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主席 我們有請農業部的房間署跟食藥署吧有請杜署長 江署長"},{"start":19.7,"end":35.059,"text":"好 謝謝那我想今天早上其實已經聽到就是說我們這個辦法會註銷那我先簡單問一句那這個因為我看到新聞上面也有講說我們好像也有在新的辦法在討論了對不對好 那我想要先確認幾個事情因為我們之前這個爭議其實真正的關鍵在於說"},{"start":38.963,"end":53.373,"text":"其實不是申請有多複雜啦也不是門檻有多高啦其實就是後面的出貨行政作業太複雜啦程序太複雜因為呢人用藥轉為動物用藥之後的貼標制度到目前為止這一塊其實並沒有被真正的解決"},{"start":58.171,"end":73.498,"text":"所以人用藥之所以要貼標最主要就是要做用途區隔跟流向管理也就是避免誤用在人身上同時讓主管機關可以掌握藥品的流向問題就是在於這整個制度忽略了一個最基本的問題就是GMP的制度"},{"start":78.537,"end":100.383,"text":"這邊跟委員報告一下我們現在藥廠當然是Pick GMP的藥廠我們針對這個貼標轉換成我們現在的動物保護用藥的過程當中如何協助他貼標在貼標的過程其實我們會跟農業部這邊協作不一定要在Pick GMP廠內做貼標我們可能是在盤商可能是在經銷商能夠去確實來做這件事情跟藥廠溝通這件事情嗎這件事情我們"},{"start":103.824,"end":128.419,"text":"在新的制度持續的把這件事情能夠確立下來因為最後的方式的話還需要有很多stakeholder的溝通所以這邊我們持續會做的好我了解喔因為我想這個我不太確定是多久已經有溝通啦但是因為這是我們最近這段時間跟藥商這邊來了解了他們提到的問題其實是在這裡啦就是這個異地貼標對大家來說難度實在是非常的高所以"},{"start":129.219,"end":155.295,"text":"就是說他們也有提出一個解方既然你們也非常清楚了就是說大家的期待就是說我們不要選擇成本這麼高也這麼不符合實務的管制方式我們可以透過中盤來做標示分流甚至搭配流向申報或是記錄機制來達到同樣的管理目的那這樣子呢可以避免藥廠因為GMP批次出貨整批改標所產生的高成本"},{"start":156.656,"end":180.181,"text":"那也能夠維持藥品的流向可溯及性甚至更貼近食物流通的運作方式那這個看起來剛從您的回答裡面也是你們雙方都已經同意了往這個方向來努力對嗎對的謝謝委員的提示也是整個的方向這樣子對能夠貼近使用端能夠取得方便性以及在藥商供應的時候他們也可以完成我們的標示的辨識性"},{"start":182.65,"end":203.859,"text":"我想我還是會覺得說我們在整個處理的過程之中我們應該有行政怠惰因為這件事情其實如果更早之前我們了解為什麼藥商來登記這麼少的時候就應該要積極來協助而不是等到現在這個時候才來想這個辦法再來就是說我們新的辦法會不會從負面表列的方式來處理呢"},{"start":204.779,"end":228.395,"text":"這也是大家非常關注的因為其實最主要是說我們對於一些基本的胃藥工具像是ECC的針頭來說或者是脫水常用的乳酸鄰隔試液與忽略針或者是兔子等特殊寵物要用的這個優利酥保濕型點眼液這基本上在現在的藥局不管是連鎖的社區藥局他通通都領不到他通通都買不到所以"},{"start":229.255,"end":248.334,"text":"大家就會期待說我們是不是可以像多數國家一樣是採取負面表列的方式或是類似的制度也就是原則性開放例外限制並搭配受益的專業判斷跟事後管理而不是全面的事前限制所以我想了解我們新的方法新的辦法是不是也可以往這個負面表列的方式來努力呢"},{"start":249.919,"end":274.507,"text":"這邊跟委員做一些說明的確委員這邊做了非常完整的一些說明那以美歐日三個區域來提的話管理機構在美歐其實是分別是FDA跟EMA可是在日本的話其實就像我們類似台灣我們是其實很多是跟日本制度比較近一方面是後生勞動一方面是農林水產省的一個人一個是動物"},{"start":275.347,"end":291.707,"text":"那採取的方式供藥的部分其實是藥局或者藥商都是採取雙軌制對於正面表現負面表現的部分我們看到日本其實是原則上面規範如果沒有替代用藥那獸醫師會做判斷所以我們目前對動保用藥"},{"start":292.828,"end":310.8,"text":"也經過就我們了解是雙方做一些溝通之後也跟我們的獸醫師能夠確立哪些是需要的能夠進入我們的所謂的動保用藥目前是偏向這樣負面表列這個部分我們持續在這個部分我們會針對這個部分去思考"},{"start":311.513,"end":327.285,"text":"好 我想部長可能要補充 對嗎好 我來直接把這個做一點原則性的因為在動保法的第四條第二項談到是藥物就是當動物用的藥物不足的時候由人用藥物這邊公告去使用"},{"start":327.885,"end":350.64,"text":"那藥物包含了醫材跟藥品那從醫材的角度來看這個選擇性太多我們沒有辦法正面表列做不了所以醫材的部分應該採用負面表列它的這個風險管理程度也比較低就只要針對一些非常高風險的去排除就好但是藥品的部分"},{"start":351.22,"end":373.813,"text":"那涉獵的風險度就比較高裡面有很多是麻醉藥啦很多管制藥抗生素等等的那可能初步還是用正面表列那麼會比較安全性的管理所以大概可以採取這樣的方式來思考因為它這個法裡面把這個藥物兩個通通框進來了醫材跟藥品都框進來了"},{"start":374.073,"end":384.273,"text":"好 了解 那我想問一下就是說因為這個畢竟還是希望可以傾聽第一線的聲音所以我想了解的是說我們現在有沒有規劃大概什麼時候會來找我們相關的不管是收費師團體"},{"start":387.035,"end":409.144,"text":"對 公會來討論這樣子謝謝委員因為這個新的辦法嘛 大家都非常關注對 這個註銷公告然後公告了以後那我們也會同步來討論 擬定這個草案當我們凝聚了這個草案內容以後那獲可以後 我們大概就會全國開始來溝通進行宣講然後收集大家的意見"},{"start":410.104,"end":431.784,"text":"對 是全國開說明會還是座談會 因為這兩樣說明會比較是我公告你 我告訴你什麼所以我們應該是座談會吧 座談會的形式收集大家的意見大概是什麼時候呢 有沒有預計的時程表如果我們雙方都對這個草案 我們也預定說如果達成共識的話 看給我們"},{"start":433.325,"end":458.822,"text":"還是要一段時間啦 可能幾個月的時間 可能三個月好 那我們兩個月之後再來關注一下你們的進度好不好因為大家都非常關注這件事情那最後一件事情就是說我上個禮拜在這個農業部的諮詢的時候也有特別提到啦就是有關於生動物在取得藥物的時候難度非常的高畢竟相對的距離還是很遙遠畢竟在像野灣所在的台東池上想光取得人物的用藥都非常的困難"},{"start":459.762,"end":482.47,"text":"所以我是希望 那他們上禮拜其實也有那個林業署的同仁也有出席相關的會議所以我也是希望說在我們考量這個辦法的時候也要邀請我們野生動物相關的救傷團體林業署來去聆聽他們的聲音因為也許他們的困境又比我們想像來得更高 可以嗎已經納進來了 對 他們的意見都已經納進來了"},{"start":484.591,"end":492.028,"text":"對 但是因為接下來還要開相關的座談會嘛這個都是一定要邀請他們的好嗎 謝謝好 謝謝好 謝謝詹雅琳委員的資訊"}]}},{"id":"168597","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168597","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ec77822e2e6eae347d36c77ac7df1df8ea785098ebfecd5e98911b917ba4046fd79bbc0b0a3b3945ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪毓祥","委員發言時間":"14:12:47 - 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我們有請農業部我想這一次這個是搞得大家人仰馬翻你可能知道我們這個地方的黨部的電話接不完"},{"start":31.588,"end":52.454,"text":"那接不完的反應的是什麼我想這個你在FB上面或者是在所有的這個網站那我們接的電話都是這種我的毛小孩醫用氧氣不足拿罪藥然後我半夜要去拿東西我想這你們應該都知道那受醫師就說毛不太懂然後就是這些東西問他說這怎麼辦什麼沒有登錄"},{"start":61.778,"end":66.721,"text":"這就是問題嘛這已經發生了那我的問題就是說奇怪這個東西他如果按照我們我們之前這個這個剛剛這個農業部這個也也也說了其實這個問題起源很早了"},{"start":80.318,"end":107.828,"text":"可能我看是在2012年事件發生以後對 因為它很多事件很多事件的交錯比如說你可能這個獸醫在用的時候用到尾藥然後發生一些風波對不對然後我這個藥商對不對他可能也怕觸法所以我也不敢供貨給這些的動物醫院所以在我們動保法那時候"},{"start":109.068,"end":134.572,"text":"也就是在我們動保法第四條裡面第二項我先稍微念一下這個我想早上我也聽過這個我想講了很多治療動物疾病之藥物不足只有中央主管機關公告之人用藥物類別得為獸醫師括號佐填入診療紀錄使用於犬貓及非經濟動物那你的第三項基本上就是你會在根據前項這些人用藥物制定"},{"start":135.413,"end":153.774,"text":"這樣子的一個管理的一個辦法所以我這邊的用字不好不要寫修正 自訂對不對管理辦法我們是不用審的就送來備查因為就是你衛福部跟農業部的事情好 113年就公告了對不對113年就公告"},{"start":155.253,"end":180.832,"text":"再來是7月要實施嘛公告寫了這一堆我想這個當然藥商有藥商的困擾啦因為他整個包裝啦食材成分啦對不對然後副作用等等用量這些都要做那我們也都清楚反正獸醫師現在目前醫藥也沒有分離嘛所以你們在這個第四條這個就是使用管理辦法裡頭能用藥品都有保護藥品這些等等"},{"start":181.833,"end":190.502,"text":"這也都寫了很好啊都寫了可是就在要實施的時候哇一堆的火就跑出來了就很奇怪啊就兩年了你要公告之前我就在想這就是奇怪了行政的怠惰就在這邊啊你也知道要藥商要去登錄嘛"},{"start":205.782,"end":230.175,"text":"可是他登錄就是很麻煩還是說他登錄的意願不高不管是誘因不足嗎我們也知道動物用藥在人用藥來法量就很少嘛我不需要我開這支然後去做這支藥品啊可是這個跟我們這些毛氏族跟都是寵物的對不對我們毛小孩這些的氏族跟這些獸醫師來講他就造成很大的suffer"},{"start":232.247,"end":241.021,"text":"好所以呢這個地方哎兩三百萬嘛對不對選舉也快到了呢啊現在掉這個康出來我就覺得怪了"},{"start":241.94,"end":266.626,"text":"然後我們還被青鳥車一甩鍋說這個是我們前林運軍委員用的完全就不是嘛當時要司理會是這個黃金順現在的總統府的國策顧問然後這個辦法也不是說我剛剛講過管理辦法所以你們送來立法院備查我們也不用審而且他是2月20幾號送過來的才剛當2月1號不久不可能去制定法案"},{"start":267.56,"end":294.842,"text":"所以我是覺得這些東西就是造成了大家的很多的痛苦那我的意思是說為什麼會這樣子就是民意的反撲之後然後你們也慌張的開了4月12開個會最後喊卡那當初制定這個管理辦法為什麼會這樣那個好報告委員是如果委員今天如果想去看這個原來的公告辦法"},{"start":296.192,"end":316.966,"text":"那這個原來的辦法會今天自然難行是第一個他一定要人用藥轉為動物用藥所以他一定要登記那剛剛您也有談到我在登錄的過程之中我今天是人用的藥商我要轉個身份到動物的藥商除了你來登錄我還是要再強調其實我們登錄一定簡便話"},{"start":318.393,"end":346.686,"text":"一週你來申請登錄所以是誘因不足我再簡單更簡單一點因為時間不多所以說他考慮的很多當然有誘因也是一個問題成本也是一個問題那第二個就是貼標籤要標籤化你要貼標籤好那我比方說我們今天有一個十盒一個外包裝那麼依照我們現有的方法你講的都困難嘛但是這個離毛小孩離寵物離動物的東西為什麼這個辦法"},{"start":348.347,"end":376.308,"text":"這個辦法在哪一期我現在時間快一點因為早上我請這個這個衛福部可能署長就好了啦部長坐就好了 你們吃飯吃完了來就是你們兩個署安定這樣亂七八糟現在根據早上衛福部部長的說法也就是說根據動保法第四條第二當你們現在暫緩實施甚至剛剛你講過的對不對我們就是把它公告這個作為辦法先註銷"},{"start":377.742,"end":389.958,"text":"那這樣子的話我根據動保法第四條第二項現在本來就可以用嘛是吧好知道我們的這個台大收益系的名教授對不對葉立生"},{"start":394.302,"end":411.983,"text":"農業部應該知道嘛去看一下人家FB現在這些獸醫師反映的是這些很多藥我拿不到比如說像這個寄生的沖洗液中孔大孔的非常好沖洗現在只有小孔可以用然後你跟他藥商訂貨說現在沒辦法我沒有登記所以我就不用"},{"start":414.269,"end":425.514,"text":"他寫的這不是我寫的你們去查沒有不用說明了我就是說你們常常跟我們講說沒問題都不會有早上部長也這樣都不會有也有但是現在收益室的反應就是沒有嘛"},{"start":430.578,"end":458.252,"text":"那藥廠給你的回答就是說對不起我現在就不出貨很多喔你去看這個葉老師的這一個FB他是請各個收益師東西列出這一段所以你們要去體察這些的民情好不好那我是覺得針對這些東西既然我還是覺得有一個矛盾啦如果你根據第四條第二項現在就可以用的時候然後你這個辦法也註銷了對不對你也說現在都可以了那我就請各位真的"},{"start":459.81,"end":471.745,"text":"不要再制定了還是你要制定出來又會產生新的災害我不知道因為如果根據我們石部長講的動保法第四條第二項我只要經過主管機關公告就可以了是不是這樣 目前"},{"start":475.492,"end":501.805,"text":"後面的是我們在第三項裡面特別提到那使用管理的辦法所以現在是要在辦法的部分讓他的管理能夠更清楚因為除了使用現在辦法還沒出來我們部長就說了啦對不對你們先註銷然後收益師都可以要保障用到藥起碼在這個短期的期間你們要去看看這個葉教授的對不對哪些是有缺的這個是你們兩個鼠要去通力合作"},{"start":502.405,"end":515.279,"text":"沒問題 我們這部分也有跟我們的藥可以啦 就緊急用藥的啦然後讓獸醫師診所這些東西可以照顧我們這些毛小孩的氏族可以啦 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就希望說這些替代的抽菸計畫或是他們稽查分工跟地方的這些能夠用書面的形式來給委員會說明我們希望用觀察的資料讓民眾安心再來就是我們現在的那個萊克多巴胺的這些檢驗方法就是現在有些就可能也會調整它的劑量或者是檢驗方法那我想說這樣的一個評估結果能不能有每一劑或是每年的一個對我們暴露以後我們對國人的一些健康的影響"},{"start":164.488,"end":192.285,"text":"在我們調整MIL標準的時候都會有事先的健康風險評估然後才參考國際的標準再根據我們所做的健康風險評估來核定至於檢驗方法最主要是對齊國際的檢驗標準不然的話定的標準一樣可是檢驗方法不一樣的話就會產生落差所以我們現在是一方面要把檢驗的方法跟其他國家是一致"},{"start":193.266,"end":217.959,"text":"大家驗起來才會相同不然他驗他合格我驗會不合格所以這個要一致那標準的部分我們也是按照不論以後我是覺得說可能也是要衛福部這邊要留意是哪些族群要特別注意比如說消費者到市場或者是超商或是餐廳的時候他應該要看到什麼標示讓他警惕啊或者是說提醒自己我是覺得這個把關這個部後面這個部分應該是也要做到"},{"start":219.019,"end":243.286,"text":"對於這個民眾宣導的部分我們也會來講馬雲署的部分是大家都今天都講了很多不過我想知道說我們不能是期待業者自律那個機制要怎麼做你是不是給完全給廠商去做一個類似像良心的一個所謂的剔除嗎比如說我們分選不實或者是報廢不實劉相有沒有追蹤這些有沒有做這樣的規劃"},{"start":244.366,"end":270.465,"text":"好 我們不會只靠業者自律所以在邊境的部分他還是會有處理如果他的這個比例過高的時候還是可能會整批要替回的只是說過去只要裡面有我們就整批退回那這確實是也不合時期因為在國內一樣會有同樣的狀況所以就是採取後面到指定的加工地點去做這個剔除"},{"start":272.987,"end":283.773,"text":"那至於說怎麼樣去管理這個剔除加工的過程那當然由我們這個食藥署會訂出相關的規範來執行我是不是也請署長補充一下"},{"start":285.69,"end":304.631,"text":"謝謝委員提問我們對於有些腐爛發霉的其實我們就會再製再製廠之後其實要再次確認之後才會放行所以並不是說他們的業者自律相信他這是我們行政部門持續的把關確定完之後還是會重新再看"},{"start":304.991,"end":306.753,"text":"我們學校衛生法明定不能使用基改食品"},{"start":322.088,"end":343.614,"text":"不過就他們現在的NTE報告就是多次我國撤下這方面的規定所以民眾還是會有疑慮你會不會到最後會態度軟化或者是你們心裡面的那把尺到底是不是能夠堅守這方面的一個原則各位報告在有關基改食品的部分的管理在ART裡面我們是沒有退讓所以這個我們還是嚴守我們本來的規範這個不會進校園"},{"start":347.575,"end":369.646,"text":"請委員放心現在是優先採購國產嘛可是如果是就偏向一些學校他是高度依賴外包的團散那你要怎麼辦去怎麼講他可能沒有告知啊或者說他去觸犯了這方面他沒有他並不知道說這些是基凱食品你要怎麼去防範學校去買到這些東西是"},{"start":370.066,"end":392.974,"text":"跟委員報告兩點 第一點是我們有一個實燈平台 實燈平台會把所有的食材 食材登錄在場內的我們的平台上供全民檢驗 供我們的專家檢驗第二個是我們有嚴重的罰則 最終可以解除契約以上兩點 謝謝 目前的以肉食品而言 那麼我們這四年來從實施之後 我們是用一錶板 是百分之百的用國產豬肉"},{"start":393.934,"end":421.566,"text":"所以我們偏鄉學校中央廚房的計畫是有這方面的一個把資訊公開嗎對對是全國所有學校是是好謝謝那現在就針對剛才王正旭我也有提到我們的機場人力那我想知道我們現在的這些的規劃是什麼因為到最後是會偏到地方政府或者是說一些地方查核的這些量能我是覺得有沒有足夠的預算跟人力去做這些事情"},{"start":422.306,"end":446.463,"text":"會不會有沒有做提早的一個規劃跟委員說明就是邊境的人力就是由我們中央負責那麼由食藥署那現在也向行政院多爭取的員額所以員額已經增加只是呢因為這個工作也相當辛苦啦所以沒有聘滿所以我們要想辦法改善那麼他的一些薪資條件來增加這個人才的羅製"},{"start":447.544,"end":476.646,"text":"至於在地方稽查後市場查核的部分那麼這個工作是屬於地方所以地方上的因應統籌分配款這個分配地方的裁員也增加了所以我們當然也會來要求在未來我們有一些補助款像這個防疫議題的這個新興計畫裡面我們也編了未來這個關於食安的預算那我們會用這個補助的時候也要求地方政府要相對的補足人力"},{"start":477.566,"end":495.854,"text":"謝謝部長,對寵物醫療的部分就幾個問題,簡單的來問一下,當然我們知道人的24小時都不可能,寵物的24小時的窗口,你覺得是不是要,如果真的以後會有的話,是不是也要公告給國人知道?"},{"start":498.366,"end":510.113,"text":"受醫院可以提供24小時服務的受醫院有嗎 人的都很難了 受醫院有嗎受醫院有24小時 有嗎"},{"start":511.809,"end":532.817,"text":"有有那我們就把它整理出來對我是覺得應該給國人知道讓他知道說如果真的發生什麼事他可以就近去處理接下來一個比較他們就是常常會問的問題就是現在藥事法是一個法律農委會這邊是行政命令他們認為說藥生出藥給從醫院的話是不是違法的事情"},{"start":533.257,"end":553.297,"text":"好跟委員說明因為這個使用的這個動物使用這個人用藥品其實是在這個動保法的第四條第二項已經授權所以一樣是法律未接那只是說管理的規定是定在第四條的第三項的授權法規來做管理"},{"start":553.777,"end":576.076,"text":"就是沒有問題 對沒有問題 授權OK還有就是負面表列就是需要現在是這樣嗎是不是會排擠以後的動物專用藥品的研發對 這個委員提到的也是在有些國家也是這樣子就是說如果有動物的專用藥那就要排除用人藥不然就不會有這個動物專用藥的研發出來的"},{"start":579.099,"end":605.331,"text":"在負面表列也好或者正面表列也好都要注意到這樣的現象好你有留意到齁那前幾年我們有遇到點滴的事件那我有聽到消息說很像在當初在點滴缺乏的時候是請製造動物點滴的先去做人的那這個這個消息是真的嗎沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有這回事沒有這回事他還是都是GMP廠都是GMPOK好那我好謝謝是是好謝謝謝謝昭偉"},{"start":610.762,"end":610.924,"text":"好 謝謝盧憲一"}]}},{"id":"168600","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168600","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ec77822e2e6eae38b3c11da7d4b186a8ea785098ebfecd5e98911b917ba40465de5def0959499e85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃秀芳","委員發言時間":"14:39:08 - 14:49:19","影片長度":"00:10:11","會議時間":"2026-04-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、行政院經貿談判辦公室、經濟部、農業部、教育部就「美國貿易代表署發布《2026年各國貿易評估報告》（2026NTE）提及技術性貿易壁壘或食品安全檢驗與動植物防疫檢疫SPS）壁壘之豬肉、牛肉與牛肉產品、β促進劑的最大殘留容許量等各項食農相關產品及技術之要求，我國所承諾之措施、移除產品禁令或取消輸入口岸檢疫程序等，並特就其中開放切片馬鈴薯帶芽（或腐爛或發黴）仍能整批進口與其敦促撤銷基改食品進校園，對我國食品安全造成之衝擊與因應作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n\n邀請衛生福利部、農業部、行政院消費者保護處就「寵物用藥新制上路在即，犬貓及非經濟動物急重症醫療銜接、藥品流向管理、飼主取得可近性與消費權益保障之整體配套」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n\n【專題報告綜合詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-04-15","start_time":"2026-04-15T14:39:08+08:00","end_time":"2026-04-15T14:49:19+08:00","duration":611,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":5,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-5-26-6"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.907218750000002,"end":11.860343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.130343750000002,"end":12.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.399093750000002,"end":49.525343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.37409375,"end":47.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.30159375,"end":56.30909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.69346875,"end":55.330343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.752218750000004,"end":56.14034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.51159375,"end":76.27221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.54534375,"end":57.87846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.18596875,"end":61.69221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.50846875,"end":122.59409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.86409375000001,"end":134.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.41909375,"end":156.68159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.68159375000002,"end":191.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.91721875000002,"end":161.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.75659375,"end":164.05596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.92846875,"end":170.19846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.25284375,"end":173.50596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.56409375,"end":181.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.85034375,"end":184.45784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.29721875,"end":186.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.66346875000002,"end":207.27284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.14346875,"end":198.68346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.25721875000002,"end":199.62846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.99971875,"end":200.47221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.76721875,"end":202.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.20596875,"end":203.88096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.91034375,"end":205.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.68221875,"end":207.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.55971875,"end":208.08284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.61034375000003,"end":231.65721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.35284375,"end":208.92659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.89159375000003,"end":217.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.03471875000002,"end":219.42284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.76034375,"end":220.19909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.96096875,"end":236.02784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.12909375,"end":236.26409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.31471875000003,"end":310.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.39909375,"end":290.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.71471875000003,"end":296.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.27096875,"end":300.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.22284375000004,"end":340.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.66971875,"end":351.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.94721875000005,"end":347.25096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.65534375000004,"end":352.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.39784375000005,"end":356.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.46471875000003,"end":358.33784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":358.65846875,"end":364.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.02034375000005,"end":370.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.26846875,"end":373.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":373.57596875,"end":378.79034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.02659375,"end":401.57159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.05159375000005,"end":381.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":388.99971875,"end":389.40471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":402.06096875000003,"end":408.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":408.32159375000003,"end":412.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":408.59159375,"end":408.84471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.27034375000005,"end":420.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":421.33221875000004,"end":421.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":421.85534375000003,"end":423.13784375},{"speaker":"S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GDP都已經去除掉了會更簡單更簡化所以我想那意願就會高那第三個就是說"},{"start":175.734,"end":187.399,"text":"其他他們考量的問題就是包括說夜間、偏鄉、緊急或其他的這些全部都有納入到我們的這個思考的範圍所以我想農會兩雙方一定會就這個的一個草案內容會"},{"start":192.081,"end":203.547,"text":"還戴大家現在目前所有的意見然後讓大家第一個有藥可以用第二個簡化方便性可及性甚至於特殊案例也有管道可以解決這樣的一個用藥的問題我們往這個方向來"},{"start":208.67,"end":231,"text":"我希望就是說這個風波這樣過去之後已經註銷那未來如果新的辦法出來我覺得應該是大家充分的溝通然後大家是可以接受的一個方式來上路啦會會會會遵守那署長另外一個問題除了這個之外我想請教就是說我們現在彰化田委地區"},{"start":232.06,"end":250.659,"text":"就是說花卉生產花卉生產很多的地方那在前陣子就是我們有一些花農有特別提到就是有一些花卉是從國外進來花卉從國外進來那造成這個地方的這個產業的一個衝擊可能有的是銷價競爭就有一些衝擊"},{"start":256.184,"end":265.195,"text":"那我想請教署長的部分就是說不論是我們的花卉或者是我們的這個農產品好像前陣子的那個蒜頭那要讓國外的這個農產品進來其實一方面"},{"start":272.543,"end":289.114,"text":"花農他們的建議就是說在檢疫方面是不是可以能夠這個我們這個房間署這邊能夠針對要進來的這些農產品譬如說蒜頭他如果是有帶土的話那你們就不能那麼輕易讓他進來嗎"},{"start":291.935,"end":309.7,"text":"那如果花卉的話如果它有某一種的蟲或者是菌那是不是也要嚴格的把關我想請教署長針對這一部分因為是很多農民在做一些反應因為畢竟國外的這些農產品"},{"start":311.72,"end":340,"text":"進來其實應該都是比國內的還便宜他們才會有利可圖那這些業者才會想要從國外進來那如果像這樣子的話國內的這個農產品他已經足夠供國內使用那是不是可以在這個房檢的這個部分能夠嚴加的把關從農產品如果他是帶土那會危害我們台灣的這個本土的這個農產的話那是不是可以在這方面能夠再嚴加的把關"},{"start":341.219,"end":366.085,"text":"謝謝委員 其實只要根部進來 植株袋進來有土絕對是不行 是 一點都不行所以不管譬如像現在也有一些貿易是從日本進來大直的那個盆栽那個都要裸根就是土一點都不能帶來怕一些土壤性的一個病原菌會帶進來那另外就是說每一種的植物都有它經過風險評估也有我們制定在檢疫上要檢疫的"},{"start":369.646,"end":398.297,"text":"變蟲害象那第三個就是任何的一個這個邊境的一個檢疫的我們動植物的一個檢疫一定會對接到國際的相關的一個規範然後再制定我們國家比較注意的甲類啊乙類啊這樣的一個變蟲害去做守門員那第四個就是我們的標準一定一致也就是說我們有四個分數那四個分數不管你在哪一個的港口你進來的標準一定要一致"},{"start":399.397,"end":422.071,"text":"那至於說國際貿易來講當我們的檢疫的標準制定以後那開放了以後那這個就走的就是國際貿易那除非有些是關稅的綁住比如有一些配額那或者是關稅的等等這些那或者是有些在中間可能涉及到我們國際市"},{"start":423.565,"end":438.187,"text":"要跟制定了其他的相關的一個約制可能有這樣的一個考量但是在檢疫方面以這個條件制定了以後我們就依照這個規定嚴格去做執行不會有鬆動的情形"},{"start":439.369,"end":463.442,"text":"我當然希望就是說在這個檢疫這方面尤其是在港口港口或者是要進來我覺得就是說房檢署第一個就是要嚴格把關那也避免就是說台灣的這個農產品會因為我們在這個第一關這個沒有嚴加的把關然後可能有一些帶土帶菌進來然後造成我們這個地方的這個農產品的一個損失再來就是說"},{"start":468.824,"end":493.23,"text":"這個我剛剛講的這個花卉的部分其實就是說我們的這個花卉如果可以在我們這些貿易商如果要進來那他應該就是說有利可圖那如果說我們如果能夠再嚴加的來把關的話其實會讓這個貿易商也許他會覺得說那我就是直接再採購我們國內的這些花卉就好了"},{"start":493.61,"end":504.939,"text":"那不會從國外這樣子採購比較便宜的花卉進來我的意思是這樣子所以我希望就是說房間署在這方面應該一方面就是為了我們國內的農產品不要受到國外的菌或者是蟲的危害這個在第一關要嚴加的把關然後另外就是說在這個把關的過程當中有一些他們會覺得說那我要經過層層的關卡也許"},{"start":523.374,"end":542.528,"text":"很麻煩那我就直接採購我們國內的農產品所以我希望就是說從這個角度上面來看就是希望我們這個房檢署在這方面能夠替我們國內的這個花農也好或者是這些農民來做再進一步的一個來思考"},{"start":544.913,"end":568.589,"text":"最後一個補充就是跟委員報告就是說在邊境的一個檢疫方面其實我們是非常的嚴格那甚至有時候抽樣都已經加成去抽樣了那所以說我們也很害怕就是你鬆散了以後那有些病人帶進來以後那造成的浩劫真的是沒有辦法想像所以基本上來講只要是我們因斯檢疫的品項上來講"},{"start":569.589,"end":589.463,"text":"其實我們都這個標準都都制定在那而且是嚴格的去做執行但至於說是在貿易上的考量那可能就不是在檢疫以外做另外的一個調節機制等等這些可能是又另一個層次的一個考量了那我們當然就是希望就是說在房檢這個房檢署你們的這個職權上面能夠對於農產品的這個檢疫能夠"},{"start":596.588,"end":608.886,"text":"在更就是說在這方面能夠這個把關然後讓我們的這個農產品不會因為有帶菌或者是帶蟲然後進來危害我們的農產品好吧是好謝謝委員好謝謝謝謝黃秀邦委員的諮詢"}]}},{"id":"168596","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168596","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ec77822e2e6eae30d8ece0137110d288ea785098ebfecd5e98911b917ba40465ab69b334a180b4b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊曜","委員發言時間":"14:02:28 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項大概藥證的部分應該就有一萬張的藥證也就是說現在"},{"start":176.97,"end":195.271,"text":"動物醫院或獸醫師要用藥的應該可以得到滿足最大最大數最大數的一個滿足那假設說真的有緊急用藥或特殊性用藥的時候又有一個平台也就是說你可以透過這個平台來做申請那快速審核以後也可以讓你從國外進來"},{"start":197.749,"end":213.592,"text":"所以你能不能也大概講一下這個平台的審核是誰在審核像我提出申請然後我們有透過這個全聯會藥師的全聯會藥師全聯會獸醫師全聯會所以提出申請以後都會快速審核然後通過了以後就直接可以向國外來禁藥"},{"start":225.816,"end":236.868,"text":"因為正面表列最大的缺點就是用藥的彈性比較不足對不對就是因為因為只能夠在那是因為原來是144項只有216件所以相對是我們的701項"},{"start":241.292,"end":254.242,"text":"相對是比較少大概僅有20%表列的內容比較不足有時候比較會有問題因為人用藥這一塊的登記跟核准的已經有701項但你轉到動保用藥就是原來的法規上 辦法上那你轉到這裡只有144項所以你看到這個差了500多所以大家會緊張會焦慮也就是因為說缺口那麼大那是不是我平時想用的這個藥沒有辦法得到滿足"},{"start":268.973,"end":282.042,"text":"那現在就是已經把這個障礙排除了也就是701項直接可以讓我們公告為動保用藥所以它用藥已經得到最大的範圍的開放度所以署長這個還是要加強宣傳因為我剛剛講了嘛就是"},{"start":294.359,"end":310.253,"text":"寵物的數量越來越多那家人的焦慮在政策上可以的話就盡量滿足他們的因為政策拍板以後我們就全力全國開始宣講然後也會跟相關的團體來做溝通"},{"start":313.616,"end":327.107,"text":"政策大概什麼時候拍板應該這幾天如果說整個註銷公告那那完整程序的以後那大概就就相對性會提出另外一個新的辦法那假設我們雙農衛雙方那"},{"start":331.39,"end":356.076,"text":"也有共識 那也 政策也是往這個方向的時候我們就會把草案來跟全國所有的利害關係人來做溝通那如果大家在這個溝通的意見又聚攏改變不大 那我想這個要實施 要公告實施可能速度就會加快所以這個行政程序沒有辦法免除對 對 對 當然當然 就是我的意思就是說在政策推出以後"},{"start":358.998,"end":373.196,"text":"政策的宣導其實還是很重要我一直覺得執政團隊對於各方面的政策宣導其實是比較不足那這個當然原因不在於不全然是執政團隊的問題"},{"start":375.839,"end":390.74,"text":"因為現在就是資訊太過多元然後雜亂所以很難聚焦那我們可以做的還是要把它做好好不好委員可不可以讓我補充一點點"},{"start":392.389,"end":417.711,"text":"其實這個這個辦法是從104年啟動動保法的修正以後那您列的這個辦法那這個辦法因為會嫌公告是農未雙方那在這段時間104以後他也經過了104 112 117107 112等等有三次的預告時間對外對大眾的一個預告那從公布113年的2月26號公告以後"},{"start":418.832,"end":442.311,"text":"我們雖然大型的有15場對外的說明但我剛剛跟算了一下大四季其實這裡面的大大小小的溝通包括說明就50場了就從113年的2月26號到現在所以理論上不管工會或大型的地方的相關的團體理論上或多或少都有catch到這樣的資訊"},{"start":444.793,"end":462.121,"text":"現在是因為大家現在要施行了所以一些的問題集中的就反映出來那我覺得這可能跟時空背景有很大的改變那加上說現在的用藥的制度跟現在目前的推動的現在使用的方法跟將來被這個辦法約制住"},{"start":464.742,"end":478.256,"text":"有很多沒有辦法會受限制所以當然大家就會提出很多意見那也因為我們是很負責任所以針對這個辦法裡面那也有做整個大架構的修改那朝向一個"},{"start":479.978,"end":495.645,"text":"我們法規完備法那第二個內容裡面盡量符合現今的狀態那讓動物的生命權跟醫療權都可以獲得最大的保障然後也讓你的公藥或使用跟管理都能夠更加的完善大概是這樣子"},{"start":497.493,"end":514.088,"text":"那署長我還是再問一下就是說因為人類用藥有很多是必須要嚴格管制流向的對不對要不然可能造成譬如說濫用抗生素等等的問題那你們"},{"start":515.689,"end":531.584,"text":"那未來不論是藥局將藥品寄放到售醫院,或者是售醫院直接向藥商購買人用藥品,怎麼建立流向的管理機制?"},{"start":534.971,"end":555.783,"text":"這個衛福部門很關注的管制用藥對這個可能你們要跨部位去做是是是已經有共識就是針對一些管制的部份雙部會會去爐列出來以後那我覺得針對這一些受關注的這些的一個藥品的部分那當然他的管理的一個強度跟流向的城堡的一個那個強度跟頻度都會再加強"},{"start":557.344,"end":579.678,"text":"現在還沒有就是會在以未來我們的辦法跟執行上都會納入到裡面來做最大的評論跟管理制度上的加強一方面也要保障寵物的生命安全另外一方面當然相關的管制藥品應該怎麼跟"},{"start":581.109,"end":609.913,"text":"跟衛福部這邊做一個溝通不能說就在人的部分管制的結果非經濟動物的部分沒有因為人用藥畢竟他已經非常成熟的制度我們還是要借盡他們的我就是說因為衛福部這邊已經有一個很嚴格的把關的機制在所以你們可能要跟他們做一下會在一個行政院體系下我們會合作 同意合作"},{"start":610.273,"end":611.879,"text":"好 謝謝署長 謝謝主席謝謝委員謝謝楊浩偉的資訊"}]}},{"id":"168595","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168595","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ec77822e2e6eae32ba4e0dc5838c439354b0245b1feb43277f1ea19c72f00148406a17fcd3ca4bb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"11:19:54 - 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謝謝 謝謝委員的關心的確在學齡階段在體育課這個部分的業務目前的分工是在教育部那我們也知道在學生體育課上面因為他上面有一個課綱的一個限制他必須根據課綱來排課至於場地的部分 處於專項運動特別是競技運動類的設施運動部則無旁貸但是一般教育類的體育課類的設施目前的分工是由教育部來組長"},{"start":126.732,"end":127.793,"text":"我想原來在課綱裡頭就有體育的課程"},{"start":141.749,"end":162.851,"text":"那教部会陆续督导就是各校能够落实体育教学教学正常化体育课就避免被挪移这样那另外的话其实就是学校其实还是有很多社团活动是体育社团这是我国小端啦国中以后就没有了啦国中还是很少啦而且他只有一堂社团课啦"},{"start":163.872,"end":177.529,"text":"這是你們調查報告嗎還是有一些團體活動或是彈性的活動的事件那有多少是拿來做運動的呢這應該非常少吧我想你們要不要更清楚的去掌握現實的"},{"start":179.552,"end":204.35,"text":"因為我想不是只有這個調查包含我們去年也有發布一個台灣學生的身體活動量級跟全球兒童健康聯盟的指標我們只有到F級只有我們大概是怎麼等級呢跟印尼菲律賓差不多我們輸給日本跟韓國所以如果在我們的基礎的選手基層沒有做起來選手從哪裡來賽事怎麼辦我覺得這是一個很大的問題然後再來就是回到抱歉我們再回到次長"},{"start":206.291,"end":233.599,"text":"我們其實也有一些 抱歉就是關於女性這個研究裡面其實也有了解說在女性在青少年的時候她們遇到什麼樣子的問題那她們基本上就是有講到一些成就感很低但是為什麼成就感很低挫折很高這個我看不到質化的研究我看不到任何的質化研究我不曉得說運動部這邊有沒有做相關的質化去了解女性不管是學生也好或是運動員也好她們遇到的困境到底是什麼有沒有掌握"},{"start":233.999,"end":254.711,"text":"目前這方面的研究議題我個人是沒有掌握啦不過從我過去長時間在這個領域的觀察因為我們過去的發展是以技能學習運動技能學習為主要的內涵那對於一些平常沒有那麼在從事身體活動的特別是女生的學生他們會覺得沒有成就感"},{"start":255.131,"end":276.574,"text":"所以我們希望未來在這方面的發展是朝著從基本的能力而不是競技能力簡單來說好不好就是次長可不可以答應我一件事情就是我們去了解做質問的了解徹底的了解為什麼女性的女生學生也好還有運動員選手他們不願意持續的做這樣子的運動為什麼他們對於運動的參與度這麼低我們是不是可以來做這部分的了解"},{"start":277.134,"end":303.491,"text":"來瞭解他的障礙在哪裡第二個部分還有就是企業我剛剛也聽到企業有投資很多的運動賽事然後這個金額也是增加的但是我想知道到底有沒有投資在基層的訓練上面呢目前的數量以我們目前看到的其實還沒有很高這也是為什麼抱歉委員這也是為什麼我們在未來在計算假設他的贊助的金額跟那個捐贈的金額是往基層走他的計算的方式是百分之一百五十"},{"start":305.349,"end":332.25,"text":"但是我覺得有個實務面上的問題就是說這也是基層的軍運部告訴我的就是以FIFA來說他們的足球是要發展俱樂部的系統但日本也在2022年宣示了會從學校走向俱樂部可是他們要做俱樂部如果要去有這個主課場的時候他們要成豬場地的時候遇到一個租約的一些相關的規範變成是說他們沒有辦法做長期的租但沒有辦法長期的租他就不可能去做更多的投資"},{"start":333.191,"end":352.451,"text":"對不對所以這個部分是不是可以來協調呢那另外一個還有就是廢校的一些場地是不是也可以跟教育部來協調如何讓企業可以進場因為企業是想要進場的這部分因為今天時間有限那我們是不是約時間來繼續來討論有關於如何讓企業來投資基層運動的這件事情可以嗎是的我們一起來討論好謝謝謝謝張雅玲委員來市長先回座"}]}},{"id":"168594","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168594","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ec77822e2e6eae367e2a4a256b4cfb1354b0245b1feb43277f1ea19c72f0014046f014c7ab0ab8e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡春綢","委員發言時間":"11:14:16 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有請經濟次長還有運動部黃次長兩位次長好"},{"start":38.575,"end":41.996,"text":"運動部在成立之後運動產業就被視為我國未來運動發展的一個重要的資質之一那相較於歐盟、日本還有英美等先進國家運動產業的一個占比GDP比重普遍可以達"},{"start":62.225,"end":64.506,"text":"2%至2.6%的一個成長那台灣去年在1.3%的一個顯示呢仍然有一個成長的一個空間那在過去五年運動用品還有器材的製造及批發及零售業仍然是在支撐一個運動產業的一個經濟的一個火車頭剛剛我們也有很多委員都有提到"},{"start":90.911,"end":98.736,"text":"我們的自行車我們的高爾夫球的那個球技還有我們的運動跑步跑步機這都是我們打造我們台灣品牌的一個項目那總感覺呢我們對於這樣比較重的一個供應我們是發展的很好但是感覺在輕服務還有數位這個部分的結構好像有一點失衡請兩位次長做一個"},{"start":120.649,"end":145.868,"text":"還有分析好 那這個產業部分是不是我先來做補充一下就是說剛剛委員提到的這個部分確實是最近許多的這些運動的科技的這些這種產品也開始有很大幅的這個出現在市場上結合AI的或是結合許多這個平台運動健康管理的平台的這些業者"},{"start":146.488,"end":153.375,"text":"那其實他們都是軟硬整合的這個部分來提供給這個消費者來運用那這也是我們現在其實台灣的強項我們怎麼樣能夠把這些半導體也好或說我們的自動訊的這個產品能夠融入在這些包括不管是運動器材也好或是說我們的運動"},{"start":166.087,"end":186.125,"text":"管理或是健康促進的這些產品項目裡面來其實這個都是我們現在台灣的這個機會那我們現在許多的這些前瞻科技的這個研發的部分也是協助業界在投入這個部分所以這個產品的部分也在做一些數位轉型或是智慧化的這個開發的這個過程裡面"},{"start":190.769,"end":195.453,"text":"我知道我們這個軟體的部分我們當然在報告書裡面都有寫但是我們只有沒有看到產值產值有多少表示就是說我們沒有辦法把原發的東西能夠行銷出去"},{"start":211.228,"end":229.524,"text":"那我們希望就是說不只是在核銷補助的這個建位而已而是能夠把我們的產品像我們的硬體的部分能夠行銷到我們台灣或者是世界世界去這個是我們期待的再請問一下"},{"start":236.17,"end":239.432,"text":"國家運動產業發展中心 運動部下設立的行政法人負責推動運動產業調查 人才培育 還有市場的一個拓展該中心也有專責跨部會合作 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直轄市及縣市政府得市產業發展政策需要及財政狀況 停徵第一項第一款至第四款及第六款規定課稅項目的預留稅 其停徵應定名許是其限幣達成合理政策目的為限提經當地"},{"start":2110.791,"end":2138.601,"text":"政府地方立法機關通過並報財政部備查委員李昆城的人提案第一項修正內容同行政院新增第三項直轄市及縣市政府得失產業發展政策需要及財政狀況停徵第一項第一款至第四款規定課稅項目之預留稅其停徵應定名實施期限並以達成合理的政策目的為限提經當地民意機關通過並報財政部備查委員鍾嘉斌的人提案"},{"start":2139.861,"end":2167.347,"text":"第一項修正委娛樂稅就下列娛樂場所娛樂設施或娛樂活動所收票價或收費額達一定金額徵收之1.電影2.職業性歌唱、說書、舞蹈、馬戲、魔術、技藝表演及業種繪製各種表演3.戲劇、音樂演奏及非職業性歌唱、舞蹈等表演4.各種競技比賽5.舞廳或舞場6.高爾夫球場"},{"start":2168.147,"end":2188.455,"text":"其其他經財政部公報署提供娛樂場所娛樂設施或娛樂活動供應娛樂者增訂第三項第一項娛樂稅起徵之票價或收費金額由財政部定之增訂第四項直轄市及縣市政府得失產業發展政策需要及財政狀況停徵第一項第一款之第四款規定課稅項目之娛樂稅"},{"start":2189.595,"end":2211.306,"text":"提經當地民機關通過報財政部被查 其情爭因地民時事期限並已達成合理之政策目的違憲文、吳佩儀等人提案 內容同行政院文、李一錦等人提案 第一項修正與娛樂稅 修下列娛樂場所娛樂設施或娛樂活動首說票價或收費而徵收之一 舞廳 一 夜總會之各種表演 二 舞廳或舞場"},{"start":2212.846,"end":2235.408,"text":"3.其他經財政部公告署提供娛樂場所娛樂設施或娛樂活動功能娛樂者文羅美林等人提案內容同行正願委員李博義等人提案內容同行正願文王宏威等人提案第一項第三款修正為戲劇音樂演奏及非職演戲歌唱舞蹈口說演表演之喜劇等表演"},{"start":2237.045,"end":2255.016,"text":"第六款修正為高爾夫球場新增第七款其他經財政部公告署提供娛樂場所娛樂設施或娛樂活動中的娛樂者新增第三項直轄市及縣市政府的市財發展政策需要及財源裝潢提增第一項第一款至第四款規定課稅項目之娛樂稅提經直轄市及縣市議會通過報財政部備查"},{"start":2259.045,"end":2287.112,"text":"文徐富奎等人提案第一項修正娛樂稅就下列娛樂場所娛樂設施或娛樂活動所收票價或收費額徵收之一 舞廳或舞場二 夜總會址表演及其他提供娛樂設施功能娛樂者文陳秀寶等人提案第一項修正娛樂稅就下列娛樂場所娛樂設施或娛樂活動所收票價或收費額徵收之一 夜總會址各種表演二 舞廳或舞場三 其他提供娛樂設施功能娛樂者"},{"start":2289.913,"end":2303.488,"text":"文明台等人提案第一項修正委娛樂稅就下列娛樂場所娛樂設施或娛樂活動所收票價或收費而徵收之一 夜總會是各種表演二 舞廳或舞場三 其他提供娛樂設施供給娛樂者"},{"start":2307.816,"end":2330.327,"text":"文賴會員等人提案第一項修正為娛樂稅就下列娛樂場所、娛樂設施或娛樂活動所收票價或收費額增收之一職業性歌唱、說書、舞蹈、馬戲、魔術、記憶表演及一種或是各種表演、熱舞廳或舞場三、其他經財政部公告署提供娛樂場所、娛樂設施或娛樂活動功能娛樂者新增第三項"},{"start":2332.816,"end":2347.782,"text":"指向西域及縣市政府得釋產業發展政策需要及財政狀況等原因停徵第一項第一款第二款規定課稅項目之餘留稅其停徵應定名實施期限並達成合理政策目的違憲提經當地民意機關通過並報財政部備查"},{"start":2351.041,"end":2379.821,"text":"委員蔡宜瑜等人提案內容同行正願委員莊瑞雄等人提案第一項修正娛樂稅就夏日娛樂場所娛樂設施與娛樂活動或首收票價或收費額徵收之因夜總會之各種表演二五廳或五場三其他娛樂場所娛樂設施或娛樂活動直轄市或縣市政府認定具奢侈或政策節制必要者委員汪美惠等人提案第一項修正內容同行正願新增第三項直轄市及縣市政府得失產業發展政策需要及產生狀況"},{"start":2382.332,"end":2397.282,"text":"聽證第一項第一款至第四款與第七款規定課稅項目之餘的稅提經當地民意金官通過報財政部備查其聽證應定名實施期限並以達成合理責任目的為限無親民等人提案第一項修正內容同性甄願新增第三項"},{"start":2399.522,"end":2427.584,"text":"直轄市及縣市政府得釋產業發展政策需要及財政狀況提增第一項第一款至第四款規定課稅項目之餘的稅其提增應定名實施期限必達成合理的政策目的並報財政部備查穩吳思堯等人提案內容同行正願穩林思敏等人提案第一項修正內容同行正願新增第三項直轄市及縣市政府得釋產業發展政策需要民政需求及財政狀況"},{"start":2429.705,"end":2440.182,"text":"經當地民意機關通過後定名第一項第一款之第四款及第六款規定科學項目的娛樂稅之停徵期限並報財政部被查文成北娛樂人提案"},{"start":2441.857,"end":2458.831,"text":"第一項修正為娛樂稅、就下的娛樂場所、娛樂設施或娛樂活動所收票價或收費而增收之一、夜總會之各種表演二、舞廳或舞場三、提供娛樂設施、功能娛樂者、文藝用秀等人提案第一項第六款修正為高爾夫球場"},{"start":2460.686,"end":2486.387,"text":"新增第七款其他提供娛樂場所娛樂設施或娛樂活動功能娛樂者新增第三項直下市及縣市政府得知產業發展政策需要及產業狀況提增第一項各款規定課稅項目者娛樂稅提經當地民意機關通過報財政部備查問王世堅等人提案第一項修正為娛樂稅就下列娛樂場所娛樂設施或娛樂活動所收票價或收費而徵收之"},{"start":2487.708,"end":2505.822,"text":"1.業種或各種表演2.舞廳、舞舞場、3.高爾夫球場但因於尋得替代財源後或於中華民國115年1月1日起停徵只徵收4.其他提供娛樂設施或工人娛樂者文林、楚英等人提案第一項修正為"},{"start":2507.688,"end":2513.129,"text":"娛樂稅就下列娛樂場所、娛樂設施或娛樂活動所所票價或收費而徵收之1."},{"start":2513.129,"end":2514.29,"text":"夜總會各種表演2."},{"start":2514.29,"end":2515.75,"text":"舞廳或舞場3."},{"start":2515.75,"end":2528.053,"text":"高爾夫球場及其他提供娛樂設施功能娛樂者文林斯敏等人提案第一項修正為娛樂稅就下列娛樂場所、娛樂設施或娛樂活動所所票價或收費而徵收之1."},{"start":2528.053,"end":2529.473,"text":"夜總會各種表演2."},{"start":2529.473,"end":2530.873,"text":"舞廳或舞場3."},{"start":2530.873,"end":2531.614,"text":"其他提供娛樂設施功能娛樂者"},{"start":2534.264,"end":2561.412,"text":"文、吳立華等人提案內容同行政院委員賴石保等人提案第一項修正內容同行政院新增第三項第一項第一款至第四款規定課稅項目至餘留稅直轄市及縣市政府得失產業發展政策需要及財政狀況定名停徵實施期限並報財政部備查第四條文、徐欣穎等人提案凡合於下列"},{"start":2563.209,"end":2584.834,"text":"規定之一者免徵娛樂稅一教育文化公益慈善機關團體和與民法總則公益社團或財團之組織或其他關係法令經向主管機關登記之立案者所舉辦之各種娛樂其全部收入作為本事業之用者第一項第二款修正為"},{"start":2586.345,"end":2594.405,"text":"以全部收入減除必要開支外作為救災、政績、鬧軍及公益圈募用途之各種娛樂第三款修正為"},{"start":2597.229,"end":2624.631,"text":"機關團體公司事業或學校或其他組織對內舉辦的臨時新聞刊活動文顧不問等的提案第一項修正為凡合約下落規定之一者免徵娛樂稅依教育文化公益慈善機關團體和與民法總則公益社團或財團法人之組織或其他關係法令向主管機關登記或立案者所舉辦之各種娛樂其全部收入作為本事業之用者"},{"start":2626.175,"end":2651.186,"text":"二 以全部收入減除必要開支外作為救災或落軍之各種娛樂三 機關團體 公司事業或學校或其他組織對內舉辦之臨時性輪糠活動第五條行政院提案修正娛樂稅照所收票價或收費而徵收之因下列稅而計徵之一 電影最高不得超過百分之十五"},{"start":2653.024,"end":2666.521,"text":"2.職業性演唱、說書、舞蹈、馬戲、魔術、記憶表演及夜總會之各種表演最高不得超過15%3.戲劇、音樂演奏及非職業性歌唱、舞蹈等表演最高不得超過2%"},{"start":2668.979,"end":2697.092,"text":"四 各種技藝比賽最高不得超過50%五 舞廳或舞場最高不得超過50%六 高爾夫球場最高不得超過20%七 其他經財政部公告署提供娛樂場所娛樂設施或娛樂活動供的娛樂者最高不得超過25%文許信等提案修正偽娛樂稅照所收票價或收費額以下列稅率計增之"},{"start":2698.072,"end":2724.846,"text":"一 夜總會智各種表演 最高不得超過30%二 舞廳 舞舞場 最高不得超過100%文 郭益晴的人提案修正委娛樂稅照所收票價或收費額依夏日水旅集爭之一 夜總會智各種表演 最高不得超過15%舞廳 舞舞場 最高不得超過50%三 其他經財政部公告署提供娛樂場所 娛樂設施或娛樂活動中的娛樂者最高不得超過25%"},{"start":2727.692,"end":2749.322,"text":"問郭顧問等提案 修正委娛樂稅照所收票價或收費額 以下綠稅率計增之一 電影最高不得超過10%二 職業性 歌唱 說書 舞蹈 馬戲 魔術 記憶表演及夜總會之各種表演最高不得超過10%三 戲劇 音樂演奏及非職業性歌唱舞蹈等表演最高不得超過2%"},{"start":2751.491,"end":2775.327,"text":"四 各種競技比賽最高不得超過百分之五五 舞廳娛樂場最高不得超過百分之五十其他經財政部公告署提供娛樂場所娛樂設施或娛樂活動功能娛樂者最高不得超過百分之二十五 文理昆城等人提案修正為娛樂稅照所收票價或收費額一 下綠稅額及增資一 電影最高不得超過百分之二十二"},{"start":2776.881,"end":2805.933,"text":"職業性歌唱、碩書、舞蹈、馬戲、羅書、記憶表演及夜總會之各種表演最高不得超過百分之二十三、戲劇、音樂演奏及非職業性歌唱、舞蹈等表演最高不得超過百分之五四、各種記憶比賽最高不得超過百分之五五、舞廳落場最高不得超過百分之五十六、高爾夫球場最高不得超過百分之二十七、其他經財政部公告署提供娛樂場所、娛樂設施或娛樂活動中的遊樂者最高不得超過百分之二十五"},{"start":2806.997,"end":2817.041,"text":"委員中嘉賓等人提案修正娛樂稅照走收票價或收費額依下律稅率計增資依電影最高不得超過30%本國原片最高不得超過15%"},{"start":2820.017,"end":2832.362,"text":"2.職業性歌唱、說書、舞蹈、馬戲、魔術、記憶表演及業種或是各種表演最高不得超過15%3.戲劇、音樂、演奏及非職業性歌唱、舞蹈等表演最高不得超過1%、2%4.各種記憶競賽最高不得超過5%"},{"start":2837.985,"end":2849.816,"text":"五 舞廳 舞舞場最高不得超過50%六 高爾夫球場最高不得超過20%七 其他經財政部公告署提供娛樂場所娛樂設施或娛樂活動功能娛樂者最高不得超過50%"},{"start":2852.071,"end":2873.121,"text":"委員吳佩儀等人提案 內容同行政院委員李怡瑾等人提案 修正委娛樂稅照著收票價或收費額 依效率稅理與計政之一 夜總會之各種表演 最高不得超過15%二 舞廳 舞舞場 最高不得超過50%三 其他經財政部公告署提供娛樂場所 娛樂設施或娛樂活動中的娛樂者 最高不得超過25%"},{"start":2876.085,"end":2897.537,"text":"修正委娛樂稅照所收票價或收費額依效率稅率計增資1.電影 最高不得超過15%2.職業性歌唱 說書 舞蹈 馬戲 魔術 記憶表演及夜總會之各種表演 最高不得超過15%3.戲劇 音樂演奏 非職業性歌唱 舞蹈等表演 最高不得超過2%"},{"start":2899.318,"end":2924.597,"text":"四 各種技藝比賽最高不得超過百分之二五 舞廳舞舞場最高不得超過百分之五十六 高爾夫球場最高不得超過百分之二十七 其他經財政部公告署提供娛樂場所 娛樂設施 顧娛樂活動功能娛樂者最高不得超過百分之二十五文李博弈等人提案修正為娛樂稅照所收票價或收費額依下律稅率計正之一"},{"start":2926.508,"end":2952.621,"text":"電影最高不得超過15%二、職業性歌唱、說書、舞蹈、馬戲、魔術、記憶表演及各種表演最高不得超過15%三、戲劇、音樂演奏及非職業性歌唱、舞蹈等表演最高不得超過2%四、各種記憶比賽最高不得超過3%五、舞廳舞舞場最高不得超過50%六、高爾夫球場最高不得超過20%"},{"start":2955.229,"end":2982.624,"text":"其他經財政部公告署提供娛樂場所娛樂實施或娛樂活動功能娛樂者最高不得超過百分之二十五文徐富奎等人提案修正委娛樂稅照所收票價或收費以下率稅率計增之一五廳或五場最高不得超過百分之一百二夜總會之各種表演最高不得超過百分之三十三其他提供娛樂場所功能娛樂者最高不得超過百分之五十"},{"start":2983.991,"end":2996.185,"text":"文成秀堡等人提案修正為娛樂稅照所收票價或收費額 因效率稅率激增之一 夜總會之各種表演最高不得超過30%二 舞廳舞舞場最高不得超過100%三 其他提供娛樂設施供給娛樂者最高不得超過50%"},{"start":3003.957,"end":3030.447,"text":"文、盧明采等人提案修正為娛樂稅照所收票價或收費額 因效率稅率激增之一 夜總會智各種表演最高不得超過30%二 舞廳臥掌最高不得超過100%三 其他提供娛樂設施 功能娛樂者最高不得超過50%文、蔡其昌等人提案修正為娛樂稅照所收票價或收費額 因效率稅率激增之一 夜總會智各種表演最高不得超過30%"},{"start":3033.386,"end":3056.691,"text":"2.五廳屋長最高不得超過100%3.其他娛樂場所娛樂設施或娛樂活動經直轄市及縣市政府認定具奢侈或政策節制之必要者其稅率由直轄市及縣市政府定之文案會員等提案修正為娛樂稅"},{"start":3062.73,"end":3069.936,"text":"1.職業性歌唱、說書、舞蹈、馬戲、魔術、記憶表演及夜總會之各種表演,最高不得超過百分之十2."},{"start":3069.936,"end":3073.3,"text":"舞廳、舞舞場,最高不得超過百分之五十3."},{"start":3073.3,"end":3078.825,"text":"其他經財政公告署提供娛樂場所、娛樂設施或娛樂活動功能娛樂者,最高不得超過百分之十4."},{"start":3078.825,"end":3080.386,"text":"文、菜語等提案內容通信證願"},{"start":3086.139,"end":3112.799,"text":"委員莊瑞雄等人提案修正為娛樂稅照所收票價或收費額依效率稅率計增之一 夜總或是各種表演最高不得超過百分之三十二 舞廳舞舞場最高不得超過百分之一百三 其他娛樂場所娛樂設施或娛樂活動直轄市及縣市政府認定具奢侈或政策節制之必要者其稅率由直轄市及縣市政府定之委員王美惠等人提案內容同行正願"},{"start":3114.332,"end":3142.611,"text":"文無親民等人提案修正委娛樂稅 照守收票價或收費而依下率稅率計增資1.電影最高不得超過20%2.職業性歌唱 說書 舞蹈 馬戲 魔術 技藝表演及業種或是各種表演最高不得超過20%3.戲劇 音樂演奏及非職業性歌唱 舞蹈等表演最高不得超過5%4.各種技藝比賽最高不得超過5%5.舞蹈 舞廳或舞場最高不得超過50%"},{"start":3145.033,"end":3164.026,"text":"6.高爾夫球場最高不得超過20%7.其他經財政部公告署提供娛樂場所娛樂設施或娛樂活動中的娛樂者最高不得超過25%5.吳世耀等人提案內容同行證願5.林思敏等人提案修正了娛樂稅照所收票價或收費額以效率稅率計正之1.最高不得超過10%"},{"start":3166.377,"end":3172.767,"text":"本國語言片最高不得超過5%二 職業性歌唱 說術 舞蹈 馬戲 魔術 記憶表演最高不得超過10%三 夜總或是各種表演最高不得超過20%"},{"start":3179.897,"end":3184.501,"text":"4.戲劇 音樂演奏棋 非職演戲 歌唱 舞蹈等表演 最高不得超過2%5."},{"start":3184.501,"end":3186.984,"text":"各種技藝比賽 最高不得超過5%6."},{"start":3186.984,"end":3191.508,"text":"舞廳 落後舞場 最高不得超過50%7."},{"start":3191.508,"end":3194.672,"text":"高爾夫球場 最高不得超過15%8."},{"start":3194.672,"end":3199.737,"text":"其他近財政部公告署提供娛樂場所 娛樂設施 或娛樂活動 功能娛樂者 最高不得超過25%"},{"start":3202.202,"end":3203.362,"text":"3.其他提供娛樂設施供給娛樂者最高不得超過25%"},{"start":3218.527,"end":3234.769,"text":"委員 李映秀等提案 序文修正為 娛樂稅照著售票價或售費而依下於稅率計增之第六款修正為 高爾夫球場最高不得超過百分之二十其新增第七款 其他提供娛樂場所 娛樂盛室或娛樂活動功能娛樂者最高不得超過百分之五十"},{"start":3236.338,"end":3241.601,"text":"5.往事間的人提案修正我娛樂稅 遭受收票價或收費額以下率稅率激增之1."},{"start":3241.601,"end":3244.623,"text":"夜總會之各種表演最高不得超過30%5."},{"start":3244.623,"end":3247.484,"text":"舞廳或舞場最高不得超過100%3."},{"start":3247.484,"end":3250.386,"text":"高爾夫球場最高不得超過20%4."},{"start":3250.386,"end":3255.209,"text":"其他提供娛樂設施功能娛樂者最高不得超過50%5."},{"start":3255.209,"end":3258.771,"text":"離主營的人提案修正我娛樂稅 遭受收票價或收費額以下率稅率激增之"},{"start":3259.611,"end":3271.037,"text":"一 夜總會之各種表演最高不得超過30%二 舞廳舞舞場最高不得超過100%三 高爾夫球場最高不得超過20%其他提供娛樂場所或娛樂設施功能娛樂者最高不得超過50%"},{"start":3273.346,"end":3302.358,"text":"維尼斯敏等提案修正為娛樂稅 照守售票價或收費額以效率稅率計增資一 夜總或是各種表演最高不得超過百分之三十二 舞廳過場最高不得超過百分之一百三 其他提供娛樂場所供人娛樂者最高不得超過百分之五十五 文武麗華等提案內容同行正願五 文賴思寶等提案修正為娛樂稅 照守售票價或收費額以效率稅率計增資一 電影最高不得超過百分之十本國語言片最高不得超過百分之五"},{"start":3303.419,"end":3308.167,"text":"2.職業性歌唱、說書、舞蹈、馬戲、魔術、記憶表演及業種或是各種表演,最高不得超過10%"},{"start":3310.91,"end":3317.712,"text":"3.戲劇音樂演奏及非職演戲歌唱舞蹈等表演最高不得超過百分之二各種技藝比賽最高不得超過百分之五5."},{"start":3317.712,"end":3321.033,"text":"舞廳舞舞場最高不得超過百分之五十6."},{"start":3321.033,"end":3324.454,"text":"高爾夫球場最高不得超過百分之二十7."},{"start":3324.454,"end":3336.997,"text":"其他基因財政報告署提供娛樂場所娛樂設施或娛樂活動功能娛樂者最高不得超過百分之三十第六條行政院提案修正委直轄四級縣市政府得釋敵方"},{"start":3338.863,"end":3367.676,"text":"實施情形依前項規定稅率範圍內分別規定餘留稅徵收稅率提經當地民意機關通過報成這不被查問郭玉琴等人提案問李坤正等人提案問莊嘉斌等人提案問林錦人等人提案問文美女等人提案問李柏宇等人提案問賴慧如等人提案問蔡宇宙等人提案問王美惠等人提案問吳清明等人提案問吳思淼等人提案問陳佩玉等人提案問李燕修等人提案均同行政院"},{"start":3368.596,"end":3389.462,"text":"文國國務院等人提案修正為直轄市及縣市政府得釋地方實施清醒在前條規定稅率範圍內分別規定餘額稅徵收率提經地方立法機關通過報財政部被核備文吳培義等人提案修正為直轄市及縣市政府得釋地方實施清醒在前條規定稅率範圍內分別規定餘額稅徵收率提經當地民意機關通過報請財政部被查"},{"start":3397.344,"end":3415.677,"text":"文齊昌等天修正為直轄市及縣市政府得視地方實施情形及清條規定逾六歲徵收率或予以停政提經直轄市及縣市民意金融通貨報請財貨承轉財政部核備文莊瑞雄等天修正為直轄市及縣市政府"},{"start":3417.132,"end":3427.966,"text":"則是地方實施清醒在前條規定稅率範圍內規定餘落稅徵收率或予以停徵提經直轄市及縣市民意機關通過報財政部備查"},{"start":3430.014,"end":3456.942,"text":"委員林思敏等人提案修正為直轄市及縣市政府得釋地方實施情形在前條規定稅率範圍內分別規定餘熱稅徵收率提經當地民意金方通過後報財政部備查委員吳立華等人提案修正為直轄市及縣市政府得釋地方實施情形在前條規定稅率範圍內分別規定餘熱稅徵收率提經當地民意金方通過報請或承轉財政部備查第八條"},{"start":3458.646,"end":3469.974,"text":"委員許新穎等提案廢除那刪除第九條委員許新穎等提案刪除現行條文第二項第十條"},{"start":3471.795,"end":3482.324,"text":"行政院提案第二項修正為前項娛樂票由主管機關核驗後使用但臨時舉辦之娛樂活動受票者應由負責人於舉辦活動前將票編號、標明價格申請主管機關"},{"start":3489.049,"end":3501.924,"text":"驗印並報妥並辦妥納稅保證手續如期報繳代徵稅額文郭玉琴等人提案文李昆城等人提案文宗嘉兵等人提案文林瑩等人提案"},{"start":3503.439,"end":3520.019,"text":"羅美玲李博義賴慧芸蔡宇莊瑞雄王美惠吳齊銘吳思堯林思敏陳佩玉李燕秀均同行政院"},{"start":3521.997,"end":3548.899,"text":"委員李佩儀等提案第二項修正為前項娛樂票由主管機關統一印製編號核驗後按照公本費發售各娛樂業使用但臨時舉辦之娛樂活動售票者應由負責人於舉辦前將票編號標明價格申請主管機關驗印並辦妥納稅保證手續如期報繳代徵稅額委員賴世寶等提案第二項修正為"},{"start":3550.325,"end":3577.38,"text":"前項娛樂票由主管機關驗核後使用但臨時舉辦之娛樂活動售票者應由負責於舉辦前將票編號標明價格申請主管機關驗印並辦妥納稅保證手續如期報繳代徵稅額第十三條文許新穎等人提案刪除第十七條行政院修正為娛樂稅徵收系者"},{"start":3581.912,"end":3585.57,"text":"由直轄市及縣市政府依本法訂定報財政部備查"},{"start":3588.195,"end":3615.818,"text":"郭益勤李坤澄莊嘉斌吳佩儀李儀錦羅美玲李柏惟蔡宇王美惠吳清明吳思耀林世明陳佩瑜李燕秀均同行政院賴慧如修正維娛樂稅徵收細則由直轄市及縣市政府依本法訂定送財政部備查"},{"start":3618.431,"end":3631.889,"text":"劉淑斌委員等人所提修正動議第二條第一項修正為娛樂稅就下列娛樂場所娛樂設施或娛樂活動所收票交貨收費而徵收之一五廳或五場"},{"start":3633.491,"end":3654.18,"text":"高爾夫球場三其他經財政部公告署提供娛樂場所娛樂設施或娛樂活動功能娛樂者增訂第三項直轄市及縣市政府得市產業發展政策需要及財政狀況停徵第一項低緩制第三項規定課稅項目之娛樂稅停經當地民意計畫通過報財政部備查其停徵應定名實施期限"},{"start":3655.32,"end":3681.469,"text":"並以達成合理的政策目的為限第五項 修正娛樂稅照所收票價或收費額依效率稅率計增資一 舞廳舞舞場最高不得超過50%二 高爾夫球場最高不得超過10%三 其他經財務公告署提供娛樂場所娛樂設施或娛樂活動功能娛樂者最高不得超過25%第六條 第十條 第十七條修正內容均同行政院宣讀完畢"},{"start":3686.405,"end":3694.137,"text":"先確定上次會議的意思路對上次會議的意思路有沒有意見有沒有意見沒有意見的話就確認現在開始寫商"},{"start":3789.963,"end":3797.149,"text":"來 現在開始第二條 財政部跟各個版本之間的差異各位有什麼意見來 郭國榮委員先謝謝主席我想這個漁業社會個人基本態度就是要廢除"},{"start":3817.918,"end":3841.329,"text":"那廢除的理由呢就是呢這個財政部一直把這個政當修行當成特種營業在管它不但欠缺這個理論基礎也違反了憲法的一個平等原則從這個財政面來看的話過往財政部都強調說地方政府有意見有意見因為地方財源的問題問題又怎麼樣但是事實上呢地方政府的總收入這一兆275億當中餘熱稅是佔22.5億不過是佔千分之二"},{"start":3849.193,"end":3873.754,"text":"財發法修正之後15年度的地方的統籌款的分配增加了4165億沒有新增業務喔完全可以彌補這20幾億的缺口所以財政的理由已經不存在了更何況我們回顧一下早期這個娛樂稅是在民國31年的時候因為要勤儉抗戰所以立法的用意是欲進於真"},{"start":3874.975,"end":3901.683,"text":"而且在歷次的這個委員會當中立法院甚至在96年5月4號的時候立法院三讀通過娛樂稅法修正還做出附帶決議娛樂稅因為一年內全面廢除這是本院的附帶決議請財政部提出補充地方財源支出配套辦法其實現在不用提出來啦現在已經增加了4165億啦何必呢所以原文就在這邊啦"},{"start":3903.462,"end":3929.552,"text":"那我簡單的講其實這個娛樂稅看起來這個稅率看起來是15%地方呢都是這0.5到2.5之間還在對電影磕娛樂稅我們左手邊在發文化幣那右手邊呢在磕稅左手邊呢在推動演唱會右手邊又在磕稅左手邊呢在推動這個體育競技右手邊呢就又對打壓中華職棒這是什麼理由"},{"start":3931.062,"end":3957.521,"text":"這不是很矛盾嗎所以本席堅決主張這餘熱稅應該廢除好 林卓毅委員等一下再換羅書斌委員主席還有我們朝野的委員以及我們今天各部會的代表其實餘熱稅法它事實上我們在討論是從上一屆就已經開始了那麼始終因為屆期不連續所以我們這一屆又提出來在上一屆的時候我就已經提出版本"},{"start":3957.941,"end":3972.347,"text":"坦白說我非常認同剛剛郭國榮委員的講法只是我當然知道一個稅法的修正要一步一步來那麼我的核心提案非常的單純就是希望這一部法律能夠更貼近現在當今社會的一個狀況我認為現在的遺樂稅當中所刻的項目已經明顯的不合時宜尤其像是電影"},{"start":3978.61,"end":3996.153,"text":"藝文表演 音樂表演跟競技比賽等等在今天早就已經不是少數人的奢侈消費了而且是普及大眾的文化跟體育活動甚至於是政府長期鼓勵發展的重要領域剛剛郭國維也提到嘛政府一手在補助"},{"start":3997.074,"end":4019.957,"text":"但是另外一手我們跟民眾磕水這種感覺就是我補助給你所以我不甘願我又要磕回來嗎這樣的邏輯充滿了矛盾性那麼今天等一下文化部或是相關的部會有在這裡我認為其實你們的意見上面應該好好的站在你們主管機關的態度去指出娛樂稅到底有哪些荒謬跟矛盾的地方"},{"start":4020.598,"end":4043.132,"text":"那麼首先我修改的當然是第二條跟第五條喔首先當然從第二條裡面去討論哪一些應該留下來那麼當然我提的版本裡面你要一次完全刪除或消失是不可能的因為還會面臨了地方政府的反彈所以我認為應該從第二條裡面去討論出哪一些我們必要拿掉"},{"start":4043.772,"end":4053.701,"text":"那麼同時我要提到另外一個重要的觀念就是我們現在刻的是一種實體上你看到的娛樂言下之意就是實體的電影欣賞實體的體育的競賽的門票"},{"start":4060.026,"end":4081.738,"text":"但是我們知道現在還有很多是虛擬的娛樂如果說你沒有考慮到這一點的話那變成是我做實體的我要瞌睡那麼我們在虛擬世界的娛樂是不是就不用這個都是在定義上我認為未來我們要考量到這一部法規是不是符合現今所需求的所以說我認為本席認為從第二條我們是不是應該就就"},{"start":4087.019,"end":4103.471,"text":"實際的藝文展演的鼓勵或者是這個所謂的競技比賽的部分先去討論是不是就先把它剔除出來因為我相信這個都已經是大眾文化其實大家都會去參與的我再一次提醒這是1942年也就是民國73年"},{"start":4111.558,"end":4121.788,"text":"1942年民國31年也就是84年前的法規如果我們還不修而且不完成修法真的會跟不上這個時代的演變"},{"start":4122.868,"end":4127.49,"text":"今天娛樂稅法的修訂的確反映到是目前是非常不合時宜的因為這是民國31年的法規"},{"start":4145.478,"end":4169.774,"text":"那現在最重要的是包括行政院的這個版本當中還保留的在一到四項當中再包括電影這些戲劇各種競技比賽跟現在目前的這些一到四項都已經是變成說我們平常的藝文活動跟體育活動的一個日常而且在這邊的奢侈稅這邊它應該有一些奢侈稅的意義在所以像本黨的版本當中在就有因應到的是"},{"start":4174.618,"end":4195.771,"text":"就是把前面的醫藥事項呢把它刪除呢 增加的是說可能還有真的包括是在類似像舞廳啊 舞場啦還有高爾夫球場這邊還有第三個也加入了像秦鎮月所說的有些實際上面的公告的這種娛樂場所不如說是有些是KTV啦 歌唱夜啦 禮容院啦 夜店這些部分呢它的確是"},{"start":4196.872,"end":4216.547,"text":"跟的是因為是有些這樣子的奢侈的一個不是一般的民眾的長期的這個餘額所以我們本身就把這個部分讓財政部門去做公告等等所以在這邊呢再一個我們認為是說呢為什麼還要保留保留的意思是在於說因為這還涉及到的是一個地方稅那地方稅裡面呢如果因為我們剛剛在第二條的"},{"start":4222.931,"end":4243.882,"text":"最後一項的時候呢我們把它加入到說如果是其實我們保留的是這個一二還是要新增的第三項這當中第三款的部分呢都是因應的要說這還是有地方稅的一個就是它是性質是地方稅因此就是說保留說如果它真的需求到說地方它還是需要的話呢它還是可以"},{"start":4244.242,"end":4260.037,"text":"留著 但是如果他覺得不需要的話就可以停政也是說鼓勵他們所認為 例如說包括我們所認為的高爾夫球的這樣子一個球場或是練習場的確的都是有一些包括運動項目的一個意涵在所以等一下也可能要請包括的是這次的文化報跟"},{"start":4261.678,"end":4267.98,"text":"運動部這邊要就是說為什麼運動為什麼這次的財政部還提出來保留的是一到四項的部分涉及到你們部會裡面的這個有些運動跟藝文活動等等的促進上面兩部會的一個看法是什麼那本黨的這個新的修正版本當中呢也提到了說包括第五條的一個修訂修訂當中呢指出的是說舞廳啊舞場這部分就是維持的這個5%"},{"start":4286.924,"end":4290.966,"text":"我們先處理第二條吧我們剛剛前面的委員已經有講過的東西我們拜託我們的委員盡量不用重複來 請李坤城委員來這樣壓力很大"},{"start":4303.579,"end":4317.257,"text":"謝謝主席這個剛好我們今天有這一個咖啡咖啡上面是周子瑜周子瑜是那個TWICE對不對那我們要聽這個周子瑜TWICE的這個演唱會要可以睡"},{"start":4318.538,"end":4329.783,"text":"但是如果在家裡利用語音的串流平台聽演唱會 不用課稅所以剛剛大家提過 娛樂稅是針對戲院 歌廳這是過去的時代現在很多的娛樂都是串流 電競 數位平台所以如果我們只有課實體 沒有去課數位的稅其實也不公平"},{"start":4342.808,"end":4362.344,"text":"但是我不是說要去課這個數位的稅我是認為說這長期以後這個娛樂稅其實應該是要廢除的因為現在娛樂的這個這個發展的情況非常的多元那我們現在都只有針對這個實體的這個你看得到的你有去參加的電影 唱歌等等之類的"},{"start":4363.104,"end":4381.64,"text":"你有課稅但是現在其實我要強調的是我們現在的語音平台、線上遊戲、電競等等其實都已經算是我們日常的娛樂了所以我是認為說雖然我有提案但是我認為就長期來講娛樂稅其實應該還是要廢除的娛樂稅長期還是要廢除的"},{"start":4386.204,"end":4391.371,"text":"然後呢 併入一般的這個消費稅的這個體系然後地方呢 地方如果認為說這個有些縣市認為說這個漁業稅對於這個地方稅來講很重要那就由地方自主來做處理那其實這個財務法修完之後"},{"start":4401.425,"end":4417.485,"text":"地方的財稅也增加很多我覺得這一塊中央不用去地方來擔心所以我是認為今天雖然休大家可能還是針對這個不論是我們自己園的版本或是院版來討論但是我認為中長期娛樂稅應該還是要廢除的謝謝"},{"start":4420.331,"end":4441.91,"text":"來 請賴慧雯委員 賴慧雯委員發言之後林思敏林思敏之後徐旭旭 王世堅謝謝主席 不贅字我的版本就是我主張直接刪除藝文提議項目全國統一免徵那我也呼應就是那個郭國文跟那個楚英委員講的那質疑就是說"},{"start":4444.392,"end":4450.658,"text":"我也反對就是一手補助一手課稅那從1942年的華麗到現在事實上這個真的是應該積極的討論那應該把它免除掉了謝謝來 請林思敏委員發言"},{"start":4467.528,"end":4488.321,"text":"謝謝主席我想首先本席先就我有先後兩次提案但是我今日審查我是以第二次的提案這一個案子為主我想我也贊成剛才崑禎講的其實我們現行的娛樂稅法所規定的客徵的場所設施或者活動"},{"start":4489.281,"end":4510.357,"text":"早就已經是我們民眾日常娛樂的休閒項目了並非全然都是奢侈或者是費用高的活動像高爾夫球的運動現在等於說是全民都在打高爾夫那麼監察院也在2004年對其被列為客徵的對象向財政部提出糾正"},{"start":4511.238,"end":4523.824,"text":"另外我們的文化藝術講座及促進條例中也有將含包含電影、音樂、視覺藝術與表演藝術等多項帶有娛樂與文化性質的活動列為可申請減免娛樂稅的講座與推廣對象"},{"start":4527.566,"end":4544.445,"text":"因此我認為為了兼顧地方財政及民眾的需求那麼我所提出的娛樂稅法部分修正條文草案我是建議由執行市及縣市政府可依當地的產業發展政策需求民眾需求及財政狀況在經過當地民意機關通過後"},{"start":4547.848,"end":4558.716,"text":"自行來擬電需要課真的項目及細則這樣的一個彈性的一個做法這是我的一個修法的大概的一個內容以上 謝謝好 謝謝 再來請徐信英委員"},{"start":4560.748,"end":4574.786,"text":"好 謝謝主席 各位委員同仁以及在場的官員本席發言大概兩個部分第一個先簡單的針對這次的修法一個綜合的一個表達一個論述第二個就是會針對我們現在進入第二條的立場"},{"start":4578.51,"end":4605.149,"text":"那首先我想前面委員所講的本席就不贅述但也非常的認同就是我們這個政府不能一邊編列大量的預算鼓勵產業發展另一邊又用過去的思維來課稅這個不是財政的穩健是典型的政策失序那再來呢本席要針對就是說因為我來自新竹縣"},{"start":4606.05,"end":4632.068,"text":"那營業稅入全國排名前十名的鄉鎮裡面新竹縣就佔了四個所以各鄉鎮市呢有我想全國有很多鄉鎮市也長期高度仰賴娛樂稅作為重要的稅入來源所以這一次本席修法除了廢除一些已經不合時宜的之外我們也提出我們中央政府跟地方呢共同來承擔這個轉型的責任"},{"start":4634.71,"end":4661.399,"text":"也就是說中央政府能夠針對地方可能減少的財源提出這個合理的補強機制所以我們希望是中央地方共同來承擔而不是把改革的壓力還有稅損的苦果全數轉嫁給地方最基層的鄉鎮市去承擔所以改革娛樂稅我想是時代的趨勢那我們希望中央的配套補強必須同步到位"},{"start":4662.199,"end":4683.17,"text":"那再來就是我們針對今天現在進入的第二條本席也是刪除不合理的課稅標的但是我們僅保留夜總會還有舞廳舞場讓稅制回歸合理能夠真正的促進國內藝文與體育產業的發展以上是我的發言 謝謝謝謝 再來請王世堅委員發言"},{"start":4688.847,"end":4704.475,"text":"主席各位同仁我跟剛才發言的幾位委員同樣我們都認為其實娛樂稅應該整個廢除掉因為時代意義已經不一樣了過去因為欲進於真"},{"start":4705.436,"end":4732.29,"text":"過去希望我們全體國民隨時都保持警覺隨時要反攻大陸 要整個帶蛋所以看電影啦 或者做其他藝文活動都是被禁止的那時代的背景完全不一樣了我們現在不但看電影是小確幸偶爾聽場演唱會 參加藝文活動這還都是我們政府所鼓勵的"},{"start":4733.206,"end":4751.939,"text":"那我要講我提案的第二條這第二條裡面我跟大家有一點不同的就是針對高爾夫球高爾夫球不但也已經不算奢侈了幾乎已經是全民運動了不打緊他還被列入奧運的項目"},{"start":4754.574,"end":4781.645,"text":"已經是全世界大家公認共同的運動項目結果在我們的國家竟然還被列為是娛樂而且要瞌睡那當然有一種說法就是說那高爾夫球佔據那麼多的國領綠地會破壞這些山林的開發等等這我們同意那這樣子那應該就把針對高爾夫球"},{"start":4783.345,"end":4803.817,"text":"娛樂稅的部分把它取消對它該課的綠色稅制比方說它對環境的影響那我們現在有環境這方面的稅制再去課它這個部分的稅才對所以我的提案是認為說如果還不能決定清楚是不是我們就115年就把115年1月1號開始停徵"},{"start":4807.839,"end":4832.596,"text":"停車之後讓財政部積極的去針對環境稅制針對高爾夫球應該負擔什麼樣的環境責任再去跟他磕稅那整體的娛樂稅其實我們去年的稅收三兆七千九百億去年是整個娛樂稅這幾十年來說最好的也才收二十二億"},{"start":4834.144,"end":4862.506,"text":"那這22億佔整體總稅收千分之0.6那財政部當初反對我們每一位委員針對娛樂稅去個別項目或者全體項目認為應該減免的時候你們都說讓我們去找替代裁員替代裁員現在我們整體的稅收高到三億七千九七千"},{"start":4863.556,"end":4884.534,"text":"九百億那還要什麼替代裁員嗎還要什麼替代裁員嗎所以我也同意我們後面發言有一位徐欣穎委員她剛剛讓我們大家簽的就是說如果從娛樂稅收這邊因為停徵部分或者全體停徵之後那麼"},{"start":4885.915,"end":4905.391,"text":"所以說影響到的是地方政府那地方政府在這一部分所影響到的部分是不是應該財政部我們中央來補貼他們因為畢竟地方財政並沒有我們中央這麼充裕這是我的看法 謝謝再來請黃杰委員發言"},{"start":4909.329,"end":4934.319,"text":"好謝謝主席那我的因為其實我本來有一個版本只是我的版本確實是比較中長期的規劃我是認為說娛樂稅法其實真的是不合時宜那這個從當初為了提高這個奢侈性消費的成本然後希望說節約的風氣然後到現在社會早就已經變遷了我們是鼓勵大家去行使這些文化跟體育的活動"},{"start":4935.319,"end":4962.248,"text":"那這個都是非常一般性的娛樂甚至是我們非常鼓勵的這些文化所以這個現在娛樂稅法這部法的本質是非常脫離台灣的社會現實的那就更不用說我們國家現在非常的矛盾一邊大力的鼓勵這種體育文化的活動甚至是用補貼的方式然後都是我們都用扶植的也編了很多的預算可是另外一方面"},{"start":4963.028,"end":4982.468,"text":"卻要對這些進場消費的去看球去看比賽去看電影的這些民眾課徵娛樂稅這件事情不矛盾嗎所以其實我原本的版本會希望說我們在準備裁員之後找到替代性裁員之後這部稅法乾脆就把它廢掉"},{"start":4983.209,"end":5006.299,"text":"那只是現在大家當然會有人說有一些地方的裁員真的會有衝擊那我也認為其實剛剛前面有非常多位委員都講得很好我們可以找到替代性的裁員之後用補貼的方式讓這一些衝擊比較大的縣市讓他階段性的可以慢慢去拿掉因為娛樂稅遭受到的影響"},{"start":5007.119,"end":5029.262,"text":"那其實我們看一下2024年全國收了20億的娛樂稅地方收入佔多少0點平均是0.13%甚至多數的縣市都是0.0幾%所以其實真的影響已經越來越小了我很希望說我們不應該再用這種不合時宜的法律去"},{"start":5029.682,"end":5056.897,"text":"框架這一些大力的在扶植地方文化地方體育的這些產業所以我覺得現階段如果是當下我們可以做的電影、戲劇、音樂、競技比賽這些都應該要先直接刪除那其他的項目我認為也要趕快請財政部列出階段性的目標趕快找一個替代性的方式讓這一些"},{"start":5058.258,"end":5080.778,"text":"項目都慢慢的可以一步一步的趨近於零那這是我在這邊一定要幫我們地方的體育跟文化產業大力發聲的地方也不希望說因為現在授權地方自己去爭然後變成說你在A縣市看戲跟在B縣市看戲是要收不同的稅率耶"},{"start":5081.238,"end":5098.186,"text":"然後甚至是因為大家也知道說現在看演唱會有很多種形式有粉絲見面會有簽名會那可能一種形式要收另外一種形式不用收那就變成你接下來越來越多的表演形式卻要收不同的稅率這樣子的問題"},{"start":5099.927,"end":5128.002,"text":"那這個其實之前也有這個脫口秀的表演者這個博恩他就講過他認為說為什麼脫口秀要收但是有一些方式卻不用收那甚至是你在不同的地方表演有的要收有的不用收這就是會造成這樣子表演藝術形態他們產業混亂的地方所以在這邊再次表達希望未來可以朝向停真這樣的目標去努力謝謝"},{"start":5129.769,"end":5153.704,"text":"再來請李燕秀委員發言 李燕秀委員發言之後郭國榮委員要發言謝謝 剛剛余若瑞的討論當然有好幾個不同層面有些人認為 有些委員認為應該全面的去做廢除但是我個人認為這整個各縣市雖然余若瑞整體在全國比例看起來不高但是有一些縣市 某一些縣市卻高達一成"},{"start":5154.364,"end":5171.938,"text":"或多或少我個人認為這對於各縣市本來拿這個娛樂稅收來去做其他市政相關的建設其實或多或少對他們來說都是一個重要的比例所以中長期要全面廢除我覺得可以來去做討論"},{"start":5172.779,"end":5194.101,"text":"但是短期間我個人認為應該還是要更成熟一點再來去做處理短期之間我個人認為應該是可以從因地制宜的方向現在最務實的方向是授權地方政府因地制宜去做處理所以哪些項目要修正要不要課或要課哪些項目課多少"},{"start":5194.662,"end":5200.108,"text":"因為各地方的收娛樂稅的狀況不太一致有一些委員他各縣市裡面他其實有一些高爾夫球場他們更認為應該擴大這樣子的運動我個人也支持那某一些縣市其實文化藝文產業非常的豐富他們希望"},{"start":5212.781,"end":5229.218,"text":"用這些娛樂稅的收入把地方娛樂事業相關的建設做得更到位更進步之後我們再來平徵這也是讓各地方我覺得授權各地方去做一些因地制宜的思考所以我個人認為短時間我們應該是授權地方去做後續的處理"},{"start":5233.862,"end":5250.231,"text":"稅制的改革不應該是只有全面廢除或維持現狀這兩個選項授權地方因地制宜也回應了社會對娛樂稅改革的期待也可以兼顧地方政府的現實需求這是現階段最穩健可行的修法以上是我的建議 謝謝"},{"start":5254.824,"end":5268.878,"text":"那我二次發言我想之前財政部的堅持其實都是跟地方政府的財力有所相關那問題是地方政府已經把財政部挖走了4165億財政部真的不需要再為地方政府來擋子彈了"},{"start":5270.62,"end":5298.682,"text":"更何況你把這個娛樂稅拿掉你讓整個這個表演經濟能夠蓬勃發展不論是職棒也好 演唱會也好它所帶動的周邊的這個消費所帶來的不同的一個稅源也可以補充地方政府的財政啊不是嗎 何必堅持這個娛樂稅呢對不對 你還要擋子彈他一邊給你要錢 你還要幫他擋子彈他怕他餓死 然後這種財政不法"},{"start":5300.143,"end":5325.728,"text":"心情好不好建議各位委員講過的意思一致的就不用再繼續重複了那我現在請文化部運動部跟財政部要回應那回應的重點要放幾個方面第一個回應的時候要談到第一個這個項目到底堅持要不要課你們的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":5326.445,"end":5345.83,"text":"第二個如果要課的如何授權地方來徵收然後地方的徵收他們剛剛要求說如果你停徵財政部要補錢有一部分的意見是這樣有一部分說不用補那另外又是說如果你都授權地方地方決定要不要收"},{"start":5346.75,"end":5360.985,"text":"那就沒有補的問題啦你地方要不要說你地方自己由你的財政自己來決定針對這幾個我認為的個人認為重要的項目等一下請你們回答的時候要回答到那我們是不是先請文化部先回答"},{"start":5365.305,"end":5381.393,"text":"文化部林專門委員主席各位委員大家好那文化部這邊代表我回應一下那有關娛樂說法第二條裡面有講到的電影歌唱舞蹈戲劇音樂演奏這些項目那的確是文化部核心發展的文化內容"},{"start":5381.913,"end":5404.58,"text":"那這個這幾個項目裡面其實因為稅收比例比較低然後目前也都可以在減半徵收那所以它的應該不是各縣市的主要稅收來源那所以本部是就這幾個項目是在討論過程當中是有表達本部立場是支持調整這些課程項目那因為財政部這邊後面還有其他的考量"},{"start":5408.153,"end":5437.042,"text":"我們是支持藝文活動這些項目可以不要放在裡面好謝謝表達完意見就好了再來請運動部劉專文委員主席各位委員大家好那確實高爾夫球跟那個所謂的競技運動本來就是我們部裡面長期在推展的一個運動項目但是因為稅收市財政部的一個權責這個部分我們還是尊重行政院的一個政策來配合辦理以上"},{"start":5437.935,"end":5464.12,"text":"那你們的意見呢你的意見就是財政部怎麼樣你們就怎麼樣是不是所以我認為你們不能沒有不好意思主席我覺得你們不能沒有立場你們是主管機關如果你們在推動但是你們認為說任人宰割那你們的主權在哪裡你們主管機關的權責在哪裡人家有表達意見的權利我的意思說你就是財政部怎麼講你們就怎麼接受就是了我們就配合行政院的一個指示好謝謝好那現在請財政部回答"},{"start":5468.057,"end":5482.746,"text":"謝謝趙偉謝謝各位委員的指教那我想大家都已經講了我大概就幾個重點第一個就是委員有提議就是全面廢止娛樂稅法也就是說就全部都不再課徵娛樂稅那我想娛樂稅第一個它是地方稅那跟地方的財源會有關係當然114年收取的是22.5億元"},{"start":5488.49,"end":5511.114,"text":"看起來金額不高但是在縣市的時候縣市裡面是鄉鎮市所收取的全部歸各鄉鎮市那因此呢各鄉鎮市對於這個財源他們是認為很重視然後這也是屬於地方的自治以及地方的自有財源他們希望在財政自治的部分他們能有所空間因此我們在歷次邀請地方政府來開會的時候他們都反對"},{"start":5514.856,"end":5523.043,"text":"廢止娛樂稅法那另外呢在財化法修正以後呢我們也再次徵詢地方政府的意見因為我們知道財化法修以後地方政府呢其實在以115年來說他就增加了比114年增加了4260幾億是倍增是倍增的那這部分如果在這種情況下是不是可以廢止娛樂稅"},{"start":5539.358,"end":5553.206,"text":"然後讓他們不需要再課徵娛樂稅但他們也都還是反對因為他們希望財政能夠自主這是他們的自有財源這是第一個就廢紙的部分第二個部分就是在對於第二條裡面主要是對於課徵娛樂稅的項目"},{"start":5556.898,"end":5562.004,"text":"當委員很多有指教也就是說對藝文以及競技活動的部分政府一方面補助一方面鼓勵一方面又要課稅那這個部分當然我們在爭取各地方政府的意見的時候他們認為說這個部分可以就是說做一些彈性因此在我們這一次院版裡面"},{"start":5575.16,"end":5591.341,"text":"也就是對於第一款到第四款也就是藝文活動包含電影啊或者歌劇舞蹈啊各種等等的競技活動裡面可以授權地方政府停征那這個部分停征與否他們可以考量他地方政府的產業的發展政策還有"},{"start":5593.783,"end":5602.885,"text":"財政的情況以及積增成本等等各種因素來考量給予停徵那這個停徵與否當然可以由必須要經過地方的民意機關的討論然後通過以後就可以停徵或者是減徵而目前的文獎條例裡面也可以減半課徵的情況所以這個部分是適度給予地方政府一些彈性彈性他們自己去考量考量的項目當然包含"},{"start":5619.049,"end":5623.533,"text":"政策的需要他自己產業的發展因為有些活動可以帶來周邊產業的發展而增加其他的稅收那他們可以做這方面的考量因此我覺得這個部分我們是經過充分的討論其實在院版出來之前也跟部會相關討論包含文化部體育部都有參與討論因此給予適度的一個彈性我想這個部分既可達到鼓勵的目的也授予地方能夠有一個自主的空間"},{"start":5643.308,"end":5659.456,"text":"那至於有關這個有關裁員的補助的部分那我們看到地方政府其實在裁判法修正以後他的裁員是倍增我們以一到三月的稅收來看他們去一到三月的稅收實質的稅收包含中央統籌分配稅款"},{"start":5659.996,"end":5677.461,"text":"是達到107.7也就是倍增但是就中央來說其實跟去年相比的話是減少的如果沒有證交稅的增加其實會減少更多所以剛剛各位有提到說如果廢止的話中央要給予裁員支持我覺得現在要考慮的是"},{"start":5678.381,"end":5699.873,"text":"財化法修正以後中央跟地方的財政結構已經有大幅的調整已經大幅的變動1到3月地方的稅收交還中央統籌分配稅款是比去年同期達到107.7%107.4倍增而中央事實上是比去年同期是減少的我想這個部分做這樣的一個說明也謝謝各位委員的指教還有沒有要補充第一個"},{"start":5705.289,"end":5731.349,"text":"剛剛文化部的專門委員有表達說第一款到第三款 那個大概是文化部主責的他是認為說為了要鼓勵發展 黃姐委員的意見也是一樣先講這第一款到第三款到底是要授權地方呢 還是乾脆就拿掉這是第一部分"},{"start":5733.82,"end":5761.647,"text":"各位委員有沒有不同的意見我就拿掉 我們確定拿掉有沒有不同意見 我的意思是說有沒有要保留的徐熙 那剛剛跟大家意見比較不一樣是李燕秀嘛 還在嗎在 李燕秀第一款到第三款財政部的意見要保留各位委員都說不要保留文化部也認為不用保留那李燕秀委員因為剛剛你的發言裡面有提到你認為跟大家的意見在這一部分略有不同"},{"start":5763.735,"end":5788.744,"text":"所以我請教你有沒有不一樣的意見然後再來就是財政部原來行政院版本四五六款還有第七款第五六七三款是一定要科然後第四款原來是一到四款是授權地方政府"},{"start":5790.199,"end":5816.013,"text":"地方的議會可以來決定我們現在就是一個月來講第四款是介於兩個中間因為第四款是運動部各種競技比賽這是運動部主管的運動部跟文化部是不是做到前面來因為運動部的意見還是要尊重財政部財政部是說想科各位委員對第四款有什麼意見"},{"start":5818.132,"end":5834.427,"text":"來 李觀城委員謝謝主席因為我剛剛就講過了嘛禁忌是指什麼電競是不是算禁忌對啊 那如果電競也是算禁忌的話那已經跟過去所謂我們講那個實體的禁忌那已經不一樣啦那我的看法是認為說禁忌這部分也是比較可啦"},{"start":5835.954,"end":5859.31,"text":"這是李昆正委員的意見 有沒有委員相同的就不用講了啦 有沒有不一樣的 不一樣的講來 郭董事長講一下 我要提醒一下運動部這邊鼓勵這個體育競技 還有鼓勵這個相關的賽事這其實是整個這個運動部基本的一個立場那如果基本的立場是鼓勵的話那你如果支持財政部 財政部要磕碎的話不是跟貴部的立場不一樣嗎 你怎麼會"},{"start":5861.011,"end":5888.056,"text":"來表達一個跟貴部立場不一樣的一個代表呢我是要挑戰跟質疑啊怎麼運動部可以沒有意見呢你本部的一個偵測是什麼你的部本部的態度是怎麼樣你的主體性怎麼講清楚啦因為今天是我們委員會在審啦我的意思是聽我們委員的意見我們也不一定要遵照運動部的啊我們也不一定要遵照財政部的啊如果所有參加的委員都認為第四款不應該科我現在是在問說有沒有人認為第四款要科的啦"},{"start":5890.285,"end":5914.896,"text":"那施密多贊成第四款錢拿掉有沒有不一樣的 我再問一次好 那第四款錢拿掉現在的意見是這樣 後面五六七啊這三款因為剛剛徐希林委員提到這些財政還有林施密委員提到財政裡面其實對你們新竹比較重要的應該是高爾夫球場那對西安政事比較重要的是高爾夫球場那我有一個提案 大家聽聽看"},{"start":5916.816,"end":5943.575,"text":"五六七授權給地方議會決定啦地方的民意機關決定啦你們新竹要不要課你們新竹自己決定不要拿到立法院這邊來吵啦不然的話每一年都來耶不是我在這邊十幾年了每一年都來為了這個議題每一年都來所以一到四款不要五六七授權給地方政府這樣大家的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":5946.854,"end":5961.87,"text":"多支持嘛齁有不同意見現在要講喔不要我出去了之後你要說沒有沒有我反對喔在這邊大家就講有意見就講市民你想這個我想原本我剛才是提到我是認為高爾夫球其實現在已經是全民普及的運動了齁"},{"start":5963.511,"end":5982.258,"text":"我是認為是不用課但是我覺得主席剛才的建議也蠻好的我們就授權地方政府他因地制宜來做調整嘛他們自己來看要不要課啦所以我贊成主席的一個建議以上主席 我贊成主席的建議大家看還有沒有"},{"start":5984.059,"end":5990.042,"text":"我們現在財政委員會還有今天所有開會委員的意見你都聽到了你們現在回應一下吧我們這樣子的話你們有什麼意見"},{"start":6008.077,"end":6029.326,"text":"我們其實在爭取地方政府以及各部會討論的時候一到四給予地方政府的一個授權我覺得這是一個彈性那地方政府可以斟酌他當地的發展情況來考量要不要收而且我們也看到他們其實收的以後對金額看起來不大但是對地方政府來說他們認為這是一個財政自主他們是一個自主的一個空間而認為是不要"},{"start":6031.347,"end":6051.92,"text":"不要把他們直接限制就把他拿掉我想這個是經過多次的討論以後讓地方政府授權給他去做那他也會經過民意機關的同意以後認為要收或不收那至於五六七這個部分尤其是比如說舞廳舞場那我想當然各位也許會覺得說那娛樂稅為什麼要擔負這麼多的一個社會責任但是租稅除了一個財政收入之外他還有某種社會的"},{"start":6058.465,"end":6078.065,"text":"意義在裡面 舞廳 舞場或者是就是說它的娛樂性質究竟跟前面的又不太一樣那高爾夫球場剛才也提到它使用的土地的面積範圍大而且接觸的民眾也不是那麼普遍平常來說它相對於一般其他的娛樂性質來說不是那樣高 而且門檻也比較高"},{"start":6079.546,"end":6107.515,"text":"那因此對於土地資源的一個運用事實上外部成本是比較高的那其他當然娛樂場所這些後面的第七款裡面是一個概括性的規定為什麼因為娛樂的項目其實會隨著時代的演進它會變化很大會增加什麼所以因此有一個第七款的一個概括性那在當時為什麼五六七沒有給沒有所謂授權地方政府那是地方政府認為說它授權給它老實說它也"},{"start":6107.935,"end":6131.74,"text":"也害怕他也就怕就是說會有其他的壓力別的地方不收然後這個地方我要收對不對尤其對於比如說娛樂高爾夫球場比較多的地方來說他可能覺得要收可是其他的縣市他根本沒有高爾夫球場或者是說他就覺得很少那他就要說停車那對要收的地方的地方政府來說會形成一個壓力"},{"start":6132.16,"end":6140.923,"text":"所以因此在五六七的部分當時在會上討論的結果並沒有授權不是財政部不願意授權而地方政府其實謝謝部長主席剛才部長講的都是重複他先前已經講的"},{"start":6151.035,"end":6155.541,"text":"阿他重複的都沒被制止我們委員稍微重複的都被制止"},{"start":6165.749,"end":6193.64,"text":"這樣子 我們其實現在在開這個委員會所有的委員意見相當一致相當一致 幾乎沒有不同意見你看連徐信義委員他們最新出現他們最要緊的高爾夫學他都在那邊點頭了你這個全部都是地方稅你這個娛樂稅全部都是地方稅 跟中間無關你要做之均 做之失我覺得你們府廳不應該跳所以我要給你們瞌睡這個沒有必要這樣 時代已經不同了"},{"start":6194.96,"end":6220.791,"text":"但是我們尊重立法機制我就會建議各位委員我們把這條保留到院會寫上的時候院會我們寫上說我們在堅持好不好這條保留你們回去再想一下看你們怎麼說服說服立法院其他的多數同仁這樣好不好第二條先保留再來繼續再來這個還要保留再來進行第四條第二條好像還要保留不是啦"},{"start":6222.487,"end":6241.336,"text":"對啊 主席前面四款我們不是都有共同的意見嗎不是前面四款有共同意見連後面三款也有共同意見但是財政部反對嘛那我們的委員會決定跟我們到運會協商的時候決定一樣啦 意思是一樣的啦"},{"start":6243.78,"end":6271.265,"text":"結論是一樣啦財政部有反對 理由根本不存在不是不存在 人家的理由就存在只是說他的理由你覺得合不合理啦怎麼會說他的理由不存在他確實他們就是反對嘛但是你們要想想看你們那個觀念齁我現在是要提醒部裡面齁這邊全部都民意代表 都是地方來的人家都有很多問題都有替你想過並不是沒有替你想過啦齁那你們回去再考量看看齁好 那再來第四條 來"},{"start":6278.502,"end":6287.147,"text":"那如果你這樣第四條保留的話第五條根本就保留了啊第二條啦我們剛剛講的是第二條啦那你第二條保留的話第五條應該就保留了啊是啊"},{"start":6294.502,"end":6323.842,"text":"沒有 我覺得這樣子 是不是合理的喔主席 我覺得我們剛才您那裡說我們委員 立法委員這邊都已經在第二條的不是啦 我們財政網絡的委員剛剛在這邊開了委員很有慣是沒有錯但是本院有113個委員並不是只有我們這十幾個嘛我在主持這個議事我也得考量到整個讓它怎麼完整我們這邊的客人強力我們就決定就出去那委員 讓他一樣可以給我們推翻那一樣也很難看啦"},{"start":6324.802,"end":6352.129,"text":"所以我是覺得不用這麼強勢羅偉文你好第一次發言主席跟委員坐著講我怕那邊看不到希望部長可以看到我其實你這個保留弄到最後這個不是第一次開廢除娛樂稅或者調整相關的會議了開了十幾年了那我會不會報告"},{"start":6354.241,"end":6377.848,"text":"每年都提出 你送到院會說什麼保留協商最後就是受衝 受衝正擒你這個按約就沒了其實大家都知道娛樂稅它這個存廢的意見是大多數都是覺得這是叫做脫褲子放屁 多此一舉全世界哪裡還是什麼地方還搞這個娛樂稅"},{"start":6379.988,"end":6403.448,"text":"大家都講說這個稅會少了什麼就地方的情況來說少多少中央就補多少就解決了那我們最重要維持的一個概念叫做清稅減正如果中央又來說我這一塊會少多少錢部長你缺的錢你來找我 我補給你"},{"start":6405.694,"end":6426.664,"text":"我首先講一個 證交稅去年變的預算才三千多億今年每一天的成交量 交易均量都接近一兆一兆的意思就是說財政部沒什麼事幹躺在那邊一聽就收二十四億一年收 今年可以預估收六千億"},{"start":6427.825,"end":6444.811,"text":"各位親愛的委員,六千多億你們說的都沒用,慘了拜託啦,沒用,我們不要牽著拔著去啦,我們就針對那個啦好,我就具體的這個主張喔財政部會運起來啦,你就宣布說全部廢掉地方少的,中央通通都補"},{"start":6445.951,"end":6468.266,"text":"承擔部吹錢了 你來找我海外還有一條移政稅 大概是五千多億你們有沒有去追啊 謝謝請賴思寶委員謝謝主席啊 各位新進我們都知道啊 你們都知道啊 這輿論稅是民國三十一年啊欸 部長啊 部長三十一年啊"},{"start":6469.534,"end":6471.735,"text":"現在政府還要發文化幣 運動幣 課娛樂稅"},{"start":6490.646,"end":6506.663,"text":"他資訊也不夠啦 你現在先要發動 要發行文化幣的這個文化部啊運動部發行運動幣啊你要課16歲 這很奇怪啊 可不是這樣所以乾脆大部分 按了多少錢 20億而已啊 20億而已啊你們補一下很簡單的啊 對吧 愁善如流啦"},{"start":6518.345,"end":6520.046,"text":"那個休息五分鐘,休息五分鐘"},{"start":6542.444,"end":6555.682,"text":"好來來來跟大家報告一下就是財政部重申由劉大英我們的第一款到第四款拿掉567由地方的民意機關決定授權地方民意機關決定"},{"start":6557.765,"end":6586.007,"text":"那這樣就沒有補償的問題了喔因為567他們地方最主要是高爾夫球的跟五丁的對啦 主席那附帶主要的答案都不處理了這個才是雙贏啦當然不補啦 前面是完全不補啦這樣雙贏啦對啦 雙贏那徐徐議員你的這個臨時提案就不處理了喔因為567讓地方政府決定附帶主委那個就撤回啦不處理不採購 這樣是雙贏的舉例那個條文案案本去改好不好你們現在接下去改"},{"start":6589.97,"end":6605.683,"text":"五六七授權地方政府自己去決定啊一二三四兩掉了這樣啦對啦那就這樣啦我們達成這個很高的公式齁我們立法院三黨都是高度公式齁都在這很高度公式齁OK"},{"start":6622.563,"end":6628.505,"text":"所以大家再堅持個十分鐘我們大概就可以處理得差不多了第四條"},{"start":6632.487,"end":6654.906,"text":"第四條沒有什麼意見那就照我們剛剛的原則改了齁我們送出來是就是財化法修正後有在找他們來討論各位我們趕快把它處理完好不好大家不要來聊天了來第四條有什麼意見嗎"},{"start":6662.421,"end":6672.415,"text":"有兩個文 那是為此現行發文那個劉偉文要處理第四條不是第五條第四條啊 第四條OK好 那就第四條為此現行發文來 第五條來 劉偉文請發言第五條嗎"},{"start":6676.744,"end":6693.802,"text":"第二條就是在現在新修正的第二條的基礎上面我們針對的跟院板當中最大的一個差異跟院板的差異當然是說前面的那個醫藥事情拿掉了嘛那舞廳這邊跟院板是一樣的那就在高爾夫球這邊我們認為說高爾夫球它現在已經是奧運的項目了"},{"start":6698.807,"end":6715.733,"text":"張格蘭現在還希望能夠是要從全民當中去培養這種的選手啊人才啊因此說在高爾夫球場裡面我們覺得他最高的那個勝率呢我們把它降為說是以10%為主但是跟財政部上面就是有這樣的差異而已那其他都跟院板的一樣那請求公決這樣子 謝謝"},{"start":6716.593,"end":6736.91,"text":"不是啦 劉爺我跟你建議我們既然567款 原來的567款要由地方的民意機關來決定那就由地方民意機關來決定我們訂一個 那個不要給他改啦地方民意機關他自己本身如果要不收或是要少收他們都可以在這個範圍內決定嘛那我們現在如果"},{"start":6738.035,"end":6767.382,"text":"中央的立法機關幫地方的民意機關決定將來他就要賴給我們啦他就說那你中央要給我補稅啊補我的損失這一部分啊所以我是認為第五條就是維持維持比較好啦你的要求不會減損啦為什麼因為如果你的要求很合理你們地方的民意機關也會把他減減打高爾夫球減少我跟你說最最有意見的其實是徐欣穎啦因為他們新竹縣的高爾夫球非常多啦讓新竹縣去決定啦好不好"},{"start":6769.189,"end":6797.752,"text":"主席你的意思是說原來的院板現在的5第5條的1234就會刪掉了嘛對然後呢那其他部分呢就567這部分就是回遲到院板因為最終的這部分是由地方決定所以就地方自己去決定地方決定是因為我們它現在決定只有天花板所以地方譬如說現在高爾夫球地方最高是20對不對地方也可以決定我只收5%我只收10%我只收15%我收20%但它不可以超過20%"},{"start":6799.198,"end":6817.095,"text":"那我覺得讓地方政府決定 地方的民意機關決定就好好啦好啦 你就這樣 好不好不過我還是想說更優惠的高爾夫還降到10%就只是那個而已好我念一下不是說你最高天花板我們還降到10%不是更不是啦"},{"start":6821.008,"end":6824.05,"text":"搞不好我舉個例子 桃園市說我不要收了 也可能啊天花板是10% 不要啦"},{"start":6836.763,"end":6864.265,"text":"好那我第五條我先念一下啦大家注意聽一下你們注意聽一下財政部注意聽一下第五條餘額稅照所收票價或收費額依下列稅率計增之五廳會晤一五廳會晤場最高不得超過50%二高爾夫球場最高不得超過20%三其他經財政部公告"},{"start":6866.552,"end":6891.965,"text":"屬提供娛樂場 屬娛樂設施或娛樂活動供給娛樂者 最高不得超過25%第五條這樣子 再來第六條第六條文字修正文字修正到底有沒有什麼意見第六條照行政院門門通過 再來第八條"},{"start":6898.12,"end":6923.282,"text":"有什麼意見嗎那維持現行條文好不好OK 再來第九條也一樣維持現行條文因為我們最主要的都改了第十條照願版照行願願提案通過第十三條事業維持現行條文"},{"start":6926.857,"end":6945.805,"text":"好 第17條 照行政院的條文照行政院提案的版本通過好 那我們往上去開始宣讀但是那個第二條的條文 那休息五分鐘"},{"start":6948.363,"end":6949.344,"text":"不用学习了"},{"start":6964.105,"end":6972.733,"text":"因為共產黨的意見一致所以我覺得可以先把我們都同意的 共間的碼碼都不說的我們再說一說 待會稍微這樣我現在這樣處理你最乾淨對 我也這樣處理"},{"start":6989.341,"end":6989.361,"text":"留個紀錄"},{"start":7006.335,"end":7007.176,"text":"是,是,是,是"},{"start":7030.589,"end":7053.387,"text":"謝謝謝謝謝謝"},{"start":7063.553,"end":7066.255,"text":"請問你的ID是什麼?電話就可以了?好,沒問題,謝謝"},{"start":7095.998,"end":7120.265,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":7137.472,"end":7137.512,"text":"謝謝各位"},{"start":7189.979,"end":7190.98,"text":"兩位嗎?會留著啊?"},{"start":7215.549,"end":7239.821,"text":"哈哈哈哈"},{"start":7262.024,"end":7265.606,"text":"小事情我們處理就好了"},{"start":7292.257,"end":7294.598,"text":"嗯 要進來就行 呵呵"},{"start":7323.372,"end":7323.993,"text":"中文字幕志愿者"},{"start":7368.478,"end":7374.564,"text":"現在請議事院開始宣讀我們修正草案通過的版本"},{"start":7376.379,"end":7396.579,"text":"娛樂稅法協商結論第二條 照行政院提案修正通過條文內容為 娛樂稅就下列娛樂場所 娛樂設施或娛樂活動首收票價或收費額徵收之一 五廳或五場二 高爾夫球場三 請拿經財政部公告署提供娛樂場所 娛樂設施或娛樂活動公認娛樂者"},{"start":7400.723,"end":7414.496,"text":"前項所各種娛樂場所娛樂設施或娛樂活動不受票券定以其他飲料品或娛樂設施提供娛樂忍者按期收"},{"start":7418.484,"end":7441.195,"text":"第二項前項各種娛樂場所娛樂設施或娛樂活動不受票券另以其他飲料品或娛樂設施供應娛樂忍者按其收費額課徵娛樂稅第三項指蝦市及縣市政府得失產業發展政策需要及財政狀況提徵第一項各款規定課稅項目之娛樂稅"},{"start":7445.057,"end":7469.607,"text":"提經當地民意機關通過報財政部被查其停徵應定名實施期限並以達成合理之政策目的為限第四條不予修正維持現行條文第五條照行政院提案修正通過條文內容為娛樂稅照所收票價或收費額以下列稅率計增之"},{"start":7470.888,"end":7492.557,"text":"一 舞廳或舞場 最高不得超過50%二 高爾夫球場 最高不得超過20%三 啟納金財政部公告署提供娛樂場所 娛樂設施或娛樂活動工人娛樂者 最高不得超過25%第六條 照行政院提案"},{"start":7494.125,"end":7519.125,"text":"修正通過第六條 照行政院提案通過第八條 不予修正 維持現行條文第九條 不予修正 維持現行條文第十條 照行政院提案通過第十三條 不予修正 維持現行條文第十七條 照行政院提案通過宣讀完畢"},{"start":7520.286,"end":7528.577,"text":"請問各位委員對協商結論有異議稍等一下 稍等一下來 賴委員第二條的第一"},{"start":7529.614,"end":7549.023,"text":"三項嘛 庭 徵 運民 定民 實施 期限為什麼要實施期限 你原條文都沒有實施期限耶這個庭的話 地方政府他們怎麼定這個一定要實施期限嗎 因為你原來條文沒有耶拿麥克風講 還是上去講"},{"start":7560.034,"end":7560.594,"text":"請問各位委員對協商結論有異議"},{"start":7590.438,"end":7617.446,"text":"好 照協商結論通過本次會議作如下決議娛樂 稅法 不願留完修正查案等29案審查完略並按擬拒審查報告提報院會討論院會討論前不需交黨團協商院會討論時有本席補充說明請問各位委員對以上決議有異議沒有通過謝謝 今天到此散會"},{"start":7620.046,"end":7644.824,"text":"打死刑 打死刑 打死刑 打死刑 打死刑 打死刑"},{"start":7649.524,"end":7666.678,"text":"不會今年轉官了我跟你講很簡單喔以前他規劃今年稅收這麼高稅稅不足比較亮他太長了 都不夠用現在都不夠 要給你高不會啦你一手稅增加就不夠了"}]}},{"id":"168534","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168534","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ec77822e2e6eae38975d4c58d2e291bcf00c58ee6be6f7a25bca6d85ad377ff8974e5e652c6c4c95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"10:03:12 - 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謝謝"},{"start":154.702,"end":173.383,"text":"好 30秒好 謝謝委員關切這個議題那我快速報告一下就是目前我們今年度要辦理的業務裡面比方說像兩公約還有CDO以及CRPD的國際審查那在這部分我們有撰寫了獨立評估意見可是呢過去我們這些獨立評估意見它可以把它再轉譯成一些"},{"start":174.063,"end":186.17,"text":"比方說簡易版、易讀版以及點字版這一類的可是現在都沒有辦法所以其實它會影響一些身心障礙者的在了解這些議題上面的一個權利第二就是我們其實今年有通過一個調查案是要針對身心障礙者的搭乘大眾預輸工具上面受到歧視的這樣一個調查案"},{"start":197.817,"end":218.238,"text":"可是因為目前沒有預算所以目前是暫緩執行那此外就是像今年的3月31號到4月2號是全球的國家人權機構聯盟的一個會議那雖然我們不是聯合國的會員但是其實它每一次都會有一些side event是我們可以參與的但是因為今年也沒有這些經費"},{"start":219.199,"end":235.552,"text":"所以目前都是暫停那這幾個其實就是目前我們現在很明顯面臨的那接下來就是要面對CRC的國際公約的審查所以其實這部分在召開專家諮詢等等的上面其實目前都會有一些困難可能都必須要透過視訊等方式來辦理"},{"start":236.272,"end":261.663,"text":"了解至少我聽到的就是我補充一句話剛才執密所報告這些內容都是由大院所通過的國家人權委員會的組織法所訂定的法定職權所以法定職權我們真的受到重大的衝擊因此沒有辦法把大院所列的這些法定職權非常順利的來執行"},{"start":263.144,"end":283.574,"text":"那我聽到的就是預算業務費遭刪96%然後加上今年的總預算至今未審所以你們必須要依照去年至少已經使得身心障礙的權益受傷也使得兒童權利相關公約的國際交流沒辦法像原本期待的方式進行"},{"start":284.594,"end":312.065,"text":"那我真的是覺得非常的遺憾那也希望今天下午我們有政黨協商那總預算的部分至少能夠順利復違那延續我剛剛關心的額略跟校士的兒童權益的問題我想這邊秘書長你有看到這幾年兒童權益真的是不斷的有事件包含就是今年就有台中國小棒球教練的性侵案"},{"start":312.765,"end":337.83,"text":"那兩年前也有南投前國小校長的性侵案那之前還有資優班的老師性侵案然後更早還有南投的兒少安置機構性侵案這些都還是發生在國家的機構因為學校都是公立的學校安置機構也都有得到相關的部會的支持跟管理那我有個看法是不是能夠設立獨立的兒童監督單位"},{"start":341.131,"end":358.858,"text":"這部分想要請教監察院的意見因為我看到CRC國家報告的國際審查意見中其中有提到第15項委員會建議應該盡速依照聯合國兒童權利委員會第二號一般性意見"},{"start":359.958,"end":385.171,"text":"成立國家人權機構這個你們已經有了並內設監督兒童權利的專責單位或是成立兒童監察室辦公室或者是設置兒童權利委員所以國際審查委員的意見覺得你們裡面可以設置兒童權利的專責機構或者是兒童監察室那我們立法院也早就10年12年前就通過了兒童權利公約"},{"start":386.211,"end":403.04,"text":"那2002年CRC委員會就有這個意見了兒童監察史那我想再給您看就是各國的例子我這邊有列出的挪威是全球第一個有這個做法的是1981年那瑞典1993年"},{"start":404.781,"end":422.951,"text":"也有兒童監察使還有專法波蘭也有專法愛爾蘭也是有專法有兒童監察使他不只是監督還有做政策建議社會教育日本則有地方層級的韓國有中央到地方層級的推動"},{"start":423.931,"end":442.985,"text":"那我看到你們今天有提到希望本院能夠審查你們相關的法規所以我想請教就是說有沒有可能你們來評估在兒童監察室方面放在監察院裡面的可行性那也能夠符合CRC的人權規範"},{"start":444.566,"end":458.116,"text":"因為現在很多的師生不管是霸凌或者是性侵爭議都沒有第三方的調查那還是在學校裡頭那能不能有獨立的第三方兒童權益的監察專責機制"},{"start":460.117,"end":480.856,"text":"能夠專門監察兒童權利的落實情況那也能夠支持符合國際兒童公約的兒童表意等權利呢那你們有沒有可能去做一個評估剛才針對委員剛才的質詢裡面有分兩個層次我是以這兩個層次來回答第一個層次是說針對目前台灣的制度上面的建議"},{"start":481.977,"end":504.133,"text":"第一個我們在2021年到2025年之間我們也總共監察院完成了112件關於兒少人權的調查報告總共112件裡面我大概的通篇重點就是說只在我們政府要加強的地方往往就是所謂的通報機制相關的建立要完善"},{"start":505.473,"end":521.981,"text":"第二個 法制上面 法制上面委員一直呼籲要成立的所謂的兒童監察室這樣的一個概念因為這是涉及到整體的制度性的改變跟修法"},{"start":522.501,"end":547.293,"text":"那其實相關的功能其實我們國家人權委員會已經把它都全部都負擔起來了那未來如果要成立專責的以兒童為目標的這樣子一個監察室或相關的機關構的這樣的概念的時候試射到法治是不是容我們回去我們的內部必須要再做更進一步的研討才有辦法對委員做正式的一個說明等等"},{"start":548.073,"end":562.906,"text":"因為我看到的資料你們過去有評估過那但是兒童權益的被傷害的情況這幾年跟你們當年評估的情況已經不可同日而語了那尤其是少子化那其實大家特別的重視兒童權益那我們在國際兒童公約的一個對話上也比過去更精進所以是不是能夠"},{"start":570.613,"end":588.186,"text":"我們的目標絕對是我們大家共同的目標我們一定會朝著這個目標來做只是在法治上面我們有一個去研商的空間謝謝您願意回去研商評估那是不是可以一個月可以給本席相關的報告還是時間太短也可以再延長"},{"start":592.911,"end":604.424,"text":"委員因為這涉及到制度跟法規所以我們可能需要稍微長一點的時間是不是給本院三個月的時間三個月的時間喔三個月 兩個月好不好"},{"start":605.184,"end":630.852,"text":"兩個月跟委員報告這真的是因為我們現在有國家人權委員會他本身在做那在這個體制下要怎麼樣這個兒童監察室怎麼樣去融合跟全國的行政機關之間因為這到底有一個有一個五院的分權等等的問題在內當然就是說我們立委都比較希望能夠更快有結果你們兩個月就是就算沒有結論也可以先給我一個報告好不好可以可以謝謝謝謝委員指教謝謝好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168533","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168533","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ec77822e2e6eae3f580d4666670c56861f404ecbec9cddc25bca6d85ad377ffcd073220c318363b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"10:04:13 - 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最好的準備就是當然是要跟日本跟菲律賓我們至少在這個中等國家之間的聯盟上面不管是在去衝突化 在這種雷達雷琴上面的去衝突化的識別化這些都是需要外交部主動來去詢問國防部 主動來去詢問經濟部讓他們能夠來去做整體的這個規劃"},{"start":258.038,"end":285.79,"text":"不是說我成立一個工作小組你成立一個工作小組又怎樣你們解決了什麼事情我們的報告不是要說我成立了哪個小組我要看到是你做了什麼事情你協調了什麼事情你跟哪裡進了哪些能源可以確保說我活在未來的一個月兩個月三個月到七個月都可以不用擔心這才是我們報告要的我不需要很多文字上面的贅述不需要那包含我也這樣在這邊跟所有的這些外交部經濟部跟所有的同仁們講以後 特別是國防部現在他沒有來 沒關係"},{"start":287.051,"end":305.589,"text":"我們的報告內容其實罪質不要多 不是機密的就不要說是機密這樣子以後我們再去做事情的時候會更有用再來我們要提到一下中國國民黨 曾立文他們主席去訪問中國的時候他們有講了一些反殖民跟反日的論述我們有準備好要怎麼樣去針對這個論述來去反制嗎"},{"start":311.638,"end":327.77,"text":"首先我們感謝委員的關心,我們當然對於國內的政治外交部是沒有立場,但是我們也希望國內的主要政治領袖必須要準確的傳達台灣的主流民意,就是中華民國台灣與中華人民共和國互不隸屬的事實。"},{"start":329.491,"end":354.633,"text":"那從歷史上面也是這樣,中華人民共和國從來沒有統治台灣那這個東西我想是一個共識那如果政治領袖傳達一個錯誤的訊息往往會產生一個很重大的後果尤其是對於像中華人民共和國這個對台灣有敵意的一個國家常常會用這個問題來操作那我們也覺得這個事情上面我們都必須要特別的小心謝謝次長"},{"start":355.313,"end":376.32,"text":"市長他們不斷的強調用反殖民的這樣的說法說說台灣也是在反殖民中國也是在反殖民我要跟大家報告這個當初在這個川普在6月6日在跟德國的總理他們在會晤的時候他說D-Day對你們德國來說可能不是一個愉快的日子"},{"start":377.062,"end":398.035,"text":"但是那總理怎麼回應他說這是我國從納粹獨裁統治下獲得解放的日子同樣也是當初為什麼會有中日戰爭就是因為他們軍國主義的擴張當初為什麼會有歐戰跟二戰就是因為納粹主義的擴張那是什麼樣的作戰解放了他們是美國以及當初的中華民國"},{"start":399.736,"end":423.104,"text":"我們從被壓迫的軍國主義以及歐洲被納粹主義從解放出來的那時候我們的盟國是誰中華民國台灣的盟國中華民國的盟友又是誰很明顯的是美國嘛對不對所以我們這個歷史觀要很清楚的知道說是什麼樣的解放出來那日本跟德國在戰後之後變成什麼樣的國家民主的國家甚至是經濟的重心是歐盟的經濟的重心因為他們從軍國主義從納粹主義轉換"},{"start":426.445,"end":444.06,"text":"他們從新的來去做民主的轉型經濟的轉型那中國部分也是一樣中國在歷經他們的改革開放之後他們做了經濟的轉型經濟的轉型讓很多人脫貧對此我們是歡迎的我必須要很清楚的讓所有的民眾知道我們並沒有仇視中國人"},{"start":444.64,"end":467.91,"text":"但我們不希望的是用極權的方式來去改變我們的生活方式這是我們的外交論述不是每次就只是單純的從樣的照本宣科沒有這樣子的你要跟民眾講清楚我們的外交是在做什麼我們要爭取的是什麼那現在中國做了經濟轉型之後他們沒有做政治轉型這就是跟我們完全不同的地方我們沒有要追求中國的"},{"start":469.008,"end":495.691,"text":"政權更替沒有 這不是我國的利益我國利益就是台灣就是台灣以及我們的台澎金馬這是我國的利益我們沒有要求中國要走向政治改革這不是我的工作我的工作就是在台灣確保台灣2300萬人有我們自己的生活方式要保護我們的生活方式要維持我們的生活方式所以對我們來說反殖民也好反帝國主義也好反軍國主義也好都是在維持我們的生活方式同樣的我們也反極權"},{"start":496.832,"end":511.755,"text":"我們也反對 中共直接來武力犯台這也是維護我們的生活方式請大家仔細思考一下以後外交部不要每次都說這個我們這個理念相同啦價值觀相同我們要跟多少個跟價值觀不同的國家來互動我們基本上國家不用跟"},{"start":512.516,"end":540.744,"text":"這些東南亞的國家來互動嗎他們的理念價值跟我們一樣嗎他們也追求民主自由嗎有些有有些並不是我們沒有我們是一個中等國家中等國家不是超級強國我們不用干預每一個國家的內政但是我們必須要維持我們的內政我們維持內政就是民主自由這是我們的生活模式不會強加在其他人身上也不希望任何人強加在我們身上未來我希望說外交部也好入委會也好針對這種不同的說法我們"},{"start":541.624,"end":568.189,"text":"必須要有一個特別是有些時候是disinformation給這種錯假亂訊息想要扭曲我國的主權想要扭曲我國的事實上的存在的時候必須思考一下你要用什麼樣的方式來去有效的詮釋我們國家生存的價值跟我們國家跟其他國家互動的利益如果沒有的話那現在要馬上思考一下我們的外交戰略是什麼好 謝謝是感謝委員的質詢喔這個還有佩服委員的這個歷史觀以及世界觀謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168548","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168548","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ec77822e2e6eae3a87d282d3206fec9cf00c58ee6be6f7a25bca6d85ad377fff0c0b32b082070385ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"10:26:49 - 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我們有請祕書長好 祕書長好 祕書長好我想今天我想要跟那個祕書長來討論有關於台中教練性侵的這個事件希望這個監察院來針對這些事件來做一些調查就是說"},{"start":27.667,"end":43.459,"text":"這個其實在去年3月我就開始關心教育部啦那教育部其實也有去關心台中市政府啦但是我想大家從最近的新聞可以看見這個棒球教練松信教練呢他其實已經這個受害者已經突破了這個53名"},{"start":46.158,"end":63.777,"text":"還是80名這個數字現在好像教育局跟新聞報導掌握的是完全不一樣的那其實後來在上個禮拜也可以看到就是說台中市政府其實也並沒有懲處這個教育局所以這件事情凸顯的是什麼是我們雖然有一些制度但是現場的執行是失靈的"},{"start":66.619,"end":91.731,"text":"那這件事件呢 夾橫跨了非常的多年那也不是個別的一個犯罪問題啦因為其實我們從過去呢我自己這邊也關注了許多有關於這些兒少性侵的這些案件之後呢我們不管是新竹縣啦 花蓮縣啦或是今天早上最新的新聞是在台北在北部的這個某個競技學校也有類似的這樣子的狀況那所以呢"},{"start":92.711,"end":101.145,"text":"我認為在我們在教練的聘任查衡到日常的監督機制其實都沒有發揮應該有的一個作用那我也非常高興可以看到我們監察院的紀惠隆監委其實已經申請自動調查了"},{"start":104.758,"end":125.763,"text":"但是呢我是再想請問因為這個東西並不是只是這個案件它其實是一個跨縣市一個結構性的問題我們是不是可以針對體育班的部分來做一個更完整的這個調查呢不然如果我們只有處理這個個案的話接下來很有可能還是會有下一個悲劇發生"},{"start":126.863,"end":147.155,"text":"如果委員您提到的是台中這個個案因為基於法令的限制我沒辦法在這邊針對這個個案所以我不是要查個案我要查是領域班如果是整個機制的話我們跟您報告關於運動教練狼屍的類似的案件我們整個第六屆監委"},{"start":147.975,"end":165.673,"text":"已經有提出六件調查報告而且有五件通過糾正那其實這個糾正的過程統合整個脈絡簡單的回答也就是說我們已經具體的要求行政機關是在哪裡呢就是整個通報機制的改善"},{"start":166.534,"end":186.395,"text":"這整個通報機制我們要求行政機關一定要做改善不論通報機制是在設置教練仲裁或紀律委員會建立同儕通報以外呢還有對於不適任運動教練的通報以及地方查驗代理教師的資料將不適任教師列入"},{"start":187.295,"end":209.98,"text":"教練列入通報我這樣聽起來其實是我了解我們現在有些這樣子的當時有提出一些這樣子的報告的確有一些在執行但我想要針對的是體育班這樣子的一個機制裡面是不是為什麼他們更容易就是這樣子的重大事件層出不朽我們是不是可以針對體育班的一個這樣子的性侵的案件做一個系統性統整性的一個調查呢"},{"start":211.143,"end":230.039,"text":"這個案子我們就針對這個體育班正在調查中不僅是體育班的這個制度不是只有台中市我知道這個制度上面透過這個個案我們會看得更清楚好謝謝那再繼續講就是說因為剛剛其實秘書長也有提到說我們提出了一些不適任教練應該要如何去查詢可是實際上"},{"start":231.32,"end":242.06,"text":"那個 秘書長我請你看一下這一個公告齁這是主協的公告請問一下我是一個家長我看到這個不適應教練之後我要知道他是誰嗎我要如何知道他是誰是"},{"start":244.175,"end":272.916,"text":"江圈圈黃圈圈涉性侵兒少事件我家長看到這個我要怎麼知道這個到底是誰我們根本無從得知我們現在的這個公告機制是沒有辦法讓家長安心的等於是說家長在把小孩送去不管是做俱樂部的訓練也好或是送去學校也好他根本是瞎子摸象完全不知道他到底送進去是培育孩子發展天賦的金牌教練還是是摧毀孩子夢想的狼獅教練"},{"start":273.877,"end":297.319,"text":"所以我想這個是一個很大的問題我們也一直在跟去年就一直在跟運動部在溝通這件事情當時是教育部的體育署就一直在溝通可是他們就告訴我們說因為礙於各自法的規範還要保障這些教練的工作權所以在沒有任何法規授權的機制之下他們只能夠維持用這種方式"},{"start":298.5,"end":326.349,"text":"來進行那我想這件事情我跟人本其實已經主張了至少超過一年那希望說是不是監察院也可以針對這樣子的一個處置方式來進行調查或是糾正呢我們會把委員您的質詢待會去給監委請他們來參考這個意見在未來辦理相關意見這個案類似的案件的時候還有對於政府的相關的監督的時候能夠善加"},{"start":327.089,"end":352.476,"text":"我想就針對就是說因為其實在衛福部或是教育部他們都有相關的不是人人才的一個資料庫那但是這個在運動部裡面呢我們現在是一直沒有辦法處理到有關於不適合教練公告的這件事情那這是相對於其他部會是稍微我覺得有點瀆職啦所以是不是可以進行相關的調查跟糾正啦我們一起來推動教育運動部來做這件事情好不好好 謝謝"},{"start":355.077,"end":374.987,"text":"那再來還有另外一個事件也是說我們剛剛講不適任教練可是我們剛剛雖然有各個系統的去把他建置起來這些不適任人才資料庫但是其實他們還是一直的轉漏洞因為光我們自己不停的處理從教育部去鎖他從運動部去鎖他這些人後來留下了地下經濟"},{"start":376.648,"end":389.503,"text":"流向了地下經濟等於是說他自己開了一個工作室沒有登記我們根本查不到這個人可是這個人還是持續的在接觸我們的孩子所以其實我去年就一直在主張要建立兒少工作證的制度參考澳洲的一個規範來做"},{"start":391.465,"end":415.298,"text":"因為對於任何一個家長來說我們實在是沒有辦法去每次都要等於是說是在看抽獎抽到的是誰這樣子所以是不是可以在兒少工作證制度尚未完成立法之前呢我們可以針對目前的制度空窗提出一個具體的監督跟改善建議那還有這個針對跨部會的一個機制是否也可以有所掌握呢"},{"start":416.358,"end":432.175,"text":"這當然是行政機關的他相關的措施跟處分那我們會把委員的建議帶回去尤其在人權委員會 人權委員會這邊已經有處理我請人權委員會的執行秘書就相關人權委員會處理跟您說明"},{"start":434.925,"end":460.088,"text":"是谢谢委员好关心这个议题那我们其实在去年年底的时候我们有发布一个检讨校园失对生暴力处理机制这一个专案报告那这个专案报告里面我们最后面的建议里面也有提到就是你刚刚说的有关这个儿少就是儿少相关的工作证的这样一个一个制度那我们也是才倾向比较同意这样的一个做法想说明谢谢"},{"start":460.128,"end":478.181,"text":"好 了解 謝謝那再來下一個題目其實是想要講我們的我先講一下這個預算的部分好了啦好不好因為我覺得這個我看到了監察院的預算整個不管在114年稅出預算規模是10.97億"},{"start":481.103,"end":508.735,"text":"人事費呢 約佔8億 佔比極高啦但是原編列的業務費2億4273萬元呢被立法院審查三檢後高達96% 只剩下1092%導致我們的一般行政啦 調查其實根本都沒有辦法做甚至最重要的人權業務那特別是接下來還要做CRC的國際審查那這是非常的重要 那我也有聽到一些團體啦在講 我不知道是不是真的啦 說他們去參加監察"},{"start":510.496,"end":520.839,"text":"院的一些相關諮詢會議都沒有給出席費我不曉得這是真的還是假的這樣子已經落魄到這樣嗎因為這些都是專家學者我覺得他們的時間意見也都非常的寶貴那這是真的嗎"},{"start":523.674,"end":550.548,"text":"報告委員其實在去年我們預算最艱困的時候的確是沒有給出席費但是後續因為有追加預算也謝謝立法院後續有讓我們追加預算那我們後面是有再補回去那但是我們大部分一些案件我們就變成是要用視訊的方式因為沒有辦法支付交通費我們是給最低額的出席費就是兩千元所以是不含交通費那因此很多的會議就變成是要用視訊的方式來辦理"},{"start":551.548,"end":580.247,"text":"了解 那我覺得這個是希望所有的立法院都要聽到因為這些都是專家學者而他們的意見也都非常的寶貴而且他們的意見其實是督促了我們整個國家的制度上面的前進可是我們連一個出席費都沒有辦法給我覺得這是相對不尊重的一件事情所以我認為所有的委員在接下來要做115年的審查或是116年的審查都應該要去考量這一件事情不然我們就會是一直叫監察院做事像民眾黨一直叫藍白一直叫監察院做事我覺得你們也是啞巴吃黃蓮"},{"start":582.549,"end":605.328,"text":"接下來還有一個更重要的部分就是在114年的3月18號我看到你們的新聞稿就是說你們積欠了伊甸基金會委外勞務清潔費用利用未約用以及部分駐點人員失業造成弱勢家庭的經濟困擾及重傷其工作權益這件事情後續還有繼續聘任嗎報告委員我是請秘書處針對這個業務主管來說明"},{"start":609.163,"end":616.692,"text":"報告委員您關心的問題其實在去年3月的時候醫店這一部分我們從原本的15位然後一下減成7位那這7位是單純的身心障礙人員因為這個臨時的狀況我想這些身心障礙家庭可能沒辦法承受"},{"start":626.784,"end":646.461,"text":"那這部分少掉的八個人力其實對我們來說是非常的緊迫那這七位呢只能負責我們公共區域的勞務清潔那至於短缺的到目前為止都是監察院一個很大的要必須要去承受的變成我們所有的機工工友工作量非常的非常的大 對"},{"start":649.803,"end":667.551,"text":"我們也造成一些弱勢家庭的經濟困擾這件事情到現在還是沒有解決那接下來我還想要請教一下伊甸的部分我們有積欠他那時候我們從總共積欠了到7月整個追加預算通過我們總共積欠了100多萬那也是後續才逐步來償還"},{"start":669.832,"end":693.305,"text":"接下來我還有看到一個是跟人身安全有關係的我看起來我會覺得這個好像有點影響到你們上班的安全性就是說我們無法依規定進行高低壓電氣設備消防設備電氣及飲水機還有建物的公共安全的檢查因為這畢竟是一個滿年久的一個建物我有點擔心這會不會影響到你們的工作安全"},{"start":694.065,"end":709.361,"text":"再來我也看到就是說沒有預算來修善辦公廳設跟機電設備也嚴重的影響你們的建物使用安全造成無障礙身價平台無法使用這個是真的嗎我是不是也請秘書處主管來跟您回覆"},{"start":711.223,"end":727.894,"text":"包委員那您剛所提的這個部分確實都是存在也是真實的那尤其在機電方面不管是升降梯電梯還有高低壓飲水設備其實這是法規所規定的那這部分呢後來在7月追加預算的時候就法定的部分"},{"start":728.374,"end":751.131,"text":"其實還有甚至有更多的稅金我們都是用欠款的方式那就是用欠款積欠的方式來度過那這一部分然後所以呢有關安全的部分我們在115年的預算裡面也編列了下去因為消防安全這一部分老舊已經將近40年了消防安全嗎這一部分涉及公共安全是我們比較擔憂的"},{"start":752.972,"end":780.561,"text":"好我想剛剛您的回覆上面我們都可以非常清楚聽到就是說你們的建物安全人身安全公共工作安全其實都蠻嚴重危急蠻嚴重的我們必須要來關注那我想因為也希望社會大眾還有我們的立委們可以了解因為在裡面工作的每一個都是我們優秀的公務員也有可能是我們的朋友有可能是我們的兄弟姊妹親人等等的這些人的工作安全其實是非常需要去維護的特別是這也"},{"start":781.461,"end":799.154,"text":"違法就是我們有一個職安位其實是有要去守護我們在勞工從事工作的一個工作安全所以我在想我做一個結論就是說在憲法63條裡面立法院有議決法律案預算案戒嚴案大赦案宣戰案等等其他重要事項之權利"},{"start":801.736,"end":830.877,"text":"我們立法院有審查刪減凍結的權利但這個權利不該是無限擴充的對於機關的基本運作應該還是要有基本的維持而不是大筆一揮就忽略了這一些跟人身安全有關係的預算所以我希望說在今年的審查的時候大家都可以理性的務實的讓我們的監察院可以繼續的運作不要犧牲我們所有公務員的一個人身安全 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有請我們監察院黃秘書長"},{"start":15.813,"end":42.974,"text":"好 請黃秘書長秘書長好有幾個問題我想來就教監察院你現在來看的話是很尷尬的一個機關不管是立法院或者是外界其實很多人也認為說監察院一個國家裡面的一個制度何去何從該把監察院把它給廢掉大家覺得是一個盲腸的一個機關就這些話聽在秘書長你的"},{"start":45.82,"end":73.745,"text":"你會不會覺得有點感觸我沒有感觸我只是覺得監察權絕對要繼續進行下去只是說他過去大家在討論的議題應該是說這個權利應該獨立成一個監察院還是回歸到立法院其實世界各國只要是三權分立大部分的監察權是附屬在立法院也就是說委員您質詢完之後發現有重大的問題以後進行調查"},{"start":74.585,"end":91.498,"text":"甚至可以提出相關例如彈劾等等的懲戒然後再送到懲戒法院去進行司法的訴訟如果有失職或是違法的公務人員予以免職、停職、降級、減俸等相關的懲處"},{"start":96.341,"end":116.738,"text":"這個是應該一整套的配套秘書長你提的是另外一個層次的問題但是本席在問的就是說其實在國會裡面各個政黨其實都是主張把監察院給廢掉可是大家的看法怎麼樣去廢那大家的看法有所不同民主進步黨我相信連秘書長你過去的一個主張也認為"},{"start":117.378,"end":132.655,"text":"那就修憲嘛 就來修憲我們當然是尊重 完全尊重修憲的結論那當然 完全尊重所以廢監察院的進度裡面可是你現在又碰到一個問題 就尷尬了監察院現在29個嘛 第六屆好像是不足 現在是26"},{"start":135.741,"end":159.282,"text":"二十五,法定是二十九嘛,那你現在二十五位那第六屆就到今年的七月底就結束了,就全部都離任了接下來全部的人又要另一波新的提名嘛那如果假設總統來提名,那你這個國民黨主張他就認為這個全部都不要,人就不用再補了"},{"start":159.83,"end":179.217,"text":"那台灣民眾黨他們立場也很清楚各個政黨其實都很清楚但主張會有所不同那結果好來了會產生一個狀況監察院這一屆7月31號全部結束以後你說5月份開始提名那送到立法院來那以現在的政治局勢來看的話通殺啦"},{"start":180.137,"end":187.979,"text":"就是還不會過關啦那不會過關問題來了你去把他看我為什麼說你們尷尬立法院就把你預算全部砍光光說那監察院那盲腸那不好那吃尿病聽起來我意思說你這樣會有一個感觸但是你去把他看這個在野黨其實把預算砍光光說是一個盲腸機關轉過頭來你看他又跑到你們那邊去說這個卓院長喔卓榮泰不附屬喔已請監察院來彈劾又很看重你們了所以"},{"start":208.664,"end":220,"text":"老百姓其實我一直認為監察院還是一個老百姓深淵的一個地方還是有這樣的一個功能可是碰到國內在政治鬥爭的時候監察院你就變成尚方寶劍如果要去背革的孫子"},{"start":226.988,"end":253.996,"text":"所以我是覺得說這個感觸我是指這一方面但是司法院大法官的一個釋字的632號的一個解釋裡面也確實確保整個監察院的實質的一個存續跟正常的一個運行他認為是憲法憲政機關責無旁貸的一個職責除非你去走修憲的一個路可是我有幾個問題要請教就是說如果現在都沒有任何配套"},{"start":254.736,"end":258.74,"text":"把它廢掉了以後 實質上讓它停擺啦都不會通過了"},{"start":260.646,"end":281.814,"text":"那個停擺造成的損害 秘書長你有要向社會做一個說明嗎譬如說 我很擔心就是你這個國家人權委員會那你也是在監察院現在的一個所在那如果說監委沒有辦法繼續來順利的一個任命的話那你現在對我國所推動的各項的人權調查國際人權公約這樣的衝擊會有什麼樣的一個打擊 請教"},{"start":287.556,"end":305.237,"text":"如果依照現在比如說委員不通過或是類似像預算三零這反而是一種廢監察權我們剛才一直在講到說外界說要廢監察院可是你如果沒有委員沒有預算是不是真正的權利的行使反而就不見了"},{"start":305.817,"end":325.639,"text":"那不見的情況之下他傷害的反而是我們要協助的人民我們一屆有十萬個陳情這十萬個陳情需要監察院來替他們找出行政機關的問題甚至有些是弊案來解決問題懲罰這些公務人員也就是說整次關針"},{"start":327.14,"end":350.035,"text":"有些在國家人權委員會他有許多人權上面要去維護的地方因為沒有錢沒有委員反而任何的行政處分我們都不能進行在這種情況之下反而是廢了監察權他不是廢院沒有錯但是廢了權讓整個權都沒有辦法執行的時候反而不是人民的福氣沒有人當然就沒辦法來行使這樣的一個執權這是一定的可是呢"},{"start":357.14,"end":382.69,"text":"也有一些問題啊 監察院自己本身啊你有沒有覺得看錯地方了你像譬如說啊 公視 針對第五屆跟第七屆公視董事的延宕監察院應該兩天去跟他們糾正文化部啊 對吧文化部也是我要理你啊 問題到現在也沒有真正解決啊上個禮拜四你看那個董監 董監事的這個審查委員會的八名審查委員現在人家聯名跟立法院院長韓國瑜說我們請辭喔"},{"start":384.71,"end":404.838,"text":"你去把它看這種情況嘛你看從第五屆的董事由第四屆延任長達968天第七屆董事第六屆延任也高霸歸綱審查委員的消極資格條件同意權門檻的計算方式是否採記名投票是否可以委託代理審查委員有誰來召開是立法院還是文化部"},{"start":405.658,"end":421.909,"text":"這都長期失靈了,你去跟他說,他也不會理你,你給他糾正喔,所以說監察院對這種以糾正,他不甩你沒有去改善的機關,現在大家在跟你們說,你給他糾正也不好,你們有補嗎?還是你們只能顛倒為止而已"},{"start":426.997,"end":440.475,"text":"其實我們這兩個兩次的這個所謂的那個任命的狀況我們都有糾正案那糾正案甚至到現在我們都還是在追蹤行政機關要切實的改善這問題那當然"},{"start":442.558,"end":466.421,"text":"是不是法治相關的問題就必須要行政機關他來面對讓這個問題能夠解決包括我們監察院現在假設沒有權沒有人沒有委員的時候當然也會產生類似的狀況所以我們也期待在未來在監察職權的行使上面能夠讓我們能夠為著針對人民的需要來進行監察權的行使"},{"start":466.961,"end":493.767,"text":"這個都不忍苛責啦 因為以現在的政治氣氛來看的話監察院並不是一個強勢的一個機關啦所以啊 就像秘書長所講的整個監察權的一個形式啊 就會產生這麼大的一個落差我現在 以前的監察院就不是這樣咧以前的監察院你真的殺他 嚇嚇他 打他 把他撲下去所以你把他撲下去之後 不會理你我再舉一個例子啊 你跟台大 拆文資法"},{"start":496.136,"end":513.488,"text":"這個起源地,我們監察院的調查的一個作為,你看看過去三年喔,因為都更改革開發的推進,溫州街那個地方啊,我看很多台大老師都住那個地方,五十二巷,日式公寓,那個宿舍啊,反覆的一再上演,叫一間又聽一間,這種抗爭的行動啊。"},{"start":516.71,"end":539.95,"text":"那我們眼睜睜的去看著兩位對台灣學術跟文資界有奠基貢獻的領袖文資法之父 大家講的就是成吉祿跟台灣島史觀海洋性格提出的提出者曹永和兩個人在溫州街的故居啊 你看這照片喔2024年跟2025年相繼被宣告不具文資價值"},{"start":540.931,"end":559.247,"text":"在四個月內火速拆除引起文史團體的不滿那也促使監察院去決議調查釐清我是覺得這個都非常諷刺就是說這個對台灣文化歷史記憶的一個刪除然後也意味著對文資保存意識的一個退步那"},{"start":560.59,"end":586.991,"text":"這個都是過去文資的一個推動者他本席的意思就是說如果任由這種具備高度歷史精神指標的建物被系統性的拆除那你怎麼去面對過去在艱難環境下保護台灣文化的這些前輩我為什麼會提出這樣的一個問題就是說監察院針對此案我覺得可以更強力的一個作為"},{"start":588.328,"end":605.967,"text":"老闆你看台大,不知道要怎麼去批評,你知道嗎?台大現在校方坐擁369棟50年以上的建物,其中具備文資身份者68棟,位具文資身份者301棟。"},{"start":607.629,"end":625.531,"text":"這個你們也跟我說你們責任保存的責任重大你們現在都消極維護積極去拆除你們跟他下這個很好玩你們跟他說他們都是消極維護但是很積極在拆除那也就是說台大他本身的想法就很簡單我都沒有錢"},{"start":627.473,"end":648.319,"text":"檢查案你跟他說有啦 你有兩百個校務基金啦但是他投入這些錢 投入文資的維護的經費這百分之零點三 這你如果講得很清楚但重點就是說 本席的看法就是說校方還是一樣把檢查案看衰無視檢查案調查意見 甚至以安全為由火速拆除"},{"start":649.942,"end":659.651,"text":"這種有歷史文化意義的故居實在都是應該好好去檢討的一個必要監察院後續你們還有什麼手段"},{"start":661.943,"end":686.372,"text":"因為您提到的這個案子還在整個調查中還在整個追蹤中所以還沒有結案在沒有結案的時候因為秘書長在這邊依照法令的限制我們沒辦法針對還沒有結案的個案來跟您做說明但是我們監察院的委員以及進行調查的協查的同仁一定會基於公平正義的原則把這個案子好好辦下去"},{"start":688.247,"end":715.373,"text":"這就是在說一個社會到底是否願意為整個記憶來承擔成本那其實文化保存最常被誤解的地方就是它常常說好像是這一些保存者就看中這些文化資產的人是反對改變那但是真正的保存它倒不是拒絕未來而是拒絕只有一種的未來所以文化保存"},{"start":716.223,"end":743.866,"text":"太重要了 本席提這個只有一個一個關鍵就是認為說監察院其實喔 雖然現在得到人質同意權得到日本人給你們看衰 得到國政黨給你們看衰但是就像秘書長你所講的你這個監察權的一個行使裡面喔該去把它發揮到對強度喔尤其是公視這 尤其是台大這喔你若沒有一個比較強勢的作為喔"},{"start":744.758,"end":755.118,"text":"你談這個監察權慢慢不是只有消滅在這段期間裡面呢你會發現你毫無作為是對不起這個社會的喔好不好是 謝謝委員長好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168544","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168544","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ec77822e2e6eae34672572a025f9991354b0245b1feb43225bca6d85ad377ff6ffb1ffb47bf31ea5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭正鈐","委員發言時間":"10:23:08 - 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謝謝主席我想請一下我們國發會主委葉俊賢然後運動部政次黃啟黃還有我們國家運動產業發展中心董事長鄭仁傑謝謝好 請主委 次長跟主任請"},{"start":32.111,"end":53.424,"text":"委員長主委長 現在主席今天安排了一個有關於運動產業的一個相關的一個詢問尤其是在經濟委員會而不是在教文委員會做這部分所以我就特別關心一下我們整個國發基金因為在去年的時候我們五月修法運動產業法案條例之後呢確實讓就是"},{"start":56.125,"end":69.657,"text":"就是政府的資源其實能夠投入運動產業當中那以前的時候整個運動產業當中的一個融資環境一般都是政府的一個補助那麼因為去年的修法之後讓我們整個運動產業融資環境從運動的"},{"start":72.919,"end":94.986,"text":"政府的補助會變成加上投資的部分進來那昨天的時候其實我看到就是我們主委也特別講針對今天的那個質詢的部分所特別講到說我們那個國發會這邊有三支箭在支持運動產業那我想特別關注我們這一個"},{"start":97.606,"end":111.421,"text":"國發基金要投入運動產業目前是投入了匡列一個百億的一個計畫嘛 對不對那我想請教一下這個匡列這個百億計畫是目前進度到哪裡卡在什麼地方"},{"start":112.675,"end":132.226,"text":"這個百億的計畫的話目前運動部正在研擬投資辦法就是說那運動部要研擬一個運動部運動部運用國家發展基金提撥投資管理辦法那他必須要有這樣的一個辦法之後的話他才能OK那我想請教次長這個去年就已經修過這個法那運動部"},{"start":137.91,"end":150.604,"text":"這邊對於這個運用國發基金的投資管理辦法什麼時候能夠出來因為坦白說國發基金之前至少有六項專項投資都是百匡列百億的那所以說其實對於"},{"start":152.686,"end":170.88,"text":"對於整個運動部這邊這個新的產業來講的時候它不是新的那所以說我們不管是對中小企業的一個部分對於文創的部分對於策略性服務業、策略性製造業還有AI新創的部分還有一個綠色成長進營產業實施方案這些部分其實"},{"start":174.112,"end":194.124,"text":"國發會這邊都已經有很多不同的一些辦法跟方案那我們運動部這邊為什麼拖那麼久大概什麼時候可以把它送出來我們的辦法應該在四月份可以走完我們部裡面的程序然後報到行政院去今年四月份可以報到行政院去四月底可以完成我們部內的一個程序幾月可以完成"},{"start":194.964,"end":209.017,"text":"我們在七月七月可以完成對不對所以說七月之後的時候就是台灣在投資運動產業的部分國發基金就可能會真正產生實際的一個效果對不對"},{"start":214.02,"end":238.991,"text":"那我想請教一下我們那個國家運動產業發展中心的董事長這董事長就說因為你是到時候的執行單位那因為辦法現在還沒有出來我在想說您自己對於未來就是我們的運動產業發展中心在投資運動產業當中的時候你有沒有一些想像"},{"start":240.589,"end":267.294,"text":"好 謝謝委員的資訊針對運動產業發展中心我們大概幾個面向第一個是從關賽的部分從經濟運動怎麼職業化到國際接軌的部分這個是一個發展的方向很重要因為有運動明星可以帶動關賽那這是一個投資的一個重點包含我們很多的職業的球隊或甚至我們的一些國家的球隊怎麼讓他有企業化的精神"},{"start":268.014,"end":283.215,"text":"所以我們到時候其實我們投資運動產業國發經濟是可以投資到職業球隊裡面去我可以這麼理解你的意思嗎這投資的一個方向但是它必須是一個准公司的形式理解OK針對這個部分我在想說"},{"start":284.196,"end":294.989,"text":"本席他們關心台灣運動產業的發展所以對於這個部分雖然辦法還沒有出來可是我們也特別關心就是我們這個中心對於未來整個台灣運動產業能夠有哪些實體的一個"},{"start":298.933,"end":320.469,"text":"提升跟注意那之後的時候我們本協會會繼續關注這個問題那我接下來想要特別注意的是運動部這邊因為台灣的運動協會其實長期都有一些選訓不公財務不透明人事長期壟斷還有忽視選手權益的一個問題產生那我們去年的一個"},{"start":321.269,"end":344.31,"text":"我們前年國民體育法修正完之後2024年修正完之後的時候基本上讓行政的權利是能夠更介入我們的一個單項運動的協會所以我這邊想要特別請教一下因為李洋部長他上來之後因為他本身運動員出身他也特別強調要改善運動協會的一個管理的一個問題所以我想請教一下"},{"start":345.231,"end":371.305,"text":"因為那個之前從2024年就是協會的一個單價協會的爭議事項不斷的產生最近的一項部分的時候是今年中華女足18名球隊發起聯署要求更換更換太極總教練這個事情那這個部分我們目前怎麼樣子去處理然後另外一個部分就是女足工會他們也特別表示就是"},{"start":372.625,"end":389.937,"text":"對於整個協會的財務監管集合還是有很多的問題那麼希臘運動部這邊對於從前年開始的亞洲杯還有去年10月到現在足協基竊的球員職員的交通費薪資帶電款都還沒有還那請問這個部分"},{"start":394.241,"end":410.179,"text":"運動部這邊怎麼去處理怎麼樣子對於單項運動協會可以給他們更好的一個管理對於整個球員能夠有更多的一個保障可不可以請次長回答一下謝謝委員對協會治理這件重大議題的關心的確這個問題已經很久了"},{"start":412.762,"end":428.624,"text":"那目前我們對於協會特別是在財務管理上面我們已經規劃了會有密度相當高的兩年至少是兩年一次以往是四年一次的財務的集合我們希望透過專業人士的介入讓他們的財務能夠更加的透明"},{"start":429.085,"end":446.89,"text":"我們也規劃讓他們能夠每年度的把他們的財務對外的公佈體育部對單項協會管理這邊的時候之後再給本席一個很詳細的狀態那我們本席如果說對於單項協會部分我也會跟運動部這邊來做一個特別的一個要求那我最後第一個問題就是對於體育班的部分"},{"start":447.79,"end":473.889,"text":"體育班的部分怎麼樣讓他們的選手他們不只是選手同時也是一個適當的一個學生讓他們在人生的規劃跟整個職財規劃當中的時候不會因為運動而造成了一些就是銜接不上的地方我希望這個部分希望體育部跟教育部這邊能夠去好好討論那我們找人到本席辦公室這邊來做個說明好不好好 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謝謝主席有請交通部陳部長請陳部長部長好委員好其實今天在討論這個問題對我們的立場是我們根本像世界各國一樣無法控制這個問題的走向所以我們真的是只能談發生我們要如何去應變所以我們在今天整個專題的報告大概就是"},{"start":32.458,"end":49.597,"text":"所有委員跟大家來討論發生什麼樣的情況能夠多做什麼事情首先第一個很多委員都說了當然中東戰事發生到現在原油的價格在波動一個大幅成長之後隨著消息面是談還是不談是打還是不打"},{"start":54.122,"end":69.816,"text":"那不斷的造成原油一個波動當然相關的副產品也造成了非常大的挑戰然後海峽的一個封鎖讓很多的原油的船隻根本出不來那就台灣現在受到影響也謝謝中油我在這邊謝謝你們"},{"start":72.358,"end":90.371,"text":"中油現在超過一百億台塑聽說也二三十億自行吸收那我們整個台灣的一個油價相對的是漲幅吸收蠻多的不過還是漲目前看了無鉛汽油從三月初到"},{"start":91.432,"end":112.928,"text":"4月13號大概漲了17%那柴油的部分從3月1號26點幾到現在31塊也是漲了大概16%那整個造成了一個真的依靠加油這個油作為一個生財工具主要成本的這樣的一個產業包括很多公共運輸造成了非常大的一個"},{"start":114.53,"end":121.836,"text":"衝擊那整體來說一下來對於我們這個公共運輸面除了中油力挺之外我們有什麼樣的應變方案"},{"start":123.806,"end":145.835,"text":"像委員報告在公共運輸的部分行政院已經有指示在國內的公共運輸我們目前票價都盡量不要去影響到民眾所以也就是不調漲那不調漲他一定有他的條件除了說中油來吸收之外例如說以航空燃油來講的話我們拜託中油從44在國內航空的供給的這個油的價格調降到28那不過這個部分也是會由交通部這邊來編列預算來還給中油這個部分我們會來做努力"},{"start":149.096,"end":173.281,"text":"那另外對於公車的部分也是公路客運的部分目前已經快要碰到那個必須要調漲票價的點那如果真正碰到的時候業者會提出申請那我們也會讓他做成本上面的調漲但我們對民眾的一般的那個票價不會受到影響為什麼因為交通部會提出一個票價的補貼票差的部分由交通部這邊來吸收那貨運的部分目前他們也有在提出"},{"start":174.301,"end":197.526,"text":"這個可能要調漲的這個想法那這個部分我們正在審議跟討論當中那我們也希望說在我們整體的這個貨運的價格不要調整的狀況底下他在我們核定的這個貨運的價格下面來做浮動那這樣我們會准許的那另外對於海海運的部分其實我們也在做這方面跟剛剛所講的其他公共運輸都一樣如果有需要票價的補貼都由交通部這邊來想辦法好"},{"start":201.471,"end":226.882,"text":"剛剛你特別也說到不管是陸海空運輸不管是屬於私人的或者我們公共運輸其實都一樣我們整個油品的一個上漲最近的一個消息航空來油上漲122%這我讓《京津日報》這樣報告我不知道這麼正確反正大家都知道漲了很多靠怎麼樣一個補貼怎麼樣一個吸收要想辦法"},{"start":227.762,"end":253.773,"text":"那在整個露營遊區客運啊甚至遊覽車的一個部分啊他們主要是吃柴油那柴油的部分呢從3月1號到4月13號也大概上漲16%那這樣的一個遊覽車或大客車其實燃油的成本啊大概都超過三分之一啊事實上是蠻吃重的所以我也接到很多電話啦蠻辛苦的那海運的部分當然這個部分也持續的在上漲"},{"start":254.873,"end":271.093,"text":"那我就請教一下部長這國際的情勢說真的不要說其他大國都沒有辦法掌握啦所以來問大家說什麼時候可以結束我覺得沒有必要這樣問了那我們講在應變的過程中我要提醒幾件事第一個現在很多的"},{"start":271.974,"end":292.906,"text":"客運業者包括公車好了 國道客運 公路客運這些業者這個對於因為前幾年減班減路線已經減一大堆了民眾已經非常不方便了千萬不要因為在這一波你知道吧這個這個最後一波造成更大的一個影響首先第一個"},{"start":294.011,"end":317.452,"text":"了解一下我問了工會啊光國光啊國光客運啊因為本身就是在那個邊緣啊我們都覺得他很危險財務啊各方面有點欠東欠西的我很擔心啊對不對你最後一個危機如果沒有協助他處理的話可能會出大事國光客運我們就了解3月份啊3月1號到3月31號這一個月咧他的油錢啊"},{"start":321.394,"end":344.05,"text":"比平常的月份多了六百萬差不多六百萬每天多二十萬那本身的他們的一個財務就不是很好所以我們了解了公衛說對他們的一個壓力非常大我相信你也知道但我只是舉個數字把反應到底發生了什麼事情那第二個要考量的問題就是說因為台灣的一個油品現在主要的除了中油"},{"start":344.969,"end":364.818,"text":"之外台塑台塑當然還好也謝謝他們不能光謝謝中油也謝謝台塑石油他們也配合目前的政策都是配合配合不管是中油國家政策來做調整但是我們比較擔心因為什麼時間可以結束我們真的不知道如果它真的變成中期長期"},{"start":365.979,"end":384.975,"text":"在國家的工具預算可以調整的過程中我們要去思考一件事可能私人的油品公司他不見得到了中長期還可以跟你弄到尾這個部分會影響到不管台塑石油他的一個想法第二個台塑石油他的所有的加盟店他的一個做法"},{"start":385.535,"end":403.891,"text":"那很可能做法是什麼 就是減法嘛 減法就第一個好吧 我還是開了 我還是開了每一天我們就供應一點點 現在很多國外在排隊啊 排很久我就限量供應 這第一種第二種咧 我減少工時啊 我根本就不開了現在我們現在台灣有這種 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還需要再另訂新辦法嗎有 因為在這個動保法第4條第3條要明訂那麼前項這些人用藥品怎麼樣用到這個動物身上的相關的使用管理規定它要由主管機關訂制"},{"start":110.02,"end":136.278,"text":"那你們現在沒有訂的情況底下不是反而是你要上路之後才引發問題沒有上路反而是沒有問題你現在是這樣子應該是這樣講就是說在過去一段時間本來已經在農業部訂的這個授權辦法裡面那麼有提到這個相關的人用藥品要用到動物上面的時候它要經過一些行政程序比如說它怎麼樣成為一個動物保護用藥"},{"start":138.94,"end":158.037,"text":"那麼他的這個申請程序登錄程序是什麼等等那麼但是呢這個程序上可能要再更簡化因為目前所公告的701項這個得用於動物的人用藥品裡面只有這個200多項按照這個辦法來"},{"start":160.078,"end":180.887,"text":"這個申請登錄為動物保護用藥所以還因為一旦成為動物保護用藥的時候藥商就可以直接供應在這個辦法裡面是這樣子定所以就會產生另外還有將近500種的藥品是沒有辦法從藥商直接供應造成剛剛說到取得上的一些不方便性所以這個"},{"start":182.088,"end":192.559,"text":"這個部分包含這個如何成為動物保護用藥的程序如何簡化輔導那麼另外在使用上如何流向的管理去強化這個是關鍵那你們兩個部會已經有共識了嗎"},{"start":196.644,"end":223.311,"text":"有個初步的共識我剛剛提到的就是我們一些初步的共識所以辦法就是新的辦法公告之後可以確保這701項藥品不會經過冗長的行政程序而且也不用再去登記它直接就會被公告變成是動物用藥嗎我們是朝這個對我們朝這個方向對朝這個方向去就直接公告它就是動物用藥那你們現在還有什麼問題是沒有處理的沒有共識的"},{"start":224.071,"end":244.149,"text":"如果有也可以很快就修正辦法不是直接就上路就好了嗎這個真正進行的行政程序是房檢署來進行我知道那你們現在到底還有什麼問題沒有解關鍵就是這701項用藥讓他更快速的直接公告變成是動物用藥嗎不是嗎"},{"start":245.47,"end":272.576,"text":"那你們還有什麼細節或是行政的作業是兩個部會現在喬不定的還需要商議的如果沒有 正常這個辦法可以很快速的公告來局長你說謝謝委員因為原來在這個制度設計的時候其中有一項就是人用藥那你經過登錄以後轉為動保用藥那以目前為止的話我們即便廣度的去邀他但也只有144項然後只有216件"},{"start":274.736,"end":279.798,"text":"那現在的701項如果直接轉為動保用藥那當然我們可以快速來處理這個問題但他的背後有藥證的大概1萬多張所以他可能是會一個爆量那爆量這不僅僅問題是後續假設這1萬多間的藥證701項的話這些我們都要對接到食藥署的相關的資訊那我才有辦法做"},{"start":299.685,"end":327.238,"text":"他的這個紀錄跟流向的管控那如果說這一些我們都沒有辦法掌握的話那麼即便衝出上路了但是會回到那個流向的管理上會失控所以一定要確保我們在後續的這一些都要對接好了我們再上路所以容我們有一點時間跟食藥署把這些的資料庫整個重新建檔然後依照我們要求他填報的"},{"start":328.579,"end":349.323,"text":"資料品項欄位等等都對接清楚所以我們現在已經往這個大方向在做執行了那你需要多少時間你這個新的辦法你們這樣的一個對接還需要多少時間因為那一天開會的時候那部長這邊也也都允諾有共識說這個資料會讓我們來對接所以我們以後最快的時間來跟他對接最快是多快我們也希望說能夠最"},{"start":356.392,"end":366.88,"text":"其實也跟委員報告就是說我們這個誰能回答這題 來 食藥署署長要回答是不是"},{"start":369.274,"end":386.566,"text":"我們其實有一些共識我們也幫忙想了一些辦法就在短期我們在人類用藥的部分可以從我們藥商藥局經商的藥局等等到動物的機構去短期我們只要有運銷紀錄很清楚可以對得起來可是中長期的話因為短期的時候讓公藥就能夠穩定不會斷掉"},{"start":388.607,"end":400.861,"text":"但是中長期的確需要一個資訊的平台那我們在藥品的我們的追追追系統裡面在我們的藥商在我們的中盤商裡面都可以確定所以我們從我們這邊可以抓到出貨的狀況"},{"start":402.591,"end":430.217,"text":"在農業部的部分在使用端在診所在動物醫院裡面的雙方能夠勾肌讓我們最擔心的部分能夠被確保那需要多少時間我問的是需要多少時間那個運銷紀錄應該即刻就可以有運銷紀錄就可以了對 那你整個的勾肌你的那個資料跟委員說明這個大概有兩個層面要處理第一個就是因為他這個辦法要修訂所以修訂他還是需要找相關的stakeholder來討論你們不是現在共識已經很強"},{"start":430.697,"end":460.257,"text":"那個是我們內部的行政作業的公司但是我們還是要聽聽stakeholder包含獸醫師啦包含這些事主大家的意見那麼還有中間可能牽涉到藥商藥局這個還是需要有一些會議討論然後進行法治作業那第二個呢後面的程序上它有兩個程序需要把它資訊的資訊流要把它完備一個是藥品的流向資訊第二個呢是使用的這個登錄因為我們能用藥品多數健保"},{"start":461.278,"end":485.76,"text":"我知道 我要問的就是你們需要多少時間新的辦法 那這個系統因為在目前來講這個農業部這邊的系統是要新建的所以它會比較多一點時間那我們這個系統是ready的只是協助對接所以要多少時間 你們回答不出來這個要看那個房間署的評估署長你們需要多少時間"},{"start":487.179,"end":512.407,"text":"其實以現在來講承辦單位因為這個回到還是落實在基層那以基層來講他整個現在所有的系統要重新重置或者那個其實真的就在花時間那原來他們的評估是希望一年半把整個系統嫁接因為除了食藥署還有那個疾管署疾管署的都要嫁接還有新制那我現在我想我們會盡量縮短就是假設這個順暢的話我覺得再縮短"},{"start":514.428,"end":516.451,"text":"對 如果可以的話我們再把這個系統上趕快對接 然後越早完成我們越早宣告要求就是在你的新辦法還沒有公告上路之前這個動物用藥的藥品絕對不能短缺"},{"start":531.97,"end":548.145,"text":"要供應無虞這是第一件第二件一年內你們這個新的機制一定走中長期你要把它建置是完整的就是從登錄到它的流向管理你是一套完整的制度那如果是這樣代表你前面的辦法你這兩年你根本你們都沒有想到這些問題配套也沒有在做"},{"start":550.307,"end":554.088,"text":"接下來我要問的是食安的問題因為今天這個我們經貿談判辦公室我們的代表是沒有到今天派的是執行秘書經貿談判辦公室來這個徐執密也請上台"},{"start":569.432,"end":586.143,"text":"這一次的ART的談判我們可以看到在食安的部分我們做了非常大的退讓我自己的觀察你的源頭把關已經被破防了食安五環也破功了食安防線棄守我們一個一個來看這一次你們談的成果基本上我們跟美國的經貿談判你可以談但是食品安全為什麼我們對於食品的把關我們要棄守這一點是我非常不能接受的"},{"start":599.392,"end":606.696,"text":"第一個我們過去在管理這個豬肉美豬進口的時候當時的蘇貞昌院長他說我們會有很好的一套的管理措施大家不用怕這個就是我們對於食安的保證第一個最重要的是產地的茶廠從源頭去管理"},{"start":617.982,"end":645.374,"text":"結果這次的談判我要問經貿辦你們的談判怎麼會去同意就是我們可以不用事先這個去茶廠然後就可以進來就可以長驅直入更為人說明這個茶廠這個我們源頭管理還是有的有嗎我們有系統性茶盒跟茶廠那這個部分沒有讓步沒有沒有沒有讓步那為什麼這個出來的報告是這樣子寫就是說美方要求就是沒有茶廠這件事情"},{"start":645.914,"end":672.085,"text":"有有有 查場可以查場我要確定這件事我們去年才去查過啊所以ART簽了之後還是可以查場可以可以可以另外一個我們這兩塊一個叫系統性查核就是整個制度的review第二個就是查場查場非常重要所以我要問的是這個絕對是不能放掉沒有問題的這個沒有改變另外一個是那個秦出肉品的管制措施就是說美方現在說他提供名單我們就要照單全售"},{"start":672.825,"end":695.22,"text":"就是我們不再由防檢署來認定是不是這樣這個系統性查核的概念就是這樣就是用一個國家的它的這個品質管控制度去認可那我們就會就像GMP廠的沒有 過去我們的防檢署還要再認可一遍我們是主權國家怎麼可以是美方開端我們就照單全收"},{"start":696.901,"end":723.661,"text":"所以這個沒有改變嗎對世界各國裡面我們系統性查核確定這個制度對接所以它制度裡面允許的就像我們也希望是我們允許的我們制度裡面允許一樣可以得到但是當對方要求他其實就是要我們的許可的時候我們還是有許可的功能現在是不是沒有了透過系統性查核才能夠有這樣的制度我們跟其他國家也是這樣我們現在是不是沒有許可權了"},{"start":724.975,"end":739.047,"text":"有有有還有最終許可權還是有對不對這一個源頭的管理我覺得非常重要如果是這個棄守我覺得我們的食安源頭就是破防沒有沒有這個還是要經過系統性查核那另外一個就是邊境的逐批查驗"},{"start":740.308,"end":760.146,"text":"我們還可以做到百分之百的逐批查驗嗎美方是不是要求我們要放棄百分之百逐批查驗應該是這樣子講就是說我們現在只有針對美方這個國家做逐批查驗是啊 因為他們還有萊克多巴胺啊但是我們查了這麼多批之後呢都是合格的"},{"start":760.566,"end":778.771,"text":"都是合格所以才會回到常態你的常態是幾%就是它有這個來那個說明一下它是查到有問題的時候才會再增加查核的所以你就不百分之百逐批查驗了嗎我們回到我們常態性的"},{"start":780.572,"end":796.518,"text":"常態性的查驗的話其實是2到10%的查驗因為過去的經驗裡面我們已經查數萬批裡面都是正常人我知道 各位跟委員報告去年我們有萊克多巴胺澳洲的豬腳嘛我親自去看了一趟澳洲的豬腳"},{"start":798.759,"end":822.43,"text":"養豬場 屠宰場等等那個是我在委員會要求的我親自去了 去看了結果我看到有三分之一的台灣整個場面有三分之一台灣的孩子在那邊為這個豬場在努力所謂打工換宿那我們看到他的整個制度化裡面在做這件事情也了解他們的實際上的狀況所以上次也是房檢署跟食藥署共同前去對於這個所以這個是"},{"start":823.91,"end":835.64,"text":"邊境外去除非查驗去查場之後系統性查核到我們邊境就要按照所謂的風險我們現在叫border protection intelligence是會來去判斷的你暫時先不用講我們之所以對於美國的豬肉採取更嚴格的把關是因為我們開放了讓他允許有萊克多巴胺的美豬可以進到台灣來"},{"start":847.37,"end":852.912,"text":"所以當時蘇貞昌院長才說大家放心我會百分之百逐批的查驗我的百分之百逐批的查驗是讓我不會有高過這個比例的收入金混到市場來因為你這個就是開放了你不要把它跟其他國家又混為一談我今天要問的這個就是我們放棄了百分之百逐批查驗這個就是事實嘛"},{"start":871.178,"end":885.631,"text":"是回到我們的風險查核方式啦 按照我們對所有國家進來的我知道 但當時蘇貞昌院長承諾不是這樣子嘛你們現在不要把一般性的查驗又拿回來談我要講的是 你這個已經放鬆但是你的來季的標準 又放寬我們看一下下一張你的這個來季的標準 你的租雜稅 你知道嗎日本是0.04ppm"},{"start":899.343,"end":924.377,"text":"韓國基本上是不得檢出個案是0.01我們這次ART之後你要放寬到0.09ppm這是不是事實我們找到的數據是不是事實那你就是比原來的你的這個是暴增9倍喔那這樣的情況底下你邊境你還不逐批抽那你怎麼知道他有沒有超過這個標準"},{"start":925.698,"end":943.976,"text":"先跟委員報告一下,因為ART裡面的內容其實針對是我們採取的是以國際的標準,以Codex標準,如果Codex沒有訂,才會有另外一部分的一個思考。那我就問你,租雜稅你到底訂多少?我們對於相關的一個規定是以國際對接的一個方式來去計算。那有什麼國際標準?日本0.04ppm,韓國是0.01啊?"},{"start":945.998,"end":968.585,"text":"我們這邊是提到跟CODEX的對接所以就是0.09ppm嘛對,跟CODEX的對接那我要問你的就是你現在豬雜你的來地容許量是暴增9倍你跟原來的是暴增9倍在這樣的情況底下你邊境又不採取百分之百主批查驗然後讓你看一個數字就是美國的豬內臟進到台灣現在如果跟110年比較起來114年已經來到7681公噸"},{"start":976.007,"end":990.551,"text":"我就問你 這一些豬雜 豬內臟 它的流向都流到哪裡去未來ART之後 它是成長的九倍 它的含量是九倍你要不要管制 它是不是流向小吃攤我們還有縣市 就是說鼓勵大家這個台灣豬還舉辦了小吃大賽 還有黑白切今天的這一些豬雜 其實就是黑白切裡面"},{"start":1003.934,"end":1030.667,"text":"我跟委員說明澄清一下這些資訊在這個豬肝豬腎的部分日本韓國新加坡的標準都是跟Codex一致那我們現在也是跟Codex一致也就是說在肝的部分是0.04腎的部分是0.09其他的可食用部分是採取其中較低者我們大概這個標準都會跟Codex是一致"},{"start":1031.325,"end":1046.357,"text":"你的較低者是多少?就是0.09ppm嗎?不不不,我們是肝腎好,那我就問你豬大腸是多少?豬大腸,其他的話我們如果沒有特別去的話就是採肝腎比較低的,就是0.04你豬大腸現在是0.04?對然後那個豬的肝臉呢?豬的肝臉,他是算肌肉啊"},{"start":1058.615,"end":1067.786,"text":"他沒有算在豬雜裡面沒有啊眼頰肉也是肌肉所以0.01肉的是0.01啊所以大腸小腸你現在是0.04但是肝腎是0.09不是肝是0.04腎是0.09這個都是Cortex的標準"},{"start":1074.246,"end":1090.358,"text":"所以你其他沒有比日韓高日韓新加坡都一致你提供一個數據給我沒有問題我們把這國際對照我現在最關切的是我們跟澳洲在澳洲日本韓國新加坡都是一致的甘0.04剩0.09"},{"start":1093.16,"end":1109.085,"text":"好 你這個數據你要確定你是正確的然後你要提供給我因為我們辦公室找到的資料是我們現在是比日韓還要高沒有沒有沒有 我們跟日韓一樣我們是按照Codex的標準他們也是Codex的標準他們兩個的標準也不一樣"},{"start":1109.485,"end":1133.171,"text":"沒有 他們兩個的就是Codex的標準 我們這邊看到的就是好 你把資料提供給我 我會再去核對喔那我要問你的就是 我們現在顯然是放寬然後放寬了之後 我要問你的是我們這一些冷凍的豬雜 你的流向到底流去哪裡我們現在市面上其實都看不到然後它未來的這個含量是變高的 請問它是流向哪裡你們有掌握嗎"},{"start":1135.457,"end":1156.088,"text":"這如果以114年來講7681公噸的豬雜流向流去了哪裡做了什麼食品流到了小吃攤嗎你們到底整個食藥署有沒有掌握流向跟委員報告一下我們其他可食部位的數字與美國的部分那以今年度進來的是有1746"},{"start":1159.39,"end":1174.362,"text":"頓目前今年的數字是這樣那其中我們特別看一下有沒有所謂的豬腎啊的進來其實是都沒有進來對今年度最新的那我們整體的看起來那進口豬是佔百分之八"},{"start":1175.163,"end":1196.491,"text":"我知道 我要知道他的旅遊箱到底去了哪裡因為市面上大家都不知道 你們標示也沒有在做 也沒有人看到跟委員講 我們現在的原料原產地 包裝食品 散裝食品 或者職工場所我們都有去稽查 像今年對不對 去年度我們整個稽查九千多件有兩件沒有標示好的 這兩件都是台灣豬沒有標好"},{"start":1197.671,"end":1202.097,"text":"不管是哪裡不管台灣豬還是國外豬我們通通都會來好那你給我一個報告你要告訴我以114年為例進口的這些雜碎就是豬雜它的流向它的體向它的流向然後那個比例佔多少你們都有掌握對都有掌握把報告提供給我"},{"start":1217.655,"end":1243.65,"text":"因為民眾都不知道那因為這是食安的問題喔你們這一開放之後事實上我們吃的比例就會高我們國人的食用習慣習慣去吃這些內臟所以這個是你們食安要把關好的我覺得民眾有選擇權啦基本上我是反對在這個食安裡面去做讓步的我們台美的經貿經貿的一些交換有很多可以交換但是食品安全不能交換還有最後提醒一個"},{"start":1244.19,"end":1265.276,"text":"基改食品絕對不能進校園絕對不能進校園部長你可以承諾嗎跟委員說明我的立場跟您一樣健康不能退讓所以我們所有的調整跟國際的接軌也都是經過健康風險評估我們來把關的那基改的所有的管理作為沒有任何改變"},{"start":1266.069,"end":1279.36,"text":"不會 不會進校園 我要你承諾不會嘛 這個是很多家長很擔心的怕我們一讓再讓之後 孩子的健康都出賣了這個是絕對不允許的 好 謝謝好 謝謝委員 謝謝王一鳴委員的諮詢"}]}},{"id":"168547","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168547","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ec77822e2e6eae3e7d0d0c6b8a3cc7f61f404ecbec9cddc25bca6d85ad377ffbf58e434f61d1a005ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"10:28:20 - 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做法根據國際法是不可以干預而根據維也納的外交公約的話像這樣的事情是可以列為不受歡迎人物但是我個人知道列為不受歡迎人物當然是比較嚴重一點但是選擇在這樣一個時間點真的非常不恰當"},{"start":60.76,"end":73.204,"text":"畢竟就算我們跟巴西沒有正常的邦交但是你要派人來當然除了邦交之外還有其他希望能夠兩邊互相推展的部分那麼面對這樣的一個狀況外交部做了什麼樣的一個後續的動作"},{"start":78.725,"end":95.575,"text":"報告委員,巴西駐台代表現在正在休假之中,在休假發這樣的一個不當的言論我們第一時間表達我們的強烈的抗議與關切,那麼也當面的約悟他那麼讓他知道這個狀況,我們後續還會演繹相關的一個行動但是這個還是必須要在兼顧雙邊的關係以及可能性,這個外交的合乎這個儀節上面"},{"start":106.741,"end":134.045,"text":"但我想跟委員報告很重要的一個狀況是講說國內的政治領袖對於這個中華民國存在的這個事必須要有一個非常清楚的一個認識不要被外人覺得是有機可乘尤其是中國利用這樣一個機會大肆的宣傳他的這個觀念那我覺得造成這樣一個遺憾其來有致那麼我覺得是說我們一方面那麼對於這個巴西這個最強烈的這個抗議"},{"start":134.805,"end":153.242,"text":"想起相應的一個措施二方面也期待國人都能夠對於中華民國台灣跟中華人民共和國互不隸屬這個事實大家能夠有非常清楚的一個掌握好 我知道對於外交部來講啦除了抗議之外手上沒有什麼武器所以我為什麼要請經濟部上來我記得"},{"start":158.915,"end":173.752,"text":"過去德國也曾經發聲對我們在外交上面給我們穿小鞋那我們就不輸入晶片我剛剛隨便google了一下巴西是台灣黃豆的第二進口國僅次於美國台灣每年進口230到260噸的大豆"},{"start":178.377,"end":199.235,"text":"然後巴西這位代表也曾經講過台灣仰賴的糧食進口當中肉類尤其是牛肉他很希望進口台灣所以本席現在就給你們一個方法台灣為什麼要跟巴西買這麼多的黃豆僅次於美國佔四成請問這個數據經濟部正確嗎"},{"start":203.443,"end":225.34,"text":"包委員這一部分比較涉及到農業部相關的數據好 沒有關係但是以這樣的趨勢正確嗎是第二的大豆進口台灣的國家正確嗎應該那個大體是正確的好 如果是一個把台灣列為中國一部分"},{"start":226.519,"end":236.54,"text":"的一個代表講出這樣的話我們不能有實際上經濟的作為嗎今天的題目當然講的是有關於伊朗的部分但是能不能帶回去研究"},{"start":237.591,"end":263.978,"text":"因為我必須要講喔對於外交部來講他們只能抗議除了抗議之外那就是最嚴重把他趕走但是要顧及到巴西跟台灣之間兩國之間的更多的交流的時候我把他趕出去無濟於事但是台灣有他經濟的影響力跟經濟實力如果過去我們晶片可以不用輸出我們現在是不是我們大豆可以轉用其他的國家來買"},{"start":265.379,"end":279.998,"text":"這樣的一個方法是不是更有效更有效應因為這個影響到的是台灣有需求但台灣不是只需要跟巴西想本席身為國防外交委員我今天就在這裡請不論是外交部經濟部又或是剛剛提到的農委會"},{"start":281.44,"end":303.106,"text":"拿出我們該有的國格以及我們該有的政府的立場我們有武器但是要用就像韓國的事件一樣我們要找出方法來應對不是只是口頭上的抗議因為我當然知道因為台灣在內部關於這個國家認同主權認同的部分有些人願意跪"},{"start":304.326,"end":319.338,"text":"但是我們身為執政黨我們身為行政團隊我們身為外交單位我們身為主管機關我們不能跪我們甚至於不能躺平所以在這個部分本席給你提出一個方法你們可以不可以回去研議"},{"start":320.419,"end":347.768,"text":"我們當然也要跟委員報告所以不管在糧食不管在能源上面多元化一定是一個必要的一個因素那麼所以是說現在我們的重要的邦交國巴拉圭他也很希望能夠跟我們就黃豆上面有更多的合作那我們也現在跟這個農委農業部密切的一個配合希望能夠在這個議題上面發揮這個總和外交的一個理念讓我們能夠第一方面"},{"start":348.188,"end":376.7,"text":"就能源就這個這個糧食上面能夠有多元化的一個來源二方面是說能夠強化我們跟這個盟邦這個巴拉圭畢竟是我們在南美最重要的一個盟邦也是唯一的一個盟邦所以我們要跟他講講關係所以剛才說到的是說肉品我們現在從巴拉圭進的這個牛肉那麼豬肉現在還要研議這個其他的這個東西這的確都是構成我們的整個糧食韌性的一個部分"},{"start":377.06,"end":398.93,"text":"所以很感謝委員的一個建議喔 那外交部一定是回去不是啦 我們不是演繹 我們現在已經知道有這個狀況我們現在要強化的是跟跨部會的一個合作讓我們這樣的一個vision 像委員這樣的一個想法能夠得到實現好 所以本席希望給你們一個時間點你們多久以內可以召開這樣的一個會議然後可以給我一個具體的方向不要是今天質詢完了 然後就當作沒事"},{"start":401.491,"end":403.894,"text":"因為我認為這個就是挑釁既然挑釁我們就有作為我把你繼續留下來我也不會上綱道把你列為不受歡迎為物因為沒有用口會時不會經濟對於這些國家來說才是重點因為本席要特別強調中國"},{"start":417.512,"end":425.717,"text":"在我們的這個拉美地區的友邦不斷的都是透過滲透以及經濟利誘但是我必須要說中國現在自己的經濟下滑跟我們在經濟的成長的表現完全是只有二分之一他也沒有那麼多的經濟動能所以從巴拉圭、薩爾瓦多再到宏都、拉斯尼加瓜通通吃了悶虧所以在這樣的狀況底下我自己認為你們必須要有積極的動作有動作才能夠"},{"start":444.887,"end":451.932,"text":"有效果所以可不可以給我一個時間點我們要來定我們這個定期在這個行政院下面都有一個經濟外交工作小組那麼這是一個跨部會的會議我們會把這個議題帶到下一次的這個經濟外交工作小組上面同時外交部當然會繼續的那個表達我們的抗議也尋求一些其他創意的方法來跟他們表達我們對於他們在這個對於我們的主權的論述上面有一個不恰當的一個說法"},{"start":475.227,"end":500.112,"text":"好 那麼下一次開會是什麼時候我們下一次這個經濟工作這要看行政院的進度 不然我們會請那個是不是在進行好 那我希望你們一個月內先給我一個報告給我們外交委員會一個報告看看你們到底在這個跨部會當中因為監統委員會沒有來那我知道對經濟部來說因為這個部分就是這樣我再一次強調台灣不可以很跨部啦我們自己要站著"},{"start":500.692,"end":524.801,"text":"跟他們做交易做談判是爭回我們自己的面子絕對不能躺平好嗎當然那我們一定是這個跟平等待我的其他的國家平等的一個交往互相尊重那也是這是榮邦計畫的一個重要的一個重點也感謝這個委員佩服委員這個非常完整的一個認識也謝謝委員的這個指導我們一定這個遵辦好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168546","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168546","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ec77822e2e6eae3cf227c23b56ec0e18ea785098ebfecd525bca6d85ad377ffbf58e434f61d1a005ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇清泉","委員發言時間":"10:17:57 - 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就是說在 當然最近那個美國有宣布他是對這個專利期內的藥跟其原料藥才課稅所以其他的這個學名藥的原料藥還有學名藥那麼到美國還是沒有關稅啦"},{"start":76.994,"end":98.47,"text":"阿川普是公算的,我是要撒謊的阿我們現在的原料藥,台灣也有幾個藥廠在做原料藥阿因為成本很高阿因為我們偉大的施護長跟健保署我們沒有供應到美國的專利藥的原料藥所以對我們沒有影響阿如果是學名藥的原料藥?也沒有課稅"},{"start":99.511,"end":120.041,"text":"那他現在要扣是扣專利藥就是那個新藥啦專利藥集齊原料藥集齊原料藥所以我們台灣沒有在做這個專利藥輸美的只有一個啊這個藥廠已經在美國也要設廠了所以也不受影響所以他在說什麼跟我們沒有關係沒有關係沒有影響好那第二個問題我們"},{"start":127.372,"end":135.821,"text":"最近我們部長有講說因為我們的原料藥大部分都來自印度跟中國大陸對不對原料藥嘛對全球都這樣日本、韓國、台灣是要做一個料"},{"start":140.795,"end":168.042,"text":"聯盟來自己來開發這行得通嗎應該這麼說就是各國現在也都重視到這個多元分散那個原料要來源所以我們也有一個叫做這個國家藥品韌性整備計畫裡面就打算要來鼓勵在台灣開發原料要但是我們也不可能全部的原料要都自己做因為這個是一個高汙染的產業那也沒那麼多"},{"start":169.122,"end":197.008,"text":"所以需要跟其他的友好國家大家建立這個非紅供應鏈所以大概有這樣的構思在努力因為顏料最原始的顏料就是礦區出來然後再去墮碎然後再去分提煉分解那個一定是要國家很大眾生夠因為那是污染還會有時候要爆炸所以"},{"start":198.459,"end":221.436,"text":"一定是那種澳洲、中國大陸、印度這種大國才有辦法我們這裡只能看中間的原料藥的後面那一段我們也有原料藥廠,我們有幾家原料藥廠再來因為時間有限,我不想像王毅民這樣講那麼久第二個問題"},{"start":224.227,"end":238.999,"text":"馬鈴薯因為現在所有的館長大家都很歡樂的馬鈴薯以前是如果化解我們小時候在健康期就知道化解後它會臭香臭香裡面一定有一些化學藥物品"},{"start":239.793,"end":248.418,"text":"那這個叫做ソラリン嘛 它會閃成ソラリン那ソラリン怎麼會翻成龍奎簡這個是誰翻的啊 哪一個天才啊我們這些外來語到底就是喪在翻裂的啊你看日本的外來語是都很有藝術的我們這個ソラリン 這個是什麼東東啊叫做龍奎簡 這是石耀書 江志剛你發明的喔"},{"start":269.827,"end":283.18,"text":"好那這種以前是整批退現在美國要求我們要廠子裡面拿回去然後自己分 把餐廳吃掉就可以做洋芋片 什麼這樣做"},{"start":287.181,"end":314.868,"text":"我們是這樣第一個要先強化這個源頭管理所以在這個美國他在那邊要出口之前他就要去強化檢疫規定包含要噴灑這個叫做那個發芽劑那個發芽的抑制劑他要噴灑然後要去通過我們這個房檢署相關的這個檢疫規定所以說完成OK了之後他才可以上傳"},{"start":316.108,"end":342.43,"text":"那因為如果在這個傳運過程當中有發生這個腐爛的情形的話當然如果你整批太高的比例還是會退運的那如果只是部分的話那它就經過特殊的封裝處理到加工地點再去做剔除啦 是這樣因為我們屏東黃山齁 它仿良那邊的芒果要銷日本那芒果的皮不薄而已啊"},{"start":343.243,"end":359.597,"text":"如果那些藥丟兩下去,就一點點黑掉所以就要烘過,燻煙燻,可能部長也不知道以後有機會帶你去看看啦有的是用那五十五度的水把它燙過,這樣它那兩下去會死去如果不去跟日本,如果有電工,能補出來日本是整個在消費"},{"start":368.064,"end":385.943,"text":"整批的 整貨物就給你銷毀所以沒有地銷的所以你們在把關 你們在把關要 要 要 要 嚴格 不能這樣他美國講什麼 你做什麼不會 因為他進到台灣之後加工處理的這個地點也是要我們許可的"},{"start":386.443,"end":398.999,"text":"所以它的那個加工那個食品加工的那個許可再製的話我們會特別的去強化管理因為這個跟進鏈它如果發芽之後產生那個收納率這個"},{"start":401.383,"end":423.444,"text":"成年人吃了 其實老闆娘嘛 欸 孩子啊 血抽筋欸你神經系統受不了欸 有的翹起來欸所以你做醫 我們都醫生 你就要把關耳神欸不要發生命案 那時候你也受不了囉那第二個就是剛剛有講基改的食品不能進校園 因為現在"},{"start":425.519,"end":446.644,"text":"現在的國中國小現在的營養午餐現在各縣市好像都承諾要免費由政府來支出台北市一餐是75塊我們屏東市57塊我們屏東比較小一點就對了好這些基改的這個食品你剛剛有承諾說不會進嗎不會進校園嗎不會喔那有入華的嗎有入華的嗎對學校衛生法"},{"start":453.689,"end":477.861,"text":"有嘛對 剛剛委員也知道那再來就是含萊克多巴胺的也不能進校園 現在沒有進校園沒有 現在是百分之百用國產豬那這個不要再讓他們進到校園去是的 四年來百分之百百分之百這個很重要 這個不能開玩笑的所以這三樣都要很小心好 來 再來黃田署站起來"},{"start":484.366,"end":512.139,"text":"我們現在的動物用藥跟人的要流用是在我第八屆的時候那個時候部長你現在做醫事司長那個時辰在這裡就在這裡檢討幾行幾行要讓人 人可以養 那些動物可以養我們現在的動物用藥全台灣起 從娘到起到我的毛小孩總共兩百八十幾萬隻 要到三百萬隻三百四"},{"start":516.261,"end":527.566,"text":"所以現在照顧毛小孩的這些年輕人,他們把它當作是家人所以我們健保的可能不是2300萬人,是要2670萬人"},{"start":532.828,"end":557.648,"text":"這樣可以同意嗎這30%是動物用藥 70%都是流用的那現在開放到剛剛講是200多種了是不是現在要開放的話都701項還會再增加我要替這些毛小孩的事主講講話因為"},{"start":560.542,"end":576.061,"text":"簡報是因為石崇洋部長跟健保署強砍一直砍一直壓所以健保的藥價都很合理很低所以大家都這樣犀利現在豆腐用藥進木前時"},{"start":583.342,"end":597.45,"text":"我們醫師是涵蓋中醫、西醫、亞醫那獸醫是農業不發的證照所以獸醫開出來的處方是獸醫師自己調劑、自己給藥、自己收費沒有藥師嘛"},{"start":599.591,"end":617.931,"text":"要是沒有介入嘛,那你現在這些毛小孩的素質,他們的負擔太大嘛,我覺得他們的業務太貴嘛,他們如果像健保這樣搶的,應該很合理的啦,所以現在的問題是出於錢的問題嘛,你一直貴,"},{"start":621.355,"end":641.173,"text":"吸血管用藥 癌症用藥 這些訴訟怎麼負擔得起呢那你現在是想把這些獸醫師開處方因為他的獸醫的診所什麼也好他沒有辦法備那麼多種藥嘛所以他都處方幾個月叫他去藥局尿嘛藥局尿大家都睜一隻眼閉一隻眼嘛所以有時候"},{"start":648.787,"end":661.162,"text":"藥局來跟便宜調約說要給動物用的,我都搞不清楚你現在是怎樣規範所以主席今天提這個題目非常好至少要把它釐清嘛,我認為"},{"start":663.22,"end":679.825,"text":"對 完全 這個委員講的我完全同意啦就是在這個動物的這個治療上面是沒有醫藥分業它就是由這個獸醫師直接就可以提供藥物啦那只不過是因為現在它用到了人用藥"},{"start":680.805,"end":709.528,"text":"那人用藥基於我們是主管機關的立場必須要掌握流向啦那麼一方面也要注意到這些用藥的安全包含不要因為濫用造成抗藥性的問題這個會回過頭來危害到人體健康跟我們未來使用藥物的選擇那另外也有一些比較高風險的藥物的管理像麻醉的用藥啦這些鎮定安眠的用藥那麼也避免人跟動物之間"},{"start":710.709,"end":734.084,"text":"然後老來老去,不知道怎麼回到去啊所以上次我們這個過去健保管得這麼好所以這個是不希望有這個藥品管理的漏洞啦把這一塊納到健保署來管理可以啊可以嗎食藥署來管理啊我真的很擔心,因為我是臨床醫師我是心臟科醫師你是急診科,你腎臟科"},{"start":740.519,"end":747.391,"text":"麻醉的藥FG的藥這些東西是很可怕的如果流用出來"},{"start":749.114,"end":773.203,"text":"報告委員 一支藥品每一顆都歷歷皆清楚 流向絕對掌握的這個我們都要把它管控得很好啦 就是要管控得很好所以我們現在也在跟農業部跟他合作嘛 就讓我們兩邊的這個系統可以解決一方面這個藥商供藥的流向在哪裡 然後使用的量如何"},{"start":774.123,"end":786.032,"text":"這樣我們才能夠供給確保這個不管是動物要用藥還是要人用藥都能夠穩定供應人的用藥的劑量是跟狼犬一樣這個是我念到的啦我們今天要記"},{"start":788.001,"end":813.001,"text":"所以這個動物用藥跟人的用藥會不會流用我比較擔心的是一些管制藥品跟麻酸藥品這個真的會出事而且現在的量那麼大而且不要讓這些迅速負擔太大因為我們到獸醫店去獸醫師那邊去我覺得都很貴那個動物小旅館都要一天多少錢多少錢比健保還貴"},{"start":814.082,"end":838.664,"text":"你知道嗎?所以健保局實際上就是夭壽的所以這一塊一定要好好的管理那你要要嘛就他們開處方簽全部都到健保要求去領藥至少藥師也可以管制一下雖然那事不上這些藥師也去受一些這些的訓練讓他們有本質血能能增加"},{"start":839.545,"end":867.304,"text":"不然的話那我們的藥師這一塊也是沒有沒有所以我們現在初步的規劃方向也是雙軌制啦一方面是可以常用備藥的話可以從藥商或藥局直接供應或者是因為不是常備的部分備不足的部分可以到藥局因為比較方便也可以去拿所以是朝向用雙軌制的方式來重新規劃這樣"},{"start":869.305,"end":888.292,"text":"杜署長我要講,現在我們的健保藥局,如果我看不到很多行,他們會去物流那裡調,調了再栽培過來,然後藥是再發給我們的病人,那這樣是很上軌道的,那你健保藥局如果你"},{"start":889.272,"end":918.075,"text":"你那個獸醫師不可能看那麼多藥嘛他比較有可能他就把燉藥就倒了所以一定拿來藥取 健保藥取這樣釀啊健保藥取這樣阿婆管制阿婆這方面的知識啊一些管制藥 一些麻醉藥那個甚至會出問題然後你們的對獸醫師的管理有那麼嚴格嘛然後他自己開除方 自己調藥 自己配藥然後自己藥藥藥品的副作用 交叉反應那個會不會過量 會不會死掉"},{"start":919.011,"end":940.994,"text":"那個都是因為現在養寵物的人那麼多所以今天沒時間講到經濟動物那個更大一塊但是這些寵物毛小孩這邊很多年輕人這樣我們是要很小心那獸醫師這邊怎麼管理現在獸醫師有幾個目前全台灣的獸醫師大概有6000多位"},{"start":941.334,"end":956.658,"text":"六千多,那跟中醫是差不多啦那有兩千多家的動物醫院,就是獸醫的診療機構,就是動物醫院所以這一塊,暫緩實施,我也不知道是在暫緩實施什麼,是現在這樣繼續?這樣繼續這樣?我皮膚這樣齁?沒中?你是你最高的,你要講話呢?我先..."},{"start":966.511,"end":983.706,"text":"應該是說我們要在最短的時間內重新檢討那個辦法因為那個辦法裡面它涉及到要如何成為這個保護用藥動物保護用藥的程序相關的規定還有使用上的規定要趕快重新檢視我們會盡快的時間內去訂出新的辦法"},{"start":988.97,"end":1007.157,"text":"獸醫師、藥師還要管理辦法還有藥品還有一些危險藥品高菌性藥品都要好好的管理好 署長你跟衛生部的愛好啊 感到和諧是 報告委員就是因為原來的辦法裡面有一些可能沒有規定的細節上會"},{"start":1010.239,"end":1035.13,"text":"沒有辦法也符合到現在目前的一個期待啦所以說我們現在要收回這個辦法的時候都會將社會各界的意見包括雙方相關利害關係人還有我們兩個單位的意見我想大家都會做一個綜合考慮那以及解決到我們現在的寵物就是我們的犬貓跟非激進動物牠們的生命權跟醫療權的保障之下往這個更完善的制度方向來進行以上 謝謝"},{"start":1037.251,"end":1039.073,"text":"時代不一樣啦,我們要面對問題解決問題啦,加油,謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168541","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168541","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ec77822e2e6eae3e884da66f2851dbc354b0245b1feb43225bca6d85ad377ff15f377d25edfc7d75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴瑞隆","委員發言時間":"10:07:09 - 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謝謝召委 請經濟部何次長跟中油的林副總中油的副總還有台電的蔡副總"},{"start":13.11,"end":39.298,"text":"市長先請教一下現在美國封鎖了荷姆茲海峽那這個部分對於我們遊園的部分會產生什麼樣的影響不會有任何影響因為我們中遊在這個遊園的調度上面每天都很積極在所以已經有提早做準備了所以到六月份都沒有問題那七月份的呢也都在調度當中所以不會受到這個封鎖的影響"},{"start":40.598,"end":66.568,"text":"那另外未來的油價會不會持續的上漲當然油價目前整個有稍微緩和下來那國內的油價當然我們還是會有一些機制在出如果這個封鎖持續在進行的話油價還會不會可能受到影響當然也很難預測就是說如果這個沒有辦法說明好了好不好 中油還是要說明"},{"start":70.999,"end":84.697,"text":"報告委員國際油價的一個發展其實我們要看目前的一個戰爭的一個發展那以中油的角色來看我們一定是配合政府穩定物價政策委員也了解其實這兩週的油價我們都是不調漲的"},{"start":85.959,"end":108.588,"text":"那我們會以穩定物價的政策來follow這整個未來的一個油價的計算我回來問次長好了啦因為這個政策上面的那同樣的我想這個部分還是會穩定住啦即使油價假如有受到影響的話政府還是會穩定住整個油價那再來我想請教一下那對於各個產業上的影響呢如果這樣的封鎖持續 暫時持續的話"},{"start":110.569,"end":130.578,"text":"是目前其實目前整個原油的這個運輸的部分那這個調度的部分都沒有問題所以只要這個油原的這個來源是沒有問題的話它整個石化產業鏈其實我們應該都還可以足量來供應各個產業的一個發展"},{"start":132.839,"end":161.474,"text":"國際的媒體點名是巴基斯坦日本中國台灣會是受到一些相關的一些影響的所以我也希望經濟部密切的注意啦這些的整個後續的封鎖上面的經濟部有要回應嗎當然我們現在就是密切在觀察就整個這個戰事的一個發展那中油跟這個台塑的部分其實是兩大最主要的這個原油的這個進口的一個公司那我們也都"},{"start":161.914,"end":180.42,"text":"很積極希望他們在調度原油的部分能夠做超前部署正式順其萬變因為也沒有人掌握狀況不過我們就是要做的是超前部署不要讓我們的油源讓我們的產業受到重大的影響這請經部持續關注再要請教一下運動部我們黃次長"},{"start":189.816,"end":204.539,"text":"市長我順著請教其實到現在115年的總預算沒有省的話那對於運動部的整體上今年的預算使用會產生影響目前我們只能執行去年的決算數所以的確有一些 去年的決算數可以動用的是多少"},{"start":206.408,"end":233.962,"text":"這個實際的數字因為總共加起來我印象中好像100多億包含本部的基本100多億但是我看你們今年度的預算是248億所以有影響到了將近一半的數字所以有一半的數字是無法動之的包括延續性的計畫甚至到地方場館的建設包括新興的計畫等等都影響到了那如果持續的這樣下去的話那運動部接下來怎麼辦"},{"start":235.303,"end":235.714,"text":"我們只能"},{"start":237.118,"end":265.621,"text":"請拜託委員找一點省預算也只能拜託那個啦齁那我接下來請教啦那接下來這些概算呢概算的部分今年怎麼編4月份已經開始準備要編概算了嗎是的 目前這個還沒你們現在的編法一樣是從248億這樣再往上加上去來編嗎還是是的 基本上是以現有的基礎再有一些新興的計畫那如果有比較具有的東西我們必須要去具體寫一個計畫到行政院去爭取所以你們目標會朝向因為我像李洋部長"},{"start":266.161,"end":286.909,"text":"巴西運動部也剛成立然後這個都是重要的國家重要的一個部會那應該在新的計畫上面給予更多支持新部會如果沒有增加一些預算的話其實會很辛苦的那所以今年的預算規模會抓到多少就明年度的預算規模目前還沒有統合起來啦因為的確我們都拜訪運動部的目標呢預定抓到多少"},{"start":287.964,"end":308.644,"text":"我們是希望能夠就本部的部分因為今年本部的預算是214億然後我們是希望能夠增加到大概200希望能夠到240如果有機會的話210增加到240對那我看你們這邊如果要加其他的其實本來已經到248了因為是我們現在的預算公務預算跟基金預算是放在一起來"},{"start":310.189,"end":336.561,"text":"所以我也希望這個持續的因為新的部會既然我們要發展運動的話也應該要給予更多的經費的支持不是用原來的體育署的思考而已而是要運動部的思考那預算一定要持續來增加好那再來我順著請教啦其實有很多重大的交通建設其實包括高雄有很多重大的場館不管是私運組場館鳳山的運動園區包括男子園區甚至於各個區的"},{"start":338.301,"end":359.851,"text":"運動中心都很需要然後那這個部分未來運動部一樣會持續來支持嗎各地方政府的這些各地方政府會把他們的需求給提上來我們會經過一個固定的審查的方式根據各地方的需求跟經費的額度來做各個縣市都要持續的增加運動這一塊啦我們希望能夠全民運動當然全民運動的話就涉及到各個區都應該有"},{"start":360.931,"end":376.109,"text":"好的一些運動場館跟設施我希望這一塊運動部能夠支持然後一區一中心這樣的方式但有的是大的有的是比較小的但是讓人民能夠就近去做運動我覺得這個對於我們身體的健康對於幸福感甚至於對醫療支出都會是有幫助的"},{"start":377.29,"end":399.099,"text":"我們的方向是希望多往基層我們不見得是需要到每個縣市都蓋那種大型的國際廠房運動部的目的應該是全民運動是一個關鍵讓大家一起來運動享受運動的好處這也是符合總統的概念包括像自由車廠這個新建計畫我也希望運動部未來能夠支持好嗎我們來演繹好 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因為我想這也是息息相關的就是這個油價的一個上漲當然就是會連帶造成一些民生的一個支出就是造成這個民眾的一個經濟的一個壓力所以我們也希望就是說未來我們也是要未雨綢繆就是說要去思考一下就是萬一這個戰爭還是會拖延很長的一段時間那我們要怎樣來因應來穩定我們這個民生"},{"start":311.693,"end":315.655,"text":"委員剛剛所建議的這個棄燃費的部分我們來做討論我們內部先來做討論那也要看這個整體戰爭的時間大概是多長我們會來做討論我這邊再來先請教一下經濟部就是說因為對於江東部目前的"},{"start":326.941,"end":353.12,"text":"短期的部分大概是這樣的作為那經濟部這邊當然就是要求中油就是動漲這個油價那剛剛我有提到就是說其實每一開站到現在我們有漲了兩次就是就是我們對民生的部分我們就是一般用油的油價漲了兩次那我們是大部分的成本是由中油來吸收那也吸收了一百多億了那不曉得說未來這樣子的一個狀況我們"},{"start":356.222,"end":376.685,"text":"還能夠撐多久我們不知道嘛因為這個戰爭的變數很多所以未來我們看到就是說我們台灣的這個進口的來源原有的進口的來源幾乎有68%是來自於中東那我們有沒有可能降低這個就是仰賴中東的這個來源有沒有可能開闢其他原有的一個進口管道"},{"start":377.666,"end":398.584,"text":"跟委員報告一下就是說基本上我們在分散這個就是進口國的工作一直在做那像那個天然氣的部分以前現在的佔比在中東大概只有大概差不多三成左右那我們會持續因為我們最近中油大概在六月份他會有一個美國新的約進來"},{"start":399.765,"end":427.602,"text":"那那個基本上以後中東的那個天然氣的部分就會慢慢慢慢下降那有的部分中油現在它在北美採購的那個量也是逐步在提高當中所以我們一直在努力分散這個不同的市場來源是是因為我們也希望就是說這個基站不要放在同一個欄子因為按照這個統計的數字我們看到這個天然氣的部分異化天然氣的部分仰賴中東的比例是比較低可是原油的部分就相當高嘛有18%的比例"},{"start":429.583,"end":440.568,"text":"所以我們也希望就是說盡量能夠分散這個風險我們會努力那接下來我最後一個問題再問一下交通部部長那我們署長就請先回去"},{"start":441.653,"end":463.302,"text":"就是目前我們就是因為這個整個國際能源的一個危機就是國際石油還有天然氣供應吃緊那對我們目前進行的重大交通建設是否會受到影響比如說我們目前彰化縣內重大的交通建設就是台76線延伸到方院的這個工程"},{"start":464.164,"end":493.793,"text":"因為我們知道很多工程的原料比如說釐清或者是一些成本的提高我剛剛有提到運輸的成本等等會不會造成工期的延宕向委員報告我們盡量不要去影響到工期也很感謝公共工程委員會其實都有做原物料的協調包含釐清的部分也提供我們很大的協助目前為止是沒有受到影響但是如果長遠來看的話未來的戰爭發展到什麼樣的狀況我們還不曉得不過我們會密切注意"},{"start":494.133,"end":508.342,"text":"整體原物料的這個第一它價格的波動第二它原物料的來源有沒有辦法及時供應這個部分我們會注意是好就是說我們希望就是說在這個部分我們交通部也要有事先的因應的對策是沒有錯好我們會做對策謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168538","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168538","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ec77822e2e6eae347ad3e129c9dfe56ba64134b0f452f2e25bca6d85ad377ff856507347698b5fa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"萬美玲","委員發言時間":"09:50:15 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謝謝主席 我們有請陳部長請陳部長委員好"},{"start":19.96,"end":47.327,"text":"好 部長早這個空運的部分在國內航線我們現在是由中油先吸收油價的漲幅沒有錯嗎國內航線的部分好 那國際的航線您好像有說到說會請航空公司盡力的來按照公佈的這個班表來執行如果要調整航班那有一些相關的配套措施提醒等等通通要出來嘛 對不對好 那我們來看國際航班的部分現在雖然已經調整了燃油附加費的這個部分"},{"start":49.087,"end":62.597,"text":"但是民航局的數據看到一個數字各航空公司在4月份現在每一週大概就取消了平均7.3班的班機那到了5月份更是取消的班機增加到了每週52.6班"},{"start":64.858,"end":77.587,"text":"那看到這個數字發現取消航班的狀況其實是越來越嚴重那我想請教部長我們國際航班的部分現在我們還有哪一些措施可以來因應不可能讓他們因為現在油價漲然後我們就一直減少這個班機嘛有沒有什麼因應的措施"},{"start":81.75,"end":110.567,"text":"委員報告燃油附加費當然是對於他們油價的一個補貼但是航空公司還是吸收了蠻大一個比例的燃油的漲價的成本目前為止是這個樣子所以有些航班他們希望能夠整併或者是精簡掉一些航班到目前為止我們掌握的數據昨天晚上有算出來整個夏季班表我們影響的是0.3%的航班目前看起來還不多但委員剛剛在提醒的是說擔心五月之後或者是六月之後影響會更大"},{"start":110.967,"end":130.072,"text":"部長其實你用這個0.3來講 但是我們要實際去看我們從4月到5月 這個航班取消這個比例其實是增加非常的快的不是你口中看到0.3你就覺得很放心了而且你要看再過兩個多月 我們的所謂的這個國外旅遊市場的旺季就要來了 就是暑假的時候"},{"start":130.652,"end":156.186,"text":"不管是這個在教育界老師放暑假啦那孩子們放暑假的時間都會要出國去的那如果這個班級再這樣一直減班的話我覺得對於國人出國旅行的衝擊是非常大的那我記得啦就是在前幾年疫情的時候我們也有給航空業者一些相關營運紓困的方案那包括有提出緩收場站這個使用費啦或者是噪音補償金啦土地使用費等等啦"},{"start":156.806,"end":178.422,"text":"那現在如果按照現在來看來我想中東戰事誰也說不準會繼續多久那如果說我們這個油價還是拼命往上漲然後呢我也不知道中油的吸收能夠到什麼時候你準備了多少成本那航空業者像你所說的不管他自己的成本考量油價的考量那去把它整併以後影響了這個航班我們是不是有其他的配套的措施在這個國際航班上面"},{"start":179.324,"end":203.281,"text":"向委員報告這是一個國際上面各國都遇到的同樣的問題我知道但是你有沒有什麼應對的方式目前我們看得到的就是說目前他們整併掉的航班都是定位率比較相對低的那也就是說影響的民眾其實實際上沒有這麼多他們把定位率不好的航班把它拿掉那其他的會盡量來維持那我們會盡量鼓勵那部長是不是可以就是說"},{"start":204.102,"end":222.643,"text":"在這裡啊做一個保證說我們即將來臨的這個國外旅遊的旺季就是七月八月齁這段時間我們的班次不會班季不會再減少因為現在已經診病了嘛五月都已經要減少每週五十幾班了這個可以保證嗎要不然現在其實很多的家長啊孩子啊大家在準備暑假的出遊其實都心裡就是很擔憂啦"},{"start":223.544,"end":250.201,"text":"是 向委員報告 這個部分其實交通部沒有這個力量去要求各國的航空公司標準檢查這當然不是要求 而是要跟航空業者多溝通看他們有什麼樣的困難這個我們都會掌握啦就是說困難上面我們如果可以協助的部分台灣的交通部跟民航局一定會做更好的協助我想我給你一個比較具體的建議啦因為就差兩個多月的時間而已了那我想航空業者其實就是用油大戶嘛"},{"start":251.181,"end":271.77,"text":"那面對中東戰事現在的狀況那我們沒有一個政府沒有一個政策可以補貼他他自己自救的想法就是覺得說第一個我趕快整病第二個呢那我就是縮減這個班級那我覺得是不是部裡面找一個時間跟航空業者坐下來聊一聊然後看看如果什麼樣的狀況的時候我們可以可以什麼樣的幫忙我覺得這個會可不可以盡速一個禮拜之內去跟他們做一個溝通"},{"start":272.29,"end":296.646,"text":"委員 像委員報告 之前其實民進黨局一直都有跟他們開過會所以才會有燃油附加費的增加 我們會盡量協助他那委員再交代說 希望再更密集來跟他們開會 這個我們會做不要影響這個暑假暑期的出遊啦接下來呢 這個本席要跟你討論的我想前不久你也才剛剛聽到本席在提出來嘛總諮詢的時候 其實我就有提到 桃園的鐵路地下化當時呢 我跟左院長在講這個事的時候 您也在場喔"},{"start":298.607,"end":306.592,"text":"那大家都說會不會來討論不曉得那天本席談完之後到現在你們有討論過了嗎我們的這個變更計畫追加了769億我有跟院長報告整體的狀況那他對於整體的經費當然他會覺得蠻大的"},{"start":314.816,"end":341.841,"text":"那這個部分我們還在討論就是說工程會那邊在討論說我們工程上面的經費看要怎麼樣去做更合時的一個作為啦那目前我們正在討論當中我們也希望他趕快進行怎麼會這個時候才來說要做更合時的一個作為或者是說再去看這個經費這個769億不是昨天核定這是8個月前經過很審慎的評估以後提出769億嘛那大家各部會都同意了都蓋章了才到行政院去嘛我們持續都在溝通"},{"start":342.421,"end":369.065,"text":"現在卡在行政院這個八個月的時間了我想部長你非常清楚知道我記得在昨天前天吧我們看到這個工程會的主委他提到一件事他說中東戰爭導致原油進口量減少間接影響柏油產量那麼進而就會導致瀝青減少然後呢就會缺料接著就會漲價一樣的意思啊我們這個769億的變更預算其實就是以前因為工程延宕產生出來的費用那你看看"},{"start":370.425,"end":393.497,"text":"769億是8個月前提出來的你跟我現在延宕有9個月10個月你覺得到時候如果萬物在起漲的時候769億還夠嗎那如果又不夠是不是要辦第三次變更計畫那這個是不是還是一樣全民買單部長你有思考過這個部分嗎有都有思考過所以結論是什麼我們盡量努力希望進度可以再加快一點我們盡量再溝通那現在溝通的困難點是什麼呢"},{"start":394.957,"end":404.503,"text":"溝通的困難就是我剛剛有報告過就是經費其實還真的是蠻龐大所以要做更詳細的說明經費龐大不是這個時候拿出來講769億那個時候是大家已經都經過很多時候去討論去商榷就是769億而且你要說他的經費龐大不好意思那天在總諮詢我本席也跟你講過我們樹林萬大縣我們高雄捷運全部都合併下去啦那怎麼就我桃園提出來的經費叫龐大呢那難道這個"},{"start":421.132,"end":425.234,"text":"這個萬大線跟這個高雄捷運小港零元線這個經費都不龐大嗎對不對這也都是500多億啊也都700多億800多億啊怎麼他們就不龐大我們的769億就龐大呢可以給我一個說法嗎向委員報告您所提出來這個數據第一個萬大線它增加220幾億那高雄的是增加303億也是500多億嘛對不對"},{"start":446.124,"end":473.393,"text":"個別啦 個別沒有那麼多那我們桃園這個增加的部分就700多億確實是比較龐大一點但是委員在急 我也蠻急我們也希望說趕快能做溝通所以我們會盡量盡力來做部長 這個案子我覺得你說金額龐大這件事情本身是無法接受 為什麼如果你覺得金額龐大 意思是說其實沒有需要這麼多就可以做嗎不是嘛 對不對它是有急迫的需要當這個建設是有急迫需要的時候它沒有所謂龐不龐大的問題"},{"start":475.213,"end":490.981,"text":"當時大家都合訂一關一關蓋章送到行政院去的這代表大家都同意這個是需要的那結果你現在回頭說金額有點龐大那你當時就不要合訂769億啊向委員報告我們會盡量來溝通啊交通部溝通目前可能溝通還不足但是我們盡量來溝通"},{"start":493.735,"end":515.653,"text":"真的不能這樣啦 部長 桃園鐵路地下化這麼多年了曾經有人說 如果高價的話 現在都通車了但是我們也尊重鄭文燦當市長當時做的改變的決定全市也都配合 現在桃園市政府也都很配合但是工程延宕 再講一次 是延宕在中央啊不是延宕在地方嘛目前我們的工程上面沒有受到影響"},{"start":517.995,"end":545.616,"text":"怎麼會沒有受到影響你的這個金額沒有核定下來你今天我們桃園火車站動工了然後我們的國際站已經發包了但是我們的這個內地站我們的桃園醫院站就是沒有辦法發包啊所以而且呢真的不要去卡你卡這個八個月後面如果再多一個月兩個月就不是769億的事情了那到時候怎麼辦對不對所以部長不要盡量啦盡全力好不好盡全力好不好我相信你的能力就盡全力啊好不好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168529","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168529","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ec77822e2e6eae324b5f269ff50219261f404ecbec9cddc25bca6d85ad377fffae877f5b75d87c95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王義川","委員發言時間":"09:55:42 - 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沒藥沒金啊這樣對不對"},{"start":178.215,"end":200.225,"text":"各位這一部分是要因為我們其實在另外的報告裡面其實一直很強調我們在穩定能源供應這一塊經濟部跟整體政府的作為那這一塊可能在今天報告裡面我們沒有把它強調所以我們之後會再來做補充你想要表達你們很煩惱的叫大家交費商業給大家提供一下要補中油跟中油拜託一下"},{"start":206.681,"end":213.511,"text":"不要去,這個表達,不是說這幾本報給我們看,我們不關的都站在旁邊看來,外交部,你們的報告裡頭啊,羅列了這一次的事情,各國啊"},{"start":223.069,"end":237.399,"text":"不管是這個個別的國家,個別的元首,個別他們派出去的代表,或者區域性的這些組織啊,對這個事情的關心,有情形起的,有卡定的,你們都留下來了,中華民國外交部,在這件事裡面做什麼事情?"},{"start":239.997,"end":243.338,"text":"是,我們在中東戰事發生之後,我們就開始成立小組我們每天會開會,能夠實時的因應因應了什麼?來,因應了什麼?我們護橋優先,護橋優先所以我們在戰事期間,我們同時要求駐外的管處全力的協助國人"},{"start":264.142,"end":292.757,"text":"你這個吳小齋這上面有報過過你們大概每週多少國人因為現在要留在那裡為你協助從別的國家離開對不對然後跟一些團說你不要再去那裡玩對不對你都有做我知道在經濟安全這個事情外交部做什麼事情報告我們現在這個經濟安全的部分主要是第一個是說收集相關的資訊跟這個經濟部密切配合你的收集資訊啊是"},{"start":294.909,"end":302.116,"text":"我們如果外交部還是主導的一個機關他們如果有需要我們通過外交的手段有什麼需要外交部幫忙"},{"start":304.537,"end":325.633,"text":"報告委員跟外交部合作部分當然就是第一個掌握其他國家在因應那個中情中戰爭的一個策略然後他們實際國內的一個影響狀況來跟國內來做比較另外當然我們會有一些需要轉移從中東進口來源的轉移部分然後會透過外交部來協助有沒有跟其他國家進口的可能性"},{"start":328.12,"end":354.499,"text":"外交部給我們卸的經濟部你有看過嗎?有你有看過其他國家做什麼事情嗎?有你就需要外交部去做什麼事情嗎?我們在行政院內部我們跟外交部跟其他部會都有持續的一個合作不是合作啦,我說外交部裡面有卸,卸很多國家他們透過各種的管道,有清新的,有卡電話的,有等待的,拜託的"},{"start":356.061,"end":371.495,"text":"我們經濟部,叫外交部,請外交部說你們可以派什麼人,去跟什麼人說什麼事情你們經濟部有沒有提出這個要求啦不是我們外交部,外交部收集,叫外管去收集資訊回來來大家行政院來開會,他們報告之後經濟部拜託外交部說,我們現在需要你們去跟我們倒傻講什麼事情有沒有提出這個需求啦"},{"start":380.169,"end":408.556,"text":"我想有啦經濟部這個要求在這個相關的能源調度上當然他們才掌握價格嘛比如說今天天然氣必須要從澳洲從這個加拿大從美國來調貨現貨上面我們要去協調是不是這個東西同時我們提供給這個經濟部相關的評估這個戰事就我們的了解從美方掌握的資訊從這個日方所掌握的資訊其他的這個理念相信國家掌握的資訊還會再持續多久那是不是要做稍微長期的規劃"},{"start":409.716,"end":424.949,"text":"那以及長期規劃裡面是不是需要透過因為說實在現在大家都在搶貨那我們現在是不是能夠透過外交的一個努力我們可以加拿大我現在就問你有沒有啊是有戰爭上面是有有啦好啦你如果真的這個會議你沒辦法說就說有就好了啦是阿不然你那行政院叫這麼多部委來去阿你報告之後他們聽到以後說我們沒事情我聽到以後就報告你來看這報告裡面沒有一句緊張的那時候我們沒事情呢這樣會不會通"},{"start":440.646,"end":453.798,"text":"拜託啦,你們這經濟部喔,你們這樣為了中間有賣企業,這樣去賣到要死你也表達一下,說你有什麼歡樂,叫大家體諒一下叫我們國內體諒一下,大家補貼一下,沒有耶今天早上拜這個節目,想說這經濟部判定來,我們這個外交國防來報告一下結果你們搞這個東西來,這是看起來就不好啊"},{"start":467.242,"end":483.763,"text":"謝謝委員提醒其實進一步一直持續有在對社會說明我們對中油相關協助需要大家的支持所以要謝謝委員的支持好啦加油啦拜託啦你不可以這樣報時不報休啦大家都在歡樂啊你怎麼看人家都說沒壓沒緊啦好不好好謝謝感謝委員"}]}},{"id":"17356","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17356","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3ea0554717462f89e5b4d5c837147ce0a12847b9569dcea103dcc6df8d08990c78e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2026-04-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：繼續審查委員林俊憲等23人擬具「市區道路條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案。【4月15日及16日兩天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2026-04-15","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2026-04-15T08:36:18+08:00","end_time":"2026-04-15T09:41:00+08:00","duration":3882,"影片長度":"01:04:42","委員發言時間":"08:36:18 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登記發言委員除不在場者外其餘均已發言完畢 詢答結束二 委員高津素梅 丁學中 洪玉祥 賴瑞龍 劉建國所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報三 書面質詢及未及答覆部分請相關機關於一週內另以書面答覆並複製本會通過臨時提案一案 宣讀完畢"},{"start":1813.686,"end":1826.172,"text":"請問各位委員上次會議議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏沒有好謝謝那我們就確認議事錄今天繼續進行討論事項請宣讀討論事項繼續審查委員林俊憲等23人拟據市區道路條例第23條條文修正草案案"},{"start":1840.551,"end":1865.698,"text":"本日審查的法案,業經本會於115年3月16日本會期第二次全體委員會會議報告及詢答結束並決議另訂其審查所以另訂其繼續審查所以本次會議進行繼續審查現在介紹在場委員及列席官員先介紹張志倫委員謝謝"},{"start":1869.196,"end":1888.042,"text":"黃美惠委員吳祁銘委員黃捷委員內政部政務次長董建宏董次長國土管理署署長蔡長展蔡署長交通部公務運輸及監理師專門委員趙敬偉好法務部參事謝志明謝謝"},{"start":1899.203,"end":1926.948,"text":"報告委員會現在進行法案審查請宣讀討論四項條文修正動議修正動議委員林俊憲委員林俊憲等人提案第二十三條第一項第四款汽車燃料使用費文字修正為公路養護修建及安全管理費"},{"start":1929.733,"end":1933.174,"text":"跟委員會報告今天其實"},{"start":1949.5,"end":1963.639,"text":"原本希望可以排審總預算但是目前委員會還沒有收到院會或還沒有協商還沒有總預算可以排審第二個事情就是今天原本也希望可以審國安法"},{"start":1964.622,"end":1992.818,"text":"但是上個禮拜五排審的時候其實還不方便審國安法這各位知道那所以今天排審的這個市區道路條例第23條的修正案相對單純但也請在場委員及官員如果有任何意見都請充分表達那我們現在開始對今天排審的法案來進行下一個程序那現在就進行這個"},{"start":1994.399,"end":2007.127,"text":"全讀謝謝第23條委員林俊憲等23人提案第一項第4款汽車燃料使用費文資修正為公路養護修建及安全管理費其餘同線型條文修正動議"},{"start":2012.418,"end":2028.594,"text":"第一項同委員林俊憲的23人員提案第三項修正為第一項第四款公路使用養護安全管理費由公路主管機關統一徵收其分配比例由內政部會商內政部辦理之其餘同線請條文好那我現在來跟各位討論謝謝"},{"start":2064.318,"end":2081.761,"text":"我先對現在交通委員會的召委林俊憲表示抱歉他現在也坐在主席台那他也特別來希望來拜託我們委員會可以今天可以順利通過這個法案謝謝那請在場委員有可以發表意見請王美惠委員謝謝"},{"start":2082.822,"end":2103.313,"text":"就是 剛才大家說的 大家都很關心修正第23條徵收汽車燃料稅使用的 費用的目的因為我們在這兩邊 我覺得在公路養護修正跟安全的管理"},{"start":2105.114,"end":2127.372,"text":"來賓 我覺得本來從以前到現在我們就是拜聖水本來就是使用在我們維護這個公路這說實在 這比較有利嘛因為我覺得長久以來要安全 安全就是要有公路有安全性 有平衡性 有平衡"},{"start":2128.853,"end":2149.886,"text":"修路回巡,開車是一個安全回家的路啦我希望這個修路回巡,我們未來一周回巡,可以更加積極,更加進步,以上好,謝謝王美惠委員接下來請吳清明委員,謝謝"},{"start":2151.414,"end":2166.351,"text":"好 各位 我的看法跟外媒會的一樣因為我們台價稅本來就是在大陸所使用所以如果是在地方會大陸使用所以每位所提出的本席的考量都一致謝謝好 謝謝吳祈明委員接下來請黃婕委員 謝謝"},{"start":2169.69,"end":2196.74,"text":"好 那這個其實就是搭配公路法的修法把這個汽車燃料使用費改成公路的養護安全管理費那未來也是希望說因為電動車也越來越多所以使用者付費我覺得這個概念都沒有問題那可能是203明年會上路但是我還是希望表達一下很多電動車主的意見因為其實當初在討論之前在討論牌照稅的時候他們就很擔心說這個變成一種馬力稅"},{"start":2199.881,"end":2221.906,"text":"這個討論也很多那現在如果我們這個公路養護費的收費的方式它的標準也是比照馬力的話那會變成說對電動車主來說他們會覺得有一點不公平因為他們比照的很可能都是在燃料裡面很可能是超跑級的等級的牌照稅跟這個公路養護費"},{"start":2223.166,"end":2238.381,"text":"那他們會說這樣對照過去好像他們對他們來說也沒有鼓勵到他們當初用電動車的這個精神因為他們就是希望說用電動這個門員就是希望說可以用電動的方式就可以有高馬力嘛"},{"start":2239.182,"end":2257.909,"text":"那結果你因為他使用了高馬力結果跟他收更多的牌照稅跟更多的公路養護費那會變成是他們覺得這樣子對照起來的標準對我來說不是太公平那另外一方面就是也有很多車主提到是不是未來有機會就是用里程數來當作一個參考的標準用越多的"},{"start":2260.31,"end":2288.902,"text":"那就付更多那而不是說你不論這台車平常上公路上了幾次一週去了七次或者是你一週才上公路一次但是大家要繳的費用是一樣的那所以是不是有這一種調節的機制讓使用者付費的概念很好但是是不是用越多的可以付越多然後中間也是用一個更公平的機制來徵收會不會更公平呢這個是以上給你們希望說可以到時候跟交通部一起討論"},{"start":2291.354,"end":2317.386,"text":"好謝謝黃捷委員接下來請張志榮委員好感謝張偉各位官員各位委員大家早那今天要修這個市區道路條例第23條第23條的這個第一項的第4款那是依照這個公路法第27條的名字來去做修正把這個汽車燃料使用費把它改為公路使用養護安全管理費"},{"start":2318.466,"end":2342.657,"text":"那主要的目的就是因為裡面我們的那個立法看到那個今天的內容裡面有特別強調說有可能是因為電動車的關係那電動車的原因就是說希望電動車未來在使用公路的時候也可以繳相關印的一些費用可是就我只要請教就是說就燃料稅而言就是因為當時是鼓勵使用電動車的所以電動車是不繳"},{"start":2343.877,"end":2367.644,"text":"燃料稅那如果現在未來改的這個方式以後那電動車未來的這個相關因的稅費的部分是不是改了這條以後有沒有相應的改變那是不是會不會有沒有什麼影響那是不是今天內政部跟交通部都在這裡是不是可以稍微說明一下謝謝好 接下來我們就請內政部以及交通部分別做說明我們先請內政部董事長 謝謝"},{"start":2371.473,"end":2388.082,"text":"好 謝謝各位委員剛才的指教那我想我們這個費用的修正基本上是配合交通部那也是為了要專款專用讓我們的道路系統能夠更完整然後讓大家在整個公路的養護過程裡面能夠享有比較安全舒適的道路"},{"start":2388.582,"end":2403.836,"text":"那至於道路費用的徵收那這部分剛才委員有提到就是說因為現在電動車是不需要徵收的那未來我們用公路養護的安全管理那他因為他也有使用公路那他當然就是說有必要徵收"},{"start":2404.537,"end":2427.362,"text":"那這個部分我們可以再跟交通部再做進一步的討論是不是那個費用的部分他用什麼樣的比例來處理那這部分可能要請交通部也提供一些我們一些建議讓我們來共同來會上基本上我們的條件是使用者付費你有使用那麼你就應該要負擔相關的比例的費用"},{"start":2427.862,"end":2454.174,"text":"但是這個比例的費用也要符合國家在淨零碳排的原則之下我們怎麼樣子可以有一個合適合理的比例的分擔那這個是我們可以來討論的好 請交通部做一個說明 謝謝是 謝謝剛剛幾位委員的推詢那首先交通部說明那依照我們公路法第27條的規定那公路主管機關為了公路養護修建跟安全管理是可以徵收這個所謂的"},{"start":2456.255,"end":2480.36,"text":"以前叫做汽車燃料使用費現在叫做公路使用養護安全管理的費用那它本質是道路使用費所以在去年立法院通過的公路法把這個汽燃費證明為公路使用養護安全管理費用那它本質上會更符合所謂的公路養護修建所需要的這個費用那現在的汽燃費的徵收的話是按照它的車種排氣量跟燃料品來進行相關的徵收"},{"start":2481.3,"end":2509.722,"text":"那我們現在為了政府為了鼓勵這個電動車的使用對於氣燃費是這個免徵氣燃費電動車是免徵氣燃費的這個優惠措施那鼓勵電動車來做使用那但是隨著電動車越來越多之後那就像剛剛次長跟幾位委員所提到的那既然有使用道路就應該要使用徵收相關的道路的使用費用那徵收的部分的話未來要怎麼徵收我們現在交通部已經請運輸研究所在進行相關研究當中那剛剛包含委員所說的這個"},{"start":2512.15,"end":2533.955,"text":"怎麼徵收的方式部分的話我們會在這個研究裡面跟包含財政部也有也會一行一路來做進行相關的討論所以這部分我們原則上我們就已經有在進行相關的研究那我們也希望說用到使用費的話有用入的話就要使用那至於徵收的方式怎麼樣更合理那我們會在這個研議的過程中我們會充分考慮考量大家的意見以上補充說明謝謝"},{"start":2534.875,"end":2557.76,"text":"好 謝謝江博說明 等一下有需要再補充一下張宏祿委員有意見 請張宏祿委員發表一下 謝謝我覺得給大家一個觀念我們以前這個棄藍費的收是以CC數什麼等等的那也有很多聲音是要隨由徵收用多少徵多少"},{"start":2558.52,"end":2582.068,"text":"那關於那個電動車大家不要忘了我們還有一個牌照稅你有車子的就要繳牌照稅我剛聽你們那個方向我好像是又要再想說這個電動車要再什麼增我覺得政府的角度不應該是這樣"},{"start":2584.266,"end":2604.659,"text":"牌照稅也都繳了你如果要去改革我覺得你們可以聚焦在牌照稅的改革或什麼你不要想出其他一大堆的東西這個要徵收什麼我覺得政府不應該想盡辦法從羊毛 羊身上一直拔毛你這個弄出來的錢不多"},{"start":2609.389,"end":2627.4,"text":"你浪費了那麼多時間然後去研究這個我是覺得方向大家要想清楚不要這樣子這是一個另外一個雖然我們今天這個條文只是為了這個名稱改而改"},{"start":2629.246,"end":2655.836,"text":"但我想要請教一下以現在的這一些我們現行的這個汽車燃料稅的這個部分我們大概都是怎麼分配你在市區道路改善什麼這些到底它佔的比例大概有多少這個交通部這個能不能讓我們知道一下這個交通部有辦法回答嗎 謝謝"},{"start":2657.518,"end":2678.743,"text":"關於委員問題的話我們事後會書面來提供給委員那簡單跟委員說明一下我們現在棄產費一年徵收之後呢徵收之後呢它是道路使用費那我們會按照相關的公式是依照我們會商財政部跟內政部相關機關之後報給行政院核定的公式來計算那原則上大概就是徵收之後大家會有一個基本的額度之後的40%會依照這個"},{"start":2680.903,"end":2691.235,"text":"道路的面積50%會遇到交通量然後來計算然後再分把相關的經費分配給包含志祥市在內跟各縣市政府以上說明"},{"start":2693.6,"end":2711.208,"text":"你可能我說清楚一點我想要知道的是我沒有要你給我確切的數據但你以我們舊的條文裡面這些它只是汽車燃料使用費在舊法條裡面它只是"},{"start":2712.669,"end":2737.04,"text":"之一 他不是唯一 他只是之一之一我只是想要知道 簡單講以前的徵收是專款專用照你的比例 照你的什麼的全部都用在我們的23條裡面就是道路修築 改善 養護都用在這裡嗎是百分之百都用在這裡嗎 我只想要知道"},{"start":2739.74,"end":2765.68,"text":"跟文報告我們現在徵收的汽燃費的話徵收完了之後我們就是按照比例全部分配給地方政府跟道路主管機關包含我們的公路局不是啦 這個我知道吧我剛剛的問題就是說你以前的徵收的我們這個汽車燃料使用費裡面是不是百分之百專款專用就用在我們23條裡面的我只想知道是不是這樣"},{"start":2767.2,"end":2786.249,"text":"跟文報告我們錢都是撥給地方政府不是啦 你撥給地方政府是我知道嘛你懂我的意思嗎你收的這筆錢是不是百分之百用在道路就是我們23條這裡都是撥給地方政府百分之百用在道路修建跟養護上面"},{"start":2787.099,"end":2815.24,"text":"用在法條有明文規定因為你這邊我們是授權由公路主管機關由交通部會商內政部辦理之這裡面那你的科目你的什麼的是百分之百用在這裡嗎還是你就是一個蓋鍋的我給地方政府我給什麼的那其實他只要跟這個道路修組改善什麼洋務摸的上邊的他都可以用"},{"start":2816.662,"end":2836.497,"text":"我只想要知道這個而已啊好 在署長補充之前 在張志文委員有一件請志文委員也發表 謝謝好 謝謝 再謝謝主席第二次發言那很感謝今天大家修這個我只是把這個電動車的問題提出來那我再加強補充一下"},{"start":2837.358,"end":2858.149,"text":"其實我們的政府他其實是有推這個2040年希望是全面使用電動車那所以剛剛洪路委員也提到一個很重要的問題到底這個道路因為就是我們希望說有足夠的金錢未來做我們的道路做修繕所以到底我們所收的燃料稅裡面燃料費裡面有多少是"},{"start":2858.909,"end":2873.742,"text":"是用在道路養護的金額其實可以提出來那第二個我是想要提說就是說其實政府也看到了說這個未來很多電動車會普及不管是公車或是等等的這種電動車所以政府其實有一個2030年以開始對電動車來恢復徵收公路養護費"},{"start":2880.647,"end":2907.092,"text":"這一個這個計畫所以我認為說當然這個名字去改變是沒有關係可是不要影響到我們電動車的使用者就是說讓他變成說他現在在鼓勵電動車我們政府有一個2040年全部使用電動車的一個理想一個目標可是如果你現在就恢復讓電動車去繳這個公路養護使用費其實跟現在政府的政策比如說對大動交通工具"},{"start":2907.612,"end":2929.321,"text":"電動車收入公路使用費的兩個好像比較沒有一致所以是不是政府的政策可以有一致性我先說一個參考抱歉 謝謝張志榮委員那我再說明一下 容我來說明一下今天其實排審這個市區道路條例第23條的修正條件草案"},{"start":2930.061,"end":2943.974,"text":"其實我們不是為了要徵收我們為的是要證明就是說把棄燃稅這個名字改成實際上它是公路養護費用安全管理費"},{"start":2946.676,"end":2969.091,"text":"如果有涉及到這個稅制的問題呢其實在我們在去年我們在院會一同來處理過的這個使用牌照稅法以及貨物稅法其實我們都有把包含這個電動車免徵牌照稅及貨物稅的優惠正式延長5年到2030年12月31"},{"start":2972.173,"end":2991.566,"text":"今天的討論沒有要徵收這個棄燃稅也就是我們今天要證明的公路養護修建及安全費裡面先做此說明那針對剛才張宏祿委員以及張志文委員的提問也請內政部這邊來做一個說明 謝謝"},{"start":2996.288,"end":3024.658,"text":"這邊補充一下就是在這一個以前過去的這個棄燃費那執行方式大概都是從那個地方的統籌分配稅款然後給地方政府然後地方政府的公務局大概會把這一部分的經費變到那個每年的大陸養護這個確實是有這樣在落實以上那個署長這樣說明就很清楚啦 謝謝"},{"start":3031.427,"end":3053.007,"text":"剛剛謝謝昭緯有說明就是說今天的重點其實是將整個的棄燃稅證明為公路使用養護安全管理費這樣一個方式公路使用養護安全費用我們剛才署長也說明在相關的經費的編列他就是納入統籌分配款由地方政府的公務局或者是道路養護單位他是專款專用"},{"start":3054.108,"end":3077.973,"text":"至於在未來針對電動車是否要徵收這個我們會再跟財政部跟交通部我們來共同來討論因為我們還是前提還是一個就是說政府要達到2050的淨零碳排的政策在這個政策之下使用電動車是我們最重要的一個策略之一"},{"start":3078.613,"end":3083.339,"text":"所以我們會從這個角度先來跟交通部跟財政部一起來討論這樣子"},{"start":3099.117,"end":3123.957,"text":"董事長請你再說明清楚,課稅跟這個證明有沒有關係課稅這一個條文跟課稅的內容是沒有關係的課稅內容是會我們再跟交通部他們去討論跟財安部去討論在什麼樣的項目裡面去處理那我們今天只是證明就是說把汽車燃料費改成這個名稱改成公路使用養護安全管理費"},{"start":3124.617,"end":3146.47,"text":"那他就是證明啦那這個費用剛才我們署長也說明了這個費用就是由統統分配款分撥到地方政府由地方政府的公路養護單位有的是公務局有的是建設局他專款專用大概是這樣子好謝謝董事長的這個說明我只是請教最後一個問題因為我剛剛一直有談到說電動車現在是免徵這個燃料"},{"start":3151.112,"end":3174.658,"text":"費那你現在把燃料費已經改成叫做我們講的新的叫做公路使用兩戶費那這樣他沒有他的現在的規定是說沒有說電動車免你剛講的這個新的名詞這個費那這樣子的話你你如果現在這個東西就已經改了那是不是跟現我只要先跟交通部跟內政部確定說是不是電動車目前還是不用"},{"start":3175.719,"end":3182.473,"text":"你現在新改的這個還是你馬上就要去五年內因為你把這個名字給改掉了嘛我只是想要請教這個問題而已好不好"},{"start":3185.611,"end":3204.025,"text":"跟委員報告第一個我們今天討論是是證明更名的問題不是徵收的問題第二個現在電動車免棄燃費那棄燃費更名為供路使用洋庫管理費之後那我們現在電動車也還是在持續免這個電動車還是免徵這個公路使用洋庫管理費現在還是繼續免徵所以你把電動車直接給趕過去了對不對"},{"start":3216.952,"end":3235.107,"text":"很簡單啦電動車還是不會徵收燃料稅啦這個陷阱就是這樣啦而且他也沒有使用燃料所以電動車也是不會去徵收燃料稅因為你那個徵收的名目就"},{"start":3236.548,"end":3259.054,"text":"就不服啦不要說不服但我們今天修這個法就是因為他們名稱的改變但我覺得張志榮委員他意思說你如果改成這樣的話你們會不會又去另立名目要來徵收這個嘛所以我剛剛一開始我就跟各位講了"},{"start":3261.263,"end":3285.975,"text":"你的電動車你也有牌照所以也有什麼的他不是沒有 他只是沒有使用燃料所以他沒有收到這一條我也提醒大家不要去我們內政委員會問你們之後你們自己又去天馬行空又去亂搶然後說要去徵收什麼這點是我們一開始我們就講了我們內政委員會不希望你們這樣做"},{"start":3287.516,"end":3312.076,"text":"我一開始我就這樣講的就是代表張志倫委員的想法是跟我一樣的我們一開始我們就是這樣講我們內政委員會態度非常明確也希望交通部跟內政部這是我們內政委員會的立場這你們要非常非常的清楚就這樣嘛 對"},{"start":3314.515,"end":3338.456,"text":"好 謝謝接下來請王美惠委員主席在這裡因為我們在座的提問都是地方的民運代表因為今天大家都知道說是要證明這個問題但是這個民運代表很高興的就是說你證明之後怕被洗不知道為什麼另外再來要立什麼水"},{"start":3340.057,"end":3348.763,"text":"因為我們要先反而放下,當我們有意見的時候麻煩在我們資財上開花的時候,放下講不然發生之後,還要再講,不會有效所以,我覺得今天的這個問題,起碼說今天二孔、三孔年以後,又要抽水怎麼辦"},{"start":3364.674,"end":3375.697,"text":"所以在座不管帶一棟,都是環繞這個問題啦所以我們知道說今天是要證明而已,跟證明的時候因為主席也很好說,如果有什麼問題可以跟他說,跟我們利用這個時間報告一下,跟他們說一下,你們回去開會跟他們說我們所擔憂的事情啦"},{"start":3390.382,"end":3407.929,"text":"因為我們有的沒的了解說,在這裡後,你看三公里以後,又要抽藍藥水,這樣騎電動車或是小巴士的,會很高興現在就是,要不然發生,我們就要想辦法放了,以上主席我也想要說明一下,很多開油車的人"},{"start":3420.39,"end":3427.657,"text":"那他會指著電動車說不公平你為什麼不用燃料稅那"},{"start":3429.283,"end":3452.63,"text":"確實啦確實但是國家的政策我們其實我們當時大家都是同意的就是說到2030年前那我們就是鼓勵電動車我們希望到2040的時候那是全面可以使用電動車這是我們的一個目標這是對空污的一個理念這是大家共同的目標那所以今天的證明"},{"start":3453.45,"end":3478.026,"text":"我們會不會去支持 包含所有委員 包含自動委員 包含內政部內政委員會 包含交通委員會我們會不會反過來去支持說 不行現在電動車就要開始瞌睡變相的不是鼓勵電動車 這個也不是我們今天的目的我們今天的目的是要很清楚的讓鼓勵電動車的方向不變第二個2030年"},{"start":3479.207,"end":3508.459,"text":"方向不變但是這個氣燃稅他實際上使用在內政這個市區道路條例裡面其實是在修復道路我們把它證明我們就是把這個氣燃稅證明他沒有燃燒汽油但是他有使用道路我們先把它證明但是我們還是繼續鼓勵電動車的使用這是我們今天其實先把它證明讓這一個法源可以清楚的"},{"start":3509.059,"end":3534.698,"text":"知道這一筆費用補助在各縣市政府的統籌分配款上面就是要做道路修復使用的我以上也做一個發言那張宏祿委員請發言我覺得我們今天只是修改條文的名稱讓行政機關他可以去使用這筆錢而已今天就是這麼簡單這一個"},{"start":3536.639,"end":3539.086,"text":"那我必須要重申 我們內政委員會是這個對於"},{"start":3541.431,"end":3567.696,"text":"電動車或者是油車剛剛大家講什麼2030年什麼我跟你講2030年台灣是沒有禁止油車喔這個要講很清楚喔是沒有禁止油車喔這個個人喜好要買什麼都是嘛對不對那你2030年你的燃料稅你也是繼續徵啦我不相信你不會徵嘛對不對但我們今天的修法完全不涉及"},{"start":3568.496,"end":3582.932,"text":"任何的財稅稅收的改變完全沒有所以這個要說得很清楚只是讓你們可以去用這筆錢而已剛剛所有的委員提醒的希望你們要知道我們"},{"start":3584.093,"end":3601.093,"text":"在座的所有委員我們說的就是我們內政委員會的立場我們不希望你們去多用什麼名目未來去怎麼樣而且我們要重申2030年油車也是繼續用啊對不對甚至我們可以提醒你們在推動電動車在油車"},{"start":3603.175,"end":3629.36,"text":"水油徵收也講了很久了你們也應該反而去研究是不是水油徵收你們現在這個也是很不合理啊對不對我不管用多少你就是給我用一樣收一樣的錢啦我每天開跟我我車子放著我一個月開兩次的你跟我收一樣的對不對對鼓勵鼓勵齁這個"},{"start":3632.4,"end":3659.915,"text":"用電動車也好或鼓勵我做大眾捷運也好相對不公平我有一台車可能是我有需要我要每個月要出遠門我有需要所以我才買一台車我用油量很少啊這點反而你們要去思考但還是要重申我們今天修的就是只是讓你們可以去用而已跟所有的稅收是完全不相干我們所有的委員的只是給你們善意的提醒"},{"start":3664.198,"end":3687.963,"text":"好謝謝那我們講得很清楚今天是證明讓你們可以去使用這筆費用不是要去徵收這筆費用非常清楚那我們在院會所表達的一致通過的那我們也不會去違背自己在院會的立場這個也同步跟各位委員以及這個官員說明那請問在場委員還有沒有意見沒有好"},{"start":3691.519,"end":3702.768,"text":"這就有得力了,我一台S250、S320,我來給人家就這樣我沒用啊,我每年交兩件水的我給人家說我請人說,難怪你公投要給我,這台車我騎不上,我就給人家真的就沒得力啊"},{"start":3720.382,"end":3722.644,"text":"我一年才50斤,我一年才2斤水,10萬塊?對"},{"start":3736.151,"end":3741.152,"text":"我賺了20萬塊,我說我多少個人欠,我賺不到10萬塊現在總共有1萬塊的錢來,簽一下,你們看一下"},{"start":3764.947,"end":3774.651,"text":"好謝謝各位委員,請問各位委員如果沒有其他修正意見,照委員林俊憲等"},{"start":3792.939,"end":3800.645,"text":"委員修正動議通過,請問有沒有異議?沒有謝謝,那我們做以下決議"},{"start":3807.164,"end":3819.356,"text":"今天討論事項市區道路條例第23條修正條文修正草案已審查完略你據審查報告提報院會討論,請問在場委員是否需經黨團協商?不用"},{"start":3825.606,"end":3851.418,"text":"好那我們就不用黨團協商本案於院會討論時由本席做補充說明審查通過之條文相關法制用語授權主席及議事人員整理沒意見好謝謝那本次會議到此結束現在上會謝謝大家主席你跟我說46分來不及了"}]}},{"id":"168531","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168531","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ec77822e2e6eae351cd55cd8e6c357c44e7435d00e8512025bca6d85ad377ffbdd561b1fcf353985ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"10:02:42 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大家早安近期校園性平的案件事實上是平常 可是當新聞爆發的時候我相信大家都有跟我一樣的疑問也就是說為什麼現行的相關法規沒有辦法好好接觸每一個孩子像是近期震撼全國的案件台中某國小的少棒隊的教練明明"},{"start":39.95,"end":61.071,"text":"早就已經有兩次的猥褻兒童的前科卻能獲聘用進入到校園並申請猥褻多名我們邵邦隊的成員長達六年的時間受害的孩子們長期在一個處於權威壓迫當中相對的他就不敢向外求助那調查發現之後"},{"start":62.853,"end":80.275,"text":"才越來越多 看到越來越多的受害者然後即使姓平 民小園的性別案件受害者真的鼓起勇氣來求助的時候可是在冗長的一個申訴的歷程當中還會遭受到我們體制跟承辦人員的惡度傷害"},{"start":84.295,"end":111.148,"text":"可反觀也就是說我們的性別平等教育法在針對申訴機制的設計已經是性平三法當中相對事實上是最完整的可這樣的機制落實在實務當中卻讓第一線的人員承擔了巨大的行政壓力因為教育部的資料去看到是2023年我們的性別平等教育法因應MeToo運動修法後大專院哨的性騷擾通報"},{"start":112.83,"end":131.612,"text":"兩直接激增往上成長了4成可是校園性平案件的每一個繁瑣的流程幾乎都要用承辦人員來負責可是第一線的承辦人員呢他卻不是只有單純做這些事情他有高達6成事實上是兼辦"},{"start":132.273,"end":152.196,"text":"所以他需要去處理其他的行政的雜務那巨大的業務量跟長時間傾聽案件的細節恐怕產生替代性創傷往往導致第一線承辦人員的流動率極高像今天也有過去這樣的承辦人員來到現場等一下他可能會去講"},{"start":153.097,"end":153.658,"text":"那當然我們看到台灣"},{"start":175.424,"end":204.47,"text":"也有相對的一些制度沒有錯可是我們的性平法裡面的第九條就是規定我們性平業務應該有專人處理那這個專人到底是專辦還是事實上是兼辦沒有特別規定沒有要求一定要專職或者是專業背景實務上當然學者有指出說懲罰人員多數被定為基層的行政人力而其專業判斷有時候會受到沒有專業甚至"},{"start":205.39,"end":225.628,"text":"缺乏性平觀念的主管來制約所以導致我們的校平校園的性平業務呢被簡化到敢流程敢結案然後避免被罰的SOP而非真的能夠提供受害者實質的支持或推動輔導的教育所以如果要改善這樣的問題或許可以參考美國的"},{"start":226.088,"end":240.815,"text":"教育修正案的第九條的制度設計也就是這個制度呢是要求各校應該設置至少一名的協調員來負責統籌處理校內的性品申訴而不是一個行政人力"},{"start":241.455,"end":268.209,"text":"還要去肩負更多的行政工作的時候他根本事實上是沒有辦法把這件事情能夠完備的做好所以更重要的是這項制度強調的是資源先行在案件初期的時候著重在提供當事人的支持措施後續也是否要啟動調查也會完全尊重當事人的意願使制度不僅是處理案件更能夠回應當事人的需求"},{"start":269.009,"end":292.211,"text":"這個我們會比較期待是不是可以去做這樣的一個考量那不過當然我要強調如果我們對於性平校園的性平案件只停留在發生後的處理那就永遠都是在不破網後續真的事實上就很難再次去真正避免傷害的再次發生所以不管是我們的CRC的24條"},{"start":294.437,"end":319.617,"text":"甚至兒權公約的第15號一般意見書都提到性別教育是人權是他們基本的人權也是國家保障兒少人權的一環所以我始終認為性教育的核心不該只是身體或避孕知識而是要讓孩子學會理解關係跟建立界線並在互動當中具備自我保護跟尊重他人的能力"},{"start":320.157,"end":342.806,"text":"所以如果同联合国倡议的全面性教育性教育的课程应该涵盖性别平等情感理解人际沟通身体自主甚至是数位的试读最后大家就是根据台湾的性别平等教育协会的调查台湾现行的课纲来偏向风险预防"},{"start":344.426,"end":360.497,"text":"駕少觸及關係跟權力互動同時教師也常因為教材的不足跟家長的壓力我想剛剛前面也在提到有沒有有些教材上甚至老師訴說的可能都會變成事實上對老師的一些抨擊所以是不是有更好的一個"},{"start":362.208,"end":382.766,"text":"好的教材讓教學能夠落實所以我認為制度上應該朝向三個方向調整第一個 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陳情協助的一個服務項目喔"},{"start":90.129,"end":108.091,"text":"那我去了解一下我們從這個表格來看我們採用前面的網路預約好那我們在2023年我們可以來提供給民眾來考照的一個預約的一個名額的額度"},{"start":110.393,"end":137.366,"text":"有35萬人左右但是啊到2024年就整個遞減2025更遞減到28萬人整個名額啊下降讓民眾整個為了考驗照像我們要去那一國外請就要去找要去預約然後又預約不到我們不是要鼓勵我們所有的"},{"start":138.767,"end":159.54,"text":"國民我們要安全駕駛我們要取得駕駛執照之後才能夠安全上路嗎但是這個口罩為什麼會變成這麼困難保障力感才是民生最迫切的一個問題我最近其實也密集跟公路局在討論這個問題"},{"start":161.201,"end":174.974,"text":"因為確實民眾已經有反應而且不是一小段時間已經好幾個月都有反應這樣的現象那我們不應該讓民眾在考照的過程當中遇到這樣的困難不應該啊這個事實就是存在像委員報告他其實預約制已經施行10年從105年到現在所以問題不在預約制"},{"start":181.98,"end":194.025,"text":"是我們這個供給的部分可能不符合現在的需求那我有要求這個公路局在短時間之內我們先做一個措施讓他可以成長10%的這個提供的名額過去的網路預約沒問題為何近兩年會產生這樣的問題"},{"start":200.354,"end":224.863,"text":"這個要檢討啊 那我也有去了解 最重要因為現在整個預約大家去搶 那會變成就像搶門票一樣嘛大家都要搶 大家都去搶你知道嗎那你一搶 你就會發覺 他只要搶到 他就登錄 對不對但是時間到了 他不去 他不去考"},{"start":225.763,"end":244.38,"text":"就是這樣的一個報名,預約到的名額,就變成被浪費掉了大家都,我們說,南韓話叫做,上秋,上夜,上晨,上夜嘛他就去站了,站了到時候時間到了,他就缺考,結果這些名額"},{"start":245.501,"end":267.482,"text":"就沒辦法來適時的使用嘛我們從去年的一個報考人數我們來看28萬9千人的報考只有21萬8千人去真正的倒考有7萬1千人根本沒有去也就是啊 大家看不看得到四分之一的人根本沒去考"},{"start":268.323,"end":285.897,"text":"不去考 大家就出事 產生這麼嚴重的問題所以在這樣的情況 想考的人沒辦法去考 報的名的人不去考產生這樣的一個網路 預約的黑洞在那裡"},{"start":287.018,"end":297.044,"text":"這個部分我們有檢討要怎麼處理嗎謝謝委員關心您所關心的這個議題其實我們之前有檢討過那在之前1月之前今年1月之前報考率是75%我們檢討完換了新機制之後現在的報考率是到97%已經到97%了但是目前的情況能夠釋出的名額會更多"},{"start":309.791,"end":328.158,"text":"有能夠來提 讓到考慮啊整個提升就是我們的要求嘛 對不對因為我們的能量一直在低減 我剛剛有講嘛我們提供的能量 民耳一直在低減那你到考慮一定要提升啊不然民眾的有一個埋怨啊"},{"start":329.119,"end":342.82,"text":"還是存在 像委員報告一方面倒考率提升那二方面我會讓整體的可以考的名額再提升 名額要增加我這邊就有提出建議了我希望倒考率的名額要釋出那要滾"},{"start":344.542,"end":369.755,"text":"滾動的一個檢討你讓民眾要考一個技術的教學變成困難這個就一定要處理要檢討了好不好我們公路局也在這邊我們希望一起來讓民眾能夠有考個駕照能夠更方便好不好那接下來我在這邊也要討論提出一個"},{"start":370.955,"end":392.173,"text":"建議我們現在反正油價上漲我們通勤組運用大眾運輸工具的一個情況越來越多尤其高鐵台北台中南部台北這樣的一個用高鐵來通勤的一個比例人數越來越多"},{"start":393.314,"end":410.235,"text":"那我在這邊我有發覺我們高鐵這邊有一個這個票制彈性不夠彈性不夠它在郵費方面它只有兩種一個叫經濟票一個叫回溯票那前陣子我們高鐵有在"},{"start":411.816,"end":420.74,"text":"討論這個票價的調漲嘛 要調整當然目前因為中東戰爭因素還有整個帕海這個漲價影響我們的一個通貨膨脹我相信高鐵是不會漲價 不會漲價但是啊 它過去我們在定期票的部分它過去 希望去到崗位省"},{"start":436.986,"end":462.596,"text":"那二十天下去算就是禮拜六禮拜天不算了一天兩天它的折扣算起來應該在一萬三千兩百三十塊後來現在就改成只有一種定期票一天二十天改成三十天存一張存一張那一張下去處理就變成了"},{"start":463.456,"end":491.371,"text":"他的定期票會變成我這個是以台中跟台北為例子台中跟台北一天兩座來說你該做三十天來算我的定期票一個月就要花到一千九百多一萬九千八百四十五塊以我台北台中這樣來算所以其實這裡就有變相的一個調漲價格就通情主來"},{"start":492.892,"end":520.029,"text":"來講 我原來的定期票我改中再改半我一公尺百分之一萬三現在都要變成一萬九另外一種又會就叫做回溯票我們來看回溯票回溯票你目前只有兩種一種是三十天的十次八二折另外一種是六十天的八次九二折所以我們剛才要給我們顧提供的就是定期票你調成從"},{"start":521.77,"end":549.101,"text":"二十天的調整三十天只有一種變相漲價第二個你的回溯票你只有一個三十天做十趟的八二折六十天做八趟九二折那我在這邊我建議因為我每天也是一樣這個台中台北這樣同情我們的建議就是我在這邊提出建議回溯票的制度"},{"start":549.861,"end":569.159,"text":"是不是可以來增加回書票你目前30天只有10張你能不能來研議啊我比如說我一個月內40張還是20天內40張那個折扣數啊你可以從原來的92折82折去調整成類似我建議的65折讓這個"},{"start":576.325,"end":596.924,"text":"彈性 優惠的彈性更多讓通勤組的民眾更方便來使用這也是因應我們票價未來可能挑戰的一個方案在這裡是不是請交通部長還是我們高鐵局這邊能夠做一個高鐵公司這邊做個回應"},{"start":598.127,"end":616.5,"text":"謝謝委員您剛剛說的那個條帳的部分目前都不是真正在落實的方案其實高鐵各種方案都在滾動檢討委員您現在在建議的這個20日40次的這個部分我們也請高鐵公司把它納入檢討的範圍裡面我們來討論看有沒有這樣的可能性您的說法沒有錯啦"},{"start":617.16,"end":623.984,"text":"讓他更有彈性讓這個通勤組有更有彈性更多的選擇讓我們的票價定期票回溯票這樣的一個優惠能夠更有彈性那目前其實也有其他的委員有其他的建議包含30天跟60天中間再差一個"},{"start":634.489,"end":641.097,"text":"那彈性是正確的了所以現在高鐵公司也有在做檢查高鐵公司應該更加的靈活啦好不好所以以後為了一個制度更加的靈活這是我的建議好 以上 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那這個是伊朗的部分那赫姆茲海峽那個海峽出口它影響到的國家有伊朗 伊拉克 沙烏地 阿拉伯阿拉伯 聯合大公國 巴林 卡達等等這些國家的油跟天然氣我們台灣有沒有採購"},{"start":104.486,"end":132.508,"text":"呃 有 我們經過荷姆斯海峽的那個油漆大約佔百分之三十四左右我們的對你現在講什麼天然氣三十四就是我們天然氣會經過荷姆斯海峽台灣從這個經過荷姆斯海峽運輸的天然氣佔我們國內的進口量三十四趴油呢油差不多是呃 六十二趴六十二趴沒關係 我可以接受葉管直接講你的聲音也可以出現"},{"start":133.942,"end":159.994,"text":"所以其實如果荷姆茲海峽封鎖不能運送對我國的能源供應其實會吃緊的那安全儲備量涉及國安我就不問了但是這兩個命題為什麼要分開問外交部次長跟經濟部主秘這兩個題目不一樣如果美國是封鎖伊朗的每個港口跟"},{"start":162.309,"end":179.767,"text":"伊朗跟美國的戰爭封鎖了荷姆茲海峽這兩個命題對我國的經濟跟國家安全有沒有差別有差別喔 差別很大喔如果伊朗的石油天然氣消失就你們手上的資訊你們的了解全世界哪個國家會受害"},{"start":180.367,"end":205.027,"text":"中國會最嚴重對啊 這已經不是標準答案 這要基本嘗試因為伊朗它的油百分之八十消亡亞洲而最大甚至於幾乎是唯一的buyer就是中國可是荷姆茲海峽會影響每一國因為荷姆茲海峽控制了全球的油跟氣全世界百分之二十"},{"start":206.021,"end":230.422,"text":"然後伊朗的天然氣呢佔全世界的17%石油佔9%到12%這兩個數字再加總起來看你就會知道從荷姆茲海峽出來其實伊朗的油跟氣佔大宗那只是因為我們台灣不是一個能源生產國所以我們從這邊運輸過來的佔比佔我們比較重可是佔全世界來講如果扣掉伊朗的話"},{"start":231.519,"end":253.25,"text":"其實荷姆斯海峽影響全世界的油跟氣的佔比就沒那麼高了所以川普打了先打委內瑞拉再打伊朗其實是算過的委內瑞拉的油源控制加上美國是最現在是全世界大概前幾名吧大概幾乎最大的產油產氣國所以他把最大的儲量的委內瑞拉"},{"start":254.17,"end":276.673,"text":"跟最大產出的美國先抓在手上然後赫姆斯海峽一封受影響的台灣會受影響但是如果現在美國剛才在進行的是對伊朗的港口的封鎖那對台灣如果赫姆斯海峽可以走的話只是封鎖從伊朗港口出來的話經濟部你們評估"},{"start":278.69,"end":305.947,"text":"這對我們的經濟影響是什麼包委員這當然如同剛剛委員講的對我們來講我們就可以在經濟安全上面壓力就會小很多也會避免剛剛所提到因為能源安全壓力所造成國內在整個有物料的一個供給還有相關價格上漲的壓力所以對整個經濟發展其實是非常有正面影響我國的安全儲量是國安機密那中國的油跟氣的儲量是多少你們有沒有這個數據"},{"start":309.175,"end":322.559,"text":"45天了,他們有公布過了,45天嘛那現在這個荷姆茲海峽跟伊朗的油氣不能運送幾天了?你們有沒有統計?40幾天,46 46天是戰爭喔,但荷姆茲海峽的運輸線被斷掉是幾天?"},{"start":333.581,"end":360.61,"text":"你們沒有算這個 你怎麼去算這個危機啊我不在考你們數據 你知道嗎這邊的運輸 這個都數學問題啊運輸是一個logistic flow 是一個數學問題那個地方占比多少 封了幾天哪一個國家進口量最大 哪一個國家怎麼樣那是可以算的 然後現在偷跑出三條船是哪幾國的 是不小心跑掉還是刻意的 那個都有影響所以外交部跟經濟部要來這邊回答問題 你這個"},{"start":362.574,"end":376.69,"text":"基礎數據要有嘛要不然我怎麼跟你算這個物流嘛你懂我意思嗎所以經過這樣回推我們就可以計算啊比方說在中國的台商他的AC塑膠油料"},{"start":379.269,"end":406.403,"text":"那個價格暴漲的時間大概不遠或者中國也許不會暴漲只要不賣你他就限縮他就說那個中國的名詞叫什麼有序管控有序管控就是不賣就可以斷掉嘛那台灣當然我們知道自己的安全存量可是我們台灣受伊朗的影響小受荷姆茲的影響大那荷姆茲什麼時候可以全線開通牽涉到水雷牽涉到什麼部分這個其實局勢還在演變"},{"start":407.884,"end":419.611,"text":"我最後要請教兩個部會那第一個如果荷姆澤海峽封鎖繼續持續下去你們的備案是什麼 經濟部"},{"start":422.216,"end":445.641,"text":"我們主要就是要第一個就是看在中東地區部分有沒有辦法走那個類似像鴻海其他的一個那個運輸管道你的能可不可以就不叫備案可以才叫備案有沒有備案目前我們在進行就是這樣方向第一個如果中東就是換他的那個管道另外就是從其他非中東地區那個管道只有阿拉伯沙烏地阿拉伯有嘛他有一個大pipe嘛"},{"start":446.041,"end":465.962,"text":"然後直接從波斯灣這邊拉到另外一頭紅海那邊去嘛那紅海那邊雖然葉門那個什麼兄弟會在那邊導彈他火力沒那麼強嘛你們的備案是這個還有另外從其他非中東地區增加供海量對所以現在最主要都是從非中東地區增加現貨的角度那非中東地區哪些國家美國"},{"start":467.063,"end":486.676,"text":"主要是來自於美國 澳洲澳洲是天然氣啦是 美國主要是原油的部分是原油嘛 是它的頁岩油啊什麼的所以這個備案在執行了沒目前已經在執行我們已經掌握到六月份我們本來會從荷姆茲海峽的部分我們找其他中東地區已經確定那個來源都已經確定了那我問你一個關鍵問題假設荷姆茲海峽持續封鎖我們經濟部對於我們油價穩定塑膠原料石化業的供應"},{"start":497.113,"end":500.031,"text":"AC 柏油 瀝青等等這些是廢料的供應"},{"start":501.936,"end":529.02,"text":"價格的穩定你們認為國人可以樂觀幾個月 未來目前我們還是要看整個國際那個月相關價格我現在已經給你一個前提我們所有的想定在國防部叫兵推你們知道經濟局勢的想定其實台灣政經兵推很久沒做了這個是屬於政經兵推想定一定從最差想定到最好嘛最差就是和睦之海峽一直封嘛封個一年好了啦"},{"start":530.011,"end":542.793,"text":"那我才問你的備案 備案不叫做看可不可以 備案叫做可以才叫備案所以根據你們現有備案根據最壞局勢想定我們國人不管是企業或者是一般民眾對於油氣"},{"start":545.296,"end":561.197,"text":"塑化原料以及最基礎的這種AC鋪面相關的部分對於以現在的價格來看持穩雖然中油可能某些企業我們國營企業會付出代價這個持穩的信心我們可以保持多久"},{"start":562.04,"end":590.653,"text":"包委如果剛剛委員隨便所提的它影響成品其實不只是油價它會影響到國內物價所以我會看國內整個經濟的狀況跟物價狀況再來做每週跟每月檢討我現在告訴你就是說你能告訴國人說未來三個月不用擔心我們都有備案了所以最壞的局勢我們價格波動不會超過百分之十百分之八百分之五這個才叫做信心喊話你剛才講的我會看局勢然後怎麼樣"},{"start":592.048,"end":612.554,"text":"沒有人會覺得局勢好就應該價格高一點的啦沒有這種東西啦所以我就問你對於這樣的信心你們認為期程可以多久因為我們現在量的部分其實很確定所以在量確定的狀況之下我們學總經的需求跟供應就是決定價格嘛你的量你的supply quantity如果確定"},{"start":613.479,"end":630.514,"text":"那demand就是我們國內2300萬人產業這也是固定的所以你的備案其實是在把supply這個量固定下來那那個optimal的那個價格就不會波動太厲害嘛所以我的意思是 多久?這個信息要多久?"},{"start":630.894,"end":656.648,"text":"目前我們掌握量確定來源部分已經掌握到六月底了現在七月部分已經在積極的佈局當中現在四月中你們到六月底之前已經掌握了量也就是供應量到六月底無餘那需求有時候會有囤積啊這個因為心理恐慌心理性的買壓它會有一些波動但至少現有需求的供應量掌握到六月底我這樣理解沒錯嘛那七月份正在談當中嘛"},{"start":657.608,"end":685.204,"text":"那備案是來自於繞道鴻海那邊或者是其他國家的供應量嘛這個是用最差狀況來想但如果荷姆斯海峽可以解封那我們大概受影響就低了然後如果荷姆斯海峽解封伊朗被封住那其實對我們來講未必是利空喔搞不好是利多喔因為另外一邊的競爭對手那邊他的油源不見了嘛好那個最後30秒請教外交部"},{"start":687.008,"end":707.311,"text":"就你們現在掌握的外交局勢 荷姆斯海峽雖然那個看起來不像停戰的停戰協議還在進行當中那今天明天美國伊朗還要繼續第二輪的談判就你們現在掌握的外交訊息 荷姆斯海峽恢復運輸是可期待或暫時無法期待"},{"start":708.226,"end":725.994,"text":"我覺得是說整個來看的時候的發展來說的話是不需要太悲觀但是說他有技術上面有一些困難比如說水雷水雷他們派了艦隊是幾艘軍艦平行的往裡面開又開出來其實那個在測水道啦沒錯然後呢"},{"start":727.554,"end":749.755,"text":"伊朗的水雷叫做不負責任水雷,不是智慧水雷,他自己不知道跑到哪裡去不知道跑到哪裡去,現在水雷叫他放了之後就他們的第二次談話,就外交部現在從我們的主要盟友那邊得到訊息,荷姆茲海峽在交戰國下決定開放的結果是可期待或不可期待"},{"start":751.395,"end":763.4,"text":"我要說的話是說不需要太過於悲觀為什麼一定要用別的話來回答我的問題我想我們還是要審慎的來評估因為我們沒有參與到這個談判不能太悲觀但是也不敢太期待"},{"start":764.987,"end":792.267,"text":"我想期待還是可以期待啦我想整個大的一個情勢來看因為這很快大概十天內就會先排了像是這一個我們看到不是你如果說可以期待後來先排是開放你就會被封神嘛對不對沒有沒有不敢那你說不能期待或者你講錯了被笑而已也不會怎樣嘛所以我的意思是說這一個你知道經濟裡面除了實質供應量實質需求量以外影響經濟有一個很重要的事"},{"start":793.027,"end":808.329,"text":"心理因素心理因素的穩定就不會囤積心理因素的穩定就不會搶購那個價格的波動其實以台灣這麼穩定的國家常常是因為心理因素所以我剛才用這個問題就叫兩個不"},{"start":810.171,"end":834.914,"text":"一個是對外一個對內 但是經濟部在物價上一定要把心理因素考慮在內過度的謹慎 怕怎麼樣其實如果你掌握的量 掌握的來源沒有問題要讓民眾知道說你現在唱的不好 六月底我都賣掉了七月份也在打麻 這個影響很大 是好不好所以我希望今天祖密來了 回去讓部長知道適度的時候"},{"start":836.212,"end":845.566,"text":"心理因素是一個國家經濟 物價 安全很重要的一個因素請兩個部會記在心裡面 謝謝是 一定 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168528","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168528","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ec77822e2e6eae3b95a94fccfe9aa90354b0245b1feb43225bca6d85ad377ff7fc8a76f1bb69cd85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪毓祥","委員發言時間":"09:52:27 - 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謝謝主席有請運動部跟經濟部經濟部 運動部黃市長 經濟部何市長兩位市長好"},{"start":29.793,"end":40.017,"text":"我是支持運動科技那可能各位應該在過去這個在運動科技的一個促進發展可能也知道這個來龍去脈"},{"start":42.557,"end":61.269,"text":"但是呢我再幫各位複習一下因為當時我也參與過在從整個2021年行政院GRB也就是我們的科技策略會議確認了跨部會的運動成科技策略所以從22年行動計畫核定之後大概我們就編了46億"},{"start":63.82,"end":91.118,"text":"但是目前我看起來是有點混亂也就是說到底有哪些計畫各部會的分工預算因為它已經開始執行了所以執行到哪然後到底這個效果如何那這樣的東西我實在是看不到一張完整的總表我也把各兩個部會的報告等等這整個都來看一下然後我看在當時我們還有列入這個"},{"start":94.094,"end":116.233,"text":"這個除了這個國科會還有這個衛福部因為當時的預算是國科會下來的對不對所以基本上來講還有衛福部嘛這個在分配當時的預算都有所以我覺得現在下一個問題就是剛好這邊畫的還缺了一些東西就是說到底"},{"start":117.573,"end":125.65,"text":"誰要負責我們這樣子看起來都好像就是最不缺分工合作可是每次要救者或者是說我要會者 我要找誰運動部還是經濟部"},{"start":130.638,"end":145.664,"text":"誰可以回答我我是不是跟委員報告因為我們有一個運動產業發展的一個綱領那這個綱領是由運動部這邊來主政所以我們各部會其實都是在這樣綱領之下我們會去所以是運動部是來運動部次長"},{"start":150.396,"end":171.43,"text":"所以你要去幫我做出這些東西出來你手上有這些東西嗎預算分配然後各計畫做到哪裡KPI執行進度運動科技的這個SRV計畫的主責單位為國科會預算由他們編列那從2022年到2026年這個階段今年是走到最後一年已經完成了第一個階段"},{"start":172.651,"end":184.056,"text":"前一陣子在體育署階段我們承接的計畫只有人才培育跟那個場域驗證所以在這個46例是國科會要負責然後之後2026年之後的計畫才會是你們負責不是還是這個經費來源來自於國科會他有不同的計畫來推動那目前有一個所以各位"},{"start":194.8,"end":204.128,"text":"就看得到了 這個我太了解這些產業的結構然後問國科院 國科院就會去找你們去找各部會然後我都完全看不到一張總表"},{"start":205.97,"end":226.001,"text":"那你說這不是你的問題我也可以理解大家就是這樣子但是既然是國科會下次我就問國科會所以這個是一個問題每一個大型的計畫從這種看不到下來都是這種問題然後我都問不到到底我這整個計畫預算投入下去到底成效是什麼綜合的成果是什麼"},{"start":226.741,"end":254.608,"text":"所以呢我就查不到這46億到底是怎麼花然後呢到底你是集中投資還是雨露均沾分散撒錢根據我過去幫這些各部位做的經驗都是在分散撒錢然後合起來不知道是什麼東西ABCD SILO一堆然後我們看不到overall的整體的成效我不希望我關懷的運動科技也會走到這一步因為趁現在還早"},{"start":256.892,"end":276.948,"text":"可以嗎好這個拜託兩位部要合作一下再來在運動部底下的話有國家運動科學中心這個當然就是用科學的方式訓練選手不管是在醫療照護數據的收集等等但是呢在審計部這裡頭說你們蓋的這個大樓19.6億嘗試算一點人才這些到底現在有沒有到位這審計部的審計問題來請教次長"},{"start":286.789,"end":295.878,"text":"目前他們的人力編制上面應該是達到80%左右的一個人力配置他們目前的最主要的任務還是針對我們培訓隊在運動科學檢測上面提供了詳細的偵測他們內部也做了一個數據的個人的資料庫跟一個數據平台來統整"},{"start":306.429,"end":328.338,"text":"平時測到的這些數據作為個人資料的一個追蹤我為什麼會這樣子問因為在你的運動部的轄下底下除了病科中心之外你們還有一個籌設的叫運動產業發展中心還是運動訓練中心這大家比較國訓中心這大家比較清楚那運動產業的發展很多就是跟你剛剛講這些資料"},{"start":329.859,"end":346.11,"text":"科學東西有關所以我希望這兩個中心要好好合作也就是說在運科中心裡頭所做的這些的選手們的醫療的檢測數據的收集那麼到了這個地方也就是我常講的就是"},{"start":347.216,"end":354.625,"text":"我們資料治理是運動科技的一個核心是那我可能也希望這個我們的這個聖人節我們的這個運動的這個發展中心能夠好好擔負起這個任務因為"},{"start":362.915,"end":385.048,"text":"運動科技最終你還是要跟經濟部合作整個在這裡頭我們希望做的是我們運動產業的科技的大腦然後你可以負責不管是民間的技術帶到運科還是我們運科裡頭針對我們這些特殊項目的這些選手的訓練的數據是可以把它open出這些data然後承接到我們的這些AI的一個應用"},{"start":385.828,"end":410.616,"text":"那這樣子帶到經濟部裡頭去不管你是在我們的這也是要問經濟部的就是說在我們的自行車ICT硬體到底哪一些是我們可以把它應用起來所以我今天是帶著期許那我也告訴各位過去的計畫就是最前面的overall還是要有人去管控那不管是經濟部或者是運動部不要仰賴國歌 國歌只會給你們錢"},{"start":411.957,"end":438.602,"text":"跟委員報告剛剛所提到那個運動科技的那件事情從去年開始國科已經指派了運科中心擔任那個運動科技的PM已經逐步開始在做很多所以如果運科還是在你底下嘛所以還是應該運動部來做沙律會診這樣子啦好不好那我下次再問你們艾美也提交一個這樣的報告讓我知道現在整個執行的狀況跟進度那甚至包含未來的規劃好不好好謝謝好謝謝洪議長"}]}},{"id":"17352","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17352","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/16eb79f0bb3b77db0554717462f89e5bd4828ff2e654818d847b9569dcea103d874044244e0432da5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2026-04-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員會主任委員、運動部首長、教育部首長及財政部首長就「我國運動產業發展之政策規劃、人才培育、跨部會資源整合、相關租稅優惠執行成效、未來產值提升目標，及先進國家運動產業政策之分析比較」進行報告，並備質詢。\n【4月15日及4月16日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2026-04-15","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2026-04-15T08:36:49+08:00","end_time":"2026-04-15T11:45:00+08:00","duration":11291,"影片長度":"03:08:11","委員發言時間":"08:36:49 - 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剛我拍的那四個位置是次長有另外的座位"},{"start":96.185,"end":107.491,"text":"所以这边可以在家里用,建议是选择我们的方式。你们是想看我不OK?好,谢谢,谢谢。好,谢谢,谢谢。"},{"start":118.677,"end":138.555,"text":"你來想一想,你常常都認不出來,就去問我好,請問一下我們正想多聰明,我們還可以有蠻多人嗎?這時候我們都想要看,跟主持人講我們要跟主持人聊幾次,也會很不順暢少來,當然"},{"start":156.71,"end":159.271,"text":"然後再做一個給我"},{"start":188.244,"end":190.585,"text":"蜂蜜"},{"start":199.595,"end":205.217,"text":"這間餐廳的餐廳有很多不同的餐廳。"},{"start":223.892,"end":240.981,"text":"這禮拜五下午有請假嗎?這個禮拜五沒有?沒有我會想說那就禮拜五下午好了下午要幹嘛?就是你們不是本來講那個玉山那個喔這禮拜五下午因為他今天搞不好就應該就會彈奏在想今天不知道寫什麼今天下午要寫什麼?明天再寫"},{"start":248.409,"end":254.225,"text":"這間餐廳的餐廳的名稱是"},{"start":276.706,"end":277.207,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":327.256,"end":327.276,"text":"鞭筍"},{"start":342.443,"end":343.464,"text":"這間餐廳的餐廳是一間餐廳"},{"start":379.016,"end":380.356,"text":"鸡蛋糕"},{"start":407.005,"end":431.647,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":482.698,"end":504.067,"text":"妳看喔 妳看它竟然上面有一層這個灰還好竹蜜擦一下 不然妳今天穿的是粉紅色衣服就是白色衣服掉在妳身上 覺得很麻煩他們也不稍微清一下"},{"start":535.313,"end":535.653,"text":"哈喽"},{"start":551.35,"end":552.811,"text":"中文字幕志愿者"},{"start":580.986,"end":581.006,"text":"鞭筍"},{"start":610.327,"end":611.608,"text":"可以加水丁"},{"start":640.137,"end":640.157,"text":"就這個"},{"start":650.711,"end":666.028,"text":"然後我問趙偉辦公室,趙偉辦公室說他們都知道,所以不可能就是給你們看趙偉,有些趙偉會要求,他們加的還要給我,就不像之前那樣,我講說他們都知道,趙偉也不是我們跟他們關聯的,然後他們覺得OK,所以我跟趙偉沒確認過"},{"start":686.416,"end":687.316,"text":"嗯嗯嗯嗯"},{"start":721.842,"end":722.723,"text":"太麻痴了"},{"start":939.07,"end":939.411,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":1068.899,"end":1069.68,"text":"谢谢观看 欢迎订阅我的频道"},{"start":1398.7,"end":1417.911,"text":"好我們現在且先請組密報告初期人數報告委員會初期委員12人已組法定人數好我們現在開會進行報告事項請宣讀上次會議事錄立法院第11屆第5會級經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議事錄時間115年4月9日星期四9時至12時19分地點紅樓101會議室初期委員陳廷輝等14人列行委員郭玉琴等11人"},{"start":1426.696,"end":1449.249,"text":"內席人員 經濟部部長龔明欣 農業部部長陳靜季 公民教育委員會代理主任委員陳志明衛生福利部政務次長林靜儀等主席 召集委員洪俊祥報告事項一 宣讀上次會議事錄 決定 確定二 邀請經濟部部長 農業部部長 公民教育委員會代理主任委員衛生福利部首長 防護部首長 以及行政院消費者保護處首長"},{"start":1450.45,"end":1477.341,"text":"就中中衝突加劇市場不確定性 自國內包括以吸塑膠化肥瀝青等石化原物料及物流成本增加 旅船缺料囤化現象等之問題評估因應策略與現況進行報告並被質詢經濟部部長龔明新 農業部部長陳靜季 公平交易委員會代理主任委員陳志明及衛生福利部政務次長林靜儀報告後委員陳丁飛等18人提出質詢 據經濟部部長龔明新等及其答覆"},{"start":1478.584,"end":1495.472,"text":"決定一登記發言委員除不在場者外區經營發言完畢訓達結束二委員陳昭明林儲英及陳基隆所提書面質詢列入進入刊登公報三書面質詢和問及答覆部分請相關單位於週內以書面答覆並複製本會委員另有要求期限者從即鎖定上會宣布完畢"},{"start":1496.71,"end":1522.195,"text":"好這個意思待會再確定現在繼續進行報告事項請宣讀邀請經濟部部長國家發展委員會主任委員運動部首長教育部首長及財政部首長就我國運動產業發展之政策規劃人才培育跨部會資源整合相關租稅優惠執行成效未來產值提升目標及先進國家運動產業政策之分析比較進行報告並被質詢宣讀完畢好"},{"start":1525.656,"end":1550.09,"text":"這個本日議程主席是排定我國運動產業發展的政策規劃以及人才培育跨部會的志願整合相關注視於會執行的成效以及未來產值的提升的目標以及跟先進國家運動產業政策的分析比較進行專案報告並備質詢今天有準備書面報告包括經濟部、國安會、運動部、教育部以及財政部"},{"start":1551.03,"end":1570.627,"text":"那待會依序會請各部會進行今天的報告因為今天報告裡面都有書面待會各所長上來報告的時候是不是就書面資料簡要不要逐字念簡要做一些的說明好首先請經濟部政務司長何市長先做報告"},{"start":1579.502,"end":1599.673,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位女士 先生大家好感謝貴委員會邀請經濟部就我國運動產業發展的政策規劃人才培育跨部會資源整合相關出稅優惠執行成效未來產值提升的目標以及先進國家運動產業政策之分析比較進行報告 敬請各位委員不吝指教"},{"start":1600.745,"end":1608.736,"text":"那依據這個運動產業發展條例第六條規定中央主管機關應該要會商中央目的世界主管機關來擬定運動產業發展政策那本部以該綱領作為上位的政策依據跟運動部來合作"},{"start":1615.925,"end":1639.642,"text":"推動運動產業相關的政策那以下就經濟部主管的這個相關的運動產業發展現況還有推動的作為跟各位做說明那第一個是運動產業的運動用品的一個製造業產品的項目包括球拍等項那產值目前有702億元新台幣出口值519億元主要銷售市場是在美國等四個國家"},{"start":1640.382,"end":1658.432,"text":"那另外自行車及零組件製造業產品項目包括自行車等項產值有1460億元出口值862.8億元主要銷售市場是在歐盟等三個國家運動用品及自行車批發零售業那在批發營業額是有1282.8億元零售營業額有290.4億元那在人才培訓執行成效的部分本部所屬的國營事業"},{"start":1670.499,"end":1678.549,"text":"這個透過慕尼的經費及建教合作提供國小到大學體育獎助金及經費及訓練的經費112年到114年累計投入總共超過7800萬元那另外我們也協助產業來推動低碳化智慧化及AI"},{"start":1689.942,"end":1705.768,"text":"這個應用人才的這個培訓那在112年及114年總共辦理的8394人次的這個AI應用的人才的這個培訓等課程那至於租稅優惠執行的成效部分在申請研發投資底檢的部分"},{"start":1707.989,"end":1715.818,"text":"111到113年運動用品製造業等總共申請件數123件研發製作金額合計18.88億元那在設備投資底點的部分111年至113年的運動用品製造業等申請的件數共33件設備投資金額合計14.55億元"},{"start":1729.392,"end":1740.634,"text":"那在技術開發執行的成效的部分那有我們協助了整個這個產業做了以下的一些技術跟產業發展的一個優化第一個是開發高里徵虛擬互動一體機的這個技術這個結合這個平台業者整合設備業者跨業轉型提供系統廠商在室內球場等來快速佈建第二是開發AI"},{"start":1755.957,"end":1758.118,"text":"虛擬教練的技術加速高福模擬系統在運動科技產業的創新應用與實證並已經導入2025四創運動場的實地驗證第三是建立運動健身智慧系統化的服務已經導入桃園機場保全等場地的服務驗證"},{"start":1778.157,"end":1805.837,"text":"那再來就是開發棒球鷹眼的這個系統協助棒球數據收集與判決科技化已經在114年計轉資訊服務業者導入在天母棒球場再來就是協助高雄市的中校國中棒球隊及台東縣的紅葉國小棒球隊等導入科技棒球九宮格系統與AI打擊數據分析技術"},{"start":1807.359,"end":1818.352,"text":"至於原發轉型的一個補助的成效我們在112年到114年協助我們補助我們這個運動用品及自行車製造業申請這個協助傳統產業技術開發計畫總共有10家補助金額1865萬元"},{"start":1827.743,"end":1838.928,"text":"這個112年到114年補助運動用品及自行車製造業進行低碳化及智慧化升級的部分總共有27家補助金額7200萬元"},{"start":1841.969,"end":1862.202,"text":"那另外針對產創的主題是研發補助的部分在112年至114年總共補助11案28家業者總共補助金額是1億3050萬元那另外小型企業創新研發補助SBR的部分112年至114年總共補助10家的業者補助金額是950萬元促進投資金額計1391.5萬元"},{"start":1868.266,"end":1874.769,"text":"那未來在市場拓銷的部分我們在過去113年及114年已經輔導了三家運動用品批發及零售業者在國內增設實體銷售距離有40處及國內線上銷售距離1處那另外在112年及114年也透過"},{"start":1888.874,"end":1894.959,"text":"台灣國際專業的這個專業展的網站每年吸引超過90萬人次來造訪並掐腰國際買主總共2156人來台也補助了1286家次的業者參加52個國際展"},{"start":1905.587,"end":1922.375,"text":"本部後續將會依照運動產業發展條例的規定針對運動用品及自行車產業持續提供人才培訓等並會同相關部會共同推動運動產業的發展以上報告敬請各位委員執政私交謝謝大家 謝謝好 謝謝何市長的報告接下來請國發會請葉助委報告"},{"start":1933.48,"end":1948.752,"text":"主席各位委員以及媒體先進大家好那今天很榮幸應邀到經濟委員會針對我國運動產業發展之政策規劃人才培育跨部會資源整合相關注稅優惠執行成效未來產值提升目標"},{"start":1949.532,"end":1960.557,"text":"其先進國家運動產業之分析比較進行報告那敬請各位委員不定指教行政院在去年9月9號成立運動部專責中立全國運動政策為促進運動產業多元化營造運動產業良好環境運動部依照運動產業發展條例"},{"start":1971.181,"end":1988.608,"text":"以會統相關部會檢討修正運動產業發展綱領該部也將建構運動作為平台的治理架構推動跨領域政策與運動場域落實本會也會適時提供必要之協助"},{"start":1989.128,"end":2014.238,"text":"在國際指標性運動人才延攬方面本會自107年推動就業金卡制度為主動出擊延攬國際指標性運動人才本會目前正在跟運動部合作研議在鬆綁運動領域之就業金卡資格條件讓我國所需運動界國際精英人才來台就業共同推升我國運動產業的發展"},{"start":2015.598,"end":2021.32,"text":"那另外依據運動產業發展條例第13條規定國發基金應提撥一定比例投資運動產業國發基金已與運動部合作透過主題400億投資方案將運動產業納入重點支持領域目前運動部課證研擬運動部"},{"start":2036.985,"end":2052.632,"text":"運用國家發展基金提撥投資管理辦法並規劃將相關投資方案提報國發基金管理會討論以完備制度設計與參與運作機制那為促進產業運動產業發展本會將配合運動部藉由政策整合人才國際化與產業運動產業投資多軌並行建構劇烈性的運動產業生態系以上報告進行指教謝謝大家"},{"start":2067.21,"end":2071.714,"text":"好 謝謝國務卿主委報告 國務卿主委的報告說好像要整理一個運動產業的這個百億發展計畫這個運動部市長 增加100億經費好 謝謝卿主委報告 接下來請運動部請黃次長做報告"},{"start":2097.856,"end":2112.884,"text":"主席各位委員先進大家好很感謝運動部今天受邀到經濟委員會來報告就主席才是的就我國運動產業政策規劃等題目向各位委員提出簡要的報告敬請多多的指教"},{"start":2113.664,"end":2127.256,"text":"首先,運動部對運動產業的定位非常明確我們認為運動已經不只是競技或休閒的活動而是結合健康促進、內需消費、服務創新"},{"start":2129.838,"end":2144.961,"text":"文化認同與國家競爭力的重要產業領域因此運動部成立之後將施政的視野由傳統的體育行政進一步提升到國家產業發展與公共治理的層次"},{"start":2145.822,"end":2163.994,"text":"根据本部卫星账的推估,114年,我国整体运动产业产值可达新台币6027亿,显示台湾的运动参与、运动消费及运动服务需求逐步形成稳定成长的市场基础。"},{"start":2176.122,"end":2188.853,"text":"智慧运动跨域共创全民参与健全生态系人才循环及永续运动文化六大策略作为整体推动的架构"},{"start":2189.761,"end":2194.925,"text":"在擴大運動人口帶動內需市場方面114年國人運動參與率達83.3%規律人口的運動比率達35.6%而運動愛台灣2.0參與人次也超過了250萬人"},{"start":2209.475,"end":2227.149,"text":"此外,自今年開始,本部推動運動幣由原本的青春動資券進一步擴大受證的範圍納入做運動、看比賽及添裝備三大面向希望運動幣的政策能夠帶動養成運動習慣的行為改變進一步提升整體運動消費市場的成長"},{"start":2234.275,"end":2255.19,"text":"在產業支持與制度誘因方面本部持續加強金融與租稅工具在融資輔導部分目前已累積城堡476案協助業者改善資金取得的問題在租稅制度部分已經完成修法將企業透過專戶捐贈租稅優惠"},{"start":2257.271,"end":2277.506,"text":"由150%提高至175%在近四年的捐赠金额上面从2.7亿成长到11.3亿参与捐赠的企业家数从刚开始的60家增加到174家显示政策优因已经逐步的发挥它的效果"},{"start":2278.146,"end":2302.051,"text":"在人才培育与跨部会合作方面本部强调建立完整供应链目前除了持续推动四级竞技选手的培育之外并加强教练、裁判、防护员及后勤职业外也建构了八项运动产业职能基准逐步补足产业人才制度的基础"},{"start":2302.762,"end":2323.586,"text":"另外透過APEC的ASPN計畫我國已經累積培育了25個國家130個運動創新團隊跨部會合作方面本部已經與經濟部合作在今年開始的SIIR計畫首度的增設了運動服務的類別共核定了27案補助金額達1558萬元同時也跟文化部合作推動運動文化內容與IP的發展"},{"start":2332.088,"end":2360.486,"text":"在场馆与赛事经济方面本部持续从基础环境强化整体产业的条件从前瞻基础建设计划开始中央补助地方政府新整建运动设施总共已经达了669案完工了568案完工率达到85%同时持续改善职棒职篮等职业赛事的场馆与附属设施"},{"start":2361.266,"end":2376.767,"text":"我們希望能夠透過提升競賽的品質以及觀賽的體驗帶動更多民眾進場進一步擴大票房周邊商品與地方的消費形成賽事經濟的正向循環"},{"start":2377.768,"end":2393.334,"text":"从国际经济经验来看,运动产业的发展必须兼顾着制度、人才、资源以及市场的机制,未来本部将持续扩大全民运动的覆盖率,优化场馆与赛事环境。"},{"start":2394.622,"end":2422.947,"text":"落實投資與租稅的誘因深化企業ESG的連結並透過國家運動產業發展中心推動賽事專業化粉絲經濟品牌國際化及運動科技的應用更別忘了我們還要加強去推動運動數據主權的重要性我們要做的不只是支持運動活動的本身而是把運動轉化為促進健康"},{"start":2423.827,"end":2441.507,"text":"擴大內需,帶動就業與提升國家競爭力的重要力量以上的報告,敬請各位委員質疑好,謝謝運動部黃室的報告下一步我們副組長"},{"start":2449.432,"end":2466.834,"text":"主席貴委員先進大家好今天要列席貴委員會就我國運動產業發展之政策規劃人才培育跨部會資源整合相關租稅優惠執行成效未來產值提升目標及先進國家運動產業政策之分析比較進行口頭"},{"start":2467.675,"end":2482.171,"text":"報告以向緊究本部主管之體育教學運動人才培育及跨部會資源整合的面向提出重點說明在體育教學與運動人才基礎培育部分依據12年國教課綱健康體育領域的課綱規定高級中等以下學校透過多元體育教學"},{"start":2490.64,"end":2503.777,"text":"強化學生基本運動能力及運動素養在教學支持的部分本部透過體育課程與教學整合計畫持續協助教師精進教學專業並推動教材研發與教學模組的運用"},{"start":2509.023,"end":2518.729,"text":"令結合健康促進學校戶外教育及運動校園設施設備改善等措施協助學生培養規律運動習慣拓展基礎運動人口"},{"start":2522.523,"end":2546.1,"text":"在校園運動設施整備的部分高級中等校學校校園運動場地的開放是由各主管機關訂定本部持續優化學校的校園運動環境115年已經補助340校次修整件運動場地及充實體育運動器材設備核定補助金額約11.81億元"},{"start":2550.407,"end":2561.52,"text":"另外也配合行政院綠能政策推動學校運動太陽能光電球場計畫累計完成建置已經有544校在運動相關高級中等"},{"start":2566.425,"end":2584.294,"text":"教育人才培育的部分本部持續依據國家整體人才培育政策及產業發展方向引導大學校院調整相關的系所及招生名額並邀請相關的部會共同參與審核作業115學年度一般大學共有16校58個運動電競遊戲相關系所總共有"},{"start":2592.077,"end":2619.823,"text":"1958名招生名额另为了保障运动成绩优良学生升学权权益学生除了可以透过繁星推荐申请入学分发入学等方式升学外也可以依照中等以上学校运动成绩优良学生升学辅导办法循征审征试及单独招生等管道进入大学就读在跨部会资源整合与未来展望部分"},{"start":2620.283,"end":2640.131,"text":"本部將持續推動體育教學 設施設備 人才培育及跨部會合作後指我國運動產業永續發展的基礎 以上報告 請各位委員指教好 謝謝教育部代副署長的報告最後請財政部副會署 請林副署長報告"},{"start":2650.243,"end":2656.75,"text":"主席各位委員先進大家好那以下由財政部就我國運動產業相關租稅優惠執行成效提出報告那為了促進運動產業發展運動產業發展條例提供多項租稅優惠措施包括第24條提供體育團體相關門票收入免徵營業稅"},{"start":2668.303,"end":2687.829,"text":"第26條 提供營地事業對體育團體活動賽事或培養支援團隊或運動員相關捐贈的全額以費用列之第26條之一 提供個人透過對未指定或指定運動員之捐贈的全額或限額內列舉扣除第26條之二 提供營地事業透過專戶對職業或業餘運動業及重點運動賽事之捐贈的適用費費用加成減除"},{"start":2695.571,"end":2718.295,"text":"114年7月23日修正公布运产条例部分条文在第26条有增订盈利事业捐赠办理经中央主管机关认可促进全民运动发展之赛事支出得全数列支费用第26条之二盈利事业透过专户对职业或业余运动业或重点运动赛事主办单位之捐赠费用减除率由150%提高为175%"},{"start":2721.896,"end":2748.968,"text":"并修正捐赠职业或业余运动业等租税优惠实施年限延长至十年那经统计近三年盈利事业或个人运产条例捐赠金额逐年增加由111年度4.9亿元到113年度15.5亿元三年合计捐赠总额约36.2亿元透过提供合一的租税优惠措施引导民间资源投入运动产业"},{"start":2749.488,"end":2755.414,"text":"有助於打造運動產業更穩固且優質的發展環境 以上報告敬請指教 謝謝"},{"start":2764.406,"end":2786.519,"text":"好 另外有關本市會議各部會所提出的面報告 請委員進行參議員並刊登公報我們現在進行詢答 委員詢答許志明之前我們原例作為下宣告 每位委員發言時間本委員會委員五分鐘 必要時延長一分鐘 每位委員會委員四分鐘上午十點截止發言登記首先請登記第一位的邱毅英委員質詢"},{"start":2797.56,"end":2824.655,"text":"好 謝謝主席我是不是請一下經濟部次長請經濟部何市長這個麥克風是不是換過啊對啊 這個Chairman好次長好 次長我想這個還是要請教一下你有關注到這個國民黨的主席鄭麗文正主席去訪問中國的期間"},{"start":2826.038,"end":2846.666,"text":"的這些相關報導嗎是嗎來讓您review一下這個習政會的舉辦的這個當中4月7號到4月12號4月12號左右這個中國片面就宣布了他們有幾個會台的十大政策"},{"start":2847.446,"end":2863.517,"text":"但是你看一下,鄭麗文主席去到中國訪問的期間,尤其是4月10號當天,是她跟習近平主席會晤的日子,那一天的共機擾台的次數、架次特別多,相對幾天來講特別多。"},{"start":2864.358,"end":2888.86,"text":"我不知道這個是中國的習性還是說中國對待訪問他們的客人的禮貌性就是我去訪問你當天呢這個假賜要特別多表示歡迎之意嗎我不太懂齁那在那一天呢中國又宣布要黃海實彈射擊不管他做什麼動作啦總之呢做完這些軍事擾台跟你撩亂一片尿捏"},{"start":2890.922,"end":2918.437,"text":"他就公布了一個所謂的十大對台政策次長你看了一下你覺得這十大對台政策你的看法為何我看了一下這十個對台政策看起來好像跟過往他們的所謂的十大過往的所謂的會台政策沒有什麼太大的差別不過呢這一次的幾大政策的前提都必須要是堅持九二共識反對台獨"},{"start":2919.477,"end":2934.069,"text":"就是說你在做政黨交流要堅持九二共識這個我覺得這當然是合理啦青年平台也要反對九二共識比較讓我覺得匪夷所思的是農漁貿易漁業管理食品安全"},{"start":2934.89,"end":2950.956,"text":"是不是你未來在做這些貿易交流的時候我都要先在我的農漁產品上面寫說我堅持九二共識或者是我這一隻魚是反台獨我這一個芭樂是反台獨是不是要這樣子才能來做進行做交流"},{"start":2952.356,"end":2970.464,"text":"經濟部的看法是什麼經濟部未來對於這個所謂的十大對台政策經濟部的做法又會是什麼有什麼要提點的或者是說你們覺得台灣現在到目前為止面對中國的這一些"},{"start":2972.027,"end":2986.695,"text":"謊言台灣人民其實是已經習慣了嗎來 次長根文報告那其實現在台灣的產業也已經走出自己的路了那過去這個台灣跟"},{"start":2987.735,"end":3003.567,"text":"這個中國的這個貿易的這個金額其實這幾年來是大幅下降那也就是說其實我們台灣的中小企業對這個分散市場的部分這幾年來已經大幅下降是大幅下降到多少你要把這個數字講出來嗎我現在有的數字2010年台商對中國的投資是佔比是84%到現在應該剩下不到4%"},{"start":3013.995,"end":3028.648,"text":"現在就是說其實這個投資已經大幅下降那貿易也是這個過去這個大陸是一向是我們最高最大的這個貿易的對象但是現在已經美國已經變成是我們最大的一個貿易對象"},{"start":3029.989,"end":3046.886,"text":"那另外我們在新南向的部分的這個貿易金額也是大幅的成長所以很顯然就是說他的這些匯來政策對台灣的這個中小微企業其實我是認為就是應該是不具任何吸引力啦尤其最近這個這個中美的這個貿易戰或科技戰"},{"start":3049.708,"end":3069.566,"text":"这样的一个费用供应链的这样的议题兴起那也许就是说大家在这个做市场这个拓销的部分也许就会在大陆的这个市场上面大家可能就会慢慢移转到其他民主的这个供应链的国家去做投资"},{"start":3070.967,"end":3099.547,"text":"這個次長根據亞洲開發銀行的預測2026年台灣的經濟成長率應該會到7.6%中國的經濟成長率大概只有4.6%如果中國的經濟成長率這麼低然後中國現在告訴你說我來這個開放台灣對中國的這些不管是農漁的進口啦這些投資啦交流啦等等在這個九二共識跟這個反對台獨的這個框架底下歡迎大家來做這一些交流"},{"start":3100.547,"end":3121.501,"text":"我不覺得台灣人有這麼笨中國的經濟成長率相對已經比台灣還要緩慢整個市場也在萎縮當中他們自己的內需市場也過於飽和甚至已經疲態化了那我想每一個投資人應該都會去斟酌甚至去思考是不是應該要去這裡投資但是過去"},{"start":3125.043,"end":3150.437,"text":"台灣依賴單一政治化的這個市場的習性現在已經大幅改變了我覺得像中國在前一陣子禁止中國人進入日本旅遊他覺得會對日本帶來一個非常重大的旅遊傷害結果沒有啊日本人拍拍手啊日本的旅遊業蓬勃發展啊日本的旅遊環境其實是受到蠻好的保護啊"},{"start":3151.417,"end":3174.179,"text":"所以中國的這一些政策就我現在看起來是笑話一樁啦但是呢還是有一些人緊抱著中國的大腿不放還是有一些人對中國懷抱著夢想甚至呢這個不被禮貌對待的這個在野黨的黨主席回來以後他們還要再組一個對中國的所謂的對應小組"},{"start":3176.448,"end":3200.461,"text":"在我看來這個真的是笑話一樁不過就台灣的整體的經濟發展或者是說對於警訊危機的警告提醒這件事情經濟部還是不能把它當成笑話一則來看待還是應該要嚴肅以對應該要適時的對國人對國內的企業或者是您剛剛講到的中小微企業"},{"start":3201.582,"end":3227.172,"text":"如果有危機存在的地方還是應該要適度的扮演好政府在監督管理或者是協助的角色應該對於他們提出警訊甚至來提出協助我想這一點還是我們經濟部應該要持續去做的事情好不好 謝謝謝謝邱營委員市長先回座我先來去確定意思如何"},{"start":3228.82,"end":3236.449,"text":"請問各位同仁 上次會議意思錄有錯誤沒有錯誤 我們意思錄確定接下來繼續質詢 請第二位 請鍾嘉斌委員質詢"},{"start":3252.857,"end":3262.264,"text":"主席 在讓委員監禁 列席的總組長 官員 會長 公眾夥伴 媒體 記者 女士 先生有請國發會 葉主委 經濟部 何次長 以及運動部的黃次長"},{"start":3267.025,"end":3293.937,"text":"委員長主委好 兩位次長好今天我們要來運動健康產業的提升國家競爭力跨部會要強化投資支付研究來 先請那個運動部的次長你做那個標準答案的公布人那先請到葉主委跟那個何次長請問職棒運動 電競運動跟健身運動哪一個有運動產業請教葉主委你認為只能選一個你覺得哪一個比較像沒有 三個都是沒有 只能如果要你挑一個你覺得哪一個是"},{"start":3295.766,"end":3309.071,"text":"你心目中的我心目中喔可能棒球直棒運動好來請問何市長如果你只挑一個有運動產業的你會挑哪一個也是直棒也是直棒對來運動部黃市長你認為哪一個是有運動產業"},{"start":3312.86,"end":3331.327,"text":"講不出來你心目中不能只講一個你要說三個都是如果說未來發展性我也選健康運動很好謝謝我很欣賞黃次長我告訴兩位主委跟次長職棒運動有產業嗎有啦有一點官商產業啦有職棒啦有竹廠啦這是手套球衣球鞋誰在做"},{"start":3332.347,"end":3349.668,"text":"台灣的手套廠都做在菲律賓啦你說電競運動有沒有產業有啊我們的PC我們的筆電先有這些產業才有電競對不對這是很特別的健身運動呢它有什麼它兩邊都有我們有按摩椅有跑步機外銷我們也有很多的World Gym健身中心四處開"},{"start":3350.729,"end":3375.722,"text":"是不是這樣子所以我認為黃次長的答案比較接近跟我一樣我不是說你們另外兩個錯好 所以經濟部跟國發會今天召委排了這麼重要的題目我相信召委心中也有他的答案但是對運動產業的定義為何涉及到我們的產業政策往下看來 競技觀賞型的運動產業職棒很典型有觀眾入場 有門票修路 有球場營運舉辦賽事 有周邊產業 有紀念商品 有運動產品"},{"start":3377.443,"end":3396.918,"text":"那哪一種是產業 上面是產業嗎 上面是產業啊上面有收入嘛 下面呢 下面是製造業但是呢 很多都不是台灣自己的還是運動產業不限定是觀賞型跟經濟型的 往下看所以我們來看一下 生病就醫 全民健保那我們發展的是什麼 醫療藥品 醫材主委是不是這樣子"},{"start":3398.14,"end":3416.487,"text":"如果我們生命就醫全民健保後,我們後面這三個會出來嗎?會但是如果我們要運動促進身體健康提升體質能,弱方預防醫學是不是就跑出了另外一個叫做運動健康產業我看後面黃次長點頭點得很用力請問就醫或運動哪一個是真正健康?主委如果給你選,你要選擇就醫還是選擇運動?"},{"start":3419.107,"end":3433.994,"text":"運動當然啊所以就在這裡嘛好往下看所以呢我們要提高人口品質提高人口競爭力擴大發展運動健康產業提升我們的健康餘命就可以提高我們人口的健康品質對不對那如果我們的健康餘命提升我們全民的全生涯的生產力會不會提高"},{"start":3435.343,"end":3457.857,"text":"所以這是增加我們全國人口的生產競爭力所以如果運動產業可以變成運動健康產業提高健康餘命請問國安法有沒有做過統計可以提升多少競爭力減少多少醫療資源的損耗有沒有做過研究這個部分還沒有但是還沒有趕快做但是我們國發基金其實是有在想說預防醫學這一塊其實是可以推廣的"},{"start":3458.137,"end":3477.993,"text":"但是今天呢我們不談醫學我們談運動這是我們召委排這個題目的意思所以我想把運動跟健康連在一起事實上是可以對國會來講是對國家的目標之一好不好好接下來往下看來我們請教一下何次長好我們運動健康產業製造跟服務兼顧你來看一下讓你來猜猜看何次長"},{"start":3478.573,"end":3492.824,"text":"如果我們擴大發展運動健康產業製造業是不是有一些穿戴裝置會有一些體能的監測儀器這是經濟部熟悉的產業面嘛對不對但是在服務面上會有健康管理的需求對不對會有專業教練服務對不對請問這個部分經濟部使得上利嗎"},{"start":3494.58,"end":3513.034,"text":"這個部分其實我們現在有一些業者好像比較是跟運動部跟教育部有關嘛是但是我們也有結合這些醫療機構做一些比方說健康管理平台是所以你發現如果在服務面上好像有點脫離了經濟部擅長的製造業的範疇進入到商業服務業的領域需要運動部跟教育部共同合作包括人才的培養包括一些標準的制定對不對"},{"start":3522.941,"end":3551.488,"text":"後面廠長又點頭了因為標準的制定是他們運動部的好往下看所以我來請教一下你知不知道有個商業發展研究院對你知道他們有做過這個嗎運動健康產業的發展嗎他們去東京考察他們還提供了建言請問經濟部有沒有收到這份報告商業發展研究院他的運動健康的智慧服務研究所協助政府推動運動大健康產業有沒有我回去了解一下回去了解有啦有給經濟部只是呢很遺憾的往下看來請問一下"},{"start":3552.611,"end":3580.549,"text":"市長 你知道工研院一年的預算規模多少嗎294億我寫出來了嘛 應該跟你人人差不多嘛經濟部貢獻多少相當多嘛非常多啦沒錯 你知道商業院的預算規模多少嗎上面寫3億元零頭都不到啊可是我們看一下工業人口占全國多少 3乘5啊服務業人口呢 6乘5啊經濟部 你會不會覺得對這兩個你的智庫你是不是要稍微再多掐牆哪一個"},{"start":3581.581,"end":3606.414,"text":"家鄉哪一個是當然就是說商業院他也是他的預算也是來自於很多對所以我的意思就很清楚了所以我們今天談運動產業不要狹隘的定義在競技型觀賞型的運動要思考到對國家競爭力生產力有幫助的這個國發下去好我的結論兩位國發評估運動健康產業可以提升多少人口競爭力減少多少醫療資源可不可以評估"},{"start":3607.054,"end":3621.389,"text":"可以嗎 國發會 來大概可不可以給我一個報告 簡單的報告很快的給我 讓我知道你們有在進行研究好 我們那個會後我們大概多久 一個月 兩個月 三個月一年 兩年 三年一個月好不好可以啦 如果你三年的話就要偏年任了"},{"start":3622.25,"end":3637.539,"text":"一個月好那拜託來何次長那如果三用智庫除了供應院之外你要不要好好的運用一下商業院好可以嗎可以增加對他的投資嗎我們回去再很簡單會就好了嘛你增加一塊錢我也接受啊是我們當然就會對這些智庫單位都會做這個支持好你說會我就會好謝謝那謝謝黃次長給標準單謝謝主委"},{"start":3644.717,"end":3652.744,"text":"時間掌握得非常精確謝謝中方委員 精彩的資訊市長先回座 下一位資訊請楊瓊瑩委員謝謝主席 楊瓊瑩發言 邀請運動部跟國防部運動部黃市長 國防部業主委委員長"},{"start":3671.814,"end":3697.813,"text":"兩位早 我們看到近年社會上發生了隨機殺人的事件家庭關係疏離跟工人的一個失調惡劣 毒癮 暴力等這些事件那有些的案例雖然有相關的體系在作負責在案但是沒有辦法去發揮到疫情的一個機制以及支持家人"},{"start":3698.513,"end":3725.229,"text":"支持家庭跟個人的一個功能那所以沒有辦法隨即的及時的去遏止旱事的發生那我們看到行政院在推動了從這個社會安全網的計畫2018年到2030年現在是2026那所以總共編列的是898億元那希望要接住每一個錯落家庭跟在這個"},{"start":3726.93,"end":3751.59,"text":"體制邊緣的人需要幫助的人可以把他接住但是我們看到最近發生的這些因性侵未成的這個球員遭判刑確定的這個教練他出獄後他一樣可以到基層的體育圈去甚至出現在運動部支持的這個賽事中來當指導球員他"},{"start":3754.854,"end":3775.361,"text":"這個影響到我們的孩童的一個安全 國遠的一個安全所以在這樣的情況之下 這個問題在於化部會的資料沒有去整合法務部 刑事記錄 威武部 兒少通報 運動部 教育 教練的管理系統"},{"start":3776.201,"end":3799.592,"text":"他在這個層級當中每一個部會等於是鍛煉導致不適應的人呢 他繞過了這個監督他可以繼續去接觸這些人所以本集要提出 也就是結構性的一個漏洞那請教次長 運動部派行確定的性侵教練可以回到場邊去擔任指導"},{"start":3800.851,"end":3822.75,"text":"那這該怎麼辦呢問題不在個案喔而是在整個制度方面背景查核是不是要列入在你的項目之內來保障這些人目前我們的規劃的確是往這邊來走我們在新版的國民體育法的修法當中明確的要求那些叫做非積極性的"},{"start":3827.564,"end":3831.901,"text":"消極資格的定義我們把它定義出來也就是這一些不是的人我們可以把它公佈出來"},{"start":3834.329,"end":3854.019,"text":"每三年要盤整一室教育部那我們呢我們現在的狀況是我們的同仁會每天上去查不適任的人就把他拿掉那現在在公佈不適任的人當中目前在法院的授權上面還沒有到那個地方所以我們要什麼時候要出來被警察列為所有的補助賽事跟場館使用的強制條件你認不認同"},{"start":3861.122,"end":3880.413,"text":"這個可以在未來的那個消極條件當中我們把它明定出來我們就可以執行同意這個方向嘛所以速度要盡快那國發會到目前為止我們發現了這些斷鏈漏洞那你國分會的立場要怎麼樣去整合這相關單位法務部"},{"start":3882.273,"end":3890.59,"text":"運動部教育部這些的單位你應該要有一個整合的一個機制啊不然你各司其長鍛鍊就出現啊請說明"},{"start":3893.21,"end":3919.148,"text":"這個部分我是不是可以讓我去跟其他督導的那個政委去協調一下你本來就應當要這麼做啊對對對因為運動部不是在我督導的那一個業務裡面但我會去跟督導業務的你的社會安全網從2018年到2030年你必須要去做這個整合的工作好不好趕快去努力不要再有斷鏈運動部本期再請教"},{"start":3920.689,"end":3935.357,"text":"因為有選手在閩南東澳的時候呢他發現他必須要打這個氣喘的藥但是水警醫師不在差一點讓他喪失資格像這樣的個案你們最後的處置是說因為個案"},{"start":3936.978,"end":3951.575,"text":"個案來處理 但是本行認為是在整個制度方面這個對選手來講非常非常的重要那針對這樣的個案在整個制度你要怎麼去做調整在整個隨行醫療的部分要怎麼樣去做調整"},{"start":3952.352,"end":3973.945,"text":"目前這個案子並不是用個案來處理的確就當事醫師我們部長已經做了很清楚的裁釋可是未來在國家對醫的選擇上面我們已經慢慢的在制定一個選擇的標準沒有平常在跟運動員有互動的一些醫師沒有平常去累積跟運動員互動的這些經驗我們是不會遴選他進來我們將會去制定一個遴選的標準讓他有經過培養跟訓練什麼時候會出來"},{"start":3981.13,"end":4001.089,"text":"這應該在今年的前半年就可以出來了一定要進化讓我們的選手一定要安心前半年現在已經四月中旬什麼時候會出來在六月以前應該可以做的六月底以前出來因為我們要避免這樣子的憾事發生這個非常的重要所以市長對於我們整個國家代表隊純對醫師的遴選"},{"start":4003.872,"end":4022.807,"text":"以及他初情的管理 這很重要初情的管理 這個才是精髓 才是精神 才是要執行那麼你們在6月底以前去完成整個明確的責任機制跟即時監督的制度包括本期建議 在場的義務"},{"start":4025.149,"end":4048.3,"text":"交接的機制以及為師處分因為你要預估萬一他發生有事情那我們的人要怎麼樣有交接的這個機制才不會影響到我們的選手這三項的方向 朝這個方向你認同嗎?是的是的喔 所以我們期待技術去把它完成讓我們的選手都能夠安心的參加國際賽事"},{"start":4052.403,"end":4058.446,"text":"好 謝謝楊晨英委員次長先回座好 下一位質詢請陳婷筠委員謝謝張偉我們是請運動部次長請運動部黃市長"},{"start":4079.582,"end":4108.542,"text":"謝謝市長我想運動部大家對於整個選手的訓練其實有很大的期待那我們的部長自己也是國手所以他更了解到底我們的選手要怎麼去培育而且要怎麼一磅一磅的傳承甚至是如何從基層扎根那我們現在要請教的是"},{"start":4109.562,"end":4128.291,"text":"我們怎麼加強體育選手的分級訓練我們現在其實看到常常說台灣之光可是台灣之光他的家庭要付出多少的心血才能培育一個台灣之光"},{"start":4129.668,"end":4143.233,"text":"當我要培養一位國家代表隊的選手我的家庭裡面爸爸媽媽 阿公阿嬤他要從這個小朋友在基層的時候就不斷地培育"},{"start":4144.454,"end":4173.126,"text":"然後發現他的長才 他的能力然後除了要讓他可以到處去做一些經驗的累積參加比賽不論是國內的比賽 甚至是國外的比賽這些經費所花的是非常的多 非常的高所以很多的爸爸媽媽他會擔心尤其現在少子化"},{"start":4174.284,"end":4200.664,"text":"他會擔心 我有沒有能力去培育一個體育選手現在的體育選手不是說 喔 我搞 我也要爬還是可以跟別人比拚 我也能拿到成績不是的 我可能還要累積成績我要四處去做一些巡迴比賽 去拿到一些積分"},{"start":4201.755,"end":4213.894,"text":"他才有辦法能夠站到國際世界的舞台不再是像以前一樣所以很多的家庭就會擔心 我有沒有那個能力"},{"start":4214.898,"end":4232.147,"text":"所以雖然我們有現行的規定優秀運動選手培養的辦法第四條有第一級的國家代表隊的選手第二級國家儲備選手第三級具有潛力的選手第四級基層運動選手那請問"},{"start":4235.305,"end":4253.493,"text":"我們怎麼樣把這些選手真正的發掘出來真正的讓他有信心當我被發掘出來之後我有辦法繼續走這一條路市長謝謝委員對這個議題的關心的確委員一針見血看到我們基層的需求"},{"start":4254.113,"end":4268.381,"text":"我們部長也看到了這樣的需求因此我們在針對目前這些選手已經看到已經被支持的選手之外的中間基層那一塊我們目前在擴大可以被捐贈的資格對象也就是說"},{"start":4269.321,"end":4292.476,"text":"這一群辛辛苦苦由家長們在培養的還沒有到達我們國家培訓程度的這些選手我們希望透過企業的捐贈導入更多的資源來給他們我們對國家對這個地方的資源不會減少可是我們希望能夠引進更多的民間資源讓企業願意進來對這些基層的小朋友們因為他們真的需要被支持"},{"start":4292.896,"end":4304.735,"text":"如何引進我們在租稅的減免上面協助這些捐贈方可以得到租稅上面的減免我們會同財政部一起努力沒錯 我們現在有修法"},{"start":4305.598,"end":4333.203,"text":"在讓企業的所謂捐贈它可以抵稅的空間更大好 那我要請問那這個平台誰要來幫忙建立目前這個平台在我們運動部裡面我們已經有產生一個捐贈平台我們會把有資格的選手跟那個企業做對接在那個平台上面我們部長已經清楚地交代要讓它能夠更直觀的也就是之前的系統有點不容易看"},{"start":4333.863,"end":4352.252,"text":"我們現在規劃的方向是進去的人要捐的人知道你要往哪裡走要爭取被捐的人你知道往哪裡去填寫資料好那被捐的被捐的他的資格他的需求他的資格在哪裡我們將要把它擴大對你一定要擴大你不能永遠就是說沒有"},{"start":4353.012,"end":4375.369,"text":"要國家代表隊才可以要國家儲備選手才可以要具有潛力的才可以然後呢基層運動選手可是重點是有很多其實是必須在這個要被發掘的當中要更有力量給他願意覺得"},{"start":4376.465,"end":4402.938,"text":"他可以放心謝謝委員真的也是我們一直在努力的方向我們甚至在未來的那個企業推手獎上面他們的金他們的捐贈的費用如果往基層走我們會把它算成150%的計算方式來讓他得到更高的一個尊榮市長我覺得我們應該把這個平台公開現在那個資訊沒有沒有你是公開你沒有把它推廣對"},{"start":4405.513,"end":4427.513,"text":"這個推廣才重要 我們先訂了這個遊戲規則可是遊戲規則如果放在那裡 你沒有推廣出去企業體不知道 選手們不知道 可被栽培的選手不清楚那麼他不知道他有這樣的辦法 可以去接受所謂的被捐贈"},{"start":4428.314,"end":4454.221,"text":"的確 我們部長已經清楚交代他就是告訴我們不能這樣子只自己知道一定要讓更多人知道這個平台的存在選政方跟被捐贈方都要知道你們多久有什麼的計畫要把這樣的一個機制可以推動出來讓更多的人知道我們目前其實已經 我的理解目前已經委託廠商在重整這個平台應該很快 至於時間我可能多久時間可以做出來那個捐贈平台"},{"start":4455.185,"end":4484.114,"text":"捐贈平台就是說第一個讓企業主知道你可以透過這樣的平台你的捐贈除了可以幫助我們的運動選手還可以能夠加惠到自己的一個稅的部分底稅的部分然後第二個是被捐贈方被捐贈方到底他的廣度多廣也就是當可以給爸爸媽媽知道"},{"start":4485.253,"end":4510.362,"text":"我的小孩子不孤單不是只有我的這個家庭在support而已我是有很多企業主可以support我同事剛剛跟我說我們已經啟動這個優化的一個機制目前的規劃是在年底可以完成年底喔好不好年底喔不要再拖了我覺得運動部要給人的就是一個耳目一新而且真正我們能夠"},{"start":4511.682,"end":4533.72,"text":"深入到基層去關心到每一個急需要被發掘的選手是這也符合我們李洋部長他本身是國手他一路走來很辛苦他可以把這個辛苦談能夠加惠到下一代的選手們我覺得這才是我們的目標謝謝我們一起努力 謝謝委員好 謝謝陳靜雯委員來 次長先回座消費資金請洪義祥委員"},{"start":4549.3,"end":4575.985,"text":"謝謝主席有請運動部跟經濟部經濟部運動部黃市長經濟部何市長兩位市長好我是支持運動科技那可能各位應該在過去這個在運動科技的一個促進發展可能也知道這個來龍去脈"},{"start":4578.527,"end":4597.244,"text":"但是呢我再幫各位複習一下因為當時我也參與過在從整個2021年行政院GRB也就是我們的科技策略會議確認了跨部會的運動成科技策略所以從22年行動計畫核定之後大概我們就編了46億"},{"start":4599.79,"end":4627.082,"text":"但是目前我看起來是有點混亂也就是說到底有哪些計畫各部會的分工預算因為它已經開始執行了所以執行到哪然後到底這個效果如何那這樣的東西我實在是看不到一張完整的總表我也把各兩個部會的報告等等這整個都來看一下然後我看在當時我們還有列入這個"},{"start":4630.064,"end":4652.193,"text":"這個除了這個國科會還有這個衛福部因為當時的預算是國科會下來的對不對所以基本上來講還有衛福部嘛這個大概分配當時的預算都有所以我覺得現在下一個問題就是剛好這邊畫的還缺了一些東西就是說到底"},{"start":4653.545,"end":4661.111,"text":"誰要負責我們這樣子看起來都好像就是最不缺分工合作可是每次要究責或者是說我要會責 我要找誰運動部還是經濟部"},{"start":4666.611,"end":4681.637,"text":"誰可以回答我是不是跟委員報告因為我們有一個運動產業發展的一個綱領那這個綱領是由運動部這邊來主政所以我們各部會其實都是在這樣綱領之下我們會去所以是運動部是來運動部次長"},{"start":4686.371,"end":4707.409,"text":"所以你要去幫我做出這些東西出來你手上有這些東西嗎預算分配然後各計畫做到哪裡KPI執行進度運動科技的這個SRV計畫的主責單位為國科會預算由他們編列那從2022年到2026年這個階段今年是走到最後一年已經完成了第一個階段"},{"start":4708.63,"end":4720.062,"text":"前一陣子在體育署階段我們承接的計畫只有人才培育跟那個場域驗證所以在這個46億是國科會要負責然後之後2026年之後的計畫才會是你們負責不是還是這個經費來源來自於國科會他有不同的計畫來推動那目前有一個所以各位"},{"start":4730.792,"end":4740.103,"text":"就看得到了 這個我太了解這些產業的結構然後問國科會 國科會就會去找你們去找 各部會然後我都完全看不到一張總表"},{"start":4741.223,"end":4761.974,"text":"然後你說這不是你的問題我也可以理解好像大家就是這樣子但是既然是國科會下次我就問國科會所以這個是一個問題每一個大型的計畫從這種看不到下來都是這種問題然後我都問不到到底我這整個計畫預算投入下去到底成效是什麼綜合的成果是什麼"},{"start":4762.714,"end":4790.761,"text":"所以呢我就查不到這40億到底是怎麼花然後呢到底你是集中投資還是雨露均沾分散撒錢根據我過去幫這些各位做的經驗都是在分散撒錢然後合起來不知道是什麼東西ABCD SILO一堆然後我們看不到overall的整體的成效我不希望我關懷的運動科技也會走到這一步因為趁現在還早"},{"start":4792.864,"end":4812.929,"text":"可以嗎好這個拜託兩位部要合作一下再來在運動部底下的話有國家運動科學中心這個當然就是用科學的方式訓練選手不管是在醫療照護數據的收集等等但是呢在審計部這裡頭說你們蓋的這個大樓19.6億嘗試算一點人才這些到底現在有沒有到位這審計部的審計問題來請教次長"},{"start":4822.762,"end":4831.847,"text":"目前他們的人力編制上面應該是達到80%左右的一個人力配置他們目前的最主要的任務還是針對我們培訓隊在運動科學檢測上面提供了詳細的偵測他們內部也做了一個數據的個人的資料庫跟一個數據平台來統整"},{"start":4842.393,"end":4864.091,"text":"平時測到的這些數據作為個人資料的一個最終我為什麼會這樣子問因為在你的運動部的轄下底下除了運科中心之外你們還有一個籌設的叫運動產業發展中心對不對還有一個運動訓練中心這大家比較國訓中心這大家比較清楚那運動產業的發展很多就會跟你剛剛講這些資料"},{"start":4865.832,"end":4882.083,"text":"科學東西有關所以我希望這兩個中心要好好合作也就是說在運科中心裡頭所做的這些的選手們的醫療的檢測數據的收集那麼到了這個地方也就是我常講的就是"},{"start":4883.188,"end":4890.657,"text":"我們資料治理是運動科技的一個核心是那我可能也希望這個我們的這個聖誕節我們的這個運動的這個發展中心能夠好好擔負起這個任務因為"},{"start":4898.887,"end":4921.018,"text":"運動科技最終你還是要跟經濟部合作整個在這裡頭我們希望做的是我們運動產業的科技的大腦然後你可以負責不管是民間的技術帶到運科還是我們運科裡頭針對我們這些特殊項目的這些選手的訓練的數據是可以把它open出這些data然後承接到我們的這些AI的一個應用"},{"start":4921.818,"end":4946.428,"text":"那這樣子帶到經濟部裡頭去不管你是在我們的這也是要問經濟部的就是說在我們的自行車ICT硬體到底哪一些是我們可以把它應用起來所以我今天是帶著期許那我也告訴各位過去的計畫就是最前面的overall還是要有人去管控那不管是經濟部或者是運動部不要仰賴國歌 國歌只會給你們錢"},{"start":4947.93,"end":4973.647,"text":"跟委員報告剛剛所提到那個運動科技的那件事情從去年開始國科已經指派了運科中心擔任那個運動科技的PM已經逐步開始在做很多所以如果運科還是在你底下嘛所以還是應該運動部來做Solid會診這樣子啦好不好那我下次再問你們艾美也提交一個這樣的報告讓我知道現在整個執行的狀況跟進度甚至包含未來的規劃好不好好 謝謝"},{"start":4975.868,"end":5002.44,"text":"好 謝謝洪運祥委員 市長先回座好 下一位資源請鄭天才委員好 主席有請"},{"start":5003.869,"end":5010.532,"text":"運動部黃次長也請運動產業中心的鄭董事長國家運動產業發展中心鄭董事長今天運動部的報告裡面特別提到"},{"start":5033.7,"end":5038.902,"text":"114年預估整體產業產值運動產業產值可達到新台幣6027.4億元這樣的數字我們希望能夠持續的來發展能夠增加因為這個運動國際運動產業"},{"start":5061.093,"end":5072.402,"text":"這個名稱國家運動產業發展中心也成立了所以這個部分應該有更多的能力專業來去推動這個請繼續努力運動產業發展條例第13條特別在去年7月23號公布"},{"start":5088.542,"end":5111.59,"text":"修正公布特別增加了國家發展基金應提撥一定比例投資運動產業所以我們除了相關的公務預算之外以及相關的這些基金運動發展基金這還有這樣的一個國家發展基金可以運用"},{"start":5112.686,"end":5128.736,"text":"所以這個部分是讓我們的運動產業能夠有更好的發展當然這個發展也會影響到我們整個相關的其他的企業都會連帶的"},{"start":5132.014,"end":5158.461,"text":"所以這樣的一個 所以必須要去提報相關的這些相關的這些給國家發展委員會來去審議 審查好 剛提到了國家運動產業發展中心設置條例第三條你們的業務範圍非常廣泛當然很重要的就是"},{"start":5159.784,"end":5184.496,"text":"成立了這個行政法人當然就會有相關的人力當然這些人力的禁用禁用很重要這禁用很重要請問一下董事長你什麼時候就任的11月21號去年董事會正式成立因為你過去在工研院所以過去有在工研院的這個"},{"start":5186.79,"end":5212.117,"text":"經歷所以這個部分在所以基本上這個運動部請你當這個董事長確實有他的一個需要所以這個部分去因為新的機構新的行政法人怎麼樣去這個跟各相關的產業尤其是機構"},{"start":5214.458,"end":5232.713,"text":"共同的去推动这非常非常重要因为这里面也蛮广泛的好这个现在那个次长也一起来这个原住民的人口在台湾只有占2.5%"},{"start":5234.878,"end":5243.846,"text":"但是我們以2024年代表臺灣出賽奧運的選手,原住民選手,就佔了21%然後在這個奧運共獲得七面獎牌,二金五銅"},{"start":5254.733,"end":5279.416,"text":"是相當的比例都很高那原住民青年奪得三面銅牌佔總獎牌數的比例約為42%所以比例也很高我們的人口數只有2.5%所以相關的這些運動部的組織法裡面除了禁用公務人員之外還可以禁用"},{"start":5280.956,"end":5303.497,"text":"聘用人員 約聘人員 約僱人員所以這樣的一個情形之下謝謝運動部經過我的質詢協調之後你們在去年就有提報原住民行政特考因為我在審查"},{"start":5305.736,"end":5320.616,"text":"運動部組織法的時候特別提出附帶結議所以你們也去執行了去年有提報嚴渡民行政特考今年有再提報嗎"},{"start":5323.231,"end":5336.567,"text":"對 持續在做所以這個部分就是讓我們的運動人員能夠知道有這個管道除了當教練之外繼續當運動員之外"},{"start":5341.13,"end":5359.881,"text":"還有這樣的一個管道所以要這個多多讓我們的運動人才能夠了解所以這樣的一個情形之下這個除了原住民行政特考我剛剛講的在這個包括你的行政法人有好幾個行政法人包括這個運動產業國家運動產業發展中心"},{"start":5364.283,"end":5387.011,"text":"也都可以運用這個約聘的約聘顧的人員在這種情形之下這個讓我們的原住民連那個投入到運動部以及還有你們的還有署還有署還有機構行政法人當然你們過去都是在那個運動中心"},{"start":5389.113,"end":5411.704,"text":"左營那邊 國訓中心國訓中心 過去大概都在那邊了現在把它擴大所以在這邊特別請這個次長尤其新的董事長 新上任的能夠多多協助我們這個原住民的相關的人才的經用 以上 謝謝謝謝委員謝謝政經事務委員 次長請回座來 請內容委員質詢"},{"start":5421.411,"end":5429.75,"text":"好 謝謝召委 請經濟部何次長跟中油的林副總中油的副總還有台電的蔡副總"},{"start":5433.093,"end":5455.879,"text":"市長 先請教一下現在美國封鎖了荷姆茲海峽這個部分對於我們遊園的部分會產生什麼樣的影響不會有任何影響因為我們中遊在遊園的調度上面每天都很積極在所以已經有提早做準備了所以到六月份都沒有問題那七月份呢"},{"start":5456.559,"end":5478.482,"text":"也都在調度當中所以不會受到這個封鎖的影響那另外未來油價會不會持續的上漲當然油價目前整個有稍微緩和下來那國內的油價當然我們還是會有一些機制在出如果這個封鎖持續在進行的話油價還不可能受到影響"},{"start":5479.442,"end":5504.681,"text":"當然我們也很難預測啦就是說如果這個沒有辦法說明好了好不好 中油還是要說明嗎報告委員 國際油價的一個發展其實我們要看目前的一個戰爭的一個發展那以中油的角色來看我們一定是配合政府穩定物價政策委員也了解其實這兩週的油價我們都是不調漲的"},{"start":5505.942,"end":5528.574,"text":"那我們會以穩定物價的政策來follow這整個未來的一個油價的一個計算我回來問次長好了啦因為這個政策上面的那同樣的我想這個部分還是會穩定住啦即使油價假如有受到影響的話政府還是會穩定住整個油價那再來我想請教一下那對於各個產業上的影響呢如果這樣的封鎖持續 暫時持續的話"},{"start":5530.555,"end":5544.464,"text":"是目前其實目前整個原油的原油的這個運輸的部分吼那這個調度的部分都沒有問題啦所以只要這個油源的這個來源是沒有問題的話他整個"},{"start":5545.094,"end":5564.813,"text":"石化產業鏈其實我們應該都還可以足量來供應各個產業的一個發展國際的媒體點名是巴基斯坦、日本、中國跟台灣會是受到一些相關的一些影響的所以我也希望經濟部密切的注意啦是這些的整個後續的封鎖上面的經濟部有要回應嗎"},{"start":5566.542,"end":5588.371,"text":"當然我們現在就是密切在觀察就整個這個戰事的一個發展那中油跟這個台塑的部分其實是兩大最主要的這個原油的這個進口的一個公司那我們也都很積極希望他們這個在調度這個原油的這個部分能夠做超前部署的"},{"start":5589.591,"end":5603.994,"text":"正式順其萬變因為也沒有人掌握狀況不過我們就是要做的是超前部署不要讓我們的油源讓我們的產業受到重大的影響這請經部持續關注再要請教一下運動部我們黃次長次長我順著請教其實到現在115年的總預算沒有審的話那對於運動部的整體上今年的預算使用會產生影響"},{"start":5619.111,"end":5624.522,"text":"目前我們只能執行去年的決算數所以的確有些 去年的決算數可以動用的是多少"},{"start":5626.391,"end":5653.965,"text":"這個實際的數字因為總共加起來我印象中好像在100多億包含本部的基本100多億但是我看你們今年度的預算是248億所以有影響到了將近一半的數字所以有一半的數字是無法動之的包括延續性的計畫甚至到地方場館的建設包括新興的計畫等等都影響到了那如果持續的這樣下去的話那運動部接下來怎麼辦"},{"start":5655.285,"end":5655.689,"text":"我們只能"},{"start":5657.101,"end":5685.604,"text":"請拜託委員找一點省預算也只能拜託那個啦齁那我接下來請教啦那接下來這些概算呢概算的部分今年怎麼編4月份已經開始準備要編概算了嗎是的 目前這個要編你們現在的編法一樣是從248億這樣再往上加上去來編嗎還是是的 基本上是以現有的基礎再有一些新興的計畫那如果有比較巨額的東西我們必須要去具體寫一個計畫到行政院去爭取所以你們目標會朝向因為我像李洋部長"},{"start":5686.144,"end":5706.889,"text":"巴西運動部也剛成立然後這個都是重要的國家重要的一個部會那應該在新的計畫上面給予更多支持新部會如果沒有增加一些預算的話其實會很辛苦的那所以今年的預算規模會抓到多少就明年度的預算規模目前還沒有統合起來啦因為的確我們都拜訪運動部的目標呢預定抓到多少"},{"start":5707.947,"end":5728.627,"text":"我們是希望能夠就本部的部分因為今年本部的預算是214億然後我們是希望能夠增加到大概200希望能夠到240如果有機會的話210增加到240對那我看你們這邊如果要加其他的其實本來已經到248了因為是我們現在的預算公務預算跟基金預算是放在一起來"},{"start":5730.171,"end":5756.551,"text":"所以我也希望這個持續的因為新的部會既然我們要發展運動的話也應該要給予更多的經費的支持不是用原來的體育署的思考而已而是要運動部的思考那預算一定要持續來增加好那再來我順著請教啦其實有很多重大的交通建設其實包括高雄很多重大的場館不管是私運主場館 鳳山的運動園區包括男子園區甚至於各個區的"},{"start":5758.273,"end":5779.853,"text":"運動中心都很需要然後那這個部分未來運動部一樣會持續來支持嗎各地方政府的這些各地方政府會把他們的需求給提上來我們會經過一個固定的審查的方式根據各地方的需求跟經費的額度來做各個縣市都在持續的增加運動這一塊啦我們希望能夠全民運動當然全民運動的話就涉及到各個區都應該有"},{"start":5780.914,"end":5796.649,"text":"好的一些運動場館跟設施我希望這一塊運動部能夠支持然後一區一中心這樣的方式但有的是大的有的是比較小的但是讓人民能夠就近去做運動我覺得這個對於我們身體的健康對於幸福感甚至於對醫療支出都會是有幫助的"},{"start":5797.27,"end":5820.065,"text":"我們的方向是希望多往基層我們不見得是需要到每個縣市都蓋那種大型的國際廠商運動部的目的應該是全民運動是一個關鍵讓大家一起來運動享受運動的好處這也是符合總統的概念那包括像自由車廠這個新建計畫我也希望運動部未來能夠支持好嗎我們來演繹好 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝次長 謝謝賴委員接下來有請邱昭偉質詢"},{"start":5833.5,"end":5862.345,"text":"謝謝主席 先請進入何次長有請何次長三位好先花點時間討論CPTPP這個我推動了八年2021我召開記者會希望政府立即提出入會申請結果第二天老共跑去申請那我們還晚他們一個禮拜所以CPTPP對傳統製造業非常重要"},{"start":5863.874,"end":5888.302,"text":"所以傳統之間都集中在中南部老共為什麼申請叫CPTPP?他已經有ACCEPT,對不對?ACCEPT是完全的,他有主導他沒有辦法達成奧克蘭三原則的這個高標準的貿易的這個規範最起碼10年之內也沒辦法達成他提出申請叫CPTPP,他完全是政治目的政治目的就是什麼?"},{"start":5889.301,"end":5905.78,"text":"要阻撓台湾的误会台湾已经完全符合奥克兰三页者专利法修正这个相关的法律修论都已经完全符合奥克兰三页者国际体系的高标准好现在问题来了要12个会员国要有"},{"start":5906.681,"end":5930.218,"text":"共識 對不對所以我很積極去揮動美國國家我都希望說能夠掌握他們的動態希望能夠支持台灣成立工作小組但是卻有國內的這個政黨主席說台灣交CPBP可以放在兩岸共同探索架構去討論你們知道他是要為了阻攔我們還要把他硬再綁在一起"},{"start":5936.648,"end":5965.652,"text":"經濟部你要有所回應來 何市長是當然我們現在就是透過我們的外館那也不是 你要有正式的回應那個加入申請那個是我們必須要努力的可操之在己的但是如果國內一個這個在野黨最大在野黨的主席提出這個說法跟訴求那個我們要以正視聽經濟部要有主張跟看法你要說這個做法是不對的"},{"start":5967.116,"end":5986.004,"text":"是不符合大家的期待的是反而會讓我們台灣陸會產生更大的阻撓那個經濟部你又有立場你又有說法你要澄清好不好我希望說你回去跟部長講一下要有一個正式的回應好現在請體育部來請黃市長市長這個喂你好"},{"start":5997.048,"end":6023.359,"text":"我覺得要有一個專法運動發展專法用一個專法下面在擬定相關的策略分工的體系所以包括日本它有運動基本法然後由運動廳統合各部會的資源韓國政府也是一樣把它變成一個國家的重大的戰略產業舉一個例子來看"},{"start":6026.287,"end":6045.647,"text":"30年前台灣的男主跟日本男主跟南韓男主實力相當30年之後台灣是150名南韓跟韓國跟日本都是世界前20強為什麼如此大的差距就是它指引運動的產業化"},{"start":6047.799,"end":6061.332,"text":"全民支持 路上看足足的職業足球超過職棒 全場熱烈所以世界杯足球人士他的關賽人口是遠超於奧運"},{"start":6063.979,"end":6083.405,"text":"所以一個運動產業能夠發展會帶動那個運動單向的這個國家的實力這個你應該同意吧的確是的職業運動會帶動一個國家的運動所以我們職棒有職棒的產業慢慢茁壯成型入場人數我想全年齡層"},{"start":6084.765,"end":6112.022,"text":"不分男女老幼 上班族也好 學生也好變成一個全民一個休閒活動之一剛剛我們這個宗嘉斌委員也有提到整個運動產業包括製造部分 包括品牌行銷等等要跨很多部會所以你要有一個運動的一個專法運動產業發展或是運動健康產業發展專法用這個專法來提出相關的策略您的意見呢"},{"start":6112.702,"end":6139.273,"text":"跟委員報告您的看法非常的獨到以現階段來說因為我們剛剛成立我們也看到了這樣的需求可是要短時間之內提出一個專法出來的確有它的困難你說短時間是多久我們目前正在修法的方向其實是融合了運動基本法跟作用法兩個合在一起就對我們現階段的國民體育法來做修法所以它兼顧了基本法的概念你第一個專法當然是最好"},{"start":6140.173,"end":6152.181,"text":"如果没办法制定一个专法你现在在基本法之后我们把这个产业再把它加强是的我们目前就朝着基本法跟作用法合并的方式"},{"start":6169.733,"end":6188.348,"text":"好 你說運動綱領是不是不是 是我們的國民體育法修法把它修成兼顧性專法跟作用法我們這個運動發展專法或者運動健康體育發展專法我們往那個方向來演繹看看三年之內要把它出來那我也要努力拚連任加油時間還沒到"},{"start":6193.53,"end":6218.003,"text":"另外這個運動產業發展政策綱領你們有這個政策綱領是但是一直還沒有更新目前已經在抱歉委員對不起4月13號已經報到行政院了從去年我們接手以後我們努力的針對新的發展我們重新去擬定的運動產業的發展綱領4月13號已經報到行政院去了行政院會做跨部會的審查"},{"start":6218.703,"end":6235.817,"text":"另外這個大型的比賽的室內場館除了大巨蛋之外新北市、台北市、台中市都有這個規劃的想法我覺得南部更需要南部現在沒有大型比賽場館因為南部天氣比較熱有時候下雨的雨季"},{"start":6236.778,"end":6259.39,"text":"所以很多賽事受到天氣熱或下雨影響會影響入場的舒適度所以南部應該要設立一個大型的比賽場館結合AI 結合半導體 結合科技最適合的地方在哪裏你知道這個S狼袋"},{"start":6260.37,"end":6278.091,"text":"就是在這個岡山跟橋頭那過去的傳統產業聚落有螺絲扣線也有半導體的整個製造中心也有三級棒球的這個訓練集體也有直棒球隊的一個訓練集體然後又有捷運那現在的地都是台南地"},{"start":6279.321,"end":6295.182,"text":"所以已經有既有的基礎那客源也可以接近屏東還有高雄還有台南那剛好在這個交界所以交通方便然後未來會形成一個北高雄的這個高雄市的這個科技新都心"},{"start":6296.454,"end":6324.043,"text":"所以有很多的這個專業人士會進駐所以我覺得要結合AI 結合相關的高科技要設立一個製彈 我說SmartDome不是一個巨彈 SmartDome所以我去考察了很多 幾乎韓國跟日本的這個世界大選的這個所謂的巨彈 我都去看過我們不用那麼大 也許大概兩萬到兩萬五左右的這個場館就可以了"},{"start":6325.051,"end":6342.601,"text":"而且我覺得以後的圍管會更容易我覺得運動部有這個責任去做一個整合不要每個縣市都去射彈你要因地制宜你要看看它的條件是不是適合如果你變成一個空彈你射一個彈變成空彈"},{"start":6344.453,"end":6370.401,"text":"這個非常自由的浪費所以我這部分我希望說運動部能夠做一個課題做一個去思考去協助去協調各個縣市政府怎麼樣設立一個非常好的大家都會願意進場的一個智慧型的這個室內比賽場館所以我這個部分建議運動部能夠去當一個課題去研究這是一個重要的議題我們會來研議好 謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":6373.032,"end":6378.957,"text":"好 謝謝昭偉 謝謝兩位次長好 接下來有請曾政前委員"},{"start":6393.755,"end":6407.309,"text":"OK 謝謝主席我想請一下我們國發會主委葉俊賢然後運動部政次黃啟黃還有我們國家運動產業發展中心董事長鄭仁傑謝謝好請主委次長跟主任請"},{"start":6410.1,"end":6431.417,"text":"委員長主席今天安排了一個有關於運動產業的一個相關的一個詢問尤其是在經濟委員會而不是在教文委員會做這部分所以我就特別關心一下我們整個國發基金因為在去年的時候我們五月修法運動產業法案條例之後呢確實讓就是"},{"start":6434.119,"end":6447.556,"text":"就是政府的資源其實能夠投入運動產業當中那以前的時候整個運動產業當中的一個融資環境一般都是政府的一個補助那麼因為去年的修法之後讓我們整個運動產業融資環境從運動的"},{"start":6450.9,"end":6473.076,"text":"政府的補助會變成加上投資的部分進來那昨天的時候其實我看到就是我們主委也特別講針對今天的那個質詢的部分所特別講到說我們那個國發會這邊有三支箭在支持運動產業那我想特別關注我們這一個"},{"start":6475.592,"end":6489.41,"text":"國發基金要投入運動產業目前是投入了匡列一個百億的一個計畫嘛 對不對那我想請教一下這個匡列這百億計畫是目前進度到哪裡卡在什麼地方"},{"start":6490.664,"end":6512.875,"text":"這個百億的計畫的話目前運動部正在研擬那一個投資辦法啦就是說那運動部要研擬一個運動部運用國家發展基金提撥投資管理辦法那他必須要有這樣的一個辦法之後的話他才能OK那我想請教那個次長這個去年就已經修過這個法那運動部"},{"start":6515.656,"end":6528.591,"text":"這邊對於這個運用國發基金的投資管理辦法什麼時候能夠出來因為坦白說國發基金之前至少有六項專項投資都是百匡列百億的那所以說其實對於"},{"start":6530.673,"end":6548.872,"text":"對於整個運動部這邊這個新的產業來講的時候它不是新的那所以說我們不管是對中小企業的一個部分對於文創的部分對於策略性服務業 策略性製造業還有AI新創的部分還有一個綠色成長進營產業實施方案這些部分其實"},{"start":6551.298,"end":6572.088,"text":"國防會這邊都已經有很多不同的一些辦法跟方案那我們運動部這邊為什麼拖那麼久大概什麼時候可以把它送出來我們的辦法應該在四月份可以走完我們部裡面的程序然後報到行政院去今年四月份可以報到行政院去幾月底可以完成我們部內的一個程序幾月可以完成"},{"start":6572.949,"end":6586.967,"text":"我們在七月七月可以完成對不對所以說七月之後的時候就是台灣在投資運動產業的部分國發基金就可能會真正產生實際的一個效果對不對"},{"start":6591.892,"end":6616.96,"text":"是這樣子嘛原來我想請教一下想請教一下我們那個國家運動產業發展中心的董事長這董事長就說因為你是到時候的執行單位那因為辦法現在還沒有出來我在想說您自己對於未來就是我們的運動產業發展中心在投資運動產業當中的時候你有沒有一些想像"},{"start":6618.578,"end":6645.28,"text":"好 謝謝委員的資訊針對運動產業發展中心我們大概幾個面向第一個是從關賽的部分從經濟運動怎麼職業化到國際接軌的部分這個是一個發展的方向很重要因為有運動明星可以帶動關賽那這是一個投資的一個重點包含我們很多的職業的球隊或甚至我們的一些國家的球隊怎麼讓他有企業化的精神"},{"start":6645.98,"end":6661.186,"text":"所以我們到時候其實我們投資運動產業國發經濟是可以投資到職業球隊裡面去我可以這麼理解你的意思嗎這投資的一個方向但是它必須是一個准公司的形式理解OK針對這個部分我在想說"},{"start":6662.186,"end":6673.019,"text":"本席他們關心台灣運動產業的一個發展所以對於這個部分雖然辦法還沒有出來可是我們也特別關心就是我們這個中心對於未來整個台灣運動產業能夠有哪些實體的一個"},{"start":6676.903,"end":6698.456,"text":"提升跟注意那之後的時候我們本協會繼續關注這個問題那我接下來想要特別注意的是運動部這邊因為台灣的運動協會其實長期都有一些選訓不公財務不透明人事長期壟斷還有忽視選手權益的一個問題產生那我們去年的一個"},{"start":6699.236,"end":6723.728,"text":"我們前年國民體育法修正完之後2024年修正完之後的時候基本上讓行政的權利是能夠更介入我們的一個單向運動的協會所以我這邊想要特別請教一下因為李洋部長他上來之後因為他本身運動員出身他也特別強調要改善運動協會的一個管理的一個問題所以我想請教一下因為那個"},{"start":6724.788,"end":6749.29,"text":"之前從2024年就是協會的一個單仗學的爭議事項不斷的產生最近的一項部分的時候是今年中華女足18名球隊發起聯署要求更換更換太極總教練這個事情那這個部分我們目前怎麼樣子去處理然後另外一個部分就是女足工會他們也特別表示就是"},{"start":6750.271,"end":6768.625,"text":"對於整個協會的財務監管集合還是有很多的問題那麼希望運動部這邊對於從前年開始的亞洲盃還有去年10月到現在逐些積欠的球員、職員的交通費薪資、帶電款都還沒有還那請問這個部分"},{"start":6772.207,"end":6788.161,"text":"運動部這邊怎麼去處理怎麼樣子對於單項運動協會可以給他們更好的一個管理對於整個球員能夠有更多的一個保障可不可以請次長回答一下謝謝委員對協會治理這件重大議題的關心的確這個問題已經很久了"},{"start":6790.743,"end":6806.594,"text":"那目前我們對於協會特別是在財務管理上面我們已經規劃了會有密度相當高的兩年至少是兩年一次以往是四年一次的財務的集合我們希望透過專業人士的介入讓他們的財務能夠更加的透明"},{"start":6807.074,"end":6826.719,"text":"我們也規劃讓他們能夠每年度的把他們的財務對外的公佈體育部對單項協會管理這邊的時候之後再給本席一個很詳細的狀態那我們本席如果說對於單項協會部分我也會跟運動部這邊來做一個特別的一個要求那我最後第一個問題就是對於體育班的部分體育班的部分怎麼樣讓他們的選手"},{"start":6829.4,"end":6857.268,"text":"他們不只是選手 同時也是一個適當的一個學生讓他們在人生的規劃跟整個職涯規劃當中的時候不會因為運動而造成了一些就是銜接不上的地方我希望這個部分 希望體育部跟教育部這邊能夠去好好討論那我們早一聲到本席辦公室這邊來做個說明 好不好好 謝謝委員謝謝 謝謝曾先生前委員好 請大家回座"},{"start":6859.429,"end":6879.541,"text":"下一位質詢請謝一鳳委員謝一鳳委員質詢完之後我們休息六分鐘好 謝謝主席我想要請經濟部次長跟我們運動部次長運動部黃次長"},{"start":6890.837,"end":6911.332,"text":"何市長你提到說就是依照運動產業發展條例那你要配合運動部的運動產業綱領那在這個前提下我想要請問經濟部主管的運動製造業跟運動部所主管的"},{"start":6913.754,"end":6937.903,"text":"運動產業促進這兩個是怎麼樣的組成關係因為你們倆今天都在我們是不是就做一個釐清就是說是怎麼樣子的一個組成關係那在未來再補助的資源怎麼樣避免跌床駕屋以及怎麼樣子協助我國的運動產業以及運動科技的對全世界的這樣子一個推廣"},{"start":6939.957,"end":6967.77,"text":"我們和市長先說好了我們這邊所輔導的運動產業包括運動用品的產業還有自行車產業那光運動用品這個產業的範圍就很廣包括各項球類包括羽毛球拍高爾夫球具或是戶外或是室內健身器材等等這些都是我們的所謂定義"},{"start":6969.097,"end":6987.017,"text":"運動用地的這個範圍那自行車產業的部分就更聚焦是在一些這個自行車的這個整車零配件等等這些都是我們福島的這個對象所以也就是說我們現在許多的這些福島的資源"},{"start":6988.058,"end":7008.167,"text":"不管是研發的補助或是說我們的一些租稅抵減的一些獎勵的對象其實這些產業的行業所屬的行業其實都是占了一大部分那外貿呢外貿當然就是協助他們去做一些像國內運動產業的外貿推廣還有一些運動用品展等等這些我們在國內國外都是會協助這些產業去做推廣"},{"start":7018.394,"end":7019.657,"text":"我們就叫一下黃市長好不好"},{"start":7021.414,"end":7047.715,"text":"市長那請教一下那運動你所謂的運動產業的促進是只有就運動業還是運動相關的產業你們也會共同協助目前就運動產業的定義當中我們目前是12家一項也就是除了製造業之外有非常多類型的服務也就是為什麼我們今年在跟經濟部合作在推動小規模的新創公司我們特別針對運動服務類型"},{"start":7049.976,"end":7067.102,"text":"給予特定的補助因為服務業是廣泛的我們需要有更創新的服務的概念來推動運動的產業我想就教一下就是現在世界棒球十二強以及相關的職棒的這樣子大家都非常愛看所以"},{"start":7068.422,"end":7083.764,"text":"大家都開始了解了所謂的這樣子的鷹眼系統跟電子好球帶系統那我們經濟部他們也有研發了相關的這個鷹眼系統那已經導入了天母的球場"},{"start":7084.605,"end":7110.451,"text":"那未來有沒有機會因為這種東西要藉由過去運動部你們對於世界上面的這樣子共同的一個脈絡聯繫等等的才有可能把我們所謂的棒球鷹眼系統推廣出去嘛那這個部分你們怎麼樣合作啊是不是我們想要知道說除了"},{"start":7111.452,"end":7118.473,"text":"我們可以把它導入天母球場以外是不是有辦法推廣到全世界其他的球場去嗎"},{"start":7119.4,"end":7146.961,"text":"目前跟委員報告目前我們在跟經濟部的合作其實是我們技術師那個地方在合作技術端他們開發應用認證端是我們這邊在執行我們希望能夠開發我們自己台灣版的鷹眼系統部門委員跟委員報告就在上個禮拜菲律賓的體委會的主委來到我們台灣他們正要去蓋他們的棒球場我就提出來我們可以提供我們台灣版的鷹眼的服務到他們的地方去"},{"start":7147.862,"end":7162.631,"text":"他們目前要先蓋場館所以這一塊的東西要到後半段所以你們要推到菲律賓是不是把鷹眼系統推到菲律賓嗎我們要先把我們內部的東西先做好目前我們的鷹眼的系統的計算還會有一些類格的方式我們目前正在開發25G的一個鏡頭的系統才有辦法類比"},{"start":7166.733,"end":7184.539,"text":"美國的鷹眼系統因為美國的鷹眼系統太貴了而且他不賣他只租所以對我們來講我們應該開發我們自己的系統更何況我們需要把我們的資料留在台灣因為如果用他們系統雲端資料到他們那邊去就沒有辦法分析沒錯可以分析但是他們擁有我們的資料我們希望維護我們的數據主權"},{"start":7186.54,"end":7202.741,"text":"所以就是我們希望用我們的系統那我們也希望說能夠推廣給就是說我們現在有菲律賓這樣子的一個有一個目標嘛國科會的主導之下在他的科會辦當中他已經要求我們跟經濟部一起合作來開發台灣的鷹眼系統"},{"start":7204.924,"end":7216.958,"text":"好 謝謝兩位我想要就教一下我們再請國發會業主委來好了因為次長也在這裡運動部的次長在這裡我們想請教一下國發會現在在研議"},{"start":7221.383,"end":7242.121,"text":"你要鬆綁運動就業金卡的資格那我想要請問你具體放寬的目標是什麼那是針對教練而已還是防護員還是其他像剛才次長所提到的具有數據分析能力的運動科學人才呢"},{"start":7242.582,"end":7253.123,"text":"基本上我們會建議那個運動部就是從運動員教練裁判甚至運動產業人才都進行鬆綁全部都進去那次長在這裡次長你覺得呢"},{"start":7255.475,"end":7283.565,"text":"主委現在說了他希望放寬的是不管是運動員教練還有裁判還有這個就是具有分析能力的運動科學人才有沒有辦法我們當然會歡迎只要任何專業人才會不會協助啊一定會協助因為任何專業人才可以進到台灣來協助我們共同發展運動產業我們都會支持你們也是希望說朝這個方向是不是這個方向是共同的嗎還是只有國發會主委"},{"start":7284.645,"end":7304.887,"text":"不會啊 只要是專業人才我們都歡迎你們都會支持嘛 是不是好 那我想要請問喔那如果我們引入了這樣子的一個人才同時喔來到台灣那會不會對於本土選手還有本土國內人才有排擠的"},{"start":7306.351,"end":7327.929,"text":"跟委員報告這個部分是不會有排擠的因為我們那個就業金卡基本上適用外籍人士所以基本上對於國內的那些是不會有任何排擠的不會有排擠喔最後我還有一個問題就叫給我一點時間我就叫一下我們主委跟市長你們兩個都在這裡喔川普他上節目的時候說"},{"start":7329.17,"end":7352.009,"text":"美伊戰爭快要結束了中東風土快要結束了16日就要和談了我想就教兩位可能性高不高對台灣的石油天然氣以及煤礦的影響會不會讓我們現在飽受中油台電要吸收的這個成本會不會降低"},{"start":7353.204,"end":7373.427,"text":"跟委員報告就好像我兩三個禮拜前在這邊做的那個業務報告一樣就是說美國智庫預估是四周到八周所以還是在那個評估的範圍之內目前還在評估的範圍那我沒有我現在是要就教如果16號就停火了那對於目前我們"},{"start":7375.408,"end":7393.97,"text":"這個天然氣、石油相關的成本的吸收會不會降低多少等一下我們也請次長回答第一個就是說委員我想也非常關注這個問題那你也可以看到今天的天然氣或者是原油不管是布蘭特原油或是西德州原油它的價格都一直在下降"},{"start":7394.651,"end":7412.138,"text":"那所以很多預測機構都預期啦這個戰事應該在短期之內會結束那假如是短期之內會結束的話對於我們的CPI的影響其實是會相當有限那對於我們的經濟成長來講的話也不會有太大的影響不會有不會不會就是說"},{"start":7412.998,"end":7442.698,"text":"就是至少我們的CPI不會再上升了嘛 物價不會再上升上去啦因為可能就是說物價會有一些遞延效果啦 那這個戰爭是從2月底開始所以那個遞延效果會慢慢的可能啦 可能會會發生在4月 但是假如說暫時在4月 就好像我們預估在4月16號結束的話那一個整個市場反應會充分的反映到那個CPI的那個指數上面 所以應該是不會 對全年的CPI來講的話 應該是不會有大幅"},{"start":7443.078,"end":7462.867,"text":"上升的可能好那次長回答一下對中油台電呢是當然我們會持續觀察就是說這個部分也許短時間之內要能夠恢復到這2月28號以前的那個那個油價可能我覺得是有困難但是我們會觀察就是說整個那你們中油還有台電吸收成本會不會"},{"start":7464.651,"end":7488.07,"text":"會不會降低 這個會跟油價的這個波動會有關係所以也許如果油價有下降的話那當然就是我們我們中油的這個成本大概就會降低好好謝謝好謝謝市長先請回座 跟城中委員說明一下因為我剛有宣佈6分鐘宣佈6分鐘休息啊 都有算薄"},{"start":7489.246,"end":7504.54,"text":"因為都有算薄啦 公共協同公廟 要休息六分鐘啦那你稍等六分鐘 大家來搜尋一下六分鐘 這個掌握時間六分鐘 現在休息六分鐘"},{"start":7537.364,"end":7538.525,"text":"鸡蛋糕"},{"start":7562.961,"end":7563.621,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":7589.824,"end":7589.844,"text":"小黃蠅蠅"},{"start":7615.523,"end":7615.643,"text":"這裏有個大廈"},{"start":7875.975,"end":7884.064,"text":"來 那個列席官員請回座好 我們繼續開會現在請 下一位執行請陳昌明委員"},{"start":7895.1,"end":7903.135,"text":"呃 主席好首先有請我們體育部齁體育部 黃市長欸 運動部 運動部 現在要改了齁運動部 黃市長我們的黃支部次長"},{"start":7914.607,"end":7941.468,"text":"黃州副市長好今天我們只許是用心良苦特別把運動部召來經濟委員召開他今天所有邀請的人我覺得他不懷好用心良苦用心良苦那我首先請教你一個問題運動部的成立你是要推展全民運動還是要指支國家隊去打我們的世界盃"},{"start":7943.34,"end":7970.878,"text":"應該是兩者並行啦以前對於競技運動的確非常的重視可是運動部成立之後我們會更加的加強全民運動那你運動部成立的時候要指出國家隊我問你一個問題以台灣現在體育的發展我不要講世界運動會、世運我講亞運亞運你覺得以台灣人的體格台灣的運動型態我們有哪一種能拿到前三名的"},{"start":7972.133,"end":7983.13,"text":"有那幾個項目目前嗎今年不錯的是拳擊舉重我們的射箭我們的射擊"},{"start":7984.489,"end":8008.906,"text":"還有部分的田徑項目還有我們的kabadi也不錯我先問你一個問題因為運動跟體型各方面有關係你會不會說要去打籃球或是100米的或是1000米的大概我們會很困難所以我主張運動不需要全民的運動全民的運動能強身健康"},{"start":8009.246,"end":8021.662,"text":"打仗的時候能打,要跑的時候也要跑得比別人快這個很重要最重要要延長人的生命把它運動當為我們日常的生活最重要的一種"},{"start":8023.772,"end":8052.651,"text":"你了解嗎?我了解你要打國家隊不一定去拚我們要選擇一種比較配合台灣人去跟世界來競技來較勁的地方一定要改變這一些的觀念我現在常常看到那個老人捶球運動是老人高而求到處都很普遍你們一定要把它改成一個運動的風趣我覺得最重要其實全民運動最重要那比賽只有一兩個"},{"start":8053.992,"end":8071.028,"text":"那今天我為什麼特別說要感謝我們的召委用心良苦我今天我看了他找來的幾個單位台灣電力公司、台灣棕榆公司、台灣糖業公司、中鋼公司你曉得他找這幾個單位來做什麼?你曉不曉得?"},{"start":8074.721,"end":8082.395,"text":"我沒有那個智慧不是沒有那種智慧是各家單位要出錢來支持我們的運動啊你都不曉得啊"},{"start":8085.201,"end":8106.999,"text":"所以你要看得出來,你看這個召委這樣子你覺得怎麼樣?設計很周到,我說給你了解一下,運動比賽要出勁的,還要出力的,所以你真的要感謝我們的邱召委,你看他紅光滿面,所以他天天有運動才有這樣的結果。"},{"start":8110.08,"end":8128.515,"text":"第二個你說運動產業化又找了產業發展史那我現在也不知道說產業發展史跟運動要如何結合然後我們產業發展史你大概找你過來一定有用意有目的我們要如何來支持運動部你有什麼看法我們請我們"},{"start":8131.377,"end":8153.575,"text":"合作處啊 因為這跟你有關的你看 產業技術師也來 國營事業也來還有產業發展室還有商業發展室 這就是有錢的單位在民間的力量很大你要怎樣來支持配合我們運動部啊這個叫做什麼 今天的主題啊產業的規劃"},{"start":8157.099,"end":8165.812,"text":"那個運動部產業發展所我剛剛看了還有運動產業發展中心的鄭董事長"},{"start":8169.57,"end":8193.385,"text":"這樣處長你先解釋我來問鄭董事長今天召委把這幾個單位找過來經濟部也找過來國家發展委員會也找過來教育部也找過來從來的陣仗沒有這麼大好幾個部會在一起所以去召委執席真的不錯不錯你很有前途希望來"},{"start":8194.872,"end":8197.993,"text":"你要怎麼來找人找幫忙,這樣簡單來講事情今天有經濟部來了,有經濟部的產業師,如果要跟運動來就好你告訴我,因為你是產業嘛,發展中心,我看你的理論在哪裡啊"},{"start":8212.25,"end":8238.089,"text":"好 謝謝委員我們想我們很重要的產業的發展必須要把需求端跟供應端還有環境做起來那我們第一個就是從運動的產業跟產值所在如果以我們六千多億來看運動的製造還有運動的零售大概就佔了將近七成那剩下的大概兩成多到三成是服務業"},{"start":8239.77,"end":8264.685,"text":"如果這樣的提升來看有幾個是發展從蛋黃你覺得要從哪幾個地方發展因為時間快要到了只是又要站起來了那就是競技運動有運動明星的部分讓他能夠關賽推動粉絲的經濟帶動那第二個是往全民運動的部分那就找有運動的族群比較大來推動那你現在覺得哪個運動的族群比較大"},{"start":8265.605,"end":8292.911,"text":"如果從運動的職業運動來看職棒職籃是比較大那其次是在企業聯賽像排球等等這個是整個接棒上來那如果從休閒運動來看族群比較大的是像我們的不需要場地的馬拉松還有路跑這些會先那其次大概是所謂的球類運動揮擊式的羽球網球等等大家講說運動產業很大"},{"start":8295.291,"end":8314.463,"text":"要去完成一個真正的產業鏈當然台灣為什麼會在外面譬如騎腳踏車我們腳踏車王國還有滑雪啦什麼什麼那是叫做產業台灣有的當然我們要繼續發揚光大我現在那叫做世界盃那叫做勝利"},{"start":8315.383,"end":8338.979,"text":"但是你台灣自己本土裡面你怎樣去推展整個要結合在一起的產業我很快跟委員報告第一個是我們運動去結合像製造業的自行車啦或是高爾夫球桿讓它從數位轉型有人工智慧跟科技的導入往服務化走第二個才是創新的服務我一行今天講的運動部來到這邊"},{"start":8341.801,"end":8363.792,"text":"我們苗栗很多的運動場國小國中運動場都還沒鋪完成我麻煩一下特別照顧今天運動部那最基礎的小朋友的運動場所一定要安全一定要弄好我這個特別的拜託有沒有困難我們一起來努力到這裡的教育部我現在不知道運動部對這個有關心嗎"},{"start":8365.553,"end":8380.081,"text":"有啊,一定有啊一定有,表示我經常跟你說的,你會做就是啊是不是我們一起來努力發展這樣說太模糊了啦,你拼命把它做光這要是模糊,你說我全力來幫忙,不對"},{"start":8381.622,"end":8402.879,"text":"我們一直努力好不好這個再拜託一下還有一點這個很不公平台灣的體育人才幾乎在鄉下結果我們培養到小學之中培養起來結果好的人才都跑到六讀高中他們有錢就把這些人挖草這樣你說要怎麼推展體育"},{"start":8405.273,"end":8432.191,"text":"在有錢的六都啊裡面他們都一直挖角讓我們培養辛辛苦苦培養結果那個成果的時候摘果實的時候不是我們原來的發展地都在六都啊啊你聽有辦法改變如果像地方上它確實有一種運動產業非常好的時候市長你多等你啊這個要如何改善跟解決這個問題很嚴重啊"},{"start":8433.703,"end":8459.601,"text":"我們有看到這樣的狀況這也是為什麼我們現在在推動的基層上面我們希望基層的運動能夠再強你那個就要保重因為六都的企業家多我們那邊的企業家少所以不能今天去跟他們說說要不然要跟他們講話你們就要保持下去不要只有六都人口多你就把它補助多一點不合理啦這個世界不公平啦好不好好謝謝"},{"start":8463.745,"end":8491.083,"text":"謝謝,謝謝陳昌平委員多好,讓你多講幾分鐘謝謝我們陳昌平精闢的資訊剛剛您提到的問題為什麼會找我這個國營企業我利用這個時候說明一下台電本來就有基礎了台電它有足球隊有棒球隊也有排球隊中遊過去有足球隊也有棒球隊那這個台糖是大地主"},{"start":8492.213,"end":8512.584,"text":"在南部你如果要大型的這個運動場館啊需要如果土地成本能夠降低那台糖也應該可以參與所以請台糖董事長來也請董事長如果未來在我的選區要蓋一個製蛋的話這個再請這個台糖能夠大力支持我們在岡山那邊有15幾公頃的土地"},{"start":8520.573,"end":8538.143,"text":"所以我今天找他來是有特殊的戰略意義因為為什麼找中鋼來?因為大型場館要新進,需要鋼構以後要建一個大型場館一定需要建築鋼構,所以今天請中鋼來"},{"start":8539.44,"end":8557.587,"text":"所以我沒有請台水來 因為台水所以我剛剛陳昌明委員說了我為什麼要請這個國營事業來最主要目的還是這樣子希望大家一起 國營事業一起來參與好我們繼續質詢 下一位林楚芸 林楚芸不在現在請李育林委員"},{"start":8571.34,"end":8573.084,"text":"好謝謝主席我們請運動部的黃市長"},{"start":8584.383,"end":8611.03,"text":"市長近期我們WBC世界棒球經典賽剛剛落幕在全台掀起了棒球熱所以我們看到這個棒球啊可以不只是說它是競技上的一個活動也會凝聚到國人的這個情感也要讓世界看到台灣的這個重要的這個舞台所以我們整合了國家的資源大力的來推動體育的政策發展在去年9月的時候我們的體育署"},{"start":8613.19,"end":8640.276,"text":"就升格為我們的運動部當時2013年的時候體育署有推出了我們的這個運動政策白皮書那去年成立為運動部之後的話2025年你們也有聯合的一些諮詢要提出的運動白皮書但是運動白皮書你們諮商過這些我們的專家或者是我們相關的運動的部分的一些資料但是你們並沒有在去年"},{"start":8640.976,"end":8647.318,"text":"民底提出來這個白皮書而且要公布說要在2027年為什麼時間要一直延宕下去"},{"start":8648.305,"end":8676.752,"text":"跟委員報告因為原本的政策白皮書的規劃是以體育署的概念作為基礎去做研發的可是運動你們的修正要這麼久的時間嗎因為在今年年底可以嗎的確需要一段時間把理論跟實際的東西去年七八月就討論過了今年可以提出來嗎今年出版應該可以提得出來白皮書是可以今年就提出來我們出版可以提出來還需要出稿已經出來了"},{"start":8677.552,"end":8692.325,"text":"初稿已經出來了 次長你不知道嗎我知道你的初稿是什麼時候出來的 去年就出來了初稿出來的時候 我要求我們的行政部門因為初稿出來的時候 他相對的理想非常的好"},{"start":8692.965,"end":8718.402,"text":"所以還有今年續年的時間給你我們知道如果你一直白皮書延宕的話會讓我們推動這個運體育的這些政策會受到一些阻礙所以盡快把它推出來好不好是 我們盡快接下來就是要跟請教一下次長因為這個2013年的運動白皮書裡面特別有提到救生人員的這個人力培訓訂定了一些目標在2020年到2025年你們一直都沒有達標"},{"start":8722.925,"end":8731.479,"text":"你知道現在在我們地方上很多的狀況就是很多游泳池的救生員人力不足的情形嗎我有知道這個狀況那你解決了嗎"},{"start":8733.305,"end":8757.348,"text":"目前我們是增加我們考試的場次以前考試的單位好像比較少我們已經開放這樣子考試的單位因為考照合格率很低啊就算你考到了也人家不願意去從事這個工作所以這個救生人員沒辦法解決包括我們桃園的話就有我們的運動中心的話包括巴德和中立都運動人員不夠最近才慢慢的來補足了"},{"start":8757.728,"end":8771.704,"text":"所以我們希望說你們要想出辦法來可以跟我們的運動相關的單位包括學校也好是不是考照畢業必須要把這考照就是他們的門檻可不可以可以建造合作的方式來可以解決這個問題"},{"start":8773.766,"end":8794.784,"text":"那接下來我們再請教一下就是說去年我們三讀通過的這個運動產業發展條例通過那麼久了給你法給你法源要你去修正這些相關的辦法但是我們看到一年過去的時間你們都沒有就是在我們的運動投資產業的相關辦法裡面包括我們請一下我們的國發會的這個葉主委"},{"start":8800.289,"end":8821.975,"text":"為什麼你們兩個部會 運動部跟我們的國發會為什麼沒有辦法把這個投資辦法共識提出來跟委員報告 這個投資辦法目前在我們部內已經快要完成它的一個程序將要進行預告將要 今年可以提出來嗎我們預計在這個月或下個月就會提出預告預告完 修正完之後現在跟國發會沒有共識嗎"},{"start":8823.53,"end":8851.649,"text":"不是哪些部分沒有共識目前跟國外是有共識的只是我們在程序上面必須要廣聽社會大眾的意見已經討論過了沒有我們要預告也就是我們把出版出來之後要預告對社會大眾預告所以有哪些的部分增加的部分呢有沒有我們目前的方向上是希望能夠在投資上面能夠是用民間領頭政府跟頭的方式來做運動產業的投資好所以你說今年就會出來葉主委"},{"start":8853.67,"end":8878.321,"text":"沒有問題嗎基本上沒有問題因為比例式的投資嘛給他們減稅的方式嘛是不是是不是減稅減稅的方式減稅可能不會是唯一的啦但我們國發基金除了說剛剛的那一個100億基金之外的話其實我們那個創業天使投資啊已經在投資那個運動產業了那目前大概已經有投資大概6千3百億左右了6千3百萬對不起6千3百萬"},{"start":8881.062,"end":8890.85,"text":"如果說六千多億的話也不錯啦那我相信我體育的賽事很多國際賽事都在台灣舉行的好 謝謝那我接著再請一下我們經濟部的我們的何次長"},{"start":8891.752,"end":8919.926,"text":"因為今天很多我們稍微提出來這個議題是非常好的所以我們要多問一下包括運動設備方面的話我們像我們文明的世界品牌包括我們自行車的製造商我們的捷安特跟這個美麗達還有主打我們的健身器材的這個橋山科技他們都是非常亮眼的成績雖然說沒有半導體這麼亮眼但是它在我們國際上還是我們台灣之光"},{"start":8920.526,"end":8949.586,"text":"所以我們希望我們在運動設備案設備業之這個方面我們就盡量來輔導他但是我們因為在製造上的製造業製造鞋子也好或者是紡織部分的話我們國際大品牌他們的供應商他們的能力跟他們的品質都是受國際所肯定的但是利潤上我們卻受制於國際的大品牌所以我們現在提出了這個AI這個人工智慧可以帶動著我們AI化的話"},{"start":8950.146,"end":8968.433,"text":"但我們的這個很多產業可以轉型在AI化那是不是我們可以幫助我們傳統製造這個代工產業走向這個品牌化 國際化可不可以是 當然可以這個也是我們經濟部一直在輔導產業的方向那也就是說我們希望把這個台灣的這些優勢產業"},{"start":8969.873,"end":8975.694,"text":"能夠推向國際所以國際的一些重要的展會我們也都會帶著這些廠商到國外去用台灣館的方式來呈現在國內的部分像自行車展的話也是國內一個非常大的一個國際性的一個展覽我們國內的廠商也都是會將他們的這些自由品牌的產品在那個展場去做"},{"start":8995.74,"end":9011.471,"text":"這個展覽所以我想這些都是我們未來在推動品牌台灣一個非常重要的一個所以我們現在很多AI的轉型企業我們多多的輔導讓他們有整個供應鏈的優勢是 進軍國際好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝林議員請大家請回座好 下面質詢請李崑哲委"},{"start":9027.79,"end":9033.717,"text":"好 謝謝主席那我們請這一個國發會的葉主委還有運動部的黃次長運動部黃次長"},{"start":9038.183,"end":9060.343,"text":"委員好主委好 市長好這個請教一下這個美籍的台藝球員Fairchild在我們WBC的這個經典賽裡面表現非常的亮眼然後在一個月前國發會說這個要跟運動部要來協助我們這個Fairchild來取得這個就業金卡那一個月時間過了我不曉得進度怎麼樣"},{"start":9061.064,"end":9087.754,"text":"目前我們跟就是Fairchild他本人跟他太太他們兩個都有意願所以我們正在收集資料所以應該近期會這個一個月前一個月後的答案還是一樣因為我們現在請他提供我們護照我們再幫他後續的那個部分幫這兩位他們夫妻都有意願取得就業金卡那大概多久可以完成"},{"start":9095.93,"end":9113.877,"text":"我們只要中職推薦 寫了推薦書之後的話我們大概一兩個禮拜就可以完成手續中職對 中華職棒聯盟寫推薦書那為什麼是他們寫推薦書因為就整個那個申請的資格上面來看的話我們需要有一個機構來當作推薦人"},{"start":9118.018,"end":9139.584,"text":"那這個有跟中華職棒大聯盟聯絡了嗎?會那所以還沒有聯絡是不是?現在我們在等護照嗎?因為對方要給我們護照整個程序才能開始跑對啊因為這個應該是上週吧他太太也有來開球啦那我就想說那到底這一個月的時間你們做了哪些事情那如果這樣講一個月之內應該可以辦成啊?"},{"start":9143.226,"end":9159.653,"text":"應該是我們也希望在一個月之內可以辦成那他取得這個就業競考之後那對他來講有什麼樣的一個方便之處他進我們國門的話幾乎是沒有限制不需要受到我們那些什麼簽證的影響那就這樣子而已喔"},{"start":9161.761,"end":9182.121,"text":"不用辦簽證可以自由工作就譬如說像Fairchild他的太太要在台灣工作的話是不受任何限制的對啦我要講這個不是說進來不用簽證啦我是說我們希望他能夠進來那我們也希望說如果有機會他當然能夠留在台灣所以國發會不是只有發卡機構嘛對不對我們希望國客會"},{"start":9186.004,"end":9198.796,"text":"國發會你必須要跟比如說相關的部會來做一個結合比如說我們有跟這一個經濟部也好跟這個運動部也好然後跟勞動部也好跟教育部也好我們來做一個結合嘛"},{"start":9199.116,"end":9217.766,"text":"那做一個節奏就希望說拿到就業金卡的今天不論是運動員或是其他的剛剛主委也有提到說除了這個運動員之外甚至連防護員跟運動產業相關的人員我們也希望他們如果意願我們就協助他拿這個就業金卡所以不是只有拿卡就是未來"},{"start":9218.866,"end":9240.012,"text":"我們希望他們留在台灣我覺得這才是最重要的台灣的運動相關的產業才有這個顯著的幫助因為我們國發會也有一個Talent Taiwan這樣的一個辦公室我們Talent Taiwan其實最主要的一個目的就是在協助所有的外籍人士在台灣能夠安穩的落地在這邊落地生根"},{"start":9240.712,"end":9259.418,"text":"對 因為其實齁 這個之前委員有關心過我們關於這個運動產業這方面的申請就業金卡比例很低1%左右嘛 對不對那所以是大家認為說這個台灣不動市運動產業這一塊嗎那還是說在申請這方面遇到什麼樣的困難"},{"start":9259.898,"end":9279.19,"text":"沒有因為就我的資料來講的話目前申請運動這個領域申請到就業金卡大概有32個人那我們未來啦希望就是運動部可以的話一年是不是能夠達到100人這樣一個KPI那請運動部來說明一下這個主委有這個KPI值那運動部來說明一下"},{"start":9280.964,"end":9305.115,"text":"我們當然會結合產業的需求也不是隨便就找外國人進來當然啦一定進來的時候對我們的產業對我們的專業有所提升有所幫助的人這我都知道但我的意思是說主委有這一個這個意思是說希望能夠引進百味的這個運動產業的相關人員能夠進來那運動部做了什麼樣的準備主席你今天的這個題目"},{"start":9305.515,"end":9311.189,"text":"非常的好所以呢我必須這個題目要多講一點我也稱讚一下我們主席給我多一些時間20秒來"},{"start":9315.679,"end":9339.625,"text":"我們其實還是從我們的人力的需求上面我們的第一個大方向就是進來的這一個人一定是可以幫助我們提升本土的發展這我當然知道啦我是說這一個剛剛主委有提到這個100位我是說那你們覺得有機會達成嗎這個需要透過各方面去尋采啊不是我們單方面說要有多少好 OK 那請這一個主委"},{"start":9341.366,"end":9367.457,"text":"我幫忙補充一下就是說以往32位大部分都是在運動員那我們現在這一次的話是希望不只是運動員教練裁判尤其是運動產業人才這個部分的話我們希望能夠大幅度的一個增加這樣的譬如說我們可以增加運動科研數據分析醫療防護以及經理管理等專業後勤人力所以假如說把這些都納進來的話"},{"start":9368.797,"end":9397.075,"text":"一百位的話應該是有機會達成的主委這樣講就比較具體嘛那我最後再問一個就是說你們說要協助運動部來申請主題式白衣基金這個現在具體的這個方向或是具體的做法怎麼樣現在目前就是等那個運動部把它的辦法公告之後的話那就送到我們國發會這邊那我們在國發會的管理會裡面就會開始討論那預計要多久因為是你們要協助他們嘛預計多久這一個白衣基金"},{"start":9397.935,"end":9425.003,"text":"這一個主題是白金就是專門運動這方面的嘛運動部預計在五月初完成公告那接下來的話我們會盡快在最近這一次的那個管理會上面就把他排進來好啦我希望上半年至少這個先有一個這個粗略的這一個這個出來啦讓大家了解一下那未來看要怎麼樣去協助我們的這個運動產業好不好好謝謝主席被你稱讚了一下那你多了多了五分鐘"},{"start":9426.497,"end":9443.174,"text":"你講的比本委會還多你說的那個白衣支持運動產業那是我提議的在國會提議的有啦 那你講很多來 下一位質詢請蔡春籌委員"},{"start":9468.348,"end":9472.893,"text":"主席好有請經濟次長還有運動部次長運動部黃次長委員好兩位次長好"},{"start":9485.526,"end":9489.148,"text":"運動部在成立之後運動產業就被視為我國未來運動發展的一個重要的一個資質之一那相較於歐盟日本還有英美等先進國家運動產業的一個占比GDP比重普遍可以達2%至2.6%的一個"},{"start":9512.121,"end":9518.085,"text":"那個成長那台灣去年在1.3%的一個顯示 仍然有一個成長的一個空間那在過去五年 運動用品還有器材的製造及批發及零售業仍然是在支撐一個運動產業的一個經濟的一個火車頭剛剛我們有很多委員都有提到我們的自行車 我們的高爾夫球"},{"start":9541.199,"end":9545.64,"text":"的那個球技還有我們的運動跑步跑步機這都是我們打造我們台灣品牌的一個項目那總感覺我們對於這樣比較重的一個工業我們是發展得很好但是感覺在輕服務還有數位這個部分的結構好像有一點失衡請兩位次長做一個分析"},{"start":9569.562,"end":9592.779,"text":"那這個產業部分是不是我先來做補充一下就是說剛剛委員提到的這個部分確實是最近許多的這些運動的科技的這些這種產品也開始有很大幅的這個出現在市場上結合AI的或是結合許多這個平台運動健康管理的平台的這些業者"},{"start":9593.399,"end":9600.366,"text":"那其實他們都是軟硬整合的這個部分來提供給這個消費者來運用那這也是我們現在其實台灣的強項我們怎麼樣能夠把這些半導體也好或說我們的自動訊的這個產品能夠融入在這些包括不管是運動器材也好或是說我們的運動"},{"start":9612.998,"end":9633.038,"text":"管理或是健康促進的這些產品項目裡面來其實這個都是我們現在台灣的這個機會那我們現在許多的這些前瞻科技的這個研發的部分也是協助業界在投入這個部分所以這個產品的部分也在做一些數位轉型或是智慧化的這個開發的這個過程裡面"},{"start":9637.683,"end":9642.026,"text":"我知道我們這個軟體的部分我們當然在報告書裡面都有寫但是我們只有沒有看到產值產值有多少表示就是說我們沒有辦法把原發的東西能夠行銷出去"},{"start":9658.139,"end":9676.423,"text":"那我們希望就是說不只是在核銷補助的這個建位而已而是能夠把我們的產品像我們的硬體的部分能夠行銷到我們台灣或者是世界世界去這個是我們期待的再請問一下"},{"start":9683.084,"end":9686.547,"text":"國家運動產業發展中心 運動部下設立的行政法人負責推動運動產業調查 人才培育還有市場的一個拓展該中心也有專責跨部會合作 以前年運動還有賽會的一個輔導產業刺激其跨域創新為四大核心的方向請問一下運動部代表說明一下跨部會的情況"},{"start":9711.426,"end":9727.494,"text":"是以哪些跨部位來做一個合作就跨部位的部分以運動結合像觀光旅遊跟交通部那第二個是剛談到的大健康跟衛福部再來是經濟部的製造的運動器材設備怎麼讓它服務化大概這三大方向"},{"start":9730.269,"end":9733.01,"text":"我們也希望未來我們能夠把運動觀光一併來做一個推出在這裡剛剛都沒有問到我們那個黃次長在這裡跟黃次長鼓勵一下因為我們運動部剛剛成立"},{"start":9749.818,"end":9774.032,"text":"目前應該是人力短缺三位次長兩位次長來做那我們希望我們運動部剛剛成立我們這個運動部的高牆一定要把它撐住在這裡也勉勵我們次長能夠還有我們運動部能夠加油為我們台灣的一個運動能夠開創一個新的一個局面謝謝委員的鼓勵我們一起努力謝謝謝謝來來"},{"start":9779.113,"end":9789.274,"text":"好 那請回座這個蘇英權 蘇英權不在 張雅琳 張雅琳在好 請張雅琳委員"},{"start":9799.1,"end":9808.823,"text":"好 謝謝主席那接下來我們要邀請我們的運動部次長跟教育部的代副署長教育部代副署長你好謝謝"},{"start":9819.557,"end":9830.232,"text":"謝謝我想其實我看了很多今天的報告我們強調我們有很多的投資在賽事上面那我想要有賽事那選手到底在哪裡"},{"start":9831.343,"end":9860.883,"text":"好不然你投資很多的賽事我們選手根本就沒有沒有選手要怎麼辦賽事呢所以我想討論的就是鰻魚基層的訓練啦我想從這個是教育部體育署之前每一年我們都會陸陸續續做很多的一些研究了解我們用量化的方式來研究那我們就發現說大概在國中跟高中端這一端呢其實我們只有三成的學生認為自己運動時間充足那相比日本或者是德國或者是美國我們的運動時間課堂上面的安排也是相對少的"},{"start":9861.823,"end":9883.357,"text":"所以我想那這是第一個問題那第二個問題是說他們也這是你們的調查也就是說他們覺得現在的運動時間跟空間都完全不夠所以我想問一下我們如何從運動部要如何跟教育部一起來努力讓我們有更多的運動時間這是第一個那空間的部分也要如何的努力呢是不是可以先請次長先回答簡單的回答"},{"start":9883.717,"end":9910.787,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝委員的關心的確在學齡階段在體育課這個部分的業務目前的分工是在教育部那我們也知道在學生體育課上面因為他上面有一個課綱的一個限制他必須根據課綱來排課至於場地的部分 處於專項運動特別是競技運動類的設施運動部則無旁貸但是一般教育類的體育課類的設施目前的分工是由教育部來組長"},{"start":9911.647,"end":9925.943,"text":"好 那除非想要代付我們該如何解決這個問題呢因為這不是一年兩年的你可以看到那張表已經是好幾年包含我們的國際審查都是十年以上的問題這要如何解決是 我想原來在課綱裡頭就有體育的課程嘛"},{"start":9926.664,"end":9947.427,"text":"那教部會陸續督導就是各校能夠落實體育教學教學正常化體育課就避免被挪移這樣那另外的話其實就是學校其實還是有很多社團活動是體育社團這只有國小端啦國中以後就沒有了啦國中還是很少啦而且它只有一堂社團課啦"},{"start":9948.328,"end":9962.78,"text":"這是你們的調查報告嗎還是有一些團體活動或是彈性的活動的事件那有多少是拿來做運動的呢這應該非常少吧我想你們要不要更清楚的去掌握現實的困境因為我想"},{"start":9965.762,"end":9989.249,"text":"不是只有這個調查包含我們的這個去年也有發布一個台灣學生的身體活動量級跟全球依照兒童健康聯盟的指標我們只有到F級只有我們大概是怎麼等級呢跟印尼菲律賓差不多我們輸給日本跟韓國所以如果在我們的基礎的選手基層沒有做起來選手從哪裡來賽事怎麼辦我覺得這是一個很大的問題然後再來就是回到抱歉我們再回到次長"},{"start":9991.206,"end":10018.514,"text":"我們其實也有一些抱歉就是關於女性這個研究裡面其實也有了解說在女性在青少年的時候她們遇到什麼樣子的問題那她們基本上就是有講到一些成就感很低但是為什麼成就感很低挫折很高這個我看不到質化的研究我看不到任何的質化研究我不曉得說運動部這邊有沒有做相關的質化去了解女性不管是學生也好或是運動員也好她們遇到的困境到底是什麼有沒有掌握"},{"start":10018.914,"end":10034.844,"text":"目前這方面的研究議題我個人是沒有掌握啦不過從我過去長時間在這個領域的觀察因為我們過去的發展是以技能學習運動技能學習為主要的內涵那對於一些平常沒有那麼在從事身體活動的"},{"start":10036.005,"end":10061.489,"text":"特別是女生的學生他們會覺得沒有成就感所以我們希望未來在這方面的發展是朝著從基本的能力而不是競技能力簡單來說好不好就是次長可不可以答應我一件事情就是我們去了解做質問的了解徹底的了解為什麼女性的女生學生也好還有運動員選手他們不願意持續的做這樣子的運動為什麼他們對於運動的參與度這麼低我們是不是可以來做這部分的了解"},{"start":10062.049,"end":10087.583,"text":"來瞭解他的障礙在哪裡第二個部分還有就是企業我剛剛也聽到企業有投資很多的運動賽事然後這個金額也是增加的但是我想知道到底有沒有投資在基層的訓練上面呢目前的數量以我們目前看到的其實還沒有很高這也是為什麼抱歉委員這也是為什麼我們在未來在計算假設他的贊助的金額跟那個捐贈的金額是往基層走他的計算的方式是150%"},{"start":10090.263,"end":10117.149,"text":"但是我覺得有個實務面上的問題就是說這也是基層的軍運部告訴我的就是以FIFA來說他們的足球是要發展俱樂部的系統但日本也在2022年宣示了會從學校走向俱樂部可是他們要做俱樂部如果要去有這個主課場的時候他們要承租場地的時候遇到一個租約的一些相關的規範變成是說他們沒有辦法做長期的租但沒有辦法長期的租他就不可能去做更多的投資"},{"start":10118.109,"end":10143.499,"text":"對不對所以這個部分是不是可以來協調呢那另外一個還有就是廢校的一些場地是不是也可以跟教育部來協調如何讓企業可以進場因為企業是想要進場的這部分因為今天時間有限那我們是不是約時間來繼續來討論有關於如何讓企業來投資基層運動的這件事情可以嗎是的我們一起來討論好謝謝謝謝張雅婷委員來市長先回座下一位請蔡易餘委員"},{"start":10156.667,"end":10158.709,"text":"好 謝謝趙偉那我們是不是有請運動部次長運動部黃次長委員你好次長好"},{"start":10172.225,"end":10193.766,"text":"今天是在講這個運動產業不過我現在還是站在我們嘉義縣在嘉義縣主要在這個運動的場館來說基本上是相對其他地方來說是明顯的偏低我們舉以數字來說目前嘉義縣所有"},{"start":10194.767,"end":10220.739,"text":"就是把所有的運動項目加起來的一個場館就是只有28處那在全國的比例來說它就只有1.488那我們加一些面積也是很大這麼大的一個面積結果只有28個運動場館這運動場館還包括不同的運動項目有的可能是羽球有的可能是網球還是怎樣的一個運動場館但是就是只有28處"},{"start":10221.96,"end":10241.685,"text":"很明顯如果站在運動平權的一個概念來說相對其他縣市官價是偏弱那所以站在這一點的話我們希望是不是未來運動部在成立之後可以就所謂這一些不管是偏向也好或者是每一個縣市它的多少人口"},{"start":10242.165,"end":10255.86,"text":"他就必須要有多少的一個運動的一個空間給他們有足夠的一個運動的一個能量這件事是不是我們運動部這邊可以來做一個通盤的檢討呢是的我們會從這個方面來做努力"},{"start":10257.346,"end":10282.443,"text":"從這方面因為我事實上數字有拿給你看如果我們嘉義縣在這五到十年內大概新增的運動償款就只有三個五年內大概就只剩一個這個一個就是我們現在說的水上的全民運動中心所以你看這五年來其他的相對跟嘉義縣可能比較類似屬於農業縣的你看雲林就增加了五個"},{"start":10283.883,"end":10311.92,"text":"運動的一個場館苗栗也增加了三個花蓮也增加了四個這五年內我說這五年內嘉義就是在水上增加了一個運動中心所以如果以這樣來說未來有可能啦嘉義也有需要再有一些新的運動場館尤其是在人口集中人口就是比較相對比較都會化的一個地方像中埔的山河地區像民雄像鋪子"},{"start":10313.041,"end":10333.32,"text":"他們也是需要一個綜合的一個運動館所以這個當然未來不管是地方政府提報計畫我們還是希望運動部站在這一點可以多支持我們家一點這個可以嗎是的我們會努力來做這樣子方面的協助好那第二個我再來問就是說如果你現在就業金卡"},{"start":10334.994,"end":10355.205,"text":"就業金卡的一個數字因為我們知道就業金卡是吸引外國的這一些攬柴嘛讓這一些具有一些專門技術職業的人然後可以來台灣定居然後也讓台灣覺得是他們一個適合生活的一個地方結果以就業金卡目前看起來運動類"},{"start":10357.808,"end":10369.207,"text":"運動類大概就只有30個比例上0.19%也是明顯的偏低所以運動部有辦法打造出一個適合全世界運動的人才會來台灣"},{"start":10371.669,"end":10393.879,"text":"來台灣居住來台灣接受他平常的訓練有辦法打造出這樣的一個環境嗎根據目前的資料顯示這持有運動類型的金卡多數是運動員那其實在運動產業的發展當中其實有非常多的專業人才也可以透過這樣的機制進到台灣來而我們努力的方向就是希望能夠去招攬"},{"start":10394.739,"end":10417.689,"text":"各類的運動專業人才能夠透過這樣的機制來台灣協助我們一起來提升台灣運動產業的發展對那具體上說你們要怎麼去鼓勵這些運動專業當然不同的運動會有不同的他們的一個喜好啦可能這個國內這個國內他在哪一些運動是可能比較適合國內發展那可能相對的人才會來過去"},{"start":10419.17,"end":10435.689,"text":"因為對不起因為過去都是運動員那都是會有一個推薦單位也就是透過協會或是聯盟來推薦這個優秀的運動員那因為這樣的一個推薦他可以進來接下來我們就需要透過各方面的專業團體幫我們邀請比如說有國際上面非常會經營運動賽會的人才"},{"start":10440.434,"end":10458.207,"text":"我们台湾将要对我们台湾的运动赛会做整体的一个优质的改变我们要想办法去吸引这一类的人才到台湾来工作带领我们在运动赛会经营管理上面的一种提升如果这样的人才愿意来台湾我们会非常非常地欢迎"},{"start":10459.727,"end":10487.523,"text":"所以就是就辦理運動賽會這個也算是運動專業他就是可能就比較扣緊今天的主題叫做運動產業既然說我們運動如果整個產業的話包括整個運動這個的經營管理也都是運動的專業並不是只有不是只有運動員或者是防護員包括經營的人才都是屬於那如果以次長你現在來看起來"},{"start":10488.772,"end":10498.452,"text":"扣回今天的主題運動產業你認為台灣有辦法把體育運動變成產業的大概台灣目前都是哪些運動比較有機會"},{"start":10500.253,"end":10526.968,"text":"目前的運動發展以職業運動來說當然就是棒球籃球跟排球我們希望其實我們非常的希望看到是更多基層的因為我們目前在少年足球這一塊它的參與率其實是非常非常的高的比克球目前在基層也非常多人的參與因此這類型有很大基礎的參與人口的都有可能透過我們的引導跟協助跟透過地方俱樂部的一種引導"},{"start":10527.968,"end":10544.611,"text":"讓他成為一個生態系只要生態系可以建立的起來他就有機會成為一個產業我看我們地方我們地方國小事實上在推這個五人制足球事實上也都不錯很多國小他很願意去踢這個這個足球但是看起來"},{"start":10546.184,"end":10571.355,"text":"都在國小端 可能到了國高中後就忽然間這個運動就比較沒什麼看起來好像有一些銜接上的一個障礙這也是我們希望能夠把這個學生學校為單位這個概念慢慢的轉換為社區的俱樂部的概念透過外面的企業來支持這個俱樂部讓它可以永續的發展下去"},{"start":10571.775,"end":10596.702,"text":"好如果站在產業立場我認為的確應該是這樣去推動不同的運動他有不同的發展的面向那主要養成國人運動的一個風氣我想這是現在我們你們升格為運動部後應該要這樣去努力的好不好的確是好謝謝謝謝好謝謝蔡議員來次長先回座下一位資訊請徐護魁委員"},{"start":10607.826,"end":10633.856,"text":"謝主席,有請我們運動部黃政次運動部,黃次長喂,你好次長好,我想運動部是我們去年9月9號成立嘛那是一個受到國人高度關注的一個部會那尤其我們這個首任的部長是我們這個奧運金牌,我們李陽部長"},{"start":10634.796,"end":10660.962,"text":"那當然這個運動部的應該發揮的一個功能跟角色我想應該也是未來很多包含很多委員包含很多國人大家都會關注的一個部會但是在這個今天看到你們提出這個洋洋灑灑的報告之前我先請教次長一個問題次長你們目前的是一個新的單位你們目前的編制跟現原的狀況差距多少"},{"start":10662.526,"end":10682.558,"text":"應該還有將近30%還沒有到位30%沒有到位你們後續這些這麼多的業務怎麼推動因為他是公務人員我們必須要經過一個特定固定的管道來招募有招扣商調的也有包括通過高考的人進來他時間的確需要花一點時間"},{"start":10683.906,"end":10703.341,"text":"對啦 但是業務推動跟績效不會等你們人員到位才開始這的確是我們現在的同仁都非常非常的辛苦因為業務量並沒有因為人少而減少市長所以我想我還是要幫我們部裡面的同仁這個加油打氣啦因為這個因為大家承受的壓力都很大真的很辛苦"},{"start":10704.702,"end":10732.322,"text":"市長我想這個運動部已經把這個運動產業提升到國家戰略的一個層級這個我們非常肯定那我們也支持運動健康科技跟產業的結合讓運動不是只有競技更是一個國家發展的一個新動能但現在目前你們提出114年整體的一個運動產值高達6000多億但是看起來中央可能有一些大的方向要推動"},{"start":10733.263,"end":10762.327,"text":"但是回過頭來我們還是要提醒部裡面尤其像這個地方到底實際上能不能受到這個受益或者是在這個區域的發展上面能不能有這個運動產業的一個進駐我想是關心到整個區域發展很重要的一環那像屏東來講我們有東港大鵬灣海域杭村墾丁半島的一個國家公園遊憩區還有小琉球的一個水上活動"},{"start":10763.227,"end":10779.341,"text":"這樣的一個戶外運動跟水域的一個條件我想在臺灣是這個很有優勢的一個運動產業的一個發展的一個地區那就這樣的一個屏東縣的發展來講次長願不願意怎麼樣來協助屏東縣政府來做這樣的一個推動"},{"start":10779.921,"end":10794.034,"text":"跟委員報告目前我們的這個產值6000多億產值當中70%多是在製造業跟零售業也就是說我們服務類型的運動產業是相對的比較還有待去開發的而"},{"start":10795.875,"end":10816.225,"text":"以水域來說我了解我們全民署今年開始對於水域活動這一類的業務有專注的在推動從明年開始我們跟海委會一起來推動我們海洋運動海洋科技的這件事情所以就是說我們會找一些示範的場地如果有些場地適合的話我們優先的來選擇"},{"start":10817.896,"end":10841.768,"text":"我想因地制宜很重要啦 市長什麼樣的區域你們有山域的活動也有海域的一些活動我想用不一樣的這個在地的一些優勢特色然後把這些的運動產值觀光消費產值甚至一些運動賽事都可以帶進來像我舉屏東縣來講我們大概平均1.5個月就會辦一場全國性的一個賽事在屏東"},{"start":10842.908,"end":10860.008,"text":"但是我們看到的是除了這個選手很多人來這邊比賽之外我們跟著相對性的一些運動的一些產業的部分並沒有跟著進駐進來有點可惜啦所以我才會提醒市長說能不能去媒合這樣的一個相關的一些產業能夠進駐到屏東"},{"start":10861.83,"end":10884.937,"text":"是的 謝謝委員的關心的確在我們運發中心的一個任務之一其實就是要優化我們的賽事我們希望能夠透過這樣子的輔導讓地方的比賽不單單是只有運動員進來而已我們也更希望透過運動賽事的舉辦能夠吸引更多的家人旁邊的商品的一個銷售這樣子才有辦法去支撐一個地方產業的發展"},{"start":10886.537,"end":10902.191,"text":"像比如說我們現在未來我們屏東也要蓋一個一萬五千人的國際棒球場但是不能只來看打棒球未來住宿消費一些油氣的一些場域能不能同步來協助屏東縣政府一起來規劃一起來進行我們跟地方政府一起來合作好好那謝謝次長謝謝好謝謝習務委員"},{"start":10906.31,"end":10915.958,"text":"市長先回座接下來王美惠王美惠王美惠不在林德甫林德甫林德甫不在賴委員賴委員賴委員不在何俊仁何俊仁何俊仁不在消費資源請林倩其委員"},{"start":10927.796,"end":10932.279,"text":"好 謝謝我們主席邱昭偉本席在這邊請我們這個國發會的現在是藝術委還有我們運動部的黃次長謝謝"},{"start":10943.626,"end":10954.738,"text":"謝謝這個召委今天安排的這個題目所以本席長期也對運動的各項發展非常關注所以本席今天在這個經濟委員會想針對這個運動產業的一個百億基金的這個區域跟項目落地的問題來跟兩位做一個請教"},{"start":10962.666,"end":10985.986,"text":"所以本席今天要請教是運動產業的投資政策那特別是兩個我們的部會所協作的主題式的百億基金怎麼樣落實在水域運動跟花東地區那麼國發會透過這個百億基金來支持運動產業那麼也針對教練還有防護員等產業鏈在進行資金的挹注那另外呢運動部也依據我們這個運動發展條例規劃了10年100億的一個投資方案"},{"start":10990.269,"end":11014.39,"text":"那現在有一些政策基礎也有資金來源但是本席關注的是那個資金會投到哪裡那怎麼投這是還是怎麼能夠解決真正的結構的問題所以本席就兩方面來做一個請教第一個是水域運動那臺南四面環海那本席長期也關注水域運動那剛才在前面委員的一個詢答上我們也聽到次長說未來在全民的水域運動上"},{"start":11015.271,"end":11034.026,"text":"也會有更積極的作為所以本席在這邊非常的欣慰所以長期的一個推動也感謝部裡面這樣一個支持所以在台灣這樣一個四面環海的國家那我們終於在水域上那我希望未來也是可以在法規上再做一些各部會跟緊密的一些連結來推動水域的一個捷徑"},{"start":11037.368,"end":11056.694,"text":"但是因為我們先前長期的都一些比較零散的推動那場域教練防護跟租賃設備還有保險的機制尤其是保險都缺乏一些產業鏈那麼如果以百億基金的角度來看本席認為這個水域運動其實是非常適合成為一個大標的"},{"start":11057.594,"end":11080.933,"text":"那也是非常特色的一個標的剛才次長這邊有提到這個當然在產業推動上目前已經有數量的當然有一些就是團體型的運動那但是呢台灣的這個水域的條件其實是可以成為世界在運動方面的一個很重要的特色所以我們是不是有機會來支持區域型的水域運動中心然後投資"},{"start":11081.753,"end":11097.846,"text":"水域安全教育跟水域運動教練的一個培訓體系而且來發展結合觀光的海洋運動成業鏈那本席請教運動部跟國發會目前是不是已經將水域運動納入相關的投資方案"},{"start":11098.889,"end":11125.632,"text":"這個部分是不是可以請部會這邊來做一個回應第一個就是說我們國發會的那個100億資金的話我們會尊重各部會的專業判斷以及他每一個部會裡面會有一個審查的機制那至於那謝謝那本席在這邊就呼籲因為水域長期有被忽略掉所以請國發會這邊在水域的一個運動上可以用比較支持的而且推動的一個概念來支持這樣一個基金的投入"},{"start":11126.993,"end":11142.067,"text":"對因為未來國防會會推動一個投資整合平台啦那這個整合平台上面我們可以建議啦建議運動部在這水域方面的話可以多多多多投資一些資金這樣子那謝謝齁那這個部分本期要先針對我們知道運動部"},{"start":11143.288,"end":11170.198,"text":"不過剛才我想在水域的部分都有做很本席這個私下也都做一些推動那一些專業的一個建議那也謝謝運動部在剛才我聽到次長針對其他委員的一些回應那應該也聽到了有一些結果那麼第二部分是有關於花東地區那本席在總質詢其實有針對運動的部分跟院長做一些請教結果院長竟然很明確的來對本席表示"},{"start":11170.678,"end":11193.559,"text":"未來在運動場館培訓跟管理的這個部分有記號性的想要往東部來發展那所以本席在這邊要談的是說那花東是不是已經成為優先投資的一個區域還是如同其他很多委員都關注的那是不是最終資源還是會因為既有的型態而留在這個所謂的比較人口密集的都會區"},{"start":11194.62,"end":11219.497,"text":"那本席這邊補充一下花東地區其實具備了很多條件那第一個是運動人才的基礎深厚那尤其是原住民族的選手的比例非常高但是常常都人才在這個花東可是常常都因為這個現狀的這個狀況那流落到他鄉那第二個部分是自然環境也非常適合的水域運動跟戶外的這個運動"},{"start":11221.118,"end":11244.344,"text":"那也具備了發展運動觀光跟區域產業的一個潛力但是目前問題就如同剛才本席講的人才在花東資源在西部場地在地方人才也在地方可是產業鏈卻沒有在地形成那所以本席這邊請教百利基金有沒有納入區域平衡作為政策目標第二個部分是是不是會設計專門對花東或偏鄉地區的投資機制確保資源能夠進入東部並且深耕發展"},{"start":11250.546,"end":11267.056,"text":"最後在部會的整 跨部會的整合上運動部國發會是不是已經跟交通部觀光單位還有地方政府建立一個合作的模式來結合觀光交通跟在地的一個產業而不是單一部會的一個各自推動可不可以很簡單的做一個回應 謝謝這個部分我們會會協調各部會然後然後做一個平台來討論這件事情"},{"start":11275.922,"end":11298.913,"text":"好的那謝謝那請後續我們就對再更積極的我想到林委員辦公室再做比較具體的一些針對區域的一個資金的這個投入謝謝謝謝林田紀委員部長先回座來胡孟凱胡孟凱胡孟凱不在吳立華吳立華吳立華不在葉元智葉元智葉元智不在庄樂雄庄樂雄庄樂雄不在來"},{"start":11300.663,"end":11319.401,"text":"登記發言委員除補償之外 區議員發言完畢 訓談結束由委員莊育雄 莊家俊 鎖定宿命執行連日記錄 看通通通報宿命執行及未及待務部分請相關單據一週之內以宿命待務並附資本會委員另邀請期間者重新鎖定本日鎖定一程處理完畢大家辛苦了 謝謝大家 先休息"},{"start":11342.585,"end":11344.568,"text":"還要做到實踐才會知道要不要"}]}},{"id":"168564","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168564","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ec77822e2e6eae32cc41cfe75393b8f61f404ecbec9cddcf584cb79d4e231780c48c7cb505eef785ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","委員發言時間":"11:07:22 - 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那很多人競選程度也都沒做到啊賴清德總統很多競選程度也都沒做到啊我們台灣也都是這樣子啊那洪都拉斯他們也是自己國家自己民情我也不一定就是說我們從我們國家的現實主義的利益來說我們也不可能就是說全然相信別人跟我們講的就一定是真的吧如果總是要這麼天真的話那我們的外交該怎麼樣前進呢"},{"start":186.098,"end":214.316,"text":"是我是說我們有沒有評估說他們今天的這些說法有可能是托詞如果你認為不是托詞的話那你的理由跟依據又是什麼沒有那個我們持續有在雙方互動溝通啦同時我們還有很多的其他的這個國家也在協助我們能夠這個往這個台紅復交很多國家是像什麼樣的國家比如我們的重要的友邦這個美國他們在整個的國家戰略裡面提到他們的所謂的西半球的這個優先"},{"start":215.737,"end":235.392,"text":"但是事情上面是說我們在很多的時候跟這個美國有良好的互動溝通那我們也看到是說這個紅國的這個主要的政治領導人當他們有機會跟美國接觸的時候那他們現在跟中國大陸的這個交往是如何的是有暫停掉了還是說其實實際上還是交往非常密切"},{"start":236.252,"end":250.44,"text":"雙學費兩岸之間都我請一下我們的這個韓司長稍微細節上面再跟委員報告一下簡單說明一下好不好因為我後面還有問題他是駐中國的大使1月26號跟前政府就一起辭職了"},{"start":251.34,"end":277.2,"text":"到現在還沒有任命大使所以現在目前沒有任命大使好那我了解了那我們也對這個事情是有期待的那希望呢當然對方有要謹慎的地方我們都可以理解但是希望我們能夠恢復一個邦交國這對中華民國來說是相當重要的那為什麼我剛剛會講到就是說我們對於其他國家的說法必須要很謹慎而且要做多方面的考量主要跟像我們像是CPTPP也是一樣的"},{"start":278.121,"end":301.376,"text":"我們都知道政府在對外宣示爭取加入CPTPP這件事情實際上在執行層次上面是消極是敷衍的也沒有具體的時程跟規劃所以說其實我們看到3月的時候卓榮泰院長他講到就是說針對CPTPP要重新盤點然後設定目標跟時間表要由經濟部跟外交部來分工推進"},{"start":302.176,"end":308.982,"text":"可是從那時候到現在請問一下我們有沒有檢討一下那到底要怎麼樣去改進啊"},{"start":310.281,"end":320.884,"text":"報告委員在CPTPP上面我去年因為擔任相關的主管業務我也拜訪了好幾個國家遊說我們的陸會案的確國際有一些現實以我們現在的經貿大國來說我也希望能夠塑造一個有我的氣氛那我請問一下為什麼你看起來很積極那為什麼我們的經貿當初的談判我們就不談特別的名字了"},{"start":339.87,"end":366.576,"text":"那就是說有參與到這個事情裡面的同仁他們認為說是非常消極的他的說法看起來跟你是差異很大這個我們尊重當事人的感覺啦但就外交部來說全力以赴我去了拜訪了英國 拜訪了澳洲 拜訪了加拿大英國是新加入的我除了傳達我們要加入的這個意願那同時也跟他討論說到底我們遇到的困難在哪裡"},{"start":367.316,"end":381.207,"text":"我們也希望從英國那邊學到是說怎麼樣是能夠加入他準備哪一些的你跟他學沒有用啊我們這個狀況差很多啊去年部長在這個委員會我就問過他那時候部長他講到說我們已經跟12個會員國裡面的其中一個會員國進行實質的討論那請問目前有增加嗎"},{"start":390.254,"end":411.584,"text":"實質討論喔 不是說是拜會實質討論要讓人家讓我們推進到CPTPP的部分從去年11月的時候林佳龍部長他講說是一個那到現在請問增加到幾個人呢?那麼就具體的數字喔 我想是說我們還是在努力之中啦對 那當初林佳龍部長可以告訴我是一個那現在為什麼不能講啊?"},{"start":412.654,"end":437.701,"text":"現在沒有不能講,其實還是一個的意思因為去年的時候是澳洲擔任主席,所以我特別去澳洲一趟但是去年很可惜的,我們有提出入會的一個方法的新的訴求包括說能夠成立,優先成立這個工作小組部長都有跟我說,沒有得到正面的回應"},{"start":439.501,"end":461.228,"text":"現在狀況也是說CPTPP每次換一個輪值的主席國的時候呢我們都會覺得我們有突破的機會那都有機會讓這個CPTPP的部長會議推動成立剛剛您說的台灣的入會小組可是呢如果沒有成立成功的話那就又變成是好那這個有現實上面的考量的壓力等等的那今年我們預計的進展是什麼"},{"start":462.768,"end":485.499,"text":"那今年的主席國是輪到了這個越南嘛那我們跟越南有相當密切的商貿的關係啦我們希望在這個基礎上面那麼能夠雙方有好的一個對話你們不能每年都這樣講因為你們每年都告訴我們說我們今年跟澳洲也很好我們去年跟澳洲也很好我們今年跟越南也很好可是最後一整年下來是徒勞無功的那當然就會有這個"},{"start":488.1,"end":504.565,"text":"這個經貿這邊辦公室的人他們覺得說好像是很無所作為等等但是他的說法我尊重他的評論但我的意思是說今年是越南好來輪值所以可不可以給我一個很具體的目標我們今年大概要做什麼方向是什麼時程是什麼預計能夠達到什麼樣的一個目標把這個部分我們簡要的做一個說明好嗎"},{"start":509.667,"end":538.099,"text":"好 很快的說明就是說我們現在還是一樣跟一樣延續去年我們希望採取一個陸會申請的新的方式那去年是我們第一次提出來對 但你第一次提出來的時候你去年有跟越南就是因為越南它還是這個會員國嘛你們有跟越南討論過嗎就在它還不是輪值主席國的時候所有的對外管束我們都有對 那我的意思是說你去年雖然它不是輪值主席國但你有跟他們交換過這樣的意見的時候對方對於這件事情的支持程度是如何的"},{"start":538.319,"end":561.792,"text":"我想他們都是在重申奧克蘭三原則,包括有良好的紀錄,有好的高品質。那今年你繼續講今年。今年的話我們就是在這個推動上面,我們希望這個陸會的現在就是說,在沒有人反對,而不是說已經大家都同意,沒有人反對的情況下,對於這些陸會申請國是不是就能夠開始成立一個陸會工作小組,這不是已經陸會了。"},{"start":563.453,"end":590.249,"text":"這個我都知道你剛剛講過因為我們時間很有限那你可不可以告訴我說這個爭取那大概會在什麼時候有眉目或是確認說今年可能沒機會我不能說今年沒有機會啦我說時程點因為你總是會有節點吧很多樣的事情是會有節點啊所以你不能定到你說年底召開年底之前的時候我們就會全力以赴那麼對於越南對於這個其他的國家我們進行遊說"},{"start":591.63,"end":616.306,"text":"那尤其是對新加入的這些國家,包括英國,包括加拿大加拿大不是最近加入,但是說這些國家有我的國家,我們會盡力盡力我最少是說,這個入會過程的這個方法是不是能夠大家同意就是在沒有會員國明確反應,反對,而且提出反對的理由的時候那麼以他們都說要再繼續"},{"start":617.647,"end":638.966,"text":"擴張CPTPP爭取更多的會員國在這個前提之下至少能夠讓我們成立陸會工作小組戰略算不上其實我都同意我也很支持因為從去年11月說有跟一個國家討論到現在那其實是一樣的所以我想要問一下就是說你們大概在今年度因為現在也已經四月了快要到下半年了"},{"start":639.446,"end":659.049,"text":"你們有什麼時候要進入到跟第二個國家進行到實質的討論我很實際我這個人很現實主義的很實際跟你討論就第二個就好了什麼時候可以進到跟第二個國家進行到實質的磋商啊那我再跟委員報告說我們全力以赴啦但是我們希望有像您所說的第二個國家有一個比較正式的"},{"start":660.39,"end":687.579,"text":"方向跟大概知道說我希望爭取哪一個做我第二個實質的國家的談判呢如果你都說大海撈針的那到年底了我要問你一樣的明年我要問你一樣的那這不就永遠遙遙無期了嗎明年一定有不一樣的做但是說就今年在爭取新的國家來支持我們喔那麼我們覺得當然說也就是這幾個國家明年不好就是說來區變喔但我們就所有的門我們都會敲那請你們繼續努力謝謝謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"168563","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168563","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ec77822e2e6eae3166ce6beda4711e1ba64134b0f452f2ef584cb79d4e2317862af07d6823bbab05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐富癸","委員發言時間":"11:04:08 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邀請我們陳部長請陳部長綿陽局何局長請何局長觀光署黃副署長黃副署長你好是 部長"},{"start":20.569,"end":42.604,"text":"部長,我看了一下新聞,您昨天有到中部,也幫我們交通部來行銷,跟著馬祖走了一段路我們的氣象軍會痛嗎?很熱,流很多汗,但不會累我想應該馬祖會給你無比的一個力量,讓你面對這樣的一個狀況"},{"start":47.037,"end":67.655,"text":"部長,我想最近大家一直在討論,隨著中東地緣局勢的影響當然國際的航空燃油價格大幅的波動民進黨局最近也發布了一個消息,針對短期航線燃油附加費從每人7.5美元,調漲為45美元,長程的調幅更恐怖"},{"start":71.938,"end":89.725,"text":"從每人45.5調漲為117美元漲幅高達157%那不少的航空公司也跟著調漲了這個定位的服務費我想針對這樣的一個機票的一個調整當然這個有兩極化的一個看法有人會說出國的人數會受到影響"},{"start":93.706,"end":118.044,"text":"那國旅的部分也會受到一個刺激會成長那部長個人的看法像委員報告我們國旅其實在這兩三年都穩定的在成長當中包含前一陣子我們看到墾丁的這個台灣季的部分也是人山人海那甚至是道路上面我們輸運的壓力也相當的大所以看得出來其實最近幾次的連假國旅的訂房率其實都相當的高"},{"start":118.644,"end":133.585,"text":"那在交通的運輸的層面我們也是旅創新高啦所以國旅在這幾年都穩定的在上升那確實最近因為油價的這個推升啦會讓這個國際的旅遊來說的話成本會提高那我相信也會有一些國人就會選擇在國內旅行"},{"start":135.407,"end":150.887,"text":"因為畢竟國際的航空的油價提高之後整個票價提升他們出國民眾出國的成本也就提高了那民眾大家會去算現在油價整個高漲的狀況底下生活上的經費是不是留在台灣來遊玩會更有效率"},{"start":152.13,"end":168.873,"text":"部長那當然因為現在受到這個美伊戰爭的這個衝擊那到底這個戰爭什麼時候會結束 沒人知道那所以我們目前這個調整的一個方案是屬於一個短期的還是會怎麼樣的滾動解套我想這也是很多國人的一個關心的一個議題"},{"start":170.282,"end":194.237,"text":"是 報告委員這個油價我們要看它整體的變化那我們今天一直在報告的內容就是說針對公共運輸的部分我們除了提到今年底的整體的支應的預算之外我們也有提到明年的整體的預算所以至少我們的估算跟協助會到明年的116年的年底那這個部分我們正在做整體的估算但是要看行政院這邊它的整體規劃是什麼樣子"},{"start":195.748,"end":212.725,"text":"部長回過頭來我們還是要講到一個重點總預算的問題跟財化法的問題我想一樣屏東縣現在目前許多的中大交通建設我們都希望能夠加快來進行剛剛我聽到台中的黃金陽委員說台中現在有幾十條捷運我們羨慕的不得了我們現在連屏東連第一條都還沒有來"},{"start":218.615,"end":228.111,"text":"我想這樣子的一個城鄉差距我認為行政院跟交通部真的應該要去加快速度把一些溜突跟廢溜突的差距應該要來"},{"start":229.795,"end":230.355,"text":"努力一下啦"},{"start":260.676,"end":282.195,"text":"部長這個對於我們整個國旅市場您的自己的評估是正面的還是一個毒藥像委員報告您在說正面跟毒藥就是我早上在媒體朋友在問我的時候我有說過那時常都說他們遞出感染汁但是中國是比較特殊的國家時常會把感染汁當作棍子在使用那這個是我們非常擔心的"},{"start":282.535,"end":308.748,"text":"那這幾年其實整個國家的發展我們在觀光業的部分已經朝向多元市場的發展那這三四年裡面我們觀光的這個國際旅客的人數也不斷在成長當中速度也不算慢一年都有上百萬甚至幾十萬的成長那我會覺得台灣往多元市場發展是相對健康的因為我還是要再強調一次因為對岸在開心的時候遞出來的叫做橄欖枝"},{"start":309.708,"end":329.313,"text":"當他不開心的時候那這橄欖枝他會當棍子來使用那對於我們整體的國家的觀光業的發展不是一個健康的方向那不過我們還是歡迎中國的旅客到台灣不過中國提出的政治限制實在是好多因為一方面我們看到他現在說開放福建跟上海"},{"start":329.773,"end":350.542,"text":"那表示什麼表示除了福建跟上海其他的地方的他們中國的人民自由行是被限制的也就是說他們的政治上面的前提相當的多他們沒有全面性的一個開放嘛是那所以如果說福建跟上海叫做善意那其他完全沒開放的那十分之九是不是叫做惡意我覺得這個是我們應該要評估一下"},{"start":350.922,"end":379.701,"text":"部長這個我還是要提醒你我想這個未來面對這樣的一個兩岸情勢的一個變化變化萬千那尤其到底這個對岸到目前為止對我們還是非常的不友善那個飛鏈機不是我們一般的飛鏈機啦這個軍機啦軍艦比較誰來誰會我認為這個對我們來講都是要列入一個到時候邊境的一個管制人中的一個考量部長我想我們省省面對好那兩位請回謝謝"},{"start":381.531,"end":400.445,"text":"部長那我想前幾天我們也有特別提到這個退伍會旗下新興跟大南客運的電動公車有紅色供應鏈的一個問題那我這邊也要特別點到我們陶基陶基部長目前陶基第三航廈的進度做到哪裡了"},{"start":402.712,"end":417.128,"text":"細部設計正在進行當中已經到了細部設計進行那你們有察覺到我們的創意能源他們參與的標案裡面也有針對這樣的一個電動公車有一個大陸的紅色工業的問題嗎部長有注意到嗎"},{"start":419.21,"end":437.131,"text":"委員報告我們契約裡面其實都寫得相當清楚禁止使用中國的資通訊的產品那未來我們也會嚴格的來審核跟審查檢視它裡面到底有沒有中國的資通訊產品如果有的話就代表沒有依據我們的合約在走我們會不讓這件事情發生"},{"start":438.032,"end":459.413,"text":"部長我想這個陶基嘛 范總總經理你們的審查過程裡面有沒有問題你們說這個晶片是台灣製造但是而且有第三方的背書但是先被發現這個晶片確實是中國產製的你們有發現這個狀況嗎跟委員報告跟委員報告我們目前的旅客運輸系統"},{"start":461.795,"end":486.049,"text":"現階段的作業是在細部設計當中還沒有進入到執行所以委員提示的這個問題我們上週也得到這個訊息我們在上週五除了部長已經剛剛提到契約本身就有規定以外上週五再特別發函要求廠商確實依照契約的規範來執行我們也要求我們的顧問跟監照要確實把關來嚴格審查"},{"start":490.069,"end":503.828,"text":"我想第三行下是這個很多國人的一個期待也是陶磯也是我們的門面啦 官方的門面部長 我想交通部也應該要負起這個責任是 不能放好陶磯在澳北部啦我是覺得這樣啦好 我們應該嚴格來解釋這個問題嚴格把關 不會讓這樣的事情發生"},{"start":507.113,"end":531.557,"text":"好 那我想最後一個問題我還是要特別提到這個要請部長幫忙上個禮拜我特別針對這個機車考照的部分有邀集我們交通部相關的同仁來開會討論那果不其然引起了這個全國很多縣市相親的一個熱議的一個熱烈的一個討論那我想剛剛包含我們許多委員也有提到部長確實現在這個要上網登錄這個機車考照"},{"start":536.678,"end":558.088,"text":"比搶演唱會的門票還困難報告委員您有跟我提示過這件事啦那我也有關注到說確實我們在這兩年的這個提供的名額有下降那委員跟我提醒完之後我們有請這個公路局來做這方面的研議我們目前的規劃是每一天要增加10%左右的這個報名的名額這是第一點"},{"start":558.928,"end":577.1,"text":"那第二點針對尤其是屏東確實我們有看到有一些區域他的這個可以報名跟考試的這個額度確實是落差蠻大的尤其是在屏東的部分那我們公路局這邊有做出一個計畫針對屏東的部分看怎麼樣協助讓他這個報考的名額可以提升那第三點就是針對過去在"},{"start":579.421,"end":597.046,"text":"預約報考的過程當中確實有一些缺考的一個狀況就是說實際有倒考的只有75%那我們也做過檢討在1月份有做過檢討到現在已經把倒考率提升到97%也就是說浪費的名額也減少所以這三個方向我們希望能夠解決民眾所關心的這個議題考照的一套"},{"start":597.426,"end":609.912,"text":"部長那我想我也有特別提出當天有特別提出這三項的一個要求那我想我也希望我們交通部從善如流第一個增加每日機車考照的名額上限因為我們目前屏東有33個鄉鎮"},{"start":612.455,"end":633.073,"text":"有山地、有原住民地區、有平地、也有離島目前只有恆春跟屏東兩個考照一個禮拜不到300個名額你給這個中培是多少年紀他怎麼辦他不可能總是無照上路啊我們不可能叫他違規啊但是因為沒辦法趕快去考照所以我認為這要加快速度第二個針對這個監禮站當然"},{"start":634.915,"end":655.849,"text":"有些人會講說我們有一些民間的教訓場也可以考但問題是對很多鄉親來講他們還是信賴我們的建立這樣的一個考照系統所以能不能強化你們那個預約系統的增加後補預約功能那這一點那天我有跟你們同仁討論我們要主動積極一點啊不能說人不來客這個命令浪費掉我認為這個是不負責任的做法"},{"start":657.87,"end":679.6,"text":"你這個A不能考你總是在通知B通知C嘛把硬考慮可以再提高一點嘛要把名額浪費掉沒錯那第三個在還沒有整個增加名額能夠大幅提升的狀況之下能不能增加下鄉考照的一個頻率有些鄉鎮已經有在run了嘛部長這部分能不能再增加能不能給我們一個正面的答覆"},{"start":681.172,"end":704.306,"text":"報告委員 下鄉的部分我們會來規劃 尤其我剛剛有提到 屏東的部分確實落差蠻大的所以我們針對屏東的部分會來特別做處理跟協助那天我開完協調會之後 我們的鄉親公號他們光是做 因為沒有要去考照 早上5點要出門 來到屏東營考你看 因為距離很遠對 沒有錯 部長 要麻煩你正視這個問題一下好 謝謝 謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"168569","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168569","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ec77822e2e6eae394be2fb64b46696761f404ecbec9cddcf584cb79d4e231780be9ff9e72e124835ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"馬文君","委員發言時間":"11:19:04 - 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謹慎每天每週的去往後推演我們未來可能的一個情境然後做最好的一個準備"},{"start":315.39,"end":332.438,"text":"因為你看起來的準備我們不曉得因為你現在的來源比如說像天然氣像石油你們當然有一些其他的替代的來源果可是它如果持續增加因為所有的它都上漲了甚至高達4成以上雖然你現在用動漲或緩漲的手段在壓制可是它在市場國際市場上它已經漲了4成那像這樣子你以後如果要從別的國家去跟人家"},{"start":342.743,"end":345.804,"text":"就像你現在有一些物資如果缺了為什麼人家會搶很多在搶物資的時候他的那個就水漲船高我們現在擔心的是這些啊當你七月八月九月十月甚至到明年的時候你要跟其他國家採購你會面臨更高的價格這個部分你們都做了妥善的因應了嗎"},{"start":362.969,"end":366.61,"text":"如果你們有掌握那表示你們有規劃那這具體的規劃在會後我們希望在一個禮拜之內把這個相關的規劃提供給我們委員會來做參考"},{"start":378.154,"end":381.977,"text":"是 可是剛剛委員報因為這個規劃都是動態來調整的所以我們會根據委員指定的日期我們提供最新的狀況不過這個狀況因為它可能瞬息萬變所以跟委員報是可是指定的日期沒有關係我們現在就是說因為你有短中長期像俄羅斯戰爭一打打了好幾年"},{"start":397.068,"end":401.989,"text":"到四年了你都還停不下來那它我們如果萬一面臨到這個封鎖它拉長時間對我們會什麼樣的影響那你對其他國家採購的時候會面臨什麼樣的影響包括我們的航運還有包括我們的海運包括我們所有的運輸其實在在都會影響這些對我們經濟整體的衝擊我們要的是具體的規劃跟你在能源上面如果產生這樣的空隙的時候你們怎麼做我們要的是這樣子的一個規劃報告"},{"start":426.894,"end":444.887,"text":"我們就提供給委員目前我們最新穩定能源供應的一個方案好那就這些部分我們希望可以儘速提供因為經濟部因為剛剛我們先請教一下那個外交部市長剛剛有委員提到這一次在野黨"},{"start":446.488,"end":449.011,"text":"國民黨的主席這一次的正席會剛剛你有提到說在野黨應該不要去製造像有一些在政治上或者國際其他國家對我們有產生誤解你所謂的誤解是什麼"},{"start":464.209,"end":480.83,"text":"沒有 我是說最重要的東西這個事實就是說中華民國台灣跟中華人民共和國互不隸屬這個事實我希望這個是政協會的時候有誤導什麼嗎沒有 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倒的倒很多的經濟現在變得很蕭條我們要的是政府能夠開出一條路不管你是哪一條路我們也支持CPTPP啊我們也支持新南向啊我們也支持你跟美國談最好的關稅的配合啊"},{"start":631.602,"end":635.727,"text":"可是我們不是我們付出了那麼多還包括國防的預算都被框進經濟的談判裡面是非常離譜的這才叫貴所以如果我們有肩膀如果我們要維持我們的風骨維持我們一個主權國家的一個"},{"start":649.588,"end":653.391,"text":"最好的一個表達就是在任何時候我們都必須要很大聲的去捍衛我們國家的利益還有人民的利益這個才是我們要做的所以我們希望外交部或者甚至像經濟部如果相關的影響要比較具體的讓我們知道外交部不要把自己的立場做小了"},{"start":668.343,"end":673.829,"text":"外交部其實面對的是全世界的各國不是只有邦交國我們現在所有包括澳洲總理因為這一次的美伊戰爭他跑了很多的國家他去拜訪日本、新加坡、汶萊、馬來西亞他要求大家一起跟他合作唯獨沒有找過台灣"},{"start":687.722,"end":691.503,"text":"我們從這一次的戰爭我們可以看到其實台灣是被孤立的如果繼續這樣下去這個是我們比較擔憂的所以我們希望外交部要拿出你們的國際視野怎麼樣在務實面上面去開拓我們自己的道路包括兩岸的關係兩岸的關係對我們來說非常重要連歐洲現在所有領導人你們應該有掌握訊息啊有哪些國家去見習近平你們應該非常清楚啊"},{"start":716.209,"end":720.814,"text":"包括歐洲國家為什麼以前跟美國這麼友好他們現在為什麼紛紛跑去包括美國總統川普他都一直要見習近平為什麼我們不可以為什麼我們做不到為什麼我們不要他如果對我們好對我們的和平是有是有幫助的為什麼我們要捨棄這一條路所以這一條"},{"start":737.733,"end":749.413,"text":"今天我們的報告其實我們並不是很滿意我們所有相關單位所提出的內容那我們也希望在後面應該補充的迅速補充資料好不好是好 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謝謝我們主席翁昭瑋本席今天要針對這個人權的一個評估還有調查公正性最後再針對這個公務倫理的部分來做一些詢答所以我先請我們監察院的黃秘書長跟我們人權委員會的應該今天出席的周植密"},{"start":28.32,"end":29.742,"text":"外籍家庭芳庸新制人權影響評估"},{"start":43.66,"end":66.736,"text":"在這個禮拜一 也就是4月13號這個時候行政院已經決定來針對這個外籍幫傭新制的一個上路但是包含了34個民間團體還有監察院的人權委員會本身都也公開的提出一些疑慮那麼也針對這個我們還未完成完整的一個性別跟人權影響評估之前就已經推動"},{"start":67.917,"end":92.407,"text":"這次序上是有一點點爭議的所以本席也認為制度運作要符合人權保障的一個基本要求是很重要的但對於性別族群的這個影響評估也不能說事後才補上所以更大規模的現在我們要引進的這個移工尤其是現在最近大家這個議題非常討論的非常多的這個有關印度移工但是整體的這個移工的這個部分"},{"start":93.067,"end":109.154,"text":"是勞動部的一個政策方向那本席在先前也有跟勞動部這邊針對他的移工還有援助民族勞工的一個勞權影響有沒有一些完整的評估也就是移工然後還有援助民族的這個勞工"},{"start":110.675,"end":128.669,"text":"那這樣一個結構性的改變有沒有一些衝擊本席這邊有要求做一些評估但是這個答案目前也是很模糊所以本席想要在人權跟這個人權會這邊有做一些討論你們理解這個意思嗎就是說你們現在有移工可是這個移工對整個社會的結構還有勞工的這個整體的這個系統會產生一些衝擊"},{"start":136.034,"end":163.301,"text":"那這個本席在其他委員會也問過了那這個部分也提醒你們做一些注意啦所以本席認為這個新制會影響到三個層面第一個是本國的這個基層女性勞動者的一個工作權那第二個部分是外籍家事移工長期處於勞基法之外的一個勞動條件那麼第三個部分是兒童照顧的品質跟家庭責任的分配那這個是本席剛才講的這個背景會影響的一些問題"},{"start":164.341,"end":193.084,"text":"那這些都是很敏感而且跟人權議題交織在一起的所以目前的情況是行政院已經決定上路了但是完整的人權跟性別的影響評估報告卻要後續的性評會才會提出來那這樣時序是不是有點政策先行然後評估在後所以本席要請教的尤其是人權會那人權會對於這樣政策的推動程序是不是認為符合人權治理的一個基本原則呢"},{"start":193.985,"end":216.762,"text":"那第二個部分是在面對行政權已經決定上路了那人權會未來要怎麼跟行政院來進行有建設性的一個制度對話那麼是不是會建立一些固定的政策人權審查的機制而不是被動的做一些回應那第三個部分是針對外界目前關注的這個移工人權跟對我國勞工的影響剛才本席也舉例了"},{"start":217.242,"end":244.539,"text":"例如長工時或者是缺乏勞基法的一個保障那麼工作的內容可能也會擴張到這個照顧跟育兒或排擠我國勞工剛才本集這邊已經談到了那外籍移工對原住民族勞工的一個衝擊影響那人權會是不是會提出一些具體的監督指標或追蹤的機制來確保政策上路之後不會擴大既有的問題"},{"start":246.929,"end":270.222,"text":"回應委員的質詢 剛才您提到的這幾個問題包括人權治理、建立機制跟移工的人權對本勞尤其是原住民勞工的影響我們國家人權委員會都做了很多的對外的聲明我是不是請我國家人權委員會執行秘書詳細的跟您說執秘這邊是不是可以精準的簡單做一個回應"},{"start":270.882,"end":291.488,"text":"好謝謝委員關切這個議題這個議題也是我們非常關切的幾個項目那先就剛剛您提到的就是有關4月13日要上路的這個外籍幫傭的這個新制那我們非常贊成委員所提到的因為我們的意見書裡面也是提到說這個新制第一個就是會衝擊到基層女性包括保姆還有教保人員"},{"start":292.148,"end":313.099,"text":"他們的一個工作權益那第二就是說它其實會涉及到家庭類型的移工因為過去我們已經有在相關的專案調查報告裡面提到說目前的家事移工他因為沒有適用到勞基法所以他的一些保障上面其實是有問題而且監督上是有困難的那這個都是在我們的家事移工這個專案調查報告裡面都已經有提到"},{"start":313.739,"end":335.795,"text":"第三個就是說 針對沒有辦法落實而少權益的這個保障這部分我們也非常關切所以其實我們在聲明裡面一開始我們就提到說在這個新制推行之前其實是應該要先做人權還有性別的影響評估所以它現在已經產生這樣子 已經政策先行了所以後續你們要怎麼去處理跟因應呢"},{"start":337.236,"end":352.133,"text":"謝謝 對 那後續我們大概會朝兩個方向那第一個就是說就我們自己的部分我們會持續的監督那當然有必要的時候我們會一直跟行政機關去做一些了解那相關的內容我們也會放在接下來的公約審查裡面的一些獨立評估意見裡面"},{"start":353.294,"end":381.973,"text":"那第二就是說其實照國際上面就是針對因為本來人權會它的職責角色它擁有的權利就是建議權不像監察院是有一個比較強制的這個背後的這個彈劾糾正這些權利那我們主要有的是糾正權但是大部分的國家的國家人權機構他們會跟國會合作那這也是所謂的貝爾格勒原則裡面的一個核心所以我們其實也很盼望日後跟國會建立一些平台跟交流的管道"},{"start":382.333,"end":398.963,"text":"那針對這一類的政策上的議題可以互相有一些合作然後跟一些相關後續的一些推進的一些力量本席對這個部分非常的關注因為現在已經看起來政策先行了然後如果你們只有建議權那我們又如何跟監察院的這個糾正權能夠做一些比較緊密的連結"},{"start":402.725,"end":424.607,"text":"那當然如果跟立法院之間我們當然一定會是一直來追後續在這個權益的保障上在目前的這樣一個限制下後續的一個執行方向那這可能要我們各方都非常密切而且相對主動的像剛剛翁委員這邊講就是說監察院你可能在針對某一些權益的這個部分那如何主動的因為你們是具有相關的這個糾察權嘛"},{"start":426.249,"end":452.581,"text":"那如何主動的來做那這樣一個調查報告已經提供給我們一些相關的這個資訊所以我想後續你們怎麼樣你剛才講的兩點嘛那監督的這個部分如何再更具體然後再更積極那這個有關於你建議跟糾察還有跟立法院這邊的一個合作可以怎麼樣具體的來做來補足目前政策已經先行的結果評估還沒有"},{"start":453.141,"end":467.747,"text":"很具體的狀況針對委員提到說是不是監察院這邊可不可以有糾正等這些那跟您報告國家人權會的委員他也升監察委員所以可能這個部分"},{"start":469.048,"end":497.104,"text":"他們會獨立的去判斷如果說要進入到監察院的整個的調查啦整個程序他們會進入對 因為目前就已經是政策先行了所以大家其實非常關注目前還沒有處理本來應該先評估可是沒有處理的這個部分那在後續我們不希望執行上碰到問題然後又很難去處理或者是已經後續沒有辦法在處理的一個狀況上然後我們又再做一些只是一直補正"},{"start":497.924,"end":522.221,"text":"然後就會影響到人民的一個信任所以如果正好是這樣一個角色那可能相關的這個委員就要負起一個比較更積極的一個責任但是很重要一點 本席這邊還是要再提醒那有關於外籍移工衝擊到原住民族勞動的這個部分我覺得監察院還有人權委員會要把它當成是一件主要的事情來做處理"},{"start":523.522,"end":549.654,"text":"所以這個結構性的改變勢必會有衝擊那你可能為了接下來本席要談的是另外一個議題那這個就會變成跟你可能針對比如說我們剛才講外籍移工那可能有產業的需求可是對於本土原本在我們的勞動市場裡面的一個衝擊我覺得在過去的一個這幾年的一個狀況上我們有看到其實有點準備不足就針對某一個面向的一個立場來做"},{"start":551.595,"end":579.256,"text":"規劃跟處理結果後來其實影響到本土的或是本地的這個勞動權其實影響到很大本期接下來的就是要講不過我再先補充一下啦也就是說人權會的角色那我們最好不要都是只做事後的一個檢討而是應該在制度上確保重大政策在形成的過程當中人權會的角就已經納入人權的視角所以都不要都是這個背後亡羊補牢那麼"},{"start":580.217,"end":594.29,"text":"本席這邊還是要對行政權這邊做一些這個批判啦行政權如果都可以在憑供沒有完全完成的一個情況下就進行那人權會又缺乏有效的介入機制那麼人權的保障就會變成"},{"start":595.171,"end":622.29,"text":"留於形式這點本席要請監察院更積極的一點來面對跟處理好那本席剛才講到的其實這個外籍移工對勞動市場的這個不是太全面的一個評估其實基本上可能都在產業面本席接下來要談的一個議題就是光電政策調查的公正性跟監察角色偏移的問題那這個跟本席剛才講的我們或許有對外籍移工的需求但是呢對本"},{"start":623.19,"end":652.19,"text":"這個本土的衝擊其實沒有每一個面向都考慮到這個有關這個你們監察院目前發布的一個光電調查報告這個報告的起點是外商業者來反映台灣投資環境的惡化但報告的內容引用的很多都是業界的意見甚至引入了你們最後還建議說要鬆綁農地然後要調整漁電共生的制度然後要喊請行政院還要監督各部會的一個檢討"},{"start":653.07,"end":680.264,"text":"但是報告一出來社會其實質疑這份報告聽的這個聲音其實太單方面了本席請教那麼監察院在這次的調查過程當中是否同樣的納入相當程度的數量的農民養殖戶地方居民跟環保團體的一個實際經驗還是主要是因為業者陳情那就變成你們這個資料來源或者是相關的資訊來源的"},{"start":681.425,"end":697.791,"text":"主要的一個這個連結那目前從外部的一個觀察那這個光電報告將發展的困境都歸咎在行政效率不足那麼審查有點過於嚴格但是政策本身是不是有一些問題"},{"start":699.232,"end":713.673,"text":"實際的狀況上是地方的衝突不斷那麼原因呢也不是只有審查慢而是根本的有幾個問題本席這邊提出來也就是第一個農地破碎化還有農業環境惡化第二個部分是社區的參與不足"},{"start":714.474,"end":741.868,"text":"再來還有資訊不對等那還有開發過程當中利益分配失衡跟地方的不信任那麼光電開發呢過度以取得土地為優先忽略了環境跟社會成本那這是本席認為這樣子的狀況一直反覆發生的根本問題所以請教一下你是不是認同光電爭議的核心不只是行政程序而是國土利用跟產業發展之間有結構性的衝突"},{"start":744.269,"end":773.108,"text":"那麼未來你們可不可以再提出相關的報告就這個部分更深入的分析那第二個部分是對於農地農用這一個基本原則那報告當中引用了業界的數據主張的影響其實是有一些有限啦但是學界有指出相關的數據其實有一些爭議也就是你數據的引用其實導致了一些偏頗所以甚至有低估農地流失的情形你們有沒有進一步的查證最後更關鍵的是"},{"start":774.829,"end":803.122,"text":"監察院在本案當中你們到底是在協助政策加速與背書還是在監督政策是否偏離了公眾利益那這點是很重要所以本席剛才會跟你們提醒當產業有需求但是整體的評估或許沒有到那麼全面的時候它的某一些衝擊如果沒有調查報告來顯示那其實那個隱性的衝擊跟付出的社會成本我們時常是看不到的"},{"start":803.642,"end":819.385,"text":"所以是不是可以請您就這個部分做一些回應委員是這樣您提的範圍非常廣而且我們很多都有這個所謂的新聞稿或調查相關的內容對基本上就是一個全面性的問題也就是你不會我們會後用書面跟你回覆"},{"start":819.745,"end":834.932,"text":"對不對所以本席其實從剛才到現在連貫就是說一個系統性結構性的這個變動的時候那那個影響其實相對沒有那麼的全面那沒有那麼全面其實就會有一些群體"},{"start":835.992,"end":849.688,"text":"在這個過程當中利益被失衡了有些是喪失了某一些權益所以從本席講到的外籍移工對原住民勞動的一個影響那政策先行對於人權保障的這個議題"},{"start":850.749,"end":868.389,"text":"還有此次對光電業者他雖然有人提出來可是整體的評估沒有顧及到各個面向還有不同的群體這會讓人導致那監察院你是到底為了公眾利益那還是導致到最後集體偏移到去處理"},{"start":870.03,"end":896.366,"text":"這個產業需求的這個問題是好 所以這個部分是不是您是要會後再補給我們嗎會後把剛才所有的問題一次的跟您回應這樣子用順便相似的回答而且最後這個部分做一個整理就是你們的職責不應該只是為單一產業在排除投資障礙而是要釐清制度的問題那麼糾正政策是否偏差所以這個部分不要在這個調查過程當中就因為這個"},{"start":898.807,"end":920.975,"text":"訴求的人而導致了集體偏移這是本席要特別提醒的那最後一個問題當然本席還是呼應許多委員關心的也就是監察院公務車涉及的公務倫理的這個問題所以剛才本席也聽到您對前面的委員這邊的一些回應那麼這個公務車私用到後來牽結的這個部分我想社會"},{"start":921.835,"end":942.905,"text":"就比較難接受這樣一個結果那這個牽結的部分也不具圖利或被性主觀犯意為由來做了一個牽結那本席當然尊重法律的一個判斷但是希望不是又一次司法的雙標我想這是剛剛很多委員提出來的一個重點也就是一般民眾可能在觸及一些"},{"start":944.426,"end":961.019,"text":"可能對法律上不是很了解或者是人與人之間相處的這個問題的這一些過失的同時其實可能都被重罰但是真正掌握權力應該要自律的人反倒就因此"},{"start":962.119,"end":979.13,"text":"就被討之夭夭我想這個是大家關注的一個議題所以本席在這邊強調行政的牽結不等於行為這個符合行政倫理這是本席談的重點那更不符合監察院應有的用車標準那麼"},{"start":980.216,"end":995.643,"text":"秘書長 不好意思 監察院作為國家最高的一個監察機關那麼對外要求各機關要依法行政 人身自愛那你們是不是有更高的一個標準的要求那如果針對公務生使用的不是那麼恰當"},{"start":996.483,"end":1009.698,"text":"那很多往往面臨刑責行政懲處或者是失去職務但是呢此次的這樣一個監委涉及這個寵物送寵物美容但是卻以刑事牽結的這個部分然後院內剛才我聽起來好像還要後續要有人"},{"start":1015.885,"end":1042.206,"text":"再去做一些訴求你們才會再有這樣一個調查那本席請教檢察院是不是認為本案相關的這個用車行為有符合檢察院對公務倫理的一個標準那如果不符合你們對於目前紀律處置的一個回應是如何檢察官的簽結我們都是尊重但是在我們內部這次紀律委員會所做的所謂的這個他要求道歉這個"},{"start":1043.087,"end":1068.237,"text":"因為他要求道歉以外依照紀律規則下一個層次就是彈劾了那這已經是最高了那彈劾呢依照我們過去監察院處理公務車類似公務車全國公務人公務車有被彈劾的案件一般來講都是他有刑事訴追也就是他有刑事上比如說這個背信等等這些或是貪賭的狀況才會進入到彈劾那一般來講"},{"start":1071.638,"end":1091.49,"text":"如果只是沒有進入到刑事訴追的部分我們並不會進入到彈劾所以我們對於委員他的這個部分我們是全國一致的所有的公務人員有刑事訴追我們才會彈劾沒有的話我們就下一個層次那我們的紀律委員會的規範呢下一個層次就是要求道歉這樣子"},{"start":1092.928,"end":1116.759,"text":"所以針對這個事情你們未來有沒有強一些比較強化查核機制的一個我們已經把整個的公務車使用的規定全面的修正那這個修正其實就是比照大院所有公務車的管理相關的規範一模一樣以這樣的方式來進入未來的公務車的管理的改進這樣子"},{"start":1117.699,"end":1133.153,"text":"好 所以這件事情很重要就不是只有這個有關於這個法律的一個這個處理啦而是監察院本身的一個自我要求是 我們自我要求還有內部紀律的一個標準上那不要有雙標標準是全國一致的所有的公務員也是這樣的標準"},{"start":1134.974,"end":1159.81,"text":"彈劾的部分 只要進入到彈劾的話一定是背後有刑事訴追的 譬如說他有這個是你說彈劾的層次 但是最重要就是說整個監察院讓人民在信心上因為這些事情而有了一些動搖 所以應該你們是很重要的一個維護公益的一個單位 但是呢包括本席剛才所講的 那對於某一些這個"},{"start":1161.471,"end":1167.154,"text":"謝謝委員的指教希望監察院能夠在這個部分多加改善然後應該有一些具體施程所以我會把委員的建議帶回去謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168567","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168567","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ec77822e2e6eae3e478507f557b80ae354b0245b1feb432f584cb79d4e23178303090bacd9a8aae5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"11:20:07 - 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謝謝主席那接下來我們要邀請我們的運動部次長跟教育部的代副署長教育部代副署長你好謝謝"},{"start":21.087,"end":32.462,"text":"谢谢我想其实我看了很多今天的报告我们强调有很多的投资在赛事上面那我想要有赛事那选手到底在哪里"},{"start":33.373,"end":62.913,"text":"好不然你投資很多的賽事我們選手根本就沒有沒有選手要怎麼辦賽事呢所以我想討論的就是鰻魚基層的訓練我想從這個是教育部體育署之前每一年我們都會陸陸續續做很多的一些研究了解我們用量化的方式來研究那我們就發現說大概在國中跟高中端這一端其實我們只有三成的學生認為自己運動時間充足那相比日本或者是德國或者是美國我們的運動時間課堂上面的安排也是相對少的"},{"start":63.853,"end":85.388,"text":"所以我想那這是第一個問題那第二個問題是說他們也這是你們的調查就是說他們覺得現在的運動時間跟空間都完全不夠所以我想問一下我們如何從運動部要如何跟教育部一起來努力讓我們有更多的運動時間這是第一個那空間的部分也要如何的努力呢是不是可以先請次長先回答簡單的回答"},{"start":85.748,"end":112.817,"text":"好謝謝 謝謝委員的關心的確在學齡階段在體育課這個部分的業務目前的分工是在教育部那我們也知道在學生體育課上面因為他上面有一個課綱的一個限制他必須根據課綱來排課至於場地的部分處於專項運動特別是競技運動類的設施運動部則無旁貸但是一般教育類的體育課類的設施目前的分工是由教育部來組長"},{"start":113.677,"end":114.738,"text":"我想原來在課綱裡頭就有體育的課程"},{"start":128.677,"end":149.452,"text":"那教部會陸續督導就是各校能夠落實體育教學教學正常化體育課就避免被挪移這樣那另外的話其實就是學校其實還是有很多社團活動是體育社團那我國小端啦國中以後就沒有了啦國中還是很少啦而且他只有一堂社團課啦"},{"start":150.373,"end":164.474,"text":"這是你們調查報告嗎還是有一些團體活動或是彈性的活動的事件那有多少是拿來做運動的呢這應該非常少吧我想你們要不要更清楚的掌握現實的"},{"start":166.497,"end":191.295,"text":"因為我想不是只有這個調查包含我們的這個去年也有發布一個台灣學生的身體活動量級跟全球兒童健康聯盟的指標只有到F級只有我們大概是怎麼等級呢跟印尼菲律賓差不多我們輸給日本跟韓國所以如果在我們的基礎的選手基層沒有做起來選手從哪裡來賽事怎麼辦我覺得這是一個很大的問題然後再來就是回到抱歉我們再回到次長"},{"start":193.237,"end":220.545,"text":"我們其實也有一些 抱歉就是關於女性這個研究裡面其實也有了解說在女性在青少年的時候她們遇到什麼樣子的問題那她們基本上就是有講到一些成就感很低但是為什麼成就感很低 挫折很高這個我看不到質化的研究我看不到任何的質化研究我不曉得說運動部這邊有沒有做相關的質化去了解女性不管是學生也好或是運動員也好她們遇到的困境到底是什麼有沒有掌握"},{"start":220.945,"end":241.654,"text":"目前這方面的研究議題我個人是沒有掌握不過從我過去長時間在這個領域的觀察因為我們過去的發展是以技能學習運動技能學習為主要的內涵那對於一些平常沒有那麼在從事身體活動的特別是女生的學生他們會覺得沒有成就感"},{"start":242.074,"end":263.5,"text":"所以我們希望未來在這方面的發展是朝著從基本的能力而不是競技能力簡單來說好不好就是次長可不可以答應我一件事情就是我們去了解做質問的了解徹底的了解為什麼女性的女生學生也好還有運動員選手他們不願意持續的做這樣子的運動為什麼他們對於運動的參與度這麼低我們是不是可以來做這部分的了解"},{"start":264.08,"end":290.442,"text":"來瞭解他的障礙在哪裡第二個部分還有就是企業我剛剛也聽到企業有投資很多的運動賽事然後這個金額也是增加的但是我想知道到底有沒有投資在基層的訓練上面呢目前的數量以我們目前看到的其實還沒有很高這也是為什麼抱歉委員這也是為什麼我們在未來在計算假設他的贊助的金額跟那個捐贈的金額是往基層走他的計算的方式是百分之一百五十"},{"start":292.291,"end":319.177,"text":"但是我覺得有個實務面上的問題就是說這也是基層的軍運部告訴我的就是以FIFA來說他們的足球是要發展俱樂部的系統但日本也在2022年宣示了會從學校走向俱樂部可是他們要做俱樂部如果要去有這個主課場的時候他們要承租場地的時候遇到一個租約的一些相關的規範變成是說他們沒有辦法做長期的租但沒有辦法長期的租他就不可能去做更多的投資"},{"start":320.137,"end":338.02,"text":"對不對所以這個部分是不是可以來協調呢那另外一個還有就是廢校的一些場地是不是也可以跟教育部來協調如何讓企業可以進場因為企業是想要進場的這部分因為今天時間有限那我們是不是約時間來繼續來討論有關於如何讓企業來投資基層運動的這件事情可以嗎是的我們一起來討論好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168566","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168566","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ec77822e2e6eae3941fa08177f46a14354b0245b1feb432f584cb79d4e2317819ddf0aee35279f35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡春綢","委員發言時間":"11:14:19 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有請經濟次長還有運動部次長兩位次長好"},{"start":37.5,"end":41.162,"text":"運動部在成立之後運動產業就被視為我國未來運動發展的一個重要的一個資質之一那相較於歐盟日本還有英美等先進國家運動產業的一個占比GDP比重普遍可以達2%至2.6%的一個"},{"start":64.132,"end":70.116,"text":"那個成長 那台灣去年在台灣去年在1.31%的一個顯示 仍然有一個成長的一個空間那在過去五年 運動用品還有器材的製造及批發及零售業仍然是在支撐一個運動產業的一個經濟的一個火車頭剛剛我們有很多委員都有提到我們的自行車 我們的高爾夫球"},{"start":93.13,"end":97.173,"text":"球技還有我們的運動跑步機這都是我們打造我們台灣品牌的一個項目總感覺我們對於這樣比較重的一個工業我們是發展得很好但是感覺在輕服務還有數位這個部分的結構好像有一點失衡請兩位次長做一個分析"},{"start":121.593,"end":144.81,"text":"那這個產業部分是不是我先來做補充一下就是說剛剛委員提到的這個部分確實是最近許多的這些運動的科技的這些這種產品也開始有很大幅的這個出現在市場上結合AI的或是結合許多這個平台運動健康管理的平台的這些業者"},{"start":145.43,"end":164.088,"text":"那其實他們都是軟硬整合的這個部分來提供給這個消費者來運用那這也是我們現在其實台灣的強項我們怎麼樣能夠把這些半導體也好或是說我們的自動訊的這個產品能夠融入在這些包括不管是運動器材也好或是說我們的運動"},{"start":165.029,"end":185.049,"text":"管理或是健康促進的這些產品項目裡面來其實這個都是我們現在台灣的這個機會那我們現在許多的這些前瞻科技的這個研發的部分也是協助業界在投入這個部分所以這個產品的部分也在做一些數位轉型或是智慧化的這個開發的這個過程裡面"},{"start":189.694,"end":194.037,"text":"我知道我們這個軟體的部分我們當然在報告書裡面都有寫但是我們只有沒有看到產值產值有多少表示就是說我們沒有辦法把原發的東西能夠行銷出去"},{"start":210.17,"end":228.466,"text":"那我們希望就是說不只是在核銷補助的這個建位而已而是能夠把我們的產品像我們的硬體的部分能夠行銷到我們台灣或者是世界世界去這個是我們期待的再請問一下"},{"start":235.112,"end":237.554,"text":"國家運動產業發展中心運動部下設立的行政法人負責推動運動產業調查人才培育還有市場的一個拓展該中心也有專責跨部會合作以前影運動還有"},{"start":253.968,"end":279.522,"text":"賽會的一個福島產業刺激及跨域創新為四大核心的方向請問一下運動部代表說明一下跨部會情況是與哪些跨部會來做一個合作就跨部會的部分以運動結合像觀光旅遊跟交通部那第二個是剛談到的大健康跟衛福部再來是經濟部的製造的運動器材設備怎麼讓它服務化大概這三大方向"},{"start":282.3,"end":286.022,"text":"我們也希望未來我們能夠把運動觀光一併來做一個推出在這裡剛剛都沒有問到我們那個黃次長在這裡跟黃次長鼓勵一下因為我們運動部剛剛成立"},{"start":301.852,"end":326.992,"text":"目前應該是人力短缺三位次長兩位次長來做那我們希望我們運動部剛剛成立我們這個運動部的高牆一定要把它撐住在這裡也勉勵我們次長能夠還有我們運動部能夠加油為我們台灣的一個運動能夠開創一個新的一個局面謝謝委員的鼓勵我們一起努力謝謝好謝謝來來"},{"start":331.144,"end":336.851,"text":"好 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各位政府部門的官員大家好那有請那個衛福部長 石部長然後有請石耀淑的署長有請房間署的署長 謝謝邱委員早 署長早"},{"start":28.186,"end":38.977,"text":"那部長還有兩位署長我今天是想跟三位請教關於犬貓非經濟動物用藥的問題好那我們先從這張PPT開始看齊那我要細說從頭從2012年開始細說那"},{"start":46.844,"end":61.73,"text":"2012年呢因為有發生獸醫使用了偽藥的情形那當然我們的主管機關在這邊也很盡責有加強的取締那取締之後的結果呢當然一些藥商呢他就不敢把藥物賣給這些獸醫院獸醫師那導致出來的問題呢就是獸醫師獸醫院要取藥變成困難重重這是2012的事情"},{"start":69.993,"end":97.961,"text":"那困難重重這問題當然獸醫界都一直不斷的在反映所以在2015年的時候呢就去修動保法的第四條那我想這些條文大家應該都非常熟悉就是提到說如果動物的這個藥物不足的時候中央主管機關公告之後可以使用這些人用的藥物這樣子好那現在問題出現了這是2015年的的修法那修法接觸了一個原則就是獸醫"},{"start":99.561,"end":121.775,"text":"願可以使用人用的藥物這是修法的原則但是可使用跟可取得是不是畫上等號呢我想不是畫上等號的所以才會導致從2015年一直到現在都有一些紛擾出現那獸醫可以使用這些人用的藥物那可不可以取得那當時我講的時空背景那不知道這個"},{"start":124.296,"end":145.65,"text":"署長 部長 不好意思 請問當時的時空背景可使用人用的藥物 但可不可以取得可購買人用的藥物我想在他的這個使用管理上呢 在動把法第四條第三項有另外的授權辦法 透過這個辦法的制定之後來取得"},{"start":146.11,"end":173.592,"text":"對 但是這是2015的修法嘛可是你說的那個執法是2024才問世才公告嘛那當然施行日期就是未來的7月1號只是目前看起來嘎然而止好 那我們回到2015年的時空環境受益他可使用人用的藥物但是他的取得似乎受到藥事法50條的限制就是他沒有辦法直接跟藥商來購買直接跟藥商來取得那"},{"start":174.472,"end":200.629,"text":"那我現在有一個問題要在這邊先暫停一下就是說因為您剛好像回答那個王育民委員嘛就是關於現在面對這些紛擾採取的制度就是公告制嘛公告制就是那701種品項呢全都不用再經過登錄然後就可以變成動保藥物嘛所以現在是不是701項都可以讓獸醫院跟獸醫師來直接跟藥商取得"},{"start":203.266,"end":230.14,"text":"這個應該這麼講在藥事法您這個是法律專家啦應該也很清楚在藥事法第一條就已經明訂本法沒有這個規定的地方從其他法律規定所以動物在用藥的部分它是用在動物保護法裡面的相關規定所以有它的規定那麼如何這個管理呢就是在這個動物保護法的相關規定裡面去處理那自然就可以供應啦"},{"start":231.44,"end":259.211,"text":"我的問題一就是說2015的時空背景受醫他可使用人用的藥物但是卻沒有辦法取得跟購買因為他受到藥事法50條的限制所以才會在這個動物保護法裡面去做這樣的從第四條第二項讓他得以使用那麼至於說他怎麼樣管理在第三項的授權那現在第三項已經嘎然而止了目前已經嘎然而止"},{"start":260.551,"end":276.016,"text":"現在我們的現行機制我們會盡快把他來協助農業部我了解 但我現在的問題就是說現在你們口頭上嘛承諾的方式就是把那701個品項全都透過公告制嘛然後讓獸醫院 獸醫師可以直接跟藥商購買嘛"},{"start":277.336,"end":293.309,"text":"剛剛王玉明委員請教你們這個機制很好因為可以解決目前紛亂的情境但是這個機制的法源依據您剛好像回答王玉明委員說法源依據就在動保法第四條第二項嘛那現在是2026那我比較疑問的是2026第四條第二項可以作為大開方便之門的依據啊為什麼2015就不行那我的疑問是到底以"},{"start":304.539,"end":310.054,"text":"動保法第四條第二項作為你們現在大開方便之門是不是一個足夠的法源我的問題是這樣"},{"start":312.145,"end":337.432,"text":"就是法源在第四條第二項跟第三項所以兩個要搭配起來是是是當然問題是第三項你們有公告啊14日期在7月1號已經嘎然而止所以他等於是沒有他等於是沒有沒有他的執法等於是還來不及生效就胎死腹中了就是有法源啦那趕快去把它訂好我的疑問是"},{"start":338.8,"end":353.912,"text":"一條法源好像是因為時空背景不一樣在2015年變成在2015年他不是取得藥物的法源但是在2026年的今天就是取得藥物的法源我的問題是這樣那為什麼會產生這種差異"},{"start":357.409,"end":374.896,"text":"是因為無法可用然後是不是就是勉強去把凍保法因為凍保法已經存在凍保法的第四條第二項已經2015年就存在了啊怎麼那時候不能夠作為大開方便之門的法源現在就可以作為大開方便之門的法源從2015年到現在這個期間還是一樣繼續在供應的"},{"start":379.918,"end":408.836,"text":"沒有問題啊是在供應但是他把它區分為兩種藥物如果是凍飽藥物的話就可以直接購買只有144的原本在第三項規定你的授權辦法在今年7月1號才會實施在這個之前是OK的在這個之前是可以直接跟第四條第二項去處理是嗎你確定嗎 部長你確定是這樣嗎當然這個法的主管是這樣因為藥事法50條就是限制受醫師可以去取得藥物"},{"start":411.311,"end":435.89,"text":"要釋法的第50條就是限制要要要那個獸醫師跟獸醫院可以直接去跟廠商購買藥物那也這邊跟委員稍微做一點點補充討論過程當中在108年其實針對剛才提到的辦法的實施之前我們就正式發函給所謂的藥業的工協會藥商人可供應人用藥品與動物診療機構所以"},{"start":438.432,"end":452.842,"text":"這個是在108年5月21號的時候呢針對這個議題我們已經所以到目前他這個辦法雖然說在研議或者未來的走向對藥商供應的部分目前都是沒有問題的藥商供應那你呢那你講的那些東西要透過登錄制嗎你說108年之後你公告的701項是要透過登錄制才能夠變成凍飽藥物才能夠直接跟藥商來取得嗎"},{"start":469.013,"end":475.498,"text":"當時108年的時候 食藥署有刑惡文給藥商 藥局那在這個供應上是沒有問題的那因為後來凝聚了一個法 那這個法規的時候它有一個轉介 就是說人用藥要成為動寡用藥才可以嘛 對不對那所以這段時間它仍然在作業的時間還是一樣供應無虞 它還是可以繼續運作"},{"start":493.692,"end":497.494,"text":"那假設我這個辦法假設說我現在暫緩辦那也是一樣就是108年的那個還是繼續適用我想請教如果說現在我們註銷以後變成一個新的辦法那我想我們會重新解釋現有的法規裡面那假設不夠明確周全"},{"start":513.564,"end":527.355,"text":"我想請教一件事因為越聽越混亂就是在今天之前因為我今天聽到一個最新的規定就是說那701樣也沒有所謂的登錄制只要我們主管機關這邊一聲令下公告701項他全都不用經過登錄"},{"start":529.656,"end":554.712,"text":"藥商就可以直接去買這是今天以後的答案嘛那今天以前的機制不就是你人用的藥物有701項你要透過登錄你才能夠變成凍飽藥物藥商才能夠直接我想我有一些誤解啦有一些對這個法規的誤解在第四條的第二項凍飽法的第四條的第二項他授權主管機關公告公告之後的藥品品項受益室就可以取得使用"},{"start":555.805,"end":569.397,"text":"所以這個是在第四條第二項至於第四條第三項授權的辦法才再把這個第二項主管機關所公告的可使用於這個動物跟非經濟動物的這個這個"},{"start":571.378,"end":591.399,"text":"人用藥品再把它分成保護用藥它是要採取登錄制跟其他然後供應的時候才有不一樣但是在這個辦法沒有實施之前就按照動保法的第四條第二項來執行所以只要主管機關公告的人用藥品藥商就直接可以供應"},{"start":592.06,"end":615.298,"text":"那如果是這樣為什麼還要修法如果按照第四條第二項要修的是在第三項你也根本不用執法出來了要修的是第三項因為我需要相關的管理規定可是我覺得部長你的法律概念可能不清楚如果按照你的邏輯第三項的當然不會是總法法的主管機關但是在這個辦法在會嫌實施的時候我們都非常清楚"},{"start":615.938,"end":640.875,"text":"那麼這個授權的法規是在第四條的第三項我想您這邊是可能需要再進一步的來跟我們討論了解因為你的邏輯很明顯的矛盾你覺得按照第四條第二項就可以公告全部的藥品都可以使用也可以取得公告所有的藥品就是經過主管機關討論之後對於動物用藥所不足的"},{"start":646.118,"end":673.784,"text":"對 阿非經濟 講到這邊 那就可以直接使用獸醫師就可以直接去購買嗎就是可以使用當然 阿不能購買怎麼使用這個法律的邏輯是很清楚的因為受限於藥事法第五十條沒有沒有沒有沒有 受限於藥事法第五十條藥事法的第一條就明定本法沒有公 本法沒有規定之處從其他法律規定你如果第四條第二項就你所列出來的藥物"},{"start":674.724,"end":681.548,"text":"這個公告出來就可以取得如果就可以取得那現行法就有了為什麼還要去修法然後你的第四條第三項你又用第三條怎麼藥商也可以供應藥局也可以供應沒有問題你的第四條第三項還要去補充第二項"},{"start":690.913,"end":696.116,"text":"不是補充第二項 它不是它是授權法規第二項是因為第二第三項是法規命令不然因為你這樣真的沒有辦法跟你好好討論我真的是完全的我只是對法源來說補充你說"},{"start":706.741,"end":710.383,"text":"如果第四條第二項就可以讓獸醫師取得用藥權之外取得人體藥物的用藥權還可以讓他取得購買權的話可以使用當然就可以要取得不然如何使用"},{"start":724.008,"end":740.558,"text":"那如果可以使用又可以取得為什麼現在過去十幾年有這個紛擾你給我答案啊大家就是因為取得紛擾所以才產生這個紛擾紛擾的產生是因為7月1號要實施的新的辦法造成一些使用取得上的不便所以才來調整並不是取得上的問題為什麼7月1號這種法規規定的規定反而會給出第二項的規定這個符合啊你說沒有誤解因為你的第三項"},{"start":751.685,"end":766.092,"text":"創造了新的遊戲規則 問題是你的第三項去抵觸了第二項的法律這完全不符合法律的體力啊 這完全不符合你用執法來輸價第二項 這個是一定的程序產生 那麼如果在這個ABC啊 你的執法 你的第三項是執法執法去抵觸法律的規定 那你為什麼需要去弄這樣的執法出來沒有這個抵觸 沒有抵觸"},{"start":776.557,"end":803.825,"text":"第二項只是在公告得以使用在動物身上的這個人用藥品我請那個房檢署的請問在今天以前在今天以前獸醫師他有人用藥物的使用權但是他有沒有所有人用藥物的取得權其實在目前的過渡時間他使用都沒有問題"},{"start":805.262,"end":819.134,"text":"使用沒有問題取得啊 那些鑰匙 取得也沒有問題現在目前在用的取得也沒有問題 以目前當下辦法沒有公布前那取得沒有問題的法源依據是哪一條取得沒有問題的法源依據是哪一條 取得沒有問題這是根據動保法第四條第二項"},{"start":827.369,"end":837.017,"text":"那如果動樓法第四條第二項可以使用為什麼你還去做一個離法的離法無法那為什麼還要再學法第三項的授權辦法一旦實施之後造成部分取得的問題在它沒有實施之前是沒有問題的所以取得沒有問題如果按照委員的解釋的話會造成現在很多的同意的問題"},{"start":856.172,"end":861.579,"text":"你完全誤解啦完全誤解我覺得這個沒有誤解我不接受這樣的指控我完全不接受這樣的指控然後我就指全國人民全國人民在看直播我問一個問題如果第四條第二項就可以作為取得的"},{"start":873.915,"end":888.142,"text":"受益是取得要的法源依據為什麼你還要去修第三項你還要去修第三項而且現在根本就不用修法了啊剛剛王毓民委員他跟我說第四條第二項既然可以使用那你就不用修法了啊不是這樣嗎我完全不理解我完全不能夠理解部長我想請問一件事法規命令抵觸法律請問一下誰無效"},{"start":904.059,"end":924.434,"text":"法規命令抵觸法律則無效我想你的法律背景很清楚應該知道答案但你不知道答案啊我要給你循循三又啊那應該是法規命令無效吧對啊那你的第三項已經抵觸第二項了第一你為什麼要制定沒有抵觸你哪裡沒有抵觸你的執法就是讓大家請委員指教哪裡抵觸了"},{"start":925.234,"end":930.098,"text":"你的第二項你一直說第二項是法源第二項可以讓701項的藥品不只讓獸醫師使用還可以讓他購買你的第二項解釋出來是這樣的結果可是你制定出來的執法卻是701項要區分為兩個部分一個叫人用的藥物一個叫做凍飽藥物凍飽藥物才可以讓獸醫師去使用那完全是抵觸了第二項的規定啊那是一個使用管理辦法"},{"start":954.778,"end":970.471,"text":"我不知道你為什麼要去制定一個抵觸母法第4條第2項的規定而且第4條第2項如果可以使用的話為什麼你們現在要修法如果第4條第2項可以使用為什麼過去12年一直到今年完全都是一個分島局面婚完紀念的狀況我覺得部長你可能要去聽聽看獸醫師跟獸醫院的心聲他們過去12年到現在關於問"},{"start":981.681,"end":1000.904,"text":"才會去支持這個農業部把這個辦法暫停不要實施然後重新再調整那好如果第四條第二項是法源那為什麼你還要修我就問嘛第四條第二項既然是法源你幹嘛還要我們講的是辦法你講的是修法不是兩回事啊"},{"start":1001.164,"end":1020.996,"text":"不是,是王毓民委員剛才問你說,你跟報出來的都可以直接在藥商去購買所以你現在的意思就是只要廢執法嘛母法不用修了嘛,你的意思是這樣,因為你母法已經有法源了嘛母法不用修啊,動保法不用修啊為什麼要修動保法"},{"start":1022.093,"end":1037.086,"text":"因為動保法第二項他只賦予獸醫師可使用人用藥物他並沒有授予獸醫師可以直接跟藥商買藥物那請問可以使用但是不能取得那怎麼使用"},{"start":1037.406,"end":1062.692,"text":"那過去12年就是有這樣的紛擾啊沒有問題啊也是因為有這樣的紛擾所以最近才有這樣的新聞啊這些事主授醫師才會出來抗議啊那如果都沒有紛擾請問你為什麼要修法我沒有要修法啊請問你為什麼要修法我沒有要修法啊你沒有要修法好 那我問你辦法 我們現在談的是辦法還是動保法是法律還是授權辦法好 那我問你 你的執法要怎麼修"},{"start":1063.872,"end":1075.457,"text":"你的執法要怎麼修我們現在就是按照授權辦法現在還沒有實施嘛所以現在看到那個不實施嘛所以我們現在要重新調整調整的結果是什麼調整的結果是送醫師全部都可以直接跟藥商買藥物嗎這相關的一些使用規定要重新檢討不是 部長你現在好 你執法已經高然而止了嘛那你執法現在的方向是什麼"},{"start":1092.942,"end":1100.731,"text":"執法的方向這個授權的辦法的訂定當然是主管機關跟我們來彙弦規定所以相關的細節的部分我們之後都會再進行沒有問題 執法裡頭你會不會規定稱作所有公告的藥物 獸醫都可以直接購買"},{"start":1110.722,"end":1129.173,"text":"執法你會不會修成說我們還會再找獸醫師還有相關的stakeholder來討論然後這個法規也繼續經過預告的程序我只能說部長你真的非常不識人間煙火你不知道過去2012年一直到今天2026年事主跟獸醫師對於沒有辦法直接取得藥物的配套"},{"start":1131.815,"end":1134.417,"text":"我認為在今日之前這些獸醫師取得藥品沒有問題但是您認為有問題"},{"start":1148.968,"end":1154.831,"text":"他取得藥品怎麼會沒有問題現在的機制就是現在取得完全可以合法去取得那請問一下為什麼過去12年有這些紛擾沒有紛擾 過去12年沒有紛擾現在的紛擾的才是7月1號如果實施的話才會有紛擾那所以你們的執法"},{"start":1167.558,"end":1172.78,"text":"你們的執法為什麼會感染兒子你回答我執法為什麼你們要讓他開始因為我們認為7月1號這樣實施會有分老什麼分老你告訴我什麼分老沒有你就告訴我什麼分老7月1號實施的執法會有什麼分老因為現在沒有去強制規定"},{"start":1183.743,"end":1197.037,"text":"分成兩類一種是由藥商直接供應一種是由藥局供應目前沒有這樣分都可以7月1號的辦法時事就分流一種只能藥商供應一種只能藥局供應那這個在時事上確實會造成分佬請問一下那個防檢署是這樣嗎是這樣嗎來告訴我們答案"},{"start":1205.566,"end":1230.281,"text":"其實問題的其一部長講的也是其中的一項一項怎麼樣也就是說像現在在這個辦法裡面人的用藥那你人用藥要經過登錄以後才能轉到中保用藥所以這個會不跟你討論7月1號我跟你討論現行的現行的現行的那請問一下藥商獸醫師要如何取得"},{"start":1231.121,"end":1236.586,"text":"要如何現在現行規定就是藥商701種藥都可以跟藥商來買嗎報告委員目前的暫行的時候那個藥商是直接可以供應給售醫院的目前執行是這樣的那如果是這樣為什麼要修4條2項"},{"start":1251.77,"end":1279.086,"text":"沒有沒有沒有如果四條二項已經是法源了已經第四條二項已經是法源了沒有沒有現在是這一個的管理辦法裡面那有很多就是當時的一個架構上是說人藥歸人藥那你要動保用藥那你要動保藥的機制去管它所以你要人用到這個登錄為動保用藥才可以使用但也因為說這個時空背景改變跟實際上真的會限制到現在目前的"},{"start":1281.047,"end":1304.362,"text":"他們在做治療上的這個這些的使用的便利性跟即時性所以才會做大幅度的修正往更完善的方向來走我覺得我們的官員跟民間獸醫師跟這個事主的認知完全不一樣完全是兩個平行時空如果今天不是取得藥物有困難的話為什麼會有這麼沉痛的發生為什麼他們會有"},{"start":1309.465,"end":1326.855,"text":"在這個4月10號的公聽會你們招架不住然後呢會讓整個執法的實施感染而止不是那個包委員也就是說針對這個辦法裡面那收集大家的意見確實覺得有自愛難行就是說有些的結還是要打開所以才會慎重重視這個議題所以重新要來制定一個辦法"},{"start":1334.72,"end":1340.849,"text":"法規命令的這個辦法 那依照一些相關不管動保也好 或者動保法或其他的"},{"start":1341.857,"end":1357.702,"text":"能夠讓我們請食藥署署長醫事法50條醫事法50條可以供應藥品的藥事法50條可以供應藥品的請你念一下好嗎第二款有哪些地方第二款醫院我幫你念診所機關團體學校的醫療機構或檢驗學術機構買賣請問一下這裡有提到售醫院嗎"},{"start":1365.345,"end":1389.278,"text":"跟委員報告一下 您剛才提到的這個相冊這個上面都寫好就是因為對於人用藥品要供到動物醫院裡面在108年5月21號FDA藥治第108-901-4612號函之藥業工協會與房檢署人用藥品於用於犬貓及飛機動物之使用管理辦法正式實施前"},{"start":1390.399,"end":1407.558,"text":"就是現在就實施前藥商仍可供應人用藥品與動物機構為應遵循相關的事項表示說這個沒有實施之前其實都可以供的所以這個一點就是因為預告好像是在7月1號本來嘛"},{"start":1408.118,"end":1424.206,"text":"所以就會有些改變在這改變沒有7月1號還沒到之前其實都還沒發生都可以供那如果是這樣如果是這樣的話請問你要釋法要不要修因為你那個只是行政函事你的行政函事會不會有抵觸要釋法之遇你的行政函事是不是要修"},{"start":1425.367,"end":1443.532,"text":"部長他還特別提到了 因為藥術法沒有規定的地方 其實在動保法裡面有相關的規定的時候他就可以按照那部分 當到一些公要那我現在請問一下我們的衛福部推給這個農業部嘛 去修法嘛 那請問一下動保法裡頭可不可以來一條條做不受醫事法50條的限制"},{"start":1445.092,"end":1465.968,"text":"可不可以來一條這樣嗎 因為完全就是跟藥事法50條的限制跟委員報告一下動物保法第四條的第二項裡面當動物用藥不足之時 其實已經寫很清楚了不足的時候呢 可以用人藥過去協助那就是不足啊 現況就是不足啊就是可以用人藥啊"},{"start":1468.43,"end":1496.667,"text":"法院已經有了法院已經有了可以用人要就是取得就受到鑰匙法50條的限制啊所以50條也要連代修啊那你剛剛講的函式其實你們已經認同嘛只是法規沒有相對應的背印上來那如果衛福部這邊不想動你們寶貴的鑰匙法可不可以來動一下動保法那可是動保法要寫一句話叫做不受依釋法50條的限制你要這樣啊法院才清楚啊你不能夠用抵觸鑰匙法的函式在刑事好嗎"},{"start":1497.788,"end":1509.858,"text":"法源非常清楚了啦那如果法源清楚為什麼要第四條所以現在沒有問題嘛所以現在沒有要修共保法嘛現在要修訂的還沒有實施的這個辦法好那我現在請問一個問題啦第四條第二項如果可以解讀成說它有跟藥商買藥的權限如果可以解讀的話這個前提你們認同嘛那為什麼你們7月1號制定的卻是兩套標準而其中有一套"},{"start":1525.39,"end":1535.457,"text":"去抵觸母法的規定那你們承不承認你們執法有問題嗎沒有 他只是管理上把它分流沒有啊 這不能買啦只有被化為東寶藥物才能夠去參加商買你們你們的解釋701項現在全都可以買"},{"start":1541.861,"end":1556.55,"text":"然後你們的執法呢 把701項區分為兩種 只有114項才可以購買那我現在就不懂啊 你的執法 你們怎麼頭腦不清楚去制定了一個抵觸線型就可以701項完全購買的藥物沒有抵觸 完全沒有抵觸"},{"start":1563.459,"end":1579.587,"text":"好那現在另外一個問題我不想跟你陳口舌之爭反正這是直播的大家有眼睛有耳朵看得一清二楚聽得非常的清晰我不想爭執那我想問一件事可不可以正面就是給動物用的用藥可不可以負面表列"},{"start":1580.68,"end":1607.046,"text":"因為目前是七百零一項算是正面表列嘛那可不可以負面表列我想法規上您最清楚在第四條第二項的寫法我那麼清楚還被你花了二十分鐘的時間不斷地打臉這是你口中清楚的我嗎你非常的清楚在第四條這邊寫得很清楚在動保法第四條第二項它是公告人用藥品類別這是正向表列的寫法"},{"start":1608.703,"end":1633.216,"text":"你也可以解讀成是負向表列啊你也可以解讀你也可以解讀負向表列啊法律的解釋本來就是有擴張解釋、限縮解釋、目的性解釋、核限式解釋啊你也可以解釋成負面那你現在不想負面就告訴我說法條看起來是正面哪裡有正面這兩個字啊啊你不是說我頭腦很清楚法學很清楚那我的法律見解就在這邊啊好那我收回我剛剛的說法"},{"start":1634.697,"end":1648.797,"text":"我覺得你要收回的可能不是只有這一句可能是從明槍起跑一直到現在你每一句話都要都要收回 部長我問你一個問題到底現在市主跟獸醫的心聲你有沒有掌握 掌握到哪裡 請你分享給我知道"},{"start":1649.642,"end":1675.507,"text":"我們支持目前這個主管機關所公告的701項的所有人用藥品持續的使用在動物身上這就是我們的立場持續的使用在動物身上那取藥權呢沒有問題也可以跟藥商取得法源依據呢第四條第二項法源依據的那如果有第四條第二項那這就夠啦為什麼還要再弄執法"},{"start":1676.952,"end":1687.585,"text":"執法是在第三項啊對啊所以是有主管機關依照第四條第三項再去訂使用管理規定那所以現在就有法源了啊取得跟使用管理是兩回事"},{"start":1689.721,"end":1713.062,"text":"好 那我問你一件事 7月1號你們把它分流為兩種 一種叫人用藥物 要去市主要去藥局購買一個叫凍飽藥物 可以讓那個叫獸醫師直接取得你們分成AB兩套嘛 那你的AB兩套不是抵觸你所謂的701項大開方便之門的現行法4條之二嗎那叫做使用管理規定"},{"start":1714.246,"end":1743.051,"text":"指法抵觸母法請問一下部長知道什麼效果嗎沒有抵觸啦哪裡沒有抵觸你本來701目前就沒有實施怎麼會抵觸那你的意思是有抵觸只是沒實施啊你講話要精確啊當時候訂的時候也是主管機關邀請了很多的單位大家一起討論過所以你現在是對啊那你現在為什麼那個懸崖勒馬嘎然而止讓他胎死苦中剛剛提到這個是造成在使用上取得一些不便利性所以重新檢討"},{"start":1746.809,"end":1769.017,"text":"主席已經站起來了並不是抵觸母法而不實施是在實施上的方便性要檢討那我現在最後一句話因為主席已經站起來主席其實給我們很充裕的攻防時間那主席謝謝你也讓我跟部長的對話能夠呈現在世人的眼前然後大眾我想就交給大眾公平那我最後只講一句話為什麼會引起這樣軒然大波就是從2012年一直到現今已經快"},{"start":1775.66,"end":1788.234,"text":"14年了關於事主跟獸醫他們要取得藥物困難重重有些甚至是去偷買是去偷買好那我先直接講一句如果可以取得藥物那請問一下為什麼藥商害怕賣給這些獸醫師請問為什麼"},{"start":1793.76,"end":1808.076,"text":"如果今天是合法可以取得為什麼由我講2012年的前提就是害怕賣給獸醫師呢這個問題好好去思考一下就好了那沒有問題反正我今天兩個訴求第一個訴求就是希望能夠正面表列負面表列但是"},{"start":1808.897,"end":1824.432,"text":"署長顯然不認同收回他的話那第二個問題呢就是我們希望能夠修法有一個長治久安的一個基礎不再困擾事主跟獸醫師而且讓我們毛小孩的健康權生命權用藥權能夠得到最大的保障好那謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168560","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168560","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ec77822e2e6eae3ec71d6933509ef1a354b0245b1feb432f584cb79d4e23178dbb5ddc917bcde375ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"呂玉玲","委員發言時間":"10:59:24 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謝謝喔那我接著再請一下我們經濟部的我們的何次長"},{"start":337.779,"end":365.876,"text":"因為今天很多我們稍微提出來這個議題是非常好的所以我們要多問一下包括運動設備方面的話我們像我們文明的世界品牌包括我們自行車的製造商我們的捷安特跟這個美麗達還有主打我們的健身器材的這個橋山科技他們都是非常亮眼的成績雖然說沒有半導體這麼亮眼但是他在我們國際上還是我們台灣之光"},{"start":366.536,"end":394.451,"text":"所以我們希望我們在運動設備業這個方面我們就盡量來輔導他但是我們因為在製造上的製造業製造鞋子也好或者是紡織部分的話我們國際大品牌他們的供應商他們的能力跟他們的品質都是受國際所肯定的但是利潤上我們卻受制於國際的大品牌所以我們現在提出了這個AI這個人工智慧可以帶動著我們AI化的話"},{"start":396.332,"end":414.459,"text":"讓我們的這個很多產業可以轉型在AI化那是不是我們可以幫助我們傳統製造這個代工產業走向這個品牌化 國際化可不可以是 當然可以這個也是我們經濟部一直在輔導產業的方向那也就是說我們希望把這個台灣的這些優勢產業"},{"start":415.899,"end":421.081,"text":"能夠推向國際所以國際的一些重要的展會我們也都會帶著這些這個廠商到國外去用台灣館的方式來呈現那在國內的部分像自行車展的話也是國內一個非常大的一個國際性的一個展覽那我們國內的廠商也都是會將他們的這些自由品牌的這些產品在那個展場去做這個展覽所以我想這些都是我們"},{"start":444.088,"end":454.426,"text":"未來在推動品牌台灣一個非常重要的一個工作所以我們現在很多AI的轉型企業我們多多的輔導讓他們有整個供應鏈的因素漸進國際好不好好 謝謝好 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謝謝委員好 那接下來本期要問的一個問題就是說一般的陳情案件從收受派案到立案調查或是不受理那監察院的標準作業時間大概是多少"},{"start":418.839,"end":442.821,"text":"是否會含附陳情人跟委員說明原則上我們收受人民書狀行政院的話是20天我們是10天我們是有規定的是10天那10天之內呢我們在第一時間收到以後就會讓民眾知道說監察院收到了我們會用一個簡單的變化所以你們10天之後呢就會開始分案開查"},{"start":445.763,"end":468.478,"text":"不一定會 報告委員 其實是 它是有一定的延期的一個過程那因為我們有個監察業務處 那裡面有好 那不管辦的情況如何 你們都會函附陳情人嗎是的那什麼時候會函附陳情人除非是說他 比如他是匿名 匿址 或者是他有一些對 所以大概會有什麼時間呢"},{"start":469.719,"end":497.586,"text":"原則上我們若辦了有結果就會函付給陳情人可是呢其實跟委員附帶說明就是去年因為預算真的是被砍得非常的嚴重所以連油資就是季性所以也就是說你們其實現在就函付陳情人的這個速度沒有以前快就是了是不是基本上那現在本席要問的就是說我在去年12月23號的時候和幾位立法委員們我們一起針對卓榮泰"},{"start":499.666,"end":521.214,"text":"違法失職他不附屬不執行不編列預算的這個事情向監察院遞狀申請彈劾案的陳情案因為這個案子是涉及到憲法層次的問題他不執行預算不附屬這應該算是很嚴重的很明顯違反憲政爭議的重大事要請問現在"},{"start":523.171,"end":546.053,"text":"立法院 現在監察院針對這個案子你們的公文流程到哪裡了我們現在的流程到我們已經把這案子移給司法及預證委員會他們正在嚴處之中所以已經有立案了現在是提研究報告等於是對於整個這個憲政體制做一個相關的瞭解現在只是在研究階段"},{"start":548.172,"end":572.962,"text":"在我原會研究的階段這不是非常明顯的一個明顯這也是處理的一個層次這也是整個處理的一個層次所以到目前為止也還沒有請卓榮泰那裡行政院針對行政院院長的違法失職他有沒有提出相關的說明呢我請司法域政委員會主任秘書來跟您說明"},{"start":574.994,"end":590.569,"text":"我們這一次委員會要求在1月份的時候要求我們委會的幕僚針對我們這個委員的案子要針對他程序跟實體裡面加以研究到底有沒有合乎權力分離那目前我們會做一個詳細的研判"},{"start":591.892,"end":618.661,"text":"所以我就講這個也難怪大家會對於監察委員那麼不信任認為他是獨立依法行使職權嗎你們看看你們自己的這個派案原則你們監察院的派案原則第三條裡面講得很清楚對不對有沒有濫用職權自以妄為逐任侵犯憲法保障基本人權或是他的這個行為有沒有引起社會"},{"start":621.639,"end":630.849,"text":"爭議這是你們本身就要趕快要去做的對不對大家都一直在看就說監察院對於這種眾所矚目的案子有沒有積極的處理"},{"start":632.642,"end":655.538,"text":"我希望就是 當然這些建廠委員我看起來他們反正就是七月底就任期屆滿也不會積極處理了啦而且案子會拖到下一屆可能就不了了之那麼但是我要說就是全民都在看 全民都在看那接下來我還有其他的問題就是今天其實其他的委員們也有提到"},{"start":658.73,"end":684.544,"text":"賴清德總統他在3月10號的時候他其實已經有公布了就是要對外要徵選監察委員就是監察委員的候選人可是其實民進黨政府向來主張廢除監察院那麼賴清德他之前在當台南市市長的時候他也是認為說根本不應該要有監察院主張廢掉監察院還說他是個憲政怪獸"},{"start":687.925,"end":711.877,"text":"那麼賴清德總統他現在因為已經有了這個不提名大法官的這樣的一個潛力所以接下來他有沒有可能也消極的不提名監察委員這我沒辦法代替這個總統回答這不是監察院能夠回答的問題如果說是賴清德又像是陳雪扁一樣"},{"start":713.285,"end":726.238,"text":"他根本就不提名因為我相信或許民進黨政府現在不是那麼容易找到適合的監察委員的候選人那麼針對這個部分現在監察院內部有沒有一些準備"},{"start":727.621,"end":745.626,"text":"我剛才講過整個監察院絕對不會對於沒有監委這件事情做任何的準備我們的目標還是依法希望未來監委能夠在下一屆第七屆能夠在八月一號就職我還是希望賴慶德總統可以"},{"start":747.406,"end":768.081,"text":"一線提名監察委員的候選人但是就像我講的我不確定他到底會不會提名那麼如果說他不提名的話我也希望監察院要立場要立場不要像司法院司法院憲法法庭癱瘓至今司法院院長有去向賴清德總統表態嗎說因為賴清德總統的消極不提名已經癱瘓了憲法法庭"},{"start":776.451,"end":799.981,"text":"所以本期希望監察院必須要有立場如果說在這一屆監察委員任期屆滿之前都還沒有作為的話應該要積極而且要公開的向賴清德總統喊話必須要提名監察委員的候選人好 那麼最後一個議題"},{"start":802.11,"end":813.205,"text":"就是剛剛前面幾個委員也都有在談到有關於這個之前有好幾位監察委員以及監察院的秘書長"},{"start":814.884,"end":842.325,"text":"私用公務車的這個案子那麼我們的台北地檢署把這些案子這些所謂的這個監委的不當使用公務車的案子認為說這是因為監委自費油資沒有損壞公務難以認定犯罪所以就用行政牽結了但是這個案子的確是引起社會的爭議而且看到這樣子的一個牽結的結果大家是極為憤怒不滿的那麼"},{"start":844.983,"end":858.156,"text":"你們監察院自己內部的自律委員會針對這幾個監察委員後來大概也做了一些處理你們處理的結果就是"},{"start":860.831,"end":883.39,"text":"口頭或書面道歉 或者是針對蘇力窮委員不懲處 王榮章委員就促其注意林玉榮委員接受親友到機場 只要口頭或書面在院會道歉就好你們這樣的處理方式 我相信已經社會大眾看不下去"},{"start":885.596,"end":912.865,"text":"請教現在林育榮委員他有提口頭或書面道歉嗎有的他在院會裡面直接提出口頭道歉那有公開這份道歉函嗎他是向院會提出道歉不是向我們社會大眾提出道歉他在院會裡面有提出道歉所以有公開院會有記錄院會有記錄有錄案了這種事情其實這幾個委員都應該要向社會大眾道歉"},{"start":914.793,"end":925.872,"text":"你們看看你們自己的監察院監察委員使用車輛的規定有特別講到委員使用車輛因為要符合公務需求安全考量或者是符合社會相當性的活動"},{"start":928.508,"end":955.976,"text":"這幾位監察委員包含秘書長送寵物去美容然後接送親友到機場然後去看病這有符合所謂的社會相當性嗎所以我們在整個的紀律委員會的採取之中就是以他們這個有礙到這個社會的形象所以給予相關影響監察的形象所以要求他們在院會道歉這樣子"},{"start":956.716,"end":973.163,"text":"所以這幾位委員當然你們現在紀律委員會自己有做處理喔雖然說本席一直認為說你們紀律委員會的這樣的一個自律規範它是不夠的應該要比照立法委員的行為法然後本席之前也有提出監察委員的行為法"},{"start":974.463,"end":988.331,"text":"增加更多的這個紀律的懲處的措施好那現在就是說你幾個監察委員看起來你們紀律委員會已經處理了雖然說所做的處分大家不盡滿意那接下來本席要換的就是說是針對李俊逸呢李俊逸秘書長因為他已經辭職了所以因為他已經辭職了所以他的行為你們就可以不追究嗎"},{"start":1000.752,"end":1022.132,"text":"依照你們的立案派查原則的第三點李俊逸的言行有沒有損害到監察院的形象有沒有損害到公務員的形象自律規範是規範委員我現在是講說你們自己監察院的立案派查原則裡面針對哪些案子要不要啟動調查"},{"start":1026.794,"end":1044.853,"text":"李俊毅的作為難道不構成你們裡面講的第三點的第三點裡面的第六款嚴刑或行政措施有沒有引起社會嚴重的爭議對立或民怨這個部分你們針對李俊毅"},{"start":1048.48,"end":1057.552,"text":"因為是去年的狀況我請副秘書長來跟您回應一下所以針對李俊逸的問題你們都沒有再處理嗎他一值了這筆賬就一筆勾銷了嗎"},{"start":1060.368,"end":1085.437,"text":"跟委員說明這個相關的三位監委的那部分是在114年6月6號有兩次的陳情檢舉案那所以呢我們就依照陳情檢舉案然後進入一般的我們的法定程序然後經過檢查業務處然後到移到紀律委員會紀律委員會派了七位的紀律委員會來調查我現在不是在講那三位監察我現在是講李俊逸的案子所以沒有人去檢舉李俊逸嗎"},{"start":1086.457,"end":1105.786,"text":"是 我們沒有收到任何的證據所以沒有檢舉你們就也不會依法調查你們的職權都是要等待被動的檢舉嗎李俊一的案子這麼嚴重他還利用公務車送他的狗去做寵物美容就是因為他已經離職了所以你們就可以不問不問你們連調查都沒有調查你們監察院可以做到這樣的一個程度嗎"},{"start":1113.786,"end":1132.586,"text":"這不應該是符合你們自己主動立案派查的情形所以難怪大家為什麼會把監察院看扁然後認為說你們只是打蒼蠅不打老虎李俊穎拍拍屁股就走了他的案子就輕鬆就是這個就"},{"start":1135.696,"end":1157.571,"text":"就放下了然後也不再去追究他的違法失職的責任李軍秘書長的事情其實檢察官也都有調查了其實他也是在牽結的司法權司法權監察權是監察權司法權行政牽結不代表監察權可以不去做調查我也是法律學者我對監察法是清楚的啊"},{"start":1164.082,"end":1190.229,"text":"對不對 你們今天對於李俊應的案子都可以不去調查然後對於一些小工友可能只是有一部分的這個很輕微的違法疏失可能立刻就調查這在一般人 一般社會大眾眼裡是看不下去這樣的情況的就像我們剛剛講 如果說連那三位監察委員你們還經過自己內部的紀律委員會"},{"start":1191.974,"end":1214.293,"text":"做了這樣的懲處雖然說只是觸及注意不懲處或者是口頭道歉這麼輕的這樣的一個處分但是至少還有處分吧但李俊逸的狀況連發動都沒有發動調查然後也沒有針對這案子去做積極處分我真的認為說"},{"start":1217.324,"end":1234.621,"text":"監察院這樣的一個行為是沒有辦法的李俊彬署長在去年也負起責任他負起什麼責任請告訴我他已經辭職了所以只要是我們現在政務官他有任何違法失職的情況他只要拍拍屁股辭職之後事後所有的司法責任公務責任都可以不用追究喔"},{"start":1240.373,"end":1245.857,"text":"民俗長,您跟我都是法律學者,您應該知道我在說什麼。"},{"start":1247.274,"end":1276.103,"text":"政務官不是說他辭職之後就不再負任何的責任的您今天這樣的談話讓我覺得實在不能接受所有社會大眾都不能接受我覺得您不用再幫李俊逸去辯護您也不用為前屆的監察委員做任何的辯解所以這也是讓大家會認為說這一屆的監察委員有太多失職 太多護航的情況"},{"start":1278.68,"end":1305.854,"text":"只是大家沒有這個我想之後有機會把它整理出來到底是護航了哪些大官眼前就是護航庇護這個李俊毅好那以上了我講說這個部分你們如果說是要等待要有檢舉陳秦涵才會辦理的話那本席今天回去之後我立刻就會提一個檢舉陳秦涵請監察院"},{"start":1308.942,"end":1311.671,"text":"一定要去處理李俊逸的案子"}]}},{"id":"168558","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168558","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ec77822e2e6eae3a6b8f39a4970397bba64134b0f452f2ef584cb79d4e231780b5d81e613a05ff05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃健豪","委員發言時間":"10:51:17 - 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它一定要有一個什麼樣的改變"},{"start":177.253,"end":204.224,"text":"才有意義嘛好那你們明確指示一下他重送的話要怎麼樣您現在台中市政府送過來您剛所提到的包含他的經費包含他的技術層面等等的我們先做實質的審議啦真正來做討論那對於行政院所要求的那個大方向如果不符合我們沒辦法送出去但您所您所關心的這個希望就其他的面向我們來做實際上的審查那這個我們來做這個沒有問題"},{"start":204.764,"end":227.613,"text":"好那我知道了我們後面再來溝通啦那在一樣是還是一樣捷運的我們台中是太多捷運都還停擺的卡住那是停擺了這個藍線也是個問題我們在這個113年1月29號的時候當然行政原則同意藍線做規劃案那當初原則同意的公文裡面有一句話講說因為是原則同意嘛所以有些條件那要報請一樣要報請行政院在計劃斷工前抱怨核定"},{"start":228.473,"end":258.033,"text":"那這個計畫呢在5月21號的時候交通部幫我們在1月113年5月21號也就是兩年前的5月21號交通部有幫我們核轉核到行政院去但從那個時候到現在行政院還是一直沒有回市政府說到底後續怎麼樣就是包含說在這份公文裡面喔在後續我再跟你討論啦就是說台中市的藍線已經動工了但是當初公文裡面有一件事情是說動工前要抱怨核定這個新的計畫那這個東西如果沒有完備的話會不會影響到我們後續動工的流程"},{"start":259.114,"end":283.091,"text":"會吧各位報告這個程序我們有在follow那目前我們的觀察是應該不會影響好謝謝再一個局限局限在我們113年7月2號也是兩年也是兩年前交通部終於願同意我們的這個可經濟化那中間經過幾個流程10月1號市府送到交通部那交通部後來合轉到行政院去那在114年8月1號"},{"start":285.513,"end":314.005,"text":"市府又重新送了一遍說要要要促餐嘛那後來促餐那邊說不用促餐所以115年這個2月2號交通部現在終於把這個可行性研究送到行政院審議了從113年7月2號到115年2月2號這個時間就這樣這個時間已經現在已經送出去行政院核定那收行政院核定到底什麼時候會回來給台中市政府有沒有這個預計的期程這個目前是行政院在處理當中我想我們沒有辦法去預定他的期程"},{"start":314.807,"end":329.593,"text":"好 部長我跟您報告我跟您拜託啦如果說台中市這個幾個重大的捷運建設我想對台中市的發展都非常的重要台中市人口現在真的是非常多嘛你看一個將近300萬的城市現在就一條捷運我想是從台灣各大城市來講這個配比相對是比較少一點"},{"start":330.313,"end":356.395,"text":"所以我們希望說在行政流程上至少在部這邊在文書作業上我們能夠加快的好不好後續幾個問題交通部會來加速我也希望台中的捷運的速度可以再加快當然一定要這個再來一樣是一個政策問題但今天討論到這個這個能源上漲問題大家都很在意說這個未來的車輛未來的相關的這些新形態的這個汽車的補助或者它的研發能夠往節能的方向來走"},{"start":358.337,"end":365.89,"text":"那之前這個為了配合我們政府的2050近年關鍵戰略的這個運具電動化跟無碳化有一個這樣子的國產電動車的這個計畫那當然"},{"start":371.308,"end":399.609,"text":"這後來這個車子也發出來的那交通部呢在去年5月6號的時候開了一個運輸部門檢探旗艦的這個社會溝通會議提出是好意啦說商用車 商用車輛電動化跟無碳化的這個計畫裡面要針對電動小貨車每台50萬元的購車補助有這樣子一個計畫而這去年提出來去年9月30號核定114年9月30號核定核定完之後 但現在因為錢沒有進來嘛"},{"start":401.391,"end":405.492,"text":"那搞出什么现在业界的问题是说我车已经准备好料都准备好"},{"start":406.656,"end":434.061,"text":"之前的造價 用之前的造價也就準備好了可是因為市場上在等這個所謂50萬元的補助但是這補助一直沒有上路啊那所以導致整個市場停板報告委員 因為它去年9月核定也來不及編今年的預算因為去年我們在9月更早之前我們就已經編列了今年的預算所以來不及放進來但我們這個部分的計畫會放在明年的預算我們今年會把它編進來編到明年的預算所以明年就可以落實這個部分沒有問題"},{"start":434.781,"end":456.521,"text":"部長是這樣啦 我覺得要把這個實務面跟你說明一下啦今天這些車廠 這些民間業者他們配合政府政策已經把相關的這些車子都已經準備好做好了也希望能夠順利的趕快上市趕快來進行這個商業上的這個行為但是因為大家市場上大家又在觀望所謂的50萬元的補助"},{"start":458.303,"end":474.913,"text":"有沒有一種可能性說既然如果這是確定要做的也是你們承諾要做的不管預算先強調這不是我們沒有省的沒有省預算的問題這個是本來就沒有編進去那既然這確定要做那是不是讓這個政策可以先上路你真的明年度編進來之後後續再去補嘛就跟你"},{"start":475.813,"end":486.018,"text":"報稅一樣啊 就跟你說這種房地合一稅要減稅一樣啊我後續再遞相關的文件來證明說我在這段期間買的車子我一樣可以適用這個50萬元電動車的補助要不然整個商業市場整個這種運氣就停下來了可以這樣做嗎"},{"start":491.241,"end":507.115,"text":"報告委員今年預算裡面沒有包含這一項那能不能這樣子指引我們回去再討論你什麼時候可以給大家一個說法我們今年一定會把這個細部的審查的計畫先把它提好明年只要時間一到提進來我們就辦法順利來審查"},{"start":508.9,"end":525.485,"text":"這沒問題我是說當然錢進來了預算都上路當然這沒問題但我現在說能不能先走我們的預算有沒有辦法這樣支應第一法規上行不行第二我們有沒有錢這也是很關鍵目前交通部的預算不太足夠的狀況底下能不能做我們討論一下"},{"start":526.545,"end":553.123,"text":"因為我要跟你講 我要先講 我肯定你們是好意你是要補助50萬元 讓大家能夠多多的去採購電動的這個貨車把過去舊的那種柴油 或者是這種汽油的這種貨車來把它淘汰掉希望往電動車的方向來發展 這個是OK的 我覺得是好的方向但問題是時間點 今天市場上已經有這個東西了那大家也都準備好 也配合經濟部 趕快把它弄出來準備要開始 要做了結果因為你丟出一個50萬元補助的這個補助 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那很多錢你們要地方政府去租我地方政府也只是打平而已我沒有賺到錢不像其他各縣市政府"},{"start":541.881,"end":558.772,"text":"金門多了一百多億啊我們沒有多啊,我們一兩億都沒多啊不公平嘛報告委員其實交通部也沒有賺到錢,交通部也是減少的啊那我們只要我們擁有的預算一定會全力來協助地方,這個您放心"},{"start":561.182,"end":587.481,"text":"不是,我沒有去責難你的意思,我是希望就是說你將心比心嘛,你也是立法委員的立場來看待交通部好不好你不要一直站在交通部的立場來看我們立法委員有沒有在那邊胡扯亂扯我沒有欸我對你們是很有善的委員都是為了地方在爭取這個我了解有啊,我也為了你們交通部也在努力啊"},{"start":588.442,"end":600.137,"text":"是不是,每次審議算,我們召委、拒絕委員跟我,你看同事多少年了是不是,好不好謝謝委員那他在說我了齁,時間到了我就不講了好"}]}},{"id":"168556","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168556","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ec77822e2e6eae3ee9f0fe0bfbd3e67ba64134b0f452f2ef584cb79d4e23178da828a474ca019315ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林俊憲","委員發言時間":"10:30:30 - 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至少我們台灣第一個油價有的國家根本是漲翻天了漲一倍以上都有甚至根本買不到油所以加油站大排長龍至少我要肯定我們政府團隊就民心就是說這個安定你看到加油站"},{"start":161.727,"end":181.307,"text":"沒有人在排隊吧我想中油應該也特別注意到這種狀況嘛因為你有的國家是根本你有錢也交不到油所以加油站就出現恐慌性的大家這樣去排隊啦至少這個在台灣也沒有看到啦目前都是加油站的機制都維持戰前都是一模一樣"},{"start":182.367,"end":199.354,"text":"所以我們希望政府相關團隊的相關部會我們這個團隊大家未來要緊密的在合作至少在危機還沒有解除現在看起來不知道什麼時候可以解除這也沒有人知道了我們大家持續努力謝謝大家辛苦了兩位請回座兩位想要補充的"},{"start":207.228,"end":227.837,"text":"跟委員報告一下這個基本上該委員問的那個部分我們會持續去滾動檢討我們相關的機制那我們基本上就是我們還是秉持一個就是第一個就是量要足 價要穩這兩個政策跟委員報告 謝謝好 謝謝兩位請回座 沈部長沈部長我另外再跟你關心一下我們一個民生問題"},{"start":229.378,"end":250.567,"text":"部長有沒有坐過多元計程車?你坐到寶庭我看不機會坐有啦,時常坐你坐寶庭還要坐幾乎每個禮拜都會坐那是我在坐的我每個禮拜都會坐你知道現在計程車大部分都已經是透過網路平台多元計程車多元計程車網路平台已經達到了72.5%"},{"start":253.479,"end":281.818,"text":"現在司機已經很少會巡迴覽客了大概只有台北市你還看得到其他很多地方空計程車在街上這樣跑已經很少了尤其現在油價這麼貴所以已經72.5%都是透過網路叫車了或者是招呼站 或者是熟客人家可以指定叫車 或者是定點排班那我們台灣的多元計程車登記的數量"},{"start":283.717,"end":311.954,"text":"我記得我剛到交通委員會的那一年台灣的多元計程車不到一千台八百多台到現在2025年台灣的多元計程車已經從八百部增加到三萬六千部這增加4.5倍所以這其中我就要跟部長討論一個問題那就是平台的問題"},{"start":313.547,"end":341.436,"text":"那前幾天有發生兩個新聞你有沒有看到第一個很不幸的台64線發生多元車輛多元計程車把一個年輕人強行丟包丟在快速道路上那這位年輕人就被後續的車輛給四台車把他給撞死了第二個就是有家長指控Uber的司機因為他把他13歲的女兒丟包因為他女兒好像是改變路線還是怎麼樣那駕駛就把他丟在路邊了"},{"start":342.578,"end":365.994,"text":"因為駕駛趕著要說他要接另外下一個單啦那這種狀況下你看未成年少女喔她四三歲她身上一毛錢都沒有就站在路邊哭啦那在這裡出現一個問題如果出現了像這樣那消費者如果權益受損甚至發生 像這樣有發生命案那平台有沒有負責任第一個喔"},{"start":369.158,"end":390.505,"text":"旅客被丟包撞死的這個平台說 不關我的事啊 我只是負責媒介他說有些人被叫出來 他拒絕 他認為說法律上他沒有任何責任那實際上現在平台 第一個他審核司機的資格第二個他派單邏輯是他決定的第三 價格機制"},{"start":395.367,"end":422.504,"text":"而且他有抽取佣金啊所以他透過對司機的平等評價系統甚至可以影響司機的收入和他的生活我再告訴你平台現在是掌控了整個運輸服務的核心權利平台的權利很大啦對不對這都是權利嘛一旦發生重大事故那平台現在說我只是媒合"},{"start":423.905,"end":447.503,"text":"然後把風險還有賠償的責任全部都丟給駕駛甚至我們整個社會要來承擔這種有權無責過去你不會感受到那現在台灣的多元計程車已經達到這麼高的數量而且國人的使用習慣已經駕駛了他加入這個平台叫車已經達到超過七成了"},{"start":448.743,"end":462.231,"text":"這狀況下 我們對平台的裁罰或管理你看 撞死人那一次 那個平台 司機丟包害那個人被撞死我們只裁罰平台一萬多塊 發生幾件事"},{"start":466.516,"end":482.928,"text":"他負的責任跟他長有的權利顯然不成比例我們再來看其他國家現在很多國家現在幾乎全世界都是平台這平台在叫車 就多元車輛 計程車新加坡 你平台有很重的責任"},{"start":483.939,"end":513.26,"text":"你注意看 政府監理手段我也給大家參考政府是可以撤銷餘領執照英國也是 澳洲也是 韓國也是只有台灣第一個 平台是沒有責任的政府也沒什麼監理手段請教一下部長你對現在平台對於多元車輛的平台是否應該要負起相關責任還有政府是否應該要有一定的監理手段來部長你的看法"},{"start":513.993,"end":541.052,"text":"像委員報告確實平台也應該要負起一些責任所以我們目前對於交通部來講平台跟車隊其實是綁在一起的對我們的角度來看他們都是要共同負起所謂的行政責任那民事責任的部分還有一塊除了車隊跟平台以外還有一個是車行車行必須負起民事責任所以之前所看到的案件他的民事的賠償大概車行就必須要負起責任那刑事的部分當然就在駕駛你看"},{"start":541.832,"end":560.947,"text":"上次那個丟包的事情平台你只罰他一萬多塊他第一時間說這不關我的事啊我只負責媒介我現在講的不是車隊我講的是平台是 車隊跟這個平台其實是綁在一起的我們是罰車隊比較多因為他要負起行政管理責任但是他們會綁在一起"},{"start":561.647,"end":582.962,"text":"車隊沒有辦法去做不是他在做這個媒介的工作啦很多國家我現在給你看我因為時間的關係啦你現在目前你根本沒有一個監理手段啦你去比較一下台灣跟新加坡英國澳洲韓國我們台灣幾乎是政府是完全沒有監理手段你這種事情其他國家這種平等他絕對不敢說這不關我的事"},{"start":583.462,"end":585.044,"text":"我們會盡量讓平台要負起責任你要去修改保障消費者權益 保障司機我們會盡量保障消費者的權益 這個我們會來努力委員這個建議很好 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我們請石部長還有我們這個房檢署杜署長有請杜立黃署長及石沉陽部長就業人長部長好"},{"start":18.407,"end":45.2,"text":"我想請問一下今年4月8號我們總統府這個國策顧問黃金順在媒體投書說113年通過這套這個能用藥品用於這個犬貓管理辦法是藥師獸醫師事主團體共同努力下推這個通過的過去的會議紀錄裡面你們在訂定這個管理辦法的時候藥師工會是不是強力要求人藥除登錄外全數回歸這個藥局來供應"},{"start":54.452,"end":62.16,"text":"包括委員,因為這個是雙部會選公告,那也會爭取到不管"},{"start":63.326,"end":84.43,"text":"還是他的身份比較特殊 你們不敢講不是 不是 這個制度的建立的時候 形成的時候其實還是會廣伸大家的意見好啦 當時我們陳俊吉部長跟薛立原前部長一起發布的我們看一下104年 民委會在公告的時候說獸醫師使用人用藥物可直接向藥商購買那108年1月"},{"start":88.451,"end":110.421,"text":"藥師公會這個藥師公建議書主張要留藥局重點在於說本會建議能用藥物用於犬貓及非經濟動物依法應納入藥師管理獸醫師則應居於這個診療治療之角色開立處房間再由獸醫師或向民眾向社區藥局取得藥物"},{"start":111.738,"end":130.073,"text":"那藥師秉持專業這個動物用藥的把關使得保障這個動物健康及全民用藥的環境就是113年通過的版本那獸醫師開藥 事主呢 然後去藥局領藥然後再拿回去給這個獸醫師治療嘛當時是這個黃金順是這個產務監事而且已經是內定的這個準理事長"},{"start":138.18,"end":156.228,"text":"那108年10月呢黃金順這個正式接任這個理事長之後呢接受媒體採訪的時候他說任期內他希望推動這個單軌制完成這個醫藥分業最後一塊拼圖對醫藥家透明化動物人用藥"},{"start":157.168,"end":170.937,"text":"中藥調劑問題都堅持他的看法他說沒有人比藥師更懂藥每一種藥都有配五進劑毛小孩用的藥應該由藥師做最後把關那我現在覺得你們會不會覺得"},{"start":173.504,"end":181.069,"text":"來的有點突然他說藥要留在藥局藥師把關結果你們113年的管理辦法就變了然後大數在114年與115年的營運重點就是將人用藥轉寵物用的櫃位制度化"},{"start":191.115,"end":205.594,"text":"目標是全台一千家的門市達成社區滲透力的極大化你們按照黃金順的這個指示從108年1月18日的建議書開始衛福部跟農業部就乖乖的就遵他的指示這樣辦理你不覺得很奇怪嗎"},{"start":207.858,"end":232.671,"text":"跟委員說明齁這個我剛剛已經提到說在動物治療上沒有所謂醫藥分業啦跟這個人用是不一樣藥師那個獸醫師是可以直接這個調劑提供治療因為你們第一齁你沒說這個獸醫的購藥權齁把104年的那個獸醫可直接買藥的草案直接這個就處理掉了齁那等於是把全台毛小孩用藥的採購權從獸醫院轉到了藥局嗎"},{"start":236.072,"end":253.826,"text":"也不是這樣就是說在這個獸醫他還是可以直接購藥沒有問題只是說在這個辦法裡面呢把這個人用藥品可以用於動物的呢把它分成兩種一種就是已經議定出來的這個700多種的藥裡面來申報為重度保護用藥的藥商可以直接購還有500多項沒進來你怎麼處理"},{"start":259.65,"end":288.475,"text":"沒有進來的原來的規定他就是變成會到藥局可是這個就會造成取得上面的一些方便性的問題所以現在才把他暫時把他停下來重新再檢討當然這個方便性上要把他提高財團他的計畫馬上跑得比你們還快所以你們會不會以後就照他們的版本這樣走您說的是哪一個版本就是他講的就是到這個各藥局去領藥"},{"start":289.485,"end":309.843,"text":"我們的目前的這個雙方討論的大概是雙軌制就是他也可以直接跟藥商叫藥那但是不足的地方也可以到藥局去拿好啦我希望你們兩個部會因為時間不過兩個部會在這件事情上真的可以替我們毛小孩的生命這個為出發點慎重來處理那另外我們請經貿辦"},{"start":317.174,"end":336.765,"text":"這個台美對等貿易協定就是ART的主文本這是最重要的法律框架內容涵蓋的關稅貿易這個數位貿易等那台美投資合作瞭解備忘錄MOU這是針對那五千億美元投資與半導體供應鏈合作的意向書沒錯吧"},{"start":338.769,"end":353.343,"text":"台美投資MOU是2500億的企業資助投資除了ART跟MOU2月12號在華府我們駐美代表談了幾個文件有多少份是換文還有多少是執行手冊"},{"start":355.936,"end":371.933,"text":"2月12號在華府簽的那個ART的全文都已經公佈在網路上那為什麼美國人的報告裡面這個MRT裡面可以精準預測我們要改的這個食安數據是不是你們早就私下簽下了協定還是你們已經答應人家要放水"},{"start":372.999,"end":387.188,"text":"跟委員說明就是說在相關的一些這個殘留標準部分呢我們跟國際去對接接軌所以應該所提的應該是指的是那個CODES的國際標準對你們都照他的標準嘛對不對"},{"start":388.709,"end":402.561,"text":"國際標準我們是希望在參考科學數據上包含非關稅的貿易壁壘就像檢驗標準、查驗方式、殘留容許量等等以及換文跟執行手冊這些內容未來會不會送立法院"},{"start":404.239,"end":426.149,"text":"我們會按照規定什麼規定就如果是需要涉及到修法的部分那當然我們就一定按照程序送到立法院因為條約締結法第三條寫得非常清楚只要涉及人民權利跟義務涉及法律變更它就是條約那如果按照美國的要求開放基改食品你剛剛講說這個不會進來對不對對"},{"start":430.19,"end":452.055,"text":"那開放這個放寬碼鈴薯檢疫等標準呢?還有來機的容許值呢?如果是這個萊克多巴胺的MRL的部分,這是在授權的法規,我們會按照法治程序來進行那是不是你們,他們是整包來談對不對?那你是不是整包來談的時候,你是不是整包要送到我們立法院來審議?來通過?"},{"start":454.602,"end":482.559,"text":"因為他的這個範圍非常涉及層面很廣向委員報告就是有關於這個台美對等貿易協定的部分那之前這個本院長官已經有說明就是說將來會這個會把ART連同MOU送到立法院審議那目前是因為美國最高法院的判決之後導致這個ART的內容可能需要做必要的調整之後才能夠再送到立法院所以目前我們是我們希望"},{"start":483.44,"end":503.135,"text":"不是說我們今天討論說你們改了什麼而是我想要知道說美國這個NTE報告裡到底要求什麼是不是應該跟我們國人來說明如果涉及到法規要修訂的部分我們也都是採取公開透明的方式你們讓我感覺到說如果美國這樣要求你們會偷偷地改"},{"start":504.002,"end":526.476,"text":"不會不會不會所有都是按照這個法定的程序來做那屬於這個食品農產品的項目查驗方式如果要改改成這個業者依循這個記錄的調整那就是記錄好的要這個降低標準然後逐匹檢查被要求取消邊境程序被要求降低干預這些內容沒有錯吧"},{"start":527.97,"end":534.518,"text":"應該是說回到我們的常規程序你們說今天你們報告裡面說邊境管理不便嘛對不對對"},{"start":536.158,"end":559.677,"text":"可是名稱不變 做法有沒有改變沒有沒有沒有完全一樣嗎對對對好 我們看這個萊克多巴胺好了這三月份公布的動物用藥殘留標準剛好跟美題的美國的這個MTE報告出爐差大概兩週那當然這份公告的這個PDF我們看一下朱聖這樣明明寫著0.04嘛那後來幾天美國那個報告確証這個我們台灣已經答應0.09了"},{"start":566.88,"end":578.485,"text":"是美國人說謊還是我們自己調的就你講的那個Codex那個嘛對不對三月我們沒有去調整這個任何的產有標準因為那個還要後續這是你們官方的公告喔"},{"start":582.974,"end":606.507,"text":"這個公告主要是針對那個名稱的部分去做調整而已還沒有涉及到那個殘留標準你剛剛的部分本來0.04嘛你現在變成0.09你們3月有一個公告可是不是在談那個殘留標準不是這個我們再跟委員釐清這個公告並不是在調殘留標準這個你們官方公布的我們去抓下來的"},{"start":608.485,"end":633.796,"text":"那個公佈前面都有一個修正重點那個只是名稱上的調整而已那個翻譯名稱啊牛也一樣嗎 未來牛也一樣嗎這個所有的ML的標準我們都會同時調整我們用Codex的這個標準還是未來你們自己有沒有最低容許值還是以後就照他的標準我們會除有特殊的情形不然我們都按照Codex的標準"},{"start":636.38,"end":653.706,"text":"特殊情形就是Codex的標準不不不Codex是一般國際的通用標準對啊你們碰到問題的時候就拿那個標準來跟我們講對不對那我們之前的設定的標準如果我們當時以前沒有設標準它就是零容許對不對"},{"start":655.734,"end":665.2,"text":"對就是因為沒有這個標準那現在我們就按照Codex標準對啊所以你們現在把方法改了啊不是嗎就是要按照我們盡量按照以前的規定以前規定那樣你們現在要這樣改"},{"start":668.748,"end":696.31,"text":"應該這麼說這個Codex的標準也是在2013年之後才有之前Codex也沒有標準是不是我們整個防線都改變了嗎是這樣嗎就因為關稅的關係因為國際的整個科學標準也在進步啦以前也是Codex沒有訂出標準Codex訂出標準之後我們來參考Codex的標準你可不可以在這些關稅之前你自己先訂一個標準不要等到這些東西來的時候你再去調整嘛"},{"start":696.874,"end":716.806,"text":"喔 也可以啊 反正我們目前的這個作業也在進行中那我再問一下 這個發芽的馬鈴薯可以吃嗎應該是看它的那個部位啦 看看部位啦什麼叫部位就是看它的情形 情形有嚴重有嚴重以前我們是驗到就整批推回去喔 那現在勒"},{"start":719.016,"end":744.171,"text":"這個應該是這樣現在我們在整個的農業部說這是防疫管理的問題現在發芽的馬鈴薯可以整批進口進入加工廠你知道嗎所以它是防疫呢還是食安標準我跟你講這個部分是在防疫因為抑壓劑運的過程中還是有發芽可能負壓可能就會必須要剔除以前發芽就是整批退回美國說不行嘛所以我們就改了嘛"},{"start":745.575,"end":767.608,"text":"就改到去加工嘛那你加工的話你認為它是安全的食品嗎我們是從源頭先要求管理就是在美國境內處理的時候就要經過檢疫他們進來怎麼樣我不知道但是進來台灣的海關我們碰到這個問題我們怎麼處理我們就整批封存然後呢那麼到一個這個特定的加工處所去做剔除"},{"start":769.603,"end":796.643,"text":"你們以前看到風險就直接擋嘛你們現在看到風險進來再說這個很多其他的國家都是這樣做就是到一個加工的地方去做剔除馬鈴薯只是其中一個案未來我認為你們所有的明天會不會有其他的這些問題部長我希望你做好你專業的這個工作去把這個事情把關我們都為國人的健康做把關好 謝謝部長謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":799.59,"end":800.236,"text":"謝謝邱政軍委的質詢"}]}},{"id":"168553","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168553","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ec77822e2e6eae37842df9b855b11db354b0245b1feb43225bca6d85ad377ff842b47c36b40ae4e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳超明","委員發言時間":"10:48:11 - 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啊 招委啊"},{"start":203.221,"end":225.011,"text":"所以你要看得出來,你看這個召委這樣子你覺得怎麼樣?設計很周到,我說給你了解一下,運動比賽要出勁的,還要出力的,所以你真的要感謝我們的邱召委,你看他紅光滿面,所以他天天有運動才有這樣的結果。"},{"start":228.1,"end":246.553,"text":"第二個你說運動產業化又找了產業發展史那我現在也不知道說產業發展史跟運動要如何結合然後我們產業發展史你大概找你過來一定有用意有目的我們要如何來支持運動部你有什麼看法我們請我們"},{"start":249.595,"end":271.59,"text":"合作處啊 因為這跟你有關的 你看產業技術師也來 國營事業也來 還有產業發展室還有商業發展室 這就是有錢的單位 在民間的力量很大你要怎樣來支持 配合我們運動部啊 這個叫做什麼 今天的主題啊"},{"start":272.21,"end":274.111,"text":"產業的規劃那個運動部產業發展所我剛剛看了還有運動產業發展中心的鄭董事長"},{"start":287.593,"end":311.401,"text":"這樣處長你先解釋我來問鄭董事長今天召委把這幾個單位找過來經濟部也找過來國家發展委員會也找過來教育部也找過來從來的陣仗沒有這麼大好幾個部會在一起所以去召委執席真的不錯不錯你很有前途希望來"},{"start":313.015,"end":318.061,"text":"你要怎麼來叫人找幫忙,這樣簡單來講事情今天有經濟部來了,有經濟部的產業室如果要跟運動來就好"},{"start":324.492,"end":345.631,"text":"你告訴我 因為你是產業嘛發展中心 我看你的理論在哪裡啊好 謝謝委員我們很重要的產業的發展 必須要把需求端跟供應端還有環境做起來那我們第一個就是從運動的產業跟產值所在如果以我們六千多億來看 運動的製造"},{"start":348.113,"end":370.267,"text":"還有運動的零售大概就佔了將近七成那剩下的大概兩成多到三成是服務業啦那如果這樣的提升來看有幾個是發展從蛋黃你覺得要從哪幾個地方發展因為時間快要到了只需要站起來了那就是競技運動有運動明星的部分讓他能夠關賽"},{"start":372.088,"end":384.385,"text":"推動粉絲的經濟帶動那第二個是往全民運動的部分那就找有運動的族群比較大來推動你現在覺得哪個運動的族群比較大如果從運動的職業運動來看職棒"},{"start":388.911,"end":415.573,"text":"職籃是比較大那其次是在企業聯賽像排球等等這個是整個接棒上來那如果從休閒運動來看族群比較大的是像我們的不需要場地的馬拉松還有路跑這些會先那其次大概是所謂的球類運動揮擊式的羽球網球等等大家講說運動產業很大要如何去辦法完成一個真正的產業鏈"},{"start":417.254,"end":421.618,"text":"當然台灣為什麼會在外面譬如騎腳踏車我們腳踏車王國還有滑鞋啦什麼什麼那是叫做產業台灣有的當然我們要繼續發揚光大我現在那叫做世界盃那叫做勝利"},{"start":433.387,"end":457,"text":"但是你台灣自己本土裡面你怎樣去推展整個要結合在一起的產業我很快跟委員報告第一個就是我們運動去結合像製造業的自行車或是高爾夫球桿讓它從數位轉型有人工智慧跟科技的導入往服務化走第二個才是創新的服務我一行今天講了運動部來到這邊"},{"start":459.821,"end":481.818,"text":"我們苗栗很多的運動場 國小國中運動場都還沒鋪完成我麻煩一下 特別照顧 進來運動部那最基礎的小朋友的運動場所一定要安全 一定要弄好我這個特別的拜託 有沒有困難我們一起來努力跟這裡的教育部 我就不知道運動部對這個有關心嗎"},{"start":483.579,"end":498.1,"text":"有啊 一定有啊好 一定有 表示我今天跟你說的 你會做的事啊是不是我們一起來努力發展這樣說你太模糊了啦 你拼命把它做光了 有沒有這才是模糊 你說我全力來幫忙 不對嗎"},{"start":499.642,"end":520.899,"text":"我們一直努力好不好這個再拜託一下還有一點這個很不公平台灣的體育人才幾乎在鄉下結果我們培養到小學之中培養起來結果好的人才都跑到六讀高中他們有錢就把這些人挖草這樣你說要怎麼推展體育"},{"start":523.294,"end":550.195,"text":"在有錢的六都啊裡面他們都一直挖角那我們培養辛辛苦苦培養結果那個成果的時候摘果實的時候不是我們原來的發展地都在六都啊啊你聽有辦法改變如果像地方上它確實有一種運動產業非常好的時候市長你多等你啊這個要如何改善跟解決這個問題很嚴重啊"},{"start":551.724,"end":577.619,"text":"我們有看到這樣的狀況,這也是為什麼我們現在在推動的基層上面我們希望基層的運動能夠再強你那個要保重因為六都的企業家多,我們那邊企業家少所以我們今天去跟他們說說,老闆要跟他們講話,你們要幫忙找人不要只有六都人口多,你就把他補助多一點,不合理啦這個世界不公平啦好不好,好謝謝"},{"start":580.305,"end":581.911,"text":"謝謝,謝謝陳教練委員,多讓你多講幾分鐘"}]}},{"id":"168552","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168552","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ec77822e2e6eae3ce93a0e36e9b201444e7435d00e8512025bca6d85ad377ffeb3679e204ee1bbe5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"10:46:35 - 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謝謝主席我想echo一下甘煌主任我在學校是教國文學生來問我性評我可能也只能回答到60分確實是一個很痛苦的困境大家好 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network如果这个是很重要设计人际观社会互动人际网络的话从交友软体也好从这些网络上的资讯也好我们如何确保可以积极的协助他们再来就是关于性病的污名化这件事情"},{"start":315.385,"end":331.422,"text":"我們看到有相關的醫生告訴我們很多孩子在第一次被發現感染性病之後他可能不願意或是不想不敢害怕再回去就診所以可能相關性病的資料就繼續變在那邊卡在那邊"},{"start":331.963,"end":356.465,"text":"然後如果他沒有回診但是他如果還是持續有性行為的話他當然就極度容易造成高度的傳染而這件事情確實在全面性教育裡面我們覺得是重要的但是如果你去問身邊的大人大家對於性病的汙名化難道不嚴重嗎我認為非常的嚴重所以這也是阻礙了孩子們在得到性病之後不願意回診不願意尋求大人協助一個很重要的困境"},{"start":357.165,"end":375.283,"text":"好这是另外一个性病的问题再来我们也看到很多第一线的老师在推性别平等教育这么多年之后非常积极的努力不管是刚黄老师说的融入自己的科目里面或者是单独的性别平等课程里面努力的想要跟孩子分享非常多资讯跟正确的知识但是"},{"start":376.104,"end":401.704,"text":"可能就會被家長誤判例如說在2017年就曾經有老師以假的洋具還有保險套進行性別平等教育但是卻被家長檢舉說這是公然違憲我要說這對老師來說情何以堪但還好當時檢察官的調查後是不予起訴可是我認為相關的案件已經對現場老師的教學造成很大的震盪跟干擾很多老師寧可"},{"start":402.825,"end":419.35,"text":"後續就選擇更保守更消極的態度面對性別平等教育或是面對全面性教育這件事情所以我認為教育部今天四長親自出席我們希望把相關的資訊帶給教育部不論是全面性教育或性別平等教育甚至我們剛剛講到的性病"},{"start":419.87,"end":435.856,"text":"其實都是現在的孩子們所面臨的第一線的挑戰而這些挑戰當然也會影響到身邊的大人那再來我要說大專院校的部分因為可能很多人會聚焦在中小學是關於教育的部分但是大專院校的性平運作我們現在發現有很大的問題例如說"},{"start":438.357,"end":456.071,"text":"我們辦公室簡單訪問了已經離職性評會承辦人告訴我們現場的一些問題第一個大專院校性評會面對最大的問題是錢不夠所以人留不住大部分的大專院校是不願意把預算人事費撥給性評會多數的大專院校性評會只有一個或是半個"},{"start":456.832,"end":476.843,"text":"承辦人也就是半個的意思就是說他同時要做別的業務但是要這樣的人力扛起一所學校的性平相關的工作當然留不住人才所以在相關的調查或是處理程序這個承辦人承擔了最大的壓力他可能就是一個人要面對很多很多人甚至他可能就不小心成為當事人的劍把"},{"start":477.563,"end":500.716,"text":"他成为了要服务很多人的情绪劳动所以我要说目前大专院校里面没有对于性别性别评等事件承办人的支持系统而这些职业创伤也要这些承办人自行来面对还有我知道教育部虽然会办很多性评会承办人的培训跟研习可是这些研习对已经在现场劳动过度过度的承办人来说"},{"start":501.916,"end":527.737,"text":"時間可能很難搭得上甚至相關的內容是他們的需求而當他們的過度勞動問題沒有被解決的時候其實再多的培訓跟研習對他們來說只是壓垮他們的另外一個稻草所以我要說現行的性平平等教育法26條雖然規定性平安行為人的懲處但是方式並沒有到很強制再加上學校的人力行政人力不足很難以追蹤也沒有相關的講師費沒有相關的教材"},{"start":529.699,"end":555.601,"text":"导致矫正的成果跟效果一样令人堪忧好我今天讲了这么多我认为后续不论是修法或者是行政端可以有什么支持从小学到中学到大学我认为都需要大家一起努力我要再次谢谢今天出席的所有专家学者也谢谢你们在第一线积极的协助不论是小学生国中生高中生或是大学生我想立法院有立法院该做的事情这是我们后续会继续努力的谢谢主席"}]}},{"id":"168551","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168551","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ec77822e2e6eae3cdbf5fc9b843436761f404ecbec9cddc25bca6d85ad377ffac6f5c410dd661785ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王安祥","委員發言時間":"10:47:01 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早 委員長這個 我想最近中東的情勢其實非常詭譎今天早上 好像川普又講了另外又講了不一樣的東西我想所以今天這個我想這個非常重要來感謝詹委召集那我今天要問的比較特殊其實在你們的報告裡面其實在第九頁也有其實有關於人道援助的部分我想這一次其實這個中東的情勢"},{"start":41.298,"end":57.871,"text":"聯合國他們已經說了啦他們覺得這個衝突加劇尤其在081那邊已經大概有百萬人流離失所了而且他說這個裡面有37萬名是兒童我想這應該符合我們現在人道援助的一個標準了吧是"},{"start":59.892,"end":78.36,"text":"那當然我們對於世界上面所有的地方發生戰災等等的,而導致的流亡失所或是相關人道的狀況,我們都一向是願意伸出援手。當然是說我們也要尋求適當的管道如何去提供相關的人道協助。"},{"start":78.9,"end":102.047,"text":"對 所以現在不管是糧食計畫他們都提供了一些糧食的緊急援助甚至連心理支援其實都有另外像醫療當然更不用講了目前大概醫療物資有非常非常多而且支援他們大概幾百位上千位的一些患者接受一些治療然後社會組織還聯合聯合國基金會跟聯合國基金會也運了大概35萬對關鍵的物資過去"},{"start":106.388,"end":133.406,"text":"那我也有看了一下這個外交部過去的這個整個預算的部分我這邊手上大概114年度我們在那個科目03的部分其實對於這個部分包含這個所謂國際之關懷救援之重建這個部分其實編了蠻多的預算那我不曉得現在外部有沒有比較具體的一些作為的打算我們請一下那個亞非市是不是能夠就我們就那委員是要討論說中東地區的話"},{"start":137.269,"end":152.751,"text":"跟委員報告好了,在中東地區的話,我們之前是有提供一些巴勒斯坦的一些援助,主要也是透過國際的非政府組織。對,大家都通過這個廣告。"},{"start":153.732,"end":179.11,"text":"那所以說就是有一些人道的援助的話也要看有沒有適當的一些NGO來協助我們再來做對 是這樣因為我會問這一題其實我不曉得外交部應該有掌握到韓國他上個月其實整個禮拜那邊他大概就捐了大概兩百萬美金那今天早上就昨天晚上的這個新聞他沒有宣布大概透過這個紅十字"},{"start":180.7,"end":195.403,"text":"的這個國際委員會來 因為捐了大概50萬的美金所以因為今天我們的主題也跟我們亞太關係有關係嘛看起來我們的鄰國 韓國他們這個動作倒是蠻主動的所以我才問說外交部有沒有比較確定今期的一些作為"},{"start":196.604,"end":223.911,"text":"那因為這個黎巴嫩當然是最近這個大家關注到是不是有一些人道救援的這個需求那這個部分其實是我們駐約旦代表處那我們也可以來研究今天我看到這個標題因為他的標題下說什麼這個南韓宣布外交部特使前往其實這個跟國際關係有一些非常微妙的一些狀況所以我才會問外交部的一個立場"},{"start":225.071,"end":253.371,"text":"那外部立場是說我們也可以啊我們都隨時都準備而且我們不管是在從這個政府的立場但政府我們外交部還是受限於這個預算的規模啦因為現在整個我們的預算的狀況還是沒辦法就還是沿用原來的這個預算嘛那如果說新的預算能夠通過我們可能有比較對這個應該可以沿用一些嘛因為這個我看起來沿用的部分我們再來研究看看但是另外一個我們會跟"},{"start":254.351,"end":273.869,"text":"這個民間的NGO組織比如說慈濟等等我們知道慈濟在全球都是有非常強烈的所以次郎是不是有一些比較明確的也可以提供我們辦公室大概作為一個參考沒問題好 那另外一個就是其實昨天這個應該是拉美斯吧就是昨天的記者會好像有特別提到這件事就是這個洪都拉斯"},{"start":275.01,"end":293.261,"text":"這個我覺得這個昨天是一個很好的一個訊息啊感覺說他們當一月的時候就有在提啊我覺得這個過去我們的邦交我們2023跟他3月嘛 跟他斷交不過現在看起來好像機會很好啊那個市長是不是可以趁這個機會再跟大家說明一下這個狀況 紅布拉斯的部分"},{"start":295.672,"end":310.454,"text":"是 謝謝委員那個洪都拉斯最近的狀況是他們的媒體啊是一直在報導就是它南部的這個白蝦產業的崩潰是 好像跟那個中國有關係嘛對不對對 因為建交以後洪都拉斯跟中國建交以後"},{"start":310.954,"end":337.426,"text":"他們以為中國會允諾採購替代台灣採購那實際上2025年最後的數據統計我們雖然已經跟他沒有自由貿易協定恢復關稅我們的採購量還是中國的七倍所以中國所有的承諾已經變成一個幻影那我跟市長就一下我們查到一些資料好像他們的人過去的蠻多人跟過去相較來說好像過去的紅豆大師很多的人過去不曉得是金山還是什麼樣這個狀況市長應該也有掌握吧"},{"start":340.792,"end":360.029,"text":"這樣子這個中國跟一些國家在就是我們前友邦建交以後他們會大量的開始做傾銷然後利用各種的狀況他有一些商人過去經營所以市長意思是說雖然人都派過去可是看起來他們的經貿雙方就所謂利差的部分好像並沒有獲得很明顯的改善"},{"start":360.849,"end":379.681,"text":"對 其實實際上大家都很清楚跟中國的貿易逆差是逐漸擴大是 因為又提到另外一件議會的結構我看起來不管是他們這個國家黨或者是自由黨這樣合起來好像都是多數啦這看起來跟我們這個外交的關係看起來是非常有機會啦不曉得次長跟次長"},{"start":380.701,"end":393.56,"text":"這個是不是樂觀看待我們在這個上面我們審慎的樂觀那麼我們也知道說在國會裡面有強烈的一個支持他的這個議長副議長都紛紛的發言表示支持感覺真的是蠻有機會的"},{"start":396.985,"end":411.205,"text":"在這個事情上我跟委員報告還是有一個很大的一個障礙就是說因為跟中國建交之後那麼現在的是政府也要去盤點跟了解他們之前的前任的政府在卡士蘇的時候簽下了多少的這個協約"},{"start":412.827,"end":429.5,"text":"那這個東西會不會斷交跟中國如果改變邦交的時候會不會直接影響衝擊他的經濟當然他跟我們說需要一些時間那我們的外交上面當然是說一直都是特殊的一個處境我們都有非常彈性的一個作為"},{"start":430.2,"end":452.2,"text":"所以一定願意給那些有意跟我們做朋友的一些時間也提供我們需要的一個協助能夠幫他buffer掉一些這個可能經濟的問題所以我們也希望這個不管是國內的我們所有人都對這個事情非常關注我們希望很快可以聽到一些比較更正向的消息感謝我們一起來期待很快有好消息好 感謝謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"168550","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168550","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ec77822e2e6eae34b5b578bff7aac5161f404ecbec9cddc25bca6d85ad377ff85564259685e84df5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"10:37:26 - 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謝謝主席 有請次長 謝謝請陳次長委員好好 次長好那這個就是這次電子的入境卡那對方看起來是把那個欄位先暫時就是不需要再填上去那我想知道的事情就是說這個整個溝通的過程因為現在看起來是有一個好的結果"},{"start":24.87,"end":45.052,"text":"那這整個溝通的過程因為中間我們在詢問的時候呢也不好讓這一個外交部就直接公開說我們就是應該要怎麼處理或什麼之類這個都在外交上可能不是那麼好的事但現在因為告一個段落所以我想知道就是說在因為這個時間算是蠻長的那這個整個溝通的過程當中遇到了什麼阻礙那我們的方法是什麼"},{"start":46.316,"end":70.289,"text":"報告委員,那麼在這個過程之中我們也提醒了這個韓方必須要基於兩邊人民密切的往來這個事實上面能夠正視我們國家的一個適當的稱呼所以在這個交涉的過程裡面我們對韓方表達了這樣的一個東西但是我說一個實在的就是說在這個事情上面我們必須要務實以對那麼韓方一樣面對到中國非常大的一個壓力"},{"start":70.749,"end":93.516,"text":"所以我們希望在這件事情上面我們心裡面我們知道這樣一個什麼回事但是我們都給予韓方一個空間就是需要一些時間來做一個調整那我們對於這個韓國現在推出的這個相當程度上面這個便利旅客的這個相關的一個務實的一個做法我們是感覺到是歡迎這樣的一個做法"},{"start":94.016,"end":110.753,"text":"那麼我們也會持續的滾動檢討我們跟這個韓國的這個關係是不是在其他的方面能夠得到好的一個提升尤其是說我們都是在同樣在這個區域的國家我們跟這個韓國那麼有密切的一個往來同樣的一個安全的一個圖像"},{"start":111.814,"end":133.482,"text":"同樣的這個民間的這個不管是教育文化各種方面的一個交流我們跟韓邦明確的表達我們重視這個東西我們正視這個東西也希望韓邦一樣的來value這樣的一個事情所以我們感覺到很好的是說我們把這樣一個訴求給韓邦那麼他們也在務實的一個考慮之下那麼來做了一個相對應的一個調整韓邦"},{"start":135.683,"end":152.007,"text":"基於這樣一個行政簡化的考慮來做一個他們的電子路徑卡的調整那我們覺得這是一個非常好的作為我們也歡迎這樣的一個做法那麼我們也了解這個過程之中"},{"start":152.54,"end":169.223,"text":"那麼裡面所牽涉到的很多的這個部分那麼這很棒的這個東西我想這一個很多的這個內部的一個種種那也牽涉到兩邊的這個互動交往的一個秘密我們就不詳述但是我們看到是一個正面的一個結果是好的"},{"start":169.703,"end":193.681,"text":"對 因為我覺得就是說 這個次長剛剛我覺得講的有一個觀念是很好的就是說呢 我們是會強調我們在跟他們期待不管是文化啦 教育啦 等等之類的一個交流這個交流是持續的 我們不會說因為一個單一事件然後就是說 那其他的交流我們是不是要停止我們現在目前的做法是點對點就是說 他今天做的是跟國民有關的所以我們之前也有放出來說 欸 我們是不是也要做跟國民有關"},{"start":194.341,"end":215.396,"text":"那這件事情重要是因為我看到很多人當然可能因為這個事件對韓國產生了一些不滿的情緒那這個情緒呢在外交上面我們不能讓它蔓延到其他的領域因為畢竟整件事情始作俑者一定都還是中國嘛所以說這都是跟中國有關的打壓才會有這樣的一個境界那我們今天如果人民有這樣的一個情緒的時候我們應該把它導引到告訴大家講說"},{"start":216.477,"end":230.717,"text":"這是中國的問題這是中國在施壓的問題我們要去找那個源頭我們在讓他們他們自己也要丟那個源頭我們也要所以在這個基礎之下怎麼去使它改變這個其實是外交上的藝術我說有一些當然就慢慢在這邊講"},{"start":232.199,"end":252.751,"text":"這也是為什麼中國在世界上面被視之為一個不良的一個影響,一個non-influence的原因就是在這個地方。它常常會把自己的意志強加在這個國際思維上面,企圖顛覆那麼以規則為基礎的國際思維。那我想這個在跟中國交往過程,在這幾年我想世界上主要的國家都越來越有清楚的認識了。"},{"start":253.892,"end":281.293,"text":"那接下來就是說因為丹麥現在我們也是在溝通當中那之前這一個部長在講的時候是說那其實呢他更像是其中幾位就是這個官僚體系裡面的成員的堅持那這件事情的進度呢這個相關的一個進度我們在上次取消若干他們駐台的一個特權我們雙方都還在接觸在談的過程裡面那麼詳細我們是不是請我們的歐洲司稍微再做一個簡要的報告"},{"start":283.872,"end":300.599,"text":"我們除了取消他的特權禮遇我想我們還會進一步來限縮雙方現在都還在溝通之中我們的一些朋友包括國會議員包括媒體的朋友丹麥媒體的朋友也都非常清楚的表達對台灣的支持"},{"start":301.099,"end":318.187,"text":"我們希望持續的這個予以單方壓力對 因為我看丹麥的這些媒體還有人民他們其實對這件事情並不是直接站在就是這一個政府的丹麥政府的那一方所以我覺得這個可能是一些官僚體系上的一些溝通這個就再請這一個黃世昌再多加把勁就是"},{"start":321.708,"end":345.896,"text":"看能不能嘗試把它扭轉過來一定一定我們現在是說這相關的這個東西我們都有這個他說要透過各方面的一個努力那我們知道說丹麥的民意其實是支持台灣的所以是說在這個基礎之上我們要動員各種有我的力量能夠促成他們做一個好的一個改變好謝謝那我接下來要問經濟部是有請這個經濟部的主秘謝謝"},{"start":352.145,"end":373.096,"text":"因為時間的因素我就比較快速的問就是說有兩次一次就是在4月8號大概是一個禮拜以前那時候說我們預計4月有4艘郵輪共約8萬桶的原油自鴻海陸續輸出那這件事情跟之前再更早一點是3月多的時候那個時候這個富比士雜誌有說台灣最多是撐個100天左右等等之類的"},{"start":377.578,"end":394.137,"text":"因為從3月20一直到剛剛講的這個4月8號然後一直到現在因為這個是每天都在變化那目前最新的狀況評估是如何我們這些我們的不管是我們的存量這些到底有沒有可能如期的到達台灣然後如期到達台灣那有沒有更多目前經濟部的評估如何"},{"start":394.717,"end":416.576,"text":"跟委員報告其實二月底中東戰爭開始以來其實進一步我們就馬上成立能源應變小組而且是每天開會因為我們次長每天召集向中油相關的一個機關那我們細到程度包含向委員關心的我們會掌握我們現在從到目前我們已經掌握到六月底我們可以需要本來從那個會經過橫浦之海峽的傳輸有多少"},{"start":419.378,"end":448.278,"text":"那因為這些因素他可能沒有辦法順利出口我們替代的來源包含除了剛剛講委員所提到我們從中東地區換其他的出口點之外我們會找其他非中東地區所以我們現在已經完全掌握到六月底我們本來需要經過某座海峽的一個船隻的一個替代方案所以六月底目前所有的來源都已經掌握得非常清楚而且可以穩定供應而且不影響原來的安全存量OK那因為這個戰事到底會怎樣我們都抓不得準嘛"},{"start":448.658,"end":467.825,"text":"那即使我們今天像聽起來到六月底這個目前是安全的但因為油價這種事情更多的是預期的心理那一旦有這些預期的心理的影響等等之類的波動我知道我們現在也是每個禮拜都有這個物價這個穩定的這個波動的這個小組要做應對那因為畢竟在台灣會需要用油的"},{"start":469.086,"end":483.465,"text":"司機們還有職業駕駛等等之類的所以現在我是在想說就是經濟部這一邊如果是針對一些就是職業駕駛它一定程度的一些補助等等之類的這個目前是不是已經有在規劃"},{"start":485.026,"end":501.093,"text":"其實我們已經連續兩週動漲我們的油價了那其實這已經是我們針對油價會對國內剛剛提到的就是職業價值或甚至對國內整體物價可能影響的一個因應措施因為我們也觀察到其他國家也是擔心他們"},{"start":502.333,"end":520.105,"text":"油價對物價影響所以很多國家也都是在掌控他們國內相關油價或是石油原料所衍生的相關產品的一個售價那目前國內的做法其實也會朝穩定國內物價方向來努力對 這個是指供給面嘛就是說供給面這邊的價格我們想要把它穩定嘛"},{"start":520.365,"end":541.194,"text":"我講的是另外一方面就是需求的這一方那需求的這一方他有多少的補助或者說他有沒有什麼方案可以搭配這個對他對於未來的這個安全感一定會有加強所以這個部分雖然因為時間的關係可能沒有辦法把它問完但是可能之後我會想再知道就是說我們在需求面這一邊我們對他們的幫助有沒有一些比較制度化的做法"},{"start":541.567,"end":560.048,"text":"好 委員提醒這塊其實是一道交通部他針對有關職業價值所以我們會 委員的建議我們可以來跟交通部來研議看看職業價值在這一塊他們實際面臨的壓力那有沒有需要進一步這邊來跟交通部合作的一個政策好 沒問題到時候我們就在跨部會再來討論這件事情是好 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168549","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168549","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ec77822e2e6eae3f18df23555f16f0a354b0245b1feb43225bca6d85ad377ff328f139af069e70d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝衣鳯","委員發言時間":"10:31:09 - 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好 謝謝 謝謝兩位好 我想要就教一下我們再請那個誰那個國發會業主委來好了因為次長也在這裡運動部的次長在這裡我們想請教一下國發會現在在研議"},{"start":361.4,"end":382.138,"text":"你要鬆綁運動就業金卡的資格那我想要請問你具體放寬的目標是什麼那是針對教練而已還是防護員還是其他像剛才次長所提到的具有數據分析能力的運動科學人才呢"},{"start":382.599,"end":393.14,"text":"基本上我們會建議運動部就是從運動員、教練、裁判甚至運動產業人才都進行鬆綁全部都進去那次長在這裡,次長你覺得呢?"},{"start":395.492,"end":423.442,"text":"主委現在說了他希望放寬的是不管是運動員教練還有裁判還有這個就是具有分析能力的運動科學人才有沒有辦法我們當然會歡迎只要任何專業人才會不會協助啊會不會協助啊一定會協助因為任何專業人才可以進到台灣來協助我們共同發展運動產業我們都會支持你們也是希望說朝這個方向是不是這個方向是共同的嗎還是只有國發會主委"},{"start":424.662,"end":444.664,"text":"不會啊 只要是專業人才我們都歡迎你們都會支持嘛 是不是好 那我想要請問喔那如果我們引入了這樣子的一個人才同時喔來到台灣那會不會對於本土選手還有本土國內人才有排擠的"},{"start":446.368,"end":467.926,"text":"跟委員報告這個部分是不會有排擠的因為我們那個就業金卡基本上是用外籍人士所以基本上對於國內的那些是不會有任何排擠的不會有排擠喔最後我還有一個問題就叫給我一點時間我就叫一下我們主委跟市長你們兩個都在這裡喔川普他上節目的時候說"},{"start":469.187,"end":492.023,"text":"美伊戰爭快要結束了中東風土快要結束了16日就要和談了我想就教兩位可能性高不高對台灣的石油天然氣以及煤礦的影響會不會讓我們現在飽受中油台電要吸收的這個成本會不會降低"},{"start":493.221,"end":513.421,"text":"跟委員報告就好像我兩三個禮拜前在這邊做的那個業務報告一樣就是說美國智庫預估是四周到八周所以還是在那個評估的範圍之內目前還在評估的範圍那我沒有我現在是要就教如果16號就停火了那對於目前我們"},{"start":515.385,"end":533.964,"text":"這個天然氣、石油相關的成本的吸收會不會降低多少等一下我們也請次長回答第一個就是說委員我想也非常關注這個問題那你也可以看到今天的天然氣或者是原油不管是布蘭特原油或是西德州原油它的價格都一直在下降"},{"start":534.665,"end":552.135,"text":"那所以很多預測機構都預期啦這個戰事應該在短期之內會結束那假如是短期之內會結束的話對於我們的CPI的影響其實是會相當有限那對於我們的經濟成長來講的話也不會有太大的影響不會有不會不會就是說"},{"start":553.195,"end":572.625,"text":"就是至少我們的CPI不會再上升了嗎?物價不會再上升上去了嗎?因為可能就是說物價會有一些遞延效果啦那這個戰爭是從2月底開始所以那個遞延效果會慢慢的可能啦可能會發生在4月但是假如說暫時在4月就好像我們預估在4月16號結束的話那一個整個市場反應會充分的反映到那個CPI的那個指數上面"},{"start":579.548,"end":602.887,"text":"應該是不會對全年的CPI來講的話應該是不會有大幅上升的可能好 那次長回答一下對中油台電呢是 當然我們會持續觀察就是說這個部分也許短時間之內要能夠恢復到這2月28號以前的那個油價可能我覺得是有困難但是我們會觀察就是說整個國際的那你們中油還有台電吸收成本會不會"},{"start":604.668,"end":616.933,"text":"會不會降低?這個會跟油價的這個波動會有關係所以也許如果油價有下降的話那當然就是我們中油的這個成本大概就會降低"}]}},{"id":"168562","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168562","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ec77822e2e6eae3597313e2656be653354b0245b1feb432f584cb79d4e23178cd073220c318363b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"11:07:07 - 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我要講這個不是說進來不用簽證啦我是說我們希望他能夠進來那我也希望說如果有機會他當然能夠留在台灣所以國發會不是只有發卡機構嘛對不對我們希望國發會"},{"start":168.025,"end":182.36,"text":"國發會你必須要跟比如說相關的部會來做一個結合比如說我們有跟這一個經濟部也好跟這個運動部也好然後跟勞動部也好跟教育部也好我們來做一個結合嘛那做一個結合之後就希望說"},{"start":183.081,"end":204.298,"text":"拿到就業金卡的今天不論是運動員或是其他的剛剛主委也有提到說除了這個運動員之外甚至連防護員跟運動產業相關的人員我們也希望他們如果意願我們就協助他拿這個就業金卡所以不是只有拿卡就是未來我們希望他們留在台灣我覺得這才是最重要的對台灣的運動相關的產業才有這個顯著的幫助"},{"start":208.801,"end":232.651,"text":"因為我們國發會也有一個Talent Taiwan這樣的一個辦公室我們Talent Taiwan其實最主要的一個目的就是在協助所有的外籍人士在台灣能夠安穩的落地這樣子在這邊落地生根對 因為其實齁 這個之前委員有關心過我們關於這個運動產業這方面的申請就業金卡比例很低1%左右嘛 對不對"},{"start":234.171,"end":261.23,"text":"那所以是大家認為說這個台灣不動市運動產業這一塊嗎那還是說在申請這方面遇到什麼樣的困難沒有因為就我的資料來講的話目前申請運動這個領域申請到就業金卡大概有32個人那我們未來啦希望就是運動部可以的話一年是不是能夠達到100人這樣一個KPI那請運動部來說明一下這個主委有這個KPI值那運動部來說明一下"},{"start":262.995,"end":281.389,"text":"我們當然會結合產業的需求也不是隨便就找外國人進來當然啦一定進來的時候對我們的產業、對我們的專業有所提升、有所幫助的人這我都知道但我的意思是說主委有這一個這個意思是說希望能夠引進百位的這個運動產業的相關人員能夠進來那運動部做了什麼樣的準備"},{"start":285.592,"end":293.187,"text":"主席你今天的這個題目非常的好所以呢我必須這個題目要多講一點我也稱讚一下我們主席給我多一些時間20秒來"},{"start":297.389,"end":321.672,"text":"我們其實還是從我們的人力的需求上面我們的第一個大方向就是進來的這一個人一定是可以幫助我們提升本土的發展這我當然知道啦我是說這一個剛剛主委有提到這個100位我是說那你們覺得有機會達成嗎這個需要透過各方面去尋采不是我們單方面說要有多少好 OK 那請這一個主委"},{"start":323.38,"end":349.471,"text":"我幫忙補充一下就是說以往32位大部分都是在運動員那我們現在這一次的話是希望不只是運動員教練裁判尤其是運動產業人才這個部分的話我們希望能夠大幅度的一個增加這樣的譬如說我們可以增加運動科研數據分析醫療防護以及經理管理等專業後勤人力所以假如說把這些都納進來的話"},{"start":350.811,"end":377.287,"text":"一百位的話應該是有機會達成的主委這樣講就比較具體嘛那我最後再問一個就是說你們說要協助運動部來申請主題式的百億基金這個現在具體的這個方向或是具體的做法怎麼樣現在目前就是等那個運動部把它的辦法公告之後的話那就送到我們國發會這邊那我們在國發會的管理會裡面就會開始討論那預計要多久因為是你們要協助他們嘛預計多久這一個百億基金"},{"start":379.968,"end":406.302,"text":"這一個主題是專門運動這方面的運動部預計在五月初完成公告接下來的話我們會盡快在最近這一次的管理會上面就把他排進來好啦我希望上半年至少先有一個粗略的這個出來讓大家了解一下未來看要怎麼樣去協助我們的運動產業好不好好謝謝委員謝謝主席被你稱讚了一下讓你多了"}]}},{"id":"168561","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168561","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ec77822e2e6eae39bc28fe247f5a5fd61f404ecbec9cddcf584cb79d4e23178dff3bbbc96e0e24c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃建賓","委員發言時間":"10:54:53 - 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其實目前台塑事實上他因為他取得原油價格的來源跟取得原油的價格來源部分都受到影響所以其實適度他有做一些影響他有適度做一些減產不過我們因為要穩定國內供應部分我們一直在希望台塑以減少外銷跟穩定國內的需求為主那至於針對台塑的部分呢我想我們在這段時間完之後我們會再討論跟"},{"start":241.467,"end":255.727,"text":"所以目前是沒有補台塑之外我們是沒有補貼的其實目前中油部分也都還沒有補因為剛講的是我們未來希望能夠執行的方向也希望立法院這邊能夠支持我們對中油的協助措施"},{"start":256.98,"end":273.505,"text":"謝謝主委這樣說明因為其實大家都很關心就是未來的這個物價會不會因為這樣子調上去而且物價一旦上去之後要回來就不容易了那另外就是提到就是說經濟部也提到說我們這週開始就會提供平價垃圾袋"},{"start":275.205,"end":297.583,"text":"那本期這邊強調說台東縣是偏鄉然後又是整個銷售的末端那比較因為我們的需求量較其他的縣市少而被忽略也希望這部分能夠供應到台東縣這樣的需求是 謝謝委員提醒我想每個縣市我們都會絕對讓民眾可以買到平價的那個垃圾袋好 謝謝謝謝主秘 接下來我們請我們的外交部次長請陳次長"},{"start":303.783,"end":320.917,"text":"國元好 市長好 市長我們總統府宣布4月22到4月26我們要率團總統要率團拜訪我們的友邦史瓦帝尼那史瓦帝尼是中國民國在非洲唯一的邦交國 是從1968年建交到現在對我們非常的忠貞跟忠誠"},{"start":322.218,"end":341.871,"text":"58年所以這個本席非常支持那過去我們陳水扁執政時期有推動這個叫新洋專案就透過拜訪中南美洲啊一些非洲友邦國家順便繞道去美國那因為當時的兩岸的環境跟台美關係那所以那時候就一直不斷的被調整"},{"start":342.671,"end":357.41,"text":"整個行程嘛那直到最後一天才說我讓你經過然後再不就是夏威夷吧和阿拉斯加只能中途加油這樣子對不對那有沒有可能我們這一次的因為這一次"},{"start":359.593,"end":374.29,"text":"總統出訪因為說要避免中東的戰火的危險所以我們這次才叫保守直航的方式那有沒有可能因為外面很關心說有沒有可能會有一些意外的驚喜比如說在第三地忽然間停下來或見了什麼人有沒有可能是這樣子"},{"start":375.444,"end":405.184,"text":"目前就我們的了解並沒有這樣的一個規劃我們覺得是說我們重視非洲這個最重要的一個友邦所以我們是說用直航的一個直飛的一個方式是表達我們的總統也公務繁忙那麼能夠在考量種種的權衡之下我們採取直航直飛的一個方式來做是一個最恰當同時他們直飛差不多是13個小時左右那麼這樣也是比較便利舒適的一個方式"},{"start":405.504,"end":434.024,"text":"市長因為像前陣子我們的卓院長忽然間在日本出現看棒球經典賽那時候其實很多的學者跟一些委員都非常的讚賞說是重大的台日重大的這個突破因為1972年斷交之後沒有一個行政院長踏上日本的國土所以這個東西我們期待說會不會有這樣的一個意外的佈局是更彈性的方式意外剛好看到這些東西讓台灣的國際在我們的外交在國際上又有一個新的突破"},{"start":434.884,"end":446.328,"text":"這樣不可能嗎?我想我們還是循序漸進,穩紮穩打,建立在良好的基礎上面,讓他們彼此了解。這次總統出訪任務單純,我們就是要去慶賀兩國的友誼,同時也是慶賀死亡58歲的雙58,非常重要的一個狀況。所以我們會讓他的任務更加的專一。"},{"start":460.812,"end":477.891,"text":"同時在總統在這個使國有相當多的行程所以是說目前就我們的了解並沒有什麼其他的額外的一個規劃那麼當然這個具體的一個行程到時候有什麼樣的一個狀況還是由總統府來做這個對外做宣布"},{"start":478.511,"end":500.256,"text":"市長有講到這次去世主要是他登記40年嘛對不對40週年跟他58歲的滑蛋那同時我們應該也要從本席了解是要推動的戰略要信念戰略的除油草提升斯瓦帝里的能力源安全那各位本席從經濟部國貿局的資料來看斯瓦帝蘭2023年全國失業率達到34.5%其中35歲以下人口佔市國人口約7成"},{"start":508.338,"end":533.693,"text":"那青年失業的問題已經造成嚴重的社會問題通貨膨脹在4%以上顯然看來最近史瓦帝蘭的經濟情況並不是很好也沒有預期這樣那市長我們跟他建交也超過也將近60年60年時間我們其實也大量拖不少的資源跟人力過去那以你來看那這60年這樣子他這樣的表現算是好嗎他的國家發展"},{"start":534.173,"end":553.491,"text":"我們看到美國現在面對到它的一個挑戰那麼斯瓦帝尼他身處在這個南非的旁邊有一個一定的磁吸的效應但總的來說也反映今天這個非洲的一個發展它面對到的挑戰以及它可能存在的一個機會社會教部的作為著重在於是說把這個機會能夠活化實現非常年輕的人口"},{"start":554.091,"end":572.167,"text":"那麼失業率很高所以我們是希望能夠讓我們的台商也看到在這個地方是可以作為深耕非洲市場的一個跳板一個機會所以我們在這個地方有一個這個台灣這個創新工業園區這次總統去也會去巡視那麼也做剪彩"},{"start":573.715,"end":588.95,"text":"推動,在推動之中,那我們這個,包括戰備儲備等等的東西,我們的相信就是說,不是只是給他援助,而是能夠讓他加入到這個全球的經濟裡面。那另外的時候,我們也要有幫助吧?"},{"start":591.793,"end":607.143,"text":"有投資就業另外是說對於他的產的這個一些特殊的這個農產品我們也安排透過我們現在新成立的這個榮邦經貿辦公室要來拓展他的一個產品總的來說我們是提供一個比較完整的一個"},{"start":608.864,"end":634.692,"text":"協助的一個方案就是像這個常常會有外面的話說這個給人魚吃不如獸人魚那我們這個想法就是說我們要把這個產業帶去把工作帶過去把工作的節約帶過去穩定他的社會市長本席會這樣問就是其實我們唯一一個在非洲的邦交國我們都希望他能夠因為我們的幫助而強大是藉由這個基地然後拓展我們在非洲的影響力是對不對應該是這樣是沒錯"},{"start":636.192,"end":659.228,"text":"那但是我們看到這60年來其實他的狀況並不是很好,這部分是不是我們也要來思考一下?關於他當然還未到公衛的一個挑戰,所以這也是我們在醫療外交上面要去協助的地方這邊有比較大的一些患病的人口,在這個事情上面我們也請了幾家醫院特別根據這個使國的一個需要,設計他們公衛的一個相關的計畫"},{"start":660.669,"end":675.42,"text":"謝謝市長 我後面再補充就是說我們剛才提到外交的方式其實本席有還建議其實還有一個地方我們可以去參訪就是梵蒂岡所以我們跟梵蒂岡是有正式建交的嘛對不對是 這是我們歐洲唯一的一個邦交國對 而且台灣的天主教徒多耶"},{"start":675.58,"end":693.42,"text":"很多像我們的前行政院長他就是天主教徒那我們如果說會擔心跟中國的關係我們可以透過更彈性的方式比如說宗教的方式或是參訪的方式去建立我想這個都是有正面幫助啦我們台東縣也有很多的天主教徒"},{"start":694.281,"end":720.296,"text":"我想這樣子的方式 透過不同的方式我想外交本來就是不容易推動但是可以更彈性我們都可以不小心在棒球場出現了有沒有可能還有其他方式可以讓更多看到台灣這個是我們可以努力的啦我們當然一定都努力跟各種各樣的方式就是現在台灣的一個處境我不能夠說台灣現在處境非常的困難但的確是有挑戰我們會尋求所有的一個方法來有一些新的一個好的一個發展鞏固我們在國際的一個參與"},{"start":722.797,"end":731.974,"text":"能夠成為一個國際負責任的議員我想這個越來越能夠讓世界看到也謝謝委員的這個指導我們一定會遵辦好 謝謝市長 謝謝 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孫簡元 孫司長國際合作及經濟事務司 葉志成 葉司長國際傳播司 張秀珍 張司長研究設計會 柯良瑞 柯主任人事處 呂士一 呂處長公眾外交協調會 肖光偉 肖執行長"},{"start":1598.181,"end":1619.227,"text":"領事事務局鄭正勇 鄭局長台灣日本關係協會洪英傑 洪秘書長經濟部主任秘書莊明池 莊主秘國際貿易署胡啟娟 胡副署長重規司 劉玉蘭 劉專門委員國營司 邱萬金 邱專門委員"},{"start":1625.936,"end":1636.422,"text":"能源署油氣發展及管理組 李小娟 李副組長產發署產業政策組 盧碧黛 盧副組長國家發展委員會 張朝能 張卓恩秘書經濟發展處 林紀宏 林專門委員"},{"start":1657.256,"end":1677.467,"text":"我們今天的會議資料我們到昨天上午才到昨天上午昨天下午才送到會場經濟部在六點以後在下班以後我想這個是上個禮拜就已經訂出的題目那這個部分"},{"start":1679.704,"end":1703.305,"text":"好 我們希望因為大家都非常重視而且委員會在這麼早的時間提出那你在大家下班的時間可能還需要特別加班我不知道其他的委員他們要怎麼樣去準備這樣子的一個相關的資料所以我們請所有相關的部會可以就這個部分未來一定要按照我們過去的那個往例好不好好 謝謝"},{"start":1705.026,"end":1721.273,"text":"外交部也是因為外交部更清楚我們至少大概兩天前你們在昨天下午四點多才拿的資料因為兩一戰爭不是現在才發生所以就這個部分在本委員會更不應該有這樣子的一個一個做法好不好好"},{"start":1725.68,"end":1750.935,"text":"我們的題目很困難嗎 瞬息萬變你就你原來的資料你當然是你原來已經發生的事情怎麼瞬息萬變我們都還沒有辦法掌握你不用講還沒有發生的啊所以我們要的是原來的我們委員會本來就是在兩天前幾乎是我們的慣例所以我們也要求尤其是我們本委員會這個部分一定要確實的遵守這樣子的相關規定 謝謝"},{"start":1756.394,"end":1759.716,"text":"補充介紹羅美玲羅委員請問在場委員對於上次會議議事錄有遺漏或錯誤需要更正之處沒有我們議事錄確定本次會議邀請外交部經濟部報告美伊戰爭情勢發展對亞太戰略局勢以及經濟安全之影響並被質詢現在請外交部陳次長上台報告"},{"start":1797.316,"end":1818.132,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士各位先生大家早那麼感謝邀請外交部針對這個美伊戰爭情勢發展對亞太戰略局勢以及經濟安全的影響進行專題報告並且準備質詢書面的報告請參閱以下就幾項重點跟各位進行報告"},{"start":1819.193,"end":1831.92,"text":"首先那麼本次的委員會和關切重點可以說是現在世界各國最關切的國際局勢就像剛才報告的就是說其實也一直在有變化那麼"},{"start":1834.727,"end":1859.463,"text":"美國以色列伊朗的戰爭從今年2026年2月28號爆發作為全世界最重要的一個石油跟天然氣運輸的這個河沐澤海峽遭到伊朗封鎖那麼伊朗供給部分的商船海灣國家的能源設施遭到襲擊導致國際的能源供應短缺以及價格高漲"},{"start":1860.664,"end":1862.988,"text":"全球的關鍵產業供應鏈風險正在逐步攀升"},{"start":1867.81,"end":1884.056,"text":"那麼對於這個亞太地區的國家對於中東戰事的戰略應處處分方面對應處的方面分柱如下首先是美軍支援的這個全球在分配的一個壓力美國確實從這個韓國跟沖繩調度部分的軍力馳援中東那美方雖然像這個日韓強調同盟嚇阻承諾不變"},{"start":1894.58,"end":1911.713,"text":"當然中東的戰事提醒了日韓兩國東北亞的安全東北亞的安保防禦仍然需要跟美方密切協調鞏固目前的同盟承諾第二個亞太的盟友也聲援何不擴散"},{"start":1912.613,"end":1932.709,"text":"同時給予美國正面的支持澳洲首先發表了聲明支持美國對伊朗採取行動日本跟紐西蘭都支持和不擴散並且譴責伊朗印度因為獲得伊朗列為友好國家所以保持中立客觀的調停立場"},{"start":1935.848,"end":1961.926,"text":"另外一個是敦促伊朗這個亞太地區的國家也敦促伊朗不要用他們控制關鍵航道來脅迫全球經濟日本跟歐洲國家已經發表聯合聲明表態願意採取適當的行動協助確保荷姆茲海峽安全通行跟美國親近的國家或者是有盟國家仍然傾向於直接向"},{"start":1962.526,"end":1989.912,"text":"伊朗進行外交交涉來交涉他的通行權以及不應以犧牲全球經濟為代價操控海峽作為戰爭籌碼我相關的這個東南亞國家跟南亞國家的應處分數如下東南亞伊斯蘭國家立場分歧比如說馬來西亞基於伊斯蘭教的一個立場強烈的譴責美國跟以色列"},{"start":1991.032,"end":2014.409,"text":"印尼願為美伊衝突來調停新加坡則拒絕就海峽通行權跟伊朗談判另外本次巴基斯坦居間斡旋促成停火拉抬國際聲量這可能是對於整個南亞的一些形勢會產生變化可能印度並不樂見"},{"start":2016.127,"end":2040.197,"text":"第三對於整個亞太區域經濟安全的影響可以分為三個部分第一個就能源安全這是最重要的一個關心海灣國家是全球能源供應鏈的一個核心那麼許多的亞太國家缺乏油源而且儲油的能量有限能源供應鏈陷入危機即使像澳洲馬來西亞等能源供應國亦無法倖免"},{"start":2041.317,"end":2065.807,"text":"因為區域裡面大部分的精煉燃油是來自於我國新加坡跟日韓而其中大約80%的加工原油要經過赫姆治海峽來運輸這是在整個能源安全的部分第二個是在於關於供應鏈產業供應鏈的部分由於中國立刻實施油品禁令加劇了國際燃油成本上升區域裡面的各國漁業"},{"start":2068.215,"end":2080.313,"text":"交通運輸跟公關運輸業都受到不同程度的衝擊另外包括農業、農耕等高燃料消耗的一個產業也受到嚴重的影響"},{"start":2082.213,"end":2103.919,"text":"全球有三分之一的海運肥料貿易都要經過荷木茲海峽第三是對於全球的民生經濟的衝擊油價上漲導致民生物價通膨對各國產生挑戰尤其是對於太平洋島國跟柬埔寨緬甸等低度開發國家衝擊更加嚴重"},{"start":2105.82,"end":2134.739,"text":"我們的友邦馬薩爾群島剛剛宣布進入到經濟緊急狀態第四,亞太區域各國因應能源問題的方式大概分為三種第一,啟動國內能源因應措施比如說日本啟動了戰備儲油釋放澳洲聯邦政府也成立了燃料供應任務小組越南也成立了能源安全保障工作組"},{"start":2136.38,"end":2159.031,"text":"菲律賓則宣布國家能源緊急狀況印度要求國內增加液化石油氣的生產並且將天然氣優先分配給發電跟民生產業這是在一個重新分配已經因應的部分第二個對於物價的衝擊各國是以穩定國內外的物價跟通膨為要務"},{"start":2160.772,"end":2172.142,"text":"泰國政府已經宣布12項民生必需品禁止漲價新加坡則追加10億新幣援助日本跟七大工業國合作加強匯率監管"},{"start":2177.025,"end":2200.657,"text":"避免伊朗形勢演變成為金融危機共同確保全球的市場穩定第三個部分是國際能源合作跟來源的多元化亞太區域各國均致力尋求能源替代能源進口替代來源包括像俄國其餘中東國家跟非洲等產業包括"},{"start":2201.757,"end":2230.72,"text":"跟俄國跟其他的沒有受到影響的中東國家以及非洲等產油國來採購並且推動能源供應鏈合作結論中東的軍事衝突延續至今演變成全球能源航運跟供應鏈的一個風險行政院召開多項的穩定民生安定專案會議外交部遵奉行政院各項指示持續掌握美伊戰爭的情勢"},{"start":2231.54,"end":2257.626,"text":"以及地緣政治局勢的一個變化那麼積極的護橋推動人道這個援助並且將透過整合總和外交跟各部會密切協作以強化我們的能源韌性跟這個經濟安全也還請這個各位委員指導 謝謝好 接下來請經濟部莊主秘上台報告"},{"start":2267.666,"end":2293.912,"text":"主席 各位委員 大家好全盟國委員會邀請經濟部將就中東情勢對經濟影響供應鏈重組下台灣的信任基礎跟產業角色以及政府協助的因應作為來做扼要的說明敬請各位委員不吝指教第一部分我們來看看美伊戰爭情勢發展對整體亞太經濟的影響那在今年二月份美伊戰爭爆發之後呢"},{"start":2294.632,"end":2312.183,"text":"中東局勢就浚視了升溫,對全球的能源供應造成衝擊。伊朗對橫浦在海峽的航運所採取的限制措施,因為該海峽承載了全球將近20%的石油運量,所以在能源運輸受阻的狀況下,各國轉向現貨來搶購原油,造成國際油價大幅上揚。"},{"start":2317.796,"end":2342.513,"text":"那目前美伊雖然暫時停火那近期雙方的談判雖然沒有達成協議不過他們有考慮再進行談判不過這樣子的情勢還是有相當的不確定性所以使得全球的能源跟物料的價格能再高檔震盪我們以石化業為例從戰爭發生以來包括像以西等"},{"start":2343.454,"end":2358.327,"text":"塑化原料它同步上漲就造成了影響從能源供給端就擴散到了產業的供需平衡那也逐步反映到市場上最終產品的一個價格那國際的機構也對"},{"start":2361.59,"end":2367.473,"text":"整個全球經營前景提出警示,包括像國際貨幣經濟因應中東戰爭的情勢調降了全球經濟預測。亞洲開發銀行則預估亞太開發中的經濟體成長率也會放緩至5.1%。"},{"start":2380.3,"end":2401.301,"text":"接下來我們來看看全球供應鏈重組狀況之下台灣的信任基礎跟產業的一個角色從這幾年國際政經的局勢發展的變動幅度相當的大我們可以看到各國都重新檢視他們本身的供應鏈還有面對美國關稅還有經濟安全的等等議題"},{"start":2402.322,"end":2424.056,"text":"這樣就導致了全球的一個貿易流向加速重塑的一個趨勢尤其是亞太地區因為它本身是全球重要的生產重鎮那它涵蓋的範圍影響了包含像半導體電子製造的一個供應鏈所以它的穩定運作其實對全球的經濟影響非常的一個重大"},{"start":2424.736,"end":2452.186,"text":"那全球經濟呢也在這一波的一個危機當中我們也發現說它也吸取了相關經驗透過整個供應鏈的一個韌性的強化還有透過國際合作來提升它的應變能力那台灣呢我們本身就是透過穩定的對外貿易還有提升成業的研發能力還有積極的跟友邦來合作那深度參與整個全球的分工體系所以當全球環境出現波動的時候呢我們本身確保"},{"start":2452.506,"end":2461.219,"text":"整個供應部中斷讓產業如廠的運作其實對整個全球國際社會都有相當大的幫助也拱佈整個國際社會對台灣的一個信任"},{"start":2463.82,"end":2483.032,"text":"那這幾年呢整個台商順應這一波供應鏈重組的趨勢調整了他的投資跟市場的一個佈局所以從99年台灣對外貿易投資有83.8%在中國到去年已經降到3.8%所以大幅降低了對單一市場的依賴"},{"start":2483.732,"end":2500.396,"text":"那照貿易部分呢今年首季我國對美國出口佔33.5%貿易比重達到23.1那美國也成為我國目前最大的貿易夥伴那另外呢包含像歐洲東協的出口呢在這時間也同時成長了61.9%跟52.3%展現台灣在擴展整個多元市場還有跟各國深化貿易關係的一個成果"},{"start":2509.918,"end":2539.498,"text":"那台灣是亞太區域當中重要的成員那我們持續也跟美、歐、日等理念相近的國家來深化合作包含我們透過跟美國的EPPT還有細甚式宣言的一個簽署這個都顯示台灣是美國在產業發展跟經濟安全上非常重要的一個夥伴那同時我們也透過台美投資備忘錄呢來促使台灣半導體ICT跟美國AI技術的緊密合作"},{"start":2540.258,"end":2554.503,"text":"除此之外,台灣也持續跟更多國家透過經貿往來,包括像跟日本強化半導體供應鏈連結,還有跟歐洲在無人機綠能相關的合作,讓台灣在提升自己本身產業競爭力的同時,也持續回應國際對供應鏈穩定和經濟安全的期待。"},{"start":2560.365,"end":2581.265,"text":"那面對整個國際歧視所帶來的挑戰呢其實進一步跟產業也保持密切的聯繫凝聚共識來擬定因應的對策包含強化能源安全穩定民生經濟來支持產業持續擴展國際市場來提升它的競爭力所以我們主要是從四個面向來著手第一個是能源安全的部分"},{"start":2581.906,"end":2605.178,"text":"都知道能源穩定供應是整個國家跟整個國力的一個基礎也是維繫整個產業跟民生穩定非常關鍵的要素所以面對目前中東戰爭的一個衝擊進一步就會持續掌握國際油氣的供應跟整個運輸管道的一個狀況所以目前我們的能源存量能是持續"},{"start":2606.519,"end":2633.007,"text":"高於整個把定的標準那我們也持續規劃來增加非中東地區的天然氣進口來穩定整個能力的供應也透過調度來確保燃料的充足跟供電的穩定第二部分在供應鏈穩定部分我們進一步目前會盤點大家所關心的石化的議題然後盤點整體的一個供應鏈從上游的原料到中游的製造還有下游的通路做整體的調度來"},{"start":2634.167,"end":2662.604,"text":"因應可能出現的一個供應的一個壓力那我們已經建立了快速媒合跟調避的機制來確保整體的供應無虞第三部分呢我們對產業支持部分呢政府也持續用具體的行動來作為產業的一個後盾包含像提供資金周轉的協助還有研發的補助還有補助企業在海外設置展示中心服務據點還有物流設施來協助我們產業分散市場"},{"start":2663.584,"end":2682.768,"text":"還有供應鏈的風險來強化全球的佈局那在市場擴展的部分我們針對有意發展海外市場的企業經營部目前已經在捷克、日本、美國跟波蘭設置了台灣貿易投資中心透過該中心以暫時的服務來協助展業掌握當地的市場資訊還有相關投資法規的規定"},{"start":2687.029,"end":2711.359,"text":"協助他們也和相關的合作資源來降低廠商在海外投資的障礙最後呢政府會持續透過相關歧視的變化的掌握還有全球供應鏈重組跟地緣政治變動的過程當中台灣會以穩定可靠的經濟表現跟國際夥伴共同努力來面對挑戰然後來維繫台灣長期的一個發展優勢以上報告請您指教謝謝"},{"start":2717.435,"end":2733.845,"text":"好我們現在開始詢答本委會委員5加2分鐘非本委會委員4分鐘10點30分截止發言登記如有臨時提案請於10點30分之前提出11點左右處理現在請陳俊宇委員上台諮詢好謝謝昭偉我們有請陳次長"},{"start":2746.933,"end":2772.447,"text":"請陳市長市長早市長我想先就一個實事題跟市長您來做請教我們先前已經討論過一段時間就是總統出訪的規劃現在總算有很明確的一個消息總統在下禮拜四月二十二將率團訪問我們的非洲友邦蘇阿帝尼"},{"start":2773.027,"end":2792.137,"text":"那今年不但是雙邊建交58週年那也適逢死亡58歲的這個滑蛋還有登基40週年那擴大舉辦的這個雙慶典去年我們林佳永部長曾經以總統的特使身份去訪問死國那死亡也曾經在2024年來到我們台灣參加賴總統的"},{"start":2795.338,"end":2812.075,"text":"這個就職典禮可見我們台史雙方高層往來還是相當的頻繁那從政府的這個我們記者會所公布的相關資訊來看我們這次出訪定調為台史同慶攜手共榮之旅"},{"start":2812.535,"end":2836.782,"text":"我想這不但象徵著我們兩國之間的這個夥伴關係應該也是意涵著當前地緣政治快速變化的這種情況之下台灣在非洲外交佈局的一個思考那這部分我想先就叫部長我們要如何去落實安全共榮、經濟共榮還有數位共榮這三大核心的目標那這種合作模式是否有機會讓我們台灣在"},{"start":2839.383,"end":2847.272,"text":"臨近的這些國家能夠有外交尋求突破的機會是 感謝這個委員的質詢當然我們這次很高興適逢這個死亡58歲的這個鄧成然後也是我們這個台時的58他的這個58年的這個"},{"start":2860.907,"end":2888.906,"text":"兩國友誼的見證總統這次安排出訪也見證了我們跟台灣跟斯瓦帝尼的非常穩固的邦誼當然我們是希望外交部是經過實際的作為來給予像這樣重要的友邦實質的發展的機會像委員剛才提到的像相關的共榮在各個方面我們都有一些具體的作為"},{"start":2889.326,"end":2913.54,"text":"那這次的這個總統的出訪也會參訪那個台時的一個工業發展園區那這就是我們這個雙方的一個發展園區所以我們跟其他的國家有一項中國在非洲的發展是不一樣的我們是要提供他一些真正的好的一個發展的機會我們同時在公共衛生在醫療在數位上面都有很好的合作這次還特別強調一個是我們也"},{"start":2914.7,"end":2931.649,"text":"關於他的整個戰備儲油的這個部分我們也那個協助他能夠來修復這也是增加他的一個能源的韌性但是種種的其實來說起來就是一個在綜合外交的一個理念之下能夠繼續的鞏固發展台灣跟這個史瓦帝尼的這個雙邊關係總統這次出訪就是這樣的一個見證"},{"start":2936.394,"end":2962.767,"text":"那根據這個官方所公布的相關行程我們總統此行還會這個會晤死亡並舉行雙邊的這個會談也預計會簽署這個聯合公報並且這個建政兩國外交部長所簽署的這個官務互助協定那過去我們台時的這個合作已涵蓋農業還有公衛教育還有這個婦女的這個父權等等"},{"start":2963.467,"end":2989.483,"text":"那我想進一步了解是簽署這些文件的背後未來我們有沒有可能是雙方合作帶來這個更大的助益那是不是請市長您這部分說明一下這次要簽署的這個聯合公報還有關務這個互助協定對於提升雙邊的合作關係還有經貿的效率我們預計會帶來什麼樣實質的效果這我們是不是非洲市這邊幫忙寫"},{"start":2992.109,"end":3008.621,"text":"那個聯合公報當然就是去彰顯兩國元首的一些政治還有在經濟的各方面的承諾那也是彰顯說賴總統第一次訪問非洲的友邦的一個承諾"},{"start":3009.782,"end":3027.551,"text":"至於說關稅互助協議基本上這個是要兩國的關稅機關就行政的協助還有一些打擊走私然後來以及貿易進出口的一些措施可以有更多深層的合作這也有助於我們這個"},{"start":3029.713,"end":3037.931,"text":"在使國要推動的產業創新園區未來我們台商會進去投資可以在貿易有更迅速更便利的一個服務"},{"start":3041.683,"end":3056.56,"text":"這重點是在於是說我們也希望透過跟這個使國能夠繼續的強化雙邊的經貿的這個關係透過像我們的官務合作等等的同時我們也成立了這個榮邦這個經貿辦公室也能夠推廣那麼使國的這個產品"},{"start":3061.685,"end":3074.692,"text":"透過這個東西我們一方面是要來鞏固強化提升使國的經濟另外一個也是對於區域國家的一個示範的效果跟台灣密切的配合合作是帶來實質的好處"},{"start":3076.853,"end":3097.449,"text":"那始國不但是我們在非洲唯一的一個邦交國,它同時也是南部非洲關稅同盟還有非洲大陸自由貿易區的一個成員。那如果我們台灣的這個企業以這個始國為作基地,它的產品也可以以零關稅的方式進入廣大的非洲市場。"},{"start":3098.49,"end":3122.879,"text":"那在中國持續拉攏其他非洲國家壓力下鞏固我們跟死國之間的這個邦誼對我們在非洲的這個產業還有外交佈局相信會有非常關鍵的一個戰略意義那我想面對這個全球供應鏈重組的浪潮台灣的這個產業創新園區推動我們要如何能夠作為台灣連結非洲市場的一個據點而目前園區推動的這個其實很違和"},{"start":3125.602,"end":3137.198,"text":"回答委員的質詢,委員說得非常的正確,我們是希望在這個地方做一個重點,然後透過南部非洲共同的經濟圈能夠推廣出去。"},{"start":3141.884,"end":3169.381,"text":"所以台商也在這個地方看到了一個好的機會這是這個我們外交部的一個做法是說能夠強化鞏固這樣的一個園區對於區域的一個經濟的帶動的一個效果所以我們是在這個著眼於這個上面然後也積極的幫這個使國能夠招引更多的這個台商去那個地方甚至是說在其他的這個相關的附近的鄰近的國家如果這個廠商有"},{"start":3170.782,"end":3195.476,"text":"這個繼續的擴張擴大它的這個運作的一個需求的時候也能夠優先選擇我們的這個產業園區來做發展的一個跳板好那最後一個問題就是說中共在這個非洲的外交攻勢上沒有停過常常也有具體的這個針對性特別在這個經貿的手段上中方先前也這個宣布關稅優惠政策他將現行的政策"},{"start":3196.417,"end":3215.035,"text":"架構之下已經給33個非洲國家享有零關稅待遇那從今年的5月開始他將擴大給予非洲53個國家全面零關稅那就唯獨排除這個史瓦帝尼那針對這個部分中共將死國排除在非洲零關稅名單外對於死國的經濟會不會產生什麼樣的"},{"start":3218.078,"end":3242.935,"text":"的這個壓力或是會造成什麼樣的影響是謝謝委員的關心喔那麼我們已經做過評估喔那麼對於其他的國家中共對於這個非洲的其他的國家實施零關稅喔對於使國的經濟其實影響很小幾乎可以忽略那麼主要的是說其實現在跟這個非洲國家中國跟非洲國家的一個經貿"},{"start":3243.855,"end":3265.07,"text":"是一個極其不平等不對等的一個經貿的狀況其實是從非洲國家得到更多的原料等等的輸入然後大量的廉價的產品把中國的過剩的產能銷往非洲地區所以說這樣一個不平等的貿易對於非洲國家的長期發展是有負面的影響"},{"start":3266.391,"end":3286.313,"text":"所以說我們一方面認為是說對於其他的中國對於其他的國家對於使國的這樣一個差別待遇第一個是不公平的但事實上是效果其實是微乎其微的那更重要的是說我們是積極的要來協助那麼斯瓦地尼能夠發展自己的經濟所以我們也著重於"},{"start":3286.873,"end":3301.891,"text":"如何能够把他们的产品农工产品引入到我们的市场以及协助他在这个整个非洲能够去行销我想这是我们的要务所以是说中国这样的一个关税上面的一个差别当然对于我们的"},{"start":3303.332,"end":3320.661,"text":"這個非洲最重要的一個友邦一定會有一些心理上面的一個感受所以我們是能夠希望透過這次的賴總統的這個出訪能夠帶來一些更清楚的一個經濟上面的一個利益好 謝謝市長謝謝委員我們持續努力啦是 我們一起努力好 謝謝好 謝謝接下來請羅美玲委員上台質詢"},{"start":3335.306,"end":3339.75,"text":"謝謝主席尤其經濟部莊主秘莊主秘委員好"},{"start":3348.411,"end":3366.292,"text":"朱米今年二月份美伊戰爭爆發以來呢那什麼時候會結束呢到目前都還沒有達成協議那可能很快美伊就會有第二次的談判可是這次談判確定性還是非常不確定性還是很高那當然國人最擔心的還是能源跟"},{"start":3367.373,"end":3382.989,"text":"這個原物料的這個供應來源以及甚至價格是不是因此會受到這個影響那經濟部有說到就是說目前我國的能源的儲存量其實還是高於法定的這個標準像我們的石油其實有90天以上的這個安全存量那煤炭有30天以上"},{"start":3386.653,"end":3394.238,"text":"那天然氣呢目前我們的這個安全存量的天數是11天所以那甚至我還有看到報導說那經濟部預計在2027年的時候會把這天然氣的這個安全存量提高到14天那我想請教的就是有關於這一個天然氣的部分我有看到就是像這個韓國韓國的安全存量天然氣的安全存量是52天然後日本的是21天所以跟這兩個國家相比的話我們的這一個"},{"start":3414.811,"end":3439.038,"text":"安全存量明顯有一個很大的這個差距所以我想請問主秘就是說OK那如果我們以後調到14天可是這14天跟其他國家來比其實還是有一些落差所以我想請問就是說未來如果我們持續的面對區域的衝突或是航運中斷等這些極端的情境那未來是否我們有進一步要提升的規劃請問主秘"},{"start":3441.159,"end":3454.751,"text":"謝謝委員的一個提醒其實整個確保國家能源安全一直都是進一步非常重要的一個任務那天然氣儲存的部分其實我想委員知道天然氣儲存其實會有一些相關輸儲"},{"start":3456.853,"end":3484.537,"text":"設施的一個配額上面的一個問題所以我們考慮到台灣整個輸出的一個條件還有我們相關整個那一個國家整個營運安全部分所以我們是有階段性的來提高所以目前我們是規劃到2027年再提升到14天那這也會跟我們整體的能源佔比跟未來需求有關所以我們也會韓國跟日本有他們目前整個能源設施的一個條件所以他們目前的量會稍微高一點"},{"start":3485.177,"end":3512.279,"text":"不過因為我們可以透過其他措施的一個輔助包含像我們跟日本韓國之音也可以透過相關的一個合作因為他們的那個天然氣存量部分其實我們可以做相關的一個臨近的一個調度像我們跟日本就有類似這樣子一個合作機制所以剛剛委員提起的部分我想我們會持續來就天然氣安全存量來依據國內的相關除潮的一個條件來做適度的一個檢討"},{"start":3513.46,"end":3517.243,"text":"所以我們能源設施目前的儲存能量不足,所以我們的儲存能量也只能保持在11天或14天的能量,那不夠的時候再來跟日本跟相關的鄰國再來做調度嗎?目前我們的機制是這樣子是不是?"},{"start":3535.376,"end":3553.17,"text":"目前就是我們依照我們興建儲槽的一個進度然後來規劃我們的安全存量那其實同步也考慮到我們整個自己本身在營運調度上的一個彈性所以我們目前階段性的處理上我們是以這個方向來做規劃"},{"start":3554.716,"end":3565.648,"text":"所以說2027年確定會提升到14天所以呢像我們儲槽的這個部分的話我們未來的規劃是怎麼樣我們是有要做"},{"start":3567.443,"end":3594.214,"text":"我們有要做相對這些設施的改善嗎 或是怎麼樣這部分可以說明一下嗎是 如同委員關心的像因為我們因應未來天然氣的一個需求其實在短期之內還是有增加那同時也我們因應到因為目前天然氣佔我國的一個能源使用比例也逐漸增加所以我們針對天然氣包含像接收站然後這些接收站的一個腹地就可以去做相關除潮的興建"},{"start":3594.674,"end":3611.46,"text":"所以目前我們正在強化也加速這些相關設施的一個興建的一個進程那未來配合這進程的一個那個發展還有我們整個接收站跟除潮能量的增加的話我們就可以來增加我們的安全存量的填數"},{"start":3612,"end":3633.232,"text":"現在就是接收站它必須要像過去我知道說我們有好幾個接收站其實都在建設當中其實我們要等到設備完善之後我們才能夠提升我們的安全量的這個天數所以我們也期待國人可以支持我們在天安氣接收站跟儲藏相關設施興建的一個那個協助"},{"start":3633.735,"end":3662.874,"text":"OK好謝謝好謝謝主秘那除了能源之外呢中東的這個戰爭呢對這個晶片產業的影響其實也是特別要做留意的那台灣呢就是呢全球半導體的這個市場像這個氦氣銹跟這個硫磺都是晶片的這個關鍵材料像這個氦氣的話像卡達它就供全球三分之一以上的氦氣那銹的話呢全球三分之二的產量是來自以色列跟約旦那硫磺的話呢它"},{"start":3663.815,"end":3677.786,"text":"其實它大部分它佔了這個像波斯灣地區呢它是佔了全球硫磺出口量的45%所以我想請教像我國的這個氦氣鏽跟這個硫我們有多少是從中東進口那對於我們販導企業產業的影響是什麼"},{"start":3682.198,"end":3707.434,"text":"跟委員報告 其實氦氣目前在整個半熬體驗其實我們現在知道半熬體業業其實在相關的回收都做得非常的確實所以目前氦氣在半熬體大部分都是做鍍膜跟冷卻使用而且他們會有高度 高比例的回收再利用所以它新料部分其實大部分都是做回收再利用過程當中的損耗的一個補充所以它的需求量其實相對比較少"},{"start":3708.254,"end":3734.275,"text":"然後目前整個我們跟氦氣進口的部分其實我們可以透過轉向美國進口來做替代措施所以我們目前量的部分應該在我們掌握之中是比較沒有問題的氦氣是沒有問題那像秀跟這個硫磺大部分都是來自波斯灣地區那我們大部分都是從哪些國家進口到目前為止會不會受影響"},{"start":3735.896,"end":3761.086,"text":"這兩個材料這兩個材料如同委員資料顯示其實它有相當比例是來自於中東國家不過我們也會積極來協助產業尋找其他國家的替代來源那同樣的它其實也會目前我們掌控狀況是在半導體業在這幾個原料部分的來源其實都沒有反映說有缺料缺貨的一個狀況"},{"start":3761.846,"end":3775.477,"text":"目前是安全無虞的是所以我們其他還有其他的替代來源國就是了並不一定說我們要從這個中東地方來進口嗎對主要是廠商都可以回收再利用所以他的需求量沒有那麼大"},{"start":3775.831,"end":3800.266,"text":"OK 好 說實在的因為國際形勢的這個帶來的這個能源的這個風險其實我們要重新再去檢視這個能源的結構跟政策的這個方向那我也知道說這個美伊戰爭國際油價飆漲所以為了穩定這個物價終於有到目前為止已經累計吸收107.3億元那我們看到今年二月份終於有最新的財報公司的淨值只剩下854億"},{"start":3802.347,"end":3829.169,"text":"那如果持續補貼的話如果暫時未歇那這些補貼政策如果要持續的話是不是會嚴重影響中油的這個財政的這個狀況是 如同委員所接受資料其實目前國際原油像布蘭特就漲了71%那像杜拜漲了77%然後我們的原油到暫時到現在其實漲了17%而已所以如同剛剛委員所說的中油其實大量的吸收中間的一個價差"},{"start":3829.91,"end":3849.685,"text":"那進一步也會考慮到整個國際原油的趨勢也會掌握國內物價的變動因為我們知道國內的原油品的價格其實對整個國內的CPI其實是會有連動性的一個影響所以我們也會每週跟每月來檢討國際情勢跟國內物價的一個變動狀況然後來適時來檢討整個油價的一個調動的一個"},{"start":3859.032,"end":3883.222,"text":"趨勢那這個當然就會影響中油的一個財務狀況所以基部已經提出包含像相關的在那取得相關資金或是在尋求行政院可以給予相當的一個補貼的一個那個方案也都正在進行當中希望能夠中油有足夠的一個比較好的一個財務能力來因應包含現在中東跟"},{"start":3883.462,"end":3904.132,"text":"未來可能會有的一些一個變動國際整個油品市場的一個變動的壓力對我在想這個部分我們應該還是在能源政策還是要有比較足夠的這個應變能力跟這個調整的這個空間啦這樣子才能夠維護我們產業跟這個國家的安全好謝謝祖密以上謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝接下來我們請黃仁委員上台質詢"},{"start":3919.746,"end":3923.541,"text":"謝謝主席 有請外交部次長請外交部次長"},{"start":3931.035,"end":3952.164,"text":"委員長本席有收到外交部一份公文,表示台灣光華雜誌在東南亞山嶼版、印尼版、越南版、泰嶼停刊、電子版也不再更新那光華雜誌過去裡面是五千年的歷史"},{"start":3952.904,"end":3978.281,"text":"那對於我們外交部專門向國際社會介紹台灣的軟實力的多元面貌的看護見證台灣從經濟面的起飛到民族的轉型、社會多元發展的一個歷程東南亞一般也有十年的一個歷史所以光華雜誌也非常符合部長的雙軌外交的理念"},{"start":3978.841,"end":4000.507,"text":"所以本縣很好奇的停刊的原因,外交部決定停刊東南亞三語版,最主要的政策目標是什麼?你來回答一下好不好?是,那個感謝委員的一個詮詢,因為很重要的是說我們要去調整今天在新的國際傳播的一個環境之下,那原來的這個紙本我們要衡量它的效益跟它的成本之間的一個考量。"},{"start":4001.187,"end":4020.488,"text":"所以在考慮我們的發行量的情況之下我們對於外的整個傳播策略有一些相對的調整同時我們現在有發現在國內有很多的其他的管道也能夠去發揮傳播台灣軟實力的一個效應比如說台灣Plus"},{"start":4020.928,"end":4039.5,"text":"比如說中央廣播電台,我想他們都有更廣大的受眾,那麼我們覺得在這個考慮之下,我們在整個成本跟效益之間的考量之下,做這樣的新的一個調整。因為時間因素,你把我這些資料彙整一下,在東南亞三一版的一個平行的發量,"},{"start":4041.146,"end":4064.739,"text":"這個讀者數 線上流量如何 平均每接觸一名讀者的成本是多少那另外這一份 把細節的部分來 還有一份那其他的來 其實如果以拓展市場的角度日本社會對台灣的認識已經夠充足了民眾對台灣本來就有相當的好感"},{"start":4065.339,"end":4085.096,"text":"那資訊取得管道也比較多 也是一個完善的市場那相對來說 東南亞對台灣的認識有限那以言格合相較於 更重要是對中國大陸在當地宣傳力道很強反而是我們需要開拓 開拓和經營的市場"},{"start":4087.398,"end":4103.503,"text":"那外交部保留官罰雜誌日語版而停刊東南亞山語版是否在策略上已經有互相矛盾甚至可以代表外交部的策略將資源優先投在已經友好的國家而不是在"},{"start":4104.103,"end":4123.11,"text":"需要经营的国家所以本席请教次长外交部以光华杂志的定位是什么是文化外交还是对外宣传的工具那外交部有没有评估过如果东南亚三一版停刊了会不会影响到光华杂志所赋予的一个政策的目标你回答我"},{"start":4124.392,"end":4148.676,"text":"那個報告委員現在我們的整個調整語系的這個版本現在只剩下兩個就是中文跟英文而已沒有日語版日語版一樣在這一次跟這個東南亞有保留啊日語版對啊有保留啊我們現在沒有沒有日語版也沒有沒有保留沒有保留嗎對對沒有對那你報告裡面怎麼有寫保留呢"},{"start":4152.268,"end":4172.288,"text":"沒有,應該是沒有,我們現在就只留中文版跟英文版好,那這樣的話還算是你們有一個能見度的理解那另外就是,如果外交部打算退出東南亞生意的市場裡面,那本席也尊重"},{"start":4173.907,"end":4187.327,"text":"那如果還想要繼續經營,本身希望了解停亢後的資源將如何重新的分配,那對東南亞受眾的溝通是否完整的有替代方案,有沒有替代方案?"},{"start":4191.097,"end":4196.501,"text":"報告委員就是這個停刊呢就是並不代表說我們那個新南向政策就沒有我們新南向政策呢各個相關部會他們都還是會繼續的執行那我們會停刊呢主要就是說我們就是看他過去這十年來不管是紙本還是線上都沒有達到預期的效益甚至呢"},{"start":4216.237,"end":4231.614,"text":"那現在沒有疫情的效果那你們有沒有重新檢討然後有沒有替代方案然後往哪個方向來走資源都還在那現在停刊了那你現在把那個資源要轉向哪裡替代方案是什麼你回答"},{"start":4232.054,"end":4253.581,"text":"我們人員都會做適度的一個規劃那另外一個東西我們會透過跟這個中央廣播電台等等的這個新的這個媒體的這個合作透廣線上的一個資源由他們來專業來處理因為外交部畢竟人員有限那個我們的資源也有限所以我們認為他應該做得更有效所以我們會透過跟"},{"start":4254.861,"end":4274.667,"text":"像這個中央國民電台以及其他的這個國際發聲的管道尤其會著重於這個像東南亞國家的這個這個傳播上面這我們外交部一定會持續的善用AI的持續的擴散力好不好那個委員說的很好我覺得我們會再努力的在本個AI的這個技術應用在我們國際傳播上面"},{"start":4275.947,"end":4299.412,"text":"好那另外就是丹麥從2024年的3月左右開始對旅居的丹麥的台灣人居留證國際已出生地從台灣改成為中國那外交部近期祭出反制的一個措施取消丹麥駐台代表部分特權以禮遇那請問一下市長"},{"start":4300.152,"end":4316.957,"text":"那過去兩年前,丹麥改變措施的時候,外交部為什麼開始進行交涉了嗎?這個兩年前有沒有進行交涉?那為什麼最近才會祭出這樣一個反制的動作?那這樣的話是不是"},{"start":4319.642,"end":4329.198,"text":"重矮化了我們然後你們在兩年前有沒有進行交涉為什麼兩年後你們才會祭出反制的一個動作你回答這個問題"},{"start":4332.2,"end":4355.012,"text":"報告委員我們事實上在兩年前就已經展開交涉而且這個交涉也是透過國會透過行政部門以及透過他們的駐台代表都與嚴正的要求那但是他們因為這段時間他都沒有任何的改善那所以我們決定祭出更嚴格的限制所以這個我待會我就拿南非跟韓國的比較"},{"start":4356.613,"end":4378.73,"text":"南非在這樣的矮化我國的外交的時候你們就一到兩個月就取消了做提出一個反制韓國將近一年矮化我們外交事務的時候你們就取消在一年內就取消為什麼丹麥兩年以後才會做反制的動作那另外我還講一句話在賴總統在"},{"start":4383.208,"end":4397.757,"text":"我在同年2024的同年的11月賴琢磨還接待了丹麥國會的議員訪問團並感謝他們對民主台灣的支持當時政府還沒警覺到丹麥未必真的這麼支持台灣"},{"start":4398.918,"end":4418.574,"text":"有這麼支持嗎所以那個時候你們都還沒有反制的動作你們應該在之前賴總統在接待丹麥的國會議員的時候你們應該就應該告訴給賴總統說你們已經提出反制而不是在賴總統在當下告訴給丹麥的國會議員說"},{"start":4424.018,"end":4430.763,"text":"這個感謝他們對我們民主台灣的支持我說這個是不是相對的矛盾呢你回答我這個問題好不好"},{"start":4432.214,"end":4459.392,"text":"事實上我們有相當多的丹麥國會議員是有協助我們去跟他的政府溝通所以我想現在是他們丹麥行政部門的問題那事實上我們去年所以我們接待他們根本是浪費了我們國家資源嘛是不是你兩年前就要寄書然後表達對你們矮化了我們中華民國然後把我們丹麥的這一些在丹麥的這一些這個橋"},{"start":4463.369,"end":4487.485,"text":"我們的僑民變成了改為中國本來是台灣改為中國所以這個就是已經矮化了我們你們應該兩年前就應該有一個反制的動作現在你們才反制動作所以這個是一個你們要檢討的地方那另外就是我們一定都是對國家的立場非常的一個堅持所以我們的反應一定是第一時間會提出相關的對他們的教訓"},{"start":4488.806,"end":4516.748,"text":"你只要說檢討就好了不要再找理由因為這個是數據已經顯示出來是我們未來任何一個有邦交國是友好國家只要是矮化我們中華民國的時候你們就應該立刻祭出反制的動作而不是拖延你們對南非一到兩個月對南海就一年以內那為什麼單單一個丹麥你們就卻要用這樣的一個角度"},{"start":4517.388,"end":4538.109,"text":"現在我們要講一個反思一個動作那如果本席比較南非跟韓國和丹麥南非屬於典型的新興民主的國家經濟學人民主指數將其評為缺陷的民主民主應做正常但是品質中等邊下"},{"start":4540.231,"end":4551.179,"text":"那第二個,韓國同樣也被經濟學人民主指數評為切線的民主,且韓國民主政治長期受強人統治與財閥的一個影響。那我們講一個丹麥。"},{"start":4555.382,"end":4575.868,"text":"丹麥被長期評為完全民主那國家是非常典型且成熟的民主國家經濟發展也非常進步穩定所以這個三個國家矮化我國的行為背後明顯都是與中國大陸有關那過去在我們這個被認知中民主制度缺陷於經濟發展對中國大陸依純度"},{"start":4579.369,"end":4602.366,"text":"存度高的但是丹麥顯然不屬於這樣的一個國家那外交部是否有研究為什麼丹麥會有這樣的一個舉動所以你們應該要重新思考哪一個缺陷的民主國家跟有完全民主的國家裡面我們應該努力作為我們友好邦交的國家才是啊第二個我們"},{"start":4603.226,"end":4620.253,"text":"部長一直推崇這個總和外交那我一直提到原民外交部長也認同所以你們要跟原民會做橫向聯繫如何要拓展在困境外交的情況之下把我們的"},{"start":4621.653,"end":4638.423,"text":"這個外交更能擴散要借用我們南東語系民主啊是不是是你們做了沒有你們跟原民會有橫向聯繫沒有我提到這一些你們總和外交你們部長也支持到現在沒有任何的進展把推未來的進展報告給我一份好不好"},{"start":4638.883,"end":4661.699,"text":"是,我們這個之後隨即會給予委員辦公室提供相關的資料。但也謝謝委員特別提到的原民外交,這是我們努力的方向。那我們現在正在安排跟原民會進行一個雙部長的會議,大家能夠協同一致,能夠拓展原民外交。我要再跟委員報告,原民外交的確是我們的外交作為一個非常重要的部分,非常多的國家強調這個。"},{"start":4662.78,"end":4678.651,"text":"最近才有加拿大的議員來訪他們也強調了這個東西其中也包括原名的加拿大他們叫First Nation的議員來訪所以我們特別強調在這上面我們跟加拿大能夠互相合作的一個地方把這個短中程進程長程的計畫報告給你一份"},{"start":4692.418,"end":4695.8,"text":"好 接下來請王逸川 王委員上台質詢好 謝謝主席我們是請外交部 經濟部 國營司跟能源署請以上部會人員就備訓台 謝謝早好 早"},{"start":4720.663,"end":4743.774,"text":"今天這個召委安排這個會議很好可是我看兩個單位寫的報告很差很差啦我先講經濟部經濟部裡面的寫法好像都沒問題都沒問題你們裡面所有用的說法完全都沒事是這樣嗎"},{"start":4745.353,"end":4767.319,"text":"這美伊戰爭對美伊之間這些事情對我們來說完全沒事欸你們裡面用的文字啊看不出你們在煩惱捏是這樣嗎包委員其實美伊戰爭剛有提到它對全球整個有品市場的影響其實真的對國內的能源供應商造成一定的壓力你說的這句話差一堆"},{"start":4768.606,"end":4782.792,"text":"我們在前面的在第一段部分有特別提到這個整個全球...你們後面的所有的政府協助因應沒有任何一個啊你全部都說什麼台灣供應鏈如何如何啊這一個你們會持續的這個關心如何如何那為什麼沒有事情啊"},{"start":4788.977,"end":4817.568,"text":"因為這次題目主要是講那個亞太經濟跟經濟安全所以我們就比較沒有琢磨在能源安全在我們這幾天極力在確保所以你說美伊站在你們的立場美伊這樣的事情對我們的經濟安全站在你們經濟部立場整本報告看起來都沒問題都沒問題 都要玩樂有 其實在能源安全部分有一定的壓力看不出來啊看不出來啊你們哪一段告訴國會人說這個美伊的事情對我們的經濟安全有很大的影響哪一句"},{"start":4818.49,"end":4819.651,"text":"對一句國營私人元素來來來你都沒疫情你都覺得這沒事對你都沒營養是這樣嗎包委真的是有影響所以我們有影響你的報告都看不出來"},{"start":4838.055,"end":4848.839,"text":"因為我們著重在整個亞太戰略的部分所以那部分我們委員需要資料我們可以再補充給委員今天召委安排這個會是要來聽你們講這些的是不是你們要跟國人講啊這對我們的經濟安全有什麼影響啊是你們現在還在說半導體 還在說供應鏈是不是這樣吧 這報告 報告這麼晚才送來送來的東西怎麼看都不要緊"},{"start":4868.739,"end":4877.671,"text":"這樣這陣子期間所有的商業在煩惱中 油拿起起來 油拿起起來後面連帶的 大家營養到的你們在那邊看 沒藥沒金啊這樣對不對"},{"start":4882.177,"end":4904.387,"text":"各位我們這一部分是要因為我們其實在另外的報告裡面其實一直很強調我們在穩定能源供應這一塊進一步跟整體政府的作為那這一塊可能在今天報告裡面我們沒有把它強調所以我們之後會再做相關補充你想要表達你們很煩惱的叫大家交費商業給大家提供一下要補中油跟中油拜託一下"},{"start":4910.64,"end":4917.182,"text":"不要去!這個表達,不是說這幾本報給我們看,我們都站在旁邊看來,外交部,你們的報告裡頭啊,羅列了這次的事情,各國啊"},{"start":4927.008,"end":4939.777,"text":"不管是這個個別的國家 個別的元首 個別他們派出去的代表 或者區域性的這些組織啊對這個事情的關心 有情形 企業 有客廳 你們都留下來了中華民國外交部在這件事情裡面做什麼事情"},{"start":4943.959,"end":4947.282,"text":"是,我們在中東戰事發生之後,我們就開始成立小組我們每天會開會,能夠實時的因應因應了什麼?來,因應了什麼?我們護橋優先,護橋優先所以我們在戰事期間,我們同時要求駐外的管處,全力的協助國人"},{"start":4970.482,"end":4996.393,"text":"你們每週多少國人 因為要留在那邊 為你協助從別的國家離開然後跟一些團說你不要再去那裡玩 你們都有做 我知道在經濟安全這件事情 外交部有做什麼事情報告我們現在經濟安全的部分主要是第一個是說收集相關的資訊 跟經濟部密切配合你的收集資訊"},{"start":4998.869,"end":5006.223,"text":"我們如果外交部還是主導的一個機關他們如果有需要我們通過外交的手段有什麼需要外交部幫忙"},{"start":5008.496,"end":5033.424,"text":"報告委員跟外交部合作部分當然就是第一個掌握其他國家在因應那個中情中戰爭的一個策略然後他們實際國內的一個影響狀況來跟國內來做比較另外當然我們會有一些需要轉移從中東進口來源的轉移部分然後透過外交部來協助有沒有跟其他國家你看到外交部今天下的報告外交部今天下的經濟報告你有看過嗎"},{"start":5034.772,"end":5058.462,"text":"有 你有看到其他國家做什麼事情嗎?有你需要外交部去做什麼事情嗎?我們在行政院內部我們跟外交部跟其他部會都有持續的一個合作不是合作啦 我說外交部裡面有下很多國家他們透過各種的管道 有清新的 有卡電話的 有登場的拜託的"},{"start":5060.002,"end":5082.427,"text":"我們經濟部 叫外交部 請外交部說你們可以派什麼人 去跟什麼人說什麼事情你們經濟部有沒有提出這個要求啦不是都外交部 外交部收集 叫外管去收集資訊回來來大家行政院來開會 他們報告之後經濟部拜託外交部說 我們現在需要你們去跟我們倒傻講什麼事情有沒有提出這個需求啦"},{"start":5084.128,"end":5112.515,"text":"我想有啦經濟部這個要求在這個相關的能源調度上當然他們才掌握價格嘛比如說今天天然氣必須要從澳洲從這個加拿大從美國來調貨現貨上面我們要去協調是不是這個東西同時我們也提供給這個經濟部相關的評估這個戰事就我們的了解從美方掌握的資訊從這個日方所掌握的資訊其他的這個理念相信國家掌握的資訊還會再持續多久那是不是要做稍微長期的規劃"},{"start":5113.655,"end":5128.9,"text":"那以及長期規劃裡面是不是需要透過因為說實在現在大家都在搶貨那我們現在是不是能夠透過外交的一個努力我們跟加拿大我現在就問你有沒有啊是有在這上面是有有啦好啦你如果真的這就廢棄了你沒辦法說就說有就好了啦是阿不然你們的行政院叫這麼多部委來開啊你們報告之後現在他們聽了怎麼說我們沒事情啊聽了之後就報告你來看這報告裡面沒有一句緊張的我們是說我們沒事情呢這樣還不通"},{"start":5144.585,"end":5152.533,"text":"拜託啦,你們這個經濟部喔,你們這樣為了中意,又不去企業,這樣被人家要死你也表達一下,說你有什麼歡樂叫大家體諒一下,叫我們國內體諒一下,大家補貼一下沒有啦,今天早上拜這個節目,想說這個經濟部判定來,我們這個外交國防來報告一下結果你們搞這個東西來,這是看起來就沒效啦"},{"start":5171.181,"end":5188.067,"text":"謝謝委員提醒其實進一步一直持續有在對社會說明我們對中油相關協助需要大家的支持所以要謝謝委員的支持好啦加油啦拜託啦你不這樣報時不報憂啦大家都在歡樂啊你怎麼看人家都說沒壓沒緊啦好嗎好謝謝感謝委員好謝謝接下來請陳冠廷召委上台質詢"},{"start":5213.92,"end":5236.45,"text":"我們請次長請陳司長委員長市長早 市長我們先從中東的局勢開始來講那我們講到戰略那我不知道你們有沒有很嚴正的把我們的擔憂跟這個美方講就是說長期的戰事它會傷害到的不是"},{"start":5237.708,"end":5263.409,"text":"台灣而已是美方的盟友包含菲律賓緊急狀態是還有日本韓國是這些擔憂有沒有確實的跟美方來表達過有我們那個透過駐外使館喔以及我們跟這個AIT的這個在台灣的這個互動喔都有表達我們的了解他們怎麼回應他們怎麼回應他們怎麼回應喔當然是說其實說來在正式的發展他們也都了解我們的擔憂齁那麼這個他們就時時會"},{"start":5267.666,"end":5285.132,"text":"當然他不可能事前告訴我他下一步的一個動作那可是對於上這個這個和談的一個那個時候在巴基斯坦這個談判的內容我們也透過管道去了解那相關的這個發展那麼也評估說對之後我們的可能的影響在什麼樣的一個地方"},{"start":5287.273,"end":5301.662,"text":"那我們可能要的一個作為有請這個美方能夠協助尤其是在能源方面吼那這個剛才經濟部也有很多的一個報告像能源上面的確是很辛苦吼調度上面不容易我們也跟美方特別來強調在這個上面就是這個台灣跟美國吼"},{"start":5305.104,"end":5332.072,"text":"以及在其他的理念相近國家能源韌性合作的一個開始我們也把它看成是一個新的一個機會那麼也跟美國也跟我們的國內的來說是說我們多元化我們的採購來源是非常的重要所以我們也希望在這個上面能夠給我們的友邦傳達一個清楚的訊息我們有意願而且現在也是有必要在這個能源韌性的議題上面能夠做更多的合作"},{"start":5332.554,"end":5353.619,"text":"好那我必須要強調這個其實在盟友之間的交流特別是說發動重要衝突之前那告知甚至是讓我們有所防範讓我們可以做一些準備是非常重要的所以我認為這是一個本來就是應該要做的那包含我們不知道衝突的這個時間點有多長或多短"},{"start":5354.239,"end":5365.763,"text":"我們必須要知道時間的長度我們才有辦法來去做調度那另外一方面我看到之前的委員都有提到包含澳洲大概是30幾%嘛那卡達也是超20左右20 30嘛那還有美國大概是9點多快要10%嘛那以後未來這個調整怎麼調怎麼樣能夠加強我們對他們的投資"},{"start":5376.463,"end":5397.66,"text":"確保去風險我們重點是要去風險的話現在已經不是在比哪一個東西便宜而是哪一個東西的風險是比較相對低的因為我們現在是要求有而不是只是要便宜而已特別對我們的所有的石油衍生的產品以及我們重要的這個科技高科技產業來講這一切都是很必要性的所以我認為我們也有必要跟美方來"},{"start":5398.681,"end":5419.013,"text":"特別要強調這樣已經不只是能源不只是說這可能會傷害到盟友而已而是說美方的戰略投射必須要重返印太已經講了10年20年了如果我們的外交部沒有辦法把這個訊息跟我們必須要強調日本菲律賓紅部跟美方再次強調這件事情的話我覺得會傷害"},{"start":5420.512,"end":5449.796,"text":"我們自己國家的利益也會傷害到美國的利益我們不是站在我國的利益而已而是站在我們盟邦的利益一起來去討論這件事情這個已經是非常嚴重的事情我們看到說大量的軍事資產都往中東送大量的這個軍事的人員也都往中東送這會造成印太地方的中空那這個如果印太地方的真空出現之後那對台灣的安全威脅是無與倫比的我們必須要很嚴正的跟我們的盟友講那也必須要做最"},{"start":5451.381,"end":5468.809,"text":"最不好的準備最好的準備就是當然是要跟日本跟菲律賓我們至少在這個中等國家之間的聯盟上面不管是在去衝突化在這種雷達雷琴上面的去衝突化的識別化這些都是需要外交部主動來去詢問國防部主動來去詢問經濟部讓他們能夠來去做整體的這個規劃"},{"start":5472.031,"end":5499.783,"text":"不是說我成立一個工作小組你成立一個工作小組又怎樣你們解決了什麼事情我們的報告不是要說我成立了哪個小組做我要看到是你做了什麼事情你協調了什麼事情你跟哪裡進了哪些能源可以確保說我活在未來的一個月兩個月三個月到七個月都可以不用擔心這才是我們報告要的我不需要很多文字上面的贅述不需要那包含我也這樣在這邊跟所有的這些外交部經濟部跟所有的同仁們講以後特也是國防部現在他沒有來沒關係"},{"start":5501.044,"end":5519.583,"text":"我們的報告內容 其實最次不要多 不是機密的就不要說是機密這樣子以後我們再去做事情的時候會更有用再來我們要提到一下這個中國國民黨 曾立文他們主席去訪問中國的時候他們有講一些反殖民跟反日的論述 我們有準備好要怎麼樣去針對這個論述來去反制嗎"},{"start":5525.631,"end":5541.771,"text":"首先我們感謝委員的關心,我們當然對於國內的政治外交部是沒有立場,但是我們也希望國內的主要政治領袖必須要準確的傳達台灣的主流民意,就是中華民國台灣與中華人民共和國互不隸屬的事實。"},{"start":5543.473,"end":5568.606,"text":"那從歷史上面也是這樣,中華人民共和國從來沒有統治台灣那這個東西我想是一個共識那如果政治領袖傳達一個錯誤的訊息往往會產生一個很重大的後果尤其是對於像中華人民共和國這個對台灣有敵意的一個國家常常會用這個問題來操作那我們也覺得這個事情上面我們都必須要特別的小心謝謝次長"},{"start":5569.306,"end":5590.319,"text":"市長他們不斷的強調用反殖民的這樣的說法說說台灣也是在反殖民中國也是在反殖民我要跟大家報告這個當初在這個川普在6月6日在跟德國的總理他們在會晤的時候他說D-Day對你們德國來說可能不是一個愉快的日子"},{"start":5591.052,"end":5612.008,"text":"但是那總理怎麼回應他說這是我國從納粹獨裁統治下獲得解放的日子同樣也是當初為什麼會有中日戰爭就是因為他們軍國主義的擴張當初為什麼會有歐戰跟二戰就是因為納粹主義的擴張那是什麼樣的作戰解放了他們是美國以及當初的中華民國"},{"start":5613.729,"end":5637.1,"text":"我們從被壓迫的軍國主義以及歐洲被納粹主義從解放出來的那時候我們的盟國是誰中華民國台灣的盟國中華民國的盟友又是誰很明顯的是美國嘛對不對所以我們這個歷史觀要很清楚的知道說是什麼樣的解放出來那日本跟德國在戰後之後變成什麼樣的國家民主的國家甚至是經濟的重心是歐盟的經濟的重心因為他們從軍國主義從納粹主義轉換"},{"start":5640.442,"end":5657.836,"text":"他們從新的來去做民主的轉型經濟的轉型那中國部分也是一樣中國在歷經他們的改革開放之後他們做了經濟的轉型經濟的轉型讓很多人脫貧對此我們是歡迎的我必須要很清楚的讓所有的民眾知道我們並沒有仇視中國人"},{"start":5658.636,"end":5681.919,"text":"但我們不希望的是用極權的方式來去改變我們的生活方式這是我們的外交論述不是每次就只是單純的從樣的照本宣科沒有這樣子的你要跟民眾講清楚我們的外交是在做什麼我們要爭取的是什麼那現在中國做了經濟轉型之後他們沒有做政治轉型這就是跟我們完全不同的地方我們沒有要追求中國的"},{"start":5683.001,"end":5709.684,"text":"政權更替沒有 這不是我國的利益我國利益就是台灣就是台灣以及我們的台澎金馬這是我國的利益我們沒有要求中國要走向政治改革這不是我的工作我的工作就是在台灣確保台灣2300萬人有我們自己的生活方式要保護我們的生活方式要維持我們的生活方式所以對我們來說反殖民也好反帝國主義也好反軍國主義也好都是在維持我們的生活方式同樣的我們也反極權"},{"start":5710.825,"end":5725.748,"text":"我們也反對中共直接來武力犯台這也是維護我們的生活方式請大家仔細思考一下以後外交部不要每次都說這個我們這個理念相同啦價值觀相同我們要跟多少個跟價值觀不同的國家來互動我們盡量國家不用跟"},{"start":5726.509,"end":5754.738,"text":"這些東南亞的國家來互動嗎他們的理念價值跟我們一樣嗎他們也追求民主自由嗎有些有有些並不是我們沒有我們是一個中等國家中等國家不是超級強國我們不用干預每一個國家的內政但是我們必須要維持我們的內政我們維持內政就是民主自由這是我們的生活模式不會強加在其他人身上也不希望任何人強加在我們身上未來我希望說外交部也好入委會也好針對這種不同的說法我們"},{"start":5755.618,"end":5782.168,"text":"必須要有一個特別是有些時候是disinformation給這種錯假亂訊息想要扭曲我國的主權想要扭曲我國的事實上的存在的時候必須思考一下你要用什麼樣的方式來去有效的詮釋我們國家生存的價值跟我們國家跟其他國家互動的利益如果沒有的話那現在要馬上思考一下我們的外交戰略是什麼好 謝謝是感謝委員的質詢喔這個還有佩服委員的這個歷史觀以及世界觀謝謝"},{"start":5787.145,"end":5789.768,"text":"好接下來請王定宇委員上台質詢好謝謝主席請兩位兩位次長跟主秘請陳次長還有經濟部組莊主秘"},{"start":5812.222,"end":5838.264,"text":"兩位好我先就我們今天的主題有關伊朗的戰爭對我們國家的大概能源、經濟都有影響從塑膠袋到我們最近看到鋪馬路的AC薄油到油那美國的油價好像漲了一倍到兩倍那台灣因為中油的犧牲奉獻吸收所以油價還算控穩那油價控穩其實不是好到加油的人而已"},{"start":5838.925,"end":5859.735,"text":"它是物價之母它會影響到所有像以前電價為什麼要補貼台電當然在野黨不贊成台電的電價不是用電的人在用而已台電會影響到麵包啊烤這個石化很多東西會用到它之後所以把它價格控穩它會影響所有的物價所以它是物價之母"},{"start":5860.635,"end":5883.881,"text":"那我今天要問兩位的是第一個我請教經濟部我國有沒有從伊朗購買石油或天然氣包圍沒有因為伊朗的石油大概佔全球供應量的9%到12%但它80%賣到亞洲那它的天然氣大概佔全世界的17%"},{"start":5885.862,"end":5900.818,"text":"好 那這個是伊朗的部分那赫姆茲海峽那個海峽出口它影響到的國家有伊朗 伊拉克 沙烏地 阿拉伯阿拉伯 聯合大公國 巴林 卡達等等這些國家的油跟天然氣我們台灣有沒有採購"},{"start":5902.456,"end":5914.603,"text":"呃有我們呃經過荷姆斯海峽的那個油漆大約佔百分之三十四左右我們的對你現在講天然氣34就是我們天然氣會經過荷姆斯海峽台灣從這個經過荷姆斯海峽運輸的天然氣佔我們國內的進口量34%對油呢油差不多是"},{"start":5928.047,"end":5950.682,"text":"62%我可以接受葉管直接講你的聲音也可以出現所以其實如果和睦之海峽封鎖不能運送對我國的能源供應其實會吃緊的那安全儲備量涉及國安我就不問了但是這兩個命題為什麼要分開問外交部次長跟經濟部主秘這兩個題目不一樣"},{"start":5953.373,"end":5977.72,"text":"如果美國是封鎖伊朗的每個港口跟伊朗跟美國的戰爭封鎖了荷姆茲海峽這兩個命題對我國的經濟跟國家安全有沒有差別有差別喔 差別很大喔如果伊朗的石油天然氣消失就你們手上的資訊你們的了解全世界哪個國家會受害"},{"start":5978.34,"end":6002.999,"text":"中國會最嚴重這已經不是標準答案 這叫基本常識因為伊朗它的油百分之八十消亡亞洲而最大甚至於幾乎是唯一的buyer就是中國可是荷姆茲海峽會影響每一國因為荷姆茲海峽控制了全球的油跟氣全世界百分之二十"},{"start":6003.991,"end":6028.394,"text":"然後伊朗的天然氣呢佔全世界的17%石油佔9%到12%這兩個數字再加總起來看你就會知道從荷姆茲海峽出來其實伊朗的油跟氣佔大宗那只是因為我們台灣不是一個能源生產國所以我們從這邊運輸過來的佔比佔我們比較重和佔全世界來講如果扣掉伊朗的話"},{"start":6029.488,"end":6051.242,"text":"其實荷姆斯海峽影響全世界的油跟氣的佔比就沒那麼高了所以川普打了先打委內瑞拉再打伊朗其實是算過的委內瑞拉的油源控制加上美國現在是全世界大概前幾名吧大概幾乎最大的產油產氣國所以他把最大的儲量的委內瑞拉"},{"start":6052.122,"end":6074.633,"text":"跟最大產出的美國先抓在手上然後赫姆斯海峽一封受影響的台灣會受影響但是如果現在美國剛才在進行的是對伊朗的港口的封鎖那對台灣如果赫姆斯海峽可以走的話只是封鎖從伊朗港口出來的話經濟部你們評估"},{"start":6076.659,"end":6103.916,"text":"這對我們的經濟影響是什麼包委員這當然如果剛剛委員講對我們來講我們就可以在經濟安全上面壓力就會小很多也會避免剛剛所提到因為能源安全壓力所造成國內在整個有物料的一個供給還有相關價格上漲的壓力所以對整個經濟發展其實是非常有正面影響我國的安全儲量是國安機密那中國的油跟氣的儲量是多少你們有沒有這數據"},{"start":6107.144,"end":6125.511,"text":"45天了他們有公佈過了45天嘛那現在這個荷姆茲海峽跟伊朗的油氣不能運送幾天了你們有沒有統計幾天了幾天4646天是戰爭喔但荷姆茲海峽的運輸線被斷掉是幾天"},{"start":6131.55,"end":6158.579,"text":"你們沒有算這個 你怎麼去算這個危機啊這我不在考你們數據 你知道嗎這邊的運輸 這個都數學問題啊運輸是一個logistic flow 是一個數學問題那個地方占比多少 封了幾天哪一個國家進口量最大 哪一個國家怎麼樣那是可以算的然後現在偷跑出三條船 是哪幾國的是不小心跑掉還是刻意的 那個都有影響所以外交部跟經濟部要來這邊回答問題 你這個"},{"start":6160.526,"end":6174.64,"text":"基礎數據要有嘛要不然我怎麼跟你算這個物流嘛你懂我意思嗎所以經過這樣回推我們就可以計算啊比方說在中國的台商他的AC塑膠油料"},{"start":6177.238,"end":6204.37,"text":"那個價格暴漲的時間大概不遠或者中國也許不會暴漲只要不賣你他就限縮他就說那個中國的名詞叫什麼有序管控有序管控就是不賣就可以斷掉嘛那台灣當然我們知道自己的安全存量可是我們台灣受伊朗的影響小受荷姆茲的影響大那荷姆茲什麼時候可以全線開通牽涉到水雷牽涉到什麼部分這個其實局勢還在演變"},{"start":6205.854,"end":6217.589,"text":"我最後要請教兩個部會那第一個如果荷姆澤海峽封鎖繼續持續下去你們的備案是什麼 經濟部"},{"start":6220.185,"end":6243.611,"text":"我們主要就是要第一個就是看在中東地區部分有沒有辦法走那個類似像鴻海其他的一個那個運輸管道你的能可不可以就不叫備案可以才叫備案有沒有備案目前我們在進行就是這樣方向第一個如果中東就是換他的那個管道另外就是從其他北中東地區那個管道只有阿拉伯沙烏地阿拉伯有嘛他有一個大pipe嘛"},{"start":6244.011,"end":6263.932,"text":"然後直接從波斯灣這邊拉到另外一頭紅海那邊去嘛那紅海那邊雖然葉門那個什麼兄弟會在那邊導彈他火力沒那麼強嘛你們的備案是這個還有另外從其他非中東地區增加貨買量對所以現在最主要都是從非中東地區增加現貨的角度那非中東地區哪些國家美國"},{"start":6265.033,"end":6284.425,"text":"主要是來自於美國 澳洲澳洲是天然氣啦是 美國主要是原油的部分是原油嘛 是它的頁岩油啊什麼的所以這個備案在執行了沒目前已經在執行我們已經掌握到六月份我們本來會從荷姆茲海峽的部分我們找其他中東地區已經確定那個來源都已經確定了那我問你一個關鍵問題假設荷姆茲海峽持續封鎖我們經濟部對於我們油價穩定"},{"start":6292.176,"end":6297.99,"text":"塑膠原料石化液的供應AC 柏油 瀝青等等這些是廢料的供應"},{"start":6299.905,"end":6326.989,"text":"價格的穩定你們認為國人可以樂觀幾個月 未來目前我們還是要看整個國際那個月相關價格我現在已經給你一個前提我們所有的想定在國防部叫兵推你們知道經濟局勢的想定其實台灣政經兵推很久沒做了這個是屬於政經兵推想定一定從最差想定到最好嘛最差就是荷姆斯海峽一直封嘛封個一年好了啦"},{"start":6327.984,"end":6339.998,"text":"那我才問你的備案 備案不叫做看可不可以 備案叫做可以才叫備案所以根據你們現有備案根據最壞局勢想定我們國人不管是企業或者是一般民眾對於油氣"},{"start":6343.266,"end":6359.169,"text":"塑化原料以及最基礎的這種AC鋪面相關的部分對於以現在的價格來看持穩雖然中油可能某些企業我們國營企業會付出代價這個持穩的信心我們可以保持多久"},{"start":6360.01,"end":6388.628,"text":"包委如果剛剛委員隨便所提的它影響成品其實不只是油價它會影響到國內物價所以我會看國內整個經濟的狀況跟物價狀況再來做每週跟每月檢討我現在告訴你就是說你能告訴國人說未來三個月不用擔心我們都有備案了所以最壞的局勢我們價格波動不會超過10% 8% 5%這個才叫做信心喊話你剛才講的我會看局勢然後怎麼樣"},{"start":6390.017,"end":6410.525,"text":"沒有人會覺得局勢好就應該價格高一點的啦沒有這種東西啦所以我就問你對於這樣的信心你們認為期程可以多久因為我們現在量的部分其實很確定所以在量確定的狀況之下我們學總經的需求跟供應就是決定價格嘛你的量你的supply quantity如果確定"},{"start":6411.448,"end":6428.483,"text":"那Demand就是我們國內2300萬人產業這也是固定的所以你的備案其實是在把Supply這個量固定下來那那個Optimal的那個價格就不會波動太厲害嘛所以我的意思多久這個信息要多久"},{"start":6428.863,"end":6454.798,"text":"目前我們掌握量確定來源部分已經掌握到六月底了現在七月部分已經在積極的佈局當中現在四月中我們到六月底之前已經掌握了量也就是供應量到六月底無餘那需求有時候會有囤積啊這個因為心理恐慌心理性的買壓它會有一些波動但至少現有需求的供應量掌握到六月底我這樣理解沒錯嘛那七月份正在談當中嘛"},{"start":6455.578,"end":6483.173,"text":"那備案是來自於繞道鴻海那邊或者是其他國家的供應量這個是用最差狀況來想但如果荷姆斯海峽可以解封那我們大概受影響就低了然後如果荷姆斯海峽解封伊朗被封住那其實對我們來講未必是利空喔搞不好是利多喔因為另外一邊的競爭對手那邊他的油源不見了嘛好那個最後30秒請教外交部"},{"start":6484.977,"end":6505.278,"text":"就你們現在掌握的外交局勢 荷姆斯海峽雖然那個看起來不像停戰的停戰協議還在進行當中那今天明天美國伊朗還要繼續第二輪的談判就你們現在掌握的外交訊息 荷姆斯海峽恢復運輸是可期待或暫時無法期待"},{"start":6506.195,"end":6523.966,"text":"我覺得是說整個來看的時候的發展來說的話是不需要太悲觀但是說他有技術上面有一些困難比如說水雷水雷他們派了艦隊是幾艘軍艦平行的往裡面開又開出來其實那個在測水道啦沒錯然後呢"},{"start":6525.523,"end":6547.708,"text":"伊朗的水雷叫做不負責任水雷,不是智慧水雷現在水雷叫他放了之後,尤其是伊朗的他們的第二次談話,就外交部現在從我們的主要盟友那邊得到的訊息荷姆茲海峽在交戰國下決定開放的結果是可期待或不可期待"},{"start":6549.368,"end":6561.388,"text":"我要說的話是說不需要太過於悲觀為什麼一定要用別的話來回答我的問題呢我想我們還是要審慎的來評估啦因為我們沒有參與到這個談判不能太悲觀但是也不敢太期待"},{"start":6562.954,"end":6590.235,"text":"我想期待還是可以期待啦我想整個大的一個情勢來看因為這很快大概十天內就會先排了上次這個我們不是你如果說可以期待後來先排是開放你就會被封神嘛對不對沒有沒有不敢那你說不能期待或者你講錯了被笑而已也不會怎樣嘛所以我的意思是說這一個你知道經濟裡面除了實質供應量實質需求量以外影響經濟有一個很重要的事"},{"start":6590.996,"end":6616.207,"text":"心理因素心理因素的穩定就不會囤積心理因素的穩定就不會搶購那個價格的波動其實以台灣這麼穩定的國家常常是因為心理因素所以我剛才用這個問題就叫兩個不一個是對外一個對內但是經濟部在物價上一定要把心理因素考慮在內過度的謹慎怕怎麼樣"},{"start":6617.407,"end":6643.549,"text":"其實如果你掌握的量,掌握的來源沒有問題,要讓民眾知道說你現在唱的不好,六月底我都賣掉了唱的也在賺,這個影響很大,好不好所以我希望今天祖密來了,回去讓部長知道,適度的時候心理因素是一個國家經濟物價安全很重要的一個因素,請兩個部會記在心裡面,謝謝是一定,謝謝"},{"start":6647.854,"end":6651.036,"text":"接下來請林楚英委員上台質詢謝主席主席有請我們外交部的陳次長以及我們經濟部的莊主任秘書請陳次長還有莊主任秘書謝謝次長好"},{"start":6673.889,"end":6698.431,"text":"因為時間比較短我想先進入就是巴西的這個問題巴西駐台灣的代表竟然在4月12號的時候直接幫我們定義了台灣是中國的一部分這個時間點是剛好席政會結束的時候結果他的說法竟然是說因為你們內部你們的在野黨主席也這樣說啊那麼基本上這件事情你們去抗議了沒有因為根據維也納的外交公約"},{"start":6700.072,"end":6719.525,"text":"的41條其實是不可以干預我們的內政這樣的一個做法根據國際法是不可以干預而根據維也納的外交公約的話像這樣的事情是可以列為不受歡迎人物但是我個人知道列為不受歡迎人物當然是比較嚴重一點但是選擇在這樣一個時間點真的非常不恰當"},{"start":6720.726,"end":6733.172,"text":"畢竟就算我們跟巴西沒有正常的邦交但是你要派人來當然除了邦交之外還有其他希望能夠兩邊互相推展的部分那麼面對這樣的一個狀況外交部做了什麼樣的一個後續的動作"},{"start":6738.694,"end":6755.54,"text":"報告委員,巴西駐台代表現在正在休假之中,在休假發這樣的一個不當的言論,我們第一時間表達我們的強烈的抗議與關切,也當面的約悟他,讓他知道這個狀況。我們後續還會演繹相關的一個行動,然後矯正這個。但是這個還是必須要在兼顧雙邊的關係以及可能性,外交的合乎這個儀節上面。"},{"start":6766.704,"end":6793.991,"text":"但我想跟委員報告很重要的一個狀況是講說國內的政治領袖對於這個中華民國存在的這個事必須要有一個非常清楚的一個認識不要被外人覺得是有機可乘尤其是中國利用這樣一個機會大肆的宣傳他的這個觀念那我覺得造成這樣一個遺憾其來有致那麼我覺得是說我們一方面那麼對於這個巴西這個最強烈的這個抗議"},{"start":6794.771,"end":6814.09,"text":"想起相應的一個措施二方面也期待國人都能夠對於中華民國台灣跟中華人民共和國互不隸屬這個事實大家能夠有非常清楚的一個掌握好 我知道對於外交部來講啦除了抗議之外手上沒有什麼武器所以我為什麼要請經濟部上來我記得"},{"start":6818.88,"end":6833.718,"text":"過去德國也曾經發聲對我們在外交上面給我們穿小鞋那我們就不輸入晶片我剛剛隨便google了一下巴西是台灣黃豆的第二進口國僅次於美國台灣每年進口230到260噸的大豆"},{"start":6838.343,"end":6859.201,"text":"然後巴西這位代表也曾經講過台灣仰賴的糧食進口當中肉類尤其是牛肉他很希望進口台灣所以本席現在就給你們一個方法台灣為什麼要跟巴西買這麼多的黃豆僅次於美國佔四成請問這個數據經濟部正確嗎"},{"start":6863.59,"end":6885.312,"text":"鮑威這部分比較涉及到農業部相關的數據沒有關係但是以這樣的趨勢正確嗎是第二的大豆進口台灣的國家正確嗎應該那個那個大體是正確的好如果是一個把台灣列為中國一部分"},{"start":6886.485,"end":6896.503,"text":"的一個代表講出這樣的話我們不能有實際上經濟的作為嗎今天的題目當然講的是有關於伊朗的部分但是能不能帶回去研究"},{"start":6897.557,"end":6923.96,"text":"因為我必須要講喔對於外交部來講他們只能抗議除了抗議之外那就是最嚴重把他趕走但是要顧及到巴西跟台灣之間兩國之間的更多的交流的時候我把他趕出去無濟於事但是台灣有他經濟的影響力跟經濟實力如果過去我們晶片可以不用輸出我們現在是不是我們大豆可以轉用其他的國家來買"},{"start":6925.342,"end":6940.263,"text":"這樣的一個方法是不是更有效更有效應因為這個影響到的是台灣有需求但台灣不是只需要跟巴西想本席身為國防外交委員我今天就在這裡請不論是外交部經濟部又或是剛剛提到的農委會"},{"start":6941.405,"end":6963.072,"text":"拿出我們該有的國格以及我們該有的政府的立場我們有武器但是要用就像韓國的事件一樣我們要找出方法來應對不是只是口頭上的抗議因為我當然知道因為台灣在內部關於這個國家認同主權認同的部分有些人願意跪"},{"start":6964.292,"end":6979.304,"text":"但是我們身為執政黨我們身為行政團隊我們身為外交單位我們身為主管機關我們不能跪我們甚至於不能躺平所以在這個部分本席給你提出一個方法你們可以不可以回去研議"},{"start":6980.485,"end":6998.258,"text":"我們當然願意跟委員報告,所以不管在糧食,不管在能源上面,多元化一定是一個必要的一個因素。那麼所以是說,現在我們的重要的邦交國巴拉圭,他也很希望能夠跟我們舊黃豆上面有更多的合作。那我們也現在跟這個農業部密切的一個配合。"},{"start":7001.38,"end":7024.227,"text":"希望能夠在這個議題上面發揮這個總和外交的一個理念讓我們能夠第一方面就能源就這個這個糧食上面能夠有多元化的一個來源二方面是說能夠強化我們跟這個盟邦這個巴拉圭畢竟是我們在南美最重要的一個盟邦也是唯一的一個盟邦所以我們要跟他加強關係"},{"start":7024.907,"end":7050.445,"text":"所以剛才在說到的是說肉品我們現在從巴拉圭進的這個牛肉那麼豬肉現在還在研議這個其他的這個東西這的確都是構成我們的整個糧食韌性的一個部分所以很感謝委員的一個建議那外交部一定是回去不是啦我們不是研議我們現在已經知道有這個狀況我們現在要強化的是跟跨部會的一個合作讓我們這樣的一個vision像委員這樣的一個想法能夠得到實現"},{"start":7051.226,"end":7063.191,"text":"好所以本席希望給你們一個時間點你們多久以內可以召開這樣的一個會議然後可以給我一個具體的方向不要是今天質詢完了然後就當作沒事因為我認為這個就是挑釁既然挑釁我們就有作為我把你繼續留下來我也不會上綱道把你列為不受歡迎為物因為沒有用口會時不會經濟對於這些國家來說才是重點因為本席要特別強調喔中國"},{"start":7077.478,"end":7085.683,"text":"在我們的這個拉美地區的友邦不斷的都是透過滲透以及經濟利誘但是我必須要說中國現在自己的經濟下滑跟我們在經濟的成長的表現完全是只有二分之一他也沒有那麼多的經濟動能所以從巴拉圭、薩爾瓦多再到宏都、拉斯尼加瓜通通吃了悶虧所以在這樣的狀況底下我自己認為你們必須要有積極的動作有動作才能夠"},{"start":7104.853,"end":7111.898,"text":"有效果所以可不可以給我一個時間點我不要來定你們我們這個定期在這個行政院下面都有一個經濟外交工作小組那麼這是一個跨部會的會議我們會把這個議題帶到下一次的這個經濟外交工作小組上面同時外交部當然會繼續的那個表達我們的抗議也尋求一些其他創意的方法來跟他們表達我們對於他們在這個對於我們的主權的論述上面有一個不恰當的一個說法"},{"start":7135.193,"end":7161.228,"text":"好 那麼下一次開會是什麼時候我們下一次這個經濟工作這要看那個行政院的進度不然我們會請那個是不是在進行好 那我希望你們一個月內先給我一個報告給我們外交委會一個報告看看你們到底在這個跨部會當中因為監統委會沒有來那我知道對經濟部來說因為這個部分就是這樣我再一次強調台灣不可以很跨部啦我們自己要站著跟他們做"},{"start":7162.549,"end":7184.778,"text":"交易做談判是爭回我們自己的面子絕對不能躺平好嗎當然那我們一定是這個跟平等待我的其他的國家平等的一個交往互相尊重那也是這是榮邦計畫的一個重要的一個重點也感謝這個委員佩服委員這個非常完整的一個認識也謝謝委員的這個指導我們一定這個遵辦好謝謝"},{"start":7188.952,"end":7193.236,"text":"好 謝謝接下來請沈伯陽委員上台質詢好 謝謝主席 也請次長 謝謝請陳次長"},{"start":7215.632,"end":7230.162,"text":"委員好好 市長好那這個就是這次電子的入境卡那對方看起來是把那個欄位先暫時就是不需要再填上去那我想知道的事情就是說這個整個溝通的過程因為現在看起來是有一個好的結果"},{"start":7230.842,"end":7251.008,"text":"那這整個溝通的過程因為中間我們在詢問的時候呢也不好讓這一個外交部就直接公開說我們就是應該要怎麼處理或什麼之類這個都在外交上可能不是那麼好的事但現在因為告一個段落所以我想知道就是說在因為這個時間算是蠻長的那這個整個溝通的過程當中遇到了什麼阻礙那我們的方法是什麼"},{"start":7252.269,"end":7276.268,"text":"報告委員,那麼在這個過程之中我們也提醒了這個韓方必須要基於兩邊人民密切的往來這個事實上面能夠正視我們國家的一個適當的稱呼所以在這個交涉的過程裡面我們對韓方表達了這樣的一個東西但是我說一個實在的就是說在這個事情上面我們必須要務實以對那麼韓方一樣面對到中國非常大的一個壓力"},{"start":7276.728,"end":7296.156,"text":"所以我們希望在這個事情上面我們心裡面我們知道這樣一個什麼回事但是我們都給予韓方一個空間就是需要一些時間來做一個調整那我們對於這個韓國現在推出的這個相當程度上面這個便利旅客的這個相關的一個務實的一個做法"},{"start":7296.556,"end":7316.706,"text":"我們是感覺到是歡迎這樣的一個做法那麼我們也會持續的滾動檢討我們跟這個韓國的這個關係是不是在其他的方面能夠得到好的一個提升尤其是說我們都是在同樣在這個區域的國家我們跟這個韓國那麼有密切的一個往來同樣的一個安全的一個圖像"},{"start":7317.786,"end":7339.283,"text":"同樣的這個民間的這個不管是教育文化各種方面的一個交流我們跟韓方明確的表達我們重視這個東西我們正視這個東西也希望韓方一樣的來value這樣的一個事情所以我們感覺到很好的是說我們把這樣的一個訴求給韓方那麼他們也在務實的一個考慮之下那麼來做了一個相對應的一個調整韓方"},{"start":7341.645,"end":7357.96,"text":"基於這樣一個行政簡化的考慮來做一個他們的電子路徑卡的調整那我們覺得這是一個非常好的作為我們也歡迎這樣的一個做法那麼我們也了解這個過程之中"},{"start":7358.516,"end":7375.162,"text":"那麼裡面所牽涉到的很多的這個部分我們跟恆邦的這個東西我想這個很多的這個內部的一個種種那也牽涉到兩邊的這個互動交往的一個秘密我們就不詳述但是我們看到是一個正面的一個結果是好的"},{"start":7375.662,"end":7399.633,"text":"對 因為我覺得就是說 這個次長剛剛我覺得講的有一個觀念是很好的就是說呢 我們是會強調我們在跟他們期待不管是文化啦 教育啦 等等之類的一個交流這個交流是持續的 我們不會說因為一個單一事件然後就是說 那其他的交流我們是不是要停止我們現在目前的做法是點對點就是說 他今天做的是跟國民有關的所以我們之前也有放出來說 欸 我們是不是也要做跟國民有關"},{"start":7400.313,"end":7421.352,"text":"那這件事情重要是因為我看到很多人當然可能因為這個事件對韓國產生了一些不滿的情緒那這個情緒呢在外交上面我們不能讓它蔓延到其他的領域因為畢竟整件事情始作俑者一定都還是中國嘛所以說這都是跟中國有關的打壓才會有這樣的一個境界那我們今天如果人民有這樣的一個情緒的時候我們應該把它導引到告訴大家講說"},{"start":7422.433,"end":7446.028,"text":"這是中國的問題,中國在施壓的問題,我們要去找那個源頭他們自己也要丟那個源頭,我們也要所以在這個基礎之下,怎麼去使它改變,這個其實是外交上的藝術當然就慢慢在這邊講這也是為什麼中國在世界上面被視之為一個不良的影響,一個non-influence的原因就是在這個地方"},{"start":7446.508,"end":7474.32,"text":"他常常會把自己的意志強加在這個國際事業上面企圖顛覆那麼以規則為基礎的國際秩序那我想這個在跟中國交往過在這幾年我想世界上主要的國家都越來越有清楚的認識了對那接下來就是說因為丹麥現在我們也是在溝通當中那之前這一個部長在講的時候是說那其實呢他更像是其中幾位就是這個官僚體系裡面的成員的堅持那這件事情的進度呢"},{"start":7475.483,"end":7487.05,"text":"這個相關的一個進度我們在上次取消若干他們駐台的一個特權我們雙方都還在接觸在談的過程裡面那麼詳細我們是不是請我們的歐洲司稍微再做一個簡要的報告"},{"start":7489.845,"end":7509.68,"text":"我們除了取消他的特權禮遇我想我們還會進一步來限縮雙方現在都還在溝通之中我們的一些朋友包括國會議員包括媒體的朋友丹麥媒體的朋友也都非常清楚的表達對台灣的支持我們希望持續的予以擔當壓力"},{"start":7510.501,"end":7523.196,"text":"因為我看丹麥的這些媒體還有人民他們其實對這件事情並不是直接站在丹麥政府的那一方所以我覺得這個可能是一些官僚體系上的一些溝通這個就再請黃市長再多加把勁"},{"start":7527.681,"end":7551.884,"text":"看能不能嘗試把它扭轉過來一定一定我們現在是說這相關的這個東西我們都有這個他說要透過各方面的一個努力那我們知道說丹麥的民意其實是支持台灣的所以是說在這個基礎之上我們要動員各種有我的力量能夠促成他們做一個好的一個改變好謝謝那我接下來要問經濟部是有請這個經濟部的主秘謝謝"},{"start":7558.117,"end":7579.068,"text":"因為時間的因素我就比較快速的問就是說有兩次一次就是在4月8號大概是一個禮拜以前那時候說我們預計4月有4艘郵輪共約8萬騰的原油自鴻海陸續輸出那這件事情跟之前再更早一點是3月多的時候那個時候這個富比士雜誌有說台灣最多是撐個100天左右等等之類的"},{"start":7583.55,"end":7600.109,"text":"因為從3月20一直到剛剛講的這個4月8號然後一直到現在因為這個是每天都在變化那目前最新的狀況評估是如何我們這些我們的不管是我們的存量這些到底有沒有可能如期的到達台灣然後如期到達台灣那有沒有更多目前經濟部的評估如何"},{"start":7600.689,"end":7621.807,"text":"跟委員報告其實二月底中東戰爭開始以來其實進一步我們就馬上成立能源應變小組而且是每天開會因為我們次長每天召集向中油相關的一個機關那我們細到程度包含向委員關心的我們會掌握我們現在從到目前我們已經掌握到六月底我們可以需要本來從那個會經過橫浦之海峽的傳輸有多少"},{"start":7625.35,"end":7654.251,"text":"那因為這些因素他可能沒有辦法順利出口我們替代的來源包含除了剛剛講委員所提到我們從中東地區換其他的出口點之外我們會找其他非中東地區所以我們現在已經完全掌握到六月底我們本來需要經過某座海峽的一個船隻的一個替代方案所以六月底目前所有的來源都已經掌握得非常清楚而且可以穩定供應而且不影響原來的安全存量OK那因為這個戰事到底會怎樣我們都抓不得準嘛"},{"start":7654.631,"end":7673.794,"text":"那即使我們今天像聽起來到六月底這個目前是安全的但因為油價這種事情更多的是預期的心理那一旦有這些預期的心理的影響等等之類的波動我知道我們現在也是每個禮拜都有這個物價這個穩定的這個波動的這個小組要做應對那因為畢竟在台灣會需要用油的"},{"start":7675.055,"end":7689.422,"text":"司機們還有職業駕駛等等之類的所以現在我是在想說就是經濟部這一邊如果是針對一些就是職業駕駛它一定程度的一些補助等等之類的這個目前是不是已經有在規劃"},{"start":7691.008,"end":7707.085,"text":"其實我們已經連續兩週動漲我們的油價了那其實這已經是我們針對油價會對國內剛提到的就是職業價值或甚至對國內整體物價可能影響的一個因應措施因為我們也觀察到其他國家也是擔心他們"},{"start":7709.146,"end":7726.074,"text":"油價對物價影響所以很多國家也都是在掌控他們國內相關油價或是石油原料所衍生的相關產品的一個售價那目前國內的做法其實也會朝穩定國內物價方向來努力對 這個是指供給面嘛就是說供給面這邊的價格我們想要把它穩定嘛"},{"start":7726.494,"end":7747.169,"text":"我講的是另外一方面就是需求的這一方那需求的這一方他有多少的補助或者說他有沒有什麼方案可以搭配這個對他對於未來的這個安全感一定會有加強所以這個部分雖然因為時間的關係可能沒有辦法把它問完但是可能之後我會想再知道就是說我們在需求面這一邊我們對他們的幫助有沒有一些比較制度化的做法"},{"start":7747.523,"end":7748.544,"text":"接下來請王安祥委員上台質詢"},{"start":7782.318,"end":7782.68,"text":"呃 謝謝趙偉豪 有請次長請陳次長"},{"start":7793.635,"end":7822.244,"text":"市長早 早 委員長我想最近中東的情勢其實非常詭譎今天早上好像川普又講了另外又講了不一樣的東西我想所以今天這個其實非常重要來感謝召集我今天要問的比較特殊其實在你們的報告裡面在第九頁也有其實有關於人道援助的部分我想這一次其實中東的形勢"},{"start":7823.264,"end":7839.833,"text":"聯合國他們已經說了他們覺得這個衝突加劇尤其在081那邊已經大概有百萬人流離失所了而且他說這個裡面有37萬名是兒童我想這個應該符合我們現在人道援助的一個標準了吧是"},{"start":7841.991,"end":7860.32,"text":"當然我們對於世界上面所有的地方發生戰災等等的而導致的流亡屍所或是相關人道的狀況我們都一向是願意伸出援手當然是說我們也要尋求適當的管道如何去提供相關的人道協助"},{"start":7860.86,"end":7884.029,"text":"對 所以現在不管是糧食計畫他們都提供了一些糧食的緊急援助甚至連心理支援其實都有另外像醫療當然更不用講了目前大概醫療物資有非常非常多而且支援他們大概幾百位上千位的一些患者接受一些治療然後社會組織還聯合聯合國基金會跟聯合國基金會也運了大概35萬對關鍵的物資過去"},{"start":7888.351,"end":7915.409,"text":"那我也有看了一下這個外交部過去的這個整個預算的部分我這邊手上大概114年度我們在那個科目03的部分其實對於這個部分包含這個所謂國際之關懷救援之重建這個部分其實編了蠻多的預算那我不曉得現在外部有沒有比較具體的一些作為的打算我們請一下那個亞非市是不是能夠救我們那委員是要討論說中東地區的話"},{"start":7919.232,"end":7932.327,"text":"跟委員報告,在中東地區的話我們之前是有提供巴勒斯坦的一些援助主要透過國際的非政府組織通過這個廣告"},{"start":7935.711,"end":7961.064,"text":"那所以說就是有一些人道的援助的話也要看有沒有適當的一些NGO來協助我們再來做對 是這樣因為我會問這一點其實我不曉得外交部應該有掌握到韓國他上個月其實這個禮拜那邊他大概就捐了大概200萬美金那今天早上就昨天晚上的這個新聞他沒有宣布大概透過這個紅十字"},{"start":7963.684,"end":7977.365,"text":"國際委員會來 因為捐了大概五十萬的美金所以因為今天我們的主題也跟我們亞太關係有關係看起來我們的鄰國韓國他們這個動作倒是蠻主動的所以我才問說外部有沒有比較確定機器的一些作為"},{"start":7978.586,"end":8005.874,"text":"那因為這個黎巴嫩當然是最近這個大家關注的是不是有一些人道救援的這個需求那這個部分其實是我們駐約旦代表處那我們也可以來研究對因為主要今天我看到這個標題因為它的標題下說什麼這個南韓宣布外交部特使前往其實這個跟國際關係有一些非常微妙的一些狀況所以我才會問外交部的一個立場"},{"start":8007.555,"end":8022.276,"text":"外部立場是說我們也可以啊我們都隨時都準備而且我們不管是在從這個政府的立場但政府我們外交部還是受限於這個預算的規模啦因為現在整個我們的預算的狀況還是沒辦法"},{"start":8023.477,"end":8047.907,"text":"就還是沿用原來的這個預算嘛那如果說新的預算能夠通過我們可能有比較對這邊應該可以沿用一些嘛因為這個我看起來沿用的部分我們再來研究看看但是另外一個我們會跟這個民間的NGO組織比如說慈濟等等我們知道慈濟在全球都是有非常強烈的所以市長是不是有一些比較明確的也可以提供我們辦公室大概做一個參考沒問題"},{"start":8048.427,"end":8075.243,"text":"好 那另外一個就是昨天 這個應該是拉美斯吧就是昨天的記者會好像有特別提到這件事就是這個洪都拉斯我覺得這個昨天是一個很好的一個訊息感覺說他們當醫院的時候就有在提我覺得這個過去我們的邦交我們2023跟他 三月嘛 跟他斷交不過現在看起來好像機會很好那個市長是不是可以趁這個機會再跟大家說明一下這個狀況 洪都拉斯的部分"},{"start":8077.655,"end":8092.434,"text":"是 謝謝委員那個洪都拉斯最近的狀況是他們的媒體啊是一直在報導就是它南部的這個白蝦產業的崩潰是 好像跟這個中國有關係嘛對不對對 因為建交以後洪都拉斯跟中國建交以後"},{"start":8092.934,"end":8119.414,"text":"他們以為中國會允諾採購替代台灣採購那實際上2025年最後的數據統計我們雖然已經跟他沒有自由貿易協定恢復關稅我們的採購量還是中國的七倍所以中國所有的承諾已經變成一個壞點那我跟施市長就一下我們查到一些資料好像他們的人過去的蠻多人跟過去相較來說好像過去的紅豆大師很多的人過去不曉得是金山還是怎麼樣這個狀況市長應該也有掌握吧"},{"start":8122.774,"end":8141.991,"text":"這樣子這個中國跟一些國家就是我們前五方建交以後他們會大量的開始做傾銷然後利用各種的狀況他有一些商人過去經營所以市長意思是說雖然人都派過去可是看起來他們的經貿雙方就所謂利差的部分好像並沒有獲得很明顯的改善"},{"start":8142.831,"end":8161.643,"text":"對 其實實際上大家都很清楚跟中國的貿易逆差是逐漸擴大是 因為又提到另外一個議會的結構我看起來不管是他們這個國家黨或者是自由黨這樣合起來好像都是多數啦這看起來跟我們這個外交的關係看起來是非常有機會啦不曉得次長跟次長"},{"start":8162.663,"end":8167.89,"text":"這個是不是樂觀看到我們在這個上面我們審慎的樂觀那麼我們也知道說在國會裡面有強烈的一個支持他的這個議長副議長都紛紛的發言表示支持感覺真的是蠻有機會的"},{"start":8178.943,"end":8193.149,"text":"在這個事情上我跟委員報告還是有一個很大的一個障礙就是說因為跟中國建交之後那麼現在的是政府也要去盤點跟了解他們之前的前任的政府在卡士蘇的時候簽下了多少的這個協約"},{"start":8194.79,"end":8218.54,"text":"那這個東西會不會斷交跟中國如果改變邦交之後會不會直接影響衝擊他的經濟當然他跟我們說需要一些時間那我們的外交上面當然是說一直都是特殊的一個處境我們都有非常彈性的一個作為所以一定願意給那些友誼跟我們做朋友的一些時間也提供我們需要的一個協助能夠幫他"},{"start":8219.62,"end":8234.444,"text":"Buffer掉一些這個可能的經濟的所以我們也希望這個不管是國內的我們所有的都對這個事情非常關注我們也希望很快可以聽到一些比較更正向的消息感謝我們一起來期待很快有好消息好 感謝謝謝委員好 謝謝接下來請黃建斌委員上台質詢"},{"start":8254.54,"end":8255.243,"text":"請經濟部請經濟部莊主席"},{"start":8264.659,"end":8287.915,"text":"委員好 主秘好 主秘這一場美伊戰爭從二二八打到現在 本期中也沒有所謂的贏家那戰爭開打後導致國際能源供應短缺 然後也連帶整個石化製品的價格高漲那像前陣子才發生這個台灣發生這個垃圾袋之亂導致很多商家跟民眾的權利變成受害者"},{"start":8288.675,"end":8298.98,"text":"我想從這一次的中東石油危機我們學到一個教訓就是能源取得要多元那能源除了多元外風險要分散這是經濟部自己說的未來的規劃會持續"},{"start":8301.643,"end":8321.701,"text":"會朝這方向嘛對不對可是我們從進一步看到的規劃是未來是擴大對美國能源採購的佔比就是規劃未來對美國採購LNG的比例像目前的10%左右增加到2029要達到25%那顯然我們的管道能源管道的多元就是增加從美國來的這些比例"},{"start":8322.421,"end":8350.461,"text":"那從現在的態勢來看戰爭短時間應該不會結束那如果有極端的情況經濟部說你們會採取三種方式來確保天然氣的供應第一個就是提前的調貨優先從美國、澳洲這些地方來調度天然氣第二個就是亞洲護援就是從我們日本、韓國這些鄰近的國家我們來互相來支援第三個就是買足現貨來補足就是從市場直接採購然後來補足這個缺口那本期想要請教主秘說那這個三個措施"},{"start":8351.221,"end":8362.489,"text":"顯然都是要跟其他國家來購買或者是調度那在這個時間點上本席認為這個價格一定也不便宜那多出來的費用是由誰來承擔會不會轉嫁到民眾的身上"},{"start":8364.358,"end":8373.95,"text":"跟委員報告我想如同委員所理解的其實目前如果我們要增加就是替代本來要從中東進來我們之前的長約的貨的話就是現在市場上買現貨跟提前取貨"},{"start":8381.34,"end":8406.857,"text":"那現在市場上因為從二月底戰爭以來整個布蘭特園油已經上漲了71%那杜拜油已經上漲77%所以國際的現貨價格其實也都持續在上漲更不用講說它運費還有保險費其實也都在上漲所以目前我們現貨取得的價格一定會比以前我們常越來的高那目前我們勢必在整個那個國內的一個售價部分就造成一定的壓力"},{"start":8407.737,"end":8422.958,"text":"那從2月底到目前我們國內油價才漲17%所以相較之前的國際能源價格其實我們那個溢低整個油價漲幅非常多那我們一直對外宣布的就是這完全的價差都是靠中油來吸收所以目前中油已經吸收了107億元"},{"start":8426.994,"end":8454.769,"text":"所以這些未來會轉嫁到民眾的身上嗎我們現在主要是採三個方向第一個希望政府的預算可以來撥補來協助中油但另外就是我們會協助中油來做增資或是融資來減輕他的那個財政壓力所以這樣支持之下我們希望能夠再兼顧整個國內物價因為能源價格勢必我們也擔心他對國內物價造成一定的一個影響所以我們會考慮這些因素然後再做試探"},{"start":8454.889,"end":8463.556,"text":"主委剛好提到撥補中油這件事情那其實民眾也好奇想要了解說那中油我們政府會補貼那如果民營企業像台塑那我們也會補貼嗎"},{"start":8465.047,"end":8492.858,"text":"跟委員報 其實目前台塑事實上因為它取得原油價格的來源跟取得原油的價格跟來源部分都受到影響所以其實適度它有做一些影響它有適度做一些減產不過我們因為要穩定國內供應部分我們一直在希望台塑以減少外銷跟穩定國內的需求為主那至於針對台塑的部分呢我想我們在這段時間完之後我們會再討論跟"},{"start":8494.619,"end":8509.723,"text":"台塑之間所以目前是沒有補台塑之外我們是沒有補貼的其實目前中油部分也都還沒有補因為剛講的是那個我們未來希望能夠執行的方向也希望立法院這邊能夠支持我們對中油的協助措施"},{"start":8510.253,"end":8511.815,"text":"這周開始就會提供平價垃圾袋"},{"start":8528.553,"end":8551.633,"text":"是吧那本期這邊強調說台東縣是偏鄉然後又是整個銷售的末端那不要因為我們的需求量較其他的縣市少而被忽略也希望這部分能夠供應到台東縣這樣的需求是 謝謝委員提醒我想每個縣市我們都會絕對讓民眾可以買到平價的那個垃圾袋好 謝謝謝謝主秘 接下來我們請我們的外交部次長請陳次長"},{"start":8557.777,"end":8574.887,"text":"國元好市長好市長我們總統府宣布4月22到4月26我們要率團總統要率團拜訪我們的友邦史瓦帝尼那史瓦帝尼是中國民國在非洲唯一的邦交國是從1968年建交到現在對我們非常的忠貞跟忠誠"},{"start":8576.208,"end":8595.863,"text":"58年所以這個本席非常支持那過去我們陳水扁執政時期有推動這個叫新洋專案就透過拜訪中南美洲啊一些非洲友邦國家順便繞道去美國那因為當時的兩岸的環境跟台美關係那所以那時候就一直不斷的被調整"},{"start":8596.644,"end":8611.405,"text":"整個行程嘛那直到最後一天才說我讓你經過然後再不就是夏威夷吧和阿拉斯加只能中途加油這樣子對不對那有沒有可能我們這一次的因為這一次"},{"start":8613.588,"end":8628.253,"text":"總統出訪因為說要避免中東的戰火的危險所以我們這次才叫保守直航的方式那有沒有可能因為外面很關心說有沒有可能會有一些意外的驚喜比如說在第三地忽然間停下來或見了什麼人有沒有可能是這樣子"},{"start":8629.417,"end":8659.177,"text":"目前就我們的了解並沒有這樣的一個規劃我們覺得是說我們重視非洲這個最重要的一個友邦所以我們是說用直航的一個直飛的一個方式是表達我們的總統也公務繁忙那麼能夠在考量種種的權衡之下我們採取直航直飛的一個方式來做是一個最恰當同時他們直飛差不多是13個小時左右那麼這樣也是比較便利舒適的一個方式"},{"start":8659.497,"end":8688.017,"text":"市長因為像前陣子我們的卓院長忽然間在日本出現看棒球經典賽那時候其實很多的學者跟一些委員都非常的讚賞說是重大的台日重大的這個突破因為1972年斷交之後沒有一個行政院長踏上日本的國土所以這個東西我們期待說會不會有這樣的一個意外的佈局就更彈性的方式意外剛好看到這些東西讓台灣的國際在我們的外交在國際上又有一個新的突破"},{"start":8688.877,"end":8700.742,"text":"這樣不可能嗎?我想我們還是循序漸進,穩紮穩打建立在良好的基礎上面,讓他們彼此了解這次總統出訪任務單純,我們就是要去慶賀兩國的友誼同時也是慶賀死亡58歲的雙58非常重要的一個狀況,所以我們會"},{"start":8712.248,"end":8731.865,"text":"讓他的任務更加的這個專一同時在總統在這個使國有相當多的行程所以是說目前就我們的了解並沒有什麼其他的額外的一個規劃那麼當然這個具體的一個行程到時候有什麼樣的一個狀況還是由總統府來做這個對外做宣布"},{"start":8733.366,"end":8754.256,"text":"市長有講到這次去世主要是他登記40年嘛對不對40週年跟他58歲的滑蛋那同時我們應該也要從本席了解是要推動的戰略要信念戰略的除油草提升斯瓦帝里的能力源安全那跟本席從經濟部國貿局的資料來看斯瓦帝蘭2023年全國失業率達到34.5%其中35歲以下人口佔市國人口約7成"},{"start":8762.34,"end":8787.666,"text":"那青年失業的問題已經造成嚴重的社會問題通貨膨脹在4%以上顯然看來最近史瓦帝蘭的經濟情況並不是很好也沒有預期這樣那市長我們跟他建交也超過也將近60年60年時間我們其實也大量拖不少的資源跟人力過去那以你來看那這60年這樣子他這樣的表現算是好嗎他的國家發展"},{"start":8788.266,"end":8807.484,"text":"當然美國在面對它的一個挑戰那麼斯瓦帝尼他身處在這個南北的旁邊有一個一定的磁吸的效應但總的來說也反映今天這個非洲的一個發展它面對到的挑戰以及它可能存在的一個機會社會交部的作為著重在於是說把這個機會能夠活化實現非常年輕的人口"},{"start":8808.064,"end":8826.133,"text":"那麼失業率很高所以我們是希望能夠讓我們的台商也看到在這個地方是可以作為深耕非洲市場的一個跳板一個機會所以我們在這個地方有一個這個台灣這個創新工業園區這次總統去也會去巡視那麼也做剪彩"},{"start":8828.171,"end":8841.457,"text":"在推動之中,我們這個包括戰備儲備等等的東西我們的相信就是說,不是只是給他援助而是能夠讓他加入到全球的經濟裡面對,那對他也要有幫助吧"},{"start":8845.779,"end":8868.954,"text":"有投資就業另外是說對於他的產的這個一些特殊的這個農產品我們也安排透過我們現在新成立的這個榮邦經貿辦公室要來拓展他的一個產品那總的來說我們是提供一個比較完整的一個一個一個協助的一個方案就是像這個常常會有外面的話說這個給人魚吃不如獸人魚"},{"start":8870.515,"end":8888.684,"text":"那我們這個想法就是說,我們要把這個產業帶去,把工作帶過去,把工作的階級帶過去,穩定他的社會。市長,本席會這樣問就是,其實我們唯一一個在非洲的邦交國,我們都希望他能夠因為我們的幫助而強大,藉由這個基地然後拓展我們在非洲的影響力,對不對?應該是這樣吧?是,沒錯。"},{"start":8890.185,"end":8913.221,"text":"那但是我們看到這六十年來其實他的狀況並不是很好這部分是不是我們也要來思考一下關於的話當然還未到公衛的一個挑戰所以這也是我們在醫療外交上面要去協助的地方這邊有比較大的一些患病的人口在這個事情上面我們也請了幾家醫院特別根據這個死國的一個需要設計他們公衛的一個相關的計畫"},{"start":8914.662,"end":8929.331,"text":"謝謝市長 我後面再補充就是說我們剛才提到外交的方式其實本席還建議其實還有一個地方我們可以去參訪就是梵蒂岡所以我們跟梵蒂岡是有正式建交的嘛對不對是 這我們歐洲唯一的一個邦交國對 而且台灣的天主教徒多耶"},{"start":8929.591,"end":8944.837,"text":"很多像我們的前行政院長他就是天主教徒我們如果說會擔心跟中國的關係我們可以透過更彈性的方式比如說宗教的方式或是參訪的方式去建立我想這個都是有正面幫助"},{"start":8945.757,"end":8960.274,"text":"我們台東縣也很多的天主教徒我想這樣子的方式 透過不同的方式我想外交本來就是不容易推動可以更彈性我們都可以不小心在棒球場出現有沒有可能還有其他方式可以讓更多看到台灣這個是我們可以努力的"},{"start":8960.834,"end":8986.193,"text":"我們當然一定都努力跟各種各樣就是現在台灣的一個處境我不能夠說台灣現在處境非常的困難但的確是有挑戰我們會尋求所有的一個方法來有一些新的一個好的一個發展那鞏固我們在國際的一個參與能夠成為一個國際負責任的議員我想這個越來越能夠讓世界看到也謝謝委員的這個指導我們一定會遵辦好 謝謝市長 謝謝 謝謝主席好 謝謝"},{"start":8990.646,"end":9002.615,"text":"接下來請許曉鑫委員上台質詢謝謝主席我們是不是有請陳次長請陳次長好"},{"start":9012.252,"end":9027.991,"text":"今天這個又有出現關於這個跟洪都拉斯是否要復交的新聞那我想先請教一下我們提到要與洪都拉斯復交這樣的一個開始是大概從什麼時候開始有這樣的進行這樣的一個討論"},{"start":9029.232,"end":9057.352,"text":"從他這個紅國去年這個選舉主要的那個時候的在野黨都提出了要跟台灣復交那這也是說他從2023年跟這個無與我斷交跟這個中華人民共和國建交以來那麼其實他們的產業並沒有得到提升是的我們都知道但是我們是要問說那既然他們當初做出這樣子的主張那我們也有深深的期待能夠有復交等於說回復一個邦交國"},{"start":9058.092,"end":9078.54,"text":"那為什麼其實到現在都已經四月了我們沒有看到確實的進度只看到新聞媒體上面不斷的有相關的放話不是說放話 我跟委員報告我跟你們講放話的意思就是說你們沒有具名是誰講的那就我就這麼說好不好那個我跟委員報告 那麼因為雖然跟這個紅國跟這個中國建交時間不長"},{"start":9083.222,"end":9108.392,"text":"但是現在我們得到的一個訊息是紅國並不完全了解前任的政府跟中國簽下了多少的相關的一些協議其實我很擔心帥兒跟中國斷交跟我們復交會不會產生一些很大的他們比較謹慎我們也尊重所以我們現在逐步的來考量看看他們能夠得到相關的一個訊息"},{"start":9108.712,"end":9128.221,"text":"副交部的今天新聞寫說認為他們跟台灣復交的步驟會很謹慎是指的是洪都拉斯方面會很謹慎是嗎洪都拉斯方面會推轉得很謹慎就主要還是擔心過去前任政府所留下來的他們說的地雷"},{"start":9128.821,"end":9151.42,"text":"那我們在這個事情上面當然也會跟他一起來開神佈所以您的意思是就您現在目前的掌握只要再將前一任政府跟中國大陸這邊他們所簽下的一些相關的協議那有了初步的判斷整理之後他們就會遂行跟中華民國復交是嗎"},{"start":9151.88,"end":9161.103,"text":"現在它的盤點啦,我覺得是說就我們現在得到的一個訊息是說他們請我們現在先這個稍安勿躁,實現他們的,我覺得機率不高耶,他們這個是一個競選的時候的承諾"},{"start":9167.965,"end":9188.808,"text":"對啊 那很多人競選程度也都沒做到啊賴清德總統很多競選程度也都沒做到啊我們台灣也都是這樣子啊那洪都拉斯他們也是自己國家自己民情我也不一定就是說我們從我們國家的現實主義的利益來說我們也不可能就是說全然相信別人跟我們講的就一定是真的吧如果總是要這麼天真的話那我們的外交該怎麼樣前進呢"},{"start":9190.089,"end":9218.332,"text":"是我是說我們有沒有評估說他們今天的這些說法有可能是托詞如果你認為不是托詞的話那你的理由跟依據又是什麼沒有那個我們持續有在雙方互動溝通啦同時我們還有很多的其他的這個國家也在協助我們能夠這個往這個台紅赴交的方向很多國家是像什麼樣的國家比如我們的重要的友邦這個美國他們在整個的國家戰略裡面提到他們的所謂的西半球的這個優先"},{"start":9219.733,"end":9239.386,"text":"但事情上面是說我們在很多的時候跟這個美國有良好的互動溝通那我們也看到是說這個紅國的這個主要的政治領導人當他們有機會跟美國接觸的時候那他們現在跟中國大陸的這個交往是如何的是有暫停掉了還是說其實實際上還是交往非常密切"},{"start":9240.426,"end":9245.312,"text":"我請一下我們的韓司長稍微細節上面再跟委員報告一下他是駐中國的大使1月26號跟前政府就一起辭職了到現在他還沒有任命"},{"start":9256.525,"end":9281.154,"text":"所以現在目前沒有任命大使好 那我了解了那我們也對這個事情是有期待的那希望呢當然對方有要謹慎的地方我們都可以理解但是希望我們能夠恢復一個邦交國這對中華民國來說是相當重要的那為什麼我剛剛會講到就是說我們對於其他國家的說法必須要很謹慎而且要做多方面的考量主要跟像我們像是CPTPP也是一樣的"},{"start":9282.094,"end":9305.372,"text":"我們都知道政府在對外宣示爭取加入CPTPP這件事情實際上在執行層次上面是消極是敷衍的也沒有具體的時程跟規劃所以說其實我們看到3月的時候卓榮泰院長他講到就是說針對CPTPP要重新盤點然後設定目標跟時間表要由經濟部跟外交部來分工推進"},{"start":9306.172,"end":9312.995,"text":"可是從那時候到現在請問一下我們有沒有檢討一下那到底要怎麼樣去改進啊"},{"start":9314.254,"end":9324.857,"text":"報告委員在CPTPP上面我去年因為擔任相關的主管業務我也拜訪了好幾個國家遊說我們的陸會案的確國際有一些現實以我們現在的經貿大國來說我也希望能夠塑造一個有我的氣氛請問一下為什麼你看起來很積極為什麼我們的經貿當初的談判我們就不談特別的名字了"},{"start":9343.843,"end":9370.389,"text":"那就是說有參與到這個事情裡面的同仁他們認為說是非常消極的他的說法看起來跟你是差異很大這個我們尊重當事人的感覺啦但就外交部來說全力以赴我去了拜訪了英國 拜訪了澳洲 拜訪了加拿大英國是新加入的我除了傳達我們要加入的這個意願那同時也跟他討論是說到底我們遇到的困難在哪裡"},{"start":9371.209,"end":9385.18,"text":"我們也希望從英國那邊學到是說怎麼樣是能夠加入他準備哪一些的你跟他學沒有用啊我們這個狀況差很多啊去年部長在這個委員會我就問過他那時候部長他講到說我們已經跟12個會員國裡面的其中一個會員國進行實質的討論那請問目前有增加嗎"},{"start":9394.227,"end":9415.78,"text":"實質討論喔 不是說是敗會實質討論要讓人家讓我們推進到CPTPP的部分從去年11月的時候林佳龍部長他講說是一個那到現在請問增加到幾個人呢?那麼就具體的數字喔 我想是說我們還是在努力之中啦對 那當初林佳龍部長可以告訴我是一個那現在為什麼不能講啦?"},{"start":9416.65,"end":9441.697,"text":"現在沒有不能講 這還是一個的意思因為去年的時候是澳洲擔任主席所以我特別去澳洲一趟但是去年很可惜到我們有提出陸會的一個方法的新的訴求包括說能夠成立這個工作小組部長都有跟我說 沒有得到正面的回應"},{"start":9443.477,"end":9465.224,"text":"現在狀況也是說CPTPP每次換一個輪值的主席國的時候呢我們都會覺得我們有突破的機會那都有機會讓這個CPTPP的部長會議推動成立剛剛您說的台灣的入會小組可是呢如果沒有成立成功的話那就又變成是好那這個有現實上面的考量的壓力等等的那今年我們預計的進展是什麼"},{"start":9466.744,"end":9489.472,"text":"那今年的主席國是輪到了這個越南嘛那我們跟越南有相當密切的這個商貿的關係啦我們希望在這個基礎上面那麼能夠雙方有好的一個對話你們不能每年都這樣講因為你們每年都告訴我們說我們今年跟澳洲也很好我們去年跟澳洲也很好我們今年跟越南也很好可是最後一整年下來是徒勞無功的那當然就會有這個"},{"start":9492.073,"end":9513.263,"text":"這個經貿這邊辦公室的人他們覺得就好像是很無所作為等等但是他的說法我尊重他的評論但我的意思是說今年是越南好來輪值所以可不可以給我一個很具體的目標我們今年大概要做什麼方向是什麼時程是什麼預計能夠達到什麼樣的一個目標把這個部分我們簡要的做一個說明好嗎"},{"start":9513.663,"end":9542.072,"text":"好 很快的說明就是說我們現在還是一樣跟一樣延續去年我們希望採取一個陸會申請的新的方式那去年是我們第一次提出來對 但你第一次提出來的時候你去年有跟越南就是因為越南它還是這個會員股嘛你們有跟越南討論過嗎就在它還不是輪值主席國的時候所有的對外管束我們都有對 那我的意思是說你去年雖然它不是輪值主席國但你有跟他們交換過這樣的意見的時候對方對於這件事情的支持程度是如何的"},{"start":9542.312,"end":9565.785,"text":"我想他們都是在重申奧克蘭三原則包括有良好的紀錄那今年你繼續講今年今年的話我們就是在這個推動上面我們希望這個入會的現在就是說在沒有人反對而不是說已經大家都同意沒有人反對的情況下對於這些入會申請國是不是就能夠開始成立一個入會工作小組這不是已經入會了"},{"start":9567.426,"end":9594.239,"text":"這個我就在你剛剛講過了因為我們時間很有限那你可不可以告訴我說這個爭取那大概會在什麼時候有眉目或是確認說今年可能沒機會我不能說今年沒有機會啦我說時程點因為你總是會有節點吧做任何事情是會有節點啊所以你不能聽到你說年底召開年底之前的時候我們就會全力以赴那麼對於越南對於其他的國家我們進行遊說"},{"start":9595.6,"end":9620.299,"text":"那尤其對新加入的這些國家,包括英國,包括加拿大加拿大不是最近加入,但是說這些國家有我的國家,我們會盡力盡力我最少是說,這個入會過程的這個方法是不是能夠大家同意就是在沒有會員國明確反應,反對,而且提出反對的理由的時候那麼以他們都說要再繼續"},{"start":9621.34,"end":9637.175,"text":"擴張CPTPP爭取更多的會員國在這個前提之下至少能夠讓我們成立陸會工作小組甚至我都同意我也很支持但因為從去年11月說有跟一個國家討論到現在那其實是一樣的"},{"start":9637.836,"end":9656.845,"text":"那所以我想要問一下就是說你們大概在今年度因為現在也已經四月了快要到下半年了你們有什麼時候要進入到跟第二個國家進到實質的討論我很實際我這個人很現實主義的很實際跟你討論就第二個就好了什麼時候可以進到跟第二個國家進行到實質的磋商啊"},{"start":9657.185,"end":9681.972,"text":"那我再跟委員報告說我們全力以赴啦但是我們希望有像您所說的第二個國家有一個比較正式的那你總是你要有目標跟方向跟大概知道說我希望爭取哪一個做第二個實質的國家的談判呢如果你都說大海撈針的那到年底了我要問你一樣的明年我要問你一樣的那這不就永遠遙遙無期了嗎好不好明年一定有不一樣的做但是說就今年在爭取新的國家來支持我們喔那麼我們覺得當然說"},{"start":9684.313,"end":9698.197,"text":"也就是這幾個國家我們現在不好就是說在區變但我們就所有的門我們都會敲那請你們繼續努力謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝徐教興委員次長請回下一位請馬文君召回諮詢好謝謝主席麻煩請外交部次長以及經濟部莊主密謝謝陳次長莊主密有請"},{"start":9721.284,"end":9731.052,"text":"市長好主秘好今天我們整個上午下來有很多委員關切的我們今天特別要訂定這個議程很重要的其實他對我們已經造成明顯的影響而且這個戰爭其實發生在距離我們很遠的地方可是他對我們造成的衝擊也非常的大所以今天包括你們交的報告非常遲的狀況才拿出來還包括剛剛不管"},{"start":9747.606,"end":9768.478,"text":"朝野的委員都認為我們的報告裡面的內容其實非常的簡單而且沒有針對我們發生的問題去做回應或者去做規劃簡單來說尤其剛剛也有委員去關切的他說在野黨不支持補助台電這個部分不要掐頭去尾然後只挑一部分講"},{"start":9769.779,"end":9797.911,"text":"在野黨不是不贊成政府去補助台電而是錯誤的政策造成台電嚴重的虧損而且影響人民的利益這是不能被接受的當你還沒有修正這個部分的時候在野黨沒有理由無條件的去支持這樣子的一個補助因為過去已經補助好幾千億了你接下來的破口還非常的多如果像這樣子持續下去因為我們可以看得到有很多的能源的"},{"start":9799.232,"end":9804.835,"text":"建制其實就不是能夠符合我們國家整體發展的不管你是太陽光電也好你是風力發電也好或者其他的發電尤其像這一次我們面臨到這麼大的衝擊很重要的一個是我們現在的執政黨他把天然氣的佔比他的發電佔比拉高到幾乎50%這樣的一個配比這是我們自己沒有生產的這樣子的一個來源"},{"start":9827.728,"end":9844.458,"text":"所以我們拉那麼高的時候現在就面臨這樣的危險了現在才戰事才發生幾天而已四十幾天你剛剛提到光是一個中友就已經補助一百多億了如果戰爭持續下去怎麼辦我們還漲可以多久我們動漲可以多久"},{"start":9848.021,"end":9871.057,"text":"謝謝委員提醒我想那個國家能源政策其實主要就是要去促進能源多元化來提高能源韌性多元化也要你的能力所及或者對我們比較有利的條件啊因為你現在又走回頭路了現在又要發展核電了這個真的嚴重的刺打嘴巴我們先姑且不談這一塊我現在要講的是當發生現在的戰爭到目前為止因為那個"},{"start":9874.96,"end":9897.84,"text":"看不到你們所有相關的規劃包括外交部包括經濟部國發會今天也到我們希望在這一個部分我們要怎麼樣去掌握雖然你說他還在改變當中我們就是知道他還在改變連巴基斯坦他們安排的這樣子的一個和談其實都已經破局了所以我們不能期待說他到底會什麼時候結束我們不知道剛剛聽你們"},{"start":9899.722,"end":9903.565,"text":"的口氣是很樂觀可是我們不這麼認為因為川普總統他在競選的時候他的口號說他當選然後上任以後24小時之內就要結束二無戰爭現在過了多久他沒有辦法結束所以已經不是第一強國包括美國能夠去左右這一局了還包括美國這一次對於整體的美伊戰爭"},{"start":9924.54,"end":9939.912,"text":"像這樣子他們認為可以像委內瑞拉一樣可能可以速戰速決斬首以後可以馬上就獲取勝利然後得到他們想要的可是顯然也不是而且造成全世界的衝擊這麼大我們要的是你經濟部必須要做一個通盤的規劃它不是能源而已能源牽動所有的物價上漲牽動我們所有整體經濟的發展所以如果到現在目前為止你們"},{"start":9951.201,"end":9958.869,"text":"你們規劃你們推測因為經濟部跟外交部是聯動的嘛你們都有接受很多的國際的資訊你們是樂觀的看待戰事會很快的結束嗎"},{"start":9963.474,"end":9992.254,"text":"包委員其實針對那個戰爭不確定性其實經濟部非常小心謹慎我們現在主要就是要確保我們的量是充足的所以剛剛也特別報告我們到6月底多久算充足因為你們說到6月底是準備好了嘛如果他的戰爭持續延續呢因為就川普總統他自己的判斷至少可能到11月可能將油價其實都還是會攀升的那像這樣子你們怎麼因應我們在報告裡面看不到"},{"start":9993.794,"end":10020.82,"text":"因為6月份我們已經確定我們的量所以我們現在已經開始展開7月份的佈局那因為這個其實如同剛剛講的它的不確定性很高我們也擔心說如果你佈局得太遠到時候你可能採購太多那個那個單價偏高的一個優元所以這個我們也是根據其他我想其他國家有命令到同樣狀況所以我們是小心謹慎每天每週的去往後推演我們未來可能的一個情境然後做最好的一個準備"},{"start":10021.5,"end":10038.435,"text":"因為你看起來的準備我們不曉得因為你現在的來源比如說像天然氣像石油你們當然有一些其他的替代的來源果可是它如果持續增加因為所有的它都上漲了甚至高達4成以上雖然你現在用動漲或緩漲的手段在壓制可是它在市場國際市場上它已經漲了4成那像這樣子你以後如果要從別的國家去跟人家買"},{"start":10048.704,"end":10051.786,"text":"就像你現在有一些物資如果缺了為什麼人家會搶很多在搶物資的時候他的那個就水漲船高我們現在擔心的是這些啊當你七月八月九月十月甚至到明年的時候你要跟其他國家採購你會面臨更高的價格這個部分你們都做了妥善的因應了嗎"},{"start":10069.379,"end":10077.023,"text":"謝偉提醒這塊都在我們掌握之內因為我們要注意到不適宜的交易狀況如果你們有掌握那表示你們有規劃那這具體的規劃在會後我們希望在一個禮拜之內把這個相關的規劃提供給我們委員會來做參考"},{"start":10084.147,"end":10087.949,"text":"是 可是剛剛委員報因為這個規劃都是動態來調整的所以我們會根據委員指定的日期我們提供最新的狀況不過這個狀況因為它可能瞬息萬變所以跟委員報是所以指定的日期沒有關係我們現在就是說因為你有短中長期像俄羅戰爭一打打了好幾年"},{"start":10103.038,"end":10107.96,"text":"到四年了你都還停不下來那它我們如果萬一面臨到這個封鎖它拉長時間對我們會什麼樣的影響那你對其他國家採購的時候會面臨什麼樣的影響包括我們的航運還有包括我們的海運包括我們所有的運輸其實在在都會影響這些對我們經濟整體的衝擊我們要的是具體的規劃跟你在能源上面如果產生這樣的空隙的時候你們怎麼做我們要的是這樣子的一個規劃報告"},{"start":10132.887,"end":10150.86,"text":"我們就提供給委員目前我們最新穩定能源供應的一個方案好那就這些部分我們希望可以儘速提供因為經濟部因為剛剛我們先請教一下那個外交部市長剛剛有委員提到這一次在野黨"},{"start":10152.461,"end":10154.984,"text":"所以國民黨的主席這一次的正席會剛剛你有提到說在野黨應該不要去製造像有一些在政治上或者國際其他國家對我們有產生誤解你所謂的誤解是什麼"},{"start":10170.202,"end":10185.65,"text":"沒有我是說最重要的東西這個事實就是說中華民國台灣跟中華人民共和國互不隸屬這個事實我希望這個在政協會的時候有誤導什麼嗎沒有我是說能夠再重申能夠再表達清楚那麼我們都知道"},{"start":10187.051,"end":10194.678,"text":"做什麼政府最有條件讓全世界知道我們的立場這一次的政協會他很重要的是在野黨去突破現在兩岸可能在區域緊張態勢這麼嚴重然後這麼惡化的情況之下他走出一條路現在有很多他們甚至在兩岸的"},{"start":10208.229,"end":10210.392,"text":"包括經濟部也在這裡最沒有條件去講這些什麼在經濟上面很多的關稅美國這一次他就是因為他的關稅還有他的軍事行動受到盟國有一些質疑"},{"start":10224.711,"end":10242.832,"text":"所以他沒有辦法獲得所有全面的支持有些他都是有條件的支持可是在軍事上面大家都避免戰事的擴張所以很多其實都是避免的就這個部分我們也要很具體的去讓大家很清楚所以外交部的立場不要再去當"},{"start":10244.033,"end":10257.724,"text":"那個像陸委會的那種角色外交部你的視野你的角色看的是國際今天我們在CPTPP我們在很多新南向新南向我們花了那麼多錢到現在我們看不出任何的成果美國現在對我們要求這才叫貴"},{"start":10261.267,"end":10279.193,"text":"我們所有的包括我們的豬牛還甚至進了犬學還有很多我們的自己的規則通通要依照人家的標準去依循這才叫貴我們把所有最重要的關鍵的一個能量"},{"start":10280.373,"end":10282.494,"text":"把他送出國然後還要把整個產業鏈、供應鏈全部挪出去以後我們還要花五千億美元這樣高額的這個金錢雖然現在他們已經被判違法我剛剛看到新聞好像川普總統也答應要退還"},{"start":10297.984,"end":10302.87,"text":"要退還這樣子的那之前的關稅稍微看了一下所以就這個部分當我們什麼都配合的情況之下你們完全沒有理由去指責在野黨而且說三道四因為他們拿到的是現在執政黨做不到的"},{"start":10315.666,"end":10320.888,"text":"我們現在的人民苦哈哈 所有過去很多的店家關的關 倒的倒 很多的經濟現在變得很蕭條我們要的是政府能夠開出一條路 不管你是哪一條路我們也支持CPTPP啊 我們也支持新南向啊 我們也支持你跟美國談最好的關稅的配合啊"},{"start":10337.575,"end":10343.158,"text":"可是我們不是我們付出了那麼多還包括國防的預算都被框進經濟的談判裡面是非常離譜的這才叫貴所以如果我們有肩膀如果我們要維持我們的風骨維持我們一個主權國家的一個"},{"start":10355.578,"end":10368.834,"text":"最好的一個表達就是在任何時候我們都必須要很大聲的去捍衛我們國家的利益還有人民的利益這個才是我們要做的所以我們希望外交部或者甚至像經濟部如果相關的影響要比較具體的讓我們知道外交部不要把自己的立場做小了"},{"start":10374.321,"end":10379.804,"text":"外交部其實面對的是全世界的各國不是只有邦交國我們現在所有包括澳洲總理因為這一次的美伊戰爭他跑了很多的國家他去拜訪日本、新加坡、汶萊、馬來西亞他要求大家一起跟他合作唯獨沒有找過台灣"},{"start":10393.712,"end":10401.997,"text":"我們從這一次的戰爭我們可以看到其實台灣是被孤立的如果繼續這樣下去這個是我們比較擔憂的所以我們希望外交部要拿出你們的國際視野怎麼樣在務實面上面去開拓我們自己的道路包括兩岸的關係兩岸的關係對我們來說非常重要連歐洲現在所有領導人你們應該有掌握訊息啊有哪些國家去見習近平你們應該非常清楚啊"},{"start":10422.188,"end":10426.99,"text":"包括歐洲國家為什麼以前跟美國這麼友好他們現在為什麼紛紛跑去包括美國總統川普他都一直要見習近平為什麼我們不可以為什麼我們做不到為什麼我們不要他如果對我們好對我們的和平"},{"start":10438.996,"end":10441.938,"text":"是有幫助的為什麼我們要捨棄這一條路所以這一條今天我們的報告其實我們並不是很滿意我們所有相關單位所提出的內容那我們也希望在後面應該補充的迅速補充資料好不好是好 謝謝好 謝謝馬文君召委 次長主任請為"},{"start":10472.663,"end":10475.267,"text":"接下來請劉許廷委員上台質詢謝謝主席 則外交部陳次長有請有請陳次長"},{"start":10489.657,"end":10504.235,"text":"市長午安今天早上剛好開始開會的時候本席也在馬昭偉詢問有關於報告這次比較晚交這件事情的時候我聽到你在台下有講你說因為局勢變化瞬息萬變"},{"start":10505.456,"end":10522.772,"text":"因為瞬息萬變所以要更新最新的資訊所以稍微晚了一點交不過我看你這個內容報告好像沒有更新到最新的程序你是不是要清楚說明一下因為我們今天討論的當然就是這個中東的戰況對於區域的這個政經情勢的一些影響嘛"},{"start":10523.473,"end":10539.715,"text":"那你的報告裡面寫了很多啊這包含當然從衝突的開始一路寫到和談等等但是好像就到那裡為止不過大家都很清楚嘛這個現在荷姆斯海峽最新的狀況是美國宣布要封鎖嘛可是我看你在整本報告裡面都隻字未提啊"},{"start":10540.416,"end":10555.835,"text":"如果照你台下所講的你說我為了要更新到最新的情況所以我要晚一點交可是你的報告裡沒有寫到最新的情況我是覺得這樣有點奇怪啦沒關係我給你補充說明的機會你就在這裡跟大家報告一下最新的情勢是什麼然後這樣子的一個情勢對於這個總體的內容跟影響請檢要報告請回答"},{"start":10560.641,"end":10575.04,"text":"就核母制海峽情勢因為這個事關我們的能源安全跟其他的相關的整個地緣政治的一個狀況那麼現在新的狀況說其實美國宣布所謂的封鎖這個核母制海峽其實這是一個比較比較籠統的一個說法"},{"start":10577.703,"end":10594.338,"text":"根據美國中央軍區的一個說法其實是對於伊朗的延案進行的登靈檢查的相關的一個做法那麼現在即使是在這樣一個宣布之後那我們根據這個相關的顯示仍然是有少數的船隻有進出"},{"start":10594.778,"end":10622.994,"text":"那大概現在新的狀況是這個樣子所以是說你可以說是說開始兩邊都有一些動作但是大家都有體會到這個赫姆斯海峽對於全世界全球經濟的重要性那麼也看到是說其實美國也宣布那麼這兩天還會繼續的再有第二輪的這個和談那我們是這個密切的觀察關注這個相關的一個發展那隨時更新的這個情緒像跟委員報告像上次這個第一輪的談判在談呢"},{"start":10624.334,"end":10643.792,"text":"十幾個小時、二十個小時之後就宣布破裂這都是發生在週末的時候它一直在變化你把剛剛這些都寫進報告裡面之前你講的話還對得上好沒關係我就提醒你而已那未來的情勢判斷我們外交部現在的掌握呢你剛剛講第一輪談判很快的破裂了"},{"start":10644.232,"end":10666.589,"text":"但你目前觀察到的情勢好像各方雖然嘴巴上都講得很大聲但實務上來講動作上看起來有稍微其實還是有收斂有留點空間所以你對他們第二輪的和談部長你的判斷或者是我們外交部總體對於情勢的掌握你的預判是什麼柯老稍微只是說這個國際最重要的一個戰略思考加速這個所謂的戰爭都是一個政治的延伸"},{"start":10667.069,"end":10681.397,"text":"他還是要達到他的一個政治的目的不然就這個事情上面來說大家都有一個比較務實的一個地方那麼所以在這個務實的基點上面雖然是說大家會說一些比較因為戰爭他有一個需要他一定會有一些這個比較"},{"start":10682.197,"end":10705.92,"text":"時期考量 宣傳考量 大家都知道這我們稱之為所謂的戰爭的迷霧嘛那麼都有一些這種地方但是就實際來說實際的考量還是回到這個上面來那麼大家都還是希望能夠維持這個赫姆斯海峽那個對全球經濟的重要性但現在有一些說是不是所有的國家都願意參與啦大家的想法是什麼樣"},{"start":10706.5,"end":10724.725,"text":"所以我們都在努力的觀察但是對台灣來說現在最重要的一個工作的重點第一個還是一樣這個保護我們僑民的一個利益人身安全與利益第二個是在於確保我們的能源公願無虞好那麼這是一個經濟部的現在也都做我們在跨部會能源穩定待會我問經濟部我問國發會"},{"start":10726.725,"end":10753.539,"text":"我再額外問一個問題我們前面也有委員有講說在昨天的質詢的時候有提到我們應該要主動爭取我們也要去協助掃雷啊那這件事情已經形成中華民國的官方立場了嗎沒有欸那就是說這是一個現在也沒有人表達需要我們去做這樣的一個事情那我覺得這是一個很有趣的這個在戰略上面大的戰略上面一個提法你也覺得很有創意就對了"},{"start":10755.012,"end":10780.218,"text":"這有各種各樣的刑法很有創意但是我們在外交上面都還是比較謹慎小心比較這個嚴謹來看待這樣的一個各種各樣謹慎小心嚴謹才是對的是我們都是外交相關訓練出身都知道外交存在的用意就是避免衝突不要不希望這些東西我們希望都能夠用透過談的方式而不是透過戰的方式來解決好希望這個談判能夠順利好陳市長請回請辛苦了"},{"start":10780.718,"end":10786.162,"text":"來 這個經濟部跟國發會麻煩一下經濟部 國發會 謝謝你好 這一段時間CNN有相關的報導就是說看著赫姆斯海峽的這樣子的一個狀況對於台灣的啟示這寫的是蠻入骨蠻危險的也就是說類似的封鎖行動不管它的強度是怎麼樣一旦發生了很有可能對於我們的這個戰備能源造成立即性的衝擊"},{"start":10808.38,"end":10824.722,"text":"也就是說它裡面的說法是天然氣的儲量11天11天之後就會開始出現電力短缺等等它會衝擊我們的這個半導體的生產啊甚至是影響民生基礎用電等等造成很嚴重的衝擊經濟部對於這樣子的一個報導有什麼樣要回應的嗎國防衛生經濟部都可以回應 來"},{"start":10826.434,"end":10843.152,"text":"我想針對能源安全部分都一直是在能源政策努力的一個目標所以我們透過能源多元化我想不只是能源種類還包含來源的多元化所以這次的一個經驗其實讓我們其實應該會更加速我們在來源多元化的一個佈局來提高整個能源的一個韌性"},{"start":10844.215,"end":10857.432,"text":"之前來源多元化第一次討論的時候其實是在烏鴉戰爭爆發因為過去就是很集中然後你做了一個分散化但你可能運氣不太好啦一分散之後我增加了來自中東的來源然後中東就出事了當然分散風險是沒有錯的好那我順著這個話題往下走"},{"start":10860.215,"end":10885.701,"text":"這一次啊 就因為我們現在也跟中東進口了很多的原油嘛當然是在你分散風險的這樣一個大戰略之下但現在荷姆治海峽出事啦那剛剛情勢 我剛剛跟外交部有討論過嘛你也知道最新的狀況是美國宣布封鎖但是有部分的船隻可以通過那請問具體來講 現在的情勢下面這個台海 台灣啦 這個是否有這個原油等等相關原料的供應商因為現在的形勢受到影響經濟部有沒有掌握 或國防部有沒有掌握"},{"start":10886.927,"end":10914.047,"text":"目前其實我們國內的原油進口主要來自於中油跟台塑那中油部分我想我們就一直在解決就是中油那個本來打算從中東進口會經過橫浦之海峽的一個替代方案所以剛剛如同報告我們增加非中東地區包含像美國澳洲的一個進口或甚至是我們不要走橫浦之海峽走類似像阿曼灣等等其他進口的一個管道來解決有關可能的一個之前的一個缺口問題"},{"start":10915,"end":10934.967,"text":"所以到底有影響沒有?我問你是現在的情勢嗎?目前我們掌握到6月底 目前我們掌握到6月底 目前我們掌握到6月底目前我們掌握到6月底目前我們掌握到6月底目前我們掌握到6月底目前我們掌握到6月底目前我們掌握到6月底目前我們掌握到6月底目前我們掌握到6月底目前我們掌握到6月底目前我們掌握到6月底目前我們掌握到6月底目前我們掌握到6月底目前我們掌握到6月底目前我們掌握到6月底目前我們掌握到6月底目前我們掌握到6月底目前我們掌握到6月底目前我們掌握到6月底"},{"start":10935.707,"end":10964.266,"text":"剛剛有提到我們原油進口最大的兩家一家叫中油一家叫台塑當然中油是國營公司台塑是民營公司現在我們因應原物料的一個短缺的狀況當然我們為了要平易物價所以政府第一時間針對中油我用動漲的方式當然我國營企業我不管是財政作帳或者是政策補貼是很方便的我想問一下對於民營企業的影響比如說台塑在這裡面的角色是什麼他因應這樣的事情他會不會受到一定的衝擊"},{"start":10965.846,"end":10987.772,"text":"這個他有沒有拿到比如說相關的一些補貼或者是補償這樣的一個狀況沒關係你們誰要講都可以因為我想是不是屬於經濟部的範疇經濟部的範疇好吧那就經濟部多擔待吧沒關係有人可以回答就好跟我們報告其實台塑在目前國內的油品市場其實只佔國內內需的兩成左右所以他的一個供給部分其實國內價格對他影響並不太大他主要是以出口為主"},{"start":10988.192,"end":11015.259,"text":"那出口因為中東戰爭所以整個國際的價格其實變好對它來講其實是有它的一個營收的一個獲利的一個情況不過因為我們也希望它畢竟是國內的一個企業所以至少它國內的部分還要先滿足內需為主然後有餘額的話再出口所以目前是我們是這樣子來跟台塑來做討論這本期有觀察到這件事或者是我擔心這件事的原因就是因為中東跟台塑當然做一樣的事情但是體質上是不一樣的"},{"start":11015.879,"end":11030.039,"text":"如果我們在政策上面的一些協助或者是資源只側重在這邊的話會變成民營企業的狀況是我當然在市場競爭的過程或者什麼我當然是要對標這個也要配合政府的政策嘛所以我的價格當然是不能拉高的可是我的成本還是拉高的那從這個"},{"start":11031.201,"end":11045.699,"text":"正常市場將本求利的過程來看他很有可能就是那我可能因為這樣的狀況我生產越多但我必須要降價這個來賣可能生產越多賣越多他有沒有可能會因為這樣我降低生產的量能我減產或者是暫時不處理有沒有可能會有這樣的一些狀況"},{"start":11047.083,"end":11069.24,"text":"因為我目前掌握他的狀況其實因為他之前有存量再加上其實那個台塑他目前進口的狀況的影響並沒有那麼大當然還是有影響不過他還是有其他替代方案可是替代方案對他的整體的進口成本影響並沒有那麼大所以目前他我想在穩定國內的那個油價狀況之下他衝擊應該是還有因為如同剛剛講他在國內的內需市場的占比並不高"},{"start":11072.642,"end":11093.494,"text":"好沒關係 這相信 因為今天時間到了 大家都很趕 還有委員在等待這相關的 就是你在油價補貼的政策上面 針對不同的性質你要如何來做一個平衡 我希望你會提供一個比較完整的書面報告給我因為我擔心的是 如果因為這樣的成本 然後又要配合動產的政策然後它導致我用減產的方式 我要來平息損失或者是產線調動等等 然後它間接影響塑膠袋等等我想這對於國內都不是一件好事 這跨國裡面 這針對"},{"start":11098.797,"end":11124.233,"text":"特殊狀況的補貼政策它其實是不分國營跟民營的我覺得這部分應該要做一下通盤的思考但沒關係我覺得這件事情要詳細討論嘛所以你把相關的一些數據資料跟溝通的狀況做一下整理跟本席的辦公室做一下對話這樣可以嗎好這有勞經濟部好不好是國發會雖然沒有回答到但沒關係啦這個我想也是重大政策不管是情勢的變遷也好或者是一些政策的配套的規劃我們都希望可以更加周延希望可以平安的度過這個難關謝謝謝委員好謝謝"},{"start":11129.298,"end":11147.074,"text":"接下來請楊瓊英委員上台質詢謝謝主席 本席首先邀請外交部請陳次長"},{"start":11155.314,"end":11174.029,"text":"我想針對於美伊衝突發生在中東我相信影響不是只有中東那麼這個戰爭引發了三件事情美國戰略的資源是否會從印太來轉移尤其是第二項全球能源的這個問題"},{"start":11175.35,"end":11203.396,"text":"以及航運成本是不是會外溢到台灣那中國大陸是不是會藉此機會在亞太來擴張那政府本身認為必須將這場戰爭呢是當成我國面臨的一個風險來做處理所以外交部在美國長期強調印太優先但是他現在大量的軍力呢飛彈庫存以及航母戰力呢被"},{"start":11204.136,"end":11231.805,"text":"拉到中東去所以外媒指示說美軍部分長程飛彈跟防空的攔截系統庫存都已受到壓力甚至延後對盟邦的交付所以要請教在美國有兩條線的壓力的時候也就是中東跟印太對於我們台灣的影響到底是如何 請做說明"},{"start":11232.225,"end":11251.482,"text":"我想現在這個大的一個情勢影響當然是非常的大那麼剛才委員也正確的提到有關於這個整個亞太的這個印太的情勢那包括這一個相關的這個軍事資源的一個調動那的確是我們非常的關心的一個狀況我們現在跟這個在這個印太地區的這個國家"},{"start":11252.603,"end":11278.977,"text":"那麼共同的跟美國表示相關的一個關切喔那麼對於如何能夠確保在整個中東情勢因為中東這個狀況來講就是說它其實赫姆斯海峽的這個情勢影響到全球的經濟那剛才這個好幾位委員的質詢上面還有這個經濟部的回答沒有很清楚就因為大家看到這個必須是要以風險來做處理那請教外交部你的動作你的方向是什麼"},{"start":11279.737,"end":11306.197,"text":"當然是我們現在第一我們當然是進行我們說的外管透過各種的資源各種的管道能夠收集相關的情資做我們相關的研判包括經濟部包括行政院的研判的基準第二個是說我們透過外交的作為那麼也跟這個鄰近的國家共同表示我們在這個情況之下那麼也請注意到這個印太安全跟印太的整個軍事局"},{"start":11306.237,"end":11326.425,"text":"有沒有跟日本協調區域穩定的這個立場我們當然是跟日本隨時他的對話溝通的管道都隨時的暢通啦那在事情上面我們也了解這個一個情勢那我想這個現在的一個情勢的一個發展對大家來說都是一個比較需要高度關注的狀況必須密切去"},{"start":11327.285,"end":11345.955,"text":"了解 應對那所以因此在現在伊朗的這個軍事跟經濟壓力那赫姆茲海峽對於整個能源是全球都非常的非常的關注尤其台灣我們目前有大概三成左右是從這個方向來的"},{"start":11346.935,"end":11362.26,"text":"那所以在經濟部的立場除了協調中油之外那更要多元多項的多線的去將我們的能源能夠穩定但是所有的產業民生壓力非常的大"},{"start":11362.88,"end":11373.073,"text":"因為經濟部告訴我們如果以現在我們在4月份還尚可5月份我們必須要啟動特別採購那這個特別採購除了以往我們有這個"},{"start":11377.779,"end":11396.905,"text":"契約的就照著長約走但是如果增加的部分是必須要以現況的價格那大家聽到這一句話呢就非常的緊張因為它的成本會增加而且它的通膨在整個民生上面會非常的緊張就陳如最近"},{"start":11397.685,"end":11422.92,"text":"我們的索卡路加就開始全面PVC等不斷地在上漲一粒有可能三四四四這個價格的波動那在這個整個影響的一個程度上面我們又看到美國官員的說法美軍已經在波斯灣周圍部署15艘的軍艦那換句話說它形成對伊朗港口的一個海上封鎖網"},{"start":11424.501,"end":11439.874,"text":"它可以登建上去去檢查那在這樣的一個情況之下因為赫姆森海峽對於我們能源的來源也是非常重要的一個管道那全球能源的供應在吃緊的情況之下我相信亞洲是首當其衝"},{"start":11443.717,"end":11457.45,"text":"所以外交部針對於這樣子的一個大家都認為能源等於是國安事件的一個處理那在這個油氣供應的風險評估你們是否跟能源輸出國"},{"start":11459.153,"end":11484.238,"text":"有沒有特別的這個緊急應對也就是緊急外交的一個溝通機制請教說明現在就是說其實我們經濟部採購的方向那當然經濟部還是最好來回答就我剛才的了解是說其實包括澳洲美國這個加拿大等等這些重要的這個油氣的這個供應國那麼他們在那個國際現貨市場上面採購當然壓力成本壓力都非常高"},{"start":11488.44,"end":11496.677,"text":"外交部的做法是說我們希望在這個上面能夠跟主要的這些國家尤其是過去的時候我們的能源從西方來"},{"start":11498.168,"end":11521.437,"text":"那現在因為那個橫浦之海峽發生了這樣的一個危機必須要從東邊的來調度所以我們希望外交的這個努力能夠配合這個東西我們跟澳洲其實說實在有一個還不錯的關係跟美國跟加拿大都有很好的關係我們在這個架構上面能夠協助經濟部能夠調度新的澳運你講到這個重點喔 次長經濟部多元面向"},{"start":11522.694,"end":11551.193,"text":"的線索去努力剛剛本席也說了就價格方面甚至我們要以更高的價格以現貨的情況價格來採購經濟部他這麼做但是國家必須是合作尤其是外交部本席剛剛請教就是說外交部你已經也認識到這個問題的一個嚴重性那你外交部所採取的是什麼樣的方向你是不是有緊急外交的溝通機制"},{"start":11553.855,"end":11581.093,"text":"請說明當然尤其是美國現在是全世界最重要的一個產油國嘛氣也是一樣那麼他們美國過去的時候一向鼓勵我們跟美國來採購那現在美國的整個供應來說的話當然價格都會比較高但是供應來說的話都還可以所以我們在這個事情上面都強化我們跟台美雙方的一個互動就能源韌性的議題上面的一個合作"},{"start":11581.673,"end":11610.282,"text":"那我們做了各種的這個溝通能夠協助市場行為還是這樣經濟部還是必須要在現貨市場上面調貨所以經濟部告訴我們一句話他說因為我們的人員不錯所以也有國家願意要特別提供給我們那如果照剛剛市長所說的這個方向大家都知道是哪一個國家但是一個重點台美的關係我們一定要把握好"},{"start":11610.922,"end":11638.784,"text":"因為產業所面臨的是數字問題如果你的成本成為經濟部告訴我們的如果額外採購當然會以現貨的價格更高的價格這是經濟部告訴我們的也是產業所憂心的我希望政府各部門必須要去協助讓我們的產業可以安穩過關這也就是外交部跟經濟部甚至國防會這邊要怎麼樣去合作這是政府的責任"},{"start":11640.044,"end":11666.711,"text":"接下來我最後請問一個問題總統在22號要訪問史瓦帝尼這個總統也跟我們很好也是非洲唯一一個我們的邦交國這個國王甚至在總統就職的時候他也帶隊來我們非常的謝謝他也是非洲僅有的邦交國這個國王率團來祝賀所以本席要請教這一次"},{"start":11667.691,"end":11696.084,"text":"你們似乎是以直飛的方式 是不是那為什麼不會過境呢因為在我們整個過境外交也是一個非常重要的重頭戲請說明 會不會有過境外交我覺得現在的我覺得剛才也有回答另外的委員的一個質詢我們希望任務能夠單純然後也是展現我們的誠意那也能夠以這個便利舒適為最重要的一個考量"},{"start":11697.364,"end":11721.918,"text":"任務單純 舒適 簡單化但是我們以往也就是國際外交向來是我們非常重要的重頭戲啊是 這我們了解那這一次轉一個彎說是簡單 單純那這個讓國人好像還有很多的問號所以本下要請教是不是有持續跟美方來安排洽談總統訪美或者是國際美國"},{"start":11725.8,"end":11751.448,"text":"我們所有的努力溝通都一直持續在進行不然跟委員報告一下因為這個飛往非洲比較少這個途徑美國那麼這過去的這個所謂的過境外交的一個突破主要是在於像美日好像剛才也有提到像在那個蘇院長去日本看球賽這個事情那我們這個部分我們就不多做的這個"},{"start":11751.988,"end":11778.245,"text":"所以你現在說此行 好 我們得到一個結論就是簡單 單純 誠意那所以請教 在今年會不會安排總統過境美國或者是訪美 請教我們所有的這個規劃都持續在進行那但是實際的是說最後的一個拍板決定以及對外宣布都是由總統府來做所以這也是一個選項是 所有的東西我們都持續在規劃之中好"},{"start":11782.125,"end":11784.947,"text":"謝謝謝謝楊瓊瑩委員謝謝接下來請洪玉祥委員不在請洪孟楷委員不在請林倩琦委員不在請鄭振淺委員不在請蔡易瑜委員不在請鍾嘉斌委員不在請蘇清泉委員不在"},{"start":11809.446,"end":11838.026,"text":"今天已登記質詢的委員除不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議有陳永康委員、洪育翔委員提出書面質詢請列入記錄並刊登公報委員書面及口頭質詢未及答覆的部分或要求補充資料者請相關機關兩週內已書面答覆委員有約定期限者重新鎖定本日會議到此結束 散會謝謝大家辛苦了 謝謝"},{"start":11839.918,"end":11840.139,"text":"謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"168575","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168575","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ec77822e2e6eae3ee9084cb6e8479bf354b0245b1feb432f584cb79d4e23178f8e03f26c378850b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林倩綺","委員發言時間":"11:38:53 - 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謝謝我們主席邱昭偉本席在這邊請我們這個國發會的 現在是藝術委還有我們運動部的黃次長謝謝"},{"start":19.632,"end":29.796,"text":"謝謝這個召委今天安排的這個題目所以本席長期也對運動的各項發展非常關注所以本席今天在這個經濟委員會想針對這個運動產業的一個百億基金的這個區域跟項目落地的問題來跟兩位做一個請教"},{"start":38.679,"end":52.71,"text":"所以本席今天要請教是運動產業的投資政策那特別是兩個我們的部會所協作的主題式的百億基金怎麼樣落實在水域運動跟花東地區那麼國發會透過這個百億基金來支持運動產業那麼也針對教練還有防護員等產業鏈在進行資金的挹注那另外呢運動部也依據我們這個運動發展條例規劃了10年100億的一個投資方案"},{"start":66.281,"end":87.616,"text":"那麼現在有一些政策基礎也有資金來源但是本席關注的是那個資金會投到哪裡那怎麼投這是還是怎麼能夠解決真正的結構的問題所以本席就兩方面來做一個請教第一個是水域運動那臺南四面環海那本席長期也關注水域運動那剛才在前面委員的一個詢答上我們也聽到次長說未來在全民的水域運動上"},{"start":91.278,"end":107.059,"text":"也會有更積極的作為所以本席在這邊非常的欣慰所以長期的一個推動也感謝部裡面這樣一個支持所以在台灣這樣一個四面環海的國家那我們終於在水域上那我希望未來也是可以在法規上再做一些"},{"start":108.04,"end":124.61,"text":"各部會跟緊密的一些連結來推動水域的一個解禁但是因為我們先前長期的都一些比較零省的推動那廠域教練防護跟租賃設備還有保險的機制尤其是保險都缺乏一些產業鏈"},{"start":125.931,"end":151.149,"text":"那麼如果以百億基金的角度來看呢那本席認為這個水域運動其實是非常適合成為一個大標的那也是非常特色的一個標的剛才次長這邊有提到這個當然在產業推動上目前已經有數量的當然有一些就是團體型的運動那但是呢台灣的這個水域的條件其實是可以成為世界在運動方面的一個很重要的特色所以"},{"start":152.43,"end":173.861,"text":"我們是不是有機會來支持區域型的水域運動中心然後投資水域安全教育跟水域運動教練的一個培訓體系而且來發展結合觀光的海洋運動產業鏈那本席請教運動部跟國發會目前是不是已經將水域運動納入相關的投資方案"},{"start":174.893,"end":201.622,"text":"這個部分是不是可以請部會這邊來做一個回應第一個就是說我們國發會的那個100億資金的話我們會尊重各部會的專業判斷以及他每一個部會裡面會有一個審查的機制那至於那謝謝那本席在這邊就呼籲因為水域長期有被忽略掉所以請國發會這邊在水域的一個運動上可以用比較支持的而且推動的一個概念來支持這樣一個基金的投入"},{"start":203.002,"end":227.227,"text":"對 因為未來國防會會推動一個投資整合平台啦那這個整合平台上面我們可以建議啦建議運動部在這個水域方面的話可以多多投資一些資金這樣子那謝謝 第二個部分本席要先針對我們知道運動部剛才我想在水域的部分都有做很本席這個私下也都做一些推動那一些專業的一個建議那也謝謝運動部在剛才我聽到次長"},{"start":230.167,"end":246.224,"text":"針對其他委員的一些回應應該也聽到了一些結果那麼第二部分是有關於花東地區那本席在總質詢其實有針對運動的部分跟院長做一些請教結果院長竟然很明確地來對本席表示"},{"start":246.684,"end":269.565,"text":"未來在運動場館培訓跟管理的這個部分有計畫性的想要往東部來發展那所以本席在這邊要談的是說那花東是不是已經成為優先投資的一個區域還是如同其他很多委員都關注的那是不是最終資源還是會因為既有的型態而留在這個所謂的比較人口密集的都會區"},{"start":270.646,"end":295.529,"text":"那本席這邊補充一下花東地區其實具備了很多條件那第一個是運動人才的基礎深厚那尤其是原住民族的選手的比例非常高但是常常都人才在花東可是常常都因為現狀的狀況流落到他鄉那第二個部分是自然環境也非常適合的水域運動跟戶外的運動"},{"start":297.15,"end":310.186,"text":"那也具備了發展運動觀光跟區域產業的一個潛力但是目前問題就如同剛剛本期講的人才在花東 資源在西部場地在地方 人才也在地方可是產業鏈卻沒有在地形成"},{"start":312.268,"end":319.917,"text":"那所以本席這邊請教白玉基金有沒有納入區域平衡作為政策目標第二個部分是是不是會設計專門對花東或偏鄉地區的投資機制確保資源能夠進入東部並且深耕發展最後"},{"start":327.125,"end":342.898,"text":"在部會的整 跨部會的整合上運動部國發會是不是已經跟交通部觀光單位還有地方政府建立一個合作的模式來結合觀光交通跟在地的一個產業而不是單一部會的一個各自推動可不可以很簡單的做一個回應 謝謝這個部分我們會會協調各部會然後然後做一個平台來討論這件事情"},{"start":351.946,"end":361.434,"text":"好的那謝謝那請後續我們就再更積極的我想到林委員辦公室再做比較具體的一些針對區域的一個資金的這個投入謝謝謝謝林前幾位"}]}},{"id":"168574","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168574","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ec77822e2e6eae31f34372e501b460561f404ecbec9cddcf584cb79d4e231784bf6fd8005bdee605ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"11:31:58 - 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宣傳考量 大家都知道這我們稱之為戰爭的迷霧 都有一些這種地方但實際的考量還是回到上面來 大家都還是希望能夠維持赫姆斯海峽對全球經濟的重要性但現在有一些是不是所有的國家都願意參與 大家的想法是什麼樣"},{"start":228.51,"end":246.751,"text":"所以我們都在努力的這個觀察,但是對台灣來說現在最重要的一個工作的重點大概第一個還是一樣,這個保護我們僑民的一個利益,人身安全與利益第二個是在於確保我們的能源公願無虞,那麼這是一個經濟部的一個,現在也都做,我們在跨部會的協調沒關係,能源穩定待會我問經濟部,我問國發會"},{"start":248.733,"end":275.601,"text":"我再額外問一個問題我們前面也有委員有講說是在昨天的質詢的時候有提到說我們應該要主動爭取我們也要去協助掃雷啊那這件事情已經形成中華民國的官方立場了嗎沒有欸那就是說這是一個現在也沒有人表達需要我們去做這樣的一個事情那我覺得這是一個很有趣的這個在戰略上面大的戰略上面一個提法你也覺得很有創意就對了"},{"start":277.029,"end":301.895,"text":"這有各種各樣的刑法很有創意但是我們在外交上面都還是比較謹慎小心比較這個嚴謹來看待這樣的一個對謹慎小心嚴謹才是對的是我們都是外交相關訓練出身都知道外交存在的用意就是避免衝突不要不希望這些東西我們希望都能夠用透過談的方式而不是透過戰的方式來解決好希望這個談判能夠順利好陳市長請回辛苦了來這個經濟部跟國發會麻煩一下好謝謝"},{"start":305.876,"end":308.259,"text":"這段時間CNN有相關的報導就是說看著赫姆斯海峽的這樣子的一個狀況對於台灣的啟示這寫的是蠻入骨蠻危險的也就是說類似的封鎖行動不管它的強度是怎麼樣一旦發生了很有可能對於我們的"},{"start":328.359,"end":346.71,"text":"這個戰備能源造成立即性的衝擊也就是說它裡面的說法是天然氣的儲量11天11天之後就會開始出現電力短缺等等它會衝擊我們的這個半導體的生產啊甚至是影響民生基礎用電等等造成很嚴重的衝擊經濟部對於這樣子的一個報導有什麼樣要回應的嗎國防衛生經濟部都可以回應 來"},{"start":348.45,"end":365.143,"text":"我想針對能源安全部分都一直是在能源政策努力的一個目標所以我們透過能源多元化我想不只是能源種類還包含來源的多元化所以這次的一個經驗其實讓我們其實應該會更加速我們在來源多元化的一個佈局來提高整個能源的一個韌性"},{"start":366.229,"end":382.538,"text":"之前來源多元化第一次討論的時候其實是在烏俄戰爭爆發因為過去就是很集中然後你做了一個分散化但你可能運氣不太好啦一分散之後我增加了來自中東的來源然後中東就出事了當然分散風險是沒有錯的好那我順著這個話題往下走這一次啊"},{"start":382.918,"end":407.714,"text":"就因為我們現在也跟中東進口了很多的原油嘛當然是在你分散風險這樣一個大戰略之下但現在荷姆茲海峽出事啦那剛剛情勢我剛剛跟外交部有討論過嘛你也知道最新的狀況是美國宣布封鎖但是有部分的船隻可以通過那請問具體來講現在的情勢下面這個台海 台灣啦這個是否有這個原油等等相關原料的供應商因為現在的形勢受到影響經濟部有沒有掌握或國防部有沒有掌握"},{"start":408.941,"end":436.064,"text":"目前其實我們國內的原油進口主要來自於中油跟台塑那中油部分我想我們就一直在解決就是中油那個本來打算從中東進口會經過橫浦之海峽的一個替代方案所以剛剛如同報告我們增加非中東地區包含像美國澳洲的一個進口或甚至是我們不要走橫浦之海峽走類似像阿曼灣等等其他進口的一個管道來解決有關可能的一個之前的一個缺口問題"},{"start":437.014,"end":454.28,"text":"所以到底有影響沒有?我問你是現在的情勢嗎?目前我們掌握到6月我去到封完換美國封這樣的狀況、情況之下你過不過來?目前有部分我想我們都已經掌握足夠一個TI-8那TI-7已經掌握到6月底的部分來源應該都沒有問題來源都沒有問題?是這國發會我問一下好了"},{"start":457.721,"end":486.256,"text":"剛剛有提到我們原油進口最大的兩家一家叫中油一家叫台塑當然中油是國營公司台塑是民營公司現在我們因應原物料的一個短缺的狀況當然我們為了要平抑物價所以政府第一時間針對中油我用動漲的方式當然我國營企業我不管是財政作戰或者是政策補貼是很方便的我想問一下對於民營企業的影響比如說台塑在這裡面的角色是什麼他因應這樣的事情他會不會受到一定的衝擊"},{"start":487.857,"end":498.335,"text":"這個他有沒有拿到比如說相關的一些補貼或者是補償這樣的一個狀況沒關係你們誰要講都可以因為我想是不是屬於經濟部的範疇經濟部的範疇好吧那就經濟部多擔待吧沒關係有人可以回答就好"},{"start":498.915,"end":528.164,"text":"跟我們報告其實台塑在目前國內的油品市場其實只佔國內內需的兩成左右所以它的一個供給部分其實國內價格對它影響並不太大它主要是以出口為主那出口因為這因為中東戰爭所以整個國際的價格其實變好對它來講其實是有它的一個營收的一個獲利的一個情況不過因為我們也希望它畢竟是國內的一個企業所以至少它國內的部分還要先滿足內需為主然後有餘額的話再出口"},{"start":528.564,"end":548.367,"text":"所以目前是我們是這樣子來跟台塑來做討論這本期有觀察到這件事或者是我擔心這件事的原因就是因為中油跟台塑當然做一樣的事情但是體質上是不一樣的如果我們在政策上面的一些協助或者是資源只側重在這邊的話會變成民營企業的狀況是我當然在市場競爭的過程或者什麼我當然是要對標這個也要配合政府的政策嘛"},{"start":548.807,"end":567.709,"text":"所以我的價格當然是不能拉高了可是我的成本還是拉高了那從這個正常市場將本求利的過程來看他很有可能就是那我可能因為這樣的狀況我生產越多但我必須要降價這個來賣可能生產越多賣越多他有沒有可能會因為這樣我降低生產的量能我減產或者是暫時不處理有沒有可能會有這樣的一些狀況"},{"start":569.079,"end":591.232,"text":"因為我目前掌握他的狀況其實因為他之前有存量再加上其實那個台塑他目前進口的狀況的影響並沒有那麼大當然還是有影響不過他還是有其他替代方案可是替代方案對他的整體的進口成本影響並沒有那麼大所以目前他我想在穩定國內的那個油價狀況之下他衝擊應該是因為如同剛剛講他在國內的內需市場的占比並不高"},{"start":594.656,"end":618.767,"text":"好沒關係這相信因為今天時間到了大家都很趕還有委員在等待這相關的就是你在油價補貼的政策上面針對不同的性質你要如何來做一個平衡我希望你會提供一個比較完整的書面報告給我因為我擔心的是如果因為這樣的成本然後又要配合動漲的政策然後他老是說我用減產的方式我要來平息損失或者是產線調動等等然後他間接影響塑膠袋等等我想這對於國內都不是一件好事"},{"start":619.327,"end":646.117,"text":"這跨國裡面這針對特殊狀況的補貼政策它其實是不分國營跟民營的我覺得這部分應該要做一下通盤的思考但沒關係我覺得這件事情要詳細討論嘛所以你把相關的一些數據資料跟溝通的狀況做一下整理跟本席的辦公室做一下對話這樣可以嗎好 這有勞經濟部好不好國發會雖然沒有回答到但沒關係啦這個我想也是重大政策不管是情勢的變遷也好或者是一些政策的配套的規劃我們都希望可以更加周延希望可以平安的度過這個難關 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168572","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168572","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ec77822e2e6eae31fc0f1f904a2443844e7435d00e85120f584cb79d4e23178e901f84a635eded85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"11:34:44 - 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確需要花一點時間"},{"start":83.92,"end":103.379,"text":"對啦 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too运动"},{"start":1453.129,"end":1469.766,"text":"爆发了许多失对生的事件所以立法院在2023年的7月呢也完成了最近一次的修正在第一章把违法专业伦理关系从防治准则提升入法"},{"start":1470.387,"end":1490.037,"text":"但是對於性侵害的界定仍然是綁定刑法防害性自主罪跟違反意願的模式並沒有向美國在教育法第九條相關法制中引入積極同意或其他的改革那來回應詮釋性侵的問題"},{"start":1491.238,"end":1516.357,"text":"又对于不同情节的案件呢也没有分流的设计以至于生对生较轻微的案件惩罚的色彩过重偏离了教育的原意那第二章第三章对学生学习环境跟资源保障还有性平教育的课程教材及教学等核心内容呢则是从来没有修法"},{"start":1517.437,"end":1544.787,"text":"例如近期我們看到一些學生生理假請假有大學教授發文指出好像看到帶血的衛生棉感覺很噁心或者是去凸顯了像我們現在生理假的一個保障不足或者是有大學性別所停招的問題也有像是高中的男校去挺麥當勞"},{"start":1546.067,"end":1548.169,"text":"覺得沒有女權真好這樣的一個爭議那或者是有許多學校他們在考題中也會出現性羞辱的字眼等等這些都是顯示了性別教育的課程的量"},{"start":1561.96,"end":1584.387,"text":"還有失陪還有領域整合的不足違反了第20條第一項情形如何改善就顯得更加迫切那到了第4章第5章呢周延信已徵完善可是案件暴增之下實務中姓平慧的承辦人負荷過重調查與教育的費用"},{"start":1584.847,"end":1607.868,"text":"左支右处都成为一个课题那承办人调查人员及性品委员的量能多元性专业性的不足跟缺乏考量被害人保护与照顾例如某大学的涉奸案等事件中也浮现出来了那再来是现行强制通报制度在实务上"},{"start":1608.368,"end":1634.697,"text":"造成了学生特别是儿少的部分隐私的泄露跟行政量能的负担这些也都有待考量与改善另外像社会发生多起的情感纠纷命案也凸显出跟踪骚扰防治法跟性别平等教育法在衔接上的缝隙现行校园对于情感纠纷的处理往往"},{"start":1635.717,"end":1653.273,"text":"至於事後的調查缺乏事前的風險評估跟有效的情感教育的介入此外第一線人員對跟騷行為的法律識別跟通報處置以及如何在課程中教導學生處理分手暴力跟"},{"start":1653.894,"end":1682.962,"text":"拒絕的勇氣都是修法跟政策執行的迫切議題那為了要聽取大眾的意見跟相互的交流討論所以呢召開本次公聽會來蒐集重整歸納各界的寶貴意見那作為性別平等教育法未來修法跟政策監督的重要參考方向那在這邊跟大家報告今天的討論提綱第一個校園性別事件的性侵害"},{"start":1683.462,"end":1712.671,"text":"是否应引入不同界定模式例如积极同意或修正强制来回应失对生性侵的问题案件是不是应该依情节分流设置一个简化的程序那么制度要如何设计第二个部分对生理期怀孕者还有他的伴侣幼儿照顾者多元性别等不利处境的学生如何增进保障他们学习环境以及资源"},{"start":1713.251,"end":1729.137,"text":"第三个课题性平教育法的第18条对于不同教育阶段的性平教育课程的量应该要如何增加那大学师资培育跟性别教育研究的能量要如何配套强化"},{"start":1729.697,"end":1758.98,"text":"那校园中违反了第20条第一项要如何改善第四个课题对性平事件的调查处置要如何改善性平会承办人调查人员性平委员的量能不足并增加多元性跟专业性那要如何补强过程中被害人保护与照顾又要如何因应现行强制通报制度可能对学生造成的创伤以及行政量能的负担第五个课题"},{"start":1759.96,"end":1782.952,"text":"校园性别事件的处理机制要如何跟跟骚法有效衔接面对日益复杂的情感关系与分手的暴力风险现行性平教育课程第18条要如何具体纳入情感关系的建立与结束情绪的调节以及尊重身体自主权的实作单元"},{"start":1783.792,"end":1806.318,"text":"最后一个课题针对具有高风险跟骚倾向的学生校园心理辅导体系跟性评会要如何分工提供有效的辅导处遇而非仅止于行政的惩处以上呢是我们今天办这场公听会先跟大家说明的部分接下来我们来介绍与会"},{"start":1806.858,"end":1831.329,"text":"的委员以及与会者那我们先来介绍学者专家我在这边会依照签到的顺序来介绍第一位欢迎全国教产总工会高中职委员会的黄玉平主任谢谢您第二位全国教师会李亚文理事"},{"start":1833.431,"end":1858.006,"text":"歡迎您第三位台灣性別平等教育協會王伯源副理事長歡迎您第四位南投縣教產工會許立真理事長歡迎您第五位台灣同志諮詢熱線協會的彭志流副秘書長"},{"start":1859.892,"end":1880.407,"text":"欢迎您第六位大专校院性别平等委员会的庄慧琪业务承办人欢迎您第七位全国家长会联盟陶莲生理事长欢迎您第八位国教行动联盟张文昌常务理事"},{"start":1881.82,"end":1909.818,"text":"欢迎您第九位全国高级中等学校教产工会法规团协部的黄慧珍主任欢迎您第十位暖暖协会倡议研究王资文主任欢迎您第十一位性别平等学生倡议连线倡议工作组邵思宇赵吉仁欢迎您第十二位"},{"start":1911.013,"end":1929.972,"text":"社团法人台湾EDU教育协会的冯玉洁倡议专员欢迎您第十三位新北市资商新理事公会罗慧群理事长欢迎您以上是我们目前列席的专家学者"},{"start":1932.13,"end":1957.942,"text":"接下來我們接著介紹政府機關代表第一位我們要介紹的是教育部朱俊章常務次長謝謝次長那第二位是衛福部的代表保護司張靖倫副司長謝謝您第三位法務部的代表汪南君參事"},{"start":1959.993,"end":1977.938,"text":"謝謝您第四位是內政部警政署代表防治組徐坤龍徐副組長那其餘列席的機關代表請參閱名單不再逐一介紹並列入公報記錄"},{"start":1982.83,"end":2009.502,"text":"好 接下来我们介绍目前到场的委员有蔡春丑委员谢谢蔡委员好 那为了大家能够顺利的表达意见我们做以下的处理每一位发言时间7分钟在第6分钟的时候会有铃声提醒7分钟结束会有一个结束铃声"},{"start":2010.783,"end":2033.657,"text":"学者专家发言的顺序我们以签到的先后顺序为准现场发言跟书面的资料立法院会做成记录刊登公报本院的委员如果要发言请于上午10点前到主席台这边登记我们会在会议中穿插安排并依序来发言"},{"start":2034.857,"end":2060.818,"text":"10点以后登记的委员要安排在所有学者专家发言完毕之后再按登记的顺序发言如果需要提前发言我们再次情况着与调整那现在呢我们第一位我们请教育部的朱俊章次长就现行的规定执行的状况相关的问题来做说明时间是7分钟朱次长请"},{"start":2067.659,"end":2091.201,"text":"各位委員 各位團體代表與會的先生女士今日應邀進行性平法修法公聽會本部進行報告並聆聽各位委員團體代表與會女士先生的著見深感榮幸以下拯救本部相關措施提出報告 敬請各位委員及先進指導與支持"},{"start":2092.522,"end":2116.437,"text":"《性平法》是施行以來持續充實性平課程及教學資源以及精進校園性別事件的調查處理機制以下本部就校園性性愛事件的認定程序、學習環境與資源的建構、課程教學的推動、事件的調查與保護措施、跟蹤殺老與情感教育、高風險跟蹤殺老個案的輔導措施等等進行說明"},{"start":2116.917,"end":2142.206,"text":"第一个在校园性侵害事件的认定与程序的方面在性侵害事件是认定依性平法规定是参照性侵害犯罪防治法及刑法的刑事罪名是否采纳积极同意或修正强制的认定模式仍需要法务部与卫护部共同来研议结果那来确保整个法律间接跟司法审判的一致性"},{"start":2143.426,"end":2171.105,"text":"其次本部已經委託分析歷年來教職員對於學生之校園性別事件的樣態解決學校間因為保密義務導致的一些資訊缺乏的困境計畫的成果將作為未來政策建構以及學校處理案件的參考對於市政確診的明確案件學校得不成立調查小組改由性評會直接來受理雙方當事人的書面以及言辭的陳述"},{"start":2174.767,"end":2196.314,"text":"与会议记录中来简化程序但若有人需反弹的认定事实则需要依法成立调查小组来撰写报告下一步也涵盘了判断基准包括行为与被害人的关系是否具备故意过往的记录犯后的态度以及被害人的身心状况以及受害者"},{"start":2197.274,"end":2220.781,"text":"的受害程度等等要素作為學校調查處理教職員工涉案情節輕重的參據第二個在學習環境以及資源的建構方面第一在112年8月1號起已經實施友善提供多元生理用品計劃並定班校園及部署管所提供多元生理用品的支援"},{"start":2221.821,"end":2230.568,"text":"同時本部也通函各校將生理假納入請假規定學生每個月得請生理假一日且無需出示相關的證明"},{"start":2231.701,"end":2252.63,"text":"那也奠定了要點來維護懷孕的學生受教權益督導學校提供談刑請假成績考核以及保留入學資格等等的協助那本部也發布了大專校院校園性別友善廁所及宿舍的設計指引與手冊預計在115年完成宿舍建置的參考手冊辦理空間研討會"},{"start":2253.81,"end":2282.549,"text":"强化学校认为建置空间环境的智能本部也把性别友善空间纳入相关的讲补助的指标以及业务审查的参考鼓励学校来正视相关的议题措施国教署也透过研讨会跟补助计划将多元议题纳入校园的宣导跟教职员的培训并结合资源中心跟辅导团来开发多元性别议题的教案本部也研发了各级学校的校园友善"},{"start":2283.37,"end":2283.422,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":2283.787,"end":2310.965,"text":"教材的資源手冊來提升教職員對於跨性別學生的認知三在性別平等教育課程的教學動跟處理的機制方面目前依照十二年國家課綱已經把性別平等教育融入各個學科跟校定的課程大專校院的部分也要廣開性別研究的課程來落實多元的學習環境每年也會補助大專校院執行相關的課程開發計畫涵蓋了"},{"start":2313.807,"end":2341.505,"text":"涵挂了情感教育以及对性别等等面向并提供课程的参考资源协助老师来检视教学内涵并引导学校能够落实自主检核那在思培课程的部分之前的老师也必须要完成18小时的性平教育的工作坊那每年也协调思培的大学要来开设性别平等的学分落实第一线老师的性平意识的培力"},{"start":2342.706,"end":2360.522,"text":"倘若发现老师在授课的时候有性别的偏见性别歧视等等情势疑似违反性平法也会依照性平法的规定及时的调查处理教育部也通行各级学校跟命令单位应该落实性平平等的检核"},{"start":2361.463,"end":2374.618,"text":"在面體的時候要避免使用有關性別偏見或不當的語言也委託開發的評量工具的設計原則跟檢核表並透過工作坊來推廣四 在校園性評的調查"},{"start":2376.843,"end":2398.74,"text":"量能跟被害者保護部份目前教育部已經成立了防治支援中心提供相關的諮詢提升學校在處理調查事件的品質同時也透過市區大專校院性評推廣中心跟辦理傳承的研習案例的研討會來提升相關承辦人跟調查人員在法規"},{"start":2399.961,"end":2427.759,"text":"的熟悉以及性平的意志那下一步也研擬了校園性平事件調查處理原則的相關經費的資用以及行政處理實務來提供各個主管機關跟學校有所參考也修正了調查人員培訓跟人才庫建置的要點擴大培訓的對象納入多元的專業人員並增加培訓的時數以及課程的內容來強化調查人員的專業性以及對被害者的保護"},{"start":2428.459,"end":2443.584,"text":"那在校園性別事件的通報的核心在於即使要啟動輔導跟保護的機制那我們也會透過強化第一線能源的專業判斷來兼顧效率跟品質第五"},{"start":2444.204,"end":2464.405,"text":"在校園性平安建以及跟蹤、騷擾及情感階級的衍接部分教育部已經整合了《跟殺法》跟《性平法》有關於校園防治的相關規定同時也把情感互動跟情緒調節納入十二年國教課綱的實質內涵辦理相關的實務研習將數位的性別教育跟跟蹤、騷擾等等納入課程"},{"start":2467.428,"end":2492.465,"text":"来提升辅导人员处理相关事件的智能来协助学生学习尊重差异跟平等协商那在校园高风险及跟踪骚扰个案的辅导方面我们也由性品会依法会计时的进行调查在同时调查署时会有8小时的性品的课程来协助被害人跟警政单位的报案"},{"start":2497.649,"end":2523.689,"text":"有关校园友善的环境以上报告敬请各位委员会知道好谢谢朱司长就教育部目前执行状况所做的说明那其余有卫生福利部做书面报告内政部警政署做书面报告请问机关代表张靖伦副司长徐坤龙副组长有没有要做口头说明"},{"start":2524.701,"end":2551.851,"text":"好謝謝那機關代表說明完畢相關的書面資料請各位參閱並列入公報記錄那在這邊做一個補充介紹我們道場的立法委員郭育晴委員謝謝那另外道場的學者專家有不會教小孩行動聯盟陳怡理事長歡迎您好"},{"start":2553.168,"end":2560.208,"text":"接下来我们开始请学者专家发言首先我们请黄玉平主任发言请"},{"start":2573.209,"end":2584.759,"text":"主席還有委員各位與會的先進大家早安那接下來就由我全國教育產業總工會高中職主任我是黃玉萍以下是我的簡報"},{"start":2586.314,"end":2612.592,"text":"那首先呢我們看到新評法第1819及20條的處理機制那我們是認為說基本上高級中等以下的學校的教材編寫大部分的教材是教育部審定通過的版本那學校如果要更多元化或者是學校教室自編那必須經由主管機關的審定那才能使用那我們認為教育部身為主管機關他是應該要有"},{"start":2616.354,"end":2631.199,"text":"最優先把關的責任那以避免基層的選用之後會有造成有不同的標準的一個困擾那ok 第二點那性平法是8920"},{"start":2632.879,"end":2652.019,"text":"教學關於我們在教師校園裡面工作的教職員工也好那回歸性平法的處理機制就可以了那目前依照相關的法規我們皆能夠處理性別事件中教師因教學所引起的性騷性別偏見歧視等等"},{"start":2655.222,"end":2678.131,"text":"也都有考核的相關的懲處機制那我們應該來避免跌床駕屋那針對教學狀況或者是涉及情節重大那我們一樣可以回歸到教師法高級中等以下學校解聘不需聘停聘或資遣的辦法那他都有教學不力相關的處理機制應該避免跌床駕屋"},{"start":2681.232,"end":2704.618,"text":"那主管針對校園性別事件的意識調查跟決議等那主管機關呢應該落實每年至少一次來培訓學校的相關承辦人員包含校長主任校安人員及相關處事的組長來做校園性別事件處理的行政程序的流程尤其是面對我們現今校園行政組長們的那個出手潮"},{"start":2709.739,"end":2738.286,"text":"那應該都要再落實而不要只留於書面或者是宣導應該要實地的做下來來做一個培訓那更要降低這樣的培訓可以來降低因為行政程序疏失來衍生的後續的重啟調查申付相關的申訴行政訴訟那這樣子也可以來避免被害人的二次傷害"},{"start":2739.298,"end":2754.326,"text":"那食物中呢性品業務負荷過重調查與教育費用佐之有助那我相信在校園中第一線工作的教職人員一定相當的有感那我們回流的培訓呢更應該"},{"start":2756.388,"end":2779.43,"text":"針對調查報告的撰寫方式法規的更新時事的議題調查方法調查技巧以及報告的論述等課程來培訓而不叫只有法規或其他的紙上的程序作業說明那教育部呢應該有更明確的範本那避免審查人員的更迭或各有想法"},{"start":2779.83,"end":2802.225,"text":"那各縣市或各部門的不同的意見來造成往返修正的報告內容那更增加了行政的負擔調查費用呢更應該明列於法規中由主管機關來負責編列預算指引避免呢各縣市因財務因素有不同的做法那更避免"},{"start":2802.645,"end":2827.557,"text":"排擠學校的消務基金來影響原本消務基金是用來改善教學以及學生學習的經費好那有關性平法第16條第二項第二款那行為人接受性別平等教育的相關課程主管機關應該有明確的規劃那要方便一般的民眾"},{"start":2828.197,"end":2855.537,"text":"學生教師都可以來接受學習的資源開設的課程也可以提供線上那來諸禁身份別等等那地方縣市政府辦理的行為人防治教育專業人員的培訓更要有明確的資訊那不管是證書或者是時數的認證等等要更明確那來確保相關課程的執行的完備"},{"start":2856.857,"end":2884.746,"text":"那以上是我全國教育產業總工會的建議感謝聆聽非常感謝全教產高中職委員會的主委黃玉萍主任的發言那接下來我們邀請全國教師會的李雅雯理事上台發言請主席各位委員相關部會代表以及委員會的專家學者及媒體朋友們大家好我是全國教師會理事李雅雯"},{"start":2885.046,"end":2912.555,"text":"今年適逢性平平等教育法實行的20週年這部法律見證了我們校園性平意識的成長這是本次公聽會的討論提供比較多然而站在教學現場的第一線以教師組織的身份我們必須針對校園性別事件處理性平教育課程實務性平位與輔導分工等提出幾個實務觀察與修法的建議首先我們要建議目前學校校園最大問題是在於不分輕重 暗暗大半"},{"start":2913.055,"end":2932.299,"text":"現行機制要求所有案件一律要走同樣的嚴謹調查程序導致行政量能的負荷過窄消耗了教育資源更激化了校園對立我們主張應該要分流減量首先重案還是要嚴查針對權力不對等情節重大或涉及性侵案件應該維持嚴謹法律程序以招公信"},{"start":2932.699,"end":2954.947,"text":"其次 輕案要分流針對同儕言語冒犯或輕微歧視應修法允許輔導先行讓案件回歸學校的溝通輔導機制用教育化解紛爭而非用調查來激化對立對於青少年學童等未成年人來說過早進入法律程序對其身心發展未必有益請各位可以看一下我們簡報上的一些實務案例"},{"start":2955.307,"end":2982.477,"text":"我國小低年級學生在走廊模仿飛機奔跑的時候手不小心插到旁邊的男同學的屁股或者是國中老師上課時用眼神適應女學生收課外書結果被女學生檢舉不祝福這些都是現場曾經發生過以往透過管教輔導就能處理的案件現在卻被強制要求啟動與性侵害案件同等的調查程序耗費的同樣的經費與時間顯然是不符合比例原則的再來當制度"},{"start":2982.677,"end":3009.723,"text":"缺乏分流調查程序就容易淪為濫訴者手裡的刀我們觀察到武器投訴武器化的現象正在蔓延在性平安也是有存在的我們現在最近甚至網路平台上出現的學生公然討論如何利用性平安來陷害老師的公約甚至有學生他就直言說他性騷擾把他搞進校思維反正很難舉證左官感受不舒服就可以還能順便搞爛他的名聲讓他一輩子背負老師的罪孽"},{"start":3010.563,"end":3035.673,"text":"這個東西現在還在網路上而且其實學生去用各種投訴案件去弄老師這件事情是在現場存在的事實我們也都知道有這樣子的狀況發生同時我們也面臨一些人是通報的一個困境老師依法通報結果反遭疑似行為人家長非常生氣說這麼一點小事你就說我家的小朋友是性騷擾犯他非常生氣反過來指控老師霸凌學生或者是國小女學童罵"},{"start":3036.693,"end":3050.662,"text":"在玩芭比娃娃的男同學變態噁心所以老師就教導女學童要有正確的性平觀念結果女學童的家長卻反過來打1999投訴老師的觀念有問題然後教育局的做法居然是反過來責備學校未通報...等等"},{"start":3052.343,"end":3069.827,"text":"這種不通報有事通報也有事的氛圍其實嚴重破壞了我們親師生的一個信賴所以我們對這些制度有一些建言針對上述困境我們提出三點修法建議以實現行政檢押第一個建立通報前專業諮詢機制出版機關應該設置24小時熱線讓教師在接收模糊訊息時可以諮詢專業的意見避免因恐懼受罰而進行預罰制甚至是卸責式的通報過度的通報造成行政負債"},{"start":3081.53,"end":3097.01,"text":"第二個落實通報後不等於立即調查對已成年的大學生或情節輕微無及時危險的案件建議修法允許信用輔導人員介入評估尊重被害人的調查起始權若被害人強烈拒絕應以"},{"start":3098.012,"end":3115.152,"text":"輔導支持取代強制反彈以防止二次傷害第三個要建立行政防火牆我們應該要保障依法辦理業務的教育人員免遭報復式的控訴並且在他們遭到被告時提供實質的法律輔助那麼接下來在關於課程的部分"},{"start":3115.712,"end":3140.957,"text":"其實在性平教育或是情感教育的課程實務方面現行的課綱教材在健體領域或者是性平教育議題融入已經相當完善所以考量到每週課程時數的限制因為我們的課程時數每週三四五節就是那麼多而已不能再塞更多東西了所以實務上的挑戰是在於如何落實教學而非在增加時數或內容第一個我們建議提供模組化的教學資源教育部應"},{"start":3141.657,"end":3158.893,"text":"開發具備實踐性的模組化教案包例如分手演練情緒調節工具等等讓非專長授課的配課老師也能有標準安全的資源可以依循降低教學現場的壓力因為我們都知道建教老師很多都是非專長的老師有專長建教專長的授課老師是比較少的第二個強化實務研習"},{"start":3163.157,"end":3186.588,"text":"我們研習要盡量減少理論而是增加情境對應的一個實作讓現場老師在處理高度敏感議題時能有更強的底氣第三個呢在落實教材與評量來審議教育部應該落實審定審定本的教科書審查學校科發會來落實字編教材的審查至於考題命題也有審題機制這也是需要落實的所以我們不應該用"},{"start":3187.328,"end":3209.85,"text":"極端個案把它當成是通案來看第四個要取得家長支持與配合非常遺憾的告訴各位並非所有的家長都具備性平法期待的性別平等意識所以當有家長不能諒解教師依合法教材進行的教學的時候主管機關及學校應該要協助老師跟家長溝通而不是放老師去給家長捧擠並且給予支持"},{"start":3210.45,"end":3235.098,"text":"好 在有關法律銜接 新評法與更燒法的部分面對高風險更燒傾向的學生 最擔心的往往是懲處了事但仇恨或執念更生 要有效轉化這類行為行政與輔導要有明確的分工 且要與保障被害人的權益並行好 第一個 在新評會的部分 新評會他應該要建立行為的底線新評會要負責事實認定與環境安全"},{"start":3235.618,"end":3249.832,"text":"那如果跟消犯的行為人學生與懲處及輔導後還是再次的發生再犯行為我們就應該要考慮以跟消法作為外部防護對接警政合法書面告誡一併啟動校園內的強制隔離措施例如強制轉學或者是進行彈性課程調整特定作息等第二個輔導機制是來處理內在偏執處於重點應從"},{"start":3260.322,"end":3284.567,"text":"只有輔導行為人轉向輔導與被害人保護同步來保障來處理行為人行為背後的心理動力一輪一夫障礙啊自戀損傷啊衝動控制障礙等等之輔導工作可持續進行但不能以犧牲被害人的受教安全感為代價而且要必須實質增加輔導人力才能落實專業處於這裡我們期待教育部選擇輔導法第9法通過但是我們還沒有看到"},{"start":3284.947,"end":3309.055,"text":"增加專輔人力到校育現場真的是期待教育部的腳步要快一點所以我們各位委員在新平法已經走過20年我們要求的是更務實 更具教育溫度的制度我們的主張是行政務實分流 輕按回歸輔導教學支持到位 通報政府相挺讓法律成為校園的防護網而非教育的絆腳石以上是我的發言 謝謝大家"},{"start":3309.955,"end":3321.101,"text":"非常感谢全教会李敖文理事在政策上的建言好那接下来我们邀请的是立法委员蔡春筹委员请上台发言"},{"start":3339.355,"end":3346.663,"text":"主席各位同仁還有議會的專家寫者還有各位先進大家好"},{"start":3349.114,"end":3370.447,"text":"我想經過一個健康優質的校園環境然後能夠平等對待能夠融合共好我想是從事教育的所有的工作人員的一個目標學校的學習就是一個社會化的一個過程尤其是人際關係的一個養成"},{"start":3374.164,"end":3398.774,"text":"師生不管是師生或是同學之間就是應該要互相的一個尊重這個是在我們學校裡面就必須要建立的一個觀念那今天我們所要討論的討論的就是憲北平等教育法的一個修法我本人想先舉三個例子來做一個說明在還沒有說明之前我要先強調一個觀點一個觀念"},{"start":3402.015,"end":3403.638,"text":"我們現在面對的一個問題不是沒有制度而是要制度在食物的操作上我們有一些漏洞那必須要來做修法補強那第一個案例就是台大"},{"start":3420.318,"end":3423.94,"text":"博士生在2022年的時候申訴遭宿舍胡導演性騷擾案校內性評會調查以後認定不成立當事人一路提起"},{"start":3436.804,"end":3461.161,"text":"深戶 申訴 訴验及行政訴訟後台北高等行政法院以2025年內定該次憲憑會議組織不合法撤銷原處分教育部其後也要求台大重啟調查這個案例很清楚的問題不只是個案的本身而是程序"},{"start":3462.422,"end":3476.741,"text":"如果出了問題整個調查的結果都可能會被推翻制度的一個公信力也會跟著受影響那第二個案例就是2025年媒體揭露高雄某"},{"start":3478.463,"end":3498.982,"text":"公益高職進修部代理老師遭多位師生指控涉及霸凌歧視新住民學生並曾在班勤傳送涉及性騷的一些詞彙外界高度關注的一個重點在校方視我延遲通報為及時啟動處理機制"},{"start":3503.826,"end":3519.092,"text":"這也讓大家質疑 制度到底有沒有被切實來執行 該做的有沒有及時去做也反映出目前在受理之後 要怎麼啟動 多久要處理 這些都是我們之後要來檢討的"},{"start":3521.033,"end":3541.73,"text":"第三就是教育部前次長葉秉成涉及到性平案件資訊揭露爭議葉秉成以2025年4月在社群平台發文評論性平事件因文中截圖涉及當事人可辨識資訊而引發爭議"},{"start":3544.652,"end":3573.592,"text":"其实最终被认定违反性平等教育法能遭台北市政府社会级认定违反性侵害犯罪反制法保密规定并裁罚这个案例提醒我们在性平事件中知性要怎么样处理隐私要怎么样保护其实都有很大的一个改善空间综合这三个案例可以整理出三个核心的问题"},{"start":3574.712,"end":3579.576,"text":"就是处理程序是不是够完整够合法"},{"start":3604.672,"end":3620.64,"text":"一 讓性平事件處理程序更清楚 更公正二 讓處理時間能夠更明確 更避免拖延三 也讓文書跟資訊的一個隱私保護能夠更到位那性平"},{"start":3622.797,"end":3646.341,"text":"平等交易法的一個修法的目的是要讓制度更被信任而不是增加第一線的負擔更不是製造新的問題那在這裡也要跟各位來分享我本人本身是一位體育老師那體育老師在教學過程裡面有很多是要做示範動作的那在做示範動作的過程要保護"},{"start":3649.382,"end":3662.339,"text":"要讓學生來做這樣的一個技能的練習的時候常常會做一些比較技術性的一個動作的時候老師必須要做一個保護所以以我個人的教學的經驗我們就會研發一些"},{"start":3668.766,"end":3685.714,"text":"就是助教學效果一些功績來幫助同學能夠順利來學習這樣一個技能因為體育老師的風險最大因為有很多是必須肢體的一個接觸的所以呢在這個高風險的一個"},{"start":3687.635,"end":3708.368,"text":"的一個環境裡面體育老師其實他也是要自保那我們希望不要讓體育老師不敢教學那當然我們希望說透過教育部能夠研發更多的關於技能科的一些教學他需要很多有資題接觸的一些教學有一些補助的一個交際來讓體育老師能夠"},{"start":3713.291,"end":3716.012,"text":"很多技能科的老師能夠用以來把他們的一個技能能夠發揮出來能讓我們的學生真正能夠學到技能這個我也想說希望教育部這邊能夠做一個研發最後呢"},{"start":3728.459,"end":3732.98,"text":"也誠懇請在座的各位專家寫者以及代表能夠提供專業的意見還有實務的經驗在未來在審查法案的時候本人跟台灣民眾黨團一定會把各位的建議納入一個很重要的參考讓這一次的一個修法把制度補得更完整以上報告 謝謝"},{"start":3754.366,"end":3762.578,"text":"非常感谢蔡春筹委员的发言接下来我们邀请郭玉琴委员请上台谢谢"},{"start":3767.69,"end":3788.659,"text":"謝謝主席所有在場與會的先進大家早安我想性平法的立法到現在為止已經是超過了20年了那我隨著這個時代的轉變那我們尤其是看到這個數位科技的日漸越異所以這個校園的這個關於性平的這樣子的一個事件的樣態其實已經產生非常巨大的一個變化了"},{"start":3789.299,"end":3805.411,"text":"那校園其實照正常的邏輯來說應該是要保護學生的一個最堅強的一個堡壘最安全的一個堡壘但是從這個近期我們看到關於這個校園性平的一些案件的一個通報數那是逐年在增加當中"},{"start":3806.252,"end":3819.743,"text":"那也就像剛剛我所說的因為我們的這個所謂的這個性平的事件已經開始樣態出現了一個劇烈的一個變化那我們看到這些數據從這個109年開始通報數已經破萬那再到了112年的時候呢其實也增加了2萬這已經破了2萬到了113年的時候是2萬4千多件這樣子的一個通報數所以其實在面對這樣子的一個數字他不僅僅是"},{"start":3834.414,"end":3852.326,"text":"只是一個數字而是很多受害的學生其實在這個這一塊的地方是需要更多的一個安全的一個保護那我想在過去我曾經多次質詢我們的教育部那另外也關心這個校園當中的一些性平的事件那麼不管是從這個台大"},{"start":3853.573,"end":3870.798,"text":"涉間的一個性品案然後另外呢像是這個台灣戲曲學院的狼屍的事件還有就是桃園特教助理員霸凌的一個性騷的一個案件喔那我用這兩個例子來做比喻喔那在台灣戲曲學院的一個狼屍案"},{"start":3871.258,"end":3888.004,"text":"那這位老師呢其實在整個我們的教育體系當中其實大家都知情但是他卻在這樣子的一個狀況之下還可以隱匿在校園當中甚至到出了校園可能到了這個自己所開設的所謂的訓練的學生的這樣子一個場域當中長達"},{"start":3892.005,"end":3915.485,"text":"15年的時間在涉及像這樣子的一個所謂的這個性侵的一個案件那他不但是長期性侵同時也霸凌學生但是呢另外就是在這樣子的一個長時間狀況之下其實凸顯了一個很嚴重的一個問題就顯示我們對於所謂的不適任的人員的稽查跟淘汰的機制其實還有很大的改革跟進步的空間"},{"start":3916.366,"end":3942.641,"text":"那另外呢在這個桃園特教助理員的這個霸凌跟性騷案那這個部分的是這一位特教的助理員他涉嫌就是看學生的內衣同時霸凌但是校方怎麼處理呢校方對於吹哨者他們是用所謂的秋後算帳這樣子的一個態度那這讓我們更堅定應該要強化對於所謂的特教生等弱勢的族群在性平的一個保障"},{"start":3943.041,"end":3958.931,"text":"因為他們往往這些受害者是更難以用我們一般人所知道的這些言語來表達他曾經受傷害的這樣子的一個過往跟經驗所以這個其實凸顯了我們的這個性平的部分其實還有很大的進步空間"},{"start":3959.731,"end":3973.21,"text":"那在這裡其實在我也要特別謝謝就是憲平學生倡議連線他也特別來跟我的辦公室那麼除了來訪以外呢同時呢在修法的部分我們也呼應了"},{"start":3974.554,"end":4001.884,"text":"他們的一些在校園現場的一些需求我想這些訴求包含第一與時俱進我們要明確的定義新興的一個暴力那麼在修法當中其實我們也明確的要將所謂的親密關係暴力跟數位性別暴力納入我們的法定的一個定義我想現在很多年輕人他們的約會的暴力通常是持續性的一個控制還有情緒勒索"},{"start":4002.364,"end":4018.718,"text":"那麼在數位空間當中的一些性影像的散佈那對於所謂的這受害者尤其是人格權是毀滅性的這樣子的一個打擊那這個時候我們應該要讓法律走在更前面尤其是要走在真的嚴重傷害之前"},{"start":4019.358,"end":4036.576,"text":"那第二個剛剛其實也有專家學者有特別提到就是說我們的課程是不是也應該要再更加的強化那我想針對這個工地會或者是我們的剛剛都有特別提到在所謂的情感教育的課程量到底足不足夠"},{"start":4037.176,"end":4055.226,"text":"那在修法的部分呢其實我是主張要在尤其是在高級中等學校每一個學期至少要四個小時的一個性平課程那當然這個性平的課程內容呢也含掛包含親密關係的溝通那數位暴力防治跟情感的一個教育啊那我們"},{"start":4055.666,"end":4072.177,"text":"不僅僅是要教導學生要如何的防範那更重要的是要教他們如何建立正常健康的關係但是呢在結束這樣子的一個關係的時候也要有一個正面的態度這個其實是我特別在這個部分"},{"start":4072.577,"end":4091.263,"text":"要來就是修法的一個核心重點那另外的第三點就是建立全方位的防護網跟查核的一個機制那麼尤其是當這個數位暴力發生的時候其實學校應該要及時的協助被害人他進行所謂的證據的保全跟線上影像的一個移除"},{"start":4091.823,"end":4105.461,"text":"那麼同時呢我們也應該要借接這個內政部的警政署同時還有衛福部的這個性影像處理中心的一些資料那麼強化對不適任人員的一個稽查那同時呢也不容許有前科的人員"},{"start":4106.832,"end":4126.187,"text":"換個學校出了校門他還要繼續傷害孩子那我想這也是我修法的一個三大核心重點那麼我想性平教育不應該只是填填數據就像我剛剛說的那些數據但是我們更應該要重視就是要重視校園當中的性平的一個專業的能量"},{"start":4126.567,"end":4150.693,"text":"那麼也不應該會是所謂的這個大家在面對這樣子的問題的同時也不應該把它視為所謂的這個燙手山芋應該要從制度面要開始給我們的受害者一個真正的保護那希望今天能夠透過這樣子的一個公聽會大家都可以凝聚共識交換意見同時讓我們的性平教育成為守護孩子的就是很重要的一道光那以上 謝謝"},{"start":4152.163,"end":4173.175,"text":"非常感谢郭玉琴委员提供政策上修法的意见我们在这边继续补充介绍在现场的委员有范云委员接下来有请台湾性别平等教育协会的王伯源副理事长来做发言请"},{"start":4183.339,"end":4199.559,"text":"主席各位委員各位委員會先進大吼我本身是來自特教學校的現場教師同時也是詳細參與性別平等教育的製度跟學務工作今天想要從第一線的經驗出發然後想要提出幾個關於性別平等法制度未來的觀點跟建議"},{"start":4200.88,"end":4224.616,"text":"那我這邊想要先談一個概念是現在校園想要在面對的其實不是性別事件變多而是學生的關係樣態然後學生的性別處境還有整個社會環境很快速的在改變就像我們很久以前我們並不需要去討論數位性別暴力這個東西但是近期你會發現它是一個很大的顯學所以現在狀況比較是制度還停留在過去的設計"},{"start":4225.436,"end":4244.833,"text":"但是其实我们要面临很多新的问题那今天我就试着回应这六个提纲的概念好那第一个是就是重新去思考性性和认定跟案件的分流机制那是积极同意这件事情在目前因为本身也是性别事件调查人才库的调查人才那其实积极同意"},{"start":4245.833,"end":4271.91,"text":"他能不能被纳入在性别事情调查的时候的一个准则他是很看委员调查委员他自己的心证怎么去判断这件事情那再来是对于案情明确这件事情其实这个在性别法里面已经存在很久了但是对于案情明确的定义还有那个界定其实它才是真正实物上面困难的地方那例如说A说他有看到然后B说没有"},{"start":4272.27,"end":4292.51,"text":"那如果有看到就能当做案情明确吗那或者说学校在调监视器的时候监视器如果拍的不那么完全他能当做案情明确吗但是很多时候案情明确反而会变成学校有些时候他反而变得很两难他没办法去去决定说这样到底怎么算明确但是我觉得如果说我们要采取对于案情明确"},{"start":4292.95,"end":4311.906,"text":"可以簡化他的制度的話可能也要有一個就是指引的方式讓學校知道說在實務現場上面真正能達到案情明確他的檢核他的操作性定義是什麼那對於詮釋的部分其實我們會覺得我們當然會知道說以積極同意來看因為學生在詮釋的狀態下他很難說不要"},{"start":4313.707,"end":4339.327,"text":"但是我们也会发现到说即便你把就是积极同意当做是个标准可是在权势的状态上面他也很难不说他可能也很难不说要就是当在权势的关系存在的时候不管我说不要或是我说要我都有可能会被一个比我位阶更高的人去主导说我要去说出这样子的回答但是我们会觉得积极同意我们绝对支持但是他在适用的时候或是说他在"},{"start":4340.208,"end":4358.87,"text":"进行专业的训练的时候我们要如何去表达这个概念让调查人员去知道可能也是要在演绎这样子哦好那第二个部分是对于不同处境的学生我们可以如何去保障他那首先是像在特殊教育里面的合理调整的概念然后还有个别化的概念这些可能都是可以参考的哦"},{"start":4359.37,"end":4373.958,"text":"例如說給學生彈性課程另外還有像無障礙的概念這邊無障礙其實我們可以把它放比較大來看同樣的一個東西如果他對於一個人是無障礙他也不會對於其他非這個身份的人造成障礙就如同"},{"start":4374.438,"end":4389.06,"text":"性別友善廁所並不會排擠到其他廁所其他大家都可以上性別友善廁所嗎所以說如果我們對於可能是懷孕的學生或是要照顧幼兒的學生來看我們提供給他的資源可能相對的對於學校裡面"},{"start":4389.58,"end":4410.087,"text":"其他学生来说那个也不会是一种特权或是一种障碍所以我们这个部分是很支持的那可能包含多元性别学生的安全空间那需要照顾幼儿的学生他的课业的辅导那还有就是生理期的资源这些也都很期待可以在教育现场去做落实好那第三是性别就是"},{"start":4411.247,"end":4430.908,"text":"性平克省跟私自培育法的量能喔那首先是我们这边想要强调就是性别平等在我们现在的教育现场来看它其实是一种专业素养它不是一种道德劝说但很多人还是会认为性别平等是一种道德劝说但它在我们现场教师来看它已经是个专业素养的等级喔"},{"start":4431.388,"end":4447.999,"text":"那我们还是会看到说课程的时数可能是不足的那内容可能过于零散但是我们也很建议说在教师的培训里面要包含情感关系的建立跟结束那还有就是尊重身体自我权或者说身体界限这些但其实"},{"start":4450.321,"end":4477.599,"text":"我們想要強調一個概念是性別不平等跟性別刻板印象並不是在課堂上面被教出來的所以等價交換你也不可能只透過課程教學你就可以達到性別平等或是瓦解性別刻板印象它也包含教師平常跟學生的輔導還有班級經營這些層面都是存在的那所以不只有是課程教師在學校做的其他層面其實也是很需要被充能很需要被再重新再培訓的這樣子"},{"start":4480.181,"end":4496.151,"text":"第四個部分是改善性別性評會的部分喔那這邊其實目前很多學校會面臨的狀況是性評會成半人員的過度負荷還有調查人才庫的不足喔那我們這邊想要提幾個建議首先是跨區域的調查人才庫"},{"start":4496.571,"end":4517.359,"text":"因為現在各縣市可能只有他自己單獨縣市的調查人才庫學校可能也會習慣往自己縣市的人才庫找可是像例如我在南投的學校我離彰化跟台中都很近其實我們可以鼓勵學校你也可以尋找跨區人才庫的制度這樣子另外還有一個狀況是調查委員的專業落差很大"},{"start":4519.56,"end":4541.14,"text":"那我們這幾年看到的狀況是第一批的調查委員他的報告是很有問題的所以學校又必須要啟動那個量能去找第二批的調查委員來來培訓這樣子所以會很期待各縣市政府或是主管機關就是對於調查委員的專業落差大這件事情可能分級培訓制度的建立可能要再更嚴謹這樣子"},{"start":4542.421,"end":4568.918,"text":"好那第五个部分是跟骚的情节在性平法这件事情要如何去衔接那我们想要谈的概念是跟骚的情节它在性平法它还是会成立的就是我们在学校处理性别实践的时候如果监视它是符合跟骚的样态那它在校园性别实践法性别教育法里面它也还是成立的这样子那我们在教育部其实性别平等是一个重大议题它有九大学习组它有各阶段的实质内涵哦"},{"start":4569.418,"end":4596.275,"text":"但是他在國中小是融入外加4小時的課程他在高中是融入課程但在我們實際現場上面來看因為他並沒有一個法源依據去強制教師一定要做或是說他是沒有罰則的但當然我覺得這對小小教師來說他的壓力也很大可是我們也還是很遺憾的看到這十九大議題十二年國教的十九大議題他終究還是只淋為議題這樣子好那最後想要談到"},{"start":4597.776,"end":4619.571,"text":"想要談的就是說現在我們試著再把制度從初試後去處理然後轉向事前教育跟支持才是我們真正要學習的空間這樣子好 以上報告 謝謝各位好 非常感謝台灣性平教育協會王美媛理事長的一個發言那在這邊補充介紹現場的委員林月琴委員"},{"start":4623.415,"end":4629.218,"text":"謝謝接下來有請南投縣教產工會許麗珍理事長上台發言請大家好"},{"start":4639.424,"end":4668.416,"text":"我今天要说的主题是当法律名词变成性骚扰不要让性品调查变成校园里的文字狱我是南投县教育产业工会理事长徐立珍老师我今天代表第一线教育工作者带着一份沉重但具备歧视意义的判决来到这里目前校园性别事件处理制度已经演变成一场校园里的文字狱它不仅是在调查事件更在审查教学在恐吓专业"},{"start":4669.176,"end":4686.638,"text":"我想透过高雄高等行政法院13年度数字第九号判决这个案例来跟各位谈谈这套制度是怎么从保护学生变成一种有罪推定的审判逼得老师得跑法院才能自证清白"},{"start":4689.073,"end":4717.456,"text":"第一 制度的傲慢是谁给了性平制度审查教学内容的权利现在的性平制度已经出现严重的破权现象在这个案例中我们看见这套制度对教学自主权极度的不尊重指引老师的教学选择他们在报告里指责老师你有这么多的教学经验为什么一定要用这个例子呢你不能换别的例子吗你让学生听了不舒服所以你构成性骚扰"},{"start":4718.497,"end":4736.026,"text":"請大家評評理老師的教學自主權受憲法講學自由的保障而課綱就是專業的底線如果老師講授課綱的內容卻要因為調查小組覺得有其他替代的方案那以後老師是不是每講一個案例都要先送性評會審核呢"},{"start":4740.219,"end":4767.999,"text":"老師依照課綱講授刑法中性交的法定定義這是專業更是責任難道老師的教學自主權要受制於這套性品處理制度的喜好嗎難道教生物的老師講到生殖器官的時候調查小組也要出來說老師您教學經驗這麼豐富難道不能用水果來代替嗎法院的判決書講得很清楚專業教學不應受到這種行政程序的過度干預"},{"start":4769.605,"end":4771.093,"text":"第二 二十的有罪推定"},{"start":4772.455,"end":4800.602,"text":"目前的性平制度最令人心寒的就是那種先射箭再劃靶的氛圍他往往只聽檢舉人的主觀心情卻無視客觀的教學現場在處理過程中這套制度只抓著極少數學生覺得尷尬的正子不放但班上明明有更多的學生證實老師在檢視專業知識完全理解教學的目的結果這些支持老師專業的聲音在報告裡通通被消失了這就是制度性的偏頗"},{"start":4801.522,"end":4816.272,"text":"判決書裡特別強調了合理被害人標準判斷教學是否構成騷擾不能只憑個別學生的主觀喜好如果少數人的不舒服可以凌駕專業教學的正當性這會造成嚴重的寒蟬效應"},{"start":4818.7,"end":4838.975,"text":"第三專業術語不該被標籤化為性騷擾如果性平認定與專業教學完全脫節這個制度將變成前置言論的文字獄這個案子認定老師說到拿竹筷戳屁眼或是拿棒棒糖插屁屁等詞彙具有性意味因此判定性騷擾成立但是這樣的"},{"start":4840.216,"end":4855.895,"text":"判断显然脱离了实务教学的逻辑判决书明确记录老师当时正在解释为何器物进入肛门已经有猥亵罪升格为强制性交罪这是在特定的教学语境下"},{"start":4856.696,"end":4875.47,"text":"为了让学生了解法律边界学会守护身体所必须做的教学活动请问如果没有这些精确的描述公民课要如何教导防害性自主罪呢当专业化术与被污名化这就是扼杀了教学自主严重剥夺了学生学习自我保护的权利"},{"start":4877.677,"end":4896.197,"text":"第四,我们的改革诉求让教学自主权回归专业。我们支持性别平等,但是我们反对把性平当成工具来整肃老师。身份判决报告告诉我们,当盲目保护学生到一个程度时,受害的是全体学生的受教权。"},{"start":4897.93,"end":4915.528,"text":"因此我代表基層教師提出四點訴求第一確立教學自主權受保障原則教育部因明定教師依據課綱的講述內容具備正當性涉及教學專業的詞彙應該排除在性騷擾的性意味認定之外"},{"start":4916.129,"end":4932.574,"text":"第二 调查审议应纳入相关领域专业人士处理流程中如果涉及教学内容的争议必须强制邀请具备该领域背景的专业教师参与第三 终结有罪推定的财政惯例"},{"start":4933.214,"end":4952.179,"text":"必須落實行政程序法對老師有利不利的證據要平等呈現不能讓這套制度變成檢舉人單方面的武器第四區分教學瑕疵與性騷擾如果老師舉例不好可以討論教學技巧但是你動不動就扣一個性騷擾的帽子這對老師是一輩子的名譽損傷"},{"start":4956.843,"end":4980.004,"text":"最後我必須沉重的提醒各位委員這不是個案目前學生社群中流傳著一句話男性平女校式只要你不喜歡的男老師就告他性平我不喜歡的女老師就告他校式會議有無數老師就因為課堂上的一句話或一個例子便被捲入冗長的性平調查中"},{"start":4981.263,"end":5002.422,"text":"如果制度依舊老師們為了求生存最後只能無奈地走向防禦性教學選擇沉默與罩捧宣科因此我要懇請各位委員正視這個問題政府應該守護老師的教學自主與尊嚴別讓這份制度性的損害最後由學生的受教權來買單"},{"start":5004.264,"end":5016.73,"text":"我這上面寫了一首打油詩信憑主觀由人定容易成冤難翻身制度漏洞乏人問只因校事太詳細因為校事會議太氾濫了老師們應接不暇"},{"start":5020.592,"end":5046.992,"text":"性平的規格又這麼高弄得老師真的只能挨打連憲法保障的言論自由教學自主都被拖進去打一頓還得真的是法院還我們清白以上發言謝謝大家好非常感謝南投縣教產工會許麗珍理事長對教育現場所做的發聲跟建言接下來我們有請林月琴委員來做發言請"},{"start":5056.538,"end":5085.211,"text":"各位委員還有我們在座的專家學者大家早安近期校園性頻的案件事實上是頻傳可是當新聞爆發的時候我相信大家都有跟我一樣的疑問也就是說為什麼現行的相關法規沒有辦法好好接觸每一個孩子像是近期震撼全國的案件台中某國小的少棒隊的教練明明"},{"start":5085.931,"end":5102.614,"text":"早就已經有兩次的猥褻兒童的前科卻能獲聘用進入到校園並申請猥褻多名我們邵邦隊的成員長達六年的時間受害的孩子們長期在一個處於權威壓迫當中"},{"start":5103.555,"end":5126.235,"text":"相對的他就不敢向外求助那調查發現之後才越來越多看到越來越多的受害者然後即使姓憑 林瀟源的姓憑案件受害者真的鼓起勇氣來求助的時候可是在冗長的一個申訴的歷程當中還會遭受到我們體制跟承辦人員的惡度傷害"},{"start":5130.267,"end":5157.104,"text":"可是反觀也就是說我們的性別平等教育法在針對申訴機制的設計已經是性平三法當中相對事實上是最完整的可是這樣的機制落實在實務當中卻讓第一線的人員承擔了巨大的行政壓力因為教育部的資料去看到是2023年我們的性別平等教育法因應MeToo運動修法後大專院哨的性騷擾通報"},{"start":5158.805,"end":5177.571,"text":"直接激增往上成長了四成可是校園性平安建的每一個繁瑣的流程幾乎都要用懲辦人員來負責可是第一線的懲辦人員呢他卻不是只有單純做這些事情他有高達六成事實上是兼辦"},{"start":5178.251,"end":5198.146,"text":"所以他需要去處理其他的行政的雜務那巨大的業務量跟長時間傾聽案件的細節恐怕產生替代性創傷往往導致第一線承辦人員的流動率極高像今天也有過去這樣的承辦人員來到現場等一下他可能會去講"},{"start":5199.187,"end":5199.347,"text":"看到臺灣"},{"start":5221.397,"end":5250.443,"text":"也有相對的一些制度沒有錯可是我們的性平法裡面的第9條就是規定我們性平業務應該有專人處理那這個專人到底是專辦還是事實上是兼辦沒有特別規定沒有要求一定要專職或者是專業背景實務上當然學者有指出說懲判人員多數被定為基層的行政人力而其專業判斷有時候會受到沒有專業甚至"},{"start":5251.383,"end":5272.595,"text":"缺乏性平觀念的主管來制約所以導致我們的校平校園的性平業務被簡化到趕流程趕結案然後避免被罰的SOP而非真的能夠提供受害者實質的支持或推動輔導的教育所以如果要改善這樣的問題或許可以參考美國的教育修正"},{"start":5273.275,"end":5294.068,"text":"案的第九條的制度設計也就是這制度呢是要求各校應該設置至少一名的協調員來負責統籌處理校內的性品申訴而不是一個行政人力還要去肩負更多的行政工作的時候他根本事實上是沒有辦法把這件事情能夠完備的做好"},{"start":5294.748,"end":5314.185,"text":"所以更重要的是這項制度強調的是資源先行在案件初期的時候著重在提供當事人的支持措施後續也是否要啟動調查也會完全尊重當事人的意願使制度不僅是處理案件更能夠回應當事人的需求"},{"start":5314.605,"end":5338.485,"text":"这个我们会比较期待是不是可以去做这样的一个考量不过当然我要强调如果我们对于校园的性贫案件只停留在发生后的处理那就永远都是在补破网后续真的事实上就很难再次去真正避免伤害的再次发生所以不管是我们的CRC的24条"},{"start":5340.41,"end":5365.587,"text":"甚至兒權公約的第15號一般意見書都提到性別教育是人權是他們基本的人權也是國家保障兒少人權的一環所以我始終認為性教育的核心不該只是身體或避孕知識而是要讓孩子學會理解關係跟建立界線並在互動當中具備自我保護跟尊重他人的能力"},{"start":5366.107,"end":5388.778,"text":"所以如果同联合国倡议的全面性教育 性教育的课程应该涵盖性别平等 情感理解 人际沟通 身体自主 甚至是数位的试读最后当然就是根据台湾的性别平等教育协会的调查 台湾现行的课纲来偏向风险预防"},{"start":5390.378,"end":5406.465,"text":"駕少觸及關係跟權力互動同時教室也常因為教材的不足跟家長的壓力我想剛剛前面也在提到有沒有有些教材上甚至老師訴說的可能都會變成事實上對老師的一些抨擊所以是不是有更好的一個"},{"start":5408.18,"end":5428.739,"text":"好的教材讓教學能夠落實所以我認為制度上應該朝向三個方向調整第一個 建立專業的師資體系強化全面性教育的一個培訓第二 破除汙名並支持老師提供制度跟教材的保障第三 以學生為核心強化互動跟情境式的學習"},{"start":5429.6,"end":5447.272,"text":"使性教育回到關係理解跟界限的建立最後真的要強調的是性教育不是附加的選項而是要回應而造人權跟校園安全的重要基礎當性教育往前一步的時候其實事實上很多的傷害是可以被預防可以被避免的以上 謝謝"},{"start":5448.453,"end":5462.623,"text":"好非常感谢林月琴委员所做的发言那接下来呢我们邀请台湾同志咨询热线协会的彭志流副秘书长上台做发言请好主席各位委员然后教育部还有相关部会代表还有在场的"},{"start":5474.852,"end":5493.902,"text":"團體夥伴大家好,我是彭志流,今天代表台灣統治諮詢熱線協會發言接下來發言內容其實是熱線根據我們第一線的實務經驗還有同時我們最近也諮詢了非常多熟悉的第一線的校園性別業務的承辦人然後學校姓名會的委員,還有調查人財庫的夥伴"},{"start":5495.423,"end":5521.713,"text":"提供的從基層出發的意見那針對今天的討論提綱其實非常的多那針對提綱三性平課程的量能還有教學歧視的部分那我們協會在2020年和2024年分別做了兩次的同志學生調查報告那我們發現同志學生們其實在接觸到有關同志資訊的教科書還有教材的學生比例這兩次的調查其實沒有任何的變化"},{"start":5522.293,"end":5544.724,"text":"換句話說其實建議教育部應該要積極推動教科書跟教材還是要融入正面的同志資訊並且讓各科的老師可以融入教學那另外一件事情更重要的是應該明確表態並且支持基層的老師還有學校行政主管在做校園政策以及教學中納入同志議題應該要能夠保障他們的教學自主權"},{"start":5545.624,"end":5571.21,"text":"那第二個部分是針對大專院校的性平課程量人其實非常多的學校大學其實不一定有性別研究相關的學者那他們的性平課程可能很難開得出來事實上可能也沒有在校內的確沒有專業師資那實務上的確已經有孔同孔跨學者包裝成大學的性別研究專家在大專院校開設性別課程並且在校內成立性別教育中心"},{"start":5571.83,"end":5592.836,"text":"所以如果要增設大學的性別課程量能那我強烈建議應該要蒐集不同地域不同規模不同體質的大學他們的第一線的意見以免以避免用特定層級或特定規模的大學的想像來規劃政策那第三個部分是關於性平法第20條第一項涉及的校園裡的教學現場的歧視"},{"start":5594.776,"end":5617.799,"text":"本會建議修法可以修法納入性平法的校園性別事件定義之中也就是現在性平法現行的第三條但是同時也強烈建議在校園性別事件的整體設計制度上必須同時一併修法調整否則根據現行制度進行學校性平會的行政量絕對會崩潰第二個提綱關於增進不利處境的同志學生的學習環境"},{"start":5618.9,"end":5635.28,"text":"本會調查發現跨性別學生是在所有同志學生裡面面對著最嚴峻的校園敵意環境以及生存的經驗那強烈針對像性別友善廁所建議教育部不應該只追求一致單一的設置比例標準因為"},{"start":5636.121,"end":5662.769,"text":"其實每間大學的規模非常不一樣你用一致的標準其實很明顯不同所以應該設計不同體質跟規模的學校應該要有不同的標準同時應該給予學校實質的經費挹注那同時也建議教育部應該要檢視學校的校規政策督促學校改善具有針對同志學生帶來敵意甚至歧視效果的學校規定舉例來說學生的學號跟座號線型還是非常多男女的排列順序來排列"},{"start":5664.289,"end":5686.885,"text":"另外一個例子學生服役規定雖然現行已經有彈性的校規文字但許多學校尤其是小中高其實他們的校服訂購桿跟圖示還是照男生跟女生編排裙子永遠都在女學生的圖裡面然後另外學校裡面應該鼓勵學校成立可以支持同志學生的友善社團不一定要是同志學生社團但至少是可以討論性別平等議題的社團"},{"start":5688.206,"end":5713.023,"text":"再來針對回應提綱1跟提綱4校園性別事件的案件分流跟制度設計目前就是性平法第22條規定是知悉疑事事件就應立即通報所以前面有很多夥伴已經提到了在第一線造成案件的爆量而且其實很多小中高老師進行了防衛室或是卸責室的通報但卸責不是他們在卸責而是他們也擔心自己被"},{"start":5714.303,"end":5737.873,"text":"被投訴那建議應該針對情節輕微的生對生案件設置檢疫程序或調查程序並且引入修復式正義以避免目前常見的調查程序裡面尤其是針對輕微的生對生案件導致學生關心決裂二度創傷甚至強烈傾斜家長的意見忽視了未成年學生主體他們自己的意見跟感受"},{"start":5738.473,"end":5764.582,"text":"第二個部分制度設計裡面應該納入誣告及濫訴的可能性還有因為誣告跟濫訴帶來的行政成本誣告濫訴案件在實務上其實並非已經是少數特例那校園性別事件制度在某些時候持有所聞會聽到被當作不當或者是特定目的手段使用的案例這樣的案例在第一線其實偶爾都會聽到那也佔據了學校非常多的行政成本跟業務量"},{"start":5766.162,"end":5795.191,"text":"當然還有就是很多有時候甚至當事人會向明帶澄清那再來第三個部分如果是校園性別是性侵害的案件那尤其是十對生案那常常如果這樣的調查結果跟法院判決有出入的話常常會成為行為人向學校提起行政救濟的新的事證推翻了學校的行政調查那同時也讓被害人對學校行政調查的制度尤其就是所謂的性平調查制度產生不信任甚至質疑"},{"start":5795.971,"end":5816.283,"text":"那更複雜的是這單案件常涉及教師工作權所以其實這些行政調查或是行政救濟其實對基層小中高學校其實根本就是無法負擔的所以建議如果是涉及行政調查的校園失對生的性侵害案件也許應該先以司法調查優先那最後關於校園性別事件的制度的整體設計上"},{"start":5818.624,"end":5836.371,"text":"建議其實可以成立第三方公正的調查機構取代現行由各校性評會自行負責校園性別事件調查機制讓學校的性評會可以回歸教育跟輔導的本質那不是讓本職為教師輔導人員或學校行政人員的這些夥伴去成立行政調查事件"},{"start":5837.011,"end":5859.788,"text":"好 那提綱四 針對現行的強制通報制度現行的24小時強制通報其實對同志學生來說常常造成被迫出櫃的創傷許多同志未成年的學生在未準備好的情況下就被迫面對家長的質問身旁老師們的猜疑跟談問那同時瞬間引發同志學生在他們的家庭跟校園生活裡高度的危機跟身心壓力"},{"start":5860.569,"end":5876.564,"text":"同時也破壞學生對學校輔導體系的信任感那第二個部分就是強制通報制度其實也無視被害學生的意願其實對學生被害學生的身心復原其實歷程未必有幫助所以建議修正現行通報制度以兒少最佳利益出發檢討僵化規範通報實現已經家長執勤的狀況"},{"start":5880.387,"end":5898.689,"text":"同時應該在未經學生同意前嚴格維護當事人的隱私那第二個部分就是也同時建議修正目前通報制度裡面應該同時檢視疑似級通報衍生出來的實務問題就是剛剛提到的現在生對生的通報案件明顯的增加跟爆量應該免定通報的判斷準則好 講到這邊 謝謝"},{"start":5900.806,"end":5914.523,"text":"非常感谢台湾同志咨询热线协会的理事长所做的发言接下来我们有请大专校院性平委员会的承办人庄慧琪老师上台发言请"},{"start":5926.34,"end":5952.31,"text":"主席 各位委員 相關部會代表以及在場的民間夥伴大家好我是莊惠琪今天是以大專院校前性平業務承辦人的身份出席發言我重整我個人以及一些現職的性平承辦們的工作經驗和困境反映我們在性平業務現場的觀察與意見由於時間有限以下我就簡要陳述那詳細內容可以見我的發言稿"},{"start":5954.082,"end":5971.383,"text":"先回應提綱1和4關於效應性別事件和的分流和落實修復式正義在現行性平法的調查程序是一體適用的導致情節輕微的生對生性騷擾事件進入調查程序後反而對疑似行為的人造成標籤和傷害"},{"start":5972.845,"end":5993.184,"text":"不一定能夠確實幫助事件的雙方學生學習情感互動和理解彼此情緒感受建請由第三方公正單位進行情節輕重的案件分流針對情節輕微的深對深或者深對實案件設計檢疫程序引入修復式爭議協助學生理解感受同時減輕調查小組負擔"},{"start":5995.606,"end":6023.665,"text":"再来回应提纲二关于校园性别事件通报系统的性别栏位在现行通报还有校园性别事件的呈报系统只有男女二元的性别栏位选项在15中我曾经办理过跨性别学生遭言语歧视案系统却无法反映他的性别认同这对当事人并不尊重也不能确实反映事件的样态敬请教育部修正通报系统"},{"start":6025.806,"end":6048.564,"text":"性別認同欄位也請提供修正申請調查書裡面的性別欄位以供學校參考通用格式才能夠尊重當事人自主勾選的選擇對第一線的校安人員、性品承辦人員也可提升多元性別概念再來回應提綱三和四請強化學校性品會監督的責任與性品業務確實分工"},{"start":6050.385,"end":6078.533,"text":"《性平法》第六條明定學校性平會首要任務應該是統整學校各單位相關職員落實並檢視其實施成果在大專院校的性平會各校所屬成績不同的情況下使得各校性平會量能不宜建請應該明定強化性平會的監督職責要求學校各處市行政單位應該依全責分工避免讓性平會和承辦人為性別友善校園孤軍奮戰"},{"start":6080.632,"end":6097.879,"text":"再來學校獲領聘的性評會委員並不一定熟悉性評法規禁情依性評法第九條明定性評委員確實具備性評意識的機制並且針對非性別研究背景的教職員工代表提供一定時數的培訓課程以確實發揮性評會功能"},{"start":6103.14,"end":6132.077,"text":"再來第一線的性品承辦人在實務工作經驗上多數承受身心的高度壓力替代性創傷甚至人身安全威脅敬請完善鼓勵私立學校增補性品承辦人員的職職並建立專業的督導系統提供刑田培訓和在職人員的心理支持提升留任率也讓性品業務中也在性品業務中可以確保當事人的權益"},{"start":6133.607,"end":6157.732,"text":"再来回应提纲四关于校园性别事件的调查报告书标准教育部于2025年虽然有公布校园性别事件的回复填报系统推荐说明但是对学校做成的调查书内容的标准仿佛像是行政程序的风险控管而不是以事件当事人权益为优先考量"},{"start":6158.732,"end":6174.098,"text":"建請教育部信任調查委員的專業判斷以及性評會審議的結果和懲處建議避免留意表象的監督機制或者敬請提供施對生性騷擾案明確的懲處標準讓學校可以有所依循"},{"start":6176.195,"end":6192.966,"text":"再來關於性騷法與關於性品法與跟騷法的實務問題回應提綱5和6在實務中有多所學校已經收到警方沒有查明行為人身份只是懷疑是某校學生"},{"start":6193.746,"end":6212.118,"text":"就將應該依性騷法辦理的案件移轉給學校要求學校查出疑似行為人的身份盡請警政單位依法進行調查和確認行為人士學生身份後再進行案件移轉避免突征行政成本並影響案件當事人的權益"},{"start":6213.138,"end":6231.016,"text":"而跟騷案件的行為人在成年的行為人上面往往不只帶給被害人人身安全上的威脅甚至在實務上也對性品承辦人和專輔人員造成人身安全的疑慮跟騷行為人有更高的比例是需要精神醫療介入的"},{"start":6231.576,"end":6243.369,"text":"但多數學校缺乏相關資源敬請針對高風險案件的學生行為人建立跨專業的系統例如醫療、社福相關的合作機制避免讓校內的輔導人員單打獨鬥最後"},{"start":6246.613,"end":6263.408,"text":"我要說性平法的初衷應該是落實性平教育維護校園的性別友善空間和環境在前端積極預防才能避免校園性別事件的發生而高中以下的校園環境跟大專院校是不一樣的"},{"start":6264.409,"end":6282.75,"text":"一體適用的將性平法套用於所有學校導致學校各自遇到不同的難題和困境甚至在有一些情況下是治安難行的敬請各位委員、相關部會及單位嚴謹收集各方意見和實務經驗再進行性平法的修訂謝謝"},{"start":6284.906,"end":6300.172,"text":"好 非常的感谢大专校院新品委员会前业务承办人所提供的建言接下来我们邀请的是全国家长会联盟陶连生理事长上台发言 请不好意思"},{"start":6311.019,"end":6333.306,"text":"我是全國家長會長聯盟理事長陶連生就今天的公聽的提出我們的報告書內容在腰部份家長支持性別平等也支持校園應該成為一個沒有歧視沒有霸凌沒有性暴力沒有羞辱的安全環境家長肯定性別平等教育法"},{"start":6335.456,"end":6340.764,"text":"實施20年以來將性別平等有口號轉為實際的法律與教育實踐與歷史意義的貢獻"},{"start":6344.554,"end":6365.615,"text":"我們家長觀察到有三個缺口第一孩子並沒有朝向性健康的方向發展病知識不足性傳染風險上升數位性風險擴大第二孩子在情感與關係上出現兩極化一部分孩子不敢談不敢問不敢互動另一部分"},{"start":6366.581,"end":6380.84,"text":"孩子卻太早接觸太快越界缺乏風險意識第三家長被排除在課程教材與支持系統之外無法真正成為孩子的最穩定的後盾全國家長會長聯盟三項具體建議第一"},{"start":6381.621,"end":6402.917,"text":"落實清楚分離以孩子保護為核心的性健康教育第二把情感教育正式補起來納入課程與實質培訓第三建立家校合作機制包括課程說明教材透明家長諮詢回饋管道與親子教育資源家長應該是推動教育發展中最穩定的合作者"},{"start":6404.855,"end":6419.614,"text":"我們家長的立場是家長關心的是孩子是否懂得彼此尊重保護自己公平對待家長最關心的問題是有沒有在孩子最需要的地方發揮作用家長願意站出來教育補位家長參與學生保護"},{"start":6422.168,"end":6445.734,"text":"在這邊我們以家長團體來特別說明家長支持性別平等教育家長也支持孩子不受歧視不受傷害家長更支持校園裡每一個孩子不論其性別家庭背景性別氣質或性傾向都能被尊重被陪伴被公平對待我們家長觀察到的現場是"},{"start":6447.886,"end":6466.527,"text":"有一些第一個是失衡的現象第一種極端是孩子不敢談不敢問不敢互動第二個極端是太早接觸太快越界缺乏風險意識第三是我們應該要有的健康中間地帶卻似乎沒有真正的長出這樣一個中間地帶"},{"start":6468.12,"end":6494.005,"text":"我們家長們對三件事情共存的焦慮是第一個不敢建立關係還是怕說說話怕被誤解怕被貼標籤第二是不會處理關係孩子不知道怎麼樣拒絕別人不知道怎麼樣分手而這些真正缺乏的是關係素養的教育第三不懂得性健康對於身體界限比這些東西的瘀血不足孩子從網路上面吸收了片面錯誤的資訊"},{"start":6498.083,"end":6524.157,"text":"我們家常想說的一句話是現在孩子真的需要的是可操作的生活能力包括了尊重界限辨識風險處理情緒理解身體保護自己尊重他人三大核心的問題是第一個孩子沒有朝向性健康的方向發展性健康知識不足數位風險正在擴大知道與會做的落差請參閱這個圖表"},{"start":6529.462,"end":6557.743,"text":"核心問題二孩子學到的是焦慮不是能力發展呈現兩極化第一個是過度壓抑第二個是過早越界第三是兩極化的背後是教育缺口不是條文不足每人教他們怎麼問越界後有什麼樣的後果遇到問題可以找誰這些都是教育端的問題核心問題三家長被排除在課程與支持系統之外"},{"start":6559.073,"end":6566.208,"text":"家長不知道孩子在學什麼怎麼學家長被視為外行、主力甚至對立方缺乏制度化的家庭諮詢與回饋機制"},{"start":6569.025,"end":6592.948,"text":"我們家長角度的三類案例的觀察第一個是有男同學想問月經相關的問題就我怕笑不敢問真正的健康性健康的教育應該是讓孩子能夠放心的詢問放心討論這部分我們建議可以由教材與教學法的調整來處理案例B"},{"start":6593.905,"end":6622.045,"text":"女先生分手及情緒失控發送訊息跟圖片造成對方困擾以及另外一個學生Z拒絕任何的情感互動這一部分兩者都不是法律問題而是情感教育性健康為真正落地的結果然後制度若是只處理事後事件而不補上事前教育這個極端仍然會持續發生案例C家長被排除在外"},{"start":6623.328,"end":6650.014,"text":"家長W的孩子在學校回來跟家長說在學校教了性教育課程家長希望能夠在家中能夠延伸與孩子的對話可是卻沒有這樣的資源家長不是要審查導師的教學而是希望在家中能夠承接延伸同樣的對話組成良好的一個家校合作五國際作法對家長角度的啟示英國"},{"start":6651.56,"end":6664.762,"text":"RSH1將家長參與列為法定程序我們看到的啟示是家長參與不是干涉教育而是家教合作的制度保障這也降低了事後爭議與衝突的空間2芬蘭"},{"start":6665.919,"end":6687.642,"text":"分鄰漸進以健康素養為主軸的類型意義我們看到的啟示是新健康教育有其專業軌道推行過程必須是家校合作而非學校單方面推動澳洲的部分我們看到的啟示是課程可以透明家長可以檢視這不會降低專業而是讓專業獲得更多的支持我們共同的結論是"},{"start":6690.12,"end":6718.423,"text":"健康教育與情感教育必須獨立系統分靈的存在第二家長不是被動告示的對象而是被納入設計力環家校合作程度越高事後爭議與衝突越少我們我們對於公聽音會六大議題的家長回憶議題一我們是是支持同意教育的意義"},{"start":6721.482,"end":6738.111,"text":"可以幫助孩子學會同意是真的同意沒有壓迫不是出於不得已的時候然後我們希望能夠考慮案件的分類的必要性議題二 弱勢保護以上請參閱 謝謝"},{"start":6741.789,"end":6751.434,"text":"好謝謝全國家長會聯盟桃李市長的一個政策建議但因為他有提供書面資料我們會列入公報記錄謝謝好接下來我們邀請國教行動聯盟張文昌常務領事上台做發言"},{"start":6760.704,"end":6782.598,"text":"主席委員在座各位的先進大家早安大家好我是國教行動聯盟常務理事張文昌我同時也是退休的老師過去有10年擔任台北市性別平等教育委員會的委員還有大概7年大概有調查校園大概有40幾件的一個校園性別事件的經驗"},{"start":6784.079,"end":6807.353,"text":"那以下就國教行動面的觀點來提供大家修法的參考我們的主題是讓法律回歸底線讓教育主導前線目前的性別平等教育法他最主要的以校園來講其實他就是在做性別實踐的處理教育的這一端其實一直在做可是他就是根源"},{"start":6807.893,"end":6834.965,"text":"學校必須要尊重學校原來的各個學科各個領域這些學科領域都有它既有的實術它在做一句課綱我們的教育就是要一句課綱所以這個議題融入本來它就應該要尊重各個學科本位它不能夠跟各學科來打架所以這個就是根本上最大的一個問題所以它基本上在這樣的法不斷地強迫強制"},{"start":6836.886,"end":6857.705,"text":"加重刑責加強他的這個各樣的一個義務的時候他給學校越來越大的負擔可是根本上他沒有辦法回歸到教育的本質那我們的初中我們是保護學生這個還要免於恐懼免受這個侵害跟騷擾這個是大家的共識這個沒有問題那我們看到現在的校園現場"},{"start":6859.026,"end":6883.903,"text":"目前我大概粗估 例如以2024年來講總共有性騷擾的通報是20995件然後他大概會進入調查大概是6000多件成立的大概是3400多件大概以這樣的量能 學校一年 台灣的學校一年大概行政人員大概付出10萬個小時左右的一個成本工作的時數來處理這些案件"},{"start":6885.024,"end":6902.51,"text":"這個已經造成學校所謂的行政大逃亡這就是背後的一個很大的原因那資源排擠然後防衛效應就是現在只要一被通報我班上的學生有被性騷擾我知道我就只能通報我可以去輔導他嗎我可以去關心他嗎"},{"start":6903.47,"end":6931.172,"text":"都不行你就會被認為說你在自己自己在調查你違反性平法違反性平法我連去了解一下我可能都來不及因為24小時之內有通報不然我就被罰3萬到15萬這是學校校園現場的一個困境那法律越來越嚴孩子有沒有越來越健康呢現在梅毒現在這幾年是快速的攀升所以我們看到它本身來講有一些東西是應該要去做可是卻沒有做的"},{"start":6932.443,"end":6957.262,"text":"那我們看到這個性平法修法現在越來越強調了加重刑罰高密度的調查24小時強制通報那我們這個本來應該是以教育跟平等為主的一個法律現在變成包山包海的一個複合體我們看到這個圖就可以很明顯看得出來一個性平法要承載這麼多的東西所有的功能都全部集中在同一個法"},{"start":6957.822,"end":6974.01,"text":"那這個時候造成一個結果就是無法有效教導也沒辦法完全兼顧程序正義學校是一個教育場所學校不是一個司法機關什麼東西都馬上就要進入法律程序的時候學校是不符合學校教育的一個本質"},{"start":6975.117,"end":7002.037,"text":"那我們來看到性平法現在在它同時就要性平教育兼顧到這四個其中性健康教育跟情感教育它的本質上就不是性平教育要處理的性平教育是以法律比較從法律的角度來看是要保障人權比較是從這個角度來看跟學校現場的健康教育是在健體領域的健康教育裡面叫性健康教育它本質上就是要叫預防啊"},{"start":7002.957,"end":7023.039,"text":"叫健康促進 對不對這本來本質上就是不一樣的東西那你把它放在一起的時候就會打架可能是性平等在主導性教育或者是現在國內出了一些問題一些事件我們看到性健康教育很重要看到情感教育很重要可是我們卻把資源拿去做更多的校園性別事件處理"},{"start":7024.52,"end":7049.881,"text":"拿去做更多的法律宣導這樣子是不是有達到效果呢沒有所以這個部分我們就主張要分開然後我們看幾個例子第一個國文課堂引用經典文學例如說林傑明與屈傑維書詩經它裡面就是性別刻板印象因為那個年代他本來的觀念就是這樣那這個時候學生就會提呼質疑可能有家長會提呼質疑質疑以後他就"},{"start":7051.606,"end":7055.56,"text":"啟動調查一旦家長學生申請調查他就要調查"},{"start":7056.448,"end":7081.883,"text":"然後第二個師對生涉及公益一定要調查這就是目前的規定那我老師可能講出一句話他學生要的是一個道歉那你不讓他去和解讓老師覺得我知道了我以後不會再講這句話了對不起這事件就結束了那你一定要啟動調查照三個師對生三位調查委員都是外聘這樣一個程序走下來至少三四萬塊跑不掉"},{"start":7082.903,"end":7098.595,"text":"這都是我們國家的資源我們的教育資源都這樣用掉了缺乏溝通緩衝教育付出教育代價這樣一個下來請問這個老師他還有熱忱去教學嗎他如果遇到一件兩件他還有熱忱去教學嗎"},{"start":7100.084,"end":7126.615,"text":"我們可以了解一下校園的問題所以他看到現在問題定義模糊寬鬆反衛性教學24小時強制通報壓力究責恐懼自保那這個校園變成準司法化最大的受害人其實就是學生第二個缺乏分流國八學生跟同學講說你穿這樣很像女生那家長就要求性平通報然後就要開始就要處理最後認定情節輕微就輔導你繞了一大圈回來還是要輔導"},{"start":7128.904,"end":7149.582,"text":"所以最後我們來提一下第三個這個診斷就是說這個孩子是需要幫助的可是你卻對他處罰其實是這樣然後我們看到國際這四個完整的報告大家可以參閱就是我們有那個QR Code有完整的報告"},{"start":7151.741,"end":7166.6,"text":"國際上就會看到這些這樣的做法跟台灣其實都不太一樣然後我們做幾個修法的主張第一個是要獨立出來讓國家課綱跟家庭教育這個部分性健康教育跟情感教育要獨立出來獨立出來第二個"},{"start":7168.502,"end":7184.492,"text":"改善目前的缺失案件應該做分級跟分流讓真正重大案件可以正式處理輕微的案件可以用修復跟溝通的方式去處理然後案件要做大概做這三個主要的分流好"},{"start":7184.932,"end":7205.171,"text":"那我們對於這個公聽會的一個回應就是支持這個修積極同意的模式然後課程師資在性健康跟情感教育能夠拉出來然後善意的通報保護然後跟少法跟嫌階跟高風險處置讓教育法律回歸底線教育主導前線以上的報告 謝謝"},{"start":7206.425,"end":7222.41,"text":"非常感谢国教行动联盟张文昌常务领事所做的政策建言接下来我们有请全宗教产业工会法规团协部的黄慧珍主任上台做发言请"},{"start":7229.692,"end":7249.141,"text":"主席 各位與眾來賓大家好 我是黃惠珍 群眾教育法國團約部的主任今天公聽會進行到這邊 我聽到前面有很多教育團體的同業有關於教育現狀跟面對這個問題上面的困境本人也感同身受 而且大部分贊同"},{"start":7249.941,"end":7268.21,"text":"但是這也告訴我們說隨著性平法的實施跟中間過程非常多的修訂然後每一次修訂按量卻不斷的暴增的結果讓我們作為教育的同業們都必須要有一個認知就是我們已經回不去了"},{"start":7268.93,"end":7283.561,"text":"就是過去那老師有絕對的權威在教學專業當中完全不容質疑的社會狀況是不會再出現了所以老師們一直在擔心的那個免於被告的恐懼這件事情可能無法存在"},{"start":7284.181,"end":7305.196,"text":"而且不會是短時間可以解決的我覺得這是第一個作為教育同業我們自己身陷在這個職場當中必須要有一個基本認識這是我的第一個呼籲第二個就有關於這個性平教育的這個課綱的一個規範這20多年來我們看到的其實不是規範不足而是落實的不夠確實"},{"start":7306.617,"end":7329.98,"text":"所以他導致案量增加的原因是明顯的看到的就是行為人跟被行為人有了巨大的觀念跟社會行為的落差那這個落差要怎麼樣來彌平就必須要透過教育行政單位的調查甚至民事 刑事方面的告訴最後有一個終局裁判 才讓大家都可以閉嘴然後都可以接受一個"},{"start":7331.161,"end":7335.948,"text":"恐怕哪怕只是暫定的結論他才叫一個總結所以我就要講到說在現在的教育現場當中我們除了抱怨以及懷念過去美好平靜的歲月之外具體來說我們現在可以做什麼"},{"start":7347.045,"end":7375.049,"text":"所以因為時間有限所以我就以我自己本身是高中跟高職的教師公會的代表那確實也是這裡面其實按量最高比例的一個教育的這個層級裡面來看首先我們看到在現行的108課綱當中正因為性平法已經實施了20多年所以在現行的108課綱當中高中裡面的性平教育它不是一個課程它是一個融入式的教育"},{"start":7375.589,"end":7395.443,"text":"好於是就出現了一個除了學校要處理性平案件的學務人員他們可能很有自覺或是被規範比如說校長學務主任跟校安人員這些相關的這些組長要去強制培訓之外他們有一些他們KPR去強制培訓之外在校園當中誰應該去受性平教育的嚴禧"},{"start":7396.724,"end":7411.127,"text":"就現行的狀況之下是沒有足夠的經費跟沒有足夠的待客人次當中我比如說我一個物理老師一個數學老師我想要去參加性別平等的教育的研習請問我有資格去嗎"},{"start":7412.128,"end":7441.528,"text":"學校給我工價嗎學校給我排帶嗎可是老師講正是這些老師比起我自己歷史科老師社會科老師更有需要在我們過去甚至在師培課程甚至在自己的所有養成教育當中都缺乏的東西他更需要去受訓但是在地方政府的經費跟這個所謂的工價排帶等等這些很細微的外面的人根本不知道的這一些小細節當中怎麼去突破"},{"start":7442.268,"end":7459.55,"text":"那這上很重要就是資源的投入以及很明定的比如說我們可不可以每一個地方政府每一年給每一個學校比如說我自己所正教的學校是一個新北四地的高中我們的資源就明明比同樣是直轄市的台北市要少很多"},{"start":7460.211,"end":7477.795,"text":"那可不可以在每一個地方政府裡面給我們每一間學校每一年有固定的定額經濟跟固定的待課人次讓多少老師去受訓因為受訓的結果就是我們可以救援減少案量從源頭來解決不要等他出事了之後再來做這個再來做調查等等"},{"start":7481.216,"end":7503.179,"text":"所以我接下來就要講剛剛有一位這個性平教育的協會的副理事長講的我覺得非常好就是性平教育是一個專業素養而不是道德勸說可是光這一句話其實還不是我們的社會共識至少在現在高中教育當中都不是因為所謂的融入教育就是我們有19項融入議題"},{"start":7504.64,"end":7530.293,"text":"那19下怎麼融入 就是每一顆都該有 每一顆其實都沒有但是性平教育又確實是一個法律的你不到60分是會犯法的我自己是教歷史的 歷史0分都不會怎麼樣啊人生照樣活得好好的啊可是性平教育0分的話 我會坐牢坐到死啊所以這個 大家的這個認識很顯然跟"},{"start":7532.954,"end":7545.663,"text":"這法規效應跟大家現在社會上的認識是落差太大了好 所以我想要今天正式呼籲一個在學校裡頭 物理不會問物理老師歷史不會問歷史老師請問性平不會問哪一科老師"},{"start":7547.253,"end":7564.785,"text":"就個人有各的說法國文老師具有他的教學專業教學本位我國文課可以這樣講數學老師具有他的教學本位他又從另外一種講法那誰是誰非呢是不是應該有一個如果他這麼重要的話是不是我們應該有一個性平教育的第二章叫實證"},{"start":7566.406,"end":7594.887,"text":"然后一定的学分之后这个老师具有教育专业的权威学校有关性平问题请来问我大家不要自己想自己对自己觉得怎么样那到最后到法院去到行政调查当中的时候都站不住脚这是我第一个具体的呼吁第二个就是有关于刚刚很多伙伴们都讲到的小案大办的问题在我们高中小案大办最大的麻烦是家长"},{"start":7595.902,"end":7609.309,"text":"高中裡面有16到18歲的兩小無猜條款兩小無猜都一切和解不過就是分手的問題 情感交流的問題家長不依不饒要有行事跟民事的訴訟誰阻止得了他"},{"start":7610.302,"end":7637.918,"text":"那老實講 我們老師 絕大多數的老師也全部都是家長這個事情是我們非常可以理解的那於是在面對這種侵屍還有或者是有一些重大的案件比如說今天婷剛講到的重大嚴重的跟騷它已經不是教育行政可以處理的事情必須要引進刑法 必須要引進民法的時候那麼學校裡面有什麼樣的處理工具可以來解決這個問題"},{"start":7639.139,"end":7665.339,"text":"家長要告老師反過來其實老師也可以告家長如果有真的很機車的家長的時候可是我們在教員當中非常避談這一下那這一個其實是我們在現在民主社會人人有權利各個人需要救濟的情況下時候我們需要建立一個引入警力跟取引入適當的法務的SOP的程序教育部應該從這方面來救援解決問題這是我的具體建議 謝謝"},{"start":7669.883,"end":7682.983,"text":"好 非常的感谢全中教产黄主任给我们非常具体的政策建议接下来我们邀请的是陈培宇委员上台做发言"},{"start":7686.701,"end":7709.017,"text":"好謝謝主席我想echo一下甘黃主任我在學校是教國文學生來問我性評我可能也只能回答到60分確實是一個很痛苦的困境大家好我是裴宇先謝謝今天與會的所有專家學者還有謝謝教育部的次長親自出席那當然要先謝謝吳麗華委員根據性評法我們排了今天的公聽會確實我們看到第一線有非常多困境都需要協助一起解決"},{"start":7709.857,"end":7730.956,"text":"那我们办公室过去呢从教师学生家庭内的性品教育谈到所谓校园性别事件的第三方机构成立的可能让学校的老师还有学校行政的困境可以解决刚刚也有人说到还有现在我们面临全面性教育落实在现场的一些困境我想先跟大家报告一个数字我们看到儿福联盟在去年12月"},{"start":7732.177,"end":7747.745,"text":"對於全台灣的兒童對做全面性教育的現況調查報告我們確定教育部有沒有掌握到這份報告看到這份報告的全文我們非常的震驚我們以為性別教育推動這麼多年學生們對於所謂的性教育的知識應該要"},{"start":7749.466,"end":7768.913,"text":"相對比較好比起我們小的時候但沒有想到我們看到的數字是近六成的學童答題不及格也就是在11題的性教育基本知識當中答對不到7題也就是11題他答對不到7題的情況下有六成的學生是不及格而全部答對的學生只佔2%"},{"start":7770.353,"end":7786.964,"text":"我們當然不認為這個數字可以代表全台灣學生的狀況也沒有認為這個就代表全面性教育的不足但是從這些抽樣的狀況裡面我們可以看到學生們對性知識的嚴重不足其實會影響到後續我們要講到的第一線的現場狀況"},{"start":7789.125,"end":7806.726,"text":"當他們性知識不足的時候我們問孩子們說那你們知識從哪裡來大部分的學生都認為自己是從學校的老師或者是教科書或者是爸爸媽媽家長身邊的大人但是將近50%的孩子告訴我們他們的性知識是來自於網路"},{"start":7808.171,"end":7826.449,"text":"我觉得听到网络两个字大家就会非常害怕因为可能夹杂着正确跟错误的讯息甚至可能是更多的错误讯息但是问到学生对于校园内传授的性知识的印象大部分的学生是表示知识的印象有点模糊有点记得但是不是那么确定"},{"start":7827.049,"end":7844.554,"text":"所以如果把这个对于性知识的落实到日常的生活当中我们看到另外一个困境就是例如说对于身体界限的不明白或者是对于性别观念恋爱观念的模糊例如说有小孩说大人摸我的头是一种友善的表现应该没什么问题吧"},{"start":7845.074,"end":7866.905,"text":"或者是有38.7%的学生没有认真想过在恋爱当中的身体界限而这样的结果我们会担心如果这些孩子没有办法认识到什么样的行为是对的什么样的行为是可以的当他们面对一些不当的大人对他们做出的行为或者是他在恋爱中对上对他做出的不当行为就错失了保护自己的机会哦"},{"start":7867.325,"end":7887.14,"text":"所以我们发现如果有这么多学生将近24%的学生认为自己已经想要谈恋爱了而23%的学生已经开始谈恋爱这都是现在孩子们的日常而当这样的日常已经成为事实的时候不管是性别平等教育或是全面性教育这件事情本来就是我们大人要积极协助孩子的部分哦"},{"start":7887.68,"end":7910.31,"text":"因為孩子的生活經驗不足他們也不確定他們在網路上所學的或是大人所教的大人所願意跟他們分享的到底是不是真的可以保護他們所以如果從戀愛這一題往下看我們看到這幾年其實不是今年的報告前兩年的報告我們就看到一個很大的困境這五年當中15歲到24歲青少年沒讀感染的人數翻倍從2020年的938人到2025年的1892人"},{"start":7916.033,"end":7942.042,"text":"不只梅毒有這個問題連靈病也有類似的狀況但反過來艾滋呢艾滋的數字是下降的也就是確實在這麼多年性別平等教育的情況底下還有大家對於艾滋去汙名化的努力之下很多人確實對於理解艾滋防治艾滋是有概念的但反觀我們過去可能覺得好像孩子們比較不會碰到的梅毒跟靈病"},{"start":7942.782,"end":7971.176,"text":"却在年龄层往下移15岁到24岁这么多我们研究相关问题有几个可能的原因当然是第一个色情资讯垂手可得我觉得面对网路原生世代的小孩这已经是我们每一个大人的挑战我们不可能全面禁绝的情况之下如何用这些网路上的素材跟孩子们做积极的对话跟讨论我认为这是我们大人的功课也就是说我们现在甚至看到很多困境是"},{"start":7971.736,"end":7994.332,"text":"这些知识跟这些内容在网络上比比皆是更不要说还有所谓交友软体对于孩子们来说这也是一个很重要的social network如果这个是很重要设计人际观社会互动人际网络的话从交友软体也好从这些网络上的资讯也好我们如何确保可以积极的协助他们再来就是关于性病的污名化这件事情"},{"start":7995.333,"end":8011.389,"text":"我們看到有相關的醫生告訴我們很多孩子在第一次被發現感染性病之後他可能不願意或是不想不敢害怕再回去就診所以可能相關性病的資料就繼續變在那邊卡在那邊"},{"start":8011.909,"end":8036.608,"text":"然后如果他没有回诊但是他如果还是持续有性行为的话他当然就极度容易造成高度的传染而这件事情确实在全面性教育里面我们觉得是重要的但是如果你去问身边的大人大家对于性病的污名化难道不严重吗我认为非常的严重所以这也是阻碍了孩子们在得到性病之后不愿意回诊不愿意寻求大人协助一个很重要的困境哦"},{"start":8037.108,"end":8055.233,"text":"好这是另外一个性病的问题再来我们也看到很多第一线的老师在推性别平等教育这么多年之后非常积极的努力不管是刚黄老师说的融入自己的科目里面或者是单独的性别平等课程里面努力的想要跟孩子分享非常多资讯跟正确的知识但是"},{"start":8056.053,"end":8081.639,"text":"可能就會被家長誤判例如說在2017年就曾經有老師以假的洋具還有保險套進行性別平等教育但是卻被家長檢舉說這是公然猥褻我要說這對老師來說情何以堪但還好當時檢察官的調查後是不予起訴可是我認為相關的案件已經對現場老師的教學造成很大的震盪跟干擾很多老師寧可"},{"start":8082.779,"end":8105.883,"text":"後續就選擇更保守更消極的態度面對性別平等教育或是面對全面性教育這件事情所以我認為教育部今天次長親自出席我們希望把相關的資訊帶給教育部不論是全面性教育或性別平等教育甚至我們剛剛講到的性病其實都是現在的孩子們所面臨的第一線的挑戰而這些挑戰當然也會影響到身邊的大人"},{"start":8106.463,"end":8132.48,"text":"那再来我要说大专院校的部分因为可能很多人会聚焦在中小学是关于教育的部分但是大专院校的性平运作我们现在发现有很大的问题例如说我们办公室简单访问了已经离职性平会承办人告诉我们现场的一些问题第一个大专院校性平会面对最大的问题是钱不够所以人留不住大部分的大专院校是不愿意把预算人事费拨给性平会"},{"start":8136.783,"end":8157.143,"text":"承办人也就是半个的意思就是说他同时要做别的业务但是要这样的人力扛起一所学校的性平相关的工作当然留不住人才所以在相关的调查或是处理程序这个承办人承担了最大的压力他可能就是一个人要面对很多很多人甚至他可能就不小心成为当事人的剑把"},{"start":8157.523,"end":8180.661,"text":"他成为了要服务很多人的情绪劳动所以我要说目前大专院校里面没有对于性别性别评等事件承办人的支持系统而这些职业创伤也要这些承办人自行来面对还有我知道教育部虽然会办很多性评会承办人的培训跟研习可是这些研习对于已经在现场劳动过度过度的承办人来说"},{"start":8181.862,"end":8210.934,"text":"時間可能很難搭得上甚至相關的內容是他們的需求而當他們的過度勞動問題沒有被解決的時候其實再多的培訓跟研習對他們來說只是壓垮他們的另外一根稻草所以我要說現行的性平平等教育法26條雖然規定性平安行為人的懲處但是方式並沒有到很強制再加上學校的人力行政人力不足很難以追蹤也沒有相關的講師費沒有相關的教材導致矯正的成果"},{"start":8211.254,"end":8213.855,"text":"这是我们后续会继续努力的谢谢主席"},{"start":8236.087,"end":8245.87,"text":"好非常的感谢陈培宇委员的发言接下来我们邀请暖暖协会王之文主任上台做发言请"},{"start":8255.912,"end":8277.404,"text":"各位委員 各界先進夥伴大家好我是農產商社會的代表王之文我們是一個由性暴力倖存者也就是俗稱的被害人所發起以及營運的互助跟倡議的組織所以因此我今天會主要以被害人的角度來提供觀點跟建議那還請各位先進多多指教"},{"start":8277.984,"end":8296.852,"text":"那性平凡法實施這麼多年來我們雖然完善了程序但是倖存者的復原需求是否落實呢仍是一個缺口那我們主張修法上應該要用性暴力的定義還有支持系統法源來做回應那以下我會針對提綱一跟提綱四分四個子題來提出建議"},{"start":8297.552,"end":8321.957,"text":"那第一在修改意願模式的部分實務上呢熟人性侵佔性侵案件八到九成那校園內的案件更是這個樣子那熟人性侵常常會用信任、依賴或是脫落性因此被害人可能對於性暴力的認知的意識還有他行使權利法律的權利的意識都可能是不足的所以法律不應該只是看有沒有違反意願"},{"start":8322.597,"end":8350.436,"text":"那關於現在的刑法要件直接平移到行政法的適用上可能會出現一些困境第一點是在要件判斷的落差上面那倖存者在調查詢問的時候如果他陳述的是我不願意進行這個性行為在刑事上面這樣會不適用權勢性侵的構成要件那就要轉用一般性侵的要件來處理這樣反而會難以成案"},{"start":8350.936,"end":8372.692,"text":"所以如果這樣子將刑法的要件直接平移到行政法上那我們調查小組當中的法律專家應該要如何判斷呢那如果用刑法的要件來直接判斷的話下面性侵案件的被害人可能會陷入一種自我懷疑體制會告訴他說你的創傷並不符合法律對性暴力的定義這是第一點"},{"start":8373.152,"end":8389.314,"text":"那第二點在身對身的案件的一個灰色的地帶舉例來說這是真實發生的那在16歲已經滿16歲的高中生的情況發生了身對身的情緒勒索在情緒勒索下被害人他同意發生性行為"},{"start":8389.935,"end":8406.582,"text":"可是這種狀況是沒有辦法用現行的刑法性侵或權勢性侵的方式來處理的那這種情境我們的行政法能夠如何因應呢所以我們會建議說新評教育法它作為行政法不應該是被動的綁定刑法的違反意願的定義"},{"start":8407.162,"end":8430.991,"text":"我們會建議引入積極同意或是修正強制的模式尤其我們要轉向權力脈絡的實質的審查利用權力信任脆弱性等等施行侵犯這應該要納入我們的判斷當中才能夠涵蓋刑法現在漏接的灰色地帶回應我們性侵實際上發生的情況那在第二點分流跟簡化程序的部分針對剛剛提到的"},{"start":8433.534,"end":8455.311,"text":"從上一點討論的當中我們認為行政法並不應該是等同刑法教育輔導的功能應該要更勝於單純的懲罰所以分流的目的想要提醒大家說我們應該是引進更彈性的教育介入而不僅是為了懲罰那第二點就是希望可以預防二次傷害那情節輕微要如何界定呢"},{"start":8457.072,"end":8479.94,"text":"這一個提問是想提醒說我們要避免讓被害人在調查跟審核的過程當中可能會產生一種我這樣的事件性騷擾或性侵的事件算是輕微嗎足夠輕微嗎我應該被這樣分流嗎那這樣制度性的篩選也有可能對被害人造成另外一種二次傷害這是一個提醒那第三點"},{"start":8480.88,"end":8496.892,"text":"第三個在被害人跟保護與照顧的層面上面在我們的實務觀察上我們發現被害人常常會面臨嚴重的資訊不對等的情況性平法執行的時候缺乏了主責的社工去協助說明"},{"start":8497.492,"end":8517.943,"text":"那我们也曾经有得知说被害人因为书面通知的外观没有适当的处理所以在违背他意愿的情况下他就承受了让他受害的事件被他人得知的风险所以我们会建议三点第一个是在资讯对等的部分可以参考卫福部性侵害被害人权益保障事项说明教育部"},{"start":8519.223,"end":8543.113,"text":"應該函班全國統一的一個白話版的權益說明清單還有程序的流程圖讓校園的倖存者都可以掌握他們程序的自主權第二個在程序的隱私上面應該要增訂書面通知去識別化以及說包含外觀也要避免直接辨識能夠是性品事件來維護倖存者的隱私安全感"},{"start":8543.713,"end":8572.114,"text":"最後第三點在專業的對等上我們認為說性暴力是一個自主權上面受侵害的創傷所以我們期待雖然剛有聽到很多先進提到就是量能不足的問題啦但我們還是期待說調查人員能夠具備創傷知情的知能來回應受害者的自主的需求來減少程序當中的二次傷害那最後在強制通報制度的部分"},{"start":8572.955,"end":8591.37,"text":"我们在实务观察上面发现现行的强暴搜索现行的强制通报制度有一个困境这里分享一个案例有一位大专院校的幸存者他已经满20岁成年了那他因为实习的状况所以想要寻求辅导"},{"start":8592.251,"end":8612.329,"text":"來去避免說他性侵害的性創傷的狀況會影響到他實施的情況他並沒有想要進入任何的程序但因為強制通報的關係所以他被迫進入了他完全不想要進入的調查程序在這樣程序上被推著走的狀況讓他承受了很強大的惡質傷害"},{"start":8613.69,"end":8640.043,"text":"所以我們會建議也許可以討論通報制度以外能不能夠有例外的空間呢尤其是針對成年揭露的狀況應該要以被害人本身的意願還有諮商 輔導 教育等等為優先我們可以討論是否可以調整成年後24小時強制通報的這樣僵化的要求建立以復原為中心的一個通報的配套方式"},{"start":8640.643,"end":8666.935,"text":"我們不希望保護學生的制度最後卻變成降低學生求助意願的門檻那以上四個主題的建議如上那我們暖暖商圈協會主張的是我們修法性平法不應該只是關注處罰也要關注復原我們期待制度是確保倖存者在程序當中有選擇權有自主權那透過制度的補強可以獲得正向的社會連結經驗才能夠讓校園真的成為一個能夠承接傷害"},{"start":8670.316,"end":8687.788,"text":"也可以支持复原的场域好谢谢大家谢谢暖暖协会王主任提供的建言接下来我们邀请的是性平学生倡议连线倡议工作组的召集人邵思宇同学请上台发言"},{"start":8688.717,"end":8710.495,"text":"各位委員關心性別平等議題的夥伴們大家好我是性別平等學生倡議連線的代表邵思宇也是大學性平會的學生委員很感謝今天可以在此分享大專學生對性平法修正的觀點在詳細說明之前我想要先統整連線的六大核心建議一 性侵害定義英語刑法脫鉤並引入積極統一或修正強制模式來回應校園的詮釋問題二 生理駕入法"},{"start":8713.157,"end":8736.071,"text":"增設伴侶賠產價 並完善對不利處境學生的其他制度性協助三 明定高中與大學性平課程實數與落實方式並將20條不當教學之處理程序正式入法四 提升性平會專業量能 包括明定性平會承辦的人力定額並專職化 並提升委員的多元性五 以韓式將跟騷 家暴 妨害性隱私罪 整合進行騷擾 確保不漏接"},{"start":8738.092,"end":8761.088,"text":"六 針對當事人的教育輔導應放寬門檻並盤點現有做法和改善經費來源以下我將依序說明為何提出這些建議那議題一 校園性別事件的性侵害是否應引入不同的界定模式雖然校園性別事件處理是獨立於刑事的它也是用更寬鬆的優勢證據法則但目前性品會對性侵害的定義就是像剛剛有提到的它和刑法是掛鉤的"},{"start":8761.889,"end":8791.852,"text":"就会产生什么问题呢刑法中仍以违反意愿为中心导致实务上行政法处理会受刑法影响被害人需要向调查小组证明说对方的行为违反我的意愿否则就会被推定为同意然而校园中存在许多权势不对等的关系若被害人处于不平等关系中因恐惧信赖或信任无法自主地表达他的意愿实务上就会被性平法认定就很难被认定性侵害我们认为性平法竟然不属于刑法体系而且它应该要具有教育功能"},{"start":8792.212,"end":8805.844,"text":"告訴大家性行為必須是自主且平等的條件下積極合一的性因此我們建議教育部依據以下的方向研議入法比照美國教育法第九條將性平法的性侵害定義與刑法脫鉤採用更符合校園脈絡的審議標準"},{"start":8807.325,"end":8828.869,"text":"並在這個基礎上採納積極同意或修正強制的模式來修正定義也就是說把審查重心從原本的被害人是否有說不轉向Only Yes Being Yes的積極同意模式也就是行為人是否有取得對方積極自主的同意或關注詮釋模式的修正強制模式也就是行為人是否利用不平等的權利來實施侵犯"},{"start":8829.369,"end":8845.909,"text":"那关于第二题我们认为性贫乏中针对不利出境学生的保障缺口有三点需要改善首先是生理假目前性贫乏并未纳入生理假导致各校的乱象重生而且每个月一天的限制也无法提供足够的支持就很多人其实会痛到可能是两天以上的"},{"start":8846.229,"end":8864.071,"text":"那我们建议明定学生每个月可请生理假两天并且不得限制请假之间要间隔几天也不能因此扣减成绩那第二是关于怀孕学生和其伴侣的保障目前仅规定就是学校应该要维护他们的受教权但我们也认为应该要延伸保障到他的伴侣跟配偶"},{"start":8864.451,"end":8890.444,"text":"然後提供至少7年的賠償假7天的賠償假然後促進平等和落實支持那第三是關於多人性別的不利處境學生應該落實制度支持包括民定 主管機關與學校必須要主動調查學生的經驗建立學生參與的機制並實質提供設置性別友善窗口改善軟硬體設施等必要的協助讓所有人都可以好好上學接著是第三題"},{"start":8891.104,"end":8915.709,"text":"目前18條中對高中以及專科學校的規範比較模糊不清那大學端也僅規定要廣開性別研究相關課程但我們認為不應該現在研究這樣子的學術課程應該要貼合大學生的經驗跟需求因此我們建議應該要增訂高中職性平課程時數每學期至少4個小時並明定國教端應該要建立性平會與課派會的協調機制以落實融入課程這件事情"},{"start":8916.129,"end":8937.043,"text":"以及大学端应该要修改为广开性别相关课程而非研究那每学期至少要开设一门性别专题通识并由中央制定课程任列资源分配和简核的办法另外针对就是二十条的不当教学情境虽然教育部已有含释指明这一类违反性平反二三章规定的事件应准用性别事件的调查和称除流程"},{"start":8937.423,"end":8960.445,"text":"但我們觀察到一個資訊斷層也就是學校的性評會和性評委員普遍不清楚這個機制學生更無從得知就算遇到不當教學情境時也不知道該怎麼籌注導致這個申訴管道難以發揮實效因此我們建議教育部應加強宣導甚至提升其位階正式納入性評法或是棋子法如防制準則然後明確化不當教學準用就是性別事件處理的法源避免因為"},{"start":8961.205,"end":8968.333,"text":"資訊落差然後漏接學生的訴求那接著是第四題我們想分成承辦人、量能和委員多元性專業性兩點來談那性平法剛剛稍早有提到就是它現在只規定到專人要專人處理業務可是實際上校園的經驗是多數學校並沒有專職的人員"},{"start":8977.082,"end":9003.849,"text":"然後也是用其他的單位來兼任然後人數常常不足那案量也會帶來壓力導致他們的勞動處境長期不佳然後流動率高那性評會也變成是一個失去他的教育性質然後變成一個事件處理委員會因此針對這部分我們建議應該要與性評法中明定由專職人員處理業務並參考學輔法以學生人數規模來設定最低要有幾位承辦人如每六千位學生應該要設一名專職人員等那至於調查委員 性評委員我們認為應該要"},{"start":9005.029,"end":9034.227,"text":"就是在他们的性评委员要在就任前然后签署一个性评承诺书并得由学校公告其参与理念落实现行规定的应该要具备性评意识那针对大专校院学生委员比例应达四分之一并建议纳入性评专家委员让决策的过程更透明那关于前述建议吴委员这边已经有提案然后但还没排入委员会那我们抛砖引玉的建议跟吴委员相同然后大家可以查阅讲那针对第五题就是性别事件与跟骚法的衔接我们观察到虽然校园和"},{"start":9034.747,"end":9050.637,"text":"校園跟騷通常可以用性騷擾來處理但第一線調查委員有時會把跟騷理解成一個行為面向忽略到跟騷本身就是性騷擾的本質和它成立必須要有性別相關的要件導致有些案件它會被認定是跟騷行為但是不被構成性騷擾"},{"start":9051.417,"end":9077.515,"text":"那我们参考美国教育法第九条的法治那它就是尽可能罗列各种性别歧视和暴力那又性骚扰的内涵那这些问题如果对应到我国法上就是包含家暴包括准用伴侣的这种亲密关系暴力跟骚、妨害性隐私和不实性影像罪那为了让学生知道他使用司法救济时也可以透过学校性评会走行政法管道避免漏接事件我们建议教育部可以以含释去解释说跟骚、家暴、妨害性隐私都属于性骚扰的范畴"},{"start":9078.015,"end":9107.311,"text":"那最後是第六題如何有效提供輔導處遇那我們觀察到現行的困境包含兩點一個是校園性別事件若沒有成立就無法有後續的處遇以及就算事件成立懲處包含要上8個小時的性評課程可是一對一的課程費用非常的昂貴然後許多學校他其實面臨了經費拮据的窘境導致難以發揮實質的教育輔導功能因此我們建議應在性評法中明定就算不懲處性評會人可以主動向學生提供相關的性評培力資源依照其意願使用以及第二"},{"start":9107.591,"end":9126.398,"text":"教育部櫻盤點個校性評會的性評課程落實情況並改善經費來源 謝謝好 非常謝謝我們性評學生倡議學會的召集人所做的發言那接下來我們要邀請台灣EDU教育協會的倡議專員馮雨潔來做上台發言 請"},{"start":9133.711,"end":9156.271,"text":"謝謝主席然後各位與會先進還有各位關心性的平衡教育的夥伴 大家早安 大家好然後我是ADIL今天的代表余潔然後我現在同時也是一名高中生ADIL是一群由高中生還有大學生組成的學生團體對於我們來說學生的聲音能不能被聽見是我們最在意的最核心的議題所以很謝謝今天吳麗華委員邀請有很多學生團體一起與會發表我們的觀點"},{"start":9160.054,"end":9175.858,"text":"那首先呢想要先針對提綱二對於不利學生處境的權益保障我們今天的發言想要聚焦於月經友善校園這個議題在2023年的時候在多方的推動下教育部的友善提供多元生理用品的政策正式上路"},{"start":9176.398,"end":9200.328,"text":"台湾也成为亚洲第一个在校园捐全面提供生理用品的国家这样政策的目的是为了让所有在校园中可能刚好月经来然后身旁没有生理用品的学生不会因为这样子而感到慌乱或是担心也让无法负担生理用品的经济不利处境的学生可以获得足够的支持但是这个利益良善的政策需要被好好落实才能达到前述的这些目的"},{"start":9201.128,"end":9227.789,"text":"在2023、2024年的時候有想紅帽這個民間團體針對這項政策對各級院校的學生還有教職人進行調查 其中發現全國這樣子滿意度在滿分五分的情況下只有3.1分這樣的分數可以看見就是這個實質的狀況還有很大的進步空間然後其中最多人反映的問題包括以下幾點其一是生理用品的取用不易 門檻很高 像是他的放置"},{"start":9228.249,"end":9253.266,"text":"地点可能很单一之后像是学务处啊或是健康中心这种单一的定点而不是可能比较可进行较高的厕所而且这样政策如果以救急作为主要的目的的话对学生来说其实相对来说是不太便利的那另外呢同时也有很多学生反应需要学生自己开口询问甚至签名登记才能向老师领取这样的生理用品那对于有些学生来说这是一个很高的门槛"},{"start":9254.454,"end":9282.812,"text":"那另外呢还有常会面临到数量的不足未能及时普中以及品相过于单一的问题例如说可能只会提供单一固定尺寸的卫生棉比较没有像是类似于棉条啊护垫裤型卫生棉或者其他多元尺寸的生理用品另外我们建议教育部应该持续去检讨这项政策上路以来这项生理用品定点发放的可进性是试图的去增加摆放的地点同时呢应该去进一步的检视这个"},{"start":9284.092,"end":9298.337,"text":"生理用品方法的多元性雖然今天討論的是性平教育法但是期待後續教文委員會在審議學校衛生法的時候也可以把這樣子生理用品共益的保障納入法律當中那"},{"start":9298.897,"end":9324.217,"text":"除了生理用品的供應另外一個很重要的保障措施是生理假在103年的時候其實教育部就已經透過韓式的方式建一個學校要去將學生請假的規定納入生理假這樣的價別但是時至今日其實可以看到很多學校沒有落實相關的規範或是在很多配套或執行細節上因為在韓式中沒有提及所以參辭不起可能對學生造成了一下極點的困境"},{"start":9324.677,"end":9347.291,"text":"第一个呢是学生请生理假的时候会影响到全勤奖的生理因为大部分的学校在制定这个全勤奖生理规范的内容当中之后把工价还有商价排除在外但是基于性别平等教育这个性别平等教育法这个精神我们不应该去因为学生请生理假而影响到生理全勤奖这样的"},{"start":9348.392,"end":9366.605,"text":"那我们建议也希望在相关的无论是性平教育法或是韩式或是学生的讲诚规定当中可以有明确的规范说当学生请生理假的时候不应该去影响到他全项的生理或是课堂的成绩或是说他其他不利的处分比较可能像是性公法或是教师的请假规则"},{"start":9367.466,"end":9386.154,"text":"那另外呢其實在很多學校在也規定說斷考期間是不得請生理假的或者即便他請了假他的成績也會遭受到打折影響到學生的考試的權益那我們建議就斷考期間能夠請生理假以及準假的條件不會有安排有成績計算等配套方式有更明確的規範要保障"},{"start":9387.174,"end":9403.659,"text":"另外在請假的計算方面可以看到許多學校仍然將生理假並入病假的計算且就每天的天數做出有規範並沒有進一步說明說請假的單位以及節次它可以半日或是整日譬如說能不能加總或是分次的進假譬如說我早上"},{"start":9404.64,"end":9427.982,"text":"我今天起下午的半天明天起早上的半天因為它只是一個規定說要有一天這樣的規範所以我們的建議呢因為其實每個人月經的經驗會因為他的個人體質或是環境還有生活的習慣有高度的差異可能是同一個學生在不同時期有不一樣的需求所以我們建議針對這個請假的規範以及天數可以展開更明確的演繹還有彈性的規範讓學生的需求可以被保障"},{"start":9429.465,"end":9456.118,"text":"那接著在提綱三所提到的違反二十之一的情形我們建議教師在教學或教材上如果有傳達嚴重的性別偏見或是刻板印象的行為也應該去成立性別事件是可以交付調查雖然現在法規有明確的規定說教材或教學內容必須符合性別評等這個原則但是因為現在比較沒有後續的關於處置的機制還有法則因為只要沒有特定的可能被害人出來指認"},{"start":9456.758,"end":9472.781,"text":"那雖然這行為可能確實不妥但是在行政上或是訪問上卻沒有辦法處置所以我們蠻認同可能像范雲委員關係文書裡面草原所提到的版本將這種通案性的教學性的行為納入性別事件的範疇然後去補足目前制度的不足"},{"start":9473.522,"end":9501.408,"text":"然後最後我還是想回到Ido最在意的事情也就是學生在教育政策中的參與還有表意學校的性平會並不只是校園性別事件的處理委員會在性平法第六條性平會更肩負起課程教材研發家庭教育社會家庭和社會的教育校園環境的規劃還有性別平等的推廣活動等等性平計畫的推展性平會不只肩負起校園性別事件的調查還有審理更多的是不同處事之間的合作橫向公共的平台"},{"start":9502.788,"end":9520.752,"text":"性平课程的发展与学校年度的性平计划就会因为性平会的存在可以让校内有更多意见的交换和合作在性平法第七条还有第八条在教育部还有各县市政府的性平会让学生代表纳入法定的出席委员但到性平法的第九条法条并没有要求学校性平会需要聘任学生代表为会议成员之一"},{"start":9521.312,"end":9550.103,"text":"我们理解第九条所规范的性平会的学校当中横跨了国民小学至大专业院校那也要求学校聘任学生代表为会议成员而且考量到性平会的特殊性质面对比较复杂的个案的时候学生有更多的不确定性甚至有替代性伤害的风险所以我们在认同我们认同在相关知识支持的措施完善之前不宜贸然将学生代表列入性平会的法定出席成员但是学生代表的表意的参与相当重要也相当有价值举个例子师大附中在2020"},{"start":9550.623,"end":9574.053,"text":"對 謝謝"},{"start":9575.239,"end":9591.359,"text":"非常感谢台湾EDU教育协会冯雨洁同学为学生团体所做的一个发言接下来我们邀请新北市资商新理事公会的罗慧群理事长上台做发言请"},{"start":9592.686,"end":9612.037,"text":"主席各位專家先進大家午安那我想今天這個公聽會剛剛前面幾位先進都已經有蠻詳細的表達也很多都是我支持的觀點那我想今天可能發表的專家學者我應該是唯一的心理師吧"},{"start":9612.877,"end":9638.103,"text":"不曉得有沒有藏在底下的心理師那我在學校我在醫院服務啦所以在我們過往在醫院服務裡面就有在從事心情和相關的心理治療那當然在教育部很好的一個政策醫療入校的情況底下我大概也參與國中一直到大學端的學校資源的任務大概也將近近十年"},{"start":9639.551,"end":9653.384,"text":"那我想現場的觀察我自己曾經有輔導過當然就是在性平事件中無論是兩兆相對人被害人或者是學校的老師那師對生,生對師都有"},{"start":9654.127,"end":9682.129,"text":"那我只能說有一個比較遺憾的地方就是在這個法當然我認為法當然有修的必要性但是法呢它就是一個很硬的東西它很難改很難改很難變通那剛剛前面幾位先進都有提到其實在第一線的實務現場以及這一些發生性平事件之後無論是哪一方我們今天絕對不是說我只做被害人"},{"start":9683.07,"end":9699.513,"text":"相對人通通有相關連帶影響的人他可能都會需要相關的治療或輔導但是重點就來了很多時候性平安結束以後什麼都沒有除非他是很嚴重很嚴重的性侵事件"},{"start":9701.267,"end":9718.47,"text":"剛剛也有學者提到說性平教育要8小時已經不是有沒有錢的問題了他根本也找不到地方可以上課或者是說就算上了又怎麼樣呢我不知道大家有沒有這個概念我蠻常聽到有人告訴我說上了又如何"},{"start":9719.946,"end":9747.786,"text":"那我就要回到我今天的立場今天的立場其實在教育界裡面我想剛剛有很多的家長代表跟老師代表那我只想提醒一件事情在教育現場我們不討論到底學生未成年還是成年即便學生是成年人一樣在教育現場就有權利不對等的問題我手上有很多博士生這個名校就不說了博士生已經快要30歲了"},{"start":9749.565,"end":9759.18,"text":"他有沒有在教育現場受到壓迫有沒有受到教授們的這個性相關的權力相關的一個威迫大家覺得有沒有這樣的事在發生"},{"start":9762.448,"end":9788.69,"text":"蠻多的蠻多的那未成年人怎麼辦呢我們更討論更在意的是未成年人他們在這個權利裡面今天講要主動表意到底他要怎麼主動到底他要怎麼積極表意很多時候在我們的文化裡面小孩被教導的是你要聽老師的話所以很多時候會很辛苦受傷的孩子都是聽話的孩子"},{"start":9789.741,"end":9801.639,"text":"大家有聽懂我在講什麼嗎我當然就希望說那我的孩子都不要當聽話的孩子好了但很奇怪不聽話的孩子在學校會被善待嗎好像也不會那到底我的小孩是要聽話還是不聽話"},{"start":9804.489,"end":9828.435,"text":"我覺得這個好難這是權利問題第二個是什麼呢第二個是關於今天在討論的無論是要講性別講性我想問一下各位在我二十幾年我蠻老的二三十年前在國中時代我在念的健康教育我最近還蠻有興趣也去問了我國中的一些同學"},{"start":9830.235,"end":9848.042,"text":"應該說我的個案我問他們到底現在健康教育教些什麼我很好奇我的小孩也在念七年級了我也問他學校有教這方面的嗎剛有很多老師們提到到底我們要叫男性生殖器官要叫什麼我問大家你一定有你的喜好"},{"start":9850.629,"end":9874.709,"text":"這沒什麼這沒什麼但是問題是我們有沒有一個版本大家都知道這個叫醫學名詞這個叫專業名詞這個叫做無論你是老師家長同學你是教育部次長你都可以用這個沒有問題我們到底有沒有這個共識啊我很坦誠跟大家講台灣社會沒有因為性在我們的文化裡面好說還不好說"},{"start":9876.82,"end":9905.072,"text":"不好說啊你要性教育性健康像我們做性諮商性治療我們要提到這個概念基本上我們沒有受過很嚴謹的訓練我們也講不出來啊為什麼我們也在這個文化上長大隨隨便便可以講出男性生殖器官女性生殖器官或者我今天在公聽會上面我就使用了大家俗稱的這種說法俗稱嘛台語有沒有對這些生殖器官的俗稱"},{"start":9906.311,"end":9922.573,"text":"但講出來你通常會感受到什麼感覺各位底下的這些學者們一定覺得我不適任對吧一定可能就要告發我了之類的對不對你居然在立法院用這麼污穢的詞彙在講這些東西那我也只能想學校也沒有教"},{"start":9924.022,"end":9947.465,"text":"哪裡有教剛剛這個陳佩玉有提到很多的孩子啊我也不要講孩子很多的大人各位在座成年人我們關於性的知識到底從哪裡來我們跟孩子一樣嘛不是網路嗎現在哪一個人不從網路學東西但是網路上的東西到底到底怎麼影響"},{"start":9949.386,"end":9972.275,"text":"小爸爸小媽媽 因為我也參與衛福部的這個逆境方案今天剛好保護師副部長也在這裡很多小爸爸小媽媽的議題已經不是他懷不懷孕了剛剛講性病嘛大家知道現在孩子認為說我不用戴保險套 我想要無套性行為他擔心的是什麼擔心什麼"},{"start":9976.246,"end":9991.213,"text":"只有生不生小孩沒有關係 我有吃病藥醫生有給我開黃體素我都可以避開 我不會懷孕現在小孩只想 我不會懷孕就好他忘記了什麼安全性行為還有一個很重要的叫什麼性病防治啊"},{"start":9993.814,"end":10013.542,"text":"然後更多的是我們的情感教育面各種教育面對我來說非常的缺乏因為時間不夠我再多講一個部分剛有這個家長我在學校也跟很多家長合作家長有很多時候我們非常非常期待家長端真的能夠要進到一起團結"},{"start":10015.163,"end":10034.66,"text":"但是我也很坦誠的跟理事長報告很多的家長沒有很好的性平觀念也沒有性健康的觀念所以這一切呢都要仰賴教育部因為教育部不是只有管學校嘛你還有成人教育還有家庭教育今天可能也要把家庭教育法再拿出來編一下"},{"start":10035.26,"end":10051.555,"text":"到底這裡面還可以再做些什麼事情這個我想社長我們也見過很多吃麵但是好像都還是這樣那最後一個代表我們工會也跟教育部反映一下像今年我剛也才剛前陣子收到公文就是我們講的這個性平相關調查委員"},{"start":10053.061,"end":10079.637,"text":"非常感謝有想到我們心理師因為我想條文上也都有但是我也想跟次長反映一下說我們通常收到公文的時候其實時程都很趕我們心理師的工作其實都是預排制、預約制很多時候我們會員一直反映說為什麼每次來的時候我都不能參加我真的很想參與變成調查委員但我總是參加不到因為教育部的課通常都排在平日"},{"start":10080.157,"end":10095.214,"text":"然後通常一年就是三天然後他一定要參加完訓練完從頭到尾還要考試還要幹嘛我們同意嚴謹的訓練但是能不能給心理師這個職類多一點時間彈性或者是更早預告我們可以預排時間去參與以上 謝謝"},{"start":10097.734,"end":10112.935,"text":"好非常的感谢新北市商新理事公会我们理事长所做的政策建言那接下来呢是邀请不会教小孩行动联盟的陈宇理事长上台作发言景"},{"start":10115.133,"end":10141.543,"text":"在場大家好然後我今天代表的身份是不畏嬌小孩行動聯盟那我們是一個以性平專業工作者然後同時身兼家長身份成立的家長團體那這幾年在做的事情大概就是在第一線的現場回應家長對於性教育和性平教育的需求以及發現非常多的學校老師們也非常多對於性平教育性教育這件事情有迫切的需求"},{"start":10141.923,"end":10156.78,"text":"因為今天主要是談論性別平等教育法所以我們會把觀點放在國小以上但實際上也給教育部另外一個提醒現在在幼兒園部分其實並沒有針對性平教育一定要教或是其他的訴求但是幼兒園"},{"start":10157.58,"end":10178.27,"text":"現場也已經非常的需要需要更多的支持和其他的教學資源的投入好那今天因為議題提高非常多那不曉蒙這邊我們簡稱不曉蒙總共會有四個會議四個主要的部分以家長身份的部分來跟大家回應然後第一件事情就是針對第一題積極同意是不是在校園裡面入法這件事情"},{"start":10178.49,"end":10195.658,"text":"很高興聽到剛剛在現場的各位其實大部分的人都是贊成的那我就很快的分享這個部分就是現在的孩子就是他出生之後到國小已經是那個每一年都要至少受過四個每一學期受過四個小時的性品原生帶就像我們會說數位原生帶一樣"},{"start":10196.178,"end":10214.758,"text":"所以這群孩子其實他的積極同意之能已經走得比我們快多了雖然今天現場大家都覺得在校園裡面推積極同意這件事情是可行的但是其實他在刑法的修法上遇到了非常強大的反對的力道所以我也想要再說一次就是我們非常贊同在現場"},{"start":10215.939,"end":10244.571,"text":"教育現場先行投入那為什麼就是小孩就簡單只講一個例子小孩現在你光是要跟不要撇開性別不談你光是要跟他借一支筆一起玩一個玩具一起走路去哪邊小孩都要知道要先問對方那怎麼會到了性交或是性侵行為或性行為的時候可以不用問要給他表達違反意願才算性侵行為這是一件不可思議的事情那性侵行為這件事情"},{"start":10245.051,"end":10272.473,"text":"所以我們原則上就是非常的贊成在效益現場可以做這件事好然後在第二點剛剛有也贊同其他先進說的如果是其他識別事件的話我們非常贊同按照情節分流處理減低第一線的困境然後第二個是在教學的部分要特別提到的事情是教師其實是非常迫切需要教學性平教育的知能和資源"},{"start":10273.294,"end":10299.254,"text":"分兩個部分現在在現場的教學會分成融入式的教學和課本和教材實際上有的那我要跟大家舉一個例子在大學的今天比較少談到大學端但其實學生性平年性那邊非常關心教育端大學端裡面其實教育部已經委託台大有做了大學院院校性別主流化資源中心計畫的課程檢視清單給所有的教授看說如果你的課程要關注性別平等"},{"start":10299.594,"end":10326.49,"text":"你要怎麼把性別主人化的概念融入在你的課程有非常多20個指標那我前幾天在台東大學幫所有的教職員演講發現沒有人知道這個清單就是它其實就是一個非常好在現場可以寫出那這樣子的東西怎麼去運用在高中 國中跟國小其實是需要非常多的智能賠力所以這是第一個部分給大家看然後第二個事情是我今年去參加我家小孩國小六年級的家長會然後從他的課本"},{"start":10329.011,"end":10357.951,"text":"就抽屜翻出課本看到這是某一個版本六下的社會裡面在談第二章第二課如何落實人權保障分成兩個部分一個是守護兒童福利另外一個是保障婦女權益整個題目就這麼兩頁給你們看看保障婦女權益的課本通過我們國教院審查的課本寫什麼他說以婦女為例早期的婦女受到傳統禮俗的影響才會處於不平等地位然後還說那婦女可以提出育嬰留職停薪然後其他"},{"start":10358.191,"end":10379.834,"text":"就是我就是不用一一大家都是專家一看就是這頁我大概可以挑出十個大家來找查性平教育錯了什麼婦女權益怎麼會只有這些如果連課本都這樣那老師現場怎麼會有相關的資能所以教師其實是迫切需要教學的資能和資源那贊同非常剛剛有很多人說可以引進新增性平領域的次專長教師的能力另外一個我們也覺得"},{"start":10381.015,"end":10405.905,"text":"要求所有現場的教師都能夠學會性別平等並且融入或是有結構性那才太困難了另外一方面不如就引進外部的專業師子本身就有性別平等專業但是他得加修教育學分才能進到教學現場我們其實是非常反對沒有教育資源的外部的人直接進到教學現場去教育然後第三個事情是正式教學中剛剛說的性平法20條現在沒有處理機制的問題"},{"start":10408.106,"end":10427.753,"text":"那這個問題其實從本來要跟大家說的是2023年的修法前其實是有如果你在學校裡面偏見其實是可以直接用性品法處理在哪裡2020年台大機械系的考題就有但是為什麼到金門京城國中雖然現在這個教師的解聘被四年不得聘任但是大家知道他是用什麼嗎"},{"start":10428.433,"end":10448.94,"text":"他是用性騷擾他用性騷擾性平視界的調查去做這件事情剛剛有先進說如果教師用他只是上課偏了然後或者是有性別偏見或是他真的不知道這些智能交錯了他就要被等同於性騷擾這對教師來說是非常大的侮辱所以這個是修法之後留下來的漏洞因為本來的28條被刪掉大家可以去看"},{"start":10450.7,"end":10466.95,"text":"所以這個部分今天在范雲委員的提案裡面有附在後面我們已經有提出一個版本希望後續可以盡快的修法通過所以我們要講一句話就是要贊同教學部分裡面有處理機制才能夠避免教學不當你就變成性騷擾這個才能夠還給現場教師他應該有的權利"},{"start":10470.851,"end":10486.145,"text":"再來第四個是今天在提綱裡面沒有提到但是布小萌非常關心的也是我們從第一線的小孩裡面回應給我們的因為他們現在已經都教了非常多的身體界線跟身體自主權的課程然後就有小朋友直接問我們說那為什麼"},{"start":10487.026,"end":10515.305,"text":"学校男生上厕所的厕所小便斗都没有门啊那这件事情大家可以思考一下就是连空间我们都知道身体界限身体隐私不应该要分性别我们也没有只教女生说你要保护自己并没有这件事情男生也应该要学习别人尊重他的身体界限我们的性平法第12条第6条也都明白的说要建立性别平等的校园安全空间可是为什么男生的小便斗都没有门这件事情其实是现况然后那"},{"start":10515.945,"end":10530.727,"text":"給大家看幾個已經現在有在做的北美館在那個圓山北美館的南側已經是小便斗南側本身就有門然後所有的人看上過之後都說這個是人生看過最棒的南側然後在幼兒園裡面也已經有開始做不只性別友善廁所"},{"start":10531.468,"end":10556.861,"text":"幼兒園裡面的小便斗也有一些地方開始裝了門給大家看那我們要說的最後一件事情就是性平法除了現在講的教學性別事件之外性別評點的校園空間其實現在就可以開始做性別友善廁所不只還有男廁的小便斗有門還給所有學生身體自主權再說一次性平年生帶的孩子值得更好學習環境希望大家在這邊有志一同的為孩子繼續努力謝謝"},{"start":10559.1,"end":10568.991,"text":"非常感谢布小萌陈宜理事长的发言那今天呢最后一位发言我们邀请张亚林委员请上台发言"},{"start":10577.276,"end":10606.001,"text":"謝謝主席然後我今天非常高興可以來參加這個性平法的一個公聽會那我想我今天的分享大概就是會針對幾個我自己觀察到的幾個議題來跟大家做一個討論特別是說我想過去20年我們持續的修法然後在近年的密通運動之後呢制度快速的補強讓更多人願意出來發聲那當然我們也可以看見到這個通報量在這幾年持續的增加甚至在最近的這段時間我們增加了四成"},{"start":10606.781,"end":10630.7,"text":"那部分的大學一年通報量甚至超過200件但我想這個其實不是問題突然變多而是過去被壓抑不敢說的問題終於被看見他們終於站出來但是呢國家制度到底有沒有準備好來接這個問題所以我今天就是針對法律上面的部分先來跟大家做個討論就是說目前來說我們對於性侵害的判斷仍然是以違反意願為核心"},{"start":10631.721,"end":10658.482,"text":"但是在师生教练跟学生之间的本质上就是一个权力不对等的问题如果在这样子的关系上我们还用有没有拒绝来判断这个我认为是一个相当不合理的一件事情而这个也不是单一的个案也是结构性的一个问题所以不管是在这个礼拜我自己在司法法治委员会在质询法务部司法院还有我们包含刚刚监察院其实我都一直非常关心这个问题"},{"start":10660.062,"end":10683.153,"text":"那再來第二個問題就是說我們的制度上本身是非常的僵化現在的性平案件基本上就是進入同一套系統裡面可是這個性平事件其實落差非常非常的大也非常的多元從性侵害性騷擾到情感糾紛界限模糊的行動互動其實都存在可是我們卻用同一套制度一套準司法程序來處理那就變成是什麼"},{"start":10683.493,"end":10708.155,"text":"可能只是一個輕微的案件卻被過度的處理那也導致了我們的教師教育的空間被壓縮那我想根本的概念其實性平法是一個教育法它不是一個懲罰的法所以我還是會同意今天其實也有人就是發言就是說我們應該有一個分級制度區分教育輔導跟懲處調查讓制度回到教育的本質而不是只剩下處罰"},{"start":10709.216,"end":10736.483,"text":"那第三個就是性評會目前其實已經過載可是我們沒有資源到位也就是說現在很多的性評會大概就是少數人甚至一個人負責整個制度的運作在過去我也參與過性評會的一些調查我是以專家的身分來調查的時候我會發現其實很多的老師可能對於一些相關的法院其實也相當的不清楚然後在案件量大幅增加的狀況之下調查延宕品質下降那被害人等待的時間也拉長"},{"start":10737.723,"end":10763.806,"text":"那這個其實已經是一個常態的所以我也會要求教育部必須提出明確的人力配置上的標準編列專案的經費並起建立跨校專業資源的機制否則這個制度可能會持續的失靈那同時這邊也可能提出大家來討論一下就是說我這次去澳洲我跟范瑀委員在1月份的時候我們去澳洲也特別關注到底在學校端他們如何去處理這些性平或是霸凌事件"},{"start":10764.446,"end":10786.743,"text":"那他们其实是有透过一个叫做第三方的机制来去做调查我觉得这个可能也可以是我们讨论的方向来减轻我们在校内他们的校内基本上就是做一个厘清案情的一个状态那调查的部分就回到这个第三方的调查机制我认为这也可以是一个思考的方向因为在人力有限行政资源有限的状况之下我们可能可以往这个方向来前进"},{"start":10788.416,"end":10812.725,"text":"那第四个部分呢其实就是被害人保护的一个机制的落差在制度上面写得非常完整但实务上面我们可以看到各自外泄二次伤害调查期过长等等的问题因为这一年来其实我协助处理这个台大女生射箭案件我认为我们真的需要强化被害人的支持系统特别是针对我们强化隐私跟匿名保护"},{"start":10814.006,"end":10834.501,"text":"還有提供心理與法律協助等等的讓他不是讓制度上不再只是要求受害者撐下去那最後一個部分我想要特別談的是有關於情感教育我們現在可以看到很多的案件不只是性騷擾或是性侵而是從關係上面的跟蹤騷擾分手暴力情感糾紛"},{"start":10836.062,"end":10861.809,"text":"升高為傷害事件但是我們的教育從來沒有教孩子如何去面對一個關係現在我們大概的性平教育就是法律知識來講可是我們沒有教孩子如何建立一個健康的關係如何拒絕如何分手如何處理情緒所以我認為也許我們的性平教育也必須再次升級納入三個核心的能力就是情感教育的部分還有第二個就是身體自主與界限以及"},{"start":10862.569,"end":10880.745,"text":"我們現在的孩子其實在網路上面交友是已經幾乎是常態了但網路上面如何去界定這個人到底是不是有問題我應該從哪些基上去察覺如何去避免自己落入了一個陷阱進入了這個所謂的數位性暴力數位性剝削的狀態我認為這個也是必須要再我們必須要再來進一步的來去思考"},{"start":10884.868,"end":10904.978,"text":"因為我想我們今天在討論性別平等教育就是希望可以讓我們的孩子在一個成長的過程之中安全的建立關係是被建立一個尊重別人也尊重自己的關係所以如果我們的制度上面只有一直停留在討論處罰的時候我們卻沒有教育跟預防那我們可能就只是一直在處理下一個受害者這樣子謝謝"},{"start":10906.766,"end":10926.426,"text":"好谢谢张亚林委员所做的发言那今天呢在场的学者专家还有委员们均已全部发言完毕那非常的高兴因为今天受邀我们在这个地方其实有家长的声音"},{"start":10927.547,"end":10952.444,"text":"有老师的声音也有学生的声音那更有所谓的受害者的一个声音还有心理师的声音还有同志们的声音声音非常的多元我想我们都彼此听到了所以接下来我要请机关代表来做回应首先我们先邀请教育部有请朱次长请"},{"start":10960.059,"end":10984.258,"text":"謝謝主席跟我們19位我們各領域的學者專家跟委員的提問這裡面其實包含的面向很多我大概分幾個面向來回應各位委員跟我們先生女士的指導第一個大家提及最多的應該是在整個程序處理的部分可能從一開始的分流"},{"start":10985.118,"end":11003.102,"text":"案件通报的分流通报的机制这部分的处理各位提到甚至有建议说是不是可以有一些区隔有些案子有一些是简易程序的处理那有没有可能有调解或是说有第三方的"},{"start":11003.802,"end":11027.914,"text":"一個處理機制來檢定那針對一些比較不利情境的學生比如說特教生在有一些不同的處理我想各位提的這些部分檢疫程序目前是已經有在做處理那第三方的調查剛剛也張艾玲委員還有我們同學也有一些指導這部分我們也會來做評估"},{"start":11030.675,"end":11059.756,"text":"那在處理程序部分可能還有提到一些在過程中的一些分級處理比如說我們在合法教學底下所涉及的是不是馬上拉到性評案件或是性騷擾的處理這相關理解剛剛也幾位代表提出來我想我們也會一起來納入我們未來在分流的部分的處理我想"},{"start":11060.376,"end":11079.387,"text":"教育部應該是要做不管是老師或是我們第一線性別處理人員的後盾剛剛聽了這個幾個個案的描述我是蠻感同身受的所以這塊我回去之後我會儘快跟我們相關事處來看看怎麼樣做一些分級的調整"},{"start":11082.574,"end":11102.82,"text":"另外還有提到一些這過程的保密義務或是對於受害人的一些制止做法其實在上一次范議員召開公聽會也有提到我們現在在研議針對一些保密義務或是一些制止體制的問題的一些做法我想這部分會來處理"},{"start":11103.96,"end":11124.674,"text":"第二個部分大家比較關心的是在我們性平課程的一個落實包含說除了性平課程之外是不是有全面的性教育跟健康教育這個部分也一併要做處理畢竟這是比較屬於預防性的我們不要說"},{"start":11125.635,"end":11151.944,"text":"落到最後整個性平法都是在處理性平的程序性平的事件那這部分我們也再一步雖然過去我們有一些在全面性教育在親港教育有一些做法但看起來力道或是我們落實程度還是不夠不然各位不會一直講所以這部分我們也會來做個盤點看看哪些部分可以再做一些加強"},{"start":11153.052,"end":11172.016,"text":"那另外在性平課程部分也有提到說是不是要有一定現在都比較屬於是融入性的融入議題方面的一個教學是不是要有特定的時數不管是在中小學或是在大學階段那這部分謝謝我們警衛"},{"start":11174.737,"end":11198.75,"text":"有幾位先進也提出來我想我們也會一併來做評估不過確實就是說在大學部分以我的觀察在大學部分可能還比較可以來處理是因為在通識校教育我們可以來開學修可是目前在中小學的課綱裡面其實那個時數是非常非常的滿如果要另外拉出來所以"},{"start":11200.231,"end":11217.98,"text":"是不是可以用什麼方式來做現在都是用農路式的各位提到說農路式的要怎麼樣來教其實在這幾年國教署也支持了很多教案的開發不管是在高中階段或是中小學都有一些教案可以來做參考"},{"start":11219.381,"end":11239.756,"text":"但是我覺得問題可能就在於剛剛我們有提到的可能教育部有很多教案有很多線上課程有很多參考指引但是可能散佈出去的那一種觸及到的老師學生甚至學校的行政端可能都還不是那麼夠"},{"start":11240.616,"end":11267.708,"text":"所以這一塊我也會跟各個師處來討論 線上部裡面是有一些資源的但怎麼樣能夠讓他能夠更周知 同時說在高校跟中小學階段有一些可以一起來運用或是互相的做協作 這部分我們會來處理那第三個部分 大概比較關心的是在人員那這個人員的部分包含老師還有我們處理"},{"start":11269.709,"end":11290.349,"text":"姓名事件的承办同仁刚刚有提到其实在即便我们有专者的能力但大部分学校可能就一位甚至在中小学多是兼班那这一块其实在国教署跟我们学务室大概都有做一些调查不过这个部分怎么样有一些专案能力的调整"},{"start":11290.649,"end":11297.318,"text":"或是怎麼引導學校願意把經費把能力補足這個部分也是下一步接下來我們會積極來做處理那在"},{"start":11301.636,"end":11323.041,"text":"人员的部分另外一块是在老师的这个部分那老师的部分目前在师资生在那个的阶段大概都有在加强但是比较需要再努力的可能就是针对于在职的老师这个部分刚刚其实有几位有老师愿意可是可能因为"},{"start":11323.721,"end":11351.05,"text":"排課的關係因為經費的關係可能沒有辦法來上我想這個部分也是謝謝各位點出這個現場問題我也會請國教署來評估雖然我們現在是由經費補助學校來自辦但是到底自辦的效果如何這個可能我們要進一步的來做一些追蹤了解那在人員第四個部分大概就是在經費的部分"},{"start":11351.69,"end":11367.942,"text":"那現在我們是有一些對於說如果是姓名案件的話他在聘請調查人員或是調查經費這個是部裡面是有補助的那學校當然也要編譯相關的一些搭配的經費"},{"start":11368.663,"end":11385.022,"text":"那這個額度是不是足夠各位也提出來說不要排擠到學校既有的一些經費的運作這部分我們也會來做一些了解那是不是來試著做一些調整跟地方政府來合作這部分我們會來做處理那也提到了這個"},{"start":11386.743,"end":11408.268,"text":"多元的生理用品的這一塊那這部分其實在目前中小學階段大概一年有一億六左右經費國教署也有在協助我們一些經濟不利的同學那我們在大專的校大專校園部分其實也有去盤點出來學校目前的發放情形那這個這一塊再不"},{"start":11411.069,"end":11426.496,"text":"我上次在開會已經有指示了就是說只要大專階段一樣針對於比較經濟不利的同學我們一樣會有專環補助然後學校的部分我們也做了調查只要是這種"},{"start":11428.813,"end":11442.686,"text":"包含地點跟提供的用品其實我看很多學校已經做得不錯既然有學校做得到其他學校不做到的那就是教育部我們要來要求所以這個部分我已經提醒相關事處把這一塊把它做更加強"},{"start":11443.807,"end":11469.86,"text":"那最後有一些可能需要與時俱進的一些概念觀念跟做法不然各位提到有關於數位暴力或是我們親密關係的暴力或是提到有關在積極同意跟修正強制的一個概念甚至剛剛有先進提到在幼兒園的部分這一塊"},{"start":11470.96,"end":11496.752,"text":"可能要關注我想這個部分教育部當然在這一塊先前大概都有一些做法那教育部能不能有些在教育面向做得更前先跨出去不見得說一定要等到法制面剛剛也有先進提出這樣的概念這部分我們也會一起來做歸線跨部會討論如果有可能教育部先來處理我覺得這個也是可以來進行的"},{"start":11497.532,"end":11518.475,"text":"那最後還是謝謝我們各位先進19位先進提供這些意見其實我寫的滿滿的印章回去我們要做的功課很多那也期待在這個過程中如果到時候需要跟我們一些專業團體跟我們老師同學做溝通的時候也請各位再不吝指導謝謝"},{"start":11520.481,"end":11540.055,"text":"非常謝謝教育部朱次長的回應確實剛才有觀察到正筆記書一直埋頭在做筆記 謝謝今天其餘還有幾個列席的機關代表請問衛福部張靖倫副司長這邊有沒有補充回應好 請 謝謝"},{"start":11545.752,"end":11572.003,"text":"委員還有各位先進那因為剛剛有委員跟先進有提到這個性影像案件那如果遇到這個性影像案件遭散佈的話那衛福部現在是有成立一個性影像處理中心可以快速針對這些性影像進行快速的移除下架那另外針對這個性侵害的創傷復原我們有一個性創傷復原中心全國大概有15家性創傷復原中心可以提供協助"},{"start":11572.383,"end":11599.001,"text":"那這個部分所有的資源都在衛福部的官網上面那也提醒各位先進可能可以上去幫我們看一下也可以做一下宣導來做運用那在跨部會合作的部分我們也會跟教育部這邊來一起努力那以上謝謝衛福部張景倫副市長接下來我們請教法務部汪南君參事有沒有補充意見好 謝謝"},{"start":11610.263,"end":11628.194,"text":"主席各位委员各位女士先生今天聆听各位就性平教育法相关的各项议题的意见也深有感触那请代表法务部就法治相关的议题简要的回应提纲一是有关这个校园性别事件的性侵害"},{"start":11639.822,"end":11647.31,"text":"大家的意见有一点不一致因为现在现行的刑法是采违反意愿的判断标准"},{"start":11648.844,"end":11670.052,"text":"實務的見解雖然已經逐漸放寬對這個議院的認定但是如果教育法規單獨引入積極同意的話這樣子需要注意行政調查跟司法認定標準不一可能造成的衝擊那這個還是需要和相關領域的學者專家還有主管機關來研商"},{"start":11671.713,"end":11690.796,"text":"那這部分屬於教育跟衛福政策的整體規劃事項那也涉及主管機關的專業判斷與政策的衡量以及大院的職權與決定那本部就尊重主管機關的政策決定跟大院的審議結果以上請主席及各位委員女士先生指教謝謝"},{"start":11693.338,"end":11705.721,"text":"非常感謝法務部的回應那接下來我們邀請內政部警政署徐坤龍防治組的副組長來做回應謝謝委員還有在座各位先進大家好"},{"start":11723.154,"end":11734.349,"text":"那今天緊究性別平等教育法修法校園性別事件有關內政部警政署主責的部分簡單來做一個回應那從"},{"start":11736.772,"end":11758.611,"text":"跟蹤騷擾防治法在民國111年6月1號我們正式實施之後我們統計到今年的2月28號那我們警察機關受理的跟蹤騷擾案件總共有10918件那其中有涉及到性別平等教育法"},{"start":11759.812,"end":11770.236,"text":"轉介給教育機關還有學校來處理的案件是有275件那占所有跟蹤騷擾案件是2.52%"},{"start":11775.424,"end":11795.004,"text":"那當然針對校園內具有高風險跟騷傾向的學生本署也非常的重視那依據我們的這個實務經驗跟蹤騷擾的行為大多具有反覆持續還有危險會逐漸升級的一個真相"},{"start":11795.825,"end":11811.311,"text":"那許多暴力攻擊在初期看起來是沒有傷害性的過度追求或是糾纏的呈現那這些相關的案件如果單單靠刑事追溯還有處罰的手段"},{"start":11812.231,"end":11831.247,"text":"可能没有办法有效的来改变这些高风险学生的执念还有认知还有赖校园的辅导还有相关行政机关的辅助来共同防治才能够有效的来做处理那面对校园根捎高风险案件"},{"start":11832.268,"end":11854.029,"text":"我們警政署也建議應該由性評會輔導室還有警察還有社政機關來建立緊密的一個合作關係那以輔導柔性的手段根本來處理行為人的一個執念那在賦予警政機關執法作為我想這樣才能夠有效的共同防治那今天相關有關"},{"start":11855.33,"end":11872.403,"text":"各位专家学者提出来如果有牵涉到警政的部分我们也会来重视来列为日后相关一个修法或是一个行政作为一个参考以上谢谢好谢谢警政署所做的回应"},{"start":11873.183,"end":11887.279,"text":"那再一次的感谢今天受邀与会的各位学者专家各个团体还有今天我们几个部会所做的一个回应"},{"start":11888.1,"end":11906.068,"text":"那在這裡也特別要感謝除了所有立法委員特別是教育文化委員對於這一次性平修法的一個積極跟關心之外我們很多的媒體朋友也在場他們也同樣的關注這個議題那後續也會有相關的報導那在這裡就是一併向大家致謝"},{"start":11911.83,"end":11927.856,"text":"等一下结束之后如果大家愿意停留脚步我们就做一个大合照合影今天的公听会在这边就宣布告一个段落感谢所有与会者从不同的面向提供我们非常多宝贵的意见"},{"start":11928.456,"end":11956.386,"text":"今天各位所有的发言内容跟所有的书面资料还有柯之恩委员提供的书面意见我们全部都会列入记录刊登公报并且制作成公听会报告送交本院全体委员还有所有出席的与会人员来做参考今天我们会审慎考量作为未来修法的依据请大家放心谢谢大家现在宣布散会"}]}},{"id":"168585","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168585","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ec77822e2e6eae3fbf06528975a0a17ba64134b0f452f2ee6b800412f8d870b303090bacd9a8aae5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"12:15:44 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像今天雖然是要講的事實上是中東 可是我比較關切的事實上也就是我過去曾經質詢過的一些課題今天就要來跟你講一下是說"},{"start":31.43,"end":52.659,"text":"這陣子我們大家都也可以看到我們的交通部大安司公布的數據大家可以發現我們微型電動二輪車的數量十年內大概成長了五倍那其中我更關心的是耳哨的傷亡情形那17歲以下的111年佔整體的22%到現在114年已經佔整體的36%了"},{"start":58.752,"end":86.983,"text":"它事實上是一直在成長的所以就要問部長是說針對微型電動二輪車的事故防治到底交通部有沒有掌握跟委員報告這個部分確實是數據上看起來它的存在越來越多越來越多的這樣子的車輛大家在使用那第二事故率確實也因為使用的人多事故率必然也會增加那這個部分其實交通部也都有注意到有沒有相關對策"},{"start":89.654,"end":113.214,"text":"委員在關心的是應該是未來是不是針對這一方面要不要再更加強管理或者是加強宣導的部分那這個部分其實我們有跟這個勞動部也好或者是教育部也好我們都有在討論說未來在這方面要怎麼這樣做教育上面的宣導那管制的部分在這段時間其實這幾年我們也有一定的這個作為我是不是請市長來向您回答我想時間關係我就不請市長"},{"start":115.976,"end":135.677,"text":"那因為我覺得更重要當然你說教育宣導我相信也會去做可是到底那個力道到底多強因為隨著這個上升當然你剛剛講是說因為使用的人更多可是我也要問就是針對改裝檢驗的規範左邊是我打關鍵字你就看到一大堆的影片隨便"},{"start":138.39,"end":167.243,"text":"點選就是教你如何怎麼改裝讓速度調掉了那右邊是記者去問公務局的同仁他說目前確實缺乏的就是召回臨檢的規範那我查到案規則過去有領牌的輕型機車過去就是50cc可是衛星電動二輪車過去也是期待是取代我們的50cc那可是我們卻對於這種類似的定位的一個微電車都沒有任何"},{"start":167.942,"end":191.632,"text":"的幾個機制就到底為什麼去獨露這個部分那有什麼考量嗎向委員報告微型二輪電動車的這個檢驗基準已經有防篡改速限的這個要求速限裝置的要求不能去改我們這個要求那未來不能改為什麼一堆都是在叫你怎麼改那我覺得在路面上跑的應該也蠻多是改裝的"},{"start":192.582,"end":198.644,"text":"像委員報告我們會跟警方來聯合來做稽查那這個部分我們會加強來稽查跟查核"},{"start":200.607,"end":227.439,"text":"所以事實上國外就有一些經驗事實上是可以參考了ETSC的建議就是我們的機動車輛最好事實上是到16歲那過去我們自己在民間也倡議為什麼因為我們看到15到17是商網最高的時間點那如果事實上我們現在是14歲就勢必是同意就面對到那如果事實上是修改到16歲比照國外的話那個商網才不會事實上是坐任他"},{"start":227.859,"end":252.294,"text":"一直事實上是這麼高尤其他事實上是對青少年殺傷力事實上特別高甚至應該建立考訓跟我們的檢驗機制交通部是不是可以應該更積極的研擬重新去檢視這個管理政策是什麼而不是等到問題發生了我們再來亡羊補牢我覺得有時候事實上是來不及的啦所以我希望江部這個不知道是不是可以"},{"start":255.409,"end":258.482,"text":"給個時間點什麼時候可以去研議這個配套的措施"},{"start":261.006,"end":283.658,"text":"向委員報告目前微型電動二輪車的部分我們限制是在14歲可是我講15到17是三網最高的所以委員的建議是希望15到17當然第一個事實上是可以提高然後另外一個是我剛剛講配套的措施一定要做因為畢竟我們還有個17歲15到17最高可是你如果現在16可是我們還是有個17歲"},{"start":284.959,"end":313.057,"text":"我們青少年實在是經不起這樣的折損因為我們已經面對到少子化去年生10萬9那我們每個孩子都不能少的狀態底下委員的建議我們會納入討論您的建議是16歲希望界限在16歲還有我剛剛講的這些配套是不是可以考慮一個月內可不可以給我相關的這個報告那再來也就是個人行動器具這也是我過去質詢過的也同樣有這樣的問題我知道交通部現在很謹慎"},{"start":313.937,"end":340.115,"text":"希望也可以進善進美那也請了運營所來研究可是除了找地方跟廠商來開會可是去年7月31號開完會結束之後很多廠商都來問我說到底有沒有後續部長難道地方繼續不訂定這些行動器具的使用者每天都要面臨到違法然後被裁罰的風險嗎所以部長目前的整個交通部規劃是什麼從今年7月31號開完會之後就沒有下文了"},{"start":344.477,"end":362.142,"text":"報告委員我們在今年的3月13號已經有提供一個指引給各個地方政府了在今年的3月13號那你對地方的強制指引他如果不照做呢因為本來就是各地方要他們去訂規格那什麼叫做行動個人行動報告委員這是地方的權責"},{"start":363.562,"end":375.791,"text":"地方的權責那中央對於地方的權責到底有多少的強制性我們已經出了指引我們也會希望他趕快來做但是我們能不能很強制他去怎麼做這個要看各個地方他們自己的判斷"},{"start":376.755,"end":396.462,"text":"那你的報案考核是不是可以列入為一個考量的一個點所以對於新興運動器具的話我覺得希望你們能夠針對微型電動二輪車一個月內給我研究一個報告然後就是我覺得把個人行動器具的會議紀錄資料是不是可以提供這個沒有問題"},{"start":397.122,"end":408.47,"text":"那最後呢我想問一個因為今天報紙上整個大阪都在登的也是我從一進來就質詢到今天我都還在關心的也就是高齡駕駛這一塊我們記者會開了然後去年發生事情了我在開完記者會"},{"start":413.754,"end":431.04,"text":"下一週就發生事情 再三下時間很不幸那如果我們要動作快一點的話那當然我就很擔心對 沒有錯 江部也很快就回應了就是要能夠70歲以下可是我一直認為他不是年齡有沒有基於科學基礎的一個專業判斷一定要來讓他"},{"start":434.201,"end":457.09,"text":"能夠去做一些認知的測驗而不是說我定一個70歲然後只要體檢跟安全教育今天年齡真的不是一個問題最大的事實上是身體的能力到底如何而且我也希望能夠便民所以我不知道是不是可否這個部分我們有跟醫學會來做很專業的訪問這個不是完全沒有依據這是絕對有依據的所以在日本也是70歲的患兆他們並沒有做認知測驗"},{"start":459.656,"end":474.22,"text":"我認為今天台灣事實上甚至失智都有往下的那個趨勢的時候我建議是不是可以找臨床心理師跟職能治療師來一起協助做認知判斷認知功能判斷醫學專家的認知功能的判斷的專家我們都有討論過所以他們討論完的結論是希望界限是放在75歲那是風險比較高但70到75中間這一段目前看起來風險沒有這麼高"},{"start":486.304,"end":500.022,"text":"不過我覺得地方政府有的已經開始做表示這事實上是有需要的我們不能再等下一件事發生的時候他們如果地方政府願意做我們相當歡迎對 那我覺得應該你這邊是不是應該也要想看配套因為您剛剛在說的是要依據專業我們有專業的判斷跟討論好 以上謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168584","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168584","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ec77822e2e6eae325d072887b4cf069ba64134b0f452f2ee6b800412f8d870b303090bacd9a8aae5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw","委員發言時間":"12:08:58 - 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謝謝主席 主席請邀請交通部陳部長我們請陳部長"},{"start":14.929,"end":40.925,"text":"委員好 部長好 部長就今天的專題和部長討論那這一次的中東歧視帶動國際油價的飆升那這不只是經濟的議題它也同時涉及到能源能源的供應還有運輸的穩定那我有看到國發會在4月13號的報告指出政府已經啟動專案的會議那交通部身為運輸的主管機關針對海空運的落道所增加的燃料成本還有航運時間有沒有具體的來"},{"start":43.645,"end":60.943,"text":"來建立緊急航權的調度機制向委員報告目前我們在海空運的部分都有掌握啦那海運的部分其實目前在進口的這個貨櫃的這個成本的成長的幅度並不高在出口的部分可能有比較高那這個部分其實是由業者他們去做吸收"},{"start":61.664,"end":87.518,"text":"那空運的部分我們會透過燃油附加費的部分來做這個國際航線的這個調度上面的協助那國內的部分我們目前是動漲的那油價的部分我們交通部有拜託這個中油公司幫我們把這個國內航空的這個油價從44塊條降到28塊那這個查額的部分目前是由中油先吸收但之後交通部會編列公務預算來"},{"start":87.998,"end":104.281,"text":"其實署長我問到這個問題因為4月13號有啟動這個會議嘛那在同一個時間台灣的時間晚上10點那美國已經對伊朗的港口還有所有海上交通實施全面的封鎖那署長局長您這邊有掌握到嗎因為我是問到幾金行學的調度機制"},{"start":107.672,"end":129.126,"text":"跟委員報告因為這個中油給我們的國際燃油跟國內線的燃油它是每個月的1號會公佈那基本上這個月的油價就是我們會照這個標準去處理那如果是在國際線的燃油附加費的部分因為它已經先公告了所以我們原本就有一個燃油附加"},{"start":129.246,"end":150.75,"text":"局長因為您提到這邊提到的是附加費那這邊我待會也和您討論那部長我看到這次的報告有說國內的公油是正常的然後沒有中斷也穩定那報告也有提到其他國家像是越南菲律賓已經開始限制加油了嘛那我國目前法定的存油量是標榜140天那在這樣封鎖的情況下那交通部有沒有針對這樣大眾運輸然後還有運輸的服務系統有一個優先配給的順序"},{"start":156.071,"end":179.919,"text":"跟委員報告因為中油給我們的訊息目前的油量都還是足夠啦那這個部分我們沒有做相對的配給的作為因為目前國家看起來的油量剛剛中油董事長也有報告大概到六月七月目前正在找七月的油那也找的差不多了那所以最近這幾個月其實這個壓力沒有那麼大不過委員在提醒的部分我們會先預作準備跟討論那是不是"},{"start":180.399,"end":203.944,"text":"董事長剛剛有提到是到7月嘛那現在的955線汽油是維持在33.9這個禮拜那這個是政府調降50%貨物稅然後才有這個數字沒有錯吧這是其中一個原因這是其中一個原因那減增50%的貨物稅預計會導致國庫每個月短縮數十億那你交通部跟中油這邊經濟部這邊有沒有精算過如果封鎖超過三個月的話那這樣子我們的庫存可以撐多久"},{"start":205.566,"end":212.438,"text":"我想這個沒有問題 在量的部分 中央公司都已經有掌握可以從其他的來源 董事長也請您說明是在什麼樣的前提之下呢"},{"start":213.355,"end":238.787,"text":"原油的部分的進口可以除了中東以外還有其他的油源可以從其他地方來找這個替代的油源譬如說像非洲譬如說像美國像澳洲您提到有其他國家啦那其實在111年的時候那時候吳俄戰爭的時候那交通部這邊有提到說要找其他的替代能源那三年過去了交通部這邊目前有沒有其他替代能源"},{"start":245.718,"end":262.872,"text":"我想那個整個國際上的油價的一個漲跌確實是對航空也造成影響不過我們都有燃油附加費那至於替代能源的部分國際上現在可行的就是我們所謂的這個航空永續燃油那這個部分的話我們中油跟台塑去年有5900噸"},{"start":265.754,"end":293.947,"text":"那今年也會有八千噸那我想全球來講因為可以用的就是我們講的這個航空燃油跟這個永續燃油那局長您這邊是提到航空附加費嗎那現在目前航空的燃油它成本是在航空大約百分之三十到四十這個數字沒有錯吧那現在我們的航空的附加費調整是依據民航局你們合併的機制是隨著新加坡航空的燃油價格去做連動的嗎基本上是根據中油公告的油價"},{"start":294.927,"end":318.714,"text":"我們之前看到國際油價在短時間內就暴漲了71%那附加費它調升會直接衝擊到出口然後還有出國的民眾那你們這邊有沒有一個公式調整的公式跟委員報告我們基本上是這樣短程線我們是用國際線就是用一頭油10塊錢美金如果漲10塊美金我們短程線就加2.5美元"},{"start":320.074,"end":334.549,"text":"那長程線是加6.5美元所以原本短程線是17.5那因為他4月1號公告的我們換算回來大概是200一桶是203塊所以就要調到45塊直接直接"},{"start":335.35,"end":350.922,"text":"那現在國際形勢的關係那你們有沒有設定一個上限或是有一個緩衝的機制呢基本上因為現在的油價已經算是過去以來的最高價那我想未來的油價的趨勢我們也會跟中油保持密切聯繫來做觀察"},{"start":353.965,"end":368.5,"text":"那部長那這邊這一次的報告都是提到就是動漲動漲的部分然後補貼那像針對我們國內的大徐雲的運輸大客車計程車還有貨物業有沒有其他的政策性的補助像委員報告針對公共運輸是我們第一波"},{"start":369.261,"end":386.684,"text":"公共運輸的部分我們先優先來處理那其他的部分可能到第二波因為戰爭到底發生多久我們不曉得再來油價的影響到底多長的時間我們不曉得那我們第一波會先處理公共運輸就是基本民心的部分那這個部分我們會先做討論那第二波委員剛剛在提醒的這些我們也都會納入討論"},{"start":388.386,"end":400.06,"text":"我這邊有看到報告裡面都是在講價格然後還有運能這一方面除了票價的動漲吸收油價還有附加費那航空公司接下來有沒有可能面臨減班或是航線的調整"},{"start":401.397,"end":426.352,"text":"在國內航線的部分比較沒有這方面的影響因為我們的這個票價那個油價的部分我們有做協助那國際的部分目前看到也是有一些航班確實在做整併他們定位率比較不高的航班跟航線那確實有些航空公司選擇先取消這些航班但整體來說它的影響只有千分之三的航班目前夏季班表看起來只有影響到千分之三所以影響並不大"},{"start":427.506,"end":447.043,"text":"我這邊提到航線的問題是因為我也是看到吳俄戰爭那時候附加費它的增加它的級數是好幾個級數這樣子在增加那當時就已經有引發民眾的反彈那這一次的附加費它的計算方式它的漲跌跟連動是不是可以更加透明呢 局長"},{"start":449.056,"end":469.557,"text":"我想剛剛我剛剛講的其實就是17.5他大概成長了11個應該是差不多11個級距乘以2.5短程線所以他會變45那另外一個一樣6.5直接乘所以基本上他這個燃油附加費在客運來講因為他是國際線他就是反映那國內線是剛剛講的環長"},{"start":471.619,"end":491.608,"text":"所以這個相關的公告航空公司也是公告了以後在7天後生效4月1號公告4月7號生效所以基本上這個機制也是從過去以來應該是從已經很早期大概96年以來97年以來就運作了這樣的機制也經歷了烏俄戰爭的一個高油價"},{"start":492.188,"end":516.978,"text":"那當然這一次又比烏鵝戰爭更加的嚴重可是我們還會持續觀察整個油價剛剛中油所說的這個量足那價到底會在哪裡我們會跟中油這邊再保持密切聯繫這邊最後再請教部長一個問題因為有其他國家他的通膨率已經衝到4.1了嘛那他們也有提出考慮要調降燃料稅燃料負稅那我們這邊會跟進嗎"},{"start":519.16,"end":529.152,"text":"會朝這樣的方向去做研議嗎後續如果朝這個方向如果影響很長遠的話我們針對氣燃費的部分我們會來做討論OK好好好這邊再向部長了解"}]}},{"id":"168581","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168581","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ec77822e2e6eae35cd21c9cd278af59ba64134b0f452f2ee6b800412f8d870b4e5686418a82e3265ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許智傑","委員發言時間":"11:39:43 - 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謝謝 其實這一次的我想中東的狀況大家都很難估計"},{"start":38.308,"end":58.07,"text":"也希望說我們不管是油還是這些票價問題交通部能夠盡量協助其他的我想該進步還是要進步我想謝謝我們民航局事實上也一直都很辛苦在我們高雄在努力"},{"start":59.251,"end":83.816,"text":"不過就是說我們整體的案件還是要注意之前那個虎航掌鍋事件這個部長應該知道吧是知道有看到新聞那這個案件呢我們從兩個角度來看一個就是機場那個航空公司他們當然會處理就是說將來列入黑名單的部分這個是必要的一個動作"},{"start":84.926,"end":113.15,"text":"但是我們在想說整個飛航安全是不是應該一併做考量所以關於這個黑名單的問題現在是只有各個航空公司自己的黑名單嗎還是我們民航局會有一個整體的思考像委員報告目前看起來航空公司他們會做自己的考量包含危險的客人或者是配合度比較低的客人會做限制搭船的部分那目前民航局是沒有做這方面的限制"},{"start":113.632,"end":125.946,"text":"我現在有個具體建議事實上我們銀行局跟交通部可以做一個思考就是說在銀行的徵信大家都知道信用不好的會有一個聯合徵信中心"},{"start":127.828,"end":153.491,"text":"那這個信用不好的人 事實上你今天在機場發生一個這個尤其是飛機上發生這個斬鍋事件一來就是要保護我們的飛行人員以及服務人員的安全之外另外就是會影響到顧客的品質所以就是說這個只要發生一件 有可能你在今天坐這艘飛機的顧客心情都不太好"},{"start":155.047,"end":172.806,"text":"所以類似這樣子一個惡意打人的事件我覺得這個是在飛機上是非常嚴重的事那是不是我們從公部門的角度不只是航空公司個別的管理就是在整個民航的管理方面是不是有個不一樣的思考"},{"start":173.567,"end":196.536,"text":"像委員報告我們目前我們的民用航空法裡面其實有相關的罰則啦如果真的發生相關的事件那民航警局他們都會依法來處理那該處罰都會處罰所以我是這樣建議齁但是委員在建議的就是說有沒有可能航空公司跟民航局的所屬的一些航空工廠站也好大家來做協調這個我們後續來做討論就是說我今天"},{"start":202.185,"end":219.59,"text":"銀行的信用不好的認證中心他都會互相可以去查閱然後當然銀行你要不要貸款給這個信用不好的人銀行自己要負責但是我至少查得到說這個人曾經在其他的銀行信用不好"},{"start":220.97,"end":245.441,"text":"那我的黑名單如果有一個類似聯合處理中心的話就是說我今天不管在虎航不管在華航任何航空公司發生這一種事件除了你個別航空公司把它定為黑名單之外是不是有一個聯合中心可以讓我查得到那當然你航空公司要不要讓它屬於黑名單的部分要不要讓它搭乘的部分航空公司自己會決定嘛"},{"start":246.209,"end":266.81,"text":"那我們是不是多一個這樣子的機制可以讓航空公司多一個參考那避免就是這一種人會更多這個對他會有嚇阻作用啦那我想不管是機上的安全跟乘客的品質這個是整體可以做一個思考的是不是交通部跟航空局、民航局可以做一個這樣子的思考"},{"start":267.242,"end":285.753,"text":"是 謝謝委員 您在關心的這個方向 很有建設性也很好那我所知道是華航公司 現在整個集團 他們其實是聯合通報的華航 我請高董來說一下 華航集團所有的航空公司 大家其實是聯合在一起通報的"},{"start":286.978,"end":299.147,"text":"對於這種類似在飛機上面會造成我們困擾的我們叫做不再提供服務的旅客這名單我們集團裡面我們是所以就是華航華信"},{"start":301.671,"end":316.316,"text":"這三家跟其他航空公司就沒臉嘛對不對那有沒有機會民航局就是我們就是以民航的角度不是以單一航空公司的角度啦是不是可以做一個這樣一個整體的思考"},{"start":317.163,"end":338.871,"text":"跟維園報告確實如果是從在機上服務避免這些旅客有影響那當然有一個黑名單的制度就是說看起來是一個可行方向不過因為我想這個黑名單的制度如果擴及到所有的航空公司都一樣的話那涉及的就是我們台灣也是海島其實到有些地方一定要靠航空運輸"},{"start":339.711,"end":367.853,"text":"所以我想這個問題其實可能要從幾個面向再去思考那容我們後面我們再找學者專家然後來進一步思考我的意思是這樣局長也可以思考一下我不是說他全部都列為共同的黑名單不是啦就是剛剛我講為什麼聯合徵信中心會說這個人就信用不好信用不好是我查得到但是呢他航空公司那個銀行要不要借錢給他銀行自己做決定嘛"},{"start":369.312,"end":395.504,"text":"那航空公司說他曾經在其他航空公司也曾經打人的曾經這種表現不好的我就做一個例子的嘛那你今天航空公司彼此可以查得到嘛那你要不要把他列為黑名單航空公司有時候會自己去斟酌嘛甚至他要剔除黑名單要什麼方式以後要怎麼承諾要怎麼樣表現這個是航空公司跟他個別的事情那也就是說黑名單"},{"start":396.872,"end":421.902,"text":"是航空公司自己跟個人的事但是我有一個聯合的處理中心就是說我會記錄曾經在飛機上尤其是打過人這個算是嚴重的事件我要把它記錄下來那我在雖然他在其他航空公司在虎航打過人但是我今天是長榮航空也可以知道他曾經這一個人就是在虎航打過人類似這樣子的選擇他們會自己最後去做決定"},{"start":423.234,"end":439.822,"text":"那這只是一個參考我相信這個參考應該對於要求對於要求在飛機上再發生這種重複事件的案例就可以少很多 它會怕啦不然它拍了之後不能坐飛機對它來說也損失很大謝謝委員您的這個建議我們會來做參考也會來做討論這個再麻煩斟酌一下那再來就是這個行動電源行動電源我們現在4月1號有新制"},{"start":450.426,"end":474.214,"text":"那就是說將來行動電源可以帶上機場的就帶上飛機的就兩個嘛那禁止充電嘛那這個其實我們現在現在是宣導階段還是處罰階段剛剛委員報告已經4月8號開始直施了然後基本上就是如果有違反規定的話就依照民用航空法來執行"},{"start":476.661,"end":501.783,"text":"這個其實看起來是小事卻是大事啦你看韓國釜山航空曾經因為一顆行動電池造成整個飛機燒起來所以這是看起來是很小的事但是實際這影響飛案也很大所以我是建議就是說現在人民可能現在都不見得普遍有這個觀念所以希望民防局可以再多宣導"},{"start":502.52,"end":527.415,"text":"好 謝謝委員我們在各航空公站還有航空公司包含觀光署這邊我們都有全部在實施前就有一個宣導期甚至將來有沒有可能像韓國這麼嚴格這個也都是考量的範圍是 這個我們會持續這個非常很重要最後一個我簡單再問一下就是說謝謝我們民航局就是說我高雄現在安檢的部分有三條線嘛"},{"start":528.536,"end":548.193,"text":"那現在民防局打算四條先這個先謝謝部長跟局長這部分讓我們高雄將來可以更快速但是還有一個越快速的像那個美國那個Clear Plus它們這些它是年費蠻好玩的年費一年大概六千台幣"},{"start":550.04,"end":565.247,"text":"速度就快很多他就是照臉你所有的證件之前就先審核通過然後呢你通過之後你就是走過去臉一照你就可以快速通關了那這個部分台灣現在還沒有做是不是有這個規劃可以儘快"},{"start":569.582,"end":594.674,"text":"我想跟委員報告確實如果有這樣的一個通關快速的作業快速的通道然後讓我們一些安檢作業不用人工的去做處理是比較快的那基本上這個部分我們松山機場這個部分已經有跟這個航空公司還有這個建置的服務商其實有做一個一個招標案那目前也剛好大概建置好可是在測試期間"},{"start":596.135,"end":624.329,"text":"那對於整個系統因為高雄也有它的特性還有包含它的空間所以基本上我們也會請高雄來研究然後也會參考松山機場的案例所以現在松山機場已經招標出去了對 它基本上是已經出去了可是它是真的我聽到的是桃園機場我們桃園機場也在配合T3航廈 未來也會建置所以會有 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謝謝主席那請我們石部長還有我們行政院經貿談判辦公室的徐秘書請石部長 請徐秘書督委員好"},{"start":25.538,"end":48.912,"text":"好 謝謝部長那我這個先請教一下我們徐秘書請問一下我們台美互惠貿易協定就是ART那時候針對我們在今年針對美國農產品還有就是我們豬肾牛肉還有汽車醫藥市場針對這些開放的承諾是今年開放對不對"},{"start":50.533,"end":75.455,"text":"這一年簽訂的對不對對這個是2月簽訂的內容那包括了您剛有提到了有些部分是屬於這個關稅的部分有些是屬於非關稅措施的部分是2月12號簽訂嘛是那針對像我們美國農產品我們豬肾牛肉這些開放我們放寬萊克多巴胺放寬這個標準那在這部分我們在簽訂之前"},{"start":77.637,"end":96.956,"text":"我請問一下 那像我們衛福部 農業部知道我們有放寬這個標準嗎知道 其實我們那個談判團隊都是一起一起工作的 一起討論所以知情嘛 即使去美國談判也是相關部會也都是有代表所以就是衛福部跟農業部在我們簽訂之前大家都討論過所以都是知情的 是"},{"start":98.497,"end":113.774,"text":"那石部長也在現場嘛那所以我沒有在現場不過這個前面在前置作業上呢相關的要簽訂的內容上我們都有經過一些評估好那所以在這簽訂之前石部長也是了解我們針對"},{"start":114.935,"end":136.116,"text":"我們這個瘦肉精這個萊劑的部分我們簽訂是預計就是要再放寬嘛應該是說來follow這個國際的標準就是按照Codex的標準這樣就是比之前再放寬嘛就是按照Codex標準但是比我們之前是放寬的嘛部分的部分做調整對部分是放寬的部分調整就像我們"},{"start":137.637,"end":146.621,"text":"就是我們講豬腰的部分好像從本來的0.04ppm放寬到0.09ppm我們應該是這樣講Codex的標準還有日韓的標準都是0.09那我們目前是0.04那未來我們會進行一些專家的討論跟作業"},{"start":156.866,"end":174.54,"text":"所以後來簽訂就是知道就是要比之前還放寬啦對就是比照CODES的標準好所以這部分部長是知情的那但是我們其實我們是針對我們美國貿易障礙評估報告就是NTE"},{"start":175.18,"end":190.914,"text":"後來公布之後他在3月31號公布後來我們國人才知道這件事情所以其實簽訂的時候內容我們是並不知道的那等到美國公布這份評估報告之後後來我們才知道"},{"start":191.474,"end":210.215,"text":"原來針對這一部分像我們美國剛剛我們講的豬腎牛肉這一部分我們針對瘦肉精的部分是要放寬的我們是後來等美國這個報告出來之後我們才知情應該是在ART裡面就已經有提到了"},{"start":211.496,"end":238.763,"text":"但是我們國人知道的時候是等到美國公布我們才知道的因為事先並沒有ART風布的時候就知道就是在簽約這個下簽這個對等貿易談判的時候對對但是我是說那你們你們談判辦公室跟行政院知道但是國人是等到美國這個評估報告出來其實國人才真正知道這件事情應該不是評估報告是最近的事情是之前那個ART"},{"start":239.463,"end":255.705,"text":"在二月的時候好那部長我請問一下那我們針對這部分開放那我們在做這個開放之前我們有沒有做安全的評估報告甚至還有針對食品衛生安全還有營養的諮議會我們有開過嗎有"},{"start":258.868,"end":285.169,"text":"跟委員說明 那麼我們也比對了我們跟我們現在的相對的這個萊克多巴胺的MRL的這個訂定的標準跟日韓等國以及CODES的落差那麼這裡面的最大落差主要是在腎臟所以我們在腎臟的使用的這個安全風險的部分去年有委託這個專家在進行這個健康風險的評估跟建議容許量"},{"start":286.49,"end":312.267,"text":"所以我們今年有這個評估報告嗎去年有去年所以我們提得出這個評估報告有有有我們有評估報告但是食品衛生安全及營養這支議會沒有開專家會議的部分因為這後續要進行的程序我們現在還沒有正式修訂嘛所以未來要修訂的時候自然就要經過這個程序我希望這部分要趕快做因為其實像蔡政府時期啊她在2020年"},{"start":313.368,"end":336.614,"text":"他8月中旬有公布說要在2021年元旦也是要正式開放讓我們這個標準放寬可是那時候我們也有針對說沒有做安全評估報告這些有提出疑議所以當時他雖然前面沒有做可是後來他馬上在8月底的時候就馬上提出報告所以我們2月"},{"start":338.536,"end":350.689,"text":"簽訂然後到三月底其實公布之後國人才正式知道這個事情可是目前我們看到四月中我們這也沒有看到這安全評估報告還有專家學者這會議也沒有開"},{"start":356.229,"end":370.991,"text":"跟委員說明我們這一次其實已經提早在去年就完成這個健康風險評估的報告所以這個報告再送請給委員參考那後面的修訂的程序我們會按照法定的作業程序來進行"},{"start":371.832,"end":393.654,"text":"好 那我希望部長還有我們署長在這邊我們盡快把這個報告給我們胃膀委員會大家知道你之前做的這個評估報告還有專家學者這個食品衛生安全跟營養的諮議會也要趕快開讓民眾真正能夠了解放寬這個來劑之後對我們有沒有什麼其他的影響"},{"start":394.335,"end":421.391,"text":"因為我們要知道我們國人其實大家都知道其實像我們在萊劑他在肌肉殘留的部分沒有那麼高但是他在肝腎內臟的部分殘留是比較高的然後其實以飲食習慣來講歐美來講歐美的民眾一般他們是不吃內臟的但是我們國人的飲食習慣尤其我們婦女孕婦坐月子還有我們常常"},{"start":422.171,"end":445.8,"text":"我們國人會習慣吃一些什麼黑白切之類像我們豬肉啊還有肝啊腎啊還有什麼大腸什麼等等其實我們國人因為我們的我們自己養殖的豬我們是沒有打這個瘦肉精沒有打萊克多巴胺所以我們對於內臟的使用的部分我們包含孕婦啊坐月子等等我們都有習慣性是去吃這個內臟"},{"start":449.682,"end":456.364,"text":"那所以針對開放這部分將來這內臟你看從0.04ppm要開放到0.09ppm相對的這對於我們將來飲食習慣會常吃內臟對於我們對這安全評估報告我們希望也能夠了解因為這國人飲食習慣跟歐美是不一樣的"},{"start":472.15,"end":479.839,"text":"我們在做健康風險評估的時候 也考量了國人的飲食習慣去做的調教去年的就有這樣的參考 把肝腎都特別的著重那也考量到坐月子的時候的婦女的食用量去做的評估"},{"start":492.092,"end":514.738,"text":"第二個呢那我們當然除了我們自己的標準我們也會對照其他國家像日韓跟我們飲食習慣比較相近的那他們的標準也是按照CODES所以我們希望這安全評估報告一定要加入國人針對這內臟的飲食習慣這部分一定要加入因為這確實我們跟我們飲食習慣是不一樣的好的 好"},{"start":515.558,"end":533.633,"text":"那還有針對美國貿易障礙報告我們看到它針對我們跟台灣比較有關係的重點剛剛我也有聽到其他委員也有在質疑現在我們這標準放寬之後我們以後針對這茶廠還有邊境這茶宴的部分"},{"start":534.734,"end":552.786,"text":"是不是應該更嚴格因為我們現在把標準放寬我們也擔心標準放寬你說0.01 0.04 0.09ppm但是你沒有去查驗我們擔心他甚至是超過甚至是更高的照來講現在放寬應該要查驗的更嚴格才對"},{"start":553.466,"end":568.951,"text":"根本說明我們從源頭就管理就源頭就包含要系統性查核那麼同時呢也有查場的機制所以源頭的部分會把關那邊境的話我們也會有這個抽驗那如果有抽到我們還會提升這個抽驗的批次"},{"start":569.491,"end":587.271,"text":"那另外在後市場的部分也嚴格的會做好這個標示產地的標示所以不論是散裝包裝或者是飲食場所都要明確的標示所使用的原產地所以這個我們都會把關所以其實今天為什麼會提出來其實我們看到"},{"start":587.952,"end":611.637,"text":"美國公布的這障礙報告針對涉台的重點我們看他針對美豬的部分看他寫台無正當理由下不對處理美豬台業者反覆稽查降低採購意願所以他在講他怕降低採購意願所以變成你沒有正當理由你不能反覆去抽查也就是說"},{"start":612.597,"end":637.399,"text":"你不能沒有理由你就去查驗可是我們的標準就是我就是要不斷的抽驗啊我不能等到發生問題之後有狀況發生我們才去查驗所以針對這個涉台重點好像跟部長講的好像不太一樣變成說你要去查驗要有理由那我們的標準是我就是要不斷的查驗尤其開放之後我標準要更高我查驗要更嚴格才對啊"},{"start":637.979,"end":660.856,"text":"跟委員說明我們在邊境的查驗都是採風險極速的風就是你長期都沒有查到有問題的他就降低查驗的批次那但是如果你被驗到有問題的就會提升抽驗的批次所以在有限的人力之下我們採風險查驗抽驗的方式在進行邊境的把關所以這個標準不會改變"},{"start":662.938,"end":677.692,"text":"好我希望部長因為我們看到他公布的其實我們是有餘力我剛講的是美豬你看他對美牛台阿特承諾解除特定美牛產口美牛產品進口禁令取消繁瑣"},{"start":678.953,"end":695.323,"text":"輸入口岸檢疫程序你看喔他針對美牛這個進口禁令他說叫我們要取消繁瑣輸入口岸檢這個檢疫的程序變成說他在要求我們不能"},{"start":696.445,"end":716.947,"text":"查驗這麼嚴格應該是這個有關美牛的部分是有另外一個議題他不是這個殘留量主要是這個BSE也就是我們常講的這個狂牛症那麼過去的BSE這個美國被這個在2013年的時候是被歸類在"},{"start":718.448,"end":739.16,"text":"風險可控制的國家啦所以我們有一些是禁止他進來可是他後來已經被改列為這個風險可忽略就是最安全等級按照這個WOLF的就是世界動物這個健康組織的規範呢他是全牛都可以進來所以他已經被改列了我們沒有這個與時的調整再加上這個"},{"start":742.822,"end":754.129,"text":"2023年的時候也重新定義了這個BSE分為只有典型的BSE才是風險物所以我們要根據它去做調整它指的是說我們沒有與時俱進的這個風險調整部長沒關係 其實喔"},{"start":757.851,"end":776.084,"text":"我就講說針對其實我們看到他這個報告涉台重點對於我們來講要嚴格查驗可是針對他的報告其實看起來是要我們放寬而且還告訴我們說沒有正當理由你就不能去查然後也不能那麼繁瑣要取消繁瑣"},{"start":776.844,"end":789.833,"text":"所以這跟我們講的茶廠跟邊境茶葉我們說放寬標準應該要更嚴格可是看起來他要求是我們要更寬鬆所以我希望部長還是要針對我們的食安防線現在我們這個標準你說因為對於美國關稅的問題去做這個談判的協議我們放寬可是我覺得國安這個食安的防線我們還是要堅守我們的最底線因為這個食品食安的問題"},{"start":805.263,"end":833.058,"text":"還是希望我們衛福部能夠堅守是食安跟健康的把關我們會堅守對啊因為我們看這報告好像跟部長講的好像不太一樣但是我希望我們還是要嚴格查驗這個食安的問題沒有繁瑣的問題只有標準我們雖然標準放寬可是我們查驗一定要更加的嚴格還有我們針對牛脂牛血這半成品"},{"start":834.161,"end":853.767,"text":"那他這個這部分他的來機的部分有查驗嗎他有數據嗎這個主要是做飼料這個不是進入所以他沒有針對他的來機的殘留的標準沒有數據沒有查驗沒有他是進入到飼料進入飼料但是他進來是半成品嘛半成品然後後來進來乾燥做飼料對不對"},{"start":860.501,"end":876.494,"text":"應該是沒有進來過目前美方沒有對我說將來這個牛脂牛血進來是要做飼料是嗎對做飼料做飼料做飼料它是不是用乾燥的方式來說明一下跟委員會"},{"start":878.018,"end":899.591,"text":"是,跟委員報告,如果是牛油脂進來的話,它是精煉過後的產品,那就是作為飼料的部分的原料,那血粉的話,它就是已經噴霧乾燥之後的,也是作為飼料添加的一部分?對啊,就是到化製廠做成肉骨粉或者血粉添加,然後給豬吃嘛,做成飼料給豬吃嘛。"},{"start":900.982,"end":919.773,"text":"我們在國內的話那個飼料管理法有規定就是它在這個反除動物化是不能夠使用的所以不會有BSE傳播的風險我們現在擔心的就是我們我們國內養豬是不是不能添加瘦肉精不能添加萊劑對不對我們這個國內養豬是嚴格的標準因為其實我們國內剛剛有講國內國人的飲食習慣因為內臟這些我們都會吃所以這個就是我們"},{"start":930.379,"end":957.188,"text":"台灣豬為什麼溫體豬大家國人可以安心食用因為我們的養殖辦法我們養殖的方式我們不去添加這些瘦肉精等等所以我們內臟都可以食用可是我們現在擔心的是你牛脂牛血將來做飼料它乾燥我們乾燥之後把這些水分去掉之後其實它乾燥之後它的來劑的比例是會增加的"},{"start":958.424,"end":982.225,"text":"那如果給豬吃我們有沒有這個數據豬吃這個飼料之後會不會殘留在我們台灣豬的體內跟委員報告依據我們這個飼料管理法的規定如果是這個反芻動物跟豬的話都是不能用這些肉骨粉、血粉作為飼料的原料的所以剛剛委員考量的這些品項是不會進到豬的飼料鏈的"},{"start":984.887,"end":1011.125,"text":"這些也不能給豬吃嘛好我希望這部分一定要注意因為你做成飼料之後我們一定要嚴格把關我怕做成飼料之後那會不會礙於成本等等的問題他拿出給豬吃那豬吃了含有這個萊劑的這些飼料會被殘留在豬的體內變成本來豬沒有打瘦肉精結果他因為吃了飼料以後反而殘留在體內"},{"start":1013.328,"end":1026.057,"text":"所以這部分我如果說豬不能吃我希望我們衛福部還有我們主管單位這部分一定要嚴格來把關因為我們現在也擔心你看我們現在台灣豬農其實真的很擔心我們現在因為關稅的問題我們開放開放他進口"},{"start":1031.081,"end":1049.112,"text":"那其實為什麼要打這個瘦肉精打瘦肉精其實每頭豬的成本可以減5%到10%可以省下來這個成本那我們美國他打這個瘦肉精的豬本來成本就比我們便宜再加上我們要取消99%的關稅的減免那以後台灣豬農要何去何從"},{"start":1054.375,"end":1057.536,"text":"你們有沒有顧慮到我們臺灣豬農本來他又要顧環保又要顧飼料成本他成本會提個更高結果美國豬他打瘦肉精養的本來他的成本就很低又減低他的關稅以後這對臺灣豬農的衝擊我們有沒有考量過跟委員報告就是說在"},{"start":1075.721,"end":1098.651,"text":"這個豬肉的部分國人還是習慣食用這個國產豬啦所以進口的這個豬肉的呢只佔我們全部的大概8%而已那其中又來自於美國豬的比例又更低所以美國的豬肉只佔整個進口豬的大概一點多個%所以其實是很低啦 是很低啦"},{"start":1099.211,"end":1121.023,"text":"所以對於過去這幾年我們都密切的在關注國人的飲食還是習慣是國產豬進口豬的影響不大好 所以我們還是要堅守我們這個豬肉的產地這個標示不管你是散裝等等一定要嚴格這個豬肉產地的標示過去我們不斷的在稽查"},{"start":1121.723,"end":1143.393,"text":"不論是散裝包裝或飲食場所都要明確標示原產地好所以剛剛部長你也講到一個重點因為我們吃台灣豬台灣豬溫體豬因為他沒有打萊劑所以我們安心使用所以我剛剛就講我們真的是擔心說到時候他又吃到了這飼料還有萊劑把我們整個台灣豬這個"},{"start":1144.994,"end":1169.956,"text":"這個政治標記又把它毀掉到時候萬一我們台灣豬結果又驗出裡面又有萊劑結果它成本又高那美國豬進來成本又低到時候對他們來講是雪上加霜所以這個部分不單是食安的問題還有我們台灣豬農這個權益我們要如何照顧我們的豬農也希望我們這一部分一定要嚴格把關所以針對剛剛講我們之前"},{"start":1172.458,"end":1177.961,"text":"我們針對萊劑這個風險評估報告那部長說有做針對國人我們飲食習慣這報告盡快提供給我們還有這專家學者的針對他們食品安全衛生營養的諮議會趕快開還有我們針對我們剩下剛剛我們講的針對"},{"start":1195.269,"end":1218.159,"text":"萊豬的部分還有牛的部分一定都要跟我們嚴格把關產地的部分一定要標示清楚還有絕對不能讓我們台灣豬去吃到含有萊劑用牛脂牛血的這樣乾燥的飼料讓我們萊豬去吃到一定要嚴格把關好 完全同意這個委員的看法我們會來執行好 謝謝好 謝謝謝謝童訊局委員的質詢"}]}},{"id":"168590","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168590","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ec77822e2e6eae37e3a9a4c3c2061e98ea785098ebfecd577f1ea19c72f00142f230d750febacb15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王正旭","委員發言時間":"12:48:53 - 13:04:50","影片長度":"00:15:57","會議時間":"2026-04-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、行政院經貿談判辦公室、經濟部、農業部、教育部就「美國貿易代表署發布《2026年各國貿易評估報告》（2026NTE）提及技術性貿易壁壘或食品安全檢驗與動植物防疫檢疫SPS）壁壘之豬肉、牛肉與牛肉產品、β促進劑的最大殘留容許量等各項食農相關產品及技術之要求，我國所承諾之措施、移除產品禁令或取消輸入口岸檢疫程序等，並特就其中開放切片馬鈴薯帶芽（或腐爛或發黴）仍能整批進口與其敦促撤銷基改食品進校園，對我國食品安全造成之衝擊與因應作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n\n邀請衛生福利部、農業部、行政院消費者保護處就「寵物用藥新制上路在即，犬貓及非經濟動物急重症醫療銜接、藥品流向管理、飼主取得可近性與消費權益保障之整體配套」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n\n【專題報告綜合詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-04-15","start_time":"2026-04-15T12:48:53+08:00","end_time":"2026-04-15T13:04:50+08:00","duration":957,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":5,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-5-26-6"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.915343750000002,"end":16.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.51784375,"end":18.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.85909375,"end":19.926593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.23034375,"end":20.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.27659375,"end":21.512843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.816593750000003,"end":23.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.85846875,"end":38.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.629718750000002,"end":29.882843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.41409375,"end":32.430968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.455343750000004,"end":39.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.87284375,"end":47.078468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.24721875,"end":50.23409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.38596875,"end":63.210968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.70034375,"end":111.86159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.99659375,"end":112.51971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.68846875000001,"end":135.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.46534375000002,"end":157.98096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.85846875000001,"end":182.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.63096875000002,"end":258.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.71284375000002,"end":253.99971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.92784375000002,"end":255.40034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.58971875000003,"end":288.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.98159375,"end":315.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.74534375,"end":355.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.11034375,"end":395.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395.74971875,"end":445.98659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":443.75909375000003,"end":444.11346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":445.98659375000005,"end":468.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":468.68346875000003,"end":470.72534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":471.60284375000003,"end":490.87409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":491.21159375,"end":508.87971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":509.53784375000004,"end":534.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":534.81659375,"end":535.1203437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":535.9640937500001,"end":566.9297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":556.9734687499999,"end":557.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":566.28846875,"end":585.3740937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":585.9309687500001,"end":594.3684687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":594.30096875,"end":614.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":594.6047187500001,"end":596.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":597.20346875,"end":597.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":610.7878437500001,"end":611.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":613.0828437499999,"end":655.6753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":655.84409375,"end":662.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":662.6953437500001,"end":665.6315937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":666.12096875,"end":678.0515937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":678.25409375,"end":681.2747187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":681.91596875,"end":686.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":686.8940937500001,"end":702.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":702.84096875,"end":713.2022187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":713.5734687500001,"end":722.0278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":716.9822187500001,"end":717.4209687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":722.21346875,"end":727.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":727.5290937500001,"end":728.8959687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":729.4865937500001,"end":735.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":735.8484687499999,"end":782.8115937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":783.53721875,"end":803.1459687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":793.4428437500001,"end":793.9153437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":803.1459687500001,"end":810.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":810.16596875,"end":810.9253437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8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謝謝主席我們還是再請一下部長跟江署長好 有請施部長 江署長好 汪岩好部長 請看 署長好今天有兩三個問題來請教一下部長跟署長第一個就是公開健康風險評估報告第二個就是強化食安前端的預防還有後端的這個稽查的量能"},{"start":38.883,"end":55.883,"text":"最後一個小題目就是診所受護醫師的加保權益請教一下部長其實這個題目大家都已經請教過部長好幾次不過我們還是很相信對民眾有一個很透明的資訊是非常非常的重要"},{"start":56.323,"end":84.244,"text":"那以這次簽署這個台美對等貿易協定ART為例我們知道國人會非常非常的在意相關的一些議題尤其是在於美豬美牛這個進口管理上早上部長也有非常確認除了書面報告裡面也口頭再度強調堅持四大不變這四大不變就是包括這個敏感品項禁令不變"},{"start":85.104,"end":108.055,"text":"還有原產地標示不變校園採購國產不變還有就是食安管理制度機制不變這四大不變之下國人還是會擔心的有關於國人健康的項目就是這次在ART裡面會開放絞肉跟部分的內臟進口以及來自於標準的這個改裁"},{"start":108.855,"end":135.357,"text":"Codex的國際新標準這個我們不是臨床醫師嗎對這個國人的健康真的非常非常的重視不過有沒有未來健康真的不是一個人說了算他一定要有好的科學證據這個是一個很重要社會溝通的基礎那我們看2019年其實那時候也有發生類似的狀況那就有公告一個非常透過"},{"start":136.518,"end":152.011,"text":"成功大學李教授的一個風險健康評估這樣的一份內容讓民眾就非常的安心知道在這種推估之下對國人健康造成的影響那早上也有蠻多委員針對這個議題請教的部長那請問一下"},{"start":154.953,"end":182.21,"text":"我們目前針對在新的標準之下新的這些狀況之下這個健康風險評估的報告有沒有機會很快透過確定以後就能夠公開給大家做確認那同時呢什麼時候會提交給這個食安執意會來做最後確認跟討論這部分可以有一個比較好的承諾方式嗎"},{"start":183.68,"end":213.54,"text":"好 跟委員說明就是說我們大概在所有訂定這些標準的時候第一個會參考國際標準第二個會進行這個健康風險評估所以這兩個我們都會一併考慮的所以在這一次可能會調整的一個是屬於BSE風險的部分也就是所謂狂牛症風險的部分那我們按照國際的標準重新認定所謂的BSE風險來自於典型的BSE"},{"start":214.08,"end":231.806,"text":"那麼排除因為老化之後的這個BSE所以這個是根據國際標準來重新做這個定義那第二個呢是殘留標準的部分那那個都做過這個健康風險評估那麼參考了這個考慮了這個國人的飲食習慣跟國際標準還有相關鄰國的這個標準之後那麼來訂定的所以這個"},{"start":241.129,"end":258.509,"text":"健康風險評估我們都會公告在食藥署的有一個食品風險評估的專區裡面來給大家參考目前歷年都有所以我們再review一下有沒有漏放的"},{"start":258.629,"end":274.994,"text":"好如果是有把這個報告能夠讓民眾很安心的話我相信這個對民眾來講他們在選用這些產品的時候呢就更有所依據是好那第二部分就是強化死案前端的預防跟後端稽查的量能的部分"},{"start":276.955,"end":291.842,"text":"最近八卦在二月四月份的時候剛好是清明節嘛就有一個市場在高雄有個正義市場春泉的食物撞毒案那在去年的十月份呢也有台中"},{"start":292.822,"end":315.136,"text":"風雲烤肉 烤鴨店一些狀況出現讓民眾來講有這麼多的外食或者是大家在利用節慶的時候準備食物過程當中好像會有一些擔心這種擔心如果層出不窮的話我相信對民眾死的安全真的是要有很大很大要再加強的地方"},{"start":315.876,"end":332.197,"text":"那所以加強檢驗一直是我們這個十三五環裡面很重要的一環那現在基本上就承諾要加強這個邊境檢驗跟後市場稽查的管理自己都不會改變那我們看到這些狀況出現就會想要那個人力到底是不是"},{"start":332.857,"end":354.96,"text":"除了這些制度以外人力上面也沒有問題在去年其實就在爭取了更多的人力行政院也針對於邊境輸入查案的部分也增加了人力從增加了24位變成到105人可是我們好像目前還沒有辦法補到"},{"start":356.842,"end":374.602,"text":"這麼完整的人力好像看起來只有到85人在這個部分做工作那貨市場機場的部分只要數目前有79位的這些貨市場機場的人員好像比原來80人還要少7位很顯然"},{"start":375.823,"end":395.156,"text":"這是這麼重的工作對這些同仁來講可能有一些在招募人才的部分受到很大的限制所以這部分不知道部長怎麼來幫助署長或者是署長有哪些問題可以讓大家知道一下這個人力的招募目前的狀況如何"},{"start":395.956,"end":406.21,"text":"跟委員說明,當然行政院支持我們多增加人力,但是這一些特別是邊境查驗全年無休,隨時機場有進來我們就可能需要這樣。"},{"start":412.919,"end":440.844,"text":"那後市場的稽查也有相關的風險所以雖然我們有容額但是不見得照得滿所以我們現在也在研議呢應該在薪資條件的部分也應該要予以提升啦那比較能夠螺翅到這些人力那長期以來雖然我們有薪資的調整可是在專業的部分還有這些所謂危險的佳績的部分我們來爭取看看"},{"start":443.125,"end":470.083,"text":"讓這個人才的螺絲上能夠改善我們看各個地方政府的石藥裝稽查員也真的都相對很辛苦這麼有限的人力等於一個人要平均要負責1200家的業者的這些業務真的很需要各位長官其實給他們加油也同時能夠有更好的機制來幫忙他們來做一些處理"},{"start":471.664,"end":497.365,"text":"那這部分其實我們也知道除了這方面的努力以外那針對於這些食品的安全的部分也非常鼓勵傳統的商家來參加餐飲衛生管理的分級2010年食藥署就開始做這個分級的這些評鑑或者是相關的評核看起來百分比很高都能夠達到優惠量可是我們知道他們達到這個優惠量大部分都是連鎖餐飲業者"},{"start":498.846,"end":518.915,"text":"那針對於跟國人生活飲食相關很密切的就是傳統市場跟夜市攤販不曉得這個參與平和的這個百分比高不高那如果這個部分有所缺失或者是參與率不高的時候那目前有沒有好的誘因或者是什麼機制來請我們"},{"start":523.678,"end":549.6,"text":"針對傳統市場或夜市攤販來參與這樣的這個管理分級的這些平和有沒有更好的做法這部分部長或者是署長有沒有好的意見可以給我們做參考確實我們現在這個是自願制所以來申請的都是比較具規模的那對這種夜市攤商這個是屬於比較小型規模的"},{"start":550.481,"end":565.807,"text":"那麼怎麼樣來輔導我們來跟地方政府討論看看怎麼樣對這些比較小規模但是又是數量很龐大的這些攤商業者來看看怎麼"},{"start":566.747,"end":584.947,"text":"其實有一些地方他們跟那個夜市自治會他們會互相的合作那也提供一些標章可是這是各個地方政府自己處理啦都沒有全國統一的一個相關的標章可以來協助這方面的處置模式所以很希望如果能夠"},{"start":585.968,"end":602.693,"text":"把這個部分做好的話我相信對於整體的食安尤其我們看到最近的幾個案件應該會有更好的幫助跟委員說我們這個要分級因為過去可能要得到的這一些要通過這樣的平和的話標準會比較高"},{"start":604.574,"end":631.185,"text":"但是對這種小型的可能我們要另外一套的那個平和標準比較容易輔導我們再來跟地方政府一起討論再問一下那我們知道這個地方稽查人力真的非常不夠所以針對這個公務體系人力不堪負荷之下那有沒有其他的方式來協助整體國安實案的這些改善那我最近就是有"},{"start":632.145,"end":649.553,"text":"是不是能夠參考歐美建立第三方驗證的制度包括可以授權食品技師或者是工衛師在事前或者是在同時平時定期就能夠進行衛生管理製程管控制跟倉儲流程的把關"},{"start":650.774,"end":665.531,"text":"經過這一套制度之下我們又可以把相關的人力能夠引到這個食安的這些需求上面來所以如果能夠真的去做好食安的這個簽證制度讓這樣的這個制度運作的話相信可以"},{"start":666.152,"end":680.871,"text":"同時擴充這個政府的監管量能又能夠強化前端預防機制輔導業者來自主管理那這個其實之前部長或者是深雙政委他們也都了解到那也"},{"start":681.952,"end":707.697,"text":"表示說不反對有這個建立這個食安的簽證制度可能有助於這個強化事前的預防可是就是怎麼去釐清責任這個部分如何來加強因為這個部分大家會擔心如果前後這個責任無法釐清的話造成這個事前不同意後面的問題就會很麻煩所以不過這個公衛"},{"start":708.397,"end":735.118,"text":"市國公會他們也認為認同啦這個如果專業人員這個制度建立以後呢就是有權應該當要有責嘛就能夠把這些責任理清的非常的清楚那大方向大家有共識那有沒有可能麻煩我們主管機關惡務部這邊可以來繼續或者是開始來思考演繹推動這樣的死案簽證制度的推行或推廣"},{"start":736.58,"end":761.403,"text":"跟委員說確實過去我們是針對一定規模的會定有三級評管的方式內部它需要有相關證照人員包含食品祭祀等等那第二級的話就會有第三方的認證制度一定規模的那第三個才是最終的主管機關的這個稽查大概過去是這三個那但是就如同剛剛委員提到的"},{"start":762.904,"end":782.444,"text":"這個限於這個量能的關係所以可能沒有辦法破解到全面所以如果要全面的話也許就是要導入這個現有的這些人力包含公衛司、食品機制來進行這個食安簽證的制度不過責任的釐清還有如何的"},{"start":783.738,"end":802.663,"text":"這些負責簽證的人類的資格條件訓練等等這個我們來研究一下那也許是可以來補我們現在這個稽查人力不足讓他更往前坐在這個預防的那一端這樣"},{"start":803.183,"end":821.245,"text":"好啦,如果這個開始推動這個原意的話那可不可以兩個月給我們一個書面報告方便嗎?好,可以好,謝謝那最後就是診所受孤醫師加保全員這個部分其實我想部長也清楚那我們上個禮拜也在勞動部那邊"},{"start":822.407,"end":838.804,"text":"請紅部長還有勞保局的局長針對於如果是診所裡面的受僱醫師是單一的診所受僱或者是多診所受僱的話如何能夠讓他們的勞保的權益可以順利的來得到好的保障"},{"start":839.344,"end":863.197,"text":"那這部分 拉伯局局長是說需要跟這個衛護部這邊來討論相關如何能夠讓這樣的這些在改善的過程裡面有好的一個統計基礎所以是不是可以麻煩部長也能夠認同我們針對這些診所受護醫師在加保的權益上可以有更全面的一些處理模式"},{"start":863.838,"end":888.94,"text":"跟委員說明因為在診所的醫師他會有兩種型態一種他是用合夥關係共同成立所以這個就可能不是家保的問題那另外一個才是真的受雇所以現在我們當然職登上一定是只有一個負責醫師其他就是職登醫師但是他們的關係是在我們現在系統裡面看不出來"},{"start":889.6,"end":914.293,"text":"我們不知道他是受雇關係還是合夥關係所以這個很可能還要透過那個稅捐機關一起勾結如果他在申報的時候他是申報是執行業務所得那他就是合夥關係的認定那可能就沒有這個加保問題那但是如果他是以薪資所得來申報那他就很可能就是雇傭關係"},{"start":915.233,"end":940.727,"text":"那這個就要依照勞基法的這個規定來給他加保所以我們必須要前置的這些數據那可能我們還要不是只有勞動部的這個協助可能還需要這個稅捐機關的協助去勾結他們的這個關係那這部分部長可以幫忙我們再請財政部也提供給我們"},{"start":941.767,"end":952.073,"text":"相關在這些診所醫師 但是這個因為這個還有各自的問題 我們來跟器官討論一下好 謝謝 王中信委員的質詢"}]}},{"id":"168589","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168589","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ec77822e2e6eae3904c893aec4c71ae8ea785098ebfecd5e6b800412f8d870b315cf85df7fa038c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"12:18:33 - 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控制的病房沒有人大白忙 不明原因起火這大事建築物的外部施工焊接引起火花 然後觸發警報控制的病房不明原因起火 這是正常的嗎這絕對都不正常"},{"start":224.161,"end":244.858,"text":"那地方政府的調查你們對他的狀況怎麼樣我想聽起來好像你還是沒有去問沒有特別去沒有掌握嘛但是不是每次火警都要等到有人死亡我們才要去把它當成是重大事件去關注不是因為你必須見為知著啊"},{"start":247.762,"end":263.305,"text":"所以你從這裡就看到這個醫院醫院的管理有沒有問題一次兩次 台大耶然後現在講說因為醫院跟一般建築不同裡面是臥床的病人重症的病人行動不便者一旦失火"},{"start":263.806,"end":278.004,"text":"他的風險不是一般的公共場所可以來相比你的所以我現在跟你講說兩次然後都是教學型醫院然後控制的病房會起火這事情很嚴重的"},{"start":284.25,"end":310.811,"text":"跟委員說明確實因為台灣很多醫院也相當老舊台大醫院也是他已經很久的我們聽不下去老舊老舊不要提出來談再怎麼老舊也要確定這個醫療場所裡面的安全是更勝於其他公共場所的沒有錯就如同委員所提到的因為醫院裡面的住院病人相對的避難能力是比較差的"},{"start":311.611,"end":323.699,"text":"所以他所需要要求的防火相當的措施要更高所以我們去年開始就有一個輔導計畫你們的輔導計畫是什麼輔導計畫我們輔導當然是先從比較小型的醫院因為他們自己的能力比較不足所以我們先去輔導"},{"start":333.846,"end":360.92,"text":"那這個大型醫院的話而你們輔導計畫的內容主要是什麼核心的那個點是什麼我們的輔導當然包含第一個就是它的防火設施還有它的這個那個建築安全它的設計那以及應變能力那些大概這些因為去年年底剛好監察院也通過糾正屏東縣政府衛生局東港政公所衛福部"},{"start":362.06,"end":386.025,"text":"他們在年底去年12月26號糾正了你們地方政府主要的疏失以安泰醫院為例他合法的面積大概一半一半47.2都是非法的違建而且在2005年就開始了在那種狀況裡面地方政府放任違建醫院在違建內從事醫療使用到連"},{"start":390.686,"end":407.203,"text":"到去年 監察院去年2025年10月去履刊的時候現場仍然是違建 持續在使用當中現在政府也沒有依法勒令停止使用也沒有依法採取斷水斷電的處置火災的風險不是偶發 而是結構性的問題"},{"start":414.09,"end":419.932,"text":"這個問題消防署統計全國469家醫院在2005年到2024年之間一共發生過98件的火災起火的原因都以電氣因素最多佔56.1%起火的地點以機房居多佔13.3%而安泰醫院就是因為電氣因素加上機房起火"},{"start":443.519,"end":462.511,"text":"死了8個人 死了8個人我這個都是監察院的監察報告全國醫院評鑑的制度也出現了系統性的失靈我說的也是監察院的調查報告監察院指出 全國有81家的醫院"},{"start":463.949,"end":479.161,"text":"屬於你講的中小型醫院類似安泰醫院他們都涉及違法擴充樓地板面積應列管的違建醫院竟然其中有70家這些都違建要列管的然後都還在營業的81家裡面有70家通過了衛福部的醫院評鑑"},{"start":496.306,"end":523.502,"text":"通過了醫院評鑑你們衛福部都給他評鑑通過所以顯然可以知道你們衛福部的對醫院公共安全的評鑑存在著系統性的為師而讓所有看病的這些民眾置於風險當中所以你動搖了人家對你們監督機制這種評鑑機制的信任"},{"start":525.553,"end":543.677,"text":"81間有70間通過你們的醫院評鑑你怎麼做 何感想跟委員說明 當然在這個評鑑的過程當中基於這個委員的專業啦他不見得有辦法看得那麼細所以通常在評鑑的同時會會同衛生局我現在不在看你們的委員看不看得這麼細啦現在監察院說你們81間都是這個有問題"},{"start":553.459,"end":568.084,"text":"連七十經理也是讓他評鑑合格這不是你們有問題嗎然後你們被點出來的四大缺失喔他們簡直就透過安泰醫院這個評鑑上的問題他點出你們四個問題第一個問題你們衛福部辦理安泰醫院的評鑑"},{"start":577.166,"end":592.294,"text":"這個早在2005、2007年就存在了結果你們的這種違建還在一半以上都是違建然後你們在2011年、2017年通通都繼續通過評鑑都通過第二個你們在2024年 這個在2011、2017都評鑑通過 合格喔合格喔在2024年他要辦理"},{"start":606.508,"end":632.443,"text":"這個評鑑2024年8月要辦理評鑑評鑑委員在上面清楚的寫出他的意見他說公安消防有缺失2024年的8月評鑑委員說公安消防有缺失結果呢當年10月就發生火災了就8條人命了但是呢"},{"start":633.499,"end":658.388,"text":"你們安消防有缺失有同時通報縣政府去解決去改善嗎有橫向聯繫嗎答案是沒有在8月的時候就說有缺失沒有通知縣政府不要說當時沒有到現在可能也沒有啦是不是沒有沒有啦評鑑的時候都是會統衛生局你有通知縣政府說裡面"},{"start":667.135,"end":692.051,"text":"委員認為上面有公安消防的缺失衛生局他們不會知道你們的委員當時審查的意見所以在這個裡面依據你們醫院評鑑基準第1.5章安全的環境和設備裡面有講所以你們應將員工工作環境病人就醫環境的安全納入考量"},{"start":693.231,"end":713.425,"text":"在規劃院建築和相關硬體設施時就應該把這些納入考量而且要審視是不是符合法規的要求如果發現有違反相關的法定規定應立即改善然查上開基準欠缺呼應條文和查核的方式沒有將核心的公安事項列入評鑑指標當中你們沒有把"},{"start":716.027,"end":730.855,"text":"公安的核心指標列入評鑑指標制度顯有缺漏這不是我講的這個是監察院講的監察院又說你們的評鑑人員雖然有醫學公共衛生和管理的專業背景但是"},{"start":731.115,"end":759.958,"text":"在醫療設施設備安全評鑑時考評存在建築硬體配電器消防安全等缺漏醫院的評鑑人員如不具備建築公安消防等專業也沒有看到評鑑時要求受評的醫院要提供上開的證明文件通通都沒有辦法評鑑所以你們評鑑淪於紙上作業居多就公安公共安全上真的是沒有那個作用"},{"start":761.019,"end":789.769,"text":"那只有台北市衛生局在要求轄區醫院在考評的時候台北市政府會要求他們要提供醫院的建築出圖證明供衛生局現場集合我的意思是說地方政府人家有人這麼做那我現在在講喔監察院不是只有糾正地方政府也糾正了衛福部要求衛福部消防署國土署要檢討強化醫院的建築安全管理等等還有"},{"start":790.816,"end":816.954,"text":"他們現在到現在去年12月糾正到現在然後也明確指出了你們應該要修正評鑑制度請問你們衛福部到底修正了沒有好跟委員說明喔第一個在這個評鑑的時候呢那麼多另外有消防安檢那個是由地方的主管機關要去做檢核的就是聯合的概念我現在講的是監察院要求你們"},{"start":818.074,"end":831.504,"text":"監察院要求你們在評鑑的時候不是什麼都是由評鑑委員來評啦我現在在鑑主法規的合法消防安檢的部分本來就有地方的補管機關人家地方政府隨時就可以檢的啦我沒錯啦我現在問你的問題不是這個問題你答非所問你不要轉移焦點我問你的問題是你的評鑑委員在評鑑的時候就發現他有公安消防的疑慮你們沒有同時通報地方政府沒有啦"},{"start":847.395,"end":852.737,"text":"第二個監察院說你們在做醫院的評鑑的時候也要把公安的這個消防的這一些確保安全的這些項目要納入評鑑的機制裡面所以評鑑的基準有沒有納入核心的公安事項評鑑的委員的組成有沒有補到建築消防配電的這些專業"},{"start":875.748,"end":893.927,"text":"受評的醫院 如果沒有那些委員的話受評的醫院應備的文件有沒有增加建築 公安 消防等相關證明我問你是監察院都給你們糾正了 到現在四個月過去了這些通通改進了沒有"},{"start":894.946,"end":901.508,"text":"在這個剛剛委員關心的就是我們的評鑑的報告給地方政府這個我們會做啦就是把它我們過去就是有給衛生局啦就是這個評鑑的結果報告會給衛生局作為它未來督導考核的查核項目之一啦所以這個部分橫向的部分我們做了不是啦你們的委員都發現有問題了一定要通報地方政府馬上進場去檢查如果2024年的8月"},{"start":924.696,"end":939.12,"text":"你們這麼做的話或許那10月發生的火災就不會有這8條人命的去無辜的傷亡跟我們說明就是說那個時間的落差是不是可以縮短一點我們是前車之鑑慘痛的經驗過去是最後評定完之後再把這個評鑑的結果報告會給衛生局"},{"start":949.002,"end":950.883,"text":"我現在不是在談個案而已我是從這個個案要跟你講制度而監察院都糾正了你們的制度全面性的改善了沒有就這麼簡單問你們全面性的制度改變了沒有"},{"start":964.853,"end":980.139,"text":"第一個就是我們把這個報告早一點送 早一點送給地方不要等到那個評定完之後啦那第二個就是那個評鑑的標準裡面來優化把這些納進來 這個我們會再做你們評定完要多久才會評定完"},{"start":982.019,"end":991.544,"text":"通常你們評鑑要評定多久才會評定完怎麼會分批啦 不過大概都是評定完那個叫實地評鑑 你實地評鑑完要多久大概都會幾個月後才會決定會議我問你最具體的 為什麼我要問這個問題是因為你們2024年的8月去評鑑東港的安泰醫院"},{"start":1005.872,"end":1032.307,"text":"10月3號就發生大火 死了8個人然後呢 發現一半都是偽章建築那請問這樣子事情過了多久了從你8月評鑑 2024年評鑑到現在2026年的4月了已經過了幾個月了請問你安泰醫院的評鑑到底是合格還是不合格所以他當年沒有合格"},{"start":1033.851,"end":1048.902,"text":"就要重評我在你們的網頁上查詢不到啊就是還沒有2024年的8月你就去評鑑啊到現在你說他不合格還是合格來他就是要重評啊 他要重新評鑑啊什麼叫重新評鑑就是2024年那一年他沒有合格"},{"start":1060.984,"end":1071.674,"text":"你們對於人民知的權利真的是認為都不需要給我們嗎不合格然後不用讓我們知道嗎你說他不合格他的網頁說他合格耶那是之前吧他之前的話現在還可以掛在網頁上嗎他說他們合格耶來看你們的查詢系統"},{"start":1089.747,"end":1102.003,"text":"你們的醫院評鑑你去查詢都查不到不合格你只公佈合格那查不到不合格那人民是要知道他是還沒評鑑還是不合格嗎"},{"start":1105.168,"end":1117.78,"text":"這個跟你們狼醫查詢系統都一樣在這裡虛晃一招你只公佈合格然後呢事實上還沒評鑑的也查不出來評鑑不合格的也查不出來你們的網頁連不合格的資訊都不公告蛤 這不用改進嗎"},{"start":1126.277,"end":1134.888,"text":"我們過去當然只公告合格名單啦啊不合格不用公告給我們知道嗎他自己的意願說他合格你說他不合格如果沒有立委在這裡質詢你人民怎麼會知道他合格還是不合格"},{"start":1145.438,"end":1162.374,"text":"就是過去我們都是公告合格現在呢過去是這樣現在呢我們來演我們來演繹你評鑑這個要幹嘛不就讓人民知道哪些是合格哪些是不合格嗎你不合格不公告我人民怎麼知道這間是不合格還是不合格"},{"start":1165.858,"end":1179.325,"text":"這是包庇嘛 就是包庇嘛在你們的醫院評鑑專區網頁上東泰安泰醫院沒有任何敘述這種到底是 你說不合格還是合格不要講了啦 其實你們有改嘛其實你們公告了"},{"start":1190.207,"end":1202.801,"text":"在2024年10月安泰醫院大火以後以後你們修改了你們的醫院評鑑及教學醫院評鑑作業程序第11點"},{"start":1204.301,"end":1229.801,"text":"你們改了不知道是對醫院太好還是怎樣你們說放寬評鑑結果可以限期改善其實他為什麼他也不是合格也不是不合格安泰醫院現在不是合格也不是不合格經過了快要兩年了一年八個月了評鑑完到現在一年八個月了"},{"start":1231.397,"end":1244.844,"text":"到現在他不是合格也不是不合格因為你為他量身訂製了放寬放寬評鑑結果可以限期改善但這個限期是要限多久保定是要限多久"},{"start":1247.405,"end":1267.565,"text":"你們現在開放可以限期改善是要限期多久沒有啦你們可以把重大公安 病安事件納入評鑑但沒有明定一旦發生應停止或不予通過評鑑"},{"start":1269.487,"end":1295.253,"text":"一旦但你沒有明定一旦發生問題應該要停止或者是不予通過你就說可以給他限期改善你就允許他改善嘛所以你不會判定他合格還是不合格表面上你們是說新增了重大公安病安事件的處理規定實際上卻是把重大事件納入先改善再決定是否不合格的框架"},{"start":1296.013,"end":1318.586,"text":"你不是加嚴啦你有可能是在架空和弱化你的評鑑的及時把關的功能讓發生重大公安或病安事件的醫院仍然有機會可以透過限期改善維持評鑑結果把重大事件納入可補正程序卻沒有同步建立明確的評定暫停還有資訊揭露和對外標示的規則"},{"start":1324.609,"end":1348.925,"text":"導致問題的醫院得以停留在通過跟未通過之間的模糊地帶他是合格不合格還沒有判定的狀況所以現在安泰醫院一年八個月不是合格也不是不合格因為他發生了公安事件還在限期改善你們制度面我就問你你的限期改善沒有讓人民知道他現在"},{"start":1350.166,"end":1370.978,"text":"在限期改善階段你在合格不合格之間如果允許他限期改善那你也要讓人民知道這家醫院現在正在限期改善你也要在法規上明定限期改善最長的時間是多少沒有人這樣子一年八個月了還在限期改善的吧"},{"start":1374.469,"end":1390.6,"text":"你這個有三個層次的影響第一個層次對民眾知情權的不利 評鑑本來就讓我們知道他的醫療品質跟安全標準到底合格或不合格你現行的制度只有公佈合格不公佈不合格"},{"start":1391.533,"end":1418.621,"text":"然後發生 還修改你們的作業程序 評鑑作業程序你們允許他限期改善可是呢 你們對於發生事情裡面進入限期改善也沒有讓人民知道也沒有清楚公告目前法律跟評鑑狀態也沒有公告限期改善期間要多久民眾無法做出正確的判斷這間便宜有安全嗎 不知道"},{"start":1419.341,"end":1443.141,"text":"第二個對主管機關責任不利因為只要不知道他是合格不合格或是陷起改善狀況主管機關就持續用 尚在處理當中尚未評定來延後表態也不必立即公告不合格也不必立刻說明該醫院是否仍得對外宣稱自己具有某種評鑑資格"},{"start":1445.023,"end":1461.534,"text":"都不知道都是醫院自己說我合格了你們政府都不用說明第三個對醫院形成有利的模糊空間然後醫院就利用這一種空窗期主張我沒有不合格喔因為我還在限期改善喔"},{"start":1462.455,"end":1478.201,"text":"甚至還可以說我過去的平健光環或是社會的印象它還上面寫我合格所以對這種發生重大事件的醫院來講保留了很大的操作的空間所以現在怎麼樣"},{"start":1479.707,"end":1498.304,"text":"安泰醫院我現在問你安泰醫院他可以適用你們20他2024年評鑑不合格2025年你們修改了評鑑作業程序他現在可以適用你們2025年的評鑑程序然後給他限期改善嗎舉這個醫院來講是這樣子把我們說評鑑制度當"},{"start":1506.492,"end":1518.799,"text":"當裝飾嗎?他用2024年的評鑑然後你2025年修改規定他又2024年評鑑沒算 要用2025年的作業程序來重評給他機會 每間便宜都這樣你們的評鑑這是裝飾用的嗎?不對 這樣對不對?"},{"start":1526.995,"end":1547.533,"text":"這個限期改善的部分我們會再督促主管機關啦來啦你那主管單位在哪裡限期改善限期是限多久一年八個月還要限嗎限期你們沒想過你們的限期改善是多久嗎2024年8月評鑑到現在還在限期改善連合格不合格都沒有辦法判定他對外說他合格啦"},{"start":1553.66,"end":1558.183,"text":"到底你們現在是判定他合格還不合格還是在限期改善當中醫院評鑑合格是與否合格不合格他醫院自己說我合格你們網頁找不到也沒有公佈他們沒有違反他們這樣做他們沒有違反相關規定嗎我今天不是要跟他針對"},{"start":1584.209,"end":1596.56,"text":"安泰醫院這個個案 而是要問你監察院已經指出全國有81家像安泰醫院一樣的列管的 違建的醫院81家70家通過評鑑而這些狀況都有可能會跟安泰一樣有公安的疑慮而你們說他們評鑑合格"},{"start":1611.704,"end":1617.374,"text":"你到底要不要正面的去面對你們評鑑制度失靈的責任啊"},{"start":1619.206,"end":1647.927,"text":"然後再來 當你們2024年8月在評鑑安泰的時候評鑑委員已經在公文裡面寫下他的評鑑意見 寫下公安消防缺失沒有同時通報地方政府 地方政府不知道這樣的評鑑制度有預警功能嗎 沒有所以8月之後的10月發生大火 死了8條人命"},{"start":1649.775,"end":1676.496,"text":"再來當醫院發生重大公安或病安事件以後你現在修改你的評鑑作業程序評鑑結果沒有判定合格也沒有判定不合格就停留在長期停留在現期改善當中民眾的風險要依據什麼沒有資訊不知道任何狀況"},{"start":1678.14,"end":1684.166,"text":"然後民眾無從判斷風險所以我們用這個個案來看你的制度"},{"start":1686.024,"end":1708.459,"text":"你立即公佈81家 你把資料給我們 81家列管的違建的醫院到底是哪81家 給我們知道然後你的醫院評鑑合格公告出來 不合格也一樣公告出來你的限期改善也要公告出來"},{"start":1709.62,"end":1738.499,"text":"然後你的制度面限期改善是限多久最多一個月兩個月三個月已經夠多了如果不行的話就是不合格不要這樣子安泰醫院已經限期一年八個月了一年八個月了所以在這種狀況裡面如果這樣拖下去你的評鑑制度形同虛設沒好處而且治病人的安全在高風險之下"},{"start":1740.023,"end":1761.87,"text":"這樣補聽有辦法嗎?這方面要改跟委員說明這個有關於這個國土署所給的這個名單我們都有列管然後再進行輔導 改善我要說監察院說的80億斤啦 明年大學給我們啦 可以對不對可以可以可以 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各位委員會與次教多加指導也感謝召集委員讓我們能夠在適當的時間來在這邊表達感謝的意思"},{"start":1995.874,"end":2015.515,"text":"第一前言監察院依憲法及憲法徵修條文之規定為國家最高之監察機關行使彈劾糾舉及審計權並得提起糾正案前述職權之行使除審計權另有規定外定有監察法以為依循"},{"start":2016.756,"end":2034.891,"text":"國家人權委員會於109年正式成立之後致力落實該會組織法第二條規定之各項職權為善盡促進及保障人權之職責落實憲法對人民權利之維護建立符合國際標準之人權規範"},{"start":2036.713,"end":2052.974,"text":"擬推動修正監察法增列人權委員會職權行使專章及嚴定相關法規該法案已送至貴委員會判盡速審查以完備該會運作之法制基礎"},{"start":2054.448,"end":2080.834,"text":"另外本院兼顧促進年齡政府之職責雖非公職人員財產申報法公職人員利益衝突迴避法政治獻金法及遊說法等陽光事法之主管機關但仍主動積極向主管機關提出實務的執行問題以及意見並於貴院審查該等法案時充分表達資訊提供修法的意見"},{"start":2082.255,"end":2089.61,"text":"檢二要報告立法計畫提出相關修法意見供各位委員來參考敬請各位委員指導"},{"start":2091.752,"end":2120.119,"text":"二我們報告立法監察院立法計劃情形第一監察法部分條文修正案增列人權專章為使人權委員會行使該會組織法第二條規定之職權使有所依循並符合巴黎原則所揭示之職責與國際接軌發揮國家人權機構促進及保障人權之功能本院依據貴院於一零八年十二月三十日三讀"},{"start":2120.939,"end":2146.412,"text":"通過該會組織法時所作的附帶決議擬據監察法部分條文修正草案並經第十屆第五會期司法及法治委員會審訊交付黨團協商為未能完成刪讀本院已於113年7月15日再度的提出法案"},{"start":2148.263,"end":2164.359,"text":"送请贵院审议并于13年9月20日立法院会议一读交付司法及法治委员会审查期盼能尽速完成立法程序2.阳光事法阳光事法为公职人员财产申报法"},{"start":2165.04,"end":2189.437,"text":"公職人員利益衝突迴避法政治獻金法及遊說法主管機關分別為法務部以及內政部本院雖非陽光事法相關法律之主管機關但依法律掌理陽光事法相關的業務在執行業務過程中如發現摯愛或缺漏之處應予以修法改善者"},{"start":2190.157,"end":2204.557,"text":"均主動向法律主管機關提出修法建議意見並參與相關修法會議其中政治先進法修正草案經內政部於109年6月30日函送行政院審查"},{"start":2205.618,"end":2223.976,"text":"自15年1月16日已召開13次審查會議修正草案業經審查完略代替行政院會討論又由稅法主管機關內政部11年4月29日將由稅法部分條文修正草案函送行政院審查"},{"start":2225.097,"end":2243.069,"text":"行政院於111年1月26日召開會議完成審查後續將內政部依會議決議向貴院先行溝通以其順利完成修法本院在此感謝貴院對本院之支持協助本院諸多該等"},{"start":2244.21,"end":2260.749,"text":"憲法賦予之職權以及其他事項之業務推動本院當積極發揮監察職權以致力保障人民權及維護社會公義達成機關算治以上報告敬請指教謝謝各位"},{"start":2263.41,"end":2288.48,"text":"好謝謝黃秘書長黃秘書長那麼現在機關代表報告完畢那相關的書面內容就請各位參閱並列入公報記錄那麼我們現在呢就開始進行詢答本會委員詢答時間為八分鐘必要時得延長兩分鐘非本會委員質詢非本會委員詢答時間為五分鐘並不再延長上午十點半"},{"start":2289.518,"end":2299.094,"text":"結旨發言登記那我們就先請登記第一位陳昭智委員發言謝謝主席有請卓秘書長黃秘書長"},{"start":2310.168,"end":2333.606,"text":"委員好秘書長早雖然這個任用公務車的情勢並非發生在你任內但是現在既然你擔任了秘書長所以我要請你蓋瓜承受當時事件爆發的時候有媒體在追問監察院是否要立案調查但是葉大華監察委員他竟然說涉及事務"},{"start":2334.446,"end":2355.882,"text":"怎能怎麼立案調查 就是涉到自己的事情 怎能立案調查那媒體當時還提醒他 以前就發生過監察院秘書長被調查彈劾的情勢如果按照這個葉大華監委的邏輯 那監察委員如果濫權沒有任何人可以查嗎監察委員這麼大嗎 沒有任何法律或行政能夠究責嗎 秘書長事情是這樣的嗎"},{"start":2359.525,"end":2378.419,"text":"跟委員報告我們監察院本身對這個案子是真正有調查的我們是透過我們本院的紀律委員會進行調查所以我們這邊是有查查 也有做出相關的決定所以葉大華的監委他講的話不是正確的"},{"start":2379.059,"end":2406.008,"text":"他不是正確的他說涉及事件怎能調查呢他當時對媒體這麼講的沒關係秘書長我要特別說明一件事情去年當然你還沒有就任在審查監察院的追加預算的時候民眾黨黨團原本是要全書刪除的但是當時的那個代理秘書長也就是王貞華表示將針對公務車濫用的事情做積極的調查因此本黨就釋出善意就把那個案子撤了"},{"start":2408.028,"end":2422.474,"text":"當時這個代理秘書長也有明確表示說案件已經進入剛剛您談的這個紀律委員會那預期九月會有結果可是後來呢一直到延宕到今年二月才提出來而且最後的處分竟然是什麼 您知道嗎最後的處分是"},{"start":2423.354,"end":2436.562,"text":"最後處分是請這個林玉榮委員在院會那後來他是在院會以口頭來道歉他是口頭套件處請注意完全沒有任何懲處啊請問秘書長您當時有參與這個公務車事件的調查嗎"},{"start":2440.645,"end":2461.376,"text":"這個是機遇委員會的組成是由委員來組成所以不是由幕僚來組成秘書長你認為這個處分妥當嗎這樣的結果你能接受嗎你會不會要求重新來過我們也沒這個職權要求重新來過但是我在這邊必須要很負責任的代表監察院向委員以及大院來報告相關的懲處我們也都是依據相關的法制"},{"start":2467.379,"end":2482.747,"text":"那這個紀律委員會有規定那我們做的一個決定是請林玉榮委員這個要口頭道歉那王文章委員是處請注意那蘇立瓊委員因為他是因為牙痛"},{"start":2483.507,"end":2502.507,"text":"所以他去緊急去看醫生所以我們就沒有盈餘懲處我的意思其實你們對別人的檢舉大概就是彈劾啦 糾正啦那對自己還有保留一個叫口頭道歉就可以啦我跟委員報告我們這個紀律委員會所規定的相關的這個權責就是說他的懲處"},{"start":2503.988,"end":2530.986,"text":"罪到了這個所謂的那個道歉再來就是彈劾差別就是彈劾所以留在口頭道歉啊對但是為什麼留在口頭道歉是有法律依據的為什麼呢因為我們一般來講對一般的公務人員的彈劾尤其是在公務車的濫用的情況之下都必須要有刑法追訴有刑事責任的時候才會進入到彈劾所以跟全國公務人員是一致我換另外一道題目謝謝"},{"start":2532.567,"end":2537.412,"text":"監察院在扁政府時期曾經空轉三年有數萬個案件都被擱置了但是很奇怪當時社會都沒有什麼明顯感受連陳總統事後都親自告訴我說沒有人指控他違憲那我要請問秘書長這樣的狀況是代表制度上是功能失靈呢還是本來就沒有被人民感受到說它存在的價值呢"},{"start":2554.75,"end":2583.016,"text":"這件事情事實上跟委員報告我們監察院的存在非常重要其實啊剛才我在報告的時候就已經提到了我們本院負擔彈劾的工作其實過去大院一直有一個質詢權可是就缺了我們這個調查權已經賦予在監察院調查之後我們再進入到彈劾然後才送工程會您的報告我有認真聽但是我剛剛在講當時的事實就這樣也沒有人提出違憲"},{"start":2584.376,"end":2604.112,"text":"社會也無感啦 這是一個事實 現象的部分秘書長有位民進黨政治人物說過過去監察院也曾經停止運作三年到頭來也是安然無恙 你知道是誰講這句話嗎我對不起 我不瞭解你不知道 這就是前任監察院秘書長你的前任李俊逸在2015年擔任立委說過的話"},{"start":2606.914,"end":2635.415,"text":"那不久前辭職的陳菊院長也說希望自己是最後一任監察院長在憲改完成廢考監後光榮離開那2015年賴清德市長他拒絕走入議會被監察院彈劾的時候也說過台灣的監察院這幾十年來該辦的不辦反而成為政治的打手國人已經無法再支持這樣的機關了一定要廢掉監察院這個憲政怪獸我這都是引用的話那秘書長你我都知道過去民進黨多位政治人物"},{"start":2636.135,"end":2653.811,"text":"是主張廢除監察院並且認為監察權這個是可以回歸到立法院或其他的這個機制是是是這意思那說過要扮演末代監察院長的陳菊院長她辭職了但監察院還在嘛那請問秘書長您支持廢除這個監察院呢你會期許自己是末代的秘書長嗎"},{"start":2655.423,"end":2669.68,"text":"我沒有辦法以監察院秘書長的身份來回答我要不要做末代的秘書長但是我當然啦我過去身為一個當初是一個學者的時候呢我也有相關的主張"},{"start":2670.821,"end":2674.923,"text":"但是我沒辦法以秘書長的身份您過去也應該是一直 我們也曾經是戰友嘛大家都有一次的經驗我的主張是廢除監察員但是監察權還是要回歸到立法院這是我當學者時候的意見"},{"start":2687.347,"end":2711.097,"text":"我再回來我們的責任的部分去年六月那個時候民眾黨曾經召開記者會我在記者會指出就六月之前的一些資料監察院過去三年的成績比過去三十年的工作成績還差每年地方巡查耗資一千八百萬元巡查的天數不到四十天監察員每位平均一年只處理十二個調查案到二零二四年的時候每位監務委"},{"start":2711.977,"end":2732.389,"text":"平均一年僅處理九件調查案全院全年僅有96個糾正案這個數字如果是你們要補充追加這樣是可以那我還要再講賴清德總統的愛將陳忠彥接受性招待的彈劾案在這個罪證明確之下竟然以2比11彈劾未過"},{"start":2733.979,"end":2743.605,"text":"所以這個相關爭議是罄竹難書包括剛剛我提到這個濫用公務車沒有被處分那院長長期領病假雖然他不是願意生病的這個等等都是問題"},{"start":2745.342,"end":2774.181,"text":"那您還覺得這個監察院存在有非常大的價值嗎我覺得委員這邊先跟委員說明一個狀態就是說您有時候看到那個數字第一個我們那是有點片面其實我們的這邊有一個調查數字我可以在會後補充給委員我們的調查數字其實我們第五屆跟第六屆的比較來看我們本院的委員的職權心思並沒有跟第五屆有多相關的落差"},{"start":2775.422,"end":2780.805,"text":"你願意給我書面一些資料補充我們想要了解監察委員有沒有努力在工作成效如何 當然接下來我要講的另外一件事 監察院其實會被人家認為說案件選擇跟調查的強度沒有一致性 一致的標準有時候會被批評只辦基層不辦大官而且好幾位請你看一下 這好幾位都具有非常強烈的黨政背景"},{"start":2800.916,"end":2814.407,"text":"那被形容是仇永怨因為當一個機關我現在在說形容當一個機關在運作的時候爭議不斷當它不運作的時候社會又無感你看這兩件事加起來是不是代表國家其實不太需要這個機關呢"},{"start":2817.249,"end":2844.958,"text":"對這是第一件事情就是說這個是個事實運作的時候有爭議但不運作大家又無感嘛過去有這個經驗那今年七月底第六屆的監委即將卸任現在面臨第一個朝野這個是對立的情緒是還是存在的第二個加上社會認為監察院好像沒有功能我剛剛舉這樣的例子那未來可能面臨監察院沒有監察委員的情況秘書長你有做好準備嗎如果監察院沒有監察委員你做好準備了嗎"},{"start":2845.718,"end":2871.408,"text":"其實我先回應一下那個委員覺得都只彈劾基層沒有高官這部分其實我們到3月底我們已經彈劾了132案總共217人到3月底為止因為任期到7月底那高階人員佔了八成法官13位檢察官11位是歷屆最高而且我們也有一個委託調查大概也委託調查了3809案那其中有"},{"start":2875.549,"end":2902.144,"text":"平反的案件有389就讓人民真正有感受的我們把他平反的有389所以監察院並不是委員說他都沒有職人這個是去年我去調查的資料他們做的非常多的內容那我需要知道你們是不是確定你們是不是只辦這個只辦只打蒼蠅不打勞工我們會把那個我們辦的官等分析給那至於這個監察院如果沒有監察員你準備好了嗎秘書長"},{"start":2903.783,"end":2926.536,"text":"我們從來不會去準備沒有監察委員的情況從來不會準備這樣我們做的目標一定是準備大院通過之後我們如何讓委員先任的委員來不過我還是建議秘書長您可以去請教一下前總統陳水扁總統當監察院沒有監察委員的時候那三年要怎麼樣來是如何運作的作為您的參考謝謝秘書長謝謝主席"},{"start":2929.537,"end":2946.823,"text":"好 謝謝陳委員秘書長請先回座那接下來我們有請吳宗憲委員發言好 麻煩秘書長好 請秘書長委員好"},{"start":2952.057,"end":2970.168,"text":"民主黨好我想我今天對於監察院主要是討論一個議題就是你們之前也有做過一些報告就有關那個移工部分的一個問題我想監察院自己在112年的7月曾經對於這個國家移工政策有啟動一個調查報告那當時呢他的那個認為的一個問題就是"},{"start":2974.053,"end":2995.765,"text":"失聯移工它是一個結構性的問題是監察院自己的報告他說因為背後牽涉到高額的仲介費合法薪資所得跟勞動狀況不佳勞動條件不佳還有黑工市場拉力還有申訴跟管理機制失靈等等的因素所以監察院的新聞稿裡面有提到111年新增的失聯移工有4.1萬"},{"start":2997.206,"end":3017.939,"text":"那115年2月呢現在失聯的移工有93305人這是你們的報告失聯的比例達到10.2%也就是說有10個移工裡面就有一個目前失聯逃逸中我在這邊先跟秘書長報告10個移工就有一個失聯逃逸中"},{"start":3019.82,"end":3031.187,"text":"過往這個我們都還沒有找到一個解決的方式現在新的政策又要說對那個印度移工開放當然啦在我的立場我會覺得這個國家亂的套大家都在說謊總統選舉前說印度移工要進來叫做"},{"start":3035.249,"end":3061.737,"text":"認知作戰然後選完之後馬上就政策就立刻就出來有這件事情所以當一個國家高層都在說謊的時候那是不是要需要監察院來去監督行政機關不能夠亂搞嘛那連你們的報告在112年到113年之間你們做了非常多份調查報告我們都看過了裡面講得很清楚而且支聯逃逸的移工持續的在增加你們自己也說這個"},{"start":3063.397,"end":3088.478,"text":"甚至103年1月你們的報告是說目前我國的狀況變成邊抓邊跑 越抓越多移民署疲於奔命 人力不足這個都是你們的報告出來的那在這個基礎之下我想請教一下秘書長你們後續還有做出任何對於行政機關的建議或者是任何說明嗎"},{"start":3103.162,"end":3115.505,"text":"有關失眠移工的部分我們都會請移民署來進行調查然後要求勞動部跟移民署一起來配合研究跟調查然後盡量讓移工可以減少他逃逸的狀況"},{"start":3116.485,"end":3140.238,"text":"阿你這是空話嘛我叫他調查有沒有減少那所以呢你們做了什麼我們要求養動部跟移民署他們要盡責阿要盡責負責他們的責任阿所以這就是你們這幾年調查那麼多份調查報告之後還有有些部分的法律的依據還有法律的規定都要求他們要進行改進阿你們有發什麼文開什麼會議或有任何"},{"start":3141.198,"end":3165.471,"text":"我們當然會要求勞動部跟移民署追究誰的責任 有沒有當然追究勞動部跟移民署要糾正他們好 那你們有正式的糾正出去了是不是當然有 當然有相關的公文第一個這個資料要給我們一份第二個他們改善的結論是什麼好的 我看到的是越抓越多越抓越多 那我們會再進行糾正那個要求移民署你們後續的追蹤呢後續還在追蹤中 然後我們會進行然後再來"},{"start":3168.012,"end":3194.849,"text":"你們必須把後續的追蹤資料再給我們一份啊我跟你講現在大家就是反正我開一個會我有糾正他我有指示完就沒我的事了但是我看到的東西會越來越多那為什麼今天我們要提這個因為行政院的新的政策要再大量開放印度移工那你前面的問題還沒有解決完啊你到115年2月給我的資料是10個人就跑掉一個失聯然後你要再開放更多進來那到現在沒有任何的改善"},{"start":3195.709,"end":3216.054,"text":"先補充報告一下就是說我們的糾正案所有的糾正案已經糾正之後我們都會繼續追蹤不會馬上就算是結案的內容然後會看到他有沒有依照我們的糾正去改善那您112年的報告裡面你們有提到一個語言溝通障礙是移工失聯的重要主因所以你們的報告"},{"start":3216.994,"end":3240.853,"text":"但是我看一下日本韓國跟新加坡他們都有基本的溝通的能力他們都有做一些語言的要求基本能力的要求但是目前我國沒有因為這是你們的報告那請問一下這個部分你們後來是要求行政局管要怎麼做我們國家人權委員會也有針對這種類似像同意的問題做出了許多的研究我是說你們監察院"},{"start":3243.635,"end":3267.884,"text":"會把這個研究的內容要求我們的目前有做任何要求了嗎目前有進行了嗎在這個調查案裡面就有要求有關不是你們有做任何正式的要求不是我現在已經再講一次你們的調查報告已經講這個是最主要的原因之一嘛那你們後續對於你們研究報告的最主要原因之一你們做了什麼動作我來解釋"},{"start":3269.404,"end":3297.549,"text":"這部分跟委員報告一下我們有要求勞動部的1955專線設立四國語言所以勞動部他們也有依照我們的糾正內容去做設立四國語言的分析不是不是 你們的研究並不是說1955有沒有辦法受理他們的申訴你們今天你們的報告是說日本 韓國 新加坡在於移工帶來的時候他們就有做基本的語言要求的標準嘛"},{"start":3298.029,"end":3313.974,"text":"你們的報告是這樣啊你說因為很多時候因為語言不通所以導致一些彼此的糾紛發生嘛那就這個對於外籍移工他們要有基本的語言要求這一塊你們做了什麼你們對於行政機關的要求是什麼"},{"start":3315.078,"end":3323.546,"text":"不好意思跟委員報告一下在這部分我們經過我們的報告裡面我們要求勞動部在這個外勞要進來之前呢要求他們能夠到基本的語言的測試他們能夠講基本的中文然後這是在他們在當地的國內進來台灣之前我們有要求勞動部做這樣的訓練那你們是用什麼樣的方式要求是會議上面的口頭"},{"start":3339.059,"end":3357.654,"text":"還是怎麼樣我們完全沒有看到這些資料今天你們講的說真的講真講假我也不知道就我講的現在政府我已經沒辦法信任因為一下講認知認知作戰印度移工進來是認知作戰改天又說就有這件事情所以這個國家已經誰講真話誰講假我不知道"},{"start":3360.936,"end":3385.672,"text":"112年份的這份報告你們有提到幾個重點第一個黑工市場的拉力巨大第二個高額仲介費讓移工變成是負債的勞工第三個申訴跟轉換機制的僵化讓移工跑的就跑掉了第四個查緝量能基層化的嚴重不足這幾個問題都是你們做出來的報告但是目前看起來也沒有一個明顯的改善"},{"start":3387.25,"end":3407.045,"text":"我還是希望啦一件事情這個你們要處理好然後再來齁還有我現在在跟跟你們說明一個審計部也有一份報告出來他說現在這些合法移工的帳戶也被詐團拿來利用啦那現在有很多以前我在當檢察官的時候他們說這個叫坊間稱呼這個叫外勞卡或外勞帳戶啦"},{"start":3408.947,"end":3427.625,"text":"因為勞工合法進來之後 出境了就你並沒有把他契約的時間跟電信公司等等他們的電信合約做勾結所以他們人離開台灣了 他們卡片就拿出去賣給詐團那現在也有一樣的狀況 審計部他的審核報告有寫得很清楚"},{"start":3431.929,"end":3442.822,"text":"每年啦 從111年到113年每年都是翻倍的我們的外籍移工涉犯詐欺案件都是翻倍喔從500多到將近1000人再從1000人跳到將近2000人會有這個問題那我們台灣"},{"start":3447.648,"end":3471.57,"text":"因為詐欺 全國人民受害很慘重但是我們對於這些移工的相關帳戶跟電信的電話卡等等的管理又超級的隨便這部分我也蠻希望說監察院這邊要進行了解因為自願性的人頭帳戶這幾年越來越多為什麼我們國家的詐騙案件這麼的瘋狂的數量往上飆"},{"start":3472.651,"end":3495.166,"text":"因為我們這個最基本該做的行政管理都沒有做所以我今天看移工政策不是說失聯有沒有抓到而是合法的移工要管理 失聯的移工更要管理那這些移工的帳戶 門號合法 資料的借接這些跟詐欺有關的金流等等的管理我想監察院也必須要去了解一下這個狀況那我再跟監察院說明一個點"},{"start":3497.441,"end":3516.626,"text":"日本韓國新加坡他們對於這些移工的管理他們都是中央階級的在統一指揮但是我們現在台灣的做法是由內政部底下的移民署移民署底下的專勤隊我以前跟很多專勤隊合作辦過案件他們的人力嚴重不足這也是"},{"start":3517.706,"end":3537.741,"text":"櫃院的歷次的報告都有提到但是我們現在看到的還是沒有就這一塊去改善所以導致目前的移工的管理失聯的查緝違法拘留其實專情隊量能是不足那你們做出這個報告之後請問一下你們就這個人力的部分你們有做什麼樣的處理嗎"},{"start":3538.482,"end":3561.534,"text":"委員今天你提的意見非常多議題也非常多是不是讓我們針對你這些議題我們有做糾正的部分先跟你報告因為沒有時間我不要太擋我後面再來我要跟你們提一下你們有監察業務處你們有綜合業務處你們有秘書處我知道我今天問了很多問題你們一定會說監察委員獨立方案我們必須尊重他"},{"start":3562.295,"end":3568.745,"text":"歷次監察員都是這樣在回覆我但是我要跟你們說明一個點因為你們還是有行政的幕僚行政的單位"},{"start":3570.373,"end":3597.72,"text":"今天監察委員就像是裁判誰不對我要吹哨子但是他要吹哨錢你們還是要遞哨子給他啊你們還是要給他一些他該知道的東西嘛新加坡因為印度勞工當年開放太快就是他們現在受到苦果他們現在一直在補這個洞我沒有說台灣跟新加坡一樣但是這是一個洞我們要拿來當作參考因為風險的邏輯會是一樣這個政策如果管理有問題會"},{"start":3599.34,"end":3622.239,"text":"將來會很難處理所以最後請你那個第一個監察院會不會依112年通案研究的基礎對印度移工或者是失聯移工惡化再啟動專案調查會不會有沒有辦法我沒辦法在這邊跟委員報告因為我們這監察委員獨立至少我一樣嘛你現在回就我剛剛講我可以跟你報告一點"},{"start":3624.521,"end":3632.785,"text":"那是不是至少提出建議我知道你一定會這樣回我我把立法院的質詢帶回去好 謝謝那第二個 請秘書處 監察業務處 綜合業務處把這些相關數據 包括我們今天的質詢案情 這些資料"},{"start":3641.129,"end":3647.513,"text":"能夠以行政資源這種案件管理這個概念你就交給監察委員讓他們是不是決定去立案好不好這就沒有問題嘛第三個希望在兩週內回覆目前有沒有這些我剛剛提到這些問題這些簽報列管啊議程啊所知陳情等等的這些動作好不好"},{"start":3658.82,"end":3674.63,"text":"因為我跟你講對好人更好對壞人更壞這國家施政的一個很重要的方向啦我們必須要保護人民我們會把責任擔起來我今天要求的不是要監察院表態這個異度移工要不要來的我不是要要求這個我只是說麻煩啟動"},{"start":3676.751,"end":3700.912,"text":"監督因為目前你們給我的報告十個人就有一個失聯中這個越來越嚴重那我當過檢察官我最在意的是國內的治安問題移工在國內目前確實有造成一些治安上面疑慮以及譬如說有一些人家說三老鼠他們有一些團體現在都變成移工在組成這個都已經現在實務上面的事實麻煩這個要由你們督促一下行政機關趕快處理這一塊"},{"start":3702.754,"end":3704.675,"text":"把委員隊的建議帶回去謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝委員指教謝謝好謝謝吳宗憲委員好那麼接下來我們有請審發會委員發言主席我們請秘書長有請秘書長"},{"start":3731.324,"end":3754.874,"text":"孫委員好 您好我們是老同事謝謝 請多指教今天在這個其實可以說是監察院的風雨飄搖的時刻你在這個時候來承擔那在這邊是先跟你說聲辛苦謝謝那這個"},{"start":3758.257,"end":3784.097,"text":"我今天大概主要要請教這個秘書長的部分是我們到目前為止中央政府總預算115年度的中央政府總預算今年度的總預算到現在還沒有審查這個依法他是要在去年12月31號之前就要審查完均但到現在還沒有審查那還沒有審查"},{"start":3785.236,"end":3788.563,"text":"我們現在就是怎麼辦就按照預算法第54條"},{"start":3789.741,"end":3817.711,"text":"沒錯就是去年的執行數我們今年繼續執行可是我們去年的執行數因為去年的預算的三減後來雖然經過大院給予追加減預算及動用第二預備金但是整個業務費的執行數大概也佔全年的三成左右我現在要講就是這個啦你按照預算法第54條這個第一項第二款第二目你們能夠你們事實上現在因為預算"},{"start":3820.033,"end":3844.324,"text":"這個今年度的預算到現在還沒有審查所以所有的政府機關都必須按照預算法第54條也就是說你們只能按照上年度的基準去動之是上年度的基準而且這個這個除了以貨授權的原定計劃還要按照上年度的執行數對上年度執行數下去下去這個核實動之"},{"start":3848.325,"end":3876.281,"text":"那其他行政機關到目前大家就雖然所有的新興計畫政府所有該做的一些新的新的一些建樹都沒有辦法動之外但是各個機關大家就按照這個預算法第54條這個按照去年的執行數來核實動之基本上維持政府的基本功能大致上還沒有問題但是我們監察院我就看你們的預算"},{"start":3877.895,"end":3904.183,"text":"你們去 你們預算在去年的預算114年度的預算就被砍了 砍到剩下差不多三成是不是對 就是一開始砍剩下4%而已4%而已後來信貸大院有追加啦追加到最後補足的大概有三成左右一點本來預算審查的時候你們那是被砍96%啦對對對如果沒有追加點預算的話沒有追加預算的話你們要用這4%的經費"},{"start":3905.883,"end":3923.231,"text":"維持去年一年,也就算了今年你們還要照這4%下去運作是這個意思,謝謝委員,演出這個重大問題後來增加之後你們大概差不多要三成了,30%啦30%你看你們該做的齁我看你們115年度你們所提出的預算是3億2400萬左右嘛"},{"start":3930.031,"end":3947.719,"text":"那但是你們按照這個預算法第五四條你們可以動資的剩下一億兩千一億零二萬是對不對三億變一億啊對只剩一億了一億多出頭而已這個吼這個包括你們的一般行政包括你們這個議事業務包括你們財產申報業務國家人權業務"},{"start":3951.71,"end":3979.91,"text":"這些我還不談資本門喔就光經常門就幾乎是動彈不得了啦動彈不得其實這裡面也包含很多我們的同仁的工作上的需要譬如說電費啦等等這些環境的維護啊我現在一向這些喔有一些東西大家辛苦我都要去很辛苦啦你們那些水電也什麼都沒得運作那這個都還是歧視你們有一些真正嚴重的"},{"start":3981.631,"end":3984.655,"text":"問題我今天就是要跟你談這些嚴重的問題第一個我們監察院我們按照這個這個"},{"start":3994.318,"end":4013.446,"text":"資通安全管理辦法按照資通安全管理辦法他授權的這個資通安全責任等級分級辦法我們監察院是是屬於什麼樣的機關哪一級的A級A級A級的嘛治安A級的機關為什麼我們監察院有什麼什麼重要我們的資訊安全的重要性在哪裡"},{"start":4013.766,"end":4035.981,"text":"跟大院報告我們監察人在調查這些案件的時候例如許多案件牽扯到國家的重要機密包括國防機密以及國安機密在內所以最後這些機密資料都以機密的方式傳遞給我們之後我們也必須要保存在院裡面尤其許多也是在電腦系統裡面"},{"start":4037.822,"end":4056.285,"text":"這就有資安上面我們要維護如果沒有足夠的經費建立足夠的防火牆等相關的防護機制的時候在資安上面也會造成許多的不只是這些防火牆等等這些問題按照我這邊法規我秀出來了按照這個自動安全責任等級辦法第四條"},{"start":4057.646,"end":4071.295,"text":"資通安全等級你們是A級A級是什麼第一個你剛剛講的涉及業務涉及國家機密這是剛剛講的包括很多有國防機密等等另外業務涉及全國性民眾服務及跨公務機關共用性質"},{"start":4074.617,"end":4095.259,"text":"的資通系統陳情人的個資再來就是個資陳情人公務員所有的個資都在你們電腦裡面我們監察院的資安是被列為A級就是全國最重要的但是不只你剛剛講的防火牆你按照這個資通安全等級辦法他第11條的這個附表"},{"start":4098.066,"end":4109.008,"text":"他有要求你們這些A級機關有很多事情要做啊不只是防火牆啊你們要必須要全部核心自動系統要導入CNS27001或者是ISO的27001"},{"start":4111.121,"end":4136.122,"text":"你們必須要獲得這些軟硬體授權你們還必須做這個完成第三方驗證這是依法法定你們資通安全該做的事情委員非常專業這都是我們資安上面必須要去達標的但是這些都需要預算來協助同仁去建置起來那怎麼辦才有足夠的安全性我特別請我們的資安長來跟您回應一下"},{"start":4138.776,"end":4157.584,"text":"報告委員其實就是向委員所秀出來的我們是A級機關我們有這樣子的法定義務那去年因為都沒有任何的預算所以本來我們應該做ISO認證的去年就沒有處理所以去年就沒有做了沒有處理一年沒有做今年有辦法做嗎今年我們用我們就是因為有一點點的追加"},{"start":4160.965,"end":4174.732,"text":"所以我們用最佳的預算趕快今年再把它處理可以全部處理嗎我剛講認證第三棒認證這些授權今年我們要做一定要做不足你們這個齁這個就是"},{"start":4177.045,"end":4198.758,"text":"我們法律要求我們監察院我們的治安必須要做到最高等級但是我們立法院卻給你們最低幾乎是零預算了簡單講幾乎是不給你們這個自動安全的預算我們即使是依照去年的執行數三成可是我們每個月的動資數也是有限所以在這個部分我們還是明顯不足"},{"start":4200.999,"end":4227.7,"text":"其他政府機關大家省吃儉用大家就維持基本運作可以是因為沒有像你們監察院被砍到剩下三成你們這三成結果你們去年三成就已經已經幾乎無法營運了今年還要再維持這樣子的執行數資訊我講這個資訊安全另外這牽涉到我們所有所有我們監察院頭不管我們"},{"start":4228.874,"end":4240.567,"text":"在野黨立委怎麼樣看待監察院監察委員的職權但是我們監察院有這麼多的公務人員在監察院裡面上班有關於消防安全消防安全的預算"},{"start":4243.332,"end":4268.597,"text":"對 我們這個消防設備已經大概是27年前的非常老 民國76年到將近60年的老舊 40年的老舊設備了所以這個設備本來是預計在去年要進行更新啦我看你們預算是4300萬被砍 被砍掉之後這個案子沒辦法做所以有時候就會產生一些消防上的疑慮這個齁"},{"start":4271.454,"end":4300.233,"text":"監察院非常特殊啦我們立法院你說中心大樓怎麼樣就算你們監察院還是古蹟啊是古蹟啊你們去年一年沒有經費維護這個古蹟一年兩年今年再按照去年的預算執行數還是沒有辦法維持這個古蹟再加上消防安全牽涉到所有在裡面工作的公務人員的這個性命安全結果我們立法院這樣子"},{"start":4302.721,"end":4326.321,"text":"這樣子在虐待我們這些在現場上班公務人員真的要請大院在預算上面來體恤到我們在現場工作的所有同仁他的業務上的需要 他的環境安全衛生的需要這種辦公環境的安全 消防的防護 基本設施的維護更遑論你們是個古蹟"},{"start":4328.431,"end":4338.935,"text":"這種公共安全的需求它是有即時性的而且如果一發生任何的意外我們監察院真的是會非常的遺憾這個剛剛講資安消防這個都是你們監察院的人"},{"start":4347.469,"end":4353.814,"text":"秘書長,今年是選舉,去年有沒有選舉?去年沒有選舉今年是選舉年啊,選舉年你們多了多少業務?政治獻金還有所謂財產申報相關的業務按照政治獻金法你們就是受理政治獻金申報的機關啊"},{"start":4369.775,"end":4374.84,"text":"沒有選舉你們就沒有這個業務但是今年是選舉年按照過去的選舉我調了107年107年這個政治現金專戶就有2305戶111年有2306戶"},{"start":4390.506,"end":4415.157,"text":"我們今年大概會有一萬多個候選人預估啦一萬多個候選人對 一萬多個候選人 每個人都要但是你們只能按照去年的預算來執行去年有這條預算嗎都砍掉了那怎麼辦 我們的這些政治獻金大家就可以隨便報在這裡先預告所有的候選人今年監察院沒有預算可以審大家的政治獻金了大家隨便報也不會像柯文哲這種下場啦"},{"start":4416.311,"end":4434.275,"text":"是這樣嗎我們還是會盡力去維護但是要真的請大院給予支持讓這筆預算能夠通過讓我們能夠在今年年底大選的時候政治現金相關的審查能夠落實再加上還有就是所有公職人員的財產申報能夠落實那當然這就是屬於候選人以及公職人的權利在這裡利用這個機會因為我們監察院"},{"start":4445.239,"end":4458.773,"text":"要來這個立法院列席的機會並不多所以我今天利用這個機會我也是希望說我們委員會大家所有不分黨派的委員大家可以理解這不是你們政治立場上面你們"},{"start":4459.958,"end":4480.782,"text":"你們對憲政機關有什麼意見而是這裡面我剛剛所講的這些資訊安全這些消防安全甚至今年選舉年有關政治獻金跟這個財產申報的這些相關事務今年選舉年去年的預算去年就算預算完成百分之百通過今年還是要多這些業務結果現在只能動用預算的30%"},{"start":4487.15,"end":4501.995,"text":"所以我是在這裡成人也讓社會大家了解目前今年入的中央政府總預算到現在還不審查到現在還不審查連協商都不協商它所造成的後果"},{"start":4503.803,"end":4526.715,"text":"所造成的後果我們在監察院上面看得最最最清楚啦他對國家安全對於對於這個國家資訊安全對於這整個選舉的這些這些陽光法案的執行他的影響之大在這裡希望齁我們本委員會的委員齁大家能夠有共同有所提認啦齁大家黨派立場不同沒關係一切以國家為重啦齁謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":4530.404,"end":4535.266,"text":"好 謝謝沈委員那接下來我們有請林沛翔委員發言好 謝謝主席有請黃秘書長有請黃秘書長"},{"start":4553.317,"end":4564.815,"text":"今天本席想用一個法學上很嚴肅但是其實很生活化的問題來開場當一個機關人民不相信他的時候權力還剩下多少"},{"start":4566.773,"end":4591.233,"text":"監察院身為我們國家最高的監察機關依照憲政設計負責糾舉彈劾違法失職的公務員並保障人民的權益這些職權在制度裡面都寫得很漂亮但是我想請問一個最根本的問題請問黃秘書長是否認同監察權最重要的基礎不是權力本身而是人民的信任當然 我認同"},{"start":4593.214,"end":4614.943,"text":"因為其實這不是哲學問題這是一個憲法實踐的問題沒有信任再完整的制度也只是紙上談兵那接下來我想問第二個問題而且可能會稍微比較務實比較尖銳一點監察院我們認證是一個事實就是為什麼現在社會對監察院的信任正在快速的流失呢"},{"start":4616.724,"end":4636.816,"text":"這個部分我跟委員有不同的意見就是所謂的信證的流失我們從我們的監察院的陳情數字來看事實上去年大概也是八萬兩千多件的數字一整屆卻不是去年上一屆第五屆但目前為止本院人民的陳情的案件已經高達八萬六千多件"},{"start":4637.076,"end":4656.481,"text":"預計這一屆結實的時候會飆到十萬件也就是說人民對監察院還是有所期待的等一下我們會談到說監察院這方面有關建樹的問題但是老實說現在目前社會的觀感上面很直接該查的不查不該查最查的很勤"},{"start":4657.481,"end":4673.055,"text":"這句話雖然不中聽但是如果我們不去面對它就會一直存在講更白話一點這其實就是一個法律的問題檢察院有沒有選擇性行使監察權的疑慮舉一個具體的案例來請教好了"},{"start":4673.675,"end":4695.66,"text":"我記得如果沒有錯的話應該是前年的4月24號吧針對侯友宜市長35年前的舊案羅易事案重新被啟動調查甚至要求本人到監察院說明那我也想從最基本的法律結構上面來說起第一侯市長在當年的案件中是不是專案負責人啊"},{"start":4696.468,"end":4717.335,"text":"第二他是不是這個案件裡面的決策者呢如果兩者皆非那麼請問他在法律他在案中的法律地位是什麼是違法失職的行為人還是僅僅是關係人委員這個畢竟是個案我是不是請我們施議委員會主任秘書來跟您說目前這個案子過了剛好快兩年那這個其實也蠻明確的如果只是關係人"},{"start":4725.057,"end":4745.066,"text":"那監察院動用調查權要求到場說明秘書長還有各位我們監察院所有的所有的同仁們我們都知道公務人員四大法則合法合理必要比例原則那我就想請問這個案子請侯友宜市長到監察院說明請問他的必要性跟比例原則在哪裡"},{"start":4747.443,"end":4765.488,"text":"我是不是請市議委員會的主秘來回答委員的問題讓我繼續講完好了因為這個案子我那時候看的時候覺得有點不好意思身為立法委員覺得有點匪夷所思跟您插嘴不好意思那更有就是檢察委員曾經表示這個調查不追究個人責任只是為了還原事實"},{"start":4767.054,"end":4783.411,"text":"聽到這句話我本席身為一個國會議員其實我蠻困惑的因為我要請教的是監察院現在的法定職權到底是彈劾違法失職還是負責還原歷史那如果說後者我們要把監察院考慮成為歷史研究院"},{"start":4787.793,"end":4815.651,"text":"那更關鍵的是在事實認定上面憲政分工上面本來就是所謂司法院的所屬的司法權核心那我必須在這邊請教秘書長跟我們監察院的長官監察院在這種進行這類不為彈劾只為還原的調查時是否已經在邊界上跟司法權產生衝疊我們這個先就個案跟您說明"},{"start":4817.326,"end":4842.644,"text":"報告委員 這個案子是羅毅市向本院提出陳情羅毅市是加拿大的台籍人士他針對當時入出國移民法的時候他遭到非法逮捕的一個案子那其中他指稱侯友宜當時作為中山分局的刑事組組長是有問題所以在程序上我們不需要 那我想請問 還是回到剛剛的問題"},{"start":4844.285,"end":4870.525,"text":"請問侯友宜是這個專案的負責人嗎請問侯友宜是當時的決策者嗎當初針對羅毅士先生的逮捕是侯友宜一手去設法規辦的嗎如果不是那他是關係人吧那關係人就必須要監察院受到監察委員的調查那我實在有點害怕因為甚至說未來各位所有的人只要有人舉報只要監察委員覺得可以那請來監察院說明請問一下這是為了還人還為了彈劾"},{"start":4874.246,"end":4898.797,"text":"好 謝謝 我想這個案我們已經討論到這邊了那我想請講那我是不是就那個委員提到說我們有沒有跟司法權這個邊界清不清楚根據大法官會議解釋監察權監察院本身就是一個准司法的機關所以難怪會委員會有那樣的疑問說那我跟司法權是不是有涉事實上我們在准司法的過程當然有"},{"start":4899.437,"end":4923.077,"text":"第一個我們會運用司法的程序所以在過程都要獨立啦等等這些都是司法的程序來進行第二個在司法權上面我們等於是司法權的先行的一個機關所以才會有譬如說我們談判之後就會所以兩邊的確有一點overlap對吧這兩個字是有overlap對吧不能叫我們其實那個邊界還蠻清晰只是我們叫做準司法的概念"},{"start":4925.379,"end":4944.653,"text":"這個325號大法官會議解釋我想繼續提另外一個剛剛您提到一個很有趣的問題就是今年的這個人民陳情案件會超過十萬件那我想請問一下每年大概多少那我想請問一下不是今年我們這一屆這一屆十萬上一屆大概是八萬二上一屆整屆大概是八萬二那這一屆我們預估會應該"},{"start":4947.096,"end":4955.834,"text":"所以一年兩萬件嘛對不對那我想請問一下每一年受理的差不多兩萬一千件左右嘛那想請問其中真正啟動調查的比例是多少"},{"start":4962.009,"end":4980.799,"text":"跟委員說明我們的任期是六年所以每年大概是一萬五到一萬八左右那每年調查多少屆除了那個調查案我們六屆到現在為止是1564案那可是因為這一屆我們有監察法第30條的委託調查"},{"start":4982.85,"end":4996.722,"text":"那這個委託調查其實也是一種調查的方式請暫停一下不管是委託調查還是直接你說的1564件也好比例差不多十分之一我在說明一下那個委託調查的件數大概我們現在目前統計到3月底是3809件"},{"start":5000.525,"end":5022.276,"text":"所以加起來應該是大概是百分之如果說真的那種派查案的比例我說一千五百多的大概百分之二這個百分之二的派查率跟所有的國際上的國際監察組織比起來是一個合理正常而且不定的組織既然不是每一案都查那請問你們的選案標準是什麼"},{"start":5024.207,"end":5036.259,"text":"我具體請教三點第一個有沒有明確的篩選標準第二個這個標準有沒有對外公開過第三個還是實務上由個別監察委員自行判斷"},{"start":5038.693,"end":5066.23,"text":"我說明一下就是監察院有一個監察院的立案派查原則他在立案派查原則第三點有條列是出實款有說哪些案子是應該比如說有重大的違法失職比如說是有機關的維持等等的就是跟扣合監察職權我們有一個立案派查原則他是一個法規你現在已經回了我就覺得很疑惑那如果回到2024年4月24號侯友宜的案子請問是屬於哪一項啊"},{"start":5070.276,"end":5087.47,"text":"我現在講的是說全國民眾對這件事情甚至有時候法學界對這件事情有些疑慮的地方那如果沒有清楚一致可預測的標準是不是說裁量權是否過度擴張而缺乏外部監督呢"},{"start":5091.244,"end":5118.238,"text":"那甚至從人民的角度看更簡單了為什麼有些案件剛剛講說一年差不多一萬八嘛一萬五到一萬八嘛那每年去受審的差不多多少十趴還是五趴每年的案件你們現在列案的案件加起來如果每年這樣的話每年一萬五千件一半八千件那等於說每年平均分擔的話那個受審率是多少受審率的意思"},{"start":5118.769,"end":5142.408,"text":"就是說你們現在正式成立案要去調查的案子我們畢竟是來講監察院的功能我們不是來講數學那從人民的角度看起來那更簡單啦為什麼有些案件曾經多年沒有下文那為什麼有些案件甚至幾十年前的舊案卻可以重新啟動而且動作還很快這樣的差異請問是基於客觀標準還是主觀選擇"},{"start":5150.849,"end":5164.164,"text":"報告委員我們都是基於陳情人所提的證據有沒有對於案件事實加以聲明來決定立法與否所以基本上採用證據法則如果人民陳情的空犯那我們沒辦法立案謝謝"},{"start":5166.579,"end":5187.05,"text":"所以老實說問題從來都不是監察院有沒有在做事而是是不是用同一把尺來做事人民其實要求的不高他們在意的是我的案子有沒有被查到他們在意的是同樣的事情是不是用同樣的標準來對待如果監察院沒有辦法讓人民相信兩件事"},{"start":5188.11,"end":5215.17,"text":"監察院的行使權是政治中立的調查標準是前後一致可受檢驗的那我們今天問題就不是只有個案爭議而是整個制度性正當性的動搖最後面我想回到一個最基本的這個建設性的問題做總結監察院是否已經提出還是即將提出具體的改革方案來回應當前的信任危機呢"},{"start":5220.519,"end":5239.815,"text":"跟委員說明其實監察院每一年在法規上面都有要求要做年度的檢討所以我們每一年的檢討會對於這年度的狀況做檢討也會對未來做一些提示有沒有考慮建立所謂公開透明的案件篩選機制呢"},{"start":5242.097,"end":5263.693,"text":"是 那剛剛因為我有說明我們有一個立案派查原則它就是一個準則那優先順序的客標指關呢是 那原則上我們每一件人民陳情案件都會依法處理就絕對不會把它吃案那是否先查院應該本身開始強化對監察委員裁量權的內部跟外部監督呢"},{"start":5265.075,"end":5284.608,"text":"跟委員說明這個委員立案其實還是有一定的行政程序那委員提出調查報告也有委員會的審查程序所以雖然監察委員是依據法律然後依據法律超越黨派獨立行使職權可是還是有一些審查的機制"},{"start":5287.433,"end":5310.384,"text":"監察院的價值是在於監督權力但是當人民已經開始監督監察院的時候代表的絕對不是民主跟進步代表是警訊已經響起我期待監察院能夠用制度來回應質疑而不是用個案來解釋個案讓監察權回到它應有的位置不是讓人懷疑的權力而是讓人安心的制度"},{"start":5311.805,"end":5334.543,"text":"我們的準司法的制度當然一定就是秉持的立法的原則啦其實我們很多的相關的管制也是從立法原則而來例如說我們必須要行政中立獨立於黨派這當然就是從這個原則我們來進行在進行的過程我們也時時刻刻我看到所有的監委都兢兢業業在做這件事所有的同仁也依據這些原則在進行之中"},{"start":5335.083,"end":5356.742,"text":"所以我這樣大院真的可以放心我們的監察院真的有努力把行政中立等這個原則做到最好這樣子跟秘書長分享一下目前不是本席覺得現在我們監察院是有疑問的而是普遍人民對監察院都沒有什麼信心以上 謝謝謝謝您的指教 謝謝好 謝謝林委員"},{"start":5362.695,"end":5364.137,"text":"接下來我們請范雲委員發言有請黃秘書長"},{"start":5386.524,"end":5412.799,"text":"女士長早安今天主要是要跟您請教兒童監察室這個部分我想我要先肯定監察院調查兒女跟校園性平事件有非常多的突破跟貢獻你們相關的報告我都有加以閱讀也讓我在質詢相關部會的缺失的時候有了一個可以改善的依據"},{"start":5413.859,"end":5436.04,"text":"那這兩樣譬如說戲曲學院的性侵案還有台大的涉姦性平安那監察院在這方面的貢獻可以說是可圈可點那但是我想我也非常憂慮因為新聞還有我們在立法院有看到你們的114年度的預算案業務費招商96%"},{"start":5438.823,"end":5456.321,"text":"那你們沒有辦法好好的行使職權那後來我有看到你們提出的釋憲案那我想這方面不知道人權會就國家人權的委員會的執行的效能是不是受到限制因為我看到最近兩公約"},{"start":5457.763,"end":5471.799,"text":"國際審查委員連他們都關注了預算的問題那這是他們提交的問題清單是2025年12月提出的那不曉得人權會的執行效能有沒有受到限制如果有受到限制是哪方面的限制"},{"start":5472.239,"end":5489.842,"text":"我首先先謝謝委員關心這個話題這話題對監察院的影響非常巨大那當然我首先以這個概括性的來向委員報告我們確實整個院當然包括國家人權委員會的職權的行使受到非常非常大的限制因為"},{"start":5490.583,"end":5517.18,"text":"真的太多我們對於包括您來關心剛才提示關心的兒少的問題以及我們許多的報告等等這些都受到了衝擊那相關的細節我是不是請國家人權委員會執行秘書來跟你報告受到哪些衝擊那可以因為時間有限可以30秒內告訴我嗎因為我知道我們總預算未審那也會使得你們的預算必須要比照去年那可以一併講嗎 謝謝"},{"start":5518.661,"end":5539.314,"text":"好 30秒好 謝謝委員關切這個議題那我快速報告一下就是目前我們今年度要辦理的業務裡面比方說像兩公約還有CDO以及CRPD的國際審查那在這部分我們有撰寫了獨立評估意見可是呢過去我們這些獨立評估意見它可以把它再轉譯成一些比方說簡易版然後易讀版"},{"start":5540.675,"end":5558.55,"text":"然後以及就是點字版這一類的那可是現在都沒有辦法所以其實它會影響一些身心障礙者的他的在了解這些議題上面的一個權利對那第二就是我們其實今年有通過一個調查案是要針對身心障礙者的搭乘大眾預輸工具上面一個受到歧視這樣一個調查案"},{"start":5561.773,"end":5582.194,"text":"可是因為目前沒有預算所以目前是暫緩執行那此外就是像今年的3月31號到4月2號是全球的國家人權機構聯盟的一個會議那雖然我們不是聯合國的會員但是其實它每一次都會有一些side event是我們可以參與的但是因為今年也沒有這些經費"},{"start":5583.175,"end":5598.744,"text":"所以目前都是暫停那這幾個其實就是目前我們現在很明顯面臨的那接下來就是要面對CRC的國際公約的審查所以其實這部分在召開專家諮詢等等的上面其實目前都會有一些困難可能都必須要透過視訊等方式來辦理"},{"start":5600.245,"end":5625.622,"text":"了解 至少我聽到的就是我補充一句話剛才執密所報告這些內容都是由大院所通過的國家人權委員會的組織法所訂定的法定職權所以法定職權我們真的受到重大的衝擊因此沒有辦法把大院所列的這些法定職權非常順利的來執行"},{"start":5627.103,"end":5641.796,"text":"那我聽到的就是預算業務費遭刪96%然後加上今年的總預算至今未審所以你們必須要依照去年至少已經使得身心障礙的權益受傷也使得兒童權利"},{"start":5642.637,"end":5670.97,"text":"相關公約的國際交流沒辦法像原本期待的方式進行那我真的是覺得非常的遺憾那也希望今天下午我們有政黨協商那總預算的部分至少能夠順利復違那延續我剛剛關心的兒虐跟校士的兒童權益的問題我想這邊秘書長你有看到這幾年兒童權益真的是不斷的有事件"},{"start":5671.65,"end":5687.147,"text":"包含今年就有台中國小棒球教練的性侵案兩年前也有南投前國小校長的性侵案之前還有資優班的老師性侵案然後更早還有南投的兒少安置機構性侵案"},{"start":5688.008,"end":5708.943,"text":"這些都還是發生在國家的機構因為學校都是公立的學校安置機構也都有得到相關的部會的支持跟管理那我有個看法是不是能夠設立獨立的兒童監督單位那這部分想要請教就是監察院的意見"},{"start":5709.864,"end":5726.259,"text":"因為我看到CRC國家報告的國際審查意見中其中有提到第15項委員會建議應該盡速依照聯合國兒童權利委員會第二號一般性意見成立國家人權機構這個你們已經有了並內涉監督兒童權利的專責單位"},{"start":5731.124,"end":5755.442,"text":"或是成立兒童監察使辦公室或者是設置兒童權利委員所以國際審查委員的意見覺得你們裡面可以設置兒童權利的專責機構或者是兒童監察使那我們立法院也早就10年12年前就通過了兒童權利公約那2002年CRC委員會就有這個意見了兒童監察使"},{"start":5757.203,"end":5773.049,"text":"我想再給您看各國的例子我這邊有列出的挪威是全球第一個有這個做法的是1981年瑞典1993年也有兒童監察史還有專法波蘭也有專法愛爾蘭"},{"start":5776.01,"end":5798.167,"text":"也是有專法有兒童監察使他不只是監督還有做政策建議社會教育日本則有地方層級的韓國有中央到地方層級的推動我看到你們今天有提到希望本院能夠審查你們相關的法規所以我想請教就是說有沒有可能你們來評估"},{"start":5799.828,"end":5822.078,"text":"在兒童監察室方面放在監察院裡面的可行性也能夠符合CRC的人權規範因為現在很多的師生不管是霸凌或者是性侵爭議都沒有第三方的調查那還是在學校裡頭能不能有獨立的第三方兒童權益的監察專責機制"},{"start":5824.099,"end":5844.816,"text":"能夠專門監察兒童權利的落實情況那也能夠支持符合國際兒童公約的兒童表意等權利呢那你們有沒有可能去做一個評估剛才針對委員剛才的質詢裡面有分兩個層次我是以這兩個層次來回答第一個層次是說針對目前台灣的制度上面的建議"},{"start":5845.937,"end":5868.121,"text":"第一個我們在2021年到2025年之間我們也總共監察院完成了112件關於兒少人權的調查報告總共112件裡面我大概的通篇重點就是說只在我們政府要加強的地方往往就是所謂的通報機制相關的建立要完善"},{"start":5868.741,"end":5885.96,"text":"這是第一個第二個法制上面回到你們的制度面好不好法制上面剛才委員一直呼籲要成立的所謂的這個兒童監察室這樣的一個概念因為這是涉及到整體的制度性的改變跟修法"},{"start":5886.46,"end":5911.274,"text":"那其實相關的功能其實我們國家人權委員會已經把它都全部都負擔起來了那未來如果要成立專責的以兒童為目標的這樣子一個監察室或相關的機關構的這樣的概念的時候試射到法治是不是容我們回去我們的內部必須要再做更進一步的研討才有辦法對委員做正式的一個說明等等"},{"start":5912.034,"end":5933.05,"text":"因為我看到的資料你們過去有評估過那但是兒童權益的被傷害的情況這幾年跟你們當年評估的情況已經不可同日而語那尤其是少子化那其實大家特別的重視兒童權益那我們在國際兒童公約的一個對話上也比過去更精進所以是不是能夠"},{"start":5933.931,"end":5952.142,"text":"您的目標絕對是我們大家共同的目標我們一定會朝著這個目標來做只是在法制上面容我們有一個去延期延商的空間謝謝您願意回去延商評估那是不是可以一個月可以給本席相關的報告還是時間太短也可以再延長"},{"start":5957.188,"end":5968.383,"text":"因為這個涉及到制度跟法規所以我們可能需要稍微長一點的時間是不是給本院三個月的時間三個月的時間喔三個月 兩個月好不好"},{"start":5969.143,"end":5994.29,"text":"兩個月跟委員報告這真的是因為我們現在有國家人權委員會他本身在做那在這個體制下要怎麼樣這個兒童監察室怎麼樣去融合跟全國的行政機關之間這到底有一個有一個五院的分權等等的問題在內當然就是說我們立委都比較希望能夠更快有結果你們兩個月就是就算沒有結論也可以先給我一個報告好不好可以可以謝謝委員指教謝謝"},{"start":5997.008,"end":6015.228,"text":"好謝謝范園委員接下來我們請鍾瑞雄委員發言謝謝昭緯有請我們監察院黃秘書長"},{"start":6019.772,"end":6046.931,"text":"好 請黃秘書長秘書長好有幾個問題我想來就教監察院你現在來看的話是很尷尬的一個機關不管是立法院或者是外界其實很多人也認為說那監察院一個國家裡面的一個制度何去何從該把監察院把它給廢掉大家覺得是一個盲腸的一個機關就這些話聽在秘書長你的"},{"start":6050.159,"end":6076.798,"text":"你會不會覺得有點感觸請教你的看法我沒有感觸我只是覺得監察權絕對要繼續進行下去只是說他過去大家在討論的議題應該是說這個權利應該獨立成一個監察院還是回歸到立法院其實世界各國只要是三權分立大部分的監察權是附屬在立法院也就是說委員您質詢完之後發現有重大的問題以後進行調查"},{"start":6078.559,"end":6095.447,"text":"甚至可以提出相關例如彈劾等等的懲戒然後再送到懲戒法院去進行司法的訴訟如果有失職或是違法的公務人員予以免職、停職、降級、減俸等相關的懲處"},{"start":6100.309,"end":6120.694,"text":"這個是應該一整套的配套秘書長你提的是另外一個層次的問題但是本席在問的就是說其實在國會裡面各個政黨其實都是主張把建財用給廢掉可是大家的看法怎麼樣去廢那大家的看法有所不同民主進步黨我相信連秘書長你過去的一個主張也認為"},{"start":6121.354,"end":6136.617,"text":"那就修憲嘛就來修憲我們當然是尊重完全尊重修憲的結論那當然所以廢建財運的進度裡面可是你現在又碰到一個問題就尷尬了建財運現在29個第六屆好像是不足現在是26"},{"start":6139.7,"end":6163.258,"text":"二十五 法定是二十九嘛那你現在二十五位那第六屆就到今年的七月底就結束了就全部都離任了接下來要另外全部的人要另一波新的提名嘛那如果假設總統來提名那你這個國民黨主張他就認為這個全部都不要人就不用再補了"},{"start":6163.786,"end":6183.201,"text":"那台灣民眾黨他們立場也很清楚各個政黨其實都很清楚但主張會有所不同那結果好來了會產生一個狀況監察院這一屆7月31號全部結束以後你說5月份開始提名那送到立法院來那以現在的政治局勢來看的話通殺啦"},{"start":6184.096,"end":6211.823,"text":"就是還不會過關啦那不會過關問題來了你去把他看為什麼說你們尷尬呢立法院就把你預算全部砍光光說那監察院那盲腸那不好那吃完米的聽起來我的意思是說你這樣會有一個感觸但是你去把他看這個在野黨其實把預算砍光光說是一個盲腸機關轉過頭來你看他又跑到你們那邊去啦說這個卓院長喔卓榮泰不附屬喔已請監察院來彈劾要很看重你們喔所以"},{"start":6212.643,"end":6223.959,"text":"老百姓其實我一直認為監察院還是一個老百姓深淵的一個地方還是有這樣的一個功能可是碰到國內在政治鬥爭的時候監察院你就變成尚方寶劍如果要去背革的孫子"},{"start":6230.948,"end":6257.969,"text":"所以我是覺得說這個感觸我是指這一方面但是司法院大法官的一個釋字的632號的一個解釋裡面也確實確保整個監察院的實質的一個存續跟正常的一個運行他認為是憲法憲政機關責無旁貸的一個職責除非你去走修憲的一個路可是我有幾個問題要請教就是說如果現在都沒有任何配套"},{"start":6258.689,"end":6262.721,"text":"把它廢掉了以後 實質上讓它停擺啦都不會通過了"},{"start":6264.605,"end":6285.771,"text":"那個停擺造成的損害秘書長你有要向社會做一個說明嗎譬如說我很擔心就是你這個國家人權委員會那你也是在監察院現在的一個所在那如果說監委沒有辦法繼續來順利的一個任命的話那你現在對我國所推動的各項的人權調查國際人權公約這樣的衝擊會有什麼樣的一個打擊請教"},{"start":6291.512,"end":6309.192,"text":"如果依照現在比如說委員不通過或是類似像預算三零這反而是一種廢監察權我們剛才一直在講到說外界說要廢監察院可是你如果沒有委員沒有預算是不是真正的權利的行使反而就不見了"},{"start":6309.793,"end":6329.859,"text":"那不見的情況之下他傷害的反而是我們要協助的人民我們第一屆有十萬個陳情這十萬個陳情需要監察院來替他們找出行政機關的問題甚至有些是弊案來解決問題懲罰這些公務人員也就是說整治關真"},{"start":6331.099,"end":6352.954,"text":"有些在國家人權委員會他有許多人權上面要去維護的地方因為沒有錢沒有委員反而任何的行政處分我們都不能進行在這種情況之下反而是廢了監察權他不是廢院沒有錯但是廢了權讓整個權都沒有辦法執行的時候反而不是人民的福氣"},{"start":6361.099,"end":6386.75,"text":"也有一些問題啊監察院自己本身啊你有沒有覺得看錯的地方啊你像譬如說啊公視針對第五屆跟第七屆公視董事的延宕監察院應該兩天去跟他們糾正文化部啊對不對文化部也是要理你啊問題到現在也沒有真正解決啊上個禮拜四你看那個董監董監事的這個審查委員會的八名審查委員現在人家聯名跟立法院院長跟他說我們請辭喔"},{"start":6388.669,"end":6408.8,"text":"你去把它看這種情況啊你看從第五屆的董事由第四屆延任長達968天第七屆董事第六屆延任嘛高霸歸綱審查委員的消極資格條件同意權門檻的計算方式是否採記名投票是否可以委託代理審查委員由誰來召開是立法院還是文化部"},{"start":6409.62,"end":6425.866,"text":"這都長期失靈了,你去跟他說,他也不會理你,你給他糾正喔所以說,監察院對這種以糾正,他不甩你沒有去改善的機關,現在大家在跟你們說,你給他糾正也不好,你們有補嗎?還是你們只能顛倒為止而已"},{"start":6430.953,"end":6444.571,"text":"其實我們這兩個兩次的這個所謂的那個任命的狀況我們都有糾正案那糾正案甚至到現在我們都還是在追蹤行政機關要切實的改善這問題那當然"},{"start":6446.533,"end":6470.366,"text":"是不是法治相關的問題就必須要行政機關他來面對讓這個問題能夠解決包括我們監察院現在假設沒有權沒有人沒有委員的時候當然也會產生類似的狀況所以我們也期待在未來在這個監察職權的行使上面能夠讓我們能夠為著針對人民的需要來進行監察權的行使"},{"start":6470.926,"end":6497.743,"text":"這個都不忍苛責啦 因為以現在的政治氣氛來看的話監察院並不是一個強勢的一個機關啦所以啊 就像秘書長所講的整個監察權的一個形式啊 就會產生這麼大的一個落差我現在 以前的監察院就不是這樣耶以前的監察院你真的殺給他 嚇嚇他 打下去 把他打下去結果你把他打下去了 不會理你我再舉一個例子啊 你跟台大 拆文資法"},{"start":6500.112,"end":6518.943,"text":"這個起源地 我們監察院的調查的一個作為你看看過去三年 因為都更改革開發的推進溫州街那個地方 我看很多台大老師都住那個地方五十二巷 日式公寓 那個宿舍啊反覆在一再上演 叫一間 又聽一間這種抗爭的行動那我們眼睜睜的去看著兩位對台灣學術跟文資界"},{"start":6525.006,"end":6546.912,"text":"有奠基貢獻的領袖文資法的支付大家講的就是陳其祿跟台灣島史觀海洋性格提出的提出者曹永和兩個人在溫州街的故居你看這照片2024年跟2025年相繼被宣告不具文資價值在四個月內火速拆除"},{"start":6547.432,"end":6563.211,"text":"引起文史團體的不滿那也促使監察院去決議調查 釐清我是覺得這個都非常諷刺就是說呢這個對台灣文化歷史記憶的一個刪除然後也意味著對文資保存意識的一個退步那"},{"start":6564.546,"end":6590.934,"text":"這個都是過去文資的一個推動者他本席的意思就是說如果任由這種具備高度歷史精神指標的建物被系統性的拆除那你怎麼去面對過去在艱難環境下保護台灣文化的這些前輩我為什麼會提出這樣的一個問題就是說監察院針對此案我覺得可以更強力的一個作為"},{"start":6592.287,"end":6609.924,"text":"老闆你看台大不知道要怎麼去批評你知道嗎台大現在校方坐擁369棟50年以上的建物其中具備文資身份者68棟未具文資身份者301棟"},{"start":6611.605,"end":6629.927,"text":"這個你們也跟我說你們責任保存的責任重大你們現在都消極維護積極去拆除你們跟他下這個很好玩你跟他說他們都是消極維護但是很積極在拆除那也就是說台大他本身的想法就很簡單我都沒有錢"},{"start":6631.449,"end":6652.278,"text":"監察院你跟他說有啦 你有兩百個校務基金啦但是他投入這些錢 投入文資的維護的經費這百分之零點三 這你如果講得很清楚但重點就是說 本席的看法就是說校方還是一樣把監察院看衰無視監察院調查的意見 甚至以安全為由火速拆除"},{"start":6653.902,"end":6663.608,"text":"這種有歷史文化意義的故居實在都是應該好好去檢討的一個必要監察院後續你們還有什麼手段嗎"},{"start":6665.921,"end":6690.328,"text":"因為您提到的這個案子還在整個調查中還在整個追蹤中所以還沒有結案在沒有結案的時候因為秘書長在這邊依照法令的限制我們沒辦法針對還沒有結案的個案來跟您做說明但是我們監察院的委員以及進行調查的協查的同仁一定會基於公平正義的原則把這個案子好好辦下去"},{"start":6691.686,"end":6719.343,"text":"這就是在說一個社會到底是否願意為整個記憶來承擔成本那其實文化保存最常被誤解的地方就是它常常說好像是這一些保存者看中這些文化資產的人是反對改變但是真正的保存它倒不是拒絕未來而是拒絕只有一種的未來所以文化保存"},{"start":6720.199,"end":6747.685,"text":"太重要了本時提這個只有一個一個關鍵就是認為說監察院其實雖然現在得到人質同意權得到立法院給你們看衰得到國政黨給你們看衰但是就像秘書長你所講的你這個監察權的一個行使裡面該去把它發揮到對強度尤其是公視這個尤其是台大這個你如果沒有一個強勢的作為"},{"start":6748.717,"end":6759.764,"text":"你談這個監察權慢慢不是只有消滅在這段期間裡面你會發現你毫無作為是對不起這個社會的喔好不好是 謝謝委員指教好 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":6765.741,"end":6782.302,"text":"接下来我这里先做一个会议程序的预告那么稍后在林倩琪委员询答完毕之后我们就休息五分钟那接下来我们有请张亚琳委员发言"},{"start":6792.254,"end":6808.303,"text":"謝謝主席 我們有請祕書長好 祕書長好 祕書長好我想今天我想要跟祕書長來討論有關於台中教練性侵的這個事件希望這個監察院來針對這些事件來做一些調查就是說"},{"start":6809.644,"end":6825.454,"text":"這個其實在去年3月我就開始關心教育部啦那教育部其實也有去關心台中市政府啦但是我想大家從最近的新聞可以看見這個棒球教練松信教練呢他其實已經這個受害者已經突破了這個53名"},{"start":6828.138,"end":6847.029,"text":"還是80名這個數字現在好像教育局跟新聞報導掌握的是完全不一樣的那其實後來在上個禮拜也可以看到就是說台中市政府其實也並沒有懲處這個教育局所以這件事情凸顯的是什麼是我們雖然有一些制度但是現場的執行是失靈的"},{"start":6848.61,"end":6873.727,"text":"那這件事件呢佳恆誇了非常的多年那也不是個別的一個犯罪問題啦因為其實我們從過去呢我自己這邊也關注了許多有關於這些兒少性侵的這些案件之後呢我們不管是新竹縣啦花蓮縣啦或是今天早上最新的新聞是在台北在北部的這個某個競技學校也有類似的這樣子的狀況那所以呢"},{"start":6874.688,"end":6883.119,"text":"我認為在我們在教練的聘任查衡到日常的監督機制其實都沒有發揮應該有的一個作用那我也非常高興可以看到我們監察院的慧龍監委其實已經申請自動調查了"},{"start":6886.738,"end":6907.766,"text":"但是呢我是在想請問因為這個東西並不是只是這個案件它其實是一個跨縣市一個結構性的問題我們是不是可以針對體育班的部分來做一個更完整的這個調查呢不然如果我們只有處理這個個案的話接下來很有可能還是會有下一個悲劇發生"},{"start":6908.846,"end":6920.336,"text":"這個如果委員您提到的是台中這個個案因為基於法令的限制我沒辦法在這邊針對這個個案跟您我不是要查個案我要查這頂預班整個機制的話我們跟您報告關於這個運動教練狼屍的類似的案件我們整個第六屆監委"},{"start":6929.964,"end":6947.651,"text":"已經有提出六件調查報告而且有五件通過糾正那其實這個糾正的過程統合整個脈絡簡單的回答也就是說我們已經具體的要求行政機關是在哪裡呢就是整個通報機制的改善"},{"start":6948.531,"end":6974.271,"text":"這整個通報機制我們要求行政機關一定要做改善不論通報機制是在設置教練仲裁或紀律委員會建立同儕通報以外呢還有對於不適任運動教練的通報以及地方查驗代理教師的資料將不適任教師列入教練列入通報我這樣聽起來其實是我了解我們現在有些這樣子的"},{"start":6975.331,"end":6991.96,"text":"當時有提出一些這樣的報告的確有一些在執行但我想要針對的是體育班這樣子的一個機制裡面是不是為什麼他們更容易就是這樣子的重大事件層出不朽我們是不是可以針對體育班的一個這樣子的性侵的案件做一個系統性統整性的一個調查呢"},{"start":6993.14,"end":7012.039,"text":"這個案子我們就針對這個體育班正在調查中不僅是體育班的這個制度不是只有台中市我知道這個制度上面透過這個個案我們會看得更清楚好謝謝那再繼續講就是說因為剛剛其實秘書長也有提到說我們提出了一些不適任教練應該要如何的去查詢可是實際上"},{"start":7013.3,"end":7024.038,"text":"那個 秘書長我請你看一下這一個公告齁這是主協的公告請問一下我是一個家長我看到這個不適應教練之後我要知道他是誰嗎我要如何知道他是誰是"},{"start":7026.175,"end":7054.893,"text":"江圈圈黃圈圈涉性侵兒少事件我家長看到這個我要怎麼知道這個到底是誰我們根本無從得知我們現在的這個公告機制是沒有辦法讓家長安心的等於是說家長在把小孩送去不管是做俱樂部的訓練也好或是送去學校也好他根本是瞎子摸象完全不知道他到底送進去是培育孩子發展天賦的金牌教練還是是摧毀孩子夢想的狼狽教練"},{"start":7055.854,"end":7079.316,"text":"所以我想這個是一個很大的問題我們也一直在跟去年就一直在跟運動部在溝通這件事情當時是教育部的體育署就一直在溝通可是他們就告訴我們說因為礙於各自法的規範還要保障這些教練的工作權所以在沒有任何法規授權的機制之下他們只能夠維持用這種方式"},{"start":7080.497,"end":7108.348,"text":"來進行那我想這件事情我跟人本其實已經主張了至少超過一年那希望說是不是監察院也可以針對這樣子的一個處置方式來進行調查或是糾正呢我們會把委員您的質詢待會去給監委請他們來參考這個意見在未來辦理相關意見這個案類似的案件的時候還有對於政府的相關的監督的時候能夠善加"},{"start":7109.068,"end":7134.476,"text":"我想就針對就是說因為其實在衛福部或是教育部他們都有相關的不是任人才的一個資料庫好那但是這個在運動部裡面呢我們現在是一直沒有辦法處理到有關於不是任教練公告的這件事情那這是相對於其他部會是稍微我覺得有點瀆職啦所以是不是可以進行相關的調查跟糾正啦我們一起來推動教育運動部來做這件事情好不好好謝謝"},{"start":7137.077,"end":7156.964,"text":"那再來還有另外一個事件也是說我們剛剛講不適任教練可是我們剛剛雖然有各個系統的去把他建置起來這些不適任人才資料庫但是其實他們還是一直的轉漏洞因為光我們自己不停的處理從教育部去鎖他從運動部去鎖他這些人後來留下了地下經濟"},{"start":7158.625,"end":7171.503,"text":"流向了地下經濟等於是說他自己開了一個工作室沒有登記我們根本查不到這個人可是這個人還是持續的在接觸我們的孩子所以其實我去年就一直在主張要建立兒少工作證的制度參考澳洲的一個規範來做"},{"start":7173.465,"end":7197.974,"text":"因為對於任何一個家長來說我們實在是沒有辦法去每次都要等於是說是在看抽獎抽到的是誰這樣子所以是不是可以在兒少工作證制度尚未完成立法之前呢我們可以針對目前的制度空窗提出一個具體的監督跟改善建議那還有這個針對跨部會的一個機制是否也可以有所掌握呢這部分是可以"},{"start":7198.334,"end":7214.169,"text":"這當然是行政機關的他相關的措施跟處分那我們會把委員的建議帶回去那在 尤其在人權委員會人權委員會這邊已經有處理我請人權委員會的執行秘書就相關人權委員會處理跟您說明"},{"start":7216.892,"end":7234.139,"text":"是謝謝委員好關心這個議題那我們呃其實在去年年底的時候我們有發布一個檢討校園失對聲暴力處理機制這一個專案報告那這個專案報告裡面我們呃最後面的建議裡面也有提到呃就是你剛剛說的有關這個兒少呃就是兒少相關的工作證的這樣一個"},{"start":7235.159,"end":7260.3,"text":"一個制度那我們也是傾向比較同意這樣的一個做法想說明 謝謝好 了解 謝謝好 那再來下一個題目其實是想要講我們的我先講一下這個預算的部分好了啦好不好因為我覺得這個我看到了監察院的預算整個不管在114年稅出預算規模是10.97億啦那"},{"start":7263.102,"end":7290.729,"text":"人事費約佔8億 佔比極高但是原編列的業務費2億4273萬元被立法院審查三檢後高達96%只剩下1092%導致我們的一般行政調查其實根本都沒有辦法做甚至最重要的人權業務特別是接下來還要做CRC的國際審查這是非常的重要我也有聽到一些團體在講我不知道是不是真的說他們去參加監察"},{"start":7292.469,"end":7302.82,"text":"院的一些相關諮詢會議都沒有給出席費我不曉得這是真的還是假的這樣子已經落魄到這樣嗎因為這些都是專家學者我覺得他們的時間意見也都非常的寶貴那這是真的嗎"},{"start":7305.653,"end":7332.524,"text":"報告委員其實在去年我們預算最艱困的時候的確是沒有給出席費但是後續因為有追加預算也謝謝立法院後續有讓我們追加預算那我們後面是有再補回去那但是我們大部分一些案件我們就變成是要用視訊的方式因為沒有辦法支付交通費我們是給最低額的出席費就是兩千元所以是不含交通費那因此很多的會議就變成是要用視訊的方式來辦理"},{"start":7333.524,"end":7362.383,"text":"了解 那我覺得這個是希望所有的立法院都要聽到因為這些都是專家學者而他們的意見也都非常的寶貴而且他們的意見其實是督促了我們整個國家的制度上面的前進而是我們連一個出席費都沒有辦法給我覺得這是相對不尊重的一件事情所以我認為所有的委員在接下來要做115年的審查或是116年的審查都應該要去考量這一件事情不然我們就會是一直叫監察院做事像民眾黨一直叫藍白一直叫監察院做事我覺得你們也是啞巴吃黃蓮"},{"start":7364.024,"end":7387.301,"text":"那接下來還有一個更重要的部分就是在114年的3月18號我看到你們的新聞稿就是說你們積欠了伊甸基金會委外勞務清潔費用六位約用以及部分駐點人員失業造成弱勢家庭的經濟困擾及重傷其工作權益這件事情後續還有繼續聘任嗎報告委員我是請秘書處針對這個業務主管來說明"},{"start":7391.159,"end":7398.681,"text":"報告委員您關心的問題其實在去年3月的時候醫店這一部分我們從原本的15位然後一下減成7位那這7位是單純的身心障礙人員因為這個臨時的狀況我想這些身心障礙家庭可能沒辦法承受"},{"start":7408.784,"end":7428.438,"text":"那這部分少掉的八個人力其實對我們來說是非常的緊迫那這七位呢只能負責我們公共區域的勞務清潔那至於短缺的到目前為止都是監察院一個很大的要必須要去承受的變成我們所有的機工工友工作量非常的非常的大 對"},{"start":7431.799,"end":7449.524,"text":"我們也造成一些弱勢家庭的經濟困擾這件事情到現在還是沒有解決那接下來我還想要請教一下那伊甸的部分我們有積欠他那時候我們從2月總共積欠了到7月整個追加預算通過我們總共積欠了100多萬那也是後續才逐步來償還"},{"start":7451.685,"end":7475.301,"text":"那接下來我還有看到一個是跟人身安全有關係的那我看起來我會覺得這個好像有點影響到你們上班的安全性就是說我們無法依規定進行高低壓電器設備消防設備電器及飲水機還有建物的公共安全的檢查因為這畢竟是一個滿年久的一個建物我有點擔心這會不會影響到你們的工作安全"},{"start":7476.061,"end":7491.098,"text":"再來我也看到就是說沒有預算來修善辦公廳設跟機電設備也嚴重的影響你們的建物使用安全造成無障礙升降平台無法使用這個是真的嗎我是不是也請秘書處主管來跟您回覆"},{"start":7493.22,"end":7509.896,"text":"包委員那您剛所提的這個部分確實都是存在也是真實的那尤其在機電方面不管是升降梯電梯還有高低壓飲水設備其實這是法規所規定的那這部分呢後來在七月追加預算的時候就法定的部分"},{"start":7510.376,"end":7533.111,"text":"其實還有甚至有更多的稅金我們都是用欠款的方式那就是用欠款積欠的方式來度過那這一部分然後所以呢有關安全的部分我們在115年的預算裡面也編列了下去因為消防安全這一部分老舊已經將近40年了消防安全嗎這一部分涉及公共安全是我們比較擔憂的"},{"start":7534.972,"end":7562.54,"text":"好我想剛剛您的回覆上面我們都可以非常清楚聽到就是說你們的建物安全人身安全公共工作安全其實都蠻嚴重危急蠻嚴重的我們必須要來關注那我想因為也希望社會大眾還有我們的立委們可以了解因為在裡面工作的每一個都是我們優秀的公務員也有可能是我們的朋友有可能是我們的兄弟姊妹親人等等的這些人的工作安全其實是非常需要去維護的特別是這也"},{"start":7563.46,"end":7582.694,"text":"違法就是我們有一個職安位嘛其實是有要去守護我們在勞工從事工作的一個工作安全所以我在想我做一個結論就是說在憲法六十三條裡面立法院有議決法律案預算案戒嚴案大赦案宣戰案等等其他重要事項之權利那"},{"start":7583.735,"end":7611.214,"text":"我們立法院有審查刪減凍結的權利但這個權利不該是無限擴充的對於機關的基本運作應該還是要有基本的維持而不是大筆一揮就忽略了這一些跟人身安全有關係的預算所以我希望說在今年的審查的時候大家都可以理性的務實的讓我們的監察院可以繼續的運作不要犧牲我們所有公務員的一個人身安全 謝謝"},{"start":7632.813,"end":7642.677,"text":"好 我們接下來請翁曉琳召委好 謝謝主席我們有請秘書長我們請監察院黃秘書長"},{"start":7649.318,"end":7664.79,"text":"黃秘書長好因為您先接任監察院的秘書長這份工作當然是不容易的不過今天因為是你們等於是您擔任秘書長然後第一次到監察院"},{"start":7665.93,"end":7694.37,"text":"第一次到立法院來做立法計畫的報告那本席在這裡呢我想給監察院一些建議事實上因為本席現在擔任立法委員最近兩年也經過這個是第五個會期了但是我每個會期在看你們監察院的立法計畫坦白說大概就是薄薄的一千字左右而且每個會期的立法計畫都是一樣的幾乎內容是一樣的"},{"start":7696.181,"end":7704.132,"text":"那固然監察院自己主管的法規有限譬如說你們希望能夠檢討的陽光四法"},{"start":7708.17,"end":7733.722,"text":"這個不是屬於監察院的主管這個法律還有就是你們希望能夠這個通過的監察法的部分的條文修正草案那這個部分當然現在是存在立法院這裡喔那麼可是本席認為說你們是不是之後可以在你們的立法計畫裡面也可以稍微報告或者說說明你們監察院每一個年度"},{"start":7734.582,"end":7743.97,"text":"的這個大概你們事實上立法監察委員職權行使的狀況好的好的為什麼我要這麼說呢剛剛其實前面的"},{"start":7745.445,"end":7764.113,"text":"委員們也有提到就是我們看一下就是這一屆的監察委員職權行使的統計因為馬上這一屆的監察委員他們在7月31號任期屆滿所以我們如果回顧他們這5年多來的行使"},{"start":7765.113,"end":7782.029,"text":"監察權也就是他們辦案的一些狀況那這個部分我認為其實蠻重要的是應該要讓我們的民眾知道我們現在監察委員的他的整個工作他的這個任務的執行的狀況那麼這個部分因為你們沒有寫在"},{"start":7784.124,"end":7804.378,"text":"你們的立法計畫裡面所以本席也有特別去看剛剛前面副秘書長也有說了就是還有秘書長這裡有講你們一直到今年的二月大概收受人民的書狀是將近八萬五千件左右那實際上派查的案件只有1683件"},{"start":7807.748,"end":7835.498,"text":"事實上派查率不到2%不到2%也就是說這5年多來將近6年的時間你們現在預估可能到7月底這一屆監察委員任期屆滿可能會突破9萬件或是10萬件可是看看你們的整個案件的派查率是非常的低等於是你們這6年多來可能最多就是處理大概"},{"start":7836.878,"end":7856.248,"text":"1700件左右的案子那麼其他的案子不是不處理或者是說不受理或者是可能就是用其他的方式去做那我想針對這樣子一個情況老百姓是失望的因為大家這個陳情的案件很多可是卻看到監察院沒有積極的處理"},{"start":7858.513,"end":7883.112,"text":"就這個部分來說是不是秘書長可以回應跟文回報那關於數字的部分我是不是請我們的副秘書長因為他長期在監察院可以比較這幾屆的狀況跟你先說明那後續的我在以政策上面怎麼樣的問題我想剛剛其實王副秘書長其實也有說了就是你們認為說跟其他國家相比起來"},{"start":7883.752,"end":7908.973,"text":"不算是太差這樣子的一個辦案的效率不算太糟可是呢本期要談的是說我們現在監察委員有29位扣除院長跟副院長有27位監察委員辦案如果以你們這樣子的一個成績來看的話平均大概每個人一年只是辦10個案件而且呢我們也看到就是說這個事實上"},{"start":7910.441,"end":7917.378,"text":"大家期待的大的大案件你們其實辦的很少或是可能很簡單的就處理掉"},{"start":7919.727,"end":7948.005,"text":"那麼但是對於基層公務員的這個案件你們倒是處理的速度很快而且也相對來說也較多所以這也是難怪為什麼大家會質疑有關於監察院到底是不是真的能夠發揮誠心勵志的這樣的一個功能那麼本席是希望在下一屆的監察委員如果能夠順利任職的話希望能夠提醒"},{"start":7948.785,"end":7969.821,"text":"這個新任的監察委員們還是要重視人民的陳情案件因為我們就是說從歷史上看過來的話發現就是現在的這個辦案的這個派查率等等其實不是一個很好的一個績效的表現那麼我們希望說假設這個下一屆的監察委員能夠順利"},{"start":7971.96,"end":7995.026,"text":"到職的話順利來任職的話這個部分希望能夠強化可以辦理更多人民關係或眾所矚目的案子是不是容我把這個數字的部分來簡單的說明一下就是說整體來看我們第六屆的監委的相關的績效的表現跟第五屆並沒有什麼差距"},{"start":7997.447,"end":8012.681,"text":"但是事實上我們有幾個特色的地方就是說我們有一個委託調查的案件就是過去委託調查案件就是說這些就變成不是我們由我們監察院直接查我們要求他的主管機關上級等等直接調查"},{"start":8013.602,"end":8026.945,"text":"但是這個調查的部分真正被我們發現有問題最後平反了也將近有389件的相關案件而且我們今年還有一個我還有其他的問題要問因為我覺得這是一個大問題我也希望監察院可能之後"},{"start":8033.447,"end":8050.1,"text":"或是在之後有機會的話你們也可以把你們相關處理的情況然後再做個更詳細的報告是 謝謝委員好 那接下來本期要問的一個問題就是說一般的陳情案件從收受派案到立案調查或是不受理那監察院的標準作業時間大概是多少"},{"start":8052.441,"end":8076.594,"text":"我請副民署長跟您回應跟委員說明原則上我們收受人民署長行政院的話是20天我們是10天我們是有規定的是10天那10天之內我們在第一時間收到以後就會讓民眾知道說監察院收到了我們會用一個前端的編排所以你們10天之後就會開始分案開查"},{"start":8079.736,"end":8102.554,"text":"不一定會 報告委員 其實是 它是有一定的延期的一個過程那因為我們有個監察業務處 那裡面有好 那不管辦的情況如何 你們都會含附陳情人嗎是的那什麼時候會含附陳情人除非是說他 比如他是匿名 匿職 或者是他有一些對 所以大概會有什麼時間呢"},{"start":8103.675,"end":8131.547,"text":"原則上我們如果辦了有結果就會函付給陳情人可是呢其實跟委員附帶說明就是去年因為預算真的是被砍得非常的嚴重所以連油資就是季性也就是說你們其實現在就函付陳情人的這個速度沒有以前快就是了是不是基本上那現在本席要問的就是說我在去年12月23號的時候和幾位立法委員們我們一起針對卓榮泰"},{"start":8133.628,"end":8155.17,"text":"違法失職他不附屬不執行不編列預算的這個事情向監察院遞狀申請彈劾案的陳情案因為這個案子是涉及到憲法層次的問題他不執行預算不附屬這應該算是很嚴重的很明顯違反憲政爭議的重大事要請問現在"},{"start":8157.133,"end":8180.015,"text":"立法院 現在監察院針對這個案子你們的公文流程到哪裡了我們現在的流程到我們已經把這案子移給司法及預證委員會他們正在嚴處之中所以已經有立案了現在是提研究報告等於是對於整個這個憲政體制做一個相關的了解現在只是在研究階段"},{"start":8182.131,"end":8206.918,"text":"在我原會研究的階段這也是處理的一個層次這也是整個處理的一個層次所以到目前為止也還沒有請卓榮泰那裡行政院針對行政院院長的違法失職他有沒有提出相關的說明呢我請司法域政委員會主任秘書來跟您說明"},{"start":8208.953,"end":8235.694,"text":"我們這一次委員會要求在一月份的時候要求我們委會的幕僚針對我們這個委員的案子要針對他程序跟實體裡面加以研究到底有沒有合乎權力分離那目前我們會做一個詳細的研判所以我就講這個也難怪大家會對於監察委員那麼不信任認為他是獨立依法行使職權嗎你們看看你們自己的這個派案原則"},{"start":8237.481,"end":8264.802,"text":"你們監察院的判案原則第三條裡面講得很清楚對不對有沒有濫用職權 恣意妄為 逐任侵犯憲法保障基本人權或是他的這個行為有沒有引起社會爭議這是你們本身就要趕快要去做的對不對 大家都一直在看就說監察院對於這種眾所矚目的案子有沒有積極的處理"},{"start":8266.604,"end":8289.503,"text":"我希望就是 當然在今天見場委員 我看起來他們反正就是七月底就任期屆滿 也不會積極處理了啦而且案子會拖到下一屆 可能就不了了之那麼 但是我要說就是全民都在看 全民都在看那接下來我還有其他的問題 就是今天其實其他的委員們也有提到"},{"start":8292.689,"end":8320.106,"text":"賴清德總統他在3月10號的時候他其實已經有公布了就是要對外要徵選監察委員就是監察委員的候選人可是其實民進黨政府向來主張廢除監察院那麼賴清德他之前在當台南市市長的時候他也是認為說根本不應該要有監察院主張廢掉監察院還說他是個憲政怪獸"},{"start":8321.884,"end":8345.836,"text":"那麼賴清德總統他現在因為已經有了這個不提名大法官的這樣的一個潛力所以接下來他有沒有可能也消極的不提名監察委員這我沒辦法代替這個總統回答這不是監察院能夠回答的問題如果說是賴清德又像是陳雪扁一樣"},{"start":8347.244,"end":8360.197,"text":"他根本就不提名因為我相信或許民進黨政府現在不是那麼容易找到適合的監察委員的候選人那麼針對這個部分現在監察院內部有沒有一些準備"},{"start":8361.58,"end":8379.587,"text":"我剛才講過整個監察院絕對不會對於沒有監委這件事情做任何的準備我們的目標還是依法希望未來監委能夠在下一屆第七屆能夠在八月一號就職我還是希望賴慶德總統可以"},{"start":8381.368,"end":8402.041,"text":"一線提名監察委員的候選人但是就像我講的我不確定他到底會不會提名那麼如果說他不提名的話我也希望監察院要立場要立場不要像司法院司法院憲法法庭癱瘓至今司法院院長有去向賴清德總統表態嗎說因為賴清德總統的消極不提名已經癱瘓了憲法法庭"},{"start":8410.393,"end":8434.262,"text":"所以本期希望監察院必須要有立場如果說在這一屆監察委員任期屆滿之前都還沒有作為的話應該要積極而且要積極而且要公開的向賴清德總統喊話必須要提名監察委員的候選人好 那麼最後一個議題就是"},{"start":8437.938,"end":8447.144,"text":"剛剛前面幾個委員也都有在談到有關於這個之前有好幾位監察委員以及監察院的秘書長"},{"start":8448.843,"end":8476.274,"text":"私用公務車的這個案子那麼我們的台北地檢署把這些案子這些所謂的這個監委的不當使用公務車的案子認為說這是因為監委自費油資沒有損壞公務難以認定犯罪所以就用行政牽結了但是這個案子的確是引起社會的爭議而且看到這樣子的一個牽結的結果大家是極為憤怒不滿的那麼"},{"start":8478.942,"end":8492.118,"text":"你們監察院自己內部的自律委員會針對這幾個監察委員後來大概也做了一些處理你們處理的結果就是"},{"start":8494.773,"end":8517.352,"text":"口頭或書面道歉 或者是針對蘇力窮委員不懲處 王榮章委員就促其注意林玉榮委員接受親友到機場 只要口頭或書面在院會道歉就好你們這樣的處理方式 我相信已經社會大眾看不下去"},{"start":8519.555,"end":8546.807,"text":"請教現在林育榮委員他有提口頭或書面道歉嗎有的他在院會裡面直接提出口頭道歉那有公開這份道歉函嗎他是向院會提出道歉不是向我們社會大眾提出道歉他在院會裡面有提出道歉所以有公開院會有記錄院會有記錄有錄案了這種事情其實這幾個委員都應該要向社會大眾道歉"},{"start":8548.752,"end":8559.831,"text":"你們看看你們自己的監察院監察委員使用車輛的規定有特別講到委員使用車輛因為要符合公務需求安全考量或者是符合社會相當性的活動"},{"start":8562.464,"end":8589.935,"text":"這幾位監察委員包含秘書長送寵物去美容然後接送親友到機場然後去看病這有符合所謂的社會相當性嗎所以我們在整個的機率委員會的採取之中就是以他們這個有礙到這個社會的形象所以給予相關影響監察的形象所以要求他們在院會道歉這樣子"},{"start":8590.675,"end":8607.122,"text":"所以這幾位委員當然你們現在紀律委員會自己有做了處理雖然說本席一直認為說你們紀律委員會的這樣的一個自律規範它是不夠的應該要比照立法委員的行為法然後本席之前也有提出監察委員的行為法"},{"start":8608.422,"end":8622.29,"text":"增加更多的紀律懲處的措施好那現在就說你幾個監察委員看起來你們紀律委員會已經處理了雖然說所做的處分大家不盡滿意那接下來本席要問的就是說是針對李俊逸呢李俊逸秘書長因為他已經辭職了所以因為他已經辭職了所以他的行為你們就可以不追究嗎"},{"start":8634.711,"end":8656.091,"text":"依照你們的立案派查原則的第三點李俊毅的言行有沒有損害到監察院的形象有沒有損害到公務員的形象自律規範是規範委員我現在是講說你們自己監察院的立案派查原則裡面針對哪些案子要不要啟動調查"},{"start":8660.753,"end":8678.32,"text":"李俊毅的作為難道不構成你們裡面講的第三點裡面的第六款嚴刑或行政措施有沒有引起社會嚴重的爭議對立或民怨這個部分你們針對李俊毅"},{"start":8681.986,"end":8690.574,"text":"這個委員長因為是去年的狀況我請副秘書長來跟您回應一下所以針對李俊逸的問題你們都沒有再處理嗎他離職了這筆賬就一筆勾銷了嗎"},{"start":8694.33,"end":8719.219,"text":"跟委員說明這個相關的三位監委的那部分是在114年6月6號有兩次的陳情檢舉案那所以呢我們就依照陳情檢舉案然後進入一般的我們的法定程序然後經過檢查業務處然後到移到紀律委員會紀律委員會派了七位的紀律委員會來調查我現在不是在講那三位監察我現在是講李俊逸的案子所以沒有人去檢舉李俊逸嗎"},{"start":8720.419,"end":8739.167,"text":"是 我們沒有收到任何的證據所以沒有檢舉你們就也不會依法調查你們的職權都是要等待被動的檢舉嗎李俊一的案子這麼嚴重他還利用公務車送他的狗去做寵物美容就是因為他已經離職了所以你們就可以不問不問你們連調查都沒有調查你們監察院可以做到這樣的一個程度嗎"},{"start":8747.745,"end":8766.545,"text":"這不應該是符合你們自己主動立案派查的情形所以難怪大家為什麼會把監察院看扁然後認為說你們只是打蒼蠅不打老虎李俊穎拍拍屁股就走了他的案子就輕鬆 就是這個就"},{"start":8769.655,"end":8791.641,"text":"就放下了然後也不再去追究他的違法失職的責任李軍秘書長的事情其實檢察官也都有調查了其實他也是在牽結的司法權司法權監察權是監察權司法權行政牽結不代表監察權可以不去做調查我也是法律學者我對監察法是清楚的啊"},{"start":8798.041,"end":8824.184,"text":"對不對你們今天對於李俊應的案子都可以不去調查然後對於一些小工友可能只是有一部分的這個很輕微的違法疏失可能立刻就調查這在一般人一般社會大眾眼裡是看不下去這樣的情況的就像我們剛剛講如果說連那三位監察委員你們還經過自己內部的紀律委員會"},{"start":8825.936,"end":8848.244,"text":"做了這樣的懲處雖然說只是觸及注意不懲處或者是口頭道歉這麼輕的這樣的一個處分但是至少還有處分吧但李俊逸的狀況連發動都沒有發動調查然後也沒有針對這案子去做積極處分我真的認為說"},{"start":8851.266,"end":8868.76,"text":"監察院這樣的一個行為是沒有辦法的李俊彬署長在去年也負起責任他負起什麼責任請告訴我他已經辭職了所以只要是我們現在政務官他有任何違法失職的情況他只要拍拍屁股辭職之後事後所有的司法責任公務責任都可以不用追究喔"},{"start":8874.332,"end":8879.819,"text":"民俗長 您跟我都是法律學者 您應該知道我在說什麼"},{"start":8881.233,"end":8910.068,"text":"政務官不是說他辭職之後就不再負任何的責任的您今天這樣的談話讓我覺得實在不能接受我想所有社會大眾都不能接受我覺得您不用再幫李俊逸去辯護您也不用為前屆的監察委員做任何的辯解所以這也是讓大家會認為說這一屆的監察委員有太多失職 太多護航的情況"},{"start":8912.639,"end":8941.54,"text":"只是大家沒有這個我想之後有機會把它整理出來到底是護航了哪些大官眼前就是護航庇護這個李俊毅好那以上了我講說這個部分你們如果說是要等待要有檢舉澄清函才會辦理的話那本席今天回去之後我立刻就會提一個檢舉澄清函請監察院"},{"start":8942.901,"end":8952.168,"text":"一定要去處理李俊逸的案子好 謝謝歐委員 謝謝監察院好 謝謝 有請林倩倩委員"},{"start":8975.441,"end":8995.352,"text":"好 謝謝我們主席翁昭瑋本席今天要針對這個人權的一個評估還有調查公正性最後再針對這個公務倫理的部分來做一些詢答所以我先請我們監察院的黃秘書長跟我們人權委員會的應該今天出席的周植密"},{"start":8997.213,"end":9008.906,"text":"請黃秘書長跟周執銘本期今天要跟你們請教一下這個外籍家庭邦庸新制的一個人權影響評估的這個問題"},{"start":9011.629,"end":9036.897,"text":"在這個禮拜一 也就是4月13號這個時候行政院已經決定來針對這個外籍幫傭新制的一個上路但是包含了34個民間團體還有監察院的人權委員會本身都也公開的提出一些疑慮那麼也針對這個我們還未完成完整的一個性別跟人權影響評估之前就已經推動這次序上是有一點點爭議的"},{"start":9038.357,"end":9060.39,"text":"所以本席也認為制度運作要符合人權保障的一個基本要求是很重要的但對於性別族群的這個影響評估也不能說事後才補上所以更大規模的現在我們要引進的這個移工尤其是現在最近大家這個議題非常討論的非常多的這個有關印度移工但是整體的這個移工的這個部分"},{"start":9061.05,"end":9077.117,"text":"是勞動部的一個政策方向那本席在先前也有跟勞動部這邊針對他的移工還有援助民族勞工的一個勞權影響有沒有一些完整的評估也就是移工然後還有援助民族的這個勞工"},{"start":9078.658,"end":9096.652,"text":"那這樣一個結構性的改變有沒有一些衝擊本席這邊有要求做一些評估但是這個答案目前也是很模糊所以本席想要在人權 跟這個人權會這邊有做一些討論你們理解這個意思嗎就是說你們現在有移工 可是這個移工對整個社會的結構還有勞工的這個整體的這個系統會產生一些衝擊"},{"start":9104.277,"end":9121.669,"text":"這個本席在其他委員會也問過了那這個部分也提醒你們做一些注意啦所以本席認為這個新制會影響到三個層面第一個是本國的這個基層女性勞動者的一個工作權那第二個部分是外籍家事移工長期處於勞基法之外的一個勞動條件"},{"start":9122.91,"end":9143.566,"text":"那麼第三個部分是兒童照顧的品質跟家庭責任的分配那這個是本席剛才講的這個背景會影響的一些問題那這些都是很敏感而且跟人權議題交織在一起的所以目前的情況是行政院已經決定上路了但是完整的人權跟性別的影響評估報告卻要後續的性評會才會提出來"},{"start":9147.509,"end":9169.586,"text":"那這樣時序是不是有點政策先行然後評估在後所以本席要請教的尤其是人權會那人權會對於這樣政策的推動程序是不是認為符合人權治理的一個基本原則呢那第二個部分是在面對行政權已經決定上路了那人權會未來要怎麼跟行政院來進行有建設性的一個制度對話"},{"start":9170.507,"end":9199.472,"text":"那麼是不是會建立一些固定的政策人權審查的機制而不是被動的做一些回應那第三個部分是針對外界目前關注的這個移工人權跟對我國勞工的影響剛才本席也舉例了例如長工時或者是缺乏勞基法的一個保障那麼工作的內容可能也會擴張到這個照顧跟育兒或排擠我國勞工剛才本席這邊已經談到了那外籍移工"},{"start":9200.433,"end":9212.504,"text":"對原住民族勞工的一個衝擊影響那聯全會是不是會提出一些具體的監督指標或追蹤的機制來確保政策上路之後不會擴大既有的問題"},{"start":9214.919,"end":9238.208,"text":"回應委員的質詢剛才您提到的這幾個問題包括人權治理、建立機制跟移工的人權對本勞尤其是原住民勞工的影響我們國家人權委員會都做了很多的對外的聲明我是不是請我國家人權委員會執行秘書詳細的跟你說執秘這邊是不是可以精準的然後簡單做一個回應"},{"start":9238.868,"end":9260.813,"text":"好 謝謝委員關切這個議題這個議題也是我們非常關切的幾個項目那先就剛剛您提到的就是有關4月13日要上路的這個外籍幫傭的這個新制那我們非常贊成委員所提到的因為我們的意見書裡面也是提到說這個新制第一個就是會衝擊到基層女性包括保姆還有教保人員她們的一個工作權益"},{"start":9261.653,"end":9281.068,"text":"那第二就是說它其實會涉及到家庭類型的移工因為過去我們已經有在相關的專案調查報告裡面提到說目前的家事移工他因為沒有適用到勞基法所以他的一些保障上面其實是有問題而且監督上是有困難的那這個都是在我們的家事移工這個專案調查報告裡面都已經有提到"},{"start":9281.528,"end":9303.755,"text":"那第三個就是說 針對沒有辦法落實而是要有權益的這個保障這部分我們也非常關切所以其實我們在聲明裡面一開始我們就提到說在這個新制推行之前其實是應該要先做人權還有性別的影響評估所以它現在已經產生這樣子 已經政策先行了所以後續你們要怎麼去處理跟因應呢"},{"start":9305.216,"end":9320.103,"text":"謝謝 對 那後續我們大概會朝兩個方向那第一個就是說就我們自己的部分我們會持續的監督那當然有必要的時候我們會一直跟行政機關去做一些了解那相關的內容我們也會放在接下來的公約審查裡面的一些獨立評估意見裡面"},{"start":9321.264,"end":9332.035,"text":"那第二個就是說其實照國際上面就是針對因為本來人權會他的職責角色他擁有的權利就是建議權不像監察院是有一個比較強制的這個背後的這個彈劾糾正這些權利那我們主要有的是糾正權"},{"start":9337.481,"end":9362.598,"text":"但是大部分的國家的國家人權機構他們會跟國會合作那這也是所謂的貝爾格勒原則裡面的一個核心所以我們其實也很盼望日後跟國會建立一些平台跟交流的管道那針對這一類的政策上的議題可以互相有一些合作然後跟一些相關後續的一些推進的一些力量本席對這個部分非常的關注因為現在已經看起來政策先行了"},{"start":9362.978,"end":9385.592,"text":"然後如果你們只有建議權那我們又如何跟監察院的這個糾正權能夠做一些比較緊密的連結那當然如果跟立法院之間我們當然一定會是一直來追後續在這個權益的保障上在目前的這樣一個限制下後續的一個執行方向那這可能要我們各方都非常密切而且相對主動的像剛才翁委員這邊講就是說監察院你可能在"},{"start":9388.734,"end":9408.53,"text":"針對某一些權益的這個部分那如何主動的因為你們是具有相關的這個糾察權嘛那如何主動的來做那這樣一個調查報告已經提供給我們一些相關的這個資訊所以我想後續你們怎麼樣你剛才講的兩點嘛那監督的這個部分如何再更具體然後再更積極"},{"start":9409.651,"end":9431.886,"text":"那這個有關於你建議跟糾察還有跟立法院這邊的一個合作可以怎麼樣具體的來做來補足目前政策已經先行了結果評估還沒有很具體的狀況針對委員提到說這個是不是監察院這邊可不可以有糾正等這些那跟您報告國家人權會的委員他也升監察委員"},{"start":9434.187,"end":9462.384,"text":"所以很多他們在這個過程他們會獨立的去判斷如果說要進入到監察院的整個的調查啦整個程序他們會進入對 因為目前就已經是政策先行了所以大家其實非常關注目前還沒有處理本來應該先評估可是沒有處理的這個部分那在後續我們不希望執行上碰到問題然後又很難去處理或者是已經後續沒有辦法在處理的一個狀況上"},{"start":9463.385,"end":9490.171,"text":"然後我們又再做一些只是一直補正然後就會影響到人民的一個信任所以如果正好是這樣一個角色那可能相關的這個委員就要負起一個比較更積極的一個責任但是很重要一點本席這邊還是要再提醒那有關於外籍移工衝擊到原住民族勞動的這個部分我覺得監察院還有人權委員會要把它當成是一件主要的事情來做處理"},{"start":9491.511,"end":9517.723,"text":"所以這個結構性的改變勢必會有衝擊那你可能為了接下來本席要談的是另外一個議題那這個就會變成跟你可能針對比如說我們剛才講外籍移工那可能有產業的需求可是對於本土原本在我們的勞動市場裡面的一個衝擊我覺得在過去的一個這幾年的一個狀況上我們有看到其實有點準備不足就針對某一個面向的一個立場來做"},{"start":9519.584,"end":9547.222,"text":"規劃跟處理結果後來其實影響到本土的或者是本地的這個勞動權其實影響到很大本期接下來的就是要講不過我再先補充一下啦也就是說人權會的角色那我們最好不要都是只做事後的一個檢討而是應該在制度上確保重大政策在形成的過程當中人權會的角就已經納入人權的視角所以都不要都是這個背後亡羊補牢那麼"},{"start":9548.203,"end":9562.279,"text":"本席這邊還是要對行政權這邊做一些這個批判行政權如果都可以在憑供沒有完全完成的一個情況下就進行那人權會又缺乏有效的介入機制那麼人權的保障就會變成"},{"start":9563.14,"end":9589.981,"text":"留於形式這點本席要請監察院更積極的一點來面對跟處理好那本席剛才講到的其實這個外籍移工對勞動市場的這個不是太全面的一個評估其實基本上可能都在產業面本席接下來要談的一個議題就是光電政策調查的公正性跟監察角色偏移的問題好那這個跟本席剛才講的我們或許有對外籍移工的需求但是呢對本"},{"start":9591.162,"end":9620.162,"text":"這個本土的衝擊其實沒有每一個面向都考慮到這個有關這個你們監察院目前發布的一個光電調查報告這個報告的起點是外商業者來反映台灣投資環境的惡化但報告的內容引用的很多都是業界的意見甚至引入了你們最後還建議說要鬆綁農地然後要調整漁電共生的制度然後要喊請行政院還要監督各部會的一個檢討"},{"start":9621.042,"end":9648.235,"text":"但是報告一出來社會其實質疑這份報告聽的這個聲音其實太單方面了本席請教那麼監察院在這次的調查過程當中是否同樣的納入相當程度的數量的農民養殖戶地方居民跟環保團體的一個實際經驗還是主要是因為業者陳情那就變成你們這個資料來源或者是相關的資訊來源的"},{"start":9649.395,"end":9665.78,"text":"主要的一個這個連結那目前從外部的一個觀察那這個光電報告將發展的困境都歸咎在行政效率不足那麼審查有點過於嚴格但是政策本身是不是有一些問題"},{"start":9667.201,"end":9681.662,"text":"實際的狀況上是地方的衝突不斷那麼原因也不是只有審查慢而是根本的有幾個問題本席這邊提出來也就是第一個農地破碎化還有農業環境惡化第二個部分是社區的參與不足"},{"start":9682.463,"end":9709.858,"text":"再來還有資訊不對等那還有開發過程當中利益分配失衡跟地方的不信任那麼光電開發過度以取得土地為優先忽略了環境跟社會成本那這是本席認為這樣子的狀況一直反覆發生的根本問題所以請教一下你是不是認同光電爭議的核心不只是行政程序而是國土利用跟產業發展之間有結構性的衝突"},{"start":9712.259,"end":9741.078,"text":"那麼未來你們可不可以再提出相關的報告就這個部分更深入的分析那第二個部分是對於農地農用這一個基本原則那報告當中引用了業界的數據主張的影響其實是有一些有限啦但是學界有指出相關的數據其實有一些爭議也就是你數據的引用其實導致了一些偏頗所以甚至有低估農地流失的情形你們有沒有進一步的查證最後更關鍵的是"},{"start":9742.799,"end":9771.091,"text":"監察院在本案當中你們到底是在協助政策加速與背書還是在監督政策是否偏離了公眾利益那這點是很重要所以本席剛才會跟你們提醒當產業有需求但是整體的評估或許沒有到那麼全面的時候它的某一些衝擊如果沒有調查報告來顯示那其實那個隱性的衝擊跟付出的社會成本我們時常是看不到的"},{"start":9771.611,"end":9784.447,"text":"所以是不是可以請您就這個部分做一些回應委員是這樣您提的範圍非常廣而且我們很多都有這個所謂的新聞稿或基本上就是一個全面性的問題我們會後用書面跟你回覆"},{"start":9787.731,"end":9802.901,"text":"對不對所以本席其實從剛才到現在連貫就是說一個系統性結構性的這個變動的時候那那個影響其實相對沒有那麼的全面那沒有那麼全面其實就會有一些群體"},{"start":9803.961,"end":9817.657,"text":"在這個過程當中被失衡了 利益被失衡了也是喪失了某一些權益所以從本席講到的外籍移工對原住民勞動的一個影響那政策先行 那對於人權保障的這個議題"},{"start":9818.718,"end":9836.378,"text":"還有此次對光電業者他雖然有人提出來可是整體的評估沒有顧及到各個面向還有不同的群體這會讓人導致那監察院你是到底為了公眾利益那還是導致到最後集體偏移到去處理"},{"start":9838.019,"end":9864.336,"text":"這個產業需求的這個問題所以這個部分是不是您是要會後再補貼問嗎會後把剛才所有的問題一次的跟您回應這樣子用順便相似的回答所以最後這個部分做一個整理就是你們的職責不應該只是為單一產業在排除投資障礙而是要釐清制度的問題那麼糾正政策是否偏差所以這個部分不要在這個調查過程當中就因為這個"},{"start":9866.777,"end":9888.944,"text":"訴求的人而導致了集體偏移這是本席要特別提醒的那最後一個問題當然本席還是呼應許多委員關心的也就是監察院公務車涉及的公務倫理的這個問題所以剛才本席也聽到您對前面的委員這邊的一些回應那麼這個公務車私用到後來牽結的這個部分我想社會"},{"start":9889.804,"end":9910.874,"text":"就比較難接受這樣一個結果那這個牽結的部分也不具圖利或背信主觀犯意為由來做了一個牽結那本席當然尊重法律的一個判斷但是希望不是又一次司法的雙標我想這是剛剛很多委員提出來的一個重點也就是一般民眾可能在這個觸及一些這個"},{"start":9912.395,"end":9928.988,"text":"可能對法律上不是很了解或者是人與人之間相處的這個問題的這一些過失的同時其實可能都被重罰但是真正掌握權力應該要自律的人反倒就因此"},{"start":9930.109,"end":9947.109,"text":"就被討之夭夭我想這個是大家關注的一個議題所以本席在這邊強調行政的牽結不等於行為這個符合行政倫理這是本席談的重點那更不符合監察院應有的用車標準那麼"},{"start":9948.206,"end":9963.628,"text":"秘書長 不好意思 監察院作為國家最高的一個監察機關那麼對外要求各機關要依法行政 延伸自愛那你們是不是有更高的一個標準的要求那如果針對公務生使用的不是那麼恰當"},{"start":9964.449,"end":9977.278,"text":"那很多往往面臨刑責行政懲處或者是失去職務但是呢 此次的這樣一個監委涉及這個寵物送寵物美容但是卻以刑事牽結的這個部分然後院內剛才我聽起來好像"},{"start":9982.281,"end":10010.167,"text":"還要後續要有人再去做一些訴求你們才會再有這樣一個調查那本席請教檢察院是不是認為本案相關的這個用車行為有符合檢察院對公務倫理的一個標準那如果不符合你們對於目前紀律處置的一個回應是如何檢察官的簽結我們都是尊重但是在我們內部這次紀律委員會所做的所謂的這個他要求道歉這個"},{"start":10011.047,"end":10036.226,"text":"因為他要求道歉以外依照紀律規則下一個層次就是彈劾了那這已經是最高了那彈劾呢依照我們過去監察院處理公務車類似公務車全國公務人公務車有被彈劾的案件一般來講都是他有刑事訴追也就是他有刑事上比如說這個背信等等這些或是貪賭的狀況才會進入到彈劾那一般來講"},{"start":10039.608,"end":10059.462,"text":"如果只是沒有進入到刑事訴追的部分我們並不會進入到彈劾所以我們對於委員他的這個部分我們是全國一致的所有的公務人員有刑事訴追我們才會彈劾沒有的話我們就下一個層次那我們的紀律委員會的規範呢下一個層次就是要求道歉這樣子"},{"start":10060.894,"end":10084.726,"text":"所以針對這個事情你們未來有沒有強一些比較強化查核機制的一個我們已經把整個的公務車使用的規定全面的修正那這個修正其實就是比照大院所有公務車的管理相關的規範一模一樣以這樣的方式來進入未來的公務車的管理的改進這樣子"},{"start":10085.906,"end":10101.122,"text":"所以這件事情很重要就不是只有這個有關於這個法律的一個處理啦而是監察院本身的一個自我要求還有內部紀律的一個標準上那不要有雙標標準是全國一致的所有的公務員也是這樣的標準"},{"start":10102.943,"end":10127.8,"text":"彈劾的部分 只要進入到彈劾的話一定是背後有刑事訴追了 譬如說他有這個是你說彈劾的層次 但是最重要就是說整個監察院讓人民在信心上因為這些事情而有了一些動搖所以應該你們是很重要的一個維護公益的一個單位但是呢包括本席剛才所講的那對於某一些這個"},{"start":10129.281,"end":10157.012,"text":"案件的一個單方面資料來源的偏頗跟集體偏移還有針對自己內部的一個紀律的要求我想我們掌握了權力的人應該有更高的一個道德準則好謝謝林委員的指教希望監察院能夠在這個部分就多加改善然後應該有一些具體時程所以我會把委員的建議帶回去謝謝好謝謝好謝謝林委員那我們就現在先休息五分鐘"},{"start":10464.492,"end":10480.059,"text":"好謝謝我們現在繼續開會啊那麼我們有請徐宇貞委員發言不好意思抱歉抱歉抱歉先等一下我要先暢明一下中嘉賓委員中嘉賓委員不在那現在有請徐宇貞委員發言"},{"start":10490.924,"end":10493.235,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請監察院黃秘書長好 有請黃秘書長"},{"start":10499.635,"end":10526.708,"text":"民主黨您好我想其實監察院對於一般民眾來說就當作是憲法的一個守護者所以對於監察院也有很高的一個期待那身為當然國家最高的監察機關其實在過往有很多讓我們覺得非常敬畏的事情包括說1957年的時候監察院敢於挑戰威權的體制彈劾當時的行政院長余鴻鈞"},{"start":10527.908,"end":10543.914,"text":"那在2000年巴掌西事件的時候呢監察院員火速調查彈劾當時的行政院秘書長李毅陽而且追究內政部跟消防署高層職責那在2015年的時候面對當時的台南市長賴清德"},{"start":10545.374,"end":10561.186,"text":"以政治理由拒禁議會 手開地方這個自治史上的惡例的時候監察院也不為政治的壓力依法彈劾那所以在這個部分呢事實上是符合人民的一個期待覺得這也就是監察院該做的事情"},{"start":10561.966,"end":10582.993,"text":"那剛剛呢我想也有委員提到啊就是針對我們可以看一下就是監察院的這個國家人權委員會在4月9號的時候有公開呼籲政府要暫緩放寬外籍幫庸制度認為會衝擊到勞動權益跟性別平等結果勞動部連甩都不甩照樣推動喔"},{"start":10583.493,"end":10602.221,"text":"那我想剛剛呢我想人權委員會的秘書長好像也有回答說其實他們沒有調查跟糾正的權利他們只能建議那依照這個部分的話那請問一下那監察院為什麼不來做這件事情呢"},{"start":10608.888,"end":10636.587,"text":"我們監察院的職責尤其是監察委員對於公務員的彈劾糾舉都是因為他有違法或是失職那這個部分還在政策的層面政策的層面的話就不屬於違法或失職的範疇所以目前來講我們的還沒有進入到相關的這種所謂的糾舉的一個程序監察的一個程序是事實但是"},{"start":10637.327,"end":10651.058,"text":"但是這個部分所有的人權委員他本身也身兼監察委員倘若委員也有發現有任何違法或失職之處委員當然也可以發動會主動調查嗎"},{"start":10654.741,"end":10680.252,"text":"這我沒辦法就個案來跟您回應因為這畢竟是每個委員他的調查的一個職權既然人權委員會這邊會提出這樣子的一個建議那一定就是認為這個應該萬用行子應該不要這麼貿然的就上路當然道中部會在4月13日還是一樣照樣實施嘛那針對這個部分我是覺得與其尋求就立法院這邊的一個合作我覺得監察院應該要負起責任來"},{"start":10682.133,"end":10705.764,"text":"就針對如果有這樣子的違法失職的相關的事件的話監察院應該就要主動的來提起調查其實我一開始的時候就有跟大會報告是說真的監察院跟立法院本來就是合作的就是您的質詢權在最後當然進入到我們這邊也會都收到收錄到相關然後會進入到所謂的調查權的這個部分是"},{"start":10706.764,"end":10726.881,"text":"那針對這個部分當然這個案子剛剛已經提了那另外再一個案子就是說針對經貿辦的這個副總談判代表顏慧欣不幸離職那因為傳出背後都有涉及到這個長期的職場霸凌那已經也有人到監察院去告發了那請問這個監察委員開始調查了嗎在海巡調查處了解這個"},{"start":10733.193,"end":10741.296,"text":"這個案子已經有委員在韓巡調查之中了解調查之中那目前的進度呢我們請我們業務處的處長來說明目前這個案子"},{"start":10748.223,"end":10767.154,"text":"報告委員目前這個案子我們現在是函行政院但是目前行政院的複函還沒有回來所以我們會回來之後你們函行政院多久了大概目前為止大概一個月左右多久不到一個月那請問行政院一般都會多久函複呢"},{"start":10768.106,"end":10796.971,"text":"原則上含附的期限在法規上面是兩個月所以這個案子總共要拖三個月才有可能啟動調查嗎因為我看有的案子其實非常快速因為你們監委就會主動的分案調查然後也非常快速的在執行那這個案子其實國人都非常關心因為對於這麼優秀的一個副總談判的一個代表居然是遭到巴林而離世"},{"start":10797.771,"end":10821.116,"text":"那當然這個部分的話大家都會非常的關心這樣的一個進度那如果照這樣含複來含複去的話這可能一拖又是半年以上了委員在行政機關跟監察院之間它這個含複來含複去的過程有它的有時候也有它的必要性譬如說霸凌案的調查現在我看到行政院也有在啟動所以它的這整個的調查它那邊也要完備啊"},{"start":10822.216,"end":10839.421,"text":"當然我覺得調查一定要有必要性但是我覺得那個效率啦還有速度不要只是按照法規因為兩個月所以我就是兩個月我覺得這個部分的話應該當然這件事情我們當然一定要調查清楚那不管是怎樣就是至少我們要針對我們這個顏惠心副董"},{"start":10844.922,"end":10866.372,"text":"談判的部分能夠給他還他一個公道那當然這個部分我覺得監察院的話是不是可以這個更積極一點來去調查只要行政機關有一個法定的釐清事實我們這邊當然就可以再進入下一個監察院能夠好好的來去調查這個是不是有相關霸凌的事件那另外就是呢高雄市先前有發生台灣雕這個"},{"start":10869.393,"end":10891.141,"text":"檢驗數據有物質十倍的重大烏龍它害慘了漁民喔然後另外呢最近又爆發了173人中毒的春捲事件喔然後先前的抽驗也全部都合格那也證明了地方的這個衛生治理跟風險通報系統完全的失靈請問一下秘書長喔這兩岸吶我們監察院有沒有自動立案調查這個兩岸的自動立案調查"},{"start":10893.402,"end":10912.202,"text":"因為他都已經行政為師導致重大損害也代乎職守致民眾的權益受損依照監察院的立案派查原則其實應該都有符合的那請問一下你們有立案派查嗎方委員 是不是我請衛環委員會的施主蜜來跟您回應請說"},{"start":10914.424,"end":10921.686,"text":"報告委員有關這兩個案子目前還沒有委員要啟動調查或是排查的狀態但是我們在這麼重大的一個實案事件但是這三年來我們的實案的案件我們大概有像蘇丹紅或者是超食品或者是草莓雞食品這些的案件我們總共有16還有保齡查詢"},{"start":10939.89,"end":10967.843,"text":"我們有16案的調查案因為是高雄市政府嘛所以你們就不敢立案調查嗎這是在於委員的職權喔對 因為其實這個案子實案的問題其實現在相當大家對非常重視的那這個部分卻沒有自動立案調查所以說針對這個監察院對地方這個政府的失職的反應是不是有過於遲鈍或者是就是選擇性的包庇呢"},{"start":10969.902,"end":10976.344,"text":"我們會把您的建議帶回監察院另外我想大家都非常關心的就是這一次監察委員的這個不管是原來的秘書長李俊逸秘書長他用公務車去接送寵物每一種"},{"start":10991.007,"end":11001.416,"text":"那另外呢還有就是有監察委員用公務車去送機接送子女這些都引起社會對於監察院的這監察委員的一個這種應該是要更為"},{"start":11006.42,"end":11025.007,"text":"高標準的去要求自己那所以大家對於這個監察院確實在你們的新聞稿裡面也特別提到說對監察院的形象也有這個重創但是呢我們看到你們的內部的調查報告呢看到的就只有就是道歉跟觸其注意"},{"start":11025.787,"end":11043.286,"text":"一個請他在院會道歉 一個請他觸及注意針對全國的標準來看 一般民眾的標準來看這樣子的懲處是不是太輕了我剛才有先回答大會的質詢也就是說會進入到下一個階段 就進入到所謂的彈劾了"},{"start":11043.906,"end":11071.246,"text":"要在下一個階段我們的制度就是這個道歉接著就彈劾那彈劾的部分我們查過所有全台灣我們針對公務人員的彈劾案裡面跟公務車有相關的就公務車濫用等等有相關的案件有進入到彈劾的一定他必須還是具有司法訴追也就是他有貪賭的行為在裡面或是他有背信等的行為在裡面現在司法"},{"start":11073.287,"end":11091.718,"text":"市法已經結案了嘛所以我們沒有具足的法律理由沒有具足的法律理由來進入到台南但是這完全不符合一般民眾對於監察院的這種期待因為你看喔平常我們都要求全國的公務人員要守紀律要守連結"},{"start":11092.819,"end":11105.523,"text":"包括之前的32塊的電鍋結果呢送給拾荒老婦但是最後還是被判刑了但是呢對於監察委員的自己出問題的時候卻是這樣的輕輕放下那是不是有那種關關相護的感覺那這樣的社會會接受嗎大家能夠服眾嗎那針對這個部分難道監察委員自己本身都沒有這樣的一個自覺嗎"},{"start":11115.826,"end":11125.195,"text":"紀律委員會也要依據法制嘛那法制上面我們全國公務人員的標準就是有一個有嗎 這樣的全國公務人員的標準有一致嗎我們的彈劾的標準其實我想這個部分其實全國的公務人員都在看"},{"start":11133.862,"end":11156.402,"text":"千萬不能就是說監察委員對於全國的公務人員要求的這麼的嚴格然後只要有一點這樣子包括剛剛講的這32塊的電鍋就必須要這個有一些司法的一個追訴也被判刑結果監察委員自己遇到這樣子的事情的時候卻是輕輕放下這個完全不符合大家對於監察院的一個期待"},{"start":11156.662,"end":11181.556,"text":"您如果說的是那個刑事宿醉的話檢察官的部分我們當然是尊重嘛因為他就是不告發這個實在是讓大家覺得我們的機關就是依照我們過去的處理的相關原則就是進入到公務人員只要是公務車濫用這件事件進入到彈劾的都是有刑事宿醉的問題而且剛剛我想溫小林召委也有提到就是李俊一秘書長"},{"start":11182.977,"end":11210.375,"text":"這個部分在你們的這個報告裡面完全沒有提到那你們的理由是說因為他已經辭職了因為他已經辭職了他也不是在我們紀律委員會監察不過說真的剛才翁委員已經說他要提出相關的等於是申請我們會把這個那一般我看你們有很多針對我們針對我們社會上的一些重大的案件的話你們其實是會自己自己自己"},{"start":11210.855,"end":11236.162,"text":"主動的這個分案調查那以這件事情的話難道我們的秘書長當然我想您是絕對不會這樣做啦但是呢前秘書長做這樣的事情之後他只要辭職就沒事的話那以後就是告訴全國公務人員趕快我們犯了這個這樣子的一個問題之後如果有這樣的司法的上面的問題的時候我就是趕快辭職就沒事啦因為辭職之後就不用調查啦而且還有人檢舉請問秘書長"},{"start":11241.394,"end":11261.805,"text":"我們尊重委員的調查 那當然這個我們立法委員這邊也有提出建議 我們會把您的建議帶回去對啊 我想 因為其實我想最後啦 最後就是要跟秘務長這邊還有監察院的同仁講一下就是因為現在為什麼大家對監察院的這個信任感越來越低就是因為監察院拿不出相稱的作為"},{"start":11262.825,"end":11290.746,"text":"包括該查不查 該印不印 該自律不自律流失的不只是形象 而是整個監察制度的社會信任希望秘書長能夠把我們今天的委員的一些質詢的問題能夠帶回去好好的來去針對監察院的一個相關的問題 大家好好的來去檢討 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝徐宇珍委員的發言本席在這邊要講就是"},{"start":11293.379,"end":11297.544,"text":"剛剛我在質詢的時候其實相當程度的是諷刺監察院"},{"start":11299.213,"end":11326.28,"text":"對於做違法失職的案件竟然是被動等待有檢舉澄清案進來的時候才會進行調查依照監察法的規定的話你們自己本身就可以立案啊就可以自己進行調查那麼如果說要講檢舉的話也不是書面檢舉口頭檢舉也成立所以我剛剛在質詢台上的時候其實我已經提出了我的口頭檢舉那希望就是秘書長對把這個"},{"start":11329.144,"end":11354.722,"text":"本席剛剛所提出來的一些意見要帶回去給監察委員們對於李俊逸的這個案子監察院本身應該要主動的去調查連監察委員也都受到了相當程度的所謂的處分雖然我想在社會大眾是覺得這樣的一個處分也違反一般社會的國民情感但是對於李俊逸秘書長"},{"start":11359.231,"end":11375.882,"text":"也沒有去進行任何的調查做出任何的處分我認為社會大眾是無法接受這樣的一個情形所以請秘書長會去要去轉告這個監察委員們好的那麼"},{"start":11378.717,"end":11406.555,"text":"接下来我们再请侯孟凯委员侯孟凯委员侯孟凯委员不在郑振前委员郑振前委员郑振前委员不在蔡易余委员蔡易余委员蔡易余委员不在苏清泉委员苏清泉委员苏清泉委员不在杨琼英委员杨琼英委员杨琼英委员不在所有登记发言的委员都已经发言完毕"},{"start":11408.246,"end":11417.317,"text":"詢問結束 讓委員質詢時要求提供的相關資料或以書面答覆者請相關機關要盡速送交個別委員以及本會"},{"start":11421.896,"end":11438.12,"text":"委員蔡奇昌所提的書面質詢就列入記錄刊登公報並且相關機關已書面答覆好的那麼今天我們的議程所列的事項都已經處理完畢本次會議就進行到此結束現在散會謝謝大家"},{"start":11446.034,"end":11449.539,"text":"是,我希望就是說下一次的那個立法會議會議員會議員會議員會議員會議"}]}},{"id":"168580","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168580","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ec77822e2e6eae3e2811b5761ce2f4fba64134b0f452f2ee6b800412f8d870b4e5686418a82e3265ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"何欣純","委員發言時間":"11:26:52 - 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謝謝最認真最英俊的趙偉我們請最認真也最英俊的交通部部長好 我們請陳部長"},{"start":22.236,"end":33.3,"text":"部長好部長我看到你昨天有背著一個儀器然後去跟著白沙屯馬祖走路對不對是那個是行動氣象儀行動氣象儀就是氣象軍啦我們氣象署說那個叫氣象軍那為什麼會特地背著那個去走"},{"start":39.931,"end":68.207,"text":"報告委員因為我們這次白沙屯媽祖跟著他走的人四十幾萬人那四十到六十萬人這麼多的人那我們希望說能夠提供每一分鐘最新的就是走的過程當中地面上面的溼度溫度跟他目前的曝曬指數就是說紫外線曬的指數對對對我們希望每一分鐘提供給所有的信徒那他們看到這個之後呢他們就知道什麼時候應該要想辦法避暑那什麼時候有可能會下雨這個部分我們也都會提供資料"},{"start":68.547,"end":90.085,"text":"所以是透過你身上背的那個行動氣象儀能夠得到這些我相信現在的科技包括AI包括數位包括這些相關的系統整合所有這個行動的氣象儀但是透過你背的那一個載具之外是我們沿途都有相關的這個行動車輛嗎沒有另外用車還是有建制"},{"start":95.54,"end":124.637,"text":"他目前就是透過這個可能有SIM卡之類的通訊的機制從那個機器會直接傳送出來那你今天沒有背著他跟著白沙屯媽祖走那現在跟著白沙屯媽祖走的這些46萬的信眾們那他又如何得知是 報告委員因為我們的氣象署的同仁真的大家很辛苦我昨天會下去是因為他們會全程跟著走對 我就是要你講出這一句話我們是先給他們鼓掌一下好不好"},{"start":126.137,"end":143.445,"text":"謝謝真的這些同仁真的好辛苦每個都曬得非常的黑不過我相信白沙屯媽祖會保佑他們的因為他們有這份心而且我們行政單位可以這麼貼心的能夠提供這個措施這是今年第一次嗎還是往年都有"},{"start":144.182,"end":158.577,"text":"往年我們是沿途來做氣象的報告跟報導但我們為了更貼近真正大家的體感的溫度跟感受所以我們今年是第一次用行動氣象儀跟著大家走好我也希望未來我們相關的其他單位能夠也能夠"},{"start":159.778,"end":177.592,"text":"第一個跟得上這個民眾的日常跟得上民眾的這個生活那能夠透過這樣子的一個宗教的大盛事或者是其他領域的大盛事也可以讓大家感受到政府部門是很"},{"start":178.532,"end":201.502,"text":"貼近民意的是很貼近民眾的生活的政府部門是很貼心的好不好我覺得我今天一開始舉這個例子是因為我昨天看到新聞報導我是要先給我們交通部陳部長以及我們隨行的所有的人一個大大的鼓勵尤其是氣象署對不對好謝謝那第二個我今天要談"},{"start":203.014,"end":214.162,"text":"這個物價的問題因為燃油我看今天早上很多委員都在關心這件事這個4月7號的國籍航空的燃油附加費用有調漲所以國際線的票價有調漲是沒有錯"},{"start":218.044,"end":237.669,"text":"根據這個有調數的資料燃油是佔了所有這個航空業的營運成本大概兩三成那所以呢航空業因為油料的飆漲所以他成本大漲票價飆漲那一定是轉嫁給旅客那這個呢當然因為它叫做國際線有很多的國際航空公司不在我們可以這個"},{"start":239.89,"end":259.137,"text":"道德勸說也好或是掌控也好也不再是我們的管轄之內但是我還是希望我們自己可以的國籍航空是不是也能夠盡量盡量的緩漲慢慢漲不要一次漲太大不過要先肯定什麼"},{"start":260.499,"end":279.447,"text":"為了穩物價我們的油電是動漲的中油吸收了破百億相對的其實就是政府吸收電呢我們也維持動漲下一頁那跟交通部有關什麼民航的國內票價首度宣布動漲對不對那請問要動到什麼時候預估"},{"start":282.468,"end":297.803,"text":"報告委員因為我們這個實際上它的戰爭會發生多久這個不曉得沒人知道那油價會調漲到多久也不曉得那我們目前除了說短期之內拜託中油來做這個油價的平穩那之後再由交通部編列預算給中油"},{"start":298.243,"end":316.642,"text":"我們目前的估算是兩個版本一個是估到12月我們大概要花多少錢那另外一個是估到明年的12月也就是2016年的一整年我們都希望能夠做這樣子的控制那目前預算已經有估算出來那不過這個部分還是要看行政院整體的政策我們的裁員要從哪裡來"},{"start":317.162,"end":336.409,"text":"所以你有AB方案一個是估到今年的年底大概預估我們要交通部要補助這個國內航線的用油量是多少預算那第二個方案是估到明年的12月但是這個部分是叫做國內航線的用油對沒錯國內航線我覺得要跟"},{"start":337.009,"end":349.601,"text":"跟您討論因為我看到現在上一頁我現在已經看到了4月5月大概不管是哪一個航站從桃園、台中、高雄已經有268班的國際航班取消"},{"start":352.904,"end":359.527,"text":"那我揣測啦我當然不知道是不是這個原因啦是不是跟油價飆漲有關係啦我為什麼會提到這個因為這個取消呢牽動到的是整個產業跟市場包括呢這個旅遊觀光等等都有相關性下一頁以台中來講5月就減少了18個航班那這個部分呢18個航班牽涉到的就是什麼"},{"start":377.896,"end":385.924,"text":"國內外旅客的觀光 餐旅 住宿 運輸 接駁等各產業會受到影響這個部長你知道嗎"},{"start":386.553,"end":409.539,"text":"是 這個我們也都有掌握 包含整個全體 就是台灣所有的國際機場它的航班的變化狀況 還有台中機場的變化狀況 我們都在評估當中那目前航空公司會優先減班 或者是說把班次減少或合併的這個班次通常都是承載率比較低的也就是說訂票率不高的 他才會先做調整"},{"start":410.479,"end":434.468,"text":"我們希望是這樣子啦 希望是跟油價沒有關係跟油價還是有關係 跟油價是有關係所以他會優先選擇把定位率相對低的把它減少那也就是說定位率高的影響會影響到已經定位的旅客的權益啊會 那所以這個消費者的權益的部分我們也會來顧及就是說他該退費或者說該做這個年費的減免等等之類我們會來跟航空公司來溝通"},{"start":435.627,"end":460.04,"text":"對 因為就是這個不是只有這個航空減班的問題也不是只有他們航空公司的營運問題這牽涉到的還有旅客的消費者權益問題還包括我們的觀光 餐餘 住宿 運輸 接駁等各個產業都會受到影響那這個我是希望提早提醒我們交通部我們民航局包括觀光局我們應該要針對這樣子的一個"},{"start":463.882,"end":482.094,"text":"趨勢要先提早做準備要有因應的方案因為我們現在對於這個剛剛講的國內的民航機的用油有補助我們也有對公共運輸的這個公共運輸業也有補貼政策那未來我想來下一頁"},{"start":484.447,"end":500.478,"text":"剛剛部長提到的有估兩個方案是針對民航機的國內線的一個用油補助可是我們現在看到您對外所講的穩物價的85億再加上整體的政府的穩定物價的代價是1292億那裁員帶籌措那這些85億裡面是交通部給出來的數字"},{"start":508.704,"end":524.409,"text":"預估哪些項目到什麼時候用在什麼何處可用到何時就如同我剛剛在問你的民航機的國內線的用油的補貼你有兩個方案一個是預估到今年年底一個方案是預估到明年的年底那你這個85億到底是怎麼估出來的"},{"start":527.359,"end":551.393,"text":"向委員報告我們其實有分陸海空運空運的部分大概是40億左右那陸運的部分我們目前估算也差不多接近40億那海運的部分目前估算是差不多6億所以是用整體的海陸空這樣子大概來抓用在何處都只有這個燃油的一個補貼嗎用油的補貼嗎我們都是在用油的補貼沒有錯"},{"start":552.654,"end":577.488,"text":"所以沒有其他受到影響的產業的一個評估跟未來可能需要補貼的政策嗎像委員報告我們初步因為戰爭發生到會走到什麼樣的階段我們不曉得所以我們目前的估算是針對公共運輸的部分我們先做公共運輸的規劃那其他的部分我們會預先來看如果有可能會發生比較長期的影響我們會來預作規劃我就先提一個例子來下一頁"},{"start":578.728,"end":588.357,"text":"針對公共運輸你剛剛講沒錯你們現在針對公共運輸來來估預算那所以呢行政院已經說宣布動長但是呢來剛剛"},{"start":591.638,"end":617.147,"text":"部長有提到 我們現在因為國外旅遊 燃油的成本高所以國外旅遊的團價 票價 成本高 很貴所以這應該引導做國旅所以我們現在4月份 政府有開始補助2026國旅補助 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麻煩請石部長請石部長周委員好部長好我最近有看到一篇中央社的報導是有關於這個個縣市65歲以上超高齡人口的比例那我們從這張簡報的標題"},{"start":29.449,"end":47.962,"text":"台北市的佔比是24.18%是全國第一那乍看之下我們很容易就認為說因為台北市的比例是最高的所以衛福部應該投入的長照資源看起來好像也是應該是最高那我不知道這樣的論點部長認為是不是一個絕對正確的論點"},{"start":52.666,"end":72.039,"text":"因為我們的長照是服務跟著人走所以當然人口數多的地方他相對的分配他的資源就比較多那但是呢我們在有一些計畫在實施上還會考慮到他的財政能力分級而有不同的這個補助的比例所以這個是兩個"},{"start":73.66,"end":94.607,"text":"那我想是這樣子就是很多人看到就是說這些表象的數據是很容易就立刻會被誤導那如果說我們去考慮到縣市別這個人口的平均壽命可能答案就完全不一樣了那我這邊也稍微提一下就是說"},{"start":95.467,"end":116.807,"text":"因為台北它24.18%那台東也人口數這個老人人口數的這個占比也大概21%左右那因為也有可能我是說台北市的比例高於台東那有可能是就是說"},{"start":118.348,"end":133.719,"text":"台北市的這個醫療資源比較豐沛所以長者在各項疾病跟長照上他可以得到的處理是比較優的所以他可能壽命因此就延長那台東一樣就是說他"},{"start":135.461,"end":151.941,"text":"醫療資源相對就平擠了許多那再加上我們那邊工作機會很少所以很多年輕人都跑光光跑到外地去所以造成說我們的比例的換算上其實那個理由原因可能是不太一樣的那我們這張"},{"start":153.263,"end":169.296,"text":"簡報呢是原住民跟全國全體國民的平均壽命的比較那在資料是這個內政部發布的最新的這個112年的數據顯示原住民的平均壽命是73.25那男性是68.73女性呢77.75歲跟我們全國人民的平均壽命是"},{"start":181.306,"end":205.076,"text":"這個80.23比較起來差了將近7年的壽命所以從這個國民平等的這個角度來看的話呢原住民可以享受到政府的長照資源等於少了7年不過還好就是衛福部呢在這個長照2.0的時候呢雖然就是已經有放寬原住民55歲就可以使用這些長照資源這是很不錯的"},{"start":205.936,"end":234.573,"text":"那不過請不要忘記過去委員積極爭取各項在這個園民區會有特別的調整是謝謝部長我想做球給你你又把球做給我了好那就是說我們但是我們不要忘記就是說很多這個健康的問題還是65歲以後他才慢慢顯現出來所以我們還是應該要去關注這個整個縣市層級的資源分配"},{"start":237.736,"end":254.81,"text":"我看到了原住民人口占了超過三分之一的台東縣還有花蓮、屏東這些原住民都比較多的縣市在事實上使用長照獲得給付的比例還是偏低特別是在專業服務上面"},{"start":257.532,"end":280.112,"text":"在113年给付的人数占所有长照服务项目当中是最低的全年不到1500人那我还特别看了这个失智跟失能的服务机构大部分都围绕在台东市的周边其他偏乡地区的部落要使用其实还是很不方便的"},{"start":281.073,"end":304.466,"text":"最近也特別要感謝卓院長對台東鄉親的關心在本月的4日也視察了台東樂齡社福大樓的工程進度也特別謝謝石部長在3月27日的時候有聽取本席跟莊瑞雄委員還有饒縣長對於台東縣財務的支持"},{"start":308.288,"end":337.057,"text":"不知道就是說長照3.0原住民的部分以及這個卓院長的指示在這個衛福部是不是可以稍微說明一下目前的這個相關規劃跟進度好很謝謝委員提醒的就是因為產化法修法之後讓這個台東的這個財力分級呢大幅的躍升從本來是第五級跑到了第四級第一級去了"},{"start":338.238,"end":357.495,"text":"這個落差實在是太大但是我們也了解像委員提到的其實還有很多資源是相對上是缺乏所以我們還是會以中央的資源那麼雖然中央的資源也變少了但是我們願意更多的投入在這個偏鄉特別是台東這樣的一個"},{"start":358.576,"end":385.987,"text":"支援不足的地區所以在各項的補助條件上呢我們都會按照這個舊的比例來給予支持那當然另外也得考慮到地方的特殊性所以在這個部落的部分那麼應該要有有別於一般的這個長照的布點我們也在討論當中比如說在談的這個住宿式的機構我們傳統都是這種"},{"start":387.988,"end":410.025,"text":"區構式的住宿式機構那麼是不是現在有所謂的共生宅那更貼近於部落的需求這個目前我們也在規劃中也會先從這個部落這邊去優先的推動那另外相關的獨居老人的計畫我們也會先針對那麼資源比較不足的地方優先去推動"},{"start":410.365,"end":425.559,"text":"那在這邊也是稍微提醒一下在部落大樓不多所以我不曉得你們的公生宅是都會去可能在大樓裡面那其他其他的可能你們就也要再思考一下那我們回到這個廠商服務機構這個ABC的分部來談"},{"start":427.421,"end":441.016,"text":"本席有發現就是很多A級跟B級的單位他是同時要支持好幾個鄉鎮的這個照護就像這個聖母醫院聖母居家護理所他要"},{"start":441.837,"end":461.072,"text":"涵蓋他服務範圍要涵蓋太馬里鄉大武鄉達仁鄉的居家護理的服務但是他的地址是在台東市事實上就是說其實他距離也是很長範圍也很廣就或許在實施的難度上"},{"start":462.653,"end":489.795,"text":"它會有一些挑戰所以透過遠距的視訊服務還有巡迴式定點的服務就相對很重要了雖然目前我們台東對於主要提供原住民長照服務的這些文件站在數量上有很多的提升當然它的優點就是說它既靈活又便利"},{"start":490.876,"end":513.226,"text":"嗯但是就是說在文件站可以服務的專業項目呢僅僅是比較基礎的這些血壓量測啦還有健康促進等等喔那而且主要他是由這個園民會負責可是長照3.0呢他真正的專業服務其實還是由衛福部這邊在負責"},{"start":514.847,"end":534.534,"text":"那我今天在這裡想要特別提出以下的建議給衛福部就是第一個是希望你們能夠規劃提供這個巡迴服務的資源以台東為事辦的縣市因為你台東做好了你台東長照能做好你其他縣市一定做得好"},{"start":535.857,"end":555.732,"text":"因為利用這個長照台東縣的這個照管中心跟各個A級機構的這個能量來補助設備跟預算巡迴前往各個部落的文件站來提供這個輔具跟居家無障礙環境改善補助申請的這個評估評估與服務以及這個"},{"start":557.293,"end":575.464,"text":"物理與這個職能治療師的居家賦能還有營養諮詢護理指導等等還有針對這個五至八級失能者到載沐浴車糖尿病的逐步照護等等這些長照專業的特殊服務因為我前面講到的這個各個A級的機構當然我們"},{"start":580.227,"end":585.512,"text":"從這個申請 核定這些繁瑣的程序其實我們來看一下這個A級的機構的分布"},{"start":589.517,"end":611.552,"text":"大部分應該都是A級機構在台東來講應該都是醫院醫院在負責那我們看一下這個台東全長一百七十幾公里但是呢這四家A級的機構全部集中在台東市那如果以在這個根深路跟傳廣路為中間"},{"start":612.953,"end":641.02,"text":"三家聖母醫院基督教醫院還有這個台東部立醫院大概車程五分鐘那馬街在過去一點車程八分鐘左右八到十分鐘左右所以四個A級機構在全場一百七十幾公里的台東呢全部集中在台東市所以當然在這些在這些專業的服務上整個申請到執行核定執行"},{"start":642.867,"end":659.31,"text":"整個這個程序就是服務很集中地理很分散加起來等於就是延遲作業然後甚至在這過程當中還有很多長者是放棄的所以特別所以這個巡迴的服務就很重要了"},{"start":660.475,"end":678.873,"text":"那再來我看了就是依據你們行政院核定的這個長照10年計劃3.0未來文件站它你們規劃是要把它升級強化這個長照資源互助網長照資源互助網這樣子的一個概念"},{"start":681.374,"end":705.261,"text":"看起來就是說我是建議說讓文件站可以跟這個長照管理中心來連線然後遠端提供健康醫療照護等等的諮詢服務以及這個協調交通服務居家服務喘息服務等等這些文件站過去都沒有辦法提供的服務那"},{"start":706.862,"end":713.806,"text":"另外就是說因為這個服務的項目增加了可是文件站的照服員"},{"start":715.168,"end":741.008,"text":"他的薪水也大概就是三萬多那這個部分因為他們的工作量項目會增加所以是不是在薪水的部分也一併希望能夠來做調整這個部分不曉得部長看法怎麼樣因為至少起碼可以跟長照機構服務員的薪水四萬五到七萬這個差距不要那麼大"},{"start":742.75,"end":765.445,"text":"謝謝委員提出這樣的建議就是以這個巡迴服務跟遠距服務來補在地資源的不足這個方向上我們覺得非常支持所以我們再到委員辦公室詳細的討論那麼以台東我們來示範把這些文件站充分的利用"},{"start":766.205,"end":789.523,"text":"請你們提早來規劃那因為平常文件站的照服員其實他們就是說因為大家都知道到市區去這個醫院的距離很遙遠所以有時候他們還要在工作之餘要額外帶長者去市區去看病有時候還要去幫他們取藥很多然後甚至颱風天他們都還要主動一個一個去檢查"},{"start":790.444,"end":817.993,"text":"那現在這個問題在於就是說我想請問就是說這個文件案照服員在一般這樣認知上是可以領加班費的嗎如果額外增加的工作如果他是勞基法的適用人員當然就是可以好那我想請問一下在總預算在他們的整個預算編列上有加班費這個項目嗎這個我要了解一下對所以要請你們了解一下"},{"start":820.796,"end":832.372,"text":"那希望部長可以就是說可以體會本席今天質詢的用意那我們不要表面上被這個數據所誤導那很多原住民的長者他沒有獲得這個"},{"start":834.295,"end":852.254,"text":"到就是沒有獲得政府服務跟補助的資訊喔那甚至有需求呢其實也是不知道要怎麼申請那地方政府的人力跟物力其實都很有限所以更需要中央政府好特別很細心好主動的去這個去體諒好所以希望這個"},{"start":855.917,"end":883.238,"text":"部長可以跟衛福部的這些官員們可以聽進去然後而且真的把資源投入進去那我們的思考就從台東開始因為它的它就是最長然後最善然後長照最困難做好的地方所以我才會說你如果台東做得好那我們整個台灣長照一定做得好好謝謝好謝謝謝謝委員我們來努力"},{"start":883.639,"end":883.739,"text":"謝謝陳穎薇的諮詢"}]}},{"id":"168577","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168577","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ec77822e2e6eae383811a2e6e78f0cf61f404ecbec9cddcf584cb79d4e23178c0ae87ae6cfd03fb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"11:43:01 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謝謝主席 本席首先邀請外交部請陳次長"},{"start":12.133,"end":32.047,"text":"委員長好,我想針對於美伊衝突發生在中東,我相信影響不是只有中東。那麼這個戰爭引發了三件事情,美國戰略的資源是否會從印太來轉移,尤其是第二項,全球能源的這個問題。"},{"start":33.368,"end":61.413,"text":"以及航運成本是不是會外溢到台灣那中國大陸是不是會藉此機會在亞太來擴張那政府本身認為必須將這場戰爭呢是當成我國面臨的一個風險來做處理所以外交部在美國長期強調印太優先但是他現在大量的軍力呢飛彈庫存以及航母戰力呢被"},{"start":62.173,"end":89.823,"text":"拉到中東去所以外媒指示說美軍部分長程飛彈跟防空的攔截系統庫存都已受到壓力甚至延後對盟邦的一個交付所以要請教在美國有兩條線的壓力的時候也就是中東跟印太對於我們台灣的影響到底是如何 請做說明"},{"start":90.243,"end":109.52,"text":"我想現在這個大的一個情勢當然是非常的大啦那麼剛才委員也正確的提到有關於這個整個亞太的這個印太的情勢那包括這一個相關的這個軍事資源的一個調動那的確是我們非常的關心的一個狀況我們現在跟這個在這個印太地區的這個國家"},{"start":110.641,"end":136.998,"text":"那麼共同的跟美國表示相關的一個關切喔那麼對於如何能夠確保在整個中東情勢因為中東這個狀況來講就是說它其實赫姆斯海峽的這個情勢影響到全球的經濟那剛才這個好幾位委員的質詢上面還有這個經濟部的回答沒有很清楚就因為大家看到這個必須是要以風險來做處理那請教外交部你的動作你的方向是什麼"},{"start":137.778,"end":164.215,"text":"當然是我們現在第一我們當然是進行我們說的外管透過各種的資源各種的管道能夠收集相關的情資做我們相關的研判包括經濟部包括行政院的研判的基準第二個是說我們透過外交的作為那麼也跟這個鄰近的國家共同表示我們在這個情況之下那麼也請注意到這個印太安全跟印太的整個軍事局"},{"start":164.275,"end":184.442,"text":"有沒有跟日本協調區域穩定的這個立場當然是跟日本隨時他的對話溝通的管道都隨時的暢通那在事情上面我們也了解這個一個情勢那我想這個現在的一個情勢的一個發展對大家來說都是一個比較需要高度關注的狀況必須密切去"},{"start":185.342,"end":206.329,"text":"了解 應對那所以因此在現在伊朗的這個軍事跟經濟壓力那赫姆茲海峽對於整個能源是全球都非常的非常的關注尤其台灣我們目前有大概三成左右是從這個方向來的那所以在經濟部的立場"},{"start":207.609,"end":226.297,"text":"除了協調中油之外那更要多元多項的多線的去將我們的能源能夠穩定但是所有的產業民生壓力非常的大因為經濟部告訴我們如果以現在我們在四月份還善可"},{"start":226.897,"end":254.946,"text":"五月份我們必須要啟動特別採購那這個特別採購除了以往我們有這個契約的就照著長約走但是如果增加的部分是必須要以現況的價格那大家聽到這一句話呢就非常的緊張因為它的成本會增加而且它的通膨在整個民生上面會非常的緊張就成如最近"},{"start":255.706,"end":280.932,"text":"我們的索卡諾卡就開始全面PVC等不斷地在上漲一粒有可能三四四四這個價格的波動那在這個整個影響的一個程度上面我們又看到美國官員的說法美軍已經在波斯灣周圍部署15艘的軍艦那換句話說它形成對伊朗港口的一個海上封鎖網"},{"start":282.532,"end":297.897,"text":"它可以登建上去去檢查那在這樣的一個情況之下因為赫姆森海峽對於我們能源的來源也是非常重要的一個管道那全球能源的供應在吃緊的情況之下我相信亞洲是首當其衝"},{"start":301.738,"end":315.463,"text":"所以外交部針對於這樣子的一個大家都認為能源等於是國安事件的一個處理那在這個油氣供應的風險評估你們是否跟能源輸出國"},{"start":317.19,"end":333.909,"text":"有沒有特別的這個緊急應對也就是緊急外交的一個溝通機制請教說明現在就是說其實我們經濟部採購的方向那當然經濟部還是最好來回答就我剛才的了解是說其實包括澳洲、美國"},{"start":335.17,"end":354.711,"text":"加拿大等等這些重要的油氣供應國他們在國際現貨市場上採購當然成本壓力也都非常高外交部的做法是說我們希望在這個上面能夠跟主要的國家尤其是過去的時候我們的能源從西方來"},{"start":356.209,"end":379.471,"text":"那現在因為那個橫浦之海峽發生了這樣一個危機必須要從東邊的來調度所以我們希望外交的這個努力能夠配合這個東西我們跟澳洲其實說實在有一個還不錯的關係跟美國跟加拿大都有很好的關係我們在這個架構上面能夠協助經濟部能夠調度你想到這個重點喔次長經濟部多元面向"},{"start":380.711,"end":382.092,"text":"的線索去努力"},{"start":411.891,"end":439.097,"text":"請說明當然尤其是美國現在是全世界最重要的一個產油國嘛氣也是一樣那麼他們美國過去的時候一向鼓勵我們跟美國來採購那現在美國的整個供應來說的話當然價格都會比較高但是供應來說的話都還可以所以我們在這個事情上面都強化我們跟台美雙方的一個互動就能源韌性的議題上面的一個合作"},{"start":439.717,"end":468.302,"text":"那我們做了各種的這個溝通能夠協助市場行為還是這樣經濟部還是必須要在現貨市場上面調貨所以經濟部告訴我們一句話他說因為我們的人員不錯所以也有國家願意要特別提供給我們那如果照剛剛市長所說的這個方向大家都知道是哪一個國家但是一個重點台美的關係我們一定要把握好"},{"start":468.962,"end":496.787,"text":"因為產業所面臨的是數字問題如果你的成本成為經濟部告訴我們的如果額外採購當然會以現貨的價格更高的價格這是經濟部告訴我們的也是產業所憂心的我希望政府各部門必須要去協助讓我們的產業可以安穩過關這也就是外交部跟經濟部甚至國防會這邊要怎麼樣去合作這是政府的責任"},{"start":498.088,"end":524.768,"text":"接下來我最後請問一個問題總統在22號要訪問斯瓦帝尼斯瓦帝尼這個總統也跟我們很好也是非洲唯一一個我們的邦交國這個國王甚至在總統就職的時候他也帶隊來我們非常的謝謝他也是非洲僅有的邦交國這個國王率團來祝賀所以本席要請教這一次"},{"start":525.709,"end":554.102,"text":"你們似乎是以直飛的方式 是不是那為什麼不會過境呢因為在我們整個過境外交也是一個非常重要的重頭戲請說明 會不會有過境外交我覺得現在的我覺得剛才也有回答另外的委員的一個質詢我們希望任務能夠單純然後也是展現我們的誠意那也能夠以這個便利舒適為最重要的一個考量"},{"start":555.382,"end":569.19,"text":"任務單純 舒適 簡單化但是我們以往也就是國軍外交向來是我們非常重要的重頭戲啊那這一次轉一個彎說是簡單 單純那這個讓國人好像還有很多的問號所以本下要請教是不是有持續跟美方來安排洽談總統訪美或者是國軍美國"},{"start":583.846,"end":609.5,"text":"我們所有的努力溝通都一直持續在進行不然跟委員報告一下因為這個飛往非洲比較少這個途徑美國那麼這過去的這個所謂的過境外交的一個突破主要是在於像美日好像剛才也有提到像在那個蘇院長去日本看球賽這個事情那我們這個部分我們就不多做的這個評論"},{"start":610.06,"end":636.239,"text":"所以你現在說此行 好 我們得到一個結論就是簡單 單純 誠意那所以請教 在今年會不會安排總統過境美國或者是訪美 請教我們所有的這個規劃都持續在進行那但是實際的是說最後的一個拍板決定以及對外宣布都是由總統府來做所以這也是一個選項是 所有的東西我們都持續在規劃之中好"},{"start":640.162,"end":640.222,"text":"謝謝好謝謝楊瓊瑩委員"}]}},{"id":"168576","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168576","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ec77822e2e6eae37bbb8b84a229b2848ea785098ebfecd5f584cb79d4e231782bfe832c71c1a02f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖偉翔","委員發言時間":"11:29:36 - 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同意再次行文發函給所有的供應商也就是我們的經銷商或藥商好你們會發嗎那什麼時候要發那現在什麼時候要發"},{"start":350.536,"end":376.49,"text":"跟委員說明其實剛剛署長也有提到在108年這個食藥署就已經發過一個函在這個辦法實施之前藥商都可以供應所以只要你們在這裡明確講這件事情我們在替這些事主這些毛小孩的爸媽要讓他們安心然後呢因為這段時間你也要讓這些供應商安心因為你雖然說你暫緩了"},{"start":378.931,"end":408.391,"text":"但是現在還是有相關的法規限制還是有存在的那藥商賣藥給獸醫院在法律上他會覺得有風險對不對所以你現在暫緩憑良心獎不等於解決啊說實在獸醫師他每天在法律風險中救命所以你應該要趕快我的訴求啊我的訴求很簡單第一個你兩週內或者是最好是這一週你就可以去發函好就發函然後呢韓市說他們現在不會有這個遇到所謂違法的問題他可以這樣使用"},{"start":409.031,"end":423.093,"text":"那再來一個月內要解決這個醫用氧氣你要確保這些這個不管是各個醫院他都可以用到足夠的這些氧氣讓這些毛小孩在急診的時候可以安全無虞"},{"start":427.052,"end":442.888,"text":"好委員我跟您報告氧氣在被存在社會醫院這事情是目前制度還是繼續進行所以不會因為如果說7月1號如期實施這個辦法當然大家就會有恐懼但也有解套的方法但如果現在是沒有問題原來不是"},{"start":445.47,"end":459.92,"text":"我是說假設7月1號也有一個解決方法就是用寄存的方式寄存的方式但現在沒有那個辦法實施所以現在維持現在的制度上是沒有所以你就承諾我我剛剛訴求蠻簡單的第一你要含釋方案好不好含釋告訴大家這個沒有問題大家不用擔心有這個違法法律風險好這第一件事第二件事情就是你要承諾這些事情都是可以做到的不會因此"},{"start":473.108,"end":483.717,"text":"讓他們沒有所謂的氧氣可以容應因為現階段我們就是有收到對但是我們就是有收到相關的擔憂跟陳情我才會在這裡跟你提出質疑我現在就是要你把這件事情講出來這樣你懂嗎確定喔可以承諾嗎跟委員承諾啦就是說下一個應該是有農業部他會發一個函來註銷這一個管理辦法"},{"start":494.867,"end":508.134,"text":"那麼在註銷這個管理辦法的同時我們食藥署也會再發一個函在這個辦法沒有新的辦法實施之前那麼藥商能量可以供應這個相關的701項的藥品包含這個醫用氣體所以你們現在的這個辦法究竟是暫緩還是廢除"},{"start":518.622,"end":541.749,"text":"註銷 註銷了 註銷了要用一個新的辦法對不對好這個事情也要講清楚好那再來我要再問第二個問題喔也是請杜署長美濃的狗園啊349隻超量收容他上限是120那他的BCS是1到3喔那至少"},{"start":542.796,"end":563.109,"text":"無死那動保處裁罰四萬五沒有移送那據瞭解承諾發新聞但是也沒有發好這個不行這個部分請問一下我們署長有沒有掌握對不起委員雖然是在農業部但我是動植物防疫檢疫署那這個的業務是屬於動保師那據我瞭解動保師應該在做處理了"},{"start":565.37,"end":593.808,"text":"有在處理那我要告訴你因為你們今天農業部來你算是最高的長官那我一定轉達好我跟你說沒有我要繼續講我現在就是要講給大家聽所以比較一下這個案子2022年的時候它的這個2022年桃園觀音案也有數十具的這個遺骸那罰了二十多萬而且移送法辦那高雄這一次呢罰四萬五沒有移送那為什麼同一部動保法有兩種標準"},{"start":596.223,"end":604.297,"text":"對不對 那署長 農業部作為中央主管機關你們應該要去主動介入 或者是有沒有監督機制 有或沒有"},{"start":606.621,"end":627.597,"text":"絕對是有監督機制的因為動保法裡面其實規範的還相當好有監督機制可是看起來完全就是有問題因為你們沒入84之後那還有一個叫園主要自行減量約80隻那這80隻去了哪裡有跨縣市移動嗎你們農業部有沒有辦法追蹤到"},{"start":629.642,"end":653.8,"text":"我跟委員報告一下如果說在於回到收容所的業務的時候其實是中央跟地方分工的不過我覺得這件事情我還是要請中央地方分工沒有錯可是他跨縣市移動了這就像是這就是中央部會本來就應該我剛說你有沒有監管有沒有管理的機制好那他移動了你有沒有辦法知道他移動去了哪裡那你們有沒有統籌機制請問有或沒有"},{"start":657.944,"end":675.483,"text":"有來嗎是好那個委員我這樣講啦針對的這個的部分那我們是不是會後可以提供處理的請會後提供給本市報告好那因為我想要再問那全全國的188間的民間狗場合法的有幾間所以"},{"start":679.436,"end":703.192,"text":"我們不是主管機關所以還是我好那我在這裡告訴大家林吼那公立收容8000隻遊蕩犬有16萬喔那高雄流向民間最多那84隻僅3隻進了公立那其餘的有TSPCA承擔那募款要443萬動保法也有沒有向市主追討安置費的法源請農業部如果有任何人知道都可以回答"},{"start":709.266,"end":736.08,"text":"就好沒有只能請棟寶師整體性針對好那你這個請你也記錄下來因為我查的就是沒有好430萬民間承擔300多隻狗不當飼養啊只罰了4萬5一隻狗的命喔只值啊150塊啊150塊所以我覺得這個已經是完全有兩兩套標準所以我最後的訴求喔就是四個書面喔第一個兩週內要"},{"start":739.884,"end":761.97,"text":"這個發函函式剛剛所謂的要確保這些供應商還有這些獸醫師他們都可以不會覺得在遊走在法律邊緣然後要盡速解決我剛剛說的去了解究竟這些供應商他們有沒有因為這樣子不供應氧氣然後要去了解每一個獸醫院他在急診的部分這個使用有沒有問題"},{"start":762.89,"end":778.419,"text":"然後呢兩週內或者是你們會後直接可以的話就提供給我你們我剛剛說的這個高雄的案子他的這八十支犬的去處還有一個月內大量的飼養納管方案我要說喔政府花了這個"},{"start":779.72,"end":803.756,"text":"整件事情花了11年準備這個寵物用藥的制度結果到現在看起來是一塌糊塗結果讓茅海有醫生可能卻沒有藥用 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有請黃秘書長"},{"start":19.686,"end":46.739,"text":"民主黨您好我想其實監察院對於一般民眾來說就當作是憲法的一個守護者所以對於監察院也有很高的一個期待那身為當然國家最高的監察機關其實在過往有很多讓我們覺得非常敬畏的事情包括說1957年的時候監察院敢於挑戰威權的體制彈劾當時的行政院長余鴻鈞"},{"start":47.959,"end":63.94,"text":"那在2000年巴掌溪事件的時候呢監察院也火速調查彈劾當時的行政院秘書長李毅陽而且追究內政部跟消防署高層職責那在2015年的時候面對當時的台南市長賴清德"},{"start":65.422,"end":81.232,"text":"以政治理由拒禁議會手開地方這個自治史上的惡例的時候監察院也不為政治的壓力依法彈劾那所以在這個部分呢事實上是符合人民的一個期待覺得這也就是監察院該做的事情"},{"start":82.012,"end":103.047,"text":"那剛剛呢我想也有委員提到啊就是針對我們可以看一下就是監察院的這個國家人權委員會在4月9號的時候有公開呼籲政府要暫緩放寬外籍幫庸制度認為會衝擊到勞動權益跟性別平等結果勞動部連甩都不甩照樣推動喔"},{"start":103.547,"end":122.282,"text":"那我想剛剛呢我想人權委員會的秘書長好像也有回答說其實他們沒有調查跟糾正的權利他們只能建議那依照這個部分的話那請問一下那監察院為什麼不來做這件事情呢"},{"start":128.939,"end":156.638,"text":"我們監察院的職責尤其是監察委員對於公務人員的彈劾糾舉都是因為他有違法或是失職那這個部分還在政策的層面政策的層面的話就不屬於違法或失職的範疇所以目前來講我們的還沒有進入到相關的這種所謂的糾舉的一個程序監察的一個程序是事實但是"},{"start":157.378,"end":173.754,"text":"但是這個部分所有的人權委員他本身也身兼監察委員倘若委員也有發現有任何違法或失職之處委員當然也可以發動但是這只是制度上面會主動調查嗎"},{"start":174.795,"end":200.318,"text":"這我沒辦法就個案來跟您回應因為這畢竟是每個委員他的調查的職權我想既然人權委員會這邊會提出這樣子的一個建議那一定就是認為這個應該外傭行子應該不要這麼貿然的就上路當然道中部會在4月13日還是一樣照樣實施嘛那針對這個部分我是覺得與其尋求就立法院這邊的一個合作我覺得監察院應該要負起責任來"},{"start":202.199,"end":225.814,"text":"就針對如果有這樣子的違法失職的相關的事件的話監察院應該就要主動的來提起調查其實我一開始的時候就有跟大會報告是說真的監察院跟立法院本來就是合作的就是您的質詢權在最後當然進入到我們這邊也會都收到收錄到相關然後會進入到所謂的調查權的這個部分是"},{"start":226.795,"end":248.432,"text":"那針對這個部分當然這個案子剛剛已經提了那另外再一個案子就是說針對經貿辦的這個副總談判代表嚴惠心不信離實那因為傳出背後都有涉及到這個長期的職場霸凌那已經也有人到監察院去告發了那請問這個監察委員開始調查了嗎在海巡調查了解這個案子"},{"start":253.244,"end":281.098,"text":"這個案子已經有委員在函詢調查之中了解調查之中那目前的進度呢我們請我們業務處的處長來說明目前這個案子報告委員目前這個案子我們現在是函行政院那但是目前行政院的復函還沒有回來所以我們會回來你們函行政院多久了大概目前為止大概一個月左右"},{"start":282.031,"end":287.209,"text":"多久?不到一個月那請問行政院一般都會多久含富呢?"},{"start":288.157,"end":314.759,"text":"原則上談覆的期限在法規上面是兩個月所以這個案子總共要拖三個月才有可能啟動調查嗎因為我看有的案子其實非常快速因為你們監委就會主動的分案調查然後也非常快速的在執行那這個案子其實國人都非常關心因為對於這麼優秀的一個副總談判的代表"},{"start":315.359,"end":342.875,"text":"居然是遭到霸凌而離世那當然這個部分的話大家都會非常的關心這樣的一個進度那如果照這樣含複來含複去的話這可能一拖又是半年以上了委員在行政機關跟監察院之間它這個含複來含複去的過程有它的有時候也有它的必要性譬如說霸凌案的調查現在我看到行政院也有在啟動所以它的這整個的調查它那邊也要完備啊它也要完成之後當然我覺得當然調查"},{"start":343.615,"end":364.234,"text":"一定要有必要性但是有我覺得那個效率啦還有速度其實要不要就只是按照法規因為兩個月所以我就是兩個月我覺得這個部分的話應該當然這件事情我們當然一定要這個調查清楚那不管是怎樣就是至少我們要這個就是針對我們這個顏惠心副董"},{"start":364.974,"end":386.423,"text":"談判的部分能夠給他還他一個公道那當然這個部分我覺得監察院的話是不是可以這個更積極一點來去調查只要行政機關有一個法定的釐清事實我們這邊當然就可以再進入下一個監察院能夠好好的來去調查這個是不是有相關霸凌的事件那另外就是呢高雄市先前有發生台灣雕這個"},{"start":389.445,"end":411.195,"text":"檢驗數據有物質十倍的重大烏龍害慘了漁民然後另外呢最近又爆發了173人中毒的春捲事件然後先前的抽驗也全部都合格那也證明了地方的這個衛生治理跟風險通報系統完全的失靈請問一下秘書長這兩岸我們監察院有沒有自動立案調查這兩岸有沒有自動立案調查"},{"start":413.436,"end":432.245,"text":"因為他都已經行政為師導致重大損害也代乎職守致民眾的權益受損依照監察院的立案派查原則其實應該都有符合那請問一下你們有立案派查嗎方文文是不是我請衛環委員會的施主蜜來跟您回應請說"},{"start":434.466,"end":441.729,"text":"報告委員有關這兩個案子目前還沒有委員要啟動調查或是排查的狀態但是我們在這麼重大的一個實案事件但是這三年來我們的實案的案件我們大概有像蘇丹紅或者是超食品或者是草莓雞食品這些的案件我們總共有16還有保齡茶"},{"start":459.935,"end":487.897,"text":"對 我知道 我現在是針對我們有16案的調查案因為是高雄市政府嘛所以你們就不敢立案調查嗎這是在於委員的職權喔對 因為其實這個案子實案的問題其實現在相當大家對非常重視的那這個部分卻沒有自動立案調查所以說針對這個監察院喔對地方這個政府的失職的反應是不是有過於遲鈍或者是就是選擇性的包庇呢"},{"start":489.954,"end":494.396,"text":"我們會把您的建議帶回監察院另外我想大家都非常關心的就是這一次監察委員的這個不管是原來的秘書長李俊逸秘書長他用公務車去接送寵物每一種"},{"start":511.044,"end":521.451,"text":"那另外呢還有就是有監察委員用公務車去送機接送子女這些都引起社會對於監察院的監察委員的一個應該是要更為"},{"start":526.474,"end":554.032,"text":"高標準的去要求自己那所以大家對於這個監察院確實在你們的新聞稿裡面也特別提到說對監察院的形象也有這個重創但是呢我們看到你們的內部的調查報告呢看到的就只有就是道歉跟觸其注意一個請他在院會道歉一個請他觸其注意針對全國的標準來看一般民眾的標準來看這樣子的懲處是不是太輕了"},{"start":554.472,"end":569.052,"text":"我剛才有先回答大會的質詢也就是說會進入到下一個階段就進入到所謂的彈劾要在下一個階段我們的制度就是這個道歉接著就彈劾"},{"start":569.993,"end":591.378,"text":"那彈劾的部分我們查過所有全台灣我們針對公務人員的彈劾案裡面跟公務車有相關的就公務車濫用等等有相關的案件有進入到彈劾的一定他必須還是具有司法訴追也就是他有貪賭的行為在裡面啊或是他有背信等的行為在裡面"},{"start":593.318,"end":601.083,"text":"市法已經結案了嘛所以我們沒有具足的法律的理由沒有具足的法律理由來進入到南河但是這完全不符合一般民眾對於監察院的這種期待因為你看喔平常我們都要求全國的公務人員要守紀律要守連結"},{"start":612.871,"end":625.584,"text":"包括之前的32塊的電鍋結果呢送給拾荒老婦但是最後還是被判刑了但是呢對於監察委員的自己出問題的時候卻是這樣的輕輕放下那是不是有那種關關相護的感覺那這樣的社會會接受嗎大家能夠服眾嗎那針對這個部分難道監察委員自己本身都沒有這樣的一個自覺嗎"},{"start":635.874,"end":645.238,"text":"紀律委員會也要依據法制嘛那法制上面我們全國公務人員的標準就是有一個有嗎 這樣的全國公務人員的標準有一致嗎我們的彈劾的標準其實我想這個部分其實全國的公務人員都在看"},{"start":653.922,"end":676.433,"text":"千萬不能就是說監察委員對於全國的公務人員要求的這麼的嚴格然後只要有一點這樣子包括剛剛講的這32塊的電鍋就必須要這個有一些司法的一個追訴也被判刑結果監察委員自己遇到這樣子的事情的時候卻是輕輕放下這個完全不符合大家對於監察院的一個期待"},{"start":676.713,"end":701.607,"text":"您如果說的是那個刑事宿醉的話檢察官的部分我們當然是尊重嘛因為他就是不告發這個實在是讓大家覺得我們的機關就是依照我們過去的處理的相關原則就是進入到公務人員只要是公務車濫用這件事件進入到彈劾的都是有刑事宿醉的問題而且剛剛我想溫小林召委也有提到就是李俊一秘書長"},{"start":703.028,"end":730.426,"text":"這個部分在你們的這個報告裡面完全沒有提到那你們的理由是說因為他已經辭職了因為他已經辭職了他也不是在我們紀律委員會監察不過說真的剛才翁委員已經說他要提出相關的等於是我們會把這個您的相關的建議帶回去我們針對我們社會上的一些重大的案件的話你們其實是會自己自己自己"},{"start":730.906,"end":756.396,"text":"主動的這個分案調查那以這件事情的話難道我們的秘書長當然我想您是絕對不會這樣做啦但是呢前秘書長做這樣的事情之後他只要辭職就沒事的話那以後就是告訴全國的公務人員趕快我們犯了這個這樣子的一個問題之後如果有這樣的司法的上面的問題的時候我就是趕快辭職就沒事啦因為辭職之後就不用調查啦而且還有人檢舉前面秘書長"},{"start":761.445,"end":781.854,"text":"我們尊重委員的調查 那當然這個我們立法委員這邊也有提出建議 我們會把您的建議帶回去對啊 我想 因為其實我想最後啦 最後就是要跟MU長這邊還有監察院的同仁講一下就是因為現在為什麼大家對監察院的這個信任感越來越低就是因為監察院拿不出相稱的作為"},{"start":782.854,"end":803.672,"text":"包括该查不查 该硬不硬 该自律不自律流失的不只是形象而是整个监察制度的社会信任希望秘书长能够把我们今天的委员的一些质询的问题能够带回去好好的来去针对监察院的一个相关的问题大家好好的来去检讨谢谢"}]}},{"id":"168570","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168570","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ec77822e2e6eae38a8a2b4449b79e8e354b0245b1feb432f584cb79d4e2317895660381a021fc6f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"11:25:54 - 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謝謝趙偉那我們是不是有請運動部次長運動部黃次長委員你好次長好"},{"start":28.266,"end":49.804,"text":"今天是在講這個運動產業不過我現在還是站在我們嘉義縣在嘉義縣主要在這個運動的場館來說基本上是相對其他地方來說是明顯的偏低我們舉以數字來說目前嘉義縣所有"},{"start":50.825,"end":76.797,"text":"就是把所有的運動項目加起來的一個場館就是只有28處那在全國的比例來說它就只有1.488那我們加一些面積也是很大這麼大的一個面積結果只有28個運動場館這運動場館還包括不同的運動項目有的可能是羽球有的可能是網球還是怎樣的一個運動場館但是就是只有28處"},{"start":78.018,"end":95.692,"text":"很明顯如果站在運動平權的一個概念來說相對其他縣市官價是偏弱那所以站在這一點的話我們希望是不是未來運動部在成立之後可以就所謂這一些不管是偏向也好或者是每一個縣市"},{"start":96.633,"end":111.898,"text":"他的多少人口他就必須要有多少的一個運動的一個空間給他們有足夠的一個運動的一個能量這件事是不是我們運動部這邊可以來做一個通盤的檢討呢是的我們會從這個方面來做努力"},{"start":113.404,"end":138.503,"text":"從這方面因為我事實上數字也有拿給你看如果我們嘉義縣在這五到十年內大概新增的運動場館就只有三個五年內大概就只剩一個這個一個就是我們現在說的水上的全民運動中心所以你看這五年來其他的相對跟嘉義縣可能比較類似屬於農業縣的你看雲林就增加了五個"},{"start":139.924,"end":168.282,"text":"運動的一個場館苗栗也增加了三個花蓮也增加了四個這五年內我說這五年內嘉義就是在水上增加了一個運動中心所以如果以這樣來說未來有可能啦嘉義也有需要再有一些新的運動場館尤其是在人口集中人口就是比較相對比較都會化的一個地方像中埔的山河地區像民雄像瀑子"},{"start":169.082,"end":189.361,"text":"他們也是需要一個綜合的一個運動館所以這個當然未來不管是地方政府提報計畫我們還是希望運動部站在這一點可以多支持我們家一點這個可以嗎是的我們會努力來做這樣子方面的協助好那第二個第二個我再來問就是說如果你現在就業金卡"},{"start":191.055,"end":211.263,"text":"就業金卡的一個數字因為我們知道就業金卡是吸引外國的這一些攬柴嘛讓這一些具有一些專門技術職業的人然後可以來台灣定居然後也讓台灣覺得是他們一個適合生活的一個地方結果以就業金卡目前看起來運動類"},{"start":213.865,"end":225.259,"text":"運動類大概就只有30個比例上0.19%也是明顯的偏低所以運動部有辦法打造出一個適合全世界運動的人才會來台灣"},{"start":227.711,"end":249.933,"text":"來台灣居住來台灣接受他平常的訓練有辦法打造出這樣的一個環境嗎根據目前的資料顯示這持有運動類型的金卡多數是運動員那其實在運動產業的發展當中其實有非常多的專業人才也可以透過這樣的機制進到台灣來而我們努力的方向就是希望能夠去招攬"},{"start":250.794,"end":273.747,"text":"各類的運動專業人才能夠透過這樣的機制來台灣協助我們一起來提升台灣運動產業的發展對那具體上來說你們要怎麼去鼓勵這些運動專業當然不同的運動會有不同的他們的一個喜好啦跟這個國內這個國內他在哪一些運動是可能比較適合國內發展那可能相對的人才會來過去"},{"start":275.228,"end":291.714,"text":"因為過去都是運動員那都是會有一個推薦單位也就是透過協會或是聯盟來推薦這個優秀的運動員那因為這樣的一個推薦他可以進來接下來我們就需要透過各方面的專業團體幫我們邀請比如說有國際上面非常會經營運動賽會的人才"},{"start":296.475,"end":314.265,"text":"我們台灣將要對我們台灣的運動賽會做整體的一個優質的一個改變我們要想辦法去吸引這一類的人才到台灣來工作帶領我們在運動賽會經營管理上面的一種提升如果有這樣子的人才願意來台灣我們會非常非常的歡迎"},{"start":315.768,"end":343.564,"text":"所以就是就辦理運動賽會這個也算是運動專業他就是可能就比較扣緊今天的主題叫做運動產業既然說我們運動如果整個產業的話包括整個運動這個的經營管理也都是運動的專業並不是只有不是只有運動員或者是防護員包括經營的人才都是屬於那如果以次長你現在來看起來"},{"start":344.813,"end":354.492,"text":"扣回今天的主題運動產業你認為台灣有辦法把體育運動變成產業的大概台灣目前都是哪些運動比較有機會"},{"start":356.294,"end":383.009,"text":"目前的運動發展以職業運動來說當然就是棒球籃球跟排球我們希望其實我們非常的希望看到是更多基層的有目前在少年足球這一塊他的參與率其實是非常非常的高的比克球目前在基層也非常多人的參與因此這類型有很大基礎的參與人口的都有可能透過我們的引導跟協助跟透過地方俱樂部的一種引導"},{"start":384.009,"end":400.652,"text":"讓他成為一個生態系只要生態系可以建立的起來他就有機會成為一個產業我看我們地方我們地方國小事實上在推這個五人制足球事實上也都不錯很多國小他很願意去踢這個這個足球但是看起來"},{"start":402.225,"end":427.416,"text":"都在國小端 可能到了國高中後就忽然間這個運動就比較沒用看起來好像有一些銜接上的一個障礙這也是我們希望能夠把這個學生學校為單位這個概念慢慢的轉換為社區的俱樂部的概念透過外面的企業來支持這個俱樂部讓它可以永續的發展下去"},{"start":427.816,"end":444.584,"text":"好如果站在產業立場我認為的確應該是這樣去推動不同的運動它有不同的發展的面向那主要養成國人運動的一個風氣我想這是現在我們你們升格為運動部應該要這樣去努力的好不好的確是好謝謝好謝謝蔡議員"}]}},{"id":"17350","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17350","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a6850554717462f89e5babef2e78c1fab2db847b9569dcea103dfd735f21080b1b935ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2026-04-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、行政院經貿談判辦公室、經濟部、農業部、教育部就「美國貿易代表署發布《2026年各國貿易評估報告》（2026NTE）提及技術性貿易壁壘或食品安全檢驗與動植物防疫檢疫SPS）壁壘之豬肉、牛肉與牛肉產品、β促進劑的最大殘留容許量等各項食農相關產品及技術之要求，我國所承諾之措施、移除產品禁令或取消輸入口岸檢疫程序等，並特就其中開放切片馬鈴薯帶芽（或腐爛或發黴）仍能整批進口與其敦促撤銷基改食品進校園，對我國食品安全造成之衝擊與因應作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n\n邀請衛生福利部、農業部、行政院消費者保護處就「寵物用藥新制上路在即，犬貓及非經濟動物急重症醫療銜接、藥品流向管理、飼主取得可近性與消費權益保障之整體配套」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n\n【專題報告綜合詢答】）","type":"Full","date":"2026-04-15","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2026-04-15T08:39:13+08:00","end_time":"2026-04-15T15:05:00+08:00","duration":23147,"影片長度":"06:25:47","委員發言時間":"08:39:13 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26 NTE 提及技術性貿易壁壘或食品安全檢驗以動植物防疫檢疫SPS壁壘之豬肉牛肉與牛肉產品被打出禁忌的最大殘留容許量等各項使用相關產品及技術之要求"},{"start":1431.744,"end":1450.745,"text":"我國所承諾之措施 移除產品禁令或取消輸入口岸檢疫程序等並特就其中開放切片馬鈴薯 帶芽或腐爛或發霉仍能整併進口 與其敦促撤銷基改食品禁校園"},{"start":1452.006,"end":1466.147,"text":"對我國食品安全造成衝擊與因應作為進行專案報告並備諮詢二 邀請衛生福利部 農業部行政院消費者保護處就寵物用藥薪資上入債及犬貓及非經濟"},{"start":1467.689,"end":1494.719,"text":"動物及重症醫療銜接 藥品流向管理視主取得可敬信與消費權益保障這整體配套進行專案報告 並備諮詢這兩項專題我們採綜合訓導方式進行現在介紹在場官員及列席官員先介紹在場委員我們介紹李玉琴召委"},{"start":1497.577,"end":1523.808,"text":"王振旭委員賴慧玟委員不好意思沒有看到介紹最帥的劉建國委員衛生福利部部長石誠良食品藥物管理署署長江志剛國健署副署長林麗如"},{"start":1527.221,"end":1542.251,"text":"經貿談判辦公室執行秘書徐崇清消費者保護處副處長陳興宏國貿署主任秘書黃敬軒動資物防疫檢疫署署長杜力華國際事務司記者鍾明娟訓務司記者曾祐竹"},{"start":1556.519,"end":1562.443,"text":"教育部學情教育署署長彭沪元綜合規劃師專委呂鴻齡接下來請衛生福利部部長報告"},{"start":1578.704,"end":1594.061,"text":"主席還有各位委員今天陳大願邀請那麼就美國貿易代表署2026年各國貿易評估報告對我國生命安全所造成的可能衝擊及因應作為"},{"start":1594.702,"end":1622.514,"text":"以及寵物用藥新制這個藥品流向管理的整體配套等兩案提出報告以下做口頭的簡要說明請各位委員不吝指教那第一是有關於美國貿易代表署所發布的2026年各國貿易評估報告那麼裡面提到在豬肉牛肉以及牛肉產品還有以行促進器的最大殘留容許量等議題"},{"start":1626.617,"end":1634.923,"text":"有關這方面的議題,衛福部始終是以維護國人健康最大優先考量,在科學的證據下來對齊國際的標準跟規範。"},{"start":1641.608,"end":1654.502,"text":"這個採先的原則我們能量維持四大不變的原則第一個是對於比較敏感品項的禁令是不變的那麼包含在頭骨"},{"start":1656.584,"end":1684.936,"text":"腦、脊髓等等的國人較敏感的項目仍然維持禁止是進口的那第二個是原產地的標示是不變的包含不論是散裝或包裝的食品那麼以及飲食的場所都必須要標示牛肉原料的原產地所以這個標示是不變的那麼第三個在校園採購的部分管理不變那麼都維持這個在校園的營養午餐的部分維持"},{"start":1687.057,"end":1711.795,"text":"採購這個國產的牛豬肉優先那麼至於在基改的這個食品管理規定上呢也是不變的那麼仍然在這個校園裡面也不採購那麼第四個呢是整個食安的管理機制呢從源頭邊境到後市場的管理機制仍然維持不變那麼也會持續的維持呢赴美食地茶廠那麼依照風險"},{"start":1713.601,"end":1740.7,"text":"在這個邊境的查驗結果呢那麼訂出相對的風險跟這個抽樣的批數方式那麼還有在後市場的這個稽查抽驗等機制上那麼也都沒有放鬆那麼此外呢在這個牛肉或豬肉的萊克多巴胺的乙型受體劑的這個安全容許量的部分呢那麼我們市要署仍然會秉持著"},{"start":1742.242,"end":1747.127,"text":"科學證據對其國際標準的原則之下來召開會議專家討論之後來做適當的該有的因應第二案是有關於寵物用藥的新制針對動物用人藥的議題"},{"start":1764.465,"end":1779.171,"text":"秉持著以保護生命以及有效管理的兩個原則之下來跟農業部進行檢討所以對於目前已經公告的701項的可用於動物"},{"start":1782.652,"end":1795.863,"text":"使用的人用藥品那麼我們支持持續的維持現有的使用機制那麼得由藥商或者是藥局來供應獸醫師來做使用那麼"},{"start":1798.645,"end":1815.844,"text":"對於這個動物的用藥還有一些醫用氣體的提供跟管理我們會盡速來協助農業部來完整的做規劃包含流向的管理還有用藥的一些安全不濫用"},{"start":1816.405,"end":1841.827,"text":"那麼來確保這個整個藥品人用藥品的管理上沒有產生缺漏那麼透過這個持續性的跨部門合作來完備對毛小孩的保護那麼最後在食品這個整個食品安全的方面那麼就如同前面所報告的那麼我們會持續的關注相關的談判"},{"start":1843.128,"end":1861.044,"text":"結果的進行那麼也會秉持著守護國人健康最大的原則來作為因應那麼以上簡要說明再請各位委員指教那麼謝謝謝謝市部長現在請農業部動植物繁育檢疫署隊署長報告"},{"start":1870.903,"end":1898.013,"text":"主席各位委員還有與會的所有大眾各機關的首長大家好那接著由農業部來做報告那我是動植物防疫檢疫署的署長杜力華那首先先就我們針對這個美國貿易代表署發表的這個美國各國的這個貿易障礙的部分涉及到動物副產品也就是飼料用的牛血跟牛油以及加工用馬鈴薯的檢疫報告"},{"start":1898.993,"end":1927.766,"text":"那來跟各位來做報告那這裡說明一下在動物副產品方面那我首先說明公司要使用的牛血跟牛脂的一個產品那這部分已經列入到臺美的這個ART的這個條文裡面那我國也承諾對美國這個動物的這個副產品牛血牛脂不採取或維持任何不符合OVA的指引的一個措施那我首先先說明一下美國目前是OVA所認可的BSE風險可忽略的國家"},{"start":1928.486,"end":1951.563,"text":"那美國從2003年12月起12月加拿大移入的典型的BSE的案例以後它已經有20多年沒有發生典型的BSE的一個案例那雖然在其後有6個案例但都屬於牛脂老化自然機率發生的非典型的BSE的一個案例好 那針對飼料用的牛脂的一個進口"},{"start":1952.043,"end":1966.678,"text":"那依照歐法的這個國際規範跟我國的規範他非屬因實施動物檢疫的品項但是他進口的時候要向本部來申報輸入查驗的飼料登記那經查他在10到14年期間"},{"start":1967.499,"end":1992.529,"text":"那我國的飼料用的牛子都是由澳大利亞進來那沒有從美國進來的記錄那牛血的產品那從美國輸入他需要經過署裡面本署的這個審查的一個認證確保他沒有疫病傳播的風險後他才可以准許輸入那目前還沒有完成整個程序以前那美國的牛血產品還是不能夠輸入"},{"start":1994.602,"end":2017.632,"text":"那即便將來輸入以後也不能夠使用在牛羊鹿等反芻的一個動物的一個飼料那另外在加工馬鈴薯部分那過去我們訂定的只有一套叫做使用的使用的馬鈴薯的輸入檢疫的條件那因應這個一些貿易上的一個需求所以在今年的"},{"start":2019.213,"end":2025.236,"text":"2月份2月6號的時候我們已經公告實施美國產加工用馬鈴薯的輸入的一個檢疫的一個條件那當然在這個條件裡面我們不變的是8種病蟲害的管理的強度不變那同時也要求美方要強化在輸出前這個發芽劑的使用的程序那另外輸出上也要確認沒有發芽跟沒有突然然後美國在檢疫症方面也要宰明"},{"start":2048.609,"end":2051.453,"text":"該批的馬鈴薯僅供加工使用那輸入的時候當然依照我國的規定來進行相關的一個產業跟文件的以及建議的一個審核所以這個部分本部會持續依據國際的規範跟科學"},{"start":2066.052,"end":2069.815,"text":"這個風險的一個評估的原則然後審慎檢視而且滾動的檢討相關的這個防疫措施同時跟食品安全措施來做扣合那能夠回應委員跟各界的一個期待那另外我也針對最近的"},{"start":2084.164,"end":2100.653,"text":"這個人用藥用於犬貓跟非經濟動物的最新的一個經營跟各位委員來做報告那第一點就是我們也收集了各界的一個意見所以在原來的這個辦法裡面那也朝向要修正"},{"start":2101.333,"end":2121.339,"text":"修正從核准字改為公告字如此目前的701項或即便現在目前在預告中的31項也就變732項都可以從這個核准字變為公告字這是第一點第二個就是如果是在原辦法的修正的時候那麼也增加了一個"},{"start":2122.543,"end":2148.355,"text":"寄存備藥的制度那當然這個就可以解決急診或夜間有需求的時候那麼就可以來先讓獸醫院可以及時來做處理同時也免除四處奔波延誤黃金救援時間的問題那第三點就是標示的一個簡化那或許在過去從人用藥轉回動法用藥因為標籤等等的一個程序的一個複雜所以讓藥商卻步那針對"},{"start":2152.256,"end":2168.063,"text":"這個貼標的問題甚至有沒有簡易的用戳章來取代等等的彈性的這個作為那這個部分都目前都正往這個方向在做鬆綁的一個研議好那也大家最關心還是回到藥品流向的問題因為一個確確的原則從人品藥流到動保藥以後不能再回到人品藥所以對於後續藥品的流向的問題還有監管的"},{"start":2181.827,"end":2204.617,"text":"機制那這個部分都要同步搭配來做建立那當然最重要還是民眾最關心的如何確保他們取得藥品的便利性跟權益的保障那我本部的目標非常的清楚就是不增加事主的負擔為原則同時可以維持多元的公藥管道包括藥商供貨藥局購買或專案進口各種管道都可以並行"},{"start":2209.259,"end":2222.344,"text":"那當然我也要跟大家報告那各界的醫生各界的聲音我們都聽到了所以在4月10號由我們次長邀集衛福部跟相關的公協會的討論已經做出具體的結論是暫緩實施那在4月13號行政院也內部整個做討論那這個更進一步來做決策"},{"start":2235.451,"end":2249.922,"text":"會朝向採取註銷目前的管理辦法的方式來做進行那目前也正在進行中那第二個就是將目前公告的七零一項人用藥品作為動物保護藥品那這樣子就可以讓在過渡期間這個"},{"start":2257.432,"end":2276.332,"text":"這個獸醫師跟我們的這個獸醫院都可以直接有使用更寬廣的一個藥品的一個來源那昨天卓院長在大院跟各位委員報告的時候也有承諾在食物的問題尚未完全解決以前那寵物用藥心智不會有"},{"start":2277.032,"end":2291.441,"text":"實施的時間表那我們本部的部長也提出保證在新政的辦法還沒有實施的過渡期本部絕對會確保所有動物醫院的所有用藥需求得到滿足不會讓藥品出現短缺所以最後"},{"start":2294.483,"end":2311.39,"text":"我們本部要強調的是這套的制度的核心基石是保障動物的生命權跟醫療權我們一定會秉持審慎穩健的原則在所有的配套措施沒有到位溝通沒有充分權絕對不會衝出上路當然在過渡期間我們也會全力確保藥品的供應穩定而且會和衛福部獸醫師"},{"start":2322.409,"end":2334.73,"text":"受醫院藥師藥商等相關的團體密切的協調讓這一套的新的制度可以真正符合務實的一個需求也能夠順利運作 以上報告謝謝各位"},{"start":2335.63,"end":2364.808,"text":"謝謝杜署長現在開始詢答做一下宣告有關本次會議各項書面資料均列入紀錄刊登公報本會委員詢答時間6加2分鐘列席委員4加1分鐘10點半截止發言登記委員如果有書面諮詢請上會前提出預期不受理暫定10點半休息10分鐘原則上11點半處理臨時提案11點截止收案現在請登記第一位委員林月群召委發言"},{"start":2374.476,"end":2379.961,"text":"好 謝謝主席那麻煩我們的署長對話署長江志剛 不好意思江志剛署長"},{"start":2390.357,"end":2407.998,"text":"雙藻 因為最近我在社群上看到有便利商店來售一款日本進口的飲料那這瓶飲料標示一個叫做幫助減少內臟脂肪並且以這個為主要販售的訴求可依據我們的食品安全衛生管理法的第28條的第二項"},{"start":2409.682,"end":2436.705,"text":"食品不得為醫療效能的標示宣傳或廣告其實食藥署認定基準也非常的明確指出只要涉及到改善疾病或疾病相關生理的素質譬如脂肪或血脂那就屬於我們的醫療效能所以請問一下署長減少內臟脂肪這樣的標示在食藥署認定是不是也涉及到我們的醫療效能如果是的話為何這款還在市面上販售"},{"start":2438.8,"end":2458.855,"text":"謝謝委員的催旋有關於這個產品裡面不管這邊左邊的特水右邊的叫做醫幼胃門的比較濃味的那因為特別提到所謂的幫助減少內臟脂肪這件事情應該是已經是涉及或是改變所謂人體的器官生理組織跟外觀的功能這個"},{"start":2460.476,"end":2486.883,"text":"雖然說沒有涉及醫療的療效啦但是他已經違反了實驗法28條第一項裡面誇大醫生誤解的規定所以我們會同時按照45條裡面的裁罰大概4萬到400萬的罰款現在市面上還在販賣所以我需要再進一步問說那食藥署目前對於進口食品標示的審查機制為何像剛剛這個上一般來講你"},{"start":2488.55,"end":2506.145,"text":"已經標示出來了那你如果是支柱案那個實質審查還是僅形式上的審查及放行如果沒有一致的那個實質審查的話那就會導致到說有健康暗示甚至醫療效果用於就直接進入到市場影響消費者的判斷"},{"start":2508.243,"end":2525.11,"text":"這部分我們只要發現其實在52條裡面有一項是讓他們所謂的限期回收跟改正所以改正前時我們就不准許他們繼續販售如果持續是有違反我們的確一定會給予裁罰那予以沒入跟銷毀這是我們既定的"},{"start":2525.61,"end":2541.529,"text":"所以不論是在我們看到邊境或是後市場我們還是用同樣的原則來辦理如果產品的外包裝上面標示跟違反了剛剛有提到的食安法的第28條相關的我們食藥署跟地方政府已經邊境我們同時一定是積極的來做處理所以"},{"start":2543.11,"end":2570.941,"text":"這些誇大不實所謂會所謂減少內臟脂肪的都牽涉到比較誇大的一個宣稱這我們一定會積極的所以我這邊是要要求衛福部應該全面檢討我們的進口食品標示管理的機制處理原則建立一致的標準不管國內外的產品只要涉及到醫療效能或類似健康效果宣稱的話就應該要適用相同的那個審查標準所以"},{"start":2571.403,"end":2593.31,"text":"署長是不是可以願意來針對此類的產品啟動全面的檢討對 我們持續針對這個標示的部分不實或者是會發大不實或者一身誤解那一個月內是不是可以就提出具體的管理跟改善對 我們持續來做我們又會把相關的目前的措施跟接下來可以更加強的來去做巡查好 謝謝署長 請請回接下來我們請時部長請時部長"},{"start":2599.535,"end":2616.143,"text":"早上上週有幾則新聞都讓我感覺到非常的難過一個是台中有強制猥褻前科的教練被判刑那另外一個事實上是台北市的語言治療師涉嫌到對兒童猥褻及性侵"},{"start":2616.983,"end":2642.199,"text":"那這些案子都有一個共同點就是加害者都長期處在一個可接觸到孩子的位置尤其事實上原治療師他本身就是跟孩子接觸那媽媽還以為是說這是療程那為什麼家長不知道這是是否是療程因為過去我在民間有處理過在找療單位事實上對孩子進行額面那他的辨識也是說這事實上是療程所以部長可不可以說明一下對目前對這個案子的掌握狀況是什麼"},{"start":2643.66,"end":2666.596,"text":"日前我們都是這樣一旦有這樣的訊息都是醫事師直接會發函衛生局都暫停醫事人員的臨床業務在調查期間就先暫停來完備後續的調查跟可能要一副懲戒或者是依法要提起起訴的這些過程當中"},{"start":2669.518,"end":2683.671,"text":"對 部長這是事後啦我覺得事前是不是可以做一些比較防堵的因為過去我們自己在處理不當對待很常這樣的辯解都說特殊孩子的需求而去做什麼樣的一個療程而以至於要做這樣的行為可是"},{"start":2684.221,"end":2703.07,"text":"事實上最後的見解並不是這樣那個基本上都是不當對待所以我的意思說是不是應該讓家長能夠去知道這是我覺得在預防否則就是你們要提出更進一步的改善措施是怎麼讓家長知道因為今天如果醫生在看診的時候基本上都會有一個人在"},{"start":2703.73,"end":2725.733,"text":"裡面是去做這樣的一個監督那更何況事實上是早療的孩子那他甚至家長在外邊聽到這樣子的一個狀態的時候他還是以為是療程那有沒有清楚的做說明我希望這部分是不是可以提供相關的理論上孩子在接受治療的過程當中都有家屬或家長的陪伴可是他們是在外邊"},{"start":2726.493,"end":2745.746,"text":"而且這樣也誤以為這是療程因為是在外邊所以這部分還是要請你們把這個怎麼去積極作為提供我們來瞭解一下就是說如果在治療的過程當中需要隔離 單獨相處的時候就做出一些規範我認為那個並不是常態啦多數還是都是有家長跟家屬的那來 部長這"},{"start":2753.078,"end":2780.637,"text":"像剛剛這則新聞的話當然如果違法當然就會公佈在我們的醫事人員的性別事件的資訊專區那這是民國112年的《性平三法》當中修正通過的首設者專區根據你們的網站說明只要涉及到性別事件的刑事訴訟跟刑事訴訟裁判書我們就可以通過專區看到這個不適任的醫事人員部長目前這個醫事人員的性別事件的資訊專區除了刑事訴訟跟"},{"start":2782.638,"end":2808.235,"text":"行政訴訟裁判書還有什麼途徑可以對接到這個醫事人員的性別專區我們目前採用的除了公開的這個裁判書之外還包含了在衛生局醫事懲戒委員會或者是相關藥事也有懲戒委員會那麼懲戒委員會裡面做出的懲戒如果做出懲戒結果我們也會PO在這個上面那另外現在也在借接那個CRC專區啦"},{"start":2809.616,"end":2838.599,"text":"就是如果是涉及到那個兒童的這個相關事件不過部長我今天是還要問一個比較進一步的問題就是說因為我要強調一個重點如何縮短從事件發生到披露的時間點像我剛剛前面講的那個事實上是議員揭露的那個時間點時間差事實上是對我來講是最在意的如果我們設想一個問題如果正名語言治療師沒有被羈押也沒有被我們的黃淑君議員揭露的話那正名語言治療師"},{"start":2839.299,"end":2856.158,"text":"就會持續在職業接觸而燒那就會有下一個受害者所以我整個看這個流程首先是司法判決司法判決的時間的漏洞跟缺口是什麼因為一定要三審定驗嗎不用只要他有判決書就會上來問題來了"},{"start":2857.68,"end":2887.02,"text":"只要一審就可以可是一審呢要自己是你們衛福部要自己去撈資料來放專區那就會有這個量的問題因為為什麼這樣子一筆一筆的去核對一筆一筆的看你覺得這個時間差不會產生時間差嗎這當然我們同仁做得很辛苦啦我們本來一直在請求這個司法院的協助啦但是這個到目前為止他都只是提供他只願意"},{"start":2887.94,"end":2908.136,"text":"逐批次的提供檔案然後我們在裡面自己撈啦所以我們現在就是這個透過用AI開發這個AI的技術來協助用人工搜尋的方式所以現在時間有縮短嗎或者是應該講說怎麼去縮短因為我們現在制度沒有即時通報只能被動搜尋的話我相信"},{"start":2909.277,"end":2928.088,"text":"這個時間差因為都是在搶時間不要讓孩子再暴露在風險當中那樣子的狀況所以我希望能夠持續精進縮短時間差像你剛剛講要求衛福部應該跟司法院去建立直接的通報機制一旦只要一審判決的話認定有罪"},{"start":2928.632,"end":2943.954,"text":"判決書一公開就要能夠主動連結到醫事人員性別平等的那個資訊專區我們不是等衛福部去查這個真的有時間如果孩子還暴露在這風險上我們國家何以去面對甚至我們事實上是有兒圈公約國內法化的一個國家"},{"start":2945.376,"end":2959.454,"text":"所以我認為一審就應該開始去做這些事情不是那我不知道說這樣子的一個建議部長能不能做到我來努力我們這邊會要求司法院所以再拜託"},{"start":2961.316,"end":2977.989,"text":"最後接下來就是第二個問題就是除了司法判決行政調查你剛剛也講說有一個管道就是你們會登錄有刊登在地方公報的呃懲戒的決議書好可是我仔細看了衛福部性平專區的18項類別裡面當然醫師啊藥師啊也有語言治療師可是部長這你知道這18個類別當中有幾個類別是有懲戒制度的嗎"},{"start":2984.559,"end":3006.352,"text":"不是所有的醫師都有懲戒只有醫師跟藥師有而已 因為他們在過去立法的時間前後不一還有這個他當時候的這個認為那麼所以如果這是發生的這個案子就不會啊就少了一個這個公務人員的一個途徑所以我覺得部長這邊是不是可以全面檢視現有專區的類別是不是都有懲戒的這個"},{"start":3009.553,"end":3034.311,"text":"這個途徑所以我們要做的是是不是可以把漏洞都補上因為把所有的時間差縮短填補之後然後讓我們的孩子不會持續在暴露在風險當中希望部長一個月內一樣好我來把它全面再盤點一下好謝謝部長好謝謝委員謝謝林詠璇在委謝謝市部長接下來請陳金輝委員發言質詢"},{"start":3041.831,"end":3049.364,"text":"謝謝主席 謝謝各位委員還有官員 下一位我想請石部長還有杜署長請石崇良部長 杜立華署長好 委員早"},{"start":3054.848,"end":3071.92,"text":"謝謝部長跟署長我想你們也注意到了4月10號你們在開會的時候外面有非常多這個爸爸媽媽帶他們的毛小孩直播看著你們的開會那我今天想問這一兩週引起這麼多的軒然大波有這麼多人在網路上發文串聯"},{"start":3072.74,"end":3088.329,"text":"造成這一次這麼大的爭議還有民怨最大的問題是你們所公布的這個管理辦法不夠貼近東吳的臨床醫療那兩位是不是覺得這樣子7月1號貿然公布要上路兩位是否要為此而道歉呢"},{"start":3091.102,"end":3108.218,"text":"跟委員說明這個事實上是起源在102年的時候那麼一個檢舉案件開始那麼主要是涉及到這個藥事法裡面關於人用藥品"},{"start":3108.618,"end":3125.705,"text":"的使用有一些規定供應也有一些限制那麼才引發這樣在這個人用藥品流到這個動物用藥它的使用安全跟管理那麼才經過很多次的討論之後訂出這個使用管理辦法"},{"start":3126.805,"end":3150.471,"text":"當然這個那麼久之前這個又是兩年多以前那麼根據很多的團體大家一起討論出來的結果那麼結果在過去這兩年當中呢並沒有反應那麼到了最近才反應出來我也覺得訝異那不過呢我們還是及時的因應我懂了所以你覺得最近大家在網路上吵得沸沸揚揚你覺得很訝異不需要道歉"},{"start":3151.763,"end":3175.341,"text":"這個不是道歉不道歉的問題這個是我們要回應到實際上的第一線的需要沒關係沒關係我們就是要一個答案而已因為可能很多關心這個議題的人也會看在眼裡啦那剛剛署長講得很清楚署長說到說主任長也關心這個議題所以現在是暫緩那我們想知道說4月10號你正式的會議記錄公文到底什麼時候會發出來這個暫緩的公文那你們現在暫緩想要壓多久"},{"start":3180.765,"end":3194.435,"text":"多久的時間是一年兩年還是三年因為聽起來剛才時務長說經過兩年充分的討論結果這麼多人還是民怨沸騰你感到訝異嗎所以我想知道你下一次是要押多久"},{"start":3196.268,"end":3210.579,"text":"謝謝陳委員我首先先說明一下人用藥轉為保用藥那在過去來講確實是沒有一個有需求但是沒有個合法的一個位階所以這件事情一定是要正式而且去解決它那11302月26號的這個的辦法其實也是從104年開始"},{"start":3215.763,"end":3233.221,"text":"其實署長不好意思打斷你我也只是要問你說你們開會的結論什麼時候會出來然後你預計暫緩多久在4月10號的下午的時候我們就已經彙整了有逐字稿跟我們的重點的一個摘錄那所以說都已經開始依照我們的公文的程序在做呈報"},{"start":3234.082,"end":3250.02,"text":"那在這段時間 整個簽報准了以後其實對外就可以來轉送至少我想各界尤其開會的相關的利害關係的團體都收得到會議紀錄不用到那麼久 這兩天應該就會那裡面你們是壓暫緩多久"},{"start":3256.396,"end":3273.124,"text":"這個現在是逐一針對這個問題來做討論那現在有一個更新的版本就是這個的辦法直接用註銷那註銷以後用一個更確切實際的內容辦法跟合乎法規的位階"},{"start":3275.025,"end":3292.266,"text":"來做替代 你的意思是說你們決定要把它註銷這件事情大概多久以內有可能會發生我想也是在這兩天因為昨天 還要再開一次會其實不管行政院或是雙部長都相當重視這件事情所以大概都已經定案了"},{"start":3292.706,"end":3312.969,"text":"那現在就是針對這個註銷公文的文稿內容那等雙方確認以後對外就可以公告了所以等於是說你們兩個部門你們要再重新想出一個方法不用已經大致大致已經內容確認註銷以後你還是有要新的聽起來你們還是要有新的管理辦法是是是對"},{"start":3313.59,"end":3335.321,"text":"那這個就會針對所有的收集各界的意見都會有針對這個來做處理那今天我們就稍微今天我們就稍微跟您兩位探討還有整理一下最近各界的意見那這個是今天我們拿到的報告也就是農業部提出來的他說臨床動物治療長期存在需要使用人類的藥物人用的藥品嗎"},{"start":3336.301,"end":3364.571,"text":"那現行藥施法規定動物診療機構並非人用藥物供應對象所以獸醫師臨床上雖有用藥需求缺合法的供應管道那因為藥施法的限制導致藥品供應中斷影響動物的醫療這個也是剛剛石部長有講到的所以我們就來探討其中的三條可能最相關的第六條它當然是對於藥品的定義所以它定義出什麼叫做人用藥品嘛"},{"start":3365.051,"end":3374.576,"text":"第三三條他是規定說可以賣給誰那裡面就排除掉了這些跟動物相關的機構第五十條是在講誰可以調劑誰可以開處方這邊也沒有規範到有這個獸醫診療的機構所以這三項規就出來"},{"start":3382.941,"end":3406.648,"text":"就會引發剛剛杜署長所講的也是杜署長報告裡面講的空有這個急診深夜偏鄉醫用氣體注射劑等等供應情況取藥不便延誤動物的救治所以也有蠻多聲音導向說是不是要修藥事法這邊要請石部長給予您這邊的意見我的意見就是不宜不宜"},{"start":3408.108,"end":3424.38,"text":"在動保法這個動物保護法裡面寫得很清楚第4條他就提到在動物用藥不足的時候才以人用藥品補充之所以他是分流的那麼再從藥事法來看所有的規範都是在人用藥品這些藥品的開發是根據"},{"start":3427.323,"end":3438.705,"text":"人體的結構生理以及這個病理學的基礎之下所開發出來的並不是為動物設計所以從兩個法的基本精神來看"},{"start":3439.815,"end":3469.16,"text":"人用藥品用於動物只是不得已之措施我等一下跟您講一下世界上其他國家怎麼做但因為這個是農業部提出來的報告所以我現在也想要請杜署長講一下因為剛才石部長針對您提出來的報告您有提到說這是藥事法的限制但石部長認為說不宜修改藥事法這邊我想請問農業部的意見好 謝謝委員我首先先說明一下剛剛我們所討論的架構都是在原來的辦法之下"},{"start":3469.625,"end":3495.391,"text":"所以有它這個緊縮的一個地方所以可能要尋求到依照這個藥事法的相關的精神如何解就一定有一定的程序出來但現在我們討論的一個方向也就是說以目前過渡時期來講動物區的701項人品人用藥轉到動物用藥這個的部分就是可以用的這個部分那如果說"},{"start":3496.351,"end":3512.161,"text":"可以克服到藥事法第50條的束縛那我們就往這個方向來做處理就不一定要就是衛福部有困難的修法的部分就不一定來在藥事法第一條就寫得很清楚"},{"start":3513.061,"end":3531.962,"text":"那麼如果其他法律有規定者從其法律之規定所以藥事法是完整的規範人用藥品的製造、供應、使用所以這是一個完整的人藥管理所以動物用藥如果有不足要用人藥的部分要回到動物保護法去做規範我先跟你講一下"},{"start":3535.266,"end":3553.6,"text":"這個問題並不是只有我們遇到這個其他國家有遇到那為什麼我們今天要來討論就是因為因應台灣的小子化超高齡化還有單身率等等的所以未來啊單身的人或是長者但是他有一個陪伴動物會非常非常的"},{"start":3554.827,"end":3557.551,"text":"不罕見就是常常會有這樣子的狀況所以對他們而言也許這個急診這個半夜需要就醫的需求一定會有的那這個需求你現在只會越來越大而已所以你必須要正面去面對它那我們來看這些都知道了因為農業部的報告都寫了"},{"start":3572.79,"end":3595.902,"text":"你現在遇到的問題就是急救住院短缺這些藥品藥商的登錄意願低剛有講到了你現在登錄就只有兩成標示包裝跟成本問題這個業者不願意去承擔這個我們也可以理解因為其他國家也有發生還有偏鄉罕病藥物難取得然後還有石部長很關心的這個流向管理啊臨床效率啊等等等等的"},{"start":3597.183,"end":3620.799,"text":"那我們就來看一下這邊想告訴您的是這個世界上都有這樣子的問題可是您剛說到的人用藥物大部分都已經經過動物實驗了所以允許人用藥在動物身上不管是美國歐盟或是日本就是這樣子那美國他們怎麼做他們就是把陪伴動物跟經濟動物分開如果你是經濟動物的話他會列舉一些藥物擔心這個藥品殘留嘛這個也是農業部可能會擔心的"},{"start":3627.363,"end":3642.612,"text":"但是在這個陪伴動物的話他們就沒有這樣子的嚴格他們是採負面表列他們會尊重然後相信獸醫師在治療陪伴動物有高度專業所以他們負面表列就給他們彈性的空間然後尊重那"},{"start":3643.192,"end":3669.257,"text":"世界上多數國家都是就是兩位都很懂就是off label use標籤外使用人用藥來治療動物還有經濟動物等等的所以石部長剛講的你一定要所有人都去登記成動物用藥其他國家他也沒有辦法做到他現在大部分的國家就是七成就是人用藥單純動物用藥就占三成先進國家的常態的藥物分布比例就是這樣子好那如果"},{"start":3670.237,"end":3694.622,"text":"署長部長很在意這個抗生素抗藥性等等的日本他就設計說日本的獸醫抗藥抗生素耐藥性的監控機制他規定所有的這些獸醫師不管你是治療經濟動物或是陪伴動物都一定要去回報使用的狀況來讓主管機關建立統計資料庫瞭解這個使用的狀況避免抗藥性那我已經告訴你"},{"start":3695.282,"end":3710.59,"text":"其他國家是這樣子做了所以最後具體也請您再回應一下這幾個建議都是從這個很多專家學者或是團體他們整理出來的第一個你應該是拒絕嗎調整藥師法這個沒有這個必要剛剛提到只要從"},{"start":3716.432,"end":3740.606,"text":"這個動保法的相關的規定去修正就可以供藥所以這個沒有問題所以不需要去修藥事法這樣這個邏輯上會那你們現在的管理辦法因為你說你們有可能要把它暫停再出一版新的你們新的會參考這些意見嗎比如說把正便保驗改成負面保驗我想委員所提到的這些農業部都收集了足夠的這些相關的資訊他們會盡快的來嚴定那我們會積極來協助農業部訂定"},{"start":3746.577,"end":3773.638,"text":"對 那你現在要改的就農業部啊 他的報告寫到三到六點你三到六點你要怎麼處理這個都是農業部會去訂出來的那我們這邊只是做協助去強化把我們過去的人用藥品的管理規定的經驗提供給這個農業部然後兩邊的系統去串接避免這個人用藥品的管理出現漏失那農業部這邊回應一下"},{"start":3775.139,"end":3780.226,"text":"謝謝委員 因為原來的報告是在之前就提供可是在這兩天的時候 應該有變對 因為政策的定已經拍板定案那都朝向你整個解決就是原來的這個法規註銷然後重新制定一個更貼切"},{"start":3790.382,"end":3794.764,"text":"那這些原先這個所擔心不管是市主或是公約所擔心的問題我們檢視出來應該都已經獲得解決了所以我們繼續把這個新的一個版本那你新的版本你可以稍微預告一下您新的版本最大的變革會如何我覺得在於目前來講的話大概"},{"start":3811.251,"end":3834.847,"text":"從藥商跟藥局的供應還是雙軌那藥商的部分已經由原來的144項已經可以提高到701項了那當然日後這個滾動階段還會再調升所以基本上所有的用藥乃至於特殊的用藥都有他的平台跟管道可以來做出所以你的意思是說未來藥品登入會到700多項那你還需要你原本在報告中提到的寄存備藥基金"},{"start":3835.707,"end":3855.52,"text":"是所以這個基準原來是在原來辦法的架構之下那要有一個突破點但現在這個註銷以後那就沒有所謂的基準問題因為藥商可以直接供貨給我們的獸醫院跟獸醫師可以來做用藥好那我們再來未來就期待你新的管理辦法版本謝謝署長請署長請回座請部長跟江署長"},{"start":3862.059,"end":3875.49,"text":"好好下次好謝謝那我們先回座因為劉昭偉好謝謝委員謝謝陳金輝委員發言現在請劉建國委員質詢好謝謝主席請部長還有那個房間署署長劉委員早請市部長讓江雙休息"},{"start":3892.709,"end":3918.899,"text":"這其實今天委員會感謝召我特別排這個專案報告基本上就是因為這個戰友是從經濟委員會延燒到衛航委員會那兩個主體不一樣兩個現在你看一個是部長一個是其他農業部的署長在這邊講相關的這個人類用藥跟動物用藥基本上就已經有邏輯上的一個衝突了然後113你去訂定的這個相關的管理辦法最終農業部"},{"start":3920.578,"end":3938.47,"text":"面對這麼多的毛爸毛媽的這樣的一個抗議然後藥局的反彈然後獸醫師的沒辦法得到正確的未來執行的一個方式哪有一個行政機關組織機關定的辦法經過兩年的洗禮兩年的討論兩年的多方的這樣的接觸最終最終要把它廢掉"},{"start":3948.154,"end":3951.636,"text":"那怎麼會 現場 現場表決是不是次長 署長 對不起不好意思你們的次長是用舉手表決把你們訂了公告兩年多的辦法"},{"start":3971.618,"end":3982.323,"text":"要把它延期那延期不代表問題解決對不對那你現在剛剛因為我坐在台下聽到你講的這個半島廢掉了你們要趕快"},{"start":3984.237,"end":4012.633,"text":"這是延期喔你們市長講是延期你說要把它廢掉然後要再另立另訂新法新的辦法出來嘛對不對報告委員是註銷因為沒有實施不能用廢紙好啦註銷反正就是不見了啦簡單講就這樣嘛然後你說會訂定新的辦法出來對不對是的多久再兩年我想然後兩年完之後再用舉手表決再把它註銷"},{"start":4014.344,"end":4036.956,"text":"還是一年然後如果又緩談然後再把它註銷不過實際上是這樣報告委員確實這兩年的改變真的非常大那你那天有沒有在現場我有在現場這兩年改變有多大這兩年有疫情因為這兩年有非洲豬瘟這兩年導致你們這個辦法基本上要透過海珍民族"},{"start":4037.611,"end":4061.607,"text":"透過這樣的一個表決方式來註銷那天是延期啦 你是現在直接在這邊宣布是註銷喔你跟次長講好了嗎 跟部長講好了嗎這個辦法就註銷 還是公告註銷還是當天就註銷了報告委員 這個真的是社會關注的當然是社會關注 今天才招委才排這個委員會嘛那你們註銷時間是什麼時候你們註銷時間是什麼時候我們應該這兩天會完成相關的公告程序"},{"start":4067.191,"end":4090.028,"text":"所以我們的速度也相當快,也符合大家的關注跟期待你們的速度沒有相當快,速度相當快就不會搞到兩年之後你們是113年2月26號訂的你們是預計今年的7月要施行嘛對不對然後才會有這麼大的一個爭論嘛然後你們現在是延期,然後你講說要註銷了程序還沒有找到註銷,但是你們是朝向註銷嘛是的"},{"start":4092.563,"end":4103.178,"text":"那你叫毛爸毛媽然後獸醫師還有藥師如果信賴你們你們在短期之內可以訂定一個新的辦法然後大家對這個辦法的內容"},{"start":4104.54,"end":4130.74,"text":"是大家都可以接受的那如果是大家都可以接受的為什麼在7月1號上路之前為什麼不趕快去做調整修正在既有的你們已經在成案然後這個管理辦公告的過程裡面去做調整去做修正哪有你們自己訂的東西然後7月1號上路然後用人民表決之後然後再延期然後現在你又宣布註銷然後你又要認定心理的辦法"},{"start":4135.134,"end":4146.062,"text":"我聽不懂 因為我在台口 我怎麼聽得懂我怎麼聽得懂 怎麼會有這樣一個政府在做面對這種事情的處理方式是如此的粗糙沒關係 那你現在再答我 祝蕭"},{"start":4151.897,"end":4173.613,"text":"要再訂出新的一個草案出來嘛對不對一個辦法辦法 對辦法嘛 對就是草案還是一個還沒有完成之前就是草案嘛對不對然後我們跟衛福部會會嫌然後在討論的過程中現在大概都已經有聚焦因為方向一直 衛福部為什麼要可以討論因為我們是會嫌公佈使用的是人用藥所以一定是會嫌來公佈"},{"start":4174.914,"end":4194.478,"text":"所以也是部長剛剛已經講得很清楚嘛他就是對啊要設法規範就是人類的用藥啊是對那你的動物用藥他為什麼要跟你溝通那你如果可以溝通為什麼你們不進場溝通我們應該你們為什麼之前就不溝通好你們為什麼要留在這個法註銷之後還可以溝通"},{"start":4194.963,"end":4214.122,"text":"第一個 我們是依照法規啦 也就是說 要是我這條藥品 販賣業者不得兼受農藥動物用藥品或其他毒性化學物質所以要先 報告 報告委員就是 你們其他任務不修不是 不是 那個我要再讓我完整說明一下就是其實這個辦法之前也是依照動物保護法第四條第三條"},{"start":4214.842,"end":4243.217,"text":"向的一個規定所延伸出來那這個因為使用到人用藥所以一定是要會嫌衛福部畢竟衛福部是我們的人用藥的主管機關而且在於人用藥這塊的管理已經數十年非常的穩健成熟那現在有很多的藥劑要轉為東寶用藥當然一定要有這個衛福部食藥署一起共同大家來做討論市長你多說了嘛你們的辦法名稱你要不要唸一次給大家聽"},{"start":4244.315,"end":4267.713,"text":"就人用藥 藥品對 用於犬貓及非經濟動物的管理辦法對 要訂這個辦法的時候對 要訂這個辦法不管母啊 豬啊 不管有沒有跟衛生部溝通過有啊 一定有嘛這個就是這樣子有一定的脈絡下來已經溝通過了嘛 對不對而且是從104年開始就不斷的溝通所以到112年的時候有三次的預告"},{"start":4274.258,"end":4286.357,"text":"整個法規是有三次預告三次預告才成行所以切一號要執行嘛對不對他兩年緩衝期對嘛對嘛原本就都三次的預告之後然後切一號執行嘛對不對然後上個禮拜五用表決"},{"start":4289.662,"end":4313.385,"text":"我應該這樣講是說 說延後嘛那你現在來委會說註銷嘛我沒有聽錯嘛不對嘛這個中間都有跟衛福部溝通嘛對嘛啊你現在要再怎麼溝通你把這個法廢掉之後你要再怎麼跟衛福部溝通 經濟改變了時空改變了我還有一點時間那你跟部長可以溝通一下嘛你們再定一個新的一個草案出來然後部長願意接受的話我們籌"},{"start":4315.645,"end":4339.188,"text":"這個差異在什麼地方在你們這個辦法的第幾條 第一條 第二條 第三條 第五條絕對會提出一個更妥適的辦法所以就代表你們這兩年多來公告了這個法律就是不妥適嘛不是不妥適 而是時空背景兩年之下就是不妥適嘛 什麼叫時空背景 兩年而已啊這兩年 另外有疫情 這兩年還是叫非洲豬瘟"},{"start":4341.6,"end":4346.061,"text":"這兩年時空背景差在什麼地方這兩年時空背景部長換人了人事物更動了所以時空背景不一樣了你繼續說清楚啊我今天是要突顯一個點啦"},{"start":4361.636,"end":4390.171,"text":"公告三次企業要實施最終預告三次預告三次最終企業要上路然後再上禮拜五現場與會的專家學者教授團體的代表毛爸媽媽舉手表決不同意好就延期你現在還宣布說直接這個辦法註銷然後要跟衛生部可以溝通要定出一個更好的"},{"start":4392.02,"end":4404.472,"text":"復活現在時空背景的辦法我們是立法機關兩年的立法時空背景不一樣你要跟我講差在什麼地方 簡單就好 時間到了"},{"start":4405.834,"end":4431.696,"text":"差在什麼地方你訂定了一個新的辦法跟現在你們要促銷這個辦法因時空背景的差異差在什麼地方簡單講一下就好好如果我這個政策的推動上在針對毛小孩不管他將來的意義你還是沒有講重點啊是部長不一樣了還是署長不一樣了我想這個不是意義人事物嘛時空背景講到是人事物嘛我們要解決的事還是市市的部分你講一下"},{"start":4437.125,"end":4462.005,"text":"還是誤得不能講一項你通通講不出來啊我們還是務實的要解決這個問題當然是務實啊 總不務實你們非常務實啊你們變個辦法是在讓相關的團體像讓所有的爸爸媽媽還有這些數位式的代表這個要事的代表用現場表決的多數不同意實施那就照這樣延期然後你今天來講註銷"},{"start":4464.469,"end":4493.066,"text":"然後你會訂更好的一個方法出來辦法出來我就聽不太懂所以我才會那可不可以就是我們會快速的來處理這個問題那也會一個禮拜快速對應該是一個禮拜以後我不是說訂辦法而是相關的程序對各界呼應最重要的這個一個的期待的部分我想我們都可以來做最快是什麼時候嘛"},{"start":4494.106,"end":4513.134,"text":"如果支銷的話應該是在這幾天應該如果是拍板定案應該就就會對外界的公告也就是說這個辦法不會實施那不會實施就不會有現在所產生的這一些的問題包括夜間包括你你事主要自行到要舉一次購買"},{"start":4514.494,"end":4530.182,"text":"一次性 一支性 然後一個的這樣的一個束縛還有標籤的束縛 那還有這些像譬如說氧氣桶氧氣桶的供應的問題等等這些實務上的問題大概都可以獲得解決應該署長你來要叫做有備而來"},{"start":4535.445,"end":4557.637,"text":"但是我覺得你們有備而來,反而會讓我覺得你們已經前面捅了一個窟窿這麼大了,然後這麼大的一個讓外界對政府訂定的相關的這樣的一個管理辦法,是用一個表決方式來讓它一語延期之後,然後又要再訂定一個新的辦法,然後到現在,"},{"start":4558.898,"end":4577.167,"text":"講的是會更加周全因為施工背景不一樣所以原有的辦法裡面主動的願意把它廢棄掉把它註銷掉但是你還是一樣沒有辦法答覆委員會說那你新的辦法的範疇內容到底跟衛務部的溝通會不會更加的順暢"},{"start":4578.227,"end":4592.079,"text":"然後迎刃而起的是在第幾條裡面的範圍是已經跟衛務部還有相關的單位相關的團體代表都已經溝通了所以訂這個辦法之後預告應該可以很盡快的就來做這個程序上的動作"},{"start":4593.74,"end":4613.816,"text":"報告委員我剛剛應該答覆的內容是肯定的也就是說剛剛所講說兩部之間的溝通的會議朝向的方向解決的目標其實這個都已經有快速的凝聚共識了所以我們就可以往這個更周延的辦法那我就最後聽你一句話就好你的快速是多快速一個禮拜兩個禮拜三個禮拜"},{"start":4622.97,"end":4648.619,"text":"好 謝謝主席謝謝劉建國委員的諮詢謝謝石部長 杜署長謝謝委員現在請王玉明委員諮詢好 謝謝主席我們是不是有請部長跟房檢署的署長好 請石部長署長王委員長"},{"start":4651.642,"end":4669.534,"text":"部長早這個我還是延續剛剛委員大家在關心的有關於動物用藥的這個問題因為我聽到你們回覆前面幾位委員我現在有幾個問題想要理清第一個現在的這個公告的辦法一定會註銷對不對就這兩天"},{"start":4672.441,"end":4693.966,"text":"就是一定會註銷讓他失效就應該說目前這個農業部依照動保法第四條第三項所公告的這個管理辦法會先取消然後再嚴定一個更周延那這個空窗期就是會確保所有的動物用藥都沒有問題對那他引用的是是什麼"},{"start":4694.406,"end":4721.392,"text":"用動保法第四條第二項的規定因為在這個動保法第四條第二項就已經明定了這個當動物用藥不足的時候那麼獸醫師得以使用人用藥品那麼意思就是說既然可以使用那麼藥品的供應就不應該斷這個有障礙反正我們學衆的後面的點是在這個藥品的安全管理上面"},{"start":4722.096,"end":4743.573,"text":"那這樣還有需要再重新公告一個辦法嗎如果把辦法註銷回到動保法之後那公要也無語還需要再另訂新辦法嗎有 因為在這個動保法第4條第3條明訂那麼前項這些人用藥品怎麼樣用到這個動物身上的相關的使用管理規定它要由主管機關定制"},{"start":4744.113,"end":4770.435,"text":"你們現在沒有訂的情況底下不是反而是你要上路之後才引發問題沒有上路反而是沒有問題你現在是這樣子應該是這樣講就是說在過去一段時間本來已經在農業部訂的這個授權辦法裡面那麼有提到這個相關的人用藥品要用到動物上面的時候他要經過一些行政程序比如說他怎麼樣成為一個動物保護用藥"},{"start":4772.917,"end":4792.014,"text":"那麼他的這個申請程序登錄程序是什麼等等那麼但是呢這個程序上可能要再更簡化因為目前所公告的701項這個得用於動物的人用藥品裡面只有這個200多項按照這個辦法來"},{"start":4794.055,"end":4814.863,"text":"這個申請登錄為動物保護用藥所以還因為一旦成為動物保護用藥的時候藥商就可以直接供應在這個辦法裡面是這樣子定所以就會產生另外還有將近500種的藥品是沒有辦法從藥商直接供應造成剛剛說到取得上的一些不方便性所以這個"},{"start":4816.084,"end":4826.756,"text":"這個部分包含這個如何成為動物保護用藥的程序如何簡化輔導那麼另外在使用上如何流向的管理去強化這個是關鍵那你們兩個部會已經有共識了嗎"},{"start":4830.52,"end":4855.046,"text":"有個初步的共識我剛剛提到的就是我們一些初步的共識所以辦法就是新的辦法公告之後可以確保這七百零一項藥品不會經過冗長的行政程序而且也不用再去登記它直接就會被公告變成是動物用藥嗎我們是朝這個對我們朝這個方向對朝這個方向去就直接公告它就是動物保護藥那你們現在還有什麼問題是沒有處理的沒有共識的"},{"start":4858.068,"end":4862.067,"text":"如果有也可以很快就修正辦法不是直接就上路就好了嗎"},{"start":4863.788,"end":4889.954,"text":"這個真正進行的行政程序是房檢署來進行我知道那你們現在到底還有什麼問題沒有解關鍵就是這701項用藥讓他更快速的直接公告變成是動物用藥嗎不是嗎那你們還有什麼細節或是行政的作業是兩個部會現在喬不定的還需要商議的如果沒有最少這個辦法可以很快速的公告來局長你說謝謝委員"},{"start":4892.267,"end":4906.514,"text":"因為原來在這個制度設計的時候其中有一項就是人用藥那你經過登錄以後轉為東寶用藥那以目前為止的話我們即便廣度的去邀他但也只有144項然後只有216件"},{"start":4908.715,"end":4913.376,"text":"那現在的701項如果直接轉為動保用藥那當然我們可以快速來處理這個問題但他的背後有藥證的大概1萬多張所以他可能是會一個爆量那爆量這不僅僅問題是後續假設這1萬多間的藥證701項的話這些我們都要對接到食藥署的相關的資訊那我才有辦法做"},{"start":4933.661,"end":4961.223,"text":"他的這個紀錄跟流向的管控那如果說這一些我們都沒有辦法掌握的話那麼即便衝出上路了但是會回到那個流向的管理上會失控所以一定要確保我們在後續的這一些都要對接好了我們再上路所以容我們有一點時間跟食藥署把這一些的資料庫整個重新建檔然後依照我們要求他填報的"},{"start":4962.544,"end":4983.317,"text":"資料品項欄位等等都對接清楚所以我們現在已經往這個大方向在做執行了那你需要多少時間你這個新的辦法你們這樣的一個對接還需要多少時間因為那一天開會的時候那部長這邊也也都允諾有共識說這個資料會讓我們來對接所以我們會最快的時間來跟他對接最快是多快我們也希望說能夠最"},{"start":4990.366,"end":5000.853,"text":"其實也跟委員報告就是說我們這個誰能回答這一題 來 食藥署署長要回答是不是"},{"start":5003.107,"end":5024.612,"text":"我們其實有一些共識我們也幫忙想了一些辦法就在短期我們在人類用藥的部分可以從我們藥商藥局經商的藥局等等到動物的機構去短期我們只要有運銷紀錄很清楚可以對得起來可是中長期的話因為短期的時候讓公藥就能夠穩定不會斷掉但是中長期的確需要一個資訊的平台"},{"start":5025.172,"end":5034.843,"text":"那我們在藥品的追追追系統裡面在我們的藥商在我們的中盤商裡面都可以確定所以我們從我們這邊可以抓到出貨的狀況"},{"start":5036.567,"end":5064.213,"text":"在農業部的部分在使用端在診所在動物醫院裡面的雙方能夠勾基讓我們最擔心的部分能夠被確保那需要多少時間我問的是需要多少時間那個運銷紀錄應該即刻就可以有運銷紀錄就可以了對那你整個的勾基你的那個資料跟委員說明這個大概有兩個層面要處理第一個就是因為他這個辦法要修訂所以修訂他還是需要找相關的stakeholder來討論那你們不是現在共識已經很強"},{"start":5064.693,"end":5094.233,"text":"那個是我們內部的行政作業的共識但是我們還是要聽聽stakeholder包含獸醫師包含這些事主大家的意見那麼還有中間可能牽涉到藥商藥局這個還是需要有一些會議討論然後進行法制作業那第二個後面的程序上它有兩個程序需要把它資訊的資訊流要把它完備一個是藥品的流向資訊第二個是使用的這個登錄因為我們能用藥品多數健保"},{"start":5095.274,"end":5119.736,"text":"我知道 我要問的就是你們需要多少時間這個要兩個系統這個系統因為在目前來講這個農業部這邊的系統是要新建的所以它會比較多一點時間那我們這個系統是ready的只是協助對接所以要多少時間 你們回答不出來這個要看那個房間署的評估署長你們需要多少時間"},{"start":5121.155,"end":5146.383,"text":"其實以現在來講 懲判單位因為這個回到還是落實在基層那以基層來講他整個現在所有的系統要重新重置 或者那個其實真的就在花時間那原來他們的評估是希望一年半把整個系統嫁接因為一年半 除了食藥署還有那個疾管署疾管署的都要嫁接還有新制 那我現在我想我們會盡量縮短就是假設這個順暢的話我覺得再縮短"},{"start":5148.404,"end":5150.406,"text":"對如果可以的話我們再把這個系統上趕快對接然後越早完成我們越早宣告要求就是在你的新辦法還沒有公告上路之前這個動物用藥的藥品絕對不能短缺"},{"start":5165.958,"end":5182.303,"text":"要供應無虞這是第一件第二件一年內你們這個新的機制一定走中長期你要把它建置是完整的就是從登錄到它的流向管理你是一套完整的制度那如果是這樣代表你前面的辦法你這兩年你根本你們都沒有想到這些問題配套也沒有在做"},{"start":5184.284,"end":5199.319,"text":"有 我再跟委員報告就是因為我還有下一題要問反正就是你們往這個目標去做接下來我要問的是食安的問題因為今天這個我們經貿談判辦公室我們的代表是沒有到今天派的是執行秘書經貿談判辦公室來這個徐執密也請上台"},{"start":5203.423,"end":5216.88,"text":"這一次的ART的談判 我們可以看到在食安的部分 我們做了非常大的退讓我自己的觀察 你的源頭把關已經被破防了食安五環也破工了 食安防線棄守 我們一個一個來看"},{"start":5219.463,"end":5233.421,"text":"這一次你們談的成果基本上我們跟美國的經貿談判你可以談但是食品安全為什麼我們對於食品的把關我們要棄守這一點是我非常不能接受的第一個"},{"start":5234.622,"end":5240.708,"text":"我們過去在管理這個豬肉美豬進口的時候當時的蘇貞昌院長他說我們會有很好的一套的管理措施大家不用怕這個就是我們對於食安的保證第一個最重要的是產地的茶廠從源頭去管理"},{"start":5251.958,"end":5279.327,"text":"結果這次的談判我要問經貿辦你們的談判怎麼會去同意就是我們可以不用事先這個去茶廠然後就可以進來就可以長驅直入各位人說明這個茶廠這個我們源頭管理還是有的有嗎我們有系統性茶盒跟茶廠那這個部分沒有讓步沒有沒有沒有讓步那為什麼這個出來的報告是這樣子寫就是說美方要求就是沒有茶廠這件事情"},{"start":5279.887,"end":5306.058,"text":"有有有查場可以查場我要確定這件事我們去年才去查過啊所以ART簽了之後還是可以查場可以可以可以另外一個我們這兩塊一個叫系統性查核就是整個制度的review第二個就是查場查場非常重要所以我要問的是這個絕對是不能放掉沒有問題的這個沒有改變沒有改變另外一個是那個秦出肉品的管制措施就是說美方現在說他提供名單我們就要照單全售"},{"start":5306.818,"end":5329.199,"text":"就是我們不再由防檢署來認定是不是這樣這個系統性查核的概念就是這樣就是用一個國家的它的這個品質管控制度去認可那我們就會就像GMP沒有過去我們的防檢署還要再認可一遍我們是主權國家怎麼可以是美方開端我們就照單全收"},{"start":5331.434,"end":5357.426,"text":"所以這個沒有改變嗎所以世界各國裡面我們系統性查核確定這個制度對接所以它制度裡面允許的就像我們也希望是我們允許的我們制度裡面允許一樣可以得到但是當對方要求他其實就是要我們的許可的時候我們還是有許可的功能現在是不是沒有了透過系統性查核才能夠有這樣的制度我們跟其他國家也是這樣我們現在是不是沒有許可權了"},{"start":5359.852,"end":5373.023,"text":"還有最終許可權還是有對不對這一個源頭的管理我覺得非常重要如果是這個棄守我覺得我們的食安源頭就是破防沒有沒有這個還是要經過系統性查核那另外一個就是邊境的逐批查驗"},{"start":5374.284,"end":5394.122,"text":"我們還可以做到百分之百的逐批查驗嗎美方是不是要求我們要放棄百分之百逐批查驗應該是這樣子講就是說我們現在只有針對美方這個國家做逐批查驗是啊 因為他們還有萊克多巴胺啊但是我們查了這麼多批之後呢都是合格的"},{"start":5394.542,"end":5415.769,"text":"都是合格 所以才會回到常態你的常態是幾%就是它有這個來那個說明一下它是查到有問題的時候才會再增加查核的所以你就不百分之百逐批查驗了嗎我們回到我們常態性的因為常態性的查驗的話其實是2到10%的查驗"},{"start":5418.51,"end":5436.08,"text":"因為過去的經驗裡面我們已經查數萬批裡面都是正常人我跟委員報告去年我們有萊克多巴胺澳洲的豬腳嘛我親自去看了一趟澳洲的豬腳養豬場屠宰場等等那個是我在委員會要求的我親自去了"},{"start":5436.26,"end":5463.983,"text":"去看了結果我看到有三分之一的台灣整個場面有三分之一台灣的孩子在那邊為這個豬場在努力所謂打工換宿那我們看到他的整個制度化裡面在做這件事情也了解他們的實際上的狀況所以上次也是房檢署跟食藥署共同前去對於這個所以這個是邊境外去除非查驗去查場之後系統性查核到我們邊境就要按照所謂的"},{"start":5464.784,"end":5468.729,"text":"風險我們現在叫border protection intelligence這個署長你暫時先不用講我們之所以對於美國的豬肉採取更嚴格的把關是因為我們開放了讓他允許有萊克多巴胺的美豬可以進到台灣來"},{"start":5482.307,"end":5503.608,"text":"所以當時蘇貞昌院長才說大家放心我會百分之百逐批的查驗我的百分之百逐批的查驗是讓我不會有高過這個比例的收入金混到市場來因為你這個就是開放了你不要把它跟其他國家又混為一談我今天要問的這個就是我們放棄了百分之百逐批查驗這個就是事實"},{"start":5505.369,"end":5519.856,"text":"這回到我們的風險查核方式啦按照我們對所有國家進來的我知道 但當時蘇貞昌院長承諾不是這樣子嘛你們現在不要把一般性的查驗又拿回來談我要講的是你這個已經放鬆但是你的來季的標準又放寬我們看一下下一張你的這個來季的標準你的租雜稅 你知道嗎日本是0.04ppm"},{"start":5533.321,"end":5558.353,"text":"韓國基本上是不得檢出個案是0.01我們這次ART之後你要放寬到0.09ppm這是不是事實我們找到的數據是不是事實那你就是比原來的你的這個是暴增9倍喔那這樣的情況底下你邊境你還不逐批抽那你怎麼知道他有沒有超過這個標準"},{"start":5559.694,"end":5576.799,"text":"先跟委員報告一下因為ART裡面內容其實針對是我們採取的是以國際的標準以Codex標準如果Codex沒有訂才會有另外一部分的一個思考那我就問你租雜稅你到底訂多少我們對於相關的一個規定是以國際對接的一個那有什麼國際標準日本0.04ppm 韓國是0.01啊"},{"start":5579.98,"end":5605.856,"text":"我們這邊是提到跟CODEX的對接所以就是0.09ppm嘛對,跟CODEX的對接那我要問你的就是你現在租紮你的來地容許量是暴增9倍你跟原來的是暴增9倍在這樣的情況底下你邊境又不採取百分之百逐批查驗然後讓你看一個數字就是美國的租內帳進到台灣現在如果跟110年比較起來114年已經來到7681公噸"},{"start":5609.978,"end":5624.725,"text":"我就問你 這一些豬雜 豬內臟它的流向都流到哪裡去未來ART之後 它是成長的九倍 它的含量是九倍你要不要管制 它是不是流向小吃攤我們還有縣市 就是說鼓勵大家這個台灣豬還舉辦了小吃大賽 還有黑白切今天的這一些豬雜 其實就是黑白切裡面"},{"start":5637.91,"end":5664.643,"text":"我跟委員說明澄清一下這些資訊在這個豬肝豬腎的部分日本韓國新加坡的標準都是跟Codex一致那我們現在也是跟Codex一致也就是說在肝的部分是0.04腎的部分是0.09其他的可食用部分是採取其中較低者我們大概的這個標準都會跟Codex是一致"},{"start":5665.305,"end":5680.331,"text":"你的較低者是多少?就是0.09ppm嗎?我們是肝腎那我就問你豬大腸是多少?豬大腸其他的話我們如果沒有特別去的話就是採肝腎比較低的就是0.04你豬大腸現在是0.04然後那個豬的肝臉呢?豬的肝臉他是算肌肉啊"},{"start":5692.609,"end":5701.761,"text":"他沒有算在豬雜裡面沒有啊眼頰肉也是肌肉所以是0.01肉的是0.01啊所以大腸小腸你現在是0.04但是肝腎是0.09不是肝是0.04腎是0.09這個都是Cortex的標準"},{"start":5708.223,"end":5724.334,"text":"所以你其他沒有比日韓高沒有日韓新加坡都一致你提供一個數據給我沒有問題我們把這個國際對照跟各國的對照的我現在最關切的是我們跟澳洲在澳洲日本韓國新加坡都是一致的甘0.04剩0.09"},{"start":5727.136,"end":5743.062,"text":"好你這個數據你要確定你是正確的然後你要提供給我因為我們辦公室找到的資料是我們現在是比日韓還要高沒有沒有沒有我們跟日韓一樣我們是按照Codex的標準他們也是Codex的標準他們兩個的標準也不一樣"},{"start":5743.462,"end":5767.156,"text":"沒有 他們兩個的就是Codex的標準 我們這邊看到的就是好 你把資料提供給我 我會再去核對喔那我要問你的就是 我們現在顯然是放寬然後放寬了之後 我要問你的是我們這一些冷凍的豬雜 你的流向到底流去哪裡我們現在市面上其實都看不到 然後它未來的這個含量是變高的請問它是流向哪裡 你們有掌握嗎"},{"start":5769.437,"end":5790.064,"text":"這如果以114年來講7681公噸的豬雜流向流去了哪裡做了什麼食品流到了小吃攤嗎你們到底整個食藥署有沒有掌握流向跟委員報告一下我們其他可食部位的數字與美國的部分那以今年度進來的是有1746"},{"start":5793.366,"end":5808.358,"text":"目前今年的數字是這樣那其中我們特別看一下有沒有所謂的租聖的進來其實是都沒有進來所以租的早對今年度最新的那我們整體的看起來那進口租是佔百分之八"},{"start":5809.159,"end":5830.344,"text":"百分之九十二是我們的我要知道他的旅遊箱到底去了哪裡因為市面上大家都不知道你們標示也沒有在做也沒有人看到跟委員講我們現在的原料原產地包裝食品散裝食品或者職工場所我們都有去稽查像今年對不對整個去年度我們整個稽查九千多件有兩件沒有標示好的這兩件都是台灣豬沒有標好"},{"start":5831.644,"end":5836.089,"text":"不管是哪裡不管台灣豬還是國外豬我們通通都會來你給我一個報告你要告訴我以114年為例進口的這些雜碎就是豬雜它的流向它的體向它的流向然後那個比例佔多少你們都有掌握把報告提供給我"},{"start":5851.625,"end":5877.612,"text":"因為民眾都不知道那因為這是食安的問題你們這一開放之後事實上我們吃的比例就會高我們國人的食用習慣習慣去吃這些內臟所以這個是你們食安要把關好的我覺得民眾有選擇權基本上我是反對在這個食安裡面去做讓步的我們台美的經貿經貿的一些交換有很多可以交換但是食品安全不能交換還有最後提醒一個"},{"start":5878.172,"end":5899.269,"text":"基改食品絕對不能進校園絕對不能進校園部長你可以承諾嗎跟委員說明我的立場跟您一樣健康不能退讓所以我們所有的調整跟國際的接軌也都是經過健康風險評估我們來把關的那基改的所有的管理作為沒有任何改變"},{"start":5900.066,"end":5921.063,"text":"不會 不會進校園我要你承諾不會嘛 這個是很多家長很擔心的怕我們一讓再讓之後 孩子的健康都出賣了這個是絕對不允許的 好 謝謝好 謝謝委員謝謝王一鳴委員的諮詢這次宣告待會邱惠璐委員尋答完休息十分鐘現在請蘇清泉委員諮詢"},{"start":5931.072,"end":5950.482,"text":"謝謝主席今天排的題目非常非常好有三個問題請我們的市部長有請市部長市要署都立法署長市要署市委員早江志剛署長待會黃田署署長也會上來第一個問題我們現在進口的"},{"start":5956.308,"end":5978.528,"text":"美國、歐盟或日本的原廠藥我們現在進到台灣我們課的關稅是多少0沒有關稅啦那個學民藥也是0都是一樣都是0那我們出口到美國或者歐盟的原料藥他們課我們多少關稅"},{"start":5981.639,"end":5999.536,"text":"應該是這樣子講 就是說在當然最近那個美國有宣布他是對這個專利期內的藥跟其原料藥才課稅所以其他的這個學名藥的原料藥還有學名藥那麼到美國還是沒有關稅"},{"start":6000.953,"end":6022.429,"text":"阿川普是在說什麼,我是在撒謊阿我們現在的原料藥,台灣也有幾個藥廠在做原料藥阿因為成本很高阿因為我們偉大的事務長跟健保處我們沒有供應到美國的專利藥的原料藥所以對我們沒有影響阿如果是學名藥的原料藥?也沒有課稅"},{"start":6023.49,"end":6047.766,"text":"那他現在要扣是扣專利藥就是那個新藥啦專利藥集齊原料藥集齊原料藥所以我們台灣沒有在做這個我們這個專利藥輸美的只有一個啊這個藥廠已經在美國也要設廠了所以也不受影響所以他在說什麼跟我們沒關係沒關係沒有影響好那第二個問題我們"},{"start":6051.348,"end":6060.974,"text":"最近我們部長有講說因為我們的原料藥大部分都來自印度跟中國大陸對不對原料藥嘛對全球都這樣日本、韓國、台灣是要做一個聯盟自己來開發這個行得通嗎"},{"start":6070.36,"end":6096.477,"text":"應該這麼說就是各國現在也都重視到這個多元分散那個原料要來源啦所以我們也有一個叫做這個國家藥品韌性整備計畫裡面就打算要來鼓勵在台灣開發原料要啦但是我們也不可能全部的原料要都自己做啦因為這個是一個高污染的產業那也沒那麼多所以需要跟其他的這個友好國家大家"},{"start":6097.638,"end":6126.303,"text":"這個建立這個非紅供應鏈啦所以大概有這樣的構思在努力因為原料最原始的原料就是礦區出來然後再去墮碎然後再去分提煉分解那個一定是要國家很大眾生夠因為那個是汙染還會有時候要爆炸所以一定是那種澳洲啦中國大陸印度這種大國才有辦法"},{"start":6128.602,"end":6145.395,"text":"我們這裡只能開中間的,中間的原料藥的後面那一段我們也有原料藥廠,我們有幾家原料藥廠再來時間有限,我不想像汪玉敏這樣講那麼久第二個問題"},{"start":6147.045,"end":6162.982,"text":"我們馬鈴薯因為現在所有的管理長大家都很歡樂的馬鈴薯以前是如果化解我們小時候在健康期就知道化解後它會臭氧臭氧裡面一定有一些化學物品"},{"start":6163.769,"end":6184.457,"text":"那這個叫做ソラリン嘛 它會產生ソラリン那ソラリン怎麼會翻成龍奎簡這個是誰翻的啊 哪一個天才啊我們這些外來語到底就是喪在翻裂的啊你看日本的外來語是都很有藝術的我們說哇 ソラリン 這個是什麼東東啊叫做龍奎簡 這是石藥師江志剛你發明的喔"},{"start":6193.786,"end":6207.279,"text":"好 那這種以前是整批退現在美國要求我們要場子裡面拿回去然後自己分 把它炒香的吃吃掉就可以做洋芋片啊 什麼這樣做"},{"start":6211.141,"end":6238.843,"text":"我們是這樣第一個要先強化這個源頭管理所以在這個美國他在那邊要出口之前他就要去強化檢疫規定包含要噴灑這個叫做那個發芽劑那個發芽的抑制劑他要噴灑然後要去通過我們這個防檢署相關的這個檢疫規定所以說完成OK了之後他才可以上傳"},{"start":6240.084,"end":6266.283,"text":"那因為如果在這個船運過程當中有發生這個腐爛的情形的話當然如果你整批太高的比例還是會退運的那如果只是部分的話那它就經過特殊的封裝處理到加工地點再去做剔除啦 是這樣因為我們屏東黃山 它仿良那邊的芒果要銷日本那芒果的皮薄薄的"},{"start":6267.202,"end":6290.682,"text":"如果那些藥丟兩下去,就一點點黑掉所以就要烘過,燒煙燻,可能部長也不知道以後有機會帶你去看看啦有的是用那五十五度的水把它燙過,這樣它那兩下去會死去如果不去跟日本,如果有健康能補財,日本是整個在消費"},{"start":6292.023,"end":6309.899,"text":"整批 整貨就給你銷毀所以沒有在地銷的所以你們在把關你們在把關要 要 要 要 嚴格 不能這樣他美國講什麼 你做什麼不會 因為他進到台灣之後加工處理的這個地點也是要我們許可的"},{"start":6310.399,"end":6333.229,"text":"所以它的那個加工那個食品加工的那個許可再製的話我們會特別的去強化管理因為這個根莖裂它如果發芽之後產生那個索拉磷這個成年人吃了其實老闆娘嘛欸 孩子啊是會抽筋耶你神經系統受不了耶 有的會翹起耶"},{"start":6334.454,"end":6347.414,"text":"所以我們都是醫生 你就要把關給誰不要發生命案 那時候你也受不了了那第二個就是剛剛有講基改的食品不能進校園 因為現在"},{"start":6349.478,"end":6370.836,"text":"現在的國中國小現在的營養午餐現在各縣市好像都承諾要免費由政府來支出台北市一餐是75塊我們屏東是57塊我們屏東比較小一點就對了好這些基改的食品你剛剛有承諾說不會進嗎不會進校園嗎那有入華的嘛"},{"start":6374.847,"end":6383.347,"text":"有入法的嗎有嘛齁好那再來就是寒萊克多巴胺的"},{"start":6384.502,"end":6404.555,"text":"也不能進校園 現在是沒有進校園沒有 現在是百分之百用國產租那這個不要再讓他們進到校園去是的 四年來百分之百百分之百 這個很重要 這個不能開玩笑的所以這三樣都要很小心好 來 再來黃田署站起來我們現在的"},{"start":6410.669,"end":6424.554,"text":"動物用藥跟人的要流用是在我第八屆的時候那個時候部長你現在做醫事司長那個時辰在這裡就在這裡檢討 幾行幾行要讓人人可以養 動物可以養我們現在的動物用藥全台灣從女兒到我的毛小孩總共兩百八十幾萬隻要到三百萬隻三百四"},{"start":6440.221,"end":6451.648,"text":"所以現在照顧毛小孩的這些年輕人,他們把他當作是家人所以健保的可能不是2300萬人,是要2670萬人"},{"start":6456.707,"end":6481.607,"text":"後面 這樣可以同意嗎好我再拉一條這30%是動物用藥 70%都是流用的好啦 那現在開放到剛剛講是200多種了 是不是現在要開放的話都701項 還會再增加我要替這些毛小孩的事主講講話因為"},{"start":6484.501,"end":6502.801,"text":"簡報是因為石崇洋部長跟健保署強砍 一直砍 一直壓所以健保的藥價都很合理 很低所以大家都這樣犀利現在豆腐用藥進木前是我們的"},{"start":6507.301,"end":6521.412,"text":"我們醫師是涵蓋中醫、西醫、亞醫那獸醫是農業部發的證照所以獸醫開出來的處方是獸醫師自己調劑、自己給藥、自己收費沒有藥師嘛"},{"start":6523.547,"end":6549.877,"text":"要是沒有介入嘛那你現在這些毛小孩的素質 他們的負擔太大嘛我感覺他們的顏色太貴嘛他們如果像健保這樣搶的 他們就很合理的啦所以現在的問題是出於錢的問題嘛你一直貴 吸血管用藥 癌症用藥這些素質怎麼負擔得起呢"},{"start":6550.797,"end":6565.21,"text":"那你現在是想把這些獸醫師開處方因為他的獸醫的診所啦什麼也好他沒有辦法備那麼多種藥嘛所以他都處方整個要去藥局尿嘛藥局尿大家都睜一隻眼閉一隻眼嘛所以有時候"},{"start":6572.766,"end":6585.142,"text":"藥局來跟便宜釣魚或要去給動物用的,我都搞不清楚,你現在是怎樣規範所以主席今天提這個題目非常好,至少要把它釐清嘛,我認為"},{"start":6587.18,"end":6603.82,"text":"對 完全這個委員講的我完全同意就是在這個動物的這個治療上面是沒有醫藥分業它就是由這個獸醫師直接就可以提供藥物那只不過是因為現在它用到了人用藥"},{"start":6604.781,"end":6633.491,"text":"那人用藥基於我們是主管機關的立場必須要掌握流向那麼一方面也要注意到這些用藥的安全包含不要因為濫用造成抗藥性的問題這個會回過頭來危害到人體健康跟我們未來使用藥物的選擇那另外也有一些比較高風險的藥物的管理像麻醉的用藥啦這些鎮定安眠的用藥那麼也避免人跟動物之間"},{"start":6634.511,"end":6659.099,"text":"然後老來老去 總是不知道會不會倒掉所以上次我們這個過去健保管得這麼好所以這個是不希望有這個藥品管理的漏洞把這一塊納到健保署來管理可以啊可以嗎食藥署來管理啊我們現在是 我真的很擔心因為我是臨床醫師 我是心臟科醫師你是急診科 你是腎臟科"},{"start":6664.481,"end":6671.347,"text":"麻醉的藥FG的藥那這些東西是很可怕的如果流用出來"},{"start":6674.494,"end":6697.194,"text":"報告委員 每一顆都歷歷皆清楚 流向絕對掌握的這我們都要把它管控得很好啦就是要管控得很好所以我們現在也在跟農業部跟他合作嘛就是讓我們兩邊的這個系統可以解決一方面這個藥商供藥的流向在哪裡然後使用的量如何"},{"start":6698.094,"end":6710.328,"text":"這樣我們才能夠公積 確保這個不管是動物要用藥 還是要人用藥都能夠穩定供應人用藥的劑量是跟狼犬一樣這個是我念到的 我們今天也記"},{"start":6711.82,"end":6736.957,"text":"那所以這個動物用藥跟人的用藥會不會流用我比較擔心的是一些管制藥品跟麻酸藥品這個真的會出事而且現在的量那麼大而且不要讓這些宿主負擔太大因為這個我們到獸醫店去獸醫師那邊去我覺得都很貴那個動物小旅館都要一天多少錢多少錢比健保還貴"},{"start":6738.038,"end":6762.604,"text":"你知道嗎?所以健保局實際上就是夭壽的所以這一塊一定要好好的管理那你要嘛就他們開廚房前全部都到健保要求去領藥至少藥師也可以管制一下雖然那事不上這些藥師也去受一些這些的訓練讓他們有本質血能能增加"},{"start":6763.504,"end":6791.283,"text":"不然的話那我們的藥師這一塊也是沒有所以我們現在初步的規劃方向也是雙軌制一方面是可以常用備藥的話可以從藥商或藥局直接供應或者是因為不是常備的部分備不足的部分可以到藥局因為比較方便也可以去拿所以是朝向用雙軌制的方式來重新規劃這樣"},{"start":6793.264,"end":6812.251,"text":"杜署長我要講,現在我們的健保藥局,如果我看不到很多行,他們會去物流那裡調,調之後再栽培過來,然後藥水再發給我們的病人,那這樣是很上軌道的,那你健保藥局,如果你"},{"start":6813.251,"end":6842.037,"text":"你那個獸醫師不可能看這麼多藥嘛,他靠可能,他就把頓藥就倒了所以一定拿來藥取,健保藥取這樣唸啊健保藥取這樣阿婆管制,阿婆就我們的知識啊一些管制藥,一些麻醉藥那個甚至會出問題然後裡面的對獸醫師的管理有那麼嚴格嘛然後他自己開除方,自己調藥,自己配藥,然後自己藥藥藥品的副作用,交叉反應那個會不會過量,會不會死掉"},{"start":6842.987,"end":6864.953,"text":"那個都是因為現在養寵物的人那麼多所以今天沒時間講到經濟動物那個更大一塊但是這些寵物毛小孩這邊很多年輕人這樣我們是要很小心那獸醫師這邊怎麼管理現在獸醫師有幾個目前全台灣的獸醫師大概有6000多位"},{"start":6865.307,"end":6877.876,"text":"六千多,那跟中醫是差不多啦那有兩千多家的動物醫院,就是獸醫的診療機構,就是動物醫院所以這一塊,暫緩實施,我也不知道是在暫緩實施什麼,是現在這樣繼續這樣繼續這樣,我皮膚這樣齁,沒中你是最高的,你要講話我先,沒辦法講"},{"start":6890.469,"end":6907.623,"text":"應該是說我們要在最短的時間內重新檢討那個辦法因為那個辦法裡面它涉及到要如何成為這個保護用藥動物保護用藥的程序相關的規定還有使用上的規定要趕快重新檢視我們會盡快的時間內去訂出新的辦法"},{"start":6912.106,"end":6931.419,"text":"做醫師、藥師還要管理辦法還有藥品還有一些危險藥品高菌性藥品都要好好的管理蘇董你跟衛福部要好好好啊,感到好血是,是,不過委員就是因為原來辦法裡面有一些可能沒有規定的細節上會"},{"start":6934.2,"end":6959.089,"text":"沒有辦法也符合到現在目前的一個期待啦所以說我們現在要收回這個辦法的時候都會將社會各界的意見包括雙方相關利害關係人還有我們兩個單位的意見我想大家都會做一個綜合考慮那以及解決到我們現在的寵物就是我們的犬貓跟非激進動物牠們的生命權跟醫療權的保障之下往這個更完善的制度方面來進行以上 謝謝"},{"start":6961.35,"end":6968.875,"text":"攜帶不一樣啦 我們要面對問題 解決問題啦加油 謝謝謝謝委員謝謝首席選委的質詢現在請邱振軍委員質詢主席好 我們請石部長還有我們這個房檢署杜署長有請杜立華署長及石沉良部長"},{"start":6991.347,"end":6992.882,"text":"主委人早部長好"},{"start":6994.363,"end":7021.133,"text":"我想請問一下今年4月8號我們總統府這個國策顧問黃金順在媒體投書說113年通過這套這個能用藥品用於這個犬貓管理辦法是藥師獸醫師事主團體共同努力下推這個通過的過去的會議紀錄裡面你們在訂定這個管理辦法的時候藥師工會是不是強力要求人藥除登錄外全數回歸這個藥局來供應"},{"start":7023.66,"end":7024.38,"text":"報告委員,因為這個是雙部會選公告,那也會爭取到不管"},{"start":7039.281,"end":7060.388,"text":"還是他的身份比較特殊 你們不敢講不是 不是 這個制度的建立的時候 形成的時候其實還是會廣伸大家的意見好啦 當時我們陳俊吉部長跟薛立原前部長一起發布的我們看一下104年 民委會在公告的時候說獸醫師使用人用藥物可直接向藥商購買那108年1月"},{"start":7064.39,"end":7086.371,"text":"藥師公會這個藥師公建議書主張要留藥局重點在於說本會建議能用藥物用於犬貓及非經濟動物依法應納入藥師管理獸醫師則應居於這個診療治療之角色開立處房間再由獸醫師或向民眾向社區藥局取得藥物"},{"start":7087.694,"end":7106.029,"text":"那藥食品質專業這個動物用藥的把關使得保障這個動物健康及全民用藥的環境就是113年通過的版本那獸醫師開藥 事主呢然後去藥局領藥然後再拿回去給這個獸醫師治療嘛當時是這個黃金順是這個產務監事而且已經是內定的這個準理事長"},{"start":7114.136,"end":7132.197,"text":"那108年10月呢黃金順這個正式接任這個理事長之後呢接受媒體採訪的時候他說論期內他希望推動這個單軌制完成這個醫藥分業最後一塊拼圖對醫藥家透明化動物人用藥"},{"start":7133.138,"end":7146.895,"text":"中藥調劑問題 都堅持他的看法他說沒有人比藥師更懂藥每一種藥都有配五禁劑毛小孩用的藥應該由藥師做最後把關那我現在覺得 你們會不會覺得"},{"start":7149.439,"end":7157.024,"text":"來的有點突然他說藥要留在藥局藥師把關結果你們113年的管理辦法就變了然後大數在114年與115年的營運重點就是將人用藥轉寵物用的櫃位制度化"},{"start":7167.071,"end":7181.552,"text":"目標是全台一千家的門市達成社區滲透力的極大化你們按照黃金順的這個指示從108年1月18日的建議書開始衛福部跟農業部就乖乖的就遵他的指示這樣辦理你不覺得很奇怪嗎"},{"start":7183.794,"end":7208.626,"text":"跟委員說明這個我剛剛已經提到說在動物治療上沒有所謂醫藥分業跟這個人用是不一樣藥師那個獸醫師是可以直接這個調劑提供治療因為你們第一你沒說這個獸醫的購藥權把104年的那個獸醫可直接買藥的草案直接這個就處理掉了那等於是把全台毛小孩用藥的採購權從獸醫院轉到了藥局嗎"},{"start":7212.027,"end":7229.779,"text":"也不是這樣就是說在這個獸醫他還是可以直接購藥沒有問題只是說在這個辦法裡面呢把這個人用藥品可以用於動物的呢把它分成兩種一種就是已經議定出來的這個700多種的藥裡面來申報為重度保護用藥的藥商可以直接購還有500多項沒進來你怎麼處理"},{"start":7235.623,"end":7264.444,"text":"沒有進來的原來的規定它就是變成會到藥局可是這個就會造成取得上面的一些方便性的問題所以現在才把它暫時把它停下來重新再檢討當然這個方便性上要把它提高你們這個財團它的計畫馬上跑得比你們還快所以你們會不會以後就照他們的版本這樣走您說的是哪一個版本就是他講的就是到這個各藥局去領藥"},{"start":7265.441,"end":7284.958,"text":"我們的目前的這個雙方討論的大概是雙軌制就是他也可以直接跟藥商叫藥那但是不足的地方也可以到藥局去拿好啦我希望你們兩個部會因為時間不過兩個部會在這件事情上真的可以替我們毛小孩的生命這個為出發點慎重來處理那另外我們請經貿辦"},{"start":7293.133,"end":7312.726,"text":"這個台美對等貿易協定就是ART的主文本這是最重要的法律框架內容涵蓋的關稅貿易這個數位貿易等那台美投資合作瞭解備忘錄MOU這是針對那五千億美元投資與半導體供應鏈合作的意向書沒錯吧"},{"start":7314.704,"end":7329.296,"text":"台美投資MOU是2500億的企業資助投資除了ART跟MOU2月12號在華府我們駐美代表談了幾個文件有多少份是換文還有多少是執行手冊"},{"start":7331.892,"end":7347.888,"text":"2月12號在華府簽的那個ART的全文都已經公佈在網路上那為什麼美國人的報告裡面這個MRT裡面可以精準預測我們要改的這個食安數據是不是你們早就私下簽下了協定還是你們已經答應人家要放水"},{"start":7348.955,"end":7363.146,"text":"跟委員說明就是說在相關的一些這個殘留標準部分呢我們跟國際去對接接軌所以應該所提的應該是指的是那個CODES的國際標準對你們都照他的標準嘛對不對"},{"start":7364.667,"end":7378.519,"text":"國際標準 我們是希望在談判 包含非關稅的貿易壁壘就像檢驗標準 查驗方式 產業容許量等等以及換文跟執行手冊這些內容 未來會不會送立法院"},{"start":7380.194,"end":7402.202,"text":"我們會按照規定什麼規定就如果是需要涉及到修法的部分呢那當然我們就一定按照程序送到立法院因為條約締結法第三條寫得非常清楚啦只要涉及人民權利跟義務涉及法律變更它就是條約那如果按照美國的要求開放基改食品你剛剛講說這個不會進來嘛對不對對"},{"start":7406.143,"end":7428.012,"text":"那開放這個放寬碼鈴薯檢疫等標準還有來際的容許值呢如果是這個萊克多巴胺的MRL的部分這是在授權的法規我們會按照法治程序來進行那是不是你們他們是整包來談對不對那你是不是整包來談的時候你是不是整包要送到我們立法院來審議來通過"},{"start":7430.558,"end":7459.013,"text":"因為他的這個範圍非常涉及層面很廣向委員報告就是有關於這個台美對等貿易協定的部分那之前這個本院長官已經有說明就是說將來會這個會把ART連同MOU送到立法院審議那目前是因為美國最高法院的判決之後導致這個ART的內容可能需要做必要的調整之後才能夠再送到立法院所以目前我們是我們希望知道的"},{"start":7459.393,"end":7479.231,"text":"不是說我們今天討論說你們改了什麼而是我想要知道說美國這個MTE報告裡到底要求什麼是不是應該跟我們國人來說明如果涉及到法規要修訂的部分我們也都是採取公開透明的方式你們讓我感覺到說如果美國這樣要求你們會偷偷地改啊"},{"start":7479.957,"end":7502.429,"text":"不會不會不會所有都是按照這個法定的程序來做那屬於這個食品農產品的項目查驗方式如果要改成這個業者依循這個記錄的調整那就是記錄好的要這個降低標準然後逐批檢查被要求取消邊境程序被要求降低干預這些內容沒有錯吧"},{"start":7503.925,"end":7510.453,"text":"應該是說回到我們的常規程序你們說今天你們報告裡面說邊境管理不便嘛對不對對"},{"start":7512.113,"end":7536.359,"text":"可是名稱不變做法有沒有改變沒有沒有沒有完全一樣嗎對對對好我們看這個萊克多巴胺好了這3月份公布的動物用藥殘留標準剛好跟美題的美國的這個MTE報告出爐差大概兩週那當然這份公告的這個PDF我們看一下朱聖這樣明明寫著0.04那後來幾天美國的報告確証這個我們臺灣已經答應0.09了"},{"start":7542.816,"end":7555.109,"text":"是美國人說謊還是我們自己調的?就你講的那個Codex那個嘛對不對?3月我們沒有去調整這個任何的產有標準因為那個還要就是你們官方的公告喔?這個公告主要"},{"start":7560.626,"end":7582.485,"text":"是針對那個名稱的部分去做調整而已 還沒有涉及到那個殘留標準你乾障的部分本來0.04嘛 你現在變成0.09啊你們3月有一個公告 可是不是在談那個殘留標準 不是這個好 那其他部位也一樣我們在跟委員釐清 這個公告並不是在調殘留標準這個你們官方公布的耶 我們去抓下來的啊"},{"start":7584.42,"end":7609.755,"text":"那個公佈前面都有一個修正重點那個只是名稱上的調整而已那個翻譯名稱啊牛也一樣嗎 未來牛也一樣嗎這個所有的MIL的標準我們都會總是調整我們用Codex的這個標準還是未來你們自己有沒有最低容許值還是以後就照他的標準我們會除有特殊的情形不然我們都按照Codex的標準"},{"start":7612.335,"end":7629.665,"text":"特殊情形就是Codex的標準不不不Codex是一般國際的通用標準對啊你們碰到問題的時候就拿那個標準來跟我們講對不對那我們之前的設定的標準如果我們當時以前沒有設標準它就是零容許對不對"},{"start":7631.691,"end":7640.299,"text":"對就是現在沒有這個標準那現在我們就按照Codex標準所以你們現在把方法改了啊不是嗎就是要按照我們盡量以前的規定以前規定那樣你們現在要這樣改"},{"start":7644.686,"end":7672.265,"text":"應該這麼說這個Codex的標準也是在2013年之後才有之前Codex也沒有標準是不是我們整個防線都改變了嗎是這樣嗎就因為關稅的關係因為國際的整個科學標準也在進步啦以前也是Codex沒有訂出標準Codex訂出標準之後我們來參考Codex的標準你可不可以在這些關稅之前你自己先訂一個標準不要等到這些東西來的時候你再去調整嘛"},{"start":7672.83,"end":7692.764,"text":"喔 也可以啊 反正我們目前的這個作業也在進行中那我再問一下 這個發芽的馬鈴薯可以吃嗎應該是看它的那個部位啦 看看部位啦什麼叫部位就是看它的情形 情形也重不嚴重啦以前我們是驗到就整批推回去喔 那現在勒"},{"start":7694.974,"end":7720.126,"text":"這個應該是這樣現在我們在整個的農業部說這是防疫管理的問題現在發芽的馬鈴薯可以整批進口進入加工廠你知道嗎所以它是防疫呢還是食安標準我跟你講這個部分是在防疫因為抑壓劑運的過程中還是有發芽可能負壓可能就會必須要剔除以前發芽就是整批退回啊美國說不行嘛所以我們就改了嘛"},{"start":7721.53,"end":7743.584,"text":"就改到去加工嘛那你加工的話你認為它是安全的食品嗎我們是從源頭先要求管理就是在美國境內處理的時候就要經過檢疫他們進來怎麼樣我不知道但是進來台灣的海關我們碰到這個問題我們怎麼處理我們就整批封存然後呢那麼到一個這個特定的加工處所去做剔除"},{"start":7745.559,"end":7772.599,"text":"你們以前看到風險就直接擋嘛你們現在看到風險進來再說這個很多其他的國家都是這樣做就是到一個加工的地方去做剔除馬鈴薯只是其中一個案未來我認為你們所有的明天會不會有其他的這些問題部長我希望你做好你專業的這個工作去把這個事情把關我們都為國人的健康做把關好 謝謝部長 謝謝謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":7775.541,"end":7778.347,"text":"謝謝邱正軍委員的質詢 現在請邱惠潤委員質詢"},{"start":7792.062,"end":7803.548,"text":"主席 各位政府部門的官員大家好那有請那個衛福部長 石部長然後有請石耀署的署長有請房間署的署長 謝謝邱委員早 署長早"},{"start":7810.151,"end":7823.381,"text":"那部長還有兩位署長我今天是想跟三位請教關於犬貓非經濟動物用藥的問題好那我們先從這張PPT開始看齊那我要細說從頭從2012年開始細說那"},{"start":7828.824,"end":7842.427,"text":"2012年呢因為有發生獸醫使用了偽藥的情形那當然我們的主管機關在這邊也很盡責有加強的取締那取締之後的結果呢當然一些藥商呢他就不敢把藥物賣給這些獸醫院獸醫師那導致出來的問題呢就是獸醫師獸醫院要取藥變成困難重重這是2012的事情"},{"start":7851.949,"end":7879.918,"text":"那困難重重這問題當然獸醫界都一直不斷的在反映所以在2015年的時候呢就去修動保法的第四條那我想這些條文大家應該都非常熟悉就是提到說如果動物的這個藥物不足的時候中央主管機關公告之後可以使用這些人用的藥物這樣子好那現在問題出現了這是2015年的的修法那修法接觸了一個原則就是獸醫"},{"start":7881.178,"end":7903.726,"text":"院可以使用人用的藥物這是修法的原則但是可使用跟可取得是不是畫上等號呢我想不是畫上等號的所以才會導致從2015年一直到現在都有一些紛擾出現那獸醫可以使用這些人用的藥物那可不可以取得那當時我講的時空背景那不知道這個"},{"start":7906.258,"end":7927.612,"text":"署長 部長 不好意思 請問當時的時空背景 可使用人用的藥物 但可不可以取得可購買人用的藥物我想在他的這個使用管理上呢 在動把法第四條第三項有另外的授權辦法 透過這個辦法的制定之後來取得"},{"start":7928.092,"end":7955.538,"text":"對 但是這是2015的修法嘛可是你說的那個執法是2024才問世 才公告嘛那當然施行日期就是未來的7月1號只是目前看起來嘎然而止好 那我們回到2015年的時空環境受醫他可使用人用的藥物但是他的取得似乎受到藥事法50條的限制就是他沒有辦法直接跟藥商來購買直接跟藥商來取得那"},{"start":7956.438,"end":7982.589,"text":"那我現在有一個問題要在這邊先暫停一下就是說因為您剛好像回答那個王育民委員嘛就是關於現在面對這些紛擾採取的制度就是公告制嘛公告制就是那701種品項呢全都不用再經過登錄然後就可以變成動保藥物嘛所以現在是不是701項都可以讓獸醫院跟獸醫師來直接跟藥商取得"},{"start":7985.249,"end":8011.905,"text":"這個應該這麼講在藥事法您這個是法律專家啦應該也很清楚在藥事法第一條就已經明訂本法沒有這個規定的地方從其他法律規定所以動物在用藥的部分它是用在動物保護法裡面的相關規定所以有它的規定那麼如何這個管理呢就是在這個動物保護法的相關規定裡面去處理那自然就可以供應"},{"start":8013.406,"end":8041.187,"text":"我的問題一就是說2015的時空背景受醫他可使用人用的藥物但是呢卻沒有辦法取得跟購買因為他受到藥事法50條的限制嘛所以才會在這個動物保護法裡面去做這樣的從第四條第二項讓他得以使用那麼至於說他怎麼樣管理在第三項的授權那現在第三項已經嘎然而止了嘛目前已經嘎然而止"},{"start":8042.529,"end":8058.004,"text":"現在我們的現行機制我們會盡快把它來協助農業部在補助我瞭解 但我現在的問題就是說現在你們口頭上嘛承諾的方式就是把那701個品項全都透過公告制嘛然後讓受醫院受醫師可以直接跟藥商購買嘛"},{"start":8059.005,"end":8069.911,"text":"那剛王玉明委員請教你們這個機制很好因為可以解決目前紛亂的情境但是這個機制的法源依據您剛好像回答王玉明委員說法源依據就在動保法第四條第二項嘛那現在是2026那我比較疑問的是2026"},{"start":8076.434,"end":8092.116,"text":"第四條第二項可以作為大開方便之門的依據為什麼2015就不行那我的疑問是到底以動保法第四條第二項作為你們現在大開方便之門是不是一個足夠的法源我的問題是這樣"},{"start":8094.127,"end":8119.429,"text":"就是法源在第四條第二項跟第三項所以兩個要搭配起來是是是 當然問題是第三項你們有公告啊14日期在7月1號已經嘎然而止所以他等於是沒有他等於是沒有沒有他的執法等於是還來不及生效就胎死腹中了就是有法源啦那趕快去把它訂好我的疑問是"},{"start":8120.782,"end":8135.88,"text":"一條法源好像是因為時空背景不一樣在2015年變成在2015年他不是取得藥物的法源但是在2026年的今天就是取得藥物的法源我的問題是這樣那為什麼會產生這種差異"},{"start":8139.389,"end":8157.398,"text":"是因為無法可用然後是不是就是勉強去把凍保法因為凍保法已經存在凍保法的第四條第二項已經2015年就存在了啊怎麼那時候不能夠作為大開方便之門的法源啊現在就可以作為大開方便之門的法源從2015年到現在這個期間還是一樣繼續在供應的啊"},{"start":8161.88,"end":8190.787,"text":"沒有問題啊是在供應但是他把它區分為兩種藥物如果是凍飽藥物的話就可以直接購買原本在第三項規定你的授權辦法在今年7月1號才會實施在這個之前是OK的在這個之前就是可以直接跟從第四條第二項去處理是嗎你確定嗎部長你確定是這樣嗎當然這個法的主管是這樣嗎因為藥事法50條就是限制受醫師可以去取得藥物"},{"start":8193.594,"end":8205.6,"text":"藥事法的第50條就是限制要那個獸醫師跟獸醫院可以直接去跟廠商購買藥物這邊跟委員稍微做一點點補充討論過程當中在108年其實針對剛才提到的辦法的實施之前我們就正式發函給所謂的藥業的工協會藥商人可供應人用藥品與動物診療機構所以"},{"start":8220.386,"end":8235.296,"text":"這個是在108年5月21號的時候呢針對這個議題我們已經知道所以到目前他這個辦法雖然說在研議或者未來的走向對藥商供應的部分目前都是沒有問題的藥商供應那你呢那你講的那些東西要透過登錄制嗎你說108年之後你公告的701項是要透過登錄制才能夠變成凍飽藥物才能夠直接跟藥商來取得嗎報告委員是我們這樣講就是"},{"start":8251.727,"end":8272.917,"text":"當時108年的時候食藥署他有行個文給藥商跟藥局那在這個供應上是沒有問題的那因為後來凝聚了一個法那這個法規的時候他有一個轉介就是說人用藥要成為動保用藥才可以嘛對不對那所以這段時間他仍然在作業的時間還是一樣供應無虞他還是可以"},{"start":8273.717,"end":8277.141,"text":"繼續運作那假設我這個辦法假設說我現在暫緩辦那也是一樣就是108年的那個還是繼續適用我想請教如果說現在我們註銷以後變成一個新的辦法"},{"start":8290.174,"end":8306.613,"text":"那我想我們會重新解釋現有的法規裡面那假設不夠明確周全我想請教一件事因為越聽越混亂就是在今天之前因為我今天聽到一個最新的規定就是說那701樣也沒有所謂的登錄制只要我們主管機關這邊一聲令下公告701項他全都不用經過登錄"},{"start":8311.618,"end":8336.675,"text":"藥商就可以直接去買這是今天以後的答案嘛那今天以前的機制不就是你人用的藥物有701項你要透過登錄你才能夠變成凍飽藥物藥商才能夠直接我想我有一些誤解啦有一些對這個法規的誤解在第四條的第二項凍飽法的第四條的第二項他授權主管機關公告公告之後的藥品品項受益室就可以取得使用"},{"start":8337.785,"end":8350.718,"text":"所以這個是在第四條第二項至於第四條第三項授權的辦法才在把這個第二項主管機關所公告的可使用於這個動物跟非經濟動物的這個"},{"start":8353.34,"end":8373.345,"text":"人用藥品再把它分成保護用藥它是要採取登錄制跟其他然後供應的時候才有不一樣但是在這個辦法沒有實施之前就按照動保法的第四條第二項來執行所以只要主管機關公告的人用藥品藥商就直接可以供應"},{"start":8374.025,"end":8397.277,"text":"那如果是這樣為什麼還要修法如果按照第四條第二項要修的是在第三項你也根本不用執法出來了要修的是第三項因為有需要相關的可是我覺得部長你的法律概念可能不清楚如果按照你的邏輯第三項我當然不會是用法法的主管機關但是在這個辦法在會嫌實施的時候我們都非常清楚"},{"start":8397.917,"end":8416.61,"text":"那麼這個授權的法規是在第四條的第三項我想您這邊是可能需要再進一步的來跟我們討論了解因為你的邏輯很明顯的矛盾你覺得按照第四條第二項就可以公告全部的藥品都可以使用也可以取得"},{"start":8428.278,"end":8437.294,"text":"對 非經濟 講到這邊 那就可以直接使用獸醫師就可以直接去購買嗎就是可以使用當然 不能購買怎麼使用"},{"start":8439.174,"end":8462.51,"text":"這個法律的邏輯是很清楚的因為受限於藥事法第五十條沒有沒有沒有 受限於藥事法第五十條變成這些獸醫師沒有辦法去購買本法沒有規定之處從其他法律規定你如果第四條第二項就你所列出來的藥物只要公告出來就可以取得它就符合我們藥事法第一條的中期從其他法律規定所以這個完全沒有問題在使用上完全合理那麼藥商也可以供應"},{"start":8468.493,"end":8477.938,"text":"部長部長你的第四條第三項還要去補充第二項不是補充第二項它不是它是授權法規第二項因為第二第三項是法規命令部長因為你這樣真的沒有辦法跟你好好討論我真的是完全的我只是對法源因為就如同你說"},{"start":8488.744,"end":8492.485,"text":"如果第四條第二項就可以讓獸醫師取得用藥權之外取得人體藥物的用藥權還可以讓他取得購買權的話可以使用當然就可以要取得不然如何使用"},{"start":8505.97,"end":8524.422,"text":"那如果可以使用又可以取得為什麼現在過去十幾年有這個紛擾你給我答案啊大家就是因為取得紛擾的產生是因為7月1號要實施的新的辦法造成一些使用取得上的不便所以才來調整並不是取得上的問題為什麼7月1號這種法規命令的規定反而會提出第二項的規定這個符合啊你說沒有誤解因為你的第三項"},{"start":8533.668,"end":8548.073,"text":"創造了新的遊戲規則問題是你的第三項去抵觸了第二項的法律這完全不符合法律的體力啊這完全不符合你用執法來如下第二項一定的程序產生那麼如果在這個ABC啊你的執法 你的第三項是執法執法去抵觸法律的規定那你為什麼需要去弄這樣的執法出來沒有這個抵觸 沒有抵觸"},{"start":8558.517,"end":8585.804,"text":"第二項只是在公告得以使用在動物身上的這個人用藥品我請那個房檢署的請問在今天以前在今天以前獸醫師他有人用藥物的使用權但是他有沒有所有人用藥物的取得權其實現在目前的過渡時間他使用都沒有問題"},{"start":8587.205,"end":8587.646,"text":"那取得沒有問題的法源依據是哪一條"},{"start":8603.28,"end":8625.851,"text":"取得沒有問題的法律沒有問題這是根據動保法第四條第二項那如果動保法第四條第二項可以使用為什麼在今日之前都沒有問題那為什麼還要再審議的第三項的授權辦法一旦實施之後造成部分取得的問題在它沒有實施之前是沒有問題的"},{"start":8627.072,"end":8651.891,"text":"你們現在不是已經發展7月以後的執法不是已經開始補充了那如果按照第四條第二項可以使用那為什麼還要修法根本就完全不用修法了啊你完全誤解啦你完全誤解我覺得這個沒有誤解我不接受這樣的指控我完全不接受這樣的指控然後我就指全國人民全國人民在看直播我問一個問題如果第四條第二項就可以作為取得的"},{"start":8655.874,"end":8670.124,"text":"受益是取得要的法源依據為什麼你還要去修第三項你還要去修第三項而且現在根本就不用修法了啊剛黃毓民委員他跟我說第四條第二項竟然可以使用那你就不用修法了啊不是這樣嗎我完全不理解我完全不能夠理解部長我想請問一件事法規命令抵觸法律請問一下誰無效"},{"start":8686.038,"end":8706.315,"text":"法規命令抵觸法律則無效我想你的法律背景很清楚應該知道答案但你不知道答案啊我要給你尋尋善用啊那應該是法規命令無效吧對啊那你的第三項已經抵觸第二項了第一你為什麼要制定沒有抵觸你哪裡沒有抵觸你的執法就是讓大家請委員指教哪裡抵觸了"},{"start":8707.116,"end":8732.903,"text":"你的第二項你一直說第二項是法源第二項可以讓701項的藥品不只讓獸醫師使用還可以讓他購買你知道第二項解釋出來是這樣的結果可是你制定出來的執法卻是701項要區分為兩個部分一個叫人用的藥物一個叫做凍飽藥物凍飽藥物才可以讓獸醫師去使用那完全是抵觸了第二項的規定啊那是一個使用管理辦法"},{"start":8736.744,"end":8753.054,"text":"我不知道你為什麼要去制定一個抵觸母法第4條第2項的規定而且第4條第2項如果可以使用的話為什麼你們現在要修法如果第4條第2項可以使用在什麼過去12年一直到今年完全都是一個分島局面溫暖紀念的狀況我覺得部長你可能要去聽聽看獸醫師跟獸醫院的心聲他們過去12年到現在關於問"},{"start":8763.661,"end":8782.843,"text":"才會去支持這個農業部把這個辦法暫停不要實施然後重新再調整那好如果第四條第二項是法院那為什麼你還要修我就問嘛第四條第二項既然是法院為什麼還要用我們講的是辦法你講的是修法這兩回事啊"},{"start":8783.123,"end":8802.962,"text":"不是 是王毓民委員剛才問你說如果你公告出來的都可以直接在藥商去購買那所以你現在的意思就是只要廢執法嘛母法不用修了嘛 你的意思是這樣因為你母法已經有法源了嘛母法不用修 凍保法不用修啊為什麼要修凍保法"},{"start":8804.056,"end":8825.27,"text":"因為動保法第二項他只賦予獸醫師可使用人用藥物他並沒有授予獸醫師可以直接跟藥商買藥物那請問可以使用但是不能取得那怎麼使用那過去12年就是有這樣的紛擾啊沒有問題啊也是因為有這樣的紛擾所以最近才有這樣的新聞啊這些四組獸醫師才會出來抗議啊那如果都沒有紛擾請問你為什麼要修法我沒有要修法啊"},{"start":8834.336,"end":8855.884,"text":"你沒有要修法 那我問你辦法 我們現在談的是辦法還是凍保法是法律還是授權辦法好 那我問你 你的執法要怎麼修你的執法要怎麼修我們現在就是按照授權辦法現在還沒有實施嘛所以現在聽到說那個不實施嘛所以我們現在要重新調整"},{"start":8856.704,"end":8863.714,"text":"調整的結果是什麼調整的結果是送醫師全部都可以直接跟藥商買藥物嗎這相關的一些使用規定要重新檢討不是 部長你現在好 你執法已經高然而止了嘛那你執法現在的方向是什麼"},{"start":8874.921,"end":8887.037,"text":"執法的方向這個授權的辦法的訂定當然是主管機關跟我們來彙弦規定所以相關的細節的部分我們之後都會再進行你問你執法裡頭你會不會規定成說所有公道的藥物 獸醫都可以直接購買"},{"start":8892.684,"end":8911.856,"text":"執法你會不會修成說我們還會再找獸醫師還有相關的stakeholder來討論然後這個法規也必須經過預告的程序我只能說部長你真的非常不識人間煙火你不知道過去2012年一直到今天2026年市主跟獸醫師對於沒有辦法直接取得藥品的匯報然後大家"},{"start":8914.278,"end":8917.08,"text":"我認為在今日之前這些獸醫師取得藥品沒有問題但是您認為有問題"},{"start":8930.896,"end":8936.823,"text":"他取得藥品怎麼會沒有問題現在的機制就是現在的機制完全可以合法去取得那請問一下為什麼過去12年有這些紛擾沒有紛擾 過去12年沒有紛擾現在的紛擾的才是7月1號如果實施的話才會有紛擾那所以你們的執法"},{"start":8949.537,"end":8954.74,"text":"你們的執法為什麼會感染了你回答我執法為什麼你們要讓他開始因為我們認為7月1號這樣實施會有紛擾現在沒有紛擾你告訴我什麼紛擾沒有你就告訴我什麼紛擾7月1號實施的執法會有什麼紛擾因為現在沒有去強制規定"},{"start":8965.726,"end":8983.13,"text":"分成兩類一種是由藥商直接供應一種是由藥局供應目前沒有這樣分都可以7月1號的辦法時是就分流一種只能藥商供應一種只能藥局供應那這個在事實上確實會造成分老請問一下那個檔檢署是這樣嗎來告訴我們答案問題的其一部長講的也是其中的一項"},{"start":8991.152,"end":9012.244,"text":"以上怎麼樣也就是說像現在在這個辦法裡面人的用藥那你人用藥要經過登錄以後才能轉用藥所以這個會不跟你討論7月1號我跟你討論現行的現行的現行的那請問一下藥商獸醫師要如何取得"},{"start":9013.084,"end":9018.548,"text":"要如何現在現行規定就是藥商701種藥都可以跟藥商來買嗎報告委員目前的暫行的時候那個藥商是直接可以供應給售醫院的目前執行是這樣的那如果是這樣為什麼要修4條2項"},{"start":9033.729,"end":9062.026,"text":"沒有沒有沒有四條二項已經是法源了已經第四條二項已經是法源了現在是這個的管理辦法裡面那有很多就是當時的一個架構上是說人要歸人要那你要動保用藥那你要動保藥的機制去管它所以你要人用到這個登錄為動保用藥才可以使用但也因為說這個時空背景改變跟實際上真的會限制到現在目前的"},{"start":9063.027,"end":9086.667,"text":"他們在做治療上的這個這些的使用的便利性跟即時性所以才會做大幅度的修正往更完善的方向來走我覺得我覺得我們的官員跟民間獸醫師跟這個事主的認知完全不一樣完全是兩個平行時空如果今天不是取得藥物有困難的話為什麼會有這麼沉痛的發生為什麼他們會有"},{"start":9091.431,"end":9108.814,"text":"在這個4月10號的公聽會你們招架不住然後呢會讓整個執法的實施感染而止不是那個包委員也就是說針對這個辦法裡面那收集大家的意見確實覺得有自愛難行就是說有些的結還是要打開所以才會慎重重視這個議題所以重新要來制定一個辦法一個辦法"},{"start":9116.696,"end":9122.89,"text":"法規命令的這個辦法那依照一些相關不管動保也好或者動保法或其他的"},{"start":9123.82,"end":9139.667,"text":"能夠讓我們請食藥署署長醫事法50條醫事法50條可以供應藥品的藥事法50條可以供應藥品的請你念一下好嗎第二款有哪些地方第二款醫院我幫你念診所機關團體學校的醫療機構或檢驗學術機構買賣請問一下這裡有提到售醫院嗎"},{"start":9147.43,"end":9171.238,"text":"評委員報告一下 您剛才提到的這個相冊這個上面都寫好就是因為對於人用藥品要供到動物醫院裡面在108年5月21號FDA藥治第108-901-4612號函之藥業工協會與房檢署人用藥品於用於犬貓及飛機動物之使用管理辦法正式實施前"},{"start":9172.358,"end":9189.537,"text":"就是現在就是實施前藥商仍可供應人用藥品與動物機構為應遵循相關的事項表示說這個沒有實施之前其實都可以供的所以這個一點就是因為預告好像是在7月1號本來嘛"},{"start":9190.077,"end":9206.269,"text":"所以就會有些改變在這改變沒有契約要還沒到之前其實都還沒發生都可以供那如果是這樣如果是這樣的話請問你要釋法要不要修因為你那個只是行政函事你的行政函事會不會有抵觸要釋法之慾你的行政函事是不是要修"},{"start":9207.33,"end":9225.532,"text":"部長他還特別提到了 因為藥術法沒有規定的地方其實在動保法裡面有相關的規定的時候他就可以按照那部分 當到一些公要那我現在請問一下我們的衛福部推給這個農業部嘛 去修法嘛那請問一下動保法裡頭可不可以來一條叫做不受醫事法50條的限制"},{"start":9227.194,"end":9247.931,"text":"我們可以來一條這樣嗎 因為完全就是跟鑰匙法50條的限制跟委員報告一下動物保法第四條的第二項裡面當動物用藥不足之時 其實已經寫很清楚了不足的時候呢 可以用人藥過去協助那就是不足啊 現況就是不足啊就是可以用人藥啊"},{"start":9250.393,"end":9278.627,"text":"法院已經有了法院已經有了可以用人要啊就是取得就受到鑰匙法50條的限制啊所以50條也要連代修啊那你剛剛講的函式其實你們已經認同嘛只是法規沒有相對應的背印上來那如果衛福部這邊不想動你們寶貴的鑰匙法可不可以來動一下動保法那可是動保法要寫一句話叫做不受依釋法50條的限制你要這樣啊法院才清楚啊你不能夠用抵觸鑰匙法的函式在刑事好嗎"},{"start":9279.767,"end":9291.796,"text":"法源非常清楚了啦那如果法源清楚為什麼要第四條第二所以現在沒有問題嘛所以現在沒有要修動保法嘛現在要修訂的還沒有實施的這個辦法好 那我現在請問一個問題啦第四條第二項如果可以解讀成說它有跟藥商買藥的權限如果可以解讀的話這個前提你們認同嘛那為什麼你們7月1號制定的卻是兩套標準而其中有一套"},{"start":9307.347,"end":9317.437,"text":"去抵觸母法的規定那你們承不承認你們執法有問題嗎他只是管理上把他去沒有啊就不能買啦只有被化為東寶藥物才能夠去強調商買你們聽你們的解釋701項現在全都可以買"},{"start":9323.823,"end":9338.517,"text":"然後你們的執法呢 把701項區分為兩種 只有114項才可以購買那我現在就不懂啊 你的執法 你們怎麼頭腦不清楚去制定了一個抵觸線型就可以701項完全購買的藥物沒有抵觸 完全沒有抵觸"},{"start":9345.438,"end":9361.548,"text":"好那現在另外一個問題我不想跟你陳口舌之爭反正這是直播的大家有眼睛有耳朵看得一清二楚聽得非常的清晰我不想爭執那我想問一件事可不可以正面就是給動物用的用藥可不可以負面表列"},{"start":9362.662,"end":9389.008,"text":"因為目前是701項算是正面表列嘛那可不可以負面表列我想法規上您最清楚在第四條第二項的寫法我那麼清楚還被你光了20分鐘的時間不斷的打臉這是你口中清楚的我嗎你非常的清楚在第四條這邊寫得很清楚在動保法第四條第二項它是公告人用藥品類別這是正向表列的寫法"},{"start":9390.666,"end":9415.174,"text":"你也可以解讀成是負向表列啊你也可以解讀你也可以解讀負向表列啊法律的解釋本來就是有擴張解釋、限縮解釋、目的性解釋、核限式解釋啊你也可以解釋成負面那你現在不想負面就告訴我說法條看起來是正面哪裡有正面這兩個字啊啊你不是說我頭腦很清楚法學很清楚那我的法律見解就在這邊啊好那我收回我剛剛的說法"},{"start":9416.654,"end":9430.753,"text":"我覺得你要收回的可能不是只有這一句可能是從明槍起跑一直到現在你每一句話都要都要收回 部長我問你一個問題到底現在市主跟受益的心聲你有沒有掌握 掌握到哪裡 請你分享給我知道"},{"start":9431.601,"end":9454.248,"text":"我們支持目前這個主管機關所公告的701項的所有人用藥品持續的使用在動物身上這就是我們的立場持續的使用在動物身上那取藥權呢沒有問題也可以跟藥商取取得法源依據呢第4條第2項法源依據的那如果有第4條第2項那這就夠啦為什麼還要再用執法"},{"start":9458.935,"end":9469.568,"text":"執法是在第三項啊對啊所以是有主管機關依照第四條第三項再去訂使用管理規定那所以現在就有法源了啊取得跟使用管理是兩回事"},{"start":9471.681,"end":9494.81,"text":"好 那我問你一件事7月1號你們把它分流為兩種一種叫人用藥物要去市主要去藥局購買一個叫凍飽藥物可以讓這個那個叫獸醫師直接取得你們分成AB兩套嘛那你的AB兩套不是抵觸你所謂的701項大開方便之門的現行法4條之二嗎那叫做使用管理規定"},{"start":9496.426,"end":9525.029,"text":"執法抵觸母法請問一下部長知道什麼效果嗎沒有抵觸啦哪裡沒有抵觸你本來701目前就沒有實施怎麼會抵觸那你的意思是有抵觸只是沒實施啊你講話要精確啊當時候訂的時候也是主管機關邀請了很多的單位大家一起討論過所以你現在是對啊那你現在為什麼那個懸崖勒馬嘎然而止讓他胎死苦中剛剛提到這個是造成在使用上取得一些不便利性所以重新檢討"},{"start":9528.789,"end":9558.152,"text":"主席已經站起來了並不是抵觸母法而不實施是在實施上的方便性要檢討那我現在最後一句話因為主席已經站起來主席其實給我們很充裕的攻防時間那主席謝謝你也讓我跟部長的對話能夠呈現在世人的眼前然後大眾我想就交給大眾公平那我最後只講一句話為什麼會引起這樣軒然大波就是從2012年一直到現今已經快14年了關於"},{"start":9559.192,"end":9570.197,"text":"市主跟獸醫他們要取得藥物困難重重有些甚至是去偷買市區偷買好那我現在直接講一句啦如果可以取得藥物那請問一下為什麼藥商害怕賣給這些獸醫師呢請問為什麼"},{"start":9575.74,"end":9590.036,"text":"如果今天是合法可以取得為什麼由我講2012年的前提就是害怕賣給獸醫師呢這個問題好好去思考一下就好了那沒有問題反正我今天兩個訴求第一個訴求就是希望能夠正面表列負面表列但是"},{"start":9590.717,"end":9606.694,"text":"署長顯然不認同收回他的話那第二個問題呢就是我們希望能夠修法有一個長治久安的一個基礎不再困擾事主跟獸醫師而且讓我們毛小孩的健康權生命權用藥權能夠得到最大的保障好那謝謝謝謝協會委員會的諮詢現在休息十分鐘"},{"start":9638.131,"end":9658.26,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":9681.724,"end":9682.525,"text":"夾眼睛"},{"start":9700.638,"end":9700.798,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":10195.667,"end":10197.307,"text":"現在繼續開會現在請廖偉祥委員質詢"},{"start":10235.94,"end":10245.105,"text":"謝謝盧縣議召委那我們先請我們衛福部時部長以及我們房檢署的杜署長有請時部長杜署長"},{"start":10250.073,"end":10266.921,"text":"大家今天都很關心這個題目所以感謝主席安排我想還是先從杜署長開始如果部長要補充的再補充所以今天有兩個跟動物有關的問題要向農業部請教先談寵物用藥"},{"start":10268.982,"end":10290.351,"text":"在你們在2015年的時候有修所謂的動保法第四條那授權農業部定管理辦法結果拖了九年到了2024年才發布那還給了兩年緩沖期兩年730天左右你們自己書面報告寫的701項公告藥品完成登錄的只有114項只有兩成"},{"start":10294.193,"end":10302.319,"text":"請問一下署長這兩年的緩衝期有沒有設專人主案輔導藥商來登錄有或沒有好"},{"start":10303.075,"end":10329.195,"text":"有其實這兩年的時候我們總共開過了相關的會議有15場15場那為什麼只有兩成不到只有兩成而已所以這個就是在原來的辦法裡面其實對於人用藥轉為動保用藥它第一個它綁住了它有這個登錄的問題那第二個它是有這個貼標的問題也就是說它會增加很多的成本跟人事上跟他們"},{"start":10330.035,"end":10344.495,"text":"所以這些問題不是也一直存在這麼多年了那為什麼只有這樣子那你現在要怎麼改不是所以現在就是因為有這些他們所有的聲音以及他們裹足不前的這些的部分那我們大概都納入到我們在解決的辦法"},{"start":10347.559,"end":10375.096,"text":"其實我這樣算一算剛剛這樣講起來已經是十年的事情其實已經非常的久了那到現在還在用這個理由推脫這根本就是行政怠惰或者是你行政無能因為我要憑良心講你們這次的事件導致的問題非常的多我們是站在四組的角度大家非常憂心你們7月1號上路可是這事情明明已經十年的時間了結果你到現在登錄才兩成"},{"start":10376.276,"end":10404.593,"text":"這根本就是你們行政太多然後你造成什麼問題你知道嗎本席也接受到民間的陳情本來六月中的時候他們還想這個有民間有這個協會啊還找了不管是獸醫師團體也好或者是找這個藥師團體也好各個團體大家本來要和諧一起舉辦相關的寵物家年華結果你今天這樣一搞這個活動幾乎他們就不想要互相幫忙也不想要在那個活動裡面互相協辦"},{"start":10405.814,"end":10417.86,"text":"所以這根本我想要表達的事情是這件事情你們的行政怠惰你的行政無能已經導致產生這樣子的問題而且讓四組很擔憂之外也讓這些團體好像變成是互為敵人"},{"start":10420.031,"end":10439.785,"text":"署長我跟委員報告法案的形成一定有它的背景那到了113年2月26號公告之前那也三次的預告的會議那基本上相關的利害關係人溝通無誤所以才開始溝通到公告所以才會有113年2月26號的公告辦法那署長請問為什麼變成這樣那公告以後有兩年的緩衝時間也就今年的7月要實施"},{"start":10448.351,"end":10459.111,"text":"剛剛我也聽到劉建國委員說啊這個你剛剛有講說時空背景不同嘛十年多來的那你所謂的時空背景不同具體到底是什麼為什麼什麼到底什麼原因你可以搞成這個樣子"},{"start":10461.055,"end":10481.748,"text":"所以我跟委員在做報告其實在這個辦法裡面當時是有一些的規範也就是說當我動物醫院要使用藥的時候我不單純只是來自於動保用藥我用人用藥轉到動保用藥他一定要登錄這個細節我們相關細節都知道那我就具體請問一下那我就具體請問一下現在我想醫用氧氣是動物手術跟急救的基本需求"},{"start":10489.753,"end":10507.872,"text":"是那請問署長你們農業部有沒有發函給所謂氧氣供應商告訴他們這個過渡期可以繼續供貨給動物醫院有或沒有我跟108年衛福部新聞告訴所有的藥商跟藥局就是"},{"start":10508.294,"end":10531.09,"text":"在這個暫行期間這個的供應其實是無語的那現在可以嗎是無語的現在可以嗎那現在現在還是一樣因為辦法沒有實施而且甚至已經註銷所以現在還是適用完全適用因為我跟你說部長還有部長我跟你們說其實部分的供應商其實已經擔心違法那也開始拒絕供貨那我想請問一下假設凌晨兩點的時候這些這個家長毛小孩的家長們假設貓咪心臟病發"},{"start":10538.295,"end":10552.834,"text":"受醫師說他需要氧氣但是供應商不敢賣那現在就是發生了這樣的問題那你要不要你要不要去具體的在這裡說現在可以然後甚至你去發函告訴這些供應商請他不用擔心違法是"},{"start":10554.235,"end":10566.765,"text":"其實在4月10號的時候就已經有做這樣的一個決定那會不會同意再次行文發函給所有的供應商也就是我們的經銷商或藥商好你們會發嗎那什麼時候要發那現在什麼時候要發"},{"start":10572.533,"end":10598.707,"text":"跟委員說明其實剛剛署長也有提到在108年這個食藥署就已經發過一個函在這個辦法實施之前藥商都可以供應所以只要你們在這裡明確講這件事我們在替這些事主這些毛小孩的爸媽要讓他們安心然後呢因為這段時間你也要讓這些供應商安心因為你雖然說你暫緩了"},{"start":10600.908,"end":10630.388,"text":"但是現在還是有相關的法規限制還是有存在的那藥商賣藥給獸醫院在法律上他會覺得有風險對不對所以你現在暫緩憑良心講不等於解決啊說實在獸醫師他每天在法律風險中救命所以你應該要趕快我的訴求啊我的訴求很簡單第一個你兩週內或者是最好是這一週你就可以去發函好就發函然後呢韓氏說他們現在不會有這個遇到所謂違法的問題他可以這樣使用"},{"start":10631.008,"end":10645.087,"text":"那再來一個月內要解決這個醫用氧氣你要確保這些這個不管是各個醫院他都可以用到足夠的這些氧氣讓這些毛小孩在急診的時候可以安全無虞"},{"start":10649.059,"end":10664.868,"text":"好 委員我跟您報告 氧氣在被存在獸醫院這事情是目前制度還是繼續進行所以不會 因為如果說7月1號如期實施這個辦法 當然大家就會有恐懼但也有解套的方法 但如果現在是沒有問題原來不是"},{"start":10667.589,"end":10681.882,"text":"我是說假設7月1號也有一個解決方法就是用寄存的方式寄存的方式但現在沒有那個辦法實施所以現在維持現在的制度上是沒有所以你就承諾我我剛剛訴求蠻簡單的第一你要含釋封含好不好含釋告訴大家這個沒有問題大家不用擔心有這個違法法律風險好這是第一件事第二件事情就是你要承諾這些事情都是可以做到的不會因此"},{"start":10695.113,"end":10700.337,"text":"讓他們沒有所謂的氧氣可以容應因為現階段我們就是有收到對但是我們就是有收到相關的擔憂跟陳情我才會在這裡跟你提出質疑我現在就是要你把這件事情講出來這樣你懂嗎確定喔可以承諾嗎跟委員承諾啦就是說下一個應該是有農業部他會發一個函來註銷這一個管理辦法"},{"start":10716.857,"end":10729.392,"text":"那麼在註銷這個管理辦法的同時我們食藥署也會再發一個函在這個辦法沒有新的辦法實施之前那麼藥商能量可以供應這個相關的701項的藥品包含這個醫用氣體所以你們現在的這個辦法究竟是暫緩還是廢除"},{"start":10739.762,"end":10763.748,"text":"註銷 註銷了 註銷了要用一個新的辦法對不對好這個事情也要講清楚好那再來我要再問第二個問題喔也是請杜署長美濃的狗園啊349隻超量收容他上限是120那他的BCS是1到3喔那至少"},{"start":10764.795,"end":10785.105,"text":"無死那凍飽處裁罰四萬五沒有移送那據瞭解承諾發新聞但是也沒有發好這個不行這個部分請問一下我們署長有沒有掌握對不起委員雖然是在農業部但我是凍植物防疫檢疫署那這個的業務是屬於凍飽司那據我瞭解凍飽司應該在做處理了"},{"start":10787.346,"end":10815.808,"text":"有在處理那我要告訴你因為你們今天農業部來你算是最高的長官那我一定轉達好我跟你說沒有我要繼續講我現在就是要講給大家聽所以比較一下這個案子2022年的時候它的這個2022年桃園觀音案也有數十具的這個遺骸那罰了20多萬而且移送法辦那高雄這一次呢罰四萬五沒有移送那為什麼統一不動保法有兩種標準"},{"start":10818.203,"end":10826.28,"text":"對不對 那署長農業部作為中央主管機關你們應該要去主動介入或者是有沒有監督機制 有或沒有"},{"start":10828.617,"end":10849.595,"text":"絕對是有監督機制的動保法裡面其實規範的還相當好有監督機制可是看起來就完全就是有問題因為你們沒入84之後那還有一個叫原主要自行減量約80隻那這80隻去了哪裡有跨縣市移動嗎你們農業部有沒有辦法追蹤到"},{"start":10851.639,"end":10878.479,"text":"我跟委員報告一下如果說在於回到收容所的業務的時候其實是中央跟地方分工的不過我覺得這件事情我還是要請中央地方分工沒有錯可是他跨縣市移動了這就像是這就是中央部會本來就應該我剛說你有沒有監管有沒有管理的機制好那他移動了你有沒有辦法知道他移動去了哪裡那你們有沒有統籌機制是請問有或沒有在"},{"start":10879.92,"end":10897.465,"text":"有來嗎沒有來是好那個委員我這樣講啦針對的這個的部分那我們是不是會後可以提供處理的請會後提供給本市報告好那因為我想要再問那全全國的188間的民間狗場合法的有幾間所以"},{"start":10901.413,"end":10925.172,"text":"我們不是主管機關 所以還是我好 那我在這裡告訴大家 林那公立收容8000隻 遊蕩犬有16萬那高雄流向民間最多那84隻僅3隻進了公立那其餘的有TSPCA承擔那募款要443萬動保法也有沒有向市主追討安置費的法源請農業部如果有任何人知道都可以回答"},{"start":10931.263,"end":10958.06,"text":"就好沒有只能請棟寶師整體性針對好那你這個請你也記錄下來因為我查的就是沒有好430萬民間承擔300多隻狗不當飼養啊只罰了4萬5一隻狗的命喔只值了150塊喔150塊所以我覺得這個已經是完全有兩兩套標準所以我最後的訴求喔就是四個書面喔第一個兩週內要"},{"start":10961.861,"end":10983.967,"text":"這個發函函式剛剛所謂的要確保這些供應商還有這些獸醫師他們都可以不會覺得在遊走在法律邊緣然後要盡速解決我剛剛說的去了解究竟這些供應商他們有沒有因為這樣子不供應氧氣然後要去了解每一個獸醫院他在急診的部分這個使用有沒有問題"},{"start":10984.887,"end":10998.429,"text":"然後呢兩週內或者是你們會後直接可以的話就提供給我你們我剛剛說的這個高雄的案子他的這八十支犬的去處還有一個月內大量的飼養納管方案"},{"start":10999.726,"end":11026.136,"text":"我要說政府花了這個整件事情花了11年準備這個寵物用藥的制度結果到現在看起來是一塌糊塗結果讓茅海有醫生可能卻沒有藥用 擔心啊那地方政府又面對這樣子重大的虐待案罰四萬五連安置費都要民間募款制度我想是人做的那制度失靈也是人造成的然後你們造成的時候導致了這麼多的問題"},{"start":11027.176,"end":11036.243,"text":"所以我要的不是口號 是你們具體的時間表和時間好 謝謝主席好 謝謝廖偉祥委員的諮詢謝謝委員謝謝施崇亮部長現在請陳瑩委員諮詢謝謝主席 麻煩請石部長請石部長"},{"start":11057.279,"end":11069.798,"text":"莊委員好部長好我最近有看到一篇中央社的報導是有關於這個個縣市65歲以上超高齡人口的比例那我們從這張簡報的標題"},{"start":11073.423,"end":11091.941,"text":"台北市的佔比是24.18%是全國第一那乍看之下我們很容易就認為說因為台北市的比例是最高的所以衛福部應該投入的這個長照資源看起來好像也是應該是最高那我不知道這樣的論點部長認為是不是一個絕對正確的論點"},{"start":11096.625,"end":11115.981,"text":"因為我們的長照是服務跟著人走所以當然人口數多的地方他相對的分配他的資源就比較多但是我們在有一些計畫在實施上還會考慮到他的財政能力分級而有不同的補助的比例所以這個是兩個"},{"start":11117.622,"end":11135.638,"text":"那我想是這樣子 就是很多人看到就是說這些表象的數據是很容易就立刻會被誤導那如果說我們去考慮到縣市別這個人口的平均壽命可能答案就完全不一樣了"},{"start":11136.579,"end":11151.279,"text":"那我這邊也稍微提一下就是說因為台北他24.18%那台東也人口數這個老人人口數的這個占比也大概21%左右"},{"start":11153.081,"end":11174.568,"text":"那因為也有可能我是說台北市的比例高於台東那有可能是就是說台北市的這個醫療資源比較豐沛所以長者在各項疾病跟長照上他可以得到的處理是比較優的所以他可能壽命因此就延長"},{"start":11175.868,"end":11195.907,"text":"台東一樣就是說他醫療資源相對就貧瘠了許多那再加上我們那邊工作機會很少所以很多年輕人都跑光光跑到外地去所以造成說我們的比例的換算上其實那個理由原因可能是不太一樣的那我們這張"},{"start":11198.269,"end":11213.238,"text":"簡報是原住民跟全體國民的平均壽命的比較資料是內政部發布的最新的112年的數據顯示原住民族的平均壽命是73.25男性是68.73女性77.75歲跟我們全國人民的平均壽命是"},{"start":11225.265,"end":11249.032,"text":"這個80.23比較起來差了將近7年的壽命所以從這個國民平等的這個角度來看的話呢原住民可以享受到政府的長照資源等於少了7年不過還好就是衛福部呢在這個長照2.0的時候呢雖然就是已經有放寬原住民55歲就可以使用這些長照資源這是很不錯的"},{"start":11249.912,"end":11278.532,"text":"那不過請不要忘記過去委員積極爭取各項在這個園民區會有特別的調整是謝謝部長我想做球給你你又把球做給我了好那就是說我們但是我們不要忘記就是說很多這個健康的問題還是65歲以後他才慢慢顯現出來所以我們還是應該要去關注這個整個縣市層級的資源分配"},{"start":11281.694,"end":11308.472,"text":"我看到了原住民人口占了超过三分之一的台东县还有花莲 屏东这些原住民都比较多的县市在事实上使用长照获得给付的比例它还是偏低特别是在专业服务上面在113年给付的人数占所有长照服务项目当中是最低的全年不到1500人"},{"start":11309.893,"end":11324.091,"text":"那我还特别看了这个失智跟失能的服务机构大部分都围绕在台东市的周边其他偏乡地区的部落要使用其实还是很不方便的"},{"start":11325.032,"end":11348.703,"text":"最近也特別要感謝卓院長對台東鄉親的關心在本月的4日也視察了台東樂齡社福大樓的工程進度也特別謝謝石部長在3月27日的時候有聽取本席跟莊瑞雄委員還有饒縣長對於台東縣財務的支持"},{"start":11352.245,"end":11381.013,"text":"不知道就是說長照3.0原住民的部分以及這個卓院長的指示在這個衛福部是不是可以稍微說明一下目前的這個相關規劃跟進度好很謝謝委員提醒的就是因為產化法修法之後讓這個台東的這個財力分級呢大幅的躍升從本來是第五級跑到了第四級第一級去了"},{"start":11381.653,"end":11407.899,"text":"所以落差實在是太大但是我們也了解像委員提到的其實還有很多資源是相對上是缺乏所以我們還是會以中央的資源那麼雖然中央的資源也變少了但是我們願意更多的投入在這個偏鄉特別是台東這樣的一個資源不足的地區所以在各項的補助條件上我們都會按照"},{"start":11409.519,"end":11436.528,"text":"這個舊的比例來給予支持那當然另外也得考慮到地方的特殊性所以在這個部落的部分那麼應該要有有別於一般的這個長照的布點我們也在討論當中比如說在談的這個住宿式的機構我們傳統都是這種機構式的住宿式機構那麼是不是現在有所謂的共生宅"},{"start":11437.248,"end":11465.38,"text":"那更貼近於部落的需求這個目前我們也在規劃中也會先從這個部落這邊去優先的推動那另外相關的獨居老人的計畫我們也會先針對那麼資源比較不足的地方優先去推動那在這邊也是稍微提醒一下在部落大樓不多所以我不曉得你們的公生宅是都會去可能在大樓裡面那其他其他的可能你們就也要再思考一下"},{"start":11466.4,"end":11484.981,"text":"我們回到這個長照服務機構這個ABC的分部來談本席有發現就是很多A級跟B級的單位他是同時要支持好幾個鄉鎮的這個照護就像這個聖母醫院聖母居家護理所他要"},{"start":11486.482,"end":11505.029,"text":"它服务范围要涵盖泰玛里乡大武乡达仁乡的居家护理的服务但是它的地址是在台东市事实上就是说其实它距离也是很长范围也很广或许在实施的难度上"},{"start":11506.609,"end":11533.755,"text":"它會有一些挑戰所以透過遠距的視訊服務還有巡迴式定點的服務就相對很重要了雖然目前我們台東對於主要提供原住民長照服務的這些文件站在數量上有很多的提升當然它的優點就是說它既靈活又便利"},{"start":11535.435,"end":11557.171,"text":"但是就是說在文件站可以服務的專業項目僅僅是比較基礎的這些血壓量測還有健康促進等等而且主要它是由這個園民會負責可是長照3.0它真正的專業服務其實還是由衛福部這邊在負責"},{"start":11558.812,"end":11578.51,"text":"那我今天在這裡想要特別提出以下的建議給衛福部就是第一個是希望你們能夠規劃提供這個巡迴服務的資源以台東為事辦的縣市因為你台東做好了你台東長照能做好你其他縣市一定做得好"},{"start":11579.833,"end":11599.684,"text":"因為利用這個長照台東縣的這個照管中心跟各個A級機構的這個能量來補助設備跟預算巡迴前往各個部落的文件站來提供這個輔具跟居家無障礙環境改善補助申請的這個評估評估與服務以及這個"},{"start":11601.265,"end":11628.306,"text":"物理與這個職能治療師的居家賦能還有營養諮詢護理指導等等還有針對這個五至八級失能者到載沐浴車糖尿病的逐步照護等等這些長照專業的特殊服務因為我前面講到的這個各個A級的機構當然我們從這個申請 核定這些繁瑣的程序其實"},{"start":11628.806,"end":11654.712,"text":"我們來看一下這個A級的機構的分佈大部分應該都是A級機構在台東來講應該都是醫院醫院在負責那我們看一下這個台東全長一百七十幾公里但是呢這四家A級的機構全部集中在台東市那如果以在這個根深路跟傳廣路為中間"},{"start":11656.912,"end":11685.003,"text":"三家聖母醫院基督教醫院還有這個台東部立醫院大概車程五分鐘那馬街在過去一點車程八分鐘左右八到十分鐘左右所以四個A級機構在全長一百七十幾公里的台東呢全部集中在台東市所以當然在這些在這些專業的服務上整個申請到執行核定執行"},{"start":11686.823,"end":11703.255,"text":"整個這個程序就是服務很集中地理很分散加起來等於就是延遲作業然後甚至在這過程當中還有很多長者是放棄的所以特別所以這個巡迴的服務就很重要了"},{"start":11704.434,"end":11722.835,"text":"那再來我看了就是依據你們行政院核定的這個長照10年計劃3.0未來文件站它你們規劃是要把它升級強化這個長照資源互助網長照資源互助網這樣子的一個概念"},{"start":11725.325,"end":11749.234,"text":"看起來就是說我是建議說讓文件站可以跟這個長照管理中心來連線然後遠端提供健康醫療長照護等等的諮詢服務以及這個協調交通服務居家服務喘息服務等等這些文件站過去都沒有辦法提供的服務那"},{"start":11750.815,"end":11757.767,"text":"另外就是說順道因為這個服務的項目增加了可是文件站的照服員"},{"start":11759.144,"end":11784.987,"text":"他的薪水也大概就是三萬多那這個部分因為他們的工作量項目會增加所以是不是在薪水的部分也一併希望能夠來做調整這個部分不曉得部長看法怎麼樣因為至少起碼可以跟長照機構服務員的薪水四萬五到七萬這個差距不要那麼大"},{"start":11786.708,"end":11809.421,"text":"謝謝委員提出這樣的建議就是以這個巡迴服務跟遠距服務來補在地資源的不足這個方向上我們覺得非常支持所以我們再到委員辦公室詳細的討論那麼以台東我們來試辦把這些文件站充分的利用"},{"start":11810.081,"end":11833.519,"text":"請你們提早來規劃因為平常文件站的照服員其實他們就是說因為大家都知道到市區去這個醫院的距離很遙遠所以有時候他們還要在工作之餘要額外帶長者去市區去看病有時候還要去幫他們取藥很多然後甚至颱風天他們都還要主動一個一個去檢查"},{"start":11834.4,"end":11862.366,"text":"那現在這個問題在於就是說我想請問就是說這文件在照服員在一般這樣認知上是可以領加班費的嗎如果額外加班費如果他是勞基法的適用人員當然就是可以好那我想請問一下在總預算在他們的整個預算編列上有加班費這個項目嗎這個我要了解一下對所以要請你們了解一下好"},{"start":11864.747,"end":11876.941,"text":"那希望部長可以就是說可以體會本席今天質詢的用意啦那我們不要表面上被這個數據所誤導那很多原住民的長者他沒有獲得這個到"},{"start":11878.723,"end":11896.217,"text":"就是沒有獲得政府服務跟補助的資訊喔那甚至有需求呢其實也是不知道要怎麼申請那地方政府的人力跟物力其實都很有限所以更需要中央政府好特別很細心好主動的去這個去體諒所以希望"},{"start":11899.88,"end":11925.338,"text":"這個部長可以跟衛福部的這些官員們可以聽進去然後而且真的把資源投入進去那我們的思考就從台東開始因為它的它就是最長然後最善然後長照最困難做好的地方所以我才會說你如果台東做得好那我們整個台灣長照一定做得好好謝謝好謝謝謝謝委員我們來努力"},{"start":11927.6,"end":11931.363,"text":"謝謝陳穎委員的諮詢現在請庭權局委員諮詢好 謝謝主席喔 那請我們石部長還有我們行政院經貿談判辦公室的徐秘書請石部長 請徐秘書"},{"start":11957.165,"end":11962.919,"text":"主委好好謝謝部長那我這個先請教一下我們徐秘書"},{"start":11964.754,"end":11993.759,"text":"請問一下我們台美互惠貿易協定就是ART是那時候針對我們在今年針對美國農產品還有就是我們豬肾牛肉還有汽車醫藥市場針對這些開放的承諾是今年開放嘛對不對這一年簽訂的對不對對這個是二月簽訂的內容那包括了您剛有提到了有些部分是屬於這個關稅的部分有些是屬於非關稅措施的部分"},{"start":11994.119,"end":12014.953,"text":"是2月12號簽訂嘛那針對像我們美國農產品我們豬肾牛肉這些開放我們放寬萊克多巴胺放寬這個標準那在這部分我們在簽訂之前我請問一下那像我們衛福部農業部知道我們有放寬這個標準嗎"},{"start":12016.875,"end":12033.112,"text":"其實我們那個談判團隊都是一起一起工作的一起討論所以知情嘛即使去美國談判也是那個相關部會也都是有代表所以就是衛福部跟農業部在我們簽訂之前大家都討論過所以都是知情的那石部長也在現場"},{"start":12035.234,"end":12061.584,"text":"我沒有在現場不過這個前面在前置作業上呢相關的要簽訂的內容上我們都有經過一些評估好那所以在這簽訂之前石部長也是了解我們針對我們這個瘦肉精這個萊劑的部分我們簽訂是預計就是要再放寬嗎應該是說來follow這個國際的標準就是按照Codex的標準就是比之前再放寬嗎"},{"start":12062.404,"end":12082.878,"text":"就按照Torquex標準但是比我們之前是放寬的嘛部分的部分做調整部分是放寬的就像我們豬腎就是我們講豬腰的部分好像從本來的0.04ppm放寬到0.09ppm我們應該是這樣講Cordex的標準還有日韓的標準都是0.09"},{"start":12084.119,"end":12101.201,"text":"那我們目前是0.04那未來我們會進行一些這個專家的討論跟這個作業怎樣所以後來簽訂就是知道就是要比之前還放寬啦對 就是比照CODES的標準好 所以這部分部長是知情的那但是我們"},{"start":12102.282,"end":12124.899,"text":"其實我們是針對我們美國貿易障礙評估報告就是NTE後來公布之後他在3月31號公布後來我們國人才知道這件事情所以其實簽訂的時候內容我們是並不知道的那等到美國公布這份評估報告之後後來我們才知道"},{"start":12125.479,"end":12144.188,"text":"原來針對這一部分像我們美國剛剛我們講的豬腎牛肉這一部分我們針對瘦肉精的部分是要放寬的我們是後來等美國這個報告出來之後我們才知情應該是在ART裡面就已經有提到了"},{"start":12145.489,"end":12172.756,"text":"但是我們國人知道的時候是等到美國公布我們才知道的因為事先並沒有ART風布的時候就知道就是在簽約這個洽簽這個對等貿易談判的時候對對但是我是說那你們你們談判辦公室跟行政院知道但是國人是等到美國這個評估報告出來其實國人才真正知道這件事情應該不是評估報告是最近的事情是之前那個ART"},{"start":12173.436,"end":12189.683,"text":"在2月的時候好那部長我請問一下那我們針對這部分開放那我們在做這個開放之前我們有沒有做安全的評估報告甚至還有針對食品衛生安全還有營養的諮議會我們有開過嗎有"},{"start":12192.844,"end":12219.142,"text":"跟委員說明 那麼我們也比對了我們跟我們現在的相對的這個萊克多巴胺的MRL的這個訂定的標準跟日韓等國以及CODES的落差那麼這裡面的最大落差主要是在腎臟所以我們在腎臟的使用的這個安全風險的部分去年有委託這個專家在進行這個健康風險的評估跟建議容許量"},{"start":12220.483,"end":12246.257,"text":"所以我們今年有這個評估報告嗎去年有去年所以我們提得出這個評估報告有有有我們有評估報告但是食品衛生安全及營養的執意會沒有開專家會議的部分因為這後續要進行的程序我們現在還沒有正式修訂嘛所以未來要修訂的時候自然就要經過這個程序我希望這部分要趕快做因為其實像蔡政府時期啊她在2020年"},{"start":12247.378,"end":12270.609,"text":"他8月中旬有公布說要在2021年元旦也是要正式開放讓我們這個標準放寬可是那時候我們有針對說沒有做安全評估報告這些有提出疑議所以當時他雖然前面沒有做可是後來他馬上在8月底的時候就馬上提出報告所以我們2月"},{"start":12272.529,"end":12285.683,"text":"簽訂然後到三月底其實公布之後國人才正式知道這個事情可是目前我們看到四月中我們這也沒有看到這安全評估報告還有專家學者這會議也沒有開"},{"start":12290.222,"end":12304.968,"text":"跟委員說明我們這一次其實已經提早在去年就完成這個健康風險評估的報告所以這個報告再送請給委員參考那後面的修訂的程序我們會按照法定的作業程序來進行"},{"start":12306.048,"end":12327.646,"text":"那我希望部長還有我們署長在這邊我們盡快把這個報告給我們胃膀委員會大家知道你之前做的這個評估報告還有專家學者這個食品衛生安全跟營養的諮議會也要趕快開讓民眾真正能夠了解放寬這個來劑之後對我們有沒有什麼其他的影響"},{"start":12328.326,"end":12355.381,"text":"因為我們要知道我們國人其實大家都知道其實像我們在萊劑他在肌肉殘留的部分沒有那麼高但是他在肝腎內臟的部分殘留是比較高的然後其實以飲食習慣來講歐美來講歐美的民眾一般他們是不吃內臟的但是我們國人的飲食習慣尤其我們婦女孕婦坐月子還有我們常常"},{"start":12356.161,"end":12380.654,"text":"我們國人會習慣吃一些什麼黑白切之類像我們豬肉啊還有肝啊腎啊還有什麼大腸什麼等等其實我們國人因為我們的我們自己養殖的豬我們是沒有打這個瘦肉精沒有打萊克多巴胺所以我們對於內臟的使用的部分我們包含孕婦啊坐月子等等我們都有習慣性是去吃這個內臟"},{"start":12383.675,"end":12390.358,"text":"那所以針對開放這部分將來這內臟你看從0.04ppm要開放到0.09ppm相對的這對於我們將來飲食習慣會常吃內臟對於我們對這安全評估報告我們希望也能夠了解因為這國人飲食習慣跟歐美是不一樣的"},{"start":12405.425,"end":12425.244,"text":"跟我們說明我們在做這個安全風險評估健康風險評估的時候也考量了國人的這個飲食習慣去做的調教近年的 去年的就有這樣的參考把肝腎都特別的著重那也考量到坐月子的時候的這個婦女的食用量去做的評估"},{"start":12426.085,"end":12448.734,"text":"第二個呢那我們當然除了我們自己的標準我們也會對照其他國家像日韓跟我們飲食習慣比較相近的那他們的標準也是按照CODES所以我們希望這安全評估報告一定要加入國人針對這內臟的飲食習慣這部分一定要加入因為這確實我們跟我們飲食習慣是不一樣的好的 好"},{"start":12449.554,"end":12467.629,"text":"那還有針對美國貿易障礙報告我們看到它針對我們跟台灣比較有關係的重點剛剛我也有聽到其他委員有在質疑現在我們這標準放寬之後我們以後針對這茶廠還有邊境這茶宴的部分"},{"start":12468.71,"end":12486.779,"text":"是不是應該更嚴格因為我們現在把標準放寬我們也擔心標準放寬你說0.01 0.04 0.09ppm但是你沒有去查驗我們擔心他甚至是超過甚至是更高的照來講現在放寬應該要查驗的更嚴格才對"},{"start":12487.459,"end":12515.797,"text":"跟委員說明我們從源頭就管理就源頭就包含要系統性查核那麼同時呢也有查廠的機制所以源頭的部分會把關那邊境的話我們也會有這個抽驗那如果有抽到我們還會提升這個抽驗的批次那另外在後市場的部分也嚴格的會做好這個標示產地的標示所以不論是散裝包裝或者是飲食場所都要明確的標示所使用的原產地"},{"start":12516.397,"end":12545.637,"text":"所以這個我們都會把關所以其實今天為什麼會提出來其實我們看到美國公布的這障礙報告針對涉台的重點我們看他針對美豬的部分看他寫台無正當理由下不對處理美豬台業者反覆稽查降低採購意願所以他在講他怕降低採購意願所以變成你沒有正當理由你不能反覆去抽查也就是說"},{"start":12546.577,"end":12571.393,"text":"你不能沒有理由你就去查驗可是我們的標準就是我就是要不斷的抽驗啊我不能等到發生問題之後偶爾有狀況發生我們才去查驗所以針對這個涉台重點好像跟部長講的好像不太一樣變成說你要去查驗要有理由那我們的標準是我就是要不斷的查驗尤其開放之後我標準要更高我查驗要更嚴格才對啊"},{"start":12571.973,"end":12594.83,"text":"跟委員說明我們在邊境的查驗都是採風險極速的風就是你長期都沒有查到有問題的他就降低查驗的批次那但是如果你被驗到有問題的就會提升抽驗的批次所以在有限的人力之下我們採風險查驗抽驗的方式在進行邊境的把關所以這個標準不會改變"},{"start":12596.932,"end":12611.691,"text":"好我希望部長因為我們看到他公布的其實我們是有餘力我剛講的是美豬你看他對美牛台R承諾解除特定美牛產口美牛產品進口禁令取消繁瑣"},{"start":12612.933,"end":12629.329,"text":"輸入口岸檢疫程序你看喔他針對美牛這個進口禁令他說叫我們要取消繁瑣輸入口岸檢這個檢疫的程序變成說他在要求我們不能"},{"start":12630.424,"end":12650.239,"text":"查驗這麼嚴格應該是這個有關美牛的部分是有另外一個議題他不是這個殘留量主要是這個BSE也就是我們常講的這個狂牛症那麼過去的BSE這個美國被這個在2013年的時候是被歸類在"},{"start":12652.441,"end":12673.193,"text":"風險可控制的國家啦所以我們有一些是禁止他進來可是他後來已經被改列為這個風險可忽略就是最安全等級按照這個WOLF的就是世界動物這個健康組織的規範呢他是全牛都可以進來所以他已經被改列了我們沒有這個與時的調整再加上這個"},{"start":12676.816,"end":12688.113,"text":"2023年的時候也重新定義了這個BSE分為只有典型的BSE才是風險物所以我們要根據它去做調整它指的是說我們沒有與時俱進的這個風險調整部長沒關係 其實喔"},{"start":12691.838,"end":12712.774,"text":"我就講說針對其實我們看到他這個報告涉台重點對於我們來講要嚴格查驗可是針對他的報告其實看起來是要我們放寬而且還告訴我們說沒有正當理由你就不能去查然後也不能那麼繁瑣要取消繁瑣所以這跟我們講的查場跟邊境查驗我們說放寬標準應該要更嚴格可是"},{"start":12716.617,"end":12743.746,"text":"看起來他要求是我們要更寬鬆所以我希望部長還是要針對我們的食安防線現在我們這個標準你說因為對於美國關稅的問題去做這個談判的協議我們放寬可是我覺得國安這個食安的防線我們還是要堅守我們的最底線因為這個食品食安的問題還是希望我們衛福部能夠堅守食安跟健康的把關我們會堅守"},{"start":12745.146,"end":12767.051,"text":"對啊因為我們看這報告好像跟部長講的好像不太一樣但是我希望我們還是要嚴格查驗啦這個食安的問題沒有繁瑣的問題只有標準我們雖然標準放寬可是我們查驗一定要更加的嚴格還有我們針對牛脂牛血這半成品"},{"start":12768.154,"end":12791.522,"text":"那他這個這部分他的來機的部分有查驗嗎他有數據嗎這個主要是做飼料這個不是進入所以他沒有針對他的來機的殘留的標準沒有數據沒有查驗沒有他是進入到飼料進入飼料但是他進來是半成品嘛半成品然後後來進來乾燥做飼料對不對"},{"start":12794.496,"end":12810.462,"text":"應該是沒有進來過目前美方沒有對我說將來這個牛脂牛血進來是要做飼料是嗎對做飼料做飼料他是不是用乾燥的方式來說明一下跟委員會"},{"start":12812.491,"end":12833.585,"text":"跟委員報告如果是牛油脂進來的話它是精煉過後的產品那就是作為飼料的部分的原料那血粉的話它就是已經噴霧乾燥之後的也是作為飼料添加的一部分對啊就是到化製廠做成肉骨粉或者血粉添加然後給豬吃嘛做成飼料給豬吃嘛"},{"start":12834.978,"end":12852.348,"text":"我們在國內的話那個飼料管理法有規定就是它在這個反芻動物化是不能夠使用的所以不會有BSE傳播的風險我們現在擔心的就是我們國內養豬是不能添加瘦肉精不能添加萊劑對不對我們這個國內養豬是嚴格的標準因為其實我們國內剛剛有講國內國人的飲食習慣因為內臟這些我們都會吃所以這個就是我們"},{"start":12864.375,"end":12891.187,"text":"台灣豬為什麼溫體豬大家國人可以安心食用因為我們的養殖辦法我們養殖的方式我們不去添加這些瘦肉精等等所以我們內臟都可以食用可是我們現在擔心的是你牛脂牛血將來做飼料它乾燥我們乾燥之後把這些水分去掉之後其實它乾燥之後它的萊劑的比例是會增加的"},{"start":12892.418,"end":12916.218,"text":"那如果給豬吃我們有沒有這個數據豬吃這個飼料之後會不會殘留在我們台灣豬的體內跟委員報告依據我們這個飼料管理法的規定如果是這個反芻動物跟豬的話都是不能用這些肉骨粉、血粉作為飼料的原料的所以剛剛委員考量的這些品項是不會進到豬的飼料鏈的"},{"start":12918.88,"end":12945.118,"text":"這些也不能給豬吃嘛好我希望這部分一定要注意因為你做成飼料之後我們一定要嚴格把關我怕做成飼料之後那會不會礙於成本等等的問題他拿出給豬吃那豬吃了含有這個萊劑的這些飼料會被殘留在豬的體內變成本來豬沒有打瘦肉精結果他因為吃了飼料以後反而殘留在體內"},{"start":12947.301,"end":12959.567,"text":"所以這部分我如果說豬不能吃我希望我們衛福部還有我們主管單位這部分一定要嚴格來把關因為我們現在也擔心你看我們現在台灣豬農其實真的很擔心我們現在因為關稅的問題我們開放開放他進口"},{"start":12965.07,"end":12987.714,"text":"那其實為什麼要打這個瘦肉精打瘦肉精其實每頭豬的成本可以減5%到10%可以省下來這個成本那我們美國他打這個瘦肉精的豬本來成本就比我們便宜再加上我們要取消99%的關稅的減免那以後台灣豬農要何去何從"},{"start":12988.354,"end":12991.857,"text":"你們有沒有顧慮到我們臺灣豬農本來他又要顧環保又要顧飼料成本他成本會提個更高結果美國豬他打瘦肉精養的本來他的成本就很低又減低他的關稅以後這對臺灣豬農的衝擊我們有沒有考量過跟委員報告就是說在"},{"start":13009.712,"end":13032.644,"text":"這個豬肉的部分 國人還是習慣食用這個國產豬啦所以進口的這個豬肉的呢 只佔我們全部的大概8%而已那其中又來自於美國豬的比例又更低所以美國的豬肉只佔整個進口豬的大概一點多個%所以其實是很低啦 是很低啦"},{"start":13033.204,"end":13055.016,"text":"所以對於這個過去這幾年我們都密切的在關注那國人的這個飲食還是習慣是國產豬這進口豬的影響不大好所以我們還是要堅守我們這個豬肉的產地這個標示不管你是省莊等等一定要嚴格這個豬肉產地的標示過去我們不斷的在稽查"},{"start":13055.716,"end":13077.386,"text":"這個不論是散裝包裝或飲食場所都要明確標示原產地好所以剛剛部長你也講到一個重點因為我們吃台灣豬台灣豬溫體豬因為他沒有打萊劑所以我們安心使用所以我剛剛就講我們真的是擔心說到時候他又吃到了這飼料還有萊劑把我們整個台灣豬這個"},{"start":13078.987,"end":13103.917,"text":"這個政治標記又把它毀掉到時候萬一我們台灣豬結果又驗出裡面又有萊劑結果它成本又高那美國豬進來成本又低到時候對他們來講是雪上加霜所以這個部分不單是食安的問題還有我們台灣豬農這個權益我們要如何照顧我們的豬農也希望我們這一部分一定要嚴格把關所以針對剛剛講我們之前"},{"start":13106.438,"end":13111.96,"text":"我們針對來自這個風險評估報告那部長說有做針對國人我們飲食習慣這報告盡快提供給我們還有這專家學者的針對他們食品安全衛生營養的諮議會趕快開還有我們針對我們剩下剛剛我們講的針對"},{"start":13129.265,"end":13154.445,"text":"萊豬的部分還有牛的部分一定都要跟我們嚴格把關產地的部分一定要標示清楚還有絕對不能讓我們台灣豬去吃到含有萊劑用牛脂牛血的這樣乾燥的飼料讓我們萊豬去吃到一定要嚴格把關好 完全同意這個委員的看法我們會來執行好 謝謝謝謝童星君委員的質詢現在請林淑芬委員質詢"},{"start":13164.872,"end":13168.478,"text":"好 謝謝主席 是不是請我們石部長有請石部長林委員好部長辛苦了 中午了今年以來 這個"},{"start":13180.768,"end":13206.841,"text":"台大醫院研究大樓在1月29號台大醫院東址大樓在2月24號三軍總醫院松山分院在4月3號這兩家醫院有三起火災事件發生火災然後松山分院還是清明節連假的第一天然後台北市消防局獲報後立即提升為B級的這個火警"},{"start":13208.462,"end":13234.671,"text":"出動了53名的警消前往救援16分鐘以後撲滅火勢然後大家發現醫護啦民眾受影響大家都就地避難那我現在要談這個是因為啊2026今年到現在才多久的時間就有這個都教學型醫院大型的醫院然後火警見報"},{"start":13235.97,"end":13250.064,"text":"那台大還兩次那我們在講說這樣的火警都不是偶發的還不是偶發的單一事件你看從台大醫院說他們是建築施工然後設備安全火災預警"},{"start":13251.385,"end":13269.676,"text":"然後這個應變管理大家都開始睜大眼睛在檢視這些事情很難以想像就是說怎麼會像台大醫院東址是外部六樓的外部施工導致煙霧煙霧會跑到醫院裡面然後造成12樓13樓觸發警報外面的煙霧跑到大道裡面觸發警報"},{"start":13280.978,"end":13300.389,"text":"這個不是非同小可的事情啊在這種狀況裡面警鳴大作然後他也不是一次今年就兩次雖然沒有人員傷亡但是依照醫療事故預防及爭議處理法的第35條專案主管機關應該要組成專案小組做出這個調查報告請問你們有啟動調查嗎"},{"start":13309.132,"end":13331.174,"text":"跟委員說明 因為那個應該還不能夠列入我們這個醫療事故正義處理預防跟正義處理法的這個定義啦那個他還沒有屬於叫做醫療事故第315條它是事故預防危害公共衛生及安全或有危害之餘"},{"start":13332.973,"end":13360.368,"text":"但是他前面的那個法規在前第三條他在名詞定義上他有提到那你說中央還沒有構成要件那地方的火警調查火災調查原因是什麼這應該要因為他還是可能的一個公安事件所以按照醫療法本身他還是這個地方要去介入瞭解我們來追蹤這個事情很嚴重今年就兩次"},{"start":13361.428,"end":13381.088,"text":"那三種的是控制的病房 控制的病房沒有人大白忙 不明原因起火 這大事建築物的外部施工焊接引起火花 然後觸發警報控制的病房不明原因起火 這是正常的嗎 這絕對都不正常"},{"start":13384.147,"end":13405.081,"text":"那地方政府的調查你們對他的狀況怎麼樣我想聽起來好像你還是沒有去問沒有特別去沒有掌握嘛但是不是每次火警都要等到有人死亡我們才要去把它當成是重大事件去關注不是因為你必須見為知著啊"},{"start":13407.728,"end":13428.528,"text":"所以你從這裡就看到這個醫院醫院的管理有沒有問題一次兩次 台大耶然後現在講說因為醫院跟一般建築不同裡面是臥床的病人重症的病人行動不便者一旦失火他的風險不是一般的公共場所可以來相比你的"},{"start":13429.489,"end":13455.3,"text":"所以我現在跟你講說兩次然後都是教學型醫院然後控制的病房會起火這事情很嚴重的耶跟委員說明確實這個因為台灣很多醫院也相當老舊啦台大醫院也是他已經很久的我們聽不下去老舊老舊不要提出來談"},{"start":13456.4,"end":13470.633,"text":"再怎麼老舊也要確定這個醫療場所裡面的安全是更勝於其他公共場所的沒有錯就如同委員所提到的因為醫院裡面的住院病人相對的避難能力是比較差的"},{"start":13471.414,"end":13480.74,"text":"所以他所需要要求的防火相當的措施要更高所以我們去年開始就有一個輔導計畫你們的輔導計畫是什麼輔導計畫我們輔導當然是先從比較小型的醫院因為他們自己的能力比較不足所以我們先去輔導"},{"start":13493.809,"end":13520.885,"text":"那這個大型醫院的話你們輔導計畫的內容主要是什麼核心的那個點是什麼我們的輔導當然包含第一個就是它的防火設施還有它的這個那個建築安全它的設計那以及應變能力那些大概這一些因為去年年底剛好監察院也通過糾正屏東縣政府衛生局東港證供所還有衛福部"},{"start":13522.026,"end":13546.771,"text":"他們在年底去年12月26號糾正了你們地方政府主要的疏失以安泰醫院為例他合法的面積大概一半一半47.2都是非法的違建而且在2005年就開始了在那種狀況裡面地方政府放任違建醫院在違建內從事醫療使用到連"},{"start":13550.672,"end":13567.162,"text":"到去年 監察院去年2025年10月去履刊的時候現場仍然是違建 持續在使用當中現在政府也沒有依法勒令停止使用也沒有依法採取斷水斷電的處置火災的風險不是偶發 而是結構性的問題"},{"start":13575.637,"end":13602.953,"text":"這個問題消防署統計全國469家醫院在2005年到2024年之間一共發生過98件的火災起火的原因都以電氣因素最多佔56.1%起火的地點以機房居多佔13.3%而安泰醫院就是因為電氣因素加上機房起火"},{"start":13605.094,"end":13622.479,"text":"死了8個人我這個都是監察院的監察報告全國醫院評鑑的制度也出現了系統性的失靈我說的也是監察院的調查報告監察院指出全國有81家的醫院"},{"start":13623.932,"end":13639.135,"text":"屬於你講的中小型醫院類似安泰醫院他們都涉及違法擴充樓地板面積應列管的違建醫院竟然其中有70家這些都違建要列管的然後都還在營業的81家裡面有70家通過了衛福部的醫院評鑑"},{"start":13656.269,"end":13681.188,"text":"通過了醫院評鑑你們衛福部都給他評鑑通過所以顯然可以知道你們衛福部的對醫院公共安全的評鑑存在著系統性的微失而讓所有看病的這些民眾置於風險當中所以你動搖了人家對你們監督機制這種評鑑機制的信任"},{"start":13685.54,"end":13689.871,"text":"81間有70間通過你們的醫院評鑑你怎麼做 何感想"},{"start":13691.045,"end":13704.712,"text":"跟委員說明當然在這個評鑑的過程當中基於這個委員的專業啦他不見得有辦法看得那麼細所以通常在評鑑的同時會會同衛生局跟相關我現在沒有在看你們的委員看不看得這麼細啦相關的這個現在監察院說你們八十一斤都是這個有問題但這樣七十斤你也是讓他評鑑合格"},{"start":13717.39,"end":13735.29,"text":"這不是你們有問題嗎 沒有然後你們被點出來的四大缺失喔他們簡直就透過安泰醫院這個評鑑上的問題他點出你們四個問題第一個問題你們衛福部辦理安泰醫院的評鑑"},{"start":13737.132,"end":13750.083,"text":"這個早在2005、2007年就存在了結果你們的這種違建還在一半以上都是違建然後你們在2011年、2017年通通都繼續通過評鑑都通過第二個你們在2024年 這個在2011、2017都評鑑通過 合格喔合格喔在2024年他要辦理"},{"start":13766.495,"end":13792.436,"text":"這個評鑑2024年8月要辦理評鑑評鑑委員在上面清楚的寫出他的意見他說公安消防有缺失2024年的8月評鑑委員說公安消防有缺失結果呢當年10月就發生火災了就8條人命了但是呢"},{"start":13793.462,"end":13818.369,"text":"你們安消防有缺失有同時通報縣政府去解決去改善嗎有橫向聯繫嗎答案是沒有在8月的時候就說有缺失沒有通知縣政府不要說當時沒有到現在可能也沒有啦是不是沒有沒有啦評鑑的時候都是會統衛生局你有通知縣政府說裡面"},{"start":13826.24,"end":13833.992,"text":"委員認為上面有公安消防的缺失衛生局他們不會知道你們的委員當時審查的意見"},{"start":13837.13,"end":13860.609,"text":"所以在這個裡面依據你們醫院評鑑基準第一點五章安全的環境和設備裡面有講所以你們應將員工工作環境病人就醫環境的安全納入考量在規劃醫院建築和相關硬體設施時就應該把這些納入考量而且要審視是不是符合法規的要求"},{"start":13861.249,"end":13881.617,"text":"如果發現有違反相關的法令規定應立即改善然查上開基準欠缺呼應條文和查核的方式沒有將核心的公安事項列入評鑑指標當中你們沒有把公安的核心指標列入評鑑指標 制度顯有缺漏這不是我講的 這個是監察院講的"},{"start":13884.999,"end":13910.515,"text":"監察院又說你們的評鑑人員雖然有醫學公共衛生和管理的專業背景但是在醫療設施設備安全評鑑時考評存在建築硬體配電器消防安全等缺漏醫院的評鑑人員如不具備建築公安消防等專業也沒有看到評鑑時要求受評的醫院要提供上開的證明文件"},{"start":13911.696,"end":13935.592,"text":"通通都沒有辦法評鑑啦所以你們評鑑淪於紙上作業居多就公安公共安全上真的是沒有那個作用那只有台北市衛生局在要求轄區醫院在考評的時候台北市政府會要求他們要提供醫院的建築出圖證明供衛生局現場集合我的意思是說地方政府人家有人這麼做"},{"start":13936.733,"end":13955.746,"text":"那我現在在講 監察院不是只有糾正地方政府 也糾正了衛福部要求衛福部、消防署、國土署要檢討強化醫院的建築安全管理等等還有他們現在到現在 去年12月糾正到現在"},{"start":13956.747,"end":13976.862,"text":"然後也明確指出了你們應該要修正評鑑制度請問你們衛福部到底修正了沒有好跟委員說明喔第一個在這個評鑑的時候呢那麼多另外有消防安檢那個是由地方的主管機關要去做檢核的就是聯合的概念我現在講的是監察院要求你們監察院要求你們在評鑑的時候不是什麼都是由評鑑委員來評啦"},{"start":13982.987,"end":13992.052,"text":"現屬法規的合法消防安檢的部分本來就有地方的主管機關人家地方政府隨時就可以檢的啦我沒錯啦我現在問你的問題不是這個問題你答非所問你不要轉移焦點我問你的問題是你的評鑑委員在評鑑的時候就發現他有公安消防的疑慮你們沒有同時通報地方政府沒有啦"},{"start":14007.381,"end":14029.268,"text":"第二個監察院說你們在做醫院的評鑑的時候也要把公安的這個消防的這一些確保安全的這些項目要納入評鑑的機制裡面所以評鑑的基準有沒有納入核心的公安事項評鑑的委員的組成有沒有補到建築消防配電的這些專業"},{"start":14035.731,"end":14053.912,"text":"受評的醫院 如果沒有那些委員的話 受評的醫院應備的文件有沒有增加建築 公安 消防等相關證明我問你是 監察院都給你們糾正了 到現在四個月過去了 這些通通改進了沒有"},{"start":14054.929,"end":14076.999,"text":"在這個剛剛委員關心的就是我們的評鑑的報告給地方政府這個我們會做啦就是把它我們過去就是有給衛生局啦就是這個評鑑的結果報告會給衛生局作為它未來督導考核的查核項目之一啦所以這個部分橫向的部分我們做了不是啦你們的委員都發現有問題了一定要通報地方政府馬上進場去檢查如果2024年的8月"},{"start":14084.662,"end":14105.362,"text":"你們這麼做的話或許那10月發生的火災就不會有這8條人命的去無辜的傷亡跟我們說明就是說那個時間的落差是不是可以縮短一點我們是前車之鑑慘痛的經驗過去是最後評定完之後再把這個評鑑的結果報告會給衛生局"},{"start":14108.985,"end":14110.866,"text":"我現在不是在談個案而已我是從這個個案要跟你講制度而監察院都糾正了你們的制度全面性的改善了沒有就這麼簡單問你們全面性的制度改變了沒有"},{"start":14124.83,"end":14140.124,"text":"第一個就是我們把這個報告早一點送早一點送給地方不要等到那個評定完之後啦那第二個就是那個評鑑的標準裡面來優化把這些納進來這個我們會再做你們評定完要多久才會評定完"},{"start":14142.005,"end":14151.809,"text":"通常你們評鑑要評定多久才會評定完我們會分批啦 不過大概都是評定完那個叫實地評鑑 你實地評鑑完要多久大概都會幾個月後才會決定會議我問你最具體的 為什麼我要問這個問題是因為你們2024年的8月去評鑑東港的安泰醫院"},{"start":14165.855,"end":14192.273,"text":"10月3號就發生大火 死了8個人然後呢 發現一半都是偽章建築那請問這樣子事情過了多久了從你8月評鑑 2024年評鑑到現在2026年的4月了已經過了幾個月了請問你安泰醫院的評鑑到底是合格還是不合格所以他當年沒有合格"},{"start":14193.837,"end":14208.886,"text":"就要重評我在你們的網頁上查詢不到啊就是還沒有2024年的8月你就去評鑑啊到現在你說他不合格還是合格來他就是要重評的啊他要重新評鑑啊什麼叫重新評鑑就是2024年那一年他沒有合格"},{"start":14220.97,"end":14231.58,"text":"你們對於人民資的權利真的是認為都不需要給我們嗎不合格然後不用讓我們知道嗎你說他不合格他的網頁說他合格耶那是之前吧他之前的話現在還掛在網頁上嗎他說他們合格耶來看你們的查詢系統"},{"start":14249.73,"end":14261.966,"text":"你們的醫院評鑑你去查詢都查不到不合格你只公佈合格那查不到不合格那人民是要知道他是還沒評鑑還是不合格嗎"},{"start":14265.151,"end":14277.745,"text":"這個跟你們狼醫查詢系統都一樣在這裡虛晃一招你只公佈合格然後呢事實上還沒評鑑的也查不出來評鑑不合格的也查不出來你們的網頁連不合格的資訊都不公告這不用改進嗎"},{"start":14286.26,"end":14294.844,"text":"我們過去當然只公告合格名單沒有公告 不合格不用公告給我們知道嗎他自己的意願說他合格你說他不合格如果沒有立委在這裡諮詢你人民怎麼會知道他合格還是不合格"},{"start":14305.424,"end":14322.36,"text":"就是過去我們都是公告合格現在呢過去是這樣現在呢我們來演我們來演繹你評鑑這個要幹嘛不就讓人民知道哪些是合格哪些是不合格嗎你不合格不公告我人民怎麼知道這間是沒合格或是不合格"},{"start":14325.823,"end":14339.289,"text":"這是包庇嘛就是包庇嘛在你們的醫院評鑑專區網頁上東泰醫院東泰安泰醫院沒有任何敘述這種到底是你說不合格還是合格不要講了啦其實你們有改嘛你們其實你們公告了"},{"start":14349.189,"end":14362.758,"text":"在2024年10月安泰醫院大火以後以後你們修改了你們的醫院評鑑及教學醫院評鑑作業程序第11點"},{"start":14364.264,"end":14389.781,"text":"你們改了不知道是對醫院太好還是怎樣你們說放寬評鑑結果可以限期改善其實他為什麼他也不是合格也不是不合格安泰醫院現在不是合格也不是不合格經過了快要兩年了一年八個月了評鑑完到現在一年八個月了"},{"start":14391.36,"end":14404.827,"text":"到現在他不是合格也不是不合格因為你為他量身定制了放寬放寬評鑑結果可以限期改善但這個限期是要限多久保定是要限多久"},{"start":14407.367,"end":14427.533,"text":"你們現在開放可以限期改善是要限期多久沒有啦你們可以把重大公安 病安事件納入評鑑但沒有明定一旦發生應停止或不予通過評鑑"},{"start":14429.466,"end":14455.239,"text":"一旦但你沒有明定一旦發生問題應該要停止或者是不予通過你就說可以給他限期改善你就允許他改善嘛所以你不會判定他合格還是不合格表面上你們是說新增了重大公安病安事件的處理規定實際上卻是把重大事件納入先改善再決定是否不合格的框架"},{"start":14455.979,"end":14478.577,"text":"你不是加嚴啦你有可能是在架空和弱化你的評鑑的即時把關的功能讓發生重大公安或病安事件的醫院仍然有機會可以透過限期改善維持評鑑結果把重大事件納入可補正程序卻沒有同步建立明確的評定暫停還有資訊揭露和對外標示的規則"},{"start":14484.601,"end":14508.893,"text":"導致問題的醫院得以停留在通過跟未通過之間的模糊地帶他是合格不合格還沒有判定的狀況所以現在安泰醫院一年八個月不是合格也不是不合格因為他發生了公安事件還在限期改善你們制度面我就問你你的限期改善沒有讓人民知道他現在"},{"start":14510.134,"end":14530.964,"text":"在限期改善階段你在合格不合格之間如果允許他限期改善那你也要讓人民知道這家醫院現在正在限期改善你也要在法規上明定限期改善最長的時間是多少沒有人這樣子一年八個月了還在限期改善的吧"},{"start":14533.254,"end":14550.57,"text":"蛤你這個有三個層次的影響第一個層次對民眾知情權的不利評鑑本來就讓我們知道他的醫療品質跟安全標準到底合格或不合格你現行的制度只有公佈合格不公佈不合格"},{"start":14551.496,"end":14578.587,"text":"然後發生 還修改你們的作業程序 評鑑作業程序你們允許他限期改善可是呢 你們對於發生事情裡面進入限期改善也沒有讓人民知道也沒有清楚公告目前法律跟評鑑狀態也沒有公告限期改善期間要多久民眾無法做出正確的判斷這間便宜有安全嗎 不知道"},{"start":14579.307,"end":14587.216,"text":"第二個對主管機關責任不利因為只要不知道他是合格不合格或是現期改善狀況主管機關就持續用尚在處理當中尚未評定來延後表態"},{"start":14595.345,"end":14621.518,"text":"也不必立即公告不合格也不必立刻說明該醫院是否仍得對外宣稱自己具有某種評鑑資格都不知道都是醫院自己說我合格了你們政府都不用說明第三個對醫院形成有利的模糊空間然後醫院就利用這一種空窗期主張我沒有不合格喔因為我還在限期改善喔"},{"start":14622.438,"end":14638.177,"text":"甚至還可以說我過去的平健光環或是社會的印象它上面寫我合格所以對這種發生重大事件的醫院來講保留了很大的操作的空間所以現在怎麼樣"},{"start":14639.69,"end":14658.282,"text":"安泰醫院我現在問你安泰醫院他可以適用你們20他2024年評鑑不合格2025年你們修改了評鑑作業程序他現在可以適用你們2025年的評鑑程序然後給他限期改善嗎舉這個醫院來講是這樣子把我們說評鑑制度當"},{"start":14666.475,"end":14680.625,"text":"當裝飾嗎他用2024年的評鑑然後你2025年修改規定他又2024年評鑑沒算 要用2025年的作業程序來重評給他機會 每間便宜都這樣你們的評鑑這是裝飾用的嗎不對 這樣對不對這個限期改善的部分我們會再來督促主管機關來啦 你那"},{"start":14692.031,"end":14707.203,"text":"主管單位在哪裡 限期改善 限期是限多久一年八個月還要限嗎限期 你們沒想過你們的限期改善是多久嗎2024年8月評鑑 到現在還在限期改善連合格不合格都沒有辦法判定他對外說他合格啦啊到底你們現在是判定他合格還不合格還是在限期改善當中"},{"start":14720.422,"end":14726.965,"text":"醫院評鑑合格是與否合格不合格他醫院自己說我合格你們網頁找不到也沒有公佈他們沒有違反他們這樣做他們沒有違反相關規定嗎我今天不是要跟他針對"},{"start":14744.192,"end":14756.535,"text":"安泰醫院這個個案 而是要問你監察院已經指出全國有81家像安泰醫院一樣的列管的 違建的醫院81家70家通過評鑑而這些狀況都有可能會跟安泰一樣有公安的疑慮而你們說他們評鑑合格"},{"start":14771.687,"end":14777.36,"text":"你到底要不要正面的去面對你們評鑑制度失靈的責任啊"},{"start":14779.212,"end":14807.89,"text":"然後再來當你們2024年8月在評鑑安泰的時候評鑑委員已經在公文裡面寫下他的評鑑意見寫下公安消防缺失沒有同時通報地方政府地方政府不知道這樣的評鑑制度有預警功能嗎 沒有所以8月之後的10月發生大火死了8條人命"},{"start":14809.761,"end":14836.458,"text":"再來當醫院發生重大公安或病安事件以後你現在修改你的評鑑作業程序評鑑結果沒有判定合格也沒有判定不合格就停留在長期停留在現期改善當中民眾的風險要依據什麼沒有資訊不知道任何狀況"},{"start":14838.106,"end":14844.131,"text":"然後民眾無從判斷風險所以我們用這個個案來看你的制度"},{"start":14845.987,"end":14868.421,"text":"你立即公佈81家 你把資料給我們 81家列管的違建的醫院到底是哪81家 給我們知道然後你的醫院評鑑合格公告出來 不合格也一樣公告出來你的限期改善也要公告出來"},{"start":14869.602,"end":14898.482,"text":"然後你的制度面限期改善是限多久最多一個月兩個月三個月已經夠多了如果不行的話就是不合格不要這樣子安泰醫院已經限期一年八個月了一年八個月了所以在這種狀況裡面如果這樣拖下去你的評鑑制度形同虛設沒什麼而且治病人的安全在高風險之下"},{"start":14900.349,"end":14921.836,"text":"這樣補店有辦法嗎?這個補店要改跟委員說明這個有關於這個國土署所給的這個名單我們都有列管然後再進行輔導改善 我在說監察院說的80億斤啦明年大給我們啦 可以嗎?可以可以可以 那個名單其實是國土署給我們的"},{"start":14922.256,"end":14939.001,"text":"那你再搭配你們70家評鑑合格的一併勾出來網頁公開的網頁要改進有沒有問題你們的限期改善不能限到一年八個月還在限期可以嗎"},{"start":14940.001,"end":14958.187,"text":"限期改善最長一個月兩個月三個月已經夠長了你們想想看還要拖多久啊限期改善可以一直限下去嗎從合格六年評鑑一次你現在已經評鑑一年八個月以前的評鑑到現在還沒有公告不合格這樣六年已經有兩年"},{"start":14962.148,"end":14962.929,"text":"現在請王振旭委員質詢"},{"start":14991.228,"end":14997.975,"text":"今天有兩三個問題來請教一下部長跟署長第一個就是公開健康風險評估報告"},{"start":15012.689,"end":15035.849,"text":"第二個就是強化食安前端的預防還有後端的這個稽查的量能最後一個小題目就是診所受護醫師的加保權益來請教一下部長那其實這個題目大家都已經請教過部長好幾次了不過我們還是很相信對民眾有一個很透明的資訊是非常非常的重要"},{"start":15036.289,"end":15064.191,"text":"那以這次簽署這個台美對等貿易協定ART為例我們知道國人會非常非常的在意相關的一些議題尤其是在於美豬美牛這個進口管理上早上部長也有非常確認除了書面報告裡面也口頭再度強調要堅持四大不變這四大不變就是包括這個敏感品項禁令不變"},{"start":15065.072,"end":15083.606,"text":"還有原產地標示不變校園採購國產不變還有就是食安管理制度機制不變這四大不變之下國人還是會擔心的有關於國人健康的項目就是這次在ART裡面會開放絞肉跟部分的內臟進口"},{"start":15084.987,"end":15102.583,"text":"以及來自於標準的這個改裁Codex的國際新標準我們都是臨床醫師嘛對這個國人的健康真的非常非常的重視不過有沒有危害健康真的不是一個人說了算他一定要有好的科學證據"},{"start":15104.745,"end":15131.583,"text":"這個是一個很重要社會溝通的基礎我們看2019年其實那時候也有發生類似的狀況那就有公告一個非常透過成功大學李教授的一個風險健康評估這樣的一份內容讓民眾就非常的安心知道在這種推估之下對國人健康造成的影響早上也有蠻多委員針對這個議題請教的部長"},{"start":15133.704,"end":15162.158,"text":"那請問一下我們目前針對在新的標準之下新的這些狀況之下這個健康風險評估的報告有沒有機會很快透過確定以後就能夠公開給大家做確認那同時呢什麼時候會提交給這個食安執意會來做最後確認跟討論這部分可以有一個比較好的承諾方式嗎"},{"start":15163.646,"end":15193.506,"text":"好 跟委員說明就是說我們大概在所有訂定這些標準的時候第一個會參考國際標準第二個會進行這個健康風險評估所以這兩個我們都會一併考慮的所以在這一次可能會調整的一個是屬於BSE風險的部分也就是所謂狂牛症風險的部分那我們按照國際的標準重新認定所謂的BSE風險來自於典型的BSE"},{"start":15194.046,"end":15211.772,"text":"那麼排除因為老化之後的這個BSE所以這個是根據國際標準來重新做這個定義那第二個呢是殘留標準的部分那那個都做過這個健康風險評估那麼參考了這個考慮了這個國人的飲食習慣跟國際標準還有相關鄰國的這個標準之後那麼來訂定的所以這個"},{"start":15221.095,"end":15238.469,"text":"健康風險評估我們都會公告在食藥署的有一個食品風險評估的專區裡面來給大家參考目前歷年都有所以我們再review一下那麼有沒有漏放的"},{"start":15238.609,"end":15254.962,"text":"好如果是有把這個報告能夠讓民眾很安心的話我相信這個對民眾來講他們在選用這些產品的時候呢就更有所依據是好那第二部分就是強化食安前端的預防跟後端稽查的量能的部分"},{"start":15256.925,"end":15271.826,"text":"最近啦 八卦在二月四月份的時候剛好是清明節嘛 就有一個市場在高雄有個正義市場存全的食物撞毒案那在去年的十月份呢 也有台中"},{"start":15274.468,"end":15295.097,"text":"風雲烤鴨店一些狀況出現讓民眾來講有這麼多的外食或者是大家在利用節慶的時候準備食物過程當中好像會有一些擔心這種擔心如果層出不窮的話我相信對民眾死的安全真的是要有很大很大要再加強的地方"},{"start":15295.837,"end":15312.16,"text":"那所以加強檢驗一直是我們這個十三五環裡面很重要的一環那現在基本上就承諾要加強這個邊境檢驗跟後市場稽查的管理制度不會改變那我們看到這些狀況出現就會想要那個人力到底是不是"},{"start":15313.361,"end":15334.923,"text":"除了這些制度以外人力上面也沒有問題那在去年其實就在爭取了更多的人力那行政院也針對於這個邊境輸入查案的部分也增加了人力從增加了這個24位變成到105人可是我們好像目前還沒有辦法補到"},{"start":15336.805,"end":15354.582,"text":"這麼完整的人力 現在看起來只有大概85人在這個部分做工作那貨市場稽查的部分是要數目前有79位的這些貨市場稽查的人員好像比原來80人還要少7位 很顯然"},{"start":15355.783,"end":15375.121,"text":"這是這麼重的工作對這些同仁來講可能有一些在招募人才的部分受到很大的限制所以這部分不知道部長怎麼來幫助署長或者是署長有哪些問題可以讓大家知道一下這個人力的招募目前的狀況如何"},{"start":15375.922,"end":15391.878,"text":"跟委員說明 當然行政院支持我們多增加人力但是這一些特別是邊境查驗全年無休隨時機場有進來我們就可能需要這樣"},{"start":15392.879,"end":15420.806,"text":"那後市場的稽查也有相關的風險所以雖然我們有容額但是不見得照得滿所以我們現在也在研議呢應該在薪資條件的部分也應該要予以提升啦那比較能夠螺翅到這些人力那長期以來雖然我們有薪資的調整可是在專業的部分還有這些所謂危險的佳績的部分我們來爭取看看"},{"start":15423.087,"end":15450.025,"text":"讓這個人才的螺絲上能夠改善我們看各個地方政府的時日要莊稽查員也真的都相對很辛苦這麼有限的人力等於一個人要平均要負責1200家的業者的這些業務真的很需要各位長官其實給他們加油也同時能夠有更好的機制來幫忙他們來做一些處理"},{"start":15451.626,"end":15465.38,"text":"那這一部分其實我們也知道除了這些方面的努力以外那針對於這些食品的安全的部分也非常鼓勵傳統的商家來參加餐飲衛生管理的分級2010年食藥署就開始做這個分級的這些評鑑或者是相關的評核"},{"start":15471.326,"end":15488.579,"text":"看起來百分比很高都能夠達到優惠量可是我們知道他們達到這個優惠量大部分都是連鎖餐飲業者那針對於跟國人生活飲食相關很密切的就是傳統市場跟夜市攤販不曉得這個餐與平和的"},{"start":15489.82,"end":15513.991,"text":"這個百分比高不高那如果這個部分有所缺失或是是參與率不高的時候那目前有沒有好的誘因或者是什麼機制來請我們針對傳統市場或夜市攤販來參與這樣的這個管理分級的這些平和有沒有更好的做法這部分部長或者是署長有沒有好的意見可以給我們做參考"},{"start":15516.804,"end":15540.415,"text":"確實我們現在這個是自願制所以來申請的都是比較具規模的那對這種夜市攤商這個是屬於比較小型規模的那麼怎麼樣來輔導我們來跟地方政府討論看看怎麼樣對這些比較小規模但是又是"},{"start":15541.776,"end":15564.913,"text":"數量很龐大的這些攤商業者來看看怎麼輔導其實有一些地方他們跟那個業事智慧會他們會互相的合作那也提供一些標章可是這是各個地方政府自己處理的都沒有全國統一的一個相關的標章可以來協助這方面的處置模式所以很希望如果能夠"},{"start":15565.934,"end":15583.3,"text":"把這個部分做好的話我相信對於整體的食安尤其我們看到最近的幾個案件應該會有更好的幫助跟委員說我們這個要分級因為過去可能要得到的這一些要通過這樣的平和的話標準會比較高"},{"start":15584.54,"end":15611.154,"text":"但是對這種小型的可能我們要另外一套的那個平和標準比較容易輔導我們再來跟地方政府一起討論再問一下那我們知道這個地方稽查人力真的非常不夠所以針對這個公務體系人力不堪負荷之下那有沒有其他的方式來協助整體國安這個食安的這些改善那我最近就是有"},{"start":15612.114,"end":15629.515,"text":"是不是能夠參考歐美建立第三方驗證的制度包括可以授權食品技師或者是工衛師在事前或者是在同時平時定期就能夠進行衛生管理製程管控制跟倉儲流程的把關"},{"start":15630.737,"end":15645.517,"text":"經過這一套制度之下我們又可以把相關的人力能夠引到這個食安的這些需求上面來所以如果能夠真的去做好食安的這個簽證制度讓這樣的這個制度運作的話相信可以"},{"start":15646.098,"end":15660.836,"text":"同時擴充這個政府的監管量能又能夠強化前端預防機制輔導業者來自主管理那這個其實之前部長或者是深松政委他們也都了解到那也"},{"start":15661.917,"end":15679.669,"text":"表示說不反對有這個建立這個食安的簽證制度可能有助於這個強化事前的預防可是就是怎麼去釐清責任這個部分如何來加強因為這個部分大家會擔心如果前後這個責任無法釐清的話"},{"start":15680.229,"end":15701.302,"text":"造成這個事權不同意後面的問題就會很麻煩所以不過這個工會他們也認為認同啦這個如果專業人員這個制度建立以後呢就是有權應該當然要有責嘛就能夠把這些責任理清得非常的清楚那大方向大家有共識"},{"start":15702.242,"end":15732.062,"text":"那有沒有可能麻煩我們主管機關惡務部這邊可以來繼續或者是開始來思考願意推動這樣的食安簽證制度的推行或推廣對 跟委員說確實過去我們是針對一定規模的會訂有三級品管的方式內部它需要有相關證照人員包含食品祭祀等等那第二級的話就會有第三方的認證制度一定規模的"},{"start":15732.462,"end":15759.37,"text":"那第三個才是最終的主管機關的這個稽查大概過去是這三個那但是就如同剛剛委員提到的這個限於這個量能的關係所以可能沒有辦法破解到全面所以如果要全面的話也許就是要導入這個現有的這些人力包含公衛司、食品機制來進行這個食安簽證的制度"},{"start":15759.87,"end":15782.631,"text":"不過責任的釐清,還有負責簽證的人類的資格、條件、訓練等等這個我們來研究一下,那也許是可以來補我們現在稽查人力不足,讓他更往前坐在預防的那一端"},{"start":15783.491,"end":15797.687,"text":"如果這個開始推動這個原意的話那可不可以兩個月給我們一個書面報告方便嗎可以好謝謝那最後就是診所受顧醫師加保全員這個部分其實我想部長也清楚"},{"start":15798.288,"end":15818.772,"text":"我們上個禮拜也在勞動部那邊請紅部長還有勞保局的局長針對於如果是診所裡面的受僱醫師是單一的診所受僱或者是多診所受僱的話如何能夠讓他們的勞保的權益可以順利的來得到好的保障"},{"start":15819.312,"end":15843.163,"text":"那這部分那個局長是說需要跟這個衛福部這邊來討論相關如何能夠讓這樣的這些在改善的過程裡面有好的一個統計基礎所以是不是可以麻煩部長也能夠認同我們針對這些診所受護醫師在加保的權益上可以有更全面的一些處理模式"},{"start":15843.803,"end":15868.903,"text":"跟委員說明因為在診所的醫師他會有兩種型態一種他是用合夥關係共同成立所以這個就可能這個不是家保的問題那另外一個才是真的受雇所以現在我們當然直登上一定是只有一個負責醫師其他就是直登醫師但是他們的關係是在我們現在系統裡面看不出來"},{"start":15869.563,"end":15894.253,"text":"我們不知道他是受雇關係還是合夥關係所以這個很可能還要透過那個稅捐機關一起勾結如果他在申報的時候他是申報是執行業務所得那他就是合夥關係的認定那可能就沒有這個加保問題那但是如果他是以薪資所得來申報那他就很可能就是雇傭關係"},{"start":15895.213,"end":15920.709,"text":"那這個就要依照勞基法的這個規定來給他加保所以我們必須要前置的這些數據那可能我們還要不是只有勞動部的這個協助可能還需要這個稅捐機關的協助去勾結他們的這個關係那這部分部長可以幫忙我們再請財政部也提供給我們"},{"start":15921.73,"end":15943.223,"text":"相關在這些診所醫師但是這個因為這個還有各自的問題我們來跟器官討論一下謝謝王正訓委員的諮詢這邊宣告待會在洪孟凱委員訓導完畢後休息20分鐘用餐現在請賴慈寶委員諮詢"},{"start":15952.442,"end":15960.927,"text":"謝謝主席 以及各位先進有請衛務部的石部長以及農業部的杜署長好 賴委員好兩位長官好 辛苦了"},{"start":15969.141,"end":15994.115,"text":"我們看啦 因為今天討論這個Art之後的一個食安的相關的問題啦那現在看到這個剛才有委員關心 委員關心這個問題就是到美國這個也根據我們的食安法第35條規定開放新的肉品以及高風險要擦場"},{"start":15996.361,"end":16007.329,"text":"35條規定很清楚對不對那現在要開放美牛的內臟裡面心啊肝啊腎啊等等這都是高風險部內請問你們規劃要擦場有沒有"},{"start":16013.51,"end":16020.075,"text":"那個跟委員說明我們去年已經到美國查過系統性查核這個部分你沒查這個啊這個才我們才簽的啊他才簽的啊另外跟委員說明的這是歸類的問題是"},{"start":16029.481,"end":16041.692,"text":"就是說我們在過去BS1的時候呢是把它認定在叫做風險可供國家所以它有部分的這個產品是屬於高風險但是它現在呢已經那個食安法第35條規定這麼清楚"},{"start":16048.758,"end":16070.833,"text":"那查場這個ART現在說要簽當然現在還沒有送到立法院但是你們應該要趕快就要去查那個到現在為止沒有你是講去年都已經跟你講是ART簽了以後現在就去簽了只是因為這個臨時美國的狀況所以暫時沒有送進來立法院否則已經簽了開了記者會了這時候你們要去查對不對根據史安法在數調"},{"start":16078.578,"end":16085.25,"text":"好那你生肖後續的話我們都會那你承諾生肖完畢多久以內可以去擦傷"},{"start":16088.187,"end":16113.704,"text":"現在跟委員提一下因為對於美國相關的進口來台灣本來就已經在系統性查核下已經同意這他們的廠的規格符合制度上面我們最近很少查不是嗎去年都查幾次去年就特別有去查去年是特別有去一次一次 前年呢前年有沒有我問你前年有沒有"},{"start":16116.707,"end":16132.487,"text":"我們一直以來都是沒有啊你們查的很少啊這個這個這個現在我們一直開放不要忘了2021年找資料還是我問的那時候市長就叫石崇良石部長那個是什麼"},{"start":16134.369,"end":16160.15,"text":"那時候市長叫石崇良部長叫陳時中陳時中說2021年要開放30個月的月齡以上的美牛要進來以前是小牛現在是大牛30個月以上的陳時中就說這個新制上路簽一定要去美國查上他公開講的2020年Google一下然後市長叫石崇良"},{"start":16161.876,"end":16178.004,"text":"對 廁場就失聳量也是跟他說戰鬥就是要這樣去啊結果我查了一下你們都沒去啊你們中國去的就是比較有資料的是2014年到2018年查的比較清後面幾乎沒有啊 去年查一次去年查什麼 去年查什麼"},{"start":16178.953,"end":16195.507,"text":"報告委員我們去年的三月份我們特地去做美牛肉茶場那上次呢差幾家這次去的是我們差一家而已啊應該不止吧去的幾家我覺得應該是確定一下是幾家我們去年的時候是去去幾天去幾天"},{"start":16197.488,"end":16207.314,"text":"總共差不多約一個禮拜一個禮拜是一個月的傳播咧我們同仁們有去跟房間署一起前去茶場就去年的三月份已經這個啊這個啊不懂啊"},{"start":16210.629,"end":16230.302,"text":"這個我問同樣的問題 上一次你問你的時候是社長 現在是部長光路主路大了齁 但是你不要一直倒退路啊這個東西人家說啊就千萬大家 多少的民主在電視上最擔心的是什麼我們的食安防線全面撤手"},{"start":16231.702,"end":16252.416,"text":"這裡面我就跟你講這個到現在為止你沒有規劃你今天承諾只要ART生效多久以內可以去查詳你告訴我我們一定會按照這個食安法的規定來進行這樣好不好你公開承諾就是只要ART正式簽訂立法院一通過之後半年內去查詳可以嗎"},{"start":16256.781,"end":16275.913,"text":"或者這樣的一個教授條件我們應該是對就是說新開放的新開放的新肝腎啊這高風險不會啊很繳肉啊要有他要進來的我們才會查對啊對啊要進來的啊當然啊當然啊我現在就跟你講因為有新開放的啊現在有新肝腎內臟呢新的我們就會查"},{"start":16283.317,"end":16296.305,"text":"不是啦 新的啦 新的場啦如果你之前就已經是舊的那個就不需要啦為什麼不需要他以前有開放的部位啊新開放的部位要去啊 對不對"},{"start":16301.008,"end":16328.016,"text":"半年可以吧正式簽訂也要半年內可以吧其實每年都有固定一次的要查訪那大概都在年中每年至少一次去查幾家就是他核可的五到六家你們把報告給我們好不好因為我查資料都查不到我查資料說2018年以後你們都沒有去查沒有從民國九十幾年到"},{"start":16329.136,"end":16332.818,"text":"我跟委員報告我現在關心來來來部長還有跟那個榮譽部有關係的前年越南的華國麵包出問題今年的清明節高雄潤餅潤餅出問題上個禮拜新北便當上吐下吸"},{"start":16347.125,"end":16359.791,"text":"人家查出來了一個農業部放水原來說規定強制要吸選單結果呢你們說鼓勵強制改成鼓勵農業部來講一下為什麼這樣來講一下農業部為什麼這麼大的轉變為什麼原來要強制為什麼變成鼓勵咧你不知道怎麼回答"},{"start":16377.202,"end":16401.83,"text":"委員好 那個今天我代表薰姆斯出席但因為蛋的部分不是我這邊管理的那據我所知 如果不是你管理就不要上來的是不是好 謝謝好啦 就沒有 部長啊我重點跟部長啊 請問你不是 這個署長你不能回答就是 部長 那我們部長好不好 這個部長你不要去清楚喔這個農業部這樣的改編有沒有知會你 有沒有"},{"start":16402.984,"end":16413.64,"text":"有沒有告訴你說我們原來是強制現在變成鼓勵有沒有有沒有告訴你沒有啊各做各的啊"},{"start":16414.659,"end":16432.688,"text":"沒有跟你們講啊現在變成是 你要守爛攤子喔 沈部長因為現在責任在食藥署這裡了在你這裡了 食藥署這裡了OK 現在責任在你這裡了所以這源頭管理就變成非常非常的重要"},{"start":16436.225,"end":16452.818,"text":"這個現在來看我們這個根據實際有點舊了但是2021年也是better than nothing了台灣的民眾37%用非全熟的蛋比如說Sunny side一邊是生的一邊熟的"},{"start":16454.339,"end":16481.084,"text":"當然你的拳手比較沒問題啦一扒的人用生蛋日本怎麼做日本用生食級的像是Sashimi這樣來觀控沙門市郡韓國用殺蟲劑抗生素來檢測台灣這裡變成人家日本韓國都越來越少我們現在越來越少那個食藥署要怎麼樣補這一塊不知道你在說什麼"},{"start":16482.603,"end":16486.507,"text":"食藥署今天來吧就是你就是來江蘇省"},{"start":16488.294,"end":16512.02,"text":"報告委員針對整個洗選彈這個制度其實主要政策在農業部的政策我知道但是後面是你收尾所以我們我們對於整個政策上面能夠使用尤其這個大量使用的彈能夠用所謂的殺菌的彈 液彈來進行我覺得是最安全的那這部分未來會跟農業部這邊一起來"},{"start":16512.72,"end":16531.076,"text":"你們要跟樓部講一下啦拜託他們放這麼寬從原來強制變成一個鼓勵怎麼會這個樣子到底是什麼考慮啊是不是選舉考慮啊什麼考慮怎麼會這個樣子我們有三十幾趴的人吃不熟的蛋了這個其實風險非常高的對不對部長"},{"start":16535.599,"end":16546.445,"text":"我們會跟農業部再來討論看看這政策上怎麼去提高我們看到日本 韓國連加強加嚴格我們是放寬結果這個農業部從後這個衛福部十二署的負責人你要擦屁股變這樣子你不覺得委屈嗎我們會來強化這個兩部會之間的合作很委屈"},{"start":16563.365,"end":16565.228,"text":"謝謝勒斯本委員的諮詢 接下來請洪夢凱委員諮詢"},{"start":16578.848,"end":16598.702,"text":"剛剛說了一個大白話我們農業部要更改政策因應食安之前衛福部完全沒有開會沒有討論真的是讓我們國人感到非常的憂心來感謝昭偉那我們請經貿談判辦公室的徐執密然後還有這個先請徐執密好不好來 徐執密委員好"},{"start":16602.455,"end":16630.762,"text":"我想今天開宗明義還是要強調這個對外溝通談判大家都希望努力但是我們是務實不務虛那本席不知道說之前因為你也在這一個我們之前嚴慧心副代表那也在這個辦公室裡面已經很長一段時間本席想要先救教一下因為本席有看到一個新聞到底現在外界講說這個霸凌的源頭是直指是現在的一個我們的總代表楊真理啊"},{"start":16631.522,"end":16644.578,"text":"那2024年 嚴慧心報到的時候那有沒有發生過被我們的代表咆哮的事情是不是可以說明一下有沒有看到這個新聞"},{"start":16645.874,"end":16668.622,"text":"我有看到 有沒有看到嚴嘉仁講這個是嚴嘉仁所講嘛而且講說當時是有一位徐姓執密帶我們的嚴惠心副代表去他的辦公室坐那之後被楊真妮知道之後爆笑如雷然後之後要求他先出來然後事後特別提到說還跟徐姓執密直接逃銷"},{"start":16670.756,"end":16699.603,"text":"我們有幾位徐姓執密向委員報告那個裡面講的徐姓執密書應該就是我我們只有一位徐姓執密對 是的那這件事情在這個調查報告裡面在調查的過程當中我都已經有向這個外部委員有說明那如果允許的話我可以在這邊再公開的再說一次我對這個事情完全沒有印象"},{"start":16700.123,"end":16729.286,"text":"你對這個事情完全沒有印象所以報導裡面指出是說該殖密受楊真尼咆哮責罵你沒有印象是我沒有印象那有沒有在你這個同事的過程裡面到底有沒有看到我們經貿辦公室有霸凌的事件或是感覺到有霸凌的氛圍因為其實本席在未還委員會我覺得最重要的就是我們之前討論勞動部的霸凌事件我們討論相關霸凌事件其實目的只有一個"},{"start":16730.046,"end":16756.446,"text":"就是我們不希望有任何人用權勢霸凌來造成公務體系公務部門的不對等然後進一步的有人受到傷害但確實現在顏惠心女士她已經離世當然她離世的真的直接理由是不是跟霸凌有關要等調查報告但我想問的是到經貿辦公室他的遺書裡面寫的就是執行層面充滿消極敷衍的態度你有沒有感受到"},{"start":16758.224,"end":16768.924,"text":"像委員報告我個人是完全沒有感受到所以你覺得經貿辦公室是一個和樂歡樂充滿朝氣那嚴慧心的遺書裡面寫的都不是事實"},{"start":16770.889,"end":16797.823,"text":"我覺得在那個顏副總在裡面所提到的就是像他講的CPTPP沒有實成沒有計畫CPTPP的部分我完全沒有聽到他有這樣的陳述然後在至於編制化的部分這個部分是我跟他一直有在討論過然後也都有努力過那只是因為後來因為對美談判比較密集那所以這個部分有點耽擱但是"},{"start":16798.703,"end":16816.312,"text":"院裡面也是有給我們六位編制內的人員徐志敏我不知道你是誰的人公部門有些時候會看說是誰的人但我覺得如果說今天已經一位副代表副總代表離世然後副總代表他是被媒體預稱說他是曾經服務過兩位總統來協助談判溝通"},{"start":16819.83,"end":16845.144,"text":"結果到目前為止這樣子然後你今天這樣講的好像是他的遺書裡面寫的都不是事實我不知道說你這樣子沒關係你有你的立場但現在調查還在進行當中嘛但本席現在在講的是說其實就是一個很重要的部分到底經貿辦公室過去到現在有沒有讓國人覺得說我明明有打CPTPP結果原來大白話是裡面根本沒有相關的一個計畫跟節奏"},{"start":16846.425,"end":16872.894,"text":"然後現在楊珍妮總代表我們不管是經濟委員會有邀請過吧今天也沒有來那我不知道說她還可以躲到什麼時候有關CPTPP的部分其實政府的內部都有討論然後相關的部會相關的單位其實都有在分工史無對證嗎所以說她的遺書裡面寫的不是事實也都有在這個史無對證也都有在進行當中"},{"start":16873.854,"end":16880.146,"text":"他沒有辦法再為自己發聲所以他遺書不是事實那如果說這樣的話我請教行政院長為什麼要重啟調查如果說像你這樣講欸 經貿辦公室 和樂 龍恰"},{"start":16886.94,"end":16914.037,"text":"那行政院長為什麼第一時間還要重啟調查像委員報告有關於調查的事情那這次都是由外部委員在進行調查當中那本院的立場 院裡的立場就是說相關的進度以及調查的方式都是由外部委員來進行跳針式的回答就不用再繼續了因為您剛剛那我真的就我個人所以就我個人知道的部分來回答你剛剛已經回答了嗎來請我們時務長好不好"},{"start":16920.308,"end":16941.367,"text":"來部長簡單兩分鐘跟你請教因為剛剛我本席很重視這所謂的食安三十五條那源頭管理的部分因為食安法三十五條明確規定給主管機關可以有食安一律的時候源頭管理去做查場那你先講到是說去年三月有針對我們今年要開放的牛血牛脂等相關的部分進行查場"},{"start":16943.118,"end":16962.056,"text":"呃 查場的細節我請署長來說明因為我們現在要很明確的了解是說你們查了因為剛剛我覺得賴世鮑委員就是本席也想追問的就說如果說真的ART通過之後我們什麼時候要去做查場因為現在要開放的是美牛以及牛隻的副產品包括牛血牛脂等相關嘛"},{"start":16963.284,"end":16985.621,"text":"去年有查場到這個部分牛脂跟牛血它是要做飼料的是跟人食用是沒有關係的第一件說明第二件是去年三月份的時候我們其實已經出去去查場那去年三月的時候查是查什麼樣的一個特別是美牛相關這個議題裡面在ART裡面有提到的一些相關議題那我們就針對那個議題高風險的部位的那我們就進行場的查"},{"start":16991.545,"end":17005.171,"text":"去了一個禮拜 差了四個場來 我請教您是我是食藥署署長我是江署長江署長我們什麼時候關稅美國才跟我們做談判我們什麼時候是去年四月啊"},{"start":17006.523,"end":17029.574,"text":"川普總統是去年四月才提出說全球關稅提高百分之三十然後之後才開始一個國家一個國家過來做談判結果我們的食藥署超前部署去年三月就先去做針對這些開放的部分先做茶場那你們是已經打了 吃了聖駝鐵了是已經知道說要開放了是不是跟委員報告一下"},{"start":17030.094,"end":17053.825,"text":"因為每一年啊你剛剛時序講的不對喔就相關的所謂National NTE是但是你剛剛有沒有提到是說為了這一次ART去做茶廠應該講說這是你剛剛提到的喔為了這個相關的議題啊就是歷年來所謂NTE裡面是就是為了議題但是過去到現在我們有沒有討論過要開放美牛進一步美牛的相關副產品或是美牛更擴大開放其實並沒有"},{"start":17054.645,"end":17082.667,"text":"是因為這一次美國總統川普4月之後搞出了一個32%叫全世界大家來談所以我們的經貿辦公室我們的談判代表才去談所以才講是說談到了一個ART而迫於無奈因為我們從32%要調上成20%我們迫於無奈我們要跟日本韓國所以我們必須要開放美牛進一步更大擴大開放但你現在講到一個大白話是原來去年3月我們就要做超前部署啦"},{"start":17082.987,"end":17108.442,"text":"跟委員報告政府什麼時候做超前部署不是在做管控食安反而在做開放美牛超前部署跟委員報告歷年來的NTE你們對於美牛的議題其實長期都是重要的非常荒謬所以在這個議題上面我們一直都持續的在做我們的是啊那你如果說沒有打算要開放的話你為什麼要去查一些還沒有開放的地方跟委員說來部長我覺得這件事情喔"},{"start":17110.251,"end":17129.377,"text":"國人都在看因為現在感覺是全面失守當初怎麼樣罵美牛民進黨政府在野的時候怎麼樣罵美牛講那是毒牛然後2021年要開放進口到現在因為ART你居然跟我們講是說沒有辦法因為我們要競爭力我們要什麼的"},{"start":17130.217,"end":17154.97,"text":"有沒有即視感啊那個時候要進口什麼美牛美豬說CPTPP CPTPP如果沒有進口的話會不對等不公平沒有辦法加入四年過去了在哪裡跟委員說明那你現在又再一個超前部署應該是這樣講這個美牛的議題一直在進行當中因為呢這個世界動物健康組織"},{"start":17156.07,"end":17185.029,"text":"重新發布對BSE的風險管控標準不同所以才需要一直在討論這個議題本席認為喔你們現在說一個謊要一百個謊來講很難啦來 兩個部分給本席一下去年3月你們去茶廠的一個內容報告這可以提供吧那還有請剛剛本席的一樣要求就跟賴司法委員一樣就是說如果說假設未來因為ART現在還沒有送進立法院"},{"start":17185.549,"end":17207.548,"text":"那ART到底要不要我們現在馬上急著簽因為這一次美國從2月24號的關稅到現在有一些國家也都還沒有去簽訂也因此如果說150天之後美國政府也要通過國會授權才能延長那我們有沒有急著簽但是送進立法院未來如果說真的有確認相關的話農業部"},{"start":17210.197,"end":17239.377,"text":"衛福部一定要在生效之後即刻啟動查場這樣可以嗎應該是有新申請項目進來因為雖然有開放不見的有申請有申請的我們才會查有申請就一定要查是不是好那請提供相關資料謝謝另外給委員補充就是去年3月份其實我們是美國每年都有例行性的查場你剛剛已經講了你來要不要回放一下為了ART所以說去年3月有最相關的查場"},{"start":17240.798,"end":17249.232,"text":"所以剛剛賴世保委員在質詢的時候才會問說你們要不要新做茶廠 你剛剛還先搪塞講說已經去年查過了 去年查過了 不用"},{"start":17252.778,"end":17276.816,"text":"欸 才十分鐘前欸 我沒有要我跟你講 今天我們有一說一 有二說二你的時序是不對的而這個不對的時序 所以本席才講說你請提供去年三月茶場之後的一個資料跟紀錄但我們要講去 為什麼現在開放領牛最正點是 所以剛剛 所以現在要承認是剛剛口誤是不是是例行性的茶場"},{"start":17278.13,"end":17301.456,"text":"為什麼會開放美牛為什麼我們要擴大開放為什麼今天專案報告為什麼會有那麼多國人的疑慮啊不就是因為你的ART不就是因為美國的壓力然後說我們要整個開放那沒有幫國人把關然後現在還要跟我們講所以我們現在在講是說站在衛福部站在我們主管機關的角度我們要嚴格把關不要沒有任何的配套好不好 謝謝沒有問題好 謝謝"},{"start":17307.743,"end":17316.608,"text":"現在請委員會再重新宣告 待會在楊瓊英委員詢問完畢後休息20分鐘用餐現在請楊瓊英委員質詢感謝主席 楊瓊發言 邀請部長請時部長"},{"start":17333.981,"end":17336.791,"text":"兩位人好 部長好等一下 等那個電腦"},{"start":17346.561,"end":17374.414,"text":"好 部長好你認不認識圖卡上面的這些人這是在11年前為了保護我們的下一代我們堅持修訂學校衛生法也就是禁止基改的食材進入校園藍綠大家一起努力去完成在11年前那所以呢這是我們非常重視的一個食安紅線"},{"start":17376.058,"end":17399.735,"text":"所以在美方2026年NTE的時候的這個報告當中他說 他實際上說 不會希望能夠放寬這個部分那本席要說的 如果在美方的要求我們任意的輕言退讓那同時就是面臨著朝野立委的政治反彈"},{"start":17401.756,"end":17406.679,"text":"所以本席要在這邊來請教基改食品因為當時民進黨告訴台灣的家長說基改食品是給豬吃的飼料及黃豆這句話那孩子在學校因為他沒有選擇權所以政府必須要代位的來把關那不然11年過去了"},{"start":17427.353,"end":17451.972,"text":"現在美國在2026年的NTE裡頭它報告一指責我們說是貿易壁壘那當時的飼料豆突然要變成了食品嗎 請做說明跟委員說明 在我們初步的ART裡面對於基改食品的措施沒有改變所以仍然維持基改食品不進校園"},{"start":17452.452,"end":17469.363,"text":"一定要確定打這個關因為美國指令我們的是什麼呢他說缺乏科學證據但是我要再一次的強調我們當時通過這個法案最重要的最重要是基於學童無權選擇"},{"start":17472.245,"end":17500.063,"text":"他沒有選擇權所以政府必須代位的來管理這個責任就是當時我們通過最重要的學校衛生法已經是明定喔它是 約法是明定禁止四項這個就是說我們通過的法律這是我們主權國家的一個法律根源並不是行政部門可以隨便的來妥協的行政命令"},{"start":17500.763,"end":17511.128,"text":"所以因此2014年到2025年的時候呢政府跟我們的家長團體大家達成這個共識就是社會契約所以我們長期對於國民認為這個還是有風險的疑慮的一個情況之下絕對"},{"start":17519.893,"end":17523.734,"text":"不能貿然的退讓所以剛剛我要特別強調的美方的經貿報告是美方的立場但是我們台灣學生的參和是我們主權國家的紅線所以我還是要再一次的強調"},{"start":17543.559,"end":17559.287,"text":"部長一定要把關好這個政府一定要把關好不能有任何的退讓對不對跟委員說明目前在R的簽訂的內容裡面呢那麼校園一樣是沒有基改絕對不能有基改使用的還是以國產租屋國產為主好你講那個租屋我們繼續來講萊姬的內帳全租的開放他們也有這個要求你的立場"},{"start":17572.132,"end":17577.678,"text":"我們就是按照科學證據那麼國際的標準然後再經過我們的健康風險評估來訂定"},{"start":17579.437,"end":17606.594,"text":"哇那這個有疑慮喔因為它是要求全部未開放但是我們針對於是這樣牛的部分因為過去在這個BSE也就是狂牛症的風險等級變動了它本來美國是被歸類在風險可控制國家現在是風險可忽略國家所以這兩個在國際標準上它的管控"},{"start":17608.015,"end":17626.48,"text":"風險可忽略國家是全部都可以進口的它是沒有風險疑慮的所以這剛才本席說的好 不要咬人絕字了本席要強調的要求要 他們要要求全豬開放你們的立場到底是什麼也就是內臟的部分"},{"start":17628.069,"end":17654.323,"text":"如果照剛剛署長 部長你這麼說那個豬的內臟已經開放了所以依照你的說法是如果符合這個標準它是OK的 都OK的喔對對對 就是按照我們的安全容許量所以部長本席認為我們應該要嚴格的來把關因為我們一直強調要怎麼樣讓我們的食安安全我們不能自動的來過濾萊克多巴胺"},{"start":17655.482,"end":17670.587,"text":"我們一定是按照這個國際標準跟國人的健康來把關沒有問題國人的健康把關一定要全面的這個來管控好那現在本席手上拿的是馬鈴薯發芽的馬鈴薯好 發芽的馬鈴薯"},{"start":17674.232,"end":17685.515,"text":"有發芽的馬鈴薯照國人的食用也就是有發芽它因為它含有龍葵鹼它是有毒的所以一定會丟掉這個丟掉本身要請教回應美方技術性的貿易壁壘的一個關切"},{"start":17694.369,"end":17701.997,"text":"有要研議帶芽切片的馬鈴薯進口加工改由工廠自主篩選有沒有這回事不是這樣簡單的說就是過去在海關齁你這個整批裡面只要一顆發芽整批退啦"},{"start":17711.487,"end":17725.377,"text":"現在的做法是如果有發現有這個發芽的話整批封存然後到一個指定的加工地點再去做剔除而不是整批把它退出加工去剔除誰把關你把這個有發芽的你讓他自主去把關他已經切片做成薯條薯片誰知道消費者誰會知道我知道的到底有沒有發芽的馬鈴薯"},{"start":17739.747,"end":17755.687,"text":"跟委員說明即使是國內的馬鈴薯也有同樣的情況也都需要做剔除在國內採收之後那麼他保存然後送到工廠一樣會出現有發芽的馬鈴薯所以也是要剔除所以作業上呢誰把官請教"},{"start":17757.549,"end":17762.032,"text":"這個就是我說的技術性的跪下嘛你原本是由政府來把關嘛你現在由工廠自行來把關嘛你不是技術下的跪下嗎對不對 本期再一次強調當這樣子的一個情況當它變成薯片薯條的時候消費者誰會知道我吃下的這些切片式的到底有沒有發芽"},{"start":17784.348,"end":17786.61,"text":"對 所以無論是進口 無論是本土我們都一樣的標準在把關一樣的標準所以 署長 部長"},{"start":17794.167,"end":17822.136,"text":"政府的風險管理應該由政府來把關而不是由廠商來自主去控管良心控管消費者要求的是我要知道的政府把關然後建立制度那麼這個加工業者呢也要自律所以我們都有標準在所以消費者你沒有問題民眾有問題啊我知道的你如果進口切片式的萬一他是有發芽的那消費者怎麼會知道請教"},{"start":17823.416,"end":17825.945,"text":"都是要地主的 那我們後面還要檢定標準"},{"start":17827.752,"end":17835.877,"text":"我們就有要求廠商自己來剔除嘛糧劑自己來剔除嘛對不對從農地出來的也有可能是有發芽的馬鈴薯我們講到這裡消費者希望要有安全的食品安全的食物這非常重要不要技術性的跪下這個是非常重要這個紅線絕對不能退最後一個議題寵物用藥"},{"start":17855.149,"end":17859.271,"text":"到目前為止大家抗議之後你完全沒有配套在這樣情況之下你跟農業部還好煞車緩了接下來怎麼做接下來怎麼做"},{"start":17870.697,"end":17876.862,"text":"因為本席要求特別針對集中性心臟病氣管擴張這些救命藥這些救命藥你是不是能夠比照人類醫院給予醫師有絕對的備藥權"},{"start":17887.57,"end":17897.858,"text":"才不會讓他們醫藥分類的這個情況之下呢變成毛小孩在診間斷氣的理由這是我們很難過因為我們現在的毛小孩已經統計超過340萬隻比14歲以下的孩子還要多我們統計出來那這怎麼辦這些急重症緊急狀況的怎麼辦"},{"start":17912.306,"end":17921.934,"text":"跟委員說明目前這個農業部已經有公告701個人用藥品可以用在這個動物身上所以這個701種我們都會確保讓獸醫師可以拿得到所以一定會做到這樣"},{"start":17927.839,"end":17937.102,"text":"那麼接下來是說流用流向的管理使用的管理的規定會再重新由這個農業部跟我們來會商這個政府有問題啊這麼嚴肅的議題沒有配套你竟然就如此等一下宣布然後再來停止停止民眾更緊張啊"},{"start":17947.385,"end":17965.181,"text":"什麼時候要公告 在新的辦法沒有出來之前都可以供應大家都可以拿得到請教你這個有語病喔新的辦法還沒有出來都可以留用新的辦法出來什麼時候要出來可不可以所以新的辦法出來之前這個701種的人用藥已經公告的部分部長什麼時候會出來什麼時候會出來"},{"start":17968.624,"end":17978.668,"text":"你現在講這有語病啊新的辦法還沒出來都可以留新的辦法到底內容是什麼又為一個沒有配套就宣布讓全國緊張的方案出來嗎報告委員那個剛剛部長也講得很清楚我們現在大概會註銷原來的公告"},{"start":17987.112,"end":17994.157,"text":"什麼時候要註銷這個大家很期待什麼時候要註銷這兩天會註銷行政程序順利的話應該是就會很快速來做公告今天禮拜三這個禮拜會註銷已經在這個禮拜會註銷讓大家放心好這個禮拜註銷那新的公告呢那我們先確保一個就是他現在的這個用藥的可以用是維持對是維持是維持那新的公告呢會不會又轉用髮夾彎了呢"},{"start":18018.213,"end":18029.359,"text":"就已經要正式完善這個制度就一定往更好的方向去承認上一次的不完善我們願意接受但是不要再製造人民的恐慌這個禮拜會註銷什麼時候會公告"},{"start":18033.46,"end":18062.39,"text":"對 就是註銷的移併公告註銷文是一定會移併公告的在註銷文裡面也會確保確保這個藥商跟藥局供應無虞給我們的獸醫院就是他可以留用嘛講最清楚的就是如此嘛所以會在這個禮拜會去註銷跟公告結論是如此是註銷原文的公告啦那你的新公告什麼時候出來啊"},{"start":18063.618,"end":18085.912,"text":"不是 那辦法 什麼時候會出來你辦法為什麼時候會出來因為辦法會涉及到整個你大概什麼時候會出來 你讓人民安心嘛你這個禮拜去註銷原公告嘛那你什麼時候辦法會出來啊假設我們還是有進行很多法治以後要跟所有相關利害關係人這個月底會公告出來吧可能因為"},{"start":18089.554,"end":18104.202,"text":"那個辦法 假設有共識當然行政座也很快所以這個部分要逐條逐條去建構當然是如此所以你們要公告就隨隨便便公告 然後再來註銷然後現在要怎麼樣的辦法還不知道 難怪人民"},{"start":18104.582,"end":18107.803,"text":"不是 委員現在這樣講是說原來要實施的這個辦法 那綁手綁腳的部分 至少我們將它註銷掉那維持現有的制度 然後我們再重新兩方對 再制定新的 大家的期待第一個 這個禮拜內會將原公告來取消 來註銷 這一個我們達成共識"},{"start":18126.491,"end":18138.856,"text":"讓大家放心還是可以備用留用這個一個第二個新的辦法也要儘速去告訴民眾讓民眾能夠安心好不好謝謝謝謝楊卓英委的諮詢現在休息20分鐘"},{"start":18158.034,"end":18158.334,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":18176.46,"end":18180.223,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":18194.394,"end":18220.845,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":18241.853,"end":18241.873,"text":"鞭筍"},{"start":18257.146,"end":18269.834,"text":"謝謝大家的收看"},{"start":18287.454,"end":18290.92,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":18306.005,"end":18321.601,"text":"剪輯 曲 曲"},{"start":18326.92,"end":18345.162,"text":"謝謝 謝謝"},{"start":18354.438,"end":18368.028,"text":"謝謝觀看,下次見"},{"start":18398.168,"end":18398.208,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":18416.6,"end":18428.085,"text":"要不要"},{"start":18436.058,"end":18437.439,"text":"無法收穫 超時無法收穫"},{"start":18467.374,"end":18470.918,"text":"謝謝大家收看"},{"start":18501.236,"end":18501.676,"text":"三個字"},{"start":18506.499,"end":18509.42,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":18519.067,"end":18522.088,"text":"然後後面也有後面也有聲音可以聽到聲音可以聽到聲音"},{"start":18549.27,"end":18550.672,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":18573.49,"end":18595.486,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":18615.118,"end":18615.138,"text":"蝦仁"},{"start":18646.324,"end":18647.725,"text":"通常都開到下午人家委員會都通常都開到下午"},{"start":18651.252,"end":18654.075,"text":"兩點,兩點是正常的"},{"start":18665.334,"end":18666.475,"text":"施力"},{"start":18704.888,"end":18705.168,"text":"沒有在現時點"},{"start":18711.972,"end":18712.252,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":18744.118,"end":18744.158,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":18763.933,"end":18778.747,"text":"還好不是巴亞的三角 巴亞的三角比較恐怖"},{"start":18790.112,"end":18790.892,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":18816.211,"end":18836.919,"text":"好,好,好,好,好,好"},{"start":18864.75,"end":18875.172,"text":"所以居然就沒有什麼"},{"start":18889.338,"end":18909.107,"text":"一二十九分"},{"start":18910.693,"end":18911.234,"text":"現在是G2到5了"},{"start":18934.965,"end":18940.827,"text":"對阿,這就是我們現在的環境,如果安寧就非常好,但是我無習慣"},{"start":18956.906,"end":18960.568,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":18968.264,"end":18980.929,"text":"對,我還沒做到,有一點不太好,因為他說有張老師,有我老師,我會給他一份禮物"},{"start":18983.353,"end":18999.258,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":19017.244,"end":19040.06,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":19041.903,"end":19060.009,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":19062.449,"end":19090.111,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":19114.728,"end":19118.19,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":19141.493,"end":19163.952,"text":"謝謝您的參與"},{"start":19171.127,"end":19188.116,"text":"他們沒有標誌的年齡,標誌要怎麼來講?他們有標誌的年齡,沒有標誌的年齡"},{"start":19195.254,"end":19206.027,"text":"你剛才不是說"},{"start":19216.426,"end":19219.869,"text":"可以這個了"},{"start":19245.635,"end":19251.259,"text":"哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈"},{"start":19274.006,"end":19284.238,"text":"這怎麼會是橄欖 橄欖會是藥妝藥妝比較不行嘛 容量消費者不認 造型不認 造型不認"},{"start":19301.446,"end":19302.19,"text":"看到塔頭了"},{"start":19326.585,"end":19327.989,"text":"三位吃饱了吗吃饱了"},{"start":19338.842,"end":19356.534,"text":"昨天那個,他快來了,快來了,自己順便等一下,昨天那個餐真的很好,我覺得很有特色,尤其那個雞湯我從來沒喝過,年糕都是他們做的,等他回來我們就開始吧,"},{"start":19363.997,"end":19367.28,"text":"現在繼續開會我們請楊耀委員質詢"},{"start":19404.738,"end":19414.204,"text":"好謝謝主席請一下農業部房間署杜署長杜立華署長"},{"start":19416.203,"end":19435.14,"text":"要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來 要不要來"},{"start":19437.669,"end":19441.75,"text":"不好意思,未完總是這樣子讓大家休息的時間不夠我常講說有八個委員會,這個委員會叫血汗委員會"},{"start":19465.157,"end":19488.688,"text":"署長我先問一下非經濟動物施打人類藥品的相關問題所以現在台灣的非經濟動物的陪伴動物的數量其實已經超過新生兒我常常開玩笑講受益比兒科的醫生還受重視"},{"start":19493.069,"end":19519.92,"text":"他們最主要對飼主來講其實寵物跟家人是很相近的最重要的當然就是要讓飼主帶寵物去看醫生的時候能夠得到及時的醫治和取得有效的藥品以現在的國際趨勢在陪伴動物的用人"},{"start":19521.345,"end":19534.203,"text":"用人要的趨勢上經常採取負面表列想請問一下署長正面表列跟負面表列各可能產生什麼問題因為我們台灣是"},{"start":19536.639,"end":19551.94,"text":"國際上多數是負面表列我們採的是正面表列各有什麼優缺點各可能產生什麼問題跟委員報告因為這個法在做溝通的時候大概都是朝向正面表列去列"},{"start":19552.961,"end":19560.887,"text":"那所以說他以目前來講登錄到人用藥的部分也已經達到700多項那事實上他會再滾動減少會再繼續往上升那這701項大概藥證的部分應該就有一萬張的藥證也就是說現在"},{"start":19570.935,"end":19589.208,"text":"動物醫院或獸醫師要用藥的應該可以得到滿足最大最大數最大數的一個滿足那假設說真的有緊急用藥或特殊性用藥的時候又有一個平台也就是說你可以透過這個平台來做申請那快速審核以後也可以讓你從國外進來"},{"start":19591.551,"end":19607.554,"text":"那蘇長你能不能也大概講一下這個平台的審核是誰在審核像我們提出申請然後我們有透過這個全聯會藥師的全聯會藥師全聯會獸醫師全聯會所以提出申請以後都會快速審核然後通過了以後就直接可以向國外來禁藥"},{"start":19619.755,"end":19630.787,"text":"因為正面表列最大的缺點就是用藥的彈性比較不足啦對不對就是因為因為只能夠在那是因為原來是144項只有216件所以相對是我們的701項"},{"start":19635.251,"end":19660.688,"text":"相對是比較少大概僅有20%表列的內容比較不足有時候比較會有問題因為人用藥這一塊的登記跟核准的已經有701項但你轉到動保用藥就是原來的法規上辦法上那你轉到這裡只有144項所以你看到這個差了500多所以大家會緊張會焦慮也就是因為說缺口那麼大那是不是我平時想用的這個藥沒有辦法得到滿足"},{"start":19662.929,"end":19675.995,"text":"那現在就是已經把這個障礙排除了也就是701項直接可以讓我們公告為動保用藥所以它用藥已經得到最大的範圍的開放度所以署長這個還是要加強宣傳因為我剛剛講了就是"},{"start":19688.318,"end":19704.212,"text":"寵物的數量越來越多那家人的焦慮在政策上可以的話就盡量滿足他們的因為政策拍板以後我們就全力全國開始宣講然後也會跟相關的團體來做溝通"},{"start":19707.56,"end":19728.236,"text":"政策大概什麼時候拍板應該這幾天如果說整個註銷公告那那完整程序的以後那大概就就相對性會提出另外一個新的辦法那假設我們雙農衛雙方那也有共識那也政策也是往這個方向的時候"},{"start":19728.676,"end":19750.054,"text":"我們就會把草案來跟全國所有的利害關係人來做溝通那如果大家在這個溝通的意見又聚攏改變不大那我想這個要實施要公告實施可能速度就會加快所以這個行政程序沒有辦法免除對當然當然我的意思就是說在政策推出以後"},{"start":19752.957,"end":19767.515,"text":"政策的宣導其實還是很重要我一直覺得執政團隊對於各方面的政策宣導其實是比較不足那這個當然原因不在於不全然是執政團隊的問題"},{"start":19769.798,"end":19784.683,"text":"因為現在就是資訊太過多元然後雜亂所以很難聚焦那我們可以做到還是要把它做好好不好委員可不可以讓我補充一點點"},{"start":19786.365,"end":19811.671,"text":"其實這個這個辦法是從104年啟動動保法的修正以後那您列的這個辦法那這個辦法因為會嫌公告是農未雙方那在這段時間104以後他也經過了104 112 117107 112等等有三次的預告時間對外對大眾的一個預告那從公布113年的2月26號公告以後"},{"start":19812.791,"end":19836.273,"text":"我們雖然大型的有15場對外的說明但我剛剛跟算了一下大四季其實這裡面的大大小小的溝通包括說明就50場了就從113年的2月26號到現在所以理論上不管工會或大型的地方的相關的團體理論上或多或少都有catch到這樣的資訊"},{"start":19838.755,"end":19855.97,"text":"現在是因為大家現在要施行了所以一些的問題集中的就反映出來那我覺得這可能跟時空背景有很大的改變那加上說現在的用藥的制度跟現在目前的推動的現在使用的方法跟將來被這個辦法"},{"start":19857.951,"end":19872.078,"text":"約制住有很多沒有辦法會受限制所以當然大家就會提出很多意見那也因為我們是很負責任所以針對這個辦法裡面那也有做整個大架構的修改那朝向"},{"start":19873.118,"end":19889.962,"text":"一個我們法規完備法那第二個內容裡面盡量符合現今的狀態那讓動物的生命權跟醫療權都可以獲得最大的保障然後也讓你的公藥或使用跟管理都能夠更加的完善大概是這樣子"},{"start":19890.951,"end":19908.039,"text":"那署長我還是再問一下就是說因為人類用藥有很多是必須要嚴格管制流向的對不對要不然可能造成譬如說濫用抗生素等等的問題那你們"},{"start":19909.656,"end":19924.607,"text":"那未來不論是藥局將藥品寄放到售醫院或者是售醫院直接向藥商購買人用藥品怎麼建立流向的管理"},{"start":19925.585,"end":19949.762,"text":"大委員就是大家很關注也是這個衛福部也很關注的管制用藥對這個可能你們要跨部會去做是是是已經有共識就是針對一些管制的部分雙部會會去爐列出來以後那我覺得針對這一些受關注的這些的一個藥品的部分那當然他的管理的一個強度跟流向的殘暴的一個那個強度跟頻度都會再加強"},{"start":19951.303,"end":19973.637,"text":"現在還沒有就是會在以未來我們的辦法跟執行上都會納入到裡面來做最大的頻率跟管理制度上的加強一方面也要保障寵物的生命安全另外一方面當然相關的管制藥品應該怎麼跟"},{"start":19975.069,"end":20003.872,"text":"跟衛福部這邊做一個溝通不能說就在人的部分管制的結果非經濟動物的部分沒有因為人用藥畢竟它已經非常成熟的制度我們還是要借盡他們的我就是說因為衛福部這邊已經有一個很嚴格的把關的機制在所以你們可能要跟他們做一下會在行政院體系下我們會合作 同意合作"},{"start":20004.232,"end":20009.874,"text":"好 謝謝署長 謝謝主席謝謝委員謝謝楊浩偉的諮詢 現在請洪玉祥委員諮詢謝謝主席 我們有請這個農業部農業部杜律師 杜署長派洪委員好"},{"start":20035.448,"end":20054.988,"text":"我想這一次這個是搞得大家人仰馬翻你可能知道我們這個地方的這個黨部的電話接不完那接不完反映的是什麼我想這個你在FB上面或者是在所有的這個網站那我們接的電話都是這種"},{"start":20056.604,"end":20073.55,"text":"我的毛小孩醫用氧氣不足拿罪藥然後我半夜要去拿東西我想這你們該都知道那受醫師就說毛不合道然後就是這些東西問他說這怎麼辦什麼沒有登錄這就是問題這已經發生了那我的問題就是說奇怪"},{"start":20082.553,"end":20092.581,"text":"這個東西他如果按照我們之前這個剛剛這個農業部這個也說了其實這個問題起源很早了"},{"start":20094.315,"end":20121.824,"text":"20可能我看是在2012年事件發生以後對那因為他很多事件啊有很多事件的交錯啊比如說你可能這個呃獸醫在用的時候用到尾藥嘛然後發生一些風波嘛對不對然後這一個呃我我我這個藥商對不對他可能也怕觸法嗎所以我也不能不敢供貨給這些的動物醫院所以呢在呃我們動保法那時候"},{"start":20123.064,"end":20148.551,"text":"也就是在我們動保法第4條裡面第二項我先稍微念一下這個我想早上我也聽過這個我想講了很多治療動物疾病之藥物不足只有中央主管機關公告之人用藥物類別得了獸醫師括號佐填入診療紀錄使用於犬貓及非經濟動物那你的第三項基本上就是你會在根據前項這些人用藥物制定"},{"start":20149.411,"end":20167.757,"text":"這樣子的一個管理的一個辦法所以我這邊的用字不好不要寫修正 自定對不對管理辦法我們是不用審的就送來備查因為就是你衛福部跟農業部的事情好 113年就公告了對不對113年就公告"},{"start":20169.246,"end":20194.825,"text":"再來是7月要實施嘛公告寫了這一堆我想這個當然藥商有藥商的困擾啦因為他整個包裝啦食材成分啦對不對然後副作用等等用量這些都要做那我們也都清楚反正獸醫師現在目前醫藥也沒有分離嘛所以你們在這個第四條這個就是使用管理辦法裡頭能用藥品都有保護藥品這些等等"},{"start":20195.826,"end":20204.493,"text":"這也都有寫了很好啊都寫了可是就在要實施的時候哇一堆的火就跑出來了就很奇怪啊就兩年了你要公告之前我就在想這就是奇怪了行政的怠惰就在這邊啊你也知道要藥商要去登錄嘛"},{"start":20219.775,"end":20244.174,"text":"可是他登錄就是很麻煩還是說他登錄的意願不高不管是誘因不足嘛我們也知道動物用藥在人用藥的話量就很少嘛我不需要我花這麼多錢去做這台藥品可是這個跟我們這些毛氏族跟都是寵物的對不對我們毛小孩這些的氏族跟這些獸醫師來講他就造成很大的suffer"},{"start":20246.243,"end":20255.014,"text":"好所以呢這個地方哎兩三百萬嘛對不對選舉也快到了呢啊現在帶這個康出來我就覺得怪了"},{"start":20255.916,"end":20280.639,"text":"然後我們還被青鳥車一甩鍋說這個是我們前領域軍委員用的完全就不是嘛當時鑰匙理會是這個黃金順現在的總統府的國策顧問然後這個辦法也不是說我剛剛講過管理辦法嘛這你們送來立法院備查我們也不用審而且他是2月20幾號送過來的才剛當2月1號不久不可能去制定法案"},{"start":20281.553,"end":20308.832,"text":"所以我是覺得這些東西就是造成了大家的很多的痛苦那我的意思是說為什麼會這樣子就是民意的反撲之後然後你們也慌張的開了4月12開個會最後喊卡那當初制定這個管理辦法為什麼會這樣那個好報告委員是如果委員今天如果想去看這個原來的公告辦法"},{"start":20310.185,"end":20330.962,"text":"那這個原來的辦法會今天自然難行是第一個他一定要人用藥轉為動物用藥所以他一定要登記那剛剛您也有談到我在登錄的過程之中我今天是人用的藥商我要轉個身份到動物的藥商除了你來登錄我還是要再強調其實我們登錄一定簡便話"},{"start":20332.386,"end":20338.61,"text":"一週你來申請登錄所以是誘因不足我再簡單更簡單一點因為時間不多所以說他考慮的很多當然有誘因也是一個問題成本也是一個問題那第二個就是貼標籤要標籤化你要貼標籤好那我比方說我們今天有一個十盒一個外包裝"},{"start":20354.221,"end":20360.646,"text":"那麼依照我們現有的方法你講的都困難嘛但是這個離毛小孩離寵物離動物的東西所以我要說為什麼這個辦法這個辦法自然來行我現在時間快一點因為早上我請這個這個衛福部可能署長就好了啦部長坐就好了啦你們吃飯坐就好了來"},{"start":20373.444,"end":20396.869,"text":"就是啊你們兩個鼠吼啊丁哥那亂七八糟現在根據早上吼衛福部部長的說法也就是說根據動保法第四條第二當你們現在暫緩實施甚至剛剛你講過的對不對我們就是把它公告這個作為辦法先註銷那這樣子的話我根據動保法第四條第二項現在本來就可以用嘛是吧好"},{"start":20399.83,"end":20425.968,"text":"知道我們的這個台大獸醫系的名教授對不對葉立生農業部應該知道嘛去看一下人家FB現在這些獸醫師反映的是這些很多藥我拿不到比如說像這個寄生的沖洗液中孔大孔的非常好沖洗現在只有小孔可以用然後你跟他藥商訂貨說現在沒辦法我沒有登記所以我就不用"},{"start":20428.267,"end":20439.522,"text":"他寫的這不是我寫的你們去查沒有不用說明了我就是說你們常常跟我們講說沒問題都不會有對不對早上部長也這樣都不會有也有但是現在收益室的反應就是沒有嘛"},{"start":20444.571,"end":20472.23,"text":"那藥廠給你的回答就是說對不起我現在就不出貨很多喔你去看這個葉老師的這個FB他是請各個收益師東西列出這個所以你們要去體察這些的民情好不好那我是覺得針對這些東西既然我還是覺得有一個矛盾啦如果你根據第四條第二項現在就可以用的時候然後你這個辦法也註銷了對不對你也說現在都可以了那我就請各位真的"},{"start":20473.806,"end":20485.705,"text":"不要再制定了還是你要制定出來又會產生新的災害我不知道因為如果根據我們石部長講的動保法第四條第二項我只要經過主管機關公告就可以了是不是這樣目前"},{"start":20489.485,"end":20515.798,"text":"後面的是我們在第三項裡面特別提到那使用管理的辦法所以現在是要在辦法的部分讓他的管理能夠更清楚因為除了使用現在辦法還沒出來我們部長就說了啦對不對你們先註銷然後收益師都可以要保障用到藥起碼在這個短期的期間你們要去看看這個葉教授的對不對哪些是有缺的這個是你們兩個鼠要去通力合作"},{"start":20516.538,"end":20527.291,"text":"沒問題 我們這部分也有跟我們的藥可以啦 就緊急用藥的啦然後讓獸醫師診所這些東西可以照顧我們這些毛小孩的氏族可以啦 是的OK 好 謝謝謝謝 謝委員謝謝洪義祥委員的諮詢現在請張雅琳委員諮詢"},{"start":20541.687,"end":20548.604,"text":"好 主席 我們有請農業部的房間署跟食藥署吧有請杜署長 江署長"},{"start":20553.679,"end":20569.013,"text":"好 謝謝那我想今天早上其實已經聽到就是說我們這個辦法會註銷那我先簡單問一句那這個因為我看到新聞上面也有講說我們好像也有在新的辦法在討論了對不對好 那我想要先確認幾個事情因為我們之前這個爭議其實真正的關鍵在於說"},{"start":20572.936,"end":20587.349,"text":"其實不是申請有多複雜啦也不是門檻有多高啦其實就是後面的出貨行政作業太複雜啦程序太複雜因為呢人用藥轉為動物用藥之後的貼標制度到目前為止這一塊其實並沒有被真正的解決"},{"start":20592.149,"end":20610.476,"text":"所以人用藥之所以要貼標這主要就是要做用途區隔跟流向管理也就是避免誤用在人身上同時讓主管機關可以掌握藥品的流向那但是呢這整個制度呢問題就是在於這整個制度忽略了一個最基本的問題就是GMP的制度"},{"start":20612.496,"end":20631.162,"text":"這邊跟委員報告一下我們現在藥廠當然是PIC GMP的藥廠我們針對這個貼標轉換成我們現在的動物保護用藥的過程當中如何協助它貼標在貼標的過程其實我們會跟農業部這邊協作不一定要在PIC GMP廠內做貼標我們可能是在盤商可能是在經銷商"},{"start":20632.643,"end":20646.581,"text":"過去有跟大家溝通這件事情嗎跟藥廠溝通這件事情嗎這件事情我們在新的制度持續的把這件事情能夠確立下來因為最後的方式的話還需要有很多stakeholder的溝通所以這邊我們持續會做的"},{"start":20648.123,"end":20667.893,"text":"好我了解了因為我想這個我不太確定是多久以前有溝通但是因為這是我們最近這段時間跟藥商這邊來了解了他們提到的問題其實是在這裡就是這個異地貼標對大家來說難度實在是非常的高所以就是說他們也有提出一個解方既然因為你已經也非常你們也非常清楚了就是說"},{"start":20670.358,"end":20689.277,"text":"大家的期待就是說我們不要選擇成本這麼高也這麼不符合食物的管制方式我們可以透過中盤來做標示分流甚至搭配流向申報或是記錄機制來達到同樣的管理目的那這樣子呢可以避免藥廠因為GMP批次出貨整批改標所產生的高成本"},{"start":20690.638,"end":20714.146,"text":"那也能夠維持藥品的流向可溯及性甚至更貼近食物流通的運作方式那這個看起來剛從您的回答裡面也是你們雙方都已經同意了往這個方向來努力對嗎對的謝謝委員的提示也是整個的方向這樣子對能夠貼近使用端能夠取得方便性以及在藥商供應的時候他們也可以完成我們的標示的辨識性"},{"start":20716.627,"end":20737.277,"text":"我想我還是會覺得說我們在整個處理的過程之中我們應該有行政怠惰因為這件事情其實如果更早之前我們了解為什麼藥商來登記這麼少的時候就應該要積極來協助而不是等到現在這個時候才來想這個辦法再來就是說我們新的辦法會不會從負面表列的方式來處理"},{"start":20738.758,"end":20762.354,"text":"這也是大家非常關注的因為其實最主要是說我們對於一些基本的胃藥工具像是ECC的針頭來說或者是脫水常用的乳酸鄰隔試液與蝴蝶針或者是兔子等特殊寵物要用的這個優利酥保濕型點眼液這基本上在現在的藥局不管是連鎖的社區藥局它通通都領不到它通通都買不到所以"},{"start":20763.214,"end":20782.313,"text":"大家就會期待說我們是不是可以像多數國家一樣是採取負面表列的方式或是類似的制度也就是原則性開放例外限制並搭配受益的專業判斷跟事後管理而不是全面的事前限制所以我想了解我們新的方法新的辦法是不是也可以往這個負面表列的方式來努力呢"},{"start":20783.878,"end":20808.704,"text":"這邊跟委員做一些說明的確委員這邊做了非常完整的一些說明那以美歐日三個區域來提的話管理機構在美歐其實是分別是FDA跟EMA可是在日本的話其實就像我們類似台灣我們是其實很多是跟日本制度比較近一方面是後生勞動者一方面是農林水產省的就一個人一個是動物"},{"start":20809.324,"end":20825.683,"text":"那採取的方式供藥的部分其實是藥局或者藥商都是採取雙軌制對於正面表現負面表現的部分我們看到日本其實是原則上面規範如果沒有替代用藥那獸醫師會做判斷所以我們現在目前對於動保用藥"},{"start":20826.804,"end":20844.759,"text":"也經過就我們了解是雙方做一些溝通之後也跟我們的獸醫師能夠確立哪些是需要的能夠進入我們的所謂的動保用藥目前是偏向這樣負面表列這個部分我們持續在這個部分我們會針對這個部分去思考"},{"start":20845.552,"end":20866.368,"text":"我想部長可能要補充 對嗎好 我來直接把這個做一點原則性的因為在動保法的第四條第二項談到是藥物就是當動物用的藥物不足的時候由人用藥物這邊公告去使用那藥物包含了醫材跟藥品那從醫材的角度來看"},{"start":20868.349,"end":20884.619,"text":"這個選擇性太多我們沒有辦法正面表列做不了所以醫材的部分應該採用負面表列它的這個風險管理程度也比較低就只要針對一些非常高風險的去排除就好但是藥品的部分"},{"start":20885.199,"end":20907.572,"text":"那涉獵的風險度就比較高裡面有很多是麻醉藥啦很多管制藥抗生素等等的那可能初步還是用正面表列那麼會比較安全性的管理所以大概可以採取這樣的方式來思考因為它這個法裡面把這個藥物兩個通通框進來了醫材跟藥品都框進來"},{"start":20908.052,"end":20918.238,"text":"好 了解 那我想問一下就是說因為這個畢竟還是希望可以請聽第一線的聲音所以我想了解的是說我們現在有沒有規劃大概什麼時候會來找我們相關的不管是收費師團體"},{"start":20921.011,"end":20943.106,"text":"對 公會來討論這樣子謝謝委員因為這個新的辦法嘛 大家都非常關注對 這個註銷公告然後公告了以後那我們也會同步來討論 凝定這個草案當我們凝聚了這個草案內容以後那獲可以後 我們大概就會全國開始來溝通進行宣講然後收集大家的意見"},{"start":20944.066,"end":20965.743,"text":"對 是全國開說明會還是座談會因為這兩樣 說明會比較是我公告你 我告訴你什麼所以我們應該是座談會吧 座談會的形式收集大家的意見大概是什麼時候呢 有沒有一個預計的時程表如果我們雙方都對這個草案 我們也預定說如果達成共識的話 看給我們"},{"start":20967.304,"end":20992.778,"text":"還是要一段時間啦 可能幾個月的時間 可能三個月好 那我們兩個月之後再來關注一下你們的進度好不好因為大家都非常關注這件事情那最後一件事情就是說我上個禮拜在這個農業部的諮詢的時候也有特別提到啦就是有關於野生動物在取得藥物的時候難度非常的高畢竟相對的距離還是很遙遠畢竟在像野灣所在的台東池上想光取得人物的用藥都非常的困難"},{"start":20993.738,"end":21016.449,"text":"所以我是希望 那他們上禮拜其實也有那個林業署的同仁也有出席相關的會議所以我也是希望說在我們考量這個辦法的時候也要邀請我們野生動物相關的救傷團體林業署來去聆聽他們的聲音因為也許他們的困境又比我們想像來得更高 可以嗎已經納進來了 對 他們的意見都已經納進來了"},{"start":21018.57,"end":21036.267,"text":"對 但是你接下來還要開相關的座談會嘛這個都是一定要邀請他們的好嗎 謝謝好 謝謝好 謝謝詹雅琳委員的質詢鍾嘉斌委員 鍾嘉斌委員 鍾嘉斌委員不在接著請郭育晴委員質詢"},{"start":21045.165,"end":21048.767,"text":"好謝謝主席有請部長有請施部長各位好好部長這個關於這個4月10號我先就是代表所謂的這個厲害的關係人包含4組那先跟兩位部長包含這個我們的衛福部另外還有我們的農業部我們先表示這4月10號我們延緩這個7月1號這樣子的一個動物用藥的新制上路"},{"start":21074.958,"end":21097.914,"text":"緊急的喊煞車給予肯定但是其實在整個所有的這個過程當中我想大家不是在所謂的這個制度的設計而是整體的一個一線我們在食物的狀況所面臨到的一些困境那我再次的強調因為其實台灣有超過200萬的四主的家庭"},{"start":21098.683,"end":21126.53,"text":"另外有340萬以上的寵物那我想這個是非常龐大的一個數字那我想很多人是把我也是我家裡有五毛我有五隻我有貓有狗所以我也是利害關係人但是雖然我那天沒有參加這個研商的會議但是其實我也在場外我先表示肯定但是我想大家還是要關心憂心所謂的結構性的一些問題我先點出來"},{"start":21127.19,"end":21153.639,"text":"那包含這個用藥有沒有可能還是會被限制那另外行政的程序會不會影響整個所有醫療的一些效能那另外實務上是不是還存有所謂的灰色的地帶因為在4月10號的那天我們看到有一些一線的獸醫師他其實已經在會內已經有講了他們現在其實在用藥在取得藥物的部分已經出現困難了那我想這是已經是目前已經看到的有可能在用藥的部分會斷鏈的一個"},{"start":21155.901,"end":21170.072,"text":"狀況那4月10號已經有獸醫師提到這個問題第二剛剛我一直聽到所謂的貼標我想請問這個貼標的成本最後誰來吸收因為我們知道藥局他要控管的這些費用"},{"start":21170.692,"end":21192.204,"text":"還有誰要來負擔會不會最後他還是回過頭來轉嫁在所謂的四祖就是我的心胸我有五毛對不對會不會轉嫁在我身上那請記得我不斷的一直在強調因為現在就算我們家的毛小孩要去就醫我們的四祖是全額在負擔因為動物沒有健保"},{"start":21193.104,"end":21206.873,"text":"都沒有健保啊那請問這貼標的成本你們有想過嗎誰要來吸收誰決定吸收誰願意吸收這個很重要第三個就是要還是要回歸到我講的獸醫師的用藥自儲權一個獸醫師我請問部長您知道要養成一個獸醫師他需要多久的專業的訓練嗎"},{"start":21216.127,"end":21243.718,"text":"我記得學智商是六年至少五到七年最不好是六七年以上他才可能會是所謂的獸醫師但是問題是我們現在美其名說因為藥事法因為我們的這個人類用藥我們人用藥的部分我可能要藥師進來請問這個藥師突然進來的尷尬的一個角色可以凌駕在獸醫師用藥自主權之上嗎"},{"start":21244.858,"end":21247.42,"text":"他們比較專業藥師比較專業還是獸醫師比較專業回歸到本質我們應該是要顧慮的是獸醫師用藥的自主權好再來第四點"},{"start":21259.417,"end":21280.327,"text":"法律未接的不確定性啦雖然現在我們是延緩感覺上是放寬但是問題是一旦這個所謂的放寬的措施頂多就是仰賴所謂的韓式或者是用所謂的行政命令那一線的受益師還是會擔心啊我的位子在哪裡啊我今天不行"},{"start":21281.482,"end":21310.044,"text":"那或者是我今天可以我明天會不會不行我後天是不是真的就沒藥用了我想這個部分我們還是不要讓在一線的醫療的尤其是動物醫師獸醫師的身上處於長期法律的灰色的地帶在這裡我給這個兩個部會其實大家今天都有來我給幾項的建議第一我先確保獸醫師的用藥自主權我想呢在藥品"},{"start":21311.285,"end":21337.774,"text":"進入到所謂的動物醫院之前人用藥的部分當然是由衛福部來主管但一旦這個藥進入到了獸醫師的醫療現場麻煩把這個部分回歸到農業部去監管而不是兩邊對兩邊大家一直在站著自己的本位主義結果中間很大的一個空窗我要四組來負擔啊這不公平啊非常的不公平啊"},{"start":21338.614,"end":21359.75,"text":"第二點落實負面表列的過渡機制剛剛其實也有委員特別提到我想這是一個方向雖然我們剛剛有提到說包含一些比較重要的管制的藥品或者是所謂的高風險的抗生素之外那我們是不是能夠從所謂的逐向核准變成所謂的負面表列"},{"start":21360.37,"end":21386.28,"text":"我想這個是一個參考的方向也是很多的我們的獸醫師他們提出來他們希望的我們可以學美國我們可以去看日本人家怎麼做用藥的自主權也很重要負面表列也是一個可行的方向第三點明確的動物診療機構的法定地位我們讓他確定好嗎好嗎這個部分我想如果我們把所謂的動物診療的"},{"start":21388.442,"end":21405.122,"text":"機構明確列為合法的藥品供應的一個對象他就不會因為各地行政的含釋不同而會有不同的偏差這也是要維持整個所有他們在醫療上面的一個穩定的一個效率再來第四"},{"start":21406.294,"end":21434.985,"text":"也是結論啦齁急重症還有偏鄉這個可敬性的配套啊一定要到位好嗎一定要到位沒有解決我剛剛所說的這些問題之前我想這不是只有暫緩讓人家還是一樣我還是心生恐懼啊你就算暫緩我很擔心我今天你會贏的明天不會贏的啊我會怎麼樣明天我沒有空醫醫我的毛孩子他是我的家人欸那怎麼辦"},{"start":21435.905,"end":21453.585,"text":"所以我說真正的問題沒有解決之前根本不能談上路這兩個字可以嗎跟委員說非常認同這個剛剛委員所提的這幾個重要的重點跟方向這個我覺得很認同那麼為了讓大家不用"},{"start":21454.817,"end":21467.323,"text":"擔心其實這個這個辦法還沒有上路根本還沒有上路那是7月1號那因為可能很多的業者開始擔心所以不敢出藥沒有啊那所以呢我們會依據在這個新的辦法還沒有"},{"start":21470.304,"end":21493.074,"text":"這個公佈之前呢我們會由食藥署來發函給所有的藥商他們可以依據這個受醫師的請求那麼去出貨這個部分我們一定因為我們都知道目前現階段701項當中只有216項有登錄嘛真正的有登錄的這個系統當中我們看到的是140幾項而已嘛對不對"},{"start":21495.755,"end":21513.04,"text":"但是這個701項之後還會增加呢還會再增加呢我們現在第一步就是至少這個701項一定可以穩定供應不會受到困擾藥商就是可以直接提供給受益室來使用不用繞過藥局"},{"start":21514.92,"end":21539.366,"text":"第二個呢這個在獸醫的治療上面並沒有這個醫藥分業所以還是由獸醫師來主導所有的治療診斷跟用藥包含藥物的這個調劑這些都是他並沒有跟這個人醫一樣有醫藥分業的制度這個我們也把它確認那麼第三個呢那未來在這個制度設計的時候"},{"start":21540.566,"end":21555.34,"text":"那一定會考量到剛剛您提到這幾個夜間那麼其實人藥也是一樣啊也有夜間也有偏鄉也一樣所以這個制度上呢也一定都會考量進來讓他的這個用藥的可敬性要能夠提高好"},{"start":21556.141,"end":21571.377,"text":"那也謝謝部長那謝謝農業部其實願意傾聽這個一線所有的市主他們的心聲動物不會講話但市主要幫忙他講話我是市主其中之一啊我也在這裡幫我的毛小孩講話可以嗎也幫一線的獸醫師加油打氣可以嗎好謝謝謝謝謝謝郭益群委的諮詢"},{"start":21581.761,"end":21589.026,"text":"鄭政權委員鄭政權委員鄭政權委員不在接著請黃婕委員黃婕委員黃婕委員不在接著請黃秀芳委員質詢謝謝謝謝主席我們請杜署長請杜署長"},{"start":21615.34,"end":21639.128,"text":"署長我相信從早上到現在很多委員都非常關心就原本我們7月1號要上路的這個我們的這個管理辦法那因為我們在前兩個禮拜也聽到很多的這個受益師跟事主的一個陳情那我剛剛也聽到就是說我們這個辦法就是先暫停註銷先註銷註銷那註銷當然就是說"},{"start":21644.372,"end":21664.793,"text":"就是還照著還是你們會再另外再另外再去自定心辦法自定心的辦法那在這當中我希望就是說能夠多溝通因為不論是獸醫師四組或者是我們的這個藥商我覺得應該是大家要多溝通"},{"start":21665.934,"end":21694.21,"text":"因為一個這個辦法要開始上路其實我不知道說前幾次你們是不是有跟這些相關的人有一些溝通那如果有溝通的話為什麼會在即將上路然後大家才會有這樣的一個意見所以我希望如果你們7月1號這個要開始這個已經註銷了那未來如果要再制定新的辦法我希望說你們真的要跟地方的人好好的溝通"},{"start":21695.531,"end":21701.399,"text":"另外我們也提到關於我們房檢署這邊也有說701項人類的藥品可以供犬貓來使用其中216項是有登錄"},{"start":21711.952,"end":21728.505,"text":"當然就是說其實為什麼藥商他不願意去登錄或者是說是因為太麻煩嗎或者是因為這個市場太小對市場太小對那這個如果是市場太小的話那是不是有什麼樣的更"},{"start":21729.446,"end":21752.704,"text":"更方便的方式譬如說你剛剛有說這個可能要貼標籤那會不會又增加這個成本或者是說可以讓他們用更方便的方式那又可以管理的方式來登錄我覺得這個也許可以再跟這個藥商可以再多溝通謝謝委員 已經在往第一個"},{"start":21753.184,"end":21769.023,"text":"他已經沒有所謂登錄了所以701項就可以轉為這個動保用養那第二個就是說有關標籤化的這部分剛才講的GMP GDP都已經去除掉了會更簡單更簡化所以我想那意願就會高那第三個就是說"},{"start":21769.727,"end":21781.395,"text":"其他他們考量的問題就是包括說夜間 偏鄉 緊急或其他的這些全部都有納入到我們的這個思考的範圍所以我想農會兩雙方一定會就這個的一個草案內容會"},{"start":21786.059,"end":21797.536,"text":"還戴大家現在目前所有的意見然後讓大家第一個有藥可以用第二個簡化方便性、可及性甚至於特殊案例也有管道可以解決這樣的一個用藥的問題我們往這個方向來"},{"start":21802.643,"end":21824.975,"text":"我希望就是說這個風波這樣過去之後已經註銷那未來如果新的辦法出來我覺得應該是大家充分的溝通然後大家是可以接受的一個方式來上路會會會會遵守那署長另外一個問題除了這個之外我想請教就是說我們現在彰化田委地區"},{"start":21826.056,"end":21844.63,"text":"就是說花卉生產花卉生產很多的地方那在前陣子就是我們有一些花農有特別提到就是有一些花卉是從國外進來花卉從國外進來那造成這個地方的這個產業的一個衝擊可能有的是銷價競爭就有一些衝擊"},{"start":21850.154,"end":21871.648,"text":"那我想請教署長的部分就是說不論是我們的花卉或者是我們的這個農產品好像前陣子的那個蒜頭那要讓國外的這個農產品進來其實一方面花農他們的建議就是說在檢疫方面是不是可以能夠"},{"start":21872.689,"end":21888.824,"text":"這個我們這個房間署這邊能夠針對要進來的這些農產品好譬如說蒜頭他如果是有帶土的話那你們就不能那麼輕易讓他進來嘛帶土絕對是不行對那如果花卉的話如果他有某一種的這個蟲"},{"start":21891.366,"end":21903.833,"text":"蟲或者是菌那是不是也要嚴格的把關我想請教這個署長針對這一部分因為是很多農民在做一些反應因為畢竟國外的這些農產品進來其實"},{"start":21906.634,"end":21933.971,"text":"應該都是比國內的還便宜他們才會有利可圖那這些業者才會想要從國外進來那如果像這樣子的話國內的這個農產品他已經足夠供國內使用那是不是可以在這個房檢的這個部分能夠嚴加的把關從農產品如果他是帶土那會危害我們台灣的這個本土的這個農產的話那是不是可以在這方面能夠再嚴加的把關"},{"start":21935.193,"end":21945.039,"text":"謝謝委員 其實只要根部進來 植株帶進來有土 絕對是不行 是 一點都不行所以不管 譬如像現在也有一些貿易是從"},{"start":21946.542,"end":21967.02,"text":"日本進來大直的那個盆栽那個都要裸耕就是土一點都不能帶來怕一些土壤性的一個病原菌會帶進來那另外就是說每一種的植物都有它經過風險評估也有我們制定在檢疫上要檢疫的變蟲愛像那第三個就是任何的一個"},{"start":21968.841,"end":21992.279,"text":"這個邊境的一個檢疫的我們動植物的一個檢疫已經會對接到國際的相關的一個規範然後再制定我們國家比較注意的甲類啊乙類啊這樣的一個變種案去做守門員那第四個就是我們標準一定一致也就是說我們有四個分數那四個分數不管你在哪一個的港口你進來的標準一定要一致"},{"start":21993.379,"end":22016.048,"text":"那至於說國際貿易來講當我們的檢疫的標準制定以後那開放了以後那這個就走的就是國際貿易那除非有些是關稅的綁住比如有一些配額那或者是關稅的等等這些那或者是有些在中間可能涉及到我們國際市"},{"start":22017.541,"end":22032.162,"text":"要跟制定了其他的相關的一個約制可能有這樣的一個考量但是在檢疫方面以這個條件制定了以後我們就依照這個規定嚴格去做執行不會有鬆動的情形"},{"start":22033.363,"end":22054.723,"text":"我當然希望就是說在這個檢疫這方面尤其是在港口港口或者是要進來我覺得就是說房檢署第一個就是要嚴格把關那也避免就是說台灣的這個農產品會因為我們在這個第一關這個沒有嚴加的把關然後可能有一些帶土帶菌進來然後造成我們"},{"start":22056.825,"end":22067.842,"text":"這個地方的這個農產品的一個損失再來就是說這個我剛剛講的這個花卉的部分其實就是說我們的這個花卉如果可以在"},{"start":22070.89,"end":22087.223,"text":"我們這些貿易商如果要進來那他應該就是說有利可圖那如果說我們如果能夠再嚴加的來把關的話其實會讓這個貿易商也許他會覺得說那我就是直接再採購我們國內的這些花卉就好了"},{"start":22087.583,"end":22109.668,"text":"那不會從國外這樣子這個採購比較便宜的這個花卉進來我的意思是這樣子所以我希望就是說房間署在這方面應該一方面就是為了我們國內的這個農產品這個不要受到國外的這個菌或者是蟲的一個危害這個在第一關要嚴加的把關然後另外就是說在這個把關的過程當中有一些這個他們會覺得說那我要經過層層的關卡也許"},{"start":22117.35,"end":22136.5,"text":"很麻煩那我就直接採購我們國內的農產品所以我希望就是說從這個角度上面來看就是希望我們這個房檢署在這方面能夠替我們國內的這個花農也好或者是這些農民來做再進一步的一個來思考"},{"start":22138.888,"end":22162.553,"text":"最後一個補充就是跟委員報告就是說在邊境的一個檢疫方面其實我們是非常的嚴格那甚至有時候抽樣都已經加成去抽樣了那所以說我們也很害怕就是你鬆散了以後那有些病原帶進來以後那造成的浩劫真的是沒有辦法想像所以基本上來講只要是我們因斯檢疫的品項上來講"},{"start":22163.573,"end":22183.42,"text":"其實我們都這個標準都都制定在那而且是嚴格的去做執行但至於說是在貿易上的考量那可能就不是在檢疫以外做另外的一個調節機制等等這些可能是又另一個層次的一個考量了那我們當然就是希望就是說在房檢這個房檢署你們的這個職權上面能夠對於農產品的這個檢疫能夠"},{"start":22190.562,"end":22202.857,"text":"再更就是說在這方面能夠這個把關然後讓我們的這個農產品不會因為有帶菌或者是帶蟲然後進來危害我們的農產品好吧是好謝謝委員好謝謝謝謝黃秀芳委員的諮詢"},{"start":22225.302,"end":22234.162,"text":"好接下來請盧憲一召委質詢謝謝主席現在請部長我應該是最後一個了大家可以放鬆心情"},{"start":22237.004,"end":22265.365,"text":"趙偉好因為針對今天的問題大家都聽了很多那不過本席的立場就還是針對偏鄉或者是一些可以可見的一些問題在救教我們部長那其實我們剛剛看到就是其實我們是肯定我們國際談判的努力不過就我們的貿易報告裡面看看你現在看到說我們我方有承諾要中止牛舌牛精的部位還有竹香跟解凍的查驗程序所以我想說現在的"},{"start":22266.467,"end":22276.967,"text":"重心從邊境延伸到後市場跟地方端執行的時候有關風險評估配套資源資訊公開跟偏鄉的執行量是不是已經準備好了"},{"start":22279.152,"end":22296.982,"text":"而委員指的是偏鄉的量呢沒有不一定 我就是說現在我們的本來是高強度的邊境我們在邊境的茶宴現在變成是抽菸嘛 追蹤或市場的茶盒這些那我說我們有沒有比較明確的一個標準出來"},{"start":22298.587,"end":22313.897,"text":"我們一向在這個邊境查驗有一定的風險分級的抽驗標準所以可以根據查核的結果譬如說像過去已經查了大概1萬多批次都是沒有問題的那當然我們就會"},{"start":22314.737,"end":22327.549,"text":"回復到這個一般查驗規定那比例上就是從這個2到10%為主那如果有特殊的我們也會提高到20到30%所以這個會根據我們那個風險的程度來做調整"},{"start":22332.433,"end":22361.155,"text":"至於後市場的部分還是會維持原本在後市場的這個稽查方式包含標示的稽查這個散裝這個包裝或者是飲食場所這個都要明顯標示產地這個也一樣會做那另外在後市場上也會做抽驗這個產品再會回去抽它的這個萊克多巴胺的這個標準是不是符合這些都會都會按照這原本的規劃來進行"},{"start":22362.236,"end":22390.863,"text":"對 就希望說這些替代的抽菸計畫或是上的稽查分工跟地方的這些能夠用書面的形式來給委員會說明好 我們來等觀察的資料我們提供給趙總讓民眾安心好 再來就是我們現在的那個萊克多巴胺的這些檢驗方法就是現在有些就可能也會調整它的劑量或者是檢驗方法那我想說這樣的一個評估結果能不能有每一劑或是每年的一個對我們暴露以後我們對國人的一些健康的影響"},{"start":22392.457,"end":22420.257,"text":"在我們調整這個MIL標準的時候都會有事先的這個健康風險評估然後才具以參考國際的標準再根據我們所做的健康風險評估來核定至於檢驗方法最主要是對齊國際的檢驗標準不然的話那個定的標準一樣可是檢驗方法不一樣的話就會產生落差所以我們現在是一方面要把這個檢驗的方法呢跟其他國家是一致這樣"},{"start":22421.218,"end":22445.928,"text":"大家驗起來才會相同不然他驗他合格我驗會不合格所以這個要一致那標準的部分我們也是按照略略以後我是覺得說可能也是要衛福部這邊要留意是哪些族群要特別注意比如說消費者到市場或者是超商或是餐廳的時候他應該要看到什麼標示讓他警惕啊或者是說提醒自己我是覺得這個把關這個部後面這個部分應該是也要做到"},{"start":22446.328,"end":22471.238,"text":"好好對這個民眾宣導的部分我們也會來講那馬雲署的部分是大家都今天都講了很多不過我想知道說我們不能是期待業者自律嗎那個機制要怎麼做你是不是給完全給廠商去做一個類似像良心的一個所謂的剔除嗎比如說我們分選不實或者是報廢不實劉相有沒有追蹤這些有沒有做這樣的規劃"},{"start":22472.838,"end":22498.577,"text":"我們不會只靠業者自律所以在邊境的部分他還是會有處理如果他的這個比例過高的時候還是可能會整批要替回的只是說過去只要裡面有我們就整批退回那這確實是也不合時期因為在國內一樣會有同樣的狀況所以就是採取後面到指定的加工地點去做這個剔除"},{"start":22500.959,"end":22508.798,"text":"那至於說怎麼樣去管理這個剔除加工的過程那當然由我們這個食藥署會訂出相關的規範來執行"},{"start":22510.792,"end":22532.584,"text":"我是不是也請署長補充一下謝謝委員提問我們對於有些腐爛發霉的其實我們就會再製再製廠之後其實要再次確認之後才會放行所以並不是說他們的業者自律相信他這是我們行政部門持續的把關確定完之後還是會重新再看"},{"start":22534.105,"end":22549.537,"text":"剛才蘇清文講的小朋友可能吃到會死掉這樣的一個風險我是覺得說千萬不能讓它發生不然真的沒有辦法解決人命的信任接下來就是我們學校衛生法是明定不能使用基改食品"},{"start":22550.077,"end":22571.586,"text":"不過就他們現在的NTE報告就是多次我國策下這邊這方面的規定所以民眾還是會有餘力你會不會到最後會態度軟化或者是你們的心裡面的那把尺到底是不是能夠堅守這方面的一個原則各位報告在有關基改食品的部分的管理在R的裡面我們是沒有退讓所以這個我們還是嚴守我們本來的規範這個不會進校園"},{"start":22575.527,"end":22597.595,"text":"請委員放心現在是優先採購國產嘛可是如果是就偏向一些學校他是高度依賴外包的團散那你要怎麼辦去怎麼講他可能沒有告知啊或者說他去觸犯了這方面他沒有他並不知道說這些是基凱食品你要怎麼去防範學校去買到這些東西是"},{"start":22598.015,"end":22620.743,"text":"跟委員報告兩點 第一點是我們有一個實燈平台 實燈平台會把所有的食材 食材登錄在場內的我們的平台上供全民檢驗 供我們的專家檢驗第二個是我們有嚴重的罰則 最終可以解除契約以上兩點 目前的以肉食品而言 那麼我們這四年來從實施之後 我們是用一錶牌 是百分之百的用國產豬肉"},{"start":22621.883,"end":22649.535,"text":"所以我們偏鄉學校中央廚房計畫是有這方面的一個把資訊公開嗎對對是全國所有學校是謝謝那現在就針對剛才王振旭也有提到我們的機場人力那我想知道我們現在的這些的規劃是什麼因為到最後是會偏到地方政府或者是說一些地方查核的這些量能我是覺得有沒有足夠的預算跟人力去做這些事情"},{"start":22650.255,"end":22674.41,"text":"會不會有沒有做提早的一個規劃跟委員說明就是邊境的人力就是由我們中央負責那麼由食藥署那現在也向行政院多爭取的員額所以員額已經增加只是呢因為這個工作也相當辛苦啦所以沒有聘滿所以我們要想辦法改善那麼他的一些薪資條件來增加這個人才的羅製"},{"start":22675.51,"end":22704.595,"text":"至於在地方稽查後市場查核的部分那麼這個工作是屬於地方所以地方上的因應統籌分配款這個分配地方的裁員也增加了所以我們當然也會來要求在未來我們有一些補助款像這個防疫議題的這個新興計畫裡面我們也編了未來這個關於食安的預算那我們會用這個補助的時候也要求地方政府要相對的補足人力"},{"start":22704.935,"end":22707.736,"text":"人的24小時都不可能,寵物的24小時的窗口,你覺得如果真的會有的話,是不是也要公告給國人知道?"},{"start":22726.316,"end":22738.063,"text":"受醫院可以提供24小時服務的受醫院有嗎 人的都很難了 受醫院有嗎目前好像受醫院有24小時 有嗎"},{"start":22739.778,"end":22760.766,"text":"有有那我們就把它整理出來我是覺得應該給國人知道大家知道說如果真的發生什麼事他他可以就近去處理接下來一個比較他們就是常常會問的問題就是呃現在藥事法是一個法律啊然後然後我會這邊是行政命令他認為說藥商出藥給呃從醫院的話是不是違法的事情"},{"start":22761.226,"end":22781.267,"text":"好跟委員說明因為這個使用的這個動物使用這個人用藥品其實是在這個動保法的第四條第二項已經授權所以一樣是法律未接那只是說管理的規定是定在第四條的第三項的授權法規來做管理"},{"start":22781.887,"end":22804.028,"text":"所以是沒有問題還有就是負面表列就是需要現在是這樣是不是會排擠以後的動物專用藥品的研發對 這個委員提到的也是在有些國家也是這樣子就是說如果有動物的專用藥那就要排除用人藥不然就不會有這個動物專用藥的研發出來了"},{"start":22807.051,"end":22835.698,"text":"在負面表列也好或者正面表列也好都要注意到這樣的現象好你有留意到齁那前幾年我們有遇到點滴的事件那我有聽到消息說很像在當初在點滴缺乏的時候是請製造動物點滴的先去做人的那這個這個消息是真的嗎沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有"},{"start":22838.732,"end":22839.093,"text":"好 謝謝盧憲一 莊委"},{"start":22852.921,"end":22879.583,"text":"接下來請岳元之委員 岳元之委員 岳元之委員不在接著我們請王美惠 王美惠委員 王美惠委員不在接著我們請林德福委員 林德福委員 林德福委員不在接著我們請林倩琦 林倩琦委員 林倩琦委員不在接著我們請賴慧元委員 賴慧元委員 不在"},{"start":22884.52,"end":22911.635,"text":"本日會議詢答全部結束委員賴會員黃婕 徐欣盈所提書面質詢列入記錄坑登公報現在作以下決定報告及詢答完畢委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於兩周內以書面答覆委員另有要求期限者從其所定本次會議到此結束現在散會"},{"start":22930.794,"end":22931.976,"text":"再重申一次108年"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}