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我們有請部長有請馮部長周委員好"},{"start":14.381,"end":39.389,"text":"部長好我想今天最主要是要來跟部長來追一下我們的進度但是我的簡報好像還沒有出來我今天早上跟我們的民間團體還有我們的兒少團體一起開了一個記者會就是在關注我們的高溫自理政策裡面到底有沒有確實的把兒少放進去因為我想在去年的時候我也就已經提出了質詢就是針對我們的兒少的熱傷害其實這個"},{"start":42.89,"end":70.369,"text":"我們的每一年的人數其實都是在增加的今天國建署也有來我想這個都是非常明確的一個狀態那我們是希望說可以有個明確的年齡別及年齡別的風險分級以及行動建議然後還有就是說針對我們的遮蔭地表有一個一致的標準來保護我們的兒少在戶外活動的時候免於熱傷害的一個風險"},{"start":71.63,"end":98.869,"text":"但是當時環境部也有回覆我說會參照這個全球調適的目標的指標架構來跨部會研議本土化調適的指標然後評估納入下一期的這個國家氣候變遷調適行動計畫也提到說是在115年上半年跨部會研議兒少高溫調適指引因應作為指引但也有成立這個抗高溫調適對策聯盟這是目前我們所知道的進度"},{"start":99.77,"end":106.344,"text":"那我想知道就是說我們目前呢到底這個進度的狀態是怎麼樣是還在研議中嗎大概什麼時候會出來"},{"start":108.871,"end":134.486,"text":"是跟委員報告現在確實還在研議當中那我們在3月的時候是有跟各部會來討論這個下一期調適計畫然後必須要對標這個全球調適指標然後跟這個高溫的這個議題那現在各部會在研議所以我們是持續包括像下個禮拜我們還會再跟各部會來把這些目前的進度做一些彙整跟更新"},{"start":135.166,"end":143.969,"text":"那到底這個因應指引的目標因為原本是說上半年要提出那現在其實已經快要五月了上半年其實也只剩下一個月那目前的進度到底什麼時候會提出來因為我們目前規劃是在六月底的時候每一個調試領域都要有一個初稿出來"},{"start":151.252,"end":179.878,"text":"那現在就是因為大家在編轉這個調適領域的行動方案的時候我們希望說把高溫這個尤其是大各界很關心的跟兒少的這個相關的議題都能夠放進去但是也要有一個減核表跟一個目標的設定所以現在都正在討論的是這個部分那我想問一下就是說現在在討論因為現在你可以看到螢幕上面就是說美國澳洲日本其實都有針對於不同的年紀上面有一個分級所以你們的目標是往這個方向在前進嗎"},{"start":181.078,"end":208.616,"text":"其實跟委員報告第一個是您關心的比如說像公園這個小朋友或是學校裡面很多的器具都很燙很燙的那個東西其實未來我們期待是要有一個指引說必須要有什麼樣的遮蔭的一個方案近期總統府氣候變遷對策委員會要求我們要來植樹種樹的規劃裡面也把校園的林木還有小朋友從學校出來到附近住家附近的樹蔭都要顯著的增加"},{"start":209.496,"end":235.569,"text":"其實就是呼應委員的這樣的一個做法好但是其實我覺得可能除了這些地方之外還有就是遊戲場跟運動場因為這幾天在這個我先問一下好了部長我不知道你知不知道大英森林公園很多數對不對是所以想當然了這邊一定是很像對都市來說它又做到一個調節的作用比較涼爽但是你知道大英森林公園裡面最熱的地方在哪裡嗎那個沙灘中間小朋友遊戲區在整個遊戲區對對"},{"start":237.83,"end":258.926,"text":"是全部最高溫的地方而且這個溫度並沒有低於市區的平均溫度所以等於是說我如果我們沒有去考量到兒童遊戲的這個需要的空間也要去做足夠的遮蔭或者是降溫的話那這個地方其實小朋友會待很久那他就有可能造成他熱傷害的風險好那我想問一下就是說"},{"start":259.586,"end":274.745,"text":"因为其实我们这几天全中域也正在举办已经有非常多的教练跟家长也跟我反映我们的场地上面毫无遮掩等于是说赛事在进行的时候选手在等待的时候教练在等待的时候大家都赛上了"},{"start":276.221,"end":287.349,"text":"對 那所以這個運動場館應該都要全面的來做有相關的指引才對因為這個不然就只有在通道上面做降溫可是事實上大家會實際停留的特別是額上會實際停留的這個長時間的場館都沒有相關的遮影"},{"start":292.393,"end":313.54,"text":"所以這個部分預計也是會做一些調整嘛對不對針對遮蔭的部分那這個部分的話進度呢因為之前是回覆說會在下一期的國家調適行動方案那這個也是同一個時間表嗎對現在就是六月底我們希望有一個初稿出來所以這同一個時間表就對了對會提出來跟大家來做這個座談"},{"start":314.704,"end":338.144,"text":"好那我希望就是說因為我們在遮蔭的上面要包含到它的遮蔭率材料規範地表溫度上限等等讓地方可以更清楚的有一個依據可以依循可以嗎可以這個就公園綠地法這個我們目前的確有朝這方向來規劃OK好那我們就六月份再來做一下進度謝謝謝謝張雅琳委員"}]}},{"id":"168737","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168737","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5880b40c5769f1a4a71673be6f92bd63685f3e6e8cff854f2050ed7b2b649beb3679e204ee1bbe5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe","委員發言時間":"11:45:11 - 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去年就是河山場這個火災它是 它的地點也是在 並不是在這種緊要的區域那另外它也並沒有影響到 就是機組的部分跟在 並沒有到達所以意思就是說 它不會在人口密集重要的地方所以呢 就不需要讓周邊的居民了解不需要通報 是這個意思嗎"},{"start":133.428,"end":138.614,"text":"那未來如果還發生這個情形因為我們都知道啊我們每一年都有在做演練啊但是去年發生這個情形就讓我們很驚訝啊"},{"start":152.032,"end":176.553,"text":"目前電廠都跟就是像地方政府都有更緊密的一些即時的聯繫所以像就是聯絡的平台社群就是一些LINE等等更即時的聯絡平台他們都在更強化那意思就是說這個有列入檢討以後不會發生這種沒有通報沒有周知居民要不要撤離不會再發生這種事在通報的部分就是已經確實在做強化"},{"start":179.269,"end":206.895,"text":"做強化那意思就是以後不會再發生這種被詬病的事實我們會監督就是台電公司跟電廠這邊那為什麼我們會這樣子重視因為我們也很了解光是我們常常講日本寒川廢水日本寒川廢水可是在我們的對岸我們不要講日寒光是我們對岸的海邊大概中國就有20座的核電機組非常的驚人"},{"start":207.995,"end":220.383,"text":"那在這裡呢我們也看到我們現在有所謂的採樣點那有跟水勢所、海巡署、海保署還有你們偵測中心總共有107個取樣點"},{"start":222.924,"end":242.218,"text":"我想問就是面對中國地區越來越多的核電廠現在當前載運跟核組在建的就有112台新核准的有46台所以為了我們的周遭海域跟核能安全著想這107個取樣點有沒有重新檢討還是這樣就夠了"},{"start":250.025,"end":273.399,"text":"報告委員在107點其實我們有涵蓋就是剛剛圖上講的台灣海峽然後也有馬祖金門的還有澎湖的這些離島那在我們未來的因應因為這些是屬還是屬於要人工的採樣跟一個分析所以我們在下一期的一個計畫在監控韌性網這邊我們是希望在離島這邊能夠建立及時的這些偵測站那這樣的話就能夠針對這個"},{"start":280.202,"end":304.591,"text":"所以會增加就對了那我因為在大概五個月前就是上個會期你們和安會來這個地方做夜報的時候我在12月10號當時我有提醒因為民團很多人問每次都是說寒川寒川我們的這個監測儀表板公開的這個儀表板也只有看到川"},{"start":305.311,"end":324.919,"text":"但是呢穿以外的核種也蠻多的啊所以當時問你們的時候當時你們有坦言說像碳14.129目前還沒有能力去檢測所以我當時有說兩個月內請你們邀請衛福部國科會中研院就穿以外的核種對人體的危害風險檢測的技術"},{"start":326.82,"end":332.964,"text":"控管的標準要納入監測的範疇那我在這邊要很肯定因為你們回報給我的資料12月26號你們就有召開跨部會的協調我們也看到像截至目前4月份這個儀表板我們也看到跟以前不一樣了他有其他核穿以外的核種有看到色穿探絲點但實際上你們給我的報告還蠻多的包括"},{"start":356.418,"end":381.23,"text":"還有菇、鳥、地還蠻多的你們說已經改版更新放入這個儀表版當中但是我們看了一下你們之前有寫什麼合格建樹、不合格建樹但是目前這樣的一個實施範圍內建樹大於背景範圍內建樹那它到底是合格還是不合格"},{"start":383.151,"end":399.121,"text":"那包括委員因為這一些其他的河種它是屬於稀少的其實它含量很低那我們當初在大家在討論的時候因為海水它其實是沒有標準的那當然我們的環境就是我們河岸會"},{"start":400.902,"end":427.977,"text":"或者是國際的那個CODES食品的安全其實都有一個標準可是我們覺得這個值都因為它的值本身很低所以我們後來就是用背景的一個概念想說超前的去超低就叫背景對那一般人看不懂啊其實你們公開儀表板就是要讓國人安心嘛看不懂啊所以你們儀表板要不要再去多做一點改善改進"},{"start":429.664,"end":445.236,"text":"好我們這部分再會後我們再好謝謝那最後我有一個部分就是想要了解因為重啟核三嘛那四月也進入審查階段了嘛所以呢有一個公文就是四月二十八"},{"start":447.377,"end":472.277,"text":"會有一個河安會審查河山場運轉執照換發案的地方說明會那當然地方的立委你們都有邀請但是我們看到民間的部分邀請的是恆春滿洲的部分地區但是我們如果以過去電協會發回饋金它受河山影響的地區有四大鄉鎮"},{"start":473.718,"end":500.098,"text":"我們的車城鄉牡丹鄉就沒有被受邀這是什麼原因?已經邀請了有邀請了齁?因為我覺得核安安全嘛最重要的就是知情同意嘛所以這個部分你們有加邀了齁?有加邀了謝謝齁那這個部分我們也想要請教一下核電的人才因為你們要重啟案件所以我們就看到報上說"},{"start":502.523,"end":522.383,"text":"你們目前是在找那些退休老將回鍋也暴露了我們和工人才的斷層所以這個部分尤其是明年會是人力最吃緊的時候我想請教一下何安會你們有沒有做什麼因應就是關於人才的培育"},{"start":524.821,"end":545.656,"text":"有很多方面的除了在公费留学之外我们也申请很多研究计划给清华大学跟国研院培养人才你们有去学校找人了吗有有有他们愿意到你们那边工作吗现在还没有到那边我们工作还只有考试"},{"start":547.117,"end":574.451,"text":"我想这个部分我们也是很希望你们关照一下我这样是说因为其实很多的核废料储存其实都会在我们原住民的传统领域所以我希望你们也不要忘记人才在地培育这件事情我希望以后我来咨询的时候我能够听到这方面的回应因为其实在我们的公务人才培育现在考选部"},{"start":575.111,"end":591.503,"text":"他們都已經有因應的計劃中長城計劃那關於我們高等師資的一個培育原住民的部分教育部呢他們也都已經有中長城計劃出來我就是想要知道現在在我們那個地方又有國家發射廠"},{"start":592.644,"end":619.051,"text":"又有核电厂等等之类都在我们的传统领域你们刚刚自己讲嘛说那个地方是很偏远的地方比较没有人居住的地方那在地人才的培育就很重要啊那我希望这个部分也许我下一次的质询我会希望听到你们已经有中长城计划该如何做人才培育可以吗可以的谢谢主委谢谢主席谢谢委员"}]}},{"id":"168736","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168736","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5880b40c5769f1345f168d89c5899a63812774c6aab6af4f2050ed7b2b649b123254f0538377ef5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張嘉郡","委員發言時間":"11:43:28 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但是都沒有說明啊都沒有說明啊 你內部都沒有說明事實上這幾家國營事業過去都有自己購買無人機的紀錄像潭水113年就買了7架那台電截至114年8月已經買了214架那本席是絕對支持喔"},{"start":288.112,"end":298.864,"text":"使用無人機來減輕第一線人員的負擔跟讓他們的工作更安全更便利這個本席都非常支持但既然這本來就是國營事業的經營成本為什麼要由經濟部來買單因為報告委員就是說經濟部主要目的是推動產業"},{"start":307.193,"end":309.095,"text":"所以你要推動的是什麼產業無人機產業所以你要買這些無人機給國營事業用這樣子來幫助無人機產業嗎因為這個無人機產業推動它我們會設計它既定的規格然後引進事業相關的規格我就想要知道說這個預算書真的編得很粗糙"},{"start":330.572,"end":334.714,"text":"我翻遍預算書完全看不出來第一要買幾架第二要什麼規格以後具體要做什麼然後整個說明竟然只有寫依據無人機載具產業發展統籌型計畫然後辦理相關的採購具體的採購明細資質未提部長無人機的用途不一樣規格跟價格落差是很大的便宜的一萬多塊就有了然後貴的到幾十萬都有編了一億多的預算"},{"start":360.307,"end":380.778,"text":"您打算怎麼買所以我們事實上是有一個完整的計畫然後都沒有提供給我們對我們可以那個費用在那個完整的提供給我們我是建議部長說其實我們是很看重經濟部的預算我們也希望盡速的把它審查完成但是不能因為我們願意盡速你們就"},{"start":382.138,"end":388.686,"text":"隨便 然後就是很粗糙的去處理因為我舉例來說 一億多欸如果買一台一萬的 你可以買一萬多台一台五十萬的你只能買兩百台那到底是要買幾台 要買什麼規格"},{"start":398.617,"end":416.492,"text":"幾價的部分事實上都已經規劃出來了啦是啊 但上面都沒有寫啊就是完全沒有說明嘛所以我是希望說部長你們編預算的時候你們跟這個我們本會本委員會說明預算的時候也要必須要落實要仔細可以嗎"},{"start":417.994,"end":424.519,"text":"因為雖然我們中央政府致力發展無人機產業需要補充說明因為我們沒辦法空白授權給你們這種資訊不明白的預算我們經濟委員會如果空白授權給你們不是很妥當"},{"start":437.889,"end":449.214,"text":"那另外本席在翻閱我們經濟部115年度預算的這個單位預算當中發現編列的稅入只有67.98億那比去年這個稅入"},{"start":455.517,"end":477.125,"text":"82.11億元喔整整少了14.13億元喔大幅減少大概17.21%我想要問部長預估稅入大幅下降的主因是什麼關鍵數給我的資料我們是少了9億多欸少了9億多嗎你自己看你自己看82減67"},{"start":483.912,"end":506.338,"text":"這數學這麼簡單 你自己看我的螢幕82減67不就是14億嗎是 委員您問的這個數字是有關於部本部的稅務的部分是啊對 那主要減少的就是我們的那個股息紅利的腳庫因為股息紅利像轉投資都是編在部本部是 這就是我想講的你這14.13億喔"},{"start":509.305,"end":516.833,"text":"裡面投資股息紅利減少就佔了13.58億主要是中鋼還有漢翔還有台岩還有螳螂還有台船還有可威環境所以這六家"},{"start":531.863,"end":548.797,"text":"基本上已經連續這個股息已經連續4年都下降了今年跟4年前比更是直接腰斬部長這造成國庫收入大減經濟部投資管理是出了什麼問題這個是拿人民的納稅錢去投資難道不是應該更謹慎嗎因為中鋼的部分我想過去幾年因為國際的鋼"},{"start":558.005,"end":574.118,"text":"鋼鐵市場事實上市況不好因為有比較中國因為大量的這個出口我沒有針對任何一個公司我沒有針對任何一個你們現在投資的公司我只是希望說我們經濟部要投資可能也有一些是"},{"start":575.399,"end":598.684,"text":"政策性的關係也有要輔導性的關係但是呢我還是希望說就好像國發基金他也會在可能這個目標達成之後他會重新盤點嘛那我也是希望經濟部也要做對內的這些投資的盤點不能夠說就任他每年每年不斷的虧損該盤點的時候該調整這個這個"},{"start":604.185,"end":607.906,"text":"投資的比例的時候 他還是賺錢啦只是繳額比較少啦比往年少啦那我沒有每一家都賺錢 唐榮 台船可威都已經連續虧損兩年了是不是 我有沒有認證"},{"start":624.876,"end":639.802,"text":"因為台船他做了這個所以我就跟部長講我沒有針對任何一家公司就是希望針對你們部本部的這個稅入然後這個投資效益你們可以做一個內部的盤點然後能夠對於你們的這個我們納稅人的這些繳的稅呢可以更審慎的對待好不好好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168735","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168735","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5880b40c5769f1ecce62b1e4d2dbbb10d96ca025fdcb7c4f2050ed7b2b649b6b9ecd0214d1f5425ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱若華","委員發言時間":"11:41:51 - 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主委好主委先和您討論OTT目前OTT串流服務在台灣已具相當的規模了那它的商業模式也從過去單純訂閱現在已經逐步走向多元化那它也正在快速發展中那今天要請教主委相關的風險管理然後還有也跟防範詐騙有關那我們先看到OTT它的平台掌握用戶的帳號還有付款資訊還有使用資料那它以帳號為核心像是使用者的E-mail"},{"start":45.387,"end":61.467,"text":"密碼還有付款資訊那常見的狀況是有帳號外流還有盜用共享濫用黑市帳號等這是相關的問題嗎那現在已經發生有假帳號共享還有假訂閱優惠盜用帳號轉賣那想請教主委要如何來管理"},{"start":62.168,"end":76.887,"text":"是 各位报告其实ODT的部分我们在11111年其实110年5月25其实有通过一个草案对外公布然后当时当时的立法的"},{"start":77.307,"end":95.44,"text":"方向大概是說改為行為管制然後當時也有公告說達到一定規模的話必須要來登記然後可以特別義務那但是方向上還是抓大放小的層級化的一些義務但是當時對社會各界包括業者包括是您講的是當時的OTD轉發嗎那我這邊請教主委您認為它是什麼樣的服務形態"},{"start":99.433,"end":115.829,"text":"我們當時是想要管的標的對象那現在它是什麼樣的服務型態呢它還是架構在Internet上頭的一些這個主要是以PG就是專業型的一些內容產出的一些東西所以它算是類電性嗎"},{"start":117.55,"end":136.141,"text":"對沒錯他算是類電信嗎因為他跟電信服務一樣他提供通訊的傳輸還有傳送訊號那可是他在法律上明確又是不一樣的嗎跟OTT目前他不能被歸在電信管理法沒有錯吧國內的法治是這樣但國外有些南韓國家其實他是有些是用電信來的那這邊請主委說明目前針對治安的問題有沒有最低標準"},{"start":140.061,"end":160.378,"text":"資安部分嗎?對,資安的部分資安部分沒有資安社會相關資安總局官但是OTT的部分我們會我們近期會其他的營運管理部分我們會提出一個軟法的指引來出因為它現在是不受電信監理可是它有類似電信的使用者的規範還有影響它影響層面非常廣那現在因為它也確實"},{"start":161.118,"end":173.711,"text":"那用戶規模很大他也涉及帳號還有資料那他也會影響公共利益所以我想要請教主委喔那目前我剛剛有請教我們有沒有明確的保護法像這都有可能造成個資外線還要衍生詐騙的問題那要如何來管 誰來管跟委員報告即便他現在"},{"start":178.996,"end":205.238,"text":"沒有一個完整一個compact的一個作用法但是其他網路上的各個行為之對應的相關主管機關比方說剛剛委員提到了他消保問題是消保法其實一樣可以處理他的個資假設出了一些問題一樣可以處理像先前一些個案部分其實就有個資法的一些適用我們MGC這邊當時也有利益所以目前資安的保險是可以由個資法來做管管嗎"},{"start":205.478,"end":230.698,"text":"各自部分其實是各自法的規範那對沒錯那剛剛也提到因為他目前平台正在快速的變化中那像是Netflix還有HBO Plus他目前也導向也有導入廣告那面對這樣廣告的風險因為他也會存在著他過去是純訂閱那現在他有廣告加上訂閱那有很可能會有第三方的廣告出現在這個平台上面那其中的他的內容還有他的導流風險誰來做管理"},{"start":233.021,"end":251.432,"text":"如果他廣告涉及到一些跟詐騙有關其實現有有一些打造條例其實也有相關的處理那如果涉及到其他的一些虛偽不實如果看他涉及到的情況假設他涉及到一些虛偽不實"},{"start":252.092,"end":268.982,"text":"會有相關的一些刑法也好或者一些其他的一些其他個別的法律都會使用他差別只是說他完整管理他主要管理他營運的這個作用法律因為主委您剛剛有提到就是ATT專法你們目前ATT專法的進度到哪裡了"},{"start":269.878,"end":295,"text":"因為我們114年提出過草案當時社會沒有共識所以還是停在草案階段那後來因為NCC委員會沒辦法組成說現在我們也持續在更新那你們是怎麼樣去管理跟約束業者的基本上就是說我們目前的最後一版本目前手上的那個最新版的這個草案是說是抓大放小 層級化管理達到一定的規模我們會納管"},{"start":296.081,"end":318.099,"text":"只是當時在遵循各界意見的時候包括本國業者跟國外業者他們的看法會比較會有一些對立那我們也持續在做這件事情所以目前只有草案我們希望可以有更完整的包括平台他必須要負責然後也包含風險管理還有他內容的治理還有因為他必須要對他的平台透明度也要完整的"},{"start":318.779,"end":336.111,"text":"對 我也講到重點所以我們目前雖然印法作用法目前沒有辦法處理但是我們用軟法指引我們都會推出 OOTD 的相關的指引那 OOTD 剛剛我們提到的重點透明度的部分不管他是跟客戶民眾的一些申訴救濟透明度這個指引我們去年已經公佈了"},{"start":337.532,"end":354.991,"text":"所以也希望NCC不只是要求業者要自律啦因為當時候的討論111年討論可是到現在他現在已經有廣告他上面已經有廣告了嘛那當時是沒有的嘛所以這個整個整個平台跟過去是不一樣的那這邊也請NCC多加留意我會與時俱進"},{"start":355.552,"end":377.666,"text":"好 謝謝主委 那再來我也有 本席也有結果呈現民眾反映目前國內像是165詐騙還是1925安心專線等公益服務會因為業者不同的關係存在不同的收費門檻然後還有語音提示的差異那NCT這邊有沒有掌握到 有沒有進行討論呢有 其實前幾天這個媒體也有披露它重點就是說目前165也好1955也好等等"},{"start":378.286,"end":404.744,"text":"那目前相關機關大概是借借中華電信部分那其他非中華電信的電信業者他必須要去轉借到中華電信那邊去那會有一些接續費的問題那目前因為其他比方說165好了這個遠傳台客大它本身也要那這邊本身想要問的是所以你們這邊有沒有召集三大電信業者去討論的呢有 我們平台處有已經找業者但是相對的就是說165的是內政部你們有找業者什麼時候找業者的"},{"start":406.805,"end":426.443,"text":"應該是這禮拜跟上禮拜有在處理然後方向上其實大概是說請這個相關部會也是這禮拜還是上個禮拜因為我這邊了解到目前是還在研議中嘛衛福部然後還有內政部那我這邊想要了解為什麼不是NCC去主動的去找這些業者然後跟其他部會一起共同來討論看能不能制定一個統一的標準"},{"start":427.304,"end":455.06,"text":"跟委員報告這個新聞在處理的階段我們同仁其實就有跟業者來非正式的去了解溝通那後續會朝向什麼樣的收費呢後續朝向是說相關部會衛福部也好啊我們是指三大業者他們會怎麼樣來去做收費像針對這樣子的公益短碼報告委員那個主要是因為主要這兩個那個特別號碼的主政機關包含內政部警政署的165"},{"start":457.079,"end":474.724,"text":"通常這種東西如果需要供應的話其實三大業者在過去其實165以165專線來講它民國94年就配合警政署它第一個它有三大業者有做客服端所以我們現在確實看到它的那個收費標準還是有存在落差嘛那三大電信它的"},{"start":476.704,"end":503.635,"text":"他零收都是破千億所以對社會觀感來說我是希望可以朝向就是有一個標準的收費門檻或是朝向能不能就是都是免費他們主要那都是免費部分可能因為林郡縣委員辦公室也曾經找討論這個問題那內政部警政署說他同意配合編列預算來支應這部分因為既然你們已經有召開過會議了嗎那也在提供本席辦公室你們的會議記錄請送資料給委員OK好謝謝"},{"start":506.679,"end":506.821,"text":"謝謝各位"}]}},{"id":"168734","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168734","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5880b40c5769f10326b09f2a0dc22b10d96ca025fdcb7c4f2050ed7b2b649b6b9ecd0214d1f5425ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐富癸","委員發言時間":"11:31:47 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會關門大吉"},{"start":237.135,"end":255.815,"text":"我們不希望這種情況發生但是到四月底提名的還有八天我們相信行政院應該會處理我們相信各界 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部長去年11月我們有報導中國有個高德地圖部長知道這個訊息嗎我知道那您自己本身認為這個甚至國台辦已經把這個什麼我們這個能夠精準精算到台灣紅綠燈的描述跟車道一個資訊表示這個對我們這個整個國人的行蹤居住地甚至社交的一個軌跡有嚴密的監控我想部長對這個有什麼看法"},{"start":418.851,"end":437.706,"text":"這件事情我們非常的關注所以我們有去做一些那個分析跟了解那目前我們知道的狀況是說高德地圖裡面的關於台灣的地圖資料不是他們自己收集不是他們自己建的他們是跟荷蘭一家叫做Heart Technology這家公司去購買的資訊進來然後再來是他們的紅玉燈秒數的這個"},{"start":442.509,"end":468.858,"text":"估計的這個功能它並不是串接台灣交通部或者地方政府的資料庫而是它利用它的使用者的那個在紅綠燈前面等待的狀況它去推估的所以它這個功能它當然是有在宣傳宣傳說很厲害事實上只有說在那種交通比較繁忙的那個紅綠燈入口而且有比較多使用那個高德地圖的這個狀況下它才有辦法推估"},{"start":470.119,"end":482.406,"text":"但是我們覺得說最嚴重的事情是什麼就是說依照中國的國家情報法的規定就是說中國境內的組織跟人民都有責任必須支持還有配合"},{"start":486.368,"end":501.565,"text":"中國政府的情報工作也就是說這個所有民眾這個上傳的個資都有可能會有一天中國政府就是突然講說我要這個資料然後他就直接調取了不像是我們台灣我們個資保護法等等所以我們速發部現在那個資安署已經在針對這個APP進行那個檢測"},{"start":507.051,"end":520.335,"text":"確認說有這些狀況的話我們會第一個我們會那個就是要求所有的公部門就是不能使用高的地圖然後我們也會勸導民眾盡量避免使用高的地圖因為這個資安風險非常的大"},{"start":522.256,"end":551.656,"text":"部長 那你們有沒有掌握到 針對這個APP的部分是不是可以回傳到中國境內的伺服器 受益資料目前的瞭解是 它這個很多的個資都會傳回中國大陸所以我想包含我們這個總統府還有國安部相關一些我們關鍵的基礎設施聽起來他們都好像有所掌握了甚至透過一些吸收我們一些台灣人作為一些情資收集的一些管道那未來你們有沒有跟陸委會跟國安單位研究怎麼樣嚇阻這樣的一個情況"},{"start":553.777,"end":581.688,"text":"我們有跟陸委會跟國安單位我們都有在討論這件事情那目前高德地圖它的主要的使用者應該是往來台灣跟中國的這些台商那目前使用的人數還不是很多那我們現在是希望說用那個第一個是用勸導還有其他的一些方式就是降低它的使用量但是我們認為說還不需要去做那個直接的封阻那因為"},{"start":582.689,"end":592.063,"text":"直接封住有時候我知道最後還是要提醒就是我們未來的數位的防衛不應該有漏洞應該再跟跨部委來強化這應該要積極的努力謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168731","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168731","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5880b40c5769f10a27105e6dde1ac8f38d440c98c629e74f2050ed7b2b649b14e39bd33e9c15bb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王正旭","委員發言時間":"11:37:45 - 11:51:10","影片長度":"00:13:25","會議時間":"2026-04-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請環境部部長、國家科學及技術委員會、交通部、經濟部、內政部、農業部、衛生福利部、國家發展委員會就「我國氣候變遷調適現況檢討與全球調適目標接軌之推動情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查中華民國115年度中央政府總預算案關於環境部主管預算案。(公務及非營業特種基金預算案)\n三、審查中華民國115年度中央政府總預算案直轄市及縣市政府一般性補助款環境部主管部分預算。\n四、審查環境部函送財團法人環境資源研究發展基金會等4家財團法人115年度預算書案。\n\n【預算案僅詢答，115年4月30日下午5時截止收案】\n【專題報告及討論事項綜合詢答】\n\n【4月22日及23日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-04-22","start_time":"2026-04-22T11:37:45+08:00","end_time":"2026-04-22T11:51:10+08:00","duration":805,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":5,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-5-26-7"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7.40534375,"end":8.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9.396593750000001,"end":10.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.45971875,"end":11.505968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14.239718750000002,"end":33.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":34.455968750000004,"end":65.33721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":65.89409375000001,"end":93.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":93.31596875000001,"end":97.50096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":97.55159375000001,"end":101.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":101.97284375000001,"end":118.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":119.37096875,"end":126.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":126.39096875000001,"end":126.40784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.40784375000001,"end":157.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":157.87971875000002,"end":166.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":166.57034375,"end":188.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":189.35159375,"end":198.44721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":199.03784375,"end":223.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":223.99596875,"end":228.46784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":228.97409375,"end":233.04096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":233.04096875000002,"end":291.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":291.64784375,"end":344.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.41346875,"end":306.75096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":345.36096875000004,"end":379.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":379.19534375,"end":433.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":432.35159375,"end":445.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":442.64534375000005,"end":443.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":444.13034375,"end":444.70409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":445.48034375000003,"end":445.63221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":445.78409375,"end":446.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":446.84721875,"end":468.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":468.75096875,"end":471.43409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":471.97409375,"end":481.40721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":481.71096875,"end":497.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":497.60721875,"end":497.75909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":497.75909375000003,"end":519.5278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":519.8484687499999,"end":520.1184687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":521.0803437500001,"end":524.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":525.77159375,"end":526.2609687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":526.75034375,"end":528.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":528.5053437500001,"end":532.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":528.60659375,"end":528.8090937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":532.6228437500001,"end":546.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":546.6797187500001,"end":552.7547187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":552.51846875,"end":552.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":552.53534375,"end":553.1765937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":553.05846875,"end":558.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":558.69471875,"end":563.1328437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":563.4365937499999,"end":577.8647187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":578.23596875,"end":595.4822187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":595.4822187500001,"end":649.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":649.3134687500001,"end":651.0347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":651.0178437500001,"end":658.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":655.30409375,"end":655.6922187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":658.40909375,"end":658.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":658.4428437500001,"end":686.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":686.8603437500001,"end":690.5053437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":690.8428437500002,"end":702.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":702.9422187499999,"end":729.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":729.7903437500001,"end":747.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":748.01534375,"end":767.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":766.0209687500001,"end":797.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":798.1340937500001,"end":805.9640937500001},{"spe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Index在2025年的時候呢我們全台灣的排名是第10名看起來成績還算是讓大家可以接受那其實這是一個熱商管理學院瑞士跟韓理事基金會共同發布了一個研究在國際間有一定的這個參考的"},{"start":80.786,"end":107.1,"text":"一個價值的評比工具這個評比主要是在針對各經濟體在經濟社會環境三維度的一個永續貿易的表現那其實也是我們很重視的一個重要的參考指標在2023年的時候我們是第10名那2024年我們是第9名那2025年會回到第10名就是好像他在進步的部分沒有非常的"},{"start":107.72,"end":118.016,"text":"讓我們覺得很明顯那這樣這個指數的表現不是環境部單一部會可以能夠來解決的會涉及到跨部會的這個協力的表現"},{"start":119.5,"end":142.712,"text":"想要請教部長就是這個指標沒有明顯的進展不知道部長怎麼看這樣的意涵包委員我們那個資源循環推動法其實就要把這個概念放進去我相信我們那個法案如果在大院如果通過的話其實對我們整個循環這個永續的這種供應鏈會更完整那過去其實"},{"start":143.172,"end":157.168,"text":"我必須說雖然我們很努力但是法規政策預算其實或是整個人力的投入都可能還不夠所以我們現在希望說未來這個部分謝謝委員給我們這樣的數據我們希望未來可以往上走"},{"start":157.915,"end":182.086,"text":"好謝謝謝謝部長對他們的這個了解跟掌握未來可以再進步的部分其實剛剛講的是全指標那再過來針對環境部在掌管的環境指數方面我們的評比是第12名這個第12名其實跟之前相比真的是好很多在2023年的時候我們是第27名"},{"start":183.246,"end":198.044,"text":"那2024年那個時候部長剛上任那個時候已經進步到第16名那現在去年就更進步到12名表示說我們這方面的這個努力環境部的確可以看到很亮眼的成績可是我們看到"},{"start":199.085,"end":223.184,"text":"比較擔心的就是有幾個指標其實還是相對落後包括我們森林砍伐是第29位人均二氧化碳的排放第25位再生能源的再利用等等是27位其中還有兩個部分叫做廢水處理率跟生態足跡那時候甚至是沒有提供資訊給他們做排名的參考所以"},{"start":224.045,"end":250.103,"text":"部長怎麼看這樣的表現就是在這方面的結構上跟您剛剛所提到的進步的方向有沒有一致謝謝委員那個森林砍伐其實過去不是環境部主導的但是現在因為總統要求環境部要來整合都市林的部分我希望我們開始推動那個都市林要這個樹要倍增的這個方案可以把這個名次我們就會往上提升"},{"start":251.023,"end":275.108,"text":"人均的二氧化碳排放量我們是持續的降但是必須說因為整個我們的經濟發展實在太好了所以基本上我們的減碳的確都在每年2-3%我們今年開始的壓力才大我們減碳是要減到4-5%左右所以這個我們會努力再生能源就是屬於經濟部他們要做的工作其實現在的確會遇到一些波動"},{"start":275.848,"end":289.046,"text":"但是我目前我跟他們討論的時候其實他們還在往這個方向上面例如說再生能源要20 2030年要30這樣的目標要再前進我希望說我們如果有這個顯著的目標的話將來這個名次應該都還有機會再提升"},{"start":291.81,"end":305.28,"text":"是 那我們當然是希望整體排名能夠提升的同時其實是在各方面尤其在指標上面也不要有一部分落後太多那個才代表我們是整體的在進步謝謝部長這方面的說明"},{"start":307.822,"end":324.796,"text":"那再過來是醫療廢棄物去化跟落實循環的部分如何能夠提升這個再利用率我現在雙法處理以後呢應該會逐步的來改善這種狀況其實不管是一般廢棄物或者是失業廢棄物我們的這個去化量很多已經非常的緊繃相對來講可能"},{"start":327.018,"end":342.656,"text":"大家要持續更努力那如何能夠提升這個再利用力落實這個循環永續尤其在醫療廢棄物的部分因為我本身是出自這個醫療單位所以會相對比較關心那我們知道其實整體來講這個醫療廢棄物它的占比"},{"start":345.439,"end":359.775,"text":"其實並不多只佔0.63%可是如果說我們要希望能夠這個資源循環零廢棄這樣的政策目標不應該有任何一個部門要被忽略如果被忽略掉的話就沒有辦法"},{"start":360.356,"end":376.574,"text":"能夠真正的達標那我們也知道這個醫療廢棄物其實有它在利用上的一些困境包括說有感染的風險啊 增加的危險等等那處理的費用其實也是相對可能比其他的部門還要高一些"},{"start":377.054,"end":398.549,"text":"可是不管怎麼樣還是恆青部基本上是一個整股廢棄物的這個主管機關所以還是得擔負起這個體制制度的設計跟這個政策引導的責任所以除了衛福部自己努力以外所以部長有三點要請教就是對於這個醫療廢棄物持續上升會越來越多的趨勢"},{"start":399.269,"end":415.961,"text":"那環境部目前有沒有具體因應的策略這個策略應該只是在監測跟管理而已有沒有更好的政策工具第二點就是是否能夠針對醫療廢棄物訂定更明確的處理跟再利用的準則可以讓大家有所根據"},{"start":416.661,"end":445.368,"text":"第三點就是能不能考慮跟衛福部合作先有一些示範性的示範計畫未來大家有一個標竿學習的機會那這個示範計畫可能要選定幾家醫院那真的這三點部長有沒有什麼樣的好謝謝謝謝王委員因為我禮拜天的時候有遇到這個劉玉平劉師長他是主管這個醫療廢棄物的我們有交換一下意見那我是不是請我們副署長能夠來回答這個事情未來法的過後會我們一起來主導好"},{"start":445.928,"end":467.711,"text":"有請副市長檢要報告委員,我們幾個做法,我們其實今年已經跟醫事室開始合作那委員所提到的減費,其實就是第一個我們跟醫事室要針對幾個項目像是塑膠或常用的用品,我們不只是做一個平常的在利用而已我們希望做高質化的循環,但是對於醫療院所的人員"},{"start":468.812,"end":495.96,"text":"他可能要知道更多的做法心裡要有更大的信任感所以這個東西我們要合作訂出一個指引也就是委員剛才垂詢的部分要讓大家更知道第二個就是說像有一些像是在利用的部分其實現在的在利用已經是60%了那我們這個部分其實也一直持續的在跟醫術師跟醫療院所看能不能滅菌消毒等等或是少用這個都會持續的在努力現在滅菌已經達到26%"},{"start":497.7,"end":523.9,"text":"是 好 看起來兩個部會其實也對我在積極的處理這個議題不過我們在兩年前其實那個時候有請教過貴部就是有關於這個輔導醫療機構的執行內容不知道到目前為止有沒有比較好的執行方式或者是有沒有示範的案例可以給我們做參考報告委員 我們從這兩年已經跟"},{"start":527.161,"end":543.06,"text":"醫療部份是衛福部,其實部裡面不只是循環署、空品、水溫防治等等我們都有一個綠色醫療的推動方案,那我們有訂出不同類型的KPM不好意思因為我今天那個數據"},{"start":544.201,"end":561.557,"text":"沒有準備在身上,這個是不是我們另外再跟我們報告好,那就麻煩布里是不是提供這個可以讓我們看到的成果報告沒問題最後一個部分就是有關醫療機構減碳的政策其實我們在2027年希望能夠完善整體的總量"},{"start":563.539,"end":589.022,"text":"管制碳交易的部分2028年就要開始實施那現在醫療機構相信也是一個重要的部分雖然它整體的排放量佔比只有0.9%即使把這個醫療供應鏈相關的合併計算是4.4%其實這個佔比也在逐漸的上升當中所以綠色醫療跨部會的政策環境部目前的政策方向有沒有已經確定下來了"},{"start":589.802,"end":618.155,"text":"還有環境部可能可以協助醫院來做這個節能的具體方案嗎這個部分請教部長謝謝委員其實目前的我們認為醫院所要做的是節能節能就可以幫醫院減少開支醫院就財務就負擔不會那麼重所以目前長庚醫院做得最好那目前的這個慈濟醫院他現在我們經過我們協助輔導之下又給他們補助一些經費然後他們自己很努力也加入了ASCO的方案所以長庚集團"},{"start":619.815,"end":648.958,"text":"慈濟整個醫療體系會是下一個那其他的呢我們都有在參與但是這個很多的醫院或許他的這個有別的考慮啦真的比較慢那我們會再努力一下跟每個醫院不過因為很多的醫院我們是跟他們一直提醒要減碳要知道自己的用電從ESCO去做是最好的不見得要馬上去算那個碳他只要把這個用電節下來他的碳就跟著減了所以這個部分我們會再積極跟他們的永續長一起來這個努力"},{"start":649.398,"end":671.065,"text":"所以是有具體方案在執行有已經都有在做但是有時候到最後一里路就是這個醫院願不願意真的跳下去做X口有時候有些醫院真的不大願意好那如果具體方案的話也可以給我們一個書面報告好不好一個月裡面這邊經濟部能源署好像陳副署長也在現場剛剛部長有提到這個節能的部分非常重要"},{"start":671.585,"end":688.373,"text":"其實醫學中心真的是他為了要讓整體的環境尤其這個照顧可以更為完整所以這個用電真的是無法真的做有效的節能不過醫學中心裡面這個所有的能源用電電力佔了79%"},{"start":691.435,"end":708.213,"text":"這個電力裡面耗電當中空調又佔了15%照明佔了30%所以如何能夠讓這個節能的管理重點發揮作用這個就必須要相關的部會一起共同來努力"},{"start":708.934,"end":728.666,"text":"那這個部分呢我們如何能夠透過經濟部能源署來協助做一個節能的一些相關的處理模式那我們也了解這個經濟部其實是有一些補助的方案那這個補助裡面最近四年發現說補助三四二次的這個"},{"start":730.007,"end":747.215,"text":"醫院裡面呢公立的占了一半左右表示說公視率其實都有這個需求不過好像整個量並不是那麼足夠那114年度84件案裡面呢有19件是屬於醫院的部門那其中公立院是有6件所以"},{"start":748.055,"end":762.909,"text":"能不能夠 再麻煩請經濟部在這邊多努力包括未來經濟部跟環境部還有衛護部能不能夠針對醫療機構提出一個專案式的方式就是不是跟其他的這些部門做處理而是針對這個醫療部門做單獨的處理不是在這邊"},{"start":766.032,"end":787.1,"text":"OK 跟委員 委員好 跟委員間斷來說明經濟部目前大概有兩個專案在進行 從111年到今年的部分大概已經有補助了78家的一個醫院醫療院所來做這方面的節能每年大概可以節省了大概0.9億度的部分那剛剛委員推詢就是說能不能跟其他部會"},{"start":787.74,"end":805.973,"text":"有個專案的部分來跟醫療院所來做進一步的節能合作的部分那這部分我們跟衛福部相關的部會來一起合作來達到節能的效果好謝謝那我們期待這個會很快有成果給我們做一個參考好謝謝王振興委員發言接下來請張"}]}},{"id":"17372","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17372","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3ea7a173d75aaeaa133fd98fe59c341977cb1d480c4e0b4ea523003b0d0014d98fc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2026-04-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期內政委員會「18歲公民權修法」公聽會","type":"Full","date":"2026-04-22","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2026-04-22T08:37:54+08:00","end_time":"2026-04-22T11:02:00+08:00","duration":8646,"影片長度":"02:24:06","委員發言時間":"08:37:54 - 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年齡被選舉前年齡是否應一併調整或兩者可採差異化年齡規範"},{"start":1406.075,"end":1435.667,"text":"至於其他對於18歲公民權配套制度之建議也有需要一併討論為釐清上述討論提綱之相關意義特辦這個本次公聽會邀請專家學者及相關部會共同討論以其建立更完善的制度我們會詳時記錄各位的高見並列入立法院公報記錄中作為未來審查法案時的參考那我們現在首先介紹這個學者專家出席委員以及政府機關代表"},{"start":1437.796,"end":1466.932,"text":"我們先介紹我們的學者專家那我就依簽到的先後順序開始介紹第一位我們社團法人台灣青年民主協會發起人也是律師我們何慧慈接下來是我們社團法人台灣少年權益與福利促進聯盟秘書長張宥嘉秘書長下一位是輔仁大學法律學院助理教授姚孟昌助理教授"},{"start":1469.205,"end":1495.641,"text":"東吳大學法學東吳大學法律學系教授胡伯彥教授黃帝隱律師順帶法人台灣民主順帶法人台灣青年民主協會理事長楊之隱理事長國立高雄大學政治法律學系教授廖義明教授"},{"start":1499.797,"end":1524.145,"text":"介紹與會部會官員內政部常務次長吳棠安吳政次民政司檢任視察蔡明謙中央選舉委員會選務處處長王小玲法務部檢察官李子綺教育部青年發展署副處長陳奕聰司法院民事廳法官廖佩玲"},{"start":1530.012,"end":1551.899,"text":"今天公立會的程序如下我們先請部會簡短報告後再請學者專家發言一出席簽到順序委員者每位發言時間8分鐘本院委員要發言的請至主席台登記與兩位專家學者發言後安排一位委員發言每位委員發言時間為5分鐘最後再由與會的機關代表回應說明"},{"start":1554.031,"end":1561.023,"text":"發言台正前方的燈號是倒數計時發言時間結束前一分鐘會響鈴一聲發言時間結束則響鈴兩聲我們現在請部會報告我們先請內政部吳常務次長唐安報告"},{"start":1576.502,"end":1604.798,"text":"主席 各位委員 女士先生首先對於各位委員對於內政業務推動的關注與指導表達由衷的感謝今天貴委員會召開18歲公民權修法的公聽會內政部應要列席報告請說明意見如下也進行指教第一 關於選舉權行使年齡各國規定不一多數民主國家例如美國 加拿大 法國及澳大利亞"},{"start":1606.345,"end":1618.747,"text":"和與我鄰近的國家也包括日本韓國等都均以18歲為刑時選舉權年齡第二憲法第130條總統選罷法11條公職選罷法第14條均有規範中華民國的國民年滿20歲有選舉權另外在青年基本法第20條也規定政府應保障年滿18歲之青年有依法刑時選舉罷免創制覆決之權"},{"start":1634.99,"end":1642.219,"text":"並於該法施行之日起兩年內完備相關法治該法在114年12月26日三讀時也一併通過為積極實現18歲公民權之願景立法院應延續進行修憲程序並完備相關法治之附帶決議"},{"start":1654.758,"end":1668.929,"text":"基於調降選舉投票年齡有助於提高年輕世代來參與公共事務盧大院對選舉權年齡下修至18歲具修憲及修法共識內政部原則尊重三"},{"start":1670.514,"end":1676.819,"text":"總統選爆法第20條的規定年滿40歲得申請登記為總統副總統候選人公職選爆法在第24條也規定選舉人年滿23歲得登記為公職人員候選人但直轄市長縣市長候選人需年滿30歲"},{"start":1689.689,"end":1712.956,"text":"鄉鎮市長原住民區長候選人需年滿26歲上開兩項的選罷法的規定之被選舉權最低年齡系依據憲法第45條及第130條考量民選地方行政首長必須具備一定之社會閱歷與經驗故在依其職位之層級職責程度分別歷定有不同年齡的限制"},{"start":1716.411,"end":1724.198,"text":"世界各國被選舉權的年齡規定不一美國、日本、義大利規定需年滿25歲,使能參選民意代表韓國、德國及英國則規定年滿18歲"},{"start":1730.166,"end":1754.328,"text":"對於被選舉權年齡限制通常高於投票年齡且所要角逐的成績職責之重要性的程度越高對其參選年齡限制也越高原始有關被選舉權年齡是否調降及如何調降敬請參酌各方的意見來審慎予以考量以上說明敬請各位委員及各位學者先進指教謝謝"},{"start":1762.128,"end":1791.447,"text":"我們接下來請中選會王小林處長報告主席各位委員各位先生各位女士大家好今天貴委員會召開18歲公民權修法公聽會那本會應邀列席報告以下請提出本會的三點說明第一點是有關世界主要國家對法定投票年齡的規範那國民達一定年齡使賦予選舉權是世界各國的通例"},{"start":1791.967,"end":1806.035,"text":"那各國關於這個法定年齡多介於16歲到21歲之間那其中又以18歲居多那這個大概跟各國的國情制度習慣相關法律規定跟所處的時代環境有關那第二點是我國選舉權與被選舉權年齡是否調降"},{"start":1809.437,"end":1815.541,"text":"那有關中華民國國民年滿20歲有依法選舉之權那年滿23歲有依法被選舉之權這是憲法第130條所規定那總統副總統選罷法以及公職選罷法也都依照上開規定"},{"start":1825.166,"end":1843.837,"text":"規定了選舉人年滿20歲具有選舉權23歲以上分別具有各種公職人員選舉的被選舉權那立法院曾於113年3月25日三讀通過18歲公民權的修憲案並且在111年11月26日辦理投票完略那投票的結果是未通過"},{"start":1844.818,"end":1865.516,"text":"那有關調降選舉權與被選舉權的行使年齡對於促進青年政治參與具有正面的注意且與公民投票法的年齡一致利益良善但是憲法對於選舉權與被選舉權行使年齡的規定就屬保障規定或是限制規定目前學說見解不一那"},{"start":1866.497,"end":1886.334,"text":"就應採取修法或是應透過修憲程序來辦理那各界尚無共識那建議這些都應該先與釐清第三點是對於選務作業的影響如果選舉人年齡經調降為18歲那選舉人的人數將會增加會涉及到投票所設置選舉人名冊編造作業等選務實務作業的配合"},{"start":1888.656,"end":1913.884,"text":"那另外依照公職人员选举罢免法131条规定本法修正施行前已发布的选举公告的选举或已向主管选举委员会提出罢免案仍适用修正前的规定那115年地方公职人员选举定于115年的11月28日举行投票并定于8月20日发布选举公告那并以序名以上报告敬请各位委员及学者专家指教谢谢"},{"start":1920.632,"end":1936.559,"text":"其他單位的報告請自行參閱並刊登公報我們補充介紹與會的學者專家我們的社團法人台灣EDU教育協會理事長蔡啟業國立台北大學三峽校區學生會會長陳育仁"},{"start":1944.056,"end":1953.546,"text":"好接下來我們請專家學者發言那剛剛補充再重複一點每位八分鐘那會在結束前一分鐘響鈴那第一位我們請何衛慈顧問發言"},{"start":1965.083,"end":1983.141,"text":"主席各位委員行政機關代表民間團體夥伴學者先進大家好我是台灣青年民主協會的顧問何偉慈律師那今天的這個主題大概是從我2015年參與這個台少盟的18歲公民權的倡議當時我還是一位高中生那十多年過去"},{"start":1983.962,"end":2009.59,"text":"我們在倡議這條路上經歷了很多的事情包含2018年立法院公民投票法下修公民投票年齡到18歲2020年下修民法成年年齡到18歲那2022年也感謝朝野的共識讓我們的修憲案可以在立法院通過很可惜雖然最後人民覆決的時候同意票大於不同意票但可惜離修憲門檻還是有一段的差距那去年"},{"start":2010.771,"end":2030.053,"text":"2025年立法院也通過青年基本法18歲公民權的條文必須要在兩年內國家應該要完備法治賦予18歲公民權18歲的人可以有投票的權利那就產生今天公聽會的很重要的一個問題就是憲法的130條解釋的問題到底能不能不修憲法只修選罷法"},{"start":2031.895,"end":2049.215,"text":"來達成18歲公民權那我們先看看憲法第130條這個條文上面的解釋中華民國國民年滿20歲者有依法選舉之權那解釋的路徑現在學界的討論社會的討論主要兩種一種認為是限制說認為憲法的規定是年滿20歲的人"},{"start":2050.336,"end":2068.979,"text":"才可以有這個選舉權那為什麼會有解釋的空間因為如果採限制說的話如果今天條文是寫未滿20歲不得享有選舉權或滿20歲使享有選舉權那就沒有任何的解釋的空間必須採限制說但我們的條文的規定的模式是年滿20歲那就有"},{"start":2070.461,"end":2095.694,"text":"另外一種解釋的可能就是說因為憲法是對於人民權利最低最基本最底線的一個保障那憲法的要求是要求立法者一定要給予年滿20歲以上的這個國民要有選舉的權利所以今天如果立法院要上修投票年齡到21歲22歲那顯然會是違憲的但如果要下修投票年齡到18歲甚至更低那有可能"},{"start":2096.554,"end":2114.815,"text":"這是不是一個立法形成的自由很多學者會認為說如果給人民更多的權利應該要從寬解釋那如果今天是限制人民權利的話那是可以從嚴解釋那過去可能會認為說裁保障說認為立法院可以修法不修憲的"},{"start":2116.756,"end":2137.163,"text":"會認為說是少數的學者這樣主張但其實並不是因為在過去更精確來講並不是少數學者有這樣的主張而是過去是沒有太多的學者在討論這個議題那自從2022年修法通過之後我們有整理有撰文或是公開表態發言的這個學者專家才保障說認為修法"},{"start":2138.263,"end":2165.213,"text":"就可以達成18歲公民權的學者專家其實是佔了絕大多數那這個部分也請大院可以參考那財保障說的學者很重要的一個立論基礎特別是在2011年廖元豪老師政大的廖元豪老師就提出這樣的一個論述的路徑就可以請大家思考說大家會認為現在9年國民義務教育或12年國教是一個違憲的教育政策嗎"},{"start":2166.053,"end":2189.189,"text":"那想當然而為什麼會有這樣的提問是因為在我們憲法的160條的第一項裡面其實就有寫到6歲到12歲是一律受基本教育那免納學費那國家如果今天因為政策上面的調整因為預算上面的分配要給更多的國民受到基本教育或是更多的國民來免納學費這不應該是憲法所禁止的一件事情"},{"start":2192.257,"end":2207.834,"text":"從這樣的一個解釋的路徑我們也可以從保障說的這個立場來去看說是可以透過立法來去給人民更多的權利並不應該是憲法或是制憲者當初所要禁止的那接著我們來看歷史解釋因為我們也有去考據一些當時修憲"},{"start":2209.675,"end":2228.271,"text":"當時在憲法制定的時候 究竟這個定在20歲的原因是什麼那我們看了一些制憲的史料 包含當時參與制憲的這個學者專家他們在討論這個20歲的門檻的時候 他其實是因為當時的民法成年年齡是定在20歲 所以"},{"start":2230.589,"end":2253.207,"text":"他們希望把選舉權的年齡跟民法成年年齡綁定認為民法有成年有行為能力的國民在憲法上也應該要保障或是賦予他這個投票權所以現在民法成年年齡既然已經下修到18歲那立法院下修投票年齡到18歲就更具有這個法律上跟憲法上的這個正當性"},{"start":2254.108,"end":2266.263,"text":"那看完這個學者的說法以及這個歷史的解釋那也跟大家分享在法院以及司法實務方面的見解因為剛好在去年就有一位剛滿18歲的青年他認為"},{"start":2270.007,"end":2286.824,"text":"18歲應該要有選舉權所以他去主動的去向選委會申請他希望列入這個投票人的名冊那選委會當然是依照因為選罷法的年齡還是定在20歲所以把他的這個申請駁回那這個青年他有向北高行"},{"start":2287.685,"end":2305.432,"text":"提出這個假處分的申請那雖然最後北高行還是駁回了這個申請但是在裁定的理由裡面其實是寫得非常有趣的他認為在選舉權、罷免權是具有雙重的特性是人民基本權利的保障也是民主憲政體制下的這個制度那要"},{"start":2306.488,"end":2325.917,"text":"充實這個選舉罷免權對於人民的保障啊那必須在立法者在憲法所設定的框架下那這邊憲法所設定的框架在法院的裁定裡面是只有寫到憲法第129條這個普通平等直接無盡民原則並沒有把130條放在他說這是一個憲法的框架下面去討論所以"},{"start":2327.378,"end":2347.155,"text":"其實只要遵守憲法的誡命在這個裁定裡面也有理由裡面也提到說立法者對於選舉制度的形成特別是他把年齡放進去立法者對於選舉制度形成的一環包含投票日投票地點投票方法這些只要在符合憲法的框架下都應該可以透過立法來完成"},{"start":2348.646,"end":2368.025,"text":"那在裁定駁回的最主要的一個理由啦他這邊也有提到說我國選舉制度到底要不要給未滿20歲的國民心事投票權法官是並沒有直接丟憲法的條文說不行給20歲以下的人有投票權他這邊提到說如果於法律沒有修正之前"},{"start":2368.726,"end":2393.08,"text":"那不適合由司法者來做這樣的一個決定所以換句話說在這個裁定裡面行政法院似乎肯認在選舉年齡裡面享有一定程度的立法行程自由然後可否允許未滿20歲國民行使投票權這個部分是可以透過法律來修正來處理的那可能很多人會擔心說會不會有違憲或是有"},{"start":2393.76,"end":2415.14,"text":"被大法官宣告違憲的這個可能那我們可以想想看幾個不同的路徑包含如果是今天是要從人民申請必須要有人民的權利受侵害但我們殊難想像讓更多的人民有投票權會有誰的權利受到侵害所以以人民申請這條路應該是不會有發生的這樣的一個情況那接著是"},{"start":2415.74,"end":2437.222,"text":"如果是由立法委員申請那依照我們過去的事件實務是必須要沒有積極行使沒有投下贊成票的立委才有這個申請的事格對那這是立法委員申請的部分那如果機關行政機關包含行政院或中選會申請的部分那我們也會去思考說如果今天立法院真的三讀通過了這個選罷法的修正案那行政部門是"},{"start":2437.882,"end":2465.578,"text":"有必要去做這樣一個釋憲的申請我自己是很困惑也覺得應該要斟酌的一個部分啦包含政治上面的評估或是社會輿論上面的評估我認為說行政部門應該也是不會去走這樣一個申請的路徑那我這邊支持18歲到20歲立法院透過下修公職人員及總統副總統選罷法讓18到20歲的青年是可以投票來平衡世代之聲跟上國際腳步達成18歲公民權的最後一里路謝謝大家"},{"start":2473.697,"end":2474.963,"text":"我們下一位請張宥嘉秘書長發言"},{"start":2496.762,"end":2522.722,"text":"各位委員各位與會的先進跟各位夥伴大家好今天我站在這裡想要先問大家一個非常核心的問題也是一個非常基礎的問題就是為何我們國家18歲的青少年在社會上必須負起各種義務跟責任但是我們的國家確實是不願意給予他們完整的權利這個問題我想台灣民主發展至今是無可迴避的挑戰"},{"start":2524.554,"end":2545.991,"text":"我們首先看到一個很清楚的事實全球有95%的國家已經保障了18歲公民權那我們看到台灣其實反而成為全球僅剩約5%少數的那一群人這代表什麼這件事情其實不是一個爭議是一個國際共識那甚至現在世界的討論"},{"start":2547.712,"end":2560.572,"text":"已經不是在18歲了而是是不是要下修到16歲那台灣還停留在一個很尷尬的位置就是說我們連18歲都還沒有做到那這其實不是一個制度落後是一個民主參與的時代落差"},{"start":2565.894,"end":2582.736,"text":"我們常常會說一件事情就是說18歲是不是還不夠成熟那其實我們可以看到很多的研究其實已經指出了18歲這件事情其實他們可以做了非常非常多的事情"},{"start":2584.042,"end":2606.16,"text":"那我們就是用來科學實證來回答那根據歐美其實很多的研究發現其實我們可以看2011年他的研究指出16到17歲的公民素養已經到達了成年人的水準那設定18歲的門檻本身就缺乏科學的基礎那2023年這一個學者的研究也進一步指出16到17歲的選民"},{"start":2608.462,"end":2626.442,"text":"他們的政治選擇品質與成年人相當他們投票完全符合自身的政策偏好並不是盲目的投票那美國的研究指出認為就是年輕的選民並非盲從父母的意志而是可以獨立展現出穩定的政治人頭"},{"start":2627.463,"end":2645.704,"text":"更有趣的事情就是告訴我們就是權力賦予的本身就會促進政治的參與在2024年這一篇的研究指出當青少年被賦予投票權之後他們會主動搜尋資訊他們也會增加政治的討論進而提升公民自我的效能感"},{"start":2646.565,"end":2657.878,"text":"那2022年也有研究指出相較已經出社會環境變動大的成年初期16到18歲青少年擁有穩定的生活與學校環境這反而有助於"},{"start":2659.096,"end":2686.247,"text":"提高他們的投票率我們台灣社會現在正在高齡化現行的投票制度不可避免的會讓政策比較偏向年齡高的選民只有下修投票年齡把青年真正在乎的教育就業薪資等社會議題納入核心我們的公共決策才能夠真正的有世代的代表性民主是在建立平等權利的上面"},{"start":2687.367,"end":2708.86,"text":"我想說的是如果我們不會因為某些成年人不排斥某些成年人的投票那我們排除具備同樣決策品質的青少年就完全失去正當性如果我們也不會因為某些成年人員的資訊不足就剝奪他的投票權那為什麼我們要用同樣的理由來去排除18歲呢對不起"},{"start":2715.347,"end":2729.148,"text":"過去我們看見很多台灣現行的一些制度其實台灣已經在進步很多了2017年我們下修了公投的年齡2023年民法成年年齡正式下修"},{"start":2729.81,"end":2756.448,"text":"人民團體發起人的年齡也調整就在去年我們也通過了青年基本法明文賦予18歲公民權的公民選舉罷免創制與複決權這聽起來好像很棒很美好可是事實上相關的法治根本還沒有完備我們青年的參政權上在選舉跟罷免權上仍被打了一個非常大的叉叉"},{"start":2757.448,"end":2763.016,"text":"這成為我們在18歲公民權最後也最關鍵的一塊冰土是未完成的"},{"start":2765.961,"end":2791.487,"text":"現行的制度允許18歲的青年行使創制複決權甚至擔任民法完全的責任卻不給他們選舉跟罷免的權利選舉罷免創制複決是一體的討論缺一不可若未來修法只修半套讓他們在選舉卻沒有辦法罷免這不是另外一個很矛盾的問題嗎所以我們另外要再從賠例來看"},{"start":2794.169,"end":2801.266,"text":"這件事情就是現行的兒少權法第十條也保障了兒少代表在政府委員裡面的比例"},{"start":2802.591,"end":2831.206,"text":"高中 高級中學法在53條裡面也明定要輔導學生成立由選舉產生的學生會這代表什麼政府已經認可在體制下給予18歲以下的兒童及少年參與公共事務的賠利途徑既然18歲以下有賠利的管道20歲以上有完整的投票權那為什麼要讓18到20歲這個區間的青年的政策聲音出現了一個空白期呢"},{"start":2833.379,"end":2855.802,"text":"好我們現在來看另外一個就是我們鄰近的韓國他們在2019年的時候在投票年齡已經降到18歲那首場大選18歲投票率高達67.4%比韓國總平均的投票還高他們更在2021年將參選年齡也降到了18歲"},{"start":2858.427,"end":2878.28,"text":"那結果他們在2022年的地方選舉當中青年當選的大幅度成長了1.7倍甚至出現了18、19歲的候選人這個改變迫使政黨必須要導入一些青年的保障制度讓真正的青年從單純的選民轉變為行動者那我們其實也可以看到的是英國他在2006的選舉"},{"start":2883.177,"end":2898.825,"text":"行政法裡面就將參選年齡降至18歲消除投票與參與的年齡落差強化制度的一致性那瑞士的蘇黎一市州甚至有提過投票16歲參選維持18歲的權力脫鉤設計這些都是我們台灣可以去漸進的漸進式民主充全的模式"},{"start":2906.226,"end":2931.869,"text":"那連聯合國秘書長也有呼籲就是不要只把年輕人當作選民要更看做的是合作的夥伴更需要的是能夠一起在合作那聯合國的CRC委員在第20號意見書裡面也有清楚的在明國家應該要擴大民主的空間包括降低投票年齡"},{"start":2933.32,"end":2952.215,"text":"各位委員總結的以上我們的呼籲其實是非常的清楚的從現行的法規充全而上的角度我們早就應該要填補這一段政策的空白還給18歲青少年完整的公民權讓他們在台灣這塊土地上已經承擔夠多的義務跟責任國家沒有理由繼續剝奪他們應該要有的權利"},{"start":2955.057,"end":2971.869,"text":"當現在世界都在闊步向前行當其他國家都在討論18歲降職16歲的今天台灣真的沒有時間再猶豫跟糾結了我們不能只要求金聖龍娘要愛國要青年承擔責任卻在行使民主權利這一塊把他們拒之門外"},{"start":2973.09,"end":2984.914,"text":"請各位委員要支持競速完成修法把最後一塊的紅色XX拼圖補齊讓台灣真正過上國際的腳步還給18歲青少年完整的公民權 謝謝大家好 我們下一位請姚孟昌教授"},{"start":3005.305,"end":3021.005,"text":"主席與會的先進專家學者以及我們的記者朋友今天非常榮幸能夠接受內政委員會的邀請來參加今天的公聽會那要先向委員召集今天的公聽會意義重大那我想"},{"start":3021.966,"end":3043.596,"text":"委員會先行主義以及委員會啊中心主義這是立法院非常非常好的傳統特別邀請學者專家呢到委員會呢周知眾議然後一起啊提供啊意見來充分討論他讓啊立法院的意識的確能夠回應到憲法第六十三條強調的"},{"start":3046.121,"end":3065.074,"text":"必須要有義才能夠有學而且這個義是充分討論所以我非常非常謝謝廖委員今天不辭辛勞來舉辦今天的會議那今天的公聽會讓我回想在4年前我也參加過類似議題的討論那是在2022年1月的"},{"start":3070.376,"end":3089.353,"text":"这个修宪委员会的公听会那这个议题呢当时已经讨论过那我们当时所有参加的学者包含立法院的各党都有一致的共识也就公民权行使的年龄必须下修来符合国际的一个趋势"},{"start":3090.478,"end":3118.538,"text":"而当时的结论是考虑到宪法明文的规定因此除非透过修宪的方式没有办法达成我们让公民权行使年龄特别是选举权跟被选举权的部分可以有一些变动今天我们讨论选罢法的一个前提是如果宪法给我们一定的空间的确我们在选罢法做修订这是应该做的事情"},{"start":3119.847,"end":3130.175,"text":"那今天涉及到的选罢法的规定了我就暂时略过我最主要是着重在宪法第130条的规定"},{"start":3131.075,"end":3158.537,"text":"中华民国国民年满20岁者有依法选举之权除本宪法及法律别有规定者外年满23岁者有依法被选举之权我想这是今天我们讨论的重点那在2022年的修宪案在复决的时候同意票只有564万票不同意票501万票那两者都没有达到通过门槛961万票"},{"start":3161.857,"end":3174.127,"text":"所以呢當時的修憲呢功虧一簣這是非常非常可惜所以我在修憲委員會當時的公聽會的時候我有提出幾點了也就是說如果我們要"},{"start":3175.487,"end":3195.913,"text":"让公民权下修能够成为全民的共识可能大院必须要在相关的说明以及行政院在相关的说明上面都要一起协力我想这个努力今天还是要继续进行世界主要国家对于法定投票年龄"},{"start":3198.127,"end":3222.185,"text":"剛剛兩位先進都已經提到過大概都已經在16歲左右的確我們的選舉年齡定在20歲是不符時代潮流而這個規定是在80年前制定的憲法明文規定的當年這樣的規定考慮到第一個它跟我們對成年的概念是一致的"},{"start":3223.206,"end":3238.552,"text":"那如今就像刚刚两位先进有提到民法的成年年龄已经下修到18岁而且18岁的青年要负担包含了刑事责任以及各项的法律义务所以我想我非常同意刚刚两位先进的发言"},{"start":3239.452,"end":3267.262,"text":"适时调降选举权的年龄这是必要的这不只是权力义务对等的原则这也是要呼应年轻世代他们要参政的一个诉求而且当公投法的投票年龄已经下降的时候为什么选罢法没有办法跟公投法一起修改我想关键就在于130条宪法的规定这个规定让选举年龄"},{"start":3268.089,"end":3294.39,"text":"已經明定他變成是憲法保留事項這跟民法刑法公投法不一樣那剛剛先進有提到其他國家為什麼可以做這樣的一個變動因為其他國家的選舉年齡並不是規定在憲法他是規定在法律那即使是規定在憲法他們也沒有像台灣有這麼高的一個修憲的門檻所以他們很容易就"},{"start":3295.066,"end":3323.253,"text":"在全民有一定的共識的情況之下就修過那我們的問題是我們有共識卻很難去變動憲法的規定那這個問題在什麼地方就是在2005年那次修憲把那門檻定的那麼高那限制的不只是公民權下修的議題包含我們的政府組織還有包含我們的很多的規定都沒有辦法與時俱進這是我覺得非常遺憾的地方"},{"start":3324.264,"end":3350.176,"text":"因此我在2022年的修憲委員會公聽會的時候我已經提出來也就大院不只是應該要思考公民權下修的問題而已同時也要把修憲門檻的部分也要一併的考慮把這個問題訴諸全民我們一起思考一起來面對那在我的一個發言裡面我回應"},{"start":3352,"end":3372.677,"text":"我們委員會的提綱他問說如果把選舉的年齡透過法律下修會不會發生違憲的問題我認為非常有可能不管是透過立法者原意不管透過立法解釋都會得出這個結論而我強調的是什麼"},{"start":3376.309,"end":3400.536,"text":"這是在過去80年還有包含大院在2022年的修憲委員會的時候我們其實都非常非常清楚要去變動這個選舉權的年齡只能夠透過修憲的方式才進行而那個時候是朝野各黨一致的共識那如果我們當時對於憲法的理解是這樣那今天的變動"},{"start":3402.677,"end":3419.489,"text":"我想連大法官大概都會問一下就是說那請問大院你們解釋憲法的根據是什麼或你們在解釋這個選罷法呢在面對到憲法明文規定的時候你們的態度又是如何所以我個人的認為18歲公民權的這個"},{"start":3424.35,"end":3440.061,"text":"訴求呢還是應該要透過修憲來進行那當然有朋友也提到啊像公投呢都已經下修那為什麼我們還拘泥於這個選舉權因為憲法第17條提到人民的參政權有選舉罷免創制覆決"},{"start":3441.994,"end":3469.482,"text":"可是在130條特別用明定選舉權行使的年齡那這也如同大院過去解釋這是對於行使權能的一種年齡限制選舉權並不是毫無限制所以包含居住的限制各式各樣的條件所以這個限制既然它是憲法明定我們還是要尊重最後我提另外一個配套措施也就是說我們在這個"},{"start":3472.748,"end":3482.675,"text":"宪法复决的时候其实也发生了一个问题谁可以参与宪法复决的投票也是20岁因为呢在我们征修条的规定里面啊"},{"start":3484.074,"end":3508.106,"text":"這個可以參與憲法附決的投票是以有選舉權人為限所以要修改的話連同徵求條文的第一條可能也都要一併的修訂所以我最後呼籲應該要思考像大院委員林益錦委員跟吳佩儀委員他們提出的修憲案應該在這個方面著力才會比較允當以上"},{"start":3516.421,"end":3518.94,"text":"好 我們下一位請胡博焱教授發言"},{"start":3526.771,"end":3554.384,"text":"主席 市長 以及在座各位先進 各位女士先生 各位朋友大家早安 大家好 我是動物大學胡柏彥榮幸有這個機會來針對這個議題來發表自己的一點意見但18歲公民權這件事情其實是我想我們已經討論過很久的事情然後呢 有很多 我今天有很多年輕朋友其實可能也會來跟大家訴說說其實18歲公民權的重要性但是作為一個公法老師 其實好像"},{"start":3555.885,"end":3561.49,"text":"並不是要來面對這個議題我們要來面對一件事情是我們在憲法130條裡面寫的說我們的選舉權是20歲被選舉權是23歲的問題這怎麼解決其實我們憲法剛剛其實姚老師有說這80年前1947年民國36年訂的那如果以當初的時間來看的話這時間會不會"},{"start":3574.534,"end":3589.886,"text":"比較晚其實這時間是合理的為什麼因為美國的憲法第26修正案呢是規定是18歲但是第26修正案是哪一年訂的1971年訂的那此前的第14修正案就是現在川普很討厭那個第14修正案呢是1868年訂的1868年是訂在哪裡就訂在21歲啊"},{"start":3593.789,"end":3601.353,"text":"英國定在哪裡?英國1918年定的時候是定在哪裡?定在21歲英國1918年有普選權的時候是21歲女性是31歲後來再統一調降成21歲到了1969年的時候他才把統一調降為18歲所以如果從1947年來看的話20歲這個年齡不是一個太低的"},{"start":3614.941,"end":3630.189,"text":"不是一個太高的年齡其實是符合當初的一個條件的狀況之下但是如果我們現在來看呢很顯然基本上來講這個年齡其實確實在很多國家都是調降的那這是一個比較高的年齡那如果我們今天另外一個議題有關被選舉權這件事情美國沒有調"},{"start":3634.511,"end":3657.4,"text":"美國在26修正案當中調整的是選舉權被選舉權還是留在什麼憲法本文裡面就剛剛其實次長有報告過其實是25歲30歲眾議員參議員還有總統其實不一樣的時間點那當然我們其實現在目前在憲法裡面的23歲但是我們到選罷法以及總統選罷法當中其實在歲數裡面其實也有另外在做比較高的規定這個可以講"},{"start":3658.8,"end":3684.634,"text":"那我們現在問題怎麼處理130條的問題剛剛其實何律師有講到說其實它有可能可以被解釋成是一個上限或者是一個說法也就是說我們還是有可能在法律上面去把它往下調這件事情我一直以為這個解釋方式當中是一個很多數的解釋方式其實剛剛何律師也有提到但是我查了一下我的ChubbGT跟我的Jim你問一下說有誰主張這件事情他都跳出來一個人叫做廖元豪"},{"start":3686.243,"end":3708.091,"text":"然後在我經過逼問之下呢後來他勉強跳出來一個人叫李彥祖其實我也主張這件事情但是他一直都沒有跟人家講說我主張這件事情我一直以為我是多數見解很顯然其實不是 為什麼因為我們其實內政部在民國一百年3月18號有舉行一個座談會在當初黃司長舉行下參加者有江大樹 黃景堂 蕭文森 陳艾爾等八位老師"},{"start":3708.951,"end":3735.931,"text":"那其實這個結果當中而言 基本上廖炎豪老師其實在後來其實在退上有講 全場其實只有他只有他採這個意見 基本上所有人都說要修憲裡面來講 楊泰順教授說要修憲 王業力老師說他其實修憲過程當中而言就有提到說要降低年齡 只是都沒有過 也就是說當初修憲的 過去的修憲確實是有人提到 也就是沒有過黃警長老師說不行的話 我們就視線看看好了 但是這說法"},{"start":3736.631,"end":3761.79,"text":"蕭文森老師不見了 蕭文森老師說如果丟給他 基本上是霸凌大法官因為他沒有想過說他之後會被提名大法官 不然他就不會這樣講了那江大樹老師其實跟陳艾爾老師都採取 劉建宏老師都採取相同的見解因為陳艾爾老師就為了老師是說 其實自憲史裡面沒有提到這樣子自憲史確實就跟剛剛何俊仕的時候講的因為是扒著一件事 有可能就是扒著當初陳念玲的這件事情"},{"start":3762.39,"end":3785.137,"text":"那確實這就是一個問題所以這個說法就變成但是我沒有要改變見解因為我隨便改變見解這時候大家會說我改變見解是怎麼樣我還是認為從歷史解釋跟文藝解釋某些方面來講這是一個出發點可以去討論這件事情但是在討論這件事情我們要面對一件事情如果我們修法可以過的話那我們上次幹嘛提修憲案"},{"start":3786.581,"end":3805.531,"text":"我們這一屆的立法委員拿出來說我們要修法但是我們上一屆的立法委員說我們就提一個修憲案實際上來講當初修憲公聽會我們也來參加不然我是會主張說不要單獨提這個案去修憲因為一定不會過為什麼一定不會過因為他沒有辦法支撐讓人民可以去投那個修憲案的那個什麼的動力"},{"start":3808.373,"end":3836.433,"text":"而當初的修憲案是當初立法院各黨都同意造成的結果就會變成國民黨民進黨等於被民眾打臉你知道嗎我們好不容易把一個修憲案你知道修憲要出立法院是一件很困難的事情通過之後有共識結果人民沒有共識這個代表一件事情這代表是立法院的各黨派是被打臉了那今天其實主席在這你比較幸運的是你的選區裡面還有六成的人其實是可以接受的"},{"start":3837.72,"end":3837.74,"text":"金門"},{"start":3839.181,"end":3866.911,"text":"有68%的人反對也就是說我們在當初呢差距300萬過關但是實際上來講還有500萬的人是反對這件事情所以這裡最大的困難就是說如果我們認為修法可以通過的話那為什麼上次提修憲案要去提修憲案這件事情是當初的立法委員沒有想清楚還是立法委員就覺得說其實應該要提修憲案才通過而提完被人家否決的結果就是說基本上來講"},{"start":3868.26,"end":3881.941,"text":"我們要面對一件事情這個修憲案在上次被否決被否決之後然後我們現在說我們回來提修法那我們怎麼跟當初否決的人民交代說其實修法就可以了"},{"start":3883.103,"end":3909.283,"text":"如果修法就可以上次就應該跟他講喔所以如果用一個相同的道理來講如果我們行政部門呢覺得有一個東西大家都跟他主張說其實修法規命令就可以解決問題行政部門呢就很gay掰的說不行我覺得這個很慎重我們來修一個法律結果提到立法院的時候立法院就要reject跳然後行政機關回去說我們回去把法規命令修一修就好了我不知道這樣立法院可不可以接受"},{"start":3910.023,"end":3931.456,"text":"如果這樣可以接受的話同樣的我想人民也應該可以接受這件事情但是如果立法院覺得行政機關這件事情其實是沒有尊重到立法院的意向的話同樣的我們當我們放棄了原來已修憲的路徑當中來解決這問題回來用法律案解決這問題的時候我們一樣要回應跟人民講說"},{"start":3932.757,"end":3953.736,"text":"其實法律就可以解決這件事情不用讓你們同意而這個最困難就是如果我們要選擇的時候我們就要選擇到底而上次呢基本上來講我們既然選擇以修憲的方式來解決這樣的問題的時候我們最終還是必須要面對其實還是要以修憲解決問題雖然我們有一個李彥祖老師其實有說過"},{"start":3954.837,"end":3971.613,"text":"過去超過兩年之後基本上來講我們是可以重新再做提案那原來公投法確實是這樣規定但是呢公投法這樣的設計呢並不是說你這個過了之後叫你再去提一個法律案叫你過的時候是說我們還是可以再提其他公投案這件事情"},{"start":3972.333,"end":3996.302,"text":"所以基於我這樣認為是說雖然傳統上面來講我覺得其實本來應該單純透過修法來解決就可以了但是既然我們在上次選擇了以修憲的路徑來解決這個問題的時候我們不能在上次修憲沒有過的時候然後呢再來選擇以修法的方式來解決這個問題這樣的話會漠視這五百多萬反對這件事情的民意以上 謝謝"},{"start":4003.783,"end":4005.365,"text":"好 我們下一位請黃定穎律師發言"},{"start":4020.345,"end":4042.125,"text":"首席各位與會先進媒體朋友對於這一個18歲公民權的議案當然本質問題跟憲法修憲有關那因為憲法130條的命運規定中華民國國民年滿20歲才依法有選舉之權那是法律的憲法的規定那我也贊同剛才博焱老師所講的說上次提的修憲"},{"start":4044.566,"end":4057.311,"text":"卻沒有過之後再提修法會有本質上問題所以根源問題確實是修憲但是我不認為說提案修法會當然抵觸憲法而且提案修選罷法來降低年齡門檻我認為它有正當性"},{"start":4058.812,"end":4082.509,"text":"那我看的是這次提案的不分朝野都有這樣的共識其實跟上次在提出要憲法覆決要立法院四分之三這麼高的門檻都過得出去所以現在提案去修18歲公民權用選罷法的方式去修法那他確實跟當時的立法院的四分之三修憲門檻的朝野的共識應該是相當的那上次在"},{"start":4083.77,"end":4111.428,"text":"憲法修憲的這個覆決案在2022年這一次是很可惜是說它只有564萬張票那沒有突破它的門檻因為我們在修憲門檻上面有雙高門檻這在世界上大概是非常罕見的超穩固憲法也就是說立法院要四分之三公民要一半所以961萬是沒有達到的但是它有564萬如果我們把它拉回到目前現階段的"},{"start":4112.068,"end":4131.665,"text":"用公投的思考來看如果對於立法原則之創製都認為18歲公民權把它思考成立法原則之創製的話就是說我們立法原則上面應該要有18歲公民權如果回歸到我目前的公投法我們500萬票就過關了所以564萬其實如果用公投的方式處理"},{"start":4132.145,"end":4158.352,"text":"他其實是符合民意的趨向也就是民意多數民意在公投的適度之下還是認為18歲公民權是符合多數民意的立法原則的創止那在第二個部分正當性在於我認為在憲法的平等原則我們在談體系正義體系正義的概念是什麼在德國聯邦憲法法院他的簡單的講就是立法者要自我拘束不能說我今天立法都隨意的去做立法他有一個"},{"start":4159.892,"end":4183.11,"text":"一罐的體系所以這樣的立法原則之拘束在我們112年立法院通過了民法修為成年人是18歲那刑法本來就規定成年人是18歲同樣都是18歲我們在立法部門認為18歲的人年輕人就給他認為說他應該要負起完全的行為能力還有完全的責任能力他是一個"},{"start":4184.13,"end":4211.924,"text":"有一個正常的識別的能力有辦法去判斷意識他是完全要對自己負責的在民事責任上面刑事責任上面都一樣所以我們國家在上面認為說18歲的人他就知道如果他犯罪了他就明知道他是違法的行為他是犯罪的行為他就要被判刑他就要如果說在民事上面有相關的侵權責任他也要負起完全的責任所以我們立法部門的思考是說18歲的人是完全的行為能力人要負完全的責任能力"},{"start":4212.304,"end":4232.936,"text":"那同時我們在公投法上面也設計說他對於你看我們公投法明文規定18歲的人他是可以對於國家重大政策立法原則進行創制覆決這是我們公投法上面對於一個18歲的人的思考是他可以完全判斷這個國家的政策他可以完全判斷這個立法原則是不是要做創制跟覆決"},{"start":4233.576,"end":4259.102,"text":"所以我們在立法部門上面對於18歲的人刑事責任也好民事責任也好乃至於公投法對他科語的說他對於國家重大政策的創制覆決或者是立法原則的創制覆決都有這樣的判斷的能力那在體系正義的思考是立法原則的這個體系上面的思考是他要自我拘束啊所以對他用選罷法給他18歲的投票權當然是符合我認為"},{"start":4259.903,"end":4277.443,"text":"符合體系正義也就是說我們立法部門對於自我拘束是思考是民事責任刑事責任公投法上面重大政策的創制覆決立法原則創制覆決都是18歲那給他投票權18歲這個草野上面的立委的提案我認為是符合體系正義的"},{"start":4278.044,"end":4305.941,"text":"另外一個是世代正義的問題世代正義的問題是我們目前是超高齡的這個社會那所以在18歲公民權運動超過20年以來這個目前的超高齡社會如果以世代的整體來講年輕世代要撫養整個國家的這種撫養的責任他的投票權的比例在中高齡相形之下他比較少他會形成公共政策資源分配的不當傾斜"},{"start":4306.841,"end":4333.888,"text":"所以如果從世代正義角度這個思考來落實的話18歲公民權透過選罷法的方式去做修正是符合世代正義價值也就是說在整體的超高齡老人中高齡老人化的這樣的社會中高齡化的社會裡面讓年輕世代他要在分配相關的政策資源的時候不會有不當傾斜所以降低為18歲的公民權其實是符合世代正義的思考"},{"start":4334.528,"end":4356.415,"text":"另外一個是說我認為修憲它不當然違憲是因為如果一個比較我認為是進步的立法如果是進步的立法哪怕真的送到大法官那邊去他也未必當然認為說我相應的去解釋憲法第130條20歲就是相應的20歲如果更加進步的思考是說大法官未必會有這樣的思考認為這樣就是違憲"},{"start":4358.155,"end":4377.676,"text":"那我們看歐美國家在18歲公民權推動也接近半個世紀亞洲國家包括日本在2016年也修法讓18歲有這樣的一個投票的權利韓國也是一樣所以我們台灣目前現階段的因為憲法的明文規定把它僵化的變成20歲才能有投票權"},{"start":4378.437,"end":4392.508,"text":"這件事情其實在國際上來看其實是不是那麼的進步的一個法律那這也凸顯的是說我們現在超高門檻的修憲其實也沒辦法對應上國際的潮流那這個是根源的問題所以回過頭來看是說"},{"start":4394.529,"end":4417.572,"text":"現階段因為朝野都有提案立法委員都有提案我們在憲法訴訟法第49條的規定是說要現有總額的立法委員的四分之一提案才會去假設今天修過了選罷法的18歲的投票權那也要有四分之一的立委當時是反對也就是現在反對那我看起來朝野都是支持的就是說從提案這次的修選罷法"},{"start":4418.553,"end":4447.047,"text":"不論哪一個政黨都有提案這樣的一個支持那支持修選罷法的18歲公民權如果他沒有四分之一以上的人反對他就不會有這樣的一個啟動的機制那我認為行政部門也未必會有這樣的思考我大概看了一下中選會的資料中選會的資料有一個稍微保留的狀態是說他說這個會有造冊上的困難可是我們在公投法都已經公投過了造冊上沒有困難公投法是18歲就可以公投了"},{"start":4447.307,"end":4465.228,"text":"所以當時公投那麼多次了18歲是沒有問題的所以技術上的問題我認為不嚴重當然根源的問題當然還是憲法130條如果能夠修憲當然是修憲是根源解決問題但是如果要通過修法的方式我認為他是有正當性的而且不一定抵觸憲法謝謝"},{"start":4472.925,"end":4499.987,"text":"我們補充介紹一下與會的學者專家我們國立台北大學公共行政記憶政策學系助理教授陳耀祥助理教授歡迎 歡迎回來我們國立政治大學學生會會長陳玉靜台灣青年思潮協會發起人何潔恩台灣新文化青年協會共同發起人陳廷楚"},{"start":4503.308,"end":4504.214,"text":"我們下一位請楊姿穎理事長發言"},{"start":4516.451,"end":4543.617,"text":"主席委員以及各位委員會 先敬請大家好我是台灣青年民主協會理事長楊姿穎那我想先從一個已經非常清楚的事實開始那在青年基本法通過的過程中呢朝野主要 三個主要政黨都已經表達了對18歲公民權的支持這代表18歲公民權它不只是某一個政黨的主張或是某一方的主張而是立法院形成的跨黨派共識那"},{"start":4544.717,"end":4559.717,"text":"今天的這場公聽會呢其實關鍵不在於要不要做而是在於我們要如何把這個已經成為共識轉化為一個穩定而且可以實行的規定制度那另外我們也想要先回應一下剛剛前面"},{"start":4560.638,"end":4582.694,"text":"先進提到的就是過去的討論親民協當時在遊說各黨立委的時候呢2022年修憲委員會的討論委員們是認為先修憲試試看對於說法也沒有進一步的討論因為我們在2022做出了史上第一次的修憲公投但我們都知道修憲的門檻有多高因而沒有通過也在我們公民團體的預料內"},{"start":4584.155,"end":4601.139,"text":"到2025年青年基本法的討論過程中三黨都明確表示支持直接收法不修憲實現18歲公民權因此親民社的立場是非常的清楚我們全力支持透過修正總統副總統選舉罷免法以及公職人員選舉罷免法兩部法規來實現18歲公民權的修正那因為這件事情本質上是全力以及"},{"start":4610.081,"end":4634.231,"text":"義務的對齊今年的18歲青年已經是領法上完全的行為能力人那也必須承擔完整的刑事責任以及各項法律的義務但在政治上卻仍然被排除在外當一個人被要求對社會負責卻沒有要參與社會不能參與社會決定的方向權利這樣的制度本身就是不對等的那從國際比較來看剛剛佑大姐有提到說18歲公民"},{"start":4638.413,"end":4665.823,"text":"投票是多數民主國家的基本標準台灣如果繼續維持在20歲不只是落後更是在制度上延後了青年進入公共參與的時間但同時我們也想強調一個很重要的態度我們支持18歲公民權但不主張它衝突上路我們制度需要配套包含學務準備行政調整以及更完整的公民教育如果只追求時間點而入列改"},{"start":4666.263,"end":4680.773,"text":"改革的品質它可能削弱改革本身的正當性我們期待的是一個可以長久運作被社會信任的18歲公民權而不是一個匆忙上路的版本接著我也想回應到今天提到中另一個關鍵的問題叫做被選舉權"},{"start":4683.195,"end":4704.453,"text":"當社會開始討論是否要下手選舉年齡的時候其實已經顯現了一個非常重要的訊號台灣社會已經準備好讓公民更直接的參與公共事務如果我們相信18歲的青年有能力做出政治選擇那我們應該更進一步的思考是否也應該讓他們有機會成為被選擇的人因此我們認為被選舉權的年齡確實應該可以開啟下手的討論"},{"start":4708.816,"end":4724.365,"text":"至於具體年齡如何設定是否以不同職務設計差異形成門檻我們認為可以交由立法院相關委員會以及主管機關透過專業與社會對話來形成共識但方向是清楚的讓青年不只是參與者也有機會成為決策者"},{"start":4725.766,"end":4750.316,"text":"最後我們也想要從憲法發展與實務解釋的角度來回應今天提綱中關於憲法第130條的討論目前憲法第130條的規定是說年滿20歲者有依法選舉職權在法律解釋上確實存在不同的見解這究竟是對權力的保障還是對年齡的甚至但我們認為在討論這個問題的時候不應該只停留在條文的字面"},{"start":4751.016,"end":4767.423,"text":"裡面在我國的實務中司法院4至第392號解釋就曾指出憲法並不是一個禁止的概念它是會隨著我們國家與社會的發展在既有的條文之下不斷的透過解釋與適用來回應新的時代情境這提醒我們"},{"start":4769.284,"end":4794.634,"text":"宪法的意义不只是来自于历史文本本身而是需要放在整体秩序与当代价值之中被重新理解与实现同样的我们也可以看到宪法第160条原条文里面有规定6年的国民义务国民教育那在今天台湾已经发展成为12年国教的国家这些发展都说明了一件事情宪法所揭示的制度并不是一成不变的"},{"start":4795.074,"end":4819.219,"text":"而是隨著社會需求不斷的調整與深化因此當我們今天面對憲法第130條時關鍵不只是條文怎麼解釋而是現行制度是否仍然符合當代社會對於公民權的見解我們認為不論最終是透過法律修正或是進一步的憲政程序重點不在於入境本身而在於是否有這個意願將既有的社會共識轉化為實體的"},{"start":4822.373,"end":4843.043,"text":"最後我們想說18歲公民權它不只是讓青年去投票它代表的是我們是否我們這個社會是否真正相信青年是否讓青年願意成為民主的一部分如果青年基本法是價值的宣示那麼18歲公民權它就是一個制度的實踐我們期待立法院能延續既有的跨黨派共識"},{"start":4844.224,"end":4862.85,"text":"稳健推进的修法让这项权利真正落实同时我们也认为应该要对社会公民进行沟通让民众们知道修宪与修法并非冲突最终是为了达到18岁公民权法之后的途径选择让青年人参与能发声也能共同决定台湾的未来谢谢大家"},{"start":4872.23,"end":4901.017,"text":"我們下一位邀請廖毅民教授發言主席各位委員各位先進大家好我是國立高雄大學政治法律學系的廖毅民很榮幸受大院邀請到此公聽會來發言並且提出一些來自南台灣的意見"},{"start":4903.182,"end":4919.998,"text":"針對18歲公民權的修法議題我並不反對任何一項已通過或正在審議的法案而是希望就投票年齡下修至18歲這項重要的民主進步的修法呢提出一個我認為不能迴避的配套問題請各位委員及相關主管機關能夠認真加以正視"},{"start":4921.502,"end":4940.669,"text":"首先我必須非常明確的表示我非常支持將投票年齡下修至18歲這是台灣民主發展的重要里程碑18歲的年輕人已經完成基礎教育許多人也進入大學職場甚至於已經在繳稅服役但有資格也有能力對這個國家的未來表達意見"},{"start":4941.829,"end":4959.338,"text":"也就是這項修法代表國家正式宣告台灣這個社會承認18歲的公民具備參與民主政治的判斷能力與公民資格這一點我沒有任何異議也無法提出任何反對的意見但我個人對這方面的支持還是有條件的"},{"start":4960.575,"end":4988.743,"text":"因為今天的這個議題的重點在於我們立法院是否能夠透過立法來制定一個法律文字明顯違反憲法條文的法律關於這個問題我認為有一個更必須要討論的進一步問題那就是這樣的修法通過之後究竟會不會產生大法官未來在某種案件上必須宣告此一修法是違憲的才能夠符合憲法條文並且能夠平息民怨"},{"start":4989.892,"end":5014.758,"text":"我認為此修法如果通過的話大法官必須如果未來在某些案件上面必須宣告他違憲可能會是因為當國家宣告18歲具有公民資格的同時我們的少年司法制度卻未能做同步檢討因此造成了部分人民有可能因此而受到憲法所保障的權利受到嚴重的侵害"},{"start":5015.97,"end":5036.853,"text":"而這個議題又是涉及到前些日子大院也非常重視的善事法的修法議題現行少年事業處理法對12歲到18歲的未成年人提供了相當程度的司法保護這種制度的立法初衷我完全了解也相當尊重少年的心智尚在發展具有高度的可塑性"},{"start":5037.674,"end":5057.293,"text":"司法介入應以教育、矯正、富規社會為優先而非單純的懲罰這個精神完全沒有錯但這個制度執行結果到現在達到什麼樣的目的呢我們都看到達到了也出現了相當嚴重的制度上的漏洞這個制度上的漏洞被有心人被犯罪人士有系統的利用"},{"start":5058.214,"end":5080.757,"text":"主要就是我們都能看到的詐騙集團與犯罪組織正在利用邵氏法來作為他們招募未成年人的一個非常好的理由近年來台灣詐騙集團、毒品犯人網路以及各類幫派組織刻意大量及系統性的招募未成年人擔任犯罪工作的第一線執行者"},{"start":5081.717,"end":5101.267,"text":"讓少年去擔任詐騙的車手領取被害人的錢提供或出售個人帳號成為洗錢工具運送毒品擔任第一線的運毒員以及在暴力討債或聚眾支持當中衝鋒陷陣為什麼犯罪組織要這樣做答案非常簡單也非常令人不安因為他們知道"},{"start":5101.807,"end":5117.946,"text":"未成年人就算被抓在現行肇事法的保護之下受到法律後果也相當輕微前科紀錄也受到保護對犯罪組織來說使用未成年人的犯罪成本非常低於成年人"},{"start":5119.27,"end":5139.929,"text":"這不是我的推測而是犯罪組織公開對少年講的話他們告訴這些孩子說你還沒成年就算抓他們也沒事少年法院頂多給你保護處分不會關你或者是幫我們做有錢來又不會怎麼樣各位委員當一部保護少年的法律變成犯罪集團招募少年的廣告詞的時候這樣法律執行就出現了嚴重問題"},{"start":5142.25,"end":5152.935,"text":"於是我們必須問的是我們現在的少年保護制度我們現在少年保護制度是否能夠符合我們所期望的將公民權下修到18歲這樣的一種社會的整體共識"},{"start":5156.207,"end":5169.617,"text":"因此我們必須回到今天的議題國家決定將投票年齡下縮到18歲這代表一個非常重要的法律宣示也就是18歲具有公民判斷的能力但在這個同時我們的少年司法制度卻對15歲16歲17歲也就是不到18歲"},{"start":5173.94,"end":5197.974,"text":"即使才少一天的少年犯下嚴重罪行仍然維持於相對輕度的法律後果這產生了一個邏輯上的矛盾也就是說國家說18歲可以決定誰來治理這個國家但制度就說18歲以下犯詐欺、孕吐、暴力犯罪仍然以保護為優先責任相對有限"},{"start":5199.025,"end":5215.199,"text":"我在這裡並不是要說少年不需要保護我也並不是主張說要把所有少年都當作成年來處罰我想說的是當我們提升年輕人的政治權利的時候我們也應該同時同步的提升他們的法律責任讓權利與責任能夠真正對等"},{"start":5218.522,"end":5238.877,"text":"一個只享有權力卻不需要承擔對等責任的制度設計並不是在保護年輕人而是給年輕人傳遞一個錯誤的訊號那就是在台灣年輕人可以享有權力但不必承擔責任這樣的訊號對年輕人的法治來說是有害的因此我有以下幾個具體主張首先"},{"start":5239.958,"end":5269.117,"text":"我主張少年事件的這個責任分級的話應該與我們這次的這個18歲公民權下修這個議題能夠綁在一起現行肇事法對12歲至18歲的少年基本上才統一的保護主義框架但12歲到17歲在心智、成熟、判斷能力、社會經驗上其實有著相當大的差異我建議將公民權下修到18歲的同時更應考慮建立更細緻的年齡分級責任制度"},{"start":5269.637,"end":5288.127,"text":"比方說12歲到14歲應該維持保護教育與矯正為主的處理原則15歲到17歲對於重大故意犯罪尤其是詐欺、毒品、組織犯罪、暴力犯罪應該建立更明確更有效的責任機制以及接近18歲者"},{"start":5289.748,"end":5308.767,"text":"對特定的嚴重犯罪因嚴育引入或更接近成人責任的處理方式這樣的分級才能夠保留少年保護的精神也能夠讓責任制度符合現實第二個我主張要明文加重利用少年犯罪的這個成年人的刑責我必須強調少年往往是被利用的"},{"start":5309.648,"end":5310.589,"text":"以上是我個人的意見 謝謝"},{"start":5340.435,"end":5342.784,"text":"那我們下一位邀請蔡企業理事長發言"},{"start":5356.65,"end":5376.666,"text":"好 祝熙那在座各位關心18歲公民權的各位夥伴大家早安 大家好我是臺灣EDO教育協會的理事長蔡奇業那首先我想要代表協會的立場表達我們當然支持以修法的方式來推動並且完成18歲公民權那回到今天的討論提綱其實我想我們先從國際比較的角度來談起"},{"start":5377.907,"end":5392.786,"text":"其實近代民主國家就18歲公民權的立法時程來看降低投票年齡是一個很顯著的趨勢就如同剛剛茶余慧先進所提到的那早在1946年其實捷克就已經率先的將投票年齡由21歲降到18歲"},{"start":5395.189,"end":5410.129,"text":"那其後在1960年代從英國、加拿大、德國到美國這些我們目前所想見的民主國家其實也基於權力跟義務對等的概念我們已經展開了這一波的降低投票年齡的運動"},{"start":5411.673,"end":5438.384,"text":"那在這之後其實也逐步擴展到全球目前世界上絕大多數的民主國家我們已知的都已經將18歲作為投票年齡那甚至是像奧地利其實在2007年也進一步的將投票年齡下修到16歲那最近2024年的歐洲議會選舉其實包含比利時、德國、奧地利、馬爾他等四個國家的最低投票年齡也是16歲"},{"start":5440.555,"end":5466.203,"text":"參考鄰近國家日本在2016年的時候他們在參議院選舉的時候18歲開始有了投票權韓國跟馬來西亞也在2019年的時候完成了改革把投票年齡下修到18歲所以我想就世界上主要的國家對於選舉年齡的規範上毫無疑問的是最低投票年齡的共識是以18歲為主的"},{"start":5468.171,"end":5485.978,"text":"甚至許多國家的討論都是聚焦在我們是否要向下邁向16歲所以台灣目前是東亞唯一一個人將公職人員的選舉權的門檻設在20歲的民族國家我們也是少數把最近投票年齡定在高於18歲的一個國家"},{"start":5487.782,"end":5508.087,"text":"那再來我想從整個我國的整個法治體系來看其實民法在2023年也已經把成年年齡下修到18歲那其實談到兒少權法我們也是以18歲作為兒少與成人的分界那再來其實去年剛通過的青年基本法我們也明確的把青年的定義定義在18歲以上"},{"start":5510.187,"end":5535.409,"text":"所以把選舉權的年齡調降到18歲不只是跟國際社會接軌我們也是讓18歲在權力跟義務上相符那當然今天的重點應該是我們是不是可以透過修法的方式來處理18歲公民權那就青年團體的立場來講我們當然是明確支持修法的路徑但我想我們必須要再進一步釐清的其實正如剛才余慧仙靜所提到的"},{"start":5535.789,"end":5555.845,"text":"在2022年的立法院討論修憲最後的共識其實是因為在修憲上更有共識所以我們才採取了修憲的路徑但是當時並沒有進一步討論修法的可能可是其實從民間團體的立場來說一直我們都有主張修法跟修憲"},{"start":5556.545,"end":5579.142,"text":"的這個可能性所以其實這個是在當時的脈絡下修憲的支持相對比較有共識的情況下才採取修憲的入境那特別是到2022年的修憲覆決其實在960萬票的這個高門檻下其實同意票仍然大於不同意票所以其實在社會上也是有多數民意的支持"},{"start":5580.458,"end":5597.196,"text":"那所以我想剛才其實有議會先進有提到這可能會有這個變相打臉立法院與民意的問題但我想在這個朝野跨黨派有共識的情況下那其實我們也在社會共識具有多數民意的支持下我想並沒有所謂打臉的問題"},{"start":5599.438,"end":5616.76,"text":"特別是其實這個修憲覆決沒有辦法通過的原因並不是因為民意不支持而是制度上修憲的門檻過高導致我們無法實現18歲公民權那到現在其實我們看到剛才的所有的與會專家學者其實都支持18歲公民權"},{"start":5618.041,"end":5639.562,"text":"但是到今天我們定下的這個修憲門檻我想目前想要改變是恐怕很困難的所以如果我們都是支持18歲公民權的這個前提下那我們應該在憲法有解釋空間的情況下我們盡速的來通過跟實施但我想否則我們可以預見的是"},{"start":5640.864,"end":5647.353,"text":"在大家就算都支持18歲公民權的前提下我們很有可能在未來的10年20年因為憲法上的問題而導致我們18歲公民權遲遲的沒有辦法落實"},{"start":5653.81,"end":5680.239,"text":"至於今天另外一個討論到18歲公務權是否包含被選舉權的部分我們的立場是我們認為應該要納入而且在制度上其實也有正當性我想首先當然就如同剛才所講的法律上既然已經承認18歲具備完全的行為能力那就代表18歲應該具備承擔權利跟義務的這樣的一個基本的能力也應該具備基本參政的權利"},{"start":5681.109,"end":5699.817,"text":"所以對於18歲公民權在被選舉權的部分我想有一部分的誤解必須要來釐清是18歲就算具有被選舉權我們在未來定定之後其實也不代表18歲就可以毫無限制的參選就如同剛才大家所討論到的其實"},{"start":5701.238,"end":5729.637,"text":"目前包含憲法第45條是規範包含總統副總統的候選人年齡需年滿40歲那目前的工作人員選舉罷免法第24條也有規定直轄市長跟縣市長候選年齡需要滿30歲那鄉鎮市長跟這個原住民區長的候選人也必須要年滿26歲所以以上的這一些這個不論是憲法也好或是這個法律也好在沒有更動的情況下面我們目前的被選舉"},{"start":5730.778,"end":5750.543,"text":"年齡的改變並不會隨之的發生那所以我想在18歲具備選舉權的這個部分其實最終的決定權還是掌握在選民的手中那選民的選擇認為這個候選人是不是具備具有合適能夠事任這個位置的這個"},{"start":5753.111,"end":5770.446,"text":"問題其實才是候選人是否有辦法擔任公職的原因那所以如果選民最後投票否決了這樣子的候選人認為他不適任那我想這個可能才是問題的本因我們不應該因為這樣子而限制在被選舉人的年齡"},{"start":5771.738,"end":5800.152,"text":"那最後關於這個未來制度的推動其實我想除了既有的公民教育應該要在強化以外其實在模擬投票等等的制度也應該在未來假設通過18歲公民權的情況下我們要協助首投組做整個包括首席選舉流程的一個動作那我們也應該要繼續的承擔不論是中選會或是教育部都應該要來做選民的教育的一個責任那我們建立一個更完整的知識體系"},{"start":5801.192,"end":5815.405,"text":"我想最後最重要的是18歲公民權的討論其實也不只是年齡的調整是我們怎麼樣看待青年在這個社會中的位置所以我們還是呼籲立法院應該要盡速的來拍攝18歲公民權的修法草案謝謝大家我們下一位邀請陳育仁會長發言"},{"start":5836.409,"end":5863.064,"text":"主席在座各位委員然後青年團體夥伴與會先進 大家好我是國立台北大學生涯校育學生會會長陳育仁首先我想要強調就是朝野對於18歲公民權這件事情是有高度共識的那也在這樣子的基礎上面通過了早先通過了青年基本法那也在第20條條文內明定兩年內需要完備相關的法制那也因此有今天這樣子的公聽會那讓大家來表達相關的意見"},{"start":5864.164,"end":5889.966,"text":"那作為一個大學學生或會長我們在大學校園裡面代表學生那跟校方爭取權益那我們也相信民主能夠深化相信民主治理跟公民教育能夠成為推動社會前進的動力在大學學生自治組織裡面雖然有一部分是其他的政治體制但絕大多數都是採取直選會長這件事情也是我們繼高中之後在校園裡面人就能夠進行類似於縣市首長或總統投票選舉的行為"},{"start":5891.82,"end":5920.007,"text":"那在高中也是類似的情況但高中與大學有幾乎類似的不一樣的現象高中生其實沒有投票權對於政治的討論也有所不同但我想大家對於政治的這份想參與的熱忱是不變的那2022年的時候那個時候我只是一個高中生那我在新聞上面看到修憲公投送出立法院的那一天我開始想像自己在18歲的時候能夠投下人生中第一張選票的那一刻那我想跟我差不多年紀的人都有類似這樣子的想像然後現實是由於修憲的門檻高到幾乎實質使修憲廢除"},{"start":5922.307,"end":5944.439,"text":"即使有564萬張的同意票仍然距離門檻有一大截近年來我們開始思考需要落實18歲公民權究竟需不需要修憲憲法130條對於所謂國民年滿20歲者有依法選舉之權究竟是一個限制還是最低限度的保障那對於憲法130條有解釋空間可以修法來實現18歲公民權"},{"start":5947.66,"end":5970.869,"text":"從2011年耀元豪老師在內政部座談會初步提出後期間經歷2022年的修憲公投讓學界注意到這個議題那以及2024年的憲法學會的專題研討會許多學者都紛紛表態已經成為主流穩定的見解包含陳欣明前大法官、台大林明星、台大嚴絕安、政大林佳和、台大李念祖、中人林孟然"},{"start":5972.049,"end":5983.32,"text":"政大陳靜惠、世新謝碩俊等十幾位老師都持此見解就算再加上醫療會保留太多的老師仍然是明顯多數已經是公法學界主流穩定的見解"},{"start":5984.847,"end":6009.005,"text":"近年來,由於科技的進步,教育水準的上升,世界各國對於成年的定義逐步下調至18歲,除了可能對於身體造成危害,如煙酒等在各國有不同的限制之外,不論在刑事、民事、納稅以及最重要的選舉前,幾乎都設定在18歲。而台灣在逐步下調民事、稅務、金融等等的限制之後,也應該要配合其他義務的下調,讓18歲的青年能夠有相對應的權利。"},{"start":6010.68,"end":6033.12,"text":"在這樣子的基礎下究竟需不需要修憲我想也是今天最大的爭點但在這樣子的國際情勢以及環境公法學者們的見解與意見都一再告訴我們130條所謂的國民年滿20歲者有依法選舉之權應該要是基本權的保障而不是限制20歲以下的青年不得投票不論是為了使權利義務相符或是擴大青年參政我都認為應該也必須這麼做讓18歲公民權可以落地執行"},{"start":6036.943,"end":6049.652,"text":"我們也認為18歲的選舉權涉及兩部選罷法的部分只要修法就好在文獻的疑慮上面也有學術的支持而國際情勢也告訴我們18歲公民權是世界的趨勢是必須要做的一件事情"},{"start":6050.595,"end":6074.371,"text":"那我們也觀察到在大學校園裡面由於公民權尚且界定在20歲20歲以上的人有投票權20歲以下的人沒有投票權在校園的討論中大家對政治的想像跟理解就有一點不一樣例如說總統大學的時候我們觀察到有投票權的同學對於能夠投票這件事情是感到驕傲的對於民主這件事情是感到期待的也對總統大學是有所期待相對來說沒有投票權的同學在這方面就少了一點動機"},{"start":6075.692,"end":6096.98,"text":"那我們都知道人是需要動機去驅使才能夠有所進步才會對某件事情感到興趣那我們需要父權才能夠使青年對於公共事務對於政治更有動力18歲的青年對於公共事務對於政治的了解跟20歲的青年並沒有太大的差異而在這樣的前提下又有相對應的義務需要負責的情況下為什麼需要把限制設定在20歲呢"},{"start":6098.803,"end":6117.394,"text":"最後我想再次重申憲法130條應該是保障基本權而不是限制在憲法解釋上如果需要追溯到制憲者的原意那憲法作為一部根本大法將無法與時俱進需要經常修改如果能夠以語意來解釋讓國際趨勢權責相符的公民權下調至18歲也才是真正的明智之舉"},{"start":6118.414,"end":6147.148,"text":"三十年後的台灣社會答案就在今日的校園通過兩部選罷法的修法讓十八歲的青年學生能夠參與選舉參與共共事務是世界的趨勢也是台灣未來應該要朝向的方向同時為了要呼籲行政院跟立院朝野應該要呼應時代的趨勢也配合青年基本法在普遍認為和諧的情況下儘速完成兩部選罷法的三讀使權責相符讓2022年時五百六十四萬的民意能夠落實謝謝大家我是國立台北大學三大校區學生會會長陳玉文"},{"start":6156.636,"end":6158.696,"text":"好 我們下一位邀請陳耀祥助理教授"},{"start":6173.13,"end":6192.67,"text":"主席我們各位與會的學者專家各機關的代表大家早安首先感謝大會的邀請今天針對這個18歲公民權修法這個部分來表達個人的意見那其實前面已經發言很多我想有一些相同意見我就不再重複表達那"},{"start":6193.922,"end":6202.839,"text":"誠如剛才有很多的學徒專家或是我們青年的代表裡面所提到的那憲法我們第17條裡面就明文規定說人民有選舉罷免創知覆覺之權利"},{"start":6205.103,"end":6226.221,"text":"也就是說我們則參政權那為什麼憲法裡面會第12章特別針對選舉罷免創制復決呢又訂立一個制度的規定這是比較少人提到的那我查了一下這個我們中華民國的制憲史這裡有帶一個雷正先生當時所寫的這個政治協商會議憲法查裡面特別提到"},{"start":6227.342,"end":6234.106,"text":"其實我們在憲法裡面有一些關於這個年紀或是有一些數字的設計比如說我們憲法第8條有24小時的規定那我們憲法第45條關於總統副總統選舉人的年齡的基本的門檻有40歲的規定"},{"start":6244.991,"end":6266.659,"text":"或是包括我們130條各位都知道129條到136條這個是特別針對選舉這個部分這個部分是在憲法所謂的修正原則的第10點裡面提到這個議題簡單來講他就是要把這個部分寫清楚那為什麼要寫清楚比如說他寫清楚包括除了選舉權20歲被選舉權23歲來講的話"},{"start":6271.328,"end":6294.568,"text":"那主要是當時政黨之間彼此不信任就是說原來在國民黨所提的五五憲潮裡面來講的話被選舉選是25歲可是那為什麼這些民主黨派包括社民黨或者是包括青年黨代表認為國民黨原來這種所謂的國民大會所謂權能區分制度這種間接民權並不符合民主的潮流"},{"start":6295.248,"end":6307.419,"text":"所以他們引用西方的這種憲政民主議會民主的方式要求這個所謂的直接民主選舉所以特別針對選舉這個制度在憲法第12章裡面有這個特別的規定"},{"start":6308.493,"end":6328.147,"text":"那前面剛剛有學者也提到的確當時來講為什麼是20歲是因為跟成年是結合在一起的所以成年人來講的話他也有已經有開始所謂的自己的完全的行為能力所以他也可以參與公共事務是這樣結合在一起的可是為什麼把20歲寫清楚"},{"start":6328.747,"end":6356.937,"text":"就是怕20歲如果沒有寫清楚來講的話就像我們憲法第8條的24小時總統的40歲的這個規定來講擔心了當時的執政黨萬一透過修法來講又把這個東西做更動所以當時來講的話他致謝所有他的時空背景所以20歲我覺得會什麼會寫清楚這個部分比較少提到那我們目前大家碰到這個議題是我剛才所講是80年前的這種時空的狀況"},{"start":6358.31,"end":6378,"text":"比如說我個人來講 我當然贊成這個選舉的投票的年齡下修為18歲 這是我贊成的甚至以公民的選舉的 公民的各種所謂的權利來講的話應該讓青年人有參與這個我們公共政策參與整個國家決策的機會跟制度 這個我是絕對贊成的"},{"start":6380.141,"end":6407.935,"text":"這個涉及到我們所講叫世代爭議的議題其實我們今天在談18歲公民權其實不是只是單純選舉的問題而已還包括各種世代爭議的議題我認為來講的話在這個蘇維時代裡面讓年輕人更早參與整個公共政策尤其選舉之後是贊成可是我們現在面對的困境是說我們在2020年舉行過修憲的公投沒過那今天要用修法的方式來處理要怎麼去處理這個議題我個人看法"},{"start":6408.815,"end":6421.356,"text":"今天來講的話的確修法會有在整個有沒有違憲有沒有合憲性的疑慮的問題那是不是當然違憲呢這個當然我們有個人見仁見智但是我有一個想法一個建議"},{"start":6423.976,"end":6439.625,"text":"立法院如果要修改這個選罷法把它下調為18歲來講的話我認為唯一目前來講比較可行的方法是透過申請制限的方法去處理這個問題因為有一個非常重要的點就是說當時我們在制限的時候"},{"start":6441.115,"end":6462.82,"text":"是把這個所謂行使這個所謂選舉罷免創制複決的年齡是跟成年是掛鉤在一起的那現在呢成年的年紀下降了那憲法這個20歲來講的話從目的解釋上來講是不是有可能下降為18歲唯一有這種方法來講的話透過大法官解釋呢"},{"start":6463.42,"end":6481.795,"text":"或許是有一條可能的活路我覺得目前來講因為以我們2005年修憲以後來講整個修憲的程序基本上是被凍結了當然因為我們台灣也不可否認我們對國家認同有不同的重大的歧義所以修憲的門檻是非常高的"},{"start":6482.515,"end":6502.408,"text":"那所以我這裡也跟我們這很多年輕人有些在推動NGO這種所謂的青年活動的青年代表們建議就是說我們對話的對象不是只有青年人而且是各個世代的人 各個年紀的人然後一個非常重要的議題是說當我們在處理這個議題的時候來講的話"},{"start":6505.141,"end":6533.253,"text":"不是只是所謂選舉權應該更擴大那當然大院如果要修改這個所謂相關的選罷法把它擴大降低為18歲也一定會面臨到我個人認為會面臨到這個所謂有沒有違憲的這個挑戰那這個時候呢我認為讓大法官就我們這個憲法的這個部分表示意見這是將來可惜的一個方法因為我們的憲法解釋裡面來講話除了文藝解釋以外另外一個就是所謂的"},{"start":6533.686,"end":6559.852,"text":"目的解釋或是歷史解釋那我剛才所談的部分來講主要是從我們歷史在制限過程裡面為什麼20歲會寫得這麼清楚那就是因為當時制限者彼此之間認為不是那麼的互信那麼高把它寫清楚大家比較不會未來來講的話可能透過修法去把它動到這個部分那當時的預想剛好跟我們現在的想像剛好是顛倒的"},{"start":6561.272,"end":6585.307,"text":"我現在想像反而是說透過修法讓他更有彈性所以未來不管是說我們再繼續推動修憲也好或是大院再透過修法也好我是建議的不一定要把它寫成20歲或是18歲只要是成年就可以去連結這反而是符合我們憲法的本質因為誰知道我們現在成年是18歲這樣成年搞不好16歲就成年了"},{"start":6586.067,"end":6608.884,"text":"那與其這樣子每年為了這種18歲20歲16歲這種東西來講反而從目的上解釋說青年他是成年了成年除了可以對自己的行為負責作為一個公民可以所謂自我自己的私人的權利義務以外他已經成熟到可以參與公共政策我覺得把他跟成年扣合在一起"},{"start":6609.504,"end":6620.811,"text":"這也符合制憲者當時制憲的目的也符合現在全世界對於青年參政的潮流以上個人的淺見 敬請陳卓參我們下一位請陳育進會長發言"},{"start":6645.448,"end":6668.176,"text":"感謝教委各位先進各位與會代表大家早安我是政大學生會長陳玉靜蒙前述各位諸位前輩的啟發我個人也受益良多也容我在此基礎上都能提出兩項淺薄的個人觀察第一個想要討論的是公民能力的形成機制作為目前大學學生會長想優先強調的是無可辯駁的"},{"start":6669.116,"end":6688.868,"text":"現在大學部的學生就是一半落在18至19歲的區間另一半落在20到21歲這個區間這樣那又使然上其實我們可以看到無論從課堂到課室外廣義上的政治參與及實踐上這一半的學生也已經具備足夠的知識能力且他們有不遜於大學部高年級學生的參與動能"},{"start":6690.089,"end":6709.046,"text":"除此之外縱觀而言就是今天可以看到反對降低投票年齡的理由比較大宗是擔心18歲青年他們是否具備足夠判斷能力當然這樣的質疑本身無疑是預設了就是青年的判斷力將自然而然隨年齡增長然而回扣我們對於民主制度的期待和想像"},{"start":6709.666,"end":6731.572,"text":"應該也理應包含提供一個透過實踐培養政治判斷的場域舉凡投票、辯論、資訊查證還有問責的能力都難以在隔離的環境中習得這因為伴隨後果的這個真實選舉的結果會實際影響權力的分配、決定政策的走向作為參與者因而會更有動機去權衡利弊"},{"start":6732.632,"end":6753.761,"text":"來為自己的判斷負責這種基於對後果有所體認而產生的意識是我認為從其他管道上根本上無法複製跟取代的一級如果我們今天將同票權設定在20歲的話其實實在的在源頭限制了18歲到19歲這群青年培養就是相應能力的可能"},{"start":6754.301,"end":6769.694,"text":"因為公民能力也不會在20歲的生日前夜理所當然的降臨他可能更需要在真實的選舉過程中逐步的積累所以在此推遲參與無異於是在從源頭限制了公民能力的形成"},{"start":6770.374,"end":6797.027,"text":"那第二個想要討論的是就是涉及這個民主制度的基本原則就是在前面的討論脈絡中也經常被提及的權利和義務應該相符這件事情那檢視我國盛行的法律規範大致刑法到更生活層面的道路安全規範我們都可以看到對18歲以上的青年已經賦予了更多的義務跟期待包含期待他們可以為自身的財務紀律那大到人生大事全權的負責"},{"start":6798.007,"end":6818.681,"text":"也認可他們有能力可以進入公家機關為民服務但比較吊詭的是同樣是這一群十八、十九歲的青年卻被排除在大選的選舉之外正如柯智恩委員跟陳吉威委員在提案說明中所提到的已然產生了自使權利與義務顯不相當有責任但無權利之不對稱之情形"},{"start":6819.562,"end":6847.665,"text":"進一步而言在涉及重大政策比如高校資源分配兵役制度和防世政策這些影響期間可以自這群青年正在經歷的此時此刻延伸到十至二十年後的將來的時候作為深受影響的群體這些政策被審議被表決和執行的過程中卻難以發揮直接影響力所以我認為在從民主問責的角度來看這樣的制度安排顯然是有可以進一步討論檢討跟調整的空間的"},{"start":6849.746,"end":6869.705,"text":"眾上所述大方向向個人非常支持將投票年齡調整至18歲這除了是對於制度能夠持續保持靈活度能夠不排除滾動式調整的可能性的期待之外也是我認為在民主實踐中能夠為青年逐步培養判斷與承擔能力的一個參與起點 謝謝"},{"start":6878.663,"end":6882.586,"text":"我們下一位邀請鍾嘉賓委員發言 那麼委員發言時間為5分鐘謝謝主席 今天能夠看到18歲公民權修法進入公聽會而且這個公聽會有諸多的青年學子來代表發言我想非常的於肯定那也看到過去熟悉的學者專家也在這個議題上"},{"start":6907.143,"end":6922.942,"text":"有或許意見不盡相同但是用心都是一樣可貴那我想作為立法院的委員我們來回顧一下在18歲公民權這個議題從我1996年進入國民大會擔任第三屆國大代表以來就在爭取這個"},{"start":6925.29,"end":6952.353,"text":"公民的參政權能夠符合社會的需要調到18歲但是一晃眼30年過去了所以我們在看到底18歲公民權在現在跟當年有什麼差別其實我們可以討論到18歲公民權剛聽了幾位年輕年代表的意見大概有一個從實然上現在18歲的年輕人在很多國家都是"},{"start":6953.194,"end":6971.842,"text":"可以具有完整的權利行使而我們在民法修改後呢他們也必須要負責成年人的責任那因此在這樣的說明當中認為不管是從世界各國的比較還是就我們法律當中相關的規定似乎18歲已成年那麼是不是成年就應該付給公民權尤其是"},{"start":6973.363,"end":6995.48,"text":"選舉權我想這是一個主流的論述那當然我們看到憲法當中有從法理上 英藍上我們怎麼去解釋憲法明文的規定國民年滿20歲依法有選舉權那這樣的規定到底是不是限制了我們在思考這個法律上英藍上怎麼去改變的問題過去在策略上我們也選擇了透過修憲"},{"start":6997.882,"end":7014.244,"text":"所以現在雖然有成案而且是三黨當時的朝野各政黨一致同意成案成案後送交公民投票但是沒有通過那沒有通過是代表什麼呢是代表國民意志整個國家的國民意志反對這個事情"},{"start":7015.703,"end":7038.38,"text":"是這樣嗎?如果修憲沒有過的案子是不是代表的就在國民意志上被否決或推翻呢?好像也沒辦法這樣說只是說未達到修憲的門檻以至於不能完成修憲但不意味著是透過這樣的修憲過程當中否決了18歲公民權它的一個實然上可以爭取的空間所以我是覺得呢首先先認定"},{"start":7039.181,"end":7056.682,"text":"修憲不成不代表國民反對這個意見這一點恐怕是要先確定的但是在這個同時我們也發現了一些有趣的地方譬如說青年基本法立法院在去年青年基本法當中呢就把條文明明白白的寫進去18歲政府要保障青年的參政權"},{"start":7058.024,"end":7082.417,"text":"糟糕了 青年基本法它不是一個強制性的法律它有宣示性的效果 這樣叫基本法嘛但是這個基本法可以去含涉要求選罷法做相對應的修改嗎恐怕中選委也好 內政委也好 他們也沒有辦法從政得出的結論而且我看今天的多數意見還是表達說並沒有對於18歲可不可以有公民"},{"start":7083.197,"end":7094.428,"text":"可以有選舉權有做出可否的意見表示但是都提到憲法現行的規定似乎限制了我們行政機關在對賦予18歲公民選舉權做一個積極的表態所以呢我們就不禁要問了如果從法理上來講那麼"},{"start":7103.058,"end":7119.737,"text":"國會的意識已經明白的表示青年基本法政府應該保障18歲青年的參政權那憲法又還沒有辦法修憲通過那到底其他的法律可不可以改我們可以從一些各些國家的經驗來思考比如說"},{"start":7120.878,"end":7125.642,"text":"在民法那時候從20歲還沒有下車到18歲之前也發生過類似的問題譬如說我那時候就曾經為了這個探討成年的定義我說如果按照我們的攤商管理辦法你要滿20歲成年才可以去跟地方政府申請在市場擺攤但是如果你沒有申請在擺攤警察會不會來取締"},{"start":7142.415,"end":7148.324,"text":"但是你知道嗎 來取締的警察 他要執行公權力18歲考入 如果當年警校是兩年的時候他有可能20歲不到 他就來當警察他就來取締你這個沒有辦法取得攤商證照的這個年輕人"},{"start":7157.478,"end":7178.245,"text":"一個未滿20歲的警察來取締一個未滿20歲沒有辦法取得攤商證照的這個事情不是很荒謬嗎所以我們要一般上去思考譬如說飲酒的年齡譬如說考駕照的年齡那這些都在很多民主國家在思考的時候似乎都會先抓一條線就是成年這個是一個基準線"},{"start":7179.185,"end":7203.02,"text":"什麼年齡我們可以往上調譬如說在有些國家成年人不能抽菸你要超過成年的年齡一定年齡後他認為延緩你受到菸毒強害的時間所以不見得成年就代表什麼事都可以做而這個基準線這個基準線那裡之後我們來討論哪些行為必須超過這個基準線才能賦予哪些低於這個基準線才可以賦予所以有些國家沒有成年人16歲就可以考駕照"},{"start":7204.261,"end":7225.461,"text":"所以因此我們在思考成年這個定義的時候它會不會是一個基準線如果我們國家對於成年的基準線已經拉到18歲那我們可以好好來的探討18歲除了成年同時有哪些事情他還不能做要延後有哪些事情他可以提早做還有哪些事情他同時可以做但是如果我們立法院有這樣的討論之後那怎麼辦呢"},{"start":7226.604,"end":7230.609,"text":"如果會不會發生一樣新年基本法我們也通過了我們陸續修了選罷法結果我們就規定滿18歲可以有依法就可以選舉權那這問題掉到誰那裡憲法法庭嘛"},{"start":7239.232,"end":7264.022,"text":"所以到底我們的修法有沒有辦法去追溯原憲法立憲者的原意這有很多討論剛剛姚老師也提到了原來的這個被選舉權23歲依憲法附法律令委規定之外年滿23歲有被選舉權因為憲法本身就有提到總統要實施才能被選舉所以他有這樣的一個規定所以當這樣的一個情況我們來自己局限的時候是不是我們可以大人的說那好"},{"start":7264.562,"end":7290.718,"text":"那現在我們也沒辦法去推究立憲者的原意我們憲法修憲也沒辦法得到全民達到門檻的共識那如果我們透過立法的手段像立青年基本法這樣立了之後那麼如果有人對於說這個有抵觸憲法之餘請大法官憲法法庭來審理那最後因為憲法法庭的決定就視同有修憲的效力那這是不是一條另外一條路呢公聽會不見得有答案但是公聽會可以提出問題請提出這個問題的方向我們共同來思考 謝謝"},{"start":7300.387,"end":7313.107,"text":"好 我們下一位邀請何潔恩發起人發言好 辛苦的廖召偉然後在場的嘉賓委員"},{"start":7314.281,"end":7336.532,"text":"列席的長官、團體夥伴、律師先進還有老師們好我是青年思潮的發起人傑恩現在也是政大反應所的學生青年思潮是從去年底開始由許多卸任的大學學生會長成立的青年組織我們關心18到27歲的青年在我國內政性議題上的權益也就包含今天所討論的18歲公民權或是最近也麻煩了內政部不少的兵役體位的修正"},{"start":7336.952,"end":7351.545,"text":"居住正義 結社權 人本交通等等所以要再次的感謝昭偉身為青壯世代的立委在內政委員會持續的關心年輕人在意的題目對18歲公益權入選辦法已經安排了巡達公聽會要來晚輩立法的程序"},{"start":7352.225,"end":7370.227,"text":"那剛剛與會的老師律師還有教育委員已經對18歲公民權直接修法不修憲的合憲性提供很豐富的支持論述我想在這樣的基礎上在根據學界的意見還有中整憲法解釋的方法來聚焦兩件事第一件事憲法法庭"},{"start":7371.588,"end":7398.548,"text":"在沒有解釋之前我們其實是可以根據憲法解釋方法由立法者來做出一些解釋的那麼憲法130條解釋上有沒有空間可以修法即可在2011年我母校的廉仁豪老師初步提出時確實可能是少數學者的主張但是到了2026年經歷了15年期間經歷了2022年的修憲公投讓公法學界都注意到這個議題以及2024年公法學會所召開的18歲公民權的專題研討會"},{"start":7400.769,"end":7416.724,"text":"不分政治傾向不分老中青的公法學者都普遍表達支持目前已經累積了十幾位的公法學者表態形成公法學界的主流穩定見解除了我自己曾在幾位老師的課堂上聽過這題目甚至是2023年台大公法組的考題"},{"start":7417.524,"end":7443.197,"text":"所以對於年輕的法律人而言公法學界主流晚進認為有修法空間其實是再自然不過的認知而非少數學者或團體的冒進建議而且剛剛何衛慈律師也已經說明去年也有持此立場的法院實務見解出現對法律人而言學說還有實務的見解是同樣重要的目前學說多數還有實務已經趨於一致18歲公民權有修法空間的結論其實相當明確"},{"start":7444.758,"end":7461.788,"text":"第二今天的提綱問憲法130條應該要採取保障說來授權立法者修法即可還是要採取限制說而沒有立法者的行程空間必須要修憲需要指出的是從憲法文藝上來看或是從史料來看我們都無法得知制憲者究竟是"},{"start":7462.328,"end":7482.252,"text":"採取哪一說因此哪一說絕對正確或絕對錯誤但是今天專家學者的討論其實也沒有聚焦在這裡分歧點仍然在於現在我們要再解釋憲法的時候是否可以根據歷史解釋的方法基於制憲者的原意而得出憲法限制20歲不可以投票的結論那我想答案是否定的"},{"start":7482.732,"end":7508.37,"text":"首先需要指出一切的前提仍然是憲法130條的寫法在文藝解釋上確實留下了空間如果制限者要寫死的話他應該要寫20歲始開始的始20歲始有選舉權但是制限者只寫了20歲有選舉權這不等於20歲以下沒有選舉權這是一個很基本的邏輯問題在法學上這個是理念組老師不斷提醒的不能夠理所當然的反面解釋的問題"},{"start":7509.37,"end":7536.059,"text":"基於這樣的文藝空間就算要採取歷史解釋我們也需要看制憲者的真實意思如果回顧史料我們就會發現制憲過程中制憲者幾乎沒有在討論投票年齡他們比較聚焦在被選舉的年齡其實就是因為對制憲者而言投票年齡很單純就是要綁定民法的成年年齡林莫南老師就指出憲法130條是跟他一樣流日的張志本先生所寫制憲當時日本的學說就認為投票年齡應該要綁定民法的成年年齡"},{"start":7536.793,"end":7560.723,"text":"張之本先生恐怕就是受到這個的影響而寫出了20歲這樣的規定這樣的推測當然要小心的求證已經被政協的秘書長雷正先生的第一手史料給證實這也是剛剛陳浩翔老師聚焦的政協會議在民國35年1月召開是同一年的11月立法院正式的提出中華民國憲法草案之前最後一關的實質討論所以這場會議支線者如何討論是非常重要的"},{"start":7564.364,"end":7586.68,"text":"那最能夠還原制憲者的意思也是這場會議那剛剛曹小老師拿出了跟我一樣的書在雷震先生所寫的中華民國制憲史政治協商會議憲法草案中關於選舉的章節已經有很明確的說明他說在政協草案中選舉權的規定就是基於民法的規定制憲者認為成年人已經有行為能力的就自然應該擁有選舉權任何人都不能夠剝奪"},{"start":7590.615,"end":7611.084,"text":"至於如果有一天民法成年年齡像今天一樣被降低了那麼選舉年齡到底應該要修法還是要修憲在文藝上憲法130條其實是寫有依法選舉權所以他其實可能是傾向在憲法的規定以外如果要對選舉的資格做一些補充其實是要透過法律的那從史料上來看"},{"start":7611.724,"end":7637.977,"text":"我們看不出來制限者恐怕就是沒有任何的預料也因此沒有任何的表態這時候我們也就需要考量所謂活的憲法憲法本來就具有原則性高的穩定性還有開放性因此如果在憲法許可的範圍之內在制限者沒有設想的部分本來就可以透過立法和解釋讓憲法的內涵與時俱進而非僵化的解釋憲法或非修憲明確化不可例如婚姻一男一女基於制限者原意"},{"start":7638.437,"end":7645.142,"text":"就沒有辦法動了那同性婚姻就沒有辦法承認了憲法11條保障的言論自由也沒有辦法擴及到電視和網絡但我想憲法內還現在都已經與時俱進了"},{"start":7649.017,"end":7669.279,"text":"從史料來看有一件事情非常確定就是制限者的原意是有行為能力就有投票權所以如果要採取歷史解釋綁定民法的成年年齡會比起20歲更接近制限者的原意同時因為憲法文藝制限者原意上都沒有鎖死20歲留下了解釋空間這時候就需要綜合其他的憲法解釋方法來綜合判斷"},{"start":7670.1,"end":7697.095,"text":"在這裡就必須指出無論是我國或是其他國家的憲法法院歷來憲法解釋上都不獨尊歷史解釋反而歷史解釋往往只是參考事實上釋字392號也已經明確指出解釋憲法時制憲的史料或背景應該要謹慎使用避免流於獨斷字義所以仍然需要回歸文藝的範圍看看憲法的目的上是要保障成年人民的參政權是否可以被加以實現整體法律體系上人民何時被評價為成熟可以獨立行為的"},{"start":7697.916,"end":7701.059,"text":"從這些角度來看都會得出以法律下修選舉年齡到18歲不違背憲法的結論"},{"start":7704.301,"end":7733.087,"text":"所以如果依法市格的申請人認為違憲向憲法法庭提出審查從各種法律解釋方法來看修法實現18歲公民權應能經受得起合憲性的審查不必過度擔心在發言的最後我也希望對公聽會做一些收攏武漢開場發言的何衛慈律師林彥廷學長鄭明陽學長在去年11月有一篇刊登在報導者的投書18歲公民權修憲未成功透過修法也可以嗎我們當時寫保障說限制說在學界政界各有支持沒有定論"},{"start":7733.687,"end":7756.498,"text":"但在今天的公聽會中我們其實可以知道多數的專家學者或是不在場專家學者其實都很認同憲法保有修法到18歲的彈性反而是修法必然違憲的立論並不穩固這半年間不分政黨的立委也都已經表達支持18歲公民權入選罷法比起去年清雞法三讀時這半年已經又再往前了一步共識更大討論的也已經非常清楚"},{"start":7757.178,"end":7774.17,"text":"條件已經趨於成熟是時候可以往下推進透過修法來實現18歲公民權所以我也呼應其他代表具體建議投票年齡降低的修正案性質單純目前也有跨黨派的提案甚至已經完成各樣的立法的程序希望立法院能夠就此盡速的審查二三讀通過"},{"start":7774.91,"end":7792.527,"text":"也期望行政院能夠共同提案支持優先把憲法17條賦予人民的選舉和罷免權還給18到20歲的青年至於被選舉的年齡屬於憲法18條廣義參政權的內涵立院、政院可以在凝聚共識正式提案之後我們再另外討論處理謝謝大家,我是青年思潮的杰恩"},{"start":7800.831,"end":7804.262,"text":"我們下一位邀請陳庭楚工農發起人發言"},{"start":7822.705,"end":7836.755,"text":"主席在場各位的夥伴大家好我是台灣新文化青年協會共同發起人陳庭楚首先我要在這邊先講結論我們是支持以修法的方式來落實18歲公民權的"},{"start":7839.096,"end":7858.074,"text":"其實2022年我和在場的很多這個青年夥伴一樣我們都站在街頭目標就是為了要推動18歲公民權的修憲18歲公民權投同意這句話在當時是一件遙不可及的事情但是到了今天呢我們終於有辦法進入實質的修法討論"},{"start":7859.395,"end":7879.802,"text":"放眼全世界在230多個國家當中很少國家是用20歲以上才能投票的這個制度在實行的其中一個就是我們台灣我想今天在座很多的在家學者都已經針對法律見解都已經有各自不同的表述那我今天就以一個個人實際生活在這個制度底下的青年來談這個問題"},{"start":7882.903,"end":7907.26,"text":"我是一個工程人也是一個青年我是從事建築工作我來自一個單親家庭我由父親跟祖父母扶養長大其實我成長過程很單純我跟多數人一樣我只在乎吃飽穿亂功課有沒有寫完在我高中的時候我同學很多都是理工人所以我們日常都被技術還有功課追著跑很少對公共事務有議題有關注的"},{"start":7909.574,"end":7932.69,"text":"但是當我開始要去關注政治議題或者是討論公共議題的時候我很難獲得我收招新年同學的支持或者共鳴甚至我會被當成異類這讓我當時也開始思考我們現在資訊如此的發達而且台灣是一個民主化成熟的國家到底為什麼我收招的同學都對政治冷感"},{"start":7933.786,"end":7955.736,"text":"於是我大學進入了公共事務的參與我擔任學生會會長但是當我進入公共事務的時候我發現我們學校對於學生自治的投票率都只有10%而已這代表說當我們的權利義務不相符我們就沒有辦法去影響到年輕人的動機沒有辦法影響到周遭人他們的動機了"},{"start":7957.236,"end":7972.335,"text":"那開頭所講的2022年我19歲的時候正值地方選舉跟18歲公民權的修憲公投我原本以為我自己可以參加但是直到我沒有收到投票通知帶的那一刻起我才知道說原來我是沒有辦法投票的"},{"start":7972.967,"end":7986.787,"text":"那當時我就覺得說難道18、19歲這個年齡層能不能要投票都要大連來幫我們決定嗎難道說18、19歲這個年齡層就是次等公民嗎"},{"start":7988.457,"end":8006.753,"text":"創新其實是一件很重要的事情它關乎著一個國家的競爭力也能讓國家更有未來跟希望的感覺國家不斷的創新在於有沒有新年的政策跟新年的想法挹注到公共議題當中如果投票權跟參政權都被多數的中老年人把持年輕人不投票那我們國家只會越來越保守"},{"start":8008.149,"end":8019.306,"text":"為什麼到選舉的時候總是會出現政策上面的世代落差為什麼政黨的候選人到最後都會變成政策買票要去鞏固他的基本盤而不是去積極的論述一些政策"},{"start":8020.492,"end":8044.021,"text":"我們很常看到就是說從楊敬老金到選舉最後他就是一個討論的重點為什麼因為他有錢他可以去影響到有權投票的人為什麼老王今天他要上漲到超過一萬元因為他有辦法去影響到選民有辦法影響到有投票權的選民啊所以每次的選舉就一直加碼加碼再加碼加到好像綜藝大集合一樣不知道到底在選舉還是綜藝節目"},{"start":8046.042,"end":8073.866,"text":"所以18歲這個年齡層的青年比較有可能碰到的選舉考招制度和手機管理制度或者是最近吵得很兇的學習歷程檔案其實都到選舉最後不會被討論他們不是因為這個議題不重要是因為這個議題它影響到了年齡層他是沒有投票權的所以政治人物往往到最後就是忽視他們了那把這些社會資源都重視在比較富有的長者而去剝削這些年輕人"},{"start":8074.786,"end":8096.371,"text":"這對我們台灣社會是一件好事嗎從各項的民意調查數據統計當中都能夠得知65歲以上的年長者其實他們都已經有固定的政黨基本上就在光譜的兩極或者他們也很容易被政策買票所影響今天很多人在質疑說18歲能不能投票他有沒有成熟思考能力"},{"start":8097.091,"end":8111.527,"text":"那我們是不是也要去質疑說65歲甚至80歲以上的長者他們的思想固化固定的政黨傾向他們其實也不具備足夠的思考能力可以去投票那我們台灣的有資格投票的人是不是要降低到剩下二分之以下"},{"start":8113.052,"end":8129.46,"text":"法律社會已經定義說18歲他是一個完全行為能力人了已經要盡他們該盡的義務了但是他卻不能為自己所支持的政策去選擇這是一個權利義務的不對等再說一次難道18、19歲這個年齡層的人他就是四等公民嗎"},{"start":8131.089,"end":8153.03,"text":"今天的公聽會剛剛大家應該或許或多或少有一些共識我們可以透過修法來去落實18歲公民權剛剛有學者說要再回到修憲那青年基本法已經通過說18歲就是要有投票權那這個要不要也去修憲要不要也去釋憲內政部所提出來的這個公聽會報告也說要去釋憲"},{"start":8154.051,"end":8168.138,"text":"那我就覺得很奇怪那我們今天討論這個修法公聽會到底是要到底是要以選罷法來落實這個18歲公民權還是還是其實我們只是走個形式要去解釋憲法還是要回到修憲委員會那我們這樣子討論其實根本沒有意義"},{"start":8169.398,"end":8193.836,"text":"對我們這個世代來講真正重要的其實不是程序的結果而是18歲的青年朋友到底能不能決定這個社會要走向什麼樣的未來如果什麼法案遇到爭議連18歲公民權眾藍綠白都支持的法案都有爭議都要憲法法庭的話那我們的行政跟立法院其實也可以廢除我們就以後都用憲法法庭來制定法律就好啦所以"},{"start":8194.827,"end":8220.032,"text":"一個已經被要求承擔責任的世代他不應該被排除在政策或是政治的選擇之外如果我們都認同說18歲他其實是具備獨立思考的能力如果我們也都可以理解我們不是什麼事情都一定要由大人來幫我們決定那今天的公聽會其實很明顯我們應該都是要支持這個修法就是要用修法的方式來落實18歲公民權的"},{"start":8222.281,"end":8238.515,"text":"不要再讓18歲的青年朋友被剝削做次等公民請大家一起來支持這一次的18歲公民權修法我是台灣青年台灣新文化青年協會的共同發起人陳鼎楚我支持18歲公民權修法 謝謝好 我們下一位要請詹雅琳委員發言我們委員發言時間5分鐘"},{"start":8254.026,"end":8271.678,"text":"好 謝謝主席好 那我先剛剛聽到那個前面陳庭楚發起人的一個對於公聽會的一個疑問就是我們今天為什麼辦公聽會那我先說明一下我的立場所以我是在我基本上在青年基本法第20條裡面我也自己就寫得非常清楚那我也提出了相關的修法版本"},{"start":8272.538,"end":8296.46,"text":"那為什麼我還是會認為之前我在質詢的時候還是希望主席可以來召開這個公聽會喔最主要就是說因為其實這個民間的學者最近年來我們已經看到很多的學者提出來認為說其實不需要透過修憲喔包含林彥祖老師、林佳和老師、胡柏諺老師、嚴絕恩老師、林明熙等等的學者都認為其實是可以透過選罷法但是也還是有一些憲法學者提出了不同的看法"},{"start":8296.92,"end":8316.068,"text":"所以這就是為什麼我們今天需要透過公聽會來凝聚大家更多的共識因為我想畢竟這個想法上面大家也許可以透過討論可以有更多的啟發也許我們可以凝聚更多的共識之後我們就可以推動這個相關的選罷法的部分"},{"start":8317.148,"end":8345.674,"text":"那我想我的立場其實非常簡單為什麼我會在選報方面提出這件事情基本上我也是支持18歲就應該要有投票權想有最完整的公民權為什麼呢因為其實18歲的學生年輕人來說他們已經承擔了太多的責任了他們已經要負刑事責任要納稅甚至男性已經要服兵役了等於國家已經認為他可以承擔責任了可是在決定投票的時候卻剝奪他的權利"},{"start":8347.174,"end":8358.463,"text":"卻不能夠決定國家的方向我認為這是完全非常荒謬的一件事情那特別是說我們來看許多國家的國際的一個民主國家包含美國、英國、日本"},{"start":8359.772,"end":8379.458,"text":"韓國德國他們的投票年紀都已經是18歲了可是台灣卻還是20歲我認為我們這個我們一直講我們是這個年輕的民主國家但是我們的這個體制上面似乎還是相對落後所以我覺得這是一個關鍵的問題我們到底要不要跟上世界"},{"start":8380.278,"end":8393.005,"text":"那更重要的是我也非常認同前面發起人講的就是說這是個世代正義的問題啊因為今天不管是教育制度也好房價問題也好勞動政策等等等等其實受影響最深的就是這些年輕人"},{"start":8394.71,"end":8415.755,"text":"接下來國家的人口老化要承擔所有的經濟發展勞動力的還有未來的長照等等的社會福利的稅收都是這些年輕人可是這些年輕人沒有投票權我認為受影響的人卻沒有辦法參與決策這是非常不公平的一件事情"},{"start":8417.284,"end":8438.771,"text":"特別是說2022年的修憲案我們也非常清楚的從結果看到18歲公民權的同意票是多於不同意票的所以其實並不是人民反對啦而是相對的一個修憲門檻可能真的是太高了所以我們是不是能夠在現行的法治狀況之下前進一步呢"},{"start":8440.792,"end":8450.48,"text":"我也認為就是說憲法的確是有一些限制但是憲法是不是也可以被解釋例如第130條也可以被理解成至少在20月稅前要給予投票權"},{"start":8457.626,"end":8485.669,"text":"所以他也可以提早給啊對不對那他也是其實就是在擴張他的基本權利嘛所以我認為憲法的解釋不應該只有停留在當年的歷史背景而應該要透過歷史體系還有目的來做一個整體的判斷所以我想今天的這個討論我這邊應該是做一個發言了嘛我想大家應該都有今天都有充分的表達那我的立場還是最重要的一件事情就是18歲公民權不是給我們的年輕人特權"},{"start":8486.73,"end":8493.992,"text":"而是當國家要求他負起責任的時候也應該要給他的權相對的權利這才是一個全責相當的制度 謝謝好 登記發言的專家學者委員肉依發言完畢請問我們的內政部中學會法務部有機關回應說明內政部請問我們吳政次"},{"start":8521.266,"end":8538.964,"text":"謝謝主席以及各位學者那這邊有兩點那第一個還是非常感謝今天所有出席的委員還有我們的各位學者專家的發言那有關18歲公民權的相關建議如果立院這邊有具修憲及修法共識我們內政部會員者來尊重"},{"start":8539.685,"end":8558.179,"text":"那第二點那就是有關被選舉權的年齡那是不是要調降及如何調降的問題那剛剛也聽到各位學者的一些相關的意見那這個部分還是要在審酌我們各民選公使人員的部分因為相關的職位還有層級職責那我們建議也可以參酌各方的意見來再跟續辦理以上請問中選委有要回應嗎沒有好其他機關"},{"start":8569.363,"end":8575,"text":"沒有 那請問各位與會的專家學者有要二輪發言的有補充發言嗎"},{"start":8576.593,"end":8599.035,"text":"如果沒有的話那就感謝各位專家學者提供保衛意見所有初列席人員的發言與提供的書面資料除刊登公報之外我們會另外製作公聽會報告送交本院全體委員及所有初列席人員參考再次感謝大家各位的參與謝謝大家今天的公聽會到此結束現在散會"}]}},{"id":"168715","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168715","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5880b40c5769f15496abc7e570e3f363685f3e6e8cff854f2050ed7b2b649bff2541df1b7df3cd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葛如鈞","委員發言時間":"10:45:55 - 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謝謝主席有請陳珠瑋請陳珠瑋"},{"start":21.763,"end":45.08,"text":"謝謝我們最專業的主委這個河岸會這次專報為了我國海域放射性物質監測執行現況以及未來因應的作為本席看了一下過去的相關記錄從結果來看索性都在可以控制的範圍裡面沒有嚴重超標的情況然而在檢測的次數跟預算上本席是有一些疑問"},{"start":46.541,"end":71.443,"text":"這張圖表是近年這個生物實驗室的這個檢測量以及預決算數可以看到這三年檢測的件數跟花費的金額以國研院的數據來看可以看到這三年檢測的件數大概是六七百件前兩年平均大概是690那今年的目標呢756件只多了66件9.5%的增加跟平均比起來"},{"start":72.023,"end":97.066,"text":"但前兩年的預算平均下來每年是652萬那今年呢卻大幅增加到1424萬是218%的提升足足兩倍有餘所以只多檢測了9.5%相對於平均可是呢預算卻增加了兩倍218%本席不是反對要增加檢測的預算但是河南會如果評估今年的風險特別高"},{"start":97.466,"end":119.092,"text":"要增加次數當然沒問題但現在的情況看起來會讓人有點不是很確定說事情沒有多做那麼多但是錢卻多拿那麼多想請問一下主委今年這樣子的預算大幅增加減身目標值卻比去年只平均增加一滴滴到底是什麼原因這方面我們請張組長回答是 簡短回答好"},{"start":121.033,"end":136.456,"text":"觀光委員因為生物穿我們是採兩個階段因為穿的性質它會有無積穿跟有積穿那兩個的一個檢測方法是不一樣的那我們現在是為了檢測的實效性所以我們第一階段是用檢測無積穿如果無積穿有異常的我們就會進一步檢測那因為整個來講"},{"start":143.698,"end":165.134,"text":"有那個有機穿的只有在國園院所以國園院的一個預算會比較多但是增加了幾件有機穿的部分增加了幾件目前我們的有機穿過去多少件然後現在增加了多少件量倍嗎應該是說過去我們的一個檢測無機穿大概都是在標準的一個範圍您是說哪一個比較高"},{"start":167.155,"end":182.591,"text":"無積穿是第一階段比較好測有積穿的價格比較高所以我現在問的是有積穿的之前的件數跟你現在編了預算多兩倍的件數有沒有多兩倍檢測的次數因為我們現在是在有積穿是在"},{"start":188.937,"end":203.534,"text":"做一些養殖試驗然後生整個身體的單件我知道謝謝柯普很棒但我們在盯我們是要監督啦所以一些細節麻煩會後提供給我們不然這個預算我們看起來會我們尊重但是目前不理解好不好我想"},{"start":203.854,"end":225.329,"text":"旁邊有一些官員也有點搖頭所以我想我們來確認一下那我也想說這個我們真的是很支持核安會的預算從一開始第一天來到這裡就是這樣那本席上次有跟主委提到就是SMR的研究經費不足那至今這個我們還在幫你們爭取他說現在只有國園院一億元的計畫"},{"start":227.23,"end":247.987,"text":"那我想主委這麼專業一定知道美國是多少億?1000億法國是多少億?360億韓國67億即便我們還幫你們加上了國科會審查當中的中長程計畫116到119也才10億平均一年下來之後可能再變成2.5億完全遠遠落後國據啊我們剛剛看到的是韓國67法國360"},{"start":250.615,"end":274.062,"text":"美國1000 那我們不要去比美國好了 加大業大我們比韓國可以吧 67億啊請問主委 這些國家是傻子嗎 還是他們遇到騙子還是說台灣未來不需要電 主委你可不可以跟我們分享一下就是說我們現在正在做明年預算 概算嘛請問主委 明年在SMR到底要編列多少"},{"start":276.799,"end":299.447,"text":"我們今年是1億,明年是4年,1加4年的計畫,加上SMR,加上Micro Reactor,就是MMR所以這個計畫裡面編了10億,希望一年平均有2.5億的預算能夠進來但是國科還在審查中,不見得能夠完全照這個數目合給我們現在2.5億都不一定全能夠拿到"},{"start":300.507,"end":320.441,"text":"那這個民眾聽了很緊張啊覺得說這個預算的編列是部會的職權行政院有機會要執行我們的總統相關的方向結果我們現在一年用2.5億要來打發賴總統的新式核能的計畫我想這樣我們是不是有點對不起他的說法"},{"start":322.615,"end":337.08,"text":"這個我們是不是幫國客會幫我們核安會支持一下嘛這個那我們也鼓勵說核安會我們能不能再編這個再討論一下不然這個比較起來好像台灣不需要電我想"},{"start":337.881,"end":350.898,"text":"因為我們非常多國外的專家來看覺得台灣是不是不需要電啊但是大家都非常緊張報告委員主要是SMR的時程在國際上尤其是西方世界應該五年以後才有機會三轉"},{"start":354.142,"end":374.298,"text":"這個資料是你們提供的喔就是美國是一千億法國三百六十億韓國六十七億那我們說人家還很久啦讓人家跑就好了我們晚一點這個不是科學研究的邏輯吧那我們所有科學研究國科會所有科學研究都暫停了別人做完了成熟了我們不用投入了我們再來做可以這樣嗎"},{"start":376.343,"end":397.939,"text":"同意這樣的說法嗎 不同意吧 不會同意吧 科學跟技術是這樣的說法嗎我們希望維持一個基本的量能啦 不只要基本啦 我想台灣的 我們台積電的等級我們世界科技的中心 我們總統的名字裡面有AI 新式核能研發也可以運用AI啊"},{"start":398.539,"end":414.193,"text":"對不對我看你很點頭嘛所以我想啦這個我們希望一起來努力那我們也希望國歌會不只要這個要全額通過甚至國歌會是不是可以再多加支持但是河岸會自己也要多加爭取主委能不能多加爭取"},{"start":416.008,"end":423.792,"text":"主委是非常努力 帶著我到這裡這個數量的誠意我覺得大家也會覺得沒有凸顯出我們賴總統的決策這樣我覺得好像賴總統已經講了結果我們的行政機關好像在打發他沒有這個意思吧"},{"start":441.431,"end":445.625,"text":"我做球給你們你們要說沒有這個意思還是其實是在打發他"},{"start":447.932,"end":475.049,"text":"我覺得先生這方面很支持這方面的研究好 支持我們就多一些好不好那我想我們來看一下不只是我們剛剛提到的啦人才也很重要那河南會近三年人才培育相關的經費我們剛剛已經講了我們賴總統也喊了 心事何能在很多場合裡都提到但裡面呢預算竟然還有逐年減少的情況哇 我們缺電我們需要更新的技術啊 我們不要去了解它"},{"start":475.709,"end":497.82,"text":"我不只我編列預算跟人家沒辦法比我甚至呢我科普教育我給你少一點是怎麼樣讓大家都不要知道有心事核能讓大家都不要知道SMR嗎這樣跟得上國際的做法嗎我想這個希望主委啊該花的錢要花該做的事要做隨著全球各國的狀況我覺得這個我不用放給您看啦對吧"},{"start":498.94,"end":510.748,"text":"八成韓國人挺核能啊目標2028年還要啟用兩座新的日本今年1月20號已經重啟全球最大核電廠2月要正式商轉所以我想"},{"start":511.701,"end":531.146,"text":"國安會如果未來評估風險增加或者新的研究要加大大家都會支持啊因為這大家一起努力能源的安全我們的永續這個是跨黨派的這沒有政治的意識責任所以我想主管不要害怕該編的就編好不好可以嗎"},{"start":532.686,"end":552.998,"text":"那隨著科技發展我想國際對我們的這個能源重視真的很重要啦民眾都非常希望要有選擇不要只是口號那關於核電重啟的計畫核安會必須審過兩份台電提交的報告是再運轉計畫跟自主安檢報告那上個月底呢台電已經將再運轉的計畫送到核安會那準備的會議也在4月1號召開這個我們看到了"},{"start":558.381,"end":574.527,"text":"據本席了解目前審查委員的意見我們問同仁跟我們說已經收集完畢了可是剛剛有委員問你又說還沒收集到這個羅生門誰說的是真的到底審查委員的意見收集完畢了沒"},{"start":576.145,"end":597.899,"text":"跟委員說明我們已經收集 可是我們要彙整我說收集完畢了沒 我這話講得很清楚吧收到了沒收到了 還要再進行彙整那就很清楚嘛 那也許剛剛主委口誤啦那我們不能一個國會有兩個國安會的說法嘛那請問主委啦 這些意見就是說你們彙整"},{"start":599.24,"end":613.288,"text":"收集完畢但還在彙整意見那彙整意見要告知台電嗎那什麼時候打算預計告知總不能一年十年一百年嗎有沒有時間那彙整完之後大概下個禮拜就會正式發案給台電公司"},{"start":614.048,"end":631.725,"text":"下個禮拜很好我想這個時間就是要抓緊那這個流程有可能還要往復但是很可能還是要抓緊那請和安會密切掌握審查過程裡面產生的一些相關的說法不要讓有心人士有操縱跟影響審查的空間"},{"start":632.586,"end":660.882,"text":"那除了再運轉計畫還有自主安全報告要繳交因為我們很重視核能安全嘛所以我們有非常完整的這個做法那經濟部表示要最快2027年中才能提交核安會但是我們本來法規辦法都講了三檢項目可以分階段送本席在上次詢答也都跟各位確認過了那主委去年跟本席回答說會跟台電密切溝通啊現在溝通的怎麼樣有沒有收到任何一項報告因為可以分次嘛"},{"start":661.522,"end":686.655,"text":"有沒有任何一項報告跟我說明喔到目前為止也只有再運轉計畫那台電公司內部還在進行自主安全檢查所以自主安全報告目前分批送是零啦對不對 零啦那這怎麼推薦進度啊那台電現在是打算多久之後要送一年 一年半 十年 一百年有沒有 他們有沒有意願要分階段送"},{"start":687.595,"end":704.213,"text":"目前就我們所了解他們已經開始在進行現在已經一年半很快就過完了啦那我們是提議啦是不是和安徽還是要主導一個這樣子的一些會議啦那主動的積極的去增加互動好不好那不能一直等等"},{"start":704.773,"end":722.291,"text":"一年半過完了再來十年半再來一百年我想這不是這樣我們台灣真的很不一樣我們跟各國可能也都不一樣我們要加緊努力啦那上次本席也詢問過主委被降級三級機關有沒有影響上次啊主委很誠懇的說調為二級單位對國際交流"},{"start":724.133,"end":748.213,"text":"人才培育跨部會整合有幫助這你們的報告裡面寫的寫得非常完整升格以後可以落實國際原子能總署的報告當中提到強化安全管制機關職能之精神這你們寫的我非常感謝你們把這樣的一個狀態提出來那目前人種的同仁也在請人種的同仁好不好請人種的同仁"},{"start":750.643,"end":764.426,"text":"那這個先問主委您跟卓院長任總反映過升格的事了嗎目前討論的結果怎麼樣我想所有委員跨黨派都很關心因為這也是您自己的報告內容"},{"start":765.834,"end":789.985,"text":"反映過了嗎?這方面呢,我的理解是目前還涉及很多行政院組織法方面的並不是修改一項法律就會解決的所以組織法的事跟卓院長沒有關係就是組織升格,沒關係啦沒提過我希望您提,因為我們大家一起來提好不好那任總也在,我請問任總對核安會升級二級機關的態度是什麼?"},{"start":791.806,"end":810.192,"text":"我想這個文字我不用朗讀給您聽管制機關必須要有足夠的權限還要跨領域相關的才能確保核能安全你不讓他提升成績他沒有辦法確保核能安全我們在這裡所有跨黨派的委員我們都要關心請教任總"},{"start":811.423,"end":839.73,"text":"是 報告委員我們人種的部分是因為審查和安慰是在12年的時候改制那改制的過程裡面它其實是雖然是調整為三級但是它其實是從那個三級的部分變成獨立機關的角色所以依照它的相關的法規的授權跟它的專業性的審查不會因為它的層級性而影響到它的專業的提升"},{"start":841.03,"end":861.799,"text":"那現在到底是幾級機關目前就是三級的獨立機關對啊 我在跟你講三級 你說三級獨立機關他的權責就比二級機關更大嗎 更好嗎他可以做到 他有更多足夠的權限嗎報告委員 那個他的權限主要還是來自於法規授權他專業審查的那個能力他有沒有跨部會溝通協調的能力"},{"start":863.56,"end":879.265,"text":"還是有啊他有辦法請台電趕快提交嗎他原則上他是受台電提交來做審查啦沒關係任總這個同仁齁我理解大家都很辛苦啦我希望任總不要去挑戰國際原子能總署的相關報告"},{"start":880.385,"end":899.186,"text":"也不要低估我們組委、我們核安會所做出來的報告的因應的期盼,國人的因應期盼,不要用這種什麼法規的文字面的東西,具體事實就是職能不足啦,需要提升。那我們運動部就有空間可以提升,為什麼核安會沒有?"},{"start":900.207,"end":919.725,"text":"所以我想不要去玩文字遊戲希望任總可以好好的思考跟賴總統 卓榮泰 院長一起表態既然要重返核能是不是讓核安會重返二級機關這點也希望任總的同仁帶回去跟任市長討論有沒有可以調整的地方一個月內給本席一個回應可以嗎"},{"start":921.328,"end":948.631,"text":"是好一個月內那我想另外啦我想這個科技的發展我們就是要進步啦我們也要民主我們也要進步啦那我們剛剛提到的是這個這個這個核安會嘛那不要遇到科技人種好像都在卡我相信不是這樣的意思之前我們也問我們在教育委員會故宮的數位資訊室要升格為數位資訊處人事長也表示很支持啊後來研議做後續會議研議的結果怎麼樣了"},{"start":949.432,"end":973.041,"text":"可以請回去了解一下在這個月月底前把結果告知本席辦公室可以嗎謝謝報告這個人事長是有同意的有有那個是在業務質詢的時候委員的提出所以月底前結果告知本席可以嗎好我們回去轉達謝謝另外在金管會我們現在這個虛擬資產服務法也即將要上路本席的版本在條文中有明定金管會應設專責單位人員人數要依其業務增減來調整"},{"start":977.023,"end":998.784,"text":"接下來虛擬資產服務法可能會排審,我真的是希望人種啊,不只是我們剛剛提到的虛擬資產,不只是我們剛剛提到的故宮的這個數位的要轉,轉成處,還有我們最重要的核能的能源的安全,不要因為卡在什麼樣的文字上的原因,一定要提供給核安會足夠的權限,"},{"start":1000.105,"end":1022.956,"text":"專業的能力和什麼財務還有人力資源他才有辦法獨立行使職權嘛你講說他很獨立很棒他沒有人沒有權沒有錢你要叫他怎麼保護我們的核能安全這個同意嗎這個人種的同仁同意嗎沒有權沒有錢沒有權沒有人怎麼有辦法保障我們的核能安全這個同意嗎"},{"start":1024.036,"end":1039.599,"text":"呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃"}]}},{"id":"168714","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168714","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5880b40c5769f1649e2bfcc752544ef38d440c98c629e74f2050ed7b2b649bda828a474ca019315ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王育敏","委員發言時間":"10:46:12 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我們有請部長有請王部長王委員好部長好 部長我要請問你碳費的問題我們碳費5月正式開徵那今年的碳費收入你們預估是45億對不對那原來你的預估其實是要年增60億那這短少的15億將近25%到底是為什麼"},{"start":33.246,"end":44.394,"text":"因為其實每年要看企業申報的量那我是不是請我們署長來報告對 你可不可以讓大家知道說你這短差的15億為什麼跟原來預期的目標少了25%"},{"start":46.25,"end":63.03,"text":"我們碳費的目的其實是要求是在減量所以在制度設計上有兩種優惠費率一個是用標竿的方式那如果企業提自主減量計畫他會用試用100元的費率另外一個是對其國際以科學減量基礎的SBI"},{"start":63.632,"end":80.732,"text":"那很嚴格那他就適用50元的費率那原先我們在估的時候我們是估大概可能沒有到這個九成會提自主減量計劃那也沒有那麼高的適用這個50元的費率可是當去年整個制度正式上路之後"},{"start":81.152,"end":95.588,"text":"其實有超過九成的這些工廠它是提了自主減量計畫而且有六十幾個廠它提的是用五十元的費率所以也造成整個估算可以收到的是四十五億"},{"start":96.209,"end":107.859,"text":"好就是因為九成的企業提了自主減量計劃所以導致這個收益少了15億嘛低於你原來的估算那所以我們要檢討的就是你的這個企業自主減量計劃到底有沒有真的達到"},{"start":114.364,"end":118.926,"text":"企業減碳的效果你這個減量計畫是不是企業說了算了因為現在環團有指出來你現在的企業自主減量計畫現在有三大的缺失我們可以來討論一下就是說你到底你的嚴謹度怎麼樣第一個就是他其實並沒有設定出中長期的這個"},{"start":136.274,"end":160.865,"text":"減量的目標那減量的路徑也缺乏科學依據跟數據的支撐他的執行成效難以量化評估這個是第一個第二個他缺乏透明監督的機制也就是企業自主減量計畫他缺乏內部查核機制跟第三方的驗證規劃資訊揭露不夠即使透明難以確保"},{"start":164.606,"end":184.781,"text":"減量數據的真實性第三個缺失是他欠缺具體減量的措施因為這個環團指出來就是計畫這個是過於籠統沒有明確列出他的設備更新因為設備更新也是非常的重要能源轉型或者是製程改良的技術細節與預計投入的成本"},{"start":187.603,"end":192.169,"text":"就是這三大缺失我要就教部長你自己有看到這樣一個問題嗎因為原本在國際上面他對於這個碳費的徵收他一個有效的工具是他可以逐步去調高他的碳費"},{"start":203.704,"end":222.775,"text":"碳費的調升是一個有效的工具但是你們環境部已經講了我們不採取碳費的調升我不曉得是現在不調升還是未來都不會調升你採取的是企業自主減量計畫但是你的自主減量計畫如果是如此的鬆散企業說了算"},{"start":224.375,"end":245.064,"text":"這個跟你未來預計要達到的成效恐怕會出現很大的落差部長你自己有看到這個問題嗎好包委喔這個我在產業界待過很吃到這個情形我不認為這是你說的三個缺失因為第一個有沒有減量目標他必須承諾2030年有沒有達得到這是白紙黑字他達不到就要回到300塊的減量的額度所以具體目標是一定要做的"},{"start":245.444,"end":265.323,"text":"那透明監督呢這個計畫我們經過大家一起溝通能夠開放的就開放全世界對於這種探聽價台灣算是開放的最多的你不能所有的企業他做了什麼樣的小事情有些是跟他的這個敵對對手的競爭力是有關的那他其實該放的我們就會放你放在哪裡"},{"start":266.796,"end":287.371,"text":"網站上面啊都有公告嘛都有公告都有公告在你的碳費專區都有公告出來是沒錯沒錯那第三個呢簡單說是他一定要列那列金融專家審查審議過這是由本部聘請的專家審議過才能夠確定那審議的內容有沒有包括環團指出來的設備更新能源轉型或製程改良的技術細節當然這個有沒有這麼的詳細"},{"start":288.792,"end":309.838,"text":"我從來很相信基本上我跟委員報告這個對我來說這個是一個企業運轉的機密我們會掌握到企業運轉的機密我都要求他們要簽這種所謂的保密的原則來做這個事因為這個如果說某一家敵對的對手知道對方做什麼事這個會影響到競爭力的所以不能夠所有都公開因為這裡面有一些企業營運的機密在裡面"},{"start":310.998,"end":316.28,"text":"我們當然不要求公開但是我覺得部長你好像輕忽了這樣的一個現象當有九成的企業他要採取的是自主減量然後你們也選擇退讓你們不要調升碳費的時候你真的覺得你這樣的一個碳費你現在的收價的制度未來跟國際可以接軌嗎你未來有調升的能力嗎還是說遇到企業一反彈的時候事實上環境部就是退讓"},{"start":339.23,"end":359.426,"text":"包委員這個不是像你這樣講的深不深是要看我們目前執行的狀況今年五月才會收到第一筆的碳費那你什麼時候再評估要不要調升我們基本上今年說完之後我們可能明年可以來討論明年後年的這個事情所以你是會每年去檢討的還是你現在政策是傾向就是不會調升"},{"start":360.126,"end":384.742,"text":"基本上這個會是因為當時這個決定碳費的時候有一個目標要調整的目標但是我們後來在執行的時候也發現說這樣的透過一個國家訂成一個價錢這是不符合市場機制的所以我們更傾向用這個ETS總量管制的排放交易這樣的做法新制度來的做法能夠把企業真實的碳定價反映到成本上面這是我們期待的做法"},{"start":385.512,"end":410.583,"text":"事實上台灣現在的做法因為我們剛上路喔那我看到的就是恐怕你環境部想要達到的目標很難達成喔因為你光是一年你的60億就達不到了喔那未來之前你們還預估說什麼百億喔我想這個應該是非常難喔不會不會委員你不能這樣說因為他企業願意撿的更多他要花更多的錢這是我們的目標不是我們收了很多的錢從企業上面拔毛不是這個樣子的"},{"start":411.343,"end":424.775,"text":"好部長這只是你的說辭啦齁那這個我已經看到你今年已經打了25%了啦就是你已經打折了跟你原來預估其實已經不一樣了未來這個其實也是看綠啦齁接下來我要講的是"},{"start":426.997,"end":443.488,"text":"接下來我要講的是你的這個一個是這個碳費不如你原來預期的成效第二個是你的碳封存這個也是環境部一個很重要的計畫你們設定了一個非常理想的目標2030年176萬噸2032年400萬噸2035年600萬噸這個目標非常的理想但是呢到目前為止今年"},{"start":456.736,"end":467.008,"text":"是零動工沒有任何一個廠就是有順利動工的那請問如果以現在是零的情況底下2030、2032、2035的這個目標可以達成嗎"},{"start":472.198,"end":484.151,"text":"其實本來碳補作後封存它就是需要一個比較長的時間去規劃跟建置而且也必須要當然啊所以我現在要問你的就是你今年一個廠址都沒有你2030會有176萬噸的這個碳封存喔"},{"start":488.235,"end":506.698,"text":"我們今年已經有核准通過中油公司的在苗栗鐵珍山的一個封存試驗計畫那它的目標是會存30萬噸那當然這是一個試驗計畫那另外這個碳補作後封存其實在2030年還會包括一個碳補作後的利用這個也都會算進來"},{"start":507.859,"end":528.104,"text":"所以你要在這邊掛保證2030年可以達到176萬噸的目標這個是旗艦計畫的目標我們會跟各部會共同努力那你現在要不要下修你的目標因為這個是跟著整個國家檢探系目標的這個其中的因為你說苗栗的這一個我們就來看今天忠友是不是也有代表來"},{"start":532.231,"end":550.626,"text":"來苗栗的這個計畫是中有負責的你說苗栗這個我們就來看一下就是苗栗現在的這個鐵砧山的計畫事實上苗栗已經2012年就有一個曾經有過一個計畫然後就是沒有辦法施行那現在2023年這個鐵砧山的計畫現在"},{"start":556.371,"end":569.365,"text":"中東景縣長呼籲中央為取得地方信任不得動工我請問一下這一個場址會動工嗎進度如何預計什麼時候完成"},{"start":572.108,"end":584.992,"text":"跟委員報告這個場址他目前封存的設施都已經做好了但是我們在經審查核准的時候也有很多的要求他必須要做各項的環境監測然後其實中油公司他有架設這個即時監測的這些資訊會跟當地居民來溝通那我們也要求中油公司在真正灌注之前還會再跟地方來辦理說明會"},{"start":595.056,"end":595.798,"text":"所以我們在審查當天其實苗栗縣政府也沒有同意我們在整個審查的這些意見"},{"start":603.931,"end":632.509,"text":"所以這個場址什麼時候就是可以開始運作已經沒有已經排除了地方的聲音了嗎當然這個都是要持續資訊公開透明而且要跟居民做溝通那因為他現在還有包括其他相關的法規的這些準備工作要去進行所以詳細的這個確定的時程還是要中油公司來做說明那中油公司要不要回答這個場址你預計什麼時候運作會不會胎死腹中又沒有辦法運作"},{"start":633.677,"end":646.757,"text":"澳委員這個依照計畫的部分是現在在走這個法規的一些行程如果法規的流程走完了才可以實質凍控但是剛剛環境部說明的部分硬體設備已經完成了"},{"start":647.148,"end":674.057,"text":"那你們原來的目標預計什麼時候完成可以實質的進行碳封存原來的目標因為有法規的這個是不是符合法規以及環評的問題所以這個你們沒有目標有有有原來設定應該是在去年或是今年應該有一個硬體設備完成這個是OK的但是運作的部分取決於法規是不是許可"},{"start":675.247,"end":700.26,"text":"好 這個就是我要講的到目前為止我們看到這個碳封存的計畫目標寫得非常的漂亮但是現在連這個官員的回答都不敢明確的回覆這樣子的一個是不是可以達到跟地方政府的溝通而且可以符合法規而且可以正式上路在這樣的情況底下我們設定的目標那根本就不可能達成"},{"start":701.54,"end":720.652,"text":"連一場到現在都沒有真正的完成我要提醒環境部的是減碳其實是重中之重當我們提到氣候變遷提到很多問題國際上唯一的目標就是要減碳那無論是我剛剛提到的碳費你的整個徵收你現在已經低於你原來的目標還有你"},{"start":722.233,"end":740.985,"text":"念茲在茲的碳封存你連封存廠現在的第一廠都沒有辦法完全的確定下來這個都是增加了很多這個不確定性因素而你原來的設定目標可能會往下降所以我要提醒環境部是所有計畫訂定不能只是"},{"start":741.806,"end":748.412,"text":"看起來很美好但是你是要實質去做的當你發現實質有些困難的時候就要回過頭來修正目標而且要不斷的去檢討怎麼樣才是最有效的措施你需要透過強力的執行就像今天部長你說現在是各部會各行其事未來還要有一個設立一個中心來做跨部會但這些都不能只是紙上談兵啊"},{"start":767.43,"end":791.876,"text":"這些真的要認真去推動各部會有配合的責任但是從環保署到環境部我覺得環境部在減碳這件事情上面你們責無旁貸你們就是主管機關你們要去要求其他單位無論怎樣就是要配合環境部相關的政策這樣子才是而不是遇到壓力的時候啊這個經濟部最大然後就退讓然後就回來就是在做修正"},{"start":792.297,"end":795.023,"text":"我希望環境部要有這樣的決心我們的減碳才會達到實質的成效謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168713","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168713","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5880b40c5769f1acba74d0a9604f2e2f15b2e00a8b249b4f2050ed7b2b649b94bd1da7f89406e15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"10:55:29 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那我先剛剛聽到那個前面陳庭楚發起人的一個對於公聽會的一個疑問就是我們今天為什麼辦公聽會那我先說明一下我的立場所以我是在我基本上在青年基本法第20條裡面我也自己就我寫得非常清楚那我也提出了相關的修法版本"},{"start":18.525,"end":42.43,"text":"那為什麼我還是會認為之前我在質詢的時候還是希望主席可以來召開這個公聽會喔最主要就是說因為其實這個民間的學者最近年來我們已經看到很多的學者提出來認為說其實不需要透過修憲喔包含林彥祖老師、林佳和老師、胡柏諺老師、嚴絕恩老師、林明熙等等的學者都認為其實是可以透過選罷法但是也還是有一些憲法學者提出了不同的看法"},{"start":43.39,"end":62.058,"text":"所以這就是為什麼我們今天需要透過公聽會來凝聚大家更多的共識因為我想畢竟這個想法上面大家也許可以透過討論可以有更多的啟發也許我們可以凝聚更多的共識之後我們就可以推動這個相關的選罷法的部分"},{"start":63.138,"end":91.104,"text":"那我想我的立場其實非常簡單為什麼我會在選報方面提出這件事情基本上我也是支持18歲就應該要有投票權享有最完整的公民權為什麼呢因為其實18歲的學生年輕人來說他們已經承擔了太多的責任了他們已經要負刑事責任要納稅甚至男性已經要服兵役了等於國家已經認為他可以承擔責任了可是在決定投票的時候卻剝奪他的權利"},{"start":93.164,"end":104.433,"text":"卻不能夠決定國家的方向我認為這是完全非常荒謬的一件事情那特別是說我們來看許多國家的國際的一個民主國家包含美國、英國、日本"},{"start":105.762,"end":125.428,"text":"韓國德國他們的投票年紀都已經是18歲了可是台灣卻還是20歲我認為我們這個我們一直講我們是這個年輕的民主國家但是我們的這個體制上面似乎還是相對落後所以我覺得這是一個關鍵的問題我們到底要不要跟上世界"},{"start":126.268,"end":139,"text":"那更重要的是我也非常認同前面發起人講的就是說這是個世代正義的問題啊因為今天不管是教育制度也好房價問題也好勞動政策等等等等其實受影響最深的就是這些年輕人"},{"start":140.7,"end":161.748,"text":"接下來國家的人口老化要承擔所有的經濟發展勞動力的還有未來的長照等等的社會福利的稅收都是這些年輕人可是這些年輕人沒有投票權我認為受影響的人卻沒有辦法參與決策這是非常不公平的一件事情"},{"start":163.274,"end":184.76,"text":"特別是說2022年的修憲案我們也非常清楚的從結果看到18歲公民權的同意票是多於不同意票的所以其實並不是人民反對啦而是相對的一個修憲門檻可能真的是太高了所以我們是不是能夠在現行的法治狀況之下前進一步呢"},{"start":186.781,"end":196.472,"text":"我也認為就是說憲法的確是有一些限制但是憲法是不是也可以被解釋例如第130條也可以被理解說至少在20月稅前要給予投票權"},{"start":203.619,"end":231.656,"text":"所以他也可以提早給啊 對不對那他也其實就是在擴張他的基本權利嘛所以我認為憲法的解釋不應該只有停留在當年的歷史背景而應該要透過歷史體系還有目的來做一個整體的判斷所以我想今天的這個討論我這邊應該是做一個發言了嘛我想大家應該都有今天都有充分的表達那我的立場還是最重要的一件事情就是18歲公民權不是給我們的年輕人特權"},{"start":232.717,"end":237.102,"text":"而是當國家要求他負起責任的時候也應該要給他相對的權利這才是一個權責相當的制度 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168726","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168726","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5880b40c5769f127a423fd6be62fcfa31e0b39ac3e37f84f2050ed7b2b649bb00dc349e71b59095ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"11:25:19 - 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我們先請主委好好 主委請"},{"start":10.027,"end":35.785,"text":"張偉好 主委好 主委也是軍人 那也是農民那其實今天我們做了一個決議那主要是跟我國的總統要出訪的時候受到中共的這種惡意的干擾那我必須要強調 這個中共每一分對我國外交的孤立我們就多一倍對我們國防的投入 被我們國防的投資這就是我們最好的一個繁殖的方式"},{"start":36.445,"end":65.834,"text":"如果他們不讓我們在外交上面走出去那我們就用國防上面來強力去建軍讓我們自己更有能力來對抗抵抗中共的各種的這種侵擾那第二個部分我要跟這個朱偉來談一下我們的農民的部分所以知道我們農民的平均年齡大概是幾歲嗎中位數或者是平均年齡有沒有相關的資訊大概的歲數就好了我們不用精準的數字"},{"start":72.641,"end":83.405,"text":"66歲農民的中位數也好 平均歲數也好66歲66歲左右 OK 好那66歲這個數字可能是平均但是其實我們可以發覺到在近年"},{"start":84.085,"end":103.618,"text":"那越來越多的退伍的軍人他的有年輕化的趨勢比如說在我國高中求學的階段的時候我們講到農民的時候都是講到農民伯伯阿公那種感覺都是八九十歲七八十歲那種印象其實不斷的在一年一年的年輕化這個狀況是應該是很明顯的應該沒有錯嘛"},{"start":106.36,"end":134.949,"text":"那也就是說這些未來從以前的老年的農民會走向壯年的農民甚至會變成中年的農民會越來越多所以未來他們再就業再投入在這個產業甚至是重回軍旅的可能性越來越高特別是在最近我們看到說在對這個軍中的這種職務上面的那個薪資的提高我已經有聽到至少在我們的辦公室我們在家裡的辦公室其實基本上都是"},{"start":135.869,"end":157.009,"text":"軍人退役的大概有快要到六成到七成都是在隔壁的憲民隊還沒有退役就準備要來我們這個辦公室那我們看到說這些這些同仁們他們也有跟我們強調到說發覺到說最近軍中的這種薪資越來的結構開始在調整之後他們也想要來回應我想請教一下"},{"start":158.474,"end":172.566,"text":"這個主委對未來怎麼樣規劃就是還是在中壯年假設他們要回應有沒有更大的這個招募的方式或者是專門針對這些農民讓他們有願意可不可以再回來或者是有什麼樣的機制讓他們繼續再對這個我們的國防效力"},{"start":179.19,"end":194.181,"text":"有關剛剛委員講的這部分是屬於國軍的再錄營的部分那再錄營現在很多的新的措施有一些是就是把連線增長比如說退伍的時候以前可能可以再錄營是在上位階以下"},{"start":194.881,"end":210.422,"text":"然後退伍多少?五年之內那現在又把時間增長退伍的階級也在研究是不是在記憶增長第二個部分我就繼續講下去不管是在國防部的還是這個退伍會我還是要強調就是說我們之前上一次的質詢都一直在說的是什麼"},{"start":210.842,"end":232.668,"text":"就是希望說未來我們從軍事上面退休的人員他不一定要去新自備的不一定要去跟農園公司相關的可以跟國防相關的那他們想要在陸是一個說法那可能不是你們直接的業務但是他們想要去國防的承包商也好就像美國的這些很多的在陸我為什麼要講這件事情最近我們有一個台裔的太空人來訪台灣"},{"start":234.349,"end":261.047,"text":"那如果我們仔細看NASA他的訓練的這個太空人來看的話他總共大概到去年左右大概總共訓練了大概到360多名的太空人其中有212位是有軍事背景的榮民所以說在這麼多尖端的這種科技裡面我們看得到榮民在美國的參議院跟眾議院我看到最新的一些相關的資訊眾議院裡面的榮民大概是有或者是說曾經服過軍役的有79名"},{"start":262.458,"end":286.138,"text":"在參議院有18名也就是在美國不管是在政治的這個最高的國會殿堂到這個宇宙到太空的這些太空相關的從業人士太空人都有非常大的比例也就是說如果我們把榮民他的這樣子未來的發展只把他定位成我退休保全或者是我退休就去新智北如果比較高階的降臨"},{"start":286.818,"end":315.36,"text":"那就是把我們自己的可能性做小了我要看到我們的預算是能夠發揮在把這些農民的潛力全力激發出來他們是已經超越天氣他們是到太空上我剛剛講到的是360多名的這個NASA選拔的太空裡面200多名有軍事背景有農民的經驗這還我們不是指示他們去做這個太空的任務而已包含他們在工程學的軍事背景之外他們有工程學的研究或者是在這種各種的"},{"start":316.221,"end":340.82,"text":"科學的那個能力都是在他們軍中培養出來的所以我一直在強調就是說我這次也是要強調說我們的預算裡面不是只有說哪一個農場或者是說哪一個天然氣的公司或者是說轉投資的哪一個電影的公司等等的這些沒有把他們原本的潛力發揮出來那如果他們可以超越天際他們可以到最高的國會殿堂我們那個比例是很高的耶美國的參議員100名"},{"start":342.369,"end":367.717,"text":"以內18位有軍事背景那快要到兩層了這個是很高的這個比例跟NASA也是一樣如果在工程 科學 政治他們都有這樣子的潛能的話我真的是希望說不要以後看到只是最後都是要嘛去保全要嘛就是去這個新自備的公司這個真的是會完全的把我們的可能性給降低那這個部分可不可以請這個主委來簡單回應一下"},{"start":371.557,"end":390.509,"text":"報告趙偉,我想趙偉指導的這個,主要就是能夠投入到國防工業這一塊,讓我們現在研製的軍民專長轉弦系統,我們可以把趙偉指導的關於國防的一些需求,軍工的需求這些專長,把它納進來,將來退下來的農民,"},{"start":393.931,"end":410.523,"text":"我們看看是給他哪些對 我再補充一下 不好意思因為我們看到很多退役的這些將官或者是校官後來有些可能去美國的或者是其他國家以色列也好 美國也好的這些公司來去協助他們"},{"start":411.744,"end":439.966,"text":"那對我來講我會覺得比較可惜的是說他們不必做協助的工作他們可以做主堡的工作他們可以自己再成為一個新創公司的工作那剛才你提到說平均年齡大概是66我看是平均是66沒錯但是每一年我相信會下降啦他的中位數一定是在甚至是四五十因為大家退伍的都早啦沒有升到將官的那些校級軍官 衛級軍官都退伍的都很早那我會覺得就像我剛才不要讓他們只這樣去保全"},{"start":441.038,"end":457.483,"text":"你有這些能力有這些潛力知道說軍中的這些缺的是什麼的話那培養他們做新創產業啊你有沒有這個培養的生態圈在美國有一個叫DEF就是翻成中文的話就是國防創新論壇"},{"start":459.944,"end":484.484,"text":"也是他們的這些退役之人他們自己做的這個國防創新論壇就是他們自己聚在一起來分享說我退役之後我去創了什麼樣的業哪些是跟國防相關的哪些是跟國防不直接相關的比方說我們剛剛講到的太空產業啊太空產業不是在國防外交委員會啊太空產業是在教文嘛 對那他們能不能參與 當然可以啊我們中科院的這些研究的東西能不能夠把它移轉出去"},{"start":485.745,"end":514.355,"text":"都是這些過去他們學習的東西明明就可以在民間上面發展那我在預算中看到的比較多的都是情理如意創新性少了一點那我自己也不是什麼創新的人物的我沒有我很難去完整的要求大家都應該怎麼做但是我是覺得說作為這過去你不管是在國安會也好在軍中也好我覺得是可以大膽一次來去做一些過去沒有做過的事情"},{"start":515.489,"end":541.474,"text":"因為我覺得最大的可惜就是大家怕犯錯嘛 怕被罵嘛就是有些露營的記者然後錄完一整天然後就 誒 陳品耶我忘記帶記憶卡為什麼你忘記帶記憶卡因為我怕被罵我們不要這樣我們就勇敢的去試試看因為我覺得現在我們都說要1.25兆裡面我們說要商購"},{"start":542.754,"end":570.625,"text":"我們商購偽製這個部分那不就是大家很好的這些過去的這些農民朋友們特別是有科學背景能力的人就是可以好好的發揮好不好這高階人才的運用我想我們下去中階人才中階人才基礎人才都一樣我是覺得高階人才在現在這個全AI的這個社會我不知道什麼是高階什麼是中階我認為只要是願意去參與的他就是人才"},{"start":572.906,"end":578.109,"text":"您剛講的我們中高階的相關有專業學有專精特別的高階的這種人才我們每半年其實都會跟國防部來協商叫他把這個名單取得以後我們會引導他進入就是相關的一個領域繼續延續他的一個在軍中所學"},{"start":595.76,"end":598.802,"text":"那現在我們在推的就是軍民專長轉弦您剛有提到我們其實現在將來明年1月1號甚至於5月我就可以把那個軍民專長軍中所學的我就可以運用到他投入相關的一個產業裡面我們已經在做這些事情甚至於執訓上面我們這幾年配合國家五大信賴的產業舉例來講其中就有軍工產業"},{"start":620.339,"end":629.886,"text":"次世代的通訊AI這些都是很重要的產業我們的執訓中心我們要求他都是朝這個方向去做培訓將來訓練完以後就投入相關的產業以上好 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換言之我們暫時可以解除警報了給國人安心對不對我們長期的監控而且具體的科學化的檢測都在做零件不合格大家可以相對放心解除一點點警報但是持續追蹤持續監測持續的科研是我們的立場好 下一頁"},{"start":209.381,"end":221.375,"text":"第三個驗收就是我們要善用跟台日既有的核能管制資訊交流MOU然後來爭取赴日第一個我當初的要求是第一手要拿到資訊第二個我們甚至要能夠籌組專家團去做而我累積追蹤到現在"},{"start":228.123,"end":256.348,"text":"你们也都有照本席的建议要求至少完成了六次复日实地的访查而不是只依赖他们提供的资讯第二个呢我们定期的视讯会议二十几次持续都在做这个部分我也给你们肯定好吗这个也是验收通过持续进行下一页那最后就是这个当初在说这个寒川沸水大家搞得很恐慌但事实上呢我们反而遗漏了"},{"start":257.148,"end":278.903,"text":"在离我们最近的台湾海峡这一侧因为寒川沸水会往花莲那一边因为那个潮汐那个黑潮的关系所以说在我们大台湾跟中国大陆沿海核电厂分布这么的密集反而对于中国沿岸核电厂排放物对台湾的影响是更严重的"},{"start":279.503,"end":296.997,"text":"我一直在提出這個警訊跟要求那solution是什麼呢我看到你們要提出一個116年到119年跨部會的國家海域放射性物質污染監控任性網就可以一件理由all in one既可以監測福島寒川廢水又可以更來補強"},{"start":304.182,"end":331.37,"text":"中國沿岸核電廠放射性物質排放是不是這個計畫這個韌性網就在做這個事是的 如委員所述那預算呢那我們現在在爭取那期望的一個總預算是大概是一個6億不過省政院這邊還在審議中所以說現在要審很遺憾現在才在審去年要審的預算那現在在編明年的概算會編入明年的嗎"},{"start":332.51,"end":349.516,"text":"我們來爭取全力爭取好嗎不能再等好嗎我們也會一起來跟行政部門來要求跟倡議我希望今年明年再審審查明年預算的時候我們可以看到這一筆好嗎我們會跨黨派來支持好繼續加油好下一個驗收"},{"start":352.718,"end":358.868,"text":"這裡國研院要請教日本當初東京電力公司他是針對不同的魚種進行這個養殖的這個實驗比木魚鮑魚海藻等等所以說他除了監測海流之外也做了這種"},{"start":368.301,"end":394.006,"text":"養殖的實驗證實用川水去養殖就對了那證實結果川並不會於生物體內累積所以對於生物的健康沒有顯著的影響當時我在問這件事情的時候你們告訴我國研院自己也在進行用黃錫雕來試驗現在是不是在進行中要不要增加實驗的物種要不要持續的增加實驗的時間"},{"start":396.161,"end":409.948,"text":"這些呢是 報告委員現階段會把這個黃錫雕的檢驗整個把它做完原來就包括黃錫雕龍鬚燦九孔刀白蝦做完以後看下一個計畫如果下一期計畫"},{"start":411.129,"end":426.732,"text":"要繼續做這個國家願意繼續投入我們會增加我也支持跟倡議要繼續做增加實驗的物種我覺得這是兩個保護傘兩道防線一個是監測寒川廢水的這個排放物"},{"start":427.253,"end":428.694,"text":"很多在野党的委员在说核能很便宜"},{"start":457.393,"end":464.801,"text":"核能是真的那麼便宜的嗎主委你剛剛的回答我是大有意見你以他的發電的收費來看"},{"start":468.226,"end":496.097,"text":"我們對於核能的投資對於工程設備的更新尤其現在廚藝的核電廠要再啟用還有要對於採購燃料棒還有對於他的賠償風險你都不提耶你都不提耶我們作為一個政策的倡議者你是核安會的主委你可以輕率的回答說對核電比較安全我再給你一次機會"},{"start":500.41,"end":508.368,"text":"喝电不是零风险所以风险是有代价的风险也需要"},{"start":510.815,"end":529.592,"text":"你不能用核電的發電的幾塊錢一度一塊多比這個其他的人這個燃煤還便宜來簡化這個問題啊我用具體的數字來說你知道福島核電廠發生複合式的災害之後日本政府投入多少錢賠償嗎"},{"start":532.179,"end":552.552,"text":"我跟大家講我要跟公民社會講福島核電廠發生我們不幸的災難事件我們不願意看到它發生日本政府已經投入光賠償金10兆日元如果加上賠償金跟清理後續的廠的收拾是花費了22兆日元"},{"start":553.493,"end":575.681,"text":"最終這件事情還沒有結束喔最終會解決這整個福島核電衍生的善後最終的花費可能會到35兆至80兆日元我取它的中間值就是大概55兆日元等於11兆台幣光一個核電廠出現了安全的問題"},{"start":577.23,"end":598.508,"text":"他投入11兆台币现在还在收拾是4年的台湾国家政府总预算你告诉我核电很便宜你告诉我这些设备设施风险的代价不用计算吗主委我实在不能接受问题不能这么简化"},{"start":599.522,"end":618.228,"text":"委員他在垂尋他會從某一個切點切入可是我們在看待政策是要全面的我甚至我剛舉日本的例子我可以舉美國的例子啊跟核三廠類似的美國加州的魔鬼谷核電廠你們應當常常會提到這個案例吧"},{"start":619.108,"end":643.72,"text":"他對於整個攤提的成本設備的更新燃料的添購他的發電核電一度要到4塊台幣如果把攤提算進去絕對不是簡單說核電光講發電一度一塊多是廉價的是便宜的我認為我們講政策要講清楚要講全面"},{"start":645.101,"end":672.612,"text":"委員只看到其一你必須縱觀好嗎核電的風險跟安全的代價也是國家要pay for it台灣人民要pay for it這個事情我要在這裡正式的來澄清說清楚不要只看到核電的好處而它的好處也不是只有比較便宜這一項而你遺漏了它可能造成的風險"},{"start":674.033,"end":696.102,"text":"安全是無價的安全是無價的安全是無價的但即便如此我們二次的能源轉型我們要做的是能源的多元化核電只是其一核電不是唯一而核電還包括新式核能的開發不是只有舊核電的老路所以我確實"},{"start":697.603,"end":723.418,"text":"我也肯定政府正在做能源多元化的整体评估重启核电要过了安全这一关要有核废可以解决的这一关还有社会的共识要具足所以核电只是其一并非唯一这是我在这里要再次强调我刚回答是根据台电的说法这不是核安会的立场"},{"start":724.198,"end":728.408,"text":"那你的說法會被剪成影片去放你知道嗎我剛剛說的說不出裁店的"},{"start":731.283,"end":751.537,"text":"所以那您最後一樣主席站起來了最後給您10秒鐘核電真的是如此的廉價不需要去思考它的安全風險嗎您再回答一次我們核安會事實上只關心的是核電的安全經濟上是不是有效率就讓它們由台電來評估所以發言請注意發言請嚴謹好嗎好 謝謝加油辛苦了謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168724","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168724","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5880b40c5769f1be08e913ac5052da63812774c6aab6af4f2050ed7b2b649b9b6e307be05129615ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳超明","委員發言時間":"11:13:55 - 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以前最乾淨的現在面臨很大的困難在好不好 今年狀況比較那你今年的稅稅預算一共變了1480億那一般支出裡面451億"},{"start":111.315,"end":117.801,"text":"增加了112.73億 占所有我們算這個30.71那公共建設508.68億你們已經增淚了127.28億占所有預算的34.36那你科技發展"},{"start":137.075,"end":163.184,"text":"17億佔所有比例將近35增累了大概114億我現在跟你來檢討一下在一般知識裡面第一個你的報告波比石油基金辦理自載家電的效率升級加入屋頂設備的太陽光電的家事計畫還有科技儲存的補治還有商業服務的節能設施"},{"start":165.453,"end":179.091,"text":"我要跟你檢討一個問題家電的補助你們是補助給冷氣電冰箱對不對那個是家戶也有企業的部分你自宅家電嘛我看你的預算已經變成要一二十年"},{"start":183.298,"end":203.814,"text":"每一年都在騙 每一年都要花這些錢那你的冷氣 你的冰箱裡面包括可能要電視你那幾十年內 它有發電條大概應該可以要絕世了因為我講這句話家戶的部分今年是最後一年"},{"start":205.995,"end":219.783,"text":"我自己提醒 不能幾十年一直在補助啦兩區區的改善 冰箱的改善大概已經到了極致了啦該換的已經有換的差不多啦今年最後一年大家都滿意些"},{"start":221.164,"end":245.237,"text":"再來啊你家戶屋頂我看到這世界很不公平台北六都的大樓林立啊你們現在都找非六都的話家戶型的用電我跟你講那個大樓用電的是他們最多的結果我看大樓都沒有在做太陽能如果大樓不做太陽能就把它搓碎來補治其他的地方"},{"start":245.857,"end":273.767,"text":"所以新的建築物只要超過一千平方公尺的部分它就要強制性的應該把都市那邊好好加強啊那麼多的大王在台電很高興啊這個家戶屋頂設施到底現在誰在管理你又看到SWIFT基金是忠祐在管理還是台電在管理還是能念書"},{"start":276.168,"end":282.431,"text":"我看到那個戰爭在打的時候,把電廠也打,氮化廠也打,所以家庭那個太陽能力這個實在在戰爭的時候會發揮很大的功效,再來"},{"start":298.277,"end":317.775,"text":"你裡面有一個純潤的計畫辦理國家藥物潤潤的準備計畫這是要到底做什麼這個是衛福部管的怎麼會跑到你政治部來因為它是產業端藥廠的部分就是有關於那個學民藥的部分我們還是要有一些準備"},{"start":318.536,"end":347.706,"text":"我是準備要戰爭萬一戰爭來了我看到日本都在準備戰爭來了你跟我講老實話是不是因為怕戰爭來的時候這藥物的運氣你在推動因為所有因為藥物事實上這個是重中之重啦就是說生活上的重中之重那是衛福部你今天不拿這樣來這今天也不會做我不會反對我只是問你的目的在哪裡啦"},{"start":348.727,"end":361.444,"text":"對 就是說增強我們這個生產製造廠商你們經濟部哪一個在那邊出版應該是產業署吧產業署本來就要產業署的對 它是一個產業再來"},{"start":363.406,"end":371.896,"text":"一般支持的預算就這幾個我請教再來公共建設預算你們一共變了508億佔了34.36這個比例非常高增加了127億我這台要請教水利市長"},{"start":385.513,"end":395.586,"text":"你坐在那邊涼涼的啊我一直在追問我天花壺水庫你怎麼沒有編列預算你給我苗栗答應下來啦"},{"start":397.145,"end":424.016,"text":"報告委員這個天旺水庫其實我們已經送到行政院他正在審議中好 請軍區部長沒有人敢做水庫只有苗栗敢做好不好行政院也非常支持這個方案因為計畫要先過才可以變好我相信我們部長你從國會會到現在你很會做計畫我相信沒有問題的我了解剛剛談到苗栗的即將移裡面"},{"start":425.456,"end":449.229,"text":"霍隆的地區我也沒有想到煙那麼嚴重,這次很特別,我告訴你我在後面有那個在排到海的地方啊有一條水溝一直沒有辦法解決,沒有人要認那一條把它放大整個大概它排水量會失去那我想到這些問題你們應該在海邊那個水位要做自紅池"},{"start":450.819,"end":474.031,"text":"苗栗的竹籃為什麼沒有淹得很厲害?因為我煮起了一個珠黃色,噢!這次大家就感冒耳淚了,真的講所以那個不要想著說怎樣,你在那邊海邊的土地非常的便宜去把它支,去把它買,做大的珠黃子,大水一來沖到那邊就把它留在那邊,就會消化得很快"},{"start":475.624,"end":488.704,"text":"這是我的經驗我喉嚨頭暈的地區啊當然我曉得橋樑太低很多木頭這樣塞置那些塞置是造成這樣的影響那我為什麼會談"},{"start":490.12,"end":513.367,"text":"你們的新竹海水淡化還有台南的海水淡化他們的海水跟海水相同海水都幾百億,幾百億下去那不是長久之道我當時很多人跟我講這個是虧本累累的但是你一直來拜託說那是乾旱的期間其實你都用自容詞"},{"start":515.356,"end":517.1,"text":"一定可以解决这些问题"},{"start":521.587,"end":548.428,"text":"所以你把效益算給我看你們到底要只用賺錢還是準備虧錢在等還是當初為了做這種有人請你們特別設計這種我現在就懷疑那你看這是伊朗跟以色列的戰爭淡水場是伊朗打以色列的第一個目標啊我們都要隨時準備未來的應用變化發展啊"},{"start":549.246,"end":570.813,"text":"報告委員 是不是這樣有關於那個治水下游做自動死的部分我找時間再來看看委員這邊指導方向我們會把那裡打進來我跟你講 講真的沒水沒水大水來不難打到你們蓋的那麼多其實那個非常重要海邊的土地又便宜啊 討好休息的蓋邊會去找委員這邊再來了解"},{"start":573.581,"end":589.064,"text":"那我再來談好請回座你的公共建設裡面有設立一個全國循環專期試點及新材料循環產業延期一共60億這個準備打算做什麼"},{"start":589.645,"end":617.358,"text":"這次是大臨埔遷村大臨埔遷村高雄的那個大臨埔要遷村你還用大臨埔我以為你又有心了這個是大臨埔遷村要把那個地方改為這樣南部人有福氣的我們北部尤其苗栗都沒有人照顧我才會問這個問題我告訴你開始問一下好不好還要講地方創新今年編的七千五百萬"},{"start":622.292,"end":634.776,"text":"7500萬綠缺的地方創生共好的是要做什麼這個是配合配合三千的不是國發會他有一個這個地方創生的一個計畫那我們配合他有針對你剛才講這個"},{"start":637.818,"end":652.53,"text":"這個我曉得 如果是配合的可以啦如果真的說地方創新太少啦我是很老實的講你國化會地方創新是只要你們的任務再來科技發展的預算請回座那個孫長你科技發展變成157億一共增加114億比例將近"},{"start":664.983,"end":692.995,"text":"算所有預算的35%我不反對而且我是全力的支持因為這個世界很競爭高科技很競爭但是一定要選擇未來的項目要有關鍵性的產力我們才全力的去發展部長那現在我剛才要問請教的是依據產業技術發展需要及仇日前瞻技術應用這個真的很重要"},{"start":694.093,"end":716.336,"text":"我那天看了一個新聞上一次日本來偷我們台積電的數量它叫做東京威力科創公司這個是日本的台積電現在日本政府要做二耐米已經要投資100億美金給這家公司"},{"start":718.038,"end":731.798,"text":"你們都不敢發聲他敢做二萊米一定有拿到我們的關鍵性的機制國家對日本自我投資100億美金發展二萊米而且準備很快就要量產"},{"start":733.573,"end":748.449,"text":"我以前一直跟你們講 不會啦我們台積電就問了啦他那個機是沒有辦法成報委員他那個是Rapidus是他們日本本身的技術啦過去應該是從iPad過來的技術"},{"start":750.491,"end":769.518,"text":"世界的競爭啊你不要講他說不然他怎麼要來這邊你們不要踢他某事啊 多了一本人你們卡著弄起來我跟你講這一下子投資100億但是他是我們的競爭對手沒有錯好不好我是覺得你們保護台灣不是這樣保護愛台灣不是這樣愛台灣"},{"start":773.78,"end":791.607,"text":"人家的技術盡量就不要吃雞 只有我們台灣一直在做焦慮做焦慮可以 技術要完全掌握在首領 是的 是的 是的 好不好再來 這個我看不懂你在中小及新創企業的科技裡面 增熱了1.25億"},{"start":794.048,"end":809.887,"text":"主要是去大南方智慧雨林產業推動辦公室我看不懂,可能學運太差,什麼叫做智慧雨林你問我什麼叫做智慧雨林,還要大南方的智慧雨林,你告訴我"},{"start":811.269,"end":813.371,"text":"南部的中小企業比較困難"},{"start":831.889,"end":857.992,"text":"那我們桃園新澤、桃園不講我們的新竹、苗栗、台中不講彰化、南投我們也是地方的中小企業也比較困難捐贏還比南部還困難你們現在整個都到南部去了你要不要跟我中南部設中部還是北部中間設一個你這名字寫得很好聽智慧與靈"},{"start":859.073,"end":860.196,"text":"我不知道乙甲磷沒有什麼本性為什麼叫做智慧乙磷"},{"start":864.676,"end":889.17,"text":"智慧雨林的意思是希望我們現在要強調中小企業的數位轉型也希望盡量不管再富裕再智能生產要智能化還有幾個不會遛都的你們要多多照顧啦他們台南高雄都是遛都內好不好中小為這個多元振興方案齁大家這個100億裡面事實上是全台灣是一起做的啦各位其實"},{"start":892.085,"end":904.019,"text":"升級福島還有科技裝難還有中小企業這個我們都會全力支持但是地方發展要給它平衡一下然後一下子就好了我一般用的補治款裡面"},{"start":905.41,"end":920.626,"text":"我一直強調的一點,無知來水地區大概我當議法委員的期間,我非常注重這一塊但是我今年看到你們編的無知來水地區供水改善的計畫第五期,才4.53億"},{"start":922.668,"end":946.46,"text":"啊 尖尖之水 那不夠的事啦 自來水很重要啦我那時都叫你們要編個五十億才能真正的解決問題啊它分成兩個部分 一個是 台水公司它是嚴管的部分那補助這個無自來水的地區啊比如說它可能是簡易自來水啦 或是什麼補助地方政府"},{"start":948.065,"end":968.809,"text":"來實施的這些部分我還有很多地方想回答一下今年是21.2億啦你剛才看到4.53億那個是我們補助這個地方政府的一個潛力自來水跟很多的...這個是補助給地方政府的?對對對那我這裡21.2億這樣我勉強可以接受好好處理這一塊啦部長"},{"start":976.95,"end":998.035,"text":"這個是得民心的一塊啦現在對於自來水非常重視好 謝謝阿 市長我這次淹水苗栗的好好解決想一些新的辦法你在中間把它結一段製紡紙哪邊弄一個製紡紙出來那水就不容易淹了啦想法要改變要創新 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168723","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168723","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5880b40c5769f1d387b17e6096a74ff38d440c98c629e74f2050ed7b2b649b74820286dcf404f75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃秀芳","委員發言時間":"11:12:31 - 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我們請部長 有請彭部長黃委員好 部長好 部長我今天想要就我們的這個廚餘的部分 就是請教我們部長那我們每一天生產的這個廚餘 差不多2115公噸那其中有四分之一就是來自於學校的這個營養午餐那我想請教就是說"},{"start":30.588,"end":57.587,"text":"我看到你們二月份的時候也有特別提到就是說希望就是這個廚餘能夠減量嘛那最主要可能就是要從源頭控管那我想請教部長就是說其實學校的這個營養午餐不只是這個可能就是一些邊角料啊或者是菜葉啊或者是我們中餐吃的學生吃完之後剩餘的這些"},{"start":58.607,"end":67.511,"text":"這些廚餘那這樣子看到這樣每日生產這麼多的這個廚餘確實我會覺得說這個一方面覺得有點浪費那另外一方面覺得說這個學校的營養午餐可能不好吃不然怎麼會有剩這麼多的廚餘我想請教部長你有跟教育部針對這個廚餘的部分有做過討論嗎"},{"start":85.539,"end":113.653,"text":"這個部分從發生豬瘟一開始的時候我就跟教育部提醒就是說這個東西一定要好好處理要從源頭減量來做那甚至我也到荷蘭去想要引進這個新的方法Fusion的方法等於是從食物的源頭開始去做減量那當然教育部也都一直積極配合要去宣導要去做不過因為最近發生一件就是各個縣市都是爭相喊說營養午餐免費那營養午餐免費的話那就是各縣市政府"},{"start":114.073,"end":135.565,"text":"自己要去負擔廚餘的費用所以這個變成說這個情勢這個局勢就變成是地方政府他要去好好處理廚餘的事因為以後他自己地方政府就要編廚餘的經費在裡面我是覺得是說地方政府會願意去編營養午餐免費但是絕對讓大家不知道的是處理廚餘是要很高的費用所以我們也擔心這個問題"},{"start":136.585,"end":158.224,"text":"後面廚餘的這個費用其實應該是蠻高的啦很高我舉一個例子就是說我們彰化縣的這個免費的這個營養午餐可能就是縣府這邊編預算嘛那如果說給外包的這個就是外包餐盒的這一種國小一餐是50塊那國中是一餐是55塊"},{"start":159.305,"end":167.229,"text":"那如果是自己有廚房的話可能就更便宜啦那我們看到就是說每日生產的這些廚餘那這些外包的這個餐盒這些廠商他還要去處理這些廚餘以前可能還有把這些廚餘交給"},{"start":177.153,"end":185.495,"text":"這個去餵豬所以會有人進來收到學校來收這些廚餘所以對這些這個廠商來講其實不是一個負擔那現在這個廚餘不能養豬之後那確實會造成這些廠商他可能從這個營養午餐的這個費用50塊這個一餐50塊可能搞不好有5塊錢就是要來處理廚餘"},{"start":200.979,"end":214.647,"text":"所以我希望就是說部長針對這一部分這個是一個很嚴重的問題那我希望就是說部長跟教育部這邊真的要好好的去思考一下你剛剛講的從源頭去控管"},{"start":216.165,"end":237.094,"text":"圓頭控管那我覺得除了你跟教育部之外那我覺得跟這個衛福部這邊也有很大的也要去考慮就是說每一天這個我們的孩子們吃的這些營養午餐那除了營養之外也要美味也要可口美味要不然其實他會覺得不好吃不好吃就不想吃就丟掉了就倒掉了所以我覺得應該是要三方就是這個衛福部"},{"start":242.256,"end":263.706,"text":"然後我們環境部然後教育部大家去共同討論一方面兼顧孩子的這個營養好熱量營養兼顧之後那也要好吃那後續的這個各縣市在推動的這些營養午餐免費其實我覺得這個這個未來會成為一個很大的一個問題因為這些這些廠商他為了可能因為"},{"start":265.567,"end":278.241,"text":"價格就是這樣子然後要漲也不太可能所以他可能就從這個孩子們每天中午吃的這些食材可能這個食材可能會變得比較不好我覺得這個可能未來會有這樣的一個問題謝謝委員 事實上我們也發現這個問題"},{"start":282.305,"end":297.046,"text":"我們跟教育部是在規則規定上面會做好但是現在隨著這個所有的這個團散營養午餐全部變得地方政府在出錢那他們是有比較多的統籌分配館來做這個事可是他沒有編這個廚餘的費用"},{"start":298.348,"end":319.496,"text":"所以這個是現在我們覺得因為過去教育部可以強力的介入現在變成地方出這個錢那教育部的力道也明顯變少了所以我們的確現在跟教育部正在討論這個問題怎麼解決因為這個似乎以後都是地方政府的責任那我們如何來幫忙他現在我們的著力點的確空間比較少那我們正在想辦法"},{"start":320.236,"end":338.696,"text":"好 那如果廚餘從這個變成這個從這些包商他們自己要去處理的話這個團散業者他們要自己處理他就會從這個營養午餐的食材可能就會縮水或者是品質就不是那麼好所以現在有很多他們發現說像加工的食品越來越多是"},{"start":339.056,"end":363.631,"text":"加工的食品越來越多啊這個都不是我們樂見的啦所以我希望說環境部應該就學校的這個廚餘越來越多的這個部分應該要好好的跟各縣市以前可能教育部有辦法去介入那現在如果這個力道沒辦法那麼大的話那應該就是邀請我們各縣市來一起為了我們這個學校的這個廚餘每日生產出來的這些廚餘要怎麼去"},{"start":365.892,"end":384.751,"text":"處置我覺得這個應該是拜託我們環境部這邊真的要去好好的去做一個規劃去做一個處理那我昨天也看到就是說那個台中市的這個這個這個廚餘廢水直接倒到這個水溝裡面去就我"},{"start":386.578,"end":402.786,"text":"我就不知道到底是哪裡出問題了就連自己環保局的這個垃圾車他的廚餘水都可以直接把它倒到這個廢水溝倒到這個水溝那其他的呢這是看得到的民眾有檢舉了那看不到的部分呢以前"},{"start":404.026,"end":422.055,"text":"真的我說廚餘這個部分真的是非常嚴重為什麼因為以前我們垃圾車來當然就是說他會分這個廚餘桶那你有廚餘的話他就會要求就是要倒到那個廚餘桶嘛那現在你就一整包有的就直接一整包就直接丟到那個垃圾車裡面去啊那這個未來也會影響到我們的那個焚化爐的那個壽命"},{"start":427.578,"end":442.968,"text":"所以我覺得這個處理真的真的真的非常的嚴重所以我真的要拜託那個環境部真的針對這部分要好好處理那另外就是說我們也看到最近這幾天在彰化的部分有一些是"},{"start":443.708,"end":461.023,"text":"厨余还是有在去养猪那这些厨余很多大部分都来自于台中市台中市的厨余可能餐厅也多所以很大部分的厨余这些被抓到的厨余养猪的养猪户"},{"start":461.443,"end":487.031,"text":"他還是從台中這邊載過來所以我覺得這部分真的環境部要跟各縣市要好好去溝通廚餘要怎麼去處理如果全部丟到這個焚化爐的話那確實會造成焚化爐這個說明會減短那如果沒有的話你們到底跟各縣市要怎麼合作好好的把這些廚餘不是亂丟不是亂倒是真的有一個正常的管道去處理"},{"start":487.671,"end":509.141,"text":"是跟委員報告目前看起來我們在到今年度結束之後會全部禁止廚餘養豬大概有300噸的處理量的缺口不過到116年年底之前全部都會平衡那目前各縣市積極在做這個處理不管是這個"},{"start":510.922,"end":528.269,"text":"等於是做肥料化或其他的能源化的設施都不斷在進行那另外委員所關心的台中這件事情我們有跟台中確實了解過是一個個案它的去處沒有問題那可能是個人的操作的問題那這部分我們還在加強各縣市政府的一個要求以上"},{"start":529.429,"end":553.036,"text":"所以你覺得說目前處理廚餘的這個量是夠的然後也沒有問題你的意思是這樣子嗎現在就是說還是要進去焚化爐那我們是希望說把這個量一直逐步的往下降因為現在設施不夠所以我們現在每兩個禮拜行政院跟我們都有在開檢討記者會檢討的會議因為這個部分要地方政府要如實的達成"},{"start":554.036,"end":581.04,"text":"不然的話就會造成一個區域的問題所以我們希望地方政府我們會嚴格的去鼓勵他們督導他們希望趕快把這個廚藥處理的量能夠趕快提升起來其實這個也會造成偷盜的問題就是說沒有人看到的地方或者深山裡面廚藥就亂倒或是垃圾亂倒這種都會造成這樣的一個狀況所以我希望就是說環境部針對這部分真的要好好再去跟各縣市去溝通一下"},{"start":581.36,"end":606.984,"text":"有 我們都一直 這兩個禮拜都會開一次會討論這個事情好 那部長請坐 因為我看到今天農糧署有人過來我是不是可以請農糧署嗯 農糧署沒人過來農糧署那個檢 呃 董珍檢安急診沒有沒有有有有有好好"},{"start":617.062,"end":635.062,"text":"我希望就是說農糧署在最近因為是我們那個荔枝荔枝這個開花結果的的時候那因為這個氣候的關係所以在中部地區尤其彰化南投這部分"},{"start":635.562,"end":660.369,"text":"它的荔枝開花不是那麼的理想那會造成這個結果結果就不好所以在前幾天地方的公所縣市政府都有邀請就是到現場去看那也發現說目前的這個結果確實是比往年還差所以我希望就是說農糧署針對這一部分"},{"start":662.31,"end":678.074,"text":"就是說我們果樹荔枝結果果樹造成它的可能在這個到七八月要採果的時候可能狀況不好的時候我希望就是說你們針對這部分要去密切的去觀察然後去如果真的確實是有這個災害的話應該也要啟動"},{"start":681.835,"end":708.912,"text":"這個補助天然災害的補助我們一直都有在包括委員我們一直都有在針對因為都有跟地方的代表或者是地方政府都一直在現看跟農民現看那現在他開花狀況確實如委員所講的他的狀況沒有像往年那麼好但是常常開花都是起起落落但是我們就持續的去關注他然後等到如果說真的結果狀況不好的時候我們會依照規範然後去看他們如果是災害"},{"start":709.612,"end":724.479,"text":"就是農業災害的時候我們就會給予適當的給予用所以是差不多幾月是五月份的時候嗎看他的結果的狀況要等到他真的有結果的狀況才能夠實際的去去"},{"start":727.11,"end":737.923,"text":"測量跟調查調查完我們一定會照做的我們一直以來都會做這件事我也希望你今天來之後應該也要跟這個署裡面去做一個回報就是說確實在地方這個荔枝"},{"start":741.847,"end":761.11,"text":"開花的這個狀況不好 因為可能乾旱 可能二三月那時候乾旱的關係所以造成這個開花不好 那未來結果應該也會不好所以如果說在這個五月份狀況還沒有改善的話 應該在五月份 五月初的時候應該要啟動天然災害的一個補助 好不好好的 好 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楊秋瑩發言 邀請主委請主委"},{"start":9.83,"end":29.495,"text":"主委好 辛苦了我們來討論醫療人員的議題首先我要發言之前要先給我們所有農民醫院的院長所帶領的團隊要謝謝他們因為我們農民醫院的確為國家付出很多的貢獻這個貢獻是他們用體力"},{"start":32.696,"end":54.661,"text":"用家庭的時間去換取的因為我們唯一一個最優良的就是不能拒絕病人這一點是本人非常非常的感謝所以我們來看到因為護理人力的一個短缺跟這個官傳的壓力但是現在我們各個農民總醫院都是逆勢而行而且大成功"},{"start":56.221,"end":74.35,"text":"那所以呢我就以我在中部地區台中籠總台中籠總的部分呢去年他們招募的護理人員是這個總共有560人他的一個報道率是6成多他的流子率是9成5"},{"start":75.782,"end":90.356,"text":"留職率 留任率能夠九成五這不簡單那當然中榮比較好的就是他找得到地方像北榮 高雄榮總 屏東他們也希望我們有這個托兒所托兒所將近有220個小朋友"},{"start":91.471,"end":113.102,"text":"還是不足但是至少有這個量體那這樣子整個的配套能夠讓這些從業人員能夠安心下來這非常重要但是每一年這一屆院長還是很緊張他們還要到大專院校去去護理學校去招募比如說像我們的鐘榮他去年560人今年他至少要有400個人"},{"start":115.074,"end":135.566,"text":"這樣子才能夠穩住這一些不缺的就像北龍也不缺那大家一起努力來做那當然各自醫院有各自的保守啦有他自己的方法我就以中龍來講他自主的排班這一點我很贊同因為我經常在這裡了解"},{"start":136.735,"end":153.737,"text":"病房的部分他能夠由資深的護理師他們自己來調整哇這個對他們的家庭來講是幫助很大每一家醫院都有每一家醫院他們的方法所以如果你看留職率就知道留任率是九成五以上這個了不得"},{"start":154.338,"end":181.244,"text":"但是各個醫院必須自負盈虧啊他還是要想辦法現在我們有一個問題我要率先請主委我們自己龍總自己來做也就是比如說中榮他們一天的這個出院的人那麼多出院之後護理師必須要去做銜接尤其長照的居家的這個3.0居家照護的那這些護理師還不算在我們的這一些喔那在這樣情況之下"},{"start":183.174,"end":196.23,"text":"未來這個角度這個角色是越來越重以中榮來講我們現在離醫院的要去協助他的只有4個護理師啊那雖然我們有2628個護理人員啊"},{"start":200.182,"end":216.634,"text":"但是這個部分呢4個那另外呢居家的部分我們12個這是兩不得的因為衛福部還沒有在做基金的一個協助所以我提出的這個問題也就是長照機構現在大家重視在集中度"},{"start":217.575,"end":235.232,"text":"的這個部分但是我們知道龍總醫院跟其他的醫院私人院所也好跟台大他們比較不相同的是我們的年齡層平均值病患會高一點而且我們越來越長壽所以居家照護的部分是必要的"},{"start":236.053,"end":259.389,"text":"所以像最近那個他們四個也希望給副院長這邊再申請兩個都要准他們願意做都了不得了雖然你要多付一點成本但是這個是衛福部主委這是衛福部現在在整個長照機構裡頭的護理師人員的銜接在居家他還沒有在做這一塊的津貼補助"},{"start":260.68,"end":289.31,"text":"所以本期我個人認為主委我們可以率先來做你的醫療作業基金可以協助給我們的這個這個個院我們來做一個sample做一個範本讓衛福部也加緊腳步來做啊這樣子整個才能夠銜接上來啊要不然他離院之後他也沒有人好好的去告訴他那整個只有做半套個人認為這是不夠的主委你的看法呢"},{"start":290.29,"end":316.906,"text":"謝謝委員的指導對我們總院的各項的肯定我們各總院其實都是朝向友善職場包含委員剛剛講的這些護理師他的工作的量怎麼樣去調節我想各總院都會針對剛剛委員所指導的他們會再針對居家或長道這塊再做一個你率先來做你支持他們你不是只有嘴巴支持他們絕對支持你預算要支持他們"},{"start":318.887,"end":338.08,"text":"因為這個小錢但是是給我們在第一線的護理人員是最大的一個鼓勵也給病患的家屬啊他很安心那你也會跑比這個衛福部還更快長照室那邊還要更快當然不是說比誰快慢啦而是說社會的面向已經必須"},{"start":339.221,"end":351.969,"text":"因為我在博士班的時候我非常的重視這一塊我覺得我們可以率先來做可以嗎 主委同意那你們好好地去研擬那接下來我還要講各大醫院裡頭最傷腦筋的是什麼停車場"},{"start":354.232,"end":383.2,"text":"停車格 停車格 中隆還率先有一個趴車的趴車的 是全國第一個嘛 是不是啊那第一個 可是只能趴多少人趴五十台 趴一百台 趴車的付一百塊 就趴那問題是量體不夠啊所以在這個中隆啊 我要給主委說明中隆旁邊有一塊戲庭9 停車場9你要全力專案支持它"},{"start":384.332,"end":406.727,"text":"因為呢 市院的土地啊 可是它黏在旁邊 它是停車場解決停車的問題 唯一解決停車的問題因為你現在的量體 不到五分之一啊所以我今天進入到院區來 我轉了 欸 你給我收的是停車費耶可是我轉了 我繞了一個鐘頭 還找不到一個車位那這個一個鐘頭要不要算錢啊 當然算錢啦"},{"start":407.367,"end":429.827,"text":"可是消費者說我又沒停車啊 我引擎一直在動啊 我一直在找停車格啊所以從根源來解決 中隆的西停九在這旁邊因為它現在第三醫療中心 又少了兩百個停車格那我們更傷腦筋啊 每一個選民啊 不夠啊我轉了一個多鐘頭跑進去診間的時候 我又跳號了"},{"start":431.168,"end":454.314,"text":"又過號了那怎麼辦呢所以我們也你說的友善環境啊針對於中隆停車格我相信北隆也一樣啊高雄隆總也一樣啊屏東也一樣啊因為它已經有專案有這個案子我請主委來專案來支持好不容易可以找到這個土地但是要錢一定要解決這個問題共同開發是不是成立一個專案"},{"start":456.613,"end":484.843,"text":"我們會全力協助中榮全力協助嘛好好來做這個一定可以真正的去紓解因為再不然我們職子中心起來那個第三醫療中心又起來我缺的停車場停車格更多更多都打結了好不好全力協助中榮專案來協助嘛好謝謝那這個請院長都請回那最後一個議題也就是我們非常非常努力的一個事情"},{"start":485.836,"end":503.477,"text":"你們在4月9號開始農民照護數位轉型平台本人非常贊成我個人非常贊成你整合了整個醫療端服務端你的個案端還有家屬端的資料透過APP來進行跨域的一個共管這個非常好整個醫療的一個"},{"start":504.778,"end":532.965,"text":"保健照護服務以及健康的一個檢查資料進一步能夠去把這些風險預測模型這個非常的讚所以本席要請教我們過去現在你這個政策就是說以前是被動式的被動式的來照顧現在是主動的來照顧那在這樣子一個情況之下你的整合照顧我所稱的目的就是要依照合一是不是"},{"start":533.945,"end":556.29,"text":"主委 依照合一就是讓我們的人民病患 農民可以安心嘛 這很重要所以主委 你們目前的建制情況究竟是如何因為你4月9號宣布 那麼你們的KPI到底是怎麼樣你有沒有去計算 你如果這個政策下去 你預估你可以降低多少的就醫次數跟醫療的這個成本"},{"start":558.514,"end":579.031,"text":"這個系統我們準備今年七月它是一個啟動的一個元年七月正式啟動在七月之前我們的系統剛剛委員講的四個系統已經完成了這裡面四個端已經完成了現在各容服務處是執行單位服務照顧十九個住宿遍佈全台灣"},{"start":579.751,"end":603.424,"text":"所以他們是執行單位那麼他們要自己驗證那這裡面驗證我跟他們指導最重要就是你的照顧端照顧的人力夠不夠因為每一個孤獨老可能服務對象都不同這個非常重要都不同所以這些照顧的照顧網夠不夠盡量多像零拖員啊里長啊或者是送餐啊或者是社工都要夠所以照顧員盡量去擴充"},{"start":605.385,"end":619.021,"text":"那醫療端比較單純就是總院總院的醫生或是各款師是這樣子這段時間到七月之前都要做這件事情希望盡量擴充把這個量能做到最大然後我們七月份就開始要做全面的推動"},{"start":619.878,"end":645.566,"text":"所以我們目前就是建制四端已經建制完成現在在做農耗以及人力的一個統合那醫院院所當然是沒問題我們就全力來支持所以我個人還要請你做一件事情也就是我們有一個政策之後呢那你的KPI必須要出來陳如剛剛本席所說的你預估我這麼做我多久時間我應該可以達到"},{"start":648.107,"end":657.13,"text":"怎麼樣的這個就醫的次數可以怎麼樣減少那醫療成本大概可以減少多少我覺得這個從源頭來做是效果非常的好"},{"start":660.053,"end":684.925,"text":"高雄市起伏比較早我們以高雄市來做了前面第一劑的一個檢討做了之後跟第一劑做了之後跟去年去比較他是就診服務隊上去門診的次數是有減少因為依照合一次數減少那醫療的資源也比之前要節省這兩個效果已經有出來了但是我是請我們各容服處"},{"start":685.805,"end":687.87,"text":"全面的再做一交叉的驗證交叉再提出你的KPI目標出來是有效果的謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168730","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168730","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5880b40c5769f125c7d58fadf8fd0fa31e0b39ac3e37f84f2050ed7b2b649b2bfe832c71c1a02f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王義川","委員發言時間":"11:36:12 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謝謝昭偉 我們請主委 謝謝我們請主委"},{"start":12.596,"end":37.244,"text":"主委這個退伍會的工作很辛苦我看你們的預算很少很少增加的也不多不過有幾個課題請教一下第一個在你們預算的第144頁有一個叫做訪查大陸地區高額遺產繼承人就是說我們的榮民可能他就"},{"start":39.202,"end":63.219,"text":"死亡過後遺產超過一百萬那我們必須派人到中國去確認他的繼承人的這些狀況我們一定要派人去,沒有別的方式可以來處理這件事情同樣的因為也有一些是這個榮民他就後來不管是生病什麼樣的因素他就住在中國了"},{"start":64.69,"end":87.017,"text":"我們還要派人去確認我們沒有別的方法可以確認這一位就是我們的榮民然後他現在還也許生病臥病在床透過視訊透過各種各式各樣的方法總比我們還要派一個人去找到他這些費用都不高啦但是沒有其他的方法可以處理"},{"start":89.895,"end":115.582,"text":"那委員所關心的現在大陸救養龍是現在目前一百一十五年是一百零一個人數已經減少了當初三百多個那從一百一十三年陸委會有發布橙色燈號就大陸地區他不是很安全健康會有問題所以我們就沒有去這些人都沒有去沒有去我們採取指紋驗證指紋驗證來查"},{"start":118.883,"end":143.194,"text":"那這些人當初都在我們榮家來救養所以各榮家每一季也會做一些電話的一些查訪可是你們有編要去的錢啊?是,這些錢都沒有,我們連累都繳回都繳回有編都沒有?原來編了51萬去探訪的對因為就是跟委員報,113年開始以後就沒有再去了就沒有再去了所以這些錢都繳回"},{"start":143.854,"end":170.769,"text":"但是預算還是編在那邊預算編到就繳回因為如果橙色燈號有變化的話跟你還是要去所以現在是橙色燈號我們就不去所以不去是但是還是留著留著到年底就會繳回那這些錢不能用別的方式就讓你們在驗證的過程中那邊的成本會增加然後就直接把這個拿掉困難在哪裡我們都會繳回我知道我說那邊這筆的目的是什麼可以嗎"},{"start":171.977,"end":192.828,"text":"老委員我是救養處業管,那有關這個我們訪視是很重要的一環,那現在101位在大陸,我們在108年前我們有持續做這個工作。我知道透過視訊也可以嘛,因為農家的人這些輔導的人一定認識那一位老伯伯農民嘛,那就確定是他嘛。"},{"start":193.448,"end":213.664,"text":"大家視訊一下就好啦 人去人去我們試圖有這樣做 那現在因為大陸地區這個資安管控的問題所以我們以電話聯繫的方式 跟指紋驗證來執行所以這是剛剛主委講到基本上這些費用沒有使用啦好 OK 第二個就是"},{"start":214.858,"end":231.046,"text":"我看你們榮民榮眷的健康保險的保費是增加的,可是為什麼你們親含就學的補助費用是降低?親含的就學、子女的就學的補助是降低的?"},{"start":233.563,"end":261.261,"text":"我們在人數的部分因為有一段時間他們是會跟縣市政府的申請清涵子女補助的部分那他可以選擇跟我們申請那因為少子化的關係就慢慢減少了所以這個清涵榮民子女就學補助比去年少是因為人數變少是他可以選擇跟縣市政府或者跟我們都可以的那健保的費用為什麼會增加"},{"start":263.891,"end":282.611,"text":"建保113年建保的費用在你們報告的預算書的39頁,榮民、榮眷的建保的費用都增加延放來說一下延放為什麼增加建保是大家都增加嗎還是人數的問題"},{"start":286.226,"end":290.447,"text":"委員好 我是就醫保健處三室那增加的原因是因為就是健保在結算的時候有發現我們經過就是有些榮民有增加那個投保到六類移牧那為什麼會增加這些增加投保六類移牧的人數主要是經過我們就是本會的一個宣導讓他們做一個最適的投保有時候他們可能依附到家屬依附到他們的小孩的"},{"start":316.432,"end":318.353,"text":"當成依附的眷屬或是他們投保錯誤的第五類所以我們有這樣的一個發現你們人真好謝謝就是錢變成是你們付而不是他的家人那邊付"},{"start":332.792,"end":338.997,"text":"這個是他的權益在健保法裡面有規定,就是我們無職業的農民他的保費是由本會來支應這很好,這個政府幫忙處理,比這個子女處理可能更好接下來有一筆錢是在第67頁裡面去採購的一個叫做AI面試設備"},{"start":353.587,"end":376.754,"text":"那我的理解是讓我們的這個要轉職的農民弟兄啊他們要去面試之前有一個模擬面試的概念嘛那你們採購了20套請問這20套是一個什麼什麼概念是版權買20套還是有20套放在20台電腦還是在20個地方"},{"start":379.417,"end":397.502,"text":"委員好 我是救學監獄處處長跟您報告 我們買了這個就是AI的模擬系統我們要在全國的19個容服處跟執訓中心都有這樣子的一套系統這個系統是我們跟勞動部桃竹苗分屬授權給我們來運用但是我要透過我一個電腦的一個monitor的系統來去讓我的退出於官兵在做面試的一個模擬練習好 來"},{"start":408.465,"end":416.419,"text":"你覺得大家模擬面是還要跑去一個固定的定點嗎他不能在他家用嗎他還要跑去那裡"},{"start":417.537,"end":437.144,"text":"不是很奇怪嗎是 委員報告我們剛講因為這個是我們從事辦到今年邁入第二年因為這個是我們要結合很多的退伍官兵因為他去求職會到我們容服處來做那個職埃諮商職埃諮商的時候我們就順便要幫他去做這個面試的"},{"start":439.786,"end":445.03,"text":"這錢付給誰?這個版權費付?沒有版權問題,是他們授權給我們授權是誰授權?桃子苗分屬,勞動部,部會之間的資源鏈結所以他收這個錢基本上也沒什麼意義啊"},{"start":455.933,"end":460.035,"text":"沒有付費是買硬體的設施那你們這個東西就他讓你們的榮民在家裡就可以磨泥面絲為什麼要跑去一個地方呢根據委員報告我懂您的意思但是因為這個即便像桃子苗分屬因為我說過我們是去跟他授權獲得"},{"start":476.403,"end":499.916,"text":"他也是讓桃竹廟地區的人到他那邊去做這樣的一個模擬嘗試因為那如果說要讓每一個人都開放的話這個版權是桃竹廟分屬我們可以去跟他洽談協商包委員跟榮福住他有一個就業站我知道就業站專門介紹你成功的讓你去就業所以在家裡面可能有些榮福住有的家裡會沒有所以在榮福住是比較"},{"start":500.856,"end":528.017,"text":"比較完整啦如果是要找工作去榮福署的就業站因為他有一個完整的一套人馬在那邊這是大家就習慣會去一個點的開設是嗎是是是就業媒合就業站20套榮福署再加上我們退伍費的執行中心最後一個是在預算書41頁有關於這個偏鄉醫師留任的這個不管是獎助補助這一類這個預算跟去年的預算是一模一樣的"},{"start":529.737,"end":543.327,"text":"時代已經在變成本越來越高你們要留任偏鄉的醫師結果你們編的這個預算要鼓勵這個醫師在偏鄉留任的費用沒有增加這到底怎麼回事"},{"start":546.392,"end":575.444,"text":"這樣怎麼留任?報告委員,這個是一個衛福部的一個偏鄉留任的這個醫師的獎勵計畫所以他每年框的額度都是一樣的那我們會按照這樣的額度來看這個今年來登記的這個醫師有多少人這樣子所以我們在去年的部分我們合訂了42位那今年合訂31位那每年來報這個計畫的人數都會不一樣會有修正那你們不可以加嗎?可以加的,是只要預算有剩餘的話我們都可以在年度內再增加"},{"start":576.434,"end":593.366,"text":"不是,我是說你們不可以個人增加嗎?個人的費用這個費用是按照衛福部公道地區的醫院來給的費用那你們不能增加,退伍費自己不能加就到我這個育女農民的我就增加"},{"start":595.051,"end":614.018,"text":"是對,報告委員那個玉里跟鳳林還有新竹目前都屬於高度偏鄉的醫院,他的金額已經有調高了,按照衛福部的公告已經有調高了不是,我說衛福部公告以後你們可不可以再增加?沒有嘛報告委員,我是副主委吳志揚"},{"start":614.81,"end":643.504,"text":"那這個部分因為這個計畫是衛福部頒訂的包含這些服務資格還有訂定高度偏鄉和這個偏遠的部分一百八十萬一年跟一百二十萬一年他這個都是衛福規定如果要調可能要衛福部那邊來決定我們會向衛福部再爭取如果預算可以編不是啊衛福部訂了一個嘛那全國適用嘛沒有沒有他是全部所有的全國適用全國適用是那我們退五位自己的"},{"start":644.184,"end":672.327,"text":"不能增加是不是不能再加我們退伏費有我們自己訂的這個同籌款的部分但是因為這個部分它有條件比如說留任的部分偏向醫師留任最多只能領兩年超過以後就沒有了所以說我們每一年按照這個預估的人數編列這些預算那平均大概抓145萬一年一個醫師所以說我們這個錢大概都是固定這個我懂啦就全國都一樣嘛就是說那這是"},{"start":672.967,"end":693.719,"text":"退府會自己所屬的這些相關的醫院,我們不能再加了啊,一個月加個兩萬、三萬,這對你們來購買一點錢而已,讓更多偏鄉的願意留在我們的系統裡嗎?我們輔導會有自己的統籌款的部分,像我們心境醫師的部分,今年我們就有調整到一個醫師補助三十萬"},{"start":694.919,"end":711.147,"text":"那這個因為這個系統兩個規矩不一樣一個是衛福部訂所屬但是我們自己的醫生我們錢自己編但是我必須按照他所訂的標準來給付那我們自己統籌款的部分我們也會另頒下去給各院有個依據衛福部比較沒錢啦"},{"start":714.528,"end":742.276,"text":"阿你看你像台北榮總錢那麼多錢也是用我們自己的不是阿像台北榮總用那麼多錢那保這個育理也就是花蓮也算台北榮總管的嘛阿那要擲一把會鼓勵大家到偏鄉榮民醫院的系統裡頭去服務嘛這研究看看啦是只要衛福部不反對你們應該就可以做了衛福部能夠提高我們就跟著提高沒問題好啦謝謝謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"168729","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168729","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5880b40c5769f18b5539641358abc263685f3e6e8cff854f2050ed7b2b649bdd317367dc2c47e45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳沛憶","委員發言時間":"11:34:21 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當時是戒嚴時期資訊封閉而且我們也沒有環評法規相關的程序所以可以說核三廠興建的時候其實是沒有公民參與機制的公民當時無法表達意見那也遠不如今天的程序完備那我們現在已經是民主化時代民主社會所以我們一定要進行充分的社會溝通你們也務必要把可能的影響要對大眾來進行說明"},{"start":65.385,"end":85.832,"text":"那我想請問一下因為剛剛主委有說這個說明會我們是全程網路直播嘛是的是 所以我覺得很好那場次呢因為你們舉辦時間是在平日上午其實有些民眾反映在上班不方便參加我們有沒有預計規劃其他場次我們主播會有四場總共會有四場好 這個資訊呢請你們務必在網路上面都要公開那我們這個說明會完的會議記錄會不會公開上網"},{"start":91.113,"end":114.774,"text":"會的也會公開上網很好我們要讓民眾能夠有實質的參與的機會跟管道那另外今天和安會的專報也有關於原子能法的修法因為有委員提案在討論事項當中那作為立法委員呢會法案把關都是我們的工作所以呢這個張委員有提案版本那比較不好意思但是因為這個對這個版本確實有些意見所以今天要提出來跟和安會討論"},{"start":116.375,"end":132.553,"text":"這個版本是趙偉宇、廖偉祥、蘇清泉、徐巧欣、林倩琴、林佩祥等19位委員所提的主要意見是在於它這個修法版本的第三條因為我們現行的版本是說原子能主管機關為原子能委員會"},{"start":133.274,"end":148.264,"text":"立屬行政院其組織以法律定制那現在委員的修法版本是把裡面要說第三條應該應設立二級原子能主管機關核能安全委員會那麼核安會我們目前是三級機關"},{"start":150.146,"end":165.598,"text":"那如果要修為二級機關這個方向其實我認為都可以討論但是如果是這個修法是修在原子能法我就比較有疑慮一點目前核安會是三級獨立機關這個是定在哪一條法裡面"},{"start":167.85,"end":182.478,"text":"所以河安會組織法對因為我們其實是有河安會的組織法我們有專屬的組織法就在第一條裡面裡面有明定說這個我們是相當中央的三級獨立機關那既然我們已經有專屬的組織法"},{"start":184.119,"end":200.066,"text":"如果真的要提升它從三級到二級的話要修應該也是修在組織法當中應該不是修在原子能法尤其是今天它是修法是希望定定為基本法這個方向那我看了一下因為有可能是像我們新住民的基本法"},{"start":200.506,"end":222.884,"text":"他的這個要三級行政機關就是定在新住民基本法當中這個在法的第四條但是新住民基本法跟這個原子能法它是完全不同為什麼因為新住民基本法訂定的時候是2024年7月三讀通過當時是甚至沒有新住民發展署的有基本法之後還沒有組織法但是我們現在和安會我們既有法也有組織"},{"start":224.105,"end":249.167,"text":"更有組織法所以如果真的是要來討論這個三級至二級的話要修應該也是要訂到組織法當中今天人事總署是不是也有來我有請人事總署那另外呢如果要真的要修這個法的話也是要配套修法因為也是正在叫我們叫文匯去年成立了運動部嘛我們新設運動部的時候當時不只是修了不只是提了運動組織法同時要修什麼要修中央行政機關組織"},{"start":251.168,"end":275.325,"text":"組織基準法與行政院組織法因為我們這個核安會他是他如果真的要提升這個級別的話這是牽涉到行政院整體的這個機關所以如果要修也是這兩個法都要配套來修所以第一個如果修了原子能法還是得要修這個核安會組織法嗎所以我就看不出來說為什麼要來修這個原子能法第二個"},{"start":275.905,"end":298.642,"text":"就算修了環衛組織法我們還是要配套修中央行政機關組織基準法跟行政院組織法這三個法通通都要修才有可能那如果說現在我們只修原子能法就要來把三級變到二級但是沒有去修中央行政機關組織基準法及行政院組織法的話這個在法與法之間會不會有所衝突這個主委可以回答嗎還是我們任總可不可以來協助回答"},{"start":300.015,"end":326.604,"text":"就是說倘若啦就是說河安會如果現在要把它變從三級變成二級機關的話沒有去修中央行政機關組織基準法跟行政組織法會不會有所衝突是報告委員那原則上我們的原則是說在作用法裡面其實盡量不要提到組涉跟能力的編制所以他這次的修法主要其實是在證明說他的主管機關是誰所以因為原則能"},{"start":327.784,"end":355.284,"text":"委員會的名稱已經改變所以提到這次的修法但是提到組織層級這個我們還是比較希望回到組織法跟行政院組織法或者相關的規範來做檢討以上好 謝謝對 所以如果說是三級要到二級我覺得可以討論但是這個修法應該是要來配套再來就是我也很關心的是因為現在這個趙偉這個版本裡面還有把獨立機關的獨立兩個字是把它拿掉的"},{"start":356.284,"end":378.16,"text":"這個我有很大的疑慮 為什麼因為核安會作為獨立機關是因為他這樣的職權是叫做監管核能安全這是我們主委剛剛一再強調也是你們今天報告當中所講的原子能法他所訂定的是原子能政策以及安全管制的根本法制基礎但今天如果你把獨立兩個字拿掉"},{"start":380.573,"end":409.093,"text":"這個未來看起來核安會它也有可能是成為一個推動機關而不只是監管機關我們讓它是獨立機關第一個最重要是我們希望核安會不受政治干擾依專業來自主決定應該核能安全就是要回歸專業但如果把獨立兩個字拿掉未來如果核安會變成還是推動機關不只是監管機關會造成非常非常大的問題"},{"start":410.632,"end":425.442,"text":"因為河岸會現在的定位其實是裁判推動機關叫做經濟部叫做台電如果把獨一兩個字拿掉未來河岸會還要去推動的話那變成裁判兼球員球員兼裁判"},{"start":427.628,"end":457.328,"text":"所以我有很大的疑慮那所以未來在討論這個修法的時候請大家務必要謹慎那最後呢是今天我們專案當中也有海域輻射監測這個我也很關切因為主要談論是寒川廢水嘛國際原子能總署最新發布的消息是日本從福島核電廠排放的第19批處理水它的寒川量是遠低於日本的排放限值那麼請何安慧協助說明這個訊息它代表什麼意思"},{"start":459.509,"end":485.187,"text":"报告委员那因为IEA都会针对日本每一批次的排放都会去取样那在这个因为他们也会去做分析那依照日本的一个排放限制是每一批次的那个稀释后的穿农度是要低于1500贝克每公升那他们的一个都分析完那依据我们过去的一个掌握日本大概每一批次大概是坐落到200到500之间"},{"start":487.308,"end":504.61,"text":"所以IEA才會說它的一個是遠低於日本的排放限值所以都是在標準內我看了一下歷來的資料這屬於常態但是我們核安會還是要持續的來監測不能放鬆警戒但是我要提醒為什麼會有寒川廢水"},{"start":505.851,"end":528.878,"text":"那就是因為福島當年核災發生之後它的第一核電廠它受損了嘛所以它為了要去維持它受損反應爐的安全它必須持續的一直去注入它的冷卻水把這個水注入到爐心因為要幫反應爐降溫對不對然後這個寒川水因為量實在太大了最後它只好往海域去排放"},{"start":531.069,"end":542.175,"text":"那為什麼要持續降溫因為現在的核燃料棒跟反應爐它是融在一起拿不出來我們現在還有多少的這個核燃料是殘留在福島的核儀廠團會有沒有資訊"},{"start":546.564,"end":570.614,"text":"一共現在還有880噸 這是日本的資料因為1號機 2號機 3號機 三部機組因為爐心受損 燃料目前還取不出來因為它們融在一起 所以目前在裡面的還有880噸2024年的時候日本首次取出燃料碎片 取出了多少 取出了3克"},{"start":572.025,"end":581.522,"text":"在裡面880噸 核栽之後 核栽就沒事了880噸 現在椰子取出了3克為什麼 因為它融在一起了所以這是一個非常龐大複雜的問題"},{"start":584.133,"end":605.126,"text":"所以我要再次來提醒有關於核能的使用每一個決策它的影響都甚大甚久遠目前這個寒川廢水日本往海域排放還要排放多少年沒有人知道它的這個核燃料殘存在輔導廠裡面的還要多少年才有辦法完全取出沒有人知道"},{"start":605.766,"end":627.527,"text":"所以呢 我們務必 核安會是核能安全的主管機關要拜託你們 務必要謹慎的為國人來把關我們核能使用的安全好不好 主委 這是你們重大的責任有關於台灣的下一個50年 下一個100年就在我們核安會 你們謹慎的把關當中請務必秉持專業好 謝謝主委 謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"168728","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168728","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5880b40c5769f174e1f953b73ec4dd63812774c6aab6af4f2050ed7b2b649b741abac731c48f905ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"11:30:37 - 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報告委員那個"},{"start":82.503,"end":96.862,"text":"包委員那個中央公司董事長有講就是說我們大概原油一天的使用量是大概是15萬噸對所以15萬桶所以這個200萬桶的話大概可以支撐半個多月"},{"start":97.803,"end":119.251,"text":"那四月份的時候事實上中國公司的原油到港大概有三艘那台塑化它是有一艘所以基本上這個供應量應該是所以有三艘啦有持續就是其他的就是除了這一艘之外還有其他其他艘會持續進來那我想要就是了解就是說因為現在"},{"start":120.543,"end":139.449,"text":"我聽到了很多真的就是說在做公務工程的都在反映因為歷清的問題造成他現在的施工必須要暫緩歷清我們重新盤點大概可以供應到六月份六月底那我們現在也請重要公司"},{"start":140.889,"end":156.565,"text":"直接對外來做採購那台塑化的部分他們因為有進來的這個原油他也可以有一些也可以煉製剩下這個瀝青出來 對好 沒關係所以 不用再衍生問題出來第一位就是說對這一些承包商"},{"start":160.229,"end":184.436,"text":"他們可能會有說因為疫情的問題他們的工期是需要檢討工期所以委員假如說有比較明確的個案給我們來做一些媒合像其他的地區它有比較急迫性那讓我們了解我們來做一些媒合的動作好 那我是在請這個台電的董事長委員好來"},{"start":191.884,"end":218.065,"text":"部長跟董事長我還是要問一下因為丹納斯的到現在已經經過了超過8個月的時間那這個丹納斯的條例後那我們當時是針對很多重要的一些路就是說比較屬於它的地基會比較強的就是包括台17台19線的一個電纜地下化"},{"start":221.027,"end":227.622,"text":"那我想請教董事長那整個這些電腦地下化這個在特別預算執行那現在推動的狀況如何"},{"start":228.624,"end":252.876,"text":"那個包委員第一件事情嘉義縣目前我們同樣回報是都已經發包了這是第一點第二點是計執行率現在來看就是它是名列前茅的那主要就是因為我們要取得路證等等還要做一些交違只要是順利我們速度就會快那土方這個地方也能夠做一定程度的解決所以嘉義縣在整個速度來看是排在比較前面進度還不錯"},{"start":253.776,"end":273.247,"text":"所以該一關的整個進度都會有啦因為這特別條例他都頂兩年所以我這個進度我是我們希望執行速度能夠盡量執行技術可以越快越好啦好那就這個還是要持續來希望可以加速那第二個就是說這一個在中普這邊啦中普這邊那"},{"start":278.035,"end":301.87,"text":"中友有一個探勘的事業部這個可能要請中友了有一個探勘事業部那這個探勘事業部在11月11號事實上有針對中埔竹頭旗段400之一地號高溫地下水層的一個評估報告那這個評估報告他主要是認定中埔在這個路段在這個地段"},{"start":303.444,"end":319.313,"text":"如果往下挖掘的話只要挖掘到420到730米的左右他們可以井底的地層溫度可以到43度那如果你挖到了分水溪的下段也就是100米至1000米至1200米"},{"start":323.535,"end":329.96,"text":"以這個這一段的話底層溫度可以到61度你如果挖到這個鳥嘴層的上段它的溫度可以到1200度你挖到了1200公尺到1400公尺也底層溫度可以到70度所以基本上這一個挖井它有地熱的一個條件那我想請教的話就是經濟部跟中油你們針對這樣有發展有所謂的一個地熱的一個條件的話"},{"start":353.575,"end":357.837,"text":"那你們有辦法來針對這些計畫來實施後續的專探那後續的一些投資計畫嗎"},{"start":368.09,"end":382.842,"text":"報告委員,有關嘉峪中浦溫泉這個探警的部分,應該不是中油公司去專探的,應該是民間業者不過他這些研究報告的話,大概有請我們公司一起來共同探討,這可能性"},{"start":383.482,"end":404.629,"text":"一般我們判斷的基準大概就是這個地熱的溫度呢到達150度C應該就具備了可以開發的一個評估啦所以以這樣的一個地區的話如果是這樣研究報告是可以做這樣的一個後續的探討的話我想我們中原公司跟業者之間可以做進一步的交流"},{"start":405.049,"end":421.5,"text":"對 因為這個業者主要他是針對溫泉所以溫泉他大概以這個他去做狀態他就只研究到1400米那你低熱當然就要再往下但是再往下的這個評估大概民間就沒有辦法了"},{"start":421.96,"end":448.916,"text":"就只能靠中油你們是最專業的嘛而且你們最近在宜蘭這邊我看到一些新聞說有取得非常大的成功就是說往下這個地熱已經到達了180度嘛這是我看到的一些在宜蘭的一個狀況那如果同樣的在我們中埔有這樣的一個潛力的話那也許這就不是民間有辦法去再往下去撞灘去了解因為他們這是針對溫泉的一個研究"},{"start":452.018,"end":455.621,"text":"那有溫泉如果再往下有地熱的話那這裡的條件就會更好這應該是沒有錯吧"},{"start":460.517,"end":486.534,"text":"因為我們現在有補助啦如果民間業者他要打比較深的這個叫深層低熱的話事實上是政府有補助的補助的比例大概是多少我們有一個計算的公式然後最高每一家我記得好像是1億元啦就是但是要看他的那個打的深度所以還是要民間發動然後你們補助對對對沒有辦法直接就是由中油這邊來啟動這樣的一個"},{"start":489.035,"end":510.103,"text":"中友另用中友公司因為他現在主要是在比較北部那個地方在宜蘭地區嘛對如果宜蘭地區那邊告一段落的話也可以到中府這邊來那應該是可以可以先嘗試去至少先去評估看看嘛就是說來那裡的環境看而且事實上我們嘉義跟中友關係就很深啊你們整個"},{"start":510.783,"end":527.295,"text":"我們嘉義市這邊就有整個中友的那個資訊中心啊都是在都在嘉義啊所以如果你們中友可以在我們中埔這個地方那投入這樣的一些一些撰刊那我想我我這樣判斷起來依這一份報告這一份雖然還沒有到"},{"start":530.017,"end":544.832,"text":"打地熱的研究但是我覺得是很有潛力的這個應該是值得中油去去做這樣的一個未來的一個規劃是是我想我們可以去做共同的探討好謝謝董事長好那我再最後一個要請教這個部長"},{"start":546.906,"end":575.762,"text":"就是部長因為我最近也是看到這個一些新聞看起來齁這個在風電的這一塊很多產業齁很多外商基本上決定要退出台灣那從包括呃加德西外那法國政府100%持有的這個能源的法國電力齁這個再生能源公司叫做EDF齁也決定要退出退出那看起來就是說"},{"start":576.502,"end":582.81,"text":"台灣的風電似乎走進了一個瓶頸但是這件事讓我有一點納悶我們這個風電廠如果以前兩期的開發經過了小犬颱風經過了當納斯颱風"},{"start":593.764,"end":600.107,"text":"這都是非常強的而且丹納斯颱風甚至到了14級15級風那他們可以這樣依然都是我看起來是沒有一個這個風電的這個電塔有去倒掉嘛"},{"start":612.253,"end":638.89,"text":"所以看起來就是說水價基礎的技術也夠成熟那整個發電的效率在冬季的時候也可以達到非常好的發電效率那怎麼會變成說現在外商覺得台灣的這個投資環境已經包含不會因為第一期 您剛才提到第一期第二期大家都要完成了那現在就是有退出的比較有問題就是3.1 3.2某些廠商"},{"start":641.796,"end":663.513,"text":"說老實話這個應該是跟當初的這個選商機制是有一些關係啊我們現在3.3就會回到另外的選商機制那現在表達願意參與的這個廠商家屬也非常多包括國外的有幾位這個都來拜會包括我們駐台的一些代表"},{"start":664.353,"end":682.937,"text":"他們也表達很大的興趣3.3的部分所以保定你有信心就是說3.3按推動的話因為這個風電我想我們整個政策是延續的嘛而且縱使現在有在做核電重啟的評估但是它跟風電它跟這個綠電的產業政策這個"},{"start":686.118,"end":705.012,"text":"這個並不違背啊 並不是說有評估這邊豐電這邊就要把整個把它停掉我們很快3.3完以後很快的3.4就會推出來還是會出出來 所以政府在綠電的推動我想基本上會持續嘛 而且我再說著台積電他現在需要R1版"},{"start":706.092,"end":726.332,"text":"它在R100它需要綠電R100的要求核電沒有在R100裡面核電沒有所以現在幾乎台灣的風電看起來台積電就是買了一半以上吧所以它有這樣高度的需求那台灣的綠電的一個發展這事情不能我知道"},{"start":726.872,"end":745.833,"text":"在野黨好像對綠電是有很大的一些錯誤的誤解那甚至是批判造成很多政策在推動上是沒順利這個是感受得到但是站在經濟部的角度你們對於綠電的推動應該要持續的力道繼續往前推吧是沒有錯我們還會加強"},{"start":747.755,"end":764.23,"text":"好 那就未來就是希望部長這部分 也許再跟這一些業者吼 大家吼 大家這樣開槓一下然後了解一下 到底他們現在遇到的困境是什麼 我就想整個已經邁向成熟的政策 不可以這樣走回去不會 不會 好 謝謝好 謝謝參與委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"168727","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168727","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5880b40c5769f14077075b014891bbf38d440c98c629e74f2050ed7b2b649bf0c54870947c465d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"涂權吉","委員發言時間":"11:25:21 - 11:37:33","影片長度":"00:12:12","會議時間":"2026-04-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請環境部部長、國家科學及技術委員會、交通部、經濟部、內政部、農業部、衛生福利部、國家發展委員會就「我國氣候變遷調適現況檢討與全球調適目標接軌之推動情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查中華民國115年度中央政府總預算案關於環境部主管預算案。(公務及非營業特種基金預算案)\n三、審查中華民國115年度中央政府總預算案直轄市及縣市政府一般性補助款環境部主管部分預算。\n四、審查環境部函送財團法人環境資源研究發展基金會等4家財團法人115年度預算書案。\n\n【預算案僅詢答，115年4月30日下午5時截止收案】\n【專題報告及討論事項綜合詢答】\n\n【4月22日及23日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-04-22","start_time":"2026-04-22T11:25:21+08:00","end_time":"2026-04-22T11:37:33+08:00","duration":732,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":5,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-5-26-7"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.869093750000001,"end":11.084093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.286593750000002,"end":12.214718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.437843750000003,"end":17.53034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.64846875,"end":18.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.96471875,"end":19.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.15034375,"end":42.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.674093750000004,"end":44.07471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.564093750000005,"end":50.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.297218750000006,"end":52.360343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.018468750000004,"end":101.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.80409375,"end":105.16221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.61784375,"end":110.14034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.27534375,"end":128.02784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.02784375000002,"end":137.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.69721875000002,"end":161.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.59221875,"end":177.35346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.70409375,"end":175.24409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.37471875,"end":185.79096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.98596875,"end":180.22221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.47096875,"end":181.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.35221875000002,"end":186.17909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.97659375,"end":207.69471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.70721875,"end":251.16471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.55284375000002,"end":254.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.72096875000003,"end":257.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.77971875000003,"end":264.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.35659375,"end":268.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.15346875,"end":275.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.56596875,"end":322.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.34346875,"end":328.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.89096875,"end":330.30846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.64596875,"end":335.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":335.53971875,"end":346.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.33971875000003,"end":350.38971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.28034375000004,"end":349.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.86221875,"end":353.20784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.56221875,"end":357.07221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":357.19034375,"end":358.69221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":358.72596875000005,"end":360.16034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.26159375000003,"end":370.48784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":371.12909375000004,"end":373.87971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":374.47034375000004,"end":380.66346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.01784375,"end":382.90784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":381.96284375000005,"end":412.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.47284375000004,"end":412.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":412.48971875,"end":415.42596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":415.54409375,"end":417.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":418.14284375000005,"end":436.87409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":437.41409375,"end":452.02784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":452.92221875,"end":456.90471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":456.09471875,"end":458.06909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":457.86659375000005,"end":464.16096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":458.20409375,"end":458.35596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":464.39721875000004,"end":470.91096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":471.33284375000005,"end":473.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":471.78846875000005,"end":490.03034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":490.03034375000004,"end":522.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":519.35909375,"end":519.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":522.5990937500001,"end":532.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":532.23471875,"end":532.6228437500001},{"speaker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彭部長請問一下我們在2025年我們看了一下全台掩埋一場有高達24起的火災那當然從南到北都有那後來你們也有發新聞稿說我們全台廢棄物戰之日常發生火災的原因是因為秋季異常的暖乾還有我們電池物品未分類的問題"},{"start":42.754,"end":51.684,"text":"那我想請問一下我們針對電池的部分我們不是有管理嗎那為什麼還會有沒有分類的在我們的掩埋場裡面"},{"start":53.546,"end":73.155,"text":"這個其實我們最近其實也想要啟動行動電源行動電源雖然有一些回收機制但是其實還不夠大量所以還是有一些民眾他會直接丟到垃圾堆裡面然後造成這種容易火災的事情發生所以的確雖然有分類的體系但是還是有一些漏網之魚"},{"start":73.695,"end":101.126,"text":"所以針對這部分等於說沒有說分類的很徹底對對我們現在應該到了這個10月11月我們現在在規劃一個新的機制有機會會把這個量特別是告訴大家因為現在以前是比較少行動電源的問題因為行動電源現在幾乎是人手一台所以基本上事實上手機有鋰電池也會造成這樣的影響所以我們要鼓勵大家手機或是行動電源都要按照我們正當的程序來做回收"},{"start":101.886,"end":130.916,"text":"所以你們認為說這個掩埋場起火的原因就是有很多原因是因為這個電池位分裂還有這個行動離電池的關係嘛對就是其實這個東西不是只有行電鏈還有很多的玩具還有很多日常家電用品裡面都有這種小的電池那個經過這個大自然喔這個不管是刮風這個日曬之後很容易就會火災這個是一個很很主要的一個原因啦好那今天會提這個其實還是有一個問題因為我們知道說"},{"start":131.636,"end":150.587,"text":"像大量的廢棄物它混雜會發酵產生熱量那尤其我們像不要說秋冬尤其現在馬上夏天了那個溫度太高也會加速分解也會產生早氣那我們現在要討論的問題就是說我們很快的馬上到今年底"},{"start":151.127,"end":168.966,"text":"我們廚餘就要全面回收那這些廚餘我們收到以後去掩埋那這樣子產生早氣那是不是發生火災的風險會更大包委員目前廚餘處理並沒有走到掩埋的程序主要是堆肥或是這個黑水盲"},{"start":169.386,"end":197.812,"text":"或是說生殖能或是說最後最後還是有一部分去這個焚化爐啦所以目前我們並沒有鼓勵走到對其實我們擔心說其實你電池會沒有分類像有很多的廚餘啊其實民眾也是會裝在垃圾裡面一樣來丟棄在裡面所以我們說你電池你看你都有管理辦法都還要去罰錢都沒有辦法落實那你這個廚餘現在尤其我們是認為喔它處理的量能也會有問題啊"},{"start":198.732,"end":223.526,"text":"到時候甚至在掩埋場裡面一定也是很多的廚餘混雜在裡面那產生早期那以後發生火災的機會一定是會更大那所以我們現在重點我們想了解一下我們針對廚餘據我們了解我們現在廚餘在利用的方式像我們現在事業廚餘裡面我們去了解我們全國大概有"},{"start":225.827,"end":250.558,"text":"25%現在還是用珍珠養豬那家戶廚餘跟事業廚餘大概有23%我們是用焚化的方式處理那當然焚化的方式我們查了一下包含新北台北等14個縣市都用焚化的方式那我們也知道焚化廚餘其實它也是會產生代澳型而且也會影響"},{"start":251.798,"end":275.303,"text":"焚化毒的年限那我們現在如果廚餘前面不能養豬禁止養豬之後這廚餘的量勢必會大量增加那我們現在到底處理這個方式有了解我們有更多的多元的處理方式還有我們處理的量能是不是一定會嚴重不足"},{"start":276.123,"end":297.254,"text":"報告委員,關於這個大躍興的問題,其實我們很重視,所以我有特別請每個焚化爐都要去針對這個大躍興去做檢測,全部符合規則。那另外一個是我們還包含了幾個相對的高一點點的,我們都有量周介,所以也都符合現在所有的環境的這個大躍興可能排放的一個標準。"},{"start":297.814,"end":321.855,"text":"至於說那個量能現在預計的確還不夠還是需要靠焚化爐但是預計到明年的年底我們就希望說這個量能可以平衡不過我們最大的挑戰是今年的年底到明年一月的時候因為他就不能去未租了所以基本上連事業廚餘都要進到進到這個所謂的我們正常的回收的體系那預計這個的問題要到明年年底才有辦法得到一個平衡"},{"start":322.655,"end":349.433,"text":"所以我們現在你廚餘回收之後我們現在除了堆肥還有什麼方式能夠處理黑水盟還有生殖能所以我們現在好像我們生殖能中心好像桃園有一個生殖能中心他可以處理生廚餘跟熟廚餘那台中外埔綠能生態園區他就只能處理生廚餘也可以的他也可以現在也可以的"},{"start":350.994,"end":369.95,"text":"其實據我們了解,其實我們也去考察很多,像我們上次去觀音,我們也了解到其實現在有很多的技術能夠處理廚餘,好像我們了解說那次考察有去到觀音,那後來我們也去看了一下我們新北,其實它有一個"},{"start":371.455,"end":399.743,"text":"處理廚餘的技術我們去看一下他是用高壓高溫水解的技術來做廚餘去化這個部分部長知道有這個技術嗎那個對於這個廚餘處理的確是可以的但是他也會產生很多的這個污水那目前這個是處理廚餘是應該是可以進行的方案不過因為他還是在一個試驗型的一個特性那他有經過一些小型的這個運作"},{"start":400.703,"end":413.976,"text":"那當然啦必須說這個東西屬於民間或是說製造廚藝的人他未來這個東西都要有一定的費用就跟垃圾是一樣的在這個市場上一定要有一個商業模式才可以運轉的不過據我們這瞭解我們剛剛講這個高溫高壓這水解技術喔"},{"start":418.24,"end":436.732,"text":"它可以全部做處理它固態的廚餘乾燥之後可以做SRF也可以做碳化的肥料然後它液態的它經過過濾濃縮之後可以做液態肥那它唯一有的廢棄物就是油脂那結果它油脂"},{"start":437.452,"end":451.491,"text":"可以回收去做這個生態燃料油所以看起來他幾乎可以全面的做處理我想說像這個處理的方式他應該可以做全面處理像後來我們了解他說其實"},{"start":452.964,"end":469.143,"text":"他說他一天處理的噸數可以到300噸他目前50噸而已對 可是現在只叫他做50噸所以我們就覺得很奇怪那我們處理那麼多都沒有辦法處理那他說他量能可以處理到那麼大為什麼可以處理到300噸 結果我們只"},{"start":472.625,"end":486.83,"text":"因為它才剛開始啦那必須任何一個環保設施都必須要讓大家有信心才能繼續做下去所以目前呢我知道新北市環保局也跟他們積極在合作如果它50噸沒有問題的話我相信應該到300噸應該就有機會打開了"},{"start":488.831,"end":508.794,"text":"好那是因為說現在我們馬上面臨廚餘禁止養豬這個廚餘的量一定會變得更大所以我們希望我們除了黑水盟還有堆肥這些方式應該我們環境部要趕快請環保局去了解我們處理的量能還有有沒有更多"},{"start":510.015,"end":526.899,"text":"處理多元的方式看希望能夠找污染更低有更大規模的來處理這部分我們應該趕快來盤點清楚不然馬上我們面臨這個問題會非常非常的嚴重我們每兩個禮拜都在開會都在跟各縣市在檢討這個數字然後他們的進度好 那我簡單再問一下"},{"start":533.322,"end":558.474,"text":"我請問一下部長我們現在廢清法針對非灰沒有汙染的部分是不是目前是可以回收再利用的我看很多縣市都有回收再利用對不對對對對對只要檢測沒有汙染就可以做嗎對沒錯對然後去做什麼CLCM這種低強度的混泥土之類的對不對對沒錯那我們馬上是不是也要推動我們資源循環促進法"},{"start":558.934,"end":573.665,"text":"是那這個目的當然是讓更我們要找更多的東西希望都能夠這個推動循環經濟把很多能夠回收的盡量讓他去回收然後減少這個垃圾量也能夠減碳這推動這個循環經濟嘛是沒錯那所以"},{"start":577.307,"end":599.616,"text":"我也希望像我們針對非灰的部分我們當然可以從嚴認定可是現在很多業者擔心說本來這個可以回收利用的不要到時候變成因為錯誤的方向導致到時候非灰完全不能回收利用那造成更多的"},{"start":600.396,"end":617.553,"text":"更多的垃圾更多的明明就可以回收利用的東西變成不能回收利用我們可以從嚴認定而且你像CLSM你如果擔心會有污染問題你可以去不要去買有金屬管的這個工程嘛 對不對"},{"start":620.044,"end":635.672,"text":"報告委員我們其實對於這個問題因為近期有一些特別的案例所以我們也思考到法規有必須要調整所以我們的概念大概是從嚴管理但是我們也鼓勵再利用學生的話鼓勵再利用我們是完全支持的"},{"start":636.632,"end":657.001,"text":"所以我希望我們也不要本末倒置本來廢清法可以針對非灰我們可以從嚴認定從嚴的檢測只要無汙染的一定讓他去做回收再利用你不要變成推動資源循環促進法以後本來可以回收的變成不能去使用"},{"start":658.001,"end":679.472,"text":"我是認定我們可以要求從嚴認定嚴格的把關但是不能本末導致明明可以回收利用的變成不能回收利用那你如果擔心說會有污染金屬管的問題你就CLSM不要去買這個有金屬管的工程那你如果說擔心說"},{"start":680.552,"end":702.119,"text":"加到混泥土裡面什麼20年30年可能會有污染問題那你去固化一樣也會有這個問題所以這個顧慮是有點多餘的是我們現在在修改然後也會跟業界來討論如何去修改就是管制一定要嚴格但是我們還是鼓勵這個循環再利用的一個方式所以我希望我們推動這個"},{"start":703.559,"end":729.504,"text":"支援循環促進法就是希望能夠有更多可以回收再利用的我們就回收再利用那當然我們認為所有這些把關檢測我們一定是從嚴認定但是可以用的你不能可以回收利用的不能變成說不能回收利用那這樣子我們推動這個循環經濟這就變得沒有道理了是是好那也希望部長能夠聽到更多的聲音好謝謝謝謝圖全經"}]}},{"id":"168721","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168721","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5880b40c5769f15341169e2d0036c169f826bc43123a8d4f2050ed7b2b649b05516ffde792dc4e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","委員發言時間":"09:35:27 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謝謝主席 有請副主委有請張副主委喂 好"},{"start":9.244,"end":26.472,"text":"副主委好首先我想問一個有關於最近發生的時事議題就是有一艘基隆級的泉魚六號海難事件這個事情基本上看起來是一個還蠻單純的海上救援但是現在卻演變成為兩岸各說各話的救難羅生門"},{"start":35.114,"end":49.472,"text":"我想對於人民來講最在意的就是生命財產的安全而不是在乎的是這誰先搶到話語權誰先做政治宣傳所以我今天我想請教海巡署的幾個問題"},{"start":50.914,"end":74.574,"text":"就是到底全魚六號它在4月16號在釣魚台東北約77海里那時候發生了這個失火那當時的救援的真相到底是如何在第一時間趕到現場然後有去幫忙去救助這個船員的到底是哪一個國家"},{"start":75.536,"end":104.716,"text":"我這邊特別跟委員說明中國大陸只要逮到機會他就可以做他認真作戰這是我現在聲明的部分第二個部分全域六號他是在16號的早上5點21分那我們5點21分接到通報以後因為那個地方是日本的搜救責任區我們現在所有的全世界搜救責任區都是根據IMO所有相關規定來規範的也就是那個責任區誰的責任區發現誰要先去救那我特別要跟委員報告我們現在搜救無國界"},{"start":105.816,"end":128.751,"text":"誰看到誰就會去救他不管是哪一個國家的那第二部分就是我們通報我們在國售中心就第一時間就通報日本日本海上保安廳他們是日本海上保安廳的第一艘船是在8點38分就到現場然後第二個部分他7點21分的時候他的空襯機海保就到現場去看了"},{"start":129.551,"end":152.039,"text":"所以第一個時間到現場的,是我們鄰近的漁船那個全體36,他先把船上有7個人,他先把6個船員先救起來那日本的,日本海保廳的PLO那個89謝謝副主委,您剛剛講這些事情,就是當然就是說,就中國大陸那邊"},{"start":152.679,"end":176.822,"text":"他們也發布了這個相關的新聞訊息也PO了照片那看起來當時他們應該是離這個泉漁六號的失火的船之非常靠近的那麼在這個部分來說可能日本也許你們我們先通知了日本那麼日本他先派了這個偵察機等等的去巡邏但是在第一時間救援的"},{"start":177.563,"end":202.918,"text":"除了我們自己剛剛講的全域36號我們自己台灣的船之外是不是中國大陸那邊的船也有伸出援手去救援我們接到全域36號通報的時候是在下午的4點多他有通報說有一艘中國的海警船在現場協助滅火那日本的日本他是以先救人為優先所以他第一時間除了滅火以外然後他先去救那個船長這個船到底是什麼兩邊都一起出來滅火嗎"},{"start":206.86,"end":222.806,"text":"一起救援嗎?日本跟中國大陸都有所以你看中國大陸是最先有去滅火的嘛然後船員是不是也是他們先救起來日本先滅火 日本先到但是日本沒有救船員"},{"start":226.107,"end":252.066,"text":"船員是我們在周邊作業的所以我們就先救了他們先救起來的好那如果這樣的話其實我想這個是一個大家蠻關心的一個船難的事件那更在乎的就是說到現在為止還有一名失蹤的船長到現在都還沒有被救起來我們很希望就是說是在不久的將來可以趕快找到這名船長那麼但是"},{"start":253.847,"end":272.834,"text":"就這件事情來說本席其實很在意的就是這個船難事件發生了那中國大陸他們那裡有可能他們的說法然後日本那邊也有他們說法但最重要是我們自己的這是我們自己的漁船海巡署應該要真實的呈現整個的救難經過"},{"start":275.056,"end":296.371,"text":"剛剛這個副主委講得很好就是救難無國界那麼救難我覺得也不應該去區別到底是誰先救誰後救或是說人家有救了然後又故意說他們又是一個政治的一個統戰的一個話術重要的是說是不是能夠救回人民的生命我覺得這是才是重點那在這裡我還想要再進一步的去了解的就是說那現在因為釣魚台周邊海域本來它就是一個高風險的區域"},{"start":303.656,"end":320.925,"text":"那麼對於北部漁船的相關的緊急定位的設備衛星通訊救生裝備的等等這些補助啊保險制度那海巡署這邊或是還有這個涉及跨國搜救協調機制就這個部分來講的話海巡署或是海委會這裡有沒有特別強化"},{"start":322.81,"end":348.316,"text":"這邊跟委員報告就是有關漁船的相關的這些設備補助還有包括救難設施這邊因為這是漁業署的權責那我們在我們還有一個部分我們會就護漁的部分我們會加強那比如說現在這個這個時機點就是釣魚台的台日海域的重點那個漁訊局所以我們通常會派一到三艘的大艦會在漁船最多的地方在附近護漁"},{"start":349.156,"end":354.972,"text":"那像台北現在也是熱季啊所以我們會派一到兩艘的大艦會在附近那保護我們的漁民"},{"start":356.384,"end":384.742,"text":"尤其是因为日本也认为这个钓鱼团那边是他们重要的海域他们过去也曾经有发生过就是又这个驱赶台湾的渔船那甚至对于台湾的渔民非常不友善比较恶劣的一个做法我们希望就是海巡署能够肩负起保护我们渔民的这个责任那么更何况就是现在海巡署对日本就是在这个海域的部分那又有中国大陆那边他们也会一起去"},{"start":385.842,"end":412.7,"text":"巡邏那麼就未來如果說有發生類似像這樣的一個救難事件來說我認為說兩岸還是要基於一個海難的相互互助的這樣的一個精神如果說那邊的船發生了問題我們去救援我們的船發生了問題他們也來救援那大家要把政治放兩旁這個就像我講的人民的生命財產才是最重要的這是以上我對於海巡署的期許"},{"start":413.26,"end":429.131,"text":"那另外對於說今天的海巡署要增加多一位副署長的事因為副署委也來跟我這裡報告過我原則上是支持可是我還是要講一下就是就目前我看到海委會跟海巡署之間分工的一個很奇特的狀況其實"},{"start":431.67,"end":460.378,"text":"就副主委您自己本身就是海委會的副主委但是又去擔任海巡署的署長所以您一個人是身兼數職對不對如果說今天海巡署署長跟副主委他是兩個不同的人擔任海巡署的署長其實他再加上兩個副署長也許就夠了可是你現在變成是分身乏術啊要去履行政務副主委的這樣的責任然後又同時要再去承擔海巡署署長這個重責大任"},{"start":461.278,"end":474.783,"text":"確實對於整個海巡署的人力配置來講的話是不足的那麼我認為說這個部分其實未來其實應該要進行檢討是不是副主委就副主委一個專職然後海巡署的署長就海巡署署長的專職"},{"start":475.902,"end":498.571,"text":"跟委包因為這有牽涉到修法所以到時候我們再來做相關的研究是因為你們自己就在內部所以很清楚知道說相關的法律是不是應該進行修正我個人覺得海巡署署長在工作上是不影響的這邊特別跟委員說明我完全不會影響到海巡署的工作而且我們推行的越來越好也謝謝委員的支持謝謝委員好以上好謝謝好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168720","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168720","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5880b40c5769f1ec3abced5647909e63685f3e6e8cff854f2050ed7b2b649bd104b08215f3295d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"11:08:54 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麻煩請主委有請主委 謝謝主委好 委員好"},{"start":23.121,"end":38.052,"text":"這個昨天因為有一些反核團體去跟總統見面那當然他們是不希望重啟核電不過我看有一些與會者他轉述賴總統的話感覺上賴總統是還蠻朝向重啟核電的角度去說啦"},{"start":38.717,"end":54.927,"text":"他說因為他考量到電力供應不如預期就是符合社會缺電的擔修還有說核安技術現在比較能夠掌握了然後另外就是AI未來用電大增所以應該要重新思考核電"},{"start":55.427,"end":77.86,"text":"其實我看到賴總統願意這樣講我們真的感到很高興因為過去幾年都是在野黨一直在強調說可能會缺電然後應該要重啟核電可能會有空污的問題或者是可能會電價上漲電力的韌性等等但一直因為民進黨就一直反對啦還常常在噴口水啦怎麼核廢料放你家這些最後終於賴總統"},{"start":79.201,"end":99.555,"text":"他也願意理性的面對這個重新重啟核電問題我覺得很高興那我相信賴總統這樣一講像包括核安會主委您或其他的政務官就可以更理性的面對這個議題不像以前我記得我們在問核安會主委有關於核電的議題的時候都是左閃右閃就都不敢講"},{"start":101.136,"end":118.243,"text":"您的前一任主委那時候問他說到底河南安不安全他說有發生事情就是不安全沒發生就是安全有講跟沒講一樣每個都變語言天才那我想跟這個主委先請教一下賴總統說現在河南技術可以掌握他是指哪一個部分"},{"start":121.888,"end":144.742,"text":"我不確定你不確定他講什麼核安技術是一直在進步之中過去40年他講的是傳統的核電還是新式核電新式核電傳統核電因為新式核電它的安全也是逐年都在改進傳統也是逐年都在改進對 逐年都在改進"},{"start":145.262,"end":152.75,"text":"那我想請教一下那您自己的立場呢你是不是贊同賴總統所講的你覺得核電到底對於讓電價穩定有幫助嗎"},{"start":160.053,"end":184.709,"text":"看財電公佈資料確實是有幫助有幫助是比較便宜嗎我看到資料上對於電價是有幫助電價可以比較穩定不會一直漲嗎是的甚至於如果未來核電的供應可以比較多的話那電價也可以更低一點沒問題嗎"},{"start":186.611,"end":215.081,"text":"這點恐怕台電去發明這個資料比較多由他們來回答比較適合然後再來就是用核電應該好處很多嘛比如說可以降低排碳量嘛對吧因為他們有不需要排碳嘛對吧是然後用電也比較穩定嘛至少比再生能源穩定嘛因為再生能源不是基載的嘛有時候要看天吃飯嘛核電應該是比較穩定嘛對吧核電是可以視為基載基載嘛那既然"},{"start":216.301,"end":235.478,"text":"主委你都認為使用核電或者是我們重啟核電有那麼多的好處我認為核安會除了被動的監管之外我覺得應該更積極的促成這件事情那現在因為台電已經在三月底的時候送出再運轉計畫了那核安會現在正在審嘛 對吧"},{"start":236.519,"end":262.011,"text":"那早上的時候主委你也有講一些你們審的程序啊比如說把意見啊大家先書面審查然後讓他上網公告嘛然後會實際上去看嘛然後還會邀請外部的學者什麼之類的那你有提到說因為安全關係沒有辦法加速審查但對於這件事這句話我覺得啦有沒有辦法在符合安全的情況之下加速審查這兩個沒有衝突啦"},{"start":263.384,"end":288.056,"text":"我舉例來講譬如說你現在是要在五月中的時候開第一次會議嘛審查會議嘛五月中嘛對不對那五月中通常政府機關運作是這樣啦開完會然後可能要台電補報告或什麼什麼會有一個程序對不對其實你可以在每一次跟每一次開會的中間你可以縮短開會的時間"},{"start":290.594,"end":314.58,"text":"或者是你在安排會議的時候你可以盡量縮短比如說你請外部專家來開會可能要開好幾次一兩次兩三次大家針對上一次的會議再來討論你可以縮短開會的時間我們行政院有很多其他的部會在審查比如說地方提出來的計畫的時候常常開會因為案子很多所以第一次會議跟第二次會議差到半年"},{"start":315.728,"end":337.64,"text":"那它其實也不見得是因為這個案子的問題而是因為案子很多以至於針對某一個案子它排比較久那假設核安會你把核二核三核三的再運轉計畫當作一件事情來做的話你其實可以透過縮短行政流程的方式來加速審查的時間那主委你同意嗎"},{"start":338.553,"end":366.899,"text":"所以核安會它的效益方面一直都很注視而且我們很有信心的說我們核安是很有效率的很有效率所以我覺得盡快啦好不好就針對剛剛大家也講了嘛核電現在重啟的話好處這麼多總統也有顧慮啊電力供應不如預期啊那核安會就比較被動的好像台電有資料來你就看一看再排會議其實你們可以多跟台電合作"},{"start":368.099,"end":379.068,"text":"去跟他講說趕快大家一起來促成讓合二合三重啟這件事情啦我的意思是這樣啦不知道主委可以嗎合二合三的溝通是非常順暢"},{"start":380.746,"end":396.815,"text":"順暢是順暢啦順暢是不要不會吵架我是說叫你積極的跟他說趕快補資料啊你缺什麼甚至於說不要文件來了這樣退啊有的時候大家可以一起講說你有什麼事情怎麼做可能會更快一點站在協助的角度去跟他講嘛"},{"start":398.378,"end":412.35,"text":"對那這樣子可能那個進程可以再縮短啦好然後再來就是你們現在4月28號要去恆春舉辦地方說明會對吧對主委您不會去嘛對吧我沒有去那因為之前"},{"start":413.351,"end":433.252,"text":"就是民進黨一直在講非核家園就把核都妖魔化了所以現在有非常多的人都反核啦那還有就是有些民進黨立委還是依然反核譬如說像屏東在地立委莊瑞雄就反核嘛他就是說核三已經為台灣貢獻四十年放了他的故鄉啦因為重啟核三"},{"start":433.993,"end":460.299,"text":"就好像打開潘朵拉的盒子啦反正就是反對然後譬如說像現在在選新北市長的舒巧惠也都是一直呼籲啦在叫大家拒絕重啟河山所以我是提醒環會啦你去開說明會的時候可能還是會依然遇到非常多反對聲音那你有預期你們準備的計畫或者是你要去跟地方怎麼溝通的你的重點是什麼提點溝通舒巧惠的好了"},{"start":461.725,"end":486.103,"text":"跟委員說明主要還是針對台電公司先提出來的再運轉計畫這部分那包括台電公司再運轉計畫整個的規劃那也會說明河岸會自己本身針對再運轉計畫的審查規劃規劃你們的規劃對譬如說是什麼譬如說因為我們是依法跟有審查導者那依照再運轉計畫的審查導者審查的重點擺在哪裡"},{"start":489.105,"end":512.575,"text":"那讓民眾也知道說會裡面的關心的點跟外部委員都會介入來加入所以你們是希望讓在地的民眾知道說在河岸這一塊你們一定會把關你們的審查是非常嚴謹的然後如果在地的民眾有提出一些疑慮比如說哪個部分他覺得你們沒有做好你們會積極跟他們回應就是你們還是會站在把關的角度"},{"start":513.515,"end":533.643,"text":"就提醒你們去可能會遇到剛剛一些狀況然後另外因為那個主委你之前也有提過你說因為非核家園的關係所以讓我們的核工人才流失所以現在應該要積極的回聘跟培訓那我們現在根據台電的說法因為它的有關於核電廠的人才是"},{"start":534.403,"end":549.837,"text":"是沒有都一直還是保留著啦並沒有因為說核二核三現在沒有在運轉就把他們辭退或什麼都仍然保留但有一個重點就是欲缺不補啦所以他還是有可能會造成一定人才的流失那這個部分我有看到"},{"start":550.878,"end":570.78,"text":"河安會好像也有跟教育部去申請就是留學補助的名額但我覺得那個名額有點好像太少了我們來看一下像這個爭取這個名額是根據賴總統五大信賴產業的這樣的一個計畫去申請的可是像其他這個是五大信賴產業其他產業"},{"start":573.783,"end":601.136,"text":"申請人才的名額就比較多比如說像有關AI的你就可能跟他申請10個10個留學國家的公費補助的名額然後像資通訊也是10個那半導體5個可是呢核子工程相關的就只有3個那核子工程相關其實核子工程它還包括不是只有完全是核能安全啦還有核能研發比如說核融合技術啊核能系統等等"},{"start":602.444,"end":628.004,"text":"那你以這樣子來講主委你認為我們的河工人才夠嗎這個這個留學的名額過去十年河工這個學名是零了對就零啊你有講到嗎因為之前非核嘛所以就斷層啊現在只剩下三個當然我們留學的管道不只是公費留學這個地方還有個人設計獎人金還有"},{"start":630.256,"end":659.654,"text":"以前台電曾經有台電獎學金還有其他的單位也送人出國所以不單是公費留學這條路而已出國留學當然有很多條路但我們就這條路來看人數就比較少啊所以你認為說除了這個之外其他的台電獎學金或是自費的其他加一加現在人是夠的是不是"},{"start":662.445,"end":690.451,"text":"我們只能繼續努力吧希望創造條件讓大家願意走上這個領域所以這個是教育部核定你的名額是不是教育部核定名額那你當初申請幾位我就申請三位所以你申請就比較少啊你不是有設限嗎我們也逐步增加啦從零到三是很大的跳躍那為什麼你當初只有申請三個"},{"start":691.91,"end":707.244,"text":"不是 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謝謝主席那我請部長跟水利署有請彭部長、水利署水利署副署長副署長蘇惠美濤好法定來現在在心理上我有幾個問題要請教你第一個水質改善的問題那你現在今年的水質改善你預算編"},{"start":36.852,"end":38.633,"text":"0.83億,這麼少喔?你知不知道?我知道,我知道以東港市為例,每天站二、三兩下,一天抽水抽氣,羈庸"},{"start":61.269,"end":84.201,"text":"工藥用?還是民生用?不知道啦,都有啦一天二十萬噸那整個東港溪它的長度差不多八十幾公里沿途流是滴液是什麼,這樣一堆你都沒在解釋你的水質改善的KPS是什麼,是怎麼弄還是放料農啊"},{"start":86.345,"end":103.935,"text":"跟委員報告我們水質改善的重點是在嚴重污染策戰的解嚴也就是說從嚴重污染策戰能夠降低到輕度中度污染策戰那過去呢我們已經從九十一年整治一年開始六十六個嚴重污染策戰那現在已經降低到去年的最新資料已經降低到了兩站"},{"start":105.196,"end":122.435,"text":"我想屏東一直以來是我們的一個重點所以我們接下來剛才提到的這個107號變遷縣市館河川的一個經費的編列也謝謝水利署這邊的統籌那在水質改善水環境這邊基本上我們今年有編了大概五億"},{"start":123.736,"end":151.461,"text":"我看115到118年的治水計畫當中你這個水質改善也占不到3%占不到3%那一直強調就是水利署的水利工程提防加高、抽水站那也沒有去要改善水質這一塊那如果這樣的話這個河川整治只是為了防洪這些"},{"start":152.381,"end":179.688,"text":"那你譬如說東港溪作為備用水源這個實質的效率是不是要放棄掉那因為你東港溪現在的水質是比較好啊啊你把土去供口口聲聲說我們要做江峽用水李鳳山水庫那到底有沒有挪到民生用水去我在想有可能會mix在一起啦所以我第一個問題就是"},{"start":182.02,"end":200.189,"text":"水質改善的經費要寬裂這樣太少了啦你全國那麼多主要核酸好像二十幾條你用水質改善再減一個八千幾萬我沒有辦法接受報告委員大概一年五億多啦五億多啦"},{"start":204.39,"end":230.486,"text":"5億4千多萬那個是另外的品項那個跟委員報告那個在水利署跟我們環境部經濟部環境部還有農業部那基本上在行政院有政委在協調成立一個水及流域的永續推動的一個行動計畫那這個計畫向下其實我們也有在針對東港溪的一個特性最水質的一個影響最重要的是畜牧業的一個污染的影響"},{"start":231.326,"end":259.548,"text":"那所以畜牧業的一個處理呢其實我們也有報一個計畫給國安院裡面在這個行動計畫向下呢我們會爭取對於這個畜牧業的一個改善那最重要就放在他的這一個源頭的一個減量甚至可以集中處理之後呢做我們講的這個生殖能的一個找去中心然後呢他的一個找家找藝能你們譬如說農業部跟你們是有在跨部會有在合作吧有嗎還是各做各的"},{"start":261.332,"end":287.864,"text":"包委員那個我說明一下齁你剛剛說的是八千多萬齁那個是我們本部的啦齁那因為因為採劃法之後我們有二十億大概切到一般性的補助款那裡面呢大概有四億一千七百多萬所以加起來大概五億多啦我們也是有啦欸阿只不過就是採劃法過後就是說因為去年委員給我好好念就是說那個我們的預算齁去年我們本部往下掉今年整整體增加了七Percent啦七Percent我們有努力啦還不夠啦欸"},{"start":288.724,"end":308.711,"text":"對啦,環境部的預算太少了啦,應該要增加大幅寬裂啦好,第二個問題,我們到處都在蓋抽水站、堤防加高像我們鋼塞,鋼塞在抽水站,一邊是在抽水,另外一邊鋼塞整個村都很假的所以前兩天想要運水的就是鋼塞村"},{"start":314.43,"end":336.376,"text":"做抽水站,為港塞穿鴨進來抽水站連久失修每次做大水,每次都要一大堆的抽水機在那邊擺在大馬路旁邊每一次都要去關心那這個抽水站本身維護費等等是蠻龐大的水利署現在是怎樣處理"},{"start":344.038,"end":362.382,"text":"因為那是屬於地方管的抽水站就是區域牌的抽水站都是縣政府管的那我們對於縣政府的這個抽水站他們維護的會用是他們自己要處理的但是他如果抽水站有需要更新改善我們就有請他們列到我們的整個計畫就是縣市管河川的那個計畫再來協助他們"},{"start":366.693,"end":384.286,"text":"建制是你們建制沒有建制就是說以前建制就是我們會補助他們做但是他屬於經常性維護的話事實上是由縣政府再來處理也就是說他們由他們自己的預算來處理如果說將來整個抽水站因為年久失修需要更新改善的話那他可以報計畫給我們我們會再來協助"},{"start":387.208,"end":397.695,"text":"他們現在都從旗下到外流就做一個滯洪池就做一個抽水站一四個都要做抽水站有一點像歐洲的荷蘭"},{"start":399.266,"end":416.562,"text":"到處都是等等等DAM那這樣是釜底抽薪的方法嗎這第一個第二個到處都是等都是站然後抽然後這個東西要有專人管理還有那些機械的東西顧攏會派"},{"start":419.425,"end":432.166,"text":"維修有沒有到位洪水來 大水要來 颱風要來到底有沒有辦法發揮功能這個是我們比較關心的環境部理事要扮演什麼角色"},{"start":433.031,"end":453.408,"text":"我們未來如果說調試的部分他們現在是由水利署主責水及流域的計畫是他們主責我們跟他們在他們大的計畫裡面那我覺得未來他們算是氣候變遷調試的一環那我們會跟他們協助說未來像委員提到的整體的規劃是不是要有更好一點點那是不是請副署長回答那我想整個"},{"start":454.468,"end":474.876,"text":"屏東因為他有比較地勢比較低也就是說他的地都可能比海平面還低了那變成說水下來了以後那他變成要排出來就變成要靠機械抽排那另外一個就是不然就是做自容池來或是做淨流分擔除流管制的方式來把水暫存在土地上那我想"},{"start":475.276,"end":504.866,"text":"水屬對於這個地化地區的一個治水的一些治理的方式也都有在調整那我目前大概都會推在地製紘跟一個淨油分擔或是出流管制來搭配來做那我想做抽水站都是最後所不得不也是比較快的方式沒有錯但是後續我們也會協助縣政府來就整個抽水站的部分怎麼讓他更完備因為每年我們大概都有在協助縣政府在檢查他們的抽水站是不是有完整那對於淹水改善就會有幫助"},{"start":505.086,"end":522.152,"text":"所以你這個職責是下放給縣市政府自己平常就要維修自己要keep function就對了第一個那是他們自己主管的當然就是依照地方制度就是他們自己要來維修來維護好再來第三個問題多元垃圾處理你編的5億4990萬那"},{"start":530.731,"end":550.231,"text":"屏東就掩埋場就有三個嘛,東港、東寮跟遠村那我們的葫蘆就一個是崁頂嘛那這樣的話這三個掩埋場到底現在的功能好像越搞越糟糕然後你的KPI是怎麼樣?署長"},{"start":554.008,"end":574.94,"text":"報告委員,現在它的掩埋廠還是有一些空間當然它的焚化廠目前運作也慢慢有效率有提高整個KPI我們還是希望它對於整個自己屏東地區的垃圾處理能夠自主大概是這樣子"},{"start":579.798,"end":597.597,"text":"因為我們最近有補助他們有一個轉運的東西因為上次有颱風有毀壞我們有一些補助那也希望說因為目前其實屏東他在這個裸露的垃圾處理還蠻有成效的但是這個未來也蠻想活化如何處理我們會來再大力的加強協助"},{"start":599.238,"end":617.69,"text":"我稍微再補充一下感謝委員那個屏東最主要可能就是小琉球地區的垃圾轉運那委員很關心那這個部分在經費上面委員的支持我們也有籌到經費給予支持以上好謝謝那再來"},{"start":620.412,"end":628.315,"text":"經濟部搞了十幾億還是億多的促銷袋要出來市面上你們這邊是在減速"},{"start":636.021,"end":661.09,"text":"你剪塑膠袋 做塑膠袋只有一個塑膠袋打個仗塑膠袋都扯不清我們這邊還是減塑啦就是說我們現在大概已經有超過70幾家的企業這個願意大型的企業都是提供塑膠袋然後我們正在媒合那現在這個已經越來越多了我據我所知已經有幾十萬個塑膠袋不是"},{"start":661.71,"end":680.138,"text":"我們不是塑膠袋是環保袋紙袋已經可以供市場上運用我們希望把它變成一個長期的措施啦那經濟部呢他們做那個塑膠袋用因為增產儀器因為我們的那種手提式塑膠袋台灣已經不做了都是進口來的那當然例如說中國他已經這個"},{"start":682.179,"end":710.841,"text":"自己都不夠了所以它馬上就會斷掉我們這邊的量所以我們只好經濟部請這個中油趕快來台塑趕快來做這些事情那我們還是覺得趁這個機會好好推減塑啦阿目前這個經濟部這一次提供的好幾億個這個塑料袋是那種用disposable的還是就是所謂的一公斤是手提式的就是我們去市場拿拿的那個用好就丟掉還是還是環保袋其實不是環保袋就是一次性的啦"},{"start":711.361,"end":739.348,"text":"那當然一次性的那個也可以用很多次啦所以我們是希望說趁這個機會因為的確因為有一個因為台灣有時候民眾是很敏感的一覺得說可能會恐慌每個人都去買結果每個人去買就把這個存量全部都吃光光所以現在的確我們也發現說很多人都反映塑膠袋漲得很嚴重啦所以我相信經濟部是在穩定的穩定這個物價穩定大家不要不方便所以經濟部的觀念就是讓你不要叫"},{"start":740.248,"end":762.577,"text":"就趕快增加增產然後來迎合市面上的需要是那你們的立場是我們是希望減碩因為未來我相信這個塑膠工業未來會推動的話其實這個會的確會有更強大的法律會要求每一個國家好還有問題啊但是時間到了主席站起來了再接著問謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168718","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168718","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5880b40c5769f1f3c70ee559604bb463812774c6aab6af4f2050ed7b2b649bcd073220c318363b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭正鈐","委員發言時間":"11:01:56 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我想請一下進一步 龔明慶工部長"},{"start":20.429,"end":38.177,"text":"部長好 因為我們現在在處理經濟部的預算的問題那我想說先關心一個部分就是我們之前一直很關心的沒宣費 從去年關心到現在那我覺得比較有趣的一點是說今年的預算數 就115年的預算數的時候整個經濟部"},{"start":42.8,"end":61.234,"text":"就是比114年的決算數多了47%整體來說多了47%可是經濟部部門部的部分增加134%這比例非常非常的高然後另外就是有關於中小級新創企業署增加135%"},{"start":64.092,"end":75.743,"text":"然後這個產業局增加142這部分都是超過百分之百的增加率的部分我特別挑出來那我當然是要問一下部長為什麼這幾個單位他的"},{"start":79.417,"end":93.161,"text":"增加的數量會這麼多那我同時提出幾個單位他們的預算數比114年的法定預算數減少包括了國貿數少了57%能源數少了64%"},{"start":99.966,"end":122.953,"text":"然後我們產業園區管理局少了76%它經濟部的這樣子的一個大單位當中的時候那有些單位他們可以把這部分控制得很好而且還進一步的減少可是部本部的部分的時候還有相關單位的時候成長到百分之百以上這是什麼一回事 可不可以請部長做個回應我是不是請會計師說明一下"},{"start":125.637,"end":149.478,"text":"謝謝委員關心我這邊補充說明一下我們經濟部的部分在沒宣業務增加主要包括像經濟部是增加了589萬那是科技專案計畫因為要用於推動推廣科技專案的研發成果擴散效益那另外還有就是我們要宣傳政府的重大產業政策然後還有一些掌握政策資訊所以部裡面有增加了大概589萬"},{"start":152.06,"end":172.582,"text":"讓你們說這部分的時候呢我可以理解就有些部分我們可能要增加可是增加到134%然後增加到135%增加到142%我覺得其實已經有一些不合理但我們在審預算的時候我們會特別提到我們會特別關注這個部分我們希望"},{"start":173.483,"end":191.881,"text":"該用則用不該用的部分我們一定要減下來就像我剛才有特別提到有很多單位他們也是都減少下來啊成員區管理局他們也都節省下來啊能源署也都節省下來就很好的一個狀態我們希望當用則用不當用的時候我們一毛錢都不能夠讓他隨便的亂用"},{"start":193.683,"end":220.235,"text":"包委員因為比如說這個中小企業處因為它是中小微的一些發展所以它的宣傳力道尤其是我們中小微振興理解 這都沒有問題可是增加135%我覺得還是很多所以我們到時候會嚴格來把關那我接下來還想問一個部分就是我們看到經濟部的一個預算當中在營業基金的部分有一個地方"},{"start":221.155,"end":245.23,"text":"就是一億兩千七百萬金額不大 可是它很特殊因為它直接新增國庫增資台電 中油 台糖 台水這個部分 而且指定用途再買無人機的部分那我想 我很疑惑因為油電糖水這四大公司"},{"start":246.05,"end":272.051,"text":"都是千億級以上的一個規模啦那買無人機的部分我們覺得該買我覺得也很好即使說是經濟部有一個大方向覺得要發展台灣的無人機產業鏈我們覺得要支持本席也支持可是為什麼對於油電糖水四大公司千億級以上的公司可是增加的增資的部分是350萬"},{"start":275.935,"end":287.707,"text":"880萬 1000多萬 8000多萬金額來說都很少而且指定用途在買無人機如果油電糖水四大公司他們要用無人機來增加他們的一個"},{"start":290.906,"end":309.675,"text":"運作上面的一些效率本席也支持可是為什麼是用增資的方式可不可以請部長做個說明因為它是一個設備它是投入一個設備投入設備就要用增資的方式給然後這麼少的金額所以油電糖水四個董事會他們都已經有開過這個董事"},{"start":311.916,"end":333.391,"text":"會通過要增加350萬增加880萬這樣子的一個規模增資案嗎如果說是因為虧損的狀態因為之前我們看到的狀態都是希望有幾百億上千億的一個增資案的情況因為現在就是因為我們經濟部就是負責整個無人機的統籌型計畫那這個統籌型計畫就有編列一個預算那給經濟部嘛那經濟部當然採買以後是給各油電藏水他來使用巡檢啊等等一些情況"},{"start":341.756,"end":363.46,"text":"但是不是免費補助他給他用等於是我們投資他增加了我理解這個狀態因為如果說是補助他們給他們的東西這個也相對可以理解因為用增資這個狀態的時候因為整個程序因為最主要是油電糖水規模太大了"},{"start":364.2,"end":391.804,"text":"那你給他們這個無人機是經濟部採購之後給他們的狀態所以用增資的方式去解決這個程序上的問題是這樣子的一個情況嗎那是無常的OK 那本席想要特別關注的狀態是因為油電糖水他們現在大部分的公司本來也都有無人機本來就有在無人機他們如果是營業上面使用的時候他們用他們自己本身的經費我覺得也可以不一定是要經濟部買了之後"},{"start":392.864,"end":417.723,"text":"當聖誕老人再發給這油電糖水這四大公司針對這個部分我希望說我們基部能夠特別考量一下因為如果說是用這樣子的方式給的時候我個人覺得並沒有特別的一個妥適當然我們對於無人機產業是支持的我們也覺得台灣很有機會發展無人機產業可是用這樣的方式來給就是油電糖水"},{"start":418.123,"end":424.317,"text":"他們這樣的一個爭執的一個方式本心覺得不太需要那麼也不是那麼的適合好不好"},{"start":425.843,"end":452.536,"text":"因為我們也不是白給他啦就是說因為我們別列預算總是要有用途那用途的話等於是我們這筆錢是對於油電糖水的部分完全理解啦因為油電糖水這千億級的公司當中的時候他們自己用他們的一個營業的經費就足以去買這些無人機那我另外要特別問的狀態是因為它是非軍用的無人機那現在我們這些"},{"start":453.837,"end":483.137,"text":"油電糖水他們要採購的無人機有沒有特別要求去中化去中化的標準到哪些是百分之百的去中化零組件都不行還是一個什麼樣的狀態基本上是要要求是非紅的全部百分之百所有的零組件都不行沒有他有階段性的就是說這應該在2027年2011應該是我記得啦不是2027年或2028年之前因為有一些東西因為比如說"},{"start":484.657,"end":500.825,"text":"牽涉到磁鐵因為中國還是掌握大部分那那個部分因為不涉及到資訊安全的問題那那個部分可以在短時間裡面還是有針對這個部分的時候我之後再給本席一個很詳細的一個標準跟進程"},{"start":501.445,"end":522.654,"text":"因為我們經濟部這邊採購的部分它基本上是非軍用的部分那我們在想說我們的標準在哪裡然後在現階段當中的時候要如何逐步的去排除非紅供應鏈的問題因為目前有很多的部分感覺上是排除不了所以我們也很希望知道說那經濟部作為一個整個無人機產業的一個主管單位的時候"},{"start":523.974,"end":552.176,"text":"那麼他是怎麼樣來看待這件事情最後一個部分我想問一個狀態因為零四就是四月四號的時候有一個大水就是大水的部分那水利署這邊有特別提到就是84%的地方在兩小時之內就退了那我想知道的狀態是那另外16%的地方有86個點16%的地方是哪些地方他沒有退那是什麼原因"},{"start":553.622,"end":579.743,"text":"報告委員確實有一些地點有一些淹了比較長時間尤其像苗栗像苗栗的一個後龍溪的支流沙河溪因為它那邊有些護岸跟橋樑的問題那這個也是縣政府跟我們會共同來努力改善OK喔那我特別想要關注一個狀態喔你到時候你再給我很詳細知道說這百分之有大概都在苗栗還是還有其他的地方新竹這邊有沒有相關的部分"},{"start":580.424,"end":606.481,"text":"那我另外想要特別追就是因為我們在我們有五項延續性的計劃啦那麼到114年7月份為止的時候我質詢力都不好可是它只到去年7月因為統計數字只有到7月那在五項計劃當中的時候包括離島地區供水改善計劃第三期那吳志達水地區供水改善計劃第五期那麼接下來第三項的中央管流域整體改善與調適計劃"},{"start":607.882,"end":629.298,"text":"這個部分就跟淹水這部分有很大的關係那它的那個執行率情況都不高那麼第四個水災的智慧防災計畫第二期這也跟我們這次淹水有相關比較大的地方那實現率也都不高那地下水保育管理及地層下限防治計畫第四期這部分這五個都是跨年度的一個"},{"start":630.599,"end":655.302,"text":"執行的狀態那我們看到去年的狀態似乎執行率都不好還是說到年底他已經很明顯的提高了報告委員這一些計畫主要的特性都是補助地方政府那我們的水利的工作他的一個特性都是一些工程到最後結算他才會一次性的給付所以依照過去經驗我們都可以達到95%以上沒有好那這樣很好喔"},{"start":657.003,"end":678.779,"text":"那我想說我另外特別關注一下就是有關於新竹市在113年度前瞻預算我看到這個數字當中的時候坦白說新竹市在整體來說職權力已經是好的了可是因為它畢竟離百分之百還有一些距離所以本席也想特別知道新竹市的一個詳細的狀態"},{"start":681.2,"end":697.886,"text":"因為68.57的一個執行率的一個治理的一個百分比在全國來說已經算是前段班了可是我們好還希望更好所以針對新竹市這邊為什麼沒有辦法達成就是更好的一個數字在請最水屬之後到本辦公室給"},{"start":698.806,"end":707.839,"text":"本席一個很詳細的一個狀態然後新竹市這邊還有哪些地方要特別去處理就是請這邊也給我一個本席詳細的內容我們會照辦沒問題謝謝委員好 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但它會被列在哪一筆啊"},{"start":164.512,"end":171.314,"text":"退出幾戶那這一筆的話那我們就要也會注意就是說我們到時候在審查的時候我們也會注意那要讓這一筆他是能夠afford就是說整體的這個規劃的因為我們的想法很簡單就是卓院長這邊有談到了說這半年內會盤點整體的軍公教的這個權益的部分那當然我們大多數人談到的會是這個軍人的這個家籍"},{"start":190.58,"end":202.147,"text":"然後自願意的加急還有包含是說可能這個退休的這個警消人員的所得替代率但我就很擔心說漏了我們這一項這個不小心漏了我們這一項所以謝謝我們主委積極的爭取那我想在審查預算的時候我們也會盡我們的全力來支持那但是就是要拜託那一定要讓這個案子也在"},{"start":212.433,"end":240.87,"text":"評估的總項目裡面最後結果如何我不知道你們盡力爭取但是在現在這半年內所評估的這個總體來說的話他要被能夠納進去因為他也是軍警校的一環所以因為我們比較常講的是大的項目就是在講說軍人的加薪案跟警校的所得替代率案常常會忘記我們還有一個上校與下的子女補助費的這個部分我希望這個案子也能夠順利被納入行政院的討論當中對 我們要繼續保持密切聯繫"},{"start":241.55,"end":262.382,"text":"嗯好的那這個再來就是我們要講到這個有關於我們的榮民喔那包含他們可能志願役服滿十年以上啊因為作戰或是這個公治病傷的這個有一些傷害啊或者是說像這樣子的一些這個榮民那我覺得呢我們是要多去協助的"},{"start":262.782,"end":285.624,"text":"那剛才也有這個委員有提到關於這個輔導會有值無值的這個榮民及軍警消補助的部分那我們可以看到的是有值榮民的部分呢在國軍醫院裡面的部分負擔裡面是沒有的然後部立醫院是沒有的我這個剛剛有人問過了但是我想我覺得用一張表格來講會更加的清楚"},{"start":286.064,"end":309.769,"text":"那我想請問一下這個部分那當然你們有3月30號退府會含送行政院4月1號行政院這個複製退府會那轉達各部會的意見包含國防部跟總計處等等我們大概要到什麼時候才能夠比較清楚這些有職榮民因為他們是中高齡的勞工了那多半很多人有慢性病長期需要就醫"},{"start":310.509,"end":334.028,"text":"那容總離他們可能很遠那為了要省下這個醫療費用的話他要請假跨區奔波就醫延誤治療還會被扣薪水這個其實是我們收到的這個陳情那我認為托福會是非常有心要幫忙解決的所以我想要請問一下這個部分接下來接下來我們大概會用什麼樣的一個進度就比較具體的進度去把這個案子能夠走下去"},{"start":335.675,"end":361.502,"text":"謝謝委員我個人認為有職農民到軍醫院他是更有需要因為當初當軍人的時候都在軍院做體檢所有的資料都在軍院裡面是非常完整的所以有職農民到軍院我們現在也繼續爭取那我們的委員已經送到行政院對就是因為我們回到上一章給大家看一下已經完成相關的一些就是您說這個退輔會有職農民在國軍醫院裡面沒有部分負擔補助這個部分嘛對不對"},{"start":364.163,"end":384.053,"text":"去年九月是完成了榮院的一個補助都完成了現在我們就算是推到軍醫院所以推到軍醫院目前都正常所以軍醫院的核准下來了嗎現在目前還沒有但我們上個禮拜還在跟院裡面各處在協調那我們大概在什麼時候會比較能夠確認當然我們也很急我們也希望能夠盡快"},{"start":389.656,"end":416.363,"text":"那未來如果軍醫院能夠過了之後那對於部立醫院的部分我們有沒有考慮再進一步的提出所以我們後面可能繼續再去爭取好 那我們在這個退伏會爭取的過程當中有任何需要我們協助的地方那可以跟我們說喔是 謝謝委員對 因為我最後補充跟大家補充一下就是現在呢 少子化所以當兵的人也少那麼呢 這個但我們國軍有很大的這個招募的需求"},{"start":416.983,"end":442.939,"text":"那招募員在前面招募他們也很辛苦那主要呢他們除了看一般平常的薪資之外那你一個年輕人要選擇要不要去個工作那除了看這個工作薪資也會考慮他退休以後的福利待遇是否有符合這份工作他應該要有的譬如說像很多其他國家像是韓國或是其他國家他們是對於退伍的軍人是有很多的保障"},{"start":443.439,"end":459.045,"text":"那這一塊退幅會很努力在做可是我不希望因為單位小或者是它是已經退休了我們不應該因為退休了之後好像就變成它視為比較不重要的我們只在乎在職的而不在乎退休的因為如果這樣子失衡的話就會使在前線招募的人他們也有困難因為我們在選擇一個行業的時候我不會只看我現在能夠領多少"},{"start":466.167,"end":473.07,"text":"我也會看我20年就要退伍了那我退伍以後我的轉職路線怎麼辦我也沒有一些相關的福利跟補助這也是為他們考量的一個這個項目所以我覺得反過來講就是我們退伍會做得好我們退伍會能夠被上級機關重視那他對於在前線招募軍人的這些招募員來講是一大福利"},{"start":488.978,"end":497.044,"text":"所以用這樣子去想的話其實退輔會的整個重要性都上來了所以非常謝謝我們園主委的努力那未來有任何需要協助的部分我們都會繼續為榮民發聲謝謝謝謝委員指導"}]}},{"id":"168716","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168716","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5880b40c5769f1870a0cc29684718269f826bc43123a8d4f2050ed7b2b649be4add9a9fc88eabd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"10:56:47 - 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剛才也有委員都提到我們整個海巡署 有人力的缺口它不是單純只有高層副署長的缺口而是有整個的人力缺口比如說我在這邊看到的就是包含審計部 審計部他也提出來在去年就提出來說我們海巡近六成的艦艇人力都沒有達到配置的基準"},{"start":87.771,"end":116.922,"text":"所以這當然對於我們的海巡同仁來講其實讓他們其實會有一個他們的任務過重的問題就是近九成的艦艇人力沒有達到配置的基準那另外呢也根據我們立法院的預算中心他們的資料也就是我們近年海巡人力缺額的情形一直長期都存在而且呢實際的員額一直都逐年的遞減"},{"start":118.482,"end":136.008,"text":"實際的員額都比前一年還要少那可以說從109年開始除了看到113年112是增加兩人之外每一年都在減少中所以我們現在其實我們的預算員額跟我們的實際的員額這個缺額是高達1300多人高達1300多人所以我想請問一下我們署長"},{"start":146.952,"end":163.706,"text":"也就是在海巡的部分我們同意曾社副署長在這個業務督導的上面能夠補足人力缺口但是我們基層的海巡人員的人力缺口現在要怎麼樣能夠讓它縮小要短期間補足我看都非常非常的困難"},{"start":165.675,"end":191.864,"text":"這邊跟委員報告 這要分兩塊來做 兩塊說明第一個部分就是在艦船艇的部分 另外一部分就是岸際的軍職人力部分那在艦船艇的部分就要特別跟委員說明我們每一艘船出去都要符合航港的相關的規範也就是你這艘船最基本要配置誰 要船長、大副、輪機長這些而且船員 而且這些人都要拿到取得證照才能上船"},{"start":192.344,"end":219.944,"text":"所以我們船只要一開出去的人一定是夠的所有很多符合證件規範的要不然你發生事故了保險不理賠然後可能要面對這個罰則這也是我們在艦船警人力部分那艦船警人力部分來源有四種第一個部分就是警大跟警專警察大學我們因為他要受訓四年所以我們在四年前就預框我們未來要多少人力所以他就會把人力框進去開始受訓"},{"start":220.905,"end":248.006,"text":"然後景專是兩年我們在兩年前就把我們預估的人力扣進去所以最近這幾年我們人力原來從景大是從20個人現在增加到40個那景專的部分是從80個增加到160個也就是目前我們每一年光從景大跟景專畢業學生就有200個人會進來到我們的那個那個艦隊分屬的艦船艦部分另外一個部分我們靠我們是透過特考"},{"start":248.726,"end":274.897,"text":"然後另外一部分是技術職類的特稿像輪機長什麼這些航海科這些進來那這些進來就會進到我們的這個艦隊分組另外一個部分就是我們現在的君子同仁有一部分是希望到艦上服務的那我們給他授訓取得船員資格他就可以到艦上服務所以基本上我們艦隊分組的人力基本上他是沒有問題的另外根據交船的期程人總會給我們這個請徵員額加進來"},{"start":278.098,"end":300.568,"text":"所以這個部分其實在健身部門上面的原則基本上是沒有問題的那另外在按激的部分因為去年有加了幾項的加激所以我們那個數據可能這一個不管是監察院的數據大概都統計到114上半年但是從114下半年三項加激以後所以你說114年下半年去年下半年人力已經大幅的補充了我們的招募的達成率已經將近九成了"},{"start":306.89,"end":316.303,"text":"將近九成 然後我們的流質 那個流影的流影率增加了百分之七那我們一百一四年 其實我們人力是正成長的正成長的"},{"start":318.147,"end":333.643,"text":"114年 成長了400多人另外跟國防部報告還有部分就是那個EWE的補進來我們有跟國防部申請EWE一年給我們總共給我們440個人所以我們人力加進來其實沒有這樣 如果按照你你剛才所回答的部分包含警大警專還有你們招募人員以及還有來自於這個應該國防部的"},{"start":339.289,"end":358.711,"text":"一線一軍人他們的轉到我們的海巡署你說所以現在人力的補充的部分現在已經獲得解決了嗎我們是逐年增加啦但是沒有因為他缺額原來是缺額一千多塊降到九寶頭現在降到七百塊所以我們希望的是不是只有這個高層的人力要補足"},{"start":359.352,"end":385.527,"text":"基層的人力要補助好 那再請教一個問題也就是說我們在任性特別預算的部分那麼海巡署準備要買451架無人機準備買451架無人機那當然我覺得現在全世界包含因為你們的這個業務非常繁重不管是偷渡啦 走私啦或者是有這個抽砂船等等"},{"start":386.307,"end":410.55,"text":"那我想請問一下現在我們的海巡署有關於就是零有這個無人機操作證照的人員的配置目前有沒有問題因為當然我們買了這個無人機我們希望也要有相當的人力能夠去做操作不要變成說有機無人雖然它是無人機但是它仍然要有人操作"},{"start":411.401,"end":435.377,"text":"跟委員報告 我們現在零六鎮罩的人員有將近七百個人這是我們自訓的部分喔那另外我們每一採購每一款的無人機它上面就有規範就是你要幫我訓練多少個飛手加進來那這些四款無人機加進來有將近兩千個飛手那加進來我們自訓另外一部分跟委員報告我們現在自己 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院會進行同意權行使時由莊教級委員瑞雄出席說明三 本院各黨團隊被提名人資格及失任性所提書面問題以及總統府秘書長韓富被提名人所提供相關資料均列入紀錄刊登公報四 委員詢問時要求提供相關資料或以書面答覆者請相關機關盡速送交個別委員及本聯席會宣讀完畢"},{"start":1663.72,"end":1686.334,"text":"接著我們介紹在場委員跟應邀列席的官員先介紹在場委員我們陳昭之委員接著介紹應邀列席的官員今天我們還有會管碧玲主委請教由我們政務副主委兼海巡署署長張忠榮副主委"},{"start":1687.728,"end":1712.449,"text":"還有海洋保育署副署長施易哲副署長國家海洋研究院副院長張志維副院長權序部法規室專門委員蕭立榮專委行政院主計總處公務預算處專門委員邱碧珠邱專委行政院人事行政總處主編人力處處長邱怡章邱處長"},{"start":1715.538,"end":1719.96,"text":"接下來其餘到場的還有我們王美惠王委員請問各位三位上次會議意思錄有無錯誤或遺漏"},{"start":1736.229,"end":1760.177,"text":"沒有的話沒有錯誤或遺漏的話我們議事錄就確定那其餘未介紹的列席代表請參與名單就不再逐一介紹並列入公報記錄那本次的議程討論事項排定並案審查海洋委員會海巡署組織法第三條及第十一條條文的修正案共計九案"},{"start":1763.098,"end":1788.114,"text":"因為第九案目前尚未受到各黨團簽署的不附議同意書按照開會通知單我們所在我們就不予審查現在我們來進行委員的提案說明每一位委員發言時間三分鐘提案委員王美惠委員不用來"},{"start":1790.493,"end":1802.31,"text":"那我們就進行機關代表的報告啦每一位發言時間就三分鐘我們現在有請我們海洋委員會政務副主委兼海巡署署長張忠榮副主委"},{"start":1808.3,"end":1826.039,"text":"主席 各位委員 縣進 各位女士 先生 大家早安 大家好感謝委員會邀請本會列席今天的會議有關海洋委員會海巡組組織法第三條以及第十一條修正查案請再要報告如下那第一個部分要報告的是修法的原由"},{"start":1826.559,"end":1848.006,"text":"海岸委員會海巡署下轄有七個分署一個專防分署以及一個教育訓練測考中心那執行轄內的所有的海域海岸巡防事項跟海域海岸犯罪以及安全調查等業務從107年起配合行政院的組織調整以後海巡署由二級機關調整為三級機關組織設置改由政務的"},{"start":1852.133,"end":1878.151,"text":"由政府的副署長一人常務的副署長兩人調整為常務的副署長兩人然而海巡署的維護範圍遍及全國除了台灣本島怪里島以外還有涉及東沙跟南沙等偏遠的地區那各項執法的工作遏止不法的走私偷渡以及權力作法邊境防疫阻絕槍支毒品被周柱溫以及非法人員"},{"start":1880.031,"end":1881.314,"text":"貨物入境並且強調"},{"start":1883.615,"end":1910.067,"text":"加強取締中國大陸的違法的越界抽砂船還有越界旅船等工作積極維護海域治安以及邊境防疫跟捍衛海洋權益那第二部分要報告的是近來台灣周邊海域的情勢日益複雜海巡署肩負國安、治安、平安等三大任務除了持續強化海域監偵群以及巡域並且聯合雷達空拍還有無人載具等相關的"},{"start":1912.254,"end":1937.955,"text":"這個機動的勤務的部署密切監控大陸公務以及民兵船的動態防範揮帶行動的洗澡以及影響國安跟海域秩序並且配合國軍各年度的各項戰訓的時機共同聯合陸軍海軍實施指管通勤以及各項戰術的演練新增的軍事四項任務影響到這個影響到勤務的執行非常的重大那另外一部分要報告的是"},{"start":1939.093,"end":1959.594,"text":"配合行政新世代反無毒策略 加強打擊各項毒品犯罪 海軍可證積極建設各項的企圖設備強化科技培訓的效能 分析比對毒品犯罪組織跟網絡以精準打擊毒品犯罪向上溯源 以達到劇毒於境外 攔截於海上岸際的目的"},{"start":1960.695,"end":1981.056,"text":"另外海巡組近年來更積極以周邊國家擴展相關的合作機制共同維護海上航行跟作業的安全並且跟美國美日非等國家共同舉辦海上各項的做推實兵演練相互交流搜救經驗跟技術建立聯繫合作的平台陸續簽署各項的合作協定"},{"start":1983.578,"end":2000.247,"text":"動進中遠程的國際搜救合作以利去各區域的實際發生案例的時候能夠有效的協同應處那另外114年發生多起權益輪以及在我國管轄水域停留造成通訊電纜的中斷那這些事項在檢察官的指揮下"},{"start":2004.989,"end":2017.673,"text":"可以便是船舶以及海上許可下我們都提都是海巡都是去加強追緝燈檢然後將涉案的船舶帶岸那另外本組這次的海巡署的組織法修正旨在強化領導階層以應對各轄區內騙"},{"start":2021.954,"end":2035.673,"text":"及全國廣達50萬平方公里的海域防線專業領導的高度差異跟龐大預算人員規模以及因應國際形勢配合推動平站轉換以及提升國安任性等重要政策透過充實領導"},{"start":2037.895,"end":2061.16,"text":"階層高階人力的相宜署務並且參著同署國安團隊的警政署跟調查局都是三位副首長的配置依據中央行政機關組織基金法第十九條第三項規定政治副首長一人那本次修正的重點為修正第三條政治副首長一人以及第十一條修正後的條文公佈自公佈入企實施"},{"start":2062.06,"end":2075.712,"text":"那再次感謝各位委員對於海巡署的各項的協助跟支持海巡署面臨國安、治安、平安等多項的挑戰增至第三位副署長將能夠相禮屬務是有其必要性"},{"start":2076.912,"end":2092.102,"text":"未來我們將以科技創新、精準執法跟智慧決策為核心建構海空一體進入海巡的專業執法團隊持續全面守護國家海洋權益並且促進海洋永續的發展以上報告敬請各位委員指教跟支持好 謝謝張副主委那其餘列席機關有沒有口頭補充"},{"start":2103.087,"end":2124.472,"text":"沒有的話那我們現在機關代表都已經報告完畢了相關書面內容請各位來參閱並列入公報記錄現在我們開始來進行詢問由於今天是聯席會發言的人數會比較多而且在詢問以後接續進行法案的一個審查那伊利本聯席委員會詢問時間8分鐘就是6加2"},{"start":2134.161,"end":2154.151,"text":"六分鐘因為聯席我們就六分鐘就好了六分鐘主席重新再更正一下本聯席會委員詢答時間六分鐘非聯席會委員時間詢答時間三分鐘均不再延長上午十點半截止發言登記現在請登記第一位成招之委員來做詢答專業在實驗室要質詢的請問要叫什麼"},{"start":2161.703,"end":2166.51,"text":"謝謝主席 但是六分鐘聽了又很難過六分鐘 刷了我善略以後多給你兩個小時謝謝主席 有請副主委有請張副主委"},{"start":2179.423,"end":2182.586,"text":"副主席早 我們的時間我要短那你也請你簡短回答副主席 去年行政院核定了國軍戰鬥部隊加級的調整方案那請你看一下這個影片目前國軍加級制度當中第一類的戰鬥"},{"start":2193.618,"end":2198.32,"text":"部隊是加擠了有五千調到一萬二第二類是由三千調到七千那你可以看出來整個這個政府在國軍體系當中它是依據任務的性質還有它的風險程度來調整像第一線我們知道就是步兵、炮兵、裝甲那這是戰鬥單位那第二類就是化學工兵跟通訊這屬於支援單位那我想請教去年海巡也有做了一個加擠調整那你依據什麼標準就請你簡單的說明用什麼標準來這個做調整"},{"start":2221.208,"end":2228.589,"text":"跟委員報告 我們的所有的加擠標準是按照國防部的相關的標準來計好 按照國防部 好 謝謝 謝謝副主委那如果是按照這個風險跟任務嘛 它目的是怎樣我簡述了本次海巡的加擠的調整內容請您看一下這個圖表 非常具體的問題我發現了喔 那個你看看那個岸巡隊跟查緝隊完全沒有領到這個海巡部隊加擠喔目前的就是東南沙這個海岸邊防機關是從三千提高到七千"},{"start":2248.553,"end":2262.95,"text":"那同樣的同樣是東南沙離島單位的暗巡中隊是從五千提到一萬二然而暗巡隊這個查緝部隊是零同屬於第一線勤務卻出現零跟一萬二的這個巨大落差所以我請教副組委您認為暗巡隊的這個勤務是比較輕鬆"},{"start":2266.474,"end":2274.383,"text":"安全嗎?你認定他不屬於第一線嗎?因此不需要有這個加擠嗎?安巡隊可是24小時巡邏,輪班巡訪查緝人員要持槍,持槍執勤那進行查緝任務,如果這樣不算第一線,什麼叫做第一線呢?"},{"start":2281.731,"end":2295.887,"text":"跟委員報告我們這有區分兩個部分來說明第一個部分就是國軍的這個部分我們在少校以下連級的部份的所有單位支援的海巡跟戰隊部隊加級是跟國防部一模一樣的部分"},{"start":2296.428,"end":2317.537,"text":"那另外在這個相當旅籍以上的這一個也就是上校以上的單位跟國防部的幕僚相同都沒有指引相關的這些家計那另外在有關查緝隊的部分這我想委員特別關心我覺得那個重點他這就是第一線嘛他在第一線作戰嘛對這第一線的部分我們現在領的是跟國防部一模一樣的"},{"start":2318.602,"end":2337.35,"text":"但是我剛剛指出來這個表很清楚啦那個他們做了個暗巡隊查緝隊我們稍微來看一下他的內容那我麻煩副主委你看一下右邊也是一樣東南沙進行這個巡防作業東南沙分屬案的暗巡中隊有一萬二加計但是同屬東南沙分屬的內勤兄弟就沒有他只有七千塊錢"},{"start":2340.171,"end":2368.225,"text":"那一樣都是一線前線作戰風險我也有差別在於這個跟國防您剛剛說按照國防的這個前線部隊的加緊落差很大副主委所以我是建議要跟國防部一個標準啦在前線前線都是要一萬二啦而且東南沙這個分屬的地胸因為更遠喔應該是要再考慮這個不管你叫偏遠啊外這個地域加緊這個都是應該是比較妥當我可不可以請副主委您回去再做一次檢討好嗎"},{"start":2370.347,"end":2395.439,"text":"跟委員報告 第一個部分 剛剛關心的查緝隊部分查緝隊部分我們從104年就開始爭取但是人事總署一直到現在都沒有同意因為他認為查緝隊是上下班所以他沒有領但是在我們基層的暗巡隊的部分在包括這個安檢所 包括基隆學院站他是有領的 但是在隊部裡面辦公的這些幕僚他是沒有領的 國務部也是一樣"},{"start":2395.759,"end":2398.88,"text":"各位我收到這個查緝對君子同仁陳情查緝對事實上情務包括什麼滲透部件安全這個情報蒐集查事走私偷渡犯罪偵辦藍船臨檢持槍出擊整個過程當中要長時間的埋伏蒐證日夜顛倒甚至要面對犯罪對象"},{"start":2416.266,"end":2419.928,"text":"這個風險是很高耶那你依照現行的那個危險職務加級這個當中就是說你有認定就有些危險加級那所以我要請問同樣執行高風險查緝任務的軍職查緝隊人員不僅沒有危險那個職務加級也沒有被納入這個海巡部隊加級啊"},{"start":2434.033,"end":2458.768,"text":"所以這樣難道不會影響到第一線弟兄的他們的士氣跟留任嗎你不能再檢討嗎跟委員報告我們這部分非常重視我們這一次就是針對這個部分調整部分我們現在整個檢整那管組委特別重視這個部分那已經有跟行政院溝通就是我們整個包括沒有辦法比照國防部那國防部認定不一樣或者是人事走出認為不一樣的部分我們一併一次檢討然後把它加到這一個家族"},{"start":2463.131,"end":2466.952,"text":"主委今天沒有出席他自己講的海巡是用生命在守護國家安全他認為加薪是起碼的這個情況下我是希望說海巡隊跟查緝隊納入海巡部隊的加給至少要7000元以上今天時間有限主席不給我足夠時間今天我們也看到我們的元首要出訪遇到了這些"},{"start":2493.398,"end":2513.656,"text":"總總的一些為難跟困境那我想請教如果台海衝突因為目前我們的海巡是比照所謂的第二海軍他按照北約模式國防預算是在這個地方那平常我們認為他是第二海軍但是遇到台海衝突的時候我想知道您覺得海巡的角色是什麼"},{"start":2515.213,"end":2531.802,"text":"跟委員報告我們在碰到柴海這個沖土部分的時候那第一線的部分就是第一次在初期碰到群之碰到初期處理平時是第二海軍那現在呢遇到一些緊急狀況現在緊急狀況的時候第一時間一定是海巡組去做處理"},{"start":2532.402,"end":2552.034,"text":"所以我們要給足夠的經費足夠的人力足夠的薪資待遇因為我們希望他隨時保持戰力對不對他們有需要這樣的性質嘛所以我希望今天主席已經站起來了我怕沒有講我已經省掉很多那個副主委我還是希望你今天把我談的東西如果需要說明我給你你一定要把我們的期待我們對弟兄的照顧我們對這個海巡的這個期待任務期待一定要去做一個檢討好嗎"},{"start":2557.557,"end":2562.242,"text":"根本包圍海巡組每個弟兄都是我們自己的弟兄我們會全力幫他爭取他已經有的權利好 謝謝陳昭之委員非常專業 非常完整的詢答因為我們今天是主條等一下還有很多時間可以來做討論接下來請張志倫委員來做詢答"},{"start":2585.916,"end":2596.606,"text":"好謝謝主席各位委員各位官員早有請海委會張副主委請張副主委好副主委謝謝那"},{"start":2599.099,"end":2626.37,"text":"今天是有關於這個海委會跟海巡署要偵涉第三位副主委的法令的修正案那本席在這邊先我是支持這個海巡的相關的預算謝謝委員那可是本席要特別針對海巡相關我們編列的預算我們要進行嚴格的審查那首先我今天主要是要討論有關海巡署不管是從公務預算或特別預算"},{"start":2627.331,"end":2631.605,"text":"花了非常多的納稅錢來購買無人機的部分那不過我要先感謝"},{"start":2633.276,"end":2656.515,"text":"這個恭喜副主委啊聽說您最近有取得這個民航核發的無人機的專業操作證是有考過考過可以飛無人機可以去執行你也可以去執行可以好謝謝那很高興副主委以身作則在我們這個海巡未來主要推動無人機的腳步上一起來努力那我想要請教"},{"start":2657.336,"end":2683.379,"text":"主委知道說我們海委會在特別預算裡面其實針對無人機有編列21.3億元的特別預算總共要籌措451架無人機的購置你知道這件事嗎知道那我想請問就你本身而言你剛考過專業證照你自己本身有買無人機嗎我本身以前有玩過那你一台無人機大概買多少錢"},{"start":2684.391,"end":2700.009,"text":"跟委員報告因為無人機的進程跌的太快了你買一台大概多少錢因為是小型的250公克以下所以我那時候買含一年的保固跟保險兩萬多出頭一點點"},{"start":2705.675,"end":2726.724,"text":"所以第一個無人機的重點第一個是重量還有它電池可以續航的程度而且它可以飛行的距離等等都是我覺得非常重要無人機它的價格的問題可是我們看到剛剛我們的特別預算裡面編了21.3億的無人機它有包含進程機、中程機、建載機以及特勤機的部分"},{"start":2727.344,"end":2753.221,"text":"那最近我們也看到我們海委會已經開始公開徵求有關於中程機以及特勤機無人機的這個採購那讓本席所吃驚的中程機我們的預算購置的預算大概是5.9億那算下來是18架9套的無人機算下來的話每一單架每一架的無人機的金額大概是3277萬元"},{"start":2756.003,"end":2766.532,"text":"這是我們現在已經公開徵求的那第二個本席想要再請教的是特勤機啊更是讓本席驚訝我們的是要買9組大概9組4245萬元那一組的單價我不知道一組是幾台一組單價要471點"},{"start":2774.265,"end":2796.295,"text":"400多萬要480萬元那尤其我看到我們這個特勤機的規格它的機體的重量是在3公斤以下飛行的時間大概只有30分鐘而且承受的風量承受的抗風能力才5級那我想要請教我們副主委會不會覺得我們的無人機的採購到底我們買一台的單價多少錢會不會採購太貴了"},{"start":2798.936,"end":2821.172,"text":"跟委員報告無人機除了我們現在市面上上過的以外其實我們會買無人機最主要一個功能就是它是用來徵收的我這邊跟市長跟委員透露就像它的籌債我們現在高階的籌債它光一個Gamble光一個徵收的雷達它就高達五到六千萬"},{"start":2822.272,"end":2850.304,"text":"所以我們不能夠以這一個無人機單價來算第二部分我們是全售期的維保還有保固包圍保包括我們還要做人員的教育訓練還有考場的設置這個都是包含在這個建案的方面所以那個委員看到的你會覺得說為什麼我412架的這個進程機會有這麼高的價格其實它是包含有剛剛我講的這個這麼多的部分還有包括它籌載部分那因為海巡組的無人機主要是用來做徵收"},{"start":2852.025,"end":2870.756,"text":"所以它會跟國防部的有一些是不一樣的特別跟委員報告好 謝謝副主委本席只是現在先把這些問題給提供出來希望說這個海巡海委會後續還是要跟本辦公室大家一起來討論因為我還沒講到像之前管碧玲主委也特別提到說建載機一台"},{"start":2873.137,"end":2885.344,"text":"這個將近一台無人機要將近一億一億的這個新台幣來去做購買所以本席在這邊一直在跟你們索取相關的資料不管是維修保固或是"},{"start":2886.209,"end":2909.574,"text":"的經費我們都支持可是到底這些無人機我們買不買得到到底買多少價格到底有沒有廠商承包這都是非常重要的一個問題那我接下來再來請教主委這也是最近的新聞有關於我們這個無人機我們的國產化到底未來要如何來推動因為我們知道我們海巡我們政府有一個無人機國產化"},{"start":2911.594,"end":2930.262,"text":"的一個採購政策那過去我們有一個選疫型無人機的計畫在2023年9月有一家叫做仲碩科技以2億元得標可是後來他的這個因為他未來的無人機沒有過關然後全案解約那現在"},{"start":2931.837,"end":2960.894,"text":"我們把這個案子重新把它改成一個叫做忠誠忠誠無人機的一個計畫現在由這個台灣採光得標可是他當時得標的時候他是說他會引進這個美國廠商的合作不過在他得標的資料裡面其實我們可以看到內容他是說其實無人機的產地是拉脫維亞的產地所以本席想要說這是過去是一個得標後沒有辦法"},{"start":2961.554,"end":2984.375,"text":"沒有辦法順利結標的一個案子那現在重新得標到底現在整個的狀況我們的無人機的國產化還有我們現在的產地整個標示是不是可以請副主委來說明一下我們這邊特別跟委員報告我們一定是支持國機國造部分但是這個案子在標之前它是在我們無人機採購指引之前所以特別跟委員說明"},{"start":2985.316,"end":3004.177,"text":"那第二個部分這家公司原來是拉脫亞沒有錯但是他是被美國公司購買所以他是全美國公司這個沒有沒有飛鴻供應鏈的問題所以他的飛機是高階的而且他的性能是非常優秀的部分那另外一個部分就是我們現在買的無人機部分我們除了"},{"start":3005.177,"end":3022.444,"text":"剛剛委員有特別提到說我們的建載機價格很高主要是因為我們的滯空的能力還有它的導控距離還有它的性能跟徵收的這些相關的設備的價格的問題這邊特別跟委員說明那是不是可以請副主委等會後的時候有詳細的資料再可以提供給本辦公室可以嗎"},{"start":3022.924,"end":3024.446,"text":"會後的時候再跟委員說明好 謝謝好 謝謝張志倫委員的詢答這個也請我們張副主委張委員所提到的資料要來做一個提供因為整個無人機你們這樣講 講不清楚"},{"start":3038.339,"end":3058.578,"text":"無人機有從低價到高階那甚至於烏克蘭戰場是大量的戰術這個無人機那個單機本來價錢就會為所不一樣有高階的有低階的那甚至於有增防的那增防的那還貴得要死無人機的一個使用我相信最主要大家會知道說整個無人機倒不是在講單機的價錢"},{"start":3060.279,"end":3084.155,"text":"甚至於功用完全不同通訊抗干擾就是第一個飛的上去要抗干擾衛星連結作戰整合後勤維修所以這個資料請務必提供給張志倫委員所以那個文字沒辦法三來比高啦有時候國防真的要高階要去做使用的配備的高低混合使用的這個一併要去講清楚不然大家都在拿一價錢"},{"start":3085.916,"end":3099.667,"text":"稍微兩萬也買得到 也有兩千萬的也可以買到兩億的三兩萬的比兩千萬的會有誤導但是張委員的關心我覺得是非常好的一件事情來接下來我們請審發會委員來做詢問主席我們請張副主委"},{"start":3115.867,"end":3122.21,"text":"請張副主委委員長副主委進入今天的這個法案的討論之前"},{"start":3124.246,"end":3149.339,"text":"有關於昨天上午好像在我們這個金門海域又有這個中國的海警船的集結的狀況這是事情是不是請副主委說明一下我這邊特別跟委員報告那中國海警常態性襲擾金門跟馬祖地區它是常態性的那現在大概每一個月會有四次在金門地區會進到我們的限制水域但是"},{"start":3149.919,"end":3168.954,"text":"進入嘛,不是不只是靠近是進入進入,然後我們會我們徵收到以後我們會用我們的這個艦船艇去做預先預先的預置然後把這個船驅離到我們的水域外面他進入我們金門的這個縣市水域昨天的狀況好像不只海警船還有這個中國海事局的"},{"start":3170.03,"end":3191.296,"text":"有一艘海事局 但是時間很短 行經時間很短這個部分 我想剛剛主委也有講到中國這些公務船隻 他們都現在常態性的以執法的名義進入我們的限制水域這個已經不是所謂的灰色地帶了 這個已經是對"},{"start":3192.996,"end":3209.711,"text":"對我們的這個主權他對外釋放這樣不實的訊息讓這個海域管轄的權力受到侵蝕這部分我想我們海巡署要有一個全套的一個因應的"},{"start":3212.104,"end":3231.46,"text":"我們本來就一套的全套的這個SOP另外一部分我們對於他洗澡部分我們會整個全程錄影收證然後向對國外媒體發聲也就是告訴其他國家我們的有門部分中國大陸如何的去這個用灰色地帶手段來清澆我們的金門跟馬祖地區好"},{"start":3232.26,"end":3255.998,"text":"接下來我們進入今天的法案今天我們修正案第11條是有關施行日期我們就這兩條主要是有關於海委會組織法的第三條第三條就是修改一個字而已就是我們副署長從兩人我們希望增設到三人"},{"start":3257.458,"end":3265.709,"text":"那這個我們就這部分我想這個包括這些提案委員包括我個人這是我想我們會支持這個法案謝謝委員"},{"start":3267.165,"end":3293.913,"text":"因為我們海巡署這個業務實在是龐大而且多元剛剛副署長報告也講到我們主要在講我們的主要三大任務國安、治安跟平安就是海域的國家安全的防護海上治安以及所謂平安就是包括我們的"},{"start":3295.814,"end":3313.151,"text":"護魚跟這個海上救難海上救難這些問題那除了這個以外你們其實還有其他的業務除了其他的業務你們其他牽涉到這些海洋污染防治也是你們的業務那這個海洋生態保育也是你們的業務海上廢棄物的管理也是你們的業務這些"},{"start":3315.974,"end":3329.241,"text":"這個整個統整歸屬於海上環保的也是你們的業務那另外這個還有一個部分是海上產業海洋產業我國海洋產業的發展也是你們的業務喔是對不對是所以除了你剛剛講的治安"},{"start":3330.51,"end":3351.289,"text":"國安、平安之外包括這些相關的海上環保業務包括這個海洋產業所以其實海巡署是業務實在是業務量是非常大那所以這個我們過去因為我們這些所有的三級機關我看這行政院三級機關的這個副署長大概都是"},{"start":3352.19,"end":3361.377,"text":"我們警政署也是三個人我們調查局也是三個人水利署也是三個人只有我們海巡署只有我們這個海巡署是兩個人只有個人是支持這次的修法把這個我們兩個"},{"start":3370.044,"end":3387.575,"text":"那我看這個其他我看這個人總詮釋部的這些他們的報告他們也都支持的也都支持那這個那我要了解的是說我們過去原本我們現在的這個兩個副署長就我剛剛所講這麼多的業務他們現在就兩個副署長他們有沒有督導上面的分工"},{"start":3388.32,"end":3416.739,"text":"我們督導的主要分工是根據他們的這個屬性像我們的許副署長他就負責企劃、督查、巡防、情報、後勤、通知跟特別行動中心的部分另外一個副署長是主要負責巡防、通知、秘書、國會、人事跟這個特勤中心的部分那因為他們根據各的專長不同所以有負責任務但是他們在彼此之間又互相重疊"},{"start":3418.221,"end":3431.996,"text":"這個業務上不是按照不同的區域或不同的任務型態我們是按照任務的內容去區分任務內容去處理那未來如果在徵社會副署長我們大概會怎麼樣的方式"},{"start":3433.378,"end":3455.941,"text":"接下來的這個副署長的這個未來新的副署長說我們也是一樣會按照他的專長部分因為我們針水進來他是具有高度的軍事背景的那我們就讓他去管平站轉換平站座位跟國防部對接的部分這個部分另外一部分我們的組織法的設計就是這個副署長的部分是軍警文並用也就是他的身份是可以軍用的"},{"start":3455.981,"end":3477.932,"text":"我們海巡署最大的特色是軍警穩並用是一個軍警穩並用的機關我等一下會跟你討論那我個人是希望就是說你們其實其實我們海巡署的業務這麼樣的繁雜我們其實除了我們剛剛講的說這個按照不同任務型態下去分工之外我個人也認為說應該針對不同各種不同的業務"},{"start":3479.173,"end":3502.705,"text":"你們也應該要讓副處長下去分工督導所以我想今天我看除了我們行政院版本以外其他有八個委員的提案這很難得的在一個法案上面所有包括我們院版包括所有八個委員提案全部都一模一樣一字不差"},{"start":3503.605,"end":3532.304,"text":"全部一模一樣一致不差所以我想這個表示說事實上本院大家所有委員對我們這個海巡署這個徵社一位副署長是有極高度的共識那最後一點點時間我就說這個我們重視這個副署長這個我們需求需要那我講本院委員大家也都支持我們全區的部委支持我們人總委支持但是我們的這個基層人力海巡署的基層人力"},{"start":3533.204,"end":3557.96,"text":"現在實在是大有問題大有問題我看我們的這個海巡署我們的這個預算員額我這邊有一個表預算員額逐年增加從108年一直到114年到去年7月來計算我們預算員額是每年都增加但是我們的缺額人數缺額人數也是每年增加"},{"start":3559.11,"end":3564.184,"text":"增加比例到現在缺額 我看我們預算員的缺額已經到一成了超過10%的缺額了"},{"start":3568.262,"end":3590.664,"text":"其實委員的資料可能是到114年其實我們到115年我們在114年的時候這個時候有加了三項佳績所以我們不管是我們的招募的大成率我們招募的大成率以前大概都是六成到七成我們今年已經提升到八成多 將近九成"},{"start":3591.124,"end":3601.395,"text":"那流言歷的部分我們這次增加了7%所以我們現在的人員的增長是正成長而不是負成長從去年加擠之後現在是正成長那你把去年成長的數據是不是能夠提供給本席"},{"start":3608.662,"end":3635.147,"text":"另外部分就是在可能大家都關心艦艇的人力部分我們艦艇的人力部分是人事總署會根據我們艦艇交船的這個期程然後撥給我們這個多的預算源所以在人力上面我們像警察大學他是四年我們就預估在四年後的人力所以我們在四年警專是兩年我們就會預估框多少所以我們在這個人力部分我們一年在警專跟警"},{"start":3635.587,"end":3655.776,"text":"大部分我們一年增加的請他們多招募一年增加200個這個畢業生這個因為剛剛副組長也自己有講這個我們海巡署非常特殊的我們是軍職警職文職並用的一個機關那軍職最多啦我們文職人員才不到10%文職人員很少所以這樣子"},{"start":3656.876,"end":3673.35,"text":"這個有關於人才我們這個缺額補足的部分這個就是兩大面向希望說副組長在未來要一個就是人才招募這部分我們要加強另外就是留才啦你不要讓人留不住啦留才大概這兩個事情這部分我會在後續再來跟副組長來討論好 謝謝委員"},{"start":3675.572,"end":3692.056,"text":"好 謝謝沈發慧委員的詢答每一位委員的跨黨派的版本都一樣這代表我們國會組也非常成功接下來我們有請我們最專業的翁小玲召委請沈發慧委員來拜託一下好 謝謝主席有請副主委有請張副主委"},{"start":3705.399,"end":3724.285,"text":"委員好副主委好首先我想問一個有關於最近發生的時事議題就是有一艘基隆級的泉魚六號海難事件這個事情基本上看起來是一個還蠻單純的海上救援但是現在卻演變成為兩岸各說各話的救難羅生門"},{"start":3733.083,"end":3747.424,"text":"我想對於人民來講最在意的就是生命財產的安全而不是在乎的是這誰先搶到話語權誰先做政治宣傳所以我今天我想請教海巡署的幾個問題"},{"start":3748.866,"end":3772.543,"text":"就是到底全魚六號它在4月16號在釣魚台東北約77海里那時候發生了這個失火那當時的救援的真相到底是如何在第一時間趕到現場然後有去幫忙去救助這個船員的到底是哪一個國家"},{"start":3773.508,"end":3802.668,"text":"我這邊特別跟委員說明中國大陸只要逮到機會他就可以做他的認知作戰這是我現在聲明的部分第二個部分全域六號他是在16號的早上5點21分那我們5點21分接到通報以後因為那個地方是日本的搜救責任區我們現在所有的全世界搜救責任區都是根據IMO所有相關規定來規範的也就是那個責任區誰的責任區發現誰要先去救那我特別要跟委員報告我們現在搜救無國界"},{"start":3803.768,"end":3826.723,"text":"誰看到 誰就會去救他 不管是哪一個國家所以誰先看到嘛對 那第二個部分就是我們通報我們在國售中心就第一時間就通報日本日本海上保安廳他們是日本海上保安廳的第一艘船是在8點38分就到現場然後第二個部分 他7點21分的時候他的空襯機 海保的空襯機就到現場去看了"},{"start":3827.503,"end":3850.012,"text":"所以第一個時間到現場的,是我們鄰近的漁船那個全體36,他先把船上有7個人,他先把6個船員先救起來那日本的,日本海保廳的PLO89謝謝副主委,您剛剛講這些事情,就是當然就是說,就中國大陸那邊"},{"start":3850.632,"end":3874.791,"text":"他們也發布了這個相關的新聞訊息也PO了照片那看起來當時他們應該是離這個泉漁六號的失火的船是非常靠近的那麼在這個部分來說可能日本也許你們我們先通知了日本那麼日本他先派了這個偵察機等等的去巡邏但是在第一時間救援的"},{"start":3875.532,"end":3900.868,"text":"除了我們自己剛剛講的全域36號我們自己台灣的船之外是不是中國大陸那邊的船也有伸出援手去救援我們接到全域36號通報的時候是在下午的4點多他有通報說有一艘中國的海警船在現場協助滅火那日本的日本他是以先救人為優先所以他第一時間除了滅火以外然後他先去救那個船長這個船到底是什麼兩邊都一起出來滅火嗎"},{"start":3904.81,"end":3919.656,"text":"一起救援嗎?日本跟中國大陸都有所以看起來中國大陸是最先有去滅火的嘛然後船員是不是也是他們先救起來日本先滅火 日本先到但是日本沒有救船員"},{"start":3924.079,"end":3951.202,"text":"船員是我們在周邊作業的所以我們就先救了他們先救起來的好那如果這樣的話其實我想這個是一個大家蠻關心的一個船難的事件那更在乎的就是說到現在為止還有一名失蹤的船長到現在都還沒有被救起來我們很希望就是說是在這不久的將來可以趕快找到這名船長那麼但是"},{"start":3951.802,"end":3970.788,"text":"就這件事情來說本席其實很在意的就是船那時間發生了那中國大陸他們那裡有可能他們的說法然後日本那邊也有他們說法但最重要是我們自己的這是我們自己的漁船海巡署應該要真實的呈現整個的救難經過"},{"start":3973.009,"end":3994.343,"text":"剛剛這個副主委講得很好就是救難無國界那麼救難我覺得也不應該去區別到底是誰先救誰後救或是說人家有救了然後又故意說他們又是一個政治的一個統戰的一個話術重要的是說是不是能夠救回人民的生命我覺得這是才是重點那在這裡我還想要再進一步的去了解的就是說那現在因為釣魚台周邊海域本來它就是一個高風險的區域"},{"start":4001.608,"end":4018.998,"text":"那麼對於北部漁船的相關的緊急定位的設備衛星通訊救生裝備的等等這些補助啊保險制度那海巡署這邊或是還有這個涉及跨國搜救協調機制就這個部分來講的話海巡署或是海委會這裡有沒有特別強化"},{"start":4020.762,"end":4046.301,"text":"這邊跟委員報告就是有關漁船的相關的這些設備補助還有包括救難設施這邊因為這是漁業署的權責那我們在我們還有一個部分我們會就護漁的部分我們會加強那比如說現在這個這個時機點就是釣魚台的台日海域的重點那個漁訊局所以我們通常會派一到三艘的大艦會在漁船最多的地方在附近護漁"},{"start":4047.102,"end":4052.924,"text":"那像台北現在也是熱季啊所以我們會派一到兩艘的大艦會在附近那保護我們的漁民"},{"start":4054.333,"end":4060.756,"text":"尤其是因為日本也認為釣魚團那邊是他們重要的海域他們過去也曾經有發生過就是有驅趕台灣的漁船甚至對於台灣的漁民非常不友善比較惡劣的一個做法我們希望海巡署能夠肩負起保護我們漁民的責任那麼更何況就是現在海巡署對於日本就是在"},{"start":4079.364,"end":4095.996,"text":"這個海域的部分那又有中國大陸那邊他們也會一起去巡邏那麼就未來如果說有發生類似像這樣的一個救難事件來說我認為說兩岸還是要基於一個海難的相互互助的這樣一個精神"},{"start":4097.037,"end":4117.187,"text":"如果說那邊的船發生了問題我們去救援我們的船發生了問題他們也來救援那大家要把政治放兩旁這個就像我講的人民的生命財產才是最重要的這是以上我對於海巡署的期許那另外對於說今天的海巡署要增加多一位副署長的事因為"},{"start":4118.087,"end":4127.079,"text":"副主委也來跟我這裡報告過我原則上是支持可是我還是要講一下就是就目前我看到海委會跟海巡署之間分工的一個很奇特的狀況其實"},{"start":4129.639,"end":4158.327,"text":"就副主委您自己本身就是海委會的副主委但是又去擔任海巡署的署長所以您一個人是身兼數職對不對如果說今天海巡署署長跟副主委他是兩個不同的人擔任海巡署的署長其實他再加上兩個副署長也許就夠了可是你現在變成是分身乏術啊要去履行政務副主委的這樣的責任然後又同時要再去承擔海巡署署長這個重責大任"},{"start":4159.247,"end":4172.755,"text":"確實對於整個海巡署的人力配置來講的話是不足的那麼我認為說這個部分其實未來其實應該要進行檢討是不是副主委就副主委一個專職然後海巡署的署長就海巡署署長的專職"},{"start":4173.851,"end":4196.96,"text":"跟委包因為這有牽涉到修法所以到時候我們再來做相關的研究是因為你們自己就在內部所以很清楚知道說相關的法律是不是應該進行修正我個人覺得海巡署署長在工作上是不影響的這邊特別跟委員說明我完全不會影響到海巡署的工作而且我們推行的越來越好也謝謝委員的支持謝謝委員好以上好謝謝好謝謝接下來我們請徐宇珍委員上台質詢"},{"start":4216.376,"end":4217.657,"text":"請張副主委兼海巡署長"},{"start":4244.955,"end":4263.569,"text":"但是呢也正因為如此我們不能讓我們的基層同仁就是撐在最前面應該我們必須要拿出更完整的應變準備讓第一線在捍衛主權維持秩序的同時也能夠有足夠的人力裝置制度跟規範作為後盾那"},{"start":4264.449,"end":4278.522,"text":"先請教署長就是面對中國海警船常態化的侵擾金門海這個水域請問海巡署目前除了一對一的並行監控外還有什麼長期系統性的因應對策"},{"start":4280.287,"end":4294.318,"text":"這邊跟委員報告那我想全世界應對中國揮帶襲擾 海準襲擾台灣的海巡署是最有經驗的那我特別這邊跟委員報告全世界所有的國家都曾經到"},{"start":4294.818,"end":4314.733,"text":"海巡署來取經我們怎麼樣去面對中國大陸這種灰色洗腦的相關的這些措施跟因應措施那在目前看起來我們現在這樣的處理方式是獲得全世界各國的肯定的因為我們的執法的效能是非常非常有效的另外一部分為了要"},{"start":4315.733,"end":4336.539,"text":"為了要增加應變的縱深 所以我們有最近 也特別謝謝委員的支持就是我們國安特別預算裡面有編列很多預算那這些預算就是要提早徵收到相關的這些預警緊支然後我們提早因應 然後提早預制就不會讓這樣的情形 比較靠近我們水利來作之他們中央大樓所稱的所謂的執法"},{"start":4339.46,"end":4363.501,"text":"那我想我們未來會有更有能力還有我們未來的大線持續建造也有更多的艦船艇的能量去應對中國海警的這些襲擾那比如說未來他們侵擾的規模更擴大比如說可能從4艘增加到6艘8艘甚至更多點同時進入那我方金門的第一線船艇跟人力是否足夠長期的支撐"},{"start":4366.334,"end":4381.168,"text":"特別跟委員報告我們在艦船也調度我們是統一調度的也就是說如果是金門你現在是海警船數量增加然後我們預警情之出現我們會從台灣本島調大艦跟巡防艇去支援那因為距離近"},{"start":4381.488,"end":4399.053,"text":"所以現在的人力是可以辦法做長期的人力上沒有問題因為其實現在我想海巡署這個基層人力的這個現在還是相當的不足啦所以針對這個部分我覺得應該是也要針對人力的部分要做一些補充把這個應該要編組的這個圓圓能夠編組這樣免得"},{"start":4403.554,"end":4429.001,"text":"說如果萬一是長期性的一個這樣子的一個侵擾的話那基本上我們人力的調度上現在看起來也許是足夠但事實上也許基層的同仁其實是已經苦不堪言了那另外就是目前金馬鵬分署跟第十二巡防區的人力配置跟這個資源的能量因為大部分都是發生在這個金馬鵬分署這邊"},{"start":4430.121,"end":4451.558,"text":"那現在這些的資源能量是不是充足呢目前我們在應對這個相關周邊水域的情況人力是夠的然後我們也會機動從台灣調艦船艇去支援所以現在金馬鵬分署的這個基層的這個配置上還有輪班部分都是沒有問題的沒有問題的"},{"start":4452.839,"end":4469.625,"text":"但是我覺得還是要真正了解基層的一個需求那如果對方在海上採取衝撞逼近跟危險超船的高風險的行為海巡署第一線是不是有明確的可操作的分級應變跟通報的規範"},{"start":4471.085,"end":4491.7,"text":"避免誤判升高衝突各位委員包括我們一向都是不挑釁但是我們也不示弱也就是他們對我們做什麼措施我們同樣會用同一等的強度去回應請委員放心我們有能力去處理海上任何的衝撞任何的衝突"},{"start":4492.742,"end":4509.297,"text":"好那如果真正的發生了這個突發的衝突啦或者一些這個器械的使用爭議啊海巡署對於第一線的同仁是不是有完整的法律協助心理支持跟事後的保障機制我們對於這個器械使用條例我們是有一定的規範的"},{"start":4509.858,"end":4522.961,"text":"譬如說你要使用槍啊 炮啊 要經過我的允許才可以使用另外對於通常因公執法所採 衍生了相關的這些不管是任何的賠償啊 撫恤啊什麼這些我們有一套的完整的這個撫恤措施"},{"start":4523.884,"end":4551.537,"text":"對 我想照完整的措施避免讓基層的同仁單獨去承受相關的風險這樣才能夠提高我們這個海巡署的同仁他們願意在為我們國家付出的這個在第一線為國家這個打這個征戰的一個過程中能夠受到大家的肯定那另外我再請教您一下就是說這個潮頭地檢署在本月的14號起訴境外勢力行賄軍人泄密國安的這個"},{"start":4553.737,"end":4576.403,"text":"因為海巡署目前也有一位哨衛層級的官兵有涉嫌請問一下一個哨衛層級的官兵為什麼能夠接觸到足以被認定為違反國安法的秘密文書或電詞的記錄海巡署內部針對各級人員的接觸機密的全線分級是不是需要全面的重新盤查"},{"start":4577.343,"end":4596.704,"text":"根本包括因為這位同仁是在東南沙分屬那基本上東南沙分屬的所有的相關這些資訊我們都會把他列為機敏性的這個資料那他洩漏出去以後我們在第一時間就根據這個相關的法律就跟他這個停止然後最後把他免職"},{"start":4597.945,"end":4613.258,"text":"對 那針對現在這樣子的狀況的話針對我們現在的這個接觸精密文件的權限的分級是不是需要重新的那個檢視呢各位幫我們本來就是有一套的機制啦所以現在的機制是可以是沒有問題的"},{"start":4613.999,"end":4629.429,"text":"我們現在的機制上是可以防堵的但是我要特別跟委員說明是任何的這個所有的機敏的資料我們都是第一時間作為維護的主要對象另外我們這個所有機敏資料他都有被"},{"start":4630.469,"end":4656.105,"text":"洩密的可能所以我們對於人員的教育跟訓練我們現在持續加強那我們導入政風系統裡面的相關的這些防止國安洩密事件的相關措施那目前看起來這一個效果還是非常好的是由我們政風市來做處理還是要請海巡署再能夠再加強我們的這個針對一般我們的這些會涉及到這個機敏的資料的這些人員要做更加強的一個教育訓練是謝謝好 謝委員"},{"start":4660.765,"end":4681.838,"text":"好 謝謝徐執政委員接下來我們請張宏祿委員上台質詢我請這個張副主委請副主委上台配選"},{"start":4686.947,"end":4699.474,"text":"副主委我先請問一下警政署有幾個副署長上位那我們以前海巡有幾位我們在海美主管之前是有三位"},{"start":4700.074,"end":4720.792,"text":"也是三位嘛 對不對所以這一次啊要多增加變三位其實也是回到以前而已吧是 但是跟委員報告我們在主改之前的業務跟主改之後的業務是天壤之別我們現在的業務 疊價業務比以前多太多了"},{"start":4722.063,"end":4736.102,"text":"對啊我本來就是要請教你一下你改組之後你們現在跟以前的業務多了多少重點就好了這邊跟委員報告第一個就是在國際情勢部分因為因應海域情勢的變化"},{"start":4737.223,"end":4763.877,"text":"所以我們要處理國際事務中國飛帶的洗澡然後再過來就是國安的這一個關鍵基礎設施的維護另外全英倫的這些相關的措施部分另外導入高科技設備的部分這也是我們現在新增的一個比較重要的這一塊的項目另外在聯合勤監政的部分那我們現在導入非常多的這些相關的科技設備那更需要有一位比較專業的這一個副署長來輔佐那讓這個業務"},{"start":4766.398,"end":4787.671,"text":"讓海巡的業務推動上會更加順利那你們的艦艇數有沒有增加有增加增加非常多增加多少大艦很多我們從早期的在水井時代大概只有幾艘不到10艘我們現在總數加就是那個艦艇船艇以上的有199艘對嘛 人員增加多少"},{"start":4792.718,"end":4808.106,"text":"根本委員包括我們人員增加部分現在的人員總數在這個現在大概有3000因為他人數是變動的啦所以這邊根本委員包括大概有3000出頭那我意思是說改組前改組後啦大概啦"},{"start":4808.846,"end":4835.701,"text":"我們現在在建團 跟委員報告分兩個塊就是在建團警的部分因為都是警文職的比較多那警文職的來源基本上是比較沒有問題因為他是專業受過警察大學跟警專訓練的然後另外一部分就是特考部分也進來然後我們有透過招考這些海事院校的學生進來參加我們的特考"},{"start":4836.221,"end":4865.481,"text":"那這個進來的部分倒是在艦船艇部分比較沒有問題另外一部分我們也招募一些軍職的同仁有興趣到艦上服務的給他基本訓練讓他取得船員證照他就可以上艦船艇去服務這個部分在艦船艇的部分會人事總署會隨著我們交艦的騎乘給我們必要的這個人力他是請徵人力的部分根據我們交船的騎乘會增加在艦上的倒是比較沒有問題"},{"start":4870.966,"end":4886.884,"text":"人多了很多,船艦也多了很多,業務也多了很多,這三大塊是不是都多?都多,而且多很多,有沒有以前的幾倍以上?"},{"start":4887.972,"end":4912.745,"text":"呃...我沒有實際去量化過啦但是多一倍是一定有的我覺得有欸是我覺得有欸是你光艦艇的數量就多多少了是對不對光預算我們就多一倍多我們不要講到預算啦因為你能力有多什麼那一定會多嘛我說你們的業務就是多很多啦是對不對所以業務多很多的情況下回到以前齁有三個副署長這樣子來"},{"start":4915.809,"end":4922.467,"text":"來齁來處理事情來調配其實是不是會比較好一點呃 各位報告那是一定是會比較好"},{"start":4923.702,"end":4947.13,"text":"一定比較好嘛 對不對所以啦齁我個人是認為啦齁這個增加有兩個人變成三個副組長我個人是支持啦齁不過我在這邊有一個就是說其實剛剛也說了很多的業務量增加很多但也有很多是新的業務量新的業務"},{"start":4947.93,"end":4969.049,"text":"其實現在因應整個跟以前的第一個觀念不同第二個配備也不同第三個所有的要求都不同了那我們如果多出來一個副署長他需要要不要有特別的專才或什麼的"},{"start":4971.09,"end":4984.656,"text":"跟委員包括我們的組織法裡面是軍警文兵用所以這一位進來的身份可能是警察也有可能是文職的也有可能是軍職的我沒有要你回答我這麼細我說這一個"},{"start":4988.447,"end":5004.682,"text":"就整個業務來講的話可能你應該這樣講多了一個副署長你多了一個很多可以處理的那底下我們的配置整個的組織有沒有要連動的去有一些特殊的我們其實要考量"},{"start":5006.134,"end":5032.751,"text":"對 這邊跟委員報告那在去年管組委就針對這個部分因為在組織變動上面因為其實它變化是蠻大的所以我們現在在做整個組織的盤點要不要去調整必要的組織那這個草案我們目前已經在做了那我想我們希望在今年度能夠提出來包括我們組織怎麼樣去修編要不要擴編相關的這些組織因為要因應未來的這些局勢改變其實它是有必要的"},{"start":5033.391,"end":5052.745,"text":"對啦 我的意思不一定是要擴編啦 我舉一個很簡單的啦我們現在有配合無人機配合什麼的其實以前啦 這個並不是很重要 但現在就很重要阿這個就是一個非常重要的一個單位阿像這種就要考量嘛 對不對要考量嘛好謝謝張宏祿委員 接下來請王美惠委員來做詢答"},{"start":5076.229,"end":5079.552,"text":"主席,我們這裡有副主委請張副主委吳主委好,在這裡因為今天我們就是要討論海巡署的條例來臨要給一個副署長在這個規定當中,我們看得出來我們的海巡署來臨,我們的第一算"},{"start":5105.213,"end":5108.44,"text":"這裡的經濟長久以來我相信你也有感受到那個壓力越來越大你看剛才不管是"},{"start":5117.059,"end":5126.165,"text":"整個的立委 董事會說我們最近發生的四月十六日也好 天公會也好發生很多事情 我覺得說帶到中國 帶不到機會帶到機會 它都會矮化中華民國的台灣尤其說實在 像剛才市長說的"},{"start":5141.82,"end":5146.922,"text":"我們海上救人沒分,你跟我說,也沒分代一國的但是偏偏就是有一個國的不是他第一次救的,他也說他第一次救的如果有人在海上救人的時候,常常說他第一次救的我們說實在,如果到海上救人的時候我們可以救一個海,又送一個海,沒分代一國的"},{"start":5171.869,"end":5178.575,"text":"所以在這裏面 我要向市長副主委請教一下第四月十六這個規定當中 我們這六個月的尊嚴有求開但是尊重到現在是怎樣來副主委你知道嗎"},{"start":5193.814,"end":5199.897,"text":"第一時間是我們在旁邊作業的期間我現在說你現在知道現在就是那個尊重到目前為止就失蹤因為我覺得不用說什麼人的機會不用說什麼人第一次的機會現在目前我們的尊重要失蹤了"},{"start":5219.466,"end":5223.829,"text":"看能不能救這個不然時間漸漸 畢竟我們救的錢有狂金時期所以我也希望 國際上常常講不好吃中華民國台灣的豆腐因為沒有人這樣像我們中國外外國的媒體也有講到海上長城"},{"start":5249.062,"end":5255.068,"text":"主席你有聽到這句嗎?我覺得很有趣的 海上的長城大家聽起來都覺得莫名其妙 但是海上的長城是什麼?主席你知道海上的長城的意思是什麼嗎?教育委員報告 紐約時報報過三篇"},{"start":5274.085,"end":5281.411,"text":"他的邏輯跟蘇雄差不多一樣 就是說大陸有那個領域動員4000多隻的魚族來保護他他的概念就是這樣 但是我們所有研究包括日本保護隊 因為他是在漂風"},{"start":5294.441,"end":5318.303,"text":"在這裡 那個地方本來就是大陸傳統的作業宇區包括北海道後面的二年多的堡壁有寫沖繩一本因為那個地方也有前幾屆的大陸遺傳那也是傳統大陸遺傳的那些作業的地方所以我的認為是大陸有可能性我們不能排除啦 我不能排除說有這個可能性但是這個可能性很高"},{"start":5319.804,"end":5325.845,"text":"因為我們要去用,因為他現在都用民間的錢在那裡走,他有夠好笑的他說他就是沒有一樣的氣氛,沒有一樣的季節所以他們要這麼多錢來,萬一他們錢來的時候都用民間的錢,我們都沒辦法對他怎麼樣"},{"start":5346.149,"end":5355.033,"text":"但是就是如果有一個人的錢不是民間的錢在他開始想賺錢的時候,他吃了啦所以本身是怎樣的?很多的,沒有人賺的,沒有人賺的"},{"start":5364.978,"end":5371.222,"text":"因為這次你們可以再加一個副市長因為你看 大家也沒有要戰爭 大家也沒有要受怕他不夠長久以來 你看一年一年 一個月一個月中國對台灣的壓迫啊"},{"start":5386.644,"end":5393.529,"text":"在那個海上這樣走啦在灰色地帶造成我們海巡署我們這裡的影子還要有多大"},{"start":5397.188,"end":5416.653,"text":"署長 你知道阿伯有多大嗎因為他是要保護中華民國他們還要做的工作 還有很多的遭殊 阿礙 跟韓國瑜那些人做他還要當一個界別的派出兵 天天又要來亂"},{"start":5418.837,"end":5423.161,"text":"市長,我問問,我們選一個副市長出來,不是說選一個給我選漂亮的我也知道很多,跟你剛才有分析,說他可以做什麼他可以跟第一、第二的副市長有重疊性,會做什麼?剛才我聽到你說這樣"},{"start":5443.488,"end":5453.59,"text":"我跟委員報告,我們現在三個,如果增加一個副書店來,我們的業務再重新分配,就是說不要說每一個副書店的負擔這麼大,那負擔這麼大的情形,他會越來越專業,做得越好,這是我們的目標因為剛才不知道是你說了有差,還是我聽了有差,你說可以再重提性的做好,我覺得這樣就沒差,這個第三個副書店啦"},{"start":5473.354,"end":5478.476,"text":"在這個過程 剛才本席跟你說這個選擇之下 你們也看到他的打壓 除了要說要和平啦 跟實際都不一樣要和平啦像我們中共要出國的時候 還要這樣打壓啦所以說的一套 做的一套 不能相信中國對台灣的優先啦 以上"},{"start":5501.644,"end":5509.186,"text":"好 謝謝王美惠委員的詢答接下來呢 我們有請林倩琦委員來做詢答好 謝謝我們的主席張昭偉這邊請我們台委會的這個請張副主委"},{"start":5533.055,"end":5555.531,"text":"好委員長副主委您好那麼今天早上我想我們今天是針對你們在組織法這邊有一些這個組織法的這個修改那來做詢答那早上您的報告裡面本席這邊有一個就沒有聽到本席很關注的事情所以本席要針對在去年也就上個會期針對內政委員會"},{"start":5558.293,"end":5575.789,"text":"有關於附贈航海文化力計畫的一個質詢那當時呢我們管組委有正面回應就是說他希望用一個專案來推動原住民防鼓船的造船技術以及南島文化的國際交流因為貴單位也有在不同的船體方面呢其實有一些計畫在進行"},{"start":5577.29,"end":5603.448,"text":"那本期今天要進一步確認的是你們目前的具體進度跟規劃的期程那麼依據你們在前年應該去年針對前年的這個航海文化力計畫的成本效益分析那麼政府要跟民間既有的手工造船跟這個航海文化附贈的能量透過對話的機制跟使用的調度平台來提升船隻使用效度跟整體推廣的效益"},{"start":5604.188,"end":5618.942,"text":"本席跟主委在前年也有參與部落的一些造船文化也有看到部落一個航行的展示那麼這個方向本席是認同的但是在方法上本席針對這個方向要跟你們提出來是它不應該只是一個補助的活動"},{"start":5623.446,"end":5638.882,"text":"應該像主委這樣講的系統化整合跟平台化治理來用專案來做處理喔那麼本時要請教的是這樣的整合呢目前有沒有延伸到原住民越洋仿古造船記憶還是只有停留在部落的一個零散的計畫那"},{"start":5640.503,"end":5667.119,"text":"其實那個主委這邊有跟本席做個建議就是說在造船技術的這個部分其實是可以也請經濟部這邊比較專業的這個團體專業的這個單位來一起做輔助跟推動所以第一個部分本席要確定的是那麼海委會在這個年度是不是已經正式將原住民族的仿古造船技術跟藝術納入附贈航海文化計畫的一個核心推動項目"},{"start":5667.879,"end":5683.673,"text":"那第二個部分是關於調度協調的平台本席很關心的是未來是不是會將原住民族越洋仿古船來納入管理跟運用的體系讓這些船隻不是只有展示或儀式的用途那對漢人來講好像是展示用途"},{"start":5684.622,"end":5701.047,"text":"可是對原住民來講它其實是一種生活文化更何況在現在我們作為這個海洋的這個民族那應該作為一個主體來推動整個造船技術的一個延續跟真正航海的一個南島的話語權所以是不是應該有實際的"},{"start":5702.848,"end":5728.027,"text":"跟教育的這個推廣跟國際實際的一個航行然後第三個部分是最關鍵的也就是國際航行跟文化交流的這個部分海委會有沒有一個具體的規劃的期程攀點可行的南島文化航線那麼規劃在試航或示範性的航行計畫這個都是我們未來跟太平洋島國或友邦在這裡面接觸的一個基礎更何況今年其實去年 帛琉已經來過一艘船已經引起轟動"},{"start":5730.109,"end":5751.648,"text":"那今年你們做的事情呢就是人家來了再拉到你們海委會所在的地方但事實上航行在原住民的這個區塊你們到底是怎麼樣來做的那最重要的是我們的船什麼時候可以航行南島我們的仿古船我們的原住民族的南島語族的船"},{"start":5752.288,"end":5775.229,"text":"什麼時候可以從台灣航行出去因為你們一直說台灣是南島語族的發源地但是現在我們的主體地位已經被其他的國家開始用航行快要取代了請問海委會的成立跟你們未來希望有多一位主委的這樣一個組織的這個改造那請問你們在這裡面在這件事情上是怎麼進行的實際的期程"},{"start":5776.11,"end":5798.562,"text":"跟投入的一個規劃方向跟委員報告我這邊要特別跟委員報告我們管主委曾經擔任過文化局長所以他對於文化文物包括歷史你本身也擔任過文化局長吧所以同質性所以我想委員清楚管主委對於文化保存他是非常非常的重視"},{"start":5798.882,"end":5816.972,"text":"但是重點是不是只有保存本人本席基本上也是個損手所以我們不能只是你們不要用漢人的觀點一直看我們來做展示所以我的重點是它是我們文化很重要的一個主體我們不是讓這個文化死在博物館裡面所以我們會從那個這個"},{"start":5820.814,"end":5845.141,"text":"也鼓勵我們各個部會啦不是只有海委會自己在做不是我們自己在做 我們也包括我們是海委會耶你們的成立對台灣的整個海洋各類的事務是應該有一個主導的地位是 所以我們海委會本來就有一個海洋委員會本席重要的在本席的幾個問題是請問你們有沒有把它放進核心的一個推動計畫裡面第二個 七成"},{"start":5847.102,"end":5869.882,"text":"我們在一個航海復興文化裡面我們編列了從113到116他是有編列一個預算三億六千六百萬元你們打算怎麼做我們來輔助學校跟民間團體等這些計畫然後來規劃船程發揚航海文化跟擴大海洋文化你們什麼時候造出這個南島的防護船"},{"start":5873.29,"end":5890.695,"text":"這個很抱歉跟委員報告我容許我會後再跟委員報告最好是很清楚的給我期程跟你們目前在進行的方向然後切記不要只是一直補助而沒有海委會自己規劃跟執行的一個主體是好嗎是"},{"start":5892.521,"end":5910.778,"text":"這件事情就被人揮霍嗎那本席你是不是可以承諾本席要很清楚的啟程可以那第二個部分本席很快的就針對這個海巡人員的這個退休來做一個詢答不過剛才本席這邊要講的是對不起我這邊處理一下"},{"start":5915.08,"end":5943.667,"text":"好 那本席這邊要對這個海巡人員的權益跟警察人事條例的這個執行的一個爭議來做一個跟您做一個詢答那我們剛才前面講的是海洋文化的政策推動那接下來是人員的保障你要讓大家安定那我們在整個事務的推動才會比較平順所以行政院來暫緩呢執行所引發的對這個退休海巡人員的影響行政院因為執行暫緩目前有的這個爭議"},{"start":5944.987,"end":5967.468,"text":"影響了我們退休海巡的人員那目前行政院的說法說考量憲政爭議已經申請釋憲但是在半年內會提出整體修正的方案但是另外一方面退休海巡的這個團體仍然有一些意見但為法律已經三讀通過還沒有落實會影響制度的一個信賴所以本席這邊有三個重點要跟您這邊來做個討論"},{"start":5968.829,"end":5993.994,"text":"海巡人員也是這樣一個體系所以海委會對於退休保障調整的基本立場是如何那有沒有支持在合理的範圍內提升退休保障要讓第一線的人員有明確的一個預期第二個部分是行政院暫緩執行三讀通過的法律這段期間海委會有沒有評估對海巡人員的士氣及流財還有未來招募的影響是如何"},{"start":5994.594,"end":6019.418,"text":"第三面對目前草野的僵局那主委是不是應該協助行政院來盡快跟立法院來進行實質的一個協調跟推動提出針對你們會內的一個可行的方案那本席不想看到退休的權益長期懸而未決那本席在這邊呼籲可不可以以海巡弟兄的退休生活為面然後來做積極的爭取那副主委您的看法"},{"start":6021.913,"end":6039.674,"text":"我們的立場跟行政的立場是一致的昨天院長在立法院議員會裡面有特別承諾在六個月內會提出妥適的相關的規劃來培養來執行我想在行政的立場上面他一定會用最好的方式來照顧我們所有不管是任何身分別的退休人員的生活"},{"start":6040.936,"end":6052.487,"text":"好 那本席這邊要提醒也就是說剛才本席這邊提到你們沒有評估那這樣子的一個延宕對海巡弟兄士氣的影響跟未來招募你們會不會碰到一些什麼困難你們研析過嗎跟委員報告"},{"start":6055.93,"end":6082.871,"text":"因為這個是配合整個國家的政策跟行政的政策啦所以我們還是配合行政院他一定有一個整體的規劃然後我們要落實來執行但是要特別跟委員說明因為各個身份別的人事條例的適用是各用各的身份的別來使用所以他們的退休權利跟相關保障他或許有一部分的小小的差異但是我想在行政院政策整體政策的規劃下面應該是不會"},{"start":6083.853,"end":6088.353,"text":"不會讓這些同仁 這些退休人員的權益會受到損害"},{"start":6089.233,"end":6116.836,"text":"所以本席在這邊呼籲這樣子的穩定是長期要對第一線人員付出的一個承諾啦那在野黨始終以退休人員的生活穩定為念那也期待行政院可以有誠意的回應那麼立法院及基層的聲音應該要被聽到而且應該有具體的方案那尤其是我們的海巡人員所以請副主委這邊以蒼生為念然後積極的處理跟爭取那六個月的期程不能再延宕好嗎"},{"start":6118.277,"end":6127.665,"text":"好 我們會配合行政院的相關措施來辦理 謝謝委員好 謝謝好 謝謝林倩琦委員的詢答接下來請李柏毅委員來做詢答好 謝謝 有請副主委有請張副主委委員好"},{"start":6145.516,"end":6159.735,"text":"其實我非常贊同現在海委會的組織架構有一位海巡署的署長擔任副主委海委會兼顧包含海洋環境,包含海巡"},{"start":6160.416,"end":6177.108,"text":"那包含護魚包含氣毒氣絲等等的這些工作有一位海巡署長來擔任副主委這一個高度可以高度的統合這個相關的這些事務而不是說海巡執法那海保"},{"start":6177.708,"end":6198.231,"text":"海保這邊也開罰等等的這些相關的事務沒有辦法統合所以我是蠻贊同這個海委會的這個組織架構之外呢今天的這個修法也感謝主席的排審因為其實我們在內政委員會在審理相關海委會的這些事務的時候我們其實也非常的著急"},{"start":6198.732,"end":6224.449,"text":"那召集的都是預算相關的事務那我們也了解清楚這個海巡署他急需如同像警政署調查局一樣都需要第三位的副署長而且原本是有的那我們表示贊同在今天的修法裡面先表示贊同那在海委會海巡署有軍警文的這個文化還有一部分的官務人員"},{"start":6227.551,"end":6245.346,"text":"這個文化裡面其實必須要高度的統合啦尤其這個海巡弟兄的這些待遇等等的問題我們其實也都在內政委員會裡面表達過高度的支持那也希望行政院人事總署可以盡速來做整體評估來核定讓我們海巡署"},{"start":6246.167,"end":6267.994,"text":"也可以招募得到人 留得住人 這個是我們希望可以做到的我的對海委會 對海巡署的一個理念就是要人給人 要錢給錢我們全力支持對於台灣相關的這些我把它視為國防的一環 都不容打折的所以副主委今天來 還是跟你算一下帳來"},{"start":6270.721,"end":6280.132,"text":"114年度的時候其實在內政委員會審理預算的時候審得非常辛苦但是結論還是沒有很好就是被3減8.27億被凍結8.85億那影響到兩"},{"start":6286.88,"end":6307.874,"text":"去年度兩艘大型海巡艦的交艦雖然在韌性特別預算裡面有追加14億回來但是韌性特別預算裡面又被凍結1.45億目前影響的範圍我不曉得署長、副主委這邊有沒有這些列表"},{"start":6309.922,"end":6316.652,"text":"那因為在去年的下半年他是有追加回來的所以有追加回來 預算有追加回來"},{"start":6317.43,"end":6330.14,"text":"有沒有影響到交建的計畫我來列舉包含我們的前瞻預算發展第九年的經費1000噸級的第五艘600噸級的第1艘到第12艘100噸級的第12艘到第14艘35噸級的第42到46還有多功能巡岸艇的46到50艘這一些共計我列了一下共計有35億的這個"},{"start":6346.414,"end":6359.994,"text":"這個海巡艦艇的這些造船的經費我們擔心的是這樣子啦包含在這個任性特別預算裡面如果被凍結了那我們在發包上或者是在給這個造船廠的這個"},{"start":6362.902,"end":6385.787,"text":"階段性的這些經費裡面會不會造成有延誤會不會讓造船廠有一些料沒有辦法進或者是工期會有延誤的狀況各位委員報告當初因為預算凍結所以有船廠會的確是受到影響但是我們有跟船廠充分溝通那因為船廠是跟溝通要叫人先出嘛我們先叫先立"},{"start":6391.03,"end":6412.426,"text":"這個對國防、對艦艇的交接我覺得都是非常非常不健康的我在這邊也要呼籲在野黨對於船艦其實真的必須要給足給夠啦那海巡包含這個國艦國造國防部這一邊這幾年其實對於南部的這個造船產業提供了相當大相當大的這個注意"},{"start":6413.126,"end":6431.207,"text":"那也提升了相當大的造船的這些工業那目前接下來大家比較關注的包含無人機這些設備副主委有沒有對於國際的這些無人機的設備有沒有做什麼相關的研究"},{"start":6432.847,"end":6456.919,"text":"跟委員報告因為我自己去考無人機啦所以我對無人機略懂一點點但是說很專業我不敢講但是對無人機我是清楚的因為我們接下來要採購包含有可能也是跟國艦國造一樣要製作無人機的這些產業有沒有相關的這些研究那其實我很關注這些相關國際的這些軍事報導"},{"start":6460.075,"end":6481.04,"text":"在國際的軍事報導裡面這一次烏俄戰爭其實有一個非常亮眼的無人機系統就是烏克蘭的無人機系統它可以變成是低價的防衛系統它可以阻絕到俄羅斯90%以上的飛彈那我們有沒有可能可以跟烏克蘭有相關的這些合作"},{"start":6482.247,"end":6507.155,"text":"跟文包因為這部分是國防部在處理的那國防部他本來就一個計畫我們這邊是負責徵收嘛那徵收的這些相關的設備我們跟我們工農部我們主要是在做徵收部而不是供給那徵收的主要是取決他的徵收的所有設備另外一部分就是要保存就是讓他去能夠平安回來那我們在國防上面有一部分是去就不回來了"},{"start":6508.236,"end":6516.516,"text":"那個概念是完全不一樣的所以我們的對無人界要求規格跟抗風還有能不能抗干擾部分我們是有特別要求的"},{"start":6516.977,"end":6540.388,"text":"那我希望就是期許我們對於海巡對於海委會尤其是對於海巡在互漁互殺棄毒以及對國家的這個環保等等的我們給予高度的支持那今天的修法我們也給予高度的支持至於這個相關的這些產業我們也希望海委會這邊做高度的統合謝謝"},{"start":6541.468,"end":6559.716,"text":"跟委員報告 我們一定是國見國照 那盡量國記國照 這特別跟委員報告好 謝謝好 謝謝李博義委員的詢答 接下來請蘇巧惠蘇巧惠蘇巧惠委員不在 范雲委員來做詢答"},{"start":6572.212,"end":6594.284,"text":"謝謝昭偉,有請我們的副主委請張副主委委員好署長,今天我想我們的修法主要就是希望強化我們的海上遇到的挑戰我想在你們的修法原理有看到海巡署肩負的是三安"},{"start":6595.605,"end":6624.554,"text":"國安治安及平安三大任務所以除了持續強化我們的海域兼征跟巡弋之外還結合就是各種雷達等密切監控大陸的公務與民兵船動態防範灰色地帶的行動影響我們的國安跟海域秩序那我想先請問副主委你覺得這個國安治安平安物項我們都非常的認同那現在面臨到最大的挑戰是什麼"},{"start":6625.294,"end":6651.024,"text":"所以我們需要增加就是重要的人力 人手這邊跟委員報告其實這三項對海巡署來講都是重要的但是我們唯一最在意的是一定是把國安擺在最前面因為只有國家安全 人民的權利跟人民生活才能確實獲得保障所以在這個部分我們在特別政經條例裡面也非常感謝我們"},{"start":6651.984,"end":6666.503,"text":"立法院的各位的支持所以我們在特別徵信條例裡面我們有增加非常多的相關的科技設備 偵監設備還有包括艦船艇 包括無人載具部分那這個部分都是全部圍繞著在國安 治安跟平安的這三個要項裡面"},{"start":6668.713,"end":6682.759,"text":"那我想因為國人可能有些人並不完全清楚那感謝您剛剛的說明那我們辦公室也是整理的確是光我們看到的新聞就可以看到2026年第一季海面的騷擾爭獲共建級公務船"},{"start":6687.602,"end":6702.143,"text":"215艘那這部分就是譬如說金門的禁止的水域還有中國四海警船闖關那我們的海巡人員還必須要強制驅離那其他的國軍的部分就更多了那海面的騷擾"},{"start":6703.164,"end":6710.436,"text":"我們可以看到蔡總統執政時期共建繞台是4201次賴總統執政時期才剛開始今年進入第三年"},{"start":6718.368,"end":6737.038,"text":"共建繞台算起來就4793次這個部分以我來看真的是假惠台真清台更嚴重的是基礎設施遭受破壞最近台南的地院還在處理有中華電信的海底電纜"},{"start":6738.759,"end":6763.622,"text":"在將軍漁港附近就是發生斷裂那後來抓到一位王姓船長他刻意在海纜線上方做Z字型的移動而且釋放毛爪勾斷海纜線那現在已經這位王姓船長已經在監執行但是拒絕出庭做任何的說明他宣稱他沒有蓄意破壞那我想請問你的是"},{"start":6764.042,"end":6776.225,"text":"那這一類的就是海纜的設施你們增加人力是不是有助於處理這種高頻率全天候的一種等於是我們在跟想破壞人在做消耗戰"},{"start":6777.661,"end":6796.4,"text":"跟委員報告,我剛剛特別提到特別任性的很多證監設備就是提高獄警的眾生我們現在監控的有關中資權娛輪部分就是他有可能到台灣周邊水域作為從事破壞海嵐的動作的這些船舶我們現在監控總共有153艘"},{"start":6797.941,"end":6815.403,"text":"那我們全程監控他只要靠近我們的境縣制水域另外部分只要靠近海岸區域那這個部分除了中央電信本身會告警外那我們的在雷達的呈現上面就也會呈現然後我們會第一時間去那個結合航港局結合我們的這一個"},{"start":6816.725,"end":6837.444,"text":"在航的巡航艦艇還有雷達去做全面監控在第一時間就可以處理在它還沒發生之前我們就全程掌控然後去做相關必要的措施謝謝副主委的說明我想這個對民眾的通訊安全非常的重要以我剛剛舉例這位福建的王姓船長"},{"start":6838.305,"end":6864.847,"text":"他的這件事情就破壞了本島跟澎湖之間的通信所以你可以看到台灣對外連線狀況我們辦公室整理的資料有17個電纜然後目前只有11個是正常有6條就被影響所以真的是影響非常的大就通訊安全那我也想請問海委會啊如何看待所謂的會台措施中"},{"start":6865.888,"end":6892.506,"text":"中國拋出的完善漁業准入管理他說要研究讓台灣遠洋漁船靠駁大陸碼頭提供銷售便利那海委會有沒有討論過你們的立場是什麼可以跟大家說明嗎這個那個陸委會跟漁業署都有曾經報過言論但是這個陸委會的聲明裡面有特別提到這是這一個這一個是舊的這一個"},{"start":6896.168,"end":6912.246,"text":"舊的措施再重新拿回來就是曾經提出過的惠台措施被我們拒絕了但是這些措施主要的它還是圍繞在認知作戰跟統戰的這個部分我想這國人大家都很聰明都有能力跟辨識中國大陸對台灣的認知作戰包括相關的這些措施"},{"start":6918.335,"end":6942.351,"text":"所以您也認為這是認知作戰這是一個統戰的措施這樣沒有錯吧所以那您如何看待就是從海委會的角度這個和平之旅到底帶來的會是和平還是防衛意志的鬆懈當你們正要強化海上的國安然後治安跟平安的時候卻有人宣稱剛剛那樣的會台措施會帶來和平"},{"start":6946.123,"end":6972.884,"text":"跟委員報告賴總統曾經講過和平靠實力我們不能依賴別人的善利來增加我們自己的安全這是非常重要的部分所以我要呼籲國人就是只有國家安全只有實力你才能夠保證國家自己的安全這是要特別跟委員報告好 謝謝那我們面對敵方的消耗戰支持你們的修法那我們一起加油拒絕躺平謝謝是 好 謝謝委員"},{"start":6976.762,"end":6981.467,"text":"好 謝謝范雲委員 接下來請黃婕委員來做詢答好 謝謝主席 我們請副主委有請張副主委委員好"},{"start":6997.728,"end":7026.675,"text":"好副主委好首先這個增加海巡署的第三位副署長我是非常非常支持的那上個禮拜我也到海委會去考察其實就知道說現在興建廳舍的部分也是如火如荼的正在進行嘛那其實這個組織相關的改造也要跟著跟上因為當下我也了解到說其實現在我們海委會的業務非常非常多而且未來海巡署的業務只會越來越重副主委認同嗎"},{"start":7027.651,"end":7054.341,"text":"是的 會越來越多 越來越重對 我在這邊要講一下因為其實最近中國這幾年對台灣發起的這些灰色地帶的作戰是非常的頻繁包括說這些三無船 民兵船 海警船 科研船各式各樣的名目來侵擾我國的海域甚至是透過這個權宜輪來下矛割斷我國的海濫這些其實 這些例子 案例也都越來越多"},{"start":7054.941,"end":7083.746,"text":"所以我也認為增加第三位副署長是非常非常有必要的那我要在這邊請教副主委的是增加第三位的這個副署長你們已經有決定好他的業務執掌的內容是什麼了嗎跟委員報告這個如果今天順利這個法案能夠出委員會然後順利通過的話我們對於未來的副署長規劃我們是有一定的規劃的也就是根據他的專長任務分工來做分工"},{"start":7084.998,"end":7100.826,"text":"所以會是國安相關的業務包括說應對這些灰色地帶的侵擾還是說他會有一些什麼樣的職長的內容可不可以先跟大家報告一下我們會根據這位副署長的專長來做分配好那現在心中是有人選了嗎"},{"start":7106.441,"end":7133.128,"text":"因為這是主委的權責不是所以我們管媽管主委目前是有這樣子的規劃了嗎如果有的話也希望可以盡早讓大家知道因為我也覺得說其實像副主委自己也是兼具專業我也希望說接下來的這一位如果他自己就是海巡相關的專業是從基層上來的或許也很好那也讓大家知道說現在海巡的業務真的就是肩負國安"},{"start":7134.288,"end":7159.434,"text":"這個是非常非常重要的好這個就拜託副署長希望這樣子的進度可以加快組織法趕快修過選區也不要太久趕快讓這個新任的這個副署長可以趕快上任來協助大家那再來我要請教一下這個海巡人員的國安的案件因為其實從2023年到就是2022也有就是有很有幾位的在海巡署任職的"},{"start":7160.074,"end":7176.361,"text":"的人員都有洩密給中國的案件包括說因為欠債所以把一些秘密的文件就洩露給中國換取酬勞那也有2022年因為這個交付國安的機密資料而獲利的"},{"start":7176.801,"end":7198.059,"text":"那甚至是我們這個南區的機動隊也有一位因為他投資失利然後要還債所以透過網路跟地下錢莊借錢然後後來還不出來就被中國的勤制單位吸收這樣子的案例其實蠻多位的那林林總總其實看起來就是他們都有經濟上面的需求"},{"start":7198.84,"end":7228.127,"text":"他們因為欠債然後或者是家裡的狀況加進所以常常會因為這個經濟的壓力導致他們被迫被這個中共的國安單位吸收了然後變成他們是違反很嚴重的這個泄密罪那我在這邊想要請教因為其實我有看國防部也因為他們這樣子的情境呢他們有開辦了一個國軍的官兵急難貸款就是說我們自己的同仁"},{"start":7228.707,"end":7246,"text":"大家有急難上面的需求有這個貸款的需求那我們希望就是官方的力量也可以給予他們生活上的救濟讓他們不會因為這個經濟上面的困難然後變成說他好像變成一個國安的破口這件事情非常非常的嚴重"},{"start":7248.229,"end":7271.188,"text":"國防部事實上是有辦一個國軍軍官檢案的貸款但是他是用國防部裡面自己的作業基金來成立然後委託一家銀行來做那基金的規模是兩億但是我們因為我們海巡署沒有編列相關的預算但是我們有做一個特別的就是說我們去分析所有的銀行他的貸款"},{"start":7272.009,"end":7295.271,"text":"就是那個消費性貸款的利率然後提供給同仁做參考另外一個在我們人事室的員工協助方案裡面也有提供相關的法律協助那我們現在的政翁的體系裡面也有針對這些高風險的這個有可能是發生會類似這樣的財務發生風險的人我們有列管我們現在總共有列管有一百多位的同仁那我們會固定去"},{"start":7295.851,"end":7310.559,"text":"去訪視然後去了解他的財務狀況然後提供給他必要協助另外我們也有成立這個所謂的律師的服務團隊然後提供給同仁相關的法律協助我想這個部分對於這一個同仁的幫助是非常實際上是非常有幫助的"},{"start":7310.759,"end":7334.096,"text":"好謝謝我這邊就是想強調說其實國防部有那我們海委會其實也可以有類似的做法那當然危及國安就是不對出賣國家就是不對但是如果他們是因為這些生計上面有問題因為經濟壓力那如果我們可以協助就盡量多協助啊不需要讓他們去冒這個風險去鋌而走險然後出賣國家的方式只為了自己的生計是"},{"start":7335.157,"end":7360.257,"text":"好 所以如果我說這個貸款的專案你們可以的話你們可以想辦法編列相關的預算希望說這個送進來我們大家都會支持的好 最後只有幾秒鐘我要講一下說因為我們這個人權碰壁規則這個其實我們主席莊惠雄交委也是都有在關心那我們當時的結論是說要由海委會來訂定這個淨河海域的管理指引"},{"start":7360.757,"end":7370.278,"text":"那想問一下這個進度現在到哪裡了因為其實這個相關的潛水的玩家然後這一些民眾都非常的關心"},{"start":7371.788,"end":7397.66,"text":"這個指引已經訂定了然後我們現在第一個開始在做的是小六九部分那用小六九的經驗來做那現在在這個北部的部分我想這個問題已經解決了那還會第一個時間介入來做處理那我想在台北的這個部分已經這個北部已經處理完然後我們會根據這個相關的這個實作的案例跟經驗來全面的去推展"},{"start":7398.203,"end":7412.593,"text":"好 那是不是也請你們把這個管理指引提供給我們參考是 好 謝謝好 謝謝黃姐委員等一下麻煩黃姐委員來代理一下現在有請張雅玲委員來做詢答好 謝謝 那我們有請副主委好 有請張副主委"},{"start":7431.055,"end":7455.608,"text":"委員好副組委我想就是說這次在組織法修法的目的非常的清楚就是希望因為我們有越來越多的灰色地帶的侵擾所以希望增設一個副署長來讓海巡署可以承擔更多更複雜更多元的任務那其實上禮拜我國籍的這個基隆籍的全漁六號漁船當時失火沉沒之後船上的六名船員其實是由我國籍的"},{"start":7456.128,"end":7477.955,"text":"全魚36號救起來並且有海巡署來接捕我想就是說其實我們現在也持續的跟日方來進行聯合搜救我們也希望船長能夠平安不過我想要講一個重點是說中國海警卻刻意對外宣稱這是中國台灣級漁船進行救助明顯就是在吃我們豆腐但是我也非常"},{"start":7478.795,"end":7501.61,"text":"高興看到我們的海巡署有第一時間就作出澄清那也希望未來這種事情一定會越來越多那海巡署一定要保持一個積極的態度來捍衛我們國家的尊嚴好嗎?這可以嗎?各位沒有問題 我們一向都是這樣做好的 謝謝那接下來就是進入到我今天想要討論的重點就是說今天是世界地球日我想主委知道嗎?"},{"start":7503.41,"end":7520.163,"text":"那我想就是說我們在講世界地球日的時候不是只有講什麼節能減碳愛地球還有更多的其實是如何理解自然以及如何跟大自然環境共存那其實對台灣來說我們在講的一個很重要的重點就是海洋教育"},{"start":7520.783,"end":7549.429,"text":"但是我在看我們在2002年開始談海洋立國之後到現在我們在理念上面是非常非常清楚的但是我覺得到底要如何成為一個完整的教育體系這個落實上面看起來是有一些問題的就是說我們現在目前的狀況是教育部有海洋教育執行計畫海委會有海保署國海院推動海域教育推廣跟種子教師等等的看起來非常多元但是"},{"start":7550.7,"end":7571.022,"text":"我們怎麼去確保這些單位大家做的東西關於海洋素養的定義是一樣的那這兩者之間人才如何銜接也是一個看不太出來的也看不到這個路徑那我們自己參考一下日本它也是一個市面環海的國家它在2007年也制定了海洋基本法"},{"start":7571.562,"end":7597.919,"text":"那他也非常明確的在目的上面有講到三個重點第一個就是要提升國民對海洋的理解與認同第二個就是培養海洋相關人才第三個就是建立人與海共生的永續觀可是我們自己在看海洋基本法第11條它反而是聚焦在國民基本教育與公務人員培訓那我們的核心目標到底是什麼我們到底要達成什麼所以我想要問一下副主委就是說"},{"start":7599.22,"end":7626.386,"text":"我們現在相對於日本我們是缺乏一個整體的戰略架構所以我們是不是可以在這個架構裡面扮演一個更積極的角色來整合我們跨部會那是不是可以比照日本明確提出一個清楚的海洋教育目標還有這個跨部會的協調機制讓我們的教育跟產業還有國家的方向都可以真正的串聯起來這個是不是可以"},{"start":7628.516,"end":7644.656,"text":"我認同委員的看法跟做法其實我們台灣是海洋立國的國家海洋對我們來講就是我們的母親一樣我要特別跟委員報告就是海委會自從成立以後"},{"start":7645.177,"end":7663.005,"text":"那在海洋推廣上面它是不遺餘力的那甚至於它有這一個成立委員會然後有19個委員我都沒有問題啊這些我都同意啊但我看得出來大家都非常努力但是我現在看的問題是在於說我們的目標到底是什麼因為我們必須要一個非常清晰的目標才可以去確認每個人都是往我們的目標在前進嘛"},{"start":7663.905,"end":7692.753,"text":"所以這個是我想要請副主委回去研議的是不是我們可以有個更積極的角色來整合跨部會然後還有一個這個跨部會的協調機制這部分是可以的嗎跟委員報可以的我們目前是透過委員的方式然後固定委員開會然後也納入了六個部會包括還有七個部會的相關的那個次長部分來做相關的這個推動所以這部分接下來就是下一個問題其實也是就是我們在看到"},{"start":7693.453,"end":7710.846,"text":"整個白皮書我們寫了白皮書但是到底要怎麼落實從這個白皮書上面我們還是看不太出來跟各個委員會之間的界定工作任務又是什麼其實坦白說跟其他的單位的政策白皮書我們非常可以明確的看到就是說在"},{"start":7712.167,"end":7731.395,"text":"這個環境的部分呢他從策略上面到政策方案都有清楚的說明然後或者是說我們在這個觀光的部分呢他也有跟跨部會要配合哪些事項他也寫得非常清楚那目標也都非常的明確可是我們現在這個海洋政策白皮書花了400萬在這些東西其實我看不出來部會各自的分工到底是什麼"},{"start":7732.489,"end":7759.367,"text":"那這個部會分工到底是什麼不清楚目標也不明確的時候就會變成是說大家各做各的但是不曉得目標是不是一致的有沒有重複資源浪費的問題所以我想要請教就是說這個副主委就是說我們是不是可以具體的來跟跨部會做一個更細緻的計畫方案說明以及大家遇到的問題到底是什麼然後各自的KPI又是什麼這是不是可以在半年內完成初步的規劃"},{"start":7760.766,"end":7781.668,"text":"跟委員報告 那個白皮書在114年的9月25號發佈那其實白皮書裡面就有提到66項的策略跟250項具體措施那其實在附會後裡面它上面就寫得很清楚相關的這些執行項目然後各部位應該做什麼"},{"start":7782.088,"end":7806.736,"text":"那我想透過委員會召開會議的方式來做推動其實他在推動上我想這一個可能這個跟委員想要的應該是方向是一致的但是這個有明確的可檢驗的KPI嗎因為現在我們比較清楚的知道是說過去有像海視鏡這樣子的平台那現在你剛剛說你們也有一個跨部會的平台那這個跨部會的平台到底是如何在運作呢"},{"start":7807.116,"end":7832.003,"text":"他是委員會的形式我們現在有19個委員然後納了7個部會進來這裡面那因為這一個海洋白布書裡面他所有的相關的橫跨的航運漁業能源教育跟油氣等他不是好那我懂了你們現在聽起來有一個在運作的方式對不對好那我簡單問一個問題就是說到底現在哪一個幫我看一下這一頁圖到底誰負責海上活動秩序的維護這麼多部會到底是誰在負責這件事情"},{"start":7838.954,"end":7868.013,"text":"對啊 那我簡單就問好了今天我們在這個海上面就是剛剛其實王姐委員也有問到就是我們在海上的活動 水域活動其實是越來越多的衝突也越來越多到底誰來做這個執法權就像路上我們會有交通警察嘛 對不對那海上的警察到底是誰你說如果有很清楚的分配那到底是誰在做這件事情海域的這個項目是規範在海域油氣管理辦法裡面那它的主責機關是交通部對 那執法機關是"},{"start":7869.474,"end":7890.808,"text":"執法機關有關執法機關部分當然這一個有執法機關包括我們也可以執法然後這個月屬也可以執法然後交通部也可以執法因為它中間牽涉太多了因為像小船管理規則啊什麼這些規則太多了還有這個地方是不是公告這個可以作為油氣的這個都在國家管理管理署裡面也有相關的法則"},{"start":7891.448,"end":7911.509,"text":"是不是保護區這個都是我同意我同意就是說其實就是剛您說的全民署觀光署大家都有各自負責的列管工作對不對那我現在就只想簡單的問一個問題水上事故休閒活動事故逐年增加那到底誰要做那這件事情如果我們海委會"},{"start":7913.05,"end":7928.305,"text":"海巡署要做一個海上秩序的守護者我們是不是也可以針對這一件事情去做跨部會的溝通呢因為實務上你說漁業署它也就只有兩艘漁業訓練用船啊真正最多船的還是在我們的海巡署啊所以這個部分是不是可以來"},{"start":7929.666,"end":7958.648,"text":"就是針對我們這個海上的秩序維護來去做一個跨部會的溝通讓我們更明確的知道當我們的人民在海上發生事故的時候他可以怎麼樣子來誰會來協助他我們這個秩序的管理上面也可以有更清楚的各部會的分工這部分海委會可以來做海宣署可以做這件事情嗎跟委員報告因為這有跨很多部會那我們給你們三個月的時間做初步討論可以嗎我們會把那個委員的意見帶回去做研究再跟委員報告"},{"start":7959.178,"end":7978.076,"text":"好那我們三個月的時候我希望可以三個月之後我們會再來追蹤進度啦就是希望在跨部會的分工之上水上休閒活動的秩序管理如果未來進入強制執法到底是誰來做那各部會的分工又是什麼接下來我們就會來追相關的進度謝謝好謝謝委員好謝謝張雅玲委員再來我們請莊瑞雄召委"},{"start":7987.692,"end":8015.967,"text":"謝謝主席 有請我們海委會張副主委請張副主委委員好副主委好我想我早上聽了那麼多委員的一個詢答裡面這個可以感受到大家對海巡 尤其是海委會那其實是高度的一個支持今天這個八個版本裡面幾乎都一樣副主委你知道關聯嗎"},{"start":8019.723,"end":8024.48,"text":"呃...大概知道大概知道齁你講一下是怎麼大概知道"},{"start":8025.759,"end":8047.996,"text":"首先要跟委員說明的是第一個海巡署作為海上的執法跟國安的執法單位他負責第一線的國安的這個任務第二個部分就是海域執法部分第三個部分是海域犯罪的調查部分這個都是在海巡署的主要範圍裡面另外部分是"},{"start":8048.476,"end":8074.216,"text":"另外一個部分在面對中國灰色地帶部分我們一向是做得非常到位的而且對於中國的這個不理性的這個假借執法的名義來做相關的這個灰帶洗腦那我們在應處上面這個絕對是維護國家主權把國家的主權擺在最前面我想海巡組最近這幾年做的事情是可以引起國人的肯定跟共鳴的那當然"},{"start":8075.257,"end":8098.959,"text":"在立法院裡面其實我看連在野黨團罵歸罵但是對於整個海委會大家都表達高度的一個支持所以這一次的增設副組長裡面我看跨黨派大家也都表達支持但問題來了人增加了那你這個能力到底有沒有辦法同步去做一個提升那關鍵的一個風險有沒有辦法去做真正的一個處理"},{"start":8100.16,"end":8119.587,"text":"海委會喔,大家為什麼這麼大聲,第一項就是說你們要過國安,一方面你們要維持這個地安,還要去維持整個海域的一個秩序,同時你又必須要去配合整個國軍的一個演訓,以前大家在說警察包山包海,"},{"start":8121.348,"end":8150.208,"text":"各部會裡面真正包山又包海這些業務包羅萬象我看最吃重的就是我們海委會尤其是我們海巡但是其實也不要忘記裡面還有一個很重要的一個業務叫做海洋運動這部分我看今天大家在談到很多海洋秩序的維護裡面你說到底是不是誰來主責你就答得非常好啊大家部會差不多都分一組但重點就是說"},{"start":8151.755,"end":8167.01,"text":"海巡署 海委會 尤其是海巡署全台灣各個本土部門裡面 主人都在講這個你說人喔 人我看近幾年海巡署的招募 經費也增加了人也一直每一年 你看一直在補 從112年補了751112年補了855 114年又補了1007"},{"start":8174.477,"end":8184.805,"text":"整體來講將近七成經費增加了人增加了連你船艦你這個籌進的海洋這個海巡艦艇的前瞻發展計畫裡面你107年到116年你預計建造是141艘艦船艇這個經費也都400多億那現在交了119艘了陸續你還要去接收很多的船艦所以這個越來越龐大大家當然跟你們支持"},{"start":8203.74,"end":8229.397,"text":"本時在當內政委員會召委的時候那個時候海委會我看這個大家是得到跨黨派的一個支持大家會跟你們支持就是說你們的角色越來越吃重還有一個因素就是說你們的主委我們以前在內政委員會說海洋女神也剛好在我們立法院的大姐大很會溝通協調可是呢"},{"start":8230.373,"end":8244.151,"text":"很多事情還是必須要一人一人來算帳就是你這個海洋運動的部分這麼多委員在做一個關注你們的事情也這麼多"},{"start":8245.473,"end":8262.411,"text":"但是呢 這個對於台灣四面環海啦我對於自由潛水等這些海洋冒險的運動這個民間一直在蓬勃做一個發展而且你們行政院向海致敬你們還回函了幾年但是相關海域的管理機關的一個思維"},{"start":8263.993,"end":8291.885,"text":"不客氣的講 還是停留在上個世紀只要有安全疑慮 只要發生事故你們第一個想到的就是說要來個限制 來個禁止這個大家都怕出事啦所以乾脆就是不要下水這樣的一個消極的態度那我想 這個都抹煞了整個國人親近海洋的一個權利更扼殺了整個台灣海洋休閒產業的發展的一個空間本席呢 在"},{"start":8293.194,"end":8310.344,"text":"去年也曾經針對這個冒險運動產業舉辦過座談會當時的每一個主管機關的代表都講說海域安全喔 都算海委會管轄啦建議海委會來主政從事 讓大家來配合辦理這副主委這什麼意思你知道嗎這就大家撒來撒去啦"},{"start":8311.585,"end":8323.738,"text":"拍罐 讓你們準的上街你們海巡的船不是來管理這些的很多都是大型艦艇啊常常都涉及到國安 涉及到配合整個國軍戰軍的一個演練那各部會之間對於這些冒險 運動我就覺得大家撒來撒去這樣就非常非常可惜了"},{"start":8334.329,"end":8347.265,"text":"上一屆其實也非常感謝你們的海委會 尤其是你們主委在處理海洋運動這很難投保的 到適合保險的這一題的時候遇到觀光署 金管會 體育署都沒有人要坐在海邊那幸好你們海委會在這裡跳出來"},{"start":8350.408,"end":8375.999,"text":"來跨部位做一個協調這個也在本席在當召委的時候內政委當召委的時候我們去完成了海洋產業發展條例的一個制定那這個其實都跨向前跨很一大步但問題就是說你們現在如果說只是把它全職把它當成是劃定哪些地方不能去去的要罰錢那你如果說沒有去主動把整個海域的安全來做一個分級風險承擔機制的基礎架構把它建構起來的話"},{"start":8379.56,"end":8390.78,"text":"你的海域的使用規則如果沒有透明化運動產業的發展條例怎麼定不好你知道嗎所以可不可以加速來 簡單聽你的講法"},{"start":8392.771,"end":8411.171,"text":"跟委員報告其實行政院在109年蘇院長在的時候他推出一個很好就是剛剛委員提到的向海致敬這個政策那這個政策主要用意是讓民眾支海進海然後侵海然後到海邊去但是我們早期的思維就剛剛委員說的就是"},{"start":8414.853,"end":8429.597,"text":"但是從那個109年以後開始我們就大部分開放海岸線包括軍事管制區 包括危險區但是我們現在碰到一個問題是我們有各部會管理的區域像保護區 國家公園管理區這些他們認為"},{"start":8431.197,"end":8456.111,"text":"這個對民眾的危險有危險顧慮他們就把他化為這一個你不能去那不可以去那不可以去其實真正的好的管理方式就要像委員這樣子就是你做一個指引這個地方我已經給你建構了你的肥腸你要給他扶著大家都去過房子公園嘛他前面就有一個牌子啊裡面有什麼肥腸什麼肥腸什麼肥腸你如果要去你給他扶著所以我想這條規則所以你就講對了"},{"start":8460.413,"end":8472.458,"text":"就是說 那個冒險運動喔 不要說海域啊就不是海域 就在陸地上喔 全部都有風險啦所以是風險管理啦 哪有一項運動是零風險的零風險的哪叫運動 沒可能嘛所以涉及到海域的部分 我認為海域的開放跟管理喔這其實喔 你們要擔當 我期許你們可以"},{"start":8483.522,"end":8506.388,"text":"扛起跨部會協調的一個責任請海委會針對新興海洋冒險運動在海域使用的安全指引這個齁更詳細去做一個規劃我看今天黃捷委員也提到這個問題啊大家都關心這樣的一個問題啊所以說你們在上海致敬不要只有這個口號啦具體的法治框架跟開放的管理思維來做一個支撐啦要不然齁"},{"start":8508.368,"end":8535.735,"text":"很可笑啦 四面環海大家都只是想去禁止禁止這個思維揚起掉海委會我期待你們去擔當起一個海洋事務總舵手的一個角色好不好 趕快把這個規則齁我沒關係 你們三個會頂得好啦但是至少你有一個指引出來以後像你小琉球你再做一個示範啦再把它推廣出去我相信越來會越完備不要辜負啦"},{"start":8536.535,"end":8560.655,"text":"這個跨黨派對海委會的一個支持 您的角色很重 我們都非常清楚但是這一方面我們希望 就因為立法院在支持你們紅碼有時候要紅碼 待會就不要紅碼那關鍵時刻大家都要自己支持啊大家要這樣喘喘喘喘 說你們的主委我們這裡的大姐大處理員 媽媽媽但是妹妹都要自己支持那所以我期待這個部分 你們還是負起最重要的一個角色 好不好好 謝謝"},{"start":8563.49,"end":8575.096,"text":"好謝謝張瑞雄張偉這個真的很期待要拜託好再來我們請林沛翔委員林沛翔委員林沛翔委員不在我們請王宏威委員好謝謝主席我現在請我們的海委會的今天是副主委好謝謝請張副主委委員好"},{"start":8596.08,"end":8604.947,"text":"今天就是我們的組織條例的修正然後要偵涉一位副署長一人"},{"start":8608.59,"end":8633.225,"text":"我想請問一下我們現在確實整個海委會的業務範圍非常多任務也非常吃重特別像海巡署近年所擔負的責任也非常吃重我想請問一下雖然我們基本上大家會支持來補足副署長的缺口"},{"start":8635.706,"end":8662.845,"text":"但是呢 剛才也有委員都提到我們整個海巡署 有人力的缺口它不是單純只有高層副署長的缺口而是有整個的人力缺口比如說我在這邊看到的就是包含審計部 審計部他也提出來在去年就提出來說我們海巡近六成的艦艇人力都沒有達到配置的基準"},{"start":8663.726,"end":8692.878,"text":"所以這當然對於我們的海巡同仁來講其實讓他們其實會有一個他們的任務過重的問題就是近九成的艦艇人力沒有達到配置的基準那另外呢也根據我們立法院的預算中心他們的資料也就是我們近年海巡人力缺額的情形一直長期都存在而且呢實際的員額一直都逐年的遞減"},{"start":8694.438,"end":8711.962,"text":"實際的員額都比前一年還要少那可以說從109年開始除了看到113年112年是增加兩人之外每一年都在減少中所以我們現在其實我們的預算員額跟我們的實際的員額這個缺額是高達1300多人高達1300多人所以我想請問一下我們署長"},{"start":8722.904,"end":8739.658,"text":"也就是在海巡的部分我們同意曾社副署長在這個業務督導的上面能夠補足人力缺口但是我們基層的海巡人員的人力缺口現在要怎麼樣能夠讓它縮小要短期間補足我看都非常非常的困難"},{"start":8741.631,"end":8767.82,"text":"這邊跟委員報告 這要分兩塊來做兩個要說明 第一個部分就是在艦船艇的部分 另外一部分是岸際的軍職人力部分那在艦船艇的部分要特別跟委員說明我們每一艘船出去都要符合航港的相關規範也就是你這艘船最基本要配置誰要船長大副 輪機長這些而且船員 而且這些人都要拿到取得證照才能上船"},{"start":8768.3,"end":8795.899,"text":"所以我們船只要一開出去的人一定是夠的所有人都符合證件規範的要不然你發生事故了保險不理賠然後可能要面對這個罰則這也是我們在艦船警人力部分那艦船警人力部分來源有四種第一個部分就是警大跟警專警察大學我們因為他要受訓四年所以我們在四年前就預框我們未來要多少人力所以他就會把人力框進去開始受訓"},{"start":8796.86,"end":8823.962,"text":"然後景專是兩年我們在兩年前就把我們預估的人力扣進去所以最近這幾年我們人力原來從景大是從20個人現在增加到40個那景專的部分是從80個增加到160個也就是目前我們每年光從景大跟景專畢業學生就有200個人會進來到我們的那個那個艦隊分屬的艦船艦部分另外一個部分我們靠我們是透過特考"},{"start":8824.682,"end":8850.855,"text":"然後另外一部分是技術職類的特稿像輪機長什麼這些航海科這些進來那這些進來就會進到我們的這個艦隊分署另外一個部分就是我們現在的君子同仁有一部分是希望到艦上服務的那我們給他授訓取得船員資格他就可以到艦上服務所以基本上我們艦隊分署的人力基本上他是沒有問題的另外根據交船的期程人總會給我們這個請徵員額加進來"},{"start":8854.056,"end":8876.402,"text":"所以這個部分其實在建制部署上面的原則基本上是沒有問題的那另外在按計的部分因為去年有加了幾項的加計所以我們那個數據可能這一個不管是監察院的數據大概都統計到114上半年但是從114下半年三項加計以後所以你說114年下半年去年下半年人力已經大幅的補充嗎我們的招募的達成率已經將近九成了"},{"start":8882.683,"end":8890.939,"text":"然後我們的流引的流盈率增加了7%那我們114年其實我們人力是正成長的"},{"start":8893.482,"end":8898.703,"text":"114年 成長了400多人另外跟國防部報告 還有一部分就是義務役的補進來我們有跟國防部申請義務役 一年總共給我們440個人所以我們人力加進來如果按照你剛才所回答的部分包含警大警專 還有你們招募人員以及還有來自於國防部的現役軍人他們的轉到我們的海巡署"},{"start":8918.909,"end":8934.666,"text":"你說所以現在人力的補充的部分現在已經獲得解決了嗎我們是逐年增加啦但是沒有因為他缺額原來是缺額一千多塊降到九寶頭現在降到七百塊所以我們希望的是不是只有這個高層的人力要補足"},{"start":8935.327,"end":8948.431,"text":"基層的人力要補助再請教一個問題也就是說我們在任性特別預算的部分那麼海巡署準備要買451架無人機當然我覺得現在全世界包含因為你們的這個業務非常繁重"},{"start":8957.173,"end":8986.289,"text":"不管是偷渡啦走私啦或者是有這個抽砂船等等那我想請問一下現在我們的海巡署有關於就是零有這個無人機操作證照的人員的配置目前有沒有問題因為當然我們買了這個無人機我們希望也要有相當的人力能夠去做操作不要變成說有機無人雖然它是無人機但是它仍然要有人操作"},{"start":8987.357,"end":9010.953,"text":"跟委員報告 我們現在零六鎮罩的人員有將近700個人這是我們自訓的部分喔那另外我們每一採購每一款的無人機它上面就有規範就是你要幫我訓練多少個飛手加進來那這些試管的無人機加進來有將近2000個飛手那加進來我們自訓另外一部分跟委員報告我們現在自己 海訓隊自己本身有16個訓練場所"},{"start":9012.674,"end":9036.326,"text":"目前有16個然後我們現在要跟民進黨去申請就是成為正式的考場我們現在有5個也就是我們還有另外一個我們申請16個監評官也就是未來這些人員後續的訓練光我們自己我們自己就有訓練的考場標準考場然後我們有自己的監評官另外在比試部分我們今天才開始這個成立就是開始考試就是我們自己比試的考試"},{"start":9037.907,"end":9064.969,"text":"自己有考場有自己考試如果你這個容量足夠的話其實還可以提供給其他的單位吧因為我們現在如果要大量採買無人機其實要能夠做操作無人機以及相關的訓練相關的證照其實這些配套措施都一定要跟上我們現在配套是完全符合我們現在的需求"},{"start":9065.629,"end":9086.665,"text":"那我們未來無人機的人員的飛手訓練會源源不斷因為我們自己的考場 自己的考官 自己的標準考場經過明確認證的部分所以我們在後續的訓練比一般的機關更好好 了解 就考場現在已經開始運作了是也許到時候請我們的召委來安排一下考察這樣子可以 謝謝"},{"start":9092.176,"end":9117.307,"text":"好 謝謝王文維委員接下來請鍾嘉斌委員 鍾嘉斌委員 鍾嘉斌委員不在賴世保委員 賴世保委員 賴世保委員不在楊瓊英委員 楊瓊英委員 楊瓊英委員不在蘇清泉委員 蘇清泉委員 蘇清泉委員不在林楚英委員 林楚英委員 林楚英委員不在葉元之委員 葉元之委員 葉元之委員 葉元之委員不在"},{"start":9118.766,"end":9137.353,"text":"好我們現在所有登記發言的委員均已發言完畢訊答結束那委員質詢的時候所提供的相關資料或者或者以這個書面答覆者請相關機關盡速送交個別委員以及本聯席會好那這個"},{"start":9139.264,"end":9154.147,"text":"委員蘇曉慧、蔡其昌、林佩祥、吳宗憲、徐欣盈所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報並請相關機關以書面答覆那我們這個現在我們先休息五分鐘等一下稍後繼續開會我們就進行討論事項的討論現在休息"},{"start":9168.852,"end":9195.264,"text":"如果 沒關係喔好 大家都不用休息 我們就繼續囉那我們請那個我們請副主委到最後好好 那這個我們現在開始就進行討論事項囉我們就不休息了"},{"start":9196.365,"end":9215.535,"text":"那現在請議事委員宣讀提案條文宣讀時間一分鐘如果有修正動議或者負債決議的提出請儘速將書面送交主席台以利於這個現場印發進行討論那我們宣讀的時候如果有收到這個修正動議我們會一併宣讀宣讀之後我們就進行討論現在請宣讀條文"},{"start":9219.237,"end":9245.715,"text":"討論事項 殯案審查行政院罕經審議海洋委員會海巡署組織法第三條及第十一條條文修正草案等八案請參閱條文對照表行政院提案第三條除條文中副署長由二人修正為三人外其餘未修正委員張雅玲等 委員張瑞雄等委員省發會等 委員羅廷維等委員王美惠等 委員吳佩儀等委員徐富奎等提案第三條均同行政院提案"},{"start":9246.616,"end":9274.547,"text":"行政院提案第十一條第一項未修正 增訂第二項本法修正條文自公佈日施行委員張雅玲等 委員莊瑞雄等委員沈發慧等 委員羅廷維等委員王美慧等 委員吳佩儀等委員徐富奎等提案第十一條均同行政院提案宣讀完畢好 我們條文已經宣讀完畢現在進行討論事項那並按審查海洋委員會海巡署組織法第三條及第十一條條文修正案"},{"start":9275.902,"end":9287.928,"text":"共計有八案我們先請問在場委員本案是不是要先進行大體討論還是直接進行主條直接進入主條直接主條謝謝我們就進行主條討論本案是部分修正總共有兩條"},{"start":9300.799,"end":9328.147,"text":"那我們是不是就先就這個海巡署組織法第三條的部分請問在場委員有沒有意見沒有好那我們這個因為我們所有條文內容都相同那我們就按照行政院的版本通過好那第十一條我們接下來進行第十一條的討論請問在場委員有沒有意見沒有"},{"start":9329.258,"end":9355.734,"text":"好 沒有意見 那這個也是各提案的條文 內容均相同那我們就按照這個行政院的版本通過那這樣本案逐條均已處理完畢 做以下宣告第一 本案審查完畢 拟據審查報告提請院會公決第二 本案是否需要交黨團協商不用那本案就不交黨團協商"},{"start":9358.525,"end":9382.911,"text":"這個第三這個我們院會討論的時候就由這個莊昭級委員瑞雄出席說明條次引述條文部分文字及法制用字用語我們授權主席跟這個議事人員整理好那這個我們本次會議議程所列事項均已處理完畢到這邊結束那我們現在就宣布散會謝謝大家謝謝各位謝謝主席"},{"start":9386.281,"end":9386.301,"text":"謝謝…感謝…"}]}},{"id":"168733","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168733","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5880b40c5769f1a42726e852efaef810d96ca025fdcb7c4f2050ed7b2b649b6b9ecd0214d1f5425ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳雪生","委員發言時間":"11:18:14 - 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你聽不懂啊公務員保持行政中立 那我們是 經營媒體是事後管制梁處長咧你看49台是哪一台的 是綠的還是藍的報告委員 我家沒有有線電視所以我其實沒有在看請坐平台 平台事業處 詹處長"},{"start":200.447,"end":223.274,"text":"是綠還藍的五十台好了啦五十台好啦民視啦,民視哪一台是藍還是綠的我們其實都尊重每個電視台自己的那個立場好你請坐啦,不為難你們了你也不敢回答是不是,主任委員不敢回答"},{"start":224.591,"end":231.876,"text":"黨政軍退出媒體我來立法院十幾年了國民黨執政的時候民進黨要求黨政軍退出媒體現在黨政軍全力的介入媒體49、50、51、52、53沒有講過國民黨一句好話的"},{"start":251.694,"end":278.497,"text":"趙少康那一台TVBS也沒講過綠的一句好話的這個有什麼關係嘛白是白 黑是黑你不要顛倒跟搞核能一樣不搞核能的時候你搞核電的話台灣會怎麼樣怎麼樣你聽聽看好不好所以前幾年吳宗憲委員在總諮詢的時候他也不要做院長上台"},{"start":279.599,"end":303.21,"text":"他直接講了五分鐘啊 騙啊不要啦 不好吧你們NCC有沒有超然獨立大聲一點講 有沒有超然獨立目前我們都有目前我擔任委員之後相信過往的委員也是依法行政前幾年李昌祖密到我辦公室來"},{"start":304.824,"end":333.618,"text":"英俊挺拔年輕有為現在這個頭髮你看看什麼頭皮膚也孬了歲數也大了你經過藍綠委員的洗禮我真的很同情你謝謝委員我真的也不要給你太多壓力你審議上我也不曉得怎麼辦要把你刪掉又不給你做事對不對給你錢嘛你又在那邊胡搞瞎搞我預算很少是四大部會的零頭不到"},{"start":334.437,"end":347.31,"text":"你怎麼超然獨立法,你講嘛113年投訴案件有多少件,你講投訴案件新聞喔新聞有112年你們罰了有5件,罰了260萬廣告的呢?廣告多少件?"},{"start":358.539,"end":370.83,"text":"廣告罰了一千零二十萬,一百一十二年,一百一十三年不見了,沒有監督了嗎?沒處理了?沒處理了?都處理了,有有都有圖表證裡面有沒有處理?"},{"start":372.701,"end":390.454,"text":"就是有些要上委員會的沒辦法處理其他大概有些是很明確的比方說酒類超時不該的時段來播送酒類廣告那些我們都有處理投訴什麼意思嘛投訴以後到你們那裡就石沉大海四個字我們都有在處理就是照有些是處理多久了"},{"start":394.159,"end":420.78,"text":"多元意見的,比方說他有沒有違反事實查證這些東西要上委員會的你不要跟那個昨天我質詢那個運營銷,那個哪裏啊直升機冒煙啊還在那邊調查,調查要一年誰敢做那個直升機啊直升機冒煙你敢做嗎你上去以後,我放一把煙我看看跑出一點煙味來你敢做嗎"},{"start":424.119,"end":444.452,"text":"欸 多久了跟委員報告 其實我們的程序說一個吊帶 一個請業者打阿福園有涉違反事實的請業者提他委員會然後上我們諮詢會議 然後上委員會議有些配上委員會 剛剛跟委員報告過比方說他酒類時段播出不對的話 我們就直接裁罰了有些要上委員會的事實叫你沒裁罰啊"},{"start":445.413,"end":464.798,"text":"你沒裁發你媒體監管你要公平公正嘛對不對是你沒有啊你根本沒辦啊這哪個單位辦的舉手來請舉手不是沒辦都有都有都有就是委員心目中的A顏色跟B顏色的台其實都有被罰過"},{"start":466.82,"end":476.705,"text":"主委你們做了有事吧,前面講打詐,你打詐又沒做,你又沒監督媒體,還有260萬還有1000萬罰一罰不管多或少,總算也罰了一點,你把中間再把他幹掉中間現在開會也通過了,你們來個不附屬,我覺得我們立法院在幹什麼也不曉得,你們在幹什麼?"},{"start":492.692,"end":518.7,"text":"你們平常在那邊沒有沒有就是剛因為報告過了有些在上委員會之前的程序我們都有同仁都持續在進行該上諮詢會都有在處理主委啊國家的政事啊政務啊我們要正常的運轉你知道嗎不要大家在那邊打混啦你知道嗎你現在一個無政府狀態是不是不要是一個無政府狀態這樣有問題不好啦好不好好"},{"start":520.663,"end":545.693,"text":"你們媒體監督這個很多,你去弄一弄,找個時間找個誰跟我回報一下好,沒有問題既然我一直盯上了嘛,總要總起來啊,看看怎麼回事啊,好不好?是,好好,最後一個問題問你一下那個誰?是林部長嗎?是海嵐海嵐是你這邊還是?"},{"start":547.67,"end":552.7,"text":"兩邊都有,都是疊加的,CI部分是初步我再跟你講,台馬3號還來,障礙"},{"start":557.998,"end":577.623,"text":"大陸一條漁船飄到我們東宇來東宇的船來去求救大陸就來了一個救援船這個救援船我想是應該經過許可才能夠進入我們的港區進來以後一定刮到海嵐海嵐三號然後海嵐三號發出警告訊號"},{"start":579.008,"end":595.997,"text":"警告信號一定通知海巡說有不明船隻來了現在海覽誰去碰他就是國安法三個字不是告訴哪一段是國安法那這樣很奇怪海巡跑去碰這條船"},{"start":597.544,"end":618.214,"text":"這是個救援船,跟紅石智慧一樣你現在把他抓起來了,你不放他回去,你就放到我們這裡問地檢署,地檢署說你們沒告,不告不理問海巡,海巡說我只是你們通知我把船固定在那裡剩下就是你們開會"},{"start":620.933,"end":648.231,"text":"你們開會一個禮拜過去 兩個禮拜過去 三個禮拜過去欸 人家這個救援船很貴的啊是 我完全理解是 那個 呃 委員這裡面是什麼問題呢有法律的問題嗎是 那個 呃 跟委員報告這件事情我們會請就是各個單位我們去協調加快處理我說這個狀況就好像是高速公路上發生一個車禍結果兩兆雙方就把車子停在路中間結果後面的車子都堵住了什麼事情都不用做那就趕快我們該蒐證的就蒐證該那個"},{"start":651.133,"end":670.271,"text":"那個測試的就測試然後趕快就讓大家不管是那個救援船他回去做他的事情然後趕快去進行修復然後後面的法律的這些事情我們再來走這個程序不要讓所有事情卡在那個地方救援船來救他救他要給你碰撞一下救援船要賠錢嗎"},{"start":672.499,"end":699.014,"text":"這個事情喔抱歉那個是不是請任信司司長來來 市長 劉市長謝謝委員長期關注喔那根據我們現在掌握的狀況是航港局預計在4月24號就會開會那開會以後會確認他新的這個施工計畫呢是不是符合規定如果符合規定的方式去施工的話那雙方都不會提告就因為中華電力也不會提告但如果他沒有按照新的施工計畫去施工的話"},{"start":699.634,"end":724.347,"text":"後面可能就韓港局跟中華電力都會追究其行政的處罰跟賠償責任,你上報告這個叫什麼家衰啊,國語家衰有沒有,國語是不是叫家衰我救援團跟我什麼事啊我跑去救他,然後我還去賠償什麼等一下來個幾千萬,不曉得一億兩億的,這什麼意思啊一個救護車我要去救人嘛對不對,兩趟發生車禍我去救"},{"start":726.772,"end":746.236,"text":"我救護車去,發生車禍的事情還想我救護車把人家撞了,或是撞傷致死或是幹什麼的,救護車責任還更大。現在國安法碰到海海的問題又扯到國安法了,到底是不是國安法?"},{"start":747.628,"end":775.275,"text":"真的很困擾欸你們趕快把這個事情釐清好不好因為反正這個救援船真的費用很高啊我知道那個了解委員的意思就是說這個法律的事情當然是交給法院去處理但是我們這個疏發部現在就趕快去溝通想辦法讓這個事情趕快該修復我們現在最重要的是趕快把海馬三號這個海欄把它修復然後那個救援船就是讓它能去繼續去做營業因為那個之前委員有提到三號這個據我了解是蠻輕微的啦"},{"start":777.575,"end":795.783,"text":"滿清委但是這裡面有責任你能夠放人家回去趕快放人家回去我們趕快去聯絡、協調你們動作快一點因為我覺得底下基層的部門他也做不了主你們在上面的長官稍微用點心好不好你講一講一句話給他一個民視的方向謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168732","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168732","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5880b40c5769f119c9f806397c868c10d96ca025fdcb7c4f2050ed7b2b649b10ab85f957d34f9a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳清龍","委員發言時間":"11:07:54 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謝謝主席那在這裡我來邀請我們NCC的陳代理主委還有我們事務部的林部長好 請陳代理主委跟林部長"},{"start":19.482,"end":44.199,"text":"好 首先我們就直接我們代理主委跟部長早那今天我想我們最重要的針對我們電信管理法的一個修法第36條的修法我相信今天早上我們陳代理主委也"},{"start":46.64,"end":71.235,"text":"也回答了我們很多委員的質詢當然我們這個修法的提案那我們也都有了解那在這裡針對外國人的這樣的一個股本跟外國人的持股比例這些要求那我想我在這邊就直接問我們這個陳代理主委"},{"start":72.336,"end":73.278,"text":"我們這邊的態度怎麼樣針對這個修法針對我們對這樣的一個可能對我們的國際通訊的這樣的一個開放我們的態度"},{"start":88.763,"end":113.588,"text":"跟總召報告都是幾點第一點就是現行的條文如果沒有修正其實是可以操作的那如果說針對國家認定國安或者政府部門的需求的話其實可以另行比方說考量跟對方洽談土壁或土基就是government另外特別處理比方說採這個專用電信的話就完全不會是用36條用50條就可以處理"},{"start":116.329,"end":130.896,"text":"第二個意見補充第三個意見補充是好那性情的條文跟如果要修正因為要考量這個數據主權跟國安等等我建議我們這邊是建議說還要多聽相關人的意見以上好"},{"start":131.616,"end":156.844,"text":"那從我們主委這邊我們談到就是說其實這一部修法目前如果不送吧其實就現有的一個規定現有的條文應該就可以來容許我們這個國際的這樣的一個低軌衛星進入到我們台灣的市場對不對是"},{"start":159.565,"end":178.57,"text":"應該沒問題所以目前事實上也有好幾個業者跟我們國內在配合嘛國內業者配合對,這總之目前的畫面上所顯示目前都是選現有的條文走進來帶台灣落地的對啊所以基本上有沒有修改條文等於說"},{"start":180.003,"end":202.304,"text":"基本上不影響我們現有的國際衛星通訊進入台灣市場那如果依主委剛剛的意思如果有進一步的需要可能要再多聽多了解是不是真正的有這樣的必要對不對好那我在這裡我們第二頁好不好我要了解的"},{"start":203.425,"end":217.238,"text":"那個我們下一頁簡報我們也知道目前整個最重要的一個微信通信系統最主要目前我們一般民眾啊擔心的是詐騙的問題嘛詐騙的問題那當然對對國家來講對我們來講國安的一個風險也是非常重要那今天如果"},{"start":229.469,"end":238.953,"text":"我們對這個微信通信這樣的一個系統就剛剛主委所談我們沒有我們的一個國內我們的業者沒有我們的一個要求完全開放給外國國際進來這樣對整個國安的風險會有一個顯著的一個影響"},{"start":255.481,"end":261.184,"text":"那就這樣我是在這邊再請我們主委您針對詐騙跟國安風險這兩個項目你們來做一個說明好不好是跟總督報告這個詐騙 防詐"},{"start":271.75,"end":285.638,"text":"治安這一部分其實就涉及到說有本國業者參與的情況跟沒有本國業者參與的情況它的效率上的呈現出來就是不太一樣應該會不一樣嘛這個已經在這個平台那邊已經發現已經顯現那至於國安這一塊其實它是"},{"start":290.761,"end":307.931,"text":"兩個面向它是互相矛盾的就韌性而言任何低軌衛星特別是這個STARLINK它是韌性最好的但是國安上呢國安上它其實另外一個面向它的第二代它其實可以在台灣它可以不用設基位不用設基位的話另外國安問題來了"},{"start":309.091,"end":325.668,"text":"就是數據主權不在我們台灣這邊會是矛盾的現象那是矛盾 相互矛盾那這邊的部分我們從過去的經驗沒有國人的產育我們未來能夠來可控性我們就降低"},{"start":326.669,"end":354.708,"text":"所以這一方面也請您評估那另外這樣的一個修法會不會違反我們電信管理建立制度的一致性我在這邊也提出這樣的一個建議就誠如剛剛主委所談我們目前的36條其實就可以來運行那如果為單一的一個廠商如果來"},{"start":356.589,"end":378.56,"text":"調整開放那會不會違反電信建立制度的一致性那也會形成我們市場排擠還有我們所謂我們自己電信管理法我們自己所談的公平競爭原則所以我在這裡還是要建議有關於這個"},{"start":381.121,"end":404.138,"text":"最近管理法36條是否修正了真的還要更加的審慎 多以評估那也要保障我們通訊的主權 這樣一定要去做到審慎的把關 完善的配套 而能降低我們剛剛談的不管是詐騙 不管是國安 這樣都能夠把風險來降低"},{"start":408.061,"end":423.31,"text":"那在這裡我要再提一個另外一個主題就是我們現在我們有很多的一個民眾大家感受到非常困擾的就是偷拍"},{"start":425.231,"end":452.888,"text":"偷拍這個狀況我們目前還想在網路搜尋成為一個關鍵字那透過真空攝影機來進行偷拍我們從今年從2月到現在我們已經有好幾個案子是涉瑞所謂的案件那我們民眾在我們政府的公共政策網路的參與平台也提案"},{"start":453.849,"end":482.968,"text":"希望就真孔攝影機啊能夠來做源頭的管理那這個真孔攝影機啊我們一般業者都標榜齁它是經過我們NCC的審核尤其在我們網路平台在販售齁在平台在販售都是說經過我們NCC的審核這個合格那就變成合格"},{"start":483.849,"end":504.255,"text":"就合法然後這個偷拍的風險就全民來承擔那我想說我們在審查這個是怎麼去審查NCC怎麼去審查是跟總統報告真孔攝影機大概分兩大類一個是無線一個是有線無線部分他會利用這個攝影頻率去傳"},{"start":506.556,"end":521.316,"text":"那這一塊就有NCC的角色NCC在管啊那如果是有限部分那個是屬於一般商品一般商品的話即便是無限的話一般商品大概經濟部的BSMI就是標準檢驗局那邊也會有一些處理那如果源頭上要管制"},{"start":521.716,"end":535.745,"text":"假設說全台灣有公司說這類產品就不要再製造了那恐怕就是相關這個商品的主管機關他如果取得說主管機關推到經濟部就會有色品的部分還是在我們這邊那網路平台現在在販賣在購買非常的方便"},{"start":547.933,"end":567.893,"text":"我想我們速發部這邊也針對網路平台這邊的販售我想今天在這邊提出來是希望我們包括NCC包括我們速發部能夠針對這樣的一個無限的真空攝影機這樣在平台的"},{"start":570.215,"end":597.496,"text":"這個方便的購買販售那也看到了我們審查合格既然我們有審議有審查我們應該是不是兩個部會啊做一些探討討論來檢討我們現在的制度可能不能就來反映民意來溯源來管理啊這個部分我想說請我們代理主委跟部長這邊做一些研究好不好"},{"start":598.277,"end":599.819,"text":"沒有問題我們會找相關部會來討論原則如何來處理好 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已足法定人數請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄"},{"start":1428.308,"end":1450.414,"text":"立法院第十一届第五会期社会福利及卫生环境委员会第六次全体委员会议议事录时间115年4月15日九时至十五时一分地点群星楼八营会议室出席委员林月琴等15人面系委员杨全云等15人面系官员卫生福利部部长石崇良等及各相关主管主席如召集委员县一报告事项宣读上次会议事录议事录确定"},{"start":1451.598,"end":1470.671,"text":"邀請衛生福利部部長行政院經貿談判辦公室經濟部農業部教育部就美國貿易代表署發布2026年各國貿易評估報告2026MTE提及技術性貿易壁壘或食品安全檢驗及與動植物防疫檢疫SPS壁壘之豬肉牛肉與"},{"start":1471.591,"end":1499.325,"text":"牛肉产品Beta促进剂的最大残留容许量等各项食农相关产品及技术之要求我国所承诺之措施移除产品禁令或取消输入口岸检疫程序等并特就其中开放切片马铃薯带芽或腐烂或发霉等人能件整批进口与其敦促撤销基改食品竞销员对我国食品安全造成之冲击与因应作为进行专题报告并被质询"},{"start":1500.626,"end":1522.98,"text":"邀請衛生福利部、農業部、行政院、消費者保護處就寵物用藥新制上路載疾、犬貓疾、非經濟動物疾重症醫療銜接藥品流向管理四足取得可經信譽消費者權益保障之整體配套進行專題報告並被質詢本次會議專題報告由衛生福利部部長石崇良及農業部動植物防疫檢驗署署長杜力華報告後"},{"start":1524.381,"end":1525.422,"text":"請問委員會上次議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏之處"},{"start":1553.136,"end":1556.32,"text":"先暫時不能確定我們回頭再確定這場人數不足我們就先不確定"},{"start":1567.122,"end":1583.269,"text":"醫術等會我們再做確認那本日會議議程為一邀請環境部部長國家科學及技術委員會交通部經濟部內政部農業部衛生福利部國家發展委員會就我國氣候變遷調試現況檢討與全球調試目標接軌之推動進行專題報告並被質詢討論事項有三項"},{"start":1593.9,"end":1617.192,"text":"1.审查中华民国115年度中央政府总预算案关于环境部主管预算案公务及非盈利特种基金预算案2.审查中华民国115年度中央政府总预算案直辖市及县市政府一般性补助款环境部主管部分预算"},{"start":1617.776,"end":1642.034,"text":"第三 審查環境部含送財團法人環境資源研究發展基金會等四家財團法人115年度預算書案專題報告及討論事項才綜合詢答方式進行接著我們來介紹在場委員及列席官員首先我們的王振旭委員"},{"start":1646.718,"end":1671.156,"text":"列席的官員有我們的環境部彭啟明部長氣候邊遷署蔡玲怡署長會計處陳敬興處長資源循環署許志倫副署長化學物質管理署蔡夢玉署長"},{"start":1674.136,"end":1690.806,"text":"環境管理署嚴旭明署長國家環境研究院吳越春代理院長綜合規劃師洪淑信師長環境保護師徐淑芷師長大氣環境師黃偉明師長水質保護師"},{"start":1703.441,"end":1717.512,"text":"王玉斌市長環境資訊科技師張順清市長秘書處胡明輝處長人事處楊良斌處長政風處陳培智處長統計處侯美玲處長法治處林芬處長"},{"start":1731.65,"end":1759.804,"text":"國家科學及技術研究技術委員會自然科學及永續研究發展處賴明志處長行政法人國家災害防治防救科技中心陳永明組長交通部綜合規劃師陳伯旭副師長運輸研究所烏德船副組長"},{"start":1764.206,"end":1782.261,"text":"經濟部水利署陳建成副署長能源署陳崇憲副署長產業發展署潘建成副組長中小及新創企業署張雲平組長國營事業管理師邱萬金組長"},{"start":1791.032,"end":1807.818,"text":"台灣電力股份有限公司郭秋英處長吳政鴻處長台灣中油股份有限公司侯善林副處長內政部國土署廖文宏組長國家公園署綜合計畫組陳慶芳專門委員"},{"start":1817.616,"end":1841.294,"text":"農業部資源永續利用師黃新達代理司長畜牧師陳俊榮檢任計政農糧署董珍檢任計政漁業署邱怡賢檢任計政農田水綠署朱志斌組長"},{"start":1843.977,"end":1867.273,"text":"農村發展及水土保持屬蔡秀婉組長林業及自然保育屬黃敬彥副組長衛生福利部國民健康屬劉家秀組長醫事師郭威中專門委員"},{"start":1870.618,"end":1892.311,"text":"社會救助及社公司王彥勤檢任視察有答嗎國家發展委員會國土區域離島發展處黃文彥處長行政院主計總處公務預算處張振輝專門委員基金預算處楊靖儒科長"},{"start":1899.781,"end":1913.532,"text":"財團法人環境資源研究發展基金會 葉俊宏董事長財團法人環境權保障基金會 屠右文執行長有到嗎屠執行長有到嗎財團法人大科砍環境永續發展基金會 葉孟芬董事長"},{"start":1935.41,"end":1960.735,"text":"財產法人環境及發展基金會張豐騰董事長在部長報告前先做以下宣告115年度環境部公管公務及基金預算案直轄市及縣市政府一般性補助款環境部主管部分預算及環境部所屬"},{"start":1961.454,"end":1973.935,"text":"私家財產法人預算書案委員針對審查及書面提案起於4月30日也就星期五下午5點前以書面送交本委員會辦公室"},{"start":1975.56,"end":2004.426,"text":"沒有問題吧今天是地球日那我在這邊還是要提醒因為一個乾淨健康永續的環境事實上是人權也是我們國家應該給我們下一代的一個好的環境尤其環境是兒少的生命那環境的退化將會造成不利我們孩子在這個台灣的環境裡邊繼續永續生活下去所以我覺得今天的這個主題就相對的除了講預算"},{"start":2005.708,"end":2026.402,"text":"很相對的很重要的我們也希望今天不是只有今天地球日要去做地球的關懷應該事實上是平日我想環境部就應該針對這個主題應該要有一個相對應的政策那接下來請環境部彭部長報告並就討論事項那個病案說明時間20分鐘"},{"start":2033.707,"end":2054.448,"text":"趙偉各位委員還有跨部會的所有的同仁還有本部的同仁那今天由我來報告我們第一個是總預算案第二個是調適方面的一個情形那首先我也特別感謝林業勤趙偉他安排了這個在地球日的當天我們來舉辦這樣的一個活動對環境部而言每天都是地球日"},{"start":2055.069,"end":2083.687,"text":"不過對多數人而言地球日還是只是一天的一個活動那這個活動其實從1970年開始有第一次的世界地球日的一個活動從美國一位參議員結合大學生來抗議政府到最後美國環保署的成立到現在有各式各樣的保護地球的活動這個意義是非常的一個重大那今年就是地球禮所以我們基本上也請在座的所有朋友今天也一起做一件有意義地球的一個事情"},{"start":2084.247,"end":2111.122,"text":"那這個本部的這個預算當然跟保護台灣的環境跟保護地球是有關的那我們總共的預算呢公務預算是87.56億那基金預算是116.6億總共加起來是204.16億那我們本部的預算之外還有我們四大的這個單位四個財團法人的一個協力那這個本部的這個核心的主軸總共有四個第一個就是科技與智慧的治理然後第二個就是淨零與氣候的韌性"},{"start":2112.883,"end":2137.037,"text":"這個是近幾年來本部在這個面對環境的議題裡面很著重的一個項目第三個就是資源循環零廢棄那我們也提出了這個資源循環的推動法還有廢棄法的算法的修正也送到大院來能夠來進行審議最後一個是我們基本的功就是環境品質與健康保護國人的這個空氣水還有土地各方面的一個健康"},{"start":2137.617,"end":2165.009,"text":"那本部的這個預算呢去年在這個時候審的時候其實很多的委員說本部的預算怎麼還縮水因為當年的可能計畫的關係經過我們所有同仁的努力其實我們總共今年增加了7.02%增加大家的努力的成果那不過呢因為現在因為財化法的關係有20.63億移編到一般性的補助款所以我們總體的執行的規模還是一樣87.56億但是本部的看到的預算是66.93億"},{"start":2166.91,"end":2189.405,"text":"我們四大的預算比較多的我簡單的報告第一個是智慧決策跟執法也就是說現在很多的偷盜垃圾相關的情形智慧決策跟決法我們投入了5.06億5億是氣候調適與韌性這主要是針對水質的改善甚至說我們如何去水質的一個管理的工作"},{"start":2190.265,"end":2212.117,"text":"流域的污染整治也有3.58億這個是針對長期以來這個從1970年80年代台南二仁溪的河道廢棄物我們為了拼經濟燒這個電子廢棄物造成所謂的這個河川都是電子廢棄物現在還有四個點在那個地方我們預計總共行政院撥付給我們爭取到有13億這是第一年3.58億那第二個是資源循環綠色設計有2.23億"},{"start":2216.92,"end":2244.311,"text":"那我們這次整個基金的部分116.6億裡面最多成長最多的就是溫管基金因為過去長期以來溫管基金是由我們的空污費來支應這個是十幾年前定下的一個方案那現在獨立出來空污基金就是空污基金溫管基金未來就會有碳費來支應目前今年度我們編列40.55億那其他的部分回收基金21.7億土屋基金9億"},{"start":2245.251,"end":2261.691,"text":"環教基金4.7億水務基金2.13億所以溫管基金是成長最多的那溫管基金這一次我們預期可能會收入到45億左右那這個主要有四個項目大概就是第一個是我們要投資各種新的"},{"start":2262.031,"end":2284.81,"text":"减碳的技术的创新这个是对于大家都非常重要的第二个就是气候调试的韧性研究还有它整个能力的建构第三个是补助中央跟地方推动自主减量甚至产业的一个自主减量第四个协助工作更转型保护弱势族群特别是儿少还有年长者这是我们希望关心的一个要点"},{"start":2285.37,"end":2300.8,"text":"那我们未来其他基金的优化包含了空污基金38.4亿元我们会精进的维持固定污染源移动污染源的管制特别是移动污染源的部分现在尤其移动污染源已经超越固定污染源非常的多"},{"start":2301.36,"end":2318.888,"text":"第二個回收基金因為我們之前受到在這個疫情的影響還有財經影響那我們目前會務實的調整營業量的預估跟補助的經費第三個是土屋基金土屋基金我們因為會修法有新制會分階段來整治水屋基金的話會針對全臺灣20個水體化設加鹽管制區那本部有4個財團法人大小不一"},{"start":2326.792,"end":2341.837,"text":"那最大的是環發會一年大概營業額大概1.27億左右那我們未來本部比較密切相關的是環發會跟環資會那一個是7000萬一個是1.2億我們就希望它可以多變成本部的智囊"},{"start":2342.717,"end":2359.63,"text":"因為本部的話其實不需要再多的乙方的資助我們希望真的跟本部的合作密切在一起這個經過一兩年的改制也有很多的成效那環境權保障基金會相對的中型而已那比較少的是從桃園縣那邊發展起來的大科侃的環境永續的發展基金會預算只有18萬"},{"start":2361.111,"end":2376.517,"text":"本部在今年是一個轉型的關鍵因為我在前幾個禮拜已經對外宣布我們希望本部能夠大力的使用AI降低過戶人員的負擔同時增進我們環境的執法處理的一個量能"},{"start":2376.817,"end":2399.632,"text":"所以我们公务基金的预算会用全方位的数位跟AI的智慧的基础建设来取代来增精进另外一个呢碳费就是对于我们国家的近邻跟公正转型有很大的一个注意我们是期待创造一个近邻循环智慧的永续的台湾那至于说第二个题目呢是这个调试其实调试的议题是一个在气候变迁里面最困难的"},{"start":2400.012,"end":2421.444,"text":"因為這個每個人都可以懂但是說真的調試沒有辦法像減碳一樣有這麼多的產業或是商機可以帶動但是我們遇到全世界最大麻煩的問題這個溫度的一個上升平均溫度的上升非常的快每年每年的都在破新的一個紀錄那我們最新的這個海洋的資料海洋的資料其實可以看得出來"},{"start":2426.707,"end":2452.949,"text":"海洋的資料可以看得出來今年的海洋的資料每年每年這幾年都在破新高過去這個溫度上升都是由海洋來幫我們蓄積了一些量能但是現在海洋已經Hold不住了所以未來這個溫度上升恐怕會持續的不管是海洋跟大氣都顯著的上升暖化已經是非常迫在眉睫那目前如果依照全世界各個國家提出的減碳的計劃我們的調適規劃可能會上升"},{"start":2455.111,"end":2472.086,"text":"要以升溫2.8度C來做準備所以這個2.8度C是很多的國家提出的根據各個國家提出的這個政策報告的內容不過有些國家提出的政策報告可是做不到所以我前一陣子到歐盟去歐盟的所有的專家"},{"start":2472.666,"end":2500.563,"text":"顾问还有高阶的都告诉我说彭部长我们欧盟现在准备要用升温4度C2100年升温4度C来预做准备了所以这个呢也给我们很大的一个概念也就是说我们全球暖化在这几年因为全世界的变局恐怕遭遇到很大的调整所以我们势必要有一个更好的一个制度来面对这个升温4度C现在大概已经超过1.5度C了还会再上升2.5度C这是非常大的挑战"},{"start":2501.263,"end":2523.729,"text":"但是我們要做調試其實如果根據聯合國的全國的調試的差距報告這個adaptation gap這個報告這個報告非常厚它裡面有特別提出五個很嚴重的原因第一個原因就是說我們這個調試要花很多的錢但是現在全世界遇到戰爭或是通膨的壓力這個錢"},{"start":2525.549,"end":2554.619,"text":"不見得可以放在長遠的規劃上面所以基本上極端天災變貴可是各國捐的錢又變少了所以基本上造成這錢不夠第二個就是全國太窮如果有預算他先拿來還債不是拿來做調適所以很多的債務陷阱在富有的國家的援助裡面根本就是不夠第三個是調適其實很少有民間企業願意投資的特別是調適涉及到基礎建設所以基本上要做"},{"start":2555.259,"end":2575.793,"text":"很困難沒有辦法像減碳一樣可以跟這個碳費或碳定價結合在一起所以基本上民間的投入誘因是不夠的第四個是這個計畫因為這個調適涉及到很多的單位各部位各做各的也沒有一個整合的系統然後也很難培養這樣的人才所以基本上就造成很大的問題"},{"start":2576.653,"end":2596.625,"text":"那第五個是最大麻煩的是我們所有的政治人物都其實他的任期都遠短於這個氣候變遷這個調適的影響所以這種長期三四十年以上的這種長期的工程是幾乎在台灣或全世界都是被忽略了所以因為這個幾十年後才會見效所以這個是一個很嚴重的一個問題那這個問題呢其實全世界"},{"start":2602.088,"end":2631.447,"text":"在这份报告里面也坦诚都在空转调试都在空转因为这个钱根本不够花计划只是写好看的或是说这个做半套没有人管所以就造成说我们的这个调试呢其实这场仗打得非常的辛苦我们可能对于这种灾害的面对很有这个经验很有信心可以去处理甚至呢也可以编定很多的预算来做防灾可是这种长期的调试可能到最后大家都是属于这种"},{"start":2632.147,"end":2659.908,"text":"編列很多的經費或內容可是可能都不到位所以基本上這個是一個全世界不是只有台灣面臨到一個很嚴重的一個現象那我們環境部呢其實從國家過去喔這個調試是由國發會在主導在這個氣候變遷因應法修正之後變成由環境部來組織這樣的單位我們過去呢已經有第三期的國家調試的行動方案針對八大領域那這個呢可以完全對照"},{"start":2660.328,"end":2676.924,"text":"在COP30的時候在巴西貝倫的調試的指標都可以完全對照的無縫的對照59項的一個指標所以我們基本上是在這個正確的軌道上面了那我們過去呢從這個102年從第一期第二期第三期現在是第三期要結束了"},{"start":2677.264,"end":2705.067,"text":"都有些相關的一個調試的指標它代表的是不一樣的年代對於調試認定的思維現在呢我們準備即將要準備啟動第四期就是複合風險跟轉型式的調試我們認為這個時候是最關鍵的時候所以我們現在正在經這個協助來訂定這個臺灣調試的第四期的發展的藍圖那這個裡面呢真的要做我自己也從民間來也看到這個調試過去談了很多做的很少或是說我們常常會把"},{"start":2705.768,"end":2734.685,"text":"各種的長期的東西都把它變成是調試的預算所以有時候可能沒有辦法到位所以在這過去這兩年呢本部的氣候署還有我們其他司署的同仁我們就有一些新的做法第一個呢是我們實際上面對可能未來溫度會越來越上升所以我們成立了公司協力成立一個抗高溫的調試對策的聯盟從這個科學面還有制度面還有行動面找到一個可以做的因為那個調試屬於長期的有時候大家做了沒有趕"},{"start":2735.305,"end":2763.068,"text":"所以我們如何能讓大家可以現在我們就可以做得到但是呢這不是為了今天的熱明天的熱而是為了以後的熱來做準備所以我們先成立一個公私協力一起來做不是只有政府做大家一起做那第二個呢我們有這樣的東西之後我們就可以喚起民眾的調適的意識所以我們在北中南都辦了抗高溫的調適的行動產這個呢其實未來的推動就不是只有我們政府單位連民間很多的單位他們都有很多的創意"},{"start":2763.809,"end":2792.268,"text":"我們已經成功的這個喚起很多的創新的方式可以來解決高溫的一個問題那另外一個呢很重要的就是演練喔我們過去呢是針對38度C來做情境的演練但是我們現在一直我告訴同仁說我們就用40度整個例如說以這個6度發生40度恐怕在未來的夏天就會面臨到一個常態所以我們要針對第一線的勞工勞動者重點的族群"},{"start":2792.648,"end":2813.318,"text":"還有這個民生跟能源的韌性或是地方政府因為這個地方政府在調試是第一線也要一起來做所以我們在這個去年的夏天也進行了一次的演練但是我必須坦承說演練的還不夠因為我們對於災害颱風的演練很熟悉這種調試某一天某幾天會面臨到40度我們恐怕呢"},{"start":2814.138,"end":2839.269,"text":"大概目前因為這個高溫是並沒有一個主責的像災害一樣有一個主責的單位來負責但是我們認為這件事情也要一起做所以這個部分也感謝各個部會都有一起來參與但我們今年應該會很努力的朝邁向40度的高溫來做更積極的演練那這個裡面我們很重要的就是說提供我們的弱勢族群有一個可以降溫的場所所以我們有一個抗高溫的糧食點就Cool Map來進行"},{"start":2840.209,"end":2869.128,"text":"那目前這個已經有五千七百多處那也超過兩萬的瀏覽人士為什麼才兩萬呢因為現在其實這個多數人還用不到但是等到夏天很熱的時候這個就會變成是一個很熱門的一個點那這個最重要的是有七大的企業通路都加入在裡面那未來包含了可能是銀行還有很多的單位也都會把這個納入這個裡面包含了有水有空調有座椅無障礙的設施所以這個基本上未來我們也會開放讓大家是一個開放資料"},{"start":2870.47,"end":2885.152,"text":"讓所有的民眾可以從各種的方式得到哪裡可以避暑降溫那未來我們要最重要的是要針對關鍵的5%也就是說弱勢的族群年長者或是小朋友因為他們的溫度的調節沒有辦法像成人這麼的好"},{"start":2885.592,"end":2907.828,"text":"所以我們過去在去年也參加了總統被黑客送的方式中央跟地方還有很多民間組成一個團隊已經針對台南來做那今年我們也會針對其他的都市一起來推動哪裡熱哪裡人多哪裡脆弱要把它找出來先對這些族群能夠先做防護那我們目前已經有一些AI的針對獨居的長者"},{"start":2910.25,"end":2926.944,"text":"有一些溫度預警的設施有一些IoT AIoT的工具能夠來協助他們提早的通報不要等到人都昏倒了才做處理所以我們會提早來處理來幫社工爭取到黃金的救援的時間那麼未來我們很重要的一個項目"},{"start":2927.645,"end":2946.33,"text":"因為賴清德總統在幾個月前有特別交代那昨天在接見環團的時候他也特別說了他特別指示環境部來協調整合各個部會能夠來針對台灣的各地方的樹能夠來多種但是這個有別於傳統種樹的一個做法我們認為有一些新的做法"},{"start":2946.73,"end":2967.236,"text":"那這個報告呢即將會在行政院內部的進行討論當中那我們預計是4月30號在這個國家氣候變遷對策委員會裡面會對社會大眾來報告現在正在規劃當中但是我們認為這個種樹呢有五大的效益第一個是遮溫遮陰可以讓我們這個身體夏天不會那麼的熱"},{"start":2968.256,"end":2992.138,"text":"而且這樣的話我們民眾就可以不用一直在房間吹冷氣可以鼓勵戶外的活動那它也可以讓城市顯著的降溫這個降溫是很顯著的可以減少空調的耗用那這個對於淨化空氣品質是有很大的幫助的那另外一個很重要的就是防洪韌性可以增加這個城市的透水性減少洪災的風險最後一個就是生物的多樣性"},{"start":2993.419,"end":3016.972,"text":"如果這個樹可以很健康那這個動植物就會很健康那這個呢就可以讓不同的物種棲息我們會更舒服更在一個城市裡面那最後呢跟各位報告的就是說我們未來對於調適有三個重要的方向第一個是啟動第四期的國家的調適的計畫那這個呢會用一些新的方法例如說導入AR6"},{"start":3018.494,"end":3044.264,"text":"這個新的這個全球的暖化情境評估我們會全面的導入升溫4度C來做一些因應的做準備要有一些基本的科學的數據第二個呢我們在這段過程中這兩年我們發現我們國家面對調適並沒有一個主責單位等於是很多的單位都各做各的雖然都有分工但是沒有一個單位主責負責那目前呢已經有我們環境部氣候署我們向行政院爭取增設一個國家氣候調適任性中心"},{"start":3048.126,"end":3067.774,"text":"我們希望可以把它作為連結科研跟政策治理的國家級的專業資源的一個單位所以目前我們現在在報行政院審議當中那最後一個是我們希望以科學為基礎系統性的整合地方的能力建構因為條市很多都是要地方來工作可是地方目前"},{"start":3068.374,"end":3084.586,"text":"多數人是不重視這一塊的到各個縣市候選人縣長縣市首長候選人也很少談論這一個所以基本上我們希望能夠深化在地跟社會的參與能夠把這個最後的守護人民的一個氣候防護網可以建立以上所有報告謝謝"},{"start":3090.134,"end":3116.04,"text":"好 謝謝彭部長的報告現在開始詢答 做以下宣告一 有關本次會議各項書面資料均列入紀錄刊登公報二 本會委員詢答時間6加2分鐘 內席委員4加1分鐘三 10點半截止發言登記四 委員如果書面質詢請於商會前提出 預期不受理五 暫定10點半休息10分鐘"},{"start":3118.601,"end":3131.451,"text":"6 預計12點20分休息用餐13點30分繼續開會7 詢議本日不處理臨時提案 現在請登記第一位委員林瑞琼召委發言謝謝主席 麻煩我們的環境部部長有請部長"},{"start":3145.403,"end":3150.129,"text":"今天是世界的地球日 過去我們常常"},{"start":3151.431,"end":3158.854,"text":"在談氣候變遷的減緩但今天我們要特別來設定調試作為質詢的主題因為我覺得調試面對的事實上是現在已經發生的極端氣候的風險我們必須要誠實且要能夠去有效的去做應對我先問最根本的問題現在環境部負責國家氣候變遷調試行動計畫的"},{"start":3175.402,"end":3190.809,"text":"整體推動跟成果彙整那環境部對於我們氣候調適的成效是只負責收集彙整公開資料還是也負責評估國家整體的調適到底有沒有成效"},{"start":3191.229,"end":3218.136,"text":"好謝謝委員理論上是我們要協助督導每一個部會但是因為我們過去對調適的預算掌握不是在環境部的手上所以也跟委員坦誠的說我們大概都是他們送過來那可能是希望他們寫得更好並沒有一個更強制的一個手段所以沒有辦法像我們這次過去我們在推動淨零本部其實很強大的力道跟各個部會一起積極合作"},{"start":3218.536,"end":3232.185,"text":"部長如果各部會都說自己有做地方政府也說自己有交報告但最後高溫淹水乾旱海岸的災害跟健康風險沒有下降那環境部難道沒有一套那個判斷標準嗎來提供參考嗎"},{"start":3234.806,"end":3259.172,"text":"對謝謝委員這個就是我們未來如果在第四期我們很想要積極推動的因為過去是112到115這段期間其實這當中其實我是覺得力道還不夠就是報告可能是寫了之後真的執行又是另外一件事情可是這事實上是環境部的職責所在因為各部會的調適成果如果不夠具體不夠有效的話那環境部如果也沒有能力去要求補正的話"},{"start":3260.012,"end":3280.349,"text":"只是被動收件的話我覺得對這件事情不會有任何幫助尤其我們現在你也知道迫在眉梢已經要二到三度那甚至你剛剛有預計可能事實上是到四度越高溫高溫一度都會造成人際的傷害暴力的"},{"start":3281.378,"end":3302.157,"text":"這樣的一個可能會增加到4到6%那都不是好事更何況部長下一期的116年到119年的國家氣候變遷調適行動計畫10月就要呈報行政院了現在進度到哪裡各部會那個方案已經進入到指標整合還是仍然在各自體計畫"},{"start":3303.561,"end":3332.586,"text":"跟委員報告目前行政院就是從國發會那邊已經確定下一期的調試領域的這個這個領域範圍那現在各領域正在撰寫那現在比較需要花一點時間的是這一期的調試計畫會有我們去強調跨領域的這個合作尤其是像高溫的這樣的議題是當然我覺得高溫這一題也不會是單以環境部可是衛福部這些都也有關聯性那"},{"start":3333.666,"end":3348.361,"text":"COVID-30已提出備輪調適的指標我不要求59項的目標你都全部照抄看台灣應該建立自己的GJA的對應指標我特別比較關心我想部長也知道我這兩年來諮詢的"},{"start":3349.952,"end":3375.591,"text":"就是消除貧困跟生計環境部不能夠能不能建立氣候風險跟社會脆弱度的指標說清楚誰最脆弱在哪裡需要什麼服務由誰負責成效怎麼看因為心理健康跟心理社會支持也應該納入例如受災人口的取得的支持的比例這也都是我過去從兒少跟社福的角度來一直來跟部長請教的氣候調適的問題所以我要問環境部會不會"},{"start":3379.474,"end":3386.451,"text":"建立臺灣自己的GGA的對應指標那我在意的這些議題會怎麼處理會不會放進去"},{"start":3387.679,"end":3415.306,"text":"跟委員報告就是GGA的指標目前有59項但是因為它是全球性的所以它也要求每一個國家在適用的時候還是要因地制宜那我們現在去看它的七大領域其實跟我們目前在調試的八大領域是相合那我們現在也特別強調就是對於像脆弱群體這個部分因為我們已經訂了風險評估作業準則那要求每一個領域必須把它的脆弱度"},{"start":3415.711,"end":3440.676,"text":"然後危害跟暴露去做一個中整的考慮然後納到他的領域別的條式作為署長我們不知道你剛剛講我自己在看我們跟他們之間還是有差的就是消除貧困跟生計跟文化遺產跟知識那你也知道我很在意的就是消除貧困跟生計我不知道你剛剛講說兩邊都是合的可是我怎麼看"},{"start":3441.348,"end":3463.17,"text":"中文看起來就是不太一致我到這邊到底有沒有什麼樣的落差這個問題我有在關注啦那我們目前的做法是我們預計大概10到11月的時候我們會希望舉辦一個兒少的氣候的一個博士的一個論壇邀請小朋友來談因為我們現在有一個國家的氣候變遷對策委員會可是沒有針對兒少"},{"start":3464.651,"end":3487.267,"text":"那兒少其實那些有些小朋友他們已經跟我提出一個要求了所以我們將要整合各界一起來辦一個兒少的因為他的項目跟我們成人想的的確是會不一樣對那當然另外一個貧困也不是只有兒少因為我們的老人社福機構都是所以部長認為下一期的116年到119年的調適計畫不能只"},{"start":3489.768,"end":3518.901,"text":"納入國際趨勢更要把目標具體化過去很多調適工作都偏在宣導面下一期的目標能不能從我們計畫完成率改成風險降低的指標不要只寫發幾把扇子辦幾場宣導印幾份的一個手冊而是要看熱傷害跟熱相關死亡率有沒有下降因為過去我一直在推兒童安全的時候會常問政府說不要告訴我你辦幾場活動告訴我兒少的死亡"},{"start":3519.581,"end":3536.739,"text":"事故傷害死亡有沒有下降同樣的問題也是在這邊我們也希望看到的是這個那你的水資源的運用也應該要有漏水率的降低這個具體的成果目標所以部長訂出這種跟調適風險直接相關的成果的KPI有沒有困難能不能做到"},{"start":3537.219,"end":3552.797,"text":"我們已經針對這個熱就是未來的切面例如說熱大概我們東亞鄰近的國家大概有針對幾個一個是水資源一個是很熱這兩個是最多的那我們應該優先針對這個因為水包含缺水跟這個水太多洪災"},{"start":3553.718,"end":3569.084,"text":"所以這個熱跟水的議題是我們列為一個橫切面的指標那如果這個指標定的話就可以減少說委員您特別提到這是我們第二期的報告它可能將那時候的確都是宣導為主並沒有實質上的指標的效益"},{"start":3570.046,"end":3591.446,"text":"還有上一期有很多領域超過半數的項目都列為優先計畫以健康領域為例14項裡面有10項是優先計畫那我問的是環境部怎麼判斷什麼叫做優先超過一半都列優先的話還叫優先嗎這到底是應對台灣最關鍵的氣候風險還是只是給各部會自己列"},{"start":3593.3,"end":3608.666,"text":"這個是因為以前在進行的時候沒有做風險評估所以每一個領域他都自己部會自己去覺得優先他就列優先那我們因為這一期有開始做風險評估那是一定必須要依照風險評估的結果然後來排定優先順序"},{"start":3609.426,"end":3626.029,"text":"所以下一期我們應該會找出關鍵的風險指標優先來處理真正需要解決的問題嗎那我覺得就期待部長台灣不是聯合國氣候變化的綱要公約的締約方"},{"start":3626.81,"end":3652.877,"text":"但臺灣長期自主接軌國際規範推動氣候的治理那COP30之後全球的調適目標已經進入到指標化跟成效追蹤先環境部的調適行動計畫年度成果報告比較像行政體系的內部的成果公開來讓大家知道臺灣是不是也應該思考國家的調適計畫能不能建立更公開更制度化的審查機制"},{"start":3654.329,"end":3681.888,"text":"謝謝委員 這個是滿好的一個做法因為我們本國不是聯合國會員國所以我們要送我們的NDC或調適的報告基本上送的就是已讀未回我們希望 委員提到的建議說如果我們未來提的不管是NDC檢探的報告或是調適報告其實如果有一些國外的專家來幫我們審查然後讓各公眾的參與我們過去已經做了台灣本地的很多的公聽討論但是如果有一個國際的事"},{"start":3683.629,"end":3703.246,"text":"所以我希望比照我們的CRC或CRPD的人權公約國家報告審查模式因為我們一樣也不是在聯合國會員國可是CRC或是CRPD都是邀國際委員來幫我們審視我們到底跟國際的接軌的落差到底是什麼所以我們希望這個"},{"start":3704.113,"end":3724.781,"text":"能夠請我們的環境部開始示範有辦法嗎?可以,包括委員因為我過去在民間的時候在開放政府還有開放國會我都有參與那這個當時就有類似的一套程序在進行那比較麻煩的是說當時很嚴格說這個錢不能由政府出因為有政府出就有BIOS所以我們未來可能要解決這個問題我們就可以來客戶"},{"start":3726.181,"end":3750.027,"text":"我們也一樣期待 我們希望能夠儘速的去做部長 最後延續我們的選擇問題您原初的時候提到環境部跟國科會正在做跨部會討論成立國家氣候調適任性的中心那我支持成立更有整合能力的機制只要設計合理的話 我也願意跟部長一起來做推動但我必須先問清楚 現在已經有行政院的永續"},{"start":3751.127,"end":3766.511,"text":"好的一個氣候變遷跟進行轉型的專案小組那氣候法理國國發費也是氣候變遷調適相應肆意的研擬跟推動四項的主辦機關之一那科學研究也有國科會的氣候台灣氣候變遷的推"},{"start":3769.972,"end":3792.757,"text":"推估資訊跟調適的知識的平臺環境部自己也有氣候署跟國家環境研究院那所以想問部長說這個中心如何避免跌穿架屋的問題它必要性是什麼和既有的機構的權責怎麼去做區分最重要的是這個中心未來會不會有三種能力預算連結能力政策管考能力跟跨部會要求改善的能力"},{"start":3793.958,"end":3821.54,"text":"謝謝委員 這個其實過去的雨傘太多現在就是要一個大雨傘來支撐整個調試我們過去包含的NCDR就是國家災害防救科技中心他們有一個TCCIP在做這個事本部有兩個但是我的觀察是太多的連結就造成說彼此的分工雖然有分工但是等於沒有合作所以我們就希望這次也感謝各個國科會願意來一起來支持一起來推動這個事情"},{"start":3823.641,"end":3843.917,"text":"因為時間關係我們後邊就請環境部在一個月內就下面這幾個事項包含我們剛剛講的國家氣候調適的韌性中心設置的規劃都一併交報告給我這邊好沒問題謝謝委員謝謝林育群召委的發言也謝謝副部長跟各級長官的應答"},{"start":3858.092,"end":3871.786,"text":"方才我們的議事錄尚未確定 現在進行確定請問委員會上次議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏之處兩位委員沒有那議事錄確定那接下來我們請陳經蕙委員發言"},{"start":3879.809,"end":3883.877,"text":"謝謝主席 謝謝各位委員還有官員出席 想請部長 彭部長這位好"},{"start":3888.578,"end":3917.478,"text":"好部長你每次的口頭還有書面報告其實我都很認真聽這是你第三次使用AI了但你剛有提到說環境部今年也預計要大量使用AI我覺得善用是非常好的而且鼓勵公部門帶頭但是因為我已經看到第三次所以不得不今天要提出來我現在圈起來的請您看一下您自己的報告你自己會看過嗎第二窮國太窮災害的什麼變你看得出來是什麼字嗎"},{"start":3918.83,"end":3944.22,"text":"抱歉委員這個是我自己親自做的啦那有些我沒有檢查因為最後是我自己做加進去的可能同仁都沒有看過那我自己代表向你致歉好那你看一下3因為我其實我也很喜歡你做的報告我也想知道你想表達什麼意思但是像3公共設施的什麼入費只有少私投資滴滴你這個你是想要表達民間企業投資的太少是不是"},{"start":3945.16,"end":3965.973,"text":"調試因為他不像那個減碳一樣有一個明確的這個效益特別是探定價調試沒有調試價所以基本上民間基本上沒有人要投資調試的工作那第四個你說人才留不住官員換住其實這個基本上這個調試喔沒有一個專業是做這個事所以我們也沒有一個很好的單位在處理這個事"},{"start":3967.264,"end":3986.254,"text":"好因為我第三次看你的報告那之前也是你可以回去看那我覺得很重要是因為你們每次的報告都會在放上你們的官網那一般的民眾也會去閱讀所以他會不知道你到底想要表達什麼可是都很精美我是具體建議啦您之後可能也許你就是把它做的稍微簡單一點或是交對"},{"start":3988.455,"end":4012.948,"text":"因為委員這個是我到昨天晚上自己都還在做我把它修改的那我可能時間來不及我看得出來因為前兩次的我也都有看只是前兩次已經發生過很多次了所以今天就先提醒你禮拜一的時候有個大新聞然後也蠻多人重視我自己也覺得如果你是真的要做的話蠻有感的你有講到說如果通勤然後中間都有綠狼道"},{"start":4013.568,"end":4032.026,"text":"來做降溫這樣你就從家裡出發到上班地方都可以退燒但是呢今天要講很多人在質疑的一個問題可是你禮拜一這個頭版都做得很大今天的書面報告沒有口頭報告也沒有你說你要提出十年都市零這樣子的願景"},{"start":4032.506,"end":4058.945,"text":"那我是擔心成為下面公務人員壓力因為看起來沒有法院也沒有預算我很怕又淪為上次你講說偏偏有序號可是到最後經濟部直接說沒有辦法有序號做不到那今天我們就來實際的探討一下如果你要做十年的都市領可能會遇到什麼問題那我也希望可以聽到你初步的解決方法畢竟你八天後是不是要跟國家氣候變遷委員會來提出你的計劃嗎對不對是"},{"start":4061.727,"end":4083.637,"text":"八天後?是是好那我們首先來看一下很多人就在想啊這個東西牽涉的是六都還牽涉了至少六個部會好目前這個是六都他們目前提出的照齡政策那看起來就是欸如果我很在意或者是我預算足夠我就會多做一點所以後面的KPI全部都不一樣欸"},{"start":4085.051,"end":4099.889,"text":"那現在給補助的是林業署嘛那你之後這個十年都市林你會讓每一個都市有具體一樣的目標嗎包委其實第一個是都市林是沒有一個權責單位在負責這些都是地方"},{"start":4100.069,"end":4127.86,"text":"政府自己拿自己的錢在做所以基本上他們對於樹的了解跟樹的盤查其實整個都不夠所以目前我們早就發現看到這個問題因為我們的林保署是負責森林這個今天你提到的這個叫都市林那目前的確是沒有一個單位負責這個所有景觀的部分在處理所以為什麼說我們要提出來新的做法不過新的做法我們也要報行政院現在還在這個程序當中我們希望30號以前可以提出一個更完整的一個方案"},{"start":4128.12,"end":4156.627,"text":"好 那我們看一下這張這張就是你剛剛在講的農業部看起來就是現在主責造林的部會但當然你剛剛說對於樹的瞭解什麼的農業部我相信他們那邊也有人才可以做到你剛剛講的事情那內政部呢是在做都市規劃決定這個都市裡面綠化的制度那工程會是在講公共工程的植樹專區教育部負責校園裡面的樹那交通部就是你前幾天在新聞講的"},{"start":4157.927,"end":4173.573,"text":"如果有這個道路的綠廊道等等的跟你新聞的東西有點重複那看起來現在主責是農業部你現在中央到地方每個人都在做不同的事情請問你具體是要怎麼統整起來我們想聽你"},{"start":4175.133,"end":4201.642,"text":"這個八天後要報告你是要怎麼做統整八天後我們會有端出來現在因為我們還在規劃基本上我們還必須要按照一個程序因為這是一個跨部會要中央層級來共同推動的事那未來呢也不排除要有法規還有有專責的組織還有固定的一個預算所以委員還容許給我多一點時間你現在現在我不方便說太多但是我們已經都準備好了你提到的問題我們都想過了"},{"start":4203.083,"end":4224.581,"text":"雖然你今天沒有辦法回答但是我只好也跟你講我找到一些資料然後我們還是可以進行一些對話那當然這個是在講說我們比起WHO建議的綠地每個人的平均平方公尺是不足的那有研究發現綠地如果足夠的話幸福感會增加自殺率啊犯罪率等等都會下降嘛那你剛剛有講到說"},{"start":4227.804,"end":4250.423,"text":"這個其他部會有在主責我也去翻了這個你應該也知道吧農業部他有一個戰略計畫他一路規劃到2050年裡面有一大的部分也在講說他要發展營造都市林他有編預算從2025年一直到2030年每一年都會編將近13億那跟你的這個10年都市林你未來也會想要把它整合在一起嗎"},{"start":4251.784,"end":4267.751,"text":"不過委員你知道林保署他是負責森林他並沒有特別強化這個都市林因為他們的人力還有預算的限制並沒有包含的都市林那目前都市林的確在所有的政府分工裡面都屬於地方政府在推動的事情"},{"start":4269.192,"end":4286.127,"text":"我是想講因為你剛已經講到了嘛所以我也想講說我想要給你的建議啦這個以日本為例但你剛也有講到修法的部分日本他就是在1973年的時候正式的成立這個法源依據的都市綠地法所以他是由中央"},{"start":4286.627,"end":4295.271,"text":"也就是類似您這樣子的角色來制定綠的基本方針然後地方政府去做綠的推廣計畫納入城市規劃的基準所以你看到它左邊的圖它可能有綠的骨幹然後屋頂上的綠化公開綠地等等的全部都畫得非常的詳細"},{"start":4303.655,"end":4332.321,"text":"那韓國的話他也是給自己設定一個KPI他認為國家做得不夠好可能跟其他紐約啊倫敦比起來他的綠地面積不足所以他希望在2027年把人均的都市森林擴大到15平方米並且跟這個觀光還規劃在一起因為韓國他們重視把影視啊觀光等等然後國際的客人過來全部結合在一起那我也希望這點你要不要納入你八天後的計畫"},{"start":4334.081,"end":4349.708,"text":"謝謝委員提供幫我們找了那麼多資料那我們其實也都找過那我們也會把這個考慮進去那法規的部分的確我們有在研議然後未來因為這個是一個法規要從原先的沒有一個法規要訂這個的確需要一些時間那我們都有把它放進我們的規劃當中"},{"start":4350.928,"end":4364.062,"text":"那這個就是我幫您整理出來的你剛剛講到說你會從法規面著手嘛這是第一點第二個就是明確的層級分工因為你剛才提到說地方政府他們不一定對數有這麼大的了解那三我也認為在您上任後呢"},{"start":4366.465,"end":4390.653,"text":"可以積極的去做資料庫跟身份證的建立畢竟您說要大量運用AI嘛第四 KPI的治理成效這邊就有看到您可能有提到說這個降溫的成效啊但是希望你可以加入強風的防護率等等的因為台灣颱風比較多一點然後還有它的存活率因為現在大家看到這個新聞很多人的重點是著重在綠的覆蓋率因為這個是民眾比較直觀的以上四點給您一些建議好 謝謝委員 謝謝"},{"start":4395.354,"end":4420.8,"text":"接下來是產業面比較關心的所以我會快速問一下國內的碳費今年5月要開始繳納那歐盟也已經要開始實施CBAN了那很多業者啦他們說最近的這個戰爭讓他們的製造成本大量的提高尤其是跟石化相關的所以希望政府可以給喘息的機會延後徵收這一點的話我們想問環境部是朝哪一個方向可以進行來我們請我們署長"},{"start":4421.46,"end":4428.507,"text":"跟委員報告我們現在所有碳費收費對象他要繳的費率跟這個費用其實在法規還有他們的報告都已經確定了那麼因應這個中東這個國際情勢確實是有少數的這些收費對象來跟我們提出來可不可以有這個"},{"start":4444.162,"end":4467.615,"text":"暫緩繳交他們按照規定還是要展延這個繳費的期限那我們現在就是也有跟這些收費對象講如果是因為中東這個情勢然後配合整個國家的這個相關的這些穩定物價的策略的話他是可以在5月31日前來跟你提出申請那你預計讓他們延到什麼時候到今年底"},{"start":4468.155,"end":4490.573,"text":"今年底再來交就可以現在大概有幾家跟你們提出個位數還沒提喔還沒提因為到五月底對OK好那部長這邊也給您一些建議啦因為歐盟像歐盟他們會希望說當然他們還是要去執行這個攤費可是他們又很怕這個戰爭會讓ETS有很大的一個波動所以他們有具體的給予"},{"start":4492.034,"end":4514.057,"text":"一個300億歐元的補助去支持歐洲的產業去碳化轉型所以他們並沒有因為戰爭的影響來放棄碳費的制度那另外在日本呢他們是投入了2100億日元的資金協助使用潔淨電力的企業進行投資所以只要你這家企業有提出你都是用潔淨電力的話那你就可以領到這樣子的補助"},{"start":4514.977,"end":4544.097,"text":"那日本當然是全面有戰略的計畫有綠色轉型有數位轉型來推進這個他們日益增長的電力需求那我相信台灣也是面對到一樣的問題所以在這邊呢希望可以跟部長講因為我們現在這個比較破碎一點點我們在補助方面可能太陽能在屋頂上有補助或是有儲能系統補助這不是非常的直接有沒有辦法呢像日本跟歐盟來做一個直接的提供補助這樣子最直接的方式"},{"start":4544.737,"end":4560.098,"text":"包委員喔這個日本是有收這個地球溫暖化對策稅所以他基本上早就比我們提早很多年然後歐盟有ETS他有一大的Funding在那個地方我們是什麼都沒有所以基本上之後你會有大概5億以內的5億以內的"},{"start":4562.361,"end":4587.187,"text":"金額可以去做運用你有沒有考慮做這樣子的運用這個在我們的碳費的使用的目標裡面是的確是有把這個放進去但是因為我們的碳費總共加起來那個事情很多然後大家又希望可以從碳費裡面得到一些補助所以基本上還是有限啦那這個部分我們會期待未來跟經濟部來多做一些討論但是基本上碳定價的制度要趕快先行才有可能有這樣的這個制度產生"},{"start":4588.627,"end":4609.662,"text":"那這方面一個月跟你要個書面報告你未來預計跟經濟部怎麼合作嗎經濟部現在本身就有類似這樣的已經有一些製度的已經有一些補助了那他們是由他們原來的預算來做進行那我們這邊是針對減碳的部分跟他比較不一樣那部長我們就期待你八天後給我們的正式報告謝謝委員謝謝陳金威委員發言接下來請廖偉強委員發言"},{"start":4623.468,"end":4641.076,"text":"好謝謝主席我先請這個環境部彭部長以及我們經濟部能源署的副署長陳副署長好請彭部長彭部署長是那個能源署的副署長陳副署長好能源署的陳副署長"},{"start":4642.031,"end":4669.031,"text":"好那我想要先請教一下彭部長跟我們經濟部的代表我們的陳副署長想請問一下我國的綠能目標是2030年達到風電5.7GW光電20GW然後減碳25%到30%那想要請問一下依照現在的目標請問依照之前這樣訂定的部分請問漁電共生的部分是佔多少GW"},{"start":4670.061,"end":4691.932,"text":"跟委員報告離岸風電的部分2026年的目標是5.3G那太陽光電的部分的話是20G的一個量那因為過去有一些修法的現象我們正在做一些法令的一些明確的部分雨點共生的部分並沒有一個明確的量我查到的資料你們是說"},{"start":4693.112,"end":4721.941,"text":"有關於餘電共生大概是佔4.4Ghz請問是嗎餘電共生的部分的話它分成室內跟戶外型的部分那室內的部分大概是1到2Ghz之間那加上戶外的部分的話大概也是2Ghz左右對差不多嘛就跟我剛剛說的4.4Ghz差不多跟我們剛剛報告的是說4.4Ghz的部分的話是目前大概已經有設置大概15點多還有4.4Ghz的部分目標還在做處理"},{"start":4722.441,"end":4740.802,"text":"所以我想要請問一下喔 這個部長 這個目標當時是各部會共同討論出來的 對嗎然後算是由環境部來負責統籌規劃那請問一下部長 你們對於這個2030年的目標能否達標 是不是有信心還是覺得說現行其他的部會的執行狀況可能根本沒有辦法在2030年達標"},{"start":4742.143,"end":4763.148,"text":"的確我們也關注到因為去年太陽能的修法在本委員會我們提出我們準備提一個計畫要來訂定多大的量要光電環評但是直接被很快的被否決所以造成整個太陽光電的發展受到很大的影響我們有注意到這個事實近期的部分我就想要問說這個部分"},{"start":4764.628,"end":4778.04,"text":"比如說近期媒體報導也有多家的這個德國、西班牙、離岸豐電的公司有撤離台灣近期還有法國的離岸豐電的這個EDF也宣布終止彰化的案場另外還有備受爭議的這個誠心集團的漁電共生開發案"},{"start":4782.123,"end":4807.871,"text":"那公開的資訊也顯示這個晨星的餘電共生規模曾經被報導接近是1.5GW它等於是佔了整體4.4GW的三乘四左右啊對不對那台積電也曾經跟這個晨星集團簽下每年10億度電20年共200億度電的長約所以想要請教一下想請教兩位現在風電光電都出問題呢"},{"start":4809.127,"end":4833.362,"text":"尤其是這個誠心集團也出了這麼大的問題那是不是短期內不可能補足這個缺口那請問2030年的目標有沒有要下修跟委員報告剛剛委員提到兩個問題一個是離岸風電的業者的部分因為他的一些外在的一些環境有一些變化所以你回答我這個目標有沒有要下修目前目標我們會努力來達成會下修嗎不會"},{"start":4834.463,"end":4846.417,"text":"不會下修所以你覺得還是會達成就對了把規明確化以後讓業者能夠來處理那我想要請教一下我們的副署長那你們知道這個誠心集團過去有任何超過120MW的大型案場的開發時機嗎"},{"start":4850.558,"end":4867.781,"text":"跟委呃委員報告呃誠心呃這個別的業者他已經有相關的時機我了解他已經有120MW的案子他是他有單一一個案場120MW的這個時機嗎我查到的是沒有不同的案場他是加起來對不對不同案場分散加起來吼"},{"start":4868.393,"end":4883.688,"text":"那說實在的等於就是他沒有單一暗廠有這麼大的時機對吧那我就想要請問一下這樣子的單一廠商可以佔據三成四的這個餘電共生的發電量難道你們不會覺得很奇怪嗎"},{"start":4884.554,"end":4908.681,"text":"跟委員報告那個別的業者的部分他在做一些暗場的一些規劃的過程當中他是會用個別的一個公司來做處理那剛委員提到所以這家個別公司主要是因為那我在那我再請教因為剛我已經講就沒有了你後面的解釋都沒有回答我的問題再請教那原定的這個4.4GW也就是全年的53.9億度電的"},{"start":4910.822,"end":4921.325,"text":"目標誠心暗示目前光電占比最重要的類別想要請教一下它實際併網量是多少那換算成年度發電量又是多少度"},{"start":4922.335,"end":4945.007,"text":"那是不是也可能代表這個的案場如果沒有的話你們確定可以應該就是確定跳票吧20%的部分跟委員報告剛委員的簡報很清楚4.4Gbps的部分是目前的缺口太陽光電已經做15Gbps多左右4.44Gbps目前缺口魚電魚電的部分目前大概是1到2Gbps的部分"},{"start":4945.748,"end":4953.683,"text":"個別業者正在做一些農業相關的一些容許使用的一些規劃以目前來看所以這個案場他如果跳票的話你們是不是達不到目標"},{"start":4954.751,"end":4979.686,"text":"達不到目標 不過就是會用對嘛 你說達不到目標嘛 對不對會用一些屋頂型的暗場那我是針對這個暗場因為它佔的量體很大那它現在跳票 你等於就是跳票嘛你剛才也說會跳票嘛 對不對那我想要請教一下那這五大台灣最大型的漁電共生的暗場目前大約有三百個案子的暗場目前你們達到你們綠能二階容許也就是放養七成的這個養殖達標的暗場有幾個"},{"start":4982.017,"end":4998.498,"text":"跟委員說明就以個別在螢幕上這個案場來看這個120MB它已經符合相關的規定不過有一些案場下面的一些案場它還在做一些農業容許的一些相關的審核部分我是想問說你們放養七成的這個標準你的養殖達標的案場有幾個有幾個"},{"start":5000.219,"end":5018.271,"text":"目前大概有個別的案場如果以第一型來看的話只有一個是不符合相關的一些規定被人員署來做廢照的動作其他部分的話比較小型第三型案場相對就比較少一點可是我根據上下游新聞在2025年的6月的報導看起來好像"},{"start":5019.284,"end":5048.715,"text":"真正符合的好像也只有一個沒有啦七成的部分個別的案場因為他有一些符合的案子那媒體報導是針對一些審計單位他認為不符合的一些現象有一些處理好第一個你剛剛說基本上這個這個誠心集團的如果跳票就是你們就是目標會跳票嘛所以我想要講的是綠能不只是環境問題其實他也是貿易競爭力對不對所以政府推動能源轉型其實核心在於支撐"},{"start":5049.435,"end":5067.24,"text":"很多半導體業的RA100的需求跟符合國際的碳邊境調整機制CBAN的部分那誠心跟台積電有200億度綠電的合約也是在支撐台灣出口競爭力的重要支柱那原訂這個案件2025年就在你們的達標範圍這也攸關你們20%的綠能有沒有辦法達標嘛對不對那你們今年也承諾綠能20%的進度會在今年"},{"start":5077.863,"end":5084.328,"text":"11月達標所以目前依照你們的估計這些五大案場最快什麼時候可以上線"},{"start":5085.427,"end":5099.617,"text":"跟委員報告就是說以目前國內的企業需要綠電的部分他除了這個漁電共生以外他還有一些離岸風電的風場這我都知道我現在就是在跟你討論這個漁電共生好不好你這個漁電共生現在這個你剛剛也說這個會跳票嘛這個如果沒辦法順利完成的話所以我現在問的問題就是依照現在的這個狀況那你們本來說綠能20%的進度今年11月達標"},{"start":5110.385,"end":5138.281,"text":"想要問一下依照現在的發生的狀況你們估計這五大暗場什麼時候可以上線然後剛剛你已經說可能不會打標是嗎應該是這麼說跟委員報告這個五個暗場目前正在做一些綠能容許的一些程序那時間點要跟地方政府來做一些養殖方面的一些規劃所以我說預計你們大概什麼時候上線目標的部分的話會有其他的屋頂型的暗場來做彌補所以還是會希望能夠達到20GB的目標"},{"start":5139.782,"end":5158.757,"text":"所以你說這個案子就算沒有辦法順利,你們還是可以達標囉?你確定可以達標嗎?我們會以這個目標為主,但是我說你們覺得可以嗎?我們會以20GB的目標來做處理,不過剛談的,因為有一些法令的改變,我們要去把這些法令的改變來做一些處理。"},{"start":5159.958,"end":5180.987,"text":"我要跟你說這個案場其實剛剛我講的誠信集團這個案場它其實涉及了數十個銀行的聯合貸款底下還有無數的小企業據傳欠款高達十億元甚至已經算入你們的國家能源政策比重裡面的重要一環結果你剛剛有點說我會用光電其他的光電來彌補問題是這個案場"},{"start":5183.348,"end":5192.254,"text":"最重要的是也已經開發了那所以導致現在我想要問的事情就是說那這個到底可不可以完成這個暗場它現在的狀況可不可以完成"},{"start":5193.052,"end":5220.481,"text":"跟我比較關心的是這個案場什麼時間完成那這個案場主要就是卡在一些所謂的農業容許使用的一些程序的部分他現在做一些改善改善的期限因為我其實關心的不是這個單一案場我關心的事情是你到底可不可以達標我用這個案場來比喻因為他的量體是很大的所以我想要講的事情是很奇怪的是2022年的誠心集團發新聞稿說他幫旗下這個"},{"start":5221.941,"end":5242.875,"text":"新核能源完成了56.4億的連帶案但是在2026年的時候卻發文表示說這誠心綠能從未承接新核能源的業務新核能源案場的現況進度財務糾紛都跟這個公司沒有就都沒有關係請問一下你們有掌握這樣的狀況嗎那他背後的權責是否會釐清會不會影響到我們所謂的這個綠能發展的進度"},{"start":5249.198,"end":5276.884,"text":"跟委員報告個別的案場他的一些內部的一些財務的狀況這個我們大概不再做了解那以這個案場的部分我們有去了解邀請的所有這些所謂的連帶銀行相關的業者去了解他們對這個案場的一些相關的進度那怎麼樣讓他包含這個銀行端的部分包含這種所謂的下游端的一些承包業者的一些部分怎麼樣來緊迫拿到相關的資金這部分有在處理當中"},{"start":5277.344,"end":5296.646,"text":"在處理當中所以他會有問題嗎?不知道這個要看後續你沒有在掌握我們在持續掌握這個個別案場的部分不過要了解他未來在做所謂的容許養殖的相關的進度好那請農業部的代表好不好我請一下農業部資源永續利用時的代理司長"},{"start":5303.704,"end":5327.819,"text":"黃市長對我們一起一起回答看是屬於屬於誰可以理解的因為我請你上來那我還是要問一下這個經濟部在去年的2025年3月的時候有同意室內型的餘電得回歸農政的法規必須取得二階綠能容許才能與台電並往對吧那然後過去已經並聯發電上百件的"},{"start":5329.44,"end":5338.527,"text":"面積數百公頃的漁電案場你們回頭的核查率是多少那目前上百件的面積數百公頃的漁電案場會不會有漏網之魚卻沒有人負責"},{"start":5343.541,"end":5370.828,"text":"好 那會長會員那基本上餘電公升的查核目前298場的部分大概查核的部分大概250多場的部分其中大概廢止的部分35場的容許那其餘的部分基本上有些是正在包含也許會改善的部分以及查核通過的部分那大致上"},{"start":5371.828,"end":5399.754,"text":"都符合一些規定不過就是說有一些需要是因為現場可能所以是多少具體的數字你知道嗎實際上大概八成多啦八塊將近九成多的部分對那其他部分是地方還有一些要再做確認的部分我想要請問一下這個今年的時候三月你們的態度官方的態度也大幅的轉變所以轉往漁歸於電歸電的政策方向那這個官方證實漁電共生的新制草案卻有"},{"start":5400.61,"end":5404.954,"text":"漁業署、能源署、光電工協會研擬中也有與養殖團體討論那新制的草案呢這個改採漁業經營跟光電經營分離然後光電業者只要依規範設置即可不再負責"},{"start":5418.908,"end":5446.025,"text":"養殖經營責任即可取得發電收益以上敘述是否正確?那我剛剛討論到這個新的這個樣的案場也會這樣處理嗎?跟委員報告我想先澄清一下我想漁電共生基本上還是以漁業本養殖為本運能加值的部分這個原則是都沒有變的那我們強調的是還是漁電做所謂的專業分工那養殖還漁電共生還是必須要有所謂的相關的養殖經營的一個事實的部分"},{"start":5446.533,"end":5467.316,"text":"那專業分工就是說他基本上設置太陽光電的部分是能夠對我們養殖的相關產業能夠轉型提升的所以這並沒有所謂說今天就放棄養殖這個部分是要澄清外界可能比較對這一部分做有所得如果這個養殖經營跟投資跟這個風險如果落在這個漁業署養鞋或者漁卿或者養殖戶的身上"},{"start":5467.856,"end":5482.274,"text":"那我來想問的事情是說那大家都知道重電的利益大那養殖的利益小這樣會不會導致這個法規不明確的情況之下會讓這些養殖的面積不停的萎縮然後會不會發生這件事情你可以保證不會嗎"},{"start":5483.235,"end":5502.908,"text":"我想應該不會的啦那我們有強調是綠能是來加值產業的轉型升級那基本上我們還是要確保它實際有養殖的這件事情那所以我們就要把之前有一些可能設置光電業者以所謂光電極大化的部分去做一個所謂的合理的設置配置讓我們的養殖產業還是能夠持續的"},{"start":5503.208,"end":5522.025,"text":"好我要跟你們說其實我們支持這樣子的能源轉型要發展的好可是絕對不支持毀農滅魚的假轉型好所以不要為了保住你們的所謂的病亡的目標然後就犧牲法治或者是農地的一個公道好不好這不會好謝謝好謝謝廖偉祥委員發言接下來請邱惠如委員發言"},{"start":5540.086,"end":5551.031,"text":"有請環境部長彭部長有請彭部長有請能源署副署長陳副署長能源署副署長有請台電處長郭處長台電郭處長"},{"start":5556.574,"end":5564.303,"text":"主席還有各位與會的委員同仁還有政府部門的同仁大家好部長您好我今天想跟您交流錯誤的能源政策的問題這樣子我想請問部長請問你有掌握過去一年台灣平均PM2.5的濃度是多少嗎"},{"start":5578.458,"end":5601.775,"text":"12.8 去年我們這邊掌握的數字是12.1那沒關係也許可能是數字來源有一點落差但是您掌握的數字顯然還比我們高0.7那部長知道這個全台灣有哪幾個行政區域他的PM2.5是最高的嗎應該是南部 特別是應該是高雄"},{"start":5604.016,"end":5628.888,"text":"我不記得這個項目請市長來答好好好沒有問題再請市長補充說明報告委員目前我們PM2.5的合格的只有8個縣市那比較不合格大部分在中部跟南部地區的情況那請問您有掌握數字嗎數字大概因為它平均是12.8所以中南部的部分大概就在15到16左右"},{"start":5629.068,"end":5648.305,"text":"我們掌握的數字比這個還再淒慘一點就是來我們看一下雲林是17.4那這個高雄是17.3分別就是數一數二的高在所有的縣市當中那部長請問您知道WHO平均的PM2.5的濃度是多少嗎"},{"start":5648.965,"end":5674.123,"text":"你說WHO的標準還是全世界的濃度全世界的平均濃度全世界無法這樣算而且它WHO是一個概念式的如果按照WHO5的話維克的話全世界基本上沒有什麼幾個國家可以達標對 但是當然您提到的這個5是一個標準嘛但是我們台灣呢遠高於這個5好幾倍遠高於5這個好幾倍對 那我的意思就是說其實空汙的問題呢影響國人的健康勝據請問部長認同嗎"},{"start":5678.226,"end":5707.526,"text":"我认同但是也跟委员报告这空污的来源你不能用这样一个数字来看因为它有很多的来源我们的这种各种的移动型的我想来源不是人民关系人民关系是实际它身处在这个空间当中它有没有送到这些空污的侵袭那我们来讲空污有可能会造成什么过去五年有统计出来肺癌是十大死因的第一位而且不可否认的空污的尘埃其实会侵袭人类的血管壁"},{"start":5708.726,"end":5729.773,"text":"清洗的那個血管壁可能會造成血管硬化也會造成血栓血栓流到腦部會造成中風流到心臟會造成心肌梗塞這完全是不可忽略的健康危險因子啊對所以我們對症下藥我要把移動員各種的來源哪一個影響最大把它抓出來然後針對它做管制目前抓出來的移動員最高是什麼"},{"start":5730.799,"end":5751.896,"text":"就是汽機車啊 汽機車是最多的 目前在台灣的整體而言 移動員已經高於固定污染源了那請問一下 那您覺得雲林地區呢 如果麥寮電廠要重新重啟會不會是一個很大的污染源這個要經過的才算 因為這個我相信 因為我們也是看到報載說有這個為了這個能源的危機 可能有一些這個應對 這個請他們來回答"},{"start":5754.177,"end":5766.891,"text":"剛有提供一個數字給委員報告一個數字就是說我們從這個每年的這種所謂的各種各式各樣的來源比例我們的電廠大概在所有的這個排放源當中只有在幾%而已電廠"},{"start":5769.073,"end":5796.663,"text":"是不是污染源我想人民的感受可能跟你這邊有落差我們也看到數字雲林是17.4高雄是17.4恰恰這兩個地方都有電廠那我想電廠造成的空污呢我覺得在人民的感受裡頭已經是一個不爭的事實那我現在跟你請教的是麥寮電廠要重啟麥寮電廠要重啟可能會讓空污的情形雪上加霜也有可能會衝擊到當地居民的健康那部長這件事情問你要怎麼維護"},{"start":5797.503,"end":5814.235,"text":"包委員你剛才說了台北市平均是9.4那你剛才說雲林是17點多那其實有不一樣的天氣氣候形態跟那個什麼造跟各種原因會造成所以我們要對症下藥那至於說這個火力發電廠多少會造成這個空污的增加這是一個科學的問題"},{"start":5815.316,"end":5830.053,"text":"所以你們這邊掌握的科學數字難道你要否認這個科學的數字嗎科學的事實嗎這個時期絕對不是或是數字全部都是不是都是火力電腦造成的還有很多的來源所以我們要對症下藥很多的來源那很多的來源那賣了你覺得不是主因"},{"start":5830.794,"end":5838.683,"text":"你這個話一講出來原因之一那佔比重多少因為你好像有點要輕輕的要放輕輕的放出這樣的數字好那沒有問題我只想請問你為什麼麥寮電廠要重啟這個不是我的權責好不好"},{"start":5845.711,"end":5850.454,"text":"那請那個陳副署長麥寮電廠為什麼要重啟我們從報章雜誌來看到這個4月16公民新部長呢他就提到說這個要為了天然氣的一個彈性調度的原因所以麥寮電廠重啟了但是4月13我們的卓院長是怎麼說的"},{"start":5864.324,"end":5885.716,"text":"卓院長說四五六月天然氣調度無虞啊怎麼經過三天之後風雲變色情況批變變成是要去彈性調度這個天然氣以至於我們麥寮電廠要重啟我們的雲林居民何辜啊要用他們的費來發電犧牲他們的健康來成就這個電力的供應"},{"start":5886.716,"end":5900.577,"text":"跟委員報告主要是美伊戰爭那我們要增加台灣的能源韌性的部分那這個電廠他的電業執照還沒有過期的條件底下我們還重啟三個月不過這部分的話台電公司也承諾好那我們主計的部長"},{"start":5902.299,"end":5921.156,"text":"部長夸夸其詞就是說四五六月天然氣供應無預怎麼經過三天批變所以我們這邊想問一下就是我們的政府當然問人員署當然就是到底天然氣是供應無預還是供應不足因為讓我們感覺很混淆一下子感覺很充分一下子又不足感覺"},{"start":5921.937,"end":5948.092,"text":"我們看了非常的疑惑跟委員報告每一戰爭以後經濟部每天都召開應變會議目前在做天然氣的調度的部分在六月底之前都供應無虞的部分可是我們要增加我們能源韌性的部分我們不能把所有的天然氣全部來用所以如果以一個所謂的一個月的麥寮電廠可以減少兩個船的天然氣的條件可是你這個是以麥寮的居民的健康作為犧牲讓他們用廢發電讓PH"},{"start":5949.953,"end":5967.777,"text":"PM2.5的濃度上升然後讓大家的血栓不斷的在形成然後最後傷害我們的頭腦跟我們的心臟這付出了健康代價是很大的我們現在請問一下那個台電請問一下台電能夠回答我們一下新達電廠的4號機今年能不能夠如期的除役"},{"start":5970.539,"end":5990.24,"text":"委員好 跟委員報告今年四號機的部分呢那因為我們目前這個若按照環評我們四號機的部分今年年底是會進入除役那會轉成備用期所以就是可以如期除役嘛那我想我們全部的人在場都可以見證您今天的說法那我們也期待在年底能夠除役"},{"start":5990.72,"end":6008.392,"text":"因為麥寮的居民已經用廢發電了我們不希望高雄的居民在用電用廢發電因為這個PM2.5的濃度太堵了是造成十大死因肺癌的首因好那我現在如果提起呢新達電廠的4號機那就不得不提起這個4號機跟3號機組呢在2004年9月30之後一直到隔年2025年的5月23號這段期間違法運作的情形請問一下這個處長你有印象嗎"},{"start":6021.02,"end":6041.211,"text":"跟委員報告 並不是違法運作應該依照我們這個整個法規的規定我們除役之後的機組是可以轉為緊急備用機組但是緊急備用機組也是在我們目前國家法令的規範之下它有它的運轉條件其實我知道 這一段我完全有掌握但是這一段就是這個主管機關傻傻說不清楚那我們呢"},{"start":6042.051,"end":6066.093,"text":"已經認定了它就是一個違法的運作那如果這是一個違法的運作的話我們可以用這個例子來檢視呢空污法的救法跟現行法的妥適性那如果呢今天3號跟4號機組呢它的操作許可正式到9月2024年的9月33號到期那如果用救法來檢視呢來我們看一下救法我們PPT上面有救法"},{"start":6066.573,"end":6076.324,"text":"如果操作許可證到期那就應該要停止運轉這是用舊法操作出來的結果相信也比較適切但是在2018年6月25號民主進步黨他去主導這一條的宣法他把它改成說操作許可證到期之後如果電廠有申請展延"},{"start":6086.556,"end":6108.417,"text":"那麼在展延的過程當中主管機關會進來審查整段審查的過程當中機組是可以照常運作的但這裡會出現兩個荒謬的現象第一個荒謬的現象呢就是這個機組呢其實已經超過操作許可的日期了那你讓這樣的一個機組繼續的運作有沒有安全上的疑慮這是一個荒謬值得思考的地方"},{"start":6108.977,"end":6132.661,"text":"第二個呢這個機組呢已經超過操作許可日期了你讓他繼續運作而他的運作是取決於行政部門的審查期間行政部門審查越久他可以運作越久一個機組的運作是取決於行政部門的審查期間而不是取決於他的機能不是取決於他的安全不是取決於他的效能這個會不會太荒謬這個會不會太可笑來這個請處長回答"},{"start":6136.582,"end":6159.746,"text":"好謝謝委員那基礎的安全基礎的效能並不會因為我許可證的展延申請有受到任何的影響那因為法授予人民有一定的保障的權利那因為合法的業者業者在許可證申請期間那目前的法規的規定是授予業者在申請期間行政審查過程當中仍然可以依照原證的條件繼續操作這跟安全還有"},{"start":6160.086,"end":6187.035,"text":"原政的條件那如果空污很高也是要按照原政的條件操作嘛申請展延一定有他行政把關的目的完全不會像你這樣子完全好像是跟原狀來運作也完全沒有任何健康上安全上效能上的疑慮好那所以我們台灣民眾黨呢認為說2018年民主進步黨所修法的這個叫做霸王條款就是要讓台電的機組呢能夠無限上綱的運作下去"},{"start":6187.495,"end":6203.822,"text":"取決於行政部門的審查期間而這個審查期間有可能就是一個大開方便之門的一個條文所以我們台灣民眾黨提出一個版本就是如果這個申請展延的案件超過操作許可期限至多只能夠操作兩個月"},{"start":6204.983,"end":6230.728,"text":"那過了兩個月如果行政部門的審查結果還沒有出來就是要立刻停機這個是我們台灣民眾黨為我們控制空汙跟減少空汙盡的一份努力特別今天是世界地球日我們必須把這個訴求呈現出來那...不過跟委員報告也請委員要務實一點因為有些地方過去有發生過一些事實是地方用一些原因、藉故一直延期讓這個完全許可證完全沒法是所以我們就是要杜絕這個亂象"},{"start":6232.468,"end":6249.033,"text":"那個亂象不是任何業者造成的是有些行政機關他特別的去做處理所以也希望委員可以無時了解事情我們就是要讓這些行政機關能夠不要有上下其手的空間那除此之外剛處長這邊有提到說什麼展延期間還可以按照允許可佔"},{"start":6249.873,"end":6272.268,"text":"那你這樣不是讓申請展延的行政流程流於這個一個流於一個形式嗎所以我們台灣民眾黨也提出另外一個修法當行政機關他在申請展延行政機關在審理展延案件的時候我們對於允許可證有一個變更的權限什麼情況之下有變更的權限就是在"},{"start":6273.369,"end":6286.939,"text":"這個機組的操作有害於民眾的健康之餘所以我們修法也修出這樣的一個方向來那其實也是為了控制空污也是為了保障人民的健康所以我們有做出一個這樣的修法那請問一下處長您的看法"},{"start":6288.14,"end":6306.242,"text":"跟委員報告其實這個展言的這個相關規定其實在原來的空氣污染相關法規就僅有只是後來修正的時候把它修到母法去原因是基於性愛保護原則因為業者提出這樣的申請以後因為行政機關的審查拖延導致他必須要我想法律"},{"start":6306.823,"end":6328.212,"text":"他去修正有各種原因你講的信賴保護原則那是你的說法那我覺得展言呢我們要盡好我們行政機關的職責所以呢我們在這邊提出修法提出修法就是避免讓部長剛說的行政機關有上下其手的空間我們把它防堵起來除此之外對於申請展言的允許可證行政機關也有一個"},{"start":6329.052,"end":6342.842,"text":"變更的一個權限理由就在於如果他發現有傷害到人民健康之慾這是我們台灣民眾黨提出來的修法方向那今天是世界地球日我們就在這邊跟大家分享然後讓大家看到台灣民眾黨所做的努力那以上說明謝謝謝謝我們邱惠如委員發言待會邱政軍委員詢答完畢後我們休息10分鐘來接著我們請邱政軍委員發言"},{"start":6365.533,"end":6391.838,"text":"主席好 我們一樣請彭部長有請彭部長邱委員好部長好這兩天大家為了馬鈴薯的事情吵翻天我想請教部長農業部或行政院在決定按照美國要求的放寬馬鈴薯進口標準之前有沒有跟環境部來討論或者是評估這個決定對台灣的水質跟土壤會不會有什麼影響"},{"start":6393.359,"end":6420.597,"text":"報告委員這個我沒有參與那我們是不是請農業部或是我們應該這個不是我只是問說你環境部有沒有參與沒有沒有馬鈴薯這個那我再請問就是說昨天卓榮泰院長在備詢的時候他說政府會負責做到每一顆馬鈴薯都經過檢查那言下之意就是說除了逐批檢驗之外他還要逐顆檢查部長你聽完這句話你覺得很感動還是會覺得心驚膽跳"},{"start":6422.918,"end":6442.17,"text":"包委因為我不是馬鈴薯的專業我吃馬鈴薯那好你是環境的專業嘛那聽起來院長這樣講很有決心那當然我覺得這是先不管他做得到做不到啦那而且這是一個非常巨大的環境監測的一個黑洞那我又算了一下就是說去年"},{"start":6442.85,"end":6449.074,"text":"台灣從美國進口的8.2萬噸的馬鈴薯當基礎那以中型馬鈴薯一顆150公克來計算換算下來一年有5億4781萬顆馬鈴薯進到台灣那按照國際物流跟美國的USDA的官方數據長途運輸必然有10%的生理發芽率這代表這一年會有5478萬顆馬鈴薯會因為發芽而必須被剔除"},{"start":6472.93,"end":6492.875,"text":"那這五千多萬顆累積起來就是八千兩百一十七公噸的廢棄物那一般在我們在路上看到那種黃色垃圾車一次大概再四噸左右啦那八千兩百一十七公噸的發芽廢棄物在一年內要清運完畢平均每天大概五到六車"},{"start":6495.203,"end":6523.802,"text":"總共要2054台這個垃圾紙才能清理完那每顆檢查每顆剔除的這些廢料那未來會遇到的狀況是什麼就是發芽的馬鈴薯含有高濃度的這個龍蝟鹼那另外為了強行壓制發芽美國要用這個ERG美國常用的ERG就是CIPC的這個ERG那台灣對CIPC的殘留上限是30ppm那第一個問題是"},{"start":6525.123,"end":6539.773,"text":"剔除的馬鈴薯是農業廢棄物還是事業廢棄物應該是農業廢棄物對你怎麼追蹤留下這是農業部在主責那他不用跟你談啦他要進粉花爐還是要掩埋"},{"start":6541.029,"end":6566.586,"text":"這個是農業部在主責啦你環境部應該有意見吧不是農業部說什麼你就什麼啊因為現在還沒有進到這個農業廢棄物的這個階段所以也沒有那麼大量所以目前以這樣換算是這樣子啊他如果說要進來的話他確實就有這個量啊啊你們環境部竟然沒有你們沒有討論說未來要怎麼去處理這些廢棄物嗎沒有因為這個是主責還是農業部跟我這樣講啊他如果先拿去燒的話會怎麼樣"},{"start":6570.125,"end":6582.644,"text":"燒的話它其實這個不用燒啦這個其實它是一種生物的生物質質的這個觀念它分解到土壤裡土壤會自行分解嗎不行不行這個其實還是要配合一個生物質那怎麼辦呢那汙染了土壤"},{"start":6586.47,"end":6611.685,"text":"應該有一些生殖能或是最後最後不得已才要焚燒啦可以做一些利用可以做別的利用可以做什麼利用基本上他是一個類似生物質的這個廢棄物例如說做成SRF做更好的分解或是做的肥料或是各方面的處理但是這個我不是這個專業可能因為他沒辦法分解啊他的毒素還在啊"},{"start":6612.826,"end":6622.017,"text":"你去做其他肥料怎麼辦那不是又感染到其他的農作物裡面那怎麼辦你們有沒有想過這麼嚴重的問題啊"},{"start":6625.831,"end":6652.504,"text":"報告委員這個一般來講就是說農業部他們有訂了一個農業廢棄物的再利用的辦法所以這個可以再利用優先會先可以再利用嗎再利用一般會去用比如說是用把它做成最差的就做成堆肥堆肥那你毒素會毒素會分解掉這個會分解掉因為他會慢慢的會慢慢的去慢慢的是多久慢慢的這個要看你不要騙人你這個講話要負責任他"},{"start":6654.025,"end":6660.211,"text":"最差最差最後才會送去焚化爐你焚化爐裡面我剛剛有算過它含水量是80%那80%的話你這樣會造成這個焚化爐的溫度不夠那就會產生黛藥芯"},{"start":6671.018,"end":6690.592,"text":"你們懂嗎 有沒有去解決想過這個問題跟委員報告 會不會產生代曜性要看裡面有沒有含有氯的成分因為是氯的成分才是代曜性的一個源頭之一所以在焚化爐它的溫度都至少都850以上所以它有足夠的成分解掉我們還有這個進口8.2萬公噸的馬鈴薯"},{"start":6695.935,"end":6704.079,"text":"都帶有上限30ppm的這個農藥那表示說這有2456公465公斤的這個CIPC的藥劑會分布在這馬鈴薯的表面那在洗的時候那這些水要流去哪裡我們的污水處理廠有沒有針對這個CIPC這種歐盟禁藥來建立任何的阻攔或淨化機制嗎我們請我們熊寒署副署長回答"},{"start":6726.102,"end":6749.179,"text":"報告委員,就農業廢棄資源的部分,一般來講農業廢棄物在農業部定有再利用管理方式,那我們常見的方式不是先拿去燒比如說我舉個例子,即便是壁石豬等等也好,它都會有一些畫質的規定所以像這個案子是植物性的,我們稱作是植物殘渣,它會分解堆肥等等"},{"start":6751.48,"end":6775.67,"text":"我跟你講我現在是提醒你們就是說按照原來的機制只要驗到發芽就是整批退運那用新的資金的話那農業部你這個開門放毒進來那你現在是環境部你要幫農業部去擦屁股所以我希望這個部長你是環境的守護者你有理由把你的立場告訴我們卓榮泰院長這個東西到時候不是搞得人仰馬翻"},{"start":6776.91,"end":6801.422,"text":"你一顆一顆檢查我看不出他的能力要在哪裡來這不是隨便亂講的再來就是部長我們重啟核三我聽了很多次那不需要環評嗎目前按照現在的法規是不需要那如果接下來要做SMR環評法規會改嗎會改法規嗎SMR就要環評"},{"start":6802.768,"end":6826.704,"text":"你會因為它來改嗎不會因為那個是屬於新的一個能源的設施按照現在的這個環評的法規的規定就是要做環評好那經濟部和安會4年要花8億去研究法律是要研究哪一國的法律基本上他們應該是因為這個不是我的職責他們應該是研究說新的SMR的新的技術"},{"start":6828.004,"end":6856.49,"text":"他現在又說確認國際輕視這個SMR的商用品在運轉無虞經過國外授權生產預估國內最快2035年就會發出這個第一度電那所以國科會他們在四年五百億的這個淨零科技創新方案裡面包含SMR也會支持沒錯吧那經濟部國科會的意思就是希望我們臺灣不走研發而且要走國外授權的意思是這樣嗎"},{"start":6857.761,"end":6883.356,"text":"對 我知道 因為他們給的錢也不多啦不是說我們自己台灣自己做SMR應該是看國外有什麼好的選擇全球的輕式SNR目前已在商轉的國家只有中國跟俄羅斯那還在開發的主要國家是美國 英國 加拿大所以你們要找誰授權你會找中國還是俄羅斯應該是會找一個比較沒有紅色供應鏈的地方那其他都還在開發怎麼辦"},{"start":6885.925,"end":6906.873,"text":"基本上我們就在看說因為現在最快的SMR可能是2029年所以還是美國嗎其實還包含了像加拿大我這樣講我們台灣明明有一流的這個核能科研人才你們卻不去栽培他們我覺得這個是有點可惜而且也是這個放棄我們自己的權益未來把我們的這個能源自主的實質的"},{"start":6907.893,"end":6928.872,"text":"像是核心技術是看人的臉色發電設備是等候授權那末端核廢料自己處理的這個斷頭的概念我覺得我們買到的不是不只是電力而是一個永遠無法自拔連維修都要那個跟燃料都要被遠端監控的一個產業你懂嗎你懂我意思嗎這是能源殖民體系"},{"start":6930.123,"end":6951.969,"text":"所以最好的是用綠能所以我覺得我們要做是不是我們自己的人才自己要培養不過這個SMR需要龐大的資金跟技術那以台灣現在我們對於這種大型的能源我們大概都是只是使用者而言所以我們還是建議是積極的發展綠能還是最好的做法好那最後一個問題我請那個那個什麼經濟部經濟部"},{"start":6958.502,"end":6983.803,"text":"水電都是經濟部管的那在民生用水跟當成備用電源之間做取捨的時候經濟部的立場是哪個優先水跟電哪個優先當然是水嘛那為什麼水利署要幫台電備出說發電不耗水重容高品質的民生水流向大海這個水利法規定你們可以讓用民生水直接排入大海嗎"},{"start":6984.625,"end":7013.96,"text":"其實我們的耗水會的那一個我們的耗水會事實上是針對有台電的話他是沒有針對水資源有浪費掉他只是在高位能的落差而已然後呢那個水那個你像我就以翡翠水庫來講他的體積是很大的嘛可是他底下的那個叫什麼那個那個那個下游接水的那個植檀宴是吧植檀宴他就一個小臉盆大概400萬噸而已你們水排下去之後他他的水去哪裡"},{"start":7014.636,"end":7041.284,"text":"他的水他就會進進水廠有的就會進水廠直接直接進水廠直接進水廠他不會直接排到大海去對他有的有收就是會進水廠的那萬一水廠水廠裝的下嗎你為了發電你有想過這個問題嗎其實整個耗水會他用的事實上他應該是台電要跟粉碎水庫他們要去談因為耗水會是針對有浪費水的這一塊來針所以他對發電業這是沒有來針的"},{"start":7044.514,"end":7073.866,"text":"對啊但是你現在是水資源的問題啊我們現在談的是水資源的問題你要發電我們沒有意見你們這樣但是你要想到水資源這樣子發完電之後你說流到水廠水廠那邊能夠負載能夠負荷這麼大的水量嗎這個就要看那剩下的水去哪裡了剩下的水一定往外排嘛它一定是溢出嘛對不對對啊那浪費的水那這個損失要跟誰要啊"},{"start":7074.774,"end":7100.282,"text":"這個事實上這個是應該是台電要跟水水他們要去談你經濟部不管嗎我們署裡面對用耗水位的這一個有沒有就是耗水位他不是當做一個你真用的一個條件好啦我因為時間的關係我不想講那麼多那你們自己好好去跟台電跟跟這個這個肥水水庫這邊你們做好溝通這個水資源很珍貴不要浪費好不好是"},{"start":7102.8,"end":7104.787,"text":"謝謝邱正軍委員發言 接下來我們休息十分鐘"},{"start":7127.272,"end":7128.673,"text":"主委主委"},{"start":7143.46,"end":7152.243,"text":"我扶你,我扶你,我扶你,我扶你,我扶你,你慢慢走,你慢慢走"},{"start":7162.609,"end":7162.789,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":7723.766,"end":7736.325,"text":"好 現在開會接下來我們請王玉民委員發言謝謝主席 我們有請部長有請彭部長"},{"start":7742.264,"end":7758.158,"text":"我要請問你碳費的問題我們碳費5月正式開徵那今年的碳費收入你們預估是45億對不對那原來你的預估其實是要年增60億那這短少的15億將近25%到底是為什麼"},{"start":7761.192,"end":7772.366,"text":"因為其實每年要看企業申報的量那我是不是請我們署長來報告對 你可不可以讓大家知道說你這短差的15億為什麼跟原來預期的目標少了25%"},{"start":7774.202,"end":7790.983,"text":"我們碳費的目的其實是要求是在減量所以在制度設計上有兩種優惠費率一個是用標竿的方式那如果企業提自主減量計畫他會用適用100元的費率另外一個是對其國際以科學減量基礎的SBI"},{"start":7791.584,"end":7808.685,"text":"那很嚴格那他就適用50元的費率那原先我們在估的時候我們是估大概可能沒有到這個九成會提自主減量計劃那也沒有那麼高的適用這個50元的費率可是當去年整個制度正式上路之後"},{"start":7809.105,"end":7823.541,"text":"其實有超過九成的這些工廠它是提了自主減量計畫而且有六十幾個廠它提的是用五十元的費率所以也造成整個估算可以收到的是四十五億"},{"start":7824.162,"end":7835.345,"text":"好 就是因為九成的企業提了自主減量計畫所以導致這個收益少了15億嘛低於你原來的估算那所以我們要檢討的就是你的這個企業自主減量計畫到底"},{"start":7840.367,"end":7846.872,"text":"有沒有真的達到企業減碳的效果你這個減量計畫是不是企業說了算了因為現在環團有指出來你現在的企業自主減量計畫現在有三大的缺失我們可以來討論一下就是說你到底你的嚴謹度怎麼樣第一個就是他其實並沒有設定出中長期的這個"},{"start":7864.226,"end":7888.483,"text":"減量的目標那減量的路徑也缺乏科學依據跟數據的支撐他的執行成效難以量化評估這個是第一個第二個他缺乏透明監督的機制也就是企業自主減量計畫他缺乏內部查核機制跟第三方的驗證規劃資訊揭露不夠即使透明難以確保"},{"start":7892.565,"end":7912.711,"text":"減量數據的真實性第三個缺失是他欠缺具體減量的措施因為這個環團指出來就是計畫這個是過於籠統沒有明確列出他的設備更新因為設備更新也是非常的重要能源轉型或者是製程改良的技術細節與預計投入的成本"},{"start":7915.572,"end":7930.084,"text":"就是這三大缺失我要就教部長你自己有看到這樣一個問題嗎因為原本在國際上面他對於這個碳費的徵收他一個有效的工具是他可以逐步去調高他的碳費"},{"start":7931.665,"end":7950.746,"text":"碳費的調升是一個有效的工具但是你們環境部已經講了我們不採取碳費的調升我不曉得是現在不調升還是未來都不會調升你採取的是企業自主減量計畫但是你的自主減量計畫如果是這麼如此的鬆散企業說了算"},{"start":7952.327,"end":7973.036,"text":"這個跟你未來預計要達到的成效恐怕會出現很大的落差部長你自己有看到這個問題嗎包委這個我在產業界待過很吃到這個情形我不認為這是你說的三個缺失因為第一個有沒有減量目標他必須承諾2030年有沒有達得到這是白紙黑字他達不到就要回到300塊的減量的額度所以具體目標是一定要做的"},{"start":7973.396,"end":7993.596,"text":"那透明監督呢这个计划我们经过大家一起沟通能够开放的就开放全世界对于这种探听架台湾算是开放的最多的你不能所有的企业他做了什么样的小事情有些是跟他的敌对对手的竞争力是有关的那他其实该放的我们就会放你放在哪里"},{"start":7994.748,"end":8015.329,"text":"網站上面啊都有公告嘛都有公告在你的碳費專區都有公告出來是沒錯沒錯那第三個呢簡單說是他一定要列那列金融專家審查審議過這是由本部聘請的專家審議過才能夠確定那審議的內容有沒有包括環團指出來的設備更新能源轉型或製程改良的技術細節當然這個有沒有這麼的詳細"},{"start":8016.75,"end":8037.852,"text":"當然很詳細基本上我跟委員報告這個對我來說這個是一個企業運轉的機密我們會掌握到企業運轉的機密我都要求他們要簽這種所謂的保密的原則來做這個事因為這個如果說某一家敵對的對手知道對方做什麼事這個會影響到競爭力的所以不能夠所有都公開因為這裡面有一些企業營運的機密在裡面"},{"start":8038.953,"end":8044.215,"text":"我們當然不要求公開但是我覺得部長你好像輕忽了這樣的一個現象當有九成的企業他要採取的是自主減量然後你們也選擇退讓你們不要調升碳費的時候你真的覺得你這樣的一個碳費你現在的收價的制度未來跟國際可以接軌嗎你未來有調升的能力嗎還是說遇到企業一反彈的時候事實上環境部就是退讓"},{"start":8067.182,"end":8087.367,"text":"包委員這個不是這樣你不是像你這樣講的深不深是要看我們目前執行的狀況今年5月才會收到第一筆的碳費那你什麼時候再評估要不要調升我們基本上要今年說完之後我們可能明年可以來討論明年後年的這個事情所以你是會每年去檢討的還是你現在政策是傾向就是不會調升"},{"start":8088.087,"end":8112.677,"text":"基本上這個會是因為當時這個決定碳費的時候有一個目標要調整的目標但是我們後來在執行的時候也發現說這樣的透過一個國家訂成一個價錢這是不符合市場機制的所以我們更傾向用這個ETS總量管制的排放交易這樣的做法新制度來的做法能夠把企業真實的碳定價反映到成本上面這是我們期待的做法"},{"start":8113.464,"end":8138.515,"text":"事實上台灣現在的做法因為我們剛上路那我看到的就是恐怕你環境部想要達到的目標很難達成因為你光是一年你的60億就達不到了那未來之前你們還預估說什麼百億我想這個應該是非常難不會委員你不能這樣說因為他企業願意撿的更多他要花更多的錢這是我們的目標不是我們收了很多的錢從企業上面拔毛不是這個樣子的"},{"start":8139.295,"end":8152.724,"text":"好部長這只是你的說辭啦齁那這個我已經看到你今年已經打了25%了啦就是你已經打折了跟你原來預估其實已經不一樣了未來這個其實也是看綠啦齁接下來我要講的是"},{"start":8154.946,"end":8171.437,"text":"接下來我要講的是你的這個一個是這個碳費不如你原來預期的成效第二個是你的碳封存這個也是環境部一個很重要的計畫你們設定了一個非常理想的目標2030年176萬噸2032年400萬噸2035年600萬噸這個目標非常的理想但是呢到目前為止今年"},{"start":8184.685,"end":8195.358,"text":"是零動工沒有任何一個廠就是有順利動工的那請問如果以現在是零的情況底下2030 2032 2035的這個目標可以達成嗎跟委員報告"},{"start":8200.154,"end":8212.105,"text":"其實本來碳補作後封存它就是需要一個比較長的時間去規劃跟建置而且也必須要所以我現在要問你的就是你今年一個廠址都沒有你2030會有176萬噸的這個碳封存"},{"start":8216.188,"end":8234.654,"text":"我們今年已經有核准通過中油公司的在苗栗鐵珍山的一個封存試驗計畫那它的目標是會存30萬噸那當然這是一個試驗計畫那另外這個碳補作後封存其實在2030年還會包括一個碳補作後的利用這個也都會算進來"},{"start":8235.814,"end":8256.073,"text":"所以你要在這邊掛保證2030年可以達到176萬噸的目標這個是旗艦計畫的目標我們會跟各部會共同努力那你現在要不要下修你的目標因為這個是跟著整個國家檢探系目標的這個其中的因為你說苗栗的這一個我們就來看今天忠友是不是也有代表來"},{"start":8260.183,"end":8278.581,"text":"苗栗的這個計畫是忠有負責的你說苗栗這個我們就來看一下就是苗栗現在的這個鐵砧山的計畫事實上苗栗已經2012年就有一個曾經有過一個計畫然後就是沒有辦法施行那現在2023年這個鐵砧山的計畫現在"},{"start":8284.326,"end":8297.325,"text":"中東景縣長呼籲中央為取得地方信任不得動工我請問一下這一個場址會動工嗎進度如何預計什麼時候完成"},{"start":8301.221,"end":8312.946,"text":"這個場址他目前封存的設施都已經做好了但是我們在經審查核准的時候也有很多的要求他必須要做各項的環境監測然後其實中油公司他有架設這個即時監測的這些資訊會跟當地居民來溝通那我們也要求中油公司在真正灌注之前還會再跟地方來辦理說明會"},{"start":8323.051,"end":8329.327,"text":"所以我們在審查當天其實苗栗縣政府也沒有就是說同意我們在整個這個審查的這些意見"},{"start":8331.883,"end":8360.481,"text":"所以這個場址什麼時候就是可以開始運作已經沒有已經排除了地方的聲音了嗎當然這個都是要持續資訊公開透明而且要跟居民做溝通那因為他現在還有包括其他相關的法規的這些準備工作要去進行所以詳細的這個確定的時程還是要中油公司來做說明那中油公司要不要回答這個場址你預計什麼時候運作會不會胎死腹中又沒有辦法運作"},{"start":8361.63,"end":8374.712,"text":"澳委員這個依照計畫的部分是現在在走這個法規的一些行程如果法規的流程走完了才可以實質凍控但是剛剛環境部說明的部分硬體設備已經完成了"},{"start":8375.12,"end":8402.012,"text":"那你們原來的目標預計什麼時候完成可以實質的進行碳封存原來的目標因為有法規的這個是不是符合法規以及環評的問題所以你們沒有目標原來設定應該是在去年或是今年應該有一個硬體設備完成這個是OK的但是運作的部分取決於法規是不是許可"},{"start":8403.217,"end":8426.41,"text":"好 這個就是我要講的到目前為止我們看到這個碳封存的計畫目標寫得非常的漂亮但是現在連這個官員的回答都不敢明確的回覆這樣子的一個是不是可以達到跟地方政府的溝通而且可以符合法規而且可以正式上路在這樣的情況底下我們設定的目標那根本就不可能達成"},{"start":8429.492,"end":8448.608,"text":"連一場到現在都沒有真正的完成我要提醒環境部的是減碳其實是重中之重當我們提到氣候變遷提到很多問題國際上唯一的目標就是要減碳那無論是我剛剛提到的碳費你的整個徵收你現在已經低於你原來的目標還有你"},{"start":8450.189,"end":8468.938,"text":"念茲在茲的碳封存你連封存廠現在的第一廠都沒有辦法完全的確定下來這個都是增加了很多這個不確定性因素而你原來的設定目標可能會往下降所以我要提醒環境部是所有計畫訂定不能只是"},{"start":8469.758,"end":8494.338,"text":"看起來很美好但是你是要實質去做的當你發現實質有些困難的時候就要回過頭來修正目標而且要不斷的去檢討怎麼樣才是最有效的措施你需要透過強力的執行就像今天部長你說現在是各部會各行其事未來還要有一個設立一個中心來做跨部會但這些都不能只是紙上談兵啊"},{"start":8495.399,"end":8519.826,"text":"這些真的要認真去推動各部會也有配合的責任但是從環保署到環境部我覺得環境部在減碳這件事情上面你們責無旁貸你們就是主管機關你們要去要求其他單位無論怎樣就是要配合環境部相關的政策這樣子才是而不是遇到壓力的時候這個經濟部最大然後就退讓然後就回來就是在做修正"},{"start":8520.246,"end":8530.274,"text":"我希望環境部要有這樣的決心我們的減碳才會達到實質的成效謝謝好謝謝王玉敏委員發言接下來請蘇清泉委員發言好謝謝主席那我請部長跟水利署有請彭部長水利署"},{"start":8548.717,"end":8558.801,"text":"第一個水質改善的問題那你現在今年的水質改善你預算編0.83億這你救?你知不知道?我知道我知道"},{"start":8582.158,"end":8608.872,"text":"以東港溪為例,每天站2、3人一天抽水、抽氣、河湧、做工藥用還是民生用,不知道啦,都有啦,一天20萬噸那整個東港溪,它的長度差不多80幾公里沿途有DH3,這樣幾堆"},{"start":8611.516,"end":8618.473,"text":"你都沒有你的水質改善的KPS是什麼是怎麼弄還是幫你弄啊"},{"start":8620.422,"end":8643.044,"text":"委員報告我們水質改善的重點是在嚴重污染策戰的解嚴也就是說從嚴重污染策戰能夠降低到輕度中度污染策戰那過去呢我們已經從九十一年整治一年開始有六十六個嚴重污染策戰那現在已經降低到去年的最新資料已經降低到了兩站那我想屏東一直以來是我們的一個重點所以我們接下來"},{"start":8643.664,"end":8645.445,"text":"我看115到118年的治水計畫當中你這個水質改善也占不到3%"},{"start":8666.877,"end":8692.824,"text":"不對 差不多3%那一直強調就是水利署的水利工程提防加高啦 抽水站啦那也沒有去要改善水質這一塊那如果這樣的話這個河川子整治只是為了防洪啦 這一些那你譬如說東港溪作為備用水源這個實質的效率是不是要放棄掉"},{"start":8693.8,"end":8706.093,"text":"那因為你當天站 現在的水質是比較好啊那你把土地給人家口口聲聲說我們要做工業用水李鳳山水庫那到底有沒有挪到"},{"start":8707.216,"end":8734.848,"text":"民生用水去 我在想有可能會mix在一起所以第一個問題就是水質改善的經費要寬裂這樣太少了你全國那麼多主要核酸好像二十幾條你用水質改善再減一個八千幾萬我沒有辦法接受包委員大概一年五億多五億多因為我們還領外的"},{"start":8738.366,"end":8764.465,"text":"5億4千多萬那個是另外的品項那個 耿委員報告那個在水利署跟我們環境部經濟部 環境部還有農業部那基本上在行政院有政委在協調成立一個水及流域的永續推動的一個行動計畫那這個計畫向下其實我們也有在針對東港溪的一個特性最水質的一個影響最重要的是畜牧業的一個污染的影響"},{"start":8765.305,"end":8793.524,"text":"那所以畜牧業的一個處理呢其實我們也有報一個計畫給國安院裡面在這個行動計畫向下呢我們會爭取對於這個畜牧業的一個改善那最重要就放在他的這一個源頭的一個減量甚至可以集中處理之後呢做我們講的這個生殖能的一個早期中心然後呢他的一個早渣早育呢你們譬如說農業部跟你們是有在跨部會有在合作吧有嗎還是各做各的"},{"start":8795.308,"end":8810.229,"text":"包委員那個我說明一下齁你剛剛說的是八千多萬齁那個是我們本部的啦齁那因為因為財化法之後我們有二十億大概切到一般性的補助款那裡面呢大概有四億一千七百多萬所以加起來大概五億多啦我們也是有啦"},{"start":8811.03,"end":8828.099,"text":"阿只不過就是採訪法過後就是說因為去年委員給我好好念就是說我們的預算去年我們本部往下掉今年整體增加了7%啦我們有努力啦還不夠啦對阿環境部的預算太少了啦應該要增加大幅寬裂啦好第二個問題"},{"start":8829.5,"end":8852.891,"text":"我們到處都在蓋抽水站、堤防加高,像我們鋼塞,鋼塞的抽水站,一邊是在抽出來的水,另外一邊鋼塞的整個村都很假的,所以前兩天上午他們住的就是鋼塞村。那在做抽水站,在鋼塞村那裡,就在抽過的鐙鐺車,那在抽水站,"},{"start":8856.434,"end":8873.598,"text":"連久失修,每次做大水,每次都要一大堆的抽水機在那邊擺在大馬路旁邊,每一次都要去關心那這個抽水站本身維護費等等,是蠻龐大的水利署現在是怎樣處理?"},{"start":8878.001,"end":8899.481,"text":"因為那是屬於地方管的抽水站就是區域牌的抽水站都是縣政府管的那我們對於縣政府的這個抽水站他們維護的費用是他們自己要處理的但是他如果抽水站有需要更新改善我們就有請他們列到我們的整個計畫就是縣市管河川的那個計畫再來協助他們那每年我們也都請檢查"},{"start":8900.672,"end":8919.205,"text":"建制是你們建制沒有 建制就是說以前建制就是我們會補助他們做但是它屬於經常性維護的話事實上是由縣政府再來處理也就是說他們由他們自己的預算來處理如果說將來整個抽水站因為年久失修需要更新改善的話那他可以報計畫給我們我們會再來協助好的 現在都"},{"start":8922.447,"end":8931.677,"text":"小企業到外流就做一個志皇祠就做一個廚師站廚師站一四個都要做廚師站有一點像歐洲的荷蘭"},{"start":8933.223,"end":8951.241,"text":"到處都是等等等DAM那這樣是釜底抽薪的方法嗎這第一個第二個到處都是等都是站然後抽然後這個東西要有專人管理還有那些機械的東西顧攏會派"},{"start":8953.403,"end":8966.139,"text":"維修有沒有到位洪水來 大水要來 颱風要來到底有沒有辦法發揮功能這個是我們比較關心的環境部裡要扮演什麼角色"},{"start":8966.987,"end":8987.364,"text":"我們未來如果說調試的部分他們現在是由水利署主責水及流域的計畫是他們主責我們跟他們在他們大的計畫裡面那我覺得未來他們算是氣候變遷調試的一環那我們會跟他們協助說未來像委員提到的整體的規劃是不是要更好一點點那是不是請副署長回答那我想整個"},{"start":8988.444,"end":9009.812,"text":"屏東因為他有比較地勢比較低也就是說他的地都可能比海平面還低了那變成說水下來了以後那他變成要排出來就變成要靠做機械抽排那另外一個就是不然就是做自容池來或是做淨流分擔儲留管制的方式來把水暫存在土地上那我想水屬對於這個地挖地區的一個"},{"start":9011.833,"end":9038.842,"text":"滯水的一些治理的方式也都有在調整那我們目前大概都會推在地滯洪跟一個淨油分擔或是出流管制來搭配來做那我想做抽水站都是最後所不得不也是比較快的方式沒有錯但是後續我們也會協助縣政府來就整個抽水站的部分怎麼讓它更完備因為每年我們大概都有在協助縣政府在檢查他們的抽水站是不是有完整那對於淹水改善就會有幫助"},{"start":9039.082,"end":9059.235,"text":"所以你這個職責是下放給縣市政府自己平常就要維修自己要keep function就對了第一個那是他們自己主管的當然就是依照地方制度就是他們自己要來維修來維護好再來第三個問題保定多元垃圾處理你編的5億4990萬"},{"start":9064.69,"end":9084.188,"text":"屏東就掩埋場就有三個嘛,東港、東寮到遠村那我們的葫蘆就一個是崁頂嘛那這樣的話這三個掩埋場到底現在的功能好像越搞越糟糕然後你的KPI是怎麼樣?署長"},{"start":9087.984,"end":9108.917,"text":"報告委員 現在它的掩埋廠還是有一些空間當然它的焚化廠目前運作也慢慢有效率有提高整個KPI我們還是希望它對於整個自己屏東地區的垃圾處理能夠自主大概是這樣子"},{"start":9113.777,"end":9131.576,"text":"因為我們最近有補助他們有一個轉運的東西因為上次有颱風有毀壞我們有一些補助那也希望說因為目前其實屏東他在這個裸露的垃圾處理還蠻有成效的但是這個未來也蠻想活化如何處理我們會來再大力的加強協助"},{"start":9133.177,"end":9151.671,"text":"我稍微再補充一下感謝委員那個屏東最主要可能就是小琉球地區的垃圾轉運那委員很關心那這個部分在經費上面委員的支持我們也有籌到經費給予支持以上好謝謝那再來"},{"start":9153.191,"end":9162.325,"text":"那個經濟部搞了10幾億還是1億多的那個塑膠袋要出來市面上啊你們這邊是在減塑"},{"start":9168.618,"end":9195.078,"text":"柏霖 你在剪塑膠袋 他在做塑膠袋只有一個塑膠袋打個仗塑膠袋都扯不清我們這邊還是減塑啦就是說我們現在大概已經有超過70幾家的企業這個願意大型的企業都是提供塑膠袋然後我們正在媒合那現在這個已經越來越多了我據我所知已經有幾十萬個塑膠袋不是"},{"start":9195.678,"end":9214.111,"text":"我們不是塑膠袋是環保袋紙袋已經可以供市場上運用我們希望把它變成一個長期的措施啦那經濟部呢他們做那個塑膠袋用因為增產儀器因為我們的那種手提式塑膠袋台灣已經不做了都是進口來的那當然例如說中國他已經這個"},{"start":9216.132,"end":9244.797,"text":"自己都不夠了所以它馬上就會斷掉我們這邊的量所以我們只好經濟部請這個中油趕快來台塑趕快來做這些事情那我們還是覺得趁這個機會好好推減塑啦阿目前這個經濟部這一次提供的好幾億個這個塑料袋是那種用disposable的還是就是所謂的一公斤是手提式的就是我們去市場拿拿那個用好就丟掉還是還是環保袋其實不是環保袋就是一次性的啦"},{"start":9245.317,"end":9273.307,"text":"那當然一次性的那個也可以用很多次啦所以我們是希望說趁這個機會因為的確因為有一個因為台灣有時候民眾是很敏感的一覺得說可能會恐慌每個人都去買結果每個人去買就把這個存量全部都吃光光所以現在的確我們也發現說很多人都反映塑膠袋漲得很嚴重啦所以我相信經濟部是在穩定的穩定這個物價穩定大家不要不方便所以經濟部的觀念就是讓你不要叫"},{"start":9274.207,"end":9301.749,"text":"就趕快增加增產然後迎合市面上的需要是那你們的立場是我們是希望減碩因為未來我相信這個塑膠工業未來會推動的話其實這個會的確會有更強大的法律會要求每一個國家好還有問題啊但是時間到了主席站起來了再接著問謝謝謝謝蘇星群委員發言接下來請黃秀芳委員發言"},{"start":9310.367,"end":9312.868,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請部長有請彭部長黃委員好部長好 部長我今天想要就我們的這個廚餘的部分就是請教我們部長那我們每一天生產的這個廚餘差不多2115公噸那其中有四分之一就是來自於學校的這個營養午餐那我想請教就是說"},{"start":9336.561,"end":9363.576,"text":"我看到你們二月份的時候也有特別提到就是說希望就是這個廚餘能夠減量嘛那最主要可能就是要從源頭控管我想請教部長就是說其實學校的這個營養午餐不只是這個可能就是一些邊角料啊或者是菜葉啊或者是我們中餐吃的學生吃完之後剩餘的這些"},{"start":9364.576,"end":9389.547,"text":"這些廚餘那這樣子看到這樣每日生產這麼多的這個廚餘確實我會覺得說這個一方面覺得有點浪費那另外一方面覺得說這個學校的這個營養午餐可能不好吃不然怎麼會有剩這麼多的廚餘我想請教部長你有跟教育部針對這個廚餘的部分有做過討論嗎"},{"start":9391.508,"end":9419.643,"text":"這個部分從發生豬瘟一開始的時候我就跟教育部提醒就是說這個東西一定要好好處理要從源頭減量來做那甚至我也到荷蘭去想要引進這個新的方法Fusion的方法等於是從食物的源頭開始去做減量那當然教育部也都一直積極配合要去宣導要去做不過因為最近發生一件就是各個縣市都是爭相喊說營養午餐免費那營養午餐免費的話那就是各縣市政府"},{"start":9420.043,"end":9441.545,"text":"自己要去負擔廚餘的費用所以這個變成說這個情勢這個局勢就變成是地方政府他要去好好處理廚餘的事因為以後他自己地方政府就要編廚餘的經費在裡面我是覺得是說地方政府會願意去編營養午餐免費但是絕對讓大家不知道的去處理廚餘是要很高的費用所以我們也擔心這個問題"},{"start":9442.566,"end":9447.731,"text":"後面廚餘的這個費用其實應該是蠻高的啦很高我舉一個例子就是說我們彰化縣的這個免費的這個營養午餐可能就是縣府這邊編預算嘛那如果說給外包的這個就是外包餐盒的這一種國小一餐是50塊那國中是一餐是55塊"},{"start":9465.288,"end":9473.218,"text":"那如果是自己有廚房的話可能就更便宜啦那我們看到就是說每日生產的這些廚餘那這些外包的這個餐盒這些廠商他還要去處理這些廚餘以前可能還有把這些廚餘交給"},{"start":9483.128,"end":9491.497,"text":"這個去餵豬所以會有人進來收到學校來收這些廚餘所以對這些這個廠商來講其實不是一個負擔那現在這個廚餘不能養豬之後那確實會造成這些廠商他可能從這個營養午餐的這個費用50塊這個一餐50塊可能搞不好有5塊錢就是要來處理廚餘"},{"start":9506.972,"end":9520.622,"text":"所以我希望就是說部長針對這一部分這個是一個很嚴重的問題那我希望就是說部長跟教育部這邊真的要好好的去思考一下你剛剛講的從源頭去控管"},{"start":9522.155,"end":9545.771,"text":"圓頭控管那我覺得除了你跟教育部之外那我覺得跟這個衛福部這邊也有很大的也要去考慮就是說每一天這個我們的孩子們吃的這些營養午餐那除了營養之外也要美味也要可口美味要不然其實他會覺得不好吃不好吃就不想吃就丟掉了然後就倒掉了所以我覺得應該是要三方就是這個衛福部"},{"start":9548.232,"end":9570.38,"text":"然後我們環境部然後教育部大家去共同討論一方面兼顧孩子的這個營養好熱量營養兼顧之後那也要好吃那後續的這個各縣市在推動的這些營養午餐免費其實我覺得這個這個未來會成為一個很大的一個問題因為這些這些廠商他為了可能因為"},{"start":9571.56,"end":9584.036,"text":"價格就是這樣子然後要漲也不太可能所以他可能就從這個孩子們每天中午吃的這些食材可能這個食材可能會變得比較不好我覺得這個可能未來會有這樣的一個問題謝謝委員長事實上我們也發現這個問題我們跟"},{"start":9588.942,"end":9603.019,"text":"教育部是在規則規定上面會做好但是現在隨著這個所有的這個團善營養午餐全部變的地方政府在出錢那他們是有比較多的統籌分配管這個來來做這個事可是他沒有編這個廚餘的費用"},{"start":9604.321,"end":9625.469,"text":"所以這個是現在我們覺得因為過去教育部可以強力的介入現在變成地方出這個錢那教育部的力道也明顯變少了所以我們的確現在跟教育部正在討論這個問題怎麼解決因為這個似乎以後都是地方政府的責任那我們如何來幫忙他現在我們的著力點的確空間比較少那我們正在想辦法"},{"start":9626.229,"end":9644.686,"text":"好那如果廚餘從這個變成這個從這些包商他們自己要去處理的話這個團散業者他們要自己處理他就會從這個營養午餐的食材可能就會縮水或者是品質就不是那麼好所以現在有很多他們發現說像加工的食品越來越多是"},{"start":9645.046,"end":9670.634,"text":"加工的食品越來越多啊這個都不是我們樂見的啦所以我希望說環境部應該就學校的這個廚餘越來越多的這個部分應該要好好的跟各縣市以前可能教育部有辦法去介入那現在如果這個力道沒辦法那麼大的話那應該就是邀請我們各縣市來一起為了我們這個學校的這個廚餘每日生產出來的這些廚餘要怎麼去"},{"start":9671.874,"end":9689.846,"text":"處置我覺得這個應該是拜託我們環境部這邊真的要去好好的去做一個規劃去做一個處理那我昨天也看到就是說那個台中市的這個這個這個廚餘廢水直接倒到這個水溝裡面去"},{"start":9692.55,"end":9718.421,"text":"我就不知道到底是哪裡出問題了就連自己環保局的這個垃圾車它的廚餘水都可以直接把它倒到這個廢水溝倒到這個水溝那其他的呢這是看得到的民眾有檢舉了那看不到的部分呢以前真的我說廚餘這個部分真的是非常嚴重為什麼因為以前我們垃圾車來當然就是說它會分這個廚餘桶"},{"start":9719.882,"end":9745.769,"text":"那你有廚餘的話他就會要求就是要倒到那個廚餘桶嘛那現在你就一整包有的就直接一整包就直接丟到那個垃圾車裡面去啊那這個未來也會影響到我們的那個焚化爐的那個壽命所以我覺得這個廚餘真的真的真的非常的嚴重所以我真的要拜託那個環境部真的針對這部分要好好處理那另外就是說我們也看到最近這幾天在彰化"},{"start":9747.89,"end":9765.008,"text":"的部分有一些是厨余還是有在去養豬那這些厨余很多大部分都來自於台中市台中市的厨余可能餐廳也多所以很大部分的這個厨余這些被抓到的厨余養豬的這個養豬戶"},{"start":9767.43,"end":9792.984,"text":"他還是從台中這邊載過來所以我覺得這部分真的環境部要跟各縣市要好好去溝通廚餘要怎麼去處理如果全部丟到這個焚化爐的話那確實會造成焚化爐這個壽命會減短那如果沒有的話你們到底跟各縣市要怎麼合作好好的把這些廚餘不是亂丟不是亂倒是真的有一個正常的管道去處理"},{"start":9793.664,"end":9812.254,"text":"是跟委員報告目前看起來我們在到今年度結束之後會全部禁止廚餘養豬大概有300噸的處理量的缺口不過到116年年底之前全部都會平衡那目前各縣市積極在做這個廚餘不管是這個"},{"start":9816.897,"end":9834.257,"text":"等於是做肥料化或其他的能源化的設施都不斷在進行那另外委員所關心的台中這件事情我們有跟台中確實了解過是一個個案它的去出沒有問題那可能是個人的操作的問題那這部分我們還在加強各縣市政府的一個要求以上"},{"start":9835.418,"end":9859.029,"text":"所以你覺得說目前處理廚餘的這個量是夠的然後也沒有問題你的意思是這樣子嗎現在就是說還是要進去焚化爐那我們是希望說把這個量一直逐步的往下降因為現在設施不夠所以我們現在每兩個禮拜行政院跟我們都有在開檢討記者會檢討的會議因為這個部分要地方政府要如實的達成"},{"start":9860.029,"end":9887.032,"text":"不然的話就會造成一個區域的問題所以我們希望地方政府我們會嚴格的去鼓勵他們督導他們希望趕快把這個廚藥處理的量能夠趕快提升起來其實這個也會造成偷盜的問題就是說沒有人看到的地方或者深山裡面廚藥就亂倒或者垃圾亂倒這種都會造成這樣的一個狀況所以我希望就是說環境部針對這部分真的要好好再去跟各縣市去溝通一下"},{"start":9887.672,"end":9902.605,"text":"我們都一直這兩個禮拜都會開一次會討論這個事情部長請坐 因為我看到今天農糧署有人過來我是不是可以請農糧署農糧署沒人過來農糧署董珍檢安檢證沒有有"},{"start":9923.052,"end":9941.054,"text":"我希望就是說農糧署在最近因為是我們那個荔枝荔枝這個開花結果的的時候那因為這個氣候的關係所以在中部地區尤其彰化南投這部分"},{"start":9941.554,"end":9966.36,"text":"它的荔枝開花不是那麼的理想那會造成這個結果結果就不好嘛所以在前幾天地方的這個公所縣市政府都有邀請就是到現場去看那也發現說目前的這個結果確實是比往年還差啦所以我希望就是說農糧署針對這一部分"},{"start":9968.28,"end":9984.044,"text":"就是說我們果樹荔枝結果果樹造成它的可能在這個到七八月要採果的時候可能狀況不好的時候我希望就是說你們針對這部分要去密切的去觀察然後去如果真的確實是有這個災害的話應該也要啟動"},{"start":9987.825,"end":10014.899,"text":"這個補助天然災害的補助我們一直都有在包括委員我們一直都有在針對因為都有跟地方的代表或者是地方政府都一直在現看跟農民現看那現在他開花狀況確實如委員所講的他的狀況沒有像往年那麼好但是常常開花都是起起落落但是我們就持續的去關注他然後等到如果說真的結果狀況不好的時候我們會依照規範然後去看他們如果是災害"},{"start":10015.579,"end":10028.911,"text":"就是農業災害的時候 我們就會給予適當的給予用公告補助的所以是差不多幾月 是五月份的時候嗎看他的結果的狀況要等到他真的有結果的狀況才能夠實際的去"},{"start":10033.103,"end":10043.776,"text":"測量跟調查調查完我們一定會照做的我們一直以來都會做這件事我也希望你今天來之後應該也要跟署裡面去做一個回報就是說確實在地方荔枝"},{"start":10047.84,"end":10070.535,"text":"開花的這個狀況不好 因為可能乾旱 可能對二三月那時候乾旱的關係所以造成這個開花不好 那未來結果應該也會不好所以如果說在這個五月份狀況還沒有改善的話 應該在五月份五月初的時候 應該要啟動天然災害的一個補助 好不好 好的 好好謝謝 好謝謝黃秀芳委員發言 接下來請突權紀委員發言"},{"start":10086.143,"end":10086.724,"text":"請問彭部長有請彭部長"},{"start":10091.451,"end":10117.362,"text":"主委好彭副長請問一下我們在2025年我們看了一下全台掩埋場有高達24起的火災那當然從南到北都有了那後來你們也有發新聞稿說我們全台廢棄物戰之日場發生火災的原因是因為秋季異常的暖乾還有我們電池物品未分類的問題"},{"start":10118.743,"end":10127.674,"text":"那我想請問一下我們針對電池的部分我們不是有管理嗎那為什麼還會有沒有分類的在我們的掩埋場裡面"},{"start":10130.096,"end":10148.885,"text":"我們最近其實也想要啟動行動電源行動電源雖然有一些回收機制但是其實還不夠大量所以還是有一些民眾他會直接丟到垃圾堆裡面然後造成這種容易火災的事情發生所以的確雖然有分類的體系但是還是有一些漏網之魚"},{"start":10149.685,"end":10177.119,"text":"所以針對這部分等於說沒有說分類的很徹底對對我們現在應該到了這個10月11月我們現在在規劃一個新的一個機制有機會會把這個量特別是告訴大家因為現在以前是比較少行動電源的問題因為行動電源現在幾乎是人手一台所以基本上事實上手機有鋰電池也會造成這樣的影響所以我們要鼓勵大家手機或是行動電源都要按照我們正當的程序來做回收"},{"start":10177.879,"end":10206.889,"text":"所以你們認為說這個掩埋場起火原因就是有很多原因是因為這個電池位分裂還有這個行動離電池的關係嘛對就是其實這個東西不是只有行電電源還有很多的玩具還有很多日常家電用品裡面都有這種小的電池那個經過這個大自然喔這個不管是刮風這個日曬之後很容易就會火災這個是一個很很主要的一個原因啦好那今天會提這個其實還是有一個問題因為我們知道說"},{"start":10207.629,"end":10226.579,"text":"像大量的廢棄物它混雜會發酵產生熱量那尤其我們像不要說秋冬尤其現在馬上夏天了那個溫度太高也會加速分解也會產生早氣那我們現在要討論的問題就是說我們很快的馬上到今年底"},{"start":10227.119,"end":10244.959,"text":"我們廚餘就要全面回收那這些廚餘我們收到以後去掩埋那這樣子產生早氣那是不是發生火災的風險會更大包委員目前廚餘處理並沒有走到掩埋的程序主要是堆肥或是這個黑水盲"},{"start":10245.379,"end":10273.734,"text":"或是說生殖能或是說最後最後還是有一部分去這個焚化爐啦所以目前我們並沒有鼓勵走到處理對其實我們擔心說其實你電池會沒有分類像有很多的廚餘啊其實民眾也是會裝在垃圾裡面一樣來丟棄在裡面所以我們說你電池你看你都有管理辦法都還要去罰錢都沒有辦法落實那你這個廚餘現在尤其我們是認為喔它處理的量能也會有問題啊"},{"start":10274.714,"end":10283.435,"text":"到時候甚至在掩埋場裡面一定也是很多的屬於混雜在裡面那產生早期那以後發生火災的機會一定是會更大"},{"start":10284.738,"end":10294.843,"text":"那所以我們現在重點我們想了解一下我們針對廚餘據我們了解我們現在廚餘在利用的方式像我們現在事業廚餘裡面我們去了解我們全國大概有25%現在還是用珍珠養豬那家戶廚餘跟事業廚餘大概有23%我們是用"},{"start":10309.909,"end":10330.454,"text":"焚化的方式处理那当然焚化的方式我们查了一下包含新北台北等14个县市都用焚化的方式那我们也知道焚化厨余其实它也是会产生带奥型而且也会影响焚化毒的年限那我们现在"},{"start":10331.775,"end":10351.293,"text":"如果廚餘全面不能養豬禁止養豬之後這廚餘的量勢必會大量增加那我們現在到底處理這個方式有了解我們有更多的多元的處理方式還有我們處理的量能是不是一定會嚴重不足"},{"start":10352.113,"end":10372.824,"text":"報告委員,關於這個大躍興的問題,其實我們很重視,所以我有特別請每個焚化爐都要去針對這個大躍興去做檢測,全部符合規則。那另外一個是我們還包含了幾個相對的高一點點的,我們都有量周介,所以也都符合現在所有的環境的這個大躍興可能排放的一個標準。"},{"start":10373.804,"end":10397.848,"text":"至於說量能現在預計的確還不夠還是需要靠焚化爐但是預計到明年的年底我們就希望說這個量能可以平衡不過我們最大的挑戰是今年的年底到明年1月的時候因為它就不能去未租了所以基本上連事業廚餘都要進到所謂的我們正常的回收的體系那預計這個的問題要到明年年底才有辦法得到一個平衡"},{"start":10398.628,"end":10424.465,"text":"所以我們現在你廚餘回收之後我們現在除了堆肥還有什麼方式能夠處理黑水蒙還有生殖能生殖能所以我們現在好像我們生殖能中心好像桃園有一個生殖能中心它可以處理生廚餘跟熟廚餘那台中外埔綠能生態園區它就只能處理生廚餘也可以的現在也可以的那"},{"start":10426.986,"end":10445.942,"text":"其實據我們了解其實我們也去考察很多像我們上次去觀音我們也了解到其實現在有很多的技術能夠處理廚餘好像我們了解說那次考察有去到觀音那後來我們也去看了一下我們新北其實它有一個"},{"start":10447.425,"end":10464.022,"text":"處理廚餘的技術我們去看一下它是用高壓高溫水解的技術來做廚餘去化這個部分部長知道有這個技術嗎那個對於這個廚餘處理的確是可以的但是它也會產生很多的汙水"},{"start":10465.703,"end":10487.535,"text":"那目前這個是處理廚餘是應該是可以進行的方案不過因為它還是在一個試驗型的一個特性啦那它有經過一些小型的這個運作那當然啦必須說這個東西屬於民間或是說製造廚藝的人他未來這個東西都要有一定的費用就跟垃圾是一樣的在這個市場上一定要有一個商業模式才可以運轉的"},{"start":10488.536,"end":10512.702,"text":"不過據我們這瞭解我們剛剛講這個高溫高壓這水解技術喔它可以全部做處理它固態的廚餘乾燥之後可以做SRF也可以做碳化的肥料然後它液態的它經過過濾濃縮之後可以做液態肥那它唯一有的廢棄物就是油脂那結果它油脂"},{"start":10513.422,"end":10527.463,"text":"可以回收去做這個生態燃料油所以看起來他幾乎可以全面的做處理我想說像這個處理的方式他應該可以做全面處理像後來我們了解他說其實"},{"start":10528.956,"end":10545.1,"text":"他說他一天處理的噸數可以到300噸他目前50噸而已對 可是現在只叫他做50噸所以我們就覺得很奇怪那我們處理那麼多都沒有辦法處理那他說他量能可以處理到那麼大為什麼可以處理到300噸結果我們只"},{"start":10548.602,"end":10562.591,"text":"因為它才剛開始啦那必須任何一個環保設施都必須要讓大家有信心才能繼續做下去所以目前呢我知道新北市環保局也跟他們積極在合作如果它50噸沒有問題的話我相信應該到300噸應該就有機會打開了"},{"start":10565.433,"end":10584.784,"text":"那是因為說現在我們馬上面臨廚餘禁止養豬這個廚餘的量一定會變得更大所以我們希望我們除了黑水盟還有堆肥這些方式應該我們環境部要趕快請環保局去了解我們處理的量能還有有沒有更多"},{"start":10585.985,"end":10602.896,"text":"處理多元的方式看希望能夠找污染更低有更大規模的來處理這部分我們應該趕快來盤點清楚不然馬上我們面臨這個問題會非常非常的嚴重我們每兩個禮拜都在開會都在跟各縣市在檢討這個數字然後他們的進度好 那我簡單再問一下"},{"start":10609.295,"end":10634.927,"text":"我請問一下部長我們現在廢清法針對非灰沒有汙染的部分是不是目前是可以回收再利用的我看很多縣市都有回收再利用對不對對對對對只要檢測沒有汙染就可以做嗎對沒錯對然後去做什麼CLCM這種低強度的混泥土之類的對不對對沒錯那我們馬上是不是也要推動我們資源循環促進法是"},{"start":10635.447,"end":10649.641,"text":"那這個目的當然是讓更我們要找更多的東西希望都能夠這個推動循環經濟把很多能夠回收的盡量讓他去回收然後減少這個垃圾量也能夠減碳這推動這個循環經濟嘛是沒錯那所以"},{"start":10653.297,"end":10675.605,"text":"我也希望像我們針對非灰的部分我們當然可以從嚴認定可是現在很多業者擔心說本來這個可以回收利用的不要到時候變成因為錯誤的方向導致到時候非灰完全不能回收利用那造成更多的"},{"start":10676.385,"end":10693.543,"text":"更多的垃圾更多的明明就可以回收利用的東西變成不能回收利用我們可以從嚴認定而且你像CLSM你如果擔心會有污染問題你可以去不要去買有金屬管的這個工程嘛對不對"},{"start":10696.034,"end":10711.662,"text":"報告委員我們其實對於這個問題因為近期有一些特別的案例所以我們也思考到法規有必須要調整所以我們的概念大概是從嚴管理但是我們也鼓勵再利用學生的話鼓勵再利用我們是完全支持的"},{"start":10712.603,"end":10733.002,"text":"所以我希望我們也不要本末倒置本來廢清法可以針對非灰我們可以從嚴認定從嚴的檢測只要無汙染的一定讓他去做回收再利用你不要變成推動資源循環促進法以後本來可以回收的變成不能去使用"},{"start":10733.983,"end":10754.921,"text":"我是認定我們可以要求從嚴認定嚴格的把關但是不能本末導致明明可以回收利用的變成不能回收利用那你如果擔心說會有污染金屬管的問題你就CLSM不要去買這個有金屬管的工程那你如果說擔心說"},{"start":10756.542,"end":10778.11,"text":"加到混泥土裡面什麼20年30年可能會有污染問題那你去固化一樣也會有這個問題所以這個顧慮是有點多餘的是我們現在在修改然後也會跟業界來討論如何去修改就是管制一定要嚴格但是我們還是鼓勵這個循環再利用的一個方式對所以我希望我們推動這個"},{"start":10779.691,"end":10805.464,"text":"資源循環促進法就是希望能夠有更多可以回收再利用的我們就回收再利用那當然我們認為所有這些把關檢測我們一定是從嚴認定但是可以用的你不能可以回收利用的不能變成說不能回收利用那這樣子我們推動這個循環經濟這就變得沒有道理了那也希望部長能夠聽到更多的聲音好 謝謝"},{"start":10807.885,"end":10818.472,"text":"好 謝謝圖全基委員發言洪義祥委員 洪義祥委員 洪義祥委員不在接著我們請王振旭委員發言好 謝謝主席我們再麻煩彭部長"},{"start":10834.529,"end":10852.862,"text":"文偉好文副長好今天就針對你的專案報告相關的這個調適的現況還有這個目標接軌的推動情形來跟你討價那早上你的專報真的做得非常完整謝謝非常謝謝從裡面學到很多的東西不過我想我們今天在談的這個"},{"start":10854.443,"end":10878.77,"text":"不是在談原則不只是談原則更希望這個執行力能夠來落實所以要聚焦兩件事情第一個就是台灣永續表現的結構性而落差第二部分就是有關於這個醫療體系在減貸跟廢棄物上面的政策缺位這兩個部分希望跟部長這邊來討論一下那永續貿易指數我相信部長應該是比我更清楚"},{"start":10879.27,"end":10899.315,"text":"這個Sustainable Trade Index在2025年的時候呢我們全台灣的排名是第10名看起來成績還算是讓大家可以接受那其實這是一個熱商管理學院瑞士跟韓理事基金會共同發布了一個研究在國際間有一定的這個參考的"},{"start":10900.755,"end":10917.016,"text":"一個價值的評比工具這個評比主要是在針對各經濟體在經濟社會環境三維度的一個永續貿易的表現那其實也是我們很重視的一個重要的參考指標在2023年的時候我們是第10名"},{"start":10917.737,"end":10936.999,"text":"那2024年我們是第9名那2025年會回到第10名就是好像他在進步的部分沒有非常的讓我們覺得很明顯那當然這個指數的表現不是環境部單一部會可以能夠來解決的會涉及到跨部會的這個協力的表現"},{"start":10939.481,"end":10962.675,"text":"想要請教部長就是這個指標沒有明顯的進展不知道部長怎麼看這樣的意涵包委員我們那個資源循環推動法其實就要把這個概念放進去我相信我們那個法案如果在大院如果通過的話其實對我們整個循環這個永續的這種供應鏈會更完整那過去其實"},{"start":10963.135,"end":10977.136,"text":"我必須說雖然我們很努力但是法規、政策、預算其實或是整個人力的投入都可能還不夠所以我們現在希望說未來這個部分也謝謝委員給我們這樣的數據我們希望未來可以往上走"},{"start":10979.882,"end":11002.029,"text":"好謝謝謝謝部長對他們的這個了解跟掌握未來可以再進步的部分其實剛剛講的是全指標嘛那再過來針對於環境部在掌管的環境指數方面我們的評比是第12名這個第12名其實跟之前相比真的是好很多在2023年的時候我們是第27名"},{"start":11003.209,"end":11019.994,"text":"那2024年那個時候部長剛上任那個時候已經進步到第16名那現在去年就更進步到12名表示說我們這方面的這個努力環境部的確可以看到很亮眼的成績可是我們看到比較擔心的就是"},{"start":11020.894,"end":11043.132,"text":"有幾個指標其實還是相對落後包括我們森林砍伐是第29位人均二氧化碳的排放第25位再生能源的再利用等等是27位其中還有兩個部分叫做廢水處理率跟生態足跡那時候甚至是沒有提供資訊給他們做排名的參考所以"},{"start":11044.013,"end":11070.063,"text":"部長怎麼看這樣的表現就是在這方面的結構上跟您剛剛所提到的進步的方向有沒有一致好 謝謝委員那個森林砍伐其實過去不是環境部主導的但是現在因為總統要求環境部要來整合都市林的部分我希望我們開始推動都市林要這個樹要倍增的這個方案可以把這個名次我們就會往上提升"},{"start":11070.703,"end":11095.076,"text":"那人均的二氧化碳排放量呢我們是持續的降但是必須說這個因為整個我們的經濟發展實在太好了所以基本上我們的減碳的確都在那個每年2到3%我們今年開始的壓力才大我們減碳是要減到4到5%左右所以這個我們會努力啦那再生能源呢就是屬於經濟部他們要做的工作其實現在的確會遇到一些波動"},{"start":11095.816,"end":11109.034,"text":"但是我目前我跟他們討論的時候其實他們還在往這個方向上面例如說再生能源要20 2030年要30這樣的目標在前進我希望說我們如果有這個顯著的目標的話將來這個名次應該都還有機會再提升"},{"start":11111.778,"end":11125.249,"text":"是 那我們當然是希望整體排名的能夠提升的同時其實是在各方面尤其在指標上面也不要有一部分落後太多那個才代表我們是整體的在進步謝謝部長這方面的說明"},{"start":11127.791,"end":11144.48,"text":"那再過來是醫療廢棄物去化跟落實循環的部分如何能夠提升這個再利用率我相信雙法處理以後呢應該會逐步的來改善這種狀況其實不管是一般廢棄物或者是失業廢棄物我們的這個去化量很多已經非常的緊繃相對來講"},{"start":11146.982,"end":11162.622,"text":"大家要持續更努力那如何能夠提升這個再利用力落實這個循環永續尤其在醫療廢棄物的部分因為我本身是出自這個醫療單位所以會相對比較關心那我們知道其實整體來講這個醫療廢棄物它的占比"},{"start":11165.405,"end":11179.721,"text":"其實並不多只佔0.63%可是如果說我們要希望能夠這個資源循環零廢棄這樣的政策目標不應該有任何一個部門要被忽略如果被忽略掉的話就沒有辦法"},{"start":11180.322,"end":11196.54,"text":"能夠真正的達標那我們也知道這個醫療廢棄物其實有他在在利用上的一些困境包括說有感染的風險啊增加了危險等等那處理的費用其實也是相對可能比其他的部門還要高一些"},{"start":11197.02,"end":11221.534,"text":"可是不管怎麼樣還是環境部基本上是一個整土廢棄物的這個主管機關所以還是得擔負起這個體制制度的設計跟這個政策引導的責任所以除了衛福部自己努力以外所以部長有三點要請教就是對於這個醫療廢棄物持續上升會越來越多的趨勢環境部目前有沒有具體因應的策略"},{"start":11222.274,"end":11239.33,"text":"這個策略應該只是在監測跟管理而已有沒有更好的政策工具第二點就是是否能夠針對醫療廢棄物訂定更明確的處理跟再利用的準則可以讓大家有所根據第三點就是能不能考慮跟衛福部合作"},{"start":11239.87,"end":11266.392,"text":"先有一些示範性的示範計畫未來大家有一個標竿學習的機會那這個示範計畫可能要選定幾家醫院那真的這三點部長有沒有什麼樣的想法好 謝謝王委員因為我禮拜天的時候有遇到這個劉玉平 劉師長他是主管這個醫療廢棄物的我們有交換一下意見那我是不是請我們副署長能夠來回答這個事情未來法的過後會我們一起來主導好 有請副署長"},{"start":11267.693,"end":11287.674,"text":"檢要報告委員,我們幾個做法,我們其實今年已經跟醫事室開始合作那委員所提到的減費,其實就是第一個我們跟醫事室要針對幾個項目像是塑膠或常用的用品我們不只是做一個平常的在利用而已,我們希望做高質化的循環,但是對於醫療院所的人員"},{"start":11288.775,"end":11316.105,"text":"他可能要知道更多的做法心裡要有更大的信任感所以這個東西我們要合作訂出一個指引也就是委員剛才垂詢的部分要讓大家更知道第二個就是說像有一些像是在利用的部分其實現在的在利用已經是60%了那我們這個部分其實也一直持續的在跟醫術師跟醫療院所看能不能滅菌消毒等等或是少用這個都會持續的在努力現在滅菌已經達到26%"},{"start":11317.666,"end":11343.868,"text":"是好看起來兩個部會其實也都有在積極的處理這個議題不過我們在兩年前其實那個時候有請教過貴部就是有關於這個輔導醫療機構的執行內容不知道到目前為止有沒有比較好的執行方式或者是有沒有示範的案例可以給我們做參考報告委員我們從這兩年已經跟"},{"start":11347.126,"end":11362.993,"text":"醫療部分是衛福部,其實部裡面不只是循環署、空品、水溫防治等等我們都有一個綠色醫療的推動方案,那我們有訂出不同類型的KPM不好意思因為我今天那個數據"},{"start":11364.173,"end":11382.609,"text":"沒有準備在身上 這個是不是我們另外再跟我們報告好 那就麻煩部里是不是提供這個可以讓我們看到的成果報告沒問題是 OK最後一個部分就是有關的醫療機構減碳的政策其實我們在2027年希望能夠完異整體的總量的這個"},{"start":11383.51,"end":11396.745,"text":"管制碳交易的部分2028年就要開始實施那現在醫療機構相信也是一個重要的部分雖然它整體的排放量佔比只有0.9%即使把這個醫療供應鏈相關的合併計算是4.4%其實這個佔比也在逐漸的上升當中"},{"start":11403.433,"end":11417.84,"text":"所以綠色醫療跨部會的政策環境部目前的政策方向有沒有已經確定下來的還有環境部可能會協助醫院來做這個節能的具體方案嗎這個部分請教部長謝謝委員其實目前的我們認為醫院"},{"start":11418.66,"end":11445.99,"text":"醫院所要做的是節能節能就可以幫醫院減少開支醫院財務負擔不會那麼重所以目前長庚醫院做得最好目前慈濟醫院他現在經過我們協助輔導之下又給他們補助一些經費然後他們自己很努力也加入了ASCO的方案所以長庚集團慈濟整個醫療體系會是下一個其他的我們都有在參與但是很多的醫院或許"},{"start":11446.55,"end":11467.645,"text":"他的這個有別的考慮啦真的比較慢那我們會再努力一下跟每個醫院齁不過因為很多的醫院我們是跟他們一直提醒要減碳要知道自己的用電從ESCO去做是最好的不見得要馬上去算那個碳他只要把這個用電截下來他的碳就跟著減了所以這個部分我們會再積極跟他們的永續長一起來這個努力"},{"start":11469.346,"end":11496.065,"text":"所以是有具體方案在執行有 已經都有在做但是有時候到最後一日就是這個醫院願不願意真的跳下去做S口有時候有些醫院真的不大願意好 那如果具體方案的話也可以給我們一個書面報告好不好一個月裡面這邊經濟部能源署好像陳副署長也在現場剛剛部長有提到這個節能的部分非常重要其實醫學中心真的是他為了要讓整體的環境"},{"start":11496.545,"end":11511.112,"text":"尤其這個照顧可以更為完整所以這個用電真的是無法真的做有效的節能不過醫學中心裡面這個所有的能源用電電力佔了79%那這個電力裡面耗電當中空調又佔了15%那照明佔了30%所以如何能夠讓這個"},{"start":11523.178,"end":11548.632,"text":"節能的管理重點發揮作用這個就必須要相關的部會一起共同來努力那這個部分呢我們如何能夠透過經濟部能源署來協助做一個節能的一些相關的處理模式那我們也了解這個經濟部其實是有一些補助的方案那這個補助裡面最近四年發現說補助三四二次的這個"},{"start":11549.973,"end":11567.164,"text":"醫院裡面呢公立的占了一半左右表示說公視率其實都有這個需求不過好像整個量並不是那麼足夠那114年度84件案裡面呢有19件是屬於醫院的部門那其中公立醫院是有6件所以"},{"start":11568.024,"end":11583.596,"text":"能不能夠再麻煩請經濟部在這邊多努力包括未來經濟部跟環境部還有衛護部能不能夠針對醫療機構提出一個專案式的方式就是不是跟其他的這些部門做處理而是針對這個醫療部門做單獨的處理不在這邊"},{"start":11585.998,"end":11603.456,"text":"OK 跟委員好 跟委員間斷來說明經濟部目前大概有兩個專案在進行從111年到今年的部分大概已經有補助了78家的一個醫院醫療院所來做這方面的節能每年大概可以節省了大概0.9億度的部分"},{"start":11603.996,"end":11626.948,"text":"那剛剛委員推詢就是說能不能跟其他部會有個專案的部分來跟醫療院所來做進一步的節能合作的部分那這部分我們跟衛福部相關的部會來一起合作來達到節能的效果好謝謝那我們期待這個會很快有成果給我們做一個參考好謝謝謝謝王振興委員發言接下來請張阿玲委員發言"},{"start":11639.755,"end":11641.418,"text":"謝謝主席 我們有請部長有請馮部長美洲委員好"},{"start":11646.326,"end":11671.351,"text":"部長好我想今天主要是要來跟部長來追一下我們的進度但是我的簡報好像還沒有出來我今天早上跟我們的民間團體還有我們的兒少團體一起開了一個記者會就是在關注我們的高溫自理政策裡面到底有沒有確實的把兒少放進去因為我想在去年的時候我也就已經提出了質詢就是針對我們的兒少的熱傷害其實這個"},{"start":11674.832,"end":11700.932,"text":"我們的每一年的人數其實都是在增加的今天國建署也有來我想這都是非常明確的一個狀態那我們是希望說可以有個明確的年齡別年齡別的風險分級以及行動建議然後還有就是說針對我們的遮蔭地表有一個一致的標準來保護我們的兒少在戶外活動的時候免於熱傷害"},{"start":11702.173,"end":11715.447,"text":"的一個風險但是呢當時環境部也有回覆我說會參照這個全球調適的目標的指標架構來跨部會研議本土化調適的指標然後評估納入下一期的這個"},{"start":11717.669,"end":11739.237,"text":"國家氣候變遷調適行動計畫也提到說是在115年上半年跨部會研議兒少高溫調適指引因應作為指引那也有成立這個抗高溫調適對策聯盟這是目前我們所知道的進度那我想知道就是說我們目前到底這個進度的狀態是怎麼樣是還在研議中嗎大概什麼時候會出來我們署長"},{"start":11740.834,"end":11766.428,"text":"是跟委員報告現在確實還在研議當中那我們在3月的時候是有跟各部會來討論這個下一期調適計畫然後必須要對標這個全球調適指標然後跟這個高溫的這個議題那現在各部會在研議所以我們是持續包括像下個禮拜我們還會再跟各部會來把這些目前的進度做一些彙整跟更新"},{"start":11767.108,"end":11775.956,"text":"那到底這個因應指引的目標因為原本是說上半年要提出那現在其實已經快要五月了上半年其實也只剩下一個月那目前的進度到底什麼時候會提出來因為我們目前規劃是在六月底的時候每一個調試領域都要有一個初稿出來"},{"start":11783.203,"end":11811.841,"text":"那現在就是因為大家在編轉這個調適領域的行動方案的時候我們希望說把高溫這個尤其是大各界很關心的跟兒少的這個相關的議題都能夠放進去但是一定要有一個檢核表跟一個目標的設定所以現在都正在討論的是這個部分那我想問一下就是說現在在討論因為現在你可以看到螢幕上面就是說美國澳洲日本其實都有針對於不同的年紀上面有一個分級所以你們的目標是往這個方向在前進嗎"},{"start":11813.042,"end":11829.837,"text":"其實跟委員報告第一個是您關心的比如說像公園這個小朋友或是學校裡面很多的器具都很燙很燙的那個東西其實未來我們期待是要有一個指引說必須要有什麼樣的遮蔭的一個方案近期總統府氣候變遷對策委員會要求我們要來植樹種樹的規劃裡面也把校園的林木"},{"start":11834.922,"end":11844.144,"text":"還有這個小朋友從學校出來到附近住家附近的這個訴因都要顯著的增加其實就是呼應委員的這樣的一個做法"},{"start":11844.721,"end":11868.328,"text":"好但是其實我覺得可能除了這些地方之外還有就是遊戲場跟運動場因為這幾天在這個我先問一下好了部長我不知道你知不知道大英森林公園很多數對不對是所以想當然了這邊一定是很像對都市來說它又做到一個調節的作用比較涼爽但是你知道大英森林公園裡面最熱的地方在哪裡嗎那個沙灘中間小朋友遊戲區在整個遊戲區"},{"start":11869.768,"end":11890.891,"text":"是全部最高溫的地方而且這個溫度並沒有低於市區的平均溫度所以等於是說我如果我們沒有去考量到兒童遊戲的這個需要的空間也要去做足夠的遮蔭或者是降溫的話那這個地方其實小朋友會待很久那他就有可能造成他熱傷害的風險好那我想問一下就是說"},{"start":11891.531,"end":11906.147,"text":"因為其實我們這幾天全中獄也正在舉辦已經有非常多的教練跟家長也跟我反映我們的場地上面毫無遮蔭等於是說賽事在進行的時候選手在等待的時候教練在等待的時候大家都賽傷了"},{"start":11908.167,"end":11919.317,"text":"對 那所以這個運動場館應該都要全面的來做有相關的指引才對因為這個不然就只有在通道上面做降溫可是事實上大家會實際停留的特別是額上會實際停留的這個長時間的場館都沒有相關的遮影"},{"start":11924.341,"end":11945.504,"text":"所以這個部分預計也是會做一些調整嘛對不對針對遮蔭的部分那這個部分的話進度呢因為目前是之前是回復說會在下一期的國家調適行動方案那這個也是同一個時間表嗎對現在就是六月底我們希望有一個初稿出來所以這同一個時間表就對了對會提出來跟大家來做這個座談"},{"start":11946.65,"end":11972.894,"text":"好那我希望就是說因為我們在遮蔭的上面要包含到他的遮蔭率材料規範地表溫度上限等等讓地方可以更清楚的有一個依據可以依循可以嗎可以這個就公園綠地法這個我們目前的確有朝這方向來規劃OK好那我們就6月份再來做一下進度謝謝謝謝張雅琳委員發言接下來請盧憲一召委發言"},{"start":11980.297,"end":12007.179,"text":"謝謝主席有請彭部長有請彭部長陸委員好部長好那針對現在我們2016年到2019年第四期的國家氣候變遷調適行動計畫我想說我們先檢視一下上一期的一個計畫的內容是不是確實有落實我們現在國際的一個方向大家都知道其實做調適是最困難的工作那有七大領域然後十大執行目標"},{"start":12009.127,"end":12030.24,"text":"我只希望能夠看到儲平生計任性文化遺產知識系統脆弱群體保護能不能列入這裡面的那個所謂的指標所以我們在看的時候像我們先檢討目前原住民地區的一些比如說遇到風災或者說遇到氣候變遷的時候目前因應的方法比如說我們目前我們"},{"start":12030.76,"end":12058.063,"text":"看到像最困難的就是屏東縣春月鄉的社文村它只要遇到颱風、豪雨它就必須要遷村所以現在的那個選擇像只有緊急撤離跟圈村這兩個考慮所以我想說是不是有第三條路是不是可以規劃分級避難或者說活化公有建築物作為在地的備援空間或者說建立中繼安置據點作為任性安居的制度路徑"},{"start":12058.783,"end":12085.624,"text":"我覺得這個部分剛好因為我們接下來要談第四期計畫的時候如果把這些剛剛所講的七大領域如果說調適到做為以後做為這樣子一個防災的機制的時候是不是他們有一個有沒有一個契機改變我們目前的一直都是做兩極化的這個所謂的緊急安置或者是說希望他們永久千春的這樣一個選擇希望有第三條路來走"},{"start":12087.004,"end":12105.283,"text":"謝謝委員這個其實調適的觀念就跟防災不一樣所以我也非常贊同委員就是說有沒有新的一個新的做法新的做法就是調適的一個策略那當然這個東西到底要怎麼做因為它是屬於一個長期的那通常第一個資金預算也要到位法國也要到位"},{"start":12105.683,"end":12118.67,"text":"然後民眾的溝通他能不能接受這樣的一個觀念所以這個都需要一個社會溝通所以在我們第四期裡面一定會把這個包含原住民思考的邏輯放進去因為調適裡面很重要的就是原鄉的居民"},{"start":12120.871,"end":12149.807,"text":"然後現在我們都知道說那次的COP30是根據78名的技術專家從1000項裡面的一個所謂的indicator然後一直在簡化簡化或者說看最優先可以做的一直簡化成100項100項以後再選擇到52項所以其實是已經是在在很多的選項裡面做的最好的一些indicator所以希望這個到了台灣以後我們再做一些目標策略的時候不要再"},{"start":12150.427,"end":12171.241,"text":"再次犧牲我們原鄉地區比如說我們在講的所謂的poverty就是貧窮或者說生計的時候結果它沒有相對應的一個所謂的機制結果到最後又被犧牲掉所以我們後來又會看到跟第三期的其他領域的時候會被隱形化也就是說看不到我們全球它需要一個調適目標結果"},{"start":12173.422,"end":12195.145,"text":"我們有看到儲平生計文化遺產之事可是到了第四期規劃因為它的困難度太高了它又被犧牲所以我希望有三個建議給衛福部參考就是明確來劃分主責機關告訴國人氣候邊線下的民眾生計保障跟在地文化保護到底要由誰來主責第二個就是國際指標對照的時候我們應該"},{"start":12196.686,"end":12219.507,"text":"應該不是把自己的門關起來定標準而是精準對應到聯合國最新的調試指標上面第三個就是希望能夠把預算標籤制度把它 把戰本攤在陽光下讓清楚標示每一個預算的流線讓大家知道說有多少資源真正落實在缺二弱群體跟社會保護上面我希望環境部至少這三點可以做這樣一個順便報告給我"},{"start":12221.982,"end":12248.983,"text":"這個委員這沒有問題但是我其實最源頭就是調試要投入多大的預算當然現在我們有一個調試的這個框架把我們現在認為做調試的東西都放進去但是跟離我必須跟你坦承我跟委員說就是真實的調試全世界都一樣不是說我們台灣做的不好其實要放在這上面這個都是一個很大的理想例如說委員委員站的委員提到的預算標籤的制度但是這個部件真的實際上要做有點難"},{"start":12249.744,"end":12259.936,"text":"但是我們會努力因為這個大家會對防災有感對長期調適放了大家覺得說啊這個短期又看不到所以就自然而然會把它剃到很後面的位置"},{"start":12260.595,"end":12286.003,"text":"最後一個是生技的問題 比如說我們現在看到這些我們企業變遷衝擊的說是硬體設施 可是應該是還是有些無形文化在地知識跟基層生技 結果我們現在只要看到就是說災情的時候 其實只看到災後發放救助金這樣的然後文化問題還是停留在災後修古蹟 可是我們其實常常會看到就是說我們其實我們的技是被迫中斷 傳統領域無法進入"},{"start":12287.924,"end":12315.475,"text":"然後在地知識被排除在決策之外所以其實我們常常在需要真正原住民智慧的時候我們就被排除在我的意思是這樣所以目前這個調適制度的一個缺口我希望能夠多管那各個部會跟原住民所謂的我們在地的生活經驗能夠納入這個知識體系讓我們的真正的在地知識體系能夠被國家所認同跟引用"},{"start":12316.757,"end":12336.336,"text":"這個我們也要來努力因為這個也涉及到跨部會的協調我是覺得我會跟原民會來討論這個議題還有第三個就是我們希望能夠有一些調適型的社會保護怎麼說呢其實在預防性的撤離安置的時候其實它是沒有津貼的也就是說"},{"start":12336.916,"end":12362.566,"text":"他本來在這個區塊他可以生活可以自己自主可是他被安置的時候他沒有地方可以工作沒有地方可以去種植東西結果他就等於是要靠天次要完全靠救濟來生活是不是在這個安置今天上面可以做從中的規劃還有就是說他氣候造成他的生計沒有辦法繼續工作的時候是不是也有一個支持的機制來納入我們以後再做這個所謂的"},{"start":12364.867,"end":12385.364,"text":"Poverty或者是生計的考量的時候是不是能夠把它列入我們實質的一個計畫裡面委員你提到這個非常好但是這個要實際上做真的是跨部會要去做尤其是你提到的這個調適型的社區保護或是說無形的文化這個部分我們會來跟跨部會來討論這個事情把調適的計畫把它放進去"},{"start":12387.966,"end":12409.457,"text":"最後的是我還是跟部長有一些交流加拿大的他們真的有把我們原住民的知識體系納入他們的所謂的知識體系他們已經把它加入國家的調適架構而不是停留在一個協辦的層級讓加拿大原住民真正的去幫助他們在地怎麼去跟大自然生活"},{"start":12410.498,"end":12426.318,"text":"紐西蘭的話它是把社會參與跟主人權益跟費用分攤都一起納入所以它有一些所謂的保護調適避免暴露或者是清理這些種種的新的政策都讓我們在台灣的原住民會耳目一新會覺得說"},{"start":12427.119,"end":12451.248,"text":"那紐西蘭政府怎麼可以把那麼尊重原住民把原住民的意見納入他們國家層級的一個概念那日本的話我們是很欣賞他們的一些緊急避難所指定避難所跟指定福祉避難所的這個制度化他們利用學校體育館社區的設施去承接不同階段的一個避難需求所以我們台灣要做的其實當然很多不過就接近我們鄰近國家"},{"start":12452.668,"end":12480.275,"text":"或者說像日本或者是有名著名的國家呢做這些很指標性的參考呢我覺得我們的進步會更快好 這個委員 這個我們來努力一下啦好 謝謝部長謝謝 謝謝好 謝謝盧信義召委的發言待會在林倩琦委員詢答完畢後休息一個小時用餐接下來我們請蔡玉玉委員發言"},{"start":12492.834,"end":12506.21,"text":"謝謝主席那我們是有請環境部部長跟資源循環署今天是副署長副署長委員好保定好"},{"start":12507.452,"end":12526.851,"text":"部長那因為最近大概整個這個戰爭的關係然後造成整個塑膠資材的包裝不管是商業用或是農用整個這個外包裝甚至是一些農用的包括農磨這一個數字之外我這是以前農用的"},{"start":12528.783,"end":12546.712,"text":"介紹都起底啦介紹起底是因為整個大家那個叫預期心理大家都超買啦這個狀況但是我比較在意的就是說到底我們在推動的這一些塑膠回收在農業的這一塊"},{"start":12548.351,"end":12565.75,"text":"那目前到底有怎樣的一些進度嗎因為現在看起來真的在檢討替代材料比方說用紫膜來代替濃膜的這件事情看起來在農業上就是沒有被很落實啦那這個原因是什麼跟委員報告"},{"start":12570.439,"end":12597.804,"text":"農模的回收其實這幾年來我們跟農業部農糧署那邊已經合作了幾年的時間由他們去補助一些限地小型的機具我們是輔導一些處理或再利用的業者讓農友所回收出來的農模可以方便處理另外一個問題就是說替代的材質因為比較涉及使用習慣等等"},{"start":12600.424,"end":12629.611,"text":"我們因為他第一個他可能還是要看他的成本那這個成本會比較高那這個看看是不是我們之後再跟農方這邊怎麼樣來商量因為那個部分第一個就是說啦你要做替代材質成本是高的這件事情為什麼成本會高原因在哪裡因為人手所以他就沒有到達一個商業規模他沒有辦法創造商業規模的話永遠成本就是那麼高"},{"start":12630.391,"end":12652.513,"text":"你沒有一下降成本就要多人用而且技術也才會不斷的突破在使用中才會有檢討所以我具體建議你們應該去找一些地方的因為現在地方的青龍很多會有一些青龍他們是有這樣的決心說我們是不是嘗試來用一些替代的一些材料"},{"start":12653.454,"end":12677.658,"text":"那你怎麼輔導他們去用所謂的輔導就是說如何讓他們控制他們的成本的情況之下讓他們去使用就剛剛講的類似紙膜或替代絨膜因為它除了成本高之外還有一個就是說因為你用其他的就是說那一種會自動分解的你的時間也快而已你現在的絨膜譬如它的黑膜它可以凍很久有那個塑膠材料你如果要大家用那種會分解的"},{"start":12682.619,"end":12695.223,"text":"農民也有跟我說 我就要來放 我買一個收容棟放喔 就要放在城口 等到需要拿出來真的要上戰場了 哇 已經分解掉了自動分解了 還沒上戰場就分解掉了就很諷刺啦 這是怎樣呢 就表示說 啊 他們在"},{"start":12701.685,"end":12706.088,"text":"設計上是不是要更符合整個農作農作的一個習慣要怎樣去調整說他可能要技巧要讓他長久的時間才會有分解的狀況這個以技術上可以去做像我們現在穿鞋都有一些都是屬於會分解的很久沒穿也會分解"},{"start":12723.097,"end":12735.992,"text":"持續有在穿它就不會分解現在技術真的是很厲害都有辦法打到這樣可是這一塊在農用的這一端看起來就是沒有被充分利用到這個很可惜我是覺得這個部分可以去檢討"},{"start":12737.253,"end":12758.207,"text":"這個我也去考察過台灣本地就已經有這種公司那他有這樣的能力那過去就是委員說到的市場機制不夠大家市場沒有打開那我們會想用這次這個機會來跟農業部來談一下把這樣的台灣已經有的這個技術可以鼓勵農民來做事是啊總是可以媒合嘛現在地方青農很多找青農朋友來"},{"start":12759.408,"end":12771.321,"text":"說我們環境部也有怎樣的計畫我們去推動讓他們可以在成本沒有落差太大的情況之下讓他們去使用永固把意見回饋回來技術就會再提升我們還跟農業部來合作第二個就是剛剛講農畝的回收回到農畝的回收那我跟這些農友在講"},{"start":12780.67,"end":12808.669,"text":"那現在龍某現在我們現在嘉義深圳我們翁縣長我們有設立設立了一個回收場龍某可以去那邊做回收未來就是可以供再利用這個方向是對的但是農民要參加農民要參加哇那個議院也跑不出來幼嬰也跑不出來那為什麼會跑不出來呢因為他龍某回收必須要要求農民他要把那個龍某整個清乾淨水洗"},{"start":12809.289,"end":12813.313,"text":"所以這個對農民來說他無形的成本是提高的他原本最原始他可能就說我只要請人家來處理農業的一般廢棄物他一棟差不多15塊至30塊那是他本來的成本我現在這個農務拿來我還要去水洗我還要去整個把它這個折好"},{"start":12835.333,"end":12836.915,"text":"那身份多 因為那東西要再請人工那身份就再管起來所以他們對於配合農牧回收這個塑膠回收的這件事誘因不出來"},{"start":12848.152,"end":12867.183,"text":"幼嬰賣出來 所以我也進一步我就去找這個回收商在公使這邊 我就又跟他溝通說你不就創造幼嬰給創造幼嬰給農民啊 你可以收更多結果他告訴我 他他們告訴我的原因啦事實上這個都一環卡一環喔他們現在說的關鍵"},{"start":12872.943,"end":12886.223,"text":"他現在說的這個關鍵就是說因為他現在這些東西回收來放在那裡準備就是他這邊只能做堆置可是他同樣的場域他就沒有辦法把它做為分解為量"},{"start":12888.63,"end":12908.772,"text":"他同樣的場域沒辦法做這件事啊這一端他就等於得再去委託第三人哇 抱歉真正有利潤的是在這一端把塑膠變成涼肉這一端才是有利潤的但是這一端又是另外的公司了他跟農民沒有對接所以他也不可能在這一端有利潤的他把"},{"start":12909.733,"end":12922.43,"text":"他創造誘因給農民那你現在叫這個他只是在負責堆製的回收商在負責堆製的回收商叫他創造誘因給農民他也擠不出利潤因為真正的利潤是要後面買大塑膠變成藥物的這塊"},{"start":12926.756,"end":12939.666,"text":"所以我的意思就是說,這個土地利用,既然我們這裡都同意要讓它做堆置那為什麼不可以在同樣的場域,就讓它同樣,它那些要來歸的,一些建築、消防來歸的要好讓它可以直接線同樣的場域,把這些塑膠把它轉換回去"},{"start":12948.593,"end":12958.399,"text":"那這個中間又要求說,那你中間如果有增加的利潤,你必須要回饋給農民,讓農民有辦法有這樣的誘因,他們去配合,他們去配合說他要怎樣,大家農民收回來,都怕回收,他們如果不怕回收,就是拿去分化綠燒"},{"start":12967.324,"end":12970.846,"text":"我剛才說的他們一棟開清五坑他拿去分化綠燒對我們來說比較貴我們要怎麼把這個誘因利用剛剛講的這樣的一個後端的處理機制創造誘因給前端的農民這個我覺得黃金部就應該要去想了那我剛剛也有講出目前的困境所在"},{"start":12985.313,"end":13011.656,"text":"好委員這個部分我會來跟農業部來協商然後我們找出一些好的案例然後把這個機制把它建立起來對我們來試看看農業部那邊可能就是卡土地的一個利用啦我覺得既然我們同意那裡已經可以堆置農磨是讓土地利用如果在這個部分鬆綁的話可以把這樣的一個這個農磨這樣的一個塑膠回收把它做得更加的落實更加徹底好不好好我們來努力好補丁我看麻煩你好謝謝"},{"start":13013.217,"end":13017.198,"text":"好 謝謝蔡英瑜委員發言 接下來請翁曉琳委員發言好 謝謝主席這邊有請部長有請彭部長"},{"start":13033.65,"end":13052.06,"text":"歐委員好是 部長好我想近期大家有看到一個新聞畫面就是高雄市最近出現一個紅太陽不知道您有沒有注意到這個有沒有注意到這件事情就是高雄在前幾天然後他們天空出現了一個紅太陽"},{"start":13055.618,"end":13082.155,"text":"這個這個有時候經過陽光的折射有時候真的會看到特別夕陽特別漂亮的時候的確是有可能這其實好像並不是在夕陽西下的時候的這個太陽喔而是就是在下午的時間出現這樣的這個紅太陽然後呢當時就是大家議論紛紛說這是不是有出現這個天氣的異象但是呢後來也有一些專家學者有說這個其實出現紅太陽就代表說有可能是我們的空氣"},{"start":13083.996,"end":13096.84,"text":"品質不好這個空氣當中出現有過多的懸浮微粒所以我懸浮微粒的濃度過高的時候它的比較短的波長光可能容易被散射反而使比較波長比較長的紅光"},{"start":13099.241,"end":13123.167,"text":"容易穿透因此形成太陽呈現這個紅太陽的這樣一個狀況就有這個太陽呈現偏紅的現象所以如果說這樣子的一個說法是正確的話是具有科學依據的話那就代表我們看到高雄的天氣看高雄的空氣事實上已經很糟糕達到一個不容忽視的一個程度"},{"start":13123.607,"end":13143.304,"text":"而包委員這個要看是不是一天還是每天都是這樣那如果一天的話其實每天的這個陽光或大氣的狀況不一樣它散射的結果就會不一樣可是如果是常常會出現的話是不是就代表說高雄那個空氣的問題其實蠻嚴重因為我們知道其實在高雄市境內就有三座的火力發電廠興達"},{"start":13145.626,"end":13150.468,"text":"大陵還有南部發電廠其實大家知道這個發電廠它現在又是以燃煤為主所以呢它排放的這個空氣排放的空污確實是蠻嚴重的那本新有注意到就是說其實環境部在5月的時候曾經應該是去年5月吧曾經發布了這個"},{"start":13167.155,"end":13186.752,"text":"氣品質政策排批書說2030年要將PM2.5要降到10維克2035年要降到8維克以下可是本席今天來質詢之前我還去上了環境部所提供的空氣品質監測網站然後看到像小港大流的PM2.5都是24點多"},{"start":13189.354,"end":13217.159,"text":"23点多所以你们现在所发布的你们所推出的这空品政策排皮书里面所谈的PM2.5要下降到10微克以下有可能吗荷包委员你要看的是我们说的是平均值例如说高雄的去年的平均值是15.6微克全国是12.8高雄的确是比较高一点点但是其实这个每天每天的状况我们是算一个年平均值来做一个目标"},{"start":13219.4,"end":13244.076,"text":"你認為高雄什麼時候可以降到8%?有可能嗎?基本上要非常的努力但是也跟委員報告其實整個高雄的確石化工業固定污染源的比例是全國裡面比較高的但是也有很多移動污染源各個縣市也都一樣其實造成空污的來源非常多元包含固定式移動石或是我們生活型態益善源都會造成空污"},{"start":13245.237,"end":13272.148,"text":"不是只有一個發電廠造成的因為有特別觀察到就是高雄他確實他的PM2.5你看如果說標準是10的話那WTO的PM2.5的標準其實是更低那麼代表說高雄此時此刻他的PM2.5的標準是超出正常標準的很多倍這難怪就是說為什麼台灣的肺癌比率很高但我們沒有去統計到底高雄市市民得到肺癌的比率是不是也是很高或許未來"},{"start":13273.849,"end":13287.76,"text":"這個部分我們已經跟衛福部有啟動合作應該要有一個合作的計畫了解全台灣的民眾得肺癌到底出現在哪些城市比例是最高估計可能也就是高雄台中吧有電廠的地方不見得"},{"start":13289.321,"end":13318.07,"text":"好的 这话我很期待就说你们有这样的一个计划那另外还有就是说你们今年元旦的时候也正式启动了PM0.1的监测本席在这边认为说这是一个很重要的一个进展毕竟PM0.1的颗粒很小那么它是同质量PM2.5的100倍然后更容易影响到健康可是目前全国只有设置6个监测站这6个监测站够吗是什么样的问题现在没有办法就是设置的比较多点"},{"start":13319.331,"end":13347.951,"text":"這個0.1它的儀器非常的貴因為它非常的精密所以全世界大概都是以一千萬人口設一個站為目標那我們其實只有三個站嘛學術也有三個站學術三個站所以實際上環境部這邊現在設置是三個站分別設置在哪裡北中南各一個來我們請我們市長一個設在三重一個設在台中一個設在台南都是僅離那個交通比較繁忙的地方來做設置做觀察"},{"start":13348.519,"end":13363.748,"text":"是因為本席認為說其實健康很重要那麼如果說像這樣一個監測是有意義的話這本席也希望就是環境部能夠這個可能下年度可以增加這個相關的監測設備的預算這樣的話可以有效的去了解整個台灣PM0.1的一個問題"},{"start":13369.651,"end":13395.679,"text":"那最後就是本席要想問的就是說因為現在我們看到就是針對高風險區域像是鄰近工業區的學校譬如說桃園的樹林國小高雄竹後國小等等那麼這些都是被視為所謂空污的受難區可是環境部有沒有優先在這附近設置一些可以空氣品質的監測點然後甚至未來的PM0.1的設備也可以設置在附近"},{"start":13396.039,"end":13417.54,"text":"我們針對這些污染在這個污染區重工業污染區旁邊的學校我們在這個去年度就開始啟動一個新的這個幫忙他的計畫把污染源找出來然後提醒他們要特別的去助力已經啟動了那高雄的比例的確是比較高所以我們高雄大概有八個點來九個點八個九個學校都在同步現在正在監測當中"},{"start":13418.581,"end":13427.352,"text":"好的那謝謝我想因為今天時間的關係但是最後本席還是希望可以請環境部提供近三年來就是高雄市的空氣監測"},{"start":13430.739,"end":13454.545,"text":"就是空氣品質的監測的數據尤其是有超標的這個數據是不是可以請環境部可以提供給本席這樣的資料就是近三年來的這個高雄空氣品質超標的監測數據希望兩週之內就可以給我這份資料可以嗎是 我們都公開在網路上面那我們會再請同仁提供對 我想要超標的好不好好 謝謝謝謝翁小林委員發言"},{"start":13458.707,"end":13472.298,"text":"楊瓊英委員 楊瓊英委員 楊瓊英委員不在接著我們請林倩琦委員發言林倩琦委員 林倩琦委員 林倩琦委員不在接下來我們現在休息下午1點20分繼續開會 謝謝"},{"start":13502.715,"end":13503.035,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":17346.135,"end":17363.828,"text":"現在繼續開會 請民俗分委員發言好 謝謝召委 是不是請我們這個彭部長有請彭部長"},{"start":17371.028,"end":17389.768,"text":"部長好我今天要來談這個氣候變遷調適裡面的高溫高溫的這個問題從國際到台灣現實面大家都看得很清楚它也不是單純的天氣熱它還包含了公共衛生"},{"start":17390.388,"end":17410.28,"text":"劳动安全城市治理还有能源负担更重要的还关系到社会不平等交制的复合风险所以这个风险是非常的复合式的那世界卫生组织也指出这个热的健康冲击是可预测的"},{"start":17410.82,"end":17417.884,"text":"且在很大的程度上是可預防的但是呢我們看到WHO在2000到2019年20年間有48.9萬人死於熱相關的原因那亞洲佔了45%所以在亞洲裡面因為熱高溫這個調適上的問題這個危害的風險可能更勝於其他的國家的"},{"start":17438.937,"end":17451.42,"text":"而且現在大家都知道65歲以上的族群的熱相關的死亡率相較於2000年代的初期已經很顯著的在上升那世界氣象組織則確認2024年是175年有觀測記錄以來最熱的一年"},{"start":17460.253,"end":17480.989,"text":"那我們的國家災害防救中心TCCIP已經指出1910到2020年間6個有百年監測站有歷史的這6個裡面夏季平均最高溫和高溫指標天數整體都上升"},{"start":17482.35,"end":17496.739,"text":"那極端高溫的事件的等級頻率面積還有持續的天數都非常明顯的在增加那高溫盛行的季節還出現提早發生延後結束的趨勢"},{"start":17498.2,"end":17523.369,"text":"那如果全球暖化持續升高三度的話極端高溫的強度跟持續時間大概可以達到兩度C暖化情境的兩倍提高三度是兩度的不是一增加一度是兩倍換句話說不是今年比較熱而已而是高溫風險本身正在重寫台灣的季節結構還有風險的分布"},{"start":17526.73,"end":17534.676,"text":"可是就是說這也不是一個抽象的概念因為大家都知道這個國建署也經常在講這個熱傷害熱危害那事實上WHO跟WMO他們在2025年也發布了一些報告極端高溫對室內還有對戶外的工作者都是顯著的風險"},{"start":17551.668,"end":17565.612,"text":"所以熱傷害不是只發生在戶外室內的悶熱的環境長者慢性疾病行動不便通通都是高風險的族群所以在這種狀況裡面全球24億的勞工71%的勞動人口都暴露在過熱的風險當中那偏偏 偏偏氣候變遷因應法它在這個地方的主管機關"},{"start":17580.529,"end":17604.356,"text":"就是你們所以這個環境部他不是旁觀者而是這一套體系你必須去整合的整合者主管機關就是你們那你們重點這個這樣還不夠是你自己也明顯的你們就自己揭示了你們也公開承諾了"},{"start":17605.436,"end":17623.964,"text":"你們的公開承諾就是說有一個抗高溫調適專區你們抗高溫有一個調適行動的路徑你們告訴大家說我們有兩項制度 兩項方法 兩項拓展"},{"start":17624.983,"end":17647.119,"text":"所以在去年 你們建立了共通性的高溫指標要建立這個 根據共通性高溫指標要啟動跨部會 跨層級的抗高溫應變機制你們去年這樣對大家講說 我要做這些這些"},{"start":17648.98,"end":17651.542,"text":"所以你們也找了 找雙北去試辦高溫調適的對策演練試辦裡面 你們也建置了cool map"},{"start":17659.833,"end":17686.447,"text":"你們的涼爽地圖啦那你們也訂了115年研擬企業抗高溫行動指引那你們也跟台南市合作了以跨部位資料串聯的辨識能源弱勢能源弱勢的老人 譬如說啦中低收入戶欠電的啦 不敢開的啦獨居的老人啦 等等啦所以你們去辨識誰是能源弱勢嘛"},{"start":17687.95,"end":17696.837,"text":"而且你們說我們未來要建立常態性的資料你們要去更新警示通報評估機制你們也講說這個台灣對颱風已經有完整的應變機制但是對熱浪還沒有所以你們要整合去你自己說"},{"start":17708.425,"end":17726.896,"text":"我要去整合氣象署 勞動部 衛福部 既有的資訊做起要建立共通性高溫指標共通性高溫指標而且要事半調適演練這個都是你們自己說的博定你知道嗎我們就是去年有在做這些工作"},{"start":17727.436,"end":17742.434,"text":"現在你說行動先行制度建構第二科學後援要打造全台高溫韌性網路你們的共通性高溫指標出來了嗎目前我們是有三個指標勞動部一個"},{"start":17743.635,"end":17771.207,"text":"然後中研院WGBT一個還有一個氣象署的這個熱的指標那因為氣象署的那個溫度雖然沒有考慮到濕度但是他有體感所以相對的是直接的所以目前的我們的那個指標大家的共同意見因為各部位還是有他自己原來現在還是三個啦對對那你講要建立一個共通性的高溫指標還沒建立好基本上我們出來的時候一個溫度出來都有三個都在多在那個地方"},{"start":17771.647,"end":17791.679,"text":"因為這三個意義不大一樣所以就這樣建制完成了還沒有還沒有所以你們的共同性高溫指標的文本你們還沒有對外公告那分級的架構啟動的門檻跨部會的責任表那你們還沒有你現在是還在什麼狀況包委員這個要一步一步來因為這個"},{"start":17792.52,"end":17814.881,"text":"跟符合你們自己的騎乘嗎?建制的騎乘嗎?因為這個東西是配合我們國家的調適行動綱領的計畫每四年一次所以我們原來的這個是今年年底結束所以我們現在要把高溫列入明年開始啟動的所以目前我們這兩次我都是拿這個嚴重高溫的樣態來做延練我們到底缺了什麼?"},{"start":17815.641,"end":17828.946,"text":"也不瞞各位委員說其實這個調試很多都是一個概念真的要做的時候發現都沒有在做所以我們用新的方法用特別針對高溫用一些方法來測試大概所有部會大概可以融合到什麼程度"},{"start":17829.594,"end":17856.652,"text":"對啊那所以你意思是說到年底以前應該就會訂出來我們現在今年針對今年的夏天也會開始演練例如說演練到40度我要提醒部長這個事情喔不是只有高溫的燈號現在你要做的是調適治理嘛那就不是把氣象的燈號或者是再加上一個濕度來當成治理的目標而是要回答我們"},{"start":17857.432,"end":17886.1,"text":"健康勞動教育都市空間交通社福等不同領域是不是需要不同的啟動門檻跟應變的邏輯否則同樣一個38度C對工地勞工對長照機構對學校對能源弱勢的獨居的長者對都市熱島區的意義根本都不一樣那根據英國的熱健康警報他就"},{"start":17886.9,"end":17913.989,"text":"它就不是一個單純的氣象警報他們英國健康安全局跟氣象局他們就共同運作一個天氣健康警報系統提供健康和社會照顧相關的部門使用英國政府的不良天氣跟健康計畫這個明確的指出這一套的天氣健康警報是該計畫的核心支柱之一那據此"},{"start":17914.389,"end":17938.768,"text":"去推動各級架構在服務提供能力培養早期預警和資料分析等面向的常態工作所以這個架構之下英國健康安全署每年發布熱相關的死亡報告監測把極端高溫期間的超額死亡統計對天氣跟健康的衝擊分析納入例行性的監測跟政策這個"},{"start":17940.689,"end":17961.361,"text":"作業所以這個做法的重點就不是說告訴大家說今天冷熱溼度有多高溫度有多高而是要驅動醫療照護要驅動社會福利地方政府和社區網路要及早啟動行動要透過制度化的監測跟資料分析然後最重點是要開始"},{"start":17963.042,"end":17988.006,"text":"進行這一些調整這一些行動策略那你們還沒有還在跨集團的討論其實我們已經啟動一個研究計畫我們找中研院的團隊然後運用衛福部的健保數據庫然後實際上的溫度會產生多大的健康的衝擊從健保資料庫拿到更科學的這個證據不然的話到底要幾度有什麼辦法但你現在就是還在我們已經啟動研究研究然後"},{"start":17991.227,"end":17997.695,"text":"對我們要從數據才能夠數據然後研究嘛那我們現在期待是看到你調適政策調適計畫調適行動出來是你現在談不上調適的政策和調適的"},{"start":18006.485,"end":18022.102,"text":"計畫你也沒有去整合各部位整個調適的行動綱領要怎麼行動我們現在最上位例如說我們的溫度幾度對於我們每一個年齡的國人有什麼樣的衝擊這是基本研究而已我們目前連這個都沒有這個是基本研究我們國家連這個都沒有但是我們講的是說你其實有在做啊"},{"start":18026.707,"end":18041.701,"text":"你們有一個抗高溫調適專區然後你們去年首度試辦了114年度抗高溫調適對策演練有啦 你有在做你去找各部會 中央部會16個單位 16個部會"},{"start":18044.944,"end":18072.96,"text":"然後找了台北市新北市參與地方政府兩個地方政府那你們做了一個調適對策的演練你知道嗎演練我有參加你有參加喔可是這演練就是閉門會議301301會議是聯合演練看到你們的演練情形就是參與單位16個中央部會兩個地方政府然後開一個會腳本式的桌上推演"},{"start":18074.437,"end":18101.198,"text":"然後不是真正的拿測試制度是否可操作的是否為可操作的壓力測試型演練啊你們就自己說這個桌上談兵啦然後有腳本當然有長官致詞合照啦灑水車照相做新聞稿啦但是我們很難看得出來就是說第一次啦這是第一次這樣做你們是把既有的業務跟宣導措施然後大家流水"},{"start":18102.521,"end":18125.93,"text":"報告一次啊大家各部會各地方政府流水洗次的報告一次啊那就花了兩個小時了三個小時了啦但真正的演練不是這樣子我們希望你看出說透過演練要驗證各個部會哪些跨部會的應變機制是有缺失的那要測試這一些制度的斷點是什麼所以"},{"start":18126.73,"end":18152.822,"text":"在這種狀況裡面要形成正式的高溫應變的SOP那在這種演練以後要產出完整的檢討報告缺失清單改善時程責任分工你們就是這樣子演練其實你們那個應該是大家討論可是你把它叫成演練了所以我們看起來你就像是在跨部會的在有一個應變的機制的模擬"},{"start":18155.438,"end":18160.27,"text":"可是看起來不是 各自報告各自的業務作業所以在這種狀況裡面"},{"start":18162.304,"end":18188.504,"text":"其實是沒有辦法測出真正的制度的問題這個資訊的傳遞有沒有延遲地方政府的執行有沒有落差你的糧食點是不是有足夠你能源脆弱或是一般普通脆弱的族群名單是不是完整跨部會的選擇是不是清楚地方跟中央的啟動條件是不是一致 有嗎"},{"start":18189.765,"end":18203.599,"text":"這個一步一步來那個是我們第一次這樣做而且只針對38我本來要求要40度但是目前我相信這個第一次之後今年我們在演練的時候會更加明確台灣曾經出現過40度的地方在哪裡雙北"},{"start":18206.676,"end":18227.996,"text":"所以现在你只演练双北其实未来的六都都有可能有机会那其实事实上未来我们会但我是要告诉你说相对全台湾的其他各地方其实双北的行政量能是比较高的资源也比较多的公共设施也比较完整的所以它的热浪应变的基础应该也会"},{"start":18229.346,"end":18245.916,"text":"比較相對有能力的那資源比較少的熱風險類型不同的人口結構比較脆弱的老人可能比較多的可能是農業縣市的沿海工業區的原鄉的高齡比例比較高的地區可能才更需要你們了"},{"start":18246.596,"end":18262.275,"text":"所以應該以後是要納入這一些那你的cool mapcool map你的治理工具它很像只是一個資訊平台你要告訴大家說如果你很熱熱浪來襲我有一個cool map這cool map它的"},{"start":18264.316,"end":18289.061,"text":"首波整合的雙北還有台南2400個糧食點提供500公尺內的糧食點查詢包含戶外有遮蔭降溫的這個設施室內有涼爽簡單來講就是冷氣啦有座位啦有冷氣有飲用水你們自己寫的有廁所啦有無障礙設施的而且大部分都是便利商店啦還有公部門的場所"},{"start":18290.501,"end":18296.703,"text":"但是我的意思是說其實住在家的人可能比你更知道家裡有冷氣不用洗的啦"},{"start":18298.368,"end":18322.822,"text":"你用這個cool map 那個意義 它要沖下了你的cool map應該是要成為一種治理的工具它不是打開地圖找哪裡有冷氣它比較像是資訊服務 如果它連結的應該是有地方高溫的應變 避暑空間的開放脆弱族群的主動關懷 社福的轉介 避暑動線的規劃"},{"start":18325.044,"end":18343.321,"text":"讓它成為一種治理的工具而不是說看哪裡有冷氣有廁所一步一步來啦因為我們針對南部也有針對老人獨有獨居長者作行測試我們目標就是未來要把這個全面連結在一起對啦所以我現在建議你說你要跟地方政府的高溫應變計畫社福長照的系統李林的關懷網絡整合"},{"start":18348.326,"end":18352.33,"text":"那在統計 你在使用上要統計人次導流的成效區域的落差 合作據點的開放率要盤點高風險行政區但仍缺乏足夠的糧食點的要去把它建構出來要不然這裡就只是一個cool map應該是比較可惜啦那跨部會去搜尋"},{"start":18369.947,"end":18394.449,"text":"需要優先幫忙的對象辨識能源的弱勢然後減輕能源支出負擔優先設置這個避暑的地點應該是這樣子去做才是比較好的cool map那在這裡其實我是要跟你講說因為這一些就剛好氣候變遷因應法這裡面講得很清楚"},{"start":18395.714,"end":18419.51,"text":"第17條第8款政府應強化脆弱群體因應氣候變遷衝擊的能力而這個就是環境部的法定的責任所以你們公布的氣候變遷風險評估的作業準則也把危害度然後暴露度脆弱度高風險地區調適的差距都納入了制度了所以民間團體也點出說這個"},{"start":18422.572,"end":18437.122,"text":"高溫調適論壇裡面講說老舊城區綠地錯置居住條件不良跟社會弱勢正在讓部分地區變成高溫調適這個高溫調適的孤島啦所以有些"},{"start":18438.323,"end":18450.192,"text":"高溫狀況裡面牽扯到很多的社會不平等真的是所以你看起來熱危害其實也有社會不平等的成分在裡面而這個社會不平等就是政府要去做把這個社會不平等資源的弱勢的然後健康的弱勢的或者是說別無選擇的那個政府的資源和能力介入進去把這個社會不平等差距縮小"},{"start":18467.904,"end":18482.357,"text":"那讓這個高溫危害的地區高危害的高危高風險的族群他們透過政府資源的介入可以把這個不平等差距縮小這個是很重要的是是我照去年做的是不夠的"},{"start":18483.378,"end":18502.764,"text":"這個要連結起來啦那也跟委員報告因為過去這個調適的經費在政府裡面是真的沒有特別去匡列人員也不夠現在開始要了對對對你今年編的預算增長多少碳費有啦碳費未來會來做調適以前都真的都沒有啦好OK好謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":18504.741,"end":18519.592,"text":"好 謝謝林淑芬委員發言葉延之委員 葉延之委員 葉延之委員不在接著我們請林楚英委員發言林楚英委員 林楚英委員 林楚英委員不在接著我們請劉建國委員發言"},{"start":18534.197,"end":18558.127,"text":"謝謝 有請部長有請彭部長這個天氣開始轉熱了 臨終開始開冷氣那這冷氣一開 碳排空污就會直直升 部長有什麼看法對 就是說我們 最近我們要提要多種樹 要把溫度降下來對啊 就像你穿西裝又打領帶你看這樣會不會更熱我是尊重這個櫃院 那我如果以後可以讓我穿短袖來我也可以"},{"start":18559.042,"end":18571.542,"text":"你要穿短袖穿短褲應該也沒有人會反對那是更環保那是真正是環境部的部長應該這麼說啦我會這麼請教你就是說因為一百一十年一十五年度的預算已經復違了"},{"start":18573.405,"end":18589.835,"text":"很不容易已經復為了現在已經過了第一季之後了那稍微用最快的速度來安排環境部的預算請部長來做這個報告今年的環境部的預算是有所增加但是我分開環境部在115年度的預算"},{"start":18591.156,"end":18606.105,"text":"綜合企劃及管制考減了110萬空氣品質保護及噪音管制少了986萬水質保護又少了將近快2.7億一般行政增加了1800多萬"},{"start":18609.264,"end":18619.308,"text":"然後環境部是今年要在一般行政增加辦理中央空調節能工程等經費這個我想相關預算減少了然後那個水質保護又減了2.7億"},{"start":18621.583,"end":18640.606,"text":"那環境部的中央空調水塔主機要換一換預算書變了將近一千兩百多萬基本上要換一些節省的空調我想也是應該的不過部長你看你們這樣的一個預算的一個調整這樣在一百一十五年度算是合理嗎"},{"start":18642.129,"end":18658.652,"text":"包委員因為這個最主要是因為財務法過後我們把有一些原來的補助給地方的工作這個移到這個一般性的補助款去了所以在我們的本部的總預算的部分就有所刪減所以水質保護基本上減了2.74都移給地方政府去處理了"},{"start":18659.253,"end":18675.75,"text":"對,大概有4億多,我們只剩下大概8千多萬,編列水質保護8千多萬,那大概4億多都移到一般性的補助款去了4億多都移到給地方政府去了?對對對,我們要不要水保師請來說一下跟委員報告,我們有關水質保護基本上有兩個計畫,一個叫做"},{"start":18678.433,"end":18706.918,"text":"因應稀有變遷的縣市管河川跟排水改善另外一個叫做水質的一個永續水質的一個推動計畫那剛才這個現在大家看到的簡列的部分基本上就是永續水質改善計畫移到一般性的補助款那另外呢我們剛才提到的這個因應稀有變遷縣市管河川這個部分呢我們有增列變列了今年新增的5億那其中呢4.1億是給是一般性的補助款"},{"start":18707.778,"end":18715.482,"text":"那也是增加了嘛增加又變成4.1就5億裡面是4.1給地方政府嘛是不是這樣不是因為這個2.7億是我們這邊減劣然後給地方政府嘛不是這樣嗎"},{"start":18720.61,"end":18746.5,"text":"這個是另外一支計畫就提到水質改善永續水質的推動計畫那個部分是從這個過去去年是編在水質保護這個向下那今年把它移到一般性補助款所以我們整體一般性的補助款呢有接近9.8億整體加起來有9.8億都給電汶晨午是是是那我們自己到底是我們自己跟這個跟這裡的單位這兩個兩個的主計畫基本上是"},{"start":18751.159,"end":18765.984,"text":"對照114年度是減了多少是增加整體來講是增加但是給地方政府完了之後對照114年度到底是增加還是減少給了地方政府之後我們基本上是增加1.7億"},{"start":18770.609,"end":18797.868,"text":"還在增加1.7億是整個水質保護向下水污染防治增加1.7那另外飲用水管理也增加200萬好沒關係那我們到時候在審查預算的時候我再請教市長再說明清楚一點啦沒關係好那我再看到有一個叫強化這個環境檢測智慧轉型計畫那個計畫的期準是111年到116年嘛分六年辦理分六年辦理那本年度原本是續編第五年的經費7000多萬"},{"start":18800.319,"end":18826.711,"text":"那本科目已經暫緩編列那上年度所列的5800多萬又如數簡列這什麼狀況能不能簡單說明一下跟委員報告這個最主要是那個上下年度的那個預算編列的一個說明那這個所謂如數簡列這個部分是因為我們原來編列的預算在去年度114年編列預算是購買這個聲音照相的設備屬於大氣環境室的部分"},{"start":18827.191,"end":18850.223,"text":"在整體抱怨計畫裡面在114年已經執行完畢所以我們今年度就是115年就沒有再編列那這個文字的說明是這樣那至於第5年以後的這個7100多萬的這個部分呢是由我們國家環境研究院在執行所以那個項目是編列在國家環境研究院那你要保護我就是說等於這6年的計畫基本上4年就已經完成了"},{"start":18851.124,"end":18873.522,"text":"大氣室的部分剩下部分還有兩年計畫是國家環境研究院要購買相關的檢測儀器的部分那個還是有持續編列以上說明所以上年度所列的5800多萬無數檢列算是算是遞到國環院我們的國環院就是上年度有編執行完畢的今年度就沒有再編這一筆費用"},{"start":18877.554,"end":18906.024,"text":"好 這樣我清楚那110年度的偵測噪音的儀器都已經買齊了80套 全國80套夠用嗎還是就不用再添夠用謝謝委員目前根據我們統計全國大概有427套那當然就誠如委員講這個噪音的部分應該是能夠盡量再爭取這個聲音照相那所以我們其實有在報行政院一個計畫是智慧儀式家園管理計畫是115年到18年我們希望再爭取300套"},{"start":18907.344,"end":18935.95,"text":"但是這300這個目前這個經費是計劃雖然有通過但經費核定的情況還不夠所以我們還要再持續再爭取所以原本要編在115年度的預算裡面是沒有把這個這個要增加這個需求編入在裡面目前行政院只有核定我們1300萬尾班費而已他就是我們希望爭取的設備費他沒有核定了所以我們可能後續要再去爭取因為整個抱怨計劃是有通過抱怨計劃已經有通過了"},{"start":18938.51,"end":18943.616,"text":"我想是這樣,當時在112點,我希望讓環保署變成環境部,環境部就是要有一個佈局的高度,就是佈局的預算。我是看到你們這個預算怎麼那邊減,那邊減,那邊減,然後你又要給地方政府。"},{"start":18957.392,"end":18971.447,"text":"那當然剛剛這樣講我是能夠理解啦不過我想還是進入到實質在審查預算裡面會再跟各位就教會比較清楚啦那我想該用則用嘛 該審則審不該用就是不能再從這邊去讓無謂的浪費嘛好 我接下來一個問題你們請回吧一樣是預算問題"},{"start":18977.032,"end":19003.234,"text":"這個今年五月環境部就要正式開始收取這個碳費那收取碳費會進入到溫室氣體管理基金當中然後再由基金來做這個補助那減碳技術及地方溫室氣體的減量還有這個氣候變遷調適協調研擬及推動事項執行公正轉型相關工作最後還是要辦理這個淨民轉型代管的利息補貼信任保證或其他有關事項對不對部長"},{"start":19005.697,"end":19013.23,"text":"那環境部預估今年會有多少的經費在碳匯的這個項目來入帳大概45億那我們編列大概40億的經費"},{"start":19017.532,"end":19039.651,"text":"入45億然後要支出40億左右將近快九成嘛這個也算是一筆大預算嘛對不對那我想各界在擔憂那政府收了這些碳匯之後會不會又重複補助這個排碳的產業變成這個碳排的企業左手交碳匯右手又拿你們的這個減碳的補助費用整個這個減碳大打折扣會不會是這樣"},{"start":19044.936,"end":19070.054,"text":"跟委員報告有關這個碳費的收入那依照預算法我們都是經過基金管理會來討論所以當時就是去年基金管理會也對於這個碳費的支用有一個原則上的一個規劃跟討論那當然今年隨著我們五月底確定收到多少碳費之後會再有更詳細的補助辦法到基金管理會去做一個補助辦法到現在還沒有出來嗎"},{"start":19071.815,"end":19084.792,"text":"因為現在大概今年我們其實大部分的時間是在處理這個碳費的收入因為有這個高碳洩漏風險有自主減量計畫的審查那現在這個部分已經告一段落"},{"start":19086.289,"end":19108.788,"text":"我知道該段落不過攤位的補助辦法還是沒有出來補助辦法我們現在先進行的就是因為其中有一項是去對於這個利息補貼還有這個信保的這個部分那這會涉及到我們要修改我們的這個基金的收支保管運用辦法那正在修這個辦法你還是沒有答覆我的問題就是說會不會這邊繳攤位這邊一樣又是接這一手又接你們的這個"},{"start":19116.64,"end":19131.746,"text":"我們主要是要補助如果有一些真的可以實質上減碳的一個技術如果說這個地方政府或是整個企業他有更好的一個減碳的技術出來那的確我們是有一些補助的一個措施我們編列了大概17億來做這個事情"},{"start":19134.907,"end":19147.677,"text":"所以你補出半島還沒有出來那大致上要框起來多少去補出地方之後的時期已經已經有著落了對這個是包含了企業跟政府就是有一個這樣的一個規模有這樣的想法但是整個細節還沒有定出來"},{"start":19148.953,"end":19174.72,"text":"但是你的大筆的 這大象的部分已經框出來了嘛對對 應該是這麼說嘛 對不對那我請問一下 剛剛有委員特別強調這個強化脆弱群體因應氣候變遷衝擊之能力這是入法在氣候變遷法裡面的第17條嘛部長知道嘛 對不對像我們因應一些能力大限因應這種極端氣候等等等不管是勞工不管是農民基本上坦白講是面對到非常大的挑戰那如果依照這一條第11條你們這個貪退的一個"},{"start":19177.662,"end":19182.211,"text":"預算規模是定大概多少大概這個叫做調適調適大概是2到3億左右調適不到10%"},{"start":19187.691,"end":19214.646,"text":"這樣比例合乎嗎目前生意就不到5%差不多5%左右因為這個其實溫管基建還是減碳為主所以包含我們現在剛剛的利息的補貼如果減碳技術的利息補貼或是說投資溫室氣體減碳的技術或是說有一些我們會用一個競爭型的如果說地方政府或是企業他有一個更好減碳的一個目標我們希望可以幫台灣趕快好的技術趕快先減到碳"},{"start":19215.553,"end":19236.343,"text":"我還是建議部長是不是那個整個的補助辦法趕快出來那我們來做參考好不好然後按照那個比例我們到時候在預算審查過程裡面還是可以大家是可以討論到了最後一個問題昨天那位總統要出訪非洲有幫國家授主一事那個部長有什麼看法嗎我為什麼要再問我一問部長這個問題是有HOMESHEET的相關問題"},{"start":19238.624,"end":19249.594,"text":"我覺得這個是非常沒有禮貌的一個打壓台灣的一個做法只有他們很沒有禮貌打壓台灣他們打壓台灣就沒有禮貌"},{"start":19250.591,"end":19272.497,"text":"這是惡劣嘛 非常惡質嘛 不曉得你就大膽講出來嘛 對不對而且這個違反國際的一個常理我們都清楚台灣的國際整個外交的處境是什麼樣的情況嘛所以很多過去台灣都是透過民間先行的這樣力量然後去讓整個外交得以增進國跟國之間的這樣交流那總統只是要過境這整個這樣的一個"},{"start":19275.106,"end":19292.561,"text":"一個非洲的航線就會受阻我就想說部長有沒有去思考到非洲是一個針對國際探權非常重要高增長的潛力大國是部長知道嗎非洲或是說中南美洲也都是是"},{"start":19293.402,"end":19306.842,"text":"所以台灣目前在談探權嘛對不對還是在導向在談國內的探權是沒有 還有包含國內的探會但是2030年之後要進入到不一樣的一個減碳階段那藉著這個國際探權的問題"},{"start":19308.584,"end":19316.851,"text":"我們絕對沒辦法忽視嘛當然還有四年的時間嘛我想今天總統只是要從一個非洲經過就會出問題那2030年之後誰要來做這樣的一個承諾呢台灣一定能跟國外買到ITOM的國家級的探權嗎"},{"start":19325.252,"end":19341.619,"text":"報告委員我們其實在去年的時候我也有跟巴拉圭簽了一個MOU然後我也到了巴拉圭去討論這個我知道那目前我們後續的正在進行實際上的這個ITMO的這個磋商協商所以我們的確在往那條路在走"},{"start":19342.993,"end":19363.636,"text":"對部長有先代巴拉圭這個我清楚啦對不對但是在非洲這一塊好像到目前為止都沒有嘛因為我們現在只有一個邦交國對我知道他就是一個高增長的一個潛力大國嘛那如果依照巴黎協定他並沒有規定一定要國與國之間的這樣的一個處理嘛所以你要不要鼓勵民間就先行然後政府做他們的後盾"},{"start":19364.133,"end":19393.084,"text":"是因為這個斯瓦帝尼其實我也跟他們環境部長有碰過面然後也討論過這個議題不過他們的目前的基礎建設還沒有到達那樣的水準所以我們優先跟例如說巴拉圭未來的就是例如說貝里斯 帛琉或是瓜地馬拉我們會同步的展開這樣的這個工作那我也期待白州的友邦我們雖然只剩下一個但是那個我們還是可以願意來未來可以跟他們合作那我也不排除其他非邦交的國家只要"},{"start":19393.684,"end":19416.751,"text":"跟台灣友好的我們都可以來做對因為不到四年的時間你未來五年十年二十年像這種國際的探險基本上如果沒有實行卡位到時候就承諾部長剛剛所講的非邦交的國家要如何跟我們可以來做這樣的一個合作到時候要不要賣給我們都是一個蠻大的問題嘛所以這個你如果不鼓勵民間先行"},{"start":19417.851,"end":19438.277,"text":"還是說政府要在某個環節上做什麼樣的一個努力當然不是只有部長一起之力啦,包含外交部,包含經濟部嘛這個如果不先卡,真的到時候換我們會被卡因為我們是出國導向的國家那到時候這可能會引起很大的成本的提高還有很多競爭力的下降"},{"start":19440.237,"end":19460.907,"text":"所以所以我知道部長在先前到巴拉圭的時候其實我看還蠻高興的不過好像只有局限這個地方很多地方如果我們只是去的只有簽MOU還沒有實質的這樣可以未來去做實際上的承諾交易還是甚至我們沒有跟他們有一定程度的一些誘因合作上的一個默契"},{"start":19462.383,"end":19464.948,"text":"我要說到時候沒買賣人是很剛好然後你又被中國一帶一路到時候又卡在前面這個真的對台灣的整體"},{"start":19474.096,"end":19497.515,"text":"是經濟上整個這個出國導向的競爭力會接受到蠻大的挑戰因為我們目前我們是用合法合規的概念例如說像巴拉圭他們自己在聯合國裡面也有合法合規的這個ITMO的一個機制所以我們是優先跟這種制度建立比較完善的國家在談那未來當然是需要卡位佈局我們會積極來做"},{"start":19498.556,"end":19527.155,"text":"我是建議部長是不是可以立即來做一些討論 檢討差不多在審預算的時候也可以給我們一些具體的一個作為跟方向我們大家再來做討論 好不好好 謝謝主席好 謝謝劉建國委員發言鍾嘉斌委員不在接著我們請何新淳委員發言何新淳委員何新淳委員何新淳委員不在"},{"start":19527.717,"end":19535.383,"text":"接著我們請羅志強委員發言羅志強委員羅志強委員羅志強委員不在接著我們請楊耀委員發言謝謝主席主席請一下彭部長有請彭部長姚委員好部長好部長我們大概今年開始要要要"},{"start":19559.178,"end":19582.836,"text":"要繳交這個碳費那環境部跟經濟部大概已經審查完了224家廠商符合資格那這些通過合格的廠商其實他是可以取得碳費的優惠費率的"},{"start":19587.048,"end":19595.495,"text":"那是不是還有一些廠商其實他是屬於高碳洩漏風險事業可是他並沒有完成"},{"start":19596.601,"end":19624.539,"text":"或者是提出審查其實第一個是說報告委員因為所謂的高單洩漏的部分已經都全部審查完畢了那只有一個就是說有27個廠他是屬於他想要申請優惠費率優惠費率就是150然後他裡面的提的計畫書不夠完整我們要他改他後來自己自願退出或是說他自己本身覺得300塊他付得起他就直接交了所以有27個廠"},{"start":19626.04,"end":19644.539,"text":"是有這樣的那至於說高碳洩漏的部分目前已經全部審查完畢了也都正式公告了給他們知道了所以那27家就是他不申請那不申請就沒有就不能獲得優惠的費率就是300塊"},{"start":19646.02,"end":19656.624,"text":"這個也是企業自己去做決定啦不過我覺得站在環境部的立場應該還是加強溝通啦因為它假如是屬於高碳洩漏風險事業我們是預"},{"start":19660.945,"end":19689.244,"text":"愈進愈增嘛我們收取碳費並不是最重要的重點怎麼讓他們能夠自主減量這個才是最核心的政策目標所以還是請部長這邊可以的話就27家嘛27家看到底問題在哪裡假如可以的話還是加強溝通好不好"},{"start":19691.546,"end":19702.937,"text":"那2026年開始我們擴大溫室氣體排放量的盤查列管對象可能要納入服務業 運輸業 醫療機構 大專院校這個為什麼"},{"start":19708.011,"end":19737.135,"text":"最主要這個是監察院給我們那個指教希望我們對於這個不是只有2.5萬噸以上的大概小一點點可能1萬噸以上的都要所以我們就訂了一些方案讓他們能夠來申報不過他們不用去盤查他不用花錢他只要把那個你的電費水費key進去大概就可以了電費key進去大概能源的使用它就是列管列管而已但是我們不會跟他們收"},{"start":19737.715,"end":19747.378,"text":"沒有費用的收取目前沒有這是監察院的要求我請教一下部長這樣子的盤查列管到底"},{"start":19759.85,"end":19782.642,"text":"真正的政策意義在哪裡他最主要是希望說每一家的業者他必須知道他雖然他沒有到2.5萬噸不用那碳費可是他也是屬於在社會裡面比較高碳排的單位所以他必須要去每年每年知道自己有多重就是要他我們的目標就是有點體重計在旁邊把他記錄下來那你每年每年每年量你就知道你該減了"},{"start":19784.504,"end":19803.015,"text":"就是讓這一些被擴大列管的對象知道自己就是有一點警覺啦唯一的作用就是這樣子嘛對不對那這個看起來部裡面也不需要耗費太大的人力"},{"start":19805.14,"end":19819.548,"text":"跟委員報告我們這一次去年公告就是要擴大盤查的對象大概總共加起來是四到五百家那我們其實同仁也有都逐一跟這些需要擴大盤查要申報的對象都有聯絡上"},{"start":19821.189,"end":19832.194,"text":"那這個部分最主要是我們去簡化他申報盤查的這個作業跟程序但是讓他們知道他要申報譬如說像醫院來講我們只有要求醫學中心需要做這個盤查的申報那醫學中心畢竟他規模比較大"},{"start":19841.818,"end":19845.181,"text":"所以我們去聯繫的結果這十幾家醫學中心也都可以如期來完成這個盤查跟申報也就是說不管他怎麼申報就是他只要沒有超過2.5萬噸也不是就是說跟委員報告就是因為這一些基本上都是"},{"start":19858.892,"end":19873.775,"text":"用電高的這個住商的服務業的這些行業那透過這個盤查他可以知道說他自己本身的這個譬如說用電用的多少那也可以幫助他們未來投入節電的工作我是這樣子就是說當然不是說監察院的意見"},{"start":19887.933,"end":19912.374,"text":"不好只是說我覺得行政機關必須要有自己的在政策上的決定的能力跟勇氣就是說監察院他有很多報告可能他在做的時候他並不像你們那麼專業需不需要做"},{"start":19914.264,"end":19932.338,"text":"他也不是你們的上級指導單位當然他有一些建議好的行政機關當然必須要有缺失的當然可能就是必須要改正嘛那假如說他是單純的建議行政機關並不一定要照單全收的"},{"start":19934.704,"end":19949.125,"text":"部長我時間的關係所以我就把剩餘的問題一併讓部長做個答覆所以我們接下來溫室氣體管理基金"},{"start":19950.186,"end":19970.211,"text":"會有每年像今年剛剛部長說大概預估會有45億那這一些錢的用途可能現在你也沒有辦法我剛剛聽到你們辦法也還沒出來主要的方向我可能也沒有那麼多時間可以讓你做回答"},{"start":19976.073,"end":19995.154,"text":"我就直接講就是說因為現在有很多國際的知名企業像蘋果他已經開始要求他的供應商的商品必須要定期盤查商品必須要盤查量化設定減碳目標跟溫室氣體的排放數據那我國中小企業其實很多"},{"start":19996.158,"end":20020.483,"text":"那很多中小企業他可能連要怎麼做碳盤查怎麼計算碳排他都不知道那我兩個問題好了就是說環境部要怎麼跟經濟部合作來輔導中小企業完成碳排的"},{"start":20023.814,"end":20031.288,"text":"國際接軌的要求那另外一個就是以後這一筆基金投入福島這裡的"},{"start":20033.274,"end":20057.439,"text":"可能性跟比例大概會多少好 謝謝委員其實第一個是上市櫃公司我們金管會就有要求他一定要做攤盤查那現在呢大概比較晚一點會做到範疇三現在只有範疇一跟範疇二那如果呢他是屬於要去跟國際做生意的例如說蘋果的供應鏈那也請委員放心都是大雖然是小型企業但是都是有規模也算是有賺錢 有本的啦"},{"start":20059.56,"end":20066.535,"text":"我們不用擔心 他們都必須要做而且提早佈局 超前佈局那可是"},{"start":20068.183,"end":20089.297,"text":"以後假如範圍越來越大現在我舉的例子是蘋果以後會不會有一些供應廠商他並不像部長現在講的這麼大的公司也有可能他可能也是國際知名品牌的供應商可是他並不像我們現在概念上"},{"start":20089.777,"end":20115.291,"text":"可能他上櫃或者是比上櫃小一點規模的公司可能也會有很多中小企業會面臨這個問題我現在是說環境部要怎麼去讓輔導這些其實第一個是說因為最近全世界受到包含戰爭還有川普總統的影響所以其實不瞞您說其實有一點慢下來"},{"start":20115.931,"end":20135.983,"text":"所以要馬上要增加目前我們來看應該反而是慢慢很多人會往後退往後退那我們也觀察到這個現象所以我們會也提醒金管會要減碳目標不變但是最近不要逼得那麼緊所以我們是不是有一點調整的空間他們也同意那另外一個是企業的輔導其實我覺得如果說企業他單純"},{"start":20137.043,"end":20153.211,"text":"只是做自己的減量自己做他不用花特別的錢去做碳盤查來我們這邊登錄我們開給他一個證明他至少有一個多少的量基本的就可以了因為多數的企業不是大排碳量他不需要花那麼多錢去做碳的盤查這個很花人力的所以我們是一步一步的來"},{"start":20156.23,"end":20174.648,"text":"部長講得比較含蓄啦我大概知道因為川普的對氣候變遷的立場所以可能很多很多檢探的步驟步調會慢下來這個也是事實不過可能也是"},{"start":20176.912,"end":20199.885,"text":"慢歸慢他總是會來啦以後一定會做大型的公司在面臨總統政策的因應他總是比較快速而且他比較有能力所以管理基金的部分有關中小企業怎麼因應未來跟世界接軌你們在擬定辦法的時候本席是希望"},{"start":20200.445,"end":20207.807,"text":"能夠放一些資源在這邊中小企業扶植的不好台灣的企業台灣的經濟很難成長"},{"start":20249.638,"end":20258.541,"text":"謝主席麻煩請彭部長跟氣候變遷署蔡署長有請彭部長跟蔡署長陳委員好"},{"start":20260.36,"end":20274.345,"text":"部長好那我們今天要討論這個因應氣候變遷國家應有的調適策略的問題那這個部分在112年由行政院核定的這個國家氣候變遷調適行動計畫總時程到這個115年這個計畫整本還蠻厚的500多頁我們看了全部的這個計畫書有幾個問題我想要請教兩位"},{"start":20288.59,"end":20293.6,"text":"第一個我想請教一下就是說在我們這個整個的這個行動計畫他的主筆是誰"},{"start":20300.943,"end":20327.275,"text":"他當時我們現在在執行的這一期是由各個調試領域的主辦單位他依照我們建議的格式斷寫之後那由環境部這邊來做一個會者所以基本上最主要的內容還是由各部會的主辦單位來寫的好就是大家負責寫一段這樣是不是對他負責的領域好那請問校對的是誰"},{"start":20330.388,"end":20356.298,"text":"我們氣候署的同仁有看但是各個領域應該還是由各個領域去看所以因為在我看了一下因為就是這本計畫那上面印的就是環境部所以我們就不會知道說還有這麼多的部會當中大家參與其中所以但是校對主要是你們環境部我們應該還是要整個要從頭看過"},{"start":20357.776,"end":20382.489,"text":"好那最後就行政院核定嘛是好那這樣子好來我們看一下第一個問題這個是一個小小錯誤啦首先呢環境部升格是112年8月22號那依據總統當年五月發布的這個環境部組織法結果這份計劃呢卻同時出現了環保署跟環境部的這個文字"},{"start":20383.149,"end":20405.083,"text":"那看你們兩位看一下這張圖表在報告的第39頁同時出現了就是我們看到這個框起來的兩個環境部跟兩個環保署而且還是在氣候變遷署的網頁上也可以看到的我想這樣子的一個錯誤雖然我想我們是可以體諒畢竟這個計畫這麼厚但是呢"},{"start":20408.53,"end":20435.024,"text":"因為這樣子一個的問題就是剛好是在就是說組織調整的時期那但是我們如果外界來看的話可能會質疑說你們整個規劃的這個嚴謹的程度那希望環境部趕快去修正那同時也要檢視一下其他公開資訊有沒有類似的錯誤好那這還是小事那我們再來看一下"},{"start":20438.066,"end":20454.737,"text":"一個國家的政策綱領其實就像我們的國父在遵行這個三民主義是一樣的那就是因為這個架構的問題根據這個國家氣候變遷調適政策綱領核心領域涵蓋了八個領域那這"},{"start":20464.843,"end":20483.512,"text":"這個政策綱領依這個氣候變遷因應法第八條呢是由國發會主導公布的那可是到了環境部負責行動計畫的時候呢你們卻把這個綱領的第一項災害拿掉了那改為能力架構"},{"start":20485.133,"end":20509.572,"text":"就總共就是八項這個綱領八項綱領變成七項那我想請教兩位說這樣子改變政策綱領的這個理由是什麼這好像三民主義變成四民主義我想要請教一下跟委員報告就是說當期在討論這個調適領域的時候那包括這個災害領域其實它原來在國發會執行的就是包括有國科會"},{"start":20510.433,"end":20516.735,"text":"還有這個經濟部等等的單位那時候各個領域在討論的時候認為這個災害領域他其實他應該是放在這個災防法的這個工作裡面然後呢涉及不同的調適領域的這個災害呢就由各個不同的七個那個調適領域來對災害的去做這個"},{"start":20532.338,"end":20546.004,"text":"調試工作所以在經過整個的討論才會這個不是環境部自己的決定是有提報到國發會去討論那同意把它改成調試領域就是七項然後另外再加一個能力建構"},{"start":20547.557,"end":20566.397,"text":"好我們就是總之八項的綱領變成後來大家同意把它改成七項到你們這邊的時候那好我再請教一下我們看到第36頁我幫他那個簡報我把它框起來你們看一下喔"},{"start":20569.439,"end":20592.688,"text":"考量前期國家調適行動方案災害領域其屬性為導致氣候變遷危害的因素我想請教一下部長你同意這句話嗎這句話有點語意上怪怪的哪裡怪災害是氣候變遷造成的衝擊也會是一種災害"},{"start":20595.331,"end":20622.535,"text":"呃我這樣講好了因為這個整個邏輯看起來他是把這個結果當成原因啦因為災害他是一個結果災害不是原因那原因呢就是我講致因啦導致的那個齁致因導致的致齁致因他不等於災害那危害呢他也不等於災害那影響實就是影響造成實際的損失的時候我們可以說他是災害"},{"start":20623.985,"end":20640.892,"text":"我這樣講沒錯吧是是好所以這句話有沒有怪怪的很怪好那其實你們的報告是有去解釋理由是說災害的屬性屬於導致氣候變遷危害的因素而非可進行調適操作的系統"},{"start":20641.872,"end":20661.145,"text":"那當然這樣看起來我們整個看起來就是說理由好像這個整個因果是很不明確的那變成說你們的認定是因為災害來導致氣候變遷而產生危害也就是先有了災害才會產生氣候變遷造成的危害而不是氣候變遷調適的不好會產生災害"},{"start":20664.947,"end":20689.163,"text":"我想這些都在說明在你們寫的這個報告的第36頁裡面你們可以再回頭去看那我想就是說一般的行動計畫是根據這個政策綱領來規劃的那你們這樣子的處理我不曉得是你們想要打臉國發會呢還是要搞混立法委員呢還是說你要搞亂這個國家呢"},{"start":20691.741,"end":20715.048,"text":"這個我們回去再檢討一下就是說這個到明年開始的新的一期我們會用新的觀念來做處理因為其實過去像我舉例例如說我們現在的TCCIP我們負責調試最重要的單位叫TCCIP就是負責很多的科學數據現在也在國家災害防救科技中心裡面那未來我們就希望說以環境部如果主管調試的話"},{"start":20716.908,"end":20744.793,"text":"應該在我們下面有一個調試的結合政策還有操作的一個協助的一個平台來服務大家目前我們沒有那個單位那我們本部呢我們的只有一個調試組下面也只有一個科專門來做這個事所以我們發現這個人力各方面都很混雜所以我們需要一個整合所以未來呢我們期待在新的一個明年開始的計畫或是說我們如果成立一個行政法人的話這個部分把它釐定的更清楚一點"},{"start":20745.762,"end":20764.123,"text":"好謝謝部長那我想這個氣候我是說這一本這一本行動計劃雖然合定的時候校對的時候部長還沒有上任嗎還沒有那看起來可能也"},{"start":20765.495,"end":20786.11,"text":"就說那個時候應該也不是你該負責的啦但是你現在當部長我覺得你要不要你們也可以回頭去看一下搞不好這個錯誤還不只這樣啊是是那所以那個之前你們那個你們署裡面同仁在在校對可能我不曉得發生什麼事那因為就是有這樣子邏輯的問題啊"},{"start":20789.272,"end":20811.104,"text":"就是說你講這個能力架構的這個成效因為平常其實很難檢驗一定是災害發生的時候才可以證明所以那你們如果再加上說因為有這個邏輯錯置的問題所以以這個馬灘煙色湖的這個一流的災害為例很多預算可能都提早給了地方政府了"},{"start":20811.764,"end":20834.701,"text":"那到災害真的發生的時候 預算可能也流用了或者執行面就是說看不到成效而且屆時中央可能也沒有經費了到最後搞不好還得借助這個民間的力量來救災所以我想這個部分我們環境部也應該要藉由這個馬太安的這個災害的事故來檢討說我們這樣子的調整"},{"start":20837.683,"end":20854.955,"text":"是不是妥適可以好好想一想因為下一期的行動計畫明年116年會是新的開始那部長再麻煩你要就是說你們在審慎評估這個災害呢在這個氣候變遷的這個調適的定位到底是要"},{"start":20855.936,"end":20884.233,"text":"怎麼樣處理可以可以我們來處理這件事情好那我最後要跟布朗討論一個健康領域的問題我想我們台灣呢處於這個亞熱帶那面對這個氣候變遷的調適主要還是高溫所造成的這個熱危害那在這份報告裡面呢你們有擬定了一個目標第一項是確保氣候變遷下的環境品質你們對於這個熱的唯一品質指標是溫度"},{"start":20887.035,"end":20906.084,"text":"我們再看看你們的策略就是結合這個健康的資訊宣導民眾高溫的熱危害我想部長您剛好是氣象專家一定知道氣象局的監測站大部分都是在比較高的山上"},{"start":20906.764,"end":20930.84,"text":"那所以監測到的氣溫如果要對應到在平面民眾實際的生活領域可能會有低估的問題所以國外其實現在很多是用這個HIT INDEX來取代這個氣溫因為相對溫度會影響我們的排汗那台灣高濕度下再加上高溫高氣溫"},{"start":20932.541,"end":20952.826,"text":"實際上對於這個熱危害產生的健康威脅是非常大的那我建議你們參考這個要不要比照美國以酷熱指數為指標來監測這個高熱的環境例如說將來收取碳費的事業單位環境酷熱指數有多少那提醒他們的作業勞工做好這個熱危害的預防"},{"start":20953.686,"end":20977.128,"text":"那針對這些高溫地區建議環境部不要只有溫度而且要採用這個健康相對的這個指數去監控利用雲端上傳那累積足夠的這個數據以這個AI技術去做判斷我想這樣子比較能夠提醒民眾掌握資訊才能夠真正落實你們的策略跟措施我不曉得部長對於這樣的建議"},{"start":20978.149,"end":20999.883,"text":"好謝謝委員因為其實去年我們開始把大家匯集各部會匯集在一起的時候發現就是三個指標啦委員你說的是勞動部他們用的那衛福部用WBGT啦那我們習慣是氣象署因為國人都習慣氣象署的那個溫度那個辨識度最高那這三種意義不一樣那我們又把它整合在一起等於是一次都提供三個"},{"start":21000.543,"end":21023.073,"text":"那目前我也跟委員報告就是說我們現在有跟中研院還有衛福部的一些專家一起合作我希望他們找出說到底哪一個溫度哪一個指標對應的健康實際上從健保資料庫撈出來的結果會得到一個科學上的更明確的數據我們再來選哪一個指標來做台灣的地帶現在是我們三個都一起陳列啦"},{"start":21023.373,"end":21043.12,"text":"三個一起也不是什麼壞事那我想這個你們可以再去討論討論那就是說對於這個環境部碳費的使用氣候變遷調適工作計畫的他是重要的用途而且在農業上也已經納入了氣候變遷調適的重點工作"},{"start":21046.261,"end":21066.068,"text":"我在這邊我要講一下我們台東的另外一個名產大家除了釋迦以外有一個很重要的那個叫做焚風因為這個暖化影響加大這個我們台東農業的損害是不是就是說"},{"start":21067.268,"end":21087.753,"text":"因為畢竟現在農業已經納入這個氣候變遷一個氣候變遷調適的這個重點工作所以這樣子暖化影響的造成的這個農業損害是不是就是說部長你也可以考慮就是說除了加強輔導台東受到風風衝擊影響的農業然後如何減少弱果果蠅增生的問題因為畢竟這個"},{"start":21096.756,"end":21117.67,"text":"氣候這個氣溫比如在像一般市家應該到26度以上呢他們就是太熱然後他們會產生市家本身會產生一些生理變化所以造成這個弱國那所以這個部分對於災損嚴重的受災農民也可以接受來自碳費補助的這個低利貸款"},{"start":21118.45,"end":21135.977,"text":"那或者是其他有什麼樣攤費的補助我想這個部分是不是請部長能夠體恤我們台東地區的特殊性好這個焚風的問題好來做一下研究好謝謝委員因為那個第一個是說這個農業部他有一個農損的補助啦那我會去check"},{"start":21136.357,"end":21161.809,"text":"他們如果有針對焚風的話我們如何去做處理那第二個呢其實台東很適合這種所謂原民有很多氣候變遷的智慧那特別是調試的部分其實我們應該除了這個之外還可以更多啦那第三個呢焚風到底跟氣候變遷有沒有關係未來呢我們希望可以有更好的歸因的因子找出來到底是不是如果是的話那當然我們應該可以有優先的來補助"},{"start":21162.609,"end":21186.306,"text":"因為我想考察也可以去考察一下台中的分封因為今年四月份照理來講四月初其實市價應該還有一些產量但是都因為那個熱風的關係所以那個落果也很嚴重所以四月本來還有一些訂單已經都交不出來了我想這個部分再請部長我們一起來考察來看一下好 謝謝謝謝委員 謝謝"},{"start":21189.38,"end":21199.24,"text":"好 謝謝執行委員發言 本日會議詢答好全部結束委員 黃玉祥 羅志強 徐欣盈所提出"},{"start":21201.479,"end":21227.715,"text":"質詢列入紀錄刊登公報現在做以下決定及決議一報告說明及詢答完畢二委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於兩週內已書面答覆文令有要求期限者從其鎖定三中華民國一百一十五年度中央政府總預算案關於環境部主管公務及基金預算"},{"start":21228.308,"end":21247.374,"text":"直轄市及縣市政府一般性補助款環境部主管部分預算以及環境資源研究發展基金會等4家財團法人115年度預算書案令則其繼續審查本日會議到此結束現在休息明天早上9時繼續開會"}]}},{"id":"168764","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168764","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5880b40c5769f102a8a05407de39bdf38d440c98c629e7a03d87abdfaedbe31e55ec2f4bd2b2985ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊曜","委員發言時間":"14:03:01 - 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謝謝 有請部長有請彭部長這個天氣開始轉熱了 臨座開始開冷氣那這冷氣一開 碳排空污就會直直升 部長有什麼看法對 就是說我們 最近我們要提要多種數 要把溫度降下來對啊 就像你穿西裝又打領帶你看這樣會不會更熱我是尊重這個櫃院 那我如果以後可以讓我穿短袖來我也可以"},{"start":39.059,"end":51.483,"text":"你要穿短袖穿短褲應該沒有人會反對那是更環保這真正是環境部的部長應該這麼說啦我會這麼請教你就是說因為一百一十年一十五年度的預算已經復違了"},{"start":53.419,"end":69.855,"text":"很不容易已經復為了現在已經過了第一季之後了那稍微用最快的速度來安排環境部的預算然後請部長來做這個報告今年的環境部的預算是有所增加但是我翻開環境部在115年度的預算"},{"start":71.193,"end":86.008,"text":"綜合企劃及管制考減了110萬空氣品質保護及噪音管制少了986萬水質保護又少了將近快2.7億一般行政增加了1800多萬"},{"start":89.301,"end":99.361,"text":"然後環境部是今年要在一般行政增加辦理中央空調節能工程等經費這個我想相關預算減少了然後那個水質保護又減了2.7億"},{"start":101.6,"end":120.618,"text":"那環境部的中央空調水塔主機要換一換預算書變了將近一千兩百多萬基本上要換一些節省的空調我想也是應該的不過部長你看你們這樣的一個預算的一個調整這樣在一百一十五年度算是合理嗎"},{"start":122.146,"end":138.546,"text":"包委員因為這個最主要是因為財務法過後我們把有一些原來的補助給地方的工作這個移到這個一般性的補助款去了所以在我們的本部的總預算的部分就有所刪減所以隨時保護基本上減到2.74都移給地方政府去處理"},{"start":139.267,"end":155.787,"text":"對,大概有4億多,我們只剩下大概8千多萬,編列水質保護8千多萬,那大概4億多都移到一般性的補助款去了4億多都移到給地方政府去?對對對,我們要不要水保師簡單說一下跟委員報告,我們有關水質保護基本上有兩個計畫,一個叫做"},{"start":158.47,"end":186.952,"text":"因應稀有變遷的縣市管河川跟排水改善另外一個叫做水質的一個永續水質的一個推動計畫那剛才這個現在大家看到的簡列的部分基本上就是永續水質改善計畫移到一般性的補助款那另外呢我們剛才提到的這個因應稀有變遷縣市管河川這個部分呢我們有增列變列了今年新增的5億那其中呢4.1億是給一般性的補助款"},{"start":187.812,"end":192.375,"text":"那也是增加了嘛,5億裡面是4.1給地方政府嘛不是因為這個2.7億是我們這邊減劣然後給地方政府嘛,不是這樣嘛"},{"start":200.624,"end":216.292,"text":"這個是另外一支計畫水質改善永續水質的推動計畫那個部分是從這個過去去年是編在水質保護這個向下那今年把它移到一般性補助款所以我們整體一般性的補助款有接近9.8億整體加起來有9.8億"},{"start":221.687,"end":246.021,"text":"那我們自己跟這你的單位這兩個的主計劃基本上是對照114年度是減了多少是增加 整體來講是增加但是給地方政府完了之後對照114年度到底是增加還是減少給了地方政府之後我們基本上是增加1.7億"},{"start":250.626,"end":277.9,"text":"還在增加1.7億是這個水質保護向下水污染防治增加1.7那另外飲用水管理也增加200萬好沒關係那我們到時候在審查預算的時候我再請教市長再說明清楚一點沒關係好那我再看到有一個叫強化這個環境檢測智慧轉型計畫那個計畫的期整是111年到116年嘛分六年辦理分六年辦理那本年度原本是續編第五年的經費7000多萬"},{"start":280.356,"end":306.745,"text":"那本科目已經暫緩編列那上年度所列的5800多萬又如數簡列這什麼狀況能不能簡單說明一下跟委員報告這個最主要是那個上下年度的那個預算編列的一個說明那這個所謂如數簡列這個部分是因為我們原來編列的預算在去年度114年編列預算是購買這個聲音照相的設備屬於大氣環境室的部分"},{"start":307.205,"end":330.263,"text":"在整體抱怨計畫裡面在114年已經執行完畢所以我們今年度就是115年就沒有再編列那這個文字的說明是這樣那至於第5年以後的這個7100多萬的這個部分呢是由我們國家環境研究院在執行所以那個項目是編列在國家環境研究院那你要保護就是說等於這6年的計畫基本上4年就已經完成了"},{"start":331.163,"end":353.54,"text":"大氣石的部分剩下的部分還有兩年計畫是國家環境研究院要購買相關的檢測儀器的部分那個還是有持續編列以上說明所以上年度所列的5800多萬無數檢列算是算是提到國環院我們的國環院就是上年度有編執行完畢的今年度就沒有再編這一筆費用"},{"start":357.588,"end":386.038,"text":"好 這樣我清楚那110年度的偵測噪音的儀器都已經買齊了80套 全國80套夠用嗎還是就不用再添夠了謝謝委員 目前根據我們統計全國大概有427套那當然就誠如委員講這個噪音的部分應該是能夠盡量再爭取這個聲音照相那所以我們其實有在報行政院一個計畫是智慧儀式家園管理計畫是115年到18年我們希望再爭取300套"},{"start":387.358,"end":415.988,"text":"但是這300這個目前這個經費是計劃雖然有通過但經費核定的情況還不夠所以我們還要再持續再爭取所以原本要編在115年度的預算裡面是沒有把這個這個要增加這個需求編入在裡面目前行政院只有核定我們1300萬尾班費而已他就是我們希望爭取的設備費他沒有核定了所以我們可能後續要再去爭取因為整個抱怨計劃是有通過抱怨計劃已經有通過了"},{"start":418.527,"end":423.633,"text":"我想是這樣,當時在112點,我希望讓環保署變成環境部,環境部就是要有一個佈局的高度,就是佈局的預算我是看到你們這個預算怎麼那邊減、那邊減、那邊減,然後你又要給地方政府"},{"start":437.509,"end":451.484,"text":"那當然剛剛這樣講我是能夠理解啦不過我想還是進入到實質在審查預算裡面會再跟各位就教會比較清楚啦那我想該用則用嘛 該審則審不該用就是不能再從這邊去讓無謂的浪費嘛好 我接下來一個問題你們請回吧一樣是預算問題"},{"start":457.049,"end":483.146,"text":"這個今年五月環境部就要正式開始收取這個碳配那收取碳配會進入到溫室氣體管理基金當中然後再由基金來做這個補助那減碳技術及地方溫室氣體的減量還有這個氣候變遷調適協調研擬及推動事項執行公正轉型相關工作最後還是要辦理這個建民轉型代管的利息補貼信任保證或其他有關事項對不對 部長"},{"start":485.487,"end":493.263,"text":"那環境部預估今年會有多少的經費在碳匯的這個項目來入帳大概45億那我們編列大概40億的經費"},{"start":497.546,"end":519.671,"text":"入45億,然後要支出40億左右,將近快九成嘛這個也算是一筆大預算嘛,對不對?那我想各界在擔憂,政府收了這些碳費之後,會不會又重複補助這個排碳的產業變成這個碳排的企業,左手交碳費,右手又拿你們這個減碳的補助費用整個這個減碳大打折扣,會不會是這樣?"},{"start":524.973,"end":551.129,"text":"跟委員報告有關這個碳費的收入那依照預算法我們都是經過基金管理會來討論所以當時就是去年基金管理會也對於這個碳費的支用有一個原則上的一個規劃跟討論那當然今年隨著我們5月底確定收到多少碳費之後會再有更詳細的補助辦法到基金管理會去做一個所以補助辦法到現在還沒有出來嗎"},{"start":551.829,"end":564.809,"text":"因為現在大概今年我們其實大部分的時間是在處理這個碳費的收入因為有這個高碳洩漏風險有自主減量計畫的審查那現在這個部分已經告一段落"},{"start":566.226,"end":583.849,"text":"我知道該更單獨,不過攤位補助辦法還是沒有出來補助辦法我們現在先進行的就是因為其中有一項是去對於這個利息補貼還有這個信保的這個部分那這個會涉及到我們要修改我們的這個基金的收支保管運用辦法那正在修這個辦法"},{"start":585.424,"end":613.958,"text":"你還是沒有答覆我的問題啦就是說會不會這邊腳炭會這邊一樣又是接這一手又切你們的這個排檔來答覆的這個相關補助我們主要是要補助齁如果有一些真的可以實質上減碳的一個技術如果說這個地方政府或是整個企業他有更好的一個減碳的技術出來那的確我們是有一些補助的一個措施我們編列了大概17億來做這個事情那其他 對"},{"start":614.938,"end":627.71,"text":"所以你補儲半島還沒有出來那大致上要框起來多少去補儲地方之後的17億已經已經有著落了對這個是包含了企業跟政府就是有一個這樣的一個規模有這樣的想法但是整個細節還沒有定出來"},{"start":628.991,"end":654.75,"text":"但是你的大筆的這大象的部分已經狂出來了嘛對對應該是這麼說嘛對不對那我請問一下剛剛有委員特別強調這個強化脆弱群體因應氣候變遷衝擊之能力這是入法在氣候變遷法裡面的第17條嘛部長知道嘛對不對像我們因應一些能力大限因應這種極端氣候等等等等不管是勞工不管是農民基本上坦白講是面對到非常大的挑戰那如果依照這一條第11條你們這個貪退的一個"},{"start":657.692,"end":662.239,"text":"預算規模大概是多少大概這個叫做調適調適大概是兩到三億左右不到10%"},{"start":667.708,"end":693.94,"text":"這樣比例合乎嗎目前生意就不到5%差不多5%左右因為這個其實溫管基建還是減碳為主所以包含我們現在剛剛的利息的補貼如果減碳技術的利息補貼或是說投資溫室氣體減碳的技術或是說有一些我們會用一個競爭型的如果說地方政府或是企業他有一個更好減碳的目標我們希望可以幫台灣趕快好的技術趕快先減到碳"},{"start":695.57,"end":716.378,"text":"我還是建議部長是不是整個的補助辦法趕快出來那我們來做參考好不好然後按照那個比例我們到時候在預算審查過程裡面還是可以大家是可以討論到了最後一個問題昨天那位總統要出訪非洲有幫國家授主一事那個部長有什麼看法嗎我為什麼要再問我一問部長這個問題是有HOMESHEET的相關問題"},{"start":718.657,"end":729.626,"text":"我覺得這個是非常沒有禮貌的一個打壓台灣的一個做法只有他們很沒有禮貌打壓台灣他們打壓台灣就沒有禮貌"},{"start":730.628,"end":752.701,"text":"這是惡劣嘛 非常惡質嘛 部長你就大膽講出來嘛 對不對而且這個違反國際的一個常理我們都清楚台灣的國際整個外交的處境是什麼樣的情況嘛所以很多過去台灣都是透過民間先行的這樣力量然後去讓整個外交得以增進國跟國之間的這樣交流那總統只是要過境這整個這樣的一個"},{"start":755.68,"end":772.571,"text":"非洲的航線就會受阻我是想說部長有沒有去思考到非洲是一個針對國際探權非常重要高增長的潛力大國是部長知道嗎非洲或是說中南美洲也都是是"},{"start":773.411,"end":786.855,"text":"所以台灣目前在談探權嘛,對不對?還是在導向在談國內的探權?沒有,還有包含國內的探會但是2030年之後要進入到不一樣的一個減碳階段嘛那藉著這個國際探權的問題"},{"start":788.616,"end":796.663,"text":"我們絕對沒辦法忽視嘛當然還有四年的時間嘛我想今天總統只是要從一個非洲經過就會出問題那2030年之後誰要來做這樣的一個承諾呢台灣一定能跟國外買到ITOM的國家級的探權嗎"},{"start":805.286,"end":821.662,"text":"報告委員我們其實在去年的時候我也有跟巴拉圭簽了一個MOU然後我也到了巴拉圭去討論這個我知道我們後續的正在進行實際上的這個ITMO的這個磋商協商所以我們的確在往那條路在走"},{"start":823.007,"end":843.642,"text":"對部長有先到巴拉圭這個我清楚啦對不對但是在非洲這一塊好像到目前為止都沒有嘛因為我們現在只有一個對我知道他就是一個高增長的一個潛力大國嘛那如果依照巴黎協定他並沒有規定一定要國與國之間這樣的一個處理嘛所以你要不要鼓勵民間就先行然後政府做他們的後盾"},{"start":844.162,"end":873.124,"text":"是 因為這個史瓦帝尼其實我也跟他們環境部長有碰過面然後也討論過這個議題不過他們的目前的基礎建設還沒有到達那樣的水準所以我們優先跟例如說巴拉圭未來的就是例如說貝里斯 帛琉或是瓜地馬拉我們會同步的展開這樣的這個工作那我也期待喔 非洲的友邦我們雖然只剩下一個但是那個我們還是可以願意來未來可以跟他們合作那我也不排除其他非邦交的國家只要"},{"start":873.724,"end":896.787,"text":"跟台灣友好的我們都可以來做對因為不到四年的時間你未來五年十年二十年像這種國際的探險基本上如果沒有實行卡位到時候就成為部長剛剛所講的非邦交的國家要如何跟我們可以來做這樣的一個合作到時候要不要賣給我們都是一個蠻大的問題嘛所以這個你如果不鼓勵民間先行"},{"start":897.888,"end":919.414,"text":"還是說政府要在某個環節上做什麼樣的一個努力當然不是只有部長一起之力啦,當然外交部,當然經濟部嘛這個如果不先卡,真的到時候換我們會被卡因為我們是出國導向的國家那到時候這可能會引起很大的成本的提高還有很多競爭力的這樣一個下降"},{"start":920.694,"end":940.921,"text":"所以我知道部長在先前到巴拉圭的時候其實我看起來蠻高興的不過好像只有侷限這個地方很多地方如果我們只是去的只有簽MOU還沒有實施的這樣可以未來去做實際上的承諾交易還是甚至我們沒有跟他們有一定程度的一些誘因合作上的一個默契"},{"start":942.398,"end":950.303,"text":"我要說到時候沒買賣是很剛好然後你又被中國的一帶一路到時候又卡在前面"},{"start":952.152,"end":977.529,"text":"這個真的對台灣的整體是經濟上整個這個除了導向的競爭力會接受到蠻大的挑戰因為我們目前我們是用合法合規的概念例如說像巴拉圭他們自己在聯合國裡面也有合法合規的這個ITMO的一個機制所以我們是優先跟這種制度建立比較完善的國家在談那未來當然是需要卡位佈局我們會積極來做"},{"start":978.59,"end":985.48,"text":"我是建議部長是不是可以立即來做一些討論檢討差不多在審預算的時候也可以給我們一些具體的一個作為跟方向我們大家再來做討論好不好好 謝謝主席好 謝謝劉建國委員"}]}},{"id":"168659","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168659","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5880b40c5769f1e3685672ae9832db69f826bc43123a8d29d978cd518bf594d00e2261dae0cf995ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳昭姿","委員發言時間":"09:09:44 - 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我們的時間我要短那你也請你簡短回答副主席 去年行政院核定了國軍戰鬥部隊加級的調整方案那請你看一下這個影片目前國軍加級制度當中第一類的戰鬥"},{"start":39.639,"end":44.361,"text":"部隊是加擠了有五千調到一萬二第二類是由三千調到七千那你可以看出來整個這個政府在國軍體系當中它是依據任務的性質還有它的風險程度來調整像第一線我們知道就是步兵、炮兵、裝甲那這是戰鬥單位那第二類就是化學工兵跟通訊這屬於支援單位那我想請教去年海巡也有做了一個加擠調整那你依據什麼標準就請你簡單的說明用什麼標準來這個做調整"},{"start":67.232,"end":74.613,"text":"跟委員報告我們的所有的加擠標準是按照國防部的相關的標準來支援好 按照國防部好 謝謝 謝謝副主委那如果是按照這個風險跟任務嘛它目的是怎樣我簡述了本次海巡的加擠的調整內容請您看一下這個圖表非常具體的問題我發現了喔那個你看看那個岸巡隊跟查緝隊完全沒有領到這個海巡部隊加擠喔目前的就是東南沙這個海這個海岸邊防機關是從三千提高到七千"},{"start":95.158,"end":108.974,"text":"同樣是東南沙離島單位的暗巡中隊是從五千提到一萬二然而暗巡隊這個查緝部隊是零同屬於第一線勤務卻出現零跟一萬二的這個巨大落差所以我請教副組委您認為暗巡隊的這個勤務是比較輕鬆"},{"start":112.478,"end":120.208,"text":"安全嗎?你認定他不屬於第一線嗎?因此不需要有這個加擠嗎?安巡隊可是24小時巡邏,輪班巡訪查緝人員要持槍,持槍執勤那進行查緝任務,如果這樣不算第一線,什麼叫做第一線呢?"},{"start":127.758,"end":141.897,"text":"跟委員報告我們這有區分兩個部分來說明第一個部分就是國軍的這個部分我們在少校以下連級的部分的所有單位支援的海巡跟戰鬥部隊加級是跟國防部一模一樣的部分"},{"start":142.458,"end":163.56,"text":"那另外在這個相當旅籍以上的這個 也就是上校以上的單位跟國防部的幕僚相同 都沒有指引相關的這些家計那另外在果關查緝隊的部分 這我想委員特別關心一下我覺得那個中遠他就是第一線嘛 他在第一線作戰嘛 對這第一線的部位我們現在領的是跟國防部一模一樣的"},{"start":164.605,"end":183.651,"text":"但是我剛剛指出來這個表很清楚啦那個他們做了個暗巡隊查緝隊我們稍微來看一下他的內容那我麻煩副主委你看一下右邊也是一樣東南沙進行這個巡防作業東南沙分屬案的暗巡中隊有一萬二加計但是同屬東南沙分屬的內勤兄弟就沒有他只有七萬七千塊錢對不起七千塊錢"},{"start":186.192,"end":214.246,"text":"那一樣都是一線前線作戰風險我也有差別在於這個跟國防您剛剛說按照國防的這個前線部隊的加級落差很大副主委所以我是建議要跟國防部一個標準啦在前線前線都是要一萬二啦而且東南沙這個分屬的弟兄因為更遠喔應該是要再考慮這個不管你叫偏遠啊外地域加級這個都是應該是比較妥當我可不可以請副主委您回去再做一次檢討好嗎"},{"start":216.368,"end":241.466,"text":"跟委員報告 第一個部分 剛剛關心的查緝隊部分查緝隊部分我們從104年就開始爭取但是人事總署一直到現在都沒有同意因為他認為查緝隊是上下班的 所以他沒有領但是在我們基層的暗巡隊的部分在包括這個安檢所 包括基隆學院站他是有領的 但是在隊部裡面辦公的這些幕僚他是沒有領的 國務部也是一樣"},{"start":241.766,"end":244.91,"text":"各位我收到這個查緝對君子同仁的陳情查緝對事實上情務包括什麼滲透部件安全情報蒐集查事走私偷渡犯罪偵辦攬船臨檢持槍出擊整個過程當中要長時間埋伏蒐證日夜顛倒甚至要面對犯罪對象"},{"start":262.31,"end":265.953,"text":"這個風險是很高耶那你依照現行的那個危險職務加級這個當中就是說你有認定有些危險加級那所謂要請問同樣執行高風險查緝任務的軍職查緝隊人員不僅沒有危險職務加級也沒有被納入這個海巡部隊加級啊"},{"start":280.063,"end":304.796,"text":"所以這樣難道不會影響到第一線弟兄的他們的士氣跟留任嗎你不能再檢討嗎跟委員報告我們這部分非常重視我們這一次就是針對這個部分調整部分我們現在整個檢整那管組委特別重視這個部分那已經有跟行政院溝通就是我們整個包括沒有辦法比照國防部那國防部認定不一樣或者是人事走出認為不一樣的部分我們一併一次檢討然後把它加到這一個家族"},{"start":309.138,"end":314.399,"text":"主委檢討 下面這張是其實是主委今天沒有出席 他自己講的就是海巡是用生命在守護國家安全啦那他就認為加薪是起碼的啦那就是代表就是說這個情況下我是希望說海巡隊跟查緝隊納入海巡部隊的這個加給至少要是七千元啦七千元以上啦那今天因為時間有限啦 主席不給我足夠時間我再問你 因為今天我們也看到我們的元首要出訪 那遇到了這些"},{"start":339.425,"end":344.309,"text":"總總的一些為難跟困境那我想請教如果台海衝突因為目前我們的海巡是比照所謂的第二海軍他按照北約模式國防預算是在這個地方那平常我們認為他是第二海軍但是遇到台海衝突的時候我想知道您覺得海巡的角色是什麼"},{"start":361.216,"end":377.328,"text":"跟委員報告我們在碰到台海這個沖土部分的時候那第一線的部分就是第一次在初期碰到情治碰到初期處理平時是第二海軍那現在呢遇到一些緊急狀況現在緊急狀況的時候第一時間一定是海軍去做處理"},{"start":378.429,"end":383.492,"text":"所以我們要給足夠的經費足夠的人力足夠的薪資待遇因為我們希望他隨時保持戰力對不對他們有需要這樣的性質嘛所以我希望今天主席已經站起來了我怕沒有講我已經省掉很多那個副主委我還是希望你今天把我談的東西如果需要說明我給你你一定要把我的這個我們的期待我們對弟兄的照顧我們對這個海巡的這個期待任務期待一定要去做一個檢討好嗎"},{"start":403.564,"end":407.871,"text":"根本包圍海巡組每一個弟兄都是我們自己的弟兄我們會全力幫他爭取他應有的權利好 謝謝程召之委員非常專業 非常完整"}]}},{"id":"168658","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168658","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5880b40c5769f161b1eddee815e6c110d96ca025fdcb7c29d978cd518bf5946013a5e6b2b6089b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葛如鈞","委員發言時間":"09:09:34 - 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韓國可以 荷蘭可以 菲律賓可以 越南可以為什麼台灣不可以問題就在於我國現行的電信管理法第36條對設置使用電信資源的公眾電信網路者"},{"start":126.588,"end":148.518,"text":"仍設有董事長國籍以及外國人持股比例的限制這使得外國通訊業者即使有意來台提供服務也很難直接進入台灣市場法規如果不調整台灣就算知道要提升通訊韌性多元衛星也會永遠被法規制度卡關本席要再次強調此次提出的修法版本"},{"start":150.001,"end":169.753,"text":"並非毫無根據的全面開放而是授權主管機關專案審查專案核准也就是說只有在主管機關綜合考量我國公眾電信網路安全電信資源使用以及市場發展國家安全以及公共利益以後確認沒有不利影響"},{"start":170.393,"end":199.62,"text":"才可以放寬現行限制這不是放棄把關而是讓政府在保守國家安全的前提之下替台灣爭取更多的選擇更多的備援更高的通訊韌性今天其他國家已經把門打開積極的引進新一代的衛星通訊技術台灣如果還在用過去的法規把國際衛星的多元服務擋在門外受損的將不會是特定公司而是我們中華民國的國家安全"},{"start":200.16,"end":221.572,"text":"所以這一次的修法是為了讓台灣真正的建立陸海空三萬一體的通訊韌性的架構讓我們在平時有更多的選擇在災時有更多的備援在非常時期能夠維持國家的運作我們所有的一切包含要了解前線的戰事要運用我們的國防的系統都需要網路"},{"start":222.532,"end":245.135,"text":"多元的衛星的通訊所以不只是陸海空甚至包含太空都應該在我們的範圍當中別的國家可以台灣沒有任何理由不行我們再次誠摯的呼籲朝野各個政黨行政部門與社會各界共同支持這一次的修法讓台灣的通訊安全通訊韌性真正跟得上時代也跟上國家安全的需要謝謝大家的支持 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168657","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168657","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5880b40c5769f1c598bfd0ad8f160810d96ca025fdcb7c29d978cd518bf5940c047472bec184315ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","委員發言時間":"09:06:01 - 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廖政文"},{"start":1945.43,"end":1971.313,"text":"其餘列席機關請參院名單不再逐一介紹並列入公報紀錄首先介紹在場的委員陳佩玉委員現在進行提案說明是不是請陳委員代理主席一下可以嗎"},{"start":1987.747,"end":1989.43,"text":"接下來有請提案委員羅廷偉委員說明謝謝"},{"start":1996.428,"end":2017.583,"text":"好 鉴于现行原子能法已逾50年未曾全面的修正期间随着核能及辐射相关的业务发展相关的业务均以制定专法加以规范例如游离辐射防护事项以自由现在的游离辐射防护法"},{"start":2018.368,"end":2031.666,"text":"放射性物質管理已經有放射性物料管理法核子反應器設施則另有核子反應器設施管制法規範"},{"start":2033.408,"end":2057.194,"text":"至此本法的性質已由原本直接管理轉為整體政策的原則之法律又原主管機關原子能委員會以改制名為核能安全委員會為配合現行的組織體制並明確的界定我國原子能政策之基本的方向與"},{"start":2058.234,"end":2081.137,"text":"未來的發展原則還理據這次的原子能法部分條文修正草案並將法律的名稱修正為原子能基本法以符合實際並強化法治體系的完整性以上好 謝謝提案委員說明"},{"start":2093.029,"end":2100.05,"text":"好 提案說明完畢本次的會議採一併報告綜合詢答現在進行報告請河安會陳明禎主委報告報告時間8分鐘主席"},{"start":2122.233,"end":2145.575,"text":"各位委員 女士先生 大家好今天很榮幸代表核能安全委員會並且同各單位主管向大院進行我國海域放射性物質監測執行現狀及未來應用作為專題報告在此感謝大院委員及對本會各項工作的支持及指教"},{"start":2146.616,"end":2174.056,"text":"首先就我国海域放射性物质监测执行现状及未来因应作为进行报告因应日本排放寒川废水河岸会要求外交部农业部海委会卫福部交通部及国客会共同组成跨部会因应平台定期开会推动各项应变作为并且通过源头掌握"},{"start":2175.526,"end":2202.076,"text":"扩散预报强化监测与资讯公开等四项应用措施建立我国海域放射性物质监控机制以下紧要说明各项措施推动成果在源头掌握部分河南会密切掌握国际原子能总署IAEA及日本政府就寒川废水的监控作为必于每次排放后主动对外发布及时资讯向民众说明"},{"start":2203.512,"end":2221.539,"text":"源头监控资讯及我国海域监测结果另外为掌握日本寒川废水排放情形河岸会自111年至114年期间共六次赴日本辅导实地了解排放设施与环境监测情形"},{"start":2223.871,"end":2243.293,"text":"在扩散预报部分河南会与气象署合作自112年8月24日开始排放寒川废水后立即启动7日海洋扩散预报并于每日更新寒川废水扩散情形截至目前日本已经执行19次"},{"start":2244.855,"end":2269.165,"text":"排放作业透过最新扩散预报结果显示寒川废水扩散影响范围仍以日本本州东部海域为主台湾周遭海域受影响极为轻微河岸会透过跨部会合作强化各项海域服饰监测一同执行海水与货物"},{"start":2270.492,"end":2299.787,"text":"日本输入水产品及生态系物种各类海域样本之检测分析包括穿射、石沽、鸟蹄、碘及探河种继续共计完成18000余件今年已规划分析4893件次分析结果均无辐射异常并于每周更新于跨部会辐射监测整合仪表板"},{"start":2303.567,"end":2328.122,"text":"另有关国内生物川检测能力国园院于112年成立首间生物川分析实验室提供每年500件之检测能量并于113年协助河岸会辐射监测中心及高雄市政府卫生局使国内扩展增至三间生物川分析实验室检测能量提升至每年2000件以上"},{"start":2329.216,"end":2348.248,"text":"1月4年3月,实验室均已取得卫福部食品检验机构认证,可满足各部会之检疫测试需求,并可提供业者或民众自行付费检测。为落实资讯工程,河湾会建立放射性物种海洋扩散海洋资讯平台。"},{"start":2349.505,"end":2368.404,"text":"中英文版本作为日本寒川废水培放相关资讯正确传递的窗口另设置一周扩散预报概括跨部会整合仪表板及国际资讯集市看快捷专区与图卡专区方便民众了解并确保资讯透明"},{"start":2370.233,"end":2385.849,"text":"考量日本寒酸废水排放将近排放30年河南会将整合跨部会资源集体争取建制国家海域放射性物质污染监控认证网计划透过持续监测"},{"start":2386.63,"end":2407.665,"text":"污染辨识追踪溯源冲击贫困之核心架构建制快速韧性的监控网络强化我国海域环境放射性物质污染之及时掌控能力进一步提升我国海洋防汇韧性河岸会作为河南安全主管机关秉持辐射专业坚持控制坚持"},{"start":2410.088,"end":2425.564,"text":"去监控日本排放含氧碳水对五国之影响并落实源头掌握强化监测扩散预报及咨询公开等措施确保我国海域及环境福祉安全维护民生与产业稳定发展"},{"start":2427.13,"end":2444.053,"text":"以下针对大院委员所提原子能法修正草案进行报告原子能法为原子能政策与安全管制的根本法治基础全文共九章三十四条内容含划总则主管机关全责"},{"start":2445.254,"end":2473.172,"text":"科研发展资源开发利用及对核子原料核燃料核子反应器与油离辐射防护制管制规范并延伸至奖励与专利制度损害赔偿机制及相关发售等对于各位委员所拟拒之原子能法部分条文修正草案和安徽净保尊重"},{"start":2474.69,"end":2484.657,"text":"感謝各位委員所提及對原子能發展的支持與關心以下請就各位委員提出說明進行各位不定指教"},{"start":2485.871,"end":2506.679,"text":"委員所提草案主要是因應行政院原子能委員會組織蓋證為核能安全委員會將原子能法所設機關名稱由原子能委員會修正條文為核能安全委員會行政院以依法公告原子能法所列署原子能委員會的全責事項"},{"start":2508.34,"end":2537.43,"text":"自112年9月27日起改由核能安全委员会管辖管协权已完备另外针对委员所提有关原子能主管机关层次修正确实有助于安全管制机关之职能但核能委员会属中央行政机关组织一环已予以行政院就所属机关之功能业务组织架构通盘检导考量"},{"start":2540.646,"end":2566.323,"text":"目前和安徽不同管制领域制定核子反应器设置管制法方设计物料管理法有力辐射防护法及核子事故紧急应变法作为现行管制依据将本于职责与专业持续完备相关法规及管制规范"},{"start":2567.642,"end":2589.719,"text":"保障民众健康与环境安全无虞并促进原子能之和平与永续利用以上报告不禁之处借请委员指教好谢谢陈主委报告其提出的书面报告机关代表除书面外有无口头补充"},{"start":2592.705,"end":2617.862,"text":"好 機關代表報告完畢相關書面資料請各位參閱並列入公報記錄由於議事錄之前已經宣讀完畢尚未確定首先現在先確定議事錄請問各位上次會議議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏好 沒有議事錄確定"},{"start":2623.508,"end":2645.843,"text":"現在進行巡打每位出席的委員質詢6分鐘必要時延長2分鐘列席的委員質詢時間是4分鐘發言登記截止時間為上午的10點半委員如有臨時提案請於上午10點半前提出並於本會委員羅廷偉質詢結束後即進行處理"},{"start":2649.56,"end":2667.906,"text":"處理提案時落提案的委員及連署委員均不在場毛躁軟膩是不予處理首先請登記第一位陳培鈺委員質詢好謝謝主席有請主委謝謝有請主委"},{"start":2677.261,"end":2692.742,"text":"好 主委早安我們來看一下這個第一張的投影片是我們看到一個新聞稿河岸會的新聞稿說台電已經在3月27號送出河山廠運轉執照的換照申請還有再運轉計畫文件"},{"start":2694.304,"end":2709.283,"text":"那河安会说你们在4月8号的时候已经确认台电送来的文件跟计划是完整的而且符合申请要件所以接下来河安会会正式启动实质审查作业以上的资讯是对的吗"},{"start":2710.373,"end":2725.478,"text":"是的好那我们接下来就来看了所谓再运转计划这件事情我认为大家会非常好奇一台电的计划内容是什么二何安会如何进行所谓的实质审查我们来看一下为什么要问这个问题呢来第一个"},{"start":2726.118,"end":2741.581,"text":"我想所有的事情來下一張河安是首要但是在上一次3月18號的時候河安會的匯報裡面到叫文來國民黨還有民眾黨很多委員一直問時辰一直問時辰要河安會回答那我要先說在還沒有看到實質的"},{"start":2742.082,"end":2767.035,"text":"报告之前就积极的要求明确的时程我认为这个非常不合理因为台电不是只是一个教功课的人河安会也不是一个简单改考卷的人在教了功课跟改了考卷之间我认为河安会必须要清楚的跟国人交代来下一张那之前台电自己也明确的说安全没有办法用时间去权衡所以当台电交出再运转计划"},{"start":2767.515,"end":2793.872,"text":"之后台电还要再提出自主安全计划所以接下来我想要给主委您一点时间向国人报告河安会未来要如何审查这个计划会邀请什么样的专家学者会有什么样的机制让国人安心来 主委请河安会依据河管法来实施这个审查详细的内容我请我们的高组长好 谢谢"},{"start":2795.404,"end":2819.94,"text":"好 跟委員說明喔 那國內的核電廠都已經運轉執照已經屆期了那依照新的核管法的規定就是如果核電廠要繼續運轉必須要提出申請那主要要提出兩份的文件那一份就是剛才委員所提到再運轉計畫那主要目的就是要將原本是處在處於階段要把金主恢復到運轉的狀態"},{"start":2821.229,"end":2842.261,"text":"那另外一份文件就是包括老化管理老化評估跟耐震安全等相關的技術報告那這部分就是台電公司對外所說的自主安全檢查那所有的文件都要通過核安衛的安全審查跟現場查證那才會確認符合法規後才會同意換發執照"},{"start":2843.717,"end":2873.058,"text":"那在這個過程中除了核安會的同仁審查之外核安會也會邀請外部的學者專家那主要就是包括有核工那機械土木結構以及移電等等跟電廠整個電廠運作息息相關的專業領域的學者專家來一起來審查相關的技術文件那所有的文件跟審查的意見都會公佈在核安會的網站"},{"start":2873.658,"end":2900.172,"text":"那也可以讓民眾可以了解整個的審查作業的情形以上說明好那但是因為台灣過往沒有這個經驗對吧所以我們這一次我認為面臨前所未有的挑戰是當然我相信剛剛處長您所說的不論是河工專家機械專家土木專家電廠運作專家還有河安會我們內部技術同仁會就技術文件來進行審核然後再加上現場查證"},{"start":2901.272,"end":2906.155,"text":"可是因为过往没有这个经验我想问处长你们现在心里面有没有任何的规划"},{"start":2932.974,"end":2953.451,"text":"來 處長謝謝你直接回答跟委員說明那確實現在國外的經驗很少包括國內的情境也跟國外也有一些差異事實上可以參考的案件事實上我們也去參考那整個參考國外的經驗也都是以個案來處理這些案件那會裡面確實會依照"},{"start":2955.433,"end":2982.873,"text":"法規跟安全跟國際的一些經驗來審慎的去評估跟縣長去確認台電公司的各項作業要符合法規跟安全的要求所以步驟都是按部就班循序漸進再推動現行你們可能會用到哪些法規你們的用法依據大概有哪些會裡面最原則就是核管法接著就有核子反應器設施運轉執照管理辦法"},{"start":2983.553,"end":3004.245,"text":"另外 核安會也參考國際的做法 我們也訂立再運轉計畫的審查導則所以核安會自己有訂立一個再運轉的這個法則對 審查導則好 審查法則 好 這樣看起來 與法是有所依據的那但是呢 到現場考察又是另外一個問題 對吧那預計第一次召開實質討論會議會是什麼時候 目前有規劃了嗎"},{"start":3008.691,"end":3031.485,"text":"我們現在進行實質審查那也請委員提出審查意見所以委員會先就文件來就提出意見沒錯然後第一次開會預計是什麼時候應該是在五月中下旬好五月中下旬那開完會多久會把相關的會議記錄公告上網還是要等全部都審查完全部都開會完才會公告上網"},{"start":3033.274,"end":3037.29,"text":"呃 跟委員說明喔 就是審查提出審查意見那"},{"start":3038.971,"end":3066.654,"text":"当中如果审查的意见经过委员确认可以接受的话这部分我们就会上网好那我们非常期待看到后续所有专家学者给予核安会还有给予台电的意见那如同刚刚你说的因为就国外来说就台湾来说我们相关的案例都太少了所以我想跟你分享另外一个我不确定我们之后核安会跟台电会不会做这个事情根据国际原子能风险评估组织INR他们有说明"},{"start":3067.535,"end":3089.817,"text":"在核電廠它其實有這個所謂浴缸曲線的問題就在最初的磨合期跟後續的磨損期相關的風險是比較高的所以有非常多事情需要通盤考慮但時間有限我就不再細說但是為了確保這些安全的顧慮可以好好的被照顧好好的被傾聽來下一張所以世界各國為了提升核能安全促進"},{"start":3091.078,"end":3118.612,"text":"經驗交流大家都有一個所謂的國際同儕審查那包含國際原子能總署還有歐洲核能安全監管機構組織都有類似的事情然後透過請世界各國的專家核能監管的機構研究單位甚至是各國的電力公司專家去到不同的國家進行審查進行經驗交流進行評估報告給予這個經驗的交流非常的重要我不確定後續台電需不需要進行國際"},{"start":3120.213,"end":3135.654,"text":"國際間的同儕審查來 何安惠 處長你直接說明好了就我們所知道台電公司會委託國際同儕的審查好 那這個會含在所謂的剛剛自主安全計畫裡頭嗎還是額外再一份報告提交給何安惠"},{"start":3136.974,"end":3162.679,"text":"他會先自主安全檢查完成之後就委託國際那我們也會檢視國際同儕的一些審查意見好所以看起來有我剛剛第一部分說的核安會內部的實質討論會議審查會議同時台電會同步進行國際同儕審查相關的報告也會出爐所以這兩件事情基本上是並行對嗎時間軸是一直往下走的並不是誰先等誰出來誰再往下工作對嗎"},{"start":3164.645,"end":3193.025,"text":"應該是台電公司自主安全檢查之後交給同儕那我們自己內部也會執行那個審查評估另外我們也會再去看同儕審查針對河山廠比如說台電公司提出來河山廠這部分的意見OK 這樣順序非常清楚了所以各自有進行中的工作但最後台電要再把這個國際同儕審查的報告再交給河安會 對嗎所以河安會再往下不管是考察或是"},{"start":3193.866,"end":3215.524,"text":"相关专家学者会议的时候会同步看到台电这个报告听起来目前为止我们很多在意的事情看起来河南会也都有掌握我觉得这个状况听起来是蛮好的但是我们直接跳到下一张再下一张好我们看到河南会在4月20说4月28早上10点钟要在屏东县恒春镇公所三楼礼堂举办"},{"start":3216.024,"end":3241.377,"text":"和安會審查核三廠運轉執照換發案的地方說明會上一次在3月18號的時候我就提醒和安會我認為這個說明會要擴大辦理希望能夠來的鄉親願意來的鄉親都盡量讓他們能夠參與我想知道目前你們在地方上宣傳的狀況或者是如何確保我們希望可以更多鄉親可以參加這件事情目前和安會做了哪些努力"},{"start":3243.807,"end":3266.518,"text":"請主委或是處長回答都可以跟我說明在上個禮拜我們包括我跟同仁有去恆春鎮跟滿洲鄉拜訪那個村里長跟鄉長鎮長等等那也說明河岸會辦理這個地方說明會的目的那也希望說透過鄉長跟地方的代表村里長的"},{"start":3268.278,"end":3284.366,"text":"說明幫我們轉資給村裡鄉親知道說會裡面會辦這個活動也邀請他們踴躍來參加會裡面的地方說明會跟意見表達你現在有辦法確保你覺得或是大概的掌握大概會有多少鄉親到現場來"},{"start":3286.755,"end":3301.897,"text":"有這個掌握嗎目前我們會積極去收集跟了解啦好我覺得啦聽起來還是有一點消極應該是說當然找村長里長鄉長這些都沒有問題可是我認為地方上"},{"start":3302.778,"end":3323.466,"text":"大家要如何去想像我身為一個可能不懂核電的人我也不懂你的法案我也不懂什麼叫運轉計畫我更不懂什麼國際審查對鄉親來說在意的就是安全的這件事情我如何在這個會議中可以得到我要的答案所以我認為我們應該要更積極的去跟地方的鄉親產生連結所以要拜託處長也要拜託主委拜託"},{"start":3324.286,"end":3348.605,"text":"用各式各樣的方法透過不同層級的民意代表把你們要辦說明會的訊息廣發下去甚至當天要有里長廣播非常的local但是我都覺得非常的重要這件事情拜託你們更加積極我們希望4月28號當天早上有盡可能的多人來參加然後讓你們收集意見讓你們傾聽民意確保最多的意見可以被你們"},{"start":3349.145,"end":3375.001,"text":"帶回來和安會作為一個重要的參考依據甚至我們也希望如果可以同步開放線上讓更多人可以參與討論同時發言好嗎線上的部分有可能嗎我想跟委員報告我們會有現場直播好 會有現場直播如果任何一個人想表達意見可以到我們和安會的官網上有個特別區域可以提出意見"},{"start":3375.982,"end":3392.856,"text":"我們會回答所有的問題好 那我們到時候也一起宣傳我認為把更多的聲音帶回來是重要最後 謝謝主席 來河安湖無虞 河沸有解 社會共識持續發展再生能源我認為也是河安會要跟我們大家一起努力的 好嗎好 謝謝主委 謝謝處長 謝謝主席好 謝謝主委"},{"start":3403.891,"end":3424.287,"text":"下一位諮詢的委員蔡順崇委員主席好有請主委有請主委"},{"start":3434.609,"end":3435.559,"text":"主委好委員好"},{"start":3437.833,"end":3463.549,"text":"請問主委目前因為日本以112年起排放含川沸水入海執行台灣沿岸還有離島還有鄰近海域及北太平洋的公海海域海水的一個川覆攝起樣分析海水覆攝的一個監測機制"},{"start":3465.45,"end":3481.978,"text":"那要请问这个机制是如何那真的能够确保我们的监测数据是具有高度的公信力吗是的这部分我请福士房副组张组长来回答这个问题"},{"start":3483.487,"end":3511.419,"text":"報告委員那我們這邊是執行的是跨部會的一個一個海域的環境監測所以是會分別請那個農委會還有海委會以及衛福部來幫我們在取樣那在實驗室的分析裡頭我們有偵測中心輻射偵測中心跟國運院那他們在這兩個的實驗室的一個分析都有都有達到那個那個TAF的一個"},{"start":3512.359,"end":3534.209,"text":"那個標準的一個認證那在這個監測的數據上我們也就是秉持著資訊公開的一個方式我們每週都會把即時的一個數據然後在我們的一個平台上來顯示然後會有一個那個偵測的一個儀表板讓這一些的資訊都是能夠第一時間來去做一個傳播"},{"start":3541.194,"end":3552.763,"text":"那針對日本的一個福島寒川匯水排放和安慰對未來的一個疫劑排放次數還有那個時程的掌握又如何來因應呢"},{"start":3553.664,"end":3572.961,"text":"那這部分我們就是持續的密切關注日本的在這個源頭排放的一些資訊那依照日本的目前的一個做法從2023到現在他們大概每個年他們的會計年初他們就會公布這一期就是未來一年他的一個排放計畫"},{"start":3574.022,"end":3593.059,"text":"那接下來的每批次的排放的一個前置的一些分析的作業我們也都會密切的掌握日本這邊公布的一個資訊那還有IAEA也都有去做國際的一個同儕我們也都有掌握那在這部分的一個資訊剛剛也是講我們都會去秉持資訊公開會發布那個那個一些"},{"start":3598.964,"end":3608.05,"text":"報導好可以好謝謝那政府呢從那個112年起要推動那個海域環境輻射的一個建設計畫那今年是這個計畫的最後一年對不對那請問一下那對於河安會對於116年到"},{"start":3617.015,"end":3625.118,"text":"119年又有一個建制國家海域放射性的一個物質污染監控的一個任性王那請問那這個計畫呢在跟之前的計畫有什麼不一樣首先那這是一個延續性的所以當然是過去我們執行的一個海域環境輻射監測"},{"start":3636.843,"end":3660.332,"text":"我們都會如期的來去執行那因為再來就是我們過去因應日本排放川水我們有建立了很多的一個技術那所以不管是在分析技術或者是海洋擴散的技術我們接下來在這個監控韌性網我們希望他把它做得更到位那包括我們過去是可能比較偏向這個這個日本到台灣的這個東部海岸"},{"start":3662.293,"end":3677.229,"text":"所以在這個監控任性網我們會著重在台灣海峽所以針對一些離島的一些一些監測的能力還有我們核種的分析的能力我們都會再透過這個監控任性網來去做一個進一步的一個提升再提升對"},{"start":3679.051,"end":3700.21,"text":"那再來我要請問一下主委目前中國大陸在沿岸建了非常多的一個河邊那這個台灣跟大陸的一個距離非常近最近不超過200公里所以這個對台灣來講影響"},{"start":3705.174,"end":3718.96,"text":"很大那我要請問主委就是說中國大陸目前在沿岸它有多少的電廠在運轉你有掌握嗎60座60座的核電在運轉那又有多少正在興建中35座"},{"start":3727.014,"end":3752.278,"text":"三十座三十五座三十五座那這個三十五座如果完成的話可能就是世界第一囉目前是看起來是那請問主委那對台灣周邊在海域的一個環境的影響你要如何確保台灣這個海域的一個輻射的安全我們已經做這方面有規劃了之前請張主任回答一下詳細的規劃"},{"start":3756.486,"end":3785.601,"text":"報告委員就是像剛剛我們也了解這個中國大陸沿岸有這一些的一個核電廠所以我們在監控韌性網這邊剛剛有講我們會著重是把這個台灣海峽的一些監控的能力給補強那在這部分我們也會針對離島會設置一些即時的一個監測站等於主動性的來掌握我們那個台灣海域在這一塊的一些的輻射的一個變化"},{"start":3786.101,"end":3800.572,"text":"那如果說這個核電剛好有天災或是有人為的一個失出發生意外那核安衛又要如何來掌握這個情況然後立刻來回應應呢有沒有這樣的一個危機的一個預備"},{"start":3802.639,"end":3828.826,"text":"那當然剛剛來講除了我們在因為天災最怕的就是一些地震或者是那個所以在大氣的部分因為首先會有一些大氣的一個偵測我們在全台灣有設置了63站那這都蠻高靈敏的所以一有變化的時候我們就會比較就會知道那當然資訊的一個一個查證一個搜尋也就是我們在這部分後之後我們就會來去做一個一個"},{"start":3830.186,"end":3834.671,"text":"因為大陸那邊的透明度我們比較擔心所以我們會比較質疑所以未來的風險我們一定是要關心的"},{"start":3845.163,"end":3866.478,"text":"那同時也要提醒我們主委還有我們所有的部會代表我們對中國大陸的一個核電廠我們不能視而不見然後我們必須要事先要做好完善的一個準備跟因應畢竟好或壞這個對七億還有我們台灣的一個海域都必須要承擔的"},{"start":3869.68,"end":3897.634,"text":"如何在現在兩岸的情勢非常的一個緊張那又要如何來確保我們有跟海峽兩岸核電安全合作協議要有在執行的一個過程如何是報告主委我們有跟大就是中國大陸有海峽兩岸核電安全合作協議那目前每季都會做一個跟對方做一個通聯測試確保通訊上的一個就是通暢以上"},{"start":3899.575,"end":3923.545,"text":"那我們也希望說能夠提醒就是我們必須要一直強化我們兩個海峽目前的一些河岸的安全我們一定要確定的來掌握那從113年到今年的4月以下來講都顯示通年測試的一個過程"},{"start":3925.866,"end":3940.331,"text":"是順利 那請問你要如何來確定在目前兩岸的緊張之下這個兩岸的應變通連是很暢通的是 報告人 到目前為止 每季的測試都是暢通的"},{"start":3943.25,"end":3965.5,"text":"希望是真的是這樣的一個掌握那最重要就是我們要確保這個測試的一個數據是具有高度的一個公信力那河岸應該要建立在自主的一個監測還有要先有預警有預警的這樣機制我們都要靠自己做好最好的準備以上謝謝委員"},{"start":3971.752,"end":3992.508,"text":"好謝謝我們蔡委員下一位質詢的委員柯思恩柯委員好謝謝莊委我們是不是請陳主委有請陳主委"},{"start":3999.465,"end":4023.141,"text":"主委好台电在上个月已经送交了他们这个换照申请案还有再运转的一个计划那我想何老闻你刚刚报告的已经完成了这个审查程序的一个审查现在这个是由这个专案审查团队进行实质的一个审查那我可不可以先请问一下这个专案审查团队是怎么样组成的"},{"start":4024.175,"end":4039.708,"text":"这个是我们邀请各界的专家学者共同组织和团队详细有请高组长没关系很简单的讲都是属于你们河岸的专家对不对长期跟你们合作的对对河电厂运作所以你的实质审查预计将要审查多久"},{"start":4041.708,"end":4068.724,"text":"是这审查主要还是要看台电公司对这就是我们现在比较担忧的问题因为外界评估你这个手段的审查应该是会有多达上千题吧所以说呢相当考验这个台电的回应速度跟这个技术处理的一个能力那我们根据最近的一个新闻来看就是韩国申请核电的研议来看大概审查作业耗时的三年都还没有重启那我们会不会拖了这么久就你的预估"},{"start":4069.868,"end":4082.365,"text":"跟委員說明那個是媒體講的上千題目前會裡面還在收集那個委員的意見因為那個韓國他們目前為止審查了三年都還沒有辦法所以我說請你預估會不會拖這麼久"},{"start":4084.182,"end":4099.444,"text":"应该还是要以电厂的各自的状况所以我们今天应该是找台电的过来问一下因为我们目前来说是分阶段来提送这个文件的一个审查那台电有没有告诉说下一个阶段的申请文件什么时候会再送出来"},{"start":4100.769,"end":4128.164,"text":"目前还没有都还没有特别去讲嘛因为根据合工的这个专家的评估你如果就是采取这个分阶段提交报告审查其实是可以加速这个电机组这个重启作业的一个时程而且将这个时间可能提前半年到一年左右那目前为止呢我们对于你们专家审查我们是深具信心的我说实在的因为过去来说你们其实长期在run这样的一个机制但是呢这个台电的这个行政效率我就觉得"},{"start":4128.624,"end":4138.256,"text":"永遠都需要因為為什麼我當然必須要有點質疑啊因為低放的目前為止到底處置的計畫我們還是削弱不明啊那我們高放的選址條件目前我也還看不到啊沒錯吧"},{"start":4140.325,"end":4170.065,"text":"是不是是啊第一方没有告诉我们高方也没有然后我们现在还要完全完全depend on台电的审查的时间所以我觉得这个部分里面我觉得何岸我目前可以提到了就是你们好好的督促希望能够赶快提出否则一个可能可以解决我们核能问题的部分就是因为受限于不断的在拖我觉得这个部分完全没完没了而且亲说你们4月下旬要到屏东恒春举办地方说明会"},{"start":4170.625,"end":4198.508,"text":"那現在已經4月22號地點確定了嗎地點時間確定了沒時間跟地點都確定時間什麼時候4月28號我還是要提醒喔因為你們上次有辦這個除疫的計畫但是呢也都是有誠意但是呢恆春地方的民眾是非常不滿嘛他們其實會抗議比如他們認為這個公民的參與度是不夠周延而且很多的相關的資訊不夠充分所以他們都是在網站裡面被動的去了解這個訊息所以呢"},{"start":4199.249,"end":4219.978,"text":"主委你们这次如果说在这次重启之前的这样的一个会议我还是希望能够跟居民好好来做一个沟通这是非常重要的可以吗好接下来我们再来问一下我想今天的原子能法的草案当中罗廷伟就是我们的召委有特别提到一个重点他是希望把河岸会升格为二级的原子能主管机关"},{"start":4220.658,"end":4224.599,"text":"那我想政府未來甚至是越來越這個著重有關於我們核電然後未來就可能發展新的核能然後這就是我們國家主要的核能那個監管一個單位主委你的單位非常的重要你知道嗎但是呢在總質詢的時候呢我也問過卓院長"},{"start":4237.643,"end":4255.601,"text":"目前是回应我说像目前来说二级机关的这个数量已经饱和了所以他说不太有可能但是呢我们看一下近十年来政府通过改组也成立了不少这个所谓的二级单位海洋委员会促转会速发部运动部只要行政委员愿意"},{"start":4256.201,"end":4285.961,"text":"他都有办法成立但是呢而且你看看我要请主委你们各位看一下河安会他真的是有他的必要性的各国的核能的这个管制的单位委会的组成都是由总统总理或是首相提名经过国会同意通过而且就隶属于总统府底下直接向总统报告这是别人来看看国这个河安的这样的一个地位跟角色那你不认为我们这个现在大家说你所主导的这个组织成绩太低吗主委"},{"start":4291.063,"end":4294.384,"text":"你們現在沒有辦法參與行政院更不是總統底下的三個委員會的機關代表成員"},{"start":4306.109,"end":4324.542,"text":"那我们现在在非核的政策之下面我们目前为止已经有个新的一个转机我觉得你们核安会好像就排除在我们的整个政府的这个施政体系之外你都不会为你们这个组感到委屈主委你2024年时候在我们赖总统这个身兼主席的时候你还是他办公室里面的特助"},{"start":4325.902,"end":4343.951,"text":"我suppose你跟他应该算是很熟难道你不能在这个地方去跟他做这样的回应吗这是你所主管这么多核安专家我们未来有这么多新的核能的发展别人都是隶属在这个所谓的总统府之下我们却是一个三级单位然后一问好像都没有办法让你参加你不觉得委屈吗主委"},{"start":4345.143,"end":4363.066,"text":"因为这涉及行政院组织法那就跟你讲组织法过去十年当中有太多只要行政院愿意看中你这个单位为我们的能源未来的整个新的一个发展它势必会在这个组织上面会做很多的调整可是你有上上反应过吗还是你就被动的接受"},{"start":4365.167,"end":4385.095,"text":"如果核安会有调整的话当然对于国际教育人才培育方面是有帮助的但是目前我们是只能举手岗位把事情做好你有没有跟院长提出来过如果没有的话我们可以透过我们这个修法来帮助你啊有机会的话说不定会啊"},{"start":4386.437,"end":4403.269,"text":"好 诸位我还是觉得这个是一个很严重的一个问题我虽然知道你不管在二级在三级你都会做好你的工作但是一个组织的提升不管它的经费 它的人力它各方面的配比我觉得你应该好好的重视这样的问题你绝对不会只是一个过度的"},{"start":4403.689,"end":4421.543,"text":"更何况我刚刚特别提出来你还是当过主席办公室里面的好不好里面的特助这层的关系是别人所没有的你更有这样的条件应该去跟他们好好来做一些反应不过你再说到这个核安会我还是要特别提到你看目前来说的话我们上个礼拜已经召开了总"},{"start":4421.803,"end":4421.843,"text":"是的"},{"start":4442.989,"end":4458.462,"text":"3.3亿那这一下的话你四年共变了28亿那我想说你主要是要降低国际输入依赖然后提高我们的自治的比重没错吧是的请问你如果这个钱给你们了你们可以把你们的自治比重提高多少"},{"start":4461.023,"end":4476.348,"text":"因為目前我們的合一的這個藥物八成以上大概都是依賴國外進口嘛那我既然給你們這個28億建制的設備藥物儲備等等那我們計畫目前可以提高幾成的自治比率我們主要先針對國人常用的九種關鍵的藥物"},{"start":4478.429,"end":4498.818,"text":"沒問題啊 那我說自治比例啊自治的比例就是這九種比方說Solin201所以你們可以提高自治比例從現在零到變九每個藥物的比例都不一樣Solin201我們希望能提高到七成到八成七成到八成某些藥物不是所有的當然 七成到八成這是你們KPM嘛"},{"start":4499.338,"end":4527.927,"text":"是是是所以我们给预章那个金分你们可以提高到七成到八成这个东西都要被检验你今天在这个地方讲我们都要特别提到所以你们我就是提到就是说我们既然可以让你们先行的动资但是虽然这只是第一年计划而已但是我们还是希望在我们选预算的时候我们还是希望你能够更明确的目标因为我们真的不希望什么东西都靠国外那既然你们可以告诉我们在药物的层面上面自治比例可以达到七八成包围不是所有药物我刚刚讲你说九种吗"},{"start":4528.607,"end":4556.312,"text":"九種關鍵藥物 其中最重要的酮二磷磷這個藥物可以達到九種的藥物 你們自知的等於可以其中一種不是所有的 每一種藥物都不一樣我們還是再詳細再跟委員一個書面的說明一定要給我書面說明 因為我上次問的時候你們卻沒有辦法給我告訴我哪個部分所以我們在審預算的時候 你說九種藥物每一種都不一樣每一種裡面可以達到計資的比例到底有多少這些都是我們要一一來看到的我們在審預算的時候一定會看到 好不好好 還是再一次"},{"start":4557.732,"end":4581.342,"text":"跟主委说这个人生最后一场的战役既然有这样的一个条件跟赖主席赖总统有这样的一个关系我还是觉得以面对国际能源趋势的问题我还是强烈认为我们的荷兰组织应该有条件可以往上来做一个更好的组织运作这是你的角色你的责任更是你的使命可以吗谢谢委员谢谢委员"},{"start":4589.551,"end":4601.87,"text":"好 下一位委員羅志祥委員有請陳明貞主委有請主委"},{"start":4610.802,"end":4629.795,"text":"主委好 有關重啟河山的作業全民都很關心那台電3月底送件包括換照申請再運轉計畫整體性老化評估實現老化分析報告相關中期安全分析報告運轉技術規範徵修內容"},{"start":4632.757,"end":4648.421,"text":"輻射相關議題查核評估報告耐震安全評估說明我想請問現在已經進入了實質審查階段嗎那台電的文件是一次送集嗎有沒有需要補件那什麼時候會進行實地的查查這點我請高組長跟委員詳細說明"},{"start":4651.85,"end":4676.064,"text":"跟委員說明剛才委員提到的都是法規要提交的文件那台電公司在3月27號先分階段先提出再運轉計畫那另外剛才其他的文件他後續才會提交出來那大概需要多久時間會把完整的文件提出來這個可能就要看台電公司現場執行的狀況所以看起來只提了你剛講再運轉計畫而已沒錯是"},{"start":4678.359,"end":4681.585,"text":"好 那請台電 真的這邊呼籲一下台電"},{"start":4683.089,"end":4705.9,"text":"要做就盡量走全那台電接下來的相關的一個狀況也請我們那個主管機關能夠多加掌握那接下來基本上再運轉計畫的整備目標就把河山包括組織人力設備從停機狀態要整備回去停機前的可發電狀態對不對那"},{"start":4709.802,"end":4719.712,"text":"再運轉計畫經核安會核定後那台電要執行並提出執行結果報告再由核安會審查那你們有沒有預定什麼時程會請台電來執行再運轉計畫嗎"},{"start":4728.509,"end":4745.101,"text":"現在會裡面已經進行實質審查委員也陸陸續續提出審查意見我們現在正在會診當然過程中台電公司也可以先針對再引轉計畫剛才提到一些人員訓練等等開始進行會裡面在過程中也會執行現場的查證"},{"start":4751.801,"end":4775.938,"text":"去確認說各項的作業有按照法規我問個問題啊實地查場覺得大概什麼時候會開始進行啊大概也是五月即使他現在已經開始做一些作業會裡面的同仁已經進行現場的查證了就是已經開始查場了嘛那我想請教啊當然電力就是國力啦我也坦白說"},{"start":4777.758,"end":4801.809,"text":"錯誤的能源政策要改正 熱見我一直都主張核電必須做我們的能源選項當然也要用最完整的程序跟嚴謹的標準來確保安全這是共識所以這一點需要核安會也要來把關但是國人也非常關注重啟的時程核電重啟過去國內外都有經驗"},{"start":4803.03,"end":4830.248,"text":"我剛剛看我們的柯志仁委員說這個韓國的核電廠要重啟三年都還重啟不了還沒完備所有的重啟的程序那我這邊也看到美國的也有核電廠那麼在2022年停止運轉2023年9月申請恢復運轉那2025年年底通過審查也花了兩年那只是通過審查而已"},{"start":4830.968,"end":4840.38,"text":"那我覺得 河安會有沒有預估一下說大體上我們的審查作業要花多少時間那兩年內有可能通過嗎 有結論嗎"},{"start":4843.744,"end":4869.473,"text":"跟委員說明了這個當中還是涉及到整個設備恢復狀況以及那個會裡面的審查意見整個答覆情形那國外的情形也是確實是可以當作我們的參考但是確實那個案例不多所以都是以個案來處理包括所以那個案例不多什麼意思是兩年以上的多三年以上的多還是兩年以上的少三年以下的少"},{"start":4869.813,"end":4895.328,"text":"跟委員說明剛才委員提到的2022年是Panacea那美國機組他也是進到處理的階段要申請恢復那目前為止還是在雖然去年在審查通過目前機組還在做一個準備作業當中還是有一些文件的品質現場設備要恢復等等所以其實真的要重新再運轉也還看不到其成嘛對不對以這個電廠來說"},{"start":4897.712,"end":4926.658,"text":"還是要看現場整個的設備恢復進行其實你的回答跟我想要講的是相同的啦就你可以看到今天說要停一個核電廠很容易啦總統說停就停啦但是你今天要讓它再恢復那就是無比的一個困難那很多的程序都要去做慢慢長路都要去進行"},{"start":4927.591,"end":4952.23,"text":"那所以到現在為止你也看到我也覺得河岸會你也為難啦時程你也答不出來那當然也不完全是因為你的因素跟台電也有關係嘛對不對台電整個作業整備的過程當中他到底像剛剛前面問的資料我們按照法規該提的資料其實台電好像也沒完目前為止沒有完全提出來嘛對不對那這個就是我們可以看到就是說"},{"start":4953.271,"end":4975.452,"text":"任何政策你今天你要極性的去把它停掉是容易的但是你真的要再恢復所有人就難上家了那我舉個例子我其實過去這10年來真的是像狗狗飛火車一樣我覺得不斷告訴大家所謂的非核家園"},{"start":4977.648,"end":5004.607,"text":"三個預言嘛 電力必缺嘛 電價必漲嘛 空污必增嘛我想請問我們主委 這三個預言有沒有多應驗確實核電有助於電價的穩定我們當時民進黨蔡英文總統說十年不大漲電價那也漲得一塌糊塗啊 所以一定會漲電價嘛"},{"start":5005.888,"end":5021.991,"text":"那第二個電力一定會缺不電力不缺請問幹嘛我們核電幹嘛重啟啊對不對電力也是缺嘛就至少無法因應未來尤其像AI時代那種長期的電力的承載嘛沒錯吧主委是的對啊"},{"start":5022.574,"end":5047.332,"text":"然後再來空污增因為你核電拿掉我們現在火力發電的比重就大幅增加嘛因為綠電跟不上所謂的核電被拿掉的比重那就會要大幅依賴火力發電更何況電力還在正成長所以回頭又講一件事就是說今天其實是滿遺憾站在這個地方啦過去謝榮介跟我我們這些人狗飛火車十年"},{"start":5048.827,"end":5077.654,"text":"終於廢到火車好像終於看到懸崖在前面願意改個道轉個彎那不管怎麼樣啦就是亡羊補牢啦時有未晚那也希望我們現在時程上可以看到還是一樣遙遙無期啊就政府已經承認政策是有問題的但是你就知道轉彎有多快像之前還問光合共人才斷層也是個問題不錯沒事沒錯吧對不對對啊所以"},{"start":5078.464,"end":5100.237,"text":"核電廠的整個建設跟核能的一個政策的一個發展的過程當中其實國家是花了非常久的時間 將近半世紀的時間累積出成熟的技術 成熟的人才 然後成熟的能源供應但只因為今天一個政治口號 所有東西打破重來"},{"start":5102.2,"end":5111.227,"text":"從來可以啦 請這個安全要顧到然後腳步也要加快以上 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝羅志強委員下一屆謝榮介委員"},{"start":5137.33,"end":5155.715,"text":"主席我請譚主委好,有請陳主委主委教授在你的報告裡面這個日本的白紅的婦人污染的海水那麼對著這個川跟石"},{"start":5165.68,"end":5178.43,"text":"我們是只監控川而已嗎?我們監控的還不止是川而已國際現在是針對川和石比較有一個指標性的訴苦我們請副社中心主任跟委員好委員好這個目前IAA裡面是...還沒有說有多少的報告嗎?有嗎?"},{"start":5196.109,"end":5208.376,"text":"目前舊日本排放的水的檢測結果,目前都沒有異常那麼我們國對這個海水的感受,你是如何作為"},{"start":5214.551,"end":5229.461,"text":"跟我們報告,我們目前來講的話有跟農業部、海巡署、水事署等等的單位我們有進行台灣海域的監測,總共有107個點位"},{"start":5231.903,"end":5252.408,"text":"那分不同的頻度,比如說每期、每半年、每年去取樣取樣的河種如同委員剛講,我們主要監控河種在水的部分是以春跟澀為主但是我們也有做其他河種的監測,比如說所以一把空氣的點是以固定的座標去出用就對了對,那個高木鉗已經出用幾次了"},{"start":5258.681,"end":5283.134,"text":"呃,我們就剛剛講的就是我們每一劑每一劑會取樣,每半天會取樣所以出院有幾次啊?哇,那個大約啦,沒關係你跟我說大約沒關係,我接受一百零七,大概一年大概會有五百多次以上五百幾次啊吼,那麼上,咱主機簽簽嗎?對"},{"start":5288.056,"end":5295.948,"text":"送的核種都是送到偵測中心或者歸院去檢測目前都完全沒有檢出異苗沒有發現異苗那麼幾回有檢對"},{"start":5301.448,"end":5324.315,"text":"海洋所捕獲的魚類、魚體來做檢測嗎?有,我們漁業署有提供我們這個海生物來進行檢測那同樣的海生物我們也是有川啊、澀啊這些河種我們都有進行檢測目前也都沒有發現異常情形"},{"start":5326.914,"end":5348.509,"text":"這是對臺灣人的健康,因為依照冬季時宜來發表日本的白鳳,來到臺灣海岸的污染應該差不多在三年左右所以今年大概就是有可能會發生到海岸的污染"},{"start":5351.232,"end":5356.217,"text":"但是以市長來說,當然是這樣報告,所以今年就變成要,你們有想要對蔡英文的出手嗎?有這個計劃嗎?"},{"start":5368.181,"end":5394.799,"text":"報告委員那就是盧孔委員講的我們在110年日本還沒排放的時候我們又去做一些潛勢分析大概三四年對台灣開始就是會影響那其實在日本在112年開始排放的時候我們跟氣象署中央氣象署我知道嘛就是說依照國際所有的認定就是說那的應用應該是今年嘛會來到我們台灣的海淹嘛"},{"start":5395.66,"end":5400.087,"text":"所以我不是說你今年會增加蔡英文的出手數"},{"start":5401.464,"end":5429.522,"text":"目前是他們大概我們看的一個追蹤是川的濃度大概還在關島附近距離台灣一千七百公里所以在我們一百一十五年的一個監測還是會維持跟一百一十四年一樣大概每年都會有快五千件的一個檢測所以我們感情我們的誤測就是說今年還沒達到我們台灣的海域所以可能每年才會高"},{"start":5430.562,"end":5452.239,"text":"這就是,所以你有錢每年什麼時候這個污染會來到我們台灣的海洋目前我們都還是持續追蹤啊,然後還是講的這個海洋可是你怎麼有錢嘛,所以你不可以說我今年不用整個每年要整個嗎這對台灣人來說,我們對他們實在重重的健康和婦人污染大家都很重視嘛,是不是不然你今天報告要做什麼?是不是這樣?"},{"start":5458.817,"end":5476.025,"text":"你有機會,你現在的企業企業企業是這個穿戴式那麼以時間來算,今年你的退出,它不會達到台灣的海約如果這樣,明年什麼時候,大約什麼時候,會來到我們台灣的海約裡面"},{"start":5480.946,"end":5504.162,"text":"這部分我們都定期追蹤我們大概固定都是八、九月會開一個跨部會的一個討論會因為畢竟這個還是要分析的我們才可以比較有精準的一個預測那這樣我們都是滾動的把擴散的一個預測的結果我們一定反映在明年的一個監測計畫裡所以今年你剛才給我的答案就是說今年要到關德附近"},{"start":5509.925,"end":5525.571,"text":"這樣你把今年到關德附近 九年到什麼地方準年到什麼地方 這三天來 你所管轄的數據那五年到什麼地方 或者是說五年到台灣的時候是什麼時間這個報告可以上網分析嗎可以的請你提供 來主委 我請教你喔"},{"start":5537.455,"end":5539.78,"text":"讓人家二想三想重啟,我問過你,事實上你沒辦法說,我請問你,你不便在這裡說,因為怎樣?"},{"start":5549.301,"end":5556.887,"text":"這個意識形態當的人,繼續擁護婦人的人,他沒得到跟沒得到,臨環精神也沒得到跟沒得到,這個選擇利益那麼要重新選擇婦人來做為我們國的發展臨環基因,跟選擇完全隔離,不易採用"},{"start":5570.238,"end":5590.185,"text":"這是兩種的選擇那麼你普遍在這裏表達亞裔是要安慰某一些特定的人卻是說不想傷害到他們的感情我們是可以提倡的那麼你有衝著主觀尖閣國家聯盟政策的朱雄的總統跟行政議長來提出"},{"start":5593.186,"end":5608.257,"text":"這個施政,讓人二手三手,重啟這個決定大會,可以多久的施政,可以完成你日本人都不說,但是你也把總統跟行政一定要報過過嗎?還是他們罵沒有?罵沒有?"},{"start":5614.093,"end":5633.768,"text":"沒有 院長跟總統都沒有問過我們來...他不要問過你啊 這樣拼命的嘛不是啊 要出一支水 還要重啟核能還要有水無芯 火辣給小雞肉時間上不是在核安會控制是裁定會決定這個..."},{"start":5636.766,"end":5649.016,"text":"所以他沒有去掌握我們台灣經濟、人文這麼緊張、國際這麼緊張,結果我們想要重啟輔營的時候,只出一句話說要重啟核能,結果他沒有去掌握我們,這是很離譜的!所以你看到他沒有去掌握我們就沒有辦法決定時辰,OK?你看到他都沒有去掌握我們喔!"},{"start":5664.669,"end":5675.059,"text":"他不是問我,他沒有直接問這些問題了,他是說當然會關心,但是重點是要核安能夠確保你也為了要拿便宜,拿一個理由出來說,你心中本身大寶"},{"start":5684.648,"end":5696.217,"text":"他有跟你關心過 或是有跟你問過 讓你中間差不多多久的時間可以看得到效果 或是多久的時間可以中心運轉都不敢跟你問喔他有 我有說明這些問題 我沒辦法給他一個確定的時間表是 你沒有辦法給他時間表確定的時間表因為他有問你 因素會影響你剛才是跟我說他都不跟你問喔"},{"start":5714.398,"end":5730.445,"text":"你講得很清楚,他當然會關心,但是他沒有要求我什麼時候要完成審查他沒有要求你,他說他有關心你,你現在還說他有關心嗎?他當然會關心啊所以總統是很擔心我們的靈魂不捲嘛所以他有關心你,是你沒有給他答案嗎?是不是這樣?"},{"start":5742.138,"end":5758.565,"text":"我核安會立場是沒有辦法給他確定可以運轉的時間,因為很多因素影響人生到底總統剛才是有關心或沒有關心,有跟你說謊或沒有跟你說謊他有關心,但我沒有辦法回答時間有關心或沒有問,沒有問還可以關心真厲害,真厲害"},{"start":5766.816,"end":5778.304,"text":"你也吃夠硬,你小到厲害你剛才把這些問題都從包包座位,紅骨包刀啊又沒有答案,又沒有第三人,又貼總統餅乾不錯,好謝謝謝委員"},{"start":5797.657,"end":5808.412,"text":"我們下一位委員 郭一群郭委員好 謝謝主席 呃 有請主委有請主委"},{"start":5815.86,"end":5834.621,"text":"主委早安我要來關心同時我也要來提問關心跟提問我今天都會進行好那我想這個台電已經在三月底送出這個核三廠在運轉的一個計畫但是三大的前提這個是最基本的條件"},{"start":5835.242,"end":5858.007,"text":"包含我們的安全要無虞那核廢要有解那另外就是社會的共識這三大前提大家都要兼顧才能夠談這個重啟的部分所以這個確切的時間表當然其實也不能急啦但是我想要問的就是先講一個很簡單的一個問題核三如果要重啟我們的人員到底人力夠不夠"},{"start":5858.507,"end":5873.185,"text":"再來專不專業的這樣子的一個問題那我想核電廠這個不是按開關繼續把它開下去其實就可以了那重啟內課是非常重要的一個關鍵但現在外界其實擔心除了設備以外"},{"start":5873.666,"end":5895.796,"text":"那麼最重要的是人的部分我為什麼要先提人的部分因為我們知道這個合工人才的流失甚至我們現在可能會找這個退休的人員回來支援那我想問的就是現在我們的操作員的考試是不是還是聚焦在所謂的正常運轉的一個範圍當中那如果說重啟是一個高風險的一個狀態考題會不會也因為這樣子的一個這一段的設計"},{"start":5901.538,"end":5920.824,"text":"來做一些不同的一個內容的更改那第二個就是退休回任真的安全嗎那我想人才的專業度也要納入這個審查非常重要的一個項目那如果真的離開了這所謂的一線那多年的這樣子的一個這個人力回到"},{"start":5922.423,"end":5947.356,"text":"現場要來支援他會不會因為反應的速度不夠或者是對於所謂的系統的熟不熟悉這個其實也是要納入考量的一個重點再來第三點我覺得比較重要的是如果專業人力的不足而沒有達標那我想何安慧能不能夠直接說不能重啟還是我們會降低所謂的審查的一個門檻這個部分請主委回答"},{"start":5948.556,"end":5975.18,"text":"人力資源配備確實是河岸的選擇一個重要的標準這部分詳細的問題我想請高組長回答好跟委員說明那有關於運轉能源考試這一部分那會裡面本身就有一套的考試機制由河岸會的自己的資深同仁來擔任那考試的題目當然依照法規都會包括正常運轉操作跟異常的操作"},{"start":5975.66,"end":5989.879,"text":"那異常操作就會包括剛才委員所提到的在運轉期間可能會遇到一些問題都會納入考試的題目裡面所以考試的內容應該會什麼時候再設計包括正常跟異常的狀況好"},{"start":5991.221,"end":6012.614,"text":"那另外就是對於所謂的這個離開一線多年的這樣子的一個人喔這個再回來那我想這個專業度很重要我剛剛講這個部分是不是也放在所謂的專業的審查的一個範圍當中而且我們是用同樣的一個標準而不是因為說他們已經離開了現場多年然後回來之後我的考試的這個分數或者是我的標準降低會這樣嗎不會"},{"start":6013.915,"end":6042.005,"text":"因為有關於退離的人員再回來去支援電廠這部分也是屬於台電公司的包商管理這一環那這部分本來就是台電公司要依照品保的程序去進行包商的資格管控以及作業程序的品質的掌握那會裡面河南會也會透過現場視察去查證台電公司整個作業包括包商這一部分的作業品質"},{"start":6043.086,"end":6057.534,"text":"那如果專業人力不足我剛剛有提到第三點如果專業人力的不足那沒有達標那這個部分我們要怎麼辦還有沒有更多的一個新的一個機制好 跟委員說明再來"},{"start":6058.654,"end":6073.925,"text":"核安會的再運轉計畫裡面就已經明確規定了就是除了法規規定以及運轉跟維護人員的配置啊訓練啊以及證照等等都有一些明確的規定要求台電公司要將機組恢復到運轉的狀態這部分都有規定去"},{"start":6077.648,"end":6094.846,"text":"到時候就會去檢視所以人力的標準會公開會公開然後再來就是也要有紅線那如果真的不達標是不是就考慮會駁回在運轉當然法規規定的一些運轉法規規定的能力這部分一定要達成的好"},{"start":6095.948,"end":6118.948,"text":"這個是針對人力的部分那麼第二個我要談的這個主題其實現在大家都在談這個小型的這個SMR那我想這個國內我們的學術其實也正啟動跟國外的一個交流但是我還是要提醒這個技術是可以討論但是風險不能等到發生才研究技術可以討論風險不能等到發生才研究那我想這個我們自己的"},{"start":6119.448,"end":6135.213,"text":"研究還是我們目前是有自己的一個整個所有的研究的這樣子的一個計畫還是說我們都是聽國外的廠商或者是國外的這個他們的一些專業的一個數據那我們政府手上自己有沒有所謂的完整的一個風險的一個數據這是第一個問題第二個問題就是核廢的種類會不會不一樣"},{"start":6139.794,"end":6151.827,"text":"核肺的種類會不一樣因為包含SMR的核肺種類還有它的壽命還有它的儲存方式是不是跟我們目前所認知的其實是還是有一些就是專業性上的一個不同這是第二個問題那現在的法律能不能夠支撐"},{"start":6155.33,"end":6172.039,"text":"我所謂的現行的一個制度其實我們是為了所謂的這個就合點來設計的那麼將來如果比方說這個SMR的部分我們未來是不是可以用得上那我想要做研究還要修制度但是我們還是要談安全這個問題那這個部分是不是請教主委"},{"start":6174.043,"end":6199.215,"text":"小新模組化反應器 SMR 行電上它的風險是比較低的在理論上比傳統核電廠低好幾個數量級而且監管職責還有研究的一些計畫我想國務院院長高院長來跟委員回答這部分好 包含我剛剛有提到的就是 SMR 它的壽命還有它的核廢是不是有些不同它的標準"},{"start":6200.553,"end":6216.568,"text":"包委,SMR它的壽命如果是看哪一種形式,它有分傳統清水式跟核一二相產類似的另外非清水式的像熔岩式反應器還有這個Multisol Reactor還有這個"},{"start":6218.75,"end":6233.66,"text":"快終止的反應器這種的壽命因為是比較新的使用所以它的壽命就現在還在測試階段要等五年以後比較可以明確那對於這個核廢料的"},{"start":6235.397,"end":6254.751,"text":"處理就是基本上傳統的核廢料清水式反應器SMR跟我們大型的差不多但是有三種像Modern Solar Reactor還有這個Nature另外三種反應器它可以大幅減少七成以上的傳統跟傳統核廢料可以減少七成以下的核廢器物"},{"start":6255.191,"end":6272.168,"text":"好 我想這個部分其實為什麼我今天會特別的提出來因為其實大家對於SMR還是有一些期待但是我們不能只講好處然後不談風險這是我想要點出的一個問題好 最後一點時間我想這個合一的藥品它其實不是存量的問題那我想這個是時間的問題"},{"start":6273.649,"end":6290.557,"text":"那我要談的是這個國家藥物的韌性那我想很多人其實忽略了一件事情就是合一的藥品其實它是不能囤也就是因為它的效果會隨著時間而衰退像大家現在都在聚焦所謂的TC99M它的半衰期其實只有6個小時"},{"start":6291.417,"end":6307.683,"text":"那它是用在哪裡呢它是用在比方說像甲狀腺啦或骨骼啦或者是腦部的一些檢查喔那就算有其實它有時間的一個半衰期但是這個問題不只是有沒有而是來不來得及喔那這個部分其實我們在整個所有的"},{"start":6308.143,"end":6329.769,"text":"大家在聚焦這個部分那我們其他的一些合一的需求該怎麼辦那另外呢我們的產能到底夠不夠還是我們這一半是仰賴進口那另外就是說沒有原料但是其實試劑也很重要所謂的試劑沒有KIDS這些醫院根本用不了那這個部分我們是不是簡短的回答一下是那個產能的部分"},{"start":6330.909,"end":6348.925,"text":"產能不會像TC99半衰期是只有6小時但是我們有一個KIDS可以來發生器可以來產生這個所以就是透過這個計畫雖然是TC99所以現在還在計畫階段還是說我們自己已經開始有國內自主的一個產能"},{"start":6349.866,"end":6373.564,"text":"這個產能目前是還是靠進口沒有錯但是我們還有其他的新機梗塞的鑄罐劑像剛剛所說的索連201現在供應量是4成我們70MV明年上來以後可以到7成到8成那加67這個半衰期78小時這個達到目前是百分之百將來也應該是百分之百這個另外KIDSKIDS的供應這個"},{"start":6376.124,"end":6402.536,"text":"因為不同跟不同的試劑來做一個熬合所以它的班差距比較短所以必須為什麼要藥物韌性必須在醫院裡面立即做標記標記以後不能長期仰賴國外進口所以要透過這樣一個四年的藥物韌性計畫來提高一個藥物韌性的一個自主跟國內尤其在疫情或者特殊的狀況戰爭時候能夠有儲備足夠的核藥物"},{"start":6405.577,"end":6432.976,"text":"戰備的庫存的一個標準這個也一定要就是準備好這個不管是中期或者是短期甚至我們的長期那最重要的是有原料沒有用其實四季也很重要我們也鼓勵我們自己國內有這樣子的一個生產的一個量能存在好那我想今天這個不管是核電也好SMR也好或者是我們講的這個合一的藥物其實本質都是同一件事情安全不能打折那準備不能做半套然後再來我們的資訊一定要公開好 謝謝"},{"start":6437.778,"end":6454.287,"text":"謝謝國務卿委員下一位陳秀寶委員謝主席請和安會陳主委陳主委"},{"start":6462.233,"end":6488.641,"text":"主委好我也好首先想先請教主委關於我們核能發電未來走向的相關的議題目前我們在新聞上看到日本首相高市長苗在去年他就提出未來他們重點投資17個戰略領域其中是包括了合龍河而且他們也已經很明確的有一個具體的時間表"},{"start":6490.021,"end":6511.048,"text":"他們預估在2030年前要證實核融核發電的可能性目前日本也已經進行超過20萬次相關的實驗我想請教主委 核安會目前有沒有在進行相關核融核的基礎研究這方面國研院有 已經開始做了 詳細請國研院回答"},{"start":6515.179,"end":6540.139,"text":"國人院在兩年前三年前就已經成立FOST就是台灣的第一個托克馬克的荷龍河的一個電漿研究的一個專制那去年年底已經完成初步的建置要經過一年的測試就能夠達到一個做科學研究的一個設施這是國內百分之"},{"start":6540.879,"end":6561.249,"text":"對於核融核相關研究的基礎設計我們是已經有在做了那我想請教主委您這邊是不是也會建議行政院我們參考日本因為這個核融核發電它沒有鈾廢料沒有核廢料的問題而受到國際間的青睞那我們會不會將核融核技術也列入我們重點發展的技術"},{"start":6562.35,"end":6577.245,"text":"報告委員 事實上日本他是寫2030年代他的意思是2030的末期 接近2040可是我們看最近德國宣稱他預估是2060 合龍河才有機會有機會而已 包括英國"},{"start":6582.871,"end":6605.719,"text":"國家的一個研究機構也是認為要205年以後但是日本這個目前我們由科學的來看它有幾個關卡第一個是它的材料需要一億度的高溫要克服這個工程上非常難以實踐第二個它的理論從60年來就是對托克馬克這一型的理論物理的理論都沒辦法有突破所以整個這兩個大卡關"},{"start":6607.7,"end":6631.92,"text":"使得全球的核融合恐怕在205年前難以達到能夠提供低度穩定的長期穩定那其實由您的回答我們也可以了解到世界各國其實對核融合都非常的重視如同剛才本席說的因為它沒有誘廢掉核廢掉的問題所以世界各國都競相的想要來突破這個技術那我國是不是也會把它列為我們重點發展的"},{"start":6633.841,"end":6660.477,"text":"這個部分我想我們主要是培訓合龍河方面尤其電槍物理方面這個Plasma的人才因為世界上以歐洲的這個TIER就是合龍河的專制他投入了已經兩兆元但是發電還是遙遙無期要等2015年才有2055年才有所以我們現在專注在人才的培育是人才培育還有一些這個基本設施的維護跟國際"},{"start":6661.537,"end":6670.022,"text":"研究的話能夠接軌萬一哪一天有機會能夠三轉我們又能夠趕上這個所以我們雖然說我們在這邊的投入並沒有像國際間那麼快速或者那麼多但是其實我們還是有在專注在這一塊我們也沒有就是放鬆這個腳步啦好那我想請教那國研委員有說日前有說我們已經觸碰盤底的三種SMR的技術"},{"start":6688.132,"end":6709.987,"text":"那確認SMR商用商品這個商轉沒有問題之後呢國外授權了我們國內最快在2035年可以發出第一度的SMR的電力那所以說以這個SMR跟合融合這個部分呢我們是有並行的在做只是說現在SMR的進展是比較快也比較明顯是嗎"},{"start":6710.928,"end":6724.973,"text":"是SMR是核分裂所以核分裂在於1940年代就成功所以在技術上技術上完全可行比較容易五年以後應該就有這三種跟傳統的都會有商用反應器出來好 謝謝"},{"start":6726.894,"end":6752.346,"text":"那這邊我還是要提醒核安會因為國際間現在認為說既然他們認為核龍核是有可以發展的就是是可行性高的那我們還是要關注國際的趨勢雖然說我們現在基礎的有建制了但是後面的腳步我們也不能落後因為我們還是在我們自己的國家之內我們要去評估怎樣的發電方式對我們國家是最有利的好那接下來我想請教"},{"start":6754.067,"end":6770.935,"text":"我們在核能設施處理及核災應變的處置過程之中機器人成為不可或缺的重要工具但是目前我們這個機器人還是有賴有線連接的操作模式而且很容易受到現場輻射的影響對這些相關的內部的半導體元件會造成嚴重的損壞那電燃也可能因為有纏繞或斷裂這種問題"},{"start":6778.899,"end":6803.656,"text":"那日本呢他們有投入研發具這個高度抗輻射能力的這個Wi-Fi的接收晶片而且目前他們已經研發成功了在核事故這個核能的處理現場這個無線操作會帶來一個很大的進展那主委我想請教何安慧目前我們有沒有在進行相關就是提升晶片抗輻射能力的這個相關的研究誰可以回答這個問題"},{"start":6807.297,"end":6829.359,"text":"報告委員我們現在在我們的科研計畫裡面我們有這個像用在太空抗輻射的晶片的相關研究我們是有的那是太空抗輻射的這個部分那對於我剛提到的這個在核設施核在應變的相關的機器的應用我們也同樣有這樣的技術在並行研究嗎"},{"start":6830.2,"end":6842.161,"text":"是,我們在Mutual Fund就是我們跟國科會的一個聯合的一個科學研究計畫裡面我們有針對這個機器人我想這個委員提的非常好"},{"start":6844.171,"end":6860.825,"text":"那邊的機器人研究跟我們這邊抗輻射晶片的機器人的研究是不是可以把它combine起來像是日本的這些我們在核災是不是可以應用我想這在未來我們也會投入這一塊來因為其實就像您剛剛回答的"},{"start":6861.946,"end":6887.752,"text":"那如果它是Each同工之妙就是說我們有這樣子的設施那其實可以用在不管是我們太空的產業或是在我們相關的核能設備因為我們現在也有核電廠正在處理的階段那如果有這樣子的抗輻射機器人可以投入現場我想對於相關人員的這些風險會更低更安全"},{"start":6888.692,"end":6917.208,"text":"你們有沒有預計可以什麼時候來投入相關的這樣的研製這部分非常謝謝委員的提點那是不是容我們在整個完整的仔細研究因為像現在我們的輻射應變方面那這個部分我希望何安慧你們就有這一點就是這個抗輻射機器實際運用的時程你們來做一個規劃那如果有進展的時候請你將一份報告給我辦公室可以嗎"},{"start":6918.368,"end":6945.07,"text":"是 沒問題好那接下來我想要來請教主委關於合工人才的狀況因為剛才我們講不管是合融合的部分SMR的部分還是剛才講這個抗輻射機器人這個研究那這些都需要相關的人才合工人才那我想沒有這些基本的合工人才我們未來相關的研究都會受到延擋我想主委您也是認同這樣子的是的"},{"start":6945.39,"end":6972.876,"text":"那在上次的業務報告的時候有很多委員關心我國合工人才培養的問題那再加上說國際間像現在剛剛提到的各種發電的技術方式都有新的進展那我們如果要參與或了解相關國際的進度要跟著上腳步我們在合工合能相關的人才都是非常的必要非常的重要我想請教主委我們有沒有相關的計畫或合作的方式來進一步培養這些人才"},{"start":6973.775,"end":6998.321,"text":"有的除了我们向教育部升级三位奖学金每年三位去美国研读合共博士之外我们国研院这方面也有做很多这方面的跟国外的实验室跟大学的一些合作计划而且我们也替"},{"start":6999.588,"end":7016.641,"text":"比如说国务院和清华大学争取很多研究经费让他多收一些研究生及做一些研究计划让更多的学生能够加入这个合共的行列这方面各方面我们都尽量的努力来争取"},{"start":7017.521,"end":7035.907,"text":"所以主委您也是非常的用心在我們人才的培育這一塊但是我也希望說除了我們很用心的我們讓這些人才有深造有進修的機會之外呢他們到國外去進修也好還是說我們從國外吸收這些人才進來國內也好"},{"start":7037.287,"end":7059.015,"text":"就希望說我們有更好的條件那有更讓他們可以發揮的空間因為這個我們相關的合共發展如果我們培育人才結果他後來是往國外去發展的是一個很大的損失所以除了說我們去培育他之外我們要有怎樣的制度有怎樣的環境讓他們可以留在我們國內我想這是非常重要主委您的看法呢"},{"start":7059.475,"end":7075.957,"text":"是的 我们要有机制吸引合共人才到台湾工作或卜下合共人才这方面我们各方各面我们都有做这方面的工作那这个我希望说你们可以给我一份你们对于相关培育人才的报告给我办公室可以吗"},{"start":7076.977,"end":7101.523,"text":"我再跟主席借一點點時間喔接下來我想請教關於我們核醫藥的國家隊的問題喔我國的核醫藥呢八成以上是來自進口但因為缺乏這個藥品的韌性而且因為核醫藥呢它的藥品的特性它是沒辦法囤藥它的百酸期很短它沒辦法囤藥我們也常常因為受到國外一些外在因素的影響呢所以"},{"start":7102.223,"end":7120.836,"text":"我們一些合一藥我們必須要有自己有辦法自產自製那剛才我有聽到你們的回答其他委員就說我們將來我們在新的這些設施這個70mEV迴旋加速器如果建制完成我們的合一藥品會有7成以上是可以自製是這樣嗎"},{"start":7122.256,"end":7150.931,"text":"包委員是現在某些藥物啦像加67我們已經百分之百那投二年齡新基銜以下現在是四成左右那明年70MV會今年年底完成建制四年的建制明年開始測試所以明年以後可以提高應該可以提高到七成到八成那我還是要請教喔未來我們相關的核醫藥自產自製我們最急需的是什麼除了設備我們的人才呢"},{"start":7154.401,"end":7179.632,"text":"報告委員 人才方面我們現在同位訴所 相關的人才已經有接近差不多100位的同仁 他們都是35年前第一台30MV很多都是35年第一台30MV開始建置完成 運轉的時候就已經在那一邊 還有一些同仁是這樣那最近幾年我們也極力招募 今年我們也開放10個區 就給合一藥物"},{"start":7180.472,"end":7209.369,"text":"针对这个国家药物团队这个所需要的不管是生物科技或者是药学或者是生命科学的这一方面的人才所以我们已经有针对未来我们核医药的发展所需要的人才在做培训以及招募是是是那我这边再问你刚才我们提到了关于这个太空元件的抗辐射这个我们相关的这些太空中心跟核安会的合作对于太空元件抗晶片这个晶片抗辐射的检测"},{"start":7210.349,"end":7228.148,"text":"這個部分這個機制我們是由我們這邊主動還是說你們怎樣的一個合作是我們對於這個低軌道衛星還有車輛的這個晶片我們長期跟國內一些半導體廠都把晶片送來我們這邊做測試這是從三年前就開始先用32V這個是"},{"start":7230.711,"end":7252.373,"text":"10到30個NVV將來70個NVV完成以後可以低軌道衛星可以擴散到30到70個NVV所以這個都已經有規劃而且現在國內一些晶片的大廠都有送過分他們所需要原來要去國外測試的晶片先送來我們這裡做測試目前已經大概進行三年以上"},{"start":7252.947,"end":7276.587,"text":"好謝謝最後本席還是要強調核安不只是只有發電的時候我們要去顧慮到其實在醫藥上在醫學上醫療上都非常的重要所以希望說核安會跟其他的部門也要相應的就是持續的合作然後繼續來精進我們要顧好核安才能保護我們民眾的安全以上謝謝"},{"start":7281.523,"end":7293.396,"text":"謝謝陳秀寶委員質詢 官員請回座接下來有請林怡瑾委員質詢謝主席 有請陳珠瑋請陳珠瑋備質詢 謝謝"},{"start":7301.108,"end":7317.204,"text":"主委好委員好我想針對河山廠這個再運轉的這個計畫實施審查這個月8月已經完成了程序的審查那接下來就是要邀請專家學者跟河南會你們內部的同仁來進行所謂的專案的這個"},{"start":7321.028,"end":7340.703,"text":"審查的團隊來組成然後依照法規跟參考國際的做法來進行嚴格的技術審查也就是說我們要進入實施審查的部分那下週二好像也是要在恆春來辦理地方的說明會來廣納在地的意見"},{"start":7342.064,"end":7368.68,"text":"據瞭解這次台電送和安會的這個核生產債務轉計畫內容很龐大包括這個本文就有300多頁總的頁數也有將近700頁不過台電有說會密集追蹤和安會的進度希望能縮短溝通的行政時程我想請教主委什麼叫縮短溝通的行政"},{"start":7369.9,"end":7396.397,"text":"時程就是說核能的安全有寬鬆跟趕進度的空間嗎主委核安會是秉持核管法做嚴格的審查一定是按部就班按進度進行所以台電說什麼會希望縮短溝通的行政時程這個就你沒有在理他就對了就是按照按部就班按照核能安全嚴密的審查 對吧"},{"start":7397.938,"end":7418.965,"text":"好 那本席過去就一再強調核能不只是技術的問題它牽涉到全民的信任還有對國家未來能源發展的願景還有後代子孫怎麼不必須負擔這些那麼高昂的這個核廢料的處置成本喔4月28號你們要去恆春舉辦的地方說明會"},{"start":7421.158,"end":7441.677,"text":"本席就要請教主委就在位處這個地震帶有這個核電廠那它深受影響的就只有所謂的在地恆春的居民嗎那台灣我們就是說我們真的一定要到所謂的這個因為其實核三廠它年限已經到期"},{"start":7442.558,"end":7449.121,"text":"他運轉了40年那已經也除役了那你要讓他繼續運轉這件事情難道只是所謂的地方議題嗎他不是全國的議題嗎那所以如果說就民意 因為我們去地方是要探尋民意嘛那如果說就"},{"start":7459.685,"end":7471.75,"text":"你如果認為他是全國的議題那就全國性的民意的部分那你核安會要怎麼樣去做面對跟採納這是第一個問題第二個問題是那如果台灣我們要繼續運轉這個核電廠那"},{"start":7475.231,"end":7500.993,"text":"我們將受 我認為將受影響的國人有受到影響的國人 就叫在地居民嘛所謂在地不是核餐廠位居的那個地方而已因為我們很清楚知道嘛他有恆春活動斷層帶從下方通過那反映如下方他的過去嚴懲受擠壓容企的所謂的被邪構造"},{"start":7501.533,"end":7524.458,"text":"也就是說這個岩層它受到擠壓石拱起來的結構這表示地底下它曾經發生過變形的作用那日本福島核災發生的時候日本政府是建議要疏散30公里的居民那美國是撤僑80公里所以我們的核酸場半徑就足足有80公里那涵蓋 屏東縣"},{"start":7527.273,"end":7543.693,"text":"台東縣還有高雄市所以請教主委如果這個大約要386萬人口在發生事故的時候那你要怎麼樣負責他的這個撤離跟安置兩個問題主委我請林組長回答"},{"start":7547.311,"end":7561.452,"text":"報告委員就是針對如果發生核子事故因為以目前就是有的案例會知道因為核子事故它有一個方向性因為主要對於場外的居民來說主要是確保就是希望不要受到輻射程的影響"},{"start":7562.553,"end":7580.348,"text":"因為輻射程它如果飄出來的時候是會隨著就是大氣所以它會有一個方向性因為隨著這個氣流的方向風向的部分那所以一般在做緊急應變和只是過了緊急應變的時候第一步都會先請民眾在做室內的演繹"},{"start":7581.269,"end":7608.665,"text":"那接著就會看在沒有輻射程飄散出來的時候呢那才做這個緊急的一個疏散那疏散因為如剛剛委員所關心的像這個撤離安置是非常重要的事情那在整個過程中也必須都要確保撤離安置民眾的一個安全所以在事前的準備以及這個疏散的過程也都是會分階段分時序的來進行"},{"start":7609.805,"end":7629.723,"text":"對 所以也一定不只恆春也不只屏東縣嘛應該是就是說我剛剛提的 你的80公里 半徑80公里 方圓半徑80公里你是涵蓋到台東縣還有高雄市啦所以你的撤離安置計畫或者整個的應該是也包括這些縣市吧"},{"start":7630.504,"end":7647.404,"text":"目前因為我們除了地方政府有核子事故的緊急應變計畫之外那另外也會災防法裡面也有整個就是全國的一個緊急應變的計畫所以各地方政府他們都會互相的去做支援"},{"start":7648.405,"end":7673.851,"text":"那剛剛提到全國嘛我剛剛一開始的第一個問題就是說這個不單純只是一個地方議題吧它應該也是全國議題不然你為什麼要通告各縣市政府那如果是全國的議題的話那面對這次的民意的這個採納那是不是不能只在恆春辦說明會而已不能只在恆春廣納民意而已你是不是還要有全國性的這個民意的採納的過程"},{"start":7678.074,"end":7705.066,"text":"這次說明會我們有現場直播而且任何人都可以在委員會的網站上提出意見我們對所有問題我們都一定會一一答覆所以你是實質的說明會在恆春舉辦可是你是用直播的方式所以全國人民只要對這個事情有一些意見或想法都可以通過你的網站跟您反映"},{"start":7705.846,"end":7720.235,"text":"那你其實可以正式的開所謂的全國性的這個直播的說明會啊可以考慮看看那個就是針對全國性的當然啦那是在地可以直接讓居民可以去了好"},{"start":7721.557,"end":7738.893,"text":"剛討論到的都還是核能安全的問題那接下來跟主委討論到的是幾乎沒有辦法解決的核廢料問題我們光是這個低階核廢料到現在都測不出藍雨那我們到底有多少的本錢說要處理更所謂的更高階的核廢料"},{"start":7739.634,"end":7761.431,"text":"所以主委 你很清楚啊 這個最終的處置的場址啦要兼顧所謂的地層的那個 兼顧的穩定又沒有地下水 又不滲水這個條件台灣找到這種地點嗎 即便那裡找到啦最大的挑戰是 那當地的居民會同意這樣的一個高階這個核廢料會伴隨終生嗎"},{"start":7765.594,"end":7773.843,"text":"而且我們又還沒有通過所謂的高放射廢棄物處置條例的立法所以在這個情況之下"},{"start":7774.98,"end":7796.177,"text":"我要請教主委你這樣的話這些核廢我們如果繼續運轉那這些核廢的成本是要轉嫁給未來的世代嗎你認為呢經濟部已經成立了專案辦公室處理這方面的問題而且我們有核後端基金來支付有關的經費"},{"start":7799.98,"end":7805.764,"text":"這點恐怕有經濟部人回答會適合一點我們說到經費台電跟經濟部去年6月初有去芬蘭考察全球首座深層地質核廢料的處理廠叫安克羅這次的參訪"},{"start":7820.834,"end":7839.603,"text":"芬蘭這個設計 芬蘭有答應說要把這個技術輸入給我們台電所以第一步的工程技術可能可以克服我想請教主委說我們複製這個安克羅模式是未來我們高階核廢的處置方向嗎 是嗎"},{"start":7842.91,"end":7855.107,"text":"這個請陳主席來回答好 來來報告委員目前台電公司所提的處置概念其實是跟瑞典還有芬蘭是相近的就是剛才委員提到這個Ok 好"},{"start":7857.85,"end":7873.432,"text":"今年安克羅這個要試營運那芬蘭是從1983年起花了17年的時間做調查啦溝通啦才敲定了長職然後又花了20年好不容易在今年要試營運所以"},{"start":7875.094,"end":7890.843,"text":"加上最初一開始的研究時間我想啦芬蘭恐怕是花了半世紀的時間人力物力的投入才實現了所謂的永久儲置場的建設那光是我們說費用就耗費了10億歐元差不多台幣370億那後續我們還有所謂的百年運作還有最終的封存還有40歐億元約台幣差不多1400多億"},{"start":7901.229,"end":7924.178,"text":"好那這些我看也不是結束因為我們要真正喔這個最終就是真正要去除這個高階核廢料對環境的威脅所需的時間可能還要數十萬年吧這我們我都活不了那麼久所以我們很難預估未來地球是怎麼樣樣貌好那所以芬蘭的科學家跟研究人員其實他一直"},{"start":7924.878,"end":7945.87,"text":"就是在興建這個核廢料這個最終處置場的時候他其實有把戰爭啊極端氣候啊甚至未來人類的好奇心都評估在內那用盡各種方法要這個確保核廢料這個最終處置場不會被開啟或者被破壞那主委如果我們把這些成本都算進去那核電真的便宜嗎"},{"start":7949.037,"end":7972.678,"text":"跟委員報告一下台電公司的台電公司經濟部的後端基金裡面大概有1800億是用來處置高方廢棄物就是這個計畫那剛才委員所提到這些概念其實它是一個被動式安全也是目前我們採用的就是我們不主動依賴人類的監管而是將來它處置後它能夠被動達到安全就要花那麼多錢嗎"},{"start":7974.26,"end":7991.776,"text":"對 不過目前台電也是有這樣的策略有這樣的做法 這就是核能發電它必須面對的成本你不能光核電廠這樣就是你要看後面的好 那我們再花30秒我們在討論今天的主題 因此能法"},{"start":7992.637,"end":8019.682,"text":"因為上次我詢問過主委那主委說現在並沒有這個檢討修正的必要因為他50年沒有修了那你說目前執行上也沒有致癌難行喔那不過你說會與時俱進的檢討所以我想要請教主委除了這次提出的修法就是組織名稱的這個修正以外那你認為還有什麼哪裡有進一步需要修正的地方"},{"start":8020.936,"end":8046.451,"text":"目前对于原子能法的修法的草案呢合同会已经规划了原子能法修法草案原则上仍朝基本法方向修正并明确组织原子能安全管制原子能科学与技术的研究发展奖励免税及赔偿以及负责等"},{"start":8047.071,"end":8070.411,"text":"五章共二十七條所以你們已經有草案了對 已經目前已經在嚴密之中好好 就是會大修然後已經有一些復案就對了對好 那就期待您的復案出來那未來相關的問題我們審查法案的時候再來討論好 謝謝主席謝謝主委謝謝林議警委員質詢 官員請回座"},{"start":8088.627,"end":8101.521,"text":"有請葛瑜君委員好 謝謝主席有請陳主委請陳主委"},{"start":8109.832,"end":8133.045,"text":"謝謝我們最專業的主委這個河岸會這次專報為了我國海域放射性物質監測執行現況以及未來因應的作為本席看了一下過去的相關記錄從結果來看索性都在可以控制的範圍裡面沒有嚴重超標的情況然而在檢測的次數跟預算上本席是有一些疑問"},{"start":8134.525,"end":8159.415,"text":"這張圖表是近年這個生物實驗室的這個檢測量以及預決算數可以看到這三年檢測的件數跟花費的金額以國研院的數據來看可以看到這三年檢測的件數大概是六七百件前兩年平均大概是690那今年的目標呢756件只多了66件9.5%的增加跟平均比起來"},{"start":8159.995,"end":8185.047,"text":"但前兩年的預算平均下來每年是652萬那今年卻大幅增加到1424萬是218%的提升足足兩倍有餘所以只多檢測了9.5%相對於平均可是預算卻增加了兩倍218%本席不是反對要增加檢測的預算但是河南會如果評估今年的風險特別高"},{"start":8185.447,"end":8208.022,"text":"要增加次數當然沒問題但現在的情況看起來會讓人有點不是很確定說事情沒有多做那麼多但是錢卻多拿那麼多想請問一下主委今年這樣子的預算大幅增加減身目標值卻比去年只平均增加一滴滴到底是什麼原因這方面我們請張組長回答好了是 簡短回答"},{"start":8209.162,"end":8229.069,"text":"報告委員因為生物穿我們是採兩個階段因為穿的性質它會有無積穿跟有積穿那兩個的一個檢測方法是不一樣的那我們現在是為了檢測的實效性所以我們第一階段是用檢測無積穿如果無積穿有異常的我們就會進一步檢測因為整個來講"},{"start":8231.69,"end":8251.219,"text":"有那個有機穿的只有在國園院所以國園院的一個預算會比較多增加了幾件有機穿的部分增加了幾件目前我們的有機穿過去多少件然後現在增加了多少件量倍嗎應該是說過去我們的一個檢測無機穿大概都是在標準的一個範圍您是說哪一個比較高"},{"start":8254.921,"end":8270.577,"text":"有無積穿是第一階段比較好測有積穿的價格比較高有積穿所以我現在問的是有積穿的之前的件數跟你現在編的預算多兩倍的件數有沒有多兩倍檢測的次數因為我們現在是在有積穿是在"},{"start":8276.923,"end":8291.5,"text":"做一些養殖試驗然後生整個身體的單件我知道謝謝柯普很棒但我們在盯我們是要監督啦所以一些細節麻煩會後提供給我們不然這個預算我們看起來會我們尊重但是目前不理解好不好我想"},{"start":8291.82,"end":8313.319,"text":"旁邊有一些官員也有點搖頭所以我想我們來確認一下那我也想說這個我們真的是很支持核安會預算從一開始第一天來到這裡就是這樣那本席上次有跟主委提到就是SMR的研究經費不足那至今這個我們還在幫你們爭取他說現在只有國園院一億元的計畫"},{"start":8315.32,"end":8335.977,"text":"我想主委這麼專業一定知道美國是多少億?1000億法國是多少億?360億韓國67億即便我們還幫你們加上了國科會審查當中的中長程計劃116到119也才10億平均一年下來之後可能再變成2.5億完全遠遠落後國巨我們剛看到的是韓國67 法國360"},{"start":8338.584,"end":8362.032,"text":"美國1000 那我們不要去比美國好了 加大業大我們比韓國可以吧 67億啊請問主委 這些國家是傻子嗎 還是他們遇到騙子還是說台灣未來不需要電 主委你可不可以跟我們分享一下就是說我們現在正在做明年預算 概算嘛請問主委 明年在SMR到底要編列多少"},{"start":8364.772,"end":8387.432,"text":"我們今年是1億,明年是4年,1加4年的計畫,加上SMR,加上Micro Reactor,就是MMR所以這個計畫裡面編了10億,希望一年平均有2.5億的預算能夠進來但是國科還在審查中,不見得能夠完全照這個數目核給我們現在2.5億都不一定全能夠拿到"},{"start":8388.493,"end":8408.411,"text":"那這個民眾聽了很緊張啊覺得說這個預算的編列是部會的職權行政院有機會要執行我們的總統相關的方向結果我們現在一年用2.5億要來打發賴總統的新式核能的計畫我想這樣我們是不是有點對不起他的說法"},{"start":8410.584,"end":8430.004,"text":"我們是不是幫國客會幫我們核安會支持一下我們也鼓勵說核安會我們能不能再討論一下不然這個比較起來好像台灣不需要電因為我們非常多國外的專家來看覺得台灣是不是不需要電"},{"start":8430.945,"end":8452.535,"text":"但是大家都非常緊張報告委員主要是SMR的時程在國際上尤其是西方世界應該五年以後才有機會可以刪轉所以我們是這個資料是你們提供的喔就是美國是一千億法國三百六十億韓國六十七億我們說人家還很久啦讓人家跑就好了我們晚一點"},{"start":8453.335,"end":8462.265,"text":"這個不是科學研究的邏輯吧那我們所有科學研究國科會所有科學研究都暫停了別人做完了成熟了我們不用投入了我們再來做可以這樣嗎"},{"start":8464.312,"end":8492.249,"text":"同意這樣的說法嗎不同意吧不會同意吧科學跟技術是這樣的說法嗎我們希望維持一個基本的量能啦好好笑不只要基本啦我想台灣的我們台積電的等級我們世界科技的中心我們總統的名字裡面有AI新式核能研發也可以運用AI啊對不對我看你很點頭嘛所以我想這個我們希望一起來努力那我們也希望國科會"},{"start":8493.149,"end":8502.144,"text":"不只要這個要全額通過甚至國會是不是可以再多加支持但是河岸會自己也要多加爭取主委能不能多加爭取"},{"start":8503.695,"end":8525.726,"text":"我們也會盡力好不好 我們一起來努力啦那我想 主委是非常努力啦帶著我不是 但是這個數量的誠意我覺得大家也會覺得沒有凸顯出我們賴總統的決策嘛那這樣我覺得好像賴總統已經講了結果我們的行政機關好像在打發他沒有這個意思吧"},{"start":8529.4,"end":8557.882,"text":"我做球給你們你們要說沒有這個意思還是其實是在打發他我覺得先生方面很支持這方面好 支持我們就多一些好不好那我想我們來看一下不只是我們剛剛提到的啦人才也很重要那河南會近三年人才培育相關的經費我們剛剛已經講了我們賴總統也喊了心事核能在很多場合裡都提到但裡面呢預算竟然還有逐年減少的情況"},{"start":8558.723,"end":8585.805,"text":"哇 我們缺電我們需要更新的技術啊 我們不要去了解它我不只我編列預算跟人家沒辦法比我甚至呢 我科普教育我給你少一點 是怎麼樣讓大家都不要知道有心事核能讓大家都不要知道SMR嗎這樣跟得上國際的做法嗎我想這個希望主委啊該花的錢要花該做的事要做隨著全球各國的狀況我覺得這個我不用放給您看啦 對吧"},{"start":8586.906,"end":8598.712,"text":"八成韓國人挺核能啊目標2028年還要啟用兩座新的日本今年1月20號已經重啟全球最大核電廠2月要正式商轉所以我想"},{"start":8599.691,"end":8619.134,"text":"國安會如果未來評估風險增加或者新的研究要加大大家都會支持啊因為這大家一起努力能源的安全我們的永續這個是跨黨派的這沒有政治的意識責任所以我想主管不要害怕該編的就編好不好可以嗎"},{"start":8620.655,"end":8640.985,"text":"那隨著科技發展我想國際對我們的這個能源重視真的很重要啦民眾都非常希望要有選擇不要只是口號那關於核電重啟的計畫核安會必須審過兩份台電提交的報告是再運轉計畫跟自主安檢報告那上個月底呢台電已經將再運轉的計畫送到核安會那準備的會議也在4月1號召開這個我們看到了"},{"start":8646.347,"end":8662.499,"text":"據本席了解 目前審查委員的意見我們問同仁跟我們說已經收集完畢了可是剛剛有委員問你又說還沒收集到這個羅生門誰說的是真的到底審查委員的意見收集完畢了沒"},{"start":8664.114,"end":8685.928,"text":"跟委員說明我們已經收集 可是我們要彙整我說收集完畢了沒 我這話講得很清楚吧收到了沒收到了 還要再進行彙整那就很清楚 那也許剛剛主委口誤啦那我們不能一個國會有兩個兒安會的說法嘛那請問主委啦 這些意見就是說你們彙整"},{"start":8687.229,"end":8701.26,"text":"收集完畢但還在彙整意見那彙整意見要告知台電嗎那什麼時候打算預計告知總不能一年十年一百年嗎有沒有時間那彙整完之後大概下個禮拜就會正式發案給台電公司"},{"start":8702.02,"end":8718.951,"text":"下個禮拜很好那我想這個時間就是要抓緊那這個流程有可能還要往復但是很可能還是要抓緊那請河安會密切掌握審查過程裡面產生的一些相關的說法不要讓有心人士有操縱跟影響審查的空間"},{"start":8720.552,"end":8748.871,"text":"那除了再運轉計畫還有自主安全報告要繳交因為我們很重視核能安全嘛所以我們有非常完整的這個做法那經濟部表示要最快2027年中才能提交核安會但是我們本來法規辦法都講了三檢項目可以分階段送本席在上次詢答也都跟各位確認過了那主委去年跟本席回答說會跟台電密切溝通啊現在溝通的怎麼樣有沒有收到任何一項報告因為可以分次嘛"},{"start":8749.491,"end":8774.642,"text":"有沒有任何一項報告跟我說明喔到目前為止也只有再運轉計畫那台電公司內部還在進行自主安全檢查所以自主安全報告目前分批送是零啦對不對 零啦那這怎麼推薦進度啊那台電現在是打算多久之後要送一年 一年半 十年 一百年有沒有 他們有沒有意願要分階段送"},{"start":8775.582,"end":8792.179,"text":"目前就我們所了解他們已經開始在進行現在已經一年半很快就過完了啦那我們是提議啦是不是和安會還是要主導一個這樣子的一些會議啦好那主動的積極的去增加互動好不好那不能一直等等"},{"start":8792.739,"end":8808.638,"text":"一年半過完了再來十年半再來一百年我想這不是這樣我們台灣真的很不一樣我們跟各國可能也都不一樣我們要加緊努力上次本席也詢問過主委被降級三級機關有沒有影響上次主委很誠懇的說調圍二級單位對國際交流"},{"start":8812.102,"end":8836.194,"text":"人才培育跨部會整合有幫助這你們的報告裡面寫的寫得非常完整升格以後可以落實國際原子能總署的報告當中提到強化安全管制機關職能之精神這你們寫的我非常感謝你們把這樣的一個狀態提出來那目前人種的同仁也在請人種的同仁好不好請人種的同仁"},{"start":8838.612,"end":8852.395,"text":"那這個先問主委您跟卓院長任總反映過升格的事了嗎目前討論的結果怎麼樣我想所有委員跨黨派都很關心因為這也是您自己的報告內容"},{"start":8853.8,"end":8877.957,"text":"反映過了嗎?這方面我的理解是目前還涉及很多行政院組織法方面的並不是修改一項法律就可以解決所以組織法的事跟卓院長沒有關係就是組織升格沒有關係啦沒提過我希望您提因為我們大家一起來提好不好那任總也在我請問任總對核安會升級二級機關的態度是什麼?"},{"start":8879.778,"end":8898.227,"text":"我想這個文字我不用朗讀給您聽管制機關必須要有足夠的權限還要跨領域相關的才能確保核能安全你不讓他提升成績他沒有辦法確保核能安全我們在這裡所有跨黨派的委員我們都要關心請教任總"},{"start":8899.392,"end":8918.665,"text":"是 報告委員 那個我們人種的部分是因為審查和安慰是在112年的時候改制那改制的過程裡面他其實是雖然是是調整為三級但是他其實是從那個三級的部分變成獨立機關的角色"},{"start":8919.265,"end":8941.97,"text":"所以依照它的相關的法規的授權跟它的專業性的審查不會因為它的層級性而影響到它的專業的提升那現在到底是幾級機關目前就是三級的獨立機關對啊 我在跟你講三級 你說三級獨立機關它的權責就比二級機關更大嗎 更好嗎可以做到它有更多足夠的權限嗎"},{"start":8942.91,"end":8967.27,"text":"報告委員他的權限主要還是來自於法規授權他專業審查的那個能力他有沒有跨部會溝通協調的能力還是有啊他有辦法請台電趕快提交嗎他原則上他是受台電提交來做審查沒關係任總這個同仁我理解大家都很辛苦我希望任總不要去挑戰國際原子能總署的相關報告"},{"start":8968.371,"end":8991.343,"text":"也不要低估我們組委、我們核安會所做出來的報告的茵茵的期盼國人的茵茵期盼不要用這種什麼法規的文字面的東西具體事實就是職能不足啦需要提升那我們運動部就有空間可以提升為什麼核安會沒有所以我想不要去玩文字遊戲希望人總可以好好的思考"},{"start":8991.823,"end":9007.697,"text":"跟賴總統 卓榮泰院長一起表態竟然要重返核能是不是讓核安會重返二級機關這點也希望任總的同仁帶回去專委帶回去跟任市長討論有沒有可以調整的地方一個月內給本席一個回應可以嗎"},{"start":9009.317,"end":9034.956,"text":"是好一個月內那我想另外啦我想這個科技的發展我們就是要進步啦我們也要民主我們也要進步啦那我們剛剛提到的是這個這個這個核安會嘛那不要遇到科技人種好像都在卡我相信不是這樣的意思之前我們也問我們在教育委員會故宮的數位資訊室要升格為數位資訊處任市長也表示很支持啊後來研議說後續會研議的結果怎麼樣了"},{"start":9037.418,"end":9061.03,"text":"可以請回去了解一下在這個月月底前把結果告知本席辦公室可以嗎這個人事長是有同意的啊那個是在業務質詢的時候委員的提出月底前結果告知本席可以嗎我們回去轉達另外在金管會我們現在這個虛擬資產服務法也即將要上路本席的版本在條文中有明定金管會應設專責單位人員人數要依其業務增減來調整"},{"start":9064.992,"end":9086.753,"text":"接下來虛擬資產服務法可能會排審,我真的是希望人種啊,不只是我們剛剛提到的虛擬資產,不只是我們剛剛提到的故宮的這個數位的要轉成處,還有我們最重要的核能的能源的安全,不要因為卡在什麼樣的文字上的原因,一定要提供給核安會足夠的權限,"},{"start":9088.074,"end":9110.928,"text":"專業的能力和財務還有人力支援他才有辦法獨立行使職權嘛你講說他很獨立很棒他沒有人沒有權沒有錢你要叫他怎麼保護我們的核能安全這個同意嗎這個人種的同仁同意嗎沒有錢沒有權沒有人怎麼有辦法保障我們的核能安全這個同意嗎"},{"start":9112.005,"end":9133.285,"text":"呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃"},{"start":9138.894,"end":9159.266,"text":"是不是徵詢在場的委員讓官員休息五分鐘上個廁所可以嗎因為九點到現在他們還沒上廁所好 那我們休息五分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":9165.73,"end":9166.651,"text":"待會兒就好了"},{"start":9464.244,"end":9481.096,"text":"好 現在繼續開會 請葉元之委員進行詢答主席好 麻煩請主委有請主委 謝謝主委好 委員好"},{"start":9491.108,"end":9506.043,"text":"這個昨天因為有一些反核團體去跟總統見面當然他們是不希望重啟核電不過我看有一些與會者他轉述賴總統的話感覺上賴總統是還蠻朝向重啟核電的角度去說啦"},{"start":9506.704,"end":9522.913,"text":"他說因為他考量到電力供應不如預期就是符合社會缺電的擔修還有說核安技術現在比較能夠掌握了然後另外就是AI未來用電大增所以應該要重新思考核電"},{"start":9523.413,"end":9545.847,"text":"其實我看到賴總統願意這樣講我們真的感到很高興因為過去幾年都是在野黨一直在強調說可能會缺電然後應該要重啟核電可能會有空污的問題或者是可能會電價上漲電力的韌性等等但一直因為民進黨就一直反對啦還常常在噴口水啦怎麼核廢料放你家這些最後終於賴總統"},{"start":9547.188,"end":9567.533,"text":"他也願意理性的面對這個重新重啟核電問題我覺得很高興那我相信賴總統這樣一講像包括核安會主委您或其他的政務官就可以更理性的面對這個議題不像以前我記得我們在問核安會主委有關於核電的議題的時候都是左閃右閃就都不敢講"},{"start":9569.134,"end":9586.236,"text":"您的前一任主委那時候問他說到底河南安不安全他說有發生事情就是不安全沒發生就是安全有講跟沒講一樣每個都變語言天才那我想跟這個主委先請教一下賴總統說現在河南技術可以掌握他是指哪一個部分"},{"start":9589.874,"end":9612.726,"text":"我不確定你不確定他講什麼?核安技術是一直在進步之中過去40年他講的是傳統的核電還是新式核電?新式核電是傳統核電因為新式核電它的安全也是逐年都在改進傳統的也是逐年都在改進對,逐年都在改進"},{"start":9613.246,"end":9620.377,"text":"那我想請教一下那您自己的立場呢你是不是贊同賴總統所講的你覺得核電到底對於讓電價穩定有幫助嗎"},{"start":9628.036,"end":9652.682,"text":"看財電公佈資料確實是有幫助有幫助是比較便宜嗎我看到資料上對於電價是有幫助電價可以比較穩定不會一直漲嗎是的甚至於如果未來核電的供應可以比較多的話那電價也可以更低一點沒問題嗎"},{"start":9654.598,"end":9683.071,"text":"這點恐怕台電去發明這個資料比較多由他們來回答比較適合然後再來就是用核電應該好處很多嘛比如說可以降低排碳量嘛對吧因為他們有不需要排碳嘛對吧是然後用電也比較穩定嘛至少比再生能源穩定嘛因為再生能源不是基載的嘛有時候要看天吃飯嘛核電應該是比較穩定嘛對吧核電是可以視為基載基載嘛那既然"},{"start":9684.291,"end":9696.707,"text":"主委你都認為使用核電或者是我們重啟核電有那麼多好處我認為核安會除了被動的監管之外我覺得應該更積極的促成這件事情那現在因為"},{"start":9697.83,"end":9717.218,"text":"台電已經在三月底的時候送出再運轉計畫了那河安會現在正在審嘛 對吧那早上的時候主委你也有講一些你們審的程序啊比如說把意見啊大家先書面審查然後讓他上網公告嘛然後會實際上去看嘛然後還會邀請外部的學者什麼之類的"},{"start":9717.938,"end":9730.003,"text":"那你有提到說因為安全關係沒有辦法加速審查但對於這件事這句話我覺得啦有沒有辦法在符合安全情況之下加速審查這兩個沒有衝突啦"},{"start":9731.37,"end":9756.051,"text":"我舉例來講譬如說你現在是要在五月中的時候開第一次會議嘛審查會議嘛五月中嘛對不對那五月中通常政府機關運作是這樣啦開完會然後可能要台電補報告或什麼什麼會有一個程序對不對其實你可以在每一次跟每一次開會的中間你可以縮短開會的時間"},{"start":9758.581,"end":9782.566,"text":"或者是你在安排會議的時候你可以盡量縮短比如說你請外部專家來開會可能要開好幾次一兩次兩三次大家針對上一次的會議再來討論你可以縮短開會的時間我們行政院有很多其他部會在審查比如說地方提出來的計畫的時候常常開會因為案子很多所以第一次會議跟第二次會議差到半年"},{"start":9783.715,"end":9805.629,"text":"那它其實也不見得是因為這一個案子的問題而是因為案子很多以至於針對某一個案子它排比較久那假設核安會你把核二核三核三的再運轉計畫當作一件事情來做的話你其實可以透過縮短行政流程的方式來加速審查的時間那主委你同意嗎"},{"start":9806.556,"end":9834.888,"text":"所以核安會它的效益方面一直都很注視而且我們很有信心的說我們核安是很有效率的很有效率所以我覺得盡快啦好不好就針對剛剛大家也講了嘛核電現在重啟的話好處這麼多總統也有顧慮啊電力供應不如預期啊那核安會就不要被動的好像台電有資料來你就看一看再排會議其實你們可以多跟台電合作"},{"start":9836.091,"end":9864.802,"text":"去跟他講說趕快大家一起來促成讓合二合三重啟這件事情啦我意思是這樣啦不知道主委可以嗎合二合三的溝通是非常順暢順暢是順暢啦順暢是比較不會吵架我是說叫你積極的跟他說趕快補資料啊你缺什麼甚至於說不要文件來了這樣退啊有的時候大家可以一起講說你有什麼事情怎麼做可能會更快一點站在協助的角度去跟他講嘛"},{"start":9866.366,"end":9880.339,"text":"對那這樣子可能那個進程可以再縮短啦好然後再來就是你們現在4月28號要去恆春舉辦地方說明會對吧對主委您不會去嘛對不對我沒有去那因為之前"},{"start":9881.34,"end":9901.242,"text":"就是民進黨一直在講非核家園就把核都妖魔化了所以現在有非常多的人都反核啦那還有就是有些民進黨立委還是依然反核譬如說像屏東在地立委莊瑞雄就反核嘛他就是說核三已經為台灣貢獻四十年放了他的故鄉啦因為重啟核三"},{"start":9901.983,"end":9928.291,"text":"就好像打開潘朵拉的盒子啦反正就是反對然後譬如說像現在在選新北市長的舒巧惠也都是一直呼籲啦在叫大家拒絕重啟河山所以我是提醒河安惠啦你去開說明會的時候可能還是會依然遇到非常多反對聲音那你有預期你們準備的計畫或者是你要去跟地方怎麼溝通的你的重點是什麼提點溝舒巧惠的好了"},{"start":9929.712,"end":9946.664,"text":"跟委員說明主要還是針對台電公司先提出來的再運轉計畫這部分那包括台電公司再運轉計畫整個的規劃那也會說明河岸會自己本身針對再運轉計畫的審查規劃規劃你們的規劃對譬如說是什麼譬如說因為我們是依法跟有審查導者那依照再運轉計畫的審查導者審查的重點擺在哪裡"},{"start":9957.091,"end":9980.572,"text":"那讓民眾也知道說會裡面的關心的點跟外部委員都會介入來加入所以你們是希望讓在地的民眾知道說在河岸這一塊你們一定會把關你們的審查是非常嚴謹的然後如果在地的民眾有提出一些疑慮比如說哪個部分他覺得你們沒有做好你們會積極跟他們回應就是你們還是會站在把關的角度"},{"start":9981.512,"end":10004.546,"text":"就提醒你們可能會遇到剛剛一些狀況然後另外因為那個主委你之前也有提過你說因為非核家園的關係所以讓我們的核工人才流失所以現在應該要積極的回聘跟培訓那我們現在根據台電的說法因為有關於核電廠的人才是一直還是保留著"},{"start":10005.006,"end":10015.665,"text":"並沒有因為說核二核三現在沒有在運轉就把他們辭退或什麼都仍然保有但有一個重點就是欲缺不補啦所以他還是有可能會造成一定人才的流失"},{"start":10016.931,"end":10038.828,"text":"那這個部分我有看到這個河安會好像也有跟教育部去去申請就是留學的補助的名額但我覺得那個名額有點好像太少了我們來看一下像這個爭取這個名額是根據賴總統五大信賴產業的這樣的一個計畫去申請的可是像其他這個是五大信賴產業其他產業"},{"start":10041.769,"end":10069.119,"text":"申請人才的名額就比較多比如說像有關AI的你就可能跟他申請10個10個留學國家的公費補助的名額然後像資通訊也是10個那半導體5個可是呢核子工程相關的就只有3個那核子工程相關其實核子工程它還包括不是只有完全是核能安全還有核能研發比如說核融合技術核能系統等等"},{"start":10070.43,"end":10095.975,"text":"那你以這樣子來講主委你認為我們的河工人才夠嗎這個這個留學的名額過去十年河工這個學名是零了對就零啊你有講到嗎因為之前非核嘛所以就斷層啊現在只剩下三個當然我們留學的管道不只是公費留學這個地方還有個人設計獎人金還有"},{"start":10098.223,"end":10127.644,"text":"以前台電曾經有台電獎學金還有其他的單位也送人出國所以不單是公費留學這條路而已出國留學當然有很多條路但我們就這條路來看人數就比較少啊所以你認為說除了這個之外其他的台電獎學金或是自費的其他加一加現在人是夠的是不是"},{"start":10130.434,"end":10158.441,"text":"我們只能繼續努力吧希望創造條件讓大家願意走上這個領域所以這個是教育部核定你的名額是不是教育部核定名額那你當初申請幾位我就申請三位所以你申請就比較少啊你不是有設限嗎我們也逐步增加啦從0到3已經很大的跳躍了那為什麼你當初只有申請三個"},{"start":10161.057,"end":10187.167,"text":"不是 你不能跟之前比嘛因為之前就非核家園嘛現在要重啟核電了嘛而且還有新式核能啊你不能跟以前非核家園的時代比啊政府政策也轉彎了嘛我們會逐步增加啦會逐步增加好 謝謝謝謝葉遠之委員的詢答下一位委員"},{"start":10190.547,"end":10201.384,"text":"吳士雅委員好謝謝主席有請主委有請主委也請國務院高院長"},{"start":10205.623,"end":10224.981,"text":"好大家辛苦时间宝贵直接就扣合着主题今天的专报是寒川废水的监测那事实上我认为我们扩大海域的检测是all in one除了寒川废水之外还有大家都关心的中国沿岸的核电厂的排放物那我今天是来验收的啦"},{"start":10225.501,"end":10243.6,"text":"从2019年到我离开教育文化委员会应该是2024年我八度的质询日本的寒川废水我也是立法院第一位关心的委员那我当时的四个方向的倡议就是要扩大台日合作在现有的MOU的基础上"},{"start":10244.341,"end":10264.544,"text":"第二个我们一定要组成跨部会因应的平台第三我们要来跟IAEA国际原子能总署合作扩大国际的参与一起来监测最后一个呢台湾要在这个事件上做出科研的贡献这是我的四大主张那我来逐步的来验收下一页"},{"start":10265.385,"end":10280.884,"text":"第一個就是強化檢測的量能喔當時呢我在質詢的時候台灣的生物穿分析實驗室只有國園院自己一間然後現在加了兩間就和安會自己有一個然後高雄市衛生局有一個就一間變三間檢測的量能從"},{"start":10283.487,"end":10301.298,"text":"每年本來500件一年現在可以檢測到2000件一年我的問題有兩個第一個這個因為高雄然後河安會然後這個國園院國園院這個地域不均的問題還有它終極的量能是不是已經足夠兩個問題快速回答"},{"start":10304.096,"end":10329.682,"text":"包括委員在這邊我們就是有考慮一些漁獲的一個捕獲其實集中在一個南部所以在輻射偵測中心還有我們的高雄可以就近那目前的一個2000件的檢測量連就那個食藥署跟農業部那個漁業署的一個採樣在這部分都是目前都OK所以暫時就三接沒有再進一步去擴充的必要"},{"start":10330.422,"end":10358.648,"text":"目前好那没关系我们持续看实际的需求滚动式的检讨下一页那我这里有两个数据一个是今天您的报告里头的这个河岸会的历年海域样本分析件数统计总计出来其实我帮你算了是18385检测件次那我另外在我们的仪表板就是跨部会的辐射检测的仪表板统计出来的件数是29万多也就是将近30万"},{"start":10360.228,"end":10368.518,"text":"那我是不太清楚兩個統計的數字是為什麼有這個落差可能一個是減次一個是減數應該是這樣造成數字的不同是不是這樣子"},{"start":10372.97,"end":10378.615,"text":"報告委員因為我們當初因日本排放川水我們有成立了那個應對計畫然後跨部會那時候我們就是利用這樣來去做年度的監測計畫所以在圖表那個吧裡頭我們現在每年大概是4900多4800多件"},{"start":10393.911,"end":10414.684,"text":"但是因為在衛福部的進口食品的邊境查驗因為它是從也都算進來在我們的應對計畫因為它已經投入資源了有經費了所以把它列進來好那我知道但無論是一千一萬八千檢測件數或是二十九萬的監測件數都是零件不合格"},{"start":10415.504,"end":10434.513,"text":"是的 换言之我们暂时可以解除警报了给国人安心对不对我们长期的监控而且具体的科学化的检测都在做零件不合格大家可以相对放心解除一点点警报但是持续追踪持续监测持续的科研是我们的立场好 下一页"},{"start":10435.333,"end":10449.951,"text":"第三個驗收就是我們要善用跟台日既有的核能管制資訊交流MOU然後來爭取赴日第一個我當初的要求是第一手要拿到資訊第二個我們甚至要能夠籌組專家團去做而我累積追蹤到現在"},{"start":10454.076,"end":10482.301,"text":"你们也都有照本席的建议要求至少完成了六次复日实地的访查而不是只依赖他们提供的资讯第二个呢我们定期的视讯会议二十几次持续都在做这个部分我也给你们肯定好吗这个也是验收通过持续进行下一页那最后就是这个当初在说这个寒川沸水大家搞得很恐慌但事实上呢我们反而遗漏了"},{"start":10483.101,"end":10504.873,"text":"在离我们最近的台湾海峡这一侧因为寒川沸水会往花莲那一边因为那个潮汐那个黑潮的关系所以说在我们大台湾跟中国大陆沿海核电厂分布这么的密集反而对于中国沿岸核电厂排放物对台湾的影响是更严重的"},{"start":10505.453,"end":10522.788,"text":"我一直在提出這個警訊跟要求那solution是什麼呢我看到你們要提出一個116年到119年跨部會的國家海域放射性物質污染監控任性網就可以一件理由all in one既可以監測輔導寒川廢水又可以更來"},{"start":10530.133,"end":10557.326,"text":"補強中國沿岸核電廠放射性物質排放是不是這個計畫這個任性網就在做這個事是的 如委員所述那預算呢那我們現在在爭取那期望的一個總預算是大概是一個6億不過省政院這邊還在審議中所以說現在要審很遺憾了現在才在審去年要審的預算那現在在編明年的概算會編入明年的嗎"},{"start":10558.466,"end":10576.913,"text":"我们来争取全力争取好吗不能再等好吗我们也会一起来跟行政部门来要求跟倡议我希望今年明年再审审查明年预算的时候我们可以看到这一笔好吗我们会跨党派来支持好继续加油下一个电收"},{"start":10578.674,"end":10584.844,"text":"這裡國研院要請教日本當初東京電力公司他是針對不同的魚種進行這個養殖的這個實驗比木魚鮑魚海藻等等所以說他除了監測海流之外也做了這種"},{"start":10594.257,"end":10619.984,"text":"養殖的實驗證實用川水去養殖就對了那證實結果川並不會於生物體內累積所以對於生物的健康沒有顯著的影響當時我在問這件事情的時候你們告訴我國研院自己也在進行用黃錫雕來試驗現在是不是在進行中要不要增加實驗的物種要不要持續的增加實驗的時間"},{"start":10622.117,"end":10635.904,"text":"這些呢 是 報告委員現階段會把這個黃錫雕的檢驗整個把它做完原來就包括黃錫雕龍鬚菜 九孔刀 白蝦做完以後看下一個計畫如果下一期計畫"},{"start":10637.085,"end":10652.688,"text":"要繼續做這個國家願意繼續投入我們會增加我也支持跟倡議要繼續做增加實驗的物種我覺得這是兩個保護傘兩道防線一個是監測寒川廢水的這個排放物"},{"start":10653.209,"end":10654.65,"text":"很多在野党的委员在说核能很便宜"},{"start":10683.349,"end":10693.021,"text":"核能是真的那么便宜的吗主委你刚刚的回答我是大有意见你以他的发电的收费来看"},{"start":10694.181,"end":10722.053,"text":"我們對於核能的投資對於工程設備的更新尤其現在廚藝的核電廠要再啟用還有要對於採購燃料棒還有對於他的賠償風險你都不提耶你都不提耶我們作為一個政策的倡議者你是核安會的主委你可以輕率的回答說對核電比較安全我再給你一次機會"},{"start":10726.365,"end":10733.63,"text":"核电不是零风险所以风险是有代价的风险也需要"},{"start":10736.771,"end":10755.548,"text":"你不能用核電的發電的幾塊錢一度一塊多比這個其他的人這個燃煤還便宜來簡化這個問題啊我用具體的數字來說你知道福島核電廠發生複合式的災害之後日本政府投入多少錢賠償嗎"},{"start":10758.134,"end":10778.508,"text":"我跟大家講我要跟公民社會講福島核電廠發生我們不幸的災難事件我們不願意看到它發生日本政府已經投入光賠償金10兆日元如果加上賠償金跟清理後續的廠的收拾是花費了22兆日元"},{"start":10779.449,"end":10801.646,"text":"最終這件事情還沒有結束喔最終會解決這整個福島核電衍生的善後最終的花費可能會到35兆至80兆日元我取它的中間值就是大概55兆日元等於11兆台幣光一個核電廠出現了安全的問題"},{"start":10803.183,"end":10824.461,"text":"他投入11兆台币现在还在收拾是4年的台湾国家政府总预算你告诉我核电很便宜你告诉我这些设备设施风险的代价不用计算吗主委我实在不能接受问题不能这么简化"},{"start":10825.478,"end":10844.199,"text":"委員他在槌尋他會從某一個切點切入可是我們在看待政策是要全面的我甚至我剛舉日本的例子我可以舉美國的例子啊跟核三廠類似的美國加州的魔鬼谷核電廠你們應當常常會提到這個案例吧"},{"start":10845.06,"end":10869.675,"text":"他對於整個攤提的成本設備的更新燃料的添購他的發電核電一度要到4塊台幣如果把攤提算進去絕對不是簡單說核電光講發電一度一塊多是廉價的是便宜的我認為我們講政策要講清楚要講全面"},{"start":10871.076,"end":10898.568,"text":"委員只看到其一你必須縱觀好嗎核電的風險跟安全的代價也是國家要pay for it台灣人民要pay for it這個事情我要在這裡正式的來澄清說清楚不要只看到核電的好處而它的好處也不是只有比較便宜這一項而你遺漏了它可能造成的風險"},{"start":10899.989,"end":10922.058,"text":"安全是無價的安全是無價的安全是無價的但即便如此我們二次的能源轉型我們要做的是能源的多元化核電只是其一核電不是唯一而核電還包括新式核能的開發不是只有舊核電的老路所以我確實"},{"start":10923.579,"end":10949.374,"text":"我也肯定政府正在做能源多元化的整体评估重启核电要过了安全这一关要有核废可以解决的这一关还有社会的共识要具足所以核电只是其一并非唯一这是我在这里要再次强调我刚回答是根据台电的说法这不是核安会的立场"},{"start":10950.154,"end":10954.205,"text":"那你的說法會被剪成影片去放你知道嗎我剛剛說的收不出台電的"},{"start":10957.239,"end":10978.715,"text":"主席站起來了最後給您10秒鐘核電真的是如此的廉價不需要去思考它的安全風險嗎您再回答一次我問核安會事實上只關心的是核電的安全經濟上是不是有效率就讓他們由台電來評估所以發言請注意發言請嚴謹好嗎好謝謝加油辛苦了謝謝"},{"start":10986.428,"end":11007.132,"text":"好謝謝委員的質詢我們下一位委員吳佩儀委員謝主席我請何安慧陳主委有請陳主委"},{"start":11015.6,"end":11019.605,"text":"主委好我們4月28號上午10點核安會要在屏東舉辦核安會審查核三廠運轉執照換發案的地方說明會這個說明會非常的重要因為我們核三廠興建的時候是在1978年"},{"start":11033.723,"end":11058.781,"text":"我還沒有出生當時是戒嚴時期資訊封閉而且我們也沒有環評法規相關的程序所以可以說核三廠興建的時候其實是沒有公民參與機制的公民當時無法表達意見那也遠不如今天的程序完備那我們現在已經是民主化時代民主社會所以我們一定要進行充分的社會溝通你們也務必要把可能的影響要對大眾來進行說明"},{"start":11061.323,"end":11084.168,"text":"那我想請問一下因為剛剛主委有說這個說明會我們是全程網路直播嘛是的是 所以我覺得很好那場次呢因為你們舉辦時間是在平日上午其實有些民眾反映因為在上班不方便參加我們有沒有預計規劃其他場次我們總共會有四場總共會有四場好 這個資訊呢請你們務必在網路上面都要公開那我們這個說明會完的會議記錄會不會公開上網"},{"start":11087.486,"end":11110.711,"text":"也會公開上網很好我們要讓民眾能夠有實質的參與的機會跟管道那另外今天核安會的專報也有關於原子能法的修法因為有委員提案在討論事項當中那作為立法委員呢為法案把關都是我們的工作所以呢這個召委員有提案版本那比較不好意思但是因為這個對這個版本確實有些意見所以今天要提出來跟核安會討論"},{"start":11112.331,"end":11128.505,"text":"這個版本是趙偉宇、廖偉祥、蘇清泉、徐巧欣、林倩琴、林沛翔等19位委員所提的主要意見是在於它這個修法版本的第三條因為我們現行的版本是說原子能主管機關為原子能委員會"},{"start":11129.246,"end":11144.397,"text":"立屬行政院其組織以法律定制那現在委員的修法版本是把裡面要說第三條應該應設立二級原子能管機關核能安全委員會那麼核安會我們目前是三級機關嘛"},{"start":11146.099,"end":11161.574,"text":"那如果要修為二級機關這個方向其實我認為都可以討論但是如果是這個修法是修在原子能法我就比較有疑慮一點目前核安會是三級獨立機關這個是定在哪一條法裡面"},{"start":11163.823,"end":11178.434,"text":"所以河安會組織法對因為我們其實是有河安會的組織法我們有專屬的組織法就在第一條裡面裡面有明定說這個我們是相當中央的三級獨立機關那既然我們已經有專屬的組織法"},{"start":11180.095,"end":11196.045,"text":"如果真的要提升它從三級到二級的話要修應該也是修在組織法當中應該不是修在原子能法尤其是今天它是修法是希望定定為基本法這個方向那我看了一下因為有可能是像我們新住民的基本法"},{"start":11196.465,"end":11218.856,"text":"他的這個要三級行政機關就是定在新住民基本法當中這個在法的第四條但是新住民基本法跟原子能法還是完全不同為什麼因為新住民基本法訂定的時候是2024年7月三讀通過當時是甚至沒有新住民發展署的有基本法之後還沒有組織法但是我們現在河岸會我們既有法也有組織"},{"start":11220.077,"end":11245.104,"text":"更有組織法所以如果真的是要來討論這個三級至二級的話要修應該也是要訂到組織法當中今天人事總署是不是也有來我有請人事總署那另外呢如果真的要修這個法的話也是要配套修法因為也是正在叫我們叫文匯去年成立了運動部嘛我們新設運動部的時候當時不只是修了不只是提了運動組織法同時要修什麼要修中央行政機關組織"},{"start":11247.144,"end":11271.377,"text":"組織基準法與行政院組織法因為我們這個核安會他是他如果真的要提升這個級別的話這是牽涉到行政院整體的這個機關所以如果要修也是這兩個法都要配套來修所以第一個如果修了原子能法還是得要修這個核安會組織法嗎所以我就看不出來說為什麼要來修這個原子能法第二個"},{"start":11271.877,"end":11294.595,"text":"就算修了環會組織法我們還是要配套修中央行政機關組織基準法跟行政院組織法這三個法通通都要修才有可能啊那如果說現在我們只修原子能法修二來把三級變到二級但是沒有去修中央行政機關組織基準法及行政院組織法的話這個在法與法之間會不會有所衝突這個主委可以回答嗎還是我們任總可不可以來協助回答"},{"start":11295.991,"end":11322.323,"text":"就是說倘若啦就是說核安會如果現在要把它變從三級變成二級機關的話沒有去修中央行政機關組織基準法跟行政機關組織法會不會有所衝突是 報告委員那原則上我們的原則是說在作用法裡面其實盡量不要提到阻塞跟人力的編制所以它這次的修法主要其實是在證明說它的主管機關是誰所以因為原則能"},{"start":11323.743,"end":11351.257,"text":"委員會的名稱已經改變所以提到這次的修法但是提到組織層級這個我們還是比較希望回到組織法跟行政院組織法或者相關的規範來做檢討 以上好 謝謝對 所以如果說是三級要到二級我覺得可以討論但是這個修法應該是要來配套再來就是我也很關心的是因為現在這個趙偉這個版本裡面還有把獨立機關的獨立兩個字是把它拿掉的"},{"start":11352.257,"end":11374.133,"text":"這個我有很大的疑慮 為什麼因為橫安櫃作為獨立機關是因為它這樣的職權是叫做監管核能安全這是我們主委剛剛一再強調也是你們今天報告當中所講的原子能法它所訂定的是原子能政策以及安全管制的根本法制基礎但今天如果你把獨立兩個字拿掉"},{"start":11376.525,"end":11405.032,"text":"這個未來看起來核安會它也有可能是成為一個推動機關不只是監管機關我們讓它是獨立機關第一個最重要是我們希望核安會不受政治干擾依專業來自主決定應該核能安全就是要回歸專業但如果把獨立兩個字拿掉未來如果核安會變成還是推動機關不只是監管機關會造成非常非常大的問題"},{"start":11406.604,"end":11421.397,"text":"因為河岸會現在的定位其實是裁判推動機關叫做經濟部叫做台電如果把獨一兩個字拿掉未來河岸會還要去推動的話那變成裁判兼球員球員兼裁判"},{"start":11423.584,"end":11453.284,"text":"所以我有很大的疑慮那所以未來在討論這個修法的時候請大家務必要謹慎那最後呢是今天我們專案當中也有海域輻射監測這個我也很關切因為主要談論是寒川廢水嘛國際原子能總署最新發布的消息是日本從福島核電廠排放的第19批處理水它的寒川量是遠低於日本的排放限值你們請核安會協助說明這個訊息它代表什麼意思"},{"start":11455.605,"end":11481.137,"text":"報告委員那因為IAEA都會針對日本每一批次的排放都會去取樣那在這個因為他們也會去做分析那依照日本的一個排放限制是每一批次的那個稀釋後的傳濃度是要低於1500倍克每公升好那他們的一個都分析完那依據我們過去的一個掌握日本大概每一批次大概是座落到200到500之間"},{"start":11483.258,"end":11500.56,"text":"所以IEA才會說它的一個是遠低於日本的排放限值所以都是在標準我看了一下歷來的資料這屬於常態但是我們核安會還是要持續的來監測不能放鬆警戒但是我要提醒為什麼會有寒川廢水"},{"start":11501.821,"end":11524.83,"text":"那就是因為福島當年核災發生之後它的第一核電廠它受損了嘛所以它為了要去維持它受損反應爐的安全它必須持續的一直去注入它的冷卻水把這個水注入到爐心因為要幫反應爐降溫對不對然後這個寒川水因為量實在太大了最後它只好往海域去排放"},{"start":11527.045,"end":11538.166,"text":"那為什麼要持續降溫因為現在的核燃料棒跟反應爐它是融在一起拿不出來我們現在還有多少的這個核燃料是殘留在福島的核儀廠團會有沒有資訊"},{"start":11542.52,"end":11566.57,"text":"一共現在還有880噸 這是日本的資料因為1號機 2號機 3號機 三部機組因為爐心受損 燃料目前還取不出來因為它們融在一起 所以目前在裡面的還有880噸2024年的時候 日本首次取出燃料碎片 取出了多少 取出了3克"},{"start":11567.978,"end":11577.463,"text":"在裡面880噸核栽之後不是核栽就沒事了880噸現在椰子取出了3克為什麼它融在一起了所以這是一個非常龐大複雜的問題"},{"start":11580.109,"end":11596.821,"text":"所以我要再次來提醒有關於核能的使用每一個決策它的影響都甚大甚久遠目前這個寒川廢水日本往海域排放還要排放多少年沒有人知道它的這個核燃料殘存在輔導廠裡面的"},{"start":11598.522,"end":11623.055,"text":"還要多少年才有辦法完全取出 沒人知道所以呢 我們務必 核安會是核能安全的主管機關要拜託你們 務必要謹慎的為國人來把關我們核能使用的安全好不好 主委 這是你們重大的責任有關於台灣的下一個50年 下一個100年就在我們核安會 你們謹慎的把關當中請務必秉持專業好 謝謝主委 謝謝主席"},{"start":11627.5,"end":11654.313,"text":"好 謝謝我們吳委員的詢答也感謝吳委員提供的意見加入一起討論未來我們一起努力朝野一起合作好 謝謝下一位吳麗華委員的詢答 謝謝謝謝趙偉主席有請何安慧主委有請主委"},{"start":11663.263,"end":11683.159,"text":"主委好主委好這個禮拜一大家都知道日本青森縣發現有7.5的強震因此引發國際的緊張我們都特別注意它的周邊的核電廠的狀況像是青森有核電廠工程"},{"start":11683.88,"end":11710.519,"text":"也有核电厂那包括福岛有核电厂那特别是福岛的核电厂因为距离当时福岛核灾已经15年但是呢这个排放期程这个寒川废水呢要监测长达30年所以在这个部分引发了大家的疑虑我们也很想知道我国监测的结果可是呢在去年核三厂"},{"start":11711.3,"end":11735.422,"text":"他有发生火灾但是民团批评没有通报也没有通知撤离所以呢大家也发现说我们的风险意识很薄弱那请教一下针对这种国外国内可能引发的这些核灾的应变目前有SOP机制吗有的是什么林组长回答"},{"start":11736.631,"end":11753.142,"text":"報告員我們在核災面上有核子事故警警應變法那也都有相關的一個組織的一個規劃那相關的程序書以及我們每年都會透過年度的核安演習去做一個場內到場外這些我們都知道那為什麼去年沒有通報"},{"start":11754.542,"end":11778.197,"text":"報告委員 去年就是河山場這個火災 它的地點也是在 並不是在這種緊要的區域那另外它也並沒有影響到 就是機組的部分跟在所以意思就是說 它不會在人口密集重要的地方所以呢 就不需要讓周邊的居民了解 不需要通報 是這個意思嗎"},{"start":11779.218,"end":11781.661,"text":"那未來如果還發生這個情形因為我們都知道我們每一年都有在做演練但是去年發生這個情形就讓我們很驚訝"},{"start":11798.004,"end":11822.521,"text":"目前電廠都跟就是像地方政府都有更緊密的一些即時的聯繫所以像就是聯絡的平台社群就是一些LINE等等更即時的聯絡平台他們都在更強化那意思就是說這個有列入檢討以後不會發生這種沒有通報沒有周知居民要不要撤離不會再發生這種事在通報的部分就是已經確實在做強化"},{"start":11825.258,"end":11852.902,"text":"做强化那意思就是以后不会再发生这种被诟病的事实我们会监督就是台电公司跟电厂这边那为什么我们会这样子重视因为我们也很了解光是我们常常讲日本寒川沸水日本寒川沸水可是在我们的对岸我们不要讲日韩光是我们对岸的海边大概中国就有20座的核电机组非常的惊人"},{"start":11853.983,"end":11866.132,"text":"那在這裡呢我們也看到我們現在有所謂的採樣點那有跟水勢所、海巡署、海保署還有你們偵測中心總共有107個取樣點"},{"start":11868.914,"end":11889.208,"text":"我想問就是面對中國地區越來越多的核電廠現在當前載運跟核組在建的就有112台新核准的有46台所以為了我們的周遭海域跟核能安全著想這107個取樣點有沒有重新檢討還是這樣就夠了"},{"start":11896.015,"end":11919.385,"text":"報告委員在107點其實我們有涵蓋就是剛剛圖上講的台灣海峽然後也有馬祖金門的還有澎湖的這些離島那在我們未來的因應因為這些是屬還是屬於要人工的採樣跟一個分析所以我們在下一期的一個計畫在監控韌性網這邊我們是希望在離島這邊能夠建立及時的這些偵測站那這樣的話就能夠針對這個"},{"start":11926.208,"end":11950.575,"text":"所以會增加就對了那我因為在大概五個月前就是上個會期你們和安會來這個地方做夜報的時候我在12月10號當時我有提醒因為民團很多人問每次都是說寒川寒川我們的這個監測儀表板公開的這個儀表板也只有看到川"},{"start":11951.295,"end":11970.901,"text":"但是呢穿以外的核種也蠻多的啊所以當時問你們的時候當時你們有坦言說像碳14.129目前還沒有能力去檢測所以我當時有說兩個月內請你們邀請衛福部國科會中研院就穿以外的核種對人體的危害風險檢測的技術"},{"start":11972.802,"end":11998.242,"text":"控管的標準要納入監測的範疇那我在這邊要很肯定因為你們回報給我的資料12月26號你們就有召開跨部會的協調我們也看到像截至目前4月份這個儀表板我們也看到跟以前不一樣了他有其他核穿以外的核種有看到色穿探絲點但實際上你們給我的報告還蠻多的包括"},{"start":12002.425,"end":12027.219,"text":"還有菇、鳥、地還蠻多的你們說已經改版更新放入這個儀表版當中但是我們看了一下你們之前有寫什麼合格建樹、不合格建樹但是目前這樣的一個實施範圍內建樹大於背景範圍內建樹那它到底是合格還是不合格"},{"start":12030.562,"end":12045.111,"text":"因為這一些其他的河種它是屬於稀少的其實它含量很低我們當初在大家在討論的時候因為海水它其實是沒有標準的當然我們的環境就是我們河岸會"},{"start":12046.872,"end":12073.961,"text":"或者是國際的那個Codex食品的安全其實都有一個標準可是我們覺得這個值都因為它的值本身很低所以我們後來就是用背景的一個概念想說很低就叫背景一般人看不懂啊其實你們公開儀表板就是要讓國人安心嘛看不懂啊所以你們儀表板要不要再去多做一點改善改進"},{"start":12075.653,"end":12091.228,"text":"好我們這部分再會後我們再好謝謝那最後我有一個部分就是想要了解因為重啟核三嘛那四月也進入審查階段了嘛所以呢有一個公文就是四月二十八"},{"start":12093.35,"end":12118.267,"text":"會有一個河安會審查河山場運轉執照換發案的地方說明會那當然地方的立委你們都有邀請但是我們看到民間的部分邀請的是恆春滿洲的部分地區但是我們如果以過去電協會發回饋金它受河山影響的地區有四大鄉鎮"},{"start":12119.708,"end":12146.088,"text":"我們的車城鄉牡丹鄉就沒有被受邀這是什麼原因?已經邀請了有邀請了齁?因為我覺得核安安全嘛最重要的就是知情同意嘛所以這個部分你們有加邀了齁?有加邀了謝謝齁那這個部分我們也想要請教一下核電的人才因為你們要重啟安檢所以我們就看到報上說"},{"start":12148.516,"end":12168.375,"text":"你們目前是在找那些退休老將回鍋也暴露了我們河工人才的斷層所以這個部分尤其是明年會是人力最吃緊的時候我想請教一下河安會你們有沒有做什麼因應就是關於人才的培育"},{"start":12170.808,"end":12191.388,"text":"有很多方面的除了在公費留學之外我們也申請很多研究計畫給清華大學跟國研院培養人才你們有去學校找人了嗎?有有有他們願意到你們那邊工作嗎?現在還沒有到那邊,我們工作還只有考試"},{"start":12193.109,"end":12220.441,"text":"我想这个部分我们也是很希望你们关照一下我们希望有更多人可以投入这行业因为其实很多的核废料储存其实都会在我们原住民的传统领域所以我希望你们也不要忘记人才在地培育这件事情我希望以后我来咨询的时候我能够听到这方面的回应因为其实在我们的公务人才培育现在考选部"},{"start":12221.101,"end":12237.496,"text":"他們都已經有因應的計劃中長城計劃那關於我們高等師資的一個培育原住民的部分教育部呢他們也都已經有中長城計劃出來我就是想要知道現在在我們那個地方又有國家發射廠"},{"start":12238.617,"end":12265.044,"text":"又有核电厂等等之类都在我们的传统领域你们刚刚自己讲嘛说那个地方是很偏远的地方比较没有人居住的地方那在地人才的培育就很重要啊那我希望这个部分也许我下一次的质询我会希望听到你们已经有中长城计划该如何做人才培育可以吗可以的谢谢主委谢谢主席谢谢委员"},{"start":12268.302,"end":12269.987,"text":"謝謝吳麗華委員的詢問下一位諮詢委員羅廷惟委員"},{"start":12297.042,"end":12320.021,"text":"好謝謝主席有請主委好請何安慧主委謝謝好主委辛苦了謝謝主委先跟你確認一下上次您有跟我答應我們可以爭取科普展在我們台中可以嗎可以可以下半年"},{"start":12321.127,"end":12338.92,"text":"可以大概什麼時候可不可以跟大家分享12月12月12月左右我想這是對中部地區長期推動科學教育的一個一大鼓勵這邊我也想建議國科會跟台中市政府在地的這個研究單位密切能夠合作"},{"start":12339.62,"end":12363.92,"text":"甚至有需要我們協調的例如結合捷運站的導覽、科博館的主題展區等等適合把它設計到整個國小到高中不同年齡層的一個路線跟活動讓親子、學生以及一般市民都能夠找到自己適合的一個參與方式如果有需要協助的話本席也願意全力來幫忙這個部分是不是大家一起來努力是的好"},{"start":12364.5,"end":12376.587,"text":"那今天排審這個原子能這個修正案報告裡面提到呢我們想這個一行政院啊功能業務及組織調整的一個條例第三條只要行政院完成公告"},{"start":12377.509,"end":12399.392,"text":"主改整個機關的管轄權就已經完備也就是說整個行政程序上行政院原子能委員會改制為核能安全委員會這件事情其實已經生效運作立法院只是將這個相關的條文中的一個名稱一併修正為核能安全委員會但是我想比較能夠跟你請教的"},{"start":12401.209,"end":12422.676,"text":"原子能我們這一次的核能安全委員會核安會的報告中我們希望將原子能委員會改成核能安全委員會上面寫競表尊重想請教主委這句競表尊重的意思是什麼對核安會來說是不是沒關係"},{"start":12425.416,"end":12451.486,"text":"維持條文原本的原子能委員會對核安會來說是不是也覺得都可以可不可以展現一下立場現在核安會對機制的運作方面並沒有什麼困難對啊沒有什麼困難所以可有可無是嗎您覺得"},{"start":12455.617,"end":12479.968,"text":"實際的運作不會有困難我們都知道但是呢現在法規我們要幫你修正嘛立場是什麼可有可無還是支持我們是原來是配合行政院的主改規劃對嘛主改規劃已經幫你改名了嘛但是法規上還沒有跟進嘛"},{"start":12480.931,"end":12507.952,"text":"涉及行政院的這個組織法等等我想主委我在問你到底是可有可無還是競表支持啊這部分您覺得呢當然感謝委員關心主委您的回應真的是非常的好不愧是我的學長立法院的回應都非常的四平八穩"},{"start":12509.551,"end":12531.63,"text":"但是我想我們都還是希望今天不會無緣無故幫你修法一定是有其必要性那另外我想請教一下人事行政總署在人總今天的報告中提及和安會業務性質偏重於專業導向的一個監督機制與相當二級機關"},{"start":12537.168,"end":12562.703,"text":"通常會公平會中選會偏重於廣納社會多元的價值有別所以以維持現行組織層級的運作請問任總你自己也講核安會的業務性質偏重於專業導向的監督機制現在核能在全世界都那麼重要加上核電又要重啟那麼重要的一個單位難道任總反對核安會回到原來的行政院二級機關嗎是這樣嗎"},{"start":12567.616,"end":12588.727,"text":"原則上我們是因應他在1、2年的時候進行促改所以他在從原子能輪會改變成核安會的當下其實有進行一些組織上的調整那當時候的原額其實也都是照現行的規模處理和給所以在相關的人力規模上其實並沒有去做其他的刪減"},{"start":12589.767,"end":12606.686,"text":"那另外一個部分是因為我們是在看說他的那個組織性的部分是因為他現在都是跟過去原子能委員會的職能上有做一些變化所以他現在是完全是一個監管的單位所以他的職能上維持在監管的層級上"},{"start":12608.408,"end":12633.259,"text":"改變成為獨立機關的性質維持三級總歸原來就是你今天報告都有寫你覺得就是維持現行所以你反對回到原來的二級機關是吧我們是建議還是維持我想如果二級單位員額滿的話我倒是建議人總可以降為三級三級機關也可以做公務人員的人力管理應該也沒什麼影響"},{"start":12634.62,"end":12654.933,"text":"但我基本上我還是希望每個單位的立場說明白沒關係我們都尊重但我們的立場就是希望既然核能重啟既然核能的安全我們要予以重視能夠幫你列為二級機關是希望說在這個業務上的跨局處跨部會的一個協調能夠更為順暢"},{"start":12657.034,"end":12674.405,"text":"阿當然你也說啦三級冠你也順暢啦我尊重你的說法啦好那但是我們還是希望我們的立場各自說清楚好主委今天就繼續我們河岸會的赴日實地觀察第六次的報告來請教主委請問主委上次我在業務中有提到"},{"start":12675.424,"end":12696.494,"text":"在日本土壤的採集問題啊你們說因為日本土壤都有專屬的儲存設施進行管制那今天就繼續這個問題來跟你請教首先我有收到核安會給我的回覆請問國際原子能總署於2025年2月視察寒川廢水排放的作業時也有對於土壤的儲存設施進行視察"},{"start":12697.634,"end":12713.574,"text":"但並無提出土壤取樣的評估作業請問主委國際原子能總署對土壤沒有要求我們就不需要主動規劃土壤監測跟取樣嗎人家沒有做我們也不要做這樣的風險評估你不覺得很被動嗎"},{"start":12716.738,"end":12726.532,"text":"我們現在政府的規定,國外的土壤是不允許進口的,這個詳細我們再請張處長做詳細報告。"},{"start":12732.169,"end":12752.482,"text":"因為目前那個日本是還沒有正式釋出這個土壤的一個在地用所以我們去看的時候應該是先掌握他們的初步的一個規劃跟想法那我相信IAEA國際專家也是這樣的一個想法"},{"start":12753.963,"end":12780.043,"text":"究竟之後真的他們去做土壤的一個一個外試使用到底他使用的面向是在哪裡對國人有沒有一些健康的一個風險我相信這邊都應該我們都河南會都還是會來持續的一個掌握然後來評估那以現在目前的一個階段而言因為他那個土壤是在管制的一個一個"},{"start":12781.363,"end":12808.213,"text":"一個儲存設施所以在跟委員報告以目前為止我們大概是不會有一個取樣的這些規劃為什麼我會對土壤這麼有興趣我們來探討一下我先請問既然土壤設有這個日本的土壤儲存設施進一步請教河岸會在復日是否會有實地瞭解這些儲存設施對地下水是否造成影響是否滲漏擴散"},{"start":12810.274,"end":12828.296,"text":"長期污染的一個風險評估也報告委員那因為這些土壤他們放到這個中期儲存其實在我們的國際就是我們的一個審查我們都是用國際的一個IEA的審查它還是屬於放射性的一個污染物"},{"start":12828.997,"end":12853.862,"text":"所以在這一些的省在國際的一個規範裡頭第一個當然要有完善的一個處理就我們知道那個日本的這個土它下面會有一些隔水的一個然後最下面會有黏土那中間旁邊其實它這些雨水下漏其實它有回收的機制所以它就是有一個儲存設施去做隔離嘛我知道可是進一步我們要來談的就是"},{"start":12854.682,"end":12878.983,"text":"日本目前政策是將低輻射受污染的土壤再利用在道路在防潮堤海岸防災林填海公共工程喔我要請問主委這些再利用土壤是否可能會影響鄰近的栽培食用農作物的土壤這是我們關心的啊"},{"start":12880.572,"end":12894.146,"text":"我知道嘛高污染的一定會做一個隔離嘛但低輻射污染我們也要監測啊我的態度很清楚有人說啊中國的核廢水排放我一樣要監測啊"},{"start":12896.331,"end":12922.158,"text":"只要任何影響到國人的飲食健康影響到我們未來甚至是孩童的飲食我一律都反對我一律都要求一定要嚴格審查所以剛剛我講的很清楚嘛為什麼我們關心土壤你說高汙染的他有儲存設施低汙染的他拿出來利用啦填海等公共工程我們是不是應該多關心一下這個議題不是只有寒川廢水"},{"start":12923.988,"end":12946.457,"text":"那有委員提到中國核廢水也要關心啊我支持那現在我講的低汙染的這一個土壤來做公共工程了主委他也有可能影響啊我們是不是要關心是我們一直在關心他們土壤目前還沒有外施對不起您剛剛講什麼我再講一次日本那個機器人的還沒有釋放出來"},{"start":12950.991,"end":12977.734,"text":"還沒有釋放出來對 他只是試點 有一些試點你說他的這個公共工程有幾個示範點是嗎在研究之中 還沒有正式釋放對嘛 他有打算這樣做嘛對吧他有這個 往這方面想有想我們就要來開始關心了啊對不對我們也有依舊關心預防勝於治療啊"},{"start":12979.11,"end":12987.057,"text":"你不能等他做了你才要來關心啊對不對我們要看到更超前超前部署嘛好不好"},{"start":12988.162,"end":13011.921,"text":"謝謝委員所以進一步了解地下水具有流動性是否存在地下水的傳輸輻射物質的二次擴散相關的風險有沒有充分的被我們給關注到去做評估嗎我想植物生長仰賴水土壤空氣三個基本的要素但根據食藥署公佈的資料日本五縣地區的食品監測和格率"},{"start":13013.723,"end":13033.525,"text":"從2021年的99.7到2023年99.5到2024年的前5個月99.1坦白講是呈現下降的趨勢請問主委這樣的變化是否可能跟環境中水土壤空氣的污染變化存在著關聯呢我們有沒有進一步的分析其因果的關係"},{"start":13037.212,"end":13055.707,"text":"因為那個衛福部其實是福島100年事故開始其實就都在做這個的一個邊境的一個查驗所以他的一個污染的一個來源是因為事故當下其實造成的一個污染的一個土壤所造成的所以也就像委員講的這個是長期的"},{"start":13057.628,"end":13070.918,"text":"那衛福部都有在這塊關心那剛剛講的這些污染在這十年中其實污染的土壤已經都被日本政府一一的收到剛剛我們講的那個中期儲存所以整體來講未來的這個土壤"},{"start":13073.74,"end":13093.857,"text":"他的一個一個在利用的一個使用其實都會在安全的標準而且現在日本也還沒有去做這一方面的一個推動所以在這一邊那個衛福部的邊境查驗也相信他們的一個合格這個都是會合格的對民眾的安全這都是我們很關心的啦那再來"},{"start":13094.577,"end":13121.41,"text":"報告也提及日本對低輻射污染土壤採取再利用的政策像我剛剛講的防潮堤防災林 填土我想這個部分我們都希望填海等公共設施是整個將作為整個填土或沖田的一個材料對於超過安全標準屬於高污染的一個土壤日本是如何處理長期的一個儲存最終的處置還有它的去化的機制它的標準"},{"start":13122.19,"end":13143.744,"text":"管理的措施為何我們都很關心也希望後面能夠提供這部分你們能夠關注然後提供這個資料給我們那報告第12頁也指出啊日本採取的是核燃料循環的政策也就是透過在處理用過的核子燃料中的可裂變物質啊達到在利用的一個核燃料資源"},{"start":13144.925,"end":13163.033,"text":"減少高放射性的廢棄物體積確保核能長期可以持續的利用以及能源的一個安全目標請問核安會如何評估核燃料循環的一個政策在台灣的可行性目前核安會整體評估結論為何有沒有什麼規劃"},{"start":13165.185,"end":13185.846,"text":"目前還在研究之中國研院也有做這方面的研究有研究喔確定喔是有研究好有研究就好但是我們希望降低高放射線的對我們希望後續能夠拿到一些相關資料可以提供嗎可以可以"},{"start":13186.861,"end":13202.681,"text":"這個部分我們希望台灣應該做得比日本更嚴謹因為乾式儲存的一個設施日本是使用金屬互相台灣是使用混凝土的一個互相系統所以在報告的第23頁提及日本對於台灣混凝土"},{"start":13203.782,"end":13227.417,"text":"這個所謂的互相系統安全監測以及因應他的腐蝕防範的議題被感興趣這代表台灣在乾式儲存的一個互相設計跟長期的一個監測規劃上某些做法已經走在日本的前面而日方也說要向台灣來取經這代表一件事情台灣不是做不到高標準和安跟和廢的一個管理"},{"start":13228.237,"end":13251.328,"text":"所以核安會更有責任把這些專業的成果風險的評估以及未來的用過的核燃料管理的一個整體路徑清楚的跟社會大眾說明最後我有一個議題我今天就提但不讓你回答了因為時間有限我想牙醫師全聯會在3月9日有拜會核安會討論兩個議題"},{"start":13254.38,"end":13263.64,"text":"分別是移動式的牙科X光機牙科的科間X光機必須設置在獨立的X光室"},{"start":13264.841,"end":13293.712,"text":"我想這個議題主委我希望能夠重視我們也很重視牙醫全聯會他們的一個訴求很多偏鄉沒有牙醫今天朝偉他們也是在偏鄉在努力我想比如台東縣東和鄉就是其中一個無牙醫的一個鄉鎮所以就只能藉由行動牙科的方式去偏鄉看診然而卻面臨沒有攜帶式X光劑無法做牙根管"},{"start":13294.912,"end":13322.592,"text":"以及拔牙等进一步的治疗这些都是现阶段遇到的问题偏向行动的牙科高龄患者所面临到的一个现行规范的一个障碍河安会是否承诺已经造成实际的医疗不平等河安会的风险评估有没有办法把医疗可静性不足的本身作为一个公共健康风险纳入考量就这两个议题有没有收集国际的指引更务实的做法"},{"start":13324.31,"end":13336.241,"text":"這個會後麻煩你給我資料好我希望你要正視這個問題好好不好謝謝可以的好謝謝羅廷偉趙偉的詢答請和安會主委回座"},{"start":13349.152,"end":13371.418,"text":"好 謝謝 我們下一位委員鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才�"},{"start":13377.955,"end":13398.54,"text":"好 主委好主委本席有看到您今天上午接受我們委員的詢答那有也講了媒體剛剛寫說您也親口鬆口說核電是有助電價穩定我想這樣的一個態度本席與肯定為什麼因為我們常講能源是選擇就是說我們大家都要用電"},{"start":13399.5,"end":13413.32,"text":"所以電怎麼來很重要還有電的多樣性不要雞蛋放在同一個籃子裡也相對重要因為如果說雞蛋放在同一個籃子裡如同現在台灣目前95%如果晚間的時候都是火力發電"},{"start":13414.827,"end":13430.652,"text":"突然間來一個中東戰爭油氣煤上漲的情況其實對於我們的發電成本當然是大幅提升也因此從2月28號到現在不過短短的兩個月左右的時間其實中油也吸收很多的成本"},{"start":13431.192,"end":13449.413,"text":"那如果說現在我們有相對的核能發電的話它是多樣化的一個分散風險也就可以有助於電價的穩定啦所以我想這樣子的一個過程裡面能夠聽到專業的意見我們是予以尊重也肯定那"},{"start":13449.913,"end":13479.068,"text":"另外一個部分我也看到就說有委員也問說現在河山場的重啟已經送到河安會那河安會我們現在這邊也講是說不會再加速對不對因為安全的問題把關非常重要我覺得這樣的一個態度我也肯定因為我還是強調河安絕對是最重要河安絕對最重要本席的選區有河一場雖然河一場現在是沒有在重啟的範圍內但是河安一樣重要"},{"start":13479.588,"end":13494.317,"text":"好那但是另外一個部分是說那至少我們要用多久的時間你說沒有辦法加速那總是我們有一個預估的時間到目前為止有沒有所謂的時間表就什麼時候會審理完畢過程是不是簡單說明一下"},{"start":13496.789,"end":13515.007,"text":"我对实际表有很大的方面有台电方面要看它的报告的进度报告老化审查的进度等等还有我们对审查意见的回复等等"},{"start":13516.11,"end":13540.045,"text":"還有我們現場視察的結果很多因素會影響到你是審查機關所以如果說台電送出來之後有缺失你要求更正改進台電有辦法更正有辦法改進再送進來你們再審查所以目前是沒有時間表因為世界各國核電廠重啟也不會有說大約平均多久時間可以重啟完畢"},{"start":13540.982,"end":13549.061,"text":"是的 當然不會有一個固定時間表好 那就本席的了解你們會用多幾次的限定審查"},{"start":13551.223,"end":13573.195,"text":"因為你現在可能是4月5月就要去限定審查是不是?所以已經安排了跟委員說明台電公司要提交的報告很多包括他先提出再運轉計畫那後續還有台電公司所說的自主安全檢查就是法規規定的老化冰箍這些這部分的報告都還沒送到會裡面來所以確實要"},{"start":13575.801,"end":13592.41,"text":"審查時間還要看台電公司什麼時候提交給會裡面來審查那台電公司對會裡面的技術審查的意見回覆這些我都可以理解因為其實我們就拿最簡單的比喻來講譬如說一般的民間建築好之後要申請使用執照"},{"start":13592.99,"end":13614.396,"text":"我也沒有辦法要求主管機關是說你什麼時候要發使用執照嘛一定是他把所有文件包括消防檢查包括什麼機電檢查全部都送進來合格之後你才有辦法核發嘛所以我這邊不會為難我只是說要求核安會一定要本於專業來去做法官可是另外一個部分"},{"start":13615.496,"end":13639.508,"text":"昨天賴清德總統也接見這個環團其實重啟核電這件事情為什麼說民進黨政府轉彎就是因為賴清德總統在兩個月前他先在一個公開的場合講是說台電已經要送進來了所以說大家才嘩然就說原來現在民進黨政府核電轉彎即便事後他又講說沒有還是要有三前提但是現在台電主動送進來是事實而且這是主動送進來"},{"start":13642.03,"end":13660.407,"text":"賴總統昨天還是在重提說要三條件一個和安無虞一個核廢有解一個社會有共識那我想要再就教一下我們專業的意見和安無虞沒有問題大家都同意甚至我更要求是說不能加速我們應該要本於專業和安處理"},{"start":13661.448,"end":13685.97,"text":"社會有共識到目前為止現在百分之六十七十的民調都已經站在支持台灣要有穩定物價核能發電的一個立場上面因為核電是低碳穩定低價的發電方式那另外核廢油解這一個就是大家現在在想是說到底現在民進黨政府有沒有在做最終處置場的選定"},{"start":13688.906,"end":13710.047,"text":"還是這一題就是大家打模糊仗主委因為我們現在合費料 合一的合費料還在放在我們合一廠啊然後告訴我們都是這個叫做中級儲存廠中間的中啊 不是最中的中啊那大家想說那合費有解你的意思是賴清的政府你要找"},{"start":13711.651,"end":13720.942,"text":"從上任蔡英文政府的時候就要講說要2025非核家園要找最終儲存場最終極的儲存場那到目前為止有在做討論嗎"},{"start":13722.725,"end":13745.818,"text":"包委員 那個目前經濟部他是先著重干事儲存的作業那後續呢他也成立了專案辦公室在做選址的工作這個幾年前就錯了但本身現在想問的是賴清德總統一而再再而三面對到這個國際壓力大家都有"},{"start":13746.858,"end":13761.156,"text":"或者說我們能源議題大家都需要用電這個本期開宗明義就講所以我是用一個很理性跟很科學的方式來去講但我想問的是說到底現在政府有沒有做實事就是說他一直強調核廢有解那他的解是什麼意思"},{"start":13763.557,"end":13786.456,"text":"核安會的網站我也去看過核安會也有一個網站報告是講是說國際現在大多數的核廢料採取最後有一個方法叫做深度挖掘有沒有就是找一個地方然後但是很深幾百公尺的挖掘讓它跟民眾土壤水質都沒有任何這個是核安會官網上面的一個報告一個說明"},{"start":13787.617,"end":13816.169,"text":"那我們有沒有想說這樣的方式那還有就是說這樣的方式還是要面臨到一個問題是說那到底位置在哪裡到目前有沒有做這樣的討論那個台電是有一個計畫在執行中那最大的問題還是剛才委員所提到的選址的問題因為有選址這樣的一個困難所以經濟部他才成立專案辦公室先來做立法工作然後後續來推動那有在推動有進度嗎"},{"start":13817.709,"end":13839.785,"text":"不然我覺得賴清德總統這樣子每一次都跟我們講這我都已經快會背了但是哪一件事情不重要可是重點是不能每一次都用口號講完然後這一題永遠無解可是我們核三場持續已經又要再重啟那這樣不就是他嘴巴嗎就是說一方面那個時候恐嚇人民講說核廢料很恐怖啊最好是放你家放我家"},{"start":13840.734,"end":13857.541,"text":"有沒有然後就是很反制的做法好那這個也另一個部分但另外一個部分是說現在重啟核三廠是事實嘛那重啟核三廠已經報進來了那我們同步核廢有解那解要怎麼解"},{"start":13859.108,"end":13879.879,"text":"還是你們的審查會不會審查是說那核三廠如果說再發電那現在核一廠核二廠我們的核廢料放哪裡最終儲存廠在哪裡這會不會列為我們審查的項目之一在我們的剛才講的那個後段的安全審查裡面我們有叫台電公司要說明這部分"},{"start":13880.419,"end":13908.915,"text":"要說明這部分對所以台電在核三廠重啟的時候就會把最終儲存廠給整個核廢料管理含最終處置這部分他們要說明但目前本席的理解他還是打馬虎眼啊他們只有講說中啊中間的中啊所以說像本席的核一廠裡面也有啊乾式儲存的相關還是放在核一廠啊但是最終在哪裡最終的終FinalFinal到底要用什麼樣的方式沒有啊"},{"start":13911.135,"end":13923.524,"text":"方式其實是跟剛才委員所提的這個方式是一樣的但是困難的地方就是選址solution有但是location沒有是不是這樣"},{"start":13925.213,"end":13943.814,"text":"好 主委 本席這樣講完啦 我只想是說就是我們很理性科學因為我很敬重您願意再投入公職來為大家來服務但本席的提到真的 如果說真的有機會的話也跟上位者有權利決策的人真的也建議"},{"start":13944.875,"end":13954.993,"text":"就是說要務實大家務實面對但不是每一次面對環團講一套好聽的話然後面對產業講一套然後面對在野黨講一套"},{"start":13959.336,"end":13977.052,"text":"我是剛剛說這樣子就不是一個健康的態度所以我一開眾名就很肯定你今天願意講出說核電有助電價穩定這樣的一個說法因為這跟國人跟國際上的認知確實是相符合這也是現在國際上的趨勢好不好有沒有補充 各位"},{"start":13979.323,"end":13998.457,"text":"是的 謝謝各位 謝謝委員關心好 那就感謝本席會持續追這議題那我也關心我們的合一場的最終核廢料的部分那我也希望真的我們一起務實的往前邁進好不好 謝謝好 謝謝委員好 謝謝洪孟愷委員的詢答也謝謝陳主委"},{"start":14001.485,"end":14025.195,"text":"蘇清泉 蘇清泉委員 蘇清泉委員何欣淳 何欣淳 何欣淳委員林倩琪 林倩琪 林倩琪委員楊瓊英 楊瓊英 楊瓊英 楊瓊英委員林楚英 林楚英 林楚英委員蔡玉瑜 蔡玉瑜 蔡玉瑜委員今天詢答登記的委員已發言完畢詢答結束關於本次會議做以下結論報告及詢答完畢"},{"start":14026.115,"end":14052.908,"text":"委員所提的書面資料相關資料均列入記錄刊登公報對於委員質詢時要求提供的相關資料以及未能夠答覆的部分請相關機關盡速以書面答詢原子能法相關的修正草案另定期繼續審查報告委員會今日的議程處理完畢現在散會謝謝"},{"start":14072.09,"end":14072.93,"text":"感谢观看"}]}},{"id":"168751","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168751","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5880b40c5769f15ee8bd89059d307ff38d440c98c629e75c95c54bff74e4160829630984fb1b6e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","委員發言時間":"12:14:25 - 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謝謝主席這邊有請部長有請馮部長歐委員好是 部長好我想近期大家有看到一個新聞畫面就是高雄市最近出現一個紅太陽不知道您有沒有注意到這個有沒有注意到這件事情就是高雄在前幾天然後他們天空出現了一個紅太陽"},{"start":35.635,"end":62.175,"text":"這個有時候經過陽光的折射有時候真的會看到特別夕陽特別漂亮的時候的確是有可能這其實好像並不是在夕陽西下的時候的這個太陽而是就是在下午的時間出現這樣的這個紅太陽然後當時就是大家議論紛紛說這是不是有出現這個天氣的意象但是後來也有一些專家學者有說這個其實出現紅太陽就代表說有可能是我們的空氣"},{"start":64.017,"end":76.872,"text":"品質不好這個空氣當中出現有過多的懸浮微粒所以我懸浮微粒的濃度過高的時候它的比較短的波長光可能容易被散射反而使比較波長比較長的紅光"},{"start":79.255,"end":103.184,"text":"容易穿透因此形成太陽呈現這個紅太陽的這樣一個狀況就有這個太陽呈現偏紅的現象所以如果說這樣子的一個說法是正確的話是具有科學依據的話那就代表我們看到高雄的天氣看高雄的空氣事實上已經很糟糕達到一個不容忽視的一個程度"},{"start":103.744,"end":123.321,"text":"包委員這個要看是不是一天還是每天都是這樣那如果一天的話其實每天的這個陽光或大氣的狀況不一樣它散射的結果就會不一樣可是如果是常常會出現的話是不是就代表說高雄那個空氣的問題其實蠻嚴重因為我們知道其實在高雄市境內就有三座的火力發電廠興達"},{"start":125.623,"end":150.36,"text":"大陵还有南部发电厂其实大家知道这个发电厂它现在又是以燃煤为主所以呢它排放的这个空气排放的这个空污确实是蛮严重的对那本新有注意到就是说其实环境部在5月的时候曾经应该是去年5月吧曾经发布了这个空气品质政策排批书说2030年要将PM2.5要降到10维克2035年要降到8维克"},{"start":156.543,"end":180.851,"text":"可是本席今天來質詢之前我還去上了環境部所提供的空間品質監測網站然後看到像小港大流的PM2.5都是24點多23點多所以你們現在所發布的你們所推出的空品政策排評書裡面所談的PM2.5要下降到10微克以下有可能嗎"},{"start":181.431,"end":196.999,"text":"荷包委員你要看的是我們說的是平均值例如說高雄的去年的平均值是15.6維克全國是12.8高雄的確是比較高一點點但是其實這個每天每天的狀況我們是算一個年平均值來做一個目標"},{"start":199.417,"end":224.173,"text":"你認為高雄什麼時候可以降到8%?有可能嗎?基本上要非常的努力但是也跟委員報告其實整個高雄的確石化工業固定污染源的比例是全國裡面比較高的但是他的這個也有很多移動污染源各個縣市也都一樣其實造成空污的來源非常多元包含固定式移動石或是我們生活型態益善源都會造成這個空污"},{"start":225.254,"end":252.162,"text":"不是只有一個發電廠造成的因為有特別觀察到就是高雄他確實他的PM2.5你看如果說標準是10的話那WTO的PM2.5的標準其實是更低那麼代表說高雄此時此刻他的PM2.5的標準是超出正常標準的很多倍這難怪就是說為什麼台灣的肺癌比率很高但我們沒有去統計到底高雄市市民得到肺癌的比率是不是也是很高或許未來"},{"start":253.263,"end":268.861,"text":"这个部分我们已经跟卫福部有启动合作应该要有一个合作的计划了解全台湾的民众得肺癌到底出现在哪些城市比例是最高估计可能也就是高雄台中吧有电厂的地方不见得不见得"},{"start":269.341,"end":291.886,"text":"好的這話我很期待就說你們有這樣的一個計畫那另外還有就是說你們今年元旦的時候也正式啟動了PM0.1的監測本席在這邊認為說這是一個很重要的一個進展畢竟PM0.1的顆粒很小那麼它是同質量PM2.5的100倍然後更容易影響到健康可是目前全國只有設置6個監測站這6個監測站夠嗎是什麼樣的問題現在沒有辦法就是設置的比較多點"},{"start":299.348,"end":327.971,"text":"這個0.1它的儀器非常的貴因為它非常的精密所以全世界大概都是以一千萬人口設一個站為目標那我們其實只有三個站嘛學術也有三個站學術三個站所以實際上環境部這邊現在設置是三個站分別設置在哪裡北中南各一個來我們請我們司長一個設在三重一個設在台中一個設在台南都是僅離那個交通比較繁忙的地方來做設置做觀察"},{"start":328.536,"end":332.22,"text":"是因為本席認為說其實健康很重要那麼如果說像這樣一個監測是有意義的話這本席也希望就是環境部能夠這個可能下年度可以增加這個相關的監測設備的預算好那我們這樣的話可以有效的去控制"},{"start":346.335,"end":372.814,"text":"去了解整個台灣PM0.1的一個問題那最後就是本席要想問的就是說因為現在我們看到就是針對高風險區域像是鄰近工業區的學校譬如說桃園的樹林國小高雄竹後國小等等那麼這些都是被視為所謂空污的受難區可是環境部有沒有優先在這附近設置一些可以空氣品質的監測點然後甚至未來的PM0.1的設備也可以設置在附近"},{"start":376.056,"end":397.557,"text":"我們針對這些污染 在這個污染區 重工業污染區旁邊的學校我們在這個去年度就開始啟動一個新的這個幫忙他的計畫把污染源找出來然後提醒他們要特別的去助力 已經啟動了那高雄的比例的確是比較高所以我們高雄大概有八個點來九個點八個九個學校都在同步 現在正在監測當中"},{"start":398.598,"end":407.367,"text":"好的那謝謝我想因為今天時間的關係但是最後本席還是希望可以請環境部提供近三年來就是高雄市的空氣監測"},{"start":410.757,"end":434.779,"text":"就是空氣品質的監測的數據尤其是有超標的這個數據是不是可以請環境部可以提供給本席這樣的資料就是近三年來的這個高雄空氣品質超標的監測數據希望兩週之內就可以給我這份資料可以嗎是 我們都公開在網路上面那我們會再請同仁提供對 我想要超標的好不好好 謝謝謝謝翁小林委員發言"}]}},{"id":"168750","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168750","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5880b40c5769f154fa6e64c5933aef10d96ca025fdcb7c5c95c54bff74e41619ddf0aee35279f35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葛如鈞","委員發言時間":"12:04:15 - 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謝謝主席今天安排電信管理法第36條的詢問我們一起來關心台灣的國家通訊網路韌性的問題首先我們有請這個NCC的陳代理主委好 我們請陳代理主委"},{"start":35.407,"end":58.302,"text":"本席先前曾在上個會期總質詢的時候關心行政院所屬的各個部會對於通訊任性的立場不一致的問題直到目前為止NCC主管的電信管理法第36條還是有您剛剛提到的限制設置使用電信資源的公共電信網路者董事長要由中華民國國籍設置使用電信資源的業者"},{"start":59.122,"end":73.816,"text":"外國人直接持股總數不得超過49%直接及間接持股總數不得超過60%因此很多的外國衛星公司無法直接向台灣提供服務我覺得我們文字要清楚"},{"start":75.338,"end":90.87,"text":"可以來啊八成公司的架構可能可以來啊然後我透過誰來怎麼樣怎麼樣繞兩圈繞三圈我覺得這個我們都不是這樣因為各國已經都做給我們看了我們是最需要網路的國家我想大家都非常的清楚"},{"start":91.77,"end":107.029,"text":"即便這個速發布一直提到說強化國家認訊為政策目標數位認訊 通訊認訊但受限於這樣的一個法規其實台灣距離建構多元通訊網路真的還有很長的距離那我們今天"},{"start":107.91,"end":135.105,"text":"看見NCC審查報告我們看見一位英雄本席要感到非常欣慰為什麼呢因為感謝主委支持我們真正的通訊韌性的強化跟發展我們在法律修正案草擬的過程當中我們也不諱言有多次跟NCC的業務單位來進行溝通得到很多建議那NCC您在報告裡面就有提到如果要放寬電信管理法第36條設置使用電信資源之公眾電信網路者的董事長"},{"start":136.245,"end":151.71,"text":"國籍和外國人持股比例限制就放寬標準放寬範圍應具體明確這一點本席完全同意本席的修法版本本來就是要賦予主管機關專案核准的權限尊重專業嘛"},{"start":152.89,"end":177.492,"text":"如果NCC要以執法來明定董事長的國籍或外國人持股比例的放寬標準或放寬的範圍或者專案的條件本席表示支持那我們再次要謝謝主委在任內勇於承擔讓台灣的國家通訊認證信真的是要朝向正面積極那我也希望主委請回我這給您鼓勵因為您展現了這樣的一個方向"},{"start":177.992,"end":183.801,"text":"那我相信我們看得到出口那我們先請這個接下來請速發部林益晉部長"},{"start":192.486,"end":209.755,"text":"委員好部長好本席聽了4月8號速發部的業務報告的質詢部長當時答覆我們黃建豪召委的質詢提到對速發部對政府來說台灣有越多衛星通訊的選擇越好是這非常的棒是那對於部長的立場本席相當認同"},{"start":210.816,"end":231.658,"text":"有越多越大範圍的通信越好你說4G 5G還是有3G收救的問題還是有偏鄉的問題還是有緊急狀況的問題我想本席很認同您的整體概念這其實也是本席和黃建豪召委共同提出個別提出電信管理法第36條修法的目的台灣位處真的很重要的戰略位置"},{"start":232.279,"end":254.31,"text":"沒有網路我們沒有辦法經營商業沒有網路無人機很可能在緊急狀況也沒有辦法操控我們沒有辦法理解前線的戰事維持國家的通訊人心真的至關重要我就要問部長正當現在Right this moment本席在質詢部長您的時候部長知道負責我們國家國際和國內通訊的25條海欄當中有幾條是斷線或部分斷線的狀態嗎Right this moment"},{"start":258.691,"end":278.298,"text":"網友都很關心你應該要記在心中吧我沒有連線我那個腦子沒有連那個internet所以這個可能要查APP我們是不是請那個任信司司長好 那任信司司長趕快回答25條裡面現在有哪幾條有幾條是斷線或部分斷線報委員這應該每天每分鐘都要關心的嘛編那麼多預算來 多少"},{"start":278.778,"end":299.971,"text":"基本上國際海嵐總共是15條國內海嵐是10條所以跟你們報告那昨天我看到資料是7條海嵐現在有故障那其中一個故障的地方是很偏遠在馬來西亞那一段更不在台灣這一段但是我們還是把它統計出來沒關係啦 斷網率多少%28%啦其中斷線最久的多少時間你知道嗎"},{"start":301.232,"end":320.924,"text":"包委員 兩百四十四天包委員 我們平均在沒關係啊 你不要說什麼我們海嵐怎麼樣28%的海嵐是有問題的然後你說有的很遠我們沒辦法處理沒關係 韌性很重要嘛國防部印製的小局書就講了大規模的網路癱瘓多數海嵐遭破壞 這非常危險"},{"start":321.744,"end":349.753,"text":"台灣在非戰時期我們就已經有28%的海瀾網路那如果緊急狀態不是更可怕嗎我想速發部主責的通訊人員不是要讓我們遇到這樣的狀況嗎跟委員說明一下那個的確這個我們非常關心但是所謂的那個28%有故障所謂故障並不是全段很多海瀾因為海瀾你們每一條海瀾裡面都有很多條心不好意思部長我沒有提問啦你不用在這裡替海瀾全段那怎麼樣半段90分段"},{"start":350.913,"end":371.725,"text":"99分段我們都不要派船那你們預算要不要再重新來討論一下我想不是文字遊戲好不好我想我們有共同的意識把台灣阻礙國際的衛星業者提供服務的法規限制拿掉讓台灣在通訊更多元更廣冒這有其必要性我是在找我們的共通性"},{"start":372.885,"end":399.162,"text":"非常同意謝謝委員理解我會給你時間就給你時間因為我這個時間很有限那部長本席真的要再次強調衛星通訊服務的市場本來就是一個雙向的選擇我們今天要先把法規的門打開我們不能說美國要叫我們修美國對我們法規有沒有意見我們怎麼可以叫美國對我們的法規有意見呢如果真的有這樣的會議提供資料但沒有關係我想我們是有共識的"},{"start":399.642,"end":417.263,"text":"提高國外衛星通訊服務來台的意願這一點本來就是我們的責任增加台灣衛星通訊選擇的多元性對於強化台灣的通訊韌性有正面積極的幫助尤其剛剛提到的一些廠商像STARLINK已經開始運行二代衛星"},{"start":418.124,"end":444.943,"text":"這是目前最先進的通訊網路裡面一定也很多台灣的晶片結果呢 我們目前您提到的一些簽約的衛星服務商沒有辦法採用 也還沒採用我們不應該 也不能用法規來限制住國人使用最新衛星通訊科技的權利我們希望朝野共同支持啦我們剛剛也感謝非常多的委員也都共同跨黨派來支持所以也希望部長 我相信我們一起來具體認識一起來往前 可以嗎"},{"start":445.703,"end":469.569,"text":"非常感謝委員長那我想接下來還有一個細節因為這個影響到民眾的權益加一點點時間就是說部長我要來跟你討論速發布的打詐業務本席FB帳號就在前幾天被詐騙集團仿造了一個1比1的帳號來進行詐騙假帳號一字不漏的轉貼我發布的文章極可亂真主動就發邀請給我的朋友還邀請他們加入"},{"start":470.289,"end":489.158,"text":"這個我啦 這個假的我啦所創立的LINE投資群組還要先謝謝他一直支持我的法案耶說話一起建立富裕的社會免費加入投資群組然後呢 我趕快高速的飛奔到一個地方叫做打炸通茶網 為什麼"},{"start":490.339,"end":506.866,"text":"我們也花了預算結果我有用手機認證才能投案對不對其實你知道我是誰結果完成通報程序以後啪一聲在0.1毫秒的情況之下運作非常順暢的跳出這是低風險的案件還強調會優先處理高風險案件"},{"start":510.368,"end":522.764,"text":"請中低風險案件要耐心等候每一分每一秒我的朋友都在收到這些詐騙訊息叫他要去加入部長本席當時非常確定自己遭到詐騙集團假設帳號結果訴發部的通報啊卻判定低風險案件請問訴發部"},{"start":526.849,"end":548.56,"text":"通報的標準是什麼跟委員解釋一下因為這個也是之前有那個立法委員要求我們就是說必須利用AI的技術進行出判有要求很好啊因為這個是AI進行出判那依照我們的系統就是說接下來就會應該跟那個委員的辦公室聯絡然後只要委員這邊那個確定以後那我們後續就可以馬上處理了"},{"start":549.801,"end":573.682,"text":"您回去聽一下你的直播啦我想黃仁勳被騙要打給黃仁勳葛如君被騙要打給葛如君我都已經報案者是本人我已經提供我的手機了我甚至已經知道你是我知道我是誰了我想這裡有精進的空間AI模型不要自己立刻亂用完全同意AI模型有精進的空間不事情就算了還告訴民眾詐騙案件是屬於低風險"},{"start":574.262,"end":591.602,"text":"沒有這個就是AI我原講的完全沒錯就是因為AI的模型的判斷一定會有一些誤差所以我們還是需要人工來判斷這一點是我們都同意的會做事的人找辦法不會做事的人找理由找理由就說AI有問題完全同意我想不是這樣我們現在耐心處理"},{"start":592.663,"end":611.954,"text":"那結果現在如果很多人都遇到這樣的問題持續的造成損失我的朋友說不定都加入這些群組啊只要委員趕快回覆說這個是真的是詐騙那這個就是我已經報案了我已經報了什麼叫做我回覆你仔細說清楚什麼叫做我回覆你這個APP還有額外回覆功能嗎"},{"start":613.359,"end":642.285,"text":"就是有人報案以後我們會跟那個當事人做確認嘛對不對那如果是這樣的話那會後我們再把那個委員再加入我先跟部長講啦沒有什麼回不回覆所以這個AI要提升好不好所以我們跟部長是完全同意我也是這個意思本席被創立假帳號的案件因為向訴發部求助無效啦我沒有無效啦我現在你現在跟我求助我現在馬上就處理我是國會議員我可以在這裡向你求助"},{"start":642.665,"end":650.591,"text":"台灣千千百百萬個受到這個問題的人怎麼辦網站通報查詢網就被你弄到低風險不要再玩文字遊戲了每一分每一秒上三月份的詐騙金額是多少一個月詐騙金額是多少你有沒有刻在心裡嘛"},{"start":664.758,"end":689.205,"text":"有沒有刻在心裡49億台幣啊對 因為整個一點多隻獨角獸每一個月所以不要在這裡玩我們已經討論了將近兩年了對嘛 那有沒有改進當然有改進啊這個我之前有報告有報告啦沒有關係 我再問請教部長你認為政府官網上是不是應該存在下列內容色情文字與圖片 彰化"},{"start":691.345,"end":706.957,"text":"詐騙集團的LINE ID廣告文件文字民眾被盜的身份證民眾的個資這些應不應該出現應不應該出現不應該出現是很遺憾喔部長我們從第一天來到這裡跟您講"},{"start":708.39,"end":723.398,"text":"網詐通查網要好好的請部長通查一下這是網詐通查網的圖片我不好意思唸出來啦你要不要唸出來網詐通查政府部門的官方網站喔這是不是掛在Moda的官網底下是不是"},{"start":724.485,"end":733.389,"text":"部長回答是不是跟委員報告一下網站通報查詢網的網頁是不是在部會的官網底下是還是不是這個是網站通報查詢網的網頁內容沒有錯啊對嘛所以你要不要"},{"start":743.593,"end":763.624,"text":"我們不要念字了啦 這個字有點小啦因為在這個會席有其他委員跟部門的問題就是說為什麼我們把這個訊息 提醒民眾知道說有這個風險不堪入目的文字 我真的不好意思念出來字有點小 我這不念出來啦 大家看網路的直播啦"},{"start":764.864,"end":792.733,"text":"LINE ID詐騙集團LINE ID在剛剛網站上對還是不對我們就是告訴我們這個網頁的目的就是要告訴民眾這是不對的這是詐騙那幹嘛要秀出ID我們就要告訴人家說這個ID是有問題的啊不然呢那我剛剛已經問您了嘛那好啊那把詐騙集團的廣告文字全部放上來廣告詐騙集團的資料好那各自呢各自呢"},{"start":793.874,"end":800.702,"text":"假冒民眾的身份證 各自所以不要 真的不要再這個我想我們是一模一樣"},{"start":802.284,"end":824.221,"text":"我們還把他各自的人全部都在網站通查網該打蒙的圖面就打蒙該去除的文字內容就去除我已經講了 您剛剛也講了我現在講的所有內容我都是一年前都提出過模糊處理很難嗎 有沒有這個技術這需要AI嗎"},{"start":827.247,"end":838.961,"text":"不需要嘛所以沒關係啦維持網路安全的環境我們一起由速發部做起所以部長您剛剛也同你承諾打炸通茶網何時可以完成改善"},{"start":839.813,"end":860.995,"text":"我們一直在改善那你如果說要定一個時間改善那是不是那個時間之後我就不改善了嗎不是吧我是持續在改善啊我一直要改善如果說定了一個期限反而變成說我那個期限之後我就要再持續改善您回憶一下您剛剛講的這句話您給全國的師生做了最壞的示範你叫我交作業"},{"start":862.416,"end":884.085,"text":"那我現在如果教我告訴你我什麼時候教了我以後就不用教作業了嗎我完全原話喔所以我們不要玩文字遊戲我們都當過學生也當過老師所以什麼時候可以提出嘛什麼時候可以我還尊重您耶什麼時候可以提出改善我每個月都要提出改善如果要的話那我剛剛提出的問題您也說不應該存在的問題什麼時候會改善"},{"start":890.714,"end":904.893,"text":"我想委員你也是AI的專家AI一定有False Positive跟False Negative的問題我剛剛講的不雅的文字不雅的不對的爛ID有問題的圖片色情的東西這個不用AI喔"},{"start":905.954,"end":932.498,"text":"對 但是我們這個量這麼大你知道我們委員我們每天接收到多少的量如果說每一件我們都是用人工去檢查的話那你這樣會累死我們的人而且會讓我們整個打詐的系統癱瘓掉所以我們為什麼要用AI就是為什麼要用自動化方式處理就是因為我們要避免我們的打詐的系統被人家癱瘓因為這個詐騙集團他們也知道這個事情事實上所有的犯罪都是會用這一招想辦法"},{"start":932.898,"end":947.561,"text":"部長 主席已經站起來了我們都是技術人Line ID可不可以用RECX來處理是對嘛 圖片有不雅的 有人臉的我可不可以打懵這需要什麼很高強的AI嗎"},{"start":949.468,"end":966.284,"text":"好 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那個政治口號就出來了"},{"start":181.994,"end":196.15,"text":"那然後還有商總說他有接到壓力啊那經濟部有給他商總壓力嗎我沒有跟他聯絡你沒有那經濟部其他的我們是有同仁去跟那個糕餅公會問他說就是說"},{"start":197.071,"end":224.574,"text":"因為他就是說什麼有條件之下什麼開放什麼中小什麼市場那個意思到底是什麼那我們高屏公會跟我們回答是說喔他們要表達的是說因為過去他們我們出口到他們那邊的時候因為他的那個凱關的行政程序非常忙因為高屏他是有期限的如果那個期限太長的話就會壞掉他們希望說這個可不可以簡化那基本上這個跟所謂的今年的會談就沒有什麼關係嗎"},{"start":226.036,"end":243.357,"text":"講話也很好啊所以這個訴求我們同意啊我們也支持啊不是我說高品工會的訴求就是簡化流程那個部分所以你們不是給他壓力你們是關心一下說現在什麼狀況然後他跟你說可以簡化你就說好那來幫忙"},{"start":243.737,"end":269.522,"text":"對 我可以幫忙我覺得這就不錯啊這就站在業者角度嘛就盡量所以商總生氣商總還嗆聲說他也有選票我覺得不用這樣子啦我覺得不用這樣我覺得政府盡量幫忙不要意識形態然後第二個齁我昨天看到有那個反核團體去跟總統見面嘛然後還是反核啊然後有人轉述說總統在勸他們說哎呀現在狀況不一樣了啦電力供應不如預期啦"},{"start":270.763,"end":292.766,"text":"AI產業需求那第一步有評估嗎?現在是沒有辦法達到之前的電力供應的目標了嗎?就是說我們滾動式的嘛2032年之前2032年、2034年之前我們都已經評估好至少在這一段時間裡面電力的供應是沒有問題的電力供應沒問題但是它有沒有達到你的預期?有沒有?"},{"start":294.288,"end":321.282,"text":"這沒有問題啊我們有達到就是因為我們會估算就是說包括AI算力的需求等等一些需求所以你最新的這樣好不好你最新的那個預計譬如說我們的需電量是多少你把那所有的產業的發展全部算進來你就預期到2032嗎2034 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然後現在我們都知道說那一次的COP30是根據78名的技術專家從1000項裡面的一個所謂的indicator然後一直在簡化簡化或者說看最優先可以做的一直簡化成100項100項以後再選擇到52項所以其實是已經是在在很多的選項裡面做的最好的一些indicator所以希望這個到了台灣以後我們再做一些目標策略的時候"},{"start":174.452,"end":195.267,"text":"再次犧牲我們原鄉地區比如說我們在講的他所謂的poverty就是貧窮或者說生計的時候結果他沒有相對應的一個所謂的機制結果到最後又被犧牲掉所以我們後來又會看到跟第三第三期那個其他領域的時候會被隱形化也就是說看不到我們全球它需要一個調適目標結果"},{"start":197.449,"end":219.169,"text":"我們有看到儲平生計文化遺產之事可是到了第四期國外因為它的困難度太高了它又被犧牲所以我希望有三個建議給衛福部參考就是明確來劃分主責機關告訴國人氣候邊線下的民眾生計保障跟在地文化保護到底要由誰來主責第二個就是國際指標對照的時候我們應該"},{"start":220.71,"end":242.87,"text":"應該不是把自己的門關起來定標準而是精準對應到聯合國最新的調試指標上面第三個就是希望能夠把預算標籤制度把它 把戰本攤在陽光下讓清楚標示每一個預算的流線讓大家知道說有多少資源真正落實在缺二弱群體跟社會保護上面我希望環境部至少這三點可以做這樣一個順便報告給我"},{"start":246.012,"end":272.728,"text":"這個委員這沒有問題但是我其實最源頭就是調適要投入多大的預算當然現在我們有一個調適的框架把我們現在認為做調適的東西都放進去但是跟離我必須跟你坦承我跟委員說就是真實的調適全世界都一樣不是說我們台灣做得不好其實要放在這上面這個都是一個很大的理想例如說委員站的委員提到的預算標籤的制度但是這個部份真的實際上要做有點難"},{"start":273.769,"end":283.971,"text":"但是我們會努力因為這個大家會對防災有感對長期調適大家覺得說啊這個短期又看不到所以就自然而然會把它剃到很後面的位置"},{"start":284.625,"end":307.9,"text":"最後一個是生技的問題 比如說我們現在看到這些我們企業變遷成績的說是硬體設施 可是應該是還是有些無形文化在地知識跟基層生技 結果我們現在只要看到就是說災情的時候 其實只看到災後發放救助金這樣子然後文化問題還是停留在災後修古蹟 可是我們其實常常會看到就是說"},{"start":308.4,"end":327.451,"text":"我們其實我們的記憶是被迫中斷傳統領域無法進入然後在地知識被排除在決策之外所以其實我們常常在需要真正原住民智慧的時候我們就被排除在我的意思是這樣所以目前這個調適制度的一個缺口我希望能夠多管那各個部會跟"},{"start":328.832,"end":339.482,"text":"跟原住民的所謂的我們在地的生活經驗能夠納入這個知識體系讓我們的真正的在地知識體系能夠被國家所認同跟引用"},{"start":340.784,"end":360.357,"text":"這個我們也要來努力因為這個也涉及到跨部會的這個協調我是覺得我會跟原民會來討論這個議題還有第三個就是我們希望能夠有一些調適性的社會保護怎麼說呢就是在預防性的撤離安置的時候呢其實他是沒有津貼的也就是說"},{"start":360.937,"end":387.933,"text":"他本來在這個區塊他可以生活可以自己自主可是他被安置的時候他沒有地方可以工作沒有地方可以去種植東西結果他就等於是要靠天賜要完全靠救濟來生活是不是在這個安置津貼上面可以做從中的規劃還有就是說他氣候造成他的生計沒有辦法繼續工作的時候是不是也有一個支持的機制來納入我們以後再做這個所謂的"},{"start":388.874,"end":409.389,"text":"Poverty或者是生計的考量的時候是不是能夠把它列入我們實質的一個計畫裡面委員你提到這個非常好但是這個要實際上做真的是跨部會要去做尤其是你提到的這個調適型的社區保護或是說無形的文化這個部分我們會來跟跨部會來討論這個事情把調適的計畫把它放進去"},{"start":411.99,"end":433.479,"text":"最後的是我還是跟部長有一些交流加拿大的他們真的有把我們原住民的知識體系納入他們的所謂的知識體系他們已經把它加入國家的調適架構而不是停留在一個協辦的層級讓加拿大原住民真正的去幫助他們在地怎麼去跟大自然生活"},{"start":434.519,"end":450.351,"text":"紐西蘭的話它是把社會參與跟主人權益跟費用分攤都一起納入所以它有一些所謂的保護調適避免暴露或者是清理這些種種的新的政策都讓我們在台灣的原住民會耳目一新會覺得說"},{"start":451.372,"end":480.131,"text":"紐西蘭政府怎麼可以那麼尊重原住民把原住民的意見納入他們國家層級的一個概念日本的話我們是很欣賞他們的一些緊急避難所指定避難所跟指定福祉避難所的制度化他們利用學校體育館社區的設施去承接不同階段的避難需求所以我們台灣要做的其實當然很多不過就接近我們鄰近國家或者說像日本或者是有原住民的國家做這些"},{"start":481.393,"end":488.926,"text":"很指標性的參考我覺得我們的進步會更快好 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馬上請找那個主委好 我們請主委葉委員好主委好 我想陳錫剛那個委員問的有關於就是我們榮民的就業問題因為其實說真的我們有一些不管是軍官也好士兵也好他們退伍是因為法定年紀到了他退 但他還非常的年輕"},{"start":26.661,"end":41.08,"text":"你如果讓他們在家裡沒有事做其實對我們社會也是一個損失我覺得有很多剛退下來的那些軍官士官他可以做的事情非常多但是他現在就受一個限制你知道是什麼嗎你們知道是什麼嗎"},{"start":45.743,"end":63.741,"text":"他們受到的限制就是只要他去應徵就是有公家資源所挹注的公司或機關或單位的話他只能夠領最低薪資不然否則的話他就必須要放棄他的終身縫這個卓偉您知道嗎"},{"start":64.761,"end":83.486,"text":"那現在面對我們整個就業市場人才的缺乏其實我覺得退府會應該要大力的去幫這些農民去爭取應該要打開這個天花板那我覺得從兩個層面來談這件事第一個層面就是我們這個社會缺人啊"},{"start":84.306,"end":107.901,"text":"譬如說像我就很關心教育校園現場的校安問題那現在學校裡面是有校安人員 沒有錯但是校安人員如果可以由退伍的軍人去擔任的話事實上因為他們有受過訓練然後他們知道怎麼面對一些危機他絕對比其他人懂得怎麼去處理一些校園安全的問題"},{"start":108.982,"end":122.002,"text":"可是問題是他們要來就沒辦法 為什麼呢因為有些可能是公立學校啊有些是私立學校可能有拿政府的補助啊沒有辦法啊否則 那個薪水會超過他能夠領的最低薪資嘛"},{"start":123.305,"end":146.907,"text":"所以這個退輔會我覺得你應該要去盤點一下他們的這些需求然後去幫忙去爭取那第二個齁其實我直接從道理上面來講當初為什麼那些軍公教他退伍之後或退休之後會被限制只能領在就業的話只能領最低薪資因為以前他們薪水比較高啊他們退休領的比較多啊"},{"start":148.25,"end":172.241,"text":"那後來年改之後他所領的也沒有像以前這麼多那你的天花板還依然在那邊你把人家退休領的東西砍了結果人家要憑自己的勞力去再就業對不起你還是有天花板天花板沒有提高這樣合理嗎第三件事情我們國家並不是平白屋給他們錢我們國家他是憑著自己的勞力在賺錢"},{"start":173.973,"end":181.553,"text":"那只是你給他一個限制而已所以從這幾個方面來講這個我都希望退府會能夠幫這些農民去爭取"},{"start":182.335,"end":211.334,"text":"那像我自己就覺得那些退伍的農民他除了可以去幫忙做教官他可以做一些這個國防的教官啊對不對他也可以做很多講師啊現在不是政府都很強調什麼民防嗎 民力啊 任性啊你如果由退伍的軍人來做講師的工作不是非常適合嗎為什麼不要然後導致於現在有很多人退伍以後一些人退伍以後他們都戲稱好像都只能做三保啦"},{"start":212.233,"end":239.722,"text":"那麼比較多的人去做這個保險然後不然就是做保全然後不然就做開計程車司機等等有一些人就去做這個工作但他們也許他們想要再幫國家做事啊就被限制啦那我覺得你如果把那個天花板打開其實你對於募兵也有幫助為什麼因為當一個年輕人他決定要投入這個軍旅生活的時候他也會考慮他退休之後的生活嗎"},{"start":241.45,"end":264.127,"text":"假設他知道說他退休 離了中生份 五十幾歲很年輕退休只能找工作會有一定的限制 那他可能就會考慮啦應該我覺得大部分人退伍之後還會再希望做份工作嘛所以從這幾個面向來講的話畢竟你現在是退伍會主委 但你之前做過非常多重要的位置"},{"start":265.336,"end":282.34,"text":"國安會秘書長 國防部長 洞見觀瞻如果你願意去幫忙推動這個事情幫退伍的這些弟兄們號召一下我相信這個會有很有影響力不知道主委您有沒有願意我來提會委員的關心對農民的照顧尤其就業這方面這個"},{"start":284.761,"end":307.191,"text":"天花板就是三萬八這塊那我想跟委員報告因為這個是來自於陸海空軍事務跟服役條令這是主政機關是國防部那委員就指導我想我們也會我們其實前面已經在找國防部相關主政機關來一起研討因為他主政機關要必須要做一些調整或修正或者什麼樣的反應那我們會找他們再來做研討把我們現在"},{"start":308.311,"end":336.057,"text":"在執訓在就職這一塊農民所碰到的一些困難跟問題或限制因為他在私人機構是沒有這個問題公家醫院就會碰到剛剛委員所講的這些一些省略的一些困難所以我想我們會找國安部一起來研商看怎麼樣來有一個很好的一個方法來解套你從農民的角度出發嘛去跟他講嘛雖然是主政機關是他可是我們農民有這個需求啊"},{"start":336.477,"end":354.583,"text":"所以委員剛剛講的一個重點就是有利你招募你就可以打開之後大家都願意去因為叫他退了之後他的職場很寬廣沒有限制公司他都可以去任職所以絕對是有利招募然後對我們就業市場就像我們講校園的安全雙贏所以我們會找他那你什麼時候會找他"},{"start":361.818,"end":390.421,"text":"你有做過部長嗎 下面其實很多人都是您的那個以前的屬下你等一下就可以找了啊前面來委員會就有委員關心過所以我們已經有知會他們了知會他們那這樣好不好主委 因為我比較喜歡有一個時程啦不然每次都大約在冬季這樣就沒有什麼結論你講一個日期好不好就是說你可以比如說一個月還是兩個禮拜你可以跟國防部討論這個事情然後你一個初步的意見出來好不好用跨部會的"},{"start":391.021,"end":417.219,"text":"你現在要修法嘛對不對就你一個我們有跨部會的一些會議透過跨部會的會議跨部會的會議什麼時候預計是在六月份六月所以你會在跨部會的會議的時候把這個議題列進去 討論那你開完會會議記錄給我好不好好那一定要盡量促成啦好不好主委可以嗎好 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Harp"},{"start":1504.915,"end":1532.642,"text":"出席委員已足法令人數我們現在開會請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄立法院第十一屆第五會期交通委員會第八次全體委員會議議事錄時間中華民國一百一十五年四月二十日星期一上午九時至十二時地點本院紅樓二零一會議室出席委員萬美玲等十四人列席委員洪玉祥等二人列席官員國家運輸安全調查委員會主任委員林信德等"},{"start":1533.342,"end":1542.339,"text":"主席黃昭吉委員建豪報告事項宣讀上次會議議事錄決定議事錄確定邀請國家運輸安全調查委員會列席報告業務概況並備質詢"},{"start":1545.219,"end":1572.833,"text":"本日會議由國家運輸安全調查委員會主任委員林信德報告後暨由委員洪孟凱等14人提出質詢均經主任委員林信德及相關人員分別予以答覆決定一報告及詢答完畢二委員洪玉祥所提書面質詢列入記錄並刊登公報三委員於質詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答覆部分請國家運輸安全調查委員會盡速以書面答覆散會宣讀完畢"},{"start":1577.449,"end":1602.315,"text":"好 那個我們意識度稍後再來確定那我們現在先介紹在場委員翁曉琳委員葛如居委員以及現在列席的官員國家通訊傳播委員會代理主委陳崇樹主委數位部部長林一進部長"},{"start":1605.848,"end":1633.798,"text":"再來是國家統一傳播委員會主任秘書黃文哲同樣是NCC綜合規劃處處長溫俊瑜基礎設施處處長梁柏舟平台事業管理處處長詹奕蓮電台與內容事務處處長林慧玲網際網路傳播辦公室參事監主任詹文旭法律事務處副處長謝佩穎"},{"start":1637.182,"end":1658.72,"text":"主計師主任陳月淳在速發部資源管理師司長曾文芳任性建設師司長牛杏仁數位策略師司長蔡壽權法治處副署長吳怡倫數位產業署通訊傳播組副組長陳惠惠"},{"start":1664.381,"end":1690.943,"text":"經營管會政企局證券發行組副組長陳湘瑩內政部民政司專委戴淑黃經濟部商業發展署副署長劉雅娟法部專委邱離芬行政院主計總署公務預算處專委林培源基金預算處專委戴群芳"},{"start":1693.148,"end":1713.037,"text":"好 我們再補充一下在場委員 萬美玲委員到現場我們現在處理報告事項二 有關114年度國家通訊傳播委員會主管預算解凍案計時案 請議事人員宣讀"},{"start":1716.104,"end":1733.782,"text":"報告事項二處理一百一十四年度中政府總預算附屬單位預算關於國家通訊傳播委員會主管預算凍結案計時案國家通訊傳播委員會函檢送通訊傳播監督管理基金一至七一新增決議第一項修理保養及保護費預算凍結一百萬元案"},{"start":1734.262,"end":1756.511,"text":"二新增決議第二項專業服務費之辦理行動通信及有限電視採取案件輸送費及法律諮詢費預算凍結十分之一案三新增決議第三項服務費用向下推展費預算凍結五分之一案四新增決議第六項雜項設備租金預算凍結十分之一案五新增決議第七項服務費用之一般服務費預算凍結十分之一案"},{"start":1757.995,"end":1783.912,"text":"六 新增決議第八項盤點亞太經濟合作會議會員經濟體推動符合性評鑒程序現況遭遇困難及嚴提深化合作方案委託研究預算凍結十分之一案七 新增決議第九項傳播事務監理計畫預算凍結十分之一案國家通訊傳播委員會函檢送有限廣播電視事業發展基金八至十八 新增決議第一項有限電視普及發展與災害復建補助計畫預算凍結六百萬元案"},{"start":1786.594,"end":1802.461,"text":"9.新增決議第二項有限電視普及發展與災害復健補助計畫向下捐助補助與獎助預算凍結十分之一案10.新增決議第三項捐助補助與獎助超高畫質與數位應用加值服務建置費預算凍結十分之一案 宣讀完畢好 宣讀完畢那我們做以下決定報告四項"},{"start":1811.198,"end":1820.025,"text":"那個我們剛剛的這個報告事項二的部分我們待我們本位委員到現場到期之後我們再進行後續的這個決定喔"},{"start":1831.943,"end":1851.617,"text":"那我們現在接著進行本日的會議討論事項我們先審查電信管理法有限廣播電視法廣播電視法修正案及處理114年度國家通訊傳播委員會主管預算解凍案G3案我們先進行提案說明請提案委員說明提案要旨我們第一位我們先請翁曉琳委員提案說明"},{"start":1860.732,"end":1880.011,"text":"主席還有在場的官員委員還有媒體朋友大家好我首先先感謝黃金豪召委排案審查有限廣播電視法和廣播電視法的修正案那今天我也提出了兩個修正案核心的目的其實只有一個就是要讓廣電三法關於黨政軍退出媒體條款的規範內容邏輯是一致的把不合時宜的處罰機制修正過來"},{"start":1885.316,"end":1888.378,"text":"其實大家很清楚過去黨政軍退出媒體的法規因為對於間接投資的定義不清楚而且處罰對象也不合理那麼他不處罰投資持股的"},{"start":1898.857,"end":1922.088,"text":"政府政党反而是处罚被投资的媒体业者也就是把政府政党违法的账算在媒体业者的头上那么导致实务上也出现很多不合理的处罚那这对于媒体经营业者来说是非常不公平而且也影响产业的公平的发展那今年1月30号的时候本院呢已经三读通过了卫星广播电视法的修正案"},{"start":1922.788,"end":1928.39,"text":"那麼當時我們也採納了NCC的對岸明確規範了黨政軍退出媒體的法則也就是第五條及第五十條那麼我們將處罰對象從媒體經營業者然後轉為落實監督違規的政府與政黨那法規要處罰的是真正具有控制力的政府政黨和特定人員而不是懲罰被投資的媒體"},{"start":1947.598,"end":1961.684,"text":"但是這樣修法利益良善了對媒體業者有利的法案行政院卓榮泰至今都還沒有附屬這個法案賴清德總統也沒有一線來公布這部法律那嚴重影響到損害業者的權益雖然說民進黨政府違法違憲擺爛不公布法律但是呢這不會影響立法院要撥亂反正修改惡法的態度和決心"},{"start":1976.38,"end":2003.875,"text":"有盡於衛廣業者、有廣業者和廣電業者這三種媒體本質是一致的那麼廣電三法黨政軍推出媒體的精神和規範邏輯也是向來是一致的因此法規本來就不應該有差別待遇那本席這次提出的這個法案的內容就是直接引用去年已經通過經過NCC認可的條文目的就是要讓這三部法律的標準是全部同步"},{"start":2005.96,"end":2030.897,"text":"這件事情在去年這個法案在去年的交通委員會審查物管法的時候大家其實都已經討論得很清楚了那麼朝野也有共識那為了要讓產業有更明確的遊戲規則並且落實我們已經達成的修法方向那讓我們就盡快的把這三部法規補齊調整一致完成最後的一里路那最後也謝謝希望所有的委員都能夠支持這項修法以上"},{"start":2035.814,"end":2044.177,"text":"好 我們謝謝翁小玲委員然後因為我們現在在場的本委員會已經打法定人數請問一下我們各位委員對議事錄有沒有意見"},{"start":2046.394,"end":2066.238,"text":"有意見嗎沒有好沒有意見議事部確定那我們現在處理剛剛的報告事項二做以下決定報告事項預算解凍案114年度中央政府總預算附屬單位預算案決議個案書面報告已送達均予以備查提報院會好那麼接下來請葛如軍委員進行提案說明"},{"start":2075.177,"end":2098.246,"text":"謝謝主席各位在場的立委同僚以及列席官員全國關心衛星通訊發展的朋友們各位媒體記者朋友大家好今天要向大家說明為什麼我們要提出電信管理法第36條修正案原因非常清楚就是台灣的通訊韌性不能等而且不能再孤注一擲不能單押在海底電纜上我們應該要一起全面提升台灣的通訊韌性"},{"start":2099.506,"end":2125.654,"text":"這件事非常具有必要性和急迫性根據國防部印製的當危機來臨時的小局書啊台灣在面臨軍事威脅的時候可能出現的重要情境之一就是重要基礎設施受損多數海底電纜遭到破壞導致大規模的網路癱瘓而我國目前的通訊卻高度的依賴海底電纜強化通訊的韌性早就已經不是技術的問題而是國安的問題"},{"start":2126.614,"end":2151.452,"text":"這次修法的目的就是要讓台灣的通訊架構從過去單一依賴的路徑走向更安全更多倍元的多元網路本席要在此嚴正的提醒世界各國早就已經為了新的衛星科技打開法規的大門台灣已經沒有時間也沒有條件在原地踏步了今天NCC的書面報告特別提到了日本"},{"start":2152.932,"end":2172.517,"text":"韓國、荷蘭、菲律賓、越南等等的國家為了強化山區、離島、偏鄉、海上的通訊覆蓋包括搜救以及急難甚至國家安全的一個狀態都已經紛紛透過法規鬆綁或者專案認定的方式和STARLINK合作推出手機直連衛星的服務"},{"start":2173.897,"end":2194.048,"text":"甚至進一步將衛星通訊視為災害應變的重要的一環換句話說日本可以 韓國可以 荷蘭可以 菲律賓可以 越南可以為什麼台灣不可以問題就在於我國現行的電信管理法第36條對設置使用電信資源的公眾電信網路者"},{"start":2194.548,"end":2216.489,"text":"人設有董事長國籍以及外國人持股比例的限制這使得外國通訊業者即使有意來台提供服務也很難直接進入台灣市場法規如果不調整台灣就算知道要提升通訊韌性多元衛星也會永遠被法規制度卡關本席要再次強調此次提出的修法版本"},{"start":2217.954,"end":2237.731,"text":"並非毫無根據的全面開放而是授權主管機關專案審查專案核准也就是說只有在主管機關綜合考量我國公眾電信網路安全電信資源使用以及市場發展國家安全以及公共利益以後確認沒有不利影響"},{"start":2238.351,"end":2267.592,"text":"才可以放寬現行限制這不是放棄把關而是讓政府在保守國家安全的前提之下替台灣爭取更多的選擇更多的備援更高的通訊韌性今天其他國家已經把門打開積極的引進新一代的衛星通訊技術台灣如果還在用過去的法規把國際衛星的多元服務擋在門外受損的將不會是特定公司而是我們中華民國的國家安全"},{"start":2268.132,"end":2289.544,"text":"所以這一次的修法是為了讓台灣真正的建立陸海空三萬一體的通訊韌性的架構讓我們在平時有更多的選擇在災時有更多的備援在非常時期能夠維持國家的運作我們所有的一切包含要了解前線的戰事要運用我們的國防的系統都需要網路"},{"start":2290.484,"end":2313.102,"text":"多元的衛星的通訊所以不只是陸海空甚至包含太空都應該在我們的範圍當中別的國家可以台灣沒有任何理由不行我們再次誠摯的呼籲朝野各個政黨行政部門與社會各界共同支持這一次的修法讓台灣的通訊安全通訊韌性真正跟得上時代也跟上國家安全的需要謝謝大家的支持 謝謝"},{"start":2316.86,"end":2327.778,"text":"好 謝謝葛如君委員的提案說明那我們接下來請列席機關報告請這個NCC國家中心傳播委員會陳崇樹代理主委報告 法案跟凍結案一起報告"},{"start":2343.399,"end":2369.236,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士先生大家好那今天應邀列席貴委員會就審查委員葛玉君等20人擬拒定管法36條在委黃建豪等18人擬拒定管法36條草案提出本會意見敬請指教國家通訊傳播委員會對委員所提各修正草案的回應說明提案重點請參閱書面資料"},{"start":2372.934,"end":2398.795,"text":"本會議件一 現行電信管理法外置限制的說明現行電信管理法第36條第4項到第6項對外置限制對象為設置使用電信資源之公眾電信網路者考量使用電信資源的公眾電信網路攸關國內網路安全資源利用等公共利益而無線電頻率屬於稀有資源涉及電信網路訊號數位軌跡等記錄"},{"start":2402.037,"end":2423.473,"text":"已由我國人民取得及經營較為妥適故設置此類公共電信網路者的組織型態及負責人資格有特別規範除法律另有規定外應符電信管理法第36條第4項及第5項分別規定董事長應具有中華民國國籍及股份公司的規定"},{"start":2424.81,"end":2453.09,"text":"以使能承担责任令也要维持一定比例的本国资本限制比例与电信法时期相同外资直接持股比例不得超过49%直接加间接不得超过60%这个也是符合我国当年加入WTO入会服务业承诺表对于外国人持股的最低标准二目前国际卫星在台湾落地得提供的方式"},{"start":2454.21,"end":2482.923,"text":"國立衛星業者在符合我國電信管理法36條的外資規定下目前在臺落地的提供服務並遵循相關電信事業登記申請無線電頻率申請營運計畫及網路設計劃核准以及通訊監察機關認可等規定國立通訊衛星業者也可以跟我國電信業者洽談合作由我國電信事業提供衛星通訊服務及遵守電信法鎖定的義務"},{"start":2484.605,"end":2501.367,"text":"例如中華電信與OneWeb合作提供衛星通訊服務模式就是外國衛星公司他僅提供容量供本地登記的電信事業從事衛星通訊服務且為直接提供衛星通訊服務給台灣的終端用戶使用"},{"start":2502.423,"end":2523.775,"text":"由本地業者申請使用頻率外國電信通信公司可以不需要申請使用頻率及登記為我國電信事業並在電信詐騙防制的部分由合作的我國電信事業負責辦理三 國立外信業者在臺灣營運的法尊營業部分"},{"start":2525.489,"end":2553.776,"text":"委員提案修訂電信管理法36條僅系放寬外資比例國際衛星通訊業者如果想要在臺灣經營還需要辦理事項配合的義務有以下幾點第一因為國際衛星通訊業者不透過代理商則需申請平均使用取得電信資源一電信管理法需要辦理電信失業登記而且相關公司登記還需要仍然要依公司法來辦理二"},{"start":2554.896,"end":2576.089,"text":"國際微信業者在臺落地提供服務除了需要符合電信管理法36條外資限制規定外還需要遵循有關定時4月登記、申請無線電頻率、申請營運計畫、網路事務計畫及通訊檢查機關認可此外還要需負擔一般義務、特別義務及指定法定義務等法尊義務"},{"start":2578.278,"end":2606.678,"text":"這包括通訊監察義務提供緊急電話遵守頻率秩序配合緊急動員等又外國的公司如果登記使用電信資源的之後NCC依據特別義務的電信事業任命標準認定業者應要負責的特別義務如定型化契約服務品質終者服務通知加入電信消費爭議處理中心等"},{"start":2607.751,"end":2626.157,"text":"三國際衛星通訊業者辦理電信事業登記後他的訊物如果是經過國外電信網路接接到我國的國際交換機最後由我國通訊網路連接到國內的售貨用戶的話此類通訊是為國際來話必須導入國際來話攔阻機制如果他的訊物是國內化物則應該比照現行防炸的機制來辦理四"},{"start":2637.285,"end":2663.274,"text":"NCC為電信事業監理機關涉及事業治理與消費者保護等且與電信事業的營運計畫管理有關事項應配合本會的規定辦理五目前開放外資限制的國家如日本、荷蘭、菲律賓、越南等仍然要求其應該在該國設立公司或設置Gateway以落實通訊監察六"},{"start":2666.081,"end":2678.593,"text":"如果你放寬使用設置電信資源的公共電信網路者他的董事長國籍及外國人持股比例就放寬的標準放寬的範圍應該要具體明確使得合理預見電信產業經營的資格三 給予"},{"start":2689.147,"end":2717.127,"text":"NCC委定事業監理機關有關增進36條第9項放寬衛星通訊技術使用電信資源及公共電信網路者的董事長國籍及外資比例限制建議人應審酌國際衛星通訊服務對臺灣公共電信網路安全、電信資源使用情形、電信服務市場整體發展國家安全、監禁障礙區防堵及其他公共利益等因素"},{"start":2718.732,"end":2738.148,"text":"並以傾聽多方利害關係人意見後予以綜合通盤考量那第二份報告關於有廣法廣電電視法的修正部分提案重點各個委員的提案重點部分請參閱書面資料本會意見"},{"start":2743.687,"end":2760.104,"text":"衛星廣播電視法的黨政軍條款第五條及第五十條已經在今年一月三十日三讀通過廣電三法的黨政軍條款建議為一致性的處理對委員所提草案個別意見如下一"},{"start":2760.993,"end":2789.327,"text":"有廣法第四條部分委員陳雪生版本與未廣法第五條只有放寬比例上的不同委員版本是10%衛星廣播電視法三途通過版本是1%二委員傅坤祺版本將進行投資區隔但是不得介入及控制這個條款在實際上難以認定黨軍條款恐怕也不易執行"},{"start":2790.856,"end":2805.687,"text":"三 温晓琳委员仅删除党军条款的罚则部分这一部分对违反党军条款没有罚则这将会使得党军条款失去预期的功能"},{"start":2807.41,"end":2828.101,"text":"4.委員問小林版本第四案修正58條第二項仍以系統經營者為處罰對象規則對象相對不合理建議參照衛廣法三讀通過的版本來做一致性處理2.廣播電視法的部分兩案第一案委員問小林"},{"start":2829.38,"end":2838.245,"text":"版本第五案修正44條之二第一項第二款到第四款及第二項以民營廣播電視事業及廣播電視事業為處罰對象"},{"start":2841.929,"end":2859.565,"text":"其規則對象不合理 建議參照今年1月30日刪除通過的衛廣法50條議項的規定來修正二 委員溫小林版本第六案僅刪除黨徑條款的罰則部分那建議這個還是要比照這個衛廣法來處理"},{"start":2863.325,"end":2887.646,"text":"結與本案涉媒體的中立的維護及產業的發展NCC認同廣電三法的黨軍軍條款可修不可廢立場並俯以相關配套措施建議考量為一致性處理第三個報告部分關於NCC114年度主管的附屬單位預算解凍報告部分"},{"start":2890.515,"end":2908.847,"text":"114年度通訊傳播通訪基金傳播室監理計畫下的服務費用及退場費的預算凍結十分之一的部分為落實大院總預算的要求本會在108年起及開始辦理廣電媒體專業素養賠利及公民賠利推廣計畫在"},{"start":2912.897,"end":2931.006,"text":"廣電媒體專業培訓培力的部分我們針對廣電從業人員辦理專業培訓以提升法規認知強化智力及提升內容品質在公民培力的部分我們對於社會大眾辦理公民培力以增進傳播產業的認識提升媒體素養基本能力"},{"start":2931.866,"end":2957.593,"text":"二 依據神經院主計處規範計畫中非禁由媒體辦理的宣導經費例如活動、說明會、宣導品等應編列推展費本計畫編列五十萬元用於專業訓練及供應培力宣導品製作三 本會將持續辦理此計畫透過多元推廣方式提升廣電專業人員的素質促使業者自播優質節目"},{"start":2959.195,"end":2967.992,"text":"二、114年度通常基金網際網路傳播計畫向下的服務費用的推展費凍結二分之一的部分"},{"start":2969.605,"end":2994.708,"text":"本項預算是本會配合相關辦理相關宣導活動及製作宣導品包括委託民間團體辦理兒少上網安全教育宣導及各級校園宣導網路素養活動委託專業廠商辦理網際網路內容防護機構的宣導品製作委託辦理民眾網路素養培力及業者教育訓練計畫等等"},{"start":2997,"end":3009.069,"text":"三114年度通財基金網際網路傳播計畫向下媒體政策及業務宣導費預算凍結二分之一部分為向社會大眾宣導"},{"start":3010.857,"end":3037.059,"text":"網路平台額紹防護設定方式與台灣網路新聞自立聯盟成立的相關事宜本會運用本項預算設計製作網路平台額紹的設定懶人包以使民眾了解防護的設定以達成提升公民網路傳播素養的目標也辦理台灣網路新聞自立聯盟成立的記者會以宣導"},{"start":3038.26,"end":3058.047,"text":"宣传其协力规划的网络新闻自立机制的方式使民众知悉网络新闻的申诉管道同时吸引更多网络新闻业者自愿加入达成促进网络平台业者自立的目标以实现保障言论自由维护使用者权益建立安全可信赖环境"},{"start":3059.639,"end":3080.133,"text":"以上三件報告 答應關切議題本會均以詳語說明 相關預算及相關法規修正本會的進步 敬請各位委員會議支持好 謝謝陳榮書主委那我們接下來請訴發部林一慶部長報告部長我們掌握時間喔 謝謝"},{"start":3090.407,"end":3107.008,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士先生大家早今天書房部應邀列席貴委員會就審查委員葛如君等20人及委員黃建豪等18人分別擬具《電信管理法》第36條條文修正草案提出書面報告並被質詢進行指教"},{"start":3108.75,"end":3123.728,"text":"電信管理法第36條董事長及國籍及外國人持股比例之限制是我國在民國91年1月1日加入世界貿易組織WTO時談判互惠與承諾的底線電信管理法依據"},{"start":3125.786,"end":3148.065,"text":"電信管理法具以明定相關的要求確保市場市區為增進我國的通訊韌性我國自民國111年底起及積極開放並受理電信事業申請衛星通信用無線電頻率配合配截至目前為止已經有四家本國的電信事業分別與OneWeb SES"},{"start":3149.397,"end":3165.342,"text":"UtelSat以及Astronis等國外衛星業者合作依循電信管理法相關規定向本部提出申請通過審查並獲配頻率順利將國際衛星服務引入台灣考量外資持股限制攸關我國對"},{"start":3167.122,"end":3192.679,"text":"WCO的承諾以及整體經貿利益電信管理法第36條修正案需就其政策影響 廣泛收集各界意見北部將與通常會 經貿談判辦公室等機關共同研議以上報告 敬請指教好 謝謝林益基部長那其餘機關所送書面報告 我們都列入紀錄 刊登公報"},{"start":3194.022,"end":3213.545,"text":"我們現在進行詢答先詢答以下事項詢答時間出席委員5加2分鐘列席委員4加1分鐘委員發言登記在10點30分截止各位委員如果有臨時提案請在10點前提出以便議事人員會診我們暫定10點30分休息10分鐘現在請登記第一位委員外美林委員發言"},{"start":3222.389,"end":3228.74,"text":"好 謝謝昭偉那因為時間有限我想是不是可以請陳重樹主委跟林盈靜部長一起上來來 請陳主委 請林部長"},{"start":3235.731,"end":3254.527,"text":"委員長好 謝謝我想先請教一下我們的陳主委那上一次在備詢的時候本席有聽到你說針對現在行政院是不是有提出NCC的這個委員新名單你現在是不知道但是呢你隨即也表示說七月底之前如果沒有辦法去補足這個人事的話恐怕未來是完全無法運作"},{"start":3255.228,"end":3272.263,"text":"那但是我們依據通訊傳播委員會的組織法規定我們知道在屆期前三個月必須要提出新的委員的人選名單但是呢這個時間點呢就是四月底那也就是剩下八天的時間了那目前針對現在新的提名作業進展到哪裡了 主委知道嗎"},{"start":3273.327,"end":3299.369,"text":"各位報告這部分我這邊是毫無所惜到現在還是毫無所惜但是雖然我們知道NCC的提名權是在行政院的手中可是您現在是代理主委我想也不應該置身事外尤其是當這個7月底一到NCC其實就如同空城一般那也是您自己所預期的可能業務就會停擺了所以主委都沒有去主動跟行政院討論過相關人士嗎"},{"start":3301.681,"end":3313.799,"text":"有跟行政院相關的長官有在討論有在反映這件事情相關的長官是誰比方說院長辦公室啊或者政委"},{"start":3314.588,"end":3341.224,"text":"院長我想我看過您的資歷在NCC裡面其實您待的時間蠻久的有做過科長 檢任記證 三個處的處長 竹密等等所以其實你對NCC的作業是非常了解的其實本席認為你應該就你的經驗跟專業其實要跟行政院這邊加強溝通甚至於你可以推薦一些人選所以我不曉得到現在為止剩下八天新的人選都沒有出來是因為"},{"start":3342.345,"end":3349.294,"text":"現在我們在這個專業領域的人才找不到還是說其實專業與否不重要是不是自己人才重要所以是哪一種"},{"start":3351.565,"end":3371.891,"text":"因為過往有提名過兩次有一些處理的經驗昨天在院會院長有做一些說明我相信院長應該會有一些考量再處理你的相信不重要但是你用專業去建議是比較重要那所以呢人選制沒有出來剩下八天我想請教一下是不是您有被甄選要連任"},{"start":3373.781,"end":3399.5,"text":"目前沒有那如果徵詢您的話,您會連任嗎?你表達意願,我們才知道將來要怎麼去處理啊我相信適合擔任委員的人,台灣人才聚集,應該所在多有我相信如果可以的話,我將把這個用餘空間留給院長所以不想做了,不想繼續連任?不是,這是尊重院長的選擇"},{"start":3400.501,"end":3428.838,"text":"好我想我們還是要加快腳步了好不好好謝謝那我們陳主委可以先請回謝謝您然後接下來我想請教一下我們的林部長部長我看到書發部在4月15號的時候有發布了一個徵求民間自行規劃申請參與AI算力中心的一個BOO案對不對一個公告那希望用促參的方式把企業來投入建置AI算力中心那當然就是說這個參與的機構應該要有一定比例的算力"},{"start":3429.198,"end":3443.807,"text":"然後提供政府學術單位無償或者是優惠的來使用這可以協助我們中央企業在這個合理的成本或優惠的成本之下取得算力的資源我覺得本席覺得這個構想其實真的非常的好也支持"},{"start":3445.207,"end":3471.969,"text":"這個4月15號我們這個案子出來以後申請的時間是到5月14號一個月的時間那請問一下部長我們原本預計你預期有多少家企業來申請因為本席之前有聽有看到媒體也講說好像我們鴻海也會來所以當時我們就覺得真的很棒啊那所以你預期有多少家那現在有多少家來申請了目前實際第一案的應該就是鴻海一家鴻海有來申請了嗎"},{"start":3475.339,"end":3493.229,"text":"要講清楚耶 鴻海有來申請了嗎現在還沒有還沒有 那部長你怎麼可以說還沒有你在這裡回答我本席說鴻海有來申請跟我們報告他已經有在我們公告之前他有提出規劃構想書不是嘛 提出規劃構想是一件事嘛我本席問得很清楚 鴻海來申請了嗎部長 鴻海到底來申請了沒有啦"},{"start":3499.502,"end":3514.207,"text":"沒有現在還在政策公告的期間啊還沒有截止啊是嗎那所以洪海來申請了嗎此時此刻本席在這裡詢問嗎政策公告還沒就沒有嘛對不對公示的是沒有但是他之前已經跟我們密切聯繫而且他還提出了那個"},{"start":3514.787,"end":3523.25,"text":"密切聯繫所以你認為他百分之百一定會來提出申請這個我不能保證所以不能保證就應該就現狀此時此刻本席在委員會問你你當然就應該要現在我沒有要你保證我剛才的問題你要聽清楚本席是在此時此刻問你有多少家來申請你跟我說鴻海結果鴻海現在此時此刻是沒有提出來的誰要你保證你有什麼本事來做保證"},{"start":3539.656,"end":3560.341,"text":"是完全同意這就是我要講的我沒有這個保證所以你要據實回答呀在委員會可以隨便用答詢的喔是抱歉不可以這種答詢的態度啊是不是沒有要你保證沒有人能夠保證鴻海會不會來但是你要據實答詢嘛你要據實答詢這件事很重要你能明白嗎所以你以後會據實答詢嗎現在有多少家來申請了部長"},{"start":3568.107,"end":3593.532,"text":"現在有多少家來申請了 部長您是部長是吧部長現在有多少家來申請現在還在公告期間我們剛才四個已經說明了到目前為止我問的問題很清楚到目前為止有多少家來申請那如果說照這種定義委員您這樣的定義的話是沒有現在一家都有零嘛 這有什麼好定義不定義很清楚就我問你答因為現在還在公告期間嘛到目前為止中文到目前為止不夠清楚嗎到目前為止有多少家"},{"start":3600.441,"end":3624.902,"text":"因為在公告期間所以沒有好 到目前為止沒有嘛 對不對那很簡單的問題嘛所以就是我們要加強嘛剛剛本席也說了這個構想我覺得很好可是如果到目前為止都還沒有人申請那我覺得我們是不是要加強一下嘛我當然知道公告期間啊難道按照你這樣講的意思是說5月14號自然就會很多嗎不要這樣講嘛今天在這裡備詢就是答今天的事情嘛是不是"},{"start":3625.382,"end":3650.996,"text":"是完全同意完全同意以後要照這樣做好不好部長改善一下那另外據本席所知道國科會的國網中心在去年我們有成立一個台灣算力聯盟那部長知道這個聯盟嗎知道那這個聯盟其實也很棒就是說我們要擴大算力的應用推廣來結合產業或者是學術然後公共單位的需求但我看了一下我個人覺得"},{"start":3651.937,"end":3670.811,"text":"跟速發部這一次BOO的這個案子的這個目標或是方向其實蠻雷同的那我不曉得說未來如果說目前我們是零但是在5月14號之後如果有企業我們來申請了以後那我們成行以後是不是會把這個資源呢併入到這個聯盟裡面去有這樣的想法嗎"},{"start":3671.371,"end":3690.183,"text":"基本上這是兩個不同的目的我們速發部主要是要提供產業界足夠的算力那國科會的國網中心主要是要提供政府單位以及研究單位包含那個大學等那有足夠的算力所以我們速發部這個案子我們的"},{"start":3691.003,"end":3713.479,"text":"這個算力是會收費的基本上因為這是商業營運然後國網中心它提供的這些算力有的是會有優惠的價格那有的是會是以免費的方式提供給政府單位所以還有費用不同的問題是好那但是我在想喔因為我們現在喔不曉得就是部長知不知道我們整個公部門現在的算力中心有建置的有多少你有去了解過嗎"},{"start":3714.219,"end":3729.254,"text":"因為這是國 如同我們剛剛講的這是國科會國網中心那邊的職責所以我們大概知道但是因為數據我的記性沒有這麼好我沒辦法在那邊講出那個很明確的數字那如果說委員這邊有需要的話很好本席非常喜歡你這種務實的答詢是"},{"start":3730.896,"end":3756.794,"text":"那我覺得這樣講啦就是說我們政府現在有在提倡嘛要建設AI之島所以我們知道AI很重要 算力很重要那既然我們國科會現在其實也有很多的計畫在走那訴發部也在做可是看起來訴發部也不算是在國科會這個聯盟之下而是我們單獨有一個我們自己的作用嘛但是呢 未來到底我們整個政府它一個公部門是一個整體的我們怎麼去整合那我想聽你這樣講是以國科會為主不是訴發部為主嗎"},{"start":3758.075,"end":3786.023,"text":"我們是不同就是說產業的算力需求由我們抒發部這邊來主責來解決然後政府機關跟學術單位的算力需求由國科會來負責解決這個是我們的分工好可以我同意我想分工很重要那當然整合很重要這未來當然我們跟國科會這邊再來討論就是分工之後那我們怎麼去統合這樣的一個資源所以這個部分就希望這個案子不錯那希望這個部長繼續加油好嗎謝謝委員的支持與鼓勵謝謝"},{"start":3788.066,"end":3807.568,"text":"好 謝謝萬美玲委員的發言 謝謝部長接下來我們請李昆哲委員發言謝謝主席 請一下NCC陳代理主委還有蘇華部林部長好 我們請陳代理主委跟林部長"},{"start":3810.563,"end":3832.445,"text":"我先請教一下NCC的主委根據美聯社的報導芬蘭他們很早就將這個國家教育的課程納入媒體的識別的一個基本的能力甚至從3歲開始就已經在設計相關的教學內容這是我們看看我們台灣2025年的"},{"start":3835.173,"end":3860.854,"text":"台灣網路報告有近六成的民眾啊自認他能夠辨識相關的假訊息但是真正去動手查證的大概只有13.6%那這也顯示我們在相關的假訊息的識別以及相關的教育的這樣的一個能力啊其實是相關的有很大的一個落差那"},{"start":3862.199,"end":3890.765,"text":"我們對於相關的這一些假訊息尤其是AI假訊息它其實是正在破壞民主社會的這樣的一個媒體的嗜讀的一個能力那數位平台的源頭管理是非常重要我認為我們必須要來參考歐盟的一個法規那有兩個我認為非常重要"},{"start":3891.405,"end":3919.879,"text":"第一個就是AI生成的標注的要求第二是平台的責任第一個我們對於標注的要求就是這種生成式的AI它的不管是圖像音訊或者是影片的這些內容它AI系統的提供者它必須要確保它這些內容是可以用機器的這樣的一個可讀的格式"},{"start":3922.084,"end":3941.545,"text":"來清楚標示它是AI生成的第二個是平台的責任那平台的責任生成的內容生成的責任當然是比較屬於提供者但是呢在大型的線上平台像Facebook啦像IG啦他們啊"},{"start":3942.677,"end":3965.767,"text":"他們的責任也是非常重要 我看歐盟的法規不管是世衛服務法或者是相關的AI法案他們都是採取聯訪的這樣的一個角色他們認為說這些平台必須要具有偵測的技術而且要確保這些標記它不會在相關的"},{"start":3966.887,"end":3986.741,"text":"內容傳播的過程當中被刪除那我們會不會參照這樣的一個歐盟的法規來請主委說明一下是跟委員報告分兩個部分在傳統廣電部分我們自己能夠在做業者端跟民眾端培力的部分導入AI的議題的一些教育訓練在"},{"start":3989.463,"end":4013.97,"text":"網際網路這一塊我們大概113年度起因為相關的平台還有AI的興起CHAT GP之後大概也相對比較成為熱潮之後也是從兩個部分從業者端平台端跟民眾端來分頭進行那這幾年大概都有辦相關的一些賠利像去年不管是在"},{"start":4015.45,"end":4039.866,"text":"民眾端我們辦了好幾場然後業者端也辦了好幾場大概都是會持續來處理業者端另外一個關鍵的核心要求就是要請業者我們在相關的預算或是相關的政策已經有在做初步的這樣的一個防止AI生成式的這樣的一個AI的假訊息的這樣的一個處理但是還是不夠啦"},{"start":4040.726,"end":4051.861,"text":"那我們必須要提到學者所謂的AI假信、自信的這樣一個嚴重的狀況就是說我們的社會有七成的人"},{"start":4053.257,"end":4076.436,"text":"表示自己啊能夠判斷而且很有自信的會認為這是AI的相關的深層的影像圖片音訊等等但是呢實際上他的準確率卻只有六成而已卻只有六成而已這就表示啊NCC過去在相關的媒體的這樣的一個試讀教育啊"},{"start":4077.256,"end":4093.628,"text":"是完全跟不上技術的演進這是一個很嚴重的問題那我們NCC每年都有編列這樣一個媒體試圖的這樣的一個推廣的預算那內容就是應該要與時俱進我看我們"},{"start":4095.786,"end":4109.973,"text":"現在這個媒體試讀的這樣一個推廣的預算到底有多少是用在教導民眾能夠識別這種深層次AI的特徵來說明一下我們請主任來補充說明阿華委員"},{"start":4113.669,"end":4126.221,"text":"那針對成人的部分我們的預算金額規模大概就是500萬那另外針對IWIN兒少的部分那有一部分教育訓練也是針對我們對於這一種"},{"start":4129.404,"end":4152.506,"text":"媒體的這樣的一個要求對於這種深層式AI我們必須要清楚的要求標示的要求而且平台的責任要落實對於相關深層式AI的這樣的一個民眾的AI假信的自信的這樣的危機必須要重視我請教一下書畫部"},{"start":4154.407,"end":4171.85,"text":"我們蘇華部從2022年開始有開放電信事業申請相關的衛星通信用的無線電頻率那期間也擴大開放相關的衛星頻率的用途等等那我看到有很多的新系"},{"start":4173.752,"end":4191.823,"text":"就是都已經在台灣落地而且都已經開始提供服務了那數位部也在2024年啊年底也採用SES的中軌衛星跟OneWeb的低軌衛星在台灣跟離島部間的770點的非同步衛星的應變網路那2025年我們也持續維運196個關鍵的這個站點那我們"},{"start":4202.29,"end":4229.489,"text":"要了解說我們對於相關的進程啊亞馬遜計畫最快也要在今年的下半年就要覆蓋台灣相關的網路啦那中華電信也在爭取相關的獨家代理那技術多元化也是未來一個方向那應變的機制也非常的重要啦那尤其是海嵐斷線或是通訊受損的時候啊"},{"start":4230.149,"end":4248.802,"text":"那優先都會將這些衛星的頻寬調度給國防、醫療、金融等關鍵單位那在防災救災三難的時候它也是很重要的一個使用那低軌衛星是我們暫時通訊的一個最後的保險"},{"start":4250.003,"end":4272.46,"text":"那目前的這些敵軌衛星的星系他們都是屬於外資的外資的星系那今年年底我們政府到底有沒有能力跟這些外資的星系來簽署相關具有法律的約束力的這種國家緊急通訊的優先權來 請說明一下"},{"start":4274.742,"end":4291.857,"text":"是 現在如同委員所說的現在主要的這些新系都是國外的廠商那國外廠商他要進到台灣的時候我們依照目前電信法第36條的規定必須由台灣的業者來營運就是說他們外商他不能 占股不能超過50%然後"},{"start":4295.28,"end":4313.451,"text":"這個事情我們會持續的跟這些星系去溝通那包含就是說大家很關心的STARLINK事實上我們也主動去跟STARLINK去做接觸那STARLINK他們的那個態度其實很有趣他們就跟我們講說目前因為台灣的4G跟5G的那個涵蓋率太高了超過99%所以他們評估認為說台灣這個市場剩下的他們的那個商業空間比較小所以他們"},{"start":4319.855,"end":4347.411,"text":"那個就是對他們來講這不是個高優先順序的市場但是我們認為說這個可能是真實的狀況也可能是他們談判的一個技巧那我們速發部不管怎麼樣會努力跟他們那個去談那這種談判的過程我想我們都知道就是說這中間有很多的攻防有很多的那個談判的那個技巧那我們這個都會去做我們是覺得這種具有法律約束力的緊急通信的優先協議是非常重要的是"},{"start":4347.751,"end":4371.992,"text":"我們當然又是說如果發生極端的狀況那這些外商會不會因為地緣政治的壓力單方面的斷訊這是非常嚴重的一個問題那數位部也預計在研發的這些國產的衛星的接收設備目前的自治率到底是有多少來說明一下"},{"start":4372.552,"end":4391.19,"text":"因為通常這種衛星星系它的衛星跟它的接收器都是搭配的它這個不是公開的就是公開的規格所以譬如說那個Amazon Leo它的衛星就必須搭配它的接收器然後Starlink就必須搭配Starlink的接收器"},{"start":4391.75,"end":4419.073,"text":"那這些接收器目前很大一部分它供應鏈都是在台灣可是它實際的那個銷售都還是在這些信息手中那委員提到的就是說如果萬一台灣發生緊急狀況它會不會毀約那如果說到時候有毀約的話這絕對要負法律責任那現在如果說是由台灣公司來代理的話那這個法律責任會是在於台灣這個代理公司跟這些那個國外的公司之間的那個B2B的一個糾紛"},{"start":4420.094,"end":4447.307,"text":"但是如果是民間的話直接他直接來賣的話變成是台灣的使用者直接跟他總公司那這個對我們來講的確會比較麻煩部長我具體的建議我們在中華電信或者是數位部在要求這些相關代理的時候就應該要將本地的地面站點管理權以及緊急頻寬的保障必須要納入合約"},{"start":4448.447,"end":4462.368,"text":"第二就是說我們要加速衛星的相關資安的這些標準的一個檢測那應該要建立跟國際接軌例如歐盟他相關的漏洞的這些檢測的技術規範必須要接軌"},{"start":4464.19,"end":4485.862,"text":"另外就是要擴大衛星的這些多元軌道的運用就加強中軌跟低軌的混合應用就是來分散單一星系失效的這個風險最後讓你來補充說明是非常同意那個委員的建議這個是非常好的建議我們要盡量都用多元因為這些"},{"start":4487.583,"end":4489.244,"text":"請諸位跟部長嚴加督促相關的工作內容"},{"start":4517.923,"end":4547.032,"text":"謝謝委員提醒跟支持謝謝好謝謝李貫哲委員的發言那我們接下來請魯明哲委員發言好謝謝主持呃有請我們這個NCC陳代理主委還有數位部呃今天部長來哈好我們請陳主委也請林部長"},{"start":4552.484,"end":4570.845,"text":"其實接續因為上次本來要問我們林部長但是因為時間不夠今天正好兩位都在一起因為那天我們林部長特別說上個月月底這個月初集體台灣非常多的LINE的用戶"},{"start":4572.266,"end":4596.463,"text":"帳戶消失了然後我記得當天的林部長特別說是兩個小問題就是LINE發生了有一個小問題然後台灣大哥大不管是語音信箱的小問題兩個小問題加起來變一個大漏洞那這樣的一個情況當然那故事我就不講了那怎麼樣進入在觸發了這個電信業者的這個"},{"start":4599.426,"end":4605.124,"text":"他原本的預設的一個密碼我想請問一下先問一下我們陳代理主委"},{"start":4606.887,"end":4635.162,"text":"這個因為當天我覺得看到世衛部的新聞稿有請教你們你們對於不光是這件事情啊發生的整個三大電信業者都有做一個盤點嗎有當天我們立刻都通知三大電信業者做一些風險的一些指示都是很多立刻都把語音新加的那些功能都關掉那後來也陸陸續續都把這個預設密碼還有這個全部都關掉變成說一定要回去改掉原來密碼才可以啟動"},{"start":4636.503,"end":4651.275,"text":"這是當天的第一個動作那第二個動作我們也請電信偵查大隊請他去LINE那邊了解背後有沒有什麼炸團的一些順便去蒐集一些情節來做後續的一些follow up"},{"start":4651.795,"end":4673.54,"text":"不過這個要跟主委特別提醒一下針對於這些業者我坦白講因為現在不管是不管要詐騙的這種電腦的駭客的概念他們都要推陳出新所以今天當然發生一件事你再盤點一件事我真的是覺得你們兩個相關主管單位我覺得也要要求這些業者"},{"start":4675.26,"end":4691.36,"text":"你要這種能夠往前的一個管理尤其對於資訊安全自己的安全那個部分我覺得這個很重要那再來就是部長部長其實這個事情發生到現在我一直碰到很多當天的這個受害者你知道嗎但我覺得"},{"start":4692.661,"end":4706.406,"text":"這很奇怪你覺得你寫了一輩子的日記裡面有你十年的日記這個是千金難換的然後放在一個很保險的地方結果他的密碼被偷了然後說解決好了都沒問題了"},{"start":4707.586,"end":4725.017,"text":"然後還一本空白的日記說我解決了 OK你存了十幾年的相片用相片寫日記但現在是LINE的基本功能真的很多人生活就是這樣的連這個人電話都沒有他的好友五千位裡面有三千位完全沒有電話的"},{"start":4726.418,"end":4752.796,"text":"趴著他丟新的電話簿空拍丟給你我處理囉 我LINE處理了我覺得這個有點離譜因為我碰到一堆三四個朝我重新加LINE了他這個苦啊 他說這莫名其妙啊也沒人說人道歉啊 不知道幹什麼啊就一個個加五千萬的朋友他現在加到一千多位了可是我覺得造成的困難非常嚴重就這樣就結束了是不是 你覺得"},{"start":4753.736,"end":4770.735,"text":"我覺得那個LINE在這部分的話處理不是很好應該那我們也是跟他們溝通過因為這個是基本上他們是一個商業的服務他這個事情他應該是考慮到那個客戶的這些想法那因為那個LINE他當然他的說法是說他擔心是"},{"start":4771.235,"end":4786.91,"text":"那個中間在盜用的過程中那個盜用的人他把裡面加入了什麼訊息什麼什麼他這種講法那因為我們其實我們跟我們速發部跟LINE溝通我們有時候也是覺得說非常的辛苦因為日本人總是那個第一個做事比較謹慎一點我們這樣講比較比較不會那個就是說"},{"start":4790.453,"end":4809.345,"text":"那個日本人就做事很謹慎很謹慎那相對的就是很慢很慢然後什麼事情就是想這個想那個那我們會作為書發部我們是個主管計畫我們會督促他們想辦法就是幫那個客戶所以我覺得這都需要跟他溝通啦我的朋友名字你也不還我對不對有些其實"},{"start":4810.606,"end":4832.643,"text":"在整個害的過程中他是他的權利我的密碼被他偷了是別人去登登陸我的那個基地是我的資訊裡面是可是你在解決完這個之後我的資訊很多根本還在是但是只是因為你覺得很忙啊算了啊有可能有危險可是對人家來講是半輩子的記憶朋友我倒是覺得在這要溝通一下好如果說"},{"start":4833.964,"end":4845.217,"text":"我是這個被盜的我願意負責啊你照片還我照片給我怎麼樣好啦就算你你檔案還給我不是從LINE的這個角度也要有一個機制嘛怎麼可以這樣的我是覺得希望能夠藉這個機會溝通一下"},{"start":4848.2,"end":4872.356,"text":"是 好不好那也請委員多幫忙因為有時候那個LINE會是說是因為日本他的那個政府的一些相關法規等等那如果我們能透過那種像說那個國會外交的方式去跟日本政府溝通一下讓LINE可以有這個一些比較法律上的鬆綁讓他可以處理得快一點不要說這每件事情叫不錯不錯部長你把球都給我們了謝謝我們未來有努力最後一個問題問一下我們陳主委是陳主委我要請教一個問題"},{"start":4878.92,"end":4890.824,"text":"那天很多的媒體包括電視也都報導他說台灣大哥大當天的客戶是主要受災戶的一個群體其中發現原來的台灣這些用戶最慘"},{"start":4893.925,"end":4909.982,"text":"那我就覺得你們當然處理了嘛預設密碼直接接客服嘛我知道嘛可是你都沒有想見是是誰為什麼我有這麼多的客戶他是只有在我台灣大哥大裡面的從前一年"},{"start":4911.223,"end":4930.973,"text":"過來的台灣之星客戶就表示如果有一個駭客他已經知道哪些是台灣之星這有指標性的有標籤性的他根本知道裡面的資料你覺得這有沒有特定資料外洩的這樣的疑慮啊你聽到你看到這個新聞還是經過你查不是這樣這個很奇怪喔"},{"start":4932.114,"end":4950.287,"text":"台灣大哥大這麼多的客戶群體舉個例子喔你所有的大哥大裡面只有女性的是要被騷擾他怎麼去辨別一個門號是男性還是女性他怎麼辨別是源台灣之星所以我覺得最有可能是源台灣之星的團體"},{"start":4952.408,"end":4969.125,"text":"發生了問題把這個資料露出去了要不然就是台灣大哥大在接駁的這個半年不到半年之間發生問題這部分你有沒有想到有沒有去了解一下為什麼一個特定的群體到底我跟你都沒辦法判別"},{"start":4970.006,"end":4990.374,"text":"台灣大哥大給我一個電話請問一下他是台灣之星的台灣之星客戶還是原本是台灣大哥大我們怎麼會知道嘛這個部分你要不要去查一下了解一下所以剛剛跟委員報告說我們請電信隊去做後續的一些找一些蛛絲馬跡看看有沒有後續的相關一些進一步的一些調查"},{"start":4990.754,"end":4994.935,"text":"我覺得這個事情還是要盡量搞清楚是原來資料在台灣之星階段就已經外洩了還是在這個再來這個事情要整個做我們所有幾大電信都體檢一下好不好就這樣了沒問題謝謝"},{"start":5016.462,"end":5044.959,"text":"好謝謝魯明哲委員接下來我們請林俊憲召委發言好謝謝主席本席邀請我們NCC代主委好我們請NCC代主委邀請我們數法部林部長好請林部長召委長朱委長朱委長跟部長請教"},{"start":5046.308,"end":5060.021,"text":"我們非常重要的強化國家的通訊韌性是這是哪個單位管的這個是我們速發部的韌性司所主管那法規相關法規是誰在管"},{"start":5061.414,"end":5090.321,"text":"像電信管理法有些法規是書發部管有些是NCC在管以那個電信法來講的話電信法就是我們NCC主管的一個法律所以這種通訊的韌性強化建立這必須要你們兩個單位要來合作我們現在的通訊網絡大概就是陸海空以一般國家來看的話陸地就是我們例如基地台"},{"start":5092.202,"end":5114.796,"text":"例如海底電纜那現在呢經過這幾年全世界都看到了這種透過空中的通訊載體例如像這種低軌衛星是非常重要的尤其在非常時期從俄烏戰爭從伊朗之前之前伊朗因為有一些民眾抗爭"},{"start":5118.43,"end":5133.341,"text":"伊朗政府就封閉了所有的通訊當時也是透過低軌衛星來提供免費的連線來突破伊朗軍事的政府的那種用軍規的網路封鎖"},{"start":5137.279,"end":5162.574,"text":"那這其中我們也看到剛剛有幾位委員關心過我們海底電纜其實在不用說非常時期啦在平時啊應該就經常發生過被割斷甚至有蓄意的人為的來破壞這種大概佔了八成以上的因素那陸地的你像基地台的通訊"},{"start":5163.976,"end":5184.131,"text":"其實在這次的颱風 台南是發生的我們就感受到它的脆弱性所以我們也強化陸地的基地台我們現在有一種所謂的抗災型的強化它抵抗天然災害這種基地台另外也有"},{"start":5185.367,"end":5200.45,"text":"海底電纜以外另外最常講的就是那如果空中的低軌衛星的建立現在很多國家也都往這個方向去不曉得兩位對這點有沒有什麼看法來這個主管到後面說"},{"start":5201.531,"end":5227.46,"text":"是 根據我們報告 確實這個韌性是疊加的基本部分是NCC 認定為CI部分是數位部那海地星空的統一結合都是在通信基本原理上都是它的多路由多倍元的概念那當然是以曝顯的程度比較不容易遭受打擊的應該是非同步衛星目前台灣也是朝這方向來逐步擴建"},{"start":5228.413,"end":5252.126,"text":"那我們有朝這個方向去嘛那其實我們現在的法律規定是非常嚴格的啦我們電訊管理法 再引進去主管的法律嘛我們規定如果你要到台灣來如果我們要引進低軌衛星的話現在幾乎這個技術都在國外嘛在歐洲 尤其在美國嘛最出名的就是星鏈 馬斯克的星鏈"},{"start":5253.186,"end":5272.611,"text":"但是他到台灣來的話第一個像這種使用電信資源來提供公眾電信網路的這個老闆要有中華民國國籍這是我們規定的第二個外國人如果到台灣來投資他持有的股數股份不得超過49%"},{"start":5275.185,"end":5298.035,"text":"也就是說那幾乎等於限制外國公司不可以到台灣來因為他持有股份不可以過半直接間接的總股份數不得超過60%那以這樣的條文來限制恐怕就國際目前既有的啦既有的能夠提供信念服務服務的低軌衛星服務的公司恐怕就攔你進到台灣來"},{"start":5299.897,"end":5317.538,"text":"跟委員說明一下 其實目前這個條款是講的是說他不能直接來經營 但是他可以透過代理商所以像現在那個中華電信就是我們比較透過跟他合作那這樣的合作 國外公司接受嗎"},{"start":5318.952,"end":5343.853,"text":"目前就只有STAR LINK接受然後Amazon還有那個Eurostar還有那個OneWeb他們都接受那實際上以目前的世界的主力啦坦白講還是那個STAR LINK因為他最早從這裡嘛是所以我是覺得那我們電信管理法有沒有可能來放寬他的彈性"},{"start":5346.55,"end":5366.207,"text":"如果說能放寬彈性的話那當然是對蘇發布在跟STARLINK進行溝通協調談判的時候因為這個是新的東西新的科技所以很多國家藉由的法律通通沒有辦法來應付這種狀況我現在看到很多世界上很多主要國家都開始有"},{"start":5367.827,"end":5383.936,"text":"有對於法令上增加彈性的一個做法是你像日本、韓國、荷蘭甚至菲律賓、越南他們都採取比較開放的做法也就是透過專案審查的方式"},{"start":5385.617,"end":5401.108,"text":"來在風險當然有一些前提啦在風險可控在國家安全以及未來電信產業的發展不影響的之下來做來引進國際企業和技術在法令上有這樣的一個彈性的做法不知道NCC的看法怎樣"},{"start":5401.368,"end":5417.833,"text":"是跟趙偉報告這一塊其實其他國家最近有些鬆綁其實他是有綁定一些剛剛趙偉所講他有些前提比方說跟他一些貿易簽FTA等等有一些綁定一些條件那歐洲特別是西歐很多國家他外資全部放掉其實他對國家對數據主權的"},{"start":5420.754,"end":5437.545,"text":"把關他價值還存在因為各位別忘了歐洲最厲害的武器就是GDPR這個跨境的個資傳輸資料傳輸他都有嚴格限制所以即便是我們講荷蘭好了他即便外資全部放掉我不管你可是他還是要求"},{"start":5438.866,"end":5461.782,"text":"目前最受歡迎的那家立委公司在他們還是要設Gateway那這種情況在亞洲國家剛剛我們報告所提到一些日本他有設Gateway那菲律賓也有那其他的越南也好他是綁定一些貿易上的條件所以其實現行的條文其實就如剛剛部長所講的要操作一定可以操作"},{"start":5462.242,"end":5487.572,"text":"那現行的條文大家看這個目前畫面這邊前面不管是第四項第五項的前面逗點的前面那個前提除法律另有規定外法律另有規定包括條約那我們目前跟假設某些國家有簽FDA或者說跟跟美方的目前那ART假設條款裡頭有些符合的話其實也可以豁免所以既有的法律就有一定的彈性嗎你意思是這樣嗎"},{"start":5488.752,"end":5508.681,"text":"是的沒錯就是以前面的規定除了法律另有規定之外那另外有跟召委報告就是說對本國業者的一些衝擊因為大概STARLINK的第二代以前大概相對衝擊不大但是第二代之後他因為衛星間我用時間的關係第一個"},{"start":5511.465,"end":5532.022,"text":"我們是要考量在這種新科技新技術的這個時代我們現有的法令會不會影響到未來我們建置國家的通訊韌性安全如果有必要我們當然要思考如何來解決法令鬆綁的問題看有沒有必要性"},{"start":5534.804,"end":5555.78,"text":"第二個你看一般在一個國家他其實在這方面他越來越有貪心做法我給你看日本在日本這個照片在我左邊這個照片這是日本Big Camera裡面他公開就任何消費者都可以去買Starlink的設備"},{"start":5557.366,"end":5586.366,"text":"你回家就可以自己裝了那右邊是日本Costco的照片你看它整個整堆好像雙的民眾隨時可以買回家自己裝所以在這方面因為你不可能所謂的基地台尤其是陸地通訊建制我們光是講偏鄉的這個網路落差通訊落差就不知道講了多少年政府不知道補助這些電信公司多少錢"},{"start":5587.898,"end":5605.463,"text":"就沒有辦法消除所以那個通訊死角那種城鄉的數位落差就這樣了那像這樣有這種新的技術你就不會有通訊死角這種大部分都是沒有辦法得到正常網路通訊的地方他都可以買回去自己裝"},{"start":5606.584,"end":5630.96,"text":"但是你看台灣在這方面已經相對落後了他們已經是變成一種民眾你可以自己考量你有必要就等於民生用品一般啦大型的量販店通路你都可以買的到啦在台灣我們還在討論法規的問題所以這個其實我們已經相對的在這方面我認為政府應該要加快腳步好不好好 謝謝我們NCC 謝謝我們說法部"},{"start":5633.906,"end":5662.447,"text":"好 謝謝主席好 謝謝委員 謝謝召委好 謝謝我們林議員召委感謝兩位那接下來我們請洪孟凱委員發言好 主席謝謝麻煩請我們NCC代理主委跟我們訴發部林部長好 也要請代理主委跟林部長"},{"start":5666.874,"end":5695.29,"text":"好 代理主委我先請教因為本期一個禮拜前也利用總質詢時間請教卓榮泰院長說我們NCC委員還有三位目前可能7月31號就到期那依法令規定是三個月前要提出相關的名單送立法院來做審議嘛那卓榮泰院長他當時跟我講法是說他要盡力找人但沒有十足把握但實際上來講只剩一個多禮拜就4月30號了"},{"start":5696.371,"end":5708.804,"text":"那我還是一樣老問題啊我不知道說您現在代理主委當然現在委員人數不足你們也有一些業務沒有辦法推動那更重要的是卓榮泰院長在這段時間有沒有請教過您的建議報告委員目前沒有"},{"start":5710.189,"end":5733.814,"text":"目前沒有也沒有所以卓榮泰院長他的心態現在是怎麼樣我沒有辦法想像就是說立法院行政院大家國事如麻但是該做的事情應該要做獨立機關已經過去人選出來我們也講了只要好的人選立法院不會刻意的阻撓但是我們希望你真的是能夠提出優質的人選"},{"start":5735.049,"end":5749.994,"text":"那半年過去了上一次NCC四位委員是在去年11月投完票那現在半年過去了到目前為止人選還沒有出來那如果說在一個禮拜之後還是沒有人選出來那這到底帳要算誰的"},{"start":5750.834,"end":5778.366,"text":"你人選沒有出來立法院就沒有辦法審查我相信召委不管是藍營召委綠營召委大家都一定會馬上來做排案就如同我們預算附委之後馬上來做預算的一個解凍或是審查這個本來就是立法院的權責那但是如果行政院連名單都不送出來立法院要怎麼辦代理主委這個問題大家都很關注是啊我關注你關注但就感覺只有卓榮燈院長他"},{"start":5780.66,"end":5797.268,"text":"沒有很重視的感覺啊不然的話他問一下請你去聊一下問一下說到底現在NCA業務怎麼樣然後如果說有沒有人選你有沒有具體的建議專業建議甚至代理主委問說你願不願意徵廚也沒有"},{"start":5800.942,"end":5825.67,"text":"我相信到月底還有一段時間應該行政院應該會 八天我們就等著看因為我不為難你因為這不是你的全責可是我只想是說再一次點出這個問題想要請教的是到底民進黨政府現在有沒有把國人心心念念放的優先順位先擺出來還是什麼事情都可以推中共打壓NCC提名人士應該不是中共打壓吧也不應該吧來吧"},{"start":5831.038,"end":5847.644,"text":"我們來討論一下因為今天我覺得這個新鏈的議題防衛韌性或是我們的這個通訊數位韌性非常重要本席也很關注那我們也看到了就是說速發部有相關的意見但速發部的意見我剛剛看了一下那個說明比較像是說還要再做研議"},{"start":5848.504,"end":5868.2,"text":"沒有絕對支持也沒有絕對反對因為現在主要卡到幾個點嘛第一是說我們國內的36條有規定是說不能超過外資不能超過50%那法定就框住了但一樣的道理看看日本跟韓國我覺得日本韓國是可以做比較的為什麼因為第一離我們近第二產業相對"},{"start":5870.672,"end":5896.262,"text":"相近還有說實在話他們是我們也是算競爭的夥伴嘛所以人家有往前超前了那我們也應該要迎頭趕上先說台灣的4G 5G的普及率高所以好像星鏈對我們這個市場沒有那麼的重視但我查了一下資料當然這資料可能各國政府他不同的數據判斷可是我查了以"},{"start":5897.932,"end":5916.144,"text":"人手一機的普及率來講手機上網普及率台灣佔87%到90%左右日本佔90%以上韓國更高但95%到98%所以換言之韓國日本其實以人手一機手機上網的普及率其實還比台灣高"},{"start":5917.505,"end":5935.01,"text":"這是一個數據那另外第二個部分是說我們想要請教到底低軌衛星對於日本也好韓國也好他們現在正在推行那有沒有增加他們防衛性那他們怎麼做能夠避免被詐騙集團濫用利用這有沒有去做了解"},{"start":5935.31,"end":5962.295,"text":"是有跟委員報告都是幾個重點第一個日本韓國他們可以做到處理其實就是因為他們有一些籌碼上跟對方在做一些折衷你只是說這個訓練對韓國是因為跟美方有簽FTA所以他的外資條款可以豁免可以排除適用那日本的話他是因為斯大林在日本有多位有在當地落地"},{"start":5962.975,"end":5977.131,"text":"那以目前的情況如果我們信用條款如果直接沒有修改的話其實STAR LINK願意配合的話都可以做因為既有的已經來落地的OneWeb也好其實都已經這麼做了那以"},{"start":5977.912,"end":5999.12,"text":"Starlink最近新的第二代的它的Starlink第二代它是可以做那Inter-Satellite Link就是衛星間直接丟那個中繼信號的話這一塊對未來的產業的發展衝擊是比較可怕為什麼因為最近Starlink取得52項的專利它可以在"},{"start":6000.501,"end":6016.135,"text":"改變這個Tracking Area Code的這種情況之下他可以以後目前手機支聯Starlink大概只能傳Text都傳文件然後簡訊而已未來他傳影音傳影像大概就相對沒問題是就等於是網速更快對"},{"start":6017.256,"end":6033.532,"text":"那某種程度的話他可以立刻取代掉所有地面的一些行動業者所以這個對產業的衝擊很大是產業衝擊是一個部分但一定要有本國業者的角色主委你剛剛沒有聽本席的問題本席問A你答A啦齁我先說因為我也看到說本"},{"start":6034.153,"end":6056.796,"text":"你講的我們也都理解就是說他等於是互相競爭嘛本國業者譬如說三家業者他們是要設基地台那如果說今天STARLINK來他不用設基地台那他也一樣的網速的話那可能很多人就會選擇因為他不用基地台他就變成是說他涵蓋面比較廣如果說一些譬如說山區海邊原本他基地台比較少的地方他的收訊比較弱"},{"start":6057.216,"end":6072.681,"text":"那可能那些民眾他就會被Starlink給吸引走但這都還不是本席的問題因為那個是市場公平競爭的機制但本席看到的是我不要說因為我們放寬了Starlink進來之後發聲說有業者現在宣稱可能"},{"start":6074.314,"end":6101.205,"text":"詐騙集團可能這些非法的集團他會利用Starlink這樣的衛星然後本國沒有辦法去追蹤所以我現在想問的是日本政府跟韓國政府怎麼樣解決這個問題對就是我剛才還沒來得及跟文回答就第二部分是日本怎麼處理呢因為他街會在日本落地所以他在這個通訊監察就是英文叫lover intersection的部分他可以實質從physical layer就已經掌握了"},{"start":6101.805,"end":6129.194,"text":"那韓國他也在洽談而且韓國是有本國業者參與所以在這國家安全通信監察治安防護防打炸等等他是一定的掌握度那如果如果說我們這邊如果在本國參與跟涉基位這兩個部分我們都沒有辦法掌握沒有辦法在台灣實現的話其實這個是相當危險的所以以主管機關立場當然束發務還沒有表達意見林部長我看你後面一直在微笑"},{"start":6130.194,"end":6151.149,"text":"代理主委你現在講法就這個也是本席我們認為未來在修法的時候一個很重要的一句真參考如果說你剛剛講這兩個先決條件都沒有辦法做到的話換言之開放STARLINK來台灣會容易就變成是說他內容是什麼通訊是什麼我們沒有辦法有任何地步的掌握有掌握但是就會像"},{"start":6152.23,"end":6169.729,"text":"譬如說我們過去的一個狀況譬如說社群媒體平台它沒有在台灣設落地那也因此它在社群媒體平台上面的一個詐騙廣告或我們第一時間沒有辦法那當然後續我們因為通過相關法令我們要求社群媒體平台它自律也好或說他們做相關的規範才有做"},{"start":6171.412,"end":6191.952,"text":"規範所以變成未來如果說這樣的話有可能是需要依賴企業自律而不是我們政府公權力站在地線是這樣嗎我已經講到重點了存外商沒有本國業的參與的話在打仗在治安上的防護的效率速度上大概會存在一個都是會比較疑慮這是第一個第二個就是剛剛提到的數據主權問題"},{"start":6195.276,"end":6207.276,"text":"在歐洲國家特別西歐很多外資筆記都完全放掉了可是他還是要求他的要那個STAR LINK要在當地設定為那我們在做相關修法的時候能不能堅持跟要求這一塊"},{"start":6207.782,"end":6229.628,"text":"其實最簡單 現行的條款都可以達到因為新條款是制度上 先天上就是國安到位 by design就已經放在那邊了當然如果說我們國家安全需要的話其實可以分階段to B to government to G可以先做只是目前對方目前比較沒有意願因為土系他自己講說他會覺得是說如果要開放就要全部開放嘛"},{"start":6230.448,"end":6252.082,"text":"所以說某種程度上這就是永遠都是角力但本席還是強調的是站在我們台灣2300萬人的第一主權還有安全以及韌性上面我們做一個綜合最有利的選擇好這個部分是未來修法的時候進入到主條我們會再討論但我最後一分鐘我要再請教一下那日本我們現在看到有兩個做法"},{"start":6253.283,"end":6272.626,"text":"大家媒體也看到第一 日本去年他們政府部門宣布說他們也要不要把權力或說技術全部掌握在STARLINK上所以他們投入了1500億我不知道日幣或是台幣這個幣值我沒有見但1500億要打造日本的新鏈這個新聞有看到吧"},{"start":6273.78,"end":6288.873,"text":"所以換言之有可能如果說他們現在投入打造日本的芯鏈的這個技術未來有可能變成是說不會是全球獨家只有芯鏈這一個公司那麼的成熟也許日本也有他們的獨家技術我們變成是說有多元管道也可以"},{"start":6290.155,"end":6314.532,"text":"採用另外第二個是日本他們現在宣布說2027年他們駐外使節管等於是外管先採取使用新鏈尤其是在比較容易發生天災或是比較容易有戰爭的國家他們的駐外管是用新鏈的系統來去做這個通訊避免日本國人在那個國家裡面失去"},{"start":6316.694,"end":6327.484,"text":"聯繫發生重要事業聯繫那我覺得這東西就可以思考一下這當然可能要跟外交部一起來討論可是如果說連日本他們都已經想到是說我們也許台灣"},{"start":6328.393,"end":6347.512,"text":"我們本土境內沒辦法但是至少我們的外管尤其像一些我們的友邦是不是能夠那裡的駐外單位他們也可以來使用新鏈這樣的一個通訊技術未來可以跟我們國內的這個暢通管道更無虞因為我們有些友邦的基礎建設真的沒那麼好"},{"start":6348.044,"end":6370.825,"text":"這可不可以研究一下其實我也能講到重點 剛剛日本舉的例子日本本身也要發展自己的衛星產業所以在台灣如果如果地基業者有角色的話這一部分台灣的衛星發展才不會說完全就是被Bypass所以那兩個 那另外第二個部分可能就跟外交部也比較相關那束發部長"},{"start":6371.926,"end":6386.918,"text":"能不能提一下那這樣子本期這樣的一個建議是不是能夠找外交部來討論看看有沒有需要來去做一個更強化至少我們國外的單位回來台灣的這個通訊以及我們在那邊的國人的通訊能夠有一些保障"},{"start":6387.563,"end":6404.992,"text":"是委員的這個提議非常好那我們會跟外交部那邊去做建議不過這個事情因為第一個是外交這個牽涉到那個機密的事情可能就是說數八部沒辦法直接去做必須由外交部去做另外一個是說因為如果在一個那個譬如說是"},{"start":6406.773,"end":6434.631,"text":"非洲的哪一個國家 那那個必須當 接受當地法律的規定這個就不是我們 那個NCC跟數碼規定好 但參考一下日本的因為日本現在已經做了 他們宣布2027年他們全球的駐外使節單位都會用衛星通訊來跟他們國內保持原本就已經有的通訊 他們維持但是他們多增加星鏈這樣的技術來確保真的發生天災或是戰亂的時候他們的國人還是可以跟日本政府來做"},{"start":6435.371,"end":6446.178,"text":"取得聯繫 好不好 我們參考一下是 好嗎 謝謝委員的提醒跟支持 謝謝好 我們謝謝侯孟愷委員的發言謝謝部長跟主委我們接下來請陳樹越委員發言"},{"start":6458.742,"end":6466.828,"text":"好 謝謝主席 請主席邀請NCC陳代理主委還有數目發布的林部長好 請陳主委跟林部長委員好"},{"start":6475.343,"end":6494.415,"text":"今天委員會就是針對電信管理法第36條的徵求條文進行討論我們看到有關電信管理法針對公眾電信網路外資的限制在原本的條文裡面對外國人直接持股的股份總數我們歸電是不得超過49%"},{"start":6497.777,"end":6524.992,"text":"直接及間接持有的股份總數不得超過百分之六十那同時就是說以股份有限公司為限的話董事長應具有中華民國的國籍那我們今天有看到我們就是召委的版本跟葛如君委員的版本那召委的版本裡面當然就是最後面當然就是說經主管機關核准則就是不受第四項後段及第五項之限制這是他們就是這兩個版本的最終的一個"},{"start":6525.953,"end":6545.753,"text":"訴求 照我的版本我們看到它是有比較更細緻的規範 當然就是說針對網路安全或者是國家安全及其他公共利益的無補利益影響有這樣子的一個條件的限制不過這兩個版本都是應該最主要的目的就是要放寬"},{"start":6547.374,"end":6566.813,"text":"外國人直接持股的比例就是外資的這個限制那我現在在我想要請教一下就是以目前我們現在的電信管理法第36條對外資的這個限制的現行條文裡面我們是否讓所有國外的這些低軌衛星的業者確保"},{"start":6568.159,"end":6595.837,"text":"沒有其實oneweb還有其他SES等中國也好大概都遵行現行的戰略條規定來進來也跟委員報告其實現行的規定其實當初我們加入WTO的時候的跟多方在談的情況之下那是基本當時的一些基本要求其實過往早期電信法的事情海蘭也要求必須要follow這個外資條款外資限制條款其實都不是問題只有他們願意配合的話都不是問題"},{"start":6596.747,"end":6619.17,"text":"是 就是他們要配合的話這些都不是問題嘛那尤其我們目前也已經有這個跟OneWeb就是已經有合作的關係嘛我記得之前在我們在審預算的時候我記得之前唐鳳部長也有說明過嘛我們目前書法部的就是跟OneWeb的帝國衛星的一個合作部件的狀況大概是怎樣"},{"start":6620.311,"end":6635.302,"text":"目前情況 我們在台灣部建了770個那個點就是所謂的User Terminal所以OneWeb在台灣運行都是順暢的那當然是受到因為我們的預算被砍的關係所以那個我們實際維域的點會比較少一點190個而已 OK"},{"start":6639.065,"end":6660.382,"text":"是 所以其實如果說要以國家安全為前提為考量要來放寬這個外資的限制倒不如就是說支持預算嘛讓這個預算通過來支持我們部件更多的這樣子的接收的原盤嘛 是不是是 請委員多多支持 謝謝是 那"},{"start":6661.443,"end":6680.077,"text":"所以我們剛剛就是就我們主委跟部長的一個回答我們就可以知道說其實以現行的條文根本不會去影響到我們台灣就是有關這個電信業者跟就是這一些低軌衛星的這些業者的一個合作嘛對不對對實質上是不會影響"},{"start":6680.737,"end":6695.73,"text":"而且先天設計上可以讓本國業者也有參與本國的衛星發展技術也可以做一些銜接然後國安、治安、打炸大概相對效率上也有一定程度的保障"},{"start":6696.647,"end":6715.68,"text":"是 好 那我們再來看就是說本席有看到就是說在2023年7月的時候其實就有一則新聞就是這個彭博勝有一個新聞標題報導就是說馬斯克欲全權掌控在台的低軌衛星持股所以不利台灣推動數位潤性"},{"start":6717.401,"end":6729.589,"text":"所以我們看到今天這樣子的一個增修條文要放寬外資的限定不免讓外界質疑說這樣子條文是不是特定在替這個信念在解套"},{"start":6731.245,"end":6751.172,"text":"主委跟部長看法如何我們法律條文寫都是一般性的一般都是通案適用所以如果再更好的如果現行條文改的如果超越過往當然是現行修正條文當然是沒問題但是現行修正條文會有幾個疑慮大概有兩個"},{"start":6752.645,"end":6774.237,"text":"情勢變更就是STARLINK SPACE它目前的那個第二代的衛星它可以它沒有要求在每個國家陸地國家設Gateway不設Gateway最大的問題是數據主權的問題就是說它是用邏輯設計上提供資訊給你不管是通電清查不管是你做它一些資料使用的一些追蹤那些都是"},{"start":6775.077,"end":6793.219,"text":"不是physical layer不是基礎層以上的若你有設備業的話他是從基礎層開始提供給你這個會實打實的一些掌握對國家安全對通訊對治安會比較掌握但對業者的發展兩個部分對衛星產業的部分如果沒有本國參與的話大概也比較不好"},{"start":6793.8,"end":6816.884,"text":"那對本國的電信業者 孤網也好 先網也好第二代的Starlink它未來可以取代掉這個行動通信的可能大增因為它最近取得52項的新的專利這個是讓它以後傳這個影音都可以目前它手機之前只能傳簡訊 是相對差但是它第二代的衛星之後 它這些功能"},{"start":6818.184,"end":6835.929,"text":"突然變得很強這個對未來產業會有影響所以我也要觀察對本國產業的影響所以我們才建議說要多聽相關利害關係人的看法是 那個本來想接著問就是放寬公眾電信網路外資持股限制可能產生的影響那剛剛主委都有講了"},{"start":6836.949,"end":6865.589,"text":"所以其實我們也都知道就是說我們從平常的這個媒體報導就可以看得出來這個馬斯克他是極度傾中的而且這些都不是這些都是有事實根據的因為他都屢次公開發表親中的言論向中國市所以我們也覺得說如果未來這樣子的一個親中企業掌握我們台灣的關鍵基礎設施我們就是台灣如果面臨緊急狀況的時候我們的風險是否可以"},{"start":6866.249,"end":6886.574,"text":"就是說在可控的範圍之內 我覺得這是我們擔憂的所以這可能會讓我們國家更陷於這個危險的一個境地那另外我們也看到就是說 即使星鏈它也是成為詐團詐騙的一個使用工具因為這個都是有事實發生的一個記錄因為在緬甸詐騙園區被"},{"start":6891.015,"end":6913.172,"text":"圍剿之後那他也急速的死灰復燃因為他就是大規模的利用這個星鏈上網那所以我們台灣也有這個詐騙集團用馬斯克的星鏈加深尾技術去盜用這個就是照片這個臉臉的識別所以去進行詐騙所以我覺得說這個星鏈未來如果進入台灣市場"},{"start":6913.852,"end":6935.382,"text":"我們要怎樣去監理 如何監理 這個都是我們要去很慎重的去考慮的一個地方對 所以我講的重點就是說在治安上的一些效率 配合度效率如何因為過往在打仗上一些國外公司 國外數位平台公司的配合度其實曾經是一個很大的挑戰那如果沒有本國業者參與的話 這個挑戰"},{"start":6937.143,"end":6961.48,"text":"存在的風險是相對比較大的 如果有本國參與的話這個風險可以達到一定程度的掌控 效率也可能會比較提升所以這才說是都要通盤考量 一時關照的所以我們覺得說 這個是否要放寬這個外資的一個限制我覺得這真的是一個非常要慎重的一個議題那再來就是說 未來我們台灣是否可以發展自己的低軌衛星"},{"start":6963.622,"end":6989.241,"text":"目前這個TASA就是台灣的NSP後續的國內的原來太空計畫室其實有在發展自己的體系那如果說國內業者假設例如這個STARLINK有國內業者參與我相信這個技術的一些傳承的一些參與可以有利於本國的衛星發展這也是一個"},{"start":6989.901,"end":7018.28,"text":"要考量的因素那如果就今天外資全部開全部豁免的話那本國要要如何去借機如何學習這一塊的可能性就消失了這個也要考量所以我覺得說為了國家的安全考量我們台灣也應該要積極發展自己的地位衛星那我想我們台灣的人才基地我想這個部分也有帶我們就是NCC跟速發部去做這個資源的一個整合希望我們未來"},{"start":7018.94,"end":7039.402,"text":"可以有朝這個方向去發展好 謝謝好 謝謝委員謝謝委員的支持 謝謝好 謝謝陳書業委員也謝謝我們部長跟主委待會委員許志傑詢答之後我們休息十分鐘那我們休息結束之後再來處理這個臨時提案那我們接下來請何新淳委員發言"},{"start":7045.083,"end":7050.18,"text":"好 謝謝 見好招委那我們是不是請數位發展部林部長好 請林部長"},{"start":7057.703,"end":7084.775,"text":"部長好我想我還是比較關心民生議題喔那這個詐騙喔這個打詐國家隊喔大家都是對數位發展部期待非常深啦希望能夠呢數位發展部用專業用你們跟平台的溝通用很多很多的方式要深入民心讓大家有感覺得國家打詐隊是有效的啦但是呢我今天要問的是喔讓大家覺得"},{"start":7086.036,"end":7089.861,"text":"我去年6月有質詢TRADE的廣告之前沒有納管當然我也很高興我們政府數位發展部也從善如流我6月質詢 9月就納管"},{"start":7104.338,"end":7131.129,"text":"因為那時候大家對Trade開始可以除了發文發圖發照片之外那個詐騙量越來越多所以我們要求了這Trade的廣告要納管要落實身份驗證就是實物制廣告的投放的揭露詐騙內容一定要儘速的下架就納入在我們這個網路平台的這樣子一樣的一個規範裡面但是來下一頁我們發現"},{"start":7133.95,"end":7138.795,"text":"廣告審查重演之後,這個炸團反而又更厲害了現在轉換手法,這個不僅僅是媒體也有報導過有很多的店家,他自己開始發文,發文什麼?因為他們的名稱,他們店家的商品"},{"start":7156.975,"end":7168.712,"text":"資訊等等被冒用了所以為什麼這個是最上面的詐騙型手段第一個透過廣告投放實名制他們沒有辦法通過認證之後所以他開始利用什麼熱門的關鍵制"},{"start":7172.237,"end":7190.906,"text":"熱門的關鍵字包括商品可能是電玩啊日用品啊現在最夯的是什麼化妝品之類的他開始利用這個關鍵字假冒真實店家的名號那大量的投放複製這個相關的內容文章那取得演算法的關鍵字推薦"},{"start":7192.455,"end":7210.263,"text":"那很多民眾不曉得所以呢可能就會下單下單之後呢就是誘騙民眾私訊那取得個資或者販賣假貨那這個就是現在Trade上面廣告沒有辦法了那就換什麼換冒用真實店家"},{"start":7211.363,"end":7228.575,"text":"冒名鋪文又騙民眾的個資跟榨取財物這個是現在新的手法而且非常大量下一頁你看喔我們從這個推上面看到許許多多的店家的無奈的澄清文"},{"start":7229.571,"end":7254.576,"text":"而且這些文章是大量的被傳播那不僅僅是民眾的財務被榨取店家的名譽也受損我的服務處也有很多人來陳情那很多人打電話來跟我說什麼他訂的貨他沒收到或是他訂的貨呢是一個劣質品來要求他店家要賠償那還跑來服務處問說那我們需要法律諮詢那我們該怎麼辦"},{"start":7255.856,"end":7281.963,"text":"好 那這實質上面該怎麼辦那第一個報警 該由警政署來辦第二個 平台的下架的速度慢傷害一直造成這個新聞也已經很多次報導過那很多有的這個社群的這個因為他這樣子的一個文章被冒名擴散影響到他店家的生意甚至讓他坐不下去會倒店所以脆上面的詐騙問題到現在有增無減"},{"start":7285.755,"end":7303.787,"text":"這個部分其實我就是要來跟我們部長來請教一下在下一頁尤其警政署也提過事情這TRADE的詐騙量顯著的增加而且依法我們現在依法是要儘速下架因為如果越快下架的話第一個可以"},{"start":7304.968,"end":7322.468,"text":"確保民眾被詐騙財物的風險降低第二個店家被冒名的這個頻率或者是他受到的損失可以降低這個問題是在於我們到底能不能第一個下架的速度快可不可以"},{"start":7323.619,"end":7343.908,"text":"是 跟委員報告那個處理這個Thread這種詐騙那個基本上我們可以從三方面來著手第一個就是加快通報的速度那我們在這邊要呼籲就是說民眾如果遇到有這種可疑的那個訊息在Thread上面有可疑訊息的話請下載使用那個網詐通報查詢網把這個事情那個通報上來"},{"start":7344.608,"end":7369.619,"text":"那同胞上來就是第一個部分然後第二個我們要加快那個確認這個是不是假店家的這個速度那因為我們以前比較沒有處理這種店家你們現在如果要確定這個下架之前的程序大概要多久的時間我們如果是找那個譬如說之前公眾人物的話只要公眾人物一確定的話我們大概我們現在平均應該是幾個小時之內我們就幾個小時五個小時兩個小時之內"},{"start":7372.08,"end":7396.691,"text":"這是有名的公眾人物兩個小時以內可以下架那請問一下我剛剛講的這個跟委員報告其實這個問題就在於說如果有人仿冒謝金河的話我們就可以去那個聯絡謝金河或者他的那個辦公室的助理啊但是有些這個店家我們也不認識我也不知道他在哪裡所以這個是我們要解決的問題來來來上一頁無奈的店家的無奈的陳清文已經在推上很多了耶知道啦新聞報導也報導很多次了"},{"start":7399.372,"end":7421.543,"text":"甚至有人還會因為這樣子而倒閉是的 我也不是這個意思我的意思是說我們已經跟謝金額或者是張忠謀或者黃仁勳的辦公室我們已經取得了固定的聯絡方式但是這些店家可能都是第一次被人家冒用然後因為全台灣有這麼多的店家這個事情其實也不是我們抒發應該這樣講如果說有名的公眾人物你取得"},{"start":7427.746,"end":7448.793,"text":"溝通管道可以聯絡的管道你可以處理那我們現在針對這麼多店家被冒用被詐騙集團利用那民眾的財務受損店家的名譽受損那我們針對這些無奈只能在網路上勾成親吻的這些店家我們可以提供什麼樣的專線什麼平台可以幫忙"},{"start":7451.634,"end":7479.407,"text":"當然就是我們要趕快跟這些店家聯絡但是因為這些店家都不像謝金河或張忠謀那麼有名所以我現在就是要跟委員解釋就是說我們會朝這個方向去努力我們想辦法利用其他的機制去跟他確認譬如這個可能需要經濟部或者是內政部就是警政單位的協助我們總是要做確認否則的話有人萬一那個謊報不是 再上一頁"},{"start":7480.347,"end":7488.547,"text":"部長我之所以為什麼要確認我們能不能提供一個管道或平台讓這些受害的店家可以找得到"},{"start":7489.657,"end":7513.886,"text":"解決或者是找得到政府的支持 你要知道像這些詐騙的假網拍 居罐 轉網 上司 煙彈 竄生 毒品的第二大宗也就是說現在這些店家被冒名 他買賣的商品可能不只是他自己所推銷行銷的商品"},{"start":7515.166,"end":7533.454,"text":"甚至是透過這些店家因為他們被冒用了所以變成是一個販賣毒品 毒品交易的一個網路下的地下管道那這個是一個很可怕的一件事情很多的家長會擔心是因為"},{"start":7534.494,"end":7554.268,"text":"用這樣的管道這些毒品的取得非常的隱密而且快速跟方便這個是對我們整個社會來講大家是不能容許的也是希望政府要拿出魄力能夠積極因應所以我才會說也許你剛剛講不是只有數位發展部的責任"},{"start":7555.569,"end":7571.909,"text":"那我要求的是數位發展部在跟平台溝通下架的速度要快第二個對於這些名譽受損的店家或者是被冒名的店家或者是因為這些管道變成是毒品的一個這個"},{"start":7573.411,"end":7595.79,"text":"交易流通的一個線下的管道要跟我們警政署好好的來合作嘛不是嗎那你除了警政單位除了你數位發展部那我們平台這些要求他競速下架的一個時效性不能說有名的公眾人物我可以要求兩個小時以內下架那這些店家"},{"start":7596.551,"end":7622.446,"text":"再次跟委員解釋一下 這個處理分成三段 第一個是通報第二個是確認 第三部分是通知那個平台下架我們政府是不是要有一個機制來呼籲大家說你們被騙了或是被冒用了是不是可以有一個通報的機制是 這個就是我們的網照通報查詢網就是我剛才講的就是網照通報查詢網就只有那一個查詢網我們速發部是負責這個 然後如果要用內政部的話那就是用那個165打詐專網"},{"start":7625.106,"end":7640.326,"text":"那個內政部有他們的服務內政部的那個165基本上他們是必須處理已經成案就是已經有財損的那我們速發部這邊會處理一些還沒有造成傷害的我們事先處理這是我們網站通話查詢網的目的所以我們要鼓勵民眾多多使用"},{"start":7640.706,"end":7663.963,"text":"今天警政單位有沒有啦 我不知道啦但是我還是提醒訴法部啦因為這些數據是你們網路的詐騙通報裡面呢 由數字來看近30日的通報數據過去催戰通報比例的28%近7日 這是最新的數據近7日來催戰通報比例已經高達64%那表示"},{"start":7666.885,"end":7681.778,"text":"這一個新型的網路詐騙的在Trade上面這個平台上的案件量是非常急劇的暴增那如何來打擊如何保護我們民眾跟店家的權益我覺得第一個要快第二個"},{"start":7682.398,"end":7710.744,"text":"你要多久的時間內把這個相關的單位找來把你剛剛說的從通報第一步第二步第三步把這個完整的SOP能夠提供給我們所有受害的店家也好影響的民眾權益也好能夠呢及早的來防範而且讓他們可以知道從哪裡可以得到政府的支持好委員我們那個提出那個說明報告給您好不好好啊多久"},{"start":7712.518,"end":7727.362,"text":"兩週內我們提供兩週內你給我書面報告那我書面報告裡面要求你們要把跟相關單位的一個協商或者是開會建立的機制內容細節都要寫清楚說清楚好不好是可以沒問題好謝謝委員好謝謝何定成委員的發言那接下來請這個許志傑委員發言"},{"start":7743.873,"end":7766.736,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請NCC主委好 謝謝 請NCC陳代主委主委好主委好 我們NCC現在有三位委員嘛是 目前現在三位任期到什麼時候今年7月317月31 那我們卓院長也希望說趕快再提嘛"},{"start":7767.714,"end":7796.938,"text":"是 昨天大院會有提到你要呼籲就是在野黨盡量能夠國家的需要不要再阻擋了那萬一他們再阻擋如果我們卓院長盡力但沒有十足把握如果提出來沒有過那到了7月31以後是不是就委員全部都卸任了是的 沒錯那到時候NCC怎麼運作"},{"start":7797.915,"end":7821.988,"text":"大家都雖然想像大家都很焦慮很焦慮所以NCC的公務員就停擺了這個問題是大家都會覺得不應該讓它發生我知道其實不是你很焦慮我也很焦慮以前監察院曾經有監察委員全部都沒有半個人的記錄那"},{"start":7825.72,"end":7848.874,"text":"監察院裡面的業務就全部都停擺所以這個其實我們很不樂意看到啦那也希望說卓院長能夠盡快我知道這不是你決定啦但是卓院長盡快再溝通啦那也希望在野黨真的是為了國家的正常運作那不要再擋了啦"},{"start":7849.793,"end":7870.581,"text":"因為現在有很多民間 事實上有很多包括宜萍業務 包括其他很多需要委員決定的都卡住了嘛對 沒錯所以這個我們就再一次的鄭重的呼籲啦就是希望左院長盡力溝通 那在野黨真的不要再擋讓我們NCC可以正常的運作好"},{"start":7873.325,"end":7901.545,"text":"那之前其實我有跟那個NCC也質詢過就是網路媒體剛剛星淳也問了嘛就有很多這一種詐騙那這一種新聞的自律那NCC也也訂了網路的使用的指引嘛那現在就是網路的他們也有一些自律的聯盟對"},{"start":7903.926,"end":7925.291,"text":"那再來就是說AI應用的新聞也越來越多了嘛所以年輕人在寫新聞有些時候就直接用AI來寫嘛那這個的審核機制或者是指引主委你們NCC的看法是怎麼樣"},{"start":7925.942,"end":7955.602,"text":"是跟委員報告分兩大區塊傳統媒體部分上次跟委員報告過說我們委託製作會那個已經跟業者跟專家學者都已經溝通過那業者自己國際工會也好電視學會也好他們都提出自己的版本那我們近期也會再開再找電信業者來再對接一下雙方的一些共識希望這個傳統廣電的部分的AI指引能夠進一步優化"},{"start":7956.442,"end":7975.317,"text":"至於網路上的部分我們網傳辦這邊大概預計要提出五個指引就是當初就是比照這個當初DSA那些印法那國內目前這個當初訴訟法比較沒有辦法推社會各界沒有共識的情況之下我們用軟法處理"},{"start":7976.798,"end":7992.631,"text":"五個指引裡頭去年推出的申訴救濟跟透明度的指引那另外一個OTT還有這個法規適用的指引這些東西往陸續還有相關一些透明度大概陸續今年明年都會提出來"},{"start":7993.231,"end":8009.866,"text":"那AI的部分AI的應用部分我們最主要是要讓民眾還有讓業者都能夠持續的一些進進那正如這個先前也有人提問過說因為AI大概是從前年開始比較爆發性的所以在應用上我們希望這個與時俱進在"},{"start":8012.688,"end":8036.282,"text":"在民眾端的素養培力跟業者端的這些部分我們都有持續來投入大概113年從我們網路這一塊的培力的一些宣講宣導也好還有議題的設定都已經有包含這個AI的部分簡單的講啦主委就是說你這個指引前面已經寫了三個那還要到明年嗎"},{"start":8037.922,"end":8060.016,"text":"我們總共預計我們是持續在滾動檢討五個職業裡頭兩個已經去年年底已經推出來了那另外三個部分我們今年預計會起碼會推出至少一個啦那就是包括剛剛跟委員報告所提到的現在AI速度這麼快那使用者這麼多"},{"start":8065.207,"end":8087.404,"text":"AI這一塊因為是統合在我們的其他AI基本法的一些架構下我們有做配合行政所屬機關做一些相關的一些一些協調性的一些處理包括這個該有的執法該的行政規則該納入都納入那我們剛剛跟委員報告過在我們的我的意思是說這樣子速度到明年會不會覺得太慢"},{"start":8090.108,"end":8108.255,"text":"我們會持續在傳統廣電部分我們是已經在優化版本已經出來了那這個至於這個網路媒體的部分在我們其實當初我們去年版本也有一個版本那今年有在台灣這個網路媒體這個這個這個協會的我們請他持續優化這個也會把這個AI從種植到分植裡頭的一些項目裡頭其實他"},{"start":8115.017,"end":8140.506,"text":"本質就是要報導新聞網路新聞一定要以事實為基礎那這一塊的話就是牽涉到事實查證所以最基本的概念就是該標示就要標示你講這個我們都知道啦現在我們就希望說不要等到明年啦因為這個指引你趕快定出來讓那個所有的業者有一個方向可選那這個你先把這個當方向定出來"},{"start":8142.435,"end":8165.556,"text":"這個還要等到明年我覺得現在才四月傳統媒體部分我們一定今年會定改因為我們大概是下個月就會再跟業者在第二次開會來對接所以今年部分我們大概應該就下個月開第二次座談會來收斂因為他是開過他們有他自己的意見他們自己提出版本嘛"},{"start":8167.41,"end":8196.112,"text":"網路的這一塊我們有持續在推在目前在網路新聞業者他自己雖然有訂規範有訂指引那我們未來我們這邊在既有原來另外三個指引裡頭如果可以包進去的我們會把它強化啦我們會考量說需不需要再進一步把它獨立出來我們也會一定拿去考量重點就是說你們今下個月會再開公聽會收斂嘛對那收斂這些意見嘛是所以你比如說六七月"},{"start":8197.353,"end":8221.958,"text":"其實這個大家都等很久了啦那我想自律或者是說你沒有辦法用硬法那你至少軟法的方向你先把它指名讓大家就是有一個規則可選嘛所以這個世間還要等太久我是覺得這個真的是不合時宜現在速度這麼快的時代尤其是AI速度更快那你現在都要拖那麼久"},{"start":8222.942,"end":8244.273,"text":"我們是預計在上半年就是7月底以前會把他對呀 你看7月31搞不好以後就沒有委員啦但是該做的我們常理委員會持續努力所以是不是在7月31以前就趕快把它做完好 我們朝著目標來努力好吧 最後一個我簡單要求啦就是說那個"},{"start":8245.549,"end":8259.264,"text":"訊號遮蔽器這個已經有業者違規那我想你們也有負責說要表示開罰所以他們也有撤除但是這個太多了"},{"start":8260.787,"end":8283.726,"text":"這個我想很多到的網路去買都有買得到那是不是這個部分我們要怎麼樣去防範蔚藍那叫你們主動去查可能你們也查不完啦我們有找這個電商平台有跟他們宣導也謝謝數位部他們的那個數產署有幫我們在電商是他們主管有幫忙幫我們宣傳達說這個"},{"start":8287.029,"end":8308.468,"text":"上架的產品裡頭這些是違禁品不得上架我們是盡可能就是不斷的去把不該上架的器材都給他拿掉那事後的部分事後如果有民眾檢舉我們也會去處理所以對你剛講的沒有錯我是建議就是這樣就兩個方向一個方向就是電商"},{"start":8309.963,"end":8328.152,"text":"因為你要去抓抓不完啦但是你用電商當作源頭嘛源頭如何去減少或禁止類似的案件的發生這是第一個第二個就是開放民眾檢舉你們也應該再open宣傳讓民眾知道"},{"start":8328.952,"end":8352.627,"text":"就這兩個動作我們要做才能夠是減少這樣一個違法的行為所以我是認為宣傳當然這個有案例新聞有播出來當然就會有宣傳的效果啦那電商的源頭的部分我認為你們可以再加強好我們會持續加強就減少這樣子一個不好的行為再繼續發生好不好好沒問題好謝謝好謝謝委員好謝謝許志堅委員的發言"},{"start":8357.613,"end":8359.62,"text":"謝謝我們主委那我們現在先休息十分鐘"},{"start":8381.446,"end":8382.226,"text":"鲍鱼"},{"start":8405.179,"end":8420.384,"text":"謝謝觀賞"},{"start":8422.354,"end":8423.735,"text":"鸡蛋糕"},{"start":8450.247,"end":8472.278,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":8475.919,"end":8476.9,"text":"沒有啦 不去打啦"},{"start":8969.301,"end":8991.484,"text":"好 我們繼續開會 我們現在先處理臨時提案 請議事人員宣讀臨時提案一 鑒於政府機關經營社群媒體的成效良語直接影響政策品質 溝通品質及政府形象不完整之評估機制 同導致社群營運流於形式與資源浪費"},{"start":8992.105,"end":9012.318,"text":"原此要求數位發展部應依照五大共面之衡量指標建構一個政府機關社群服務之營運與檢核機制以完善各機關社群服務之評鑑辦法並請於一個月內向本委員會提出書面報告提案委員黃建豪、邱若驊、魯明哲宣讀完畢"},{"start":9015.233,"end":9027.064,"text":"好 請問各位委員跟機關有無意見那一位委員我是提案委員我沒有什麼特別意見想問一下這個現場委員有意見嗎沒有齁 看看機關這邊有沒有要修正文字還是有什麼意見表達市長你來電會議會議先討論之後等一下再出文"},{"start":9042.617,"end":9050.778,"text":"我們先等一下這個機關好沒關係欸張偉那我們這個原則上是在那個12345"},{"start":9073.557,"end":9091.409,"text":"第七行的後面因為數位發展部早於民國106年那時候我們還沒成立所以那時候這一份文件是國家發展委員會所以我們說事實上數發部這邊我們改掉就是國家發展委員會瓜湖目前由數位發展部承接"},{"start":9092.486,"end":9121.475,"text":"然後就是就是數位發展部找剛剛這六個字我們把它刪掉改成國家發展委員會瓜葫目前由數位發展部承接瓜葫這樣那接下來在倒數第三行的部分委員提案建構一個政府機關那我們中間建構一個改善政府機關社群服務之營業與檢核機制然後以完善"},{"start":9122.375,"end":9150.295,"text":"各機關社群服務之平均化這個我們就刪除然後並請一個月內向本委員會提出書面報告這樣那你那整句話你改完之後整句話可以再重複一次對 這如果改的話就是建構一個改善政府政府機關社群服務之營運與檢核機制並請一個月內向本委員會提出書面報告好 謝謝沒有意見那我們就改一個完整的版本這樣好 再麻煩你們好 謝謝"},{"start":9152.045,"end":9163.458,"text":"好 那說明後修正通過那臨時提案處理完畢如果有委員對於上述提案要補簽可以列入紀錄並刊登公報那我們現在繼續進行詢答請陳青龍召委來發言"},{"start":9174.697,"end":9188.335,"text":"好 謝謝主席那在這裡我來邀請我們NCC的陳代理主委還有我們蘇拉部的林部長好 請陳代理主委跟林部長"},{"start":9189.451,"end":9214.031,"text":"好 首先我們就直接我們代理主委跟部長早那今天我想我們最重要的針對我們電信管理法的一個修法第36條的修法我相信今天早上我們陳代理主委"},{"start":9214.991,"end":9241.185,"text":"也回答了我們很多委員的質詢當然我們這個修法的提案那我們也都有了解那在這裡針對外國人的這樣的一個股本跟外國人的持股比例這些要求那我想我在這邊就直接問我們這個陳代理主委"},{"start":9242.305,"end":9244.406,"text":"我們這邊的態度怎麼樣針對這個修法針對我們對這樣的一個可能對我們的國際通訊的這樣的一個開放我們的態度"},{"start":9258.732,"end":9283.537,"text":"跟總召報告都是幾點第一點就是現行的條文如果沒有修正其實是可以操作的那如果說針對國家認定國安或者政府部門的需求的話其實可以另行比方說考量跟對方洽談土壁或土基就是government另外特別處理比方說採這個專用電信的話就完全不會適用36條用50條就可以處理"},{"start":9286.297,"end":9300.202,"text":"第二個意見補充第三個意見補充是那性情的條文跟如果要修正因為要考量這個數據主權跟國安等等我建議我們這邊是建議說還要多聽相關人的意見以上"},{"start":9301.562,"end":9326.81,"text":"那從我們主委這邊我們談到就是說其實這一部修法目前如果不送吧其實就現有的一個規定現有的條文應該就可以來容許我們這個國際的這樣的一個低軌衛星進入到我們台灣的市場對不對是"},{"start":9329.512,"end":9348.549,"text":"應該沒問題所以目前事實上也有好幾個業者跟我們國內在配合嘛國內業者配合對這總到目前的畫面上所顯示目前都是選現有的條文走進來帶台灣落地的對啊所以基本上有沒有修改條文等於說"},{"start":9349.969,"end":9374.306,"text":"基本上不影響我們現有的國際衛星通訊進入台灣市場那如果依主委剛剛的意思如果有進一步的需要可能要再多聽多了解是不是真正的有這樣的必要對不對好 那我在這裡我們第二頁好不好我要了解的那個我們下一頁"},{"start":9376.588,"end":9387.192,"text":"我們也知道目前整個最重要的一個衛星通信系統最主要目前我們一般民眾啊擔心的是詐騙的問題嘛 詐騙的問題那當然對國家來講對我們來講國安的一個風險也是非常重要那今天如果"},{"start":9399.418,"end":9415.562,"text":"我們對這個微信通信這樣的一個系統就剛剛主委所談我們沒有我們的一個國內我們的業者沒有我們的一個要求完全開放給外國國際進來這樣對整個國安的風險會有一個顯出的一個影響"},{"start":9425.444,"end":9452.414,"text":"那就這樣我是不是在這邊再請我們主委你針對詐騙跟公安風險這兩個項目你們來做一個說明好不好是跟總裁報告這個詐騙防詐獲的治安部分其實就涉及到說有本國業者參與的情況跟沒有本國業者參與的情況它的效率上的呈現出來就是不太一樣"},{"start":9453.695,"end":9477.516,"text":"這個已經在平台那邊已經發現已經淺現那至於國安這一塊其實它是兩個面向它是互相矛盾的就韌性而言任何低軌衛星特別是這個STARLINK它是韌性最好的但是國安上呢國安上它其實另外一個面向它的第二代它其實可以在台灣它可以不用設Gateway不用設Gateway的話另外國安問題來了"},{"start":9479.037,"end":9495.637,"text":"因為樹地主權不在我們台灣這邊所以這個會是矛盾的現象那是矛盾 相互矛盾那照片的部分我們從過去的經驗沒有國人的產育我們未來能夠來可控性我們就降低"},{"start":9496.618,"end":9524.644,"text":"所以這一方面也請你們評估那另外這樣的一個修法會不會違反我們電信管理建立自主的一致性我在這邊也提出這樣的一個建議就成如剛剛主委所談我們目前的36條其實就可以來運行那如果為單一的一個廠商如果來"},{"start":9526.54,"end":9548.341,"text":"調整開放那會不會違反電信建立制度的一致性那也會形成我們市場排擠還有我們所謂我們自己電信管理法我們自己所談的公平競爭原則所以我在這裡還是要建議有關於這個"},{"start":9551.064,"end":9576.81,"text":"最近管理法36條是否修正了真的還要更加的審慎多以評估那也要保障我們通訊的主權這樣一定要去做到審慎的把關完善的配搭而能降低我們剛剛談的不管是詐騙不管是國安這樣都能夠把風險來降低好"},{"start":9578.03,"end":9594.578,"text":"那在這裡我要再提一個另外一個主題就是我們現在我們有很多的一個民眾大家感受到非常困擾的就是偷拍偷拍這個狀況我們"},{"start":9598.2,"end":9622.836,"text":"目前還想在網路搜尋成為一個關鍵字那透過真空攝影機來進行偷拍我們從今年從2月到現在我們已經有好幾個案子是涉瑞數目的案件那我們民眾在我們政府的公共政策網路的參與平台也提案"},{"start":9623.797,"end":9652.916,"text":"希望就真孔攝影機啊能夠來做源頭的管理那這個真孔攝影機啊我們一般業者都標榜齁它是經過我們NCC的審核尤其在我們網路平台在販售齁在平台在販售就是說經過我們NCC的審核這個合格那就變成合格"},{"start":9653.817,"end":9674.204,"text":"就合法然後這個偷拍的風險就全民來承擔那我想說我們在審查這個是怎麼去審查NCC怎麼去審查是跟總統報告真孔攝影機大概分兩大類一個是無線一個是有線無線部分他會利用這個攝影頻率去傳"},{"start":9676.505,"end":9691.281,"text":"那這一塊就有NCC的角色NCC在管啊對不對那如果是有限部分那個是屬於一般商品一般商品的話即便是無限的話一般商品大概經濟部的BSMI就是標準檢驗局那邊也會有一些處理那如果源頭上要管制"},{"start":9691.681,"end":9717.159,"text":"假設說全台灣有公司說這類產品就不要再製造了那恐怕就是相關這個商品的主管機關他如果取得說我想不要把主管機關推到經濟部就覺得有色品的部分還是在我們這邊那網路平台現在在販賣在購買非常的方便"},{"start":9717.879,"end":9737.842,"text":"我想我們速發部這邊也針對網路平台這邊的販售我想今天在這邊提出來是希望我們包括NCC包括我們速發部能夠針對這樣的一個無限的真空攝影機這樣在平台的"},{"start":9740.184,"end":9767.445,"text":"這個方便的購買放售那也看到了我們審查合格既然我們有審議有審查我們應該是不是兩個部會啊做一些探討討論來檢討我們現在的制度可能不能就來反映民意來溯源來管理啊這個部分我想說請我們代理組委跟部長這邊做一些研究好不好"},{"start":9768.225,"end":9775.008,"text":"沒有問題 我們會找相關部會來討論說原來如何來處理好 以上謝謝 謝謝兩位 謝謝謝謝總召好 謝謝我們陳慶隆總召的發言 謝謝我們部長安主委接下來請陳雪生委員發言好 謝謝趙委員 是不是請"},{"start":9810.017,"end":9825.005,"text":"陳書偉請陳書偉請問一下那個衛星廣播電視法第五條第五十條一百一十五年一月三十日通過了這個行政案公布了沒有?復署了沒有?行政案沒有復署沒有復署"},{"start":9827.045,"end":9855.6,"text":"沒有附屬那現在有限電視這個咧如果通過了也不附屬的話你們準備怎麼處理啊因為不附屬的後續的效果的效果部分我們因為權責不在於我們都尊重啦但是我相信如果說個案上發生在未廣法的情況未必會發生在有廣法跟無廣法這個政治領域下的專業"},{"start":9857.776,"end":9874.363,"text":"你們這破壞了整個法規體系啊你們沒有辦法嗎你通過委員會你們自己有委員會啊對不對復屬不復屬全職不在NCCNCC這邊比較沒有辦法來處理你們怎麼應對這樣呢"},{"start":9876.499,"end":9902.312,"text":"那如果就今天這個召委排的案子的部分我們基本上是支持我們的意見是說要跟衛廣法當初三讀通過版本一致的就是我們是支持這方面的方向來處理不是我們審的幹什麼你審了好半天行政院不復甦你審的也是白審的啊浪費那麼多人力在這邊跟委員報告如果是純粹就黨政界這一塊的條例修正我相信應該共識度滿高的應該不會發生這種情況"},{"start":9907.477,"end":9923.871,"text":"所以我問你,49台是不是新聞台?目前是請教說綠的還是藍的?還是白的?以NCE的立場,NCE不分藍綠,就是說看看有沒有違規來處理不分藍綠齁來,我來隨便找一個你們的誰?綜合國家處你做什麼回答?49台是藍的還是綠的?"},{"start":9936.132,"end":9961.928,"text":"他一直罵國民黨罵民進黨,你就看得出來那邊是誰的嘛,你沒看電視嗎?你們NCC如果不看電視的話你們還NCC喔?是藍的還綠的?還?評論嘛罵,他沒有講過哪一台的好話沒有不認為說他是藍或是綠我這樣喔?我過去看一下醫生好不好?你整個神經麻木啦"},{"start":9964.351,"end":9975.958,"text":"那個國小國中小孩都聽得懂啊你聽不懂啊公務員保持行政中立那我們是...那梁處長咧?你看49台是哪一台?是綠的還是藍的?呃...報告委員我家沒有有線電視所以我...喔你家沒有,好那你請坐平台,平台事業處詹處長"},{"start":9990.287,"end":10013.274,"text":"是綠還藍的五十台好了啦五十台好啦民視啦,民視哪一台是藍還是綠的我們其實都尊重每個電視台自己的那個立場好你請坐啦,不為難你們了你也不敢回答是不是,主任委員不敢回答"},{"start":10014.593,"end":10021.858,"text":"黨政軍退出媒體我來立法院十幾年了國民黨執政的時候民進黨要求黨政軍退出媒體現在黨政軍全力的介入媒體49、50、51、52、53沒有講過國民黨一句好話的"},{"start":10041.677,"end":10068.498,"text":"趙少康那台TVBS也沒講過綠的一句好話的這個有什麼關係嘛白是白黑是黑你被顛倒跟搞核能一樣不搞核能的時候你搞核電的話台灣會怎麼樣怎麼樣你聽聽看好不好所以前幾年吳宗憲委員在總諮詢的時候他也不要做院長上台"},{"start":10069.582,"end":10093.19,"text":"他直接講了五分鐘啊 騙啊不要啦 不好吧你們NCC有沒有超然獨立大聲一點講 有沒有超然獨立目前我們都有目前我擔任委員之後相信過往的委員也是依法行政前幾年李昶祖密到我辦公室來"},{"start":10094.827,"end":10123.598,"text":"英俊挺拔年輕有為現在這個頭髮你看看什麼頭皮膚也孬了歲數也大了你經過藍綠委員的洗禮我真的很同情你謝謝委員我真的也不要給你太多壓力你審議上我也不曉得怎麼辦要把你刪掉又不給你做事對不對給你錢嘛你又在那邊胡搞瞎搞我預算很少是大部分的零頭不到"},{"start":10124.417,"end":10139.953,"text":"你怎麼超然獨立法,你講嘛113年投訴案件有多少件,你講投訴案件投訴案件新聞喔新聞有112年你們罰了有5件,罰了260萬廣告的呢?廣告多少件?"},{"start":10148.539,"end":10160.713,"text":"廣告罰了一千零二十萬,一百一十二年,一百一十三年不見了,沒有監督了嗎?沒處理了?沒處理了?都處理了,有有都有圖表這裏面有沒有處理?"},{"start":10162.701,"end":10180.436,"text":"就是有些要上委員會的沒辦法處理其他大概有些是很明確的比方說酒類超時不該的時段來播送酒類廣告那些我們都有處理投訴什麼意思嘛投訴以後到你們那裡就石沉大海四個字我們都有在處理就是照有些是處理多久了"},{"start":10182.28,"end":10195.09,"text":"多元意見的比方說他有沒有違反事實查證這些東西要上委員會的你不要跟那個昨天我質詢那個運銷那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個那個"},{"start":10214.122,"end":10234.435,"text":"欸 多久了跟委員報告 其實我們的程序說一個吊帶 一個請業者打阿福園有涉違反事實的請業者提他臨委會然後上我們諮詢會議 然後上委員會議有些配上委員會 剛剛跟委員報告過比方說他酒列時段播出不對的話 我們就直接裁罰了有些上委員會的設計在對面你沒裁罰啊"},{"start":10235.416,"end":10254.817,"text":"你沒裁發你媒體監管你要公平公正嘛對不對是你沒有啊你根本沒辦啊這哪個單位辦的舉手來請舉手不是沒辦都有都有都有就是委員心目中的A顏色跟B顏色的台其實都有被罰過"},{"start":10256.803,"end":10280.933,"text":"主委啊你們做理事吧真的啊前面講打詐你打詐又沒做是不是你又沒監督媒體你又沒監督還有260萬還有1000萬罰一罰不管多或少總算也罰了一點你把中間再把他幹掉中間現在也開會也通過了你們來個不附屬我覺得我們立法院在幹什麼也不曉得你們在幹什麼"},{"start":10282.672,"end":10308.7,"text":"你們平常在那邊沒有沒有就是剛因為報告過了有些在上委員會之前的程序我們都有同仁都持續在進行該上諮詢會都有在處理就是我主委啊是國家的政事啊政務啊我們要正常的運轉你知道嗎不要大家在那邊打混啦你知道嗎我們都可以在一個無政府狀態是不是不要是一個無政府狀態這樣有問題不好啦好不好好"},{"start":10310.646,"end":10335.696,"text":"你們媒體監督這個很多,你去弄一弄,看看找個時間找個誰給我回報一下好,沒有問題既然我一直盯上了嘛,總要總起來啊,看看怎麼回事啊,好不好?是,好好,最後一個問題問你一下那個誰?是林部長嗎?是海嵐海嵐是你這邊還是?"},{"start":10337.67,"end":10342.885,"text":"兩邊都有,都是疊加的,CI部分是初步我再跟你講台馬3號海嵐,障礙"},{"start":10347.981,"end":10365.23,"text":"大陸一條漁船飄到我們東宇來東宇的船來去求救大陸就來了一個救援船這個救援船我想是應該經過許可才能夠進入我們的港區進來以後一定刮到海嵐海嵐3號然後海嵐3號發出警告訊號"},{"start":10368.991,"end":10385.98,"text":"警告信號一定通知海巡說有不明船隻來了現在海覽誰去碰他就是國安法三個字不是告訴哪一段是國安法那這樣很奇怪海巡跑去碰這條船"},{"start":10387.527,"end":10408.214,"text":"這是個救援船,跟紅石智慧一樣你現在把他抓起來了,你不放他回去,你就放在我們這裡問地檢署,地檢署說你們沒告,不告不理海巡說我只是你們通知我把船固定在那裡剩下就是你們開會"},{"start":10410.933,"end":10438.171,"text":"你們開會一個禮拜過去 兩個禮拜過去 三個禮拜過去欸 人家這個救援船很貴的啊是 我完全理解是 那個 委員水師這裡面是什麼問題呢有法律的問題嗎是 那個 跟委員報告這件事情我們會請就是各個單位我們去協調加快處理我說這個狀況就好像是高速公路上發生一個車禍結果兩照雙方就把車子停在路中間結果後面的車子都堵住了什麼事情都不用做那就趕快我們該蒐證的就蒐證該那個"},{"start":10441.113,"end":10460.274,"text":"那個測試的就測試然後趕快就讓大家不管是那個救援船那個他回去做他的事情然後趕快去進行修復然後後面的法律的這些事情我們再來走這個程序不要讓所有事情卡在那個地方救援船來救他救他要跟你碰壺一下救援船要賠錢嗎"},{"start":10462.482,"end":10488.997,"text":"這個事情抱歉那個是不是請任信司司長來來市長劉市長謝謝委員長期關注那根據我們現在掌握的狀況是航港局預計在4月24號就會開會那開會以後會確認他新的這個施工計畫呢是不是符合規定如果符合規定的方式去施工的話那雙方都不會提告就因為中華電力也不會提告但如果他沒有按照新的施工計畫去施工的話"},{"start":10489.617,"end":10514.33,"text":"後面可能就韓港局跟中華電信都會追究其行政的處罰跟賠償責任,你上報告這個叫什麼家衰啊,國語家衰有沒有,國語是不是叫家衰我救援團關我什麼事啊我跑去救他,然後我還去賠償什麼等一下來個幾千萬,不曉得一億兩億的,這什麼意思啊一個救護車我要去救人嘛對不對,兩趟發生車禍我去救"},{"start":10516.755,"end":10536.201,"text":"我救護車去,發生車禍的事情還想我救護車把人家撞了,或是撞傷致死或是幹什麼的,救護車責任還更大。現在國安法碰到海海的問題又扯到國安法了,到底是不是國安法?"},{"start":10537.611,"end":10565.278,"text":"真的很困擾欸你們趕快把這個事情釐清好不好因為這個救援船真的費用很高啊我知道那個了解委員的意思就是說這個法律的事情當然是交給法院去處理但是我們這個速發部現在就趕快去溝通想辦法讓這個事情趕快該修復我們現在最重要的是趕快把海馬三號這個海欄把它修復然後那個救援船就是讓它能去繼續去做營業因為那個之前委員提到三號這個據我了解是蠻輕微的啦"},{"start":10567.579,"end":10593.539,"text":"滿清委但是這裡面有責任你能夠放人家回去趕快放人家回去吧我們趕快去聯絡協調你們動作快一點因為我覺得底下基層的部門他也做不了主你們在上面的長官稍微用點心好不好你講一講一句話給他一個民視的方向好做好不好謝謝好謝謝謝謝好謝謝召委好謝謝陳景深委員的發言接下來我們請徐富奎委員發言"},{"start":10607.256,"end":10631.126,"text":"謝主席有請恩熙熙陳代理主委來請陳代理主委大家好主委好主委我想今天是針對這個電信三法的一個修正的一個草案的討論那當然這個我們回顧台灣的一個民主化的一個歷程黨政軍退出媒體不應該只是一個口號"},{"start":10631.966,"end":10661.417,"text":"那但是今天看到我們在野黨提出的這幾個修正案雖然打著接軌國際行政變靡的一個旗號那實際上面我們看到是在鬆動我們國家的一個防線甚至模糊我們黨政軍跟媒體的一個界線那這樣子站在NCC的角度我想我們的未來的發展不能是犧牲我們民主任性做一個代價也不能讓我們的關鍵通訊基礎建設跟公共論壇的一個空間缺乏一個嚴格的監理那所以我想主委"},{"start":10662.497,"end":10680.906,"text":"針對這樣子今天在黨提出的修正案將我們的處罰對象從媒體事業改成投資人那在事務上面對於市場上廣大的一個投資人NCC是不是有足夠的一個查核能力或行政手段可以來做一個進行一個裁處請諸位回答"},{"start":10681.286,"end":10709.523,"text":"是跟我們報告這一部分分成兩個區塊第一個是衛星頻道部分第二個區塊是有線電視的部分有線電視的部分我們大概去年在修衛廣法的時候我們大概有請同仁去跟業者來檢視盤整盤點過有線電視的部分以目前衛廣法的那個條文的部分是可以處理的都沒有超過1%間接投資都沒有超過1%"},{"start":10710.484,"end":10739.603,"text":"那衛廣頻道的部分就我們當初手上有當初違反黨証券被裁罰的案件來盤點過也沒有超過1%但是進一步去盤點正在申請的去年有通過衛廣法64條那他類頻道的一些購物台是有一家是超過1%但是其他的其他部分大概都還是在1%以內所以衛廣法通過的那1%其實是相對已經是可以處理到"},{"start":10740.924,"end":10767.584,"text":"完滿整的就是應該是可以處理啦那因為關係超過1%納價業者我們也跟他溝通過他未來應該是還是有方法可以去處理的主委當然我想這個針對這樣的1%的一個門檻那你們是不是有進行過一個產業的影響評估會不會對於我們整個這個我們的整個市場甚至這個整個發展上面會有受到一個很大的一個瓶頸"},{"start":10769.259,"end":10771.662,"text":"基本上我們也有評估過說這條紅線劃過去之後對業者衝擊還有對這個研究市場的一些影響那因為"},{"start":10781.151,"end":10807.417,"text":"去年底後今年年初在討論衛廣法的時候其實有其他委員也有提供相關的意見比方說上市公司這個一趴的股東其實相對都很大所以我們大概這一塊當初畫一趴這個紅線是有多方面的考量那這一部分的影響評估其實在當時在處理衛廣法的條文的時候已經有一定的程度的一些投入"},{"start":10809.234,"end":10838.073,"text":"主委我想本席我們也認為我們任何的一個法案修正都必須建立在確保新聞自由跟國土這個韌性的基礎上面不能去犧牲我們台灣民主最珍貴的一個輿論的一個淨土那這第二個部分我想還是要請主委帶主委來幫忙雖然你們的任期到七月底結束那剛剛我看你幾個委員在討論這個事情主委如果七月底之後真的都沒有補人NCC會不會關門大吉"},{"start":10839.114,"end":10857.795,"text":"我們不希望這種情況發生但是到四月底提名的還有八天我們相信行政院應該會處理我們相信各界業界也好大家都不希望這種情況發生我們希望這種情況我認為這種情況應該不會發生"},{"start":10859.912,"end":10881.962,"text":"那另外我想我在委員會也多次有請主委幫忙針對這個高抗災基地台的一個設置那前陣子我想買包我們蘇衛部的林部長也有給我們很正面的一個回應那但是我們的很多的鄉鎮公所也有提包了一些地點那但是我們現在服務處這邊也接到很多鄉鎮的陳情對我們一般基地台的建置還有一些安全的一些疑慮"},{"start":10882.722,"end":10909.793,"text":"那甚至會有一些抗爭的狀況那我想未來對於這個NCC要改善這個區域通信的部分當然這會面臨到兩難的一個困境我們又要通訊品質但是有些鄉親不願意設置就會造成有些地方通訊上的一個困境那主委NCC在跟電信業者對於這個機器台設置的部分是不是有針對這個選址的一個考量還有對於人體的部分是有做相關的一個評估"},{"start":10910.806,"end":10935.926,"text":"是的 有 其實在我們那一些執法也有規範比方說高中以下不能設然後離一般住宅一定公尺看到公寓大小一定公尺裡面也不能設這些都有在考量在內 也有規範這個從電信總局以來都已經這種規範那剛剛委員提到重點是因為機台沒有程度是個閒物設施所以我們也提倡鼓勵業者說要使用公家機關的一些基站提供土地"},{"start":10936.506,"end":10956.173,"text":"提供建物來處理那這一塊我們都持續努力目前有800多處的是公家機關提供的地點那針對委員關心的這屏東地區那謝謝委員在之前有提出這個今年2月有提出這個屏東縣有9個鄉鎮還有19個地方的醫學需求我們也找業者來去現場去"},{"start":10958.334,"end":10985.405,"text":"去勘查然後後來也考量既有的地台的調整方向功率方向功率或天線角度之後目前大概今年度還會再增建七個七個基站大概就是霧台一個 佳東一個 獅子鄉一個 仿山一個那林彬會有三個這樣子好 謝謝主委我想這個要加快速度最好能夠在汛期之前能夠把它完成好 主委請回謝謝那我們有請我們蘇衛部林部長"},{"start":10992.881,"end":11019.788,"text":"委員好 部長去年11月我們有報導這個中國有個高德地圖部長知道這個訊息嗎我知道那您自己本身認為這個甚至國台辦已經把這個什麼我們這個能夠精準精算到台灣紅綠燈的描述跟測到一個資訊表示這個對我們這個整個國人的行蹤居住地甚至社交的一個軌跡有嚴密的監控我想部長對這個有什麼看法"},{"start":11020.83,"end":11042.887,"text":"這件事情我們非常的關注所以我們有去做一些那個分析跟了解那目前我們知道的狀況是說高德地圖裡面的關於台灣的地圖資料不是他們自己收集不是他們自己建的他們是跟荷蘭一家叫做Heart Technology這家公司去購買的資訊進來然後再來是他們紅玉燈描述的這個"},{"start":11044.488,"end":11070.84,"text":"估計的這個功能它並不是串接台灣交通部或者地方政府的資料庫而是它利用它的使用者的那個在紅綠燈前面等待的狀況它去推估的所以它這個功能它當然是有在宣傳宣傳說很厲害事實上只有說在那種交通比較繁忙的那個紅綠燈入口而且有比較多使用那個高德地圖的這個狀況下它才有辦法推估"},{"start":11072.101,"end":11084.389,"text":"但是我們覺得說最嚴重的事情是什麼就是說依照中國的國家情報法的規定就是說中國境內的組織跟人民都有責任必須支持還有配合"},{"start":11088.351,"end":11105.527,"text":"中國政府的情報工作也就是說這個所有民眾這個上傳的個資都可能會有一天中國政府就是突然講說我要這個資料然後他就直接調取了不像說我們台灣我們個資保護法等等所以我們就速發部現在那個資安署已經在針對這個APP進行那個檢測一旦"},{"start":11109.03,"end":11122.314,"text":"確認說有這些狀況的話我們會第一個我們會那個就是要求所有的公部門就是不能使用高的地圖然後我們也會勸導民眾盡量避免使用高的地圖因為這個資安風險非常的大"},{"start":11124.235,"end":11153.627,"text":"部長那你們有沒有掌握到針對這個APP的部分是不是可以回傳到中國境內的伺服器受益資料目前來瞭解是他這個很多的個資都會傳回中國大陸所以我想包含我們這個總統府還有國安部相關一些我們關鍵的基礎設施聽起來他們都好像有所掌握了甚至透過一些吸收我們一些台灣人作為一些情資收集的一些管道那未來你們有沒有跟陸委會跟國安單位研究怎麼樣嚇阻這樣的一個情況"},{"start":11155.768,"end":11183.659,"text":"我們有跟陸委會跟國安單位我們都有在討論這件事情那目前的高德地圖它的主要的使用者應該是往來台灣跟中國的這些台商那目前使用的人數還不是很多那我們現在是希望說用那個第一個是用勸導還有其他的一些方式就是降低它的使用量但是我們認為說還不需要去做那個直接的封阻那因為"},{"start":11184.679,"end":11199.208,"text":"直接的公主有時候我知道最後還是要提醒就是我們未來的這個數位的防衛不應該有這個漏洞是應該再跟外部委員來強化是這應該要積極的努力是好謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝我們許副委員的發言也謝謝部長那接下來我們請邱若驊委員發言好謝謝詹委主席有請NCC陳代理主委"},{"start":11213.922,"end":11214.463,"text":"好 我們請陳主委"},{"start":11222.723,"end":11251.085,"text":"主委早 主委好主委先和您討論OTT目前OTT串流服務在台灣已具相當的規模了那它的商業模式也從過去單純訂閱現在已經逐步走向多元化那它也正在快速發展中那今天要請教主委相關的風險管理然後還有也跟防範詐騙有關那我們先看到OTT它的平台掌握用戶的帳號還有付款資訊還有使用資料那它以帳號為核心像是使用者的E-mail"},{"start":11251.345,"end":11267.44,"text":"密碼還有付款資訊那常見的狀況是有帳號外流還有盜用共享濫用黑市帳號等這是相關的問題嗎那現在已經發生有假帳號共享還有假訂閱優惠盜用帳號轉賣那想要請教主委要如何來管理"},{"start":11268.141,"end":11274.33,"text":"是跟我們報告其實ODT的部分我們在111年其實110年5月25期之後通過一個草案對外公佈當時的立法的"},{"start":11283.263,"end":11309.247,"text":"方向大概是說改為行為管制然後當時也有公告說達到一定規模的話必須要來登記然後來可以特別義務那但是方向上還是抓大放小的層級化的一些義務但是當時對社會各界包括業者包括是您講的是當時的OTD轉發嗎那我這邊請教主委您認為它是什麼樣的服務型態我們當時是想要管的那現在它是什麼樣的服務型態呢"},{"start":11309.907,"end":11335.601,"text":"他還是架構在internet上頭的一些這個主要是以PG都是專業型的一些內容產出的一些東西所以他算是類電信嗎對沒錯他算是類電信嗎因為他跟電信服務一樣他提供通訊的傳輸還有傳送訊號那可是他在法律上明確又是不一樣的嗎跟OTD目前他不能被歸在電信管理法沒有錯吧"},{"start":11337.083,"end":11344.177,"text":"國內的法制是這樣但國外有些南韓國家其實他是有些是用電信來的那這邊請主委說明目前針對治安的問題有沒有最低標準"},{"start":11345.936,"end":11371.381,"text":"治安部分嗎對 治安的部分治安部分 治安社會 相關治安總局官但是OTT的部分我們會我們近期會其他的營運的管理部分我們會提出一個軟法的指引來出因為它現在是不受電信監理可是它有類似電信的使用者的規範還有影響它影響層面非常廣那現在因為它也確實它用戶規模很大它也涉及帳號還有資料那它也會影響公共利益"},{"start":11371.841,"end":11399.654,"text":"所以我想要請教主委目前我剛剛有請教我們有沒有明確的保護法像這都有可能造成各自外線還要衍生詐騙的問題那要如何來管誰來管跟委員報告即便他現在沒有一個完整一個compact的一個作用法但是其他網路上的各個行為之對應的相關主管機關比方說剛剛委員提到了他消保問題之消保法其實一樣可以處理他的各自假設出了一些問題一樣可以處理"},{"start":11401.355,"end":11428.895,"text":"現前一些個案部分其實就有個資法的一些適用我們MGC這邊當時也有直接去處理所以目前資安的風險是可以由個資法來做管管嗎個資部分其實是有個資法的規範那對沒錯那我剛剛也提到因為它目前平台正在快速的變化中那像是Netflix還有HBO Plus它目前也導向也有導入廣告那面對這樣廣告的風險因為它也會存在著它過去是純訂閱那現在它有廣告加上訂閱"},{"start":11429.716,"end":11437.153,"text":"那很可能會有第三方的廣告出現在這個平台上面那其中的它的內容還有它的導流風險誰來做管理"},{"start":11438.973,"end":11462.327,"text":"如果他廣告涉及到一些跟詐騙有關其實現有有一些打造條例其實也有相關的處理那如果涉及到其他的一些這個虛偽不實如果看他涉及到的情況假設他涉及到一些虛偽不實或有相關的一些刑法也好或是其他的一些"},{"start":11462.907,"end":11474.935,"text":"其他個別的法律都會有一個使用它差別只是說它完整管理它主要管理它營運的這個作用反應所以你剛剛有提到就是ATD專法你們目前ATD專法的進度到哪裡了"},{"start":11475.834,"end":11500.97,"text":"因為我們114年提出過草案當時社會沒有共識所以還是停在草案階段那後來因為NCC委員會沒辦法組成所以現在我們有持續在更新那你們是怎麼樣去管理跟約束業者的基本上就是說我們目前的最後一版本目前手上的那個最新版的這個草案是說是抓大放小 層級化管理達到一定的規模我們會納管"},{"start":11502.031,"end":11524.072,"text":"只是當時在遵循各界意見的時候包括本國業者跟國外業者他們的看法會比較會有一些對立那我們也持續在遵循各界意見所以目前只有草案我們希望可以有更完整的包括平台他必須要負責然後也包含風險管理還有他內容的治理還有因為他必須要對他的平台透明度也要完整的"},{"start":11524.752,"end":11542.103,"text":"對 我很講到重點所以我們目前雖然印法作用法目前沒有辦法處理但是我們用軟法指引我們都會推出 OOTD 的相關的指引那 OOTD 剛剛我們提到的重點透明度的部分不管他是跟客戶民眾的一些申訴救濟透明度這個指引我們在去年已經公佈了"},{"start":11543.504,"end":11560.962,"text":"所以也希望NCC不只是要求業者要自律啦因為當時候的討論111年討論可是到現在他現在已經有廣告他上面已經有廣告了嘛那當時是沒有的嘛所以這個整個整個平台跟過去是不一樣的那這邊也請NCC多加留意我們會與時俱進"},{"start":11561.522,"end":11576.935,"text":"好 謝謝主委 那再來我也有 本席也有結果呈現民眾反映目前國內像是165詐騙還是1925安心專線等公益服務會因為業者不同的關係存在不同的收費門檻然後還有語音提示的差異那NCT這邊有沒有掌握到 有沒有進行討論"},{"start":11577.455,"end":11603.484,"text":"有其實前幾天這個媒體也有披露他重點就是說目前1651955等等那目前相關機關大概是借借中華電信部分那其他非中華電信的電信業者他必須要去轉借到中華電信那邊去那會有一些接續費的問題那目前因為其他比方說165好了這個遠程台客大他本身也要那這邊本身想要問的是所以你們這邊有沒有召集三大電信業者去討論的呢"},{"start":11604.764,"end":11632.377,"text":"我們平台住友軍找業者但是相對的做過165的是內政部你們有找業者什麼時候找業者的應該是這禮拜跟上禮拜有在處理然後方向上其實大概是我請這個相關部會也是這禮拜還是上個禮拜因為我這邊了解到目前是還在研議中嘛衛福部然後還有內政部那我這邊想要了解為什麼不是NCC去主動的去找這些業者然後跟其他部會一起共同來討論看能不能制定一個統一的標準"},{"start":11633.277,"end":11661.156,"text":"跟委員報告這個新聞貸處理的階段我們同仁其實就有跟業者來非正式的去了解溝通那後續會朝向什麼樣的收費呢後續朝向是說相關部會衛福部也好啊我們是指三大業者他們會怎麼樣來去做收費像針對這樣子的公益短馬報告委員那個主要是因為主要這兩個那個特別號碼的主政機關包含內政部警政署的165那"},{"start":11663.052,"end":11680.754,"text":"通常這種東西如果需要供應的話其實三大業者在過去其實以165專線來講它民國94年就配合警政署它第一個它有三大業者有做客服端所以我們現在確實看到它的那個收費標準還是有存在落差嘛那三大電信它的"},{"start":11682.657,"end":11710.145,"text":"他的營收都是破千億所以對社會觀感來說我們是希望可以朝向就是有一個標準的收費門檻或是朝向能不能就是都是免費他們主要那都是免費部分可能因為林郡縣委員辦公室也曾經找討論這個問題那內政部警政署說他同意配合編列預算來支應這部分因為既然你們已經有召開過會議了嗎那也在提供本席辦公室你們的會議記錄我們提供書目資料給委員"},{"start":11711.345,"end":11732.746,"text":"OK 好 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝邱若驊委員的發言下一位登記質詢發言的委員黃建豪 趙偉請黃建豪委員"},{"start":11739.52,"end":11743.714,"text":"好 謝謝主席 主席我們先請數位部林部長請速發部林部長"},{"start":11754.169,"end":11781.627,"text":"部長早部長我想一開始先討論一下我們剛剛那個臨時提案的部分其實先問一下就是數位部認不認同之前當然剛剛在提案裡面有討論到這個是當年國發發了篇文章介紹各國政府在探討政府部門經營這個粉絲專業這種像社群平台的時候有幾個指標一個是基本資料社群廣度社群互動社群關係跟貼文影音等等這五個構面這樣子的一個概念你們書發部現在認不認同這樣子的一個分類"},{"start":11785.67,"end":11807.648,"text":"是因為這個是基本上是認同的OK是今天會提出來就是因為其實我覺得很多你們應該也有注意到很多民眾也講這件事情就是說其實政府的資訊政府各個各個單位各機關大家都有或是被要求要去有臉書的時候設立臉書有IG的時候設立IG有IG的時候設立IG然後有YOUTUBE的時候設立YOUTUBE"},{"start":11808.248,"end":11824.973,"text":"是所以每個單位至少可能一個最多可能四個到五個社群平台是它的資訊是非常的碎片化是所以對民眾的困擾是說我要找相關資料的時候我可能我不一定能夠馬上找到我要的資訊那對數位部的期待是說你們有沒有機會去解決這個問題因為其實我們"},{"start":11826.998,"end":11843.157,"text":"進來的公務人員大家經過高考普考進來之後特考進來之後他的本職專長理論上他應該是專注在所謂行政業務上面在各項法令解釋上面所以現在變成是各單位為了去應付說我要有這個社群媒體我要去要求我各單位"},{"start":11844.238,"end":11859.145,"text":"好一點的可能部裡面一個或是一個團隊那可憐一點的可能一個科一個處裡面一定要一個所謂的新進的人員去擔任所謂數位小編去擔任這個小編的工作就他跟他本來的這個工作的職能是有一定程度的落差那"},{"start":11859.565,"end":11885.379,"text":"更有錢的當然外包嘛去找行銷公司去處理等等那我問說其實數位部有沒有機會去做一個相關的整合把先把盤點一下各單位到底目前有多少的那種所謂的殭屍型的賬號或是沒有沒有根本沒有在互動的或他的他的這個點閱率非常低的這種做一個盤點包含去去做去做去做這樣的整合之後把維護的成本跟人力更集中去做管理你們願意做這個你們可以做"},{"start":11886.42,"end":11901.087,"text":"可以做這件事情嗎謝謝委員提醒我們會我們應該可以做這件事情那也跟委員報告事實上通常因為我是來自於產業界通常產業界會有一些退場機制那就是有一些那個不好的產品或者是不好的那個"},{"start":11902.187,"end":11928.822,"text":"推展狀況不好的網頁都會退場那當然在行政我們在政府部門裡面這個機制就是說會有一些政治上的考量但是我也是認為說應該就像委員所講的有些其實已經關注程度不是那麼高什麼應該有一種就是退場的機制這樣子的話整個環境會比較健全而且對於我們政府單位的公務人員來講他的負擔也不會這麼重"},{"start":11929.702,"end":11952.241,"text":"好 謝謝部長 我希望大家對數位部的期待 當年你們成立的時候當然大家對你們有不同的想像 但是至少這個你們作為這個政府機關 這個政府龐大組織管理數位的這部分應該是大家共同的期待所以我們希望說這部分還是由你們來整合啦 好不好是 謝謝部長留著 繼續我們請那個NCC的陳代理主委一起過來討論這個事情喔"},{"start":11954.588,"end":11976.155,"text":"我想我們今天這個提出的修法幫電信管理法他們討論到這個衛星發展的問題預算或說各項的這個組織組織單位到底我國這種衛星通訊這個產業發展到底是NCC管呢還是數位部管呢還是太空中心管還是其他單位在管到底誰在管你們兩位可以"},{"start":11978.507,"end":11996.839,"text":"NCC管制電信事業是提供一般民眾電信服務的衛星業者至於國內衛星的產業發展 比如說它的供應鏈或發射器材或相關的一些東西不在NCC的資產範圍內"},{"start":12000.69,"end":12025.504,"text":"我想委員主要的疑問應該是在於產業推動產業推動分幾個部分第一個就是說台灣事實上在國際的衛星產業鏈裡面佔有非常重要地位很多的產業鏈都在台灣這個部分因為只是提供零組件還有這些component這個是經濟部在管的發展自己的衛星系統是由國科會的TASA"},{"start":12026.144,"end":12040.122,"text":"就是太空中心那邊主管的但是韌性在使用上面等於說速發部這邊負責的主要是要透過使用這些產品來加強台灣的韌性其實是這樣你可以看一下我們先"},{"start":12041.323,"end":12067.162,"text":"不管我們看旁邊兩個日本跟韓國日本當然他們自己是由首相親自擔任宇宙開發戰略本部的部長去做相關的整合工作那韓國呢是開個CASA宇宙航空廳把過去不同的單位做一個整合因為韓國其實跟我們很像韓國以前當然也是分散在各部會裡面有像有一個像NCC的單位有一個像說服單位那現在把它整合起來成為同一個單位那未來我國的這個衛星所謂的衛星發展不管是要"},{"start":12067.862,"end":12088.988,"text":"先待會討論修法的問題但是在這個發展衛星發展的過程裡面有沒有可能做一個整合的一個部會出來還是有一個主責單位因為現在就像剛剛部長所回應的嘛包含主委提到了嘛現在等於這件事情就衛星產業或是所謂太空產業這個事情它事實上在各單位裡面是那包含說預算的部分分配"},{"start":12091.155,"end":12116.101,"text":"有研發有應驗我們監理補助的部分可以跟TASA申請像數化部也可以申請經濟部也可以申請產業升級那管理的時候又是NCC在管理然後再來是驗證的時候TASA要求的是活動安全然後數化部要求的是數位認証跟治安NCC要求的是電磁干擾跟通訊品質所以這個產業在發展的過程裡面他要去驗證他要去申請他跑行政流程的時候他必須跟各單位"},{"start":12116.781,"end":12134.273,"text":"去討論去磨合然後這個事情會造成什麼結果這個事情當然造成我們產業的發展一定會比別人慢一點點吧因為我要先比如說我可能先看數位部先看ACC的電信管理法我符不符合電信管理法我符合之後來跟數位部討論數位部討論OK之後去找經濟部討論"},{"start":12136.835,"end":12147.337,"text":"所以在整個流程裡面我們的這個產業就會比別人落後一點所以說在這個整合的工作上面有沒有機會未來不管是數位部或NCC到底誰可以做一個主管的機關"},{"start":12148.83,"end":12169.784,"text":"跟委員報告了解委員所關切的這個事情但是我們也必須說因為台灣的產業的特性就是做水平的分工全世界只有少數應該就只有一家就是STARLINK它自己發展衛星而且自己發射衛星其他的大部分的公司像說"},{"start":12170.905,"end":12195.417,"text":"Amazon Leo它在發射衛星的時候也是找那個SpaceX就是那個STARLINK的母公司去發射的那在台灣的話這個分工會非常的細譬如說一座那個印刷電路板的做那個module的那基本上台灣大概都是在做這種比較是分工的這個狀況那台灣自己到目前為止並沒有那個專業的衛星發射的公司"},{"start":12196.857,"end":12210.986,"text":"確實就是說這就是我剛剛提到因為我今天如果假設今天有人想要做今天如果Elon Musk如果在台灣他搞不好也做不出Starlink啦是我們講從預算來看這個現象就是說今天數位部你也編了3878萬要進行這個國際衛星服務商鑰羅地的這個先期研究"},{"start":12215.729,"end":12241.829,"text":"那NCC呢也編了830萬說要做這個衛星通訊新網路形態的監理政策就是說不管是NCC也好 SWIFT也好大家都希望說去研究怎麼樣讓這些所謂的國際上的這個衛星能夠落地但實際上發生的就是大家都編了預算也都希望做這個事情但實務上發生的就是實務上就是現階段大家要用所謂的衛星呢他必須透過中華電信然後現在也只有Wi-Fi可以正常來使用"},{"start":12242.529,"end":12265.441,"text":"它沒有辦法像我們剛剛包含說其他委員包含軍線委員和其他委員展示的你去日本或去國外你去Costco你去路邊的商店你就可以直接買到衛星接收設備它可以自己來使用就是台灣什麼時候今天我們提這個所謂電信管理法的修法我們的終極目標或它的期待就是希望說回到電信管理法本身電信管理法第一條你本身就是要鼓勵說"},{"start":12267.223,"end":12290.92,"text":"這個更開放多元的通訊更多的這個競爭的機制讓這個通訊能夠更加的自由可是回到我們今天要所謂修的電信管理法第36條本身就是因為它有很多的限制導致這件事情不會發生我想問一下主委到底現在NC的態度因為你剛剛在回覆其他委員的時候一直跟我 我一直聽我在那邊一直提到一件事情是說你覺得現在不修法我們也可以做到"},{"start":12291.801,"end":12309.7,"text":"修法後本來期待的結果所以沒有修法的必要性目前是不是這個這樣子的政策的發展就是現行的條文36條不修正其實葉子願意來的話其實都不是問題因為其他one web都已經落地了那從"},{"start":12313.084,"end":12330.322,"text":"我們講的個案上的那家公司他雖然在過去數次對外表示說是我們的法規造成他的障礙但是我們在跟美方正式官方的討論像這次討論在ART的時候其實美方沒有這個需求這次公務員報告是確定的"},{"start":12333.072,"end":12356.039,"text":"主委有時候我覺得我們對話的時候要同一個頻率啦美方不一定有這個需求當然他市場很大他不一定要我這個市場我說美方沒有對台灣反映說你台灣這方面的法規有調適的需求來我們來問一下請問一下數位部數位部部長如果今天你去跟Stalin談他現在是如果他如果他如果今天Elobox如果突然突然認為說他想要進台灣市場他就可以進來了嗎"},{"start":12357.337,"end":12381.257,"text":"事實上這個事情是這個答案是部分因為照理說他只要雙看他要不要讓步如果讓步依照現有的法規他那個股權不要超過50%的話他就可以進來可是他們就是很堅持就是說他們希望佔多數的股權那事實上之前我們台灣政府跟那個STAR LINK談判就卡在這個地方所以我們現在就是我們"},{"start":12382.157,"end":12400.691,"text":"現在也去詢問說STARLINK你到底如果說我們那個法律那個就是可以討論的話可以談的話你有沒有興趣結果那個STARLINK現在給我們的答案事實上是那個也算是蠻特別的他就說因為台灣的那個4G跟5G的人口覆蓋率已經超過99%這上次我們討論過那其他委員也跟你講過這個相關數據了"},{"start":12404.474,"end":12429.043,"text":"是但在你們的報告裡面有提到說包含日本韓國荷蘭菲律賓越南也都是他們也都有相關的限制但他們同時已經開放跟可以使用了是那到底其實核心就是說那如果別的國家他們能夠做到在相關法令限制也符合他們的條件他們也有國安問題你說日本沒有國安問題嗎他們當然也有國安問題大家這麼近所以說在這個限制同樣的情境之下他們到底怎麼去做到開放讓民眾"},{"start":12430.143,"end":12448.815,"text":"一般民眾他想用的時候他可以這個自由的選擇他需要的他一樣當然可以選擇local可以選擇本地電信沒問題但他如果今天他比如說住在偏鄉或他今天出國他要出外他能夠找他可以自己去買到這個設備那在家裡可以使用或是出國可以使用這樣子的情境在台灣什麼時候才會發生"},{"start":12449.375,"end":12465.138,"text":"所以這邊跟趙偉補充就是就以韓國好了韓國他能夠落地其實都是出籌碼交換或者前提的一些確保韓國用什麼來交換FTA日本用什麼交換"},{"start":12466.479,"end":12490.828,"text":"他在日本有落地Gateway歐洲國家外資全部開掉用什麼來交換用GDPR確保下的一些Gateway是當地落地以上簡單補充因為Gateway跟本國業者參與其實是互為這個互補的可以讓這個國安的一些國安的確保還有通訊監察治安的部分可以達到實打實的一些掌握"},{"start":12491.348,"end":12506.345,"text":"好 主委這個部分我們希望說我們修法我們努力往這個方向來推動啦但是行政上面你們要怎麼去談判或說你們覺得需要什麼條件我覺得在後續修法的過程裡面我們希望能夠好好的來討論終極的目標說這最後的一個結果我們還是希望說台灣的這個"},{"start":12510.677,"end":12528.985,"text":"通訊市場台灣的這個通訊自由或通訊品質能夠做到至少像國外這樣但是看到我可以自由的交易而不是說現在說到很多法規限制導致沒辦法使用這是我們提這個修法最初的這個初衷希望大家能夠支持以上好不好謝謝謝謝張偉謝謝張偉的支持謝謝好謝謝黃建豪張偉"},{"start":12544.923,"end":12546.764,"text":"好 接下來請耿如君委員發言好"},{"start":12564.673,"end":12577.991,"text":"好 謝謝主席今天安排電信管理法第36條的詢問我們一起來關心台灣的國家通訊網路韌性的問題首先我們有請這個NCC的陳代理主委好 我們請陳代理主委"},{"start":12585.393,"end":12608.288,"text":"本席先前曾在上個會期總質詢的時候關心行政院所屬的各個部會對於通訊任性的立場不一致的問題直到目前為止NCC主管的電信管理法第36條還是有您剛剛提到的限制設置使用電信資源的公共電信網路者董事長要由中華民國國籍設置使用電信資源的業者"},{"start":12609.088,"end":12623.782,"text":"外國人直接持股總數不得超過49%直接及間接持股總數不得超過60%因此很多的外國衛星公司無法直接向台灣提供服務我覺得我們文字要清楚"},{"start":12624.363,"end":12640.83,"text":"不要一下可以來八成公司的架構可能可以來然後我透過誰來怎麼樣怎麼樣繞兩圈繞三圈我覺得這個我們都不是這樣因為各國已經都做給我們看了我們是最需要網路的國家我想大家都非常的清楚"},{"start":12641.57,"end":12656.976,"text":"那即便這個速發布這個一直提到說強化國家認訊為政策目標數位認訊 通訊認訊但受限於這樣的一個法規其實台灣距離建構多元通訊網路真的還有很長的距離那我們今天"},{"start":12657.876,"end":12685.062,"text":"看見NCC審查報告我們看見一位英雄本席要感到非常欣慰為什麼呢因為感謝主委支持我們真正的通訊韌性的強化跟發展我們在法律修正案草擬的過程當中我們也不諱言有多次跟NCC的業務單位來進行溝通得到很多建議那NCC您在報告裡面就有提到如果要放寬電信管理法第36條設置使用電信資源之公眾電信網路者的董事長"},{"start":12686.222,"end":12701.675,"text":"國籍和外國人持股比例限制就放寬標準放寬範圍應具體明確這一點本席完全同意本席的修法版本本來就是要賦予主管機關專案核准的權限尊重專業嘛"},{"start":12702.876,"end":12727.455,"text":"如果NCC要以執法來明定董事長的國籍或外國人持股比例的放寬標準或放寬的範圍或者專案的條件本席表示支持那我們再次要謝謝主委在任內勇於承擔讓台灣的國家通信任性真的是要朝向正面積極那我也希望主委請回我這給您鼓勵因為您展現了這樣的一個方向"},{"start":12727.975,"end":12733.764,"text":"那我相信我們看得到出口那我們先請這個接下來請速發部林一進部長"},{"start":12742.472,"end":12759.721,"text":"委員好部長好本席聽了4月8號速發部的業務報告的質詢部長當時答覆我們黃建豪召委的質詢提到對速發部對政府來說台灣有越多衛星通訊的選擇越好是這非常的棒是那對於部長的立場本席相當認同"},{"start":12760.802,"end":12781.624,"text":"有越多越大範圍的通信越好你說4G 5G還是有3G收救的問題還是有偏鄉的問題還是有緊急狀況的問題我想本席很認同您的整體概念這其實也是本席和黃建豪召委共同提出個別提出電信管理法第36條修法的目的台灣位處真的很重要的戰略位置"},{"start":12782.245,"end":12803.436,"text":"沒有網路我們沒有辦法經營商業沒有網路無人機很可能在緊急狀況也沒有辦法操控我們沒有辦法理解前線的戰事維持國家的通訊人心真的至關重要我就要問部長正當現在Right this moment本席在質詢部長您的時候部長知道負責我們國家國際和國內通訊的25條海欄當中有幾條是斷線或部分斷線的狀態嗎Right this moment"},{"start":12808.678,"end":12828.301,"text":"網友都很關心你應該要記在心中吧我沒有連線我那個腦子沒有連那個internet所以這個可能要查APP我們是不是請那個任信司司長好 那任信司司長趕快回答25條裡面現在有哪幾條有幾條斷線或部分斷線報委員這應該每天每分鐘都要關心的嘛編那麼多預算來 多少"},{"start":12828.761,"end":12849.954,"text":"基本上國際海嵐總共是15條國內海嵐是10條所以跟你們報告那昨天我看到資料是7條海嵐現在有故障那其中一個故障的地方是很偏遠在馬來西亞那一端根本不是在台灣這一端但是我們還是把它統計出來沒關係嘛 斷網率多少%28%啦其中斷線最久的多少時間你知道嗎"},{"start":12851.215,"end":12870.909,"text":"包委員244天包委員我們平均在沒關係啦你不要說什麼我們海欄怎麼樣28%的海欄是有問題的然後你說有的很遠我們沒辦法處理沒關係任性很重要嘛國防部印製的小局書就講了大規模的網路癱瘓多數海欄遭破壞這非常危險"},{"start":12871.73,"end":12899.722,"text":"台灣在非戰時期我們就已經有28%的海瀾網路那如果緊急狀態不是更可怕嗎我想速發部主責的通訊人員不是要讓我們遇到這樣的狀況嗎跟委員說明一下那個的確這個我們非常關心但是所謂的那個28%有故障所謂故障並不是全段很多海瀾因為海瀾裡面每一條海瀾裡面都有很多條心不好意思部長我沒有提問啦你不用在這裡替海瀾決斷那怎麼樣半段90分段"},{"start":12900.882,"end":12921.69,"text":"99分段我們都不要派船那你們預算要不要再重新來討論一下我想不是文字遊戲好不好我想我們有共同的意識把台灣阻礙國際的衛星業者提供服務的法規限制拿掉讓台灣在通訊更多元更廣冒這有其必要性我是在找我們的共通性"},{"start":12922.871,"end":12948.868,"text":"非常同意謝謝委員理解我會給你時間就給你時間因為我這個時間很有限那部長本席真的要再次強調衛星通訊服務的市場本來就是一個雙向的選擇我們今天要先把法規的門打開我們不能說美國要叫我們修美國對我們法規有沒有意見我們怎麼可以叫美國對我們的法規有意見呢如果真的有這樣的會議提供資料但沒有關係我想我們是有共識的"},{"start":12949.608,"end":12967.371,"text":"提高國外衛星通訊服務來台的意願這一點本來就是我們的責任增加台灣衛星通訊選擇的多元性對於強化台灣的通訊韌性有正面積極的幫助尤其剛剛提到的一些廠商像STARLINK已經開始運行二代衛星"},{"start":12968.092,"end":12994.912,"text":"這是目前最先進的通訊網路裡面一定也很多台灣的晶片結果呢我們目前您提到的一些簽約的衛星服務商沒有辦法採用也還沒採用我們不應該也不能用法規來限制住國人使用最新衛星通訊科技的權利我們希望朝野共同支持啦我們剛剛也感謝非常多的委員也都共同跨黨派來支持所以也希望部長我相信我們一起來具體認識一起來往前可以嗎"},{"start":12995.672,"end":13019.555,"text":"非常感謝委員長接下來還有一個細節因為這個影響到民眾的權益加一點點時間就是說部長我要來跟你討論速發布的打詐業務本席FB帳號就在前幾天被詐騙集團仿造了一個1比1的帳號來進行詐騙假帳號一字不漏的轉貼我發布的文章極可亂真主動就發邀請給我的朋友還邀請他們加入"},{"start":13020.255,"end":13039.149,"text":"這個我啦 我啦 這個假的我啦所創立的LINE投資群組還先謝謝他一直支持我的法案耶他說 一起建立富裕的社會免費加入投資群組然後呢 我趕快高速的飛奔到一個地方叫做打炸通茶網 為什麼"},{"start":13040.31,"end":13056.847,"text":"我們也花了預算結果我有用手機認證才能投案對不對其實你知道我是誰結果完成通報程序以後啪一聲在0.1毫秒的情況之下運作非常順暢的跳出這是低風險的案件還強調會優先處理高風險案件"},{"start":13060.331,"end":13072.747,"text":"請中低風險案件要耐心等候每一分每一秒我的朋友都在收到這些詐騙訊息叫他要去加入部長本席當時非常確定自己遭到詐騙集團假設帳號結果訴發部的通報啊卻判定低風險案件請問訴發部"},{"start":13076.812,"end":13098.663,"text":"通報的標準是什麼跟委員解釋一下因為這個也是之前有那個立法委員要求我們就是說必須利用AI的技術進行出判有要求很好啊因為這個是AI進行出判那依照我們的系統就是說接下來就會應該跟那個委員的辦公室聯絡然後只要委員這邊那個確定以後那我們後續就可以馬上處理了"},{"start":13099.764,"end":13121.297,"text":"您回去聽一下你的直播啦我想黃仁勳被騙要打給黃仁勳葛如君被騙要打給葛如君我都已經報案者是本人我已經提供我的手機了我甚至已經知道你是我知道我是誰了我想這裡有精進的空間AI模型不要自己立刻亂用完全同意AI模型有精進的空間還告訴民眾詐騙案件是屬於"},{"start":13123.598,"end":13141.729,"text":"低風險沒有這個就是AI我人講的完全沒錯就是因為AI的模型的判斷一定會有一些誤差所以我們還是需要人工來判斷這一點是我們都同意的會做事的人找辦法不會做事的人找理由找理由就說AI有問題完全同意我想不是這樣不是我們現在耐心處理"},{"start":13142.629,"end":13161.923,"text":"那結果現在如果很多人都遇到這樣的問題持續的造成損失我的朋友說不定都加入這些群組啊只要委員趕快回覆說這個是真的是詐騙那這個就是我已經報案了我已經報了什麼叫做我回覆你仔細說清楚什麼叫做我回覆你這個APP還有額外回覆功能嗎"},{"start":13163.325,"end":13192.251,"text":"就是有人報案以後我們會跟那個當事人做確認嘛對不對那如果是這樣的話那會後我們再把那個委員再加入沒關係我先跟部長講啦沒有什麼回不回覆所以這個AI要提升好不好這個服務要提升本席被創立假帳號的案件因為向訴發部求助無效啦我沒有無效啦現在你再跟我求助我現在馬上就處理我是國會議員我可以在這裡向你求助"},{"start":13192.631,"end":13211.816,"text":"台灣千千百百萬個受到這個問題的人怎麼辦網站通報查詢網網站通報查詢網就被你弄到低風險不要再玩文字遊戲了每一分每一秒上三月份的詐騙金額是多少一個月詐騙金額是多少你有沒有刻在心裡嘛"},{"start":13214.724,"end":13239.071,"text":"有沒有刻在心裡49億台幣啊因為整個一點多隻獨角獸每一個月所以不要在這裡玩我們已經討論了將近兩年了對嘛 那有沒有改進有啊 當然有改進啊有改進 改出了一個功能叫做AID風險沒有關係 我再問請教部長你認為政府官網上是不是應該存在下列內容色情文字與圖片髒話"},{"start":13241.312,"end":13256.93,"text":"詐騙集團的LINE ID廣告文件文字詐騙集團廣告文字民眾被盜的身份證民眾的個資這些應不應該出現應不應該出現不應該出現是很遺憾喔部長我們從第一天來到這裡跟您講"},{"start":13258.374,"end":13273.366,"text":"網詐通查網要好好的請部長通查一下這是網詐通查網的圖片我不好意思唸出來你要不要唸出來網詐通查政府部門的官方網站這是不是掛在Moda的官網底下是不是"},{"start":13274.451,"end":13283.355,"text":"部長回答是不是跟委員報告一下網站通查網的網頁是不是不在資訊上也有別的委員本委員會的那個委員之前是還是不是這個是網站通報查詢網的網頁內容沒有錯啊對嘛所以你要不要"},{"start":13293.559,"end":13313.59,"text":"我們不要念字了啦 這個字有點小啦因為在這個會席有其他委員跟部門的問題就是說為什麼我們把這個訊息提醒民眾知道說有這個風險不堪入目的文字我真的不好意思念出來字有點小我這不念出來啦 大家看網路的直播啦"},{"start":13314.83,"end":13342.702,"text":"LINE ID詐騙集團LINE ID在剛剛網站上對還是不對我們就是告訴我們這個網頁的目的就是要告訴民眾這是不對的這是詐騙那幹嘛要秀出ID我們就要告訴人家說這個ID是有問題的啊不然呢那我剛剛已經問您了嘛那好啊那把詐騙集團的廣告文字全部放上來把廣告詐騙集團的資料好那各自呢各自呢"},{"start":13343.86,"end":13350.665,"text":"假冒民眾的身份證 各自所以不要 真的不要再這個我想我們是一模一樣"},{"start":13352.25,"end":13376.098,"text":"我還把他各自的人全部都在網站通查網該打蒙的圖片就要打蒙該去除的文字內容就去除我已經講了 您剛剛也講了我現在講的所有內容我都是一年前都提出過模糊處理很難嗎有沒有這個技術這需要AI嗎"},{"start":13377.213,"end":13390.55,"text":"不需要嘛所以沒關係啊維持網路安全的環境我們一起由速發部做起所以部長你剛剛也同委承諾打炸通茶網何時可以完成改善我們一直在改善"},{"start":13391.773,"end":13410.939,"text":"那你如果說要定一個時間改善那是不是那個時間之後我就不改善了嗎不是吧我是持續在改善啊我一直要往改善如果說定了一個期限反而變成說我那個期限之後我就要再持續改善您回憶一下您剛剛講的這句話是您給全國的師生做了最壞的示範你叫我交作業"},{"start":13412.399,"end":13434.048,"text":"那我現在如果教我告訴你我什麼時候教了我以後就不用教作業了嗎我完全原話喔所以不是我們不要玩文字遊戲我們都當過學生也當過老師所以什麼時候可以提出嘛什麼時候可以我還尊重您耶什麼時候可以提出改善我每個月都要提出改善如果要的話那我剛剛提出的問題您也說不應該存在的問題什麼時候會改善"},{"start":13440.677,"end":13454.856,"text":"我想委員你也是AI的專家AI一定有False Positive跟False Negative的問題我剛剛講的不雅的文字不雅的 不對的 爛ID有問題的圖片 色情的東西這個不用AI喔"},{"start":13455.917,"end":13482.481,"text":"對 但是我們這個量這麼大你知道我們委員我們每天接收到多少的量如果說每一件我們都是用人工去檢查的話那你這樣會累死我們的人而且會讓我們整個打詐的系統癱瘓掉所以我們為什麼要用AI就是為什麼要用自動化方式處理就是因為我們要避免我們的打詐的系統被人家癱瘓因為這個詐騙集團他們也知道這個事情事實上所有的犯罪都是會用這一招想辦法"},{"start":13482.861,"end":13497.408,"text":"部長 主席已經站起來了我們都是技術人爛ID可不可以用RACX來處理是對嘛圖片有不雅的 有人臉的我可不可以打懵這需要什麼很高強的AI嗎"},{"start":13499.434,"end":13518.544,"text":"好 葛委員我們好不好所以我想部長我們互相尊重我們也尊重我們也尊重昭偉好不好您現在沒有辦法答應時間我再給您最後一句話的回覆有沒有辦法三個月內半年我們剛剛提了三個月內我們一定會有一些改善很好是好 謝謝我們謝謝部長有一件事謝謝昭偉謝謝好 謝謝葛委員發言也謝謝部長接下來我們請楊瓊英委員發言"},{"start":13540.303,"end":13545.125,"text":"謝謝主席 楊協發言 邀請NCC好 請NCC陳代主委主委好我們114年的調查報告當中呢也就是說依賴家用電話的民眾已經降到2%那單純使用手機的手勢突破了5成達到了52.6那顯示市化功能正在快速"},{"start":13569.895,"end":13598.262,"text":"被這個行動通訊來取代那尤其到16歲到25歲的年輕族群完全不會去使用家用電話的比例已經高達74.8%26到35歲也達到了72.5%這代表什麼呢代表台灣通訊使用已經出現了明顯的世代落差那年輕人全面的這個手機化高齡者卻仍留在這個世化的一個時代"},{"start":13599.182,"end":13624.825,"text":"那在這樣子的一個情況之下呢我們又看到高齡者他還是依賴高度的依賴這個室內電話因為他也怕說這個手機沒電他也怕說收訊部這個不穩或者是緊急狀態的時候他沒有備月備緩的這個通訊那在這樣的一個情況之下呢我要請教主委室外電話持續在下降"},{"start":13625.365,"end":13642.51,"text":"那高齡者卻是高度的依賴的這個情況呢那政府也應當要照顧高齡的這個通訊需求所以我們針對於未來市化的網路跟公共通訊的資源你要怎麼樣去調和跟整合"},{"start":13645.552,"end":13662.383,"text":"社化是屬於過往部分過往其實本來是一個國家電信的最基礎最根基的然後其實在國安上過往本身也有行網沒有的好處行網其實打仗的時候又發生"},{"start":13663.624,"end":13689.205,"text":"對方發動電子戰 行網大概也掛掉 過往是有它的好處所以剛剛問人提到說 市化的使用年輕族群大概越來越少 這個是全世界趨勢是典範轉移 這個無可避免但是在照顧使用市化的既有的族群裡頭特別是等於中高年齡以上的部分那針對這部分我們從好幾方面來處理 第一個"},{"start":13689.986,"end":13717.842,"text":"如果一般在房價上那目前的市化的一些語音警示的部分國際的話都已經做了那未來這個不顯號部分中華電信已經在我們要求下下個月就會開始來推動主委你談到這裡我們就直接切入第二題的一個討論也就是在3月25號的時候NCC推動的隱藏號碼來電語音的一個警示中華電信他率先先進行來示範"},{"start":13719.483,"end":13736.249,"text":"那在預估下個月三大電信業者也會全面的來導入那市化的部分是安排在六月份的時候來跟進那你指示出我們這個中華電信失敗以來我們看到了成效"},{"start":13736.969,"end":13739.47,"text":"因為業者告訴我們說已經主動這個斷話4萬筆主動斷話4萬筆那對於長者的這個高風險族群尤其是長者最怕就聽到電話就被詐騙的那請教主委"},{"start":13753.718,"end":13775.516,"text":"高齡的是最依賴在事化的這個部分也是最容易被騙的這個族群那為什麼會擺在六月份是不是六月份會不會執行之呢因為現在這個詐騙的這個橫行到讓人民非常非常的恐懼跟恐慌尤其長者我們要怎麼樣好好保護他們"},{"start":13776.357,"end":13793.19,"text":"所以本校請教 既然中華電信它示範的是有效的那我們在試劃的部分到底什麼時候會真正的來落實呢好 跟委員報告這個試劃部分我們跟中華電信要求的結果他們是零二分一定會上路"},{"start":13793.99,"end":13815.865,"text":"一定會上路我個人也是希望我們可以好好的去宣導一下讓這些長者知道隱藏的電話他就是有危機了那麼我們又做了這樣的動作可以更圍堵這些詐騙集團這些詐騙的這個案件對不對對 所以這邊我們也非常謝謝中華電信配合"},{"start":13816.681,"end":13840.824,"text":"透過各方的管道趕快好好去推廣接下來本席要跟你我個人跟你討論的就是說AI生成影片那它的聲音它的圖片快速普及這些技術變化的非常的這個深化那所以因此在媒體使用AI素材的比例也持續的在升高"},{"start":13841.565,"end":13854.919,"text":"那目前外界所最擔心的是什麼呢是用了AI卻沒有揭露那導致觀眾不知道分辨不知如何分辨到底是哪個是真的畫面"},{"start":13856.124,"end":13882.78,"text":"哪些是深層的這個內容所以 安心心你在3月25號的時候有承諾以延益廣電媒體AI應用的指引 是不是啊是 各位報告這部分我們已經跟業者專家兩輪了 業者一輪了我們下禮拜就會找業者第二輪預計這個5月底前會收斂會來處理那剛剛我們提到第二個重點如果傳統的廣電媒體"},{"start":13884.201,"end":13910.272,"text":"使用這AI沒有標識造成民眾誤導的話其實過往華視就發生過我們也處罰他這個沒有事實查核沒有影響公共秩序罰他兩張50萬的處分兩張50萬的這個處分那所以你現在第一輪的一個討論是包含了查核機制揭露跟標識"},{"start":13913.627,"end":13935.572,"text":"但是如果僅此如此 那是屬於什麼 行政指導有沒有強制力 請教他的反應是在未廣法 住院法裡頭如果他是超越了違反事實查證的部分一樣構成未廣法或無廣法的一些違法構成要件 一樣會被裁罰"},{"start":13936.514,"end":13962.634,"text":"一樣會被參訪因為大家深怕如果只是一個行政指導沒有強制力的時候那會變成出現標示不一致它的規範寬鬆甚至導致在整個處理的過程當中它是模糊的一個狀態那反而會讓AI內容成為資訊戰跟假訊息的一個新破口對 我很講到重點就是說"},{"start":13964.576,"end":13979.094,"text":"虛擬報導他最大的重點是要要符合事實要事實查證這一塊他的影片來源不管是AI生成或非AI生成只要他成就了這個有違反事實查證的部分一樣會被裁罰"},{"start":13980.097,"end":14000.881,"text":"一樣會被裁罰所以我們也有一個建議那主委你來這個討論看看是不是規劃後續你納入這個憑鑒換照跟裁罰的這個依據那這樣子是不是他的強制力越輸入會更強其實我們的憑鑒換照本來就會考量他過往換照前的前一次憑鑒以來的裁罰紀錄這個也會被包進去"},{"start":14009.722,"end":14033.895,"text":"因為剛剛在討論的時候詐騙是現在全國人民非常的不安剛剛說到的數字今年度一月份觀光這個通報的被詐的就一萬多件他的資金啊顯性出來是70億以上每一個月都是雙位數而且都在增加我們相關部會都會持續來努力"},{"start":14034.415,"end":14050.563,"text":"所以這個部分一定要把關 非常的重要沒有問題 我們要緊急把關 謝謝委員好 謝謝我們楊瓊英委員的發言也感謝我們陳代理主委我們接下來請張宏祿委員張宏祿 張宏祿不在接下來請翁曉琳委員發言"},{"start":14059.509,"end":14066.499,"text":"謝謝主席 那麼我這邊請陳重樹代理主委好 我們請陳主委你好"},{"start":14072.698,"end":14097.458,"text":"是陳代理主委你好NCC委員會議其實從113年12月1號因為人數不足停擺到現在那麼根據你們去年年底所發布的資料到目前那個時候已經積壓了489件是需要委員會審議的案件我想請教到目前為止又增加了多少"},{"start":14099.042,"end":14114.418,"text":"這個被羈押的案件就是沒有辦法繼續審理的案件到目前為止已經累計了有多少件是跟我們報告614件就有614件了那大致上是什麼樣類型的案件呢最大宗是董金氏經理人變更223件然後換照案有154件"},{"start":14118.502,"end":14126.026,"text":"好那麼其實這些蠻重要的董監事的變更還有換照案如果說董監事媒體業者的董監事無法變更的話那變成這個也會影響到整個業者的運作對他的經營運作那針對這個問題的話就是還有換照案要也是那麼目前AC的做法基本上是都是發函叫業者"},{"start":14139.732,"end":14155.685,"text":"如果涉及到換照的話就是基於公共利益繼續撥出這是特殊時期的變通做法那針對董建市的變更案呢你們也是一樣嗎還是說就是准許他們自己先變更了沒有因為很多公司法登記需要主管機關同意之後他們才能變更"},{"start":14156.745,"end":14180.663,"text":"那所以變得像這樣一個情況之下的話其實NCC委員禁訴補齊是非常重要的一件事吧是沒錯那針對NCC的這個委員的這個補齊這件事情我不知道現在NCC包含您在內有沒有就是去函給行政院長或是不斷的提醒行政院長要趕快補提名因為"},{"start":14182.699,"end":14203.813,"text":"就是你們現在三位委員到7月31號就要任期屆滿那之後可能NCC就會出現完全沒有委員的狀況是變成一個空殼子跟我們報告其實我們都有透過相關管道比方說跟NCC的政委啊或者相關院長辦公室的一些重要幹部幕僚都有反映過依照NCC組織法第四條的規定其實只要是"},{"start":14211.53,"end":14238.031,"text":"NCC委員的出缺沒有達足的時候行政院長就應該在三個月內補足提名的這個是依法行政院長就應該要做的事情可是我們看到現在卓榮泰他就完全藐視法律然後該提名也不提名而且呢這個問題很嚴重就像剛剛講他涉及到媒體業者他的經營運作他董建是無法變更還有涉及到換照的問題所以目前的情況之下就是你們容許這些業者在"},{"start":14238.792,"end":14265.227,"text":"沒有得到正式合法執照那繼續營運嗎就是不得已的法律未定狀態下的大家要求取最大公義的一些方式所以你們現在還有進行相關處罰案件嗎有明確違法比方說酒類廣告不應該在不應該在開拍之前播出的話我們都照法覆您剛剛有講到這個之前曾經針對華視他的AI的影片因為可能沒有揭露訊息說你們處罰他50萬"},{"start":14267.304,"end":14292.875,"text":"有做成這個處分嗎那個是七個委員時代做的是七個委員時代所以是更早的時候做的不是現在這三個委員時代做的那麼本席是認為說這個希望NCC還是要趕快去催催卓榮泰他既然當行政院長他就必須有這個義務責任要去補足提名那麼這個前一段時間NCC才剛慶祝20週年的週年慶"},{"start":14297.077,"end":14305.744,"text":"我現在真的很擔心這NCC會不會就此消滅在卓榮泰的手上如果說沒有委員在即時補足的話那接下來我們的預算法案是要由誰來出面呢"},{"start":14315.525,"end":14343.151,"text":"這問題很嚴重的對不對在第一波的提名然後第二波的提名就算第一波提名是因為他們後來中間又撤回了嘛也錯了也很久第二波提名就算是不通過要趕快再提出第三波的這個名單我不知道現在行政院是都找不到適合的人嗎台灣的這個通訊傳播法律經濟人才記記這總統他是都找不到適合的人來擔任NCC委員嗎"},{"start":14344.67,"end":14372.117,"text":"我真的很擔心因為畢竟本席陳晶也是NCC委員我不希望看到NCC就此消滅或是說以後乾脆就把NCC又拆回到又走回20年前的回頭路以後部分的處事就移到速發部或是部分的處事就移到交通部是不是要回到過去的時代呢獨立機關它有它的存在價值當然人很重要你沒有人這個機關就無法運作"},{"start":14374.485,"end":14400.881,"text":"更何況我們剛剛講的他衍生很多的相關的這個NCC的發照處分等這些問題這也非常就是影響整個廣電媒體業者的權利勝據所以本席今天希望就是陳主委您回去之後還是盡速的趕快的最好是能夠面見卓榮泰告訴他這個問題的嚴重好 我盡可能努力好 以上謝謝"},{"start":14404.738,"end":14427.783,"text":"好謝謝翁小林委員的發言也謝謝陳主委接下來請葉元之委員發言好謝謝主席麻煩請那個NCC代理主委好我們請陳代理主委"},{"start":14432.495,"end":14452.814,"text":"葉委員好戴主委我是想要來瞭解一下NCC沒委員會怎樣剛剛你有提到沒有委員所以導致於很多家電視台或媒體沒辦法換照對不對是還有一些董事沒有辦法換人嗎對不對對還有一些相關那個立法執法也好 法律也好都沒辦法推出NCC的版本"},{"start":14453.274,"end":14472.779,"text":"沒辦法推出NCE版本因為你剛剛提到的像換照換照我是覺得還好啦沒換照也不會怎麼樣反正這些媒體假設他有違法的話比如說播出一些法律不允許的那你就罰他嘛對不對本席其實主張根本不用換照啦裁罰部分如果動不動就要換照的話"},{"start":14473.999,"end":14490.268,"text":"那就會出現你們之前隨便把一些批評政府的電台關掉的狀況沒換照還好啦反正他有違法你就罰他透過法律來約束然後董建市是屬於比較屬於公司治理有沒有一些是跟民生比較有關的"},{"start":14491.349,"end":14516.469,"text":"有關就比方說有線電視的頻道頻道的上下架變更因為車子要營運計畫營運計畫也是委員會保留事項也需要由委員會組成才能處理那個代理主我跟您請教一下因為我記得那個時候有在前一兩年前面一位主委被問到說如果NCC委員沒過半會怎樣他是講說iPhone 15沒辦法上市"},{"start":14517.31,"end":14545.642,"text":"但現在iPhone15不但上市了iPhone17都上市了各位報告那是七個委員時代最後要他們四個委員要畢業前就是要結束任期前把訂定一個授權的執法讓這個比較省著空間比較小的部分不是組織法九條二項六款裡頭的這個經營權的登上邊跟處分的部分給他授權來處理所以換句話說就是有一些是技術性的問題嗎"},{"start":14546.622,"end":14572.591,"text":"他不是說非怎麼樣啦就是可以解決的嘛但是那時候他為了恐嚇大家就說15沒有上市可是後來還是上市啦所以其實是有辦法解決啊可是他不去講那個辦法但他就跟你講說沒辦法上市所以國人會覺得NCC為什麼都在亂講話他明明就上市啦他講話的當下納稅執法授權辦法所以他有一些作為是可以讓他上市他不去講那個作為他就直接說無法上市結果後來上市就打臉NCC嘛"},{"start":14573.371,"end":14599.153,"text":"所以我覺得這也就是NCC為什麼你去看很多民調大家對NCC的滿意度都很低就是很多類似的原因累積起來的所以順為代理主委我覺得你們也有責任要捍衛你們自己機關的榮譽感就是不要讓一般民眾覺得說NCC好像有跟沒有好像沒什麼差別那我現在想要跟你請教現在委員的狀況有三種第一種是全部都有 滿了"},{"start":14600.234,"end":14614.449,"text":"然後有過半的這個當然就是什麼都可以運作嘛第二種情況是大概就像你們現在這樣只有三個沒過半所以有些事情你剛剛有提到是沒辦法做第三種最慘的情況很可能會發生因為包括您在內"},{"start":14615.87,"end":14630.323,"text":"好像任期也到七月就到期了嘛對 我們目前剩下的三位任期全部到今年七月全部到期然後呢 行政院長卓榮泰院長到現在還是吊兒啷噹的我看有其他委員問他說NC委員要不要提他說 我努力"},{"start":14631.184,"end":14651.081,"text":"他說我努力他不是說我確定可以他說我努力所以到時候提不出來他就說我努力不夠或是我努力也辦不到就是他連一個決心都沒有所以很有可能出現一個狀況是七月以後NC沒委員那請教一下七月以後NC沒委員和現在有三位委員差別在哪裡"},{"start":14651.681,"end":14680.248,"text":"差別在剛剛委員所提到這個當初有授權的部分那些很多很多比較相對於省酌空間比較小的一些裁員案都不能處理像是進口器材啊 設明器材啊 終端設備那些進口包括iPhone等等之類就是完全沒有委員的情況連剛剛講的那些比較吐息吐民眾的部分大概都都沒辦法處理就會痛了所以你看你看我們這個你有跟卓榮泰院長講這件事嗎"},{"start":14681.709,"end":14710.129,"text":"你有跟他講嗎他有沒有像我剛剛問你一樣問過你說有三位委員跟沒有委員的差別他有問過你這件事嗎任何本人是沒有沒有你看他不在乎啊如果他在乎就會問了啊無論怎麼樣起碼提三個過來嘛對不對你提了三個起碼可以維持現在的運作啊然後連三個都沒有你如果過三個或過一個是不是就跟都沒有不一樣"},{"start":14711.919,"end":14722.336,"text":"0跟0.1還是有差別有差別嘛對不對所以他連1個都不提提1個還是有差也都不提我覺得等一下回去之後你是不是跟行政院講一下"},{"start":14723.41,"end":14741.702,"text":"就是說現在院長感覺你吊啷噹的但是七個有七個的運作方式三個有三個運作方式但都沒有的話連你剛剛講什麼無線攝頻這些都沒有辦法處理了嘛沒錯嘛是這影響很大是不是請他最起碼提個提一部分出來好不好你跟他講這個是嚴重性"},{"start":14742.583,"end":14765.14,"text":"你跟他講一下這個嚴重性啊 戴主委好不好 等一下結束之後就跟他講一下好 我盡可能好 然後再來問一下因為在去年NCC那時候有引發一個750之亂嘛那針對一些就是二類的射頻器材都說要繳750塊的規費那四月份發生事然後後來因為那個規定"},{"start":14768.112,"end":14779.281,"text":"那個委員會說要求改成核備改成審查所以就給他推翻了可是按照NCC的規劃其實你們去年四月的時候你們是想要停政一年而已啦"},{"start":14780.106,"end":14808.928,"text":"換句話說停政一年到現在一年已經過你們還有可能會做出這樣的事嗎絕對不會跟委員報告其實那個執法修因為大院這邊有做一些處理所以原來我們修的那個已經失效了就是等於說回到前一版就是沒有修的情況所以也不會再提了因為我看你們去年是說停政一年感覺上好像一年後你們還想要再越越遇事不會不會所以現在就是完全都不會完全都不會做這個事回到前一版"},{"start":14809.828,"end":14822.54,"text":"OK那剛剛我跟你講那個記者要跟院長講就說起碼要三個嘛或兩個一個也好你不能一個都沒有你要跟他講這個很重要有機會的話我來跟你們我們有機會你是歌員耶好 謝謝好 謝謝偉"},{"start":14826.229,"end":14841.401,"text":"好 謝謝葉遠之委員的發言 謝謝我們陳主委接下來請鍾嘉斌委員發言 周耀明不在接下來請林倩琦委員 林倩琦不在接下來請蘇清泉委員 蘇念泉蘇清泉不在請林楚瑩委員 林楚瑩不在 接下來請游浩委員發言謝謝早委 那有請NCC主委好 我們請陳主委"},{"start":14860.994,"end":14880.584,"text":"主委好那延續剛才院之委員以及萬美委員還有翁曉琳委員所提到那目前的話因為即將要在4月30號的話其實總統院長他就應該要提出這個人選名單那其實這個主委您有被徵詢過是不是就是後面會持續嗎"},{"start":14882.085,"end":14906.19,"text":"目前目前沒有沒有嘛那剛才其實葉元志委員有提到三位跟林其實在你剛才所回應的部分其實還是有所差別那其實本席也是一樣的立場跟建議其實還是要請主委能夠跟卓院長提一下那也希望說後兩週的部分如果有排相關的一個包括備詢的時候還可以說一下就是卓院長的一個回覆"},{"start":14906.55,"end":14927.301,"text":"因為其實畢竟這個時間上是有限必須要提名單那這個名單的部分也不能夠急救張甚至也因為這樣子用情熱式的方式 左院長提的名單如果他不是是一個社會各界可以接受的一個名單的話那其實再也當然還是必須要嚴格的來去看這些人選是不是正確的"},{"start":14928.081,"end":14950.97,"text":"那同樣的如果今天這些名單的人選他是在社會各界大家評估起來是覺得一個公正還有專業還有客觀合理的部分我相信其實在野黨也會有民眾他們的期待還有希望能夠通過嘛那最主要是看這個人選是不是適合啊所以我覺得其實今天在野的監督其實是代表著民意的監督"},{"start":14951.73,"end":14977.851,"text":"那我相信其實主委一樣可以跟左院長反映說其實我們也期待他提出的名單但是同樣的在這裡也要做出呼籲就是這個名單的人選啦他還其實還是要讓社會各界是可以接受因為在之前來講有些人選不被接受不管他的政治立場偏頗或者是包括他在許多的一個媒體或者是電視的話他有特定立場那所以說那時候是有這些問題"},{"start":14979.032,"end":14994.814,"text":"所以那時候採名單沒有過那所以重新再提的名單總是希望是亮眼同時是社會各界的話都可以接受因為也有許多的委員的提名是在野黨也是支持那所以說也請主委把這些話也帶給院長好不好是好沒問題OK好謝謝"},{"start":14995.535,"end":15011.625,"text":"那剛才我就接了我們建豪委員跟葛羅街委員提的這個提案那其實我們是都表達支持那同樣的在這個低軌衛星的部分那其實現在來講它的外資比例那它其實回頭來講是在一個主權的問題主權的比例"},{"start":15012.125,"end":15039.894,"text":"那在這個放寬之後還投資進來但是控制權的如何能夠掌握那這個部分我想請教一下主委因為其實低軌衛星的話它不僅是一般的電信服務它同時它是暫時的時候取代這個台藍的通訊命脈還齋實的是唯一可指揮鏈的一個基礎設施那像目前的這個比例上那要如何來確保這個關鍵時刻的話訊號一樣是能夠給台灣使用還有這個是政府決定嗎還是到時候會回到他們比例的董事會來決定"},{"start":15041.505,"end":15061.954,"text":"是 跟委員報告大概從幾個方面來講假設今天郵駕國外的第一國衛星在台灣落地那台灣發生比較特別的緊急時刻他衛星訊號假設他跟本國月子沒有合作他突然中斷發生類似之前烏克蘭的情況一樣的話"},{"start":15063.254,"end":15089.71,"text":"那種情況就變成說他在台灣落地本身就已經是要接受本國的一些相關作用法的規範他違反我們這個定性管理法會有一些相關的處罰的機制那如果他跟本國業者有合作那本國業者跟他必須要簽有私契約的關係比如說你的信號供應必須要不中斷或什麼之類他違反會有私契約上的一些責任問題"},{"start":15090.45,"end":15107.321,"text":"那對公部門對作用法會有一個處理那跟回到委員所講的如果特別時期那因為目前其他電信事業必須要遵必須要服有法遵事項什麼法遵事項動員就是相關動員緊急動員相關一些規範相關動員的時候其實就會有排這個priority就是"},{"start":15110.624,"end":15130.28,"text":"軍警指揮體系會優先使用那種層次的部分的流量的一些控管會在那邊處理那種情況之下也是一種法尊會做一個處理那同樣的就是也就剛才主委所提那因為如果說暫時不能用的通訊那就不是備援那就變成是換取了"},{"start":15130.66,"end":15154.776,"text":"那在目前國際間的話有些低軌衛星的一個服務它存在著實務上是限制軍事用途跟保留服務的種子權還有一系列的政策來調整它的服務區域那像剛才有所提到的除了這個罰款依照合約的這個部分那到底有沒有辦法確保還在暫時的時候這個低軌衛星的使用我們還能夠保有這個指揮權跟控制權"},{"start":15155.492,"end":15177.839,"text":"這些都是事前假設某一家已經在台灣落地落地前我們給他照給他平均使用序格的時候就要講好這個條件白紙黑字寫好甚至於做成付款等等之類的那這個部分除了白紙黑字寫好還除了罰款之外還有其他有拘束力的做法嗎拘束力做法就是對相關作用法的規範你違反東西"},{"start":15179.83,"end":15202.165,"text":"因為坦白講一件事就是他們這些科技的一個做衛星的這些大型的國際企業來講他們是不一定怕罰款他們有時候他們這種企業再去影響戰爭的這種控制的話其實是超乎一個國家的對這就是委員所講的這重點就任性而言他是絕對一等一大家毫無疑問他是任性最好"},{"start":15203.785,"end":15217.83,"text":"數據主權這個操控的這個就不完全是對等的這必須要一併考量那目前來講的話這個部分會朝向就是多元的方式來看這個外資的這個廠商或企業嗎"},{"start":15219.832,"end":15242.141,"text":"目前就是說已經來台灣落地的其實他都用現行的法令來進來台灣的那未來如果說要多元來發展甚至於說我跟委員報告就其他國家亞洲國家也好有些是外資完全拿掉的其實他背後都有一些籌碼或前提的籌碼的交換或前提的到位來確保比方說韓國韓國是用什麼來交換FTA"},{"start":15245.822,"end":15269.067,"text":"貿易FTA來交換他外資排掉日本用什麼交換就是他用他的那個在日本落地所以他樹立主權他可以實打實的掌控所以說我們也不希望我們是用發芽馬鈴薯來交換但是最主要的話是說那像這樣子相關的一個溝通跟協調的過程中就是軍方或國防部有沒有參與到低軌彗星如果開放外資的討論"},{"start":15271.117,"end":15297.017,"text":"相關的場合是有在討論那是外部會議是正式的會議嗎是沒錯是沒錯喔好沒關係我後面再追那最後還是回頭來講我們希望說像這樣子第一委會已經是涉及到不管是暫時的任性以及暫時的任性那希望他能夠嚴格被把關現在審查的時候不要留意刑事審查因為這種的話已經是有種接近於是國安的一個外包"},{"start":15297.657,"end":15321.957,"text":"那所以說在這個外包的過程中還如果外資的進入能夠像葛禄君委員所言是提升他的技術跟他的能量甚至提他的防衛韌性的話那當然我們一定是給予支持但是如果說控制權的話我們的國安命脈是掌握在其他的跨國企業身上的話那其實在這個部分我們都還是要嚴格把關那同樣的在NCC在審查的部分還是請主委這邊能夠確實能夠落實"},{"start":15323.638,"end":15345.53,"text":"相關的這些會議以及說在這個合約上的這個部分盡可能也可以讓民眾安心是沒問題所以我們建議說這個案子還是多多聽取多方利害關係人的意見讓大家有個共識說如果是一定要選擇就沒有100分沒有100分的情況下我們必須要做一個取捨的話也讓社會上有個共識OK好謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝尤浩偉的發言謝謝我們主委"},{"start":15353.424,"end":15374.779,"text":"接下來請蔡議委員發言 蔡議員蔡議委員不在登記諮詢委員均已發言完畢我們做以下決定報告及詢答完畢委員諮詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答覆部分請國家通訊傳播委員會以及速發部及相關機關盡速以書面答覆"},{"start":15377.089,"end":15401.946,"text":"針對本日會議討論事項一至三的個案我們並作以下決議均另定期繼續審查接下來與討論事項四預算解凍案無關的行政機關可以先離席現在我們處理討論事項四預算解凍案第三案我們先請議事人員宣讀"},{"start":15404.277,"end":15432.464,"text":"討論事項四處理一百一十四年度中央政府總預算附屬單位預算關於國家通訊傳播委員會主管預算凍結案計三案國家通訊傳播委員會函減送通訊傳播監督管理基金一至三一新增決議第四項服務費用之推展費預算凍結十分之一案二新增決議第五項服務費用之推展費預算凍結二分之一案三新增決議第八項網際網路傳播計畫向下媒體政策及業務宣導費"},{"start":15433.824,"end":15454.822,"text":"預算凍結20%案 宣讀完畢好 宣讀完畢個案 請問各位委員有沒有意見好 沒有意見 我們做一下決議討論事項四 個案均同意動之 我們提報院會本次會議結束 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救學就業處長池玉蘭"},{"start":1648.215,"end":1653.339,"text":"就醫保健處處長劉俊正事業管理處處長董少明"},{"start":1654.588,"end":1665.953,"text":"退出吉夫處處長羅馬可行政管理處處長詹光宇人事處處長陳家世政風處處長高伯陽會計處處長林耀元統計資訊處處長張志強法規會執行秘書陳靜茹台北農民總醫院院長陳威明"},{"start":1682.312,"end":1706.362,"text":"台中農民總醫院院長傅雲慶高雄農民總醫院院長陳金碎屏東農民醫院總醫院院長王蕙祥台北農民總醫院蘇澳分院院長熊孟平台北農民總醫院桃園分院院長彭佳勳台北農民總醫院新竹分院院長陳真基"},{"start":1709.824,"end":1720.012,"text":"台北榮民總醫院玉里分院院長胡宗明台中榮民總醫院埔里分院院長張仁義台中榮民總醫院嘉義分院院長陳振隆"},{"start":1722.216,"end":1739.246,"text":"高雄農民總議院台南部院院長鄭明芳執訓中心主任關永忠清淨農場廠長王仁柱福壽山農場廠長林齊輝武陵農場廠長陳順儒彰化農場廠長胡發濤台東農場廠長高國書農民工程股份有限公司青算人代表楊長正"},{"start":1751.214,"end":1757.36,"text":"農民農卷基金會秘書長劉協慶國防部資源規劃室能力資源處專委林靜芬國防部資源規劃室能力資源處中校林宥昌"},{"start":1766.448,"end":1792.863,"text":"國防部政治作戰局政治政戰綜合處中校宋憲宜國防部人事參謀次長是人事勤務處中校黃真榮行政院主計總署公務預算處專務委員陳淑萍行政院主計總署基金預算處科長謝明杰本日會議審查一五年度中央政府總預算"},{"start":1794.383,"end":1802.857,"text":"關於國軍退儲役官兵輔導委員會主管收支部分及負責單位預算兩項作業基金案請作詢答現在請閻主委上台報告謝謝"},{"start":1812.993,"end":1826.086,"text":"主席各位委員先進大家好陳鵬各位委員先進對本會各項施政工作的指導與支持謹置最崇高的敬意與謝誠大院審查通過的本會114年度稅務預算7億8825萬1000元"},{"start":1831.812,"end":1841.915,"text":"及税出预算1309亿5357元57万8千元含最佳预算执行率分别为109.92%以及97.38%"},{"start":1846.957,"end":1866.433,"text":"另外本會為落實政府賦予妥善照顧退出役官兵的政策設置國軍退出役官兵安置基金以及榮民醫療作業基金114年度依基金收支保管運用辦法及營運目標省政執行結果剩餘分別為16億5945萬3000人以及50億46038000人"},{"start":1874.52,"end":1897.654,"text":"本會一百一十五年度預算遵循行政院一百一十五年度施政方針通盤檢視現有施政計劃優先順序以及實施效益編程接續請本會會計處處長就一百一十五年度施政的重點主管預算編列情形向各位委員先進報告敬請指導與支持謝謝"},{"start":1905.782,"end":1922.673,"text":"主席 各位委員先進 大家好現僅就115年度施政重點預算編列情形栽爆以後115年度施政重點一 進進AI人才培育 產學產訓 接軌職場在職業訓練方面 持續優化教學設施 落實訓用合一"},{"start":1929.617,"end":1952.668,"text":"強化訓後及就業的銜接機制提升職場競爭力在就學輔導方面落實入學及就業後職國家產業人力資源二、跨域整合統籌資源多元服務全新照顧各地融合處作為社會支援服務平台積極鏈接社會團體獲得物資及善款"},{"start":1956.328,"end":1978.562,"text":"推動社會良善循環 進行倒載服務方式對具高風險對象主動協助山莊安心育老 遠距居家照顧系統三 深化國際退伍合作 強化互動 鞏固友誼本會持續深化與美國退伍軍人相關單位交流參與華府國殤日遊行 提升國際能見度"},{"start":1982.464,"end":1998.391,"text":"並邀請全球各榮光會代表環國參加榮民節慶祝活動凝聚榮巧向心四、全能整合精準照護健康高齡永續發展補助各級榮業辦理高齡醫學、社區醫療、公共衛生"},{"start":2004.008,"end":2028.423,"text":"及安寧療護等四項計畫配合長照3.0政策積極佈建長照資源運用人工智慧結合科技輔具建立依照整合之長照服務網絡使失能失智者都獲得妥適的照顧服務以提升照護效率落實賴總統健康台灣的願景五"},{"start":2029.781,"end":2056.408,"text":"智慧科技照顧健康、樂齡安老、品質提升本會積極推動家庭化、社會化、智能化三大目標漸進導入智慧科技概念透過數據分析、優化照護策略使農民入住農家能享受更好的生活品質六、何時發放退儲給予妥善照顧退後生活建立跨部會協調機制"},{"start":2058.444,"end":2071.952,"text":"即使辦理停發及預發手腳何時發放退儲給予推動檢證便民運用AI資訊科技強化線上服務修正法令擴大服務照顧政策三"},{"start":2073.817,"end":2093.707,"text":"一百一十五年度主管預算編列情形一稅入部分一百一十五年度編列七億兩百八十二萬三千元叫一百一十四年度簡列八千五百四十二萬八千元按收入來源分數如下一花款及賠償收入三百三十三萬一千元二"},{"start":2094.087,"end":2096.149,"text":"貴會收入3億5,063萬2千元3.財產收入1,080萬元4.其他收入3億3,806萬元2.稅數部分"},{"start":2109.912,"end":2125.438,"text":"一百一十五年度編列一千三百二十五億六千零七十一萬四千元較一百一十四年度增加十六億七百一十三萬六千元主要系增列退除一官兵退休幾戶七億四千七百五十六萬一千元"},{"start":2126.378,"end":2153.857,"text":"農民券健保補助四億兩千兩百九十七萬八千元安養機構造福源護理及儲供人員三億七百一十七萬一千元及提升私事照顧量能長照萬火園區中層計畫五千五百七十四萬元一 救血持續方面編列三千八百零九萬六千元包括一 辦理招商作業及救血輔導措施一百四十萬三千元二"},{"start":2154.932,"end":2157.493,"text":"職業訓練中心行政維持會1600萬3000元3.執運中心黃色整建工程1875萬元4.採購公務車194萬元2.服務照顧方面編列6億5742萬1000元"},{"start":2174.465,"end":2180.668,"text":"包括一 青藍農民子女就學及午餐補助等1260萬5千元二 志願服務組長及榮欣志工"},{"start":2186.618,"end":2214.838,"text":"一億五千一百五十一萬八千元三 急難救助及三節慰問三億兩千七百一十八萬七千元四 八二三及六一九未救養農民三節慰問等五千兩百九十四萬一千元四 辦理農民及新住民生活適應輔導強化海內外退伍軍人聯繫九千七百三十四萬元六 台灣公務車一千五百八十三萬元"},{"start":2216.761,"end":2226.248,"text":"三人員維持及行政業務方面編列38億2128000元包括一辦理各項輔導業務所需人員維持費34億6859萬元二基本行政作業費2億59677000元三汰換公務車195萬元四北勞系樹大樓及松柏新村整修工程編列9099萬1000元四"},{"start":2246.997,"end":2262.943,"text":"就醫保健方面 並列132億3163萬5千元包括依補助各種種集齊分孕醫學臨床教學與研究配合國家政策推動精準健康照護產業"},{"start":2264.68,"end":2278.792,"text":"進行癌症免疫細胞治療再生細胞治療精準醫學人工智慧高齡醫學及長期照護等前瞻創新之研究計畫11億380萬8千元增列121萬1千元2補助榮民及眷屬健保會及健保醫療部分負擔費用94億5278萬2千元增列4億"},{"start":2291.958,"end":2295.901,"text":"2,297萬8千元3.榮民醫療照護26億7,504萬5千元增列3,950萬7千元5.救養養護方面編列84億351萬8千元包括1."},{"start":2310.223,"end":2325.293,"text":"補助就養基於五十六億三千三百七十萬六千元二一百一十五年委外護理人員改採約用方式編列容加照護人力經費十七億八千一百九十七萬四千元"},{"start":2327.756,"end":2334.34,"text":"3.榮民安養及養護經費4億1751萬5千元4.長照萬我園區4億8614萬元與安養機構房舍整建工程7528萬3千元5.泰萬電動車890萬元6.退儲業務方面編列1063億8983萬6千元包括"},{"start":2354.824,"end":2370.596,"text":"一次退伍金 退休奉等人事費782億2337萬9千元二 移住退伍基金100億元三 年金改革節省機會移住退伍基金49億6092萬元四 優存差息補助經費126億9600萬元五 水電優待補助經費5億372萬8千元六"},{"start":2381.462,"end":2404.285,"text":"退組給予發放作業經費580萬9千元 其第一倍金編列1900萬元 結餘退府工作關係國防建軍及社會安定勝據本會將持續竭盡所能 完善退府制度接下來報告115年度附屬單位預算編列情形 首先報告"},{"start":2407.209,"end":2419.916,"text":"國軍退除役官兵安置基金等會國軍退除役官兵安置基金下設親近農場、武嶺農場、福壽山農場、彰化農場及台東農場五個分基金自律與輔導國軍退除役官兵就業及精進農業生產及投資事業管理永續積極落實基金之設置功能"},{"start":2431.93,"end":2450.365,"text":"1.115年度業務計畫重點1.產學合作增進學能2.多元執行打造技能3.公私協力穩定就業4.推動農訓專案及永續經營5.強化油氣設施建設帶動觀光永續發展6.多元行銷推廣提升農場品牌價值"},{"start":2458.813,"end":2463.917,"text":"7.強化安全管控,促進永續經營2.115年度預算編列進行1.收支餘處總收入30億1754萬1千元較114年度增加7337萬9千元約2.49%"},{"start":2477.062,"end":2480.743,"text":"二 總支出 編列21億3855萬元較114年度增加5083萬約2.43%三 本期剩餘8億7899萬1千元較114年度增加2254萬9千元約2.63%二 固定資產建設改良擴充 編列1億8326萬2千元"},{"start":2505.515,"end":2532.074,"text":"系 更新各項油氣設施與教學設備三 資金資轉投資配合各公司政治計畫編列投資金額1億元接下來報告榮民醫療作業基金本會榮民醫療作業基金下設台北、台中、高雄及屏東榮民總醫院四個分基金以支付盈虧方式運作提供退職役官兵及民眾優質健康照護"},{"start":2533.237,"end":2558.115,"text":"同時執行國家衛生政策推動醫學教學訓練及研究以後值榮民醫療體系競爭力及提升服務品質1.115年度業務計畫重點1.精進人力資源優化醫療效能2.強化疾病篩檢促進全民健康3.創新先端醫療發展智慧照護"},{"start":2559.969,"end":2575.355,"text":"四 優化醫療服務 落實友善就醫五 整合長期照護 建構安牢體系二 一百一十五年度預算編列進行一 收支餘處 總收入906億2689萬9千元較一百一十四年度增加58億3491萬元 約百分之六點八八"},{"start":2585.083,"end":2588.264,"text":"二 總支出編列870億2,031,000元較114年度增加54億7,102萬元 約6.71%三 本期剩餘36億6,868,000元較114年度增列3億6,389萬元 約11.22%"},{"start":2608.578,"end":2616.98,"text":"二 固定資產建設改良擴充 編列120億3172萬元包括專案計畫29億609萬8千元一般建築及設備計畫90億7162萬2千元本會依據基金收支保管及運用辦法審慎營運力求財務狀況穩健 並能循環運用 永續發展 有助於"},{"start":2638.291,"end":2655.944,"text":"退出一官兵就業技能專長培訓就業媒合國家醫學發展及農民券醫療照護等將結合前瞻思維持續精進提升輔導退出一官兵就業量能及服務品質敬請各位委員先進不吝指正與支持謝謝"},{"start":2662.677,"end":2677.734,"text":"好 謝謝補充介紹陳俊宇委員羅美玲委員我們先來確認議事錄請問在場委員對於議事錄有無疑漏或錯誤需要更正之處沒有好 議事錄確定"},{"start":2682.302,"end":2702.266,"text":"現在開始詢答本會委員4加2分鐘非本會委員4分鐘10點半截止4加210點半截止發言登記 如有臨時提案請於10點半前提出11點左右處理現在請陳俊宇委員上台質詢好 謝謝趙偉 我們有請閻主委"},{"start":2715.984,"end":2738.196,"text":"好 主委早今天我們想先跟退伍會所屬的機構對於勞動權益保障來進行討論這個議題我想過去也曾經跟您討論過我想政府必須要克遵法令維護勞工的基本權益這也是主委您所要追求的一個基本原則"},{"start":2739.192,"end":2766.967,"text":"那尤其目前台灣正面臨嚴峻的這種缺工潮那無論是醫療體系的這個護理人員還是各大農場的基層同仁都相當難招募到薪水加入那如果我們退伍會所轄管的相關機構屢屢傳出違反勞動法令的這個情勢不但是有損我們現職同仁的這個權益更有損整個退伍會體系的一個聲譽"},{"start":2768.186,"end":2788.512,"text":"那恐怕會造成留不住現有的人才也招募不到薪水的一個惡性循環那政府應該作為表率帶頭示範如何來建立一個友善合法的一個勞動環境所以我們對於這個退伍會所轄管的醫療觀光乃至於轉投資的相關事業"},{"start":2789.892,"end":2803.104,"text":"必然會以更高的標準來做檢視那這幾年多次發生違反勞動法令的案件其中一定有需要檢討的部分先從醫院的部分來討論我們從勞動部所公開的相關資料來看"},{"start":2810.11,"end":2828.026,"text":"光是今年以來被處分的案件當中有包括勞基法、職安法還有災保法等案例並且在這個案例的數量相較前幾年都有顯著的一個增加的情況那我想這部分我想先請教主委針對我們榮總體系"},{"start":2832.071,"end":2840.989,"text":"仍舊出現違反勞動法令的這種情勢那目前改善的狀況為何退會有沒有檢討這個案例增加的原因是什麼"},{"start":2842.309,"end":2866.345,"text":"謝謝委員的指導我想這個非常重要維護我們勞工的權益這是一定要做的我們這些職場都是營造一個友善的職場我們統計115年違反勞動基準法相關的容願有五家容願五家容願這裡面有六個案件我們分別都已經處理了主要它是申請加班"},{"start":2867.105,"end":2882.291,"text":"或者是拆群的刷卡記錄可能都有一些疏失這些我們分別都來督導給大家改善拆群系統一定要核實記錄然後出群的記載要精確到分中"},{"start":2883.751,"end":2911.922,"text":"嚴禁個人私下記載然後育育財線上系統來佐證這些剛剛跟委員報告的五家榮業六個案件我們分別都各案都分別來管制來指導他們完成改善的作為而且納入我們年度的績效考核加強勞動法制的一些教育訓練這是我們有關於榮業方面跟委員做回報已經有掌握相關的這個改進的一個進度吧"},{"start":2912.222,"end":2928.423,"text":"是都有為了督促我們醫院能夠強化法尊我們也看到勞動部在去年的8月1號生效新規定將針對醫學中心還有區域醫院違反勞基法將面臨加重的法源"},{"start":2929.885,"end":2957.497,"text":"那個結合這個勞動部加重裁法的這個標準我想請教主委是我們退伍會有沒有強化哪些內部控制還有這個管理的相關機制以確保這些醫院必須要落實規定也確實可以保障我們醫護人員的一個基本權請台北紅總院長跟您報告好請陳院長謝謝委員關心這個議題現在遵守勞動法令這是我們非常重要一件事情對不起"},{"start":2958.325,"end":2987.685,"text":"因為現在的醫事人力嚴重短缺如果再不遵守法令根本收不到人所以醫院裡面的各委員會相關委員會都定期來開會有勞動的投訴那甚至農總已經有工會台北農總已經有工會我們都會非常的重視然後一直討論如果有違法的地方我們一定要馬上改進但是呢這個案件上裡面其中有一件其實助理醫師聘用助理醫師他沒有適用勞基法"},{"start":2988.545,"end":3009.898,"text":"那所以我們現在訴願但是沒有經過我們解釋就已經開罰所以其實報告委員我們還是有點委屈不過呢我們會繼續的訴願可以申訴申訴好那另外我想參考這個立法院的預算中心所統計的相關資料在107年到114年我們違反勞基法的案件當中"},{"start":3010.838,"end":3018.466,"text":"最普遍的是違反的這個樣態就是違反第24條那剛剛可能就是主委您說的高達六次的部分"},{"start":3019.005,"end":3040.557,"text":"那所佔的這個違反案件的事成這些違規內容基本上都是這個延長工作的時間未加給這個工資那另外休息日延長工時也未給這個工資那直到今年這個違反的案例當中仍然有相關的情勢這個出現那針對這個加班未確實"},{"start":3043.599,"end":3067.167,"text":"幾星的部分 究竟是因為我們醫院內部的這個作業規定還是行政管理上的一個漏洞那退伍費我們要如何來確實改善所以各位委員包括這個我們從兩方面都做一個檢討我們第一個就是加班他一定要有必要性那應該是經過主管的指派或者同意之後再來去做這樣就不會產生一個落差"},{"start":3067.907,"end":3091.825,"text":"然後如果要加班一定要依法核發這個加班費這是一個人性化的管理然後用系統出勤的紀錄來計算剛剛跟委員報告這要計算到到分鐘那如果如果沒有禁止申報加班那麼核消一律就線上系統來辦理那這些我們相關的一些管制作為都持續來督導來管制來改善"},{"start":3093.326,"end":3118.043,"text":"那我想我們今天從這個醫療體系啦特別是我們最辛苦的醫護人員延伸談到我們退伍會所屬的農場的這個相關基層同仁不是要針對個案來詢問而是要檢討我們整個體系的這個管理缺失但是如果連國家所屬的我們的醫療機構還有我們的事業單位都無法提供一個合法友善的勞動環境"},{"start":3119.624,"end":3145.692,"text":"我們自己在想恐怕會很難期待到優秀人才會願意留下來為我們國家為民眾來服務所以這部分我想也請我們主委能以最高的標準來檢視那也請主委和我們各單位的主管還有我們相關的負責人能夠多加留意我們剛剛所提的部分確實來做改善提升我們的一個服務的效能"},{"start":3146.533,"end":3150.94,"text":"好 以上謝謝主委 謝謝主委謝謝陳軍營委員接下來我們有請羅美玲委員上台質詢"},{"start":3167.071,"end":3177.804,"text":"謝謝主席,有請嚴主委,還有我們榮總的幾位院長,北榮陳院長,鍾榮副院長,還有高雄榮總陳院長,屏東榮總王院長"},{"start":3182.536,"end":3193.34,"text":"主委早安首先我要先肯定北榮因為上次本席在這裡就針對於有關於新住民門診諮詢專線這個部分我們說應該要清楚的標示顯示在我們的網頁本席一下了諮詢台然後我們北榮當天馬上就來做調整"},{"start":3204.804,"end":3231.877,"text":"所以予以肯定那因為我看到有這個除了英文版之外還有越南版當然如果加上有印尼版會更好因為我們不管是新住民也好或是外籍移工其實越南跟印尼其實是人數是居多的那當然其實當天我不是只有要求北榮其實那時候我有要求各個這個榮總的這個醫院都要比照來辦理那目前我所看到只有北榮"},{"start":3232.937,"end":3259.166,"text":"有這個專線的這個顯示因為我覺得這個專線的顯示其實很重要因為對於移工也好或者是新住民也好可以在這網頁的這個禁用性來講的話其實是加強了非常的多所以呢本身是希望這個部分呢我們警察榮總體系呢都可以來設置這個新住民諮詢的這個專頁因為我看陳院長已經站在這裡準備要針對這部分來回答所以這部分你要再加強說明一下嗎"},{"start":3260.717,"end":3267.137,"text":"真的非常謝謝委員,當天你的指示我們就做了你剛才的指示加上印尼,今天下午就做好"},{"start":3267.577,"end":3290.809,"text":"今天下午就做好所以表示說其實要做的話其實是很快的今天就做好如果還有沒有什麼語言需要的話再交代一下是是是是這個部分的話但是我們都是兄弟一員是我們做一條心我們做他們都跟一起做是所以我自己也是想說一定要比照來做辦理因為可以當天一下質詢台就可以馬上處理的話我想這個門檻沒有很高啦所以其他的"},{"start":3291.489,"end":3294.991,"text":"院所應該要來比照辦理今天這個部分是要來肯定我們北榮北榮是龍頭其他各種院都會效仿是是是我是希望下次我在進入到各個醫院的這個網站的時候都可以看到類似的這個網頁專線"},{"start":3308.337,"end":3326.255,"text":"OK好那再來呢也是跟我們榮總有關係的就是我是看到了這個審計部的審計報告我本來是想說可以拿到114年的這個資料可是目前還沒有出來那我現在看到的是113年各榮總住院病患的人日數"},{"start":3327.316,"end":3349.575,"text":"那我們可以看到就是說我們這個各種種整體的實際的人數是比這個疫情少了7.01%其實就是少了減少了25萬人那我有看到裡面的資料有提到就是說北榮市因為玉里鳳林台東分院及屏東"},{"start":3350.937,"end":3367.752,"text":"榮總醫事人力不足所以導致住院人日數減少那這個我們可以理解可是很有趣的是整個數據上來看我們看到中榮喔中榮居然他是增加的他的這個住院病患人日數是比預期的增加了36555人那我反而是要問說中榮怎麼做得到"},{"start":3375.319,"end":3386.525,"text":"因為其他的都有面臨這個醫事原因不足的問題因為我看到屏東融種甚至是比原來一起的少了百分之三十以上所以中融怎麼做得到的"},{"start":3387.563,"end":3416.448,"text":"為什麼您的數字謝謝委員那主委給我們的指導就是要照顧好我們的醫護同仁所以我們目前各項福利措施還不錯所以目前並沒有人力短缺的問題那3月32號我們還得到衛福部我們友善護理職場認證醫學中心典範獎所以我們目前沒有任何的護理或者其他醫治人員短缺的問題所以我們可以繼續召開所以而且我們一直"},{"start":3417.188,"end":3433.863,"text":"可能口碑還不錯所以服務量能一直成長以上報告報告委員可以容我說幾句話是是是都可以來說本容是這樣子因為我們每一個月拿到的衛福部的三班護病比搭票獎金是所有公立院最高的"},{"start":3435.084,"end":3453.092,"text":"但是現在的治療跟過去的治療不一樣榮總的床很多現在漸漸的門診化譬如說化療以前要住院現在都已經導入門診所以我們門診成長了住院降低了這樣住院降低我刻意把它降低為什麼呢可以讓我們的護理師不要那麼辛苦"},{"start":3453.888,"end":3469.256,"text":"而且讓病人可以降低他的指數他不用住院他不用花錢當天往返所以我們的門診這個全球的趨勢門診化是重要的那但是護理的照護品質委員你相信我應該是效能濃度最高的"},{"start":3469.912,"end":3473.873,"text":"OK 好剛剛那個我們陳院長有提到就是這個有關於就是說對我們的住院病患人日數減少可是我們門診的這部分有增加我確實有看到這個數據有113年的部分確實是台北榮總是提高了7.77%然後屏東榮總呢雖然說他的這個"},{"start":3494.959,"end":3505.29,"text":"住院病患人數比預期少了百分之三十以上實際上他的這個門診病患的這個人數是增加的"},{"start":3509.995,"end":3531.736,"text":"那我是114年上任那屏東總去年的護理師進增加是68人那今年到4月為止目前我們招募護理師是100人就是截至到上個禮拜那今年有新開一個加護病房那4月份新開一個急診病房那今年會一共會再開"},{"start":3532.657,"end":3550.834,"text":"後面七月跟十月會各再開一個急性病房所以今年的住院人數跟預算數應該會達標那另外我們在做重度急救責任醫院的部分比期程提早了一年希望明年可以達標這樣OK好那再來呢高雄榮總要說明一下嗎"},{"start":3553.126,"end":3582.812,"text":"謝謝 也謝謝委員的資料那高雄農總的話其實醫院的收入 整體收入來講我們三家總院的現在整體收入都很持平穩定財務大概都很穩健那我們這個收入主要還是門及住那現在委員所提的是住院上面的一個情況那目前我們高雄農總在住院情況大概跟其他總院都一樣都還蠻相對穩定的那這是正常的一個起伏目前在門診上面也是持續的在2014年上面持續的一直往上提升那住院大概就持平 情況是穩定的"},{"start":3583.292,"end":3599.753,"text":"謝謝委員的指導所謂穩定的話是說我看不到114年的資料因為我們看今天的報告好像也沒提到這麼細節的東西像高雄榮總跟屏東榮總基本上來講我在數字上看到的是沒有達到預期的標準"},{"start":3602.156,"end":3617.669,"text":"文藝超標的我自看到的是中榮那當然剛剛的解釋是說也許就是說我的住院門診人數雖然少了可是我可能就是著重在門診的這個部分可以理解啦而倒是屏東對啊屏東我還是得要問一下因為像之前的話你們113年喔你們比預期少了百分之30以上其實這個是這個數字上來講的話是落差是比較大我不曉得114年這部分有沒有改善"},{"start":3629.533,"end":3649.013,"text":"報告委員我們114年的住院人日數有快速增加我們的總醫療收入是增加5.3億醫療收入來自於門診病患增加跟住院人日數增加所以目前整個招收護理師的情況都相當的不錯"},{"start":3649.634,"end":3672.767,"text":"所以到目前為止都是在惠里市的招聘這部分是順利的是不是目前來講的話因為之前我看到審計報告是說因為我們醫護人力不足才會造成目前所看到的這個榮總的住院變化人數是少的原因是因為來自於這裡所以目前都有補足是不是各個我們各個榮總體系都有補足這部分是不是"},{"start":3674.064,"end":3686.506,"text":"報告委員113年應該是護理師不夠導致各病房的收支率沒有辦法滿載那目前護理師都都不僅遭受順利而且都逐漸在增開新病房"},{"start":3686.977,"end":3703.771,"text":"OK 好 謝謝因為時間的關係因為我覺得我們榮總一直都是我們醫療體系的這個標杆那當然我們看到數據上有一些落差的時候會來想了解到底是發生什麼事情那我們當然是希望能夠更好OK 好 以上謝謝謝謝委員指導謝謝榮委員 接下來我們請黃仁委員"},{"start":3718.565,"end":3721.77,"text":"謝謝主席,有請我們演出委我們請主委黃委員長"},{"start":3729.298,"end":3755.163,"text":"主委早想探討一下我們在去年立法院6月10號通過的一個三路通過國軍退儲役官兵輔導條例第27條之2的修正案恢復上校以上退儲役軍人職子女教育補助費在去年的6月27號公布實施"},{"start":3756.384,"end":3768.097,"text":"那輔導會完成法規審查明年7月明定去年8月1號就要實施了實行不過退不會在115年的這個"},{"start":3771.269,"end":3785.111,"text":"預算子女教育補助費編列4億9千萬那和往年的額度差不多顯然是來不及將上校以上退出於金人子女的教育補助費編進去那請問一下"},{"start":3787.917,"end":3807.675,"text":"這個制度在去年的8月1號就應該實施法規的部分已經完善了但是現在還沒有發放的原因是什麼是行政院卡住了還是因為輔導會不敢編補助這個經費主委你來說明一下報告委員跟委員說明一下"},{"start":3808.876,"end":3834.945,"text":"這件事情大院通過之後我們完成法定的程序公告然後開始審議會發給辦法完成之後我們在去年九月初送到行政院那院裡面主要考慮整個要更周延那就是所謂的軍公教都能夠資源共享都能把這件事做好所以花園實際上要做一些整合跟審查"},{"start":3835.845,"end":3853.145,"text":"我們這段時間分成三個層面不斷的跟行政院保持聯繫第一個層面就是業館的各處主他要去聯繫窗口第二個是我們的副主委第三是我本人院裡面所有的長官也好還有所有的政委以及各處我們都一直保持聯繫積極在作業"},{"start":3855.567,"end":3870.559,"text":"那麼這筆預算我想我們輔導會可以用退出役官兵退休給付這個預算來支支是沒有問題的而且就是發給他們下來我們都可以用年度預算來支應這是沒有問題跟委員所說明"},{"start":3871.539,"end":3895.832,"text":"因為這個本來就得以審查在朝野已經釋出了割退一步在這樣的一個氛圍之下本期期待上校以上退儲役軍人殖民教育補助費今年就可以真正的實行但是因為在預算中並不包含這個部分請問一下主委如果今年下半年要落實"},{"start":3897.645,"end":3903.846,"text":"若是這個部分的補助,這經費要從哪裡編出來?年度的經費可以"},{"start":3905.956,"end":3932.201,"text":"跟委員報告我是退出給付處的處長那我們基本上在我們的退出以官兵退休給付的人事費向下有編這一筆錢是四億九千萬那我們的退出業務費可以由這個他人事費的向下來檢討支應這個是沒有問題的只是因為現在發給辦法還沒有通過過的話我們一定會可以做一些補發以上報告好"},{"start":3933.041,"end":3955.124,"text":"因為我們就按照依照預算法的第30條會期年度開始9個月前也就是說每一年的4月前行政院必須要先訂定下年度施政的方向所以現在輔導會差不多要開始要準備編列明年的一個概算"},{"start":3956.638,"end":3976.991,"text":"今年度的預算來不及編那在這一次的編列明年度的預算的時候要把上校以上退出於職女教育補助費是不是可以編進去了是不是還不可以是可以把它編進去那另外就是"},{"start":3979.158,"end":3996.549,"text":"本席在去年的10月這個輔導會的一個業務報告的時候向主委爭取希望榮民到精醫精醫院就診也可以免除健保部分的一個負擔但是主委向本席承諾輔導會會啟動這個工作那讓榮民不會面臨到這個選擇精醫或榮醫院的兩難也可以和錦霄海巡"},{"start":4008.357,"end":4031.904,"text":"移民、空勤人員、現役退、現退役人員享受一樣的待遇所以據本席了解那輔導會經法規內部的研究後今年的3月30日已送出行政院會診各部會的意見了諸位事務了解一下行政院的意向那行政院會不會支持"},{"start":4032.665,"end":4050.019,"text":"是 谢谢委员指导这个案子我们4月初把这个就是有志农民到军医院开放到军医院去看病这个案子我们完成了内部的作业之后送到行政院在4月初那么韩文送到行政院审议那么行政院目前"},{"start":4051.821,"end":4077.173,"text":"相關的各處主計還有相關的各處在做一個審閱會辦當中我們一直都保持聯繫有掌握那目前狀況都正常我們現在等他下來之後我們就可以來做本席在這個地方希望行政院我呼籲行政院因為這個案子大家都非常的支持也認同為什麼"},{"start":4077.984,"end":4101.054,"text":"因為這個是截變的一個事項、一個項目嘛對不對整合了所有的這些警、消、海巡、移民、空行人員及現退役人員享受一樣的待遇這樣的一個狀況我想諸位你當初去年11月的時候提到這個案子你非常很認同的也希望"},{"start":4101.701,"end":4107.725,"text":"呼籲行政院趕快,趕快通過這個案子你們都已經呈報了嘛,對不對好,謝謝各位,謝謝委員"},{"start":4130.592,"end":4139.278,"text":"謝謝主席 邀請退會的顏主委以及裴隆的陳院長請顏主委陳院長賴委員早早我想這個大家都了解啦 這個農民體系它主要三大塊嘛 是吧農民的救養這個老的跟 不要說老的 過去的跟現在的大家不一樣 關注眾都不一樣"},{"start":4159.631,"end":4183.198,"text":"再過來是農場 再過來是事業那我今天跟你講的就是養老跟事業你這個事業講的是投資啦那這個養老部分像你就是農民中院這部分很大一塊很大一塊那現在我仔細讀了一下就農總的整個在2026的美國的媒體它的ranking這個主委是在第幾名吧"},{"start":4186.544,"end":4189.427,"text":"174名 274名 274名 274名 274名 274名 274名 274名 274名 274名 274名 274名 274名 274名 274名 274名 274名 274名 274名 274名 274名 274名 274名 274名 274名 274名 274名 274名 274名 274名 274名 274名 274名 274名 274名 274名 274名 274名 274名 274名 274名 274名 274名 274名 274名 274名 274名 274名 274名 274名 274名 274名 274名 274名 274名 274名 274名 274名 274名 274名 274名 274名 274名 274名 274名 274名 274名 274名 274名 274名 274名 274名 274名 274名 274"},{"start":4209.599,"end":4215.883,"text":"所以觀光與資格來講的話這個陳院長啊來這裡當院長都委屈了他應該去當衛福部長也差不多這個這裡請問北龍一年賺多少錢一年研究二十幾億賺多少錢一年業內只有賺1.14億1.14還扣掉你餐飲的咧"},{"start":4232.177,"end":4243.368,"text":"餐飲算業務外 美食街停車場加起來兩點多億台大多少台大我不知道它的數據好 我先跟你講一個題目 大債問的一個題目就是 這個 主委有沒有考慮過為了龍總的長遠發展"},{"start":4254.536,"end":4279.017,"text":"榮總跟陽明合併併到教育部而不是退伍會這是一個很大的問題先聽我講完全世界好的大學你現在已經這麼頂尖了好的醫院基本上坐在大學裡面比如說哈佛比如說John Hopkins等等的很少說自己一個體系變成一個很頭的這個醫院或是醫學大學等等的"},{"start":4279.557,"end":4295.851,"text":"因為畢竟有一個強有力的學術單位來給你back up我也仔細查一下台大它的論文數是比你強的它的基礎研究比你強那跨領域的研究比你強某種強的就是臨床醫學專科發展與應用所以這比較中間還是有區別的就以台大來講如果講SCI台大這部分是遙遙離線 籠總的我覺得這樣對吧"},{"start":4307.541,"end":4315.975,"text":"其實楊明交大跟榮總現在的關係是非常密切雖然沒有結婚但是很快很早就睡在一起"},{"start":4317.995,"end":4333.604,"text":"大家感情很好這比喻很好咧很早就睡 要怎麼睡在一起啦這條路咧因為我也是楊交大的教授兼任那我們楊明交大醫學院的院長是我們的副院長所以這關係 主委指示我們關係密切但是不見得來來來 我要強調這一點請問你"},{"start":4337.906,"end":4357.336,"text":"這樣比喻不見得很好啦台大醫院 台大醫學院的院長大還是台大醫院的院長大 請問你我兩個都是好朋友 我覺得兩個都蠻大的但是不能講兩個都蠻大的啦台灣大型醫學院 輻射醫院好像是醫學院院長大 但是管理醫院是院長在管理是啦 醫學院當然大所以照理講的話"},{"start":4362.758,"end":4370.184,"text":"陽明交大的那個醫學院長應該要比榮總院長大可是大家都知道榮總院長大所以你們現在是up級雖然睡在一起的位置不一樣對不對 是你大現在來講是榮總大 不是陽交大大報告委員跟委員報告研究的事情我要澄清一下現在我們的研究跟都市共同發表我們加起來的量能跟台大沒有差很多"},{"start":4391.959,"end":4421.319,"text":"台灣史丹佛最好的臨床醫學領域的研究學者北榮跟台大一點都沒有輸你們那頂尖的吧 比如說Nature Science這個你跟台大比還是輸啊平均的影響因素非常相近我們就算那個影響因子而且對於學人 就是說醫學系的這些教授們其實鼓勵他們去做研究啦幹什麼的這一部分incentive不夠啦"},{"start":4421.659,"end":4440.565,"text":"好 是再關心密切來 我就問你一個我最後一句話就問你一個某一個私立大學他說發表一篇在SCI裡面impact factor上有一定的weight比如五分以上所以你要不取然後可以給他免交一門課"},{"start":4442.438,"end":4454.916,"text":"楊明可以做得到嗎?楊教導你幫忙做決定其實如果是我們共同發表的文章在榮總給的獎勵是非常高的那如果還不夠都可以討論可以再講話我現在跟你講"},{"start":4457.64,"end":4482.709,"text":"某私立大學對於研究因為大家大學排名這個然後回過來最後一句話認真去思考這是一個世界的趨勢這個現在來講是頭重腳輕台大比台大就好了醫學系醫學院的院長他的位階絕對高於醫院的院長雖然院長資源很多很偉大但是在榮總不是榮總是榮總院長大"},{"start":4484.97,"end":4512.428,"text":"陽明交大的醫學院的院長想基本上overall是這個樣子是不一樣的頭重腳輕現在是一個畸形的有bias你認認思考一下好不好這個今天就特別來這裡最後一點就是要肯定一下院長在主委面前肯定一下院長在找那個叫什麼院區來的什麼院區你說我們北榮信義院區北榮信義院區增加有多大"},{"start":4513.691,"end":4529.646,"text":"總共包括虎林街旁邊加起來快兩千坪對於造福台北市人民要去就醫比較方便這一點值得肯定九千多萬我們絕對支持謝謝謝謝賴慈寶委員 各位請回接下來進行巡大委員 牛許廷委員謝謝主席 言主委有請來 主委請"},{"start":4545.74,"end":4559.833,"text":"劉委員好主委早安這個上一次我們在退服會質詢的時候本席在這邊幫這個北榮桃分院的基層護理師請命希望可以改善他們的工作環境那是從這個閒置宿舍的盤點跟提供給這個在這邊服務的護理師這個方向"},{"start":4561.614,"end":4577.023,"text":"來做這個要求那原主委當初非常爽快的答應一個月之內來盤點跟檢討那既然盤點跟檢討時間快到了我們當然也要持續來做追蹤就本席私底下的了解這你們確實有做盤點這本席給你們高度的肯定非常的有效率"},{"start":4577.523,"end":4597.773,"text":"不過問題來了就是盤點的結果好像有點狀況就是說因為畢竟是閒置的宿舍啦時間長了所以有些房間可能是沒有整理的狀態牆壁斑駁啊過於老舊啊等等一些的狀況如果只是實際名義上我先開放但如果居住環境不夠好的話那恐怕就是失去了當初的這個美意嘛那現在盤點的結果怎麼樣請退幅會簡單做報告"},{"start":4600.734,"end":4607.801,"text":"另外目前有多少間可以給大家來做申請針對不敷使用的部分配套的措施是什麼請檢要回答 謝謝"},{"start":4608.99,"end":4631.27,"text":"現在他陶榮三班戶併比是ok符合規定的第一個人力這個委員關心的宿舍的問題他有分兩類一個是多房間的宿舍那多房間宿舍他有70戶70戶目前裡面空的有空房16戶16戶裡面有9戶是要代修的第二類是單房間的宿舍單房間宿舍是131床"},{"start":4633.97,"end":4653.019,"text":"呃總共現在目前空床是15床那是15床那麼呃依據呃委員知道我們當然不希望這個空置太多但是陶榮完全是按照他呃相關申請的資格來做一些來一些一些配付啊對現在陶榮院長又來我請他再跟委員做個補充可以請"},{"start":4655.919,"end":4674.824,"text":"委員好上次委員指導之後主委有立刻派我們副主委到現場去勘查我們現在房舍的狀況我們其實現在房舍佔用率大概是73.8%到87.2%實際上我們還有空的房間可以提供給院內執行職務的同仁申請"},{"start":4681.826,"end":4698.935,"text":"所以這部分在臨床應用上面沒有問題跟委員保證那至於委員所提到我們有九間現在要因為三十多年要整修的那個是的確那個比較老舊那會上已經有指導我們今年已經開始規劃然後編列預算有編列預算啦"},{"start":4699.896,"end":4719.498,"text":"要可能要在明年那我們今年會先規劃跟委員先報告如果可以的話當然因為你這個是醫院體系嘛財務上調度怎麼樣你們找一個可以最快處理的方案這是本期今天提質詢的要點嘛所以既然有好的事情就趕快來落實雖然你有七八成是滿足的但能夠釋出尤其是給這護理人員多一點的這個好的"},{"start":4720.018,"end":4744.235,"text":"待遇我想對於再一次提升的人力它是有一定的幫助好吧請院長把這事放在心上在這個地方我們花一點點時間來做研討趕快來做執行可以嗎我們會盡快協助草叢拯救這個我也非常謝謝委員隊我們分院的支持跟幫忙因為我們醫院三十多年有很多地方都很老舊所以我們最近先把急性病房先整建了"},{"start":4744.275,"end":4765.511,"text":"沒關係你醫院你要調度你的資源然後做一些合理的安排包含專業的醫療品質的提升這都是對的但我意思說不要忽略了這一段好這段我們撥一點經費至少讓他有進度讓他往前走可以嗎好謝謝好再來我接著請教一樣這個是人力缺額的部分因為這我們被預算中心的報告點名那當然他用的是112年的這樣一個數字說這個討分院的人員的缺額率25.09是相對偏高的"},{"start":4771.584,"end":4786.475,"text":"那這個我們就問了退府會退府會回了一份這個相關的資料你講說我公職護理的空缺率已經歸零了那當然公職護理的空缺率降到零表示你很積極在做聘用這當然是表示你做了一定的努力不過我要提醒一下"},{"start":4787.976,"end":4805.728,"text":"預算中心的報告裡面寫的其實是整體人力的缺額率它不是只是針對公職護理的空缺率我們當然都希望各方各面的人力的增補要能夠持續來做改善持續來趕上公職護理補齊了不表示這個數字它就可以"},{"start":4806.488,"end":4828.435,"text":"有效降低啊對不對還是有努力精進的一些空間啊那請問現在的按照預算中心給你的指教這個實際人力啊也總體人力的缺額率現在是多少報告員我們現在整體容苑都是沙漢戶民筆還有日班的我知道你戶民筆有WR這個資料裡面有寫這個我曉得都是符合規定的"},{"start":4830.803,"end":4844.189,"text":"來院長補充一下好了沒關係今天都特別來了謝謝你那個謝謝委員對於我們醫院的關心那在這邊報告其實我們現在現有的那個護理人力有312位那去年的話因為受到受到那個"},{"start":4845.905,"end":4871.629,"text":"圍牢降臨退休的還有一些公職退休的那大概那個有14位可是我們今年就去年到現在我們公職了我們補了15位公職補滿沒有問題那在在那個契約的部分我們去年到現在總共補了97契約的補了82位所以我們現在的護理人力能夠應付我們現在的臨床需要"},{"start":4873.249,"end":4895.556,"text":"這個事情這樣處理因為預算中心畢竟可以指教我們當然就在這個場合提出來做一下討論那你後續就按照預算中心的定義就是說他的缺額率是怎麼算那你這段時間針對這些的缺額你做了哪些改善的措施現在補充的狀況怎麼樣你回頭提問書面報告就好好不好我們來做長期追蹤我們當然不希望桃園被點名我們希望做好"},{"start":4896.576,"end":4918.486,"text":"後發先至只要他能夠逐步的有改善有執政努力本期都會給你時間好讓我們就希望最後的結果是好的好最後一個要提醒這個一樣是有關於這個這個改善人力缺額跟改善工作環境的部分我要討論一下有關於這個容願獎勵金的這樣一個機制的問題按照現在的規定我們的退服會相關的容分院的這個獎勵金的發放"},{"start":4920.027,"end":4939.581,"text":"應該是比較以前的概念啦就我本席的了解就是醫師拿85%護理師非醫師的人力共分15%當然醫師是整個醫療體系的絕對主力他有絕對的專業我們都要給予尊重這是沒有問題的不過我也請這個主委也好或者是院長稍微了解一下就是說公立的醫療機構譬如說部桃這個部桃嘛"},{"start":4941.923,"end":4966.288,"text":"或者是台北市立各級醫院其實大概也是經歷了討論之後發現也護理師缺額等等問題都很嚴重所以大概都做了若干的調整變成說醫師70其他人員30這個獎勵金的這樣子的一個比例那我們現在這個部分容院的體系也好或者是退服會的體系有沒有在這個都是醫院你們剛剛還講睡在一起對不對有沒有做一下溝通然後在這個人力的部分因為本席擔心你這"},{"start":4967.708,"end":4996.611,"text":"其他的醫院相對來講其他的這個待遇這個獎勵金是比較好的容量體系相對來講少一些那會不會造成這個在裡面的流動我寧願到別的醫院啊就護理師等等那就造成惡性循環啊因為其他的人力比較充足醫療量能比較充足的時候病患當然就多了嘛病患多了就影響醫院的收入嘛那我們這邊就變成惡性循環本身擔心這個事所以特別提出來問一下這樣子的一個制度上的差異有沒有打算要做檢討跟重新處理請回答"},{"start":4998.304,"end":5012.369,"text":"我們現在正在檢討委員關心的我們所有的容顏的獎勵金要怎麼去發放怎麼樣去提高他們的一些待遇目前正在檢討當中那你們大概有抓多少時間我們都願意給時間一個月"},{"start":5013.809,"end":5030.775,"text":"一個月?好,我就喜歡這個退府會這個非常之爽,好不好那我就期待啦,我跟各位是怎麼樣,我們都長期追蹤每個月裡面你要有一定的進度,讓這事情往前走,我們都希望榮業的體系,退府會體系在這個地方可以表現得非常好,好不好好,謝謝,辛苦了"},{"start":5045.171,"end":5053.431,"text":"你好 我們接下來請王定宇委員質詢好 謝謝主席 麻煩主委"},{"start":5060.134,"end":5062.918,"text":"我先請教第一個問題我們當然好不容易拖了那麼久開始進入預算的審查所以第一個就叫一個預算項目"},{"start":5078.438,"end":5105.435,"text":"我們在退伍府會的國際退伍軍人事務交流其實很重要退伍軍人交流像我們國軍將領跟日本的退役將領那個叫局媒會還是媒局會其實這是很好的外交上的一個互動那我看本席特別注意到你們在2025年編列的預算是474萬那交流的國家呢有你們那時候名列出來是五個國家啦"},{"start":5106.445,"end":5124.211,"text":"那接下來到2026年也就是今年度國家你們在說明欄上面只剩下三個國家預算呢沒有減少還是474萬我第一個問題是請教主委我們確認是交流只剩這三個國家嗎"},{"start":5126.421,"end":5150.189,"text":"跟委員報告這上面列的表是完全正確的我們今年為什麼做這個調整因為我們第一個是騎乘美國還是三大退協為主然後增加太平洋區的一個退伍軍組織太平洋區所以美國嚴格來講應該是算四趟每一趟的騎乘有不一樣有做調整人次也會增加那第一島鏈主要是菲律賓"},{"start":5151.849,"end":5176.256,"text":"那個美國啦或者是日本啦菲律賓這個還有的我先不問啦因為少了兩個國家交流嘛第一個我能理解就是我們的預算年度坦白講我們就算預算通過這個年度大概已經過一半了啦就是很順利通過到五月份三讀通過到你們開始動枝呢我們財政年度過了一半結果預算的執行呢"},{"start":5177.316,"end":5203.317,"text":"這時候才給你 確實會有一些問題所以我的問題是說 你的預算額度並沒有減少可是國家少了兩國為什麼泰國跟韓國被拿掉了出了什麼問題我們是太平洋地區以第一島鏈為主所以是以日本跟菲律賓為主然後跟委員報告的 我們日本可能去了很多單位有增加 就這三國增加的量"},{"start":5205.509,"end":5224.302,"text":"你還是沒有告訴我韓國跟泰國原來有在交流尤其我們退府會我們在泰北那裡我們曾經有農場我們一個伯伯在那裡他過世的時候親王還為他這樣辦喜我們以前在泰北的農場做得還不錯啊那為什麼現在泰國跟韓國被拿掉了我還是沒有聽到答案"},{"start":5226.824,"end":5246.144,"text":"委員好我是輔照處處長因為我們今年以這個預算我們還是把它重點是放在這個美國三大退協跟這個日本跟韓國跟菲律賓那有關這個到菲律賓跟到泰國的價錢費用差沒有那麼多啦那坦白講如果有必要474萬變520萬"},{"start":5249.167,"end":5270.119,"text":"都可以接受你還是沒有回答我泰國跟韓國出什麼問題不能講不方便講我就尊重那裡有沒有什麼事情我們下去就再檢討今年的預算因為去年後來我這個預算我沒有意見我現在是在想項目韓國有沒有展示互動上的不便或不友善沒有泰國呢"},{"start":5273.232,"end":5289.645,"text":"報委我們下去再跟您報告好了那就是不便講嘛是是是因為你們繞來繞去我就不再講你們額度問題因為那兩個國家被擺明的拿掉泰國我們的我們是有農場在那裡嗎現在我們還有沒有農場跟我們交流的農場有交流的農場嘛"},{"start":5290.936,"end":5307.858,"text":"然後我們以前太北孤軍其實我們以前有一些人在那裡後代當然那邊啊 時代變遷等等所以泰國被拿掉 韓國被拿掉應該是有故事啦那你們不方便講我就不為難主委了啦會後會後對啊 我也為難你 待會不跟我握手"},{"start":5309.941,"end":5324.498,"text":"好我們下一個下一個是我曾經質詢我現在要追蹤這個事情這跟北榮就有關係了謝謝北榮我們重粒子的癌症治療在精準醫療跟化療的最後一塊拼圖在醫療界這是很重要的"},{"start":5325.259,"end":5352.37,"text":"很多人把這視為不幸罹患癌症最後特殊那幾種癌症救命的一個方式所以它很貴一個療程可能就幾百萬它非常貴所以幾乎都是自費那我上次問的重點有兩個第一個因為它貴可是花人民納稅的人建制我印象北榮這個重粒子癌症治療中心是全球第14座嘛所以它是世界上它也有稀有性但我們很不希望"},{"start":5353.618,"end":5359.255,"text":"像我父親是癌症過世的那我們家境不好但我們不希望在治療癌症"},{"start":5360.538,"end":5386.877,"text":"成為財富變成生命的分界點懂我意思嗎就不能因為沒錢我就醫不起我有錢我就能醫得起這個不好所以當時我看到你們安排是有2%的醫療量能要讓這些低收的減免我那時候提出來2%實在太少了我們建置這一個重粒子治療中心都是人民的納稅錢"},{"start":5389.584,"end":5412.913,"text":"變成你們的基金變成什麼但總是是公款所以2%太少了我一直希望能夠增加對於一些收入沒那麼富裕甚至不用完全減免對於一般所得的有一些折扣對於中低收入的給予減免那我們也希望中低收入或一般所得的永遠健康用不到最好但他要用到的時候我們有一定的百分比那你這2%"},{"start":5414.776,"end":5419.055,"text":"適度的增加這第一個命題第二個命題是我們的農民農卷"},{"start":5421.063,"end":5446.533,"text":"應該要另外你現在這2%的減免是把榮民農券放在裡面所以那個院長應該印象我上次有問這一題就榮民農券是我們退福會照顧的對象萬一需要的時候他應該有一個項目的減免就幾百萬的是一般自費但對榮民農券我雖然不是中低收入戶可是我一般所得坦白講要拿幾百萬去做中立子也不一定負擔得起所以榮民農券的減免優惠要一套"},{"start":5447.233,"end":5451.097,"text":"然後對於一般納稅人 一般民眾的減免有另外一套"},{"start":5452.389,"end":5479.781,"text":"你們現在經過快一年了,你們規劃怎麼樣?報告委員,讓我報告一下先說明這個費用是從幾十萬到一百,最貴的就一百六十萬那它的...它是一個完整療程?一個完整療程,最多就一百六十萬,看疾病的類別不一樣那比方去年一年呢,它的收入是三億五千萬左右但營運成本是五億,一年平均要虧一點五億"},{"start":5480.521,"end":5499.772,"text":"那這個建制22.5億是來自民間的幫忙企業界的幫忙剩下22.5億是來自榮總醫療助益基金那這個我們已經很努力縱使以後三班24小時運轉一年至少還在賠1億但是我們收費其實是每一個治療都是在賠錢其實我們在醫療上很少用賠錢來計算"},{"start":5502.533,"end":5516.951,"text":"生命是無價的啦但是呢如果要算的話健保也在虧嘛醫療我比較不期待用這樣來算我們用其他科部的稍微一點英語來補貼這個事情我們不會去上下這個方案有沒有新的做法針對農民農卷針對一般民農報告委員現在2%現在還有8個名額"},{"start":5521.937,"end":5543.71,"text":"那我們過去用了五個 五個有一個是榮民那這個是重粒子不是每一個人都需要我們很多人要來要求重粒子我們評估這個健保就夠了他正規的癌症別有差別嗎癌症別 專門的癌症別那不要用大砲倒打小鳥OK 我建議我們北榮或者我們退府會多宣導既然你說名額還沒用完"},{"start":5544.631,"end":5566.944,"text":"我們希望每個人健康可是當他需要的時候有這個優惠的名額讓他那等到用到不足我們再來討論增加我們南部有沒有計畫來增設一座如果有醫院願意加入做功德賠錢行列我都很歡迎醫院都在做功德啦所以醫院都是免稅的啊對不對我們高榮要不要設一座"},{"start":5568.513,"end":5589.403,"text":"高榮跟文豹現在有一個粒子治療設備的一個平台小組你現在看這個醫療資源分配北榮有那中國醫藥大學輻射醫院他要設一座花蓮慈濟也要設幾座他們有計畫啦可能機器還沒有買啦看到我們賠很多他們在考慮沒關係我會到衛防委員會去問那我意思說南部連計畫設置都沒有"},{"start":5591.864,"end":5621.484,"text":"那醫療資源不應該有城鄉差距啦我們高榮要不要爭取在南部設置一座否則我知道有一些人舟車勞頓那用到重粒子其實都已經蠻辛苦的高榮有沒有計畫謝謝報告委員謝謝委員的一個指導從委員去年那個時候諮詢的時候我們醫院裡面在這半年當中大概開過十二次會開始很努力在評估那目前四月份的話會把我們粒子的治療會把評估報告開始送到輔導會我們現在已經是完成了那我今天沒有問題你都還沒說一年了耶"},{"start":5623.085,"end":5641.883,"text":"現在因為它要衛福部的一個平和啦我上次質詢是10月8號問的嘛我們現在提出來也許我們退輔會或者衛福部大家思考南部要不要設一個那特別高榮的部分你們直升機降落的困難點"},{"start":5644.305,"end":5658.814,"text":"當時院長跟總統有交代我覺得那邊要否則澎湖啊離外島要用直升機後送就已經緊急了結果還要停小港機場再偶爾從小港到高融然後那個高速公路那邊都在塞車不理想你們旁邊那個要設置停機坪"},{"start":5659.574,"end":5680.018,"text":"或者樓頂加鋼構增加停機的可能性你們方案趕快提出來因為院長當時我在現場嘛院長是認為應該要做你們不只是服務高雄連澎湖的後送都是你們這裡所以這個後送的停機坪附近有一塊軍區的地或者你們的屋頂你盡快把方案提出來趁院長這個承諾還在有在規劃有在規劃謝偉"},{"start":5688.553,"end":5689.514,"text":"主席長 那有請那個嚴主委還有那個北榮陳院長"},{"start":5713.044,"end":5736.871,"text":"今天在審預算那天我也把預算看了一下當然也參考了一下預算中心的報告大家知道我過去是勞動學者所以我就把很多勞動上的一些配置有特別看了一下預算中心的報告裡面也講到尤其是護理人員缺額非常嚴峻我們等一下再來講護病比的狀況"},{"start":5739.092,"end":5758.72,"text":"因為玉山村也有把幾個榮總醫院的部分違反勞動法的部分有列出來我就特別去查了一下初委跟院長知道現在依照勞動法80條之一跟職安法49條如果違反的話他是會在網路上公告的"},{"start":5759.8,"end":5788.277,"text":"這個大家都知道嘛 這個都是查得到我想這個事情其實不是只有罰錢的事情我想又涉及到很多我們這個醫院的一些信譽一些商譽 我覺得這個可能要特別注意一下那我看了預算中心的報告 然後我又查了一下我今天特別拿電腦來那我發現好像115 最近還有一些裁罰的記錄院長應該知道吧像勞基法 像一個聘用住院醫師的事情"},{"start":5789.281,"end":5806.148,"text":"不只不只 然後還有一些像這個30條 還都有這個相關的問題甚至加班 好像是比較是在分院的部分啦就是他的一些登載啦 玉里分院那院長這邊有沒有針對這個部分有一些改善的方法"},{"start":5807.349,"end":5828.58,"text":"報告委員我們現在對勞基法這個政府的規定當然是非常嚴守因為現在的醫療人力短缺你如果沒有尊重被放上網路以後你的人力會更短缺所以這一塊是非常的重視但是體系很大你每一個角落你要顧到說哪一個同仁剛好有點違反了那我們當然醫院馬上處理"},{"start":5830.081,"end":5847.608,"text":"那聘用助醫師那事情是一個誤會,他根本不是用好錢來的那醫療分院他已經積極在處理那醫院的委員會裡面很重視這一塊這個事關我們的競爭力,事關我們能不能招收到好的人才所以每一個體系,每一個兄弟,大家都,院長都每一個重視"},{"start":5848.268,"end":5868.702,"text":"是 是 我就舉幾個簡單的例子啦他違反勞基法24條啦 那24條是什麼就是他延長工時 就是我們一般所用的加班啊沒有給加班費啊我想現在這個時候是不該再有這樣子的一個現象出現了現在都用電子化 所以會讓他的那個這種失誤 人為操作的低級錯誤會降低"},{"start":5870.243,"end":5887.163,"text":"對 因為有一些像這個30條一些紀錄的部分我都沒有說我覺得像24條這種就是加班沒有給人家加班分我覺得這個就不該出現了因為其實人力就已經很短缺了怎麼還會發生這樣的狀況那我是希望就你們這個醫院不管是分院"},{"start":5887.944,"end":5904.893,"text":"他這個HR的系統可能要有一些些改善的方式啦剛剛到底是什麼東西出了問題我知道啦其實我想很多人都不願意違背勞動法啦我接觸了很多對象那其實都是一些有些人說不注意啦或怎樣啦所以希望啦希望這個有一些改進的一個狀況"},{"start":5906.354,"end":5932.094,"text":"那另外其實還不只勞基法好像還有一些違反像這114 113還有一些性品的狀況就是那個資訊的時候要做一些那個要做一些處理要做立即有效糾正補救措施這個好像是在南部的這個榮總這個我今天就不再多說那我是希望就是這個因為人力非常短缺所以這個部分可能要特別注意那另外就是"},{"start":5933.114,"end":5950.339,"text":"剛剛前面那個陳委員有提到,我有特別去查了好像那個災保法也有處罰了一件這個院長應該知道這個好像罰了兩萬塊,就最近的事情嘛那這個部分是怎樣?填報的系統或者是申報的狀況有問題嗎?還是一個是我們關都醫院,關都醫院是台北市政府委託榮總經理"},{"start":5952.119,"end":5967.413,"text":"他在早上忘了簽到結果他就手寫他沒有記錄時間這種已經請官路院院長一定要嚴格管理一定要詳述時間才能有公平正義所以這個會注意官路院已經在注意"},{"start":5968.137,"end":5991.777,"text":"這個可能是公司的部分,好像有一個比較是工資申報的部分工資的金額到底是多少錢?那個是聘用住院醫師,那不適用勞基法你是說官渡那一個嗎?官渡是,官渡是簽到的問題那榮總的問題是聘用住院醫師的問題聘用住院醫師的問題榮總是無辜的,現在在宿院"},{"start":5992.965,"end":6019.803,"text":"所以我覺得不只那一項啦那因為我看到非常多項啦也許這個院長如果有什麼樣的問題我們可以討論一下因為我沒有想到拉出龍種竟然會有這麼多的這個違反的這個案例啦那因為現在其實這次預托中心他報告也有講到啦就是因為這樣其實我們這個貨幣比例非常非常高我聽到前面的委員也有提到這個事啦我沒想到現在就龍種來說這個事情應該要怎麼解決啊或者說我知道你們也有你們的困難啦"},{"start":6020.803,"end":6045.852,"text":"北榮現在三班護病筆是達標的而且我們得到的三班護病筆的獎勵金是全國公立院最高的那急診室又不用塞就會證明一切急診室如果用塞你的一定有問題榮總急診室井南有序都控制在獄子之內 中榮也是控制得很好我想其他我們的總院都控制得很好那護病筆不是問題但最大的問題也需要立法院幫我們解決"},{"start":6046.872,"end":6074.998,"text":"公務員55歲護理師為勞降職比早退休我們再怎麼努力收新的護理師去年就退掉76個到私人醫療機構去領第二份薪水領退休金結果這樣子私人醫院65歲才要退甚至更勞我們公家機關60歲護理師如果沒有任主管一定要退這個是對公立醫院非常傷害政府一定要來幫忙雖然公立醫院是一個發展非常困難"},{"start":6075.518,"end":6090.988,"text":"是啦 院長我不是在說你們做得不好啦我是聽說啦就很多人因為我是在做勞動的嘛有的人跟我說一些意見包括院長剛剛說的都是啦那因為我們前幾年把這個55歲那個圍牢把護理人放進去啦我知道這個狀況所以我是希望啦我們共同來努力啦"},{"start":6091.528,"end":6116.991,"text":"因為現在醫療院所的人力配置非常不容易而且你們很細,剛剛我說的這些有關勞動法上的規定都希望我們可以一起來努力把這個維護勞動法把它做好那這個會比能夠更好讓更多的醫療人力,尤其是護理人員他們願意加入我們榮總的行列以上,謝謝我們都有掌握,我們會持續邀請他們改善好,謝謝"},{"start":6124.114,"end":6145.289,"text":"謝謝接下來我們邀請沈博洋委員謝謝主席 也有請嚴主委 謝謝我們邀請主委"},{"start":6153.081,"end":6172.561,"text":"主委好主委好那這個在預算之前呢我有一個小問題是想問這個目前來講我們這個融中體系因為我們近幾年有這個韌性醫療整備那這個韌性醫療整備目前準備的狀況大概到什麼程度是不是可以跟國人說明一下"},{"start":6173.297,"end":6187.886,"text":"只有跟委员报告我们更容认主要是以全民防疫动员准备法来做这件事情包括了医政、药政还有传染病的防治以及国军医疗就军医局主席的这些动员准备"},{"start":6188.726,"end":6202.698,"text":"那么我们这些准备就包含了药政动员准备计划按照这个相关的管制办法来做我们包含了储备25项药品还有70项的胃材1350人份"},{"start":6204.56,"end":6221.948,"text":"那么这里面17项重要药品及13项的胃柴是由三个荣种从117年开始他们就额外增加储备了共计是两万五千人份平时我们的药品跟胃柴只维持两到三周库存量"},{"start":6222.668,"end":6246.415,"text":"那麼一到三級的管制藥品是維持一個月的庫存量那麼就暫時是按照衛福部還有各縣市衛生局的調配來持續做調整這是我們的防疫運行的準備好 謝謝那因為我覺得這個是很重要我覺得先跟國人說明一下那現在我就進入到一些比較預算細節的部分第一個就是這一個目前來講這個"},{"start":6248.413,"end":6272.819,"text":"中榮的這個執行率就是說因為我看這個執行率當然在113年的時候看起來也有不到九成的狀況但是不知道為什麼114年現在的一個執行率它上面是6.22我在想說是資料上的錯誤還是說是不是請中榮這邊可以說明一下就是2025年到8月為止中榮的這個執行率是不是有問題"},{"start":6275.413,"end":6303.432,"text":"是不是有什麼東西沒有寄到預算中心呢還是說對不起我們一直在積極推動智慧醫療而且是也投入很多的資金那但是這個決算的金額的計算確實是感覺我看起來是覺得比較奇怪一點對因為北榮大概大概五成九嘛然後呢高雄榮總有到八成多嘛對不對那中榮為什麼會到六點二這個在預算中心的資料"},{"start":6304.173,"end":6322.394,"text":"對 是不是可以了解一下因為我想說有沒有可能會是資料的錯誤啊或者什麼等等之類的那這個我再 之後我再繼續追問一下這一題可以嗎好 那接下來我想問這一個這個床位的問題就容家就是說這一個目前來講我們除了這個一般的這個照護之外"},{"start":6322.754,"end":6350.746,"text":"也有這個接受地方的委託安置那去年度一直到八月底為止這個接受地方委託安置的這個服務的量比前幾年有稍稍減少那當然我們照理說以整個台灣來講目前這個長照等等的需求是一直在往上升那我想知道這個接受地方委託安置有稍微減少是不是有什麼特殊的原因因為是照理說農家的量應該是有的"},{"start":6352.207,"end":6357.513,"text":"那為什麼是地方這一邊它的委託安置的量變少了嗎還是有什麼其他的原因"},{"start":6360.66,"end":6387.836,"text":"我也好我是救養處處長我跟您回報啊那個我們榮家16所榮家的總床位是8875床那目前總佔床率是80.4億那一般民眾資源共享的部分從106年開放一般民眾是5%現在已經提升到21%以上所以目前在佔比是增加的但是它的量看起來減少不知道為什麼會這個樣子"},{"start":6391.965,"end":6408.04,"text":"因為佔比是它佔所有的一個比例嘛對不對這個比例是逐步的在增加這個是好事因為我們畢竟一般民眾有這樣的需求那現在農家也有這樣的一個資源但為什麼地方政府的這一個委託安置這個量有減少是大概這兩年報告委員我們"},{"start":6411.583,"end":6440.901,"text":"跟地方政府這個零拖的部分是緊急安置我們總共有321床對只要政府地方有緊急需要的時候我們絕對開放這個床位是給的好那也有可能這幾年就是地方政府它的也有可能有其他的管道或什麼之類的這個我們不知道但是我想說這個可能要稍微釐清一下因為畢竟農家的資源在這一邊嘛對不對那這個除了原本的服務之外讓人民也都可以享受我覺得這是很重要的一件事就是有控制一些緊急安置的床位"},{"start":6442.541,"end":6467.185,"text":"另外剛剛有提到因為剛剛說大概占這一個所謂八成左右但是如果我們把它拆開來看的話可以看到有一些占床率可以到九成你看台北隆家大概就是六成這當然可能跟位置有點關係就是說不同的位置可能有不同的占床率目前有這個所謂的看到你們的報告裡面有講這個舒轉計畫因為畢竟有些地方的占床率比較低這個舒轉計畫目前執行的狀況如何"},{"start":6471.591,"end":6495.362,"text":"我們像都會區這裡面比較所列到的板橋榮家台南榮家這些占床率都比較高後住的人很多那我們也現在採取一個措施怎麼樣去舒展就希望他們在鄰近的榮家先去住將來他希望住的榮家如果有空床去他就優先進來就這樣來舒展來做調解台南榮家才可以到白河"},{"start":6495.902,"end":6521.551,"text":"那如果板橋仁家可以到台北仁家台北仁家站那裡像這樣子來做舒轉來調節現在目前採取這個策略對 因為我在想說就是連結到上一個問題就是說如果這個舒轉計畫執行成效可以越來越好的話那剛剛講的地方政府要委託啊等等之類因為你要抓那個比例嘛你也不能夠讓它爆掉啊這個時候能夠接受地方的這一個委託安置的這個量能一定又可以再往上提升啦所以這個舒轉計畫可能就再拜託我們再來盯一下這個狀況"},{"start":6523.232,"end":6544.048,"text":"剛剛鐘榮那個狀況預算中心那個數字到底是如何這個可能再了解一下了解一下好謝謝主委謝謝主席謝謝委員目前收到臨時提案共議案待會請黃建民委員質詢結束後進行處理那處理完畢後休息十分鐘那我們現在請林祖英委員"},{"start":6557.547,"end":6558.639,"text":"謝謝主席 有請主委"},{"start":6565.694,"end":6572.658,"text":"林委員好主委好我同樣的就是針對現在我們接下來就要審預算了那麼剛剛其實沈薄洋委員也有提到了就是有關於這個建構醫療韌性那麼其實我在報告上面其實是有看到也看到其實應該是說這樣講你們有做事但是報告上面沒有實際的看到你們到底如何的針對退府會跟各個"},{"start":6592.748,"end":6609.336,"text":"榮總建構醫療任性的相關的作為其實特佛轄下的三個總院從民國110年啟動了儲備戰時醫材其實你們就有做了一些工作甚至於呢其實我們需要給予掌聲的肯定跟鼓勵喔那麼"},{"start":6609.756,"end":6628.045,"text":"但是在預算配置上面其實我不知道為什麼交上來的預算給的卻是只是包括訓練、醫材等等那麼這樣子等於稍後我們再審預算下一次再安排審預算的時候其實你們做了這些事但是是沒有被知道的我會建議"},{"start":6629.987,"end":6638.912,"text":"應該必須把它呈現出來尤其是在報告上面那麼你看像剛剛其實委員們質詢的也都非常的細會看你們的細部質詢的狀況所以這是本席給的一個建議啦那細部的部分因為時間有限我要來追一個就是我之前其實在上個會期我質詢過的一個問題那就是在我們的所謂醫療冷鏈當中我們的幾間榮總的系統都使用了家裡大容"},{"start":6659.306,"end":6687.563,"text":"而我要再一次的提醒喔像昨天總統府召開的記者會就會發現中國是處心積慮的不論是文攻武嚇現在是在外交上面也限縮了賴清德總統的外交空間為什麼這三個非洲的國家不會同意我們的邦交的這個所謂雖然沒有邦交但是連航空權都被限制就是因為中國用經濟的方式脅迫非洲這三個國家"},{"start":6688.644,"end":6709.833,"text":"那為什麼我要帶到這一點那就是如果我們的公務預算公家的預算人民的納稅錢卻是用來養中國企業尤其是中國解放軍的企業我要提醒主委你也知道我一再質詢的就是這個部分因為我們如果把他養大養肥了他"},{"start":6710.873,"end":6731.122,"text":"錢一出去一轉手是對付我們所以有關於我去年十月就追蹤的有關於我們在榮總的各個院區所在醫療冷鏈上面跟中國尤其是解放軍簽署了軍民融合戰略合作協議這樣的一個中資我必須再提醒萬萬不可"},{"start":6735.524,"end":6763.205,"text":"希望各個院區要降低就算即便是廠商跟家裡大人簽約我要再次強調把中國的企業養肥了回來是拿我們人民的納稅錢槍口 炮口甚至於威脅是對準自己所以我要詢問一下我去年2025年10月質詢這個題目之後到現在各個院區到底相關的狀況如何"},{"start":6765.166,"end":6793.427,"text":"那個鳳林分院有80%那現在的狀況有降低嗎半年過去了報告委員謝謝委員關心這個議題提醒我們這麼重要一件事情自從你上次垂詢之後呢我們每一個總院跟分院都一直在注意這個事因為藥物採購在醫院是一個招標採購契約採購但是要去找什麼人來做物流我們當時真的不知道還好你的提醒所以現在我們新的招標契約嚴格規範"},{"start":6794.508,"end":6816.104,"text":"那現行的7月還沒有履行完的我們每一個廠商要跟他講你如果有任何關鍵節點運送過程倉儲位置透露這個秘密我們會做一些處分另外呢可以考慮以後要有切結書的承諾那但是等7月結束之後一定會把它做得更完善"},{"start":6816.954,"end":6828.88,"text":"好那為什麼包括像有一些是2026年年底才要換約比如說像蘇澳玉里是還沒有完成換約進度是要到2026年底12月這個可不可以讓我知道一下狀況熊院長玉里"},{"start":6842.711,"end":6851.317,"text":"蘇澳分院的話是115年也就是2026年的5月底會換約但是玉里分院是要預計到116年也就是2027年的12月底才換約這個約是什麼時候簽的玉里分院這個約是之前簽的我們現在正在檢討我們會盡快把這個合約做重新的議題"},{"start":6869.391,"end":6887.458,"text":"因為總院長是我說我會負起嚴格督導的責任所以我會去做一些特別的盤點好 剛剛這個衛明總院長有特別提到了第一是有關於細節包括守密的部分是絕對不能透露但是我要再次強調從剛剛前面我們講的所謂防衛韌性 城市防衛韌性等等的相關的演練去年演練之後發現了這個問題那麼我們就知道其實所有的危機 危險"},{"start":6897.142,"end":6913.916,"text":"都是你不知道他什麼時候會發生現在是平時所以他恐怕還會遵守但是如果真的由平轉戰的時候那麼他是效忠中華民國還是中華人民共和國其實這是非常危險的所以為什麼我在這裡一直要求就是至少榮總的系統要降低跟他們的簽約率那另外一個剛剛提到的竊結書的部分當然我也"},{"start":6924.284,"end":6934.517,"text":"同意就是一定要有多一些的把關那另外一個就是有關於我特別問到的就是御理分院為什麼到116年也就是2027年12月底才要換約這個部分我覺得時間拖太久了"},{"start":6943.388,"end":6955.521,"text":"從我去年十月到現在也半年了結果這個約我不確定你什麼時候簽下去的可是怎麼會這麼久然後好像放在那裡如果我不追問這件事情就沒有發生一樣我其實本來是希望你們給我一個一個的比例的進度因為經過半年了應該要下降才對"},{"start":6962.188,"end":6980.106,"text":"所以我想問一下顏主委這個最新的統計能不能給我跟我們委員會一份我希望是看到有比例的下降而不是本席質詢完之後半年之後聞風不動尤其是馬上新的城市任性的這個所謂的演習演練又要開始了"},{"start":6982.13,"end":7002.414,"text":"報告委員 這個表是2025十六天統計的回去之後會把最新的半況重新做一個調整統計完再送到委員那邊好 然後我也希望除了比例降低之外有廠商如果因為新的合約而無法跟動的不要因為沒有監督喔然後時間就一直放在那裡不動我相信還是可以有一些動作的"},{"start":7002.734,"end":7022.856,"text":"可以嗎?是,我們會有一些,剛剛除了陳院長報告的,把工程會的企業規範要履歷管理,把這放進去,然後醫療保密安全作為,相關的措施包含切解,都要做。好,謝謝,辛苦。謝謝主委。謝謝林楚瑩委員,接下來我們邀請王建斌委員,上台諮詢。"},{"start":7034.046,"end":7056.033,"text":"好謝謝主席我們有請嚴主委黃委員好主委早安主委主委您是軍人轉任那個退伏會主委嘛是那我想退伍軍人同胞遇到的問題無非就是養訓那養就是醫療照護訓就是就業訓練"},{"start":7060.014,"end":7075.663,"text":"那尤其對於這個中年離開軍體生涯的這些弟兄就訓練就對他們來講是非常的重要那我們退輔會在桃園一個執訓中心那主要就是做好這個溶件直接訓練技能檢定還有就業輔導工作但是退輔會內部"},{"start":7076.704,"end":7106.044,"text":"做這個退伍軍官兵這個參與訓練的這個概況啊跟這個性別的分析我們發現一件事就是參與訓練不管是男性或女性的這些退伍軍人他通訊處大多是集中在新北跟桃園那顯然就是說我們退伍弟兄因為家庭環境跟居住地的關係他會選擇離居住比較近的地方來參加訓練那所以非居住在桃園跟新北這兩個地區參與的退伍弟兄就"},{"start":7106.764,"end":7117.171,"text":"比較少那主委本席在上一次約會報告的時候就有建議說我們推幅會在推動職業訓練應該跟我們勞動部還有地方政府來共同來推動"},{"start":7118.39,"end":7135.661,"text":"那最主要就是讓這些弟兄可以就近的訓練在參加執訓不用大老遠的跑去桃園那今天我們退伏會的報告一段報告裡面有提到說要提供給退伍的軍事官弟兄多元培訓的管道以自身的需求選擇合適訓練課程來提升他的職場技能"},{"start":7139.383,"end":7154.132,"text":"然後進而促進在地的就業不過本席並沒有看到我們退伍會如果跟勞動部地方政府跟民間企業來共同合作來推動執訓的這些細部成果的資料那主委本席要提醒就是退伍弟兄"},{"start":7155.092,"end":7184.347,"text":"就本來就不是那麼容易那我想不要再那麼花這些金錢跟時間大老遠跑去桃園授訓我們應該結合地方的一些資源讓在各縣市裡面他可以確實到在地授訓我想這才是真的確實協助到這些弟兄那如果因為你特殊的課程必須到其他的縣市我們退伏隊應該給予他相關的補助嘛讓退伏的弟兄在結訓之後就可以立刻就位主委這可以做得到嗎主委指導委員我請就位處長跟您說明一下"},{"start":7185.697,"end":7215.001,"text":"委員好我是就學建業處處長跟您報告沒有錯委員剛講的我們的執訓的政策包括就業政策都是在地參訓在地就業那事實上要跟委員報告過去三年我們除了桃園的自辦訓練以外其實我們花東地區跑到那邊去受訓的因為我們有遠地的都免費住宿其實過去三年我們有266個人去那邊參訓有100個是台東的人那當然我們很多還有在"},{"start":7215.601,"end":7221.683,"text":"外訓練也就是說在花東地區特別在台東地區我們在過去四年其實都有開班也培訓了153個人更重要您剛有提到我對於全國有一萬五千多個班隊我在花東地區其實在過去的三年裡面我們也有533個人去受訓台東也有165個人"},{"start":7241.349,"end":7265.96,"text":"還有勞動部有兩個分署在那個地方每年都會開這個24個班600個這個數額其實對於花東地區的一個數量基本上我們的調查應該是可以滿足的那因為勞動部來講他也沒有針對跨域的一個資訊來補助今天所以我們目前我們會去關注這個議題 以上我想跟跨部會來合作那也請會後"},{"start":7267.28,"end":7293.044,"text":"把這些相關跟各機關共同推動這個在地訓練的這個統計資料給本席辦公室讓本席了解到我們這個相關職業訓練的後續進行的情況另外我要提醒你要請教主委主委你擔任退服會主委之後有沒有到台東去巡視過相關退服會的業務台東我去過有喔農場還有相關的農家農夫住都去過"},{"start":7293.784,"end":7318.971,"text":"農夫住有 農場也有那本席來跟你就討論就農場這些事情我們的農場的服務品質的部分那來東部旅遊的遊客通常他就會選擇在花蓮或台東晚上住一晚然後隔天選擇北上或南下這個是到花東旅遊的一個模式那台東的經濟產業裡面觀光業占了非常大的一部分那我想只要旅遊的體驗好不好"},{"start":7319.871,"end":7344.443,"text":"會對地方影響在發展旅遊產業的影響非常大那 住宿方不方便 訂房方不方便 交通方不方便這個都影響到旅客願不願意來台東旅遊的一些意願那本市有說到退府會所屬的農場近三年來 我們的遊憶區的營收下滑遊客住宿率都在減少那當然退府會的理由是說因為疫情後 國人都出國"},{"start":7345.163,"end":7360.313,"text":"那加上地震、風災這些極端氣候種種因素所以國人比較不願意安排到山林來旅遊那這些本席都可以理解但是在這樣的情況之下我們應該利用這些時間把我們基礎的一些建設還有服務來提升來做好來做準備"},{"start":7361.354,"end":7385.167,"text":"那推幅會議說要優化我們的呃旅宿環境提升服務品質要在這近四年要在三高三個高商的農場也就是我們福壽山清淨還有這武嶺要投入大概十億元來做刻板的整修那後續要再投入大概至少四點四億元但是本期看池上的這個台東農場有沒有沒有分配到相關的這些優化的資源的經費"},{"start":7386.167,"end":7410.6,"text":"那明明台東農場他就坐用花東縱谷跟博望大道這個美觀美麗的景觀可是卻沒有獲得這樣的資源的分配那不只如此那我們也發現台東農場下面有幾個據點都還在整修當中像慈善會館台東農場的官網顯示不開放訂房但是我們在民間的訂房平台在booking.com上可以訂得到"},{"start":7411.46,"end":7439.769,"text":"那東和農場他其實從去年3月就開始顯示一直在維修當中那這兩個據點其實在台東的旅遊上都是非常重要的觀光景點那也可以說台東旅遊上遊客來都必經的幾個地區那我想但是在這上面我看到這些包括在訂房上還有整個維修上我認為這不是一個及格的一個狀況那我想這對台東的觀光影響也很大"},{"start":7440.569,"end":7447.661,"text":"那另外我們還有發現民眾的反應說受風會館是把這些網路訂房都取消了只能打電話"},{"start":7449.211,"end":7471.917,"text":"我們直接回到伯傑時代這樣子那我們退輔會你意思說要提升品質然後你一方面服務品質其實不是這麼的便利那這個部分是不是請我解問題來請教主委啦對就是說第一個就是說我們三高農場可以獲得龐大的資源來改善營運那為什麼台東農場這次沒有被納入那相關的規劃的標準是什麼"},{"start":7472.717,"end":7498.893,"text":"那第二個台東農場的官網什麼時候可以改善讓遊客可以方便的訂房那第三個東和休閒農莊這些整修的據點進度為什麼會拖這麼久還沒完成有沒有明確的完工時間點那第四個未來這些據點整修完之後是不是跟我們的收工會館一樣要建立一個透明公開的訂房機制還是維持現在的模式打電話來訂那這部分是不是可以先來回應一下"},{"start":7499.073,"end":7523.541,"text":"那我跟委員報告台東方面的觀光這部分多半是委外經營所以在我們預算裡面我也沒有看到那目前經營狀況慈善慈善會館已經完成招商跟整建那二月份迎取的旅館登記證在七月會開始營業那東河龍光是四月一號完成招商在一百一十八年四月開始營業那剛剛委員所提到的還有受風雲"},{"start":7524.495,"end":7538.142,"text":"事業主事長跟你說明我要直視事業主事長董事長的名下委員報告有關壽豐農場這部分他的網頁還是可以訂購的所以說這個資訊是完整的所以跟委員做以上報告好的"},{"start":7540.612,"end":7554.084,"text":"包委員我再補充一下我這台東那種廠長有關收風廢紡部分因為現在配合那個內政部的那個收風的整個都市計畫變更那現在在爭取旅遊服務區的改變以上先跟委員報告好 謝謝包廠長"},{"start":7556.209,"end":7566.12,"text":"主委雖然說我們委外有些基礎設施我想還是要投入去經營因為你畢竟投入這麼多的經費我想也能夠平均來分配一下東部這塊的資源我們會檢討相關的資源"},{"start":7570.945,"end":7591.762,"text":"我想本席認為說越是在挑戰的時候我們越應該要投入更多的資源那讓資源能夠重新的來分配平均那服務也應該要更進步那這對未來不管是在整個我們退服會的經營上面或者是整個台東的觀光我想都是雙贏那也希望這本席提到幾個問題能夠主委這邊能夠來協助是我們會全力協助謝謝主委謝謝主席"},{"start":7608.849,"end":7627.879,"text":"我們現在處理臨時提案 請議事人員宣讀提案臨時提案 鑒於中華人民共和國以外交與經濟協和手段迫使第三國臨時撤銷我國元首出訪專機飛航許可 嚴重打壓我國國際空間更干涉他國內政違反國際慣例 破壞區域現狀"},{"start":7631.226,"end":7642.878,"text":"我國總統出訪友邦視我國對外行使外交權利之主權作為中國此舉已違反聯合國憲章國家主權平等與不干涉內政原則1970年年大"},{"start":7645.526,"end":7670.172,"text":"第2625號決議所明文禁止之強制干預芝加哥公約所確立之國際民航秩序與非歧視原則以及維也納外交國關係公約第40條之過境保障精神構成對國際規則為基礎之秩序之公然挑戰中華人民共和國對我國之系統性打壓已非個案"},{"start":7670.792,"end":7699.487,"text":"本委員會作為國會監督外交與國防事務之專責委員會針對中華人民共和國脅迫第三國撤銷我國元首飛航相關許可之出炮行徑予以強烈譴責並堅定支持政府採取積極措施持續拓展國家外交空間捍衛我國家主權及國際生存權利且要求外交部應透過駐外管處及國際組織管道將本事件列入"},{"start":7700.223,"end":7724.968,"text":"國際民航組織及其他多邊機制之關注項目並積極爭取理念相繼民主夥伴之聲援與具體行動提案人委員陳冠廷王定宇林楚英王逸川沈伯陽陳俊宇羅美林等宣讀完畢那我們先請提案委員說明就是"},{"start":7729.641,"end":7748.698,"text":"我簡單做個提案說明這一次由於是用這種經濟的方式去迫使其他第三國去撤銷飛航許可因為飛航許可這件事情在國際上是屬於這種主權這很明顯的就是中國直接介入到這個所謂的主權行為"},{"start":7749.598,"end":7768.913,"text":"那就像剛剛我們在提案裡面這個已經不管是聯合國憲章裡面講的這個主權問題之外還包含在芝加哥公約裡面所確立的這個國際民航秩序還有非歧視的原則所以無論如何我覺得這是我們外交上非常大的一個阻礙那針對這一個中國的打壓我們認為應該要給予這個最強烈的一個譴責以上"},{"start":7781.088,"end":7783.424,"text":"請問在場委員有意見許曉欣委員"},{"start":7784.387,"end":7809.033,"text":"我是針對這個程序的部分那我對於這個內容上面來說那我確實認為這個賴清德總統能夠出訪友邦那本來就是這是我們的友邦本來就要去那中間如果遇到任何有這種被打壓或是不公平的那我想這樣的一個臨時提案他是可能因為具有這個時效性所以在今天提出來不過因為我也要提就是說今天是退府會的這個報告嘛"},{"start":7811.454,"end":7839.64,"text":"那所以說外交部的相關人員沒有在現場那我們一般來說處理臨時提案的時候那上面的一些文字有沒有都會再詢問一下相關的這個部會那他們有沒有什麼需要修正文字細節的部分然後大家在有共識之後再通過這樣子的一個提案那過去網歷好像都是這樣處理的所以我在這邊也想要請教一下就是說我對這個案子沒有任何的意見但是我想要請教一下就是說是不是本案那"},{"start":7840.12,"end":7860.117,"text":"到時候也讓外交部這邊然後能夠了解一下如果他們有任何的一些可能文字啊或什麼一些細節內容要修正的那也有一個機會讓他們再做一個表達好那其他的部分我沒有任何意見謝謝好謝謝許曉欣委員接下來我們請林楚英委員"},{"start":7864.458,"end":7883.265,"text":"謝謝主席首先我要強調的今天這個不是一個所謂的執行案或者是一個修正案或者是希望行政部門作為改進這是一個譴責案今天譴責的對象也不是外交部我們今天譴責的是中共利用"},{"start":7884.706,"end":7911.627,"text":"經濟的脅迫導致我們國家的元首無法到友邦去進行正式的國事訪問那麼我覺得在這個部分其實我昨天第一時間我看到除了我們民進黨發出了譴責之外事實上我也看到了包括國民黨以及民眾黨其實也都一致的站在國家為主的這樣的一個情況底下那我要再一次強調沒錯今天是一個退府會的夜報所以說"},{"start":7913.704,"end":7935.669,"text":"對於退府會來講他不是我們譴責的對象同樣的我要再一次的強調這是一個譴責案那麼這個譴責案代表的是身為國防外交的委員你站在國家在外交上受到打壓在國防上面國際上面的生存空間受到壓力的時候你的立場是什麼"},{"start":7936.289,"end":7952.822,"text":"事實上這一個雖然是由我們民進黨的委員發起其實我也希望在外交委員會當中不論是國民黨的委員或是民眾黨的委員此刻是展現我們對於國家的忠誠對於國家元首的支持以及對於中共惡霸行徑的一個反應"},{"start":7955.524,"end":7966.973,"text":"所以我認為這個文字上沒有任何的問題如果有問題的人就是想要利用所謂的程序惡意的讓這個所謂的譴責案沒有辦法曝光好"},{"start":7972.442,"end":7999.845,"text":"第一個我希望我們在國防外交委員會所有的同仁不分黨派一起連署我剛才一直聽到大家都說沒有問題一起連署因為在內部我們怎麼樣競爭我們對外只有一個國家民選的元首他是憲政機關總統這個職務本身在憲法是憲政機關不是所謂的人而已那當民選的元首出訪代表的國家跟人民"},{"start":8000.919,"end":8005.203,"text":"面對這樣子的突襲式這個是很典型的叫時間點突擊的方式"},{"start":8006.127,"end":8030.273,"text":"那我們應該一致對外 展現團結 這第一點第二個 這三個國家 塞西爾 摩里西斯跟馬達加斯加島這三個國家陷入中國的債務陷阱被脅迫 事實上這一個overflight permit是在幾個禮拜前就取得數週前就申請取得 而他們卻因為國家的債務陷阱"},{"start":8030.973,"end":8054.725,"text":"被脅迫在出發前12個小時把你取消掉進行配合中國進行這樣的經濟脅迫下的外交動作那我們這件事情唯一該被譴責的就是中國這三個陷入債務陷阱配合他進行這種敵意做法的一個國家而剛才歐盟發言人正式聲援台灣也認為利用這種所謂的"},{"start":8058.507,"end":8081.441,"text":"空中飛越權來進行政治操作是極度的危險而且不負責任美國國會也發表了譴責這個事件當別國當朋友在聲援你的時候我們自己內部的聲援不應該有任何的理由或藉口去阻撓他那所以在這件事情上我希望我們委員會"},{"start":8082.802,"end":8097.8,"text":"不僅做出無意義的通過我們也希望在場的在野黨委員不管是哪一個政黨我們一起參加還是那一句話國家只有一個我們在這邊政黨競爭努力就是努力的幫這個國家更好嘛"},{"start":8098.717,"end":8123.977,"text":"努力的想執政嘛努力的想要把對方變在野黨自己執政讓國家更好嘛當國家面對這樣子中國的打壓的時候我們應該一致那最後我要提醒所謂中國的善意你要嘛就是太笨被他騙要不然就配合他在騙台灣中國哪有善意事情不分大小全面的打壓毫無止盡的打壓"},{"start":8125.339,"end":8145.686,"text":"我上一趟有陪總統飛到斯瓦帝尼亞這有潛力的 你這樣打人有什麼意思呢所以中國把所有東西當武器不僅僅是政治軍事它連經濟 你跟它互動 它把它變成武器看看那三個島國怎麼被它脅迫的這是一個非常典型的介入他國內政"},{"start":8146.986,"end":8173.999,"text":"不僅影響我們中華民國台灣的內政也影響那三個島國的內政而中國越是這樣做我們外交本來就困難我們不會因為困難就放棄讓我們2300萬人走向國際他越打壓我們越努力那台灣跟斯瓦帝尼國王的邦誼會更堅定我們也祝福他58歲生日快樂建國40週年就值40週年快樂那我們希望這個案子可以大家一起來連署 謝謝"},{"start":8194.963,"end":8205.769,"text":"如果在場委沒有意見的話那是不是本提案就照案通過好 謝謝那本提案照案通過那接下來我們休息十分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":8219.478,"end":8220.339,"text":"白大神笑"},{"start":8251.274,"end":8254.364,"text":"鸡血液如果都是这样的就变得很奇怪了"},{"start":8257.362,"end":8261.785,"text":"我們榮總是國家級的醫學中心本來就是輔導會 輔導會培養出來的本來就是 要面對歷史台大是服務企業 不是醫院國家級的醫學中心"},{"start":8285.538,"end":8288.404,"text":"謝謝觀賞"},{"start":8867.028,"end":8883.662,"text":"好我們繼續開會接下來我們邀請徐巧欣委員上台質詢謝謝主席我們請嚴德發主委好嗎你好我們請主委"},{"start":8890.284,"end":8908.633,"text":"主委好那剛才呢也有其他的委員在關心這個上校以上的這個職女輔助的進度那我剛也有聽了您的這個說明了首先呢要肯定我們原主委在這個議題上面那一直為我們的這一些這個這個退職的人員那不斷的努力喔"},{"start":8909.053,"end":8924.871,"text":"但過程當中確實也會有一些辛苦的地方那我想是這樣子就是剛才其他委員也有問了我想再問更細一點就是說因為我看到卓榮他的院長他昨天呢有非常清晰的提出就是在"},{"start":8925.952,"end":8944.714,"text":"軍人、警消或是其他整體的公務人員的部分那行政院這邊會去做一個調整然後就配合我們在立法院有三讀通過的這些法律然後讓立法院這邊的一些法律案跟行政院現在目前的實施上面來說不要有太多的衝突"},{"start":8945.575,"end":8973.191,"text":"那我會比較擔心是說因為這個案子呢比較小然後呢金額也比較少那他被忽略掉了所以我想要請問一下就是說從卓榮泰院長昨天講到今天喔那這個上校以上的子女補助的案子有沒有被列在行政院他們總體而言就是我們政黨協商就有談到了這半年內要提出一個總體的這個方案的裡面的其中一個項目"},{"start":8974.831,"end":8988.21,"text":"謝謝委員關心報完這個案子我們已經努力了八年了從去年把八個半個送到院裡面院裡面通知我們說要在周圓考量公教那麼我們就配合辦理但這段時間我們很積極的"},{"start":8990.387,"end":9016.012,"text":"月管處長跟院裡面月管處長對口那副主委找副主委找行政院相關層級的我也是一樣到行政院去繼續努力一直都在努力那我們這個月12號重新又發那個文重新又呈一個文就是希望能夠盡快恢復那昨天我跟原市長碰面昨天是大院會的預算審查坐我旁邊我還再次的"},{"start":9017.065,"end":9043.584,"text":"跟他報告請他幫忙因為教育補助費是人總我跟人事長再次協調目前一切進度都正常我只能由委員報告到這裡都OK那因為是這樣子就是說剛剛有委員問的時候有提到就是說我們的這個經費上面來說的話其實是有可以運用的預算沒有問題可以運用的嘛所以說我們但他會被列在哪一筆啊"},{"start":9044.449,"end":9062.023,"text":"退出幾戶那這一筆的話我們就要也會注意就是說我們到時候在審查的時候我們也會注意那要讓這一筆他是能夠afford就是說整體的這個規劃的因為我們的想法很簡單就是卓院長這邊有談到了說這半年內會盤點整體的軍公教的這個權益的部分那當然我們大多數人談到的會是這個軍人的這個家籍"},{"start":9070.529,"end":9091.299,"text":"然後自願意的加急還有包含是說可能這個退休的這個警消人員的所得替代率但我就很擔心說漏了我們這一項這個不小心漏了我們這一項所以謝謝我們主委積極的爭取那我想在審查預算的時候我們也會盡我們的全力來支持那但是就是要拜託那一定要讓這個案子也在"},{"start":9092.379,"end":9120.816,"text":"評估的總項目裡面最後結果如何我不知道你們盡力爭取但是在現在這半年內所評估的這個總體來說的話他要被能夠納進去因為他也是軍警校的一環所以我們比較常講的是大的項目就是在講說軍人的加薪案跟警校的所得替代率案常常會忘記我們還有一個上校與校的子女補助費的這個部分我希望這個案子也能夠順利被納入行政院的討論當中對 我們要繼續保持密切聯繫"},{"start":9121.496,"end":9142.342,"text":"嗯好的那這個再來就是我們要講到這個有關於我們的榮民喔那包含他們可能志願役服滿10年以上啊因為作戰或是這個公治病傷的這個有一些傷害啊或者是說像這樣子的一些這個榮民那我覺得呢我們是要多去協助的"},{"start":9142.742,"end":9158.261,"text":"那剛才也有這個委員有提到關於這個輔導會有職無職的這個榮民及軍警消補助的部分那我們可以看到的是有職榮民的部分呢在國軍醫院裡面的部分負擔裡面是沒有的"},{"start":9158.601,"end":9178.513,"text":"然後不立議院是沒有的我這個剛剛有人問過了但是我想我覺得用一張表格來講會更加的清楚那我想請問一下這個部分那當然你們有3月30號退府會含送行政院4月1號行政院這個複製退府會那轉達各部會的意見包含國防部跟總計處等等"},{"start":9179.514,"end":9207.693,"text":"我們大概要到什麼時候才能夠比較清楚這些有職榮民因為他們是中高齡的勞工了那多半很多人慢性病長期需要就醫那榮總離他們可能很遠那為了要省下這個醫療費用的話他要請假跨區奔波就醫延誤治療還會被扣薪水這個其實是我們收到的這個懲請那我認為托福會是非常有心要幫忙解決的所以我想要請問一下這個部分接下來接下來"},{"start":9208.373,"end":9213.961,"text":"我們大概會用什麼樣的一個進度就比較具體的進度去把這個案子能夠走下去"},{"start":9215.622,"end":9242.58,"text":"謝謝委員我個人認為有職農民到軍醫院他是更有需要因為當初當軍人的時候都在軍醫院做體檢所有的資料都在軍醫院裡面是非常完整的所以有職農民到軍醫院我們現在也繼續徵詢那我們的文已經送到行政院對就是因為我們回到上一章給大家看一下已經完成相關的一些就是您說這個退服會有職農民在國軍醫院裡面沒有部分負擔補助這個部分嘛對不對"},{"start":9244.121,"end":9268.641,"text":"去年九月是完成了榮院的一個補助都完成了那現在我們這階段是推到軍醫院所以推到軍醫院目前都正常所以軍醫院的這個核准下來了嗎現在目前還沒有但我們上個禮拜還在跟院裡面各處在協調那我們大概在什麼時候會比較能夠確認說他是有還是沒有當然我們也很急我們也希望能夠盡快我們真的盡快能夠下院"},{"start":9269.622,"end":9296.329,"text":"那未來如果軍醫院能夠過了之後那對於部立醫院的部分我們有沒有考慮再進一步的提出來是 我們後面可能繼續再去爭取好 那我們在這個退服會爭取的過程當中有任何需要我們協助的地方那可以跟我們說喔是 謝謝委員對 因為我最後補充跟大家補充一下就是現在呢 少子化所以當兵的人也少那麼呢 這個但我們國軍有很大的這個招募的需求"},{"start":9296.949,"end":9322.882,"text":"那招募員在前面招募他們也很辛苦那主要呢他們除了看一般平常的薪資之外那你一個年輕人要選擇要不要去個工作那除了看這個工作薪資也會考慮他退休以後的福利待遇是否有符合這份工作他應該要有的譬如說像很多其他國家像是韓國或是其他國家他們是對於退伍的軍人是有很多的保障"},{"start":9323.382,"end":9342.27,"text":"那這一塊退幅會很努力在做可是我不希望因為單位小或者是它是已經退休了我們不應該因為退休了之後好像就變成它視為比較不重要的我們只在乎在職的而不在乎退休的因為如果這樣子失衡的話就會使在前線招募的人他們也有困難因為我們在選擇一個行業的時候我不會只看我現在能夠領多少"},{"start":9346.112,"end":9366.929,"text":"我也會看我20年就要退伍了那我退伍以後我的轉職路線怎麼辦我也沒有一些相關的福利跟補助這也是為他們考量的一個這個項目所以我覺得反過來講就是我們退伍會做得好我們退伍會能夠被上級機關重視那他對於在前線招募軍人的這些招募員來講是一大福利"},{"start":9368.93,"end":9379.516,"text":"所以用這樣子去想的話其實退輔會的整個重要性都上來了所以非常謝謝我們園主委的努力那未來有任何需要協助的部分我們都會繼續為榮民發聲謝謝謝謝委員 指導好 我們謝謝徐小軍委員接下來我們邀請楊瓊英委員"},{"start":9396.692,"end":9400.861,"text":"謝主席 楊秋瑩發言 邀請主委請主委"},{"start":9405.805,"end":9425.391,"text":"主委好辛苦了我們來討論醫療人員的議題那首先我要發言之前要先給我們所有農民醫院的院長所帶領的團隊要謝謝他們因為我們農民醫院的確為國家付出很多的貢獻這個貢獻是他們用體力"},{"start":9428.652,"end":9450.639,"text":"用家庭的時間去換取的因為我們唯一一個最優良的就是不能拒絕病人這一點是本人非常非常的感謝所以我們來看到因為護理人力的一個短缺跟這個關船的壓力但是現在我們各個榮民總醫院都是逆勢而行而且大成功"},{"start":9452.179,"end":9470.565,"text":"那所以呢我就以我在中部地區台中籠總台中籠總的部分呢去年他們招募的護理人員是這個總共有560人他的一個報道率是6成多他的留職率是9成5"},{"start":9471.738,"end":9486.332,"text":"留職率 留任率能夠九成五這不簡單那當然中榮比較好的就是他找得到地方像北榮 高雄榮總 屏東他們也希望我們有這個托兒所托兒所將近有220個小朋友"},{"start":9487.424,"end":9509.062,"text":"還是不足但是至少有這個量體那這樣子整個的配套能夠讓這些從業人員能夠安心下來這非常重要但是每一年這一屆院長還是很緊張他們還要到大專院校去去護理學校去招募比如說像我們的鐘榮他去年560人今年他至少要有400個人"},{"start":9511.03,"end":9531.522,"text":"這樣子才能夠穩住這一些不缺的就像北龍也不缺那大家一起努力來做那當然各自醫院有各自的保守啦有他自己的方法我就以中龍來講他自主的排班這一點我很贊同因為我經常在這裡了解"},{"start":9532.711,"end":9549.685,"text":"病房的部分他能夠由資深的護理師他們自己來調整這個對他們的家庭來講是幫助很大每一家醫院都有每一家醫院他們的方法所以如果你看留職率就知道留任率是九成五以上這個了不得"},{"start":9550.305,"end":9577.92,"text":"但是各個醫院必須自負盈虧啊他還是要想辦法現在我們有一個問題我要率先請主委我們自己龍總自己來做也就是比如說中榮他們一天的這個出院的人那麼多出院之後護理師必須要去做銜接尤其長照的居家的這個3.0居家照護的那這些護理師還不算在我們的這一些喔那在這樣情況之下"},{"start":9579.15,"end":9589.923,"text":"未來這個角度這個角色是越來越重以中榮來講我們現在離院的要去協助他的只有4個護理師啊那雖然我們有2628個護理人員啊"},{"start":9596.158,"end":9612.607,"text":"但是這個部分呢4個那另外呢居家的部分我們12個這是兩不得的因為衛福部還沒有在做基金的一個協助所以我提出的這個問題也就是長照機構現在大家重視在集中度"},{"start":9613.547,"end":9631.188,"text":"的這個部分但是我們知道龍總醫院跟其他的醫院私人院所也好跟台大他們比較不相同的是我們的年齡層平均值病患會高一點而且我們越來越常受所以居家照護的部分是必要的"},{"start":9632.029,"end":9655.344,"text":"所以像最近他們四個也希望給副院長這邊再申請兩個都要准他們願意做都了不得了雖然你要多付一點成本但是這個是衛福部主委這是衛福部現在在整個長照機構裡頭的護理師人員的銜接在居家他還沒有再做這一塊的津貼補助"},{"start":9656.656,"end":9685.283,"text":"所以本期我個人認為主委我們可以率先來做你的醫療作業基金可以協助給我們的這個這個個院我們來做一個sample做一個範本讓衛福部也加緊腳步來做啊這樣子整個才能夠銜接上來啊要不然他離院之後他也沒有人好好的去告訴他那整個只有做半套個人認為這是不夠的主委你的看法呢"},{"start":9686.243,"end":9712.879,"text":"謝謝委員的指導對我們總院的各項的肯定我們各總院其實都是朝向友善職場包含委員剛剛講的這些護理師他的工作的量怎麼樣去調節我想各總院都會針對剛剛委員所指導的他們會再針對居家或長道這塊再做一個你率先來做你支持他們你不是只有嘴巴支持他們絕對支持你預算要支持他們"},{"start":9714.72,"end":9734.036,"text":"因為這個小錢但是是給我們在第一線的護理人員是最大的一個鼓勵也給病患的家屬啊他很安心那你也會跑比這個衛福部還更快長照室那邊還要更快當然不是說比誰快慢啦而是說社會的面向已經必須"},{"start":9735.177,"end":9747.842,"text":"因為我在博士班的時候我非常的重視這一塊我覺得我們可以率先來做可以嗎 主委同意那你們好好地去研擬那接下來我還要講各大醫院裡頭最傷腦筋的是什麼"},{"start":9749.008,"end":9763.648,"text":"停車場 停車格 停車格周榮還率先有一個趴車的趴車的 是全國第一個嘛 是不是啊那第一個 可是只能趴多少人趴50台 趴100台 趴車的付100塊 就趴"},{"start":9766.688,"end":9779.162,"text":"那問題是量體不夠啊所以在這個中隆我要給主委說明中隆旁邊有一塊戲庭酒停車場酒你要全力專案支持它"},{"start":9780.285,"end":9802.703,"text":"因為呢 私人的土地啊 可是它黏在旁邊 它是停車場解決停車的問題 唯一解決停車的問題因為你現在的量體 不到五分之一啊所以我今天進入到院區來 我轉了 欸 你給我收的是停車費耶可是我轉了 我繞了一個鐘頭還找不到一個車位那這個一個鐘頭要不要算錢啊 當然算錢啦"},{"start":9803.323,"end":9825.814,"text":"可是消費者說我又沒停車我引擎一直在動我一直在找停車格所以從根源來解決中隆的西停九在這旁邊因為它現在第三醫療中心又少了200個停車格那我們更傷腦筋每一個選民不夠我轉了一個多鐘頭跑進去診間的時候我又跳號了"},{"start":9827.134,"end":9850.289,"text":"又過號了那怎麼辦呢所以我們也你說的友善環境啊針對於中隆停車格我相信北隆也一樣啊高雄隆總也一樣啊屏東也一樣啊因為它已經有專案有這個案子我請主委來專案來支持好不容易可以找到這個土地但是要錢一定要解決這個問題共同開發是不是成立一個專案"},{"start":9852.569,"end":9880.798,"text":"我們會全力協助中榮全力協助嘛好好來做這個一定可以真正的去紓解因為再不然我們職子中心起來那個第三醫療中心又起來我缺的停車場停車格更多更多都打結了好不好全力協助中榮專案來協助嘛好謝謝那這個請院長都請回那最後一個議題也就是我們非常非常努力的一個事情"},{"start":9881.792,"end":9899.442,"text":"你們在4月9號開始農民照護數位轉型平台本人非常贊成我個人非常贊成你整合了整個醫療端服務端你的個案端還有家屬端的資料透過APP來進行跨域的一個共管這個非常好整個醫療的一個"},{"start":9900.743,"end":9929.061,"text":"保健照護服務以及健康的一個檢查資料進一步能夠去把這些風險呢 預測模型哇 這個非常的讚喔所以本席要請教我們過去 現在你這個政策就是說以前是被動式的被動式的來照顧現在是主動的來照顧喔那在這樣子一個情況之下你的整合照顧我所稱的目的就是要依照合一 是不是啊"},{"start":9930.701,"end":9952.246,"text":"依照合一就是讓我們的人民病患農民可以安心嘛這很重要所以主委你們目前的建制情況究竟是如何因為你4月9號宣布那麼你們的KPI到底是怎麼樣你有沒有去計算你如果這個政策下去你預估你可以降低多少的就醫次數跟醫療的這個成本"},{"start":9952.868,"end":9976.655,"text":"請說明這個系統我們準備今年7月它是一個啟動的一個元年就是7月份正式啟動在7月之前我們的系統現在剛剛委員講的四個系統已經完成了這裡面四個端已經完成了現在各容服務處是執行單位服務照顧19個處遍佈全台灣所以他們是執行單位"},{"start":9977.495,"end":9999.375,"text":"那麼他們要自己驗證那這裡面驗證我跟他們指導最重要就是你的照護端照護的人力夠不夠因為每一個孤獨老可能服務對象都不同這個非常重要都不同所以這些照護的照護網夠不夠盡量多像零拖員啊里長啊或者是送餐啊或者是社工都要夠所以照護員盡量去擴充"},{"start":10001.337,"end":10014.999,"text":"那醫療端比較單純就是總院總院的醫生或是各款師是這樣子然後這段時間到七月之前都要做這件事情希望盡量擴充把這個量能做到最大然後我們七月份就開始要做全面的推動"},{"start":10015.854,"end":10041.552,"text":"所以我們目前就是建制四端已經建制完成現在在做農耗以及人力的一個統合那醫院院所當然是沒問題我們就全力來支持所以我個人還要請你做一件事情也就是我們有一個政策之後呢那你的KPI必須要出來誠如剛剛本席所說的你預估我這麼做我多久時間我應該可以達到"},{"start":10044.074,"end":10053.081,"text":"怎麼樣的這個就醫的次數可以怎麼樣減少那醫療成本大概可以減少多少我覺得這個從源頭來做是效果非常的好"},{"start":10056.029,"end":10080.878,"text":"高雄市起步比較早我們以高雄市來做了前面第一劑的一個檢討做了之後跟第一劑做了之後跟去年去比較他是就整個服務隊上去門診的次數是有減少因為依照合一次數減少那醫療的資源也比之前要節省這兩個效果已經有出來了但是我是請我們各容服處"},{"start":10081.758,"end":10097.187,"text":"全面的再做一個交叉的驗證對 交叉再提出你的KPI目標出來是有效果的是有效果的 謝謝是 謝謝委員好 謝謝楊瓊英委員接下來請陳冠廷委員你好 我們先請主委好好 主委請"},{"start":10115.7,"end":10141.758,"text":"教委好 主委好 主委也是軍人 那也是農民那其實今天我們做了一個決議那主要是跟我國的總統要出訪的時候受到中共的這種惡意的干擾那我必須要強調 這個中共每一分對我國外交的孤立我們就多一倍對我們國防的投入 被我們國防的投資這就是我們最好的一個繁殖的方式"},{"start":10142.438,"end":10171.804,"text":"如果他們不讓我們在外交上面走出去那我們就用國防上面來強力去建軍讓我們自己更有能力來對抗抵抗中共的各種的這種侵擾那第二個部分我要跟這個朱薇來談一下我們的農民的部分朱薇知道我們農民的平均年齡大概是幾歲嗎中位數或者是平均年齡有沒有相關的資訊大概的歲數就好了我們不用精準的數字"},{"start":10174.77,"end":10177.594,"text":"66歲這個數字可能是平均但是其實我們可以發覺到在近年"},{"start":10190.054,"end":10209.371,"text":"那越來越多的退伍的軍人他的有年輕化的趨勢有時候在我國高中求學的階段的時候我們講到農民的時候都是講到農民伯伯阿公那種感覺都是八九十歲七八十歲的那種印象其實不斷的在一年一年的年輕化這個狀況是應該是很明顯的應該沒有錯嘛"},{"start":10212.353,"end":10240.941,"text":"那也就是說這些未來從以前的老年的農民會走向壯年的農民甚至會變成中年的農民會越來越多所以未來他們再就業再投入在這個產業甚至是重回軍旅的可能性越來越高特別是在最近我們看到說在對這個軍中的這種職務上面的薪資的提高我已經有聽到至少在我們的辦公室我們在家裡的辦公室其實基本上都是"},{"start":10241.841,"end":10262.976,"text":"軍人退役的大概有快要到六成到七成都是在隔壁的憲民隊還沒有退役就準備要來我們這個辦公室那我們看到說這些這些同仁們他們也有跟我們強調到說發覺到說最近軍中的這種薪資越來結構開始在調整之後他們也想要來回應我想請教一下"},{"start":10264.464,"end":10279.958,"text":"這個主委對未來怎麼樣規劃就是還是在中壯年假設他們要回應有沒有更大的這個招募的方式或者是專門針對這些農民讓他們有願意可不可以再回來或者是有什麼樣的機制讓他們繼續再對這個我們的國防效力"},{"start":10285.179,"end":10298.491,"text":"有關剛剛委員講的這部分是屬於國軍的再露營的部分那再露營現在很多的新的措施有一些是就是把連線增長比如說退伍的時候以前可能是那個可以再露營"},{"start":10299.432,"end":10316.398,"text":"上位階以下然後這個退伍多少五年之內那現在又把這個時間增長退伍的那個階級也在研究是不是在繼續增長沒關係我在第二個部分我就在講我就繼續講阿群不管是在國防部的還是這個退伍會的我還是要強調就是說我們之前上一次的質詢都一直在說的是什麼"},{"start":10316.818,"end":10338.654,"text":"就是希望說未來我們從軍事上面退休的人員他不一定要去新自備的不一定要去跟農園公司相關的可以跟國防相關的那他們想要在入是一個說法那可能不是你們直接的業務但是他們想要去國防的承包商也好就像美國的這一些很多的在入我為什麼要講這件事情昨天 最近我們有一個台裔的太空人來訪台灣"},{"start":10340.322,"end":10367.019,"text":"那如果我們仔細看NASA他的訓練的這個太空人來看的話他總共大概到去年左右大概總共訓練了大概到360多名的太空人其中有212位是有軍事背景的榮民所以說在這麼多尖端的這種科技裡面我們看得到榮民在美國的參議院跟眾議院我看到最新的一些相關的資訊眾議院裡面的榮民大概是有或者是說曾經服過軍役的有79名"},{"start":10368.43,"end":10392.099,"text":"在參議院有18名也就是在美國不管是在政治的這個最高的國會殿堂到這個宇宙到太空的這些太空相關的從業人士太空人都有非常大的比例也就是說如果我們把榮民他的這樣子未來的發展只把他定位成我退休保全或者是我退休就去新之北如果比較高階的降臨"},{"start":10392.799,"end":10421.333,"text":"那就是把我們自己的可能性作效了我要看到我們的預算是能夠發揮在把這些農民的潛力全力激發出來他們是已經超越天氣他們是到太空上我剛剛講到的是360多名的這個NASA選拔的太空裡面200多名有軍事背景有農民的經驗這還我們不是指示他們去做這個太空的任務而已包含他們在工程學的軍事背景之外他們有工程學的研究或者是在這種各種的"},{"start":10422.213,"end":10446.78,"text":"科學的那個能力都是在他們軍中培養出來的所以我一直在強調就是說我這次也是要強調說我們的預算裡面不是只有說哪一個農場或者是說哪一個天然氣的公司或者是說轉投資的哪一個電影的公司等等的這些沒有把他們原本的潛力發揮出來那如果他們可以超越天際他們可以到最高的國會殿堂我們那個比例是很高的耶美國的參議員100名"},{"start":10448.342,"end":10472.432,"text":"以內18位有軍事背景那快要到養成了這個是很高的這個比例跟NASA也是一樣如果在工程、科學、政治他們都有這樣子的潛能的話我真的是希望說不要以後看到只是最後都是要嘛去保全要嘛就是去這個新自備的公司這個真的是會完全的把我們的可能性給降低那這個部分可不可以請這個主委來簡單回應一下"},{"start":10477.43,"end":10495.065,"text":"報告召委我想召委指導的這個主要就是能夠投入到國防工業這一塊讓我們現在研製的軍民專長轉弦系統我們可以把召委指導的關於國防的一些需求軍工的需求這些專長"},{"start":10496.246,"end":10516.499,"text":"反正納進來 那將來退下來的農民我們看看是給他哪些對 我再補充一下 不好意思因為我們看到很多退役的這些將官或者是校官後來有些可能去美國的或者是其他國家以色列也好 美國也好的這些公司來去協助他們"},{"start":10517.72,"end":10545.936,"text":"那對我來講我會覺得比較可惜的是說他們不必做協助的工作他們可以做主堡的工作他們可以自己再成為一個新創公司的工作那剛才你提到說平均年齡大概是66我看是平均是66沒錯但是每一年我相信會下降啦他的中位數一定是在甚至是四五十因為大家退伍的都早啦沒有升到將官的那些校級軍官 衛級軍官都退伍的都很早那我會覺得就像我剛才不要讓他們只當去保全"},{"start":10547.011,"end":10563.498,"text":"你有這些能力有這些潛力知道說軍中的這些缺的是什麼的話然後培養他們做新創產業啊你有沒有這個培養的生態圈在美國有一個叫DEF就是翻成中文的話就是國防創新論壇"},{"start":10565.939,"end":10590.456,"text":"也是他們的這些退役軍人他們自己做的這個國防創業論壇就是他們自己聚在一起來分享說我退役之後我去創了什麼樣的業哪些是跟國防相關的哪些是跟國防不直接相關的比方說我們剛剛講到的太空產業啊太空產業不是在國防外交委員會啊太空產業是在教文嘛 對那他們能不能參與 當然可以啊我們中科院的這些研究的東西能不能夠把它移轉出去"},{"start":10592.057,"end":10620.348,"text":"都是這些過去他們學習的東西明明就可以在民間上面發展那我在預算中看到的比較多的都是形裡如一創新性少了一點那我自己也不是什麼創新的人物的我沒有我很難去完整的要求大家都應該怎麼做但是我是覺得說除了這過去你不管是在國安會也好在軍中也好我覺得是可以大膽一次來去做一些過去沒有做過的事情"},{"start":10621.462,"end":10647.462,"text":"因為我覺得最大的可惜就是大家怕犯錯嘛 怕被罵嘛就是有些露營的記者然後錄完一整天然後就 誒 陳品耶我忘記帶記憶卡為什麼你忘記帶記憶卡因為我怕被罵我們不要這樣我們就勇敢的去試試看因為我覺得現在我們都說要1.25兆裡面我們說要商購"},{"start":10648.743,"end":10676.615,"text":"我們商購偉智這個部分那不就是大家很好的這些過去的這些農民朋友們特別是有科學背景能力的人就是可以好好的發揮好不好這高階人才的運用中階人才中階人才基礎人才都一樣我是覺得高階人才在現在這個全黑暗的這個社會我不知道什麼是高階什麼是中階我認為只要是願意去參與的他就是人才"},{"start":10678.876,"end":10684.1,"text":"我們每半年其實都會跟國防部來協商叫他把這個名單取得以後我們會引導他進入跟就是相關的一個領域繼續延續他的一個在軍中所學"},{"start":10701.773,"end":10725.669,"text":"那现在我们在推的就是军民专长转弦您刚有提到我们其实现在将来明年1月1号甚至于5月我就可以把那个军民专长军中所学的我就可以运用到他投入相关的一个产业里面我们已经在做这件事情甚至于职训上面我们这几年配合国家五大信赖的产业举例来讲其中就有军工产业"},{"start":10726.309,"end":10740.344,"text":"次世代的通訊AI這些都是很重要的產業我們的執訓中心我們要求他都是朝這個方向去做培訓將來訓練完以後就投入相關的產業以上好 謝謝謝謝召委好 謝謝陳冠廷委員"},{"start":10752.215,"end":10756.498,"text":"謝謝王玉川委員謝謝王玉川委員我們接下來請王玉川委員上台質詢好謝謝昭偉我們請主委謝謝我們請主委"},{"start":10772.579,"end":10797.205,"text":"主委這個退伍會的工作很辛苦我看你們的預算很少很少增加的也不多不過有幾個課題請教一下第一個在你們預算的第144頁有一個叫做訪查大陸地區高額遺產繼承人就是說我們的榮民可能他就"},{"start":10799.165,"end":10823.182,"text":"死亡過後遺產超過一百萬那我們必須派人到中國去確認他的繼承人的這些狀況我們一定要派人去沒有別的方式可以來處理這件事同樣的因為也有一些是這個榮民他就後來不管是生病什麼樣的因素他就住在中國了"},{"start":10824.656,"end":10846.983,"text":"我們還要派人去確認我們沒有別的方法可以確認這一位就是我們的榮民然後他現在還也許生病臥病在床透過視訊透過各種各式各樣的方法總比我們還要派一個人去找到他這些費用都不高啦但是沒有其他的方法可以處理"},{"start":10849.861,"end":10875.565,"text":"那委員所關心的現在大陸救養龍是現在目前一百一十五年是一百零一個人數已經減少了當初三百多個那從一百一十三年陸委會有發布橙色燈號就大陸地區他不是很安全健康會有問題所以我們就沒有去這些人都沒有去沒有去我們採取指紋驗證指紋驗證來查"},{"start":10878.854,"end":10903.52,"text":"那這些人當初都在我們榮家來救養所以各榮家每一季也會做一些電話的一些查訪那可是你們有編要去的錢啊是 這些錢都沒有 我們連累都繳回都繳回有編都沒有原來編了51萬去探訪的對因為就是跟委員報113年開始以後就沒有再去了就沒有再去了所以這些錢都繳回"},{"start":10903.84,"end":10930.735,"text":"但是預算還是編在那邊預算編那就繳回因為如果橙色燈號有變化的話跟你還是要去所以現在是橙色燈號我們就不去所以不去是但是還是留著留著到年底就會繳回那這些錢不能用別的方式就讓你們在驗證的過程中那邊的成本會增加然後就直接把這個拿掉困難在哪裡我們都繳回我知道我說那邊這筆的目的是什麼可以嗎"},{"start":10931.94,"end":10952.791,"text":"老闆我是救養處業管,那有關這個我們訪視是很重要的一環,那現在101位在大陸,我們在108年前我們有持續做這個工作。我知道透過視訊也可以嘛,因為農家的人,這些輔導的人一定認識那一位老伯伯農民嘛,那就確定是他嘛。"},{"start":10953.411,"end":10973.63,"text":"大家視訊一下就好啦 人去人去我們試圖有這樣做那現在因為大陸地區這個資安管控的問題所以我們以電話聯繫的方式跟指紋驗證來執行所以這是剛剛主委講到基本上這些費用沒有使用啦第二個就是"},{"start":10974.824,"end":10991.045,"text":"我看你們榮民榮眷的健康保險的保費是增加的可是為什麼你們親含就學的補助費用是降低的親含的就學 子女的就學的補助是降低的"},{"start":10993.549,"end":11021.244,"text":"我們在人數的部分因為有一段時間他們是會跟縣市政府的申請清涵子女補助的部分那他可以選擇跟我們申請那因為少子化的關係就慢慢減少了所以這個清涵、榮民、子女就學補助比去年少是因為人數變少是他可以選擇跟縣市政府或者跟我們都可以的那健保的費用為什麼會增加"},{"start":11023.874,"end":11037.468,"text":"建保113年建保的費用在你們報告的預算書的39頁,榮民、榮眷的建保的費用都增加為什麼增加?大家都增加嗎?還是人數的問題?"},{"start":11046.152,"end":11050.413,"text":"委員好 我是就醫保健處參事增加的原因是因為健保在結算的時候有發現我們經過有些榮民有增加投保到六類移牧為什麼會增加投保六類移牧的人數主要是經過我們本會的一個宣導讓他們做一個最適的投保有時候他們可能依附到家屬依附到他們的小孩的"},{"start":11076.395,"end":11080.476,"text":"當成依附的眷屬或是他們投保錯誤的第五類所以就是我們有這樣的一個發現你們人真好謝謝就是錢變成是你們付而不是他的家人那邊付這個是他的權益在健保法裡面有規定就是我們無職業的榮民他的保費是由本會來支應這很好 這個政府幫忙處理"},{"start":11103.283,"end":11126.152,"text":"比這個子女處理可能更好接下來有一筆錢是在第67頁你們去採購了一個叫做AI面試設備那我的理解是讓我們的這個要轉職的農民弟兄他們要去面試之前有一個模擬面試的概念那你們採購了20套"},{"start":11129.448,"end":11136.74,"text":"請問這20套是一個什麼什麼概念是版權買20套還是有20套放在20台電腦還是在20個地方"},{"start":11139.4,"end":11146.285,"text":"委員好 我是救學監獄處處長跟您報告我們買了這個就是AI的模擬系統我們要在全國的19個容服處跟執訓中心都有這樣子的一套系統這個系統呢是我們跟勞動部桃竹苗分屬授權給我們來運用但是我要透過我一個電腦的一個monitor的系統來去讓我的退出於官兵在做面試的一個模擬練習你覺得"},{"start":11169.523,"end":11197.124,"text":"大家模擬面試還要跑去一個固定的定點嗎他不能在他家用嗎他還要跑去那裡不是很奇怪嗎是委員報告我們剛講因為這個是我們從事辦到今年邁入第二年因為這個是我們要結合很多的退伍官兵因為他去求職會到我們容服處來做那個職愛諮商職愛諮商的時候我們就順便要幫他去做這個面試的"},{"start":11199.426,"end":11204.992,"text":"這錢付給誰 這個版權費付沒有版權問題 是他們授權給我們授權是誰授權桃子苗分屬 勞動部 部會之間的資源鏈結所以他收這個錢基本上也沒什麼意義啊"},{"start":11215.919,"end":11219.904,"text":"沒有付費是買硬體的設施那你們這個東西就他讓你們的榮民在家裡就可以磨裡面吃為什麼要跑去一個地方呢根據委員報告我懂您的意思但是因為這個即便像桃子苗分屬因為我說過我們是去跟他授權獲得"},{"start":11236.383,"end":11259.898,"text":"他也是讓桃竹廟地區的人到他那邊去做這樣的一個模擬嘗試因為那如果說要讓每一個人都開放的話這個版權是桃竹廟分屬我們可以去跟他洽談協商包委員跟榮福住他有一個就業站就業站專門介紹你成功的讓你去就業所以在家裡面可能有一些榮福住有的家裡會沒有所以在榮福住是比較"},{"start":11260.859,"end":11287.979,"text":"比較完整啦如果是要找工作去榮福署的就業站因為他有一個完整的一套人馬在那邊這是大家就習慣會去一個點就業媒合20套榮福署再加上我們退伍會的執行中心最後一個是在預算書41頁有關於這個偏鄉醫師留任的這個不管是獎助補助這一類這個預算跟去年的預算是一模一樣的"},{"start":11289.72,"end":11303.313,"text":"時代已經在變成本越來越高你們要留任偏鄉的醫師結果你們編的這個預算要鼓勵這個醫師在偏鄉留任的費用沒有增加這到底怎麼回事"},{"start":11306.378,"end":11335.415,"text":"這樣怎麼留任報委員這個是一個衛福部的一個偏鄉留任的這個醫師的獎勵計畫所以他們每年框的那個額度都是一樣的那我們會按照這樣的額度來看這個今年來登記的這個醫師有多少人這樣子所以我們在去年的部分我們核定了42位那今年核定31位那每年來這個報這個計畫的人數都會不一樣會有修正那你們不可以加嗎可以加的是只要預算有這個剩餘的話我們都可以在年度內可以再增加"},{"start":11336.397,"end":11353.329,"text":"不是 我就說你們不可以個人增加嗎個人的費用這個費用是按照衛福部的公道地區的醫院來給的費用那你們不能增加 退伍費自己不能加就到我這個育女農民的我就增加"},{"start":11355.017,"end":11374.02,"text":"是對,報告委員那個玉里跟鳳林還有新竹目前都屬於高度偏鄉的醫院,他的金額已經有調高了,按照衛福部的公告已經有調高了不是,我說衛福部公告以後你們可不可以再增加?沒有嘛報告委員,我是副主委吳志揚"},{"start":11374.793,"end":11403.467,"text":"那這個部分因為這個計畫是衛福部頒訂的包含這些死不復活資格還有訂定高度偏鄉和這個偏遠的部分一百八十萬一年跟一百二十萬一年他這個都是衛福規定如果要調可能要衛福部那邊來決定我們會向衛福部再爭取如果預算可以編不是啊衛福部訂了一個嘛那全國適用嘛沒有沒有他是全部所有的全國適用嘛對不對全國適用是那我們退伍會自己的"},{"start":11404.167,"end":11432.301,"text":"不能增加我們不能再加我們退幅費有我們自己訂的這個同籌款的部分但是因為這個部分它有條件比如說留任的部分偏向醫師留任最多只能領兩年超過以後就沒有了所以說我們每一年按照這個預估的人數編列這些預算那平均大概抓145萬一年一個醫師所以說我們這個錢大概都是固定這個我懂啦這全國都一樣嘛就是說那但是"},{"start":11432.941,"end":11453.701,"text":"退府會自己所屬的這些相關的醫院,我們不能再加了,一個月加個兩萬、三萬這對你們來講也是第一次而已,讓更多偏鄉的願意留在我們的系統裡我們輔導會有自己的統籌款的部分像我們心境醫師的部分,今年我們就有調整到一個醫師補助三十萬"},{"start":11454.882,"end":11471.132,"text":"那這個因為這個系統兩個規矩不一樣一個是衛福部訂所屬但是我們自己的醫生我們錢自己編但是我必須按照他所訂的標準來給付那我們自己統籌款的部分我們也會拎搬下去給各院有個依據衛福部比較沒錢啦"},{"start":11474.674,"end":11500.647,"text":"你看你在台北榮總錢那麼多錢也是用我們自己的台北榮總用那麼多錢玉里花蓮也算台北榮總管的嘛那要擺一些會鼓勵大家到偏鄉榮民醫院的系統裡頭去服務嘛研究看看啦只要衛福部不反對你們應該就可以做了衛福部能夠提高我們就跟著提高沒問題謝謝"},{"start":11506.54,"end":11515.908,"text":"謝謝王一川委員 接下來我們請洪孟凱委員上來質詢主席謝謝 麻煩請主委"},{"start":11531.383,"end":11556.972,"text":"黃委員好好主委好把握時間我想本期也跟不管是趙偉或是我們相關委員都很關心就是說我們現在退府會照顧農民人數現在有到30萬左右那其中第二類的退除役官兵是5萬5千多名第二類那第二類他就是說這個輔導期限內的這個退除役官兵其實最重要我們看"},{"start":11557.672,"end":11575.514,"text":"你說像美國其實很多的企業他們都很希望使用什麼這個軍校出身的人才因為他們認為是說軍校出身的人才他是有紀律執行力而且刻苦耐勞那一樣我們也希望是說在現在台灣缺工的狀況我們也希望我們這個"},{"start":11576.335,"end":11601.827,"text":"退除易官兵年輕的他可以投入到職場能夠有更好的運用所以我看到開宗明義也想到重點是精進AI培育人才等等的這個本席這個方向我都支持我沒有意見因為這也是我們現在產業需要人才但重點在於是我們現在有沒有掌握到底這個第二類退出易官兵他的媒合人次以及他退伍之後的穩定就業率"},{"start":11602.907,"end":11627.181,"text":"以及它分佈的產業狀況到底我們有沒有這樣的一個建議請就業處處長來簡單說明一下好不好委員好 我是就學就業處處長跟您簡要的回應第一個 暴力官兵因為他的平均退伍年齡27歲左右所以他最需要的就是我們就學 執訓 就業的一個輔導因為我們要讓他重新回到社會職場那因此在這個我們的調查裡面"},{"start":11629.002,"end":11643.491,"text":"本會每一年要輔導有一萬人左右重新回到民間職場在二類官兵裡面原則上就有將近六成都是我們二類官兵因此我們的培訓上面就聚焦到"},{"start":11644.151,"end":11672.17,"text":"結合我們現在年輕人這一群人他最適應的一個產業那配合國家的產業政策跟他們的需求還有我們看到產業上面很多缺工的地方我們就這個方面來導入這個AI科技業這樣子那所以在這樣的一個情況之下二類官兵確實每一年在運用甚至於在領我的促進穩定就業津貼也是非常多數的以上"},{"start":11673.352,"end":11699.77,"text":"處長你講那麼多都沒有聽清楚本席的問題然後回答啦好處長今天我們在共同討論就是說我開宗明義講了嘛你的方向沒有問題但我現在要問的是就像如同很多的大專院校主委我相信應該都會有這個社會見大專院校他也會去詢問是說他未來畢業生三年內五年內他投入什麼樣的職場他的職場分佈如何以及他的平均薪資是什麼"},{"start":11700.27,"end":11720.143,"text":"那本席現在這才重點嘛就是說你如果說能夠落實知道我們的退出區官兵年輕的這些朋友他後續的就業是不是有跟我們現在推動的方向一致我們不能一直講說AI AI AI AI就到最後因為本席也確實我們跟民間很多的接觸我們很多的退出區官兵他可能去擔任保全業"},{"start":11721.304,"end":11747.618,"text":"可能去擔任這些相關的物業等等我覺得這也很好職業沒有高低但我們現在方向所以本席現在才想請教是說我們有沒有針對我們這二類的退職官兵他的平均薪資或者是說產業分佈我們去做一個掌握那我們可能這樣因為今天是年度預算也因此本席才要的是說你有這樣的一個資料往這樣的方向代表是我們現在走的路是正確的加強處理加強運用來簡單回答好"},{"start":11751.105,"end":11773.431,"text":"跟委員報告我們現在整個輔導他們退出於官兵再就業回到職場的平均薪資我們的資料調查都是在三萬三萬五以上至少有三萬五以上平均都有有產業最主要大家產業大部分還是以這個製造業服務批發零售業資源服務業為主好"},{"start":11779.062,"end":11803.341,"text":"分佈的比例這個再請給本席一個資料既然已經有好那這樣就請今天看是下班前或是三天內給本席這樣相關的資料我們再來做一個追蹤因為數據才會說話數據才是我們這樣子的政策是不是延續那如果說數據是往好的方向走我們當然合理的預算能支持我們一定大力支持好不好那主委在另外一個部分所以等一下你看"},{"start":11804.099,"end":11823.039,"text":"三天內給本席相關資料好不好好 主委兩分鐘時間我也再另外為我們北海岸的鄉親請命因為我知道說這個我們台北榮總我們榮總體系其實這個醫院辦理得非常好那也確實也讓很多的這個北部地區其實不只北部地區因為我們現在台北榮總的分院"},{"start":11823.7,"end":11840.434,"text":"很多我剛算了一下應該有七八個分院對不對那也遍佈到這個花東地區宜蘭花蓮等部分那現在我們也提到就是我們的北海岸淡海新市鎮這個我也跟衛福部有提過因為現在北海岸淡海新市鎮有這個新"},{"start":11841.784,"end":11865.928,"text":"市政的開發很多的這個退役官兵也選擇在我們淡水落腳居住那還有就是那邊的醫療需求也有需要那很多人就在講因為其實住在淡水地區的人他也都會到石牌來去做籠總的一個就醫那有沒有機會因為我們現在要爭取在那邊有醫療專區那有沒有機會我們這邊也能夠來評估看看是不是有分院的可能性"},{"start":11866.653,"end":11891.08,"text":"非常謝謝黃委員現在北海岸一帶就是台大靜山醫院跟淡水馬捷在主要支撐但是很多人信任北龍都到北龍來就醫因為有捷運就直接到石牌站那如果是有量能那長官希望我們做那我們會評估我們自己有沒有這個能力因為現在醫療的人的能力非常的缺乏"},{"start":11891.88,"end":11918.698,"text":"醫療其實我們自己民意代表非常清楚所以說我們站在這邊第一線的醫護人員等等的我們能夠給予支持我們大力支持所以現在有很多其實是開了有病房但沒人力沒有辦法開接收這個急診轉這個病房等等我們也都理解但本席現在講的是說如果說沒有是一個醫院譬如說24小時急診的需求但是能夠有譬如說分院門診中心等等"},{"start":11919.518,"end":11943.483,"text":"對於一般來講的這個醫療其實它也是分流的一個狀況就如同您剛剛有提到淡海新市鎮其實它不只是淡水包括三之十門北海岸因為台大的金山分院它其實是比較服務的是右半邊那邊包括貢寮、瑞屏、雙溪、屏溪等等但這邊包括說淡水包括巴黎那尤其淡江大橋即將通車所以本期今天才會拋出來這個議題"},{"start":11945.343,"end":11966.143,"text":"過去丹江大橋還沒有要通車前本行沒有冒然拋出是因為我也認為是說交通的一個部分要考量但現在既然已經有但海新市政這邊也會預留醫療專區那剛剛院長也講了一個白話就說只要主管支持 主委支持 長官支持他們可不可以來做評估主委能不能"},{"start":11966.884,"end":11979.878,"text":"也針對這個部分我會請衛福部請地方政府提出需求但是如果說有希望能夠退輔會籠總體系一起來討論的時候能不能也一起以一個開放的心胸共同來討論"},{"start":11986.404,"end":11999.375,"text":"有足夠的人力,我們都願意幫助我們新北市的民眾,都非常的樂意我們還是往一個開放的方向,用做可行性評估的方向我們來做推動,這樣可以嗎?"},{"start":12000.404,"end":12029.057,"text":"好 我會請新北市政府因為這還是地方政府這邊也要開出他們的一個需求那未來也會找不管是我們退府會不管是衛福部我們共同來討論但是希望是我們是一個比較open的方式來去做討論那如果可以真的落腳在淡海新市鎮這真的也是造福不管是一般的民眾或造福我們的退役官兵等等這樣可以嗎謝謝主委 謝謝委員好 感謝 謝謝委員"},{"start":12032.021,"end":12059.719,"text":"謝謝洪孟凱委員接下來我們要謝謝接下來我們邀請鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌委員不在葉元之委員葉元好 委員請主席好 麻煩請找那個主委好 我們請主委"},{"start":12066.491,"end":12081.47,"text":"葉委員好主委好我想陳錫剛那個委員問的有關於就是我們榮民的就業問題因為其實說真的我們有一些不管是軍官也好士兵也好他們退伍是因為法定年紀到了他退但他還非常的年輕"},{"start":12082.631,"end":12099.041,"text":"你如果讓他們在家裡沒有事做其實對我們社會也是一個損失我覺得有很多剛退下來的那些軍官士官他可以做的事情非常多但是他現在就受了一個限制你們知道是什麼嗎你們知道是什麼嗎"},{"start":12101.716,"end":12119.691,"text":"他們受到的限制就是只要他去應徵就是有公家資源所挹注的公司或機關或單位的話他只能夠領最低薪資不然否則的話他就必須要放棄他的終身縫這個卓偉您知道嗎"},{"start":12120.191,"end":12139.319,"text":"知道那現在面對我們整個就業市場人才的缺乏其實我覺得退府會應該要大力的去幫這些農民去爭取應該要打開這個天花板那我覺得從兩個層面來談這件事第一個層面就是我們這個社會我們社會缺人"},{"start":12140.279,"end":12163.874,"text":"譬如說像我就很關心教育校園現場的校安問題那現在學校裡面是有校安人員 沒有錯但是校安人員如果可以由退伍的軍人去擔任的話事實上因為他們有受過訓練然後他們知道怎麼面對一些危機他絕對比其他人懂得怎麼去處理一些校園安全的問題"},{"start":12164.955,"end":12177.978,"text":"可是問題是他們要來就沒辦法 為什麼呢因為有些可能是公立學校啊有些是私立學校可能有拿政府的補助啊沒有辦法啊否則 那個薪水會超過他能夠領的最低薪資嘛"},{"start":12179.278,"end":12202.866,"text":"所以這個退輔會我覺得你應該要去盤點一下他們的這些需求然後去幫忙去爭取那第二個其實我直接從道理上面來講當初為什麼那些軍公教他退伍之後或退休之後會被限制只能領在就業的話只能領最低薪資因為以前他們薪水比較高啊他們退休領的比較多啊"},{"start":12204.222,"end":12224.208,"text":"那後來年改之後他所領的也沒有像以前這麼多那你的天花板還依然在那邊你把人家退休領的東西砍了結果人家要憑自己的勞力去再就業對不起你還是有天花板天花板沒有提高這樣合理嗎第三件事情我們國家並不是憑白戶給他們錢他是憑著自己的勞力在賺錢"},{"start":12229.946,"end":12236.462,"text":"那只是你給他一個限制而已所以從這幾個方面來講這個我都希望退府會能夠幫這些農民去爭取"},{"start":12238.308,"end":12267.298,"text":"那像我自己就覺得那些退伍的農民他除了可以去幫忙做教官他可以做一些這個國防的教官啊 對不對他也可以做很多講師啊現在不是政府都很強調什麼民防嗎 民力啊 任性啊你如果由退伍的軍人來做講師的工作不是非常適合嗎為什麼不要然後導致於現在有很多人退伍以後一些人退伍以後他們都戲稱好像都只能做三保啦"},{"start":12268.206,"end":12295.714,"text":"那麼比較多的人去做這個保險然後不然就是做保全然後不然就做開計程車司機等等有一些人就去做這個工作但他們也許他們想要再幫國家做事啊就被限制啦那我覺得你如果把那個天花板打開其實你對於募兵也有幫助為什麼因為當一個年輕人他決定要投入這個軍旅生活的時候他也會考慮他退休之後的生活嗎"},{"start":12297.422,"end":12320.104,"text":"假設他知道說他退休 離了中身份 五十幾歲很年輕退休只能找工作會有一定的限制 那他可能就會考慮啦應該我覺得大部分人退伍之後還會再希望做份工作嘛所以從這幾個面向來講的話畢竟你現在是退伍會主委 但你之前做過非常多重要的位置"},{"start":12321.306,"end":12338.318,"text":"國安會秘書長啊 國防部長啊 洞見觀瞻如果你願意去幫忙推動這個事情幫退伍的這些弟兄們號召一下我相信這個會有很有影響力啦不知道主委您有沒有願意我來提會委員的關心對農民的照顧尤其就業這方面這個"},{"start":12340.74,"end":12363.18,"text":"天花板就是三萬八這塊那我想跟委員報告因為這個是來自於陸海空氣事務跟福利條例這是主政機關是國防部那委員的指導我想我們也會我們其實前面已經在找國防部相關主政機關來一起研討因為他主政機關要必須要做一些調整和修正或者什麼樣的反應那我們會找他們再來做研討把我們現在"},{"start":12364.301,"end":12392.046,"text":"在執訓在就職這一塊農民所碰到的一些困難跟問題或限制因為他在私人機構是沒有這個問題公家 公家醫院就會碰到剛剛委員所講的這些一些審核的一些困難所以我想我們會找國安部一起來研商看怎麼樣來有一個很好的一個方法來解套你從農民的角度出發嘛去跟他講嘛是雖然是主政機關是他可是我們農民有這個需求啊"},{"start":12392.446,"end":12410.575,"text":"所以委員剛剛講的一個重點就是有利你招募你就可以打開之後大家都願意去因為將來退了之後他的職場很寬廣沒有限制公司他都可以去任職所以絕對是有利招募然後對我們就業市場就像我們講校園的安全雙贏所以我們會找他那你什麼時候會找他"},{"start":12417.791,"end":12446.253,"text":"你有做過部長嗎下面其實很多人都是您的那個以前的屬下你等一下就可以找了啊前面來委員會就有委員關心過所以我們有知會他們知會他們那這樣好不好主委因為我比較喜歡有一個時程啦不然每次都大約在冬季這樣就沒有什麼結論你講一個日期好不好就是說你可以比如說一個月還是兩個禮拜你可以跟國防部討論這個事情然後你一個初步的意見出來好不好用跨部會"},{"start":12446.994,"end":12473.193,"text":"你現在要修法嘛對不對就你一個我們有跨部會的一些會議啦透過跨部會的會議跨部會的會議什麼時候預計是在六月份六月是所以你會在跨部會的會議的時候把這個議題列進去 討論那你開完會會議記錄給我好不好好那一定要 一定要盡量促成啦好不好主委可以嗎好 謝謝主委 謝謝"},{"start":12477.143,"end":12478.544,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩請嚴主委"},{"start":12507.026,"end":12507.167,"text":"請出位"},{"start":12512.987,"end":12536.655,"text":"教委好 主委好 主委就剛剛葉委員其實他提到的這個部分我們想也呼應一下因為現在我們在這麼多年來其實大家在薪資上面的結構其實也不斷在調整那尤其我們在軍中養成也非常不容易那對於有很多其實可以持續報效我們國家或者相關的"},{"start":12539.276,"end":12552.305,"text":"這樣子的一個可能自己在學養上面特別專業的部分其實我們政府單位不能不可以好好的去運用他們也很可惜所以就這個部分我們也希望可以據理力爭因為那個天花板真的是不合理就這個部分我們也希望可以謝謝各位知道"},{"start":12560.271,"end":12574.966,"text":"那另外我們想要針對這個退府會每年對於所屬單位的交通以及運輸設備我們都會去檢討汰除然後當然也有新增的那我們現在汰除的依據大概是什麼連線或者是期程"},{"start":12578.939,"end":12594.407,"text":"就是一般都是依這樣子去看嘛那我們在本席在退府會公務預算書裡面的公務車輛明細表裡面發現我們在108、109年購置的車輛大概已經規劃在115年要汰換可是我們反觀還有97年、98年購置的車輛還要持續使用這個到底是什麼樣的狀況會有這種現象"},{"start":12609.147,"end":12617.482,"text":"我們依據行政院規定的啦我們現在看到救護車它的使用年限規定是7年你大概就可以汰換或"},{"start":12620.117,"end":12645.775,"text":"可是我們發現好了在退補會所屬的榮家裡面我現在針對的本期針對的是我們的消防車消防車對救護車就是我們所屬的榮家目前有近16輛的救護車已達到汰換的時限就是已經都超過7年以上而且其中更有2輛已經超過10年為什麼不汰換"},{"start":12649.332,"end":12665.74,"text":"報告委員好 我是救養處我們目前盤點我們16所農家有26輛那26輛都在10年以下那我們現在就是汰除的基準是以10年還有維修如果說成本過高那我們用這個方式來做汰換"},{"start":12667.452,"end":12690.258,"text":"可是我們剛剛有提到就是說超過7年以上你總共有26輛嘛那超過7年以上已經有16輛了而且其實像行政院它規定是在7年以上你就必須要汰換就可以汰換衛福部它是訂定相關的規定10年以上一定要汰除掉"},{"start":12691.118,"end":12703.367,"text":"可是我們有兩輛超過十年了我們也沒有太換啊尤其在這一次你已經有編列相關的預算可是他卻沒有檢討因為為什麼會特別提到這個因為救護車他一輛在屏東一輛在彰化因為救護車是擔任第一線救人的任務如果因為太過老舊或者他的零件故障拋錨等等因素而延誤到這些病患的送醫時機後果不堪設想"},{"start":12718.698,"end":12728.804,"text":"尤其像我們的榮家其實他大概很多都是年紀比較大的這樣子的一個住民所以就這個部分我們為什麼沒有把他納入去考量這個在衛福部救護車車領超過10年這是要強制淘汰的102年已經有相關的規定公告了包委員我們下去立刻檢討辦理"},{"start":12742.639,"end":12753.53,"text":"好 那就這個部分因為它畢竟是救人的我們看到有很多我們在這一次的預算裡面它有相關的機關 主管管或社區服務組長使用的不管是機車或汽車我們都已經要新購或者要汰換那救護車的部分我們希望馬上可以去檢討"},{"start":12763.78,"end":12778.426,"text":"去修正 好不好好 謝謝那另外就是要請教主委的就是我們在提升這個施治照顧量能的部分長照萬我園區這是我們今年退府會推動的重要施政的計畫那我們總經費其實從原來的十億一千萬已經調增到十六億八千多萬"},{"start":12790.47,"end":12798.137,"text":"他調整的那個金額也非常高那騎乘也從109年到112年本來112年全部可能都要完工已經延長到115年那其中可能還是有比如說板橋跟八德甚至要延到116年那目前的狀況現在相關的設備或人員他準備的如何因為可能都很快要完成了嘛"},{"start":12818.867,"end":12834.243,"text":"報導委員關心的十字園區現在目前就是剛剛早有講到一個是八德一個板橋八德是在四月然後板橋到六月然後明年完工然後110年1月啟用"},{"start":12835.805,"end":12862.252,"text":"那麼到今年3月整體的預算執行率是81那人力方面我們護理人力從今年的1月1號開始行政院核定從委外轉為我們約用總共合了338元這338元是總數338元依據我們站床率全部都到的話是338元人力但我們現在實際站床率是80所以"},{"start":12863.292,"end":12880.027,"text":"目前是257个人那造福人力是2224所以现行的这个造福量能占床率80.4%它是可以满足农家机构照顾的需求可以满足的那后续依占床的状况我们再做调整"},{"start":12880.647,"end":12886.093,"text":"對不過主委剛剛你現在你剛剛提到的可能是現況可是現況其實已經有一些人力不足的狀況我們先來看看之前我們退府會的報告裡面說明到115年年底退府會各容家總失智總床位會達到1145床"},{"start":12902.748,"end":12912.555,"text":"這個會是我們全台辦理失智照護最大的專業收容單位因為我們有很多新的或者有擴大擴建的部分那我們的總從數會是我們全台灣收容最多的這樣一個單位可是我們反觀其實我們可能在硬體上面的建制都已經完成了可是我們長期照護最重要的"},{"start":12926.864,"end":12942.577,"text":"這個重點其實是在人的部分所以我們看到這個容家的照護人力比如說像護理師跟照服員的這個人力要從哪裡來因為你增加了床位然後有這麼大的一個容納量可是我們的人力"},{"start":12943.698,"end":12962.077,"text":"要從哪裡來?我們現在看看剛剛主委有提到就是我們已經改用約用制度16所農家裡面約用護理師缺員到現在目前為止是近二分之一的有兩家然後近三分之一的有五家"},{"start":12964.053,"end":12978.423,"text":"少了二分之一的大概有屏東榮嘉跟白河榮嘉然後近三分之一的也有五家有板橋、台北、八德、彰化跟花蓮而且這個需求數在增加當中缺口數也在擴大"},{"start":12979.384,"end":12990.251,"text":"所以就這個部分我們還是希望我們在整個建制都快要完成的情況之下我們要怎麼樣提升這樣的人力因為我們還是要在十字園區的這個計畫裡面它已經要開始執行那確保相關的人員的穩定性跟品質確保住民要受到照顧的權益跟安全這是要一併去考量的那這些人力的缺口數我們現在有什麼做法或想法嗎"},{"start":13009.704,"end":13038.07,"text":"因為現在很多我們看到像包括種種體系啊或者很多其他的醫院的體系也好或者其他民間的單位或者其他的單位其實在做長照在做這些實質的照顧也好其實他們不管在薪資上面或者在福利上面比如說提供住宿啦或者是很多很多的福利在吸引或者要留這樣子相關的人才那我們有什麼樣的配套措施"},{"start":13038.53,"end":13060.541,"text":"跟趙偉報告,我們主要是把薪資待遇能夠做調整,能夠提高現在目前轉為約用之後,大概護理師跟照護員薪資都有增加大概到3000到4000左右那根據剛剛趙偉的指導,我們依站床的各農家實際狀況再來吸收招募這些護理師或照護員"},{"start":13061.241,"end":13087.602,"text":"對 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河岸會業務性性質偏重於專業導向的一個監督機制與相當二級機關"},{"start":265.226,"end":290.754,"text":"通常會公平會中選會偏重於廣納社會多元的價值有別所以以維持現行組織層級的運作請問任總你自己也講核安會的業務性質偏重於專業導向的監督機制現在核能在全世界都那麼重要加上核電又要重啟那麼重要的一個單位難道任總反對核安會回到原來的行政院二級機關嗎是這樣嗎"},{"start":294.209,"end":316.781,"text":"報告趙偉原則上我們是因應他在1、2年的時候進行促改所以他在從原子能輪會改變成核安會的當下其實有進行一些組織上的調整那當時候的原額其實也都是照現行的規模處理和給所以在相關的人力規模上其實並沒有去做其他的刪減"},{"start":317.802,"end":334.501,"text":"那另外一個部分是因為我們是在看說他的那個組織性的部分是因為他現在都是跟過去原子能委員會的職能上有做一些變化所以他現在是完全是一個監管的單位所以他的職能上維持在監管的層級上"},{"start":336.463,"end":361.294,"text":"改變成為獨立機關的性質那維持三級總歸原來就是你今天報告都有寫嘛你覺得就是維持現行嘛那所以你反對回到原來的二級機關是吧我們是建議還是維持啦我想如果二級單位員額滿的話我倒是建議人總可以降為三級啊三級機關也可以做公務人員的人力管理啦應該也沒什麼影響"},{"start":362.674,"end":382.989,"text":"但我基本上我還是希望每個單位的立場說明白沒關係我們都尊重但我們的立場就是希望既然核能重啟既然核能的安全我們要予以重視能夠幫你列為二級機關是希望說在這個業務上的跨局處跨部會的一個協調能夠更為順暢"},{"start":385.091,"end":402.46,"text":"阿當然你也說啦37萬你也順暢啦我尊重你的說法啦好那但是我們還是希望我們的立場各自說清楚好主委今天就繼續我們河岸會的赴日實地觀察第六次的報告來請教主委請問主委上次我在業務中有提到"},{"start":403.482,"end":423.791,"text":"在日本土壤的採集問題啊你們說因為日本土壤都有專屬的儲存設施進行管制那今天就繼續這個問題來跟你請教首先我有收到何安會給我的回覆請問國際原子能總署於2025年2月視察寒川廢水排放的作業時也有對於土壤的儲存設施進行視察"},{"start":425.692,"end":452.712,"text":"但並無提出土壤取樣的評估作業請問主委國際原子能總署對土壤沒有要求我們就不需要主動規劃土壤監測跟取樣嗎人家沒有做我們也不要做這樣的風險評估你不覺得很被動嗎報告委員我們現在政府的規定國外的土壤是不允許進口的"},{"start":454.461,"end":480.896,"text":"就詳細我們再請張主任再做詳細報告報告委員因為目前那個日本是還沒有正式釋出這個土壤的一個在地用所以我們去看的時候應該是先掌握他們的初步的一個規劃跟想法那我相信IAEA也國際專家也是這樣的一個想法所以"},{"start":482.017,"end":495.706,"text":"究竟之後真的他們去做土壤的一個一個外試使用到底他使用的面向是在哪裡對國人有沒有一些健康的一個風險我相信這邊都應該我們都荷蘭會都還是未來持續的一個掌握然後來評估"},{"start":501.61,"end":516.78,"text":"那以現在目前的一個階段而言因為他那個土壤是在管制的一個儲存設施所以在跟委員報告以目前為止我們大概是不會有一個取樣的這一些規劃"},{"start":518.701,"end":538.948,"text":"為什麼我會對土壤這麼有興趣我們來探討一下我先請問既然土壤設有這一個日本的土壤儲存設施進一步請教河岸會在復日是否會有實地了解這些儲存設施對地下水是否造成影響是否滲漏擴散長期污染的一個風險評估"},{"start":541.905,"end":556.338,"text":"也包括委員那因為這些土壤他們放到這個中期儲存其實在我們的國際就是我們的一個審查我們都是用國際的一個IEA的審查它還是屬於放射性的一個污染物"},{"start":557.038,"end":581.914,"text":"所以在国际的规范里头第一个当然要有完善的处理就我们知道日本的土它下面会有一些隔水的一个然后最下面会有黏土那中间旁边其实它这些雨水下落其实它有回收的机制所以它就是有一个储存设施去做隔离我知道可是进一步我们要来谈的就是"},{"start":582.734,"end":607.038,"text":"日本目前政策是將低輻射受污染的土壤再利用在道路在防潮堤海岸防災林填海公共工程喔我要請問主委這些再利用土壤是否可能會影響鄰近的栽培食用農作物的土壤這是我們關心的啊"},{"start":608.629,"end":622.181,"text":"我知道嘛高污染的一定會做一個隔離嘛但低輻射污染我們也要監測啊我的態度很清楚有人說啊中國的核廢水排放我一樣要監測啊"},{"start":624.369,"end":650.413,"text":"只要任何影響到國人的飲食健康影響到我們未來甚至是孩童的飲食我一律都反對我一律都要求一定要嚴格審查所以剛剛我講的很清楚嘛為什麼我們關心土壤你說高汙染的他有儲存設施低汙染的他拿出來利用啦填海等公共工程我們是不是應該多關心一下這個議題不是只有寒川廢水"},{"start":652.042,"end":674.609,"text":"那有委員提到中國核廢水也要關心啊 我支持那現在我講的 低污染的這一個土壤來做公共工程了 主委它也有可能影響啊 我們是不是要關心是 我們一直在關心 只是他們土壤目前還沒有外施對不起 您剛剛講什麼 再講一次一直在關心下一句是什麼還沒有釋放出來"},{"start":679.028,"end":705.692,"text":"還沒有釋放出來對 他只是試點 有一些試點你說他的這個公共工程有幾個示範點是嗎在研究之中 還沒有正式釋放對嘛 他有打算這樣做嘛對吧他有這個 往這方面想有想我們就要來開始關心了啊對不對我們也有依舊關心預防勝於治療啊"},{"start":707.148,"end":715.131,"text":"你不能等他做了你才要來關心啊對不對我們要看到更超前超前部署嘛好不好"},{"start":716.218,"end":739.959,"text":"謝謝委員所以進一步了解地下水具有流動性是否存在地下水的傳輸輻射物質的二次擴散相關的風險有沒有充分的被我們給關注到去做評估嗎我想植物生長仰賴水土壤空氣三個基本的要素但根據食藥署公佈的資料日本五縣地區的食品監測和格率"},{"start":741.761,"end":761.56,"text":"從2021年的99.7到2023年99.5到2024年的前5個月99.1坦白講是呈現下降的趨勢請問主委這樣的變化是否可能跟環境中水土壤空氣的污染變化存在著關聯呢我們有沒有進一步的分析其因果的關係"},{"start":763.868,"end":785.195,"text":"那報告委員那因為那個衛福部其實是福島100年事故開始其實就都在做這個的一個邊境的一個查驗所以他的一個污染的一個來源是因為事故當下其實造成的一個污染的一個土壤所造成的所以也就像委員講的這個是長期的那"},{"start":786.156,"end":799.074,"text":"衛福部都有在這塊關心那剛剛講的這些污染在這十年中其實污染的土壤已經都被日本政府一一的收到剛剛我們講的那個中期儲存所以整體來講未來的這個土壤"},{"start":801.778,"end":821.915,"text":"他的一個一個在利用的一個使用其實都會在安全的標準而且現在日本也還沒有去做這一方面的一個推動所以在這一邊那個衛福部的邊境查驗也相信他們的一個合格這個都是會合格的對民眾的安全這都是我們很關心的啦那再來"},{"start":822.635,"end":849.748,"text":"報告也提及日本對低輻射污染土壤採取再利用的政策像我剛剛講的防潮堤防災林 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謝謝主席 首先請經濟部鞏部長請鞏部長國貿署劉署長國貿署劉署長署長不在了是吧對 署長請下不是到12點嗎這個台灣加入CPTPP是我們的重要的政策那推動一定要有預算也要有策略請教一下經濟部特別是國貿署今年有沒有編列多少預算來推動台灣加入CPTPP"},{"start":46.994,"end":74.983,"text":"我想應該是編載國貿署你OTN是任務編載你相關的預算應該是要編載國貿局國貿署你從預算書裡面能不能反映出來你要推動沒有預算不行啊的確是有一部分是編載OTN的是當然在經濟部的下降今年要推動台灣加入CPTPPOTN是編多少錢我們要跟12個會員國去磋商去討論"},{"start":76.542,"end":97.799,"text":"甚至希望說有會員可以幫海灣提案成立工作小組你們預算我這一問就不知道我要怎麼去推動CPTPP那個向委員報告今年我們推動在CPTPP的費用我們現在"},{"start":102.893,"end":109.818,"text":"其實都講不清楚預算有多少我很難期待你們有好的表現今年已經動資的部分大約是在450萬台幣"},{"start":115.683,"end":144.255,"text":"如果美金還差不多 450萬台幣12個國家你要去跟他們磋商 國貿局你要去跟這個主要的國家願意幫台灣體驗這些國家 加強這個磋商討論或者提出這個對策 甚至高層會議 我也建議部長你有必要去越南跑一趟 或者去日本跑一趟主要的關鍵國 你現在才用450萬 450萬你能夠做多少事情是 我們也利用比較"},{"start":145.66,"end":166.775,"text":"多元的時間就是說可以盡量接觸也都會表達比如說我們現在就是說把這個議題分散到OTM分散到外交部跟國貿署跟經濟部沒有一個統整的戰力各部會各行其事當然不可能把計較展現出來而且預算又編的這個我覺得很納悶預算為什麼編如此之少"},{"start":167.938,"end":185.947,"text":"這個如果要推動是要有一個政務委員 再生大臣在日本是一個再生 經濟再生大臣去強力推動做一個重要的國家政策啊資源 預算要到位 人員要到位啊那我要問你說你現在跟12個我們成員國磋商討論目前的結果怎麼樣"},{"start":187.663,"end":203.689,"text":"巴爾委員我們現在都是用雙邊的或是多邊的預算那只要有機會碰面就會提到這件事情不是你要把它當一個正式專案去執行你如果是附帶的用專案這個在多邊協議的時候附來提一下人家怎麼會重視呢"},{"start":204.369,"end":230.009,"text":"像我就為了CPTPP我跑了幾個國家我跑了七個國家而且是面對面的跟國會議員表達這台灣要加入這個決心已經準備好了對 因為我們雙邊的這個對話通常CPTPP是一部分但是也會談其他的議題所以會一起談不會只談今年是關鍵年如果今年在年底越南當主辦國如果沒有辦法加入你後面就遙遙無期了"},{"start":231.43,"end":245.823,"text":"為什麼我急 就急到現在我覺得你要把它當一個正式 你要用部長的高度來整合你要整合歐天 你要整合外交部 你要整合各外管的經濟組同仁每個月回報最新進度 接下來結果怎麼樣"},{"start":247.064,"end":266.047,"text":"好 然後我們要怎麼樣達證要誰來提案讓台灣成立工作小組那其他的這個會員國都不要有特別的反對意見這樣子我們成立的工作小組才能水到渠成嘛要有人提案啊那你要策動哪些國家去提案這個你都有覆案耶好 我們來思考這個這個台灣還不是內閣制國家如果內閣制國家國務院可以見證閣員的話我可以當你們這個"},{"start":276.57,"end":280.433,"text":"所以問你三個產業在你新的這一年我們預算今年通過雖然晚了一點"},{"start":299.804,"end":311.295,"text":"好 針對航空產業針對金屬扣人產業針對石化產業這些產業都集中在中南部你的施政的重點跟你要達成的目標請針對這三項產業做一個說明"},{"start":314.166,"end":335.854,"text":"就是扣件產業的部分的話現在他們在一些AI方面的推動的話現在是我們推動的一個重點希望能夠藉由這些AI推動讓他們的一些相關這AI推動講了很久了但是我覺得具體的成效你是不是可以把你今天預定要推動的成果跟目標是不是提供一些書面資料給我那航太呢"},{"start":336.704,"end":361.625,"text":"那航太的部分的話就是有一些加入國際的一些認證的一些協助重點是在無人機嘛無人機對對啦 重點是在無人機嘛航太一定有一定的基礎現在新的領域是在無人機嘛所以你要怎麼協助航太產業裡面無人機能夠生根築壯發展跟國際接軌這個才是最重要的嘛那石化呢"},{"start":362.486,"end":382.177,"text":"石化的話我們現在在雅文這邊有推動石化的一些公安也可以透過AI的方式來提升它的一些另外一個就是高質化的推動現在股市三萬八現在石化相關產業他們股價大概是一萬點左右的股價這比一萬點股價還更低"},{"start":386.513,"end":408.299,"text":"對不對所以他必須面臨到產業發展的瓶頸跟挑戰我們要用政府的力量怎麼樣協助他們轉型當然面對中國的競爭也是很重要他們自己也要有轉型的意識但是我們要轉型的協助跟輔導你去看傳統產業的股價跟AI半導體的股價完全是天差地遠"},{"start":410.133,"end":426.264,"text":"所以我覺得針對這三項相對的重要對中南部比較重要的產業我希望說政府能夠拿出具體的政策有具體的成果來協助這三項產業能夠有更好的競爭力好 接下來是雲管局雲管局楊局長部長 海外產業部聚落的布局你們編了一億去執行 對不對"},{"start":439.229,"end":453.83,"text":"那我覺得你們現在這個計畫一億好像只是做一些資料收集沒有一個具體成果你應該可以告訴我說這個海外產業機構是在哪一個國家哪一個城市已經有初步的雛形是集中在哪些產業"},{"start":455.294,"end":474.085,"text":"現在分成幾個部分我們除了在某些國家裡面有設置的這個服務跟貿易中心那另外也跟TIMA就是電電工會共同要開發這個園區那某些已經有一些合作的一些方案比如說第一個在波蘭已經有了"},{"start":475.566,"end":498.781,"text":"他們已經開始要選 因為可行性評估有三案 對另外在美國 美國可能有兩個地方那東南亞呢東南亞那時候本來是說菲律賓是不是有可能那現在有在討論當中尤其是美國也宣布了他們跟菲律賓要有大概一千多公頃的一個所謂的一個特區"},{"start":499.682,"end":519.298,"text":"那我覺得三個還是不夠 兩個集中在美國 一個在歐洲那你甚至在亞洲國家應該有一些產業才能符合日不落國對不對 經濟日不落國所以你這個產業佈局一定要是放在跟我們相對產業比較集中的區域比方說在越南或者是泰國"},{"start":520.859,"end":549.62,"text":"這產業聚落才有意義你不是從新開始從一張白紙開始你要在既有基礎上去建構一個台灣海外的這個產業聚落專區對 這個有分啦如果說因為這個海外聚落的話因為這個政府來講還是要居土居所以要看對方的政府跟我們如果是純民間的我們也會支持那純民間比如說TIMA他現在要去墨西哥那我們也會協助他"},{"start":550.2,"end":560.588,"text":"但是就民間發動了 政府在主打就是說波蘭一處然後美國兩處你們多尋找一些比較有競爭力的另外最後請水利署署長這個"},{"start":567.793,"end":591.483,"text":"北高雄就是我的選區幾乎我們每天都在看這些工程我每一項都看過我會講署長你也陪我看過好幾次所以這個每一項工程都是有它急迫性跟必要性而且我親自去看過你也在現場包括應急工程在15年度大概就9,160萬這些都是必要性而且必須馬上去處理的應急工程請部長署長能夠全力支持"},{"start":592.003,"end":619.53,"text":"另外就是說115到118年這個北高雄這個整體的改善計畫河川跟排水整體的改善計畫這幾個包括點寶溪包括土湖排水包括沿海區域這些經費都非常重要這個跟北高雄的這個城市韌性有關係因為北高雄不只是只有只有傳統產業我們更有未來高科技的AI跟半導體的聚落所以不能有天然災害發生"},{"start":621.277,"end":647.558,"text":"特別是這個強降雨或颱風來的時候不能淹水因為半島立場不能淹水所以這個部分的這個所謂這個典寶溪流域的治理計畫跟土庫排水跟沿海區的治理計畫這些經費我請部長跟署長重視加以支持我們會全力來辦理沒問題雖然金額不小大概50億左右但是這要花在刀口上是救產業救人民要提升生活品質"},{"start":648.238,"end":658.288,"text":"也謝謝委員多次現堪給我們指導非常謝謝也謝謝你每次我邀請你的會來是應該的好 謝謝好 謝謝邱志偉委員"}]}},{"id":"168757","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168757","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5880b40c5769f1458642813954d83663812774c6aab6af5c95c54bff74e416ddd93173464eae515ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"12:33:59 - 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部長好 部長本席針對能源的議題再跟您就教一下剛我從教育文化委員會過來 今天何安慧主委來那她在答詢其他委員的一個答 詢答的時候她答覆 她說她認為核電是有穩定電價的作用那媒體把她下標 剛即時新聞也出來 您認不認同這個講法"},{"start":45.507,"end":72.56,"text":"但是它現在的比例大概只有即便是核二核三它重啟以後大概佔的比例大概是百分之十但是對整體的這個影響就是百分之十這個多元嘛我們一直強調是說能源其實是可以更多元不然台電現在也不用送重啟核三廠的計畫只要是多元安全的我們都所以核電是能夠穩定電價"},{"start":74.4,"end":100.954,"text":"有助穩定電價至少我們不會說成本的部分影響譬如說剛剛很多委員都在關心其實這從228之後到現在兩個月左右時間所以為什麼 燃氣 燃煤石油的價格都往上甚至迫性高為什麼再生能源因為再生能源我們是本地的能源那核能當然也是如果將來重啟的話的確是有"},{"start":101.474,"end":118.048,"text":"有助於就是因為國際的如果是能源價格波動的時候他比較不會受到影響好來那這樣子我想請教因為現在核電的部分持續他就在走這個程序那就是專業專業審查安全審查尤其核安很重要這個沒有辦法急"},{"start":119.429,"end":133.55,"text":"另外一個部分就是說那我們比較短時看到的其實大家也都在講因為你也有這個要重啟其他藍莓電廠的一個計畫或可能性那我現在想請教到底我們有沒有這個我現在都是一個最"},{"start":136.172,"end":160.185,"text":"嚴謹的態度來去預估料敵從寬中東戰事真的不知道什麼時候會結束那我們現在夏天馬上來到五月進入就是用電的高峰那有沒有後續如果說真的緊張的一些其他的備援計畫或是備用方案甚至韓國政府也已經講了就是有這個什麼民間公務車要減少啊等等的部分"},{"start":160.925,"end":170.483,"text":"那我們到目前為止好像看起來還沒有只有卓院長一個月前講一句就說大家就是深入檢出啦意思就是說大家是精簡車輛使用"},{"start":172.318,"end":196.269,"text":"但我比較想要具體的做法有沒有還是我們認為是說我們不管怎麼樣我們都可以撐得過因為報告委員我們還是要看就是說我們的這個備用狀況備存存存量狀況那因為我們現在的存量油的部分我們現在還是有140天雖然法定是90天所以都還符合那除非這個掉得很快我們就可能要思考"},{"start":197.189,"end":219.845,"text":"一直維持 因為戰爭已經一個多月了它一直可以維持就表示我們一直進來掉得很快那這樣子本席就是問一些就比較數字層面因為我們相信制度不相信人不是說用人來判斷 而是說我們制度怎麼樣有沒有掌握假設我們到什麼時間點我們的備存量到什麼時間點我們可能就要研議plan 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摸石過河剛開始大家不曉得怎麼樣去調度這件事情但是現在已經過了一個多月以後大家已經比較熟悉哪裡可以調得到比較清楚了"},{"start":318.474,"end":344.777,"text":"有多產的部分他們也願意供應到這個市場現貨市場價格現貨市場出來了所以部長我還是提醒因為這個內部的資訊資料你們一定比國人跟委員都還來得清楚我一而再再三強調不是要找查而是我認為說政府應該要有預先劇本而不是發生狀況才來做所以為什麼我們固定的每一個禮拜都會對外說明"},{"start":345.237,"end":361.074,"text":"我們現在的存量狀況怎麼樣好那最後兩點啊因為現在剛也有劉建國委員關心這個藍媒的部分本席的選區也有林口火力發電廠它是藍媒發電那其實它影響的不只是台北市260萬人新北市4來萬人桃園200多萬人"},{"start":362.455,"end":379.349,"text":"因為它這整個大台北地區都有空氣的影響過去本席曾在王美花部長的任內的時候我有提一個臨時提案我也接受到王美花部長的一個承諾就是因為當時藍莓持續飆高所以有一年突破到704萬"},{"start":382.031,"end":396.476,"text":"一年那我那時候就有講是說我們未來是以這為標準不能超過那到目前為止今年我們有沒有 目前的規劃不會都不會嗎 就是還是要信守這個承諾因為我們過去提出來就是那個是一個高標"},{"start":397.176,"end":425.477,"text":"那你如果說政府一直告訴我們說非核家園再生能源等等的那燃煤相對來講是比燃氣造成的空汙都還要嚴峻也因此林口火力發電廠都還維持這樣的一個標準林口的那是超燒臨界是在煤裡面是最好的是 但它還是燃煤如果說你要再炒說像以前賴清德院長講的什麼乾淨的煤的話我想一般的國人聽不進去好不好那一分鐘的時間也是一樣因為再生能源我們現在有在講"},{"start":426.758,"end":447.846,"text":"那本席另外選區另外一個部分是合一廠合一廠現在沒有重啟的計畫但本席之前就有提過合一廠的優勢在於是它相對來講還是比較北海岸地區人煙相對稀少還有它過去的電網都已經不好了也因此在那邊應該有再生能源的"},{"start":448.926,"end":468.384,"text":"發展可能性如果假設我們合一廠能夠轉變為譬如說像您這邊有提到的生殖能、氫能等等的發電那未來它的電網的配置就會比較容易來供應那我過去也提出是不是針對合一廠那邊因為北海岸也有一些地熱也有一些洋流的優勢"},{"start":469.645,"end":486.957,"text":"那我們目前是不是可以要求我們來研究看看因為這個有牽涉到技術面的當然當地居民還有溝通的問題但是如果說以我們現在講嘛是再生能源來講總是它的溝通成本相對比較少而且我想說因為佈置成本已經完成了嘛對"},{"start":487.757,"end":512.1,"text":"過去合一廠那邊的電網都已經佈置完嘛所以現在合一廠如果說那個地方可以轉變成再生能源的發電不管是用洋流能 地熱能 氫能它都會對於我們有實質的幫助嘛好 這個我們來研究那部長什麼時候 總是研究要給我一個時間各位報告喔 那個合一廠現在最重要的工作是在做廚藝工作"},{"start":513.343,"end":535.098,"text":"我們先把我們會把廚藝的工作做到一個階段廚藝工作這個是兩部都可以進行嗎可以跟委員報告我這樣子講因為牽涉到還有規模的問題因為其實合一廠是面積最小的一個廠然後我現在還要做室內乾除做了以後的空間他能不能做什麼事北海那部分如果有地熱潛力的部分我們會做地熱不然的話可能就是要做風力以這兩個來看我們會來做一些相關的規劃是啊 很好啊所以這個完全不衝突啊董事長"},{"start":542.523,"end":570.182,"text":"一方面是廚藝你持續照廚藝的腳步走但另外一方面你其他的部分你開始就可以去譬如說請專家學者來做地熱的了解那邊到底有沒有豐富的資源風力到底有沒有可行那未來以及我今天不是說今天講完明天就讓你去做我是講是說未來如果廚藝完成然後還有相對的發電的時候我們那邊要有多少的風機還是我們要用怎麼樣的地熱這種事現在就可以啟動規劃吧"},{"start":572.733,"end":585.582,"text":"來研究看看好 所以什麼時間點還是一樣要給我個時間表嗎我才能夠繼續追蹤三個月內本席等你三個月 好不好但是其實也請容許本席提醒部長"},{"start":587.605,"end":612.439,"text":"這個質詢之前我就已經提過台電應該也已經聽過本席這樣講這個其實是台電的資源其實是經濟部的資源不要把資源放著不用所以我願意再等你三個月但我希望這三個月真的是有投入專家學者去研究了解到底那裡適合做什麼樣的再生能源然後提出具體可行的方案而不是再來"},{"start":613.82,"end":622.327,"text":"再研議 或是說再來雙手一談說我們現在在做廚藝我想這樣的一個態度就不是一個積極的態度 好不好感謝"}]}},{"id":"168755","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168755","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5880b40c5769f1a973114c6bae570b10d96ca025fdcb7c5c95c54bff74e416c28002b7c9e729de5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"12:20:39 - 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陽前發言 邀請NCC好 請NCC陳代主委兩位好"},{"start":17.115,"end":34.955,"text":"主委好我們114年的調查報告當中呢也就是說依賴家用電話的民眾已經降到2%那單純使用手機的首次突破了5成達到了52.6那顯示市化功能正在快速"},{"start":35.896,"end":64.263,"text":"被這個行動通訊來取代那尤其到16歲到25歲的年輕族群完全不會去使用家用電話的比例已經高達74.8%26到35歲也達到了72.5%這代表什麼呢代表台灣通訊使用已經出現了明顯的世代落差那年輕人全面的這個手機化高齡者卻仍留在這個世化的一個時代"},{"start":65.203,"end":90.831,"text":"那在這樣子的一個情況之下呢我們又看到高齡者他還是依賴高度的依賴這個室內電話因為他也怕說這個手機沒電他也怕說收訊部這個不穩或者是緊急狀態的時候他沒有備月備緩的這個通訊那在這樣的一個情況之下呢我要請教主委室外電話持續在下降"},{"start":91.371,"end":108.533,"text":"那高齡者卻是高度的依賴的這個情況呢那政府也應當要照顧高齡的這個通訊需求所以我們針對於未來市化的網路跟公共通訊的資源你要怎麼樣去調和跟整合"},{"start":111.555,"end":128.387,"text":"社化是屬於過往部分過往其實本來是一個國家電信的最基礎最基本最根基的然後其實在國安上過往本身也有行網的沒有的好處就是行網其實打仗的時候又發生"},{"start":129.828,"end":155.193,"text":"對方發動電子戰 行網大概也掛掉 過往是有它的好處所以剛剛委員提到說 市化的使用 年輕族群大概越來越少這個是全世界趨勢是 典範轉移 這個無可避免但是在照顧使用市化的既有的族群裡頭特別是等於中高年齡以上的部分那針對這一部分 我們從好幾方面來處理 第一個"},{"start":155.993,"end":183.849,"text":"如果一般在房價上那目前的市化的一些語音警示的部分國際的話都已經做了那未來這個風險號部分中華電信已經在我們要求下下個月就會開始來推動主委你談到這裡我們就直接切入第二題的一個討論也就是在3月25號的時候NCC推動的隱藏號碼來電語音的一個警示中華電信他率先先進行來示範"},{"start":185.49,"end":202.255,"text":"那在預估下個月三大電信業者也會全面的來導入那市化的部分是安排在六月份的時候來跟進那您指示出呢我們這個中華電信事辦以來我們看到了成效"},{"start":202.995,"end":205.476,"text":"因為業者告訴我們說已經主動這個斷話4萬筆主動斷話4萬筆那對於長者的這個高風險族群尤其是長者最怕就聽到電話就被詐騙的那請教主委"},{"start":219.722,"end":241.52,"text":"高齡的是最依賴在事化的這個部分也是最容易被騙的這個族群那為什麼會擺在六月份是不是六月份會不會執行之呢因為現在這個詐騙的這個橫行到讓人民非常非常的恐懼跟恐慌尤其長者我們要怎麼樣好好保護他們"},{"start":242.361,"end":259.214,"text":"所以本校請教 既然中華電信它示範的是有效的那我們在試劃的部分到底什麼時候會真正的來落實呢好 根本就報告這個試劃部分我們跟中華電信要求的結果他們是一定會上路"},{"start":259.754,"end":281.895,"text":"日本一定會上路我個人也是希望我們可以好好的去宣導一下讓這些長者知道隱藏的電話他就是有危機了那麼我們又做了這樣的動作可以更圍堵這些詐騙集團這些詐騙的這個案件對不對對 所以這邊我們也非常謝謝中華電信配合"},{"start":282.688,"end":306.831,"text":"不過各方的管道趕快好好去推廣接下來本席要跟你我個人跟你討論的就是說AI生成影片那它的聲音它的圖片快速普及這些技術變化的非常的這個深化那所以因此在媒體使用AI素材的比例也持續的在升高"},{"start":307.572,"end":320.923,"text":"那目前外界所最擔心的是什麼呢是用了AI卻沒有揭露那導致觀眾不知道分辨不知如何分辨到底是哪個是真的畫面"},{"start":322.148,"end":344.106,"text":"哪些是深層的這個內容所以 安心心你在3月25號的時候有承諾以延逸廣電媒體AI應用的指引 是不是是 各位報告這部分我們已經跟業者專家兩輪了 業者一輪了我們下禮拜就會找業者第二輪預計這個5月底前會收斂會來處理那剛剛有人提到第二個重點如果傳統的廣電媒體"},{"start":350.211,"end":376.259,"text":"使用這AI沒有標識造成民間誤導的話其實過往華視就發生過我們也處罰他沒有事實查核沒有影響公共秩序罰他兩張五十萬的處分兩張五十萬的處分所以你現在第一輪的一個討論是包含了查核機制揭露跟標識"},{"start":379.634,"end":401.579,"text":"但是如果僅此如此 那是屬於什麼 行政指導有沒有強制力 請教他的反應是在未廣法 住院法裡頭如果他是超越了違反事實查證的部分一樣構成未廣法或無廣法的一些違法構成要件 一樣會被裁罰"},{"start":402.301,"end":428.641,"text":"一樣會被參訪因為大家深怕如果只是一個行政指導沒有強制力的時候那會變成出現標示不一致它的規範寬鬆甚至導致在整個處理的過程當中它是模糊的一個狀態那反而會讓AI內容成為資訊戰跟假訊息的一個新破口對 我很想要重點就是說"},{"start":430.583,"end":445.104,"text":"虛擬報導他最大的重點是要要符合事實要事實查證這一塊他的影片來源不管是AI生成或非AI生成只要他成就了這個有違反事實查證的部分一樣會被裁罰"},{"start":446.104,"end":463.487,"text":"一樣會被裁罰 所以我們也有一個建議那主委你來討論看看是不是規劃後續你納入這個評鑑 換照跟裁罰的這個依據那這樣子是不是強制力 月數率會更強"},{"start":464.188,"end":465.249,"text":"因為剛剛在討論的時候詐騙是現在全國人民非常的不安"},{"start":482.602,"end":503.256,"text":"剛剛說到的數字今年度一月份觀光這個通報的被炸的就一萬多件他的資金啊顯性出來是七十億以上每一個月都是雙位數而且都在增加所以這個部分一定要把關非常的重要"}]}},{"id":"168754","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168754","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5880b40c5769f13b89f7afa92efc7d63812774c6aab6af5c95c54bff74e41645d84521957c0fb45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"盧縣一","委員發言時間":"12:28:14 - 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謝謝"},{"start":19.643,"end":39.694,"text":"今天就自来水的问题就这样刚刚看完原系性计划看到114年度可用的预算数是197亿可是到目前为止的7月了它仅55亿4625万元我想知道说现在的实现率是28.1%是不是我们的咨询力太差第二就是说全国的自来水的普及率已经到95.55%"},{"start":41.855,"end":62.166,"text":"可是看到我們原住民地區比如說屏東縣還在72台東縣83苗栗87南投81就是說都集中在我們原住民居住的地區所以對我們原住民地區是相對的不公平而且我們是每天看好山好水的人可是我們的普及率卻遠遠不如全國各地然後現在還有看到前瞻計畫的"},{"start":64.227,"end":88.039,"text":"預計改善戶數是7000戶可是實際的改善戶數是1367戶也就是說不到五分之一不到20%我想知道說目前這來水公司和經濟部這邊有沒有你們的一個改善方案或是說可以說服我們原住民民主在這個廣大的三原生活什麼時候可以期盼到好的水我請水公司說明一下OK好"},{"start":90.987,"end":115.779,"text":"謝謝委員的一個指導那有關山地原住民或平地原住民的部分的這個自來水其實以我們自來水公司計算是普及率還有一部分是用簡易自來水那像山地原住民我們自己的統計算接我們自來水公司的普及只有38%左右不過再加計簡易自來水的話這些山地原住民"},{"start":116.879,"end":143.225,"text":"區域大概普及率有達到76%那平地原住民的部分大概我們水公司的普及率已經有88%再加一些減水至少有92%左右我們是期望說現在看到這麼多的經驗就是還沒有執行的部分我是希望能夠盡快的大概普及率能夠更高然後它的執行率能夠更高第二個最後就是一個自來水的那個檢測常常就是明明是你說剛才檢測自來水可是有些地方的檢測是"},{"start":144.105,"end":160.258,"text":"有的是半年啊一年啊可是在汛期的時候會發現他們的水確實是不堪使用我們就加強那個簡易自然水的強化讓他的這個水質會比過去還要更好這個是我們可以來強化的部分那我們在地方"},{"start":160.718,"end":179.618,"text":"有一些問題來提供給部長參考我們在明明是我們是水源地的地方比如說我是住在馬家鄉我們的水源是可以提供給都會區比如說屏東市這些鄰近的平地的鄉鎮甚至遠道鳳山可是我們沒有服務據點也就是說在我們"},{"start":180.979,"end":205.035,"text":"地區的生活的民眾如果他要申請這來水的話他一定要到渡會區也就是說他要花很多的時間然後呢我們馬家、霧台、山地這三個地方沒有服務據點以外呢他的比如說他要繳費啊有一些比如說是一般不是一般的朋友比如說他是工程費用他不能到7-11繳也不能到一般的那個郵局繳他一定要到公司去繳那"},{"start":205.635,"end":229.652,"text":"我們明明是提供水源的人可是我們享受不到這樣的服務第三個就是說我們希望有一個回饋機制我們已經供應這麼多年的水給都會區可是卻沒有一般的回饋給我們原住民部落我覺得這個部分應該經濟部這邊也要思考還有就是最後一個就是門牌取得的困難你要申請這條水門牌可是這個門牌的取得"},{"start":230.072,"end":247.591,"text":"其實常常要主人自己去弄然後其實沒有一個專責的單位在負責做這些事情比如說國有地要變更或者是說它嚴管要可能因為居住地的範圍擴大了結果要嚴管的時候其實很多基礎的事情都是要勞駕"},{"start":249.032,"end":262.566,"text":"鄉公所 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謝主席有請部長有請幹部長還有台電的曾董事長台電曾董事長部長你看每一戰爭的衝突每一戰爭的衝突會持續多久大約你的觀察"},{"start":31.576,"end":57.236,"text":"這個我再猜應該是不會我個人啦這個是我個人因為不會太久因為美國選舉快到了好不會太久到底是到底是多久你猜嘛我尊重部長的用猜的方式是在三個月在半年在一年大約啦大約你猜應該是不會那麼久啦你猜是多久我猜是你怎麼看董事長"},{"start":59.184,"end":66.496,"text":"你們兩個套好了你猜的是你猜的為什麼要看董事長還是董事長提供猜的日期給你"},{"start":68.852,"end":91.23,"text":"因為對我們來講我們還是把事情準備好比較正常沒有錯沒有錯但是總是你有講說你猜嘛大致上所以我是請教你的對事情的觀察我們就做好萬全的準備啦比如說我們先看到把所有的事情六月跟七月的事情做好你是一個做事情非常積極然後也非常會做事的一個部長所以你覺得萬全準備沒有問題"},{"start":92.891,"end":98.759,"text":"但是我只是請教你說你猜大約會多少因為是剛剛你回應我嘛但是你看了曾董事長之後你就不猜了"},{"start":100.523,"end":121.976,"text":"這是曾董事長在干擾你 還是怎麼樣沒有 報告委員 因為我們現在準備都是比如說現在3月份的時候我們都看到6月份我們先把它準備好那再過一個月我們就一直往下準備這樣子好啦 沒關係 部長就看了董事長之後就已經回應我的方式就已經有改變了齁那我等一下就好好再請教曾董事長齁"},{"start":123.216,"end":147.523,"text":"每一兩週的停火協議即將在台灣時間4月23號的早上8點對不對然後一週到齊了啦這也不用猜嘛然後也就是說明天早上川普已經也直接表態停火協議不可能延期那甚至兩年除非伊朗乖乖簽字或者這個赫姆茲海峽會繼續封鎖甚至不排除再度風炸這是即時的一個新聞嘛"},{"start":148.763,"end":168.211,"text":"然後在此同時 伊朗方面也持續釋出更強硬的訊號他們的國會議長卡利巴夫稱伊朗已經做好在戰場上的準備也亮出了這個一個新底牌好 那我想我是要提醒部長當初在2022年的這個烏俄戰爭原本是說閃電 閃電戰結果他一閃 從2022閃到現在還沒有閃完"},{"start":176.42,"end":193.179,"text":"所以部長原本猜後來不猜我覺得我也能夠理解了這部長有也很難有了因為你也不是川普總統的經濟部長董事長即便你們是你們也會猜不到了"},{"start":194.488,"end":218.749,"text":"所以攀油啊 攀油你怎麼去面對我們就是要做 剛剛秦副部長所講的就要做萬全的準備 這個我接受所以現在經濟部跟台電面對每一衝突 赫普之海只要封鎖要實施短期調度 賣電了 賣了電廠那你的短期要作為這個多元備援方案分散天然氣供應風險強化這整個電力嘛 對不對"},{"start":222.152,"end":234.275,"text":"那我就是要請教部長跟曾董事長嘛你所謂的短期三個月就5、6、7嘛對不對好那5、6、7未來會不會8、9、10未來會不會10、11、12現在沒有這樣的規劃沒有這樣的規劃所以就5、6、7那一天我有詢問市長嘛處長沒有這樣的規劃就是到5、6、7嘛好5、6、7就截止了"},{"start":253.6,"end":270.396,"text":"就5、6、7就截止短期嘛短期就5、6、7嘛5、6、7之後就不會再動了跟台電的合約台塑的合約對就是所以不會再簽下去了目前就是5、6、7目前5、6、7嘛會不會再延嘛"},{"start":271.728,"end":277.35,"text":"目前沒有這樣的規劃除非戰爭真的又變激烈就像烏克戰爭這樣嘛對不對閃電變成一閃四年嘛那你會不會對於賣電的整個調動的電力請到這個衝擊之後又像烏克戰爭這樣"},{"start":291.448,"end":300.874,"text":"一年 延到四年不會你怎麼會不會那時候你不明是經濟部長啊你或許是行政院的院長啊你或許是中華民國的下任總統啊"},{"start":302.915,"end":322.204,"text":"怎麼不會你用猜的還是你未卜先知我們跟他合約是有一個那個他有那個你剛剛合約就是短期的五六七嘛那你的合約你因應每一戰爭的情況之下你要完全準備之後你會不會八九十嘛不會那你就馬上跟答我我說不會"},{"start":323.344,"end":344.856,"text":"對 因為操作許可是到2027年嘛所以他就不能 即便是我們要也不行操作許可是到2027 即便是要也不行但是你的5、6、72027不到 這個8、9、10不到2027啊對不對 11、12也不到2027啊所以你的短期不叫做三個月啊你的短期 你猜"},{"start":345.956,"end":365.061,"text":"可能會再多增加一劑你猜可能又會再多增加一劑那為什麼叫短期報告委員因為戰爭一開發一發生的時候我們當然要做多元的韌性的調度跟準備但是過了三個月以後我想我們又比較有時間可以做比較充分的調度"},{"start":366.101,"end":387.273,"text":"那也不一定要用到這個...戰爭開打也不是現在這個時間啦齁然後他也有挺我的這樣的一個協議然後照理講在協議過程裡面我那天有特別拜託處長趕快跟你們回報快速的去盤整不要再想到已經整個停機的賣1跟賣3嘛不要再想到那個地方而且部長你自己講的咧賣了機組重啟將減少台中電廠用煤我們運營人的睡覺比較少"},{"start":393.809,"end":414.672,"text":"所以台中降載那雲林再來徵用麥一跟麥三來用煤發電你覺得對於雲林的人這樣交代的過去嗎不是我們是承諾這你講的啊這你講的啊降低中火用煤量啊所以在中火降低用煤量對於雲林就是要增加用煤量嘛基本上邏輯就這樣這不正常這不用猜嘛"},{"start":415.373,"end":433.587,"text":"我是要跟補充說補充你處理工序處理事情的延期和應變的領域其實我都很敬佩但是這種的思維模式是不對的它原本是賣一二三二就已經拆掉了剩下一三這個地方到二六二七就結束了嘛對不對好 為什麼還去徵用這個地方根本"},{"start":434.608,"end":456.814,"text":"不需要做這種事情全國的這個發電廠基本上裡面都可以去做盤整去做調度你為什麼唯獨要去思考到這個地方而且過去過去這一個電廠是最糟糕的過去還在燒什麼石油膠這個石油膠當時民進黨之爭之後結果馬上把它廢止掉了沒了是不是說話了呢"},{"start":458.519,"end":477.908,"text":"所以現在沒有 燒完之後還必須要整理五公告才禁止燃燒石油膠來作為能源的使用對 現在已經禁止了你過去了 石油膠連印度金融也用的東西一起自來位然後我們持續在燒不修法 還是持續啊那為什麼還要重蹈覆轍 還要糾起"},{"start":479.549,"end":491.498,"text":"這個地方過去的痛苦那完全是因為戰爭的發生所以我們要讓台中的戰爭不變就對了繼續來修明這邏輯怎麼說的過去 但是你又說得好真的這門也有 邏輯上不通啦邏輯上不通 主席你站上來了 我拜託你你跟董事長都是一個很會做事 然後做人也做好的人拜託一下 你如果這麼好你不要對我們香港人不好 這樣好不好"},{"start":510.369,"end":516.431,"text":"這可以休,這不休息,一瓶就降災,一瓶你還要休起來,你就是對我們分量不好啊沒有,這個還是要感謝雲林啦謝謝啦,謝謝你的感謝,感謝就是不要再想賣一跟賣三我堅決反對到底,拜託部長,拜託政統,謝謝,謝謝主席,謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168752","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168752","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5880b40c5769f1c7f91f1b3eab924563685f3e6e8cff855c95c54bff74e4161429c243362692245ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"12:13:45 - 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得這樣的一個態度我也肯定因為我還是強調河安絕對是最重要河安絕對最重要本席的選區有河一場雖然河一場現在是沒有在重啟的範圍內但是河安一樣重要"},{"start":121.601,"end":136.351,"text":"好那但是另外一個部分是說那至少我們要用多久的時間你說沒有辦法加速那總是我們有一個預估的時間到目前為止有沒有所謂的時間表就什麼時候會審理完畢過程是不是簡單說明一下"},{"start":138.803,"end":157.021,"text":"我对实际表有很大的方面,有台电方面,要看它的报告的进度,报告老化审查的进度等等,还有我们对审查意见的回复等等,"},{"start":158.124,"end":182.042,"text":"還有我們現場視察的結果很多因素會影響到你是審查機關所以如果說台電送出來之後有缺失你要求更正改進台電有辦法更正有辦法改進再送進來你們再審查所以目前是沒有時間表因為世界各國核電廠重啟也不會有說大約平均多久時間可以重啟完畢"},{"start":182.975,"end":191.075,"text":"是的 當然不會有一個固定時間表好 那就本席的了解你們會用多幾次的限定審查"},{"start":193.24,"end":215.208,"text":"因為你現在可能是4月5月就要去限地審查是不是?所以已經安排了跟委員說明台電公司要提交的報告很多包括他先提出再再運轉計畫那後續還有台電公司所說的自主安全檢查就是法規規定的老化冰箍這些這部分的報告都還沒送到會裡面來所以確實要"},{"start":217.829,"end":234.423,"text":"審查時間還要看台電公司什麼時候提交給會裡面來審查那台電公司對會裡面的技術審查的意見回覆這些我都可以理解因為其實我們就拿最簡單的比喻來講譬如說一般的民間建築好之後要申請使用執照"},{"start":235.003,"end":256.409,"text":"我也沒有辦法要求主管機關是說你什麼時候要發使用執照嘛一定是他把所有文件包括消防檢查包括什麼機電檢查全部都送進來合格之後你才有辦法核發嘛所以我這邊不會為難我只是說要求核安會一定要本於專業來去做把關可是另外一個部分"},{"start":257.509,"end":281.519,"text":"昨天賴清德總統也接見這個環團其實重啟核電這件事情為什麼說民進黨政府轉彎就是因為賴清德總統在兩個月前他先在一個公開的場合講是說台電已經要送進來了所以說大家才嘩然就說原來現在民進黨政府核電轉彎即便事後他又講說沒有還是要有三前提但是現在台電主動送進來是事實而且這是主動送進來"},{"start":284.04,"end":302.405,"text":"賴總統昨天還是在重提說要三條件一個和安無虞一個核廢有解一個社會有共識那我想要再就教一下我們專業的意見和安無虞沒有問題大家都同意甚至我更要求是說不能加速我們應該要本於專業和安處理"},{"start":303.465,"end":327.959,"text":"社會有共識到目前為止現在百分之六十七十的民調都已經站在支持台灣要有穩定物價核能發電的一個立場上面因為核電是低碳穩定低價的發電方式那另外核廢油解這一個就是大家現在在想是說到底現在民進黨政府有沒有在做最終處置場的選定"},{"start":330.919,"end":352.055,"text":"還是這一題就是大家打模糊場主委因為我們現在合費料 合一的合費料還在放在我們合一廠啊然後告訴我們都是這個叫做中級主政廠中間的中啊 不是最終的中啊那大家想說那合費有解你的意思是賴清的政府你要找"},{"start":353.648,"end":362.959,"text":"從上任蔡英文政府的時候就要講說要2025廢核家園要找最終處成場最終極的處成場那到目前為止有在做討論嗎"},{"start":364.738,"end":387.832,"text":"包委員 那個目前經濟部他是先著重幹事儲存的作業那後續呢他也成立了專案辦公室在做選址的工作這個幾年前就做了但本身現在想問的是賴清德總統一而再再而三面對到這個國際壓力大家都有"},{"start":388.852,"end":403.167,"text":"或是說我們能源議題大家都需要用電這個本期看中明依舊講所以我是用一個很理性跟很科學的方式來去講但我想問的是說到底現在政府有沒有做實事就是說他一直強調核廢有解那他的解是什麼意思"},{"start":405.58,"end":431.473,"text":"核安會的網站我也去看過核安會也有一個網站報告是講是說國際現在大多數的核廢料採取最後有一個方法叫做深度挖掘有沒有就是找一個地方然後但是很深幾百公尺的挖掘讓它跟民眾土壤水質都沒有任何這個是核安會官網上面的一個報告一個說明那我們有沒有想說這樣的方式"},{"start":432.293,"end":458.723,"text":"那還有就是說這樣的方式還是要面臨到一個問題是說那到底位置在哪裡到目前有沒有做這樣的討論那個台電是有一個計畫在執行中那最大的問題還是剛才委員所提到的選址的問題因為有選址這樣的一個困難所以經濟部他才成立專案辦公室先來做立法工作然後後續來推動那有在推動有進度嗎"},{"start":459.743,"end":481.791,"text":"不然我覺得賴清德總統這樣子每一次都跟我們講這我都已經快會背了但是哪一件事情不重要可是重點是不能每一次都用口號講完然後這一題永遠無解可是我們核三場持續已經又要再重啟那這樣不就自打嘴巴嗎就是說一方面那個時候恐嚇人民講說核廢料很恐怖啊最好是放你家放我家"},{"start":482.728,"end":499.554,"text":"有沒有然後就是很反制的做法好那這個也另一個部分但另外一個部分是說現在重啟核三廠是事實嘛那重啟核三廠已經報進來了那我們同步核廢有解那解要怎麼解"},{"start":501.121,"end":521.872,"text":"還是你們的審查會不會審查是說那核三廠如果說再發電那現在核一廠核二廠我們的核廢料放哪裡最終儲存廠在哪裡這會不會列為我們審查的項目之一在我們的剛才講的那個後段的安全審查裡面我們有叫台電公司要說明這部分"},{"start":522.412,"end":550.925,"text":"要說明這部分對所以台電在核三廠重啟的時候就會把最終儲存廠給整個核廢料管理含最終處置這部分他們要說明但目前本席的理解他還是打馬虎眼啊他們只有講說中啊中間的中啊所以說像本席的核一廠裡面也有啊乾式儲存的相關還是放在核一廠啊但是最終在哪裡最終的終FinalFinal到底要用什麼樣的方式沒有啊"},{"start":553.148,"end":565.534,"text":"方式其實是跟剛才委員所提的這個方式是一樣的但是困難的地方就是選址solution有但是location沒有是不是這樣"},{"start":567.227,"end":585.808,"text":"好 主委 本席這樣講完啦 我只想是說就是我們很理性科學因為我很敬重您願意再投入公職來為大家來服務但本席的提到真的 如果說真的有機會的話也跟上位者有權利決策的人真的也建議"},{"start":586.869,"end":596.997,"text":"就是說要務實大家務實面對但不是每一次面對環團講一套好聽的話然後面對產業講一套然後面對在野黨講一套"},{"start":601.35,"end":619.071,"text":"我是剛剛說這樣子就不是一個健康的態度所以我一開眾秘密就很肯定您今天願意講出說核電有助電價穩定這樣的一個說法因為這跟國人跟國際上的認知確實是相符合這也是現在國際上的趨勢好不好 有沒有補充 各位"},{"start":621.339,"end":634.264,"text":"是的 謝謝各位 謝謝委員關心好 那就感謝本席會持續追這議題那我也關心我們的合一廠的最終核廢料的部分那我也希望真的我們一起務實地往前邁進好不好 謝謝好 謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"168747","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168747","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5880b40c5769f1d985a859ad2e8914a31e0b39ac3e37f85c95c54bff74e41695517a371d75927e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"馬文君","委員發言時間":"12:05:14 - 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麻煩請嚴主委請主委教委好主委好 主委就剛剛葉委員其實他提到的這個部分我們想也呼應一下因為現在我們在這麼多年來其實大家在薪資上面的結構其實也不斷在調整"},{"start":27.597,"end":55.779,"text":"那尤其我們在軍中養成也非常不容易那對於有很多其實可以持續報效我們國家或者相關的這樣子的一個可能自己在學養上面特別專業的部分其實我們政府單位不能不可以好好的去運用他們也很可惜所以就這個部分我們也希望可以據理力爭因為那個天花板真的是不合理就這個部分我們也希望可以謝謝各位"},{"start":58.3,"end":72.989,"text":"那另外我們想要針對這個退府會每年對於所屬單位的交通以及運輸設備我們都會去檢討太儲然後當然也有新增的那我們現在太儲的依據大概是什麼連線或是騎乘"},{"start":76.977,"end":92.426,"text":"就是一般都是依這樣子去看嘛那我們在本席在退伏會公務預算書裡面的公務車輛明細表裡面發現我們在108、109年購置的車輛大概已經規劃在115年要汰換可是我們反觀還有97年、98年購置的車輛還要持續使用這個到底是什麼樣的狀況會有這種現象"},{"start":107.165,"end":108.829,"text":"我們依據行政院規定的啦我們現在看到救護車它的使用年限規定是7年你大概就可以汰換"},{"start":118.134,"end":143.806,"text":"可是我們發現好了在退補會所屬的榮家裡面我現在針對的本期針對的是我們的消防車消防車對救護車救護車就是我們所屬的榮家目前有近16輛的救護車已達到汰換的時限就是已經都超過7年以上而且其中更有2輛已經超過10年為什麼不汰換"},{"start":147.372,"end":163.777,"text":"報告委員好 我是救養處我們目前盤點我們16所農家有26輛那26輛都在10年以下那我們現在就是汰除的基準是以10年還有維修如果說成本過高那我們用這個方式來做汰換"},{"start":165.489,"end":188.299,"text":"可是我們剛剛有提到 就是說超過7年以上你總共有26輛嘛 可是超過7年以上已經有16輛了而且其實像行政院它規定是在7年以上你就必須要汰換 就可以汰換啦衛福部它是訂定相關的規定喔 10年以上一定要汰除掉"},{"start":189.139,"end":201.388,"text":"可是我們有兩輛超過十年了我們也沒有太換啊尤其在這一次你已經有編列相關的預算可是他卻沒有檢討因為為什麼會特別提到這個因為救護車他一輛在屏東一輛在彰化因為救護車是單身第一線救人的任務如果因為太過老舊或者他的零件故障拋錨等等因素而延誤到這些病患的送醫時機後果不堪設想"},{"start":216.718,"end":226.824,"text":"尤其像我們的榮家其實他大概很多都是年紀比較大的這樣子的一個住民所以就這個部分我們為什麼沒有把它納入去考量這個在衛福部救護車車領超過10年這是要強制淘汰的102年已經有相關的規定公告了高委員我們下去立刻檢討辦理"},{"start":240.68,"end":266.57,"text":"好 那就這個部分因為它畢竟是救人的我們看到有很多我們在這一次的預算裡面它有相關的機關 主管管或社區服務組長使用的不管是機車或汽車我們都已經要新購或者要汰換那救護車的部分我們希望馬上可以去檢討去修正 好不好所以我們下去馬上檢討好 謝謝那另外就是要請教"},{"start":269.031,"end":276.456,"text":"主委的就是我們在提升這個失智照顧量能的部分長照萬我園區這是我們今年退府會推動的重要施政的計畫那我們總經費其實從原來的十億一千萬已經調增到十六億八千多萬"},{"start":288.504,"end":310.73,"text":"他調整的那個金額也非常高那騎乘也從109年到112年本來112年全部可能都要完工已經延長到115年那其中可能還是有比如說板橋跟八德甚至要延到116年那目前的狀況現在相關的設備或人員他準備的如何因為可能都很快要完成了嘛"},{"start":316.907,"end":332.164,"text":"報導委員關心的十字園區現在目前就是剛剛趙委員講到一個是八德一個板橋八德是在四月然後板橋到六月然後明年完工然後110年1月啟用"},{"start":333.826,"end":352.483,"text":"那麼到今年3月整體的預算執行率是81那人力方面我們護理人力從今年的1月1號開始行政院核定從委外轉為我們約用總共合了338元這338元是總數338元依據我們暫床率全部都到的話是338元人力但我們現在實際暫床率是80所以"},{"start":361.31,"end":378.068,"text":"目前是257个人那造福人力是2224所以现行的这个造福量能占床率80.4%它是可以满足农家机构照顾的需求可以满足的那后续依占床的状况我们再做调整"},{"start":378.688,"end":384.133,"text":"對不過主委剛剛你現在你剛剛提到的可能是現況可是現況其實已經有一些人力不足的狀況我們先來看看之前我們退府會的報告裡面說明到115年年底退府會各容家總失智總床位會達到1145床"},{"start":400.766,"end":412.672,"text":"這個會是我們全台辦理失智照護最大的專業收容單位因為我們有很多新的或者有擴大擴建的部分那我們的總重數會是我們全台灣收容最多的這樣一個單位可是我們反觀其實我們可能在硬體上面的建制都已經完成了可是我們長期照護最重要的"},{"start":424.899,"end":440.615,"text":"這個重點其實是在人的部分所以我們看到這個容家的照護人力比如說像護理師跟照服員的這個人力要從哪裡來因為你增加了床位然後有這麼大的一個容納量可是我們的人力"},{"start":441.736,"end":460.109,"text":"要從哪裡來我們現在看看剛剛主委有提到就是說我們已經改用約用制度16所農家裡面約用護理師缺員到現在目前為止是近二分之一的有兩家然後近三分之一的有五家"},{"start":462.094,"end":470.441,"text":"少了二分之一的大概有屏東容家跟白河容家然後近三分之一的也有五家有板橋、台北、八德、彰化跟花蓮而且這個需求數在增加當中缺口數也在擴大"},{"start":477.426,"end":487.993,"text":"所以就這個部分我們還是希望我們在整個建制都快要完成的情況之下我們要怎麼樣提升這樣的人力因為我們還是要在十字園區的這個計畫裡面它已經要開始執行那確保相關的人員的穩定性跟品質確保住民要受到照顧的權益跟安全其實這是要一併去考量的那這些人力的缺口數我們現在有什麼做法或想法嗎"},{"start":507.726,"end":536.091,"text":"因為現在很多我們看到像包括種種體系啊或者很多其他的醫院的體系也好或者其他民間的單位或者其他的單位其實在做長照在做這些實質的照顧也好其實他們不管在薪資上面或者在福利上面比如說提供住宿啦或者是很多很多的福利在吸引或者要留這樣子相關的人才那我們有什麼樣的配套措施"},{"start":536.571,"end":558.582,"text":"根據趙委報告我們主要是把薪資待遇能夠做調整能夠提高現在目前轉為約用之後大概護理師跟照護員薪資都有增加大概到3000到4000左右那根據剛剛趙委的指導我們依站床的各農家實際狀況再來吸收招募這些護理師或照護員"},{"start":559.282,"end":585.64,"text":"對 主委我們現在要討論的是我們可能增加的薪資是從原來我們自己的比較上面去調升可是我們相對的還要去跟其他的未來還要跟其他的醫院醫療院所也好或者其他的單位也好其實也要跟他們做比較當我們的福利還有我們的薪資相對來說沒有比人家好的時候我們要留忍就很困難像我剛剛提到的你缺員"},{"start":586.761,"end":606.993,"text":"二分之一三分之一的所在都有那現在你已經又把它擴大這樣子的一個床位數我們要怎麼樣即使去彌補這樣的人力缺口這個可能也我們要一併的去考量的那這個部分也請今天可能沒有辦法很即時的可以提供比較明確的一個做法跟說法會後請提供相關的書面資料怎麼樣去因應這個部分"},{"start":611.836,"end":630.084,"text":"或者去參考人家怎麼樣去做這樣子的一個調整以因應我們在很快的接下來要開始執行的這樣子的一個計畫內容上面不要因為人力的缺口造成我們在執行上面會碰到很多自愛難行的地方好不好是 謝謝召委我們會強化誘因好然後把資料送給召委好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168746","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168746","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5880b40c5769f1c6335b78f6381d1af38d440c98c629e75c95c54bff74e416d6989c2027b9690b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"12:05:28 - 12:14:19","影片長度":"00:08:51","會議時間":"2026-04-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請環境部部長、國家科學及技術委員會、交通部、經濟部、內政部、農業部、衛生福利部、國家發展委員會就「我國氣候變遷調適現況檢討與全球調適目標接軌之推動情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查中華民國115年度中央政府總預算案關於環境部主管預算案。(公務及非營業特種基金預算案)\n三、審查中華民國115年度中央政府總預算案直轄市及縣市政府一般性補助款環境部主管部分預算。\n四、審查環境部函送財團法人環境資源研究發展基金會等4家財團法人115年度預算書案。\n\n【預算案僅詢答，115年4月30日下午5時截止收案】\n【專題報告及討論事項綜合詢答】\n\n【4月22日及23日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-04-22","start_time":"2026-04-22T12:05:28+08:00","end_time":"2026-04-22T12:14:19+08:00","duration":531,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":5,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-5-26-7"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.14784375,"end":11.708468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.24846875,"end":13.294718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.400343750000001,"end":16.85534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.960968750000003,"end":17.53034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.36159375,"end":18.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.08721875,"end":18.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.25159375,"end":19.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.84221875,"end":20.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.36534375,"end":21.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.69846875,"end":22.59284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.47034375,"end":43.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.783468750000004,"end":46.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.18409375,"end":56.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.697218750000005,"end":81.72284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":80.49096875000001,"end":81.94221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.88721875,"end":84.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":84.76034375,"end":85.30034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":86.19471875,"end":95.42534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":95.83034375000001,"end":102.34409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":102.93471875,"end":108.50346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":109.44846875,"end":114.42659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.78096875000001,"end":115.84409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":116.41784375,"end":118.42596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":118.71284375,"end":120.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":121.02471875,"end":122.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.56034375,"end":122.81346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":122.81346875000001,"end":123.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.02846875,"end":130.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.05284375000002,"end":135.55409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.14471875,"end":136.88721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.24159375000002,"end":138.32159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.50721875000002,"end":138.84471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.97971875000002,"end":145.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.05034375,"end":146.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.18534375000002,"end":168.98346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.11846875,"end":177.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.38721875000002,"end":189.60471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.87471875,"end":197.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.14346875,"end":204.64034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.84284375000001,"end":208.87596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.29784375000003,"end":250.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.08471875,"end":250.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.50659375,"end":252.04221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.04221875000002,"end":252.36284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.36284375000002,"end":252.37971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.37971875000002,"end":271.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.69346875,"end":308.47221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.00534375,"end":272.20784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.71596875,"end":288.34034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.55659375000005,"end":310.66596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.13846875,"end":363.24846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":363.90659375,"end":368.59784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.96909375,"end":371.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.63534375,"end":373.82909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.30159375000005,"end":376.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.37284375,"end":378.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.09409375,"end":380.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.54534375000003,"end":383.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.03846875000005,"end":384.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.08909375,"end":386.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":388.03784375000004,"end":397.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01",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我就要來放 我要買一個收容棟放喔 就要放在城口 等到需要拿出來真的要上戰場了 哇 已經分解掉了自動分解了 還沒上戰場就分解掉了就很諷刺啦 這是怎麼樣呢 就表示說"},{"start":216.124,"end":221.991,"text":"他們在設計上是不是要更符合整個農作農作的一個習慣要怎樣去調整他可能要技術要讓他長久的時間才會有分解的狀況這個以技術上"},{"start":231.081,"end":249.962,"text":"可以去做像我們現在穿鞋子有一些都是屬於會分解的很久沒穿它會分解但是你如果持續有在穿它就不會分解現在技術真的是很厲害都有辦法達到這樣可是這一塊在農用的這一端看起來就是沒有被充分利用到這個很可惜"},{"start":250.643,"end":274.249,"text":"我是覺得這個部分可以去檢討這個我也去考察過台灣本地就已經有這種公司他有這樣的能力那過去就是委員說到的市場機制不夠大家市場沒有打開那我們會想用這次這個機會來跟農業部來談一下把這樣的台灣已經有了這個技術可以鼓勵農民來做生意總是可以媒合嘛現在地方青農很多找青農朋友來"},{"start":275.449,"end":287.332,"text":"說我們環境部也有怎樣的計畫我們去推動讓他們可以在成本沒有落差太大的情況之下讓他們去使用永固把意見回饋回來技術就會再提升我們還跟農業部來合作第二個就是剛剛講農畝的回收回到農畝的回收那我跟這些農友在講"},{"start":296.694,"end":322.371,"text":"那我們現在嘉義省政府翁縣長我們有設立了一個回收場龍某可以去那邊做回收未來就是可以供再利用這個方向是對的但是 農民要參加農民要參加哇 那個議院也跑不出來幼嬰也跑不出來那為什麼會跑不出來呢因為他龍某回收必須要要求農民他要把那個龍某整個清乾淨水洗"},{"start":325.333,"end":329.356,"text":"所以這個對農民來說他無形的成本是提高的他原本最原始他可能就是說我只要請人家來處理農業的一般廢棄物他一棟差不多三千五千塊那是他本來的成本我現在這個農務拿來我還要去水洗我還要去整個把它這個折好"},{"start":351.374,"end":352.955,"text":"那身份責因為那東西要再請人工那身份就再管起來所以他們對於配合農牧回收這個塑膠回收的這件事誘因不出來"},{"start":364.353,"end":383.019,"text":"誘因不出來 所以我也進一步 我就去找這個回收商在公司這邊 我就又跟他溝通說你不就創造誘因給 創造誘因給農民啊 你可以收多少啊結果他告訴我 他他們告訴我的原因啦 事實上這個都一環卡一環喔他們現在說的關鍵"},{"start":388.984,"end":402.263,"text":"他現在講的這個關鍵就是說因為他現在這些東西回收來放在那裡準備就是他這邊只能做堆置可是他同樣的場域他就沒有辦法把它做為分解為量"},{"start":404.671,"end":424.796,"text":"他同樣的場域沒辦法做這件事這一端他就等於得再去委託第三人哇 抱歉真正有利潤的是在這一端把塑膠變成涼肉這一端才是有利潤的但是這一端又是另外的公司了他跟農民沒有對接所以他也不可能在這一端有利潤的他把"},{"start":425.757,"end":439.393,"text":"他創造誘因給農民那你現在叫這個他只是在負責堆製的回收商在負責堆製的回收商叫他創造誘因給農民他也擠不出利潤因為真正的利潤是要後面買到塑膠變成蠟的這塊"},{"start":442.797,"end":455.704,"text":"所以我的意思就是說,這個土地利用,既然我們這裡都同意要讓它做堆置那為什麼不可以在同樣的場域,就讓它同樣,它那些要來歸的,一些建築、小房子,讓它可以直接同樣的場域把這些塑膠把它轉換回去"},{"start":464.628,"end":474.435,"text":"那這個中間又要求說,那你中間如果有增加的利潤,你必須要回饋給農民,讓農民有辦法有這樣的誘因,他們去配合,他們去配合說他要怎樣,農民收回來,他們都怕回收,他們如果不怕回收,就是拿去分化綠燒"},{"start":483.362,"end":486.724,"text":"我剛才說的他們一棟開清五坑的鐵基分化路線對他們來說比較貴我們要怎麼把這個誘因利用剛剛講的這樣的一個後端的處理機制創造誘因給前端的農民這個我覺得黃金部就應該要去想了那我剛剛也有講出目前的困境所在"},{"start":501.334,"end":520.569,"text":"好 委員這個部分我會來跟農業部來協商然後我們找出一些好的案例然後把這個機制把它建立起來對 農業部那邊可能就是卡土地的一個利用啦我覺得既然我們同意那裡已經可以堆置農磨是讓土地利用如果在這個部分鬆綁的話可以把這樣的一個農磨這樣的一個塑膠回收把它做得更加的落實更加徹底好不好好 我來努力好 謝謝委員好 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主席我們先請數位部林部長請速發部林部長"},{"start":20.193,"end":47.654,"text":"部長早部長我想一開始先討論一下我們剛剛那個臨時提案的部分其實先問一下就是數位部認不認同之前當然剛剛在有在提案裡面有討論到這個是當年國發發了篇文章介紹各國政府在探討制服部門經營這個粉絲專業這種像社群平台的時候有幾個指標一個是基本資料社群廣度社群互動社群關係跟貼文營運等等這五個構面這樣子的一個概念你們書發部現在認不認同這樣子的一個分類"},{"start":52.297,"end":73.669,"text":"因為這個是基本上是認同的今天會提出來就是因為其實我覺得很多你們應該也有注意到很多民眾也講這件事情就是說其實政府的資訊政府各個單位各機關大家都有或是被要求要去有臉書的時候設立臉書有IG的時候設立IG然後有YOUTUBE的時候設立YOUTUBE"},{"start":74.269,"end":91.014,"text":"是所以每個單位至少可能一個最多可能四個到五個社群平台是它的資訊是非常的碎片化是所以對民眾的困擾是說我要找相關資料的時候我可能我不一定能夠馬上找到我要的資訊那對數位部的期待是說你們有沒有機會去解決這個問題因為其實我們"},{"start":93.039,"end":109.161,"text":"進來的公務人員大家經過高考普考進來之後特考進來之後他的本職專長理論上他應該是專注在所謂行政業務上面在各項法令解釋上面所以現在變成是各單位為了去應付說我要有這個社群媒體我要去要求我各單位"},{"start":110.262,"end":124.709,"text":"好一點的可能部裡面一個或是一個團隊那可憐一點的可能一個科一個處裡面一定要一個所謂的新進的人員去擔任所謂數位小編去擔任這個小編的工作就他跟他本來的這個工作的職能還是有一定程度的落差"},{"start":125.589,"end":151.401,"text":"更有錢的當然外包嘛去找行銷公司去處理等等那我問說其實數位部有沒有機會去做一個相關的整合把先把盤點一下各單位到底目前有多少的那種所謂的殭屍型的賬號或是沒有沒有根本沒有在互動的或他的他的這個點閱率非常低的這種做一個盤點包含去去做去做去做這樣的整合之後把維護的成本跟人力更集中去做管理你們願意做這個你們可以做"},{"start":152.441,"end":167.137,"text":"可以做這件事情嗎謝謝委員提醒我們會我們應該可以做這件事情那也跟委員報告事實上通常因為我是來自產業界通常產業界會有一些退場機制那就是有一些那個不好的產品或者是不好的那個"},{"start":168.218,"end":194.859,"text":"推展狀況不好的網頁都會退場那當然在行政我們在政府部門裡面這個機制就是說會有一些政治上的考量但是我也是認為說應該就像委員所講的有些其實已經關注程度不是那麼高什麼應該有一種退場的機制這樣子的話整個環境會比較健全而且對於我們政府單位的公務人員來講他的負擔也不會這麼重"},{"start":195.74,"end":218.281,"text":"好 謝謝部長 我想希望大家對數位部的期待 當你們成立的時候當然大家對你們有不同的想像 但是至少這個你們作為這個政府機關 這個政府龐大組織管理數位的這部分 應該是大家共同的期待所以我們希望說這部分還是由你們來整合啦 好不好是 謝謝部長留著 繼續我們請那個NCC的陳代理主委 一起過來討論這個事情喔"},{"start":220.629,"end":242.185,"text":"我想我們今天這個提出的修法幫電信管理法他們討論到這個衛星發展的問題預算或說各項這個組織單位到底我國這種衛星通訊這個產業發展到底是NCC管呢還是數位部管呢還是太空中心管還是其他單位在管到底誰在管你們兩位可以"},{"start":244.528,"end":262.86,"text":"NCC管制電信事業是提供一般民眾電信服務的衛星業者至於國內衛星的產業發展 比如說它的供應鏈或發射器材或相關的一些東西不在NCC的資產範圍內"},{"start":266.714,"end":291.548,"text":"我想委員主要的疑問應該是在於產業推動那產業推動分幾個部分第一個就是說台灣事實上在國際的這個衛星產業鏈裡面佔有非常重要地位很多的那個產業鏈都在台灣那這個部分因為只是提供那個零組件還有那個就是這些component這個是經濟部在管的那發展自己的衛星系統是由國科會的TASA"},{"start":292.188,"end":306.142,"text":"就是太空中心那邊主管的但是韌性在使用上面等於說速發部這邊負責的主要是要透過使用這些產品來加強台灣的韌性其實是這樣你可以看一下我們先"},{"start":307.363,"end":333.203,"text":"不管我們看旁邊兩個日本跟韓國日本當然他們自己是由首相親自擔任宇宙開發戰略本部的部長去做相關的整合工作那韓國呢是開個CASA宇宙航空廳把過去不同的單位做一個整合因為韓國其實跟我們很像韓國以前當然也是分散在各部會裡面有像有一個像NCC的單位有一個像說服單位那現在把它整合起來成為同一個單位那未來我國的這個衛星所謂的衛星發展不管是要"},{"start":333.883,"end":355.029,"text":"先待會討論修法的問題但是在這個發展衛星發展的過程裡面有沒有可能做一個整合的一個部會出來還是有一個主責單位因為現在就像剛剛部長所回應的嘛包含主委提到了嘛現在等於這件事情就衛星產業或是所謂太空產業這個事情它事實上在各單位裡面是那包含說預算的部分分配"},{"start":357.179,"end":382.125,"text":"有研發有應用的監理補助的部分可以跟TASA申請像數化部也可以申請經濟部也可以申請產業升級那管理的時候又是NCC在管理然後再來是驗證的時候TASA要求的是活動安全那數化部要求的是數位認証跟治安NCC要求的是電磁干擾跟通訊品質所以這個產業在發展的過程裡面他要去驗證他要去申請他跑行政流程的時候他必須跟各單位"},{"start":382.825,"end":400.315,"text":"去討論去磨合然後這個事情會造成什麼結果這個事情造成我們產業的發展一定會比別人慢一點點吧因為我要先比如說我可能先看數位部先看ACC的電信管理法我符不符合電信管理法我符合之後來跟數位部討論數位部討論OK之後去找經濟部討論"},{"start":402.876,"end":413.378,"text":"所以在整個流程裡面我們的這個產業就會比別人落後一點所以說在這個整合的工作上面有沒有機會未來不管是數位部或NCC到底誰可以做一個主管的機關"},{"start":414.854,"end":435.808,"text":"跟委員報告,了解委員所關切的這個事情但是我們也必須說,因為台灣的產業的特性就是做水平的分工全世界只有少數,應該就只有一家就是STARLINK它自己發展衛星,而且自己發射衛星其他的大部分的公司,像說"},{"start":436.949,"end":461.442,"text":"Amazon Leo 他在發射衛星的時候也是找那個 SpaceX就是那個 Starlink 的母公司去發射的那在台灣的話這個分工會非常的細譬如說一座那個印刷電路板的做那個 module 的那基本上台灣大概都是在做這種比較是分工的這個狀況那台灣自己到目前為止並沒有那個專業的衛星發射的公司"},{"start":462.903,"end":480.956,"text":"確實就是說這就是我剛剛提到因為我今天如果假設今天有人想要做今天如果Elon Musk如果在台灣他搞不好也做不出Starlink了啦是我們講從預算來看這個現象就是說今天數位部你也編了3878萬要進行這個國際衛星服務上央落地的這個先期研究"},{"start":481.756,"end":507.853,"text":"那NCC呢也編了830萬說要做這個衛星通訊新網路形態的監理政策就是說不管是NCC也好 SWIFT也好大家都希望說去研究怎麼樣讓這些所謂的國際上的這個衛星能夠落地但實際上發生的就是大家都編了預算也都希望做這個事情但實務上發展的就是實務上就是現階段大家要用所謂的衛星呢它必須透過中華電信然後現在也只有one web可以正常來使用"},{"start":508.573,"end":531.463,"text":"它沒有辦法像我們剛剛包含說其他委員包含軍線委員和其他委員展示的你去日本或去國外你去Costco你去路邊的商店你就可以直接買到衛星接收設備它可以自己來使用就是台灣什麼時候今天我們提這個所謂電信管理法的修法我們的終極目標或它的期待就是希望說回到電信管理法本身電信管理法第一條你本身就是要鼓勵說"},{"start":533.244,"end":556.961,"text":"這個更開放多元的通訊更多的這個競爭的機制讓這個通訊能夠更加自由可是回到我們今天要所謂修的電信管理法第36條本身就是因為它有很多的限制導致這件事情不會發生我想問一下主委到底現在NC的態度因為你剛剛在回覆其他委員的時候一直跟我 我一直聽我在那邊一直提到一件事情是說你覺得現在不修法我們也可以做到"},{"start":557.822,"end":575.721,"text":"修法後本來期待的結果所以沒有修法的必要性目前是這個這樣子的政策的發展就是現行的條文36條不修正其實葉子願意來的話其實都不是問題因為其他one way都已經落地了那從"},{"start":579.125,"end":596.36,"text":"我們講的個案上的那家公司他雖然在過去數次對外表示說是我們的法規造成他的障礙但是我們在跟美方正式官方的討論像這次討論在ART的時候其實美方沒有這個需求這次公務員報告是確定的"},{"start":599.096,"end":622.1,"text":"主委有時候我覺得我們對話是要同一個頻率啦美方不一定有這個需求當然他市場很大他不一定要我這個市場我說美方沒有對台灣反映說你台灣這方面的法規有調適的需求來我們來問一下請問一下數位部部長如果今天你去跟Starlink談他現在是如果他如果他如果今天Elon Musk如果突然突然認為說他想要進台灣市場他就可以進來了嗎"},{"start":623.378,"end":647.28,"text":"事實上這個事情是這個答案是部分因為照理說他只要雙看他要不要讓步如果讓步依照現有的法規他那個股權不要超過50%的話他就可以進來可是他們就是很堅持就是說他們希望佔多數的股權那事實上之前我們台灣政府跟那個STAR LINK談判就卡在這個地方所以我們現在就是我們"},{"start":648.181,"end":669.138,"text":"現在也去詢問說STARLINK你到底如果說我們那個法律那個就是可以討論的話可以談的話你有沒有興趣結果那個STARLINK現在給我們的答案事實上是那個也算是蠻特別的他就說因為台灣的那個四G跟五G的人口覆蓋率已經超過百分之九九這張是我們討論過然後其他委員也跟你講過這個相關數據"},{"start":670.959,"end":695.107,"text":"但在你們的報告裡面也提到說 包含日本 韓國 荷蘭 菲律賓 越南也都是 他們也都有相關的限制 但他們同時已經開放跟可以使用了那到底 其實核心的問題就是說 那如果別的國家他們能夠做到在相關法律限制 也符合他們的條件 他們也有國安問題啊你說日本沒有國安問題嗎 他們當然也有國安問題啊 大家這麼近所以說 在這個限制同樣的情境之下 他們到底怎麼去做到開放 讓民眾"},{"start":696.167,"end":714.839,"text":"一般民眾他想用的時候他可以這個自由的選擇他需要的他一樣當然可以選擇local可以選擇本地電信沒問題但他如果今天他比如說住在偏鄉或他今天出國他要出外他能夠找他可以自己去買到這個設備那在家裡可以使用或是出國可以使用這樣子的情境在台灣什麼時候才會發生"},{"start":715.399,"end":731.156,"text":"所以這邊跟趙偉補充就是就以韓國好了韓國他能夠落地其實都是出籌碼交換或者前提的一些確保韓國用什麼來交換FTA日本用什麼交換"},{"start":732.503,"end":756.872,"text":"他在日本有落地Gateway歐洲國家外資全部開掉用什麼來交換用GDPR確保下的一些Gateway也是當地落地以上簡單補充因為Gateway跟本國業者參與其實是互為這個互補的可以讓這個國安的一些國安的確保還有通訊監察治安的部分可以達到實打實的一些掌握"},{"start":757.372,"end":775.04,"text":"好 主委這個部分我們希望說我們修法我們努力往這個方向來推動啦但是行政上面你要怎麼去談判或說你們覺得需要什麼條件我覺得在後續修法的過程裡面我們希望能夠好好的來討論終極的目標說這最後的一個結果我們還是希望說台灣的這個"},{"start":776.721,"end":793.15,"text":"通訊市場台灣的這個通訊自由或通訊品質能夠做到至少像國外這樣但是看到我可以自由的交易而不是說現在收到很多法規限制所以導致沒辦法使用這是我們提這個修法最初的這個初衷希望大家能夠支持以上好不好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168741","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168741","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5880b40c5769f12ae48017e3e69df263812774c6aab6af5c95c54bff74e416a1134436d75394885ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"11:54:27 - 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因為那邊算是還安全"},{"start":190.748,"end":207.618,"text":"我們現在從美國來的中油的比重已經60%會不會再提高所以說事實上對油的掌握台灣是比較OK的所以我們都維持在140天左右我們要不要參與"},{"start":209.195,"end":223.283,"text":"美國的原有Alaska的人員基礎設施四千多百億美金我們負擔三分之一 要不要現在是有這樣規劃 但是要實際看到什麼時候可以確定什麼時候可以確定什麼時候可以確定因為我們要看到計畫書才確認還沒來 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但是時間很短 行經時間很短這個部分 我想剛剛主委也有講到中國這些公務船隻 現在常態性的以執法的名義進入我們的限制水域這個已經不是所謂的灰色地帶了 這個已經是對"},{"start":92.043,"end":108.747,"text":"對我們的這個主權他對外釋放這樣不實的訊息讓這個海域的管轄的權利受到侵蝕這部分我想我們海巡署要有一個全套的一個因應的"},{"start":111.132,"end":130.487,"text":"我們本來就一套的全套的這個SOP另外一部分我們對於他洗澡部分我們會整個全程錄影收證然後向對國外媒體發聲也就是告訴其他國家我們的有門部分中國大陸如何的去這個用灰色地帶手段來清澆我們的金門跟馬祖地區好"},{"start":131.147,"end":155.019,"text":"那接下來我們進入今天的這個法案今天我們這個修正案這個第11條是有關施行日期這個我們就這兩條那主要是有關於這個我們這個海委會的這個組織法的第三條第三條就是修改一個字而已就是我們副組長從這個兩人我們希望增設到三人"},{"start":156.485,"end":164.736,"text":"那這個我們就這部分我想包括這些提案委員包括我個人我想我們會支持這個法案謝謝委員"},{"start":166.209,"end":192.957,"text":"因為我們海巡署這個業務實在是龐大而且多元剛剛副署長報告也講到我們主要在講我們的主要三大任務國安、治安跟平安海域的國家安全的防護海上治安以及所謂平安就是包括我們的"},{"start":194.838,"end":211.958,"text":"護魚跟這個海上救難 海上救難這些問題那除了這個以外你們其實還有其他的業務除了其他的業務你們其他牽涉到這些海洋污染防治也是你們的業務那這個海洋生態保育也是你們的業務海上廢棄物的管理也是你們的業務"},{"start":215.021,"end":228.271,"text":"這個整個統整歸屬於海上環保的也是你們的業務那另外這個還有一個部分是海上產業海洋產業海洋產業的發展也是你們的業務喔是對不對是所以除了你剛剛講的治安"},{"start":229.557,"end":250.317,"text":"國安、平安之外包括這些相關的海上環保業務包括這個海洋產業所以其實海巡署是業務實在是業務量是非常大所以這個我們過去因為我們這些所有的三級機關我看這行政院三級機關的副署長大概都是"},{"start":251.238,"end":265.414,"text":"我們警政署也是三個人我們調查局也是三個人水利署也是三個人只有我們海巡署還有權動署也是三位對 也是三個人只有我們這個海巡署是兩個人只有個人是支持這次的修法把這個我們兩個"},{"start":269.521,"end":286.62,"text":"我看人總全序部的這些報告他們也都支持我要了解的是說我們過去原本我們現在的兩個副署長就我剛剛所講這麼多的業務現在就兩個副署長他們有沒有督導上面的分工"},{"start":287.267,"end":315.761,"text":"我們督導的主要分工是根據他們的這個屬性像我們的許副署長他就負責企劃、督查、巡防、情報、後勤、通知跟特別行動中心的部分另外一個副署長是督查另外一個副署長是主要負責是巡防、通知、秘書、國會、人事跟這個特勤中心的部分那因為他們根據各的專長不同所以有負責任務但是他們在彼此之間又互相重疊"},{"start":317.262,"end":331.04,"text":"這個業務上不是按照不同的區域或不同的任務型態我們是按照任務的內容去區分任務內容去處理那未來如果在徵社會副署長我們大概會怎麼樣的分析"},{"start":333.902,"end":354.334,"text":"未來新的副署長的時候我們也是一樣會按照他的專長部分譬如我們針水進來他是具有高度的軍事背景的那我們就讓他去管平站轉換平站座位跟國防部對接的部分這個部分另外一部分我們的組織法的設計就是這個副署長的部分是軍警文並用也就是他的身份是可以進用的"},{"start":354.974,"end":376.96,"text":"我們海巡署最大的特色就是軍警穩並用是一個軍警穩並用的機關我等一下會跟你討論那我個人是希望就是說你們其實其實我們海巡署的業務這麼樣的繁雜我們其實除了我們剛剛講的說這個按照不同任務型態下去分工之外我個人也認為說應該針對不同各種不同的業務"},{"start":378.2,"end":401.758,"text":"你們也應該要讓副處長下去分工督導所以我想今天我看除了我們行政院版本以外其他有八個委員的提案這很難得的在一個法案上面所有包括我們院版包括所有八個委員提案全部都一模一樣一字不差"},{"start":402.638,"end":431.328,"text":"全部一模一樣一致不差所以我想這個表示說事實上本院大家所有委員對我們海巡署這個偵測一位副署長是有極高度的共識那最後一點點時間我就說這個我們重視這個副署長這個我們需求需要那我想本院委員大家也都支持我們全區的部委支持我們人總委支持但是我們的這個基層人力海巡署的基層人力"},{"start":432.248,"end":456.99,"text":"現在實在是大有問題大有問題我看我們的這個海巡署我們的這個預算員額我這邊有一個表預算員額逐年增加從108年一直到114年到去年7月來計算我們預算員額是每年都增加但是我們的缺額人數缺額人數也是每年增加"},{"start":458.137,"end":463.228,"text":"增加比例到現在缺額 我看我們預算員的缺額已經到一成了超過10%的缺額了"},{"start":467.309,"end":489.689,"text":"其實委員的資料可能是到114年其實我們到115年我們在114年的時候這個時候有加了三項佳績所以我們不管是我們的招募的大成立我們招募的大成立以前大概都是六成到七成我們今年已經提升到八成多 將近九成"},{"start":490.169,"end":500.438,"text":"那流益率的部分我們這次增加了7%所以我們現在的人員的增長是正成長而不是負成長從去年加擠之後現在是正成長那你把去年成長的數據是不是能夠提供給本席"},{"start":507.704,"end":536.437,"text":"另外部分就是在可能大家都關心艦艇的人力部分我們艦艇的人力部分是人事總署會根據我們艦艇交船的這個期程然後撥給我們這個多的預算源所以在人力上面我們像警察大學他是四年我們就預估在四年後的人力所以我們在四年警專是兩年我們就預估框多少所以我們在這個人力部分我們一年在警專跟警大部分我們一年增加了"},{"start":537.177,"end":554.817,"text":"請他們多招募一年增加200個這個這個因為剛剛副署長也自己有講這個我們海巡署非常特殊的我們是軍職警職文職並用的一個機關那軍職最多啦我們文職人員才不到10%文職人員很少所以這樣子"},{"start":555.898,"end":572.452,"text":"這個有關於人才我們這個缺額補足的部分這個就是兩大面向希望說副組長在未來要一個就是人才招募這部分我們要加強另外就是留才啦你不要讓人留不住啦留才大概這兩個事情這部分我會在後續再來跟副組長來討論好 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以上不是 處長你講那麼多都沒有聽清楚本席的問題然後回答啦好處長 今天我們在共同討論就是說我開宗明義講了嘛你的方向沒有問題但我現在要問的是就像如同很多的大專院校主委我相信應該都會有這個社會見解大專院校他也會去詢問是說他未來畢業生"},{"start":171.238,"end":198.198,"text":"三年內五年內他投入什麼樣的職場他的職場分佈如何以及他的平均薪資是什麼那本席現在這才重點嘛就是說你如果說能夠落實知道我們的退職官兵年輕的這些朋友他後續的就業是不是有跟我們現在推動的方向一致我們不能一直講說AI AI AI AI就到最後因為本席也確實我們跟民間很多的接觸我們很多的退職官兵他可能去擔任保全業"},{"start":199.339,"end":225.653,"text":"可能去擔任這些相關的物業等等我覺得這也很好職業沒有高低但我們現在方向所以本席現在才想請教是說我們有沒有針對我們這二類的退休官兵他的平均薪資或者是說產業分佈我們去做一個掌握那我們可能這樣因為今天是年度預算也因此本席才要的是說你有這樣的一個資料往這樣的方向代表是我們現在走的路是正確的加強處理加強運用來 簡單回答好"},{"start":229.142,"end":251.33,"text":"跟委員報告我們現在整個輔導他們退出於官兵再就業回到職場的平均薪資我們的資料調查都是在三萬三萬五以上至少有三萬五以上 平均都有產業最主要大家產業大部分還是以這個製造業服務批發零售業資源服務業為主"},{"start":257.096,"end":281.364,"text":"分佈的比例這個再請給本席一個資料既然已經有好那這樣就請今天看是下班前或是三天內給本席這樣相關的資料我們再來做一個追蹤因為數據才會說話數據才是我們這樣子的政策是不是延續那如果說數據是往好的方向走我們當然合理的預算能支持我們一定大力支持好不好那主委在另外一個部分所以等一下你看"},{"start":282.144,"end":301.055,"text":"三天內給本席相關資料好不好好 主委兩分鐘時間我也再另外為我們北海岸的鄉親請命因為我知道說這個我們台北榮總我們榮總體系其實這個醫院辦理得非常好那也確實也讓很多的這個北部地區其實不只北部地區因為我們現在台北榮總的分院"},{"start":301.755,"end":318.328,"text":"很多我剛算了一下應該有七八個分院對不對那也遍佈到這個花東地區宜蘭花蓮等部分那現在我們也提到就是說我們的北海岸淡海新市鎮這個我也跟衛福部有提過因為現在北海岸淡海新市鎮有這個新"},{"start":319.818,"end":343.946,"text":"市政的開發很多的這個退役官兵也選擇在我們淡水落腳居住那還有就是那邊的醫療需求也有需要那很多人就在講啊因為其實住在淡水地區的人他也都會到石牌來去做籠總的一個就醫那有沒有機會因為我們現在要爭取在那邊有醫療專區那有沒有機會我們這邊也能夠來評估看看是不是有分院的可能性"},{"start":344.69,"end":369.117,"text":"非常謝謝黃委員現在北海岸一帶就是台大靜山醫院跟淡水馬捷在主要支撐但是很多人信任北龍都到北龍來就醫因為有捷運就直接到石牌站那如果是有量能那長官希望我們做那我們會評估我們自己有沒有這個能力因為現在醫療的人的能力非常的缺乏"},{"start":369.918,"end":393.24,"text":"醫療其實我們自己民意代表非常清楚所以說我們站在這邊第一線的醫護人員等等的我們能夠給予支持我們大力支持所以現在有很多其實是開了有病房但沒人力沒有辦法開接收這個急診轉這個病房等等我們也都理解但本席現在講的是說如果說沒有是一個醫院譬如說24小時急診的需求"},{"start":393.82,"end":421.656,"text":"但是能夠有朋友分院 門診中心等等對於一般來講的這個醫療其實它也是分流的一個狀況就如同您剛剛有提到淡海新市鎮其實它不只是淡水包括三之十門 北海岸因為台大的金山分院它其實是比較服務的是右半邊那邊包括貢寮 瑞屏 雙溪 屏溪等等但這邊包括說淡水 包括巴黎那尤其淡江大橋 吉昌通則所以本期今天才會拋出來這個議題"},{"start":423.397,"end":444.18,"text":"過去丹江大橋還沒有要通車前本行沒有冒然拋出是因為我也認為是說交通的一個部分要考量但現在既然已經有但海新市政這邊也會預留醫療專區那剛剛院長也講了一個白話就說只要主管支持 主委支持 長官支持他們可不可以來做評估主委 能不能"},{"start":444.921,"end":457.92,"text":"也針對這個部分我會請衛福部請地方政府提出需求但是如果說有希望能夠退府會籠總體系一起來討論的時候能不能也一起以一個開放的心胸共同來討論"},{"start":464.447,"end":477.415,"text":"有足夠的人力,我們都願意幫助我們新北市的民眾,都非常的樂意我們還是往一個開放的方向,用做可行性評估的方向我們來做推動,這樣可以嗎?"},{"start":478.436,"end":507.098,"text":"好 我會請新北市政府因為這還是地方政府這邊也要開出他們的一個需求那未來也會找不管是我們退府會 不管是衛福部我們共同來討論但是希望是我們是一個比較open的方式來去做討論那如果可以真的落腳在淡海新市政這真的也是造福不管是一般的民眾或造福我們的退役官兵等等這樣可以嗎謝謝主委 謝謝委員好 感謝 謝謝委員"},{"start":509.718,"end":510.469,"text":"謝謝訪問"}]}},{"id":"168758","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168758","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5880b40c5769f1ad13412d07114a2b10d96ca025fdcb7c5c95c54bff74e41601cee844413abcda5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"12:35:23 - 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麻煩請NCC代理主委好 我們請陳代理主委葉委員好代理主委我是想要來瞭解一下NCC沒委員會怎樣剛剛你有提到沒有委員所以導致於很多家電視台或媒體沒辦法換照對不對是還有一些董事沒有辦法換人嗎對不對對還有一些相關那個立法執法也好 法律也好都沒辦法推出NCC的版本"},{"start":35.305,"end":55.27,"text":"沒辦法推出NC版本因為你剛剛提到的像換照換照我是覺得還好啦沒換照也不會怎麼樣反正這些媒體假設他有違法的話比如說播出一些法律不允許的那你就罰他嘛對不對本席其實主張根本不用換照啦裁罰部分如果動不動就要換照的話"},{"start":56.03,"end":72.299,"text":"那就會出現你們之前隨便把一些批評政府的電台關掉的狀況沒換照還好啦反正他有違法你就罰他透過法律來約束然後董建市是屬於比較屬於公司治理有沒有一些是跟民生比較有關的"},{"start":73.399,"end":98.497,"text":"有關就比方說有線電視的頻道頻道的上下架變更因為車子要營運計畫營運計畫也是委員會保留事項也需要由委員會組成才能處理那代理主我跟您請教一下因為我記得那個時候有在前一兩年前面一位主委被問到說如果NCC委員沒過班會怎樣他是講說iPhone 15沒辦法上市"},{"start":99.358,"end":127.69,"text":"但現在iPhone15不但上市了iPhone17都上市了各位報告那是七個委員時代最後要他們四個委員要畢業前就是要結束任期前把訂定一個授權的執法讓這個比較省酌空間比較小的部分不是組織法九條二項六款裡頭的這個經營權的登上邊跟處分的部分給他授權來處理所以換句話說就是有一些是技術性的問題"},{"start":128.67,"end":154.619,"text":"他不是說非怎麼樣啦就是可以解決的嘛但是那時候他為了恐嚇大家就說十五沒辦法上市可是後來還是上市啦所以其實是有辦法解決啦可是他不去講那個辦法但他就跟你講說沒辦法上市所以國人會覺得NCC為什麼都在亂講話他明明就上市啦他講話的當下納稅執法授權辦法所以他有一些作為是可以讓他上市他不去講那個作為他就直接說無法上市結果後來上市就打臉NCC嘛"},{"start":155.419,"end":181.178,"text":"所以我覺得這也就是NCC為什麼你去看很多民調大家對NCC的滿意度都很低嘛就是很多類似的原因累積起來的所以身為代理主委我覺得你們也有責任要捍衛你們自己機關的榮譽感就是不要讓一般民眾覺得說NCC好像有跟沒有好像沒什麼差別那我現在想要跟你請教現在委員的狀況有三種第一種是全部都有 滿了"},{"start":182.279,"end":196.497,"text":"然後有過半的這個當然就是什麼都可以運作嘛第二種情況是大概就像你們現在這樣只有三個沒過半所以有些事情你剛剛有提到是沒辦法做第三種最慘的情況很可能會發生因為包括您在內"},{"start":197.918,"end":212.37,"text":"好像任期也到七月就到期了嘛對 我們目前剩下的三位任期全部到今年七月全部到期然後行政院長卓榮泰院長到現在還是吊兒噹噹的我看有其他委員問他說NC委員要不要提他說我努力"},{"start":213.231,"end":233.114,"text":"他說我努力他不是說我確定可以他說我努力所以到時候提不出來他就說我努力不夠或是我努力也辦不到就是他連一個決心都沒有所以很有可能出現一個狀況是七月以後NC沒委員那請教一下七月以後NC沒委員和現在有三位委員差別在哪裡"},{"start":233.735,"end":262.316,"text":"差別在剛剛委員所提到的這個當初有授權的部分那些很多很多比較相對於省酌空間比較小的一些裁判案都不能處理像是進口器材、設明器材、終端設備那些進口包括iPhone等等之類的就是完全沒有委員的情況連剛剛講的那些比較吐息吐民眾的部分大概都都沒辦法處理就會痛了所以你看你看我們這個你有跟卓榮泰院長講這件事嗎"},{"start":263.757,"end":292.159,"text":"你有跟他講嗎他有沒有像我剛剛問你一樣問過你說有三位委員跟沒有委員的差別他有問過你這件事嗎任何本人是沒有沒有你看他不在乎啊如果他在乎就會問了啊無論怎麼樣起碼提三個過來嘛對不對 你提了三個起碼可以維持現在的運作啊然後連三個都沒有你如果過三個或過一個是不是就跟都沒有不一樣"},{"start":293.968,"end":304.387,"text":"0跟0.1還是有差別有差別嘛對不對所以他連1個都不提提1個還是有差也都不提我覺得等一下回去之後你是不是跟行政院講一下"},{"start":305.441,"end":323.751,"text":"就是說現在院長感覺你吊啷噹的但是七個有七個的運作方式三個有三個運作方式但都沒有的話連你剛剛講什麼無線攝頻這些都沒有辦法處理了嘛沒錯嘛是這影響很大是不是請他最起碼提個提一部分出來好不好你跟他講你這個是嚴重性"},{"start":324.631,"end":347.177,"text":"你跟他講一下這個嚴重性啊 戴主委好不好 等一下結束之後就跟他講一下好 我盡可能好 然後再來問一下因為在去年NCC那時候有引發一個750之亂嘛那針對一些就是二類的射頻器材都說要繳750塊的規費那四月份發生的事然後後來因為那個規定"},{"start":350.16,"end":366.349,"text":"那個委員會說要求改成核備改成審查所以就給他推翻了可是按照NCC的規法規劃其實你們去年四月的時候你們是想要停政一年而已啦換句話說停政一年到現在一年已經過了你們還有可能會做出這樣的事嗎"},{"start":367.049,"end":390.956,"text":"絕對不會跟委員報告其實那個執法修因為大院這邊有做一些處理所以原來我們修的那個已經失效了就等於說回到前一版就是沒有修的情況所以也不會再提了因為我看你們去年是說停政一年感覺上好像一年後你們還想要再越越遇事所以現在就是完全都不會做這個事回到前一版"},{"start":391.876,"end":403.524,"text":"OK 那剛剛我跟你講那個記者要跟院長講就是說起碼要三個嘛或兩個 一個也好 你不能一個都沒有你要跟他講 這個很重要有機會的話我會跟您會有機會 你是歌員耶謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168756","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168756","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5880b40c5769f15293ad161169ffac10d96ca025fdcb7c5c95c54bff74e416eb30719eee88c9bd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","委員發言時間":"12:29:19 - 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我們請陳主委你好"},{"start":18.722,"end":43.482,"text":"是陳代理主委你好NCC委員會議其實從113年12月1號因為人數不足停擺到現在那麼根據你們去年年底所發布的資料到目前那個時候已經積壓了489件是需要委員會審議的案件我想請教到目前為止又增加了多少"},{"start":45.066,"end":60.441,"text":"這個被羈押的案件就是沒有辦法繼續審理的案件到目前為止已經累計了有多少件是跟我們報告614件喔就有614件了那大致上是什麼樣類型的案件呢最大宗是董經事經理人變更223件然後換照案有154件"},{"start":64.525,"end":92.068,"text":"好 那麼其實這些蠻重要的董監事的變更還有換照案如果說董監事媒體業者的董監事無法變更的話那變成這個也會影響到整個業者的運作對 他的經營運作那針對這個問題的話就是還有換照案也是那麼目前AC的做法基本上都是發函叫業者如果涉及到換照的話就是給予公共利益繼續撥出這是特殊時期的變通做法那針對董監事的變更案呢"},{"start":93.849,"end":117.047,"text":"你們也是一樣嗎?還是說就是准許他們自己先變更了?沒有,因為很多公司法當即需要主管機關同意他們才能變更好,那所以變得像這樣一個情況之下的話其實NCC委員禁訴補期是非常重要的一件事吧?是,沒錯那針對NCC的這個委員的補期這件事情,我不知道現在NCC"},{"start":118.248,"end":126.706,"text":"包含您在內有沒有就是去函給行政院長或是不斷的提醒行政院長要趕快補提名因為"},{"start":128.723,"end":149.657,"text":"就是你們現在三位委員到7月31號就要任期屆滿那之後可能NCC就會出現完全沒有委員的狀況是變成一個空殼子啊跟我們報告其實我們都有透過相關管道比方說跟NCC的政委啊或者相關院長辦公室的一些重要幹部幕僚都有反映過依照NCC組織法第四條的規定其實只要是"},{"start":157.574,"end":184.073,"text":"NCC委員的出缺沒有達足的時候行政院長就應該在三個月內補足提名的這個是依法行政院長就應該要做的事情可是我們看到現在卓榮泰他就完全藐視法律然後該提名也不提名而且呢這個問題很嚴重就像剛剛講他涉及到媒體業者他的經營運作他董建是無法變更還有涉及到換照的問題所以目前的情況之下就是你們容許這些業者在"},{"start":184.833,"end":211.385,"text":"沒有得到正式合法執照那繼續營運嗎這是不得已的法律未定狀態下的大家要求取最大公義的一些方式所以你們現在還有進行相關處罰案件嗎有明確違法比方說酒類廣告不應該在不應該在開拍之前播出的話我們都照法覆您剛剛有講到這個之前曾經針對華視他的AI的影片因為可能沒有揭露訊息說你們處罰他50萬"},{"start":213.328,"end":239.717,"text":"有做成這個處分嗎那個是七個委員時代做的是七個委員時代所以是更早的時候做的不是現在這三個委員時代做的那麼本席是認為說這個希望NCC還是要趕快去催催卓榮泰他既然當行政院長他就必須有這個義務責任要去補足提名那麼這個前一段時間NCC才剛慶祝20週年的週年慶"},{"start":243.098,"end":248.743,"text":"我現在真的很擔心這NCC會不會就此消滅在卓榮泰的手上如果說沒有委員在即時補足的話那接下來我們的預算法案是要由誰來出面呢"},{"start":261.546,"end":289.177,"text":"這問題很嚴重的對不對在第一波的提名然後第二波的提名就算第一波提名是因為他們後來中間又撤回了嘛也錯了也很久第二波提名就算是不通過要趕快再提出第三波的這個名單我不知道現在行政院是都找不到適合的人嗎台灣的這個通訊傳播法律經濟人才記記這總統他是都找不到適合的人來擔任NCC委員嗎"},{"start":290.694,"end":318.141,"text":"我真的很擔心因為畢竟本席陳晶也是NCC委員我不希望看到NCC就此消滅或是說以後乾脆就把NCC又拆回到又走回20年前的回頭路以後部分的處事就移到速發部或是部分的處事就移到交通部是不是要回到過去的時代呢獨立機關它有它的存在價值當然人很重要你沒有人這個機關就無法運作"},{"start":320.506,"end":346.36,"text":"更何況我們剛剛講的他衍生很多的相關的這個ACC的發照處分等這些問題這也非常就是影響整個廣電媒體業者的權利勝據所以本席今天希望就是陳主委您回去之後還是盡速的趕快的最好是能夠面見卓榮泰告訴他這個問題的嚴重好我盡可能努力好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"17370","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17370","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/16eb79f0bb3b77db7a173d75aaeaa1333f25c319ea2bba07b1d480c4e0b4ea527c1ad5ce596b3b545ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2026-04-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查115年度中央政府總預算案關於經濟部及所屬單位預算部分。\n二、審查115年度中央政府總預算案直轄市及縣市政府一般性補助款經濟部主管部分預算。\n(以上二案僅詢答)\n【4月22日及23日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2026-04-22","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2026-04-22T08:35:37+08:00","end_time":"2026-04-22T13:02:00+08:00","duration":15983,"影片長度":"04:26:23","委員發言時間":"08:35:37 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請組密報告出席人數報告委員會出席委員是二人 已組法定人數好 那我們現在開會 進行這個報告事項請宣讀上次會議議事錄"},{"start":1490.868,"end":1513.372,"text":"立法院第十一屆第五会期经济委员会第九次圈体委员会议议事录时间115年4月15日星期三9时至11时45分115年4月16日星期四9时至11时15分地点红楼101会议室出席委员邱颖等14人列席委员洪孟凯等18人列席人员115年4月15日星期三经济部中务次长何敬昌"},{"start":1513.992,"end":1528.407,"text":"國家發展委員會主任委員葉俊賢運動部政務次長黃啟黃等115年4月16日星期四經濟部部長龔明欣國家發展委員會副主任委員張芳冠農業部部長陳俊濟等主席邱昭祺委員志偉"},{"start":1530.889,"end":1557.016,"text":"115年4月15日星期三 八事項一 宣讀上次會議思路 決定 確定二 邀請經濟部部長 國家發展委員會主任委員運動部首長 教育部首長及財運部首長就我國運動產業發展制政策規劃人才培育 跨部會資源整合相關助稅優惠執行成效未來產值提升目標及先進國家運動產業政策之分析比較進行報告並被質詢經濟部政務司長何敬昌國家發展委員會主任委員葉敬賢運動部政務司長黃啟黃"},{"start":1559.477,"end":1588.006,"text":"教育部國民及學權教育署副署長戴淑芬及財政部負稅署副署長倪麗欣報告後委員邱毅英等18人提出質詢均由經濟部政務司長何進昌等及其答覆決定一 登記發言委員除不在場者外區域經營發言完畢訊達結束二 委員莊瑞雄及張家俊所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報想書面質詢和未及答覆部分請相關單位於一週內以書面答覆並複製本會委員另有要求期限者通緝所定"},{"start":1589.187,"end":1604.964,"text":"115年4月16日星期四報告事項邀請經濟部部長率台灣電力股份衛生公司董事長國家發展委員會主任委員及農業部部長就我國再生能源及電網韌性之發展現況建置進度容量目標推動困境法規障礙及相關改善"},{"start":1605.965,"end":1631.959,"text":"對策進行報告並備諮詢經濟部部長龔明新、國際發展委員會副主任委員張芳冠及農業部部長陳俊濟報告後委員陳定輝等13人提出諮詢經由經濟部部長龔明新等即席答覆決定1登記發言委員主部在場者外區域經與發言完畢訊達結束2委員徐新穎、陳超明及邱映穎所提書面諮詢列入紀錄刊登公報3書面諮詢和未及答覆部分請相關單位於一週內以書面答覆並複製本會"},{"start":1633.3,"end":1658.595,"text":"委員另有要求期限者從其鎖定 散會 宣讀完畢好繼續進行討論事項請宣讀討論事項1審查115年度中央政府總預算案關於經濟部及所屬單位預算部分2審查115年度中央政府總預算案直轄市及縣市政府一般性補助款經濟部主管部分預算宣讀完畢好"},{"start":1659.793,"end":1683.286,"text":"那接下來我們介紹一下今天列席的這個單位代表首先經濟部部長 公民信部長商業發展署署長 蘇文玲產業發展署署長 邱求慧國貿署署長 劉威廉能源署代理署長 吳志偉"},{"start":1687.659,"end":1714.634,"text":"中小及新創企業署署長李冠志水利署署長林元鵬制裁局局長廖承威產業園區管理局長楊志清標準檢驗局局長陳怡林地質調查及礦業管理中心主任徐明宏"},{"start":1716.612,"end":1741.935,"text":"經貿人員培訓所所長陳秀全台廊公司董事長吳明昌中油公司董事長方振仁台電公司董事長曾文森台水公司董事長李嘉榮行政院經貿談判辦公室資深代表兼執密徐從欽"},{"start":1744.025,"end":1763.336,"text":"行政院主計總署公務預算處專委曾益聖本日議程為巡達115年度中央政府總預算案關於經濟部及所屬單位預算的部分"},{"start":1764.042,"end":1792.865,"text":"第二關於直轄市及縣市政府一般性補助款經濟部主管部分的預算那麼請經濟部部長龔明鑫報告報告10分鐘為先謝謝謝謝主席那我就用簡報的形式跟各位委員來做說明那首先這邊是看到下一頁"},{"start":1793.939,"end":1817.521,"text":"那我想先跟各位委員報告的就是說我們的這個施政重點還有我們的主管預算案的部分它配合編列的情況那第二個大概整體預算的編列狀況第三個是個系化預算編列那第四項就是一般性補助的編列狀況請看到下一頁再下一頁基本上"},{"start":1819.383,"end":1833.058,"text":"經濟部在這一年主要的施政重點大概有幾個項目第一個大概還是因應國際情勢還有我國出口供應鏈上的支持包括了這個增強產業的韌性或者是加強中小微"},{"start":1834.72,"end":1852.682,"text":"產業的一些多元發展還有開拓海外市場第二個就是落實五大信賴產業包括推動半導體的供應鏈無人機的推動還有數位產業的轉型第三個主要是穩定供電的部分能源再發展再看下一頁"},{"start":1854.183,"end":1877.297,"text":"第三個就是立足台灣佈局全球行銷全世界的推動再來就是中小微企業振興發展建立單一窗口然後再來是供水環境的強化還有治水的強化那主要編列這幾個項目來講的話經濟部所主管的大概是總共今年編列了大概1480億左右"},{"start":1879.378,"end":1906.096,"text":"那分列在剛剛那幾個施政重點那最大的部分還是在右下角這邊的赤嘴黃紅的部分大概454億總共佔了30%那第二大項就是五大信貸產業的推動那總共大概414億佔了大概28%然後再來就是說這個穩定供電的推動還有一般政務那請看到下一頁"},{"start":1907.315,"end":1926.599,"text":"那整體預算編列的狀況在下一頁那整個我們稅務的部分大概編了158億那這個158億裡面最主要的項目大概就是由規費的收入大概65億然後另外就是營業營業還有事業收入63億這兩項是最大的"},{"start":1928.94,"end":1957.568,"text":"那盈利的部分主要是來自於台糖、中鋼、台鹽、漢翔等等的這個它的這個股息紅利的腳庫那規費的部分主要是智慧局跟標準局的規費收入那跟上一年比較來講大概是158億大概減列了大概9億左右那主要的原因大概是減列了中鋼、台鹽跟漢翔它的腳息但是也有增加的規費的收入是增加了3億"},{"start":1961.963,"end":1985.476,"text":"稅數的狀況來講的話總共編列了大概1480億那跟上年度比較起來大概增列了354億那主要的項目那右邊這邊有增列主要的部分就是說離島地區的這個水跟供電的補貼大概61億然後增列了新的國家藥物的"},{"start":1986.156,"end":2009.779,"text":"任性的整備計畫大概34億還有對於中小基金的撥補43億然後再來就是公共建設的部分主要是大林埔千尊的部分是60億然後還有一些新增的這個縣市管核酸的改善計畫大概35億還有海淡廠49億那這個都是增列那科技預算也有一些增列包括科技還有工業的發展還有能源的發展"},{"start":2010.82,"end":2034.908,"text":"我們看到下一頁那這個下一頁再下一頁這個是比較細的一般性編列的部分大概454億剛剛提到的主要是能源上的一些推動總共106億那比去年增加了17億中老企業基金的這個撥補大概91億那第三項就是說離島的部分的水跟電的"},{"start":2035.928,"end":2041.394,"text":"還有國家藥物的整備計畫這是全新的大概32億然後看下一頁然後另外還有一些撥補水作業基金還有擴大內需然後還有經濟部的辦公新社"},{"start":2058.11,"end":2084.621,"text":"聽社的一些興建計畫還有人事費等等這個是一般性支出那我們看到下一頁另外就是公共建設的部分那公共建設的部分總共編列了大概508億那這508億大概分成幾個項目一個是環境資源那環境資源主要都是治水的部分包括中央館還有海水淡化還有地方縣市的就是縣市館的這個改善計畫"},{"start":2085.962,"end":2103.777,"text":"然後還有一些聯通管的調度大概總共編列了426億那請看下一頁那另外一個就是經濟類別的部分主要是大陵埔的千春還有第六的發展無人機統籌總共大概是80億另外還有一個城鄉的相關的計畫數位發展計畫大概是1.8億那請看到下一頁"},{"start":2108.461,"end":2135.82,"text":"科技預算的部分科技的部分我們如果從單位來看的話一個是科技專案部分308億另外是工業的一些發展144億中小微企業一些發展18億再請看到下一頁商業的部分是15億能源科技10億還有度量衡的部分是9億還有其他地礦還有智慧財產等等一些情況再看下一頁"},{"start":2136.704,"end":2150.855,"text":"那在一般性補助的預算的編列情況 請看下一頁那主要是都是要補助給地方政府的那總共大概編列了80億左右 全部都是公共建設的預算"},{"start":2152.176,"end":2173.692,"text":"那分成這個一樣是環境資源類別的就是治水的部分絕大部分都是治水是80億包括縣市管河川的改制大概64億中央管的部分8億還有無自來水的時候大概是4億等等那經濟類別的部分就是無人機的一個統籌型那也有編列一些補助地方政府大概是0.12億"},{"start":2176.96,"end":2203.183,"text":"那總共來講的話所以115年事實上本部的這個主管的稅數預算還有一般性補助的編列那都符合行政院整體的施政那我們都希望用有限的資源來做最有效的配置跟運用那上一個年度就是114年事實上經濟部整個預算的達成率是達到了98.57%所以也算是有達到很好的很好的成效那懇請"},{"start":2205.084,"end":2220.593,"text":"各位委員支持本部的相關預算以上報告好謝謝部長好那因為在場為人數已達三人那請問各位同仁上次會議議事錄有無錯誤無錯誤議事錄確定"},{"start":2227.699,"end":2256.261,"text":"現在進行詢答委員質詢權原例做以下宣告第一 每位委員發言時間本會員6分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘非本會委員4分鐘上午10點截止發言登記首先請登記第一位的賴瑞龍委員發言好 謝謝召委 請工部長"},{"start":2264.419,"end":2277.634,"text":"國務長我先請教一下這個政協會後然後中共宣布了十大的措施那這十大措施其實對台灣有什麼樣的影響我可不可以先請教一下部長怎麼來整體判斷"},{"start":2279.865,"end":2303.428,"text":"因為這十大措施其中只有大概只有一項跟經濟部比較有關就是什麼對於中小企業有一個什麼交易的事實上他寫得很模糊也不是很清楚他到底那我問一下部長主管經濟部的部長你也擔任國發會主委你怎麼來看待這十大的措施對台灣會不會有什麼樣整體性的影響因為事實上台灣現在來講"},{"start":2304.989,"end":2318.562,"text":"以去年經濟成長率是達到8.68%今年可能超過7%ATB最新的估計所以這幾年來甚至於是這5、6年來台灣的經濟都非常非常好那"},{"start":2319.846,"end":2343.409,"text":"也沒有受到什麼中國的會台的什麼什麼措施的影響台灣本身已經走出自己很好的路而且從之前的很依賴中國到現在其實我們也因為中國很多的時候它的開放跟禁止開放禁止間其實是沒有太多的這個可遵循的一些依據的啦那往可能政黨之間有一些談判或什麼的就四方"},{"start":2343.849,"end":2361.785,"text":"他認為的利益多就丟出來所以其實對我們的很多的不管是產業或農業產品其實很多不確定性所以我們現在走向了國際的這個路線那依賴度也大量的降低跟中國之間的這個所以這個反倒是讓我們的經濟其實我們的股市也都上到了非常好的一個數字"},{"start":2362.486,"end":2377.169,"text":"所以我們認為這是一個有正確的道路啦那但是我還是要問一下裡面我看到很多包括他設立很多的條件喔這個一二點是呃國共兩黨的什麼常態化溝通或青年的溝通那甚至於很多的都還要"},{"start":2378.11,"end":2406.566,"text":"設定比如第五個所謂的這些農業產品還要建立在堅持在九二共識包括很多漁業的還要符合條件甚至於食品的註冊等等也要符合條件或者是符合什麼需求或者是連電視劇啊紀錄片動畫還要導向正確這些東西當設定這麼多條件的時候部長你怎麼看第一個它有真正的效果第二個是這樣的條件適合嗎"},{"start":2407.825,"end":2427.425,"text":"事實上之前有些措施是它在2016年陸續本來都有已經開放的項目它都把它取消掉那當然是政治上的考量我剛才提到了從2016年我們也從替代市場或分散市場也獲得了很好的成果所以它現在再次的開放的話"},{"start":2428.266,"end":2448.545,"text":"那我們當然也不要設有條件是最好的因為原來就沒有那些條件他要給你停也不一定要什麼樣的具體的理由啦那他要開放的時候又設了一些條件那他要條件你無法達成無法那也是也是他說了算嘛所以就是說兩岸之間如果說可以有比較穩定的"},{"start":2450.106,"end":2468.391,"text":"簽訂什麼樣的確定的合約就是政府對政府如果可以簽訂比較具體的合約而不是說單方面的就是說我今天說怎樣明天說怎樣那對於企業界來講是非常困擾的一件事那問一下部長跟特定政黨接觸過後直接就放出這些東西出來你認為這樣它有沒有具有背後的一些政治目的"},{"start":2469.291,"end":2497.577,"text":"我認為還是如果說政府對政府還是最好的方式一定要政府對政府嘛你再跟政黨談過任何東西你跳過政府跳過中華民國政府想要來跟談的話事實上這並不會達到實際上的效果所以還是必須政府政府那我再問那這背後有沒有特定今年年底要選舉有沒有選舉的目的介入選舉的目的這個我就沒有辦法去預測但是我還是覺得就是說部長應該不是沒辦法預測是不方便回答啦"},{"start":2499.048,"end":2518.548,"text":"我認為這個部分大家都看得很清楚他一定有背後的目的他想要去影響想要去試圖去干擾所以我希望這一塊政府還是要更以審慎妥善處理一些作為不要讓這樣的產生對於整個不管是所有在政策上面或所有上面的負面上的一些效果"},{"start":2519.088,"end":2543.206,"text":"我再來看一下其實我們這幾年經濟狀況其實相當好從去年剛剛提到了8.68到今年7甚至有機會有更好這在台灣以這樣的狀況來說是非常不容易的包括我們的股市狀況所以我們現在走在一個正確的道路上那我們認為剛剛部長也提到我們的交流貿易不應該設有任何政治前提當你有設有政治前提當你跳過了政府跟政府間的談判"},{"start":2543.926,"end":2567.953,"text":"跟溝通跟交流的時候其實就會出很多問題而且它有可能形成是單一片面式的決定我是要給就給我是要停就停這對於我們來說是一個非常大的風險所以才會有所謂的養套殺這樣的狀況的出現部長應該同意這樣的看法吧是是是那我再問一下陸委會說他們掌握了情勢中共動員以上逼政部長有這樣的狀況嗎"},{"start":2570.802,"end":2594.14,"text":"這個我就不知道 略微才知道部長應該也有說 那我們希望這些都是要審慎妥善去做注意的就是說我們還是必須要穩建住 台灣是走在一條正確的道路上面那應該要想辦法讓國人更加的清楚 堅定我們這樣的一條道路這才是一個比較穩卻的道路 那如果是透過政治的手段"},{"start":2594.6,"end":2611.906,"text":"或者是透過有一些政治的目的的話應該讓國人更加的清楚對我們政府目前的方向正確的方向更加的有信心這才是台灣應該要走向全世界一條道路那不要受到特意的政黨或特意的政治的目的去干擾這反倒會影響到台灣未來長遠的經濟發展"},{"start":2614.167,"end":2636.093,"text":"最後時間有限,台北在抱怨說耗水費的問題,然後應該要認為耗水費那我先問一下,全國的電網是不是很多台北的供應,那是不是應該要負擔所有的一些輸電的成本?"},{"start":2637.554,"end":2655.703,"text":"我們來看一下這個表啦齁台北市的發電量到了2025年2.9億度它的用電量164.1億度將近161度超支了這麼多而這些電都其他從外線送來的可能中部從南部送上來的這些所有的過程中都有輸電成本這個要不要計算進來"},{"start":2657.549,"end":2672.897,"text":"我們當然是希望說所有的國人受到的待遇都一樣盡量不要用區域性來看這個但是這個也是希望那我問你部長耗水費其實是大戶用的名詞並不是給他這樣用的全台灣也沒有一個水庫要收"},{"start":2674.358,"end":2694.935,"text":"因為大用戶就是用水用比較多的這個大戶我們當然希望他可以就是這是耗水費的目的嘛不是給你地方政府找個名目來收這個錢的嘛那更何況是台北市的發電量遠少於他的用電量那你發電這麼少的狀況下你還要想要收這個耗水費這真的是"},{"start":2695.896,"end":2699.098,"text":"所以部長覺得這個不合理吧那我另外要問的是那輸電成本的部分要不要計算一下"},{"start":2715.534,"end":2744.51,"text":"輸電成本這也是台電重大的成本啊你為了光為了要把電送進去台北市花了這麼多錢這個要不要算一下是是是部長這要計算一下好不好你不計算人家就幫你幫你算了很多你他算他有利他沒有算到他讓國家為他付出多少成本他沒有算到台電沒有算到經濟部為台北市付出多少成本整天在算著這些我認為這已經佔了全台灣的便宜這麼多的人還用這樣的角度在思考我認為是非常缺缺乏格局也非常缺乏氣度的"},{"start":2746.099,"end":2754.788,"text":"這個我請那個台電能不能計算給我輸電的成本從中南部或其他縣市送進去台電要的成本可不可以給我一個禮拜你可不可以把這個資料給我"},{"start":2756.38,"end":2785.231,"text":"我們會估計一個數字但是也跟委員報告就是我們輸電成本依照現在的電價公式是平均全國平均啊 對啦但是你如果是在地你有你的電廠的話你當然可以降低成本嘛你電力要從南部送上來 中部送上來那成本絕對是高很多嘛這些成本算給我們至少當台北市的市長 首都市長缺乏格局講出這種話的時候至少我們要告訴他我們都還沒跟你算你的輸電成本花了這麼多錢台電為了這些花了多少錢"},{"start":2786.051,"end":2811.222,"text":"所以我認為要講之所謂的耗水費的時候先來談談這件事情再來區別電價的部分我之前提過很多次了去年提過不應該南部發電然後其他不發電部分還有不同的電價至少對於發電的城市給予公平合理的對待就算少一點點也是一種對發電城市的一個尊重我提了很久了部長好像還沒有提出任何的評估報告給我什麼時候給我"},{"start":2812.934,"end":2831.648,"text":"是 事實上我們有在算了然後他們也跟我報告了一下但是中間還在持續的這個我們看一下啦 區別電價的部分包括韓國 包括英國 德國都已經有評估報告出來韓國是暫緩實施 英國是沒有實施 德國沒有實施至少人家有個評估報告出來 部長"},{"start":2832.691,"end":2858.297,"text":"多久可以給我評估報告至少給評估報告我沒有要求你馬上實施但是至少給我一個評估報告從去年講到現在總諮詢講到部門諮詢都沒有什麼時候給我多久今年做完啦不能今年我沒辦法接受這麼久因為他有台電公司有一個委託報告我不認為這個這麼困難我不認為這麼困難一個月內可以完成嗎給我一個月內給我可以嗎你們要不要給而已我不認為你們手上沒有一個月給我好嗎"},{"start":2859.889,"end":2873.678,"text":"好 兩個月給我 好不好 我要看到一個評估做不做是另外一回事 但是區別店家的評估報告要出來因為其他國家都已經有出來了好 謝謝好 謝謝阿仁委員的質詢接下來有請邱義營委員質詢謝謝主席 我請一下部長有請龔部長"},{"start":2890.337,"end":2893.202,"text":"呃 是不是水利署署長也一定上水利署署長"},{"start":2896.483,"end":2914.548,"text":"部長早部長我們等了這個總諮詢的報告跟審查也等了半年了這個部長您剛剛的報告裡頭其實我看經濟部主管大概總預算編列了大概需要有1480億1480.28億那除了一般行政大概現在是持續穩定的"},{"start":2922.91,"end":2931.739,"text":"可以致用以外你的許多的重大建設我想直接請教你到目前為止你們的執行率是多少"},{"start":2933.687,"end":2950.873,"text":"你這些重大的建設我剛剛請水利署上來我看一下你的預算裡頭單單防水供水防洪任性的計劃的預算總額大概就達到了454.37億佔整個經濟部的總預算的30%你們現在的預算執行成果是什麼署長你可以說明嗎還是"},{"start":2962.37,"end":2985.482,"text":"報告委員 我想問關切是一類錢這麼多那擔心現在如果以這個時間點擔心到年底這邊可能執行的問題那事實上跟委員報告我們為了要因應這個狀況其實從去年底年初就開始滾動檢討跟相關的部門尤其縣市政府共同努力很多工作都前置作業都做完"},{"start":2985.802,"end":3003.993,"text":"你們前置作業開始做啦但是有開始發包了嗎還沒發包但是都是做好那你做好了前置作業現在已經四月底將近五月了你如果現在要開始準備發因為我不知道總預算什麼時候過我們有信心可以來現在開始審查而已喔"},{"start":3004.873,"end":3033.879,"text":"不知道什麼時候過喔那你接下來你的發包施工很顯然在今年的汛期之前你沒有辦法完成任何一項重大的防洪建設對不對你沒有辦法拿到任何一個錢那我比較擔心的是你現在編列了454.37億立法院的審查應該不會讓你454.37億全數給你如果被刪掉如果被大刀一砍請問你的防洪建設怎麼做"},{"start":3034.859,"end":3048.908,"text":"還不只你這樣喔 我現在只講到是你水利署的部分你經濟部所有的這些重大的工程包括你要補助中小微企業的振興包括這個支持我們的供應鏈甚至包括了幾大產業如果總預算的審查到時候在協商的時候大刀一砍"},{"start":3059.607,"end":3075.398,"text":"請問你經濟部要怎麼做你到現在五月了你的執行率都講不出來過去你們到了期中應該大概執行率都會執行率大概都會到50%左右了嘛很多的重大建設可能是在往前走那你現在的執行率是多少"},{"start":3076.098,"end":3089.398,"text":"不跟我說 也不能說也不知道要怎麼做你的所有的東西水利工作都只有做前置作業啊那接下來怎麼辦那你馬上要編明年的預算了耶那明年預算要怎麼編 要怎麼執行"},{"start":3092.31,"end":3111.942,"text":"我補充一下因為在今年執行的時候因為新興計畫還沒有辦法執行所以我們目前只能執行延續性計畫但是因為延續性計畫我們在執行的時候也會比較保守是因為怕到時候立法院有一些決議所以我們目前整體的公務預算到3月底截止大概是67%左右"},{"start":3114.417,"end":3136.322,"text":"公務預算到3月底以前已經完成67對不含新興我們沒有把新興放到分配的基準裡面所以光延續性計劃所以你的自災防洪的計劃這位任性計劃全部都算是新興計劃嗎很多都是算新興計劃嗎這些都完全還沒做嗎是不是這樣好那部長我要請教那你們在進度上能不能追得上"},{"start":3137.322,"end":3159.18,"text":"就是到今年年底以前 因為我現在不知道今年的總預算什麼時候會過啦現在開始第一次的報告 對不對接下來我們可能還有預算提案的審查然後還要再進到院長的協商所以我不知道最後拉到最後什麼時候會過因為我看這個台灣民眾黨還提了一個案說今年又要研會到8月31號"},{"start":3161.101,"end":3178.315,"text":"有沒有可能8月31號才通過今年度的總預算然後9月份開始我們應該要開始審明年度的總預算的那你們經濟部怎麼辦你所有的這些治災防洪的工程怎麼做有沒有一個就是你心裡有沒有一個底"},{"start":3179.537,"end":3201.875,"text":"所以剛剛署長特別提到就是說我們前置作業可以做的就盡量趕快先做那這還是在等這個預算所以我們期待說這個預算可以趕快通過是啊 我是這樣想你的那個包括是新興的預算或者是說自災防洪的預算我希望你們給我一個到目前為止的執行率"},{"start":3202.856,"end":3229.195,"text":"好不好 到目前為止你所有的這些治災防洪地方都在等嘛我們很怕接下來颱風期來了要怎麼辦這些治災防洪的工程進度執行到什麼樣的程度這些是不是能夠請經濟部或者是水利署下個禮拜給本席一個報告 好不好那接下來剛剛這個其實我們賴委員也特別請教到"},{"start":3231.257,"end":3259.331,"text":"台北市政府的確是一個非常奇怪的單位非常奇怪的市政府我第一次聽到有水庫用水然後要去跟人家收耗水費的用水利發電然後要來跟人家收耗水費而且還要跟台電收錢水利署過去我們在經濟文匯審查過耗水費的這個法案設計其實就在我當召委的時候通過的什麼叫耗水費"},{"start":3260.626,"end":3273.648,"text":"保證你可以說明一下嗎?泡水費的定義是什麼制度上它應該是用在什麼地方是跟誰徵收你可不可以把這個定義把它說明一下或者是署長來"},{"start":3275.155,"end":3290.113,"text":"報告委員 耗水費的最大的精神是希望能夠節約用水使用者付費的精神那目前耗水費是針對每天用水300噸的一個大戶來進行徵收工業大戶嘛 工廠大戶嘛 對不對"},{"start":3290.914,"end":3316.521,"text":"那我們剛剛特別委員在那水利發電算是耗水嗎不是 水利發電在我們耗水費裡面並沒有這一項而且不會進行徵收其實全台很多水利發電我們都不徵收任何耗水費用因為他們有浪費水源是嗎有原則好 那請教一下就經濟部的立場上面現在台北市政府要來跟你們收耗水費"},{"start":3317.481,"end":3332.643,"text":"第一個這個耗水費的收取也是在中央作業嘛不是在地方政府嘛對不對這個是中央的權責中央的權責那地方可以來收取耗水費嗎那這耗水費要怎麼收第一個他本來就不能收嘛是第二個"},{"start":3333.984,"end":3355.244,"text":"這個水庫的水是屬於天然資源不是屬於台北市政府的水報告委員這水資源是最重要的是最國家的嘛不是像你台北市政府的不是像你蔣萬安的嘛沒有錯水利發電用水來做發電這個發電用的有可能是在台北市使用嘛是不是這樣"},{"start":3360.805,"end":3382.332,"text":"或者是你們的電力是怎麼配置因為他其實我們所有水庫操作都依照他的水位高低去進行調整以目前水庫他的一個水位是90幾%是屬於高水位其實本來就可以進行調控這個水量沒有任何浪費行為因為他有防洪的需求跟調控的行為所以我們進行這個水力發電"},{"start":3383.112,"end":3396.544,"text":"其實兼顧到下游的用水跟整個水庫的高低安全的部分去調控並沒有任何浪費水的狀況水運署不贊成收耗水費來我想請一下台電人家現在要幫你收錢 獅子大開口"},{"start":3398.78,"end":3413.689,"text":"那個跟委員報告幾件事第一件事情是水力發電不是用掉水我們是利用了水的未能這是完全兩個不同的概念這第一點我們以前都學過這個事你學過他不一定有學過啊"},{"start":3414.858,"end":3442.108,"text":"台北市政府不一定有學過啊所以對我們來講這是知識可是對他來講這是很新奇的東西啊這個叫耗水啊這我也覺得匪夷所思第二個你用水利來發電然後要來跟台電收取這些費用那我請教你台電第一就是把大家當傻子那你台電在這個興達電廠的發電我們要不要來跟你收取空污費"},{"start":3443.766,"end":3451.574,"text":"那個跟委員報告就是說一個國家的制度可以這樣亂搞嗎其實台電"},{"start":3452.947,"end":3474.41,"text":"因為本來就是那個水流下來下游的集水站那個取水場他會去用到這些水中間水沒有沒有沒有損耗那如果說有多發電有出來的水其實我們也都是真的水庫的管理局的同意才會發這一些電因為他下游還可以收起來用那因為翡翠的水源非常的大"},{"start":3475.191,"end":3488.043,"text":"那監察院調查的狀況是說他的水源有很多的水量應該有更多的妥善運用但是我發電影響的量非常的少我最近這一段時間他裡面提到自己提到的說我們是115萬噸"},{"start":3491.286,"end":3506.52,"text":"但是被檢討的是五億噸所以那個是完全不同量級的事情我想要說就是說其實就水費來講台電公司付給所有的水庫也都有付費比方說真文我們有付費石門有付費"},{"start":3507.701,"end":3532.256,"text":"翡翠的平均單價其實相對來講是這三個水庫比較高一些我想說我們真的台電公司沒有特別對翡翠水庫不好我想說在這邊跟委員說說明我想這個事情我還是期待包括台電或者是水利署你們都應該要對外說明清楚什麼叫耗水費什麼叫水利發電"},{"start":3533.888,"end":3559.158,"text":"如何水力發電然後這個利用水的位差來做發電之後這個水的流向去哪裡你可能覺得這是常識這是知識但對台北市政府來講他不知道所以我剛剛你們要多花一點時間來教導他們要讓他們有這些正確的知識跟觀念好不好"},{"start":3566.227,"end":3585.034,"text":"接下來我們請洪義強召委好 謝謝主席 有請經濟部工部長部長"},{"start":3593.703,"end":3611.339,"text":"部長早我想在這個地方來講我稍微因為經濟部所屬預算很多我大概先把部的這些的預算稍微仔細去把它整個整本看完那我大概看出來大概就是說我們就部來講的話"},{"start":3613.446,"end":3631.836,"text":"稅出的月薪115年是大概464.85億大概增加了167.53因為你之前是那個部本部有1000億的那個台電的撥補扣掉那個之後那當然這當中可能科技專案的一個增加的一個幅度大概有302.49億"},{"start":3634.52,"end":3644.336,"text":"那當然這其中我們大概鎖定的領域包含機器人Age AI無人化的創新等等也包含IC設計領航的更新這邊"},{"start":3645.489,"end":3673.398,"text":"那我稍微再把它整個再掃一遍的話大概有幾個成長幅度比較多的我剛才列出來也給部長參考包含我們的科技專案那研發測試及藥品國產非營業特種經濟作業一般行政我是覺得還好就是說因為可能但是我是覺得公務人員好像減少這個剩下的公務人員負擔會很重這個公餐"},{"start":3674.238,"end":3696.349,"text":"那就其中這幾個的話我稍微再往下去把它追得到就是這個科技的研發就是我其實不反對但是如果從你的預算書這邊下來的話好像在法人這邊就是我們經濟部有巴納法人還有這個小人"},{"start":3696.869,"end":3714.278,"text":"那工研院大概這個預算基本上來講的話增加了26.93那金工大概他們兩個來講的話所佔的一個成果收入比例應該是算比較多的啦"},{"start":3715.066,"end":3737.456,"text":"那我的意思也沒有說他們兩個做不好因為這牽扯到一個問題因為有一個大法人不見了然後當你要擴增科技的法人科專補助的時候那你可能就會落到像公民院我們的大哥身上那個南部的金工那這不是不好但是我是覺得可能要幫其他小法人說說話"},{"start":3739.053,"end":3754.97,"text":"稍微要分散一下資源或者是公園院來做一個大阿哥做一個立的整合型的然後來做一些資源預算的分配這個請教部長跟市長的看法都可以好不好是我們現在的做法就是這樣就是"},{"start":3755.83,"end":3773.929,"text":"現在有一個競爭力的輔導團的一個計畫那就是由公營來做主政但是所有的法人通通要參加而且分區域那個太少啦我說有一些關鍵研發像訪研所啊 對不對或者是像這一個雖然支撐已經不照你們的法人嘛"},{"start":3774.349,"end":3791.417,"text":"或者是像這一個其他的不管是生技對不對食品加工就是說因為工業涵蓋很多領域所以在各個領域當中的研發著這一個關鍵技術可能就請我們的郭師長好好在locate說明一下就好了"},{"start":3792.217,"end":3814.112,"text":"跟委員報告那確實在公園院在我們的科技預算裡面它占比達到46 per person 確實是最高的那也是因為有一些比較長期的任務會希望公園院來做執行 而且是同和所有的發展所以我們公園院在張院長的帶領下"},{"start":3815.433,"end":3835.081,"text":"那也跟這個都明白我們節省時間你知道我要表達的是什麼就是說我們希望是說各個領域的法人我知道委員的意思了解謝謝那有沒有對公務員不慶就是基本上我就希望說大家是團結合作然後讓這個小法人這些來講各有其專長領域"},{"start":3836.462,"end":3853.628,"text":"那業學界的話我是也支持雖然它預算的暴增當然你鎖定了這些的一些題目但是可能外界可能比較會擔心的尤其就是說是不是就是某些特定的產業或特定的一些廠商"},{"start":3854.528,"end":3876.373,"text":"那這一陣子我接到比較多的就是在國際研發中心這一塊也就是我們補助美光設這些研發中心什麼等等但是這樣子我們本土的比如說南亞華邦電我覺得這一點他們會有點不太服氣雖然你南亞科後來也有補但是我覺得這一點的政策"},{"start":3877.313,"end":3901.533,"text":"以後可以稍微考慮一下因為他們也實在是很有錢了有些外商也不需要我們所以我這個建議是可以以本土的科技本土的廠商的研發這樣子的設計為主好不好這也請郭師長回去不用現在回答回去好好研究一下好那接下來的話這個是因為長年我都待在其實我比各位可能都熟"},{"start":3903.139,"end":3929.693,"text":"現在各個計畫這個資源切態稅第一個是我們部裡面我們有技術師產發署做一堆東西不管是AI機器人無人機IC設計應該也涵蓋了技術師跟產發署這個是部而已所以我是希望部長將來在統籌的時候不管無人機尤其現在是無人機然後這些晶片我覺得這個東西部要統籌一下因為不然到時候"},{"start":3930.974,"end":3945.807,"text":"這個整個總體就算是部長要扛那部長有這個東西之後還要再去跟跨部會不管是國科會書發布這些東西的會診不然的話我們在審預算的時候我們一定就會覺得說你們很多都是什麼"},{"start":3946.764,"end":3963.351,"text":"分工不均對不對然後這個預算科目會重疊預算重複資源的投入那到時候我們要救者比如說有功勞的時候到底算誰的失敗的時候算誰要救者還是 報告委員還是有一些區分啦即便我們部裡面來講的話"},{"start":3964.551,"end":3985.067,"text":"比較屬於技術端的部分那這個技術是要負責但是跟產業比較結合端的部分那個是我們產業發展署在負責所以才還是有技術上有上游跟下游的關係更早那個是就是國科會在負責那個非常學術界的研究那個就是因為這都十幾年的老問題這個講我都會講"},{"start":3989.631,"end":4014.591,"text":"所以我的意思就是說好好的去把這一個就起碼我也認識你們也都知道我的個性也知道我都很清楚所以說我們扎扎實實把國家的預算做到正確的地方那現在我比較擔心的其他這個我想就跳過去了因為像這個藥我是想說這個東西早就以前也有在做那又多了預算可能將來我們再看預算的時候你們的成果會是什麼"},{"start":4015.652,"end":4036.826,"text":"然後這個產發產業園區的這個60億循環專區的基金因為它現在60億啊蠻高的我想要問一下這個是是大嶺埔千村主要是那個機會對不對就是要為了千村編這個預算OK好那可能在後面的預算執行再詳細說明一下這樣就好好不好"},{"start":4037.466,"end":4061.39,"text":"因為我想說突然暴增這麼多那另外一個想要跟這個部這邊的話好像是吳文基這裡因為吳文基在過去審計部在做這個審查你們經濟部相關的預算113年的時候我記得是在就是他認為在2024年底這幾個非保控籌載通訊晶片設計到2024嘛 113這個還是一個瓶頸那114"},{"start":4065.871,"end":4083.669,"text":"一是去年應該有做一些東西了現在這些技術的缺口是不是有補起來現在我記得應該是希望2027年是不是把它補起來這樣子就是說晶片的開發或等等的一些情況因為我為什麼會這樣問就是說因為這個地方的話你們編了很多的預算"},{"start":4089.275,"end":4113.738,"text":"無人化創新這講給全國觀眾聽都很奇怪無人化創新科技無人化多元應用關鍵研發測試場域這次也是那個無人載叫無人載具產業發展統籌型計畫因為它有分成幾個部分無人化的部分一個部分就是場域的建設包括在這個嘉義的這些都是無人機還是無人車還是無人船還是"},{"start":4115.401,"end":4121.444,"text":"主要是無人機的部分所以無人機這邊的話全部都是無人機但是現在無人船也有場域場域的開發我現在就是說這幾個都是無人機"},{"start":4129.841,"end":4143.714,"text":"目前來講主要是無人機比較多應該都是有這四個因為它都編不同計畫的名字它不一樣一個是場域的開發一個是科技上的補助然後另外當然還有就是就是我們各部會有一個統籌型要買無人機那個預算"},{"start":4146.136,"end":4171.043,"text":"對 所以我的意思說這可能在上面因為我們在審預算的時候就是這個很confuse就是你到底這邊全部都是無人機還是無人載具因為無人載具又更廣嘛 對不對所以到底是focus是什麼可能將來在預算我們在執行的時候我們這樣也比較容易追績效跟追這個成果因為如果你的一些關鍵技術沒有起來那你這些的場域然後你們號稱輸出國際這些"},{"start":4174.625,"end":4182.172,"text":"這個行政院副院長講很多書我就搞不懂那既然關鍵技術這還沒起來那你的輸出國際跟一大堆的採買要飛鴻供應鏈這當中是怎麼銜接"},{"start":4186.693,"end":4214.196,"text":"因為現在可以輸出的話當然裡面有一些晶片當然是用國外沒有錯但是我們現在是整機是可以出口的很多廠商它已經對它整機那我們本土化的這個自製我們會比例是多少對那就是剛剛那幾項的這個晶片還沒有過那個晶片不是說我們好沒關係這個再請那個那個晶片不是我們做不出來而是因為它早期這個市場規模不夠大所以我們的"},{"start":4215.317,"end":4242.635,"text":"這個大廠都不願意投入這個部分沒關係啦這個我們就是看到說他執行的比例對不對然後國產化的拉到什麼程度然後因為你要有商機有市場才會有那這裡到底是軍規還是商規的輸出出口這個都請一個禮拜給我一個報告好不好因為我對無人機這個發展我們當然都是支持但我們希望他是對的錢花在對的地方真正去落實好不好好謝謝"},{"start":4262.445,"end":4264.006,"text":"好 接下來我們請鍾嘉賓委員質詢"},{"start":4275.492,"end":4292.334,"text":"好 主席在場的委員先進列席了總局長 總管官員 會長 工作夥伴 媒體機構的女士新生有請經濟部鞏部長以及水利署的林署長和台水公司的李董事長台水李董事長中委員長安"},{"start":4293.54,"end":4314.471,"text":"部長好 署長好 董事長好來 我們來關心一下上週是發生了一個叫做翡翠水庫的事情因為關心到我們水資源調度跟未來的水價來 我們往下看這個翡翠水庫的水資源流失是因為錯誤調度根據媒體報導因為台北市政府由於受到監察院的糾正"},{"start":4316.172,"end":4344.429,"text":"說因為你們過去曾經有5億噸的水流入大海所以要被監察院糾正因此管理局就說好啊那既然我被糾正我來台電說我要跟你收耗水補償費請問一下部長翡翠水為了水利發電的尾水是屬於流到大海消耗掉的嗎可以收耗水費嗎怎麼說應該是法律上是這個依據是有問題的依據法律上法律是哪一個法"},{"start":4345.031,"end":4366.628,"text":"就是水利法那我問一下水利發電的水有被浪費掉流到大海嗎沒有那既然沒有就不是監察院糾正台北市政府他水資源浪費的原因那到底台北市政府他的水資源浪費被監察院糾正的原因是什麼剛剛事實上曾董事長也有講事實上我們調度他的水只有150噸"},{"start":4369.858,"end":4390.765,"text":"來請說我們收的那個耗水費那個量是115萬噸他這個是5億所以他結論講的是他那個水流下來翡翠流出來的水沒有辦法全部運用我想這才是監察院調查的最主要的一個水利署你們專業看法怎麼看"},{"start":4393.308,"end":4408.168,"text":"報告委員這個依照法規耗水費它事實上是用在工業大戶為原則每天300度的一個大戶那工業用水我們是為了要節用水使用那請問水公司有沒有付耗水費"},{"start":4410.901,"end":4429.054,"text":"跟委員報告,耗水費是由水利署來開徵對,開徵對誰?你有沒有被開徵過耗水費?水工是沒有被開徵過那你們用原水要不要付錢?要付付給誰?水庫的管理單位水庫的管理單位那因為水利署不是你們管的啦對我說其他的水庫用水庫的水你們有付錢嗎?有"},{"start":4430.94,"end":4459.443,"text":"像石溫水庫或是翡翠水庫離台水庫因為翡翠水庫是專攻台北市因為台北市的水公司跟我們不一樣它是北水處對它是北水處那你們不是你們不攻台北市的水我們還要請台北自來水事業處支援我們新北的供水那翡翠水庫除了供應台北之外還支援新北好那你們跟其他的南部的水庫用水有沒有付耗水費"},{"start":4460.114,"end":4480.735,"text":"沒有耗水費那好啦那我又不懂啦來部長那奇怪了那到底說工業大戶可以水庫管理機關可以跟他收耗水費但是可能使用水庫水很大量的是自來水公司那台北市政府他的翡翠水庫他自己拿來自己用自來水他當然不用收費嘛他不會收嘛那"},{"start":4481.635,"end":4496.769,"text":"那其他的水庫有去收過耗水費嗎因為耗水費基本上是中央的中央的稅收是啦只有中央可以收所以他就是他想要跟台電簽約但是台電說這樣他不願意簽所以說了半天"},{"start":4497.87,"end":4519.771,"text":"監察院糾正台北市政府他轉移焦點說然後轉過頭來說要跟台電收耗水費耗水費也不是他能收的他要透過簽約的商業行為來跟台電簽來我們看一下這個事情不是昨天才發生不是上週才發生是去年的11月4號的時候他們的水庫管理局的這個林育毅局長在回答議員質詢的時候說"},{"start":4521.212,"end":4526.929,"text":"台電曾經發文九次請他同意供水來發電有沒有這個事實"},{"start":4529.434,"end":4557.092,"text":"九次嘛,我看到去年,是啦,所以去年就講了嘛那因為呢,後來他們要調高跟你們收費,台電就覺得你怎麼可以跟我說這個錢呢,就沒有同意嘛所以這個新聞會再出來,台北市政府是借題發揮嘛去年11月4號,市議會有人做球問他,他就講了但是依法他不能收耗水費,他就轉頭來跟台電說我要再跟你重新預約,預約的內容是要調高,地方米要調高為3元,是這樣嗎"},{"start":4558.693,"end":4580.109,"text":"他是對他是說超過的部分要每度要加三要三元但是翡翠水庫的電水比很低啊就是幾乎是五噸水才發一度電所以你如果給我收三元他就成本會變所以他要跟台電收這個一度就是一立方米來說一度因為電也是度啦水也是度啦一立方米的水收三塊錢一立方米有去嗎"},{"start":4582.542,"end":4606.992,"text":"這個我們不在這個耗水費範圍內 而且我跟委員報告其實水力發電沒有把水用掉 它只是因為那個高低差未能 我們只是只是利用那個 利用水的未能沒有把水用掉嘛對 那完全是兩件事情好 謝謝 部長知道了齁今天啊 這個事情是在台北市政府面對自己的市議會面對監察院的糾正"},{"start":4608.814,"end":4618.23,"text":"然後他轉過頭來要發作在台電省上請問台電有沒有供電給台北市有沒有 當然有有沒有收取差別電價"},{"start":4619.758,"end":4640.243,"text":"目前還沒有沒有啊所以做一個國營事業 公用事業他當然水公司你們的水費是不是全國都一致就扣除台北 台北你們管不到對是嗎所以連我們屏東供應最多水給水公司的也一樣對不對好我們現在看來謝謝謝謝來我們來看一下就問水公司了"},{"start":4640.803,"end":4656.232,"text":"屏東自來水的普及率全國最低啊那原因是什麼?簡單講,因為我問過好幾次了根據我報告,其實屏東早期它地下水脈是很豐富地下水豐沛嘛,不用錢的就不用贏嘛,要求錢的就不用贏嘛好,來部長,我要請你拜託部長承諾"},{"start":4660.816,"end":4678.273,"text":"就是說往下看其實呢除了這個之外我們還有水資源的運用效率屏東縣自來水的普及化感謝中央我們這連續幾年來大力的支持前瞻計畫八年那個八千億都有在支持對不對可是前瞻計畫結束了嘛"},{"start":4679.094,"end":4694.608,"text":"接下來經濟部支票繼續爭取編列預算幫助屏東的自來水普及為什麼因為如果下的雨留不住漏的水也擋不了因為屏東的自來水普及率全國最低之外漏水率也是很高的那這個改善需要工程部長怎麼辦"},{"start":4696.029,"end":4721.975,"text":"我們還是會持續啊雖然前瞻預算已經結束了但是有關於這個自來水不管是無自來水也好或是漏水這個部分本來就是水利署不是或者是經濟部還有水公司最重要的工作是的所以我們不忍心看因為這個工程推動受到工程的進度預算的編列我們也希望把這個漏水率把它降低嘛因為水資源是珍貴的嘛"},{"start":4722.355,"end":4750.2,"text":"台北市那麼斤斤計較翡翠水庫的水我們也很計較說我們水公司的水運到用戶之前不要漏掉嘛所以改善漏水率是不是當務之急是好往下看所以呢水公司執行量呢我們看了一下喔113年114年比起來暫比呢位階的水庫啊都還持續的微微的下降那水公司的執行的量能過去有關心過有沒有有沒有辦法再增加除了預算之外有沒有受到我們工程量能的限制"},{"start":4751.175,"end":4775.664,"text":"部長工程量對因為不是說錢你丟給他就會做你要有工班啊所以對董事長跟委員報告其實我們屏東地區啦現在剛才委員所指正的就我們積極在增加一些鹽管而且對既有的老舊的管線也在幫汰換那這些都需要我們的水管承裝商來協助我們是那"},{"start":4776.264,"end":4796.309,"text":"所有屏東區域的廠商確實是還不夠我們會從鄰近的縣市甚至我們會去跟水管商工會請他們多來協助我們屏東地區多來參與我們的標案謝謝部長我要說的是水工是已經全力以赴不只用我們屏東的包商各地區的包商都來支援"},{"start":4796.869,"end":4819.208,"text":"但是報章跟我反映說什麼我們比例是最高的沒有錯我連續問了好幾年了但是如果預算延宕的話我們可不可以發包已經刮槓就刮不腐了你有時候就給我錢錢我是不是把那個時間融入到那個上面部長你了解嗎我知道好在這個是屬於延續性計畫所以不會受影響"},{"start":4820.149,"end":4843.763,"text":"不會受影響所以如果預算不會受影響工期就要趕快的調度工班來加速進行遏止除了提高我們的普及率之外也要遏止這個漏水率好不好好那就請部長指示我們署長指示董事長加速進行還有建議那個曾董事長以後台電在面對台北市的他們都叫我們管理處的處長來跟你們"},{"start":4846.02,"end":4866.673,"text":"這個校正啊 我是希望你們要清楚的回應台電公司使用水 輸入的水來發電不屬於耗水費的範疇 第二耗水費也不是你台北市政府可以主張的 好嗎說清楚講明白 部長可以嗎 可以可以 謝謝好 謝謝鍾嘉斌委員 謝謝部長接下來有請陳廷飛委員質詢"},{"start":4875.919,"end":4876.22,"text":"我們請經濟部長"},{"start":4885.786,"end":4914.04,"text":"陳委員早安部長我們這次丹納斯颱風其實有發現了一個很重大的問題就是我們石棉瓦的一個處理當時候因為我反應之後本來我們的工廠它是沒有補助的最後我們有補助它的一個石棉瓦處理其實為什麼要這個補助它的重點是政府的後端協助"},{"start":4915.478,"end":4931.998,"text":"如果我們政府的後端協助有幫忙石棉瓦的去處我們就可以掌控可是現在基本上我們還有很多石棉瓦還沒有完成清理這個部分要怎麼辦我們工廠也有啊是"},{"start":4933.099,"end":4955.438,"text":"也感謝上次委員的這個協調後來因為陳委員的這個所以我們改成這個每一個廠補助20萬原來是一家公司但是現在是每一個廠都有這是委員的建議我們也採納但是因為當初在這個行政院在跨部會協商的時候這個廢棄物運送是屬於環境部負責"},{"start":4958.922,"end":4974.652,"text":"那我想我們再來跟環境部門看看怎麼樣協調就是說加速因為最主要都是去處的問題其實我們補助是說我們政府有要幫他處理這最末端的一個石棉瓦"},{"start":4975.618,"end":4998.724,"text":"整理還有他能夠這個不會再重複的一個受害因為石棉瓦非常的毒啊是這個問題啊讓他不會是造成二次傷害所以我覺得我們要的是這個後端的去處環境部怎麼幫忙怎麼處理我們地方政府怎麼幫忙"},{"start":4999.864,"end":5012.673,"text":"我們要的是在這個脈絡所以是不是可以拜託我們的部長在這個區塊有企業的有工廠的如果他們還有石棉瓦後端處理還有問題的我們該怎麼辦"},{"start":5015.035,"end":5034.646,"text":"是不是去了解一下 好不好然後也協調這個環境部還有地方政府看怎麼來把這個事情處理掉對 因為我們不要讓它造成二次傷害因為過去可能沒有注意到這麼嚴重的問題可是一個淡納斯颱風之後把整個都吹垮"},{"start":5035.819,"end":5064.989,"text":"逼著大家不去面對不行那既然問題產生了我們要怎麼積極化也是我們相關部會要跨部會協調因為不是我們經濟部就處理得了就像說石明瓦的專業處理是在環境部環境部他怎麼去協調能夠處理的廠商給予一個後端的一個指示這才是我們的關鍵所以拜託我們的部長"},{"start":5065.849,"end":5091.016,"text":"那再來我們這個115年我們的公建計劃重要的公建計劃其實我們有幾個其實從台電到台水到水利署可能都是我們跟經濟部比較關係的好我們的台電包括我們南區的一起輸變電專案計劃南科超高壓變電所擴建計劃還有變電所診所的"},{"start":5094.637,"end":5109.082,"text":"改建一期專案計畫這個部分我們到底進行到什麼程度是只有等預算嗎來我們的董事長跟委員報告因為我們是實業單位那我們還是會做一些提前的規劃"},{"start":5110.763,"end":5125.226,"text":"但是就是預算的審查當然我們一些新興計畫尤其是計畫性的支出如果沒有審過我們只能夠要提報上級機關准我們提前動之那我事業單位是彈性比較大一點但是還是要補很多行政程序"},{"start":5126.107,"end":5143.896,"text":"所以我們這幾樣這個部分我們已經都有初期的整個計畫跟規劃了所以只要我們的預算一到位那基本上是沒有問題的我們跟委員報告那個您都知道因為您也是關心我們電力建設其實我們現在狀況就是"},{"start":5144.716,"end":5155.789,"text":"我們可以先走 基本上我們就先走啦狀況就是這個樣子那預算的部分如果你是計劃支出計劃性的支出那那個就一定要經過國會的審議但是還是針對"},{"start":5159.753,"end":5183.519,"text":"先期作業可以先做的所以這三樣都是我們地方非常重要的喔南區一起輸變電的專案計畫還有南科超高壓變電所擴建計畫還有變電所的一個改建一起專案計畫這都很重要喔所以這個部分只要我們預算一過應該就沒有問題了吧"},{"start":5185.299,"end":5212.484,"text":"因為前期作業都已經做了這個拜託要幫我們加緊因為我們現在是現在是4月了所以我們預算過了已經到5月6月了所以我們希望是同步進行了還有我們的台水就是我們降低漏水率的計畫這個是從114年到121年還有五自來水地區供水改善計畫的第五期"},{"start":5213.644,"end":5233.303,"text":"喔 好不容易欸 你知道嗎 從第一期我們撐到第五期欸董事長 這應該都沒有問題 也一樣我們的規劃都已經在上路了 只是在等這個預算吧延續計畫 所以我們可以有比較好的進度啦但是因為預算還沒有過 所以會稍微保守一點"},{"start":5233.983,"end":5262.521,"text":"對 所以說只要現在預算過了我們要加速趕快預算過好不容易送送到各委員會來審了好 趕快過了之後我們會加緊腳步吧我覺得這很重要雖然我們立法院因為政黨之間的問題可是我覺得不要影響到我們在地方的發展這才是最重要的那麼還有一個就是水利署的部分其實我要拜託的就是說我們"},{"start":5263.482,"end":5289.919,"text":"台南說真的 如果沒有從過去的八年八百億一路的延伸治水預算的一些特別預算 前瞻預算 我跟你講啦現在可能我們陰乾眯眯冒冒但是因為有這些預算 很多人都說 阿不然你們是做在哪裡 我跟你講啦 如果不做這裡啦我看台南啦 只要一下雨就是水箱折果了啦"},{"start":5290.852,"end":5308.993,"text":"所以因為有做了這些規劃然後我們現在都有一些關鍵的地方需要靠著我們經濟部的這些預算所以我一直在強調一些關鍵性的我們要盤整一下我現在也在拜託市政府做盤整"},{"start":5310.154,"end":5336.373,"text":"就是關鍵性 我們現在做到很多個月可是有哪些關鍵性做下去之後 馬上就解決了一期 二期 不論是哪一個主要計畫的一期 二期 三期那個關鍵做下去 整個就都通了這個才是讓人民有感的所以我拜託 我們一定要從這些我請市政府盤整完之後這些重要的關鍵 盲腸斷了"},{"start":5339.375,"end":5363.947,"text":"這些通了之後就沒問題的這個部分一定要優先這一定要優先這個可能要拜託我們的部長還有水利署署長我們在整個中央管流域的整體改善還有調適計劃我常在舉我們的曾文熙我們的白水系統你看我們做了多久到現在這個地方通了整個就覺得好像"},{"start":5367.489,"end":5387.335,"text":"整個地方都看到所有的曙光了所以這才是問題還有我們因應氣候變遷縣市管河川及排水整體改善計畫這兩個計畫都是關鍵雖然我們前面的中央管是從110年到115年"},{"start":5390.51,"end":5418.372,"text":"剛好到今年我相信後面都還會有延續啦可是這個都是關鍵然後呢因應氣候變遷縣市管河川及排水整體改善計畫是從115年到118年多對今年開始啦所以所以這個新的要從哪邊關鍵做起這個才是關鍵再拜託我們的部長跟署長謝謝"},{"start":5421.598,"end":5446.335,"text":"好 謝謝陳廷輝委員謝謝部長接下來有請鄭天才委員質詢好 主席有請部長有請工部長經濟部的會計處處長也上來會計處處長"},{"start":5452.129,"end":5457.214,"text":"蔣委員早安部長好今天這個審查預算"},{"start":5459.534,"end":5470.162,"text":"我們看這個今天經濟部的報告裡面特別提到稅出預算編列情形總共編列了這個1480.28億然後較上年度增加350.02億請問一下這個會計處的處長去年呢去年度經濟部主管的預算執行數是多少"},{"start":5491.215,"end":5518.769,"text":"執行率就是執行數就是乘以98.57執行數也可以換算一下好沒關係再順便補充執行數這個好我們來看預算法第54條規定很清楚這個支出的部分瓜福二"},{"start":5519.924,"end":5537.174,"text":"上年度执行数何时动之也就是说这个经济部114年度的执行数虽然我们在115年度的总预算还没有通过但是上年度的执行数可以动之"},{"start":5538.164,"end":5563.871,"text":"大概一千億左右吧所以很多所以現在才四月嘛所以應該應該很充裕然後呢這個履行其他法定義務之收支這個一樣最重要的大家一直很關心的新興資本支出及新增計劃經立法院同意者不在此限"},{"start":5565.14,"end":5591.521,"text":"所以這個會計處處長未來以後通常1月完成預算整查通常立法院1月超過1月的時候就要提醒部長新興資本支出及新增計劃函報行政院轉立法院同意就不會有問題就如同因為你們沒有報"},{"start":5592.867,"end":5615.9,"text":"所以國民黨團跟民眾黨團在今年的1月16號比你們還早比審議算的時間還早1月16號就提出新興資本這個需要先行同意經濟部主管的總共有四項總共134.75億"},{"start":5621.772,"end":5631.397,"text":"啊這已經這個立法院同意商業出了所同意動之請問一下部長這個行政院發文了嗎"},{"start":5633.137,"end":5659.011,"text":"昨天發文 昨天發文主計總署很早就發文行政院主計總署很早就發文擺在院長的桌上很久啊如果是我當部長我就會拜託那個院長趕快批啊 趕快批啊因為很多委員都說尤其是民進黨的立委都說這個很重要很重要所以這個部分以後要多多溝通協調了好這個"},{"start":5663.646,"end":5679.375,"text":"經濟部的一般性補助款預算請問一下會計處處長這個部長比較不會知道這個一般性補助款114年度跟115年度有沒有什麼差別"},{"start":5681.327,"end":5708.217,"text":"報告委員我先補充一下剛才委員垂詢的數字我們去年執行的數字大概是1,120億那委員提到的一般性補助款大概我們是跟去年的預算看起來去年是編在經濟部整個放在經濟部那今年把所有對地方的補助款單獨拉到一般性補助款所以大概很多都是延續性的計畫好沒有什麼變動嗎大部分都延續性了好謝謝好"},{"start":5711.776,"end":5739.049,"text":"這個中央對直轄市及縣市政府補助辦法這個也請經濟這個水利署署長也上來這個辦法定得很清楚對於這個第三條的第一項的第一款中央各機關依財力即次給不同補助比例且最高補助比例不得超過90%但有下一個情形是一則不在此限有三個部分"},{"start":5739.534,"end":5768.356,"text":"我今天要特別談的原住民族重要建設計畫可以超過90%按照這個條文的是可以超過90%好奔溪在今年1月21號召開協調會針對台東縣的無自來水地區供水改善計畫這個相關的沿管還有這個系統這簡易自來水系統"},{"start":5769.97,"end":5781.291,"text":"營運的補助這個補助啊這個部長那個你們減少了對台東縣的補助是零喔"},{"start":5782.543,"end":5798.924,"text":"因為主要是我先說明一下自來水鹽管那個是水公司他付的錢所以是民眾地方政府不用付那另外就是其他的部分包括檢疫自來水或等等因為台東台東縣他就是已經被評為他這個"},{"start":5801.246,"end":5818.076,"text":"財政是第一級是最好的狀況因為他原來從這個統籌分配款從60億變成281億部長我都了解理由啦你們的理由我都了解但是我要說明的是說剛才條文訂得很清楚"},{"start":5819.332,"end":5849.052,"text":"援助民族重要建設計畫可以超過90%何況以前也沒有那麼高所以我們只是希望你們維持我們有跟行政院做一些討論如果真的有必要因為您剛才提到那個第三項可以簽給行政院專簽那我們會用這個方式不用專簽你看一下行政院主計總署答覆本席的公文針對我1月21號的公文的會議記錄答覆了"},{"start":5850.833,"end":5877.43,"text":"是否屬補助辦法第三條但屬鎖定原住民族重要建設計畫能由各主管機關自行認定所以經濟部可以來認定而且它確實是為什麼呢在去年呢你們都把它列為原住民族建設經費列為原住民族建設經費所以可以是符合那個辦法的第三條而且"},{"start":5879.189,"end":5894.156,"text":"台東縣我們整個台灣 全台灣包括金門 馬祖 離島供水普及率90%以上的有19個直轄市縣市19個未達90%的有5個縣市其中台東縣只有83.9%所以這個部分更是需要列為"},{"start":5909.152,"end":5930.006,"text":"維持我們不講說90%以上至於起碼維持去年以前的補助的比例部長可以趕快核定嗎主席總書雖然講說可以我們調整但是還是要送到他那邊去那就趕快簽請經濟部水利署趕快簽這個非常非常的重要"},{"start":5937.472,"end":5954.999,"text":"最後這個經濟委員會在113年曾經去會刊到台東這是一個已經很久了的老案子而且是有提防 已經有提防在題內"},{"start":5957.213,"end":5978.524,"text":"所以這個部分你們當初說這個富岡南段1052地號這是我們原住民祖先使用的土地就是因為你們把它列為河川漆液內所以一直沒有辦法取得原住民保留地然後這個事實上它是在"},{"start":5979.744,"end":6004.964,"text":"和有堤防啊 這幾十年的堤防在那邊呢好 署長趕快處理報告委員 這個案件城門委員的幫忙 幫忙很多我們現在那個治理計畫已經檢討完成那正在做最後的河川區限劃出去的一個程序那預期7月份就可以把這個土地劃出去就會變成不適合河川地 沒有問題謝謝委員的指導好 加油加油 好 謝謝"},{"start":6006.769,"end":6027.391,"text":"好 謝謝鄭天才委員謝謝部長 接下來有請謝依鳳委員質詢好 謝謝主席 我想要請部長 請郭部長"},{"start":6034.645,"end":6059.698,"text":"部長早安我想請教一下你們在115年度編列了210.57億對於國人用電就是在ASCO的部分那我想請問你這一筆預算要怎麼分配以及執行過去郭部長在講他說這個ASCO他是希望能夠用"},{"start":6060.538,"end":6082.115,"text":"就是節省下來的電費來支付相關的廠商的服務費然後有致償性那現在是不是維持原樣以及未來要怎麼樣子來促進廠商跟這個節能技術服務單位的這樣子的媒合怎麼樣做呢"},{"start":6082.515,"end":6099.946,"text":"也包括委員那個200多億主要它有幾個項目不是只有Exco而已它還有再增能源強化電網韌性還有智慧電網等等一些情況那Exco的部分是深度節能那個部分那我們有補助廠商來做我是不是請那個署長"},{"start":6103.208,"end":6128.705,"text":"跟委員報告那個補助廠商的部分就是我們現在有個計畫就是說未來他引入X口他如果有節電的話我們會相對給他一些獎勵措施那這個在今年預算有編列那編列多少那你怎麼樣做你怎麼樣子讓就是說讓那些技術單位去協助廠商呢協助我們真正需要的廠商來做這樣節能的那個方式呢"},{"start":6129.065,"end":6151.886,"text":"他就是進去以後他會比如說幫他做節能診斷然後可能要做一些劑量然後他要去劃一個基線然後那你是不是有分區啊分區來做還是怎麼樣子做我印象是好像是我們是一個整個的然後業者可以來申請這個細節部分我會再跟委員一個報告"},{"start":6152.978,"end":6180.671,"text":"好 那你看你現在都沒有準備好是不是我們現在已經開始要審預算了你這相關的計畫以及你相關做到什麼程度你都沒有準備好是不是有計畫補助好 那還有我想要請問部長就是你對於波普石油基金辦理住宅的家電效率升級就是在家戶的屋頂設置太陽能光電可是你知道嗎"},{"start":6181.691,"end":6206.49,"text":"現在太陽能光電目前有面臨到的第一個我們過去的就是說光電板是不是它的光電的發電的效率能夠足夠以及現在設立光電板會不會造成就是臨近的就是零幣設施的這樣子的一個抗議或者是申請那有沒有辦法達到相關的目標呢"},{"start":6208.07,"end":6231.052,"text":"屋頂型爭議比較小啦當然就是說效率提升的部分我們技術上是持續在進行希望他那個太陽能板的這個發電的轉換效率可以提升那當然現在也有一些新的規定比如說將來新的這個比較大型的這個建築這個1000平方公尺以上"},{"start":6231.933,"end":6254.134,"text":"事實上他必須要設置這個太陽能板也有這樣的規定那以下我們當然是用鼓勵的方式就用這個輔助鼓勵的方式那但是就是說你這樣子在加護設立太陽能板那有沒有難道能夠有助於就是說現在太陽能光電的這樣子整個在再生能源佔比的目標的達成嗎"},{"start":6255.317,"end":6271.027,"text":"事實上我們現在整個太陽能的裝置容量事實上是屋頂型還超過地面型就是整個來講的話是這個屋頂型是超過地面型那在家戶呢"},{"start":6272.97,"end":6288.806,"text":"家戶的部分到屋頂形式就是有很多的那個現在我們主要還是針對這個比較大戶的部分那我剛才特別提到家戶的部分如果是比較小面積我們是用鼓勵的方式用補助的方式"},{"start":6289.807,"end":6303.54,"text":"那補助的方式會不會就是說當然我們要補助也希望說能夠提高發電效率那這個部分你怎麼樣做因為你總是要讓加護的太陽能光電能夠達到一個目標那你們預計達成的目標是什麼"},{"start":6305.842,"end":6331.565,"text":"那那個署長咧 有沒有預計達成目標跟委員報告一下 那個小用戶的部分因為他面積比較小 他不像其他比較大面積的那你預計他達成你整個太陽能關電裡面的佔比的目標是多少我們現在 原來我們是屋頂型的全部是8G我們現在已經到10G了那我們還有繼續滾動檢討 把屋頂型的部分再加強"},{"start":6332.485,"end":6350.912,"text":"我們現在補助小屋頂是因為小屋頂它的成本比較高因為它屋頂面積小施工比較麻煩所以我們有另外給它補助那另外如果是你自發自用型的我們還會加強補助就是鼓勵民眾去捨然後增強它自己的供電韌性那我是說你目標是多少嗎"},{"start":6351.952,"end":6380.19,"text":"我們現在是你沒有目標是不是我們現在原來的8G已經達成了那我們現在已經超過了那我們後續會滾動檢討所以你希望就是能增加嘛對不對你要增加多少啊我們現在有在繼續檢討當中因為我們現在主力就是希望屋頂能夠多推一點所以你還是沒有想到就是一個比較明確的目標還是部長沒有給你目標"},{"start":6382.587,"end":6405.912,"text":"因為他們原來設定的目標當然已經超過了但是現在就是能夠超過多少越多當然是越好那預計可以超過多少因為這涉及到就是說各個縣市那未來如果要推動這樣子的政策的時候那你相關的協助以及就是經濟部你的力道是多大我們再來規劃一下"},{"start":6408.353,"end":6427.16,"text":"还有就是我看到了科专计划增列了68.23亿对于IC设计以及无人机关键技术的开发那我想请教一下无人机的非红供应链里面目前你关键技术的自给率目标是多少"},{"start":6429.072,"end":6456.067,"text":"將來希望可以達到百分之百都可以自己做想要做百分之百就是自己能夠做當然廠商他也可以用飛鴻的零件都可以但是至少我們自己要能夠做那可是我看到你編列不會受到說人家不供應的時候我們產生困難這樣子那對我看到的是你們好像只有編列6點多億嘛這是一個整個項目嘛可是無人機的部分是不是"},{"start":6457.837,"end":6473.289,"text":"因為無人機的部分事實上它是我們負責是一個統籌型的計畫但是它的預算不是全部編在我們經濟部不是在我們經濟部不是全部因為其他的部會採買的部分是編在其他的部會對 可是經濟部也"},{"start":6473.669,"end":6495.989,"text":"就是說我在問的是關鍵技術的部分因為經濟部對於他技術的協助以及就是說對於整個產業鏈是不是能夠有效的建立起來那我相信這是經濟部比較著重以及需要做的部分是 我們今年編的是技術的部分技術的是38億"},{"start":6498.111,"end":6517.605,"text":"對是38億不是6億是38億是不是那所以你們希望達成的目標是整個我們無人機的所有的關鍵技術都可以自給自足對都可以自己至少能夠對於飛鴻供應鏈裡面那還有我們還有其他競爭的對手"},{"start":6520.038,"end":6536.429,"text":"現在很多人都要跟我們合作包括中東歐的國家波蘭、捷克事實上我們出口很多那現在連法國也要跟我們合作都願意跟我們千年莫一無來做一些合作因為他們知道台灣在製造能力跟量產能力是非常強的"},{"start":6537.29,"end":6556.108,"text":"那未來我們量產能力呢?那對於產業的整個供應鏈,就是說產業的產值呢?產值我們希望將來到400億啦那因為我們其實講到的無人機的就是飛鴻供應鏈當然不是只講就是我們講的還有一些是商用機嘛,對不對?"},{"start":6558.55,"end":6571.156,"text":"也有在商用不只有在軍工現在大家在討論的軍工的部分嘛其實有一部分也在商用的部分嘛那在商用的部分就是說飛鴻供應鏈有它什麼立即點因為它還是要有資訊安全的問題啦所以能夠飛鴻的話"},{"start":6581.514,"end":6597.14,"text":"當然這些國家也都願意因為它有些還是公務用途雖然不是軍事用途但是比如說警察的巡檢或者是水利設施的巡檢等等一些情況這些都是屬於公務用途那"},{"start":6598.46,"end":6623.893,"text":"所以我觉得就是说经济部那如果真的要协助就是说国内厂商然后以及相关的领主建都可以达到就是说都可以进入这整个全球的这个非红供应链的这个体系里面那我觉得那以目前经济部所做的那希望说你们能够真的达到百分之百因为从目前看起来好像离百分之百是不是还有点距离"},{"start":6625.294,"end":6644.352,"text":"所以我們希望現在有幾個晶片的開發那剩下是在進行當然有一些有一些廠商已經在開發了我們就用業界科專來補助他們跟他們做一些合作那國內還沒有一些廠商這些技術上ready我們就請公務員先來做開發然後再寄轉給他們"},{"start":6647.435,"end":6668.871,"text":"還有就是中小企業要導入AI這個部分其實中小企業還有非常大的疑慮因為第一個就是過去沒有接觸過或者是就是AI data的資料庫建立上面不是那麼樣子的有辦法立即所以你們有編了144億請問你這個就是怎麼樣子協助中小企業導入"},{"start":6673.095,"end":6681.331,"text":"8委員我們現在有一個所謂的這個競爭力的一些輔導團那大概有20幾個法人共同來參與那分的"},{"start":6684.857,"end":6703.751,"text":"就是北中南東有分了四個區域事實上我們是主動的去了解中小企業需要怎麼樣設計轉型可是中小企業有一百多萬家是不是是所以我們有分區域啊那有需要的部分先做診斷等等一些情況那有一些中小企業說老實話因為他的業務事實上是比較單純所以用"},{"start":6706.473,"end":6722.94,"text":"線上的這個APP就可以服務他們那這個佔有那我們會跟他的這個你會分別類會盤點好嗎會因為他們有一些只要需要他們在這個減碳的部分是需要減碳那我們就減碳跟這個數位轉型一起幫他"},{"start":6724.02,"end":6750.411,"text":"那事實上很多的中小企業是有這樣的我是認為你們應該要先分門別類因為目前中小企業對於政府要推動這個AI的導入的部分他們認為在協助上面好像沒有那麼立即沒有像過去在產業設備升級這個部分這樣子非常有立竿見影的效果那未來在AI導入的協助的部分那也希望我們經濟部能夠"},{"start":6752.692,"end":6770.56,"text":"想出一個比較好的方式第一個如果在怎麼樣子的情況下什麼樣的規模情況下可以用APP的方式什麼樣的情況下是由法人來共同協助的嗎是有分就是我們會了解這個廠商他事實上導入AI他還是有分等級啊"},{"start":6771.46,"end":6797.312,"text":"他可能他的作業型他比較單純的可能就是比較單純的但是有一些是製造商他需要用AI的方式提升他的製造效率那我們就會請法人進駐然後改善他的製程對啊我們還是要把我們就是AI導入協助應該還是要救傳產以及就是我們中小企業為主好不好以中小企業而且分成44個次產業"},{"start":6799.389,"end":6806.093,"text":"好 沒關係 因為時間超時太長 好 謝謝不好意思好 謝謝謝毓芬委員接下來請呂一林委員質詢謝謝主席 請工部長請工部長呂委員好"},{"start":6830.51,"end":6837.336,"text":"過去大陸透過了貿易壁壘的調查以及檢驗我們的產品為由對我們壓迫了農產品跟工商產品的出口近期內我們看到大陸也提出了10項會台的措施希望能夠重新釋出善意"},{"start":6852.389,"end":6854.692,"text":"前天我們全國商總特別也為了此事開了這個記者會呼籲政府能夠以產業的發展跟人民的福祉為本正面的來回應大陸但是我們經濟部卻是擺出了非常強硬的態度認為我們台灣"},{"start":6870.652,"end":6885.412,"text":"經濟已經走出自己的路了照這樣子的看法部長是不是你們就認為說台灣是有本錢完全能夠放棄中國大陸這個貿易的關係不是我們沒有要放棄跟中國的經貿關係"},{"start":6886.874,"end":6892.098,"text":"是分散這個多元市場的開發因為大陸是我們出口的第二大的國家佔了我們26.64%所以我們在這種情形之下當然剛剛部長都提到了我們還要做的就是要分散風險但是產業的新生也請你們要去聽產業希望"},{"start":6913.215,"end":6940.103,"text":"他是希望你們能夠永續健康的來讓我們的貿易關係啊可以尋求一個可行的方式這很重要吧所以你這樣來這樣去也擺脫不了這個關係啊畢竟是第二大出口國家所以我們不是說刻意的要跟他斷絕關係沒有這樣的意思是說我們要多一點市場的開發比如說像我們之前對美談判的時候我們也希望就是說廠商可以開發歐洲市場"},{"start":6940.703,"end":6944.244,"text":"所以我們也希望你們也可以回應我們產業的心聲啦重視一下正式產業的心聲好不好來輔導他們可以走上國際更好的競爭力好不好那剛剛提到說我們要分散風險跟拓展多元的這個佈局要協助我們產業走出這個一些可以獨立在有新的這個立基點"},{"start":6964.571,"end":6990.785,"text":"所以我們政府是最關鍵目前要準備的課題那尤其是在2024年的時候我們經濟部有提出境外觀內的觀念在2024年的年底的時候在捷克就成立了台灣的貿易投資中心的正式的接牌這個境外觀內現在就是有四個國家了對不對境外觀內 現在有對 境外的這個服務生平那最近 這今年有沒有在要在其他國家要提出"},{"start":6991.865,"end":7009.054,"text":"這個台灣貿易中心投資的貿易中心美國應該會增加因為美國這麼大就是我們廠商去那邊有投資我們要就近服務那個聚落慢慢形成了我們就會在那邊成立一個服務中心來服務我們的台商所以除了美國還有哪裡"},{"start":7010.808,"end":7022.841,"text":"原來就是波蘭嘛然後還有捷克嘛捷克第一個就成立啦捷克也會再增加嗎沒有就是捷克一個嘛已經有四個啦我說會再增加就是美國一個嗎美國會再增加其他的地方呢"},{"start":7028.041,"end":7035.468,"text":"目前是目前是美國會再增加一個就這樣子目前而已我們希望能夠多一點海外的投資服務的中心給他們一站式的服務輔導他們在國際上的競爭能夠有利基點那尤其是這個境外關內在"},{"start":7047.119,"end":7069.21,"text":"之前郭志輝部長的時候他就提到了而且他有提到說就是菲律賓我們要投資到產業園區那這個事情的話在當年的時候就已經很多的準備工作都到了最後的評估那今年二月的時候我們經濟部還有說會繼續推動但據我的瞭解部內的人來說可能暫緩了請問是什麼原因"},{"start":7071.631,"end":7081.846,"text":"沒有現在是我們上次主要是工種還蠻有興趣的那我們就是跟工種有去了一趟菲律賓來考察那在菲律賓會繼續推動嗎會"},{"start":7084.883,"end":7101.264,"text":"會 這個也有可能會跟美國那為什麼部內的人說暫緩了不推動了我們跟美國也會共同的來合作那你們內部人不動作也不做了那你部長在這邊說要做那是不是內部要先檢討一下多元市場的開拓我們都可以了解所以部長去了解你們內部人告訴我已經暫緩不做了"},{"start":7102.608,"end":7131.214,"text":"你要去了解喔好不然你這邊一頭熱在做你內部人都停擺不住對我來了解一下應該還是會持續因為最重要是這個境內這個我們的那個境外官內的工作可能這個這個名字是不是叫境內官外怕誤解但是好都是會是用境境外官內啦到了您的廣播長要換一個名字我們也不介意啦反正他的實質作為就是我們在海外共同的要換名字而已啦是不是"},{"start":7132.441,"end":7143.985,"text":"有這麼重要一定要換名字嗎不是就是海外開拓這個產業園區這個部分是一定會去做的是繼續做名稱換過而已啦對您的意思到你就要換一下名稱啦好"},{"start":7146.553,"end":7168.164,"text":"重要 企業物要去繼續的推展在4月20號的時候美國他用呂宋島他們就要成立一個產業園區你知道嗎我知道他4月20號有公布所以我們希望我們趕快的我們要繼續推動因為我們希望說這個在菲律賓設立這個產業園區的話可以讓我們強化跟美國跟東協國家的經濟連結這是很重要的是不是很關鍵的所以要繼續推動"},{"start":7176.328,"end":7180.719,"text":"好不好那接下來就是我們要提到的因為"},{"start":7182.099,"end":7207.024,"text":"中國大陸要報復美國的這個高關稅的所以宣布12月這個稀土要管制出口後來說要延一年的時間要延長一年的時間那延長一年時間但是我們知道這個稀土是我們無人間很重要的這個材料而且也是我們在軍事跟我們民生領域上運用非常多的所以這稀土很重要我們應該要有一個機制就像儲備的機制"},{"start":7211.625,"end":7230.636,"text":"讓我們的稀土能夠不要斷炊不要沒有這個稀土那我們溫能機的整個工業會受到很大很大的影響是不是是 所以我們現在已經請供應院因為它這個公斤級的這個產線大概已經有試煉過已經成功 對那我們現在要把它這個產能可以擴大擴大 好"},{"start":7232.737,"end":7252.855,"text":"所以說目前我們每年需要的稀土量是1500公斤嘛工研院研究說現在他用稀土回收的方式稀土回收是一部分一部分而已對一部分其他還是要用原礦進來是所以因為這個稀土需要高純度的提煉出來這個稀土所以這個"},{"start":7253.496,"end":7276.449,"text":"如果技術方面的話還要請工研院盡量的科技上可以再提升一點但是在去年10月的時候部長你這邊有表示說2030年之前可以讓我們稀土的自給率可以達到30%在今年的2月喔你又提說在2029年這個國內的稀土自給率可以達到50%部長請問一下"},{"start":7280.571,"end":7302.889,"text":"經過三四個月你就可以從30%提升到50%那你說這不是工研院的技術提升那是什麼原因這個就是我們就是把目標提高了因為看起來這個做得到嗎 要得到嗎因為工研院給我們承諾說可以工研院承諾了那工研院請出來一下是技術提升了嗎沒有 它主要是產能的擴大產能 它產能在哪裡來呢"},{"start":7308.897,"end":7330.299,"text":"產能不是不是你只要有原料進來因為我們這個原料工廠建置完成我們大部分的九成的稀土都在大陸進來對不對那現在未來我們會從美國是不是礦源的部分可以多元從美國加拿大澳洲未來是在美國對不對美國有澳洲也有可能加拿大也有多元的國家會進來"},{"start":7331.46,"end":7356.463,"text":"您知不知道稀土有很多種的稀土那無人機的稀土也不一樣喔美國雖然說有很多種的稀土的項目但是我們要的是無人機的那美國會供應嗎美國它自己的量夠嗎原來它是一個原礦嘛原礦我們做的是精煉的部分那這個精煉原礦進來工業院就可以提煉出來嗎"},{"start":7359.225,"end":7378.459,"text":"請問工研院一下 你們技術到了部長剛剛很有信心說你們的產能可以提高到50%我跟委員報告一下現在目前的目標我們現在目前的這個實驗線是年產5噸 5000公斤那現在是經濟部要support我們在2028年會完成年產量500噸稀土"},{"start":7381.361,"end":7404.349,"text":"那個市產線那會繼續開發那個製程技術到了2030年會完成年產量500噸的工廠那年產量500噸的稀土可以做成1500噸的磁鐵跟委員報告一下那現在主要是我們技術師的提供機會讓工業研發的那主要三個兩個主要元素都是為了磁鐵"},{"start":7405.249,"end":7424.084,"text":"其中一個是那個紐尼典 另外一個是Disposium主要是這兩個啦 這兩個是做磁鐵用的喔 謝謝好 所以部長所以我們應該趕快的把這個儲備的制度建立起來才能夠去應應這個訊息萬變的這個國際情勢 好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝余玲委員待會楊瓊英委員質詢完畢之後休息8分鐘"},{"start":7435.444,"end":7449.119,"text":"有請楊瓊英委員質詢謝謝主席 楊瓊英發言 我們再請部長請龔部長 謝謝"},{"start":7456.075,"end":7462.341,"text":"在我們討論AI新時代建設那國發會統籌了我們國科會還有最重要的經濟部 蘇發部一起來推動那我們也預計在2040年之前政府要投入1000億的資金來培植50萬的人才那麼同時要希望能夠創造的15兆的產值"},{"start":7482.578,"end":7495.981,"text":"所以在115年我們這一年度的預算裡頭的編列是280億包括了加上營業及非營業基金的特種基金的部分31億換句話說今年我們會投入311億比去年度的168億等於是增加了143億是84.8%"},{"start":7505.823,"end":7528.823,"text":"那換句話說就是政府也正式的進入到推動全面推動了AI建設的一個加強執行的一個階段那所以目前我們看到幾乎這個順利中心都數集中在南科國防中心還有北部但是如果要達成區域均衡的話呢我們知道在115年度的預算裡頭我們需要請教部長"},{"start":7532.066,"end":7553.76,"text":"中部地區是所有精密園區是所有的產業鏈最完整的最完整的所以這個有加成的一個作用所以本席首先要請教部長在115年度的預算裡頭你有分配給多少台中以及研究單位你們的規劃請報委員我想台中市以精密機械"},{"start":7561.678,"end":7582.343,"text":"是重症所以它對於不管是AI的相關的設備也好或零組件也好或是未來五大信貸產業所有的零組件很多都是中部地區的廠商它進入研發提供的那我們會強化這個部分包括矽光子也是一樣將來很多的這些零組件"},{"start":7583.163,"end":7609.618,"text":"都會是在台中地區來做你的西光子 量子電腦 智慧機器人無人載具 主權AI 算力建設智慧政府 資料治理 人才培育都必須是在中部地區而且中部地區最具備能力對 它很多都是需要機械的協助對 那請問115年度你預計你預算給中部地區怎麼做分配"},{"start":7610.058,"end":7626.438,"text":"我們倒不是說一定說已經先由上而下分好 而是說我們是申請這個不是分好嘛 那你總是有你的KPI嘛我們鼓勵他來申請全力支持在中部地區來發展一定啊 因為他一定好 那尤其在無人機的部分對"},{"start":7627.599,"end":7641.524,"text":"在無人機的部分這也是一帶聯繫的一個產業鏈所以無人機的部分呢本席也希望你們現在只有本席希望是全台一起來啊常常忘記了我們的中部網"},{"start":7642.495,"end":7657.652,"text":"你剛剛部長已經說了啊他是所有產業鏈的尤其是精密機器的重鎮啊不會那個報告委員我們現在有一個無人機的這個產業聯盟二百六十幾家他的龍頭企業就是漢翔"},{"start":7658.692,"end":7686.224,"text":"所以龍頭就是暗箱更要著重在我們整個中部的龍頭的一個帶動到全國甚至全世界啊所以每個縣市它都有它的角色比如說嘉義它主要是一個場域的部分但是聯盟的部分顯然這個龍頭廠商是在台中所以一定要往這個方向我們努力的來帶動讓這個AI機器人的一個驗證場域在台中整個蓬勃發展"},{"start":7687.148,"end":7702.679,"text":"你認同嗎可以可以所以不管在資源或者是研究單位因為這個不只是硬體設備的部分軟體的設備人力的一個培訓都非常的重要所以我敬請政府全力的支持在中部地區的一個發展會的會的會的好那接下來我們再繼續討論水很重要翡翠水庫經過了7年這個議題給給給部長因為這個"},{"start":7715.973,"end":7741.146,"text":"我們看到喔經過了一直在檢討7度的一個正式喊請台電也就是耗水率的問題因為每一年有5億嘛每一年有5億公噸的水那這個問題一直7度的韓文到底耗水率會不會給他們啦 耗水費啊這個5億噸裡面事實上如果以台電用的額外用的只有115萬"},{"start":7744.267,"end":7764.302,"text":"只有115萬所以這個絕大部分4億多這個不是台電因為位差哇 那你台電必須要跟人家地方政府要講清楚喔你媒體也這麼寫人家給你這個指證的也是如此為什麼七度到現在還講不清楚那這有問題喔部長把這個問題部長把這個問題去理清楚你一直有講人家一直不清楚方法要改"},{"start":7772.989,"end":7792.502,"text":"去把這個問題理清楚本席也不希望如此因為水很重要也不希望浪費掉我們也沒有浪費我們有一個共識點不要浪費那台電的董事長也在這邊你們去把它理清楚好不好不要讓社會大眾一直疑慮一直疑慮這不是我們民主政府應該"},{"start":7794.144,"end":7817.558,"text":"要去解決啊對不對不是讓民眾一直疑慮嗎要去解決好不好專案去討論完結果怎麼樣告訴這個資料給本席接下來本席還是要跟部長討論一個議題AI的運用那我們看到中小企業因為中部地區也是我們中小企業最蓬勃發展的當然署長很努力"},{"start":7818.178,"end":7834.299,"text":"也跟我們中小企業都一直在結盟在努力以大帶小以整個工會的一個立場去帶它裡面的會員所以我們陸續有一些這個成效出來了不管是AI人力的一個培訓我們幾乎一場次60個人是秒殺"},{"start":7836.621,"end":7842.284,"text":"那他們也希望繼續我也很感謝我們譬如說譚雅神工商協進會還有我們碳排的ESG的一個協會他們都願意努力這樣子去推動讓這個成效可以出來但是我們看到一個結果一個調查也就是你自己在去年的時候AI應用的調查你高達了93.1%的中小企業不準備招募AI的這個專業人才"},{"start":7864.014,"end":7879.399,"text":"而且他願意在兩年內招募者僅有多少2.9%那跟我們心所願的似乎是背道而馳那為什麼會產生如此因為你們現在給的數字很好看但是不是實際因為你們說到3月底輔導了2,058家導入AI中小企業是達到91%有4,800家的中小企業要聘這個但是"},{"start":7889.002,"end":7910.895,"text":"我們總共的中小企業有多少 167萬假如果以實際的數字那個是為乎其為啊對不對所以難怪你的調查結果是如此那麼現在似乎大家有一個印記也就是目前我們政府所推動的是只有在導入工具而不願真正的聘人那所以表示我們的結果還達不到我們的KPI我們的"},{"start":7919.739,"end":7941.984,"text":"這個意願跟需求量所以部長本身要請教喔你們一方面說是給我們的數據是2000多家而已所以比例當然很高但是我們要實際面看到政治的問題167萬家的中小企業其實他真正願意要導入的是個位數"},{"start":7943.204,"end":7956.23,"text":"是個位數包園他他要導入但是他不一定會要聘用專業人才他可能他的因為他業務如果比較簡單的話他只要有一個APP他會使用就好他不要多聘請一個專業的人來"},{"start":7958.791,"end":7963.352,"text":"這個就是本期一直在討論的我們對還好你最後講了一個分類我們不是只有碰到問題去搪塞問題啊而是你碰到問題面對問題去解決問題嘛是不是這樣子對不對你把它分好你去盤點好因為我們真正的除了剛開始"},{"start":7980.877,"end":7987.162,"text":"不是只有運用AI而且還要真正的用AI的人才啊這個才是我們要一直培訓才能夠跟世界來接軌嘛是不是你盤疊好給本席不要再去運用美化數字167萬家的中小企業我們"},{"start":7999.091,"end":8005.354,"text":"竟然用兩千零多少加來說你已經達到91%那跟事實的現況是不一樣的啊我們要去面對事實的現況好不好我們才有辦法跟世界來接軌嘛來最後一個議題部長你在4月20號你還好你坦白說出了因為本席一直在跟歷任的部長在討論你的再生能源都未達標"},{"start":8025.985,"end":8028.847,"text":"每一個部長都告訴我們真的沒有達標我們不希望的部長是每一次上台換人都跟我們說我的確沒達標這不是民眾要的你的問題你要去面對啊所以本期來跟你討論你是有時候你說了"},{"start":8045.441,"end":8058.208,"text":"那麼你在經濟委員會說最初的再生能源佔比20%今年11月份恐怕沒有辦法達成會再一次的來延遲那也特別說了它不是技術性的問題"},{"start":8059.557,"end":8064.239,"text":"如果技術不行當然沒轍技術可以我們沒有辦法達成那我們更有精進的空間本席再次強調本席不希望每一任的部長上來就只有告訴我們坦白我沒有辦法達標這不是我們要的啊報告委員如果以裝置容量的目標我們是盡量可以達成的以裝置容量來講部長我們實質討論題"},{"start":8085.208,"end":8093.258,"text":"那目前本席希望不要用意識形態來推政策地方的反彈 土地的爭議 環境的卡關 漁民的抗議 原民之傷電網不足 這一些現實的問題譬如說 光電你噴到農地"},{"start":8104.721,"end":8120.871,"text":"餘溫 居民的反對 你要怎麼去處理離岸風電 你碰到融資 國產化 成本過高的問題 你要怎麼去處理地熱 又卡在灘幹風險跟原民的意願 你要怎麼去處理你不是一個政府只要喊目標 喊壓力 壓地方 壓民間 壓產業啊"},{"start":8124.093,"end":8129.678,"text":"我們產業都在等啊你不是只有口號治國啊你現在目標都跳票你要把責任推給程序太慢社會共識不足就這樣子但是告訴我們的是技術沒問題我說裝置容量這個目標我們會盡量去推動這比較沒有問題財政人員的你20%你再度承認跳票那你接下來要怎麼辦"},{"start":8151.036,"end":8171.585,"text":"你有沒有完整的去盤點你接下來怎麼辦請告訴我們我剛剛跟委員報告就是裝置容量的部分我們設定出來的目標我們盡量會去達成那您剛才提到的有一些挑戰的部分我們會去一一克服剛剛提到的就是說你未來針對於足相也就是土地問題電網問題環評融資 人民之商地方的溝通你要怎麼去做你如果沒有調整你的角度"},{"start":8181.248,"end":8192.915,"text":"腳步制度你如果沒有調整還是一樣明年你還是告訴我們我還是沒有辦法達到我在這裡再次的強調我們不希望部長"},{"start":8194.867,"end":8216.553,"text":"換了一個部長上來都告訴我們我沒有辦法達標所以你的制度方法要怎麼去改我還是強調裝置容量的部分我們可以達成要怎麼去改請你去盤點你的方案方法告訴我們好不好這個非常的重要要不然你到2030年你光花你的光電31GW離岸風電的10.9GW地熱的200MW這些目標"},{"start":8225.475,"end":8253.633,"text":"我們申派又會跳票不希望跳票不會不會 裝置容量的部分去改變你的方案好不好去改變你的方法 達標成功好不好好的謝謝好 謝謝楊瓊議員不過還是提醒部長裝置容量不等於發電總量喔好 謝謝謝謝沒關係 我們休息8分鐘"},{"start":8257.193,"end":8279.458,"text":"不好意思在台上給你們拉過沒有嗎?沒有嗎?這個"},{"start":8282.996,"end":8285.238,"text":"中文字幕志愿者 李宗盛"},{"start":8303.223,"end":8307.987,"text":"這張照片是在2012年,當時是在北京的一間餐廳。這張照片在2012年,當時是在北京的一間餐廳。"},{"start":8343.552,"end":8343.732,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8362.732,"end":8363.273,"text":"謝謝大家。"},{"start":8381.409,"end":8383.29,"text":"哈哈哈哈哈哈"},{"start":8403.387,"end":8404.008,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":8419.117,"end":8419.137,"text":"好"},{"start":8446.766,"end":8448.471,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":8776.291,"end":8791.245,"text":"好 接下來有請鄭振淺委員質詢謝謝主席 我想請下一步 龔明慶工部長"},{"start":8798.398,"end":8816.186,"text":"部長好 因為我們現在在處理經濟部的預算的問題那我想說先關心一個部分就是我們之前一直很關心的沒宣配從去年關心到現在那我覺得比較有趣的一點是說今年的預算數就115年的預算數的時候整個經濟部"},{"start":8820.788,"end":8839.203,"text":"就是比114年的決算數多了47%整體來說多了47%可是經濟部部本部的部分增加134%這比例非常非常的高然後另外就是有關於中小級新創企業署增加135%"},{"start":8842.058,"end":8852.849,"text":"然後這個產業局增加142這部分都是超過百分之百的增加率的部分我特別挑出來那我當然是要問一下部長為什麼這幾個單位他的"},{"start":8857.403,"end":8871.149,"text":"增加的數量會這麼多那我同時提出幾個單位他們的預算數比114年的法定預算數減少包括了國貿署少了57%能源署少了64%"},{"start":8877.952,"end":8902.179,"text":"然後我們產業園區管理局少了76%通常經濟部的這樣子的一個大單位當中的時候那有些單位他們可以把這部分控制得很好而且還進一步的減少可是部本部的部分的時候還有相關單位的時候成長到百分之百以上這是什麼一回事可不可以請部長做個回應我是不是請會計師說明一下"},{"start":8903.603,"end":8927.445,"text":"謝謝委員關心我這邊補充說明一下我們經濟部的部分在沒宣業務增加主要包括像經濟部是增加了589萬那是科技專案計畫因為要用於推動推廣科技專案的研發成果擴散效益那另外還有就是我們要宣傳政府的重大產業政策然後還有一些掌握政策資訊所以部裡面有增加了大概589萬"},{"start":8930.027,"end":8950.552,"text":"讓你們說這部分的時候呢我可以理解就有些部分我們可能要增加可是增加到134%然後增加到135%增加到142%我覺得其實已經有一些不合理但我們在審預算的時候我們會特別提到我們會特別關注這個部分我們希望"},{"start":8951.472,"end":8969.868,"text":"該用則用不該用的部分我們一定要減下來就像我剛才有特別提到有很多單位他們也是都減少下來啊成員區管理局他們也都節省下來啊能源署也都節省下來就很好的一個狀態我們希望當用則用不當用的時候我們一毛錢都不能夠讓他隨便的亂用"},{"start":8972.05,"end":8998.199,"text":"包委員因為比如說這個中小企業儲罪因為它是中小微的一些發展所以它的宣傳力道尤其是我們中小微振興理解 這都沒有問題可是增加135%我覺得還是很多所以我們到時候會嚴格來把關那我接下來還想問一個部分就是我們看到經濟部的一個預算當中在營業基金的部分有一個地方"},{"start":8999.139,"end":9023.196,"text":"就是一億兩千七百萬金額不大可是它很特殊因為它直接新增國庫增資台電、中油、台糖、台水這個部分而且指定用途在買無人機的部分那我想我很疑惑因為油電、糖水這四大公司"},{"start":9024.016,"end":9050.038,"text":"都是千億級以上的一個規模啦那買無人機的部分我們覺得該買我覺得也很好即使說是經濟部有一個大方向覺得要發展台灣的無人機產業鏈我們覺得要支持本席也支持可是為什麼對於油電糖水四大公司千億級以上的公司可是增加的增資的部分是350萬"},{"start":9053.922,"end":9065.673,"text":"880萬 1000多萬 8000多萬金額來說都很少而且指定用途在買無人機如果油煉糖水四大公司他們要用無人機來增加他們的一個"},{"start":9068.893,"end":9087.664,"text":"運作上面的一些效率本席也支持可是為什麼是用增資的方式可不可以請部長做個說明因為它是一個設備它是投入一個設備投入設備就要用增資的方式給然後這麼少的金額所以油電糖水四個董事會他們都已經有開過這個董事"},{"start":9089.905,"end":9110.139,"text":"會通過要增加350萬增加880萬這樣子的一個規模增資案嗎如果說是因為虧損的狀態因為之前我們看到的狀態都是希望有幾百億上千億的一個增資案的情況因為現在就是因為我們經濟部就是負責整個無人機的統籌型計畫那這個統籌型計畫就有編列一個預算那給經濟部嘛那經濟部當然採買以後是給各油電藏水他來使用巡檢啊等等一些情況"},{"start":9119.825,"end":9141.449,"text":"但是不是免費補助他給他用等於是我們投資他增加了我理解這個狀態因為如果說是補助他們給他們一個東西這個也相對可以理解因為用增資這個狀態的時候因為整個程序因為最主要是油電糖水規模太大了"},{"start":9142.169,"end":9169.776,"text":"那你給他們這個無人機是經濟部採購之後給他們的狀態所以用增資的方式去解決這個程序上的問題是這樣子的一個情況嗎就是不是無常的OK 那本席想要特別關注的狀態是因為油電糖水他們現在大部分的公司本來也都有無人機本來就有在無人機他們如果是營業上面使用的時候他們用他們自己本身的經費我覺得也可以不一定是要經濟部買了之後"},{"start":9170.856,"end":9195.689,"text":"當聖誕老人再發給這油電糖水這四大公司針對這個部分我希望說我們基部能夠特別考量一下因為如果說是用這樣子的方式給的時候我個人覺得並沒有特別的一個妥適當然我們對於無人機產業是支持的我們也覺得台灣很有機會包攢無人機產業可是用這樣的方式來給就是油電糖水"},{"start":9196.109,"end":9202.304,"text":"他們這樣的一個增資的一個方式本心覺得不太需要那麼也不是那麼的適合好不好"},{"start":9203.832,"end":9230.152,"text":"因為我們也不是白給他啦就是說因為我們別列預算總是要有用途那用途的話等於是我們這筆錢是對於油電糖水的部分完全理解啦因為油電糖水這千億級的公司當中的時候他們自己用他們的一個營業的經費就足以去買這些無人機那我另外要特別問的狀態是因為它是非軍用的無人機那現在我們這些"},{"start":9231.823,"end":9261.123,"text":"油電糖水他們要採購的無人機有沒有特別要求去中化去中化的標準到哪些是百分之百的去中化零組件都不行還是一個什麼樣的狀態基本上是要要求是非紅的全部百分之百所有的零組件都不行沒有他有階段性的就是說這應該在2027年2011應該是我記得啦不是2027年或2028年之前因為有一些東西因為比如說"},{"start":9262.624,"end":9278.815,"text":"牽涉到磁鐵因為中國還是掌握大部分那那個部分因為不涉及到資訊安全的問題那那個部分可以在短時間裡面還是有針對這個部分的時候我之後再給本席一個很詳細的一個標準跟進程"},{"start":9279.435,"end":9299.085,"text":"因為我們經濟部這邊採購的部分它基本上是非軍用的部分那我們在想說我們的標準在哪裡然後在現階段當中的時候要如何逐步的去排除非紅供應鏈的問題因為目前有很多的部分感覺上是排除不了所以我們也很希望知道說經濟部做一個整個無煙機產業的一個主管單位的時候"},{"start":9301.946,"end":9330.168,"text":"那麼他是怎麼樣來看待這件事情最後一個部分我想問一個狀態因為零四就是4月4號的時候有一個大水就是大水的部分那水利署這邊有特別提到就是84%的地方在兩小時之內就退了那我想知道的狀態是那另外16%的地方有86個點16%的地方是哪些地方他沒有退那是什麼原因"},{"start":9331.609,"end":9357.712,"text":"報告委員確實有一些地點有一些淹了比較長時間尤其像苗栗像苗栗的一個後龍溪的支流沙河溪因為它那邊有些護岸跟橋樑的問題那這個也是縣政府跟我們會共同來努力改善OK喔那我特別想要關注一個狀態喔你到時候人家給我很詳細知道說這百分之六大概都在苗栗還是還有其他的地方新竹這邊有沒有相關的部分"},{"start":9358.413,"end":9384.46,"text":"那我另外想要特別追就是因為我們在我們有五項延續性的計劃啦那麼到114年7月份為止的時候我質詢力都不好可是它只到去年7月因為統計數字只有到7月那在五項計劃當中的時候包括離島地區供水改善計劃第三期那吳志達水地區供水改善計劃第五期那麼接下來第三項的中央管流域整體改善與調適計劃"},{"start":9385.86,"end":9407.265,"text":"這個部分就跟淹水這部分有很大的關係那它的那個執行率情況都不高那麼第四個水災的智慧防災計畫第二期這也跟我們這次淹水有相關比較大的地方那實現率也都不高那地下水保育管理及地層下限防治計畫第四期這部分這五個都是跨年度的一個"},{"start":9408.585,"end":9433.288,"text":"執行的狀態那我們看到去年的狀態似乎執行率都不好還是說到年底他已經很明顯的提高了報告委員這一些計畫主要的特性都是補助地方政府那我們的水利的工作他的一個特性都是一些工程到最後結算他才會一次性的給付所以依照過去經驗我們都可以達到95%以上沒有好那這樣很好喔"},{"start":9434.989,"end":9456.771,"text":"那我想說我另外特別關注一下就是有關於新竹市在113年度前瞻預算我看到這個數字當中的時候坦白說新竹市在整體來說質詢力已經是好的了可是因為它畢竟離百分之百還有一些距離所以本席也想特別知道新竹市的一個詳細的狀態"},{"start":9459.173,"end":9475.874,"text":"因為68.57的一個執行率的一個治理的一個百分比在全國來說已經算是前段班了可是我們好還希望更好所以針對新竹市這邊為什麼沒有辦法達成就是更好的一個數字在請最水準之後到本辦公室給"},{"start":9476.795,"end":9488.024,"text":"本席一個很詳細的一個狀態然後新竹市這邊還有哪些地方要特別去處理就是請這邊也給我一個本席詳細的內容我們會照辦沒問題謝謝委員好謝謝部長好謝謝鄭正前委員接下來我們請陳昌明委員質詢"},{"start":9511.994,"end":9514.381,"text":"首先有請我們經濟部港部長請港部長"},{"start":9521.753,"end":9543.872,"text":"陳偉豪部長好看看你總預算好像騙得不錯但是發覺了一個重點稅日減少稅是增加了非常多那我看看你這個稅日的話你說減了9.49億只要是中鋼、台眼、漢翔等公司的股息紅利腳庫減少在"},{"start":9545.915,"end":9551.026,"text":"我是說你一個經濟部還大一部你睡日收減淚9.11你收經費就有了嘛"},{"start":9553.912,"end":9581.871,"text":"中鋼因為大家也知道就是去年鋼鐵行情實在是不好那漢翔是因為他漢翔在金融方面會大賺錢啦沒有他被就是因為延誤先剔裂了這個我感覺你這樣又沒辦法剔裂所以這個稅率減少要恢復到以前正常的水準這第二個代表我們傳統產業不好"},{"start":9583.952,"end":9599.187,"text":"你應該要特別順以前最賺錢的現在面臨很大的困難賽好不好所以說不要減少那你今年的稅稅預算一共變了1480億那一般支出裡面451億"},{"start":9606.744,"end":9613.907,"text":"至於增加了112.73億,占所有我們算出的30.71那公共建設508.68億你們已經增淚了127.28億占所有預算的34.36那你科技發展510"},{"start":9633.047,"end":9659.193,"text":"17億佔所有比例將近35增累了大概114億我現在跟你來檢討一下在一般知識裡面第一個你的報告波比石油基金辦理自載家電的效率升級加護屋頂設備的太陽光電的加速計畫還有科技儲能的補治還有商業服務的節能設施"},{"start":9661.425,"end":9675.053,"text":"我要跟你檢討一個問題家電的補助你們是補助給冷氣電冰箱對不對那個是家戶也有企業的部分你自宅家電嘛我看你的預算已經變成要一二十年"},{"start":9679.271,"end":9699.787,"text":"每一年都在騙 每一年都要花這些錢那你的冷氣 你的冰箱裡面包括可能有電視你那幾十年來他有發電條大概應該可以要絕世了因為我講這句話家戶的部分今年是最後一年"},{"start":9701.968,"end":9715.755,"text":"我自己提醒啦 不能幾十年一直在補助啦兩區區的改善 冰箱的改善大概已經到了極致了啦該換的已經有換的差不多啦今年最後一年大家都買一些"},{"start":9717.136,"end":9741.207,"text":"再來啊你家戶屋頂我看到這世界很不公平台北六都的大樓林立啊你們現在都找非六都的話家戶型的用電我跟你講那個大樓用電的是他們最多的結果我看大樓都沒有在做太陽能如果大樓不做太陽能就把它搓碎來補治其他的地方"},{"start":9741.827,"end":9770.043,"text":"所以新的建築物只要超過一千平方公尺的部分他就要強制性的原該把都市那邊好好加強啊那麼多的大王在台電很高興啊啊這個家戶屋頂設施到底現在誰在管理你又看到SWIFT基金是中油在管理還是台電在管理還是能連署"},{"start":9772.145,"end":9778.411,"text":"我看到那個戰爭在打的時候,把電廠也打,氮化廠也打所以家庭那個太陽能力這個實在在戰爭的時候會發揮很大的功效再來"},{"start":9794.246,"end":9813.743,"text":"你裡面有一個深入的計畫,辦理國家藥物運送的準備計畫,這是要到底做什麼?這個是衛福部管的,怎麼會跑到你經濟部來啊?因為它是產業端,藥廠的部分,就是有關於那個學民藥的部分,我們還是要有一些準備"},{"start":9814.503,"end":9843.702,"text":"我是準備要戰爭萬一戰爭來了我看到日本都在準備戰爭來了你跟我講老實話是不是因為怕戰爭來的時候這藥物的運氣你在推動因為所有因為藥物事實上這個是重中之重啦就是說我們這個生活上的重中之重那是衛福部你今天不拿這樣來這真的不會做啦我不會反對啦我只是問你的目的在哪裡啦"},{"start":9844.703,"end":9857.423,"text":"就是說增強我們生產製造廠商這個誰管理的你們經濟部哪一個單位主辦應該是產業署吧產業署本來就要產業署的它是一個產業再來"},{"start":9859.386,"end":9870.174,"text":"一般支出的預算就這幾個我請教再來公共建設預算你們一共編了508億佔了34.36這個比例非常高增加了127億我這台要請教水利市長"},{"start":9881.485,"end":9909.67,"text":"你坐在那邊涼涼的我一直在追問我天花湖水庫你怎麼沒有編列預算你跟我苗栗答應下來啦報告委員這個天花湖水庫其實我們已經送到行政院他正在審議中好 請軍區部長沒有人敢做水庫只有苗栗敢做好不好行政院也非常支持這個方案因為計畫要先過才可以編列預算"},{"start":9911.05,"end":9938.398,"text":"我相信我們部長你從國會會到現在你很會做計畫我相信沒有問題的我了解剛剛談到苗栗的急降雨裡面霍農的地區我也沒有想到淹那麼嚴重這次很特別我告訴你我在後面有那個在排到海的地方啊有一條水溝一直沒有辦法解決沒有人要認那一條把它放大整個大概它排水量會出去"},{"start":9939.279,"end":9945.26,"text":"那我想到這些問題你們應該在海邊那個水位要做煮紅薯"},{"start":9946.792,"end":9969.992,"text":"苗栗的竹籃為什麼沒有醃得很厲害?因為我煮起了一個珠黃色喔!這次大家就感冒耳淚了真的講所以那個不要不要想著說怎樣你在那邊海邊的土地非常的便宜去把它吃去把它買做大的珠黃子大水一來沖到那邊就把它留在那邊就會消化的很快"},{"start":9971.614,"end":9984.671,"text":"這是我的經驗我喉嚨的頭暈的地區當然我曉得橋樑太低很多木頭這樣塞置那些塞置是造成這樣的影響那我為什麼會談"},{"start":9986.092,"end":10009.369,"text":"你們的新竹海水淡化還有台南的海水淡化他們的海水跟海水相同海水都幾百億,幾百億下去那不是長久之道我當時很多人跟我講這個是虧本累累的但是你一直來拜託說那是乾旱的期間其實你都用自容詞"},{"start":10011.328,"end":10016.645,"text":"一定可以解决这些问题这我不能开急开得太不敷成本啊"},{"start":10017.56,"end":10044.401,"text":"所以你把效益算給我看你們到底要只用賺錢還是準備虧錢在等還是當初為了做這種有人請你們特別設計這種我現在就懷疑那你看這是伊朗跟以色列的戰爭淡水場是伊朗打以色列的第一個目標啊我們都要隨時準備未來的應用變化發展啊"},{"start":10045.219,"end":10068.287,"text":"報告委員 是不是這樣有關於那個治水下游做自動死的部分我找我今天再來看看委員這邊指導方向我們會把那裡帶進來我跟你講 講真的沒水沒水大水來沒人幫忙你們蓋了那麼多其實那個非常重要海邊的土地又培養於桃園休息園的蓋邊我們會去找委員這邊再來了解"},{"start":10069.554,"end":10085.037,"text":"那我再來談好請回座你的公共建設裡面有設立一個全國循環專期試點及新材料循環產業延期一共60億這個準備打算做什麼"},{"start":10085.478,"end":10113.339,"text":"這就是大臨埔遷村大臨埔遷村高雄的那個大臨埔要遷村大臨埔我以為你又有心了這個是大臨埔遷村要把那個地方改為這樣南部人有福氣的我們北部尤其苗栗都沒有人照顧我才會問這個問題我告訴你比較實問一點好不好還要講地方暢食今年編的七千五百萬"},{"start":10118.102,"end":10130.769,"text":"那7500萬綠缺的地方創生共好的是要做什麼這個是配合配合台灣的配合商圈的不是國發會他有一個這個地方創生的一個計畫那我們配合他有針對你剛才講這個"},{"start":10133.791,"end":10148.744,"text":"這個我曉得如果是配合的可以啦如果真的說地方創生太少了啦我是為老實的講你國發會地方創生是只要你們的任務再來科技發展的預算請回座那個孫長你科技發展變成157億一共增加114億比例將近"},{"start":10160.956,"end":10188.964,"text":"算所有預算的35%我不反對而且我是全力的支持因為這個世界很競爭高科技很競爭但是一定要選對未來的項目要有關鍵性的產力我們才全力的去發展部長那現在我剛才要問請教的是依據產業技術發展需要及仇日前瞻技術應用這個真的很重要"},{"start":10190.066,"end":10212.309,"text":"我那天看了一個新聞上一次日本來偷我們台積電的數量它叫做東京威力科創公司這個是日本的台積電現在日本政府要做二奈米已經要投資100億美金給這家公司"},{"start":10213.994,"end":10227.771,"text":"你們都不敢發聲他敢做二萊米一定有拿到我們的關鍵性的機制國家對日本自我投資100億美金發展二萊米而且準備很快就要量產"},{"start":10229.546,"end":10243.759,"text":"我以前一直跟你們講 不會啦我們台積電就問了啦他那個機是沒有辦法成巴委員他那個是reputation是他們日本本身的技術啦過去應該是從IPM過來的技術"},{"start":10246.461,"end":10266.194,"text":"世界的眾生啊你不要講他說不然他怎麼要來這邊你們不要替他某事啊就是一群人你們卡著弄起來我跟你講這一下子投資100億但是他是我們的競爭對手沒有錯好不好我是覺得你們保護台灣不是這樣保護愛台灣不是這樣愛台灣"},{"start":10269.756,"end":10280.401,"text":"人家的技術盡量就不要吃雞只有我們台灣一直在做焦慮做焦慮可以技術要完全掌握在首領是的 是的 是的 好不好是 再來"},{"start":10281.913,"end":10300.288,"text":"這個我看不懂你在中小及新創企業的科技裡面增略了1.25億只要是去大南方智慧雨林產業推動辦公室我看不懂可能學運太差什麼叫做智慧雨林"},{"start":10301.389,"end":10322.259,"text":"你問我什麼叫做智慧雨林還要大南方的智慧雨林你給我說清楚報告委員因為相較於其他地區在南部的一些縣市中小企業相關的這些發展的能力競爭力會比較相當薄弱一點所以我們是希望藉由提升南部地區的中小企業當作一個起頭南部的中小企業比較困難"},{"start":10327.862,"end":10354.249,"text":"那我們桃園新澤 桃園不講我們的新竹苗栗 台中不講彰化 南投我們也是地方的中小企業也比較困難 捐贏還比南部還困難你們現在整個都到南部去了你要不要跟我中南部 中部還是北部中間設一個你這名字寫得很好聽 智慧已臨"},{"start":10355.049,"end":10357.174,"text":"我不知道乙甘林沒有什麼本性為什麼叫做智慧乙林"},{"start":10360.649,"end":10385.709,"text":"智慧雨林的意思是希望我們現在要強調中小企業的數位轉型也希望盡量不管在富裕在智能生產要遮瑕罵還有幾個不會遛都的你們要多多照顧啦他們台南高雄都是遛都內好不好中小為這個多元振興方案大家這個100億裡面事實上是全台灣是一起做的啦工業技術"},{"start":10388.058,"end":10399.931,"text":"升級福島還有科技裝難還有中小企業這個我們都會全力支持但是地方發展要給它平衡一下然後一下子就好我一般用的補治款裡面"},{"start":10401.38,"end":10416.596,"text":"我一直強調的一點無知來水地區大概我當議法委員的期間我非常注重這一塊但是我今年看到你們編的無知來水地區供水改善的計畫第五期才4.53億"},{"start":10418.638,"end":10442.424,"text":"啊 尖尖之水 那不會救的事啦自來水很重要啦我那時都叫你們要編個五十億才能真正的解決問題啊它分成兩個部分 一個是台水公司它是沿管的部分那補助這個無自來水的地區啊比如說它可能是簡易自來水啦 或是什麼補助地方政府"},{"start":10444.055,"end":10467.907,"text":"來實施的這些部分我還有很多地方想回答一下今年是21.2億啦你剛才看到4.53億那個是我們補助這個地方政府的一個潔滌自來水跟很多的...這個是補助給地方政府的?對...那我們也...我們治理21.2億喔...這樣我勉強可以接受啦好好處理這一塊啦部長"},{"start":10472.929,"end":10498.689,"text":"這個是得民心的一塊啦現在對於自來水非常相似是是是好謝謝阿市長我這次淹水苗栗的要好好解決想一些新的辦法你在中間把它結一段製紡紙哪邊弄一個製紡紙出來那水就不容易淹了啦想法要改變要創新謝謝謝謝陳昌明委員我們接下來請蔡易瑜委員"},{"start":10514.989,"end":10527.826,"text":"謝謝召委召委都要成為無限暢談希望我有可以這樣的待遇假戰來這個有請經濟部部長請工部長"},{"start":10535.715,"end":10551.736,"text":"蔡委員好部長好部長那昨天大概大家有看到了前天就是這個赫姆茲海峽那已經台灣有一艘台灣級的運送200萬桶的原油那即將要抵達麥寮港"},{"start":10553.078,"end":10569.962,"text":"那我想要請教部長就是說那這樣這個原油抵達麥寮港後可以緩解包括現在在工程界說濾清的不足或者是一些塑膠的這些包裝的材質不夠的這個困境嗎那部長你判斷呢是 包委員那個"},{"start":10580.458,"end":10594.817,"text":"包委員那個中央公司董事長有講就是說我們大概原油一天的使用量大概是15萬噸所以15萬桶所以這個200萬桶的話大概可以支撐半個多月"},{"start":10595.758,"end":10617.213,"text":"那四月份的時候事實上中國公司的原油到港大概有三艘那台塑化它是有一艘所以基本上這個供應量應該是所以有三艘啦有持續就是其他的就是除了這一艘之外還有其他其他艘會持續的進來那我想要就是了解就是說因為現在"},{"start":10618.496,"end":10640.55,"text":"我聽到了很多真的就是在做公共工程的都在反應因為釐清的問題造成他現在的施工必須要暫緩釐清我們重新盤點大概可以供應到六月份六月底那我們現在也請重要公司直接對外來做採購"},{"start":10641.601,"end":10654.506,"text":"那台塑化的部分他們因為有進來的這個原油他也可以有一些也可以煉製剩下這個瀝青出來對好沒關係所以不得這個衍生問題出來第一類就是說對這一些這一些承包商"},{"start":10658.187,"end":10682.143,"text":"他們可能會有說因為疫情的問題他們的工期是需要檢討工期所以委員假如說有比較明確的個案給我們來做一些媒合像其他的地區它也有比較急迫性那讓我們了解我們來做一些媒合的動作好 那我是在請這個台電的董事長"},{"start":10689.847,"end":10710.664,"text":"部長跟董事長我還是要問一下因為丹納斯的到現在已經經過了超過8個月的時間那這個丹納斯的條例後那我們當時是針對很多重要的一些一些路就是說比較屬於"},{"start":10712.025,"end":10724.954,"text":"它的地基會比較強的就是包括台17台19線的一個電纜地下化那我想請教董事長那整個這些電纜地下化這個在特別預算執行那現在推動的狀況如何"},{"start":10726.993,"end":10750.831,"text":"報告委員第一件事情嘉義縣目前我們同樣回報是都已經發包了這是第一點第二點是計執行率現在來看就是它是名列前茅的主要就是因為我們要取得路證等等還要做一些交違只要是順利我們速度就會快土方這個地方也能夠做一定程度的解決所以嘉義縣在整個速度來看是排在比較前面進度還不錯"},{"start":10751.731,"end":10771.182,"text":"所以該一關的整個進度都會有啦因為這特別條例他都頂兩年所以我這個進度我是一個我們希望執行速度能夠盡量執行技術可以越快越好啦好那就這個還是要持續來希望可以加速那第二個就是說這個在中普這邊啦中普這邊那"},{"start":10775.987,"end":10800.384,"text":"中友有一個探勘的事業部這個可能要請中友了有一個探勘事業部那這個探勘事業部在11月11號事實上有針對中埔這個竹頭旗段400之一地號高溫地下水層的一個評估報告那這個評估報告他主要是認定中埔在這個路段在這個地段他"},{"start":10801.414,"end":10820.1,"text":"如果往下挖掘的話只要挖掘到420到730米的左右他們可以井底的底層溫度可以到43度那如果你挖到了分水溪雲水溪層的下段也就是100米至1000米至1200米以這個這一段的話底層溫度可以到61度你如果挖到這個叫做鳥嘴層的上段"},{"start":10828.843,"end":10849.239,"text":"它的溫度可以到1200度你挖到了1200公尺到1400公尺也底層溫度可以到70度所以基本上這一個挖井它有地熱的一個條件那我想請教的話就是經濟部跟中油你們針對這樣有發展有所謂的一個地熱的一個條件的話那"},{"start":10852.561,"end":10855.124,"text":"你們有辦法來針對這些計畫來實施後續的專探那後續的一些投資計畫嗎"},{"start":10866.059,"end":10888.847,"text":"報告委員,有關嘉峪中浦溫泉這個探井的部分應該不是中油公司去專探的,應該是民間業者不過他這些研究報告的話,大概有請我們公司一起來共同探討一般我們判斷的基準大概就是這個地熱的溫度呢到達150度C,應該就具備了可以"},{"start":10889.467,"end":10911.208,"text":"開發的一個評估啦所以以這樣的一個地區的話如果是這樣研究報告是可以做這樣的一個後續的探討的話我想我們作業公司跟業者之間可以做進一步的交流對因為這個業者主要他是針對溫泉啦所以溫泉他大概以這個他他去做篆攤他就只研究到1400米嘛"},{"start":10912.93,"end":10930.647,"text":"那你地熱當然就要再往下啦但是再往下的這個評估大概民間就沒有辦法了就只能靠中油你們是最專業的嘛而且你們最近在宜蘭這邊我看到一些新聞說有取得非常大的成功就是說往下這個地熱已經到達了180度嘛"},{"start":10933.87,"end":10956.596,"text":"這是我看到的一些在宜蘭的一個狀況那如果同樣的在我們中埔有這樣的一個潛力的話那也許這就不是民間有辦法去再往下去撞灘去了解然後他們因為他們這是針對溫泉的一個研究那有溫泉如果再往下有地熱的話那這裡的條件就會更好這應該是沒有錯吧"},{"start":10958.475,"end":10984.486,"text":"因為我們現在有補助啦如果民間業者他要打比較深的這個叫深層低熱的話事實上是政府有補助的補助的比例大概是多少我們有一個計算的公司然後最高每一家我記得好像是1億元啦就是但是要看他的那個打的深度所以還是要民間發動然後你們補助沒有辦法直接就是由中油這邊來啟動這樣的一個"},{"start":10987.007,"end":11008.053,"text":"中友利用中友公司因為他現在主要是在比較北部那個地方在宜蘭地區嘛對那如果宜蘭地區那邊告一段落的話也可以到中府這邊來那應該是可以可以先嘗試去至少先去評估看看嘛就是說來那裡的環境看而且事實上我們嘉義跟中友關係就很深啊你們整個"},{"start":11008.733,"end":11025.117,"text":"我們嘉義市這邊就有整個中友的那個資訊中心啊都是在都在嘉義啊所以如果你們中友可以在我們中埔這個地方那投入這樣的一些一些撰刊那我想我我這樣判斷起來依這一份報告這一份雖然還沒有到"},{"start":11027.978,"end":11042.785,"text":"打地熱的研究但是我覺得是很有潛力的這個應該是值得中友去去做這樣的一個未來的一個規劃是是我想我們可以去做共同的探討好謝謝董事長好那我再最後一個要請教這個部長"},{"start":11044.858,"end":11073.711,"text":"就是部長因為我最近也是看到這個一些新聞看起來齁這個在風電的這一塊很多產業齁很多外商基本上決定要退出台灣那從包括呃加德西外那法國政府100%持有的這個能源的法國電力齁這個再生能源公司叫做EDF齁也決定要退出退出那看起來就是說"},{"start":11074.451,"end":11080.753,"text":"台灣的風電似乎走進了一個瓶頸但是這件事讓我有一點納悶我們這個風電廠如果以前兩期的開發經過了小犬颱風經過了當納斯颱風"},{"start":11091.716,"end":11095.28,"text":"這都是非常強的而且丹納斯颱風甚至到了14級15級風那他們可以這樣依然都是我看起來是沒有一個這個風電的這個電塔有去倒掉嘛"},{"start":11110.435,"end":11136.951,"text":"所以看起來就是說水價基礎的技術也夠成熟那整個發電的效率在冬季的時候也可以達到非常好的發電效率那怎麼會變得說現在外商覺得台灣的這個投資環境已經包含不會因為第一期 您剛才提到第一期第二期大家都要完成了那現在就是有退出的比較有問題就是3.1 3.2某些廠商那"},{"start":11139.765,"end":11161.487,"text":"說老實話這個應該是跟當初的這個選商機制是有一些關係啊我們現在3.3就會回到另外的選商機制那現在表達願意參與的這個廠商家屬也非常多包括國外的有幾位這個都來拜會包括我們駐台的一些代表"},{"start":11162.328,"end":11180.907,"text":"他們也表達很大的興趣3.3的部分所以保定你有信心就是3.3按推動的話因為這個風電我想我們整個政策是延續的而且縱使現在有在做核電重啟的評估但是它跟風電它跟這個綠電的產業政策這個"},{"start":11184.07,"end":11202.981,"text":"這個並不違背啊 並不是說有蘋固這邊風電這邊就要把整個把它停掉我們很快3.3萬以後很快的3.4萬就會推出來還是會出出來 所以政府在綠電的推動我想基本上會持續嘛 而且我再說著台積電他現在需要RE版"},{"start":11204.061,"end":11224.287,"text":"它在R100它需要綠電R100的要求核電沒有在R100裡面核電沒有所以現在幾乎台灣的豐電看起來台積電就是買了五半以上吧所以它有這樣高度的需求那台灣的綠電的一個發展這事情不能我知道"},{"start":11224.827,"end":11243.786,"text":"在野黨好像對綠電是有很大的一些錯誤的誤解那甚至是批判造成很多政策在推動上是沒順利這個是感受得到但是站在經濟部的角度你們對於綠電的推動應該要持續的力道繼續往前推吧是沒有錯我們還會加強"},{"start":11245.707,"end":11265.711,"text":"好 那就未來就是希望部長這部分也許再跟這一些業者大家吹音 大家這樣開槓一下然後了解一下 到底他們現在遇到的困境是什麼我想整個已經邁向成熟的政策 不可以這樣走回去不會不會不會好 謝謝好 謝謝蔡議員諮詢好 接下來我們請張家俊委員諮詢"},{"start":11280.486,"end":11283.208,"text":"謝謝主席 我想請龔部長請龔部長張文英好部長好 現在已經是四月中下旬了那再過兩週就是五月了部長您知道我為什麼要特別提這個時間嗎"},{"start":11301.345,"end":11314.234,"text":"五月迅起來是吧還是報稅季又快來了那每年的五月是我國綜合所得稅跟盈利事業所得稅申報的時間那對於民眾還有中小企業來說這個"},{"start":11317.096,"end":11331.323,"text":"繳稅本來就是一個比較沉重的支出那今年的情況更是嚴峻一方面這個美國關稅的這個政策搖擺不定那當然了國內出口產業大家都人心惶惶那另外一方面呢"},{"start":11332.484,"end":11349.6,"text":"這個美伊的局勢導致國際油價物價都同步飆漲那所以呢這等於是說在這個時程報稅會對於產業就是造成一個很沉重的負擔那面對這樣的情況不曉得部長有沒有掌握呢"},{"start":11351.768,"end":11368.133,"text":"去年是好像財政部有延一個月今年還沒有這樣講因為整個產業都是在你的這個領導之下所以呢去年在疫情過去在疫情期間其實政府都有主動延期這個報稅的期限讓產業有緩衝然後甚至調整資金的時間"},{"start":11373.175,"end":11395.961,"text":"那包括去年面對美國關稅的衝擊政府也採取了相對應比較彈性的措施那我想要請問部長今年的國際情勢比去年看起來還要嚴峻然後是不是我們產業面臨的困難呢這麼多是不是有可能經濟部可以跟這個財政部溝通一下能夠有一個彈性的作為呢"},{"start":11397.002,"end":11407.534,"text":"我們來轉達委員的提案就是說因為委員代表民意嘛至少是有民意代表那我們來轉達說有民意代表這樣的訴求那請財政部來考量我相信部長的這個建議"},{"start":11412.901,"end":11428.974,"text":"財政部也一定會非常重視因為非常多的中小企業我相信也是面臨窘境所以本席建議就是可以比照去年跟疫情期間的彈性模式將今年的報稅截止期限由5月31號延後至6月30日"},{"start":11432.577,"end":11447.673,"text":"那一個月的緩衝期對於中小企業的資金調度來說我想是一個救命的及時雨那特別拜託部長盡快的可以跟財政部來溝通然後苦民所苦我們來轉告表達 轉達"},{"start":11449.635,"end":11471.613,"text":"謝謝部長那再來我想跟部長討論的是經濟部的單位預算那本席注意到經濟部的單位預算在這個營業基金之下編列了1億1880萬元計畫透過用國庫增資的方式撥款給所屬的台塘、中油、台電、台水四家國營企業來採購無人機"},{"start":11475.195,"end":11497.171,"text":"那我想請問部長這一筆經費編載經濟部單位預算的必要性是什麼因為經濟部他是整個無人機產業的這個統籌計畫的主政機關所以就是我們編載我們部會之下那這幾個國營事業規模都不小耶甚至非常大難道不能用自己的經費購買嗎"},{"start":11499.596,"end":11502.058,"text":"為什麼要編在你這裡呢而且無人機的用途都是屬於國營事業裡面的正常營運範疇之內為什麼那個預算要編在經濟部呢"},{"start":11516.975,"end":11532.402,"text":"因為我們就是說邊站我們它有一些共同的一些規格上的一些設備就是部長所說的你整個預算書裡面也沒有寫他買了要做什麼你就只有說統籌型計畫採購無人機就這樣子主要是在巡檢"},{"start":11538.306,"end":11544.49,"text":"使用啊 但是都沒有說明啊都沒有說明啊 你內部都沒有說明事實上這幾家國營事業過去都有自己購買無人機的紀錄像潭水113年就買了7架那台電截至114年8月已經買了214架那本席是絕對支持喔"},{"start":11558.078,"end":11568.83,"text":"使用無人機來減輕第一線人員的負擔跟讓他們的工作更安全更便利這個本席都非常支持但既然這本來就是國營事業的經營成本為什麼要由經濟部來買單因為報告委員就是說經濟部主要目的是推動產業"},{"start":11577.139,"end":11581.643,"text":"所以你要推動的是什麼產業無人機產業所以你要買這些無人機給國營事業用這樣子來幫助無人機產業嗎因為這個無人機產業推動它我們會設計它既定的規格然後引進事業相關的你講到規格我就想要知道說這個預算書真的編得很粗糙"},{"start":11600.538,"end":11604.74,"text":"我翻遍預算書完全看不出來第一要買幾架第二要什麼規格以後具體要做什麼然後整個說明竟然只有寫依據無人機載具產業發展統籌型計畫然後辦理相關的採購具體的採購明細資質未提部長無人機的用途不一樣規格跟價格落差是很大的便宜的一萬多塊就有了然後貴的到幾十萬都有編了一億多的預算"},{"start":11630.27,"end":11650.821,"text":"您打算怎麼買所以我們事實上是有一個完整的計畫然後都沒有提供給我們對我們可以那個費用在那個完整的提供給我們我是建議部長說其實我們是很看重經濟部的預算我們也希望盡速的把它審查完成但是不能因為我們願意盡速你們就"},{"start":11652.122,"end":11656.108,"text":"隨便然後就很粗糙的去處理因為我舉例來說一億多欸如果買一台一萬的你可以買一萬多台一台五十萬的你只能買兩百台那到底是要買幾台要買什麼規格"},{"start":11668.586,"end":11686.458,"text":"幾價的部分事實上都已經規劃出來了啦是啊 但上面都沒有寫啊就是完全沒有說明嘛所以我是希望說部長你們編預算的時候你們跟這個我們本會本委員會說明預算的時候也要必須要落實要仔細可以嗎"},{"start":11687.96,"end":11695.528,"text":"因為雖然我們中央政府致力發展無人機產業需要補充說明因為我們沒辦法空白授權給你們這種資訊不明白的預算我們經濟委員會如果空白授權給你們不是很妥當"},{"start":11707.862,"end":11719.194,"text":"那另外本席在翻閱我們經濟部115年度預算的這個單位預算當中發現編列的稅入只有67.98億那比去年這個稅入"},{"start":11725.479,"end":11747.105,"text":"82.11億元喔整整少了14.13億元喔大幅減少大概17.21%我想要問部長預估稅入大幅下降的主因是什麼關鍵數給我的資料我們是少了9億多欸少了9億多嗎你自己看你自己看82減67"},{"start":11753.879,"end":11776.32,"text":"這數學這麼簡單 你自己看我的螢幕82減67不就是14億嗎是 委員您問的這個數字是有關於部本部的稅務的部分那主要減少的就是我們的那個股息紅利的腳庫因為股息紅利像轉投資都是編在部本部是 這就是我想講的你這14.13億喔"},{"start":11779.271,"end":11788.44,"text":"裡面投資股息紅利減少就佔了13.58億主要是中鋼還有漢翔還有台岩還有螳螂還有台船還有可威環境所以這六家"},{"start":11801.829,"end":11821.223,"text":"基本上已經連續這個股息已經連續4年都下降了今年跟4年前比更是直接腰斬部長這造成國庫收入大減經濟部投資管理是出了什麼問題這個是拿人民的納稅錢去投資難道不是應該更謹慎嗎報告委員因為中鋼的部分我想過去幾年因為國際的鋼"},{"start":11827.988,"end":11844.084,"text":"鋼鐵市場事實上市況不好因為有比較中國因為大量的這個出口我沒有針對任何一個公司我沒有針對任何一個你們現在投資的公司我只是希望說我們經濟部要投資可能也有一些是"},{"start":11845.365,"end":11868.65,"text":"政策性的關係也有要輔導性的關係但是呢我還是希望說就好像國發基金他也會在可能這個目標達成之後他會重新盤點嘛那我也是希望經濟部也要做對內的這些投資的盤點不能夠說就任他每年每年不斷的虧損該盤點的時候該調整這個這個"},{"start":11874.171,"end":11878.434,"text":"投資的比例的時候 他還是賺錢啦只是繳額比較少啦比往年少啦那我沒有每一家都賺錢唐榮台船可威都已經連續虧損兩年了是不是 我有沒有認證"},{"start":11894.102,"end":11916.519,"text":"對啊因為台船他做了這個有些所以啊 我就跟部長講我沒有針對任何一家公司你沒有 我也不想說出來就是希望針對你們部本部的這個稅入然後這個投資效益你們可以做一個內部的盤點然後能夠對於你們的這個我們納稅人的這些繳的稅呢可以更審慎的對待好不好好 謝謝"},{"start":11927.025,"end":11954.127,"text":"好 謝謝曾大軍委員 接下來我們請賴世寶委員質詢謝謝主席 各位先進有請部長有請龔部長"},{"start":11962.728,"end":11971.601,"text":"賴委員早安賴副董事長我還是關心這個油源的問題現在這個打打彈彈彈彈彈他對於我們的油的供應到底"},{"start":11978.271,"end":12005.5,"text":"影響到哪裡就是原來講的說現在來了兩艘是不是來一艘還來兩艘現在這一個月總共來了四艘原油的部分原來不是說有四艘就那四艘嗎對就是按照這個進度就已經到了四艘到了你不是說五月才到現在提早到不是四月份就進來了四艘五月份呢五月份已經有安排了總共五月份應該是幾艘五月份會幾台會來也差不多四五台"},{"start":12006.9,"end":12008.182,"text":"價格呢?價格應該比較和緩現在原油價格應該是在90幾塊已經沒有再超過100塊了"},{"start":12020.795,"end":12046.209,"text":"現在可以不可以這樣講齁那個未來原油要低於一百塊的機率不夠了 可不可以還是說低於一百塊還是高於一百塊不夠了不叫低於高於一百塊不夠了因為現在人家開始跌落了嘛對 就要看那個中東戰事的局勢啊如果穩定下來應該是比較少的機會但是如果戰爭再起的話 那就"},{"start":12048.13,"end":12062.716,"text":"央行預估的全年他用85塊錢來算原油價格這是合理的如果這個戰事很快的如果解決結束以後的話你們會認為很快解決嗎"},{"start":12065.845,"end":12092.848,"text":"這個就要看起來不會喔我們看起來就長期化了喔這個東西坦坦打打打打坦坦就長期化這個樣子喔所以老實講85塊我都覺得低估了喔但是要超過100多多到哪裡當然也不知道啦沒有人知道滾動式的這個沒有人知道但是所以你那個游泳的來源就很重要了我再確定一遍是不是"},{"start":12093.408,"end":12118.664,"text":"未來極有可能就不要跟中東買油了直接全部集中跟美國買跟澳洲買是不是可能不是 包委員因為現在就是說現在只剩下中油跟台塑化各有一艘在波斯灣裡面其他的我們都用鴻海還有其他的這個出口別的國家你鴻海是跟中東買嘛對啊 因為那邊算是還安全"},{"start":12120.731,"end":12137.596,"text":"我們現在從美國來的中油的比重已經60%所以說事實上對油的掌握台灣是比較OK的所以我們都維持在140天左右我們要不要參與"},{"start":12139.178,"end":12158.104,"text":"美國的原有阿拉斯加的人員基礎設施四千多百億美金我們負擔三分之一要不要現在是有這樣規劃但是要實際看到他的什麼時候可以確定Business Plan什麼時候可以確定就是他的這個計畫書什麼時候可以確定因為我們要看到計畫書才確認計畫書還沒來計畫書什麼時候來可能"},{"start":12164.623,"end":12178.656,"text":"目前美方沒有把這項當成是優先的我們在看台灣的經濟荷蘭病其實很嚴重的半導體跟相關的電子產品出口佔60%傳統產業幾乎全部被擠壓了"},{"start":12183.22,"end":12211.138,"text":"儘管會還弄出一個叫普遇計畫就是怎麼樣表現不錯的傳統產業也讓他有機會讓投資人的青睞這個問題啊這個今天對經濟部來講其實是很重要的就是我們這個產業啊其實你看的都是AI即便中小企業AI概念股你看大盤漲18%但是中小企業的AI概念股漲200多%你就可以看得到都是要跟AI有關"},{"start":12211.798,"end":12225.305,"text":"跟黑黑無關的都靠偏贊這東西經濟部有沒有什麼辦法想想辦法有沒有報告委員所以我們現在為什麼有兩年的這個特別的任性預算幾乎大部分都是用在傳統產業跟中小企業上那個多少錢"},{"start":12228.947,"end":12245.827,"text":"兩年大概我們編了四百五十億左右四百六十億那包括開拓市場等等一些情況那除了這個之外我們一年度的這個對於中小微的這個政經多元發展方案事實上跨部會大概有一百億"},{"start":12246.528,"end":12273.447,"text":"也來支撐這個中小企業的協助這個也過了啦我們希望你執行的時候中小企業儘量的要偏心一點啦就是非AI的類這部分應該多補助一點最後一個小問題喔剛才委員有句話提到也說關心的因為現在我們要發展無人機啊這次的軍購特別條例還要編了整個要買20萬台的無人機那個是軍事的那是國防部編的我現在就問你"},{"start":12275.348,"end":12300.878,"text":"其實現在這次的美伊戰爭我們就看得到伊朗用了很多非常便宜的無人機大概不到台幣一百萬結果美金出動兩顆愛國者一顆一億兩億打一百萬這個才叫做不對稱戰爭啊這一部分老實講我們經濟不可以用很大的力我們以現在來講的話我們的無人機在全世界排名第幾"},{"start":12302.288,"end":12318.334,"text":"無人機現在如果以數量上來講因為我們剛起步兩年我們盤了非常後面對 我們剛起步兩年但是這兩年的變化非常非常之大那成長出口的成長意義是二三倍無人機第一名是量最大是不是是中國對中國大陸它佔的百分之七十"},{"start":12319.814,"end":12334.649,"text":"那現在我們政府又在推非紅供應鏈可是百分之七八十的關鍵民主圈都在中國大陸你們要如何的擺脫紅色供應鏈這是一個很大的問題啊因為你沒有這個東西的話"},{"start":12336.411,"end":12356.862,"text":"你跟他買最快 但是又不能跟他買 那這算什麼牌不僅我們國內要求 實際上全世界包括中東歐的國家 包括波蘭 他們也希望達成這個所謂的飛鴻供應鏈所以他們來找我們共同的合作 包括法國也是那我們除了 我們現在主要的關鍵領土就是向哪個國家買"},{"start":12359.432,"end":12378.69,"text":"主要是美國主要是美國法國也有美國自己的美孚企業好了我已經時間到了我就不要再拖了我就提醒一句好好的去輔導中小企業非AI類的中小企業我們會加強這個是我這次巡查的重點謝謝"},{"start":12382.961,"end":12399.335,"text":"好謝謝賴世保委員那我們中午不休息延長開會時間至議程處理完畢林俊憲林俊憲林俊憲委員邱志偉接下來我們請邱志偉委員質詢"},{"start":12416.175,"end":12445.477,"text":"好 謝謝主席 首先請經濟部鞏部長請鞏部長國貿署劉署長國貿署劉署長署長不在了是吧對 署長請下不是到12點嗎這個台灣加入CPTPP是我們的重要的政策那推動一定要有預算也要有策略請教一下經濟部特別是國貿署今年有沒有編列多少預算來推動台灣加入CPTPP"},{"start":12446.94,"end":12468.937,"text":"我想應該是編載國貿署你相關的預算應該是要編載國貿署你從預算書裡面能不能反映出來 你要推動沒有預算不行啊的確是有一部分是編載OTN的 是當然在經濟部的向下今年要推動台灣加入CPTPP OTN是編多少錢"},{"start":12471.55,"end":12497.749,"text":"我們要跟12個會員國去磋商去討論甚至希望說有會員國可以幫台灣提案成立工作小組你們預算我這一問就不知道我要怎麼去推動CPTPP那個向委員報告那今年我們推動在CPTPP的費用我們現在"},{"start":12502.842,"end":12509.366,"text":"其實都講不清楚預算多少我很難期待你們有好的表現今年已經凍資的部分大約是在450萬台幣"},{"start":12515.649,"end":12544.204,"text":"如果美金還差不多450萬台幣12個國家你要去跟他們磋商國貿局你要去跟這個主要的國家願意幫台灣提案這些國家加強這個磋商討論或者提出這個對策甚至高層會議我也建議部長你有必要去越南跑一趟或者去日本跑一趟因為主要的關鍵國你現在才用450萬450萬你能夠做多少事情是 我們也利用比較"},{"start":12545.629,"end":12566.721,"text":"多元的時間就是說可以盡量接觸也都會表達比如說我們現在就是說把這個議題分散到OTM分散到外交部跟國貿署跟經濟部沒有一個統整的戰力各部會各行其事當然不可能把計較展現出來而且預算又編的這個我覺得很納悶預算為什麼編如此之少"},{"start":12567.887,"end":12585.893,"text":"這個如果要推動是要有一個政務委員 再生大臣在日本是一個經濟再生大臣去強力推動做一個重要的國家政策資源 預算要到位 人員也要到位那我要問你說你現在跟12個我們成員國磋商討論目前的結果怎麼樣"},{"start":12587.609,"end":12603.651,"text":"巴爾委員我們現在都是用雙邊的或是多邊的預算那只要有機會碰面就會提到這件事情不是你要把它當一個正式專案去執行你如果是附帶的用專案這個在多邊協議的時候附帶提一下人家怎麼會重視呢"},{"start":12604.312,"end":12629.955,"text":"像我就為了CPTPP我跑了幾個國家我跑了七個國家而且是面對面的跟國會議員表達台灣要加入這個決心已經準備好了對 因為我們雙邊的這個對話通常CPTPP是一部分但是也會談其他的議題所以會一起談不會只談這件事情今年是關鍵年如果今年在年底越南當主辦國如果沒有辦法加入你後面就遙遙無期了"},{"start":12631.377,"end":12645.772,"text":"為什麼我急 就急到現在我覺得你要把它當一個正式 你要用部長的高度來整合你要整合OTN 你要整合外交部 你要整合各外管的經濟組同仁每個月回報最新進度 接下來結果怎麼樣"},{"start":12647.033,"end":12666.922,"text":"好 然後我們要怎麼樣達證要誰來提案讓台灣成立工作小組那其他的這個會員國都不要有特別的反對意見這樣子我們成立的工作小組才能水到渠成嘛要有人提案啊那你要策動哪些國家去提案這個你都有覆案耶好 我們來思考這個台灣還不是內閣制國家如果內閣制國家國務院可以見證閣員的話我可以當你們這個"},{"start":12676.514,"end":12680.397,"text":"問你三個產業在你新的這一年我們預算今年通過雖然晚了一點"},{"start":12699.753,"end":12718.603,"text":"好針對航空產業針對金屬扣減產業針對石化產業這些產業都集中在中南部你的施政重點跟你要達成的目標請針對這三項產業做一個說明就是扣建產業的部分的話現在他們在一些"},{"start":12719.808,"end":12743.593,"text":"AI方面的推動的話 現在是我們推動的一個重點希望能夠藉由這些AI推動 讓他們的一些想法這AI推動講了很久了 都有一些具體的成效你是不是可以把你今年預定要推動的成果跟目標是不是提供一些書面資料給我 好那航太呢那航太的部分的話就是有一些加入國際的一些認證的一些協助那這樣重點是在無人機嗎"},{"start":12745.322,"end":12756.871,"text":"無人機 對對啦 重點是在無人機嘛航太一定有一定的基礎現在新的領域是在無人機嘛所以你要怎麼協助航太產業裡面無人機能夠生根茁壯發展"},{"start":12758.564,"end":12782.122,"text":"跟國際接軌這個才是最重要的嘛那石化呢石化的話我們現在在雅文這邊有推動這個石化的一些公安也是可以透過一些AI的方式來提升它的一些另外一個就是高質化這個推動現在股市三萬八那現在石化相關產業它的這個他們股價大概是一萬點左右的股價這比一萬點股價還更低"},{"start":12786.559,"end":12815.033,"text":"對不對所以他必須面臨到產業發展的瓶頸跟挑戰我們要用政府的力量怎麼樣協助他們轉型當然面對中國的競爭也是很重要他們自己也要有轉型的意志但是我們要轉型的協助跟輔導你去看這傳統產業的股價跟這個AI半導體的股價完全是天差地遠所以我覺得針對這三項相對的重要對中產部比較重要產業我希望說"},{"start":12815.948,"end":12838.154,"text":"政府能夠拿出具體的政策 而具體的成果來協助這三個產業能夠有更好的競爭力好 接著請雲管局 雲管局楊局長部長 海外產業聚落的佈局你們憋力一意去執行 對不對"},{"start":12839.198,"end":12853.8,"text":"那我覺得你們現在這個計畫一億好像只是做一些資料收集沒有個具體成果你應該可以告訴我說這個海外產業機構是在哪一個國家哪一個城市已經有初步的雛形是集中在哪些產業"},{"start":12855.243,"end":12874.054,"text":"現在分成幾個部分我們除了在某些國家裡面有設置的這個服務跟貿易中心那另外也跟TIMA就是電電工會共同要開發這個園區那某些已經有一些合作的一些方案比如說第一個在波蘭已經有了"},{"start":12876.296,"end":12898.75,"text":"還有哪個國家 因為可行性貧困有三岸對 另外一個波蘭 一個哪裡另外在美國 美國可能有兩個地方那東南亞呢東南亞那時候本來是說菲律賓是不是有可能那現在也是在討論當中尤其是美國也宣布了他們跟菲律賓要有大概一千多公頃的一個所謂的一個特區"},{"start":12899.631,"end":12919.267,"text":"那我覺得三個還是不夠 兩個集中在美國 一個在歐洲那你甚至在亞洲國家應該有一個產業 臺灣符合日不落國對不對 經濟日不落國所以你這個產業佈局一定要是放在跟我們相對產業比較集中的區域比方說在越南或者是泰國"},{"start":12920.808,"end":12949.557,"text":"這產業聚落才有意義你不是從新開始從一張白紙開始你要在既有基礎上去建構一個台灣海外的這個產業聚落專區對 這個有分如果說因為這個海外聚落的話因為這個政府來講還是要居土居所以要看對方的政府跟我們如果是純民間的我們也會支持那純民間比如說TIMA他現在要去墨西哥那我們也會協助他"},{"start":12950.137,"end":12960.553,"text":"但是就民間發動了民間發動主打就是說波蘭一處然後美國兩處你們多尋找一些比較有競爭力的另外最後請水利署署長水利署署長這個"},{"start":12967.742,"end":12991.429,"text":"北高雄就是我的選區幾乎我們每天都在看這些工程我每一項都看過我講署長你也陪我看過好幾次所以這個每一項工程都是有它急迫性跟必要性而且我親自去看過你也在現場包括應急工程在15年度大概就9,160萬這些都是必要性而且必須馬上去處理的應急工程請部長署長能夠全力支持"},{"start":12991.969,"end":13019.559,"text":"另外就是說115到118年這個北高雄這個整體的改善計畫河川跟排水整體的改善計畫這幾個包括聯保溪包括土湖排水包括沿海區域這些經費都非常重要這個跟北高雄的這個城市韌性有關係因為北高雄不只是只有只有傳統產業我們更有未來高科技的AI跟半導體的聚落所以不能有天然災害發生"},{"start":13021.226,"end":13047.498,"text":"特別是這個強降雨或颱風來的時候不能淹水半島立場不能淹水所以這個部分的這個所謂這個典寶溪流域的自理計畫跟土庫排水跟沿海區的自理計畫這些經費我請部長跟署長重視加以支持我們會全力來辦理沒問題雖然金額不小大概50億左右但是這要花在刀口上是救產業救人民要提升生活品質"},{"start":13048.191,"end":13062.869,"text":"也謝謝委員多次現堪給我們指導非常謝謝也謝謝你每次我邀請你的會來是 應該的好 謝謝好 謝謝邱志偉委員謝謝部長接下來我們請葉元之委員質詢"},{"start":13076.663,"end":13077.445,"text":"主席 麻煩請部長 經濟部長 謝謝請工部長"},{"start":13087.333,"end":13108.351,"text":"我看到中國大陸說要給我們惠台十大措施嘛結果經濟部馬上就發文了那標題叫做台灣走自己的路無需回頭一步中國很強硬啊我是覺得都有市場開發啦已經一部有點反應過度了啦為什麼我這樣講第一個人家是說市場開放嘛"},{"start":13109.191,"end":13136.209,"text":"對台灣做生意的人來講中小企業或什麼他就多一個市場我多一個地方可以賣東西過去這個沒有說什麼回頭依附的問題你們現在經濟部或農委會農業部不是都一直在講說我們要開放多元市場嗎很好啊繼續去做啊但多一個市場怎麼又講說是依附這我覺得有一點因為他講說有條件之下怎麼樣怎麼樣但是有條件就"},{"start":13137.189,"end":13151.456,"text":"有條件是另外一件事情我要講就是說如果他願意開放市場然後我們評估之後覺得OK的那當然可以去啊但是馬上扣個帽子說因為他開放所以我們就是回去依附我覺得經濟部這樣講中小企業聽了也不高興啊"},{"start":13152.156,"end":13167.836,"text":"我們沒有要依附啊只是多一個市場機會啊那我看到政府每次都講說那個叫養套殺他把你養起來到時候要殺你不是啦這個做生意都有風險啊你們現在政府一直鼓勵企業到美國去投資沒有風險嗎"},{"start":13169.205,"end":13194.33,"text":"包委員就是說所以我們為什麼比較強調如果政府對政府不管有沒有脫過白手套總是有一個那政府就趕快對政府啊對我們是希望這樣政府就趕快對政府那政府不對政府然後民間的努力政府又翹著二郎腿旁邊說不要不要不要那政府就沒有功能了嘛單方面的承諾他可能隨時會改變也造成七五八這個布朗跟你請教因為"},{"start":13195.35,"end":13207.417,"text":"我看到商總啊他們帶領很多產業出來中小企業啊做糕餅的啊當然有的跟經營部可能比較有關係啦比如說觀光業觀光業跟我們不是無關的我知道我知道無關農家餅也無關啦但是糕餅啊中小企業其實他們是還蠻有趣的那"},{"start":13211.599,"end":13228.041,"text":"我認為經濟部應該做的角色是他們去你幫他評估風險你剛剛講可能的風險但是做生意一定都會有風險我剛剛講去美國也有風險台積電投資那麼多過去當初拜登講說要給他補助川普一上任就說考慮把補助取消"},{"start":13228.462,"end":13243.999,"text":"都是風險啦不能把風險講成養套殺啦所以這種東西盡量不要經濟的東西我覺得盡量不要講意識形態這個是我給經營部的提醒因為我看到經營部馬上就哇那個政治口號就出來了那"},{"start":13244.656,"end":13263.759,"text":"然後還有商總說他有接到壓力啊經濟部有給他商總壓力嗎我沒有跟他聯絡你沒有那經濟部其他的我們是有同仁去跟那個糕餅公會問他說就是說因為他就是說什麼有條件之下什麼開放什麼中小什麼市場"},{"start":13264.64,"end":13286.537,"text":"那個意思到底是什麼我們高屏公會跟我們回答是說他們要表達的是說因為過去我們出口到他們那邊的時候因為它的那個凱關的行政程序非常忙因為高屏它是有期限的如果那個期限太長的話就會壞掉他們希望說這個可不可以簡化那基本上這個跟所謂的今年的會談就沒有什麼關係嗎"},{"start":13287.838,"end":13305.337,"text":"那這樣講話也很好啊那如果是這樣的話對啊所以這個訴求我們同意啊我們也支持啊對嘛那這就很正面嘛不是我說高品工會的訴求就是簡化流程那個部分所以你們不是給他壓力你們是關心一下說現在什麼狀況然後他跟你說可以簡化你又說好那來幫忙"},{"start":13305.697,"end":13331.5,"text":"對 我們可以幫忙 我覺得這就不錯啊這就站在業者角度嘛 對就盡量 所以相總生氣了相總還嗆聲說他也有選票我覺得不用這樣子啦我覺得不用這樣 我覺得政府盡量幫忙不要意識形態然後第二個齁 我昨天看到有那個反核團體去跟總統啊見面嘛 然後還是反核啊然後有人轉述說 總統在勸他們說哎呀 現在狀況不一樣了啦電力供應不如預期啦"},{"start":13332.741,"end":13354.729,"text":"AI產業需求啦那電力部有評估嗎現在是沒有辦法達到之前的電力供應的目標了嗎就是說我們滾動式的嘛2032年之前2032年、2034年之前我們都已經評估好至少在這一段時間裡面電力的供應是沒有問題的電力供應沒問題但是它有沒有達到你的預期有沒有"},{"start":13356.151,"end":13383.245,"text":"就沒有問題啊我們有達到就是因為我們會估算就是說包括AI算力的需求等等一些需求後來半導體進來你最新的這樣好不好你最新的那個預計譬如說我們的需電量是多少你把那所有的產業的發展全部算進來你就預期到2032嗎2034 對需要我們大概我們需要多少電然後我們可以發多少電對然後我們發電的裝置容量各個是多少對對對"},{"start":13384.025,"end":13409.431,"text":"你提供給我一份資料可以可以那因為總統講說用電供電不如預期啦他是這樣子講所以有重新那個重啟的需求嘛是總統講的嘛但是部長講說我們滾動事件部長講說目前為止是沒有至少到2032是沒有那你資料給我我來看一下好不好謝謝好謝謝葉元之委員謝謝部長"},{"start":13411.505,"end":13439.894,"text":"接下來我們請劉建國委員質詢好 謝主席有請部長有請幹部長台電的曾董事長台電曾董事長部長你看每一戰爭的衝突每一戰爭的衝突會持續多久大約你的觀察"},{"start":13443.538,"end":13469.207,"text":"這個我在猜應該是不會我個人啦這個是我個人因為不會太久因為美國選舉快到好不會太久到底是到底是多久你猜嘛我尊重部長的用猜的方式是在三個月在半年在一年大約啦大約你猜應該是不會那麼久啦你猜是多久我猜是你怎麼看董事長"},{"start":13471.144,"end":13478.433,"text":"你們兩個套好了你猜的是你猜的為什麼要看董事長還是董事長提供猜的日期給你"},{"start":13480.835,"end":13503.23,"text":"因為對我們來講,我們還是把事情準備好比較正常沒有錯沒有錯,但是總是你有講說你猜嘛大致上,所以我是請教你的對事情的觀察我們就做好萬全的準備啦比如說我們先看到把所有的事情,六月跟七月的事情做好你是一個做事情非常積極,然後也非常會做事的一個部長所以你覺得萬全準備沒有問題"},{"start":13504.851,"end":13510.717,"text":"但是我只是請教你說你猜大約會多少因為是剛剛你回應我嘛但是你看了曾董事長之後你就不猜了"},{"start":13512.506,"end":13533.938,"text":"這是曾董事長在干擾你還是怎麼樣沒有 報告委員因為我們現在準備都是比如說現在3月份的時候我們都看到6月份我們先把它準備好那再過一個月我們就一直往下一直往下準備這樣子好啦 沒關係部長就看了董事長之後就已經回應我的方式就已經有改變了齁那我等一下就好好再請教曾董事長齁"},{"start":13535.118,"end":13559.466,"text":"每一兩週的停火協議即將在台灣時間4月23號的早上8點對不對然後就要到齊了啦這也不用猜嘛然後也就是說明天早上川普已經也直接表態停火協議不可能延期那甚至以兩年除非伊朗乖乖簽字或者這個赫摩茲海峽會繼續封鎖甚至不排除再度風炸這是即時的一個新聞嘛"},{"start":13560.726,"end":13580.194,"text":"然後在此同時 伊朗方面也持續釋出更強硬的訊號他們的國會議長卡利巴夫稱伊朗已經做好在戰場上的準備也亮出了一個新底牌好 那我想我是要提醒部長當初在2022年的烏俄戰爭原本是說閃電 閃電戰結果它一閃 從2022閃到現在還沒有閃完"},{"start":13588.402,"end":13605.144,"text":"所以部長原本猜 後來不猜我覺得我也能夠理解了這部份有 也很難有了因為你也不是川普總統的經濟部長 董事長即便你們是 你們也會猜不到了"},{"start":13606.451,"end":13630.696,"text":"所以攀油啊 攀油經營只要你要去面對我們就是要做 剛剛秦副部長所講的就要做萬全的準備啊 這個我接受所以現在經濟部跟台電面對美伊衝突 赫普之海只要封鎖要實施短期調度 賣電啦 賣了電廠那你的短期要作為這個多元備援方案分散天然氣供應風險強化這整個電力嘛 對不對"},{"start":13634.117,"end":13646.242,"text":"那我就是要請教部長跟曾董事長嘛你所謂的短期三個月就5、6、7嘛對不對好那5、6、7未來會不會8、9、10未來會不會10、11、12現在沒有這樣的規劃沒有這樣的規劃所以就5、6、7那一天我有詢問那個處長沒有這樣的規劃就是到5、6、7嘛好5、6、7就截止了"},{"start":13665.562,"end":13682.362,"text":"就567就截止短期嘛 短期就567嘛 567之後就不會再動了跟台電的合約就是 台售的合約 對 就是所以不會再簽下去了目前就是567 目前567嘛 會不會再延嘛"},{"start":13683.69,"end":13689.312,"text":"目前沒有這樣的規劃除非戰爭真的又變激烈就像烏克戰爭這樣嘛對不對閃電變成一閃四年嘛那你會不會對於賣電的整個調動的電力請他再重啟之後又像烏克戰爭這樣"},{"start":13703.41,"end":13712.836,"text":"一年 延到四年不會你怎麼會不會他說你不一定是經濟部長啊你或許是行政院的院長啊你或許是中華民國的下任總統啊"},{"start":13714.878,"end":13734.179,"text":"怎麼不會你用猜的還是你未卜先知我們跟他合約是有一個那個他有那個你剛剛合約就是短期的五六七嘛那你的合約你因應每一戰爭的情況之下你要完全準備之後你會不會八九十嘛不會那你就馬上跟打我說不會"},{"start":13735.3,"end":13756.818,"text":"對 因為操作許可是到2027年嘛所以他就不能 即便是我們要也不行操作許可是到2027 即便是要也不行 但是你的5672027不到 這個八九十不到2027啊對不對 十一時候也不到2027啊所以你的短期不叫做三個月啊你的短期 你猜"},{"start":13757.919,"end":13777.027,"text":"可能會再增加一劑你猜可能又會再多增加一劑那為什麼叫短期報告委員因為戰爭一開發的時候一發生的時候我們當然要做多元的韌性的調度跟準備但是過了三個月以後我想我們又比較有時間可以做比較充分的調度"},{"start":13778.047,"end":13799.214,"text":"那也不一定要用到這個 戰爭開打也不是現在這個時間然後他也有挺我的這樣的一個協議然後照理講在協議過程裡面我那天有特別拜託處長趕快跟你們回報快速的去盤整不要再想到已經整個停機的賣1跟賣3不要再想到那個地方而且部長你自己講的賣掉機組重啟將減少台中電廠用煤我們運營人的睡覺比較少"},{"start":13805.771,"end":13825.696,"text":"所以台中降載那雲林再來徵用麥一跟麥三來用煤發電你覺得對於雲林的人這樣交代的過去嗎不是我們是承諾這你講的啊這你講的啊降低中火用煤量啊所以在中火降低用煤量對於雲林就是要增加用煤量嘛基本上邏輯就這樣這沒問題這不用猜嘛"},{"start":13827.336,"end":13849.134,"text":"我是要跟補充說補充你處理工序處理事情的延期跟應變的領域其實我都很敬佩但是這種的思維模式是不對的我們不是賣一二三二就已經拆掉了剩下一三這個地方到二六二七就結束了嘛對不對好 為什麼還去徵用這個地方根本不需要做這種事情全國的"},{"start":13851.255,"end":13868.67,"text":"這個發電廠基本上你們都可以去做盤整去做調度你為什麼唯獨要去思考到這個地方而且過去過去這一個電廠是最糟糕的過去還在燒什麼石油膠這個石油膠當時民進黨之爭之後結果馬上把它廢死掉了沒咧是有心話的咧"},{"start":13870.482,"end":13889.971,"text":"所以現在沒有修完之後還必須要總統有公告才禁止燃燒石油膠來作為能源的使用現在已經禁止了你過去了石油膠連印度青鹿外用的東西一起自來味然後我們持續在燒不修法還是持續啊那為什麼還要重蹈覆轍還要揪起"},{"start":13891.512,"end":13906.075,"text":"這個地方過去的痛苦那完全是因為戰爭的發生我必須要一些振興啊所以我們要讓台中的戰爭不變就對了繼續來修明這邏輯怎麼說的過去你再說再說真的這不用猜邏輯上不通啦邏輯上不通主席已經站上來了我拜託你你跟董事長都是一個很會做事然後做人也做好的人拜託一下你如果這麼好你不要對我們香港人不好這樣好不好"},{"start":13922.051,"end":13928.817,"text":"這可以休,這不休息,一瓶就降災,一瓶你還要休起來,你就是對我們分量不好啊沒有,這個還是要感謝雲林啦謝謝啦,謝謝你的感謝,感謝就是不要再想賣一跟賣三我堅決反對到底,拜託部長,拜託曾董,謝謝,謝謝主席,謝謝"},{"start":13946.395,"end":13955.824,"text":"蘇巧惠蘇巧惠蘇巧惠委員何欣淳何欣淳何欣淳委員接下來我們請盧憲一委員質詢就先請部長 請工部長 謝謝"},{"start":13975.598,"end":13995.65,"text":"今天就自來水的問題就這樣 剛剛看原息性計畫 看到114年度可用的預算數是197億可是到目前為止的7月了 它僅55億4625萬元我想知道說現在的實現率是28.1% 是不是我們的資訊力太差第二就是說全國的自來水的普及率已經到95.55%"},{"start":13997.831,"end":14020.94,"text":"可是看到我们原住民地区比如说屏东县还在72台东县83苗栗87南投81也就是说都集中在我们原住民居住的地区所以对我们原住民地区是相对的不公平而且我们是每天看好山好水的人可是我们的普及率却远远不如全国各地然后现在还有看到前瞻计划的预计改善户数是7000户"},{"start":14022.04,"end":14043.643,"text":"可是實際的改善會數是1367 也就是說不到五分之一 不到20%我想知道說目前這來水公司和經濟部這邊有沒有你們的一個改善方案或是說可以說服我們原住民 民主在這個廣大的三元生活什麼時候可以期盼到好的水我請水公司說明一下"},{"start":14046.943,"end":14071.735,"text":"謝謝委員的一個指導那有關山地原住民或平地原住民的部分的這個自來水其實以我們自來水公司計算是普及率還有一部分是用簡易自來水那像山地原住民我們自己的統計算接我們自來水公司的普及只有38%左右不過再加進簡易自來水的話這些山地原住民"},{"start":14072.855,"end":14099.241,"text":"區域大概普及益有達到76%那平地原住民的部分大概我們水公司的普及益已經有88%再加一些減水至少有92%左右我們是期望說現在看到這麼多的經驗就是還沒有執行的部分我是希望能夠盡快的大概普及率能夠更高然後它的執行率能夠更高第二個最後就是一個自來水的那個檢測常常就是明明是你說剛剛的檢測自來水可是有些地方的檢測是"},{"start":14100.061,"end":14107.53,"text":"有的是半年一年可是在汛期的時候會發現他們的水確實是不堪使用我們就加強那個簡易自然水的強化讓他的這個水質會比過去還要更好這個是我們可以來強化的部分那我們在地方"},{"start":14116.681,"end":14135.573,"text":"有一些問題來提供給部長參考我們在明明是我們是水源地的地方比如說我是住在馬家鄉我們的水源是可以提供給都會區比如說屏東市這些鄰近的平地的鄉鎮甚至遠道鳳山可是我們沒有服務據點也就是說在我們"},{"start":14136.934,"end":14160.996,"text":"地區的生活的民眾如果他要申請這來水的話他一定要到都會區也就是說他要花很多的時間然後呢我們馬家、霧台、山地這三個地方沒有服務據點以外呢他的比如說他要繳費啊有一些比如說是一般不是一般的朋友比如說他是工程費用他不能到7-11繳也不能到一般的那個郵局繳他一定要到公司去繳那"},{"start":14161.596,"end":14185.611,"text":"我們明明是提供水源的人 可是我們享受不到這樣的服務第三個就是說我們希望有一個回饋機制我們已經供應這麼多年的水給都會區 可是卻沒有一般的回饋給我們原住民部落 所以這個部分應該經濟部這邊也要思考還有就是最後一個就是門牌取得的困難你要申請這籃水要門牌 可是這個門牌的取得"},{"start":14186.051,"end":14203.546,"text":"其實常常要主人自己去弄然後其實沒有一個專責的一個單位在負責做這些事情比如說國有地要變更或者是說它嚴管要可能因為居住地的範圍擴大了結果要嚴管的時候其實很多基礎的事情都是要勞駕"},{"start":14204.987,"end":14218.542,"text":"鄉公所 可是鄉公所沒有這樣的一個編制跟人力去做多餘的事情我是覺得說自來水公司應該可能要再編制一個所謂專責的一個單位在我們協助我們原鄉地區的自來水工作"},{"start":14220.994,"end":14246.688,"text":"這個分成幾個部分剛剛提到的這個檢疫自來水這個部分因為我們是補助給地方政府來做但是我們也會要求就是說在水質的部分或剛剛您提到加強檢驗的部分那我們既然補助給地方政府我們就會要求地方政府這個部分可能要更積極來落實那這是一個部分那剛剛提到的就是說有關於需不需要門牌或等等事實上我們現在都"},{"start":14248.874,"end":14261.062,"text":"從寬認定只要是地方政府認了我們都認所以這個我們再跟這個地方政府來做溝通專責單位能不能有一個窗口給我們原住民地區"},{"start":14263.366,"end":14289.675,"text":"跟委員報告大概我們在屏東區有新成立的一個區處那我們有在各鄉鎮裡面雖然不是每個鄉鎮都有一個服務所不過我們大概如果原住民區地區如果有這個需求的話我們盡量請我們的服務單位然後盡量跟當地的代表或民意代表或是村里長來做一些聯繫來協助他們OK好謝謝"},{"start":14291.496,"end":14313.057,"text":"好謝謝縣議委員謝謝部長好接下來我們請這個侯孟楷委員質詢好主席謝謝麻煩請拱部長請拱部長謝謝"},{"start":14321.497,"end":14343.237,"text":"好 部長好 部長本席針對能源的議題再跟您就教一下剛我從教育文化委員會過來 今天何安慧主委來那他在答詢其他委員的一個答 詢答的時候他答覆他說他認為核電是有穩定電價的作用那媒體把他下標 剛即時新聞也出來 您認不認同這個講法"},{"start":14345.49,"end":14372.543,"text":"但是它現在的比例大概只有即便是核二核三它重啟以後大概佔的比例大概是百分之十但是對整體的這個影響就是百分之十這個多元嘛我們一直強調是說能源其實是可以更多元不然台電現在也不用送重啟核三廠的計畫只要是多元安全的我們都所以核電是能夠穩定電價"},{"start":14374.383,"end":14400.957,"text":"有助穩定電價至少我們不會說成本的部分影響譬如說剛剛很多委員都在關心其實這從228之後到現在兩個月左右時間所以為什麼藍氣 藍煤 石油的價格都往上甚至破新高為什麼再生能源因為再生能源我們是本地的能源核能當然也是如果將來重啟的話的確是有"},{"start":14401.457,"end":14430.792,"text":"有助於就是因為國際的如果是能源價格波動的時候他比較不會受到影響好來那這樣子我想請教因為現在核電的部分持續他就在走這個程序那就是專業專業審查安全審查尤其核安很重要這個沒有辦法急另外一個部分就是說那我們比較短時看到的其實大家也都在講因為你也有這個要重啟其他藍美電廠的一個計畫或可能性那我現在想請教到底我們有沒有"},{"start":14431.532,"end":14460.188,"text":"這個我現在都是以一個最嚴謹的態度來去預估料敵從寬啊中東戰事真的不知道什麼時候會結束那我們現在夏天馬上來到五月進入就是用電的高峰那有沒有後續如果說真的緊張的一些其他的備援計畫或是備用方案甚至韓國政府也已經講了就是有這個什麼民間公務車要減少啊等等的部分"},{"start":14460.908,"end":14470.461,"text":"那我們到目前為止好像看起來還沒有只有卓院長一個月前講一句就說大家就是深入檢出啦意思就是說大家是精簡車輛使用"},{"start":14472.301,"end":14496.252,"text":"但我比較想要具體的做法有沒有還是我們認為是說我們不管怎麼樣我們都可以撐得過因為報告委員我們還是要看就是說我們的這個備用狀況嘛備存存存量狀況那因為我們現在的存量油的部分我們現在還是有140天雖然法定是90天這個都有講啦對對對所以都還符合那除非這個掉得很快我們就可能要思考"},{"start":14497.172,"end":14519.825,"text":"一直維持因為戰爭已經一個多月了它一直可以維持就表示我們一直進來掉得很快那這樣子本席就是問一些就比較數字層面因為我們相信制度不相信人不是說用人來判斷而是說我們制度怎麼樣有沒有掌握假設我們到什麼時間點我們的備存量到什麼時間點我們可能就要研議plan B"},{"start":14521.662,"end":14550.27,"text":"因為這樣就是說因為我也問過中油嘛我也問過中油一樣的問題其實這都是同一個邏輯我現在講的是說當中油到哪個油價飆到哪個時間點的時候中油沒有辦法完全吸收因為到目前為止其實從2月開始油價已經全面上升甚至有破歷史的天價可是中油都還是吸收什麼時候時間點是中油譬如說破到一桶多少錢的時候中油可能也沒有辦法它確實要反映"},{"start":14551.01,"end":14569.108,"text":"那這些有沒有在每一次我回得到答案都是每個禮拜院長會有這個會議啊所以滾動檢討啊但是部長您身為過去也擔任過秘書長您也是經濟部的這個主管其實更應該要內部有方案跟劇本"},{"start":14569.748,"end":14585.028,"text":"報告委員我們現在從事實上時間上的規劃因為比如說天然氣的調度事實上油比較沒有問題是100多天嘛那天然氣的部分我們就是往下看三個月我們就要先調到那再往後一個月我們會再往下"},{"start":14585.849,"end":14600.178,"text":"如果調不到的話或調得不夠的話那時候我們就要比較緊急的來做一些因應的處理那目前看起來是我們都還好都可以調得到而且說老實話全世界因應這個戰爭也都在適應"},{"start":14602.899,"end":14617.719,"text":"就是剛開始的時候 就大家也都是蝦子摸象蝦子過河 摸石過河剛開始大家不曉得怎麼樣去調度這件事情但是現在已經過了一個多月以後大家已經比較熟悉哪裡可以調得到比較清楚了那"},{"start":14618.46,"end":14644.76,"text":"有多產的部分他們也願意供應到這個市場現貨市場價格現貨市場出來了所以部長我還是提醒因為這個內部的資訊資料你們一定比國人跟委員都還來得清楚我一而再再三強調不是要找查而是我認為說政府應該要有預先劇本而不是發生狀況才來做所以為什麼我們固定的每一個禮拜都會對外說明"},{"start":14645.22,"end":14671.779,"text":"我們現在的存量狀況怎麼樣好那最後兩點啊因為現在剛也有劉建國委員關心這個藍媒的部分本席的選區也有林口火力發電廠它是藍媒發電那其實它影響的不只是台北市260萬人新北市4來萬人桃園200多萬人因為它這整個大台北地區都有空氣的影響過去本席曾在王美花部長的任內的時候我有提一個臨時提案"},{"start":14672.239,"end":14689.22,"text":"我也接受到王美花部長的一個承諾就是因為當時藍莓持續飆高所以有一年突破到704萬噸一年那我那時候就有講是說我們未來是以這為標準不能超過那到目前為止今年我們有沒有"},{"start":14689.4,"end":14713.369,"text":"目前的規劃不會都不會嗎就是還是要信守這個承諾因為我們過去提出來就是那個是一個高標那你如果說政府一直告訴我們說非核家園再生能源等等的那藍煤相對來講是比燃氣造成的空汙都還要嚴峻也因此林口火力發電廠都還維持這樣的一個標準林口的那是超超臨界是在煤裡面是最好的"},{"start":14714.77,"end":14730,"text":"如果說你要再炒說像以前賴清德院長講的什麼乾淨的沒的話我想一般的國人聽不進去好不好那一分鐘的時間也是一樣因為再生能源我們現在有在講那本席另外選區另外一個部分是何一場"},{"start":14731.141,"end":14747.832,"text":"合一廠現在沒有重啟的計畫沒有但本席之前就有提過合一廠的優勢在於是它相對來講還是比較北海岸地區人煙相對稀少還有它過去的電網都已經不好了是也因此在那邊應該有再生能源的"},{"start":14748.912,"end":14768.367,"text":"發展可能性如果假設我們合一廠能夠轉變為譬如說像您這邊有提到的生殖能、氫能等等的發電那未來它的電網的配置就會比較容易來供應那我過去也提出是不是針對合一廠那邊因為北海岸也有一些地熱也有一些洋流的優勢"},{"start":14769.628,"end":14786.957,"text":"那我們目前是不是可以要求我們來研究看看因為這個有牽涉到技術面的問題當然當地居民還有溝通的問題但是如果說以我們現在講嘛是再生能源來講總是它的溝通成本相對比較少而且我想說因為佈置成本已經完成了嘛對"},{"start":14787.737,"end":14812.067,"text":"過去合一廠那邊的電網都已經佈置完嘛所以現在合一廠如果說那個地方可以轉變成再生能源的發電不管是用洋流能、地熱能、氫能它都會對於我們有實質的幫助嘛好 這個我們來研究那部長什麼時候 總是研究要給我一個時間我跟委員報告那個合一廠現在最重要的工作是在做廚藝工作"},{"start":14813.327,"end":14835.099,"text":"我們先把我們會把廚藝的工作做到一個階段廚藝工作這個是兩部都可以進行吧那個跟委員報告我這樣子講喔是因為牽涉到還有規模的問題因為其實合宜廠是面積最小的一個廠然後我現在還要做室內乾除做了以後的空間他能不能做什麼事北海那部分如果有地熱潛力的部分我們會做地熱不然的話可能就是要做風力以這兩個來看我們會來做做一些相關的規劃是啊很好啊所以這個完全不衝突啊董事長"},{"start":14842.523,"end":14870.165,"text":"一方面是廚藝你持續照廚藝的腳步走但另外一方面你其他的部分你開始就可以去譬如說請專家學者來做地熱的了解那邊到底有沒有豐富的資源風力到底有沒有可行那未來以及我今天不是說今天講完明天就讓你去做我是講是說未來如果廚藝完成然後還有相對的發電的時候我們那邊要有多少的風機還是我們要用怎麼樣的地熱這種事現在就可以啟動規劃吧"},{"start":14872.216,"end":14885.579,"text":"我們來研究看看好 所以什麼時間點還是一樣要給我個時間表嗎我才能夠繼續追蹤三個月內本席等你三個月 好不好但是其實也請容許本席提醒部長"},{"start":14887.587,"end":14912.419,"text":"這個質詢之前我就已經提過台電應該也已經聽過本席這樣講這個其實是台電的資源其實是經濟部的資源不要把資源放著不用所以我願意再等你三個月但我希望這三個月真的是有投入專家學者去研究瞭解到底那裡適合做什麼樣的再生能源然後提出具體可行的方案而不是再來"},{"start":14913.8,"end":14933.722,"text":"再研議或是說再來雙手一攤說我們現在在做廚藝我想這樣的一個態度就不是一個積極的態度好不好感謝好謝謝侯孟凱偶委員蘇清泉蘇清泉蘇清泉委員接下來我們請伍麗華委員質詢"},{"start":14943.327,"end":14971.11,"text":"謝謝主席有請部長關切的議題有水利署地礦中心水利署還有地礦中心部長好我在上一屆非常的有幸能夠參與礦業法的修法那也在112年6月完成修正公布那這個把我們長年以來詬病的像是霸王條款忘年採礦"},{"start":14972.312,"end":14975.134,"text":"這個修31條47條之外呢還有一個是第63條就是關於礦業權利金回饋的部分那我們知道的就是113年就是完成了這個回饋金的撥放辦法"},{"start":14989.204,"end":15009.913,"text":"所以呢在去年114年應該是首次的播放那我們非常高興的就是我們終於可以落實取之於民用之於民取之於在地用之於在地這樣的一個想法觀念那我們也預估大概會有3.3萬名的周邊居民可以受惠"},{"start":15010.513,"end":15033.293,"text":"那這其中我們看到像經濟部這個115年有編列這個礦產權利金的回饋金是1.14億我想先請教一下有沒有如期轉發有報告委員去年10月完全就播放給受惠民眾大概3.4萬人"},{"start":15034.727,"end":15061.59,"text":"所以有3.4萬那確實的就是每個相公所都有發放出去都已經完成發放好那我在這邊就是想要特別提醒並不是發放現金就沒事了啦我還是希望說因為一定有其他的承諾好比工作機會公共建設因為這個知情同意的這樣的一個原則所以我是特別希望說"},{"start":15062.671,"end":15067.874,"text":"我們可以監督專款專用能夠實質投入這些受影響部落的環境維護我只是要提醒不要只有發放現金就好像覺得結束了我覺得這個部分我會希望說我們能夠繼續的追蹤然後另外一個部分我們也擔心就是這些舊的礦產"},{"start":15086.305,"end":15112.263,"text":"那到底有沒有依照這個修法之後的新法來重新進行諮商同意的程序請教一下你們有沒有查過全部都完成了嗎報告委員 目前齁要辦理原民諮商的總共六七個礦六七個礦六十七個對 那完成的已經剩四個礦那沒有完成的怎麼辦"},{"start":15114.435,"end":15124.32,"text":"還在辦理當中的算算的話好我在這邊就是希望說要針對沒有依法辦理遵照原基法第21條諮商同意這些礦產你們要啟動具體的採儲跟停止開發的機制拒絕這種假同意那這個部分你們可以做到嗎"},{"start":15135.987,"end":15148.241,"text":"我們每個月都會函詢當地的鄉鎮市公所那對於辦理中的有沒有延宕我們都有查詢 目前沒有這種情勢"},{"start":15149.002,"end":15176.356,"text":"那我就是希望說經濟部跟園民會合作針對這些礦業業者就原住民諮商同意所做出的這些承諾我再一次強調其實承諾有很多不是發放現金就了事希望能夠有一個管考追蹤那我也希望能夠給我一些就是那個時候他們針對每一個地方有關部落所做出的承諾紀錄我可以拿到這個資料嗎"},{"start":15179.723,"end":15192.575,"text":"好 謝謝就是方便我來做追蹤那第二個部分因為原鄉一定都很關心水那這個地方我們也看到政府有所謂的供水韌性要來解決"},{"start":15193.456,"end":15199.258,"text":"但是我看到的是預計要投入數十億要去處理這個降低漏水的問題高預算高韌性希望供水穩定可是在我們原鄉我們還是會受困於很多地方他不太願意申請自來水"},{"start":15211.781,"end":15239.394,"text":"那或者是他受困於目前的簡易自來水系統很老舊而且我們的問題很麻煩因為我們的水源取水口往往都是非常遠的一個距離所以感覺這一些杯水車薪就是預算很匱乏然後遇到颱風遇到山豬等等他就會斷水非常的辛苦那我在這邊就是想要知道說我們有沒有辦法多撥一點經費"},{"start":15241.115,"end":15262.46,"text":"到這個地方請教一下報告委員這個檢疫自來水部分在我們最新的第五級計畫裡面就檢疫自來水如何加強它的韌性跟它的水質我們增補很多經費尤其它的一個配水池的天數以前一到兩天現在都希望做到三到五天"},{"start":15263.18,"end":15275.926,"text":"第二個所有的管線我們希望用好一點的管材還有你剛剛談到的容易因為驅衰點受到一些野生動物或是天災的影響我們都加強更多的經費來做相關的保護工作我就是因為我們很多街道的陳情他們都會提到要換管換管但是有8年"},{"start":15285.551,"end":15302.865,"text":"這個我們都可以突破 而且我們特別跟委員報告我們就這個檢驗自來水的水質的部分從去年開始我們已經投入很多經費來做整體改善 包含用紫外線或者是用砂濾池或者是加一些濾氣消毒等等還有RO逆滲透 我們都大幅來改進"},{"start":15306.488,"end":15322.135,"text":"我想了解因為我光是自己的部落我每天看那個群組我都快要昏倒了他們說有那麼困難嗎我自己也覺得不好意思所以我希望如果會後有機會再跟各位討論但是我更重視的應該部長很了解因為我總質詢多次都關心我們部落很缺排水系統"},{"start":15329.659,"end":15356.504,"text":"它會造成什麼嚴重後果一大雨一颱風因為它沒有排水系統它就地下浸流所以很多地方就會掏空所以這個部分非常的嚴重所以我希望是說我們看到115年度水資源防洪公務預算是508億這樣的一個供水跟排水的一個水利的大餅我也希望有沒有辦法去保障一下原鄉的分配權"},{"start":15359.166,"end":15369.41,"text":"報告委員你所談的部分應該都是在山區那山區一般都是農業部的一個權責那我們現在在行政院的所以流域"},{"start":15375.413,"end":15395.443,"text":"我講的是部落排水我們很多部落都沒有排水系統我們是想說我們在現在所以留意的一個大的平台裡面在行政院的平台裡面我們可以提案來就這個部分來努力我希望也可以到辦公室我可以講得更清楚因為還有時間那最後再給我半分鐘就是我有接到一個陳情花蓮"},{"start":15396.624,"end":15406.368,"text":"安通溫泉泡腳池封閉的一個陳情那因為地方的公民運動他們想要恢復但是我個人我也認為因為他是野蜥因為行水區的問題我覺得封閉我覺得也是對的因為對縣政府或者是鄉公所來講其實壓力啊圍管啊安全啊因為不合法也都很沉重但是我想請教一個簡單的問題因為這個安通溫泉的泡腳池他其實已經"},{"start":15427.537,"end":15439.367,"text":"營運30多年所以我認為這個行水區應該是可以檢討的因為他營運30多年都沒有問題那我不曉得說這個我們經濟部或水利署意見如何"},{"start":15441.696,"end":15459.51,"text":"委員 這個是我第一次看到了那是不是會後我再來瞭解這個我們有沒有辦法來怎麼樣因為這是地方公民運動我們來瞭解一下好不好請隨意署就瞭解一下謝謝主席 謝謝部長謝謝吳立外委好 接下來我們請陳冠廷委員質詢"},{"start":15472.055,"end":15497.91,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請部長跟能源署的代理署長好 請這個工部長跟能源署這個人好部長好 署長好那我想最近我們台灣有一個討論就是跟核能相關的這個議題嘛那不 核能的議題裡面我想這個是有很多各種不同的意見不過其中我們想最好最樂觀的看法好了就假設"},{"start":15499.244,"end":15519.853,"text":"核二或者是其他重新啟用的話大概可以貢獻百分之多少的能源大概百分之十最理想的狀況全部加起來是百分之十那這符合我們未來不管是台積電擴產不管是資料庫的這些運轉或者是其他的方式的這種各種的能源需求嗎在這幾年內當然還有其他的東西"},{"start":15522.034,"end":15549.309,"text":"最近聽到很多吼包含一般的民眾在想說奇怪啊這幾年怎麼大家都沒有在談論這個綠色能源怎麼這幾年在再生能源的討論好像似乎政府開始試著是呃躲著閃著閉著那各種的這種呃不管是在野黨的委員的攻擊就是說不管是風光啊什麼都是貪腐啊什麼的好像大家也是覺得說反正是不管我們的事情就不需要再花很多一直在努力對完全沒有放棄完全沒有放棄也不該放棄嘛對不對絕對不會放棄嘛"},{"start":15551.71,"end":15574.905,"text":"因為我看起來說在未來的五年十年之內就算在最好的狀況之下把核能全部重啟那你還是不夠啊那不夠的話你怎麼可以說我只要求這個我沒有辦法不僅僅沒有想說要怎麼節流也沒有想說要怎麼開源那開源其實很簡單就想說你最快速的我們就拿中國當作比方好了中國單一國家貢獻全球的太陽能它是新增的60%"},{"start":15576.98,"end":15583.368,"text":"中國在風力的這個未來就是新增的這個比例好像25年26年27年的現在比例都是佔大概60%左右"},{"start":15585.596,"end":15613.884,"text":"這也是我看到在野黨在稱讚說啊這個中國的這個基建多厲害啊基礎建設多好啊他們的太陽能板有鋪設多多啊他們的風電鋪設多多奇怪怎麼在台灣就變得好像是在攻擊我們自己的那個再生能源的能力我覺得這是一個很無法理解的地方啊因為你不能一方面只要這些風電跟這個太陽能在中國就是好的放在台灣就是必然就是不可以去推動的這是完全不符合這個世界潮流"},{"start":15614.824,"end":15633.64,"text":"中國在再生能源的成長說實在話它是對整個它的溫室的這個氣體的這個排放是有所來去檢定另一方面對於石油的依賴也是有可以檢定所以你如果要講中國的好話的話那為什麼你在台灣就不能夠試用怎麼同一個標準不能夠試用在兩個國家呢"},{"start":15634.781,"end":15654.374,"text":"我一直都不太懂這個事情所以我在這邊還是要再去呼籲再生能源包含我們台積電都是需要使用再生能源的這是要跟國際競爭裡面或者是在任何的ESH等等的發展上面都是需要的你不可能只偏廢任何一種能源那我再說一下好了這種中小型核電的這種模組"},{"start":15655.808,"end":15682.41,"text":"我上次在受到法國衛生人物邀請的時候我有去他們的原子能研究中心去我就詢問說請問這個我們什麼時候才有辦法有具備這個能力目前還沒有完整的具備這個能力你現在就還沒有完整具備這個能力你怎麼去開發你怎麼去直接來去設置就還沒有完整的具備這個能力的時候你就算有這個能力你要設置要花多少時間去還品要在哪裡建又要再重新這個公民的討論要多久10年還是20年"},{"start":15684.542,"end":15702.879,"text":"是不是所以我認為這都是緩不濟急的我們現在要講的是未來五年十年因應台灣經濟發展我們的能源要怎麼樣去處理他們在跟我們講說哇我們要這個快速採用這個核能發電啊然後甚至於還有人說核四啊什麼這不可能的事情時間就要花很久嘛"},{"start":15703.78,"end":15723.925,"text":"部件立刻要解決的問題你要怎麼去把它彌補住一個是LNG嘛對不對我們就是天然氣發電但是另外一種方式就是我們現在即刻要使用的還是一樣是綠能啊再生能源還是一樣我們要急需再去去退展啊你不可以讓中小企業越來越不想投資因為動不動就是這個也也這個顧此思彼"},{"start":15725.047,"end":15753.909,"text":"中小企業如果不願意來去投資這樣子的再生能源的產業的話那以後怎麼辦我必須要還是很正視這個問題啦不管是地熱也好啦或者是這個太陽能啦這個風力啦等等的我們必須還是要持續政府還是要做民眾的後盾啦不然還有儲能的部分不然每次都要躲閃躲飄只要怕爭議就是怕爭議嘛因為只要我們只要"},{"start":15754.97,"end":15775.659,"text":"來去推展這個時候然後就會被在野黨來去指責然後我們就刪奪票這是不對的在野黨的天職是指責在野黨的天職是監督但是執政黨的天職就是執行把該做的事情做好對 包委員我們任何有挑戰我們就會一一克服他在政委員是一定要做一定會做好 謝謝我們支持謝謝部長好 謝謝陳冠廷委員"},{"start":15785.448,"end":15793.856,"text":"吳思瑤 吳思瑤 吳思瑤林倩琦 林倩琦 林倩琦林楚英 林楚英 林楚英委員好"},{"start":15795.879,"end":15821.741,"text":"我稍微快速講一下今天的結論你們這個參與的政府各單位第一個法人科技預算的話這個可能要按照這個領域適當分配這個各法人的一個預算那這樣子可以發揮他專業的功能切記不可獨大獨佔再來第二個很多的這個委員非常關心無人機相關的不管是研發商轉"},{"start":15822.862,"end":15836.997,"text":"所以在這個相關計畫成果分年KPI上轉的成果以及我們飛鴻供應鏈在當中我們零組件國產的自主化比例是多少那一週內就交個報告給我們本席跟這個經紀人會來"},{"start":15839.005,"end":15859.599,"text":"第三個的話 我們很多委員關心 尤其是水利署自來水跟這邊的供給 尤其在偏鄉然後另外的話就是因為汛期大了所以新竹地區的治水等等 其他地區的治水防洪請盡速按照這個延續型計畫 已及格的新興計畫 趕快投入運作"},{"start":15862.561,"end":15886.597,"text":"那另外可能在其他有人在有關於海外地區服務中心以及CPTPP的一些的努力這個也在請部會相關準備報告那在深淵我想這個會努力達成那也想辦法在核電多元的這個重啟之後儘量讓我們的一個能源的韌性更加的強健"},{"start":15887.864,"end":15912.322,"text":"那麼所登記的發言除不在場外 其他都已經發言完畢 訊訊結束二 委員徐勛穎所提書面質詢列入記錄 並刊登公報再來 三 書面質詢和未及答覆部分 請相關單位一週內以書面答覆並複製本會委員另要求期限者從期鎖定"},{"start":15913.544,"end":15936.731,"text":"第四 各位委員針對預算案如有相關提案請於5月4號星期一下午5點前送經濟委員會辦公室 以利後續會診必時不再收案討論事項所列議案詢答結束 令定期繼續進行審查謝謝大家現在休息"},{"start":15944.718,"end":15962.688,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":16017.827,"end":16017.848,"text":"哦"}]}},{"id":"168761","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168761","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5880b40c5769f1576e6a3d48e3afc563812774c6aab6af5c95c54bff74e416c8e9d6e5b85468935ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"12:53:22 - 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核能的議題裡面我想這個是有很多各種不同的意見不過其中我們想最好最樂觀的看法好了就假設"},{"start":35.267,"end":55.877,"text":"核二或者是其他重新啟用的話大概可以貢獻百分之多少的能源大概百分之十最理想的狀況全部加起來是百分之十那這符合我們未來不管是台積電擴產不管是資料庫的這些運轉或者是其他的方式的各種的能源需求嗎在這幾年內當然還有其他的東西"},{"start":58.058,"end":85.953,"text":"最近聽到很多齁包含一般的民眾在想說奇怪啊這幾年怎麼大家都沒有在談論這個綠色能源怎麼這幾年在再生能源的討論好像似乎政府開始試著是呃躲著閃著閉著那各種的這種呃不管是在野黨的委員的攻擊就是說不管是風光啊什麼都是貪腐啊什麼的好像大家也是覺得說反正是不管我們的事情也就不需要再花很多一直在努力對完全沒有放棄完全沒有停下來也不該放棄嘛對不對絕對不會放棄嘛"},{"start":87.734,"end":110.926,"text":"因為我看起來說在未來的五年十年之內就算在最好的狀況之下把核能全部重啟那你還是不夠啊那不夠的話你怎麼可以說我只要求這個我沒有辦法不僅僅沒有想說要怎麼節流也沒有想說要怎麼開源那開源其實很簡單就想說你最快速的我們就拿中國當作比方好了中國單一國家貢獻全球的太陽能它是新增的60%"},{"start":113.004,"end":119.395,"text":"中國在風力的這個未來就是新增的這個比例好像25年26年27年的現在比例都是佔大概60%左右"},{"start":121.62,"end":149.911,"text":"這也是我看到在野黨在稱讚說啊這個中國的這個基建多厲害啊基礎建設多好啊他們的太陽能板有鋪設多多啊他們的風電鋪設多多奇怪怎麼在台灣就變得好像是在攻擊我們自己的那個再生能源的能力我覺得這是一個很無法理解的地方啊因為你不能一方面只要這些風電跟這個太陽能在中國就是好的放在台灣就是必然就是不可以去推動的這是完全不符合這個世界潮流"},{"start":150.851,"end":169.667,"text":"中國在再生能源的成長說實在話它是對整個它的溫室的這個氣體的這個排放是有所來去檢定另一方面對於石油的依賴也是有可以檢定所以你如果要講中國的好話的話那為什麼你在台灣就不能夠試用怎麼同一個標準不能夠試用在兩個國家呢"},{"start":170.808,"end":189.303,"text":"我一直都不太懂這個事情所以我在這邊還是要再去呼籲再生能源包含我們台積電都是需要使用再生能源的這是要跟國際競爭裡面或者是在任何的ESH等等的發展上面都是需要的你不可能只偏廢任何一種能源那我再說一下好了這種中小型核電的這種模組"},{"start":191.849,"end":218.419,"text":"我上次在受到法國衛生人物邀請的時候我有去他們的原子能研究中心去我就詢問說請問這個我們什麼時候才有辦法具備這個能力他說目前還沒有完整的具備這個能力你現在就還沒有完整具備這個能力你怎麼去開發你怎麼去直接來去設置就還沒有完整的具備這個能力的時候就算有這個能力你要設置要花多少時間去還品要在哪裡建又要再重新公民的討論要多久10年還是20年"},{"start":220.566,"end":238.643,"text":"是不是所以我認為這都是緩不濟急的我們現在要講的是未來五年十年因應台灣經濟發展我們的能源要怎麼樣去處理他們在跟我們講說哇我們要這個呃快速採用這個核能發電啊然後甚至於還有人說啊核四啊什麼的不是不可能的事情時間就要花很久嗎"},{"start":239.804,"end":259.962,"text":"部件立刻要解決的問題你要怎麼去把它彌補住一個是LNG嘛對不對我們就是天然氣發電但是另外一種方式就是我們現在即刻要使用的還是一樣是綠能啊這次那個還是一樣我們要急需再去去退展啊你不可以讓中小企業越來越不想投資因為動不動就是這個也也這個顧此思彼"},{"start":261.071,"end":289.93,"text":"中小企業如果不願意來去投資這樣子的再生能源的產業的話那以後怎麼辦我必須要還是很正視這個問題啦不管是地熱也好啦或者是這個太陽能啦這個風力啦等等的我們必須還是要持續政府還是要做民眾的後盾啦不然還有儲能的部分不然每次都要躲閃躲飄只要怕爭議就是怕爭議嘛因為只要我們只要"},{"start":290.991,"end":314.209,"text":"來去推展這個時候然後就會被在野黨來去指責然後我們就刪奪票這是不對的在野黨的天職是指責在野黨的天職是監督但是執政黨的天職就是執行把該做的事情做好報告委員我們任何有挑戰我們就一一克服他在政委員是一定要做一定會做好謝謝支持我們支持謝謝部長好謝謝陳冠廷委員"}]}},{"id":"168760","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168760","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5880b40c5769f15b36633dfc3a70f163812774c6aab6af5c95c54bff74e416c0ae87ae6cfd03fb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai 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有請部長有關切的議題有水利署 地礦中心水利署還有地礦中心"},{"start":19.743,"end":37.112,"text":"部長好我在上一屆非常的有幸能夠參與礦業法的修法那也在112年6月完成修正公布那這個把我們長年以來詬病的像是霸王條款忘年採礦"},{"start":39.137,"end":54.087,"text":"這個修31條47條之外呢還有一個是第63條就是關於礦業權利金回饋的部分那我們知道的就是113年就是完成了這個回饋金的播放辦法"},{"start":55.248,"end":75.934,"text":"所以呢在去年114年應該是首次的播放那我們非常高興的就是我們終於可以落實取之於民用之於民取之於在地用之於在地這樣的一個想法觀念那我們也預估大概會有3.3萬名的周邊居民可以受惠"},{"start":76.554,"end":84.3,"text":"那這其中我們看到像經濟部這個115年有編列這個礦產權利金的回饋金是1.14億我想先請教一下有沒有如期轉發有報告委員去年10月完全就播放給受惠民眾大概3.4萬人"},{"start":100.771,"end":127.634,"text":"所以有3.4萬那確實的就是每個相公所都有發放出去都已經完成發放好那我在這邊就是想要特別提醒並不是發放現金就沒事了啦我還是希望說因為一定有其他的承諾好比工作機會公共建設因為這個知情同意的這樣的一個原則所以我是特別希望說"},{"start":128.695,"end":133.898,"text":"我們可以監督專款專用能夠實質投入這些受影響部落的環境維護我只是要提醒不要只有發放現金就好像覺得結束了我覺得這個部分我會希望說我們能夠繼續的追蹤然後另外一個部分我們也擔心就是這些舊的礦產"},{"start":152.329,"end":178.424,"text":"那到底有沒有依照這個修法之後的新法來重新進行諮商同意的程序請教一下你們有沒有查過全部都完成了嗎報告委員 目前齁要辦理原民諮商的總共六七個礦六七個礦 六十七個對 那完成的已經剩四個礦那沒有完成的怎麼辦"},{"start":180.479,"end":190.343,"text":"還在辦理當中的 算一算的話好 我在這邊就是希望說要針對沒有依法辦理遵照原基法第21條諮商同意這些礦產你們要啟動具體的採儲跟停止開發的機制拒絕這種假同意那這個部分你們可以做到嗎"},{"start":202.008,"end":214.279,"text":"我們每個月都會函詢當地的鄉鎮市公所那對於辦理中的有沒有延宕我們都有查詢 目前沒有這種情勢"},{"start":215.06,"end":242.387,"text":"那我就是希望說經濟部跟園民會合作針對這些礦業業者就原住民諮商同意所做出的這些承諾我再一次強調其實承諾有很多不是發放現金就了事希望能夠有一個管考追蹤那我也希望能夠給我一些就是那個時候他們針對每一個地方有關部落所做出的承諾紀錄我可以拿到這個資料嗎"},{"start":245.747,"end":258.604,"text":"好 謝謝就是方便我來做追蹤那第二個部分因為原鄉一定都很關心水那這個地方我們也看到政府有所謂的供水韌性要來解決"},{"start":259.485,"end":271.835,"text":"但是我看到的是預計要投入數十億要去處理這個降低漏水的問題高預算高韌性希望供水穩定可是在我們原鄉我們還是會受困於很多地方他不太願意申請自來水"},{"start":277.819,"end":299.753,"text":"那或者是他受困於目前的簡易自來水系統很老舊而且我們的問題很麻煩因為我們的水源取水口往往都是非常遠的一個距離所以感覺這一些杯水車薪就是預算很匱乏然後遇到颱風遇到山豬等等他就會斷水非常的辛苦"},{"start":300.714,"end":328.501,"text":"那我在這邊就是想要知道說我們有沒有辦法多撥一點經費到這個地方請教一下報告委員這個檢疫自來水部分在我們最新的第五級計畫裡面就檢疫自來水如何加強它的韌性跟它的水質我們多增補很多經費尤其它的一個配水池的天數以前一到兩天現在都希望做到三到五天"},{"start":329.201,"end":338.129,"text":"第二個所有的管線我們希望用好一點的管材還有你剛剛談到的容易因為驅衰點受到一些野生動物或是天災的影響我們都加強更多的經費來做相關的保護工作我就是因為我們很多街道的陳情他們都會提到要換管換管但是有八年的"},{"start":350.74,"end":371.812,"text":"可以突破嗎這個我們都可以突破而且我們特別跟委員報告我們就這個檢疫自來水的水質的部分從去年開始我們已經投入很多經費來做整體改善包含用紫外線或者是用砂濾池或者是加一些濾氣消毒等等還有RO逆滲透我們都大幅來改進"},{"start":372.512,"end":388.157,"text":"我想了解因為我光是自己的部落我每天看那個群組我都快要昏倒了他們說有那麼困難嗎我自己也覺得不好意思所以我希望如果會後有機會再跟各位討論但是我更重視的應該部長很了解因為我總質詢多次都關心我們部落很缺排水系統"},{"start":395.7,"end":422.548,"text":"它會造成什麼嚴重後果一大雨一颱風因為它沒有排水系統它就地下浸流所以很多地方就會掏空所以這個部分非常的嚴重所以我希望是說我們看到115年度水資源防洪公務預算是508億這樣的一個供水跟排水的一個水利的大餅我也希望有沒有辦法去保障一下原鄉的分配權"},{"start":425.207,"end":436.18,"text":"報告委員你所談的部份應該都是在山區那山區一般都是農業部的一個權責那我們現在在行政院的所以流域他水的流域上游是農業部"},{"start":441.446,"end":461.484,"text":"對我講的是部落排水我們很多部落都沒有排水系統我們是想說我們在現在所以留意的一個大的平台裡面在行政院的平台裡面我們可以提案來就這個部分來努力我希望也可以到辦公室我可以講得更清楚因為還有時間那最後再給我半分鐘就是我有接到一個陳情花蓮"},{"start":462.645,"end":467.207,"text":"安通溫泉泡腳池封閉的一個陳情那因為地方的公民運動他們想要恢復但是我個人我也認為因為他是野蜥因為行水區的問題我覺得封閉我覺得也是對的因為對縣政府或者是鄉公所來講其實壓力啊圍管啊安全啊因為不合法也都很沉重但是我想請教一個簡單的問題因為這個安通溫泉的泡腳池他其實已經"},{"start":493.562,"end":505.391,"text":"營運30多年所以我認為這個行水區應該是可以檢討的因為他營運30多年都沒有問題那我不曉得說這個我們經濟部或水利署意見如何"},{"start":507.74,"end":519.595,"text":"委員 這個是我第一次看到了那是不是會後我再來瞭解這個我們有沒有辦法來怎麼樣是 因為這是地方公民運動是 是 我們來瞭解一下好不好請隨意署 好不好 就瞭解一下謝謝主席 謝謝部長"}]}},{"id":"168759","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168759","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5880b40c5769f141a19261dc71c6a910d96ca025fdcb7c5c95c54bff74e41601cee844413abcda5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"游顥","委員發言時間":"12:42:27 - 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那有請NCC主委好 我們請陳主委"},{"start":19.014,"end":38.608,"text":"主委好那延續剛才院之委員以及萬美委員還有翁曉琳委員所提到那目前的話因為即將要在4月30號的話其實總統院長他就應該要提出這個人選名單那其實這個主委您有被徵詢過是不是就是後面會持續嗎"},{"start":40.109,"end":64.251,"text":"目前目前沒有沒有嘛那剛才其實葉元志委員有提到三位跟林其實在你剛才所回應的部分其實還是有所差別那其實本席也是一樣的立場跟建議其實還是要請主委能夠跟左院長提一下那也希望說後兩週的部分如果有排相關的一個包括備詢的時候還可以說一下就是左院長的一個回覆"},{"start":64.571,"end":85.318,"text":"因為其實畢竟這個時間上是有限必須要提名單那這個名單的部分也不能夠急救張甚至也因為這樣子用情熱式的方式 昨天講提的名單如果他不是是一個社會各界可以接受的一個名單的話那其實再也當然還是必須要嚴格的來去看這些人選是不是正確的"},{"start":86.098,"end":108.985,"text":"那同樣的如果今天這些名單的人選他是在社會各界大家評估起來是覺得一個公正還有專業還有客觀合理的部分我相信其實在野黨也會有民眾他們的期待還有希望能夠通過嘛那最主要是看這個人選是不是適合啊所以我覺得其實今天在野的監督其實是代表著民意的監督"},{"start":109.745,"end":135.872,"text":"那我相信其實主委一樣可以跟左院長反映說其實我們也期待他提出的名單但是同樣的在這裡也要做出呼籲就是這個名單的人選啦他其實還是要讓社會各界是可以接受因為在之前來講有些人選不被接受不管他的政治立場偏頗或者是包括他在許多的一個媒體或者是電視的話他有特定立場那所以說那時候是有這些問題"},{"start":137.052,"end":152.829,"text":"所以那時候採名單沒有過那所以重新再提的名單總是希望是亮眼同時是社會各界的話都可以接受因為也有許多的委員的提名是在野黨也是支持那所以說也請主委把這些話也帶給院長好不好是好沒問題OK好謝謝"},{"start":153.55,"end":169.646,"text":"那剛才我就接了我們建豪委員跟葛羅街委員提的這個提案那其實我們是都表達支持那同樣的在這個低軌衛星的部分那其實現在來講它的外資比例那它其實回頭來講是在一個主權的問題主權的比例"},{"start":170.146,"end":197.923,"text":"那在這個放寬之後還投資進來但是控制權的如何能夠掌握那這個部分我想請教一下主委因為其實低軌衛星的話它不僅是一般的電信服務那同時它是暫時的時候取代這個台藍的通訊命脈還齋實的是唯一可指揮鏈的一個基礎設施那像目前的這個比例上那要如何來確保這個關鍵時刻的話訊號一樣是能夠給台灣使用還有這個是政府決定嗎還是到時候會回到他們比例的董事會來決定"},{"start":199.525,"end":219.974,"text":"是 跟委員報告大概從幾個方面來講假設今天郵駕國外的第一國衛星在台灣落地那台灣發生比較特別的緊急時刻他衛星訊號假設他跟本國月子沒有合作他突然中斷發生類似之前烏克蘭的情況一樣的話"},{"start":221.275,"end":247.736,"text":"那種情況就變成說他在台灣落地本身就已經是要接受本國的一些相關作用法的規範他違反我們這個定性管理法會有一些相關的處罰的機制那如果他跟本國業者有合作那本國業者跟他必須要簽有私契約的關係比如說你的信號供應必須要不中斷或什麼之類他違反會有私契約上的一些責任問題"},{"start":248.456,"end":261.844,"text":"那對公部門對作用法就會有一個處理那跟回到委員所講的如果特別時期那因為目前其他振興事業必須要遵必須要服有法律事項什麼法律事項動員就是相關動員緊急動員相關一些規範相關動員的時候其實就會有排這個排號題就是"},{"start":270.169,"end":288.301,"text":"指揮體系會優先使用那種層次的部分的流量的一些控管會在那邊處理那種情況之下也是一種法尊會做一個處理那同樣的就是也就剛才主委所提那因為如果說暫時不能用的通訊那就不是備援那就變成是換取了"},{"start":288.681,"end":312.779,"text":"那在目前國際間的話有些低軌衛星的一個服務它存在著似乎像是限制軍事用途跟保留服務的種子權還有一系列的政策來調整它的服務區域那像剛才有所提到的除了這個罰款依照合約的這個部分那到底有沒有辦法確保還在暫時的時候這個低軌衛星的使用我們還能夠保有這個指揮權跟控制權"},{"start":313.513,"end":335.859,"text":"這些都是事前假設某一家已經在台灣落地落地前我們給他照給他平均使用許可的時候就要講好這個條件白紙黑字寫好甚至於做成付款等等之類的那這個部分除了白紙黑字寫好還除了罰款之外還有其他有拘束力的做法嗎拘束力的做法就是對相關作用法的規範你違反東西"},{"start":337.85,"end":360.186,"text":"因為坦白講一件事就是他們這些科技的一個做衛星的這些大型的國際企業來講他們是不一定怕罰款他們有時候他們這種企業再去影響戰爭的這種控制的話其實是超乎一個國家的對這就是委員所講的這重點就任性而言他是絕對一等一大家毫無疑問他是任性最好"},{"start":361.807,"end":375.854,"text":"數據主權這個操控的這個就不完全是對等的這必須要一併考量那目前來講的話這個部分會朝向就是多元的方式來看這個外資的這個廠商或企業嗎"},{"start":377.852,"end":400.161,"text":"目前就是說已經來台灣落地的其實他都用現行的法令來進來台灣的那未來如果說要多元來發展甚至於說我跟委員報告就其他國家亞洲國家也好有些是外資完全拿掉的其實他背後都有一些籌碼或前提的籌碼的交換或前提的到位來確保比方說韓國韓國是用什麼來交換FTA"},{"start":403.843,"end":426.964,"text":"貿易FTA來交換他外資排掉日本用什麼交換就是他用他的那個在日本落地所以他樹地主權他可以實打實的掌控所以說我們也不希望我們是用發芽馬鈴薯來交換但是最主要的話是說那像這樣子相關的一個溝通跟協調的過程中就是軍方或國防部有沒有參與到低軌彗星如果開放外資的討論"},{"start":429.138,"end":455.04,"text":"相關的場合是有在討論那是外部會議是正式的會議嗎是沒錯是沒錯喔好沒關係我後面再追那最後還是回頭來講我們希望說像這樣子低軌灰燼是涉及到不管是災時的韌性以及戰時的韌性那希望他能夠嚴格被把關現在審查的時候不要留意刑事審查因為這種的話已經是有種接近於是國安的一個外包"},{"start":455.68,"end":479.98,"text":"那所以說在這個外包的過程中還如果外資的進入能夠像葛禄君委員所言是提升他的技術跟他的能量甚至提他的防衛韌性的話那當然我們一定是給予支持但是如果說控制權的話我們的國安命脈是掌握在其他的跨國企業身上的話那其實在這個部分我們都還是要嚴格把關那同樣的在NCC在審查的部分還是請主委這邊能夠確實能夠落實"},{"start":481.661,"end":502.73,"text":"相關的這些會議以及說在這個合約上的這個部分盡可能也可以讓民眾安心是 沒問題所以我們建議說這個案子還是多多聽取多方利害關係人的意見讓大家有個共識說如果是一定要選擇就沒有100分沒有100分的情況下我們必須要做一個取捨的話也讓社會上有個共識OK 好 謝謝謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"168765","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168765","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5880b40c5769f1d5779775e2049686f38d440c98c629e7a03d87abdfaedbe33678eecdf53964765ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳瑩","委員發言時間":"14:14:42 - 14:30:35","影片長度":"00:15:53","會議時間":"2026-04-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請環境部部長、國家科學及技術委員會、交通部、經濟部、內政部、農業部、衛生福利部、國家發展委員會就「我國氣候變遷調適現況檢討與全球調適目標接軌之推動情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查中華民國115年度中央政府總預算案關於環境部主管預算案。(公務及非營業特種基金預算案)\n三、審查中華民國115年度中央政府總預算案直轄市及縣市政府一般性補助款環境部主管部分預算。\n四、審查環境部函送財團法人環境資源研究發展基金會等4家財團法人115年度預算書案。\n\n【預算案僅詢答，115年4月30日下午5時截止收案】\n【專題報告及討論事項綜合詢答】\n\n【4月22日及23日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-04-22","start_time":"2026-04-22T14:14:42+08:00","end_time":"2026-04-22T14:30:35+08:00","duration":953,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":5,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-5-26-7"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.920343750000001,"end":6.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.269718750000003,"end":14.037218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.391593750000002,"end":16.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.04096875,"end":18.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.51721875,"end":21.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.05284375,"end":23.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.74034375,"end":45.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.49221875,"end":50.166593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.52096875,"end":60.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":61.860968750000005,"end":75.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":75.68159375,"end":80.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.50346875000001,"end":82.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.90409375,"end":85.90784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":85.90784375000001,"end":85.94159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.94159375000001,"end":85.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.34659375000001,"end":86.78534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.25784375,"end":89.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.64971875,"end":91.02096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":92.13471875,"end":98.63159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.28971875,"end":116.67096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":116.41784375,"end":119.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.74221875,"end":129.64784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.90096875,"end":157.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.94721875000002,"end":158.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.79096875000002,"end":162.18284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.62159375000002,"end":169.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.50221875,"end":171.91971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.49346875,"end":192.01784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.65909375,"end":193.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.11034375,"end":197.28284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.24471875,"end":198.91971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.05034375000002,"end":209.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.82096875000002,"end":210.27659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.81659375,"end":211.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.25096875000003,"end":221.26221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.83596875,"end":224.23221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.50221875000003,"end":225.34596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.66659375,"end":228.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.29471875000002,"end":244.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.46534375000002,"end":246.06846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.69284375,"end":259.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":259.90596875,"end":261.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.26034375,"end":261.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":261.40784375000004,"end":296.38971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":296.44034375,"end":308.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.55221875,"end":311.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.35346875000005,"end":320.25096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.53784375000004,"end":328.58721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.88659375000003,"end":330.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.35471875,"end":340.43346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.88909375000003,"end":343.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.93909375000004,"end":347.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.57159375000003,"end":348.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.34346875,"end":349.78221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.33909375,"end":355.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.08909375,"end":363.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.48034375000003,"end":368.07471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.37846875,"end":384.83159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":385.97909375,"end":389.20221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":389.20221875000004,"end":389.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":389.77596875,"end":403.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_0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簡報我把它框起來你們看一下喔"},{"start":331.453,"end":354.681,"text":"考量前期國家調適行動方案災害領域其屬性為導致氣候變遷危害的因素我想請教一下部長你同意這句話嗎這句話有點語意上怪怪的哪裡怪災害是氣候變遷造成的衝擊也會是一種災害"},{"start":357.365,"end":384.168,"text":"我這樣講好了因為這個整個邏輯看起來它是把這個結果當成原因因為災害它是一個結果災害不是原因那原因就是我講滯因導致的那個滯因導致的滯因它不等於災害那危害呢它也不等於災害那影響就是影響造成實際的損失的時候我們可以說它是災害"},{"start":385.998,"end":402.906,"text":"我這樣講沒錯吧是是好所以這句話有沒有怪怪的很怪好那其實你們的報告是有去解釋理由是說災害的屬性屬於導致氣候變遷危害的因素而非可進行調適操作的系統"},{"start":403.886,"end":423.139,"text":"那當然這樣看起來我們整個看起來就是說理由好像這個整個因果是很不明確的那變成說你們的認定是因為災害來導致氣候變遷而產生危害也就是先有了災害才會產生氣候變遷造成的危害而不是氣候變遷調適的不好會產生災害"},{"start":426.961,"end":451.197,"text":"我想這些都在說明在你們寫的這個報告的第36頁裡面你們可以再回頭去看那我想就是說一般的行動計畫是根據這個政策綱領來規劃的那你們這樣子的處理我不曉得是你們想要打臉國發會呢還是要搞混立法委員呢還是說你要搞亂這個國家呢"},{"start":453.754,"end":477.063,"text":"這個我們回去再檢討一下就是說這個到明年開始的新的一期我們會用新的觀念來做處理因為其實過去像我舉例例如說我們現在的TCCIP我們負責調試最重要的單位叫TCCIP就是負責很多的科學數據現在也在國家災害防救科技中心裡面那未來我們就希望說以環境部如果主管調試的話"},{"start":478.924,"end":506.806,"text":"應該在我們下面有一個調試的結合政策還有操作的一個協作的一個平台來服務大家目前我們沒有那個單位那我們本部我們的只有一個調試組下面也只有一個科專門來做這個事所以我們發現這個人力各方面都很混雜所以我們需要一個整合所以未來我們期待在新的一個明年開始的計畫或是說我們如果成立一個行政法人的話這個部分把它釐定的更清楚一點"},{"start":507.756,"end":511.719,"text":"這本行動計畫雖然合定的時候校對的時候部長還沒有上任看起來可能也"},{"start":527.489,"end":548.124,"text":"就說那個時候應該也不是你該負責的啦但是你現在當部長我覺得你要不要你們也可以回頭去看一下搞不好這個錯誤還不只這樣啊是是那所以那個之前你們那個你們署裡面同仁在在校對可能我不曉得發生什麼事那因為就是有這樣子邏輯的問題啊"},{"start":551.266,"end":573.1,"text":"就是說你講這個能力架構的這個成效因為平常其實很難檢驗一定是災害發生的時候才可以證明所以那你們如果再加上說因為有這個邏輯錯置的問題所以以這個馬灘煙色湖的這個一流的災害為例很多預算可能都提早給了地方政府了"},{"start":573.78,"end":596.37,"text":"那到災害真的發生的時候預算可能也流用了或者執行面就是說看不到成效而且屆時中央可能也沒有經費了到最後搞不好還得借助這個民間的力量來救災所以我想這個部分我們環境部也應該要藉由這個馬太安的這個災害的事故來檢討說我們這樣子的調整"},{"start":599.691,"end":616.969,"text":"是不是妥適可以好好想一想因為下一期的行動計畫明年116年會是新的開始那部長再麻煩你要就是說你們在審慎評估這個災害呢在這個氣候變遷的這個調適的定位到底是要"},{"start":617.93,"end":646.249,"text":"怎麼樣處理可以可以我們來處理這件事情好那我最後要跟布朗討論一個健康領域的問題我想我們台灣呢處於這個亞熱帶那面對這個氣候變遷的調適主要還是高溫所造成的這個熱危害那在這份報告裡面呢你們有擬定了一個目標第一項是確保氣候變遷下的環境品質你們對於這個熱的唯一品質指標是溫度"},{"start":649.051,"end":668.091,"text":"我們再看看你們的策略就是結合健康的資訊宣導民眾高溫的熱危害我想部長您剛好是氣象專家一定知道氣象局的監測站大部分都是在比較高的山上"},{"start":668.772,"end":692.854,"text":"那所以監測到的氣溫如果要對應到在平面民眾實際的生活領域可能會有低估的問題所以國外其實現在很多是用這個HIT INDEX來取代這個氣溫因為相對溫度會影響我們的排汗那台灣高濕度下再加上高溫高氣溫"},{"start":694.555,"end":713.139,"text":"實際上對於這個熱危害產生的健康威脅是非常大的那我建議你們參考這個要不要比照美國以酷熱指數為指標來監測這個高熱的環境例如說將來收取碳費的事業單位環境酷熱指數有多少那提醒他們的作業勞工做好這個熱危害的預防"},{"start":715.7,"end":739.139,"text":"那針對這些高溫地區建議環境部不要只有溫度而且要採用這個健康相對的這個指數去監控利用雲端上傳那累積足夠的這個數據以這個AI技術去做判斷我想這樣子比較能夠提醒民眾掌握資訊才能夠真正落實你們的策略跟措施我不曉得部長對於這樣的建議"},{"start":740.44,"end":761.899,"text":"謝謝委員因為去年我們開始把大家匯集各部會匯集在一起的時候發現就是三個指標啦委員你說的是勞動部他們用的那衛福部用WBGT啦那我們習慣是氣象署因為國人都習慣氣象署的那個溫度那個辨識度最高那這三種意義不一樣那我們又把它整合在一起等於是一次都提供三個"},{"start":762.76,"end":784.89,"text":"目前我也跟委員報告我們現在有跟中研院還有衛福部的一些專家一起合作我希望他們找出說到底哪一個溫度哪一個指標對應的健康實際上從健保指標勾撈出來的結果會得到一個科學上的更明確的數據我們再來選哪一個指標來做台灣的地帶現在是我們三個都一起陳列"},{"start":785.39,"end":807.273,"text":"三個一起也不是什麼壞事是是是那我想這個你們可以再去討論討論好那就是說對於這個環境部碳費的使用氣候邊遷調適工作計畫的他是重要的用途而且在農業上也已經納入了氣候邊遷調適的重點工作那"},{"start":808.274,"end":828.081,"text":"我在這邊我要講一下我們台東的另外一個名產大家除了釋迦以外有一個很重要的那個叫做焚風因為這個暖化影響加大這個我們台東農業的損害是不是就是說"},{"start":829.281,"end":849.138,"text":"因為畢竟現在農業已經納入這個氣候變遷一個氣候變遷調適的這個重點工作所以這樣子暖化影響的造成的這個農業損害是不是就是說部長你也可以考慮就是說除了加強輔導台東受到風風衝擊影響的農業然後如何減少弱果果蠅增生的問題因為畢竟這個"},{"start":857.845,"end":879.686,"text":"氣候這個氣溫比如在像一般市家應該到26度以上他們就是太熱然後他們會產生市家本身會產生一些生理變化所以造成這個弱國那所以這個部分對於災損嚴重的受災農民也可以接受來自碳費補助的這個低利貸款"},{"start":880.467,"end":897.977,"text":"那或者是其他有什麼樣攤費的補助我想這個部分是不是請部長能夠體恤我們台東地區的特殊性好這個焚風的問題好來做一下研究好謝謝委員那個第一個是說這個農業部他有一個農損的補助啦那我會去check"},{"start":898.377,"end":923.802,"text":"他們如果有針對焚風的話我們如何去做處理那第二個呢其實台東很適合這種所謂原民有很多氣候變遷的智慧那特別是調適的部分其實我們應該除了這個之外還可以更多啦那第三個呢焚風到底跟氣候變遷有沒有關係未來呢我們希望可以有更好的歸因的因子找出來到底是不是如果是的話那當然我們應該可以有優先的來補助"},{"start":924.582,"end":948.29,"text":"因為我想考察也可以去考察一下台中的分封因為今年四月份照理來講四月初其實市價應該還有一些產量但是都因為那個熱風的關係所以那個落果也很嚴重所以四月本來還有一些訂單已經都交不出來了我想這個部分再請部長我們一起來考察來看一下好 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我們有請嚴主委"},{"start":9.472,"end":36.644,"text":"黃委員好 主委早安 主委主委您是軍人轉任那個退伍會主委嘛是那我想退伍軍人同胞遇到的問題無非就是養訓那養就是醫療照護訓就是就業訓練那尤其對於這個中年離開軍體生涯的這些弟兄就業訓練就對他們來講就非常的重要那我們退伍會在桃園一個執訓中心那主要就是做好這個融健"},{"start":37.864,"end":56.709,"text":"直接訓練技能檢定還有就業輔導工作但是退伏會內部做的這個退出軍官兵這個參與訓練的這個概況啊跟這個性別的分析我們發現一件事就是參與訓練不管是男性或女性的這些退伏軍人他通訊處大多是集中在新北跟桃園"},{"start":57.549,"end":83.282,"text":"那顯然就是說我們退伍弟兄因為家庭環境跟居住地的關係他會選擇離居住比較近的地方來參加訓練那所以非居住在桃園跟新北這兩個地區參與的退伍弟兄就比較少那主委本席在上一次約會報告的時候就有建議說我們退伍會在推動職業訓練應該跟我們勞動部還有地方政府來共同來推動"},{"start":84.5,"end":101.77,"text":"那最主要就是讓這些弟兄可以就近的訓練在參加執訓不用大老遠的跑去桃園那今天我們退伍會的報告一段報告裡面有提到說要提供給退伍的軍事官弟兄多元培訓的管道以自身的需求選擇合適訓練課程來提升他的職場技能"},{"start":105.492,"end":120.241,"text":"然後進而促進在地的就業不過本席並沒有看到我們退伍會如果跟勞動部地方政府跟民間企業來共同合作來推動執訓的這些細部成果的資料那主委本席要提醒就是退伍弟兄"},{"start":121.201,"end":150.456,"text":"就本來就不是那麼容易那我想不要再那麼花這些金錢跟時間大老遠跑去桃園授訓我們應該結合地方的一些資源讓在各縣市裡面他可以確實到在地授訓我想這才是真的確實協助到這些弟兄那如果因為你特殊的課程必須到其他的縣市我們退伏隊應該給予他相關的補助嘛讓退伏的弟兄在結訓之後就可以立刻就位主委這可以做得到嗎主委指導委員會請就位處長跟您說明一下"},{"start":151.806,"end":175.19,"text":"委員好 我是就學建業處處長跟您報告沒有錯 委員剛講的我們的職訓的政策包括就業政策都是在地參訓 在地就業那事實上要跟委員報告過去三年我們除了桃園的自辦訓練以外其實我們花東地區跑到那邊去受訓的因為我們有遠地的都免費住宿其實過去三年我們有266個人去那邊參訓有100個是台東的人"},{"start":179.931,"end":187.793,"text":"當然我們很多還有在委外訓練也就是說在花東地區特別在台東地區我們在過去四年其實都有開班也培訓了153個人更重要您剛有提到我對於全國有一萬五千多個班隊我在花東地區其實在過去的三年裡面我們也有533個人去受訓台東也有165個人"},{"start":207.459,"end":232.057,"text":"還有勞動部有兩個分署在那個地方每年都會開這個24個班600個這個數額其實對於花東地區的一個數量基本上我們的調查應該是可以滿足的那因為勞動部來講他也沒有針對跨域的一個資訊來補助今天所以我們目前我們會去關注這個議題 以上我想那個可以跨部會來合作那也請會後"},{"start":233.378,"end":253.413,"text":"把這些相關的跟各機關共同推動這個在地訓練的這個統計資料給本席辦公室讓本席了解到我們這個相關職業訓練的這個後續進行的情況好那另外我要提醒你要請教主委主委你擔任退服會主委之後有沒有到台東去巡視過相關退服會的業務"},{"start":254.494,"end":280.996,"text":"台東有去過 農場還有相關的農家 農福處都去過農福處有 農場也有那本席來跟你就討論就農場這些事情我們的農場的服務品質的部分那來東部旅遊的遊客通常他就會選擇在花蓮或台東晚上住一晚然後隔天選擇北上或南下這個是到花東旅遊的一個模式那台東的經濟產業裡面觀光業占了非常大的一部分"},{"start":281.656,"end":310.552,"text":"那我想只要旅遊的體驗好不好會對地方他影響在發展那個旅遊產業就影響非常大那住宿方不方便 訂房方不方便 交通方不方便這個都影響到旅客願不願意來台東旅遊的一些意願那本市有說到退府會所屬的這個農場近三年來我們的遊憶區的這個營收下滑遊客宿住宿率都在減少那當然退府會的理由是說因為疫情後國人都出國"},{"start":311.272,"end":326.422,"text":"那加上地震、風災這些極端氣候種種因素所以國人比較不願意安排到山林來旅遊那這些本席都可以理解但是在這樣的情況之下我們應該利用這些時間把我們基礎的一些建設還有服務來提升來做好來做準備"},{"start":327.463,"end":351.276,"text":"那推幅會議說要優化我們的呃旅宿環境提升服務品質要在這近四年要在三高三個高商的農場也就是我們福壽山津津還有這武林要投入大概十億元來做刻板的整修那後續要再投入大概至少四點四億元但是本期看池上的這個台東農場有沒有沒有分配到相關的這些優化的資源的經費"},{"start":352.276,"end":376.689,"text":"那明明台東農場他就坐用花東縱谷跟博望大道這個美觀美麗的景觀可是卻沒有獲得這樣的資源的分配那不只如此那我們也發現台東農場下面有幾個據點都還在整修當中像慈善會館台東農場的官網顯示不開放訂房但是我們在民間的訂房平台在booking.com上可以訂得到"},{"start":377.569,"end":405.881,"text":"那東和農場他其實從去年3月就開始顯示一直在維修當中那這兩個據點其實在台東的旅遊上都是非常重要的觀光景點那也可以說台東旅遊上遊客來都必經的幾個地區那我想但是在這上面我看到這些包括在訂房上還有整個維修上我認為這不是一個及格的一個狀況那我想這對台東的觀光影響也很大"},{"start":406.667,"end":413.767,"text":"那另外我們還有發現民眾的反應說受風會館是把這些網路訂房都取消了只能打電話"},{"start":415.323,"end":438.029,"text":"我們直接回到剝竭時代這樣子那我們退輔會你意思說要提升品質然後你一方面服務品質其實不是這麼的便利那這個部分是不是請我解問題來請教主委啦對就是說第一個就是說我們三高農場可以獲得龐大的資源來改善營運那為什麼台東農場這次沒有被納入那相關的規劃的標準是什麼"},{"start":438.829,"end":465.002,"text":"那第二個台東農場的官網什麼時候可以改善讓遊客可以方便的訂房那第三個東河休閒農莊這些整修的據點進度為什麼會拖這麼久還沒完成有沒有明確的完工時間點那第四個未來這些據點整修完之後是不是跟我們的收工會館一樣要建立一個透明公開的訂房機制還是維持現在的模式打電話來訂那這部分是不是可以先來回應一下"},{"start":465.182,"end":489.65,"text":"那我跟委員報告台東方面的觀光這部分多半是委外經營所以在我們預算裡面我也沒有看到那目前經營狀況慈善慈善會館已經完成招商跟整建那二月份迎取的旅館登記證在七月會開始營業那東河龍光是四月一號完成招商在一百一十八年四月開始營業那剛剛委員所提到的還有受風雲"},{"start":490.424,"end":504.231,"text":"你事業處處長跟你說明的是我要指示那個事業處處長董少銘向委員報告有關售豐農場這部分他的網頁還是可以訂購的所以說這個資訊是完整的所以跟委員做以上報告好的"},{"start":506.721,"end":520.253,"text":"包委員我再補充一下我這台東那種廠長有關收風匯款部分因為現在配合那個內政部的那個收風的整個都市計畫變更那現在在爭取旅遊服務區的改變以上先跟委員報告好 謝謝包廠長"},{"start":522.3,"end":532.23,"text":"主委雖然說我們委外有些基礎設施我想還是要投入去經營因為你畢竟投入這麼多的經費我想也能夠平均來分配一下東部這塊的資源我們會檢討相關的資源"},{"start":537.054,"end":557.769,"text":"我想本席認為說越是在挑戰的時候我們越應該要投入更多的資源那讓資源能夠重新的來分配平均那服務也應該要更進步那這對未來不管是在整個我們退補會的經營上面或者是整個台東的觀光我想都是雙贏那也希望這本席提到幾個問題能夠主委這邊能夠來協助是 我們會全力協助謝謝主委 謝謝大家 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168762","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168762","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5880b40c5769f1086fb835ff61ef53f38d440c98c629e733d97b8fcc150d1c9240d0f21f4d974d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"13:26:39 - 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謝謝朝委 是不是請我們這個彭部長有請彭部長李委員好部長好 我今天要來談這個氣候變遷調適裡面的高溫高溫的這個問題從國際到台灣現實面大家都看得很清楚"},{"start":31.132,"end":55.066,"text":"它也不是單純的天氣熱它還包含了公共衛生、勞動安全、城市治理還有能源負擔更重要的還關係到社會不平等交制的複合風險所以這個風險是非常的複合式的那世界衛生組織也指出這個熱的健康衝擊是可預測的"},{"start":56.827,"end":63.911,"text":"且在很大的程度上是可預防的但是呢我們看到WHO在2000到2019年20年間有48.9萬人死於熱相關的原因那亞洲占了45%所以在亞洲裡面因為熱高溫這個調適上的問題這個危害的風險可能更勝於其他的國家的"},{"start":84.964,"end":97.387,"text":"而且現在大家都知道65歲以上的族群的熱相關的死亡率相較於2000年代的初期已經很顯著的在上升那世界氣象組織則確認2024年是175年有觀測記錄以來最熱的一年"},{"start":106.26,"end":127.008,"text":"那我們的國家災害防救中心TCCIP已經指出1910到2020年間6個有百年監測站有歷史的這6個裡面夏季平均最高溫和高溫指標天數整體都上升"},{"start":128.369,"end":142.76,"text":"那極端高溫的事件的等級頻率面積還有持續的天數都非常明顯的在增加那高溫盛行的季節還出現提早發生延後結束的趨勢"},{"start":144.221,"end":169.393,"text":"那如果全球暖化持續升高三度的話極端高溫的強度跟持續時間大概可以達到兩度C暖化情境的兩倍提高三度是兩度的不是一增加一度是兩倍換句話說不是今年比較熱而已而是高溫風險本身正在重寫台灣的季節結構還有風險的分布"},{"start":172.754,"end":179.457,"text":"可是就是說這也不是一個抽象的概念因為大家都知道這個國建署也經常在講這個熱傷害熱危害那事實上WHO跟WMO他們在2025年也發布了一些報告"},{"start":191.483,"end":209.566,"text":"極端高溫對室內還有對戶外的工作者都是顯著的風險所以熱傷害不是只發生在戶外室內的悶熱的環境長者慢性疾病行動不便通通都是高風險的族群所以在這種狀況裡面全球24億的勞工71%的勞動人口都暴露在過熱的風險當中那偏偏"},{"start":220.708,"end":227.474,"text":"氣候變遷因應法他在這個地方的主管機關就是你們"},{"start":229.525,"end":249.759,"text":"所以這個環境部他不是旁觀者而是這一套體系你必須去整合的整合者主管機關就是你們那你們重點這個這樣還不夠是你自己也明顯的你們就自己揭示了你們也公開承諾了"},{"start":251.46,"end":270.001,"text":"你們的公開承諾就是說有一個抗高溫調適專區你們抗高溫有一個調適行動的路徑你們告訴大家說我們有兩項制度 兩項方法 兩項拓展"},{"start":271.002,"end":293.563,"text":"所以在去年 你們建立了共通性的高溫指標要建立這個 根據共通性高溫指標要啟動跨部會 跨層級的抗高溫應變機制你們去年這樣對大家講說 我要做這些這些"},{"start":295.004,"end":297.57,"text":"所以你們也找了 找雙北去試辦高溫調適的對策演練試辦裡面 你們也建置了cool map"},{"start":305.859,"end":332.471,"text":"你們的涼爽地圖啦那你們也訂了115年研擬企業抗高溫行動指引那你們也跟台南市合作了以跨部會資料串聯的辨識能源弱勢能源弱勢的老人 譬如說啦中低收入戶 欠電的啦 不敢開的啦獨居的老人啦 等等啦所以你們去辨識誰是能源弱勢嘛"},{"start":333.973,"end":342.839,"text":"而且你們說我們未來要建立常態性的資料你們要去更新警示通報評估機制你們也講說這個台灣對颱風已經有完整的應變機制但是對熱浪還沒有所以你們要整合去你自己說"},{"start":354.446,"end":372.92,"text":"我要去整合氣象署 勞動部 衛福部既有的資訊做起要建立共通性高溫指標共通性高溫指標而且要事半調適演練這個都是你們自己說的博定你知道嗎是啊 就是我們去年有在做這些工作"},{"start":373.44,"end":388.458,"text":"現在你說行動先行制度建構第二科學後援要打造全台高溫韌性網路你們的共通性高溫指標出來了嗎目前我們是有三個指標勞動部一個"},{"start":389.659,"end":412.57,"text":"然後中研院WGBT一個還有一個氣象署的這個熱的指標那因為氣象署的那個溫度雖然沒有考慮到濕度但是他有體感所以相對的是直接的所以目前我們的那個指標大家的共同意見因為各部位還是有他自己原來現在還是三個啦那你講要建立一個共通性的高溫指標還沒建立好"},{"start":413.05,"end":437.704,"text":"基本上我們出來的時候一個溫度出來都有三個都在那個地方因為這三個意義不大一樣所以就這樣建制完成了還沒有還沒有還沒有所以你們的共同性高溫指標的文本你們還沒有對外公告那分級的架構啟動的門檻跨部會的責任表那你們還沒有你現在是還在什麼狀況包委員這個要一步一步來因為這個"},{"start":438.544,"end":460.894,"text":"跟符合你們自己的期程嗎?建制的期程嗎?因為這個東西是配合我們國家的調適行動綱領的計畫每四年一次所以我們原來的這個是今年年底結束所以我們現在要把高溫列入明年開始啟動的所以目前我們這兩次我都是拿這個嚴重高溫的樣態來做延煉我們到底缺了什麼?"},{"start":461.394,"end":474.97,"text":"所以也不瞞各位委員說其實這個調試很多都是一個概念真的要做的時候發現沒有在做所以我們用新的方法特別針對高溫用一些方法來測試大概所有部會可以融合到什麼程度"},{"start":475.621,"end":484.166,"text":"對啊那所以你意思是說到年底以前應該就會訂出來我們現在今年針對今年的夏天也會開始演練例如說演練到40度我要提醒部長這個事情不是只有高溫的燈號現在你要做的是調適治理那就不是把氣象的燈號或者是再加上一個濕度來當成治理的目標而是要回答我們"},{"start":503.456,"end":516.86,"text":"健康 勞動 教育都市空間 交通 社福等不同領域是不是需要不同的啟動門檻跟應變的邏輯否則同樣一個38度C對工地勞工 對長照機構 對學校對能源弱勢的獨居的長者對都市熱島區的意義根本都不一樣那根據英國的熱健康警報他就"},{"start":532.924,"end":560.013,"text":"它就不是一個單純的氣象警報他們英國健康安全局跟氣象局他們就共同運作一個天氣健康警報系統提供健康和社會照顧相關的部門使用英國政府的不良天氣跟健康計畫這個明確的指出這一套的天氣健康警報是該計畫的核心支柱之一那據此"},{"start":560.393,"end":584.792,"text":"去推動各級架構在服務提供能力培養早期預警和資料分析等面向的常態工作所以這個架構之下英國健康安全署每年發布熱相關的死亡報告監測把極端高溫期間的超額死亡統計對天氣跟健康的衝擊分析納入例行性的監測跟政策這個"},{"start":586.713,"end":607.385,"text":"作業所以這個做法的重點就不是說告訴大家說今天冷熱溼度有多高溫度有多高而是要驅動醫療照護要驅動社會福利地方政府和社區網路要及早啟動行動要透過制度化的監測跟資料分析然後最重點是要開始"},{"start":609.046,"end":630.883,"text":"進行這一些調整這一些行動策略那你們還沒有還在跨機關的討論其實我們已經啟動一個研究計畫我們找中研院的團隊然後運用衛福部的健保數據庫然後實際上的溫度會產生多大的健康的衝擊從健保資料庫拿到更科學的這個證據不然的話到底要幾度有什麼辦法我們已經啟動研究研究然後"},{"start":637.248,"end":643.716,"text":"對我們要從數據才能夠數據然後研究嘛那我們現在期待是看到你調適政策調適計畫調適行動出來是你現在談不上調適的政策和調適的"},{"start":652.506,"end":668.123,"text":"計畫你也沒有去整合各部位整個調適的行動綱領要怎麼行動我們現在最上位例如說我們的溫度幾度對於我們每一個年齡的國人有什麼樣的衝擊這是基本研究而已我們目前連這個都沒有這個是基本研究我們國家連這個都沒有但是我們講的是說你其實有在做啊"},{"start":672.728,"end":687.725,"text":"你們有一個抗高溫調適專區嘛然後你們去年首度試辦了114年度抗高溫調適對策演練喔有啦 你有在做你去找各部會 中央部會16個單位 16個部會"},{"start":690.968,"end":705.097,"text":"然後找了台北市新北市參與地方政府兩個地方政府那你們做了一個調適對策的演練你知道嗎演練是我有參加你有參加喔可是這演練就是閉門會議301301會議是聯合演練看到你們的演練情形就是參與單位16個中央部會兩個地方政府然後開一個會腳本式的桌上推演"},{"start":720.461,"end":747.219,"text":"然後不是真正的拿測試制度是否可操作的是否為可操作的壓力測試型演練啊你們就自己說這個桌上談兵啦然後有腳本當然有長官致詞合照啦灑水車照相做新聞稿啦但是我們很難看得出來就是說我們第一次啦這是第一次這樣做你們是把既有的業務跟宣導措施然後大家流水"},{"start":748.54,"end":770.753,"text":"報告一次啊大家各部會各地方政府流水洗次的報告一次啊那就花了兩個小時了三個小時了啦但真正的演練不是這樣子我們希望你看出說透過演練要驗證各個部會哪些跨部會的應變機制是有缺失的那要測試這一些制度的斷點是什麼所以"},{"start":772.734,"end":795.01,"text":"在這種狀況裡面要形成正式的高溫應變的SOP那在這種演練以後要產出完整的檢討報告缺失清單改善時程責任分工你們就是這樣子演練其實你們那個應該是大家討論可是你把它叫成演練了所以我們看起來你就像是在跨部會的在有一個應變的機制的"},{"start":800.049,"end":806.296,"text":"原模擬可是看起來不是各自報告各自的業務作業所以在這種狀況裡面"},{"start":808.328,"end":834.531,"text":"其實是沒有辦法測出真正的制度的問題這個資訊的傳遞有沒有延遲地方政府的執行有沒有落差你的糧食點是不是有足夠你能源脆弱或是一般普通脆弱的族群名單是不是完整跨部會的選擇是不是清楚地方跟中央的啟動條件是不是一致 有嗎"},{"start":835.792,"end":849.621,"text":"這個一步一步來啦那個是我們第一次這樣做而且只針對38我本來要求要40度啦但是目前呢我相信這個第一次之後今年我們在演練的時候會更加明確台灣曾經出現過40度的地方在哪裡雙北"},{"start":852.699,"end":871.475,"text":"所以現在你只演練雙北其實未來的六都都有可能有機會啦那其實事實上未來我們會但我是要告訴你說相對全台灣的其他各地方其實雙北的行政量能是比較高的資源也比較多的公共設施也比較完整的所以他的熱浪應變的基礎應該也會"},{"start":875.37,"end":878.454,"text":"比較相對有能力的那資源比較少的熱風險類型不同的人口結構比較脆弱的老人可能比較多的可能是農業縣市的沿海工業區的原鄉的高齡比例比較高的地區可能才更需要你們啦"},{"start":892.611,"end":908.281,"text":"所以應該以後是要納入這一些那你的cool mapcool map你的治理工具它很像只是一個資訊平台你要告訴大家說如果你很熱熱浪來襲我有一個cool map這cool map它的"},{"start":910.323,"end":935.064,"text":"首波整合的雙北還有台南2400個糧食點提供500公尺內的糧食點查詢包含戶外有遮蔭降溫的這個設施室內有涼爽簡單來講就是冷氣啦有座位啦有冷氣有飲用水你們自己寫的有廁所啦有無障礙設施的而且大部分都是便利商店啦還有公部門的場所"},{"start":936.525,"end":942.696,"text":"但是我的意思是說其實住在家的人可能比你更知道家裡有冷氣不用洗的啦"},{"start":944.395,"end":968.846,"text":"你用這個cool map 那個意義 它要沖下啦你的cool map 應該是要成為一種治理的工具它不是打開地圖找哪裡有冷氣它比較像是資訊服務如果它連結的 應該是有地方高溫的應變避暑空間的開放 脆弱族群的主動關懷社福的轉介 避暑動線的規劃"},{"start":971.067,"end":989.311,"text":"讓它成為一種治理的工具而不是說看哪裡有冷氣有廁所一步一步來啦因為我們針對南部也有針對老人獨有獨居長者作行測試我們目標就是未來要把這個全面連結在一起對啦所以我現在建議你說你要跟地方政府的高溫應變計畫社福長照的系統李林的關懷網絡整合"},{"start":994.352,"end":998.356,"text":"那在統計 你在使用上要統計人次導流的成效區域的落差 合作據點的開放率要盤點高風險行政區但仍缺乏足夠的糧食點的要去把它建構出來要不然這裡就只是一個cool map應該是比較可惜啦那跨部會去搜尋"},{"start":1015.971,"end":1040.502,"text":"需要優先幫忙的對象辨識能源的弱勢然後減輕能源支出負擔優先設置這個避暑的地點應該是這樣子去做才是比較好的cool map那在這裡其實我是要跟你講說因為這一些就剛好氣候變遷因應法這裡面講得很清楚"},{"start":1041.741,"end":1065.514,"text":"第17條第8款政府應強化脆弱群體因應氣候變遷衝擊的能力而這個就是環境部的法定的責任所以你們公布的氣候變遷風險評估的作業準則也把危害度然後暴露度脆弱度高風險地區調適的差距都納入了制度了所以民間團體也點出說這個"},{"start":1068.596,"end":1083.123,"text":"高溫調適論壇裡面講說老舊城區綠地錯置居住條件不良跟社會弱勢正在讓部分地區變成高溫調適這個高溫調適的孤島啦所以有些"},{"start":1084.324,"end":1089.328,"text":"高溫狀況裡面牽扯到很多的社會不平等真的是所以你看起來熱危害其實也有社會不平等的成分在裡面而這個社會不平等就是政府要去做把這個社會不平等資源的弱勢的然後健康的弱勢的或者是說別無選擇的那個政府的資源和能力介入進去把這個社會不平等差距縮小"},{"start":1113.925,"end":1128.441,"text":"那讓這個高溫危害的地區高溫危害的高風險的族群他們透過政府資源的介入可以把這個不平等差距縮小這個是很重要的如果照去年做的是不夠的"},{"start":1129.402,"end":1149.277,"text":"這個要連結起來啦那也跟委員報告因為過去這個調適的經費在政府裡面是真的沒有特別去匡列人員也不夠現在開始要了對對對你今年編的預算增長多少碳費有啦碳費未來會來做調適以前都真的都沒有啦好OK好謝謝委員謝謝謝謝林淑芬委員"}]}},{"id":"168687","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168687","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5880b40c5769f101880f3b3606481df38d440c98c629e7dfea45507174d0799ec90fcc29cae8b75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖偉翔","委員發言時間":"09:54:23 - 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對吧那我就想要請問一下這樣子的單一廠商可以佔據三成四的這個餘電共生的發電量難道你們不會覺得很奇怪嗎"},{"start":266.567,"end":285.497,"text":"跟委員報告那個別的業者的部分他在做一些暗場的一些規劃的過程當中他是會用個別的一個公司來做處理那剛委員提到所以這家個別公司主要是因為那我在那我在請教因為剛我已經講就沒有了你後面的解釋都沒有回答我的問題"},{"start":286.457,"end":303.352,"text":"再請教那原定的這個4.4GW也就是全年的53.9億度電的目標誠心暗示目前光電占比最重要的類別想要請教一下它實際併網量是多少那換算成年度發電量又是多少度"},{"start":304.349,"end":327.023,"text":"那是不是也可能代表這個的案場如果沒有的話你們確定可以應該就是確定跳票吧20%的部分跟委員報告剛委員的簡報很清楚4.4Gbps的部分是目前的缺口太陽光電已經做15Gbps多左右4.44Gbps目前缺口魚電魚電的部分目前大概是1到2Gbps的部分"},{"start":327.543,"end":335.69,"text":"各別業者正在做一些農業相關的一些容許使用的一些規劃以目前來看所以這個案場他如果跳票的話你們是不是達不到目標"},{"start":336.765,"end":361.553,"text":"呃 達不到目標 不過就是會用對嘛 你說達不到目標嘛 對不對會用一些屋頂型的暗場那 我是針對這個暗場因為它佔的量體很大那它現在跳票 你等於就是跳票嘛你剛才也說會跳票嘛 對不對那我想要請教一下那這五大台灣最大型的漁電共生的暗場目前大約有三百個案子的暗場目前你們達到你們綠能二階容許也就是放養七成的這個養殖達標的暗場有幾個"},{"start":364.028,"end":380.517,"text":"跟委員說明就以個別在螢幕上這個案場來看這個120Mbps他已經符合相關的規定不過有一些案場下面的一些案場他還在做一些農業容許的一些相關的審核部分我是想問說你們放養七成的這個標準你的養殖達標的案場有幾個有幾個"},{"start":382.23,"end":400.281,"text":"目前大概有個別的案場如果以第一型來看的話只有一個是不符合相關的一些規定被聯約署來做廢照的動作其他部分的話比較小型第三型案場相對就比較少一點可是我根據上下游新聞在2025年的6月的報導看起來好像"},{"start":401.314,"end":430.752,"text":"真正符合的好像也只有一個沒有啦七成的部分個別的案場因為他有一些符合案子那媒體報導是針對一些審計單位他認為不符合的一些現象有一些處理好第一個你剛剛說基本上這個這個誠心集團的如果跳票就是你們就是目標會跳票嘛所以我想要講的是綠能不只是環境問題其實他也是貿易競爭力對不對所以政府推動能源轉型其實核心在於支撐"},{"start":431.452,"end":449.265,"text":"很多半導體業的RA100的需求跟符合國際的碳邊境調整機制CBAN的部分那誠心跟台積電有200億度綠電的合約也是在支撐台灣出口競爭力的重要支柱那原訂這個案件2025年就在你們的達標範圍這也攸關你們20%的綠能有沒有辦法達標嘛 對不對那你們今年也承諾綠能20%的進度會在今年"},{"start":459.873,"end":480.527,"text":"11月達標所以目前依照你們的估計這些五大案場最快什麼時候可以上線跟委員報告就是說以目前國內的企業需要綠電的部分他除了這個漁電工生以外他還有一些離岸風電的風場這我都知道我現在就是在跟你討論這個漁電工生好不好你這個漁電工生現在這個你剛剛也說這個會跳票嘛這個如果沒辦法順利完成的話"},{"start":484.13,"end":488.596,"text":"所以我現在問的問題就是依照現在的這個狀況那你們本來說綠能20%的進度今年11月打標想要問一下依照現在的發生的狀況你們估計這五大案場什麼時候可以上線然後剛剛你已經說可能不會打標是嗎"},{"start":501.072,"end":520.312,"text":"應該是這麼說 跟委員報告這個五個案場目前正在做一些綠能容許的一些程序那時間點要跟地方政府來做一些養殖方面的一些規劃所以我說預計你們大概什麼時候上線目標的部分的話會由其他的屋頂型的案場來做彌補所以還是會希望能夠達到20G的目標"},{"start":521.793,"end":540.768,"text":"所以你說這個案子就算沒有辦法順利,你們還是可以達標囉?你確定可以達標嗎?我們會以這個目標為主,但是我說你們覺得可以嗎?我們會以20GB的目標來做處理,不過剛談的,因為有一些法令的改變,我們要去把這些法令的改變來做一些處理。"},{"start":541.969,"end":562.898,"text":"我要跟你說這個案場其實剛剛我講的誠心集團這個案場它其實涉及了數十個銀行的聯合貸款底下還有無數的小企業據傳欠款高達十億元甚至已經算入你們的國家能源政策比重裡面的重要一環結果你剛剛有點說我會用光電其他的光電來彌補問題是這個案場"},{"start":565.379,"end":574.287,"text":"最重要的是也已經開發了那所以導致現在我想要問的事情就是說那這個到底可不可以完成你這個案場它現在的狀況可不可以完成"},{"start":575.083,"end":595.214,"text":"跟我們比較關心的是這個案場什麼時間完成那這個案場主要就是卡在一些所謂的農業容許使用的一些程序的部分他現在做一些改善所以他可以因為我其實關心的不是這個單一案場我關心的事情是你到底可不可以達標我用這個案場來比喻因為他的量體是很大的"},{"start":595.914,"end":606.281,"text":"所以我想要講的事情是很奇怪的是2022年的晨星集團發新聞稿說他幫旗下這個新核能源完成了56.4億的連帶案但是在2026年的時候卻發文表示說"},{"start":611.604,"end":624.892,"text":"這誠心綠能從未承接新和能源的業務新和能源案場的現況進度財務糾紛都跟這個公司沒有就都沒有關係請問一下你們有掌握這樣的狀況嗎那他背後的權責是否會釐清會不會影響到我們所謂的這個綠能發展的進度"},{"start":631.235,"end":658.904,"text":"跟委員報告個別的案場他的一些內部的一些財務的狀況這個我們大概不再做了解那以這個案場的部分我們有去了解邀請的所有這些所謂的連帶銀行相關的業者去了解他們對這個案場的一些相關的進度那怎麼樣讓他包含這個銀行端的部分包含這種所謂的下游端的一些承包業者的一些部分怎麼樣來儘速拿到相關的資金這部分有在處理當中"},{"start":659.364,"end":678.661,"text":"在處理當中所以他會有問題嗎?不知道這個要看後續你沒有在掌握我們在持續掌握這個個別案場的部分不過要了解他未來在做所謂的容許養殖的相關的進度好那請農業部的代表好不好我請一下農業部資源永續利用時的代理司長"},{"start":686.198,"end":709.347,"text":"黃市長對我們一起一起回答看是屬於屬於誰可以理解的因為我請你上來那我還是要問一下這個經濟部在去年的2025年3月的時候有同意室內型的餘電得回歸農政的法規必須取得二階綠能容許才能與台電並往對吧那然後過去已經並聯發電上百件的"},{"start":711.468,"end":723.518,"text":"面積數百公頃的漁電案場你們回頭的核查率是多少那目前上百件的面積數百公頃的漁電案場會不會有漏網之魚卻沒有人負責"},{"start":725.555,"end":752.879,"text":"好 那會長會員那基本上餘電公升的查核目前298場的部分大概查核的部分大概250多場的部分其中大概廢止的部分35場的容許那其餘的部分基本上有些是正在包含也許會改善的部分以及查核通過的部分那大致上"},{"start":753.859,"end":774.568,"text":"都符合一些規定不過就是說有一些需要是因為現場可能一些所以是多少具體的數字你知道嗎實際它大概八成多八塊將近九成多的部分對那其他部分是地方還有一些要再做確認的部分我想要請問一下這個今年的時候三月你們的態度官方的態度也大幅的轉變所以轉往魚歸魚電歸電的政策方向"},{"start":777.639,"end":783.003,"text":"那這個官方證實漁電共生的新制草案卻由漁業署能源署光電工協會研擬中且也有與養殖團體討論那新制的草案呢這個改採漁業經營跟光電經營分離請問然後光電業者只要依規範設置即可不再複製"},{"start":800.918,"end":828.059,"text":"養殖經營責任即可取得發電收益以上敘述是否正確?那我剛剛討論到這個新的這個樣的案場也會這樣處理嗎?跟委員報告我想先澄清一下我想餘電共生基本上還是以餘熱本養殖的為本然後預能加值的部分這個原則是都沒有變的那我們強調的是還是餘電做所謂的專業分工那養殖還餘電共生還是必須要有所謂的相關的養殖經營的一個事實的部分"},{"start":828.539,"end":843.767,"text":"那專業分工就是說它基本上設置太陽光電的部分是能夠對我們養殖的相關產業能夠轉型提升的所以這並沒有所謂說今天就放棄養殖這個部分是要澄清外界可能比較對這一部分做有所得如果這個養殖經營跟投資跟這個風險如果落在這個漁業署養鞋或者漁卿或者養殖戶的身上"},{"start":849.87,"end":864.085,"text":"那我來想問的事情是說那大家都知道種電的利益大那養殖的利益小這樣會不會導致這個法規不明確的情況之下會讓這些養殖的面積不停的萎縮然後會不會發生這件事情你可以保證不會嗎"},{"start":865.246,"end":884.919,"text":"我想應該不會的啦那我們有強調是綠能是來加值產業的轉型升級那基本上我們還是要確保它實際有養殖的這件事情那所以我們就要把之前有一些可能設置光電業者以所謂光電極大化的部分去做一個所謂的合理的設置配置讓我們的養殖產業還是能夠持續的"},{"start":885.219,"end":904.043,"text":"好我要跟你們說其實我們支持這樣子的能源轉型要發展的好可是絕對不支持毀農滅魚的假轉型好所以不要為了保住你們的所謂的病亡的目標然後就犧牲法治或者是農地的一個公道好不好這不會好謝謝好謝謝廖偉祥委員發言"}]}},{"id":"168685","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168685","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5880b40c5769f12c07129570dabd0f10d96ca025fdcb7cdfea45507174d0799ec90fcc29cae8b75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"魯明哲","委員發言時間":"09:50:35 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謝謝主席有請我們這個NCC陳代理主委還有數位部 今天部長來好 我們請陳主委 也請林部長"},{"start":22.535,"end":40.883,"text":"其實接續因為上次本來要問我們林部長但是因為時間不夠今天正好兩位都在一起因為那天我們林部長特別說上個月月底這個月初集體台灣非常多的LINE的用戶"},{"start":42.303,"end":66.515,"text":"帳戶消失了然後我記得當天的林部長特別說是兩個小問題就是LINE發生了有一個小問題然後台灣大哥大不管是語音信箱的小問題兩個小問題加起來變一個大漏洞那這樣的一個情況當然那故事我就不講了那怎麼樣進入在觸發了這個電信業者的這個"},{"start":69.477,"end":75.147,"text":"他原本的預設的一個密碼我想請問一下先問一下我們陳代理主委"},{"start":76.921,"end":105.189,"text":"這個因為當天我覺得看到數位部的新聞檔有請教你們你們對於不光是這件事情發生的整個三大電信業者都有做一個盤點嗎有當天我們立刻都通知三大電信業者做一些風險的一些指示都是很多立刻都把雲雲新加的那些功能都關掉那後來陸陸續續都把這個預設密碼還有這個全部都關掉變成說一定要回去改掉原來密碼才可以"},{"start":106.53,"end":121.669,"text":"這是當天的第一個動作那第二個動作我們也請電信偵查大隊請他去LINE那邊了解背後有沒有什麼炸團的一些順便去蒐集一些情資來做後續的一些follow up"},{"start":121.829,"end":143.367,"text":"不過這個要跟主委特別提醒一下針對於這些業者 我要坦白講因為現在不管是不管要詐騙的這種電腦的駭客的概念他們就在那邊推陳出新所以今天當然發生一件事你再盤點一件事我真的是覺得你們兩個相關主管單位我覺得也要要求這些業者"},{"start":145.308,"end":161.435,"text":"你要這種能夠往前的一個管理尤其對於資訊安全自己的安全的一個部分我覺得這個很重要那再來就是部長部長其實這個事情發生到現在我一直碰到很多當天的受害者你知道嗎但我覺得"},{"start":162.695,"end":175.574,"text":"這很奇怪你覺得你寫了一輩子的日記裡面有你十年的日記這個是千金難換的然後放在一個很保險的地方結果他密碼被偷了然後說解決好了都沒問題了"},{"start":177.637,"end":195.168,"text":"然後還你一本空白的日記說我解決了 OK你傳了十幾年的相片用相片寫日記但現在LINE的基本功能真的很多人生活就是這樣的連這個人電話都沒有他的好友五千位裡面有三千位完全沒有電話的啦"},{"start":196.469,"end":222.669,"text":"趴著他丟新的電話簿空拍丟給你我處理囉 我LINE處理了我覺得這個有點離譜因為我碰到一堆三四個草吻重新加LINE了他這個苦啊 他說這莫名其妙啊也沒人說聲道歉啊 不知道幹什麼啊就一個個加五千萬的朋友他現在加到一千多位了可是我覺得造成的困難非常嚴重就這樣就結束了是不是 你覺得"},{"start":223.77,"end":240.755,"text":"我覺得這個LINE在這部分處理不是很好應該那我們也是跟他們溝通過因為這個是基本上他們是一個商業的服務他這個事情他應該是考慮到那個客戶的這些想法那因為那個LINE他當然他的說法是說他擔心是"},{"start":241.275,"end":256.942,"text":"那個中間在盜用的過程中那個盜用的人他把裡面加入了什麼訊息什麼什麼他這種講法那因為我們其實我們跟我們速發部跟LINE溝通我們有時候也是覺得說非常的辛苦因為日本人總是那個第一個做事比較謹慎一點我們這樣講比較比較不會那個就是說"},{"start":260.504,"end":279.377,"text":"那個日本人就做事很謹慎很謹慎那相對的就是很慢很慢然後什麼事情就是想這個想那個那我們會作為書發部我們是個主管計畫我們會督促他們想辦法就是幫那個客戶這我覺得這都需要跟他溝通啦我的朋友名字你也不還我對不對有些其實"},{"start":280.658,"end":302.047,"text":"在整個害的過程中他的權利我的密碼被他偷了是別人去登陸我的基地我的資訊裡面可是你在解決完這個之後我的資訊很多根本還在只是因為你覺得很忙算了有可能有危險可是對人家來講是半輩子的記憶朋友我倒是覺得在這要溝通一下如果說"},{"start":304.009,"end":315.222,"text":"我是這個被盜的我願意負責啊你照片還我照片給我怎麼樣好啦就算你你檔案還給我不是從LINE的這個角度也要有一個機制嘛怎麼可以這樣的我是覺得希望能夠藉這個機會溝通一下是"},{"start":318.745,"end":343.242,"text":"那也請委員多幫忙因為有時候那個LINE會是說是因為日本他的那個政府的一些相關法規等等那如果我們能透過那種像說那個國會外交的方式去跟日本政府溝通一下讓LINE可以有這個一些比較法律上的鬆綁讓他可以處理得快一點不要說這每件事情不錯不錯部長你把球都給我們了謝謝我們未來有努力最後一個問題問一下我們陳主委是可是我要請教一個問題"},{"start":348.965,"end":360.874,"text":"那天很多的媒體包括電視也都報導他說台灣大哥大當天的客戶是主要受災戶的一個群體其中發現原來的台灣這些用戶最慘"},{"start":363.956,"end":380.033,"text":"那我就覺得你們當然處理了嘛預設密碼直接接客服嘛我知道嘛可是你都沒有想一件事是誰為什麼我有這麼多的客戶他是只有在我台灣大哥大裡面的從前一年"},{"start":381.254,"end":401.027,"text":"過來的台灣之星客戶就表示如果有一個駭客他已經知道哪些是台灣之星這有指標性的有標籤性的他根本知道裡面的資料你覺得這有沒有特定資料外洩的這樣的疑慮啊你聽到你看到這個新聞還是經過你查不是這樣這個很奇怪喔"},{"start":402.168,"end":420.343,"text":"台灣大哥大這麼多的客戶群體舉個例子喔你所有的大哥大裡面只有女性的是要被騷擾他怎麼去辨別一個門號是男性還是女性他怎麼辨別是源台灣之星所以我覺得最有可能是源台灣之星的團體"},{"start":422.445,"end":439.176,"text":"發生了問題把這個資料露出去了要不然就是台灣大哥大在接駁的這個半年不到半年之間發生問題這部分你有沒有想到有沒有去了解一下為什麼有一個特定的群體到底我跟你都沒辦法判別"},{"start":440.057,"end":460.045,"text":"台灣大哥大給我一個電話請問一下他是台灣之星的台灣之星客戶還是原本是台灣大哥大我們怎麼會知道嘛這個部分你要不要去查一下了解一下所以剛剛跟委員報告說我們請電信隊去做後續的一些找一些蛛絲馬跡看看有沒有後續的相關一些進一步的一些調查"},{"start":460.805,"end":464.307,"text":"我覺得這個事情還是要盡量搞清楚嘛是原來就只要在台灣之星階段就已經外洩了還是在這個那再來這個事情要整個做我們所有幾大電信都體檢一下好不好就這樣沒問題謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168675","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168675","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5880b40c5769f1dddb90665eb4dc80f38d440c98c629e729d978cd518bf594ac6f5c410dd661785ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳菁徽","委員發言時間":"09:41:57 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彭部長這位好"},{"start":16.653,"end":45.535,"text":"好部長你每次的口頭還有書面報告其實我都很認真聽這是你第三次使用AI了但你剛有提到說環境部今年也預計要大量使用AI我覺得善用是非常好的而且鼓勵公部門帶頭但是因為我已經看到第三次所以不得不今天要提出來我現在圈起來的請您看一下您自己的報告你自己會看過嗎第二窮國太窮災害的什麼變你看得出來是什麼字嗎"},{"start":46.867,"end":72.291,"text":"抱歉委員這個是我自己親自做的啦那有一些我沒有檢查因為最後是我自己做加進去的可能同仁都沒有看過那我自己代表向你致歉好那你看一下三因為我其實我也很喜歡你做的報告我也想知道你想表達什麼意思但是像三公共設施的什麼入費只有少私投資滴滴你這個你是想要表達民間企業投資的太少是不是"},{"start":73.212,"end":93.749,"text":"調試因為它不像減碳一樣有一個明確的效益特別是碳定價調試沒有調試價所以民間基本上沒有人要投資調試的工作那第四個你說人才留不住官員換住其實基本上這個調試沒有一個專業是做這個事所以我們也沒有一個很好的單位在處理這個事"},{"start":95.322,"end":114.289,"text":"好因為我第三次看你的報告那之前也是你可以回去看那我覺得很重要是因為你們每次的報告都會在放上你們的官網那一般的民眾也會去閱讀所以他會不知道你到底想要表達什麼可是都很精美我是具體建議啦您之後可能也許你就是把它做的稍微簡單一點或是教對"},{"start":116.49,"end":140.102,"text":"因為委員這個是我到昨天晚上自己都還在做我把它修改的那我可能時間來不及我看得出來因為前兩次的我也都有看只是前兩次已經發生過很多次了所以今天就先提醒你禮拜一的時候有個大新聞然後也蠻多人重視我自己也覺得如果你是真的要做的話蠻有感的你有講到說如果通勤然後中間都有綠狼到"},{"start":141.603,"end":160.049,"text":"來做降溫這樣你就從家裡出發到上班地方都可以退燒但是呢今天要講很多人在質疑的一個問題可是你禮拜一這個頭版都做得很大今天的書面報告沒有口頭報告也沒有你說你要提出十年都市零這樣子的願景"},{"start":160.569,"end":186.98,"text":"那我是擔心成為下面公務人員壓力因為看起來沒有法院也沒有預算我很怕又淪為上次你講說偏偏有序號可是到最後經濟部直接說沒有辦法有序號做不到那今天我們就來實際的探討一下如果你要做十年的都市領可能會遇到什麼問題那我也希望可以聽到你初步的解決方法畢竟你八天後是不是要跟國家氣候變遷委員會來提出你的計畫嗎對不對是"},{"start":189.781,"end":211.7,"text":"八天後是是好那我們首先來看一下很多人就在想啊這個東西牽涉的是六都還牽涉了至少六個部會好目前這個是六都他們目前提出的照齡政策那看起來就是欸如果我很在意或者是我預算足夠我就會多做一點所以後面的KPI全部都不一樣欸"},{"start":213.086,"end":227.926,"text":"那現在給補助的是林業署嘛那你之後這個十年都市林你會讓每一個都市有具體一樣的目標嗎包圍了其實第一個是都市林是沒有一個權責單位在負責這些都是地方"},{"start":228.126,"end":255.895,"text":"政府自己拿自己的錢在做所以基本上他們對於樹的了解跟樹的盤查其實整個都不夠所以目前我們早就發現看到這個問題因為我們的林保署是負責森林這個今天你提到的叫都市林那目前的確是沒有一個單位負責這個所有景觀的部分在處理所以為什麼說我們要提出來新的做法不過新的做法我們也要報行政院現在還在這個程序當中我們希望30號以前可以提出一個更完整的一個方案"},{"start":256.175,"end":284.725,"text":"好那我們看一下這張這張就是你剛在講的農業部看起來就是現在主責照領的部會但當然你剛說對於樹的瞭解什麼的農業部我相信他們那邊有人才可以做到你剛講的事情那內政部呢是在做都市規劃決定這個都市裡面綠化的制度那工程會是在講公共工程的植樹專區教育部負責校園裡面的樹那交通部就是你前幾天在新聞講的"},{"start":285.985,"end":301.607,"text":"如果有這個道路的綠廊道等等的跟你新聞的東西有點重複那看起來現在主責是農業部你現在中央到地方每個人都在做不同的事情請問你具體是要怎麼統整起來我們想聽你"},{"start":303.188,"end":328.614,"text":"這個八天後要報告你是要怎麼做統整八天後我們會有端出來啊現在因為我們還在規劃基本上我們還必須要按照一個程序因為這是一個跨部會要中央層級來共同推動的事那未來呢也不排除要有法規還有有專責的組織還有固定的一個預算所以委員還容許給我多一點時間你現在現在我不方便說太多但是我們已經都準備好了你提到的問題我們都講過了"},{"start":330.514,"end":352.619,"text":"好雖然你今天沒有辦法回答但是我只好也跟你講我找到一些資料然後我們還是可以進行一些對話那當然這個是在講說我們比起WHO建議的綠地每個人的平均平方公尺是不足的那有研究發現綠地如果足夠的話幸福感會增加自殺率啊犯罪率等等都會下降嘛那你剛剛有講到說"},{"start":355.861,"end":378.478,"text":"這個其他部會有在主責我也去翻了這個你應該也知道吧農業部他有一個戰略計畫他一路規劃到2050年裡面有一大的部分也在講說他要發展營造都市林他有編預算從2025年一直到2030年每一年都會編將近13億那跟你的這個10年都市林你未來也會想要把它整合在一起嗎"},{"start":379.838,"end":395.809,"text":"不過委員你知道林保署他是負責森林他並沒有特別強化這個都市林因為他們的人力還有預算的限制並沒有包含的都市林那目前都市林的確在所有的政府分工裡面都屬於地方政府在推動的事情"},{"start":397.247,"end":414.185,"text":"我是想講因為你剛已經講到了嘛所以我也想講說我想要給你的建議啦這個以日本為例但你剛也有講到修法的部分日本他就是在1973年的時候正式的成立這個法源依據的都市綠地法所以他是由中央"},{"start":414.665,"end":419.948,"text":"也就是類似您這樣子的角色來制定綠的基本方針然後地方政府去做綠的推廣計畫納入城市規劃的基準所以你看到它左邊的圖它可能有綠的骨幹然後屋頂上的綠化公開綠地等等的全部都畫得非常的詳細"},{"start":431.696,"end":460.375,"text":"那韓國的話他也是給自己設定一個KPI他認為國家做得不夠好可能跟其他紐約啊倫敦比起來他的綠地面積不足所以他希望在2027年把人均的都市森林擴大到15平方米並且跟這個觀光還規劃在一起因為韓國他們重視把影視啊觀光等等然後國際的客人過來全部結合在一起那我也希望這點你要不要納入你八天後的計畫"},{"start":461.115,"end":477.842,"text":"保委員謝謝委員提供幫我們找了那麼多資料那我們其實也都找過那我們也會把這個考慮進去那法規的部分的確我們有在研議然後未來因為這個是一個法規要從原先的沒有一個法規要訂這個的確需要一些時間那我們都有把它放進我們的規劃當中"},{"start":478.962,"end":489.995,"text":"那這個就是我幫您整理出來的你剛剛講到說你會從法規面著手嘛這是第一點第二個就是明確的層級分工因為你剛才提到說地方政府他們不一定對數有這麼大的了解那三我也認為在您上任後呢"},{"start":494.5,"end":518.432,"text":"可以積極的去做資料庫跟身份證的建立畢竟您說要大量運用AI嘛第四 KPI的治理成效這邊就有看到您可能有提到說這個降溫的成效啊但是希望你可以加入強風的防護率等等的因為台灣颱風比較多一點然後還有它的存活率因為現在大家看到這個新聞很多人的重點是著重在綠的覆蓋率因為這個是民眾比較直觀的以上四點給您一些建議好 謝謝委員 謝謝"},{"start":523.394,"end":548.878,"text":"接下來是產業面比較關心的 所以我會快速問一下國內的碳費今年5月要開始繳納那歐盟也已經要開始實施CBAN了那很多業者啦 他們說最近的這個戰爭讓他們的製造成本大量的提高 尤其是跟石化相關的所以希望政府可以給喘息的機會 延後徵收這一點的話我們想問環境部是朝哪一個方向可以進行我們請我們署長"},{"start":549.518,"end":555.582,"text":"跟委員報告我們現在所有碳費收費對象他要繳的費率跟這個費用其實在法規還有他們的報告都已經都確定了那麼因應這個中東這個國際情勢確實是有少數的這些收費對象來跟我們提出來可不可以有這個暫緩繳交他們按照規定還是要展延這個繳費的期限"},{"start":578.138,"end":600.248,"text":"那我們現在就是有跟這些收費對象講如果是因為中東這個情勢然後配合整個國家的這個相關的這些穩定物價的策略的話他是可以在5月31日前跟你提出申請那你預計讓他們延到什麼時候到今年底今年底再來交就可以現在大概有幾家跟你們提出個位數"},{"start":602.472,"end":606.157,"text":"還沒提喔還沒提因為到五月底對OK好那部長這邊也給您一些建議啦因為歐盟像歐盟他們會希望說當然他們還是要去執行這個攤費可是他們又很怕這個戰爭會讓ETS有很大的一個波動所以他們有具體的給予"},{"start":620.094,"end":642.212,"text":"一個300億歐元的補助去支持歐洲的產業去碳化轉型所以他們並沒有因為戰爭的影響來放棄碳費的制度那另外在日本呢他們是投入了2100億日元的資金協助使用潔淨電力的企業進行投資所以只要你這家企業有提出你都是用潔淨電力的話那你就可以領到這樣子的補助"},{"start":643.032,"end":672.132,"text":"那日本當然是全面有戰略計畫有綠色轉型有數位轉型來推進這個他們日益增長的電力需求那我相信台灣也是面對到一樣的問題所以在這邊呢希望可以跟部長講因為我們現在這個比較破碎一點點我們在補助方面可能太陽能在屋頂上有補助或是有儲能系統補助這不是非常的直接有沒有辦法呢像日本跟歐盟來做一個直接的提供補助這樣子最直接的方式"},{"start":672.792,"end":687.412,"text":"包委員喔這個日本是有收這個地球溫暖化對策稅所以他基本上早就比我們提早很多年然後歐盟有ETS他有一大的Funding在那個地方我們是什麼都沒有所以基本上之後你會有大概5億以內的5億以內的"},{"start":690.416,"end":716.344,"text":"金額可以去做運用你有沒有考慮做這樣子的運用這個在我們的碳費的使用的目標裡面是的確是有把這個放進去但是因為我們的碳費總共加起來那個事情很多然後大家又希望可以從碳費裡面得到一些補助所以基本上還是有限啦那這個部分我們會期待未來跟經濟部來多做一些討論但是基本上碳定價的制度要趕快先行才有可能有這樣的這個制度產生"},{"start":716.544,"end":736.97,"text":"好那這方面一個月跟你要個書面報告你未來預計跟經濟部怎麼合作嗎經濟部現在本身就有類似這樣的已經有一些制度的已經有一些補助了那他們是由他們原來的預算來做進行那我們這邊是針對減碳的部分跟他比較不一樣好那部長我們就期待你八天後給我們的正式報告是是謝謝委員好謝謝好謝謝陳金威委員發言人"}]}},{"id":"168684","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168684","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5880b40c5769f175fd780492993ee710d96ca025fdcb7cdfea45507174d079c9a64353dbdea2ca5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李昆澤","委員發言時間":"09:38:19 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請一下NCC陳代理主委還有數碼部林部長好 我們請陳代理主委跟林部長"},{"start":16.604,"end":38.483,"text":"我先請教一下NCC的主委根據美聯社的報導芬蘭他們很早就將這個國家教育的課程納入媒體的識別的一個基本的能力甚至從3歲開始就已經在設計相關的教學內容這是我們看看我們台灣2025年的"},{"start":41.205,"end":66.872,"text":"台灣網路報告有近六成的民眾啊自認他能夠辨識相關的假訊息但是真正去動手查證的大概只有13.6%那這也顯示我們在相關的假訊息的識別以及相關的教育的這樣的一個能力啊其實是相關的有很大的一個落差那"},{"start":68.24,"end":96.806,"text":"我們對於相關的這一些假訊息尤其是AI假訊息它其實是正在破壞民主社會的這樣的一個媒體的嗜讀的一個能力那數位平台的源頭管理是非常重要我認為我們必須要來參考歐盟的一個法規那有兩個我認為非常重要"},{"start":97.446,"end":125.914,"text":"第一個就是AI生成的標注的要求第二是平台的責任第一個我們對於標注的要求就是這種生成式的AI它的不管是圖像音訊或者是影片的這些內容它AI系統的提供者它必須要確保它這些內容是可以用機器的這樣的一個可讀的格式"},{"start":128.125,"end":147.581,"text":"來清楚標示它是AI生成的第二個是平台的責任那平台的責任生成的內容生成的責任當然是比較屬於提供者但是呢在大型的線上平台像Facebook啦像IG啦他們啊"},{"start":148.72,"end":175.452,"text":"他們的責任也是非常重要我看歐盟的法規不管是世衛服務法或者是相關的AI法案他們都是採取聯訪的這樣的一個角色他們認為說這些平台必須要具有偵測的技術而且要確保這些標記它不會在相關的內容傳播的過程當中被刪除"},{"start":176.292,"end":192.786,"text":"那我們會不會參照這樣的一個歐盟的法規來請主委說明一下是跟委員報告分兩個部分在傳統廣電部分我們自己都有在做業者端跟民眾端培養的部分導入AI的議題的一些教育訓練在"},{"start":195.504,"end":220.011,"text":"網際網路這一塊我們大概113年度起因為相關的平台還有AI的興起CHATGP之後大概也相對比較成為熱潮之後也是從兩個部分從業者端平台端跟民眾端來分頭進行那這幾年大概都有辦相關的一些賠利像去年不管是在"},{"start":221.511,"end":235.978,"text":"民眾端我們辦了好幾場然後業者端也辦了好幾場大概都是會持續來處理業者端另外一個關鍵的核心要求就是要請主委我們在相關的預算或是相關的政策"},{"start":236.638,"end":257.899,"text":"已經有在做初步的這樣的一個防止AI生成式的這樣的一個AI的假訊息的這樣的一個處理但是還是不夠啦那我們必須要提到學者所謂的AI假信、自信的這樣一個嚴重的狀況就是說我們的社會有七成的人"},{"start":259.298,"end":282.497,"text":"表示自己啊能夠判斷而且很有自信的會認為這是AI的相關的深層的影像圖片音訊等等但是呢實際上他的準確率卻只有六成而已卻只有六成而已這就表示啊NCC過去在相關的媒體的這樣的一個試讀教育啊"},{"start":283.297,"end":300.379,"text":"是完全跟不上技術的演進這是一個很嚴重的問題那我們NCC每年都有編列這樣一個媒體試圖的這樣的一個推廣的預算那內容就是應該要與時俱進我看我們"},{"start":301.827,"end":316.011,"text":"現在這個媒體試讀的這樣一個推廣的預算到底有多少是用在教導民眾能夠識別這種深層次AI的特徵來說明一下我們請主任來補充說明阿華委員"},{"start":319.71,"end":332.245,"text":"那針對成人的部分我們的預算金額規模大概就是五百萬那另外針對IWIN兒少的部分那有一部分教育訓練也是針對我們對於這一種"},{"start":335.448,"end":358.544,"text":"媒體的這樣的一個要求對於這種深層式AI我們必須要清楚的要求標示的要求而且平台的責任要落實對於相關深層式AI的這樣的一個民眾的AI假信的自信的這樣的危機必須要重視我請教一下書畫部"},{"start":360.448,"end":377.888,"text":"我們蘇華部從2022年開始有開放電信事業申請相關的衛星通信用的無線電頻率那期間也擴大開放相關的衛星頻率的用途等等那我看到有很多的新系"},{"start":379.79,"end":397.861,"text":"就是都已經在台灣落地 而且都已經開始提供服務了那數位部也在2024年啊年底也採用SES的中軌衛星跟OneWeb的低軌衛星在台灣跟離島部間的770點的非同步衛星的應變網路那2025年我們也持續維運196個關鍵的這個站點那我們"},{"start":408.328,"end":435.53,"text":"要了解說我們對於相關的進程啊亞馬遜計畫最快也要在今年的下半年就要覆蓋台灣相關的網路啦那中華電信也在爭取相關的獨家代理那技術多元化也是未來一個方向那應變的機制也非常的重要啦那尤其是海嵐斷線或是通訊受損的時候啊"},{"start":436.19,"end":454.846,"text":"那優先都會將這些衛星的頻寬調度給國防、醫療、金融等關鍵單位那在防災救災三難的時候它也是很重要的一個使用那低軌衛星是我們暫時通訊的一個最後的保險"},{"start":456.047,"end":478.499,"text":"那目前的這些敵軌衛星的星系他們都是屬於外資的外資的星系那今年年底我們政府到底有沒有能力跟這些外資的星系來簽署相關具有法律的約束力的這種國家緊急通訊的優先權來請說明一下"},{"start":480.8,"end":497.895,"text":"是 現在如同委員所說的現在主要的這些新系都是國外的廠商那國外的廠商他要進到台灣的時候我們依照目前電信法第36條的規定必須由台灣的業者來營運就是說他們外商他不能 占股不能超過50%然後"},{"start":501.318,"end":519.49,"text":"這個事情我們會持續的跟這些星系去溝通那包含就是說大家很關心的STARLINK事實上我們也主動去跟STARLINK去做接觸那STARLINK他們的那個態度其實很有趣他們就跟我們講說目前因為台灣的4G跟5G的那個涵蓋率太高了超過99%所以他們評估認為說台灣這個市場剩下的他們的那個商業空間比較小所以他們"},{"start":525.894,"end":553.389,"text":"那個就是對他們來講這不是個高優先順序的市場但是我們認為說這個可能是真實的狀況也可能是他們談判的一個技巧那我們速發部不管怎麼樣會努力跟他們那個去談那這種談判的過程我想我們都知道就是說這中間有很多的攻防有很多的那個談判的那個技巧那我們這個都會去做我們是覺得這種具有法律約束力的緊急通訊的優先協議是非常重要的"},{"start":553.809,"end":578.027,"text":"我們當然又是說如果發生極端的狀況那這些外商會不會因為地緣政治的壓力單方面的斷訊這是非常嚴重的一個問題那數位部也預計在研發的這些國產的衛星的接收設備目前的致次率到底是有多少 來說明一下"},{"start":578.587,"end":597.217,"text":"因為通常這種衛星星系它的衛星跟它的接收器都是搭配的它這個不是公開的就是公開的規格所以譬如說那個Amazon Leo它的衛星就必須搭配它的接收器然後Starlink就必須搭配Starlink的接收器"},{"start":597.797,"end":625.12,"text":"那這些接收器目前很大一部分它供應鏈都是在台灣可是它實際的那個銷售都還是在這些信息手中那委員提到了就是說如果萬一台灣發生緊急狀況它會不會毀約那如果說到時候有毀約的話這絕對要負法律責任那現在如果說是由台灣公司來代理的話那這個法律責任會是在於台灣這個代理公司跟這些那個國外的公司之間的那個B2B的一個糾紛"},{"start":626.101,"end":654.111,"text":"但是如果是民間的話直接他直接來賣的話變成是台灣的使用者直接跟他總公司那這個對我們來講的確會比較麻煩部長我具體的建議我們在中華電信或者是數位部在要求這些相關代理的時候就應該要將本地的地面站點管理權是以及緊急頻寬的保障必須要納入合約是"},{"start":654.491,"end":668.406,"text":"第二就是說我們要加速衛星的相關資安的這些標準的一個檢測那應該要建立跟國際接軌例如歐盟他相關的漏洞的這些檢測的技術規範必須要接軌"},{"start":670.228,"end":691.9,"text":"另外就是要擴大衛星的這些多元軌道的運用就加強中軌跟低軌的混合應用就是來分散單一星系失效的這個風險最後讓你來補充說明是非常同意那個委員的建議這個是非常好的建議我們要盡量多用多元因為這些"},{"start":693.741,"end":722.62,"text":"這些衛星的那個星鏈的這些提供商有幾方面的風險一個是技術的風險他們因為這個技術太新了他可能原來預計要這麼做到時候發生技術的問題那另外有商業的風險因為有一些公司他的還沒有進入賺錢的狀況那就是說他的營運也是一種風險所以我們盡量多找幾個星系跟他去談這個對我們台灣來講是最安全的好 請主委跟部長嚴加督促相關的工作內容"},{"start":723.966,"end":724.614,"text":"謝謝委員提醒跟"}]}},{"id":"168674","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168674","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5880b40c5769f17a07223d8f66e59ea31e0b39ac3e37f829d978cd518bf594a167abc7ae7a34905ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"09:45:41 - 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up我也仔細查一下台大它的論文數是比你強的它的基礎研究比你強那跨領域的研究比你強某種強的就是臨床醫學專科發展與應用所以這比較中間還是有區別的就以台大來講如果講SCI台大這部分是遙遙離線籠總的我這樣對嗎"},{"start":177.574,"end":186,"text":"其實楊明交大跟榮總現在的關係是非常密切雖然沒有結婚但是很快很早就睡在一起"},{"start":188.029,"end":204.198,"text":"大家感情很好你這個比喻很好咧很早就睡 要怎麼睡在一起啦這條路咧因為我也是楊交大的教授兼任那我們楊明教大醫學院的院長是我們的副院長所以這關係 朱瑞子是我們關係密切但是不見得來來來 我要講到這一點請問你"},{"start":207.94,"end":227.247,"text":"這樣比不上得很好啦台大醫院 台大醫學院的院長大還是台大醫院的院長大 請問你我兩個都是好朋友 兩個都蠻大的 但是不能講兩個都蠻大的啦台灣大型醫學院 輻射醫院好像是醫學院院長大 但是管理醫院是院長在管理是啦 醫學院當然大 所以照你講的話"},{"start":232.609,"end":240.215,"text":"陽明交大的育學院長應該要比榮總院長大可是大家都知道榮總院長大所以你們現在是up級雖然睡在一起的位置不一樣對不對 是你大現在來講是榮總大 不是陽交大大報告委員跟委員報告研究的事情我要澄清一下現在我們的研究跟都市共同發表我們加起來的量能跟台大沒有差很多"},{"start":262.013,"end":291.353,"text":"台灣史丹佛4%最好的臨床醫學領域的研究學者北榮跟台大請問你們那頂尖的嘛 比如說Nature啦 Science啦這個你跟台大比還是輸啊平均的impact factor非常相近我們就算那個影響因子而且對於學人就是說醫學系的這些教授們其實鼓勵他們去做研究啦幹什麼的這一部分你身體不夠啦"},{"start":291.693,"end":310.6,"text":"好 是在關係密切來 我就問你一個我最後一句我就問你一個某一個私立大學他說發表一篇在SCI裡面impact factor上有一定的weight比如五分以上就拿不起然後可以給他免交一門課"},{"start":312.489,"end":325.573,"text":"楊敏可以做得到嗎楊教導你幫忙做決定其實如果是我們共同發表的文章在榮總給的獎勵是非常高的那如果還不夠都可以討論可以再講話我現在跟你講"},{"start":327.694,"end":352.72,"text":"某私立大學對於研究因為大家大學排名這個然後回過來最後一句話認真去思考這是一個世界的趨勢這個現在來講是頭重腳輕台大比台大就好了醫學系醫學院的院長他的位階絕對高於醫院的院長雖然院長資源很多很偉大但是在榮總不是榮總是榮總院長大"},{"start":355.001,"end":382.479,"text":"陽明教大的醫學院的院長想基本上overall是這個樣子是不一樣的頭重腳輕現在是一個畸形的有bias你認認思考一下好不好這個今天就特別來這裡最後一點就是要肯定一下院長在主委面前肯定一下院長在找那個叫什麼院區來的什麼院區你說我們北榮信義院區北榮信義院區增加有多大"},{"start":383.725,"end":392.353,"text":"總共包括虎林街旁邊加起來快兩千坪造福台北市人民要去就醫比較方便這一點值得肯定九千多萬我們絕對支持謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168673","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168673","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5880b40c5769f1aeb0a3362f1e98ee69f826bc43123a8d29d978cd518bf594f0a37585b42538705ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許宇甄","委員發言時間":"09:43:53 - 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蘇長 近來就是中國海警船跟公務船一再的侵擾金門限制海域昨天又發生了一起 那這已經不是單純的個案那在這邊當然我要先肯定我們第一線的這個海巡同仁面對這樣的高壓情勢 始終也是堅守崗位保持克制跟專業 非常的不容易"},{"start":42.979,"end":70.704,"text":"但是呢也正因為如此我們不能讓我們的基層同仁就是撐在最前面應該我們必須要拿出更完整的應變準備讓第一線在捍衛主權維持秩序的同時也能夠有足夠的人力裝置制度跟規範作為後盾那先請教署長就是面對中國海警船常態化的侵擾金門海這個水域請問海巡署目前除了"},{"start":71.964,"end":92.362,"text":"一對一的病行監控外還有什麼長期系統性的因應對策這邊跟委員報告那我想全世界應對中國輝帶洗腦 海準洗腦台灣的海巡署是最有經驗的那我特別這邊跟委員報告全世界所有的國家都曾經到"},{"start":92.842,"end":112.763,"text":"海巡署來取經我們怎麼樣去面對中國大陸這種灰色洗腦的相關的這些措施跟因應措施那在目前看起來我們現在這樣的處理方式是獲得全世界各國的肯定的因為我們的執法的效能是非常非常有效的另外一部分為了要"},{"start":113.764,"end":137.061,"text":"為了要增加應變的縱深所以我們有最近這個也特別謝謝委員的支持就是我們國安特別預算裡面有編列很多預算那這些預算就是要提早徵收到相關的這些預警緊支然後我們提早因應然後提早預制就不會讓這樣的情形這個比較靠近我們的水利來做這個他們所謂這個中央大會所稱的所謂的執法"},{"start":137.481,"end":161.519,"text":"那我想我們未來會有更有能力還有我們未來的大線持續建造也有更多的艦船艇的能量去應對中國海警的這些襲擾那比如說未來他們侵擾的規模更擴大比如說可能從4艘增加到6艘8艘甚至更多點同時進入那我方金門的第一線船艇跟人力是否足夠長期的支撐"},{"start":164.358,"end":179.191,"text":"特別跟委員報告我們在艦船也調度我們是統一調度的也就是說如果是金門你現在是海警船數量增加然後我們預警情之出現我們會從台灣本島調大艦跟巡防艇去支援那因為距離近"},{"start":179.511,"end":197.448,"text":"所以現在的人力是可以辦法做長期的一個制止人力上沒有問題因為其實現在我想海巡署這個基層人力的這個現在還是相當的不足啦所以針對這個部分我覺得應該是也要針對人力的部分要做一些補充把這個應該要編組的這個員額能夠編組這樣免得"},{"start":201.572,"end":227.021,"text":"說如果萬一是長期性的一個這樣子的一個侵擾的話那基本上我們人力的調度上現在看起來也許是足夠但事實上也許基層的同仁其實是已經苦不堪言了那另外就是目前金馬鵬分署跟第十二巡防區的人力配置跟這個資源的能量因為大部分都是發生在這個金馬鵬分署這邊"},{"start":228.141,"end":249.578,"text":"那現在這些的資源能量是不是充足呢目前我們在應對這個相關周邊水域的情況人力是夠的然後我們也會機動從台灣調艦船艇去支援所以現在金馬鵬分署的這個基層的配置上還有輪班部分都是沒有問題的沒有問題的"},{"start":250.859,"end":267.68,"text":"但是我覺得還是要真正了解基層的一個需求那如果對方在海上採取衝撞逼近跟危險超船的高風險的行為海巡署第一線是不是有明確的可操作的分級應變跟通報的規範"},{"start":269.102,"end":289.74,"text":"避免這個誤判 增高衝突各位委員包括 我們一向都是不挑釁 但是我們也不示弱也就是他們對我們做什麼措施 我們同樣會用同一等的強度去回應請委員放心 我們有能力去處理海上任何的衝撞 任何的衝突"},{"start":290.762,"end":307.317,"text":"好 那如果真正的發生了這個突發的衝突啦或者一些這個器械的使用爭議啊海巡署對於第一線的同仁是不是有完整的法律協助心理支持跟事後的保障機制我們對於這個器械使用條例我們是有一定的規範的"},{"start":307.878,"end":320.963,"text":"譬如說你要使用槍啊 炮啊 要經過我的允許才可以使用另外對於通常因公執法所採 衍生了相關的這些不管是任何的賠償啊 撫恤啊什麼這些我們有一套的完整的這個撫恤措施"},{"start":321.905,"end":349.557,"text":"對 我想照完整的措施避免讓基層的同仁單獨去承受相關的風險這樣才能夠提高我們這個海巡署的同仁他們願意在為我們國家付出在第一線為國家征戰的一個過程中能夠受到大家的肯定那另外我再請教您一下就是說這個潮投地檢署在本月的14號起訴境外勢力行賄軍人泄密國安的這個"},{"start":351.758,"end":374.44,"text":"因為海巡署目前也有一位哨衛層級的官兵有涉嫌請問一下一個哨衛層級的官兵為什麼能夠接觸到足以被認定為違反國安法的秘密文書或電詞的記錄海巡署內部針對各級人員的接觸機密的全線分級是不是需要全面的重新盤查"},{"start":375.36,"end":394.725,"text":"根本包括因為這位同仁是在東南沙分屬那基本上東南沙分屬的所有的相關這些資訊我們都會把他列為機敏性的這個資料那他洩漏出去以後我們在第一時間就根據這個相關的法律就跟他這個停止然後最後把他免職"},{"start":395.965,"end":411.277,"text":"對 那針對現在這樣子的狀況的話針對我們現在的這個接觸精密文件的權限的分級是不是需要重新的那個檢視呢各位幫我們本來就是有一套的機制啦所以現在的機制是可以是沒有問題的"},{"start":412.017,"end":427.449,"text":"我們現在的機制上是可以防堵的但是我要特別跟委員說明是任何的這個所有的機敏的資料我們都是第一時間作為維護的主要對象另外我們這個所有機敏資料他都有被"},{"start":428.489,"end":454.114,"text":"洩密的可能所以我們對於人員的教育跟訓練我們現在持續加強那我們導入政風系統裡面的相關的這些防止國安洩密事件的相關措施那目前看起來這一個效果還是非常好的是由我們政風市來做處理還是要請海巡署再能夠再加強我們的這個針對一般我們的這些會涉及到這機敏的資料的這些人員要做更加強的一個教育訓練是謝謝好 謝委員"}]}},{"id":"168672","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168672","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5880b40c5769f149a0853da717fb3963685f3e6e8cff8529d978cd518bf5948618b4638536ef0d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"柯志恩","委員發言時間":"09:37:28 - 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謝謝莊委我們是不是請陳主委有請陳主委"},{"start":17.489,"end":41.147,"text":"主委好台电在上个月已经送交了他们这个换照申请案还有再运转的一个计划那我想和我们刚刚报告的已经完成了这个审查程序的一个审查现在这个是由这个专案审查团队进展实质的一个审查那我可不可以先请问一下这个专案审查团队是怎么样组成的"},{"start":42.198,"end":57.708,"text":"这个是我们邀请各界的专家学者共同组织的团队详细有请高组长没关系很简单的讲都是属于你们河岸的专家对不对长期跟你们合作的对和电厂运作所以你的实质审查预计将要审查多久"},{"start":59.709,"end":86.721,"text":"实际审查主要还是要看台电公司对这就是我们现在比较担忧的问题因为外界评估你这个手段的审查应该是会有多达上千题吧所以说呢相当考验这个台电的回应速度跟这个技术处理的一个能力那我们根据最近的一个新闻来看就是韩国申请核电的研议来看大概审查作业耗时的三年都还没有重启那我们会不会拖了这么久就你的预估"},{"start":87.891,"end":100.025,"text":"跟委員說明喔,那個是媒體講的上千題目前會裡面還在收集那個委員的意見因為那個韓國,他們目前為止審查的三年都還沒有辦法所以我說請你預估,會不會拖這麼久"},{"start":102.186,"end":117.326,"text":"應該還是要以店長的各自的狀況來解決所以我們今天應該是找台電的過來問一下因為我們目前來說是分階段來提送這個文件的一個審查那台電有沒有告訴說下一個階段的申請文件什麼時候會再送出來"},{"start":118.769,"end":146.19,"text":"目前还没有都还没有特别去讲嘛因为根据合工的这个专家的评估你如果就是采取这个分阶段提交报告审查其实是可以加速这个电机组这个重启作业的一个时程而且将这个时间可能提前半年到一年左右那目前为止呢我们对于你们专家审查我们是深具信心的我说实在的因为过去来说你们其实长期在run这样的一个机制但是呢这个台电的这个行政效率我就觉得"},{"start":146.63,"end":156.274,"text":"永遠都需要因為為什麼我當然必須要有點質疑啊因為低放的目前為止到底處置的計畫我們還是削弱不明啊那我們高放的選址條件目前我也還看不到啊沒錯吧"},{"start":158.325,"end":188.065,"text":"是不是是啊低放没有告诉我们高放也没有然后我们现在还要完全完全depend on这个台电的这个审查的这个时间所以我觉得这个部分里面呢我觉得何安我目前可以提到了就是你们好好的督促希望能够赶快提出否则呢一个可以可能可以解决我们核能问题的部分就是因为受限于不断的在拖我觉得这个部分完全没完没了而且亲说你们4月下旬要到屏东横村举办地方说明会"},{"start":188.625,"end":216.493,"text":"那現在已經4月22號 地點確定了沒有 地點時間確定了沒有時間跟地點都確定 下禮拜我還是要提醒喔 因為你們上次有辦這個除疫的計畫喔但是呢 也都是有誠意 但是呢 恆春地方的民眾是非常不滿嘛他們其實會抗議 譬如他們認為這個公民的參與度是不夠周延而且很多的相關的資訊不夠充分所以他們都是在網站裡面被動的去了解這個訊息所以呢"},{"start":217.273,"end":237.994,"text":"主委你们这次如果说在这次重启之前的这样的一个会议我还是希望能够跟居民好好来做一个沟通这是非常重要的可以吗好接下来我们再来问一下我想今天的原子能法的草案当中罗廷伟就是我们的召委特别提到一个重点他是希望把河岸会升个为二级的原子能主管机关"},{"start":238.655,"end":254.946,"text":"那我想政府未来甚至是越来越着作有关我们核电然后未来就可能发展新的核能然后这就是我们国家主要的核能监管一个单位主委你的单位非常的重要你知道吗但是在总质询的时候我也问过卓院长"},{"start":255.646,"end":273.598,"text":"目前是回应我说像目前来说二级机关的这个数量已经饱和了所以他说不太有可能但是呢我们看一下近十年来政府通过改组也成立了不少这个所谓的二级单位海洋委员会促转会速发部运动部只要行政委员愿意"},{"start":274.218,"end":303.958,"text":"他都有办法成立但是呢而且你看看我要请主委你们各位看一下河安会他真的是有他的必要性的各国的核能的这个管制的单位委会的组成都是由总统总理或是首相提名经过国会同意通过而且就隶属于总统府底下直接向总统报告这是别人来看看国这个河安的这样的一个地位跟角色那你不认为我们这个现在大家说你所主导的这个组织成绩太低吗主委"},{"start":308.161,"end":312.344,"text":"主委絕對不是這樣子的你們現在沒有辦法參與行政院更不是總統底下的三個委員會的機關代表成員"},{"start":324.113,"end":342.745,"text":"那我们现在在非核的政策之下面我们目前为止已经有个新的一个转机我觉得你们和安会好像就排排除在我们的整个政府的这个施政体系之外哎你都不会为你们这个组感到委屈哦主委你2024年时候在我们赖总统这个身兼主席的时候你还是他办公室里面的特助哎"},{"start":343.925,"end":361.952,"text":"我suppose你跟他應該算是很熟難道你不能在這個地方去跟他做這樣的回應嗎這是你所主管這麼多核安專家我們未來有這麼多新的核能的發展別人都是隸屬在這個所謂的總統府之下我們卻是一個三級單位然後一問好像都沒有辦法讓你參加你不覺得委屈嗎 主委"},{"start":363.349,"end":381.069,"text":"这涉及行政院组织法组织法过去十年当中有太多只要行政院愿意看中你这个单位为我们的能源未来的整个新的一个发展它势必会在这个组织上面会做很多的调整可是你有向上反应过吗还是你就被动的接受"},{"start":383.188,"end":402.978,"text":"如果核安会有调整的话当然对于国际教育人才培育方面是有帮助的但是目前我们是只能举手岗位把事情做好你有没有跟院长提出来过如果没有的话我们可以透过我们这个修法来帮助你有机会的话说不定会了"},{"start":404.446,"end":421.29,"text":"好 主委我还是觉得这个是一个很严重的一个问题我虽然知道你不管在二级在三级你都会做好你的工作但是一个组织的提升不管它的经费 它的人力它各方面的配比我觉得你应该好好的重视这样的问题你绝对不会只是一个过度的"},{"start":421.69,"end":439.94,"text":"更何况我刚刚特别提出来你还是当过主席办公室里面的好不好里面的机的特助支撑的关系是别人所没有的你更有这样的条件应该去跟他们好好来做一些反应不过你再说到这个和安会我还是要特别提到啊你看目前来说来说的话我们上个礼拜已经召开了总这个"},{"start":439.94,"end":440.02,"text":"是的"},{"start":461.45,"end":473.285,"text":"3.3億那這一項的話你四年共變了28億那我想說你主要是要降低國際輸入依賴然後提高我們的自治的比重沒錯吧是的請問你如果這個錢給你們了你們可以把你們的自治比重提高多少"},{"start":479.039,"end":502.08,"text":"因為目前我們的合一的這個藥物八成以上大概都是依賴國外進口嘛那我既然給你們這個28億建制的設備、藥物儲備等等那我們計畫目前可以提高幾成的自治比率我們主要先針對國人常用的九種關鍵的藥物沒問題啊 那我說自治比率啊自治的比率就是這九種比方說Solin 201"},{"start":502.6,"end":516.816,"text":"所以你們可以提高自治比例從現在零到變久每個藥物的比例都不一樣收齡2001我們希望能提高到七成到八成七成到八成某些藥物不是所有的當然七成到八成這是你們KPM"},{"start":517.797,"end":534.365,"text":"所以我們給預算的金分你們可以提高到七成到八成這個東西都要被檢驗你今天在這個地方講我們都要特別提到所以你們我就是提到就是說我們既然可以讓你們先行的動資但是雖然這只是第一年計畫而已但是我們還是希望在我們選預算的時候我們還是希望你能夠更明確的目標因為我們真的不希望什麼東西都靠國外那既然你們可以告訴我們在藥物的層面上面自治比例可以達到七八成包圍不是所有藥物我剛剛講你說九種嗎"},{"start":546.611,"end":574.331,"text":"九種關鍵藥物對啊 九種關鍵藥物嘛可以達到九種的藥物你們自己的中間可以其中一種不是所有的每一種藥物都不一樣我們還是再詳細再跟委員一個書面的說明一定要給我書面說明因為我上次問的時候你們卻沒有辦法給我告訴我哪一個部分所以我們在審預算的時候你說九種藥物每一種都不一樣每一種裡面可以得到計資的比例到底有多少這些都是我們要一一來看到的我們在審預算的時候一定會看到好不好好 還是再一次"},{"start":575.732,"end":599.42,"text":"跟主委说这个人生最后一场的战役既然有这样的一个条件跟赖主席赖总统有这样的一个关系我还是觉得以面对国际能源趋势的问题我还是强烈认为我们的核安组织应该有条件可以往上来做一个更好的组织运作这是你的角色你的责任更是你的使命可以吗谢谢委员谢谢委员"}]}},{"id":"168683","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168683","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5880b40c5769f109b2360a72ed582b10d96ca025fdcb7cdfea45507174d079c9a64353dbdea2ca5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"萬美玲","委員發言時間":"09:28:42 - 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竹密等等所以其實你對NCC的作業是非常了解的其實本席認為你應該就你的經驗跟專業其實要跟行政院這邊加強溝通甚至於你可以推薦一些人選所以我不曉得到現在為止剩下八天新的人選都沒有出來是因為"},{"start":124.369,"end":131.322,"text":"現在我們在這個專業領域的人才找不到還是說其實專業與否不重要是不是自己人才重要所以是哪一種"},{"start":133.612,"end":153.919,"text":"因為過往有提名過兩次有一些處理的經驗昨天在院會院長有做一些說明我相信院長應該會有一些考量再處理你的相信不重要但是你用專業去建議是比較重要那所以呢人選制沒有出來剩下八天我想請教一下是不是您有被徵選要連任"},{"start":155.829,"end":181.545,"text":"目前沒有那如果徵詢您的話,您會連任嗎?你表達意願,我們才知道將來要怎麼去處理啊我相信適合擔任...擔任委員的人,台灣人才基金應該所在多有我相信如果可以的話,我相信把這個用餘空間留給院長會比較好所以不想做了,不想繼續連任?不是,這是尊重院長的選擇"},{"start":182.526,"end":200.379,"text":"好我想我們還是要加快腳步了好不好好謝謝那我們陳主委可以先請回謝謝您然後接下來我想請教一下我們的林部長部長我看到書發部在4月15號的時候有發布了一個徵求民間自行規劃申請參與AI算力中心的一個BOO案對不對"},{"start":201.019,"end":225.857,"text":"一個公告那希望用促餐的方式把企業來投入建制AI算力中心那當然就是說這個參與的機構應該要有一定比例的算力然後提供政府學術單位無償或者是優惠的來使用這可以協助我們企業在這個合理的成本或優惠的成本之下取得算力的支援我覺得本席覺得這個構想其實真的非常的好也支持"},{"start":227.258,"end":253.997,"text":"這個4月15號我們這個案子出來以後申請的時間是到5月14號一個月的時間那請問一下部長我們原本預計你預期有多少家企業來申請因為本席之前有聽有看到媒體也講說好像我們鴻海也會來所以當時我們就覺得真的很棒啊那所以你預期有多少家那現在有多少家來申請了目前實際第一案的應該就是鴻海一家鴻海有來申請了嗎"},{"start":257.372,"end":277.216,"text":"要講清楚耶 鴻海有來申請了嗎現在還沒有還沒有 那部長你怎麼可以說還沒有 你在這裡回答我本行說鴻海有來申請跟我們報告 他已經有在我們公告之前 他有提出規劃構想書不是嘛 提出規劃構想是一件事嘛我本行問得很清楚 鴻海來申請了嗎因為沒有 部長 鴻海到底來申請了沒有啦"},{"start":281.53,"end":296.255,"text":"沒有現在還在政策公告的期間啊還沒有截止啊是嗎那所以洪海來申請了嗎此時此刻本席在這裡詢問嗎政策公告還沒就沒有嘛對不對公示的是沒有但是他之前已經跟我們密切聯繫而且他還提出了那個"},{"start":296.835,"end":305.539,"text":"立憲聯繫所以你認為他百分之百一定會來提出申請這個我不能保證所以不能保證就應該就現狀此時此刻本席在委員會問你你當然就應該要現在我沒有要你保證啊我剛才的問題你要聽清楚嘛本席是在此時此刻問你有多少家來申請你跟我說鴻海結果鴻海現在此時此刻是沒有提出來的啊誰要你保證啊你有什麼本事來做保證啊"},{"start":321.687,"end":342.376,"text":"是完全同意這就是我要講的我沒有這個保證所以你要據實回答呀在委員會可以隨便答詢喔是抱歉不可以這種答詢的態度啊是不是沒有要你保證沒有人能夠保證鴻海會不會來但是你要據實答詢嘛你要據實答詢這件事很重要你能明白嗎所以你以後會據實答詢嗎我現在有多少家來申請了部長"},{"start":350.154,"end":375.563,"text":"現在有多少家來申請部長您是部長是吧部長現在有多少家來申請現在還在公告期間我們剛才市長已經說明了到目前為止我問的問題很清楚到目前為止有多少家來申請那如果說照這種定義委員您這樣的定義的話是沒有現在一家都零嘛這有什麼好定義不定義很清楚就我問你答因為現在還在公告期間到目前為止中文到目前為止不夠清楚嗎到目前為止有多少家"},{"start":382.469,"end":408.227,"text":"因為在公告期間所以沒有好 到目前為止沒有嘛 對不對那很簡單的問題嘛所以就是我們要加強嘛剛剛北溪也說了這個構想我覺得很好可是如果到目前為止都還沒有人來申請那我覺得我們是不是要加強一下嘛我當然知道公告期間啊難道按照你這樣講的意思是說5月14號自然就會很多嗎不要這樣講嘛今天在這裡備詢就是答今天的事情嘛 是不是是 完全同意"},{"start":408.567,"end":416.132,"text":"完全同意以後要照這樣做好不好部長改善一下那另外據本市所知道國科會的國網中心在去年我們有成立一個台灣算力聯盟那部長知道這個聯盟嗎知道那這個聯盟其實也很棒就是說我們要擴大算力的應用推廣來結合產業或者是學術然後公共單位的需求但我看了一下我個人覺得"},{"start":433.985,"end":452.859,"text":"跟速發部這一次BOO的這個案子的這個目標或是方向其實蠻雷同的那我不曉得說未來如果說目前我們是零但是在5月14號之後如果有企業我們來申請了以後那我們成行以後是不是會把這個資源呢併入到這個聯盟裡面去有這樣的想法嗎"},{"start":453.399,"end":467.86,"text":"基本上這是兩個不同的目的我們樹發部主要是要提供產業界足夠的算力那國科會的國網中心主要是要提供政府單位以及研究單位包含那個大學等"},{"start":468.621,"end":485.29,"text":"那有足夠的算力所以我們速發布這個案子我們的這個算力是會收費的基本上因為這是商業營運然後國網中心他提供的這些算力有的是會有優惠的價格那有的是會是以免費的方式提供給所以還有費用不同的問題是"},{"start":486.271,"end":511.423,"text":"好那但是我在想喔因為我們現在喔不曉得就是部長知不知道我們整個公部門現在的算力中心有建置的有多少你有去了解過嗎因為這是國如同我們剛才講的這是國科會國網中心那邊的職責所以我們大概知道但是因為數據我的記性沒有這麼好我沒辦法在那邊講出那個很明確的數字那如果說委員這邊有需要的話很好本席非常喜歡你這種務實的答詢喔是"},{"start":512.944,"end":538.822,"text":"那我覺得這樣講啦就是說我們政府現在有在提倡嘛要建設AI之島所以我們知道AI很重要 算力很重要那既然我們國科會現在其實也有很多的計畫在走那訴發部也在做可是看起來訴發部也不算是在國科會這個聯盟之下而是我們單獨有一個我們自己的作用嘛但是呢 未來到底我們整個政府它一個公部門是一個整體的我們怎麼去整合那我想聽你這樣講是以國科會為主不是訴發部為主嗎"},{"start":540.103,"end":568.071,"text":"我們是不同就是說產業的算力需求由我們抒發部這邊來主責來解決然後政府機關跟學術單位的算力需求由國科會來負責解決這個是我們的分工好可以我同意我想分工很重要那當然整合很重要這未來當然我們跟國科會這邊再來討論就是分工之後那我們怎麼去統合這樣的一個資源所以這個部分就希望這個案子不錯那希望這個部長繼續加油好嗎謝謝委員的支持與鼓勵謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168664","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168664","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5880b40c5769f1252c47c948c5ff5aa31e0b39ac3e37f829d978cd518bf5941ee19b822c4e652d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳俊宇","委員發言時間":"09:21:59 - 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主委早今天我們想先跟退伍會所屬的機構對於勞動權益保障來進行討論這個議題我想過去也曾經跟您討論過我想政府必須要克遵法令維護勞工的基本權益這也是主委您所要追求的一個基本原則"},{"start":33.228,"end":60.262,"text":"那尤其目前台灣正面臨嚴峻的這種缺工潮那無論是醫療體系的護理人員還是各大農場的基層同仁都相當難招募到薪水加入那如果我們退伍會所轄管的相關機構屢屢傳出違反勞動法令的情勢不但是有損我們現職同仁的權益更有損整個退伍會體系的聲譽"},{"start":62.233,"end":82.569,"text":"那恐怕會造成留不住現有的人才也招募不到薪水的一個惡性循環那政府應該作為表率帶頭示範如何來建立一個友善合法的一個勞動環境所以我們對於這個退伍會所轄管的醫療觀光乃至於轉投資的相關事業"},{"start":83.936,"end":97.149,"text":"必然會以更高的標準來做檢視那這幾年多次發生違反勞動法令的案件其中一定有需要檢討的部分先從醫院的部分來討論我們從勞動部所公開的相關資料來看"},{"start":104.155,"end":122.071,"text":"光是今年以來被處分的案件當中,有包括勞基法、職安法還有災保法等案例並且在這個案例的數量相較前幾年都有顯著的一個增加的情況那我想這部分我想先請教主委,針對我們榮總體系"},{"start":126.116,"end":135.034,"text":"仍舊出現違反勞動法令的這種情勢那目前改善的狀況為何退會有沒有檢討這個案例增加的原因是什麼"},{"start":136.333,"end":160.389,"text":"謝謝委員的指導我想這個非常重要維護我們勞工的權益這是一定要做的我們這些職場都是營造一個友善的職場我們統計115年違反勞動基準法相關的容願有五家容願五家容願這裡面有六個案件我們分別都已經處理了主要它是申請加班"},{"start":161.149,"end":176.336,"text":"或者是拆勤的刷卡記錄可能都有一些疏失這些我們分別都來督導給大家改善拆勤系統一定要核實記錄然後出勤的記載要精確到分中"},{"start":177.796,"end":202.341,"text":"嚴禁個人私下記載然後預立財線上系統來佐證這些剛剛跟委員報告的五家容院六個案件我們分別都各案都分別來管制來指導他們完成改善的作為而且納入我們年度的績效考核加強勞動法制的一些教育訓練這是我們有關容院方面跟委員做回報"},{"start":203.221,"end":222.451,"text":"已經有掌握相關的這個改進的一個進度吧是都有好那為了督促我們醫院能夠強化這個法尊我們也看到勞動部在去年的8月1號生效新規定將針對這個醫學中心還有區醫院違反勞基法將面臨加重的法源"},{"start":223.932,"end":251.461,"text":"那個結合這個勞動部加重裁法的這個標準我想請教主委是我們退伍會有沒有強化哪些內部控制還有這個管理的相關機制以確保這些醫院必須要落實規定也確實可以保障我們醫護人員的一個基本權益我要請台北紅總院長跟您報告好請陳院長謝謝委員關心這個議題現在遵守勞動法令這是我們非常重要一件事情對不起"},{"start":252.361,"end":281.721,"text":"因為現在的醫事人力嚴重短缺如果再不遵守法令根本收不到人所以醫院裡面的各委員會相關委員會都定期來開會有勞動的投訴甚至農總已經有工會台北農總已經有工會我們都會非常的重視然後一直討論如果有違法的地方我們一定要馬上改進但是呢這個案件上裡面其中有一件其實住院師聘用住院師他沒有適用勞基法"},{"start":282.581,"end":303.817,"text":"那所以我們現在訴願,但是沒有經過我們解釋就已經開罰,所以其實報告委員我們還是有點委屈,不過呢我們會繼續的訴願可以申訴吧申訴好那另外我想參考這個立法院的預算中心所統計的相關資料,在107年到114年我們違反勞基法的案件當中"},{"start":304.877,"end":312.505,"text":"最普遍的是違反的這個樣態就是違反第24條那剛剛可能就是主委您說的高達六次的部分"},{"start":313.529,"end":334.081,"text":"所佔的違反案件的事成,這些違規內容基本上都是延長工作的時間未加給工資另外休息日延長工時也未給工資直到今年違反的案例當中,仍然有相關的情勢出現針對加班未確實"},{"start":337.643,"end":361.212,"text":"幾星的部分 究竟是因為我們醫院內部的這個作業規定還是行政管理上的一個漏洞那退伍費我們要如何來確實改善所以各位委員包括這個我們從兩方面都做一個檢討我們第一個就是加班它一定要有必要性那應該是經過主管的指派或者同意之後再來去做這樣就不會產生一個落差"},{"start":361.952,"end":385.869,"text":"然後如果要加班一定要依法核發這個加班費這是一個人性化的管理然後用系統出勤的紀錄來計算剛剛跟委員報告這要計算到到分鐘那如果如果沒有禁止申報加班那麼核消一律就線上系統來辦理那這些我們相關的一些管制作為都持續來督導來管制來改善"},{"start":387.37,"end":412.084,"text":"那我想我們今天從這個醫療體系啦特別是我們最辛苦的醫護人員延伸談到我們退伍會所屬的農場的這個相關基層同仁不是要針對個案來詢問而是要檢討我們整個體系的這個管理缺失但是如果連國家所屬的我們的醫療機構還有我們的事業單位都無法提供一個合法友善的勞動環境"},{"start":413.665,"end":439.742,"text":"我們自己在想恐怕會很難期待到優秀人才會願意留下來為我們國家、為民眾來服務所以這部分我想也請我們主委能以最高的標準來檢視那也請主委和我們各單位的主管還有我們相關的負責人能夠多加留意我們剛剛所提的部分確實來做改善提升我們的一個服務的效能"},{"start":440.578,"end":445.115,"text":"好 以上 謝謝委員主導好 謝謝主委 謝謝各位謝謝陳軍營委員接下來我們有請"}]}},{"id":"168663","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168663","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5880b40c5769f1f522b82788332e0b63685f3e6e8cff8529d978cd518bf59416e388580db087295ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"09:15:25 - 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質詢好 謝謝主席有請主委 謝謝有請主委"},{"start":19.309,"end":34.834,"text":"好 主委早安喔好 我們來看一下這個第一張的投影片是我們看到一個新聞稿河岸會的新聞稿說台電已經在3月27號送出河山廠運轉執照的換照申請還有再運轉計畫文件"},{"start":36.354,"end":50.465,"text":"那核安會說你們在4月8號的時候已經確認台電送來的文件跟計劃是完整的而且符合申請要件所以接下來核安會會正式啟動實質審查作業以上的資訊是對的嗎"},{"start":52.424,"end":67.517,"text":"是的好那我们接下来就来看了所谓再运转计划这件事情我认为大家会非常好奇一台电的计划内容是什么二何安会如何进行所谓的实质审查我们来看一下为什么要问这个问题呢来第一个"},{"start":68.157,"end":88.204,"text":"我想所有的事情來下一張 核安是首要但是在上一次3月18號的時候核安會的匯報裡面到叫文來國民黨還有民眾黨很多委員一直問時程一直問時程要核安會回答那我要先說在還沒有看到實質的報告之前就積極的要求明確的時程我認為這個非常不合理"},{"start":88.604,"end":117.804,"text":"因為台電不是只是一個教功課的人何安慧也不是一個簡單改考卷的人在教了功課跟改了考卷之間我認為何安慧必須要清楚的跟國人交代來下一張那之前台電自己也明確的說安全沒有辦法用時間去權衡所以當台電交出再運轉計劃之後台電還要再提出自主安全計劃所以接下來我想要給主委您一點時間向國人報告"},{"start":118.824,"end":135.902,"text":"河安会未来要如何审查这个计划会邀请什么样的专家学者会有什么样的机制让国人安心来 诸位请河安会依据河管法来实施这个审查详细的内容我请我们的高组长好 谢谢"},{"start":137.452,"end":161.987,"text":"好 跟委員說明喔 那國內的核電廠都已經運轉執照已經屆期了那依照新的核管法的規定就是如果核電廠要繼續運轉必須要提出申請那主要要提出兩份的文件那一份就是剛才委員所提到再運轉計畫那主要目的就是要將原本是處在處於階段要把金主恢復到運轉的狀態"},{"start":163.257,"end":184.308,"text":"那另外一份文件就是包括老化管理老化評估跟耐震安全等相關的技術報告那這部分就是台電公司對外所說的自主安全檢查那所有的文件都要通過核安衛的安全審查跟現場查證那才會確認符合法規後才會同意換發執照"},{"start":185.765,"end":215.089,"text":"那在這個過程中除了核安會的同仁審查之外核安會也會邀請外部的學者專家那主要就是包括有核工那機械土木結構以及儀電等等跟電廠整個電廠運作息息相關的專業領域的學者專家來一起來審查相關的技術文件那所有文件跟審查的意見都會公佈在核安會的網站"},{"start":215.709,"end":241.877,"text":"那也可以讓民眾可以了解整個的審查作業的情形以上說明好那但是因為台灣過往沒有這個經驗對吧所以我們這一次我認為面臨前所未有的挑戰是當然我相信剛剛處長您所說的不論是河工專家機械專家土木專家電廠運作專家還有河安會我們內部技術同仁會就技術文件來進行審核然後再加上現場查證"},{"start":243.297,"end":248.2,"text":"可是因为过往没有这个经验我想问处长你们现在心里面有没有任何的规划"},{"start":274.817,"end":295.823,"text":"來 處長 謝謝你直接回答跟委員說明那確實現在國外的經驗很少包括國內的經濟也跟國外也有一些差異事實上可以參考的案件事實上我們也去參考那整個參考國外的經驗也都是以個案來處理這些案件那會裡面確實會依照"},{"start":297.463,"end":324.865,"text":"法規跟安全跟國際的一些經驗來審慎的去評估跟現場去確認台電公司的各項作業要符合法規跟安全的要求所以步驟都是按部就班循序漸進再推動現行你們可能會用到哪些法規你們的用法依據大概有哪些會裡面最原則就是核管法接著就有核子反應器設施運轉執照管理辦法"},{"start":325.586,"end":346.294,"text":"另外 河岸會也參考國際的做法 我們也訂立再運轉計畫的審查導則所以河岸會自己有訂立一個再運轉的這個法則對 審查導則好 審查法則 好 這樣看起來 與法是有所依據的那但是呢 到現場考察又是另外一個問題 對吧那預計第一次召開實質討論會議會是什麼時候 目前有規劃了嗎"},{"start":350.739,"end":373.512,"text":"我們現在進行實質審查那也請委員提出審查意見所以委員會先就文件來就提出意見沒錯然後第一次開會預計是什麼時候應該是在五月中下旬好 五月中下旬那開完會多久會把相關的會議記錄公告上網還是要等全部都審查完全部都開會完才會公告上網"},{"start":375.304,"end":378.794,"text":"跟委員說明,就是審查提出審查意見"},{"start":381.001,"end":408.701,"text":"当中如果审查的意见经过委员确认是可以接受的话这部分我们就会上网好 那我们非常期待看到后续所有专家学者给予核安会还有给予台电的意见那如同刚刚你说的因为就国外来说就台湾来说我们相关的案例都太少了所以我想跟你分享另外一个我不确定我们之后核安会跟台电会不会做这个事情根据国际原子风险评估组织INR他们有说明"},{"start":409.562,"end":432.1,"text":"在核电厂它其实有这个所谓预纲曲线的问题就在最初的磨合期跟后续的磨损期相关的风险是比较高的所以有非常多事情需要通盘考虑但时间有限我就不再细说但是为了确保这些安全的顾虑可以好好的被照顾好好的被倾听来下一张所以世界各国为了提升核能安全促进"},{"start":433.12,"end":460.663,"text":"經驗交流大家都有一個所謂的國際同儕審查那包含國際原子能總署還有歐洲核能安全監管機構組織都有類似的事情然後透過請世界各國的專家核能監管的機構研究單位甚至是各國的電力公司專家去到不同的國家進行審查進行經驗交流進行評估報告給予這個經驗的交流非常的重要我不確定後續台電需不需要進行國際"},{"start":462.264,"end":477.685,"text":"國際間的同儕審查來 何安惠 處長您直接說明好了就我們所知道台電公司會委託國際同儕的審查好 那這個會含在所謂的剛剛自主安全計畫裡頭嗎還是額外再一份報告提交給何安惠"},{"start":479.005,"end":504.725,"text":"他會先自主安全檢查完成之後就委託國際讓我們也會檢視國際同儕的一些審查意見好所以看起來有我剛剛第一部分說的核安會內部的實質討論會議審查會議同時台電會同步進行國際同儕審查相關的報告也會出爐所以這兩件事情基本上是並行對嗎時間軸是一直往下走的並不是誰先等誰出來誰再往下工作對嗎"},{"start":506.692,"end":535.053,"text":"應該是台電公司自主安全檢查之後交給同儕那我們自己內部也會執行那個審查評估另外我們也會再去看同儕審查針對河山廠比如說台電公司提出來河山廠這部分的意見這樣順序非常清楚了所以各自有進行中的工作但最後台電要再把這個國際同儕審查的報告再交給河安會 對嗎所以河安會再往下不管是考察或是"},{"start":535.894,"end":557.569,"text":"相关专家学者会议的时候会同步看到台电这个报告好听起来目前为止我们很多在意的事情看起来河南会也都有掌握我觉得这个状况听起来是蛮好的但是我们直接跳到下一张再下一张好我们看到河南会在4月20说4月28早上10点钟要在屏东县横村镇公所三楼礼堂举办"},{"start":558.069,"end":583.428,"text":"和安会审查和三场运转执照换发案的地方说明会上一次在3月18号的时候我就提醒和安会我认为这个说明会要扩大办理希望能够来的乡亲愿意来的乡亲都尽量让他们能够参与我想知道目前你们在地方上宣传的状况或者是如何确保我们希望可以更多乡亲可以参加这件事情目前和安会做了哪些努力"},{"start":585.858,"end":608.546,"text":"請主委或是處長回答都可以跟我說明在上個禮拜我們包括我跟同仁有去恆春鎮跟滿洲鄉拜訪那個村里長跟鄉長鎮長等等那也說明河岸會辦理這個地方說明會的目的那也希望說透過鄉長跟地方的代表村里長的"},{"start":609.406,"end":626.414,"text":"然後說明幫我們轉資給村裡鄉親知道說會裡面會辦這個活動也邀請他們踴躍來參加會裡面的地方說明會跟意見表達你現在有辦法確保你覺得或是大概的掌握大概會有多少鄉親到現場來"},{"start":628.786,"end":643.924,"text":"有這個掌握嗎目前我們會積極去收集跟了解啦好我覺得啦聽起來還是有一點消極應該是說大藻村長里長鄉長這些都沒有問題可是我認為地方上"},{"start":644.826,"end":659.326,"text":"大家要如何去想像我身為一個可能不懂核電的人我也不懂你的法案我也不懂什麼叫運轉計畫我更不懂什麼國際審查對鄉親來說在意的就是安全的這件事情我如何在這個會議中可以得到我要的答案所以我認為我們應該要更積極的"},{"start":661.329,"end":678.861,"text":"去跟地方的鄉親產生連結所以要拜託處長也要拜託主委拜託用各式各樣的方法透過不同層級的民意代表把你們要辦說明會的訊息廣發下去甚至當天要有里長廣播非常的local但是我都覺得非常的重要這件事情拜託你們更加積極"},{"start":679.722,"end":705.757,"text":"我們希望4月28號當天早上有盡可能的多人來參加然後讓你們收集意見讓你們傾聽民意確保最多的意見可以被你們帶回來和安會作為一個重要的參考依據甚至我們也希望如果可以同步開放線上讓更多人可以參與討論同時發言好嗎線上的部分有可能嗎我想跟委員報告我們會有現場直播"},{"start":707.398,"end":736.112,"text":"好 会有现场直播如果任何一个人想表达一些可以在我们河安会的官网上有个特别区域可以提出意见我们会回答所有的问题好 那我们到时候也一起宣传我认为把更多的声音带回来是重要最后 谢谢主席来河安湖无虞 河沸有解 社会共识持续发展再生能源我认为也是河安会要跟我们大家一起努力的好吗好 谢谢主委 谢谢处长 谢谢主席"}]}},{"id":"168662","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168662","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5880b40c5769f17d5f26d14bda48eafa1db81b4b2a735029d978cd518bf5946246a27f61d679685ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林思銘","委員發言時間":"09:20:33 - 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謝謝好 謝謝林思明委員接下來我要請第三位我們林志豐東吳大學法律系的教授李教授 謝謝 歡迎您"}]}},{"id":"168661","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168661","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5880b40c5769f16002c44224011f2369f826bc43123a8d29d978cd518bf5947a26c39964b221c95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張智倫","委員發言時間":"09:16:48 - 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謝謝副主委本席只是現在先把這些問題給提供出來希望說這個海巡海委會後續還是要跟本辦公室大家一起來討論因為我還沒講到好像之前管碧玲主委也特別提到說建載機一台"},{"start":295.184,"end":318.266,"text":"這個將近一台無人機要將近一億一億的這個新台幣來去做購買所以本席在這邊一直在跟你們索取相關的資料不管是維修保固或是經費我們都支持可是到底這些無人機我們買不買得到到底買多少價格到底有沒有廠商承包這都是非常重要的一個問題那我接下來再來請教"},{"start":319.247,"end":333.778,"text":"主委這也是最近的新聞有關於我們這個無人機我們的國產化到底未來要如何來推動因為我們知道我們海巡我們政府有一個無人機國產化的一個採購政策那過去我們有一個"},{"start":338.281,"end":352.09,"text":"選疫型無人機的計畫在2023年9月有一家叫做眾碩科技以2億元得標可是後來他的這個因為他未來的無人機沒有過關然後全案解約那現在"},{"start":353.868,"end":381.749,"text":"我們把這個案子重新把它改成一個叫做忠誠忠誠無人機的一個計畫現在由這個台灣採光得標可是他當時得標的時候他是說他會引進這個美國廠商的合作不過在他得標的資料裡面其實我們可以看到內容他是說其實無人機的產地是拉脫維亞的產地所以本席想要說這是過去是一個得標後"},{"start":382.589,"end":406.403,"text":"沒有辦法順利結標的一個案子那現在重新得標到底現在整個的狀況我們的無人機的國產化還有我們現在的產地整個標示是不是可以請副主委來說明一下我們這邊特別跟委員報告我們一定是支持國機國造部分但是這個案子在標之前它是在我們無人機採購指引之前所以特別跟委員說明"},{"start":407.364,"end":426.19,"text":"那第二個部分這家公司原來是拉脫亞沒有錯但是他是被美國公司購買所以他是全美國公司這個沒有沒有飛鴻供應鏈的問題所以他的飛機是高階的而且他的性能是非常優秀的部分那另外一個部分就是我們現在買的無人機部分我們除了"},{"start":427.21,"end":446.778,"text":"剛剛委員有特別提到說我們的建載機價格很高主要是因為我們的滯空的能力還有它的導控距離還有它的性能跟徵收的這些相關的設備的價格的問題這邊特別跟委員說明那是不是可以請副主委等會後的時候有詳細的資料再可以提供給本辦公室可以嗎會後的時候再跟委員說明好 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謝謝召委 請工部長工部長 早我先請教一下 這個政協會後然後中共宣布了十大的措施那這十大措施其實對台灣有什麼樣的影響我可不可以先請教一下 部長怎麼來整體判斷"},{"start":29.902,"end":53.442,"text":"因為這十大措施其中只有大概只有一項跟經濟部比較有關就是什麼對於中小企業有一個什麼交易的事實上他寫得很模糊也不是很清楚他到底那我問一下部長主管經濟部的部長你也擔任國發會主委你怎麼來看待這十大的措施對台灣會不會有什麼樣整體性的影響因為事實上台灣現在來講"},{"start":55.023,"end":82.619,"text":"以去年經濟成長率是達到8.68%今年可能超過7%對ADB最新的估計所以這幾年來甚至於是這五六年來台灣的經濟都非常非常好那也沒有受到什麼中國的會台的什麼措施的影響台灣本身已經走出自己很好的路而且從之前的很依賴中國到現在其實我們也因為中國很多的時候它的"},{"start":83.819,"end":111.785,"text":"開放跟禁止 開放禁止之間其實是沒有太多的可遵循的一些依據的啦那往往可能政黨之間有一些談判或什麼的就四方他認為的利益多就丟出來所以其實對我們的很多的不管是產業或農業產品其實很多不確定性所以我們現在走向了國際的這個路線那依賴度也大量的降低跟中國之間的這個所以這個反倒是讓我們的經濟其實我們的股市也都上到了非常好的一個數字"},{"start":113.126,"end":127.183,"text":"我們認為這是一個正確的道路但是我還是要問一下裡面我看到很多包括他設立很多的條件這個一二點是國共兩黨的什麼常態化溝通或青年的溝通那甚至於很多的都還要"},{"start":128.124,"end":155.381,"text":"設定比如第五個所謂的這些農業產品還要建立在堅持在九二共識包括很多漁業的還要符合條件甚至於食品的註冊等等也要符合條件或者是符合什麼需求或者是連電視劇啊紀錄片動畫還要導向正確這些東西當設定這麼多條件的時候部長你怎麼看第一個它有真正的效果第二個是這樣的條件適合嗎"},{"start":157.845,"end":181.123,"text":"事實上之前有些措施是它在2016年陸續本來都有已經開放的項目它都把它取消掉那當然是政治上的考量我剛才也提到了從2016年我們也從替代市場或分散市場也獲得了很好的成果所以它現在再次的開放的話那我們當然也不要設有條件是最好的"},{"start":181.323,"end":198.579,"text":"因為原來就沒有那些條件他要給你停也不一定要什麼樣的具體的理由啦那他要開放的時候又設了一些條件那他要條件你無法達成無法那也是也是他說了算嘛所以就是說兩岸之間如果說可以有比較穩定的"},{"start":200.141,"end":218.418,"text":"簽訂什麼樣的確定的合約就是政府對政府如果可以簽訂比較拒定合約而不是說單方面的就是說我今天說怎樣明天說怎樣那對於企業界來講是非常困擾的一件事那我問一下部長跟特定政黨接觸過後直接就放出這些東西出來你認為這樣它有沒有具有背後的一些政治目的"},{"start":219.319,"end":238.957,"text":"我認為還是如果說政府對政府還是最好的方式一定要政府對政府嘛你再跟政黨談過任何東西你跳過政府跳過中華民國政府想要來跟談的話事實上這並不會達到實質上的效果所以還是必須政府對政府那我再問那這背後有沒有特定今年年底要選舉有沒有選舉的目的"},{"start":240.191,"end":268.562,"text":"介入選舉的目的這個我就沒有辦法去預測但是我還是覺得就是說部長應該不是沒辦法預測是不方便回答啦我認為這個部分大家都看得很清楚啦他一定有背後的目的啦他想要去影響想要去試圖去干擾嘛所以我希望這一塊政府還是要更以審慎妥善處理一些作為啦不要讓這樣的產生對於整個不管是所有在政策上面或所有上面的負面上的一些效果"},{"start":269.222,"end":286.012,"text":"我再來看一下其實我們這幾年經濟狀況其實相當好從去年剛剛提到了8.68到今年7甚至有稀微又更好這在台灣以這樣的狀況來說是非常不容易的包括我們的股市狀況所以我們現在走在一個正確的道路上那我們認為剛剛部長也提到我們的交流貿易不應該設有任何政治前提"},{"start":289.834,"end":316.35,"text":"當你有涉有政治前提當你跳過了政府跟政府間的談判跟溝通跟交流的時候其實就會出很多問題而且它有可能形成是單一片面式的決定我是要給就給我是要停就停這對於我們來說是一個非常大的風險所以才會有所謂的養套殺這樣的狀況的出現部長應該同意這樣的看法吧是是是那我再問一下陸委會說他們掌握了情資中共動員以上逼證"},{"start":317.31,"end":344.154,"text":"部長有這樣的狀況嗎這個我就不知道 略微才知道部長應該也有所那個那我們希望這些都是要審慎妥善去做注意的就是說我們還是必須要穩建住台灣是走在一條正確的道路上面那應該要想辦法讓國人更加的清楚堅定我們這樣的一條道路這才是一個比較穩確的道路那如果是透過政治的手段"},{"start":344.634,"end":361.843,"text":"或者是透過有一些政治的目的的話應該讓國人更加的清楚對我們政府目前的方向正確的方向更加的有信心這才是台灣應該要走向全世界一條道路那不要受到特意的政黨或特意的政治的目的去干擾這反倒會影響到台灣未來長遠的經濟發展"},{"start":363.464,"end":367.605,"text":"台北在抱怨說耗水費的問題然後應該要認為耗水費那我先問一下全國的電網是不是很多台北的供應那是不是應該要負擔所有的一些輸電的成本"},{"start":387.591,"end":405.38,"text":"我們來看一下這個表啦齁台北市的發電量到了2025年2.9億度它的用電量164.1億度將近161度超支了這麼多而這些電都其他從外線送來的可能中部從南部送上來的這些所有的過程中都有輸電成本這個要不要計算進來"},{"start":407.566,"end":422.912,"text":"我們當然是希望說所有的國人受到的待遇都一樣盡量不要用區域性來看這個但是這個也是希望那我問你部長這耗水費其實是大戶用的名詞並不是給他這樣用的全台灣也沒有一個水庫要收"},{"start":424.372,"end":444.972,"text":"因為大用戶就是用水用比較多的這個大戶我們當然希望他可以就是這是耗水費的目的嘛不是給你利用這種少個名目來收這個錢的嘛那更何況是台北市的發電量遠少於他的用電量那你發電這麼少的狀況下你還要想要收這個耗水費這真的是"},{"start":445.913,"end":449.116,"text":"所以部長覺得這個不合理吧那我另外要問的是那輸電成本的部分要不要計算一下"},{"start":465.551,"end":494.527,"text":"輸電成本這也是台電重大的成本啊你為了光為了要把電送進去台北市花了這麼多錢這個要不要算一下是是是部長這要計算一下好不好你不計算人家就幫你幫你算了很多你他算他有利他沒有算到他讓國家為他付出多少成本他沒有算到台電沒有算到經濟部為台北市付出多少成本整天在算著這些我認為這已經佔了全台灣的便宜這麼多的人還用這樣的角度在思考我認為是非常缺缺乏格局也非常缺乏氣度的"},{"start":496.116,"end":504.805,"text":"這個我請那個台電能不能計算給我 輸電的成本從中南部或其他縣市送進去台電要的成本可不可以給我 一個禮拜你可以把這個資料給我"},{"start":506.414,"end":535.251,"text":"我們會估計一個數字但是也跟委員報告就是我們輸電成本依照現在的電價公式是平均全國平均啊 對啦但是你如果是在地有 你有你的電廠的話你當然可以降低成本嘛你電力要從南部送上來 中部送上來那成本絕對是高很多嘛這些成本算給我們至少當台北市的市長 首都市長缺乏格局講出這種話的時候至少我們要告訴他我們都還沒跟你算你的輸電成本花了這麼多錢台電為了這些花了多少錢"},{"start":536.051,"end":561.236,"text":"所以我認為要講之所謂的耗水費的時候先來談談這件事情再來區別電價的部分我之前提過很多次了去年提過不應該南部發電然後其他部發電部分還有不同的電價至少對於發電的城市給予公平合理的對待就算少一點點也是一種對發電城市的一個尊重我提了很久了部長好像還沒有提出任何的評估報告給我什麼時候給我"},{"start":562.951,"end":581.658,"text":"是,事實上我們有在算,然後他們也跟我報告了一下,但是中間還在持續的這個我們看一下啦,區別電價的部分,包括韓國,包括英國,德國都已經有評估報告出來韓國是暫緩實施,英國是沒有實施,德國沒有實施,至少人家有個評估報告出來,部長"},{"start":582.708,"end":608.314,"text":"多久可以給我評估報告 至少給評估報告我沒有要求你馬上實施但是至少給我一個評估報告從去年講到現在 總諮詢講到部門諮詢都沒有什麼時候給我 多久今年做完啦 不能今年 我沒辦法接受這麼久因為台電公司有一個委託報告我不認為這個這麼困難一個月內可以完成嗎 一個月內給我可以嗎你們要不要給而已 我不認為你們手上沒有一個月給我好嗎"},{"start":609.906,"end":618.103,"text":"好兩個月給我好不好我要一個看到一個評估要不要做不做是另外一回事應該區別店家的評估報告要出來因為其他國家都已經有出來了好好謝謝好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168668","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168668","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5880b40c5769f1bff54be497456ae3f38d440c98c629e729d978cd518bf594a7c63afbaf1f10e85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"09:29:38 - 09:41:25","影片長度":"00:11:47","會議時間":"2026-04-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請環境部部長、國家科學及技術委員會、交通部、經濟部、內政部、農業部、衛生福利部、國家發展委員會就「我國氣候變遷調適現況檢討與全球調適目標接軌之推動情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查中華民國115年度中央政府總預算案關於環境部主管預算案。(公務及非營業特種基金預算案)\n三、審查中華民國115年度中央政府總預算案直轄市及縣市政府一般性補助款環境部主管部分預算。\n四、審查環境部函送財團法人環境資源研究發展基金會等4家財團法人115年度預算書案。\n\n【預算案僅詢答，115年4月30日下午5時截止收案】\n【專題報告及討論事項綜合詢答】\n\n【4月22日及23日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-04-22","start_time":"2026-04-22T09:29:38+08:00","end_time":"2026-04-22T09:41:25+08:00","duration":707,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":5,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-5-26-7"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.127218750000001,"end":7.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.87784375,"end":8.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.067218750000002,"end":11.792843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.87721875,"end":13.007843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.649093750000002,"end":16.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.53471875,"end":16.922843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.36159375,"end":56.039093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.282843750000005,"end":35.63721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.039093750000006,"end":84.47346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":83.30909375,"end":83.98409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":84.47346875000001,"end":99.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.12096875,"end":99.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":99.17159375,"end":100.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.33596875,"end":115.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":115.94534375,"end":125.61471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":125.93534375,"end":135.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":135.67221875,"end":136.49909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":136.65096875,"end":140.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":141.59534375,"end":146.62409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":146.99534375000002,"end":163.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":164.42721875,"end":169.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.25346875000002,"end":191.59596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":192.06846875000002,"end":198.09284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":198.44721875000002,"end":199.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":199.64534375000002,"end":201.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.70409375000003,"end":204.42096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":204.48846875,"end":207.28971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":207.32346875000002,"end":207.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":207.66096875000002,"end":245.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":245.41034375,"end":252.68346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.61159375000003,"end":286.07909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.31534375,"end":288.22221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":288.37409375000004,"end":290.48346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":290.77034375,"end":291.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":293.31846875,"end":306.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":307.25721875,"end":312.20159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":312.20159375000003,"end":342.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":342.52596875,"end":396.79596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":397.45409375,"end":402.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":402.97221875,"end":435.25409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":433.29659375000006,"end":433.73534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":435.91221875,"end":457.68096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":458.37284375,"end":475.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":467.09721875,"end":467.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":475.34909375,"end":488.76471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":481.62659375000004,"end":482.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":482.03159375,"end":482.26784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":482.60534375000003,"end":482.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":482.84159375,"end":482.85846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":482.85846875000004,"end":482.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":488.84909375,"end":489.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":489.96284375000005,"end":519.1059687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":519.59534375,"end":549.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":525.48471875,"end":525.7547187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":550.4597187500001,"end":551.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":551.97846875,"end":560.3147187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":560.7197187500001,"end":569.7647187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":569.96721875,"end":574.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":574.45596875,"end":592.2253437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":588.7490937499999,"end":589.1372187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":591.88784375,"end":616.8290937500001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麻煩我們的環境部部長有請部長部長早今天是世界的地球日 過去我們常常"},{"start":17.458,"end":24.861,"text":"在談氣候變遷的減緩但今天我們要特別來設定調試作為質詢的主題因為我覺得調試面對的事實上是現在已經發生的極端氣候的風險我們必須要誠實且要能夠去有效的去做應對我先問最根本的問題現在環境部負責國家氣候變遷調試行動計畫的"},{"start":41.406,"end":56.849,"text":"整體推動跟成果彙整那環境部對於我們氣候調適的成效是只負責收集彙整公開資料還是也負責評估國家整體的調適到底有沒有成效"},{"start":57.23,"end":84.162,"text":"好 謝謝委員理論上是我們要協助督導每一個部會但是因為我們過去對調適的預算掌握不是在環境部的手上所以也跟委員坦承的說我們大概都是他們送過來那可能是希望他們寫得更好並沒有一個更強制的一個手段所以沒有辦法像我們這次過去我們在推動淨領本部其實很強大的力道跟各個部會一起積極合作"},{"start":84.542,"end":97.891,"text":"部長如果各部會都說自己有做地方政府也說自己有交報告但最後高溫淹水乾旱海岸的災害跟健康風險沒有下降那環境部難道沒有一套那個判斷標準嗎來提供參考嗎"},{"start":100.813,"end":125.18,"text":"對 謝謝委員 這個就是我們未來如果在第四期我們很想要積極推動的因為過去是112到115這段期間其實這當中其實我是覺得力道還不夠就是報告可能是寫了之後真的執行又是另外一件事情可是這事實上是環境部的職責所在因為各部會的調適成果如果不夠具體不夠有效的話那環境部如果也沒有能力去要求補正的話"},{"start":126.02,"end":146.353,"text":"只是被動收件的話我覺得對這件事情不會有任何幫助尤其我們現在你也知道迫在眉梢已經要二到三度那甚至你剛剛有預計可能事實上是到四度高溫一度都會造成人際的傷害暴力的"},{"start":147.385,"end":168.161,"text":"這樣的一個可能會增加到4到6%那都不是好事更何況部長下一期的116年到119年的國家氣候變遷調適行動計畫10月就要呈報行政院了現在進度到哪裡各部會那個方案已經進入到指標整合還是仍然在各自體計畫"},{"start":169.568,"end":198.598,"text":"跟委員報告目前行政院就是從國發會那邊已經確定下一期的調試領域的這個這個領域範圍那現在各領域正在撰寫那現在比較需要花一點時間的是這一期的調試計畫會有我們去強調跨領域的這個合作尤其是像高溫的這樣的議題是當然我覺得高溫這一題也不會是單以環境部可是衛福部這些都也有關聯性那"},{"start":199.673,"end":214.365,"text":"COVID-30已提出備輪調適的指標我不要求59項的目標你都全部照抄看台灣應該建立自己的GJA的對應指標我特別比較關心我想部長也知道我這兩年來質詢的"},{"start":215.956,"end":241.622,"text":"就是消除貧困跟生計環境部不能夠能不能建立氣候風險跟社會脆弱度的指標說清楚誰最脆弱在哪裡需要什麼服務由誰負責成效怎麼看因為心理健康跟心理社會支持也應該納入例如受災人口的取得的支持的比例這也都是我過去從兒少跟社福的角度來一直來跟部長請教的氣候調適的問題所以我要問環境部會不會"},{"start":245.483,"end":252.45,"text":"建立臺灣自己的GGA的對應指標那我在意的這些議題會怎麼處理會不會放進去"},{"start":254.343,"end":281.31,"text":"就是GGA的指標目前有59項但是因為它是全球性的所以它也要求每一個國家在試用的時候還是要因地制宜那我們現在去看它的七大領域其實跟我們目前在調試的八大領域是相合那我們現在也特別強調就是對於像脆弱群體這個部分因為我們已經訂了風險評估作業準則那要求每一個領域必須把它的脆弱度"},{"start":281.73,"end":306.683,"text":"然後危害跟暴露去做一個中整的考慮然後納到他的領域別的條式作為署長我們不知道你剛剛講我自己在看我們跟他們之間還是有差的就是消除貧困跟生計跟文化遺產跟知識那你也知道我很在意的就是消除貧困跟生計我不知道你剛剛講說兩邊都是合的可是我怎麼看"},{"start":307.355,"end":329.18,"text":"中文看起來就是不太一致 我知道這邊到底有沒有什麼樣的落差這個問題我有在關注 那我們目前的做法是我們預計大概10到11月的時候我們會希望舉辦一個兒少的氣候的一個博士的一個論壇邀請小朋友來談 因為我們現在有一個國家的氣候變遷對策委員會 可是沒有針對兒少"},{"start":330.68,"end":353.274,"text":"那兒少其實那些有些小朋友他們已經跟我提出一個要求了所以我們現在要整合各界一起來辦一個兒少的因為他的項目跟我們成人想的的確是會不一樣對那當然另外一個貧困也不是只有兒少因為我們的老人社福機構都是所以部長認為下一期的116年到119年的調適計畫不能只"},{"start":355.775,"end":384.936,"text":"納入國際趨勢更要把目標具體化過去很多調適工作都偏在宣導面下一期的目標能不能從我們計畫完成率改成風險降低的指標不要只寫發幾把扇子辦幾場宣導印幾份的一個手冊而是要看熱傷害跟熱相關死亡率有沒有下降因為過去我一直在推兒童安全的時候會常問政府說不要告訴我你辦幾場活動告訴我兒少的死亡"},{"start":385.596,"end":402.723,"text":"事故傷害死亡有沒有下降同樣的問題也是在這邊我們也希望看到的是這個那你的水資源的運用也應該要有漏水率的降低這個具體的成果目標所以部長訂出這種跟調適風險直接相關的成果的KPI有沒有困難能不能做到"},{"start":403.223,"end":418.804,"text":"我們已經針對這個熱就是未來的切面例如說熱大概我們東亞鄰近的國家大概有針對幾個一個是水資源一個是很熱這兩個是最多的那我們應該優先針對這個因為水包含缺水跟這個水太多洪災"},{"start":419.725,"end":435.124,"text":"所以這個熱跟水的議題是我們列為一個橫切面的指標那如果這個指標定的話就可以減少說委員您特別提到這是我們第二期的報告他可能將那時候的確都是宣導為主並沒有實質上的指標的效益"},{"start":436.065,"end":457.436,"text":"還有上一期有很多領域超過半數的項目都列為優先計畫以健康領域為例14項裡面有10項是優先計畫那我問的是環境部怎麼判斷什麼叫做優先超過一半都列優先的話還叫優先嗎這到底是應對台灣最關鍵的氣候風險還是只是給各部會自己列"},{"start":459.32,"end":474.672,"text":"這個是因為以前在進行的時候沒有做風險評估所以每一個領域他都自己部會自己去覺得優先他就列優先那我們因為這一期有開始做風險評估那一定必須要依照風險評估的結果然後來排定優先順序"},{"start":475.433,"end":492.039,"text":"所以下一期我們應該會找出關鍵的風險指標優先來處理真正需要解決的問題嗎那我覺得就期待部長台灣不是聯合國氣候變化的綱要公約的締約方"},{"start":492.819,"end":518.892,"text":"但臺灣長期自主接軌國際規範推動氣候的治理那COP30之後全球的調試目標已經進入到指標化跟成效追蹤先環境部的調試行動計畫年度成果報告比較像行政體系的內部的成果公開來讓大家知道臺灣是不是也應該思考國家的調試計畫能不能建立更公開更制度化的審查機制"},{"start":520.356,"end":545.412,"text":"謝謝委員 這個部分是蠻好的一個做法因為我們本國不是聯合國會員國所以我們要送我們的NDC或調適的報告基本上送的就是已讀未回我們希望委員提到的建議說如果我們未來提的不管是NDC檢探的報告或是調適報告其實如果有一些國外的專家來幫我們審查然後讓各公眾的參與我們過去已經做了台灣本地的"},{"start":545.812,"end":559.198,"text":"很多的公聽討論但是如果有一個國際的事我非常的贊成所以我希望比照我們的CRC或CRPD的人權公約國家報告的審查模式因為我們一樣也不是在聯合國會員國"},{"start":560.822,"end":587.188,"text":"CRC或是CRPD都是邀國際委員來幫我們審視我們到底跟國際的接軌的落差到底是什麼所以我們希望這個能夠請我們的環境部開始示範有辦法嗎可以 包括委員因為我過去在民間的時候在開放政府還有開放國會我都有參與那這個當時就有類似的一套程序在進行那比較麻煩的是說當時很嚴格說這個錢不能由政府出"},{"start":587.668,"end":616.033,"text":"因為有政府出就有BIOS所以我們未來可能要解決這個問題我們就可以來克服我們也一樣期待我們希望能夠盡速的去做部長最後延續我們的選擇問題你年初的時候提到環境部跟國科會正在做跨部會討論成立國家氣候調適任性的中心那我支持成立更有整合能力的機制只要設計合理的話我也願意跟部長一起來做推動但我必須先問清楚現在已經有行政院的永續"},{"start":617.133,"end":632.438,"text":"好的一個氣候變遷跟進行轉型的專案小組那氣候法理國發國發費也是氣候變遷調適相應肆意的研擬跟推動四項的主辦機關之一那科學研究也有國科會的氣候台灣氣候變遷的推"},{"start":635.979,"end":658.764,"text":"推估資訊跟調適的知識的平台環境部自己也有氣候署跟國家環境研究院那所以想問部長說這個中心如何避免跌穿架屋的問題它必要性是什麼和既有的機構的權責怎麼去做區分最重要的是這個中心未來會不會有三種能力預算連結能力政策管考能力跟跨部會要求改善的能力"},{"start":659.965,"end":687.547,"text":"謝謝委員 這個其實過去的雨傘太多現在就是要一個大雨傘來支撐整個調試我們過去包含的NCDR就是國家災害防救科技中心他們有一個TCCIP在做這個事本部有兩個但是我的觀察是太多的連結就造成說彼此的分工雖然有分工但是等於沒有合作所以我們就希望這次也感謝各個國科會願意來一起來支持一起來推動這個事情"},{"start":688.007,"end":703.584,"text":"所以因為時間關係我們後邊就請環境部在一個月內就下面這幾個事項包含我們剛剛講的國家氣候調適的韌性中心設置的規劃都一併交報告給我這邊好沒問題謝謝委員謝謝謝謝林愛玄召委的發言"}]}},{"id":"168666","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168666","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5880b40c5769f1b6233078a706e10963685f3e6e8cff8529d978cd518bf594bf58e434f61d1a005ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡春綢","委員發言時間":"09:27:52 - 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有請主委主委好 委員好"},{"start":31.843,"end":57.559,"text":"請問主委目前因為日本已112年起排放含川沸水入海執行台灣沿岸還有離島還有鄰近海域及北太平洋的一個公海海域這個海水的一個川覆攝起樣分析海水覆攝的一個監測機制"},{"start":59.46,"end":75.985,"text":"那要请问这个机制是如何,那真的能够确保我们的监测数据是具有高度的公信力吗?是的,这部分我请扶持房副组张组长来回答这个问题。"},{"start":77.497,"end":105.426,"text":"報告委員那我們這邊是執行的是跨部會的一個一個海域的環境監測所以是會分別請那個農委會還有海委會以及衛福部來幫我們在取樣那在實驗室的分析裡頭我們有偵測中心輻射偵測中心跟國運院那他們在這兩個的實驗室的一個分析都有都有達到那個那個TAF的一個"},{"start":106.366,"end":128.219,"text":"那個標準的一個認證那在這個監測的數據上我們也就是秉持著資訊公開的一個方式我們每週都會把即時的一個數據然後在我們的一個平台上來顯示然後會有一個那個偵測的一個儀表板讓這一些的資訊都是能夠第一時間來去做一個傳播"},{"start":135.204,"end":146.773,"text":"那針對日本的一個福島寒川匯水排放和安慰對未來的一個疫劑排防次數還有那個時程的掌握又如何來因應呢"},{"start":147.654,"end":166.971,"text":"那這部分我們就是持續的密切關注日本的在這個源頭排放的一些資訊那依照日本的目前的一個做法從2023到現在他們大概每個年他們的會計年初他們就會公布這一期就是未來一年他的一個排放計畫"},{"start":168.032,"end":187.067,"text":"那接下來的每批次的排放的一個前置的一些分析的作業我們也都會密切的掌握日本這邊公布的一個資訊那還有IAEA也都有去做國際的一個同儕我們也都有的掌握那在這部分的一個資訊剛剛也是講我們都會去秉持資訊公開會發布那個一些報導"},{"start":192.972,"end":202.295,"text":"好 謝謝政府從那個112年起要推動那個海域環境輻射的一個建設計畫那今年是這個計畫的最後一年對不對那請問一下對於河安會對於116年到119年又有一個建制國家海域放射性的一個物質污染監控的一個任性網那請問那這個計畫呢在跟之前的計畫有什麼不一樣"},{"start":223.342,"end":249.295,"text":"首先那這是一個延續性的所以當然過去我們執行的一個海域環境輻射監測計畫我們都會如期的來去執行那因為再來就是我們過去因應日本排放川水我們有建立了很多的一個技術所以不管是在分析技術或者是海洋擴散的技術我們接下來在這個監控韌性網我們希望他把它做得更到位"},{"start":249.755,"end":259.224,"text":"那包括我們過去是可能比較偏向這個這個日本到台灣的這個東部海岸所以在這個監控韌性網我們會著重在台灣海峽所以針對一些離島的一些一些監測的能力還有我們核種的分析的能力我們都會再透過這個監控韌性網來去做一個進一步的一個提升再提升"},{"start":273.058,"end":294.403,"text":"那再來我要請問一下主委目前中國大陸在沿岸建了非常多的一個河邊那這個台灣跟大陸的一個距離非常近最近不超過200公里所以這個對台灣來講影響"},{"start":299.184,"end":312.972,"text":"很大那我要請問主委就是說中國大陸目前在沿岸它有多少的電廠在運轉你有掌握嗎60座60座的核電在運轉那又有多少正在興建中35座"},{"start":321.024,"end":346.304,"text":"三十座三十五座三十五座那這個三十五座如果完成的話可能就是世界第一囉目前是看齊了事那請問主委對台灣周邊在海域的一個環境的影響你要如何確保台灣這個海域的一個輻射的安全我們已經做這方面有規劃了這些請張主任回答這些詳細的規劃"},{"start":350.496,"end":379.594,"text":"報告委員就是像剛剛我們也了解這個中國大陸沿岸有這一些的一個核電廠所以我們在監控任性網這邊剛剛有講我們會著重是把這個台灣海峽的一些監控的能力給補強那在這部分我們也會針對離島會設置一些即時的一個監測站等於主動性的來掌握我們那個台灣海域在這一塊的一些的輻射的一個變化"},{"start":380.094,"end":394.582,"text":"那如果說這核電剛好有天災或是有人為的一個失出發生意外那核安委又要如何來掌握這個情況然後立刻來回應應呢有沒有這樣的一個危機的一個預備"},{"start":396.65,"end":422.836,"text":"那當然剛剛來講除了我們在因為天災最怕的就是一些地震或是那個所以在大氣的部分因為首先會有一些大氣的一個偵測我們在全台灣有設置了63站那這都蠻高靈敏的所以一有變化的時候我們就會比較就會知道那當然資訊的一個一個查證一個搜尋也就是我們在這部分後之後我們就會來去做一個一個"},{"start":424.196,"end":433.64,"text":"因為大陸那邊的透明度我們比較擔心所以我們會比較質疑所以未來的風險我們必須一定要關心的同時也要提醒我們主委"},{"start":443.823,"end":460.468,"text":"還有我們所有的部會代表我們對中國大陸的一個核電廠我們不能視而不見然後我們必須要事先要做好完善的一個準備跟因應畢竟好或壞這個對七億還有我們台灣的一個海域都必須要承擔的"},{"start":463.67,"end":491.642,"text":"如何在現在兩岸的情勢非常的一個緊張那又要如何來確保我們有跟海峽兩岸核電安全合作協議要有在執行的一個過程如何是 報告主委我們有跟大就是中國大陸有海峽兩岸核電安全合作協議那目前每季都會做一個跟對方做一個通聯測試確保通訊上的一個就是通暢以上"},{"start":493.586,"end":517.558,"text":"那我們也希望說能夠提醒就是我們必須要一直強化我們兩個海峽目前的一些河岸的安全我們一定要確定的來掌握那從113年到今年的4月以下來講都顯示通年測試的一個過程"},{"start":519.879,"end":534.344,"text":"是順利 那請問你要如何來確定在目前兩岸的緊張之下這個兩岸的應變通連是很暢通的是 報告人 到目前為止北季的測試都是暢通的"},{"start":536.139,"end":559.506,"text":"好那希望是真的是這樣這樣的一個掌握啦那最重要就是我們要確保這個測試的一個數據是具有那個高度的一個公信力啦那河安呢應該要建立在自主的一個監測還有要先有預警有預警的這樣機制我們都要靠自己做好最好的準備以上謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"168671","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168671","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5880b40c5769f1c75c0bf227745f62a31e0b39ac3e37f829d978cd518bf5947fc55635423f6f005ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃仁","委員發言時間":"09:38:49 - 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去年明訂去年八月一號就要實施了實行不過退不會在一百一十五年的這個預算子女教育補助費編列四億九千萬那和往年的額度差不多顯然是來不及將上校以上退出於金人子女的教育補助費編進去那請問一下"},{"start":69.947,"end":96.655,"text":"這個制度在去年的8月1號就應該實施法規的部分已經完善了但是現在還沒有發放的原因是什麼是行政院卡住了還是因為輔導會不敢編補助這個經費主委你來說明一下報告委員跟委員說明一下這件事情大院通過之後我們完成法定的程序公告然後開始審議會"},{"start":98.955,"end":124.146,"text":"發給辦法完成之後我們在去年九月初送到行政院那院裡面主要考慮整個要更周延那就是所謂的軍公教都能夠資源共享都能把這件事做好所以花園實際要做一些整合跟審查那我們這段時間呃分成三個層面不斷的跟行政院保持聯繫那第一個層面就是業館的各處組"},{"start":125.647,"end":152.59,"text":"他要去聯繫窗口第二個是我們的副主委第三是我本人院裡面所有的長官也好還有所有的政委以及各處我們都一直保持聯繫在積極在作業那麼這筆預算我想我們輔導會可以用退出役官兵退休給付這個預算來支是沒有問題的而且就是發給辦法下來我們都可以用連續預算來支應這是沒有問題跟委員所說明"},{"start":153.57,"end":177.864,"text":"因為這個本來就得以審查在朝野已經釋出了割退一步在這樣的一個氛圍之下本期期待上校以上退儲役軍人殖民教育補助費今年就可以真正的實行但是因為在預算中並不包含這個部分請問一下主委如果今年下半年要落實"},{"start":179.686,"end":185.861,"text":"若是這個部分的補助,這經費要從哪裡編出來?年度的經費可以"},{"start":188.004,"end":214.238,"text":"跟委員報告我是退出給付處的處長那我們基本上在我們的退出以官兵退休給付的人事費向下有編這一筆錢是四億九千萬那我們的退出業務費可以由這個他人事費的向下來檢討支應這個是沒有問題的只是因為現在發給辦法還沒有通過過的話我們一定會可以做一些補發以上報告好"},{"start":215.078,"end":225.038,"text":"因為我們就按照依照預算法的第30條會期年度開始9月9個月前也就是說每一年的4月"},{"start":226.561,"end":253.453,"text":"行政院必須要先訂定下年度施政的方向所以現在福大會差不多要開始要準備編列明年的一個概算那今年度的預算來不及編那在這一次的編列明年度的預算的時候要把上校以上退出於職女教育補助費是不是可以編進去了是不是"},{"start":255.373,"end":269.739,"text":"是可以把他編進去那另外就是在去年的十一夜這個輔導會的一個業務報告的時候向主委爭取希望榮民到金一"},{"start":271.39,"end":278.577,"text":"經驗就診也可以免除健保部分的一個負擔但是作為向本席承諾輔導會會啟動這個工作那讓農民不會面臨到這個選擇精英或農業的兩難也可以和錦霄海海巡"},{"start":290.408,"end":313.949,"text":"移民、空勤人員、現役退、現退役人員享受一樣的待遇所以據本席了解那輔導會經法規內部的研究後今年的3月30日已送出行政院會診各部會的意見諸位是否了解一下行政院的意向那行政院會不會支持"},{"start":314.696,"end":332.058,"text":"是 谢谢委员指导这个案子我们4月初把这个就是有志农民到军医院开放到军医院去看病这个案子我们完成了内部的作业之后送到行政院在4月初那么韩文送到行政院审议那么行政院目前"},{"start":333.079,"end":359.192,"text":"各處相關的各處主計還有相關的各處在做一個審閱會辦當中我們一直都保持聯繫有掌握那目前狀況都正常我們現在等他下來之後我們就可以來做本席在這個地方希望行政院我呼籲行政院因為這個案子大家都非常的支持也認同為什麼"},{"start":360.017,"end":383.105,"text":"因為這個是截變的一個事項、一個項目嘛對不對整合了所有的這些警、消、海巡、移民、空警人員及現退役人員享受一樣的待遇這樣的一個狀況我想諸位你當初去年11月的時候提到這個案子你非常很認同的也希望"},{"start":383.732,"end":389.767,"text":"呼籲行政院趕快通過這個案子你們都已經呈報了嘛我們繼續來辦好 謝謝各位謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"168670","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168670","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5880b40c5769f1747fb7fa3973d0c463812774c6aab6af29d978cd518bf59485564259685e84df5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪毓祥","委員發言時間":"09:35:07 - 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確實是最高的那也是因為有一些比較長期的任務會希望公園業來做執行 而且是同和所有的發展"},{"start":244.262,"end":257.761,"text":"所以我們在施工業在張院長的帶領下齁那也跟這個都明白我們節省時間你知道我要表達的是什麼就是說我們需要是說各個領域的法人我知道委員的意思了解謝謝那"},{"start":259.864,"end":285.679,"text":"也沒有對公園不慶啦就是基本上我是希望說大家是團結合作然後讓這個小法人這些來講各有其專長領域那業學界的話呢我是也支持雖然它預算的暴增當然你所訂的這些的一些題目但是可能外界可能比較會擔心的尤其啦就是說是不是就是某些特定的產業或特定的一些廠商"},{"start":286.559,"end":308.44,"text":"那這一陣子我接到比較多的就是在國際研發中心這一塊也就是我們補助美光設這些研發中心什麼等等但是這樣子我們本土的比如說南亞華邦電我覺得這一點他們會有點不太服氣雖然你南亞科後來也有補但是我覺得這一點的政策"},{"start":309.361,"end":333.781,"text":"以後可以稍微考慮一下因為他們也實在是很有錢了啊外商也不需要我們啊所以我這個建議是可以以本土的科技本土的廠商的研發這樣子的設計為主啦好不好這我請郭師長回去了不用現在回答回去好好研究一下好那接下來的話呢這個是因為長年我都待在其實我比各位可能都熟啊"},{"start":334.79,"end":361.741,"text":"那現在各個計畫這個資源切開稅第一個是我們部裡面我們有技術師產發署做一堆東西不管是AI機器人無人機IC設計應該也涵蓋了技術師跟這個產發署那這個是部而已所以我是希望部長將來在統籌的時候就是不管無人機尤其現在是無人機然後這些晶片那我覺得這個東西部要統籌一下因為不然到時候"},{"start":363.022,"end":377.861,"text":"這個整個總體就算是部長要扛那部長有這個東西之後還要再去跟跨部會不管是國科會書發布這些東西的會診不然的話我們在審預算的時候我們一定就會覺得說你們很多都是什麼"},{"start":378.792,"end":406.27,"text":"分工不均對不對然後這個預算科目會重疊預算重複資源的投入那到時候我們要救者比如說有功勞的時候到底算誰的失敗的時候算誰要救者還是 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113這個還是一個瓶頸那114"},{"start":497.918,"end":515.715,"text":"一是去年應該有做一些東西了現在這些技術的缺口是不是有補起來對現在我記得應該是希望2027年是不是把它補起來這樣子就是說晶片的開發或等等的一些情況因為我為什麼會這樣問就是說因為這個地方的話你們編了很多的預算"},{"start":521.32,"end":545.422,"text":"無人化創新科技這講給全國觀眾聽都很奇怪無人化創新科技無人化多元應用關鍵研發測試場域這次也是那個無人載叫無人載具產業發展統籌型計畫因為它有分成幾個部分無人化的部分一個部分就是場域的建設包括在這個嘉義的這些都是無人機還是無人車還是無人船還是"},{"start":547.449,"end":553.493,"text":"主要是無人機的部分所以無人機這邊的話全部都是無人機但是現在無人船也有場域我現在就是說這幾個都是無人機"},{"start":561.889,"end":577.023,"text":"目前來講主要是無人機比較多因為他都編不同計畫的名字他不一樣一個是場域的開發一個是科技上的補助然後另外當然還有就是就是我們各部會有一個統籌型要買無人機那個預算"},{"start":578.184,"end":603.209,"text":"對 所以我的意思說這可能在上面因為我們在審預算的時候就是這個很confuse就是你到底這邊全部都是無人機還是無人載具因為無人載具又更廣嘛 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454.37億全數給你如果被刪掉如果被大刀一砍請問你的防洪建設怎麼做"},{"start":160.886,"end":174.955,"text":"還不只你這樣喔我現在只講到的是你水利署的部分你經濟部所有的這些重大的工程包括你要補助中小微企業的振興包括這個支持我們的供應鏈甚至包括了幾大產業如果總預算的審查到時候在協商的時候大刀一砍"},{"start":185.611,"end":201.422,"text":"請問你經濟部要怎麼做你到現在五月了你的執行率都講不出來過去你們到了期中應該大概執行率都會執行率大概都會到50%左右了嘛很多的重大建設可能是在往前走那你現在的執行率是多少"},{"start":202.122,"end":215.424,"text":"不敢說也不可以說也不知道要怎麼做你的所有的東西水利工作都只有做前置作業啊那接下來怎麼辦那你馬上要編明年的預算了耶那明年預算要怎麼編要怎麼執行"},{"start":218.334,"end":239.187,"text":"我補充一下因為在今年執行的時候因為新興計畫還沒有辦法執行所以我們目前只能執行延續性計畫但是因為延續性計畫我們在執行的時候也會比較保守是因為怕到時候立法院有一些決議所以我們目前整體的公務預算到三月底截止大概是六成六十七左右"},{"start":240.441,"end":262.354,"text":"公務預算啊到3月底以前已經完成67喔對不含新興我們沒有把新興放到分配的基準裡面所以光延續性計畫所以你的自災防洪的計畫這位任性計畫全部都算是新興計畫嗎很多都是算新興計畫嗎這些都完全還沒做嗎是不是這樣好那部長我要請教那你們在進度上能不能追得上"},{"start":263.345,"end":285.206,"text":"就是到今年年底以前 因為我現在不知道今年的總預算什麼時候會過啦現在開始第一次的報告 對不對接下來我們可能還有預算提案的審查然後還要再進到院長的協商所以我不知道最後拉到最後什麼時候會過因為我看這個台灣民眾黨還提了一個案說今年又要研會到8月31號"},{"start":287.128,"end":304.318,"text":"有沒有可能8月31號才通過今年度的總預算然後9月份開始我們應該要開始審明年度的總預算的那你們經濟部怎麼辦 你所有的這些治災防洪的工程怎麼做有沒有一個 就是你心裡有沒有一個底"},{"start":305.56,"end":327.902,"text":"所以剛剛署長特別提到就是說我們前置作業可以做的就盡量趕快先做那這還是在等這個預算所以我們期待說這個預算可以趕快通過是啊 我是這樣想你的那個包括是新興的預算或者是說自災防洪的預算我希望你們給我一個到目前為止的執行率"},{"start":328.863,"end":355.219,"text":"好不好 到目前為止你所有的這些治災防洪地方都在等嘛我們很怕接下來颱風期來了要怎麼辦這些治災防洪的工程進度執行到什麼樣的程度這些是不是能夠請經濟部或者是水利署下個禮拜給本席一個報告 好不好那接下來剛剛這個其實我們賴委員也特別請教到"},{"start":357.264,"end":385.358,"text":"台北市政府的確是一個非常奇怪的單位非常奇怪的市政府我第一次聽到有水庫用水然後要去跟人家收耗水費的用水利發電然後要來跟人家收耗水費而且還要跟台電收錢水利署過去我們在經濟文匯審查過耗水費的這個法案設計其實就在我當召委的時候通過的什麼叫耗水費"},{"start":386.653,"end":399.647,"text":"保證你可以說明一下嗎 泡水費的定義是什麼制度上它應該是用在什麼地方是跟誰徵收你可不可以把這個定義把它說明一下或者是署長來"},{"start":401.179,"end":416.134,"text":"報告委員 耗水費的最大的精神是希望能夠節約用水使用者付費的精神那目前耗水費是針對每天用水300噸的一個大戶來進行徵收工業大戶嘛 工廠大戶嘛 對不對"},{"start":416.935,"end":442.544,"text":"那我們剛剛特別委員在水利發電算是耗水嗎不是 水利發電在我們耗水費裡面並沒有這一項而且不會進行徵收其實全台很多水利發電我們都不徵收任何耗水費用因為他們有浪費水源是嗎 有原則好 那請教一下就經濟部的立場上面現在台北市政府要來跟你們收耗水費"},{"start":443.504,"end":458.667,"text":"第一個這個耗水費的收取也是在中央作業嘛不是在地方政府嘛對不對這個是中央的權責中央的權責那地方可以來收取耗水費嗎那這耗水費要怎麼收第一個他本來就不能收嘛第二個"},{"start":459.988,"end":481.248,"text":"這個水庫的水是屬於天然資源不是屬於台北市政府的水報告委員這水資源是最重要的是最國家的嘛不是像你台北市政府的不是像你蔣萬安的嘛沒有錯水利發電用水來做發電這個發電用的有可能是在台北市使用嘛是不是這樣"},{"start":486.829,"end":513.405,"text":"或者是你們的電力是怎麼配置因為它其實我們所有水庫操作都依照他們水位高低去進行調整以目前水税水庫它的一個水位是90幾%是屬於高水位其實本來就可以進行調控這個水量沒有任何浪費行為因為它有防洪的需求跟調控的行為所以我們進行這個水力發電其實兼顧到下游的用水跟整個水庫的高低安全的"},{"start":514.305,"end":539.716,"text":"部分去調控,並沒有任何浪費水的狀況水利署不贊成收耗水費,來我想請一下台電人家現在要幫你收錢,獅子大開口那個跟委員報告幾件事,第一件事是水利發電不是用掉水,我們是利用了水的未能可是完全兩個不同的概念,這是第一點我們以前都學過這個事你學過,他不一定有學過啊"},{"start":540.882,"end":568.112,"text":"台北市政府不一定有學過啊所以對我們來講這是知識可是對他來講這是很新奇的東西啊這個叫耗水啊這我也覺得匪夷所思第二個你用水利來發電然後要來跟台電收取這些費用那我請教你台電第一就是香港潘啦第二就是台電把大家當傻子那你台電在這個興達電廠的發電我們要不要來跟你收取空污費"},{"start":569.79,"end":577.601,"text":"那個跟委員報告就是說一個國家的制度可以這樣亂搞嗎其實台電"},{"start":578.971,"end":600.434,"text":"因為本來就是那個水流下來下游的集水站那個取水場他會去用到這些水中間水沒有沒有沒有損耗那如果說有多發電有出來的水其實我們也都是真的水庫的管理局的同意才會發這一些電因為他下游還可以收起來用那因為翡翠的水源非常的大"},{"start":601.215,"end":614.047,"text":"那監察院調查的狀況是說他的水源有很多的水量應該有更多的妥善運用但是我發電影響的量非常的少我最近這一段時間他裡面提到自己提到的說我們是115萬噸"},{"start":617.31,"end":632.541,"text":"但是被檢討的是五億噸所以那個是完全不同量級的事情我想要說就是說其實就水費來講台電公司付給所有的水庫也都有付費比方說真文我們有付費石門有付費"},{"start":633.722,"end":658.27,"text":"翡翠的平均單價其實相對來講是這三個水庫比較高一些我想說我們真的台電公司沒有特別對翡翠水庫不好我想說在這邊跟委員說說明我想這個事情我還是期待包括台電或者是水利署你們都應該要對外說明清楚什麼叫耗水費什麼叫水利發電"},{"start":659.912,"end":685.185,"text":"如何水力發電 然後這個利用水的位差來做發電之後這個水的流向去哪裡你可能覺得這是常識 這是知識但對台北市政府來講他不懂 他不知道所以我感覺你們要多花一點時間來教導他們要讓他們有這些正確的知識跟觀念好不好"}]}},{"id":"168667","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168667","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5880b40c5769f1bff54be497456ae3a31e0b39ac3e37f829d978cd518bf59423f4da59ad76bcb95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅美玲","委員發言時間":"09:29:38 - 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或者是新住民也好可以在這網頁的這個禁用性來講的話其實是加強了非常的多所以呢本身是希望這個部分呢我們警察榮總體系呢都可以來設置這個新住民諮詢的這個專頁因為我看陳院長已經站在這裡準備要針對這部分來回答所以這部分你要再加強說明一下嗎"},{"start":94.727,"end":101.147,"text":"真的非常謝謝委員,當天你的指示我們就做了你剛才的指示加上印尼,今天下午就做好"},{"start":101.727,"end":124.823,"text":"今天下午就做好,所以表示說其實要做的話其實是很快的今天就做好,如果還有沒有什麼語言需要的話再交代一下是是是,這個部分的話但是我們都是兄弟一員是我們做一條心,我們做他們都跟一起做是,我自己也是想說一定要比照來做辦理因為可以當天一下質詢台就可以馬上處理的話我想這個門檻沒有很高啦,所以其他的"},{"start":125.504,"end":128.988,"text":"院所應該要來比照辦理今天這個部分是要來肯定我們北榮北榮是龍頭其他各種院都會效仿是是是我是希望下次我在進入到各個醫院的這個網站的時候都可以看到類似的這個網頁專線"},{"start":142.364,"end":160.262,"text":"OK好那再來呢也是跟我們榮總有關係的就是我是看到了這個審計部的審計報告我本來是想說可以拿到114年的這個資料可是目前還沒有出來那我現在看到的是113年各榮總住院病患的人日數"},{"start":161.323,"end":183.583,"text":"那我們可以看到就是說我們這個各種種整體的實際的人日數是比這個疫情少了7.0%其實就是少了減少了25萬人那我有看到裡面的資料有提到就是說北榮市因為玉里鳳林台東分院及屏東"},{"start":184.945,"end":200.519,"text":"榮總醫事人力不足所以導致住院人日數減少那這個我們可以理解可是很有趣的是整個數據上來看我們看到中榮喔中榮居然他是增加的他的這個住院病患人日數是比預期的增加了36555人"},{"start":204.142,"end":220.454,"text":"那我反而是要問說中融怎麼做得到因為其他的都有面臨這個醫事原因不足的問題因為我看到屏東融種甚至是比原來一起的少了30%以上所以中融怎麼做得到的"},{"start":221.574,"end":250.455,"text":"為什麼您的數字謝謝委員那主委給我們的指導就是要照顧好我們的醫護同仁所以我們目前各項福利措施還不錯所以目前並沒有人力短缺的問題那3月32號我們還得到衛福部我們友善護理職場認證醫學中心典範獎所以我們目前沒有任何的護理或者其他醫治人員短缺的問題所以我們可以繼續召開所以而且我們一直"},{"start":251.195,"end":267.874,"text":"可能口碑還不錯所以服務量能一直成長以上報告報告委員可以容我說幾句話是是是 都可以來說那本容是這樣子因為我們每一個月拿到的衛福部的三班護病比搭票獎金是所有公立院最高的"},{"start":269.095,"end":287.112,"text":"但是現在的治療跟過去的治療不一樣龍總的床很多現在漸漸的門診化譬如說化療以前要住院現在都已經導入門診所以我們門診成長了住院降低了這樣住院降低我刻意把它降低為什麼呢可以讓我們的護理師不要那麼辛苦"},{"start":287.893,"end":303.283,"text":"而且讓病人可以降低他的指數他不用住院他不用花錢當天往返所以我們的門診這個全球的趨勢門診化是重要的那但是護理的照護品質委員你相信我應該是效能濃度最高的"},{"start":303.922,"end":307.883,"text":"OK好剛剛那個我們陳院長有提到就是這個有關於就是說對我們的住院病患人日數減少可是我們門診的這部分有增加我確實有看到這個數據有113年的部分確實是台北榮總是提高了7.77%然後屏東榮總呢雖然說他的這個"},{"start":328.968,"end":339.294,"text":"住院病患人數比預期少了百分之三十以上實際上他的這個門診病患的這個人數是增加的"},{"start":342.544,"end":365.746,"text":"跟委員報告那我是114年上任那屏東總去年的護理師進增加是68人那今年到4月為止目前我們招募護理師是100人就是截至到上個禮拜那今年有新開一個加護病房那4月份新開一個急性病房那今年會一共會再開"},{"start":366.647,"end":384.846,"text":"後面七月跟十月會各再開一個急性病房所以今年的住院人數跟預算數應該會達標那另外我們在做重度急救責任醫院的部分比期程提早了一年希望明年可以達標這樣OK好那再來呢高雄榮總要說明一下嗎"},{"start":387.136,"end":403.054,"text":"謝謝 也謝謝委員的指導那剛剛兩種的話其實醫院的收入 整體收入來講我們三家總院的現在整體收入都很持平穩定財務大家都很穩健那我們這個收入主要還是門及住那現在委員所提的是住院上面的一個情況"},{"start":403.755,"end":421.01,"text":"那目前我們高雄農種在住院情況跟其他種類都一樣都還蠻相對穩定的那這是正常的一個起伏目前在門診上面也是持續的在114年上面持續的一直往上提升那住院大概就持平情況是穩定的謝謝委員的指導所謂穩定的話是說你們唯一我看不到114年的這個"},{"start":422.971,"end":438.084,"text":"因為今天的報告好像也沒提到這麼細節的東西像高雄榮總跟屏東榮總基本上來講我在數字上看到的是沒有達到預期的標準唯一超標的我只看到的是中榮"},{"start":438.604,"end":451.676,"text":"那當然剛剛的解釋是說也許就是說以我的住院門診人數雖然少了可是我可能就是著重在門診的這個部分可以理解啦而倒是屏東對啊屏東我還是得要問一下因為像之前的話你們113年喔你們比預期少了百分之30以上其實這個是這個數字上來講的話是落差是比較大我不曉得114年這部分有沒有改善"},{"start":465.085,"end":483.026,"text":"我們114年的住院人數有快速增加我們的總醫療收入是增加5.3億醫療收入來自於門診病患增加跟住院人數增加所以目前整個招收護理師的情況都相當的不錯"},{"start":483.667,"end":506.763,"text":"所以到目前為止都是在護理師的招聘這部分是順利的是不是目前來講的話因為之前我看到審計報告是說因為我們醫護人力不足才會造成目前所看到的這個榮總的住院變化人數是少的原因是因為來自於這裡所以目前都有補足是不是各個我們各個榮總體系都有補足這部分是不是"},{"start":508.075,"end":520.516,"text":"報告委員113年應該是護理師不夠導致各病房的收支率沒有辦法滿載那目前護理師都不僅遭受順利而且都逐漸在增開新病房"},{"start":520.987,"end":537.314,"text":"OK 好 謝謝因為時間的關係因為我覺得我們榮總一直都是我們醫療體系的這個標杆那當然我們看到數據上有一些落差的時候會來想了解到底是發生什麼事情那我們當然是希望能夠更好OK 好 以上謝謝謝謝委員指導"}]}},{"id":"17367","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17367","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b41997f390c3528e7a173d75aaeaa133fc374ea3989744b4b1d480c4e0b4ea52b4f2184fcdc0608c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2026-04-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期財政委員會第2次公聽會（事由：召開「保險法第一百七十七條條文修正草案」公聽會）","type":"Full","date":"2026-04-22","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2026-04-22T08:39:24+08:00","end_time":"2026-04-22T10:45:00+08:00","duration":7536,"影片長度":"02:05:36","委員發言時間":"08:39:24 - 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在場的委員還有政府機關代表來參加我們保險法第177條條文的修正草案公聽會那我們這一次辦公聽會最主要的目的呢"},{"start":1439.541,"end":1441.782,"text":"因為這個議題保險法177條它關係到我們全台灣37萬保險業務員長期以來最真實勞動的處境它的契約性質的法律的爭議當然是有一段很長的時間但是我希望"},{"start":1457.952,"end":1484.424,"text":"今天來的學者專家還有各工會的代表我們可以先從最核心也就是屬於勞動契約勞僱關係的類型開始討論我們接下來可以進一步從最沒爭議的情境後續先做一些處理讓我們主管機關可以提出明確的保障藍圖來回應接下來包括在教育體系包括在教育訓練的部分要如何真正回歸從業人員的需求"},{"start":1486.445,"end":1511.076,"text":"那我觉得现在包括保险业务员的问题是制度长期没有跟上我们现在从业人员需求的问题然后包括在保险业同步在接轨我们现在F-17跟TWICS之后我们有没有机会包括劳动部提出的保险从业人员劳动权益阶段的相关性质的一些相关的目标包括"},{"start":1511.536,"end":1516.158,"text":"譬如說契約條款的透明化還有包括申訴的管道還有獎懲的制度等等我們接軌包括IFRS17到TWICS之後我們後續可以開始思考契約條款的透明化申訴的管道相關的一些機制包括短中長期獎懲的機制我們可不可以有更明確的做法"},{"start":1534.525,"end":1550.849,"text":"我希望透過今天公聽會都可以聽到更多學者專家還有工會代表的相關的意見這個是我們今天辦理公聽會的前兩大目標那我們也希望透過今天這個公聽會包括相關保險業的從業人員有機會接受不同角度專業培育的"},{"start":1558.271,"end":1569.524,"text":"相關的一些教育訓練當然我們現在國際化之後很多相關的一些教育訓練包括教育的議題我們都可以跟公部門更多的單位隨時接軌然後確保相關教育訓練的相關的品質"},{"start":1573.749,"end":1599.922,"text":"那这些教育训练也有机会让工会来去做后续的承接然后金管会可以严密设立相关保险教育训练品质的审议机制明确的包括在核心课纲的最低要求并建立相关的师资的认证等等然后包括课查、查核跟抽查的机制我们希望透过今天这个工厅委有三大目标"},{"start":1600.442,"end":1625.573,"text":"然後可以請聽一下我們包括我們公部門請管會還有包括我們學者專家還有我們工會代表的意見以上這是今天我們辦理公聽會最主要的目的讓容許我先來介紹一下我們現場的委員還有包括今天來參加的學者專家政府機關代表在現場有非常長期關心我們保險法修法的林思敏委員 歡迎"},{"start":1630.168,"end":1651.63,"text":"以及我們今天在現場的有羅俊瑋教授是中正大學法律學系的羅教授歡迎您我們東吳大學李志豐教授還有我們工會非常優秀的代表張維浩張代表中華民國保險業務人員協會的秘書長"},{"start":1656.152,"end":1680.768,"text":"还有我们中华民国保险业全国总工会的理事长张伟儒张理事长欢迎您还有包括我们中华民国保险业全国总工会刚介绍过了接下来我们非常重要的官员我们金管会副主委陈副主委陈燕良陈副主委欢迎您"},{"start":1682.677,"end":1711.006,"text":"我們保險局的副局長蔡火炎蔡副局長歡迎您謝謝我們勞動部勞動司的劉正彥劉專委歡迎您謝謝我們法務部的廖江縣廖參事歡迎您還有我們中華民國人壽保險商業同業工會的副秘書長金義惠金副秘書長"},{"start":1719.63,"end":1737.037,"text":"我们今天在现场有很多关注这个议题列席的我们民间工会的好朋友中华民国全国总工会温秘书长温中宇温秘书长欢迎您我们中华民国全职总总工会的林雨桥林秘书长"},{"start":1738.728,"end":1762.384,"text":"謝謝 歡迎您還有我們攀明員 我們保險業職務工會的攀明員 攀理事長 歡迎您新北市保險業務人員職業工會的中召集人 歡迎您還有我們來自桃園市保險業務人員職業工會的林俊彥 林理事長 歡迎您 謝謝宜蘭縣保險業務職業工會的陳義德 陳監事召集人 歡迎您"},{"start":1769.708,"end":1793.586,"text":"還有我們中華民國產業保險商業同業工會的林副主委 林勝志林副主委 歡迎您中華民國產業保險商業同業工會的蘇氏娟蘇專員 歡迎您 謝謝還有我們桃園市保險業務人員職業工會的林俊宏林理事長 歡迎您 謝謝"},{"start":1795.731,"end":1816.305,"text":"好 以上是我們今天在現場的列席的還有參與公會還有參與今天公聽會的所有的代表同仁好 那我們現在等一下與會的發言我們今天是八分鐘結束一分鐘前會按鈴提告原則上專家學者按照簽到的順序發言那我如果需要"},{"start":1817.406,"end":1834.051,"text":"再请随时到主席台来做登记每位同仁是五分钟全部发言完之后请行政机关就业管的全责整体的做后续的回应那我现在就先请第一位学者专家罗俊伟教授发表意见欢迎您谢谢"},{"start":1848.235,"end":1871.716,"text":"主席還有這個陳副主委還有各位學者在家大家好那今天非常高興有這個機會那麼受到我們財委會邀請那麼來對於這個保險法177條條文修正草案來做一些的一個個人意見的一個說明那當然就是說在這個各位知道就是說在保險產業這個是一個對國家非常重要的產業"},{"start":1875.259,"end":1879.104,"text":"那麼在國家對於這個所謂的一個保險這個部分也是採取這種所謂的高度監管的這樣的一個措施那麼所以呢在這樣的一個情況之下那麼在這個保險業務員的這個部分那他除了說"},{"start":1893.603,"end":1913.141,"text":"是跟這個所謂的一個消費者接觸的第一線那麼另外在我們的保險法裡面也對於這個所謂的一個保險業務員的一個這樣的一個管制那麼授權主管機關那麼去處理所以在這樣的一個情況之下我們在這個所謂的一個這個保險法177條這個部分"},{"start":1918.769,"end":1943.512,"text":"那在保險法177條這個部分那麼就有對這個相關保險業務員的一個這樣的一個管制來做了一個規定那麼當然就是說我們在現實的一個環境之下那麼在過去那麼在這個司法院大法官會740號做出來這個解釋之前那不管是在這個民事法院或行政法院"},{"start":1944.193,"end":1961.83,"text":"甚至在這個金管會或者是這個勞動部或是以前的這個勞委會那麼他對於這個所謂的一個保險業務員的一個這樣跟保險人的一個法律關係那麼都有不同的一個意見那麼在這些不同的意見那大概都包含了這種就是說"},{"start":1962.63,"end":1979.985,"text":"它可能是一個雇佣契約或承攬契約或為人契約或居間契約或者是甚至混合制的這樣的一個狀況但是呢在事實上來講的話那我想大概在實務的一個作業我們可能還要再把它區分成這種所謂的一個人壽保險或者是在這個產務保險的一個情況"},{"start":1983.248,"end":2001.365,"text":"那麼在產物保險的這個部分目前看起來它的一個問題似乎是比較少一點那比較多的這個部分可能是在人壽保險的這個部分那但是我們在人壽保險的這個部分的話我們在實務上看到他們的一個企業的型態可能有這個所謂的一個承攬跟僱傭的這樣的一個爭議"},{"start":2006.209,"end":2010.154,"text":"那麼再過來的話就是說我們在保險法177條它對於這個所謂的一個業務員的一個監管的這個部分它是規定就是說在保險業務員的這樣的一個資格取得相關的一個這些措施必須要由這個主管機關訂資"},{"start":2024.853,"end":2034.402,"text":"當然就是說在我們這個目前在保險業的主管機關就是我們這個金管會的這個部分所以呢我們在金管會在依據這個保險法177條這個授權他就去制定了這個保險業務員的一個管理規則"},{"start":2040.788,"end":2051.636,"text":"那麼當然就是說在保險業務員的管理規則這制定出來以後這個到底是不是就可以來確定我們這個保險人跟這個保險業務員之間的一個法律關係那麼同樣的也在實務上面也是產生了非常多的一個爭執"},{"start":2059.522,"end":2066.187,"text":"那麼到後面就是到這個大法官會議去解釋的時候我們這個大法官會議解釋740號他就特別去提到就是說那麼我們對這個保險人跟保險業務員的這樣的一個契約的一個法律性質他不能夠唯一專門以這個保險業務員管理規則的這樣的一個規定那麼來做這個決定"},{"start":2084.639,"end":2106.53,"text":"那他必須要就像現在各位在畫面上看到的就是說他這個勞動企業的一個類型他應該是這個當事人可不可以來自由的決定勞務給付的方式那麼有沒有自行負擔業務的一個風險等等的一個事項來加以決定那麼因此在在這個大法官會議解釋740號解釋做出來以後"},{"start":2108.911,"end":2128.039,"text":"那麼各界對於這個所謂的一個保險人跟保險業務員的一個法律關係那麼仍然是在持續的在做這個爭執那麼當然就是說在這個時候我們應該可以來檢視一下這個保險業務員管理規則的一個法律性質一般的一個說法那麼"},{"start":2129.259,"end":2145.85,"text":"大概在國內的這個法學界大概都是認為說保險業務員管理規則那麼它就是一個由保險法授權給主管機關制定的這樣的一個法規命令那麼當然就是說剛剛也跟各位去報告過按照740號的大法官會議解釋"},{"start":2146.67,"end":2166.329,"text":"那麼是認為說不能夠把這個所謂的保險業務員管理規則來當成認定這個所謂的一個保險人跟業務員之間勞務契約這個類型的一個唯一的一個依據尤其呢在這個台灣的這個保險業務員管理規則第三條第二項他也特別的去規定就是說那麼業務員跟他"},{"start":2168.07,"end":2186.9,"text":"所屬的公司所簽訂的這個勞務契約那必須要依據民法或其他相關的法定來法令的規定來辦理那麼所以呢在目前實務上的一個作業或是在法學界的一個看法那麼就是說如果單純的以這個所謂的保險業務員管理規則來觀察的話那麼不能夠唯一以這個規則來決定那麼這個雙方當事人契約的一個類型"},{"start":2197.445,"end":2205.638,"text":"應該要去考量這個所謂的一個保險人跟這個業務人之間的一個契約的一個內容那麼如果今天在這個"},{"start":2207.065,"end":2222.856,"text":"保險人已經將這個保險管理規則業務員管理規則納入這個契約的內容那麼在做從屬性判斷的時候那麼是可以把這個所謂的一個這相關的內容來納入這個考量所以在這樣的一個情況之下在這樣的考量之下我個人是認為說那麼在實務作業來講的話保險業跟這個業務同仁之間的這樣的一個契約的性質還是要按照個案來加以認定"},{"start":2237.025,"end":2240.347,"text":"加以認定我看到有委員的一個提案認為說在我們現在保險法177條之一的這個部分要把它加入相關的勞動契約、教育訓練這些四項的規定"},{"start":2258.456,"end":2287.575,"text":"那麼我個人的一個看法是認為說保險法它是針對這個所謂的一個保險業監理的這樣的一個法律那麼似乎不宜把這個所謂的一個保險人跟業務人之間的這樣的一個勞動契約的一個相關的一個情勢在保險法裡面去加以規定我個人是比較認為說這個應該是回歸到我們這個勞動基準法那麼或相關的這種勞動法令的部分的一個規定"},{"start":2288.796,"end":2312.481,"text":"那第二個來講的話那麼當然就是說今天這個公聽會的一個提案的內容那麼也有提到就是說是不是說應該要由這個所謂的一個金管會那麼來對這些所謂的一個業務員的教育訓練獎懲制度等等事項來加以規範那麼這些事項目前看起來大概都是在這個保險業務員管理規則已經有相關的一個規定了"},{"start":2316.502,"end":2330.895,"text":"那麼再過來的話就是說如果按照我看這個委員的一個提案就是說在保險法177條裡面去加入相關的教育訓練或獎懲制度或申訴管道這些的一個事項"},{"start":2331.916,"end":2354.675,"text":"那麼就像剛才跟各位報告就是說我個人認為說在保險法是大概比較這個屬於這個保險業監理的這樣的一個法律那麼像相關這些跟這個消費者權益或者是保險業的經營比較沒有直接相關的一個事情那如果把它置於這個保險法的話那麼可能不是那麼妥適"},{"start":2355.976,"end":2381.405,"text":"那麼再過來的話我們這個後面還有一個提案就是說可不可以來藉由這個公司協力來完善前開的一個規則那麼當然就是剛才也跟各位去報告就是說因為在保險業務管理規則那麼這個是所謂的一個法律授權制定的一個命令它必須在法律授權的範圍內那麼來加以規範它是不可以去逾越這個法律授權的一個範圍"},{"start":2382.885,"end":2406.233,"text":"那當然就是說在這個歷年的司法的一個判決裡面對這個部分那麼也有若干的一個說明那麼最後呢在這個最後一個這個這次公聽會的一個提案那麼就是說可不可以由來由這個工會來辦理保險業務員教育訓練的可行性那以我個人的一個觀察我們現在"},{"start":2408.554,"end":2420.023,"text":"目前相關的這種保險教育的這樣的一個訓練課程有相當多的一個機關那麼都在承辦那尤其在我們保險業務員管理規則裡面也沒有特別的去規定說哪一個機關或是哪一個單位才能夠來辦理這個部分所以在這個部分我個人是認為說"},{"start":2430.871,"end":2459.548,"text":"那麼如果相關的一個工會具有這個保險業務員教育訓練有關的這種專長的課程依據現行的一個規定的話大概都是可以來辦理這個所謂的一個保險業務員教育訓練的這樣的一個內容那麼以上是我個人對這個問題的一個發言謝謝好 謝謝羅俊遠羅教授您的發言謝謝您第二位我邀請我們林思明委員"},{"start":2466.892,"end":2495.202,"text":"好 謝謝主席主席還有我們陳書瑋還有我們蔡副局長以及勞動部的劉專偉法務部的廖參事以及所有與會的各位工會代表還有我們的學者專家大家好大家午安大家早安我想今天非常感謝我們召會排定保險法第177條這個條文修正草案的公聽會"},{"start":2496.903,"end":2505.852,"text":"我想這個議題是為了解決我們全國37萬名的保險業務員長期處於累勞工非勞工的灰色地帶的一個問題我們透過法律明確來規範勞動契約工作條件申訴機制等事項"},{"start":2516.323,"end":2529.86,"text":"並要求金管會與勞動部共同來訂定規範建立一個制度來規範相關的責任保險法177條的修正我想已經勢在必行"},{"start":2531.101,"end":2545.421,"text":"我們對照金管會在110年與115年今年這兩次所作出的公聽會的一個報告內容幾乎我看到是如出一策核心立場完全沒有改變"},{"start":2546.842,"end":2563.856,"text":"顯示說這個主管機關面對保險業務員的勞動權益的問題還是在迴避還是在迴避消極的應對政府的這個立場並沒有這個有多大的一個改變也拿不出真正的一個改革的一個方案"},{"start":2564.875,"end":2589.809,"text":"我想金孔會長期的主張就是說勞動契約應回歸民法勞基法保險法只管這個市場的秩序但是我們的問題在於說現實早已證明這樣的分別適用是不切實際的如果勞動部能夠解決這個爭點不會持續拖到今天所以保險業務員在事務上"},{"start":2590.609,"end":2618.282,"text":"既然受到保險公司的高度管理卻又常被認定為承攬或者委任關係這個導致三個問題第一個就是勞權的保障不足第二個是爭議的認定困難第三個權責模糊所以基於這樣的一個考量點這正是我們法律應該介入釐清的一個情境所以金管會一再強調"},{"start":2619.443,"end":2647.93,"text":"保險法及規範市場的秩序與消費者的保護將勞動契約問題切割給勞動部來處理但問題是保險業務員長期處於一個非典型勞動的灰色地帶金管會無從主張金管會主張無需修法到不宜修法會造成法規進合的立場以法規進合跌床架屋這個理由為反對修法"},{"start":2648.61,"end":2677.443,"text":"本質都是拒絕承擔制度責任金管會一方面強調市場紀律與消費者的保護卻對第一線的業務員的勞動處境視而不見甚至以契約自由為由放任制度模糊我想金管會近年來確實提出一些措施例如說調整懲處期間強化與工會的對話開放部分教育訓練合作"},{"start":2678.263,"end":2693.353,"text":"而這些都只是行政層級的修補完全無法解決結構性的問題法條若不修改只做行政的微調也就是在拖延改革完全沒有觸及制度的根本"},{"start":2694.614,"end":2709.995,"text":"這種法律不動 制度小休的做法本質上就是在拖延改革 規避責任全國保險市場的就業人員數量龐大業務員更是我們長期以來與保險公司處在契約形態"},{"start":2711.236,"end":2739.936,"text":"報酬制度以及勞動保障上的爭議不斷相關修法討論也已經非常多年了監管會卻始終停留在不宜修法的立場顯然與基層的時期需求嚴重的脫節我想我們本次幾位立委修法的核心我們不僅只做條文的文字上修正而是建立一個非常清楚的制度包含明確納入勞動企業工作的條件"},{"start":2740.757,"end":2756.888,"text":"要求金管會與勞動部共同訂定規範終結權責分散互踢皮球的現象我們不只重視勞動權益的相關問題更重視保險銷售品質消費者的保障以及讓我們的保險市場長期的穩定"},{"start":2759.269,"end":2777.379,"text":"我想從我們學界以及實務來觀察保險業員的工作權益保障與契約工作條件身份的認定到底是承攬委任或是雇佣都需要立法來澄清而不是任由行政機關以解釋函令或執法來規避這些問題"},{"start":2779.46,"end":2799.228,"text":"我想保險業務員制度的問題已經討論多年社會共識已逐步形成但主管機關卻持續以技術性的理由來拒絕改革制度長期模糊不清之下受害的不只是業務員還包括每一位保護政府如果繼續迴避全國37萬保險業務員的權益究竟誰來負責"},{"start":2805.39,"end":2830.934,"text":"所以我建議金管會你要正視問題所在如果政府持續以技術性的理由阻擋制度的改革最終犧牲的將是我們第一線業務員的基本權益應將保險業務員的工作條件關係勞動契約教育訓練申訴管道及其他相關的權益事項由主管機關會同勞動部共同來訂定"},{"start":2834.395,"end":2859.129,"text":"金管會如果繼續不作為,受害的永遠是我們基層的勞工本席再次呼籲金管會與勞動部結合我們的專家學者以及實務工作者廣納各界的意見及經驗與立法院共同推動制度完善讓保險的勞動市場回歸公平、透明與更明確的"},{"start":2861.05,"end":2887.167,"text":"這個則屬的一個規範那我想我要在最後再次感謝今天參與的各位工會代表各位學者專家今天提供寶貴的意見作為我們不管是行政部門還有我們立法院我們推動修法一個非常寶貴的依據感謝各位 謝謝好 謝謝林思敏委員接下來我要請第三位我們林志豐東吳大學法律系的教授李教授 謝謝歡迎您"},{"start":2891.876,"end":2916.533,"text":"主席然後在場的各位委員還有金管會的副主委還有金管會的各位長官以及在場的各位保險業界的同仁大家好我是東吳大學李志峰今天非常高興受到財委會的邀請來對有關保險法177條條文修正草案提出我自己的意見我們第一個討論提綱是說"},{"start":2920.476,"end":2937.484,"text":"金管會是否疑針對保險業務員與所屬保險公司間構成勞動契約之情境訂定勞動契約教育訓練獎懲制度及申訴管道之規則那我們可以知道說其實我們保險市場上有將近40萬個金融從業人員"},{"start":2942.166,"end":2970.145,"text":"那保險市場其實是非常活躍是非常活躍的那每一個從業人員對於所謂的職業的型態其實每一個人都有不一樣的想像都有不一樣想像因為二十幾年前我自己也曾經是保險從業人員我曾經在保險業待過我曾經在保險業待過每一個人都有不一樣的想像跟狀態所以是不是適合說"},{"start":2972.266,"end":2997.157,"text":"我們就在我們的保險法裡面規範然後要我們的金融主管機關去訂定說你就是一個什麼樣的狀態我個人以我自己的經驗跟研究我會比較持保留的態度畢竟一般的人跟公司之間的一個關係到底他要怎麼樣的形成"},{"start":2998.257,"end":3018.765,"text":"大概學法律的我們都知道除非是非常特殊的領域需要國家強制的介入原則上我們都希望就是立法者還有一直以來都希望就是說由市場的參與者自己去形成自己去形成因為這樣子比較能夠去顧及"},{"start":3020.085,"end":3044.822,"text":"大家的需求大家的需求而不是齊頭式的說我用法律去強制給你規定規定了之後A不滿意B也不滿意C也不滿意C也不滿意所以我們會比較強調所謂的契約自由契約自由當然有一點要顧及的就是說如果這個雙方裡面是不是有些比較弱勢的弱勢的話我們是不是在"},{"start":3046.003,"end":3060.088,"text":"政府的資源上面去所謂的支援它支援它那一般的我們的市場是這樣的去形成的去形成的所以有關這一次保險法177條的"},{"start":3062.549,"end":3084.463,"text":"修正草案要把勞動契約訂入到147條裡面請金融主管機關去涉入我個人是持比較保留的態度因為畢竟其實這一種一般的人跟公司之間的契約其實在社會的各領域都有"},{"start":3085.643,"end":3113.766,"text":"各領域都有那我們是不是要去思考一件事情就是說我們這個領域是不是已經特殊到說需要我們的目的事業主管機關去介入而不是有廣泛的勞動主管機關去做規範而且讓在市場秩序底下讓所謂的參與的人民跟公司自己去形成"},{"start":3114.526,"end":3138.763,"text":"我覺得這個是大家需要去做一個很慎重的思考因為在我們的法治下真的很少有這樣的規範說要目的事業主管機關去強制的去形成指導人民跟公司之間的契約這個其實是非常非常罕見的"},{"start":3139.804,"end":3158.284,"text":"那如果真的要這樣訂定其實應該要有足夠的法律上的基礎有足夠的理由去支撐說我們確實真的要這樣訂因為它夠特殊因為它夠特殊因為今天如果我們這樣訂了其實其他的行業"},{"start":3160.196,"end":3184.801,"text":"它可能會要求要仿效因為每一個行業一定覺得說它自己是最特殊的但我們必須從社會一般的廣泛面來看去評估說這個行業真的有需要特殊到那個情況所以對於這個修法我個人是持比較保留的態度"},{"start":3186.701,"end":3213.115,"text":"那第二個就是說,陳前如何借公司協力比如說公會跟保養公司共同參與,完善前開規則那我想我剛也已經表達了我覺得這個其實是應該有參與的人參與的人,而不是強制主管機關去做那我想其實我們的保險從業人員他們也很積極地在做這些事情其實我們從後續我們要"},{"start":3215.916,"end":3241.056,"text":"參與發言的我們就可以看得到說其實發展創辦委員會已經成立工會了而且有好幾個工會用集體的力量去怎麼樣去爭取他們的權益那我想我們有相關的所謂的勞動的相關的法制有關社會的運作的方式那這時候我個人認為真的不宜在保險包裡面再做這樣的規範啦"},{"start":3242.637,"end":3260.276,"text":"那第三個有關就是建立多元的教育體系是不是由工會共同來辦理保險業務的教育訓練的可行性那我想因為我來當學者之後我也長期參與這個金融跟保險業界的教育訓練"},{"start":3261.417,"end":3276.855,"text":"那我們目前的教育訓練其實主要是在主管機關的指導之下讓周邊的單位各個學會在主管機關的指導之下去確保說能夠有能力去做出有品質的"},{"start":3277.876,"end":3305.784,"text":"教育訓練的單位去開這種課那我想主管機關在請這些單位去開課的時候其實應該也參酌了保險從業人員的意見那如果今天要由來工會共同舉辦這個教育訓練課程我想前提應該要建立在說我們目前的工會是不是有相同的資源可以做到這麼專業的做法"},{"start":3307.364,"end":3333.562,"text":"如果可以的話那我個人覺得是OK的啊是OK但如果只是為了參與而參與而沒有辦法做到所謂的這個所謂的專業性的教育訓練那我覺得就可能就是本末倒置了可能就是本末倒置了我們知道其實保險保險是一個非常非常專業的一個領域它需要有"},{"start":3334.822,"end":3356.29,"text":"堅實的專業的基礎的教育訓練才能夠達成我們法規要求保險從業人員應該要有所謂的專業性的原則專業性的原則這樣對於我們的整個保險業跟所謂的消費者才是一個怎麼樣共好的境界以上是我的意見謝謝各位"},{"start":3357.278,"end":3367.464,"text":"好 謝謝李之鋒 李教授 謝謝接下來我要請第四位我們中華民國保險業務人員協會的秘書長張維浩張秘書長 歡迎您在國防那邊時間卡到所以他想往後一點我就直接請他們一點"},{"start":3378.5,"end":3390.814,"text":"主席還有各位委員以及各主管機關金管會勞動部法務部代表還有各位專家各位學者各位工會的保險業界的勞工朋友們大家早安大家好"},{"start":3392.506,"end":3419.625,"text":"所以今天呢,針對保險法177條的修正草案首先呢,我這邊也要提出如果是去關注國際趨勢的話其實AI跟數位科技正在改變台灣的金融市場也改變保險業務員接下來的工作型態其實從行銷、分級、風險管理績效追蹤到教育訓練、內部管理還有招攬規範等等以及未來可能AI對於保險、核保跟理賠的認定保險業務員早已面對的不是傳統的"},{"start":3420.666,"end":3445.254,"text":"招攬的這些管理而是未來數位化管理跟平台化監督以及勞動權利能否跟上這些技術的變化問題因此保險法177條不能只停留在行政管理的層面更應該考慮到未來科技導入之後金融跟保險業現場如何去執行如何透過三方機制去保障一些從業人員的工作權還有他們的程序權還有未來的申訴救濟管道"},{"start":3445.894,"end":3470.546,"text":"尤其是全國超過37萬保險業務員是現在保險市場的重要支柱若制度僅由主管機關或業者單方訂定行程缺乏基層業務員還有勞工團體的專業力量參與就難以兼顧實務運作程序正義跟勞動權益因此我認為工會在此修法的制度中是一個非常不可缺少的關鍵角色也是一個社會對話的橋樑現行保險法"},{"start":3474.056,"end":3502.352,"text":"保險業務員管理規則第三條仍將勞務契約、爭議交給民法還有其他法律處理因此本會認為金管會應該針對保險業務員及縮屬公司可能成立勞動契約之情形並並更明確的制度規範特別是在教育訓練、獎懲、停招、撤照以及申訴救濟等重大影響權利的事務上面補強最低的保障原則獨立申訴機制與工會制度化的參與"},{"start":3503.553,"end":3528.758,"text":"同時針對第二點本會也支持公司協力但前提是需要主管機關負責監督保險公司執行當然工會勞工團體實質參與制度以及設計的監督並透過主管機關工會還有業者專家共同參與的協商平台定期討論機制以及重大懲處案件的透明審查程序才能維持公平透明跟可問責性"},{"start":3531.206,"end":3539.4,"text":"接下來就是針對第三題本會這邊也提出認為其實公司協力勞工公會共同辦理保險業務員教育訓練"},{"start":3541.789,"end":3567.095,"text":"有辦法將建立更多元的保險教育體系其實在115年3月2號延商保險業務員教育訓練要點的修正草案的會議中其實也明確的將全國性的保險工會納入可受託代辦保險業務員的教育訓練保險相關機構的團體的規範這表示工會參與辦訓不只是理念的主張而是制度上已經開始慢慢被承認"},{"start":3568.348,"end":3593.143,"text":"當然本會觀點第一個其實就針對現在保發中心線上教育訓練等年度課程裡面線上的部分僅提供法尊跟高齡化保險是認為不足的實體課程裡面也過度偏重於商品的銷售還有罰則的規範但是現在台灣超高齡化社會所關注的社會保險勞工保險社會保障制度課程明顯的不足"},{"start":3593.883,"end":3620.414,"text":"雖然這些內容正是第一線保險業務員在規劃高齡、規劃保險還有企業保險跟整體保障服務中不可缺乏的基礎能力也是工會最能夠補足的專業領域第二個是現行教育訓練也欠缺業務員的勞工權益保障勞工職能發展、勞工職涯規劃等課程對於勞動契約、約定、認定、申訴救濟、停招處分對工作權的影響"},{"start":3621.454,"end":3645.855,"text":"保障勞工權益在發展法律知識人權素養人未被系統性納入使得教育訓練停留在管理導向而未被真正的回應到保險業務員這些權益的發展還有需求第三呢就是工會是依法設立的法人旨在於團結勞工權益提升地位還有改善他們的生活環境其具有獨特的勞動三權團結權協商權還有爭議權"},{"start":3649.378,"end":3665.704,"text":"主體的身份所以工會在保險產業中角色不僅是半訓單位更是具有產業對話的角色社會對話的橋樑從過去民國98年社會對話後全國性保險工會以業務員代表被納入申訴委員會後業務員停止"},{"start":3666.824,"end":3680.233,"text":"招攬處分、申訴制度的改善經驗證明工會、業者、主管機關跟勞動部共同參與的公司協力制度跟教育平台才能讓保險的制度更公平、更透明也更符合第一線業務員的實際需求"},{"start":3682.535,"end":3702.122,"text":"所以現在在AI進入到金融市場的今天我們更需要一步能夠回應現在科技化變化保障勞動權益守護勞動秩序的保險法在177條的修正不應該只是管理工具的擴張本會認為應該是制度的正當性程序性還有公平性與工會參與"},{"start":3703.402,"end":3717.613,"text":"的機制的提升所以唯有公司合力才能夠建置一個公平透明也能夠更面對未來數位變遷的一個保險業務員管理制度以上這邊進行發言謝謝大家"},{"start":3720.851,"end":3731.819,"text":"謝謝我們中華民國保險業人員協會的張秘書長我接下來請我們第五位我們中華民國保險業全國總工會理事長張偉儒張理事長謝謝您 歡迎您我們主席我們財委召集人李燕秀委員"},{"start":3745.775,"end":3759.502,"text":"今天非常感謝我們立法院財政委員安排這一項的共聽會同時我們再次也特別感謝理業休業召集委員能願意了解我們長期來推動保險法第177條修正的訴求"},{"start":3762.023,"end":3782.271,"text":"那本會最核心的期待非常清楚就是希望在制度上正式納入勞動部與工會團體共同的參與我們才能夠真正落實保障全國37萬名保險業務員的基本的勞動權益這個訴求我們中華民國保險業全國總工會不是今年才提出來的20多年來"},{"start":3783.211,"end":3799.489,"text":"本人會不斷在體制內努力的爭取也一直希望透過合法、理性、制度上的方式來推動改革然而過去21年來這項改革始終沒有獲得我們主管機關真正的支持多次的努力最後都功虧一簣"},{"start":3800.43,"end":3815.195,"text":"無疾而終所以本委會不禁要問究竟還要等多久政府才願意正是我們保險醫務的聲音難道一定要入室的勞工走上街頭拉白布條到總統府陳情我們政府才聽得見嗎而且我們也看到"},{"start":3815.675,"end":3839.365,"text":"立法院在今年一月初,三讀通過《外送員權利保障及外送平台管理法》,反映了數萬名外送人員的心聲,保障其勞動的權利,並明定獨立申訴處理的小組。但反觀文保險醫護院作為全國高達37萬人的龐大勞動群體,在現行的制度下,卻長期面臨我們權利失衡的處境。"},{"start":3840.245,"end":3861.033,"text":"尤其在所謂保險幼兒園管理規則第19條第一項懲處登錄之參考中我們看不到真正保障我們勞工群的設計反而看到是越來越多懲處的條文不斷地加重而且停止招人撤銷登錄等處分這樣的制度早已不是單純的管理而是事實上在剝奪我們保險幼兒園的工作權利生存權"},{"start":3862.691,"end":3888.764,"text":"更嚴重的是保險業務員唯一的申訴機制中華民國人壽保險商業同益工會人生保險業務員申訴委員會竟然是隸屬於保險商業同益工會的內部組織這樣的申訴制度如何能夠讓我們基層業務員相信它是公正、獨立、有效的尤其申訴機制無法真正保障我們當事人的權利那麼制度就形同虛設保險業務員也只能淪為制度下的弱勢者任人宰割"},{"start":3890.084,"end":3911.048,"text":"對人民的工作權造成重大影響的懲處規範本應由主管機關依法訂定並執行但今天許多涉及保險義務員重大權利的懲處內容卻交由民間商業團體來制定與執行甚至可以不斷地擴充條文這等於把政府對人民權利限制的處罰的權利實質交給民間團體其結果在"},{"start":3915.56,"end":3931.788,"text":"本會擔任人身保育業務員申訴委員就見證到很多時期的案例業務員因為制度上的處分而失去工作失去的政道失去的收入直接充其家庭生計對多數人來講他們不是只是自己失業而是整個家庭的生活都受到影響"},{"start":3932.648,"end":3949.069,"text":"那事實上保險業務員用盡自如之下保險公司每年的業績有超過九成都是我們第一線保險業務員努力打拚而過來但對產業如此的貢獻但是保險業務最基本的勞動潛力都始終沒有獲得相對自如的保障這是非常非常不公平"},{"start":3949.83,"end":3970.457,"text":"同時我們也必須指出在台灣其他受僱勞工若勞動潛力受損至少也有勞動法令可以依行也能夠向勞動部申訴尋求協助但保險預言二十幾年來卻長期處在申訴無門保障不足的狀態這樣的置入落差不僅不合理也不符合我們現代國家對勞動人權保障的基本要求"},{"start":3971.297,"end":3985.082,"text":"同時我們在國際勞工組織ILO作為台灣立法依據與重要指標之一以明定消除對婦女一切形式歧見的CEDAW公約以及我們暴力及騷擾公約的CEDAW公約那同時國際勞工"},{"start":3987.326,"end":4015.788,"text":"組織已經提出對勞工公正轉型與尊嚴勞工的倡議那我們政府也積極同時把列到我們當前的勞動政策的推動反觀我們保險業務員有37萬人也有簽過信的保險總工會組織卻始終難以在制度上取得我們應有的地位所以長期以來資方團體的聲音往往大過我們勞工團體造成制度上的失衡這也是我們今天必須修法的根本原因"},{"start":4017.099,"end":4039.571,"text":"所以我們今天能夠代表我們中華民國8月全國總會提出以下建議第一點我們希望修正保險法第177條明定主管機關以訂定涉及保險義務源權利之相關規範時應該建立利害關係人參與及執行的機制並會同執行全國性的保險公會團體的意見以確保制度符合實務運作與勞動權益的保障那第二點"},{"start":4043.913,"end":4072.833,"text":"我們訴求公會應該有辦理保險醫務員教育訓練的權利修正保險醫務員管理規則第二條第十二條醫務員應參加所屬公司辦理之教育訓練外經政府立案之公會全國性的保險公會經得定定教育訓練要點變保險核備以強化專業發展及多元化培訓的體系而且在未來保險產業正面臨數位化平台化與AI創新的發展若數位保險創新保險商業模式持續的推進"},{"start":4073.813,"end":4094.668,"text":"制度設計中切法工會與勞工團體參與那麼所有創新的都有可能建立在犧牲第一線保險幼兒園生存權與工作權的基礎上屆時受衝擊的不是山西萬民保險幼兒園本身而是背後無數個家庭生計的經濟安全因此本會也特別要提出第三點"},{"start":4095.96,"end":4116.494,"text":"訴求依據國際勞工組織IAL有關於平台經濟與數位轉型之體面勞動原則以及人工智慧基本法頒布之後正為推動AI政策時應該兼顧勞動權的保障應該積極運用人工智慧確保勞動者應有的勞動權利避免造成就業市場以"},{"start":4117.535,"end":4143.723,"text":"市場與就業的結構性衝擊因此更需要在保險法規中明定納入勞動保障所以我們建立金管會在金融業應用人工智慧AI進行中陣列保險優言保障與轉型計畫要求數位保險公司在申請設立及營運時提出勞動影響評估合理之用金報酬與績效制度以及勞資協商及轉型的機制所以最後"},{"start":4144.892,"end":4173.937,"text":"我們再一次的懇切呼籲這次的保險法第170條修法應該明確呼籲勞動部與工會團體在制度中的法定地位盡力真正能夠兼顧管理產業發展與勞工保障的機制唯有如此才能夠讓保險業務員不再是制度下被忽視的弱勢團體才能夠真正落實勞工群的保障這也才能讓我們保險業保險的產業走向更公正更穩健也更具有未來性的發展方向"},{"start":4174.677,"end":4196.606,"text":"最後我們在這裡也特別感謝李燕秀召集委員以及我們所有在座與會的政府機關代表、學者專家能夠聆聽我們的意見我們在這裡也誠實的期望未來保險產業中的勞工團體與資本團體均能夠在平等基礎上對話共同為我們產業開創更美好的未來我們再次感謝大家 謝謝"},{"start":4198.751,"end":4207.096,"text":"謝謝感謝張理事長接下來我請第六位我們人壽保險商業同業工會的副秘書副秘書長金義惠歡迎您"},{"start":4212.436,"end":4232.773,"text":"主席那各位委員各位現場的長官還有這個保險業的先進那我想很榮幸代表這個工會來今天這個公聽會表達算另外姑且叫資方的看法那我想這個保險業在適用這個勞動相關法令的規定我想應該是從民國87年經過"},{"start":4235.715,"end":4261.607,"text":"政府指定保險業納入勞基法的適用那當然在以保險業來講區分為內勤人員跟外勤人員內勤人員基本上沒有太大的問題那外勤人員的話事實上來講一直以來在各公司我想不管是保險公司或者是保金保貸公司他們的業務制度來講的話其實都會依照市場的狀況或者是說公司的業務特性去設計"},{"start":4263.509,"end":4276.625,"text":"這個他跟所屬的這個業務員之間的一些相關的勞務給付的一個形態那在我們目前實務上來講其實是包括承攬、雇傭、委任甚至是所謂的混合契約"},{"start":4277.628,"end":4291.9,"text":"那當然在這一個納入勞基法適用以來,一直以來的話就是可能就是有各方不同的意見認為有的人可能是認為說,就像剛剛前面這個張理事長提到的這個勞動契約來講的話,這個勞工權益"},{"start":4296.244,"end":4311.44,"text":"那必須要去適用勞基法那才會有這個等於是說比較好的保障但是我們也聽到另外的聲音就是說在目前我們在這個公司跟業務院之間也有相當一部分是所謂的承攬契約"},{"start":4312.581,"end":4328.995,"text":"那承攬契約它的一個特性基本上當然它沒有底薪但是它相對的來講它也比較不受保險公司的一些相關的約束跟管理它有管理但是它的管理主要我想等一下我們也會提到"},{"start":4329.455,"end":4346.836,"text":"是基於保險業務員管理規則所做的招攬行為的管理其實剛剛大家也都有提到一個觀念保險業事實上來講是我們整體金融服務業的一環它是受到社會的高度期待那主管機關也是採取所謂的高度監理的立場"},{"start":4347.697,"end":4368.346,"text":"所以在這樣子的情況下對於這個保險業務員他在招攬行為上的一些要求目前主管機關是透過保險法147條授權訂定的保險業務員管理規則那責成保險公司對業務員的招攬行為進行管理那當然剛剛也有提到依照保險業務員管理規則第19條有所謂的懲處參考標準"},{"start":4371.867,"end":4393.647,"text":"其實各位去看這個懲處參考標準的一些相關內容絕大多數都是一些等於是說在業務員可能有一些不當的招攬行為或者導致客戶的權益受損的情況下那當然就要對這個業務員做一個適當的處分那其實主管機關在這一些年來針對這個懲處登錄參考標準也責成工會這邊"},{"start":4397.53,"end":4414.07,"text":"不斷地去檢討經濟包括說合理它的構成要件包括說在懲處的標準能夠把它等於是說在責任跟所謂的違反的這個程度來講能夠取得一個均衡那讓業務人的權利能夠獲得保障"},{"start":4416.813,"end":4436.813,"text":"那我們今天看到今天這個議題等於是說當然立法委員有連署提案要修正保險法177條要把包括勞動條件在內的相關內容責成經管會會商勞動部訂定那這個部分的話可能就跟我剛剛講的我們目前保險公司跟業務員之間"},{"start":4438.675,"end":4454.493,"text":"那其實在勞務給付形態上有承攬、委任、雇傭甚至混合契約等等來講可能就有相當程度的差異因為你把勞動部的角色拉進來那相對的來講勞動部是目前勞動基準法的主管機關在"},{"start":4456.034,"end":4482.872,"text":"這一條如果是這樣子的修正是不是隱含著一個意思日後保險公司跟業務員之間全部是所謂的勞動契約那全部是勞動契約來講就是要適用勞基法包含說這一個業務員的工作時間工作地點還有一些相關的一些規範都要依照勞基法的相關規定來執行但是在現在的實務上來講是不是所有的業務員都認為說這樣子對他是"},{"start":4486.294,"end":4509.35,"text":"最好的一個方案那我想一直以來在這個方面等於是說業務員的勞務給付型態一直在各方意見不一的情況下其實包括大法官會議剛剛提到的4-740號解釋包含說勞動部也在109年有訂定了一個等於說勞務給付型態的一個判定的標準"},{"start":4509.99,"end":4524.665,"text":"那在這一些來講的話其實都是在對於這個保險業務員跟所屬公司之間的關係去做一定程度的定性但是並沒有因此而強制保險公司跟業務員之間必須訂定單一的所謂的勞動契約"},{"start":4528.729,"end":4557.546,"text":"所以在這樣子的情況下在我們以工會的立場來講基本上我們還是認為這個部分在現行的規定其實並不是讓這個所謂的業務員完全沒有任何等於是說勞動保障的空間那只是說在某一些是監理法規的要求某一些是這個保險公司等於說這個人業務員如果要到保險公司服務有一些基本的"},{"start":4558.647,"end":4560.99,"text":"一些規範可能要要求譬如說"},{"start":4561.673,"end":4591.008,"text":"在這個職場可能不能夠去做一些違反法令或者是說一些等於是說違反工作規則的一些事情那這樣子的一個情況來講其實它是一個基本的要求特別是我剛剛也有提到說保險業務員其實保險公司其實主要的一個對他們的約束主要還是在招攬行為的上面這個招攬行為的要求它可以達到等於是說保障"},{"start":4591.968,"end":4612.055,"text":"客戶權益的效果而明確這些不當招攬行為的界限事實上也可以某種程度的去保護業務員在招攬行為的一些權益不會因為事後還要去證明說當初有沒有所謂的不當招攬的行為反而導致業務員的權益沒有辦法獲得保障"},{"start":4613.175,"end":4625.361,"text":"所以以工會我們的看法還是認為在現行的規範下來講應該可以維持現行由這個現行的保險法177條授權訂定的保險業務員管理規則事實上來講他已經針對業務員的資格取得教育訓練懲處相關的規定都有相關的規範"},{"start":4635.166,"end":4658.555,"text":"那另外的話在今天的議題第二個部分有提到公私協力的部分我想在這一個這些年來針對這個包含保險業務院管理規則的修正或者是一些保險業務院管理的相關議題那事實上在主管機關討論的時候那其實像保險業務院管理規則如果要修正的話因為它是保險法的授權執法"},{"start":4659.635,"end":4673.346,"text":"那所以基本上都會經過預告由各方來表達意見讓主管機關作為訂定的一個參考那另外來講跟保險業務員管理有關的議題至少我個人的經驗主管機關在這個"},{"start":4675.367,"end":4694.137,"text":"召開相關的會議的時候都會邀請包括業務員代表或者保險公司代表甚至學者專家大家共聚一堂來針對這個相關的議題來進行討論由主管機關基於監理的一個需求在中間求取各方最大的共識"},{"start":4695.197,"end":4724.142,"text":"所以在這個部分在公司協力的情況下目前應該這樣子的機制可以維持那最後一個部分是有關現行的教育訓練的部分我想剛剛前面幾位代表基本上發言都是持肯定的態度那我在這邊也代表我們工會跟各位報告那其實我們工會目前受主管機關的指示有訂定了一個人身保險業的這個在職教育訓練的作業要點"},{"start":4724.882,"end":4741.986,"text":"那大概在上個月主管機關已經這個同意被查事實上來講在這個修正的內容事實上是允許保險公司可以跟包括職業公會在內的這個單位來合作辦理相關的在職教育訓練那當然這個合作的辦理來講這個就會回歸到公司跟這個所謂辦理單位之間怎麼樣去協商"},{"start":4753.208,"end":4773.58,"text":"這個辦理單位怎麼樣去符合這個委辦單位的需求所以在現行來講應該在法治面不是太大的問題那以上大概是就這個部分表達工會的看法 謝謝好 謝謝我們金副秘書長的發言接下來我請第七位趙學斌我們誠意法律事務所的律師趙律師 歡迎您"},{"start":4789.085,"end":4812.646,"text":"非常榮幸今天有機會到大院非常感謝就是大院財政委員會從去年一直以來到強制執行我們到匯率波動到今天的業務員等等其實我們可以完全可以感受到財政委員會的委員是非常用心不斷的在去推動這個保險法的前進那本人也是倍感榮幸有機會參與這些相關的一個演繹"},{"start":4813.487,"end":4836.452,"text":"今天主要的這個提綱大概就是有三點首先第一就是針對說這個金管會他是不是應該去是否以針對這個前面所講的業務員跟公司去進一步去制定這種契約的情境教育訓練等等獎懲那以及公司協力又該怎麼做第三則是討論說關於這個多元的教育訓練"},{"start":4837.512,"end":4852.954,"text":"公會跟這個是不是有一些可能辦理的這個可行性大概是主要的三個提綱那我們就逐一進入第一首先針對是這個提綱一其實我們主要的核心可以去關注的是這部保險法他到底在做什麼他的功用是什麼"},{"start":4853.294,"end":4873.574,"text":"他適不適合來做這件事情保險法三個字其實他一分可以為二前者我們看這每部的這個法條的文字我們可以很清楚的感受到從第一條一路到一三五全部都是在講人以人為本他在討論的是保險契約跟邀保人之間的這個保險契約的一個權利物關係"},{"start":4874.175,"end":4895.276,"text":"可是來到136條以後呢這個保險公司搖身一變變成保險業同樣一個保險公司為什麼在一部法典竟然有截然不同的一個稱謂正是因為他這部法律在處理兩件事情前者在處理的是保險契約的權利物關係後者處理的是行政機關對於保險業的這個行政的一個行為"},{"start":4898.459,"end":4916.588,"text":"其實我們可以進一步發現前者他其實就是很純粹的契約法私人之間的權利物關係後者是這種公法性質的一個監理法那我們今天可以發現說這部保險契約他至多其實處理到的是這個保險契約至於這個保險人他額外"},{"start":4917.188,"end":4933.681,"text":"民法這個契約百百種我們在這個在篇各論可能有27種的一個契約保險人他當然可以另外去訂立跟業務員訂立這個承染契約他也可能訂立雇用契約各式各樣的這種契約可是這些契約呢他其實不應該去進入我們這個這部保險法"},{"start":4936.843,"end":4955.856,"text":"因為這部保險法它的核心其實就是真正在處理的是右側這一塊是關於行政機關它怎麼去對金融業者做這些相關的一個監理對於保險業來去做的這個行政的一個作為所以這是截然不同的一個法律關係那當然也不太適合讓這樣子的一個"},{"start":4957.677,"end":4982.167,"text":"可能僱傭關係承讓關係彼此之間的這個契約進入到這部法典而我們也進一步去檢視到底金管會的目的他到底是做什麼國家有這麼多的一個部會每個來到這裡的人都有他的故事每部法律的制定都有他的目的今天金融機關他其實重點有三第一維持這個金融穩定促進金融市場的發展健全業務的經營那這跟契約之間的關係"},{"start":4986.068,"end":4992.556,"text":"並不是這部這個行政機關他真正該做的這個核心的一個業務如果我們把其他"},{"start":4993.905,"end":5015.02,"text":"各種的事物都放進來的話那其實會很可怕的原因是因為這個部會的同仁這個會的同仁搞不好他做的工作會比我們想像更多疫情他開始要處理這個衛生的管理疫情的一個管理如果人員有從業人員有這個群聚他開始要去關注這個什麼衛生的一個治理那如果"},{"start":5016.161,"end":5044.349,"text":"公司跟員工之間有相關的這個契約的爭議又要再進一步去處理是不是有勞動權益這真的已經完全依託了這部金融監督管理人會他本職的一個職責那某種程度會不會也讓原先這個部這個會的同仁他可能承擔過重的一個工作那可能反而不是我們所樂見的我們今天來這邊齊聚一堂我們就是希望讓所有人的勞動權益都可以保障那我們當然也不適合讓"},{"start":5045.129,"end":5062.93,"text":"特定單一部會承擔他不應該所負擔的一個責任那同時我們在討論說金管會是不是要制定這些規則那現有的勞動部有沒有制定有啊勞動部早在108年就制定了這個勞動契約的一個指導原則針對人格上從屬性經濟上從屬性組織上從屬性"},{"start":5066.013,"end":5087.84,"text":"列了十幾點的一個標準同時提供了一個檢核表那作為一個司法實務工作者我必然要去檢視那法院怎麼去認定呢司法實務上法院就認為說這樣子的一個勞動契約的一個認定的指導原則它就是行政程序法的一個解釋性的一個行政規則當然可以把它予以援用來去進一步去檢視個案的這個"},{"start":5090.558,"end":5104.243,"text":"爭議是不是有這種情形那法院有沒有用在業務員跟保險公司之間的契約關係呢確實這些判決我們可以看到這判決也是有原因來去原用這個勞動部的一個指導原則進一步來去"},{"start":5105.203,"end":5122.695,"text":"處理所以回到我們今天的主軸就可以發現說如果我們認為保險業務員很特別那我們就要進一步去檢視他特別的地方在哪裡他特別的地方在於他招攬的是一個長期機遇性的一個契約商品保險契約是一個很長期的嗎可是這只有保險有嗎不是"},{"start":5123.636,"end":5142.793,"text":"生前的殯葬業者這個服務契約零孤塔塔位保全業者的這個連線他每年需要更新還有這種軟體服務等等我們可以發現說各行各業都需要業務都會有業務員的存在而都有這種長期際遇性商品的業務員所以如果我們真的認為說現有的勞動部的這個認定指導原則能"},{"start":5146.957,"end":5170.052,"text":"不足以去因應這個業務工作的特性那或許其實我們應該可以去進一步通盤的考量而不是由各個事業目的主管機關多頭馬車各自去訂一個一人一把號各吹各的調那可能反而不利於我們真正想要去追求的這種勞動權益的一個保障所以這是我認為可能保險法不太適合做這件事情"},{"start":5170.532,"end":5196.108,"text":"那針對提綱三的部分提綱二的部分就是因為可能我比較不認同在保險法去處理所以至於公司協力的部分可能就會回歸再進一步去回歸是不是說工會要怎麼去和勞動部來去完善這個現有的指導原則如果如果我是說如果如果大家認為剛剛講的這個勞動部的指導原則可能不夠完善的話那也許是往這個方向"},{"start":5196.508,"end":5206.447,"text":"那至於提綱三則是我們進一步去討論說關於這個教育訓練的問題公會基於公會法公會的任務非常多那其實核心就是"},{"start":5207.699,"end":5226.529,"text":"促進這個勞工的團結提升勞工的地位改善勞工的生活這也是在座我們所有人都想一起達成的一個目標毫無疑問那在教育訓練這塊呢我們就要進一步去區分到底是哪一種教育訓練如果只是單純純粹性的教育訓練其實多多益善"},{"start":5227.329,"end":5236.859,"text":"讓盡量去提升自己的各種的教育這當然沒有什麼好爭執的只是如果我們現在所討論的提綱三所討論的是專職保險業務員管理規則所稱的這些教育訓練這個時候涉及的是一個執照專門職業人員他的一個資格"},{"start":5248.07,"end":5272.886,"text":"我們必須應該要盡可能去確保提供教育訓練的一個機構團體它是具有保險的一個專業那可能可以再進一步去針對這個教育訓練的要點去討論說我們要怎麼去進一步去確保這件事情因為我們總不希望說辦理這個教育訓練可能不具有這個專業那會比較可惜那以上是我的發言謝謝大家 謝謝"},{"start":5274.517,"end":5282.464,"text":"好 感谢赵律师的发言接下来我请我们立法院非常资深的长期关注这个法案的赖世保委员"},{"start":5293.204,"end":5313.841,"text":"謝謝主席 以及各位長官 各位信進今天針對這三個題目 我倒過來講有關於我們希望保險教育體系 公會共同辦理保險業務員的教育訓練當然可行 為什麼不可行呢我覺得陳副主委也都很清楚 我們學界出來的"},{"start":5314.541,"end":5321.245,"text":"有多一點來懲辦這個主要反對的說法就是就是很怕這塊給別人搶走了大家來找這些講師大概講師就固定一些講師嘛那大家來搶那我覺得越開放越好啦"},{"start":5335.113,"end":5358.443,"text":"所以對第三題來講的話我覺得我覺得今天針對是保險業務員他的一些的權益我覺得應該是盡可能的保障業務能夠做的盡可能方塊這是第三題第二題就是有關於第二題跟第一題第二題是連起來的那就先提到第一題就是金管會是和"},{"start":5359.483,"end":5375.221,"text":"以針對保險業務院跟所屬保險公司構成的勞動企業的情境訂定勞動企業教育訓練獎證制度跟申訴管道這就今天修法的重點了我當然等一下聽經濟部主管大會的意見"},{"start":5378.985,"end":5398.974,"text":"我覺得這樣子 主管單位 金管會其實很大的金管的權力大到你沒辦法想像我就記得很清楚 我不要前面加形容詞 一個科長他就要一個金控的大老闆 他們的總資產大概是上兆的"},{"start":5399.734,"end":5424.715,"text":"說因為聽說 這是以前的故事聽說這個裡面有市長串聯他身體有狀況 沒有辦法逝世 叫他來接我經國會的科長就下降了命令我當然不是說這個大老闆有多了不起不是這個意思 而是說有必要這樣子嗎就當事人相關部門來找我做陳情"},{"start":5425.865,"end":5453.794,"text":"他說這個很簡單啊你就叫他你們在什麼地方電視上露個臉就知道了走路情況好不好有沒有中風就清清楚楚啊這個後來他的事情就解決了因為當事人他需要他的健康讓這個金管會的主管知道所以金管會因為有關於金控相關底下的包括保險這都是屬於特許行業金管會非常重要"},{"start":5454.894,"end":5477.385,"text":"這個是特許的行業要你們高度的管理高度的監管那我個人的傾向是說大家要這個辦教育訓練大家要講成老同企業越公開越好越透明越好那今天來講的話修了177條老實講我個人都熱心啟程"},{"start":5480.786,"end":5494.435,"text":"不要再去框框 因為你們想的是什麼金管會的角度 你看好了你們的答案一定是金管會的答案一定是希望維持現狀 對吧副主委 點點頭 你看沒有錯啊 今天去擺大了啊我們主席還繞得這麼這樣子主席人漂亮多nice啊結果還被你們打槍你看 他的就是不要啦所以你說的不好啦 這樣啦就是今天這麼結構的"},{"start":5509.705,"end":5534.719,"text":"所以今天大家知道 大家專家學者 業界的代表 都知道今天是陪公子讀書啦 陪金管會 金管是答案很清楚NO那我覺得NO要講個道理啊 講個道理啊保險優源不少人喔 對不對 這些人多少人啊金管處委要不要跟我們講一下多少人保險優源多少人多少人 大概多少人"},{"start":5540.215,"end":5568.294,"text":"37萬對不對這幾十萬不可謂不多啦對不對這個這麼多人的一個情況之下我覺得我覺得他們的權力的照顧是有必要的啦你不能說一切都在Umbrella都在那個軍控法裡面那都是因為我對於軍控已經有一定的規範所以都在軍控公司底下你去運作這個沒有道理啦"},{"start":5569.034,"end":5587.297,"text":"這個沒有道理 現在人們最大 我覺得要保險業務員保險業務員他們的權益 各方面要收到一定的保障一定的保障最好的方式 就是立法保障所以今天這個法 我個人傾向應該要支持的"},{"start":5588.637,"end":5612.767,"text":"所以說治理行間怎麼修改 我們再來修改我想其他的專家有不同的意見 但是我都尊重特別是進國會議 我們真的拜託副主委你這麼年輕就當副主委這麼大的官拜託你一定要改變你的mind set因為中華民國的官員噴到事情一定找法挑手弄"},{"start":5614.212,"end":5639.44,"text":"我們能不能啊 這個偉大的副主委要找法條說YES這個東西啊 才是造福整個社會啦也造福台灣幾十萬的報紙業務員他們好好待不服我現在來講 聽起來看起來好像他有自己獨立的快事上都沒有都被掐得死死的啦 這個動彈不得 我覺得不好簡單 以上就是今天請各位指教 謝謝"},{"start":5642.347,"end":5666.358,"text":"謝謝賴世寶委員其實這個法案其實每一個會期都有許多委員關注我覺得應該可以從包括最有共識的幾個比較沒有爭議點我們可以應該是往前進一步包括譬如說教育訓練我覺得今晚會真的可以認真去研議包括怎麼樣去辦理一個好的一個教育訓練的審議的機制其實我們可以定出來"},{"start":5667.438,"end":5686.016,"text":"那我覺得這個有一些是可以調整的不是說完全都不能調整大家比較沒有爭議有共識的我們可以往前跨進一步好那接下來下一位感謝賴世保委員的發言接下來我請我們國立政治大學法律系的副教授林佳和林副教授謝謝"},{"start":5702.096,"end":5712.44,"text":"主席 各位夥伴 各位早安我就直接針對我們今天的三個提出來的討論提綱跟各位分享一下我的看法"},{"start":5713.965,"end":5740.872,"text":"我想這邊討論提綱一保險業務人員管理規則要不要對於構成勞動契約的情境訂定相關規則我必須承認這個問題問得不太清楚我先假設一下他的問的意思是什麼就是說類似保險法這種性質的法律如果意圖要直接明訂特定從業人員的契約屬性"},{"start":5742.472,"end":5764.239,"text":"甚至是排他性的或推定保險業務人為勞工我必須說這極為罕見而且甚至可能有違憲的問題因為其實人民有選擇法律關係的自由法律上就算採取某一種推定甚至從事哪一種工作只能是哪一種法律關係比較難想像"},{"start":5765.459,"end":5787.533,"text":"那國內最有名的失敗例子就是交通部針對觀光導遊跟領隊交通部一直希望導遊跟領隊在台灣早期開放出國旅遊的時候希望既定是勞工那這個完全失敗但我在猜想這個提綱應該不是這個意思這個提綱應該指的是說如果保險業務員選擇勞動"},{"start":5791.395,"end":5816.557,"text":"勞動關係那就有一定的規範必須遵循那這個呢就當然不會在禁止之列國內外最典型的例子就是數位經濟平台的從業人員例如平台外送員平台外送員我們都知道即便在歐洲的法院實務中大部分都判決是承攬不是勞工只有比較少數是勞工但法律例如最有名的"},{"start":5817.478,"end":5836.806,"text":"西班牙歧視法就直接規定如果你選擇勞動關係那接下來就如何如何那國內在貴院過去曾經出現過的世衛經濟平台外送員相關的法律草案也都這樣說就如果你選擇勞工你就如何如何如果你選擇非勞工你就至少要怎樣怎樣"},{"start":5837.666,"end":5851.424,"text":"那這個其實沒有問題如果提供是這個意思的話但比較麻煩的是站在勞動法的角度有一個困惑困惑就是那如果是契約連立例如國內現在保險業最流行的例如承攬加"},{"start":5853.987,"end":5871.547,"text":"這個勞動或委任加勞動或甚至混合契約混合契約不是一個好的用語比較正義的用語是混合適用法甚至某一種融合契約那請問我們設定為勞動契約必須遵守的最低規範要如何用在這一些類型上"},{"start":5872.348,"end":5887.157,"text":"我想這是在法律適用上那個英國首相說What matters is what works奏效有用的東西才是重要的東西如果我們遞出來實務上很難用那產生了更多的困惑那恐怕會"},{"start":5888.078,"end":5915.188,"text":"我就會覺得比較保留當然今天勞工的認定我們剛剛我們之前的發言我們律師談得非常的這個正確大法官試著740號其實留下了非常多的混亂因為我必須承認從勞動法角度大法官740號對於勞工的定義實在很糟糕例如大法官說如果工作時間是保險公司定"},{"start":5916.528,"end":5938.168,"text":"是工作時間地點是公司規定那你那你就是勞工換言之如果你工作時間地點自由你就不是勞工這是個最典型的錯誤我們會說前者正確後者不正確如果工作時間地點由保險公司規定通常是勞工但如果這位勞動者工作時間自由地點也自由"},{"start":5938.749,"end":5967.651,"text":"不代表他就不是勞工大法官犯了一個非常嚴重的錯誤而且大法官把我們說的報酬計算方式以保費為基礎計算佣金誤把報酬計算方式混淆為業務風險承擔規則所以我們勞動法ABC連大三的學生都不會犯這個錯誤那還好大法官740號之後國內法院多半忘掉740號會拿出740號的多半是保險公司的律師"},{"start":5969.052,"end":5995.968,"text":"所以法院並不會受欺世人的拘束這個問題就比較小我個人在這個問題上過去幾年的經驗我認為可能主管機關要思考如何減少我們在保險業關於業務員是不是勞工的紛爭我們可能要找到一個比較有效的機制至少是一個暫時性解決相關爭議的機制因為終極確定只能留給司法"},{"start":5996.869,"end":6009.84,"text":"我沒有辦法透過任何的制度設計都沒有辦法說主管機關說你是勞工司法就不能推翻恐怕沒有辦法這樣除非我們採取像美國有一些比較明顯的制度如果透過機關的處分"},{"start":6012.222,"end":6036.047,"text":"那你要推翻它只能向上訴法院推翻至少有第一審法院判決的效力除非我們界定是這樣或歐洲曾經荷蘭跟法國做過法國在1980年代廢掉了荷蘭一直維持到今天就是關於勞動關係的某一些決定由主管機關決定主管機關一決定那就推定為"},{"start":6039.045,"end":6059.979,"text":"合法或違法不管他討論的是什麼我覺得目前很多的爭議可能出現在我們實務上對於認定勞工與否的混亂造成我們的業者也困擾造成我們的從業人員也深陷其中這種恐怕是我認為主管機關可能真的要面對的那針對討論提綱二"},{"start":6062.18,"end":6090.859,"text":"關於如何藉由公司協力完善前開規則可能必須問指的是儘管會在制定保險業務員管理規則應該多聽聽工會跟保險公司的意見參與那這個毫無問題在目前強調多元治理行動者參與那麼讓工會跟業者來一起參加甚至做某一種決定那至少有過程的參加那完全具有正當性我個人認為這個"},{"start":6091.92,"end":6111.462,"text":"完全不是問題但可能進一步延伸如果我們要勞資自治之法下的自願遵守的軟法如果保險優先管理規則只要涉及到某一種例如勞資關係勞動區這顯然是這個提綱背後的暗示那可不可能採取某一種"},{"start":6113.063,"end":6135.689,"text":"強制性基礎規範進一步讓你們勞資雙方來形成金管會就來頒布這個在國內外公司協力去制定傳統上由公權力單方決定現在由大家一起討論公權力以後有遵守法院也會做合法推定那這個其實也很常見我認為這是個政策選擇問題到底我們金管會是要繼續"},{"start":6137.249,"end":6149.96,"text":"對於業務院管理規則採取法律強制規範由機關單方訂定只是程序上召開公聽會而已還是要勞資自治法下自願遵守"},{"start":6151.055,"end":6179.294,"text":"由我金管會給你一個公權率的基礎 我覺得這是選擇問題最後端倫提綱三的這個教育訓練我想恐怕要問這個教育訓練指的是任意性促進性的在職訓練那我想這個沒有問題如果每年例如金管會規定保險業務員要受一定義務實術的教育訓練但由公會不管是哪一個公公的公公司的公來舉辦那麼金管會做某一種認證認可"},{"start":6181.295,"end":6198.015,"text":"沒有問題麻煩的是下一個麻煩的是如果我們的教育訓練指的是強制性義務性規範而且攸關你的職業資格的得上變更我過去最多的經驗是在過去的教育部體育屬相的運動部的學校專任運動教練"},{"start":6199.477,"end":6227.989,"text":"它會涉及到教育訓練你如果沒有滿足我就剝奪你教練資格你在學校就不能夠任職別忘了它適用教育人員內容條例這個部分國內其實也很有經驗同樣道理我覺得還是要看金管會的政策就算是 我的意思是就算是強制性 義務性攸關保險業務人職業資格的取得或喪失的由例如工會不管哪一個工"},{"start":6228.909,"end":6243.221,"text":"一起來舉辦或單獨有哪一個也不管哪一個公來舉辦其實在我們實務上都有類似的例子還是要看金管會的政策有沒有意願要管制下的開放到什麼程度以上分享 謝謝"},{"start":6245.719,"end":6259.325,"text":"謝謝林教授的指導跟發言好 我最後一位我邀請我們中華民國產業保險商業同業工會的林勝志 林副主委你有要發言嗎謝謝您"},{"start":6275.049,"end":6298.971,"text":"主席副主委還有經管會長官還有各位教授還有各位可以開一下麥克風按一下前面麥克風謝謝還有各位保險同業先進大家早安那產檢同業公會這邊也是一樣成如剛剛的教授們的一個的一個發言的內容因為"},{"start":6300.456,"end":6321.448,"text":"還是基於契約司法的一個自治的一個原則契約自由的原則因為還是尊重業務員他本身可以去選擇契約的一個形式跟他的一個選擇的自由因為最主要像產險比較不會有爭議因為產險的部分通常業務員他是比較"},{"start":6323.147,"end":6337.432,"text":"傾向於說他可以選擇是屬於兼職的一個形式因為他本身可能同時有具備受選的業務員的身份那參選業務員的部分他可能會比較傾向於說他不要"},{"start":6338.492,"end":6360.826,"text":"說到公司的一個選任監督他比較希望是自由的一個方式可能是像承攬的方式或是拒捐的方式然後增加他的一個收入所以這部分我們是建議說不要用法律的一個強制規定來限制他選擇企業自由的一個權利那第二點的部分有關於那個業務員"},{"start":6362.467,"end":6389.349,"text":"現行保險業務員的管理規則是否使保險業務員的一個獎程跟救濟程序處於不利的一個地位這部分我們的回覆的意見是因為會員公司就他的一個業務員的定期與教育訓練並就相關的一個業務招攬的行為宣導公司獎程等措施然後以使業務人員了解公司的制度章程還有相關的一個曾經管道這部分"},{"start":6390.598,"end":6413.318,"text":"另外依照保險業務員管理規則第18條的規定業務員所屬公司對於業務員的招攬行為應該訂講審辦法那講審辦法是訂定跟修正程序所屬公司應納入業務員代表來參與表達意見並持公正公開來維護保護權益的一個方式辦理並於層屬業務員前都會給相關的一個陳述意見或是"},{"start":6416.58,"end":6421.285,"text":"相關的一個事後救濟的機制所以產業公會這邊其實已經有依照業務員管理規則第19條之1條第19條之1條的規定然後在業務員管理委員會下有設置了財產保險業務員的一個勝訴的一個委員會然後另外"},{"start":6435.629,"end":6460.54,"text":"在委員會的任務是對於各財產保險業務員向原處分公司申付受停職招攬登錄、撤銷登錄處分這複查結果有異議的一個附和的一個申請那業務員有受到懲處之後也可以先向該公司申付或有不符之處再向申訴委員會來進行申付所以"},{"start":6461.34,"end":6486.69,"text":"目前來看應該是沒有說救濟程序處於不利地位的一個疑慮所以財產保險業務員的一個申訴委員會對於保險業務員的權益已經有相關的一個監督跟把關的功能然後業務員的權益也有獲得相當的一個程度的保障所以應該是沒有侵害到保險業務員權益的疑慮然後再來有考量說業務員對外"},{"start":6488.591,"end":6508.622,"text":"代表他所登錄的一個保險公司那保險公司基於對他的業務員的管理的必要性跟管理他的一個業務員現行制度給予業務員充分的一個救濟管道所以應該是不用再會同勞動部這邊再修相關的一個保險業務員的一個管理規則"},{"start":6509.702,"end":6526.236,"text":"那有關於教育訓練的部分這邊有修改相關的一個教育訓練的一個要點現在這邊我們是有修改為說可以委託保險相關的機構或團體代表來辦理這樣的一個測驗那當然還是要維護這個測驗的相關的一個品質以上報告 謝謝"},{"start":6537.763,"end":6558.92,"text":"感謝您的發言感謝我們林副主委的發言目前我們登記發言的專家學者都已經發言完畢接下來請行政機關回應相關的意見我待會依序會請我們金管會的副主委勞動部跟法務部來做回應第一位先請我們金管會的林副主委謝謝您"},{"start":6568.047,"end":6595.955,"text":"是主席各位委員先進以及勞動界的好朋友夥伴大家早安大家好好其實呢在這個地方齁其實剛剛賴世保賴委員有提到我是學界出身其實我在這個財經法跟勞動法其實研究也大概我勞動法這一塊就加起來也到三十多年三十多年其實我完全理解完全理解在一個業界這一邊對於他們的勞動三權"},{"start":6599.616,"end":6623.589,"text":"團結團結結社協商跟爭議這個部分以及所謂社會對話跟勞工參與的一個所謂的一個理念跟方向以及呢在民事法上面的一個所謂契約自由形成契約自由形成而且雙方締約平等是不是平等在這個地方的另外一個觀點那再者其實在金管會這一邊的話當然是我們對於一個機關的管理"},{"start":6626.653,"end":6651.083,"text":"對於一個金融業者以及呢其實在延伸下去部分的部分的小部分的一個行為管理行為管理目前為止的對於業務員然後這一邊的以及內容的一個形成其實大概這一個三方的關係所以是說呢在這個部分剛剛這個我們的勞動法大佬林佳樂林老師講勞動界大家對他非常非常的"},{"start":6652.083,"end":6678.389,"text":"稍息他講說這是一個政策的一個選擇而在政策選擇之外在法律方面的部分的話我們如何去就是說在一個主管機關如何去看待大概三點一個跟大家報告一下第一點是對於一個保險法的一個構成內容其實剛剛律師那邊有提到其實保險法是由契約法跟所謂的保險業法所構成所以最主要的一個部分"},{"start":6678.929,"end":6707.246,"text":"最主要部分不管在我們的金管會的這個組織法或這一塊的話我們是保障金融消費者權益並維護保險市場的一個紀律當然所以是說呢在以往的部分我們是著重於這個所謂的保險從業人員的規範部分的話我必須承認我們以往是在一個所謂的資格條件跟所謂招攬行為的一個規範"},{"start":6708.507,"end":6726.606,"text":"而對於他的一個所謂契約內容的一個形成到底是所謂的僱傭承攬勞務這個地方呢是回歸一般的法律跟勞動法律那我們想像中呢想像中的話說締約還是要平等所以才會我們這所謂的勞工領袖我們得用團結權的公會"},{"start":6728.854,"end":6752.516,"text":"工會的一個集結其實對於一個企業組公司這邊才回復到一個所謂的相對雙方有可以議和的這也就是南山南山在這個議題上面其實曾經也跟這個企業工會這邊有一個協定所以是說呢他是一個相對說好嘛但是至少是一個妥協下面的一個好的一個方向"},{"start":6753.598,"end":6775.498,"text":"第二点对于保险业务员管理规则的部分在规则的目的里面其实我们在这个规则里面不再界定业务员跟所属保险公司之间的劳务关系的性质跟内容这也刚刚提到我们没有办法代替法院来判定它第二个"},{"start":6777.438,"end":6803.399,"text":"契約的一個形成也不能由主管監管說你就是必須是勞動契約這個剛剛其實也提到其實交通部那真的是個爛對不起不是個太妥當甚至說有不能講違憲之語但那個方向是有問題的有問題的我就限定你就是這一種就像我喜歡吃你喜歡吃肉你喜歡吃菜我只能限定你就是要吃肉因為他比較健康連我小孩子都不聽耶對啊"},{"start":6804.62,"end":6828.21,"text":"所以是說在這個部分,仍然要有一定的一個選擇的一個部分所以說呢,我們不能去限制勞務契約的一個屬性或它的一個內容在大法官的一個部分,其實我想我不能像林老師剛剛講說這個這個四字是有一點混亂啦,當然講啦,是有一點在認定上面是比較"},{"start":6829.729,"end":6856.568,"text":"在一个标准没有那么的清楚但是呢但是其实它里面有一个内涵或者是他讲得很清楚对于司法自治原则有契约形式的内容有选择的自由其类型可能为雇佣委任承揽拘监所以说如果我们不去看他的判断的一个部分而是在大法官在这边呢他也明白的讲"},{"start":6857.867,"end":6866.394,"text":"要有契約自由形成的自由你遞願的對象你內容的形成已經即是雙方的一個保障"},{"start":6867.692,"end":6886.44,"text":"所以在主管機關,其實國家在這個地方,我們不是一個警察國家所以是說我們退到後面去,要讓工會有力量我講工人的工,勞工者的工工會有力量,讓他在一個地約平等的地位,跟所謂的"},{"start":6888.873,"end":6912.204,"text":"保险公司保险业者在这个地方主管机关要建立平台让他呢有一个所谓的协议的空间所以呢在管理规则部分刚刚讲到一个申诉这个地方其实嗯我觉得就像也是像林老师讲说第三方公正其实这个这个的话我们倒是可以思考因为刚刚有提到说申诉委员会的组成他先有九个委员"},{"start":6912.924,"end":6927.703,"text":"有兩位消費者代表這金融消費者代表其實這也是本來就是保險在這個地方是我們社會的一個保障的一個基礎所以這金融保險金融保險或金融消費者在這個地方"},{"start":6928.183,"end":6956.529,"text":"我們一定要保障他的權利所以他兩位學者三位以及兩位是業者代表再兩位是業務員工會的一個代表其實說看起來說業者代表工會代表是一致那學者的部分或者是說後面的一些程序的話其實這個倒是一個社會參與特別在一個所謂的他們的申訴或其他的一個形成的部分我覺得這應該這是我們今晚會的應該讓他們有一個平臺更多的一個對話"},{"start":6957.409,"end":6980.548,"text":"而且的确有这个例子在114年1月2号发布的官邸规则就说业务员受所属公司停止招揽本来是三个月以上跟一年以下停止招揽的处分也一个协调之后我们修正为一年以下也就是说呢不一定是一定要三个月如果情节轻微的话其实就没有至少要三个月我不是说这个就足够但是"},{"start":6981.669,"end":6996.721,"text":"讓他有一個參與的平台讓他更多的彈性空間這也是我們今晚會必須要做的而教育訓練的一個部分其實對於保險相關專業知識保障保護權益還是要強調今晚會還是要講保障保護權益這是我們優先的"},{"start":7002.79,"end":7031.623,"text":"而其他的教育系列就像刚刚讲多多益善多多益善而在强制的一个部分资格啦或这一些的一些道德规范或这一些我们来说呢其实对于对于这个部分的话我们的管理规则里面呢其实我们跟那个受险工会受险工会在115年的一个3月2号的会议记录也载明了载明说对于机关或团体包括两个全国性的保险业务员工会在内"},{"start":7032.543,"end":7058.8,"text":"所以是說在這個部分如果還需要有一些的我們現在講機關或團體嘛那我們現在是在一個所謂的會議記錄裡面有一個所謂包括兩個工會在內是不是要讓他更在一個所謂的要點裡面更明確一些些呢其實這是有一個討論的一個空間那以上呢這是我們金管會的一個立場當然我覺得社會對法"},{"start":7060.199,"end":7088.842,"text":"多方的一個參與以及讓勞動者的權益勞動者的權利這也是我們政府必須各部會一起來全力協助非常感謝副主委對社會對話我們透過今天公聽會也多聽一些不同的聲音那也可以列入我們金管會未來修法這個保險法修法的方向的討論非常感謝副主委接下來我請第二位我們的勞動部的代表謝謝您"},{"start":7098.298,"end":7118.586,"text":"主席在座專家學者團體代表及各位先進女士先生大家好今天勞工部應邀出席緊究討論提綱涉及本部業務部分檢要的說明那敬請各位先進不吝賜教那關於第一點的討論提綱本部緊究立法例的可能性來去做說明"},{"start":7119.286,"end":7137.056,"text":"那參照交通部觀光署為了確保導遊領隊的一個工作權益他們已經有在旅行業的管理規則第34條第一項規定旅行業在指派那也就是所謂的承攬或者是委任的型態那或者是僱用也就是勞動的一個契約型態的一個導遊領隊"},{"start":7139.417,"end":7164.296,"text":"在執行接待或引導觀光旅遊的一個業務的時候應該要簽訂書面契約這個契約的一個內容不得違反交通部公共所公告的契約不得記載事項那也就是說回到現在的一個立法的一個實務由目的事業主管機關基於他的一個主管法規明定產業的一個特定勞工"},{"start":7164.977,"end":7180.744,"text":"它的一個跟業者之間的一個隆重契約或者是承攬的一個契約的一個形態那因為可以結合產業監督跟管理所以在立法例的一個部分尚無不可所以說如果未來主管機關"},{"start":7181.964,"end":7203.094,"text":"有嚴定相關的一個行政指導的一個部分我們勞動部都會來配合提供協助來確保這些勞動者的勞動權益那關於討論提綱二是否透過公司協力以完善保險從業人員權益保障機制的一個部分因為它涉及到相關法制跟行政措施的規劃以及評估"},{"start":7204.395,"end":7232.512,"text":"那我們會尊重目的實業主管機關的一個意見但是如果保險業的一個相關工會由於所屬公司來建立對話平台或者是協商團體協約的一個需要那這部分我們勞動部當然會提供相關的一個協助來促使勞資雙方可以透過自治協商共同提升保險業務員的一個勞動條件那關於討論提綱三那就是由工會共同辦理保險業務員的教育訓練的一個提議"},{"start":7233.533,"end":7258.668,"text":"的部分考量保險業相關的一個工會那以及幹部多有豐富的一個保險的一個實務經驗而且也常作為保險公司與保險業務員之間重要的一個溝通橋樑那如果目的事業主管機關或者是保險公司有與工會共同辦理這個保險業務員的一個教育訓練的意願那我們勞動部是樂觀其成那最後"},{"start":7259.788,"end":7288.248,"text":"說明就是有利於保險業務員勞動權益保障的一個修法方向本部皆樂觀啟程那關於保險法第177條條文的修正我們會尊重目的事業主管機關的一個權管意見那也會配合大院審查法案那以上報告那敬請委員先進指教謝謝好非常感謝我們今天勞動部的劉專委第三位我要請我們法務部的廖參事謝謝您"},{"start":7297.905,"end":7319.86,"text":"主席還有委員還有在場的專家學者那針對今天的這個提綱我綜合的簡要做個說明就是說我們今天工電會討論的議題大致上它圍繞著一個核心就是保險公司跟業務員之間這一個勞務契約的定性問題那這個問題在司法實務上"},{"start":7327.125,"end":7341.103,"text":"法院的見解並不一致不過大法官解釋把它定調了就是說還是要回歸到個別的這個契約內容個案來判斷那我想"},{"start":7342.489,"end":7369.235,"text":"他留下了一個問題就是到底這個契約要能不能適用這個勞基法是不是勞基法上的勞動契約或者只是純粹民事司法上的司法自治的一個領域我想這個會牽動到保險業務員的這個工作條件福利或者獎懲等等的這一些相關權益的保障問題那"},{"start":7372.233,"end":7386.989,"text":"大院委員會總共有七部委員的修法的提案我想這些提案有一個共通的特色就是在反映這一道問題在反映保險業務員這一方面的一個需求"},{"start":7388.29,"end":7408.378,"text":"至於說提案的內容的設計大概是朝在保險業務委員的管理規則的制定過程當中導入勞動部大概採用的是這個策略到底是不是能夠契合"},{"start":7410.085,"end":7430.012,"text":"業務院管理規則的性質還有能不能根本的解決問題導入勞動部是否能夠根本的解決剛剛所提的這些問題我想今天的專家學者有不同的角度不同的意見那這個部分我們尊重相關主管機關的一個職權意見"},{"start":7432.273,"end":7455.26,"text":"那將來如果有形成共識進入這個修法的領域我們會本部基於這個職責會來協助大院完善法治作業謝謝謝謝我們法務部的廖參事我要請問一下在現場的我們第一輪都已經發言完畢我們第二輪有沒有學者專家要補充意見跟"},{"start":7456.633,"end":7473.361,"text":"沒有好那我們就依據立法院的職權行使法第58條的規定委員會因公聽會終結後的10天之內依出席者所提供的正反意見提出公聽會的報告送交本會全體委員"},{"start":7474.542,"end":7499.044,"text":"送出所以我們會把今天與會者所有大家寶貴的意見作為未來修法的參考並會編成冊送交本院全體委員包括今天出席列席提供建言所有的貴賓們參與如果今天各位貴賓還有其他的書面意見或相關的資料也敬請儘速提供給我們我們會並入這一次公聽會的報告"},{"start":7500.245,"end":7510.694,"text":"再一次我非常的感謝所有列席的學者專家還有每一位工會代表還有在現場包括我們今晚林副主委我們勞動部的劉專委還有包括法務部的廖參事"},{"start":7515.558,"end":7536.653,"text":"你們提供寶貴的意見希望後續我們排定修法的那一天我們希望透過今天的公聽會大家可以聚焦議題聚焦意見比較沒有意見的我們希望可以往前邁進我們在這段時間我們會持續收集大家的意見再一次感謝大家我們散會 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趕快批啊因為很多委員都說尤其是民進黨的立委都說這個很重要很重要所以這個部分以後要多多溝通協調了好這個"},{"start":237.674,"end":253.434,"text":"經濟部的一般性補助款預算請問一下會計處處長這個部長比較不會知道這個一般性補助款114年度跟115年度有沒有什麼差別"},{"start":255.371,"end":282.238,"text":"報告委員我先補充一下剛才委員垂詢的數字我們去年執行的數字大概是1,120億那委員提到的一般性補助款大概我們是跟去年的預算看起來去年是編在經濟部整個放在經濟部那今年把所有對地方的補助款單獨拉到一般性補助款所以大概很多都是延續性的計畫好沒有什麼變動嗎大部分都延續性了好謝謝好"},{"start":284.537,"end":301.049,"text":"这个中央对直辖市及县市政府补助办法,这个也请经济水利署署长也上来,这个办法定得很清楚,对于这个第三条的第一项的第一款,"},{"start":301.892,"end":321.037,"text":"中央各機關依財力及次給不同補助比例且最高補助比例不得超過90%但有下一個情形是一則不在此限有三個部分我今天要特別談的原住民族重要建設計畫可以超過90%按照這個條文的是可以超過90%好在今年1月21號召開協調會針對台東縣"},{"start":332.469,"end":355.319,"text":"的無自來水地區供水改善企劃這個相關的沿管還有這個系統這簡易自來水系統營運的補助這個補助啊這個部長那個你們減少了對台東縣的補助是零喔"},{"start":356.588,"end":372.933,"text":"因為主要是我先說明一下自來水鹽管那個是水公司他付的錢所以是民眾地方政府不用付那另外就是其他的部分包括檢疫自來水或等等因為台東台東縣他就是已經被評為他這個"},{"start":375.294,"end":392.12,"text":"財政是第一級是最好的狀況因為他原來從這個統籌分配款從60億變成281億部長我都了解理由啦你們的理由我都了解但是我要說明的是說剛才條文訂得很清楚"},{"start":393.376,"end":423.076,"text":"援助民族重要建設計畫可以超過90%何況以前也沒有那麼高所以我們只是希望你們維持我們有跟行政院做一些討論如果真的有必要因為您剛才提到那個第三項可以簽給行政院專簽那我們會用這個方式不用專簽你看一下行政院主計總署答覆本席的公文針對我1月21號的公文的會議記錄答覆了"},{"start":424.877,"end":451.451,"text":"是否屬補助辦法第三條但屬鎖定原住民族重要建設企劃能由各主管機關自行認定所以經濟部可以來認定而且他確實是為什麼呢在去年呢你們都把它列為原住民族建設經費列為原住民族建設經費所以可以是符合那個辦法的第三條而且"},{"start":453.234,"end":480.54,"text":"台東縣我們整個台灣 全台灣包括金門 馬祖 離島供水普及率90%以上的有19個直轄市縣市19個未達90%者有5個縣市其中台東縣只有83.9%所以這個部分更是需要列為"},{"start":483.197,"end":503.548,"text":"維持我們不講說90%以上至於起碼維持去年以前的補助的比例部長可以趕快核定嗎主席總書雖然講說可以我們調整但是還是要送到他那邊去就趕快簽請經濟部隨理署趕快簽這個非常非常的重要"},{"start":511.516,"end":529.057,"text":"最後經濟委員會在113年曾經去會刊到台東這是一個已經很久了的老案子而且是有提防 已經有提防在題內"},{"start":531.257,"end":552.568,"text":"所以這個部分你們當初說這個富岡南段1052地號這是我們原住民祖先使用的土地就是因為你們把它列為核酸氣液內所以一直沒有辦法取得原住民保留地然後這個事實上它是在"},{"start":553.769,"end":579.212,"text":"和有堤防啊 這幾十年的堤防在那邊呢好 署長趕快處理報告委員 這個案件城門委員的幫忙 幫忙很多我們現在那個治理計畫已經檢討完成那正在做最後的河川區限劃出去的一個程序那預期七月份就可以把這個土地劃出去就會變成不適合河川地 沒有問題謝謝委員的指導好 加油加油 好 謝謝好"}]}},{"id":"168689","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168689","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5880b40c5769f16ebe1add9aeb77dafa1db81b4b2a7350dfea45507174d0790c047472bec184315ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"10:07:37 - 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以及各位長官 各位縣長今天針對這三個題目我倒過來講有關於我們希望保險教育體系公會共同辦理保險業務員的教育訓練當然可行 為什麼不可行呢我覺得陳副主委也都很清楚我們學界出來的有多一點來承辦"},{"start":25.718,"end":29.662,"text":"那這個主要反對的說法就是就是很怕這一塊給別人搶走了大家來找這些講師大概講師就固定一些講師嘛那大家來搶那我覺得越開放越好啦"},{"start":43.133,"end":66.463,"text":"所以對第三題來講的話我覺得我覺得今天針對是保險業務員他的一些的權益我覺得應該是盡可能的保障業務能夠做的盡可能方塊這是第三題第二題就是有關於第二題跟第一題第二題是連起來的那就先提到第一題就是金管會是和"},{"start":68.044,"end":83.242,"text":"以針對報信業務院跟所屬報信公司構成的勞動企業的情境訂定勞動企業教育訓練獎證制度跟申訴的管道這就今天修法的重點了我當然等一下聽經濟部主管大會的意見"},{"start":87.006,"end":106.992,"text":"我覺得這樣子,主管單位,金管會其實很大的,金管的權力大到你沒辦法想像,我就記得很清楚,我不要前面加形容詞,一個科長,他就要一個金控的大老闆,他們的總資產大概是上兆的,"},{"start":108.253,"end":132.735,"text":"說因為聽說 這是一切的故事聽說這個靈媒有市場串聯他身體有狀況 沒有辦法逝世 叫他來接我經國會的科長就下降了命令我當然不是說這個大老闆有多了不起不是這個意思 而是說有必要這樣子嗎就當事人相關部門來找我做陳情"},{"start":133.886,"end":152.715,"text":"他說這個很簡單啊,你們在什麼地方電視上露個臉就知道了,走路情況好不好,有沒有中風,就清清楚楚啊。後來他的事情就解決了,因為當事人他需要他的健康,讓金管會的主管知道。"},{"start":153.103,"end":177.258,"text":"所以金管會因為有關於金控相關底下的包括保險這都是屬於特許行業金管會非常重要這個是特許的行業要你們所以HIGHLY REGULATED就高度的管理高度的監管那我個人的形象是說大家要這個辦教育訓練大家要講成勞動契約"},{"start":179.139,"end":199.513,"text":"越公開越好越透明越好那今天來講的話修了177條老實講我個人都熱情啟程不要再去框框因為你們想的是什麼金管會的角度你看好了你們的答案一定是金管會的答案一定是希望維持現狀對吧 副主委"},{"start":199.993,"end":207.275,"text":"今天大家知道 大家專家學者 業界的代表都知道今天是陪公子讀書 陪金管會 金管會答案引起主席 NO"},{"start":229.144,"end":245.473,"text":"那我覺得鬧得 要講個道理啊 講個道理啊保險優惠員 不少人喔 對不對 這些人多少人啊啊 金華主委要不要跟我們講一下多少人 保險優惠員多少人多少人 大概多少人37萬對不對 這幾十萬人 不可謂不多啦 對不對"},{"start":255.852,"end":276.033,"text":"這麼多人的一個情況之下我覺得他們的權力的照顧是有必要的啦你不能說一切都在Umbrella都在那個軍控法裡面都是因為我對於軍控已經有一定的規範所以都在軍控公司底下你去運作這個沒有道理啦"},{"start":277.048,"end":295.297,"text":"這個沒有道理 現在人們最大 我覺得要保險業務員保險業務員他們的權益 各方面要收到一定的保障一定的保障最好的方式 就是立法保障所以今天這個法 我個人傾向應該要支持的"},{"start":296.637,"end":320.768,"text":"所以說治理行間怎麼修改我們再來修改我想其他的專家有不同的意見但是我的尊重特別是經國會我們真的拜託副主委你這麼年輕就當副主委這麼大的官拜託你一定要改變你的mindset因為中華民國的官員碰到事情一定找法挑手弄"},{"start":322.233,"end":347.469,"text":"我們能不能啊 這個偉大的副主委 要找法條說YES這個東西啊 才是造福整個社會啦造福台灣幾十萬的保守業務員 他們好好待不服我現在來講 聽起來看起來好像他有自己獨立的快事上都沒有都被掐得死死的啦 這個動騰不得 我覺得不好簡單以上的經驗 請各位指教 謝謝"},{"start":350.346,"end":356.74,"text":"謝謝賴世寶委員其實這個法案每一個會期都有許多委員關注我覺得應該可以從"}]}},{"id":"168688","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168688","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5880b40c5769f1f410521377ee067ca31e0b39ac3e37f8dfea45507174d0798ce2492c85169a165ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王定宇","委員發言時間":"10:01:02 - 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謝謝主席 麻煩主委待會有 待會好 主委謝謝這個待會問完真的千萬不要過來握手戰慾有加 好不好我先請教第一個問題我們當然好不容易拖了那麼久開始進入預算的審查所以第一個就叫一個預算項目"},{"start":28.452,"end":55.447,"text":"我們在退伍府會的國際退伍軍人事務交流其實很重要退伍軍人交流像我們國軍將領跟日本的退役將領那個叫局媒會還是媒局會其實這是很好的外交上的一個互動那我看本席特別注意到你們在2025年編列的預算是474萬那交流的國家呢有你們那時候名列出來是五個國家啦"},{"start":56.462,"end":74.229,"text":"那接下來到2026年也就是今年度國家你們在說明欄上面只剩下三個國家預算呢沒有減少還是474萬我第一個問題是請教主委我們確認是交流只剩這三個國家嗎"},{"start":76.458,"end":101.209,"text":"跟委員報告這上面列的表是完全正確的我們今年為什麼做這個調整因為我們第一個是騎乘美國還是三大退協為主然後增加太平洋區的一個退伍軍組織太平洋區所以美國嚴格來講應該是算四趟每一趟的騎乘有不一樣有做調整人次也會增加那第一島鏈主要是菲律賓"},{"start":101.869,"end":122.052,"text":"那個美國啦或者是日本啦菲律賓這個還有的我先不問啦因為少了兩個國家交流嘛第一個我能理解就是我們的預算年度坦白講我們就算預算通過這個年度大概已經過一半了啦就是很順利通過到五月份三讀通過到你們開始動枝呢"},{"start":122.873,"end":150.117,"text":"我們財政年度過了一半結果預算的執行呢這時候才給你確實會有一些問題所以我的問題是說你的預算額度並沒有減少可是國家少了兩國為什麼泰國跟韓國被拿掉了出了什麼問題我們是太平洋地區以第一島鏈為主所以是以日本跟菲律賓為主然後跟委員報告的我們日本可能去了很多單位"},{"start":151.417,"end":175.74,"text":"有增加 就這三國增加的量是是是但是你還是沒有告訴我韓國跟泰國原來有在交流尤其我們退府會我們在泰北那裡我們曾經有農場我們一個伯伯在那裡他過世的時候親王還為他這樣辦喜我們以前在泰北的農場做得還不錯啊那為什麼現在泰國跟韓國被拿掉了我還是沒有聽到答案我不到處長給您報告"},{"start":176.841,"end":196.158,"text":"委員好,我是輔照處處長,因為我們今年以這個預算我們還是把它重點是放在這個美國三大退協跟日本跟菲律賓,那有關這個到菲律賓跟到泰國的價錢費用差沒有那麼多啦,那坦白講如果有必要474萬變520萬"},{"start":199.181,"end":220.159,"text":"都可以接受你還是沒有回答我泰國跟韓國出什麼問題不能講不方便講我就尊重那裡有沒有什麼事情我們下去以後再檢討今年的預算因為去年後來你們預算我沒有意見我現在是在想項目韓國有沒有展示互動上的不便或不友善沒有泰國呢"},{"start":223.246,"end":239.554,"text":"報委我們下去再跟您報告好了那就是不便講嘛是是是因為你們繞來繞去我就不再講你們額度問題因為那兩個國家被擺明的拿掉泰國我們的我們是有農場在那裡嗎農場現在我們還有沒有工作跟我們交流的農場有交流的農場嗎"},{"start":240.953,"end":257.872,"text":"然後我們以前太北孤軍其實我們以前有一些人在那裡後代當然那邊啊 時代變遷等等所以泰國被拿掉 韓國被拿掉應該是有故事啦那你們不方便講我就不為難主委了啦會後會後對啊 我也為難你 待會不跟我握手"},{"start":259.955,"end":274.515,"text":"好我們下一個下一個是我曾經質詢我現在要追蹤這個事情這跟北榮就有關係了謝謝北榮我們重粒子的癌症治療在精準醫療跟化療的最後一塊拼圖在醫療界這是很重要的"},{"start":275.276,"end":302.381,"text":"很多人把這視為不幸罹患癌症最後特殊那幾種癌症救命的一個方式所以它很貴一個療程可能就幾百萬它非常貴所以幾乎都是自費那我上次問的重點有兩個第一個因為它貴可是花人民納稅的人建制我印象北榮這個重粒子癌症治療中心是全球第14座嘛所以它是世界上它也有稀有性但我們很不希望"},{"start":303.632,"end":309.267,"text":"像我父親是癌症過世的那我們家境不好但我們不希望在治療癌症"},{"start":310.572,"end":336.891,"text":"成為財富變成生命的分界點 懂我意思嗎就不能因為沒錢我就醫不起我有錢我就能醫得起 這個不好所以當時我看到你們安排是有2%的醫療量能要讓這些低收的減免我那時候提出來2%實在太少了我們建置這一個重粒子治療中心都是人民的納稅錢"},{"start":339.601,"end":362.93,"text":"變成你們的基金變成什麼但總是供款所以2%太少了我一直希望能夠增加對於一些收入沒那麼富裕甚至不用完全減免對於一般所得的有一些折扣對於中低收入的給予減免那我們也希望中低收入或一般所得的永遠健康用不到最好但他要用到的時候我們有一定的百分比那你這2%"},{"start":364.813,"end":369.072,"text":"適度來增加這第一個命題第二個命題是我們的農民農卷"},{"start":371.08,"end":396.55,"text":"應該要另外你現在這2%的減免是把榮民農券放在裡面所以那個院長應該印象我上次有問這一題就榮民農券是我們退福會照顧的對象萬一需要的時候他應該有一個項目的減免就幾百萬的是一般自費但對榮民農券我雖然不是中低收入戶可是我一般所得坦白講要拿幾百萬去做中立子也不一定負擔得起所以榮民農券的減免優惠要一套"},{"start":397.25,"end":401.127,"text":"然後對於一般納稅人 一般民眾的減免有另外一套"},{"start":402.403,"end":429.818,"text":"你們現在經過快一年了,你們歸號怎麼樣?報告委員,讓我報告一下先說明這個費用是從幾十萬到一百,最貴的只有一百六十萬那它的...它是一個完整療程?一個完整療程,最多就一百六十萬,看疾病的類別不一樣那比方去年一年呢,它的收入是三億五千萬左右但營運成本是五億,一年平均要虧一點五億"},{"start":430.538,"end":456.392,"text":"那這個建制22.5億是來自民間的幫忙企業界的幫忙剩下22.5億是來自榮總醫療作為基金那這個呢我們已經很努力縱使以後三班24小時運轉一年至少還在賠1億那但是我們收費其實是每一個治療都是在賠錢其實我們在醫療上很少用賠錢來計算就是生命是無價的啦但是呢如果要算的話健保也在虧嘛"},{"start":457.652,"end":484.042,"text":"醫療我比較不期待用這樣來算我們用其他科部的稍微一點英語來補貼這個事情這個方案有沒有新的做法針對農民農卷 針對一般民農卷報告委員現在2% 現在還有8個名額我們過去用了5個 5個有一個是農民那這個是中立子不是每一個人都需要我們很多人要求中立子我們評估這個健保就夠了他針對的癌症別有差異嗎專門的癌症別"},{"start":485.643,"end":504.657,"text":"那不要用大砲打小鳥OK我建議我們北榮或者我們退府會多宣導既然你說名額還沒用完我們希望每個人健康可是當他需要的時候有這個優惠的名額讓他那等到用到不足我們再來討論增加那我們南部有沒有計畫來增設一座"},{"start":505.778,"end":525.187,"text":"如果有醫院願意加入做功德賠錢行列我都很歡迎醫院都在做功德啦所以醫院都是免稅的對不對我們高榮要不要設一座高榮跟文報現在有一個粒子治療設備的一個平均小組你現在看這個醫療資源分配北榮有"},{"start":526.57,"end":539.445,"text":"那中國醫藥大學輻射醫院他要設一座花蓮慈濟也要設幾座他們有計畫啦可能機器還沒有買啦看到我們賠很多他們在考慮沒關係我會到衛房委員會去問那我意思是說南部連計畫設置都沒有"},{"start":541.887,"end":568.445,"text":"那醫療資源不應該有城鄉差距啦我們高榮要不要爭取在南部設置一座否則我知道有一些人舟車勞頓那用到重粒子其實都已經蠻辛苦的高榮有沒有計畫謝謝 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謝謝主席本席邀請我們NCC代主委好 我們請NCC代主委邀請我們速發部林部長好 請林部長教育長主委長主委跟部長請教我們非常重要的強化國家的通訊韌性是這是哪個單位管的這個是我們速發部的韌性司所主管的"},{"start":33.683,"end":36.082,"text":"那法規 相關法規是誰在管"},{"start":37.455,"end":66.398,"text":"像電信管理法有些法規是書法部管有些是NCC的管以那個電信法來講的話電信法就是我們NCC主管的一個法律是所以這種通訊的韌性強化建立這必須要你們兩個單位要來合作是我們現在的通訊網絡大概就是陸海空以一般國家來看的話陸地就是我們例如基地台"},{"start":68.24,"end":90.851,"text":"例如海底電纜那現在經過這幾年全世界都看到了這種透過空中的通訊載體例如像這種低軌衛星是非常重要的尤其在非常時期從俄烏戰爭從伊朗之前之前伊朗因為有一些民眾抗爭"},{"start":94.471,"end":109.119,"text":"伊朗政府就封閉了所有的通訊當時也是透過低軌衛星來提供免費的連線來突破伊朗軍事的政府的那種軍規的網路封鎖"},{"start":113.34,"end":138.625,"text":"那這其中我們也看到剛剛有幾位委員關心過我們海底電纜其實在不用說非常時期啦在平時啊應該就經常發生過被割斷甚至有蓄意的 人為的來破壞這種大概佔了八成以上的因素那陸地的 你像基地台的通訊"},{"start":140.017,"end":160.286,"text":"其實在這次的颱風台南是發生的我們就感受到它的脆弱性所以我們也強化陸地的基地台我們現在有一種所謂的抗災型的強化它抵抗天然災害這種基地台另外也有"},{"start":161.428,"end":176.485,"text":"海底電纜以外 另外最常講的就是如果空中的低軌衛星的建立現在很多國家也都往這個方向去不曉得兩位對這點有沒有什麼看法來 這個主管在後面"},{"start":177.566,"end":203.495,"text":"是 根據我們報告 確實這個韌性是疊加的基本部分是NCC 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越南他們都採取比較開放的做法也就是透過專案審查的方式"},{"start":361.655,"end":377.166,"text":"來在風險當然有一些前提啦在風險可控在國家安全以及未來電信產業的發展不影響的之下來做來引進國際企業和技術在法令上有這樣的一個彈性的做法不知道應徵局的看法怎樣"},{"start":377.406,"end":394.231,"text":"是跟趙偉報告這一塊其實其他國家最近有些鬆綁其實他是有綁定一些剛剛趙偉所講他有些前提比方說跟他一些貿易簽FTA等等有一些綁定一些條件那歐洲特別是西歐很多國家他外資全部放掉其實他對國家對數據組成的"},{"start":396.812,"end":413.583,"text":"把關他價值還存在因為各位別忘了歐洲最厲害的武器就是GDPR這個跨境的個資傳輸資料傳輸他都有嚴格限制所以即便是我們講荷蘭好了他即便外資全部放掉我不管你可是他還是要求"},{"start":414.924,"end":437.823,"text":"目前最受歡迎的那家立委公司在他們還是要設Gateway那這種情況在亞洲國家剛剛我們報告所提到一些日本他有設Gateway那菲律賓也有那其他的越南也好他是綁定一些貿易上的條件所以其實現行的條文其實就如剛剛部長所講的要操作一定可以操作"},{"start":438.283,"end":463.61,"text":"那性性的條文大家看這個目前畫面這邊前面不管是第四項第五項的前面逗點的前面那個前提除法律另有規定外法律另有規定包括條約那我們目前跟假設某些國家有簽FDA或者說跟跟美方的目前的ART假設條款裡頭有些符合的話其實也可以豁免所以既有的法律就有一定的彈性嗎你意思是這樣嗎"},{"start":464.79,"end":484.722,"text":"是的沒錯就是以前面的規定除了法律一定有規定之外那另外也跟召回報告就是說對本國業者的一些衝擊因為大概STARLINK的第二代以前大概相對衝擊不大但是第二代之後他因為衛星間我用時間的關係第一個"},{"start":487.506,"end":508.06,"text":"我們是要考量在這種新科技新技術的這個時代我們現有的法令會不會影響到未來我們建置國家的通訊韌性安全如果有必要我們當然要思考那如何來解決法令鬆綁的問題看有沒有必要性"},{"start":510.842,"end":531.838,"text":"第二個你看一般在一個國家他其實在這方面他越來越有貪心做法我給你看日本在日本這個照片在我左邊這個照片這是日本Big Camera裡面他公開就任何消費者都可以去買STARLINK的設備"},{"start":533.407,"end":562.404,"text":"你回家就可以自己裝了那右邊是日本Costco的照片你看它整個整堆好像酸的民眾隨時可以買回家自己裝所以在這方面因為你不可能所謂的基地台尤其是陸地通信建制我們光是講偏鄉的這個網路落差通訊落差這就不知道講了多少年政府不知道補助這些電信公司多少錢"},{"start":564.079,"end":581.537,"text":"這沒有辦法消除所以那個通訊死角那種城鄉的數位落差就這樣了那像這樣有這種新的技術你就不會有通訊死角這種大部分都是沒有辦法得到正常網路通訊的地方他都可以買回去自己裝"},{"start":582.985,"end":606.996,"text":"你看台灣在這方面已經相對落後了他們已經是變成一種民眾你可以自己考量你有必要就等於民生用品一般啦大型的量販店通路你都可以買得到啦在台灣我們還在討論法規的問題所以這個其實我們已經相對的在這方面我認為政府應該要加快腳步好不好好 謝謝我們NCC 謝謝我們說法部"}]}},{"id":"168699","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168699","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5880b40c5769f17b99be8b0c18536d63685f3e6e8cff85dfea45507174d079b8bb7224aebc51ba5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳秀寳","委員發言時間":"10:18:31 - 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請和安會陳主委陳主委"},{"start":18.237,"end":44.708,"text":"主委好 首先想先請教主委關於我們核能發電未來走向的相關的議題目前我們在新聞上看到日本首相高須早苗在去年他就提出未來他們重點投資17個戰略領域其中是包括了核融核而且他們也已經很明確的有一個具體的時間表"},{"start":46.048,"end":68.519,"text":"他們預估在2030年前要證實核融核發電的可能性目前日本也已經進行超過20萬次相關的實驗我想請教主委核安會目前有沒有在進行相關核融核的基礎研究這方面國研院有已經開始做了相信請國研院回答"},{"start":71.266,"end":96.143,"text":"國運院在三年前就已經成立FOST就是台灣的第一個Tocomark的電漿研究的專制去年年底已經完成初步的建制要經過一年的測試就能夠達到一個做科學研究的設施這是國內百分之..."},{"start":96.903,"end":117.275,"text":"對於核融核相關研究的基礎設計我們是已經有在做了那我想請教主委您這邊是不是也會建議行政院我們參考日本因為這個核融核發電它沒有油廢料沒有核廢料的問題而受到國際間的青睞那我們會不會將核融核技術也列入我們重點發展的技術"},{"start":118.376,"end":132.512,"text":"報告委員事實上日本它是寫2030年代它的意思是2030的末期接近2040可是我們看最近德國宣稱它預估是2060何龍河才有機會"},{"start":134.935,"end":152.676,"text":"有機會而已那包括英國英國的國家的一個研究機構也是認為要205年以後但是日本這個目前我們由科學的來看他有幾個關卡第一個是他的材料需要一億度的高溫要克服這個工程上非常難以實踐"},{"start":153.757,"end":170.6,"text":"第二個它的理論從60年來就是對於托克馬克這一型的理論物理的理論都沒辦法有突破所以整個這兩個大卡關使得全球的合融核恐怕在205年前難以達到能夠提供低度穩定的長期穩定"},{"start":171.141,"end":198.374,"text":"由您的回答我們也可以了解到世界各國其實對於合龍河都非常的重視如同剛才本席說的因為它沒有誘廢掉核廢掉的問題所以世界各國都競相的想要來突破這個技術那我國是不是也會把它列為我們重點發展的這個部分我想我們主要是培訓合龍河方面尤其電漿物理方面這個Plasma的人才因為世界上以歐洲的這個"},{"start":200.867,"end":216.48,"text":"TIER就是核融核的專制他投入了已經兩兆元但是發電還是遙遙無期要等2045年才有DEMO2055年才有專注在人才的培育是人才培育還有一些這個基本設施的維護跟國際"},{"start":217.561,"end":236.73,"text":"研究的話能夠接軌萬一哪一天有機會能夠三轉我們又能夠趕上所以我們雖然說我們在這邊的投入並沒有像國際間那麼快速或者那麼多但是其實我們還是有在專注在這一塊我們也沒有就是放鬆這個腳步好那我想請教那國研委員有說日前有說我們已經觸碰盤點的三種SMR的技術"},{"start":244.153,"end":265.988,"text":"那確認SMR商用商品這個商轉沒有問題之後呢國外授權了我們國內最快在2035年可以發出第一度的SMR的電力那所以說以這個SMR跟合融合這個部分呢我們是有並行的在做只是說現在SMR的進展是比較快也比較明顯是嗎"},{"start":266.949,"end":280.977,"text":"是SMR是核分裂所以核分裂在1940年代就成功所以在技術上技術上完全可行比較容易五年以後應該就有這三種很傳統的都會有商用反應器出來好 謝謝"},{"start":282.918,"end":308.37,"text":"那这边我还是要提醒核安会因为国际间现在认为说既然他们认为核龙核是有可以发展的就是是可行性高的那我们还是要关注国际的趋势虽然说我们现在基础的有建制的但是后面的脚步我们也不能落后因为我们还是在我们自己的国家之内我们要去评估怎样的发电方式对我们国家是最有利的那接下来我想请教"},{"start":309.17,"end":326.203,"text":"主委我們在核能設施除液及核栽應變的處置過程之中機器人成為不可或缺的重要工具但是目前我們這個機器人還是有賴有線連接的操作模式而且很容易受到現場輻射的影響對這些相關的內部的半導體元件會造成嚴重的損壞"},{"start":330.486,"end":359.022,"text":"那電燃也可能因為有纏繞或斷裂這種問題那日本呢他們有投入研發具這個高度抗輻射能力的這個Wi-Fi的接收晶片而且目前他們已經研發成功了在核事故這個核冷的處理現場這個無線操作會帶來一個很大的進展那主委我想請教核安會目前我們有沒有在進行相關就是提升晶片抗輻射能力的這個相關的研究"},{"start":363.304,"end":385.383,"text":"報告委員我們現在在我們的科研計畫裡面我們有這個像用在太空抗輻射的晶片的相關研究我們是有的那是太空抗輻射的這個部分那對於我剛提到的這個在核設施核在應變的相關的機器的應用我們也同樣有這樣的技術在並行研究嗎"},{"start":386.645,"end":398.164,"text":"我們跟國科會的一個聯合的一個科學研究計畫裡面我們有針對這個機器人我想這個委員提的非常好"},{"start":400.175,"end":414.167,"text":"那邊的機器人研究跟我們這邊抗輻射晶片的機器人的研究是不是可以把它combine起來像是日本的這些我們在核災是不是可以應用我想這在未來我們也會投入這一塊來因為其實就像您剛剛回答的"},{"start":417.97,"end":443.759,"text":"那如果它是each同工之妙就是說我們有這樣子的設施那其實可以用在不管是我們太空的產業或是在我們相關的核能設備因為我們現在也有核電廠正在處理的階段那如果有這樣子的抗輻射機器人可以投入現場我想對於相關人員的這些風險會更低更安全"},{"start":444.719,"end":473.232,"text":"你們有沒有預計可以什麼時候來投入相關的這樣的研製這部分非常謝謝委員的提點那是不是容我們在整個完整的仔細研究因為像現在我們的輻射應變方面那這個部分我希望何安慧你們就有這一點就是這個抗輻射機器實際運用的時程你們來做一個規劃那如果有進展的時候請你將一份報告給我辦公室可以嗎"},{"start":474.372,"end":501.057,"text":"是 没问题好 那接下来我想要来请教主委关于合工人才的状况因为刚才我们讲不管是合龙猴的部分SML的部分还是刚才讲这个抗辐射机器人这个研究那这些都需要相关的人才合工人才那我想没有这些基本的合工人才我们未来相关的研究都会受到延宕我想主委您也是认同这样子的是的"},{"start":501.397,"end":528.882,"text":"那在上次的业务报告的时候有很多委员关心我国合工人才培养的问题那再加上说国际间像现在刚刚提到的各种发电的技术啊方式都有新的进展那我们如果要参与或了解相关国际的进度要跟着上脚步我们在合工合能相关的人才都是非常的必要非常的重要我想请教主委我们有没有相关的计划或合作的方式来进一步培养这些人才"},{"start":529.782,"end":554.328,"text":"有的除了我們向教育部升級三位獎金每年三位去美國研讀合共博士之外我們國研院這方面也有做很多這方面的跟國外的實驗室跟大學的一些合作計畫而且我們也替"},{"start":555.615,"end":572.645,"text":"比如说国务院和清华大学争取很多研究经费让他多收一些研究生及做一些研究计划让更多的学生能够加入这个合共的行列这方面我们各方面我们都尽量的努力来争取"},{"start":573.545,"end":591.913,"text":"所以主委您也是非常的用心在我們人才的培育這一塊但是我也希望說除了我們很用心的我們讓這些人才有深造有進修的機會之外呢他們到國外去進修也好還是說我們從國外吸收這些人才進來國內也好"},{"start":593.314,"end":615.019,"text":"就希望說我們有更好的條件那有更讓他們可以發揮的空間因為這個我們相關的合共發展如果我們培育人才結果他後來是往國外去發展的是一個很大的損失所以除了說我們去培育他之外我們要有怎樣的制度有怎樣的環境讓他們可以留在我們國內我想這是非常重要主委您的看法呢"},{"start":615.499,"end":631.895,"text":"是的,我們要有機制吸引合共人才到臺灣工作或留下合共人才這方面各方面我們都有做這方面的工作那這個我希望說你們可以給我一份你們對於相關培育人才的報告給我辦公室可以嗎?"},{"start":632.995,"end":657.55,"text":"我再跟主席借一點點時間喔接下來我想請教關於我們核醫藥的國家隊的問題喔我國的核醫藥呢八成以上是來自進口但因為缺乏這個藥品韌性而且因為核醫藥呢它的藥品的特性它是沒辦法囤藥它的百酸期很短它沒辦法囤藥我們也常常因為受到國外一些外在因素的影響呢所以"},{"start":658.23,"end":676.839,"text":"我們一些合一藥我們必須要有自己有辦法自產自製那剛才我有聽到你們的回答其他委員就說我們將來我們在新的這些設施這個70mEV迴旋加速器如果建制完成我們的合一藥品會有7成以上是可以自製是這樣嗎"},{"start":678.28,"end":706.938,"text":"包委員是 現在某些藥物啦 像加67我們已經百分之百那土耳其新基銜以下現在是四成左右那明年70MV會今年年底完成建制 四年的建制 明年開始測試所以明年以後可以提高 應該可以提高到七成到八成那我還是要請教喔 未來我們相關的核醫藥自產自製我們最急需的是什麼 除了設備 我們的人才呢"},{"start":710.405,"end":735.636,"text":"報告委員 人才方面我們現在同位訴所 相關的人才已經有接近100位的同仁 他們都是35年前第一台30MV很多都是35年第一台30MV開始建置完成 運轉的時候就已經在那一邊 還有一些同仁是這樣那最近幾年我們也極力招募 今年我們也開放10個區 就給合一藥物"},{"start":736.496,"end":765.396,"text":"针对这个国家药物团队这个所需要的不管是生物科技或者是药学或者是生命科学的这一方面的人所以我们已经有针对未来我们核医药的发展所需要的人才在做培训以及招募是是是那我这边再问你刚才我们提到了关于这个太空元件的抗辐射这个我们相关的这些太空中心跟核安会的合作对于太空元件抗晶片这个晶片抗辐射的检测"},{"start":766.376,"end":784.012,"text":"這個部分這個機制我們是由我們這邊主動還是說你們怎樣的一個合作是我們對於這個低軌道衛星還有車輛的這個晶片我們長期跟國內一些半導體廠都把晶片送來我們這邊做測試這是從三年前就開始先用32V這個是"},{"start":786.734,"end":808.386,"text":"10到30個NVV將來70個NVV完成以後可以低軌道衛星可以擴散到30到70個NVV所以這個都已經有規劃而且現在國內一些晶片的大廠都有送過分他們所需要原來要去國外測試的晶片先送來我們這裡做測試目前已經在進行三年以上"},{"start":808.971,"end":832.587,"text":"好謝謝最後本席還是要強調核安不只是只有發電的時候我們要去顧慮到其實在醫藥上在醫學上醫療上都非常的重要所以希望說核安會跟其他的部門也要相應的就是持續的合作然後繼續來精進我們要顧好核安才能保護我們民眾的安全以上謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168695","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168695","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5880b40c5769f1acd8df590777176bf38d440c98c629e7dfea45507174d07920347047a26059635ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱慧洳","委員發言時間":"10:09:37 - 10:23:12","影片長度":"00:13:35","會議時間":"2026-04-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請環境部部長、國家科學及技術委員會、交通部、經濟部、內政部、農業部、衛生福利部、國家發展委員會就「我國氣候變遷調適現況檢討與全球調適目標接軌之推動情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查中華民國115年度中央政府總預算案關於環境部主管預算案。(公務及非營業特種基金預算案)\n三、審查中華民國115年度中央政府總預算案直轄市及縣市政府一般性補助款環境部主管部分預算。\n四、審查環境部函送財團法人環境資源研究發展基金會等4家財團法人115年度預算書案。\n\n【預算案僅詢答，115年4月30日下午5時截止收案】\n【專題報告及討論事項綜合詢答】\n\n【4月22日及23日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2026-04-22","start_time":"2026-04-22T10:09:37+08:00","end_time":"2026-04-22T10:23:12+08:00","duration":815,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":5,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-5-26-7"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.063468750000002,"end":14.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.42534375,"end":18.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.46284375,"end":18.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.12096875,"end":18.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.69471875,"end":19.403468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.70721875,"end":21.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.68159375,"end":23.132843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.26346875,"end":45.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":45.99846875,"end":47.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.12909375,"end":48.59721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":48.057218750000004,"end":48.61409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.61409375,"end":52.12409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.360343750000006,"end":66.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":66.50159375,"end":74.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.20596875000001,"end":68.66159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.23096875,"end":70.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.96471875,"end":74.29784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.50034375,"end":78.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":74.68596875,"end":74.97284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":78.58409375000001,"end":88.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.70909375000001,"end":90.37971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":90.71721875,"end":97.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.72096875000001,"end":93.85596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.92721875000001,"end":116.67096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":116.90721875000001,"end":119.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.34159375,"end":118.86471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.80971875,"end":119.84346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":119.84346875000001,"end":129.71534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.77909375,"end":127.01534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.76596875,"end":138.92909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.31721875,"end":145.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":139.38471875000002,"end":139.84034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":146.05034375,"end":156.59721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.90659375,"end":148.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.34096875,"end":149.49284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.23034375,"end":188.55846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":188.55846875,"end":195.89909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.02596875,"end":198.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":198.75096875000003,"end":204.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.69159375,"end":202.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.97784375,"end":212.77409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":212.85846875000001,"end":221.59971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.92471875,"end":223.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":221.93721875000003,"end":235.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.02784375000002,"end":265.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":240.93846875000003,"end":241.41096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":265.32284375,"end":284.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.54034375000003,"end":277.96221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.48096875000005,"end":279.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.49784375,"end":279.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.95721875000004,"end":288.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":287.80034375,"end":295.15784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.88784375,"end":298.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.60034375000004,"end":310.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":299.37659375000004,"end":301.13159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":304.59096875,"end":313.65284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.65284375000005,"end":354.11909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":354.67596875000004,"end":369.93096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.90596875,"end":369.86346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.26846875,"end":391.27784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":391.27784375000005,"end":397.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","star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去年我們這邊掌握的數字是12.1那沒關係也許可能是數字來源有一點落差但是您掌握的數字顯然還比我們高0.7那部長知道這個全台灣有哪幾個行政區域他的PM2.5是最高的嗎應該是南部 特別是應該是高雄"},{"start":72.034,"end":96.908,"text":"我不記得這個項目 請市長來答好 沒有問題 再請市長補充說明包委員 目前我們PM2.5合格的只有8個縣市比較不合格大部分在中部跟南部地區的情況那請問您有掌握數字嗎數字大概 因為它平均是12.8所以中南部的部分大概就在15到16左右"},{"start":97.088,"end":116.305,"text":"我們掌握的數字比這個還再淒慘一點就是來我們看一下雲林是17.4那這個高雄是17.3分別就是數一數二的高在所有的縣市當中那部長請問您知道WHO平均的PM2.5的濃度是多少嗎"},{"start":116.966,"end":135.66,"text":"你說WHO的標準還是全世界的濃度全世界的平均濃度全世界無法這樣算而且它WHO是一個概念式的如果按照WHO5的話維克的話全世界基本上沒有什麼幾個國家可以達標對 但是當然您提到的這個5是一個標準嘛但是我們台灣呢遠高於這個5好幾倍遠高於5這個好幾倍對 那我的意思就是說其實空汙的問題呢影響國人的健康勝據請問部長認同嗎"},{"start":146.347,"end":175.547,"text":"我認同 但是也跟委員報告這空汙的來源你不能用這樣的一個數字來看因為它有很多的來源我們的這種各種的移動型的我想來源不是人民關係人民關係是實際他身處在這個空間當中他有沒有送到這些空汙的清洗那我們來講空汙有可能會造成什麼過去五年有統計出來肺癌是十大死因的第一位而且不可否認的空汙的塵埃其實會侵襲人類的血管壁"},{"start":176.727,"end":197.793,"text":"清洗的那個血管壁可能會造成血管硬化也會造成血栓血栓流到腦部會造成中風流到心臟會造成心肌梗塞這完全是不可忽略的健康危險因子啊對 所以我們對症下藥我要把移動員各種的來源哪一個影響最大把它抓出來然後針對它做管制目前抓出來的移動員最高是什麼"},{"start":198.82,"end":219.916,"text":"就是汽機車啊 汽機車是最多的目前在台灣的整體而言 移動員已經高於固定污染源了那請問一下那您覺得雲林地區呢如果麥寮電廠要重新重啟會不會是一個很大的污染源這個要經過的才算因為這個我相信因為我們也是看到報載說有這個為了這個能源的危機可能有一些這個應對這個請他們來回答"},{"start":221.957,"end":234.892,"text":"但是給委員報告一個數字就是說我們從這個每年的這種所謂的各種各式各樣的來源比例我們的電廠大概在所有的這個排放源當中只有在幾%而已電廠"},{"start":237.074,"end":264.684,"text":"是不是污染源我想人民的感受可能跟你這邊有落差剛我們也看到數字雲林是17.4高雄是17.4恰恰這兩個地方都有電廠那我想電廠造成的空汙呢我覺得在人民的感受裡頭已經是一個不爭的事實那我現在跟你請教的是麥寮電廠要重啟麥寮電廠要重啟可能會讓空汙的情形雪上加霜有可能會衝擊到當地居民的健康那部長這件事情問你要怎麼維護"},{"start":265.524,"end":294.637,"text":"包委員你剛才說了台北市平均是9.4那你剛才說雲林是17點多那其實有不一樣的天氣氣候形態跟那個什麼跟各種原因會造成所以我們要對症下藥那至於說這個火力發電廠多少會造成這個空污的增加這是一個科學的問題所以你們這邊掌握的科學數字難道你要否認這個科學的數字嗎科學的事實嗎這個17絕對不是或是數字全部都是不是都是火力電廠造成的還有很多的來源所以我們要對症下藥"},{"start":294.997,"end":306.348,"text":"很多的來源 那很多的來源 那麥寮你覺得不是主因你這個話一講出來原因之一那佔比重多少因為你好像有點要輕輕的要放輕輕的放過這樣的數字好那沒有問題我只想請問你為什麼麥寮電廠要重啟這個不是我的權責好不好"},{"start":313.715,"end":317.637,"text":"那請陳副署長麥寮電廠為什麼要重啟我們從報章雜誌來看到這個4月16巩明新部長他就提到說這個要為了天然氣的一個彈性調度的原因所以麥寮電廠重啟了但是4月13我們的卓院長是怎麼說的"},{"start":332.344,"end":353.734,"text":"卓院長說四五六月天然氣調度無虞怎麼經過三天之後風雲變色情況批變變成是要去彈性調度這個天然氣以至於我們麥寮電廠要重啟我們的雲林居民何辜要用他們的費來發電犧牲他們的健康來成就這個電力的供應"},{"start":354.734,"end":368.567,"text":"跟委員報告主要是美伊戰爭那我們要增加台灣的能源韌性的部分那這個電廠他的電業執照還沒有過期的條件底下我們還重啟三個月不過這部分的話台電公司也承諾好那我們只記得部長"},{"start":370.308,"end":389.162,"text":"部長誇花其詞就是說四五六月天然氣供應無虞怎麼經過三天批變所以我們這邊想問一下就是我們的政府當然問人員署當然就是到底天然氣是供應無虞還是供應不足因為讓我們感覺很混淆一下子感覺很充分一下子又不足感覺"},{"start":389.922,"end":415.167,"text":"讓我們看了非常的疑惑根文報告每一戰爭以後經濟部每天都召開應變會議目前在做天然氣的調度的部分在六月底之前都供應無虞的部分可是我們要增加我們能源韌性的部分我們不能把所有的天然氣全部來用所以如果以一個所謂的一個月的麥寮電廠可以減少兩個船的天然氣的條件可是你這個是以麥寮的居民的健康作為犧牲讓他們用廢發電讓PH"},{"start":417.967,"end":435.558,"text":"PM2.5的濃度上升然後讓大家的血栓不斷的在形成然後最後傷害我們的頭腦跟我們的心臟這付出了健康代價是很大的我們現在請問一下那個台電請問一下台電能夠回答我們一下新達電廠的4號機今年能不能夠如期的除疫"},{"start":438.559,"end":458.247,"text":"委員好 跟委員報告今年四號機的部分呢那因為我們目前這個若按照環評我們四號機的部分今年年底是會進入除役那會轉成備用期所以就是可以如期除役嘛那我想我們全部的人在場都可以見證您今天的說法那我們也期待在年底能夠除役"},{"start":458.727,"end":476.495,"text":"因為麥寮的居民已經用廢發電了我們不希望高雄的居民再用廢發電因為這個PM2.5的濃度太堵了是造成十大死因肺癌的首因那我現在如果提起新達電廠的4號機那就不得不提起這個4號機跟3號機組在2004年9月30之後一直到隔年2025年的5月23號這段期間違法運作的情形"},{"start":486.119,"end":507.913,"text":"請問一下這個處長你有印象嗎我跟委員報告並不是違法運作應該依照我們這個整個法規的規定我們除役之後的機組是可以轉為緊急備用機組但是緊急備用機組也是在我們目前國家法令的規範之下它有它的運轉條件其實我知道這一段我完全有掌握但是這一段就是這個主管機關傻傻說不清楚那我們呢"},{"start":510.054,"end":526.284,"text":"已經認定了他就是一個違法的運作那如果這是一個違法的運作的話我們可以用這個例子來檢視空污法的救法跟現行法的妥適性那如果今天3號跟4號機組他的操作許可正式到9月"},{"start":527.144,"end":547.41,"text":"2014年的9月30號到期那如果用舊法來檢視呢來我們看一下舊法我們PPT上面有舊法如果呢操作許可證到期那就應該要停止運轉這是用舊法操作出來的結果相信也比較適切但是在2018年6月25號呢民主進步黨他去主導這一條的宣法他把"},{"start":547.79,"end":558.481,"text":"把它改成說操作許可證到期之後如果電廠有申請展延那麼在展延的過程當中主管機關會進來審查整段審查的過程當中機組是可以照常運作的但這裡會出現兩個荒謬的現象第一個荒謬的現象就是這個機組其實已經超過"},{"start":569.232,"end":585.857,"text":"操作許可的日期了那你讓這樣的一個機組繼續的運作有沒有安全上的疑慮這是一個荒謬值得思考的地方第二個呢這個機組呢已經超過操作許可日期了你讓他繼續運作而他的運作是取決於行政部門的審查期間"},{"start":586.997,"end":600.661,"text":"行政部門審查越久他可以運作越久一個機組的運作是取決於行政部門的審查期間而不是取決於他的機能不是取決於他的安全不是取決於他的效能這個會不會太荒謬這個會不會太可笑來這個請處長回答"},{"start":604.602,"end":627.752,"text":"好謝謝委員那基礎的安全基礎的效能並不會因為我許可證的展延申請有受到任何的影響那因為法授予人民有一定的保障的權利那因為合法的業者業者在許可證申請期間那目前的法規的規定是授予業者在申請期間行政審查過程當中仍然可以依照原證的條件繼續操作這跟安全還有"},{"start":628.132,"end":655.038,"text":"原政的條件那如果空污很高也是要按照原政的條件操作嘛申請展延一定有他行政把關的目的完全不會像你這樣子完全好像是跟原狀來運作也完全沒有任何健康上安全上效能上的疑慮好那所以我們台灣民眾黨呢認為說2018年民主進步黨所修法的這個叫做霸王條款就是要讓台電的機組呢能夠無限上綱的運作下去"},{"start":655.498,"end":671.824,"text":"取決於行政部門的審查期間而這個審查期間有可能就是一個大開方便之門的一個條文所以我們台灣民眾黨提出一個版本就是如果這個申請展延的案件超過操作許可期限至多只能夠操作兩個月"},{"start":673.004,"end":698.746,"text":"那過了兩個月如果行政部門的審查結果還沒有出來就是要立刻停機這個是我們台灣民眾黨為我們控制空汙跟減少空汙盡的一份努力特別今天是世界地球日我們必須把這個訴求呈現出來各位委員報告也請委員要務實一點因為有些地方過去有發生過一些事實是地方用一些原因藉故一直延期讓這個完全許可證完全沒法所以我們就是要杜絕這個亂象"},{"start":700.467,"end":728.24,"text":"那個亂象不是任何業者造成的是有些行政機關他特別的去做處理所以我們就是要讓這些行政機關能夠不要上下其手的空間那除此之外剛處長這邊有提到說什麼展延期間還可以按照允許可證那你這樣不是讓申請展延的行政流程流於這個一個流於一個形式嗎所以我們台灣民眾黨也提出另外一個修法當行政機關他在申請"},{"start":728.98,"end":753.268,"text":"他在申請展言行政機關在審理展言案件的時候我們對於原許可證有一個變更的權限什麼情況之下有變更的權限就是在這個機組的操作有害於民眾的健康之餘所以我們修法也修出這樣的一個方向來那其實也是為了控制空污也是為了保障人民的健康所以我們有做出一個這樣的修法"},{"start":754.108,"end":773.37,"text":"那請問一下處長您的看法跟委員報告齁其實這個展延的這個相關規定其實在原來的空氣污染相關法規就已經有只是後來修正的時候把它修到母法去原因是基於性愛保護原則因為業者提出這樣的申請以後因為行政機關的審查拖延導致他必須要"},{"start":773.971,"end":801.619,"text":"法律他去修正有各種原因你講的信賴保護原則那是你的說法那我覺得展言呢我們要盡好我們行政機關的職責所以呢我們在這邊提出修法提出修法就是避免讓部長剛說的行政機關有上下其手的空間我們把它防堵起來除此之外對於申請展言的允許可證行政機關也有一個變更的一個權限理由就在於如果他發現有傷害到人民健康之慾這是我們台灣民眾黨"},{"start":802.659,"end":810.267,"text":"提出來的修法方向那今天是世界地球日我們就在這邊跟大家分享然後讓大家看到台灣民眾黨所做的努力那以上說明謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168694","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168694","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5880b40c5769f161db2051feb6f1c469f826bc43123a8ddfea45507174d079080973923c6b5d8c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李柏毅","委員發言時間":"10:15:59 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那有請那個閻主委還有那個北榮陳院長"},{"start":13.078,"end":36.803,"text":"今天在審預算那天我也把預算看了一下當然也參考了一下預算中心的報告大家知道我過去是勞動學者所以我就把很多勞動上的一些配置有特別看了一下預算中心的報告裡面也講到尤其是護理人員缺額非常嚴峻我們等一下再來講護病比的狀況"},{"start":39.123,"end":58.771,"text":"因為玉山村也有把幾個榮總醫院的部分違反勞動法的部分有列出來那我就特別去查了一下初委跟院長知道現在依照勞動法80條之一跟職安法49條如果違反的話他是會在網路上公告的"},{"start":59.831,"end":88.312,"text":"這個大家都知道嘛 這個都是查得到我想這個事情其實不是只有罰錢的事情我想又涉及到很多我們這個醫院的一些信譽啦一些傷友 我覺得這個可能要特別注意一下啦那我看了預算中心的報告 然後我又查了一下我今天特別拿電腦來那我發現好像115 最近喔還有一些裁罰的紀錄 院長應該知道吧像勞基法 像一個聘用住院醫師的事情"},{"start":89.335,"end":106.199,"text":"不只不只然後還有一些像這個30條還都有這個相關的問題甚至加班好像是比較是在分院的部分就是他的一些登載玉里分院那院長這邊有沒有針對這個部分有一些改善的方法"},{"start":107.38,"end":128.712,"text":"報告委員我們現在對勞基法這個政府的規定當然是非常嚴守因為現在的醫療人力短缺你如果沒有尊重被放上網路以後你的人力會更短缺所以這一塊是非常的重視但是體系很大你每一個角落你要顧到說哪一個同仁剛好有點違反了我們讓醫院馬上處理"},{"start":130.113,"end":158.814,"text":"那聘用助醫師那事情是一個誤會,他根本不是有好處我們要講那件事啦醫療跟醫院他已經積極在處理醫院的委員會裡面很重視這一塊這個事關我們的競爭力,事關我們能不能招收到好的人才所以每一個體系,每一個兄弟,大家都,院長都每一個重視是是,我就舉幾個簡單的例子啦他違反勞資法24條啦那24條是什麼就是他延長工時,就是我們一般所用的加班啊他沒有給加班費啊"},{"start":159.474,"end":182.266,"text":"我想現在這個時候是不該再有這樣子的一個現象出現了現在都用電子化所以會讓他的那個這種失誤人為操作的低級錯誤會降低對 因為有一些像這個30條一些紀錄的部分我都沒有說到我覺得像24條這種就是加班沒有給人家加班分我覺得這個就不該出現了因為其實人力就已經很短缺了怎麼還會發生這樣的狀況"},{"start":184.167,"end":204.927,"text":"那我是希望就你們這個醫院不管是分醫院它這個HR的系統可能要有一些些改善的方式剛剛到底是什麼東西出了問題我知道啦其實我想很多人都不願意違背勞動法我接觸了很多對象那其實都是一些有些人說沒注意或怎樣所以希望這個有一些改進的一個狀況"},{"start":206.388,"end":232.148,"text":"那另外其實還不只勞基法好像還有一些違反像114 113還有一些性品的狀況就是那個資訊的時候要做一些處理要做立即有效糾正補救措施這個好像是在南部的榮總這個我今天就不再多說那我是希望因為人力非常短缺所以這個部分可能要特別注意那另外就是"},{"start":233.149,"end":250.408,"text":"剛剛前面那個陳委員有提到,我有特別去查了好像那個災保法也有處罰了一件這個院長應該知道這個好像罰了兩萬塊,就最近的事情嘛那這個部分是怎樣?填報的系統或者是申報的狀況有問題嗎?還是?那個是我們關都醫院,關都醫院是台北市政府委託榮總經理"},{"start":252.15,"end":267.447,"text":"他在早上忘了簽到,結果他就用手寫,他沒有記錄時間這種已經請官路院院長一定要嚴格管理,一定要詳述時間才能有公平正義所以這個會注意,官路院也在注意"},{"start":268.171,"end":289.65,"text":"這個可能是公司的部分,好像有一個比較是工資申報的部分,工資的金額到底是多少錢?那個是聘用住院醫師,那不適用勞基法你是說官渡那一個嗎?官渡是,官渡是簽到的問題,那榮總的問題是聘用住院醫師的問題聘用住院醫師的問題,榮總是無辜的,現在在溯源"},{"start":292.999,"end":319.838,"text":"所以我覺得不只那一項啦那因為我看到非常多項啦也許這個院長如果有什麼樣的問題我們可以討論一下因為我沒有想到拉出龍種竟然會有這麼多的這個違反的這個案例啦那因為現在其實這次預算中心他報告也有講到啦就是因為這樣齁其實我們這個貨幣比其實比例非常非常高我聽到前面的委員也有提到這個事啦我不曉得現在就龍種來說這個事情應該要怎麼解決啊或者說我知道你們也有你們的困難啦"},{"start":320.838,"end":345.886,"text":"北榮現在三班護病筆是達標的而且我們得到的三班護病筆的獎勵金是全國公立院最高的那急診室又不用塞就會證明一切急診室如果用塞你的一定有問題榮總急診室井南有序都控制在獄子之內 中榮也是控制得很好我想其他我們的總院都控制得很好那護病筆不是問題在最大的問題也需要立法院幫我們解決"},{"start":346.906,"end":371.951,"text":"公務員55歲護理師為勞降職比早退休我們再怎麼努力收新的護理師去年就退掉76個到私人醫療機構去領第二份薪水領退休金結果這樣子私人醫院65歲才要退甚至更勞我們公家機關60歲護理師如果沒有任主管一定要退這個是對公立醫院非常傷害公立醫院是一個發展非常困難"},{"start":375.552,"end":391.019,"text":"是啦 院長我不是在說你們做得不好啦我是聽說啦就很多人因為我是在做勞動的嘛有的人跟我說一些意見包括院長剛剛說的都是啦那因為我們前幾年把這個55歲那個圍牢把護理人放進去啦我知道這個狀況所以我是希望啦我們共同來努力啦"},{"start":391.559,"end":417.005,"text":"因為現在醫療院所的人力配置非常不容易而且因為你們很細,剛剛我說的這些有關勞動法上的規定都希望我們可以一起來努力把維碼勞動法把它做好,分比能夠更好讓更多的醫療人力,尤其是護理人員他們願意加入我們榮總的行列以上,謝謝我們都有掌握,我們會持續邀請他們改善好,謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168692","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168692","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5880b40c5769f1e388846705b5bc8a63685f3e6e8cff85dfea45507174d079231dcb1897cc80d85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭昱晴","委員發言時間":"10:07:47 - 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跟委員說明那有關於運轉能源考試這一部分那會裡面本身就有一套的考試機制由河岸會的自己的資深同仁來擔任那考試的題目當然依照法規都會包括正常運轉操作跟異常的操作"},{"start":175.695,"end":189.916,"text":"那異常操作就會包括剛才委員所提到的在運轉期間可能會遇到一些問題都會納入考試的題目裡面所以考試的內容應該會什麼時候再設計包括正常跟異常的狀況好"},{"start":191.238,"end":212.634,"text":"那另外就是對於所謂的這個離開一線多年的這樣子的一個人再回來那我想這個專業度很重要我剛剛講這個部分是不是也放在所謂的專業的審查的一個範圍當中而且我們是用同樣的一個標準而不是因為說他們已經離開了現場多年然後回來之後我的考試的這個分數或者是我的標準降低會這樣嗎不會"},{"start":213.955,"end":242.039,"text":"因為有關於退離的人員再回來去支援電廠這部分也是屬於台電公司的包商管理這一環那這部分本來就是台電公司要依照品保的程序去進行包商的資格管控以及作業程序的品質的掌握那會裡面 合安會也會透過現場視察去查證台電公司整個作業包括包商這一部分的作業品質"},{"start":243.1,"end":257.571,"text":"那如果專業人力不足我剛剛有提到第三點如果專業人力的不足那沒有達標那這個部分我們要怎麼辦還有沒有更多的一個新的一個機制好 跟委員說明再來"},{"start":258.671,"end":276.982,"text":"核安會的再運轉計畫裡面就已經明確規定了就是除了法規規定以及運轉跟維護人員的配置啊訓練啊以及證照等等都有一些明確的規定要求台電公司要將基礎恢復到運轉的狀態這部分都有規定去"},{"start":277.662,"end":294.504,"text":"到時候就會去檢視所以人力的標準會公開會公開然後再來就是也要有紅線那如果真的不達標是不是就考慮會駁回在運轉這樣的計畫當然法規規定的一些運轉法規規定的能力這部分一定要達成的"},{"start":294.824,"end":318.982,"text":"好 這個是針對人力的部分那麼第二個我要談的這個主題其實現在大家都在談這個小型的這個SMR那我想這個國內我們的學術其實也正啟動跟國外的一個交流但是我還是要提醒這個技術是可以討論但是風險不能等到發生才研究技術可以討論風險不能等到發生才研究那我想這個我們自己的"},{"start":320.263,"end":335.255,"text":"還是我們目前是有自己的一個整個所有的研究的這樣子的一個計畫還是說我們都是聽國外的廠商或者是國外的這個他們的一些專業的一個數據那我們政府手上自己有沒有所謂的完整的一個風險的一個數據這是第一個問題第二個問題就是核廢的種類會不會不一樣"},{"start":339.819,"end":351.844,"text":"核肺的種類會不一樣因為包含NCM的核肺種類還有它的壽命還有它的儲存方式是不是跟我們目前所認知的其實是還是有一些就是專業性上的一個不同這是第二個問題那現在的法律能不能夠支撐"},{"start":355.345,"end":372.081,"text":"我所謂的現行的一個制度其實我們是為了所謂的這個就合點來設計的那麼將來如果比方說這個SMR的部分我們未來是不是可以用得上那我想要做研究還要修制度但是我們還是要談安全這個問題那這個部分是不是請教主委"},{"start":374.053,"end":378.674,"text":"好 包含我剛剛有提到的就是SMR它的壽命還有它的合費是不是有些不同它的標準"},{"start":400.567,"end":416.585,"text":"包委那個SMR它的壽命如果是看哪一種形式它有分傳統清水式跟核一二相產類似的另外非清水式的像熔岩式反應器還有這個Motor Saw Reactor還有這個"},{"start":418.787,"end":433.694,"text":"快終止的反應器這種的壽命因為是比較新的使用所以它的壽命就現在還在測試階段要等五年以後比較可以明確那對於這個核廢料的"},{"start":435.414,"end":454.785,"text":"處理就是基本上傳統的核廢料清水式反應器SMR跟我們大型的差不多但是有三種像Modern Solar Reactor還有這個Nature另外三種反應器它可以大幅減少七成以上的傳統跟傳統核廢料可以減少七成以下的核廢器物"},{"start":455.646,"end":470.783,"text":"我想這個部分其實為什麼我今天會特別的提出來因為其實大家對於SMR還是有一些期待但是我們不能只講好處然後不談風險這是我想要點出的一個問題最後一點時間我想這個合一的藥品它其實不是存量的問題我想這個是時間的問題"},{"start":473.686,"end":488.442,"text":"那我要談的是國家藥物的韌性我想很多人其實忽略了一件事情就是合一的藥品其實它是不能囤也就是因為它的效果會隨著時間而衰退像大家現在都在聚焦所謂的TC99M"},{"start":489.463,"end":507.723,"text":"半衰期其實只有六個小時那它是用在哪裡呢它是用在比方說像甲狀腺啦或骨骼啦或者是腦部的一些檢查那就算有其實它有時間的一個半衰期但是這個問題不只是有沒有而是來不來得及那這個部分其實我們在整個所有的"},{"start":508.163,"end":529.789,"text":"大家在聚焦這個部分那我們其他的一些合一的需求該怎麼辦那另外呢我們的產能到底夠不夠還是我們這一半是仰賴進口那另外就是說沒有原料但是其實試劑也很重要所謂的試劑沒有KIDS這些醫院根本用不了那這個部分我們是不是簡短的回答一下是那個產能的部分"},{"start":530.949,"end":558.392,"text":"產能的部分像TC99半衰期是只有6小時但是我們有一個KIT可以來發生器可以來產生這個所以就是透過這個計畫那雖然是TC99所以現在還在進發階段還是說我們自己已經開始有國內自主的一個產能這個產能目前是還是靠進口沒有錯但是我們還有其他的新機梗塞的鑄灌劑像剛剛所說的Solen201現在供應量是4成"},{"start":559.273,"end":573.591,"text":"我們70MV明年上來以後可以到七成到八成那加67這個半衰期78小時這個達到目前是百分之百將來也應該是百分之百這個另外KIDS的供應這個"},{"start":576.161,"end":602.55,"text":"因為不同跟不同的試劑來做一個熬合所以它的班差距比較短所以必須為什麼要藥物韌性必須在醫院裡面立即做標記標記以後不能長期仰賴國外進口所以要透過這樣一個四年的藥物韌性計畫來提高一個藥物韌性的一個自主跟國內尤其在疫情或者特殊的狀況戰爭時候能夠有儲備足夠的核藥物"},{"start":605.591,"end":632.99,"text":"戰備的庫存的一個標準這個也一定要就是準備好這個不管是中期或者是短期甚至我們的長期那最重要的是有原料沒有用其實四季也很重要我們也鼓勵我們自己國內有這樣子的一個生產的一個量能存在好那我想今天這個不管是核電也好SMR也好或者是我們講的這個合一的藥物其實本質都是同一件事情安全不能打折那準備不能做半套然後再來我們的資訊一定要公開好 謝謝"},{"start":634.991,"end":635.026,"text":"谢谢大家"}]}},{"id":"168691","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168691","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5880b40c5769f1d943f7419cb3c26469f826bc43123a8ddfea45507174d079a780272794d7ccdd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林倩綺","委員發言時間":"10:05:39 - 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委員長副主委您好那麼今天早上我想我們今天是針對你們在組織法這邊有一些組織法的修改來做詢答早上您的報告裡面本席這邊有一個就沒有聽到本席很關注的事情所以本席要針對在去年也就上個會期針對內政委員會"},{"start":50.323,"end":68.477,"text":"有關於附贈航海文化力計畫的一個質詢那當時呢我們管組委有正面回應就是說他希望用一個專案來推動原住民防鼓船的造船技術以及南島文化的國際交流因為貴單位也有在不同的船體方面呢其實有一些計畫在進行"},{"start":69.318,"end":95.479,"text":"那本席今天要進一步確認的是你們目前的具體進度跟規劃的期程那麼依據你們在前年應該去年針對前年的這個航海文化曆計畫的成本效益分析那麼政府要跟民間既有的手工造船跟這個航海文化附贈的能量透過對話的機制跟使用的調度平台來提升船隻使用效度跟整體推廣的效益"},{"start":96.239,"end":110.97,"text":"本席跟主委在前年也有參與部落的一些造船文化也有看到部落一個航行的展示那麼這個方向本席是認同的但是在方法上本席針對這個方向要跟你們提出來是它不應該只是一個補助的活動"},{"start":115.473,"end":130.912,"text":"應該像主委這樣講的系統化整合跟平台化治理來用專案來做處理喔那麼本期要請教的是這樣的整合呢目前有沒有延伸到原住民越洋仿古造船記憶還是只有停留在部落的一個零散的計畫那"},{"start":132.533,"end":159.147,"text":"其實那個主委這邊有跟本席做個建議就是說在造船技術的這個部分其實是可以也請經濟部這邊比較專業的這個團體專業的這個單位來一起做輔助跟推動所以第一個部分本席要確定的是那麼海委會在這個年度是不是已經正式將原住民族的仿古造船技術跟藝術納入附贈航海文化計畫的一個核心推動項目"},{"start":159.927,"end":175.724,"text":"那第二個部分是關於調度協調的平台本席很關心的是未來是不是會將原住民族越洋仿古船來納入管理跟運用的體系讓這些船隻不是只有展示或儀式的用途那對漢人來講好像是展示用途"},{"start":176.65,"end":204.688,"text":"可是對原住民來講它其實是一種生活文化更何況在現在我們作為這個海洋的這個民族那應該作為一個主體來推動整個造船技術的一個延續跟真正航海的一個南島的話語權所以是不是應該有實際的跟教育的這個推廣跟國際實際的一個航行然後第三個部分是最關鍵的也就是國際航行跟文化交流的這個部分海委會有沒有一個具體的"},{"start":205.809,"end":231.417,"text":"規劃的騎乘 攀點可行的南島文化航線那麼規劃在試航或示範性的航行計畫這個都是我們未來跟太平洋島國或友邦在這裡面接觸的一個基礎更何況今年其實去年 帛琉已經來過一艘船已經引起轟動那今年你們做的事情呢就是人家來了再拉到你們海委會所在的地方但事實上航行在原住民的這個區塊你們到底是怎麼樣來做的"},{"start":232.637,"end":262.317,"text":"那最重要的是我們的船什麼時候可以航行南島我們的仿古船我們的原住民族的南島語族的船什麼時候可以從台灣航行出去因為你們一直說台灣是南島語族的發源地但是現在我們的主體地位已經被其他的國家開始用航行快要取代了請問海委會的成立跟你們未來希望有多一位主委的這樣一個組織的這個改造"},{"start":262.857,"end":282.031,"text":"那請問你們在這裡面在這件事情上是怎麼進行的實際的期程跟投入的一個規劃方向跟委員報告我這邊要特別跟委員報告我們管主也曾經擔任過文化局長所以他對文化文物包括歷史建築你知道本席也擔任過文化局長吧我知道"},{"start":282.791,"end":309.129,"text":"所以我想委員清楚管主委對於文化保存他是非常非常的重視的重點不是只有保存本人本席基本上也是個選手所以我們不能只是你們不要用漢人的觀點一直看我們來做展示所以我的重點是他是我們文化很重要的一個主體我們不是讓這個文化死在博物館裡面所以我們會從那個這個"},{"start":312.851,"end":337.216,"text":"也鼓勵我們各個部會啦不是只有海委會自己在做不是我們自己在做我們也包括我們是海委會耶你們的成立對台灣的整個海洋各類的事務是應該有一個主導的地位是所以我們海委會本來就有一個海洋委員會本席重要的在本席的幾個問題是請問你們有沒有把它放進核心的一個推動計畫裡面第二個七成"},{"start":339.144,"end":361.913,"text":"我們在一個航海復興文化裡面我們編列了從113到116他是有編列一個預算三億六千六百萬元你們打算怎麼做我們補助學校跟民間團體等這些計畫然後來這個規劃然後傳承發揚航海文化跟擴大海洋文化你們什麼時候要造出這個南島的防護船"},{"start":365.321,"end":382.728,"text":"這個很抱歉跟委員報告我可不容許我會後再跟委員報告最好是很清楚的給我期程跟你們目前在進行的方向然後切記不要只是一直補助而沒有海委會自己規劃跟執行的一個主體是好嗎是"},{"start":384.551,"end":402.803,"text":"這件事情就被人揮霍嗎那本席你是不是可以承諾本席要很清楚的啟程可以那第二部分本席很快的就針對這個海巡人員的這個退休來做一個詢答那不過剛才本席這邊要講的是對不起我這邊處理一下"},{"start":407.11,"end":433.877,"text":"好 那本席這邊要對這個海巡人員的權益跟警察人事條例的這個執行的一個爭議來做一個跟您做一個詢答那我們剛才前面講的是海洋文化的政策推動那接下來是人員的保障你要讓大家安定那我們在整個事務的推動才會比較平順所以行政院來暫緩呢執行所引發的對這個退休海巡人員的影響行政院因為執行暫緩目前有的這個爭議"},{"start":437.018,"end":459.515,"text":"影響了我們退休海巡的人員那目前行政院的說法說考量憲政爭議已經申請釋憲但是在半年內呢會提出整體修正的方案但是另外一方面呢退休海巡的這個團體仍然有一些意見那認為法律已經三讀通過還沒有落實會影響制度的一個信賴所以本席這邊有三個重點要跟您這邊來做個討論"},{"start":460.876,"end":486.044,"text":"海巡人員也是這樣一個體系所以海委會對於退休保障調整的基本立場是如何那有沒有支持在合理的範圍內提升退休保障要讓第一線的人員有明確的一個預期第二個部分是行政院暫緩執行三讀通過的法律這段期間海委會有沒有評估對海巡人員的士氣及流財還有未來招募的影響是如何"},{"start":486.624,"end":511.449,"text":"第三面對目前草野的僵局那主委是不是應該協助行政院來盡快跟立法院來進行實質的一個協調跟推動提出針對你們會內的一個可行的方案那本席不想看到退休的權益長期懸而未決那本席在這邊呼籲可不可以以海巡弟兄的退休生活為念然後來做積極的爭取那副主委您的看法"},{"start":512.899,"end":531.705,"text":"這邊跟委員報告我們的立場跟行政的立場是一致的昨天院長在立法院議員會裡面有特別承諾在六個月內會提出妥適的相關的規劃來配合來執行我想在行政的立場上面他一定會用最好的方式來照顧我們所有不管是任何身分別的退休人員的生活"},{"start":532.967,"end":544.515,"text":"好 那本席這邊要提醒也就是說剛才本席這邊提到你們沒有評估那這樣子的一個延宕對海巡弟兄士氣的影響跟未來招募你們會不會碰到一些什麼困難你們研析過嗎跟委員報告"},{"start":547.978,"end":574.899,"text":"因為這個是配合整個國家的政策跟行政院的政策啦所以我們還是配合行政院他一定有一個整體的規劃然後我們要落實來執行但是要特別跟委員說明因為各個身份別的人事條例的適用是各用各的身份的別來使用啦所以他們的退休權利跟相關保障他或許有一部分的小小的差異但是我想在行政院政策整體政策的規劃下面應該是不會"},{"start":575.881,"end":580.401,"text":"不會讓這些同仁這些退休人員的權益會受到損害"},{"start":581.284,"end":608.851,"text":"所以本席在這邊呼籲這樣子的穩定是長期要對第一線人員付出的一個承諾啦那在野黨始終以退休人員的生活穩定為念那也期待行政院可以有誠意的回應那麼立法院及基層的聲音應該要被聽到而且應該有具體的方案那尤其是我們的海巡人員所以請副主委這邊以蒼生為念然後積極的處理跟爭取那六個月的期程不能再延宕好嗎"},{"start":610.312,"end":612.622,"text":"好,我們會配合行政院的相關措施來辦理,謝謝委員好,謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168707","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168707","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5880b40c5769f19be3c342dc0243df10d96ca025fdcb7cdfea45507174d079c01daae652d257f65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"何欣純","委員發言時間":"10:32:26 - 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謝謝 見好招委那我們是不是請數位發展部林部長好 請林部長"},{"start":15.74,"end":42.752,"text":"部長好我想我還是比較關心民生議題那這個詐騙這個打詐國家隊大家都是對數位發展部期待非常深希望能夠呢數位發展部用專業用你們跟平台的溝通用很多很多的方式要深入民心讓大家有感覺得國家打詐隊是有效的但是呢我今天要問的是讓大家覺得"},{"start":44.093,"end":47.896,"text":"我去年6月有質詢TRADE的廣告之前沒有納管當然我也很高興我們政府數位發展部也從善如流我6月質詢 9月就納管"},{"start":62.389,"end":89.183,"text":"因為那時候大家對Trade開始可以除了發文發圖發照片之外那個詐騙量越來越多所以我們要求的這Trade的廣告要納管要落實身份驗證就是實物制廣告的投放的揭露詐騙內容一定要儘速的下架就納入在我們這個網路平台的這樣子一樣的一個規範裡面但是來下一頁我們發現"},{"start":91.984,"end":113.351,"text":"廣告審查重演之後這個炸團反而又更厲害了現在轉換手法這個不僅僅是媒體也有報導過有很多的店家他自己開始發文發文什麼因為他們的名稱他們店家的商品"},{"start":114.782,"end":127.233,"text":"資訊等等被冒用了所以為什麼這個是最上面的詐騙型手段第一個透過廣告投放實名制他們沒有辦法通過認證之後所以他開始利用什麼熱門的關鍵制"},{"start":130.295,"end":148.943,"text":"熱門的關鍵字包括商品可能是電玩日用品現在最夯的是什麼化妝品之類的他開始利用這個關鍵字假冒真實店家的名號大量的投放複製這個相關的內容文章取得演算法的關鍵字推薦"},{"start":150.492,"end":168.334,"text":"那很多民眾不曉得所以可能就會下單下單之後呢就是誘騙民眾私訊那取得個資或者販賣假貨那這個就是現在Trade上面廣告沒有辦法了那就換什麼換冒用真實店家"},{"start":169.395,"end":186.628,"text":"冒名 偷文 又騙民眾的個資跟榨取財物這個是現在新的手法 而且非常大量 下一頁你看喔 我們從這個粹上面看到許許多多的店家的無奈的澄清文"},{"start":187.628,"end":212.614,"text":"而且這些文章是大量的被傳播那不僅僅是民眾的財務被榨取店家的名譽也受損我的服務處也有很多人來陳情那很多人打電話來跟我說怎麼他訂的貨他沒收到或是他訂的貨呢是一個劣質品來要求他店家要賠償那還跑來服務處問說那我們需要法律諮詢那我們該怎麼辦"},{"start":213.894,"end":240.033,"text":"好 那這實質上面該怎麼辦那第一個報警 該由警政署來辦第二個 平台的下架的速度慢傷害一直造成這個新聞也已經很多次報導過那很多有的這個社群的這個因為他這樣子的一個文章被冒名擴散影響到他店家的生意甚至讓他坐不下去會倒店所以那最上面的詐騙問題到現在有增無減"},{"start":243.796,"end":261.848,"text":"這個部分其實我就是要來跟我們部長來請教一下在下一頁尤其警政署也提過事情這TRADE的詐騙量顯著的增加而且依法我們現在依法是要儘速下架因為如果越快下架的話第一個可以"},{"start":263.028,"end":280.499,"text":"確保民眾被詐騙財務的風險降低第二個店家被冒名的這個頻率或者是他受到的損失可以降低這個問題是在於我們到底能不能第一個下架的速度快可不可以"},{"start":281.657,"end":299.47,"text":"是 跟委員報告 處理Thread這種詐騙基本上我們可以從三方面來著手第一個就是加快通報的速度我們在這邊要呼籲就是說民眾如果遇到有這種可疑的訊息在Thread上面有可疑訊息的話請下載使用網站通報查詢網把這個事情通報上來"},{"start":302.652,"end":325.001,"text":"那同胞上來就是第一個部分然後第二個我們要加快那個確認這個是不是假店家的這個速度那因為我們以前比較沒有處理這種店家你們現在如果要確定這個下架之前的程序大概要多久的時間我們如果是找那個譬如說之前公眾人物的話只要公眾人物一確定的話我們大概我們現在平均應該是幾個小時之內我們就幾個小時 五個小時兩個小時之內"},{"start":330.123,"end":354.729,"text":"這是有名的公眾人物兩個小時以內可以下架那請問一下我剛剛講的這個跟委員報告其實這個問題就在於說如果有人仿冒謝金河的話我們就可以去那個聯絡謝金河或者他的那個辦公室的助理啊但是有些這個店家我們也不認識我也不知道他在哪裡所以這個是我們要解決的問題來來來上一頁無奈的店家的無奈的陳清文已經在推上很多了耶知道啦新聞報導也報導很多次了"},{"start":357.43,"end":379.583,"text":"甚至有人呢還會因為這樣子而倒閉咧所以 是的 我那個委員不是這個意思啦我的意思是說我們已經跟那個謝金額或者是張忠謀或者黃仁勳的辦公室我們已經取得了固定的聯絡方式但是這些店家可能都是第一次被人家冒用然後又全台灣有這麼多的店家那我們那個這個事情其實也不是我們抒發那應該那應該這樣講如果說有名的公眾人物你取得"},{"start":385.786,"end":406.178,"text":"溝通管道可以聯絡的管道你可以處理那我們現在針對這麼多店家被冒用被詐騙集團利用那民眾的財務受損店家的名譽受損那我們針對這些無奈只能在網路上勾成親吻的這些店家我們可以提供什麼樣的專線什麼平台可以幫忙"},{"start":409.68,"end":437.461,"text":"當然就是我們要趕快跟這些店家聯絡但是因為這些店家都不像謝金河或張忠謀那麼有名所以我現在就是要跟委員解釋就是說我們會朝這個方向去努力我們想辦法利用其他的機制去跟他確認譬如這個可能需要經濟部或者是內政部就是警政單位的協助我們總是要做確認否則的話有人萬一那個謊報不是 再上一頁"},{"start":438.402,"end":446.589,"text":"部長我之所以為什麼要確認我們能不能提供一個管道或平台讓這些受害的店家可以找得到"},{"start":447.692,"end":471.923,"text":"解決或者是找得到政府的支持 你要知道像這些詐騙的假網拍 居罐 轉網 上司 煙彈 竄生 毒品的第二大宗也就是說現在這些店家被冒名 他買賣的商品可能不只是他自己所推銷行銷的商品"},{"start":473.203,"end":491.492,"text":"甚至是透過這些店家因為他們被冒用了所以變成是一個販賣毒品 毒品交易的一個網路下的地下管道那這個是一個很可怕的一件事情很多的家長會擔心是因為"},{"start":492.552,"end":512.306,"text":"用這樣的管道這些毒品的取得非常的隱密而且快速跟方便這個是對我們整個社會來講大家是不能容許的也是希望政府要拿出魄力能夠積極因應所以我才會說也許你剛剛講不是只有數位發展部的責任"},{"start":513.607,"end":529.944,"text":"那我要求的是數位發展部在跟平台溝通下架的速度要快第二個對於這些名譽受損的店家或者是被冒名的店家或者是因為這些管道變成是毒品的一個這個"},{"start":531.445,"end":553.84,"text":"交易流通的一個線下的管道要跟我們警政署好好的來合作嘛不是嗎那你除了警政單位除了你數位發展部那我們平台這些要求他競速下架的一個時效性不能說有名的公眾人物我可以要求兩個小時以內下架那這些店家"},{"start":554.58,"end":580.532,"text":"再次跟委員解釋一下 這個處理分成三段 第一個是通報第二個是確認 第三部分是通知那個平台下架我們政府是不是要有一個機制來呼籲大家說你們被騙了或是被冒用了是不是可以有一個通報的機制是 這個就是我們的網照通報查詢網就是我剛才講的就是網照通報查詢網就只有那個查詢網我們速發部是負責這個 然後如果要用內政部的話那就是用那個165打詐專網"},{"start":583.144,"end":598.366,"text":"那個內政部有他們的服務內政部的那個165基本上他們是必須處理已經成案就是已經有財損的那我們速發部這邊會處理一些還沒有造成傷害的我們事先處理這是我們網站東報查詢網的目的所以我們要鼓勵民眾多多使用"},{"start":598.746,"end":613.868,"text":"今天警政單位有沒有啦 我不知道啦但是我還是提醒訴法部啦因為這些數據是你們網路的詐騙通報裡面呢 由數字來看近30日的通報數據過去TRADE佔通報比例的28%"},{"start":615.61,"end":639.833,"text":"近7日這是最新的數據近7日來萃佔通報比例已經高達64%那表示這一個新型的網路詐騙的在萃上面這個平台上的案件量是非常急劇的暴增那如何來打擊如何保護我們民眾跟店家的權益我覺得第一個要快第二個"},{"start":640.433,"end":668.779,"text":"你要多久的時間內把這個相關的單位找來把你剛剛說的從通報第一步第二步第三步把這個完整的SOP能夠提供給我們所有受害的店家也好影響的民眾權益也好能夠呢及早的來防範而且讓他們可以知道從哪裡可以得到政府的支持好 那個委員我們那個提出那個說明報告給您好不好好啊 多久"},{"start":670.897,"end":684.36,"text":"兩週內我們提供兩週內你給我書面報告那我書面報告裡面要求你們要把跟相關單位的一個協商或者是開會建立的機制內容細節都要寫清楚說清楚好不好是可以沒問題好謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"168706","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168706","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5880b40c5769f15922b0a1cdd7cd5610d96ca025fdcb7cdfea45507174d079c01daae652d257f65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳素月","委員發言時間":"10:22:42 - 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請主席邀請NCC陳代理主委還有我速發部的林部長好 請陳主委跟林部長委員好"},{"start":14.554,"end":36.434,"text":"主委還有部長 早安今天委員會就是針對電信管理法第36條的徵求條文進行討論我們看到有關電信管理法針對公眾電信網路外資的限制在原本的條文裡面對外國人直接持股的股份總數我們歸電是不得超過49%"},{"start":39.797,"end":67.006,"text":"直接及間接持有的股份總數不得超過百分之六十那同時就是說以股份有限公司為限的話董事長應具有中華民國的國籍那我們今天有看到我們就是召委的版本跟葛如君委員的版本那召委的版本裡面當然就是最後面當然就是說經主管機關核准者就是不受第四項後段及第五項之限制這是他們就是這兩個版本的最終的一個"},{"start":67.966,"end":96.269,"text":"訴求 照我的版本我們看到它是有比較更細緻的一個規範 當然就是說針對這個網路安全或者是國家安全及其他公共利益的這個無補利益影響 有這樣子的一個條件的一個限制不過這兩個版本都是應該最主要的目的就是要放寬這個外國人直接持股的比例 就是外資的這個限制那我現在在 我想要來請教一下 就是"},{"start":97.19,"end":108.821,"text":"以目前我們現在的電信管理法第36條對外資的這個限制的現行條文裡面我們是否讓所有國外的這些低軌衛星的業者確保"},{"start":110.173,"end":137.85,"text":"沒有其實oneweb還有其他SES等中國也好大概都遵行現行的戰略條規定來進來也跟委員報告其實現行的規定其實當初我們加入WTO的時候的跟多方在談的情況之下那是基本當時的一些基本要求其實過往早期電信法的事情海蘭也要求必須要follow這個外資條款外資限制條款其實都不是問題只有他們願意配合的話都不是問題"},{"start":138.76,"end":161.181,"text":"是 就是他們要配合的話 這些都不是問題嘛那 尤其我們目前也已經有這個跟OneWeb就是已經有合作的關係嘛我記得之前在 我們在審預算的時候我記得之前唐鳳部長也有說明過嘛我們目前書法部的就是跟OneWeb的帝國衛星的一個合作部件的狀況大概是怎樣"},{"start":162.342,"end":177.316,"text":"目前情況我們在台灣佈建了770個那個點就是所謂的User Terminal所以OneWeb在台灣運行都是順暢的那當然是受到因為我們的預算被砍的關係所以那個我們實際維域的點會比較少一點190個而已 OK"},{"start":181.079,"end":202.412,"text":"是 所以其實如果說要以國家安全為前提為考量要來放寬這個外資的限制倒不如就是說支持預算嘛讓這個預算通過來支持我們部件更多的這樣子的接收的圓盤嘛 是不是是 請委員多多支持 謝謝是 那"},{"start":203.473,"end":222.11,"text":"所以我們剛剛就是就我們主委跟部長的一個回答我們就可以知道說其實以現行的條文根本不會去影響到我們台灣就是有關這個電信業者跟就是這一些低軌衛星的這些業者的一個合作嘛對不對對實質上是不會影響"},{"start":222.771,"end":237.743,"text":"而且先天設計上可以讓本國業者也有參與本國的衛星發展技術也可以做一些銜接然後國安、治安、打炸大概相對效率上也有一定程度的保障"},{"start":238.661,"end":257.351,"text":"是 好 那我們再來看就是說本席有看到就是說在2023年7月的時候其實就有一則新聞就是這個彭博勝有一個新聞標題報導就是說馬斯克欲全權掌控在台的低軌衛星持股所以不利台灣推動數位潤性"},{"start":259.412,"end":269.556,"text":"所以我們看到今天這樣子的一個增修條文要放寬外資的限定不免讓外界質疑說這樣子條文是不是特定在替這個新唸再解套"},{"start":272.779,"end":293.188,"text":"那個主委跟部長看法如何我們法律條文寫都是一般性的一般都是通案適用所以如果再更好的如果現行條文改的如果超越過往當然是現行都是修正條文當然是沒問題但是現行修正條文會有幾個疑慮大概有兩個"},{"start":294.659,"end":316.271,"text":"情勢變更就是STARLINK SPACE它目前的那個第二代的衛星它可以它沒有要求在每個國家陸地國家設Gateway不設Gateway最大的問題是數據主權的問題就是說它是用邏輯設計上提供資訊給你不管是通電清查不管是你做它一些資料使用的一些追蹤那些都是"},{"start":317.091,"end":335.226,"text":"不是physical layer不是基礎層以上的擁有設計業的話他是從基礎層開始提供給你會實打實的一些掌握對國家安全對通訊對治安會比較掌握但對業者的發展兩個部分對衛星產業的部分如果沒有本國參與的話大概也比較不好"},{"start":335.826,"end":358.898,"text":"那對本國的電信業者 孤網也好 先網也好第二代的Starlink它未來可以取代掉行動通信的可能大增因為它最近取得52項的新的專利這個是當它以後傳這個影音都可以目前它手機之前只能傳簡訊 是相對差但是它第二代的衛星之後 它這些功能"},{"start":360.199,"end":378.101,"text":"突然變得很強這個對未來產業會有影響所以我也要觀察對本國產業的影響所以我們才建議說要多聽相關利害關係人的看法本來想接著問就是放寬公眾電信網路外資持股限制可能產生的影響剛剛主委都有講了"},{"start":378.982,"end":407.6,"text":"所以其實我們也都知道就是說我們從平常的這個媒體報導就可以看得出來這個馬斯克他是極度傾中的而且這些都不是這些都是有事實根據的因為他都屢次公開發表親中的言論向中國市所以我們也覺得說如果未來這樣子的一個親中企業掌握我們台灣的關鍵基礎設施我們就是台灣如果面臨緊急狀況的時候我們的風險是否可以"},{"start":408.26,"end":428.588,"text":"就是說在可控的範圍之內我覺得這是我們擔憂的所以這可能會讓我們國家更陷於這個危險的一個境地那另外我們也看到就是說其實心念它也是成為詐團詐騙的一個使用工具因為這個都是有事實發生的一個記錄因為在緬甸詐騙園區被"},{"start":433.029,"end":451.322,"text":"圍剿之後那他也急速的死灰復燃因為他就是大規模的利用這個星鏈上網那所以我們台灣也有這個詐騙集團用馬斯克的星鏈加深尾技術去盜用這個就是照片這個臉臉的識別所以去進行詐騙所以我覺得說"},{"start":453.623,"end":477.079,"text":"這個信念未來如果進入台灣市場我們要怎樣去監理 如何監理這個都是我們要去很慎重的去考慮的一個地方對 所以我已經講到重點就是說在治安商的一些效率配合度效率如何因為過往在打造上一些國外公司國外數位平台公司的配合度其實曾經是一個很大的挑戰那如果沒有本國業者參與的話這個挑戰"},{"start":478.92,"end":503.492,"text":"的存在的風險是相對比較大的如果有本國參與的話這個風險可以達到一定程度的掌控效率也可能會比較提升所以這才說這都要通盤考量一時關照的對所以我們覺得說這個是否要放寬這個外資的一個限制我覺得真的是一個非常要慎重的一個議題那再來就是說未來我們台灣是否可以發展自己的低軌衛星"},{"start":505.636,"end":531.254,"text":"目前這個TASA都是台灣的NSP後續的國內的原來太空計畫室其實有在發展自己的體系那如果說國內業者假設例如這個STARLINK有國內業者參與我相信這個技術的一些傳承的一些參與可以有利於本國的衛星發展這也是一個"},{"start":531.914,"end":560.302,"text":"要考量的因素那如果對今天外資全部開全部豁免的話那本國要要如何去借機如何學習這一塊的可能性就消失了這個也要考量所以我覺得說為了國家的安全考量我們台灣也應該要積極發展自己的低軌衛星那我想我們台灣的人才基金我想這個部分也有帶我們就是NCC跟速發部去做這個資源的一個整合希望我們未來"},{"start":560.962,"end":563.426,"text":"可以有朝這個方向去發展好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168705","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168705","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5880b40c5769f14a9f92924bf1222110d96ca025fdcb7cdfea45507174d0791143f66db424e4555ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"10:09:17 - 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因為這不是你的全責可是我只想是說再一次點出這個問題想要請教的是到底民進黨政府現在有沒有把國人心心念念放的優先順位先擺出來還是什麼事情都可以推中共打壓NCC提名人士應該不是中共打壓吧也不應該吧"},{"start":177.882,"end":195.681,"text":"來吧我們來討論一下因為今天我覺得這個新鏈的議題防衛韌性或是我們的這個通訊數位韌性非常重要本席也很關注那我們也看到了就是說速發部有相關的意見但速發部的意見我剛剛看了一下那個說明比較像是說還要再做研議"},{"start":196.542,"end":216.239,"text":"沒有絕對支持也沒有絕對反對因為現在主要卡到幾個點嘛第一是說我們國內的36條有規定是說不能超過外資不能超過50%那法定就框住了但一樣的道理看看日本跟韓國我覺得日本韓國是可以做比較的為什麼因為第一離我們近第二產業相對"},{"start":218.689,"end":244.294,"text":"相近還有說實在話他們是我們也是算競爭的夥伴嘛所以人家有往前超前了那我們也應該要迎頭趕上先說台灣的4G 5G的普及率高所以好像星鏈對我們這個市場沒有那麼的重視但我查了一下資料當然這資料可能各國政府他不同的數據判斷那我查了以"},{"start":245.97,"end":264.179,"text":"人手一機的普及率來講手機上網普及率台灣佔87%到90%左右日本佔90%以上韓國更高但95%到98%所以換言之韓國日本其實以人手一機手機上網的普及率其實還比台灣高"},{"start":265.539,"end":283.051,"text":"這是一個數據那另外第二個部分是說我們想要請教到底低軌衛星對於日本也好韓國也好他們現在正在推行那有沒有增加他們防衛性那他們怎麼做能夠避免被詐騙集團濫用利用這有沒有去做了解"},{"start":283.351,"end":310.327,"text":"是有跟委員報告都是幾個重點第一個日本韓國他們可以做到處理其實就是因為他們有一些籌碼上跟對方在做一些折衷你只是說這個訓練對韓國是因為跟美方有簽FTA所以他的外資條款可以豁免可以排除試用那日本的話他是因為斯大林在日本有多位有在當地落地"},{"start":311.007,"end":325.163,"text":"那以目前的情況如果我們信用條款如果直接沒有修改的話其實Starlink願意配合的話都可以做因為既有的已經來落地的OneWeb也好其實都已經這麼做了那以"},{"start":325.964,"end":347.161,"text":"Starlink最近新的第二代的它的Starlink第二代它是可以做那Inter-Satellite Link就是衛星間直接丟那個中間信號的這一塊對未來的產業的發展衝擊是比較可怕為什麼因為最近Starlink取得52項的專利它可以在"},{"start":348.522,"end":364.172,"text":"改變這個Tracking Area Code的這種情況之下他可以以後目前手機支聯Starlink大概只能傳Text都傳文件然後簡訊而已未來他傳影音傳影像大概就相對沒問題是就等於是網速更快對"},{"start":365.293,"end":381.572,"text":"那某種程度的話它可以立刻取代掉所有地面的一些行動業者所以這個對產業的衝擊很大那業主是一個部分一定要有本國業主的角色主委你剛剛沒有聽本席的問題本席問A你答A啦我先說因為我也看到說本"},{"start":382.193,"end":404.435,"text":"你講的我們也都理解就是說他等於是互相競爭嘛本國業者譬如說三家業者他們是要設基地台那如果說今天STARLINK來他不用設基地台那他也一樣的網速的話那可能很多人就會選擇因為他不用基地台他就變成是說他涵蓋面比較廣如果說一些譬如說山區海邊原本他基地台比較少的地方他的收訊比較弱"},{"start":405.256,"end":420.732,"text":"那可能那些民眾他就會被STARLINK吸引走但這都還不是本席的問題因為那個是市場公平競爭的機制但本席看到的是我不要說因為我們放寬了STARLINK進來之後發生說有業者現在宣稱可能"},{"start":422.352,"end":449.242,"text":"詐騙集團可能這些非法的集團他會利用Starlink這樣的衛星然後本國沒有辦法去追蹤所以我現在想問的是日本政府跟韓國政府怎麼樣解決這個問題對就是我剛才還沒來得及跟文回答就第二部分是日本怎麼處理呢因為他街會在日本落地所以他在這個通訊監察就是英文叫lover intersection的部分他可以實質從physical layer就已經掌握了"},{"start":449.842,"end":477.234,"text":"那韓國他也在洽談而且韓國是有本國業者參與所以在這國家安全通信監察治安防護防打炸等等他是有一定的掌握度那如果如果說我們這邊如果在本國參與跟涉基類這兩個部分我們都沒有辦法掌握沒有辦法在台灣實現的話其實這個是相當危險的所以以主管機關的立場當然束發部還沒有表達意見林部長我看你後面一直在微笑"},{"start":478.234,"end":499.167,"text":"代理主委你現在講法就這個也是本期我們認為未來在修法的時候一個很重要的一句真參考如果說你剛剛講這兩個先決條件都沒有辦法做到的話換言之開放STARLINK來台灣會容易就變成是說他內容是什麼通訊是什麼我們沒有辦法有任何地步的掌握有掌握但是就會像"},{"start":500.268,"end":517.767,"text":"譬如說我們過去的一個狀況譬如說社群媒體平台它沒有在台灣設落地那也因此它在社群媒體平台上面的一個詐騙廣告或我們第一時間沒有辦法那當然後續我們因為通過相關法令我們要求社群媒體平台它自律也好或是說他們做相關的規範才有做"},{"start":519.448,"end":541.306,"text":"規範所以變成未來如果說這樣的話有可能是需要依賴企業自律而不是我們政府公權力站在地線是這樣嗎我先講一下重點存外商沒有本國業的參與的話在打仗在治安上的效率速度上大概會存在一個會比較隱密這是第一個另外一個就是剛剛提到的數據主權問題"},{"start":543.307,"end":555.314,"text":"在歐洲國家特別西歐很多外資筆記都完全放掉了可是他還是要求他的要那個STAR LINK要在當地設定位那我們在做相關修法的時候能不能堅持跟要求這一塊"},{"start":555.819,"end":577.666,"text":"其實最簡單 現行的條款都可以達到因為現行條款是制度上 先天上就是國安到位 by design就已經放在那邊了當然如果說我們國家安全需要的話其實可以分階段to B to government to G可以先做只是目前對方比較沒有意願因為to C他自己講說他會覺得是說如果要開放就要全部開放嘛"},{"start":578.626,"end":600.119,"text":"所以說某種程度上這就是永遠都是角力但本席還是強調的是站在我們台灣兩千三百五十萬人的第一主權還有安全以及任性上面我們做一個綜合最有利的選擇好這個部分是未來修法的時候進入到主條我們會再討論但我最後一分鐘我要再請教一下那日本我們現在看到有兩個做法"},{"start":601.32,"end":617.654,"text":"大家媒體也看到第一 日本去年他們政府部門宣布說他們也要不要把權力或說技術全部掌握在STARLINK上所以他們投入了1500億我不知道日幣或是台幣這個幣值我沒有見過但1500億要打造日本的新鏈"},{"start":619.926,"end":636.927,"text":"這個新聞有看到吧所以換言之有可能如果說他們現在投入打造日本的芯鏈的這個技術未來有可能變成是說不會是全球獨家只有芯鏈這個公司那麼的成熟也許日本也有他們的獨家技術我們變成是說有多元管道也可以"},{"start":638.195,"end":662.55,"text":"採用另外第二個是日本他們現在宣布說2027年他們駐外使節管等於是外管先採取使用新鏈尤其是在比較容易發生天災或是比較容易有戰爭的國家他們的駐外管是用新鏈的系統來去做這個通訊避免日本國人在那個國家裡面失去"},{"start":664.731,"end":675.522,"text":"聯繫發生重要事業聯繫那我覺得這東西就可以思考一下這當然可能要跟外交部一起來討論可是如果說連日本他們都已經想到是說我們也許台灣"},{"start":676.431,"end":695.553,"text":"我們本土境內沒辦法但是至少我們的外管尤其像一些我們的友邦是不是能夠那裡的駐外單位他們也可以來使用新鏈這樣的一個通訊技術未來可以跟我們國內的這個暢通管道更無虞因為我們有些友邦的基礎建設真的沒那麼好"},{"start":696.081,"end":718.86,"text":"這可不可以研究一下其實我也能講到重點 剛剛日本舉的例子日本本身也要發展自己的衛星產業所以在台灣如果地基業者有角色的話這一部分台灣的衛星發展才不會說完全被Bypass所以那兩個 另外第二個部分可能就跟外交部也比較相關那束發部長"},{"start":719.963,"end":734.953,"text":"能不能提一下那這樣子本期這樣的一個建議是不是能夠找外交部來討論看看有沒有需要來去做一個更強化至少我們國外的單位回來台灣的這個通訊以及我們在那邊的國人的通訊能夠有一些保障"},{"start":735.58,"end":753.04,"text":"是委員這個提議非常好那我們會跟外交部那邊去做建議不過這個事情因為第一個是外交這個牽涉到那個機密的事情可能就是說數八部沒辦法直接去做必須由外交部去做另外一個是說因為如果在一個那個譬如說是"},{"start":754.802,"end":773.316,"text":"非洲的哪一個國家 那那個必須當 接受當地法律的規定這個就不是我們 那個NCC跟蘇澳盟 參考一下日本的因為日本現在已經做了 他們宣布2027年 他們全球的駐外使節單位都會用衛星通訊來跟他們國內保持原本就已經有的通訊 他們維持"},{"start":774.417,"end":788.199,"text":"但是他們多增加新鏈這樣的技術來確保真的發生天災或是戰亂的時候他們的國人還是可以跟日本政府來做取得聯繫好不好 我們參考一下是 謝謝委員的提醒跟支持 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168704","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168704","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5880b40c5769f1cbb988bc0f907da22f15b2e00a8b249bdfea45507174d0792fac930a77093c4f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"10:32:47 - 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end":146.387,"text":"是這樣嗎?如果修憲沒有過的案子是不是代表的就在國民意志上被否決或推翻呢?好像也沒辦法這樣說只是說未達到修憲的門檻以至於不能完成修憲但不意味著是透過這樣的修憲過程當中否決了18歲公民權它的一個實然上可以爭取的空間所以我是覺得呢首先先認定"},{"start":147.188,"end":164.849,"text":"修憲不成不代表國民反對這個意見這一點恐怕是要先確定的但是在這個同時我們也發現了一些有趣的地方譬如說青年基本法立法院在去年青年基本法當中呢就把條文明明白白的寫進去18歲政府要保障青年的參政權"},{"start":166.01,"end":190.421,"text":"糟糕了 青年基本法它不是一個強制性的法律它有宣示性的效果 這樣叫基本法嘛但是這個基本法可以去含涉要求選罷法做相對應的修改嗎恐怕中選委也好 內政部也好 他們也沒有辦法從政得出的結論而且我看今天的多數意見還是表達說並沒有對於18歲可不可以有公民"},{"start":191.201,"end":201.948,"text":"可以有選舉權有做出可否的意見表示但是都提到憲法現行的規定似乎限制了我們行政機關在對賦予18歲公民選舉權做一個積極的表態所以呢我們就不禁要問了如果從法理上來講那麼"},{"start":211.044,"end":227.721,"text":"國會的意識已經明白的表示青年基本法政府應該保障18歲青年的參政權那憲法又還沒有辦法修憲通過那到底其他的法律可不可以改我們可以從一些各些國家的經驗來思考比如說"},{"start":228.862,"end":233.626,"text":"在民法那時候從20歲還沒有下車到18歲之前也發生過類似的問題譬如說我那時候就曾經為了這個探討成年的定義我說如果按照我們的攤商管理辦法你要滿20歲成年才可以去跟地方政府申請在市場擺攤但是如果你沒有申請在擺攤警察會不會來取締"},{"start":250.399,"end":256.328,"text":"但是你知道嗎 來取締的警察 他要執行公權力18歲考入 如果當年警校是兩年的時候他有可能20歲不到 他就來當警察他就來取締你這個沒有辦法取得攤商證照的年輕人"},{"start":265.481,"end":286.228,"text":"一個未滿20歲的警察來取締一個未滿20歲沒有辦法取得攤商證照這個事情不是很荒謬嗎所以我們要一般上去思考譬如說飲酒的年齡譬如說考駕照的年齡那這些都在很多民主國家在思考的時候似乎都會先抓一條線就是成年這個是一個基準線"},{"start":287.168,"end":311.087,"text":"什麼年齡我們可以往上調譬如說在有些國家成年人不能抽菸你要超過成年的年齡一定年齡後他認為延緩你受到菸毒強害的時間所以不見得成年就代表什麼事都可以做而這個基準線這個基準線那裡之後我們要討論哪些行為必須超過這個基準線才能賦予哪些低於這個基準線才可以賦予所以有些國家沒有成年人16歲就可以考駕照"},{"start":312.248,"end":333.44,"text":"所以因此我們在思考成年這個定義的時候它會不會是一個基準線如果我們國家對於成年的基準線已經拉到18歲那我們可以好好來的探討18歲除了成年同時有哪些事情他還不能做要延後有哪些事情他可以提早做還有哪些事情他同時可以做但是如果我們立法院有這樣的討論之後那怎麼辦呢"},{"start":334.588,"end":338.595,"text":"如果會不會發生 像新年基本法我們也通過了我們陸續修了選罷法結果我們就規定滿18歲可以有選舉權那這問題掉到誰那裡?憲法法庭嘛"},{"start":347.236,"end":372.026,"text":"所以到底我們的修法有沒有辦法去追溯原憲法立憲者的原意這有很多討論剛剛姚老師也提到了原來的這個被選舉權23歲依憲法附法律令規定之外年滿23歲有被選舉權因為憲法本身就有提到總統要實施才能被選舉所以他有這樣的一個規定所以當這樣的一個情況我們來自己局限的時候是不是我們可以大人的說那好"},{"start":372.566,"end":398.684,"text":"那現在我們也沒辦法去推究立憲者的原因我們憲法修憲也沒辦法得到全民達到門檻的共識那如果我們透過立法的手段像立青年基本法這樣立了之後那麼如果有人對於說這個有抵觸憲法之餘請大法官憲法法庭來審理那最後因為憲法法庭的決定就恃同有修憲的效力那這是不是一條另外一條路呢公聽會不見得有答案但是公聽會可以提出問題請提出這個問題的方向我們共同來思考 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"168703","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168703","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5880b40c5769f1761190bb752715e863812774c6aab6afdfea45507174d079252e743352ce73015ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"呂玉玲","委員發言時間":"10:29:05 - 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請工部長林委員好"},{"start":23.237,"end":30.167,"text":"部長過去大陸透過了貿易壁壘的調查以及檢驗我們的產品為由對我們壓迫了農產品跟工商產品的出口近期內我們看到大陸"},{"start":39.56,"end":44.183,"text":"提出了這個十項會台的措施希望能夠重新的釋出這個善意那前天我們全國商總特別也為了此事開了這個記者會呼籲政府能夠以產業的發展跟人民的福祉為本正面的來回應大陸但是我們經濟部卻是擺出了非常強硬的態度認為我們台灣"},{"start":64.697,"end":73.429,"text":"經濟已經走出自己的路了照這樣子的看法部長是不是你們就認為說台灣是有本錢完全能夠放棄中國大陸這個貿易的關係不是我們沒有要放棄跟中國的經貿關係"},{"start":81.259,"end":86.14,"text":"是分散這個多元市場的開發因為大陸是我們出口的第二大的國家佔了我們26.64%所以我們在這種情形之下當然剛剛部長都提到了我們還要做的就是要分散風險但是產業的新生也請你們要去聽產業希望"},{"start":107.245,"end":134.13,"text":"他是希望你們能夠永續健康的來讓我們的貿易關係啊可以尋求一個可行的方式這很重要吧所以你這樣來繞去也擺脫不了這個關係啊畢竟是第二大出口國家所以我們不是說刻意的要跟他斷絕關係沒有這樣的意思是說我們要多一點市場的開發比如說像我們之前對美談判的時候我們也希望就是說廠商可以開發歐洲市場"},{"start":134.73,"end":138.031,"text":"所以我們也希望你們也可以回應我們產業的心聲啦重視一下正式產業的心聲好不好來輔導他們可以走上國際更好的競爭力好不好那剛剛提到說我們要分散風險跟拓展多元的這個佈局要協助我們產業走出這個一些可以獨立在有新的這個立基點"},{"start":158.598,"end":177.448,"text":"所以我們政府是最關鍵目前要準備的課題那尤其是在2024年的時候我們經濟部有提出境外觀內的觀念在2024年的年底的時候在捷克就成立了台灣的貿易投資中心的正式的接牌這個境外觀內現在就是有四個國家了對不對境外觀內對 境外的這個服務中心那最近 這今年有沒有在要在其他國家要提出"},{"start":185.892,"end":202.821,"text":"這個台灣貿易中心投資的貿易中心美國應該會增加美國會增加喔因為美國這麼大就是我們廠商去那邊有投資我們要就近服務啦那個聚落慢慢形成了我們就會在那邊成立一個服務中心來服務我們的台商所以除了美國還有哪裡"},{"start":204.835,"end":216.864,"text":"原來就是波蘭嘛然後還有捷克嘛 歐洲就是波蘭 捷克第一個就成立啦 捷克也會再增加嗎沒有就是捷克一個嘛 已經有四個啦 我說會再增加就是美國一個嗎美國會再增加 其他的地方呢"},{"start":222.066,"end":225.968,"text":"目前是目前是美國會再增加一個就這樣子目前而已我們希望能夠多一點海外的投資服務的中心給他們一站式的服務輔導他們在國際上的競爭能夠有利基點那尤其是這個境外關內在"},{"start":241.155,"end":263.273,"text":"之前郭志輝部長的時候他就提到了而且他有提到說就是菲律賓我們要投資到產業園區那這個事情的話在當年的時候就已經很多的準備工作都到了最後的評估那今年二月的時候我們經濟部還有說會繼續推動但據我的了解部內的人來說可能暫緩了請問是什麼原因"},{"start":265.655,"end":275.843,"text":"沒有現在是我們上次主要是工種還蠻有興趣的那我們就是跟工種有去一趟菲律賓來考察那在菲律賓會繼續推動嗎會"},{"start":278.931,"end":295.288,"text":"會 這個也有可能會跟美國那為什麼部內的人說暫緩了不推動了我們跟美國也會共同的來合作那你們內部人不動作也不做了那你部長在這邊說要做那是不是內部要先監討一下多元市場的開拓我們都可以所以部長要去了解你們內部人告訴我已經暫緩不做了"},{"start":296.636,"end":325.25,"text":"你要去瞭解喔 不然你這邊一頭熱在做 你內部人都停擺不住對 我來瞭解一下 應該還是會持續因為最重要是這個境內 這個我們的境外官內的工作可能這個名字是不是叫境內官外 怕誤解 但是好 都是會是用境外官內啦到了您的廣播長要換一個名字 我們也不介意啦反正他的實質作為就是我們在海外共同的要換名字而已啦 是不是"},{"start":326.468,"end":338.036,"text":"有這麼重要一定要換名字嗎不是就是海外開拓這個產業園區這個部分是一定會去做的是繼續做名稱換過而已啦對您的意思到你就要換一下名稱啦好"},{"start":340.58,"end":362.209,"text":"重要業務要去繼續的推展在4月20號的時候美國他用呂宋島他們就要成立一個那個產業園區你知道嗎我知道他4月20號有公布所以我們希望我們趕快的我們要繼續推動因為我們希望說這個在菲律賓設立這個產業園區的話可以讓我們強化跟美國跟東協國家的經濟連結這是很重要的是不是很關鍵的所以要繼續推動"},{"start":370.353,"end":374.753,"text":"好不好那接下來就是我們要提到的因為"},{"start":376.124,"end":401.052,"text":"中國大陸要報復美國的這個高關稅的所以宣布12月這個稀土要管制出口後來說要延一年的時間要延長一年的時間那延長一年時間但是我們知道這個稀土是我們無人間很重要的這個材料而且也是我們在軍事跟我們民生領域上運用非常多的所以這稀土很重要我們應該要有一個機制就像儲備的機制"},{"start":405.653,"end":424.463,"text":"讓我們的稀土能夠不要斷炊不要沒有這個稀土那我們溫能機的整個工業會會受到很大很大的影響是不是是所以我們現在已經請供應院因為他這個公斤級的這個產線大概已經有試煉過已經成功對那我們現在要把他這個產能可以擴大擴大所以好"},{"start":426.764,"end":445.659,"text":"所以說目前我們每年需要的稀土量是1500公斤嘛工研院研究說現在他用稀土回收的方式稀土回收是一部分一部分而已對一部分其他還是要用原礦進來是所以因為這個稀土需要高純度的提煉出來這個稀土所以這個"},{"start":447.52,"end":459.929,"text":"如果技術方面的話還要請工研院盡量的科技上可以再提升一點但是在去年10月的時候部長你這邊有表示說2030年之前可以讓我們稀土的自給率可以達到30%在今年的2月喔你又提說在2029年這個國內的稀土自給率可以達到50%部長請問一下"},{"start":474.619,"end":496.905,"text":"經過三四個月你就可以從30%提升到50%那你說這不是工研院的技術提升那是什麼原因沒有 這個就是我們就是把目標提高了啦目標提高 做得到嗎 要得到嗎因為工研院跟我們承諾說可以工研院承諾 對那工研院請出來一下是技術提升了嗎沒有 它主要是產能的擴大產能 它產能在哪裡來呢"},{"start":502.925,"end":524.316,"text":"產能不是不是你只要有原料進來因為我們這個原料工廠限制完成我們大部分的九成的稀土都在大陸進來對不對那現在未來我們會從美國是不是礦源的部分可以多元從美國加拿大澳洲未來是在美國對不對美國有澳洲也有可能加拿大也有多元的國家會進來"},{"start":525.496,"end":539.084,"text":"您知不知道稀土有很多種的稀土那無人機的稀土也不一樣喔美國雖然說有很多種的稀土的項目但是我們要的是無人機的那美國會供應嗎美國它自己的量夠嗎原來它是一個原礦嘛原礦我們做的是精煉的部分那這個精煉你原礦進來供應就可以提煉出來嗎"},{"start":551.391,"end":552.772,"text":"請問工研院一下你技術到了"},{"start":557.318,"end":569.024,"text":"部長剛剛很有信心說你們的產能可以提高到50%我跟委員報告一下現在目前的目標我們現在目前的這個實驗線是年產5噸5000公斤那現在是經濟部要support我們在2028年會完成年產量500噸稀土的那個市產線那會繼續開發那個製程技術到了2030年會完成年產量500噸的工廠"},{"start":584.392,"end":604.787,"text":"那連材料500噸的稀土可以做成1500噸的磁鐵跟委員報告一下那現在主要是我們技術師的提供機會讓工業研發的那主要三個兩個主要元素都是為了磁鐵其中一個是那個Neonidium另外一個是Disposium主要是這兩個啦這兩個是做磁鐵用的謝謝"},{"start":606.128,"end":616.08,"text":"所以部長 所以我們應該趕快的把這個儲備的制度建立起來 才能夠去應應這個迅速萬變的這個國際情勢 好不好 好 謝謝好 謝謝如玲委員"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}