{"error":false,"id":["148963"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":148963,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148963","日期":"2023-12-11","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"聯席會議-10-8-35,19-1","會議代碼:str":"第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議","屆":10,"會期":8,"會次":1,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"聯席會議","委員會代碼":[35,19],"委員會代碼:str":["外交及國防委員會","經濟委員會"],"標題":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2023-12-11T11:47:12+08:00","結束時間":"2023-12-11T11:59:19+08:00","影片長度":"00:12:07","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0ee4ec253a72029edd171281dd6162792351fad24fff329c986728e607a032267be5a84947bdd715ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡適應","委員發言時間":"11:47:12 - 11:59:19","會議時間":"2023-12-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、邀請國防部部長報告「兵役延長配套與整備現況及國防學士班與國軍現行各人才招募管道精進作為」，併請內政部、教育部、勞動部列席，並備質詢。\n二、審查本院國民黨黨團擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查本院委員邱志偉等22人擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條及第十九條條文修正草案」案。）","gazette":{"lineno":862,"blocks":[["蔡委員適應：（11時47分）謝謝主席。能不能請部長就備詢台？"],["主席：邱部長請。"],["邱部長國正：蔡委員好。"],["蔡委員適應：部長，我想請問一下，您曉不曉得高檢署在11月22日起訴了一個共諜案？"],["邱部長國正：我知道。"],["蔡委員適應：你知道總共幾位被起訴嗎？"],["邱部長國正：現役的有七個。"],["蔡委員適應：我覺得滿嚴重的！"],["邱部長國正：是滿嚴重的。"],["蔡委員適應：我唸一下這幾位的名字，陳裕炘、蕭翔云、謝秉成、謝孟書、何信儒、洪睿洋、康奕彬……等，都在陸軍相關單位。"],["邱部長國正：我剛剛也有講過，有退役也有現役，現役有7位……"],["蔡委員適應：我為什麼這樣講？因為這是最近這兩年所發生的狀況，我先請問部長，這個案子是誰發現的？"],["邱部長國正：我們的官兵發覺有異後就報告，然後就起案、往下追所追出來的。"],["蔡委員適應：什麼時候立案？"],["邱部長國正：立案……"],["陳局長育琳：5月份。我們今年5月掌握到不法事證就起案了。"],["蔡委員適應：你們有移給國安局嗎？還是調查局？"],["陳局長育琳：是，檢調共辦。"],["蔡委員適應：我問過調查局，他們說是他們起案，不是你們起案的！"],["陳局長育琳：我們有接獲檢舉，國安單位也有接獲檢舉。"],["蔡委員適應：我的瞭解好像……部長，你要確認一下！我瞭解的好像是檢調先瞭解這個案子後，才回過來通知國防部相關單位！"],["邱部長國正：不是！一開頭我們知道這些訊息以後，有提供，我們也有查，而且還擴大！擴大以後就帶出一些問題來！我們沒有要搶哪個先後……"],["蔡委員適應：我覺得這點很重要！部長，你沒有要搶先後，可是就我國會議員的立場來看，我覺得這件事情很嚴重！"],["邱部長國正：是很嚴重啊！我們也……"],["蔡委員適應：我所謂的很嚴重是，第一，軍中有保防系統，但他不是一個人，這是像肉粽一樣一整串的共諜案。如果不是軍中保防先發現，而是由法務部調查局桃園市調查處跟國安工作站先發現的話，那我覺得這問題很嚴重！"],["邱部長國正：哪個先發覺的？我請保防安全處處長來報告。"],["簡處長熒宏：向委員報告，在110年時國安單位接獲通報，有檢舉人檢獲另外一條線索，本部在110年也有相關一條線索，我們報請國安局統合之後發現，這兩個案的線索有關聯性，所以一起合併辦理共同偵辦。以上。"],["蔡委員適應：這是你的說明，但是我理解到的跟你說的完全顛倒。","部長，我講此事是希望部長去瞭解一下。"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，不管哪一個先發覺，但我們在追……事實……"],["蔡委員適應：當然事後需要追，我要講的意思是，這件案子裡面，其中幾個比較嚴重的，部長，內容你都看過沒有？"],["邱部長國正：我概略知道，我沒有逐條看，但是他們把檢方的起訴書……"],["蔡委員適應：部長可以詳細看一下檢方起訴書的內容，裡面有提到什麼事情……"],["邱部長國正：他們有跟我講，是。"],["蔡委員適應：提到化學兵的少校把化學兵的相關編制表送給中國，其中有一位謝孟書還跟中國講好了，要駕駛CH-47逃到中國去，中間還到泰國去跟他們談過相關的事情，然後還發虛擬貨幣給他；還有一個何信儒，花防部的少校作戰官，把花東防衛的固安計畫傳給中國；還有一個洪睿洋104旅的，把陸軍司令部的訓練計畫等等送到中國去；還有一個叫康奕彬的，金防部守衛大隊的情報官，把金門作戰計畫的相關資料送入中國，這些資料在起訴書中寫得非常清楚，然後有些都是你們核定的極機密，120年以後才能夠解密的，這真的是軍中很嚴重的一個醜聞案，因為涉及這麼多人，不是只有一個耶！透過一個退役軍官陳裕炘就可以聯絡到這麼多人，有化學兵科的、有航特部的、花防部的、金防部的、裝甲旅的，還有臺南守備隊。","部長，我覺得此事不是大概看過知道內容就好了，我覺得要嚴查這件事情，真的是要嚴查這件事情。起訴書裡面寫得非常多，看完之後我真的是驚心動魄，寫小說都沒有那麼會寫啊！所以我為什麼第一個問題先問部長，這個案子是誰發覺的？如果今天國防部在這個事情是第二個後面才知道的，而是檢調，法務部調查局跟國安工作站先瞭解的話，那我們應該要去瞭解軍中建立的保防體系為什麼會這樣？一個中校分隊長已經跟人家談到什麼時候要駕駛直升機過去了，部隊裡面有沒有人知道這件事情？有沒有人知道這件事情？國防部有第一時間先把位置換掉，然後移請調查嗎？還是檢調直接衝到營區裡面去抓人，把人帶走了，我們才知道原來這個人有涉案？或者是說金防部的，或者是我們那個花防部的把資料都送出去，而且用什麼，用Telegram的軟體送出去，我們軍中保防不是強調手機都必須要做管制嗎？","部長，這些事情我們以前都談過，為什麼他會用了這些東西，還有在使用虛擬貨幣？然後有規定營區不能帶其他非相關的手機，都要保存起來嘛，這裡面寫得很清楚啊！對岸中國的相關人員還把特別的手機交給這些人，讓他們用這些特別的手機來翻拍，然後裡面還寫到什麼？還寫到我們裡面有很多相關保管資料的軍官，沒有注意資料就外洩出去了，我不曉得是真的沒有注意還是故意沒有注意？我就問部長一件事情，你說你有瞭解，來，你們這個案子到目前為止，你們調查之後有多少極機密的案件需要重新修正？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，我們當初偵查以後一有這種狀況，我們第一個移送法辦以外，先做一個職務調整，該要撤的就撤了……"],["蔡委員適應：這些人是被調查以後才法辦，還是之前就先……"],["邱部長國正：沒有，我們發覺以後一方面送辦，再一方面我們行政就開始處理了。"],["蔡委員適應：好，部長你這樣講，我想請教你一個問題，那個謝孟書是被檢調逮捕之後才調整單位，還是之前就調整單位？"],["邱部長國正：先調整吧？先調整，通常都還是先調整。"],["蔡委員適應：好，第二個，何信儒呢？"],["邱部長國正：要一個一個講啊？你們知不知道？"],["蔡委員適應：我就問啊！是先調整單位，還是已經直接被逮捕了之後才調整單位？知不知道？"],["邱部長國正：先調整了嗎？就你們是不是要叫……"],["蔡委員適應：何信儒，花防部少校作戰官。"],["陳參謀長建義：跟委員報告，在獲悉保防安全他們相關的報告之後，我們是先不可以有任何的動作，因為整個已經進入檢調的階段，但是這……"],["蔡委員適應：所以你的意思是說，你們已經知道他有問題，但是你們沒有動他的職務就對了？你的意思是這樣子？"],["陳參謀長建義：我們事先掌握，對，那……"],["蔡委員適應：好，那為什麼剛才講航特部那個就說先調職，這又邏輯不通了嘛！"],["邱部長國正：它各單位不一樣嘛，我的要求講的是要先調整職務，但並沒有好像講的這個明目張膽的，先調整開之後調查，這個我們不一定……"],["蔡委員適應：剛才參謀長的講法是說怕影響到讓他知悉到，讓他發現……"],["邱部長國正：不，但是有些工作已經不准他接觸了，所以……"],["蔡委員適應：那比如說像我問到的，金防部守備大隊康奕彬呢？"],["陳局長育琳：報告委員，我們在調查的過程當中有做相關的損害管控，每個個案不一樣，方便的話，我們會後派人跟您做說明。"],["蔡委員適應：好，那我想問一下，目前檢調查到的，我只講查到的，沒查到的我不知道，查到的機密跟極機密的部分總共多少件？你們有統計吧？有嘛，我只問總共多少件？"],["陳局長育琳：因為目前起訴之後，現在高等法院還在偵查當中。"],["蔡委員適應：起訴之後高等法院要開庭審理，不是在偵查，裡面已經寫得很清楚，檢調目前查獲的有多少件機密或極機密的案子，上面有寫，我只問說上面有寫，你們知道多少件嗎？第一個你一定要知道多少件，你才能夠做損害控管吧，所以我現在問一下國防部的，有人可以告訴我，總共多少件極機密就好了，否則你怎麼做損害控管呢？"],["邱部長國正：這個件數……"],["蔡委員適應：好，部長，我問到這邊，我時間到了。"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，要講件數的話，我們還要詳細的查，了解之後再跟你回報。"],["蔡委員適應：沒關係，部長，我建議這樣子，因為這個事情還蠻重要的，我這個不是在……"],["邱部長國正：是蠻重要的，我沒有等閒看之。"],["蔡委員適應：對，我問這個不是在苛責部長，因為國防部的人……"],["邱部長國正：我不怕人家苛責……"],["蔡委員適應：國防部的人那麼多，我們每一個單位都有每個人負責的工作，我剛剛就提到，其中有一些軍中的保防是重要的一件事情，有沒有落實到營區的管理，這是重要的事情，比如像剛剛我們提到的，為什麼Telegram會有其他的手機會帶到營區裡面去，而且裡面養的是所謂的作戰官、情報官，理論上這是最應該要恪遵相關規定的職務的人，這些人他本身都違法的話，那代表什麼？代表他的主官管可能平常沒有在注意這件事情嘛，我講的這些就是我們要瞭解的狀況。","第二個狀況是，事情發生之後，國安跟檢調的相關單位在調查完之後，都有把這些內容在起訴書中寫出來，包括我們自己內部的調查裡面就要非常清楚的知道，我有多少極機密的案件、我有多少機密的案件有可能外洩，甚至其實是不止的，因為他可能只講了這五個，可能有六個、七個、八個，另外我們沒查到的這些相關涉案人士就不講出來，在這種狀況之下，各個單位你要不要重新修正？這些都是要做的事情嘛！我剛剛只是問了一個問題說，有幾件案子要修正？好，那也許你覺得這又是機密了，我只是說檢調的起訴書上已經有寫多少件了啊！","拜託部長，這件事情從事情發生至今剛好都是在你任內發生的，從110年開始，您就任部長之後就開始陸陸續續發生這些事情，我認為這是非常重要的一件事情，我也拜託部長，把這個起訴書的內容研析清楚。就我的理解，你們現在去調相關的整個資料應該是可以調得到，我建議你們，除了起訴書之外，檢調相關的偵查報告內容，還有加上我們國防部自己的內部調查，都把它彙整清楚，因為我覺得這個案子實在太誇張、太嚴重了，裡面幾個小兵、小官、士官跟阿兵哥說拍影片，我覺得那就算了，裡面有很多的校級軍官跟尉級軍官去拍了我們重要的極機密資料，然後把它傳給中國去，這真的是很莫名其妙的事情啦！沒有發現的還不曉得有多少件，所以拜託部長，這件事情好好的瞭解調查清楚。以上，謝謝。"],["邱部長國正：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝蔡委員。","接下來請林靜儀委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":244,"meet_id":"聯席會議-10-8-35,19-1","speakers":["廖婉汝","李德維","林昶佐","陳亭妃","陳以信","賴瑞隆","王定宇","楊瓊瓔","吳斯懷","江啟臣","林靜儀","何志偉","劉世芳","羅致政","蔡適應","邱臣遠","陳椒華","陳明文","蔡易餘","馬文君","趙天麟","陳超明"],"page_start":157,"meetingDate":["2023-12-11"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國防部部長報告「兵役延長配套與整備現況及國防學士班與國軍現行各人才招募管道精\n進作為」，並備質詢；二、審查本院國民黨黨團擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條條文修正草案」\n案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來你們這個案子到目前為止你們調查之後有多少極機密的案件需要重新修正"},{"start":422.403,"end":449.24,"text":"我跟委員報告,我們當初審查以後一有這種狀況,我們第一個一送法辦以外先做一個職務調整,該要撤就撤了。這些人是被調查以後才法辦,還是之前就先...發掘以後,一方面送辦,再一方面我們行政局開始處理。那這樣好,部長你這樣講我想請教你一個問題啊,那個卸謀書是被檢調逮捕之後才調整單位,還是之前就調整單位?先調整吧。"},{"start":450.367,"end":451.688,"text":"二、何姓盧花防部少校座三官"},{"start":468.722,"end":496.013,"text":"各位委員報告在這個獲悉保防安全他們相關的報告之後那我們是要不可以先有任何的動作那因為整個已經是進入減調的階段那但是所以你的意思是說你們已經知道他有問題但是你們沒有動他的職務就對了我們的意思是這樣子那為什麼剛才講了一個航特部就說先調職這又邏輯不通了吧"},{"start":497.143,"end":499.224,"text":"那比如說像我問到的那金防部守備大隊抗疫兵呢?"},{"start":521.141,"end":537.167,"text":"報告委員,我們在調查的過程當中有做相關的損害管控,每個個案不一樣,那方便的話我們會合派人跟你做說明。目前檢調查到的,我只講查到的,沒查到的我不知道,查到的機密跟極機密的部分總共多少件?你們有統計吧?有嗎?我只問總共多少件?"},{"start":543.168,"end":547.391,"text":"因為目前起訴之後現在高等法院還在偵查當中。"},{"start":575.546,"end":582.528,"text":"否則你怎麼損壞空管呢?國防部長我問到這邊我時間到了齁。國防部的人那麼多啦齁。我們每一個單位都有每個人負責的工作。"},{"start":598.474,"end":617.593,"text":"那我剛剛就提到就是說這個裡面有一些軍中的保防是重要的一件事情有沒有落實到營區的管理這是重要的事情比如像剛剛我們提到的為什麼Telegram或有其他手機會帶到營區裡面去而且裡面講的是所謂的作戰官、情報官這個理論上是最應該要克軍相關我們規定的職務的人馬"},{"start":618.894,"end":646.556,"text":"好,那這些人他本身都違法的話那代表什麼?代表他的主觀觀可能會平常沒有在注意這件事情嘛那我想這些就是我們要了解的狀況第二個狀況是事情發生之後國安檢調的相關單位在調查完之後都有把這些檢調的起訴書寫出來我包括我們自己內部的調查裡面就要非常的清楚知道我有多少極機密的案件我有多少機密的案件有可能外洩甚至其實是不只的啊"},{"start":647.369,"end":648.81,"text":"二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員"},{"start":668.129,"end":688.17,"text":"拜託部長,這件事情,從事情發生,剛好都是在任內的事情發生的,從110年開始,您就任部長之後開始錄製的這件事情發生,我認為這是非常重要的一件事情。那我也拜託部長,把這個起訴書的內容延期清楚。我的理解啦,你們現在去調相關的整個的資料應該是可以調得到啦。"},{"start":689.629,"end":716.454,"text":"我建議你們把除了起訴書之外相關檢調的偵查報告內容還有加上我們國防部自己內部調查都把它彙整清楚因為我覺得這個案子實在太誇張太嚴重了裡面幾個小兵小官士官跟阿兵哥說拍影片我覺得那就算了裡面有很多的校級軍官跟衛級軍官就拍了我們的重要的集機秘密資料把它傳給中國去這真的是很莫名其妙的事情啊"},{"start":718.108,"end":724.841,"text":"所以我要如果沒有發現的不曉得有多少件所以拜託部長這件事情好好的了解調查清楚以上謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}