{"error":false,"id":["148968"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":148968,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148968","日期":"2023-12-11","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-10-8-15-13","會議代碼:str":"第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議","屆":10,"會期":8,"會次":13,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[15],"委員會代碼:str":["內政委員會"],"標題":"第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2023-12-11T11:31:58+08:00","結束時間":"2023-12-11T11:41:28+08:00","影片長度":"00:09:30","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0ee4ec253a72029932b42ebf8c01e0694fc233f19f174e7c986728e607a0322d9703f2b8768d29e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃世杰","委員發言時間":"11:31:58 - 11:41:28","會議時間":"2023-12-11T10:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員、內政部部長、警政署署長、消防署署長、海巡署署長、原住民族委員會主任委員、國防部、法務部就「第16任總統副總統及第11屆立法委員選舉選務工作辦理情形、執勤軍警消海巡人員投票權益、文化健康站等工作人員於選舉期間之行政中立」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請司法院列席備詢。二、原住民身分法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原住民身分法修正草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等16人擬具「原住民身分法第五條、第七條及第九條條文修正草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員劉櫂豪等18人擬具「原住民身分法第九條條文修正草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員郭國文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案。(五)繼續審查委員張宏陸等20人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案。(六)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等18人擬具「原住民身分法第四條及第八條之一條文修正草案」案。(七)審查委員蔡適應等25人擬具「原住民身分法第四條、第七條及第八條條文修正草案」案。(八)審查委員陳明文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第九條條文修正草案」案。三、原住民族工作權保障法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(二)審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(三)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等18人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法修正草案」案。(四)審查委員陳瑩等16人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第十一條條文修正草案」案。(五)審查委員陳瑩等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第四條條文修正草案」案。(六)審查委員廖國棟等25人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(七)審查委員孔文吉等22人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。四、姓名條例：(一)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等16人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員伍麗華SaidhaiTahovecahe等20人擬具「姓名條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具「姓名條例第九條條文修正草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員廖國棟等16人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案。【12月11日、14日兩天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":775,"blocks":[["黃委員世杰：（11時32分）謝謝主席。我們是不是請法務部黃謀信常次？"],["主席：黃次長請。"],["黃次長謀信：委員好。"],["黃委員世杰：次長好。我記得你好像也是我們桃園的鄉親，你老家在觀音白玉，離甘泉寺很近，對不對？你家到甘泉寺走路幾分鐘？應該5分鐘以內就走得到。"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["黃委員世杰：我很少在這邊講關於個案的事情，但是這件事情跟我們共同的故鄉有很大的關係，所以我希望很明確的請你來進行協助。桃園科技園區在哪裡你知道嗎？桃科。"],["黃次長謀信：在觀音附近。"],["黃委員世杰：在觀音對不對？在白玉跟大潭嘛！"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["黃委員世杰：有3家SRF電廠要進駐，在地方上產生很大的爭議，你知道這個新聞嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：對，我知道。"],["黃委員世杰：那麼你也知道已經引發了很多的抗議。"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["黃委員世杰：所以現在其實不管是中央政府或地方政府都在重新檢討當初的這個決定，但是這個過程裡面也引發了一些其中是不是有弊案的爭議，我先讓你看一下影片。","（播放影片）"],["黃委員世杰：次長，你有看清楚嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：是。"],["黃委員世杰：這個議員你知道是誰嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：報告委員，我不清楚。"],["黃委員世杰：不瞭解是不是？可能很久沒回老家了。"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["黃委員世杰：這個議員是我們現任的桃園市議員吳進昌，他就在你的老家觀音的信仰中心甘泉寺前面說了這段話。請教次長，如果這個議員所說屬實，有廠商找民意代表，期約5,000萬這麼大的利益，而且是1年，言下之意就是每年都有喔！然後要求他為一定職權的行使或不行使，這個有沒有觸犯刑法？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，就抽象的法律來講，因為他本身是依法執行公務的人員，他是公務員，貪污治罪條例對公務員行求期約或交付賄賂的話，在法律上是有處罰的規定，我講法律上。"],["黃委員世杰：所以民意代表也是廣義上行使公權力……"],["黃次長謀信：他也是公務員規範的對象。"],["黃委員世杰：刑法上的公務員嘛，對不對？"],["黃次長謀信：沒錯。"],["黃委員世杰：所以他所描述的情節，我們檢調單位是不是應該要偵查？"],["黃次長謀信：委員已經問到個案，個案上檢察官如果因告訴、告發、自首或其他情事知有犯罪嫌疑，其所屬地檢署可以依法來處理。"],["黃委員世杰：我知道你們法務部調查局也有肅貪組，地方上也都有據點，知道這樣子的情資，有沒有主動去偵查？因為這個事關我們人民的重大權益，而且5,000萬，如果他議員任期4年，加起來是2億，這麼重大，搞不好破紀錄，如果這個賄款成真的話。而且他還意圖指涉有其他人有相關這些情節，他自己說他自己沒有拿，到底有沒有拿我不知道，他所描述、指控的情節，難道我們的檢調單位不應該主動偵查嗎？不應該請他具體說明嗎？他連相對人都講得相對清楚，那三家裡面有兩家去找他，他只是沒講是哪兩家而已。"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，有這樣子的披露，理論上來講，所屬的地檢署知道有這個犯罪嫌疑的話，按照刑訴法第二百二十八條的規定應即開始偵辦，但前提是所屬地檢署要判斷這個案子是不是要啟動偵查。"],["黃委員世杰：我們現在是不是可以請你們轉知，所屬應該是桃園地檢署？"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["黃委員世杰：還有你們法務部調查局相關的權責單位，就這麼嚴重侵害人民權益，這麼嚴重妨害行政官員以及民意代表執行公務的廉潔性，這種指控這麼嚴重，竟然沒有任何調查，連請這個議員去說一下到底哪兩家去找他都沒有。"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，任何人知道有犯罪行為都可以依法提出告發，包括委員今天這個質詢，我們也當作告發案來轉知所屬機關處理。"],["黃委員世杰：好，請你們要很嚴肅認真的去查察，包括這位議員所說的是不是事實，以及他所意圖影射的後面其他人，包含行政官員、其他民意代表。","你知道他講完之後的第二天，我們觀音有兩席議員，另外一席議員就被民眾問說：他拿5,000萬，那你有沒有？","我相信這個事情是非常嚴重的，我們應該要很嚴肅地去看待它，如果連這樣子的披露跟指控都不處理，我們的檢調單位當作都沒看到，要怎麼去取信於人民說我們真的有在維護政府機關，包含民意代表行使職務的公正跟廉潔性？"],["黃次長謀信：是。委員今天質詢之後，我們會把資料轉給桃園地檢署，桃園地檢署會依法處理。"],["黃委員世杰：因為我們有共同的故鄉，希望你站在鄉親的權益上面，一定要嚴加督導這個事情，一定要徹查，可以嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：我沒有權力處理，地檢署……"],["黃委員世杰：我知道你要轉知。"],["黃次長謀信：對，會依法處理。"],["黃委員世杰：我們的檢察體系我知道權力分離。"],["黃次長謀信：謝謝。"],["黃委員世杰：另外，剛剛很多委員也有提到中國介選，比較常講到的就是假訊息。最近好像橋頭地檢署有個案件涉及用低價、甚至無償招待里長或其他地方人士前往中國旅遊，請問有這個案子嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，現在事實上也不只橋頭地檢署，有好幾個地檢署有類似的案件在偵辦中。"],["黃委員世杰：你們有沒有確實掌握這個所謂的邀請，因為他一定在臺灣有相關組織或窗口做這樣的邀請，不然你怎麼知道要去哪裡報名？"],["黃次長謀信：從各相關地檢署發布的新聞稿來看，甚至有些已經做具體的強制處分，甚至有聲請羈押的動作。羈押或強制處分的前提要有犯罪嫌疑，所以就具體事證來講，所屬的地檢署應該要有掌握，要不然不會做相關的強制處分，甚至聲請羈押的動作。"],["黃委員世杰：辦這個案子不是說事後去補救，如果可以的話，選前剩下三十幾天，這種行為我們要能夠主動遏止，所以我問你說大家有沒有去找到相關的組織，因為你們蔡部長接受媒體訪問的時候已經說這個有可能涉及違反反滲透法的相關法令，所以它不只是單純的賄選或相關一般的國內案件，這個其實跟我們國家的民主、獨立自主有相當大的關係。所以我希望我們的檢調單位能夠正視，而且能夠嚇阻這樣的行為，相關新聞稿出來也要廣為宣傳，跟我們啟動的反賄選查察等等的相關宣傳要結合在一起。"],["黃次長謀信：除了反賄選宣導之外，我們相信最嚴厲、最嚴格的查賄就是最好的反賄，經過我們嚴厲的查賄之後，它其實達到一個宣導的作用。"],["黃委員世杰：好，那我就希望你們在宣導上面，這一種型態也要把它列入。"],["黃次長謀信：是。"],["黃委員世杰：很多人可能不瞭解這個事情的嚴重性，事實上很多地方的里長或什麼的，他不知道這件事情有多嚴重，我們應該要加大宣導力度，讓他們不要誤蹈法網。"],["黃次長謀信：是。"],["黃委員世杰：以上，謝謝。"],["黃次長謀信：謝謝委員。"],["主席：等一下在羅委員質詢完之後，休息5分鐘。","現在請鄭天財委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":156,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-15-13","speakers":["游毓蘭","賴品妤","陳玉珍","張宏陸","王美惠","陳以信","黃世杰","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","羅美玲","莊瑞雄","江啟臣","李德維","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳椒華","林文瑞","陳琬惠","邱臣遠","廖國棟Sufin‧Siluko","陳瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2023-12-11"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員、內政部部長、警政署署長、消防署署長、海巡署署長、原住\n民族委員會主任委員、國防部、法務部就「第16任總統副總統及第11屆立法委員選舉選務工作辦\n理情形、執勤軍警消海巡人員投票權益、文化健康站等工作人員於選舉期間之行政中立」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢；另邀請司法院列席備詢；二、原住民身分法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原\n住民身分法修正草案」案、(二)繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等16人擬具「原住民身分法第五\n條、第七條及第九條條文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審查委員劉櫂豪等18人擬具「原住民身分法第\n九條條文修正草案」案、(四)繼續審查委員郭國文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草\n案」案、(五)繼續審查委員張宏陸等20人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案、(六)繼\n續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「原住民身分法第四條及第八條之一條文修正草案」\n案、( 七) 審查委員蔡適應等25 人擬具「原住民身分法第四條、第七條及第八條條文修正草案」\n案、(八)審查委員陳明文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第九條條文修正草案」案；三、原住民族工\n作權保障法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)審\n查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)審查\n委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等18人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法修正草案」案、(四)審查\n委員陳瑩等16人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第十一條條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員陳瑩等\n17 人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第四條條文修正草案」案、 ( 六) 審查委員廖國棟等25 人擬具\n「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)審查委員孔文吉等22人擬具「原住民族工\n作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案；四、姓名條例：(一)繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等16人\n擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案、(二)繼續審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 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謝謝主席齁我們是不是請那個法務部黃謀信長次黃次長請委員好市長好朋友好我記得你好像也是這個我們桃園的鄉親嘛對你老家在觀音的白玉嘛對不對魚乾泉寺很近對不對魚乾澇乾泉寺走路幾分鐘"},{"start":31.043,"end":52.581,"text":"應該5分鐘以內就走得到了那今天有一個這個我很少在這邊講關於個案的事情但是這個事情跟我們共同的故鄉很大的關係所以我希望很明確的請你來進行一個協助那麼最近桃園我們的桃園科技園區在哪裡你知道嗎桃科"},{"start":53.241,"end":73.6,"text":"在觀音附近在觀音嘛對不對在白玉跟大潭對那麼有三家SRF電廠要進駐在地方上產生很大的爭議對你知道這個新聞嗎我知道那麼你也知道說所以已經引發了很多的這個抗議對所以現在其實不管是中央政府或地方政府都在重新檢討當初的這個決定"},{"start":76.875,"end":85.36,"text":"但是這個過程裡面也引發了一些是不是在裡面有弊案的一些爭議我先讓你看一下一個影片來放影片有沒有聲音"},{"start":104.145,"end":128.857,"text":"當我在3月份披露當我在3月份披露SRF廠在我們的桃科設廠之後陸續有兩家要來摸頭我在觀音、甘田市慈觀音佛祖面前向大家鄭重報告所說的這個利益"},{"start":130.171,"end":142.138,"text":"他說是前朝決定的我是新科議員我不要講話就好一年要多少要給我五張很大張喔五千萬"},{"start":147.675,"end":173.596,"text":"市長,你看得有清楚嗎?這個議員你知道是誰嗎?不知道解,是不是?可能很久沒回老家了這個議員是我們現任的討議室議員吳敬昌他就在你的老家這個觀音的信仰中心甘玄寺前面講了這段話請教市長,如果這個議員所說屬實由廠商找民意代表契約"},{"start":175.236,"end":187.487,"text":"五千萬這麼大的利益而且是一年了言下之意就是每年都有然後要求他為一定職權的行使或不行使這個有沒有出犯刑法"},{"start":188.568,"end":216.064,"text":"官員報告就抽象的法律來講如果他因為他本身是依法執行公務的人員他是公務員那我們的貪污罪條例上面對這一個公務員行求契約或交付賄賂的話他法律上他是有處罰的規定我講法律上所以這個民意代表也是這個廣義的這個行使公權他也是公務員行法上的公務員嘛對不對所以呢他所描述的情節"},{"start":217.265,"end":240.674,"text":"是不是我們的檢調單位應該要偵查的那委員已經問到個案個案上他那個就是說那檢察官如果說應告訴告發這時候其他行事只有犯罪嫌疑那所屬的管轄的地檢署他可以依法來處理那但是我知道你們法務部電腦局也有這個宿攤組對不對那地方上也都有據點嘛對不對"},{"start":242.174,"end":270.212,"text":"知道這樣的情資有沒有主動去偵查這個是關我們人民的重大的權益而且這個五千萬如果他一人任期四年加起來是兩億這有沒有重大的這個可能是這個搞不好破紀錄如果這個匯款成真的話而且他還意圖指涉說有其他的人有相關的這些情節他自己說他自己沒有拿"},{"start":271.204,"end":288.857,"text":"到底有沒有拿我不知道了那他所描述指控的這樣的情節難道我們的檢察單位不應該主動來偵查嗎不應該請他去具體就說他連相對的講得相對清楚那三家裡面有兩家去找他他只是沒講是哪兩家而已"},{"start":290.803,"end":308.187,"text":"跟我們報告那因為這個有這樣子的披露理論上來講他所屬的地檢署他知道這個有這個犯罪嫌疑的話按照我們刑訴法228條的規定他應急開始偵辦那前提是所屬的地檢署要做一個判斷這個案子是要啟動偵查那我們現在是不是可以請你們轉資這一個"},{"start":310.988,"end":334.404,"text":"所屬應該是桃園地檢署還有你們法務部調查局相關的權責單位就這麼嚴重侵害人民權益這麼嚴重的妨礙我們行政的官員以及我們的民意代表執行公務的連結性這種指控這麼嚴重竟然沒有任何的調查連請這個議員去說一下到底哪兩家去找他都沒有"},{"start":335.612,"end":361.288,"text":"各位報告任何人知道這個有犯罪行為的話都可以依法提出告發報告委員今天在這個質詢那我們也當作告發案來轉知所屬機關其實我們要很嚴肅認真的去查查包括這位議員所說的是不是事實以及他所意圖影射的後面其他人包含行政官員包含其他民意代表你知道他講完之後第二天我們官員有兩席議員"},{"start":362.573,"end":367.008,"text":"另外一席議員就被民眾問說他哪有五千萬那你有沒有"},{"start":368.444,"end":392.737,"text":"我相信這個事情是非常嚴重的我們應該要很嚴肅的去看待它如果連這樣子的披露跟這個指控我們都不處理我們假如大家當中沒看到那我們要怎麼去取信於人民說我們真的有在維護我們政府機關八二民意代表食食植物的公正跟廉潔性"},{"start":393.911,"end":410.02,"text":"是委員今天執勤之後我們會把資料轉給台灣地檢署台灣地檢署會依法處理好那也是因為我們都是共同的故鄉希望你站在我們鄉親的權益上面一定要嚴加來督導這個事情一定要來徹查可以嗎"},{"start":411.302,"end":431.392,"text":"地檢署我沒有權利處理地檢署假、原委員我知道你要組織我們這個檢查體系我知道這個權利分離謝謝那另外還有這個剛剛很多委員也有提到這個中國借選那麼比較常講到就是假訊息那最近好像橋頭地檢署一個案件涉及這個"},{"start":433.682,"end":452.199,"text":"用低價甚至無償招待里長或其他地方人士前往中國旅遊請問有這個案子嗎各位報告現在事實上也不只橋樓地檢署有好幾個地檢署有類似的案件在偵辦中那你們有沒有確實的掌握"},{"start":453.14,"end":482.244,"text":"他這個所謂的邀請或是說因為他一定在台灣有相關的這個組織或是說有窗口來去做這樣的邀請不然你怎麼知道去哪裡報名各位報告那從各相關地檢署發布的新聞稿來看他甚至有些已經做這個具體的強制處分甚至有申請羈押的動作那羈押或強制處分前提要有犯罪嫌疑所以就具體事證來講所屬的地檢署應該要有掌握要不然他不會有做相關的強制處分甚至申請羈押的動作好"},{"start":483.524,"end":505.074,"text":"我們是希望說辦這個案子不是說事後去補救如果可以的話選前剩下三十幾天這種行為我們要能夠主動去把它遏止所以我問你說大家有沒有去找到這個相關的組織因為你們蔡部長協眾媒體訪問的時候已經說這個是涉及到有可能違反反滲透法"},{"start":506.154,"end":525.425,"text":"相關的這個法令所以它不只是單純的這個會選或是說什麼相關的一般的我們國內案件這個其實跟這個我們國家民主的這個獨立自主相當大的關係所以希望說我們的檢調單位能夠正式而且能夠去嚇阻這樣的行為"},{"start":526.665,"end":546.477,"text":"這個相關的信息搞出來也要廣為宣傳跟我們啟動的這個反會選查查等等的相關的這個宣傳要結合在一起各位報告我們除了這個反會選宣導之外我們相信最嚴厲最嚴格的查會就是最好的反會經過我們嚴厲的查會之後它其實達到一個宣導的作用"},{"start":546.923,"end":548.644,"text":"市民、民族、社會、社會、社會、社會、社會、社會、社會、社會、社會、社會、社會、社會、社會"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}