{"error":false,"id":["148972"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":148972,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148972","日期":"2023-12-11","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"聯席會議-10-8-35,19-1","會議代碼:str":"第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議","屆":10,"會期":8,"會次":1,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"聯席會議","委員會代碼":[35,19],"委員會代碼:str":["外交及國防委員會","經濟委員會"],"標題":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2023-12-11T12:17:08+08:00","結束時間":"2023-12-11T12:26:27+08:00","影片長度":"00:09:19","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0ee4ec253a720299264c10e5793e54292351fad24fff329c986728e607a0322e2ce94d99c1cf0755ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅致政","委員發言時間":"12:17:08 - 12:26:27","會議時間":"2023-12-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、邀請國防部部長報告「兵役延長配套與整備現況及國防學士班與國軍現行各人才招募管道精進作為」，併請內政部、教育部、勞動部列席，並備質詢。\n二、審查本院國民黨黨團擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查本院委員邱志偉等22人擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條及第十九條條文修正草案」案。）","gazette":{"lineno":1044,"blocks":[["羅委員致政：（12時17分）謝謝主席，麻煩請邱部長。"],["主席：邱部長請。"],["邱部長國正：委員好。"],["羅委員致政：部長早，辛苦了。我們回到今天的主題，因為役期回到1年之後，不只是1年役期相關的議題要去處理，它對於我們現有的一些相關的招募管道跟制度的衝擊，我相信要一併來討論，這也是本席今天希望從這個角度來切入。今天在討論當中有一個所謂國防學士班，剛剛我們也討論過所謂要停招的這個可能的決定，部長我請問一下，109年開始招到現在為止，第一次招的人畢業了沒有？第一批畢業了沒有？"],["邱部長國正：畢業了嘛，第一批招的畢業了嘛。"],["羅委員致政：畢業幾人？"],["邱部長國正：有3個人。"],["羅委員致政：你們覺得他們表現如何？"],["劉次長沛智：目前在部隊服役都還算正常。"],["羅委員致政：正常是最低標，他們的表現如何？因為這都是國立大學的學生耶！"],["劉次長沛智：跟委員報告，目前7月1號畢業之後到分科學校受訓。"],["羅委員致政：所以還沒下部隊？"],["劉次長沛智：還沒下部隊，受訓的狀況都正常。"],["羅委員致政：好，我現在要問的就是說，坦白講，國防學士班是一個很特別的，因為他都是在國立學校，而且都是頂尖的學校，沒錯吧！"],["劉次長沛智：是。"],["羅委員致政：所以當時鎖定這些人不是以量為原則，是以質為原則，把他們帶到這麼好的學校去，然後帶到部隊來，希望他們對我們部隊的專業訓練能夠有所幫助，跟ROTC 不太一樣，沒錯吧！還是說就一般兵來用就好？當時我們設立國防學士班的目的何在？就這麼簡單，是為了補充你的量的不足？還是希望真的找到又有專業，即便量不多的這些人？"],["劉次長沛智：跟委員報告，我們是希望廣開整個軍官的來源。"],["羅委員致政：所以有就好，是不是？"],["邱部長國正：要有專業當然就更好嘛！像科技方面，為什麼當初理工學院跟著清大，他們會……"],["羅委員致政：沒有錯嘛，部長講的是重點啊！"],["邱部長國正：我們也期望，但是後來招到的狀況不然嘛……"],["羅委員致政：沒有，部長，我現在不是問招的狀況，我現在是問產品出來之後好不好嘛！如果這3個是好的、很優秀，臺大的、交大、清大出來的好，就算3個我也繼續辦，我坦白講，30個當然更好，對不對？我現在講的就是說，他們陸陸續續會畢業，這幾個人即便是少數，到底對我們國家戰力也好，或專業這塊有沒有提升，請你們繼續觀察好不好？"],["邱部長國正：是。"],["羅委員致政：不要因為他們這個班可能最後不見了，已經夭折了，然後就算了，就把這批人用完就算了，我覺得很可惜啊！部長同意我這個想法吧？"],["邱部長國正：同意啊，我們也希望它好嘛！"],["羅委員致政：對不對？"],["邱部長國正：對。"],["羅委員致政：其實，主席剛剛有一點很重要，就是到底是制度設計不夠好，還是這個制度本身就不應該存在？這的確可以討論啦！我們舉個例子來講，對這些高中畢業的學生來講，這個制度最大誘因在哪裡？大家覺得最大誘因在哪裡？"],["劉次長沛智：跟委員報告，當初設立的目的是希望他們補充軍官的來源，如果說……"],["羅委員致政：不是、不是，我現在問的是，對這些想要報名的學生，你覺得它最大誘因在哪裡？為什麼我想選擇這個？不是ROTC，甚至不是讀正期生，為什麼？你覺得誘因在哪裡？"],["劉次長沛智：他們希望能夠有專業發展，就是說……"],["羅委員致政：不是啦！不是啦！坦白講，你們就沒有從需求面去思考，讀國立大學、好的學校啦！沒錯吧？"],["邱部長國正：國立大學、好的學校，一方面他平常的生活，還有他的教育，我們都有資助，另外他一樣可以在……"],["羅委員致政：不是、不是，部長，財力的誘因，我跟你講，跟ROTC差不多啦！"],["邱部長國正：對，差不多嘛！一樣的，幾乎一樣。"],["羅委員致政：對不對？"],["邱部長國正：對。"],["羅委員致政：所以如果ROTC跟學士班來比的話，其他誘因都一樣啊，唯一不同是ROTC廣開嘛。"],["邱部長國正：對。"],["羅委員致政：可是國防學士班很多重點國立學校，就算5年當完兵之後，我還有交大的文憑、我有臺大的文憑、我有清大的文憑，沒錯吧？"],["邱部長國正：是。"],["羅委員致政：這才是誘因啊！所以如果你只從你國防部的角度思考到底能不能招到學生，你沒有從學生的角度思考，這是很大的問題喔！"],["邱部長國正：可是ROTC也一樣有他們學校的文憑。"],["羅委員致政：我知道，但是不是所有學校都是國立嘛！有部分啦！我再舉個例子，制度上有一個很大的問題是一般年輕人不敢去參加國防學士班，知道為什麼嗎？退訓就退學！沒錯吧？就是他如果讀到一半不讀了，抱歉！臺大就讀不下去了。"],["劉次長沛智：對，就沒有學歷。"],["羅委員致政：沒錯啊！"],["劉次長沛智：但這是當初律定的教授他們堅持的。"],["羅委員致政：我知道嘛！"],["劉次長沛智：教育部同意的。"],["羅委員致政：所以這些學生不是一般學生，因為可能他只要有一天不想走軍人這條路了、不想服兵役了，抱歉！兩頭空，沒錯吧？"],["劉次長沛智：是。"],["羅委員致政：你覺得一個高中生他敢做這個決定嗎？如果你的小孩子讀到大三了，決定不讀了，抱歉！臺大也沒了，也不用當兵，還要賠錢。天啊！這是豪賭吔！"],["劉次長沛智：報告委員，這個是當初清華的副校長和教育部所談的。"],["羅委員致政：我也知道當初啊！我知道，所以你知道一個高中生畢業的時候決定要簽這個終身契約，不要說賣身契啦！簽這個契約下去，那個風險多高？"],["劉次長沛智：有點太年輕了。"],["羅委員致政：因為你們自己講嘛，投資跟效益無法滿足，其實我覺得不是投資跟效益的問題，那是只從你們的角度來看，所以投資、效益，我辦得那麼辛苦、承辦人那麼辛苦，只招3個、4個，重點是你從來沒有面對一個問題，那就是這些學生在選擇這個制度，不是ROTC、不是正期生的時候，我講白一點，比讀軍官學校還風險高。"],["邱部長國正：所以我跟委員報告，為什麼當初我們這個班，剛剛講的，是大學教授、副校長自己訂的，對不對？我們並沒有想要順水推舟，但既然能夠這麼有把握，我們當然樂意投資，可是這幾年所看到的成果不好嘛！"],["羅委員致政：沒有、沒有。"],["邱部長國正：不好我們就把它回到加入ROTC，它也沒有這個問題啊！"],["羅委員致政：部長，這個制度都不是你在任的時候設的，我都知道，不是問題，政策該檢討要檢討，但檢討是馬上就說：停！不要！還是有其他方法可以改進？我舉個例子，現在很多企業跟臺大 EMBA合作說幫它開班，但不是占他們一般的學生人數，而是用其他方式來滿足嘛！所以你們現在要改，我也沒意見，你要廢掉，我也沒意見，我現在講的就是我們真正面對問題，不要只從國防部的本位主義，我的投資效益如何、我的成效如何，一個制度的設計，就跟ROTC也是一樣，你要回想一下這些學生為什麼？有什麼誘因讓他覺得要選擇這條路？如果你只從國防部的角度，而不從學生的角度的話，坦白講，這也是一個風險很高的決定喔！這個決定決定下去之後兩頭空，到時候誰為他的人生負責？我問一下，現在有沒有學生退訓就退學的？有沒有？"],["劉次長沛智：有21員，目前有……"],["羅委員致政：他讀到大幾的時候退掉的？"],["劉次長沛智：對。"],["羅委員致政：大部分是讀到大幾的時候？"],["劉次長沛智：大部分都是大一、大二，大三、大四基本上不會退了。"],["羅委員致政：來不及了吧！因為他投資已經丟下去了嘛！"],["劉次長沛智：是。"],["羅委員致政：他大一、大二退完之後呢？重考大學？"],["劉次長沛智：對。"],["羅委員致政：認賠出場？"],["劉次長沛智：是。"],["羅委員致政：沒錯吧！"],["劉次長沛智：是。"],["羅委員致政：因為讀到大四的時候再後悔也來不及了。所以這個制度面的問題，坦白講，當時在規劃跟設計的時候的確有很大的問題。我沒有怪部長或是我們這些國防部的同仁，當時設計的時候真的最缺的就是學生端的需求跟誘因。當然，現在很多訓練的課程，包括入伍訓練和大學階段寒暑假的軍事訓練，坦白講，很「ㄍ一ㄥ」吔！等於他幾乎沒有寒暑假，這些制度面的檢討，我之所以要提這些，部長你也知道，ROTC也全部包括這4項，沒錯吧？"],["邱部長國正：沒錯。"],["羅委員致政：很操喔！這些學生真的很操！相較一般大學生，我講白一點，他已經沒有大學生的生活了啦，真的！一旦當我們又恢復到一年役期之後，上次我也請問過部長，我擔心會不會衝擊到ROTC吸收的這個情況，因為你們看嘛！雖然你們都說招獲率百分之百，不錯，但是你們的計畫是逐年下降啊，等到恢復到1年之後，我跟你保證一定會繼續下降，甚至搞到最後也要廢掉ROTC。在還沒有決定要廢之前，我們再好好檢討一下，到底問題出在什麼地方？不要只從投資效益跟成果來看，那個只是解決國防部的問題，並沒有解決學生的問題，他真的有興趣，但如果制度再好一點的話，我相信還是可以留住一些優秀的年輕人願意投入我們軍中的行列，好不好？"],["邱部長國正：好。"],["羅委員致政：謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：好，謝謝羅委員。","接下來請李德維委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":244,"meet_id":"聯席會議-10-8-35,19-1","speakers":["廖婉汝","李德維","林昶佐","陳亭妃","陳以信","賴瑞隆","王定宇","楊瓊瓔","吳斯懷","江啟臣","林靜儀","何志偉","劉世芳","羅致政","蔡適應","邱臣遠","陳椒華","陳明文","蔡易餘","馬文君","趙天麟","陳超明"],"page_start":157,"meetingDate":["2023-12-11"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國防部部長報告「兵役延長配套與整備現況及國防學士班與國軍現行各人才招募管道精\n進作為」，並備質詢；二、審查本院國民黨黨團擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條條文修正草案」\n案；三、審查本院委員邱志偉等22人擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條及第十九條條文修正草案」\n案","agenda_id":"1130201_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.36409375,"end":2.0897187500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.235968750000001,"end":13.244093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.598468750000002,"end":17.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.31096875,"end":30.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.456593750000003,"end":34.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.877843750000004,"end":38.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.80971875,"end":39.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.19346875,"end":41.307218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.830343750000004,"end":43.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.63159375,"end":46.60596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.837843750000005,"end":48.71534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":49.525343750000005,"end":52.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.119718750000004,"end":53.65971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":53.25471875,"end":56.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.954718750000005,"end":55.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.039093750000006,"end":56.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.41034375,"end":57.89534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.45221875,"end":62.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.41346875000001,"end":64.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.96596875,"end":65.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.82659375,"end":71.95221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.44596875,"end":71.91846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.95221875,"end":72.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.39096875,"end":74.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.80409375,"end":81.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.57096875,"end":83.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.62971875000001,"end":84.05159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.00096875,"end":86.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.37596875,"end":88.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.73846875000001,"end":96.87659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.91034375000001,"end":97.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.66534375,"end":99.93096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.28096875,"end":103.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.84596875000001,"end":104.48721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.97659375,"end":108.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.80721875,"end":110.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.47784375,"end":114.35909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.35909375000001,"end":115.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.60784375,"end":117.12659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.21534375,"end":117.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.02096875000001,"end":118.03784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":118.03784375000001,"end":125.19284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.08846875,"end":118.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.45534375000001,"end":119.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.57284375,"end":124.99034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.02409375,"end":126.34034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":125.53034375000001,"end":130.12034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.98534375,"end":133.29284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02",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好 謝謝部長 謝謝主席"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}