{"error":false,"id":["149012"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149012,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149012","日期":"2023-12-13","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-10-8-26-14","會議代碼:str":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","屆":10,"會期":8,"會次":14,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2023-12-13T10:12:20+08:00","結束時間":"2023-12-13T10:22:35+08:00","影片長度":"00:10:15","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fcca7cb692a387d67e01be54a66e1a8bab799385851b1dc2c986728e607a032216680b52cefca5135ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐志榮","委員發言時間":"10:12:20 - 10:22:35","會議時間":"2023-12-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員陳明文等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。）","gazette":{"lineno":441,"blocks":[["徐委員志榮：（10時12分）謝謝主席，拜託許部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["許部長銘春：徐委員好。"],["徐委員志榮：部長，我這會期好像對勞動部是最軟的，然後最低工資法又過了。"],["許部長銘春：謝謝委員的支持。"],["徐委員志榮：今天是這會期最後一次質詢，我們今天主要講勞退條例，當勞工朋友退休以後，勞保跟勞退應該是他最主要的經濟來源，剛剛也聽了所得替代率等等，照我們現有的制度來講，領最低工資的人應該有百分之三十幾吧？"],["許部長銘春：至少應該有……"],["徐委員志榮：應該有三百多萬人嘛，領最低工資的勞工做了30年、35年下來……"],["許部長銘春：領最低工資大概百分之二十幾，我們現在有二百多萬人。"],["徐委員志榮：那也還算滿多的。"],["許部長銘春：大概占五分之一。"],["徐委員志榮：這樣他們的所得替代率等等算起來夠他們生活嗎？夠他們安心的生活嗎？領基本工資的人也有可能一直做到退休都還是領基本工資喔！"],["許部長銘春：對。退休的話，要看他的年資。"],["徐委員志榮：算30年的話，大概……"],["許部長銘春：我們現在是……"],["徐委員志榮：再加個勞退的話，二萬多？"],["許部長銘春：差不多2萬7、8啦！"],["徐委員志榮：2萬7、8應該還馬馬虎虎。"],["許部長銘春：我現在的印象是2萬5,000元就也差不多……"],["徐委員志榮：還馬馬虎虎，可以過活了。然後我們就講到是我自己的觀念錯誤還是怎樣？我們勞保的公務預算來挹注，剛剛好像主席也有講過，好像已經提撥二千多億元嘛？"],["許部長銘春：2,670億元。"],["徐委員志榮：我不知道這個是對還是錯，我一直的觀念是公務預算如果不撥補到這邊，我不是反對喔！譬如明年的1,000億還可以到其他各部會，還有很多地方要用，我的意思就是說一直用公務預算撥補的話，好像不是真正解決勞保年金幾年後幾年後會破產的根本解決之道。當然部長一再地說我們政府負責最後的支付責任，也不可能會破產，也可以讓大家安心，但我一直覺得用公務預算撥補，甚至於你明年1,000億，有可能以後會超過1,000億也不一定吧？也有可能吧？"],["許部長銘春：對，明年就1,200億。"],["徐委員志榮：就會超過嘛！我的意思是那個錢應該其他部會也都還有需要用，我們的根本解決之道應該是在勞保年金的改革上。當然一講到改革就講到多繳、少領、延後退，當然這很難處理，假設沒有公務預算的撥補，有沒有什麼其他方法可以讓勞保年金不要這麼快的破產？"],["許部長銘春：跟委員報告，其實目前大概所有不管是學者專家、各政黨或者政府所研議、討論當中的方案……"],["徐委員志榮：最簡單最簡單的就是公務預算撥補。"],["許部長銘春：撥補一定要有，因為現在第一個，我們的費率其實最高就到12%；第二個，我們年資給付率是1.55。這個收支逆差從106年就開始發生，所以政府撥補這件事情是各個版本都一定要有。"],["徐委員志榮：部長，一定要有，但是一直擴張的話我覺得也不是根本解決之道。大家參考看看，譬如我們增加勞參率，這個勞參率可能是針對婦女姐妹朋友，他們可能因為工時不方便還是其他原因，所以比較沒有工作的意願，可以用變形工時給他們有方便的時間去當勞工，意思就是當勞工的話就比較有人繳錢，比較多人繳保費嘛，甚至於65歲退休，是不是有可能一步一步、慢慢的從65到66，或者是一段時間後再從66到67退休，日本好像也到70歲才退是嗎？"],["許部長銘春：對，日本……"],["徐委員志榮：我也不是很清楚啦，我也不好意思透露我的年齡，其實像我這個年齡，我要去工作的話還是很行的啦！所以稍微延後退的話……"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，日本現在也是65，跟我們一樣，不過他們有研議要延長啦。"],["徐委員志榮：有研議要延長喔？所以我的意思也是說是否也可以研議延長，不是兵役的役啦，是研討看能不能延長。總歸就是我覺得一直用公務預算撥補雖然是必須要的，但是越來越多，你看從200億、300億、幾百億，數字好像越來越大了。反正就是開源節流嘛，延後退可能就是一種節流方式，開源可能就像我剛剛講的提高勞參率，當然比較主要的就是婦女朋友的變形工時，大概就講到這邊給你參考啦！","也有一些勞工朋友跟我提過，我們的勞保基金也是有委託代操，之前有一些人是想說他自提的部分可不可以他自己去委託民間的一些代操單位，甚至政府提撥的6%跟他自己提撥的6%是不是可以一起去委託？他可能認為他委託的獲益比較大。我知道我們政府會擔心他把自己的退休金老本委託到私人去以後血本無歸，退休生活更有麻煩，但是我一直在想，會提撥6%到代操的人不是會領基本工資的人，他應該都是電子新貴，一個月都是薪水幾十萬的人啦！不然那個6%，小小的錢操起來也沒有多少錢嘛！所以就算他提撥的6%跟政府的6%一起給它操，操到都算零的話，但他一個月領幾十萬、十幾萬薪水的人，生活也安全無虞啦！因此是不是我們也可以考慮，甚至於政府提撥的6%還在勞動部這邊操，而他自己提撥的6%，他搞不好一個月領薪水二、三十萬耶！他提撥6%去這樣代操的話，可能也是一種相當的金額，當然他認為他自己委外的話，獲益比部裡面操的多，他盈虧自己負責嘛！所以這方面是否也可以考慮啦？反正他自己去決定嘛！他自己決定，他要的話就自己負責嘛！"],["許部長銘春：對，謝謝委員剛剛的意見，我想這個部分我們都會去多聽聽大家的看法，的確如果……"],["徐委員志榮：當然在部裡面是有保障啦！"],["許部長銘春：對，就是我們會考慮到畢竟不是所有自提的勞工都可能是那麼高薪啦！有時候他自提的部分，他還是希望有保障，當然他自選之後，他自擔風險……"],["徐委員志榮：那當然啦！"],["許部長銘春：但我們會擔心像去年那種整個金融市場……"],["徐委員志榮：那他當然就自己負責啦！"],["許部長銘春：跌了兩、三成，勞工都很擔心啦！"],["徐委員志榮：對啦！"],["許部長銘春：所以我們會多重考量。"],["徐委員志榮：我的意思是，會去提撥給民間操作的人，他領的薪水一定是很多的啦！"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["徐委員志榮：萬一那邊泡湯掉，他領的薪水應該都還沒問題啦！"],["許部長銘春：對，其實……"],["徐委員志榮：我的論點是這樣。"],["許部長銘春：像這些高薪的，他其實也可以回到市場機制去選擇商品，也是一個方式，那也是一種自選，所以他其實不一定要進到這個自提裡面來，他也可以把自己本來要自提的，他其實就可以去購買商品嘛！"],["徐委員志榮：他也有可能自己在玩嘛！"],["許部長銘春：就是金融市場上的商品，譬如固定買基金或什麼，那又是另外一個投資方式，其實我們都鼓勵大家多方去理財，但最重要的就是一定要有保本啦！"],["徐委員志榮：對，我瞭解。"],["許部長銘春：不然的話，這個勞工的退休金，這是他退休經濟生活的安全，這很重要。"],["徐委員志榮：好，謝謝部長，也是給你參考而已啦！"],["許部長銘春：好，謝謝委員。"],["徐委員志榮：謝謝部長、謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝。","下一位請陳椒華委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":392,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-26-14","speakers":["吳欣盈","吳玉琴","蘇巧慧","賴惠員","張育美","陳瑩","徐志榮","陳椒華","黃秀芳","王婉諭","林為洲","邱泰源","洪申翰","陳培瑜","楊曜","莊競程"],"page_start":343,"meetingDate":["2023-12-13"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查 一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」\n案；二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案；三、委員溫玉\n霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；四、委員陳明文\n等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案；五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工\n退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案；六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、\n第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案；七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第\n十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案；八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金\n條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案；九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第\n十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案；十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分\n條文修正草案」案；十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草\n案」案；十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正\n草案」案；十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條\n文修正草案」案；十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案；十\n五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1130201_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.9797187500000004,"end":4.755968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.92471875,"end":5.43096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.021593750000001,"end":6.544718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.79784375,"end":7.5572187500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.92846875,"end":8.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.50221875,"end":8.535968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.535968750000002,"end":8.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.56971875,"end":12.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.974718750000001,"end":9.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.61971875,"end":13.024718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.024718750000002,"end":13.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.21034375,"end":24.398468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.15471875,"end":19.48784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.32284375,"end":22.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.36909375,"end":23.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.60534375,"end":23.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.68971875,"end":23.723468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.53346875,"end":24.617843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.668468750000002,"end":24.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.96784375,"end":27.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.59596875,"end":49.744718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.85846875,"end":52.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.52034375,"end":59.68409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":61.47284375,"end":63.73409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.57409375,"end":62.24909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.78471875,"end":69.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":64.10534375,"end":64.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.21846875,"end":70.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":71.22659375,"end":71.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.64846875,"end":73.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":72.59346875,"end":77.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.17534375000001,"end":76.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.79534375,"end":79.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":79.02284375,"end":80.22096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.35596875,"end":83.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.93346875,"end":88.25346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.09721875000001,"end":91.42596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":91.42596875000001,"end":91.49346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.49346875,"end":91.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":91.76346875,"end":92.01659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.01659375000001,"end":92.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.21909375,"end":95.84721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":92.38784375,"end":92.43846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.43846875000001,"end":92.47221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.42971875,"end":94.44659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.44659375,"end":94.81784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":97.02846875,"end":100.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.98159375,"end":101.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":101.04471875,"end":102.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.54659375,"end":103.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.03596875000001,"end":104.70659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.31846875000001,"end":109.16159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.22096875000001,"end":107.69346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":108.28409375000001,"end":110.86596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.89971875,"end":114.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.35096875,"end":112.75596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":113.43096875,"end":116.72159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.72159375000001,"end":116.92409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.51471875000001,"end":137.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":136.68471875,"end":138.47346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.47346875,"end":145.69596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.20221875000001,"end":151.16346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.38284375,"end":167.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.97096875,"end":192.659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«勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":154.422,"end":165.37,"text":"其他各部會還有很多地方要用的。我的意思就是說,好像一直用公務預算撥補的話,好像不是真正的解決這個"},{"start":168.195,"end":193.639,"text":"老闆年金他們說幾年後幾年後會不會破產的這個根本解決之道啦當然部長您一再的是說我們政府負責最後的這個支付責任也不可能會破產是這樣也可以讓大家安心我一直覺得就是說用公務意義上的撥補甚至於你明年一千億也有可能以後會超過一千億也不一定吧也有可能吧對明年就一千兩百億"},{"start":194.039,"end":195.9,"text":"其中一人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":221.397,"end":248.353,"text":"那是不是說如果沒有這個公務預算的撥補我們假設啦沒有公務預算的撥補有沒有什麼其他的方法來可以對這個勞保年金不要這麼快的跟委員報告齁其實目前啦齁大概所有不管是學者專家或各政黨或是政府所研議的齁就是說在討論當中的方案齁"},{"start":249.611,"end":269.157,"text":"最簡單就是撥補一定要有因為第一個我們的費率其實最高就到12%第二個我們年資給付率是1.55那這個收支逆差就從106年就開始了發生所以政府撥補這件事情是一定各個版本都一定要有"},{"start":269.497,"end":271.878,"text":"一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":294.429,"end":297.172,"text":"二、委員劉世芳等16人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":310.803,"end":338.558,"text":"較多人繳保費甚至於說我們到65歲退是不是有可能一步一步的慢慢的65到66或者是一段時間66到67日本好像也到70歲才退還是怎麼樣我也不是很詳細的我也不好意思透露我的年齡其實像我這個年齡我要去工作的話我還是很行的"},{"start":341.859,"end":345.84,"text":"立法院第10屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會"},{"start":356.612,"end":377.565,"text":"嚴議延長,不是兵役的役,是嚴討看能不能延長。總歸就是說,我是覺得說一直用公務預算,雖然是必須要的,但是越來越多,你看從兩百億、三百億、幾百億,好像數字越來越大了。"},{"start":379.048,"end":402.349,"text":"所以這個反正就是開研節流嘛節流可能就是延後退的一種節流方式開研可能就我剛剛講的這個提高勞參力提高勞參力當然比較主要的就是婦女朋友的這個變形工時啦大概講在這邊參考啦還有因為有一些勞工朋友跟我提過這個譬如說委託"},{"start":405.014,"end":406.976,"text":"兩人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":421.606,"end":445.704,"text":"帶草單位甚至於政府提撥的6%跟他自己提撥的6%是不是可以一起一起去委託他他可能認為說他委託的他的獲益比較大但是我知道我們政府會擔心說把他自己退休金的老本不要委託到那個私人的那個部分去以後"},{"start":446.705,"end":448.507,"text":"其中一人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":468.061,"end":484.734,"text":"所以說就算他提拨的6%跟政府的6%一起給他抄,抄到沒有破都算零的話他一個月他領幾十萬十幾萬薪水的人他的生活也安全無疑啦所以是不是我們也可以考慮說"},{"start":487.443,"end":514.41,"text":"甚至於政府提撥的6%還在勞動部這邊抄他自己提撥的6%他搞不好一個月領薪水二三十萬他提撥6%去這樣代替抄的話可能也是一種相當的金額當然他認為說他自己委外的話會議比部裡面抄的多他自己盈虧他自己負責所以這方面是否也可以考慮"},{"start":516.209,"end":521.699,"text":"反正他自己去決定嘛。他自己決定他要的話你就自己負責嘛。"},{"start":524.712,"end":548.389,"text":"謝謝委員的剛剛的意見我想這個部分我們都會去多聽聽大家的看法那的確就是說如果當然在部裡面是有保障對 那就是說我們會考慮到說畢竟不是所有自選的勞工自體的勞工他可能都是那麼高薪所以有時候他的自體的部分他才是希望有保障"},{"start":549.19,"end":569.382,"text":"所以如果說當然你說他自選之後他自擔風險我們都會擔心說像去年那種金融整個金融市場跌了兩三成勞工都很擔心所以我們會多種考量我的意思是說會去提撥給民間操作的人他領的薪水一定是很多的萬一那邊泡湯掉他領的薪水應該都還沒問題"},{"start":573.084,"end":589.97,"text":"而其實像這些高薪的他其實也可以回到市場機制去選擇商品也是一個方式那也是一種自選就他其實不一定要進到這個自體裡面來他也可以把自己本來要自體的他其實就可以去購買商品就是金融市場上的商業"},{"start":592.881,"end":594.923,"text":"三條及第五十八條條文修正草案案 案。"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}