{"error":false,"id":["149014"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149014,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149014","日期":"2023-12-13","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-10-8-26-14","會議代碼:str":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","屆":10,"會期":8,"會次":14,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2023-12-13T10:29:37+08:00","結束時間":"2023-12-13T10:39:08+08:00","影片長度":"00:09:31","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fcca7cb692a387d69c8bf67ea789b2fbab799385851b1dc2c986728e607a0322e845366a77bfd4645ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃秀芳","委員發言時間":"10:29:37 - 10:39:08","會議時間":"2023-12-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員陳明文等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。）","gazette":{"lineno":540,"blocks":[["黃委員秀芳：（10時29分）謝謝，請部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["許部長銘春：黃委員好。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長好。今天討論有關勞動退休金的問題，其實我們看到一份報告，就是在人力資源顧問的評比當中，臺灣排名第39，可能我們從上面看到確實臺灣的退休金制度是不是存在一些問題？剛剛也有很多委員特別提到有關退休金提撥的問題，我想請教因為我們最低薪資在這幾年當中一直往上調，到明年開始已經到二萬七千多，像這樣子的話，我們勞保投保薪資的上限在105年也調到4萬5,800，有沒有可能勞保投保薪資的上限會再往上調？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，我先講剛剛你講的CFA的報告，其實這個報告的評比面向很廣，因為每個國家的養老金制度不同，所以很難直接比較啦！但是因為這個不是單純評估像我們職業勞工他退休以後的退休金狀況，它評比的面向我看很廣，包括基礎年金、公共年金、私人退休金計算，還有持有房產、債務，全部都在裡面，所以我認為這個很難去做比較。但是我是認為我們國家當然一定要確保我們自己勞工退休經濟生活的安全，我們現在其實就是兩個，勞保加勞退，以目前我們工作30年，現在平均投保薪資大概在3萬7,000左右，其實退休以後所領的所得替代率大概在68%，並不會低於OECD啦！不過我覺得當然世界各國有好的制度我們都願意來參考，這是第一個。","第二個就是那個4萬5,800的天花板是不是要打開？這件事情因為會牽涉到我們現在整個勞保的財務問題，報告委員，你也知道我們勞保106年就已經開始發生逆差、缺口，所以我覺得不排除在未來整個年金改革裡面可以來討論這一題，但是沒有辦法單純現在就只針對這個問題去打開，因為這樣會牽涉到我們整個勞保財務，會更加雪上加霜。"],["黃委員秀芳：我一直想要講的就是我們勞保的投保薪資在105年提高到4萬5,800，我們的基本薪資其實一直都在往上調，那相對地投保薪資是不是也要再往上？我認為應該是這樣子才合理啦！"],["許部長銘春：對，我也認為應該是這樣，你看我們的職災保險就提高到7萬2,800了，這個已經cover到大概有九成勞工都可以適用得到，我是覺得這一題未來可能跟年改這件事情要一起討論，不然我現在只要單提高一級，就是1,500億的負擔，所以我才說這件事情要檢討，但是不是現在，就是要整體……"],["黃委員秀芳：好，所以就是要去討論啦！"],["許部長銘春：對，未來要討論啦！"],["黃委員秀芳：我覺得未來應該要去討論才合理，就是最低薪資我們都已經這樣子往上調了，所以投保薪資上限應該也要再往上。"],["許部長銘春：對，一定要的，這是未來一定要調，但是我們現在有一些考量，勞保的財務要先解決。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，剛剛也有很多委員提到我們自提6%的這個部分，是不是可以自己選擇投資的標的？我也希望是不是有這樣的一個方式，有的人他也想要透過這樣去選擇，我不知道你們有沒有去考慮？"],["許部長銘春：這個部分我們會尊重大家的意見，但是現在的狀況就是還是有些勞團比較擔心，這畢竟是退休老本，你要自擔風險這件事情，萬一有譬如像去年整個金融市場跌了兩、三成，這個對勞工都是很大的衝擊啦！當然我們再多多聽各界的意見，勞工也有專業的理財觀念之後，大家能夠更理性的來看這個問題、來討論。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，接下來我想請教有關中高齡的就業，有很多高齡或者是中高齡的民眾，其實他們也很想二度就業，找的工作可能就是一些比較簡單的工作，他們有的確實是因為經濟的壓力急需一份工作，可是他們去應徵的時候會碰到也許是年齡的關係，或者是時間有時候沒辦法配合，也許他還有長輩需要照顧，所以那個時間可能沒辦法配合。我也看到你們有提出一個針對補助地方政府成立銀髮人才服務據點的措施，我看到這個執行率好像也不是那麼好，執行率不是那麼理想，但確實地方有這樣的一個需求，我不知道未來你們執行率不是那麼好要怎麼去改進？"],["許部長銘春：對，報告委員，因為我們這些中高齡去找工作，常常會遇到一個問題，就是雇主的刻板印象啦！還有會覺得好像他年紀比較大一點，是不是體力沒辦法負擔，再來他有時候要兼顧家庭，所以現在我們這些計畫其實就是希望鼓勵雇主要進用，然後我們用怎麼樣的獎勵給他。另外我們也鼓勵雇主，其實針對這些中高齡，你可以用一些彈性工時，讓他職場工作跟家庭能夠兼顧，畢竟在缺工的年代，他還是我們的勞動力。其實中高齡、高齡者是一個很重要勞動力來源，所以我一直是希望我們的雇主可以善用我們的中高齡，其實我都說要講「壯世代」啦！以年齡來講，像我也是中高齡，45歲到64歲都中高齡啦，但是我覺得我們的體力、能力都還可以負擔，所以我覺得不要排斥這些壯世代，但是可能要給他一些工作的彈性，讓他能夠兼顧，這個我們都有一些相關的措施。"],["黃委員秀芳：所以這個據點你們未來還要補助、還要持續嗎？"],["許部長銘春：會，會繼續，我們會弄到50處。"],["黃委員秀芳：對啊！問題是執行率不是那麼好，你們怎麼去改善？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，這是剛開始啦，我們會陸續執行，因為這些事情會需要一些時間，我覺得依目前我們的推動還有努力應該會漸入佳境啦！"],["黃委員秀芳：這樣好像已經執行2年了，是不是？這個據點開始推動是去年？"],["許部長銘春：沒有，我們不是一次，我們是陸陸續續成立，因為縣市政府它願意要規劃，我們才能夠成立，所以我們是陸續成立啦！有的成立比較早，有的剛成立啊！現在一共是14處啦，我們2年內成立14處，陸陸續續還會增加，其實就會讓績效慢慢地能夠提升上來。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，有這樣的一個據點，我希望你們也要多宣傳，因為很多他們不知道，第一個，他可能直接到就業服務站嘛，當然就業服務站服務也都很好，但如果說你既然有這個據點的話，專門服務這些中高齡的……"],["許部長銘春：會，我們未來會有單一窗口，另外有一些長青中心之類的，很多壯世代去那邊活動，我們就把他連結起來，讓他們有這樣的資訊，瞭解自己其實可以再來奉獻給社會，是可以工作，又能解決我們勞動力的缺口這樣子。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，有請王婉諭王委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":392,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-26-14","speakers":["吳欣盈","吳玉琴","蘇巧慧","賴惠員","張育美","陳瑩","徐志榮","陳椒華","黃秀芳","王婉諭","林為洲","邱泰源","洪申翰","陳培瑜","楊曜","莊競程"],"page_start":343,"meetingDate":["2023-12-13"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查 一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」\n案；二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案；三、委員溫玉\n霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；四、委員陳明文\n等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案；五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工\n退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案；六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、\n第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案；七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第\n十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案；八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金\n條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案；九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第\n十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案；十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分\n條文修正草案」案；十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草\n案」案；十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正\n草案」案；十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條\n文修正草案」案；十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案；十\n五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1130201_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.072218750000001,"end":8.552843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.704093750000002,"end":13.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.075343750000002,"end":13.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.09221875,"end":25.242218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.00159375,"end":27.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.300968750000003,"end":28.735343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.887218750000002,"end":31.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":31.90784375,"end":32.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.228468750000005,"end":36.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.126593750000005,"end":40.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.81784375,"end":54.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.06034375,"end":76.59284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.87534375,"end":83.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":81.33471875000001,"end":81.72284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.54534375,"end":84.74346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.16534375,"end":89.24909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":89.18159375,"end":89.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.45159375,"end":90.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.81409375000001,"end":108.09846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.57096875,"end":109.58346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.71846875000001,"end":114.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.88221875,"end":122.15534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.05034375000001,"end":119.42159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.06284375000001,"end":120.46784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.44221875000001,"end":128.02784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.43284375000002,"end":133.83284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.83284375,"end":134.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.11971875,"end":138.77721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":138.77721875,"end":138.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.79409375,"end":138.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":138.81096875,"end":138.92909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.92909375000002,"end":138.96284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":138.96284375000002,"end":138.97971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.97971875000002,"end":142.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.21971875,"end":149.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":147.18096875,"end":147.36659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.56034375000002,"end":155.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":152.22659375,"end":152.46284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.44534375,"end":157.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.67721875,"end":158.72346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.55034375,"end":185.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":159.58409375000002,"end":160.95096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":184.39034375,"end":184.44096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":185.55471875,"end":186.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.53346875000003,"end":187.96784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.96784375000001,"end":188.20409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.54159375,"end":188.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.57534375,"end":205.97346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.08346875,"end":205.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.97346875000002,"end":210.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.09159375000002,"end":207.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.34409375,"end":226.34159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":226.22346875000002,"end":226.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.61159375000003,"end":231.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":231.91034375,"end":232.48409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.90159375000002,"end":238.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":234.37409375000001,"end":234.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.88034375,"end":234.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":234.96471875,"end":235.09971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.09971875000002,"end":236.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.47909375,"end":250.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.70659375000002,"end":241.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEA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部長好 今天討論這個有關這個勞動退休金的問題那我想請教就是說其實我們看到一份報告就是說我們這個人力資源顧問有關在那個評比台灣的這個評比當中排名第39那這個排名第39可能我們從上面看到就是說確實台灣的這個退休金制度是不是存在一些問題"},{"start":45.47,"end":64.963,"text":"議員提到有關退休金提撥的問題我想請教因為我們最低薪資在這幾年當中已經一直往上跳到明年開始已經到兩萬七千多像這樣子的話我們勞保的投保薪資的上限在105年"},{"start":66.184,"end":70.508,"text":"及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十七條之一"},{"start":91.877,"end":120.205,"text":"你很難直接比較啦很難直接比較但是因為這個不是單純評估說像我們這種我們的職業勞工他退休以後的那個退休金的狀況他評比的面向我看很廣包括基礎年金公共年金私人兌現金計算還有持有房產債務全部都在裡面所以我認為說這個很難去做比較但是呢我是認為說我們國家當然一定要確保我們自己勞工的退休經濟生活的安全那我們現在其實就是兩個嘛"},{"start":120.945,"end":136.885,"text":"老保加勞退。老保加勞退,我們工作三十年,現在平均投保薪資大概在三萬七左右。退休以後所領的所得替代率"},{"start":137.385,"end":155.136,"text":"大概在百分之六十八並不會低於OECD不過我覺得當然世界各國有好的制度我們都願意來參考第二個就是說那個四萬五千八天花板是不是要打開那這件事情因為會牽涉到我們現在整個"},{"start":156.496,"end":160.017,"text":"三、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":187.143,"end":204.401,"text":"其實我一直想要講的就是說其實我們的這個勞保的這個投保薪資在105年提高到這個四萬五千八嘛那其實我們的基本薪資其實一直都在往上調那是不是也要相對的這個投保薪資是不是也要再往上"},{"start":205.501,"end":230.916,"text":"這是我認為應該是這樣子才合理啊我也認為應該是這樣你看我們的紙災保險災保我就提到七萬兩千八了這個已經cover到大概有八成的勞工九成勞工都可以適用得到但未來我是覺得這一題可能未來就是可能跟年改這件事情要一起討論啊不然我現在我只要單提高一級我就是一千五百億的負擔啊"},{"start":234.216,"end":237.218,"text":"三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第10屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員"},{"start":257.247,"end":259.608,"text":"其中一人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":284.683,"end":303.162,"text":"對這個部分我們會尊重大家的意見但是就是說現在的狀況就是說還是有些老團比較擔心的就是說這畢竟是退休老本那你要自擔風險這件事情萬一有譬如說像去年金融"},{"start":304.125,"end":308.888,"text":"及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十七條之一"},{"start":327.259,"end":353.056,"text":"其中有很多高齡或中高齡的民眾,其實他們也很想在二度就業。早的工作可能就是一些比較簡單的工作,有的他們也急需一份工作,有的確實是因為經濟的壓力,急需一份工作。可是他們去應徵的時候可能都會碰到年齡的關係,或者是時間有時候沒辦法配合。"},{"start":357.339,"end":373.541,"text":"其他還有長輩需要照顧所以那個時間可能沒辦法配合那我也看到就是說你們有提出一個就是針對這個補助地方政府成立銀髮人才服務據點的這個措施那我看到這個執行率好像也不是那麼好"},{"start":374.582,"end":376.803,"text":"兩人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條之一"},{"start":392.159,"end":393.701,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十七條之一"},{"start":405.472,"end":406.934,"text":"第二十五條及第五十八條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":424.172,"end":426.714,"text":"三、委員謝衣鳯等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":443.946,"end":445.927,"text":"三、委員謝衣鳯等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":465.235,"end":490.442,"text":"還要繼續持續嗎?會繼續,我們會弄到50處。對啊,問題是執行率不是那麼好,你們怎麼去改善?因為報告委也是剛開始啦,就是我們會陸續的去,因為有些這件事情就是會要需要一些時間,我覺得依目前我們的推動還有我們的努力應該會進入加進啦,進入加進。這樣好像已經執行兩年了欸,是不是?"},{"start":490.742,"end":494.484,"text":"三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":514.132,"end":531.578,"text":"兩年內目前是14處了,那陸陸續續還會增加,那我們其實就會讓績效慢慢的把它能夠提升上來。好,那有這樣的一個據點我希望你們也要多宣傳,因為很多他們不知道可能也是"},{"start":532.538,"end":546.383,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第10屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16"},{"start":559.868,"end":562.314,"text":"其中一人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}