{"error":false,"id":["149016"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149016,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149016","日期":"2023-12-13","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-10-8-26-14","會議代碼:str":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","屆":10,"會期":8,"會次":14,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2023-12-13T10:50:21+08:00","結束時間":"2023-12-13T11:01:17+08:00","影片長度":"00:10:56","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fcca7cb692a387d6c2fa5df3bc615cbdab799385851b1dc2c986728e607a03224763dcd5b5be02255ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林為洲","委員發言時間":"10:50:21 - 11:01:17","會議時間":"2023-12-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員陳明文等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。）","gazette":{"lineno":604,"blocks":[["林委員為洲：（10時50分）謝謝召委，請部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["許部長銘春：林委員好。"],["林委員為洲：今天我們要審查勞工退休金條例，其中有七個案子要推動新制勞工退休金自選投資。請問部長，你覺得勞工退休金投資最重要的目的是什麼？賺錢？還是獲利，好讓勞工退休金將來可以增加更多？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，投資的第一個一定要安全保本……"],["林委員為洲：安全更重要。"],["許部長銘春：然後穩健，當然想自選就是希望能夠多賺一點投資收益，這些都是自選所希望達到的。"],["林委員為洲：其他的退休金基金有沒有自選制度？比如說公教人員……"],["許部長銘春：私校退撫。"],["林委員為洲：私校退撫？"],["許部長銘春：私校退撫及公務員退撫新制……"],["林委員為洲：都有自選？"],["許部長銘春：但是規模很小。我記得私校退撫才700億左右而已，至於勞退現在應該有3兆……"],["林委員為洲：是……"],["許部長銘春：4.9兆。"],["林委員為洲：退休金最主要的目的，以我個人的理解，就是平常工作的時候有收入，等到退休之後沒有收入了，等於在平常儲備了一些將來……"],["許部長銘春：就是個儲蓄……"],["林委員為洲：養老本，養老的本。因為那時候你可能沒有辦法工作，沒有其他收入，所以才希望有這樣的制度可以養老，但如果捨本逐末，把它拿來預支當作投資工具，萬一輸掉的話，就連養老本都沒了，這樣就跟我們設定退休金的目的不太一樣。你可以拿現在多餘的收入、生活之外的錢去投資增加收入，這個OK，因為生活有多餘；但退休金是將來沒有辦法工作了，沒有其他收入了，要靠退休金養老，不造成其他家人的負擔、國家的負擔。一旦捨本逐末，我認為捨本逐末去預支將來的退休金，然後來操作以賺取更多的利潤，這有一點違背。以我的立場，我是這樣看待，就是你剛剛講的，它有風險，而不是完全沒風險，否則拿來增加收益的話當然好，對不對？但這是有風險的，可能會輸，所以針對這次要訂定自選條例的修法……"],["許部長銘春：這幾年有很多聲音希望能夠自提自選，也就是針對自提部分能夠自選，但我們認為勞退其實是屬於社會保險的角色……"],["林委員為洲：是啊，當然。"],["許部長銘春：就像剛剛委員講的，這是退休之後經濟生活安全的依靠……"],["林委員為洲：當然。"],["許部長銘春：自提自選就一定要自擔風險，畢竟是他自選，所以這一塊我們會很擔心。雖然勞工說願意自擔風險，但是當你面對像去年金融市場整個股債都下跌的情況下，勞工承受得了嗎？"],["林委員為洲：對，是啊！"],["許部長銘春：所以我們才說還是要多多考量，畢竟勞退還是社會保險的角色，它不是商業保險……"],["林委員為洲：當然。"],["許部長銘春：比較屬於純投資的事情。"],["林委員為洲：當然，它不是理財投資！"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["林委員為洲：退休金不是撥了一筆錢讓你理財投資，當初訂定的目的不是這樣！"],["許部長銘春：至於政府的投資，不管怎麼樣，一定會保證收益……"],["林委員為洲：是。"],["許部長銘春：到最後再怎麼樣，一定是政府……"],["林委員為洲：會承擔。"],["許部長銘春：會承擔，而且不低於2年期銀行定存利率的獲利給你，事實上，這幾年的投資，我們平均獲益大概是4.6%左右啦，所以對勞工來講，其實是還不錯。但我是比較擔心，如果自選之後，雖然現在是說自擔風險，大家都會說「沒關係，我可以自擔風險」，但是當真的萬一發生這個……"],["林委員為洲：又怪你們了。"],["許部長銘春：對，他們會說「當初都是政府的草案，然後立法院立法委員通過的」……"],["林委員為洲：修法開放。"],["許部長銘春：或說「當初的制度是你們幫我決定的」，我是覺得勞工還是比較辛苦的一群，有時候這件事情我會覺得說，雖然我們抱持著開放的態度，但還是要多聽各界的聲音啦。"],["林委員為洲：所以針對這個修法，我覺得應該要慎重、慎重，然後要多聽一些意見，甚至召開公聽會等等，然後也要比較其他的退撫基金目前的投資狀況，把他們的制度拿來互相做比較，看看有沒有改善的辦法，就是說，無非是想要增加投資的效益，讓大家到最後的退休金可以多一點，對不對？不然去投資做什麼，就是希望有效益嘛，有額外的投資效益。如果不用這種方式，然後去改善原來的制度，讓它的投資效益更能夠顯現或提高，而且確保那個風險，因為剛剛部長也講了，如果照現在的制度，政府是會擔當一定的保證收益的角色，這個安全性已經保障了，但是如何讓它有更高的收益，恐怕是更好的、更穩健的辦法。"],["許部長銘春：對，我們會努力啦。"],["林委員為洲：好，這個問題我們之後還會繼續討論啦，我想今天可能也不會很快的就進入逐條啦。","再來，我再請教關於開放服務業外勞的狀況，目前開放服務業外勞有什麼進度嗎？服務業的部分。"],["許部長銘春：目前還沒有，報告委員，因為之前那個……"],["林委員為洲：政策研擬到什麼階段了？"],["許部長銘春：沒有，這個部分就是觀光署有送評估報告過來，但是我們針對各界所質疑的，第一個，這個薪資條件是不是合理，還有就是是不是有挑工的問題，以及會不會衝擊到中高齡婦女就業等等問題。他們認為它的評估報告還有不足，我們還在等它的補充。另外，就是委員會這邊有要求我們，洪申翰委員有要求我們，要在12月底之前，要就整個開放，如果要開放服務業移工，對我們的族群、對我們的性別就業的影響評估。這個部分我們大概是這樣，目前還沒有說什麼時候要來討論，但是我們會等觀光署把它的補充評估報告送來，併同我們勞動部所做的這些就業影響評估報告，我們再來請專家開會做檢視，檢視之後我們才會適時地去提到我們的政策小組來評估、來討論。"],["林委員為洲：今天早上我們看到那個新聞，就是說擁有241間房間的嘉義觀止飯店，業者徵工務人員，工務技工、修繕工程師，俗稱工務技工，要會修水電，而且最好具有消防執照，但是他給的薪水是多少呢？"],["許部長銘春：2萬6,000。"],["林委員為洲：2萬6,000。"],["許部長銘春：這個新聞我有看到，非常不合理啦，非常不合理！"],["林委員為洲：他有執照耶，這樣才2萬6,000而已。"],["許部長銘春：是啊。"],["林委員為洲：你覺得這樣合理嗎？"],["許部長銘春：非常不合理。"],["林委員為洲：這樣請得到人嗎？所以他請不到人嘛！他們如果希望開放外勞進口，就是開放移工進來，當然移工願意接受這個薪資，但本勞大概很難接受這樣的薪資，所以這個將來都會有這樣的衝突。一旦開放之後，那個行業就會變成都是外籍移工，本勞就進不去了，大家要想像一下，因為2萬6就請得到了，2萬6,400啊，我請到技工耶，還會修水電耶，本勞沒有人會做啦，老實講，那個行業開放了，將來就統統是外勞了！我現在先假設說如果連計程車都開放，我看以後開計程車的統統都是外勞，還只要基本薪資；外送員如果開放了，我看以後外送也統統都是外勞在做，就是移工在做啦，本國勞工怎麼辦？所以這個都是要整體去考量啦。"],["許部長銘春：對，沒錯。"],["林委員為洲：我們看到很多行業都是開放了外勞之後，本勞就很難進入那個行業，這個會衍生其他問題啦。當然對雇主來講，他會有外勞的選擇、外籍移工的選擇，但是以勞工的角度來看的話，很多領域就變成本勞進不去了，所以這個都要整體考量啦！"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["林委員為洲：包括你們現在在研擬的所謂引進印度移工，這個大家都要好好的來討論，它衍生的一些效應都要一併的考慮。"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["林委員為洲：好，謝謝。"],["許部長銘春：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林委員。請邱泰源委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":392,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-26-14","speakers":["吳欣盈","吳玉琴","蘇巧慧","賴惠員","張育美","陳瑩","徐志榮","陳椒華","黃秀芳","王婉諭","林為洲","邱泰源","洪申翰","陳培瑜","楊曜","莊競程"],"page_start":343,"meetingDate":["2023-12-13"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查 一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」\n案；二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案；三、委員溫玉\n霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；四、委員陳明文\n等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案；五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工\n退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案；六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、\n第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案；七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第\n十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案；八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金\n條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案；九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第\n十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案；十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分\n條文修正草案」案；十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草\n案」案；十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正\n草案」案；十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條\n文修正草案」案；十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案；十\n五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1130201_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.915968750000001,"end":8.637218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.94096875,"end":9.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.10471875,"end":16.011593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.24784375,"end":20.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.512843750000002,"end":22.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.191593750000003,"end":34.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.06346875,"end":39.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.64471875,"end":42.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.21409375,"end":46.656593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.01096875,"end":52.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.517218750000005,"end":49.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.00596875,"end":54.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.862218750000004,"end":59.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.24596875,"end":55.971593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.127218750000004,"end":59.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.36346875,"end":65.91096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.38346875,"end":69.13409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.53909375,"end":72.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.99846875,"end":73.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.85909375,"end":74.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.83784375,"end":75.81659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.85471875,"end":74.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.28909375,"end":77.26784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.28471875000001,"end":78.24659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.09471875,"end":80.65971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.92971875,"end":81.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.09846875000001,"end":81.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.17846875000001,"end":82.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.19534375,"end":82.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.43159375,"end":82.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.88721875,"end":85.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.12346875,"end":84.15284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.82784375,"end":85.11471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.00909375,"end":87.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.75971875,"end":91.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.95784375000001,"end":90.39659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.33721875,"end":94.37909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.73346875,"end":95.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.66159375000001,"end":97.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.23909375000001,"end":100.89284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.51284375,"end":106.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.23784375000001,"end":116.72159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.10971875000001,"end":118.57784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.08846875,"end":130.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.65596875,"end":132.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.66846875000002,"end":149.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.57721875000001,"end":167.93721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.97096875,"end":167.98784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.37596875,"end":173.43846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.01221875000002,"end":183.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.76159375,"end":199.20659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.70159375,"end":191.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.19096875000002,"end":191.24159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.29221875000002,"end":191.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.30346875,"end":206.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.84346875,"end":204.26909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.94409375,"end":206.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.64846875,"end":225.80159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.94596875000002,"end":220.85721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.85659375,"end":225.34596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.12221875,"end":238.01909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.54221875000002,"end":242.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.36034375000003,"end":241.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.9253437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上我們看到那個新聞就是說嘉義關子這個飯店業者兩百四十一間房間徵公務"},{"start":507.858,"end":515.504,"text":"其中一人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條條文修正草案：立法院第10屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會"},{"start":524.757,"end":525.138,"text":"兩萬六兩萬六這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這"},{"start":545.42,"end":572.786,"text":"他們如果希望說開放外勞進口就移工讓他進來當然他們願意移工願意接受這個薪資本勞大概很難接受這樣的薪資所以這個將來都會有這樣的衝突一旦開放之後那個行業就會變成都是移工外籍移工本勞就進不去"},{"start":573.973,"end":601.835,"text":"大家想像一下,兩萬六我就請得到,兩萬六千四我請到技工,還有修水電,本來沒有人會做啦,老實講。那個行業開放了,那就將來通通是外勞了。假設,我現在先假設說,如果連計程車開放,我看以後通通計程車都是外勞,那只要基本薪資。外送員如果開放了,他外送我看以後通通是外勞在做。"},{"start":603.257,"end":616.95,"text":"就移工在座了本國勞工怎麼辦所以這個都是要整體去考量我們看到很多的行業都是開放了外勞之後"},{"start":617.642,"end":623.026,"text":"立法院第10會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會"},{"start":637.529,"end":650.838,"text":"所以這個都要整體考量包括你們現在在研擬的所謂引進印度移工這個都要好好的大家來討論他衍生的一些效應都要一併的考慮好謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}