{"error":false,"id":["149020"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149020,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149020","日期":"2023-12-13","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-10-8-26-14","會議代碼:str":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","屆":10,"會期":8,"會次":14,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2023-12-13T11:34:16+08:00","結束時間":"2023-12-13T11:43:39+08:00","影片長度":"00:09:23","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fcca7cb692a387d65f283f6c67b2e0e5ab799385851b1dc2c986728e607a03226e357ca2c70d75735ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊曜","委員發言時間":"11:34:16 - 11:43:39","會議時間":"2023-12-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員陳明文等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。）","gazette":{"lineno":789,"blocks":[["楊委員曜：（11時34分）謝謝主席，主席，我請一下許部長。"],["主席：好，有請部長。"],["許部長銘春：楊委員好。"],["楊委員曜：部長好，我們今天討論勞工退休金條例，我在這邊有一個問題想要請問你個人的看法，大概有一部分人，因為現在勞工自提的退休金是不可以自選操作標的。"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["楊委員曜：部長在這個議題上，你的看法是覺得可以還是不可以？你比較傾向主張哪一個？現在是不行嘛？"],["許部長銘春：現在是不行……"],["楊委員曜：像私校退撫基金它大概已經可以了嘛？"],["許部長銘春：私校退撫是有……"],["楊委員曜：對，那勞工退休金有關勞工自提的部分，部長個人的看法是覺得？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，如果是個人的看法，因為我覺得退休金是勞工老年退休生活的一個保障，我們都希望它是完整的、不會有風險的，然後能夠穩健的獲利，不會因為有風險而導致他的退休金最後可能會完全受到損害，所以在這種情況下，我其實會……因為如果是自選的話，他必須自擔風險，自提的部分如果自選，他必須自擔風險，我是會比較擔心勞工這一部分如果當遇到像去年股債同時下跌兩、三成的時候，其實對勞工的損害是滿大的。所以在這種情況下，我認為這個部分我目前都會比較保守一點啦！"],["楊委員曜：部長的看法倒是跟我一致，因為我覺得勞工自提退休金，看起來日後是必須要來填補勞保年金的給付不足，共同建構勞工退休以後的生活保障，可是這又遇到一個問題，就是自提的部分其實是屬於他的財產，對不對？限制勞工自行選擇投資標的，這個本身就跟財產所有有衝突。","第二個，最重要的就是剛剛部長講的如何穩健獲利，因為自提的退休金假如一直放著，獲利不足，其實它根本趕不上通貨膨脹，我相信這是個很大的問題，特別是在勞保年金給付沒有辦法增加的情況下，我個人一直很關注勞退的部分，所以剛剛部長有講到穩健獲利，我們怎麼讓它穩健獲利？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，當然這幾年勞動基金的投資收益都還不錯，平均大概都有4.6。"],["楊委員曜：4.6%。"],["許部長銘春：對，4.6%，我們也就是慎選投資標的，不管是自操或委外，其實在整個績效上都有做一些要求，就是務必要讓我們勞工的老本能夠有一個好的收益，這個部分我們當然會持續來努力。"],["楊委員曜：因為是委由你們來操作，有最低獲利擔保，對不對？就是兩年的定期……"],["許部長銘春：有，報告委員，現在不管固提或自提，一定是保證獲利的，最少都有銀行2年定存利率的獲利保證，所以就是……現在當然是因為政府的限制，自提的部分沒有辦法去自選，但是我同時也保證他一定是獲利啦，就不會讓他的退休金短少。"],["楊委員曜：對，這個當然還需要做更深的研究跟廣泛的討論啦！因為我剛剛講過了，自提的部分其實還是勞工自己的錢嘛！"],["許部長銘春：所以我們勞動部態度上也是持開放的態度，傾聽各界的意見，但是我們基本上還是要站在保護勞工的立場。"],["楊委員曜：對，因為這個跟勞保給付其實是有相關聯的。","接下來，因為這次可能是本屆最後一次勞動部到委員會來，所以我還是必須要講一些數據，我一直覺得廣大勞工退休生活的保障其實是政府的責任，且再過幾年，問題馬上就會出現，我也知道改革的困難，因為勞工本來收入就低，要提高保費的話，阻力也大，而保費不增加，要怎麼提高、健全整個機制？這是政府要非常有智慧去面對，並且有勇氣去解決的。","我大概提供幾個數字給部長，就知道勞保年金的問題有多嚴重，像在澎湖這樣相對一般受薪階級薪資沒有那麼高的地方，其實我對於勞工的退休生活還滿憂心的。2022年勞工整體領到的給付大概是1萬8,294元，同一年臺北市最低生活費已經到了1萬8,682元，也就是說，勞工平均可以得到的年金給付，已經低於臺北市的最低生活費了，而且這種情況會隨著通貨膨脹越來越嚴重，有六成勞工年金給付低於2萬元。在這種情況下，我們還每天擔心勞保基金什麼時候會破產，這才是最大的問題。","部長，我想我在這一屆已經沒有能力也沒有機會可以幫廣大的勞工把這個問題處理好，但我還是希望至少將政府負擔最終給付責任的條文儘速入法，其實就算沒入法，還是長年在撥補，政府不大可能放任讓勞保倒；但入法的好處就是可以安定超過1,000萬勞工的心，讓他在工作時不用擔心退休後日子要怎麼過，好不好？"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["楊委員曜：部長，我們一起努力。"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["楊委員曜：好，謝謝部長、謝謝主席。"],["許部長銘春：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝楊委員。","本日會議登記質詢委員已發言完畢。委員楊曜所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":392,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-26-14","speakers":["吳欣盈","吳玉琴","蘇巧慧","賴惠員","張育美","陳瑩","徐志榮","陳椒華","黃秀芳","王婉諭","林為洲","邱泰源","洪申翰","陳培瑜","楊曜","莊競程"],"page_start":343,"meetingDate":["2023-12-13"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查 一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」\n案；二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案；三、委員溫玉\n霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；四、委員陳明文\n等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案；五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工\n退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案；六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、\n第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案；七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第\n十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案；八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金\n條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案；九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第\n十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案；十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分\n條文修正草案」案；十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草\n案」案；十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正\n草案」案；十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條\n文修正草案」案；十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案；十\n五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1130201_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.81971875,"end":3.8109687500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.40159375,"end":5.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.67909375,"end":11.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.282218750000002,"end":14.290343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.594093750000003,"end":16.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.93971875,"end":24.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.292843750000003,"end":29.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.781593750000003,"end":44.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.32909375,"end":38.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.13784375,"end":45.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.15471875,"end":45.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.32346875,"end":47.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.10784375,"end":48.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.81659375,"end":50.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.900968750000004,"end":49.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.21721875,"end":51.87096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.790968750000005,"end":53.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.18284375,"end":58.148468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.148468750000006,"end":60.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.182218750000004,"end":58.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.45221875,"end":66.99096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.83909375,"end":67.19346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.54784375,"end":70.78784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.54721875,"end":76.55909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.40284375,"end":79.36034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.00159375,"end":80.35596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.46971875,"end":82.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.87034375,"end":84.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.38909375,"end":86.93721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.37596875,"end":88.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.91159375000001,"end":90.59909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.86909375,"end":92.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.75909375,"end":94.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.29034375,"end":100.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.02784375,"end":103.13721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.54221875,"end":105.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.66846875,"end":108.30096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.53721875000001,"end":109.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.25846875,"end":113.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.97096875000001,"end":115.43909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.13096875000001,"end":119.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.21471875,"end":128.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.61846875,"end":132.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.76096875000002,"end":137.62971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.91659375,"end":139.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.31284375,"end":144.00846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.66659375,"end":147.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.41721875000002,"end":148.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.58159375,"end":154.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.89346875,"end":151.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.74534375000002,"end":154.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.63971875000001,"end":156.20909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.76596875,"end":161.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.99721875,"end":164.30909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.58784375000002,"end":162.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.74784375000002,"end":165.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.97096875,"end":168.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.64596875,"end":173.20221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.06284375,"end":174.85596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.32846875,"end":177.70784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.23096875000002,"end":180.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.15034375000002,"end":181.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.45409375,"end":187.10721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.10284375,"end":190.60034375},{"speaker":"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