{"error":false,"id":["149077"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149077,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149077","日期":"2024-01-09","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"臨時會院會-10-8-1-1","會議代碼:str":"第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議","屆":10,"會期":8,"會次":1,"臨時會會次":1,"種類":"院會","標題":"立法院第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-01-09T09:28:42+08:00","結束時間":"2024-01-09T09:44:30+08:00","影片長度":"00:15:48","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7594f10b9bbee6890dde41a0df76e5d5826b98f121effac12be4303bcf228b50c8de6a88177388315ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱顯智","委員發言時間":"09:28:42 - 09:44:30","會議時間":"2024-01-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議（事由：行政院院長提出「是否公布高端合約？是否圖利廠商及危害全民健康權益？」等相關事宜專案報告並備質詢）","gazette":{"lineno":44,"blocks":[["邱委員顯智：（9時29分）謝謝院長，我想請陳院長。"],["主席：陳院長，請。"],["陳院長建仁：邱委員好。"],["邱委員顯智：院長早。院長，剛剛聽您的報告，其中有一段針對高端疫苗合約公開的部分，你有提到事實上COVID-19疫苗完整合約不公開並非針對臺灣，而是全球各國皆然，還說包括BNT、莫德納、AZ、Novavax都有設這個保密條款，因為這個保密條款，所以沒辦法公開。","現在我想給你看一下，這張投影片的左上角有4個國家的語言，還有一個國徽，請問院長，你知道這是哪個國家嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：瑞士。"],["邱委員顯智：因為院長是公衛專家，應該非常清楚。這就是瑞士採購疫苗的所有合約，像這個例子是莫德納，通通都放在這一個網站上，一目瞭然，一點下去就看到。不只是瑞士，院長，你其實非常清楚，像歐盟採購疫苗的合約，不管是哪個廠牌的，全部也都公開在網路上，有的連MOU，然後也不只是一份合約，從MOU到正式簽約，到後續的修正，乃至於價錢，像AZ2.9歐元也放在這個上面。所以我說這整個疫苗採購的流程、法律文件，院長，這絕對不是像你們在第八頁寫的這樣，感覺好像全世界都沒有公開採購疫苗，現在是一個網路的時代、全球化的時代，全世界的國家，當然大部分的國家有可能沒有公開。"],["陳院長建仁：對啊！"],["邱委員顯智：但是像瑞士、像歐盟……"],["陳院長建仁：大部分國家沒有公開，你講對啦。"],["邱委員顯智：不是啦，院長，你在比的那一些國家，難道我們要跟那一些不公開的國家比嗎？那些不公開的國家，問題多嚴重？"],["陳院長建仁：絕大部分的國家都不公開。"],["邱委員顯智：那我必須要講，你看不管是瑞士也好，不管是歐盟也好，乃至於這些歐洲的國家，從頭到尾，從簽約MOU到後面的修正文件，乃至契約，都是大大方方公開。我真的必須要問，到底有什麼理由我們的政府做不到？高端疫苗採購的合約為什麼到現在還看不到？院長。"],["陳院長建仁：我想很簡單，我剛才已經說明得很清楚，世界上絕大部分的國家，不是你講的這一、兩個少數的國家，在採購疫苗的時候都有簽訂所謂的保密條款，那在保密條款之下，也不是只有我們對高端是這樣，對於AZ、莫德納、Novavax跟BNT都是這樣簽的啦。你看看在你剛才講的這些其他國家，也都是這樣簽訂，最主要的一個理由就是牽涉到商業機密，而且也牽涉到價格，你也曉得疫苗的價格會因為它供應的時間是在什麼時段，還有供應的量、供應的情形有所不同。"],["邱委員顯智：院長，我必須要講……"],["陳院長建仁：所以我們就有簽訂了保密的協定。"],["邱委員顯智：這個高端的價格早就已經講出來了嘛。"],["陳院長建仁：這是高端自己講出來的。"],["邱委員顯智：對啊！所以其他契約的必要之點有哪一些是要保密的？好啦！如果你認為要保密的，你可以去做一些處理嘛！譬如你在這邊故意寫完整合約不公開，對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["邱委員顯智：好啊！那你完整合約不公開，你可以公開你認為有保密需要的啊！對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：有啊！"],["邱委員顯智：去做一些處理啊！那你現在不是，現在是除了這個很基礎的契約大家看不到之外，即便你認為有保密，你把它處理掉……"],["陳院長建仁：我們政府的立場……"],["邱委員顯智：那從前面到後面的文件通通都沒有，而且院長……"],["陳院長建仁：我們政府的立場也是要公開，也是主張公開，但是需要雙方同意。"],["邱委員顯智：賴清德副總統已經講得非常清楚了，人民有知的權利啊！"],["陳院長建仁：是，我同意。"],["邱委員顯智：這個疫苗採購不是一塊、兩塊欸！不是一萬塊、兩萬塊欸！"],["陳院長建仁：沒錯。"],["邱委員顯智：是這麼貴的一個東西，那人民的血汗錢，人民有知的權利，應該要公開高端疫苗的合約嘛！如果你認為有哪一個部分是非得要保密不可的，你也可以去做相應的處理，就像其他的國家一樣嘛！其他的國家公開的時候，他也去做處理啦！那沒有道理……"],["陳院長建仁：其他的公開要處理，你答對了。"],["邱委員顯智：到現在已經這麼久了，還連一個影子都看不到！"],["陳院長建仁：因為在保密協定的條款規範之下，我們如果要公開需要得到雙方的同意，我們也主張應該要公開，但是這個公開需要雙方的合議，所以我們政府也努力來跟高端公司協商，希望它也能夠來公布。"],["邱委員顯智：那你要跟高端協商嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["邱委員顯智：那請教院長，高端的合約到底何時會公開，請院長給我一個具體的時間點。"],["陳院長建仁：高端何時會公開的話，高端它有內部的……"],["邱委員顯智：何時啦？"],["陳院長建仁：內部的程序。這個內部的程序，他們也許需要經過董事會的討論，所以我們沒有……"],["邱委員顯智：董事會什麼時候要開？院長。"],["陳院長建仁：需要看對方來確定。那最重要的一件事情，我想可能委員你也很清楚，在雙方如果能夠達到協議的這個情況下，我們當然是希望他們越早公開越好。"],["邱委員顯智：院長完全無法理解啦！我就講了，你可以去比較看看，其他的國家放在網站上面這麼清楚的事情，竟然……"],["陳院長建仁：大部分的……"],["邱委員顯智：到現在已經過了這麼久……"],["陳院長建仁：只有少數的國家這樣做。"],["邱委員顯智：還在董事會。那它有開董事會嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：他們……"],["邱委員顯智：有嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：現在我們發函給他們……"],["邱委員顯智：你們有去看嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：請他們能夠給我們最好的答復。"],["邱委員顯智：所以也沒辦法有一個時間點嘛？今天院長的答復就是說也沒辦法有一個時間點，對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：這個需要雙方得到同意。"],["邱委員顯智：那如果是不同意的話，不就永遠都不公開？"],["陳院長建仁：如果有這樣的一個情況發生的時候，那我們當然就需要再考慮說它不公開的時候……"],["邱委員顯智：那你要怎麼辦？"],["陳院長建仁：對，在這個情況……"],["邱委員顯智：對啊！"],["陳院長建仁：很重要的，你剛才講的相關部分要遮蔽等等，這個在大院的調閱小組調查的時候，我們就有這樣的資訊公開……"],["邱委員顯智：院長，這樣講真的……"],["陳院長建仁：而且大院已經開過二十幾次會議……"],["邱委員顯智：臺灣社會真的聽不下去。"],["陳院長建仁：也都看過這個資料了。"],["邱委員顯智：真的聽不下去啦！"],["陳院長建仁：你就是立法院已經開過調閱小組的會議，也看過這些資料，就像你說的就是有遮蔽的部分就遮蔽。已經看過了……"],["邱委員顯智：賴副總統就講了嘛！人民有知的權利啊！對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：我也同意，然後我們政府也同意，但是政府需要講求誠信……"],["邱委員顯智：你今天又告訴大家，兩手一攤說要雙方協商、要董事會同意。"],["陳院長建仁：委員你是法律專家，你要一個政府講……"],["邱委員顯智：萬一它董事會不同意的時候……"],["陳院長建仁：做不誠信的事情嗎？"],["邱委員顯智：那你也根本就沒有想要去處理這個問題嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：誠信是最重要的，我們政府簽約的嘛！我剛才已經講過，如果我們今天因為這樣而毀掉了政府的誠信，未來政府要採購任何的藥物跟疫苗都可能會被拒絕，這個對國人的健康是會有影響的啦！所以你是……"],["邱委員顯智：你講這個大家聽不下去，那其他……"],["陳院長建仁：你是法律專家，你也知道嘛！"],["邱委員顯智：其他一點下去就可以一目瞭然看到契約、合約的國家，難道它不會影響未來的採購嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：但這個一目瞭然是有一些遮蔽的部分啦！"],["邱委員顯智：講得聽不下去耶！"],["陳院長建仁：我覺得，你是律師，你很清楚啦！"],["邱委員顯智：那我來請教你……"],["陳院長建仁：這個契約簽了以後，我們是不是要互相信守、雙方要信守契約？政府要不要維持政府的誠信？當然要啊！"],["邱委員顯智：院長，那我想請教，就是高端的採購有沒有合法地落實決標的公告？它有沒有一個決標公告，你知道嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：這個當然我們都是依法來辦理啦！"],["邱委員顯智：依法來辦理的話，依照政府採購法第一百零五條第一項第二款，以及這後面相關細則的規定的話，基本上應該是要有一個決標的公告。那我其實非常清楚地跟院長講……"],["陳院長建仁：剛才講過，我們有一個緊急採購的辦法先公布了。"],["邱委員顯智：緊急採……"],["陳院長建仁：我們是按照這個緊急採購的辦法來進行。"],["邱委員顯智：好，但是院長，即便是緊急採購，還是要做決標公告啊！你要有一個決標公告說你給這個廠商嘛！然後這個決標公告上面會有很多的資訊，而這個資訊包括，現在大家所爭議的，就是很多契約上面的內容……"],["陳院長建仁：我們有決標公告。"],["邱委員顯智：沒有，因為你沒有這個決標公告，我很明確地跟你講，因為你沒有這個決標公告，所以現在問題來了。"],["陳院長建仁：我們有決標公告。"],["邱委員顯智：你有決標公告？"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["邱委員顯智：你有做，你確定嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：是，我們確定有決標公告。"],["邱委員顯智：好，沒關係，這個會後我們再來確認。"],["陳院長建仁：所以你這樣講的就不對啦！你就說假消息啊……"],["邱委員顯智：不是，會非常清楚。"],["陳院長建仁：你就用假消息來打擊政府。"],["邱委員顯智：不是假消息，院長，你沒有做……"],["陳院長建仁：有決標公告……"],["邱委員顯智：你沒有做決標公告。"],["陳院長建仁：但是我們遮蔽了價格，我想不要用這一些似是而非的理由來打擊政府為了要保障人民健康所做的這一些決標的公告。我們已經有公告，而且有遮蔽價格……"],["邱委員顯智：院長，我現在在告訴你……"],["陳院長建仁：所以我剛才講的就是很對的……"],["邱委員顯智：你現在就是因為沒有做決標公告……"],["陳院長建仁：有決標公告。"],["邱委員顯智：你才會衍生出後面這些問題。"],["陳院長建仁：有決標公告。你現在還在講錯的訊息啊！"],["邱委員顯智：不是錯的訊息。"],["陳院長建仁：是錯的訊息。"],["邱委員顯智：因為你認為是緊急採購……"],["陳院長建仁：我想你們要講務實、你們講理性、你們講科學……"],["邱委員顯智：所以不需要決標公告嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：你完全反科學、不理性，也不務實啊！"],["邱委員顯智：沒有，院長……"],["陳院長建仁：我跟你講就有，我說有，你說沒有。"],["邱委員顯智：不需要、不需要，好，我們不需要再爭這個。"],["陳院長建仁：不，那你講的就不對嘛！"],["邱委員顯智：沒關係，這個是大家、社會可以來檢驗的，有或沒有……"],["陳院長建仁：對啊！我講的就是這樣。"],["邱委員顯智：我們不需要在這裡爭，那我是要……"],["陳院長建仁：所以你……有公告，你承認有公告嘛！"],["邱委員顯智：那我現在告訴你……"],["陳院長建仁：你承認有公告了，對不對？"],["邱委員顯智：你沒有公告啊！"],["陳院長建仁：有啊，有公告啊！"],["邱委員顯智：衛福部沒有公告啊！"],["陳院長建仁：有公告啊！你這樣就是在講假的、錯的消息啊！"],["邱委員顯智：你就是認為有決標、你認為說是緊急採購嘛！對不對？然後……"],["陳院長建仁：有公告、有決標公告！"],["邱委員顯智：緊急採購的話……"],["陳院長建仁：有決標公告！"],["邱委員顯智：即便是緊急採購，還是要去做決標公告，才能……"],["陳院長建仁：有決標公告！我已經講3次了！"],["邱委員顯智：沒關係，這個可以之後再……","我們這個是有一個客觀事實的嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：對嘛！你就「講白賊」啊！"],["邱委員顯智：好，院長，我想請教，2個月前院長在國會指示說，宏泰公益信託針對中嘉交易案的部分是由做處分的NCC去做監管，而不是教育部；院長也在國會指示應該由NCC負責去做調查，釐清宏泰公益信託捐款的爭議。但是2個月過去了，院長，NCC到現在也沒有約詢相關單位去做調查，然後也沒有去向教育部調閱資料。另外，宏泰當初承諾說要5年15億做公益，現在時間已經快到了，才捐了7億，除非今年要捐8億，不然承諾就要跳票了。面對NCC擺爛、不作為，甚至公然違抗院長的命令，請問院長現在要如何處理？"],["陳院長建仁：我想NCC沒有擺爛，他們也積極在努力。今天我們的議題是在講高端合約，如果委員對宏泰公益信託這件事情還要有所質詢的話，會後我會提供書面的報告。你今天離題嘛！"],["邱委員顯智：不是啊！監督政府各項施政本來就是我的職責，你之前已經有指示……"],["陳院長建仁：但是今天我們的專題報告是有關高端的合約……"],["邱委員顯智：什麼叫做沒有擺爛！"],["陳院長建仁：那你現在要談NCC的部分，我說NCC沒有擺爛，我已經……"],["邱委員顯智：不是啦！院長，我自己是認為不應該這樣護航財團啦！"],["陳院長建仁：我們沒有護航財團！"],["邱委員顯智：這很清楚嘛！它就要跳票了嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：我們沒有護航財團！"],["邱委員顯智：如果沒有護航財團的話，這不是擺爛？"],["陳院長建仁：也沒有擺爛！"],["邱委員顯智：他們根本沒有去調教育部的資料啊！"],["陳院長建仁：也沒有擺爛……"],["邱委員顯智：他們也沒有約詢相關單位去處理……"],["陳院長建仁：完全沒有擺爛！這是你片面的講法！"],["邱委員顯智：你也跟它命令了啊！"],["陳院長建仁：這是你片面的講法！而今天的議題就是高端合約！"],["邱委員顯智：那我想問你嘛……"],["陳院長建仁：今天來講這個東西，你要資料，我後面補充給你。"],["邱委員顯智：我想問你，宏泰公益信託等於是騙了這一個行政處分嘛，那個行政處分是有附款的，這是幾百億的交易案，也承諾5年要捐15億，可是現在已經要跳票了，你做何處理啊？"],["陳院長建仁：我想通傳會現在正在做各式各樣的調查，有關爭議經濟部也提供了股權資料來進行分析，如果有違反相關負擔的情形，我們當然是依法處理，現在正在……"],["邱委員顯智：怎麼依法處理？他們根本連去調閱教育部的資料都沒有！"],["陳院長建仁：現在正在這個爭議當中……"],["邱委員顯智：2個月過去了！院長，你已經指示了，他們完全沒有處理啊！這不是護航財團，什麼是護航財團？"],["陳院長建仁：我想處理事情都有一定的程序、一定的過程，然後呢……"],["邱委員顯智：好，院長，我再舉一個例子，揭弊者保護法上個會期還有送進來……"],["陳院長建仁：這也不是今天的議題。"],["邱委員顯智：這個會期連送進來都沒有，在你主持的行政院，連送進來都沒有！永豐金這是很明顯的……"],["陳院長建仁：這也不是今天的議題啊！"],["邱委員顯智：它根本就是在阻撓這個揭弊者保護法！甚至對行政院、對時力黨團、對許多力推揭弊者保護法的人進行監控！院長……"],["陳院長建仁：我們沒有進行監控。"],["邱委員顯智：院長，揭弊者保護法要再度跳票了嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：沒有，這一件事情我們已經在行政院召開了4次審查會，而且這方面我們法務部已經有在進行，所以我們並沒有跳票。"],["邱委員顯智：好，那什麼時候要送進來？只講送進來就好。不要再說社會沒有共識了！第9屆就送過了，對不對？光是你主持的行政院，什麼時候要送過來？院長，有一個時間點！"],["陳院長建仁：好，我請法務部長來回答。"],["邱委員顯智：院長，明年520之前有沒有可能送進來？"],["陳院長建仁：明年520？"],["邱委員顯智：是今年520。"],["蔡部長清祥：跟委員說明，其實揭弊者保護法立法委員也有很多提案……"],["邱委員顯智：部長、院長，不要再去護航財團！"],["蔡部長清祥：如果院會願意排進去的話，我們很願意在會上來提供意見。"],["邱委員顯智：遙遙無期啦，遙遙無期！","院長可不可以承諾今年520……"],["陳院長建仁：沒有遙遙無期。"],["邱委員顯智：今年520之前？"],["陳院長建仁：沒有遙遙無期。只要這個法案我們審查通過、達到共識，一定會提出來。"],["邱委員顯智：第9屆就排過了！"],["陳院長建仁：我答應你一定會提出來。"],["主席：好，謝謝邱委員。","接下來請邱委員臣遠質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":86,"meet_id":"臨時會院會-10-8-1-1","speakers":["游錫堃","邱顯智","邱臣遠","曾銘宗","林俊憲","賴士葆","邱泰源","王鴻薇","蔡適應","吳斯懷","洪申翰","游毓蘭","莊瑞雄","李德維","吳玉琴","林為洲"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-01-09"],"gazette_id":"1130301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130301_00002","1130301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n行政院院長提出「是否公布高端合約？是否圖利廠商及危害全民健康權益？」等相關事宜專案報\n告並備質詢─ 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那我想請陳院長陳院長請邱委員好 院長早"},{"start":31.102,"end":57.875,"text":"院長剛剛聽您的報告其中有一段針對這個高端疫苗的合約公開的部分那你有提到說事實上COVID-19疫苗完整合約不公開並非針對台灣而是全球各國接染然後還說包括BNT、莫德納、AZ、Nomavis都有設這個保密條款那因為這個保密條款所以沒辦法公開"},{"start":58.795,"end":69.56,"text":"那我想給你看一下 院長 這個左上角這個有四個國家的語言 然後有一個國徽那院長你知道這是哪個國家"},{"start":72.148,"end":99.187,"text":"瑞士因為院長是公會專家應該非常清楚那這個就是瑞士把他所有的採購疫苗的合約像這個例子這個是莫德納通通都放在這一個網站上一目了然一點下去就看到那不只是瑞士啊院長你其實非常清楚"},{"start":100.868,"end":124.862,"text":"像歐盟採購的這個疫苗的合約哪怕是哪個廠牌的全部也都公開在網路上包括像說有的是說這個連MOU然後呢這一個不只是一份合約從MOU到正式簽約到後來有可能他還會這個修正"},{"start":126.343,"end":155.498,"text":"那乃至於說你這個介紹像AZ2.9O也放在這個上面所以我說這整個疫苗採購的流程的法律文件啊院長這絕對不是像你們在第8頁寫這樣嘛感覺好像是說全世界都沒有公開這個採購疫苗現在是一個網路的時代全球化的時代全世界的國家當然"},{"start":156.533,"end":165.19,"text":"大部份的國家有可能沒有公開但是像瑞士 像歐盟大部份國家沒有公開 你講對齁不是啊 院長"},{"start":166.775,"end":186.895,"text":"你再比的那些國家難道是說我們要跟那些不公開的國家比嗎那個不公開的國家他的問題多嚴重那我必須要講啦你看這個不管是瑞士也好不管是說歐盟也好乃至於這些歐洲的國家那從頭到尾"},{"start":187.892,"end":190.233,"text":"我講很簡單我剛才已經說明很清楚"},{"start":210.458,"end":210.738,"text":"邱顯智"},{"start":233.602,"end":233.902,"text":"這個高端的價格"},{"start":254.787,"end":273.497,"text":"早就已經講出來了嘛這是高端自己講出來的那所以其他的契約的必要支點有哪一些是要保密的好啦 如果你認為說要保密的你可以去做一些處理嘛比如說你在這個地方的時候你在這邊故意寫說完整合約不公開"},{"start":274.377,"end":275.198,"text":"賴清德副總統已經講得非常清楚了"},{"start":304.119,"end":323.118,"text":"人民有知的權利啊是我同意這個疫苗的採購不是一勾兩勾勒不是一萬勾兩萬勾勒是這麼貴的一個東西那人民的血和錢人民有知的權利應該要公開這個高端的疫苗的合約嘛那如果你認為說"},{"start":325.421,"end":347.24,"text":"有哪一個部分是一個非得要保密不可的那你也可以去做相應的處理就像其他的國家一樣嘛其他的國家公開的時候他也去做處理啦那沒有道理是說到現在還這麼久了還連一個影子都看不到因為在這個保密協定的"},{"start":347.881,"end":349.361,"text":"你要跟高端協商嘛請教院長"},{"start":372.506,"end":388.214,"text":"高端的合約到底何時會公開請院長給我一個具體的時間點高端何時會公開的話這個高端它有內部的程序這個內部的程序呢他們也許需要經過董事會的討論所以我們沒有"},{"start":389.482,"end":414.252,"text":"董事會怎麼都要開來確定那最重要的一件事情我想可能委員你也很清楚在雙方如果能夠達到協議的情況下我們當然是希望他們越早公開越好你可以去比較看看其他的國家放在網站上面這麼清楚的事情大部分的只有少數的國家這樣做那他有開董事會嗎"},{"start":417.433,"end":443.224,"text":"有嗎?你們有去看嗎?所以沒辦法,也沒辦法有一個時間點嘛今天院長的答覆就是說也沒辦法有一個時間點這個需要雙方得到同意那如果不同意的話不就永遠都不公開那如果有這樣的一個情況發生的時候那我們當然就需要再考慮說他不公開的時候呢"},{"start":444.642,"end":462.977,"text":"那你要怎麼辦對 在這個情況這個很重要的在你剛才講的說相關的部分要遮蔽等等這個在大院的調閱小組調查的時候我們就有這樣的一個資訊公開而且大院已經開過20幾次的會議也都看過這個資料了你就是"},{"start":467.48,"end":495.283,"text":"昨天他已經開過調閱小組的會議 也看過這些資料就像你說的 就是有遮蔽的部分賴副總統就講了嘛 人民有知的權利啊我也同意 然後我們政府也同意但是政府需要講求誠信委員你是法律專家 你要一個政府做不誠信的事情嗎誠信是最重要的 我們政府簽約的我剛才已經講過 如果我們今天因為這樣而毀掉了政府的誠信"},{"start":495.868,"end":496.128,"text":"講聽不下去餒"},{"start":514.778,"end":517.599,"text":"這個當然是我們都是按照依法來辦理"},{"start":542.042,"end":558.341,"text":"依法來辦理的話依照政府採購法105條第一項第二款然後以及說這個後面的這個相關的細則的規定的話基本上應該是要有一個決標的公告那"},{"start":559.042,"end":561.065,"text":"但是院長即便是緊急採購還是要做絕標公告"},{"start":574.991,"end":600.987,"text":"你要有一個決標公告說你給這個廠商嘛然後這個決標公告上面會有很多的資訊那這個資訊包括上面現在大家所爭議的就是說很多契約上面的內容我們有決標公告啦沒有因為你沒有這個決標公告我很明確跟你講因為你沒有這個決標公告所以現在問題來了我們有決標公告你有決標公告是你有做 你確定嗎"},{"start":601.986,"end":617.955,"text":"是 我確定有絕標公告所以你這樣講的就不對啦你就說假消息啊你就用假消息來打擊政府啊有絕標公告但是我們遮蔽了價格我想齁 不要"},{"start":618.835,"end":634.127,"text":"用這一些事事而歸的理由來打擊政府這一個為了要保障人民的健康所做的這一些絕標的公告那我們已經有公告而且有遮蔽價格所以我剛才講的就是可惜了吧有絕標公告有絕標公告"},{"start":639.111,"end":667.605,"text":"你現在還在講錯的訊息啊不是錯的訊息啦是錯的訊息我想你們要講務實你們講理性你們講科學你完全反科學啊不理性啊也不務實啊我跟你講就有我說有你說沒有不需要不需要好我們不需要再講這個啦你講就不對嘛這個是大家社會可以來檢驗的對啊我講的就是這樣啊我們不需要你再講所以你有公告你承認有公告嗎那我現在告訴你說你承認有公告嗎"},{"start":668.425,"end":693.01,"text":"你沒有公告啊 有啊有公告啊 你問你沒有公告啊有公告啊 你看你就要講假的 錯的消息啊你認為說是緊急採購嘛 對不對有公告 有絕標公告 你覺得是緊急採購的話有絕標公告 還是要去做絕標公告有絕標公告 我已經講三次了沒關係 這個可以之後再來我們這個是有一個客觀的事實了嘛對嘛 你就說白菜啦 好啦"},{"start":693.737,"end":719.433,"text":"好 院長 那我想請教兩個月前 院長在國會也有指示說這個紅派公益信託針對這個宗家教育案的部分那是由這個做處分的NCCC做監管而不是教育部那院長也在國會指示說應該NCCC負責去做調查然後釐清紅派公益信託捐款的這個爭議但是呢 兩國會過去了 院長"},{"start":721.534,"end":733.486,"text":"NCC到現在也沒有約詢相關的單位去做調查然後也沒有向教育部去調閱資料那另外宏泰當初的承諾說要5年15億做公益"},{"start":734.957,"end":739.442,"text":"那請問陳院長面對NCC擺爛不作為甚至公然的違抗院長的命令請問院長現在要如何處理"},{"start":752.813,"end":772.827,"text":"我想NCC沒有擺爛NCC也積極在努力那今天我們的議題是在講高端合約如果委員你對於宏泰公益信託這件事情還要有所質詢的時候我會提供書面的報告本來監督政府各項的施政是我的職責嘛但是今天我們是專題報告是有關"},{"start":775.109,"end":782.535,"text":"高端的合約那你今天要談NCC的部分我說NCC沒有擺爛不應該這樣護航財團我們沒有護航財團我們沒有護航財團也沒有擺爛完全沒有擺爛這是你片面的講法"},{"start":798.627,"end":821.589,"text":"這是你片面的講法而今天的議題就是高端合約今天來講這個東西你要資料我後面補充給你紅帶公益信託那騙了等於是騙了這一個行政處分嘛那行政處分有付款的這是幾百億的交易案那也承諾說4年5年要捐15億嘛那現在已經要跳票了那你做何處理啊"},{"start":822.096,"end":844.65,"text":"我想通常會現在正在做各式各樣的調查有關的爭議那經濟部也提供了股權的資料來進行分析那如果有違反這個相關的負擔的這個情形的話我們當然是依法處理現在是在調查現在在根本他連續調閱教育部的資料連續做兩個月過去院長你已經指示了他完全沒有處理這不是護航財團什麼是護航財團"},{"start":846.271,"end":866.253,"text":"我想處理事情都有一定的程序一定的過程然後我再舉一個例子接避者保護法上個會期還有送進來這個會期連送進來都沒有在你主持的行政院連送進來都沒有永豐金這是很明顯的這也不是今天的議題啊接避者保護法"},{"start":867.915,"end":895.773,"text":"然後甚至對行政院．對實力黨團．對許多力推接避者保護法的人進行監控 院長我們沒有進行監控 接避者保護法要再度跳票了嗎沒有 我們這件事情已經在行政院已經召開了4次審查會而且我們法務部在這方面已經有在進行所以我們並沒有跳票那什麼時候要送進來 只講送進來就好不要再講說社會沒有共識了 第9屆都送過了"},{"start":897.838,"end":919.147,"text":"光是你主持的行政院什麼時候要送過來 院長有一個時間點明年520之前有沒有可能送進來今年520跟委員說明 其實街壁保護法立法委員有很多的提案如果院會願意排進去的話我們很願意在會上提供意見"},{"start":920.523,"end":921.283,"text":"好 謝謝邱委員接下來請邱委員呈言質詢"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}