{"error":false,"id":["149087"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149087,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149087","日期":"2024-01-09","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"臨時會院會-10-8-1-1","會議代碼:str":"第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議","屆":10,"會期":8,"會次":1,"臨時會會次":1,"種類":"院會","標題":"立法院第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-01-09T14:46:20+08:00","結束時間":"2024-01-09T15:02:08+08:00","影片長度":"00:15:48","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7594f10b9bbee689e52f1487956ab6a8826b98f121effac12be4303bcf228b50010d55363ceb03ea5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"14:46:20 - 15:02:08","會議時間":"2024-01-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議（事由：行政院院長提出「是否公布高端合約？是否圖利廠商及危害全民健康權益？」等相關事宜專案報告並備質詢）","gazette":{"lineno":146,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（14時46分）謝謝院長，有請我們行政院陳建仁陳院長。"],["主席：陳院長，請。"],["莊委員瑞雄：還有我們衛福部的薛部長。"],["陳院長建仁：莊委員午安。"],["莊委員瑞雄：院長午安。今天這個議題、關於今天這整個臨時會，我有一個很大的感慨，其實我們在相同的地方，也就是在院會針對整個疫苗專案報告和指定議題的報告就有3次，我相信薛部長最清楚，在衛環委員會你們就有6次……"],["薛部長瑞元：十幾次。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我說6次是指調閱小組。在財政委員會的疫苗專報是2次，在經濟委員會是1次，在衛環委員會關於疫苗的專報就有12次，所以我真的很感慨！2022年11月26日九合一大選到現在一年多，都沒有人要談這個，現在距離選舉只剩四、五天才排這個專案報告，這很明顯完全就是一個政治上的攻防。但是本席認為這個議題讓院長來講還是最適合，因為院長畢竟是公衛出身。","其實臺灣經過這一場百年大疫，全體國人同胞由政府部門帶領，上下共同團結在抗疫，我相信大家都盡心盡力了。到了後疫情時代，今天排這一場，我還特別去問了媒體朋友：你聽到現在，感覺怎麼樣？答案就是「冷飯熱炒」4個字，炒得起來、炒不起來不知道。但是我要來就教院長的就是，我的好朋友邱顯智今天在質詢的時候有問到你一個問題：高端疫苗到底有沒有決標的公告？我聽了以後覺得院長必須要再澄清，因為我擔心外面會有所誤解。按照整個政府採購法的規定，涉及機密採購的部分倒未必會有一定要決標的問題，我很擔心的就是，其他的疫苗到底有沒有決標上的公告？還有，早上院長這樣回答是口誤，還是幕僚提供的資訊有錯誤的地方？是不是請薛部長對這個地方再做一個澄清好不好？"],["薛部長瑞元：好，謝謝委員。這個部分應該更精確來講，開標、決標都是按照程序來，決標之後的話，本來我們就是要把資料上傳到工程會的這個網站。但是根據政府採購法第六十一條和它的施行細則第八十四條，如果是涉及商業機密的這種機密採購的話，我們可以不公告，機關可以不公告，但是仍然必須要將未刊登的決標資料傳到工程會的資料庫裡面去。"],["莊委員瑞雄：這麼細的東西，很顯然啦！院長早上的回答我很擔心……"],["陳院長建仁：我有講得比較簡單。"],["莊委員瑞雄：造成一個誤會，藉這個機會，也讓院長跟部長來做一個澄清。其實我一直在想說這個議題之所以會吵這麼久，經過這麼長的時間沉寂了，總統大選剩下幾天要投票了，我看整個網路上一直在講，這個有理都已經講不清了。本席本身學法，大家一直在談整個高端疫苗的契約要封存30年，網路上都在講這個，我聽到整個頭都一個頭兩個大你知道嗎？你也不曉得該怎麼樣去講說在臺灣這樣的一個假訊息蔓延以後，積非到最後會成是，所以部長，我要請教你的是，你是不是可以在這個地方再重新說明一次，衛福部你們所謂的保存重要公文，大家知道是30年，但是高端這一個契約你們到底是多久以後才能讓外界知道？"],["薛部長瑞元：根據雙方的保密協定，契約裡面的保密協定的話是5年。"],["莊委員瑞雄：5年？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，就是最後交貨之後5年我們就可以解密，但是這一個所謂30年是我們公文必須要保存30年，隨時以備不時之需可以來調閱。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以高端採購這樣的一個契約，說這個契約30年要封存是一個假訊息？"],["陳院長建仁：這是錯假消息。"],["莊委員瑞雄：如果是其他疫苗的採購，你說AZ不用保密，還是說Novavax不用保密，BNT不用保密，只有高端要保密，這有鬼囉！這我看來就有鬼囉！但是如果其他……我想請教BNT是幾年？"],["薛部長瑞元：BNT的話是10年。"],["莊委員瑞雄：保密10年？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，保密10年。"],["莊委員瑞雄：Novavax是幾年？"],["薛部長瑞元：Novavax的話是7年。"],["莊委員瑞雄：7年，AZ是5年？"],["薛部長瑞元：5年。"],["莊委員瑞雄：嘿！整個網路這樣跟你說，說沒有喔！只有高端要這樣保密、要掩蓋30年，聽到頭殼都會大啦！"],["陳院長建仁：這是錯假的。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以這樣來做一個澄清，我覺得是好事。你看喔！今天在野黨所提出來的一個問題，我反而也在這個地方想再問一次，就是當初整個緊急授權EUA，他現在跟你說有那麼多的審查委員是不記名的，在我來看，以現在來看當年的話，如果說我是那個委員的話，我也會怕耶！如果緊急授權我投反對，國內需要疫苗，那我壓力有多大，等一下說我在阻擋疫苗；我如果投贊成，人家又會罵我說是不是在圖利財團，這個我倒覺得也很麻煩，在當時的時空背景之下，這一些委員你說你們當初採取的是不記名，到底部長是在考量什麼？"],["薛部長瑞元：如同剛剛委員所提到的，因為現在網路非常的發達，所以如果把委員的姓名揭露的話，那的確會造成一些困擾，但是我們所有的會議資料，我們都已經公開，只是委員用ABC的代號去取代而已。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以當初你們採不記名，也有他特殊的考量這些時空因素存在啦！"],["薛部長瑞元：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我要請法務部長蔡部長也上來一下，衛福部部長請回。我一直在想說整個高端裡面，我相信很多在野黨的朋友會拿出來這樣去講說是不是有圖利，或者說這個過程裡面有沒有牽扯到誰貪瀆，我要請問部長的是，我們現在查高端，大家去跟你們檢舉，檢方就馬上去查辦，現在有幾件是不起訴的？"],["蔡部長清祥：63件，都已經查清楚了，沒有不法的情事。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我跟部長報告，今天這個案子如果讓你重新再回到你以前檢察官的一個專業的話，你也是「頭殼𢯾咧燒」啦！今天這個也來檢舉，那個也來檢舉，我今天告蔡英文，明天我告蘇貞昌，再來我告陳時中、告陳建仁院長、告薛瑞元部長，大家如果這樣搞，不論是報紙看到的，還是憑感覺的，你要怎麼辦？"],["蔡部長清祥：跟委員報告，後來在今年1月的時候，還有人提出3件，這3件目前還在偵辦當中，所以雖然是簽結，但是簽結是沒有確定力的，你如果懷疑，還有證據有涉嫌犯罪，還可以再拿出來。"],["莊委員瑞雄：當然有新事證的話，司法機關本來就是毋枉毋縱，這個案子就現在來看，我反而會認為國人對於有任何貪瀆的疑慮，他本來就是希望我們司法機關來查辦，可是碰到選舉的時候再來談這種案件，我相信大多數的民眾也會認為又來了，因為選舉又來了，這個大家看了也都會很討厭，讓整個司法機關整天在那邊忙得要命。但是我在這個地方也要求，部長，如果有任何新事證的話，我相信大家在國會裡面，高端幾乎是被在野黨打臭掉了，但是你說這個案到最後是不是有任何人涉案，或者是高端的高層，我要求我們司法機關也必須要毋枉毋縱。"],["蔡部長清祥：當然，一定會的，依法辦事嘛！如果有事實、有證據來證明，我們當然依法處理。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是啦！"],["蔡部長清祥：濫訴的情形不是只有高端而已，很多啦！動不動就告官員瀆職、圖利，我們檢察官大概要花很多時間在處理這些案子。"],["莊委員瑞雄：沒辦法，臺灣是一個高度民主的社會，我記得我以前在當臺北市議員的時候，我那時候看李登輝老總統都已經是卸任了，在監察院前面那邊站著兩個多死忠的，你知道嗎？每天站在那邊喊槍斃李登輝、槍斃李登輝，我從那邊過去，我每天和他們打招呼，有夠厲害！有時候意識形態，或者他選擇他自己所相信的，這個到最後怎麼解決？還是真的不得不由司法啦。所以這部分我也要求毋枉毋縱。","蔡部長請回，我繼續要請教院長的是，今天既然大家是因為高端在開臨時會，大家一直在講，我記得當初在批評高端的時候，當初也講高端好像符水，甚至說什麼高端打下去都無效，甚至於講謀財害命，我要在這個地方特別感謝院長，因為前幾天我自己的父親過世，院長也親自到我家裡面，我的父親今年90歲，我記得當初疫情來的時候，大家都打AZ，有的人打下去之後發燒了。"],["陳院長建仁：對，沒有錯。"],["莊委員瑞雄：有的人打下去都很難受，我爸爸當時第一劑也是打AZ，你還叫他打第二劑，再怎麼樣他都不去打。"],["陳院長建仁：對，沒錯，有副作用。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我跟他說要打疫苗，他不要，不要就是不要，我非常感謝的是，後來總統還有院長您，還有我們部會首長帶頭施打，我也不知道那個打了之後有沒有效果，我也都不知道，我的想法是陳建仁大仁哥，大家都叫你大仁哥，你有公衛背景，我們信賴你，看你打了，因此我帶我爸爸去打，我爸爸因為看你打了，因此才去打，我跟爸爸說相信陳建仁就對了。"],["陳院長建仁：謝謝。"],["莊委員瑞雄：還好度過了，所以我要特別來感謝。可是我現在回想起來，我必須要提到在野黨朋友的一個質疑，你說高端以現在來看，雖然疫情過去了，大家今天在問高端到底好或不好？到底有沒有國際認證？這部分我要請教院長。"],["陳院長建仁：好，這個部分有三點可以向委員報告，第一個就是高端曾經在巴拉圭跟泰國做過3期的臨床試驗，而且在巴拉圭也取得了EUA，另外世界衛生組織也幫高端去做臨床3期的研究，是在世界上三個國家來進行，後來世界衛生組織也跟高端有合約，用它的技轉來讓其他的國家可以使用高端的技術，更重要的就是最近在1月份的時候，很有名的國際期刊叫做新興傳染病的期刊，它就刊登了我們臺灣的真實世界數據，發現高端的效果和莫德納以及BNT是一樣的，比AZ還好，當然，比起科興、國藥更好，所以高端確實是個很好的、有國際認證的好疫苗。很可惜在當時，因為大家不斷地抹黑，像有些怕副作用的人，他不想去打，反而沒有機會來打高端，這樣的抹黑反而造成了可以打高端的人就放棄了高端，這就是很多老人家沒有預防接種的理由嘛！這樣子的話，就喪失了這個預防、打高端的機會的話，說老實話，我們是相當地不捨，這樣會使得這些老人家容易死於COVID-19，而事實也顯示，臺灣的老人家打COVID-19的比較少，我們本來當時的想法，高端如果副作用比較小，又有這麼好的效果，就應該讓怕副作用的人來接種，可是沒有，因為抹黑得太厲害，所以我覺得某一些人士或者是境外勢力的唱和者這樣隨便抹黑，實際上造成臺灣老人家不願意打高端度苗，這也是讓我很心痛的事情。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以很顯然，經過科學認證它不是符水，其實我們也希望國人同胞不要口水，來尊重這樣的科學，但是我在這個地方要特別提醒院長，還有我們衛福部，針對疫苗的不良反應，我相信這一些也有很多委員辦公室收到民眾的陳情，也就是施打疫苗以後不適狀況的這些申請案件。因為我國疫苗接種受害的救濟申請的門檻算是最低的，所以會特別多，我們也希望在整個嚴謹的程序之下、在科學的認證之下，這個部分行政部門可以加快腳步，讓民眾不會覺得疫情過去了，我忍受這麼多的痛苦……"],["陳院長建仁：而且八千多件已經處理了六千多件了，剩下一千多件。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以這個部分請行政院再加油。"],["陳院長建仁：好。"],["莊委員瑞雄：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝莊委員。","接下來請李委員德維質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":86,"meet_id":"臨時會院會-10-8-1-1","speakers":["游錫堃","邱顯智","邱臣遠","曾銘宗","林俊憲","賴士葆","邱泰源","王鴻薇","蔡適應","吳斯懷","洪申翰","游毓蘭","莊瑞雄","李德維","吳玉琴","林為洲"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-01-09"],"gazette_id":"1130301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130301_00002","1130301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n行政院院長提出「是否公布高端合約？是否圖利廠商及危害全民健康權益？」等相關事宜專案報\n告並備質詢─ 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院會啊針對整個疫苗專案報告跟指定議題的報告就有三次三次因為未完委員會啊這個我相信薛部長你也最清楚了你們就有六次這財政委員會啊六次是釣魚小組這財政委員會呢 疫苗的專報兩次"},{"start":57.832,"end":84.663,"text":"經濟委員會緊蓋國安委員會關於疫苗的一個專報就12次所以我很感激這個在2022年11月26號這個九合一的一個大選到現在2月沒有人要說這個選舉剩4、5天這個很明顯就完全就是一個政治上的一個攻防"},{"start":85.629,"end":88.692,"text":"但是本席還是認為說這個議題還是讓院長來講還是最適合因為院長畢竟是公衛出身其實在臺灣經過這一場百年大議"},{"start":100.27,"end":127.193,"text":"那大家全體上下國人同胞有政府部門帶領那大家共同在團結在抗議我相信大家都盡心盡力的到了這個整個後疫情時代今天排這一場我還特別去問了媒體的朋友說你聽到現在你會覺得怎麼樣四個字冷飯熱炒炒得起來炒不起來不知道但是我要來救教院長就是說"},{"start":129.172,"end":157.886,"text":"我的好朋友啊秋選之間在質詢的時候有問到你一個問題就是說高端疫苗到底有沒有這個整個絕標的一個公告這樣的一個問題啊我聽了以後啊我會覺得院長必須要再澄清因為我擔心外面會有所誤解啊因為按照整個政府的一個採購法裡面啊涉及到啊整個機密採購的部分喔那個到未必會有一定要"},{"start":158.53,"end":158.85,"text":"謝謝委員這部分應該更精確來講"},{"start":188.991,"end":197.56,"text":"開標、決標這個都按照程序來決標之後的話本來我們就是要把資料上傳到這個工程會的這個網站"},{"start":199.81,"end":226.385,"text":"但是根據政府採購法第61條跟它的施行細則第84條如果涉及到商業機密的這種機密採購的話那我們可以不公告 機關可以不公告但是必須要將未刊登的這個絕標的資料傳到 仍然要傳到工程會的這個資料庫裡面去"},{"start":229.162,"end":255.351,"text":"這麼細的東西那很顯然院長早上的一個回答我很擔心造成一個誤會接這個機會也讓院長跟部長來做一個澄清那其實我一直在想說這個議題之所以會吵這麼久那經過這麼長的時間成績了總統大選剩下幾天要投票了我看整個網路上一直在講這個有理都已經講不清了本席本身學法"},{"start":256.465,"end":276.51,"text":"那大家一直在談到說整個高端這個疫苗啊什麼這個整個契約啊要封存30年我聽到這個網絡都在說這個我聽到整個台港一台舖都兩粒大你知道嗎你也不曉得該怎麼樣去講說在台灣這樣的一個假訊期這樣蔓延以後啊機非到最後會成事啊所以不對"},{"start":277.39,"end":278.95,"text":"根據雙方的保密協定7月裏面的保密協定是5年"},{"start":300.711,"end":302.532,"text":"所以高端採購這樣的一個契約說這個契約30年要封存是一個假訊息 錯的訊息所以"},{"start":327.435,"end":347.83,"text":"如果說其他的疫苗的一個採購 你說AZ人不用保密 或是NOVAX不用保密 BNT不用保密 只有高端來保密 這有鬼囉 這我看來就有鬼囉但是如果其他 我要請教的 BNT是幾年 BNT的話是10年"},{"start":348.732,"end":349.853,"text":"當初整個緊急授權EUA"},{"start":378.952,"end":399.31,"text":"他現在跟你說那些深渣的委員齁 那不記名在我來看 以現在來看當年的話如果說我是那個委員的話 我也會怕咧我若跟你投反對 緊急授權我跟你反對啊國內需要疫苗 我壓力比較大 等於說我在阻擋疫苗啊我若跟你投贊成 人家還會跟我說我是不是在圖利財團"},{"start":408.897,"end":418.912,"text":"這個我倒覺得反而也很麻煩在當時的一個時空背景之下那這一些委員 你說你們當初採取的不記名到底補定 到底再考量一下"},{"start":419.908,"end":440.02,"text":"如同剛剛委員所提到的因為現在網路非常的發達所以如果把委員的姓名揭露的話那的確會造成一些困擾但是我們所有的這個會議的資料我們都已經公開只是委員用ABC的代號去取代而已"},{"start":440.709,"end":466.234,"text":"所以說當初你們就是說才不記名也有他特殊的一個考量這一些時空因素存在啦我要請法務部長蔡部長也請上來一下就是說向法務部部長請回啦那我一直在想說整個高端裡面我相信很多在黨的朋友會拿出來這樣去講說是不是有圖利或者說這個過程裡面有沒有牽扯到誰貪圖"},{"start":470.061,"end":492.182,"text":"我請問部長就是說,我們現在查高端,大家去自己檢紀,我們檢方就馬上去做一個查辦,現在有幾件是不起訴的?63件,就已經都查清楚了,沒有不法的情勢我跟部長報告,今天你做這個案子,如果讓你重新再回到你以前的一個專業的話,你老闆你也不要再燒了"},{"start":495.502,"end":505.791,"text":"今天那個要檢舉啦我今天叫蔡英文啦明天叫我蘇貞昌啦再來叫我程時中啦我來叫程建仁院長我來叫薛瑞仁水部長大家要創創的、補助看到的還是憑感覺的你怎麼辦?跟委員報告齁阿伯今年一月的時候還有人提出三件所以這三件還要牧場辦中間啦所以"},{"start":523.078,"end":550.698,"text":"雖然是牽結啦但是牽結是沒有確定力的你如果說懷疑還有證據有涉嫌犯罪可以再提出來那當然有新事實新事證的話司法機關本來就是誤法誤王誤眾這個案子到現在來看的話我反而會認為說國人對有任何貪圖的一個疑慮的話他本來就是希望我們司法機關來做一個查辦可是呢"},{"start":552.085,"end":579.568,"text":"碰到選舉的時候再來談這種案件的話我相信大多數的民眾會認為說他再來啊 又因為選舉再來啊這個看了大家也都會很討厭讓我們兩個司法機關齁你整天在那裡沒人要死去啦沒人要死去啦但是我在這個地方也要求啦部長如果有任何新事證的話我相信大家在國會裡面啊碰到高端幾乎是被在野黨打的打臭掉啦但是呢"},{"start":581.581,"end":606.586,"text":"你說這個案﹖到最後是不是有任何人去涉案的話﹖或者高端的高層的話﹖我要求我們司法機關也必須要勿妄勿縱當然一定會的依法辦事嘛﹖如果有事實﹖有證據來證明﹖那我們當然依法處理濫訴的情形不是高端而已很少的動不動就告官員瀆職圖利"},{"start":608.732,"end":624.19,"text":"我們檢察官大概要花很多的時間都在處理這些案子沒辦法我懂台灣是一個高度的一個民主的一個社會民眾稍微我記得我以前在當台北市議員的時候"},{"start":625.816,"end":626.196,"text":"蔡部長請回我繼續要來請教院長就是說"},{"start":653.982,"end":682.484,"text":"今天既然是高端大家在做這個臨時會大家一直在講說我記得當初在批評高端的時候你看當初也講說這高端怎麼扶我出去甚至什麼高端跑下去都很不好甚至於講說磨柴害命在這個地方我要特別感謝院長因為我前幾天我自己的父親或是院長親自到我家裡面"},{"start":683.988,"end":711.494,"text":"我記得我當初我的父親今年90歲當初疫情來的時候大家都打AZ有的打下去發燒有的打下去都很艱難爸爸等到第1期也去打AZ你再叫他打第1期他安卓打他就不要去打對 沒錯有副作用那你去打疫苗他不要我就是都不要"},{"start":712.711,"end":738.531,"text":"我非常感謝就是說其實後來總統還有院長您還有我們部會的所長去帶頭我也不知道說那個主席好不好我也都不知道我的想法是說成見人大人都叫你大人哥你就有公衛背景我們信賴你你打蠟我剛才帶我老伯去我老伯英語這樣我看你在拍"},{"start":739.309,"end":740.61,"text":"這部份有三點可以向委員報告第一就是高端"},{"start":769.802,"end":795.008,"text":"曾經在巴拉圭跟泰國做過三期的臨床試驗而且在巴拉圭取得了EUA另外世界衛生組織也幫高端去做臨床三期的研究是在世界上三個國家來進行後來世界衛生組織也跟高端來"},{"start":797.282,"end":824.173,"text":"這一個有合約來用他的這個計轉來給其他的國家來可以使用高端的技術那更重要的就是最近一月份的時候很有名的國際期刊叫做新型傳染病的期刊他就刊登了我們臺灣的真實世界的數據發現高端的效果是和莫德納跟BNT是一樣的比AZ還好那當然比這個科興跟國藥更好"},{"start":824.949,"end":840.542,"text":"所以高端確實是一個很好的有國際認證的好的疫苗很可惜在當時因為大家不斷的抹黑像有些有副作用的人他不想去打反而沒有機會來打高端那這樣一個抹黑反而造成了可以打高端的人"},{"start":840.942,"end":840.962,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":870.982,"end":895.823,"text":"所以我覺得某一些人士或者是境外勢力的唱和者這樣的隨便抹黑實際上造成台灣老人家不願意打高端疫苗這也是讓我很心痛的事情所以很顯然這個經過科學認證它不是撫水我們也希望國人同胞不要口水來尊重這個科學"},{"start":896.991,"end":922.7,"text":"但是我在這個地方要特別提醒院長還有衛福部就是說針對疫苗的一個不良的反應我相信這一些也很多委員的辦公室也受到民眾的懲罰就施打疫苗以後不是的一個狀況這些申請的一個案件因為我國疫苗接種受害的一個救濟申請的門檻我們算最低所以會特別多我們也希望"},{"start":934.276,"end":940.662,"text":"主席"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}