{"error":false,"id":["149097"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149097,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149097","日期":"2023-09-22","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"院會-10-8-1","會議代碼:str":"第10屆第8會期第1次會議","屆":10,"會期":8,"會次":1,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"院會","標題":"立法院第10屆第8會期第1次會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2023-09-22T10:49:29+08:00","結束時間":"2023-09-22T11:05:11+08:00","影片長度":"00:15:42","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/20dc639cdbf6214f32d5f939c95ac3fc659e523f497a2948f8ba9b0039caa7a6739ca4563886b2115ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國書","委員發言時間":"10:49:29 - 11:05:11","會議時間":"2023-09-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第10屆第8會期第1次會議（事由：一、行政院院長提出有關農業部辦理專案進口雞蛋相關事項專案報告並備質詢。（9月22日）\n二、行政院院長提出登革熱防治相關事宜專案報告並備質詢。（9月23日）\n三、行政院院長施政報告並備質詢。（9月26日）\n四、9月22日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。）","gazette":{"lineno":474,"blocks":[["黃委員國書：（10時49分）感謝主席，有請行政院陳院長、農業部陳代部長、衛福部薛部長。","陳院長，好！辛苦了。"],["主席：陳院長請。"],["陳院長建仁：黃委員，好！"],["黃委員國書：9月17日那天，行政院否認陳吉仲部長請辭獲准。那時候否認有這事情，表示陳部長有責任持續向各界釐清質疑。隔了2天，9月19日行政院就宣布准辭了。我想請問院長，當時准辭陳吉仲部長，是基於什麼的考量？"],["陳院長建仁：陳吉仲部長在進口雞蛋的政策實施上，他認為他已經實際上達成了政策目標，也就是能夠充足供應，而且降低價錢，保護蛋農的權益。但他認為在過程當中，也引起社會困擾，所以他多次跟我表示感到歉意，也希望能夠准辭。在那個時候，因為有很多事情與質疑還沒有釐清，所以我就請他繼續向各界釐清。到9月19日，其實在9月18日、19日，他都再次向我表達希望請辭的意思，他也說他會把相關釐清的事實再做詳細、更好的說明，我曉得他有跟我們立法院黨團說明。後來他辭意甚堅，我也覺得要尊重他，所以就准予他辭職。"],["黃委員國書：瞭解。"],["陳院長建仁：同時我們也簽報由陳駿季次長代理部長。"],["黃委員國書：這過程有沒有政治考量？"],["陳院長建仁：最主要我們是考慮到陳前部長他自己請辭的意願，他勇於負責、敢於承擔，也希望能夠消弭社會不必要的紛擾。"],["黃委員國書：瞭解。當時沒有准辭他，並說要持續向各界釐清質疑，對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["黃委員國書：現在各界還是有一些疑慮。我想請問一下，新任的農業部長什麼時候會上任？現在是陳代部長。"],["陳院長建仁：現在是代理部長，我們會再看看，徵詢更合適或討論合適的人選，我們會再提出新任的部長，目前是代理。"],["黃委員國書：感謝院長。各界所有的質疑，農業部都有責任對外說明清楚，對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：確實。"],["黃委員國書：我想這是行政院的立場，也是農業部的立場。針對最近各地方稽查的一些狀況，我覺得農業部、甚至行政院，都應該在第一時間把這些質疑說明清楚。像前幾天就查到液蛋廠商混用進口蛋，卻標示國產！為什麼要做這樣標示？業者表示，這是農業部指示的。這件事情我想先請教衛福部薛部長，混合液蛋可不可以標示國產？沒有違法？我想請問一下薛部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：依照食安管理的相關辦法，混合液蛋如果有臺灣的，也有進口的，應該都要標示。"],["黃委員國書：都要說明清楚？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["黃委員國書：不能只標示臺灣？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["黃委員國書：我想請問一下農業部陳代理部長，在過程當中，農業部有沒有指示業者針對進口混合液蛋將它標示為臺灣？有沒有做這樣的指示？"],["陳代理部長駿季：跟委員說明，當初我們中央畜產會要委託加工廠加工的時候，的確6月間畜產會的同仁誤解相關法規，覺得液蛋是可以實質轉型的產品，可以標示為臺灣，所以就通知加工廠，可以標臺灣；但到7月時，經向衛福部查證，覺得這樣法規的解讀是錯誤的，所以我們立即通知代工業者做標示改變。我要跟委員報告的是，所有標示錯誤的蛋品，在畜產會委託加工廠代工後，都回到我們的庫存。所以所有標示錯誤的部分並沒有釋出，都在我們的庫存內。"],["黃委員國書：好。那我想問一下，業者的說法是不是事實？的確是農業部有去針對業者做標示的指示吧？對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想……"],["黃委員國書：的確是事實吧？"],["陳代理部長駿季：是畜產會本身的同仁依據過往的一些認知，覺得變成液蛋的時候是可以標示為臺灣，就是實質加工的轉型，所以有這樣的一個誤解。"],["黃委員國書：好，我想這個事情在食藥署這邊的規定其實很清楚，各級政府機關、各單位其實都很清楚這個事情，我也不懂為什麼農業部的同仁在這個事情上竟然沒有把它搞清楚，到底是誰去做這樣的指示？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想這本身因為是畜產會的殼蛋要去轉成加工，讓它的有效期限延長，所以當時這些畜產會的同仁是針對過往相關的經驗，因為有一條所謂實質轉型的產品是可以標示製造地是臺灣的，他看了這個條文後認為稅則號列六碼如果改變時就可以標示成臺灣，所以他是對於法規上面的誤解、錯誤，但是後來發現到錯誤以後，我們在7月的時候就已經告訴代工業者要改正這方面的部分。"],["黃委員國書：瞭解！所以這個是畜產會同仁的疏失吧？應該這樣講……"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，他對法規的……"],["黃委員國書：好，我們找到原因了，今天我們主要是要來找出原因，同仁的疏失嘛！農業部在臉書其實也說了是農業部督導不周，你們也跟社會道歉了嘛，對不對？你們的臉書也說了。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["黃委員國書：原因就是因為這個樣子。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["黃委員國書：好，接下來有問題要處理了。那業者被處罰的損失，他是接受農業部的指示造成他的損失，我想請問一下，業者端如果有損失的話，他可不可以向農業部求償？可不可以？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想我們從實務上來看，我們委託的這批液蛋都回到我們畜產會的庫存，並沒有釋出，所以並沒有一個買賣的行為。至於說地方政府裁罰了相關的業者，他根據的這些可能會回到相關食安法的規定來辦理。"],["黃委員國書：好，如果業者被處罰的話呢？我來問一下行政院的立場，你覺得在這個部分，農業部可以做什麼樣的協助？農業部應該要盡到什麼樣的責任？農業部也承認有疏失了嘛！那業者被處罰了，他的過失，業者過失的原因有一半以上是因為農業部指示，所以這個不能完全歸責於業者嘛，所以農業部應該也要盡到協助他們的責任嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：我想這件事情確實是中央畜產會同仁的疏失，但這個疏失如果造成業者有損失的情形，這不是我們所樂見的，因為所有標示改變的產品，也就是這些進口的液蛋都還在，我們會協助業者把這個事實來跟相關地方政府說明，希望他們能夠瞭解。"],["黃委員國書：好，感謝院長說明。","接下來，現在民眾最關心的問題是會不會在市面上買到過期的雞蛋？"],["陳院長建仁：不會。"],["黃委員國書：農業部在之前一再地說明不會有過期的雞蛋流到市面上去，但是昨天有被查到了，在桃園，有進口的雞蛋配送到賣場，然後有效期標示不實，效期標示不實表示它可能有過期之嫌，這個是一個事實。我想瞭解一下，農業部有沒有掌握市面上所有的進口雞蛋是不是都還在有效期限內？都沒有過期的問題？陳代部長？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想跟委員回答的就是，我們中央畜產會在釋出雞蛋到洗選場的時候，都會確認所有釋出到洗選場的雞蛋都在有效期限之內，在有效期限之內，洗選場會做相關殼蛋或加工蛋到相關的通路，那我們也特別強調，業者如果要以殼蛋方式進入市場的話，一定要根據我們所提供的有效期限去做標示，如果沒有按照有效期限標示的話，就違反了相關的標示規定。那我所瞭解的就是說，桃園這邊所查到的是在後端的庫存，並沒有在架上，因為我們查過，現在在通路上、賣場的架上是沒有進口雞蛋的，因為後續流向的追查有的是在它庫存的部分，這個部分我們可能還要再配合衛福部食藥署這邊去確認到底那批蛋是不是還在效期之內。"],["黃委員國書：好，所以農業部現在要做的事情非常非常重要，就是要讓全國的民眾安心，我們現在在市面上買到的雞蛋，不管是國產蛋還是進口蛋都沒有過期的問題，農業部應不應該這樣的去跟民眾保證？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想我們農業部還是會更積極的向大眾宣布跟宣導，畜產會針對進口蛋在釋出的時候，都一定會是在相關進口雞蛋的有效期限之內提供給業者，相對的，這些業者也會根據相關有效期限的標示釋出到市面上。","第二個部分，目前針對現有庫存的雞蛋跟後續一些為了維持庫存水準的雞蛋，我們不會再用殼蛋的方式進入所謂的賣場，我們會以加工用蛋的方式來處理，這樣也避免一些消費者的疑慮。"],["黃委員國書：好，感謝你的說明。","現在我們回到政策當時制定的問題，當時農業部為什麼要專案進口這些雞蛋導致過期，這個是民眾的疑慮嘛，當時是什麼考量呢？是因為人為的疏失錯估國內的需求嗎？的確，現在的蛋太多了，導致這些進口雞蛋要被銷毀。還是當時是為了安全庫存而要刻意進口這些過量的雞蛋？當然還有人會質疑這個是不是會圖利廠商。我想請農業部、行政院這邊一定要做清楚的說明，當時進口的數量是誰決定的？是畜產會決定的還是農業部決定的？什麼人決定的？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想跟委員報告，我們都知道，剛剛院長的報告裡面也有特別提到，大概去年到今年年初的時候，因為全球禽流感疫情的爆發，同樣的，臺灣也受到很嚴重的影響，所以當時我們國內雞蛋的生產量，蛋雞的數量從過往大概3,400萬隻降到3,100多萬隻，每一天的雞蛋缺口已經達到220萬顆左右。相對的，我們過往的經驗是當你的缺口是在5%的時候，我們會做橫向的調度，就是儘量讓國內的加工用蛋進入我們的通路，所以在整個的過程中是需要的，在那個情況如果沒有專案進口的話，會導致整個雞蛋價格上漲，同時那時候的黑市價格也上升了。"],["黃委員國書：當時你決定要做這樣的專案進口……"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["黃委員國書：用這樣的數量進口的時候，當時有沒有想到會有這樣的問題？有這麼龐大數量的雞蛋必須要被銷毀，當時有沒有想到？有沒有想到可能會有5,000多萬顆雞蛋要被銷毀？有沒有想到呢？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們當時是有評估所有的庫存水位到底要在什麼樣的水位。"],["黃委員國書：好，那我想請問一下陳院長。農業部也說了，這一次專案進口是用5.7億創造了60億的效應。院長，你認不認同這樣的說法？"],["陳院長建仁：我想跟委員做一個報告，當時確實每一天我們都缺少200萬顆雞蛋，一整個月就是6,000萬顆，所以當時我們就決定要進口雞蛋。其實雞蛋進口進來除了要補足缺口之外，另外一個很重要的意義就是能夠遏止黑市的價格，當時黑市的價格是一顆雞蛋9塊錢，但是當我們的進口雞蛋進來後，銷售價格是6塊錢，就出現降了3塊錢的情況。如果以產地、我們花出去的價錢來看，每顆蛋是可以減少2塊錢的價格，時間假設以4個月來算的話，每一天是2,400萬顆，一個月30天，然後4個月的時間我們一共會進口30億顆蛋，每顆蛋可以省2塊錢，這樣就省下了60億元，這是他們這樣計算出來的。"],["黃委員國書：所以行政院……"],["陳院長建仁：我覺得這是一個合理的推算。"],["黃委員國書：合理的說法？如果這樣的話，未來如果再碰到缺蛋危機的時候，行政院還會不會支持農業部用這樣的專案進口的做法？"],["陳院長建仁：我覺得未來農業部要再做進口專案的時候，因為經過了這一次的經驗，我們發現要進口的時候，我們還有一些精進的方法，我剛才已經有報告過，我再跟委員私下做說明。"],["黃委員國書：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員。接下來請邱委員臣遠質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":18,"meet_id":"院會-10-8-1","speakers":["游錫堃"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2023-09-22"],"gazette_id":"1126301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1126301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期第1次會議紀錄","content":"報告事項","agenda_id":"1126301_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_0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proport"},{"start":97.393,"end":118.892,"text":"其實9月18號、9月19號他都有再次來跟我表達他希望請辭的意思然後他也說他會把這個相關釐清的事實呢再詳細的更好的說明那我曉得他也有跟社會跟這個我們立法院的黨團來說明那後來他辭役甚堅那我也覺得他"},{"start":122.875,"end":123.716,"text":"這過程有沒有政治的考量?"},{"start":137.533,"end":138.334,"text":"瞭解當時沒有準時他"},{"start":159.977,"end":169.869,"text":"是說要持續向各界釐清質疑嗎?現在各界還是有一些疑慮那我想請問一下新任的農業部長什麼時候會上任?現在是陳代部長"},{"start":171.553,"end":199.347,"text":"對現在是代理部長我們在可能會再看看徵詢更合適的或來討論有合適的這一個人選我們會讓再來提出這個新人的這個部長目前是代理感謝院長我們所有的各界的職與農業部都有責任要對外要來說明清楚對不對我想是行政院的立場這也是農業部的立場那針對最近"},{"start":201.07,"end":228.267,"text":"各地方稽查的一些狀況我覺得農業部甚至行政院都應該在第一時間把這些質疑說明清楚像前幾天就有查到了有液彈的廠商他混用了進口彈他標示國產那業者表示那為什麼要去做這樣的標示呢這個是業者表示說這個是農業部指示的這個事情到底是不是事實我想先請教衛福部薛部長"},{"start":229.841,"end":252.424,"text":"混合義蛋可不可以標示國產?有沒有違法?好,我想請問一下薛部長。依照這個食安管理的相關辦法的話,混合義蛋的話,那如果有台灣的也有進口的應該都要標示。都要說明清楚,不能只標示台灣。對。好,那我想請問一下農業部陳代部長。"},{"start":254.721,"end":267.58,"text":"在這個過程當中農業部有沒有指示業者針對進口的混合的蛋液、液蛋將它標示為台灣有沒有做這樣的指示"},{"start":268.476,"end":282.835,"text":"我想跟委員說明我們當初我們中央區長會要委託加工廠加工的時候那的確在6月間那時候區長會的同仁他誤解相關的法規覺得說"},{"start":284.878,"end":307.005,"text":"一旦是一個可以實質轉型的一個產品可以標示為臺灣所以就通知那個加工廠可以標所謂的臺灣但是到了7月的時候有跟衛福部查證覺得說這樣的一個法規的解讀是錯誤的所以我們立即也通知了業者代工我們代工的業者說要去做一些標示的改變"},{"start":307.825,"end":324.025,"text":"那我要跟委員報告的是所有的這些標示錯誤的蛋品都是由續廠會委託加工廠代工完了以後都回到我們的庫存所以所有的這些標示錯誤的部分並沒有釋出都在我們的庫存之內"},{"start":326.257,"end":352.05,"text":"那我想問一下那業者的說法是不是事實的確是農業部有去針對業者做標示的指示吧對不對我想是去場會本身的同仁他依據過往的一些認知覺得一代一旦變成一旦的時候是可以標示為台灣就是一個實質加工的一個轉型所以有這樣子一個誤解"},{"start":355.049,"end":367.306,"text":"指要署這邊的規定其實很清楚了各級政府政府機關各單位其實都很清楚這個事情我也不懂為什麼農業部的同仁在這個事情上竟然沒有把它搞清楚"},{"start":368.613,"end":390.424,"text":"到底是誰去做這樣的指示?我想這本身因為是續產會的一個殼蛋要去轉成加工讓它的有效期限延長所以當時的這些同仁續產會的同仁他針對過往的相關的經驗因為有一條這個所謂的實質轉型的產品是可以標製造地台灣的"},{"start":391.784,"end":392.745,"text":"報告並備質詢。（9月24日）namon"},{"start":413.553,"end":437.03,"text":"矩傳會同仁的疏失吧應該講好我們找到原因了今天我們主要是要來找出原因同仁的疏失嘛好那農業部在臉書其實也說了農業部督導不周你也跟社會道歉了嘛對不對你的臉書也說了好原因就是因為這個樣子好接下來有問題要處理了那業者被處罰的損失"},{"start":439.619,"end":447.553,"text":"他是接受農業部的指示造成他的損失我想請問一下那業者如果有損失的話他可不可以向農業部求償"},{"start":448.223,"end":475.206,"text":"我想我們從實務上來看就是我們委託的這一批的液彈都回到我們續產會的庫存並沒有釋出所以並沒有一個買賣的一個行為那至於說地方政府裁罰了相關的業者相關的業者那他根據的這些可能會回到相關的實案法的規定來辦理那如果業者被處罰的話呢"},{"start":476.943,"end":504.367,"text":"那行政院我問一下行政院的立場那你覺得在這個部分農業部可以做什麼樣的協助農業部應該要盡到什麼樣的責任農業部也承認有疏失了嘛那業者被處罰了那處罰他的過失業者的過失的原因有一半以上是因為農業部的指示所以這個不能完全歸責於業者嘛所以農業部你應該也要盡到協助他們的責任嘛"},{"start":504.923,"end":505.344,"text":"（9月23日（9月24日"},{"start":520.363,"end":540.716,"text":"致的改變的產品都還的進口的這些業單都還在那你我們會把這個事實來跟相關協助業者來跟相關的這個地方政府來說明希望他們能夠了解感謝院長說明好接下來現在民眾最關心的問題是"},{"start":542.345,"end":569.776,"text":"會不會在市面上買到過期的雞蛋那農業部在之前一再的說明不會有過期的雞蛋留到市面上去昨天有被查到了在桃園有這個進口的雞蛋配送到賣場然後有下午期標示不實那下午期標示不實表示說他可能有過期之嫌這個是一個事實"},{"start":570.834,"end":594.603,"text":"那我想了解一下,農業部有沒有掌握市面上所有的進口雞蛋是不是都還在有效期限內,都沒有過期的問題?陳代部長我想跟委員回答齁,就是我們中央續產會在釋出這個雞蛋到西選場的時候都會確認所有的釋出到西選場的這個雞蛋都在有效期間之內,那"},{"start":596.687,"end":614.27,"text":"在有效期限之內,犧牲場會做相關的殼蛋或者是加工蛋的一個道相關的通路。那我們也特別強調,你如果要建到,以殼蛋的方式建到市場的話,一定要根據我們所提供的有效期限去做標示。"},{"start":615.337,"end":640.533,"text":"那如果沒有按照這個有效期限標示的話就違反了相關的一個標示相關的一個規定那我所了解就是說桃園這邊他所查到的他是在後端的庫存並沒有架因為我們查過現在在通路上賣場的架上是沒有這個進口雞蛋那因為後續的流向的追查有的是在他的庫存的部分那這個部分我們可能還要再配合"},{"start":641.874,"end":662.369,"text":"為吳補食藥署這邊去確認他到底那批蛋是不是還在效極之內。所以農業部現在要做的事情非常非常重要就是要讓全國的民眾安心我們現在在市面上買到的雞蛋不管是國產蛋還是進口蛋都沒有過期的問題"},{"start":663.858,"end":689.076,"text":"農業部應不應該在做這樣子的跟民眾保證?我想農業部還是會更積極的向大眾宣布跟他的宣導就是續場會針對這個進口蛋的釋出的時候都一定會在相關進口雞蛋的有效期間之內提供給業者那相對的這些業者也會根據相關的有效期間的標示釋出到市面上那第二個部分是現在目前"},{"start":689.957,"end":690.518,"text":"現在回到政策當時制定的問題"},{"start":711.94,"end":735.053,"text":"當時農業部為什麼要專案進口這些雞蛋導致過期這個是民眾的疑慮當時是什麼考量是因為人為的疏失錯過國內的需求的確現在的蛋太多了那導致這些蛋要去銷毀這些進口雞蛋還是當時是為了安全的庫存要刻意進口這些過量的雞蛋當然還有人會質疑說這個是不是會圖利廠商我想了解"},{"start":735.66,"end":764.364,"text":"我想請農業部、行政院這邊一定要做清楚的說明當時這些進口的數量是誰決定的?是續產會決定的呢?還是農業部決定的?什麼人決定的?我想看委員報告我們都知道從剛才院長的報告裡面有特別提到大概去年到今年的年初的時候因為全球的群流感的一個疫情的爆發那同樣的台灣也受到很嚴重的影響所以當時我們的國內生產的雞蛋的生產量"},{"start":764.684,"end":765.445,"text":"報告並備質詢。（9月24日（9月24日"},{"start":781.698,"end":782.518,"text":"市長 當時您決定要做這樣子"},{"start":809.855,"end":812.576,"text":"我們當時是有評估所有的庫存的水位到底要在什麼樣的一個水位?那我要請問一下陳院長,農業辦也說了"},{"start":838.374,"end":862.387,"text":"這一次專案進口是用5.7創造了60億的效應,那院長你認不認同這樣的說法?好,我想跟委員做一個報告,當時確實每一天我們都缺少200萬顆的雞蛋,那如果一整個月就是有6000萬顆,那所以當時我們就決定要來進口雞蛋,"},{"start":863.107,"end":889.161,"text":"雞蛋進口進來除了要補足缺口以外另外一個很重要的意義就是能夠遏止這個黑市的價格在當時黑市的價格一顆雞蛋是9塊錢但是當我們這個進口蛋進來的時候它銷售的是6塊錢所以就可以降了3塊錢的這個情況那如果以這個產地我們發出去的價錢來看每一顆蛋是可以減少2塊錢的這個價格"},{"start":891.542,"end":916.54,"text":"那因為我們在這一個時間我們假設以4個月來算的時候每一天是2400萬顆然後一天是一個月是30天然後4個月我們一共會進口30億顆的蛋那每一顆蛋可以省2塊錢就省下了60億元這是他們這樣子計算出來的我覺得這是一個合理的推算合理的推算"},{"start":916.86,"end":916.88,"text":"訊息"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}