{"error":false,"id":["149101"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149101,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149101","日期":"2023-09-22","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"院會-10-8-1","會議代碼:str":"第10屆第8會期第1次會議","屆":10,"會期":8,"會次":1,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"院會","標題":"立法院第10屆第8會期第1次會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2023-09-22T11:53:52+08:00","結束時間":"2023-09-22T12:09:43+08:00","影片長度":"00:15:51","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/20dc639cdbf6214f1ba7488c8a15f430659e523f497a2948f8ba9b0039caa7a6465aa8e1d032cc685ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱顯智","委員發言時間":"11:53:52 - 12:09:43","會議時間":"2023-09-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第10屆第8會期第1次會議（事由：一、行政院院長提出有關農業部辦理專案進口雞蛋相關事項專案報告並備質詢。（9月22日）\n二、行政院院長提出登革熱防治相關事宜專案報告並備質詢。（9月23日）\n三、行政院院長施政報告並備質詢。（9月26日）\n四、9月22日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。）","gazette":{"lineno":817,"blocks":[["邱委員顯智：（11時54分）謝謝院長。我想請陳院長。"],["主席：院長請。"],["陳院長建仁：邱委員好！"],["邱委員顯智：院長好！院長，我想先請教農業部，外傳負責雞蛋的畜牧司司長張經緯將要調職去特生中心，是否真有其事？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想在這一次的專案進口，我們從結果來看這個成效是穩定的……"],["邱委員顯智：對，是有這件事嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：但是在執行面，我們……"],["邱委員顯智：次長，就是說有沒有這件事啦？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，有這件我們正在處理的事情。"],["邱委員顯智：有這件事喔？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["邱委員顯智：OK，好。","院長，現在是叫做一屍三命，已經折損了三位包括部長這麼重要的官員，去職這件事情，我覺得這不是重點，重點應該是說事情要怎麼解決啦！"],["陳院長建仁：沒有錯。"],["邱委員顯智：因為以後你也可能繼續買，如果有這個需求的話，這個事情到現在為止看起來還是沒辦法解決嘛！這才是大家所憂慮的，包括這個蛋的流向，大家非常擔心是不是流到社區的供餐給我們的老人家或是小學生的營養午餐等等……"],["陳院長建仁：我們已經有公布了，營養午餐絕對不會有，因為剛才教育部已經講得很清楚，營養午餐一定用國產的蛋，所以這個部分請大家不用擔心。"],["邱委員顯智：院長，我想先請教，你認為說從8月底，我揭露了這個專案進口蛋政府補貼差價將近5.7億嘛！我一開始的時候為什麼關注這個事情？是因為我以為是從農發基金來的，我覺得我們是農家子弟，農發基金應該用來支持、保護我們的農民，怎麼可以用於平抑蛋價？我覺得這條錢很奇怪，一開始的時候我是這樣認為。"],["陳院長建仁：這個不是給……"],["邱委員顯智：沒關係，院長，我現在想請教你，從進口商的遴選，包括價格，你們是多少錢買的、合約、到最後雞蛋的保存，甚至後來大家談到有效期限、現在進口蛋的流向，包括現在大量雞蛋的報廢、洗產地等等一連串的爭議，農業部過去做的回應有說服你嗎？有把所有的問題講清楚嗎？院長。"],["陳院長建仁：我覺得在相關整個流向的掌握上面，我們剛才已經有跟大家報告，大部分17%是殼蛋上市，然後大概百分之二十幾是加工蛋……"],["邱委員顯智：院長，我想提醒你，你自己看他們最近的表現，你看左邊這個圖，很顯然農業部的說法只能說服自己，說服不了民眾嘛！所以才會有現在這個問題。那為什麼民眾不願意相信農業部？你看左邊這個圖，它說巴西蛋被揭露保存期限標示錯誤後，9月12號的時候農委會拍胸脯保證巴西專案進口蛋都在有效期限內，它說所有的雞蛋，9月12日是這樣講的。結果時力黨團追了好幾天巴西蛋去哪裡之後，農委會又自己出來開記者會說，超過5,000萬顆進口蛋逾期要銷毀，而且八成是巴西的，從頭到尾這些講法完全都兜不攏的情況之下……"],["陳院長建仁：委員，看文章要看清楚，我們說的是上市的那些蛋都是在效期內，沒有在效期內的，我們就放在我們的……"],["邱委員顯智：院長，左邊這張圖，你不能聽農委會的話，你應該要……"],["陳院長建仁：不是，真的是這樣啊！"],["邱委員顯智：你應該要思考，你自己看一下它的簡報，它的簡報是什麼？目前巴西專案進口雞蛋，不是說上架的，它這樣說是不對的。院長，我只是提醒你，你真的要仔細去看它的說法，它說巴西專案進口雞蛋都還在有效期限，這不對嘛！過了幾天、6天之後，你又出來講說有5,000萬顆已經銷毀，不是5,000顆，是5,000萬顆耶！院長。"],["陳院長建仁：我們要看記者問農業部的情況……"],["邱委員顯智：這個是它自己的簡報。院長，我想先請教，因為現在拿出來的資料，也是今天的專案報告、也是本來就有的東西啦！其實從頭到尾一而再再而三，我們一直要求它要提供資料，但是搞到部長已經下臺了，資料還是沒辦法提供出來，所以在這邊我直接要求院長，是不是比照慶富案跟815大停電，由行政院的政務委員召集一個專案的行政調查小組，然後由院的層級來調查？因為它本身就是一個被調查的機關嘛！就由行政院組一個專案調查小組，交一個完整的報告給立法院和全體的國人來檢驗，院長，這樣可以嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：委員，你想要看的報告是雞蛋流向的報告嗎？"],["邱委員顯智：不管是從雞蛋的流向，我剛剛講了，從雞蛋的流向到你跟巴西的這些廠商跟巴西當地的這些人的契約等等，還有很多包括雞蛋的保存也好，有效期限、遴選價格、合約，到最後它為什麼決定這個價格，它本來就是一個被調查的機關，對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：這個都有一定的程序，而且我們也清清楚楚的，可以跟委員來做報告。"],["邱委員顯智：院長，你交給被調查機關自己調查，搞到最後的結果就是完全沒有辦法調查。"],["陳院長建仁：委員，我想跟你講的就是，在這整個雞蛋採購的過程當中，所有的證件、文件都是很齊備的。"],["邱委員顯智：已經發生這麼久了，從8月底我開始質疑說這5.7億是不是農發基金出來的，到現在還是沒辦法清楚的說明白，所以現在才需要來專案報告嘛！院長，我再跟你舉個例子，你自己看，這個圖其實非常清楚，它說什麼？它說進口雞蛋包裝盒上的製造日期是臺灣的洗選日期。巴西進口雞蛋全程冷鏈跟包裝完整，效期可以達到4個月。這兩個就是衝突的嘛！為什麼？因為洗選的水溫要30度以上，院長，這很清楚！所以它怎麼有辦法在全程4個月什麼冷鏈、什麼有的沒的，所以……"],["陳院長建仁：委員，我跟你報告一下，臺灣本土產的雞蛋在洗選後，它的效期就加一個月，但是這一次因為是我們專案進口的關係，我們專案進口是從國外進來的，就看國外產地寫的截止日期……"],["邱委員顯智：院長，其實我不知道農業部有沒有跟你說實話，基本上按照衛福部，部長也在這邊嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：就是看產地的截止日期啊！"],["邱委員顯智：就是生鮮蛋品洗選作業指引，你進來是要洗選的，為什麼要洗選？他們可能要跟你說實話，總之既然要洗選，這個洗選的水溫要維持在30度以上，而且至少要高於蛋品溫度5度以上，以防止洗潔劑或者是微生物的侵襲，從蛋殼的縫進去，所以這表示說進口蛋只要一經洗選的話，基本上它根本就不能符合所謂巴西原廠得以保存120天的條件嘛！因為它上面寫說，它全程冷鏈可以達4個月，這4個月大家就已經覺得很「譀古」了，因為我之前就提出過，日本跟美國的效期也不是像這樣，好！即便按照它的說法，說什麼全程冷鏈可達4個月，但從巴西進來臺灣的時候是要洗選的，洗選的水溫就30度了嘛，所以你怎麼可以跟社會大眾講說什麼全程冷鏈可以達4個月，然後說這樣還在有效期限？這是完全錯誤的！院長。"],["陳院長建仁：我們請部長來回答。"],["邱委員顯智：不是，院長，我現在是告訴你，它的說法已經被人家打臉了……"],["陳院長建仁：沒有，你聽他講……"],["邱委員顯智：我現在就是說，你應該要了解。"],["陳院長建仁：我了解啊！"],["邱委員顯智：因為你如果按照它的說法照單全收的時候，它就是一個被調查的機關了……"],["陳院長建仁：沒有，現在……"],["邱委員顯智：所以我才跟你講說是不是由院、由政委來召集一個院的調查委員會，比照慶富案的方式，你可以給國人一個清楚的交代。最慘的狀況也不會比現在慘了嘛，你現在已經折損3個這麼重要的官員了，但是……"],["陳院長建仁：委員，我要跟你講……"],["邱委員顯智：這個不是重點，重點應該是說把這個事情釐清，而不是誰去職的問題啊！"],["陳院長建仁：委員，我完全了解你所講的，但是我要講的是，這所有的過程都是在農業部的掌控當中，關於洗選的日期等等，你不給部長講，你怎麼曉得他沒有掌握這個資料呢？給他回應一下。"],["邱委員顯智：那我直接問他啦！到底農業部有沒有就進口蛋進入到臺灣之後的洗選、運輸跟販賣的時態，去研擬能夠保障食品安全的效期？你到底有沒有去做相關的研擬？而不是說你們花錢去買雞蛋後，那些廠商通通都不用負責了，但是你進口後，你要怎麼去處理、要怎麼去洗選、要怎麼運輸、要怎麼販賣，然後才能夠保證蛋不會過期，現在買進來後，你的過期的蛋是5,000萬顆，對啊！"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員說明一下，我們從巴西進來的時候的有效期間是由業者根據它過往輸出到不同國家的不同樣態的平均值，大概120，所以他會標120天，那120天從當地國一直到我們的畜產會是全程冷鏈。"],["邱委員顯智：是嘛！"],["陳代理部長駿季：進來以後，我們是根據目前國內的慣例，洗選日當作製造日，然後一個月……"],["邱委員顯智：院長，所以你聽得懂他的意思嗎？從進來到畜產會是全程冷鏈嘛？"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["邱委員顯智：但是進來、洗選之後就不是全程冷鏈了！"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們是根據我們現在的國……沒有……"],["邱委員顯智：你怎麼還可以保證這樣的效期？"],["陳代理部長駿季：同樣的，在國內部分，我們國內的雞蛋在洗選的時候，也會有一部分的時間在冷鏈……"],["邱委員顯智：不是嘛！這樣就不是所謂的巴西進口雞蛋全程冷鏈、包裝，有效期可達四個月，對不對？你可以說你從巴西進來到畜產會全程冷鏈，這樣可以有效期四個月，對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們……"],["邱委員顯智：但是你一旦經過30℃以上的洗選之後，你就不能夠做這樣的保證了……"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想委員誤會了。"],["邱委員顯智：你沒有去做這樣研究，你怎麼可以一再保障雞蛋安全，你胡亂保證嘛！"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想有效期間120天跟全程冷鏈是兩件事情……"],["邱委員顯智：你的PowerPoint上面就是這樣寫！你自己看一下你的PowerPoint。"],["陳代理部長駿季：不是全程冷鏈之下120天，這個是兩件事情。"],["陳院長建仁：他的意思是……"],["邱委員顯智：院長，我覺得你們現在的重點是……"],["陳院長建仁：他們有考慮到從每個國家買蛋進來都有洗選的過程，所以他們就估計需要120天是包括了……"],["邱委員顯智：院長……"],["陳院長建仁：他並沒有說120天完全冷鏈。"],["邱委員顯智：我現在要講的就是，他根本就沒有針對這個保存期限去做一些研究，所以導致現在買的這些雞蛋，竟然有這麼多顆過期。你買了這麼多顆的……"],["陳院長建仁：雞蛋過期和保存沒有關係。"],["邱委員顯智：你花了5.7億，對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：不，我跟你報告……"],["邱委員顯智：到最後的結果，你是說你想要……"],["陳院長建仁：最重要的是3、4、5月進來的雞蛋，我們都能夠銷售得很好，可是6月以後，因為復養的機制起來，所以國內的生產增加了。"],["邱委員顯智：我問你一個簡單一點的，你知道巴西進口的雞蛋，這8,000萬顆幾乎都是同一批嗎？幾乎都是同一個時間生產的，到最後結果是已經有超過5,000萬顆蛋，總量近四成，你買的雞蛋有四成已經逾期了。院長，你知道嗎？在下個月初的時候，再一批的巴西蛋如果沒賣掉、過期的話，這個數量還會再更高！"],["陳院長建仁：但是我們會在它過期以前來加工、冷凍。"],["邱委員顯智：院長，你不覺得這個有問題嗎？到最後你買的蛋有四成是過期，下個月還會更高，所以現在……"],["陳院長建仁：剛才我就想跟委員報告，你說因為買雞蛋進來的時候，我們有雞蛋在庫存裡面，但是我們要考慮到雞農復養以後雞蛋的產量。"],["邱委員顯智：院長，你看一下……"],["陳院長建仁：如果我們把雞蛋釋出去的話，那麼雞農的蛋價就下降，我們沒有辦法保護雞農，所以本來調節是必要的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院長我先想請教你就是說從進口商的這個遴選那包括價格多少錢你多少錢買那合約那到最後這個雞蛋的保存然後甚至說後來大家談到有效期限那現在的進口蛋的這個流向那包括現在大量雞蛋的報廢洗產地等等一連串的爭議"},{"start":172.526,"end":177.41,"text":"那農業部過去的做的回應有說服你嗎?有把所有的問題講清楚嗎?"},{"start":180.18,"end":206.966,"text":"我覺得在相關的這個整個流向的這個掌握上面我們已經剛才已經有跟大家報告大部分的17%是這個核彈是上市然後呢大概百分之二十幾的話是這個 院長我想提醒你啦你自己看他最近這個表現這個很顯然啦你看左邊這個圖很顯然農業部的說法只能說服自己"},{"start":207.866,"end":228.819,"text":"說服不了民眾嘛所以才會有現在這個問題那為什麼民眾不願意相信農業部你看左邊這個圖他說巴西蛋被揭露保存期限標示錯誤後9月12號的時候農委會拍胸脯保證巴西專案進口蛋都在有效期限內對不對他說上午的雞蛋9月12號是這樣說的"},{"start":230.86,"end":256.153,"text":"結果呢這個實力黨團那追了好幾天之後巴西蛋去哪裡之後農委會又自己在開出來開記者會說超過五千萬輛的進口蛋預期要這個銷毀而且八成是巴西的所以你的公法從頭到尾這講法就是完全都兜不攏的這個情況之下委員"},{"start":257.406,"end":261.089,"text":"市長,您不能聽農委會的話,您應該要仔細思考。 市長,您不能聽農委會的話,您應該要仔細思考。"},{"start":277.443,"end":306.263,"text":"目前巴西專案進口雞蛋不是說上架的。（9月26日（9月27日巴西專案進口雞蛋都還在有效期限這不對嘛你過了幾天之後六天之後你又出來講說有五千萬顆已經消了不是五千顆是五千萬顆我們要看記者問這個這是他自己的簡報好院長那我先想請教"},{"start":307.003,"end":321.785,"text":"因為現在拿出來的資料也是今天專案報告也是本來就有的東西啦那其實從頭到尾一而再再而三我們一直在要求說他要提供資料但是搞到說部長已經下台了"},{"start":322.185,"end":341.262,"text":"資料還是沒辦法提供出來所以我在這邊啦我這個直接要求院長就是說是不是比照慶富案跟815的大庭見由政委行政院的政務委員召集一個專案的行政調查小組然後由院的層級來調集因為他本身就是一個被調查的機關嘛"},{"start":343.024,"end":369.105,"text":"那你就行政院來組一個專案調查小組交一個完整的報告給立法院和全體的國人來檢驗委員你想要看的報告是雞蛋流向的報告嗎不管是說從雞蛋的流向我剛剛講了從雞蛋的流向到你跟巴西的這些廠商廠商跟巴西的當地的這些人的契約等等"},{"start":369.685,"end":379.5,"text":"那還有很多的這個包括雞蛋的保存也好有效期限領選價格合約到時候他為什麼決定這個價格那他本來就是一個被調查機關嗎這個都有"},{"start":381.93,"end":407.165,"text":"這個都有一定的程序而且我們也清清楚楚的可以跟國人來做報告。你交給他備調查機關自己調查搞到最後結果就是完全沒有辦法調查了。委員我想跟你講的就是說在這整個的雞蛋採購的過程當中所有的證件文件都是很齊備的已經發生這麼久從8月底我開始質疑說這5.7億是不是農化基金出來的到現在"},{"start":408.556,"end":435.085,"text":"還是沒辦法清楚的說明白所以現在才需要來專案報告嘛院長我再給你舉個例子你自己看這一個圖其實非常清楚他說什麼他說這個進口雞蛋包裝盒上的製造日期是台灣的這個席選日期嘛對吧那呢巴西進口雞蛋全程冷鏈跟包裝完整效期可以達到4個月這兩個就是衝突的嘛"},{"start":435.985,"end":448.222,"text":"為什麼?因為這個席選的水溫要30度以上啊,一定有,這很清楚耶,所以他怎麼有辦法在全程四個月什麼冷戀什麼有的沒的,那所以..."},{"start":455.127,"end":467.202,"text":"臺灣本土產的雞蛋呢是在席選後它的效期就加一個月但是這一次因為是我們專案進口的關係我們專案進口是從國外進來就看國外的這個產地"},{"start":469.605,"end":481.713,"text":"的這個這個啊其實我不知道農業部有沒有跟你說實話啦基本上按照衛福部部長人在這邊嘛就是生鮮蛋餅選做要點你竟然要席選"},{"start":483.015,"end":483.095,"text":"國內都這樣做"},{"start":505.397,"end":522.365,"text":"所以這表示說進口蛋只要已經洗選的話根本上他根本就沒辦法符合所謂的巴西原廠得以保存120天的條件嘛因為他上面寫說他這個全程的冷鏈他可以打四個月這四個月大家都覺得已經很難過了"},{"start":524.286,"end":524.526,"text":"我們請部長來"},{"start":554.235,"end":577.912,"text":"現在是告訴他的說法已經被人家打臉了我現在就是說你應該要了解我了解啊因為你如果按照他的說法去照單簽收的時候他就是一個被調查的機關了所以我來跟你講說是不是由院由政委來召集一個院的調查委員會比較慶富案的方式那你可以給國人一個清楚的交代"},{"start":579.813,"end":579.993,"text":"委員我..."},{"start":593.359,"end":593.959,"text":"我直接問他就是說"},{"start":613.49,"end":627.686,"text":"到底這個農業部有沒有就進口蛋進入到台灣之後的席選運輸跟販賣的時態然後也你能夠保障食品安全的效期"},{"start":629.026,"end":629.486,"text":"字幕提供"},{"start":651.381,"end":673.289,"text":"我跟委員說明一下就是整個的有從我們從巴西進來的時候的有效期限是由業者那邊根據他過往輸出到不同國家的這些不同樣態的一個平均值大概100所以他會標120天那120天從當地國一直到我們的續產會是全程能練是嗎那進來了以後我們是根據現在目前"},{"start":674.865,"end":696.102,"text":"國內的一個慣例齊選是當作製造的。 院長,所以你有研究所嗎?從進來到這個洗澡這個續產會是全程冷戀嗎?但是記得你洗澡後不是全程冷戀啊!所以你怎麼還可以去保證說這樣的效期?同樣的在國內的部分,我們的國內的雞蛋在洗選的時候也會有"},{"start":696.843,"end":713.023,"text":"不是嘛那這樣就不是所謂的巴西進口雞蛋全程冷鏈包裝有效期個達四個月嘛對不對你可以說你從巴西進來到續產會全程冷鏈這樣可以有效期四個月對不對但是呢你一旦經過這個30度C以上的期選之後"},{"start":715.126,"end":715.466,"text":"以下的意思"},{"start":735.689,"end":737.511,"text":"現在要講的就是說他根本就沒有針對這個保存期限"},{"start":759.372,"end":759.712,"text":"報告。（9月24日（"},{"start":778.582,"end":794.678,"text":"通常就是3、4、5月進來的雞蛋我們都能夠銷售的很好可是6月以後因為復養的這個雞吃起來所以國內的生產增加了知道他巴西進口的雞蛋這八千萬顆幾乎都是同一批嗎?"},{"start":795.987,"end":796.207,"text":"報告並備質詢。（9月23日）"},{"start":821.178,"end":823.1,"text":"報告（9月23日（"},{"start":836.559,"end":836.839,"text":"報告並備質詢。（9月24日（"},{"start":861.986,"end":863.047,"text":"農業部扯的地方。（9月24日（9月25日（9月25日"},{"start":888.891,"end":911.381,"text":"媒體的誤解是錯誤的,第一個這個12萬顆是一個全年的平均值,那第二個部分巴西的這個8800多萬顆不是同時進來的,它是分批的,大概分成10批,所以還有不同的效率。你不要在那邊騙人啦,你幾乎都是買同樣一批同樣一個到期的蛋。沒有,絕對沒有。"},{"start":912.842,"end":929.117,"text":"幾乎都是啦那我再問你嘛農產品這些蛋的需求有可能是穩定不變動的嗎有可能嗎這是蛋的需求啦冬季夏季有可能是會變動嘛所以你買的時候你是不是要去看嘛"},{"start":936.692,"end":936.712,"text":"訊息"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}