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謝謝院長麻煩有請行政院院長陳建仁院長請陳院長黃委員早安恭喜你當選這一屆的立法委員"},{"start":39.901,"end":61.913,"text":"院長好 剛剛其實坐在下面 聆聽院長所做的口頭的施政報告當然 基於院長的職責對於蔡政府在過去這幾年各項施政的表現提出了你們的觀察只不過我剛剛在聆聽院長的高見的時候我發現整本"},{"start":63.454,"end":91.139,"text":"口頭的施政報告當中沒有提到人民很關心的四個字叫做司法改革當然行政院或許認為司法改革是司法院的職責所以院長沒有在您的施政口頭報告當中提到這個問題但是我要跟院長報告的事情是在人民對於所謂的權貴司法深惡痛絕的時候"},{"start":93.183,"end":118.649,"text":"他攸關的是在我國作為一個法治的國家是不是能夠真正發揮法律之前人人平等是不是真的能夠掃除權貴貪腐有非常高的期待的時候行政院其實責務龐大我為什麼會這樣子說呢2018年的時候當時的法務部部長邱太山"},{"start":122.226,"end":142.875,"text":"報號蕩蕩舉行一個記者會告訴台灣民眾我們有關於拿前喬氏要走入歷史所以要推動不法饋政罪影響立交易罪現在站在您身旁的蔡清祥部長"},{"start":143.851,"end":169.254,"text":"在接續的幾年當中不管是在國會還是在記者會都做出相同莊嚴的承諾我要請教部長的是現在拿錢喬事已經走入歷史了嗎相關的法規法務部很早就提出一個法案出來什麼時候提到行政院會什麼時候提給行政院的"},{"start":170.12,"end":194.728,"text":"就是有關貪瀆的部分那我們在我們講全部一百那個我跟部長交換一下觀念齁我們討論問題的時候就是論事具體特定齁這樣子全國的民眾才會知道我們在討論什麼2018年邱炭山告訴全國民眾拿錢喬事要走入歷史我剛剛的問題是走入歷史了嗎顯然沒有嘛"},{"start":195.779,"end":217.836,"text":"因為相關的不法規正罪影響力交易罪在圖上看得很清楚啊這個就是邱泰山旁邊的看板這是2018年的時候給全國人民所提出來的莊嚴承諾現在走入歷史了嗎你說法務部有提法案給行政院我的問題很具體不法規正罪影響力交易罪什麼時候提的"},{"start":219.689,"end":230.258,"text":"我們是對刑法相關的法條一起在108年提到行政院108年提到行政院 現在幾年啊現在幾年啊現在是民國幾年啊"},{"start":236.84,"end":261.725,"text":"現在是2024年民國113年我請教一下院長對於行政院在處理這些相關法案的速度院長你滿不滿意我想這個所有的法案都需要經過相關的研議我了解相當的研議社會要有共識好針對制定不法規正罪影響力交易罪這個社會有人反對嗎"},{"start":263.557,"end":287.862,"text":"我想這樣的一個法律的部分在當時確實是法務部邀請了學者專家跟實務界的部分有開會來研商甚至在112年12月18日的時候還有開會在研商所以我們會積極的研商努力的研商來我具體的問然後達到了這個議員長在你離開行政院以前這個草案有辦法送到立法院來嗎我換句話問蔡總統"},{"start":290.743,"end":302.892,"text":"蔡總統他的承諾在他下任以前有辦法履行嗎研議了6年多了研議了6年多了一個法案行政院提不出來推給"},{"start":304.261,"end":304.581,"text":"我們努力以赴"},{"start":327.574,"end":353.556,"text":"所以還是沒有辦法承諾嗎沒有關係我這一步也請教院長法務部部長針對檢察官在具體個案裡面下指示要不要上訴要不要認罪協商要不要起訴這是法務部部長可以幹的嗎可以做這樣的事嗎請教院長不可以"},{"start":354.608,"end":372.202,"text":"如果做了這樣子的事情請問在我國法裡面目前有什麼處罰在這個部分的話我想黃國昌可以來回答行政的處罰當然我們會按照當然講的不是行政的處罰我當然講的是刑事的處罰這麼嚴重的事情院長你認不認為應該要有刑事處罰院長"},{"start":376.403,"end":391.485,"text":"這個是基本態度的問題喔剛剛院長已經說不應該了嘛那基本態度的問題我今天請教院長不會問院長很多法學技術性的問題啦但是人民要展開基本的態度這樣子的行為應不應該受刑事處罰"},{"start":393.439,"end":416.861,"text":"我想我不是法學的專家那這一個部分我覺得這樣的做法是不好那該行政處罰我直接跟院長報告這件事情根本就應該要接受刑事處罰我下一個具體的問題就是這樣子關說司法的行為到目前為止妨礙司法公正罪請問行政院的版本什麼時候要提出來"},{"start":419.503,"end":445.74,"text":"防礙司法公正罪的這一個部分也是目前還在本院在持續研議當中然後我們是預計在今年的2月26日會開第11次的審查會議所以我們確實有在努力的來凝聚各界的共識然後積極來推動修法所以我當然也希望我直接請教院長我們剛剛所講的影響力交易罪"},{"start":446.681,"end":456.188,"text":"不法規正罪是你施改國事會議的結論是是我們在聯合國反貪腐工業下面所應該履行的義務是"},{"start":458.795,"end":470.058,"text":"為什麼延宕這麼久一波再波誰在阻擋誰在阻擋所以如果不是有人在阻擋是現在的蔡政府沒有能力針對這些應該要處罰的事項提出規範的準則嗎繼續努力嗎在這個立法院裡面"},{"start":486.789,"end":511.817,"text":"全台灣人都知道一件事只有民進黨不想過的沒有民進黨過不了在新的國會之前有太多爭議的法案在這邊發生我相信院長你心知肚明但沒有關係沒有關係你們如果提出法案立法院沒有過是立法院的責任但當行政院連自己基本的法案"},{"start":512.898,"end":540.211,"text":"都沒有提出來而且這是在施改國事會議凝聚的共識而且這是我國在聯合國反貪腐工業下面所負的義務延宕了這麼多年延宕了這麼多年我再跟院長反映非常多市井小民非常多市井小民的心聲在這個國家是不是法律之前人人平等還是這個原則"},{"start":542.554,"end":543.595,"text":"我想你剛才講的"},{"start":558.232,"end":581.676,"text":"法律權人人平等這件事情我完全同意那至於你說有些大官深入這個修法我想在修法的過程當中我們都是嚴謹的來討論建立共識我說的是有大官把手伸到司法裡面去關說司法這件事情應該要被處罰這個是法治國家的共識了啦站在你旁邊的法務部部長蔡清祥我相信非常的清楚嘛"},{"start":582.608,"end":591.02,"text":"但是在我國我們號稱民主法治的國家這麼離譜的事情到目前為止沒有刑事處罰"},{"start":592.304,"end":614.786,"text":"而我們的行政院面對人民一再的詢問永遠達到千篇一律的答案就是還在研議當中包括我剛剛所講的發案司法公正罪、影響力交易罪以及大家都很關心的棄保潛逃罪一個一個權貴跑掉我們束手無策"},{"start":615.609,"end":640.447,"text":"還有上一次在上屆國會的時候我相信院長印象還很深刻一樣站在我這個位置是由陳焦華委員提出質詢的吹哨者保護法到底還要延宕多久這些法案我利用總質詢的時間再次的跟院長報告這是人民很關心的施改法案"},{"start":641.465,"end":655.844,"text":"這是人民對我國的司法是不是可以有信心對我國的司法是不是能夠信任非常關鍵的事情院長你說要繼續研議那我只有給院長一個卑微的請求"},{"start":656.305,"end":677.839,"text":"希望希望院長在卸任以前這些法案可以順利的送到立法院好緊密的保護這個部分我們是由行政跟立法兩個這個雙軌來並行那這個修法的部分我們會積極來審議進展沒有關係啦因為今天是總質詢的時間至於說你們在行政上面的作為有沒有做好"},{"start":678.92,"end":706.415,"text":"吹哨者保護或接壁者保護我們接下來得到委員會開議的時候我會拿具體的案子一個一個到委員會去請教相關的部會詐騙是台灣人民的痛苦台灣人民深受詐騙所苦我想院長這個你應該可以同意我同意而且這不是台灣的問題這全世界都面臨這樣的問題我們在2022年7月的時候我們成立一個打詐國家隊"},{"start":708.635,"end":734.929,"text":"2023年5月的時候又成立了打詐辦公室全國的人民都看到包括院長在內包括很多部長在內大家都減產都很希望我們這些打詐國家隊打詐辦公室成立以後可以有效的遏阻詐騙來請問一下院長對過去這兩年我們打詐國家隊成立了以後打詐的成效院長滿不滿意"},{"start":737.29,"end":761.559,"text":"在打造國家隊成立以後呢我們確實有不錯的成果那我舉個例子齁像我們這一個剛才我在施政報告當中已經有講過我們有查緝到了1400多個這一個詐騙的集團人在施政報告裡面查扣不罰所得多少錢院長還記得嗎有40 41億嘛 41億那院長你知道總詐騙的金額是多少嗎"},{"start":763.062,"end":787.879,"text":"總詐騙的金額我想大概目前我沒有統計到沒有關係我問問題一向是就事論事而且有具體的數字我馬上就秀給院長看好來我們在2022年7月以前我往前算一年打詐國家隊成立以前"},{"start":789.09,"end":813.438,"text":"我們詐欺案件發生數平均每個月是2219件打詐國家隊成立以後在打詐辦公室成立以前平均是2597件繼續成長打詐辦公室成立以後到去年年底2023年年底我們平均每月是3541件"},{"start":816.394,"end":830.656,"text":"大家都在問大家都在問我們的政府不斷的成立新的國家隊新的辦公室也挹注了非常多的預算我們所看到的我們所看到"},{"start":832.17,"end":857.18,"text":"詐騙案件的件數是一律飆升這個還是警政署的統計數字喔我還沒有把黑數放在這裡面對 所以委員你講得很好詐騙案件數目的發生呢實際上是來自於這一個通報的部分是扮演一個很重要的假設所以呢 通常大部分的國家可以放在這一個打炸辦公室以後呢"},{"start":857.72,"end":860.442,"text":"我具體的請教你在打詐國家隊成立以前人民被詐騙卻沒有通報的理由是什麼"},{"start":884.076,"end":907.67,"text":"是覺得通報也沒有用交給這個政府通報也做不了案嗎很重要的就是說你有沒有好好的宣導讓人民知道他有怎麼樣的通報的自己有沒有被詐騙自己還會不知道我還需要透過政府的宣導才知道我被詐騙我受到什麼害容院長您提這樣子的解釋會不會太奇怪不奇怪這個全世界都是一樣如果你看到好我們繼續每個月"},{"start":913.503,"end":920.126,"text":"詐欺財損的金額我在這邊跟院長報告我們從2019年42.93億元平均每個月3.58億 院長可以看得出來嗎 一路飆升到2023年年底的時候已經是88.79億元"},{"start":932.671,"end":958.321,"text":"然後平均每個月損失是7.39億元剛剛院長說查扣不法所得超過41億請問您在施政報告裡面請問您在施政報告裡面所謂查扣不法所得超過41億那個時間的基準是什麼那個是從這個打造辦公室成立以來到現在為止所以從打造辦公室成立以來我們就從2022年算嘛"},{"start":960.356,"end":978.712,"text":"七十二點七十三點二八一八十八點二九一以到目前為止好沒有關係我就光以什麼光以二零二三年來看我光以二零二三年來看我受這些數字我很誠懇的跟院長報告我其實不是要給執政團隊難看"},{"start":980.523,"end":1007.96,"text":"真的不是要給執政團隊難看但是在這個社會上有很多人他們被詐騙了以後求助無門導致對於政府的信心不足我想舉一個舉一個最清楚的案子院長絕對聽說過就是IMB的詐騙案IMB的詐騙案那麼多被詐騙的被害人"},{"start":1009.025,"end":1030.317,"text":"我陪同他們在一起希望能夠幫他們找尋正義的過程當中他們卻發現了什麼樣的事情他們卻發現的事情是說當他們向權責機關報案權責機關不處理部長您知不知道R&B的被害人最早向檢調單位報案是什麼時間"},{"start":1032.093,"end":1037.96,"text":"我跟部長報告從2017年開始2018年2019年他們都有呈報他們被詐騙說這家公司有問題拜託我們的檢調趕快介入部長你知道我們檢調什麼時候介入嗎"},{"start":1054.204,"end":1080.161,"text":"他們辦案的時候這麼大的案子啦我相信部長掌握得很清楚啦不會連這個都搞不清楚R&B詐騙的案子真的開始進行偵辦是什麼時候2023年我要反映的是什麼這跟黑素沒有關係啊這跟檢調不知道也沒有關係啊人民已經告訴檢調我被詐騙了我們是受害人啊結果檢調消極不處理"},{"start":1082.54,"end":1110.933,"text":"到2023年喔到2023年整個詐騙集團沒有辦法再支撐下去了要崩解之前檢調才開始積極介入調查甚至連起訴的時候IMB起訴的裁判品質我那個時候仍回到了公民社會我沒有任何的公權力我沒有任何的公權力但我陪那些被害人在尋找真相的過程當中"},{"start":1111.994,"end":1135.845,"text":"我發現檢察官的裁判品質啊慘不忍睹在桃園那邊查扣的不乏所得明明只有持份兩百分之一好大喜功發布新聞稿跟所有的被害人講在那個地方我們查扣的不乏所得不動產的價值有三億多結果換算下來剩多少不曉得您知道嗎"},{"start":1137.452,"end":1146.635,"text":"您知不知道臺北地檢署是在我公開批判這個案子以後才去修改他們的起訴書部長這件事情您知道嗎"},{"start":1148.395,"end":1176.01,"text":"個案的情節我不會全部的了解因為當一個法務部長不會啦 這個事情你很了解我為什麼敢說你很了解R&B個案的案子啊你在上一屆國會司法法制委員會的時候你被詢過幾次啊這麼多的委員關心怎麼會不了解R&B的被害人他們跑去跟我們政府相關機關投訴無門求助的時候他們看到的是什麼"},{"start":1176.852,"end":1188.628,"text":"他們看到的是當他們要求減掉基期偵辦的時候減掉消極不作為他們看到的是什麼他們看到的是這些詐騙主嫌"},{"start":1189.707,"end":1215.032,"text":"跟我們的高官跟我們的權貴剛籌交錯還提供免費的車子還提供免費的房舍讓我們的前立法委員以及蔡英文作為宜蘭那邊後援會的場所部長院長將心比心你們如果是這些被害人看在他們眼裡你們會對台灣的司法有信任嗎"},{"start":1217.352,"end":1229.87,"text":"你們會對台灣的司法有信任嗎台灣的司法台灣的檢調我們的法務部給這些被害人傳遞的訊息是什麼是法律之前仍然平等嗎 院長"},{"start":1231.008,"end":1249.303,"text":"我想跟委員再報告一下就是這IMB的這個詐騙案是在112年的8月29日就偵查終結等一下我先提一下 院長您剛講得非常好112年的8月就偵查終結所以我才剛開始問嘛這些被害人向檢調求助的時間點是什麼時候"},{"start":1252.165,"end":1268.562,"text":"院長不知道沒關係所以我請教部長如果連部長都不知道我在國會的殿堂負責任的跟大家講他們開始報案的時候是什麼時候到2023年8月的時候才貞節起訴院長您不覺得遲延太久了嗎"},{"start":1270.008,"end":1296.336,"text":"這個偵查的過程這個個案我不是很了解但是我想我們檢調單位都是依法在偵辦我們尊重這個檢察官的這個職權好沒有關係我們接下來是不是真的要好好做我們具體的來看我現在講的都是行政院的權責司法院有問題我一定批評司法院我不會把司法院的鍋甩給行政院但"},{"start":1299.957,"end":1328.297,"text":"我們台灣高檢署去年花了1.18億買M化車部長知不知道買M化車要做什麼他們在辦案過程有需要利用這種科技的設備來看他的位置所在所以M化車是一個虛擬的基地台嘛對吧他對於偵辦詐騙案件重不重要重要對於偵辦組織犯罪重不重要重要也重要但部長"},{"start":1329.773,"end":1332.194,"text":"M化車收集的證據有證據能力嗎有證據能力嗎部長"},{"start":1357.045,"end":1374.394,"text":"我直接跟您報告我相信您應該很清楚最高法院最高法院在110年台上4549號刑事判決就是2022年2022年不是2023年2022年最高法院就已經形成了什麼法律見解"},{"start":1375.834,"end":1400.682,"text":"當我們的最高法院所M化車所採集的資訊沒有證據能力的時候因為他沒有法律授權的基礎我判決的字號都寫在上面部長我絕對不會騙你的你有什麼樣的意見給他進一步的補充那我就好奇囉當M化車所採集的證據依照我們最高法院的判決沒有法律授權的基礎"},{"start":1402.11,"end":1410.409,"text":"沒有證據能力我們繼續花錢買M化車所為何來跟委員說明利用科技的設備來"},{"start":1411.718,"end":1417.76,"text":"剛剛你所講的至於證據能力夠不夠這句話容我修正一下證據能力只有有無的問題沒有夠不夠的問題證據能力是有還是沒有"},{"start":1434.304,"end":1456.971,"text":"不是證明力證明力跟證據能力是兩個不同的概念我相信部長當檢察官很久非常清楚我的問題是什麼我的問題是當M化車所蒐集到的證據沒有證據能力的時候我們還繼續買M化車做什麼但是M化車有助於我們相關的偵查沒有錯所以關鍵的問題是什麼關鍵的問題是"},{"start":1462.162,"end":1483.408,"text":"不是繼續買M化車而是讓M化車所收集的證據有證據能力這樣才有助於犯罪的偵查訴追以及後面的審判我為什麼秀這個最高法院的判決給院長看是因為這個最高法院的判決出來了以後結果下一期審法院人就放了"},{"start":1484.312,"end":1485.773,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":1505.319,"end":1531.285,"text":"因為M化車所收集的證據沒有證據能力結果這些人：法院無罪釋放了耶院長你可以接受這個結果嗎我想在當時的：過程我不清楚但是利用M化車這樣的一個科技再加強剛才講的進一步去查證是很重要的我剛剛問題是說這些人就因為這樣被放走了 院長你可以接受嗎"},{"start":1532.982,"end":1536.245,"text":"請問行政院偵查科技法的法案什麼時候提到立法院"},{"start":1559.11,"end":1584.823,"text":"科技偵查法現在也在我們研議的過程當中還在繼續研議嘛人都已經因為這個樣子被無作放走了院長也沒辦法接受部長也沒辦法接受全體國人都沒辦法接受也知道重點在什麼在法源說得非常好啊所以我才請教嘛所以我才請教嘛不管你是要修德國像德國一樣修刑事訴訟法"},{"start":1586.401,"end":1592.467,"text":"這種科技偵查的手段在德國是規範在行事訴訟法當中我相信部長非常清楚還是"},{"start":1593.874,"end":1622.372,"text":"向政府的政策要去訂科技偵查法立法的形式人民不關心人民關心的事情是什麼這些詐騙份子這些黑幫是不是可以被繩之以法這才是人民關心的問題所以我一開始就跟院長講我在乎的不是只有花這1.18億去買個M化車M化車當然對警察對檢察官有幫助嘛要不然台灣高檢署怎麼會編預算去買M化車一定有幫助嘛"},{"start":1623.137,"end":1648.489,"text":"但我們作為掌握權力的人我們需要知道我們需要認識的不是有幫助三個字而已我們需要知道的是什麼這如果是偵查詐騙這如果是打擊犯罪組織我們必要的手段但收集來的證據卻沒有證據能力導致這些作奸犯科的人現在還在外面趴趴照"},{"start":1649.913,"end":1674.072,"text":"現在還在外面趴趴照我們該做的事情是什麼就趕快賦予他法源的基礎嘛院長你同不同意我同意您同意但結果相關的法案目前還在行政院研議當中請問還要研議多久我想我們會盡快的來繼續盡快嘛好我們拭目以待今天院長在立法院所做的宣示啊全國人民啊都聽到了好來"},{"start":1675.58,"end":1677.443,"text":"接下來 重放 詐騙洗錢辦的責任 什麼時候要追究"},{"start":1681.975,"end":1710.854,"text":"是請對於這個科技偵查法我們因為當時在審議的過程當中確實有不同的意見但是我想有一些事情可能到送到大院來的時候也需要大院的大力支持我剛說過了啦行政院送法案來立法院不認真審沒有通過認為不合理的沒有提對案那是立法委員的承認那是立法委員代質我們全體國人譴責立委不認真立法"},{"start":1712.711,"end":1738.2,"text":"當行政院沒有送法案來的時候院長恕我直言那就是行政院的責任我們加緊的努力好重放詐騙洗錢犯的責任何時追究過去這一年多啊全體國人看的是目瞪口呆啊在我國三大幫詐欺集團洗錢的首腦包括郭哲銘、小民、中興化"},{"start":1739.953,"end":1764.021,"text":"吳承文三大幫詐欺集團的洗錢犯每個洗錢的金額都超過上百億都超過上百億結果在我國的刑事司法制度神奇的是什麼神奇的是解決要抓人的時候都有消息先跑了而這三大洗錢犯阿他們還有一個共通的特徵阿他們都設招待所而且他們設的招待所"},{"start":1765.407,"end":1766.347,"text":"都在檢察官的偵查當中"},{"start":1787.81,"end":1810.991,"text":"阿在偵查嘛好 那我就問囉 尊重檢察官的偵查那我幫很多被害人反映一下他們的心聲阿當他們看到的事阿不僅僅是警察阿連檢察官都出入這些招待所欸部長你應該很清楚阿我剛所講的這三大洗錢犯阿郭哲銘"},{"start":1812.618,"end":1829.671,"text":"吳承文瑞森銀樓有沒有檢察官去過有沒有我們有查過啦有嘛好那請問去的檢察官受到什麼懲處我們送監察院就法務部啦就法務部請問給的這個檢察官什麼懲處什麼時候送監察院的請問兩個問題請部長慢慢依序"},{"start":1855.267,"end":1855.348,"text":"謝謝黃委員 國昌"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}