{"error":false,"id":["149115"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149115,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149115","日期":"2024-02-20","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"院會-11-1-1","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期第1次會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":1,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"院會","標題":"立法院第11屆第1會期第1次會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-02-20T15:17:43+08:00","結束時間":"2024-02-20T15:34:02+08:00","影片長度":"00:16:19","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1642863e6d7b33d4920360784953e35ed783c41c18e7293cf8ba9b0039caa7a6a67baeb4ac1f6ae45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"15:17:43 - 15:34:02","會議時間":"2024-02-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第1次會議（事由：行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告並備質詢）","gazette":{"lineno":274,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（15時17分）謝謝院長。有請行政院陳建仁院長。"],["主席：請陳院長備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：莊委員，恭喜你連任，午安。"],["莊委員瑞雄：謝謝院長，院長辛苦了！院長，大家說你是個暖男，剛剛傅崐萁總召，國民黨的傅委員在這邊提的一些議題，對你多所請教的時候，其實你隨便聽聽就好了，怎麼說隨便聽聽就好？因為我剛好坐在那邊，我簡直是聽不下去了。他剛剛在騙你，你知道嗎？他放的影片是放2009年的。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["莊委員瑞雄：2009年民主進步黨發動一個大型街頭抗議的活動。當然，當初美牛要進口，馬政府當年要進口，後來呢？民進黨捍衛整個食品的安全，對這一些含有萊克多巴胺的肉品當然有疑慮。到了2012年7月5號，在義大利羅馬國際食品法典委員會召開會議，然後美國去提案，到最後是69比67，以兩票之差通過了牛跟豬在整個肉品裡面萊克多巴胺殘餘值的含量標準到底是多少，通過以後，民進黨想到，一個國家要治理，你要去跟國際上接軌，我們的態度才隨著改變的。"],["陳院長建仁：沒有錯。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以小傅剛剛在拐你，你知不知道？我聽到都覺得不好意思，你知道嗎？但要體諒他啦！他昨天就說他感冒，感冒藥吃太多了，以後我們在這個地方開會的時候，我建議，立法委員也是人，也會生病啊！萬一在質詢的時候發燒、頭暈，不然你也幫他看個醫生。但是我在這個地方除了針對剛剛傅委員的偷換概念以外，我倒也要來請教我們陳院長，民眾對政府的要求其實也很簡單，在臺灣我看我們大部分去接觸到的都希望經濟可以持續地發展、治安可以做得好，然後政府的作為能夠讓老百姓心安，尤其是食品的安全啦！以這次來看的話，我看這個月初，甚至到今天院長來做報告的時候，在野黨的抗爭都跟豬肉有關係啦！臺灣對食安的重視程度之高啊！你去把它回想一下，過去的馬政府三聚氫胺、塑化劑、地溝油接二連三這樣的爆發其實是重創人民對政府的信任，還好啊！這次臺中所驗出來這部分，連臺中市政府現在也認為是個案。"],["陳院長建仁：單一事件。"],["莊委員瑞雄：但是我都覺得這個是一個懸案，大家一起來關注整個食安的議題，本席認為是好事，但沒有任何人比院長更適合來處理這件事情啦！院長是個科學家，我相信有多少證據我們講多少的話，所以我要請教院長幾個問題，也希望院長再次詳細向社會大眾來做說明，就是這一塊肉這一次驗出來，現在外界大家說是天選之肉，中央在2月2號接獲通知以後，馬上去啟動跨部會調查跟下架的機制，然後啟動全面溯源的檢驗。到了2月4號的晚上，你檢驗來源畜牧場調查的血液、毛髮、飼料、屠宰加工廠等檢體，還有去下架這一些產品，那很奇怪！就是全部都驗不到。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["莊委員瑞雄：院長，我們以前到底有這樣的案例嗎？衛福部部長，我們以前有這樣的案例嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有說只有一塊有驗到的。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你不覺得奇怪嗎？我到現在還覺得奇怪！"],["薛部長瑞元：所以就很奇怪。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你們也覺得奇怪？"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：那就好玩啦！民間覺得奇怪，政府也覺得奇怪，豬活體的時候是有血的，血管耶！照理說一直流、流、流，血管正常去運作，應該一塊肉到什麼地方去，就算我有去練什麼神功，我也沒辦法把有西布特羅的變到我手指頭這裡，別的都沒有，只有這塊有，所以我覺得非常奇怪的一個地方，就是你不能去講他是千面人，這樣基層公務人員驗出來，我們覺得會對他是一種打擊，也不好。","我本來要請法務部是不是可以去做一個調查，後來想一想這個茲事體大，我就不敢給你們提案，你知不知道？因為法務部貿然一下去的話，又跟你說你國家機器在打壓臺中市的公務人員，所以政府也動輒得咎，但是讓老百姓心安本來就是政府的責任，所以還是要讓它水落石出，不要說這隻豬啦！今天如果我莊瑞雄去賣1萬包的冬瓜茶，裡面9,999包都沒事，只有1包出現在臺中，人家就說這是千面人啦！這又涉及到不同政黨在執政，政府又不敢去亂講，可是問題就是說到底真相會是什麼？"],["陳院長建仁：我想真相就是剛才已經講過，在所有877件樣品檢查的結果統統是沒有，但是就只有在臺中市政府實驗室的那一塊豬肉可以檢查出來西布特羅，而且那一個實驗室也剛好有進口量很少的西布特羅在那裡，當然我們在整個檢驗的過程當中，就要去瞭解到底有沒有任何污染的可能性，因為這件事情是發生在臺中市政府的檢驗單位，這個單位是擁有最完整的紀錄跟資料，所以應該由臺中市政府在我們衛福部推薦的這些專家來指導的情況下去瞭解，這也就是為什麼我們在2月21號會開專家會議，請專家來瞭解整個檢驗還有所有實驗的過程。"],["莊委員瑞雄：本席剛剛列舉了從過去馬政府時代爆發那麼多食安的醜聞還有食安的事件，到現在蔡政府執政快8年的時候，你可以去做比較食安這個議題，因為過去爆發了這樣重大的問題，然後重創了政府的公信力，所以我們的政府非常注重。"],["陳院長建仁：沒有錯，有食安五環。"],["莊委員瑞雄：要去保障整個食安的安全，我相信除了產業自律、政府的管理、查驗跟民間共同參與以外，這個沒有讓它水落石出，民眾還是不安心啦！"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["莊委員瑞雄：可是我要問的是，我們的業者很自律耶！各地方你看那個養豬協會都跳出來說：「我們很自律」。我覺得那隻豬也很倒楣，你知道嗎？那隻豬被人家吃掉之後，現在大家誤會牠是不是自己去吃到西布特羅，豬是不會講話而已啊，不然我覺得牠也很冤枉啊！院長，這個一定不是豬自己吃的，你知道嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我同意。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我覺得人為啦！但這個人為是故意，這不太可能，因為地方政府也在保障食安，它哪有可能故意？那有沒有可能是過失？你說實驗室的一個污染？快一點啦！院長，我們時間要快一點啦！"],["陳院長建仁：如果故意污染的話濃度不會只有0.002ppm。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是，這不可能嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：0.002ppm是很低、很低的濃度，按照所有的專家，做過分析化學的專家來做的話，這種是不小心污染到一點點西布特羅的可能性是最高，這也就是為什麼我們需要請懂得實驗的專家去瞭解。而整個臺中市政府檢驗的SOP標準作業流程，實際上是不錯的，要不然它檢驗的結果不會和食藥署的是一樣。但現在是那一塊豬肉怎麼樣得到西布特羅？剛才講過，全臺灣789毫克的西布特羅就只有在24家實驗室，所以任何豬肉會有西布特羅檢驗出來，一定跟西布特羅所在的地方有關係嘛，這是很簡單的邏輯推理。所以我們就要看為什麼在這一個實驗室裡面會檢驗到西布特羅？當然，有一種情形就是實驗操作的過程當中有不小心的污染，而其他的實驗室裡面我們都沒有看到，但是它也有西布特羅，是很少量西布特羅，並沒有污染。而且那個測出量那麼低，一般的專家來看的話，就是有這一個污染，檢驗過程當中的操作有瑕疵……"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以院長你的意思就是說臺灣的豬肉安啦！"],["陳院長建仁：很安心啦！"],["莊委員瑞雄：吃就對啦？"],["陳院長建仁：因為所有檢驗過的，不管是在飼養場或者是屠宰場、加工廠，或者是從市場的產品去檢驗，通通沒有檢出西布特羅。"],["莊委員瑞雄：好，院長，那我這樣這樣講，我這樣要求啦！我們除了中央跟地方去把它還原，還有專家去調查以外，是不是我們中央政府在這個地方，可以為了避免以後再發生這種事……其實保障整個食安，讓老百姓更安心，中央跟地方大家一起來嘛，是不是可以去協助它？整個實驗室以後的一個檢驗，怎麼樣建立更完整的SOP，還有整個還原的一個機制，不然下次又發生一件，大家又在那邊吵了，好不好？"],["陳院長建仁：好。這部分實際上，在我們後續的這個計畫裡面，除了加強實驗的技術能量以外，更重要的就是我們養豬的單位也要來做檢查，而且食藥署也會加強豬肉「瘦肉精」的檢查，從每年2,000件增加到4,000件，就像委員所要求的一樣，我們會努力來做好，讓民眾可以放心。"],["莊委員瑞雄：好，謝謝院長的答復，兩位部長請回。我請我們教育部潘部長還有財政部莊部長、金管會主委。","院長，後天就是我們2025年亞洲盃籃球賽資格賽，我們的國家隊要在主場和平籃球場迎戰紐西蘭。照理來講，這幾天已經是賽事比賽前，是訓練充足、士氣高昂的時候，但我看到曾經為國家立下多次汗馬功勞的國手─劉錚發了一個臉書感嘆，國家隊的老問題歸化、保險問題都沒有處理好，要球員怎麼樣專心全力的為國來爭光？我有一個很大的感觸，我們都知道運動員的職業生涯，不太長啦！部長，實在是不太長啦！可能一個傷勢以後就讓他的職業生涯報銷掉了，所以運動員代表國家其實是一場賭注，常常是一場賭注，賭自己可以平安健康，但體育的競技裡面，在運動中常常受傷都很正常的，過去就不只一次國手參加國際賽受傷。","本席來舉兩個例子，有一位棒球好手羅嘉仁，他在2015年代表我國參加世界賽時受傷，賽季就全部報銷掉了，還好那個時候有跟保險公司協議，理賠金額會按照他的月薪去給付，所以他可以延續他的職業生涯到現在；但同樣是國手，我們另外1位籃球好手叫張宗憲，他也曾經拿過美國大學籃球最優秀的球員，前兩年也在我們臺灣的職業聯賽裡面拿過MVP，他在2017年效力我們中華隊的時候，在友誼賽時手指斷掉了，提前回來治療就沒有人聞問，從找醫生、治療整個過程都自己來，讓他澈底地挫折，他說我以後不要再加入什麼中華隊了。最近的保險事件爆發以後，也讓他在社群裡面感嘆，他說從他20歲開始打中華隊，15年過去了，從單身的大學生到當父親了，還在吵一樣的東西啊！所以本席想請教院長跟部長，有沒有掌握這次事件？因為2天後就要開打了，球員保險最新的進度又是怎樣？來，部長。"],["潘部長文忠：謝謝委員關切選手保險的相關問題，也跟委員報告，因為我們兩個主要的運動，一個是棒球、一個是籃球都有透過職業聯盟的選手來參賽，職業聯盟的選手過去在保險上面確實碰到一些瓶頸，尤其是籃協、籃球的這部分，而棒球我們已經發展出一套模式來了，所以現在幫籃球選手保的保險都是因為他們選手有個別高低不同的……薪資，就如剛剛委員所關切，但是他們又保密，在這種情況之下……"],["莊委員瑞雄：沒有、沒有，部長，我跟你講……"],["潘部長文忠：我跟委員報告，最新我們就是希望……"],["莊委員瑞雄：不是這樣啦！我沒有騙你啦！他們的薪資我都知道，你們哪有可能不知道啦！你看職業隊，以劉錚為例，他公開合約的月薪差不多375萬，你若讓他保3萬，讓他加入中華隊，他又不是傻了！保險3萬，以後受傷才賠3萬哪裡合理？你說他不公開，他哪是不公開，你們本來是2萬到3萬而已，今天體育署說要5萬。我覺得這樣不好啦！加入我們國家隊是他的責任，他也覺得是一種榮譽，可是權利跟義務到底到哪裡？你們這部分是不是可以不要只聽協會的……"],["潘部長文忠：是，我跟委員說……"],["莊委員瑞雄：你們好像協會提款機，你知道嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：我跟委員補充報告，因為這次劉錚隊長確實有感而發，體育署鄭署長非常積極地包含跟工會這邊去瞭解，也發現棒球都可以有一個好的保險制度，在棒球的這部分……"],["莊委員瑞雄：是啊，你們就把它抄過來就好了啊！"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告，我們最新就是……"],["莊委員瑞雄：你們就把它抄過來就好了！"],["潘部長文忠：對、對，現在就會……"],["莊委員瑞雄：我為什麼請部長跟主委上來，我們也來仿照棒球，我們來設計商品，不然你說商業公司不行，我們國營事業像是兆豐還是華南，金管會主委這邊也可以協助他們設計一些商品，以國家的力量、政府的力量去支持挹注，不然你們說體力就是國力，結果我們就沒有支持啊！"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告，我們會往這樣的方向來做對球員……"],["莊委員瑞雄：做得不夠啦！政府幫忙支持好不好？你們知道海洋潛水是誰做的、誰協助的嗎？竟然是你們海委會的管碧玲、管媽、管主委啊！"],["陳院長建仁：對啊！"],["莊委員瑞雄：可以一起來做的，好不好？"],["潘部長文忠：好。"],["莊委員瑞雄：不然這真的漏氣了！這實在是……部長，勇於任事，但這件事情真的要把它做好，部長跟主委協助一下，好不好？"],["潘部長文忠：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：好，謝謝。"],["潘部長文忠：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝莊委員瑞雄的質詢。","接下來請洪委員孟楷。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":236,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-1","speakers":["韓國瑜","黃國昌","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","莊瑞雄","洪孟楷","許智傑","林思銘"],"page_start":22,"meetingDate":["2024-02-20"],"gazette_id":"1130401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130401_00003","1130401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第 11 屆第 1 會期第 1 次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告並備質詢─ 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地勾油接著連山這樣的一個爆發其實是對重創人民對政府的一個信任還好這是台中所驗出來這部分連台中市政府現在認為說是個個案但是我都覺得這個是一個懸案大家一起來關注整個食安的一個議題本席認為是好事"},{"start":207.585,"end":218.531,"text":"但沒有任何人比院長來處理這件事情更適合院長是個科學家我相信有多少證據我們講多少的話所以我要請教"},{"start":219.602,"end":247.972,"text":"院長幾個問題也希望院長再次詳細向社會大眾來做一個說明就是說這一塊肉這一次驗出來大家現在外界說是天選之肉這個在中央在2月2號的時候接過通知以後馬上去啟動跨部會的調查跟下架的一個機制然後啟動全面的溯源的一個檢驗到了2月4號的一個晚上你檢驗來源的畜牧場調查的血液毛髮飼料屠宰加工廠等檢體"},{"start":249.392,"end":250.052,"text":"民間也奇怪政府也說奇怪"},{"start":275.371,"end":277.032,"text":"所以我就覺得非常奇怪的一個地方就是說"},{"start":296.308,"end":316.629,"text":"你不能去講他說是簽名人這樣對基層公務人員驗出來我們覺得會對他是一種打擊也不好我本來要請說法務部是不是可以去做一個調查後來想一想這個知識體大我怎麼不敢給你提案你知道嗎因為我後來貿然一下去就要跟你說你國家機器在打壓台中市的公務人員"},{"start":318.604,"end":346.303,"text":"所以政府也動輒得咎但是讓老百姓心安本來就政府的責任啦所以還是要讓他水落石出啊不要說這隻是豬啦今天如果我莊瑞雄去買一萬包的當歸地裡面喔九千、九百、九十、九百都沒問題只有一包出人家台中人家就說那千面人了啦這又涉及到不同政黨在執政政府又不敢去亂講可是問題就是說到底真相會是什麼"},{"start":347.483,"end":376.429,"text":"我想真相就是剛才已經講過在所有877件的樣品檢查的結果通通是沒有但是就只有在臺中市政府的實驗室的那一塊豬肉可以檢查出來西部特洛而且那一個實驗室也剛好有那個進口量很少的西部特洛在那裡那當然我們在整個檢驗的過程當中就要去了解到底有沒有任何可能污染的可能性"},{"start":378.329,"end":397.874,"text":"這件事情因為事情是發生在臺中市政府的檢驗單位這個單位是擁有最完整的紀錄跟資料所以應該由臺中市政府在我們衛福部推薦的這些專家來指導的情況下去了解這也就是為什麼我們在2月21號會開專家會議請專家來了解整個檢驗還有整個這一個"},{"start":405.194,"end":405.774,"text":"所有實驗的過程"},{"start":428.343,"end":448.303,"text":"我們的政府非常注重要去保障整個食安的一個安全我相信除了產業自律政府的管理查驗跟民間共同參與以外這個沒有讓它水落石出民眾還是不安心可是我要問的就是說"},{"start":449.943,"end":472.874,"text":"我那業者很自律欸各地方你看那個養豬協會都跳出來說我們很自律的欸我覺得他這豬也很衰你知道嗎他這豬紅炸了之後現在大家誤會說是不是他自己吃了什麼那個西部特羅豬那個是豬是不會講話而已啊不然我覺得他也很冤枉啊一定不是豬給他吃你知道嗎我覺得人為啦但這個人為是故意"},{"start":479.212,"end":487.359,"text":"如果故意給它污染的話 濃度不會只有0.002ppm0.002ppm是很低很低的濃度這按照所有的專家做過分析化學的專家來做的話這種是不小心污染"},{"start":507.056,"end":507.536,"text":"並備質詢：莊瑞雄：莊瑞雄"},{"start":525.003,"end":525.183,"text":"為什麽在"},{"start":553.79,"end":575.883,"text":"這一個實驗室裡面會檢驗到希伏特羅那當然有一種情形就是實驗操作的過程當中有不小心的污染那其他的實驗室裡面我們都沒有看得到但是它裡也有希伏特羅而且很少量希伏特羅並沒有污染而且那個測出量那麼低這個一般的專家來看的話就是有"},{"start":576.443,"end":576.523,"text":"院長讓我這樣講"},{"start":599.801,"end":600.342,"text":"中央跟地方大家一起來嘛"},{"start":617.515,"end":642.632,"text":"是不是可以去協助他在整個實驗室以後的一個檢驗 怎麼樣建立更完整的SOP 還有整個還原的一個機制好讓我們兩座又發生一件 大家又在那裡活啊 好不好好 這部分是在從我們後續的這個計畫裡面 就是加強實驗的這個技術能量以外更重要的就是我們養豬的單位呢 也要來做檢查"},{"start":643.072,"end":663.145,"text":"而且食藥署也會加強這個豬肉的瘦肉精的檢查從每年2000件增加到4000件這個是就像委員所要求的一樣我們會努力來做好讓民眾可以放心好 謝謝院長的答覆兩位部長請回我請我們教育部潘部長還有我們財政部莊部長金管會主委"},{"start":670.131,"end":676.359,"text":"院長後天就是我們2025年亞洲盃籃球賽資格賽我們的國家隊要在主場和平籃球場迎戰紐西蘭照理來講這幾天已經是賽事比賽前訓練充足士氣高昂的時候"},{"start":687.512,"end":695.758,"text":"我看到曾經為國家立下多支哈馬功勞的國手劉禎發了一個臉書感嘆國家隊的老問題規劃保險問題都沒有處理好這個要求人怎麼樣專心權益的為國爭光"},{"start":704.48,"end":729.441,"text":"有一個很大的一個感觸我們都知道運動員的職業生涯沒有改變可能一個傷勢以後就讓他的職業的生涯就報銷掉了所以運動員代表國家其實是一場賭注賭自己可以平安健康但體育的一個競技裡面在運動裡面常常受傷都很嚴重過去就不只一次國手參加國際賽來受傷但是要舉兩個例子"},{"start":732.443,"end":752.093,"text":"有一位棒球好手就是羅嘉仁2015年他代表我國參加世界賽的時候受傷那賽季就全部報銷掉了還好那個時候有跟保險公司協議李培的金額會按照他的月薪去給付所以他現在可以去延續他的職業生涯到現在但同樣是國手我們也另外一位籃球好手叫張宗憲"},{"start":753.194,"end":779.415,"text":"他曾經也是美國大學籃球拿過最優秀的一個球員前兩年也在我們臺灣的職業聯賽裡面拿過MVP那在2017年他效力我們中華隊的時候在友誼賽的時候手指斷掉了提前回來回來第二天沒有人問問從找醫生治療整個過程都自己來讓他挫折徹底的挫折他說我以後不要再跟你去中華隊了"},{"start":781.388,"end":804.396,"text":"最近的保險事件爆發以後也讓他在社群裡面去感嘆他說從他20歲開始打中華隊15年過去了從單身大學生到當父親了還在炒一樣的東西啊所以本席想請教院長跟部長就是說有沒有掌握這次事件因為兩天後就要開打了那求援保險最新的進度這又是怎樣來補充"},{"start":807.106,"end":820.183,"text":"謝謝委員關切這個相關選手的保險的問題那也跟委員報告確實在因為我們兩個主要的一個是棒球一個籃球都有我們透過職業聯盟的選手來參賽那職業聯盟的選手確實在"},{"start":822.807,"end":824.528,"text":"他們的薪資我就會知道 你們可能不知道"},{"start":849.788,"end":850.008,"text":"加入我們國家隊"},{"start":877.398,"end":879.179,"text":"剛委員補充報告也因為這次劉珍隊長確實有感而發那體育署政署長就非常積極的跟"},{"start":897.113,"end":897.673,"text":"我們來設計商品"},{"start":919.289,"end":925.142,"text":"不然你說商業公司不行,我們國營事業的,我們那些造風啊,還是華南"},{"start":974.224,"end":978.167,"text":"謝謝莊委員：莊瑞雄的質詢接下來謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}