{"error":false,"id":["149117"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149117,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149117","日期":"2024-02-20","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"院會-11-1-1","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期第1次會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":1,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"院會","標題":"立法院第11屆第1會期第1次會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-02-20T16:15:29+08:00","結束時間":"2024-02-20T16:31:32+08:00","影片長度":"00:16:03","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1642863e6d7b33d4d88cafdead63773cd783c41c18e7293cf8ba9b0039caa7a66a44de5b0a6d02755ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許智傑","委員發言時間":"16:15:29 - 16:31:32","會議時間":"2024-02-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第1次會議（事由：行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告並備質詢）","gazette":{"lineno":667,"blocks":[["許委員智傑：（16時15分）主席，我們先請陸委會跟交通部。"],["主席：請陸委會、交通部的主委和部長備詢。"],["邱主任委員太三：委員好。"],["許委員智傑：部長、主委，現在民間對於開放到中國旅遊的旅行團事實上意見滿多的，之前政府也說過年後要開放，現在當然又有觀光署這樣一個因素說暫停開放，那我在想到底什麼時候有機會可以開放？"],["邱主任委員太三：我先跟委員做一個大概權責上的區分，基本上大陸人士要到臺灣來觀光旅遊的話，原則上是由陸委會來做這樣一個主責，這是在我們的兩岸人民關係條例第十六條有做這樣的規定。至於我們國人要到大陸去旅遊，它是涵蓋在觀光署整體觀光發展這樣一個策略裡面，所以這個部分是由交通部觀光署在負責。"],["王部長國材：是，我跟委員報告，這次的確我們本來是非常希望健康、有序、友善的交往，當時也是請他們先組團，但是的確發生這次所提的：第一個，他們不過來；第二個，對M503，還有一些斷交事件等等。","這次是這樣，從3月1號到5月底，這是我們經過調查，這3個月他們組團是最多的，這個部分是讓他們繼續做。6月1號叫做暫停組團，並不是永遠就停止，只要他們有善意的回應，包括比如說他們團客過來的宣告，或是對於像M503跟我們的民航單位做一些討論等等的，有善意的討論以後或是表現以後，我們會按照他的表現重新來考慮，比如說6月1號以後的狀況是怎麼樣。"],["邱主任委員太三：另外再跟委員補充，我想基於國家整體利益這樣一個考量，世界各國都一樣，基本上觀光的交流都是雙向的，但是對岸在2019年8月1號的時候就無預警地先禁止他們的人民到臺灣來自由行，但是我們還是繼續讓我們的國人可以到大陸去自由行。第二個，2020年的時候因為疫情的關係，他們在1月24號也禁止他們的團客到臺灣來，當然我們相對的也因為疫情的關係，我們也禁止到對岸去。所以從2019年之前，基本上是基於雙向，大家互利互惠，所以不會衝擊到國家的利益。"],["許委員智傑：主委，因為時間有限，我就提出比較具體的建議，就是全世界跟我們臺灣是不是100%對等的關係，當然有時候還是看國與國之間的互動。"],["邱主任委員太三：對。"],["許委員智傑：我舉個例子，像泰國、汶萊跟菲律賓旅客現在來臺是免簽，他們對我們還是要去辦理簽證，而且還要付簽證的費用，所以國跟國之間有一些互動不見得100%都會一模一樣。"],["邱主任委員太三：但是絕對不會是零。"],["許委員智傑：對。"],["邱主任委員太三：他至少不會禁止他們來臺灣觀光。"],["許委員智傑：對，這個思考一下啦！我的意思就是說，有時候對等要拿捏到什麼程度，這個是一個思考的空間。"],["邱主任委員太三：對，絕對不要是零嘛！"],["許委員智傑：第二個就是中國跟臺灣的關係的確也相當的敏感，這個我們都很清楚，我們對於中華民國臺灣是主權獨立的國家，這個我們也不可能有任何的鬆動，當然中國對於我們這樣子的立場也保持著不是友善的態度，最近包括M503、包括上我們的快艇來做檢查，事實上是很傲慢的，這個我們都清楚。但是從國人的角度，有時候其實我們是討厭中國共產黨，不見得是討厭中國同胞，所以這個部分我是建議可以適當地拿捏一下。也就是說，如果是開放，比如說我們如果先釋出小額的或者是逐步地開放，請交通部跟陸委會可以思考斟酌，好不好？因為這個沒有100%的東西可以說完全對等的。"],["王部長國材：我跟委員報告，現在的自由行，我們去大陸、自己去觀光都沒有限制，他們的自由行現在都限制了，光自由行，所以剛才主委所談的，現在是0，是用0的方式，自由行和團客都是0的方式。我們自由行事實上已經釋出很大善意了，團客當時在去年8月24號也釋出一個善意，但得不到一個善意地回應，所以剛才談到的這個善意事實上已經釋出了。"],["許委員智傑：對啦！我知道，部長，沒關係，因為我時間有限，沒有辦法一直講這個議題。我先把它講完，就是我剛剛提到的這個部分，請我們交通部跟陸委會再做一下思考。"],["邱主任委員太三：好，你的建議我們會來……"],["許委員智傑：因為百姓的思考跟政府的思考當然還是有一些差距，國跟國的思考也是有一些差距，如何去拿捏到一個平衡點？我希望交通部跟陸委會可以再思考、慎重地思考一下，好不好？"],["邱主任委員太三：好，謝謝委員。"],["許委員智傑：好，主委先休息一下，我再問一下部長。請教一下部長，事實上高鐵南延這個議題我知道很大也很困擾，當時我一直主張從左營延伸到高雄站、延伸到鳳山站、再延伸到屏東，當然目前這個方案就是直接從左營拉到六塊厝斜切過去，這個方案雖然已經核定了，有兩個因素我是覺得可以再做思考，一個是說，我有從側面消息瞭解，要通過那邊直接斜切到六塊厝是不是遇到什麼困難？"],["王部長國材：沒有，主要是說，我們為了要減少拆遷，現在跟高屏二快是平行共構。"],["許委員智傑：嗯。"],["王部長國材：所以我們也找到一個，但是的確在高雄市的部分是有拆到一些住戶的房子……"],["許委員智傑：如果可以，我的意思就是如果可以重新評估，當然原來已經核定的案子要更改是很困難，但是我知道目前也遇到一些困難，這個可以再做一下思考。另外一個就是，當時我們一開始就主張左營延伸高雄、延伸鳳山再到屏東這個方案，之前我也曾經在111年有開過一個座談會，我們也去考察過；那時候交通部跟臺鐵給我們的意見是說，因為共構、共軌空間當時的規劃不足，當時可能就是舊的政府，以前我知道可能是毛治國或葉匡時時代，他們在當交通部長、次長那個時候，可能覺得我們的經濟效益不足，所以決定當時只做鐵路地下化，否則當時如果鐵路地下化包括高鐵一起思考的話，可能會更好，所以曾經有這一個可惜啦！但是我想一想就是，往後的百年高雄計畫，如果高鐵可以到高雄站跟鳳山站，以後南高雄依然可以蓬勃發展；如果是現在的斜切過去，再經過50年、100年，恐怕南高雄有可能像現在的鹽埕埔這樣，我就覺得很可惜。所以我還是希望有沒有機會再扳回來，能夠再重新地思考，讓高鐵從左營到高雄站、到鳳山站、再到屏東，這種可能性有沒有機會？"],["王部長國材：我跟委員報告，如果有這個機會的話，應該在民國98年高雄鐵路地下化施工前就要決定，當時的決定當然有它的背景，比如說他覺得到左營以後……"],["許委員智傑：我知道，當時就是政府眼光不足，認為不符合經濟效益，還是經費不夠就不做了，當然那個時候不是我們執政，我也很不滿，但是時間已經過去了，不滿只能生氣而已，也沒用，現在有沒有機會再補救回來？"],["王部長國材：委員也知道，鐵路地下化現在都做完了，地下是鐵道，上面是綠廊道，一直到鳳山。這個意思是說，如果98年沒有把高鐵延伸放進去，現在是你們做好的部分開始要找一個路廊，這個路廊經過我們的評估，最大的拆遷點在高雄車站跟鳳山車站。您可以看到鳳山車站7月會完工，很漂亮，綠廊道也有腳踏車道，接下我要放一個新的進去，困難在這個地方。也不是不可以思考，這部分過去是覺得，已經在97年、98年做了一個決定以後，兩個就是分道揚鑣了。"],["許委員智傑：我知道，我的意思是長痛跟短痛的問題，我們為城市、為國家的思考可以更長遠總是會更好，當然目前你要叫我再動，其實我也很捨不得，因為都已經做好了，都這麼漂亮，大家都很稱讚。基本上，現在使用當然是……其實整個高雄人、鳳山人對於現在的成就、成果都還算很滿意，所以這個是好事，但是我想得更遠。我是透過側面消息瞭解，不知道正不正確，從左營斜切到六塊厝那邊的確遇到一些困難。"],["王部長國材：對，跟委員報告，的確有碰到困難，第一個是用地，因為進到高雄，路過……"],["許委員智傑：那些細節我們不用討論得那麼清楚，我知道交通部也有遇到一些困難。如果重新再思考一次的話，當然這個茲事體大，不是我們今天說了算，也希望交通部甚至高雄市政府、行政院都必須重新思考一下。"],["王部長國材：第一個，剛才談到工程面，比如說鳳山車站，現在如果在鳳山設一個站，要在現有的大樓找一個地方跟它連通，然後你要走到旁邊去，旁邊……"],["許委員智傑：沒關係，工程細節我們另外再規劃。"],["王部長國材：第二個，第二次施工的時候，工程大概十年的黑暗期又來了，所以這個問題……"],["許委員智傑：這個再做一下……"],["王部長國材：這個部分高雄市政府或是各位委員可以討論，如果大家覺得好，還是要這樣走，大家也可以克服拆遷的民怨，我們可以再想一下。"],["許委員智傑：好，這個請交通部再做一下評估。"],["王部長國材：是。"],["許委員智傑：我相信院長也滿同意的，今天要想的是百年，不是十年，未來的百年，我覺得南高雄有這個必要，所以請交通部、行政院再做一下思考。"],["王部長國材：好。"],["許委員智傑：好，謝謝。我們請客委會。"],["主席：請客委會。"],["楊主任委員長鎮：許委員好。"],["許委員智傑：主委好。祝福大家身體健康，滿面春風，走路有風，我是高雄小金剛。"],["楊主任委員長鎮：講得很好。"],["許委員智傑：我是河洛人，支持客家人。我們其實為客家爭取了不少的資源，當然民進黨政府時代，包括客家廣播電臺、客家電視臺等等，我們都很努力，跟以前的國民黨時代相較，的確我們都做了很多事情。再來就是我們的客家文創中心現在要進駐黃埔新村，也謝謝主委，當時我辦會勘，主委也協助，黃埔新村後續的客家文化據點、中心會陸續再把它做得更好。但是還有幾個問題需要再努力，我們111年已經提過客家語言發展法，這個也要跟坐在上面的院長建議一下，因為當時院長曾經說母語只能在家學，我是認為在學校學也非常重要，尤其是國家語言發展法列入我們客家文化重點發展區等等客家相關的議題，所以這個部分我會主張客委會應該也要協助在學校的教學等等，讓地方的語言可以在學校多加強，這個部分應該沒問題吧？"],["楊主任委員長鎮：跟委員報告，我們跟教育部有合作，做客家第一期重點發展的學校，鼓勵大家用客家話作為教學的語言，這也是國家語言發展法當中所規定的，每年參與的學校、班數都有增加。"],["許委員智傑：感謝主委，院長不能讓我們質詢，但是跟院長建議，這個聲音也讓院長聽到。","再來就是我們的客家基本法，其實客家文化重點發展區重點在原鄉客家，那針對都會客家，是不是我們會再提客家基本法修正案，讓都市裡面客家人口多的也能夠列入客家文化重點發展區？這點應該沒問題吧？"],["楊主任委員長鎮：目前客家重點發展區是以鄉、鎮、市、區……"],["許委員智傑：主委，抱歉！我剩下15秒，我再提一下，還有一個世界客家博覽會，我們希望能夠在南部、在高雄執行，這樣子OK嗎？"],["楊主任委員長鎮：我們正在評估當中，決定要辦的時候，一定會優先考慮高屏地區。"],["許委員智傑：好。"],["主席：謝謝許委員智傑的質詢。","接下來我們請林委員思銘質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":236,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-1","speakers":["韓國瑜","黃國昌","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","莊瑞雄","洪孟楷","許智傑","林思銘"],"page_start":22,"meetingDate":["2024-02-20"],"gazette_id":"1130401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130401_00003","1130401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第 11 屆第 1 會期第 1 次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告並備質詢─ 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健康 有序 有善的交往的確當時也是請他們先組團"},{"start":104.462,"end":106.444,"text":"3月1日至5月底是經過調查三個月主團最多6月1日暫停主團"},{"start":125.425,"end":149.519,"text":"並不是永遠永遠就停止那只要他們有善意的回應包括比如說他團客過來的宣告或是對於這些像恩姆林山跟我們的民航單位做一些討論等等的有善意的這個討論以後或是表現以後我們會按照他的這表現來重新來考慮比如說6月1號以後的狀況是怎麼樣"},{"start":151.763,"end":172.282,"text":"另外我再跟委員補充我想基於國家整體利益這樣的一個考量世界各國都一樣基本上觀光的交流都是雙向的但是對岸在2019年8月1號的時候就無預警的就先禁止他們的人民到台灣來自由行"},{"start":172.762,"end":173.583,"text":"施政方針及施政報告"},{"start":190.162,"end":192.523,"text":"我舉個例子向泰國問來跟菲律賓旅客我們現在來台是免簽嗎"},{"start":221.035,"end":249.187,"text":"那他們對我們還是要須要辦理簽證而且還要付簽證的費用所以國跟國之間有一些互動不見得100%都一模一樣但是絕對不會是0阿他至少不會禁止他們到台灣來關卡這個想思考一下我的意思就是說有時候對等要拿捏到什麼程度這個第一個是一個思考的空間"},{"start":250.427,"end":262.986,"text":"那第二個就是說中國跟台灣的關係的確也相當的敏感這個我們都很清楚那我們對於中華民國台灣是主權獨立的國家這個我們也不可能"},{"start":263.604,"end":287.042,"text":"有任何的鬆動那當然中國對於我們這樣子的立場也保持著不是友善的態度那最近包括M503包括我們的快艇來做這個檢查事實上是很拗的這個我們都清楚那但是就是說從國人的角度有時候"},{"start":288.223,"end":294.595,"text":"其實我們是討厭中國共產黨也不見得是討厭中國同胞所以這個部分我想"},{"start":296.141,"end":323.28,"text":"我是建議是可以適當的拿捏一下啦也就是說如果是開放比如說我們如果先釋出小額的或者是逐步的開放請交通部跟陸委會可以思考斟酌啦好不好因為這個東西沒有100%的東西可以說完全對的我跟委員報告現在的自由行我們去大陸自己一光光的都沒有限制他們自由行現在都限制了光自由行"},{"start":323.92,"end":346.119,"text":"所以剛才主委所談現在是領是用領的方式自由行跟團課都是領的方式那我們自由行事實上已經釋出很大善意了那團課當時在去年8月24號也釋出一個善意但得不到一個善意的回應所以剛才談到這個善意事實上已經釋出了我知道部長的意思因為我時間有限沒有辦法一直講這個議題那我們請那個"},{"start":349.606,"end":351.427,"text":"主委請休息一下再問一下部長"},{"start":378.459,"end":399.37,"text":"請教一下部長,事實上高鐵南延這個議題我知道也很大也很困擾當時我一直主張就是從左營延伸到高雄站延伸到鳳山站再延伸到屏東那當然做目前這一個"},{"start":400.555,"end":422.094,"text":"方案就是直接從左營拉到六塊處斜切過去這個方案雖然已經核定了那有兩個因素我是覺得可以再做思考一個是說我有從側面消息了解要通過那邊直接斜切到六塊處是不是遇到什麼困難"},{"start":423.764,"end":435.16,"text":"主要是說我們為了要減少拆遷現在跟高屏二塊是平行共購所以我們找到一個但是的確在高雄市的部分是有拆到一些黃紙"},{"start":439.232,"end":464.093,"text":"如果可以我的意思就是說如果可以重新評估啦當然原來已經合訂的案子要更改是很困難但是我知道目前也遇到一些困難那這個可以再做一下思考那另外一個就是當時我們一開始就主張左營延伸高雄延伸鳳山再到屏東這個方案那之前我也曾經"},{"start":464.933,"end":493.207,"text":"在111年也開過一個座談會我們也去考察過那時候交通部跟台鐵給我們的意見是說因為供給空間當時的規劃不足嘛當時可能就是舊的政府以前我知道可能是毛澤國或葉狂死時代在當交通部長次長那個時候可能覺得我們的"},{"start":494.666,"end":517.487,"text":"經濟效益不足所以決定當時只做鐵路地下化或者當時如果鐵路計畫包括高鐵一起思考的話可能會更好所以也曾經有這個可惜但是我想一想就是說往後的百年高雄的計畫如果高鐵可以到高雄站跟鳳山站以後南高雄依然可以蓬勃發展"},{"start":518.7,"end":544.802,"text":"那如果是就現在的斜切過去在經過50年100年恐怕咱高雄有可能像現在的鹽田坡我會覺得很可笑所以我還是希望說有沒有機會再版回來能夠再重新的思考讓高鐵從左營到高雄站到鳳山站再到屏東這種可能性有沒有機會我跟委員報告目前如果這個機會的話應該在民國98年"},{"start":547.924,"end":569.696,"text":"高雄鐵路地下化施工前就決定了那當時的決定當然當時有他的背景比如說他接到轉移以後 不知道當時就是政府眼光不足就認為說不符合經濟效率還是經費不夠就不做了嘛當然那個時候不是我們執政但是我也很不滿啦但是時間已經過去了嘛不滿只能生氣而已也沒用啊"},{"start":570.496,"end":596.607,"text":"現在有沒有機會再補救回來現在問題再加 委員你也知道 鐵路地下化現在都做完了上面的這個地下是鐵道 上面是利朗道一直到鳳山這個意思是說當時如果在98年沒有把高鐵延伸放進去現在是你們做好的部分開始要找一個路廊那這個路廊經過我們的評估最大的拆遷點在高雄車站跟鳳山 鳳山車站"},{"start":598.328,"end":613.511,"text":"那您可以看到鳳山車站7月會完工哇 這麼漂亮然後那個麗郎道也有腳踏車道那我接下來我要放一個新的進去這個困難度在這個地方也不是不可以思考啦我想說這部分在過去是覺得說"},{"start":616.495,"end":633.773,"text":"所以我的意思是說長痛跟短痛的問題就是說總是我們為城市為國家的思考會更長遠會更好那當然目前你要叫我再動其實我很捨不得啦"},{"start":635.038,"end":662.95,"text":"因為已經都做好了都這麼漂亮大家都很稱讚那基本上現在使用當然是我們其實整個高雄人、鳳山人對於現在的成就、成果都還算很滿意所以這個是好事但是我是想得更遠就是說我是側面消息了解不知道正不正確啦就是從左營斜切到六塊錯那邊的確是遇到一些困難啦"},{"start":664.285,"end":689.405,"text":"對 跟委包的確有碰到他的困難 第一個是這個用地啦 因為你進到高雄 路過 而且細節我們就不用論那麼清楚啦 就是我知道交通部也有遇到一些困難嘛那如果重新再思考一次的話 當然這個知識體大 不是我們今天說的算那也希望說交通部 甚至高雄市政府 我們行政院都必須做一下重新的思考"},{"start":689.785,"end":718.917,"text":"現在第一個啦第一個剛才談到工程面比如說鳳山車站哇那現在你做了這個如果在鳳山設一個站那你就現有大樓要找一個地方跟他連通哇那個然後旁邊因為你要走到旁邊去這個旁邊工程細節這個我們另外再規劃第二次施工的時候又有工程的大概10年的黑暗期又來了所以這個問題就是我想這部分這個高雄市政府或是各委員可以做一個討論如果大家覺得說啊好我還是要走這樣"},{"start":719.857,"end":720.457,"text":"請行政院做思考請客委會"},{"start":754.912,"end":758.675,"text":"主委好 祝福大家身體健康﹐滿面春風﹐行路有風﹐我這就有誰敢講我這好多人支持學家人﹐我是好多人"},{"start":785.181,"end":813.166,"text":"我們為客家其實爭取了不少的資源當然民進黨政府時代包括客家廣播電台、客家電視台等等的我們都很努力也跟以前的國民黨時代的確我們都做了很多事情再來就是說我們的黃埔新村現在要進駐我們客家文創中心也謝謝主委當時我辦會刊主委也協助所以黃埔新村後續我們的客家文化"},{"start":814.367,"end":835.184,"text":"據點中心會陸續再把它做得更好但是還有幾個問題需要再努力的就是說我們111年已經提過《客家語言發展法》這個也要跟坐在上面的院長建議一下因為當時院長曾經說母語只能在家學"},{"start":836.192,"end":859.333,"text":"那我是認為在學校學也非常的重要尤其是國家語言發展法列入我們客家文化重點發展區等等的相關的客家的議題所以這個部分我會主張就是客會會應該也要協助我們的在學校的教書教學等等的一些地方的語言可以在學校多加強這部分應該是沒問題吧"},{"start":860.294,"end":868.617,"text":"委員報告：合作：提起沖涼發展機的報告鼓勵大家用合格法作為高學的議員：在議員發展法當中所規定的當年參議的報告版書都有增加感謝主委我是"},{"start":885.956,"end":911.233,"text":"跟院長 院長不能讓我們質詢 但是跟院長建議這個聲音也讓院長聽到那再來就是我們的客家基本法現在的都會客家 其實客森文化重點發展區重點在原鄉客家那在都會客家是不是我們會再提修客家基本法讓都市裡面客家人口多的也能夠列入客森文化重點發展區這一點應該沒問題吧"},{"start":913.612,"end":939.742,"text":"目前他將創業發展期以行政司期60天之所謂抱歉我剩下15秒我再提一下還有一個世界客家博覽會我們希望能夠在南部在高雄能夠執行這樣子OK嗎你大家評估當中各廳要判的時間一廳有限靠你國平地區"},{"start":950.723,"end":955.829,"text":"謝謝秀園智傑的質詢接下來我們請林委員 施敏 質詢"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}