{"error":false,"id":["149118"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149118,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149118","日期":"2024-02-20","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"院會-11-1-1","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期第1次會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":1,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"院會","標題":"立法院第11屆第1會期第1次會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-02-20T16:31:37+08:00","結束時間":"2024-02-20T17:02:16+08:00","影片長度":"00:30:39","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1642863e6d7b33d4b2d0d55f1dabff97d783c41c18e7293cf8ba9b0039caa7a62be3db84a1c3d9675ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林思銘","委員發言時間":"16:31:37 - 17:02:16","會議時間":"2024-02-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第1次會議（事由：行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告並備質詢）","gazette":{"lineno":724,"blocks":[["林委員思銘：（16時31分）謝謝院長，請陳院長。"],["主席：請陳院長備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：林委員，恭喜你連任立委。"],["林委員思銘：謝謝院長。院長，我首先要跟您就教電費調漲的問題，元宵節都還沒有到，但民眾口袋中的紅包卻馬上面臨又要掏出來的情況，因為台電已經準備針對半導體與民生用電再次的全面調漲電價，而電價的上漲必定又會引起一波民生物價的調漲，人民只能繼續苦哈哈的過日子。過去蔡英文總統曾經說過，在他任內電價絕對不會大幅的上漲，但是我要告訴院長，過去蔡政府歷年電價調整的歷程，到2023年為止已經調漲3次，分別為2018年的4月漲3%、2022年7月漲8.4%、去年（2023年）4月漲11%，漲幅共高達23%。此外，對於台電的虧損，我們看到政府永遠只有兩招，一招就是調漲電價，另外一招就是政府的補助。我們看看我們政府在2022年就已經補助了1,500億，在疫後條例也編列了500億，然後今年的年度預算可能會再資助1,000億，所以難道政府只會用漲價與補助這兩招嗎？我想過去台電累計虧損到今年為止又將高達3,800億。所以在這邊要請問經濟部，面對台電3,800億的虧損，除了漲價與補助，還有什麼樣的方法能夠解決？也請問院長，電價上漲會不會造成物價的上漲，進而造成通貨的膨脹？"],["陳院長建仁：我想電價調漲當然會帶動物價的上漲，這就是為什麼我們在剛才你講的這3次電價調整的過程當中都一直相當的謹慎，沒有充分的來反映燃料的成本，特別是在俄烏戰爭期間，全世界的電費都是上漲，有些還是成倍的成長，可是我們3次加起來，委員剛才講的，實際上我們的調幅比起其他國家來得偏低。"],["林委員思銘：所以，院長我們……"],["陳院長建仁：第二個很重要的就是，當我們電價在調整的時候，我們會看哪一個產業受到的影響比較大，調整幅度就要下降，哪一個產業受到的幅度比較小，我們會比較高的調漲，特別是民生用電，也看用電量來調整。所以我們的電費調整，實際上是很細緻的在調整，不是說across the board，不是說一體全部漲多少，這也就是我們在這3次電價調整的過程當中相當細緻在調整，這也就是我剛才講的……"],["林委員思銘：院長，過去我們在調漲電價方面大家都一直很謹慎，甚至有時候凍漲，當然就誠如院長剛才講的，因為電價調漲就會造成我們物價的上漲、生產成本增加，物價上漲我們人民的生活指數就會痛苦，因為薪水一直沒有增加，結果民生必需品的物價一直漲……"],["陳院長建仁：但是我們也不能夠叫台電一直賠錢的在發電。"],["林委員思銘：所以我要請問院長，電價如果一直漲上去，會不會造成物價的失控？"],["陳院長建仁：我們就是因為不讓物價失控，所以我們才會把電費的調整調得很細緻，如同剛才我講的，而且沒有調到完全的幅度，但是我們也不能夠讓台電發一度電就賠錢。"],["林委員思銘：院長，你講到一個重點，不能讓台電持續的虧損……"],["陳院長建仁：對，這個部分我是不是請部長……"],["林委員思銘：沒有，我再繼續問下去，所以我們要如何解決台電虧損的問題？因為我們現在看到台電連年虧損，每年都在虧損，我們就只有兩招，一個是補助，一個是漲電價，就誠如院長您講的，就是要漲電價，讓它不要虧損，但是它又一直虧損，到底要怎麼樣讓它不會虧損？請部長來解釋。"],["王部長美花：因為臺灣的原料一定都是要進口，這個是國際價格的機制，我們沒有辦法解決，但是用政府的補貼確實可以讓電價不要漲這麼多。臺灣物價的漲幅在全世界裡面相對是比較平穩的，所以我們一直講台電扮演消波塊的原因是這樣。這一次因為我們算起來台電整年的虧損，到年底的話會讓台電的財務有相關的危機，所以我們當然最優先還是希望政府能夠補貼。"],["林委員思銘：部長，如果這一次又用我們超徵的這些稅收再去補助台電的話，您保證明年台電不會再繼續虧損嗎？"],["王部長美花：我們就是希望至少在今年裡面讓台電可以平穩，在相關政府的補貼或者電價機制之後，就是要達到台電平衡。"],["林委員思銘：我的意思是說我們透過這樣的補助跟漲價，您的目的就是希望台電不要虧損。"],["王部長美花：對，不要再繼續虧損。"],["林委員思銘：但是你能保證我們這些措施做下去，明年台電不會虧損嗎？"],["王部長美花：因為今年我們一定要確保今年台電的平衡，至於明年的部分……"],["林委員思銘：所以我們只是治標不治本嘛！這樣聽起來，你是保證今年能夠讓它平穩，那明年呢？"],["王部長美花：是，明年因為相關燃料價格的部分，國際的波動都還要再看。"],["林委員思銘：其實我們也很想告訴行政院或者經濟部，台電的虧損問題要如何解決，這面臨到我們的能源政策是否要重新去審視檢討的問題。我想臺灣的整體能源政策當然不僅牽涉到剛才您提到的全世界原料上漲的問題，台電本身的經營管理，以及我們政府規劃的澈底解決方案是什麼，這部分我們也要去做考量，讓台電能夠收支平衡。總結我問一個問題，因為現在核能已經被世界普遍認為是乾淨能源的一個能源，政府是不是願意採用重啟核能，以補足我們未來電力不足的這個危機？有沒有這個選項？"],["陳院長建仁：我們沒有電力不足。"],["林委員思銘：沒有不足，為什麼台電一直虧損？"],["陳院長建仁：這是因為我們燃料的價錢貴，我們沒有充分反映成本……"],["林委員思銘：所以不是能源政策有問題嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：因為我們現在是展綠，我們發展綠色能源，增氣、減煤……"],["林委員思銘：對嘛！你發展綠能，結果造成我們要去購買這些瓦斯、油氣……"],["陳院長建仁：核能實際上在臺灣的電量占比是相當低的，而且如果現在核電……"],["林委員思銘：院長，你回答我的問題啦！我們是不是願意重啟核能？因為全世界都認為它是乾淨能源。"],["陳院長建仁：現在我就回答這個問題，如果一個核電廠要延役，依法它一定要做安全的調查，一旦要申請延役的時候，最起碼也要2年到4年以後才能夠再繼續發電，所以這是一個緩不濟急的做法，即使你說核能要延役，但就目前台電的狀況來看，短期內是不能解決問題的。"],["林委員思銘：院長，既然您這樣說，我再請教您，對於台電持續虧損或者電價一直上漲，到底我們政府的規劃與澈底的解決方案是什麼？你可以一針見血的告訴我嗎？"],["王部長美花：跟委員報告，事實上就電價的漲幅，譬如說有用核電的韓國和法國，事實上他們的漲幅都比臺灣還多，韓國漲了百分之八十幾，法國漲了百分之六十幾，所以他們的電價都比臺灣貴非常多。現在臺灣確實是為了壓抑通膨，所以沒有漲足，我們現在的發電成本沒有含稅是3.93塊，可是我們現在賣的電在民生的部分大概是2.6塊。"],["林委員思銘：部長，我想您試圖解釋的就是，因為我們的電價太低了，所以你勢必要漲。"],["王部長美花：我們當然優先還是希望政府能夠給我們補貼。"],["林委員思銘：你剛才也提到韓國跟法國他們也有讓他們核能相關的核電廠有延役的措施……"],["陳院長建仁：但是還是在漲，漲幅比較高喔！"],["林委員思銘：所以我才會請行政院要進一步思考，人家都會讓核能延役下去了，我國是不是也要去思考讓我們的電價可以有更多發電的來源，如果我們的電量夠，可能我們的電價也可以不用馬上飆漲。"],["王部長美花：我們核電目前都是用到40年的期間，並沒有提早……"],["林委員思銘：好啦！我只想知道行政院的態度，我想你們持續的要去做一個完整的規劃，提出澈底的解決方案……"],["陳院長建仁：而且現在如果核電廠要延役，新北市很多貯存槽部分的配合，還有民意的同意等等，這個都很重要。"],["林委員思銘：好，院長，這一題我就談到這裡。我現在再請問院長兩岸關係，剛才很多委員也一直持續關心這一次組團到大陸觀光旅遊6月禁止的禁令，我想從法律面來請教一下。交通部原本規劃3月1日起要恢復旅行社招攬旅遊團到大陸，但是你們卻又無預警的停止了，無預警！完全沒有講，突然一紙禁令就來了，只限3到5月可出團，6月之後全面禁止旅遊團赴大陸。我不曉得這個考量是什麼？你為什麼不講8月、為什麼不講10月、為什麼不講12月？你只說6月開始就禁止，到底考量的點在哪裡？如果6月後赴陸是損害國家的利益，3月到5月間出團就沒有損害國家的利益嗎？我剛剛也聽到邱太三主委……"],["陳院長建仁：我想……"],["林委員思銘：我繼續講完，院長你再統一回答。剛剛邱太三主委也回答許委員講的，就是我們自由行部分有持續的開放。"],["邱主任委員太三：對。"],["林委員思銘：所以我的疑慮就是，你這個政策根本邏輯不通，既然說自由行還可以去，難道自由行就符合國家的利益嗎？所以這個講法很奇怪。"],["邱主任委員太三：一點都不奇怪。"],["林委員思銘：怎麼會不奇怪？你解釋一下。"],["邱主任委員太三：我跟委員報告，剛剛其實我有提到，事實上自由行是個人的行動自由，過去在兩岸關係條例裡面，人民要到大陸去是必須要得到許可的，但是因為兩岸的情勢不斷的變化，兩岸條例也做了一些修改，加上人民要求說，你怎麼可以限制我去，所以我們現在大概只有在第九條那些特定的政務人員或者是核心關鍵技術人員才有管制他個人的部分。所以現在來講，人民要到大陸去經商、讀書、探親等等，這是他的權益……"],["林委員思銘：所以人民是隨時可以自由進出去讀書、就學等等，都可以嘛！"],["邱主任委員太三：但是旅行業是涉及到消費者、國家的觀光政策，還有國家的利益，基本上這一定要互惠，這樣才是公平的，不然的話，我們都只有每年800億給對岸在賺，他一毛錢都不給我們賺，哪有這種算法的？"],["林委員思銘：主委，我告訴你，現在你雖然禁止組團，但你知道民間是怎麼做的嗎？他們照常組團到中國大陸去，他們照常買個人機票，然後到大陸就會合，這對他們去旅遊有保障嗎？如果由旅遊業者組團到中國大陸，我想國人到中國大陸去旅遊、觀光，對他們的安全也好，對他們的便利性也好，都是比較有保障的。你說這個會損害國家利益，我看不出來有損國家利益是在哪裡？"],["邱主任委員太三：每年他們賺我們800億。"],["陳院長建仁：800億。"],["邱主任委員太三：我們應該也要賺他們800億吧！"],["林委員思銘：是，您剛才一直提到……"],["邱主任委員太三：對，所以大陸都……"],["林委員思銘：要互惠嘛！"],["邱主任委員太三：不做互惠。"],["林委員思銘：對，因為我過去問你，你也跟我說要互惠，但是我在想，如果我們都沒有主動搭建善意的橋梁，我們就是……"],["邱主任委員太三：我們有善意表示啦。"],["林委員思銘：現在交通部已經宣布……"],["邱主任委員太三：去年8月23號就宣布了。"],["林委員思銘：3月1號可以開始組團……"],["邱主任委員太三：去年8月23號我們就宣布了，我們要開放的時間點就是它……"],["陳院長建仁：半年的時間……"],["邱主任委員太三：但是他半年都沒有回應。"],["林委員思銘：我現在是針對這一次的政策，交通部已經宣布3月開始可以組團過去，但是現在突然以一紙行政命令、一紙禁令就說不可以，我們不曉得這樣的政策有什麼樣的考量。大家一直說是什麼M503，交通部也一直說這樣有損國家利益，但是……"],["陳院長建仁：當然有損。"],["林委員思銘：主委，我們都念法律的，憲法規定人民有居住及遷徙的自由權利，憲法第十五條也規定，人民的生存權、工作權、財產權應該予以保障。大法官釋字第432號解釋也針對法律明確性原則，一貫的認為須符合可理解、可預見、可審查等三個要件。發展觀光條例所謂的有損害國家利益，根本不符合法律明確性原則，所以我覺得這個政策突然間、無預警推出來，根本就是政府沒有在依法行政。"],["邱主任委員太三：錯了！我要建議委員再往下看，發展觀光條例第六十六條第三項，有關旅行業的經營、管理跟督導是由主管機關訂定管理規則，也因為這樣，我們會訂定旅行業的管理規則，那在旅行業的管理規則，這就是所謂的法規命令，剛剛您提到了，而法規命令最後還是要再送回給立法院來備查跟審查。這一次依據管理規則裡面的第四十九條第十九款，就有所謂涉及到國家利益的管理機制，所以它完全按照發展觀光條例，依法律的規定予以限制人民的權利跟自由，這是符合憲法的規定啊！憲法不是這樣規定嗎？要限制人民的權利跟義務一定要有法律規定。"],["林委員思銘：是啊！要符合法律保留原則。"],["邱主任委員太三：交通部的發展觀光條例就賦予它……"],["林委員思銘：但是……"],["邱主任委員太三：如果影響到國家利益的時候，在管理規則裡面要去處理。"],["林委員思銘：現在問題就出在這裡啊！"],["邱主任委員太三：對，但是管理規則訂定了，每次都有送到貴院來審查或備查……"],["林委員思銘：主委，我剛才為什麼一直跟你強調，你這個邏輯根本不通。你可以讓中華民國的人民到中國大陸旅遊，但是他們組團要去，你跟我說不行，這個邏輯在哪裡？"],["陳院長建仁：一個是產業，一個是……"],["邱主任委員太三：一個是產業，一個是業者，一個是人民。"],["林委員思銘：但是我已經告訴你……"],["邱主任委員太三：業者還要對……"],["林委員思銘：現在大家仍然透過業者，真的是這樣私下去做，為什麼讓他們私下去做，而不讓他們可以公然、公開的依照相關規定去做，卻讓他們偷偷摸摸的去做？您知道嗎？現在大家都偷偷摸摸的去做。本來要把這個禁令拿掉，大家都很高興，所有的旅行業者都心想，終於可以組團去中國大陸，可以保障他們的生計，疫情這4年來讓他們已經悶了多久？我個人覺得我們如果把這個橄欖枝遞到中國大陸，把我們的善意表示出去……"],["陳院長建仁：他們應該要有善意回應。"],["林委員思銘：我相信會有善意的回應啦！"],["邱主任委員太三：請委員跟對岸表達一下！"],["陳院長建仁：我想委員跟對岸呼籲一下，讓他們有善意的回應，這樣雙方互惠……"],["邱主任委員太三：2019年8月1號禁止陸人到臺灣來自由行，到現在這個禁令還沒有解除。"],["林委員思銘：我們會去回應，包含陳玉珍委員都一直積極的在呼籲。"],["邱主任委員太三：所以他也很清楚對岸的態度。"],["林委員思銘：我還是講一句話，剛才我們傅崐萁總召也提到，因為政府的朝令夕改已經造成旅行業者的信賴……"],["陳院長建仁：委員，我……"],["林委員思銘：他本來信賴政府6月以後仍然可以組團，所以他在這段期間組團，8月、9月要出團的很多，但是你現在造成他們沒有辦法去，他已經收了人家的錢，但6月以後就不能去，這時候政府要怎麼補償？"],["陳院長建仁：委員，我可以回答了嗎？委員，是這樣子的，一般組團都是3個月以前組團的，現在我們為什麼會到5月底呢？就是因為我們截止、開始暫停的時間剛好有3個月的時間讓他們去消化掉已經組團的這些人，所以當時我們有3個月這樣的期限。最重要的情況，還是大陸要釋出善意，從剛才講的2019年開始，大陸就不准他們的人民到臺灣來觀光，所以我覺得更重要的是……"],["林委員思銘：院長……"],["陳院長建仁：我們朝野都應該合作起來請對方釋出善意，這才是最重要的啦！"],["林委員思銘：我瞭解你的意思，因為過去你也一直跟我講這件事情，主委過去在內政委員會也一直說你會遞出橄欖枝……"],["陳院長建仁：我們遞出啦！"],["邱主任委員太三：我們不是遞出了嗎？"],["林委員思銘：所以你遞出了，你遞出了，但是你現在……"],["陳院長建仁：但是沒有得到回應，而且還得到M503這樣的一個回應，這是惡意的回應啊！"],["林委員思銘：你已經遞出了，然後你也已經善意表示出去，讓我們的旅行業者可以組團過去……"],["陳院長建仁：但是我們沒有得到善意，而且還得到惡意的回應。"],["林委員思銘：但是你突然間又無預警的講說不能去……"],["陳院長建仁：我剛才跟委員報告過，就是如果我們5月底之前得到了善意的回應時，這樣一個暫停的情況就可以恢復……"],["林委員思銘：院長，我還是要告訴你一下……"],["陳院長建仁：所以我們仍然有善意喔！我們仍然有善意……"],["林委員思銘：我要以非常沉重的心情告訴你……"],["陳院長建仁：我還是有善意。"],["林委員思銘：請政府正視兩岸政策，拜託政府不要再限制兩岸的正常交流。國安非常重要……"],["陳院長建仁：我們沒有限制……"],["邱主任委員太三：是他們在限制！"],["陳院長建仁：我們有開放……"],["林委員思銘：國家利益也很重要，但是那不是政府沒有依法行政的藉口……"],["陳院長建仁：委員，你剛好講相反了！"],["林委員思銘：更不是任性，沒有法源依據……"],["陳院長建仁：有，有法源依據。"],["林委員思銘：就像小孩吵架……"],["邱主任委員太三：我剛剛不是講有法律依據。"],["林委員思銘：我們上層不爽就說不能，就突然丟一句……"],["邱主任委員太三：報告委員，不然發展觀光條例中不能損害國家利益的部分你們可以刪掉。"],["林委員思銘：如果是如你剛才說的，考量到他們沒有善意釋出，那你為什麼在11月宣布3月1號開始可以全面開放，為什麼3月1號宣布說可以，突然間又說6月不可以……"],["陳院長建仁：3月1號是因為……"],["林委員思銘：所以你的政策是朝令夕改。"],["陳院長建仁：沒有，我們等待他的善意，即使他們到現在為止沒有釋出善意，而且還推出了M503這個移置的情況要取消，引起了飛航的危險，所以我們覺得善意沒有，惡意有，在這樣的一個情況下，我們暫停我們的團客計畫，我們還在等待善意之中，我們的善意還在……"],["林委員思銘：當然啦！你們強行去找出法律的基礎……"],["陳院長建仁：橄欖枝還在。"],["林委員思銘：但是我覺得這個法律基礎是很牽強的，那什麼時候可以解除？我這樣講，請你回答，什麼時候可以解除？你告訴我。看起來你的法律基礎非常薄弱，你什麼時候可以解除這個禁令？"],["邱主任委員太三：剛剛不是提到了嘛！因為發展觀光條例，這是法律的規定……"],["林委員思銘：好啦！瞭解，我現在是說，你什麼時候可以解除這個禁令？可以把6月1號的禁令解除？"],["陳院長建仁：對方要釋出善意啦！"],["邱主任委員太三：剛剛不是講了嘛！只要不損害國家利益，我們當然都可以解除，因為這是法律的規定，我們要遵守這個法律啊！"],["林委員思銘：可是這已經限制人民的工作權了……"],["邱主任委員太三：就是因為法律規定才可以啊！"],["林委員思銘：也限制人民自由遷徙的權利。"],["邱主任委員太三：委員，憲法不是規定說限制人民的權利義務要有法律依據，這個法律依據就在發展觀光條例。"],["林委員思銘：好，這個問題我們在這裡打住了，兩位部長請回。好，交通部長先等一下，我要問你交通的問題。對於我們新竹的交通問題，尤其竹北，本席從過去到現在對於新竹的交通建設，包含五楊高架延伸到頭份段，或者興建高鐵橋下道路，還有這個新闢的科技大橋，就是竹東的中正大橋，都是為了解決地方長期的交通問題，並促進地方進一步發展。我們在爭取經費的過程當中，當然行政院也都有給予我們補助，尤其是高鐵橋下第1期、第2期、第3期都給我們補助，也已經完成這個聯絡道，讓我們新竹的竹北到竹科可以有一條讓大家都很便利、安全的道路行駛，以有效紓緩高鐵六家站到新竹科學園區的路程，縮短大概有15分鐘，我想這個都是政府的德政，但是楊頭高架，就是楊梅到頭份這一段，據我所知，目前的進度是環評已經通過了嘛！"],["王部長國材：對。"],["林委員思銘：環評已經通過了，高公局也在11月29日將計畫奉行政院來核定，請問這個計畫什麼時候可以核定？"],["陳院長建仁：我們按照審議的情況，我們當然是會儘快來進行，這個部分我請交通部再補充。"],["王部長國材：現在計畫書送到行政院，基本上是支持，所以應該很快，這個很快。"],["林委員思銘：很快就會核定？"],["王部長國材：核定以後就是細設，就開始進入我們興建的過程了。"],["林委員思銘：是，我想這個部分依據現在你們的施政預估，仍然需要到2031年才能完工，也就是說還要塞7年，我希望能夠趕快核定、趕快動工，而且縮短它的時程，否則這個真的塞太久了。","另外我要同時建請交通部，因為我一直希望我們的楊頭高架要利用這次機會銜接台68快速道路，請問這個快速道路有同步規劃完成嗎？"],["王部長國材：的確台68就是跟國一、國三都沒接的啦，所以的確我們要利用這次的機會希望把它接到延伸線，延伸到苗栗的這一段，現在高公局也在……"],["林委員思銘：所以台68一定會接？"],["王部長國材：現在是他把它放進去，現在在作研究，要把它放進去，的確是這樣。"],["林委員思銘：部長，這部分誠如您剛剛講的，就是全臺灣唯一快速道路沒有接高速公路的就是我們新竹這一條橫向的台68號快速道路，我希望行政院重視這個問題啦！"],["陳院長建仁：我們很重視啦！"],["林委員思銘：蘇貞昌院長的時候他有去看，看的時候蘇院長就當場裁示說這一條勢必要克服萬難去接台68快速道路，所以我要在這邊跟院長請命，我真的要拜託這一條勢必一定要做，一定要接上去，克服萬難！"],["陳院長建仁：好，我們會好好來做可行性評估啦！"],["林委員思銘：因為水利署那邊對橋墩落墩的部分有一些問題，我想這些工程技術應該都可以克服，所以請部長來協助、請行政院來協助，一定要接啦！否則沒有辦法完善的解決快速道路銜接高速公路，讓我們的聯絡網都非常的完善，所以這部分一定要去做。","另外，竹科三期臺知園區的問題想請教內政部林右昌部長。"],["陳院長建仁：竹科三期的話，是內政部都市計畫的部分。"],["林委員思銘：是，交通部部長請回。"],["林部長右昌：委員，竹科……"],["林委員思銘：我先講一下，我想竹東鎮竹科三期這個部分在民國76年就已經劃定為竹科三期用地，拖到現在你看多久了都沒有結論，當然後來我們也在108年開始有變更成為工研院附近的整個都市計畫案，在這期間也開了四次小組會議來審議，相關的公民團體也在會議中表達完整的意見，新竹縣政府目前也已經整合完成，並且已經補送完整的資料到內政部了，所以我想請問這一個案子何時可以召開專案小組審議？何時可以審議後送大會？"],["林部長右昌：謝謝委員垂詢，我想這個案子現在已經在收斂，縣府的部分在1月17日的時候有把補充的相關資料送回來內政部，所以我們最近就會繼續召開專案小組會議來進行相關議題的討論，後續就依程序繼續走下去。"],["林委員思銘：所以行政院是全力支持囉？內政部全力支持了？因為延宕太久了！"],["林部長右昌：我剛剛跟委員報告這個已經在收斂了，所以相關問題基本上已經釐清，縣府也已經送回來了，所以我們接下來就趕快進行專案小組會議，把相關議題釐清之後……"],["林委員思銘：部長，我想我在四年來每一個總質詢我都在提，為什麼我要不斷的去提這個案子？因為竹科三期你看從76年到現在已經延宕幾年了？四十幾年！所以它有其必要性和急迫性，所有的民眾因為限建，所以在那邊已經被禁限建很久了，大家對那個土地的利用都受到很大的一個限制，所以我要拜託院長、拜託部長，真的，我們加緊腳步，讓竹科三期儘速地通過。","另外還有一個園區，就是臺灣知識經濟園區（竹北的臺知園區），就在我們竹北生醫園區的對面這一塊土地，我想這一樣，也是當時被規劃為我們國家重大經濟建設案，尤其這個園區未來可以成為我們北臺灣科技、資訊、金融、經濟和商業的中心，尤其是AI產業的發展，我想這個園區本來就設定我們要作為AI產業園區發展，要結合我們科技智慧的一個城市，但是我們現在已經延宕30年了，都還沒看到園區的雛型……"],["陳院長建仁：對，我想可能委員很清楚為什麼會延宕。"],["林委員思銘：所以這個園區到底是卡在哪裡，為什麼我們都一直沒有辦法讓它審議通過？"],["陳院長建仁：我想很重要的就是縣政府它需要把溝通的結果、還有相關的資料來加以補充。委員，你是當地的立委，所以你很清楚延宕30年的原因在什麼地方，因為民眾有不同的意見……"],["林委員思銘：是，我跟院長、跟部長來說明。院長……"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["林委員思銘：我們楊縣長都非常努力去跟地主溝通，而且現在同意的地主高達百分之九十幾，只有少部分不同意……"],["陳院長建仁：所以這個部分需要縣政府的努力……"],["林委員思銘：所以他也積極地去溝通，但是我們不能因為少數人一直在那邊就是不願意……"],["陳院長建仁：相關的資料……"],["林委員思銘：他就是不贊成，結果我們一直沒辦法去審議通過……"],["陳院長建仁：相關的程序……"],["林委員思銘：難道就一直卡在那邊嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我剛才講過嘛，縣府溝通的結果、還有它的資料補充過來以後，我們再來看看審查的狀況是怎麼樣。縣府是扮演一個很重要的溝通角色，就如同剛才我們講的竹科三期那個情況是一樣的，如果有很好的溝通，民眾反對的意見都能夠……"],["林委員思銘：院長，我希望院長要支持臺灣發展智慧產業、支持臺知園區儘速開發啊！"],["陳院長建仁：我們行政院的立場一定是支持智慧產業的發展，一定。"],["林委員思銘：好，謝謝。"],["主席：報告院會，本日排定質詢的委員均已質詢完畢，謝謝陳院長、謝謝鄭副院長以及各部會首長列席答詢。現在作以下決定：下次會議繼續進行質詢。現在散會。","散會（17時2分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":236,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-1","speakers":["韓國瑜","黃國昌","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","莊瑞雄","洪孟楷","許智傑","林思銘"],"page_start":22,"meetingDate":["2024-02-20"],"gazette_id":"1130401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130401_00003","1130401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第 11 屆第 1 會期第 1 次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告並備質詢─ 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電價如果一直漲上去 會不會造成物價失控"},{"start":249.178,"end":250.119,"text":"所以我們要如何解決台電虧損的問題因為我們現在看到的"},{"start":280.26,"end":291.713,"text":"臺電連年虧損每年都在虧損那我們就只有兩招一個就是補助一個是漲電價就剛才正如這個院長你講的就是要漲電價讓他不要虧損"},{"start":292.864,"end":306.799,"text":"但是他又一直虧損阿到底要怎麼樣子讓他不會虧損因為這個台灣的原料一定都是要進口那這個是國際的價格的機制這個我們沒有辦法解決但是用政府的補貼確實可以讓電價不要漲這麼多那台灣的這個物價"},{"start":311.924,"end":313.765,"text":"部長你保證說如果我們這一波又用我們這一次的超真的"},{"start":338.093,"end":342.835,"text":"您的目的就是希望台電不要虧損嗎?但是您能保證我們這些措施做下去明年台電不會虧損嗎?"},{"start":367.365,"end":391.985,"text":"因為今年我們一定要確保今年臺電的平衡所以我們治標不治本這樣聽起來就是保證今年能夠讓他平穩那明年呢明年因為這個相關的燃料價格的部分國際的波動都還要再看其實這個我想這個行政院或者經濟部其實我們很想告訴你的就是說臺電的虧損問題要如何解決"},{"start":394.887,"end":422.01,"text":"面臨到我們的能源政策是否要重新去審視檢討的一個問題我想我們這個臺灣的整體能源政策這當然不僅牽涉到該您提到的整個全世界因為這個原料上漲的一個問題當然台電他本身的經營管理以及我們這個政府的規劃徹底的解決方案是什麼這部分我們也要去"},{"start":422.483,"end":423.563,"text":"我們沒有電力不足為什麼台電一直虧損"},{"start":452.435,"end":453.496,"text":"所以不是能源政策有問題嗎?"},{"start":460.111,"end":462.172,"text":"我只請教院長有沒有就我的問題你回答我的問題"},{"start":484.125,"end":487.086,"text":"一旦要申請研議的時候也要到最起碼兩年到四年以後才能夠再繼續發電那所以呢這是一個反不及急的一個做法"},{"start":509.232,"end":512.736,"text":"對於政府對台電持續虧損或電價一直上漲到底政府的規劃與徹底解決方案是什麼?"},{"start":534.264,"end":535.125,"text":"你可以以正確詢問告訴我嗎"},{"start":556.056,"end":560.539,"text":"部長我想您試圖解釋就是說因為我們的電價太低了所以你勢必要漲我們當然優先還是希望政府能夠給我們補貼韓國跟日本他們也有讓他們的核能相關核電廠有研議這樣的一個"},{"start":584.775,"end":585.336,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":606.936,"end":635.538,"text":"馬上標準我們核電目前的都是用到40年的期間我只想知道行政院的態度我想你們持續的要去做一個而且現在如果要研議核電廠要研議現在新北市的那個很多的儲存廠的部分的配合還有民意的同意的這個都很重要我現在再請問院長兩岸關係我們剛剛很多委員也一直持續關心我們這一次的"},{"start":637.139,"end":640.962,"text":"祖團島觀光旅遊6月禁止的一個禁令"},{"start":642.082,"end":665.879,"text":"那我想從這個法律面來這個請教一下我想我們交通部原本規劃3月1號起要恢復旅行社招攬旅遊團到大陸但是我們卻又無預警的停止無預警完全沒有講突然一直禁令就來了只限3到5月可出團6月之後全面禁止旅遊團赴大陸我不曉得這個"},{"start":667.36,"end":689.976,"text":"這個考量是什麼你為什麼不講8月為什麼不講10月為什麼不講12月你只說6月開始又禁止這個到底這個考量的點在哪裡那如果說是6月後復入是損害國家的利益3月到5月間出團就沒有損害國家的利益嗎我想看還我剛才也聽到這個我繼續講完院長你再統一回答那剛才這個"},{"start":695.725,"end":696.105,"text":"一點都不奇怪"},{"start":722.418,"end":723.799,"text":"人民要到大陸去必須得到許可"},{"start":738.785,"end":756.138,"text":"但是因為兩岸的情勢不斷的變化兩岸條例也做了一些修改所以加上人民要求說你怎麼可以限制我去所以我們現在大概只有在第9條那些特定的政務人員或者是核心關鍵技術人員我們才有管制他個人的部分"},{"start":757.048,"end":771.357,"text":"所以現在來講人民才要到大陸去經商、讀書、探經等等這是他的權益但是旅行業他是涉及到包括消費者包括國家的觀光政策還有國家的利益"},{"start":780.817,"end":798.973,"text":"主委我告訴你啦我告訴你啦現在你雖然禁止組團你現在知道民間是怎麼做的嗎他們照常組團到中國大陸去他們照常就是買個人機票然後到大陸就會合那這對他們去旅遊有保障嗎"},{"start":800.191,"end":813.536,"text":"如果有旅遊業者組團到中國大陸我想對我們整個國人到中國大陸去旅遊觀光對他們的安全也好對他們的便利性也好這個都是比較有保障的"},{"start":814.522,"end":839.684,"text":"所以我是個人是認為說你講說這個會損害國家利益我看不出來這個國家利益是在哪裡八百億喔我們應該也要賺他們八百億嘛是你剛才一直提到說這個要互惠嘛要互惠嘛因為我過去問你你也跟我講說要互惠啦但是我在想如果說我們都沒有去主動搭建善意的橋樑"},{"start":842.647,"end":854.997,"text":"你現在交通部已經宣布 去年8月23號就做了宣布3月1號可以開始把這個組團委員 去年8月23號我們就宣布了我們要開放 時間點就是他但是我想說我現在是針對這一次的政策就是說我們交通部已經宣布說3月開始可以組團過去"},{"start":864.324,"end":890.055,"text":"但是現在突然一直這個行政民營一直盡力就說不可以我們不曉得這樣的一個這樣的一個政策是有什麼樣的一個考量當然大家一直講說是什麼M503﹖或者剛剛交通部也一直講說這樣子這個有損國家利益當然有損但是我要跟這個主委我們都念法律的"},{"start":891.624,"end":914.082,"text":"憲法規定人民有居住及遷徙的自由權利然後我們憲法也說15條規定人民的生存權工作權財產權應該予以保障大法官釋制第430號解釋也針對法律明確性的原則一貫的認為需符合可理解可預見可審查三個要件"},{"start":915.278,"end":942.572,"text":"發展觀光條例所謂有損害國家利益它根本不符合我們法律明確性的原則所以我覺得這個政策推出來突然間推出來無預警這根本政府就是沒有在依法行政錯了委員我想我要建議委員再往下看在發展觀光條例第66條第三項有關於旅行業的經營跟管理跟督導是由主管機關訂定"},{"start":944.053,"end":944.393,"text":"律行業管理規則"},{"start":958.869,"end":977.315,"text":"這一次在管理規則裡面第49條第19管它裡面就有所謂的涉及到國家利益的這個管理的機制所以它完全按照發展觀光條例依法律的規定來給予限制人民的權利跟自由這是符合憲法的規定"},{"start":979.231,"end":992.551,"text":"秀華不是這樣規定嗎 要限制人民的權利跟義務 一定要有法律規定阿 是阿 要法律法律規則阿 他整個委員會就賦予他 如果影響到國家利益的時候 那你在管理規則裡面要去處理阿"},{"start":993.878,"end":1010.774,"text":"現在問題就出在這裏了對 但是管理規則定了每次都有送到貴院來 審查或備查你這個邏輯跟我不通你一直講說組團到你可以讓我們中華民國的人民到中國旅遊但是他們組團要去你跟我講說不行一個是產業 一個是業者"},{"start":1014.637,"end":1016.218,"text":"現在大家都偷偷摸摸去做"},{"start":1035.343,"end":1047.478,"text":"本來這個把這個禁令拿掉大家都很高興那所有的旅行業者都啊終於可以組團去中國大陸可以保障他們的生計疫情這4年來讓他們已經悶了多久"},{"start":1048.106,"end":1068.98,"text":"我個人是覺得我們如果把這個橄欖枝遞到中國大陸他們應該要有善意回應我相信會有善意的回應我想委員跟對岸呼籲一下讓他們有善意的回應2019年8月1號禁止路人到台灣來自由行"},{"start":1069.36,"end":1070.381,"text":"政府的遭令細改已經造成李詢業者信賴"},{"start":1087.759,"end":1088.78,"text":"委員我可以回答嗎"},{"start":1105.938,"end":1119.966,"text":"委員是這樣子一般組團都是3個月以前組團的那現在我們為什麼會到5月底呢就是因為我們截止的說我們開始暫停的這一個時間呢剛好有"},{"start":1120.726,"end":1123.307,"text":"最重要的情況還是大陸要釋出善意從剛才講的2019年開始大陸就不准人民到台灣來觀光"},{"start":1139.835,"end":1154.31,"text":"所以我覺得更重要的是我們草野都應該合作起來去請對方釋出善意這才是最重要的因為過去您也一直跟我講這件事情但是我還是希望說那個主委過去在內政委員會您一直說"},{"start":1154.932,"end":1164.415,"text":"您會遞出橄欖枝 您上次就這樣講了所以您遞出了嗎 您遞出了但是沒有得到回應 而且還得到M503的這樣的一個回應這是惡意的回應嗎但是我們沒有得到的善意 而且還得到惡意的回應我剛才跟委員報告過就是說 如果我們在5月"},{"start":1179.821,"end":1182.284,"text":"請政府正式兩岸政策拜託政府不要再限制兩岸的正常交流"},{"start":1200.442,"end":1202.004,"text":"有法源依據剛剛不是講有法源依據阿"},{"start":1217.762,"end":1218.543,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":1237.739,"end":1237.859,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":1259.927,"end":1279.297,"text":"您強行去找出法律的基礎,但是我覺得這個法律基礎是很牽強的,那什麼時候可以解除?我這樣講,這樣回答,什麼時候可以解除?您告訴我,因為這樣看起來你的法律基礎非常薄弱,你什麼時候可以解除這個禁令?"},{"start":1282.383,"end":1283.243,"text":"因為發展觀光條例這是法律的規定"},{"start":1304.106,"end":1316.458,"text":"這已經限制人民的工作權了也限制人民的這個自由遷徙的一個權利憲法不是規定說限制人民的權利以後要用法律的依據嘛那法律的依據就在發展台灣經濟"},{"start":1321.083,"end":1333.619,"text":"交通部長林欣 等一下我要問你交通的問題我想對於我們新竹交通的問題尤其竹北我想本期從過去到現在對於我們新竹的交通建設"},{"start":1334.605,"end":1361.635,"text":"包含五陽高架延伸到頭份段或新建高鐵橋下道路還有新闢科技大橋竹東中正大橋都是為了解決地方長期交通問題並促進地方進一步發展我們在爭取經費過程當中當然行政院也都有給予我們補助尤其高鐵橋下"},{"start":1362.574,"end":1384.164,"text":"第一期第二期第三期都給我們補助也已經完成聯絡到讓我們新竹的竹北到竹科有一條可以讓大家有一個很便利安全的道路可以行駛來有效舒緩高鐵六家站到新竹科學園區這樣的一個路程"},{"start":1384.684,"end":1385.084,"text":"緩頻已經通過了"},{"start":1404.586,"end":1410.652,"text":"高工局也在11月29號將計畫復行行政院合定請問這個計畫什麼時候可以合定"},{"start":1416.668,"end":1443.09,"text":"按照這個審議的這個情況我們當然是會盡快的來進行那這個部分我請交通部再補充現在今天就要送到行政院那基本上是支持所以應該很快很快就會核定然後這個核定以後來就是細設就開始進入進入這個我們的興建的過程是我想這個這個部分依據現在的你們的一個施政的一個預估"},{"start":1445.031,"end":1445.331,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":1474.378,"end":1501.281,"text":"請問這個快速道路有同步規劃完的嗎的確 台六八是台灣最難就是跟國一國三都沒接的所以這一次的確我們在利用這一次的機會是希望把它接到這個我們這個延伸線延伸到這個苗栗的這一段所以台六八一定會接現在是他把它放進去現在在做研究要把它放進去的確是這樣"},{"start":1502.102,"end":1527.194,"text":"所以部長這部分陳主任應該講的就是我們全台灣唯一快速道路沒有接高速公路的就是我們新竹這條橫向的台68號快速道路我希望行政院重視這個問題過去蘇貞昌院長的時候他有去看看的時候蘇院長就當場才是說這條勢必要克服萬難去接台68號快速道路"},{"start":1527.934,"end":1543.942,"text":"所以我要在這邊跟院長請命我真的要拜託這條勢必一定要做一定要接上去克服萬難因為有一些這個所謂的水利署那邊對橋墩落墩的問題有一些問題我想這些工程技術應該都可以克服"},{"start":1544.642,"end":1563.256,"text":"所以請部長來協助請行政院來協助一定要接啦否則這個沒有辦法完善的解決我們這個快速道路銜接高速公路讓我們的聯絡網都能夠非常的完善所以這部分一定要去做另外這個"},{"start":1567.031,"end":1576.515,"text":"竹科三期臺資源區的問題請內政部林厚昌部長竹科三期的話都是計畫的部分是部長請回教務部"},{"start":1585.972,"end":1605.186,"text":"主柯三期我先講一下部長我想這個卓東鎮主柯三期這個部分在民國76年就已經劃定為主柯三期用地那拖到現在你看多久都沒有結論當然後來我們也在108年開始我們有變更成為公園院附近的"},{"start":1605.606,"end":1629.926,"text":"整個一個都市計劃案那在這期間也開了4次的小組會議來審議那相關的公民團體也在會議中表達完整的意見新竹縣政府目前也已經整合完成並且已經補送完整的資料到內政部了所以我想請問這一個案子那我們何時可以召開專案小組審議何時可以審議後送大會"},{"start":1633.132,"end":1647.906,"text":"是,謝謝委員垂詢我想這個案子現在已經在收斂那縣府的部分在1月17號的時候有把補充的相關的資料有送回來內政部所以我們最近就會繼續召開專案小組的一個會議"},{"start":1649.239,"end":1677.902,"text":"來進行相關議題的一個討論那這個後續就依程序繼續走下去所以行政院是全力支持囉我跟委員報告說這個已經在收斂了所以相關的問題基本上已經釐清那縣府也已經回回來所以我們接下來就趕快進行專案小組的會議來把相關議題釐清之後確認部長這個案子我想我在4年來每一個這個總質詢我都在提啦為什麼我要不斷地"},{"start":1678.682,"end":1705.119,"text":"去提這個案子因為竹科三期你看76年到現在已經延宕幾年了40幾年所以它有它的必要性跟急迫性所有的民眾因為限建所以在那邊被禁限很久了大家對那個土地的利用都受到很大的限制所以我要拜託院長拜託部長真的我們加緊腳步讓竹科三期進入的通過"},{"start":1706.089,"end":1732.462,"text":"另外還有一個園區就是台灣知識經濟園區竹北的台積園區就在我們的竹北生醫園區的對面這一塊土地我想這一樣這個也是當時被規劃為我們的國家重大經濟建設案那尤其這個園區它未來可以成為我們陪台灣科技資訊金融經濟和商業的中心尤其是AI的產業的發展"},{"start":1733.863,"end":1762.821,"text":"我想這個部分這個園區本來就設定我們要作為AI產業園區發展要結合我們科技智慧的一個程式但是我們現在已經延誕30年了現在我們都還沒看到園區的出景所以這個園區到底是卡在哪裡為什麼我們都這個一直沒有辦法讓他這個審議通過我想很重要的就是縣政府他需要把這個溝通的結果還有相關的資料來加以補充那委員你是當地的"},{"start":1763.908,"end":1785.138,"text":"立委所以你很清楚延宕30年的原因在什麼地方我跟院長跟部長來說明 院長我們楊縣長都非常努力去跟地主溝通而且現在同意的地主高達百分之九十幾趴所以這個部分需要縣政府的努力所以他也積極的去溝通但是我們不能因為少數人一直在那邊他就是"},{"start":1786.779,"end":1793.457,"text":"相關的資料他就是不贊成結果我們一直沒辦法去審議通過就一直卡在那邊嗎"},{"start":1794.582,"end":1796.383,"text":"我希望院長要支持臺灣發展智慧產業"},{"start":1834.864,"end":1839.031,"text":"報告院會本日排列諮詢的委員均已執行完畢"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}