{"error":false,"id":["149129"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149129,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149129","日期":"2024-02-23","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"院會-11-1-2","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期第2次會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":2,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"院會","標題":"立法院第11屆第1會期第2次會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-02-23T10:59:04+08:00","結束時間":"2024-02-23T11:14:34+08:00","影片長度":"00:15:30","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/61d28f3f53a2feb62b3a03a85804d361b347916f9bc661eaf8ba9b0039caa7a657cb904821a75d585ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"10:59:04 - 11:14:34","會議時間":"2024-02-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第2次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、2月23日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、2月27日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","gazette":{"lineno":518,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（10時59分）有請陳院長。"],["陳院長建仁：委員，恭喜你當選。"],["李委員坤城：謝謝院長。院長，今天是2月23日，院長終於可以到立法院來做食安的專案報告了。其實如果在2月19日朝野協商的時候，民眾黨的黨團總召願意簽下那個朝野協商，老實說院長就可以提早3天，2月20日開議當天你就可以來做食安報告了，對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：確實，還好這3天我們都是持續地在把關食安。"],["李委員坤城：是啊，本來是說20日開議當天你就可以來做食安報告了，但是有人不簽這個朝野協商。所以說你看嘛，在這之後還出現有在野黨希望加開院會，或者是說在開議當天還有在野黨拿著麥克風違規在這邊吵鬧。如果當天就讓你來做這個食安的專案報告，後續就不會有那些鬧劇了啦！"],["陳院長建仁：民眾也更放心。"],["李委員坤城：對啊！因為民眾希望能夠做食安報告，所以當然是希望你在20日開議當天就來嘛！對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["李委員坤城：好，雖然晚了3天，民眾還是想知道一下，在馬英九執政的時候和蔡英文執政的時候，食安到底有什麼不一樣。剛剛聽了院長的報告，我先針對瘦肉精的部分來請教一下院長：在馬英九執政的時期，我查到的資料是違規使用瘦肉精的部分有抓到3個豬農使用，這是我查到的資料，或許更多也不一定。但是在蔡英文執政的時期有沒有查出本地豬農使用瘦肉精的資料，尤其是台糖？我剛剛看到上一位質詢的陳委員的資料，他的資料是2011年到2015年，我們民進黨是2016年才執政耶！所以他用的資料是馬英九執政時期的資料啊！那我請教一下，在蔡英文執政這8年期間有沒有本地豬農或是這次的苦主台糖有違規使用瘦肉精？"],["陳院長建仁：台糖沒有使用瘦肉精，這是很確定的一件事情，豬農使用的狀況我請部長來補充說明。"],["李委員坤城：好，請你來說明一下。"],["陳代理部長駿季：第一個部分是近10年來在103、104有2件，106有2件，都是在豬場端就即時攔阻下來；上一個10年就滿多的，大概有一千多件，包括……"],["李委員坤城：你現在是講執政前和執政後嘛？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對……"],["李委員坤城：你講的那個10年前是馬英九執政的時期？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，特別是在97年那一年大概有八百多件，後來又降了大概一百多件左右。事實上整個國內的豬場禁用瘦肉精是一個政策，這個政策是在那個情況之下，我們一直希望國內豬隻的產業是不用瘦肉精的，所以後來就開始逐漸下降，從106年以後就沒有檢出。"],["李委員坤城：沒有檢出了嘛！"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["李委員坤城：那就是在我們……因為2016年是蔡英文執政嘛！","當然，沒有檢出跟有沒有使用，我認為是兩件事情，但是就我們來講，你們已經跟豬農尤其是台糖說不能使用瘦肉精，這是很重要的事情。等一下我會問到台糖的事情，現在先給院長看一個數字：921比1。院長，你知道這是什麼數字嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：921是885件全國豬肉的樣品加上台糖自己同批次的肉品檢驗，結果出來都是沒有檢驗到瘦肉精。"],["李委員坤城：沒有含瘦肉精！"],["陳院長建仁：對，都沒有檢出。"],["李委員坤城：沒有含西布特羅！"],["陳院長建仁：當然沒有！"],["李委員坤城：所以你看嘛！包含衛福部、農業部、台糖自行檢驗，到目前為止，921件都沒有問題，只有一件有問題，那一件就是臺中市政府檢查出來的嘛！對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["李委員坤城：所以我們今天的焦點就在於，這一件「天選之肉」、這一包肉到底是怎麼出來的？等一下我們要問的就是，因為我剛剛有聽到院長在講，行政院研判這是屬於單一檢體問題，而非系統性事件，就這個單一檢體的問題，能不能請院長或是部長再說明清楚，單一檢體到底出現了什麼問題？"],["陳院長建仁：單一檢體是他們到市場去採購以後拿回來就檢驗，檢驗結果根據臺中市的講法是有22次的檢驗，因為它檢驗不穩定……"],["李委員坤城：就檢驗那一塊肉嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：對，就檢驗那一塊肉，對、對、對。"],["李委員坤城：所以臺中市政府在檢驗那一塊肉之外，有沒有檢查同批次其他的肉？有沒有？"],["陳院長建仁：沒有。"],["李委員坤城：沒有？"],["陳院長建仁：就我所知，沒有。"],["李委員坤城：所以當時它通知衛福部有檢查出西布特羅，你們沒有建議他們同批次的豬肉也去做檢查？"],["薛部長瑞元：跟委員報告，他當初到市場去採樣，同時有找出另外一個，但它不是同一批，而且那是豬小排肉，那一個沒有檢出。所以他在那個福利站找了2包，一包就是這一個，那另外一包是一個小排，那個沒有檢出。"],["李委員坤城：沒有……"],["陳代理部長駿季：我可以稍微比較清楚地補充一下，就是在2月2號臺中市政府發布新聞稿以後，我們當天下午就成立了一個專案小組，馬上去找同一批的肉品，因為它有溯源碼。我們找同一批的肉品，在2月3號總共找到了9包，那9包裡面我們分送了，由畜產會去檢驗4包，然後衛福部檢驗2包，另外我們用SGS去檢驗，所以在2月4號，我們初步認定整個同一批、同品項的豬肉，並沒有所謂西布特羅的殘留污染。因為已經下架了，所以我們陸陸續續從下架的去找同樣的批號，後續再持續地檢驗也都沒有。"],["李委員坤城：所以當初臺中市政府說有驗出西布特羅的時候，有沒有跟他講說再驗一下其他同批次的肉，比較沒有問題的時候再公布？"],["陳院長建仁：委員，你講的對啦！其實在一般的檢驗過程當中，如果我們發現有哪一個肉品，尤其它的含量很低很低嘛！這個時候是應該要趕快通知相關的單位去找到同批次的檢體，再來重複檢驗，才能夠更加的確認。"],["李委員坤城：有沒有跟臺中市政府建議？"],["陳院長建仁：因為他們通知到我們的時候，實際上是有一段時間。因為他自己還糾纏在……"],["李委員坤城：那一塊肉？"],["陳院長建仁：還在同一塊肉啦！"],["李委員坤城：好，那我再請教一下，現在有查出來了，就是有4家業者有進口西布特羅，有12家衛生局跟12家的民間檢驗機構，那請問一下，這12家的衛生局是不是含臺中市政府？"],["陳院長建仁：當然、當然。"],["李委員坤城：含臺中市政府。那現在就是要查出來，你們除了做行政調查之外，有沒有做司法的調查？"],["陳院長建仁：我們是沒有進入司法的調查。"],["李委員坤城：這應該要進入司法調查吧？"],["陳院長建仁：最主要的情況是，第一個，這一個檢驗出來的濃度是相對的低，做司法調查的時候，我們通常在食品事件上就擔心所謂的千面人事件嘛！如果是千面人事件，在任何的食品當中檢驗出來不會有那麼低的濃度，那麼低的濃度有另外一種，除了剛才講到的污染可能性之外，還有一種是檢驗本身的不準度，所以這就是為什麼衛福部也好，農業部也好，我們的專家學者是從檢體的檢驗程序上來調查。"],["李委員坤城：本席建議行政調查歸行政調查，但是檢調、司法的調查，我認為要同步來進行。因為我認為到最後，不要讓這個案子成為懸案。我現在就是說……"],["陳院長建仁：我覺得……"],["李委員坤城：我自己歸納，現在包含行政部門或是民間所提出來的，梅花肉瘦肉精污染事件可能有2個可能性，第一個，實驗室的污染；第二個，就是你剛才提到的千面人的事件。那實驗室的污染，我舉民眾黨的主席柯文哲所講的，他說如果整批肉都測不出瘦肉精，只有臺中市政府檢驗出有問題的豬肉，那就有可能是實驗室的污染。對於柯文哲主席的說法，你們的看法怎麼樣？"],["陳院長建仁：我想這只是其中之一的可能性，因為溯源的情形不是很容易，實際上採取檢體到公布已經經過很長的一段時間，而且這一個實驗室本身並不像P3實驗室有錄影……"],["李委員坤城：這個有沒有可能性？"],["陳院長建仁：當然是有這種可能性。"],["李委員坤城：那有沒有要去調查？"],["陳院長建仁：這個調查就需要學者專家來調查，但是我剛才要跟委員強調的就是，因為時隔相當長的時間，而這個實驗室不像病毒的P3實驗室都有攝影啊！都有很多的紀錄嘛！在這樣檢驗的實驗室裡面，如果沒有這樣的紀錄的話，那是不容易查出……"],["李委員坤城：那是後續SOP的問題啦！"],["陳院長建仁：是、是、是。"],["李委員坤城：這是後續的問題。我舉例柯文哲說有可能實驗室污染，那第二個可能性就是你剛才也有提到的千面人，這不是只有你提到，嘉義縣養豬協會理事長林志達說這有可能是一個千面人事件，那有沒有朝這方面去查的可能性？"],["陳院長建仁：當時我們也瞭解了這一個實驗室去市場採購的時候，那個錄影帶有留下來，是沒有發現有任何異常的情況，但是……"],["李委員坤城：現在我認為行政調查，當然你們昨天也開了會，衛福部、農業部接下來開了會，但是司法調查部分，我覺得還是要進行。部長有話要說？"],["蔡部長清祥：跟委員說明，臺中地檢署有進行了解中。"],["李委員坤城：哪一部分？"],["蔡部長清祥：可能涉及刑責的部分。"],["李委員坤城：涉及刑責的部分？"],["蔡部長清祥：對。"],["李委員坤城：是哪一個範疇啊？涉及刑責的部分是指……"],["蔡部長清祥：因為有民眾檢舉，我們會根據外界的一些看法來進一步瞭解。"],["李委員坤城：大家都認為這個案子很重要，因為在過年前發生的嘛！我也不希望用到最後，後來就是沒有什麼事情了，變成一個懸案，我認為行政、司法都要去調查，因為這件事情，我問一下農業部長，豬肉有沒有受到影響？價格有沒有受到影響？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想豬肉如果從2月2日到過年前這段時間，它的平均豬肉單價是九十塊八，它比去年農曆同樣時段還高，所以看起來，我想我們國人對於我們國產豬肉的信心還是在的，沒有因為這樣的事件而受到一些衝擊。"],["李委員坤城：大家對台糖還是有信心就對了？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，對台糖還是有信心。"],["李委員坤城：對台糖有信心？好。但是對台糖有信心，台糖是不是苦主啊？台糖是苦主！請問一下，台糖在這次瘦肉精西布特羅事件當中，它的損失有多少？直接的損失跟間接的損失有多少？來，王部長。"],["王部長美花：跟委員報告，台糖初步有統計，直接的損失是一千七百多萬，間接的損失是三千多萬，所以它總共的損失大概是5,200萬。"],["李委員坤城：就是到目前為止，直接的損失就是因為下架？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["李委員坤城：下架，然後也不能賣……"],["王部長美花：還有回收，還有人家退貨的，還有這些檢驗的費用，還有相關的人力支出等等，這個部分大概是1,700萬。"],["李委員坤城：你說間接損失呢？三千多萬……"],["王部長美花：間接損失三千多萬，它初步的評估總共大概會損失5,200萬。"],["李委員坤城：好，我請教一下，因為如果連盧秀燕都說真相大白、這是個案，那麼請問一下，台糖這一批豬肉，你們預防性下架的這些豬肉大概沒辦法出了吧？沒辦法再重新上架了吧？"],["王部長美花：預防性下架的豬肉假設能夠快速釐清，並且都還在相關的有效期間，是不是可以再申請讓它可以上架，這樣的話，看能不能減少損失。不過這段期間減少的販售已經是非常多了。"],["李委員坤城：對啊！所以我說台糖是苦主嘛！"],["王部長美花：是。"],["李委員坤城：就是你講的直接影響跟間接影響了多少？五千多萬？"],["王部長美花：5,200萬。"],["李委員坤城：5,200萬，請問一下，那台糖去向誰求償？如果真的像盧秀燕講的真相大白了、這是個案，行政部門查到目前為止，921比1嘛！可見是個案的問題，我就問台糖那些肉品何時才可以回到市場？而台糖要去跟誰求償？"],["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},{"start":703.099,"end":724.451,"text":"價格有沒有受到影響?我想豬肉如果說我們從過年2月2號到過年前這段時間齁它的平均的豬肉的單價是90塊8它比去年農曆同樣的時段的時候是還比較高所以看起來我想我們國人對於我們國產豬肉的信心還是在的不會沒有因為這樣的一個事件而受到一些衝擊"},{"start":725.151,"end":743.337,"text":"大家對台堂還是有信心就對了對台堂還是有信心對台堂有信心好但是對台堂有信心呢台堂是苦主啊台堂是苦主請問一下台堂在這次的這個瘦肉精事件希伯特勒事件當中他的損失有多少直接的損失跟間接的損失有多少來王部長"},{"start":748.623,"end":764.251,"text":"剛剛委員報告齁那臺黨初步有那個統計一下那直接的損失是1700多萬那間接的損失是這個3000多萬所以他總共的這樣的損失大概是5200萬"},{"start":765.652,"end":787.437,"text":"就是到目前為止,時間損失就是因為下架,下架然後也不能買。還有回收,還有人家退貨的,還有去花這些檢驗的費用,還有相關的人力的支出等等。這個部分大概是1700萬。你說間接損失呢?間接損失3000多萬,是。它總共的初步的評估大概會損失5200萬。"},{"start":789.437,"end":802.953,"text":"好那我請教一下因為如果連盧秀燕她都說真相大白這是個案那請問一下臺堂這些JP你們預防性下降這些豬肉大概沒辦法出了吧"},{"start":803.985,"end":805.505,"text":"五千兩百萬是五千兩百萬請問一下"},{"start":833.032,"end":843.502,"text":"那台堂去向誰求償啊?如果真的像盧秀恩講的啊,真相大白啦,這是個案啊,那我們這個行政部門查到目前為止921比1嘛。"},{"start":845.37,"end":872.962,"text":"那可見是個案的問題那我就問說好那台糖那些肉品何時才可以在市場然後台糖要去跟誰求償阿是所以我想台糖在這個地方是確實受到非常多的一個委屈啦那他也希望能夠盡速釐清那第二個讓台糖的盛運能夠恢復台糖的肉可以再去上架這個是台糖非常需要的對阿所以台糖就是被打了也不敢吭聲嘛"},{"start":875.578,"end":892.466,"text":"明明盧修緣都講了這是個案真相大白了那他還是沒有辦法比如說損失了5000多萬然後肉也不能再重新再上架然後大家對於台糖雖然有信心但是買的時候還是稍微疑慮了一下我認為台糖該求償的時候還是在求償"},{"start":893.106,"end":921.941,"text":"好那最後30秒請教一下院長如果重來一次會給地方政府隨便人建議SOP會做調整嗎好謝謝我想很重要的就是說這一個臺中市政府的檢驗室他面對這個很低劑量的這個檢出的時候呢他應該要把他的SOP做一個很好的修正舉一個例子比如說應該要趕快去找同一批的豬肉來檢查如果地方政府SOP沒辦法建立那我們中央"},{"start":927.359,"end":927.6,"text":"主席"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}