{"error":false,"id":["149133"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149133,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149133","日期":"2024-02-23","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"院會-11-1-2","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期第2次會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":2,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"院會","標題":"立法院第11屆第1會期第2次會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-02-23T14:30:31+08:00","結束時間":"2024-02-23T14:46:54+08:00","影片長度":"00:16:23","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/61d28f3f53a2feb66b44bc35f5ac576ab347916f9bc661eaf8ba9b0039caa7a6bc38ae4df99baeaf5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"14:30:31 - 14:46:54","會議時間":"2024-02-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第2次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、2月23日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、2月27日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","gazette":{"lineno":2,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（14時30分）謝謝院長，辛苦了，有請陳建仁院長。"],["主席：請陳院長備詢。"],["吳委員思瑤：請衛福、環境、經濟3位部長一起。"],["主席：請3位部長備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：委員早。"],["吳委員思瑤：院長、大家都辛苦了。"],["陳院長建仁：不會，謝謝你，午安。"],["吳委員思瑤：食安專報紛紛擾擾，終於上路了，這段時間社會也真的付出了非常大有形跟無形的成本，到底這個事件誰是贏家，誰是輸家？我想社會可以清楚地斷定，在這個事件當中沒有人是贏家，所以我們無論如何要在這樣一個食安的個案事件上獲得正面的教訓，也就是我們好好來檢視台糖安心豚事件，臺灣社會究竟學到了什麼？我們如果可以從這個慘痛的經驗上獲得任何一點點讓我們更好的可能跟機會，我們就不是輸家。","首先，進入我的質詢之前，我要肯定，我觀察了今天早上我們官員們的表現，有為有守，該辯護、該大聲說的我們就大聲說，我非常肯定大仁哥今天也硬起來了。透過這個專案報告，我們可以很清楚地讓國人看到是誰在講科學，又是誰在搞政治，都會一一現形的，臺灣的公民素養是非常高的，同樣的，思瑤如果有講錯的訊息，我也請求行政部門要糾正我，這就是國會應當有的彼此尊重，我們來論理跟專業監督。","吳思瑤是這一屆立法院第一位針對食安問題提出質詢的委員，就在這個週二，我利用我的施政報告時間，我就針對食安議題來提出質詢，如果關心，隨時隨地我們有很多的方式可以監督行政部門，當然我還是樂見今天的食安專報可以更進一步的來聚焦跟探討。但同時吳思瑤也是立法院唯一可以在一週內有兩次機會在這裡跟您討論食安的委員，所以我很謝謝我們週二的討論，讓我有很多的吸收，讓我可以再進一步的回去思考反芻，作為一個專業的國會議員，我如何在政策上可以提出更好的針砭。","我週二的時候說了，食安就是心安，經過一再的驗證，我們可以清楚地知道，臺灣食安的政府體制是沒有問題的，現在的問題出在人民心慌慌，因為這個事件受傷了，所以我們無論如何要傾全力對於國人的心理建設要趕快補強起來。我重新再說一次幾個關鍵數字，有的update了，譬如說到底零檢出有幾盒，數字不斷地在攀升，今天最新的數字已經來到檢測921盒零檢出，所以921比1，從這個不斷攀升的數字，我記得禮拜二在這裡質詢的時候，從788盒到877盒，到今天921盒，都代表我們台糖秉持它的專業、負責，不斷地繼續檢驗，雖然我們可以斷定它是單一事件，還是不放棄要釐清真相，我看到我們台糖的努力跟行政部門的臂膀。第二個關鍵數字我要再說一次，兩年來西布特羅這個化學用藥只進口了789毫克，少於1cc，這麼微量的，所以我們也可以驗證到它沒有流入到任何的產銷、畜牧階段，它就是在實驗室使用。24個實驗室，臺中市政府就是其中一個有進口的單位。第三個關鍵數字，我們可以精準溯源做到台糖可以快速的下架274包，可以精準溯源去調查同一批生產的是2,730盒肉，可以細緻到個位數。這就告訴國人，台糖作為一個國家的品牌，可以安心、可以放心，台糖有能力、有專業，也負責任的，無論如何要追查事件到最後一刻。所以這幾個關鍵數字都告訴我們，我們國家的食安體制是沒有問題的，國人可以安心，不要驚慌啦！","我有一個新的key number，是今天專報我看到的新數字，早上也在跟王美花部長做進一步的確認，就是台糖是這個事件最大的受害者，但是台糖是國營事業，它的損害就是全民買單，不管有形、無形的、變動成本或是調動成本，財務損失高達5,253萬，5,253這個關鍵數字，美花部長沒有錯嘛？而台糖在這個事件當中，動員的人力高達741人次，包括台糖自己的工作同仁，還包括這些代送商，所以美花部長，台糖的損失怎麼替它平反？誰能來賠啊？"],["王部長美花：目前為止，我們趕快把這個事件釐清，然後確認台糖的豬肉是沒有問題的。我想目前的要務，我們是先做這件事情。"],["吳委員思瑤：很遺憾，沒有人能賠，全民買單，還好是台糖，國營事業、老字號，撐得住，如果這樣的一個事件、謠言發生在任何一個民間企業，3天就倒了啦！"],["陳院長建仁：很慘。"],["吳委員思瑤：但是我們有一件事情可以做，我覺得我辦公室的幕僚非常的可愛，他們都是年輕人，他們跟我說：老闆，台糖受傷這麼深，國家又沒有辦法給他們平反，五千多萬，開什麼玩笑！欸！我們可以做一件事，消費者就有最大的力量，我們一起台糖挺起來、台糖吃起來、台糖的產品買起來。剛剛中午我跟我助理去了一趟全聯，我們買了台糖的燕麥片。"],["王部長美花：謝謝。"],["吳委員思瑤：辦公室大家下午茶一下，我們買了台糖的手工水餃。"],["陳院長建仁：很好吃。"],["吳委員思瑤：我回家都是半夜，晚上半夜可以自己煮。我們買了砂糖，我喜歡吃甜，我助理特別幫我買這麼一大包，我不知道要吃多久。還有，台糖有很多的罐頭，我這裡是鳳梨罐頭，其實它有各類的罐頭。"],["陳院長建仁：很棒。"],["吳委員思瑤：我們要呼籲所有的消費者挺台糖、挺國家的好品牌，這是我今天在這裡拋出來的第一個訊號，我們可以在這個事件當中獲得一個正向的事情，否則就輸太多了，你們都同意嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我完全支持，我完全同意，太棒了！"],["吳委員思瑤：所以您要不要在臉書上鼓勵部會首長大家一起台糖買起來、台糖吃起來？"],["陳院長建仁：好，我今天會在臉書上來鼓勵大家多用台糖的產品，台糖的產品確實不錯。"],["吳委員思瑤：剛剛有說大仁哥喜歡吃水餃，我等一下這包就送給你，晚上就吃起來，宵夜就可以po上臉書。","除了有形的損失，其實無形的損失更是難以計算，我很少數可以同意柯文哲的說法，可是他這幾天說的話，我是同意的。他說：這就是實驗室污染嘛，這是簡單的判斷。然後他也說簡單的事情要簡單解決，還有很多事情要做，不要浪費時間在這種無聊的事情上，就是不要再「舞豬舞狗舞開花」了，所以柯文哲主席講的話，我也希望民眾黨的委員們要聽。我們希望政治上也要停損，不要讓議事再空轉，我們讓整個事件，最起碼讓我們的食安制度是如何地精進在國人面前被看到，而作為政治工作者，不要在這個事件上見縫插針，食安就是科學，食安不要搞政治。","回到專業問題，我們的食安專家會議已經開完了，養殖端沒問題，屠宰端沒問題，就是出在實驗室的檢測端有問題。您週二那天告訴我說大概兩週要結案，可不可能更快？好像事實釐清的大概……"],["陳院長建仁：對，他們經過開會以後，確實有很多的事實都已經釐清了，我們現在就請衛福部這一邊再……"],["吳委員思瑤：加快、加速。"],["陳院長建仁：加快、加速。"],["吳委員思瑤：無論如何3月份。那臺中市政府就問題大了，臺中市政府的責任怎麼來究責？"],["陳院長建仁：這個部分的話，專家委員會應該對於實驗的步驟、怎麼樣做得更好等等有一些看法；另外一件事情也是大家蠻關心的，就是它採到檢體到公布結果一共有18天的時間，可是當它一檢出來有西布特羅的時候，並沒有讓台糖有申請複驗這樣的一個機制，應該在宣布以前要有一個複驗的機制，可是這個機制並沒有進行就發布。"],["吳委員思瑤：謝謝院長的回復。所以說在實務上、事務上台糖事件教會臺灣的是至少我們中央政府幫地方政府一把，在體制上更完備，食安不分中央地方、不分政黨，我們協助地方政府來檢視而且精進它的檢驗作業，這個您這週二答應我要來做。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["吳委員思瑤：協助各個地方政府，也不要只針對臺中市政府，也許其他縣市政府……六都還是有能量的，也許有一些地方政府更需要專業的軟硬體協助，協助地方政府來精進檢驗作業的SOP，包括軟硬體。第二，改善資訊公開的流程，就您剛講的。那我要再進一步說，因為這次它的個案就是檢驗到非常非常極限值0.001……"],["陳院長建仁：2。"],["吳委員思瑤：0.002。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以在對外公開的這個流程裡頭，我個人認為是應當要有個分流的機制，就是說當一檢測那是大量的污染的時候，大量的擴散是系統性的研判的時候，趕快公布；但是如果是極微量的可能就要斟酌，也就是如您剛剛講的，為什麼臺中市政府18天驗來驗去同一塊肉，其實在這個部分他們需要檢視，中央可以幫忙他們。","至於盧秀燕怎麼究責？我覺得兩條路，臺中市議會3月8號就要召開食安的專案會議，就回到地方政府負起政治責任，監督畢竟是在地方政府。對於邀請盧秀燕市長到立法院來備詢或報告，我個人是持比較保留啦！我認為還是基於地方自治。但是另外一個部分，也許監察院是可以協助釐清這整個事實很重要的一個調查機關，也許監委們聽到呼籲，我沒有辦法指揮監委，當然基於分際之間，也許這會是一個協助進一步調查的必要手段。","馬英九任內跟蔡英文任內的食安大型事件，我那天分享了，7比2，7件在馬英九任內，我們任內有2件，我們儘量做到零容忍，但是在進步的這件事情是不容抹煞的。所以這幾年來建組織、修法案、增預算，我們8年投入92.5億來進行食安的提升，遠比馬英九在2016年把政權交到我們手上的時候多了2.3倍。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["吳委員思瑤：我呼籲朝野的立委繼續來監督、繼續來支持，做不好就給資源、做不好就來修法，而不是處處為難，所以我要刻意再把這樣的資訊羅列出來。","最後一部分是我今天最在意的部分，食安在進步，可是臺灣的假訊息讓臺灣大退步，我很赫然地發現有一個北歐的專業權威調查，謠言惑眾、假訊息最嚴重的國家，臺灣連續十年是全球的冠軍，臺灣成為一個謠言惑眾世界NO1耶！這對我們來講何其不堪啊！而官方打假，我這裡提出來的是食藥署在2015年成立一個食藥闢謠專區，所以9年來有566件的假消息，當中食品類有350件，占六成，其他有醫療器材的假消息、化妝品的假消息跟藥品的假消息，非常的嚴重，9年來有566件，六成是食安，所以我們需要重建全民辨識食安假訊息的全民教育，需要全面來啟動。民間的台灣事實查核中心，這個民間機構NGO，他們也具體的在2022年提出小心有毒的食安假訊息，他們提出了兩個樣態，食安假訊息的樣態一就是「舊聞重炒」，把過去發生的事來說成是今年新發的事件，然後它有照片、有圖片，引起全民的恐慌。另外一種樣態是「去脈絡化的再製」，加蔥加料然後去頭去尾，簡單來講就是重製了一個假消息。所以我們全民的食安教育、全民的打假怎麼來完備呢？院長，我們曾經在2019年修了9個法，不夠！至少我們針對今天這個主題食品安全衛生管理法第四十六條之一，針對散布食品安全謠言或不實訊息，只能夠罰臺幣100萬，今天這個案子台糖是賠了五千多萬……"],["陳院長建仁：五千萬。"],["吳委員思瑤：重修吧！這個部分應當可以做吧？即刻啟動。"],["陳院長建仁：好。"],["吳委員思瑤：我再一次說，給社會的一堂課，快速結案、責任歸屬、協助地方政府精進、食安打假要升級，還有全民的食安教育都要再強化。這是一個跨部會的事情，院長可不可以承諾，我們可以在1個月內，你有食安會報3個月開一次，食安會報就這個事件之後來召開一次擴大的、跨部會，針對我說的打假，全民食安錯假訊息辨識的教育端在教育部，然後法務部結合怎麼去查緝這些案子。然後回到我們協助地方政府來檢驗、優化，這些需要您跨部會1個月內提出一個好的方案，善用現有的食安會報來進行，可以嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：好，這是一個很好的建議，我們會這樣來照辦。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，謝謝。"],["陳院長建仁：謝謝委員的建議。"],["吳委員思瑤：時間有限，謝謝，辛苦了。"],["陳院長建仁：謝謝。"],["吳委員思瑤：來，水餃送給您。"],["主席：好，謝謝吳委員思瑤的質詢。","接下來我們請登記第7號徐委員巧芯。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":370,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-2","speakers":["韓國瑜","陳昭姿","李坤城","洪孟楷","洪申翰","廖偉翔","吳思瑤","徐巧芯","鍾佳濱","謝龍介","吳沛憶","王育敏","何欣純","李彥秀","王定宇","羅智強"],"page_start":277,"meetingDate":["2024-02-23"],"gazette_id":"1130401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130401_00009","1130401_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第2次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出「民進黨政府執政八年臺灣食安問題總檢討」專案報告並備質詢─ 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number是今天的專報我看到的新數字早上也在跟王美花部長在做進一步的確認。"},{"start":319.011,"end":337.224,"text":"就是臺堂是這個事件最大的受害者但是臺堂是國營事業啊他的損害就是全民買單啊高達財務損失不管有形無形的變動成本或是調動成本高達5253萬5253這關鍵數字美化部長沒有錯嘛"},{"start":342.458,"end":357.614,"text":"而臺堂在這個事件當中動員的人力高達741人次,包括臺堂自己的工作同仁,還包括這些帶送商。所以美化部長,臺堂的損失怎麼替他平反,誰能來賠啊?"},{"start":360.785,"end":383.452,"text":"目前為止我們趕快把這個事件釐清,然後確認臺堂的豬肉是沒有問題。我想目前的要務我們是先做這件事情。很遺憾沒有人能賠,全民買單。但好在是臺堂,國營事業,老字號,金的條。如果這樣一個事件謠言發生在任何一個民間企業,哇,三天就倒了啦。"},{"start":384.554,"end":398.653,"text":"但是我們有一件事情可以做我覺得我辦公室的幕僚非常的可愛他們都是年輕人他們跟我說老闆臺堂受傷這麼深國家又沒有辦法給他們平反五千多萬開什麼玩笑我們可以做一件事"},{"start":399.69,"end":426.883,"text":"我們可以請消費者就有最大的力量我們一起臺糖停起來臺糖吃起來臺糖的產品買起來剛剛中午我跟我助理去了一趟全聯我們買了臺糖的燕麥片辦公室大家下午下午查一下我們買了臺糖的手工水餃晚上半夜我回家都是半夜可以自己泡自己煮"},{"start":427.967,"end":455.321,"text":"我們買了砂糖我喜歡吃甜我助理特別給我買這麼一大包我不知道吃多久還有台糖很多的罐頭我這裡是鳳梨罐頭其實它有各類的罐頭我們要呼籲所有的消費者挺台糖挺國家的好品牌這是我今天在這裡拋出來的第一個訊號我們可以在這個事件當中獲得一個正向的事情"},{"start":456.314,"end":459.155,"text":"除了有形的損失,其實無形的損失更是難以計算。"},{"start":481.348,"end":509.022,"text":"我很少數可以同意柯文哲的說法可是他這幾天說的話我是同意的他說這就是實驗室污染嘛這簡單的判斷嘛然後呢他也說簡單的事簡單解決他有很多事情要做不要浪費時間在這種無聊的事就是不要再無敵無告無開花啦所以柯文哲主席講的話我也希望民眾黨的委員們要聽"},{"start":510.404,"end":534.808,"text":"我們希望政治上也要停損不要讓意識再空轉我們讓整個事件最起碼的讓我們的食安制度是如何的精進在國人面前被看到而作為政治工作者不要在這個事件上見縫擦針食安就是科學食安不要搞政治好下一頁回到專業問題我們的食安專家會議已經開完了"},{"start":539.429,"end":555.649,"text":"那養殖端沒問題徒仔端沒問題就是出在實驗室的檢測端有問題那您那天告訴我週二說大概兩週要結案可不可能更快好像事實釐清的"},{"start":557.145,"end":557.785,"text":"臺中市政府的責任怎麼來究責?"},{"start":577.437,"end":601.59,"text":"這個部分的話專家委員會應該對於實驗的步驟等等怎麼樣來做更好有一些看法另外一件事情也是大家蠻關心的就是他這個採到檢體到公布這個結果一共有18天的時間可是當他一檢出來有西布特羅的時候並沒有讓台堂有一個申請復驗的這樣的一個機制那所以呢才造成應該在"},{"start":603.041,"end":624.042,"text":"宣布以前應該要有一個復宴的機制可是這個機制並沒有進行就發布。謝謝院長的回覆所以說在事務上下一頁台唐事件教會臺灣的是至少我們中央政府幫地方政府一把在體制上更完備食安不分中央地方不分政黨"},{"start":625.063,"end":651.137,"text":"我們協助地方政府來檢視而且精進他的檢驗作業這個您上週﹐這週二答應我要來做協助各個地方政府也不要只針對臺中市政府也許其他縣市政府六都還是有能量的也許有一些地方政府他更需要專業的軟硬體的協助協助地方政府來精進檢驗的作業的SOP包括軟硬體第二改善資訊公開的流程就您剛講的"},{"start":652.478,"end":679.52,"text":"那我要再進一步說因為這一次他的個案是就是檢驗到非常非常極限值0.001002所以我們也應當在這個對外公開的這個流程裡頭我個人認為是應當要有個分流的機制就是說當一檢測那是大量的污染的時候大量的擴散是系統性的研判的時候趕快公佈但是如果是極微量的"},{"start":680.08,"end":680.24,"text":"我覺得兩條路"},{"start":695.982,"end":720.788,"text":"臺中市議會3月8號就要召開實案的專案會議就回到地方政府負起政治責任監督畢竟是在地方政府我個人對於邀請盧秀燕市長到立法院來備詢或報告我是個人持比較保留啦我認為還是基於地方自治但是另外一個部分也許監察院是一個可以協助釐清這整個事實很重要的一個調查機關"},{"start":722.348,"end":733.2,"text":"也許監委們聽到呼籲我沒有辦法指揮監委當然基於憤悸之間也許這會是一個協助進一步調查的必要的手段好下一頁"},{"start":734.366,"end":754.895,"text":"那這個馬英九任內跟蔡英文任內的食安大型事件我那天分享了7比27件在馬英九任內我們任內有兩件我們盡量做到零容忍但是呢再進步的這件事情是不容抹煞的下一頁"},{"start":755.735,"end":778.347,"text":"所以這幾年來建組織修法案增預算,我們8年投入92.5億來進行食安的提升,遠比馬英九在2016年把政權交到我們手上的時候是多了2.3倍。我呼籲朝野的立委繼續來監督,繼續來支持,做不好就給資源,做不好來修法。"},{"start":779.207,"end":805.74,"text":"而不是處處為難所以我要刻意再把這樣的資訊羅列出來最後一部分是我今天最在意的部分了下一頁實案在進步可是台灣的假訊息讓台灣大退步我很赫然的發現有一個北歐的專業權威的調查謠言獲重假訊息最嚴重的國家台灣連續10年是全球的冠軍"},{"start":807.685,"end":814.993,"text":"臺灣成為一個謠言貨眾世界No.1,這對我們來講何其不堪。下一頁。"},{"start":815.99,"end":839.001,"text":"而官方打假我這裡提出來的是食藥署在2015年成立一個食藥闢謠專區所以9年來有566件的假消息當中食品類有350件佔6成其他有醫療器材的假消息化妝品的假消息跟藥品的假消息非常的嚴重9年來有566件"},{"start":842.562,"end":868.667,"text":"6成是食安所以就我們需要重建全民的辨識食安假訊息的全民教育需要全面來啟動下一頁民間的臺灣事實查核中心這個民間機構NGO他們也具體的在2022年提出小心有毒的食安假訊息他們提出了兩個樣態食安假訊息的樣態一就是救蚊蟲草"},{"start":869.747,"end":898.448,"text":"把過去發生的事來說成是今年新發的事件然後它有照片有圖片然後就引起全民的恐慌另外一種樣態是去脈絡化的再製加蔥加料然後去頭去尾把簡單來講就是重製了一個假消息所以我們全民的食安教育全民的打假怎麼來完備呢我們來到我的最後倒數第二頁"},{"start":899.485,"end":924.96,"text":"院長我們曾經在2019年修了9個法不夠我們針對至少今天這個主題食品安全衛生管理法46條之一針對散佈食品安全謠言或不實訊期只能夠罰台幣100萬今天這個案子台堂是賠了5000多萬重修吧這個部分應當可以做吧即刻啟動然後最後一頁我再一次來說"},{"start":926.386,"end":933.756,"text":"給社會的一堂課快速結案責任歸屬協助地方政府精進食安打假要升級還有"},{"start":982.142,"end":982.995,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MANGA"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}