{"error":false,"id":["149140"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149140,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149140","日期":"2024-02-23","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"院會-11-1-2","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期第2次會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":2,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"院會","標題":"立法院第11屆第1會期第2次會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-02-23T16:35:30+08:00","結束時間":"2024-02-23T16:52:25+08:00","影片長度":"00:16:55","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/61d28f3f53a2feb6d6d270f8e00af137b347916f9bc661eaf8ba9b0039caa7a6caff4785d022cd645ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李彥秀","委員發言時間":"16:35:30 - 16:52:25","會議時間":"2024-02-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第2次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、2月23日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、2月27日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","gazette":{"lineno":944,"blocks":[["李委員彥秀：（16時35分）謝謝韓院長，我請陳院長。"],["主席：請陳院長備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：李委員午安，恭喜你當選。"],["李委員彥秀：謝謝院長。您是科學家，您也曾經擔任過衛生署署長，對於藥政、食安，我相信您也都非常清楚瞭解。這次整個台糖的肉品事件，我覺得造成的是民眾在第一時間聽到的時候是恐慌的，但是整件事情後續的延燒，會造成食安人員其實非常地委屈，最後……"],["陳院長建仁：我完全同意啦！所以這個檢驗本身就是要很謹慎，要有正確的時候才對外公布，才不會引起恐慌。"],["李委員彥秀：同意。好，我們等一下來看看相關的法規，我相信你對法規也非常清楚。我過去長期在衛環委員會，對於整個食安的政策、整個制定的過程，我也給予很多修法的意見，我也非常清楚；但是我相信我們大家都不樂意見到的是最後食安問題變成政治鬥爭的犧牲品，這個是我們大家都不樂意見到的。"],["陳院長建仁：當然，我也不樂意。"],["李委員彥秀：院長，我就要請問從21號的食安專家會議，我看到臺中食安處的同仁，從媒體報導上我有看到有人掉眼淚了，這樣的一個會議到底是食安專家會議，還是公審地方稽查人員的會議？"],["陳院長建仁：食安專家的會議，沒有公審的意思。"],["李委員彥秀：好，您是這麼說，因為您也不在現場，我相信這整個過程……"],["陳院長建仁：你也不在。"],["李委員彥秀：你同不同意我說一句話，你同不同意我們認為整個稽查人員在稽查的過程當中，幫民眾把關其實也非常辛苦，你同不同意我這樣的說法？"],["陳院長建仁：我們要謝謝他，他們也很辛苦，這個我同意。"],["李委員彥秀：我認為您是一個……過去我認識的陳院長，您是一個有溫度、非常溫暖的院長，您也是36萬公務人員的院長，如果臺中市的食安處人員21號真的有在食安諮詢委員會裡面掉了眼淚……"],["陳院長建仁：是不是有掉眼淚，我不知道。"],["李委員彥秀：您覺得身為36萬公務員的大院長，您應該要給我們這些同仁加加油、鼓勵鼓勵吧？"],["陳院長建仁：我也感到不捨。如果他真的掉眼淚、他受到委屈，我會不捨，但是我不是在現場，我沒有辦法講，那你說是不是……"],["李委員彥秀：我相信我們在臺上的韓院長一定會拍拍肩膀，說加油、我們一起努力，我相信您也應該會如此。"],["陳院長建仁：我平常不拍人家肩膀、不拍女性肩膀。"],["李委員彥秀：不管是拍肩膀、握手，我覺得您是36萬公務人員的大家長，基層的稽查人員……"],["陳院長建仁：如果我們要謝謝的是所有檢驗人員的努力，我會謝謝他……"],["李委員彥秀：院長，先讓我講完。"],["陳院長建仁：好。"],["李委員彥秀：我相信我們都給予他們最大的鼓勵，至於未來每一次事件之後，我覺得在食安法的修法，中央跟地方如何合作，我們都應該更明確，有一個更標準的SOP。院長，我相信你對法規都非常清楚，無論是食安法第五十二條也好，在整個稽查過程當中，就我的瞭解，第一時間公告檢查出來，不論是檢查出來的初驗、20次、21次、22次，根據法規都應該是第一時間公開對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：對！但是要檢驗很正確，這個很重要，以免造成恐慌，你剛才講的恐慌……"],["李委員彥秀：您認為它檢驗不正確，不管是西布特羅在地方有檢驗出來，不管它檢驗出來是多少，它如果是不得檢出，它就有公告的義務。我相信薛部長在現場，很清楚……"],["陳院長建仁：要確認那個檢出的數據是正確的，很重要啊！對不對？"],["李委員彥秀：0.002跟0.001都是不得檢出，都必須要公告，這是我看法規喔！"],["陳院長建仁：我剛才講的，你要檢驗一個樣品，如果是極微量的時候，那要確定那個極微量是否正確，就需要再去做同批的檢查，因為它所做出來的這個 range 差了很多嘛，所以它實驗的方法本身所測出來的值，同一塊豬肉測出來的值會有那麼大的變異，就需要了解說這個實驗的步驟或者實驗出來的結果是不是正確，正確是最重要。"],["李委員彥秀：好，院長，所以它做了22次嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：但是都不一樣，才奇怪嘛！"],["李委員彥秀：沒關係，後來它送到中央複驗還是有驗出，這個檢驗、這個申請複驗只有台糖可以，就是檢驗出它自己，它是業者，只有它自己可以申請複驗，這個流程我覺得我們都……"],["陳院長建仁：沒有，實驗室不可以這樣，我們做過實驗的，今天如果我自己在做實驗發現我實驗的結果，同一個樣本，實驗有十幾倍的差異，我會自己檢討實驗有沒有錯啊！"],["李委員彥秀：院長，沒關係，如果要這樣修正，未來我建議……"],["陳院長建仁：這是實驗的基本要件……"],["李委員彥秀：以後不要再叫地方，我們不要再叫地方做檢驗室了……"],["陳院長建仁：要啊！"],["李委員彥秀：過去我們長期希望地方把檢驗室做好……"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["李委員彥秀：我相信薛部長很清楚，所以我們才有前瞻預算在基層花了11億做檢驗室，我們給他們標準配備，希望他們來做。如果是這樣，我建議稽查人員不要這麼辛苦，地方不要那麼辛苦，全部都收回來中央來驗！"],["陳院長建仁：沒有這回事。"],["李委員彥秀：因為中央到地方，行政命令允許他們有14天的時間，最長14天的時間申請複驗，薛部長，我講得沒錯吧？這14天當中，我不是講這一次的事件，這14天當中，任何一個食安事件都有可能，如果是真的有問題，有可能流入消費者的肚子裡面，這都不是我們願意見到的。如果大家對於地方的檢驗室這麼不信任，稽查人員有這麼多的委屈，我覺得就乾脆收回來中央算了，這不是我願意見到的……"],["陳院長建仁：我們沒有……"],["李委員彥秀：院長，你聽我講完，我沒有要跟你吵架，我今天是就法論法……"],["陳院長建仁：我也沒有跟你吵，我只是即問即答嘛！剛才講的，即問即答。"],["李委員彥秀：我們希望每一次的討論讓食安後續的過程……接下來如果萬一再有食安的管理事件，我們可以更精進，中央地方權責我們一起把它處理得更好。"],["陳院長建仁：我們中央地方一起來努力……"],["李委員彥秀：這是我們的目標。院長，時間真的不多……"],["陳院長建仁：但是有一個先決條件，我講1分鐘就好，一下下就好。所有的實驗要公布以前，一定要確認實驗的步驟是正確的嘛！如果你實驗不正確，你怎麼公布呢？這是最重要的啊！"],["李委員彥秀：院長，所以你質疑，所以你認為它的實驗過程不正確就對了？"],["陳院長建仁：其實它自己也有質疑啊！因為它自己的檢驗差了十幾倍啊！它為什麼要驗22次？"],["李委員彥秀：沒關係，院長……"],["陳院長建仁：就是這樣嘛！你懂我的意思了？"],["李委員彥秀：院長，我覺得我們可以有更多討論的空間……"],["陳院長建仁：正確性最重要。"],["李委員彥秀：所以我說，因為西布特羅其實是非常少數的，他們也擔心實驗會有誤差，所以他們才會檢測這麼多次……"],["陳院長建仁：但是這麼多次有差異啊！"],["李委員彥秀：那台糖有申請，它就複驗到中央。我也要請教你，稽查人員其實以臺北市為例，3萬家的食品業者，我們稽查人員其實只有五十多位……"],["陳院長建仁：很辛苦，而且我們感謝他們。"],["李委員彥秀：辛不辛苦？"],["陳院長建仁：他們真的很認真。"],["李委員彥秀：人夠不夠？以臺北市為例，這還不包括市場這些，還有包括流動攤販等等，其實3萬的餐飲跟食品業者只有53個稽查人員，還有包括最近這幾年我們食安的源頭管理，包括我們開放萊豬、開放核食，有更多的專案，包括前一陣子進口的日本草莓等等，每天有這麼多專案在做，但是以臺北市來說我們只有53個人，人力是嚴重地不足，所以在過程當中我可以感受到臺中的稽查業者為什麼會在會議上掉眼淚，所以我今天其實另外一個重要的議題，我認為我們應該中央另外想辦法補人、給人。"],["陳院長建仁：所以不應該反對前瞻建設，我們有補了26億喔！"],["李委員彥秀：院長，國民黨沒有反對前瞻建設……"],["陳院長建仁：我們會繼續努力。"],["李委員彥秀：國民黨反對空頭支票，我們更反對……"],["陳院長建仁：我們會繼續努力。"],["李委員彥秀：所以院長，那我現在問你，你要不要再另外額外給人？各縣市你給錢、給人啊！"],["陳院長建仁：現在整個檢驗的過程應該怎麼樣來精進，我剛才已經答應前面的委員說我們會再來跟中央地方一起來檢討怎麼樣來精進這整個檢驗的過程，這個我們會來努力，然後了解現在的人力……"],["李委員彥秀：包括我提的啦，你就乾脆檢驗以後都直接送中央，不要地方……"],["陳院長建仁：這不是……"],["李委員彥秀：不然的話，你對地方有這麼多的問號、不信任……"],["陳院長建仁：這不是食安法的規定，你現在要做的話……"],["李委員彥秀：沒關係，薛部長在這邊……"],["陳院長建仁：這食安法的規定，不依法辦理……"],["李委員彥秀：院長，你現在辯才無礙，什麼都能夠講，你問薛部長有沒有辦法以後就乾脆都收回來……"],["陳院長建仁：不依法辦理可以嗎？"],["李委員彥秀：我也支持，我也支持地方不要再做實驗室……"],["陳院長建仁：立法委員說我們不要按食安法來做食安的管控，這個我覺得很奇怪，那為什麼……"],["李委員彥秀：院長、院長，我從來沒有說不要按照食安法，你不要……"],["陳院長建仁：你說都不要做了，你自己講的啊！"],["李委員彥秀：我說收回地方來做中央，不要在地方做檢驗室。"],["陳院長建仁：但是食安法不是這樣規定。"],["李委員彥秀：我說收回來，法當然能做調整啊！源頭管理……"],["陳院長建仁：你要修法嗎？"],["李委員彥秀：院長、院長，源頭管理沒做好，就會累死地方的基層。"],["陳院長建仁：所以地方一起來做源頭。"],["李委員彥秀：近八年來、近八年來食安的問題不斷，包括……"],["陳院長建仁：所以雲林縣做得很好啊！找到紅辣椒的問題。"],["李委員彥秀：院長、院長……韓院長，時間暫停，我如果一直講話，院長不聽我講話，我怎麼答詢得下去？時間先暫停！"],["陳院長建仁：我們是即問即答，專案報告是這樣。"],["主席：我想時間暫停。再一次跟院會報告、跟委員報告一下，今天是專案報告，也要請官員跟委員之間，還是一樣呼籲相互尊重……"],["陳院長建仁：好，我們相互尊重，即問即答。"],["主席：把問題講清楚，遵守相關質詢規定，好嗎？"],["李委員彥秀：好。"],["主席：請繼續。"],["李委員彥秀：謝謝韓院長。我平常也是個很溫和的人，陳院長。"],["陳院長建仁：我也是啊！我更是。"],["李委員彥秀：我今天跟你要人力、稽查人力，我相信這不是太困難的事情，給更多的稽查人力，我們把食安工作做得更好，我相信這點應該能具體承諾吧！"],["陳院長建仁：要人力以外，他的技術還要精進，然後儀器、設備要加強。"],["李委員彥秀：這沒關係，我們大家可以就專業面來談，我沒有反對啊、我沒有反對啊！所以這個我們是有共識的。我更認為我們過去都有在討論包括食品雲的部分、跨部會的食品雲……"],["陳院長建仁：對，這是好的方法。"],["李委員彥秀：我們有農產品、我們有生產履歷，但是有一塊我覺得我們可以做得更好，包括我們現在有區塊鏈，對於整個管理機制、資訊機制，從農產到餐桌上整個成品的過程，我們可能可以用一個QR Code看得更清楚，這個我覺得都是未來食品管理的方向。"],["陳院長建仁：履歷嘛！對，建立履歷制度。"],["李委員彥秀：我們努力朝那個方向來進行。"],["陳院長建仁：有，正在往這裡走。"],["李委員彥秀：我覺得這樣子的討論方式，你不要一聽到我質詢，我們兩個就一直講，我覺得這個質詢沒辦法讓彼此更進步。所以如果院長也同意給人，給基層同仁、36萬的公務人員更多的鼓勵，給我們這些稽查同仁更多的加油、打氣，給更多的溫暖，我覺得大家對於食安的進步，人民才有機會從我們的答詢，對於政府從中央到地方給予更多的肯定。臺灣是一個美食王國，怎麼樣讓食品的安全、讓國際看得到我們的管理是很嚴格的？所以我才會提出來說我們增加稽查人力、我們未來要怎麼樣精進食安的機制，我們可以進一步再探討，只要我們把SOP寫得更清楚，未來是不是15天之內所有的複驗都一定要送進來？我指的是所有的都要送進來喔！薛部長，你知道我在講什麼，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["李委員彥秀：你現在要求複驗15天都要算，那未來是不是都是15天？每一樣都是15天？"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有，15天是廠商可以要求，但是我們不一定要等到15天，要看風險高低。如果這個東西是風險高的，那我們不用等了……"],["李委員彥秀：好，15天對我一個媽媽來說、以媽媽的角色來說，我等不到15天……"],["陳院長建仁：對，所以……"],["李委員彥秀：因為任何一天流入到我小孩、我家人的肚子裡面，我都是會擔心的。"],["陳院長建仁：所以我們不會等到15天。"],["李委員彥秀：所以這就是我們討論嘛，3天是不是民眾可以接受的？"],["薛部長瑞元：看東西的風險。"],["李委員彥秀：所以我覺得這個都是政策面的討論。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["李委員彥秀：你要想清楚，再對外交代說明，好不好？"],["薛部長瑞元：好。"],["李委員彥秀：我覺得整起事件、我覺得食品安全還是從頭來說，它真的是一個科學問題、它是一個民生問題，所以怎麼樣把它管理得更好，再加上我們現在大數據做得也不錯……"],["陳院長建仁：我們正在利用這個數據。"],["李委員彥秀：再加上區塊鏈在資訊上的管理，從農產品的整體管理部分做一個更完整的QR Code給民眾，像我們雞蛋現在就有QR Code嘛？"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["李委員彥秀：但是我們更多的是餐桌上每一樣買回來吃的東西，因為現在超市也很多是煮熟的東西，你只要買回來，microwave加熱一下馬上就可以吃了，當我們民眾對於食安有疑義的時候，透過一個QR Code，我們馬上就可以刷出來看它的整個生產履歷，這是我們要的。"],["陳院長建仁：很好的建議。"],["李委員彥秀：院長，我們今天的專案報告是過去8年食安的檢討，過去8年食安的事件其實也不算少，包括過年期間，我們的白蘿蔔含農藥的事件，還有近期蝦味先蘇丹紅，我想蘇丹紅的事件雖然業者是在新北，但是發現在高雄，第一時間也就快速地下架，對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：是。所以我們食安是有進步啊！"],["李委員彥秀：無論是我們自己在野黨，我們都覺得下架很好啊！我們儘速地下架處理，中央也沒有任何質疑，我們也沒有講說要不要再多檢查看看。"],["陳院長建仁：沒有，不必要。"],["李委員彥秀：對啊！所以我才說不要兩套標準，我覺得我們在處理的過程當中，我們都把它當成這都是我們的事，不管中央的稽查人員、地方的稽查人員、中央的食藥署、地方的食安處……"],["陳院長建仁：衛生局。"],["李委員彥秀：我們都把它當作我們是同一個團隊在守護民眾的健康……"],["陳院長建仁：我們就是一家人，本來我們就是同一個團隊。"],["李委員彥秀：不要有太多的不信任。"],["陳院長建仁：我們沒有不信任。"],["李委員彥秀：就不會讓民眾覺得怎麼食安問題變成是一個政治事件。"],["陳院長建仁：我們現在中央跟地方一起合作來做食安，已經做了8年，食安五環做得很好，不像委員在這裡講的「這只是口號治國」，這是真真實實地踏實在做，我們也謝謝……"],["李委員彥秀：院長，我只能說食安五環……"],["陳院長建仁：我們謝謝各地方政府的努力。"],["李委員彥秀：院長，我只剩下41秒。食安五環過去我們都認為在源頭的管理破了好幾個洞，所以近期我也羅列出來有這麼多戴奧辛的雞蛋、芬普尼的雞蛋，還有包括最近蘇丹紅蝦味先的事件，我們如果做得更快速的話，說不定蝦味先會回收的更快，原來36萬包，我們只回收9萬包……"],["陳院長建仁：這就是因為大家努力去檢驗，才能夠很快檢驗出來。"],["李委員彥秀：我覺得層層面面我們該做的事情很多……"],["陳院長建仁：所以各地方政府很努力，你講啊！各地方政府很努力，所以才有這樣的成果。"],["李委員彥秀：院長，我只能說……"],["陳院長建仁：能夠提前發現……"],["李委員彥秀：民眾對於食安的管理……"],["陳院長建仁：很重要……"],["李委員彥秀：是沒有沒有信心的，我只能說沒有信心的，所以你食安五環破了好幾個洞之後，後續我們如何去補強，恐怕你得花更多的心思，而不是只有政治口號。"],["陳院長建仁：太多的假消息，才會沒有信心啦！"],["主席：謝謝李委員彥秀的質詢，也謝謝陳院長的備詢。","接下來我們請登記第14位王委員定宇質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":370,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-2","speakers":["韓國瑜","陳昭姿","李坤城","洪孟楷","洪申翰","廖偉翔","吳思瑤","徐巧芯","鍾佳濱","謝龍介","吳沛憶","王育敏","何欣純","李彥秀","王定宇","羅智強"],"page_start":277,"meetingDate":["2024-02-23"],"gazette_id":"1130401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130401_00009","1130401_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第2次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出「民進黨政府執政八年臺灣食安問題總檢討」專案報告並備質詢─ 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,恭喜你當選。議員長,您是科學家,您也曾經擔任過衛生署署長。您對於藥證、食安,我相信您也都非常清楚了解。這一次整個臺堂的肉品事件,我覺得造成的是,民眾在第一時間聽到的時候是恐慌的,但是整件事情後續的延燒,"},{"start":39.562,"end":60.075,"text":"我完全同意啦,所以這個檢驗本身就是要很謹慎,要有正確的時候才對外公開。我相信你對法規也非常清楚,我過去長期在衛黃委員會對於整個食安的政策整個過程制定的過程,我也給予很多修法的意見,我也非常清楚。"},{"start":60.575,"end":75.744,"text":"但是我相信我們大家都不樂意見到的是最後食安問題變成政治鬥爭的犧牲品這個是我們大家都不樂意見到的當然我也不樂意院長那我就要請問從21號的食安專家會議喔"},{"start":78.766,"end":80.147,"text":"施安專家的會議沒有公審的意思。"},{"start":96.966,"end":125.019,"text":"您是這麼說因為您也不在現場我相信這整個過程你同不同意我說一句話你同不同意我們認為整個稽查人員在稽查的過程當中其實幫民眾把關其實也非常辛苦我們要謝謝他他們也很辛苦我認為您是一個過去我認識的陳院長您是一個有溫度非常溫暖的院長你也是36萬公務人員的院長"},{"start":126.55,"end":134.85,"text":"如果臺中處的實案處人員21號真的有在實案諮詢委員會裡面,掉了眼淚﹖"},{"start":136.119,"end":158.507,"text":"我覺得身為36萬公務員的大院長您應該給我們這些同仁加加油鼓勵鼓勵吧我相信我們在臺上的韓院長一定會拍拍肩膀加油我們一起努力我相信你也應該會如此不管拍肩膀握手我覺得"},{"start":170.695,"end":189.309,"text":"我相信我們都給予他們最大鼓勵至於未來每一次事件之後我覺得在審法的修法中央跟地方如何合作我們都應該更明確有一個更標準的SOP好 院長我相信你對法規都非常清楚"},{"start":190.804,"end":204.809,"text":"無論食安法、食安法的52條也好在整個清查過程當中就我的了解第一時間公告檢查出來不論檢查出來的出院20次、21次、22次根據法規都應該是第一時間公開對不對"},{"start":211.804,"end":217.166,"text":"對,但是要檢驗很正確,這個很重要,以免造成恐慌,你剛才講的恐慌吧。要確認那個檢出的數據是正確的。"},{"start":230.987,"end":236.73,"text":"我剛才講的你要檢驗一個樣品如果是極微量的時候那要確定那個極微量是否正確呢就需要再去做同批的檢查"},{"start":250.896,"end":272.371,"text":"因為他所做出來的這個Range差了很多所以他的實驗的方法本身是所測出來的質同一塊豬肉測出來的質會有那麼大的變異就需要了解說這個實驗的步驟或者實驗出來的結果是不是正確所以他做了22次所以他做了22次後來他送到中央復驗他還是有驗出"},{"start":279.195,"end":295.82,"text":"這個檢驗這個申請復驗只有台堂可以就是檢驗出他自己他是業者他只有他自己可以申請復驗這個流程我覺得我們都可以實驗室不可以這樣我們做過實驗的我今天如果我自己在做實驗發現我實驗的結果同一個樣本實驗有十幾倍的差異我會"},{"start":301.042,"end":328.05,"text":"我跟你講沒關係如果要這樣修正未來我建議我們不要再叫地方做檢驗室了過去我們長期希望地方把檢驗室做好我相信薛部長很清楚所以我們才有全債預算在基層花了11億做檢驗室我們給他們標準配備希望他們來做如果是這樣我建議稽查人員不要這麼辛苦地方不要那麼辛苦"},{"start":328.51,"end":356.471,"text":"全部都收回來中央來驗。沒有這回事。因為中央到地方,我們允許有,行政命令允許他們有14天的時間,最長14天的時間申請復驗。薛部長我講的沒錯吧?是。這14天當中,任何,我不是講這一次的事件。這14天當中,都有任何一個食安事件,都有可能,如果是真的有問題,有可能流入消費者的肚子裡面,這都不是我們願意見到的。"},{"start":358.246,"end":374.406,"text":"如果大家對於地方的檢驗室這麼不信任,警察人員有這麼多的委屈,我覺得應該是收回來中央算了,這不是我意見到。好,院長你聽我講完,你聽我講,我沒有要跟你吵架,我今天是做法論法。"},{"start":376.708,"end":395.117,"text":"我們希望每一次的討論讓食安後續的過程接下來如果萬一再有食安的管理事件我們可以更精進中央地方全責我們一起把它處理得更好這是我們的目標 院長時間真的不多但是有一個先決條件我講一分鐘就好一下下就好"},{"start":395.837,"end":415.473,"text":"所有的實驗要公佈以前一定要確認實驗的步驟是正確的嘛那如果你實驗不正確你怎麼公佈呢?所以你認為他的實驗的過程不正確就對了?其實他自己也有質疑啊因為他自己的檢驗差了十幾倍啊那他為什麼要驗22次?"},{"start":417.535,"end":432.468,"text":"沒關係,院長,院長,接下來的過程我覺得我們可以更多討論的空間,所以我說如果,就是他因為希伯特羅其實是非常少數的,他們也擔心實驗會有誤差,所以他們才會檢測這麼多次。"},{"start":435.09,"end":436.332,"text":"但是這麼多怎麼發言?而且我們感謝他們"},{"start":450.709,"end":471.374,"text":"辛苦辛苦,人夠不夠以台北市為例喔,這還不包括市場這些還有包括流動攤販等等,其實3萬的餐飲跟食品業者只有53個稽查人員,還有包括我們最近這幾年我們食安的源頭管理,包括我們開放萊豬,開放和食,"},{"start":474.255,"end":500.341,"text":"有更多的專案包括前一陣子進口的日本草莓等等每天有這麼多的專案在做但是我們以台北市來說我們只有53個人力是嚴重的不足所以在過程當中我可以感受到臺中的稽查業者為什麼會在會議上掉眼淚所以我今天其實另外一個重要議題我認為我們應該中央另外想辦法補人給人"},{"start":501.161,"end":506.265,"text":"所以不應該反對前瞻建設,我們有補了26億喔!我們會繼續努力!我們會繼續努力!所以,院長,那我現在問你,你要不要再另外額外給人?"},{"start":516.132,"end":545.054,"text":"各縣市你給錢給人啊現在整個的檢驗的這個過程應該怎麼樣來精進我剛才已經答應前面的委員說我們會再來跟中央地方一起來檢討怎麼樣來精進這整個檢驗的過程這個我們會來努力然後瞭解現在的人力包括我提的啦你就乾脆檢驗以後都直接送中央不要地方不然的話你對地方有這麼多的問號不信任這不是食安法的規定"},{"start":546.195,"end":547.355,"text":"但是食安法不是這樣規定啊。"},{"start":574.65,"end":601.766,"text":"呃﹗"},{"start":604.022,"end":632.859,"text":"我們是急問急答啦。專案報告時間。再一次跟院會報告跟委員報告一下今天是專案報告也要請官員跟委員之間能夠還是一樣暫時呼籲相互尊重。好啦我們相互尊重急問急答。院長謝謝韓院長我平常也是個很溫和的人陳院長我今天除了要跟你要人力稽查人力"},{"start":634.372,"end":642.929,"text":"相信這不是太困難的事情。給更多的稽查人力我們把食安工作做得更好。我相信這點應該能具體承諾吧。"},{"start":643.951,"end":665.759,"text":"對﹖"},{"start":666.299,"end":693.197,"text":"我們有農產品我們有生產履歷但是有一塊我覺得我們可以做得更好包括我們現在有區塊鏈對於整個管理的機制資訊機制從農產到餐桌上那整個成品的過程中我們有可能用一個QR code可以看得更清楚這個都是未來我覺得食品管理的方向"},{"start":695.505,"end":718.574,"text":"我們努力朝那個方向來進行。我覺得這樣子的討論方式你不要一聽到我質詢就我們兩個一直我覺得這個質詢是沒有辦法讓彼此更進步所以如果院長也同意給人給基層同仁36萬的公務人員更多的鼓勵給我們這些稽查同仁更多的加油打氣給更多的溫暖"},{"start":720.422,"end":746.981,"text":"我覺得大家對於食安的進步人民才有機會對於政府我們的答詢對於政府從中央到地方給予更多的肯定臺灣是一個美食王國怎麼樣讓食品的安全讓國際看得到我們管理是很嚴格的所以我才會提出來說稽查人力我們增加我們未來要怎麼樣精進我們食安的機制我們可以進一步再探討只要我們把SOP寫得更清楚"},{"start":748.557,"end":775.406,"text":"15天之內未來是不是都15天之內所有的復驗都一定要送進來我指的是所有的都要送進來喔那個薛部長你知道我在講什麼對不對你現在是要求復驗15天都要送那未來是不是15都是15天每一樣都是15天15天是那廠商可以要求但是我們不一定要等到15天要看風險高低"},{"start":777.338,"end":799.252,"text":"如果這個東西是風險高的。好那我15天我對我一個媽媽來說媽媽的角色來說我等不到15天因為任何一天流入到我小孩我家人的肚子裡面我都是會擔心的所以這個就是我們討論啦三天是不是民眾可以接受的"},{"start":800.613,"end":824.351,"text":"所以我覺得這個不是政策面的討論你要想清楚再對外交代說明好不好那所以我覺得整體事件我覺得食品安全我還是從頭來說它真的是一個科學問題它是一個民生問題所以怎麼樣把它管理得更好那我們再加上我們過去我們現在大數據"},{"start":825.697,"end":825.937,"text":"我們正在利用這個時間"},{"start":850.902,"end":879.417,"text":"怎麼樣當我們對於民眾的有對食安的疑義我們有疑義的時候透過一個QR Code我們馬上就可以刷出看大家整個生產履歷就是我們要的。院長我們今天專案報告是過去8年的食安的檢討其實過去8年食安的事件其實也不算少包括過年期間我們的這個蘿蔔我們的白蘿蔔含農藥的事件還有近期"},{"start":880.317,"end":903.716,"text":"稍為先蘇丹鴻我講了蘇丹鴻的事件雖然業者是在新北但是發現在高雄第一時間也就快速的下架那無論是在野黨無論是在野我們自己在野黨我們都覺得下架很好啊我們盡速的下架處理那我們中央也沒有任何機遇我們也沒有講說要不要再多檢查看看"},{"start":905.233,"end":934.185,"text":"沒有,不必要所以我才說不要兩套標準我覺得我們在處理的過程當中我們都把它當成這都是我們不管中央的稽查人員我們地方的稽查人員中央的食藥署我們地方的食安處我們都把它當成我們是同一個團隊在守護民眾的健康不要有太多的不信任我們沒有不信任就不會讓民眾覺得說怎麼食安問題變成是一個政治事件"},{"start":934.625,"end":951.679,"text":"我們現在中央跟地方一起合作來做食安已經做了8年食安午飯做得很好不像委員在這裡講的這只是口號治國這是真正實時的踏實在做我們也謝謝我們也謝謝各地方政府的努力"},{"start":952.239,"end":954.219,"text":"這就是因為我們大家努力去檢驗我覺得層層面面"},{"start":979.804,"end":983.585,"text":"委員長我只能說齁,民眾對於食安的管理是沒有信心的。我只能說沒有信心的。所以你食安委員破了好幾個動作"},{"start":1006.909,"end":1015.188,"text":"好,謝謝李委員彥秀的質詢,也謝謝陳院長的備詢。接下來我們請登記第14位王委員定語。"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}