{"error":false,"id":["149145"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149145,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149145","日期":"2024-02-27","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"院會-11-1-2","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期第2次會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":2,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"院會","標題":"立法院第11屆第1會期第2次會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-02-27T09:49:05+08:00","結束時間":"2024-02-27T10:19:48+08:00","影片長度":"00:30:43","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ee9543ba39e96810942880aa20aaaeae4c3dd4484df4233ff8ba9b0039caa7a62c7d51a1cd78116b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"09:49:05 - 10:19:48","會議時間":"2024-02-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第2次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、2月23日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、2月27日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","gazette":{"lineno":257,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（9時49分）請院長。"],["主席：麻煩請陳院長備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：黃委員早，恭喜你擔任立委。"],["黃委員珊珊：謝謝院長。今天是我第一次在立法院質詢，我想問一下院長，人民的生命財產大概是你最重要的任務了吧？"],["陳院長建仁：是！"],["黃委員珊珊：人民的生命財產安全包括前幾天大家爭執得非常多的食品安全，當然也有財產上的安全。"],["陳院長建仁：是！"],["黃委員珊珊：院長，您也當過副總統，現在是行政院長，您覺得這8年來臺灣是不是已經成為詐騙之島？"],["陳院長建仁：確實，全世界的詐騙趨勢都有在增加，特別是在COVID-19期間，如果根據國際相關組織的發布，在已開發國家當中都受到詐騙的困擾，臺灣也不例外。"],["黃委員珊珊：臺灣的狀況應該是更嚴重，也就是說我們已經……"],["陳院長建仁：沒有，如果最嚴重的情形是新加坡。"],["黃委員珊珊：新加坡？好，當然我們不要跟它比差啦！但是所有的臺灣人應該都接過詐騙電話，您接過嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我沒有，因為我比較忙，很少接電話。"],["黃委員珊珊：大概只要是正常人都有接過詐騙，或者是相關的訊息，或者是自己的親朋好友大概都有詐騙的經驗。"],["陳院長建仁：是，我的親朋好友就有。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以詐騙在臺灣，今天部長在旁邊，臺灣的詐騙狀況，法務部你覺得滿意嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：我們還有努力的空間。"],["黃委員珊珊：原因是什麼？為什麼這麼多，然後你還有努力的空間？"],["蔡部長清祥：因為每一次都有新興的詐騙手法，我們一定要針對他們新興的手法來因應。"],["黃委員珊珊：也就是說詐騙的手法太新了，新到我們跟不上是嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：等我們發現的時候，我們就要擬具一個具體的作法來因應。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以部長，我想臺灣是詐騙之島，這個名字並不好聽。第二個，詐騙的猖獗已經成為百姓的痛點，尤其是剛剛過去的總統大選，其實每一個陣營，包括更多相關的人，包括立法院都一樣非常重視這件事情，因為這是剛剛講的人民的財產安全，人民有免於恐懼的自由，所以詐騙猖獗不應該成為臺灣政府的代名詞。","詐騙的數量，院長可以看一下這個數字，這數字非常的驚人。其實在105年到現在，就是蔡英文總統上任之後，其實在8年期間，8年的成長率從原來大概每一年是二萬三千多件，一直到112年大概是3萬7,000件。它的數量不斷地飆升，然後金額從幾十億，三十、四十億，到五十、六十億，現在已經到88億。所以院長，這個數字尤其是這3年，不知道為什麼這3年特別的嚴重。"],["陳院長建仁：所以委員，我剛才才跟你講說，如果按照國際的狀況來看，全世界都是這個趨勢……"],["黃委員珊珊：往上的趨勢。"],["陳院長建仁：那我們的上升趨勢大概是增加60%，那其他國家是有增加，但是我要跟委員說明的是，詐騙的金額確實是有增加，但是我們在打詐的努力當中，我們追回來的這一些金額，還有在銀行攔櫃的金額，大概有一百……"],["黃委員珊珊：這是因為黑數增加，還是因為你抓到的比較多？"],["陳院長建仁：我們抓到的多以外，另外我們也因為抓到以後，就有一些詐騙的金額有拿進來……"],["黃委員珊珊：我相信你因為有打詐，所以抓到的比較多……"],["陳院長建仁：然後再加上銀行櫃檯的阻詐，我們阻詐的情形大概有一百二十幾億。"],["黃委員珊珊：我相信大家都非常努力，但是現在的問題是你看到地檢署，昨天我們開過記者會，我想部長大概也看到了，就是電信詐欺3年之內成長了360%，也就是說檢察署的人力負擔真的是相當重。第二個，它的數量從3萬4,000件漲到16萬件，這個比例是非正常的狀況，所以就所謂的電信詐欺，目前大概是臺灣最大宗的一塊對吧？蔡部長。"],["蔡部長清祥：謝謝委員的關心，檢察官助理去年行政院也支持我們有100名的檢察官助理來幫忙打詐，而且今年又答應給我們150名，所以對檢察官打詐的效率來講，一定會提升的。"],["黃委員珊珊：檢察官助理在民國88年其實就有提案了，但是當時只通過了法官助理還有檢察事務官，那二十多年來檢察官助理其實在檢改，包括所謂的檢改團體，他們一直都在主張。現在不管是打詐也好，或者是其他的刑事偵查、偵查犯罪也好，其實相對檢察官的壓力是非常大的，所以檢察官助理目前為止入法了沒？"],["蔡部長清祥：還沒有訂定在法院組織法，不過我們先能夠因應現在的需要……"],["黃委員珊珊：為什麼你要擺這麼久呢？我剛剛講已經從88年到現在。"],["蔡部長清祥：我們上個會期已經有提出來修正的法院組織法草案，可惜沒有通過，所以我想這個會期如果委員支持的話，我們希望儘快能夠通過為法制化的檢察官助理。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以院長……"],["陳院長建仁：目前我們是行政上先來加強他們。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以院長，明年114年還會繼續給他們預算嗎？現在100個，還要再給他們150個？"],["陳院長建仁：對，250個。"],["黃委員珊珊：大概是什麼時候要入法？你什麼時候要送到立法院來？"],["陳院長建仁：入法就像剛才我們部長講的，我們也曾經有過這樣的努力，我們會研擬以後，來看看這樣的一個合適性，當然需要我們來開相關的學者專家研議……"],["黃委員珊珊：院長，您的看守時間到520，您能不能在您任期內把這個案子送到立法院來？"],["陳院長建仁：可以。"],["黃委員珊珊：應該可以吧？都會銜那麼久了。"],["蔡部長清祥：是，我們馬上提出來，希望委員能夠大力支持。"],["黃委員珊珊：我們會支持，而且我們希望你們儘快送進來，能夠在院長卸任的時候，留下這個最重要的一個任務。"],["蔡部長清祥：不過跟委員說明，因為法院組織法是司法院所主管的法規，那會受到司法院的耽擱，不過委員提案了，當然我們儘快配合來支持。"],["黃委員珊珊：如果它是重要的，就不應該受到耽擱，如果司法院要耽擱，就請司法院快一點表示意見。"],["陳院長建仁：對，當然！但是……"],["黃委員珊珊：而不是我們把責任推給司法院，好嗎？部長，這是你的責任啦。"],["陳院長建仁：我想五院都要互相尊重啦。"],["黃委員珊珊：是啊！"],["陳院長建仁：五院都要互相尊重，所以司法院如果有更多的……"],["黃委員珊珊：如果要做就不會有人耽擱嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：對，所以我們要好好跟它溝通，瞭解他們如果要耽擱的理由在哪裡。"],["黃委員珊珊：如果這個案子之前已經編了預算，也給了100個，表示它是重要的。"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：接下來你又要再給150個，表示它非常的重要。"],["陳院長建仁：所以我想……"],["黃委員珊珊：但是我們現在還在說要跟司法院溝通，那行政院的立場呢？"],["陳院長建仁：事情的解決有兩個，一個就是立法，另外一個叫做從行政的角度嘛，行政院的角度，我們就先讓它充實它的人力……"],["黃委員珊珊：我需要的就是時間啦，我想大家都可以爭議，現在就是時間的問題。"],["陳院長建仁：要立法，立法需要司法院、行政院，還要有司法院，有三個院要一起來努力啦。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以我才說嘛，假設您在520任內，是不是完成這件事是您的一個任務嘛，好嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我當然樂觀其成。"],["黃委員珊珊：院長可以承諾盡力在520之前……"],["陳院長建仁：我盡力來推動，我盡力！"],["黃委員珊珊：好！因為這個案子看起來沒有爭議，而且行政院也樂觀其成，預算也有了，所以不要再說程序的問題，好嗎？這是第一個問題，所以我希望打詐不會只有一個打詐辦公室，打詐是全民一起，第二個，要給它武器、要給它人力，好嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：好，我們會。委員，打詐不是只有打詐辦公室，打詐辦公室是coordinate，內政部、法務部、通傳會、金管會統統在裡面……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以我要說的是，人民在看你的決心，人民在看你的作法。"],["陳院長建仁：我們很有決心。"],["黃委員珊珊：第二個，要給它充足的人力跟設備，它才能夠讓臺灣脫離所謂詐騙之島的惡名，好嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我們有決心。"],["黃委員珊珊：院長，我們也希望你在520之前完成這件事。","好，下一個問題是稅制改革，我想院長您也在行政院非常久……"],["陳院長建仁：沒有很久，才一年。"],["黃委員珊珊：針對整個財政狀況、臺灣的財政狀況，您覺得狀況如何？"],["陳院長建仁：我覺得臺灣從COVID-19開始以後，再加上全世界供應鏈的改變，臺灣的經濟成長在這幾年確實是比以往來說來得好很多，而且歲入歲出盈餘，委員可能也知道從2017年開始就是正的，然後最近幾年都到3,000億……"],["黃委員珊珊：目前的財政狀況是相當不錯，因為出口也很好，然後經濟發展也不錯，但是臺灣針對所謂的稅制改革，其實從蔡政府上任之後，一直提出有一些稅務需要改，我這邊列出來的就是長期以來大家在討論的，叫做娛樂稅、貨物稅、印花稅。我還記得很清楚，蘇貞昌院長的時候，在2019年大力說要廢除印花稅，我當時代表臺北市政府來立法院跟相關的單位陳情，因為印花稅是重要的地方稅，如果要取消，不是不可以，而且它也是一個比較落後的稅制，但是中央在稅制改革上面，針對娛樂稅、貨物稅還有印花稅這種已經不合時宜的稅制，它的改革一直有提出來，但是到現在為止沒有看到結果，8年了，8年的狀況是怎樣，你要不要告訴我一下？"],["陳院長建仁：好，我們請部長說明一下。"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員說明一下，印花稅的部分，大概一年收取的是170億，是地方政府非常重要的稅源，這個部分我們也邀請地方政府來開過會……"],["黃委員珊珊：當時為什麼說要廢掉呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：他們都認為這個部分是他們很重要的稅源，所以他們不贊成廢除，我想這個部分涉及到財政……"],["黃委員珊珊：地方政府不是不贊成，地方政府是需要有替代財源。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，要有替代財源，雖然是有替代財源，但是對他們來說，這個還是財政自主很重要的……"],["黃委員珊珊：是一筆大錢。"],["莊部長翠雲：這是因為地方稅，這是地方自主的……"],["黃委員珊珊：為什麼蘇院長在還沒有經過審慎思考的時候就說要廢呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：我想，另外委員提到的就是說……"],["黃委員珊珊：你要回答我的問題啊！你們要廢的理由是什麼？因為它是一個不合時宜的稅制，對吧？"],["莊部長翠雲：當然，它有一定的時間，但目前來說還是地方很重要的一個稅源。"],["黃委員珊珊：因為它是1934年（民國23年）時候定的法。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：它是一個非常落後的稅制。第二個娛樂稅的部分，以前它是一種奢侈、一種高消費，但是現在的娛樂稅已經是電影、演唱會、球賽，它已經是人民基本的日常生活，它沒有什麼特別的高消費。第三個是貨物稅，貨物稅是嚴重地違反所謂租稅的中立性，不是嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以貨物稅這也是非常非常落伍的。"],["莊部長翠雲：娛樂稅的部分，當然因為隨著整個經濟的發展情況，娛樂的項目是不是帶有所謂的奢侈性質已經有所不同……"],["黃委員珊珊：是的。"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分，它的稅的項目以及它的稅率事實上是可以做檢討的。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，部長，我沒有時間給你講太多，我的意思是，這三個要檢討，檢討了8年檢討出了什麼東西來？有沒有？沒有。"],["莊部長翠雲：娛樂稅的部分，事實上我們已經做過檢討，貨物稅的部分，事實上現在是引導消費者朝一個方向……"],["黃委員珊珊：部長，我必須打斷你……"],["莊部長翠雲：尤其是節能的部分有所謂貨物稅的減徵。"],["黃委員珊珊：院長，我今天要問的是，8年部分的癥結在於，我們從來沒有好好檢討過剛剛講的這些稅，如果要取消，它的替代財源是在哪裡？你們有想過替代財源，有找到替代財源了嗎？還是繼續在研議中？還是之後說要廢，但是反正沒有替代財源，我們就隨便說說就好。"],["陳院長建仁：我想，任何財稅的改革，中央、地方都需要一起來研議，然後各界也希望……"],["黃委員珊珊：我同意，所以當時在廢印花稅的時候，沒有跟地方政府討論就直接說要廢除，所以我們當時臺北市政府才要帶著人到立法院、到行政院來陳情，也就是說，這件事情是重要的，稅制改革是重要的……"],["陳院長建仁：所以稅制改革需要時間。"],["黃委員珊珊：要跟地方政府溝通，要幫它找到替代財源。"],["陳院長建仁：是，我同意。"],["黃委員珊珊：這些不合時宜的稅，應該改、應該要檢討，但是需要溝通跟具體的作為。院長，這個癥結就是，執政8年檢討的結果目前還沒看到。第二個，你可不可以給我一個具體調整的方向？還有影響程度跟調整的角度？"],["陳院長建仁：我覺得你這樣講是一竿子打到底，我沒有辦法同意，所以在這8年來，我們有很多稅制的改革。"],["黃委員珊珊：是啊！但這三個稅沒有改啊！"],["陳院長建仁：不是像你講的，一竿子打到底，我覺得這樣子太武斷了。"],["黃委員珊珊：這三個稅是不是要找替代財源，部長，我今天的要求就是，既然討論這麼久，檢討的方向給我一個時間表。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，跟委員報告，這個部分我們都有做檢討，就如同委員說要尊重地方政府的意見，地方政府的意見是非常地分歧，縱使找替代財源，它也認為這個破壞了它的財政自主，因為它是地方稅，就是要讓它有自主權。"],["黃委員珊珊：我明白，所以我們在幫你找替代財源。接下去我要跟你說的是，10年前蔡總統在他的十年政綱說要建立綠色的稅制，2011年他其實就提出了所謂的綠色稅制。","剛剛講到貨物稅，其實它嚴重地違反了所謂的租稅中立，還有它有邏輯的問題。為什麼？因為如果它是「電視」，它就是有特殊的貨物稅；如果它是「顯示器」，它屬於電腦、IC產品，它就免貨物稅，這是一個很奇怪的現象。也就是說，這些綠色的稅制，現在2024了，綠色稅制要在2026歐盟要進行相關的碳稅之前，我們現在就必須要準備，兩位同意嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：是，有在準備。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。委員，這部分今年開始，環境部的部分，已經依照氣變法開始在徵收「碳費」。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以現在的氣候變遷法是碳費先行，碳稅再慢慢過渡？"],["莊部長翠雲：碳費先行，對。"],["黃委員珊珊：但是事實上在歐盟，大概2026就到了，現在已經2024了，然後碳費的部分，它其實並不是所謂的大家都有，它可能是比較特殊的大企業；第二個，它不是全民；第三個最重要的是，它可能沒有辦法接軌國際，是嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：碳費的部分，我覺得跟這個部分……氣變法的規定，其實它是專款專用，跟碳稅是不同的。"],["黃委員珊珊：沒錯。"],["莊部長翠雲：專款專用是要達到減碳的目的，所以我們是碳費先行。至於碳稅未來怎麼樣接軌碳費，當然我覺得，等到碳費實施一段時間以後，也許可以再做一個研議。"],["黃委員珊珊：沒錯，也就是過程是一個，院長，但是我要說的是臺灣政府必須針對碳稅開始做因應了，因為它將會衝擊產業的出口，最重要的是我們透過碳費大概很難引導人民在生活上面做一些改變，但是如果碳稅，全民都必須要配合的話，這個可能會是將來臺灣可以面對氣候變遷還有所謂的產業轉型才能夠一次到位，也就是碳費先行、碳稅過渡我沒有意見，但是我們必須要及早因應……"],["陳院長建仁：現在……"],["黃委員珊珊：也就是綠色稅制包括剛剛的貨物稅都可以夾帶在碳稅檢討的部分一起來檢討，你同意嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我們會來就委員的建議做相關的研議啦！但是目前確實是從碳費先行這個方式來做，我們環境部也……"],["黃委員珊珊：院長，我們也只有2年的時間了，這個時間不可能再讓大家慢慢研議，所以我的意思是剛剛講的替代財源，碳稅會是你替代財源考慮的對象之一……"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["黃委員珊珊：這個方式現在就必須要痛定思痛，有時候比較先進的立法會造成一時的痛苦，但是它可以引領人民生活習慣的改變。我必須講一個，就像臺北市，我們以前訂了一個垃圾費隨袋徵收，它剛開始會非常痛苦，但是它可以引領人民生活的改變。同樣的，節能減碳也一樣如此，如果我們的碳稅盡早讓人民知道他的生活必須要改變，節能減碳成為國家未來生活成本上面的一部分，這些事情是可以引領他的生活習慣改變，3位同意嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：碳稅可以改變人民對於節能減碳上面的努力，確實有這樣的一個力量……"],["黃委員珊珊：沒錯！"],["陳院長建仁：但是節能減碳只靠碳稅可能還不夠啦！怎麼樣來加強有關於節能減碳的教育，還有有關於其他的配套，都很重要……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以我現在給你二個建議：第一個、反正我們替代財源要找，碳稅是你可以找的替代財源其中之一；第二個、碳稅即將是面對國際的接軌，同時可以改變人民的生活，它必須是我們接下來很重要的一個規劃目標，這也是我相信臺灣身為國際社會的一分子必須要走的路。院長，這是我覺得在您的看守期間可以把這個方向明確的指出來……"],["陳院長建仁：好，謝謝你的建議。"],["黃委員珊珊：還有我們環境部，這也是一個非常重要的任務，部長，要不要講一下？"],["陳院長建仁：部長。"],["薛部長富盛：非常謝謝黃委員的建議，事實上，我們和財政部莊部長這邊都有保持密切的聯繫，就如同剛剛黃委員所提到的，碳費先行，接著就碳稅，當然在碳費的實施過程當中對產業也會造成很大的影響，我們也跟社會來做密集的溝通，希望能夠很順利地把……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以我說其實要做都要先溝通，這是一個很重要的過程，重點是政治的核心真的是執行力啦！在這邊要跟院長抱怨一下，我們臺北市在2022年6月份其實就把淨零排放的管理自治條例送到行政院，等於是在二年多前我們就送過來，光在行政院核定的過程大概就1年半，這個裡面有非常多所謂淨零碳排的路徑，包括可能將來在臺北市的旅館，它就不可以再放所謂一次性的用品，類似這樣的東西是需要跟民間溝通的，也就是一個法律的推展必須要事先而且要提早跟企業、跟市民來做溝通，但是一個法案躺在行政院1年半才核定，有很多要跟地方溝通的事就會耽誤到。院長，所以我不知道為什麼一個法案要核定個1年半？"],["陳院長建仁：因為你已經離開臺北市政府，我想我們請部長來說明為什麼我們會需要一段時間來跟地方做溝通。"],["薛部長富盛：是，我想非常謝謝黃委員在擔任臺北市副市長的時候在2022年7月5日就把臺北市的淨零排放送到院來……"],["黃委員珊珊：因為我們的市議會非常認真，很快就通過了。"],["薛部長富盛：但是因為我們的氣候變遷因應法事實上是去年2月15日才通過，氣候變遷法通過之後，還有12個子法，地方的自治條例也必須在子法和碳盤查、碳費等等相關先公告之後才能夠去審，所以這一點可能要請委員……"],["黃委員珊珊：我要回到的是說，像這種淨零碳排的事情，我們大概很早就已經知道國際趨勢的方式，連一個地方政府都跑得這麼快，我的意思是說，尤其是剛剛升格的環境部，將來應該是中央跑得要比地方快一點。"],["薛部長富盛：對。"],["黃委員珊珊：等你的母法出來、子法出來，地方都等不及了，所以我的意思是說，今天既然環境部已經升格，它就要變成行政院裡面淨零碳排的領頭羊，它要帶著國家朝向這個方向更高的位階，甚至可能要院長來做領導，整個行政院要一起配合。當然，氣候變遷法要透過立法院，所以我相信立法院也非常配合有關這個部分的轉型。"],["陳院長建仁：委員你講到重點了。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以這三樣都需要大家的幫忙，我的意思是，將來希望的是院長下來帶領整個國家走向淨零碳排。"],["陳院長建仁：我一定努力來這樣做，至少在這幾個月內，但是很重要的，我想委員你講到一個重點，我們希望未來在淨零碳排相關的立法過程，能夠得到朝野黨團的支持，讓這個立法能夠更順利、更快，謝謝。"],["黃委員珊珊：好的，院長，我覺得這個很重要。接下來還有一個小問題，但這個問題我覺得也是地方政府很在乎的，即財劃法，蔡總統也說過財劃法要修正，也說了10年，這8年的執政有沒有送過財劃法的修正案到立法院？"],["陳院長建仁：基本上我想財劃法的修正不只是蔡總統的這一段時間……"],["黃委員珊珊：是所有的行政院長都說過要修的，對吧？"],["陳院長建仁：而且是歷任的總統都有提到財劃法。"],["黃委員珊珊：那為什麼都不做呢？"],["陳院長建仁：我想這個不做……"],["黃委員珊珊：又是地方有意見？"],["陳院長建仁：不是，委員，你當過副市長，你很清楚，這個需要各縣市，比如說六都……"],["黃委員珊珊：明白了，我們都明白，但是就是有沒有人要做？第一個，財劃法現在的問題我想院長也很清楚……"],["陳院長建仁：當然，委員，我還沒有講完，我可以講一下嗎？"],["黃委員珊珊：我的時間只剩7分鐘，我還有一個題目。"],["陳院長建仁：我們認為財劃法是很重要，是不是讓部長簡單講1分鐘？"],["黃委員珊珊：部長，很簡單，財劃法的問題是分配不均、發展失衡、人均差異很大，像臺北大概是兩萬四，新北的人大概只分到一萬二，更嚴重的是像新竹縣，只分到九千多，最重要的是中央掌握了這個錢跟權，然後地方低頭，所以它就變成一個魔戒，到現在為止，沒有一個中央的官員或中央的首長願意下放這個權力，你同意嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，財劃法雖然沒有修，但是中央透過中央統籌分配稅款跟一般性的補助款，對地方的財政大力挹注，加上地方政府的努力，讓財政狀態已經有所改善。"],["黃委員珊珊：我只要問一個簡單的問題，要不要修？"],["莊部長翠雲：至於財劃法的修正，院長已經指示要徵詢各界的意見，凝聚共識，所以財政部也擬具了六項的修法原則，第一個就是提升財政自主，第二個是調劑財政盈虛，第三個是劃一分配基礎，以及精進分配機制，然後保障地方財源以及既有的財源不減少，在這六個原則之下，有關分配的指標也已經請各地方政府提出意見，不過目前各地方政府提出來的意見都非常的分歧，差距很大……"],["陳院長建仁：分岐。"],["黃委員珊珊：當然，因為你要分錢給它……"],["莊部長翠雲：所以這部分我們還是會再跟他們討論，凝聚共識。"],["黃委員珊珊：其實你只要立原則就好。第二個，院長，我覺得很簡單，態度上……"],["陳院長建仁：態度上我們有……"],["黃委員珊珊：面積、人口還有財政的貢獻度，還有儘量把地方稅留在地方，這幾個原則把它定下來就好了。第二個，我們只要表示一個態度，這件事情不要再成為口號，好嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：21個縣市來的意見真的相當分歧。"],["黃委員珊珊：那就不要每天說我要修財劃法，就直接說我會好好分配就好了，也就是說不要承諾一些空話，這才是我的問題。結論是我們希望有一個制度性的改革方案，第二個，我們希望至少有個方向，連馬英九任內都送了一個版本，你們連版本都沒有。"],["陳院長建仁：那為什麼會沒有通過呢？我想就是因為大家有意見。"],["黃委員珊珊：如果長期溝通16年都沒通過的話，如果現在是你執政，你就必須要去處理啊！我們又沒有執政。"],["陳院長建仁：還是要溝通啊！處理的過程就是剛才講的，我們已經有進步，有六個原則出來……"],["黃委員珊珊：我希望看守內閣不是空轉內閣，該做的事情就去做。"],["陳院長建仁：不會是空轉。"],["黃委員珊珊：第一個，剛剛講的不合時宜的稅要調整。第二個，碳稅要開始研議。第三個，財劃法的方向還是要交代，即使蔡總統要卸任了，賴總統上任以後，一樣要把這個問題跟全民交代清楚，好嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我們有在研議。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，我只剩4分鐘了，我還有一個比較重要的問題要來問一下院長。院長，這8年來，你覺得臺灣的居住正義落實的如何？"],["陳院長建仁：我覺得蔡總統當時講的一些關於居住正義的事情，確實有認真在做，像是社會住宅的部分或者……"],["黃委員珊珊：你覺得效益如何？"],["陳院長建仁：我覺得效果應該是不錯，但是對於……"],["黃委員珊珊：但是臺灣為什麼還是低薪高房價、年輕人痛苦不堪？"],["陳院長建仁：我想房價不可能在很短的時間內會有很大的變動……"],["黃委員珊珊：好啦，我們看一下房價，這個應該是部長要上來。"],["陳院長建仁：但是我覺得要解決臺灣的問題就好像你們所提出來的一樣，要從社會住宅來著手。"],["黃委員珊珊：8年來住宅的價格上漲了32%，可是員工的薪水只上漲10%，也就是薪水成長趕不上房價。第二個部分是，8年執政，所得比從8.97變成9.86，也就是說，可能要再多1年不吃不喝才能買房。聯徵中心也查到買房首購的年齡往後挪，從30到35歲到現在首購要35到40歲，臺北市當然更是嚴重，所得比是15.67，也是世界級的，名列前茅。另外，平均地權新法當時是希望能夠打房，可是後來又有新青安貸款，其實又催促了買氣，也就是說，我們在打房跟催促買氣的情況下，其實兩個政策好像有稍微互相矛盾。比較嚴重的就是，審計部也說，房價高，以青年負擔的能力，即使提供更高的補助、更高額度的貸款、延長貸款年限，還有補貼他更多的利息，但是購屋的負擔還是非常沉重。這不是我講，是審計部講的。另外，我們發放了房貸支持金3萬，但是好像也沒有辦法減輕民眾購屋的負擔。院長，我們做了很多耶！但是為什麼還是這麼嚴重？"],["陳院長建仁：我想我們做了很多但為什麼還這麼嚴重，就像你剛才講的房價仍然……"],["黃委員珊珊：繼續往上飆。"],["陳院長建仁：繼續往上飆，另外一個很重要的事情，我覺得我們現在要解決臺灣住的問題，特別是年輕人住的問題的話，應該要從社會住宅的角度來擴建，這樣才是一個最能夠劍及履及，而且能夠做到更好的地方。"],["黃委員珊珊：另外，除了買房買不起之外，其實民眾現在還有一個問題是，那我去租屋好了。你看一下租房子的狀況，現在83%的上班族要付1萬塊，但是新鮮人的薪水大概是3.4萬，也就是三分之一要拿來繳房租。"],["陳院長建仁：所以我們才會推動社會住宅，然後……"],["黃委員珊珊：租金補貼。"],["陳院長建仁：有租金補貼，再加上所謂的包租代管。"],["黃委員珊珊：但是你知道很多年輕人是拿不到租金補貼的嗎？因為他的房東不准他去申請。"],["陳院長建仁：這個部分，我想你可能還不瞭解最近的狀況，我們是不是請部長簡單講一下？"],["黃委員珊珊：如果他去申請了，他就只有選擇搬家。部長，這個我想你心裡很清楚啦！"],["林部長右昌：委員提到的這個問題，我們在去年的時候其實已經有大幅解決，當然可能還有一些狀況，不過跟前年的狀況相比，目前已經大幅改善。"],["黃委員珊珊：有好一些了？"],["林部長右昌：大幅改善。"],["黃委員珊珊：院長，我的時間也不多了，我現在要說的是，租屋市場的黑市還是臺灣一個很嚴重的問題，即使住宅法修正，我們可以拿去申請租金補貼，但是他可能下一次續約的時候就被迫搬走了。第二個是他可能也沒有辦法申請戶口，所以所有在臺北北漂的孩子其實都很難在臺北享受社會福利，所以我覺得讓租屋黑市能夠陽光化才是內政部接下來應該要做的事。林部長，怎麼樣讓租屋黑市陽光化是你最重要的任務吧？"],["林部長右昌：是，對於租屋的透明度，其實這幾年也進步很多，到目前為止我們能夠掌握到租屋的部分已經超過50%。"],["黃委員珊珊：這個部分我們再跟部長聯絡，再請您跟我們做個說明，謝謝。"],["林部長右昌：好，沒問題。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員珊珊的質詢。","接下來向院會報告，我們休息10分鐘，謝謝。","休息（10時19分）","繼續開會（10時30分）"],["主席：報告院會，現在繼續開會。接下來我們請林委員岱樺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":466,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-2","speakers":["韓國瑜","吳秉叡","丁學忠","黃珊珊","林岱樺","陳雪生","張啓楷","徐富癸","謝衣鳯","林國成","蔡其昌","萬美玲","黃秀芳","呂玉玲"],"page_start":371,"meetingDate":["2024-02-27"],"gazette_id":"1130401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130401_00011","1130401_00012"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第2次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1130401_00013"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2.73096875,"end":3.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.4353437499999995,"end":5.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11.489093750000002,"end":13.31159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13.497218750000002,"end":15.083468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":15.657218750000002,"end":17.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":17.20971875,"end":17.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":17.36159375,"end":20.078468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":20.348468750000002,"end":21.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":21.563468750000002,"end":24.870968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":26.06909375,"end":26.355968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":26.96346875,"end":29.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":29.511593750000003,"end":32.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":33.392843750000004,"end":43.922843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":35.58659375,"end":35.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":44.51346875,"end":59.532218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":60.156593750000006,"end":62.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":62.09721875,"end":62.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":62.43471875,"end":62.46846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":62.46846875000001,"end":65.01659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":62.55284375,"end":63.73409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":65.05034375000001,"end":68.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":68.40846875,"end":72.67784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":73.03221875,"end":75.56346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":75.14159375,"end":80.81159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":81.13221875,"end":82.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":83.25846875,"end":86.36346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":85.08096875000001,"end":86.80221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":86.61659375,"end":93.29909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":93.87284375,"end":95.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":94.05846875,"end":94.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":96.55596875,"end":97.23096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":97.56846875000001,"end":100.60596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":101.41596875,"end":110.05596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":109.04346875,"end":113.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":114.10596875,"end":114.56159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":115.00034375000001,"end":120.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":121.17659375000001,"end":121.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":122.49284375,"end":126.57659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":126.88034375000001,"end":127.43721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":127.82534375,"end":133.86659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":134.11971875,"end":137.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":138.32159375,"end":144.85221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":145.34159375000002,"end":148.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05"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對檢察官的壓力是非常大的所以檢察官助理目前為止入法了沒"},{"start":314.69,"end":316.191,"text":"目前我們是行政上先來加強他們"},{"start":343.772,"end":369.894,"text":"所以院長明年113年明年還會有繼續給他們預算嗎?現在100個嘛還要再給他們150個對250個對所以但是什麼時候要入法?你什麼時候要送到立法院來?我想入法就像剛才我們部長講的嘛我們也曾經有過這樣的努力那我們會來研議以後來看看這樣的一個合適性當然需要我們來開相關的"},{"start":372.316,"end":379.011,"text":"您的看守時間到520,您能不能在你任期內把這個案子送到立法院來?"},{"start":381.052,"end":408.437,"text":"應該可以吧,應該都會寫那麼久了。是,我們馬上提出來,那希望委員能夠大力支持。我們會支持,而且我們希望你們盡快送進來,能夠在院長卸任的時候留下這個最重要的一個任務。不過跟委員說明,因為法院組織法是司法院所主管的法規,那會受到司法院的耽擱,不過委員提案了,當然我們盡快來配合來支持。如果他是重要的,就不應該受到耽擱。"},{"start":409.497,"end":428.505,"text":"如果司法院要耽擱,就請司法院快一點表示意見。而不是我們把責任推給司法院。部長這是你的責任。所以司法院如果他有更多...如果要做就不會有人耽擱嘛。"},{"start":429.325,"end":446.631,"text":"所以我們要好好跟他溝通。瞭解他們如果要耽擱的理由在哪裡。 院長如果這個案子之前已經編了預算也給了100個表示他是重要的。接下來你又要再給150個表示他非常的重要。但是我們現在還在說要通過律師法院溝通那行政院的立場。"},{"start":447.811,"end":466.803,"text":"事情的解決有兩個嘛一個就是立法嘛另外一個就是說從行政的角度嘛行政院的角度我們就先給他充實他的人力我需要的是時間啦我想大家都沒有爭議我現在就是時間了還要有司法院有三個院要一起來努力啦所以我才說嘛這是您如果假設您520"},{"start":467.924,"end":492.166,"text":"我當然樂觀其成我當然樂觀其成我盡力來推動我盡力因為這個案子看起來沒有爭議而且行政院也樂觀其成預算也有了所以不要再說程序的問題好嗎這是第一個問題所以我希望打詐不會只有一個打詐辦公室打詐"},{"start":493.57,"end":513.276,"text":"是全民一起,第二個要給他武器,要給他人力。好,我們會。委員那個打詐不是只有打詐辦公室,打詐辦公室是coordinate,內政部、法務部、通廠部、法會。人民在看你的決心,人民在看你的做法。第二個要給他充足的人力跟設備,他才能夠讓台灣脫離所謂的詐騙指導的惡名。我們有決心。"},{"start":520.498,"end":532.623,"text":"院長我們也希望你在會期520之前完成這件事。好下一個問題是稅制改革。我想院長您也在行政院非常久。針對整個財政狀況台灣的財政狀況您覺得狀況如何?"},{"start":536.786,"end":563.381,"text":"我覺得臺灣從COVID-19開始以後再加上全世界的這個供應鏈的改變臺灣的經濟成長在這幾年確實是比以往來說來得好很多而且歲出歲出盈餘委員可能也知道從2017年開始就是正的然後最近幾年都到3000億財政狀況是相當不錯因為出口也很好然後經濟發展也不錯但是"},{"start":564.221,"end":593.521,"text":"台灣針對所謂的稅制改革其實從蔡政府上任之後一直提出有一些稅務需要改我這邊列出來就是長期來大家在討論的叫做娛樂稅、貨物稅、印花稅我還記得很清楚蘇貞昌院長的時候在2019年大力說要廢除印花稅我當時代表台北市政府來立法院跟相關的單位陳情因為印花稅是重要的地方稅"},{"start":594.461,"end":615.058,"text":"如果要取消不是不可以而且它也是一個比較落後的稅制但是中央在稅制改革上面針對娛樂稅貨物稅還有印花稅這種已經不合時的稅制它的改革一直有提出來但是到現在為止沒有看到結果"},{"start":617.45,"end":643.401,"text":"八年的狀況是怎樣咧?你要不要告訴我一下咧?是不是跟委員說明一下印花稅的部分大概一年收取是170億是地方政府非常重要的一個稅源那這個部分我們也邀請地方政府來過開會他們都認為說這個部分是他們很重要的稅源所以他們不贊成廢除地方政府不是不贊成地方政府是需要有替代裁員"},{"start":644.221,"end":669.596,"text":"要有替代財源但是雖然是有替代財源對他們來說這個還是財政制度很重要這是因為地方稅所以為什麼蘇院長在沒有經過審慎思考的時候就說要廢呢那我想另外委員提到就是說你要回答我的問題啊是你們要廢的理由是什麼因為它是一個不合時宜的稅制對吧當然它有一定的一個時間但目前來說還是因為它是1934年民國23年時候訂的法是"},{"start":672.998,"end":697.503,"text":"那是一個非常落後的稅制。第二個娛樂稅的部分以前它是一種奢侈一種高消費但是現在的娛樂稅它已經是電影演唱會球賽已經是人民的基本的日常生活它沒有什麼特別的特別的高消費第三個是貨物稅貨物稅是嚴重的違反所謂的租稅的中立性不是嗎"},{"start":698.754,"end":699.834,"text":"這三個要檢討,檢討了八年,檢討出什麼東西來?"},{"start":723.439,"end":727.462,"text":"議員長我今天要問的是八年的部分的癥結在於我們從來沒有好好檢討過剛剛講的這些稅如果要取消它的替代財源是在哪裡?"},{"start":746.05,"end":748.012,"text":"我想任何財稅的改革中央地方都需要一起來研議"},{"start":762.925,"end":787.564,"text":"然後各界也需要來講。我同意。所以當時在廢議印花稅的時候沒有跟地方政府討論就直接說要廢除所以我們當時臺北市政府才要帶人到立法院到行政院來澄清也就是說這件事情是重要的稅制改革是重要的要跟地方政府溝通要幫他找到地貸財源這些不合時的稅應該改"},{"start":790.03,"end":807.02,"text":"應該要檢討,但是需要溝通跟具體的作為。院長,這個爭解就是,執政8年檢討的結果目前還沒看到。第二個,你可不可以給我一個具體的調整的方向,還有影響程度的跟調整的角度。所以在這8年來我們有很多稅制的改革。"},{"start":813.524,"end":814.826,"text":"我今天的要求就是既然討論這麼久檢討的方向給我一個時間表"},{"start":830.011,"end":858.142,"text":"跟委員報告這個部分我們都有做檢討就是如同剛剛委員說要尊重地方政府的意見所以地方政府的意見是非常的分歧的重視找替代裁員他也認為這個破壞了他的財政自主因為他是地方所以他就要還有自主權我明白所以我們在幫你找替代裁員接下去我要跟你說的是10年前蔡總統在他的10年政綱說要建立綠色的稅制2011年他其實就提出來的所謂綠色稅制"},{"start":860.174,"end":885.398,"text":"我剛講貨物稅其實它有嚴重的違反所謂的租稅中立還有它有邏輯的問題為什麼因為如果是電視它就是有特殊的貨物稅如果它是顯示器它屬於電腦IC產品它就免貨物稅這是一個很奇怪的現象也就是說這些綠色的稅制接下去我們現在2024了綠色稅制要在"},{"start":890.714,"end":915.244,"text":"2026歐盟要進行相關的碳稅的之前,我們現在就必須要準備。兩位同意嗎?委員這個部分已經在今年開始在環境部的部分依照氣變法已經開始徵收碳稅,碳費。我們現在的氣候變遷法是碳費先行,碳稅再慢慢過渡。但事實上在歐盟大概2026就到了,現在已經2024了。"},{"start":916.664,"end":930.45,"text":"然後碳費的部分他其實並不是所謂的大家都有他是可能比較特殊的大的企業第二個他不是全民第三個最重要的是他可能沒有辦法接軌國際是吧"},{"start":932.217,"end":935.059,"text":"沒錯。也就是說過程是一個,但是院長我要說的是臺灣政府必須針對碳稅開始做因應。"},{"start":960.384,"end":960.444,"text":"﹚黃珊珊﹚"},{"start":987.118,"end":989.459,"text":"我們也只有兩年的時間了這個時間不可能再讓大家滿滿演繹"},{"start":1016.161,"end":1035.913,"text":"所以我的意思是說,剛剛講的替代裁員,判稅會是你的替代裁員的考慮的對象之一。這個方式現在就必須要痛定思痛。有時候比較先進的立法會造成一時的痛苦,但是它可以引力人民生活習慣的改變。"},{"start":1037.176,"end":1065.794,"text":"對﹐"},{"start":1066.186,"end":1072.708,"text":"我現在給你兩個建議嘛。第一個反正我們替代財源要找,碳稅是你可以找的替代財源的其中之一。第二個"},{"start":1090.353,"end":1110.569,"text":"探稅即將是面對國際的接軌同時可以改變人民的生活它必須是我們接下來很重要的一個規劃的目標這也是我相信臺灣身為國際社會的一份子必須要走的路院長這是我覺得在您的看守期間可以把這個方向明確的指出來"},{"start":1111.489,"end":1126.753,"text":"還有我們環境部也是一個非常重要的任務。是,部長要不要講一下呢?非常謝謝黃委員的建議。事實上我們跟財政部莊部長這邊都有保持密切的聯繫。就如同剛剛黃委員所提到的"},{"start":1127.233,"end":1132.319,"text":"所以我說嘛就是其實要做都要先溝通所以這是一個很重要的過程"},{"start":1149.517,"end":1167.805,"text":"那重點是政治的核心真的是執行力啦。在這邊要跟院長抱怨一下,我們台北市在2022年其實就6月份就把淨零排放的管理自治條例送到行政院。等於是在兩年多前我們就送過來。"},{"start":1168.985,"end":1193.516,"text":"光在行政院合定的過程大概就一年半這個裡面有非常多所謂淨零碳排的路徑包括可能將來在台北市的比如說旅館他就不可以再放所謂的一次性的用品類似這樣的東西是需要跟民間溝通的也就是一個法律的推展他必須要事先而且要提早跟企業跟市民來過溝通"},{"start":1194.856,"end":1212.652,"text":"但是一個法案躺在行政院一年半才核定有很多要跟地方溝通的事就會耽誤到所以院長我不知道為什麼一個法案要核定個一年半因為你已經離開嘛所以離開台北市政府我想我們請部長來說明為什麼我們會"},{"start":1215.161,"end":1239.549,"text":"需要一段時間來跟地方做溝通。是。我想非常謝謝黃委員在擔任台北市副市長的時候在2022年7月5號就把台北市的淨零排放。因為我們的市議會非常認真很快就通過了。但是因為我們的氣候變遷因應法事實上是去年2月15號才通過。那氣候變遷法通過之後還有12個執法"},{"start":1241.289,"end":1266.954,"text":"所以地方的自治條例必須也在執法跟探盤查、探費等等相關的必須先公告之後才能夠去審地方的自治條例。我要回到是說就是說像這種淨零探牌的事情已經很早我們大概就知道國際趨勢的方式。連一個地方政府都跑得這麼快。我的意思是說將來的環境不尤其是"},{"start":1267.714,"end":1267.874,"text":"﹚黃珊珊﹚"},{"start":1291.018,"end":1292.678,"text":"我一定努力來這樣做至少在這幾個月內"},{"start":1319.566,"end":1347.65,"text":"但是很重要的我想委員你講到一個重點我們希望未來在進行碳排相關的立法的這個過程呢我們能夠再得到朝野黨團的支持讓他這個立法能夠更順利更快謝謝好的院長我覺得這個是很重要接下來還有一個小問題但這個問題我覺得也是地方政府很在乎的財化法蔡總統也說過財化法要修正也說了10年這10年8年的執政"},{"start":1348.777,"end":1367.679,"text":"有沒有送過財化法的修正案到立法院?基本上我想財化法不只是蔡總統的這一段時間。是所有的行政院長都說過要修的對吧?而且是立正的總統都有提到財化法。為什麼都不做呢?我想這個不做。又是立方有意見。"},{"start":1370.373,"end":1395.373,"text":"你委員你當過副市長你很清楚這一個需要各縣市比如說六都我們都明白但是就是有沒有人要做第一個財化法現在的問題我想院長也很清楚這當然委員我講還沒有講完我可以講一下嗎時間只剩7分鐘我還有一個題目我們認為財化法是很重要是不是讓部長簡單講一分鐘好不好部長很簡單"},{"start":1399.92,"end":1426.383,"text":"這個財化法的問題分配不均,發展失衡,人均差異很大。臺北大概是兩萬四,新北的人大概只分到一萬二。更嚴重的是像新竹縣,它只分到九千多。然後最重要的是中央掌握了這個錢跟權,然後地方低頭,所以它就變成一個魔戒。到現在為止沒有一個中央的官員或中央的首長願意下放這個權力,你同意嗎?"},{"start":1427.183,"end":1454.654,"text":"跟委員報告財化法雖然沒有修但是中央透過中央統籌分配稅款跟一般性的補助款對地方的財政大力的益助加上地方政府的努力那財政狀況已經有所改善那至於財化法的修正院長已經指示要遵循各界的意見凝聚共識所以財政部也凝聚了六項的修法原則第一個就是提升財政自主第二個是調劑財政盈蓄第三個是劃一分配的基礎以及精進分配的機制"},{"start":1455.334,"end":1471.003,"text":"然後保障地方財源以及既有的財源不減少那這個部分的六個原則之下呢有關分配的指標也已經請各地方政府來提意見不過目前各地方政府提出來的意見都非常的分析那差距很大所以你要分錢給他當然是其實你只要具原則就好第二個院長我覺得直接很簡單態度上啦"},{"start":1476.786,"end":1477.426,"text":"對21縣市來的意見真的相當分歧"},{"start":1499.13,"end":1524.598,"text":"就直接說我會好好分配就好啦也就是說不要承諾一些空話啦這才是我的問題好啦結論是我們希望說有一個制度性的改革方案第二個我們希望至少有個方向齁這個方向連馬英九任內喔都送一個版本你們連版本都沒有那為什麼會沒有通過呢我想就是因為這就是如果長期溝通16年都沒通過的話就是要"},{"start":1525.714,"end":1549.976,"text":"如果現在是你執政,你就必須要去處理啊。對,處理的過程就是剛才講的,我們已經有進步。我希望看守內閣不是空轉內閣,該做的事情就去做。第二個,剛剛講的不合時宜的稅要調整。第二個,碳稅要開始研議。第三個,財化法的方向其實還是要交代,即使蔡總統要卸任。"},{"start":1551.02,"end":1578.217,"text":"賴總統上任一樣要把這個問題跟全民交代清楚。接下來我剩4分鐘了我還有一個比較重要的問題要來問一下院長。院長這8年你覺得台灣的居住正義落實的如何?我覺得蔡總統當時講的有一些有關於居住正義的事情確實有認真在做那像是社會住宅的部分或者我覺得"},{"start":1579.662,"end":1588.004,"text":"效果應該是不錯但是對於但是台灣為什麼還是低薪高房價年輕人痛苦不堪呢?"},{"start":1588.527,"end":1616.705,"text":"我想房價不可能在很短的時間內會有很大的變動。但是我覺得解決臺灣的問題就好像你們所提出來的一樣。就是要從社會住宅來著手。八年來住宅的價格上漲了32%可是我們的員工就是薪水上漲10%也就是我們薪水成長趕不上房價。第二個部分是八年執政從所得比"},{"start":1618.257,"end":1626.145,"text":"從8.97變成9.86也就是說可能要再多一年不吃不喝才能買房那聯徵中心認為也查到了"},{"start":1627.746,"end":1653.793,"text":"買房首購的年金往後挪移就從30到35現在首購要35到40然後臺北市當然更嚴重是15.67但也是世界級的第一個前面名列前茅那另外就是在平均地權新法當時是希望能夠打房可是目前為止好像後來又有新清安貸款那其實又催促了買氣就是說我們在打房跟催促買氣的情況下"},{"start":1654.933,"end":1679.275,"text":"其實兩個政策好像有稍微互相矛盾那比較嚴重的就是省基部也幫我這不是我講這是省基部講房價高青年負擔的能力即使提供了更高的補助還有更高的額度的貸款延長了貸款的年限還有補貼他更多的利息但是購物的負擔還是非常沉重"},{"start":1680.168,"end":1693.017,"text":"另外就是我們自己發放的房貸支持是3萬但是好像也沒有辦法支持減輕民眾購物的負擔。院長我們做了很多但是為什麼還這麼嚴重?"},{"start":1695.216,"end":1717.479,"text":"我想我們做了很多為什麼會這麼嚴重就像你剛才講的這個房價繼續往上飆那另外一個很重要的事情我覺得我們現在要解決臺灣這個住的問題特別是年輕人住的問題的話應該要從社會住宅的這個角度來擴建是一個最能夠建級旅級而且能夠做到更好的地方"},{"start":1717.739,"end":1721.642,"text":"所以我們才會有來推動社會住宅,然後有這個租金補貼再加上所謂的這個包租貸款。但是你知道很多年輕人是拿不到租金補貼的嗎?"},{"start":1746.833,"end":1756.373,"text":"因為他的房東不准他去申請。這個部分我想你可能還不了解最近的狀況。如果他去申請了他就只有選擇搬家。"},{"start":1757.748,"end":1786.636,"text":"我想委員提到這個問題我們在去年的時候其實已經大幅的解決那當然可能還有一些狀況不過跟前年的狀況目前已經大幅改善了。院長其實我現在要說的是我時間也不多了租屋市場的黑市還是台灣很嚴重的一個問題即使我們租宅法修正我們可以拿去申請租金補貼但是他可能下一次續約的時候就被迫搬走了第二個就是"},{"start":1787.386,"end":1809.951,"text":"他可能也沒有辦法申請戶口所以所有在臺北北漂的孩子其實都很難在臺北有享受社會福利所以我覺得這幾個東西租黑市讓他能夠陽光化才是內政部接下來應該要做的事林部長怎麼樣租黑市陽光化是你最重要的任務吧"},{"start":1810.365,"end":1835.968,"text":"是,我們在於租屋的一個透明度,其實這幾年其實也進步很多。到目前為止,我們能夠...好,謝謝黃委員珊珊的質詢。接下來,院會報告。向院會報告我們休息10分鐘。謝謝。"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}