{"error":false,"id":["149148"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149148,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149148","日期":"2024-02-27","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"院會-11-1-2","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期第2次會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":2,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"院會","標題":"立法院第11屆第1會期第2次會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-02-27T11:13:47+08:00","結束時間":"2024-02-27T11:45:22+08:00","影片長度":"00:31:35","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ee9543ba39e96810a8dd6ea199249cd64c3dd4484df4233ff8ba9b0039caa7a6f2397eb0f42835a15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"11:13:47 - 11:45:22","會議時間":"2024-02-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第2次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、2月23日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、2月27日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","gazette":{"lineno":742,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（11時14分）謝謝韓院長，請陳院長。"],["主席：麻煩請陳院長備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：張委員早，恭喜張委員當選立委。"],["張委員啓楷：院長，不曉得是不是該恭喜你，今天最新的新聞說賴清德總統當選人問他的幕僚說想把你留下來。"],["陳院長建仁：沒有這回事。"],["張委員啓楷：你本來要回中研院的，你會考慮520之後繼續留下來當行政院長嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：您也跟我很熟啦！學術研究一向是我的最愛，我會回到中研院重拾我的學術研究。"],["張委員啓楷：什麼狀況下有可能會留下來？沒有任何可能嗎？你確定是要回中研院？"],["陳院長建仁：當然。"],["張委員啓楷：包括賴清德來拜託你都不會留下來？"],["陳院長建仁：對我來說，我已經離開學術一段時間，我應該回去。"],["張委員啓楷：新聞裡面提到可能要拜託蔡英文蔡總統開口，所以包括蔡英文蔡總統開口，你都不會在520之後留下來當行政院長？"],["陳院長建仁：當時蔡總統邀請我當行政院長的時候，就是講好到520，陪他一起同進退。"],["張委員啓楷：OK，那我們就看看後續的狀況會是怎麼樣，我們進入總質詢。院長還記得這一幕嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：記得，謝謝你。"],["張委員啓楷：這是你那時候當副總統的時候，我邀請你到我的節目「新聞追追追」。"],["陳院長建仁：是，很好的節目。"],["張委員啓楷：我們那時候在討論年金改革，今天為什麼要有這一幕呢？因為那時候的陳建仁被稱為溫暖的大仁哥……"],["陳院長建仁：我希望我現在也是。"],["張委員啓楷：我們現在強調要溫暖、要溝通而且要傾聽，可是院長你有發現最近油電雙漲對人民的衝擊是很大的嗎？你會不會擔心溫暖的大仁哥變成是一位漲價的院長？這會不會是你最後的歷史定位？"],["陳院長建仁：我想我不會是漲價的院長，我一向是願意傾聽、願意溝通、願意協調，但我覺得如果在上個禮拜有些委員講的實在是不符合常理的時候，我也應該要表達我個人對於這些不符合、特別是科學證據的一些回應，我覺得科學是不容打折扣的，這個很重要，而且我們論證的時候一定要講道理、講科學根據……"],["張委員啓楷：院長你的意思是水跟電是確定要漲了嗎？你任內520之前你要……包括你的歷史定位變成是漲價的院長，你都一定要戴著鋼盔往前衝嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我想電費的部分其實是還滿明確的，因為俄烏戰爭的關係，所有的燃料都上升，所以現在台電是賣一度電就賠一度電，在這樣的情況下，為了要確保我們的經濟成長、為了確保我們民生用電無虞，我們確實是在評估當中，很重要的一件事情我也想跟委員報告，台電以往為了要穩定物價，漲價的幅度都低於全世界大部分的國家，所以台電有滿大的虧損，有三千多億的虧損，我們應該要……"],["張委員啓楷：院長，抱歉我提醒你一下，現在是漲電價的好時機嗎？主計總處上個禮拜剛剛宣布，我們實質總薪資創11年來縮幅最大，民間現在反對的聲音非常的大，特別是會帶動物價，你有沒有考慮過這件事情？"],["陳院長建仁：我們有做過評估，如果政府有挹注再加上漲部分電價的話，這樣台電才能有比較合理的未來發展，所以在這一個部分還是請電價審議委員會來就全盤的情況做評估，在上個……"],["張委員啓楷：院長，我先提醒你一件事情，好不好？"],["陳院長建仁：好。"],["張委員啓楷：2012年的時候，馬英九那時候提了油電雙漲，你應該有印象？"],["陳院長建仁：我記得。"],["張委員啓楷：我提醒你是有兩個因素，第一個，他在非洲訪問，記者問他的時候他特別講戴著鋼盔也要往前衝，他的心境看起來跟你是有點像的；第二個，我更要提醒你，馬英九從非洲回來以後他發現完全不對了，不只民調掉到13%，像他是有做了某些改進，包括他去跟民間電廠談，那個利息、利率本來是8%，都降到2%了，可是因為物價已經上去了，民怨很深，你要不要好好再思考一下？"],["陳院長建仁：這個部分我們會讓經濟部還有我們電價的審議委員會來討論。"],["王部長美花：跟委員報告……"],["張委員啓楷：我先請教一下部長……"],["陳院長建仁：我們請部長。"],["王部長美花：因為在過往……"],["張委員啓楷：我看這幾天你的講話，看起來是要漲，而且幅度是不小，那我要提醒一個點，台電虧損，台電以前是金雞母喔！是誰把它搞壞了？台電現在這個虧損要人民來補嗎？要剝人民幾層皮呢？是不是應該回過頭，先去把台電的虧損原因弄清楚？不是急著要漲價。"],["王部長美花：其實我們這個都有做非常詳細的評估，俄烏戰爭到現在，我相信委員也非常清楚，很多歐美國家他們電費漲的幅度是非常、非常高，台電一直吸收這2、3年來的電費，確實讓台電的財務到現在看起來，如果讓它正常的運作會有困難，這個就是我們現在的情形。當然俄烏戰爭之後，燃料成本有一些下降，但是仍舊比戰爭之前高，這個是現實的問題。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我們先看一下這個圖，你一直在強調戰爭跟國際因素造成的影響，第二條線就是你一直在強調的燃料成本，對不對？這是你們台電跟經濟部的決算書裡面的資料，燃料成本在什麼時候開始往下走？民國111年是不是就慢慢往下走了？"],["王部長美花：沒有，整個我們看起來，2022、2023的燃料成本其實是差不多的，主要是在2022的時候，其實中油還有吸收很大一部分。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，請看這個趨勢圖，台電有兩個很重要的支出，一個是燃料成本，一個就是買電，對不對？第二條線，中間黃色的線，在民國110年到111年確實是往上走的一個最高峰，可是在111年的時候它就停住了，往下走囉！不是像你講的一直在往上走，這是第一個點。第二點，我更要請教你的，當你的燃料成本往下降，特別是燃煤，國際的燃煤已經往下掉的時候，下面台電去買電，是不是應該跟著往下降？因為它也用到天然氣、用到煤，是不是這樣？"],["王部長美花：沒有錯，但是因為我們有天然氣跟燃煤兩個，所以我們整個看2022跟2023，2022其實前半年的天然氣，中油沒有完全反映給台電，所以如果就台電的購電成本來講的話，2022跟2023是差不多的，但是……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，抱歉……"],["王部長美花：這裡講的是四千多，我的理解應該是6,000億左右。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，抱歉，這是你們的決算書喔！我要提醒一個點，這個是非常清楚的，當燃料成本慢慢往下掉的時候，你有沒有發現非常奇怪，為什麼台電去買電是往上走的？為什麼？"],["王部長美花：我們如果……"],["張委員啓楷：請問部長跟院長。"],["王部長美花：沒有錯，台電的買電部分，當然有一部分是買綠電，買綠電從2022的五百多億到2023年的900億，是沒有錯，有增加，但是發展綠電也是臺灣一定要去走的路，前面這幾年臺灣就綠電的環境，用躉購費率等等來讓整個綠色的產業能夠發展起來，現在慢慢的，特別委員也知道，離岸風電已經全部都是直接用民間來購電了；太陽光電逐漸不用躉購費率，而賣給民間的占比，從今年大家也會看到越來越多。"],["張委員啓楷：所以部長，你剛才回答就印證了兩件事情，第一個，聽你每次都講國際因素，事實上這個不是那麼重要的，對不對？"],["王部長美花：不對……"],["張委員啓楷：第二個更重要……"],["王部長美花：國際因素還是最大。"],["張委員啓楷：第二個更重要、第二個更重要，當它影響沒有很大的時候、往下掉的時候，為什麼會往上走？是不是買了太多，甚至是太貴的電？我給你看一個數目字，好不好？同樣做太陽能，台電本身也有太陽能，對不對？"],["王部長美花：有，台電也有。"],["張委員啓楷：台電一度是多少？3.36，那為什麼你去買太陽能的時候買到4.86呢？當然可能要給一定的利潤，是沒有錯的，可是會不會給的太高？更嚴重的是什麼？是弊案頻傳，為什麼有那麼多弊案？光是跟光電有關的弊案那麼多。院長一直搖頭，上個禮拜，臺南的88槍光電這個案子，那個主嫌紅龜仔才判了10年，前2年光是跟光電有關的至少起訴了60件。所以它有兩個問題，一個是為什麼那麼好賺？台電虧損那麼多，還要拿我們的錢去補，可是只要台電去買的，都買得那麼貴，而且發生弊案呢？"],["王部長美花：跟委員報告，事實上，躉購費率裡面有非常多的專家，我們用非常精確的成本來算，當然它有一點利潤，但是你不能說它是暴利。台電自己發的太陽能成本比較低，因為台電是用自己的土地來做太陽能。"],["張委員啓楷：這個我瞭解，可是會不會太高了？為什麼會發生弊案？為什麼一段時間會出現很多光電的……"],["王部長美花：跟委員報告……"],["張委員啓楷：這個是不是應該……院長，我們現在要漲人民的錢，要漲電價，結果人民現在看到的是什麼？台電去買的電太貴了，你看看最近的新聞，光是過年那些光電公司發的年終獎金、它的紅利，當台電這麼辛苦的時候，台電以前是一個很好的公司，體質很好的公司，是一個金雞母耶！當它要跟人民拿這麼多錢的時候，它去買電又買這麼貴，人民會怎麼想這個事情？"],["陳院長建仁：我想……"],["張委員啓楷：所以我的結論是，要不要先去把台電買電這個事情弄清楚才去談漲價的事情？如果你內部沒有改革，憑什麼去漲人民的價錢。"],["陳院長建仁：在所有的電價審議委員會討論的過程當中，我們當然也會就台電的支出部分，包括購電的部分、發電的部分做通盤的檢討，讓審議委員會來瞭解，但是剛才講的這些風力也好，太陽能也好，這個發電出來的東西，都是因為有躉售電價的關係才會比較高。當時會有這樣的決定，也是為了要讓國外的電廠，還有國內的電廠願意來投資綠電的發展。"],["張委員啓楷：謝謝院長。"],["陳院長建仁：另外，我再補充一下。實際上綠電占的成本，以目前來看的話，大概是占10%，所以相對於整個電價來看，所有的電還是都來自於燃氣跟燃煤的占比比較多，這個我要跟委員報告一下。"],["張委員啓楷：院長跟部長，你們有一個真相沒有跟我們全民講，沒有跟我們臺灣人民講。第一個，最近的這個價格還是繼續往上走，對不對？買綠電的錢，現在進入高峰期，所以不只今年要錢、有虧損，明年、後年、大後年，至少未來5年在再生能源這一塊虧損會更大，對不對？這是第一個點。第二個，到目前沒有看到你們有解決方案啊，你們現在談的是什麼？2025要增加到20%，現在這個時間才10%、9.9%，虧損已經這麼大，你們要跟人民講清楚，人民這次給了你錢，漲了電價，或者給了補貼之後，未來5年漏洞會更大，要不要跟人民講清楚？"],["王部長美花：事實上，發展再生能源，臺灣已經走得很慢了，發展再生能源的時候，相關的這個部分，臺灣當然要去支持再生能源的產業，但是我剛才講了，現在已經越來越多都已經直接賣給民間的企業，不是用躉購費率的部分。這個部分，台電在維持的時候有穩定，但是也會一直讓它稀釋出去賣給民間，所以我想委員不應該是說再生能源要走回頭路啦！這個臺灣還是該要走了，臺灣已經是比較慢了。"],["張委員啓楷：沒有錯、沒有錯，再生能源，院長跟部長講的我完全贊成。"],["王部長美花：是。"],["張委員啓楷：我們支持再生能源，可是我們反對買太貴、給太多錢，特別是在台電虧損這麼嚴重的時候。第二個，弊端頻傳，所以我們很明確地要求，你們要我支持，我是支持的，可是要做這兩件事情：不要再買太貴，好不好？第二個，弊端一定要查清楚。"],["王部長美花：有、有，所以弊案的情形，事實上現在委員看到的確實都是過去發生的一些案子，檢調已經來協調了，所以現在看起來的情形，目前就有比較正常的發展。"],["張委員啓楷：好，來，我們再看，台電最主要是兩個：一個是外面買電，對不對？另外一個，看買了什麼電。我們再看民間電廠，民間電廠是在李登輝當總統的時候，本來要把台電民營化，後來為什麼去買電？包括9家民營電廠，就是為了效率、為了把價格降低嘛。結果你從這條線看得出來，我們買的電都還是太貴，要給一定的利潤，業界認為多少利潤是合理的？10%以內，可是我們買的都太貴了，這是一個點。","第二個，請大家看一下這個表。院長，看這個表，台電本身也用燃煤，它一度是多少錢？3.57，到了112年的時候降到3.43，台電的燃煤成本是降低的，可是台電去跟民間電廠買電的時候是3.69，不只沒有降，為什麼攀升到4.15？"],["王部長美花：這個……"],["張委員啓楷：我們自己的燃煤降了，國際的趨勢也是降了，台電自發的成本也是降了，請跟我講清楚，為什麼我們去跟民間電廠買的反而是往上走？"],["王部長美花：跟委員報告，這個其實都有非常專業的算計啦！我們也不會說莫名其妙就給民間不應該給的費用，但是民間該有的利潤是有，可是絕對不會無緣無故給它增加，這個都有很細緻的一個算法，所以相關的怎麼算、相關的情形，如果委員要的話，我們也可以提供委員相關的資訊……"],["陳院長建仁：對啦！委員，我想我請……"],["張委員啓楷：院長，你是科學家，你數學很好的。"],["陳院長建仁：對，我想……"],["張委員啓楷：為什麼發生這個狀況？"],["陳院長建仁：委員，我想怎麼樣去算出來這個價錢，經濟部一定有一套的算法，今天時間的關係，我們請經濟部在質詢完以後給你一個……"],["張委員啓楷：院長，大環境裡面燃煤在往下掉，對不對？第二個，如果就台電自己發電跟去買的，這是很簡單的一個比較啊！"],["陳院長建仁：對，但是剛才講過，我們要給……"],["張委員啓楷：台電自己自發的往下掉，結果去買的那麼貴。"],["陳院長建仁：其實我們都很清楚，委員你比我還清楚，當我們的發電量很大，跟民間發電量小的時候，那個成本其實不完全一樣嘛！對嘛？這個我想我們都可以瞭解，所以台電發電的價錢跟民間發電的價錢，這個都要專家去算，因為它的成本是不太一樣，我們也希望鼓勵民間來發電，所以這個部分的價錢真的是有精算的結果。"],["王部長美花：就是他們在算購入電力成本的時候，不會單單只有燃料成本啦！還有整個……"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你能不能在一個禮拜內把為什麼會出現這樣的……"],["王部長美花：沒有問題。"],["陳院長建仁：對！對！我們把報告給你。"],["張委員啓楷：一個禮拜內給我，好不好？"],["陳院長建仁：好。"],["王部長美花：是，沒有問題。"],["張委員啓楷：我到委員會還是進一步要再追這個案子。"],["王部長美花：是，可以公開的一定都會提供給委員。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["張委員啓楷：好。我們再看另外一個，院長，你看所有的發電裡面哪個最便宜？"],["王部長美花：委員提的是……"],["陳院長建仁：核能啦！委員，但是這裡面還沒有包括核廢料處理的後段，還有退役、除役以後的經費，實際上這裡都沒有算。"],["張委員啓楷：我跟你講，至少現在它是一個最便宜也是乾淨的嘛，對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：但是不能夠債留子孫喔！"],["張委員啓楷：我還幫你試算了一下，因為你一直在發展再生能源，我說再生能源我們是支持的，可是不要發生弊案，不要買太貴，這是一個最重要的原則。"],["陳院長建仁：我也同意。"],["張委員啓楷：相對的，既然有很便宜的電，核能一度電成本才1.39，你現在不是在講虧損嗎？如果用核能的話，你可以賺錢耶！"],["陳院長建仁：但是……"],["張委員啓楷：每發一度核能的電，你是賺錢的，為什麼要把它停下來呢？我再幫你試算一個……"],["王部長美花：它不是停下來……"],["張委員啓楷：試算一個更恐怖……"],["王部長美花：它的執照期間就是40年。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我給你一個更恐怖的數字，好不好？這段時間你去買再生能源，如果用最便宜的核能去算，多花了582億，你現在還要把核電慢慢……今年核三廠可能就要除役了，對不對？就表示明年……"],["陳院長建仁：委員……"],["張委員啓楷：我覺得院長跟部長你們有責任跟民眾講清楚，台電不只是去年虧損嚴重……"],["王部長美花：跟委員……"],["張委員啓楷：今年也虧損嚴重，在你們能源政策之下，明年、後年、大後年，一直到至少未來的5年，因為核能變成零，虧損會越來越大，怎麼辦？這個真相應該跟臺灣人民講清楚吧！"],["陳院長建仁：好，委員，核一、核二、核三當時在建設的時候，就已經講好說它的服役期間有多長，現在我們會讓它除役就是因為時間已經到了，40年到了嘛！所以我們就是除役，這是很早以前就訂定下來的規定。委員講的是說核能很好，可是這裡面剛才講的核廢料處理是未來的成本，還有除役時成本很高。另外一個很重要的就是在未來的這幾年，如果我們……貴黨有提到說核能要延役，那如果核能要延役、即使要延役的話，不是說今天到期的時候我說延役就可以繼續發電，不可以的喔！還必須要有2到4年的時間才能夠來繼續發電，這是按照安全的規定嘛！而且核能現在在臺灣發電的占比是相當的低啦，所以它對電價的影響度，還是沒有我們所謂的燃氣、燃煤的影響大，因為它占了百分之九十左右嘛……"],["王部長美花：八十。"],["陳院長建仁：所以這樣子看起來，整個電價未來的結構都一定是受到國際燃料的影響。"],["張委員啓楷：院長，你聽過一句話吧？「錯誤的政策比貪污更可怕」，我不能講你一定完全是錯誤的，至少眼睜睜的，我覺得院長跟部長今天有責任要跟我們臺灣的民眾講清楚。"],["陳院長建仁：好，我們會講清楚。"],["張委員啓楷：因為你現在要漲電價，人民已經被你剝好幾層皮了……"],["陳院長建仁：是，講清楚。"],["張委員啓楷：因為現在如果物價漲、電價又漲，很多人是很苦的。"],["陳院長建仁：今年的物價……"],["張委員啓楷：今天院長坐在上面，院長的名言是什麼？「莫忘世上苦人多」對不對？院長又要這樣講……"],["王部長美花：跟委員報告……"],["張委員啓楷：漲完電價之後，特別是民生又更苦，這是一個點……"],["王部長美花：就是因為……"],["張委員啓楷：第二個，就是因為大家很苦的同時你們又要漲，我剛才講過了，你要跟民間電廠買就要透明公開，對不對？"],["王部長美花：這個沒有問題，是。"],["張委員啓楷：然後第二個太陽能跟再生能源，你也是要清楚。第三個，明明有一個可以省錢的，你為什麼要這樣做？"],["王部長美花：沒有，因為……"],["張委員啓楷：而且你剛剛提的，我講個重點……"],["陳院長建仁：這是by law啊！"],["張委員啓楷：國民黨跟民眾黨都贊成核二、核三延役……"],["陳院長建仁：對，但是依法……"],["張委員啓楷：我們主席柯文哲講清楚了，他們體檢核四如果可以用的時候，可以再用核能啊！為什麼兩個黨都認為它是安全的、可以省錢的，而民進黨就堅持一定要把它廢掉呢？不能延役呢？"],["陳院長建仁：我們現在核能廠除役是依法規定的嘛！40年到了，就是要除役嘛！好，現在假設就像您講的一樣，就是不除役、要延役的話，我們是不是要有延役法律的依據嘛，對不對？"],["張委員啓楷：對，我們都在提法啦！有啦！民眾黨也提了、國民黨也提了……"],["陳院長建仁：好，對，提法……"],["張委員啓楷：現在三黨不過半，新的國會可能就會過了。"],["陳院長建仁：對，對，那提了以後呢？我還是要強調核安的部分啦！就是說到了40年以後，它要繼續發電是需要有安全檢查，國外的經驗，大概都是2到5年的時間啦，大部分都是5年啦，所以為什麼5年前就要申請延役？5年前申請延役的時間，就是為了要這5年的期間來做安全檢查，讓它截止的那1天可以繼續發電……"],["張委員啓楷：院長，你講的依法這個當然一定不會違背嘛！所以包括國民黨、包括民眾黨都已經在提案子了嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：對、對，我們……"],["張委員啓楷：對不對？這個我們要共同努力。我今天的質詢重點是窟窿這麼大，你們要跟大家講，未來的窟窿會更大……"],["陳院長建仁：會，我們會跟大家說明清楚。"],["張委員啓楷：大家準備好過苦日子嗎？溫暖的院長能不能多給大家一些溫暖，幫人民解決問題？"],["陳院長建仁：我們一定會在考量所有電價的時候，跟以前你講的前總統在調電價的時候，是不一樣的。因為我們歷次，你看我們調電價的時候，都會考慮到民生用電、大小商店的用電，還有不同產業用電，以及產業是在上升的、是狀況好的、還是下降的，我們都會很仔細的來決定電價的調整。原因就是讓產業能夠繼續永續、讓民生不會受到影響，這就是我們在調電價的時候，希望我們的審議委員會做很精緻的調整，這是我們會努力來做。委員你講的，要講清楚，要讓老百姓知道，這是一定的……"],["張委員啓楷：對，一定的。"],["陳院長建仁：讓大家一定要瞭解，要不然我們一定是要戴鋼盔，但是我們就是要好好的跟大家說理，為什麼要這樣調，說明清楚了，大家也可以共體時艱嘛，這是我們要努力的。"],["張委員啓楷：好，所以部長跟院長，我提了3個可以讓電價不見得要漲的方案，你們聽完之後，到底有沒有可能這一次的要嘛就不要漲；要嘛至少讓民生不要漲，有沒有可能性？如果你照我剛剛那個改革，確實有很多錢是可以省下來的，應該從改革做起把成本降低，不是急著要讓人民被剝了好幾層皮啊！有沒有可能民生不要漲……"],["王部長美花：事實上……"],["張委員啓楷：330度以下不要漲，這可能性存不存在？"],["陳院長建仁：這個要專家委員會去評估啦！我們現在如果沒有數字，在這邊用嘴巴說，這樣不夠科學啦！要較科學的、較有基礎的說法，就是要有專家評估。"],["張委員啓楷：部長的說法，你是說用電大戶應該是會漲嘛，對不對？工業用電會漲嘛，你對民生用電，到底要不要漲？"],["王部長美花：第一個，確實台電這樣的虧損還是需要政府財源的挹注啦！第二個，電價我們會召開小組來討論，現在對民生的用電，確實我們很久很久都沒有漲……"],["張委員啓楷：已經20年，所以這次如果漲了，為什麼我剛才講的，你會變成「漲價院長」，20年沒有人敢調的，現在的物價上漲這麼嚴重……"],["王部長美花：不是，但是因為相關的……"],["張委員啓楷：現在政府要去調它嗎？"],["王部長美花：俄烏戰爭之後，整個電價的成本跟過往的電價成本不同，早期電價成本可能兩塊、兩塊多一點，但其實現在電價的成本差不多是4塊左右，這對我們已經長期影響，因為體恤一般的民眾，所以很久很久都沒有漲，這個我們會通盤去檢討。"],["張委員啓楷：通盤檢討，所以不漲的可能性存在嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：也有可能，我們會讓專家來討論啦！"],["張委員啓楷：不漲的可能性是不是存在？"],["王部長美花：我們會通盤來看這個相關情形。"],["陳院長建仁：委員，你講的也是一個方案，這個方案怎樣做比較好，當然就要有數字嘛！數字要有討論，讓專家來討論可能比較適合啦！而不是我們今天在這裡沒有數據的依據來做。但是我在這裡要講，我們在調整電價的過程當中一定會考慮到怎麼樣讓民生用電的影響最小，而且不要影響到物價的上升，實際上主計總處有在估算電價調漲到什麼程度的時候不會影響物價。"],["張委員啓楷：謝謝院長，請記得把我剛剛要的資料在一個禮拜內給我，第一個，跟民間電廠買太貴的部分；第二個，弊案怎麼去除跟整個公開透明。","我再請教一個跟經濟發展很有關係的問題，台積電要落腳到嘉義，這個到底會不會跳票？之前賴清德總統當選人到嘉義時，他說要全力去促成，你們兩位會幫忙嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我想台積電到嘉義這件事情，我們會積極來努力，目前也已經有相關的部會或者是相關的這個……我們副院長也有去協調了，這部分我們樂觀其成。"],["張委員啓楷：好，謝謝院長。"],["陳院長建仁：這個很重要。"],["張委員啓楷：部長也會幫忙對不對？"],["王部長美花：事實上台積電在臺灣包括先進的製程、先進的封裝等等，我們都會讓它在臺灣落腳，有時候相關的投資案會需要廠商來宣布比較好，但是對政府來講，它在哪裡、合適做什麼產業，我們都會跟產業界做詳細的溝通。"],["張委員啓楷：現在看起來，照它園區的規定，先進的封測廠是可以的，所以我們全力爭取，當然我知道主委有提到1吋晶圓現在可能有困難，可是環評我們還是會努力，謝謝院長跟部長的支持。","另外，我再問一個嘉義的事情，嘉義一直在爭取一個輕軌，從高鐵太保站進到嘉義市的輕軌，它的相關報告已經到院長那邊嘛，院長、行政院會支持這個輕軌嗎？這個載量是夠的對不對？超過5萬人了。"],["陳院長建仁：輕軌的部分確實已經在做相關的評估，這部分是不是給我們的交通部長來講一下，好不好？"],["張委員啓楷：是，國材，你只要講你支持就好了，你不用再講了！"],["王部長國材：我們已經有撥了1,290萬，請他做可行性了。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["王部長國材：所以基本上我們支持BRT轉輕軌這個方向，請嘉義市政府趕快提出相關報告。"],["陳院長建仁：對，不然我們如果再……"],["張委員啓楷：需要你們的幫忙，拜託一下。","另外，嘉義市鐵路高架化那筆錢，陳水扁總統到了嘉義市，清清楚楚跟我們嘉義人說的，那38億是中央要出的，結果現在叫嘉義市政府出，嘉義市1年的總預算還不到190億，結果你要他出38億，現在物價已經上來了，變成48.2億，這筆錢行政院或交通部可以幫忙嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：陳水扁總統那個時候答應的，因為時代的變遷，再加上我們已經有很多的不同，在蓋高架化的時候都有新的規範，所以這部分我請部長說明一下。"],["王部長國材：是，現在大概是這樣，原來的38億也是經過跟嘉義市政府討論的結果，現在多了10億，我們現在初步是因為嘉義的財政負擔，原來從三級現在降為四級，所以一個是補86%、一個補84%，現在初步就是以這個……"],["龔主任委員明鑫：報告委員，因為總的預算增加……"],["張委員啓楷：抱歉、抱歉！國材，你說會幫忙多少？"],["王部長國材：就是2%可以討論，現在多2%都可以討論。"],["張委員啓楷：只有2%嗎？能不能再補助多一點？"],["王部長國材：因為我們必須全國有一樣的規則……"],["陳院長建仁：這是全國性的規定……"],["張委員啓楷：你說這是48.2億的2%？"],["王部長國材：不是，增加那10億的2%。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：報告委員，因為總的增加，增加了95億。"],["陳院長建仁：對啊！"],["龔主任委員明鑫：所以市政府只增加10億而已，其他的80幾億全部都由中央負擔。"],["張委員啓楷：好啦！我們再積極、再更多一點，好不好？謝謝，感謝。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：所以它負擔比較少……"],["陳院長建仁：對啦！我們絕對不會虧待嘉義。"],["張委員啓楷：好，謝謝，感謝。"],["主席：謝謝張委員啓楷的質詢，謝謝陳院長。","報告院會，上午質詢到此為止，本次會議未有委員提出臨時提案，就不進行臨時提案之處理。","下午2點30分繼續開會，進行質詢。現在休息，謝謝。","休息（11時45分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":466,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-2","speakers":["韓國瑜","吳秉叡","丁學忠","黃珊珊","林岱樺","陳雪生","張啓楷","徐富癸","謝衣鳯","林國成","蔡其昌","萬美玲","黃秀芳","呂玉玲"],"page_start":371,"meetingDate":["2024-02-27"],"gazette_id":"1130401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130401_00011","1130401_00012"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第2次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1130401_00013"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.43596875,"end":0.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":50.41971875,"end":51.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":52.360343750000006,"end":53.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.99721875,"end":55.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":61.40534375,"end":64.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":64.94909375,"end":68.57721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":69.06659375000001,"end":73.09971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":74.97284375000001,"end":75.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":75.69846875,"end":76.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":75.74909375,"end":75.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.54221875,"end":79.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":80.25471875000001,"end":81.65534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":81.94221875000001,"end":82.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":82.93784375,"end":90.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":92.64096875,"end":93.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":93.61971875,"end":93.63659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":93.63659375,"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2.926,"text":"但是這裡講的4千多,我的理解應該是6千億左右。部長抱歉,這是你們的結算書喔。我要提醒一個點,這個是非常清楚的。當燃料成本往下,慢慢往下掉的時候,你們會發現非常奇怪,為什麼台電去買電是往上走的?"},{"start":564.341,"end":574.691,"text":"為什麼我們如果沒有錯臺電的買電的部分當然有一部分是買綠電是買綠電那我買綠電呢從2022的500多億到2023年的900億是沒有錯有增加"},{"start":581.477,"end":604.13,"text":"但是發展綠電也是臺灣一定要去走的路那前半段前面這幾年呢臺灣就綠電的環境用賭購費率等等來讓這個整個綠色的產業能夠發展起來那現在慢慢的特別委員也知道離岸風電已經全部都是直接用民間來購電了那太陽光電呢"},{"start":606.091,"end":635.322,"text":"所以部長你剛才回答就印證了兩件事情。第一個,你每次都講國際因素。事實上這個不是那麼重要的,對不對?不對,國際因素還是最大。第二個更重要,當它影響沒有那麼大的時候,往下掉的時候,為什麼要往上走?是買了太多甚至是太貴的電。我給你看一個數目字好不好?"},{"start":640.501,"end":656.954,"text":"臺電本身有太陽能對不對?有,臺電也有。臺電一度是多少?3.36那為什麼你去買太陽能的時候買到4.86呢?當然可能要給一定的這個利潤是沒有錯的,可是會不會給得太高?更嚴重的是什麼?立案平傳。"},{"start":658.622,"end":680.679,"text":"為什麼有那麼多弊案光是跟光電有關的弊案那麼多上個禮拜院長一直搖頭上個禮拜臺南的八十八槍光電這個案子那個主嫌昂貴才判了10年前兩年光是跟光電有關的至少起訴了60件喔所以他有兩個問題一個是為什麼那麼好賺跟台電台電虧損那麼多還要拿那麼多錢去補"},{"start":683.1,"end":703.169,"text":"那我們的錢去補可是只要臺電去買的都買得那麼貴而且發生幣安安。欸跟委員報告齁事實上那個短過匯率齁其實裡面有非常多的專家我們用非常精確的成本來算那當然他有一點利潤但是你不能說他是暴利那臺電自己發的太陽能力成本比較低因為"},{"start":704.389,"end":729.918,"text":"臺電是用自己的土地來做...這個我了解可是會不會太高了為什麼會發生弊案為什麼一段時間你就出現很多光電的這個是不是應該院長我們現在要賬人民的錢要賬電價結果人民現在看到的是什麼你臺電去買的電是太貴了你看看最近的新聞光是一個過年光電的那些公司發的連中賬金他的紅利"},{"start":732.515,"end":737.082,"text":"欸當台電這麼辛苦的時候台電以前是一個很好的公司體質很好的公司是個經濟模欸"},{"start":738.88,"end":764.727,"text":"當他要跟人民拿這麼多錢的時候他去買電又買這麼貴人民會怎麼想這個事情所以我的結論是要不要先去把臺電買電這個事情把它弄清楚才去談漲價的事情你說內部沒有改革你憑什麼去漲人民的價錢我們當然在所有的電價審議委員會在討論的過程當中我們當然也會就臺電的這個支出的部分包括購電的部分包括發電的部分做同"},{"start":765.307,"end":766.588,"text":"謝謝院長另外我再補充一下就是說實際上這個綠電"},{"start":794.991,"end":797.873,"text":"所以院長跟部長你們有一個真相沒有跟我們前名講沒有跟我們台灣人民講第一個"},{"start":822.717,"end":842.392,"text":"最近的這個價格還是往上走對不對買綠電的錢現在進入高峰期喔所以你明年不只今年要錢有虧損明年後年大後年至少未來五年在再生能源這一塊虧損會更大對不對這是第一個點第二個你們到目前沒有看到你們解決方案阿"},{"start":843.254,"end":859.461,"text":"你們現在談的是什麼2025要增加到20%那現在這個時間現在才18、9.9虧損已經這麼大你們要跟人民講清楚人民這是給了你錢、漲了定價或者給你補貼之後未來5年漏洞會更大要不要跟人民講清楚"},{"start":860.241,"end":882.522,"text":"欸事實上發展再生能源臺灣其實已經走得很慢了那發展再生能源的時候那相關的這個部分臺灣當然要去支持這個再生能源的產業但是我剛才講了現在已經越來越多都已經直接賣給民間的企業不是用等購費率的部分所以這個部分呢臺電"},{"start":883.943,"end":910.195,"text":"我們在維持的時候穩定但是也會一直讓他稀釋出去賣民間所以我想委員對不應該是說再生能源要走回頭路啦這個還是台灣要走了台灣已經是比較慢了再生能源院長跟部長講我完全贊成我們是支持再生能源可是我們反對買太貴給太多錢特別是在台電虧損這麼嚴重的時候第二個弊端頻傳所以我們很明確的要求"},{"start":911.161,"end":937.318,"text":"你們要有支持我是支持可是要做這兩件事情不要再買太貴好不好第二個弊端一定要查清楚有有所以弊案的情形事實上現在這個委員現在看到都是確實過去有發生一些案子然後檢調已經來協調所以現在看起來的情形目前就比較正常的一個在發展我們再看臺電最主要是兩個一個是外面買電對不對"},{"start":938.598,"end":965.1,"text":"另外一個看買了什麼電,我們再看民間電廠。民間電廠是第一天會議做總統的時候,本來要把台電要把它民營化。那後來為什麼去買電,包括9家民營電廠?就是為了效率,為了把價格降低嗎?結果你從這條線看出來,我們買的電都還是太貴。要給一定的利潤,業界認為有多少利潤是合理的?10%以內。可是我們買的都太貴,這是一個點。第二個,請大家看一下這個表。院長,看這個表。"},{"start":967.861,"end":992.869,"text":"臺電本身也用燃煤他一度是多少錢3.57到了112年的時候降到3.43臺電的燃煤成本是降低的可是臺電去跟民間的業者買電的時候跟民間電廠買電的時候3.69不只沒有降為什麼攀升到4.15"},{"start":996.367,"end":1006.402,"text":"我們自己的燃料也降了,國際的趨勢也是降了,臺電自己自發的成本也是降了。請跟我說,請跟我講清楚,為什麼我們去跟民間電廠買的,反而是往上走。"},{"start":1007.518,"end":1008.239,"text":"議長你是科學家,你數學很好的。"},{"start":1039.44,"end":1059.561,"text":"委員我想這個怎麼樣去算出來這個價錢經濟部一定有一套的這個的算法那今天的時間的關係我們請經濟部在質詢完以後在大的環境裡面燃煤再往下掉對不對第二個你如果就台電自己發電跟去買的這很簡單的一個比較啊"},{"start":1060.3,"end":1078.941,"text":"對,但是剛才講一個往下,一個自發的往下掉,結果去買的買那麼貴。其實我們都很清楚嘛,委員你不要還清楚,當我們的發電量很大的跟民間發電量小的時候,那個成本其實不完全一樣嘛,這個我想我們都可以了解。"},{"start":1079.321,"end":1095.079,"text":"所以臺電的花店的價錢跟民間花店的價錢這個都要專家去算因為他的這個成本是不太一樣那我們也希望鼓勵來跟民間有花店所以這一個部分的價錢真的是有精算的結果"},{"start":1095.86,"end":1097.701,"text":"院長,你看所有的發電裡面哪個最便宜?"},{"start":1125.868,"end":1127.048,"text":"但是不能夠再留子孫"},{"start":1146.434,"end":1164.055,"text":"我來跟你試算了一下,因為你一直在發展再生能源,我說再生能源我們是支持的,可是不要發生必然,不要買太貴,這是一個最重要的面子。那相對的,既然有很便宜的電,核能一度電成本才1.39,你現在不是在講虧損嗎?"},{"start":1165.663,"end":1183.884,"text":"你如果用核能的話你可以賺錢欸每發一度核能的電你是賺錢的那你為什麼要把它停下來呢我再幫你試算一個更恐怖的數字好不好這段時間你去買再生能源的如果用最便宜的核能計算都花了582億"},{"start":1186.837,"end":1216.166,"text":"那你現在你還要把核電慢慢還要今年核三廠可能就要退就表示明年我覺得院長跟部長你們有責任跟民眾講清楚台電不只是去年虧損民眾今年虧損民眾在你們能源政策之下明年後年大後年至少或未來的五年因為核能的這個變成零虧損會越來越大怎麼辦這真相要跟台灣人民講清楚吧好"},{"start":1216.943,"end":1233.399,"text":"委員那個和一和二和三當時在建設的時候就已經講好說他的服役期間是有多長那現在我們會讓他除役就是因為時間已經到了嘛40年到了嘛所以我們就是除役這是很早以前就訂定下來的這個規定那"},{"start":1235.761,"end":1252.114,"text":"委員講的是說好那核能很好可是這裡面剛才講的核廢料的處理是未來的成本還有廚藝是成本很高另外一個很重要的就是說在未來的這幾年如果我們貴黨有提到說核能要研議"},{"start":1253.015,"end":1268.244,"text":"那如果核能要研議即使要研議的話不是說我今天到期的時候我說研議就可以繼續發電,不可以喔還需要有2到4年的時間才能夠來繼續發電這是按照這個安全的規定嘛"},{"start":1268.404,"end":1268.424,"text":"﹚張啓楷"},{"start":1284.81,"end":1310.698,"text":"所以這樣子可以看起來的話,如果整個電價未來的結構都一定是受到國際燃料的影響。院長你聽過一句話吧,錯誤的政策比貪污更恐怖、更可怕。我不能講說你今天完全是錯誤的,可是至少遠征征的,我覺得院長跟部長今天有責任要跟我們台灣的民眾講清楚。因為你現在要漲電價,人民已經被你包好幾層皮了,因為現在如果物價漲、電價又漲,"},{"start":1313.604,"end":1313.624,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":1333.953,"end":1334.033,"text":"我們...我們"},{"start":1363.17,"end":1379.228,"text":"現在核能廠除役是依法規定的嘛你40年到來你就是要除役嘛那你現在如果說好假設就像您講的一樣就是說不除役要延役的話那我們是不是要有延役的法律的依據嘛對不對"},{"start":1379.889,"end":1385.83,"text":"提了以後我還是要強調那個核安的部分就是說你一個到了40年以後他要開始去繼續發電是需要有安全檢查國外的經驗大概都是2到5年的時間大部分都是5年"},{"start":1406.235,"end":1429.637,"text":"那所以為什麼要5年前就要申請原意嗎?可是5年前申請原意的時間就是為了要這5年的期間來做安全檢查,讓他截止那一天...院長你講的依法這個當然一定不會違背嘛,所以包括國民黨包括民眾黨都已經提案子了嘛,對不對?這個我們要共同努力,我今天的執行重點是窟窿這麼大,你們要跟大家講"},{"start":1430.157,"end":1432.379,"text":"我們一定會跟在考量所有的電價的時候跟以前齁"},{"start":1446.628,"end":1471.114,"text":"你講的前總統在調電價的時候是不一樣的因為我們看歷次你看我們調建價的時候都會考慮到民生用電大小商店的用電還有不同產業用電還有產業是在上升的這個狀況好的還是下降的我們都會有很仔細的來這樣的決定電價的調整原因就是讓產業能夠繼續永續讓民生不會受到影響"},{"start":1474.335,"end":1500.118,"text":"這就是我們在調電價的時候希望我們的審議委員會做很精緻的調整這是我們會努力來做委員你講的說要說清楚讓我們賣誰不知道這一定要大家一定要了解要不然的話我們是一定要帶慷慨但是我們就是說要好好的跟大家說理為什麼要這樣調說理清楚了大家也可以說共體時間這是我們要努力的"},{"start":1501.099,"end":1529.818,"text":"所以部長跟院長我提了三個可以讓電價不見得要漲的方案你們聽完之後到底有沒有可能這一次的要嘛就不要漲要嘛的話至少讓民生不要漲有沒有可能性如果你照我剛剛那個改革其實有很多錢是可以省下來的啊應該從改革做起把成本把它降低啊不是急著要去讓人民被撥老幾層皮啊有沒有可能民生不要330度以下不要漲這可能性存不存在"},{"start":1531.016,"end":1544.882,"text":"這個要專家委員會去評估啦,我們現在講齁,我們若沒數字齁,直接用嘴講齁,這樣不夠苛刻啦。苛刻的齁,比較有基礎的講法就是講要有重大懲罰。法定的講法,你是說用電大戶,應該是會長嘛,對不對?工業用電會長嘛,你對民生用電,"},{"start":1553.013,"end":1572.478,"text":"第一個我們當然第一個確實臺電的這樣的虧損還是需要政府的裁員的益助。第二個那個電價我們會召開小組來討論。那現在就是對民生的用電確實我們很久很久都沒有漲。已經20年所以你這次如果調的為什麼我剛剛講會變漲價廉的。20年沒有人敢調的。"},{"start":1576.219,"end":1601.706,"text":"現在的物價上漲又這麼嚴重。現在的政府要去調它嗎?相關的這個惡霧戰爭之後整個電價的成本跟在過往的電價成本早期電價成本可能兩塊兩塊多一點但是現在電價的成本其實是差不多四塊左右那這個對我們已經長期因為體恤這個比較這個一般的民眾所以很久很久都沒有賬那所以這個我們會通盤去檢討"},{"start":1604.187,"end":1617.377,"text":"所以通盤檢討是不仗可能性的存在嗎?不仗的可能性是不是存在?我們會通盤來看這個相關的情形。委員你講的那是一個方案,這個方案如何比較好當然就要有措辭,這措辭要有討論,讓專家來討論可能比較適合"},{"start":1628.966,"end":1628.986,"text":"謝謝院長"},{"start":1656.746,"end":1669.293,"text":"請記得把剛剛要的資料一個禮拜內給我,跟民間電廠沒買太貴了。第二個弊案怎麼去去除,跟整個公開透明。那我再問你一個,我再請教一個跟經濟發展很有關係的。台積電要繞腳到嘉義,台積電要繞腳到嘉義。"},{"start":1674.341,"end":1697.377,"text":"到底會不會跳票?之前賴清德總統當選人到嘉義的時候他是說要潛力去促成你們兩位會幫忙嗎?我想台積電到嘉義這件事情我們會積極來努力目前也已經有我們相關的部會或者是相關的就是我們副院長也有去協調這個部分我們樂觀其成"},{"start":1702.237,"end":1704.339,"text":"我們事實上對台積電在臺灣包括這個先進的製程包括先進的封裝等等我們都會讓他在臺灣落腳"},{"start":1717.13,"end":1745.253,"text":"那這個部分有時候相關的投資案會有需要廠商來宣布比較好但是對政府來講他在哪裡是合適做什麼產業我們都會跟產業界做詳細的溝通現在看起來照他園區的這個規定先進的風車廠是可以的所以我們全力爭取當然我知道主委有提到可能一寸經驗現在可能有困難可是環評我們是會努力那謝謝院長跟這個部長的這個支持另外我再問一個嘉義的事情"},{"start":1745.939,"end":1755.205,"text":"現在一直在爭取一個輕軌為高鐵太保站一枚加機器的這次。他那個報告已經到那個院長那邊嘛。院長、行政院這邊會支持這個輕軌嗎?他那個載量已經從RO"},{"start":1758.823,"end":1764.947,"text":"國產只要講你支持就好了,你不用再講了。我們已經有撥了1290萬,請他做可行性的。所以基本上我們支持這個方向。請嘉義市政府趕快提出這個報告。"},{"start":1786.943,"end":1790.928,"text":"加一是鐵路高架化那筆錢陳水扁總統到了加一是親親手手跟人家說的那38億是"},{"start":1801.345,"end":1807.489,"text":"陳水扁總統那個時候答應的因為時代的變遷再加上我們已經有很多不同的在蓋這個高價化的時候都有新的規範所以這個部分我請部長說明一下"},{"start":1831.045,"end":1856.438,"text":"現在大概這樣,原來38億這也是經過跟嘉義市政府討論的結果那現在多了10億齁我們現在初步是因為嘉義的財政負擔他原來從這個3級現在降回4級所以一個是補86%一個補84%所以我們現在初步就是因為總的預算是加了...國產銀行會...抱歉抱歉國產銀行會幫忙多少?欸就是2%可以討論現在2%多2%可以討論只有2%嗎?能不能再補出多一點?"},{"start":1860.202,"end":1862.607,"text":"現在因為我們必須全國有一樣的規則。這是全國性的規定。48.2億。"},{"start":1889.121,"end":1894.872,"text":"響鐘"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}