{"error":false,"id":["149152"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149152,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149152","日期":"2024-02-27","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"院會-11-1-2","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期第2次會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":2,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"院會","標題":"立法院第11屆第1會期第2次會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-02-27T15:49:11+08:00","結束時間":"2024-02-27T16:05:22+08:00","影片長度":"00:16:11","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ee9543ba39e9681037018591e04579074c3dd4484df4233ff8ba9b0039caa7a6f30caff4e49f2b215ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡其昌","委員發言時間":"15:49:11 - 16:05:22","會議時間":"2024-02-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第2次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、2月23日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、2月27日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","gazette":{"lineno":382,"blocks":[["蔡委員其昌：（15時49分）主席好！大家好！請陳院長、內政部林部長。"],["主席：麻煩請陳院長備詢，麻煩請林部長，謝謝。"],["陳院長建仁：蔡委員，午安！我很久都不曾讓你質詢過了。"],["蔡委員其昌：我坐在上面8年，都已經快忘了站在這裡的感覺，今天讓我有機會再回味一下。","院長，我有注意到臺中市政府又打算賣臺中市的土地，我也看到今天內政部林部長針對臺中市賣土地特別發了一個公文提醒一下臺中市，剛剛我又看到臺中市政府發的新聞稿說它不想鳥你啦！簡單講，我用白話文講，就是它照常準備開始標售臺中市政府的這些抵費地。在我的看法上，其實市政府賣土地不是什麼新鮮的事情，我想林部長你也當過市長，你也賣過土地，但是我想市政府賣土地在這個階段裡面我們所面臨的挑戰有二個，第一個挑戰就是到底市政府的市長，也就是一個地方政府的首長，他願不願意把年輕人的問題當作他施政的首要目的。換言之，大家在談社會住宅，如果市政府所有的這些住宅用地都給它賣掉，毫不保留，連保留個幾趴來蓋社會住宅都不願意，那社會住宅只有靠中央來蓋，要達成我們所期待讓年輕人在居住正義這個議題上面可以得到緩解，可以得到一個家，可以得到一個窩，根本是遙遙無期。","針對臺中市政府我做了一個統計，臺中市縣市合併之後，歷任的市長，胡市長大概賣了234億的土地，林佳龍市長大概賣了75.5億的土地，盧秀燕市長大概賣了504億的土地，所以這個叫做賣土地的巨人。但是如果我們來看一下臺中市社宅的狀況，我們就可以很清楚地發現，從林佳龍市長開始規劃興建有18個地方、五千兩百多戶的社會住宅。林市長跟盧市長交接的時候，大概就是兩個市長在交接這個階段規劃興建的大概有2個地方一千兩百多戶。到盧市長自己任內5年的時間，他只規劃了4個地方一千六百多戶，那中央有10個地方大概六千四百多戶，所以我稱盧市長跟臺中市政府叫做蓋社宅的侏儒，也就是臺中市出了一個賣土地的巨人，而是蓋社宅的侏儒，所以臺中市的社宅，在我的看法上，這個目標是遙遙無期。","我也看到臺中市政府發了一個新聞稿說中央給臺中市的目標是1萬4,000戶的社會住宅，我想請問林部長，有沒有這個目標？這個目標的訂定是怎麼來的？"],["林部長右昌：跟委員報告一下，我們過去訂的的確是1萬4,000，不過剛剛特別提到賣土地的問題，其實最近這三、四年左右，因為房價上漲，民眾其實是對這個很敏感。因為中央政府已經沒有在賣地了，所以我們非常希望地方政府在標售土地的時候要特別注意，因為這個會產生所謂的定錨效果。這一次我為什麼特別提？因為這一次它訂了200億的底價，其實已經比市場的行情高了許多，所以我們必須要提醒這個事情。"],["蔡委員其昌：林部長，定錨作用我待會再跟你討論，我們先把第一個問題解決。所以臺中市政府這樣賣土地，而不願意把市政府的土地拿來蓋社宅，5年時間只規劃了1,600戶的這個情形，他還誇口說他達成了目標，所以我想請中央是不是可以規劃一下？在我的看法上，臺中市最少5萬戶的社會住宅是絕對跑不掉，那院長可不可以立刻進行檢討，看看各縣市到底社宅需要幾戶？臺中市1萬4,000戶那個目標，其實那是水準太低、標準太低了！"],["陳院長建仁：我剛才就在跟林部長請教，就是說我們當時是因為蔡總統提出8年社會住宅20萬戶嘛。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，沒有錯。"],["陳院長建仁：直接興建的部分是這樣子，可是未來……那是8年欸，那是未來我們要為年輕人著想、為中低收入戶著想，我們的社會住宅我想最起碼要四、五倍以上才夠啦。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，所以那個是在蔡總統……"],["陳院長建仁：任期的目標。"],["蔡委員其昌：他訂定的目標全國好像是20萬戶的社會住宅……"],["陳院長建仁：8加12。"],["蔡委員其昌：8加12嘛。"],["陳院長建仁：8萬戶是自建嘛……"],["蔡委員其昌：對。"],["陳院長建仁：然後12萬戶是包租代管。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，所以接下來我們在蔡總統這個目標之外，應該要有新的目標，所以臺中市政府並沒有把這樣的目標放進去，而只是現在還在談過去那個8年的目標嘛。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["蔡委員其昌：所以我希望內政部要儘速將未來到底要目標戶多少，像臺中市我認為最少要5萬戶，我認為這個目標是一定要去追、一定要去達成的。","第二個目標就是剛剛部長所講的，臺中市政府、尤其是政府，它的土地的標售對臺中市的地價有定錨的作用，這一次它的底價比周邊所有的土地交易價格大概貴了兩成，所以換言之，我們可預期臺中市政府的土地除非流標，否則的話，如果標出去，換言之，周邊的地主未來賣土地只要跟著政府賣就好了，就漲兩成，漲兩成啦！"],["林部長右昌：至少。"],["蔡委員其昌：最少嘛，最少就漲兩成。"],["林部長右昌：標的時候可能還會有議價。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，我假設算最低標準，用它的底價得標好了，它最少就是告訴大家說，臺中市的土地應該要再漲，要繼續上漲，要讓年輕人跟在臺中市更買不起房子，因為所有的建商很簡單，建商是加工業，他買了土地、做了設計、做了興建，然後最後把它賣掉。所以當土地成本大幅上揚的時候，勢必未來的房價在臺中市又要繼續飆漲，又讓更多的年輕人在臺中市買不起房子，這個其實是很清楚。而定錨作用如果是一般私有土地的業者，政府當然我們只能透過相關的政策跟法規來規範，但最可惡的是政府帶頭做這個事情，這個才是讓人寒心，才會讓人覺得難道我們的臺中市政府、難道盧市長完全沒有把年輕人的想法、年輕人的痛苦、年輕人的期待放在心上嗎？","所以林部長，今天你發了這個提醒文給盧市長，我基本上是肯定的，但是我也知道你發這文，其實我也覺得沒什麼用，我想他民調很高、政治聲望很高，接下來可能是總統的候選人，所以區區一個內政部的部長對他來講是小兒科。雖然我知道你是很善意提醒，我們都希望政府非常用心，中央政府已經非常用心在蓋社宅、非常用心在希望土地不要再飆漲了，所以你做內政部長，做這個工作是必要的，但是我也知道沒有什麼用。","但是我在這裡要提醒內政部，對於居住正義的問題，一方面要跟所有的社會大眾、特別年輕人說清楚，到底誰在蓋社宅？誰在阻擾蓋社宅？或者誰在睡覺不蓋社宅？或者誰裝睡不蓋社宅？我覺得內政部有義務要讓國人同胞、特別讓年輕人知道得很清楚。所以內政部應該要定期公布我們對於社宅推動這個政策到底多久我們會供給多少量、供給的位置到底在哪裡、這是中央蓋的還是地方政府蓋的。我認為我們在社宅政策上面，內政部一定要有標準，這個標準甚至是你手上有的資源跟地方政府未來的配合，都要把這個考核放到裡面去，我覺得這個才是讓社宅這個政策可以推動。","不要忘記，這一次很多的年輕朋友他的選票並不支持民進黨，因為他認為民進黨對於年輕朋友的這些呼聲、他們的期待並沒有做到回應的狀況，所以這一次的這個事件，正是讓大家把那個造妖鏡拿出來，到底中央政府對社宅的態度是什麼？到底每一個地方政府無論它是什麼政黨，它對於社會住宅的態度是什麼？誰真正地在呼應年輕人的期待？我覺得這件事情內政部一定要去做到，否則的話，稀哩呼嚕地大家呼攏一通，我們的市長還說中央都沒蓋半棟，最後發現自己資料錯誤還出來道歉，所以這個就是長期內政部或者中央被抹黑，就是從這個地方來！所以我希望內政部要加油，我們的社宅政策還要再加把勁，要比蔡總統過去8年的時間要蓋得更多，要更加積極回應年輕人的需要，這個是我對你的期待。"],["林部長右昌：是，謝謝委員，我想賴總統他也有訂了新的一個目標，我們會全力來達成。第二個、委員剛剛也特別提到，即便是地方政府蓋的社宅，其實中央政府不管是對土地、對興建的成本，我們都有補助。"],["蔡委員其昌：補助沒有錯，好。"],["林部長右昌：好，謝謝委員。"],["蔡委員其昌：接下來院長，我想毒辣椒粉的事件，我今天早上也看到你發言了，我覺得很清楚嘛！是我們積極在邊境檢查所檢測出來的，我還是覺得我們在手段上面可能要更積極一些，也就是說我們在管理上應該要採取差別化管理，就是我們現在，譬如說光去年來自中國的辣椒粉不合格件數越來越多，去年16件，今年不到2個月就有7件，所以換言之我們不是講中國，是剛好這個事情是中國，特別在食安上面，就是對食品的管理上面，我們一定要差別，就是績優生不要耗費太多的公務人力在處理，但是對於那些成績不好、那些劣等生，常常作怪、常常讓我們臺灣陷入食安的困難、困擾的這些國家或者這一種產品，我們應該要差別地加強檢驗，甚至最嚴重就像我們在檢查現在你的措施嘛，逐批檢驗，這個就是最嚴格的標準。"],["陳院長建仁：而且我們最近還讓21家有不合格的產品的大陸廠商，我們暫停它的入口。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，所以就是差別管理的手段一定要出來，因為我們不可能什麼東西都逐批檢驗，這個是科學，這個也是實務的問題，所以我們一定要有辦法把差別的管理把它做出來，同時不好的我們就要最嚴厲的手段，那好的相對就可以鼓勵，在相關的行政措施上面給予鼓勵，這個是我大概一點小小的建議。"],["陳院長建仁：謝謝。"],["蔡委員其昌：最後我想謝謝院長、謝謝我們的行政團隊對於臺中市的幾個重大交通建設，在2月份之前……"],["陳院長建仁：謝謝委員啦！委員實在是……"],["蔡委員其昌：我很感謝啦！"],["陳院長建仁：給我們很多的指導。"],["蔡委員其昌：我今天特別感謝是因為以前在上面都沒辦法感謝你，因為你知道我這幾年來盯得非常緊。"],["陳院長建仁：是，確實。"],["蔡委員其昌：王部長不知道去我那裡多少次了，歷任部長都到我那個地方，常常幾乎我們都在追這些案子，我在上面沒有機會公開地謝謝，所以今天有機會站在這裡我就要特別表示感謝。但是我們感謝歸感謝，後面還是……它並還不是完工啦！譬如說我們臺中市的捷運藍線，在我的建議底下，我們中央先給它核定，不要讓臺中市政府再繼續抹黑中央，所以中央先核定，地方再對計畫進行修正，我想請問部長，地方政府的修正有沒有時程？什麼時候可以完成捷運藍線的修正？因為不完成修正還是動工不了嘛！"],["王部長國材：跟委員報告，主要在過去有很多的問題，最後的問題是在沙鹿站，就是三個包括鐵路、藍線還有平面沙鹿大橋的問題，這個部分初步的方向，委員有特別說這部分要趕快來進行，所以我們已經討論一個成果，那個成果就是已經叫它放到藍線還有未來山海線的海線裡面……"],["蔡委員其昌：對，沒關係，我其實知道內容，但我的意思是說時間，以前它都在罵中央卡地方的建設，現在中央核定了，我們在等地方什麼時候完成修正，部長。"],["王部長國材：我們是希望越快越好，那如果這個修正……"],["蔡委員其昌：每3個月跟本席報告一次可不可以？"],["王部長國材：好，OK。"],["蔡委員其昌：報告臺中市政府到底什麼時候完成修正，因為捷運藍線大家等著要動啊，等著要趕快完工啊！那它一定要報交通部對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["蔡委員其昌：所以你每3個月告訴我臺中市的進度，我就定期公布，看臺中市要拖到什麼時候才可以把捷運藍線的修正計畫把它做好。其實不只只有沙鹿嘛！其實還有我一直在主張的，我們的第一站就是港務公司大樓跟捷運站的共同開發、共同規劃甚至共構，這個也是修正計畫嘛！"],["王部長國材：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：還有地方政府自己核定到底要在坪頂站或正英站，這個是地方政府核定，這不是你交通部同意的嘛！因為場站的選址是地方的事情，你一定要求它要跟地方做好溝通，否則大家的質疑還在，到底有沒有圖利特定人的這個質疑還一直在，所以這些事情都要緊盯，我沒辦法去臺中市議會質詢，我只能在這裡質詢你，你要緊盯臺中市這些重大建設的發展，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蔡委員其昌質詢，也謝謝陳院長。"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text":"所以內政部應該要定期公布我們對於涉宅推動這個政策到底多久我們會供給多少量供給的位置到底在哪裡這是中央蓋的還是地方政府蓋的我認為我們在涉宅政策上面內政部一定要有標準這個標準甚至是你手上有的資源跟地方政府未來的配合都要把這個考核放到裡面去"},{"start":593.035,"end":608.477,"text":"我覺得這個才是讓涉宰這個政策可以推動不要忘記這一次的很多的年輕朋友他的選票並不支持民進黨因為他認為民進黨對年輕朋友的這些呼聲他們的期待並沒有做到回應的狀況"},{"start":609.707,"end":637.228,"text":"所以這一次的這個事件正是讓大家把那個照妖鏡拿出來到底中央政府對社宅的態度是什麼到底每一個地方政府無論它是什麼政黨它對於社會住宅的態度是什麼誰真正的在呼應年輕人的期待我覺得這件事情內政部一定要去做到否則的話稀哩呼嚕的大家呼嚨一通我們的市長還說中央都沒蓋半棟最後發現自己資料錯誤還出來道歉"},{"start":638.462,"end":663.142,"text":"所以這個就是長期內政部或者中央被抹黑就是從這個地方來所以我希望內政部要加油我們的社宅政策我們還要再加把勁要比蔡總統過去8年的時間要蓋得更多要更加積極回應年輕人的需要這個是我對你的期待是謝謝委員我想那個賴總統他也有定了新的一個目標我們會全力來達成"},{"start":664.303,"end":686.639,"text":"第二個委員剛剛也特別提到即便是地方政府蓋的社宅其實中央政府不管是對土地對興建的成本我們都有補助接下來院長我想那個辣椒粉毒辣椒粉的事件我今天早上也看到你發言了我覺得很清楚是我們積極在邊境檢查所以所檢測出來的"},{"start":688.172,"end":706.705,"text":"我還是覺得說我們在手段上面可能要更積極一些也就是說我們在管理上應該要採取差別化管理我們現在譬如說光去年來自中國的辣椒粉不合格件數越來越多去年16件今年不到兩個月就有7件"},{"start":707.365,"end":732.268,"text":"所以換言之我們不是講中國是剛好這個事情是中國那特別在食安上面就是對食品的管理上面我們一定要差別就是雞優生啊不要耗費太多的公務人力在處理但是對於那些成績不好那些劣等生常常這個作怪常常讓我們台灣陷入食安的這個困難困擾的這個這些國家或者"},{"start":733.127,"end":761.648,"text":"這一種產品我們應該要差別的加強檢驗甚至最嚴重就像我們在檢查現在你的措施逐批檢驗這個就是最嚴格的標準而且我們最近還讓21家有不合格的產品的大陸的廠商我們暫停他的入口所以這個就是差別管理的手段一定要出來因為我們不可能什麼東西都逐批檢驗"},{"start":762.846,"end":789.268,"text":"這個是科學這個也是實務的問題所以我們一定要有辦法把那個差別的管理把它做出來同時不好的我們就要最嚴厲的手段那好的相對就可以鼓勵在相關的這個行政措施上面可以鼓勵這個是我大概一點小小的建議謝謝那最後我想這個謝謝院長謝謝我們的行政團隊對於台中市的重大幾個重大的交通建設在這個"},{"start":793.206,"end":813.051,"text":"謝謝委員這委員實在是給我們很多的指導我今天特別感謝是因為以前在上面都沒辦法感謝你因為你知道我這幾年來盯得非常緊王部長不知道去我那裡多少次了歷任部長都到我那個地方常常幾乎我們都在追這些案子"},{"start":813.732,"end":837.246,"text":"我在上面沒有機會公開的謝謝,所以今天有機會站在這裡,我就要特別表示感謝。但是我們感謝歸感謝,後面他還不是完工。例如說我們台中市捷運南線,在我的建議底下,我們中央先給他核定,不要讓台中市政府再繼續抹黑中央。所以中央先核定,地方再對計畫進行修正。我想請問部長,"},{"start":838.649,"end":863.061,"text":"地方政府的修正有沒有時程?什麼時候可以完成捷運南線的修正?因為不完成修正還是動工不了嗎?主要在過去有很多的問題最後的問題是在沙路站就是三個包括鐵路、南線還有平面沙路大橋的問題這個部分初步的方向委員有特別說這部分要趕快來進行"},{"start":864.501,"end":891.31,"text":"所以我們已經討論一個成果那個成果就是已經叫他放到藍線還有未來的山海線的海線的對沒關係我其實知道內容但我的意思是說時間啊以前他都在罵中央卡地方的建設現在中央核定了我們在等地方什麼時候完成修正我們是希望越快越好那如果這個修正每三個月跟本席報告一次可不可以"},{"start":892.537,"end":916.085,"text":"報告臺中市政府到底什麼時候完成修正因為捷運南線大家等著要動啊等著要趕快完工啊那他一定要報交通部對不對對所以你每三個月告訴我臺中市的進度我就定期公布看臺中市要拖到什麼時候才可以把捷運南線的這個修正計畫把它做好那其實不只只有殺戮嘛其實還有"},{"start":917.466,"end":938.751,"text":"我一直在主張的我們的第一站就是港務公司大樓跟捷運站的共同開發共同規劃甚至共購這個也是修正計畫還有地方政府自己核定到底要在平頂站或正陰站這個是地方政府核定這不是你交通部同意的因為場站的選址是地方的事情"},{"start":968.232,"end":968.975,"text":"謝謝蔡委員其昌質詢。謝謝陳院長。"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}