{"error":false,"id":["149177"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149177,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149177","日期":"2024-03-04","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-26-2","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":2,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-04T09:12:59+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-04T09:23:20+08:00","影片長度":"00:10:21","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2ddd3b23c2de6c3b840cf012038cf3c9e62ff8ba9b0039caa7a6c219c298096853c25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳昭姿","委員發言時間":"09:12:59 - 09:23:20","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院食品安全辦公室、衛生福利部部長、食品藥物管理署就「食安五環執行狀況及蘇丹紅事件處理之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":173,"blocks":[["陳委員昭姿：（9時13分）有請薛部長。"],["主席：請薛部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["陳委員昭姿：10天前我在陳院長的食安報告當中提到，一直都沒有美豬查廠的報告，當時您告訴我有去查廠，也說馬上會把資料提供給本席。但是過了10天之後，我現在連報告都還沒有看到，請問到底衛福部有沒有針對美豬進行查廠？"],["薛部長瑞元：有，這個部分的話，食藥署他們簽報公文，應該是在這一、兩天會到我桌上來，我這邊簽過的話就會上網。"],["陳委員昭姿：瞭解。我要再提的是，王必勝次長提到2022年9月他有赴美查豬肉，但是到目前為止兩種報告我們都沒有看到。我相信基層的公務員他們就有如實寫報告，但是為什麼沒有辦法順利上傳公告呢？因為理論上我們要知道，兩種報告，第一個就是行政機關的內部查廠報告，這個報告應該是要讓立法院或立法委員瞭解的；第二個是公務員出國報告，他們有義務把這個公告上網。到目前為止，第一個，兩種報告都沒有出現，拖延了相當時間，在2022年，已經1年半了，我們都沒有看到任何一篇美豬的查廠報告，這是第一個。第二個，部長，我要請教的是，在這個框框上您可以看到美牛查廠時間是2022年11月，但是比這個更早發生的9月的美豬查廠，11月的查廠報告出來了，9月的查廠報告看不到蹤影。部長，這個美豬查廠的報告到底是有什麼不可告人之處、有什麼難言之隱，還是有哪一些不宜公告的地方嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有啦！"],["陳委員昭姿：為什麼？"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有不宜公告的地方。"],["陳委員昭姿：但是11月的美牛查廠報告都出來了，美豬查廠報告我迄今都等不到！迄今等不到啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：這個我跟委員報告過了。"],["陳委員昭姿：1年半了。"],["薛部長瑞元：我們這一、兩天就會上網。"],["陳委員昭姿：以後這個時間請好好掌握。"],["薛部長瑞元：好。"],["陳委員昭姿：下一張是臺灣的罹癌人數，我們來看看，這個是國健署提供的罹癌人數。罹癌常見的危險因子，我想部長身為醫師，您大概瞭解有好幾項，我今天就鎖定在其中一項叫做暴露於特定化學物質。部長是醫師應該瞭解癌症的發生原因可能很多，據我們目前的瞭解，但您是否同意癌症的發生跟國人長期的飲食習慣是有相當程度的關聯，部長同意嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個關聯性應該是有的，但是委員也知道，癌症發生的原因通常都是多重的危險因子。"],["陳委員昭姿：多元的，我也提出來了。但是我們今天先鎖定這個其中一項。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。所以飲食習慣所占比例跟個別癌症之間的關係的話，權重還是不太一樣。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，但它是其中被列為常見的危險因子之一，暴露於特定化學物質。我們回到今天的主角──蘇丹紅，蘇丹紅已經被國際癌症研究機構列為第三類致癌物。毒物專家顏宗海醫師也提到，蘇丹紅最大的危險就是致癌，而且如果常常吃、經常吃還會傷及腎臟跟肝臟。部長，我要強調的重點是，蘇丹紅的代謝物當中，誠如這篇報告，代謝物當中有好幾項是被列為第二類致癌物，經過代謝後變成第二類致癌物，也就是吃下肚子以後經過代謝，它的致癌性是更高的。所以部長，請問追查有多少蘇丹紅的辣椒粉被國人吃下肚子，您認為重不重要？"],["薛部長瑞元：跟委員報告，這個第三類致癌物本身從動物試驗或者其他方面來看的話是有致癌的可能性，但是對於人類方面，這一個研究是沒有的。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我剛剛提到了第三類致癌物的定義，就是對動物可能出現致癌性，但是對人類沒有。但我強調的，吃下肚子以後經過代謝變成第二類，第二類的意思就是對人類的致癌性是提高的、是存在的，有這個可能性。部長，我強調的是這一個。"],["薛部長瑞元：致癌物本身，有許多本來就是它在人體之內的代謝物是直接致癌啦……"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，這個部分我是非常地瞭解。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員應該……"],["陳委員昭姿：但是它升級了，所以我要強調，追查國人到底吃下了多少量，這個非常重要，因為證明吃下以後的危險性更高。"],["薛部長瑞元：這個我們目前當然是在追查整個進來的總量，以及已經銷售出去的總量。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，謝謝部長。那我們回到保欣，保欣的下游業者重疊性很高，可見這個長期規則性的供應是存在的。我想瞭解的是，為什麼這一份，保欣的下游業者，有部分公司，它的名稱一半部分是被遮蔽？就是為什麼衛福部對於下游廠商部分公開、部分隱匿，請問這個作法是在迴避什麼？在迴避什麼？"],["薛部長瑞元：跟委員報告，這一個部分的話是這樣，比方我們從保欣這邊去追查它的下游廠商。下游廠商的話，我們還需要進入這個……"],["陳委員昭姿：不是，有些是全名，有些是部分遮蔽啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：對，所以我現在要說，這些下游廠商我們還是要去取樣，然後再做檢驗，才能夠確認它接收到的這些產品的確是含有蘇丹紅，在……"],["陳委員昭姿：部長的意思是遮蔽的是還沒有確定嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：在還沒有確定之前，我們會用這樣的圈圈，因為會有更下游的廠商，那更下游的廠商可能會蘇丹紅……"],["陳委員昭姿：但是紅到加粉的毒性已經知道了，也購買啦！同一批次。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，但是它的流向還沒有那麼確定。所以在這一個部分的話，我們還是需要再把它找……"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我覺得這還是有疑慮的，部分遮蔽、部分公開，這個作法其實……"],["薛部長瑞元：如果已經檢驗出來的確是有的，我們就通通公開，名稱就通通公開。"],["陳委員昭姿：但是這整個報告是不清楚的，國人看了這個還是會有很多疑問。","再下來，3月1日又增加了2家業者。我想瞭解，這2家是否在去年被罰的21家中國出口商或製造商的名單之內，是不是在這之內？"],["薛部長瑞元：是。"],["陳委員昭姿：是在之內嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：是。"],["陳委員昭姿：是在之內，那為什麼拖這麼久才對下游的廠商，現在還在寫下游業者刻在調查中……"],["薛部長瑞元：對……"],["陳委員昭姿：從12月到現在？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個跟委員報告，中國那邊的21家是已經確定了，但是這21家……"],["陳委員昭姿：主席，可以再2分鐘嗎？謝謝。"],["薛部長瑞元：這21家的下游……"],["陳委員昭姿：下一張，我瞭解，在這21家名單當中。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["陳委員昭姿：3月1日從保欣倉庫再度搜出三萬多公斤，這個跟衛福部封存的量簡直是數十倍之高。為什麼到去年年中衛福部就知道有摻蘇丹紅的辣椒粉進口到臺灣，你這半年來只有去海關阻擋，那之前進來的量呢？之前進來的量，到底國人吃了多少，為什麼隱瞞不讓國人知道？"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有，這個沒有隱瞞。"],["陳委員昭姿：在海關阻擋，但之前進來的量呢？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，所以現在就是對之前進來的……"],["陳委員昭姿：好。"],["薛部長瑞元：因為之前沒有100%抽批的時候……"],["陳委員昭姿：我為什麼會一直追查這件事，因為我們的食安五環裡面就有清楚的食品雲系可以清查，為什麼不做呢？所以我們在意的不是在海關阻擋，這個動作是對的，但是海關過去進口的量有多少被國人吃下肚子？吃下以後代謝的毒性還更高，這個部分是非常重要。","我知道現在食藥署已經勒令把有問題的食品全部下架，這個週末我也到幾個賣場去看，確實沒有看到這樣的產品了，但是在網路平臺上我們還能看到購買資料在上面，部長、署長，如果要做食安的把關，網路平臺是法外之地嗎？是可以不受食安法的規範嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：當然不是。"],["陳委員昭姿：無論實體的店舖還是網站的平臺，你不能只做半套啊！網站平臺仍然有這個未下架的毒辣粉的零食在出售啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：關於這部分的話，當然網路不是化外之地啦！所以它仍然必須要被……"],["陳委員昭姿：所以是疏忽了，對不對？實體店舖跟網路的部分……"],["薛部長瑞元：不是疏忽，因為網路上面，我們這一些產品沒有辦法藉由網路去……"],["陳委員昭姿：都是責無旁貸、都受食安法規範，謝謝部長、謝謝主席。"],["薛部長瑞元：謝謝。"],["主席：我們非常謝謝陳昭姿委員的質詢，謝謝。","接下來我們請陳菁徽委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":296,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-2","speakers":["王育敏","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","林月琴","涂權吉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","蘇清泉","盧縣一","劉建國","王正旭","楊曜","林淑芬","陳雪生","洪孟楷","謝衣鳯","陳瑩","王鴻薇","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","羅智強","林德福"],"page_start":209,"meetingDate":["2024-03-04"],"gazette_id":"1130601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130601_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院食品安全辦公室、衛生福利部部長、食品藥物管理署就「食安五環執行狀況及蘇丹紅\n事件處理之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130601_00008"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.41346875,"end":10.442843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.746593750000002,"end":11.016593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.25659375,"end":14.712218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.712218750000002,"end":15.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.47159375,"end":20.669093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.090968750000002,"end":38.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.46409375,"end":36.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.89409375,"end":48.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":45.12096875,"end":45.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":46.774718750000005,"end":47.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":48.242843750000006,"end":50.588468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":50.94284375,"end":55.735343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5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但是到目前為止兩種報告我們都沒有看到"},{"start":63.934,"end":85.289,"text":"我相信基層的公務員他們就有如實的寫報告但是為什麼沒有辦法順利的上傳公告呢因為理論上我們要知道兩種報告第一個就是行政機關他的內部查場報告這個報告應該是要讓立法院或立法委員瞭解的那第二個是國人"},{"start":86.35,"end":86.63,"text":"公務員出國報告：陳昭姿"},{"start":109.27,"end":118.856,"text":"在這個框框上您可以看到這個美牛茶場時間是2022年11月但是比這個更早發生的9月的美豬茶場11月的茶場報告出來了9月的茶場報告看不到中營部長"},{"start":131.308,"end":160.908,"text":"到底這個查美牛、美豬茶廠的報告到底是有什麼不可告人之處還有什麼難言之隱還是有哪一些不宜公告的地方嗎為什麼沒有不宜公告的地方但是11月的11月的這個美牛茶廠報告都出來了但是美豬茶廠報告我迄今都等不到啊迄今等不到啊我跟委員報告過了一年半了我們這一兩天就會有上網"},{"start":161.548,"end":189.629,"text":"以後這個時間請好好掌握那下一張是臺灣的罹癌人數我們來看看這個是國健署提供的癌登等的罹癌人數那罹癌常見的危險因子我想部長您身為醫師您大概了解有好幾項那我今天就鎖定在其中一項叫做暴露於特定的"},{"start":190.45,"end":190.87,"text":"部長同意嗎?"},{"start":210.363,"end":219.85,"text":"這個關聯性是應該是有的啦,但是我也知道嘛,這癌症的發生的原因通常都是多危險的。所以飲食習慣所佔的比例跟個別的癌症之間的關係的話,它對全體還是不太一樣。"},{"start":230.937,"end":234.459,"text":"蘇丹紅已經被國際癌症研究機構列為第三類致癌物毒物專家嚴宗海醫師也有提到蘇丹紅最大的危害就是致癌而且如果常常吃、經常吃還會傷及腎臟跟肝臟"},{"start":260.296,"end":277.69,"text":"部長我要強調的重點是蘇丹紅的代謝物當中呈入這篇的報告代謝物當中有好幾項是被列為第二類的致癌物經過代謝後變成第二類的致癌物也就是說"},{"start":278.971,"end":280.233,"text":"請問追查有多少蘇丹紅的辣椒粉被國人吃下肚子您認為重不重要?"},{"start":295.125,"end":312.031,"text":"跟委員報告,這個第三類的致癌物本身就是說從動物試驗或者其他的方面來看的話是有致癌的可能性但是對於人類的方面的這一個研究是沒有的部長部長,我剛剛提到了第三類的致癌物的定義就是說對動物"},{"start":313.371,"end":339.108,"text":"可能有出現這個致癌性但是對人類沒有但是我強調的吃下肚子以後經過代謝變成第二類第二類的意思就是對人類的致癌性是提高的是存在的有這個可能性部長我強調的是這一個致癌物本身有許多本來就是說它在人體室之內的這個代謝部長這個部分我是非常的了解但是它升級了所以我要強調說"},{"start":340.249,"end":356.602,"text":"追查國人到底吃下了多少量這個非常的重要因為證明說吃下以後的危險性更高這我們目前當然是在追查這個整個的進來的總量以及已經銷售出去的總量那我們回到這個新寶"},{"start":360.445,"end":388.194,"text":"新寶的下游業者重疊性很高可見這個長期規則性的供應是存在的那我想了解的是為什麼這一份寶新的下游業者有部分的公司他的名稱是被一半的部分的遮蔽就是為什麼衛福部對於下游廠商部分公開部分隱密請問"},{"start":390.403,"end":409.285,"text":"這個做法是在迴避什麼在迴避什麼跟委員報告這一個部分的話是這樣當我們是比如說我們從保興這邊去追查那它的下游廠商那下游廠商的話我們就去還需要到進入這個不是啊有些是全民啊有些是部分遮蔽啊"},{"start":411.507,"end":434.74,"text":"這些下游的廠商我們還是要去取樣然後再來做檢驗再能夠確認說接收到的這些產品的確是含有蘇丹紅部長的意思是說科幣是還沒有確定嗎?還沒有確定之前我們會用這樣的圈圈因為它會有更下游的廠商但是紅豆加粉的毒性已經知道了?也購買了?同一批次啊?"},{"start":436.621,"end":437.241,"text":"那再再來是這個"},{"start":462.827,"end":489.679,"text":"在3月1號又增加了兩家業者那我想了解這兩家是否在去年被罰的21家中國出口商或製造商的當中的名單之內是不是在這之內是在之內嗎是在之內那為什麼拖這麼久才對下游的廠商現在還在寫下游業者刻在調查中從12月到現在"},{"start":493.095,"end":517.578,"text":"這個該委員報告中國那邊的21家是已經確定的但是這21家我瞭解你在這個23年當中3月1號從新寶倉庫再度收住3萬多公斤這個跟衛福部封存的量簡直是數十倍之高那為什麼到去年年中衛福部就知道"},{"start":518.599,"end":523.151,"text":"有含蘇丹紅辣椒粉進口到台灣你這半年來只有去海關阻擋"},{"start":524.471,"end":548.339,"text":"那之前進來的量呢?之前進來的量,到底國人吃了多少?為什麼隱瞞不讓國人知道?在海關組長,但之前進來的量呢?對,所以現在就是對於之前進來,因為之前沒有100%抽屁的時候我為什麼會一直追查這件事?因為我們的食安五環裡面就有清楚的食品雲系可以清查,為什麼不做呢?"},{"start":548.939,"end":548.999,"text":"陳昭姿"},{"start":563.226,"end":581.121,"text":"我知道現在食藥署已經把熱令有問題的食品全部下架那這個週末我也到幾個賣場去看就是說我確實看到沒有這樣的產品了但是但是網路上在網路平台上我們還看到還有這個購買的這個資料在上面部長署長"},{"start":584.065,"end":602.266,"text":"如果要做食安的法官網路平台是法外之地嗎?是可以不受食安法的規範嗎?無論實體的店鋪還是網站的平台你不能只做半套啊網站平台仍然有這個未下架的毒辣粉的零食在出售啊"},{"start":604.135,"end":617.685,"text":"這部分的話當然網路不是花壞之地所以他仍然必須所以是疏忽了對不對實體店鋪跟這個網路的部分因為網路上面我們的這一些產品沒有辦法進入網路去好 謝謝部長 謝謝主席好 謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}