{"error":false,"id":["149187"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149187,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149187","日期":"2024-03-04","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-36-2","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":2,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-04T09:29:59+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-04T09:44:07+08:00","影片長度":"00:14:08","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2dddc15c2abf3fbf547a2dd7be9832461c05f8ba9b0039caa7a65b99e55e91f9650e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"09:29:59 - 09:44:07","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長列席說明立法計畫，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":115,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時30分）秘書長好。"],["吳秘書長三龍：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：我想請教一下秘書長，對於現在檢警不管是在查緝毒品、查緝私菸、追蹤組織犯罪或是在追蹤詐騙集團的時候，他們用GPS追蹤定位器，這樣的證據蒐集有沒有證據能力？"],["吳秘書長三龍：目前實務上就這一部分，涉及到個案，他會就個案情形來做一些認定。"],["黃委員國昌：我直接對秘書長講，這不是針對個案的情形來做認定，根本就沒有證據能力嘛！檢警用GPS辦案，根本沒有證據能力，最高法院都有判決了，你今天還坐在這邊說是個案認定。我們海巡署的同仁非常辛苦，查緝私菸，用GPS去追蹤那些走私集團的行蹤，後來被判刑耶！最高法院在判決裡面說GPS去追蹤行蹤是違法的，不僅沒有證據能力，還有妨害秘密罪的問題。我的問題就來了，最高法院自己都講了，GPS辦案在刑事偵查上面有其必要，欠缺法源的依據，應該要趕快修法，那到目前為止，從這個案子出來已經幾年了，司法院為什麼提的立法計畫裡面，針對刑事訴訟法的這個部分，應該要補強它的證據能力，完全沒有任何立法計畫？請秘書長說明。"],["吳秘書長三龍：委員的提示很重要……"],["黃委員國昌：這不是我的提示，這是最高法院法官的提示啦！"],["吳秘書長三龍：這一部分，修法方面我們會請刑事廳儘速來研議。"],["黃委員國昌：你說你會請刑事廳儘速研擬，什麼時候要提出來？什麼時候要提出來？"],["吳秘書長三龍：因為一般修法會有一定的流程。"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！我剛就秀給秘書長了，你看一下，這是最高法院106年台上字第3788號刑事判決，判決裡面最高法院的法官就寫得很清楚，要趕快推動修法，不然我們那些檢警人員去查緝私菸，結果最後被依妨害秘密罪辦耶！秘書長，你不會覺得很離譜嗎？","我進一步問，從1992年到現在，刑事訴訟法針對強制處分的部分修法修了幾次？關於GPS、M化車等等科技偵查的部分推動修法修了幾次？秘書長，你知不知道？不好意思，我時間有限，趕快針對問題回答。"],["吳秘書長三龍：關於剛剛委員所提示科技偵查還有保障法這一部分，其實我們刑事廳都已經有相當的準備了。"],["黃委員國昌：都已經有準備了，什麼時候提出來？我直接跟秘書長講，1992年到現在，刑事訴訟法關於強制處分的部分，司法院修了快20次了；跟科技偵查有關係的，秘書長，你知道幾次嗎？零次，零次！現在大家都在期待要推科技偵查法，但問題是科技偵查法的條文，秘書長，你看過沒有？"],["吳秘書長三龍：因為科技偵查及保障法是屬於法務部主管的法律。"],["黃委員國昌：我就知道你會這樣說，你說科技偵查法是法務部主管的，你實際去看裡面的條文，每一個條文都是在處理刑事證據能力跟刑事強制處分的問題，為什麼會淪落到法務部的手上？司法院不積極嘛！自掃門前雪，覺得這跟司法院沒有關係嘛！但問題是你去看科技偵查法裡面的條文，就像德國是全部都規定在刑事訴訟法裡啊！為什麼今天法務部要推動特別法？因為刑事訴訟法不修嘛！司法院不動嘛！你剛剛說你們科技偵查的條文都已經準備好了，什麼時候可以提出來？今天會後提供給我，你們到底準備了哪些條文出來，可以嗎？剛剛秘書長說都準備好了嘛，等一下會後提供給我，可以嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這一部分我請我們刑事廳來說明。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，因為我沒有時間聽你在那邊拖，會後請秘書長就你們已經準備好的條文提出來給我。","下一個問題，法官跟法官關說，針對個案進行關說，請問一下秘書長，在我國構成什麼罪？蕭仰歸、高明哲兩個人，一個人跟人家關說，一個接受關說還進一步去關說，在我國刑事、司法上現在構成什麼罪？"],["吳秘書長三龍：關說有一定的規定……"],["黃委員國昌：什麼規定？講出來。"],["吳秘書長三龍：這個當然是個案啦……"],["黃委員國昌：我跟你講，這不是審判中的個案，這已經game over了、已經決定了，蕭仰歸什麼時候去跟高明哲關說、高明哲什麼時候去跟另外的女法官關說，轟動臺灣社會、震驚司法界的事情，你怎麼看起來完全不知道啊？剛剛你說有一定的規範可以處理，什麼規範？講出來給大家聽聽。"],["吳秘書長三龍：因為這個會涉及到妨礙公正罪的問題……"],["黃委員國昌：妨礙司法公正罪，現在有妨礙司法公正罪嗎？現在有嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：那……"],["黃委員國昌：我現在就具體問你啦，蕭仰歸也好、高明哲也好，這2個人哪一個人受到什麼刑事處罰？有嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：那因為這個有時候涉及個案一些證據事實認定的問題……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有什麼個案證據事實啦，來！我跟秘書長講，怎麼你當秘書長對於這些跟司法院業務這麼密切相關的看起來這麼不熟啊？蕭仰歸、高明哲2個公懲會都已經認定確定了，事實已經認定完畢了，這個案子也終結了耶！一個休職6年、一個降2級改敘，大家看不下去啊！法官關說司法這麼嚴重的事情，一個休職6個月、一個降2級改敘，秘書長，你看得下去嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：因為懲戒跟刑事案件的這個……"],["黃委員國昌：我等一下再跟你講刑事案件啦，就懲戒的部分，你看得下去嗎？你覺得法官跟法官關說受到這種懲戒處分，你認同嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：因為現在懲戒法院也已經都法院化了，那涉及個案如何認定，這個屬於個案……"],["黃委員國昌：你連一個基本的態度都沒有，司法院的秘書長應該有什麼態度？法官跟法官關說絕不寬貸，還有資格當法官喔？你為什麼當個司法院的秘書長連這個基本態度都講不出來啊？有這麼困難嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這個既然有些涉及到個案在處理啦，個案處……"],["黃委員國昌：我剛剛都已經跟你講這個案子已經game over了，這不是繫屬中的個案啊！"],["吳秘書長三龍：現在他還是會有後續的案件嘛，有後續案件，那……"],["黃委員國昌：我直接請教秘書長，因為我非常震驚啊，你對於司法不熟到這種程度可以當司法院秘書長，不好意思啦，吳法官，您是法界的前輩，我這樣說雖然很失禮，但是人民對於司法的期待絕對不僅僅只有這個樣子。請問司法院贊不贊成定不法關說罪？贊不贊成？法官關說法官、政治人物去關說法官應不應該接受刑事處罰？"],["吳秘書長三龍：以我們目前的……"],["黃委員國昌：現在我在問你的是立法政策喔，現行法沒有規定啦，你不熟，然後在那邊講說什麼要看其他法規規定。我作為一個法律人，我負責任地跟你講，現行對於關說司法沒有刑事處罰的規定，period、句號！我現在是問立法政策的問題，關說法官應不應該構成刑事犯罪，你作為司法院秘書長的態度是什麼？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這個關說當然不允許關說啊。"],["黃委員國昌：對，應不應該做刑事處罰？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這個我們當然……這個整個……因為這個已經不容許關說了嘛，至於說要……"],["黃委員國昌：不容許關說，奇怪，你講話怎麼不像法律人？不容許關說，請問法律效果是什麼？"],["吳秘書長三龍：當然涉及必要修法或立法，那另外一個層次的問題……"],["黃委員國昌：所以我現在在問嘛，你作為司法院的秘書長，司法院贊不贊成定不法關說罪？怎麼一個基本的問題要問這麼久啊？"],["吳秘書長三龍：當然我們尊重這個……這個是不允許關說啦，必要……"],["黃委員國昌：當然不允許關說嘛，問題可笑的事情是現在關說司法就沒處罰嘛，你不會覺得很荒謬嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這個有必要的話，那就來科以刑事責任。"],["黃委員國昌：所以你贊成科以刑事責任嘛？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這個已經社會在變嘛，需要的話那當然就……"],["黃委員國昌：好，來，我繼續問，社會上有另外一個受不了的事情，針對重大的貪污犯，判得慢、跑得快、坐牢坐得短。好，我現在先具體的請教，林益世貪污的案件2012年10月起訴，到現在判決還沒有確定，審判拖延了這麼久，針對這樣子審判的效率，秘書長你滿意不滿意？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這個要妥適審判，這個是……"],["黃委員國昌：這個有符合妥適審判的理念嗎？有嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這個當然我們一定要努力嘛。"],["黃委員國昌：那你如何努力，來，具體跟大家講你如何努力？"],["吳秘書長三龍：我想法院處理的這個過程一定要接受檢驗嘛，一定要接受檢驗……"],["黃委員國昌：是，那你剛剛說要努力嘛，如何努力？來，跟大家說明一下。"],["吳秘書長三龍：當然在司法院方面，我們會宣示請法院要儘速來妥適處理。"],["黃委員國昌：你說要請法院儘速處理嘛，好，現在他以法官沒有幫他聲請憲法法庭解釋為理由聲請法官迴避，我的問題很具體喔，聲請法官迴避依照刑事訴訟法第十八條第二款的規定，要停止訴訟程序嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這個就又變成涉及個案啦。"],["黃委員國昌：這不會涉及個案，我現在是在請教你刑事訴訟法，那個後面刑事廳的廳長上來協助，好不好？依照刑事訴訟法第十八條第二款，聲請法官迴避要停止訴訟程序嗎？"],["李廳長釱任：不用。"],["黃委員國昌：是不用嘛，那我的問題來了，為什麼他一聲請迴避了以後，高院的法官不開庭就改庭期，他要這樣幹喔？現在是刑事庭的法官連刑事訴訟法怎麼規定都忘了嗎？透過聲請法官迴避來拖延訴訟程序，不知道嗎？依照刑事訴訟法的規定要停止訴訟程序嗎？需要嗎？"],["李廳長釱任：不需要。"],["黃委員國昌：不需要，他為什麼改庭期？他為什麼配合拖延訴訟程序？這個是剛剛秘書長講的，說這不對，要反省、要檢討、要儘速處理，你們具體個案操作上就不是這樣嘛，講空話！講空話！","最後，主席，不好意思，再1分鐘就好，我把今天最重要的問題……"],["主席：麻煩最後1分鐘，因為還有委員……"],["黃委員國昌：好，最後1分鐘，聲請法官迴避的法定程序，有應自行迴避嘛、有聲請迴避嘛，請問我們現行的制度有一個迴避叫做施壓迴避嗎？有嗎？"],["李廳長釱任：沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：法官可以施壓另外一個法官自己去迴避嗎？秘書長請回答。"],["吳秘書長三龍：當然不可以。"],["黃委員國昌：當然不可以，如果有怎麼辦？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這個有些要涉及事實認定或……"],["黃委員國昌：好，沒有關係，我今天在司法及法制委員會公開具體檢舉喔，這個金融重犯鍾文智很了不起啊！犯了大罪了以後，到立法院裡面請立委幫他修證交法要脫罪，被揭發了以後這個計謀沒有得逞，結果他幹了什麼事情？來，在他重審要拖延訴訟程序、一再聲請法官迴避喔，高院也駁回、最高法院也駁回，都確定了，結果我今天要檢舉的一個問題，行政庭的庭長可以去施壓承審法官，要他上簽自請迴避嗎？"],["主席：好，1分鐘到了，因為我們後面還有很多委員。"],["黃委員國昌：好，秘書長，這個案子我今天在這邊公開檢舉，請司法院回去徹查，徹查以後的結果不用跟我講，跟社會大眾交代、跟社會大眾交代！你剛剛說了，法官不可以施壓法官自請迴避喔，如果有這樣子的事情的時候，司法院該怎麼辦？大家都在看，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員。","我們現在請登記第2位的沈委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":384,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-2","speakers":["吳宗憲","翁曉玲","黃國昌","沈發惠","鍾佳濱","柯建銘","羅智強","莊瑞雄","林思銘","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","謝龍介","陳俊宇","鄭天財Sra 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針對個案進行關說來請問一下秘書長 在我國構成什麼罪?相仰歸該名者兩個人 一個個人家關說 一個接受關說 還進一步的去關說在我國刑事司法上面現在構成什麼罪?"},{"start":312.704,"end":338.085,"text":"這個就是在有關的這個關說他應該在有一定的規定什麼規定講出來就是說這個涉及這個當然是個案啦個案我跟你講這不是審判中的個案這已經get over了已經決定了蕭永光什麼時候去跟高明哲關說高明哲什麼時候去跟另外一個女法官關說"},{"start":339.754,"end":340.575,"text":"防礙司法公正罪"},{"start":362,"end":369.913,"text":"現在有嗎?我現在就具體問你啦蕭養規也好 高明哲也好 這兩個人哪一個人受到什麼形式處罰 有嗎?"},{"start":372.714,"end":392.646,"text":"那因為這個有時候涉及個案他一些政績事實認定的問題為什麼政績和政績事實啊來來來我跟秘書長講怎麼你當秘書長對於這些跟司法院業務這麼密切相關的怎麼看起來這麼不熟啊蕭永規高明哲兩個工程會都已經認定確定了事實已經認定完畢了這個案子也終結了"},{"start":398.188,"end":423.711,"text":"一個休職6年一個降二級改序大家看不下去啊法官關說司法這麼嚴重的事情一個休職6個月一個降二級改序秘書長你看得下去嗎這個因為懲戒跟刑事他的刑事案件他的這個我等一下再跟你講刑事案件啦就懲戒的部分你看得下去嗎"},{"start":425.595,"end":452.057,"text":"你覺得法官跟法官關說受到這種懲戒處分你認同嗎因為現在在懲戒法院他也已經都法院化了那涉及個案他如何認定這個屬於個案你連一個基本的態度都沒有司法院的秘書長應該有什麼態度法官跟法官關說絕不寬戴還有資格當法官喔"},{"start":453.527,"end":471.278,"text":"你為什麼當一個司法院的秘書長連這個基本態度都講不出來啊?有這麼困難嗎?這個...這個既然他有...有些他涉及到個案在...在處理啦齁...個案...我剛剛都已經跟你講這個案子已經GAME OVER了這不是信訴中的個案啦"},{"start":476.448,"end":501.468,"text":"我直接請教秘書長阿因為我非常震驚阿你對於司法不熟到這種程度可以當司法院秘書長不好意思阿無法官你是法界的前輩我這樣說雖然很失禮但是人民對於司法的期待絕對不僅僅只有這個樣子請問司法院贊不贊成訂不法官說罪"},{"start":502.779,"end":530.846,"text":"站不站成法官關說法官政治人物去關說法官應不應該接受刑事處罰現在我在問你的是立法政策喔現行法沒有規定啊你不熟然後在那邊講說什麼要看其他法規規定我作為一個法律人我負責任的跟你講現行對於關說司法沒有刑事處罰的規定period句號我現在是問立法政策的問題"},{"start":532.526,"end":541.732,"text":"關說法官應不應該構成刑事犯罪?你作為司法院秘書長的態度是什麼?那這個關說當然不允許關說阿對!應不應該做刑事處罰?那這個齁那這個我們當然這個整個因為這個已經不容許關說了嘛阿至於說要科...不容許關說?奇怪你講話怎麼不像法律人阿不容許關說請問法律效果是什麼?"},{"start":560.543,"end":587.058,"text":"那當然涉及要必要修法或立法那另外一個層次的問題所以我現在在問嘛你作為司法院的秘書長司法院這麼贊成定不法關說罪怎麼一個基本的問題要混這麼久啊那當然我們我們尊重這個這個是不允許關說啦必要當然不允許關說嘛問題是可笑的事情現在關說司法就沒處罰嘛你不會覺得很荒謬嗎"},{"start":588.342,"end":594.43,"text":"所以你贊成可以行事責任嗎?好啦我繼續問齁"},{"start":605.354,"end":627.151,"text":"另外一個受不了的事情針對重大的貪污犯看得慢跑得快坐牢坐得短我現在先具體的請教零一四貪污的案件2012年10月起訴到現在判決還沒有確定審判拖延了這麼久針對這樣子審判的效率秘書長你滿意不滿意"},{"start":629.811,"end":646.025,"text":"這個要妥適審判這個是有符合妥適審判的理念嗎有嗎那這個當然我們一定要努力嘛好那你如何努力來具體跟大家講你如何努力那這個我想這個在"},{"start":647.133,"end":661.391,"text":"在法院他處理這個過程一定要接受檢驗嘛一定要接受檢驗是那你剛剛說要努力嘛如何努力來跟大家說明一下當然在司法院方面啦我們會先是就是請法院要進士來"},{"start":665.956,"end":680.591,"text":"現在他以法官沒有幫他申請憲法法庭解釋為理由申請法官迴避我的問題很具體喔申請法官迴避依照刑事訴訟法18條第二款的規定要停止訴訟程序嗎"},{"start":682.782,"end":707.579,"text":"那這個這個就又變成涉及個案啦這不會涉及個案我現在是在請教你刑事訴訟法那個後面刑事廳的廳長上來協助好不好依照刑事訴訟法18條第2款申請法官迴避要停止訴訟程序嗎是不用嘛那我的問題來了為什麼他一申請迴避了以後高院的法官不開庭就改庭期可以這樣幹喔"},{"start":710.834,"end":739.134,"text":"像是刑事庭的法官連刑事訴訟法怎麼規定都忘了嗎?透過申請法官迴避來拖延訴訟程序不知道嗎?依照刑事訴訟法的規定要停止訴訟程序嗎?需要嗎?不需要他為什麼改停棋?他為什麼要拖延訴訟程序?這個是剛秘書長講的說這不對要反省要檢討要盡速處理你們具體個案操作上就不是這樣嘛講空話"},{"start":741.787,"end":759.855,"text":"講空話最後那個主席不好意思再一分鐘就好我把今天最重要的問題麻煩最後一分鐘好最後一分鐘齁申請法官迴避的法定程序有因字型迴避嘛有申請迴避嘛請問我們線型的制度有一個迴避叫做施壓迴避嗎有嗎法官可以施壓另外一個法官字型就迴避嗎秘書長請回答"},{"start":768.646,"end":790.056,"text":"那當然不可以阿當然不可以阿如果要怎麼辦這個有些要涉及事實認定或政法沒有關係我今天在司法法制委員會公開具體檢舉喔這個驚人重犯中文字很了不起阿犯了大罪了以後到立法院裡面來請立委幫他修正交法要脫罪"},{"start":791.807,"end":807.894,"text":"結果被揭發了以後這個計謀沒有得逞結果他幹了什麼事情來在他審審要拖延訴訟程序一再申請法官迴避高院也駁回最高法院也駁回都確定了"},{"start":809.134,"end":833.865,"text":"結果我今天要檢舉的一個問題 行政庭的庭長可以去施壓陳審法官 要他上圈自請迴避嗎好 那個就一分鐘到了是不是因為我們後面還有很多委員好 秘書長 這案子我今天在這邊公開檢舉請司法院回去徹查 徹查以後的結果不用跟我講 跟社會大眾交代"},{"start":834.938,"end":836.52,"text":"立法院第1屆第2會期司法及法制委員會議"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}