{"error":false,"id":["149192"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149192,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149192","日期":"2024-03-04","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-36-2","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":2,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-04T09:44:09+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-04T09:57:15+08:00","影片長度":"00:13:06","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2ddd68da755c481a99d12dd7be9832461c05f8ba9b0039caa7a6a7f691524d59037b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈發惠","委員發言時間":"09:44:09 - 09:57:15","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長列席說明立法計畫，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":193,"blocks":[["沈委員發惠：（9時44分）謝謝主席。首先，請教吳秘書長。"],["吳秘書長三龍：委員好。"],["沈委員發惠：秘書長好。我們的國民法官法從去年1月1號開始實施到現在已經超過1年、一年多了，是不是能夠請秘書長說明一下國民法官法上路一年多以後目前實施的概況？它的狀況到底是怎麼樣？簡單講一下、做個簡單的評論。"],["吳秘書長三龍：就去年112年開始實施，一共收了108件，到目前……"],["沈委員發惠：審結了16件？"],["吳秘書長三龍：審結16件，到今年累計這樣一共有124件，根據中正大學所做的調查，到目前為止是認為滿意度有70%啦。"],["沈委員發惠：好，這個是滿意度的部分，那在這整個過程裡面，當然國民法官法實施對我們整個司法系統來講是一個新的運作，但是對一般國民來講，它也是一個新的經驗、一種新的義務，在實施的1年裡面，有沒有民眾被選任為國民法官但是他因為沒有正當理由拒絕而被罰鍰的，有沒有？"],["吳秘書長三龍：目前沒有。"],["沈委員發惠：目前沒有，好。我們開始實施國民法官法之後，過去我們本來評估大概1年國民法官的相關案件會有300件，對不對？我們原本評估有300件，過去1年的結果只有108件，為什麼？為什麼它會比預估的狀況少？是因為符合第五條的案件少呢？還是因為第六條排除的案件多？是什麼樣的狀況？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這其中有一部分是涉及檢察官他很慎重來面對整個制度，所以也會影響他們起訴的節奏跟時間，因為這個畢竟還是要檢察官起訴過來。"],["沈委員發惠：也就是說，秘書長你的意思是說，之所以比預期少是因為我們這個新制上路之後，檢察官在起訴上面比較保守？"],["吳秘書長三龍：他們一定很謹慎地來面對，所以整個包括證據的蒐集，他們一定是很謹慎啦！"],["沈委員發惠：108件是統計到今天為止有108件嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：到今天是124件，去年有108件。"],["沈委員發惠：我們不要講到124件，在去年、第1年度的108件裡面，我們司法院有沒有檢討在國民法官法實施之後的這1年裡面有什麼樣的問題需要改進的，有沒有？我們自己有沒有檢討？社會有檢討，你們自己有沒有檢討？"],["吳秘書長三龍：我們都有評估委員會。"],["沈委員發惠：我知道，評估委員會的部分我等一下再跟你溝通，我現在是說司法院自己，秘書長你個人對於實施這1年有什麼樣的評論？"],["吳秘書長三龍：因為加入我們民眾多元的意見之後……"],["沈委員發惠：有什麼樣的問題？"],["吳秘書長三龍：就是說讓……"],["沈委員發惠：有什麼需要檢討的部分？"],["吳秘書長三龍：當然這裡面一定有它的優缺點。"],["沈委員發惠：對，我現在就要問，我不要講說你們這個評估委員會的評估報告，以秘書長你個人作為一個法律人你的瞭解，在實施這1年裡面有什麼樣的缺點？有什麼樣的問題？"],["吳秘書長三龍：因為這個件數畢竟還沒有那麼多，所以有時候它整個……"],["沈委員發惠：秘書長，這樣子啦！社會上在這1年實施之後有幾個評論，大家對國民法官法實施之後的問題有很多的檢討，比較主要的大概是兩個方向的檢討，一個就是量刑傾向，就是實施國民法官法，他下去參與刑事審判之後，在量刑傾向上會有所改變，就是說因為國民跟過去一般專業的法官對於量刑的心理標準可能不同，因此他在整個量刑傾向上可能有所改變，這是一般社會檢討的第1點；第2點，在國民法官參與審判的過程裡面，辯護人的角色更加重要，而這個辯護人的角色，一般的執業律師他當然是沒有問題，但是你遇到公設辯護人或是約聘辯護人的時候，他在國民參與審判的案件裡面，他的表現可能就沒有符合大家認為說在這樣國民參審的過程裡面，這個辯護人應該扮演的角色，或者他的量能也不足啦！這部分我們司法院有什麼樣的改進跟檢討？"],["吳秘書長三龍：我們就是……"],["沈委員發惠：就兩個問題來講，請儘快，因為時間的關係。"],["吳秘書長三龍：量刑輕重有時候也涉及個案……"],["沈委員發惠：對，當然每一個都涉及個案，我現在是說這個是社會上大家的看法，因為國民參審了，一般國民對於這個法感情上面，他在量刑傾向上跟過去……這個簡單的統計就可以看出來，他跟過去法官量刑的傾向整個有所改變，這部分在經過1年之後，我們司法院有什麼樣的因應之道？"],["吳秘書長三龍：我們會提供一些參考的量刑因素、因子，儘量提供一些……"],["沈委員發惠：怎麼樣提供？具體講是怎麼樣提供？"],["吳秘書長三龍：就是我們會儘量透過現在AI的輔助系統，儘量蒐集相關的、有關類型的一些量刑刑度……"],["沈委員發惠：提供給國民法官參考？參考過去類似案件的量刑統計？"],["吳秘書長三龍：對。"],["沈委員發惠：讓他們在量刑上不會有過度的傾向？"],["吳秘書長三龍：是，就是參考。另外，在辯護人能量……"],["沈委員發惠：這個具體……你們目前有這樣做嗎？現在已經有提供給……從什麼時候開始提供了？"],["吳秘書長三龍：就是先前都有提供了，當然……"],["沈委員發惠：從第一個案件開始就有提供？"],["吳秘書長三龍：就有提供。"],["沈委員發惠：所以這不是改善啊！你們過去有提供的狀況還是這樣，所以這怎麼會是改善的方法呢？"],["吳秘書長三龍：當然之前提供的有些資料可能沒有那麼……我們會再更完整、更新……"],["沈委員發惠：秘書長，你講的這個很抽象啦！什麼更完整、更新，過去從第一個案件開始你們就有提供國民法官這些相關的資料，到現在經過1年之後，大家認為有這樣的問題之後，你們有什麼改善之道？你說我還是提供資料，這個滿奇怪的。"],["吳秘書長三龍：我們會儘量提供這方面的參考案例。"],["沈委員發惠：辯護量能不足的部分，你們有什麼樣的改善之道？"],["吳秘書長三龍：就是說我們跟法扶基金會，請他們那邊要有專門的法扶律師來處理這方面的案件，另外在……"],["沈委員發惠：不是、不是、不是，秘書長，你有沒有需要協助？有沒有需要協助？"],["吳秘書長三龍：我們刑事廳對國民法官這一部分，廳長對這一部分也有很深入的研究。"],["沈委員發惠：李廳長，我剛剛所提的問題你能不能……"],["李廳長釱任：是。"],["沈委員發惠：就是有關辯護量能的部分。"],["李廳長釱任：謝謝委員的垂詢，剛剛委員提到了民間所反映的2個問題，第一個是辯護量能不足的問題，還有量刑傾向變動的問題。"],["沈委員發惠：對。"],["李廳長釱任：事實上，我們刑事廳在國民法官法實施週年記者會已經有跟各界報告過了，就辯護量能不足的部分，我們有透過增設所謂的約聘辯護人，我們會採改所謂的通譯的員額，全國增加11位約聘辯護人。"],["沈委員發惠：全國增加11位約聘……"],["李廳長釱任：再增加11位約聘辯護人，因應相關的量能。"],["沈委員發惠：我知道，這個部分我知道，你們的記者會我有看。"],["李廳長釱任：我們會給約聘辯護人相當的訓練，包括……"],["沈委員發惠：好，那我現在問你，有關你說的增設11個約聘辯護人的公開甄選，原本的報名時間是到2月15號截止，現在又延到3月6號，為什麼延？"],["李廳長釱任：我們延的原因是因為剛好在2月期間……"],["沈委員發惠：報名人數不足？"],["李廳長釱任：不是，因為在2月期間剛好是過年那段時間，大概有一、兩個禮拜的時間，有相關律師想報名，可能他的相關資料就準備不足，所以我們評估之後把它延到3月6號，到目前報名的人數還沒有完全確定。"],["沈委員發惠：多少？"],["李廳長釱任：目前還沒有完全確定，目前知道已經有11位報名了。"],["沈委員發惠：我們要錄取11位，只有11位報名？"],["李廳長釱任：但是報名目前還沒有截止。"],["沈委員發惠：2月15號之前有幾個人報名？"],["李廳長釱任：8位。"],["沈委員發惠：8位？"],["李廳長釱任：對。"],["沈委員發惠：報名不足，所以你們延嘛！就是這樣不是嗎？"],["李廳長釱任：事實上也是我們考慮到春節期間休假的關係，所以我們……"],["沈委員發惠：春節期間又不是突然發生休假的狀況，又不是本來沒有要休假，結果現在變休假。"],["李廳長釱任：這個部分我們也在相關一些薪資級距的部分，我們也適當的調高薪資，讓約聘……"],["沈委員發惠：這個約聘辯護人，第一個，他只是我們剛剛所講的辯護量能不足其中之一端。"],["李廳長釱任：是，這是輔助性的，真正的辯護應該還是回歸到律師市場，或者是法扶基金會的……就我們所知道的，法律扶助基金會現在成立了刑事辯護中心……"],["沈委員發惠：時間到了，最後再請問一下，有關我們擔任國民法官的國民，過去原本就有這樣的評估，確實也有發生這樣的狀況，就是對擔任國民法官的國民之後他的心理狀況的影響，有提供心理的輔導，我知道有的地方法院有提供，但是你們現在全部的地方法院都有提供相關心理方面的輔導嗎？"],["李廳長釱任：有關於這部分，我們提供完整的心理方面的輔導，就在審前之前，我們做心理健康的測驗。"],["沈委員發惠：每一個分院都有？"],["李廳長釱任：是，每個分院都有。"],["沈委員發惠：最後，剛剛有提到成效評估，1年要成效評估，現在已經超過1年了，我們的成效評估要什麼時候出來？"],["李廳長釱任：我們報告預計從3月份，一般的認知報告已經先出來了，預計在9月……"],["沈委員發惠：9月？"],["李廳長釱任：我們3月份陸續有幾個成效評估簡要報告會出來，最終在9月份會把整年度的簡要報告出來，以上。"],["沈委員發惠：國民法官法第一百零五條規定得很清楚，它就是每年就前一年度制度之成效提出評估報告，你們要到拖到9月才要出來？"],["李廳長釱任：因為我們的報告大概會有差不多四大冊，我們3月份已經有最初的一般民眾認知報告已經先出來，我們陸陸續續會再出來，6月份也會再出來一部分。"],["沈委員發惠：好。"],["李廳長釱任：最終在9月份全部會出來，以上。"],["沈委員發惠：這個部分我還有很多問題要請教。"],["李廳長釱任：是。"],["沈委員發惠：這個部分我看未來我們還有機會，在會後我再來請教李廳長。"],["李廳長釱任：好，謝謝委員。"],["沈委員發惠：關於這個部分，畢竟是國家新實施的一個制度，實施1年之後這個評估報告特別重要，我們未來會看到的問題在過去1年大概就呈現了。"],["李廳長釱任：相關的資料我們都蒐集得非常細。"],["沈委員發惠：我希望司法院這邊能夠更用心針對這些……"],["李廳長釱任：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝沈委員。","我們請登記第3位的莊委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":384,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-2","speakers":["吳宗憲","翁曉玲","黃國昌","沈發惠","鍾佳濱","柯建銘","羅智強","莊瑞雄","林思銘","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","謝龍介","陳俊宇","鄭天財Sra 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一百零八件裡面我們在檢討我們司法院有沒有檢討說在這個公共法案法實施之後這一年裡面這裡面有什麼樣的問題需要改進的有沒有我們自己有沒有檢討"},{"start":218.515,"end":241.659,"text":"社會有檢討你們有沒有檢討我們都有評估委員會我知道我知道評估委員會的部分我等一下跟你溝通我現在是說我們自己司法院以這個秘書長你個人你對於這個實施的這一年你有什麼樣的評論因為這個加注我們民眾多元的意見之後會那有什麼樣的問題就是說讓有什麼需要檢討的部分"},{"start":245.785,"end":259.574,"text":"那我們當然齁這裡面一定有他的優缺點對我現在就要問說以我不要講說你們這個評估委員會的評估報告以這個秘書長你個人的的的做一個法律人你的了解"},{"start":261.004,"end":280.21,"text":"有什麼樣的缺點在實施這一年裡面有什麼樣的問題應該也因為這個件數畢竟還沒有那麼多嘛所以有時候他整個這樣子啦社會上大概都就是說在這一年實施之後再有幾個評論大家對這個國民法案法實施之後的問題有很多的檢討大概比較"},{"start":287.372,"end":297.216,"text":"主要的大概是兩個方向檢討一個就是說量刑方面的傾向由國民法官下去參與刑事審判之後他的量刑上面他的傾向會有所改變"},{"start":311.497,"end":337.257,"text":"就是說因為國民他跟過去一般專業的法官他對於量刑的心理標準可能不同因此他在整個量刑心上面可能有所改變這是一般社會檢討的第一點第二點就是說在國民法官參與審判的過程裡面你這個辯護人的角色更加重要"},{"start":338.376,"end":363.956,"text":"那這個辯護人角色一般的這個職業律師他當然是沒有問題但是你遇到這個公設辯護人或是約聘辯護人的時候他在這個國民審判法的案件裡面他的表現就可能就沒有符合大家認為說在這樣國民參審的過程裡面這個辯護人應該扮演的角色或是他的量能也不足啦這部分我們司法院有什麼樣的改進跟檢討"},{"start":365.049,"end":383.676,"text":"我們就是兩個問題在講而且盡快時間的關係就是這個這個兩行輕重齁因為有時候也涉及個案啦那他一定都涉及當然每一個都涉及個案我現在是說因為這個是這個是社會上面大家的看法啦齁因為你國民參審的"},{"start":384.716,"end":402.561,"text":"一般國民對於這個法感情上面他在量刑上面他的傾向跟過去這個簡單的統計就可以看出來他跟過去的這個法官量刑的這個傾向整個有所改變這部分我們司法院有什麼樣的在經過一年之後有什麼樣的因應之道"},{"start":403.41,"end":425.182,"text":"我們會提供一些參考的一些良性的因素因子來盡量的提供一些新的 怎麼樣提供 具體講怎麼樣提供就是我們會盡量透過現在AI的輔助系統來盡量收集相關的有關類型的一些良性的那個型度來"},{"start":426.903,"end":452.936,"text":"提供給提供給國民法官參考參考過過去類似的案件他的量刑的統計讓他們在量刑上面不會有有有有有過度的的傾向是是是就參考那另外就是說在辯護人那個能量這個具體這個具體好你們你們現在目前有這樣做嗎現在在已經有已經有提供給從什麼時候開始提供了就是"},{"start":453.697,"end":456.239,"text":"秘書長你講這個很抽象啦,很抽象,什麼更完整更新"},{"start":480.16,"end":499.737,"text":"你過去從第一個案子開始你們就有提供國民法官這些相關的資料到現在經過一年之後大家認為有這樣的問題之後你們有什麼改善之道你說我還是提供資料這個蠻奇怪的我們會盡量來提供這方面的參考的案例那這個辯護量能不足的部分你們有什麼樣的改善之道"},{"start":500.217,"end":522.229,"text":"就是說我們跟法湖基金會那個請他們那一邊要專門的那個法湖的律師來處理這方面的案件那另外在不是不是不是這個秘書長你有沒有需要協助啊有沒有需要協助"},{"start":523.447,"end":541.613,"text":"我們那個刑事廳他對國民法官這一部分那廳長對這一部分也有很深入的言論李廳長我剛剛所提的問題你能不能有關這個辯護量能的部分謝謝委員的詢詢剛剛委員提到了民間所反映的兩個問題第一個是辯護量能不足的問題跟量刑傾向變動的問題"},{"start":543.053,"end":559.668,"text":"實際上我們行政廳在週年我們法官還有實施週年記者會已經有跟各界報告過了就辯護量能不足的部分我們有透過所謂的約聘辯護人的增設那我們會採改所謂的通譯的原額來增加全國增加11位約聘辯護人"},{"start":561.209,"end":564.391,"text":"11個約聘辯護人的公開申選原本的報名時間是到2月15號截止"},{"start":586.045,"end":612.971,"text":"那現在又延到3月6號為什麼延我們延的原因是因為剛好在2月期間不是因為剛在2月期間剛好是過年那段時間大概有一兩個禮拜的時間那有相關律師想報名的可能他的相關資料就準備不足所以我們把評估之後可能把它延到3月6號那到目前報名的人數還沒有完全確定目前還沒有完全確定目前知道已經有11位有報名了我們要錄取11位只有11位報名"},{"start":614.42,"end":615.662,"text":"春節期間又不是突然發生休假狀況"},{"start":632.093,"end":659.71,"text":"那不是突然本來沒有要休假結果現在變休假這個部分我們也在我們的相關的一些薪資薪資集聚部分我們也適當的調高薪資那讓約聘這個約聘辯護人他第一個他只是我們剛剛所講辯護量能不足之其中之一端我們這是輔助性的真正的辯護應該還是回歸到律師市場或者是法輔基金會的就我們所知道的"},{"start":660.49,"end":666.493,"text":"法律輔助基金會現在成立的行事協務中心這個我最後再請問一下這個有關這個我們擔任國民法官這個的國民目前這個有大家過去原本就有這樣的評估那確實也有發生這樣的狀況就是在這個對他們的擔任國民法官的國民之後他的這些心理狀況的影響"},{"start":687.677,"end":714.489,"text":"有提供心理的輔導我知道有的地方法院有提供但你們現在有全部的地方法院都有提供相關的心理方面輔導嗎那有關於這部分我們提供完整的心理方面輔導就在審前之前我們做心理健康的測驗所以每一個分院都有每個分院都有那這個最後這個剛剛有提到這個成效評估一年要成效評估現在已經超過一年了我們成效評估要什麼時候出來"},{"start":715.382,"end":719.491,"text":"我們報告預計從3月份從一般的認知報告已經先出來了那預計在9月份"},{"start":722.554,"end":722.594,"text":"沈發惠"},{"start":752.634,"end":777.936,"text":"那最終在9月份全部會出來以上這個部分齁我還有很多問題要請教啦齁那這個部分我們我看未來我們還有機會我們在會後我再來請教我們李廳長啦齁這個部分我們最主要是這個國民我們這個畢竟是國家新實施的一個制度實施一年之後這個評估到特別重要啦因為他就是未來他過去我們未來會看到的問題在過去一年大概就呈現了"},{"start":779.358,"end":780.138,"text":"我希望說我們司法院這邊能夠更用心的來針對這些審判"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}