{"error":false,"id":["149199"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149199,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149199","日期":"2024-03-04","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-19-2","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":2,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[19],"委員會代碼:str":["經濟委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-04T10:00:07+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-04T10:11:42+08:00","影片長度":"00:11:35","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2ddd2ec7472bb74c95f6a874ae98c1f56169f8ba9b0039caa7a627e9f432f8df970e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"10:00:07 - 10:11:42","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請農業部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月4日、3月6日及7日三天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":245,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（10時）謝謝主席，請陳部長。"],["主席：再請陳部長。"],["陳代理部長駿季：張委員早。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，5,580萬顆的過期進口蛋到現在還沒銷毀。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員說明，5,580萬顆的部分在去年的年底……因為招標的時候流標，到了去年年底已經有發包出去了，那發包出去裡面是由臺灣省農牧資源回收再利用協會得標，但是得標裡面……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，等一下我再讓你一起回復。我現在講的是很離譜，對不對？你本來說去年底就要銷毀了，對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["張委員啓楷：那會不會拖太久了？這裡面有牽扯到很多很多層面的問題，第一個，你放那麼久，那你現在放在那邊，又用了人民多少的納稅錢？你現在放在哪？那些雞蛋現在放在哪？"],["陳代理部長駿季：在我們的倉庫裡面做冷藏庫存。"],["張委員啓楷：冷藏？冷凍？"],["陳代理部長駿季：冷凍，冷凍庫存。"],["張委員啓楷：那電費跟倉儲的錢是誰要出？這是人民的納稅錢，對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["張委員啓楷：是不是人民納稅錢？"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["張委員啓楷：那個詳細資料請等一下送給我。"],["陳代理部長駿季：好。"],["張委員啓楷：那我要問，除了流標之外，你們有什麼積極的動作去趕快把它銷毀掉？"],["陳代理部長駿季：現在因為已經招標了，但是各縣市本身在利用它當堆肥的時候，他必須同意把這些廢棄的雞蛋當作資源再利用品項，所以現在就是由各縣市政府陸陸續續在接受業者申請，把這個廢棄雞蛋當作再利用品項，一旦完成了以後，會在120天之內完成銷毀的動作。"],["張委員啓楷：所以多久以前會銷毀掉？"],["陳代理部長駿季：120天，就是……"],["張委員啓楷：從現在？現在是3月初了，你說還要多久？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們的合約是規定啟動以後120天。"],["張委員啓楷：所以何時可以完成銷毀？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們是期待，如果陸陸續續開始有縣市已經同意的時候，他就會開始去處理，在120天內……我們希望在4月底到5月之間能夠決定。"],["張委員啓楷：給我一個確定的時間，完成銷毀的時間，而且不只要時間，我要明確的要求這個過程是要公開透明的，要讓民眾可以監督。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，我們之前已經說了，我們在整個銷毀的過程中，會有第三方的人來做監督跟押送，現在時間點的不確定性會卡在各縣市同意它成為廢棄物再利用的品項，這個時間點會掌握在各縣市手上，所以等到各縣市同意以後，我們就會儘快，現在已經有4個縣市可以了。"],["張委員啓楷：4個縣市可以？"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["張委員啓楷：你說目前你抓的時間是4月底、5月初？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，我們是估計這樣，因為我們的合約是120天，我們在儘快跟縣市政府聯絡，也拜託縣市政府能夠儘快的核准，因為這個基本上沒有太大的疑義。"],["張委員啓楷：你說的120天是何時開始算？"],["陳代理部長駿季：是合約，就是我們啟動、開始運送以後的120天，但它會更快，因為14家同時啟動就會很快。"],["張委員啓楷：現在是3月初了，120天怎麼可能是4月底或5月初？"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有，因為當初是在年底標的，年底標的時候我們不是說標了以後開始執行，因為各個再利用場要去跟縣市申請，那縣市要核可以後才開始計算。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，第一個是時間，詳細資料送到本席的辦公室。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["張委員啓楷：第二個，責任追究要怎麼追？為什麼拖這麼久？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們基本上從去年開始就積極的去做招標的動作，招標因為有流標的動作，沒辦法。第二次流標以後，我們再重新拆開來，變成運輸歸運輸，製作堆肥歸製作堆肥，我想我們所有同仁都盡心的希望能夠儘快地把這個廢棄雞蛋能夠處理掉。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，多花了多少錢？因為拖這麼久，多花了多少錢？你把那個資料也送到本席這邊來，好不好？"],["陳代理部長駿季：好。"],["張委員啓楷：多花多少錢？人民的納稅錢多花多少錢？","另外也是一個很離譜的事情，剛才有講到農保基金欠15億的這件事情，剛剛衣鳯問得很客氣，你當初是沒有編是不是？為什麼會沒有編這筆預算？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想當初從10,200提高到20,400，是在年終的時候去提升的，那我們的整個預算是在前一年度編列的，所以我們在下一年度，就是113年我們就會撥補。"],["張委員啓楷：所以你也沒有去申請動用第二預備金？"],["陳代理部長駿季：因為金額太大了，沒辦法申請。"],["張委員啓楷：所以第一個，你事前沒有預想到你這個修法要過？這是你的重大施政啊！你本來預算就要編啊！這是第一個責任啊！你沒有編已經是出問題，那沒有的話你要想辦法啊！既然金額很大，你要去找第二預備金，找錢啊！"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想跟委員說明，這個法案立法院通過的時候是在年終，因為預算編列是在前一年度，前一年度的時候根本都還沒有這樣的政策，這個政策是在112年度的時候，包括委員大家一起努力來達成的。在農保法規定，如果說農保有虧損的時候，中央主管機關要撥補，所以我們在113年就會撥補，不會影響到農民的權利。"],["張委員啓楷：利息錢是多少？剛剛有算出來嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：460萬。"],["張委員啓楷：誰要付這筆錢？因為你們沒有做，這個利息錢誰要負責？這是多出來的錢啊！"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有，整個資金的調度是政府部門應該要處理的。"],["張委員啓楷：還好勞保局有去催繳你，不然時間拖更久，利息難道不用付更多嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：一樣，沒有……"],["張委員啓楷：是人家催繳，你們才給人家錢。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們跟勞保局每一年固定會結算，然後如果有欠的部分，我們在隔年度就一定撥補，這是整個預算在支出的時候，特別是這種政策預算……"],["張委員啓楷：重大施政新編預算沒有編，第二個，有一個緊急措施用的第二預備金你也不要，現在又多出利息，這叫調度嗎？這完全沒有責任？"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有，這個在農保條例裡面就規定了，相關的這些農損的虧損，因為農保本身我們政府有補助，相關的保費也比較低，我們政府有補助，那這個部分就會持續有一定的虧損，這個虧損每一年都是由政府第二年來撥補的。"],["張委員啓楷：時間有限，再問一下公糧收購的問題。部長你知道12年沒有調了，對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，從100年開始。"],["張委員啓楷：都沒有調，那你知道物價漲了多少？這12年物價漲了多少？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們跟委員報告，我們內部也曾經算過，其實我們的目的都是一樣的，就是希望提高農民的收益，以這幾年來看，農民的收益……"],["張委員啓楷：現在的問題就是我去中南部演講的時候，像易餘和我都是嘉義的，嘉義的農民就在抗議啊！每次演講他們就講，你知道這次的總統大選，柯文哲跟侯友宜的共同政見就是調高公糧，而且有志一同喔！1公斤5塊。我現在跟你講的第一個，為什麼要調？農民有苦說不出來，所以他們要求立法委員要幫忙問，這是一個。第二個，物價已經漲了那麼多了，14%，我給你一個更恐怖的數目字，這12年你沒有調，基本工資漲多少？快一倍耶！"],["陳代理部長駿季：不是，我要跟委員……"],["張委員啓楷：農民有時候也是要請人啊！對不對？他的工資都提高了、成本都提高了，你為什麼不調？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員說明，因為公糧只占所有稻穀收購的30%，70%是由民糧收購的，那你可以看民糧的收購本身，這幾年從過去的800塊、九百多塊一直到1,060塊左右，民營的產地價提高，那才是確保我們農民收益的非常重要的制度。"],["張委員啓楷：對啊！農民也是這樣講啊！他如果可以賣給民間，他就去賣啦！可是你們收購為什麼不能提高呢？"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有，我想……"],["張委員啓楷：基本工資也漲了快一倍，至少你要讓農民的成本……這是農民的心聲，你是農業部長，你要體會、苦民所苦、瞭解民眾要什麼，對不對？農民要什麼嘛！農民這樣一直要求，已經講十幾年了，還是都不動？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員報告，我們從100年的經驗，我們提高公糧收購5塊以後，過2年以後，整個稻作面積瞬間暴增，暴增了以後民糧的價格往下降，所以相對對農民來講是不利的。"],["張委員啓楷：這12年來你看，種植的面積降了多少？43.66%，收穫的面積降了43.66%，產量也少了36.61%啊！"],["陳代理部長駿季：產量是增加的，產量是增加的。"],["張委員啓楷：這10年來的稻米產量是增加嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，每公頃的產量。"],["張委員啓楷：給我一個詳細資料好不好？這是我辦公室做出來的東西……"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們產量是增加的。"],["張委員啓楷：不過至少在耕種上，顯然他們因為你一直沒有漲，它一直往下降，對不對？你能不能……"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有，一直提高，一直到我們稻作四選三以後，才開始往下降，從過去的……"],["張委員啓楷：又降，後來又降，所以就應該要調啦！"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有……"],["張委員啓楷：你為什麼只有看到漲的，為什麼不看到降的呢？"],["陳代理部長駿季：那個降是因為我們政策推動稻作四選三，從27萬降到二十三萬多，過去從那時候調高五塊的時候，它從24萬到25萬變成27萬公頃。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我知道啦，你剛才的報告，我有看。你有統計了5年嘛，我現在更進一步統計了12年給你看……"],["陳代理部長駿季：一樣啊！我們……"],["張委員啓楷：每次漲完之後，漲了一點點，可是後來就掉下來嘛！"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有……"],["張委員啓楷：你要長期來看啊！"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們是用長期的，就是他的稻收面積會提高……"],["張委員啓楷：你5年、我12年，那就是長期已經降下來……"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有，都提高到27萬公頃左右，一直到我們政策推動四選三才降到23萬、24萬，還包括我們目前這些停灌的……"],["張委員啓楷：所以部長你今天的回答，你就是堅持不調漲就對了？"],["陳代理部長駿季：不是，在總質詢的時候，院長也曾經承諾，我們會做稻穀價格相關的整體評估，整體的評估不代表就是一定……我們一定是找對農民收益最有幫助的方案。"],["張委員啓楷：農民就在抗議啊！"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有……"],["張委員啓楷：我問你，你今年有調薪嗎？在座所有的官員有沒有調薪？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我還是跟委員說明……"],["張委員啓楷：你調了4%，然後基本工資漲那麼多，這是一個common sense啊！"],["陳代理部長駿季：但是相對的，明年的……"],["張委員啓楷：農民都已經這樣要求！"],["陳代理部長駿季：因為我們公糧收購有一定的價格，像一期作2,000公頃是26塊，但是如果民糧的每百台斤到2,092塊的時候，它就已經超過我們的輔導收購價，相對的，民糧的價格拉高的時候，對農民才有實質的幫助。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我是去鄉下，我們的農民反映，包括蔡易餘，我們都聽到這些聲音。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我瞭解。"],["張委員啓楷：你知道光是經濟委員會，有多少委員已經提過這個問題了？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我瞭解。"],["張委員啓楷：這是我們共同碰到的問題，我們是要幫農民解決問題，對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：是，我知道。"],["張委員啓楷：你是農業部長啊！聽到這個心聲……"],["陳代理部長駿季：瞭解。"],["張委員啓楷：你能不能把比較詳細的，把你們的整個評估……"],["陳代理部長駿季：好，我們把詳細的……"],["張委員啓楷：更重要的是，怎麼樣可以照顧農民，好不好？想一下！"],["陳代理部長駿季：瞭解。"],["張委員啓楷：12年沒有調了，一起努力一下，好不好？"],["陳代理部長駿季：好，瞭解。"],["張委員啓楷：拜託！謝謝。"],["主席（張委員啓楷代）：請楊召集委員楊瓊瓔委員質詢，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":124,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-2","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","林岱樺","謝衣鳯","張啓楷","呂玉玲","蔡易餘","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra 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在放在那裡?在我們的倉庫裡面做冷藏庫存冷藏?你走到那裡冷藏?冷凍的,冷凍庫存那電費給倉主的錢什麼時候存?這是人民的納稅錢對不對?是"},{"start":87.597,"end":88.738,"text":"是不是人民納稅錢?"},{"start":88.738,"end":113.731,"text":"是。那個詳細資料請等一下送給我。好,那我要問除了流標之外,你們有什麼積極的動作去趕快把它銷毀掉?我想整個的一個現在因為已經招標了,但是各縣市本身在利用它當堆肥的時候,它必須同意它把這些廢棄的雞蛋當作資源再利用品項。"},{"start":114.771,"end":126.857,"text":"所以現在就是由各縣市政府陸陸續續在接受業者申請把這個廢棄雞蛋當作再利用品項那一旦完成了以後會在120天之內去完成一個銷毀的動作"},{"start":130.439,"end":135.143,"text":"從現在今天3月7日你說還要多久?我們是合約是規定是啓動以後120天所以當時要完成銷毀我們是期待如果說陸陸續續開始有有開始有縣市已經同意的時候他就會開始就處理在120天內大概我們希望說在4月底4月底到5月之間時間比較長的時間好了你說你說比較長的時間完成銷毀喔"},{"start":155.542,"end":183.402,"text":"而且不只要時間我要明確的要求這個過程要是公開透明的要讓民眾可以監督我們之前已經說了我們在整個消費的過程中會有第三方的人來做監督跟押送那現在的時間點會不確定性會卡在各縣市同意它是成為廢棄物再利用的品項這個時間點會掌握在各縣市手上所以等到各縣市同意以後我們就會盡快現在已經有四個縣市可以了"},{"start":185.243,"end":203.015,"text":"市的管制可以?你說目前的時間是什麼?4月第5會期?對,我們是估計這樣,因為我們合約是在120天嘛那現在如果說我們在盡快跟縣市政府聯絡也拜託縣市政府能夠盡快的核准因為這個基本上沒有太大的意義是合約,就是我們啓動開始運送以後120天啊"},{"start":207.498,"end":229.067,"text":"那他會更快因為14家同時啓動就會很快因為當初是在年底標的那年底標的時候我們不是說標了以後開始執行因為各縣市各個那個再利用廠要去跟縣市申請那縣市要合格以後才開始計算第一個責任追究要怎麼追為什麼拖這麼久"},{"start":237.769,"end":255.316,"text":"我們基本上從去年開始我們就積極的去做招標的動作那招標因為有流標的動作沒辦法第二次流標後來我們再重新拆開來以後變成運輸、貴運輸、製作堆肥、製作堆肥那我想我們所有同仁在盡心的希望能夠盡快的把這個廢棄基站能夠處理掉"},{"start":256.937,"end":257.257,"text":"為什麼沒有編這筆預算?"},{"start":283.746,"end":284.887,"text":"所以你也不去申請動用第二億美金?"},{"start":302.04,"end":319.41,"text":"因為金額太大了沒有辦法申請所以第一個你之前沒有預想到說你這個法是修法要過的尤其你重大施政啊你本來預算就要編啊這是第一個責任啊你沒有編已經是出問題啦那沒有的話你要想辦法啊雖然金額很大你要去找第二遍或找錢啊我想跟委員說明齁這個"},{"start":320.971,"end":322.231,"text":"您的利息是多少?多少元?"},{"start":352.642,"end":361.326,"text":"460萬這誰要負這筆錢?因為你們沒有做,這個利息錢誰要負責?這都是我的錢阿沒有,這是整個資金的調度是在政府部門應該要處理的阿"},{"start":363.337,"end":382.819,"text":"還好勞保局有去催教你,要不然這個歷期不知道時間拖更久,歷期要發布更多嗎?是人家催教你們才給人家錢我想我們跟勞保局每一年固定會結算的然後如果有欠的部分我們會在等於說在今年我們在隔年度就一定撥補這是在整個的預算在支出的時候特別是這種"},{"start":384.401,"end":407.28,"text":"重大施政新兵預算沒有編,第二個有一個緊急措施用第二億北京你也不要那你現在要多出利息,這叫調度嗎?這完全沒有責任?這個沒有,這個在農保條例裡面規定了相關的這些農損的虧損因為本身農保本身我們政府有補助那相關的保費也比較低,我們政府有補助那這個部分就會持續有一定的虧損"},{"start":408.081,"end":423.846,"text":"那這個虧損都是每一年都是由政府第二年來撥補的。時間有限齁,再問一下公糧收購的這個問題。你知道啊,12年沒有調了對不對?對,100年開始。那都沒有調,那你知道物價漲了多少?這12年物價漲了多少?"},{"start":426.907,"end":452.753,"text":"我想我們跟委員報告,我們內部也曾經算過,其實我們的目的都是一樣的,是希望提高農民的收益。那以這幾年來看,請問農民的收益...現在問題就是我去英港的時辰中南部,像玉嶼橋我都自己啊,自己農民就是在抗議啊,美食演講他們就講,你知道嗎?這邊的總統打算柯文哲跟侯友宜的共同的政見就是調高供糧啊,而且有志一同喔,一公斤五塊。"},{"start":454.363,"end":473.243,"text":"我現在跟你講的第一個,為什麼要調?農民有苦收不出來,所以他們要求立法院幫忙問,這是一個。第二個,物價已經漲了那麼多了,14%,我給你一個更恐怖的數目是,這12年你沒調,基本工資漲多少?快一倍,你農民有時候也在炒人工對不對?"},{"start":476.158,"end":492.065,"text":"他的工資都提高了,成本都提高了,你為什麼不調?我跟委員說明齁,我們公糧,因為公糧只占所有的稻穀的收購的30%,70%是由民糧收購的。那你可以看民糧的收購本身這幾年從過去的800塊、900多塊一直到1060塊左右。"},{"start":498.488,"end":524.717,"text":"民營的產地價提高那才是確保我們農民收益的非常重要的資助對阿對阿農民不是要講阿他如果可以賣給民間他就去賣啦可是你們收購為什麼不能提高呢沒有我想齁你那麼高你基本工資也漲阿漲了快一倍阿你行不行就讓農民我農民的心聲欸你是農業部長你要體會苦民所苦就是瞭解民眾要什麼對不對農民要什麼嘛阿農民這樣一直要求已經說了十幾年了都不等了我跟委員報告喔"},{"start":525.237,"end":543.251,"text":"我們從100年的經驗,我們提高供糧收過5塊以後,過兩年以後整個稻作面積瞬間暴增,暴增了以後民糧的價格往下降,所以相對對農民來講是不利的。你看這12年來你看,種植的面積降了多少?43.66,收穫的面積降了43.66,產量也少了36.61啊。產量是增加的。"},{"start":551.256,"end":576.252,"text":"這10年來的稻米的產量是增加嗎?給我一個詳細資料好不好?這是我辦公室追溯的東西。不過至少在耕種上顯然他們因為你一直沒有漲,他一直往下降對不對?你能不能再一直提高?一直到我們倒做四卷山以後才開始往下降。從過去的...又降,後來又降,所以這應該要調啦。你為什麼只有看到漲的,為什麼沒有看到降的呢?那個降是因為我們政策推動倒做四卷山從27萬降到23萬多。"},{"start":578.433,"end":600.215,"text":"那過去從那時候調高5塊的時候他從24萬到25萬公頃變成27萬公頃 我知道啦你剛才報告我有看你有統計了5年嘛我現在進一步統計了12年給你看 一樣啊每次漲完之後漲了一點點可是後來就掉下來嘛 沒有你要長期來看啊 我們是用長期的 就是他的倒數和機會提高 那就是長期就是已經降下來 沒有都提高到27萬公頃左右"},{"start":601.676,"end":627.934,"text":"一直到我們政策推動4選3才降到23、24還包括我們現在的目前的這些停管的部長你是今天的回答你就是堅持不調漲就對了我想在總時訓的時候院長也曾經承諾我們會做整個稻穀的這個價格相關的一個整體的評估那整體的評估不代表就是一定我們一定是找到對農民的收益最有幫助的方案"},{"start":633.317,"end":652.442,"text":"您在座的所有的觀點有沒有調清?我還是跟委員說沒有,我讓他基本工資漲那麼多,這是一個common sense,農民都已經這樣要求因為我們工糧收購有一定的價格,像一起做2000公頃是26塊但是你如果說民糧的每百台間到2092塊的時候"},{"start":655.623,"end":655.803,"text":"我了解"},{"start":672.603,"end":688.776,"text":"這是我們共同碰到問題,我們是要幫農民解決問題,對不對?你是農業部長啊,好不好?聽到這個心聲,你們把比較詳細的這個整個評估,更重要的,更重要的,怎麼樣可以照顧農民,好不好?想一下,12點沒有條了,好不好?這個我了解了,好不好?拜託,好,謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}