{"error":false,"id":["149200"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149200,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149200","日期":"2024-03-04","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-36-2","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":2,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-04T09:57:21+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-04T10:12:05+08:00","影片長度":"00:14:44","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2dddd67e8a72a1455fc42dd7be9832461c05f8ba9b0039caa7a63a79faeb812fbbed5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"09:57:21 - 10:12:05","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長列席說明立法計畫，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":291,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（9時57分）謝謝，謝謝召委，還有司法院列席的官員。我想我接續來請教一下秘書長。秘書長，我看司法及法制委員會一般人都不太喜歡進來，很冷門啦！為什麼很冷門？大家充滿無力感啦！我們這個社會對司法的滿意度你很清楚嘛！你滿意嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：因為根據中正大學的調查，這滿意度都不高。"],["莊委員瑞雄：這還需要中正大學？我跟你說，我從86年開始執業，後來就誤入歧途到了政壇，司法的內幕、風氣是怎麼樣，這幾十年來的改變，過去怎麼樣我怎麼會不清楚？但你說它有沒有進步？它當然是有進步！可是有進步，相對地我們的憲法賦予我們司法人員、尤其司法官終身的保障，人民當然對於司法官、這整個審判制度必須要有所期待嘛！人家有跟你要求，這是很合理的啊！這很合理。所以為什麼司法及法制委員會我很不喜歡進來？我說話比較不會那麼大聲啦，如果罵你們，會把你們罵到傻掉，你知道嗎？無濟於事啦！在這裡把你們罵一罵，你們不會改進的，很怕把你們罵一罵以後又是對你們一個打擊，對你們的信心，本來老百姓對你們的期待就沒有那麼高了，那個信心就那麼脆弱了，再把你們這樣……，我實在有一點……。從86年開始執業，我都有一點捨不得啦！但是我會覺得我們司法界這樣辜負老百姓的一個期待啦，真的辜負老百姓的期待！","我今天要就幾個問題來請教，我看個案的問題我就不談，可是從個案裡面你們可以看出一些問題。譬如說，我們看到最近這些網紅自導自演，譬如說我們國人在柬埔寨自導自演，深入凱博園區、什麼遭追捕毆打，然後失聯，結果在柬埔寨那邊，警察人員把他識破，就把他給判刑了，人家2天就破案，之後法院3天就判刑了，你知不知道？刑滿以後才可以驅逐出境，這個是柬埔寨，當然這個是法治看起來比較落後的一個地方。","可是，相對地，你說我們是一個民主法治的國家、我們是一個進步的國家，新加坡的網紅造假說遭蛋襲，然後我們拿臺灣的網紅──晚安小雞去做比較的話，你會發現，我們這裡一判是罰5萬、3萬，柬埔寨那邊一判下去就是2年，然後才可以出來。我的意思就是同樣侵害的都是什麼？秘書長，你的看法如何？對這種案件你的看法。"],["吳秘書長三龍：他一定會侵害一些法益啦！"],["莊委員瑞雄：當然啦！上位概念談的都是國家法益嘛，是不是？你說柬埔寨，它一定跟你說是國家法益啊！一樣的東西啊！在威權國家認為你給我胡說八道，你傷害我整個柬埔寨國家的一個形象；但臺灣就認為這是小事情，違反社會秩序維護法而已，罰一罰比較快！你有沒有什麼感觸？像這種很難去規範。其實我們在整個社會秩序維護法裡面，很多侵害法益裡面，在立法院我們不敢把它無限上綱之後侵害到國家法益，不敢啦！不敢啦！可是相對地，你會感覺同樣是對整個現行很多社會上引起這麼多紛擾的案件會不會過輕？有沒有這樣的問題？"],["吳秘書長三龍：所以我們法官也應該要傾聽各界的聲音，社會一些民眾的意見我們都要傾聽。"],["莊委員瑞雄：法官是人，法官也有七情六慾，法官不是神，既然憲法賦予你這麼好一個保障的時候，法官有的認為我只要不貪污、我只要不收錢的話，我最大！這個也不對！這也不對！我自己去執業，我反而會覺得我這輩子最大、給我的最好的一個勳章，是我去把臺北市政府前面景福門那個黨徽給幹掉，檢察官馬上把我起訴了，把我起訴的檢察官現在都升官了，位居高官；可是對我來講，我會覺得這個是意識形態的不同，我對堅持一個法律人的價值，我會認為我做的是對的。哪有市政府把一個黨徽塗上去3天說是叫做古蹟？我就去把你幹掉，你是對我精神上的凌虐。後來被起訴，法院判我無罪，這是附帶一提啦！我的意思就是說法官他也有他個人的一個評價，但問題就是說碰到整個法官對個案在審判的時候，常常加入太多個人的主觀看法。比如說我剛剛那個案子，一般民眾的想法就是古蹟最起碼也要4、50年、近百年才叫做古蹟。哪有一個政府去畫一個黨徽在那邊說那叫做古蹟，不可以畫掉？不然你也跟我說是毀損、你也跟我說那叫做公物，跟我說這個我才比較聽得下去，不是這樣說嗎？","比如說我舉個例子，前陣子發生的，我不要講立法院是誰，有一個民事案件，雙方互控提起民事訴訟，一審是甲方敗訴，就是立法院敗訴，二審逆轉。我就去看一審法官的判決，那個判決真的很好玩，其實他都有去論述他的一個道理，但是後來畫蛇添足，在判決理由裡面講：「一個人永遠活在別人的認可之下，是莫大的悲哀」、「他者言論是天堂或地獄，都在人當下吐納一念之間。願所有因他者言論所苦者，萌生一念之明，離苦得樂。」我真的覺得實在是……這是法官欸！","秘書長，我要聽你的看法。"],["吳秘書長三龍：因為按照我們法官倫理規範，法官應該要中間、中性啦！"],["莊委員瑞雄：是啊！"],["吳秘書長三龍：應該要中性，就是說要沒有色彩啦！"],["莊委員瑞雄：哪怕一個判決理由裡面的理由交代得多鏗鏘有力，光出現這種畫蛇添足，社會討論的又全部回歸到這句話，這個判決公不公正、到底有沒有理由，人家不會看了，人家會說這個法官怎麼這樣？你們司法院要特別、要好好去告誡，不要說告誡，你們自己法官要有一個行為的規範，該怎麼審判怎麼會不知道呢？你現在是當做你是神？你真的當做你是站在那個審判庭裡面，法袍穿上就可以好像好像愛怎麼講、愛怎麼加入自己的意見都可以？那個時候他是代表國家欸！不然怎麼可以說你幾年、你幾年，人跟人可以講幾年喔？我們可以去跟選民說你幾年、你幾年、你幾年喔？天下哪有這種事情？法官在判的時候也不叫法官，你是代表國家，賦予你這個公權力，你在那邊胡說八道也不對！我看那個越怪的判決，我越喜歡看，越不符合社會期待的，他敢這樣判其實理由都講得、論述得很充分，只是那個判決結果、邏輯推演到最後剛好跟國民的法律感情產生衝突，但這個不是，這個叫做畫蛇添足，這應該要避免啦！秘書長，這個不好啦！","你去看2022年瑞士洛桑管理學院（IMD）的評比，我們司法的公正性是不斷進步耶，2017年是第31名，2022年是第25名，與其他先進國家並駕齊驅。臺灣民眾對法官、對司法公正性的滿意度是百分之三十幾，你說立法院喜歡罵你們，其實立法院根本就管不到你們，除了預算以外，其他地方都很難監督到你們。重點在於身為一個法律人，整個司法受民眾的信賴，領人民的高薪俸祿，達成人民對司法的基本信賴，這是卑微的要求，秘書長，這不要開玩笑。","我最近看到臺南那個院長退休，他提到現在案件審不完，檢察官累、法官也累，這我也知道，很多人到本席服務處說：我的案件怎麼審那麼慢，是不是法官吃案、檢察官吃案了？這時我們就要好好跟他解釋，告訴他法院是大家的，沒辦法，案件只能慢慢審，最後一定會審到你的。可是法官的案量或檢察官的案量這麼大，我看那個院長還說不然偵查當中的案件移付調解，看這樣能不能救救法官、救救檢察官，讓他們的案量降低。在你的認知當中，我們的人力現在到底還差多少？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這關係到結案如何符合民眾的需求，就是說還是要在適當時間就要有結果啦！"],["莊委員瑞雄：是的，可是我們一直在補人，補到最後從院長退下來的人都還說：唉喲！詐欺案件的增加都會變成壓垮司法人員的最後一根稻草。夭壽！要退休的人每個都這樣說，這該怎麼辦？院長有那麼多的司法行政經驗，你也不能說他講的不對啊！他也不太可能胡說八道啊！這該怎麼辦？你的看法如何？偵查中案件移付調解也不太對，我如果是檢察官，非告訴乃論案件叫我全部都移付調解，但刑事案件我還是要繼續偵查，對檢察官來講又沒有什麼誘因，院長講的和檢察官的心態就不一定對了，這你們要如何調解？我看光是司法院和法務部這邊都必須要好好調解，總不能光有人喊，卻沒有人解決，本席想要請教你的看法如何？"],["吳秘書長三龍：當然效率是很重要的，一方面近年來案件急速增加很多，案件量確實也很多……"],["莊委員瑞雄：是啦，雖然案件多，但你們也要有一個想法啊！案件會越來越多，詐欺案件一定越來越多，洗錢案件越來越多，我們立法院的立法都已經接近民粹了，在我看來都已經接近民粹了，一直在增加，罪刑一直在加重，這已經顛覆司法人員的邏輯了。過去我們看得最重的是侵害到國家法益，到最後才是人身法益、財產法益，以前這些都是最低的，你知不知道？現在卻相反過來，認為騙人家錢的案件很嚴重，不要用連續犯，要一罪一罰，要加重，每個都一直加重。我們一直在加重，可是我們卻完全沒有解決事情。","包括毒品也一直加重，販賣一直加重、一直加重。以前我在當律師去法院、進去裡面去看的時候，我曾經問過典獄長，我問他因為毒品犯罪關在這裡的有多少人，他說是17%；我當立委從第8屆、第9屆、第10屆，到現在是第11屆，我進去問他現在因為販毒關在裡面的占多少比例，結果他說是52%。我們立法院亂搞嘛！你們也不敢講話嘛！然後大家所提出來的法案全部都是民粹嘛！根本就不是為這個國家、為這個社會在建立一個制度在解決事情啊！你們和我們一起和稀泥！你們叫做法律專家耶，立法院的專家比你們少多了，但你們也不敢提出你們的看法啊！"],["主席：莊委員，麻煩儘快。"],["莊委員瑞雄：要有態度啦！今天因為時間的關係，接下來我們還有很多機會，大家可以互相來討論。其實我很不想問你們，也很不想罵你們，罵你們沒有意思啊！罵你們只是把你們罵笨了而已，公信力都已經這麼低了，結果罵一罵又把你們的司法公信力摧毀，但是有時候真的讓人生氣，你們不改進也不行啦！這真的要加油啦！秘書長。"],["吳秘書長三龍：好，謝謝。"],["莊委員瑞雄：要有一個想法啦！"],["主席：謝謝莊委員。","我在這邊先做個宣告，因為今天有委員提出臨時提案，，所以我們等一下在11點20分的時候處理，到時候如果有委員正在詢答，那我們就是在該位委員詢答完畢之後就馬上處理臨時提案，同時也請三黨的助理通知黨鞭11點20分到場。","現在請登記第4位的羅委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":384,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-2","speakers":["吳宗憲","翁曉玲","黃國昌","沈發惠","鍾佳濱","柯建銘","羅智強","莊瑞雄","林思銘","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","謝龍介","陳俊宇","鄭天財Sra 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你知道嗎"},{"start":153.368,"end":166.399,"text":"行滿以後才可以驅逐出境這個是柬埔寨當然它這個是法治比較看起來是很落後的一個地方可是相對你說我們這個是一個民主法治的國家我們是一個進步的一個國家新加坡的網紅據造假他說招這個旦夕然後這個我們台灣的網紅網安小雞"},{"start":176.451,"end":183.256,"text":"去做比較的話,你會發現,我們這裡的判決後,5萬、3萬。而柬埔寨這裡的判決後,2年。相對我這意思就是說,同樣侵害的都是什麼?秘書長你會看完,對這件案件你會看完。"},{"start":196.257,"end":222.178,"text":"那都是有的他一定會侵害一些法益當然啊你上位概念大家談的就是國家法益嘛是不是你說柬埔寨他一定跟你講是國家法益啊欸一樣的東西啊這種威權國家認為說你都給我胡說八道你傷害我整個柬埔寨的國家的一個形象而且台灣就認為那小事情社會秩序維護而已發落了發落了發落了趕快"},{"start":226.227,"end":230.029,"text":"但你有沒有什麼感觸沒有像這種很難去規範其實我們在整個社會秩序維護法裏面他很多侵害這個法律裏面在立法院我們不敢把他無限上綱之後侵害到國家法律啊不敢啦不敢啦可是相對的你會不會覺得說平平的這樣對整個"},{"start":250.964,"end":253.825,"text":"法官是人：法官也有七情六慾：法官不是神：那既然憲法賦予你這麼好的一個保障的時候："},{"start":280.868,"end":285.871,"text":"法官有的認為說我只要不貪汙我只要不收錢的話我最大這個也不對這也不對我自己去執業我反而會覺得我這輩子最大給我的最好的一個勳章是我去把那個臺北市政府前面那個警符門那個我去把那個黨匯把他給幹掉現在我沒辦法起訴了"},{"start":310.643,"end":336.642,"text":"包括起訴的檢察官現在都升官了位居高官了可是對我來講我會覺得說這個是意識形態的不同我對堅持一個法律人的價值我會認為我做的是對的哪有你圖上去一個市政府把它圖上去一個黨會三天說是叫做骨雞我就去把你幹掉你是對我精神上的凌虐會被起訴法院判我無罪"},{"start":338.238,"end":349.327,"text":"這附帶一題啦我的意思是說法官他也有他個人的一個評價但問題就是說碰到整個法官對個案在審判的時候常常啊加入太多個人的主觀的一個看法你像比如說我剛那個案子我會認為說三天我怎麼會一般民眾的想法就是說古蹟古蹟沒想到也要死五十年了吃八年了那叫做古蹟"},{"start":367.435,"end":370.696,"text":"那像譬如說我舉個例子前陣子發生我不要講立法院是誰我們一個民事案件雙方互控提起民事訴訟一審就是甲方敗訴立法院敗訴二審的逆轉"},{"start":395.643,"end":423.095,"text":"一審的法官其實我就去把他看那個判決那個判決就真的很好玩其實他都有去論述他的一個道理但是後來話捨天竺判決理由裡面就講他說一個人永遠活在別人的認可之下是莫大的悲哀他者言論是天堂或地獄都在人當下吐納一念之間願所有因他者言論所苦者名聲一念之名離苦"},{"start":424.315,"end":424.536,"text":"主席"},{"start":428.052,"end":455.8,"text":"秘書長 我要聽你的看法因為按照我們法官倫理規範 法官應該要中堅中性應該要中性 應該就是說要沒有色彩這哪怕一個判決理由裡面的 你的理由交代的多鏗鏘有力光出現這種畫蛇天竺 社會討論的又全部回歸到這句話你這個判決公不公正 到底有沒有理由"},{"start":457.073,"end":459.135,"text":"要不然要看人家說你這個法官怎麼這樣這你們司法院家你們要特別喔要好好的去告誡不要說告誡你自己要有法官要有一個行為的規範該怎麼審判怎麼會不知道呢你現在動作你是刑你現在動作你現在站在那個審判廳裡面法判簽了你就可以在那好像愛怎麼講愛怎麼加入自己的意見就可以"},{"start":482.85,"end":489.694,"text":"那個時候他是代表國家欸阿不然那個就說你幾年你幾年人跟人可以講幾年喔我們可以去跟選民講說欸你幾年你幾年你幾年喔天阿跟老的事你法官在判的時候你也不叫法官你這代表國家賦予你這個公權那你在那邊胡說八道這也不對我看那個越怪的判決我越喜歡看"},{"start":508.271,"end":524.602,"text":"越不符合社會期待的他敢這樣判其實理由都講的論述的很充分只是到最後那個判決結果邏輯推演到最後剛好跟法國民的法律感情剛好產生衝突可是這個不是這個叫化死而天竺你要避免啦秘書長這不行啦這不行啦你去看2022年世界我們我看這個瑞士洛杉磯管理學院IMD我們司法的公正性我們是不斷進步欸"},{"start":537.005,"end":537.566,"text":"臺灣民眾對法官﹚對司法的公正性﹚的滿意度﹚30幾%"},{"start":552.935,"end":569.782,"text":"三十幾趴你說立法院想喜歡罵你立法院根本就管不到你們除了法除了預算以外其他很難去監督到你們可是重點是說你司法身為一個法律人司法界你這個整個司法受民眾的一個信賴領人民的高薪俸祿"},{"start":577.773,"end":593.657,"text":"達成人民對基本司法的一個信賴這是卑微的要求啊我最近看到你們那個臺南那個法官那個院長退休他去提提到啊說整個啊現在案件的審不完"},{"start":598.766,"end":603.789,"text":"有很多人來我們合作說我們的案件怎麼那麼慢?是法官把我們折騰了嗎?檢察官把我們折騰了嗎?我們都要好好解釋,歡迎大家的,大家的案件沒那麼多要慢慢審,慢慢審,一定會審到你的可是我們這個法官案量,或者檢察官案量,這麼大我看那個院長當時講說,不然檢查中,偵查當中的案件,一復調解"},{"start":626.395,"end":630.499,"text":"阿看得到這樣舊舊法官舊舊檢察官也讓他們這樣暗量就沒辦法降低我們的卡邱現在是又差多少差多少啦在你的認知裡面"},{"start":639.608,"end":668.718,"text":"所以這個就是說那個那個結案的如何符合民眾的那個需求就是說還是要還是要在適當時間就要結果可是我們一直在補人一直在補人補到最後你從院長退下來都跟你說這個到最後什麼詐欺案件這種案件的一個增加都會變成壓垮司法人員最後的一根稻草"},{"start":669.619,"end":676.421,"text":"徵查中一副調節也不太對我如果檢察官你又非告訴哪一份案件叫我全部都一副調節我要再刑事案件我還是要繼續偵查"},{"start":698.818,"end":710.729,"text":"對檢察官又沒有什麼誘因那院長講的跟檢察官的心態就不一定對囉你怎麼調解我看你只是司法院講法務部這裡你就好好去你好好做一個調解而已阿光有人喊沒有人解決你會看完 我要問你會看完"},{"start":720.148,"end":748.383,"text":"因為當然這個效力是蠻重要的啦是很重要那一方面這個確實近年來那個案件確實也急速增加很多啦那個量那個量案件量確實也很多啦是啦案件多案件多你也要有一個想法案件多會越來越多啊會越來越多啊詐欺案件一定越來越多啊"},{"start":749.571,"end":749.911,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":764.002,"end":774.134,"text":"這已經顛覆法律人員 司法人員的邏輯了啦過去我們在看最重的 齁 最重的國家法益親愛的國家法益 絕當 齁 再來 欸 搞不好那是人身法益 搞不好那是財產法益 以前那是算誰嫁的 你知不知道 現在都當病 都當病"},{"start":784.145,"end":786.886,"text":"我獲得那個罪騙人家錢那個很嚴重連續一份這個也一罪一罰再來加重我們一直在加重可是我們全部都沒有解決事情"},{"start":801.206,"end":814.035,"text":"毒品一直加重 販賣一直加重一直加重我以前在做律師的時候 去法院的時候我去裡面看的時候 我問過典獄長你現在關在這裡 毒品犯罪的多少?17%我做立法會第8屆第9屆第10屆 現在第11屆 我去裡面問問你現在關在這裡 販毒的多少?52%"},{"start":829.744,"end":846.388,"text":"我們這個立法院亂搞嘛你們也不敢講話嘛然後大家都提出來的法案全部都是民粹嘛根本就不是為這個國家為這個社會在建立一個制度在解決事情啊你們跟我們這個好犀利啊你們叫做法律專家欸立法院的專家比你們少少多了你們也不敢提出你們的看法"},{"start":856.698,"end":881.137,"text":"要有態度啦 要有態度啦 因為時間的問題接下來我們要很多的機會 大家可以互相來討論我很不愛問人的啦 也很不愛罵人的啦 罵人就沒意思了罵人就跟你罵到五年了 公信你都已經在嫁了 媽媽還在你司法公信你 把人摧毀但是有時候真的讓人生氣 你們不改進也不行啦 好不好這真的要加油啦 何秘書長 有一個想法啦"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}