{"error":false,"id":["149215"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149215,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149215","日期":"2024-03-04","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-23-2","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":2,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[23],"委員會代碼:str":["交通委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-04T10:04:34+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-04T10:14:34+08:00","影片長度":"00:10:00","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2dddd0c3d9e205feffbafaa0e83a28976539f8ba9b0039caa7a65e919f47949058595ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"魯明哲","委員發言時間":"10:04:34 - 10:14:34","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員吳澤成列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月4日、6日及7日三天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":417,"blocks":[["魯委員明哲：（10時4分）謝謝主席，有請工程會吳主委。"],["主席：請吳主委。"],["吳主任委員澤成：委員，你好！"],["魯委員明哲：吳主委，在上一屆其實我們談了滿多公共工程各個面向的問題，尤其是在上個任期我一上任的時候，我們對桃機T3、R3的問題也聊了滿多的，也謝謝你啦！因為工程會有你去特別督導，尤其像T3、R3這個部分你本身也不斷的在督促，因為當時流標了非常多次。現在談到我們桃園機場的第三航廈、第三跑道，剛好我們桃園機場南跑道在歲修，你知道昨天晚上造成什麼嗎？辦了什麼活動嗎？就是贈送香港來臺旅客有飛到日本的感覺，你瞭解嘛！就是1個小時，再送他3個小時。可是我感覺其實這是一個安全的問題，那是桃機公司或者民航局的另外一個領域，我們現在在談的是T3、R3真的是非常的急迫，有這樣的需要，而不像在疫情的時候感覺沒什麼客人來、沒有什麼航班落地，那時候桃機都說正好藉這兩、三年要好好札實的改善一下跑道，結果還沒1年，當然這是定期的歲修啊！我又想因為這麼急，當時桃機第三航廈原計畫經費是746億，前幾天機場公司跟民航局說目前預估至少漲三成，按照原始計畫的比例，大概會漲到四成多，對這個情況你應該比較瞭解為什麼會這樣的原因吧！我記得在去年的時候你也特別說，事實上，現在營建在很多方面，像材料的指數都已經回穩了，對於現在這個情況，經費漲這麼多，第一個，你知不知道？第二個，你看是什麼樣的一些問題？有沒有可能避免？麻煩主委來說明一下。"],["吳主任委員澤成：關於這個數字，在上個禮拜魯委員有跟桃機要資料，楊董事長已經有告訴我這個情形，這個案子確實從開始到現在，我講白話一點，今天如果沒有疫情，恐怕更嚴重，我話是這樣講，我是很務實的，所以我們一直在督促他們應該要趕快加速來進行。現在因為物價的關係增加了相當多的經費，那麼也應該要趕快，該報院就報院，趕快來調整這個計畫經費。"],["魯委員明哲：好，主委，我們都很關心這個重大工程，當然這只是冰山的一角，有超級多的工程，不管是軌道工程或者其他的，包括高速公路，就是我們交通委員會的很多工程都面臨類似的問題，其實我真的覺得在疫情過後很多的問題看起來，在營建方面不管是公共工程或者個人的營造工程，我覺得它面臨的問題真的沒有太大的緩解，第一個是大缺工的時代；第二個是公共工程大缺錢的時代；第三個就是在疫後居然可能面臨到高風險，可是不管營造或者運輸業卻無保險的時代，在過去我完全沒有想到怎麼會發生有錢卻沒有人要去保的事情，所以現在面臨這樣的情況，都會影響到公共工程。","第二個，我想請教一下公共工程安全的問題，像我們現在在簡報上面講的很多都是個人的工程，可是我們發覺它都是滿知名的營造廠商做的，那有部分的營造廠商可能也在做公共工程，我也特別看到基泰建設的問題、興富發的吊臂倒下來等問題，我也有看到，我覺得你滿負責任的，你沒有說這是私人的所以你不管，因為都是工程，工程有很多影響的因素，有些是管理的缺失，有受地質影響的可能性，這個部分在公共工程確實會發生，有可能可以去引用、學習。我特別看到你在去年的時候說馬上要開會，開了兩場會議，到底大概擬出了什麼樣的方向，可不可以藉這個機會來說一下？"],["吳主任委員澤成：好，特別跟委員報告，我們經過檢討之後發現幾點，第一個，工地的災害，公共工程比較少，民間工程比較多，存在這個現象，公共工程會比較少的原因是因為主辦機關有在統合、整合，從設計、監造、施工解決問題、看出問題來處理；民間工程從設計、監造到施工各自為政、沒有統合，我們經過檢討之後，建議內政部應該要把這個部分統合起來，甚至於連鑽探也是獨立的，資料互相之間的連結確認很重要，所以我正在推動這個部分。"],["魯委員明哲：我希望透過這個會議的專家結論，無論如何要提升工程的品質，有時候我們做得好，民間企業也會去學，所以我覺得互相學習、經驗累積非常重要。","我今天要談的最後一個問題，我覺得真的是危機，因為今年年初到現在我已經辦了兩次的協調會，兩次都是運輸界，很大的公司每天幾百臺貨車出去，但現在很多保險公司不承保了，不是風險係數變高，把保費增加就能保，雖然過去我們的想像都是這樣。現在很多公司不承保了，可是不保不是影響那一家貨運公司而已，可能駕駛本身要出去面對，以及路人也可能面臨到很多情況，萬一不幸發生重大事故的時候，可能就擺爛了。前一陣子是租賃車也不保了，聽說後續還會有很多，像營造業及運輸界有很多卡車，他們在公共工程或者民間工程是載砂石、運輸的主力。主委真的要幫忙注意這件事，過去的保險機制有一半都不見了，至少目前貨車貨運及租賃業都面臨到保險公司完全不保，不是提高保費的問題，請金管會協調，它卻只能建議。","關於營造公共工程，主委也看到工商時報做了統計，營造綜合險5年保費及賠款率，就是這些保險公司的收入跟賠多少了，我們看到2023年的保費收入是46.95億，賠款率到達百分之百，所以現在也傳出部分的公共工程，很多產險業者不太願意承保。當然他們講了主要的理由，是因為國際再保市場也覺得風險太高了，風險原本可以轉嫁，卻轉嫁不出去。第二個，公司本身有承保能量問題，可能也是疫情的災害，因為疫情災害，很多保險公司已經賠到借款、虧本了。第三個是保險條件不符招標規範，你們有很多契約範本，譬如自負額，像我們自己要去投保，最多我們付10%，其他可能都要轉嫁保險公司。過去看起來保險公司願意承保，現在看起來他們覺得這樣他們也沒辦法了，因為疫情，好多家都賠了幾百億、都負債了。如果這個事情確實發生在公共工程上面，也就是公共工程發生什麼意外災害，對於界內，勞工朋友的保險可能不足；對於外面，可能影響到鄰損根本沒有保險好賠，發生事情就倒掉，縱使優質的營造廠也經不起一、兩次大型的災害。最後，因為聽到這麼多各行各業確實可能面臨高風險無保險的時代，請主委針對營造、公共工程這個部分來瞭解、協調，可不可以？"],["吳主任委員澤成：馬上來做，非常謝謝委員提供這個訊息。"],["魯委員明哲：好，謝謝。"],["吳主任委員澤成：謝謝。"],["主席：魯委員發言完畢。我們現在請何欣純委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":254,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-2","speakers":["李昆澤","林沛祥","黃健豪","廖先翔","徐富癸","林國成","林俊憲","魯明哲","何欣純","陳素月","邱若華","游顥","蔡其昌","許智傑","陳俊宇","邱志偉"],"page_start":211,"meetingDate":["2024-03-04"],"gazette_id":"1130901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員吳澤成列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130901_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":4.30034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.00909375,"end":6.392843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.87784375,"end":25.562843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.96784375,"end":26.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.28409375,"end":33.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.57846875,"end":39.299093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.68721875,"end":42.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.91034375,"end":45.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.49221875,"end":47.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.618468750000005,"end":50.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.010343750000004,"end":52.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.74846875,"end":54.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.17846875,"end":58.705343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.78534375,"end":61.034093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.72596875000001,"end":63.109718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.31221875000001,"end":85.53659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.78534375000001,"end":87.61221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.03409375000001,"end":89.72159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.99159375,"end":91.44284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.93221875,"end":93.75471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.36221875000001,"end":94.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.71659375,"end":108.53721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.70596875000001,"end":109.73534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.24971875000001,"end":113.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.90346875,"end":115.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.74284375,"end":126.20534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.59346875000001,"end":127.01534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.6734687500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