{"error":false,"id":["149219"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149219,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149219","日期":"2024-03-04","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-36-2","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":2,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-04T10:39:54+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-04T10:53:10+08:00","影片長度":"00:13:16","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2dddb1abddffe09aaaac2dd7be9832461c05f8ba9b0039caa7a61614a9641f3446d05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"10:39:54 - 10:53:10","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長列席說明立法計畫，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":440,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（10時39分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場的工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。我想今天就來就教於我們秘書長，吳秘書長，4年前本席在這個會議室，我們非常欣慰地通過了國民法官法，你知道司法改革是蔡英文總統這8年任期一個重要的承諾，也是重要的政績，請問國民法官法開始實施幾年了？"],["吳秘書長三龍：從去年實施到現在。"],["鍾委員佳濱：去年開始嘛！我們在4年前通過之後，是不是有將近3年的時間可以準備？"],["吳秘書長三龍：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你覺得準備時間充不充足？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這些都在預估的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：預估的範圍內？"],["吳秘書長三龍：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對於去年一整年執行下來的成效，你覺得如何？"],["吳秘書長三龍：根據中正大學的調查……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你對著麥克風聲音大一點，好嗎？謝謝。"],["吳秘書長三龍：根據中正大學最近的一份調查，滿意度有到70%。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是事實上我看到坊間其他媒體的報導，大概有指出幾個問題，首先，有人強烈的質疑，實施國民法官法的審理案件，就是國法案有明顯的好像檢辯不對等，就是實力差很多，你同意這樣的看法嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：有這種聲音出現。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你覺得可能的原因是什麼？是因為檢察官的準備比較充足，而律師相對地準備不夠？"],["吳秘書長三龍：因為這些涉及到一些實務上運作，就是檢察官這邊的人力相對是充足……"],["鍾委員佳濱：檢察官人力充足。第二個，有人說在前3年的準備期，我們司法院跟第一線實務辦了很多的講習，但是普遍審檢的參與比較高，律師們很少參加，你覺得是不是原因之一？就是律師他們比較沒有時間去參加這3年關於國民法官法運作實務的講習，有沒有這個情況？"],["吳秘書長三龍：因為畢竟律師他……"],["鍾委員佳濱：又忙。"],["吳秘書長三龍：都是自由業，可能是意願的問題。"],["鍾委員佳濱：第三個，有人提出說國民參審、國民擔任國民法官好像意願也不高，你同意這樣的一個描述嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：根據一般我們現在就是說，他會有一套……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你同意嗎？他們說一般國民對於擔任國民法官，甚至有人說視為畏途，你覺得這有可能嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：應該不至於。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請問一下過去這1年的實施概況，國民法官在前三庭的出席情況如何？你覺得滿意嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：就一般……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們來看一下，這邊有秀出來，目前國民法官的報到率不到一半，原因是什麼？"],["吳秘書長三龍：因為……"],["鍾委員佳濱：原因我都給你秀出來了，有沒有？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這個也有一些他個人工作或……"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，說得很對。一般民眾、很多民眾說他拒絕參加，不曉得雇主應給予公假。當你被選任為國民法官參審時，雇主要給予公假，司法院有就這個部分公告周知、強力宣傳嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：我們一直都有在宣傳。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有在宣傳，好，我們來看一下，你們自己的調查顯示，民眾一般擔任國民法官大概會有幾個擔心，這是複選題，超過一半被擔心的包括他覺得很殘忍啊！或者說他擔心被輿論批判，或者擔心他個人的人身安全，或者他不瞭解案情，或者他覺得會影響別人的命運，或者他沒有法律專業，這些原因好像沒有包括因為雇主不給予公假，當然雇主不給予公假可能沒有表達出來。您認為有這些情況發生要如何改善？"],["吳秘書長三龍：就是要讓民眾瞭解國民法官的這種……"],["鍾委員佳濱：國民法官法施行1年，你覺得民眾、人民對於司法或對法官的信任度有沒有提高？"],["吳秘書長三龍：應該會提高。"],["鍾委員佳濱：應該有？顯現司法是完全沒有，只有1年還不足以言成功，路還很長。我們根據國民法官法第一百零四條，6年要做總檢討，對不對？你們根據第一百零五條是不是每一年要出年度檢討報告？那你們出了沒有？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這一部分我們正在進行，請刑事廳廳長……"],["李廳長釱任：謝謝委員的垂詢，關注這個問題。"],["鍾委員佳濱：直接講，你們做了沒有？"],["李廳長釱任：我們正在做。"],["鍾委員佳濱：正在做？但是我看到你們司法院1月17號的新聞稿說，你們在2月幾乎要公布，現在幾月了？"],["李廳長釱任：3月公布的是一般民眾的認知調查的部分，我們預計在9月的時候會完成所有年度……"],["鍾委員佳濱：一次說完嘛！"],["李廳長釱任：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們在1月的時候告訴我們2月要公布，現在已經3月了，公布了任何一份沒有？"],["李廳長釱任：公布了一份112年一般民眾認知的調查報告，已經公布了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以你們分了很多項目？"],["李廳長釱任：對，總共分了……"],["鍾委員佳濱：全部要公布完是什麼時候？"],["李廳長釱任：到9月份會全部都公布。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，原來的第一百零五條規定你們要提出年度檢討報告，有請你分好幾次公布到該年的年底嗎？你們可不可以承諾，秘書長，去年第1年實施，你們的檢討報告甚至「二二六六」，從2月一直公布到9月，可不可以承諾明年開始訂一個日期，什麼時候可以公布、一次公布？可不可以？"],["吳秘書長三龍：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：明年幾月開始公布？"],["李廳長釱任：明年2、3月應該可以公布。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，明年開始2月底前公布，可以嗎？"],["李廳長釱任：我們會盡力做，因為第一……"],["鍾委員佳濱：不能盡力啦！秘書長要承諾啊！明年起，今年國民法官的審理檢討，明年2月底前公布可以嗎？可以嘛！可以，好，那就好，謝謝。下一題，接下來國民法官法去年到底有多少案？什麼類型？"],["吳秘書長三龍：去年一共108案。"],["鍾委員佳濱：去年108案，我有準備，我告訴你有108案，你猜大概是什麼類型居多？"],["吳秘書長三龍：就是殺人啦，還有公共危險致死。"],["鍾委員佳濱：因故意犯罪而致死亡嘛！就是殺人嘛、公共危險致死嘛、傷人致死嘛，加起來將近9成啦！其中有一個叫做公共危險致死將近有超過3成，你知道什麼叫公共危險致死嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：酒駕。"],["鍾委員佳濱：嚴重的酒駕致死案，就是喝到爛醉如泥還去開車撞死人，這個也就是列入我們國民法官法。那請問一下，在這些案子當中，你認為這些酒駕，包括這些的，他們在進行司法辯護的時候，有得到足夠的辯護資源嗎？這108個案子，有沒有？因為我們國民法官法是讓檢辯對等，那這些人他們有得到我們國民法官法所賦予的必要的司法資源服務嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：都會有，應該都會有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不是應該都有，法律有規定，因為國民法官法第五條，就是說他可以要強制指定，對不對？在我們刑事訴訟法第三十一條，本刑為三年以上的就要強制在偵查中、有些情況就要來強制指定了。另外，這樣的條件也符合法律扶助法第五條的規定，最輕本刑三年以上就可以申請法律扶助，是不是？所以你認為這些國法案都可以申請法律扶助嗎？條件接近嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那你認為有多少案申請法律扶助？108個案子有多少申請法律扶助？你認為大概多少？"],["吳秘書長三龍：所以我們最近有跟法律……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以現在我問你，你判斷這108個有多少申請法律扶助？我告訴你，有99件，9成以上的國法案申請法律扶助，因為他的最輕本刑三年以上大概跟我們法律扶助是一致的。好了，但是你符合法律扶助就一定要申請嗎？符合法律扶助的案件、最輕本刑三年以上，這個嫌疑犯或被告通通都有來申請嗎，沒有啊！那為什麼國法案的通通都來申請，什麼原因？"],["吳秘書長三龍：一般都是經濟弱勢的原因。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有說酒駕致死都是經濟弱勢啦！我要告訴你原因，因為我們的國法案它的審理跟一般的訴訟案不一樣，它要集中，通常在5天內要把它審完，為什麼？原來的法律設計希望減輕國民法官的負擔，你總不能叫他請公假請兩個月、三個月，一審全部完畢，有時候一個庭要好幾個月，為了減輕國民法官的負擔，我們要求5天內執行。這跟我們一般的司法訴訟常態是不太一樣，如果律師來擔任辯護，一個月大概只能接4件，其他的案子要排掉嘛，對不對？我們來算一下，假設一般的律師3個月可以消化掉30件案件，一個案件大概律師行情多少？一庭5、6萬嘛，大概他1個月也有5、60萬的收入，大概是這樣子，請問如果我擔任國法案的法扶義務律師，可以給我多少錢？"],["吳秘書長三龍：7萬5。"],["鍾委員佳濱：最高7萬5，本來4萬5，你們調到最高可以7萬5。一般國法案去外面找律師要多少錢？如果律師這個月5天都要接國法案，一個月只能接4件，你覺得一般律師會收多少？有一個調查，要20萬到30萬，20萬到30萬他接3、4個案，才能夠讓他的投入跟他的收入相襯，所以為什麼一般的執業律師他不接國法案，為什麼？因為國法案審制的特殊性，所以通通跑到法扶來了，可是法扶只給多少？給7萬5，法扶的律師如果接了國法案，他大概那個月其他的案不好接啊！那他接4個法扶案、他只能領到多少？假設領滿了30萬，顯然跟一般律師的正常職業狀況的收入有間。所以我要請教您，你覺得國法案審理是不是相當昂貴？相對地，為什麼我說檢辯不對等？在國法案當中，你剛才說了，我們的檢察官編制充足啊！但是當事人去委任律師，律師的支出昂貴啊！所以一般的執業律師不接，那他們又符合法扶的要件，通通跑來找法扶，法扶只給7萬5，你說有哪一個傻瓜，為了公益做功德去接法扶的國法案？如果你是法扶的律師，你要接國法案嗎？你認不認為這個有必要做適度的調整？"],["吳秘書長三龍：所以就這個天花板，我們會提高啦！"],["鍾委員佳濱：天花板提高，我來告訴你，已經有一個叫做臺灣刑事辯護律師協會，它說國民法官案件缺乏吸引律師參與誘因及實務運作環境，司法院應正視制度之不足啊！意思說什麼？他們興趣缺缺啊！怎麼辦？你們怎麼解決？"],["吳秘書長三龍：就是在酬金部分我們就……"],["鍾委員佳濱：酬金這個部分，我希望今天就兩個結論，時間也到了，主席也很客氣，我就講兩個結論：第一，你是不是正式承諾，我們依據國民法官法第一百零五條，你必須提出年度的檢討報告，在次年的2月底前公布，可以嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：第二，這個檢討報告，必須包括對於這一年實施以來，包括了辯檢不對等，包括了律師參與這些準備的不足，以及一般的宣傳不足以讓民眾瞭解，以至於或者以為要花他的時間，雇主沒有給予公假，又或者說他有些人身安全問題，要加速宣傳。還有最重要的，你們檢討報告當中要針對目前絕大多數的國法案都會去運用我們的法扶，法扶律師的酬金應該適度地提高到有誘因的程度，同意嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：同意。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那我請教一下，你們的預算明年要編，對不對？今年有108案，你覺得明年大概有多少案？"],["吳秘書長三龍：大概會有200案。"],["鍾委員佳濱：會有200案，我告訴你，到民國115年開始，最輕本刑十年以上也要納入，到時候量會增加，所以你們要對於未來預算的成長，尤其在法扶，不管是200案，一個法扶如果是20萬，就編個2,000萬。2,000萬很多嗎？會不會很多？法扶幫助這200件的當事人有得到必要的法律扶助，會很多嗎？應該不會吧！所以請你們一定要在明年度的預算預估明年國法案的數量，給予必要的、相對的訴訟資源的編列，好不好？"],["吳秘書長三龍：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：可以嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鍾委員。","我們請登記第7位的翁曉玲委員發言。"]],"agend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法律也有規定因為國民法案第5條就是說它可以要強制指定 對不對那在我們的刑法 刑事署長第31條本刑而三年以上的就要強制在政法中有些情況就要強制的指定了那另外這樣的條件也符合法律輔助法第5條的規定最新本刑三年以上就可以申請法律輔助 是不是"},{"start":436.329,"end":454.297,"text":"所以你認為這些國法案都可以申請法律輔助嗎?條件接近嗎?那你認為有多少申請法律輔助?108個案子有多少申請法律輔助?你認為大概多少?我現在問你,你判斷這108個案子有多少申請法律輔助?"},{"start":458.715,"end":487.427,"text":"我告訴你齁 有99件啦九成以上的這個國審 國法案呢 申請法律輔助因為他的最低本刑三年以上 大概跟我們這個法律輔助是一致的好啦 但是你符合法律輔助就一定要申請嗎?符合法律輔助的案件 最低本刑三年以上 有這個嫌疑 嫌犯或被告有通通來申請嗎?沒有啊 那為什麼這個國法案的 這個都通通來申請?"},{"start":490.083,"end":517.483,"text":"什麼原因因為他一般都是經濟弱勢的沒有所有的酒駕致死的都是經濟弱勢啦我要告訴你原因啊因為我們的國法案他的審理跟一般的訴訟案不一樣他要集中通常在五天內要把它審完為什麼原來的法律設計希望減輕國民法官的負擔你總不能叫他請公假請兩個月三個月全部在審一審了全部完畢有時候一個庭啊要好幾個月啊"},{"start":518.483,"end":546.811,"text":"國民法官為檢定國民法官要求5天內執行那這跟我們一般的司法處長的常態不太一樣那如果法官律師來擔任辯護一個月大概只能接4件其他的案子要排掉嘛對不對那請問一下目前我們來算一下假設一般的律師一個三個月可以消化掉30件案件假設啦三個月消化30案件一個案件大概律師的行刑多少五六萬嘛一庭嘛"},{"start":547.551,"end":548.231,"text":"一般國法案去找律師要多少錢?"},{"start":569.656,"end":596.251,"text":"如果你律師這個月國法案你五天都要接國法案你一個月只能接事件你覺得一般律師會收多少有一個調查要20萬到30萬20萬到30萬他接三四個案他才能夠跟他的投入和收入相稱所以為什麼一般的職業律師他不接國法案為什麼因為國法案的審製的特殊性所以通通跑到法服來了可是法服給多少給7萬5"},{"start":598.228,"end":618.051,"text":"法無的律師如果接了國法案他那個月大概其他人不好接啊那他接4個法無案他只能領到多少假設領滿才30萬顯然跟一般的律師的正常的職業狀況的收入有見所以所以我要怎麼請教您你覺得國法案審理是不是相當昂貴"},{"start":619.502,"end":647.574,"text":"相對的為什麼說簡便不對等在國法案當中你剛說了我們的檢察官的編制充足啊但是當事人去委任律師律師的支出昂貴啊所以一般的職業律師不接啊那他們又符合法服的要件通通跑來找法服法服只給7萬5啊那你說有哪一個傻瓜為了公義做公德去接法服的這個國法案如果你是法服的律師你要接國法案嗎"},{"start":649.943,"end":675.402,"text":"那你認為這個有必要做適度的調整所以我們就這個天花板我們會提高天花板提高我還告訴你已經有一個叫做臺灣刑事辯護律師協會他說國民法官案件缺乏吸引律師參與誘因及實務運作環境司法院應正式制度之不足意思說什麼他們興趣缺缺啊怎麼辦你們怎麼解決"},{"start":680.952,"end":702.683,"text":"就是在籌金部分我們就籌金那這個部分我希望今天就兩個結論的時間也到了那麼主席很客氣我就講兩個結論第一你是不是正式承諾我們依據國民法官法第105條你必須年度的檢討報告在次年的2月底前公佈可以嗎"},{"start":704.393,"end":729.05,"text":"第二這個檢討報告必須包括對於這一年實施以來包括了變檢不對等包括了律師參與這些準備的不足以及一般的宣傳不足以讓民眾瞭解以至於或者以為要花他的時間僱主沒有給予工價又或者說他有些人身安全問題要加速宣傳還有最重要的你們檢討報告當中"},{"start":730.891,"end":733.432,"text":"同意嗎?同意。好,那我請教一下,你們的預算明年要編對不對?今年有108案,你覺得明年大概有多少案?"},{"start":755.301,"end":780.252,"text":"會有200案我告訴你到民國115年開始被最低本金10年以上也要納入啊到時候量會增加所以你們要對於未來的預算的成長尤其在法服如果是200案一個案子如果是20萬就編個2000萬2000萬很多嗎會不會很多法服幫助這2000萬200件的一個當事人有得到必要的法律輔助會很多嗎"},{"start":781.394,"end":781.494,"text":"主席"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}