{"error":false,"id":["149243"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149243,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149243","日期":"2024-03-04","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-23-2","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":2,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[23],"委員會代碼:str":["交通委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-04T11:24:40+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-04T11:35:23+08:00","影片長度":"00:10:43","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2dddc080118f4994ead3faa0e83a28976539f8ba9b0039caa7a60983c6007e13c4a15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡其昌","委員發言時間":"11:24:40 - 11:35:23","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員吳澤成列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月4日、6日及7日三天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":608,"blocks":[["蔡委員其昌：（11時24分）謝謝，麻煩主席請吳主委。"],["主席：請吳主委。"],["吳主任委員澤成：委員，您好。"],["蔡委員其昌：主委，早。我想大家都很關心2050的淨零轉型，2050要達到淨零碳排，我想全球在國際這些政界領袖大家共同努力底下，雖然大家都努力，但是很困難，真困難。蔡總統也宣示2050作為臺灣淨零碳排，所以國發會提出了淨零碳排轉型的路徑等等，其中12項關鍵戰略，我看了一下其中包括第8項的資源循環零廢氣，我也看到政府所提出的所謂關鍵項目當中無機材料及粒料，其中大概是公共工程委員會裡面要協助辦理的部分。基本上我知道主委這幾年其實已經有一些動作努力在做，但對我來講我都覺得其實我們應該想辦法合作讓它效率再提昇。我們知道循環經濟在談的其實就是世界上沒有垃圾這個東西啦，只在於我們的科技進步到哪裡或者是我們的處理成本有多高，如果處理成本不是很高，其實垃圾就是黃金，因為它是有效的資源。在這個架構底下，我只取其中一種例子，因為時間有限，我只取其中一種例子叫做瀝青混凝土，我們都要求瀝青混凝土一定要刨除之後再鋪設，結果你知道現在堆積在臺灣土地上的瀝青混凝土的這些廢料，大概有多少數量？"],["吳主任委員澤成：照業者的提供大概有465萬噸。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，這是公會提供的數字。"],["吳主任委員澤成：對。"],["蔡委員其昌：地方政府呢？地方政府還有沒有儲存？"],["吳主任委員澤成：我們現在已經要求全面做調查，到底量有多少，我已經答應業者要去全面清查出來。"],["蔡委員其昌：四百多萬公噸是保守估計，換言之有可能有五百萬、六百萬噸的刨除物，這個刨除物不是不可以再利用，事實上隨著科技，它的運用範圍可能可以更廣，換言之，透過技術上的研發、加工，它的強度也可以讓它更強，但是問題就來了，就是誰要來用它？也就是說如果我們談循環經濟，我們認為它事實上任何我們要追求達到淨零碳排的過程，其實任何事情的處理它都是產業，也就是我們一定要從產業的概念來思考這個問題而不是從垃圾的概念來思考這個問題，如果你要用垃圾的概念來思考這個問題，我認為它很難成功。我知道主委有公告所有地方政府工程的發包如果所謂瀝青混凝土的刨除物沒有辦法在工程裡面達到平衡，地方政府要編列預算給廠商，不可以叫廠商自行載回處理，我覺得這個是對，但是這個「對」只對一半，這個「對」只面對公會今天產生那麼多瀝青刨除物到處堆砌，我想主委也知道，這個堆砌物基本上在政府的都市計畫或政府相關土地規劃裡面又沒有足夠的空間來堆砌這個，因為堆砌這個對很多人來講叫做嫌惡，你家旁邊瀝青混凝土廢料堆積如山。可是如果我們從產業發展的角度來看，它其實是某一種產業的原料，它其實不是垃圾，但我們現在的架構裡面因為沒有產業鏈的思維，沒有產業發展的思維，所以我們當它叫做廢棄物的處理，我們概念上還沒有跳脫它是用產業的角度。我的意思是說，我建議主委面對做為瀝青的刨除業者，他們沒有地方堆砌也到處在陳情，他們也希望合法，希望政府能夠給他們堆砌的空間，就算你補貼他錢，就算地方政府沒有辦法在工程裡面讓刨除物去平衡，給他錢還是沒有地方堆，堆了放在那裡三年、五年、十年，對周遭來講，大家又嫌惡它。這就是我講的做一半，雖然我們有嘗試解決，但我覺得這個解決的方法其實應該更加認真的來思索。","我也想到，比如我們的葉副主委其實對產業很瞭解，我們應該整體，比如請葉副主委來思考，工程會可以扮演什麼角色？我們從內政部和環保署在這些所謂的無機材料和粒料裡面，他們是主辦單位，還有兩個，工程會都是協辦。我剛講過，如果用產業的角度來思考這個問題，那麼它應該統合起來，也就是說到底這四百多萬噸要放在哪裡？它的內容物是什麼？產業可以在這個平台上會不會有產業願意投入將這樣的粒料進行加工，或者是加入什麼樣的東西，它的強度可已變成怎麼樣？換言之，它其實是一個產業。接著，這些東西要怎麼收？它其實是一個平台，也就是說我想做這項加工，但我要到哪裡收？這也要政府的力量，不然這有刨除物、那有刨除物，他要怎麼去收？所以架了平台透過研發和管理，最後就是我們的制度面，也就說政府沒有在法規上規定，廠商就不一定會使用，除非你的價格非常有優勢。所以它其實是一個需要政府統籌的事情，如果沒有政府在這裡面扮演角色，這個事情其實是做不來的。我的意思是哲良副主委對產業很了解，他可以試圖地的統籌，我看都把工程會列為協助單位而已，並不是由你們主導，我希望這應該有一個高度、有一個計畫，要從產業發展的角度來思考這個問題，主委的看法怎麼樣？"],["吳主任委員澤成：這個問題會造成的原因，第一個是政府在執行上面的偏差造成的結果，今天要收尾還是要政府，我同意委員的看法。"],["蔡委員其昌：對。"],["吳主任委員澤成：當初的規定是有問題的，他要求人家刨除的瀝青，業者統統要買回去，然後這個工程才能夠用60%，所以一定有40%會繼續存在那邊。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，它會越來越多。"],["吳主任委員澤成：累積到現在這麼多，這部分應該由政府來解決，我已經答應瀝青業者我們全面的檢視、調查到底有多少，然後怎麼樣消化這個東西，正確的做法不應該讓每個工程讓他們買回去然後囤在那邊，應該各該工程從設計就要解決掉，能夠刨除再利用，不能再利用的話可以做為底層、基層填方料，本工程就要把它消化掉而不是累積在那邊以後變成很多、一大堆再來解決，那是以前錯誤的，現在我想導正這個事情。"],["蔡委員其昌：我剛講過主委已經注意到了，只是我覺得要加入產業的概念，就是怎麼再產銷、透過什麼樣的方式可以把這個平台架起來，以後就變成市場機制的問題，但是這個階段因為累積歷史的共業，越堆越多，現在已經嚇死人，變成環境的問題，很多人都來陳情、檢舉，堆積如山，你叫業者改善，業者也很希望政府能夠提供土地。在這種層次思考循環經濟，在這種層次思考這些所謂的廢棄粒料，這是對2050淨零碳排最大的污辱，這是很好笑、可笑的事情。"],["吳主任委員澤成：他們確實有提出要我們協助他們找地方讓他們放這個東西，我個人看法這樣不對，應該要把這些東西消化掉。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，這不能解決，這只是做一半而已，在那邊替他們找地方只是做一半而已，我們在談淨零碳排這些問題都要解決，我們要達到2050淨零碳排，首要工作就是把循環經濟做好，沒有垃圾這個東西，就看我們怎麼去規劃、設計，它是管理、規劃、設計的問題，然後是該有的法規，主委，如果要改相關的法規，我希望工程會能夠儘速提出。"],["吳主任委員澤成：好。"],["蔡委員其昌：我會持續的針對循環經濟的問題，因為只有8分鐘太短了，今天我就先提出其中一個項目。"],["吳主任委員澤成：好，我們來努力。"],["蔡委員其昌：謝謝主委。"],["主席：蔡委員發言完畢，現在請許智傑委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":254,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-2","speakers":["李昆澤","林沛祥","黃健豪","廖先翔","徐富癸","林國成","林俊憲","魯明哲","何欣純","陳素月","邱若華","游顥","蔡其昌","許智傑","陳俊宇","邱志偉"],"page_start":211,"meetingDate":["2024-03-04"],"gazette_id":"1130901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員吳澤成列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130901_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.16096875,"end":8.012843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.19846875,"end":9.430343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.83846875,"end":18.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.49221875,"end":18.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.35284375,"end":21.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.37784375,"end":24.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.78659375,"end":28.735343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.17409375,"end":32.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.970968750000004,"end":35.299718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.75534375,"end":36.90284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.409093750000004,"end":45.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.28534375,"end":48.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.322843750000004,"end":54.570968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.127843750000004,"end":69.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.23096875,"end":84.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.73909375000001,"end":86.32971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.78534375000001,"end":102.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.66034375000001,"end":113.17784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.68409375,"end":117.19409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.05471875,"end":120.51846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.72096875000001,"end":122.86409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.31971875,"end":125.91846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.62721875000001,"end":128.04471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.97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主委各位我想主委大家都很關心這個2050的淨零轉型2050要達到淨零碳排我想這個全球在國際這些政界領袖大家共同努力底下雖然大家都努力啦但很困難"},{"start":37.756,"end":53.793,"text":"蔡總統也宣誓2050作為台灣淨零碳排所以國安會提出了淨零碳排轉型的路徑等等其中12項關鍵戰略我看了一下其中包括第8項的資源循環零廢棄"},{"start":55.194,"end":68.837,"text":"那我也看到政府所提出這個所謂的關鍵項目當中無機材料及利料其中這個大概是公共工程委員會裡面要協助辦理的部分"},{"start":70.27,"end":84.571,"text":"那基本上我知道主委對於其實這幾年已經有一些動作努力在做但是對我來講我都覺得這個其實我們應該想辦法來合作讓他效率再提升"},{"start":87.039,"end":102.485,"text":"我們知道循環經濟其實在談的就是說其實世界上是沒有垃圾這個東西啦只在於說我們的科技進步到哪裡或者我們處理成本有多高如果處理成本不是很高其實垃圾就是黃金嘛因為它是有效的資源"},{"start":103.875,"end":127.9,"text":"在這個架構底下,我只取中一種例子,因為時間有限,我只取其中一種例子,叫做濾清混泥土。我們都要求濾清混泥土一定要刨除之後再鋪設。那主委你知道現在堆積在台灣土地上面的濾清混泥土的這些廢料大概有多少數量?"},{"start":133.018,"end":142.654,"text":"按照業者提供大概有465萬噸對這個是工會提供的數字那地方政府呢地方政府還有沒有儲存"},{"start":144.96,"end":160.945,"text":"現在我已經要求前面做調查到底量多少我已經答應業者要去前面清查出來400多萬公噸是保守估計換言之有可能500萬、600萬噸的刨儲物這個刨儲物不是不可以再利用"},{"start":169.819,"end":179.705,"text":"事實上隨著科技它的運用範圍可能可以更廣換言之透過技術上的研發加工它的強度也可以讓它更強"},{"start":181.121,"end":206.142,"text":"但是問題就來了就是誰要來用它也就是說如果我們談循環經濟我們認為它事實上任何我們要追求達到淨零碳排的過程其實任何事情的處理它都是產業啦也就是我們一定要從產業的概念來思考這個問題而不是從垃圾的概念來思考這個問題如果你用垃圾的概念來思考這個問題我認為它很難成功"},{"start":209.685,"end":219.332,"text":"就像我知道主委有公告這個所有的地方政府工程的發包一定如果這個所謂的"},{"start":224.432,"end":238.658,"text":"這個濾清混凝土的刨除物如果沒有辦法在工程裡面達到平衡地方政府要編列預算給廠商不可以叫廠商事先自己再去引導處理啦我覺得這個是對但是這個對齁只對一半"},{"start":243.139,"end":271.531,"text":"這個對紙面對工會今天產生那麼多的濾清刨除物到處堆砌主委我想你也知道這個堆砌物基本上我們在政府的都市計畫或者政府相關土地的規劃裡面其實又沒有足夠的空間來堆砌這個因為堆砌這個對很多人來講這個叫嫌惡你家的旁邊濾清粉泥土的廢料堆積如山"},{"start":272.901,"end":298.227,"text":"可是呢如果我們從產業發展的角度它其實是某一種產業的原料它其實不是垃圾但是我們現在的架構裡面因為產業鏈沒有產業鏈的思維沒有產業發展的思維所以我們當它叫做廢棄物的處理我們概念上還沒有跳脫它是用產業的角度所以我的意思就是說我建議主委"},{"start":299.315,"end":322.279,"text":"面對你看齁作為這個濾清的刨除業者他們沒有地方堆砌也到處在陳請他們也希望合法希望政府能夠給他們堆砌的空間那就算你補貼他錢就算地方政府沒有辦法在工程裡面讓刨除去平衡給他錢還是沒有地方堆啦"},{"start":323.579,"end":348.791,"text":"對了放在那裡三年五年十年對周遭的這個來講大家又嫌惡他啦所以這個就是我講的這個做一半啦就雖然我們有嘗試解決但是我覺得這個解決的方法其實應該更加認真來思索那我剛剛我也想到嘛譬如說你那個我們的那個葉副主委啊他其實對產業很了解"},{"start":349.639,"end":375.9,"text":"就是說我們應該整體比如說請業務主委來思考工程會可以扮演什麼角色因為我們從我們的內政部跟環保署在這些所謂的無機材料及利料裡面他們是主辦單位那還有兩個我們工程會都是協辦那我剛剛講過如果用產業的角度來思考這個問題那他應該統合起來也就是說"},{"start":377.25,"end":395.016,"text":"到底這400多萬噸他放在哪裡他的內容物是什麼那內容物是什麼產業可以在這個平台上會不會有產業願意投入來將這樣的力量來進行加工或者加入什麼樣的東西他的強度可以變成什麼樣"},{"start":396.178,"end":423.757,"text":"所以換言之它其實是一個產業那接著呢這些東西要怎麼收它其實是一個平台也就是說我想要來做這一行加工但是我要去收啦這個也要政府的力量啊不然你這裡有刨廚房、那裡有刨廚房它要怎麼去收所以架了平台透過研發跟管理那最後就是我們的制度面了也就是說你政府沒有在法規上面去規定"},{"start":425.153,"end":439.799,"text":"市場商他就不一定會贏嘛他就不一定會使用除非你的價格非常有優勢所以他其實是一個需要政府來統籌的事情如果我們沒有政府在這裡面扮演角色這個事情其實是做不來的"},{"start":440.575,"end":465.234,"text":"所以我的意思是說我們澤良副主委他其實對產業了解所以他可以試圖的統籌因為我看都把工程會列為協助單位而已並不是你們來主導所以我會希望說這個應該有一個高度有一個計畫所以要從產業發展的角度來思考這個問題"},{"start":466.96,"end":478.622,"text":"主委你的看法怎麼樣這個問題我講第一個會造成的原因就是政府在執行上面的偏差造成了一個結果"},{"start":479.946,"end":498.04,"text":"那麼今天要收尾還需要政府同意委員的看法。那麼當初的規定是有問題的。他要求人家刨除的濾青你越西越左通通要買回去。然後你這個工程才能夠用60%,所以一定有40%會繼續存在那邊。"},{"start":499.921,"end":519.202,"text":"他會越來越多啦累積到現在這麼多所以這個部分應該從政府來解決我已經答應歷經業者我們全面的來檢視、調查到底有多少然後怎麼來消化這個東西正確做法不應該讓每一個工程那麼讓他買回去蹲在那邊"},{"start":521.084,"end":522.145,"text":"現在我想導正這個事情"},{"start":543.303,"end":566.716,"text":"所以我想我剛剛講過主委你已經注意到了只是說我覺得要加入產業的概念就是怎麼在產銷那透過什麼樣的方式可以把這個平台架起來以後就變成市場機制的問題但是這個階段因為累積歷史的這個工業啦越賺越多啦現在已經怕死人他已經不再是他不再是那個他是環境的問題啊"},{"start":567.717,"end":581.246,"text":"很多人都來陳請檢舉堆積爐山堆積爐山你去跟業者叫他們改善他們說他們也很希望看政府可不可以提供給他們土地所以在這種層次思考"},{"start":582.509,"end":603.758,"text":"循環經濟在這種程式思考這些所謂廢棄力量這個是對2050淨零碳牌最大的侮辱這是很好笑可笑的事情他確實有提出來說叫我們協助他找地方給他放出這個東西我個人看法這樣是不對的應該要把這些東西把它消耗掉這不會改過來了這做一半而已"},{"start":604.258,"end":609.424,"text":"因為我們在談經營攤牌其實這些問題都要解決這個其實就是我們達到2050經營攤牌其實首要工作就是把循環經濟做好沒有垃圾這個東西就看我們怎麼去規劃跟設計它是管理、設計、規劃的問題"},{"start":623.001,"end":623.121,"text":"主委﹖"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}