{"error":false,"id":["149248"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149248,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149248","日期":"2024-03-04","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-23-2","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":2,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[23],"委員會代碼:str":["交通委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-04T11:35:35+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-04T11:45:07+08:00","影片長度":"00:09:32","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2ddd579483fb5ff76313faa0e83a28976539f8ba9b0039caa7a6a502e9028cb3ba395ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許智傑","委員發言時間":"11:35:35 - 11:45:07","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員吳澤成列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月4日、6日及7日三天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":632,"blocks":[["許委員智傑：（11時35分）謝謝主席，我們還是請主委。"],["主席：請吳主委。"],["吳主任委員澤成：委員，您好。"],["許委員智傑：主委，我一直在關心的就是我們的最有利標，我們的效率好不好，也觀察了很多年，這點要肯定工程會的成果。我這邊列出了從108年到112年，我們持續關心，這個比例不管是決標件數還是決標金額的比例也都有逐漸的提高，這個部分也要向主委、工程會的同仁表示鼓勵和感謝。當然今年的數據比例還是提高，但金額為什麼會下降？決標件數為什麼會下降？這個我有去瞭解，以前是10萬以上就有統計，現在改成15萬，所以雖然決標件數減少，因為金額提高，不過總比例還是增加的，對這部分還是給予肯定。","另外，我為什麼一直要求讓政風、主計可以去參與，事實上我們可以看到最有利標最大的好處是量身訂做，讓我們穿最適合的衣服，它最大的壞處就是有些公務員不敢承擔，或有些公務員有一點不一樣、不好的想法，這是它的優點和缺點。對這方面，政風組及主計都夠參與，至少表示他們有在旁邊看，第一，你不必怕，第二，你也不能胡亂來，這部分因為他們的參與事實上也有提高的狀況，我們當然也要表示肯定。我看今年政風、主計參與的比例是降低的，以前都每年提高，今年是降低的，往好的方面想是大家都有按部就班、都就緒了，該承擔的承擔，該防弊的防弊，也越來越好了，所以比例可以慢慢的降低了，對這方面主委的看法是怎麼樣？"],["吳主任委員澤成：這方面很謝謝委員一再地提醒我們去做這件事，我個人非常認同，我覺得讓他們參加有安內和讓外面的人放心的作用非常重要。向委員報告，我對很多重大案件都主動要求，像台北案件填土方，非常重要的案件，我主動要求港務公司成立廉政平台，讓他們加入。"],["許委員智傑：就是說我們這個做法其實是正面的做法。"],["吳主任委員澤成：正面。"],["許委員智傑：我已經觀察、要求了很多年，也希望主委能夠一起重視。"],["吳主任委員澤成：我們來鼓勵。"],["許委員智傑：包括我們的同仁，就是說這個方向如何讓最有利標可以買到最適合的衣服，又是最好的，又是價格合理的，又不會讓人家亂作手的。我想這個原則對於國家的公共工程的招標也好、各方面的執行也好，會有正面的幫助。但是我發現公共工程來標的越來越少，現場也一直在說缺工的問題，這個部分，我們去看從業人員的年紀，勞動力短缺和人口老化，大概45歲到64歲中間是比較集中的，30歲到39歲是比較少的，20歲到29歲不知道你們那邊有沒有統計資料，我猜一定更少。如果要提高年輕人願意擔任營造業或相關的勞力工作，事實上很多人都不願意來，主委有沒有什麼方法？"],["吳主任委員澤成：根據我們的瞭解，現在我們主要勞工還是靠國內勞工，大概有三十幾萬，年齡也一直在上漲，年輕人越來越少，這是事實，現在我們採取幾個措施，除了暫時性外勞來補充之外，根本性的解決希望能夠減少工程對勞工的需求，比如改為預鑄等等，將工項減掉。"],["許委員智傑：工法。"],["吳主任委員澤成：工法，減少勞工的需求。"],["許委員智傑：這是一個方法。我另外提一個，請主委參考。你可以看到金質獎是工程會一個相當重要的頒獎典禮，這幾年也看到，109年、110年和111年都有增加一些項目，111年個人貢獻職人獎，這個我滿感興趣的，這讓一輩子，就像日本職人獎很興盛，年輕人要得到這個職人獎現在還有困難，我想是不是有機會我們來增加20歲到40歲以增加其價值和榮譽感，比如有人很會釘板模，我們就頒獎最佳男模，有人很會綁鐵，我們就頒獎最佳男鐵，也就是鼓勵年輕人參與。我們可以看到很多年輕人寧願到餐廳端盤子，一個月賺兩萬多塊，不願意到現場做最佳男模、最佳男鐵，一個月可以賺7萬塊，如果很努力的賺錢，一個月賺7萬塊沒有問題。其實白天做得很辛苦，但回家洗澡後晚上出門穿得很時髦也可以做最佳男模、最佳男鐵，這種看法不知道主委是否認同？"],["吳主任委員澤成：我們現在的做法和委員所講的方向差不多一致，一個是給他尊榮感，第二個是給他證照制度，給他技術士證照。"],["許委員智傑：技術證照他們一定會去考，這個沒問題，因為考上了才有資格。"],["吳主任委員澤成：讓他有尊榮、讓他有保障，也提高他的薪水。"],["許委員智傑：我的具體建議是111年增辦的個人貢獻職人獎可能年長者會居多。"],["吳主任委員澤成：我們也有鼓勵青年。"],["許委員智傑：如何給予年輕人類似這樣的鼓勵方式，給他們比較有榮譽感，取得工作的價值，這樣年輕人比較願意投入，也可以增加年輕人的一個缺工的問題並給予協助。"],["吳主任委員澤成：我們現在正在努力的朝這個方向走。"],["許委員智傑：我要跟你說的是金質獎、職人奧斯卡，你可以思考的是分類，尤其是營造業很辛苦，所以我覺得最佳男模和最佳男鐵不錯。"],["吳主任委員澤成：這需要鼓勵，我每次到工地……"],["許委員智傑：包括名稱，名稱要有趣、有價值又有趣，那他會感覺他得到工程會金質獎頒獎最佳男模，其實是釘板模的。但這種榮譽感不一樣，我做鳳山市長時，會跟清潔隊員說其實你們很重要，沒有你們整個城市會很臭。"],["吳主任委員澤成：沒有錯。"],["許委員智傑：有人說你是倒垃圾的好像是在否定你，好像這個職業有分貴賤，其實你們很重要，你們要有那個光榮感和榮譽感，人家這樣講是他們不對，我們自己要肯定自我，自我肯定很重要，但政府能夠肯定的話，榮譽感會加倍、加很多倍，因此我希望主委可以在金質獎再研究一下。"],["吳主任委員澤成：好。"],["許委員智傑：我很希望下次我就可以看到最佳男模和最佳男鐵，這樣是鼓勵年輕人參與營造業，好不好？"],["吳主任委員澤成：好。"],["許委員智傑：我很希望下次可以看到，希望主委一起努力。"],["吳主任委員澤成：好，謝謝。"],["許委員智傑：謝謝。"],["主席：許委員發言完畢。","現在請林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員不在。","現在請王鴻薇委員、王鴻薇委員、王鴻薇委員不在。","現在請鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員、鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員、鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員不在。","現在請洪孟楷委員、洪孟楷委員、洪孟楷委員不在。","現在請楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員不在。","現在請謝衣鳯委員、謝衣鳯委員、謝衣鳯委員不在。","現在請陳雪生委員、陳雪生委員、陳雪生委員不在。","現在請林德福委員、林德福委員、林德福委員不在。","現在請鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員不在。","現在請麥玉珍委員、麥玉珍委員、麥玉珍委員不在。","現在請邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員不在。","現在請蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員不在。","現在請馬文君委員、馬文君委員、馬文君委員不在。","現在請王美惠委員、王美惠委員、王美惠委員不在。","現在請陳俊宇委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":254,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-2","speakers":["李昆澤","林沛祥","黃健豪","廖先翔","徐富癸","林國成","林俊憲","魯明哲","何欣純","陳素月","邱若華","游顥","蔡其昌","許智傑","陳俊宇","邱志偉"],"page_start":211,"meetingDate":["2024-03-04"],"gazette_id":"1130901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員吳澤成列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130901_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.10096875,"end":13.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.88534375,"end":14.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.31534375,"end":16.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.563468750000002,"end":21.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.58034375,"end":22.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.27221875,"end":23.301593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.11159375,"end":28.414718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.785968750000002,"end":30.574718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.367843750000002,"end":33.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.494093750000005,"end":35.299718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.48534375,"end":38.860343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.978468750000005,"end":47.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.28096875,"end":54.486593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.60471875,"end":63.750968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.22346875000001,"end":67.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.75034375,"end":71.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.51346875,"end":74.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.51721875,"end":85.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.09346875,"end":87.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.23659375000001,"end":156.49596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.96846875,"end":161.98034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.01409375,"end":163.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.03909375,"end":166.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.51971875,"end":167.11034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.54909375,"end":168.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.01721875,"end":171.05909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.41346875000002,"end":173.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.57346875000002,"end":177.42096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.64096875,"end":173.97846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.74159375000002,"end":178.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.07471875000002,"end":179.83409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.40784375,"end":181.50471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.65659375,"end":183.22596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.41159375,"end":185.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.11159375000003,"end":186.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.93846875,"end":188.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.28846875000002,"end":189.99284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.32221875000002,"end":188.79471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.89159375,"end":190.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.00534375,"end":195.13971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.05534375000002,"end":195.49409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.49409375000002,"end":202.68284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.61534375000002,"end":203.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.96971875000003,"end":229.98659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.93159375000002,"end":233.49659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.00284375,"end":234.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.03221875000003,"end":235.55534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.94346875000002,"end":236.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.78721875000002,"end":239.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.24221875,"end":244.04346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.08971875,"end":268.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.69784375,"end":270.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.95909375,"end":271.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.76909375,"end":274.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.02596875,"end":279.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.02096875,"end":280.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.98284375000003,"end":283.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.37909375000004,"end":284.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.94409375000004,"end":293.08221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.41971875,"end":295.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.55471875,"end":293.67284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.18721875,"end":2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