{"error":false,"id":["149293"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149293,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149293","日期":"2024-03-04","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-15-2","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":2,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[15],"委員會代碼:str":["內政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-04T12:37:13+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-04T12:49:28+08:00","影片長度":"00:12:15","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2ddd252b2622c16d29804df0e2384efaf28bf8ba9b0039caa7a68259a7d79b7de1fc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李柏毅","委員發言時間":"12:37:13 - 12:49:28","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請海洋委員會主任委員、大陸委員會主任委員、國防部及海軍司令部參謀長就「金門撞船案:翻船執法過程及後續處理」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":1219,"blocks":[["李委員柏毅：（12時37分）謝謝！我們請海巡署周署長。"],["主席：有請周署長。"],["李委員柏毅：謝謝署長！其實剛剛在程序發言的時候我就想請你上來說明，因為從這個事件發生之後、從這個專案報告裡面，其實我們知道海巡署對於這個專報名稱是有意見的，而這個意見在哪裡？是在於「撞船」跟「執法」跟你現在正在談判的過程有相當絕對的影響，但是你有意見的這個過程當然是必須透過海委會的主委即透過管委員，而管委員必須要跟我們內政委員會的召委來溝通，同時管委員也有責任讓我們全國的國人知道我們這個專案報告的內容是什麼，這些種種的時間差造成今天早上內政委員會大家有一些意見不一致，甚至對於目前這個專案報告的名稱大家還是有一些不同的意見，這個事情的主因是在這裡，是不是可以請署長說明一下，撞船這個調查報告以及取締非法的調查報告內容，對於我們的談判過程大概會造成怎麼樣的影響？"],["周副主任委員美伍：謝謝委員！我要說明之前要先強調這是我們海巡署的立場，所以可能……"],["李委員柏毅：海巡署如果沒有這個立場，對我們第一線執法的人員會非常不公平。"],["周副主任委員美伍：這是我們海巡署的立場，對於召委出的這個題目，我們海巡署用這樣子一個題目來報告，我個人對於這件事情剛剛已經對召委表示正式的抱歉，非常抱歉！但我們的考量只有一個，即我們是正當的執法，是在取締這個越界的快艇，它是三無船舶，它是一個違法的行為。另外……"],["李委員柏毅：好，署長在剛剛的說明裡面也提到其實我們跟對岸的海警有協議，也就是說當這些三無船出現在我們的海域的時候是我們來取締嘛！"],["周副主任委員美伍：當然。"],["李委員柏毅：它如果跑過去的時候，是不是我們會聯絡對方的海警來取締？"],["周副主任委員美伍：他們會取締。"],["李委員柏毅：所以是在還沒有發生之前、還沒有跟對岸的海警有這些溝通之前就發生這件意外，是不是？"],["周副主任委員美伍：當然。我也要跟委員說明一下，外界有很多的報導說我們在這整個過程當中都沒有跟對岸的海巡聯絡，但其實我們在這過程當中一直都有跟我們原來協同執法的單位保持聯繫，同時查證這些船員的名字、籍資，詢問這個船的狀況以及我們現在救援的狀況，我們一直在告知對方，因為這是我們過去一貫的作法。"],["李委員柏毅：所以在您指揮要去取締、要去驅逐或是要登船檢查的時候，我們的勤指中心同時也在通知對岸的海警嗎？"],["周副主任委員美伍：我們當地的海巡隊隊長親自通知對方我們現在的進度、現在做到什麼樣的狀況，在我們沒有找到第4位的時候，對方曾有一度要求要派直升機過來加入救援。"],["李委員柏毅：我們可以派直升機過來加入救援？"],["周副主任委員美伍：他們希望能夠派直升機過來救援，但是我們就在那個當下，3點50分……"],["李委員柏毅：當然這是假設啦！如果真的有必要的話我們也會派，對不對？"],["周副主任委員美伍：他們會派來，但是我們就在那個當下，3點50分的時候，找到第4位溺水者並立刻送醫，且在第一時間就通知對岸已經找到這4位溺水的人。"],["李委員柏毅：署長，我這樣說明一下，對這個事件，我們兩岸也就是我們海巡署跟對方海警的目標跟我們目前執法的對象、尺度其實是一樣的，只是發生在我們的海域是由我們來執行，如果發生在他們的海域，就算是我們的漁船有相關的狀況也會由他們來執行，這是沒有錯的，對不對？"],["周副主任委員美伍：我剛剛已經說明了很多次，這個聯合協同執法我們已經執行了一、二十年，雙方都已經很有默契，對方跟我們聯繫的單位叫做海洋執法支隊，當天的情形，他們的對口就是我們的海巡隊跟他們的海洋執法支隊兩方一直保持聯繫，對於這個狀況一直有告知對方。"],["李委員柏毅：從你的回應我可以知道，雙方的溝通是順暢的。"],["周副主任委員美伍：非常順暢。"],["李委員柏毅：是隨時可以共同來做這個打擊的。"],["周副主任委員美伍：我們也希望不要因為這一件事情……"],["李委員柏毅：但是今天會在這邊那麼敏感的原因是因為發生這個事件之後，造成對方最近海警也增加了，他們的海監船也增加了，甚至他的噸位也增加了，就是有點升高緊張的局勢，但是在面對他們升高緊張局勢的同時，我們一定要給我們的海巡人員最大的依靠，我們一定要給海巡人員最大的後盾，要堅持取締非法的行動，要力挺我們海巡人員，這是我們必須要去做的事情。"],["周副主任委員美伍：是，這是我們一定要做的。"],["李委員柏毅：署長先請回，我想邀請海委會主委以及陸委會主委一起上台，有一個網路上看到的你們的對話要請教。"],["主席：請兩位主委。謝謝！我們先請兩位一起上台。"],["李委員柏毅：先請管主委。"],["主席：先請管主委。"],["李委員柏毅：抱歉！請邱主委先在旁邊聽一下。我看到一段對話，這個對話的內容其實非常的惡意，我想先把這份對話資料交給管主委。請問主委，你在對話裡面說「中國兩個漁民該死，越界不撞他們的船，他們會越來越囂張」，請問這是你嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：不可能！這絕對不是我會講的話。"],["李委員柏毅：你的LINE的圖案是這樣嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：不是，這應該是我很年輕的時候了。"],["李委員柏毅：你很年輕那時候跟中國兩個漁民沒有關係吧？"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，所以我認為這是認知作戰的一部分，這整件事情發生以來，一直把我沒有講的話塞進我的嘴巴，然後把我建構成好像一個妖魔鬼怪一樣。"],["李委員柏毅：冷血！是不是？"],["管主任委員碧玲：就像我今天講過的，連國內三大報之一的一個大報的社論都可以說我要求海巡要對中國的海警開火，這個真的只能用無以復加的地步來形容，一個人的形象可以在短期之內眾口鑠金，用這樣的語言淹沒他，然後把他建構成是一個罪犯，一個冷血的人，這一次我自己就感同身受，這是其中之一。"],["李委員柏毅：管主委，你力挺海巡署，除了對不要用「撞船」這個詞來做海巡署的報告我給你肯定之外，目前所有的報導包含這個認知作戰，都把你塑造成希望中國漁民該死這種非常冷血的形象，我想這邊必須要提出說明，臺灣、我們海委會的主委並不是這個用意，可以在這邊特別來做出這個說明之外……"],["管主任委員碧玲：一路以來，我一方面支持跟堅持捍衛我們海巡依法行政執法，對於家屬的撫慰、亡者的安寧，我是盡所有的力量，我們舉辦法會，我們安置靈堂，我們的同仁去拜飯，持續到今天完全沒有停止。"],["李委員柏毅：謝謝管主委，請回座。","接下來要請教陸委會邱主委，現在海委會、海巡署站在第一線，面對對岸或者是這種認知作戰要拉高兩岸的緊張程度，面對這種要讓外界認為臺灣主戰，要讓外界認為臺灣的海委會主委很殘忍，對於我們漁民越界他們怎麼樣這種認知作戰，我想陸委會是不是也應該跟相關單位做一些比較全面性的討論？做出到底片面的去改變目前金廈海域執法狀況的是誰？臺灣的陸委會到底對這件事情的態度為何？我們希望怎麼樣維持和平？我們的取締方式是和平的取締，但是發生了意外，我們還是要力挺我們海巡人員的這些說明。"],["邱主任委員太三：確實，感謝委員的質詢。我大概有三個面向，我想長期以來中國對我們的認知作戰不是只有在這個領域，所有領域基本上都有在做認知作戰，那我想這個報紙或者是我們國人也大概都相當的了解。第二個是我們必須要感謝在今天這樣的一個質詢裡，我們所有朝野立委都支持力挺海巡署，不過對委員剛剛提到的認知作戰，我想在這裡跟各位委員和所有媒體做個提醒，希望大家小心，因為國台辦在第二天的記者會裡就用了所謂「這是惡意撞船事件」、我們的海巡署是「暴力執法」及他要要求賠償的措辭。我們的地檢署當然也即時發布了新聞稿，在新聞稿裡面已經一再敘明說檢察官也用證人的身分對兩人製作兩份訊問筆錄，並且命他具結，該兩人均表示對海巡隊的執法程序沒有意見。在檢察官還在調查的過程中，我希望國人不要對海巡署給予過度的苛責，這種執法的過程確實很難避免一些意外的發生，更何況我想國台辦先前的記者會大概已經在鋪陳他後續的這些認知作戰，所以我們國人如果真的大家要挺海巡署，我們真的在用語上可能要稍微斟酌一下。"],["李委員柏毅：是，謝謝主委，我想這個也關係到後續談判相關的所有要件。我剛剛也很高興聽到周署長和我們朝野共同挺我們海巡，另外就是我們海巡其實跟對岸都在打擊這個三無船，我們實在沒有必要去拉高這個緊張情勢，我們也都主張和平，而且我們在執法的過程也都主張和平，所以在拉高緊張的人是誰，在破壞和平現狀以及拉高緊張以及增派這些海警、海監還有行政船隻的人是誰，我想都是對岸，這個有需要我們再做進一步的溝通，讓兩岸可以更加平和地來解決這件事情的爭端。謝謝大家！"],["邱主任委員太三：謝謝委員。"],["主席：非常謝謝李柏毅委員的質詢，也謝謝主委。","繼續我們請麥玉珍委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":328,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-2","speakers":["高金素梅","傅崐萁","陳雪生","王美惠","洪孟楷","蘇巧慧","李柏毅","麥玉珍","徐欣瑩","丁學忠","許宇甄","張智倫","黃建賓","牛煦庭","張宏陸","黃捷","吳琪銘","沈伯洋","羅智強","賴士葆","吳沛憶","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳冠廷","楊瓊瓔","王鴻薇","張啓楷"],"page_start":227,"meetingDate":["2024-03-04"],"gazette_id":"1130501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130501_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請海洋委員會主任委員、大陸委員會主任委員、國防部及海軍司令部參謀長就「金門撞船案：\n翻船執法過程及後續處理」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130501_00018"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":0.03096875,"end":3.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.57471875,"end":4.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9.24471875,"end":10.35846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10.45971875,"end":16.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":17.04096875,"end":25.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":25.714718750000003,"end":28.34721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":28.617218750000003,"end":29.882843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":30.08534375,"end":32.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":32.81909375,"end":35.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":36.04221875,"end":38.134718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":38.674718750000004,"end":52.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":52.54596875,"end":57.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":58.01346875,"end":58.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":58.789718750000006,"end":73.69034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":74.07846875,"end":75.58034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":75.88409375,"end":77.26784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":77.74034375000001,"end":92.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":91.57784375,"end":91.64534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":92.05034375000001,"end":100.06596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":99.94784375,"end":103.27221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":101.97284375000001,"end":104.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":104.47034375000001,"end":108.25034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":105.56721875000001,"end":108.06471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":108.38534375,"end":113.58284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.02159375000001,"end":120.13034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.40034375,"end":122.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.06659375000001,"end":124.97346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":125.58096875000001,"end":127.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":128.11221875,"end":133.52909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":132.88784375,"end":139.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.64721875,"end":134.67659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":140.21159375000002,"end":144.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":145.29096875000002,"end":146.47221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":146.57346875000002,"end":146.96159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":146.96159375000002,"end":151.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":151.53471875,"end":156.25971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":156.51284375,"end":159.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":159.63471875000002,"end":160.10721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":160.52909375000002,"end":161.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":161.15346875,"end":163.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":163.76909375,"end":166.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":166.46909375,"end":169.79346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":169.92846875,"end":172.20659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":173.10096875000002,"end":192.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.43284375000002,"end":183.58034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":191.42721875,"end":201.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":202.00784375,"end":204.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":204.89346875,"end":205.61909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":206.34471875000003,"end":207.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":207.69471875000002,"end":210.69846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":211.28909375,"end":211.96409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":212.35221875000002,"end":219.06846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":219.50721875000002,"end":222.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":220.87409375000001,"end":229.34534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":228.38346875000002,"end":231.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":229.81784375,"end":237.68159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":238.05284375000002,"end":242.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":242.45721875,"end":245.56221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":245.61284375000002,"end":245.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":245.91659375,"end":245.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":245.91659375,"end":248.53221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":245.93346875,"end":245.96721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":248.65034375000002,"end":268.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":248.85284375,"end":248.93721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":248.95409375000003,"end":249.13971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":249.46034375000002,"end":249.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":261.77909375,"end":262.16721875},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這已經是應該我很年輕的時候了年輕的時候跟中國兩個移民沒有關係吧所以這是一個我認為這是認知作戰的一部分這整件事情發生以來一直把我沒有講的話塞進來我的嘴巴然後把我建構成好像一個妖魔鬼怪一樣冷血 是不是就像我今天有講的連一個三大暴之一的國內的大暴的社論都可以說"},{"start":437.766,"end":437.906,"text":"李柏毅議員"},{"start":465.469,"end":481.597,"text":"管主會第一個你力挺海巡署要不要用撞船這個報告我給你肯定之外那目前所有的這一個包含認知作戰把你塑造成希望把你塑造成中國漁民該死這種"},{"start":483.078,"end":485.721,"text":"我們一路以來我一方面支持跟堅持捍衛我們海巡依法行政的執法之外"},{"start":504.622,"end":533.032,"text":"對於家屬的撫慰．對於亡者的安寧．我是盡所有的力量．我們舉辦法會．我們安置靈堂．我們的同仁去拜飯持續到今天．完全沒有停聚好 謝謝管委員對不起管主委那我這樣請這個陸委會邱主委在管主委你請回座面對海委會他現在站在第一線海巡署站在第一線"},{"start":533.832,"end":559.742,"text":"面對對岸或者是這種認知作戰要拉高兩岸的緊張程度面對這種認知作戰要讓外界認為台灣主戰要讓外界認為台灣的海委會主委很殘忍對於我們漁民越界他們怎麼樣那對於這種認知作戰我想陸委會是不是也應該跟相關的單位做一些比較全面性的討論確實"},{"start":561.563,"end":579.703,"text":"片面的去改變目前今夏海域的執法狀況的是誰?台灣的陸委會到底對這件事情的態度我們希望怎麼樣維持和平我們的這個取締的方式我們是和平的取締但是發生了意外我們還是要力挺我們海巡人員的這些說明"},{"start":581.144,"end":598.154,"text":"確實,感謝委員的質詢我大概有三個面向我想長期以來中國對我們的認知作戰我想不是只有在這個領域所有領域基本上都有在做認知作戰我想這個報紙或者是我們國人也大概都相當的了解第二個,我們必須要感謝今天這樣的一個質詢裡面"},{"start":600.655,"end":621.708,"text":"我們所有的朝野的立委都支持挺這個海巡署不過剛剛您所提到的這個認知作戰我想在這裡也跟各位委員跟所有的媒體希望大家小心因為國台辦他在第二天的記者會裡面他就用了所謂這是惡意撞船事件"},{"start":624.625,"end":627.225,"text":"海巡署暴力執法 要求賠償"},{"start":642.657,"end":669.134,"text":"一再的敘明說檢察官也用證人的身份對兩人製作兩份的詢問筆錄並且命他拒絕該兩人均表示對海巡隊的執法程序沒有意見我想在檢察官還在調查的過程中我希望國人不要對海巡署可以過度的苛責這種執法的過程確實很難避免一些所謂的意外的發生更何況我想"},{"start":672.383,"end":698.864,"text":"郭台鑌大概先前的記者會已經在做鋪陳他後續的這些認識作戰了所以這也是我們國人如果真的大家要挺海巡署我們真的在用語上可能稍微斟酌一下是我想謝謝主委這個也關係到後續的談判的相關的所有的要件那前提我剛剛也很高興聽到周署長那也很高興我們朝野共同來這個挺這個我們所謂海巡"},{"start":699.665,"end":723.42,"text":"那另外也就是我們海巡其實跟對岸都在打擊這一個三無船我們實在沒有必要去拉高這個緊張我們也都主張和平而且我們在執法的過程也都主張和平所以說在拉高緊張的人是誰在破壞和平現狀以及拉高緊張以及偵派這些海巡偵派這些海警"},{"start":723.78,"end":725.381,"text":"海監及行政船隻是誰?"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}