{"error":false,"id":["149296"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149296,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149296","日期":"2024-03-04","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-15-2","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":2,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[15],"委員會代碼:str":["內政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-04T13:16:37+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-04T13:29:44+08:00","影片長度":"00:13:07","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2ddd7819cd10561691c14df0e2384efaf28bf8ba9b0039caa7a6916aeac3fb5f28305ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳雪生","委員發言時間":"13:16:37 - 13:29:44","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請海洋委員會主任委員、大陸委員會主任委員、國防部及海軍司令部參謀長就「金門撞船案:翻船執法過程及後續處理」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":1323,"blocks":[["陳委員雪生：（13時16分）謝謝我們美麗的召委，辛苦了，是不是請我們海委會。"],["主席：好，有請管主委。"],["管主任委員碧玲：陳委員好。"],["陳委員雪生：主委午安，您當了四任的立法委員嘛？"],["管主任委員碧玲：是。"],["陳委員雪生：我們也是老同事了，邱太三主委跟我從國大代表到現在30年了，我們可以說都是老同事，所以我不忍在這個地方來苛責您，我只是滿遺憾的，早上內政委員會高金召集人用「撞船」、「翻船」的字眼引起海委會那麼強烈的反擊，撞船不見得是錯的啊！撞船不見得是錯的，也可能是對的啊！今天在立法院提出這樣的說明報告，我們海委會可以據理說明嘛？這個事件的本身大家很清楚，就是一個警匪的追逐嘛，是不是？很清楚啊！不要說剛才的影片，你看以前楊源明組長是不是帶了槍，警匪的片子。","然後是海巡，我從當縣長一直到現在，我們對海岸巡的弟兄說真的非常的好，我前天跟主委通電話的過程裡面，我說我們縣長、議長、立委對你們海巡、岸巡非常好……"],["管主任委員碧玲：他們很支持，報告委員這個很感謝。"],["陳委員雪生：你們要到地方去看看縣長嘛？署長有沒有看過縣長？看過議長？都沒有啊！"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，我去馬祖的時候因為時間很短促，而我們單位非常的多，排完了這些單位以後，確實還來不及來拜會縣長，但是……"],["陳委員雪生：不用拜會，縣長、議長也會去看你們，會到海巡隊去看你們。"],["管主任委員碧玲：目前還沒有這樣的機會，不過委員撞船事件的部分，如果容許我們艦隊分署長來說明，我覺得今天我們就可以比較豁然開朗，好不好？"],["陳委員雪生：剛才已經花了很多時間說明，影片也放過了，大家都很清楚了。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，謝謝。因為對中國來講這樣的定義整體下來是一個惡性的、海巡的艦艇撞擊大陸漁船，然後導致翻覆跟死亡的一個惡性的、殘暴的執法行為，整體來講，撞船這樣的一個名詞，在談判桌上的協商的過程當中，這樣的一個定義都是兩方毫無共識的部分。"],["陳委員雪生：我很清楚。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，這一次沒有撞船的事情發生、這一次沒有撞船的事情發生……"],["陳委員雪生：我去過大陸N次了，事情一發生，國台辦、福建省台辦、福州市台辦都跟我密集通電話，都在通話。也就是說這件事情怎麼善了？我告訴你一件事，你看過這個公雞跟蚱蜢在談判嗎？公雞跟蚱蜢談判你有沒有看過？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我知道委員要說什麼。"],["陳委員雪生：動一口就沒有了，是不是？"],["管主任委員碧玲：可是委員，我在這裡真的要嚴正地表達。"],["陳委員雪生：好。"],["管主任委員碧玲：整個事情處理的過程，大家透過認知作戰，把所有的事情歸咎我個人，成為這一次整個協商過程當中的障礙。委員，如果在談判桌上……"],["陳委員雪生：我都知道。"],["管主任委員碧玲：若不是一條一條的障礙在那裡，怎麼會拖到現在？"],["陳委員雪生：不是你談判，我們也談判過。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，每一條障礙都花了好幾天、好幾次，然後我們把這個障礙解除，又有新的障礙出來。在整個過程當中，延續到現在還沒有辦法有共識的時候，在談判桌外建構成我是障礙者。委員，這毫不公平，完全不是事實。"],["陳委員雪生：管媽，早上蘇巧慧委員私底下跟我聊天，他去過金門，去了回來，他曉得金門、馬祖的民眾好委屈，我的委屈你知道嗎？你不要以為你委屈，署長委屈啊！邱太三主委委屈啊！我的委屈你知道嗎？對不對？"],["管主任委員碧玲：報告委員，如果……"],["陳委員雪生：就是大象跟螞蟻在談戀愛，是不是？"],["管主任委員碧玲：如果我們內部……跟委員報告，我們的同仁從談判桌回來也說了他們的心聲，當他們在談判桌的時候，看到內部對我的攻擊、對事件的誤解跟對事件的扭曲，變成談判桌上對方拿出來作為談判材料的時候……"],["陳委員雪生：我告訴你……"],["管主任委員碧玲：他們也覺得心酸。"],["陳委員雪生：我告訴你，我沒有參加談判，但是他們在裡面談什麼，我了然於胸。"],["管主任委員碧玲：如果我們全國能夠一致，對外呼籲中國能夠擱置爭議，然後回歸人道，這件事情會讓哪一邊更有力量昭然若揭，會完全不一樣。"],["陳委員雪生：主任委員，我告訴你，面對的就是武力！我看你海巡有20條還是30條，它的白船可以出動300條。"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員……"],["陳委員雪生：我在國防委員會質詢的時候，告訴這些中將、上將，你們哪一個人看過萬箭齊發？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們面對的是公理跟正義。"],["陳委員雪生：萬箭齊發，你們看過嗎？你有沒有看過那個景象？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們認為這個世界是有公理跟正義的世界，我們面對的是2,300萬人民的力量、公理與正義。"],["陳委員雪生：今天我們世界上有公平正義的話，加薩去把以色列人……"],["管主任委員碧玲：如果我們不堅持也不會拖到現在……"],["陳委員雪生：弄了300個人，今天死了三萬多個人……"],["管主任委員碧玲：早就全面道歉了。"],["陳委員雪生：還在進行，對不對？"],["管主任委員碧玲：如果我們不堅持，如果我們不相信我們應該堅持這些價值的話，早就去道歉，早就結束啦！可是我們不能這樣做啊！"],["陳委員雪生：我告訴你，你跟邱太三主委……"],["管主任委員碧玲：這件事情……"],["陳委員雪生：我們真的有一些事情要忍耐，法律的事情歸法律，今天人死為大。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們都是這樣的態度。"],["陳委員雪生：人死為大也只是一個理由而已。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們都是這樣的態度。"],["陳委員雪生：只是我們的尊嚴而已。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們一直拜到今天。"],["陳委員雪生：用人死為大求取我們的尊嚴而已，你應該很清楚。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們人道的方案充滿撫慰家屬的真誠，委員，您也知道。"],["陳委員雪生：我們對面……"],["管主任委員碧玲：可是為什麼談不下來？"],["陳委員雪生：馬祖的對面是誰？是我們的堂兄、堂弟、堂伯、堂叔、親戚。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，所以我們更希望對方用這樣的心情面對金廈海域跟馬祖海域。委員，我一直說這個善的橋樑要珍惜、要維護的時候，不是罵我而已，我們如何呼籲中國……"],["陳委員雪生：我沒有罵你。"],["管主任委員碧玲：整個認知作戰是這樣操作，但是中國呢？中國應該如何擱置政治，回歸人道呢？有沒有足夠的民意、聲音對對岸樣這樣呼籲？我認為高度不均衡。"],["陳委員雪生：兩岸的互動……"],["管主任委員碧玲：如果我們的民意能夠展現高度團結，呼籲中國趕快放棄政治，趕快回歸人道的話，今天或許就不會拖這麼久。"],["陳委員雪生：這個問題太大了，我沒辦法回答你這個問題。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，可是我們必須堅持。"],["陳委員雪生：這個問題太大了。"],["管主任委員碧玲：為什麼到現在我沒辦法就全案道歉？我們很願意就我們應該給予家屬……因為沒有錄影帶……"],["陳委員雪生：我在第一時間也找邱主委……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們讓他煎熬……"],["陳委員雪生：我說主委，這個事情要善了，趕快處理。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們就是秉持這樣的善意一路下來。"],["陳委員雪生：你找金門縣政府嘛！找陳玉珍委員嘛！他們在那邊首當其衝，找他們去談啊！"],["管主任委員碧玲：其實委員們都幫忙很多。"],["陳委員雪生：怎麼一下子把它拉高到海巡署署長？"],["管主任委員碧玲：其實委員們都幫忙很多。"],["陳委員雪生：你們跳出來，你們不需要回答問題嘛！由底下的先去答嘛！答了以後再說，是不是？你現在把事情搞到這個地步。"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員，如果……"],["陳委員雪生：現在海巡出去有看到「三無」的船嗎？一艘都不見了！還看到船嗎？全部躲起來啦！他們抓到的話怎麼處分？在馬祖還看到抽砂船嗎？一艘都不見了，全跑了。"],["管主任委員碧玲：如果中國能夠在海洋秩序的管理上……其實這是雙方可以共同努力維護……"],["陳委員雪生：我們沒辦法指揮它。"],["管主任委員碧玲：兩岸協同執法長期以來有共同相守的相同價值跟相同的執法規則。"],["陳委員雪生：但是你們海巡跟它所謂的執法支隊，你們底下、檯面下是有聯繫的。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，但是這一次……"],["陳委員雪生：為什麼都沒有越界，都沒有越過禁限制海域？我們海巡有沒有越過？他們的船也沒有越過，為什麼？"],["管主任委員碧玲：這一次把單獨的個案、執法事件升高到這樣的政治連結，我們真的不樂見……"],["陳委員雪生：它的「三無」船……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們也認為應該要呼籲，不要用這樣的政治連結來處理。"],["陳委員雪生：它的「三無」船也是白船，他們也在抓，不是我們在抓。"],["管主任委員碧玲：他們的規定更嚴格。"],["陳委員雪生：他們的船越過界了，當然我們去抓，現在在追逐的過程碰到事情，它藉這個事故嘛！所以就善了，怎麼善了？"],["管主任委員碧玲：其實發生過，就是個案處理，但是這一次……"],["陳委員雪生：我覺得您的……"],["管主任委員碧玲：升高為政治是一切問題的根源。"],["陳委員雪生：我覺得你還可以再低調一點，這是我的勸，因為我也很忍耐，我也很委屈，我希望管主委也忍耐一點，該委屈也委屈一點。今天美國的航空母艦不會5艘同時出現在金門海域，不可能的，同時出現在馬祖海域也不可能，我們的水還太淺。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們沒有這樣的意思。"],["陳委員雪生：如果正面交戰的話，美國也不允許你開任何一槍一砲，對不對？"],["管主任委員碧玲：包括這一次整個過程以來都沒有挑釁，沒有升高政治。"],["陳委員雪生：不是蔡總統下令開就開砲，國防部長下令開……我在馬祖，我太清楚了，所以我希望這件事情低調一點，該忍耐一點就忍耐一點。邱主委……"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員，從發生到現在，所有的專訪我全部都婉拒，唯一就是到立法院被堵麥的時候才有發言，而且都是回應媒體問題的時候所做的發言。"],["陳委員雪生：儘量少發言，好不好？還有邱主委，我請你上台，好不好？"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員，發言的時候回答問題，我們只是必須捍衛海巡執法的正當性。"],["陳委員雪生：讓邱主委講講就好，因為時間快到了，召委一直在趕我下台。我知道。"],["主席（麥委員玉珍代）：時間到，所以要請……"],["陳委員雪生：邱主委，好不好？能夠忍耐儘量忍耐，委屈就委屈一點。"],["邱主任委員太三：我們都密切保持聯繫。"],["陳委員雪生：你們有點管道跟大陸談判嘛！一直這樣下去嗎？你一直這樣下去，我們金門、馬祖現在已經有一點和平區了，這樣搞的話我們又變成前線了。"],["邱主任委員太三：對啦！"],["陳委員雪生：我們要出去打魚，我們靠海維生，對不對？"],["邱主任委員太三：委員當然也知道，雙方就這件事情也持續不斷的溝通，但是因為有一些基本的堅持，所以……也有已經合意的地方，但還是有不一致的地方，所以繼續溝通。"],["陳委員雪生：你不要說我當潤滑劑，夏立言副主席跑去幫忙講個話，你們把他唱紅，有必要嗎？對不對？"],["邱主任委員太三：委員，我們應該不會。"],["陳委員雪生：找夏立言副主席去，能夠把這件事情善了都是好事，對不對？我們團結一致，好不好？"],["邱主任委員太三：好。"],["陳委員雪生：因為時間的關係，我就不講了。"],["邱主任委員太三：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員雪生：高金委員已經對我很不爽了，好不好？"],["主席：謝謝陳雪生委員的質詢。"],["陳委員雪生：你們兩位都是我的好朋友、好同事。"],["邱主任委員太三：好，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員雪生：我對你們沒有任何惡意，管媽，我們在那邊那麼久了，我跟你也沒有惡言相向過，還有邱太三主委，你是民進黨，我是國民黨，我們打架，從打架到後來打籃球，後來到合唱團，我們是好朋友，不需要這樣，好不好？"],["主席：謝謝陳雪生委員。","有請高金委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":328,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-2","speakers":["高金素梅","傅崐萁","陳雪生","王美惠","洪孟楷","蘇巧慧","李柏毅","麥玉珍","徐欣瑩","丁學忠","許宇甄","張智倫","黃建賓","牛煦庭","張宏陸","黃捷","吳琪銘","沈伯洋","羅智強","賴士葆","吳沛憶","李坤城","鄭天財Sra 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