{"error":false,"id":["149299"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149299,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149299","日期":"2024-03-04","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-15-2","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":2,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[15],"委員會代碼:str":["內政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-04T14:22:22+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-04T14:33:19+08:00","影片長度":"00:10:57","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2dddbd2a1335bf8fa0094df0e2384efaf28bf8ba9b0039caa7a634ef1c60a9781cbd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"14:22:22 - 14:33:19","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請海洋委員會主任委員、大陸委員會主任委員、國防部及海軍司令部參謀長就「金門撞船案:翻船執法過程及後續處理」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":1576,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（14時22分）主席，有請管主委。"],["主席：有請管主委，謝謝。"],["管主任委員碧玲：羅委員好。"],["羅委員智強：主委，其實上午我在內政委員會待了很久，聽到非常多的質詢。你不斷強調為了維繫談判的氣氛、保持善意，所以很多談判過程、內容、細節，你都不對外透露，對不對？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們一直都沒有透露，我想我們……"],["羅委員智強：我支持這一個做法。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們一直都沒有透露，但是今天在這裡的時候……"],["羅委員智強：沒關係，我跟你講，你到國會質詢，你必須有答詢的義務，這一點沒有問題。我想請教你，你知道上午的時候王定宇臉書爆料，對岸談判代表提出的要求就是臺灣海巡人員到中國接受訊問，請問有無此事？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我沒有看到這樣的報導，我們是不是……"],["羅委員智強：我只問你有沒有這件事？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們是不是請我們副署長來說明，好不好？"],["羅委員智強：時間暫停。"],["主席：好，我們時間暫停，然後有請副署長。"],["周副主任委員美伍：委員好，在溝通的過程當中，陸方有曾經提過這樣子的說明，但是經過幾次的溝通之後，他們已經沒有這樣子的訴求。"],["羅委員智強：所以換言之，這個訊息就是你們告訴王定宇委員的嘛！既然已經證實有這個訊息，那我想請問您……"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員，對不起，這次媒體有很多訊息被報導出去，那我們海巡這邊……"],["羅委員智強：沒關係，我要跟管委員說，你今天來這裡報告，你就該把這個事項在這裡報告，你們透過任何方式，剛剛也被你們的人員證實，是你們透露給王定宇，那就違反剛剛你一直強調的，遇到你不想回答的問題，就說今天事涉談判機敏，你不便透露，事涉偵查不公開，不便透露，遇到王定宇就會轉彎，沒關係，你要事涉談判的內容不公布，要保持善意，我可以接受。我就問目前幾個大陸方面公開的要求，不是談判內容，國臺辦發言公開要求臺方儘快公布事實真相，我今天一整天聽，你認為事實真相已經公布了嘛！對不對？"],["管主任委員碧玲：沒有，委員，事實的真相我們從頭到尾……"],["羅委員智強：交給檢方偵查嘛！"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們從頭到尾就是所有的事證……"],["羅委員智強：所以你到目前為止，你也不認為你們公布事實真相……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們交給檢察……"],["羅委員智強：那我們今天在這邊幹什麼？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們不偏不倚……"],["羅委員智強：我們在這邊幹什麼？"],["管主任委員碧玲：報告委員……"],["羅委員智強：我們要的不就是事實真相嗎？委員，你不用那麼快一直想要設防……"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員，這是司法的程序才能夠回答的問題。"],["羅委員智強：第二個問題，嚴懲相關責任人，我想請問你，嚴懲相關責任人也做不到嘛！因為你認為海巡沒有執法過當嘛！"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，責任需要釐清。"],["羅委員智強：海巡沒有執法過當嘛！"],["管主任委員碧玲：我今天的第一點聲明，我今天的第一點……聲明……"],["羅委員智強：你剛剛從早上到現在，是不是認為海巡沒有執法過當，連這個都無法回答？"],["管主任委員碧玲：目前海巡署的跡證顯示，海巡署並沒有過失……"],["羅委員智強：所以也就沒有嚴懲的問題啊！"],["管主任委員碧玲：但是所有的一切，所有的一切都需要檢察官來還原真相。"],["羅委員智強：第三個，向遇難者家屬道歉，你做得到嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們跟家屬的道歉……"],["羅委員智強：僅限於沒有錄影嘛！我都有聽到啦！"],["管主任委員碧玲：報告委員，當事證的真相還沒有釐清的時候……"],["羅委員智強：你到現在為止，這麼明確的問題都不回答，沒有關係，好！我接下來問你，第一個，顯然你只有針對錄影的部分會道歉，希望你在談判秉持這一點，你們也說過不會書面致歉，也不會口頭道歉，除了錄影之外，你們做得到這一點嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，談判……"],["羅委員智強：做得到做不到？"],["管主任委員碧玲：談判未來還需要……"],["羅委員智強：你到現在為止講的東西，你剛剛早上跟委員詢答，你就說沒有責任啊！"],["管主任委員碧玲：今天這裡不是談判桌，在溝通上會如何進行，不是……"],["羅委員智強：我再請教你下一個問題，海巡人員非常辛苦，我們大家都應該當他的後盾，你認同吧？"],["管主任委員碧玲：對不起，我一直在回答委員……"],["羅委員智強：你看嘛！你搶答沒有聽問題，我們都要當海巡人員的後盾，對不對？"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，我們海巡……"],["羅委員智強：謝謝你，要當海巡人員的後盾，要建構海巡人員可以有安全、有尊嚴的執法環境，對不對？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們盡全力要做到這一點。"],["羅委員智強：好，謝謝你認同。那我想請問你，專業領導算不算是一個建構海巡人員尊嚴跟安全執法的一個項目？"],["管主任委員碧玲：領導當然很重要，需要卓越的領導。"],["羅委員智強：謝謝你也認同當然是，我想請問你，不算代理主委周美伍，你的前一任海委會主委是誰？天啊！你不會不知道吧！"],["管主任委員碧玲：我不會不知道啊！"],["羅委員智強：告訴我。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們李仲威主委啊！"],["羅委員智強：李仲威主委的經歷是什麼？"],["管主任委員碧玲：李仲威主委確實是在海巡……"],["羅委員智強：海軍中將，對不對？海巡署署長，海委會主委之前當過海軍副司令、海軍艦隊指揮官，我想請問你，你有任何海巡經驗嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我的領導，我的領導是……"],["羅委員智強：你有沒有任何海巡經驗在當這個主委之前？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我的領導是如何，我想由我回答不公平。"],["羅委員智強：有沒有？有沒有？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我的領導……"],["羅委員智強：你沒有啦！"],["管主任委員碧玲：我的領導是如何，讓海巡來評價。"],["羅委員智強：你沒有啦！我跟你講，海委會主委，海巡署的上級主管，不是讓你來這裡當實習生耶！"],["管主任委員碧玲：可以受社會公評。"],["羅委員智強：我知道，要講這個社會公評，我一定要跟你來公評一下，那你有聽過將帥無能累死三軍嗎？無能包括專業吧！專業上的無能也是一種無能吧！"],["管主任委員碧玲：我不是這樣的領導人。"],["羅委員智強：你有沒有聽過外行領導內行？"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員，昨天還有海巡的家屬寫簡訊告訴我對我的感謝跟我的領導，你要這樣讓我來……"],["羅委員智強：來！沒關係！我知道你當然沒辦法回答這句話，我要請教您，我跟你講，我從頭到尾不怪您啦！"],["管主任委員碧玲：就在我的手機裡面。"],["羅委員智強：我怪的是今天用你的陳建仁，不問專業只問酬庸，我知道這樣說你不服氣啦！沒關係，我再問你一個問題……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我尊重委員的評價。"],["羅委員智強：我問你一個問題，海巡人員在執勤出海的時候都有密錄器，這句話誰講的？"],["管主任委員碧玲：報告委員……"],["羅委員智強：這句話誰講的？"],["管主任委員碧玲：出海的時候，我們基本上是會要求……"],["羅委員智強：這句話誰講的？你講的嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：要有攝錄影的設備。"],["羅委員智強：都有密錄器！"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們很希望都能夠做到更多的蒐證……"],["羅委員智強：都有密錄器！我告訴你，是李仲威講的，有海巡經驗的海巡署署長，在2019年5月20號接受質詢的時候，公開表示海巡人員在執勤出海的時候都有密錄器，我想請問，這麼……"],["管主任委員碧玲：每一個單獨的任務會有，但是……"],["羅委員智強：那請問你，為什麼這次沒有密錄器？"],["管主任委員碧玲：這次是在海上……"],["羅委員智強：為什麼專業的海巡署長出身的李仲威，他跟你講的SOP就有密錄器，你不專業的管碧玲當主委，你就沒有密錄器？你不是說沒有嗎？現在又有了嗎？要再騙嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我尊重委員這樣跳躍啦！但是跟委員報告……"],["羅委員智強：我問你現在有沒有嘛？"],["管主任委員碧玲：這一艘艇……"],["羅委員智強：只有有跟沒有啊！你不要再跟我講，你已經重複100遍了，這艘艇裝不下攝影設備，但是密錄器多大？"],["管主任委員碧玲：密錄器是有的，但是他在……"],["羅委員智強：有？有沒有交出來？"],["管主任委員碧玲：他在出勤的時候使用的是……"],["羅委員智強：各位媒體朋友，各位我們所有的立院同仁，我今天很高興啊！管主委說有密錄器啦！所以從頭到尾說沒有錄影都是騙人的嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：這裡面有密錄器啊！"],["羅委員智強：非常謝謝你啊！"],["管主任委員碧玲：但是出勤的時候，使用的是手持式的攝錄影機，這是符合規定的啊！"],["羅委員智強：手持式攝錄影機有沒有用？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我說的都是這樣完整的，那手持式的……"],["羅委員智強：警察人員有密錄器，海巡人員要不要用密錄器？很多爭議法官判決前都先看密錄器。"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員，密錄器……"],["羅委員智強：密錄器可以保護自己，非常重要。這句話誰講的？誰講的？"],["管主任委員碧玲：密錄器這件事情……"],["羅委員智強：綠營的立委趙正宇在質詢李仲威講的，李仲威特別強調都有密錄器，而且是使用的密錄器，不是像你晾在旁邊晾乾的密錄器，然後跟你講手持搖晃無法用，密錄器掛在身上會比手持搖晃嗎？你今天交出密錄器來，你說畫面不清楚，我們可以接受，你現在跟我講有密錄器，你又跟我講密錄器沒有用，因為用手持，手持搖晃又沒有用，你就不專業嘛！"],["管主任委員碧玲：密錄器……"],["羅委員智強：接下來我再問，我要請教您……"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員，真正的專業是有沒有密錄器，跟這件事情有沒有過失是兩件事。"],["羅委員智強：我想請教你，你知道去年萬華發生一個舉發一位鄧姓女子，持電擊棒違反社會秩序維護法，最後法院裁判不罰的原因是什麼，你知道嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：請委員指教。"],["羅委員智強：因為兩次要求警方都拿不出密錄器的錄影，然後法院的判決是什麼？"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員，不同的規定有不同的SOP。"],["羅委員智強：他認為今天你沒有密錄器，沒有辦法證實你執法所謂的證據性，所以像這種情況之下，他也只能無奈的判沒有違法。"],["管主任委員碧玲：不會，以這個個案來講，密錄器有沒有不是還原真相有沒有的……"],["羅委員智強：好啦！好啦！我告訴你，照你這樣講，你的報告還說要補充所有的密錄器，你不是自己打臉自己嗎？密錄器這麼不重要？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我沒有打臉，委員，它不是那麼不重要。"],["羅委員智強：沒關係！你說這個也不重要，我告訴你，李仲威你也要打臉，地方法院也要打臉……"],["管主任委員碧玲：這個和車禍不一樣。"],["羅委員智強：我想請問你，2016年的管碧玲，那時候憲指部在偵查的時候，憲指部有一個環節沒有錄影，請問你怎麼評價憲指部的？"],["管主任委員碧玲：報告委員，那次的質詢完全沒有談錄影的問題，在臉書上談錄影問題的時候，是和質詢……"],["羅委員智強：來！來！來！在2月7號，2016年的臉書我唸給你聽，睜眼說瞎話的能力……"],["管主任委員碧玲：你只擷取了其中的一部分。"],["羅委員智強：追蒐證錄影資料……"],["管主任委員碧玲：那一部分在質詢的時候是沒有談的。"],["羅委員智強：主席，時間暫停，他一直打斷啦！"],["主席：我們互相彼此尊重，委員沒有請你回答，麻煩就先不要回答，謝謝。"],["羅委員智強：來！我唸給你聽，追蒐證錄影資料，證實關鍵的「簽自願同意書」根本沒錄影，這是國軍憲兵史上的大烏龍，該下臺負責的要有自覺，真的不可以拿基層當替死鬼。我跟你講，為什麼需要藐視國會罪啊？因為就有這種官員，睜眼說瞎話啊！說過的話通通不認啊！我要跟各位講，今天我們都支持海巡，但是一個無能的主委，你只是累死海巡執法人員，密錄器錄影沒有落實這個SOP，不要推給基層當替死鬼，我們都是海巡人員執法的後盾，但是你沒有落實SOP，造成海巡人員有理說不清，這就是2016年的管碧玲批評今天的管碧玲，謝謝。"],["管主任委員碧玲：那是斷章取義。"],["主席：非常謝謝羅智強委員的質詢，也謝謝管主委，謝謝。","我們繼續請賴士葆委員質詢，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":328,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-2","speakers":["高金素梅","傅崐萁","陳雪生","王美惠","洪孟楷","蘇巧慧","李柏毅","麥玉珍","徐欣瑩","丁學忠","許宇甄","張智倫","黃建賓","牛煦庭","張宏陸","黃捷","吳琪銘","沈伯洋","羅智強","賴士葆","吳沛憶","李坤城","鄭天財Sra 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你們透過任何方式剛剛也被你們的人員證實是你們透露給王定宇那就違反剛剛你一直強調遇到你不想回答的問題就是說今天四射談判機敏你不便透露四射偵查不公開不便透露遇到王定宇就會轉彎"},{"start":122.262,"end":141.088,"text":"沒關係,你要試射談判的內容不公佈,要保持善意,我可以接受。我就問目前幾個大陸方面公開的要求,不是談判內容。國台辦發言公開要求,臺方盡快公佈事實真相。我今天一整天聽,你認為事實真相已經公佈了嗎?對不對?"},{"start":142.298,"end":146.784,"text":"交給檢方偵查嘛所以你到目前為止你也不認為你們公布的事實真相那我們今天在這裡幹什麼我們在這邊幹什麼我們要的不是事實真相嗎"},{"start":160.2,"end":178.835,"text":"委員你不用那麼快一直在想要設法第二個問你嚴懲相關責任人我想請問你嚴懲相關責任人也做不到嗎因為你認為海巡沒有執法過大嘛海巡沒有執法過大嘛你剛剛從早上到現在是不是認為海巡沒有執法過大連這個都無法回答"},{"start":179.175,"end":204.015,"text":"目前海巡署的基證顯示．海巡署並沒有過失所以就沒有嚴懲的問題啊第三個,向遇難者家屬道歉你做得到嗎?我們跟家屬的道歉僅限於沒有錄影啦我都有聽到啦報告委員當事證的真相還沒有釐清的時候你到現在為止這麼明確的問題都不回答沒有關係好,我接下來問您"},{"start":205.316,"end":215.772,"text":"第一個顯然你只有針對錄影的部分會道歉希望你在談判秉持這一點你們也說過不會書面致歉也不會口頭道歉除了錄影之外你們說得到這一點嗎?"},{"start":219.321,"end":225.046,"text":"做得到做不到你到現在為止採的東西你剛今天早上跟委員尋答你就說沒有責任呢好我再請教你下一個問題海巡人員非常辛苦我們大家都應該當他的後盾你認同吧"},{"start":238.144,"end":242.787,"text":"我們都要當海巡人員的後盾,對不對?謝謝您。要當海巡人員的後盾,要建構海巡人可以有安全、有尊嚴的執法環境,對不對?"},{"start":256.988,"end":270.502,"text":"專業領導算不算是一個建構海巡的一個專研跟安全執法的一個項目?領導當然領導是很重要需要卓越的領導我想請問您不算代理主委周梅武你的前一任海巡海委會主委是誰?"},{"start":272.625,"end":275.466,"text":"李綜威主委的經歷是什麼?海軍中將、海巡署署長、海委會主委之前當過海軍部司令、海軍艦隊指揮官。你有任何海巡經驗嗎?"},{"start":294.511,"end":301.094,"text":"你有沒有任何海巡經驗在當這個主委之前?有沒有?有沒有?你沒有啦!你沒有啦!我跟您講海委會主委海巡署的上級主管不是讓你來這裡當實習生欸!今天待會我知道要講這個社會公平我一定要跟你來公平一下那你知道聽過降帥無能累死三軍嗎?"},{"start":323.504,"end":327.006,"text":"無能包括專業吧!專業上的無能也是一種無能吧!你有聽過外行、領導、內行?來!沒關係我知道你當然沒辦法回答這句話齁!我要請教您齁!我跟你講我抽抽袋也不怪您啦!"},{"start":343.154,"end":344.375,"text":"海巡人員在執行出海的時候都有密錄器這句話誰講的?"},{"start":358.924,"end":364.407,"text":"這句話誰講的?這句話誰講?你講的嗎?都有密錄器!都有密錄器!都有密錄器!我告訴你是李仲威講的有海巡經驗的海巡署署長在2019年5月22號接受質詢的時候公開表示海巡在執行出海的時候都有密錄器"},{"start":385.66,"end":388.201,"text":"請問你為什麼這次沒有密錄器?為什麼專業的海巡署長出身的李仲威他跟你講的SOP就有密錄器你不專業的管碧玲當主委你就沒有密錄器"},{"start":409.537,"end":414.42,"text":"你不是說沒有嗎?現在又有了嗎?又要再變嗎?我尊重委員這樣跳躍啦吼但是跟委員報告我問你現在有沒有嗎?這一艘艇喔這一艘艇只要有跟沒有啊你不要再跟我講你已經重複100遍了這艘艇裝不下攝影設備但是密錄器多大?密錄器是有的"},{"start":429.451,"end":431.172,"text":"有 交出來 有沒有交出來各位媒體朋友啊 各位我們所有議員同仁我今天很高興啊 管主委說有密錄器啊"},{"start":440.942,"end":446.967,"text":"所以從頭到尾說沒有錄影都是騙人的嗎?非常謝謝你啊!手持式攝錄影機有沒有用?警察人員有秘錄器,海巡人員要不要用秘錄器?很多正義法官判決前都先看秘錄器秘錄器可以保護自己,非常重要,這句話誰講的?"},{"start":468.153,"end":496.955,"text":"誰講的密錄器這件事情律營的立委趙正宇在質詢李中威講的李中威特別強調都有密錄器而且是使用的密錄器不是像你晾在旁邊晾乾的密錄器然後跟你講手持搖晃無法用掛在身上會手持搖晃嗎密錄器你現在叫出密錄器來你說畫面不清楚我們可以接受啊你現在跟我講有密錄器你又跟我講密錄器沒有用因為用手持手持搖晃又沒有用"},{"start":498.103,"end":517.465,"text":"你就不專業嘛接下來我再問我再想要請教您我現在請教您有沒有秘錄器跟這件事情有沒有過失是兩件事我想請教您你知道去年萬華發生一個舉發一位鄧迅女子然後違反社會資訊文法持電急報"},{"start":518.737,"end":527.738,"text":"最後法院裁判不罰的原因是什麼你知道嗎因為兩次要求警方都拿不出密錄器的錄影"},{"start":528.618,"end":554.006,"text":"然後法院的判決是什麼?他認為今天你沒有秘錄器沒有辦法證實你執法的所謂的證據性所以像這種情況之下他也只能無奈的判沒有違法以這個個案來講秘錄器有沒有不是還原真相好啦好啦我告訴你上次這樣講你的報告還說要補充所有的秘錄器你不自己打點自己嗎秘錄器這麼不重要"},{"start":555.606,"end":556.867,"text":"沒關係,你說這個也不重要,我告訴你李仲威你要打臉,立法院你要打臉,我想請問你"},{"start":565.814,"end":573.916,"text":"2016年的管碧玲那時候縣執部在偵查的時候縣執部有一個環節沒有錄影請問您你怎麼評價縣執部的報告委員那次的質詢完全沒有談錄影的問題在臉書上談錄影的問題的時候是和質詢來來來你看2月7號2016年2016年的臉書我唸給你聽這一點說香話能力留下來有追搜證錄影資料執行執行暫停"},{"start":595.683,"end":601.467,"text":"追收證錄影資料,證實關鍵簽志願同意書根本沒錄影,正是國軍憲兵史上的大烏龍,該下台負責的要有自覺,真的不能拿基層當替死鬼。為什麼需要藐視國會罪?"},{"start":621.789,"end":634.917,"text":"因為就有這種官員曾有說瞎話啊說過的話通通不認啊我要跟各位講今天我們都支持海巡但是一個無能的一個主委一時累死海巡執法人員"},{"start":635.998,"end":636.619,"text":"非常謝謝羅智強委員的質詢"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}