{"error":false,"id":["149301"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149301,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149301","日期":"2024-03-04","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-15-2","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":2,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[15],"委員會代碼:str":["內政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-04T14:45:58+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-04T14:57:11+08:00","影片長度":"00:11:13","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2dddf431aacec90e26ce4df0e2384efaf28bf8ba9b0039caa7a6a2d01b8cba2b01b05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳沛憶","委員發言時間":"14:45:58 - 14:57:11","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請海洋委員會主任委員、大陸委員會主任委員、國防部及海軍司令部參謀長就「金門撞船案:翻船執法過程及後續處理」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":1838,"blocks":[["吳委員沛憶：（14時45分）我請海委會跟海巡署。"],["主席：我們請海委會的主委以及海巡署的署長，謝謝。"],["吳委員沛憶：謝謝主席，主委、署長好。今天其實質詢了好幾個小時的時間，我看前面好幾位委員，包括我前面幾位的羅智強委員就非常關心我們海巡署的態度，中國的大內宣也表達，臺灣說我方是叫做冷血，所以我想要請問一下，這一次針對往生者的不幸事件，我們海巡署有沒有協助設立靈堂？"],["管主任委員碧玲：有的。"],["吳委員沛憶：我們在什麼時間設立的？"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員，我們第一線替家屬所善盡的祭拜、安靈，我們都持續做到現在，我是不是請我們在金門的專案小組許副署長來報告，好不好？"],["吳委員沛憶：好。"],["許副署長靜芝：委員好，我們在2月15號當天就已經先設立了牌位，對亡者實施拜飯，按照目前臺灣的習俗，頭七的時候，我們為他舉辦了法會，我也親自到法會的現場去上香，這個就是當天我們的照片。"],["吳委員沛憶：所以我們海巡署是不是由您親自去上香？我們去上香了幾次？"],["許副署長靜芝：我們每一天都有去拜飯上香。"],["吳委員沛憶：每天都去上香，那我想請問，中方的人員有沒有來上香過？"],["許副署長靜芝：就目前所知是沒有。"],["吳委員沛憶：中方的人員，從我們設立靈堂到現在沒有來上香過？"],["許副署長靜芝：但是有去現場招過魂。"],["吳委員沛憶：包括家屬也沒有來上香？"],["許副署長靜芝：是的。"],["吳委員沛憶：是你們海巡署不讓中方人員來靈堂上香嗎？有沒有這樣的事情？"],["許副署長靜芝：金門殯儀館是開放的，只要在開放的時間內都可以去。"],["吳委員沛憶：好。我聽說中方甚至不讓家屬來上香，我希望沒有這樣的事情，所以我剛剛也必須要跟你們確認，是不是我們也不讓家屬來上香？未來如果有這樣的需求，我希望我們海巡署可以盡力來協助，盡到我們人道的關懷，可不可以做到？"],["許副署長靜芝：可以。"],["吳委員沛憶：接下來我也想要請問，在我們目前跟中方的協商當中，我們協商的次數有十多次，在協商當中，中方有沒有聚焦於要去定義這次的事件是「碰撞」或者是「衝撞」？有沒有聚焦在討論這一個名詞的使用？因為它包含了對事件的定義，有沒有這樣的事情？"],["許副署長靜芝：我想這個部分，中方對本次事件的定性，一直定義在一個惡性衝撞的範圍之內，經過幾次溝通以後，他們開始逐漸把惡性的名詞拿掉，剩下撞擊的這個部分。"],["吳委員沛憶：撞擊？所以確實在協商當中，中方是有主張要使用「衝撞」或是「碰撞」這樣的名詞，那你們有沒有同意？你們認同嗎？"],["許副署長靜芝：報告，我們專案小組絕對不接受。"],["吳委員沛憶：我們為什麼不接受？"],["許副署長靜芝：因為這是對本次事件的一個定性，在真相還沒有呈現出來之前，我們不接受這樣的定性。"],["吳委員沛憶：那真相要由誰來釐清？"],["許副署長靜芝：必須要由獨立的司法機關來做調查一切真相。"],["吳委員沛憶：沒有錯，現在金門地檢署、司法已經介入調查，我今天在這裡要再一次提醒這件事，這個不是用協商可以來談的，包括你們海巡署、包括海委會，你們沒有權利也沒有資格來對事件做定義，因為真相必須交由司法來釐清，所以中方及我方，我們對於「衝撞」、「碰撞」的名詞有不同的見解，你們在協商當中，絕對不能退讓。因為這不是用協商可以談的，真相要交由司法來釐清，海巡署、海委會有沒有辦法保證？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們從頭到尾都堅持說，臺灣是一個法治國家，一定要經過獨立的、公正的司法審判釐清之後，才能夠據以釐清責任。我們一方面勿枉勿縱，一方面我們應該要擔負的責任都會擔負起來。"],["吳委員沛憶：是，沒有錯，我們臺灣是一個民主法治的國家，所以我認為這一次的事件，我現在聽下來，我的結論是，這是一個在執法過程當中發生的意外事故，針對意外事故的部分，我們再協商以及要交由司法來釐清，但是我們海巡署執法的正當性，我們政府絕對要來捍衛。","這次事件本身，第一件我想要確認的是，這個三無船舶在臺灣以及中國是不是都是違法的？"],["管主任委員碧玲：報告委員，三無的船舶只要無船名，它進入到我們的禁限制水域的話，依兩岸人民關係條例跟施行細則的規定，我們就是可以扣留、可以留置人員，而且可以有所處置。"],["吳委員沛憶：但中國方面，對於三無船舶，他們的查緝跟罰則是什麼？"],["管主任委員碧玲：他們比我們更重，每一艘如果是查緝到的話，都是會沒收，而且還會罰高額的款，然後會要求一定要拆解。"],["吳委員沛憶：所以三無船舶在中國也是違法的。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：我想請問，過去中國有沒有曾經尋求我方的協助，請我們一起來進行三無船舶的查緝？過去有沒有這樣子的案例？"],["管主任委員碧玲：過去在兩岸協同執法的過程當中，偶有中國……也是有過多次……希望我們來……"],["吳委員沛憶：所以過去曾經發生過嗎？這不是第一次發生嘛！這並不是一個特例嘛！"],["管主任委員碧玲：我想這個部分，我們署長來說明的話，可以更讓委員知道……"],["吳委員沛憶：可以，過去有沒有發生過？"],["主席：請署長。"],["周副主任委員美伍：協同執法一直在做，就是雙方的海洋執法單位……"],["吳委員沛憶：一直在做，這是常年的往例，在這一次事件發生的時候，當時是有4人落海，我們看到了三無漁船，我們看到了非法船隻，我們一定要進行取締。在這個追逐的過程當中發生翻覆，4人落海，我們有沒有進行搜救？"],["周副主任委員美伍：我們立刻進行搜救。"],["吳委員沛憶：我們第一時間進行搜救嗎？"],["周副主任委員美伍：對，立刻進行搜救。"],["吳委員沛憶：有沒有延誤？"],["周副主任委員美伍：沒有延誤。"],["吳委員沛憶：第一時間進行搜救……"],["周副主任委員美伍：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：然後我們救回了……"],["周副主任委員美伍：我們4個人都救回來了……"],["吳委員沛憶：我們4個人……"],["周副主任委員美伍：送醫之後，有2位因為急救無效，所以宣告……"],["吳委員沛憶：我們在海上的，不管是案件當中發生需要救援或者是海上的人道救援，過去有沒有發生過？"],["周副主任委員美伍：有。"],["吳委員沛憶：尤其是中國的船隻以及中國的船隻人員相關需要，過去有沒有發生過？"],["周副主任委員美伍：有、有，幾乎每年都有……"],["吳委員沛憶：發生過。"],["周副主任委員美伍：我們從來不分彼此，只要這種救生救難……"],["吳委員沛憶：過去5年來這個次數大約是多少，署長有沒有辦法回答？"],["周副主任委員美伍：我想我們有一個詳細的數字，我可以做一個報告。"],["吳委員沛憶：是，請報告。"],["周副主任委員美伍：我們在110年有8個案件，我們救援了8艘中國的船，救援了58個人；在111年我們有7個案件，我們救援的船數有7艘，救援起來的人數有54人；112年有2次案件，救援的船只有1艘，救援的人數是7個人；所以在過去3年我們一共發生了17件這樣子救生救難的案件，我們救援了中國16艘的船隻，也救援了119個人，這是我們一個準確的統計數字。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，所以我們的救援在過去也是常年的往例，其實這一次也不是特例嘛！"],["周副主任委員美伍：沒有，這就是一個正常的執行工作，我們在海上除了執法，還要救生救難。"],["吳委員沛憶：那目前我們協商了10幾次……"],["周副主任委員美伍：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：署長，我們最主要的困難點、協商沒有辦法達成共識是什麼原因呢？既然兩岸協同執法過去是往例、慣例，既然海上的救援這也不是第一次發生，這一次我們目前協商遇到的困難是什麼？"],["周副主任委員美伍：我想我就以我的角度來看，因為這一次中方一直提出一些條件說，我舉例說明，我們說要真相，那我們一定要等司法整個調查完畢之後，它會給一個判斷，會給一個判定或者一個結果，但是他們認為這個不能夠接受，我們這一方一定要堅持我們的司法制度，我們一定要堅持按照我們的司法制度來走這個程序，但他們堅持他們的想法，所以我們在很多的點上面會有一些衝突，但是這個衝突在我們十幾次的過程當中慢慢有趨近，我們有趨近，所以我們還呼籲我們中方談判的不管是同仁也好家屬也好，希望我們能夠再儘速還是以這樣子一個好的氛圍繼續談判下去。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，我希望我們循往例，這樣的事件按照我方的司法、我們的法制、我們過去的執法來進行……"],["周副主任委員美伍：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：不要把這個事件政治化……"],["周副主任委員美伍：瞭解。"],["吳委員沛憶：這個事件是可以按照我們的執法去處理的……"],["周副主任委員美伍：是，瞭解，好。"],["吳委員沛憶：在協商的過程當中如果有條件說，如果是涉及到政治條件說，我希望你們一定要捍衛堅定我們的立場……"],["周副主任委員美伍：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：絕對不能退讓，因為這牽涉到我們海巡執法的正當性……"],["周副主任委員美伍：當然。"],["吳委員沛憶：絕對不能答應！"],["周副主任委員美伍：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：如果答應了，未來臺灣的水域會成為海盜的天堂，所有的三無船舶都來臺灣的海域，絕對不可以讓這樣的事情發生，可不可以做到？"],["周副主任委員美伍：我們一定會秉持這樣執法的信念。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，謝謝。"],["主席：非常謝謝吳沛憶委員的質詢，也謝謝主委，謝謝署長，謝謝。","繼續請李坤城委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":328,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-2","speakers":["高金素梅","傅崐萁","陳雪生","王美惠","洪孟楷","蘇巧慧","李柏毅","麥玉珍","徐欣瑩","丁學忠","許宇甄","張智倫","黃建賓","牛煦庭","張宏陸","黃捷","吳琪銘","沈伯洋","羅智強","賴士葆","吳沛憶","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳冠廷","楊瓊瓔","王鴻薇","張啓楷"],"page_start":227,"meetingDate":["2024-03-04"],"gazette_id":"1130501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130501_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請海洋委員會主任委員、大陸委員會主任委員、國防部及海軍司令部參謀長就「金門撞船案：\n翻船執法過程及後續處理」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130501_00018"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.11534375000000001,"end":0.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":0.13221875,"end":0.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.99284375,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2.0559687500000003,"end":6.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11.556593750000001,"end":12.754718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12.974093750000002,"end":34.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":34.962218750000005,"end":38.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":38.438468750000006,"end":41.830343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":42.50534375,"end":43.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.19284375,"end":44.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":44.20971875,"end":46.470968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.22659375,"end":44.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":45.03659375,"end":45.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":46.150343750000005,"end":52.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":52.30971875,"end":54.486593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":54.773468750000006,"end":63.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":63.37971875,"end":63.73409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.48471875,"end":68.44221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.77971875,"end":84.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.36784375,"end":89.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":88.42221875,"end":93.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.44221875000001,"end":97.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":97.41659375,"end":98.78346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":99.28971875,"end":100.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":101.11221875000001,"end":102.63096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":102.69846875,"end":103.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":103.99784375,"end":104.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.36034375000001,"end":108.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":109.33034375000001,"end":110.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":110.71409375,"end":114.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.82346875,"end":115.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":117.00846875,"end":118.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":118.54409375,"end":119.89409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":120.24846875,"end":125.12534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.39534375000001,"end":125.74971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.10409375,"end":129.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.90096875,"end":131.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":132.07784375,"end":133.88346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":134.13659375,"end":139.45221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":140.02596875,"end":152.46284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.42471875,"end":153.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.82534375,"end":155.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":155.41596875000002,"end":157.59284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":158.01471875000001,"end":181.08284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.48346875000001,"end":184.00221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.39034375,"end":185.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.94284375,"end":186.98909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.27596875,"end":193.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.70096875000002,"end":202.61534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.44221875000002,"end":204.21846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.64034375,"end":208.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.68596875,"end":211.08659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":211.77846875,"end":221.85284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":222.52784375000002,"end":223.32096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.38409375,"end":225.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.97034375,"end":227.20221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":227.80971875,"end":228.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.59846875000002,"end":233.44596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.12096875,"end":236.36534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":236.88846875000002,"end":238.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.62221875,"end":241.83284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.03534375,"end":242.69346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":242.67659375000002,"end":258.10034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.91284375,"end":243.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":258.57284375,"end":264.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":264.78284375000004,"end":273.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":273.84471875,"end":281.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":283.73346875000004,"end":301.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沒問題"},{"start":154.824,"end":180.894,"text":"可以好接下來我也想要請問在我們目前跟中方的協商當中我們協商了十多次的次數在協商當中中方有沒有聚焦於要去定義這次的事件是碰撞或是衝撞有沒有聚焦於討論這一個名詞的使用因為它包含了對事件的定義有沒有這樣的事情"},{"start":182.523,"end":210.929,"text":"我想這個部分這個中方他對這個本事事件的定性他一直就是定義在一個惡性的一個衝撞的一個範圍之內那經過幾次溝通了以後他們開始有逐漸的把這個惡性的這個名詞拿掉那剩下撞擊的這個部分"},{"start":211.86,"end":212.82,"text":"那真相要由誰來釐清?"},{"start":239.653,"end":263.161,"text":"必須要由獨立的司法機關來做調查沒有錯現在金門地檢署司法已經介入調查我今天在這裡要再一次提醒這件事這個不是用協商可以來談的包括你們海巡署包括海委會你們也沒有權利沒有資格來對事件做定義因為真相必須交由司法來釐清"},{"start":264.821,"end":281.608,"text":"所以中方及我方我們對於撐撞、碰撞的名詞我們有不同的見解你們在協商當中絕對不能退讓因為這不是用協商可以談的真相要交由司法來釐清海巡署、海委會有沒有辦法保證"},{"start":283.752,"end":298.179,"text":"我們從頭到尾都堅持說台灣是一個法治國家一定要經過獨立的公正的司法審判釐清之後才能夠來依據釐清的責任我們一方面勿萬勿眾一方面我們應該要擔負的責任都會擔負起來"},{"start":301.44,"end":306.544,"text":"沒有錯我們台灣是一個民主法治的國家所以我認為這一次的事件我現在聽下來我的結論是這是一個在執法過程當中發生的意外事故針對意外事故的部分我們在協商以及要交由司法來釐清但是我們海巡署執法的正當性我們政府絕對要來捍衛這一次的事件本身第一件我想要確認的是這個三無船破"},{"start":331.061,"end":334.445,"text":"在臺灣以及中國是不是都是違法的?"},{"start":349.912,"end":366.957,"text":"但中國方面對於三五傳播他們的查緝跟罰則是什麼?他們比我們更重每一艘如果是查緝到的話都是會沒收而且還會罰高額的款然後會要求一定要拆解"},{"start":367.817,"end":385.794,"text":"所以三五傳破在中國也是違法的我想請問過去中國有沒有曾經尋求我方的協助尋求我們一起來進行三五傳破的查緝過去有沒有這樣子的案例過去在兩岸"},{"start":387.044,"end":390.145,"text":"過去曾經發生過?這不是第一次發生嗎?這並不是一個特例嗎?過去有沒有發生過?"},{"start":402.99,"end":405.312,"text":"我們立刻進行搜救沒有延誤"},{"start":430.868,"end":434.439,"text":"第一時間進行搜救,然後我們救回了"},{"start":435.438,"end":461.74,"text":"我們四個人都救回來了那送醫之後有兩位就是因為這個急救無效所以他宣告我們在海上的不管是我們的案件當中發生需要救援或者是海上的救援人道救援過去有沒有發生過尤其是中國的船隻以及中國的船隻這個人員相關需要我們說的過去有沒有發生過"},{"start":462.461,"end":462.481,"text":"吳沛憶議員"},{"start":481.112,"end":499.09,"text":"我們在110年我們有8個案件我們救援了8艘中國的船救援了58個人在111年我們有7個案件我們有救援的船數有7艘救援起來的人數有54人"},{"start":500.652,"end":525.711,"text":"一百一十二年有兩次案件救援的船只有一艘救援的人數是七個人所以我們在過去三年我們一共發生了17件這樣子救生救難的案件我們救援了中國16艘的船隻然後也救援了一百一十九個人這是我們一個準確的統計數字"},{"start":527.179,"end":527.199,"text":"吳沛憶議員"},{"start":544.809,"end":559.822,"text":"我們最主要的困難點協商沒有辦法達成共識是什麼原因呢?既然這個兩岸協同執法這過去是往例、慣例既然海上的救援這也不是第一次發生這一次我們目前協商遇到的困難是什麼?"},{"start":560.462,"end":587.77,"text":"我想我就由我的角度來看因為這一次中方一直提出一些條件說那譬如說我舉例說明我們說要真相那我們一定要等司法的整個的調查完畢之後他會給一個判斷會給一個判定或者一個結果但是他認為這個我不能夠接受"},{"start":588.79,"end":603.873,"text":"我們這方一定要堅持我們的司法制度我們一定要堅持按照我們的司法制度來走這個程序但他們堅持就是他們的一個想法所以我們在很多的點上面會有一些衝突"},{"start":604.434,"end":604.454,"text":"吳沛憶議員"},{"start":622.999,"end":641.044,"text":"還是以這樣子的一個好的一個氛圍我們繼續談判下去我希望呢我們就是徐往立這樣的事件按照我方的司法我們的法治我們過去的執法來進行不要把這個事件政治化這事件是可以按照我們的執法去處理的"},{"start":642.464,"end":670.298,"text":"在協商的過程當中如果有條件說如果是涉及到政治條件說我希望你們一定要捍衛堅定我們的立場絕對不能退讓因為這牽涉到我們海巡執法的正當性絕對不能答應如果答應了未來台灣的水域成為海盜的天堂所有的三無船破都來台灣的海域絕對不可以讓這樣的事情發生可不可以做到我們一定會秉持這樣執法的信念好 謝謝"},{"start":672.561,"end":672.966,"text":"好,非常謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}