{"error":false,"id":["149302"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149302,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149302","日期":"2024-03-04","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-15-2","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":2,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[15],"委員會代碼:str":["內政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-04T14:57:29+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-04T15:08:37+08:00","影片長度":"00:11:08","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2ddda3b3c952901f38174df0e2384efaf28bf8ba9b0039caa7a66ec415f885f277df5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"14:57:29 - 15:08:37","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請海洋委員會主任委員、大陸委員會主任委員、國防部及海軍司令部參謀長就「金門撞船案:翻船執法過程及後續處理」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":1927,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（14時57分）謝謝主席。請我們的管主委。"],["主席：有請管主委。"],["管主任委員碧玲：李委員好！"],["李委員坤城：主委好，主委也辛苦了！這次關於中國三無船舶因為遭到取締導致翻覆的這個案子到目前為止總共談判了幾次？"],["管主任委員碧玲：15次，13天15次。"],["李委員坤城：談判了15次。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是。"],["李委員坤城：最新的談判進度是怎麼樣？最後一次談判的結果是怎麼樣？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們在逐漸趨近之中，是不是還是由在最前線我們許副署長來看看哪一些事情適合說明，這樣好不好？"],["李委員坤城：好，沒關係！可以對外說明的就說清楚，就是最後一次、第15次的談判到底談判的重點在哪裡，卡在哪裡，能不能請副署長來講一下？"],["許副署長靜芝：最近的一次也就是在昨天，陸方主要的訴求由於我們兩岸法律制度的不同所以在共識的凝聚方面還有相當的落差，往後我們還會來持續溝通……"],["李委員坤城：你說法律制度的不同是指什麼？"],["許副署長靜芝：就是彼此的法律作業程序。"],["李委員坤城：你這樣講其實我不太清楚，是他們要求我們要先道歉嗎？那我們是希望等這個司法調查結果出來之後再說嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：類似這樣，就是包括真相也好或者是究責也好，臺灣有臺灣的司法制度在，我們有我們的法制體系，我們總是認為應該要到最後真相釐清的時候有些事情我們才能做，也因此我們會希望大家能夠瞭解臺灣司法制度的情況之下，我們現在先抽離這個司法未來冗長程序的限制，我們先用撫慰的方式越快地給予家屬最大的照顧，畢竟他們的家長過世，基於對家屬的照顧，所以我們很希望在司法還未完成前能用人道撫慰的制度來談。"],["李委員坤城：我們就是想先處理人道撫慰金的部分，但中方是要求我們先道歉嗎？如果卡在這邊要怎麼談下去？"],["管主任委員碧玲：當所有這些事情都要一起同時解決的時候，難免就會遇到比較多的困難。"],["李委員坤城：今天王定宇委員表示在談判過程中有中方要求我們的海巡人員到對岸接受詢問，有沒有這件事情？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們剛剛有重複說明了一下……"],["李委員坤城：本席剛剛沒有聽到啊！請簡單扼要的說明。"],["許副署長靜芝：協商的過程中曾經有提出這樣的訴求，經過我們多次的溝通之後，已經逐步的化解了。"],["李委員坤城：剛開始就有提出這種要求嗎？"],["許副署長靜芝：是在過程中，不是一開始。"],["李委員坤城：除了這個之外，還有沒有其他是我們認為無理的要求？"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員，我想我們不用「無理」兩個字，是對於制度認知的落差，我一直都希望是這樣定位，因為我們還是要秉持善意。舉一個例子，撫慰金或賠償是兩個完全不同的概念，因為在制度的認知上真的有很大的落差，所以包括這個部分到現在也都還在努力中。"],["李委員坤城：因為你們在第一線談判，我知道你們的用詞會比較低調一點點，但是站在我們的立場，該堅守的就是要堅守啊！沒有什麼要我們的人過去詢問的這種事，不然以後要怎麼執法？我們是取締非法的三無船舶，對不對？對不對？"],["管主任委員碧玲：是。"],["李委員坤城：我們要取締三無船舶，中國要不要取締？"],["管主任委員碧玲：他們規定也很嚴格。"],["李委員坤城：中國有沒有要求我們也要取締？"],["管主任委員碧玲：過去偕同執法的時候……"],["李委員坤城：有沒有？"],["許副署長靜芝：有。"],["李委員坤城：對啊！兩邊都要取締這種三無船舶嘛！對不對？這次也是三無船舶，基本上，越到我們的禁限制海域，我們就是要取締，對不對？"],["管主任委員碧玲：是。"],["李委員坤城：對啊！所以我認為整件事情就是三無船舶接近我們的、侵入我們的禁限制海域，接獲這個消息後我們的海巡署就過去，希望了解這個三無船舶是要做什麼，在調查的過程中，根據早上署長的說法，他們的速度非常快，最後是不是有導致翻覆的情況，當然這個還是要由司法調查。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是。"],["李委員坤城：但是就我們的立場而言，第一個，我們是在執法、我們是在取締非法，所以我支持管主委把這個專案報告名稱改成取締大陸籍快艇事故，這個我是支持的，也是要站穩臺灣的主權。","再請問一下，520之前會不會有類似這種的灰色地帶，譬如接近我們的禁限制海域，上次也發生過他們的海警船登檢我們的遊艇，會不會有這種類似的情況？你們研判會不會再發生，藉此壓迫我們的新政府？"],["管主任委員碧玲：報告委員，我們就是用越界捕魚的規定處理。"],["李委員坤城：除了越界捕魚之外？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們並沒有把它當成是灰色地帶戰略，至於登檢，我們真的很不願意看到還有第二次。基本上，其實登檢也是很罕有，而且多半都是在政治氛圍的情況之下發生，譬如去年演習的那個階段以及這一次。這是一個比較政治性的登檢，在中國的兩次登檢過程中，我必須說一句公道話，基本上還是有某種程度的節制在裡面。"],["李委員坤城：既然船是臺灣的船，我認為登檢就要有節制、我認為要有節制。"],["管主任委員碧玲：但是我們認為不應該登檢，這是我們堅定的主張。"],["李委員坤城：如果它登檢了呢？像上次它就登檢了。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們有SOP，報告委員，海巡署更可以來說明，我們都知道這個定位是政治性的登檢，所以當它是政治性的登檢時，它就不是說海盜來了要登檢，什麼你叫他去送死、你叫他不要停，不是的！不是的！在這樣的政治性氛圍情況之下的登檢，我們的SOP就是希望我們的民船趕快與海巡聯絡，我們就會趕快去馳援，在這個過程之中……"],["李委員坤城：這樣來得及嗎？上次就是讓他們上去登檢了啊！"],["管主任委員碧玲：在這個過程之中保持安全，能夠與我們對開是最好的。報告委員，在這樣的一個SOP之下，我們總是希望這樣的行動不要再繼續有更高的衝突。"],["李委員坤城：我們的SOP就是不讓它登檢，所以我們就先回來，目前是這樣子嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們從海巡同仁口中的說明就可以更精確，好嗎？請我們的巡防組長來說明。"],["李委員坤城：簡單講一下。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是。"],["廖組長雲宏：我是巡防組長，首先我們是針對海域進行區分，分別從限制水域外、到限制水域、乃至於到禁止水域。"],["李委員坤城：上次我們的那艘遊艇呢？"],["廖組長雲宏：這艘遊艇是在限制水域外，通常我們會先透過雷達偵知有這艘船，之後再透過監控，如果它進入我們的水域內，或是被我發現的時候，我會馬上通報我們的線上巡防艇過去，切到大陸的公務船與我方船舶之間，之後再透過兩岸協調的管道進行溝通，以上。"],["李委員坤城：如果在520之前有類似的事情發生，是不是不應該讓他們上船登檢？"],["廖組長雲宏：絕對是這個態度與立場。"],["李委員坤城：對啊！上次就是讓他們上船登檢過了啊！這也算是臺灣主權的延伸耶！對不對？這是我們的船耶！它憑什麼上船登檢，我們有違規嗎？"],["廖組長雲宏：是，我們也嚴正表達過這個態度。"],["李委員坤城：我們有違規嗎？"],["廖處長雲宏：沒有。"],["李委員坤城：沒有違規啊！憑什麼他們要上船登檢？沒有這個權力嘛！"],["管主任委員碧玲：在政治氛圍中的行動。"],["李委員坤城：在1989年，也就是35年前，中國在海域上還有萬船齊發，你知道嗎？這個萬船齊發也是一個政治性的氛圍，那時候就是要來嚇阻啊！我不知道現在到520之前會不會有類似的這些狀況？中國現在不依法取締他們的三無船舶，我認為是單純對中國漁民違法行為的放任，還是官方支持對金馬海域的干擾執法，這些都是有可能的。","剩下最後1分鐘，我對這件事情有3個堅持，希望海委會這邊能夠堅持下去，第一個，涉及管轄權的問題、涉及主權的問題，絕對不能有任何讓步。第二個，對於中國漁民的違法行為，取締不能打折，兩岸對於三無船舶都是要取締的，所以不能打折。第三個，給予人道撫慰金不能有任何附加條件，我們願意給對方的罹難者人道撫慰金，但是不能讓對岸有任何的附加條件。主委，在談判的過程中是否能至少堅守這三個原則？"],["管主任委員碧玲：報告委員，我們交給專案小組做為參考，好不好？謝謝。"],["李委員坤城：我是希望取締非法、維持合法、堅守臺灣的主權，在這次的談判過程中，我認為是要堅守下去的，好不好？"],["許副署長靜芝：是，謝謝委員指導，我們一定會。"],["李委員坤城：接下來還會再繼續談判下去嗎？"],["許副署長靜芝：會的。"],["李委員坤城：他們還留在金門嗎？"],["許副署長靜芝：是的。"],["李委員坤城：如果今天沒有排這個專案報告，你們就會留在那邊嗎？"],["許副署長靜芝：報告委員，談判的時間不是重點，立場要彼此調整，釋出最大的善意才是重點。"],["李委員坤城：我當然知道時間不是重點。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們會掌握所有的節奏，好不好？謝謝委員。"],["李委員坤城：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝李坤城委員的質詢，也謝謝管主委及副署長，謝謝你們，謝謝。","請邱議瑩委員、邱議瑩委員、邱議瑩委員不在。","請鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":328,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-2","speakers":["高金素梅","傅崐萁","陳雪生","王美惠","洪孟楷","蘇巧慧","李柏毅","麥玉珍","徐欣瑩","丁學忠","許宇甄","張智倫","黃建賓","牛煦庭","張宏陸","黃捷","吳琪銘","沈伯洋","羅智強","賴士葆","吳沛憶","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳冠廷","楊瓊瓔","王鴻薇","張啓楷"],"page_start":227,"meetingDate":["2024-03-04"],"gazette_id":"1130501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130501_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請海洋委員會主任委員、大陸委員會主任委員、國防部及海軍司令部參謀長就「金門撞船案：\n翻船執法過程及後續處理」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130501_00018"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.06471875,"end":0.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.0434687500000002,"end":2.5115937500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3.1697187500000004,"end":4.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.13909375,"end":10.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10.15596875,"end":11.084093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.172843750000002,"end":11.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.30346875,"end":12.400343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.822218750000001,"end":22.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":23.53784375,"end":27.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.668468750000002,"end":25.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.828468750000003,"end":30.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":28.07721875,"end":28.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.38471875,"end":33.072218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":33.54471875,"end":33.56159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":33.66284375,"end":36.970343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.37971875,"end":36.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":37.54409375,"end":47.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.572218750000005,"end":52.259093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.71471875,"end":54.250343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.60471875,"end":55.515968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.515968750000006,"end":55.532843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.08971875,"end":57.119093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.119093750000005,"end":57.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.38909375,"end":58.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.40159375,"end":58.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.41846875,"end":59.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.532218750000006,"end":59.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.034093750000004,"end":63.447218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.89409375000001,"end":72.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.66096875000001,"end":83.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.38534375,"end":82.33034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.67159375,"end":87.02159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.29159375,"end":89.35034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.35034375000001,"end":89.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.22784375,"end":90.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.24471875,"end":96.94409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":96.89346875000001,"end":128.77034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.02409375,"end":98.15909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":104.23409375,"end":104.26784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":129.32721875000001,"end":157.52534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.98284375,"end":147.43409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.43409375000002,"end":147.46784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.20096875000002,"end":160.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.12784375,"end":164.62971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":163.14471875,"end":173.13471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.26971875,"end":183.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":185.74034375000002,"end":190.02659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":190.11096875,"end":190.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.21221875,"end":192.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.51596875,"end":190.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.65909375,"end":193.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.21596875,"end":194.27909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.56596875000002,"end":199.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.94909375,"end":204.65721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.72471875000002,"end":205.65284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.03659375,"end":208.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.77471875,"end":208.90971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.23034375,"end":212.68971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.68971875000003,"end":212.70659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":213.16221875000002,"end":225.48096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.49534375000002,"end":214.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.98409375000003,"end":219.40596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.43471875,"end":225.80159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":225.58221875,"end":236.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.31471875000003,"end":239.21721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.31846875000002,"end":242.37284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.74409375000002,"end":244.21221875},{"speaker":"S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bypass 我們這個司法的我們先來抽離這個司法一個未來的一個冗長程序的限制我們先用撫慰的方式"},{"start":138.643,"end":139.123,"text":"中方要求我們先道歉嗎?"},{"start":163.157,"end":163.978,"text":"我們剛剛有重複說明了一下"},{"start":190.179,"end":190.559,"text":"剛剛有提出這種要求嗎?是..."},{"start":212.021,"end":235.891,"text":"委員我想我們不用無理兩個字的話就是說對於制度認知的落差我一直都希望這樣定位因為我們還是要秉持善意那舉一個例子就是說撫慰金或者是賠償這兩個概念完全不同因為在制度的認識上真的有很大的落差所以包括這個部分現在也都還在努力之中"},{"start":236.371,"end":250.161,"text":"因為你們在第一線談判所以你們的用詞我知道會比較低調一點點但是站在我們的立場該堅守就是要堅守啊這沒有什麼叫我們的人過去詢問那也要怎麼執法我們是取締非法的善無傳播對不對"},{"start":252.961,"end":272.806,"text":"山無船舶我們要取締,中國要不要取締?他們規定也很嚴格中國有沒有要求我們也要取締?過去協同執法的時候兩邊都要取締這種山無船舶嘛對不對那這一次也是山無船舶嘛基本上越到我們的這個季限制海域我們就是要取締嘛對不對"},{"start":274.847,"end":296.197,"text":"所以整個事情就是我認為啦就是說三無船舶接近我們的侵入我們的季限制海域那我們知道這個消息了然後我們海巡署就過去了希望了解說到底這個三無船舶在做什麼嘛那在這個要調查的過程當中那他們我按照這個這個早上那個署長的說法速度非常的快"},{"start":297.79,"end":324.138,"text":"然後最後是不是有導致翻覆的情況當然這個司法還是要做調查當然就我們的立場來講說第一個我們是在執法我們是在取締非法所以我是支持這個管主委把這個專案報告名稱改成取締大陸及快艇事故這是我是支持的這是要站穩台灣的主權那我再請問一下因為在520之前會不會有類似這一種"},{"start":325.728,"end":329.451,"text":"報告委員 越界捕魚我們就是用越界捕魚除了越界捕魚之外我們沒有把它當作是灰色地帶戰略那至於說燈檢我們真的很不願意看到還有第二次"},{"start":354.95,"end":355.13,"text":"李坤城議員"},{"start":386.725,"end":394.45,"text":"我是希望說船是台灣的船要登檢我認為要有節制但是我們認為不應該登檢這個是我們堅定的主張我們有SOP所以報告委員我想海巡署他更可以來說明我們都知道這個定位是政治性的登檢"},{"start":413.081,"end":436.558,"text":"所以當他是政治性的登檢的時候他就不是說海盜來了要登檢什麼你叫他去送死叫他不要停不是的不是的所以在這樣的一種政治性的氛圍情況之下的登檢我們的SOP就是我們會希望我們的民船趕快跟我們海巡聯絡然後我們會趕快去馳援然後在這個過程之中在這個過程之中保持安全能夠跟我們對開是最好的"},{"start":441.441,"end":464.366,"text":"所以跟委員報告說在這樣的一個SOP之下我們總是希望能夠把這樣的一個行動然後不要再繼續我們的SOP就是我們就是不讓他登檢那我們就先回來目前是這樣子嗎我想我們從海巡同仁的口中來說明就可以更精確好嗎我們請我們巡防組的來簡單講一下"},{"start":469.538,"end":485.649,"text":"我是巡邏組長首先我們是針對海域來做區分分別從限制水域外到限制水域乃至於到禁止水域那上次的那一個我們的遊艇呢這一艘遊艇是在限制水域外是那通常我們在會先用透過雷達來"},{"start":486.81,"end":506.516,"text":"曾知知道這件事知道有這艘船之後我們會透過那個監控啊如果他進到裡面在我們的水域裡面或者我發現的時候我會馬上通報我們的線上請過去然後切到他大陸的公務船跟我方的船舶之間之後再透過兩岸協調的管道來做溝通"},{"start":507.824,"end":528.999,"text":"好 那說520之前如果類似的事情發生的話是不是不應該讓他們上船登檢?絕對是這個態度跟立場對啊 因為上次就讓他們登船上船登檢過啦欸 這也算是台灣主權的延伸欸對不對 這是我們的船欸他憑什麼來上船登檢?是 我們也延伸了這個態度我們有違規嗎?沒有沒有違規啊 那為什麼 憑什麼他們要來上船登檢?沒有這個權利嘛"},{"start":538.427,"end":556.404,"text":"在這個1989年的時候,三十五年前在中國在這個海域上面還有萬船齊發你知道嗎?這萬船齊發這也是一個政治性的氛圍那時候就是要來嚇阻那我不知道說現在在520之前會不會有類似這一種萬船齊發"},{"start":559.179,"end":586.624,"text":"中國現在不依法取締他們的商務船舶我認為是單純對中國漁民違法行為的放任還是官方支持對金馬海域的干擾執法這就可能剩下最後一分鐘這件事情我有三個堅持請海洋委員這邊我希望能夠堅持下去第一個涉及管轄權的問題涉及主權的問題絕對不能有任何讓步"},{"start":587.469,"end":614.041,"text":"2.對於中國漁民的違法行為取締不能打折3.給予人道的撫慰金不能有任何附加條件我們願意給對方罹難者人道撫慰金但是不能讓對岸有任何的附加條件主委 這個在談判的過程能不能堅守至少這三個原則"},{"start":615.417,"end":630.851,"text":"報告委員,我們交給專案小組,我們交給專案小組來作為參考好不好?好不好?我是希望,取締非法、維持合法、堅守台灣的主權在這次的談判過程當中,我認為是要堅守下去的好不好?是,謝謝委員知道,我們一定會接下來還會再繼續在談判下去嗎?會的他們還留在金門嗎?"},{"start":640.828,"end":644.271,"text":"我們會掌握所有的節奏好不好好 謝謝李坤城委員、哲勳也謝謝管主委、然後副組長"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}