{"error":false,"id":["149304"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149304,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149304","日期":"2024-03-04","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-15-2","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":2,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[15],"委員會代碼:str":["內政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-04T10:49:29+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-04T11:02:44+08:00","影片長度":"00:13:15","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2ddd61afbe2af26f938e4df0e2384efaf28bf8ba9b0039caa7a61d50f808a30dc8d95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃建賓","委員發言時間":"10:49:29 - 11:02:44","會議時間":"2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請海洋委員會主任委員、大陸委員會主任委員、國防部及海軍司令部參謀長就「金門撞船案:翻船執法過程及後續處理」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":510,"blocks":[["黃委員建賓：（10時49分）主席、在場的各位委員先進、主委及現場所有的媒體朋友，大家早。我想要請教一下我們的海洋……"],["主席：海巡署的署長嗎？"],["黃委員建賓：海洋委員會的主委。"],["主席：好，請海洋委員會的管主委，謝謝。"],["管主任委員碧玲：黃委員好。"],["黃委員建賓：主委早安。主委，以前我對你印象都是在電視上，那是在擔任立委的時候，主委給我的印象就是專業而且溫柔，但是問題都尖銳，身為一個民意代表非常的成功，今天我也看到功力不減。但還是提醒一下主委，我想換了位置就換個腦袋是正常的，但是我相信依主委這麼資深的經歷，也應該知道要尊重立法權這件事情，就不會發生我們早上這麼多的話題。我來委員會的第一天，張宏陸委員就說我們的傳統是很peace、內政委員很peace，那我也想說應該是會很開心的在這裡來共同解決我們民眾的需求，沒想到今天一開會就看到現場這麼多的媒體跟朋友。當然，一個題目的變更會造成很大的話題，甚至它可能是引發起兩岸的問題，我希望主委這邊，未來我們能夠就這個部分儘量避免不要再發生。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我希望這個案件未來我們無論如何能夠避免再發生，所以這樣的爭議應該也就不會發生，前提是這件事情真的太重大，我謝謝委員的包容。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝主委，有時候還是要尊重一下我們的委員，也是要有立場。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是啦！海巡的立場實在是要支持。"],["黃委員建賓：你看我到現在都不小心講錯，都叫委員，其實要叫主委啦！"],["管主任委員碧玲：主任委員也有「委員」兩個字，謝謝。"],["黃委員建賓：我簡單的說，針對這次的金門撞船事件，其實發生大概就是兩個原因……"],["管主任委員碧玲：對不起，請委員支持海巡署改名，對他們來講真的太重大了，真的有需要。"],["主席：對不起主委，我必須要在這邊再糾正一下，今天的專案報告不是你們送來的專案報告，好不好？謝謝。"],["黃委員建賓：對啦！主委我都已經講成這樣了，你讓我好下台，你還這樣，對不對？我們現在提到的就是，整個引發最大爭議的原因就是因為影像這件事情，沒圖沒真相。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是。"],["黃委員建賓：沒圖沒真相，所以對於基層執勤的弟兄來講也非常的不公平，他們冒著生命危險在捍衛我們主權的同時、保護我們臺灣人民的同時，他必須因為沒有錄影設備而去背起這個責任，這個部分我覺得會後我們可以來討論……"],["管主任委員碧玲：對不起，錄影設備跟災難是兩件事，剛剛這個第一點恐怕是不是請委員能夠釐清，海巡署不是因為他們的過失造成災難，我能夠請委員再回到上一頁嗎？抱歉、抱歉、抱歉，因為海巡署的疏忽演變成災難，真的很抱歉，所以這個災難、這個事故，我想不是因為海巡署的疏忽，在登檢的過程中發生的事故，我們現在在等檢調來釐清、等檢察官來釐清，謝謝。如果說是因為沒有錄影帶的部分，我們真的是深深地感到抱歉，我再度也為沒有錄影帶的事情深深地感到抱歉。"],["黃委員建賓：好，謝謝主委。","主委，海巡署說因為我們缺乏錄影器材造成問題，海巡署說我們十噸級以下的巡邏艦艇，密錄器不是標配，因為這樣並沒有違規，我想這個是都把責任推到我們基層同仁的作法啦！完全要第一線同仁來承擔這個風險，我想今天……"],["管主任委員碧玲：這一點是替他們說明。"],["黃委員建賓：主委，如果今天沒有因為金門撞船事件這個意外發生，我真的不知道海巡署同仁沒有配戴密錄器，幾個委員提到，像學忠委員有提到這個在我們鄉下是警察值勤基本的配備，因為他不單單是要維護執行的安全，他也要確保自己的安全，所以密錄器是必備的，應該是這樣吧？"],["管主任委員碧玲：未來的勤務在這個部分，勤務的裝備跟勤務的管理，我們有一個全盤的策進小組，我們一定要落實……"],["黃委員建賓：對，我相信主委……"],["管主任委員碧玲：謝謝委員的關心，我們真的會痛加檢討，然後要全面地落實。"],["黃委員建賓：因為主委剛才有提到說主委上1年多解決很多問題，包括花了90億去修那個船嘛？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們的車子20年了，真的是追不到嫌犯，所以這部分也解決了，陸陸續續解決，一樣一樣……"],["黃委員建賓：所以那個密錄器的比例應該不大吧？"],["管主任委員碧玲：一樣一樣在解決，密錄器的部分我個人在偵防分署的部分讓它做到每一個人有一臺，這一點在我上任以後有要求，偵防分署的部分已經補到每一個人有一臺；金馬澎分署的部分我替他們找了100臺，過年後才到，所以當時那100臺還沒有到。所以其實我就任以後也陸陸續續地在解決密錄器，替海巡署做了很重要很重要的問題的解決，但是無論如何就這個部分真的接受所有委員的指導跟指教，我們一定要痛加檢討，未來絕對不允許在勤務上沒有落實，然後再發生這樣的事情。"],["黃委員建賓：我們部落很多弟兄都是在軍中服役，那有一些是在海巡單位服役，其實這件事情會對基層造成很大的打擊，因為他們會擔心未來如果我執勤到底要怎麼辦？如果說出了事情之後我要怎麼辦？"],["管主任委員碧玲：不過當天密錄器是夠的，當天密錄器是夠的。"],["黃委員建賓：那怎麼沒影片？"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，所以我有說在管理勤務落實的部分，我們有很多細膩的地方要檢討，但是當天他們就是依尋常的作法，用攝影的器材來出勤，而且他不是說我要去登檢，怎麼會你要出發沒有密錄器？不是，而是他已經在海上，用他尋常的標配在海上執勤的時候被調過來的，被調到現場去應處這件事情……"],["黃委員建賓：所以有這樣的設備在？"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，所以他用的就是標配，就是我們在每一艘 CP艇上面所給的手持式攝錄影機。"],["黃委員建賓：但是沒有影片。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我……好，來，分署長想要說明，我想更能夠瞭解事實，好不好？"],["黃委員建賓：好。"],["廖分署長德成：報告委員，我是艦隊分署的分署長廖德成，這邊再特別地說明，我們登檢的規定在密錄器的部分不一定是只有密錄器，只要能夠全程錄音錄影的設備就好，就是要在發動登檢的當時一定要全程錄音錄影，這個是我們一個勤務上面的規範，那當然如同我們主委講的，將來我們的勤務上面會再做檢討精進，以上。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝分署長的說明。"],["管主任委員碧玲：當時搖晃的程度讓他來不及，因為追逐的時間就短短的那麼5分鐘，而且是高速40節的過程。"],["黃委員建賓：我想署裡面也這樣說明，反正最重要的結果就是沒有影像，沒有影像可以去證明這件事情。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，這一點我們深感抱歉，我們一再地對社會表達我們的歉意。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝主委。主委，如果沒有影像，那船上應該有雷達軌跡，這個有嘛！對不對？"],["管主任委員碧玲：這個部分交給檢調了。"],["黃委員建賓：那我們既然有這樣的設備、有這樣的紀錄，有沒有辦法直接或間接的證明說撞船這件事情？有沒有辦法？"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，有沒有這個影像當然是其中讓我們瞭解案情當中的一環，但是事證的還原其實不是光靠這個影像，事證的還原有種種的跡證，從船舶的跡證、從人員的筆錄、從各方面，檢察官會去還原整個事實的真相。"],["黃委員建賓：是，主委，我剛才提的是你們有雷達軌跡，這個雷達軌跡可不可以直接或間接來證明有沒有撞船？我們現在不在講影像了，我們講這個東西……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們請檢察官來研判，目前在檢察官……"],["黃委員建賓：海巡署的專業沒有辦法判斷有沒有嗎？分署長，這個沒辦法嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：這個部分請署長來說明。"],["主席：請署長。"],["周副主任委員美伍：跟委員報告，我想這一次整個有關陸船翻覆的原因，依照我個人、我們同仁第一時間在做現場的調查跟整個證物的現象來看，我想主要有三個原因，在這邊跟您做個報告。第一個、它是高速右轉，這是第一個原因，這個高速右轉，它的速度是推到底，它的電門開關是開啟，另外，它的舵（就是方向盤）是打到右滿舵，右滿舵就是向右轉到底，如同我們這一張圖片，這樣子的狀況它是高速右轉。","第二個主要的原因是它的配重有問題，它是一個平底的、快速的船隻……"],["黃委員建賓：我相信你們都有專業，你們都有做過這些紀錄，因為時間的關係，這個會後是不是再提供給本委員會來……"],["周副主任委員美伍：委員，但是請你讓我講完，因為三個原因，我必須要講完。","第二個原因是配重的關係，因為它是一個平底的快艇，它有兩部400匹非常重的propeller（舷外機）在後端，所以理論上這個船平常就是這樣翹起來的，另外，它還有一個收網機，在它的右側，所以它的配重就不正常，正常狀況下，它加了這樣子的配重會右傾，它又在高速又右傾。","第三個最重要的原因……"],["黃委員建賓：署長，謝謝……"],["周副主任委員美伍：第三個，最後一個原因，第三個最重要的原因……"],["黃委員建賓：我的時間剩下55秒，不好意思，我只是要強調一件事情而已……"],["周副主任委員美伍：他的操縱不良，他不會操船……"],["黃委員建賓：如果我們都有這些資料，請盡快公布，但是我們……"],["周副主任委員美伍：這個船長只開了不到10次船，這艘船他1月份才買來的……"],["黃委員建賓：好啦！你可以讓我講一下嗎？"],["周副主任委員美伍：是，所以他沒有執照。"],["黃委員建賓：署長，你剛才強調的是整個船的機械原理架構，我只是要問……"],["管主任委員碧玲：報告委員，在最重要的案情部分真的需要說明。"],["黃委員建賓：你的軌跡能不能夠證明這樣的事情而已，我相信都在調查當中，也希望會後趕快把資料給我們委員會……"],["周副主任委員美伍：好，一定要。"],["黃委員建賓：我們也希望讓我們海巡弟兄執勤的時候除了能夠確保執勤的安全以外，也能夠還清自己的清白，我們絕對支持海巡弟兄依法行政，我們絕對支持！但是其實需要一個真相，也包括今天大家對我們弟兄們執勤的質疑……"],["周副主任委員美伍：是。"],["黃委員建賓：主委，我要提醒你，海巡署是屬於內政部，所以在我們內政委員會這邊來質詢，他不是軍隊，他是海上警察，他的執法必須小心，我也提醒主委，主委，這件事情不小心就會引起很大的爭端，這個造成的結果都不是在場所有委員樂意見的，今天不管是國民黨、民進黨或民眾黨，沒有人希望因為這件事情造成兩岸的升溫，而造成各行各業影響，這是本席要表達的，再次謝謝召委，謝謝主委，謝謝。"],["周副主任委員美伍：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝建賓委員的質詢，也謝謝你們的答詢。","我在這邊提醒一下署長，您剛剛所回答委員的這些為什麼在你們今天的專案報告裡面沒有更細部的說？這個是我要譴責你們的，如果今天這個專案報告能夠把你們更細部的這些如同你剛剛所講的提供給委員們做參考，你剛剛不會浪費太多的時間，我先譴責你們並沒有把這個細部的資料交給委員會，下次不可以這樣子，好不好？謝謝！","繼續請牛煦庭委員質詢，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":328,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-2","speakers":["高金素梅","傅崐萁","陳雪生","王美惠","洪孟楷","蘇巧慧","李柏毅","麥玉珍","徐欣瑩","丁學忠","許宇甄","張智倫","黃建賓","牛煦庭","張宏陸","黃捷","吳琪銘","沈伯洋","羅智強","賴士葆","吳沛憶","李坤城","鄭天財Sra 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委員支持海巡署改名對他們來講真的太重大了真的有需要對不起主委我要必須在這邊再糾正一下今天的狀況報告不是你們送來的狀況報告好不好 謝謝主委我都已經講成這樣了你讓我下台你還這樣對不對"},{"start":186.693,"end":202.083,"text":"所以我們現在提到的就是這件事情整個最引發最大爭議的原因就是因為影像這件事情沒圖沒真相是沒圖沒真相所以對於基層執行的必須發想也非常不公平他們冒著生命危險"},{"start":203.044,"end":231.122,"text":"在捍衛我們的主權的同時保護我們團隊的同時他必須因為沒有錄影設備而去背起這個責任這個部分我覺得會後我們可以來討論錄影設備跟災難是兩件事剛剛這個第一點恐怕是不是能夠請委員能夠釐清因為海巡署不是對不起我能夠海巡署不是因為他們的過失造成災難我能夠請委員再回到上一頁嗎"},{"start":232.863,"end":258.537,"text":"抱歉抱歉抱歉因為海巡署的疏忽演變成災難真的很抱歉是所以這個災難這個事故我想不是因為海巡署的疏忽在登檢的過程中發生的事故我們現在在等檢調來釐清等檢察官來釐清謝謝那如果說是因為沒有錄影帶的部分我們真的是深深的感到抱歉"},{"start":259.377,"end":259.717,"text":"好謝謝主委好"},{"start":272.282,"end":293.488,"text":"主委,海巡署說我們缺乏露營器材,這造成問題。主委,海巡署說我們10噸級以下的巡邏艦艇、密錄器不是標配,因為這樣並沒有違規。我想這個是都把責任推到我們基層同仁的做法,完全要以第一線同仁來承擔這個奉獻。"},{"start":295.209,"end":319.289,"text":"如果今天沒有因為金門撞船事件這個意外發生我真的不知道海巡署同仁沒有佩戴密錄器那個幾個委員提到像那個學生委員提到這個在我們鄉下是警察執勤基本的配備因為他不單單是要維護執勤的安全他也要確保自己的安全所以密錄器是必備的應該是這樣吧"},{"start":321.792,"end":340.501,"text":"我們未來的勤務在這個部分勤務的裝備跟勤務的管理我們有一個全盤的策進的小組我們一定要錄製委員的關心我們真的會痛加檢討因為主委剛才提到說主委上一年多解決很多問題包括花了到90億去修那個船"},{"start":341.121,"end":343.402,"text":"我個人在針黃分署的部分讓他做到每一個人有一台這一點在我上任以後有要求"},{"start":359.208,"end":381.161,"text":"金馬鵬分屬的部分我替他們找了100台那過年後才到所以當時那100台還沒有到所以密錄器我其實我就任以後也陸陸續續的在解決那有更大的問題替海巡署做了很重要很重要的問題的解決但是無論如何"},{"start":384.463,"end":396.546,"text":"就這個部分真的接受所有委員的指導跟指教我們一定要痛加檢討我們未來絕對不允許在勤務上沒有落實然後再發生這樣的事情"},{"start":398.14,"end":415.354,"text":"所以我們其實部分很多弟兄都是在軍融服役那有些是在海巡單位服役那其實這件事情會堆積成很大的打擊因為他們會擔心未來如果我執勤我到底要怎麼辦如果出了事情之後我要怎麼辦不過當天密錄器是夠的當天密錄器是夠的"},{"start":417.215,"end":441.485,"text":"所以我有說在我們的管理的勤務的落實的部分我們有很多細膩的地方要檢討但是當天他們就是依循常的做法用這個攝影的器材來出勤而且他不是說我要去登檢怎麼會你要出發沒有密錄器不是而是他已經在海上用他尋常的標配在海上執勤的時候被調過來的"},{"start":443.326,"end":465.94,"text":"被調到現場去應處這件事情所以有這樣的設備戰所以他用的就是標配就是我們在每一艘CP提醒上面所給的手持式的攝錄影集但是沒有影片好來那個分署長想要說更能夠了解事實好不好"},{"start":467.726,"end":485.234,"text":"報告委員我是艦隊分署的分署長廖德成這邊在特別的說明在特別的說明我們更簡的規定在密錄器的部分不一定是只有密錄器只要能夠全程錄音錄影的設備就好那就是要在"},{"start":485.754,"end":488.376,"text":"當時搖晃的程度讓他來不及因為追逐的時間就短短的那麼5分鐘而且是高速的40節的這個過程"},{"start":511.067,"end":511.247,"text":"那我們的"},{"start":539.855,"end":542.696,"text":"各位委員報告有沒有這個影像當然是其中讓我們了解案情當中的一環但是事證的還原其實不是光靠這個影像事證的還原有種種的跡證從船舶的跡證"},{"start":565.728,"end":567.39,"text":"主席,主席我剛才提的是"},{"start":578.764,"end":580.025,"text":"這個部分請署長來說明請署長"},{"start":601.685,"end":626.355,"text":"各位委員報告我想這一次整個有關陸船翻覆的原因依照我個人我們同仁第一時間在做這個現場的調查跟整個政務的一個現象來看我想主要有三個原因我想在這邊跟您做個報告第一個它是一個高速右轉這是第一個原因那麼這個高速右轉我們從這一個艇"},{"start":628.456,"end":654.02,"text":"他的車就是我們的家車就是他的速度他是推到底他的電門開關是開啟另外他的舵就是方向盤是打到右門舵這個右門舵就是向右轉到底就是如同我們這張這個圖片那這樣子的一個狀況他是高速右轉第二個主要的原因是他的配重"},{"start":655.282,"end":656.763,"text":"所以理論上這個船,兩個弦外機在後端,它平常就是這樣翹起來的"},{"start":684.329,"end":709.983,"text":"另外他還有一個這個收網機在他的右側所以正常上他的配重就不正常所以他正常狀況下他有加了這樣子的配重然後他會右傾他又在高速又右傾第三個最重要的原因第三個最後一個原因第三個最重要的原因我時間剩下55秒不好意思我只是要講掉一件事情而已如果我們通過這個資料緊進一塊風電他不會超船那個船長"},{"start":713.445,"end":717.753,"text":"他只開了不到14船這一艘船他1月份才買來的所以他沒有執照"},{"start":722.253,"end":746.622,"text":"部長你剛才講到是整個船的整個機械原理架構我只是要問說你的軌道能不能夠證明這樣事情而已我上面都在調查當中也希望會不會趕快把資料給我們委員會在那邊說一定要我們也希望讓國軍弟兄我們的海巡的弟兄執行的時候除了能夠確保執行的安全以外也能夠環境自由進來"},{"start":747.862,"end":768.937,"text":"我們絕對支持海巡弟兄依法行政我們絕對支持但是其實是需要一個真相也包括今天大家對我們弟兄的質詢的質疑是最後要提醒你阿主委海巡署他是署內正部所以在我們內政委員會這邊的質詢他不是軍隊他是海上警察"},{"start":769.417,"end":769.537,"text":"謝謝建賓委員"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}