{"error":false,"id":["149315"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149315,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149315","日期":"2024-03-05","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"院會-11-1-3","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期第3次會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":3,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"院會","標題":"立法院第11屆第1會期第3次會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-05T11:06:45+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-05T11:37:28+08:00","影片長度":"00:30:43","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d6f3e02e0bf46d5eeeb7b287fdc05857886681d5001d2e43f8ba9b0039caa7a654e5931e65f07d6f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw","委員發言時間":"11:06:45 - 11:37:28","會議時間":"2024-03-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第3次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n 二、3月1日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n 三、3月5日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","gazette":{"lineno":360,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（11時6分）韓院長，還有陳院長及各部會的首長。有請陳院長。"],["主席：請陳院長備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：鄭委員早，恭喜你連任。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：院長好，辛苦了。陳院長上任之後，第三次來質詢陳院長，我再次的以聖經彌迦書第6章第8節「行公義、好憐憫、存謙卑的心、與你的神同行」來勉勵陳院長以及所有各部會的首長。"],["陳院長建仁：謝謝。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我們看原住民學生就讀公私立專科以上學校，學雜費減免應該要調高，這個上次我也質詢了。近5年來大專院校學生的粗在學歷，原漢粗在學歷的差距，從107學年度差距31.9%，108學年度差距31.5%，109學年度差距31.4%，但是到了110學年度，差距增加了，差距是32.2%到32.4%，不斷地增加。這裡面大概有二個原因，第一個是升學保障的外加名額是不是要檢討，這是一個；第二個就是原住民的學生，也就是經濟的因素。","原住民族教育法特別規定原住民學生就讀專科以上學校者，應減免其學雜費，這個已經實施很多年了，去年行政院宣布減免私立大專學雜費3.5萬，但是這個部分因為原住民學生的減免本來就比這個低了，就是所要繳的費用就已經比這個低了，所以原住民學生在這個政策裡面毫無受益，都沒有受益到。本席也召開過協調會，因為從107年1月11號的減免數額，到現在已經超過6年都沒有調整。在去年10月31號，本席質詢陳院長，陳院長答復：我們請教育部研議。研議之後，教育部10月31號答復，也未免太快了，部長以後不用那麼快答復，好好地研議、籌編預算，我們要籌編預算，這個部分等於目前都還沒有一個動靜。所以本席是希望陳院長能夠督導教育部，當然要編列預算，這個時候是籌編預算的時刻，籌編114年度的預算，所以我不會苛責教育部，因為本來我質詢的時候，預算早就編好了，所以請行政院督導，當然這個部分希望主計總處能夠支持，調高原住民就讀私立大專校學生學雜費減免的數額。另外有關升學保障辦法，這個升學保障辦法外加的名額是96年就開始了，民國96年就開始外加2%。本席後來質詢，那時候是葉俊榮部長，同意專案調高部分的科系外加5%，我的建議已經實施這麼多年了，然後我們原漢的落差是越來越大，除了經費預算的問題，也就是經濟的問題，另外就是這個政策也該檢討，全部都改為外加5%。院長，可以嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：這個部分，我想可能需要請教育部這邊來考慮看看這個可行性是怎麼樣，這需要有公平性的考量。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：在部長還沒有說明之前，我來說。第一個，大家都知道少子女化，現在都少子女化，很多大學都招不滿學生，所以我們是外加，不會排擠到一般學生的升學，這個部分是可以考量的。部長，好不好？"],["潘部長文忠：謝謝委員。我跟委員報告，因為委員在委員會也一直關心這個議題，我也跟委員報告，因為現在教育部跟原民會會針對原民在相關領域人才的養成，2%是一個最基礎的，事實上，如果有一些科系招生已經超過報名，等於提供的名額還不夠的部分，其實它本來可以再酌增到5%的空間，目前幾個大學的系所只要有這種反映，都會這樣做，但是是不是全面把它從2%增加到5%，我比較會務實的說，如果相關的領域，除了我們有極少數是比較限制型的，像醫學等等，這個再擴大，可能會有一些討論，但是如果一般屬於原住民族人才養成有需要的，我想教育部跟原民會都會請大學積極的來拓展，所以我想是不是以這樣的方式來因應，目前如果還不足的部分，我們來請大學全力協助這方面提升外加的名額。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：部長還是要去盤點整個為什麼……"],["潘部長文忠：這個我們每一年都會去檢討，鄭委員一直在關注這個議題。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：不是每年都檢討的問題，現在是要特別檢討，為什麼呢？因為這個政策專案調高5%實施這幾年，看起來沒有什麼效果，因為我們原漢落差的粗在學率反而拉大，所以這個部分好好檢討，好不好？"],["潘部長文忠：好，委員，這個一定會檢討。我剛才跟委員報告，因為現在看到的現象是學校開出的外加名額，比如提高後發現學生報名的人數不達這個名額，像這個部分，當然我們就維持，不必調整，但是如果發現很踴躍的科系，這方面我們就會積極檢討。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：部長，把詳細的資料做成書面，提供給本席，好不好？"],["潘部長文忠：好，可以。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：部長請回座。接下來就是都會區原住民人口現在已經高達49.57%，等於二分之一了。"],["陳院長建仁：二分之一。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：院長，如果加上沒有設戶籍而在都會區就學、就業的，絕對是超過70%。所以原住民的住宅會跟教育有關係，我一直是從教育的立場去看原住民族的住宅，我要特別跟院長講，我在當原民會副主委的時候，提出租屋補助，最先開始提出租屋補助的是我在當原民會副主委時提出來的，當時的經建會副主委，即張景森政務委員在我提出來的時候很訝異，經建會很訝異，怎麼會有租屋補助這樣的一個想法。經過詳細說明，我是從教育來說明的，他接受了。實施幾年之後，內政部認為不錯，所以擴大到不是只有原住民，租屋補助是這樣來的。","原住民的住宅政策在原基法規定得很清楚，基本法第二十八條針對都會區原住民的安居應該要保障跟協助；住宅法第二條第四項規定，目的事業主管機關應視原住民族教育及語言文化等傳承發展需要，要興建專供原住民承租之社會住宅，這個法從105年12月23號修正到現在。這個錢的部分我在106年3月27號就質詢過內政部，同意用住宅基金，修法到現在7年2個月了，到目前沒有專供原住民居住的社會住宅計畫在執行。因為原民會沒有這方面的專業人力，既然內政部有住都中心，部長，請內政部的住都中心協助原民會，會同地方政府去推動這個專供原住民居住的社會住宅。部長，可以協助嗎？"],["林部長右昌：好，謝謝。我想這部分的中央目的事業主管機關還是原民會……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我知道。"],["林部長右昌：還是必須要以原民會為主，我們內政部如有必要的話會來給予技術的協助，我想這一部分是沒有問題的。第二是鄭委員剛剛有提到，原住民族的社會住宅，目前在包括臺中沙鹿，或者新北市的樹林，以及桃園的部分其實已經有三處了，大概有541戶，所以這個是可以跟地方政府，還有包括中央目的事業主管機關，我們原民會這邊大家一起來合作的。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：部長，你把現在的進度提供書面給我。"],["林部長右昌：好的。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，請部長回座。原住民長者政策均應降為55歲，本席在第9屆第8會期質詢蘇前院長，蘇前院長答復說：「基於敬老以及原住民餘命比較短，所以有降低，那就一個標準，不必雙重標準，我同意……我對於鄭委員所指教的這個，在這種原則上我是同意的。」這是108年10月8號的答復。","我上次112年3月7號在這裡也質詢了陳院長，陳院長答復「我們請政務委員來協調各部會」。林萬億政務委員在112年4月2號研商結論，這是原民會答復的公文，「倘將原住民族老人之定義降為55歲，恐違反國際趨勢。」我看到這個公文，非常地訝異。","國民年金法很早就規定，年滿55歲的原住民；公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第十七條第六項，也就是106年8月9號公布施行的，「具原住民身分者，降為五十五歲」；公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第十八條第四項，這是106年8月9號公布施行的，「具原住民身分者，降為五十五歲」；衛福部的長照2.0計畫，105到116納入55歲以上的原住民；中低收入戶的裝置假牙計畫也是一樣55歲；臺北市，不只是臺北市，臺北、新北、桃園、臺中、臺南、高雄、宜蘭、新竹、苗栗、彰化，原住民都是55歲可使用敬老卡。109年2月24日鄭文燦副院長當時是桃園市市長，宣布年滿55歲的原住民可以領取敬老卡。陳時中部長是前任部長，疫情期間宣布原住民55歲納入優先接種疫苗對象。臺南市現在的黃偉哲市長去年7月開辦老人健保補助，納入55歲以上原住民長者。新北市也是一樣，在去年也是健保補助納入55歲原住民。所以將原住民族長者政策降為55歲沒有違反國際趨勢，我們是領先，領先國際保障原住民族。院長，所以我不知道要怎麼質詢這個部分？"],["陳院長建仁：我覺得這裡面分兩件事情，一個國際趨勢的意思就是國際上對於老年人的定義就是65歲，但是就原住民權益的保障或者是在加強原住民照顧的這個部分，政府的不同部會確確實實是有把照顧長者的年齡降為55歲，我想實質上更重要的是實質照顧的部分，所以我們的很多辦法也都是以55歲做為照顧的依據，這只是一個名稱上的問題，我想各部會都會努力地和原民會一起努力提供我們的長者更好的社會照顧，還有社會福利的部分。這個整個來調整是從法律上來調整，還是從計畫方案上來調整，是兩個不同的作法，我們目前是在計畫上來調整，你可以看得到很多的計畫都是55歲，原民會也是有這樣的主張。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：院長，我們先從交通好了，為什麼呢？我剛剛講了，現在五都都有敬老卡……"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：拿了敬老卡，他們坐公車，尤其是臺北市、新北市，還有高雄，都有捷運，坐了捷運，然後要轉火車，轉火車的區間車就不能用，對不對？或者是坐高鐵，坐高鐵到桃園或到哪裡也不能用敬老卡。既然院長剛才的答復是這樣，是不是就從交通開始？第一個、火車，第二個、高鐵，這二個，因為現在有捷運、有公車的都做了，是不是？都做了，所以這個部分也不用擔心了，交通部一直擔心會不會影響到經費，事實上，按照大眾捷運法的規定，部長，你要聽，這個費用是政府要付的，可以付，何況火車也不是民間的，對不對？高鐵是民間的，但是一樣按照大眾捷運法，可以由政府來貼給他，另外就是飛機，飛機少啦！我們就先從火車好了，坐高鐵的也少啦！就先從火車開始，可以嗎？"],["王部長國材：跟委員報告，您剛才談到55歲的部分，那個法源有個別的法源，我們現在國內所謂陸海空的半價是來自於老人福利法第二十五條。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我知道。"],["王部長國材：老人福利法就規定65歲在陸海空裡面半價。這個意思是說，如果要修的話，一定要從老人福利法這個源頭，要不然你講鐵路、高鐵，我還有捷運、公車，所以我們在過去也都有跟委員報告，這個半價是在老人福利法下面的一個規定，像……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：部長，你這樣的回答就形同在說剛才我念的這些部會，包括這些直轄市政府、縣市政府都違反了老人福利法。"],["王部長國材：不是，半價在……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：這樣的說法會有這樣一個很大的疑慮，所以不要再用老人福利法作為理由了。"],["王部長國材：我跟委員報告，老人福利法第二十五條裡面……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：如果這樣的話，全部撤銷，宣布這些政策全部違法。"],["王部長國材：不是，因為他們不是來自於老人福利法，而我們公共運輸是來自老人福利法下面的規定。"],["陳院長建仁：不同的……"],["王部長國材：不同，目前是這樣，我跟委員報告。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：完全錯誤。院長、部長，鐵路法如果要修法，就修嘛！就像國民年金法不同於老人福利法，公教的撫卹條例也不同於福利法，所以這個部分是要不要做而已，只要願意做，因為老人福利法沒有說全部都不可以，沒有這樣寫，我是學法律的，這個條文沒有這樣寫，就是因為沒有這樣寫，所以這麼多的部會都這樣做，所以這個部分部長你回去再好好提出修法。"],["王部長國材：跟委員報告，如果修鐵路法也一樣要送立法院，同樣的，如果是55歲適用公共運輸，我還要修公路法，那個法太多了……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：沒有，那個不是問題，你現在沒有公路法。"],["王部長國材：我覺得總法源規定陸海空，你一定是在這個肉粽的前面修，你現在修，下面有一堆啊！"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：部長，你現在沒有公路局了，現在就是捷運跟公車，公車也不是你管的，好不好？公車都55歲了。部長請回座。","上次質詢陳院長的時候我特別提到，2015年8月1號蔡總統提出原住民族政策的主張，我們發現了願望；2016年上任之後，8月1號向原住民道歉，並且做了非常重要的承諾，我們看到盼望；尤其是2016年6月27號的時候行政院在立法院承諾，在12月底以前將土海法送到立法院，我們看到了希望。但是隨著幾個政策的發布，我們開始懷疑，也開始失望，更是絕望，所以當初112年3月7號本席在這裡質詢陳院長，期望陳院長給原住民族大驚奇，期望促成蔡總統承諾的原住民族政策，但是經過了1年，幾個重要的看起來已經很困難了，原住民族自治法、原住民族土海法已經沒有希望了。陳院長，如果你續任的話，我們還希望能夠有個大驚奇。","我們先看這個，還可以做的、馬上做的、可以馬上做的，但是一直沒有做的。蔡總統105年8月1號向原住民族道歉的時候也承諾，部落公法人的制度，我們已經推動上路。蔡總統為什麼會這樣說呢？因為部落公法人之法律依據為原住民族基本法第二條之一規定部落為公法人，部落的設置辦法由中央原民會訂定，由中央原民會來訂定部落公法人的設置辦法。然而到現在還沒有訂定，為什麼沒有訂定？上次我有提，我本來很期待我們的陳院長，陳院長在112年9月13日召開原基法第16次推動會，推動會裡面除了報告事項，還是報告事項，都是報告事項，沒有討論事項，這是需要檢討的地方。除了原民會之外，請負責這個業務的行政院相關部門應該要提供資訊給院長，不應該只有報告事項。原基法第三條特別規定行政院為審議、協調本法相關事務，應設置推動會。為什麼已經這麼多年了，快8年了，部落公法人還沒有辦法訂定出來？所以要去討論、去審議、去檢討，很可惜沒有結果，這個部分是一個非常大的遺憾。","我們看蔡總統另外一個很重要的承諾，今年的11月1日我們會開始劃設、公告原住民族傳統領域土地，107年6月11日原民會公告劃設烏來區泰雅族各部落、邵族原住民族土地的傳統領域。但是邵族的傳統領域很快地被行政院撤銷了，所以現在只有一個，8年來只有一個，烏來有幾個部落？四個部落，公告烏來四個部落，原住民委員會所核定的部落總共是幾個？737個，等於是七百三十七分之四，這個是微乎其微。我們看烏來從107年到現在有沒有怎麼樣，部落還是國有的，這些傳統領域還是國有的，有怎麼樣嗎？怕什麼呢？我不知道到底是什麼原因。105年8月11日蔡總統走訪都蘭部落，說要正式公告都蘭部落傳統領域，結果呢？退輔會主委不用上來，請財政部部長上來，蔡政府竟然違法將都蘭部落傳統領域出租，我們的傳統領域還要承租，所以都蘭部落鄉親反對委託經營的錯誤路線，還我傳統山林海域，還我舊部落，還我祖靈地。","這封信我給夷將主委看過好幾次，我本來希望你能夠比照，寫信給退輔會主委，可惜沒有！民國77年5月15日退輔會主委寫了這封信答復吳伯雄部長，其中提到未利用之土地撤銷撥用返還，未來還有這種沒有安置需要的要繼續返還。這對於原住民族而言就是一個承諾、是一個契約，很可惜！退輔條例規定很清楚，為了就業所需要的土地給退輔會，結果現在都是什麼？都委託經營、都出租了，都是出租。國有財產法規定用途廢止的時候、變更原定用途的時候、於原定用途外擅供收益，出租就是收益嘛，違反了國產法第三十九條，違反三個啊！","原住民的土地被撥用，現在退輔會也沒有作就業之用，結果全部都出租給民間企業、給個人，不同意返還給原住民。中華民國政府為什麼要違法？違反什麼呢？違反原住民族基本法、違反國軍退除役官兵輔導條例、違反國有財產法，還有一個剛才我講的，退輔會主委代表中華民國政府說：不用的時候，還會返還。這是一個契約，民法的規定，也違反民法。所以威權統治時期，民國77年是威權統治時期，政府依法、依國產法廢止撥用，返還原住民族土地。現在是民主憲政時期，違法營利出租原住民的土地，中華民國政府有窮到要違法出租嗎？","部長，這是你的責任，因為這是國有財產法的明定。部長，你是學法律的，部長加油！"],["莊部長翠雲：是。跟委員報告，這個部分屬於退輔會目前在管理的，它是屬於國有公用財產。至於它有沒有違反國有財產法及退輔條例的部分，把它變更為非公用，這部分我們會再進一步清理。"],["主席：跟鄭委員天財報告，因為時間關係，能不能剩下的請財政部、退輔會跟您書面報告，好嗎？"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，請部長加油，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鄭委員天財，謝謝陳院長的備詢。","接下來請高金委員素梅質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":174,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-3","speakers":["韓國瑜","林宜瑾","黃仁","林俊憲","邱若華","陳素月","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","高金素梅","林月琴","盧縣一","李昆澤","許宇甄","何欣純","羅智強","張智倫"],"page_start":87,"meetingDate":["2024-03-05"],"gazette_id":"1130501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130501_00004","1130501_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第3次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 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Kacaw臨時提案委員．鄭天財Sra Kacaw"},{"start":616.513,"end":627.221,"text":"好謝謝我想這部分的重要目的事業主管機關還是原民會那如果還是必須要以原民會為主那我們內政部如果有必要的話我們來給予"},{"start":628.243,"end":656.56,"text":"技術的一個這個協助我想這部分是沒有問題第二是鄭委員剛剛有提到原住民族的社會住宅其實目前在包括臺中的沙鹿或者新北市的樹林以及桃園的部分其實已經有三處大概有541戶所以這個是可以跟這個地方政府還有包括中央目的事業主管機關我們園民會這邊大家一起來合作"},{"start":657.239,"end":686.257,"text":"部長,你把現在的進度提供,順便讀目前的進度。好,請部長回座。原住民長者政策,均應降為55歲。本席在第9屆第8會期質詢蘇前院長。蘇前院長答覆說,基於近老以及原住民移民比較短,"},{"start":687.36,"end":710.008,"text":"所以有降低那就一個標準不必雙重標準我同意我同意我對於政務委員的指教的這個在這種原則上我是同意這是108年10月8號的一個答覆那我上次在112年3月7號在這裡也質詢了陳院長陳院長答覆我們請政務委員來協調各部會"},{"start":718.776,"end":746.934,"text":"林萬毅政務委員112年4月2日言商結論。這是人民會答覆的一個公文。躺將原住民族老人之定義降為55歲恐違反國際歧視。我看到這個公文非常的訝異。國民年金法很早就規定年滿55歲的原住民公務人員退休之前俯視法"},{"start":747.95,"end":768.834,"text":"第17條第6項,這是106年8月9日公布施行的．有原住民身份將為55歲公立學校教職員退休之前撫恤條例第18條第4項,這是106年8月9日公布施行的．原住民身份將為55歲衛福部的長照2.0計畫"},{"start":777.88,"end":799.017,"text":"105到116納入55歲以上的原住民。這個中低收入的裝置假牙的計畫也是一樣55歲。臺北市,不只是臺北市,臺北、新北、桃園、臺中、臺南、高雄、宜蘭、新竹、苗栗、彰化原住民都是55歲進勞卡。109 2月24日"},{"start":807.134,"end":834.581,"text":"鄭文燦副院長當時是桃園市市長宣布年滿55歲的原住民會有進勞卡。陳時中部長前任部長原住民55歲納入優先接種疫苗疫情期間。台南市現在的黃偉哲市長去年7月開辦老人健保補助"},{"start":835.377,"end":862.757,"text":"納入55歲以上原住民長者。新北市也是一樣在7年也是健保補助55歲原住民。所以原住民族長者政策降為55歲沒有違反國際歧視。我們是領先國際保障原住民族。所以這個部分"},{"start":863.857,"end":885.351,"text":"院長,我不知道要怎麼質詢這個部分。我覺得這裡面分兩件事情。一個國際趨勢的意思就是說國際上對於這個老年人的定義就是65歲。但是就原住民的這個權益的保障或者是在加強原住民的照顧的這個部分"},{"start":886.291,"end":907.222,"text":"政府的不同的部會確確實實是有把照顧長者的年齡降為55歲。我想實質上更重要的是實質照顧的部分。所以我們的很多的辦法也都是以55歲作為照顧的依據。所以這是一個"},{"start":908.243,"end":908.323,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":923.339,"end":925.321,"text":"院長,我們先從交通好了。為什麼呢?"},{"start":951.146,"end":979.454,"text":"這幾個新北五都啊,現在五都啊,我剛剛講了五都都有啊,進勞卡,進勞卡他們坐公車,尤其是台北市、新北市,還有高雄,都有捷運嘛,坐了捷運,捷運轉,要轉這個火車,要轉火車的七間車,就不能用,對不對?"},{"start":981.189,"end":1007.324,"text":"然後或是做高鐵,做高鐵到桃園或到哪裡,不能用,進勞卡不能用。是不是先,既然院長剛才的答覆是這樣,那是不是就從交通開始,第一個火車,第二個高鐵,這兩個。"},{"start":1010.441,"end":1036.412,"text":"因為現在整個有捷運、有公車的都做了。是不是?都做了。所以這個部分也不用擔心了。交通部一直擔心,部長來了。交通部一直擔心會不會影響到經費。事實上,按照大眾捷運法的規定,這個費用,部長你要聽。"},{"start":1039.707,"end":1066.874,"text":"按照大眾捷運法﹖這個費用是政府要付的﹖可以付﹖民間﹖而不然火車也不是民間﹖對不對﹖高鐵民間﹖但是一樣按照大眾捷運法﹖可以由政府來貼給他﹖另外就是﹖飛機﹖飛機少了﹖我們就先從火車好了﹖"},{"start":1076.921,"end":1093.675,"text":"您剛才談到那個55歲的部分,他那花園有個別的花園,但是我們現在國內的所謂入海空的這個半價,這是來自老人福利法的25條。我知道。那老人福利法他就規定65歲,然後在入海空裡面半價。"},{"start":1094.554,"end":1123.505,"text":"那這個意思是說如果要修的話一定要從老人福利法這個源頭要不然現在鐵路如果你講鐵路高鐵那我還有捷運還有公車所以我們在過去也都有跟委員報告就是我們的這個半價在是老人福利法所說下面的一個規定部長你這樣的回答就形同在說剛才我念的這些部會包括"},{"start":1124.734,"end":1152.737,"text":"這些直轄市政府、縣市政府都違反了老人福利法。這樣的說法有這樣的一個很大的餘力。所以不要再用這個老人福利法作為理由了。如果這樣的話全部撤銷了。老人福利法25條裡面。宣布這些政策全部違法。"},{"start":1154.514,"end":1157.515,"text":"完全錯誤,這個院長部長這個鐵路法如果說要修法就修嘛,鐵路法就像國民年金法不同於"},{"start":1183.142,"end":1209.687,"text":"不同於這個老人福利法公教的這些府系條例也不同於福利法所以這個部分要不要做而已只要願意做因為老人福利法沒有說全部都不可以沒有這樣寫我是寫法律的這個條文沒有這樣寫"},{"start":1210.836,"end":1224.137,"text":"就是因為沒有降血,所以這麼多的部會都這樣做。所以這個部長你回去好好再提出修法了。"},{"start":1225.58,"end":1228.082,"text":"市長,你現在沒有公路了,沒有公路幾了啦?"},{"start":1252.797,"end":1278.951,"text":"現在就是捷運跟公車,公車也不是你管的,好不好?公車都55歲了。接下來部長就請回座。上次質詢陳院長的時候,我特別提到2015年8月1日蔡總統提出原住民主政策的主張。"},{"start":1279.81,"end":1301.649,"text":"我們發現了願望。2016年上任之後8月1日向原住民組道歉並且做了非常重要的承諾我們看到了盼望尤其是行政院在立法院承諾2016年6月27日的時候承諾"},{"start":1305.75,"end":1328.62,"text":"在12月底前將《土海法》送到立法院,我們看到了希望。但是隨著幾個政策的發現,我們開始懷疑,也開始失望,更是絕望。所以當初112年3月7日,鄭熙在這裡質詢陳院長,期望陳院長"},{"start":1333.639,"end":1361.148,"text":"給原住民族大驚喜希望促成蔡總統承諾的原住民族政策但是經過了一年幾個重要的看起來已經很困難了原住民族自治法原住民族屠海法已經是沒有希望了當然陳院長如果你細認的話"},{"start":1362.742,"end":1390.698,"text":"我們還希望有個大驚奇了。好,我們先看這個。還可以做的,馬上做的。可以馬上做的,但是一直沒有做的。蔡總統8月1日,105年8月1日向原住民組道歉的時候也承諾,部落公法人的制度我們已經推動上路。蔡總統為什麼會這樣說呢?"},{"start":1392.892,"end":1409.345,"text":"是因為部落公法人是法律依據原住民族基本法第二條之一,部落為公法人。部落的設置辦法由中央人民會來定定。當然,到現在還沒有定。為什麼沒有定?本來很期待"},{"start":1423.14,"end":1450.552,"text":"上次我有提啊,本來很期待我們的陳院長。我們陳院長在112年9月13號召開了研究法第16次的推動會。推動會裡面除了報告事項還是報告事項。兩個報告,都是報告事項。都是報告事項。"},{"start":1452.13,"end":1476.205,"text":"沒有討論事項這是需要檢討的地方要請這個負責這個業務的除了人民會之外行政院的相關的部門應該提供資訊給院長說不應該只有報告事項因為研究法第三條的"},{"start":1477.034,"end":1497.78,"text":"特別規定行政院為了審議協調本法相關事務,所以設置這個推動會。為什麼固若功法人沒有辦法,已經這麼多年了,8年了,快8年了,都還沒有辦法定出來,應該去討論、去審議、去檢討,很可惜沒有檢討。"},{"start":1504.11,"end":1531.772,"text":"所以這個部分是一個非常大的遺憾。好,我們看蔡總統另外一個很重要的承諾。今年的11月1日我們會開始劃設公告原住民族傳統領域土地。107年6月11日聯名會公告了劃設烏來期泰雅族各部落少族原住民族土地的傳統領域。"},{"start":1533.851,"end":1557.317,"text":"但是少主的傳統禮儀很快的被行政院撤銷。所以現在只有一個。八年來只有一個。烏來幾個部落?四個部落。公告了烏來四個部落。總共原住民委員會所核定的部落是幾個?737。等於是737分之4。"},{"start":1564.443,"end":1591.16,"text":"七百三十七分之四所以這個是為夫其位所以這個部分我們就看未來107年到現在有沒有怎麼樣部落還是國有的這些傳統領域還是國有的有怎麼樣嗎?怕什麼呢?所以這個我不知道到底是什麼原因"},{"start":1592.93,"end":1620.257,"text":"好,105年8月11日蔡總統走訪督蘭部落,說要正式公告督蘭部落的傳統領域。結果呢?退伍會主委也不用來了,不用上來。請那個財政部部長來。蔡政府竟然違法將督蘭部落傳統領域用出租啊!我們的傳統領域!我們還要成租啊!所以這個部分是一個很..."},{"start":1624.414,"end":1652.399,"text":"杜蘭部落鄉親反對委託經營的錯誤路線,還我傳統山林海域,還我舊部落,還我祖靈地。我們看看,我本來一直很希望上次這封信給我們宜將主委看過好幾次。我本來希望你能夠比照,寫信給退伍會主委,可惜沒有。"},{"start":1654.418,"end":1682.547,"text":"民國77年5月15日退會主委寫了這封信答覆吳博雄部長說為利用之土地徹銷撥用返還啊。未來還有這種沒有安置的需要的還要繼續返還這個對於原住民組合議員就是一個承諾是一個契約啊"},{"start":1684.224,"end":1710.531,"text":"很可惜退府條例規定很清楚為了就業所需要的土地給退府費結果現在都是什麼都委託經營都出租啊都是出租國有財源法規定用途變廢紙的時候變更原定用途的時候以原定用途外裝工收益出租就是收益嘛"},{"start":1711.839,"end":1740.756,"text":"違反了國產法39條,三個,違反三個。真的是看了,原住民的土地被撥用,現在退伍費也沒有作就業之用,結果全部都出租給民間企業,給個人,不同意返還給原住民。中華民國政府"},{"start":1741.403,"end":1770.399,"text":"為什麼要違反要違法違反什麼呢?違反原住民族基本法違反國軍退族域官民輔導條例違反國有財產法還有一個剛才我講的退會主委代表中華民國政府說我不用的時候我這還要反反這是一個企業民法的規定"},{"start":1771.716,"end":1799.967,"text":"也違反民法。所以啊,威權統治時期,民國77年是威權統治時期。政府依法,依國產法,廢紙撥用,返還原住民族土地。現在是民主憲政時期,違法營利出租原住民族土地。中華民國政府有窮到要出租,違法出租嗎?所以啊,"},{"start":1802.059,"end":1821.687,"text":"部長這是你的責任因為這是國有財產法的明定請部長你是寫法律的部長加油是跟委員報告我想這個部分屬於退府會目前在管理的他是屬於國有公用財產那至於他有沒有違反國有財產法"},{"start":1828.666,"end":1837.295,"text":"跟鄭委員天財報告因為時間關係能不能剩下的請財政部退股會跟您書面報告好嗎?好謝謝鄭委員天財謝謝陳委員長的備詢謝謝接下來請高金委員"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}