{"error":false,"id":["149326"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149326,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149326","日期":"2024-03-06","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-36-3","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":3,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-06T09:08:18+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-06T09:21:27+08:00","影片長度":"00:13:09","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172fafc8ba6b67f64f413ce99dc43694a3e0f8ba9b0039caa7a67a56b3449513e4b65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"09:08:18 - 09:21:27","會議時間":"2024-03-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院人事行政總處人事長列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":132,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時8分）人事長好。今天拜讀了人事總處所提出來的業務計畫跟修法計畫，我看到其中一項感觸很深。您提到為了要強化公務人員執行職務的保障，提高意外傷亡慰問金的額度，我相信給意外傷亡的公務人員提高慰問金額度大家都贊成，但我為什麼說我很感慨？強化公務人員職務的保障，預防勝於事後的慰問，等到悲劇發生以後，再高的慰問金恐怕都沒有辦法挽回悲劇，也沒有辦法撫慰家屬的心情。","我為什麼這樣子說呢？我不知道人事長你還記不記得6年前在同一個會議室、同一個地方，那時候您還是副人事長，現在也恭喜你高升人事長了。6年前我們在這邊曾經有一段對話，我那個時候直接跟人事長說：公務人員安全及衛生防護辦法訂得很爛，沒有辦法保護我們的警消，行政院人事總處有沒有那個魄力告訴考試院要改？你還記不記得當時你怎麼跟我說的？","沒有關係，我提醒你，我說話一向有憑有據。您說：我們會按照指示，儘速協調，針對一些需要改善的條文再來加強。請問改了什麼條文？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我這裡跟委員報告，事實上我們有跟保訓會及銓敘部來溝通，事實上那個法的主管機關，我們事實上……"],["黃委員國昌：是，溝通了6年以後，改了什麼條文？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：這個部分我必須要跟委員講很抱歉。"],["黃委員國昌：你跟我抱歉沒有用啊！你還知不知道2018年4月的時候，我們為什麼在這裡有這段對話嗎？你還記不記得？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：基本上應該是發生一些消防人員的這一些意外事件。"],["黃委員國昌：我必須要說，2018年4月的時候發生了敬鵬大火，我們有6位消防弟兄罹難了，那個時候基層的消防、勇敢的打火英雄跟立法院、行政院跟我們的政府，大聲疾呼公務人員安全及衛生防護辦法要修，沒有辦法保障他們，你那個時候也是在這個委員會裡面跟我做了承諾，說你會跟保訓會協調，針對一些需要改善的條文再來加強，6年過去了，修了什麼？修了什麼？、答案是什麼都沒有修、答案是什麼都沒有修，您說跟考訓會在協調，您覺得很抱歉，最近開始跟考試院、保訓會那邊協調是什麼時候，你還記得嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：最近是因為屏東……我們這裡面會有二個時間點，一個是在110年的時候，我們有再度跟保訓會提，那……"],["黃委員國昌：保訓會不願意是不是？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：保訓會他有一些綜整的考量，因為公務人員安衛辦法主要實施的對象是一般的公務人員……"],["黃委員國昌：好，沒有關係，他有他的考量，所以沒有修嘛！最近一次是什麼時候？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：最近一次是我們在屏東大火發生以後……"],["黃委員國昌：又發生了悲劇嘛！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：那這一次我……"],["黃委員國昌：又走了4個消防弟兄嘛！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我跟委員報告，我們這一次有特別找內政部還有消防署一起來，在上一年事實上行政院副院長也召開一個會議，我們會針對……"],["黃委員國昌：行政院副院長召開會議是什麼時候？時間我記得可能都比你清楚，去年10月12號。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：12月12號。"],["黃委員國昌：然後你們提出來的書面報告是你們要修、你們要改，距離上一次的承諾6年了，上一次走了6個弟兄，過了6年什麼都沒有改，這一次又走了4個弟兄，行政院去年又說要改，你們覺得這樣的政府對得起那一些在第一線涉身犯難的打火英雄嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我這裡跟委員報告一下，在上一年12月12號副院長召開的會議，我們目前是朝在消防法裡面增加職安辦法，來確保……"],["黃委員國昌：好，你們針對消防法裡面，針對那樣子的辦法要去修正，你們所提出來這樣子的方案，基層的警消接受嗎？同意嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：報告委員，這一個方案的設計，事實上已經有多次跟消防相關的弟兄……"],["黃委員國昌：對！所以我說嘛！他們接不接受？認為夠不夠？這是我的問題啦！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我跟委員報告，因為這個部分，消防署署長他們給我們的回復……"],["黃委員國昌：你在意的是署長的意見，還是基層警消的意見？你在意的是坐在辦公室裡面吹冷氣的人的意見，還是在第一線打火英雄的意見？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：事實上我的講法跟委員一樣，我們在乎的是第一線打火英雄的意見……"],["黃委員國昌：所以過了6年都沒有改！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：署長他也有……"],["黃委員國昌：過了6年都沒有改！真的在意嗎？我今天要的，我不是在為難人事長，我知道這個要協調，但我希望你要有態度，我們跟打火弟兄站在一起，在這一條道路上應該有的改革，誰阻擋誰拖延，我們批判誰，我們這樣才對得起他們嘛！我看到那些警消的同仁，看到他們的弟兄死了，在凱達格蘭大道上面流著眼淚，我們的政府應該要有的修法步調，是一而再、再而三地拖延，我不客氣地說，這個政府對不起他們，過了6年都沒有改，又走了4名弟兄，到現在鄭文燦所提出來的方案，我直接跟人事長報告，他們對於要修這一個安全及衛生防護辦法，他們已經沒有任何期待了，他們現在所提出來直接的訴求是什麼？他們要求回歸全面適用職業安全衛生法，連你們所提出來的那個消防法裡面要去增加的，他們都看不下去了，他們的訴求人事長知道嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我跟委員報告，事實上在討論的過程中，我們本來是朝二個方向，一個是在消防法裡面去強化職安法，另外一個是澈底修改職業安全衛生法，可是當討論到職業安全衛生法的時候，消防弟兄他有其他的考量、他有其他的意見，事實上在整個過程中我們有參與，本來我們第一個方向是朝職業安全衛生法去修、去保障他們，有效的去保障……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係啦！我這樣跟人事長講好了，我跟人事長要一個承諾，找個時間跟基層消防弟兄面對面好好坐下來談，聽聽他們的心聲，他們現在發出來的聲明是他們去年本來要上凱道，結果他們非常後悔，誤信了鄭文燦，以為鄭文燦有誠意，所以取消了上凱道，沒想到取消上凱道以後，他們才發現他們被耍了，他們為什麼這麼憤怒？他們為什麼這麼憤怒？第二個部分，他們希望要組工會，行政院端出來的菜單是特種公務人員協會，他們認為沒有用，人事長你的態度呢？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：事實上這個部分我們有跟銓敘部充分的討論過了，而且跟相關的部會……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係啦！中間的那個就不用講了，你的態度是什麼？贊不贊成？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們還是建議在目前的公務人員協會法裡面直接來規範一些團體協約權，還有爭議權相關的規範。"],["黃委員國昌：我就直接幫你整理出來了啦！你們的修法版本我全部都拜讀過了，我也問過消防弟兄的意見，他們反對啊！看不下去啊！團結權門檻過高，協商權範圍太窄，沒有辦法真正行使爭議權，沒有關係啦！你們的態度是這個樣子，該推動的修法我們來推動。","最後一個問題，目前軍公教的待遇沒有法制化的基礎，很多團體包括立法院的法制局，包括監察院，都一直說調薪機制應該要法制化，這件事情人事總處有沒有任何的規劃？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：事實上法制化我們都有……"],["黃委員國昌：贊不贊成？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：法制化本來就是應該需要的，可是……"],["黃委員國昌：現在有嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：目前在執行上尚無窒礙難行的地方。"],["黃委員國昌：從你的角度來講，當然是沒有窒礙難行的地方嘛！你要從基層員工的角度去想他們滿不滿意嘛！現在沒有法源依據，連軍公教員工待遇審議委員會設置要點都沒有法源的辦法，相關的單位包括監察院要求行政院提出檢討多久了，到現在都還在拖。推動法制化這件事情，我再說一次，如果人總不做，立法院來做，在完成法制化以前，我最後只問一個關鍵的問題，不要耽誤其他委員太多的時間，現在有很多基層的公務員包括老師，他們要求軍公教員工待遇審議委員會設置要點裡面的代表應該要有基層員工，人事長你贊不贊成？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：這一點我沒有反對，可是我必須要跟委員報告一件事……"],["黃委員國昌：你沒有反對？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我沒有反對，為什麼？因為我們在……"],["黃委員國昌：請問什麼時候可以實現？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們現在是採一個變通的方式，在委員會召開之前，我們會跟教育部把相關的團體……因為委員你也知道，光教育的相關團體大概有10幾個教育團體嘛！到底是哪一個進來，還是每一個都進來，是看人數還是怎麼樣，所以我想我們沒有直接……可是我們一定會啟動一個在會前聽聽這一些教育基層公務同仁的意見，然後再把這個意見彙整到我們的公務人員待遇審議委員會裡面來討論。"],["黃委員國昌：我這樣說好了，這一個調整機制的法制化還要等多久？什麼時候裡面才可以有基層員工的代表？這是我關心的兩個問題，剛剛人事長某個程度的回答，我不知道你為什麼當了人事長還有這麼多無奈，沒有關係，今天本席跟其他委員一起提了一個臨時提案，希望人事行政總處針對這件事情必須要提出一個完整的報告出來，而且更重要的事情不是只有單純提報告，這件事情我們希望能夠儘速落實實現，來回應廣大基層的公務同仁，還有老師共同的心聲，人事長同意嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們會按照委員的要求儘速把……"],["黃委員國昌：我希望你這次跟我講會按照委員的指示來處理，不是跟6年前一樣。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：不會啦！"],["黃委員國昌：就一樣啊！我剛才不是秀給你看了嗎？6年前我們在這裡有一段對話，6年以後坐在這邊一樣沒有實現啊！我應該沒說錯吧？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：那時候做副人事長，現在做人事長。"],["黃委員國昌：所以現在權力比較大。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：現在權力比較大。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：有一些commitment我們還是會去遵循。"],["黃委員國昌：好，謝謝。"],["主席：現在先作一下宣告：今天有委員提出臨時提案，依照本會的往例，在登記質詢的本會委員發言告一個段落後處理，我們預計處理臨時提案的時間在早上11時，如果到時候有委員正在詢答，就在該位委員詢答完畢之後，馬上進行臨時提案。","接下來請陳委員俊宇進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":124,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-3","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","陳俊宇","沈發惠","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","林思銘","傅崐萁","鄭天財Sra 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這一個方案的設計事實上已經有多次跟消防相關的對 所以我說嘛 他們接不接受 認為夠不夠這個是我的問題啦"},{"start":339.811,"end":365.418,"text":"我跟委員報告因為這個部分消防署署長他們給我們的回覆你在意的是署長的意見還是基層警校的意見你在意的是坐在辦公室裡面吹冷氣的人的意見還是在第一線打火英雄的意見事實上我講法跟委員一樣我們在乎的是第一線打火英雄的意見所以過了6年都沒有改過了6年都沒有改真的在意嗎"},{"start":368.328,"end":396.954,"text":"我今天要的啦我不是在為難人事長我知道這個要協調但我希望你要有態度我們跟打火弟兄站在一起在這一條道路上應該有的改革誰阻擋誰拖延我們批判誰我們這樣還對得起他們嗎我看到那些錦囂的同仁看到他們的弟兄死了在凱達格蘭道道上面流著眼淚"},{"start":398.612,"end":422.693,"text":"我們的政府應該要有的修法的步調是一而再再而三的拖延我不客氣的說啊這個政府對不起他們過了6年都沒有改又走了4名弟兄到現在蔡文燦所提出來的方案我直接跟人事長報告啊他們對於要修這一個"},{"start":424.281,"end":447.647,"text":"安全及衛生防護辦法他們已經沒有任何期待了他們現在所提出來直接的訴求是什麼他們要求回歸全面適用職業安全衛生法連你們所提出來的那個消防法裡面要去增加的他們都看不下去了他們的訴求人事長知道嗎"},{"start":448.96,"end":466.442,"text":"我跟委員報告事實上在討論的過程中我們本來是朝兩個方向一個是在消防法裡面去強化治安法另外一個是徹底來修改職業安全衛生法可是當討論到職業安全衛生法的時候"},{"start":467.043,"end":495.354,"text":"消防弟兄他有其他的考量他有其他的意見事實上在整個過程中我們有參與本來我們第一個方向是朝職業安全衛生法去修去保障他們有效的去保障沒有關係啦我這樣跟人事長講好了我跟人事長要一個承諾找個時間跟基層消防弟兄面對面好好坐下來談聽聽他們的心聲他們現在發出來的聲明是他們去年本來要上海盜"},{"start":496.707,"end":510.494,"text":"結果他們非常後悔誤信了鄭文燦以為鄭文燦有誠意啊所以取消了上凱道沒想到取消了上凱道了以後他們才發現他們被耍啦他們為什麼這麼憤怒他們為什麼這麼憤怒第二個部分啊他們希望要組工會"},{"start":520.04,"end":540.277,"text":"行政院端出來的菜單是特種公務人員協會他們認為沒有用人事長你的態度呢事實上這個部分我們有跟情緒部有充分的討論過而且跟相關的部會沒有關係啦就中間的那個就不用講了你的態度是什麼贊不贊成"},{"start":541.926,"end":565.095,"text":"我們還是建議在目前的公務人員協會法裡面直接來規範一些團體協議權還有爭議權相關的規範我就直接幫你整理出來了啦你們的修法版本我全部都拜讀過了我也問過消防弟兄的意見啊他們反對啊看不下去啊團結前門檻過高"},{"start":570.158,"end":597.075,"text":"協商權範圍太窄沒有辦法真正行使爭議權沒有關係啦你們的態度是這個樣子該推動的修法我們來推動最後一個問題目前軍公教的待遇沒有法制化的基礎很多團體包括立法院的法治局包括監察院都一直說條新機制應該要法制化這一件事情人事總處有沒有任何的規劃"},{"start":600.087,"end":626.28,"text":"法制化本來就是應該需要的可是現在有嗎目前在執行上尚無至愛難行的地方從你的角度來講當然是沒有至愛難行的地方嘛你要從七成員工的角度講他們滿不滿意嘛現在沒有法源依據連軍公教員工待遇審議委員會設置要點都沒有法源的辦法"},{"start":626.94,"end":640.776,"text":"相關的單位包括監察院要求行政院提出檢討多久了到現在都還在拖推動法治化這件事情我再說一次如果人總不做立法院來做"},{"start":642.017,"end":659.283,"text":"在完成法制法以前我最後只問一個關鍵的問題不要耽誤其他委員太多的時間現在有很多基層的公務員包括老師他們要求軍公教員工待遇審議委員會設置要點裡面的代表應該要有基層員工人事長你贊不贊成"},{"start":661.715,"end":679.316,"text":"這一點我沒有反對可是我必須要跟委員你沒有反對我沒有反對為什麼呢因為我們在什麼時候可以實現我們現在是採一個變通的方式在委員會召開之前我們會跟交易部把相關的團體因為委員你也知道嘛"},{"start":680.237,"end":680.517,"text":"我這樣說好了啦齁"},{"start":706.252,"end":734.77,"text":"這一個調整機制的法制化還要等多久什麼時候裡面才可以有基層員工的代表這是我關心的兩個問題剛剛人事長某個程度你的回答我不知道你為什麼當了人事長還有這麼多無奈那沒有關係今天本席跟其他的委員我們一起提了一個臨時提案希望人事行政總處針對這件事情必須要提出一個完整的報告出來"},{"start":735.47,"end":747.658,"text":"而且更重要的事情不是單純只有提報告這件事情我們希望能夠儘速的落實實現來回應廣大基層的公務同仁還有老師他們共同的心聲人事長同意嗎"},{"start":754.701,"end":766.693,"text":"我想我們會按照委員的一個要求進速把我希望你這次跟我講說會按照委員的指示來處理不是跟6年前一樣就一樣啊我剛剛不是秀給你看了嗎6年前我們這裡有一段對話坐了6年以後坐在這邊一樣沒有實現啊我應該沒說錯吧"},{"start":778.55,"end":781.231,"text":"所以現在管理比較大嗎?現在權力比較大嗎?有一些承諾我們還是會去遵循"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}