{"error":false,"id":["149329"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149329,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149329","日期":"2024-03-06","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-26-3","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":3,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-06T09:20:58+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-06T09:30:21+08:00","影片長度":"00:09:23","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172fdf8216029651fd6e1e2be856f0c9cef9f8ba9b0039caa7a63b15e738d91a4af85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"09:20:58 - 09:30:21","會議時間":"2024-03-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長、外交部、勞動力發展署、衛生福利部、內政部、國家安全局就「我國開放印度移工對本國勞工就業市場之衝擊」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":251,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（9時21分）有請我們的部長，還有署長和我們的張文秀組長，麻煩3位。"],["許部長銘春：林委員好。"],["林委員月琴：好。2023年因為要引進，然後簽訂MOU就有些民間團體在反彈。就本席瞭解，社會的討論大概分幾個面向，也就是說MOU簽訂人數代表的意義跟開放移工來源國會不會衝擊到本國人的就業，和移工是否造成臺灣治安的一些隱憂。","請問部長，在去年9月之後，勞動部到底有沒有持續跟民間團體，尤其是對政策有疑慮的團體做說明？具體的說明次數跟方式，還有你的對象。"],["許部長銘春：這個我請署長……"],["林委員月琴：好。"],["許部長銘春：業務單位。"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，去年因為主要是在國發會公共政策平台有幾個民間團體，我們其實有透過那個聯繫的資訊，因為他只有留那個 email，沒有任何其他資訊，我們是透過email希望能夠取得一些諮詢的意見。不過到目前為止，我們發送的他們大概都沒有回訊，所以這個我們還要再努力。"],["林委員月琴：希望勞動部這邊要去做處理，還是要去解除，因為團體有這樣的疑慮，一定有他們的擔憂所在，而且社會大眾跟民間團體已經提出有這樣子的疑慮，因此本席今天也想借這個機會，請勞動部把疑點釐清，然後幫產業的缺工問題回到產業的脈絡去。","我們要開放引進的這個作業程序，我想請問部長這邊，這一關一關的循序漸進，部長有沒有疏漏的地方？請你一一地補充作說明，讓你有這個機會來把它講清楚。"],["許部長銘春：好。報告委員，我們現在就是MOU雙方視訊簽署了，然後226我們接到外交部的文，現在就是已經換約完畢，接下來，我們就是依照條約締結法第十二條的規定，我們要在30天內報行政院備查，之後我們會送來大院，立法院這邊，也會讓各界周知，所以這個部分，我們接下來就是在這個步驟裡的立法院查照這邊。","這整個完成以後，接下來我們就會展開雙方的工作層級會議，主要討論的這些就像委員這邊講的，行業、數額、評估資格、狀況等等這些細節。這個部分我們到時候也是會邀請目的事業主管機關，像經濟部、衛福部、農業部、內政部，他們有開放的行業，請他們一起來參與，然後瞭解他們的缺工狀況，需要怎麼樣的勞工、技術條件等等，會在這個工作層級會議來討論。這邊大概會多久，我目前還不曉得，因為可能還要看後續大家的討論是不是順利，像日本他們去年簽了，光工作層級會議就開了一年，所以我也不曉得我們這邊的狀況，或許大家如果順利的話就會很快。","然後接下來就是，這個討論以後，我們就會決定開放的行業、人數，還有招募、訓練等等，整個籌備工作都完成以後，我們才會正式依法公告印度是我們新增的移工來源國。"],["林委員月琴：所以部長，看起來我這邊整理的事實上是沒有缺漏的嘛！"],["許部長銘春：對，沒有錯。"],["林委員月琴：從去年開始在媒體就一直看到說要引進10萬名印度移工這樣的新聞標題之後讓民眾是感到恐慌的，所以本席認為應該要及早說明清楚，你不論MOU上臺印雙方約定的人數，那是一個總量的概念嘛！對不對？實際上入境的人數還是要看雇主他逐案地提出申請，政府許可之後才可以引進，政府是否許可還要看我們的外勞警戒指標上的一些變化，變好就放寬許可，變壞就緊縮許可嘛！可惜這個指標，總體和產業、社福這三大項裡邊，從試辦之後一直沒有讓國人能充分瞭解才會有這樣的隱憂在，所以包括這指標怎麼去判斷這19項，而且如何依據它變化做調整，直到現在這個重要的訊息，我覺得社會大眾不太瞭解，我想相關的人員也不是這麼瞭解，請問一下，外勞警戒指標的資訊非常不透明，所以就會讓大家帶風向的人帶風向，使得我們的民眾更大的憂慮，所以會後兩週內是不是可以公布外勞警戒指標完整說明，而且特別是指標跟許可寬鬆、緊縮之間的關係，讓社會大眾知情，可以的話你是用什麼方式來讓大家知道？"],["許部長銘春：好，謝謝委員。其實像我們都會定期開政策小組會議，這是勞資政學各方代表，開會完我們其實都會在網站公開我們相關的會議資訊，不過委員剛剛有這樣子講，我才想說因為大家現在對於移工如果說還需要警戒指標各方面的進一步資訊，我覺得我們有這個義務跟責任讓大家知道，所以我後續會用多元的管道讓大家知道，不是只放在網站而已。"],["林委員月琴：好，未來臺印勞務合作案是不是也是在這個制度裡邊同樣去運作，來增加移工來源，不改變原有的許可規則？"],["許部長銘春：其實這個警戒指標是在決定它的人數、量，新增移工來源國只是多一個選擇給雇主，比較沒有在這裡面，不是這邊討論的重點，我們就是人數的部分因為要考慮各層面，不要去影響國人就業等等，但是新增移工來源國是讓雇主多一個選擇，然後降低我們過度依賴現有移工來源國的風險。"],["林委員月琴：事實上大家真的很擔心的就是會不會衝擊到我們國人優先就業，所以想問傳統對於移工開放行業的標準在低技術性的勞工工作，可是隨著國內缺工，想問的是你現在這個法規的修正所影響的是移工名額上的增加，還是一樣針對同樣是低技術性的勞工工作這個原則做放寬？"],["許部長銘春：基本上因為我們其實就是針對藍領的移工，藍領的移工才有開放，目前就是像製造業、3K產業，像這些3K產業有缺工的話，經濟部會提案我們再來審，就會經過政策小組來評估才會開放。"],["林委員月琴：要摒除我們的偏見歧視，現在歧視有2個，一個是犯罪這一塊，對於行蹤不明移工，如果看數據還是維持在八萬多，如果剛剛部長報告說你112年有更高，那在處理，因為人數更多……"],["許部長銘春：已經逐步在降了。"],["林委員月琴：所以是不是能夠針對這個也讓大家知道犯罪率低，比較公開清楚說明？的確看國人的犯罪率是每萬人114.12，4國過去移工在臺灣事實上是每萬人是59.46，可是我們國人到底瞭不瞭解這種狀況？並沒有。另外一個就是對於所謂的過去在1992年就業法要引進移工的時候，國人就一直對於外來族群都有一個比較性化的解釋，像女性會對身體、性，男性是暴力、性交易、偷竊這些東西，所以這些要不要去做澄清，否則的話過去也曾經面對過這個問題，這次因為要引進印度的時候有更擴大，所以煩請勞動部能夠針對這些做說明，以上，謝謝。"],["許部長銘春：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，我們謝謝林月琴委員進行的質詢。","接下來我們請陳昭姿委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":214,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-3","speakers":["王育敏","蘇清泉","林月琴","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","涂權吉","邱鎮軍","王正旭","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","盧縣一","楊曜","劉建國","林淑芬","謝衣鳯","李彥秀","楊瓊瓔","吳思瑤","洪申翰","游顥","洪孟楷","蔡易餘","羅智強","陳瑩","王鴻薇","陳冠廷"],"page_start":125,"meetingDate":["2024-03-06"],"gazette_id":"1130701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長、外交部、勞動力發展署、衛生福利部、內政部、國家安全局就「我國開放印度\n移工對本國勞工就業市場之衝擊」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130701_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.83971875,"end":13.379093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.05409375,"end":15.218468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.30221875,"end":19.90971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.43284375,"end":20.70284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.31034375,"end":21.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.28909375,"end":29.190968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.511593750000003,"end":37.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.15159375,"end":43.315343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.46721875,"end":47.06159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.36534375,"end":50.352218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.53784375,"end":53.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":53.845343750000005,"end":53.929718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.62159375,"end":58.469093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.110343750000006,"end":59.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":59.14409375,"end":59.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.17784375,"end":59.414093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.03846875000001,"end":61.30409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":61.30409375000001,"end":61.962218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.45159375,"end":82.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.80284375000001,"end":84.28784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.55784375,"end":94.44659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.19471875,"end":86.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.88534375,"end":100.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.63971875,"end":103.87971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.26784375000001,"end":107.45721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.87909375000001,"end":110.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.15284375,"end":111.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.38471875,"end":113.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.86534375000001,"end":119.47221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.75909375,"end":125.41221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.88471875,"end":128.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.44159375000001,"end":126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像在2023年因為要引進然後簽訂MOU就有些民間團體有反彈那所以本席瞭解社會的討論大概分幾個面向也就是說MOU簽訂人數代表的意義跟開放移工來源國"},{"start":38.097,"end":38.297,"text":"這個我請署長 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