{"error":false,"id":["149335"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149335,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149335","日期":"2024-03-06","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-26-3","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":3,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-06T09:30:24+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-06T09:40:09+08:00","影片長度":"00:09:45","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172f7b9381d323923d671e2be856f0c9cef9f8ba9b0039caa7a6dc5543f29fdbc7c55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳昭姿","委員發言時間":"09:30:24 - 09:40:09","會議時間":"2024-03-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長、外交部、勞動力發展署、衛生福利部、內政部、國家安全局就「我國開放印度移工對本國勞工就業市場之衝擊」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":278,"blocks":[["陳委員昭姿：（9時30分）好，有請部長。"],["主席：好，請部長。"],["許部長銘春：陳委員好。"],["陳委員昭姿：對於開放印度籍移工的議題，去年在選前有引起滿大的爭議，甚至有公民團體他們舉辦了遊行，部長您記得您當時做了什麼回應嗎？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，我那時候做兩個回應啦，第一個，因為那時候是說我們已經簽署，那我說我們還沒有簽，我們在正在洽簽啦！第二個，他說要引進10萬名印度移工，我們說絕對沒有要引進10萬名移工的這件事情。"],["陳委員昭姿：因為當時您是說引進印度移工是假訊息，但是現在你們……"],["許部長銘春：我說10萬名印度移工這個是假訊息。"],["陳委員昭姿：那你能確定、確保，在臺灣有七、八十萬移工，現在增加了一個來源國，你能確保永遠不會增加到10萬名移工嗎？這個能確保嗎？我覺得是有點在文字上的一個部分否定的作法。"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，當下這是很重要，因為這個印象讓國人非常深刻，因為他就講說我要引進10萬名印度移工，那這個部分不是……"],["陳委員昭姿：瞭解，部長您是針對那個10萬……"],["許部長銘春：對，我是針對10萬。"],["陳委員昭姿：但是我想大家看的是整體的。"],["許部長銘春：委員看一下，如果那時候有注意，我們全部的發言都很清楚，印度移工要引進，這個我們沒有否認……"],["陳委員昭姿：是，部長，我瞭解。"],["許部長銘春：第二個，我們是在談洽簽，人數還沒有決定。"],["陳委員昭姿：但是人數還是一個未知嘛！未知就不見得說不是超過10萬或是超過10萬。"],["許部長銘春：但是不可能一下子進10萬，沒有這個規劃。"],["陳委員昭姿：那我就請教部長，既然現在MOU已經簽署了，今天的報告也提到已經換文完成了，那我想請教哪些項目或是人數，什麼時候會讓我們瞭解這些內容？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，我們開放的行業跟人數會在後續的……"],["陳委員昭姿：還在研議嗎？"],["許部長銘春：不是，後續我們要跟印度開工作層級的會議，那個就會實體討論。"],["陳委員昭姿：我想我們國內自己有備案嘛！我想請問房務在不在開放的項目裡？"],["許部長銘春：目前沒有。"],["陳委員昭姿：沒有的話那為什麼王國材部長去年10月說已有初步方案將跟勞動部討論，旅宿業將開放外籍移工。"],["許部長銘春：沒有。"],["陳委員昭姿：交通部長也這樣子說了。"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，我們現在國內的服務……"],["陳委員昭姿：但是沒有排除對不對？沒有排除這件事。"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，這是2個命題，第一個，服務業目前還不是我們移工的開放行業，但是目前國內的旅宿業者有要爭取移工開放……"],["陳委員昭姿：他們在爭取，好，瞭解。"],["許部長銘春：但是我們目前還沒有定案，還在討論當中。"],["陳委員昭姿：因為部長我想要請你瞭解飯店從業人員失業是非常地嚴重，飯店業者收費還滿高的，住宿費，就是說如果它不願意提高待遇，優先聘僱本勞，當然這個會引起飯店從業人員的擔憂嘛！"],["許部長銘春：是啊！但是我跟委員報告，現在印度新增來源國，我沒有說因為新增印度我就開放服務，這個沒有。"],["陳委員昭姿：瞭解，謝謝部長，現在你還沒有規劃房務的部分。"],["許部長銘春：沒有。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，謝謝。然後我想跟部長談移工的直聘制跟仲介制，請問部長鼓勵雇主不需要透過仲介直接聘僱移工是不是勞動部的既有政策、既定政策？"],["許部長銘春：是，我們其實就是鼓勵，我們有一個直聘的機制可以讓他們選擇。"],["陳委員昭姿：在民國97年就成立直聘中心，那為什麼直聘的比例，我們現在有的數字是直直落，曾經到10%，現在不到1%，如果直聘是一個我們的既定政策，為什麼……"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，比率降低是因為以前移工3年到期要出國。"],["陳委員昭姿：我知道你們是以第五十二條修正……"],["許部長銘春：對，修正以後因為不用……"],["陳委員昭姿：關聯性這麼大嗎？"],["許部長銘春：有啊！因為他要回去再進來……"],["陳委員昭姿：你們認為關聯性就在這個修法的地方？"],["許部長銘春：修法第一個。"],["陳委員昭姿：在2018年，我知道因為這個關係，總共8個直聘中心你們就裁撤了7個，只剩下臺北市一個據點，但是你看2023年（去年）又說洽這個業務的民眾變多，又要更大的空間，我想瞭解到底直聘的部分是需求增加還是在下降？"],["許部長銘春：需求有增加，但是因為大家都透過網路申請，實體申請比較少，所以才會……"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，大家都透過網路申請嗎？但以客戶來說，很多家庭都是中年以上、中老年人，他們對於使用電腦、操作讀卡機，你確定……"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，他們大部分都委託仲介。"],["陳委員昭姿：是，我就回到這個制度來跟你討論。"],["許部長銘春：仲介的話，他們就是會用網路。"],["陳委員昭姿：不好意思，現在我可不可以請教在場的官員，家裡有聘僱移工的可以麻煩舉一下手嗎？都沒有嗎？家裡聘僱移工的，長輩都沒有需求嗎？真的都沒有嗎？好，我還是要聚焦在直聘跟仲介的部分。部長，您知道直聘的程序有多麼繁複、多麼惹民怨嗎？包括巴氏量表也不是看一次病、看一個科別就有了，它至少超過10個步驟、需要去7處地方出出入入，所以這個直聘程序很繁瑣，如果是既定政策，事實上是變相的反直聘，而且是在圖利仲介，我們看到的這樣子。"],["許部長銘春：沒有、沒有，絕對沒有這回事。"],["陳委員昭姿：而且直聘中心目前的角色只有收件跟送件，你覺得這樣合理嗎？"],["許部長銘春：不止耶！報告委員，細節的部分我請署長跟你說明。"],["陳委員昭姿：你看這個、你看這個。"],["許部長銘春：我們的服務不只有收件、送件，沒有！不是這樣，這個有些時候……"],["陳委員昭姿：所以很多人放棄直聘，直聘可以省錢啊！為什麼很多人還放棄呢？因為這就是阻礙，直聘的程序非常繁瑣，包括我們家也經歷長輩的這個需求，要直聘是非常地繁瑣，可以減少……"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，這個部分我們會儘量讓程序簡化、會檢討。"],["陳委員昭姿：好。"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，你這邊所列的，我都會請業務單位一一去檢視。"],["陳委員昭姿：既然是既定政策，我們可不可能最好的狀況就是一站式服務？讓相關的業務人員進駐直聘中心，方便民眾一次把它做完，這是未來方向，我想如果直聘是內部的既定政策……"],["許部長銘春：是，我們……"],["陳委員昭姿：移工直聘到目前為止，我知道泰國跟菲律賓做得比較順利，但是印尼跟越南的成效很差，根據直聘中心陳昌邦主任的說法，都是對方的問題，印尼政府說家庭監護工是單獨進入家庭，所以需要管理；越南的說法是勞工本身習慣付仲介費用來辦理，部長，這個說法你同意嗎？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，韓國是這樣，他們一開始的時候就採直聘制度，所以它當初在來源國……"],["陳委員昭姿：對，它是國家對國家，我也正要說韓國行，為什麼我們不行？"],["許部長銘春：他們一開始就這樣，但我們那時候不是。再來是你剛剛講的，以印尼來講，它是法律規定他們的家庭看護工不能透過直聘。"],["陳委員昭姿：但是印尼跟韓國可以啊！"],["許部長銘春：廠工可以。"],["陳委員昭姿：印尼跟韓國之間也是透過直接聘僱的制度……"],["許部長銘春：不是！委員，製造業的廠工可以，但家庭看護工在印尼不能直聘，那是它的法令規定，我們也希望能用直聘……"],["陳委員昭姿：但是印尼移工到韓國，他們是政府直聘制度，而且移工還需要接受韓語能力考試，等於很多的主動權是在政府這一邊。越南的話，他們甚至有勞務協議超過30年，而且也是國跟國直聘的方式，所以部長覺得這樣直聘的參考可不可行？我們可以借鏡其他國家的經驗。"],["許部長銘春：我們都有參考，而且跟委員報告，我們每年的雙邊會議都期待能夠……"],["陳委員昭姿：好，謝謝。為什麼我會談這件事？"],["許部長銘春：因為是來源國比較消極，委員，我們真的每次……"],["陳委員昭姿：我為什麼會提這件事？有很多移工團體在倡議國對國的直聘，因為他來之前要所謂的介紹費、人頭費大概5到20萬，來臺灣之後仲介公司收6萬，另外取消滿3年出國的規定之後，部長知不知道裡面有所謂的買工費？違法的買工費2到9萬。"],["許部長銘春：這不行啊！"],["陳委員昭姿：就是抓不勝抓，勞動部的裁罰金額跟不法收益其實是九牛一毛，就算被撤照還是再找其他人開，所以我的意思是如果能減少仲介的層層剝削。今天這個是新的來源國、全新的來源國，我們是不是可以藉此來試辦政府對政府、國對國的一個直聘制度？因為可以從這裡開始。"],["許部長銘春：是，我們……"],["陳委員昭姿：政府來當仲介的話，移工減少剝削，雇主也安心啊！因為是政府來做這件事，部長覺得這件事可不可行、可不可以參考？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，我們現在準備跟印度來做後續的工作承接，裡面就會包含這個。"],["陳委員昭姿：那我們來做吧！韓國都可以做了，跟某些國做了30年。"],["許部長銘春：我的意思是剛開始談，如果我們要採這個制度會比較好談，一旦不是的話，後面就會比較困難。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長同意今天我們對印度……"],["許部長銘春：我們在後面的工作……"],["陳委員昭姿：開放印度移工可以考慮直聘？既然是既定政策。"],["許部長銘春：辦理方式會跟它討論，我們也希望能走直聘。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，謝謝部長。"],["許部長銘春：會納入討論，謝謝。"],["主席：我們謝謝陳昭姿委員的質詢。","接下來我們請陳菁徽委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":214,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-3","speakers":["王育敏","蘇清泉","林月琴","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","涂權吉","邱鎮軍","王正旭","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","盧縣一","楊曜","劉建國","林淑芬","謝衣鳯","李彥秀","楊瓊瓔","吳思瑤","洪申翰","游顥","洪孟楷","蔡易餘","羅智強","陳瑩","王鴻薇","陳冠廷"],"page_start":125,"meetingDate":["2024-03-06"],"gazette_id":"1130701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長、外交部、勞動力發展署、衛生福利部、內政部、國家安全局就「我國開放印度\n移工對本國勞工就業市場之衝擊」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130701_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.4778437500000003,"end":2.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.785343750000001,"end":6.730343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.24909375,"end":20.770343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.282843750000001,"end":9.092843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大家都透過網路申請嘛以坑務來說很多家庭他都是中年以上中長年使用他們對於要使用電腦操作要這個讀卡機他們報告委員他們大部分都委託仲介啦我就回到這個仲介的話他們就是會不好意思現在我可不可以請教在場的這個官員家裡有聘僱移工的可以麻煩舉一下手嗎"},{"start":301.377,"end":306.063,"text":"都沒有嗎?家裡有沒有聘僱這個移工?都沒有需求,長輩都沒有需求嗎?"},{"start":308.888,"end":335.417,"text":"真的都沒有嗎?我還是要聚焦在這個職聘跟仲介的部分請大家下一張部長您知道職聘的程序有多麼繁複多麼惹民怨嗎?至少經過包括80量表也不是看一次病看一次科別就有了他至少有超過這個10個步驟然後去要七處的地方處處入所以事實上這個職聘程序繁複事實上"},{"start":336.417,"end":350.497,"text":"是變相的就如果是既定政策是變相的是反職聘而且是在圖利這個仲介我們看到的是這樣子而且職聘中心目前他的角色他只有收件跟送件你覺得這樣合理嗎"},{"start":354.031,"end":355.672,"text":"報告委員：陳昭姿報告委員：陳昭姿"},{"start":380.563,"end":380.763,"text":"陳昭姿"},{"start":400.134,"end":420.944,"text":"移工的職聘目前為止我知道泰國跟菲律賓做得比較順利但是印尼跟越南的成效很差那根據這個職聘中心主任陳昌邦說都是對方的問題啦印尼政府說是家庭監護公司單獨進入家庭所以需要來管理那越南的說法是勞工本身習慣要付仲介費用來辦理部長你覺得這個說法你同意嗎"},{"start":422.024,"end":442.148,"text":"報告委員吼韓國是這樣他們一開始的時候他們就採持聘制度所以他當初在那邊他是國家對國家我也正要說韓國行為為什麼不行我們那時候不是啦吼啊所以啊再來就是說您剛剛講的像印尼來講印尼他是法律規定他們的家庭他不能透過職聘但是印尼跟韓國可以啊"},{"start":443.568,"end":466.535,"text":"就是說印尼跟韓國之間他們也是直接聘僱的委員 廠工可以 製造業的廠工可以但家庭看護工印尼是不能用職聘的那是他的法令規定我們也希望能夠用職聘但是移工到韓國去做他們是政府職聘製作中而且移工還需要接受韓語能力的考試很多的主動權是在政府這一邊"},{"start":467.775,"end":489.312,"text":"那這個越南的話他們甚至有勞務協議超過30年那而且也是國跟國這個職聘這樣的方式所以覺得部長覺得這樣職聘的這個參考可不可行我們可以借盡其他國家的經驗我們有都參考而且跟委員報告我們每年的就是說我們雙邊的會議我們都期待能夠因為是來源國比較消極啦我為什麼會期待這件事因為你知道移工"},{"start":495.897,"end":499.879,"text":"有很多移工團體他倡議這個國對國的這個職聘因為他之前來之前這個要所謂的介紹費人頭費大概5到20萬來台灣之後這個仲介公司到6萬另外這個所謂的取消滿3年出國的規定之後部長資報裡面有所謂的買工費違法的買工費2到9萬"},{"start":514.424,"end":514.544,"text":"陳昭姿議員"},{"start":530.771,"end":548.117,"text":"今天就是說這個是新的來源國全新的來源國那我們是不是可以藉此來釋放政府對政府國對國的一個執聘制度因為可以從這裡開始那將政府來當仲介的話移工減少剝削僱主也安心啊因為是政府來做這件事啊"},{"start":548.897,"end":564.871,"text":"部長覺得這件事可不可行可不可以去參考報告委員我們現在要準備跟印度來後續的工作成績裡面就會包含這個那我們來做吧韓國都可以做了我覺得做了30年我意思是說因為剛開始談如果我們要採這個制度會比較好談"},{"start":565.794,"end":565.974,"text":"陳昭姿委員的質詢"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}