{"error":false,"id":["149348"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149348,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149348","日期":"2024-03-06","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-36-3","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":3,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-06T10:08:53+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-06T10:19:24+08:00","影片長度":"00:10:31","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172fedeba7d97ab7d1bb3ce99dc43694a3e0f8ba9b0039caa7a66e2ee15e05c91bec5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"10:08:53 - 10:19:24","會議時間":"2024-03-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院人事行政總處人事長列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":351,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（10時8分）主席，一個權宜事項，今天天氣比較冷，是不是可以請會場幹事把空調溫度稍微控制一下？"],["主席：麻煩處理一下空調。"],["鍾委員佳濱：還有也提醒我們總召，我在其他會議室有看到有空品的數字，未來我們兩個可以請秘書處加裝空品的監視。"],["主席：是，好的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝主席。在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長、官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者、女士、先生。人事長，你有覺得今天比較冷嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：有啊！"],["鍾委員佳濱：我是說你的人氣比較冷。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：不，坐在這裡會比較冷。"],["鍾委員佳濱：後面人氣比較冷，沒什麼媒體太關心人總的業務，不過我們委員還是很熱情的。請教一下人事長，我看到你過去的資歷，你的專長是電算機應用，你認為這個資管的專長對於 HR，也就是人力資源管理有幫助嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：本來沒有注意到它很有幫助，後來發現幫助非常大。"],["鍾委員佳濱：怎麼具體來講？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：為什麼我會有這樣強烈的感覺，就是因為在少子化的過程裡面，未來會進到……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你這樣講太長了，講到少子化，我就要講30年了，我直接問你，你認為運用科技能不能增進政府的效能？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：那絕對是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：絕對是的。好，那我再請教一下，AI可以用在詐騙，那AI可不可以用來辦案？譬如有一個AI的深偽仿聲詐騙，你講話5秒，他就會變成跟你的聲音一樣；又或者有新聞報導透過AI成功變臉成總公司高層，跟香港分公司騙走8億元，你有沒有看過這樣的詐騙？有嗎？有嘛！如果說歹徒用AI，那警察人員有辦法用AI來辦案、查案嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：有啊！"],["鍾委員佳濱：絕對有嘛！好，既然是這樣，我進一步來問，透過AI，有沒有辦法可以用來處理文書跟輔佐行政？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：這是更容易啊！"],["鍾委員佳濱：那你們有在做了嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那你可以舉個例子，現在我們一般政府用了大量的約聘僱人力，這些都是輔佐人力，其實他主要的工作是做什麼呢？他不是做核心業務，他在輔佐嘛！對吧？在文書業務的處理上，包括傳統的文書業務、櫃檯、查詢等，這些有沒有可能用這個方式將約聘僱人力做一個精簡？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我跟委員報告，我們在實務上有做兩件事，一個是用RPA方式，尤其像某些類似主計總處，我們也辦了很多訓練課程，RPA的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：那有沒有成效？有沒有因此這些機關降低了對約聘僱人力的依賴？有嗎？不忙的單位比較不忙了，人力就可以回收，比較新增、忙的單位，就讓它來做這個約聘僱人力，有沒有單位說用了科技之後，就不需要這麼多人？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：它的loading會降低啦！短期間是不是可以節省多少人，我覺得這要有幾年的累積以後……"],["鍾委員佳濱：幾年的累積？好，我們看一下，機關總員額法有沒有公務人員的總員額上限？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：當然有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：約聘僱人力呢？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：5%。"],["鍾委員佳濱：5%嘛！那請問一下，我們看到辦法裡面規定的是5%，目前還有多少空間？政府總員額還可以用多少約聘僱人員？還剩多少人可以用？總員額法公務人員是多少？16萬5,000？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：16萬9,000。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那約聘僱人力呢？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：約聘僱人力，是要配每一個機關的員額數……"],["鍾委員佳濱：對啊！總額嘛！全國總額，各級政府嘛！多少？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：現在總共是1萬4,425。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，一萬四千多，快1萬5，公務人員將近17萬，約聘僱人力1萬5，但大部分機關的約聘僱人力都用滿了沒有？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：沒有，沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：剩多少？剩多少可以用？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：這不是剩多少的問題，就是他的職員……"],["鍾委員佳濱：當然有啊！約聘僱人力不可能無限制成長，目前是1萬5，如果有人還要爭取這個人力，像數位部要增加，海巡要增加，大家都要增加，有的單位就要減啊！你們總額不是管制的嗎？公務人員的總額是管制的，當然約聘僱人力5%也是管制的，是不是這樣？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：他是把每一個機關……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我知道是分開計算方式，但總數上就不會超過5%，每個機關都設5%的上限，總員額只會比5%少嘛，對不對？一定是這樣，這是數學原理嘛！每一個單位都不能超過5%，全部加起來17萬……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：對啦！對啦！"],["鍾委員佳濱：對吧！好，來，我再問你，你說要時間，我告訴你，我20幾年前在地方政府服務的時候，剛好地政機關跟戶政機關大量採用電腦，所以原來傳統的謄寫人力就不需要了，你知道這段歷史嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：知道。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，所以現在你就要開始準備，當AI跟科技可以協助政府的文書處理跟輔佐人力的時候，很多原來擔任這些工作的約聘僱人力，可能就要面臨到轉換職場、轉換技能，是不是？不然就失業了嘛！人總有沒有準備？你有沒有開始準備？有沒有去統計？有沒有去調查？有沒有去瞭解？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我跟委員報告，那其實……"],["鍾委員佳濱：不是啦！你們有嗎？有去瞭解過嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：因為我們現在要先practice，我們自己去試，看效果好不好……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你就說了嘛，有些單位已經採用了這些科技，已經降低他的loading，對不對？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：當然進一步就可以減少人力，這些節省出來的人力，就挪到其他新的部門，是不是這樣？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：另外一個……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，請問一下，你認為因應業務狀況調整及時代改變，政府業務用AI來增加單位效能，有沒有可能？有嘛！好，我們進一步來看，檢察官助理現在要求增額進用，我們都很支持，對不對？法務部在2023年要求100位，2024年要求150位，因為最近犯罪手法日新月異，工作負擔沉重，所以有待行政院核定增額進用。今天有個臨提，也是要求你們要趕快提出，你支不支持檢察官助理擴增名額來支持打詐？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：跟委員報告，因為檢察官助理可以扮演的角色跟檢察事務官……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我知道，你不要說檢察事務官，檢察官助理你支持嗎？由檢察官助理來支援打詐，你支持嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我說真的，我不支持。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你不支持？嚇我一跳咧！我想說你一定支持，不支持的原因是什麼？我們來看看你不支持的原因是什麼？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我希望這些人力是補充檢察事務官。"],["鍾委員佳濱：喔！你希望是增加檢察事務官，所以你認為……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：應該是要補充檢察事務官，怎麼會補檢察官助理？"],["鍾委員佳濱：檢察官助理跟檢察事務官，一個是公務人力，一個是約聘僱人力，對不對？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：委員你說的是對的，但那不是重點……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你說事務官可以增加，助理不要增加，難道兩個人做的事情不一樣嗎？因為事務官是公務人力編制，檢助是約聘僱人力？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：不是，我跟委員報告，檢察事務官可以實施搜索、扣押、勘驗或執行拘提……"],["鍾委員佳濱：喔！他可以做的事情比較多？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：詢問告訴人、告發人，還有研擬偵查計畫……"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：檢察官助理不能做這些事。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好啦！我聽懂了。如果是公務編制人力，他可以執行公務人員的職權，但如果是檢助，他只能做一些文書處理、協助輔佐的工作，對不對？所以你認為要增加核心人力，不要再擴充那些輔佐人力，是不是這樣的意思？很好！沒有錯，目前因為案件爆增，檢察官人力沒有增加，檢察官需要助手幫他處理文書事務，這個時候如果我們把這些人力再給他，檢察官就要花更多時間處理文書事務，所以我的下一步，有沒有可能用AI來處理簡易的文書事務？就是原來檢察官覺得需要檢助做的事情，鼓勵他們用AI或科技解決，然後你擴增他們檢察事務官員額，讓檢察官有真正可以協助他執行公權力的公務人力，這是你的想法嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我跟委員報告，這分二個階段，你要他們一下子直接跳到AI來辦……"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有啦！我沒有一下子直接要做啦！現在運用AI處理簡易文書事務有二個，司法院新聞稿提到，目前酒駕跟詐騙的簡易判決，基本上就是用AI處理的，然後輸出一個判決書的簡易主文之後，法官再看內容有沒有要調整，因為是簡易判決，為什麼可以簡易判決？交通事故就簡易判決。為什麼交通事故要簡易判決、要交通裁決所？因為量很大，事情的樣態又單純，很快就處理完了。如果司法院簡易判決可以用AI來降低他們核心人力的負擔，那你認為檢察官目前在打擊犯罪，包括起訴文書，有沒有可能也可以參照這個方式？有沒有可能就好了？有沒有可能？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我跟委員報告，現在已經有少數幾個地檢署就按照這樣在做。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有嘛！那你支持嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我是一定支持的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，在擴增檢察官助理員額的同時，或者說按照你的意思，不是檢察官助理，因為檢察官助理只能做輔佐工作，他是約聘僱人力，如果是檢察事務官多一點，透過考試進用，他可以協助檢察官執行公權力，不管是增加哪一種，你是不是同時要去檢討全國目前各級機關運用約聘僱人力的分布及運用狀況？需不需要？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：需要。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那就很簡單，結論就二個，第一，請應檢討目前各級政府約聘僱人員分布及運用狀況，可以嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：沒問題。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們大概多久可以做出來？下一個題目，針對「因應業務狀況調整及時代改變，部分業務運用AI提升效能」評估可行性，3個月內提書面報告，併同第一項一起給，可以嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：OK。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","接下來請吳思瑤委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":124,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-3","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","陳俊宇","沈發惠","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","林思銘","傅崐萁","鄭天財Sra 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人事長 你有覺得今天冷嗎我是說你人氣比較冷後面人氣比較冷啦沒什麼媒體太關心我們人總的業務不過我們委員還是很熱情的來 我請教一下人事長 我看到你過去的資歷你之前都是電算機應用嘛你認為你這個資管的專長對於HR就是人力資源的管理有幫助嗎"},{"start":61.701,"end":67.707,"text":"本來沒有去注意到他很有幫助後來發現幫助非常大那怎麼具體來講"},{"start":69.164,"end":95.101,"text":"因為我覺得在整個為什麼會有這樣強烈的感覺就是因為在少子化的過程裡面未來會進到你這樣講太長講到少子化我就要想30年了我直接問你啦你認為是不是可以運用科技能不能增進政府的效能那十三十個啦我再請教一下AI可以用在詐騙那AI可不可以用來辦案你可以看一下為什麼這個畫面又跑掉了呢"},{"start":96.192,"end":115.698,"text":"對不起齁 你們畫面把它調過來 因為這樣的話那個人事長看不到齁譬如說有一個AI的深衛房仿生詐騙你講五秒啊 它就會變成跟你的聲音一樣或者說有個新聞說透過AI成功的變臉成公司的總公司高層跟香港分公司騙了8億元你有沒有看過這樣的詐騙 有嗎 有嗎齁阿你假如說拍到用AI警察綁在裡面 我就用AI來辦案查案嗎"},{"start":125.175,"end":127.457,"text":"市長好 既然是這樣 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月評副人力呢?"},{"start":214.746,"end":238.525,"text":"現在我們看到辦法裡面他在百分之五那目前還有多少空間政府總緣額還可以用多少約聘僱人員?多少?你再寫多少人可以用?我們總緣額法公務人員是多少?16萬?5千?16萬9千那約聘僱人力呢?約聘僱人力其實就配每一個機關的總額嘛你全國總額各級政府嘛"},{"start":239.232,"end":240.614,"text":"公務人員將近17萬,約聘募人力1萬5,阿大家機關都要用約聘募人力都用滿了沒有?用滿?沒有沒有"},{"start":257.483,"end":279.085,"text":"這張不是存多少,就是說他的職業當然有啊,你這個月聘不可能無限次成長嘛,你現在目前一萬五嘛,你以為說有的人要吐,數位部要增加,海巡要增加,大家都要增加,有的單位就要減嘛,你不是總額是管制的嗎?公務人員的總額是管制的,當然月聘人力百分之五的也是管制的啊,是不是這樣?"},{"start":279.721,"end":283.649,"text":"他是擺每一個機關我知道分開的計算方式但總數上就不會超過5%嘛每個機關都是5%的上限總原額只會比5%少嘛對不對"},{"start":290.663,"end":290.903,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":313.786,"end":327.534,"text":"現在你要開始準備當AI跟科技可以來協助政府的文書處理跟輔佐人力的時候很多原來擔任這些工作的業聘工人力他可能要面臨到怎樣他轉換職場轉換技能是不是不然就失業了嘛人總有沒有準備你有開始準備沒有有去統計沒有有去調查沒有有去了解沒有"},{"start":334.662,"end":340.645,"text":"有些單位已經採用了這些科技已經降級到樓頂嘛對不對那當然進一步就可以減少人力嘛那這個節省出來的人力卻挪到其他新的部門嘛是不是這樣"},{"start":359.658,"end":365.415,"text":"目前你認為因應業務的狀況調整性是在改變政府的業務用AI來增加政府的效能有沒有可能?"},{"start":366.636,"end":366.956,"text":"委員報告 因為"},{"start":396.899,"end":408.248,"text":"檢察官助理他可以扮演的角色跟檢察司務官我知你不要講檢察官 檢察官助理你有機器沒有啦檢察官多元助理來打戰你支持嗎"},{"start":409.264,"end":430.934,"text":"我 我說真的我不支持哇 你不支持嚇我一跳捏 我想說你願意支持 因為不支持什麼原因 來我們看看是不是這個原因你認為你不支持的原因是什麼我希望這些人力是補充檢查事務官你希望是做檢查事務官 所以你認為你要報 用的是報檢查事務官 不要去報檢查官助理檢查官助理跟檢查事務官 一個是公務人力 一個是閱評人力 對不對"},{"start":432.355,"end":433.257,"text":"公務人力編制"},{"start":445.062,"end":467.955,"text":"檢註是什麼?是閱兵部人力喔?不是,我跟委員報告喔檢查事務官他可以實施搜索、扣押他可以做的事情比較多請問告訴人、告發人還有研擬調查計畫檢查官處理我聽懂了因為如果是公務編制人力他可以執行公務人員的職權但是如果檢註呢他只能做一些文書處理協助輔佐工作對不對?"},{"start":469.136,"end":469.236,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":487.208,"end":506.838,"text":"就是說有沒有可能用AI來處理檢疫的文書事務就是原來檢察官他們覺得要檢註做的事情鼓勵他們用AI或科技來解決然後你擴增他的檢察事務官的緣額讓他檢察官有真正可以協助他執行公權力的公務人力你覺得這是你的想法嗎"},{"start":508.507,"end":535.043,"text":"我委員報告這個分兩個階段來的你會一群人直接跳到AI來辦嗎沒有啦,我不說一群啦,你來給我看現在運用AI來處理檢疫文書事務來你看一下兩個司法院的新聞稿他就說了目前酒駕跟詐騙他的檢疫判決他們基本上就是用AI處理的然後輸出一個判決書的檢疫的主文之後"},{"start":536.127,"end":555.297,"text":"法官在看內容有沒有調整因為檢疫判決嘛檢疫判決為什麼可以檢疫判決交通事務要檢疫判決啊為什麼交通事務要檢疫判決要交通裁決所因為量很大嘛適用的樣態又單純嘛很快就處理完了如果司法院可以用檢疫判決用AI來降低他們這些核心能力的"},{"start":556.558,"end":566.519,"text":"負擔那你認為檢察官目前在打擊犯罪包括的起訴文書有沒有可能也可以參照這個方式有沒有可能就好了有沒有可能"},{"start":568.274,"end":594.365,"text":"現在已經有少數幾個地檢署就按照這樣那你支持嗎那現在就在這裡了我們看齁那麼你認為在擴增檢察官助理的緣和同時或者說按照你的意思不是檢察官助理因為檢察官助理只能做輔佐他是約聘人力如果是檢察事務官多一點透過考試禁用他可以協助檢察官執行公權力的話"},{"start":595.365,"end":612.467,"text":"那在增加這個不管是哪一種你是不是同時要去檢討全國目前各級機關他運用業務人力的分布及運用狀況需不需要需要需要好那好那就很簡單那結論就兩個第一請應檢討目前各級政府的業務人員分布及運用狀況可以嗎"},{"start":615.518,"end":621.406,"text":"下一個題目因應業務狀況調整及時代改變部份業務運用AI提升效能的評估可行性"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}