{"error":false,"id":["149382"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149382,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149382","日期":"2024-03-06","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-15-3","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":3,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[15],"委員會代碼:str":["內政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-06T10:57:46+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-06T11:09:25+08:00","影片長度":"00:11:39","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172f2bd6fe926d541c4bb97b2be93641c974f8ba9b0039caa7a65f9ce4f0ed6650c55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王美惠","委員發言時間":"10:57:46 - 11:09:25","會議時間":"2024-03-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請大陸委員會主任委員及交通部次長、交通部觀光署署長就「赴陸旅遊團停招：決策過程與後續影響評估」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":776,"blocks":[["王委員美惠：（10時57分）主席，我想請主委跟政次。"],["主席：有請主委以及次長，謝謝。"],["邱主任委員太三：王委員好。"],["王委員美惠：主委、政次，大家好！關於這方面大家都已經說很多了，本席要跟你討論一個問題，你現在說我們在等他們釋出好意，因為長久以來我們都覺得他們在跟我們唱反調，本席在這裡要跟你請教，在這個過程當中，你們還是交通部有宣布我們從3月1日開始就可以招團去大陸玩嗎？來，請回答一下。"],["邱主任委員太三：我們在去年8月舉行的記者會裡面有說我們開放的時間點就是他們開放的時間點，我們在當時有這樣說明，後來有一些業者對交通部提出建議，他們的說法……"],["王委員美惠：是不是換政次來說明？"],["林次長國顯：跟委員報告，我們沒有正式宣布，但是我們有跟業者溝通說可以開始準備。"],["王委員美惠：據本席所瞭解的就是有一些團，說實在的，我們也會考慮到因為景氣差，在這3年的疫情期間，觀光客也難找，大家要招團出去外國，也希望早日可以招團。你們說有可能明年3月1日開始就可以招團去大陸，不過在這個過程當中，因為變化多端，我們也不知道阿共仔要對臺灣怎麼樣，在這幾天有了改變的時候，我們覺得不行，我們常常說我們要去人家家裡玩，可是人家又不歡迎，那當然就是禁了嘛！在這個禁止的過程當中，本席要跟你檢討的是，有旅行業的理事長反映說這個的影響很大，不是我們說禁止就好的。禁止是因為要顧及到臺灣的主權，說來說去也是臺灣的主權啦，在這裡面最嚴重的、可以讓你們說出我們決心不出團去大陸的，是什麼原因？"],["林次長國顯：跟委員報告，主要當初是一個善意啦，我們從8月……"],["王委員美惠：對啦，我們一直有善意、一直有善意，但一定有什麼原因讓你們會突然決定我們不要出團了。"],["林次長國顯：對，所以我剛剛有報告過，今年以來就是有一些相關事件，包含外交上的問題，包含M503，最後就是在2月7號決定了，既然他們一直都沒有善意的回應，原定的開放就只開放3個月，因為旅行業者已經攬客了，我們要降低他們的損失，也要降低民眾的不便，所以這3個月還是如期出團，6月以後的就觀察這段期間的互動，如果大陸那邊有善意回應，我們也可以隨時討論。"],["王委員美惠：所以如果有互動，他們願意開放大陸民眾來我們臺灣的時候，我們也可以隨時調整開放。"],["林次長國顯：沒有錯，政策上是這樣的。"],["王委員美惠：對啦！政次，在這裡本席向你請教一下，M503的改變對我們航道的影響有多大？"],["林次長國顯：跟委員報告，當年在協調M503的時候是說，他們如果要開放南向北跟121、122跟123……"],["王委員美惠：沒有啦，我現在問的是到目前、目前……"],["林次長國顯：……要雙邊協商。"],["王委員美惠：目前！到目前的影響有多大，你說目前的情況就好了。"],["林次長國顯：原來是說北向南要往西偏6海里，目的是說萬一遇到狀況他往西偏，偏航6海里，這樣比較不會偏到我們這邊來，對於我們航班的影響比較小，但是他現在不要偏航，直接恢復到原線上飛，對我們來講就是有不確定的因素會影響到航班……"],["王委員美惠：這樣就比較危險了。"],["林次長國顯：第二個比較重要的是122、123，一個是緊鄰馬祖，一個是緊鄰金門的終端管制區，這個會對我們有不確定的干擾，因為我們這邊是在起飛，而他要降落，所以兩邊要先講好，這個動作應該要先溝通協調，再來發布比較好。"],["王委員美惠：所以次長，本席……"],["林次長國顯：他們1月30號發布，2月1號就實施，這個是太匆促了。"],["王委員美惠：聽了你的解釋，本席也覺得M503這個問題是非常的大，以你們專業的來說，飛機用時速900公里在飛的時候，31秒就超過去了，所以安全性的問題、國安的問題是非常的要緊，所以……"],["林次長國顯：所以一般這種都要先講好。"],["王委員美惠：所以說來說去，你們也是為了臺灣才會做出這樣的政策。有關這個部分，本席在這裡要跟你探討的是，你們已經做出決定了，3月到5月底都可以出團，這都沒問題嘛！"],["林次長國顯：是，沒有問題。"],["王委員美惠：他們也沒有爭議嘛，現在就是他們之前招攬出團的部分，你們知道目前有多少受到影響嗎？"],["林次長國顯：估計3月是1,700團，下個月……"],["王委員美惠：不是啦！政次，我現在要問你的是接下來不能去旅遊的部分啦！"],["林次長國顯：6月1號之後的部分，觀光署有嗎？"],["王委員美惠：你們有統計嗎？請觀光署。"],["周副署長廷彰：報告委員，我們目前初步跟旅行公會統計的資料，3月到5月大概是有4,000團左右……"],["王委員美惠：那個我知道，我是說不能出去的部分，6月之後的……"],["周副署長廷彰：6月的話，其實影響就比較小了。"],["王委員美惠：影響比較小是多少團？我現在要問的是這個！說有影響，1團也是影響、10團也是影響、100團也是影響，到底到目前為止有多少團……"],["周副署長廷彰：報告委員，有三個原因，第一個是3月到5月可以出團，第二個是可以併團到3月到5月，第三個是可以改……"],["王委員美惠：你是把我當成3歲小孩喔，我怎麼會不知道可以併團，我現在要問的就是6月以後不能出去的嘛！"],["周副署長廷彰：因為6月以後的可能還沒有成團啊！"],["王委員美惠：還沒成團的就是沒有被影響到啊！這樣是不是沒有被影響到？沒有成團就是還沒有收錢，還沒有收訂金，那也就是沒有被影響到啊！但是現在講起來不是這樣耶，是現在已經收訂金、有成團的所受到影響的嚴重性，有的旅行社只招攬大陸團而已，並沒有招攬其他的團，現在如果要把他所招攬的大陸團轉介到其他地區旅遊要如何處理，這才是比較嚴重的，如果他們除了有招攬大陸團，還有日本團或其他地區的旅遊團，還可以溝通轉團啊。我現在要請教的是說，未來如果像你這樣說的話，依照你現在所獲得的訊息來看，6月以後是沒有半團了喔！"],["周副署長廷彰：報告委員，現在他們還在處理，就是旅行社這邊我們給他一個彈性，他可以併到3月到5月的出團數，或者是可以改變目的地……"],["王委員美惠：好啦！請問就目前所處理的情形，可以併入5月底之前出團的有多少？"],["周副署長廷彰：剛剛我們跟委員報告的……"],["王委員美惠：四千多團？"],["周副署長廷彰：對，目前掌握的大概是4,000團左右。"],["王委員美惠：沒有併團的呢？以你手邊資料所瞭解的，這個部分有多少？"],["周副署長廷彰：這個部分我們是先調查3月到5月的部分。"],["王委員美惠：喔！我說給你聽，現在的爭點都不是3月到5月，現在都是在說不能出去的啦。政次，本席要跟你討論的是受到影響的部分，因為我們臺灣也需要觀光客來旅遊，像你們今年就訂定了1,200萬人次觀光客來臺灣旅遊的目標嘛，你們訂定的這個目標有包括大陸旅客也不一定，但是你們剛剛說了，就算不包括大陸旅客也可以達標，然而現在的問題是外界都說民進黨「頇顢做代誌」，讓大陸的人不能來，這個才嚴重啦！","政次，你跟我都是領臺灣百姓的錢，不管是哪個黨，在這裡說話都是希望臺灣好，希望來臺的觀光客可以比較多啦。所以本席今天要跟你討論的是沒有出團的部分，到目前的情況，我不是懷疑他們胡亂做然後要來向你們申請補助，我的意思是說，你們要怎麼處理這些沒有併團、沒有在5月底出去但已經收取訂金的部分？你們要怎麼處理，有一個idea嗎？還沒有嗎？沒關係……"],["林次長國顯：我請副署長向你報告一下。"],["王委員美惠：好。"],["周副署長廷彰：跟委員做個說明，3到5月就是我們給旅行社做彈性處理的方案，所以這個部分完全可以出團，沒有什麼訂金上的問題……"],["王委員美惠：我知道！"],["周副署長廷彰：至於6月的部分，為什麼現在還在……因為它是一個變動值，所以我們希望他們能夠併到5月……"],["王委員美惠：主席，麻煩再給我1分鐘的時間，謝謝。"],["周副署長廷彰：它是個變動值，所以我們希望他們能夠調到3月到5月之間的行程，或者是說他們可以改變目的地。"],["王委員美惠：我跟你說，你今天這樣的說明表示你也沒有統計6月到底有多少團，不過你回答我的是到目前完全都沒有啦。我要求你們在會後把資料提供給我，我覺得你們要有一個規劃，不要讓外界說我們的旅行社因為民進黨都要倒了，這樣聽起來真的不好。真的要有作為，不管什麼事情，碰到了就是要解決，但是涉及主權的事情一定要顧好，要對等嘛。不能說我們去人家那裡旅遊，但人家卻不來我們這裡旅遊，不能這樣，所以我覺得你們是有這個氣魄，但是有這個氣魄之下，未來對於這些業者要怎麼去提供幫助才是最重要的。以上。"],["主席：好，謝謝，非常謝謝美惠委員的質詢。所以你看，不分政黨，我們都希望交通部觀光署趕快研議出來，不能夠用這樣子來回應委員，好不好？這是不負責任的態度。謝謝。","繼續我們請李柏毅委員質詢，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":76,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-3","speakers":["高金素梅","徐欣瑩","王美惠","吳琪銘","蘇巧慧","牛煦庭","張宏陸","黃建賓","黃捷","許宇甄","李柏毅","張智倫","丁學忠","麥玉珍","鄭天財Sra 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回應我們也可以隨時討論"},{"start":215.101,"end":220.684,"text":"先說他們有互動他們有願意說開放他們的阿囧愛人來我們台灣的時候我們不一定也是可以隨時、條件開放啊!沒錯!政策上是這樣!對啦!那在這兩名政治本席來請教一下有零三一這個改變對我們的航道應用有多大來?"},{"start":237.23,"end":242.115,"text":"跟委員報告,當年在協調503的時候是說,他如果要開放南向北,跟這個121213,要雙邊協商,他現在我們來是說,這個北向南要往西偏6海里,這目的是說,萬一遇到狀況,"},{"start":261.673,"end":261.933,"text":"王美惠議員"},{"start":286.897,"end":296.942,"text":"這個會跟我們有不確定的干擾因為我們現在是在起飛阿姨要降落所以兩邊要先講好這個動作應該要先溝通協調再來發佈比較好1月30號發佈2月1號的實施這個是太衝突了因為你的解說我們也覺得在503這個問題是非常大因為以你們專業來說我們法定基金98公"},{"start":316.317,"end":317.718,"text":"所以說來說去,也委託台灣可以做出這種政策"},{"start":336.016,"end":340.06,"text":"在這裏面本身要跟你談到的說,決策你已經決策了,在這個3月到5月底都可以出團,這都沒問題嘛,它也沒爭議嘛,現在就是說,跟我去找這裡的,你敢知道目前有多少,應用有多少沒來?"},{"start":357.057,"end":365.324,"text":"我們目前初步跟旅行公會統計的資料那3月到5月大概是有4000團左右"},{"start":384.844,"end":389.166,"text":"6月的話其實影響就比較小了影響比較小是多少團啦我現在是要問說應用一團也應用到10團也應用到18團也應用到是到底到目前為止"},{"start":402.694,"end":404.095,"text":"因為6月以後可能還沒有成團啊"},{"start":425.792,"end":429.637,"text":"這樣是不是沒影響到?沒成團就是沒有酒精、沒有酒精啊!就是歷關都沒影響到啊!感染到現在說起來不是這樣耶!是現在有酒精、有酒團的人"},{"start":441.169,"end":445.553,"text":"但是這個嚴重是有的人專門去找大陸團而已他沒有去找白團啊他現在啦他所找的大陸團要來轉介叫人去報委員時要入獄處理才是嚴重啦他如果去找大陸團、日本團什麼團都可以溝通一下什麼我現在是要向你請教說"},{"start":467.153,"end":475.099,"text":"報告委員因為就是說現在他們還在處理嘛就是旅行社這邊我們給他一個彈性他可以併到這個3月到5月的這個出團數或者是說他是改變這樣什麼地方好啦,我們還沒先處理到六月底要處理的可以變六月底有多少"},{"start":496.162,"end":505.544,"text":"剛剛我們跟委員報告 目前掌握的是大概4000團左右這個部分我們是先調查3月到5月的部分我講給你聽 現在的政典我不是3月到5月 現在都是說不能出去的啦 政治"},{"start":523.288,"end":525.849,"text":"在這方面本身要跟你說的就是因為我們台灣也需要觀光站起來像你們今年一定說一千兩百萬人可以來觀光可以來台灣玩嘛"},{"start":540.037,"end":543.902,"text":"在規定的當中﹐不一定包括大陸﹐也不一定﹐但你剛才說的說﹐我們沒有包括大陸﹐也可以答表﹐現在的問題﹐就是說在外面都說﹐"},{"start":554.997,"end":559.36,"text":"民進黨航班做事,要讓人們大陸的不可以來,這才是嚴重。所以政治,你看,都是捏台灣白色的錢,沒帶一桶的。在這裡說的是希望台灣好,觀光界可以好。"},{"start":578.451,"end":580.232,"text":"所以本事是要跟你說：這個沒出團的家：搞不好一個：我不是發言說他們後來後備做：要來你們申請職：我的意思是說：你們要怎麼去打這個沒評論的：沒在國會堆出去：有條件的：你們要怎麼處理：有一個idea好不好"},{"start":605.862,"end":608.823,"text":"跟委員做個說明就是說3到5月就是我們給這個旅行社做一個彈性處理的一個方案所以這個部分完全可以出團還有什麼這個定金商的問題那6月這個部分為什麼現在還在是它是一個變動值"},{"start":628.47,"end":631.995,"text":"所以我們希望他能夠調到這個3月到5月之間的一個行程那或者是說他可以來改變這個地點"},{"start":643.65,"end":645.272,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":663.951,"end":668.413,"text":"這這樣聽起來真的不好,真的有作為,不管什麼事情,登場就是要改觀,要不然主管的事情,一定要顧,要對等嘛,不能說我們要人家到處走,人家又不要來,人家到處走,"},{"start":683.258,"end":684.319,"text":"王美惠委員"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}