{"error":false,"id":["149394"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149394,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149394","日期":"2024-03-06","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-23-2","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":2,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[23],"委員會代碼:str":["交通委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-06T11:10:25+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-06T11:22:46+08:00","影片長度":"00:12:21","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172f2ab14842937e56b552d2a45619e6d6e6f8ba9b0039caa7a6d2a91ba8bd4818235ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"魯明哲","委員發言時間":"11:10:25 - 11:22:46","會議時間":"2024-03-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部部長王國材列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月4日、6日及7日三天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":620,"blocks":[["魯委員明哲：（11時10分）謝謝主席，有請王部長。"],["主席：請王部長。"],["魯委員明哲：請民航局、機場公司。"],["主席：民航局、機場公司。"],["王部長國材：魯委員好。"],["魯委員明哲：好。很多委員在談桃機塞機這個問題，因為南跑道歲修。其實剛剛我聽了包括部長跟我們機場公司的回答，我個人是完全不滿意，而且沒辦法接受，我相信這是大部分關心這個事件國人的一個態度，為什麼呢？我們絕對可以接受你做一個突發的事情，或者第一次、新的一個業務，你手忙腳亂、你不知道、無法預測，我相信人情義理，大家講道理。這樣的一個異常的管理、新的事項，我們手忙腳亂發生事情，人民雖然不滿，但是希望透過學習改進。","可是跑道歲修這件事情是新的業務嗎？是你們routine例行性的工作，而且離譜到……真的，這次搞成國際性的新聞。民國103年2月也是南跑道歲修封閉一整年，到隔年的1月才開放。桃機公司原本應該是身經百戰，1年的期間每一天飛機讓流量怎麼樣去控制，你們一定有很棒的人才，經歷過這麼大的挑戰，結果到現在，現在發生了什麼事？今天到最後我的感覺就是裝很可愛，抱歉、我不會、我不懂，所以再給我一次機會。憑什麼？憑什麼你們對一個例行性……過去桃機公司是一個整體、是一個法人、是一個團隊，你們團隊完成了這多艱難相關的任務，當年怎麼排除，現在都換新人了嗎？所以楊董跟范總，你們哪一個是交通專業的？你們都不是，兩個都是工程專業的。部長，你用這兩位工程專業的到桃機公司，沒有留一個交通專業，甚至是航管系統出來的人，當時的想法是什麼？"],["王部長國材：他們各個組裡面都有相關……副總也都是各方的專業，的確這一次是桃園機場包括三航廈三跑道的建設，還包括機組設施的強韌，所以也找到他們這方面的專長，現階段是以這個為主。"],["魯委員明哲：OK，在這個事件上面，我們已經看到了很多看得見的危機，剛剛很多委員說過了，包括人民的不滿，包括了很多人請了假，根本沒有辦法順利，尤其是轉機客，影響真的非常非常大。我覺得你們如果閉口不去瞭解或去談可能的補償問題，我覺得可能到最後，你們也會驚慌失措。","再來我想問一下董事長，請問一下3月3號你們施工塞機這個情況發生，這個不管是輿論、事實上有這麼嚴重，你事前有沒有預測到？事前有估算到嗎？"],["楊董事長偉甫：事前確實沒有估算到。"],["魯委員明哲：范總，你事前有預算到、估算到嗎？"],["范總經理孝倫：報告委員，我想我們在過去的經驗，如果是跑道維修可能會產生延誤的這個情形，但是這一次延誤的狀況的確是超過我們的預期。"],["魯委員明哲：剛剛部長其實也提到，你們有很多專業人才，我也認為你們經歷過這麼多次機場的歲修，在歲修的時候該做什麼樣的航管控制、該跟國內的航空公司，甚至國外的機場做什麼樣的聯絡，我怎麼發覺現在有點快要歸零了，你知道嗎？我覺得這個東西是讓我覺得看不見的一個最大的危機，你們董事長、總經理、重要的部門一直在換，我姑且不管你有沒有適才適所，你到了這個位置，你就要把這個事情做好。這事你們編了這麼多的預算，把這個事情弄成這樣，然後居然是事前無法預估的，人民聽到、我聽到，好害怕你知道嗎？","我們認為一群超專業的人在第一線幫我們守住了、顧住了，他們都預算到了，結果現在董事長、總經理說，其實歹勢，沒有算到，當天你感覺跟人民一樣嚇了一跳，你感覺跟坐在機上苦等兩個小時的旅客一樣嚇了一跳，你感覺就好像跟在航空公司盤旋的那些人一樣，怎麼有這麼樣的一個意外呢？所以我覺得這非常非常地不應該。","我真的建議，你剛剛講的應變小組、專案小組，這個事情真的就是要專案小組，現在擺明誰來籌組這個專案小組，你要追蹤進度，你不能用開會，開完會大家解散、航空公司解散，要做不做、進度做到哪裡不知道，航管的回應到底如何，沒有一個長期性的連結。你這個問題，我跟你講，你們裡面的人有說，說真的，這麼多的數據，那一天我試過會有多少航班要下來我們桃機，只有北跑道可以用，這明明是數學就可以算出來的一些問題，居然我們就眼睜睜看著大船往冰山上面撞。","所以我覺得這很不應該啦！未來除了專案小組之外，你們這個還有什麼具體的作為要去做？說一下。"],["楊董事長偉甫：當然，專案小組就是要管控整個從歲修計畫開始一直到歲修計畫結束，流程當中的每一個環節。這個環節在過去的經驗，我們會重新檢視所訂的這些SOP，會把缺少的部分補上來。","第二點，最重要的是對旅客跟航空公司的部分，這一塊在過去的做法，我們發布了飛航通告，對象基本上是專業的對象。對於民眾的這一塊，或者是對於航管預測的這一塊，我們現在缺少這一塊的完整度。這個部分，我們也在繼續檢討當中。"],["魯委員明哲：董事長，事實上，將近10年前南跑道封閉1年，因為當時的溝通，包括飛航的公告、協調花了滿久的時間才能夠慢慢舒緩。你現在去怪航空公司、怪旅客都沒有道理嘛！因為你們大概前十幾天才公告，他們半年前就預備，3個月大概很多票就訂滿了。所以我覺得這個東西，至少三、四個月以前你們就要去發布，要有這樣的一個能力，要這樣去做。","接下來，這個應該是公路總局，我想你們最近開了協調會，同樣找了針對我們道交條例相關罰則、記點，甚至檢舉的一個方式，有做了一些討論。但我們看到後面的一個報導，我發覺好像是在平行線上面討論。那天是司長主持的，也沒有聚焦，你們現在這個微調的案子行政院已經過了嗎？要送來立法院了嗎？"],["王部長國材：禮拜四院會會……"],["魯委員明哲：就明天院會？"],["王部長國材：對，就處罰條例的部分。"],["魯委員明哲：院會如果過了就會來立法院審議，是不是？"],["王部長國材：對，我想到立法院還是可以討論。目前我們是用微罪不記點的這個方向來處理，我想這部分到立法院可以討論。的確在這個過程要找到一個平衡點不容易啦！我們就是從這段時間的民怨，以及我們確保交通安全這兩個事來找到一個平衡點。"],["魯委員明哲：是，我現在看到事實上很多的衝突點，的確啦，我們在道交條例去年6月上路之後，後面發覺可能很多工程面的問題，因為很多的工程面是地方政府大家能不能配合的。很多包括我們取締，它的標準剛開始一不一致等等，包括宣導時間夠不夠。但是現在法令上路了嘛！到現在這個反應，怎麼樣去抓到一個平衡點？","我現在這一張PowerPoint，最主要國外現在很多都在講完整街道的理念，就是這一條道路它應該思考到所有的要使用者，我覺得這是一個非常好而且非常理想的境界。當然目前在臺灣已經落實在很多新的區段徵收區塊，確實這樣去做，我們在這樣的一個完美理念下，現在遇到最大的衝突就是很多的馬路根本連人行道都沒有了，包括省道也一樣，連人行道都沒有，但省道本來是作為全省的通車之用，可是經過了很多的城鎮，它有商業的空間，你也遇到很多的問題，所以這中間怎麼樣去抓一個平衡點。我接到了很多的陳情，很多連人行道都沒有，很多的騎樓也被擋住，包括我們如果沒有開車，都變成行人了，但是我也發覺我們沒有開車有可能也去上班，我們沒有開車有可能是回家過生活，家裡的成員有人要去買菜、有人要去7-11，其實我們每一個人都可能在完整街道上扮演不同的角色。我是覺得現在要調整的方向，現在溝通已經結束了嗎？"],["王部長國材：應該是說明天要送行政院之前的溝通大概是這樣，當然送到立法院後，立法院還可以繼續溝通。"],["魯委員明哲：好。最後我想問一下，去年11月你有特別要求希望地方政府優先盤點、三個月盤點，最好是每100到150公尺有10%的黃線或者停車格，確實人家要下貨或是計程車停靠，總是要讓人家活下去，至少要合理、講理，這部分各個縣市回報的情況、比例如何，能不能說明一下？"],["林司長福山：這個部分我跟委員報告一下，目前各縣市地方政府、尤其六都都在辦理，各縣市辦理的進度不一，我在2月份也有開過一次會議，掌握了進度。剛剛委員所提到的，在禮拜一跟路權團體討論的時候，這個部分大家有共識，交通部會每兩個月邀請兩個縣市，以六都為優先，邀請他們細部盤點每個地方政府辦理的進度。原則上我們是期待各地方政府上半年可以完成，其實分兩個部分，公共會建議的及地方政府自己去盤點的部分，我在2月份開會的時候，基本上大概都有一定的進度在進行處理。"],["魯委員明哲：好，我想細節部分等你們法案送過來的時候，我們再做細部的討論，謝謝。"],["王部長國材：好，謝謝。"],["主席：魯委員發言完畢。現在請游顥委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":348,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-2","speakers":["李昆澤","林國成","廖先翔","黃健豪","林沛祥","陳素月","何欣純","林俊憲","魯明哲","游顥","萬美玲","邱若華","蔡其昌","徐富癸","許智傑","洪孟楷","牛煦庭","鍾佳濱","謝衣鳯","高金素梅","王鴻薇","李柏毅","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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routine例行性的工作"},{"start":82.165,"end":99.887,"text":"而且離譜到真的是搞到國際性的新聞啊民國103年2月份也是難跑到稅休封閉一整年一年到隔年的大概1月才開放"},{"start":101.226,"end":101.746,"text":"拜託給我一次機會"},{"start":123.63,"end":139.775,"text":"為什麼你們對一個類型性過去逃避公司是一個整體是一個法人是一個團隊你們團隊完成了這麼多艱難相關的任務如何當年怎麼排除現在都換新人了嗎所以楊董跟范董你們哪一個是交通專業的你們都不是兩個都是工程專業的"},{"start":144.861,"end":155.233,"text":"那部長你用這兩位工程專業的到淘氣公司沒有留一個交通專業甚至航管這個系統出來的人是當時的想法是什麼"},{"start":156.209,"end":181.023,"text":"沒有,他們的各個組裡面都有這個相關,副總也都是各方的專業那的確這一次是在於這個等於台灣機場包括三航廈三寶道的建設還包括機組設施的強韌所以也找到他們這方面的專長來,現階段是以這個為主OK,在這個事件上面我們已經看到了"},{"start":182.923,"end":210.017,"text":"有很多看得見的危機剛剛很多委員說過了包括人民的一個不滿包括很多人請了假根本沒有辦法順利的尤其轉機客影響真的非常非常大我覺得你們如果說閉口不去了解或去談可能的補償這個問題我覺得可能到最後你們也會驚慌失措再來我想問一下董事長"},{"start":211.828,"end":234.744,"text":"請問一下我們3月3日你們施工塞機這個一個情況發生到這個不管是輿論事實上有這麼嚴重你事前有沒有預測到是事前有估算到嗎事前確實沒有估算到那總經理范總你事前有預算到估算到嗎報告委員我想我們"},{"start":238.57,"end":265.711,"text":"在過去的經驗如果是跑道維修可能會產生有延誤的這個情形但是這一次的延誤的狀況的確是超過我們的預期好剛剛部長其實也提到你們有很多專業人才我也認為說你們經歷過這麼多次的一個機場的一個稅休在稅休的時候該做什麼樣的一個航管控制該跟國內的一個航空公司甚至國外的機場做什麼樣的一個聯絡"},{"start":266.892,"end":288.793,"text":"我怎麼發覺現在有點快要歸零了你知道嗎我覺得這個東西是讓我覺得看不見一個最大的危機你們董事長、總經理重要的部門一直在換我姑且我不管你有沒有事才事所你到這個位置你就要把這個事情把它做好這是你們編這麼多預算"},{"start":290.695,"end":290.715,"text":"委員會議員"},{"start":309.068,"end":325.55,"text":"沒有算到當天你感覺跟人民一樣嚇了一跳你感覺跟坐在機上孤登兩個小時的旅客嚇了一跳你感覺就好像在航空公司盤旋那些人怎麼以這樣的一個意外呢所以我覺得這非常非常的不應該"},{"start":327.452,"end":350.904,"text":"我真的介意你剛剛講的應變小組專案小組啊你真的就是這個事情就是要專案小組現在擺明誰來籌組這個專案小組你要追蹤進度你不能用開會開完會大家解散航空公司解散要做不做進度做到哪裡不知道航管他的回應到底如何沒有一個長期性的一個連結你這個問題我跟你講"},{"start":355.103,"end":376.193,"text":"你們裡面的人有說啊說真的這麼多的數據那一天我施工會有多少航班要下來我們淘機只有北跑道可以用這是明明數學就可以算出來的一些問題居然我們就眼睜睜看了大船往冰山上面撞所以我覺得這很不應該了齁"},{"start":377.93,"end":400.965,"text":"那未來除了專案小組之外你們這個還有什麼具體的一個作為要去做說一下當然專案小組就是要管控整個從稅修計畫開始一直到稅修計畫結束流程當中的每一個環節那這個環節在過去的經驗我們所定的這些SOP我們重新檢視會把缺的部分缺少的部分補上來"},{"start":401.605,"end":425.128,"text":"第2點最重要的是對旅客跟航空公司的部分這一塊在過去的做法我們發布了飛航通告對象基本上是專業的這個對象那對民眾的這一塊或者是對於航管的預測的這一塊我們現在缺少這一塊的完整度那這個部分我們也在繼續宣導當中好董事長這個事實上將近10年前南跑道封閉一年"},{"start":426.169,"end":453.895,"text":"因為當時的溝通包括飛航的公告協調花了蠻久的時間才能夠慢慢舒緩你現在去怪航空公司怪列克都沒有道理嘛因為你們前大概十幾天才公告他們半年前就預備三個月大概票很多就訂滿了所以我覺得這個東西至少3、4個月以前你們就要去發布要有這樣的一個能力要這樣去做"},{"start":455.397,"end":455.678,"text":"接下來應該是公務總局吧"},{"start":461.926,"end":490.233,"text":"我想你們最近開了協調會同樣找了針對我們道交條例相關罰則、祭典甚至檢舉的一個方式有做一些討論但我們看到後面的一個報導我們發覺好像是在平行線上面討論那邊是司長主持也沒有聚焦那你們現在這個案子是微調的案子是不是已經送到"},{"start":491.724,"end":510.889,"text":"行政院過了嗎?要送來立法院了嗎?禮拜四院會就明天?明天院會那院會如果過了就來立法院審議嘛是不是?我想到立法院還是可以討論目前我們是用這個違罪這個不祭典的方式來"},{"start":512.97,"end":513.49,"text":"市長有很多的衝突點的確啦"},{"start":532.625,"end":557.628,"text":"我們在這個道交條例去年6月份上路之後後面發覺很多的可能工程面因為很多工程面是地方政府大家能不能配合的很多的包括我們取締它的標準剛開始一不一致這等等的包括宣導的時間夠不夠但是現在法令上路了嘛到現在這個反應怎麼樣去抓到一個平衡點"},{"start":558.689,"end":559.249,"text":"王國材列席報告"},{"start":589.81,"end":590.43,"text":"李卓人"},{"start":607.406,"end":622.137,"text":"你接到很多一個陳情啦當然行人很多連行人道都沒有走很多的騎樓也被擋住他們我們包括我們我們如果沒有開車都變行人啦但是我也發覺我們沒有開車有可能也去上班"},{"start":623.226,"end":637.739,"text":"我們沒有開車有可能是回家過生活回家過生活要家裡成員有人要去買菜有人要去7-11其實我們每一個人都可能在這個完整街道上扮演不同的角色"},{"start":639.468,"end":654.056,"text":"但是我是覺得你現在要調整的方向現在溝通已經結束了嗎溝通結束沒有應該是說明天要送行政院之前的溝通大概這樣那當然送到立法院還可以繼續溝通好"},{"start":656.497,"end":682.871,"text":"所以我想問一下你去年11月有特別要求希望地方政府優先盤點三個月盤點最好是每100到150公尺有10%的黃線或者停車格確實人家要下貨或者說計程車你總是要讓人家活下去至少要有一個合理要講理那這個部分各個縣市回報的情況比例如何能不能說明一下"},{"start":684.665,"end":712.967,"text":"這個部分我跟委員報告一下目前各縣市地方政府尤其六都都在這個辦理那這個各縣市辦理的這個進度不一那我在這個2月份也有開過一次會議掌握進度那後面的話剛剛這個委員所提到在禮拜一跟陸選團體討論的時候這個部分大家有共識交通部會每兩個月然後邀請兩個縣市以六都為優先來邀請他們西部盤點這個每個地方政府辦理的一個這個進度"},{"start":713.968,"end":713.988,"text":"魯委員"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}