{"error":false,"id":["149400"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149400,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149400","日期":"2024-03-06","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-26-3","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":3,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-06T11:29:27+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-06T11:41:29+08:00","影片長度":"00:12:02","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172f94567e71446705d91e2be856f0c9cef9f8ba9b0039caa7a6a554a5522fe1698e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉建國","委員發言時間":"11:29:27 - 11:41:29","會議時間":"2024-03-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長、外交部、勞動力發展署、衛生福利部、內政部、國家安全局就「我國開放印度移工對本國勞工就業市場之衝擊」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":1028,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（11時29分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：好，有請部長。"],["劉委員建國：部長，楊委員剛剛講的那些事情我覺得他問得不太精確，依主計總處統計，旅宿業是高達5,221人，但業者提供給勞動部的專案職缺人數就只有剩下1,346人，這個落差為什麼會這麼大？是不是勞動部在資格的限定上太過嚴苛？"],["許部長銘春：不嚴苛欸，我們……"],["劉委員建國：不嚴苛，但是你看差了多少。"],["許部長銘春：你看北部的薪資3萬，中南部、東部兩萬八啦。"],["劉委員建國：對啦，你看主計總處統計資料是5,221嘛。"],["許部長銘春：對啊。"],["劉委員建國：對啊。"],["許部長銘春：我的意思是說，你要來用我的那個缺工的協助方案，我們要求業者薪資要達一定的水平才能夠參加我們這個方案，你不能低薪、很低然後又要叫我來幫你找工人，那這……"],["劉委員建國：所以你們有各個面向的審核，之後才去做核定就對了啦？這個缺額是這樣出來的，是不是？"],["許部長銘春：對，部會有……"],["劉委員建國：你這個顯然要跟主計總處溝通嘛，這樣落差，它是以實際上的缺工去把這個數字呈現出來，那你們又用很多的面向去審核，才去做這樣的一個提報，是這樣嘛？核定，是不是這樣？不然這個落差值三千多人，這其一嘛。","其二，你看勞動部在就服機構推介了6,507人的時候，其實專案職缺錄取人數才690人，一成多，所以這邊也要很嚴謹、這邊要更嚴謹，還是這邊……"],["許部長銘春：不是、不是。"],["劉委員建國：不是？"],["許部長銘春：報告，因為我們推介了他不用啦，他挑工啦，他缺工……"],["劉委員建國：你們推薦的他都不用，那你們推薦是有問題。"],["許部長銘春：不是，沒有問題，我們都有找照他開的那個規格條件去幫他找人，可是我們推薦過去他不用，他缺工但是他挑工。"],["劉委員建國：你照他們的規格推薦過去他還不用，他們挑戰你們，業者在缺工情況之下還在挑戰你們？"],["許部長銘春：欸……"],["劉委員建國：沒關係啦，部長，我就把這個數據提供給你做參考，這數據明顯上是有問題的一個現在進行式啦。"],["許部長銘春：數據是……"],["劉委員建國：是不是給我們書面資料，你們到底怎麼做這樣的一個處理方式啦，好不好？"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["劉委員建國：我覺得還是要討論這個啦，開放印度移工，坦白講我真的會持有不同的意見，因為我看你們的報告，等一下把報告拿過來給我一下，我不曉得為什麼現在要去開放印度移工？最主要的原因是什麼，部長簡單說明一下就好。"],["許部長銘春：委員，長久以來社會各界還有包括大院的朝野委員之前都希望我們能夠去開展、尋找新的來源國，因為到目前為止只有4個來源國，有時候這個依賴風險會很大啦，像……"],["劉委員建國：依賴風險嘛，對不對？"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["劉委員建國：因為有依賴這樣的風險，所以就必須要分散風險嘛，你的邏輯是這樣嘛，對不對？"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["劉委員建國：但是目前的移工來源國並沒有缺工啊，目前！"],["許部長銘春：目前的移工來源國並沒有缺工。"],["劉委員建國：對。"],["許部長銘春：目前的來源國當然是可以引進移工啦。"],["劉委員建國：對啦。"],["許部長銘春：但是如果它減少，報告委員，像現在泰國的移工不太進來喔，我們營造業過去都滿倚賴泰國移工，但是真的最近業界跟我們反映不太能夠找得到人。"],["劉委員建國：泰國。"],["許部長銘春：印尼也曾經一度……"],["劉委員建國：印尼，對。"],["許部長銘春：用零負擔的政策也暫停引進，這個都造成……"],["劉委員建國：它是在2020年喊出零付費嘛，對不對？"],["許部長銘春：對，所以這個都對我們的雇主造成高風險，所以我們也必須去多增加來源國來讓這個過度依賴風險能夠降低啦。"],["劉委員建國：對，2020那個零付費要輸入的雇主自行負擔所有的規費嘛，勞動部去跟印尼政府做相關溝通之後才取消嘛，所以它時不時到時候又有什麼狀況，你們又要很費心地去處理這樣事情嘛，所以你必須要去做這樣的分散風險，對不對？"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["劉委員建國：部長，你看現在這個數據顯然沒有在分散風險，怎麼說？4個國家進來，你看外籍的看護、家庭看護工，我們總total是二十萬出頭嘛，那印尼就占了16萬，對照其他3國的比例已經高達79%，我們沒有在做任何的分散調整，這其一，這個數據當然是現在的數據，這個過程5年，因為時間的關係，不然照理講你的報告裡面應該把這個數據給我們做參考，這是其一。","其二，你看製造業的部分四十七萬多，印尼、馬來西亞、菲律賓、泰國，越南又是最高的，占了46%，家庭看護工印尼是最高79%，然後事業面移工、製造業的越南是二十二萬多，占了46%多，這5年的變化怎麼樣，我想我如果還沒看到資料，我可以推敲就是這樣嘛，所以我們讓一個輸入國的勞工比例一直持續居高不下，我們就會製造更大風險的存在，而不是你現在再去輸入一個新進的一個來源國就可以降低風險，這是我的邏輯跟我的思考，你在這個基準面不去做相關的調整，或許會再遇到像印尼那一個零付費的事情再發生一次。"],["許部長銘春：不過問題是這樣，因為基本上就是他要選擇哪個來源國的移工，這是雇主來決定啦，我們其實會尊重雇主的選擇，像雇主他會喜歡印尼移工，他覺得他可能就是比較乖巧，然後比較……"],["劉委員建國：不是啦，我們引進進來、我們要分散風險，然後部長答復我說，是尊重雇主他要聘哪一個國家的移工，我是尊重雇主，但是你的輸入來源是你啟動、開放之後不去做相關各國輸入的移工比例的調整，那你的分散風險基本上就是沒有做到嘛，我要表達是這樣啦，這其一啦。","那其二，你看今天的報告，不管是勞動部、不管是移民署針對逃跑外勞，去年的1月已經來到8萬出頭，今年的1月已經來到85,947，報告裡面從頭到尾沒有提到這個事情怎麼處理，這其一喔；那其二，印度輸出他國的這些移工在他國的逃逸情況是什麼狀況？報告裡面也完全沒有提出。所以你今天要跟我講說，印度的移工進來之後會不會我們明年可能就會突破逃跑外勞達10萬人的這個大關？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，這個其實……"],["劉委員建國：部長，你先聽我講，我今天要去贊成你做這個政策之前，我當然要看到你們相關的資料是讓我們可以安心的、讓我們可以對外說清楚的，對不對？我們今天針對逃跑外勞因為過去疫情的關係種種我都很清楚，因為確實臺灣也缺工的非常嚴重，然後在惡性循環情況之下，每年累積了這麼多人，那現在看到印度的移工進來，那印度的移工在他國的情況、逃跑的比例到底是多高，我們都不清楚，那你現在是要引進他們來衝破10萬大關嗎？你這個要讓我們知道啊，然後勞動部難道只是引進人，然後抓人就是移民署，那移民署也沒有在這個報告裡面特別提到這個事情。"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，這個部分我們再來蒐集相關的資訊，因為我們之前所理解的，其實在世界各國的一個使用狀況，包括逃跑等等，並沒有特別嚴重的狀況，但是剛剛委員講的，我們再來蒐集資訊。"],["劉委員建國：並沒有特別的嚴重狀況，那我要求勞動部提供這個資料給我們，對比印度的移工在他國的情況、逃跑的比例怎麼樣給委員會做參考嘛。"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["劉委員建國：這基本嘛，對不對？"],["許部長銘春：我們來蒐集。"],["劉委員建國：然後另外一個你們在報告裡面又寫的，我覺得寫這個對部長絕對是不好啦，好像在推銷印度的移工有多好，你們很多問題都沒有去討論到嘛，報告中提到印度憲法已經明文禁止印度教的種姓制度歧視問題，事實是沒有錯啦，但是歧視行為是可以透過憲法跟法律明文就可以禁止嗎？你也知道這是不太可能的事情嘛，但是你為什麼報告寫這樣？我也不曉得。","然後進來的基本上絕對是他們最底層的勞動階級嘛，他們進來我相信他們也會珍惜他們的工作機會，我也相信，但是這又牽涉到人權問題，我們長期被國際關注，甚至於美國國務院在2021年的人權報告報告中也特別提到臺灣移工的權利問題，這2年前的事情而已。","那印度移工要引進到臺灣的相關資源系統備齊了嗎？備齊了嗎？有沒有事先的建置作業？因為文化不同、語言不同，而且又在部長你的任內都還沒有開放新的移工來源國的情況之下，這是你當部長這麼久，第一次要做的事情，這些事情都沒有做好相關的評估，甚至應該要建置的前置作業都沒有做之前，你就要做了嗎？"],["許部長銘春：沒有，報告委員，我們現在MOU的簽署，只是大家有合作意向、是初步的，接下來就是會進入實質的討論，包括相關的配套規劃，這些我們都會處理，因為其實從MOU簽署，然後後面的工作層級會議談完，要整個確定以後我們才會正式公告……"],["劉委員建國：今天召委排這個議程，你就要準備非常清楚。"],["許部長銘春：不是，但我現在就是只有MOU啊！就是合作意向，後面的部分都還沒展開，我都還沒有跟他們談完，只是說有一些條件，我們大概將來會去注意，目前我們也在召集相關的專家學者會議，以瞭解印度移工的引進中，哪些面向我們必須要來配套等等，我們現在都是同步在準備當中。"],["劉委員建國：最後，第一個，我剛才提到分散風險的方法、方式，是不是有一個更精準的處理方向；第二個，種姓文化的不同，然後我們的前置作業，包括預估你們要怎麼做；第三個，就是剛剛我特別提到的，就是他們在他國的情況，包括逃逸的比例是怎麼樣，是不是可以提供給我們做參考？以上。"],["許部長銘春：好。謝謝。"],["劉委員建國：謝謝，謝謝召委。"],["主席：謝謝劉建國委員的質詢。接下來我們請林淑芬委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":214,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-3","speakers":["王育敏","蘇清泉","林月琴","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","涂權吉","邱鎮軍","王正旭","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","盧縣一","楊曜","劉建國","林淑芬","謝衣鳯","李彥秀","楊瓊瓔","吳思瑤","洪申翰","游顥","洪孟楷","蔡易餘","羅智強","陳瑩","王鴻薇","陳冠廷"],"page_start":125,"meetingDate":["2024-03-06"],"gazette_id":"1130701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長、外交部、勞動力發展署、衛生福利部、內政部、國家安全局就「我國開放印度\n移工對本國勞工就業市場之衝擊」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130701_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.04596875,"end":15.134093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.927218750000002,"end":16.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.294093750000002,"end":19.184093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.45846875,"end":18.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01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