{"error":false,"id":["149409"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149409,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149409","日期":"2024-03-06","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-23-2","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":2,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[23],"委員會代碼:str":["交通委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-06T11:51:56+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-06T12:05:06+08:00","影片長度":"00:13:10","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172f48f8eadc32c95a2a52d2a45619e6d6e6f8ba9b0039caa7a67f1d54b67cc1d2975ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡其昌","委員發言時間":"11:51:56 - 12:05:06","會議時間":"2024-03-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部部長王國材列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月4日、6日及7日三天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":794,"blocks":[["蔡委員其昌：（11時51分）謝謝主席，請王部長。"],["主席：請王部長。"],["蔡委員其昌：請楊董事長。"],["主席：請楊董事長。"],["王部長國材：蔡委員好。"],["蔡委員其昌：部長好、董事長好。一個早上大概朝野的委員都在桃園機場這次歲修導致塞機的這個事件上面，事實上大家談的我也不再重複啦！但我覺得三件事把它做好，第一個，道歉並研議往後針對這個事件，包括可能嚴重受損的旅客是不是有相關的一些補償的機制，這是第一個。第二個，非常重要的關鍵，歲修不是新聞啦！歲修機場、固定歲修都一定要做嘛！這次歲修會讓董事長跟總經理沒有預估到會導致今天這個情形，我認為這個歲修的SOP一定有問題，不然怎麼可能會這樣？以前怎麼弄，發展到今天的歲修會變成塞機，然後旅客抱怨，然後變成了一個大家覺得不可思議的情形，所以這個歲修SOP機制的檢討，立刻進行可以嗎？這個要多久的時間可以做好？"],["楊董事長偉甫：報告委員，目前已經在進行檢討當中，公司內部的部分在這個禮拜會檢討出來，公司外部的單位在下個禮拜會檢討。"],["蔡委員其昌：這個我想不會需要太多的時間啦！我想兩週到一個月之內，一定要把未來新的歲修SOP到底要怎麼來做，到底你要多久之前公告，因為歲修我們現在就已經知道大概南跑道好了之後，接下來北跑道，那接下來下一次要歲修的點在哪裡，它大概什麼時間、多少錢，因為你的預算一定事先編列了，所以這個其實不要說三個月，我認為可以儘量早半年嘛！因為現在國際都在塞，機票很難訂，像我的經驗來講，我都要提早半年訂，所以你現在必須先讓我知道半年後我要去的機場、我要出發的航班，會不會因為你又有歲修。如果今天是突發的，那沒有辦法，我想國人大家可以接受，但是歲修這樣的事情犯了這個錯誤，這個應該要真的檢討。特別是楊董事長，我覺得你從在政府部門的公務機關，從基層一路上來，過去你在水利署或者經濟部的表現其實我都很肯定，不管從馬總統一路到蔡總統，我對你的表現都是很肯定的，所以你是有能力的人，有能力的人面對這個事情，那就應該更清楚、透明的讓大家知道原因在哪裡以及怎麼做、要怎麼解決，不要再讓這個事情發生，我想你去桃機公司，這個就是你首要的工作。","最後一個就是我剛剛講的，你的SOP出來之後，你才有消費者預警機制的建立，其實預警機制的建立大家都在講要公告，公告我不反對，但其實目標客戶（TA）很清楚，目標客戶都在航空公司跟旅行社，也就是你的預警機制裡面怎麼直接把可能要搭飛機的人，你的關鍵就在於航空公司跟旅行社之間，怎麼快速讓他知道說你買這一班飛機有可能會遇到歲修，甚至我告訴你，你買這班飛機就會遇到歲修，所以你有可能會被延誤2小時、延誤3小時，因此航空公司從賣票開始該不該賣，他就先提醒消費者，那不該賣的票就不該賣，反正這一班你一定會延遲超過12個小時，那這一班還要賣嗎？第二個，如果這個會延遲1、2個小時，你有預警機制讓消費者事先知道，我相信消費者他會選擇這個航班，他就已經知道會有遇到歲修的情形，所以他的那個感受，就是他的不爽程度自然會下降，因為我已經告訴你這一班會比較慢喔！你會受到影響喔！轉機也是一樣嘛！所以消費者預警機制的建立，我想這個其實是很重要的，不要再犯這種對我來講叫做有一點低級的錯誤，這個是非常重要的事情。","第二個事情，大家都在談機場的排行，雖然我已經8年的時間沒有在交通委員會，但事實上這個是common sense，也就是每一個調查單位對於每一個機場的排名，其實它都有它的量化指標，有些指標我們可以達成，那有些排行看起來數字不好，譬如說13名掉到82名，這個看起來數字就非常糟糕。那我們也知道，這個這個排名其實主要都還是在消費者他的滿意度的調查，當然我也可以接受疫情哪有消費者會對桃園機場滿意的，我想大家都很不滿意，包括我在內，但是這個就是疫情嘛！所以我們應該針對像這種讓臺灣很難看的數字，我認為桃機公司應該要把它在今年……因為今年現在才3月嘛！到12月我們還有很大的努力空間，我們都知道它的重點是什麼，所以就針對它的重點改善。我常常在講，任何的評鑑都是一樣啦！立法院也是一樣，立法院也有民間NGO團體在評鑑每一個立委，那每一個評鑑它的公告都會公告它的準則，譬如有一些人特別重視量化，你來質詢幾次、你提案通過幾個，但是質詢的內容有些不在乎，就是你上臺鬼扯它也沒有關係，這個就是量化嘛！所以一樣的道理，機場的排名也是一樣，但是不管怎麼樣，它有排名就一定有指標，而這個指標不管怎麼樣，總是我們能做好所有的指標都是高分，這個對臺灣的形象很好嘛！對機場公司的績效也好嘛！所以不管哪一個排名，有些排名剛剛部長講，那個叫做BusinessFinancing……"],["王部長國材：BusinessFinancing是第9名。"],["蔡委員其昌：第9名嘛！那另外就有八十幾名的嘛！不管怎樣，它一定有一些指標我們是輸的嘛！是不好的嘛！所以就要針對它的指標來改。董事長，現在是82，明年再回到六十幾有沒有辦法？"],["楊董事長偉甫：我們努力的目標不只有這樣子，事實上我去年到公司來以後，部長就有特別交代，這個是機場公司今年的工作重點。"],["蔡委員其昌：那抓一個目標，想要第幾名？"],["楊董事長偉甫：我們至少要進到前50名，第一階段。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，非常好，這個是一個很有guts的說法，儘量啦！衝到比較前面啦！這很漏氣，不太好看，我們曾經是13名，所以換言之，以前的滿意度曾經到達13嘛！當然疫情是一個因素，那扣掉疫情，是不是我們就真的能夠再回到13，這個是一個你要努力的方向。"],["楊董事長偉甫：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：另外，部長，我也想借這個機會談機場，有關臺中機場，我想過去這8年當中，雖然我沒有來交通委員會質詢，但你為了臺中機場，我們也多次開會，甚至民航局也幾乎每一年都要去我辦公室好幾次，所以我想借這個機會也跟部長討論一下，針對臺中機場，在2040年整體規劃裡有提到，第一點，就是機場從目前的一年369萬人次到2040年的目標是500萬人次。要達到500萬人次，基本上一樣，就是要先前做好準備，所以2040年的整體規劃其實也是要為了這個目標做準備。","這些其實我都支持，我們過去針對2040年目標、甚至接下來四、五年的目標也都參與討論，但是有幾點我還是要提醒。第一，長期來看，未來因應500萬人次以上、甚至目標我的期待可能就是1,000萬人次嘛！那T3──不是桃園的T3，是臺中的T3就要提早進行規劃。但是事實上我們都知道，圖這邊有。部長也都很清楚，過去十幾年來，我就一直對機場的規劃意見很大，因為我們老是把機場Terminal 1、Terminal 2縮在這個小小的角落，後面陽西區更大，只是這個圖沒有顯示陽西區，而我們老是在這一小塊裡打轉。我們知道旁邊就是漢翔，所以有一點非常有趣，也就是臺中機場會呈現一個非常小塊的Terminal 1、Terminal 2，接下來的區域則大概是這裡的30倍或50倍，可能要畫到牆壁外面才畫得進來，那叫陽西區。我過去就一直提議可不可以往裡面移，但客觀因素、主觀因素很多，包括空軍意見一大堆，當時我問漢翔可不可以讓一些土地，它也不肯，這些都是過去的限制。好！現在我們要做2040年的計畫，不！是已經做了2040年的計畫，所以我會希望Terminal 3的位置千萬不要再跟Terminal 1、Terminal 2擠了啦！也就是說，我們要將Terminal 3的位置再往西移一點。時間還很久啦！2040年的計畫耶！還有十幾年啦！所以應該及早把計畫走出來。當然不需要到我剛剛講的四、五十公頃那麼大的土地，但是以Terminal 3往西移作為規劃應該可以好好思考。對於未來臺中機場從三百多萬人次變成五百多萬人次，以及我希望目標達到1,000萬人次，Terminal 3勢在必行，你們也規劃了，但是我覺得位置的配比上要重新來過。"],["王部長國材：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：在短期計畫裡，部長，去年我也找你談過。我們一起努力，也拜訪了航空公司，針對臺中國際機場航班、航點的問題，我們努力爭取的結果，看起來長榮集團跟華航集團因為飛機的問題沒有辦法短期增加，但至少我們爭取了星宇，3月底就要在臺中增加航點，直飛峴港、直飛澳門，所以我們再繼續努力啦！"],["王部長國材：好。"],["蔡委員其昌：至少臺中機場過去績效也很好，包含飛Okinawa、也就是飛琉球，中部人、我們臺中人一直很希望能直飛日本。這不是單要求交通部啦！也要航空公司飛有飛機、租有飛機、又願意配合。但我希望在行政上交通部全力促成，積極地協調國航幾家航空公司，讓臺中機場航線、航點、航班都能增加，好不好？"],["王部長國材：好。"],["蔡委員其昌：可以吧！"],["王部長國材：我向委員報告，過去談到包括星宇，他們會增加臺中，我們上次也特別找他們來談。事實上，蔡委員對於T3有前瞻性看法，但也的確受軍方限制很大。"],["蔡委員其昌：沒錯。"],["王部長國材：我們對第三航廈的確已經有初步計畫了，針對這部分，我會請民航局再跟蔡委員討論。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，主要是位置的調整啦！"],["王部長國材：對。"],["蔡委員其昌：計畫我知道啦！但是對於位置的調整，部長可能要做個決定。"],["王部長國材：對，調整以後讓2040年更有未來性，這個方向我請他們再跟您討論。"],["蔡委員其昌：好。","短線上讓臺中機場更活絡這點也很重要喔！"],["王部長國材：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，我們繼續努力啦！"],["王部長國材：好，謝謝。"],["主席：蔡委員發言完畢。","請徐富癸委員發言。徐委員發言完畢之後處理臨時提案。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":348,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-2","speakers":["李昆澤","林國成","廖先翔","黃健豪","林沛祥","陳素月","何欣純","林俊憲","魯明哲","游顥","萬美玲","邱若華","蔡其昌","徐富癸","許智傑","洪孟楷","牛煦庭","鍾佳濱","謝衣鳯","高金素梅","王鴻薇","李柏毅","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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sense也就是每一個調查單位他對每一個機場的排名其實他都有他的量化的指標啦那有些指標我們可以達成那有些排行看起來數字不好嘛比如說這個13名調到82名這個看起來數字就非常糟糕"},{"start":307.775,"end":326.188,"text":"我們也知道這個排名其實主要都還是在消費者他的滿意度的調查當然我也可以接受疫情哪有消費者會對桃園機場滿意的我想大家都很不滿意包括我在內但是這個就是疫情所以我們應該針對像這種讓台灣很難看的這種數字"},{"start":331.107,"end":353.733,"text":"我認為淘汰公司應該要把它在今年因為今年現在才3月到12月我們還有很大的努力空間我們都知道它的重點是什麼所以把它的針對它的重點改善雖然這個我常常在講這個任何的評鑑都是一樣的立法院也是一樣立法院也有這個民間NGO團體在評鑑每一個立委"},{"start":355.58,"end":370.147,"text":"每一個評鑑他的公告都會公告他的準則嘛比如說有一些人特別重視量化你來質詢幾次你提案通過幾個但是質詢的內容有些不在乎啊就是你上台鬼扯他也沒有關係"},{"start":371.42,"end":397.167,"text":"那這個就是量化嘛所以一樣的道理機場的排名也是一樣但是不管怎麼樣他有排名他就一定有指標而這個指標不管怎麼樣總是我們能做好所有的指標都是高分這個對台灣的形象很好嘛對機場公司的績效也好嘛所以不管哪一個排名啦有些排名剛剛部長講那個叫做什麼Business Financial"},{"start":397.327,"end":398.228,"text":"總統現在是82明年再回到60幾有沒有辦法?"},{"start":418.674,"end":428.779,"text":"我們努力的目標不只有這樣子事實上我去年到公司來以後部長就特別交代這個是機場公司今年的工作重點我們是朝進到前50名第一階段"},{"start":435.242,"end":453.361,"text":"很有價值的說法,盡量啦,衝到前面啦,這很漏氣,這不好看我們曾經13名,所以換言之以前的滿意度曾經到達13嘛那當然疫情是一個因素,那扣掉疫情是不是我們就真的能夠再回到13這個是一個你要努力的方向啦"},{"start":454.762,"end":476.241,"text":"另外部長我也想藉這個機會談機場這個臺中機場我想過去這8年當中雖然我沒有來交通委員會質詢但你為了臺中機場我們也多次開會甚至民防局也常常幾乎每一年都要去我辦公室好幾次所以我想藉這個機會也跟部長討論一下這個臺中機場在這個"},{"start":484.217,"end":493.873,"text":"2040年的整體規劃裡面我們有去提到第一個就是機場從目前的一年369萬人次到2040年目標是500萬人次"},{"start":498.089,"end":522.389,"text":"那500萬人次基本上他就要一樣嘛就是要先前做好準備所以2040年的2040年的整體規劃其實也是為了這個目標要去做準備那這個其實我都支持我們過去也都針對40年目標甚至接下來45年的目標我們都有參與討論但是有幾點我還是要提醒第一個長期來看長期來看"},{"start":524.871,"end":537.065,"text":"未來因應500萬人次以上甚至目標可能我的期待就是1000萬人次那T3不是桃園的T3是台中的T3"},{"start":540.774,"end":559.943,"text":"這個這個這個要提早去進行規劃那但是事實上我們都知道吼那個圖這邊有吼部長你也都很清楚我過去啊十幾年來我就一直為這個這個機場的這個規劃我其實意見都一直很大吼因為我們老是把機場terminal1 terminal2縮在這個小小的這個角落"},{"start":560.623,"end":560.723,"text":"臺中機場臺中機場"},{"start":583.183,"end":602.611,"text":"大概30倍或50倍啦就是吼這個可能要畫到牆壁外面才可以畫的進來那個叫楊溪區所以我過去就一直提議說可不可以往裡面移啦但客觀因素主觀因素很多包括空軍啊意見一大堆當時我叫漢強可不可以讓一些土地他也不肯"},{"start":603.491,"end":615.185,"text":"這些都是過去的限制好現在我們要做2040年的計劃已經做了2040年的計劃所以我會希望terminal3的位置千萬不要再跟1跟2去擠了啦"},{"start":616.516,"end":635.909,"text":"也就是說我們要將Terminal 3的位置再往西一點時間還很久啦2040年的計畫呢還十幾年啦所以應該要及早把這個計畫走出來啦當然不需要到我剛剛講的那四五十多多大的土地但是"},{"start":636.843,"end":646.774,"text":"把Terminal 3往西移來以他做一個規劃這個應該可以好好的來思考未來台中機場從500萬300多變500多目標我希望達到1000萬人次"},{"start":651.567,"end":669.233,"text":"這個Terminal 3勢在必行你們也規劃了但是我覺得位置恐怕位置的配比上要重新來過那短期計畫裡面我想部長去年我也找你談過我們一起努力也拜訪了航空公司就是台中國際機場航班"},{"start":672.213,"end":672.733,"text":"蔡其昌 蔡其昌 蔡其昌"},{"start":698.105,"end":718.222,"text":"主席時間到了所以我們再繼續努力啦 把至少台中基地 譬如過去過去這個西校也很好飛沖繩飛琉球然後中部人一直期待我們台中人很希望可以直飛日本那這些東西"},{"start":719.443,"end":723.928,"text":"我希望行政上交通部全力來促成然後積極的協調這個國航的幾個航空公司讓台中機場這個航線、航點、航班都能夠增加"},{"start":739.463,"end":741.824,"text":"蔡委員對於T3的確有一個前瞻性的看法,但她的確受驚慌限制擔當。"},{"start":760.573,"end":773.06,"text":"現在的確我們第三行下已經有一個初步的計畫了我想這部分我請民行局這邊再跟蔡委員在討論主要是位置的調整啦計畫我知道啦位置的調整這個調整以後讓他"},{"start":776.381,"end":776.501,"text":"蔡委員"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}